Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-07-29 00:00:00

SELECT VESTRY.

The fortrightly !nesting of the Select Vestry was held
at ten o'clock yesterday, in the parish r,ffims, Brownlow-
hill The Rev. Rector Campbell presided, and the follow-
ing members were in attendance : Messrs. Woodruff,
Shaw, Syers, Syred, Williams, Craw!ord, Denton, WhiLby,
W. Jones, Jackson, Cook, Taylor, Chesney, Owen, Bair-
stow, Critchlay, Hand, Mellor, erellin, Lnff, Smith.

WORKHOUSE COMM ETTER.

The minutes of this committee were read. It appeared
that the number admitted last week into the vagrant sh. ds
was 262 males, 26 females, and 38 children; in all 396.
The number of sick casos in the hospital on th r 22nd inst.
was 490, including 23 fiver and 17 itch. The total num-
ber in the house on the 22nd inst. was 1813. The proceed-
ings also contained a resolution relative to Mr. Lyster,
one of the medical officers of the house, to the effect thl,t
Mr. Lyster, having used insulting language to the Governor,
was called upon by the committee to apologise, and Mr
Lyster having refused to make any apology, the committee
recommended that he be forthwith dismissed.

'the following letter upon the subject was read from Mr.
Lyster

Ts) TIIE CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE SELECr VESTRY OF

THE PARlili OF LIVERPOOL.
Gentlemen,—As a resolution Lona the Work!louse Commit-
tee will come before you to-morrow, recommending toy dismis-
sal, in consequence of having refused to apologise to Mr. Carr,
for insulting language I was represented to have used towards
him, I feel bound, in justice to myself, to lay before you the
following brief statement : —On Tuesday. the liith instant, I
visited the wards at the usual hour, and found that the
" pages" (the paper on which the diet and medicines are pre-
scribed by the medical officer) had not been made, out for the
patients newly admitted, nor had those scut to the d
office the prio ding evening been returned. Wi trout them, of
course, I could not satisfactorily proceed with the business of
the wards ; I Vier, fere thought it my duty to inquire at the
Governor's office the cane of such omissions, and addressed
myself to kr. Evans, one of the clerks for that purpose. Mr.
Carr, however, replied, and in the most abrupt and uncourtc-
ous manner told me it was my provliice to attend to the duties
of the hospital clerk during his illness—an illness of which I
had nut b_fo•o been aware. As, however, I knew his duties to
be very arduous, occupying, in fact, many hours of the day, and
as I had less time than usu el at my disposal, owing to the ab-
sence of my senior medical officer, I at once refused to under-
take a responsibility so remote from my usual avocations; but
I can most positively affirm that, in doing so, I used no Jan •
guage which could be considered insulting. The following
day, however, I was summoned before the committee, arid, to
my surprise, accused of insulting Mr. Carr ; and, although I
denied having done so, the committee, without hearing any
evidence upon the subject, or confronting me with Mr. Carr,
passed a resolution, calling upon me to apologise. Of course,
under such circumstances, I declined to do so ; upon which I
was summarily suspended.
Trusting, gentlemen, that the foregoing impartial statement
of facts will fitly justify my conduct, I Lave the honour to be
your most obedient servant, C. E. LYSTER.
20, Roscommon-street, July 27th, 1857.

Mr. SHAW, in moving the confirmation of the proceed-
,ings, said he was sorry Mr. Lyster had thought proper
to send such a letter to the Board, for it could not only be
refuted but proved to be altogether incorrect in many
particulars. The chief reason Mr. Lyster was called upon
to do the duties, was from the absence of Dr. Gee, and
Mrt Taylor, the Hospital Clerk. Mr. Lyster positively
refused to do the duties, although they would have occupied
him bat a very short time. With r-gird to his language
and demeanour to the Governor, he (Mr. Shaw) could
produce evidence which would probably satisfy the Board
upon that point. He had a letter from Mr. Burden, re.
cently appointed a clerk in the governor's office ; and when
he told the Board that during six years which Mr. Burden
had passed in the army, he had by his own good conduct
raised himself from private to that of quarter-master, the
Board could judge how far his statement was deserving
of their credence.

Mr BAIRSTOW protested against the letter being read, as
the evidence of Mr. Burden had not been taken in the
presence of Mr. Lyster.
Mr. LUFF : The evidence ought to have been taken in
his presence.

Mr. Slaw said the reason it was not so done was be-
cause the demeanour of Mr. Lyster before tie committee,
and the manner in which he spoke of the governor, quite
justified the committee in not calling any evidence what-
ever, particularly as a great portion of the evidence must
have been from inmates of the house. He (kir. Shaw)
had requested Mr. Burden to send him a note of what took
place at the time. The govamoz did not see the letter
until a day or two since when he (Mr. Shaw) showed it to
him.
The CHAIRMAN did not see how the Board could discuss
the matter there, unless they doubted the decision of the
Workhouse Committee, and wished to have the proceedings
referred back.
Mr. JACKSON thonzht,as the discussion had been opened
at all, they ought to go into the whole of it now.
Mr. SHAW conceived he had a perfect right to bring
forward Mr. Burden's letter, in order to justify the
committee in their proceedings. As Mr. Lyster's letter
had been read, he did not see why the other should not be
read.

Mr. WOODRUFF thought the committee had acted very
properly, under the circumstances, and that the matter
ought not to be gone into again by the Board.
Mr. Owlet( said a charge had been made by Mr. Lyster
that the committee did not perform their duty, and it was
therefore right that a letter should be read which would
justify them.
The CIIAIRIUN said it struck him that Mr. Lyster did
not call for a re-hearing at all, but merely stated that his
conduct was fully justified.

Mr. WOODRUFF-: He is satisfied with himself.
Mr. MINTON : And wo are satisfied with ourselves.

Mr. CaELLIN said when Mr. Lyater came beige the
Workhouse Committee, he made use of very intemperate
lauguaga to that committee.
Mr. SHAW said the course he should aflopt was simply
to move the confirmation of the proceedinge, and it would
then be open to any member of the Boaid to move that
they b 3 referred back.
Mr. D&NTON Seconded the motion.

Mr. BAIRSTOW moved as an amendment, that Mr.
Lyster be not dismissed. The reason he did so was this
Mr. Lyster some time since felt his situation in that
house so unpleasant to himself, that he was called uoon,
at least he felt himself called up)n, to resign his offi2e,
somewhere in the beginninc, of the present month. That
resolution was accepte,l, and the Beard advertised for a
new medical officer. Under these circumstances, seeing
that Mr. Lyster would in fact cease to bs an officer of the
house, he thought the vestry ought to be content with
accepting his resignation- Some allowance should be
made for the strong language be had used, and the Boatd
ought to be a little generous in not dism'ssing him, inas-
much as his dismissal from their employment would pre-
vent him from holding a situation under the Poor-Jaw
Beard again, without having the whole thing raked up
andre;nvestigatea.

Mr. WHITBY seeon 7el the amendment.
The CHAIRMAN : You merely want to avoid the act of
diemisFal ?

Mr. BAIRSTOW : Precisely so.

Some discussion hrvic•g taken
Mr. Sniw replied, and in doing so, took occasion to
read the ftiloring is ter, to which he had pev'onsly made
reference :

Workhouse, 17th July, 1857.

Sir,---The Governor, in.showing mo an entry in his j)iti nal
relating to Dr. Lyster, has intimated a wish that I would state
to you my impressions as to the conduct of Dr. Lyster towards
him personally.
I can only say that, looking u;o3n the Governor as responsi-
ble for the proper performance of the medical officers' duties,
and on Dr. Lyster as being, to a certain extent, under his
control, he (Dr. L.) is, in my humble opinion, greatly blame,-.-
ble; inasmuch, .as in my presence, and that of two or three
inmates of tho house, ho addressed the Governor in disrespectful
and even coarse terms, declining to fulfil a duty which devolved
upon him in the absence of Dr. Gee, although the Governor
repeatedly urged his willingness to render him every assistance.
So far fi.onl.Mr. Carr having provoked Dr. Lyster, or acted
on ungentlemanly part, I think ho showed a great deal of for-
bearance, and never lost his temper, as D.. Lyster unfortunately
did.—l am, sir, your obedient servant, G. BURDEN.
C. W. Show, Esq.

A division finally took place, when the amendment was
lost, and the original motion carried by a large majority.

INDUSTRIAL scriooLs' COMMITTEE.

Mr. W. Jotcss, in moving that the proceedings of this
Committee bs confirmed, said the Board would have per-
ceived by the minutes that the practice had been in use
in the schools some nine or twelve months, that the whole
of the children at meals should join in saying grace by
chanting. The Rev. Mr. Doyle, Roman Catholic priest,
objected to the chanting, and the Committee thought it
very irregular that he, not being one of the officers of the
institution, should, without communicating with the
Committee, or any cf the officers of the schools, order the
children under his influence to dis )bey an established
regulation of the schools. He wished to connect that
instance, which was a very important one, with the general
conduct of the children, both in the schools, and when
they obtained situ itions from the schools. He might say
that the whole of the Committee felt that there was an
under-current of insubordina►ion throughout the whole
of the schools. There was not a week—not a meeting of
the Committee, at which there was not to be taken into
consideration some act of insubordination—gross insubor-
dination—on the part of the children towards
their superior officers there. The Board would perceive
by the proceedings read that morning, that a boy, who

could not have been above twelve years of age, made use
of the most foul language to one of the masters, and ran
for a brickbat to throw at him. Po it was with the whole
school. There were very g eat difficulties thrown in the
way of the Committee. The Committee endeavoured, year
of er year, to discharge their duties, and make the schools
as efficient as possible without troubling the Board any
more than they could possihly avoid. The consequence
was that the procerdiuge generally loused over at that
Beard wuhont much ,obiervation, but now thins had
reached a point e hen he thou& the special attention of
the whole B Yitz,l was required. Scarcely a boy or girl
went fr en the schools jet° a situation, whe did not either
abscond from the situation, or ant in such a way as to
cause the master or mistress to send them away. What
could be the cause of this ? There muse ha so nothing
very defective either in the industrial training or the moral
education of the children., The plan of operations seemed
to be perfect. There was a resident Protestant chaplain.
There was an abundance of schoolmasters and mistresses
for educational an industrial training.. He was afraid
that nearly three-fourths of the children sent out from that
establishment found their way back to the workhouse, or else
to something worse. He could see himself very great (wile
arising out of the discussions which hal taken place in
the committe3, from time to time, in reference to the
religious denominations of the chiel:en. Ha could Bea
very great mischief indeed arising to the children, as
far as regarded the spirit of insubordination, from having
the upper servants of the schools from time to time
brought up, whether at tha instance of the Roman
Catholic priest, or of any body else, made no difference, to
have their conduct investigated, the very witnesses against
them being the children themselves. He thought the
time had come when some steps must be taken to have
the discipline of the schools preservel, and the respect
which was due to the officers maintained. He felt sure
that the Bitted, when it came to know the circumstance!,
would assist the committee in putting down the causes
which led to such painful investigations. (Heat, hear.)
Mr. °wax did net like to hear such a statement as .111 r.
Turner's go forth, although he agreed with much of it.
Hehhotght there was great exaggeration in it. There was
no doubt much room for improvement in the schools, but
he could not think the evil had gone so far, that three-
fourths of the children who left the schools, were either
gent back to the workhouse, or to a worse place. He thought
it would have been well, if before making such
statement, Mr. Turner had moved for returns. With
regard to the chaunting, he WAS not going to defend Bir.
Doyle, but still he thought the statement made by gr.
Jones, ought to have been more strictly correct. He did
not stop a ceremony which had been in use 9 or 12 months.
It was a new thing, and Mr. Doyle told some of the
children not to join in the ehaunting, which the Poor
Law Board did not recrgnise, but simply ordered grace to be
said by the governor, or some one app tinted by him. ge
thought it would be better to adopt the rule of the Poor
Law Board. He did not at all agree with Mr. Jones that
there was scarcely a bey leaving the sch tor, who did net
abscond from his situation. There was much to be com-
plained of no doubt, but when they considered the number
who came back, as compared with the number in the
schools, he thought the statement made would appear veil
far from correct. . (Hear.) Ms y did abscond, but still S
great many remained and did well. Although the schools
had been in some respects a failure, he did not think the
case was quite so bad as had been stated by Mr. Jones'
(Hear.)
Mr. Bairstow did not look on the schools with the
same gloomy feelings as Mr Jones appears to have ; that
some of the children would not turn out very well, OA
only to be reasonably expected.
Mr. JONES.—I moved for returns and I could not get
them.
Mr. B tiesrow thought the Board should remember that
the children were for the most part drawn from the very
lowest dregs of society, and io expect that they should
tnrn out well was expecting quite too much. The com-
mittee sent a number of children to Price's patent candle
works, and they received an exceedingly g and report froni
the chaplain ef those works as to the conduct of those
children. Not a good report of their conduct when they
got thole first—(loud laughter)—but after they had been
there sum- time. There was a great deal of talk about
religious instruction at the schools In his opinion, 1-1
they had less of such religious instruction as was given
there, and more of good sound moral training, it would be
all the better for the children. (Hear, hear ) Whether
their heads were filled with religion or not, their moral
principles appeared sadly defective. (Hear, hear) Frem
the report of the chaplain to the candle works, it did not
appear that they had much moral principle. What
their religious principles were, he shoul I leave to the Pro'
testant chaplain and the Catholic priest to explain. Mr'
Bairstoe then stated that at the meeting of the Board, four
weeks ago, he stated he had reason ti believe that the Bet
Mr. Holme had been holding private communication with
members of the committee, In reference to those remarkos
he had received the following letter from Mr. Holme.—
And with that list (one obtained front the schoolmasier)•
went to the Workhouse on the morning of the 21'h ultimo,
where I met Mr. Cali- and Mr. Denton accidentally. From
Mr. Cirr I olitaned the permisaion I sought, and had my list
complied -.salt the accounts kept at the Werkli use. During,
the course of my making the application to Mr. Carr in the
presence of Mr. Denton, in answer to questions, I gave some
few explanations which were in accordance with the facts I
have given in this report, and which, I suppose, were in pert
.the cause of the remarks made by Mr. Denton, at the last
vestry meeting. I feel it a duty to offer the committee this,
my assurance, that I lava not been to, or communicated with
any tut ether of Use Select Vestry on this sulij,•ct privately ; n"
have I:said anything to Mr. Denton reflecting on the proceed-
ings of the committee, for I assured hint the committee were
blameless in the matter. If the committee, then, twelve this
assurance, I think no one of them will be more ready to set
me right with the public than the gentleman who, through Wig"
understanding, or throt“ii bein; misled, represented me ie
terms so injurious to nay repwation, if the newspaper reports ei
the last v,:stry meeting be terra t.
Most certainly Mr. Denton made some remarks at the
time, which led him and other gentlemen to imagine
that
Mr. Helene had communicated privately with him, but he
was now happy to read Mr. Helme's letter, and to exonerate
hint from the charge.
Mr DCNTON said Mr. Holrae's letter was perfectly true.
M,. WOODRUFF said he excezdingly regretted to hear
the statement made by Mr. Jones. If that was the state
of things, after a series of years spent in .he management
of the r choels, after the thousands of pounds which had been
drawn from the pockets of the ratepayers for the improve'
ment of the moral and religious character of the children,
he could only say that the money had been shamefully
wested, and the time of the Boani misapplied. (Hear,
hear.) Mr. Jones stated that he had moved for returns
and never got them. Who had placed any obstacle in the
way of those returns being produced ? Where was the
officer who neglected his duty, and prevented the return,'
from being produced ?
Mr. JONES : He is no more.
Mr. WOODRUFF said if he was no more, Mr. Jones ought
to have renewed motion, and some one who was in
existence would have taken good care that the return,"
were placed in his hands, in order that a prompt remedy
might be found for se grievious and crying an evil'
(Hear, hear) The remarks of Mr. Jones seemed to
intimate the source of the evil, but Mr. Jones did not speak
out. He appeared to intimate that there was an under-
current of insubordination through the Roman Catholic
priest and the Roman Catholic children of the schools'
Now he (Mr Woodruff) would always desire that there
should be bold and plain speaking, and not insinuation;
( gear, hear.) Did the priest exceed his duty, and demand
more than the law permitted him or not ? Was he
asking concessions for the children which the laws of the
land prohibited him from receiving ? If he was not, and
the Committee refused to grant whet the law allowed him
to demand, then the Committee was in the wrong, and
not ho. (Hear, hear) The Committee ought not to per"
m7t Mr. Doyle, on the one hand to tamper with the
children, nor Mr. Holme on the other hand, but there,
ought to be distinct regulations and orders laid down, and
whether priest, minister, or schoolmaster prevented the
orders from being carri'd out, let him be instantaneously
dismissed. (Hear, hear ) Let them commence With
authority from the fountain head. Let them lay down
clear and distinct regulations, and the first person who
violated them, let him be dismissed. (Hear, hear.)
The subject was then, after a short conversation,
allowed to drop, and the proceedings of the Committee
were confirmed. •
FINANCIAL COMMITTED.

Mr. WOODRUFF in moving the proceedings, referred t°,
the withdrawal of the bill for exempting literary and
scientific institation6fr,m rating. That, he observed, was
not the only instance where prompt action had secured to
the ratepayers of Liverpool, the advantage of having a blu
obnoxious to their interests rejected by the House of
Commons. This ought to instil into their minds, that 00
every occasion where their interests were attacked, if theY
took the same prompt action, the same results would follovi•
(Cheers.) Ho also stated that as regarded the dispute
between the Poor law Board and the Vestry, touching the
appointment of collectors, the Vestry still coleidered,
that the law had placed the authority in their hands, and
they were determined not to give it. up. (Cheers.)
The Vestry then proceeded to elect a collector. T#lo
candidates, Mr. Storey, and Mr. Thompson, had been
selected for recommendation by the Finance Committee.
A vote was taken, and Mr. Thompson was elected., -
The proceedings of the committee were confirmed.
Mr. ORITCHLEY gave notice that' at the next meeting he
would move for the appointment of a Select Committee, to
inquire into the insubordination and irregularity of the
schools.
The Board then adjourned.