The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-02-05 00:00:00

P N 07/ THI-41RN TI?IRS
THURSDAY.

he wished to know eras whether there was any fund that
could be applied to old and discharged servants.
Mr. Braneker replied in the negative.
Mr. Woodruff : Nor is there any asylum for them.
~, The general proceedings were then confirmed.
The usual monthly meeting of the Town Council was DCA!
DOCK COMMITTEE.
at eleven o'clock yesterday, in the Town Hall ; the Mayor, The proceedings, direction) and resolutions of this
Frtincis Shand, Esq., presided, committee n ere next read.
The minutes of the recent council meetings wore read. _ Mr. C. Turner. I beg to move the confirmation of the
proceedings.
THE VACANCY IN PITT SI REST IVATtD. Mr. Robinson seconded the motion.
The first business performed, was the formal declaration Mr. S. Holm, before those proceedings were con-
byi the Mayor and Town Clerk, of a vacancy arising n Pitt ) firmed, begged to put a question to the chairman of
street Ward, owing to the disqualification of Mr. john the dock committee. It was well known that at the
north east end of the Prince's Dock the dock corn-
Gladstone, jun. ' mittee had for many years granted to some benevolent
Mr. Ferniliongh said.. he was quite sure that only one ladies a building, which they had used as an even-
feeling would pervade all the members of the council, as ge Heal depot. He thought that he should not be
regarded the unfortunate position of the late member for violating any confidence, in saying that to Mrs.
and Mrs. E. Cropper belonged a large amount of thanks,
Pitt street "Ward. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") During the for taking into that institution a number of females
period
was a member of that body, he (Ar. Fereihough) who came to this port for the purpose of emigration,
he
felt quite satisfied that every member of the council would and who were subjected to be plundered by persons
agree with him, that a man of more kindly and gentlemanly
ladies had expended a large amount of money in
disposition never entered the room. (aeer, hear.) • fitting up that institution, and he had understood that
Although it might appear somewhat out of place to make these ladies had received notice to give up that building
any remarks upon the subject; still, he thought it might on the 6th of April next. He had no doubt but that the
building was wanted by the dock committee for dock
hove some gratifying effect to Mr. Gladstone and his family
purposes, but he was sure that the chairman of the dock
—to elicit the sympathy of the council by thus expressing committee would agree with him that it was the feeling
his feelings. (Elear, hear.) of the town at large that the ladies had, by their kindness
FINANCE COMMITTEE. and benevolence, conferred a great benefit on the public
The minutes of this committee were read, but did not by taking care of those poor females, who, otherwise,
contain any subject of special importance. would have been plundered had not that institution been
Mr. Al.!erman S. Holme said the council would have in existence. It was possible that they could not grant
perceived by the prccEediuga just read, that there was the use of that building, but he did trust that they
nothing this month beyond the usual routine business 1 would be enabled to find another, and give those ladies
brouAtt becor3 them. There was, therefore, nothing upon i the opportunity of carrying on their institution, and
which he had to make any comment or give explanation. safely keeping the poor emigrants from being robbed and
He should therefore save the time of the council by simply plundered by the land sharks who were prowling
Ineving the confirmation. about.
Mr. Preston seconded the motion. Mr. C. Turner said the subject had been several times
Mr. Robertson Gladstone said he thould like to have some before the dock committee, and had received considerable
information from the finance can msttee with regard to the attention, and it had been with regret that the notices
expanses to be incurred in reference to the Birkenhead bill had been given. He had himself received a letter,
before Parliament. He desired to understand exactly what indeed two, from Mrs. Cropper on the subject, and feel
would probab'y be the expense to which the corporation would in; the great benefit that had been derivei from the in-
be put on that matter. The council would bear in mind stitution, the subjset had been referred to the harbour
that Mr. Venn was placed in London for the purpose of master, who, after giving the subject the greatest con-
conducting the business there, and, as he understood, with sideration, reported that the notice should he confirmed,
the view of saving the corporate purse. Nov he should and at the same time postponing it for three months.
ltae to know whether any other party or parties were likely It was not the wish of the committee to deprive the Ladies
to be employed by the council. of the building, but it could not be otherwise
Mr. Holme said the town clerk could probably explain He would assure the council that the committee would
better than he could. He understood, however, that Mr. pay every coasideretion to the subject, as far as flirting
Venn was placed there to conduct the general law business another building suitable for the purpose, but he would
of the corporation. It would be unquestionably necessary not deceive them by expressing any hope that they would
for the town clerk to attend in Loudon, when such very retain the present. He did not think there was any
important measures as the Birkenhead bills were likely to
be brought before Parliament, chance of that, but it' there was any other building that
-
The Town Clerk said he stated, et the time of Mr. could be found, it was the wish of the committee that
that should be done,'as it was the wish of the committee
Venn's appointment, in his repert, that Mr. Veen's ' that so useful an institution should not be put to any
residence in London would bet merely with reference to the inconvenience in carrying out its objects.
common law, chancery, and the gerere't business of the Me: Banner said he wished to ask a question of the
corporation, exclusive of the parliamentary business, dock committee, and that was, as to whether any consi-
During the progress of the
however, employ parlt
a parliamentiry deefety
Pr:sent bills, the council must, 'deration had been taken as to a position for the salt
agents. Mr. Venn was not water baths ?
-
.gent, and they would still have to employ
such an arr- Mr. C. Turner replied that the subject had been
eat In matters of that sort.
M- e repeatedly before the council, and there had been a
. • e. Gladstone : Then what will be the saving by communication between the surveyor and the baths
et:icing him in his present position ? committee, and it was understood that such baths could
The Town Clerk : All that we have hitherto paid to be placed at the north of the corporation baths. It
general law agents: might be said that that position was rather too near, as
Mr. Gladstone : Could you state what the amount would the sewers emptied themselves into the river at that
be in round numbers? I think you may include the point, but it was suggested that that should be the
expenses at the Burlington hotel? pumping station.
The Town Clerk : I stated in my report to the finance Mr. Earle would like to know if Mr. Banner had seen
committee, at the time cf this appointment, that, ordinarily the pipes that bad been taken up at the baths, and the
speaking, the residence of Mr. Venn in Loudon would effect that the salt water had had ou them.
reader it unnecessary for me to be present there, but that Mr. Banner : No, no.
upon such important occasions as the business which went Mr. Earle : Then he had a right to have done so, and
on last session, it would still be necessary for me to attend then he would have known something about it. He
in London.: should make himself master of a question before he

'DOWN COUNCIL.

The subject then dropped.
Mr. Gladstone again rose and said : There is one other
point in refererce to which I desire to make a remark or
two. I date say most of the members of the courcil are
aware that that portion of the public press which are
opposed to this corporation on the subject of the town dues,
has, in a variety of instances, circulated a report to the
effect that our local rates are defrayed from the revenues
received from these town dues. Now, sir, this is in itself, as
we all know, so serious a misstatement, that I conceive
it cannot be too soon corrected. (Hear, hear.) The only
rate, I be'ieve, train which this community is exempt is the
watch rate, whilst, on the other 4Ted,there are one or two
rates which, strictly Speaking, may be said not to be incum-
bent upon the community to pay, although I am a very
firm advocate for the propriety of such rates—for instance,
the library and museum rate I consider a very desirable rate.
(Hear, hear.) But I wish it to go forward, in reply to that
statement, through the medium of the representatives of
_ the press, what our rates really are. In round numbers,
sir, I dare say you are aware that the parish rates amount to
2s 411 in the pond, whilst the b6rough rates amount to
la 5,1,1 in the pound, all of which rates are payable and
paid. (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the non pay-
ment of the watch rate by the community, we are all well
aware that it amounts to a very cou-iderable sum of money :
bat still, if our friends in Manchester are successful in
carrying out their principles, that they have an inherent
right to the management of our lccal affairs, as parties
contributing to the town dues, then the principle must
bold equally good if we app'y it to the payment of rates
generally on the revenues derivable from the docks. The
docks cannot be approached without streets and pavements,
and highways. I believe the docks pay no highway rates.
So long as wo were in possession of the town dues, this
was a matter which the community appears to have borne
with very considerable patience ; but if our friends in
Manchester can establish their principle and their right to
an interest in the control of the docks, surely they will,
at the same time, agree to bear what properly belongs to
the docks. (Hear, hear). Moreover, we know that our
docks have been exempt from what really might very
fairly have been charged upon them—much heavier con-
tributions to the local charities than they pay at present.
It would be hard to say how many broken heads and
• limbs are caused by accidents occuring along these docks,
from day to day, from the expenses attaching to which
• the docks have been exempt. However, my object in
making these few remarks was to show to the public that
we, as a community, are not exempt from local rates, but
that we pay our full and fair proportion. (Hear, hear).
Mr. Alderman Dover said the reason the watch rate was
allowed to the parish was, that the parish was p ocuring a
bill to tax the corporate property, but in consideration of
that rate being allowed to the parish, the bill was aban-
doned. All other corporations in England, with that
exception, paid local rates. (Hear, hear.)
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.
The following is the amount of lent rates levied on the
Borough of Liverpool from the year 1847 to 1856 •-
1847, .
1818

brings it forward,
Mr. Wagstaff said the council had a very excellent
mussel berl under the present baths It was from thirty
to forty feet ►ong. He then explained that some of the
pipes had been taken up which led from the cistern to
the filtering beds at the baths, and in them had been found
a very superior mussel bed, and that these pipes had to
be bored at a cost of from £l2 to £l3. The mussels
taken from them were of a superior quality, and were so
go4d that the men had eaten them. He would ask,
what would be the result if they were to have salt
water baths all over the town ? Why, in twenty years,
all the pipes would have to be put dolt n ag tin.
Mr. Hodgson said, that did not meet use question at
all.
The Chairman : That question is not now before us.
Mr. Hodgson then went on to say that: baths were
required at the north end of the town, near St. John's
Church, and he had no doubt that the establishment of
salt water baths would be a profitable investment.
Mr. Bannett did not agree with the last speaker, and
asked, what must be the effect, as mussels had been
found in the salt water pipes—what must be the effect of
the thousands of horse mussels that would be found at the
bottom of th 3 Rivington reservoirs. (Laughter.)
Mr. Fernihough stated, that the establishment of salt
water baths o►er the town would costa sum of £lOO,OOO.
He then stated that steps had been taken at a former
period on the subject, and was proceeding with his
remarks, when
Mr. Earle said : Mr. Chairman, are we on the dock
committee or the baths committee.
The Chairman replied : We are more on the baths
committee.
Mr. Fernihough thought he was justified in speaking
on the subject.
The proceedings of the dock committee were then
confirmed.

1819.. ,
1850
1851
1852 258,392
18;3
1854...
1855
1856
Total rates in ten years, £3,015,771, or au average of
£801,577.

of having the post office rena-:,,d to that site. His own
impression was that the post office authorities had cot yet
made up their minds, and that the matter would really
end in nothing. If the committee did not come to some
artangement with the post office, he thought they ought to
be prepared at the net council meeting to lay before the
council some matured plan with regard to the site. He
thought it would be unfair towards the finance committee
to keep such a large and valuable lot of land lying idle.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Earle thought, as the subject had been mentioned, it
would be satisfactory to the council that the letter which had
come from the post office authorities, and the reply which
had been prepared, should be real.
The Town Clerk stated that, according to the instruc=
tions of the committee, he addressed a letter to Mr.
Beaufort, the Surveyor general of the post office, to ascertain
the quantity of land which the post office would require for
a new office, including the approaches, and also the
terms upon which they would be disposed to treat with the
committee. He received a reply, stating that the quantity
of land would be from 3,000 to 3,400 yards, but without
any notice of the other part of the letter, regarding terms.
He Was accordinglvinstructed to write again upon that
subject, and he received the following reply
Oswestry, 30th Jan., 1857.
Sir,--T beg to acknowledge your letter of the 27th instant,
requesting me to reply to the enquiry in your letter of the
.30th ultitno, in reference teethe terms or basis on which the
post office authorities would be disposed to treat with the cor-
poration in respect of the land required for the site of a new
post office and of the building. The present post office can be
made to answer all the pnrpeses of the department for several
years to &rime, and the proposition that a new post office should
be erected in Dale street originated with the chamber of
commerce, and not with the postmaster general. In deference,
however, to the wishes of that body, his Grace thought it right
to ascertain haw far their opinion coincided with
that of the corporation ; and whether the corporation
were prepared to make any propo'sition for the fur-
therance of the object in view. You will perceive
therefore, that it is for the corporation to 'take the initiative,
and for me to submit to the postmaster general any proposi-
tion which they may think fit to make.— I am, sir. Bce.,
W. L. BEAUFORT, Surveyor General. •
To W. Shuttleworth, Esq , Town Clerk.
That letter was laid before the committee yesterday, who
instructed him to reply. He accordingly prepared the
following reply :
l 3 Town Hall, Liverpool, 4th Feb., 1857.
Sir,—l have submitted to the committee of the Corporation
your letter of the 30th,ult and am directed to inform you,
that they read with surprise, your statement —" That the
present Post Office can be made to answer all the purposes of
the department for several years to come." The committee
have acted throughout under the impression that it was
admitted by the authorities that the Post Office is inadequate
for the' present business, and cannot be made so without the
expenditure of a considerable sum ; and that, looking to the
immense increase in that business within the last few years,
and to the certainty of a still more rapid increase, from the
extending trade and commerce of this great town and port, a
wise economy dictated the propriety of erecting a new establish
went, adequate to present and future requirements instead of
attempting at a large outlay, to 'effect improvements in the
present offices, whiCh could be considered only as temporary.
Under this impression, the committee postponed proceeding
with the erection of public offices on the land in Dale-street,
teeling assured that the corporation would gladly have Co.
operated with the Post office authorities, on fair and reasonable
terms, in an object of such great public importance ; but, under
the circumstances stated in your letter, they do not feel justified
t in recommending the Council to postpone further the appro-
priation of a very valuable piece of land, now wholly unpro-

organists, which he was sure they would de at a rate
commensurate with the ability displayed.
Mr. Alderman J. H. Turner observed that Mr. Dover
forgot that the congregation at St. Nicholas' paid no pew
rents. At St. George's it was different. He himself paid
eight guineas a year, and he was sure that if the pew
rents were abolished, the congregation would readily pay
for the organist.
Mr. J. B. Braneker reminded the council that these
salaries Were fixed at the last Meeting, and that was the
time when they should have been opposed. Had it been
then moved that the organists be appointed without any
Salary, he should have seconded the motion.
Mr. J. R. Jeffery said, that he had hoped, after the
remarks made in the council on a recent occasion, that
the congregation assembling in St, George's Church,
would not have applied to the council 'for any funds
whatever to furnish them either with an organist or
choir. Mr. Gladstone stated that he believed this pay-
ment to be illegal ; but, whether it was illegal or not, it
was a question of rates. £4O a year appropriated for
such a luxury, was £4O a year, in his opinion, mal-
appropriated, whether legally appropriated or not.
During the last Ord days, it Had been his (Mr. Jeffrey's)
duty to sit and hear appeals against the rates ; and *hen
he considered that the council voted away £l4O a year,
freely and lavishly to supply gratification to the most
aristocratic congregation in Liverpool, and when he
also considered how the taxes were wrung from
the poorer portion of the community (he under-
stood that the warrants which were daily issued
for the enfOreement of the rates, numbered some-
thing like 100) when he considered this, then lie
should appeal to the gentlemen who assembled within
the walls of St George's Curch, to keep their hands out
of the pockets of these pot .r rate payers, and if they were
inclined to indulge in the luxury of music, to supply it
at their own cost. (Hear, hear.) It was with sorrow and
grief that he issued summonses for the enforcement of
rates, granting fourteen days or a month for their payment,
when he recollected that these rates were appropriatedler
the purpose of gratifying the cars of gentlemen—(loud
cries of "No, no ") —who were themselves quite well able
to pay for the indulgence. Gentlemen might say " no,
no," and smile at the argument, but he observed, that
when on the hustings before their constituencies
gentlemen were most lavish in their promises as to the
attention which they would pay to rates, —yet
when once in the council, the question of rates
was that which received from them the least
attention. (Hear, hear.) The present was a question of
rates, and as a question of rates he now dealt with it.
He helped that his remarks would strike the feelings of
the gentlemen who assembled within this church, and
that if they were inclined to have the luxury of music,
they would pay for it out of their own pockets, particu-
larly when they were affluent enough to do so. (Hear,
hear).
Mr. Fernihough replied that Mr. Jeffrey forgot that
the corporation bad thrown open the whole of the gallery
of the church to the poor, and he considered that was a
feir compensation for the payment of the organist. He
questioned, indeed, if the people in the gallery would
not as much object to the removal of the choir as those
who sat below.
Mr. Beckwith said that he sometimes went to St.
George's church, and he observed that those who occu-
pied the gallery were among the most fashionably dressed
portion of the congregation. If any gentleman went
there and " took stock"—(laughter)—of the gallery, he
would find that it was so.
Mr. Alderman Parker would like to know how Mr.
Beckwith " took stock" in a church ? (Laughter). But
the corporation did not want .to hold church property.
They held these churches under an act of Parliament,
which cost them £l,OOO or £1,500 a year, but they could
not avoid the expenditure; they were bound to it by law,
and they could only endeavour to get rid of the property
as soon as possible. It was not the cost, however, but
the feeling of dissatisfaction against the church which
raised these discussions.
Mr. Hodson objected to the remarks of Mr. Parker,
when he said that they had a strong opposition to the
church. He (Mr. Hodson) begged to say, that he
thought as much of the church as Mr. ,Parker, but he
looked upon it in a different light to what he did. Mr
Hodson then contrasted the condition of Dr. M Veile's' and
others of the established churches of Liverpool, with that
of the corporation churches, and contended that if the
same course which prevailed in the former were adopted
in the latter, the same results would follow, and all the
expenses of the churches would be bcirne by the congre-
gations.
Mr. Wagstaff objected to the question being referred
back, as the committee were quite unanimous in the
recommendations.
Mr. Alderman S. Holme said that he was unwilling
to enter into the discussion of the general question
whether the corporation should pay these sums or not,
the council having already voted at their last meeting
that they should be paid—(hear, hear)—but he would
say one-word in reply to Mr. Jeffery. The corporation
had no power to apply any surplus revenue they might
have to the relief of the poor, and be (Mr. Heinle) did
not think there would he one single shilling less assessed
for parochial rates whether the organist of St. George's
church was paid by the corporation or not. He likewise
contended, that as the corporation appropriated money
for educational purposes, they could also properly appro-
priate it for the purpose of having the Gospel preached in
churches, and having clergymen to visit the poor in their
own houses, which was a sort of education in itself. There was
a little misconception as to the other churches. For twenty
five years of his life he sat in St. Andrew's church, which
was the.property of Mr. Gladstone's venerable father; and
during all that time Mr. Gladstone paid the choir and
paid the organist, at least he (Mr. Holme) supposed so, for
during those twenty five years ho was never asked for a
penny towards Each an expense. He paid £!5 or £l6 a
year pew rent, and those who received the rents paid all
the exnenses of the establishment, including the salaries of
the organist and the choir. In this instance, the corporation
received the pew rents, and they were in consequence asked
to pay these proper expenses. The church became their
property 130 years ago; and, considering that it was the
church where all the strangers visiting the town wont, he
thought it would be, to say the least of it, exceedingly
shabby to refuse to bear such an expense. He differed with
Mr. Beckwith as to the class of persons who frequented the
gallery. During the year of his ruayorality he attended St.
George's church, every Sunday, and he recognised in the
gallery many who, to his knowledge, were workingmen and
mechanios. With reference to the other subject of Mr.
Gladstone's amendment, he would be sorry to oppose any
resolution of the committee when unanimously come to, but
he did think that the position of Mr. Heiden' who was
well qualified for ,the post of organist, should have been
more considered.
Mr. W. P. Jeffreys denied that the committee were una-
nimous in those recommendations,
Mr. A. C, Stewart made a like declaration.
Mr. Banner replied; after which the amendment that the
matter be referred back to the committee, was put to the
vote, and carried by 36 to 8. Tee voting was as follows
For the amendment : Councillors Crosthwaite, Anderson,
Stitt, Archibald C. Stewart, Sheil, Illydock, Nicholson,
Godfrey,. Littledale, Tyrer, Turner, Livingston, Steains,
Walter P. Jeffreys, Tobin, Tinne, Robertson Gladstone,
Pictcn, James R. Jeffery, Kitchen, Hodson, Bscliwith,
Aikin, Clint, John Stewart, Fern worth, Robertson, Hal.
head, and Anthony. • Aldermen Chilton, Bold, Parker,
Cooper, Turner, Ileughton, and Holme. Total, 36.
Against, Councillors Banner, Fernihough, Wagstaff,
liraneker, and Earle. Aldermen Bonnet and Toulmin, and
the Mayor. Total, 8.
Mr. Alderman S. Holme said : Seeing the feeling of the
council, he weuld move that Mr. Holden be appointed the
organist, a course which would save a second di,cu3sion.
[The council exhibiting a strong feeling against such a
course, Mr. H dine did not persevere in in]
Mr. Robertson Gladstone then moved—That the word
"choir master," be expunged from the proceedings. He
contended that there was no necessity whatever fir the in-
troduction of the term; and that, hereafter, it might be
made the ground for the appointment of a choir master as
distinct from the organist. It was the duty of the organist
to train the choir ; and if he did not discharge that duty,
and the committee suffered it, then the congregation should
pay for a choir me-tar out of their own pockets. (Hear,
hear.) In %yes but an attempt to create another vested
interest, and he would; therefore, move that the term be
expunged.
Mr. Beckwith secondcid the motion.
Mr. Banner explained that the term was introduced into
the advertissmett, 'and then into the proceedings, in order
that the person accepting the post of organist, would spe-
cially see that he Should also discharge the duties of choir
master. That was the sole object of the committee, and if
it could be. expreaeei in any other term, they would be
most happy to adopt it,
Mr. Alderman S. Holme : Supposing the organist was
dismissed for any cause, would he have any claim on us
on account of vested interest ?
The Town Clerk : Certainly not ; nothing beyond a
year's salary.
The motion was then put, and lost by 28 to 13.
Mr. Banner then moved the appointment of Mr. John
Han as organist and choir-master of St. Luke's church,
at a salary of -e3O per annum.
Mr. W. P. Jeffreys said there was a letter upon the
subject which he wished to have read.
The Town-clerk accordingly read a letter, signed by
Mr. Abbott, churchwarden of St. Luke's church, strongly
urging in behalf of the congregation, that Mr. Charles
Smith should be appointed, he having acted already as
organist for three months, and stating that the congrega-
tion would rather pay his salary themselves, than have
any other appointed.
,Mr. Robertson Gladstone, said, the council having

ductive.
At the same time the committee desire me to point out that
property in the central part of the town is rapidly increasing
in value; and that should the land in Dale street, which,
from its proximity to the railway stations, docks, and com-
mercial districts, seems admirably adapted for a site.for the
post office, be otherwise occupied, no suitable site will here-
after be available except at a greatly enhanced cost.
I am, Sir, your most obedient servant,
WM. SHUTTLEWORTH, Town Clerk.
To W. L. Beaufort, Eaq., Survoyor General,
Post Office, Oswes ry.
Mr. Clint said : He was very glad this full explanation
had been given, because there appeared to be an impression
at tie recent meeting of the chamber of commerce, that
the fault lay with the corporation and not with the Govern.
ment. That impreision had been removed by Mr. Sheil ;
but he was very glad this full explanation had now taken
place, as it would show that the corporation was not in
fault ; and make known to the public where the fault really
lay. He thought it very short sighted policy of the
government to lose sight of that very valuable opportunity
which might never arise again ; end, he could only regret,
that such a site—so centrally situated—should not be availed
of for the purpose. He believed the present post office
could only be used for three or four years, and it would
reqaire that time to constrnet• the new offices. (IL ar, hear.)
11 Mr. Allerman Holme : That reply, divested of all the
diplomacy of the circumlocution office cfthe government, is
this—that if the merehants.of-Liverpool want a post office,
they may build it for themselves at their own cost— that the
government will then honour us by letting their establish-
ment be removed there, but that they will not contribute
one penny to the expense of the building, or pay any rent
for it. That is the meaning of it. (hear, hear.)
The proceedings were then confirmed.
GARDENS COMMITTEE. _ _

The,proceedings contained a recommendation that the-
management of the public girdens ba transferred to the
curator of the Botanic Gardens, and that' a permanent
foreman be appointed to act under his directians, and that
workmen be employed from time to time as occ ►sion may
require.
The proceedings were confirmed.
CHURCH EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee were read. They cern-
prised —Recommendation to appoint Tommasso Radcliffe
Organist and Choir Master of St. George's Church, at a
Salary of £59 per annum. Recommendation to appoint
John Hall Organist and Choir*Master of St. Luke's
Church, at a Salary of £3O per annum.
Mr. Banner moved that the first recommendation be
confirmed. Mr Rebertson 'Gladstone objected to. the
recommendation. Since the death of Mr. Holden. his
son, discharged the duties of organist with very great
satisfaction to the congregation. He was a young map
of very considerable ability, bred to the profession, and
he (Mr. Gladstone) was informed that he was quite equal
in point of talent to any of the other candidates. The
principle .was a sound one, that the corporation was not
to be regarded as a sort of protector to the distressed,
but he thought their next duty was to'do that which was
most calculated to do benefit to their fellow creatures.
Taking that view of the subject, he did think, that inas-
much as the qualifications of Mr. Holden could not
be called in question, the voice of the widow and
the fatherless might without impropriety be heard in the
matter. He understood that Mr. Radcliffe was also a
a very competent organist. He would be sorry indee
if any remark of his were calculated to disparage Mr.
Radcliffe in any way in the public estimation. He ha d
no such aim ; but he did think that, inasmuch as M r:
R Actin was already in possession of two situations, one
at the Collegiate Institution, and the other at the church
at Fairfield, it would be a cruel proceeding, under the
very peculiar circumstances of the case, if they did not
give a young man like Mr. Holden a chance of distin-
guishing himself in his profession. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Holden asked no favour ; be merely asked that his claims
might be csnsidered, and without damaging any sacred
principle, he (Mr. Gladstone) thought that these claims
might receive consideration. (Bear; hear.) He would'
therefore, move that the appointment of Mr. Radcliffe
be referred back to the committee, in order tWatthz claims
of Mr. Holden might be considered. There was another
point on which he should remark. He observed in the
notice paper an expression which was new to him, what-
ever it might be to other members of the council ; he
meant the word " choir master." He objected to that
term, and should move that it be expunged from the
proceedings. They had already vested rights enough to
protect—(hear, hear)—and as long as he was a member
of the council he would take care that no attempt was
made to add to the number. It was the business of the
organist to instruct the choir. . But in fact the payment
was illegal, and, therefore, to saddle themselves with fresh
responsibilities was what they ought not, as horrst men.
to commit themselves to, for rile moment. He would
therefore, move that the word "choir master" be expunged
from the proceedings.
Mr. Beckworth seconded the amendment.
Mr. Alderman Dover said it was unfortunate that the
committee fixed any salary at all, because any person
who knew the value of musical talent would see 'hat £3O
a year was unworthy the acceptance of any qualified man
filling such a position. The consequence would be that
musical feeling in Liverpool would sink. (Laughter.)
He did not wish to be misunderstood. He agreed with
Mr. Gladstone on one point, but he should repeat that
It was to be regretted that the committee fixed any salary
at all ; they shotild rather have followed the precedent
laid down in the case of St. Nicholas' Church, where
an organist was appointed, and where it was left to the
congregation in their good sense to remunerate him in
proportion to his abilities. (Hear, bear.) He was years
ago an advocate for the discontinuance of their payments,
because he thought that as music was a luxury in places
of worship, it was a fair thing that the congregation
should pay for it. (Hear, hear.) He thought that if the
plan followed out in St. Nicholas' Church were adopted
in St. Luke's and St. George's, he had no doubt that it
would succeed ; and he would therefore wish that it was
moved that there was no salary at all, but that it was left
to the congregations themselves to remunerate the

heard that testimonial read in favour of Mr. Smith, he
Wished to make a.few remarks. He understood that Mr.
Charles Smith held the appointment of organist tempo.
rarity for three months at St. Luke's church, during the
illness of Mr. Rogers, and that he gave very great satis.
faction to the congregation, as well as to the minister, the
Rev. Mr. Lawrence. If, therefore, the claims of Mr.
Smith were equal to those of any other candidate, he
(Mr. Gladstone) contended that he should be viewed in a
preferable light to any other. Now, if he were correctly
informed, Mr. Hall was already a servant of the corpora-
tion. He was a collector of water rates, at a salary of
RlBO a year ; and the chairman of the committee appeared
to have carried his memory very far back, when he re.
commended the appointment of a man as organist, whom
he could prebably recollect in the course of business when
he was connected with the Corporation water works. This
Mr. Hall had also, he understood, the appointment of organ-
ist already at St. Barnabas's church, at the south end of the
town. (Hear, hear.) Now, here was a young man of
whom he balieled ho might say that he possessed perhaps
a greater amount of talent than any other young, man in
Liverpool in his own profession, and wtio Certainly was not
exceeded by any other except Mr. Best. Here Was a young
man who had given very great satisfaction to the congre-
gation, who was approved of by the ministers, and was he
to be displaced, not from any superiority of fitness upon
the part of his opponent, but in order to suit some par-
ticular views either of the chairman, or of the committee,
or of somebody else. He considered that a very hard
case, and he furtherprotested against it, because he con-
sidered it to be extremely unsound in principle, that one
man should hold two appointments under one master.
(Hear, hear.) He thought it extremely inexpedient that
they should allow one servant to perform two duties, for
which two distinct payments were made, and in the course
of which it was just possible that the duties might
clash: (Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, most dis-
tinctly oppose the appointment of Mr. Hall, and would
move the following as an amendment:—" That having
been assured, from the best sources, of the talent, fitness,
and capability of Mr. Charles Smith to perform the duties
of organist, the appointment of Mr. Hall be referred back
to the church expenditure committee, with a view to, their
reconsidering the claim of Mr. Smith."

Mr. W. P. Jeffreys seconded the amendment. He
remarked, in addition to what had been said by Mr.
Gladstone, that Mr. Smith had the highest testimonials
from the late Mr. George Holden, whose pupil he a as,
and who did not hesitate to give it as his opinion that he
was second to very few in Liverpool. Mr. Smith had been
born id Liverpool, and had lived there all his life, being
brought up to the study of music. His father was a
highly respectable. tradesman, a music-seller in Lord-
street. The young man was a moral, good young man,
perfectly capable of fulfilling all his duties. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Tyrer was sorry to have to vote against any com-
mittee, but he feared he should be compelled to do so,
unless the chairman could show some good reasons for
appointing the gentleman whom he recommended.
Mr. Wagstaff said he was one of those who voted in the
committee for the appointment of Mr. Hall. Mr. Hall
was a water rate collector, and a more faithful, diligent,
collector they never had. ,(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Yes, he was a man of a good, moral character. (Hear,
hear; and laughter.) Mr. Smith was but a youth of 16
years of age.
Mr. Jeffreys said he was in his 20th year.
Mr. Fernihough supported the recommendation of the
committee.
Mr. Earle : if we go on grinding the organ this way we
shall not have the water works playing to day at all.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Banner denied that he knew anything of Mr. Hall
as collector of the Liverpool and Harrington Water Works.
He would have been most happy to support Mr. Smith,
whose father was a most respectable-man, to whom he was
under obligations for the liberal manneain which he acted
towards a public institution, in which he (Mr. Banner)
took an interest. But Mr. Smith was a very young man
—too young, in the judgment of a majority of the com•
mittee, to take upon himself the management of a choir.
No doubt he was a very good organist, but the gentleman
selected was, in his opinion, and that of a majority of the
members, the fittest man. Mr. Banner, however, said he
would not oppose the motion being referred back.
Mr. J. R. Jeffery moved an amendment to the effect,
that the council intimate to the churchwardens and con-
gregation, that they had much pleasure in granting to the
congregation assembling in. St. Luke's Church, the privi-
lege of appointing their own organist so long as they pro-
vided the money for the payment of his salary.
Mr. Wagstaff seconded the amendment. , Mr. Stitt
supported it. •
Mr. Alderman Holme asked whether it could be legally
put ?
The Town Clerk said the act distinctly provided that
the council should appoint an organist. If they appointed
him without a salary, he would have a right to go to the
court and compel them to fix a salary. He therefore
suggested that the matter should be referred back to the
committee, and that the wishes of the congregation be
complied with, provided they got a bond of indemnity.
Mr. Charles Turner contended that the letter could not
be considered as making a bona fide offer, which any man
of business could so construe. (Rear, hear.) He protested
against the time of the council being taken up with
matters which must end in nothing. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. A. C. Stewart and Mr. Picton, urged that the offer
was genuine and deliberate.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone said he did not wonder that
some impatience was displayed, for these discussions in
reference to the corporation churches, were at all times
unpleasant. If these buildings were in the hands of private
individuals they would be turned probably to good account,
but it was very well known withinithe walls of the council,
and without that they were a discredit to the corporation.
(Hear, hear.)Was there not, then, among them one noble
spirit who would speak out in the tone and spirit of
freedom, and say that it was a dishonour to take from the
funds of others the means of carrying out these paltry
appointments. He admired the ingenuity of the Town
Clerk—he had frequently done so. He had had upon
many occasions to take that view of his proceedings.
They knew very well how it would be if they wanted a
loophole to creep out—they should then very soon find
the difficulty removed. (Oh, oh, and order, order.) He
begged to say that he was speaking in perfect order. The
Town Clerk was there, and if he said anything unpleasant
or discreditable to him he should extremely regret it. He
said it to show his ability and cleverness. (Oh, oh, from
Mr. Tyrer.) He could tell Mr. Tyrer he was the very last
authority he should take a lesson from—
Mr. Tyrer : It is at least an honest authority.
Mr. Gladstone : I will not be interrupted by you, sir ;
and I appeal to the Mayor.
Mr. Tyrer : Well ; I don't care. (Laughter and order.)
Mr. Gladstone then went on to suggest that a nominal
salary be fixed, and let the congregation provide the
balance, and appoint the organist.
The Town Clerk: I hope the council will do me the
justice to suppose that I would not advise them upon any
mere quibble or anything of the sort. (Cries of hear,
hear.)
Mr. Gladstone : I have not accused you of it.
The Town Clerk : I have stated to the council what was
my honest opinion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Gladstone : I did not make use of the word
quibble.'' If that word be attributed to me 1 call upon
the town clerk to withdraw it.
Mr. Tyner : I certainly understood it so. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Hodson: No, no, there was no such word used.
Mr. Tyrer : I appeal to the council—there can be no
doubt at all about it. (Hear, hear.)
The Town Clerk: I did not hear Mr. Gladstone make
use of the word " quibble," but I understood him to say
that I could make my opinion subservient to any purpose
I thought fit. (Hear, hear.) I beg to say that I have
given the council my honest opinion upon the construction
of the act of parliament ; and after reading the letter of
Mr. Abbott, in order to see whether some course could
not be adopted to meet the views of many gentlemen, I
recommended that the question be referred back
to the committee, and that by obtaining a sufficient bond of
indemnity the object could be carried out. But I would
not recommend the council to part with their power of
appointment, or to appoint any person without a fit and
prop er salary in thar Judgment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Jeffery : I have not the slightest objection to the
town clerk's advice being followed, and I will alter the
amendment. (Cries of No, no, an'l vote, vote.) Sir, I
understand that it is an illegal amendment, and I am quite
willing to withdraw It.
Mr. Alderman Holme : Under ordinary circumstances I
should have most gladly consented to do an act aof courtesy
to a gentleman who wished to withdraw an amendment,
but after the-very unjust attack made upon the town clerk,
if not direct, at least by insinuation—a gentleman whose
legal abilities are acknowledged by all, and whose conduct
is a model for every town clerk —I avail myself of my
privilege as a member, and object to the withdrawal of the
amendment. (Hear, hear.) I demand that the vote of the
council be taken upon it. (Hear, hear.)
The Mayor said the motion could not be put as now
shaped, being illegally framed.
Mr. Earle No wonder we have gentlemen objecting to
come into this room, when we have our time trifled away
as it has been for the last few hours. (Hear, hear.)
The Town Clerk suggested that the amendment should
be so shaped as to allow to the minister and church-
wardens the privilege of recommending a person for the
appointment, provided they paid the salary, and gave a
proper indemnity to the council that the latter body should
not be called on to do so.
Mr. Jeffery accepted the alteration.
A division was then taken on the altered amendment,
when there appeared :
For the motion : Councillors Crosthwaite, Stitt, A. C.
Stewart, Shell, Woodruff, . liaydock Nicholson, Robertson
Gladstone, Picton, J. IL Jeffery, Kitchen, Hodson,
Mellor, Beckwith, Aikin, Clint, Farnwortb, and Alderman
Dover-18.

Against the motion • Couneillors Anderson, Tyrer,
Turner, Livingston, Steains, W. P. Jeffreys, Braneker,
Tinne, Earle, J. Stewart, Robertson, Halhead, Anthony ;
Aldermen Chilton, Bennett, Freston, Bold, Parker, Cooper,