Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-14 00:00:00

off, the cost of cartage may h

if by any scans the e,

carrying such lac

body---either carter or timb3r merchant. Practical men
tell me that a reduction of th 3 Carriar,res would throw them
out one fifth on timber, and on deals from one-fith 'to one-
sixth. —I am, yours truly always, QUINTON 'FLEMING.
"Liverpool, sth April, 1859,
83, Jordan-street, Queen's Dock."

" P.S. They tell me also, and it seems reason-able, that if
reduced in size of loads, they will, in order to do the same
ged to put on an extra number of
3 quantity of traffic in the streets ;
es were narrowed, the risk of the
upsetting of the load would be great." .

and so increase th

The timber trade is carried on iii the extremities of the town.
there was no danger to life in streets where this trade was
conducted, and if they would, by the adoption of this act,
injure the commerce "in this one branch of commerce to the
extent of £5,000, it would be. a serious matter to the whole
trade. The act was obtained for reasons threefold. First,
for the protection of the pavement; secondly, for the
facilitating traffic ; and thirdly, for the protection of the
public. With regard to the first, he would say that it was
a small matter compared with the trade of the port ; but
even the paving of the town cost less than was paid for any
other of equal importance in the kingdom. He did not care
to see smaller vehicles through the town, nor could he see

how the traffic would be increased. In reference to the
third, he did not place much reliance in it, as he could not
believe that the public could be better protected. He would
tell them that the cart-owners were now engaged in getting
a bill to repeal the act obtained by the council, and that

they had a large amount of public sympathy. He had seen
no less than 300 signatures attached in one day to the
petition that lay in the Exchange News-room. He would
state that the promoters of the bill would be very glad to
agree with the corporation in making its own bye-laws
on the snbiect, so as to have the matter favourable to both
parties. He concluded by moving the confirmation of the

report

Mr. Gladstone said,,eight members were present at the last
meeting of the committee. The chairman was one of them.
Four voted in favour of the report, and four against it, and
the chairman - gave the casting vote. Therefore, so far as
the high-flown terms of the report were concerned, which,
in his opinion were neither warranted by the evidence nor
the circumstances, they seemed, he thought, to have come
to a somewhat wretched termination. He was sorry that
the matter had been mooted, for various reasons, among
others, because it created a serious cause of difference
between two great public:bodied. For, if the evidence was
worth anything at all---andhe was not quite prepared to say
that it was---it was worth so much as to prove that the great
cause of wear and tear in the streets in the immediate vicinity
of the docks, arose to a very considerable degree from the
want of cranes and other machinery, so as to afford proper
facilities for the loading of carts. Therefore, on that
ground, he contended that this was in reality a dock affair.
The ratepayers had put the streets in good order, and paved
them with durable materials; and they were now called
upon to pay an extra charge, because the trade of the port
was conducted in vehicles which, in their form and structure,
were a disgrace to any civilised country. It was fortunate
for other places that no town in the kingdom could be found
where such a barbarous system exists as that which was
practised in Liverpool. One or two witnesses were called
before the committee with reference to Manchester. He had
since made it his business to inspect the vehicles in
Manchester; and never was there an attempt in more
glaring colours to put forward a fallacy than that to
which lie had listened in that chamber, when the council
were informed that they had condemned a plan
which had been approved of elsewhere, and in Manchester
in particular. But first of all, he should state that, on con-
sulting the report presented to the members of the council, he
found, from what causes he was unable to state, that it was
not a verbatim report of the proceedings of the committee.
He never, in the whole course of his experience, whilst he
admitted the highest respectability of the parties, their
perfect claim to every privilege which municipality could
afford them, and their title to consideration to all circum-
stances—he never met so many members of the community
who appeared to him to understand so little of their own
business. He spoke within the bounds of truth when
he said, they had not the evidence of a prac-
tical man before them. Mr. Fleming was obliged to
speak from information which he gained from others of his
own business. Though he was a carrier, he was unable to
give him (Mr. Gladstone) any reply such as he would con-
sider necessary. He would allude to another of the parties,
of whom he should endeavour to speak gratefully, because
he was not present. He was a gentleman whom he recol-
lected as having distinguished himself in youth
by his wonderful rapidity in the process of
arriving at arithmetical calculations. He had lost sight
of him, and the world had lost sight_of him, until he was
brought before them to give evidence on this matter. He
really thought, when Mr. Noakes was brought before them,
they should have something that they could lay hold
of.. Mr. Noakes was a carter of Liverpool: Mr. Noakes

did give some information, which was 'entirely and also
somewhat amusing. When he was asked a question
in reference to the dish wheels, he said
he was in favour of the dished wheels, and
that in this he was supported by Mr. Brunell. Mr.

Brunel
made g

many others, he had
and, certainly, if common sense had a

was a clever man, but,

right to decide anything, there never was a more erroneous
statement than that. What -a highly important piece of
information it would be to those who admired that brutal
practice, which he deemed it, but which was commonly
called the " noble art of self-defence," that a man standing

in the shape of an S, or of a shepherd's crook, is in an
infinitely stronger position to take the assault or defence of
his opponent than if he was in an upright, position. This,
no doubt, was the sort of principle that was defended here.
Could anything be more absurd than attempt to say that
the leaning out of the

tower, or anything el!

perpendicular

N wakes,

lough a con-

sicierable cart-owner, appeared to him to be very indifferently
informed about his own affairs. His abilities and talents
of former days, in reference to arithmetic, seemed to have
left him altogether. His (Mr. Gladstone's) memory served

him perfectly well as to what took place. He asked Mr.
Noakes how Many carts and waggons he had ? Mr. Noakes
said he did not 1-- He asked him if he did not know
And after some conversation he

snow.
what property he had
said he thought by

had about seven or eight-and-twenty.
He put some other questions as to how many spring and
other vehicles he had; and be answered them in an equally
oblivious and confused manner, and Mr. Noakes was the
the prime, the great source of information in reference to
' these carts. He did not wonder at Mr. Chaves with-
holding any observations on this point, as they would be
quite unworthy of him. Mr. Noakes, amongst others
who were in favour of the dish-wheel—which was
one cause of the extra width of these floats—did
not employ the dish-wheel himself, only to some extent.
He ascertained that Mr. Noakes had got five floats, and
three of the five were made as nearly as possible upon the
perpendicular principle, so that although Mr. Noakes came
before the committee contending for the dish-wheel, he for
the most part made use of those constructed on the
opposite pnnciple. In the course of his evidence, Mr.
Noakes had stated, but he thought he had forgotton it,
that the float would not be a cheaper mode
of conveyance to the merchant than the waggon, yet, if they
Looked to the evidence, they would find that he afterwards
contr4dicted that statement. In regard to the want of
cranes, this was one cause of the difaottity in. loading