Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-08-06 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL.

The monthly meeting of the Council was held at eleven
o'clock yesterdly, in the New Concert-room, S. George's-
hall. The Mayor, FRANCIS SHAND. Ecq., prezided.
The minutes of the last Council meeting having been
lead,

Mr WOIDRUFF said, as there probably would be an
adjournment of the Council at a very early hour, he should,
if it was not out of order, like to ask whether the Mayor,
as the chairmen of the Parliamentary Committee, was
prepared to make any report regarding the proceedings in
London ? If it was out of order, he would not press the
'abject.
The MAYOR : I believe it is quite out of order. There
is a telegraphic message, just received from one of the
"members of the Council, recommending very strongly that
no debate upon the subject be entered into at the present
moment.

ThR telegraphic communication was then handed to Ifir
Woodruff, who, having read it, said, " V.3ry well, sir, I
shall not press the quostion." (Hear, hear.)

VACANCY TN RODNRY-STREET WARD.

The DEPUTY Towel-CLERK declared, according to the
usual form, that a vacancy has taken place in Rodney-
street Ware, in consequence of the disqua ification of Mr.
Thomas Fleming. The usual resolution was accordingly
drawn up, declaring the seat void.
Mr BRANCREEt said : Before that resolution is confirmed,
I think, as one of the colleagues of Mr. Fleming, I
should not be discharging the duty which I owe to the
Council, the public, and that gentleman himself, if I were
not to take this occasion cf expressing the regret which I
feel at the nnfo:tunate circumstances which have occa-
sioned this vaea,cy. I hye not had many opportunities
of jtriging of the mole in which Mr. Fleming discharged
his duties in his capacity of a member of committee; but
still I have every reason to suppose, from the information
I have received, that be discharged them satisfactorily.
'There is, however, one subject upon which I am perfectly
competent to speak, and to which I wish especially to
refer. it shows qualities which adorn a man more than any
punctual discharge of &Wes. The Council may perhaps
recollect that some three years since, in consequence of a
very severe winter, it became necessary to have a collection in
the different wards for the relief of ihe poor. I wish to bear
my testimony to the invaluable services of Mr. Fleming
on that occasion in the Rodney-street ward. Mr. Fleming
was the treasurer of the ward. He gave up his time con-
stantly to the duties. He kept the accounts, and he kept
them in so excellent a manner that owing to his econo-
mical raanagemenr, that we not only relieved all who
called for relief, but at the same time to hind over, in
case such cirnrilS'aeces might again arise, a considerable
sum of money. I wish to bear that testimony of respect,
and at the same time to testify my own personal regret for
Mr Flemings loss (Hear, hear.)

Mr. TOBIN : There 'is no one here who will not admit
the valuable qualifications which Mr. Fleming possessed
for being a member of this Council All who sat with
him in this Council and on the ommittees, will bear wit-
ness that there was no member of this Council who dig-
charged the duties of his office with greater assiduity, and
with a more fearless and independent spirit. I can also
testify that no one was more open to the calls of charity,
or more generously responded to them. lam quite sure
that in the misfortune which has fallen upon him, he
will have the sympathy, not only cf every member of this
Council, but of the community of Liverpool at large.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. PICTON said that he might be perm;tted to say a
few words on the subject, having had as much to do with
Mr. Fleming as any gentleman in the room. Mr: Fleming,
was vice-chairman of the Library and Museum Committee,
of which he (Mr. Piston) had the honour to be chairman,
and he might say that it was to the attention, assiduity,
and the deep interest which Mr. Fleming took in the wel-
fare of the institut;on, to vay large measure of its success
was owing. His keowle:lge of all matters relative to the
insti ution was very great, and ha (:fir. Picton) did not
know, in fact, how they would b 3 able to supply his place.
His courtesy of demeanour and gent' -manly feeling con-
stituted him an agreeable associate in the conduct of
public business, and he (Mr. Picton) most deeply regretted
the circumstances which led to Mr. Fleming's retirement.
(Hear, bear.)
The MaYOR observed that such an occurrence was at all
times a matter of deep reg,et to the Council, bat, as was
evidenced by the remarks of the several members who had
spoken, it was particularly so in the case of Mr. Fleming.
(Hear, heir.)

FINANCE COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee contained the
following recommendations :—" To appoint Mr. Robert D.
Kay Inward Cashier at the Town Dues Office, at the salary
of £2OO per annum, in the room of Mr. Daniel Brade,
deceased, whose salary was £250 per annum." "To grant
a salary of 400 per annum to John Lightburn, as
Cppyiro. Clerk in the Magistrates' Clarks' (Mies " "To
appoint Mr. George Jones as Outward Book-keeper at the
Town Dues effi !A at the selary of 30s. per week, in -the
place of Mc. R. D Kay, whose salary was £125 per
annum." That the discretion given bv, and contained
in the A.'t of ' 7 Wm. IV., and 1 Vic , c. 19,' should at the
next Sessions be exercised by the Recorder.
Mr. Huou Heuese moved the appointment of
Mr. Kay.
Mr. Alderman Hotein seconded the motion.
Mr A. C. STEW tRT s.ai.l ha had heard, that four years
ago Mr. Kay was inward computer, and was removed on
account of incapacity. He bAieved it was a rule laid
down that unless there was some good reason to the con-
trary, the cler:,s should be promoted according to seniority.
He believed Mr. Burgess, the junior cashier, was a very
competent man, but Mr. Kay was ,taken from the lower
station and placed (a er his head. Ho Lelieval Mr. Kay
was the oldest servant, but at the same time he had been
found incapable for a subordinate situation four years azo.
He was also told that since the death of Mr. Brarle, Mr.
Kay had been performing the duties, and that already
several mistakes bad been made. He therefore moved
that the subject be referred back for further consieeraticn.
[During the reedit g of the proceedirg4, his Worship, the
Mayor, left the chair, for the purpose of wailing upon her
Majesty the Queen of the Netherlands. The chair was
taken in his ab:once by Mc. Alderman Parker.]
The Comex:tie se a member of the Tcwn Dues' Com-
mittee, thought Mr Stewart ought to be a little mere cor-
rect as to his fat's, which ware all hearsay. The whale
subject had been fully considered by, the coremit,ee with
the Receiver of Town Dues. Mr. Stewart was quite wrong
in many of his points.
Mr. B. CKWI trt seconded Mr. Stewart's amendment.
Mr. HORN BY said he knew nothing whatever of the indi-
vidual, and he believed thst no member of the committee
had any interest in promo lug Mr. Kay more than any other
man. It was obvious that in any department such as that
of the Town Dues, it was exceedingly cesirable that the
gentleman at its head should give his recommendation a.
to the promotion of the clerks under him. He was most
likely to know who was the beet su:ted, and his recom-
mend etion had been followed in the present instance.
After some further conversation the amendment was
lost by twenty-two to thirteen. The motion wee then
confirmed.
Mr HOP NEY moved that £9O salary be wanted to John
Lightbourn, as set forth in the recommendation
Mr. WOODRUFF inquired, how that additional appoint-
ment was rendered necessary.
Mr. Stale explained that there was a treat deal of
copying for the magistrates' office cone ont of doors, which
had to be paid fr, and the magistrates conceive 1 that
expense as well as time would be saved by the arrange-
ment now proposed.
Afser some remarks from Mr. APerman Parker, Mr.
Hodson, Mr. Kitchen, and Mc. Anderson, the rccom-
mendatien was confirmed.
Mr. 11-ensey proposed that Mr. George Jones be
appointed ou,ward book-keeper of the town dues office,
at a salary of 30s. per week, in the room 4f Mr. Kay.
Horate seconded the motion, which was confirmed
v/ORNBY moved the resolution empowering the Re-
- Mr. tie
old a second court cf quarter sessivns. He
- corder to st, -essary that the Council should pass that
said it was
-r te ant horise the Recorder to have a
resolution, in e.oense of the eecoed cou-t was about
second court. The e__ ••9 saving of time and expense also
eighteen guiuerts ; bu-ts -9
te, t indeed Accordingly the
to the podie was verye eb.
.
;on that the Council would
Finance Committee
were
do well in giving that
discretion of
op it,, 'he Recorder.
mr. Alderman sceetion to 4._ -notion, which was
it ma seconded the e
adopted. •
" the general
Mr. HORNET' then moved fie-confirmation ek enything
proceedings. Ha was not /tears that there' was e -f the
which required particnler mates; but if .4,7 therm Jr ld
Council wished for informaticn upon an;;:tztject; it &et,
be readily afforded.
Mc. Alderman H0L313, in serondina trio motion, atid lie
was sure the Council must rej.:ic4 to- have Mr.' Here_ by
again as e' airman of the Finance Cernmi4ea whose atten-
tion to the duties cf his offi lent., had
befn always so saisfactoryce
'toanthdo -6-c-unr seiLL'4 'Ckes of
"Hear, heir.")
lair. WOODRUFF begged leave to
time since the Burial Board put a question. So.
applied
mittse to know whether the to the Finance C 3112.
sell a portion of the N committee was prepared to
what expense. As
the
sweham Hou.e Estate, and, if so, at
their annual meeting in A Burial Board would have to hold
"they should know as soonu as gu,a, it was vary important that
have the land. po,.sible whether they cou/d
Mr. Alderman Hor.sc said the Fina
very anxious to have the opinion of Mr.ace Committee were
members who had been almost constantly Stewart and othe/.
the
Let sin weeks,
upon
in London for
pon the limey Consume
7 Bill,

There had been adjournments on two occasions in conse
quence of that reason. Generally speaking, he would say
that, in the abstract, there was no objection whatever to
appropriating part of the estate to the purposes of a
cemetery, if it should be considered advisable, and the
position suitable ; but at the same time a question in-
volving the sale of so large an amount of land, and
involving likewise the making of roads, getting access to
the remainder of the land, and establishing drainage, ren-
dered it advisable to have Mr. Stewart and other gentle
men present who could give very important information.
As soon as the Mersey Conservancy Bill released some
gentlemen who could give their attention to the subject,
it would be one of the very first questions which would be
taken into consideration by the Finance Committee. ~
Mr. HODsoir asked if the Burial Board thought the place
mentioned was far enough out (. f town.
MR. Area Rotate : —We can discuss that question here-
after.
Mn. WOIDR.TFF paid the Burial Board were not pledged
to that site, but it was ore amongst a number cf others
which were under consideration.
Me noezrersorr begged to ask whether the parliament-
ary committee were prepared to make any report regarding
the Mersey Conservancy Bill.
MR WOODRUFFR said i( Ma ROB!RTSON had been in the
room at the time he would have heard that question put
and answered before.
MR. ROBF.P.TSN said he was not in the room at the time.
They had all heard of ncg ,ciations going on in London,
and they had also heard of amateur nepciators in Lon-
don who cemrnunicated with the newspapers, (hear, hear,)
but ae regarded the majority cf the members of the Council
they had 'had for the last three or four months the silent
system imposed upon them. He, for one, felt extremely
awkward at having his constituents constantly asking him
what was bring dine, and he having continually to tell
them that he knew no more about the matter than they
did. (hear, hear ).
Mr. Ptcros said, by the latest advices from London it
appeared—and it wet the opinion of those to whose hands
the Council had confided the coaduci., of that very important
business—that at present the Council would not be at all
furthering the great object which they all had at heart by
entering into any 'discussion upon the subject. Under
these circumstances, he felt that it would be very advisable
that the Council should adjourn after they had transacted
whatever business was immediately necessary. He hoped,
at the same time, that no basinese would be brought for-
ward which was likely to give rise to any difference of
opinion in regard to the Conservancy Bill. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman Hoeme said a telegraphic message had
been just received from London by him. It was a corfi-
dential one, but he hoped the. Council would have sufficient
confidenee in him to ag •ee to what he was about to propose.
(Hear, hear.) He would suggest that there should be no
farther discEssion whatever, but if it was necessary for the
Dock C !mmit:ee's proceedings to pass, let them pass, and
let the C,uncil then adjourn. (Hear, hear.)
The proceedings were then confirmed.
DOCK COMMITTEE,

On the c etclnsion of the Finance Committee's pro-
ceedings, and while the dock proceedings were Ming read,
Mr. Alderman Holme, Mr. Charles Turner, and other lead-
ing members of the Council were observed in animated
conversation. Mr. Alderman Holme suddenly left the
circle, and in an audible tone said, " I see there's a storm
brewing—l'll be no party to it."
Mr. Alderman Borals then addressed the Deputy-
Mayor, and said :—The reading of the Dock Committee's
Proceedings will cause great incoevenience, and it is abso-
lutely necessary that we now adjourn. I, therefore, move
that the Council now adjourn.
Mr, lircawrra seconded the motion.
Mr. Cu CROSS TURNER : I beg to oppose that proposition.
The proceedings of the Dock Commit'ee to-day contain
the nominati m and election of four members of the
Council to be members of the Deck Committee, in the
room of Mr. Thomas Robinson, Mr. Thomas Chil-
ton, Mr. Thomas Darnley Anderson, and myself,
whose term of office has expired. If there is to be
any opposition to the election of any of these
gentlemen, it of course will prevent them from taking any
part in further proceedings until the question is decided.
If there is an opinion in this Council that none of these
gentlemen are fit to be sent down as your representatives
to the Dock Committee, the sooner that is settled the
better. I think the motion that has been made by Mr.
Alderman Holme is, under the circumstances, far more
likely to produce an unpleasant discussion than to allay
it. It is quire impossible that it can be otherwise. I
myself am going our, and if there is any objection on the
part of the majority of the Council to my re-election, I at
once accede to it. I have endeavoured to do my duty
to the best of my ability—to protect the interests of the
town on the one s'de, and of the trade of the port on the
other; and if there is to be any discussion on my conduct,
let ns have it at once. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HORNE"( : Mr. Turner is in error, if he supposes that
if we do not re-elect these four gentlemen to-day, they
will (leave to have any business to perform at the Dock
Committee. They are for all purposes members of the
Dock Committee until their succe'sors are appointed.
There is no reason whatever why these geatlemen should
not continue to act until the council meets again, which is
is proposed they shall do at an early day, It is exceed-
ingly desirable that no remarks should be made widi
reference to the affairs pending in London at present, and
it is therefore most desirable, in every consideration, that
the Council should now adjourn. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. Meerut,: One word if you please. If lan.
to understand there is an -objection to my re-election,
because there can be no other reason for the adjournment,
I beg to state that until the Council meets again, I shall
take no part either in the Dock Committee's proceedings
or in any other proceedings If it is the opinion of the
Council that I, in my individual or official capacity, have
deserved that my election should be postponed, I shall con-
sider it a mark of censure from the majority of this Council
(cries of " Hear, hear," "No, no," and confusiou)—and
I certainly, for one, shall take no steps whatever until the
Council has deci :ed that question. I beg to say that is
the position I must teke, and I beg that the question may
at once be decided, aye or no. (Confusion )
Here the uproar became very great, nearly all the
members of the Council standing up and• endeavouring to
obtain a hearing.
Mr. A. C. Stewart : It halt been moved and seconded
that the Council adjourn —why is not that put? If Mr.
Turner make a personal matter of it, are we to be driven
from our propriety by such a threat? (Hear, hear, and
uproar
Mr. Piero: I confess that I have heard, with very
great astonishment, after what has been stated by Mr.
Turner, Mr. hereby, and other gentlemen, that it was
most desirable, on the present occasion, to avoid
anything that could lead to a difference of opinion, that
difference of opinion on the suseicion of one brought for-
ward by Mr. Turner himself. (Elea!, hear, and "no, no.")
Why has Mr. Turner any reason to suspect what he has
stated ? Woy should there be au apprehension that he
wid be turned out?
Mr C. TURNER : I have no such apprehension.
Mr Alderman S. HOWIE: I must make one remark
in answer to Mr. Turner. When I came into this
room—
The DEPUTY MAYOR : It has been moved and seconded
—(Cries of "order, order," and confusion).
Mr. Alderman Koeste : I merely want to make an
explanation. If the question were put for the re-election
of the four gentlemen, I would vote for all of them.
Mr. Tours said that he should have been very glad had
the Council been in the first instance at once adjourned to
Saturday, bat he ceneeived there was more to be appre-
hended now from an adjournment than from continuing the
proceedings. (Hear, hear) They were to have a meeting
at oee o'clock which would be a most important one, and
in which it was absolutely necessary the Chairman and
other members of the Dock Committee should take part,
otherwise he feared the meeting would be perfectly fruit
less.
Mr.. Crunroe : There must be a chairman chosen to-
morrow by the Dock Committee, and if Mr. Turner is not
a member of the Dock Committee he cannot be made
chairman.
Mr. Plum I understand that is not so.
Mr. J. B. BaaNCXE : I feel convinced that nothing can
be more injurious to the welfare of this Corporation and the
success cf e proceedings which are taking place elsewhere,
than the adjournment of this very question and the discus-
sion which has arisen. The lesser evil of the two now is to
let the Dock Committees proceedings go on. (" No, no,"
and "Hear, hear.")
Here, amid eon iderable confasif;n, the temper of the
Council evidently growing warm with the debate, Mr.
Alderman Moline and several other members lef,; the room,
but some of them returned again.
Mr. HOENBY said that after what had fallen from Mr.
Tobin, he should now vote against the adjournment.
The Dseurr-114"aeost : And YOU moved the adjournment,
ITornby. (Uproar.)
--
TODSON prote;ted against such interference on the
-I):Tuty-Mayor. (Uproar.)
part ▪
of the _
Mr.o.bserved that he nover voted with more
fweeaslinegySicil7 .ng in the back ground
he should on this occasion. There
evidently
Here another rush of members from the room took place,
and the confusion became greater.
lu
Mr. Teats : A. number of gentlr., leaving the
men are
1, and if it is for the objeat of making no Council,
,eting by a side-wind that which they are not able
TOO7I. in a straightforward- way, it was very much to beo
and m (Hear, hear.)
to obts:,,, I have painfully waited and have green
regre ted. le from the lips of gentlemen, wbv are
',an myself, some information that will
Mr, rfonso.,
anxious to gath, vote for the benefit of the town ;
better aequaultacl t
L
enable me to give Di.)