Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-10-20 00:00:00

committee. He recollected when learned gentlemen, wit)
had got thousands of p mends for the information, told
them that 23,000,000 gallons of water per week was the
most that could be obtained from the red sand-stone, and
yet now they got 47,000,000 gallons per week from those
very spring-s. (Hear, hear) He was glad that the com-
mittee were now changing their mind on the subject, and
that they were anxious to give the inhabitants as much
sprir,g water as prssible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRAVES said : Mr. Mayor, I had hoped, considering
that the deliberations on this question commenced last
April that to-day, when the question is matured and fit for
decision, we should have had put before us one or other of
the best remedies for meeting thin difficulty. The Wa'er
Committee have come ferward with what in their opinion
is best for meeting this question under all circumstances.
I had hoped that the gentlemen who h too taken an opposite
view would have come forward with something more direct
—with some more pr :rapt and applicable a remedy to the
disease, that that coetaired in the amendment which I
have heard read. (Hear, hear.) That amendment
seeks for a re urn which the engineer can give
at any time that be is asked for. It is a return
which we shall be glad to hive before us, but
I cannot see why that should be brought forward
to-day, in opposition to the recommendation of the Water
Committee. The question is one which ought to be settled
before the evening closes (Hear, hear.) Mr. Jeffery
usually brings a straigh- forward candour to bear on those
questions, when he takes them up, but on this occasion he
has not met the question in the way in which it ought to
he met before the Council. The question will resolve itself
into this—whether we shall re-filter the Rivingten water,
or lay down a second set of pipes? (Hear, bear) When
it first became my duty to take part in the proceedings of
the Water Committee, I found that a doubt w s beginning
to creep into it, that the Rivington water was not likely to
be as successful as was at first hoped. I accordingly first
satisfied myself that the water, as being then distributed,
was not of an unwh desome nature, and I satisfied myself
on that point, by taking the sanitary statistics as my guide.
I had also the opinion of very eminent medical
men on the subject, and I th ught I was safe in
taking the side of time, rather than coma to a hasty
conclusion upon so important a question Time has justified
me in that course, and enables me now to speak with some
confidence in the matter. I think that the Riving'on
scheme has answered the etpectations of its promoters in
giving to the town an ample and abundant supply of water.
(Hear, hear.) I have in my hand a return of the last three
years ; and I find that in this year, estimating to the end
of the year for what has occurred up to the present time,
there have been only 1,516 complaints as to the quantity
of water. In 1856, I find th t these complaints amounted
to 3,732 ; and, in 1855, to 5,919. I think, then, that the
inference is this—that our supply of water his been nearly
ample for the wants of the teen—(hear, hear)—bat I
regret to state that, in point of quality, I don't think that
the Pike scheme has answered what the promoters of that
scheme originally contemplated. (Haar, hoar.) Many
schemes hate been brought forward to deal
with this ; but there are four which deserve
prominent and particular attention. Ode is
the intermittent supply. That at first appea-ed
simple, but when we looked into it we found it surrounded
with difficulties. Our engineers has also reported on its
impracticability, on the ground that if you discharge your
pipes before you take in the other supply you allow to
run to waste 4.000,000 gallons of water daily, and if, on
the other hand, you all rw the water.,to remain mixed in
the pipes, you fail in the object in view. The second was
the falling back upon the old system of the sandstone
water for dietetic, and the Riv ng on water for other
purposes ; bat, as Mr. Hodson has told us, there is the
difficulty in connection with this schema of keeph3g the
mains charged with a constant supply, and the failure of
which would render the Council liable, in else of a fire,
to an amount which you can scarcely estimate. Tile
Water Committee, however, have treated this question on
broader grounds. ri hey consider it their duty to deal
out to the tows that which every community has a right to
demand—the most plentiful supply of water that
they can give. (Hear, hear) The sanitary con-
dition of the town, and the social welfare of the people
depends upon that ample supply being given. Now, from
the sandstone water, we have haa an avepags supply of
45,000,000 gallons per week, but we have been deliverarg
to the town for the last nine months, an average of
70,000,000 gallons per week, and in August 86 000,000
gallens. Now, I ask you, except for a temporary purpose,
or while you are trying another scheme, would you be
justified in falling back upon such a supply as 45 000,000
gallons per week ? We then coma to the bolder
course of a double set of pipes, which has this
merit, that it meets the difficulty at the root. (Hear, hear.)
So anxious were the Water Committee to endeavour to
settle the question, this vexed question, to hush up con-
flicting opinions out of deers, that they reserved their
most anxious consideration for that point ; and I do
b lieve that if they could have seen their way clearly in
th • point of finance, if they could have seen their way how
t ) raise money for carrying on the work without oppress-
ing the town, or borrowing money which they had not the
means of repaying, that there wculd have been many
advocates for that scheme. (Hear, hear). I do hope, there-
fore, that in dealing with this question, gentlemen who
may advocate a second line of pipes, will endeavour to
satisfy the Council upon this most important point. I do
not refer to the scheme of skeleton pipes, which has been
suggested by Mr. Bennett, consisting of 27 miles, at a cost
of some £40,000, because it is impracticable, inasmuch as
we are told we would be compelled to supply the out.
townships, and the tows of Prescot, with a similar quality
to that which we use ourselves. You must therefore boldly
repels with the large and comprehensive scheme of a
double set of pipes, numbering 170 miles, and costing
£165,000; and, gentlemen, when I tell you that than ex-
penditure will be asked for simply to supply one per cant,
of the total consumption of the town Liverpool the esti-
mated quantity for table pirpos 's being 100 000 gallons
daily—you will ace how important is the subject. Waite
these plans were being discussed in the Water Committee,
we had, as you are all aware, gentlemen of high chemical
repute engaged in making expetiments upon the possib lity
of producing the water free of the colour which is the great
objection to the Riving'on water ; and although they have
failed to pro 'uce, within the time allotted by the Council,
a result upon which the Water Committee felt justified in
acting, yet they have produced a report wldch has fully
confirmed the views of the Water Committee, that the
Rivington water is capable, by filtration, of having the
objection cf colour entirely removed. That report is
before you to-day, and I think I am not far wring in
saying that, in the minds of impartial men, it will
be received with confidence. (Hear, hear ) In
the meantime, our own engineer has, by a most simple
process, produced a result so satisfactory, so convincing,
that the Water Committee have felt justified in passing,
upon that result, the recommendations which have been
placed befo a you this day. I have seen the water in the
next room which has undergone this simple process, and I
can see no difference, judging impartially between the colour
of it and the sandstone water. If, then, gentlemen, for a
cost of £1,200 a-year, we can bring these magnifi rent works
into play—if we are able to dispense with a coat of £6,000,
or even £3,000 a-year for pumping the red sandstone
water, and we shall be able to deliver the Rivington water
in a purer slate after some chemical filtration—l ask you
is it not worth while to pause and consider whether this
would not be the better course to follow ? (fle r, hear )
I shall not occupy your time much longer, gentlemen. I
would simply now wish to allude to the Water Committee
itself. I have frequently heard, in the discussions on this
subject in the Council, gentlemen remarking with great
good feeling that they would support the Water
Committee—that they bad confidence in the Water
Committee, or that they were not willing to
place the Water Committee in an embarrassing
situation ; and that rule, perhaps, is ordinarily a good
one when you are called upon to decide upon the reports
of committees and have not all the eate before you. But
in this case every report which has been produced before
the Water Committee, eve y fact which was known to
them, has been transmitted to the Council. I say, th, n,
that it is the fault of members of the Council themselves
if they are not to-day prepared to deal with this question
on its own merits, and irrespective of the Water Committee.
(Hear, hear) I speak only for myself, gentlemen, in now
stating that I do protest against any considerati on for the
Water Committee influencing any gentleman to-day in the
decision he comes to here. (Hear, hear.) Let the decision
you arrive at go forth to the public as the decision of the
Corpora'ion of Liverpool, and not simply as that of the
Water Ctmmittee. I do hope that you will not delay your
decision longer than to-day. If your resolution shall
etnlirm the recommendation of the Water Committee, I am
sure that your wishes shall be most energetically and
promptly carried out, and if on the other hand, you should
see fit to annul that recommendation, I am sure that the
members of the committee will be as willing to bow to the
wishes of the Council, and to carry out that system,
whatever it may be, which the majority of the Council
prefer (Hear, hear.)
Mr. STITT : Mr. Mayor, I. am sure that such is the
sublime complication in which this question has become
involved, with reports and c tinter-reports, in such numbers
as to become perfectly bewildering, it is not an easy matter
for any individual member, who desires to take a calm and
impartial view of so vital a question, to arrive at any satis-
factory result. Any gentleman who would take up the
tangled threads of the various arguments we have heard.
and would bring them into something like a focal, would
entitle himself to the best thanks of the gentlemen I tee
around me. I fear it is not within my power to do so.
But through all the mists and all the difficulties which
have surrounded the question, and continue to surround
it at this moment, there are two or three facts beginning

to make themselves very palpable to my reflection.
I presume I am right in saying that it is a fact that the
original advocates of the Pike scheme were led on by
promises that this scheme when completed would place
us in possession of water which should supersede and
supply all the purposes of the well water which was then
in use. I presume that another fact is that the Rivington
water, hazing come to the torn, does not comply with
these promises. I presume it disappoints, as was
properly said, the expectations of many of the inhabitants.
No sooner hid it made its appearance in the town than a
large and influentially signed MentOri il was presented to
the Council, representing it to be extremely unsatisfactory,
and calling for specific action on the part cf the Council
to place them in possession again of the original well
supply by a sepera e line cf pipes. When that memorial
came before the Council I advocated its reference to the
Water Committee, because I believed that instantly to
comply with its request would have been ext emely
undesirable, seeing that the works were entirely new,
that the p'pes had been lying a long time, and
were corroded ; and it was, therefore, only natural that
when the water did come, in the first instance, from Riv-
ington, it should present the discolouration which it did
then, and which, I am sorry to say, it does now. I
expressed at the time my determination that, if upon a
fair trial of the water it still continued to be nnsatis
factory to the inhabitants, I would be prepared to go
• along with the g ntlemen who advocated, in the terms
of the memorial, a double line cf pipes to supply the
two waters to the town If gentlemen want any proof
that the water remains unsatisfactory, they will find it
in the conversations to which they are compelled to
listen to every day of their lives. (Hear, hear) For
my own part, I may say that, day after day, I am
besieged upon 'Change, in the streets, in my office, by
parties who have loud complaints to make of the water.
(Hear, hear) They come down with bottle etter bottle
to my office to represent the condition of the water, as
just drawn from the pipes and cisterns. If you want
further proof, you have it in the able, and, I must
say, candid and truthful report of Mr. Duncan,
cm the question, a report of which, I am somewhat at a loss
to unders and, why it has not been eircelated among the
members of the Council. (LT ar, hear.) Mr. Duncan, in
his report, says distinctly that he entertained a similar
expetation to what the committee did in the first instance
—:hat he locked forward to the time when Ihe water would
become pure and satisfactory, but that he is compelled to
confess that, after the water has been in the Anglezark
reservoir, I believe for some years, he finds the colour as
objectionable, if nut wore a now than it was at the first.
(Hear, hear.) New, if that be the fact, the next question
which comes before us is, how do the Water Committee,
in the present state of feeling in the town of Liverpool in
regard to this supply of water, meet the question ? I am
very happy to-day to find what I eannot help saying is a
very different spirit on the part of the Water Committee
trona what I have ever yet witnessed in the C 'until (Hear,
hear ) I think I see new in the Water Committee a dispo-
sition fairly .nd honestly to meet the case. (Hear, hear.)
They will find their opponents on this question quite pre-
pared to listen to their arguments, and to go along
with them in any projects they have for obtaining a better
supply. I can discover now what I think was wanting
then —a disposition fairly to meet the epiestion. The issue
j before us is u_t this —are we content, are we willing to
meet the difficulty by renewing ,he filtration of the Riv-
ington water, and then supplying it to the town ; or, are
we prepared to go to the expense of a new line of pipes?
To the expense of a new line of pipes. be the expense
what it may, I honestly and fairly believe you will ulti-
mately be driven. (Hear, hear.) But I think we are not
yet driven to that issue in the precise terms in which Mr.
Graves has put the n. If Mr. G ayes means that we are
driven to the ahernative, either of coetinuit g the present
Rivington water, or supplying a new line of pipes ; it he
reeaes by a new line of pipes, an entirely new set of pipes,
ail through the town, on the basis of Mr. Duncan's
recommendation, which would cost i 135,000, Veen I say that
a difficulty does appear in our way, in a financial point of
view, and one which is vary great, and perhaps at the present
m ment insuperable. (Hear, hear) But the amendment
before you, moved by Mr. Jeffery, seeks for a piece of
information of very gre it importance to guide us upon this
question. We are told by Mr Jeffery that certain streets,
very numerous in this town, have already more than one
set of pipes at this moneetr, which he thinks can bo appro-
priated for the purpose; and it is easy to be seen that if
this be the feet, if in the report we now call for it be found
that there is a large number of streets already possessing
double pipes which can be brought into use f u. the purpose
of supplying the well water, the expense could be greatly
reduced, even at the worst, by those facts being ascertained.
It is because I believe that a number of these pipes do
exist in the streets, and will be aeuud applicable to the
purpose, that I shall support Mr. Jeffery's amendment..
Mr. Hornby said if the meaning of Mr. Jeffery's amend-
ment was merely as an instruction to the Water Committee
to procure the reauras he proposed, but not to suspend the
filtra ion experiments, he should cordially support it. But
dies intention were to suspend the attempts which were
being made to ascertain whether the Ilivington water could
ba rendered satisfactory by filtration, then be must oppose
it. He conceived, however, that what ho had first men-
tioned must be the object of the resolution.
Mr. WOODRIIFY thrught that no member of the Water
Committee would object to that part of the amendment
which referred to the returns in regard to the pipeage.
Mr. JEFFERY said, Mr. Hornby had put the right con-
struction upon his amendment.
Mr. Saler could not consent thlt, concurrently with the
carrying out rf the amendment, the committee should
carry on the experiments.
Tne Tows Ceaarc sugges'ed that the Connell should
postpone giving an opinion upon the first of the Waver
Committee's recommendations, declaring the double supp'y
with th• present pipes impracticable ; that the two other
recommendations be confirmed, enabling them to go on
with the experiments, Mr. Jeffery's amendment being
added as an instruction.

Mr MOZLEY concurred in the remarks of Mr. Hornby.
Ha thought it very desirable that the system of experi-
ments should be carried on to ascertain whether the
supply of Riving'on water could be made palatable to the
inhabitants, and that the Water Committee should, in th 3
meantime, supply the la-gist pc:osible quantity of w3ll
water. At the same time, he thought Mr. Jeffery's amend-
ment Should be carried out to the ex,ent of ascertaining
whether, by the present piping the double supply could be
made available.

Mr. COOPER said he would have no objection to under
take that a return shquld be leil upon the C tureen table
at the next meeting. The Water Committee were desirous
of giving all possible information. If their own engineer
could not g'va the information he should be glad to get
it f.orn any other sou .ce.
Mr. JAM CA Hone's said, if a small Committee were ap-
pointed of the gentlemen who opposed the Water Commit.ee
to go into the details with Mr. Duncan, the engineer, they
would see how impracticable were the views they sup•
ported.
Af e r several suggestions had been made for the
modifi tation of the amendment, with • a view to obtain a
unanimous concurrence, Mr. JEFFERY offered to accede to
the alteration sugg,sted by the To, n Clerk. This, how-
ever, did not appear to meet the views of several Members,
and, final'', there ware stvaral calls to settle the question
by a division. The Council accordingly divided upon the
amendment, when there appeared—
For the amendment—Ccuncillors Stitt, Sheil, H3ydock,
MeGaffie, Banner, W. P. Jeffreys, M 'zley, Johnson,
Picton, J. R. Jeffery, li,tchen, and Aikin ; Aldermen—
Bennet, Parker, and Gardner-15.

Against the amendment The Mayor ; C)uneillor3
Woodruff. Littledale, Hornby, Livingston, Steains, Holme,
Graves, Wagstaff, Shand, Brancker, Earle liodscn, Me!lor,
Farnworth, an 1 RThertson ; Aldermen —1331 d,
Cuoper, J. Brarnley-Mocre, M P., and S. Holme— 31.
The amendment was therefore lost.

Mr Alderman BENNETT regretted that they had not
taken up the subject more boldly that morning, and taken
the sense of the Council upon the question of a separate
supply ; for so long as the smallest portion of the Riving-
ton water was allowed to ilo v into the present pipes,
mixed with the spring water, so long would there be that
enormous demand to which Mr. Graves had alluded, and
which, in the middle of the summer, they were told hal
reached 86,000,000 gallons per week. Who could suppose
that anything like two-thirdi of that quantity had been
used ? It was not—it was wasted. It was let out at the
end of the plugs, or was drawn from the cisterns ; for
members of the Water Committee themselves told him that
at that time they emptied their cisterns every morning,
and, he repsated, that so long as they allowed the Riving'on
water to be mixed with the spring water, so long would
that enormous waste exist. (Hear, hear) The chairman
of the Baths' Commit.ea also told him, two days ago, that
they wee now using mu,_h more spring wa'er at the
Cornwallis-street Baths than when they got the spring
water entire.

Hotel, October 17th. Mr. Bennett then read the roDow-
ing letter from Mr. Spencer :

Mr. WAGSTAFF : Put it that we are now using much
more water than when we had only the spring water.
Mr. BENNETT continued : He maintained that they
now used, in the baths, more spring water than
when they had it entire; for they had th 3 water
half and half, and they filled the baths twice as
much and more often than before. Too observations
which applied in this matter of the baths applied also to
all the consumers of water in Liverpool more or less. In
his own house he wanted more water to keep the cistern
clean than he should do hail ho the spring water alone.
He would have to refer to the printed reports of different
gentlemen on this subject, and he not only begged the
attention of the Council to what he would read, but that
the Town Clerk would keep him within the law in his
observations. He would, with their permission, read a
oomcaunication addressed to him, aad dated the Adelehl

Adelphi. Hotel, Oct. 17, 1957.

Sir,—From reliable information that has been conveyod to rric, I
am assured that yon bav3 taken occasion to speak of ma in terms of
the most injurious description.

I %%rite this to give you nt tice the, should I hear of an; farther
public, or even private, attacks on me that ara beyond fair and
allowed professiot-al criticism, I shall have recourse to those means
repress'ng them that are open to me.

To prevent any misapprehension, on your part, I .mean by " fair
and allowable criticism," that when I am found in professional
error, you, or any, hwe a right to prove the fact in an way they
think fit. This much al who tak3 a par, in pubalc a Tairs are liab'e
to, and perhaps have a right to look for. Beyond these bounds there
is ample prutection hr all, and to which I trust you will not cause
me to have recou so. —I am, sir, your's, &c.,
TIIOMAC SPISCEIt.

Wm. Bennet, Esq.
And continued: He hoped that the Town Clerk, in
consequence of th tt communication, would keep him
within the law in the observations whis_h he was about
to make.

The Town Clerk : I am the adviser of the Coueell, and
not of Mr. Bennett (laughter); and as he puts the case
he proposes to commit the off±nce, and then ask me if he
is right. (Laughter.)
Mr. W. Elrle : I hope you will let him go on, sir.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Bennett continued : Mr. llawksley also had made
to him a remark conveying a similar intimation, and also
that he was no longer the servant of the Council. Since
he (Mr. Bennott) came into the Council chamber that
morning he had been sent a bottle of the water as now
supplied to the town. One gentleman said that it came
from some fi thy fellows cistern which was ❑ot kept clean,
and another that it was taken from; the bottom of some
brewer's vat.

Mr.W. Earle: Or from some water closet. (Laughter.)
Mr• Bennett : It came from the cistern of their much-
respected townsman, Mr. William Brown, M.V. Mr.
Bennett hero held up the bottle of water, which was of a
most filth► and disgnst irk; character, and read the follow-
ing letter from Mr. Brown:—

Richmond Hill, 191 October, 1857.

My dea• Sir —I send you a bottle of Pike water, taken out of my
cistern, which holds about I Ode gsllods. It was washed out about a
fortnight ago, and again on Saturday last.
Raymond, my butler, whvattended to it, informs me that there
were several buckets fall eqnal'y impure at the bottom of it. I wild
you would bring it before the Council.
I am far from blaming those gentlemen who were advgcates for its
introduction. Had I been in the Cou -tell, it is more than probable I
would have acted with them, thinking that a large supply cf good
w der was necessary. Manchester succee ied in getting good water
from the Derbylh:re hi 15. Nei her they or any one e'se could pos-
sibly conte nplate that mein foul and living objects could come from
tee Pike, which cannot be u el, except by necessity, either for
culinary purposes cr to drink.
. If it is meant to be continued for any length of time, pray let me
know, for I can re-open a well of excellent water which I have
shoot 12) feet deep, and a-ain use a smell steam-engine to pump
which I gave up when the Green date and Bootle water was delivered
here.

I at upon a Southwark Water Cammiltee some years ago, whon
wale:. of very mile% the same appe irance was ex;tibited to us as
drawn from the Thames opposite London. Powerlwai given to take
a supply many miles up the Thames, where the water is goad ; ;and
I think they have made the change from filthy to pare water.—

Years ever respeetfury, Wm. BROWN.
Wm. Bennett, E-q.
And continued : No v, what became of the sneers and
calumny that had been endeavoured to be cast upon every
one who had ventured and had the courage to show
samples of the water ? (Hear, hear.) Instead of having
had all kinds of severe and untruthful remarks made
upon them, they should have been treated as he hoped
Mr. Brown would be treated on this occasion, with the
respect which their complaints deserved. In some cis-
terns the water was full of aliimalculae, and in others full
of vegetable We. Samples, too, hail been sent to his office,
showing such a state of things that they would be
courageous, indeed, if they dared to continue the supply
of the mixed water in the proportion it had been for a
long period past ; and he should solemnly declare his
belief that there was more water now wasted than was
actually used—(hear, he ir)—and that if the spring water
were alone turned into the pipes, it *would be found an
ample supply ; because the people, once they got the
spring water, would cease to be so excessively wasteful
of it as they were now. He would read, with their per-
mission, a few notes which he had made of M. Hawksley's
observations at a meeting of the committee, on the Ist
October, and also at a subsequent meeting.
An attempt was here made to " count out,' but failed.
Mr. Bennett continued : At the meeting on the Ist of
Oct., Mr. Hawksley said that he always knew that the
water at Rivington would be coloured as much as it was
at present, and that to prevent the discolouration, the
mountains on which the water fell shoul 1 be drained ;
ha did not mean drained is the agricultural, but in the
engineering sense of the term. In other words, that all
the stagnant pools an I ditches should be uut out antidrained, so that after severe showers the district would
be left hare, and not full of water to stagnate and rot. He
also said that the moibtains would then be a great deal
better for pasture, and that he would be glad it there were
thousands more of sheep pasturing in the district—
(laughter)—that filtering beds if made at Liverpool should
be chemical in their action ; that, as regarded the colour,
time would never remove the colour imparted by iron
pipes to soft water; and that the pipes at Whitehaven
had three quarters of an inch of oxide from soft water.
Now he (Mr. Bennett) could inform the council that the
Liverpool pipes wore fast decaying, and that there was
already a large quantity of oxide upon them, in cense
quence of the action of the water. They would then see in
how short a space of time their line of pipes would be de-
stroyed, and not as the chairman had told them, at no
expense to the corporation, but at a very great expense.
because every pound of metal destroyed had to be replayed
at their cost. (Hear, hear.) In the following week Mr.
Hawksley again met the committee and told them that
he hail made up his mind to accept no new engagement as
regarded the Pike, and that he should decline to make
any further report on the subject ; that he did not intend
to be any longer professionally engaged ;in the scheme,
and in the next place that it was impossible for him to
agree with Mr. Duncan's report, bunt that he thought Mr.
Duncan had adopted the best course „for peace and
quietness.• The committee, he further said, could not
expect hire, after spending ten of the past ye.rs of his life
in it, to further engage himself with the duties of the water
supply, that he considered the Prescot reservoir the
proper place for further 61 ration, and with regard to the
question of a double line of pipes, he did not consider
them necessary. and that they would involve the opera-
tions of the cemtnittee in endless trouble and confusion.
In fact, he said they could not carry on their business with
two lines of pipes, and he showed some water which he
said he had brought from Manchester, and with wh•ch
they were there satisfied, though more discoloured than
the water from ltivin'eon (Laughter.) lie (Mr. Bennett)
was delighted with the statements of Mr. Hawksley at
these meeting:3, because there was candour and boldness
in them. Mr. Ilawksley, however, told them that by
two lines of pipes they would get into confusion, and yet
Me. Damian informed them that a supply of well
water, through a new line of pipes, was the most
desirable course of dealing with this vexed ques-
tion, and the only way of meeting the (la -
cuby of the case. One said that it was impossible—
the other that it was not only practicable, but desirable.
He (Mr. Bennett) would also say that there was no
difficulty in it, and, furthermore, that they should return
the spring water into the mains without one day's delay.
Ile had come to that conclusion by carefully looking over
-the reports of Mr. Simpson and Mr. Newlands, and by
obtaining all the information which it was possible for
him to obtain on this important subject since they last
met. He found the yield of the wells, under their control
and in their possession, amounted to 45,000,000 gallons
per week, and that they were obtaining from private
wells an amount equal, in his estimation, to 4,000,000
gallons per week, certainly not less than 3,000,u0i. In
their report, Mr. Simpson arid Mr. Newlands mentioned
the ovvi.ers of those wells, and they also went on to say
that there were, besides, upwards of 700 in stables, milk-
houses, and private dwelling hon=es. He took the private
wells altogether as capable of yielding 21,000,000 gallons
per week, which, added to 45,000,000 gallons
that were obtained from the public wells,
gave them the enormous quantity of 66,000;000
gallons per week for the supply of a town which, taking
the present population at 400,000, gave every man,
woman, and - child in the community an allowance of
upwards of 23 gallons per diem. In all towns supplied by
water works the supply was net expected to be more
than 20 gallons per head per day, but here in Liverpool
they had at this moment, without receiving a drop from
Rivington, a supply of 66,001.000, which was upwards
of 23 gallons per head per day for every inhabitant in the
district. He could then fearlessly and without any dread
of the consequences press the committee to return to the
old supply of spring water. He had no objection to see
the Rivington water made as pure as it was possible to
make it, not that it might be used for drinking purpases,
but that it might be more fit for the uses for which it was
specially applicable. (Hear, hear.) He might para-
phrase the words of the poet, and apply them to it:—

Yon may clJetor. u mly Alter, this water so you will,
But the tint of the bog-wash wiil remain on it still."

(Laughter.) It could never be made palatable to the
ople of Liverpool; and he would, therefore, more as an
amendment that the resslutions of the committee be not
confirmed, but that all the spring water that could be
raised from the public wells be returned to the street
pipes for the town supply, and that the water from
Rivingfon be as soon as po-sible brought, into use for
those purposes for which it was peculiarly adapted.
(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, Mr. Bennet referred to Mr.
Spencer's report, and contended that the discolouration
of the water arose not from " turbidity," as alleged in the
report, but from its own intrinsic character.
Mr. Haydcck seconthd the amendment.
" Mr. Banner at great length, and amid much impatience
on the part of many members, addressed the Council in
support of Mr. Bennett's amendment. He denied that
there were any complaints of insufficient supplies of water
made while the Council were supplying the well water to

THE NORTITERN TIMES. LIVERPOOL, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20, 1857.

the town, with the addition of the Green-lane works.
(Oa, oh.) He contended that the Council were not at
present complying with the terms of the act of parliament,
which directed them to supply pure and wholesome water.
He remembered that Mr. James Holme once said that if
the Council were dissatisfied with the Rivington scheme
they CO 'ld at any time procure for the works £2 for every
£1 they had laid out. He could only say that he would be
very glad if they could get 203. in the pound.
Mr. COOPFR —So you may.
Mr _BANNER was very glai to hear it, and did not think
there was any member of the Council who would not vote
with the greatest gladnesa to get rid of the works on those
terms. He contended that the Committee were unable to
pay the interest upon the banded money they had nised,
and were now raising other bonded money to pay it off.
Mr. Cooeaa denied that such was the fact.
Mr. BANNER —I take it upon your own showing.
Mr. COOPFR—I don't care what you show. (Laughter).
Mr. BANNER contended that the accounts would prove
what he had asserted.
_ _

Mr EARLE said many gentlemen in -the room had impor-
tant business to attend to, and he appealed to those around
him if there were not certain individuals there whose
speeches were insufferably tiresome. (Laughter). Tliy
went winding, and winding on, telling the same thing
over and over again, which the Council had heard many
times. A sensible speech like that of Mr. Graves they
were all glad to listen to, but it was the insufferable twad-
dle, twaddle he objected to—twaddle, twaddle, twaddle,
and nothing else. (Laughter). Mr. Banner was pre-
eminent in that way. (Laughter). He recommended to
Mr. Parker a few lessons in elocution before he attempted
a speech. (Laughter). He was sorry his friend Mr.
Brown had written the le ter which had been read. and he
could not consider it a wise step. He pointed to a
specimen which had been taken out of the same place,
within the last hour. as a contrast to that produced. It
was no wonder Mr. Banner recollected all about the
Harrington works, considering the lumping sum which
was git for them. (Laughter.) That was a great blot upon
the escutcheon. He was not sure that Mr. Banner had
not bought up some shares then.
Mr. BANNER : Mc. Mayor, I object to this.
Mr. EARLE : Oh, you did not then, sir ?
Mr. BANNER : Mr. Mayor, this is personal.
The MAYOR : I must call Mr. Earle to order.
Mr. EARLE : Very well. I have often heard it said, but
I suppose it is not true. He said this fearlessly, that the
Harrington works were not able to supply the people of
Liverpool with suffi.tient water of good quality, and he
regretted exceedingly that the promoters of the Pike
scheme did not go for a private company, and supply the
Rivirgton water for half the price of the other.
Mr. BANNER : You attempted it, but the House of
Commoni would rot listen to it.

Mr. EARLE: I beg Mr. Banner's pardon, I did not
aptly individu
Me. BANNER : Not individually, but you supported it.
Mr. EARLE then referred to Mr. Bennett's speech, and
remarks I that that gentleman talked and smiled with that
self compla ency which belongs l to a man so self-conceited
who be.ieved himself superior to every other man there.
(Oh, oh.)
Mr. BtNNETr : Oh, that is personal.
Mr. EARLE : You fully deserve it.
Mr. BENNETT : I call apon Mr. Earle to withdraw that
remark.

Mr. E.kRLE : Well, then, you are not complacent, and
you do not think well of yourself. (Laughter) You
never gave any opinion which shews that you think well of
yours If. (Laughter.) Mr. Earle, in conclusion, said, he
was not surprised that gentlemen had to be solicited to
enter that Council, where there was such a great amount
of public business to be done, which was continually
impeded by such a quantity of ta'k.
Mr. ANDERSON' ur.ed that, as prudent men, they should
try further experiments befire pro eeding to lay down a
second line of pipes, iu estimating the expanse of whirl,
he believed &r. Duncan was very mach under the mark.
Tie believed that there was nothing injurious in the water
despite its cclonr
Mr. J. IfoLmit said he would co -fees he was much dis-
appointed with the colour of the water, but as to the
quantity and the quality of the wollo, there could not be
a difference of opinion. Ile was also willing to admit
that he, for one, had been completely deceived as to the
cost, but Mr. Banner was wrong in stating that they had
cost £1,500,000. The cst of the, works up to the present
time, including stoppage of leaks, &c., was, cash paid,
£744,000.
Mr J. B. JEFFERY : I will meet you on that point,
and ack for a committee to inquire into the accuracy of the
statement.

Mr. J.Elomtz replied that he had got the figures from Yr.
White, and that that gentleman would not nave furnished
them unless c( nvinced of their correctness. The question,
however, for consideration now, was As to th,l manner in
which the water could be ramie more useful, and he would
ask them whether it would be wise or prudent to reject
Mr. Duncan's plan of filtration without a trial, and plunge
at once into the expense of laying a second line of pipes?
All the committee asked, was that they miglit be permitted
to make those experiments,and thsn,if the water did not turn
ou to be what they could approve of, he would be an advo-
for a second line of pipes. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Duncan
informed him that, at the present time, there were only
t.n miles of pipes which could be converted to the use of
a second supply, and Mr. Banner forgot that since the
Harrington works were purchased the water supply was
extended to the out-townships, and now reached as far as
Waterloo and Woolten. (Hear, hear.) The old supply
would not be sufficient to be distributed over such an
area, and it was therefore absurd to propose to return to it,
and to it alone. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROBERTS us GLADS TONE said, there appeared to him
to be one decided objection to Mr. Bennett's proposal,
that, inasmuch as in all human probality the supply from
the red sandstone would be inadequate, there wou'd then
be nothing left but the Rivington water. He believed that
water to be at present, without any process of filtration,
unfit for drinking and house purposes. He urged, never-'
theless, that some further experiment should be made to
see if that supply could not be made satisfactory. At the
same time, he thought the public h .d a right to complain,
that when the Committee were allowed from May until
August to produce a report upon that very subject, no
conclusive report had yet been produced by them.
Mr. WOODRUFF supported the recommendation of the
Committee.

Mr. Meeeon also supported the Committee.
Mr. &Ina, regretted that so much time had bean spent
in R discussion which had only become more confused and
unintelligible after every epeech. (Laughter.) He was
quite willing to give the committee all reasonable time to
determine ho the R:vington water cou'd be improved, but
they had already had since last May, and yet had done
nsthing. '(Hear, hear.) He thought that they should now
fix some time whin they would be prepared finally to
report on the matter.
Mr. Alderman HOLME maintained, in opposition to Mr.
Bennett and other speakers, that 46,000,000 gallons per
week was the ext-etno amount that cou'd be got from the
public wells, and that the Quantity could only be procured
by exhausting the surrounding district. (Hear, hear.) He
declared that he would be no party for laying an ad :itional
tax, however small, in reward to water, on the inhabitants
until all that science and experience could suggest had
been tried and failed in rendering the Rivington water as
pure in colour as it was excellent in quality. He denied
that a d able set of pipes could be laid down at the cost
estim ted by Mr. Jeffery and Mr Bennett ; and maintained
that if they sent a paper round, they wou'd not get 7,000
people ia.all Liverpool to enter into an agreement to pay
15s. a-year extra LT, the double supply, and that they
would get still fewer to carry the double service pipe at
their own cost into their houses, even if the spring water
were brought to their very doors. In conclusion, Mr.
Holme briefly recapitulated the arguments which he has
so often urged on this question, and maintained that the
old supply was insufficient for the present, putting outside
altogether the future wants of ,he town.
The amendment was then pit to the vote and lost by 10
to 25. The voting was as follows :
For the amendment—Aldermen Bennett, Parker, and
Gardner ; Councillors Stitt, Sheil, Haydock, Nicholson,
Banner, J. R. Jeffery, and Beckwith-10.
Against—The Mayor ; Aldermen Bold, Cooper, Hough-
ton, and S. Holme ; Councillors Anderson, Woodruff,
Li tledale, Turner, Hornby, Livingston, Steains, J Holme,
Graves, Sh,nil, Gladstone, Earle, Johnson, Hodson, Mellor,
Aikin, Clint, Farnworth, Robertson, and Anthony-25.
Mr. AIKIN then moved, as an amendment, that the last
part of the resolution cf the Water Committee, in regard
to granting the largest possible supply of spring water, be
confirmed, and that the remainder stand over for another
special Council, to be held on an early day in November,
to receive from the committee a report on the various
modes of filtration proposed by Mr. Duncan, Mr. Hawks-
ley, and others, with samples of the water so filtered, the
estimated cost and annual expense of each plan, and the
time required for carrying it into effect. He complained
that the discussion had criginated in the vagueness with
which the resolutions of the committee were worded, and
that ti was only by extreme pressure that any information
in regard to tie water could be extracted from them. •

Mr. CLtcT seconded the amendment.
Mr HORNET denied that it required pressure to extract
from the committee any information. Whatever informa-
tion they became possessed of was always communicated
to the Council. He could bee no difference between the
amendment and the resolutions which had already recom-
mended that that course be pursued which the amendment
itself called for. _

A very irregular discussion then ensued, the irregularity
being increased by Mr. Ald erras.nßennett alleging that the
committee, on many occasions, wilfully omitted from their