Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-11-26 00:00:00

official capacity. his fifth proposition was that they
should hand over the money to the Churchwardek is who
sucigteded them, and not care at all ho ,v the I resent
ClAurchwardens disposed of it. Mr. Carne also of Ajected
to. that proposition.
Mr. Came : Nay:nay.

The Chairman So I under: tood you.
Mr. Came: Say then only that you understooi 1 so, I
4eny it.
The chairman was perfectly willing to qualify i tin that
way. He understood, in a conversation he had v :Rh Mr.
Carne upon the subject, that he objected to that course.
If Mr. Came agreed to it, he could tell the corns aittee so
presently. It would be now for the meeting. ha ving con-
sidered all these different modes and proposals for a
settlement, to decide what should be the course selected.
When the meeting recollected that the churchwardens
had received notices that as soon as they paid a way 61 of
the money, actions would be commenced against them,
they would see that Mr. Carne and himself wee e justified
beingin cautious as to the course they shat uld adopt.
They might have their private opinions as to tt) 3 probable
issue of such actions, but they would have. at least to
defend them up to a certain stage, and, al thouch the
result might be against Mr. Liversidge and I its friends,
and might saddle them with the taxed costs, still every
one was aware that in any case a considerable amount of
legal expense must fall upon parties defendin an action.
It was not right that Mr. Carrie and himse tf, who had
already given much time and trouble, and undt rgone much
persoaal inconvenience, ,hould be placed in Eat .h a position
as to have to pay the coats out of their own poe 'sets. tinder
these circumstances, he hoped- the comer &tee would
think him justified in taking some steps to elieve them-
selves of the responsibility.
Mr. Carne remarked that there was one pole t upon which
the Chairman did not appear to have la id sufficient
stress. It was this, that when the Chairmax and he came
into office a fresh resolution was passed as regarded the
mode in which the voluntary rate should be disbursed for
the future. They came into office with a balance, but
after that balance had been appropriated tt the pullpose
for which it was intended, a certain ri solution was
Passed, proposed, he believed, by Mr. Will mer, as to the
mode in which the fund should be thereafter conducted.
It would be found that in that resolution not one word'
was said about any payment to the Parlian tentary Water
Committee.

Mr. Hart: The resolution you speak of 'a as passed the
year before you came into office, and it vo; is proposed by
Mr. John Smith. Mr. Hart read the res olution, which
was as follows :

"It was moved by Mr. John Smith. a ?oondeci by Mr.
M'Knight, and resolved :—That the fol lowing be the
primary object of attention on the p; ,rt of the equitable
rating committee now appointed : Fir st, to secure justice
to all classes of the parishioners, t )y enforcing by any
lawful means the due valuation and t rating of all property
that ought to contribute to the parochial burthens.'
Secondly, to watch all local and general applications to
parliament that may affect the into Tests of the parish;
to promote such enactmen's as a re calculated to be
beneficial, and to oppose any that ma iy appear prejudicial.
Thirdly, to'afford assistance to such, public objects and
such persons as the parish is inter !sled in assisting on
clearly public grounds, but for wb ictt purposes the law
has not provided funds; any grant ce: money, however,
not being authorised until a majority o f two-thirds of the
committee present, when duly conven ed, has recorded a
vote in favour of entering upon the subject connected
with it."

Mr. Carne said, after such a re •solution as that he
considered that the committee were bound to see that the
money afterwards collected was applied only to the
purposes specified there. Whilst he was chairman, a
resolution was passed that the thing should be re-opened,
and the claimants heard again upen the subject. He
did not think any committee which ever sat paid more
attention to a sul.;ject and were more careful in endeavour-
ins., to do justice. They found an immense number of
claims, and allowed many or them tehich perhaps ought
not to have been allowed. They alltewed a sum of 4100
for interest. In payments they ma de to the claimants,
out of the balance previou,ly in hand, amounted to
within £32 of the original demand, s.nd it was then agreed
that there should be an end of the claim, because the
claimants had been quarrelling erelong themselves, and
called for interest at 20 per cent. ;Aid 30 per cent.; and it
was therefore resolved that no payment should be made
unless a receipt were given in full of all claims, with a
declaration that they would not agitate the question either
directly or indirectly for the future. Now, he would ask
the meeting how any Committee could have taken greater
safeguards than they did is that respect ? It might have
been wrong of them to pay anything at all. In that they
wore more to blame perhaps than in anything else, but
they did it on the ground that there was a balance
collected before the passing of Mr. Smith's resolution out
of which to pay it. But he maintained that after that
resolution had placed the thing upon a new footing, with
a new Committee and a new collection altogether, they
were now bound -to abide by that resolution altoother.
With regard to the Committee, he had always been of
opinion it was still existing, although he had much doubt
whether, from the wording of the resolution, Mr. Hutchi-
son and himself were clearly entitled to hold office. It
was a doubtful point even to the lawyers themselves,
because the resolution did not meption whether they were
to hold their seats upon the committee, by virtue of their
office. He had been always of opinion that the committee
were the parties to dispose of the money. He considered
himself as a trustee for the money, and that the committee
were trustees ; and he could on no consideration be
induced to consent to pay money over again, for which
they had already got a receipt in full. No resolution of
any committee, however constitutcd, authorising him to
sign such a cheque, could make him do it. Nothing but an
action in a court ofjust ice, decided against him on that
point, could induce him to consent to such a course. lie
would ask thorn who, in a court of justice, having a
receipt in full o' all claims, would be compelled to pay
them over again ?

Mr. MlClight : I believe I threatened you with an
action if you paid any of the money away, and expressed
a vory strong opinion upon it ?
Mr. Came : You did, and hall-a.dozen others, Mr.
M`Kni4ht. Referring to the resolution proposed by Mr.
Higham at the meeting of parishioners, Mr. Carne
reminder) the committee that Rector Campbell declared
he could not receive a resolution directing a further pay-
ment out of the funds, but could only receive a recotn-
m mdation to the voluntary rate committee to that effect.
With regard to the differences of opinion between himself
and his friend, he was sorry to see the fund so long lying
useless, but the churchwardens at present in office, acting
under the advice of their lawyers, refused to take charge
of it. Mr. Hutchison and himself therefore continued as
trustees for the proper management of it. He was always
willing to sign a cheque for anything the committee
decided upon, recognising that they had the power to
appropriate the money, excepting it was an order to pay
over the money to the parliamentary water committee,
which he considered illegal. So long as the c-immittee
acted up to the resolution passed by the General Vestry as
to the manner of appropriating the money, ho considered
himself bound to sign the cheques, and was willing to do
so !He set Mr. Liversidge and all hii friends at defiance.
A man must, at some time or other, run some risks.
Although he could not at all afford to pay Money out of
his own pocket, yet, he was willing to run some risk
in (vier to have some good done with the

money. As a trustee, he had a right to consider
whether he wa; acting legally- or not. If the committee
considered that the present churchwardens were entitled
to receive the money. and, if the latter would take tho
charge of it, he thought they would be quite exonerated
in law, because the churchwardens were naturally the
custodians of it after Mr. Hutchison and himself. He had
always refused to give Mr. Liversidge any ground for
hoping to get any more, and ho really thought that, having
received within £32 of the original claim, there could be
hardly any grouud for a claim now of £520.
Mr. Denton said he believed the present churchwardens
had no objection to receive the money if they got an in-
demnity. '

The Chairman said he had forgotten to mention that a
ew months ago a meeting of the Voluntary sate Com-
..

mittee was held in that room, at which his name was very
freely introduced ; at which Mr. Carne was present and
he was not. It resulted in Mr M`Knight's movin*that
the Rev. Rector Campbell, the Vestry Clerk, and Mr.
Came accompany him (Mr. Hutchison) to Mr. Lowndes'
office, and lav oefore that gentleman a fell statement of
the business for his professional opinion, and that they
bo instructed to act upon that opinion. The opinion
of Mr. Lowncle3 he had thtere in writing, although the
interview then proposed did not take place, for

Campbell, Mr. Carne, and Mr. Hart did not c -me to him.
Mr. Lowndes' opinion with regard to the payment was
this—" J hive received your note, and I think you take a
very correct view of your position as to the voluntary
rate fund ; and that it would be impolitic of you to
disr_lse of it in piecemeal, as proposed by your late
colleague, Mr. Carne."
Mr. Hart : You went for his legal opinion; .yon did not
go for his opinion as a m itter of policy.
The Chairman : But if it be impolitic, I shall not do an
impolitic act if I know it.
Mr. Jackson, in order to bring the question to a conclu-
sion, proposed the following resolution:—
" That a public meeting be convened of the contributors
to the voluntary rate for the year 1853-4 only, by repeated
advertisements in all the local papers, for the purpose of
electing a Committee to dispossl of tip funds in hand, is
in accordance with the specifi.d purposes for which the
rate was contributed."
Mr. Denton seconded the motion ; and asked the Chair-
man what couriw he was prepared to take in the event of
it being carried.

The Chairman said he would be ready to hand the
money over, so far as he was concerned, to who-nsoever
the meeting of contributors should appoint, absolutely,
and without enquiring how they disp )sed or it.
Mr. Carne said he should not oppose having the money
paid over, but he desired to give this caution—that, in the
event of any portion of it being subsequently disbursed to
any gentleman who had already given a receipt in full of
all claims, he and his friends might deem it necessary to
take legal proceedings.
The question was then put, when there appeared— •
For the resolution : The Chairman, Mr. Jackson, and
Mr. McKnight. Against : Messrs. Luff and Molynenx.
Mr. Carus declined to vote. The motion was therefore
declared carried"' This concluded the proc,eedings., .