The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-05-28 00:00:00

SPECIAL COUNCIL.

The special meeting of the Council, to consider the
reports of the Water Committee, and the Water Engineer,
was held in the Town Hall, yesterday, at eleven o'clock.
The Mayor, Francis Shand, Esq., presided.
The Mayor briefly introduced the object of the meeting,
and expressed a hope that the members would confine
themselves as ranch as possible to the question, and
endeavour to arrive at a practical conclusion.

THE LIVERPOOL TOWN DUES•

Before the Council proceeded to the special object of the
meeting,

Mr. Picton rose and said : Mr. Mayor, it has always
been customary in this Council, that any question relating
to a matter of privilege should take precedence of every
thing else. I feel it my duty, on the present occasion, to
bring before the Council a document which I have seen
published in the newspapers, emanating from the Board
of Trade, in a report upon the bills now before parliament,
affecting our local rights, and especially the town dues.
(Hear, hear.) There is such an amount of gross misre-
presentation (I can give it no other term) now going on,
such one-sidedness, such an appearance of a foregone
conclusion of a determination, anyhow and every way. to
deprive us of the property which has been secured to us
both by purchase. by act of parliament, and by legal in-
vestigation, that I think, under present circumstances, we
are called upon, in our capacity as guardians and trustees
for the Liverpool public, to take some steps publicly in
reference to this matter. (Hear, hear). It has, as you
are aware, been stated openly and publicly, both in com-
mittees of the House of Commons and in the public press,
that there is an amount, not to say of apathy, but of actual
hostility, in the town of Liverpool towards the Liverpool
Town Dues ; that public feeling in Liverpool is, in fact,
rather against the continuance of those dues than in their
favour. That has been stated openly and broadly. Now,
if we allow the ease to go by default—if we take no
public means to exhibit the matter in its true point of view,
and to set aside the gross misrepresention which exists
upon it, we shall be acknowledging what our opponents
say. (Hear, hear). Ott the former occasion, when
this matter was brought before parliament, the Council
will recollect that we took energetic measures. We held
a public meeting, probably one of the largest which was
ever held for town purposes within the memory of man.
We petitioned parliament, and the result, as we all know,
was favourable to the rights of the town of Liverpool; and
there can be no question, but that the energetic steps which
were taken upon that occasion had a very p werful influence
in producing that result. (Hear, hear.) I believe, sir,
that it is our duty, as represen!ing the public of Liverpoo`,
to take active measures upon the present occasion, and to
strengthen the hands of the gentlemen who arc in the
position of the Finance Committee and other capacities
connected with the Council, now engaged in fighting our
battles. (Hear, hear.) Ido not presume to say in what
manner that should be done, whether by public meeting
or by petition, signed by yourself, as our chief magistrate,
or in whatever other way may be thought desirable: lam
not quite prepared to say now what would be the best
way—indeed, I should scarcely presume to do so ; but I
really think that, under the present circumstances, some
strong and energetic steps ought to be taken. (Hear.)
Having thus brought the matter before the Council, I
shall submit it to those who will, perhaps, display more
knowledge and capacity than myself.
Mr. Ald. S. Holmes : I have not read thereport to which
Mr. Picton alludes, for I only arrived in town last night,
after an absence of a couple of days. But all I can say
is, that without discussing the question at present, the
importance of which I fully admit, I think, rather than
enter into a discussion now, and feeling much obliged to
Mr. Piston for having called the attention of the Council
to such an important subject, I may undertake to com-
municate at once with the gentlemen now in London, and
with the Town Clerk, and I trust some active steps may be
taken.

Mr. Pieton read passages from the report of the Board
of Trade, which has already been published, in reference
to the Mersey Conservancy BM.

Mr. Eirle-: It is all tro-m Lowe, I dare say..

The Chairman said the committee in London were of
course perfectly instructed as to all the statements made in
the report. Such an attempt to prejudice a great public
question, affecting such important interests,b.ad never been
made before to the same extent. (Hear, hear.) He should
be very glad to take any part, in reference to the question,
which the Council should deem necessary.
Mr. James Holme thought it would be as well that
parties in fiondon should be aware who composed the
members of the Dock Committee sent in by the Council.
He believed he, himself, was the only instance of a trades-
man sent there by the Council. When he mentioned the
names of Mr. Clint, Mr. Mann, Mr. Bold, Mr. Gladstone,
Mr. Halhead, Mr. Littledale, Mr. Robinson, and Mr.
Anderson, he thought those names would at once furnish
a full justification of what the Council had done. (Hear,
hear.) Although only a tradesman, he (Mr. Holme) was
interi.sted, perhaps, iu as much property as any man in
Liverpool, and he hoped that while occupying a seat at
that committee be had not only the interests of commercial
men, but of the whole town of Liverpool at heart. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. Fernihough said he could speak as to the feeling of
the tradesmen generally, since he had occupied a seat in
that Council. He could state that whenever they had
been selecting members for the Dock Committee, at what
some might call " Caucus" meetings, it had been the inva-
riable rule to select some merchant to send to that com-
mittee.

The subject was then allowed to drop.
TEE WATER QUESTION.

Mr. Alderman Bennett said : Mr. Mayor, we are now
about to discuss a most important subject, and upon the
determination at which we shall arrive much of the health
and comfort of the town will depend. We have here
specimens of the water from different portions of the water
sheds, selected by the officers of the Water Committee.
They are in glass bottles, and can easily, and jet a very
few minutes, be placed upon the table ; then gentlemen
will have an opportunity of judging for themselves as to
the truth of the remarks which will be made upon the
quality and colour of the water. I beg to move that you
permit the bottles to he placed on the table.
The Chairman : I cannot see that bringing a parcel of
bottles of water here can really forward the proceedings.
(Rear, hear.) The samples are all in the ante-room for
the inspection of every member of the Council; but to
bring them here upon the table would only lead to much
ccntention, and to no practically beneficial result. (Rear,
hear.)

Mr. Bennett: My object is to prevent discussion, as I
contend the bottles will speak for themselves.
Mr. Robertson : When were the samples taken?
Mr. Bennett : About a fortnight ago.
Mr. Robertson : Then they are not fair samples.
Mr. J. R. Jeffery : I submit that in all fairness Mr.
Bennett's request should be acceded to, or that the bottles
now on the table should be withdrawn.
The Chairman : If I had seen them before I should have
requested them to be taken away.

Mr. Jeffery : It is only to be desired that the Council
should be informed of what the water really is, which we
are to discuss here to-day.
Mr. Earle : That is the water you are really drinking ;
that in those bottles on the table.

The Chairman : If the samples are produced here there
will only be assertion against assertion. There will be
different battles produced, and one gentleman will say,
"this is the water," and another will say "that is the
water," and no decision can b 3 arrived at.

Mr. Hodson : Mr. Jeffery has said we dare not show
the samples.
Mr. Jeffery : I do say so.
Mr. Hodson : Then I wish them to be placed upon the
table. There is nobody more anxious than myself that
the question should be fairly discussed to-day, and that we
should come to some determination. So far as I am myself
concerned, I am prepared to meet the question.
The Chairman : Then I decline to have the bottles
placed upon the table. There are several waters said to
be samples of the same water, and they may differ very
much, from causes which no man here can explain. It
would only lead to wrangling, and I therefore decline to
allow the bottles to be placed upon the table.
Mr. Alderman Cooper then proceeded to move the con-
firmation of the proceedings of the committee, which ha
been held over for the special Council. These proceedings
consisted of two resolutions, which have been already pub.
lished, in reference to the report of the water engineer,
upon the memorial from the inhabitants of the town. The
first resolution, dated 30th of March, stated that the com-
mittee could not recommend that so large an additional
expenditure as that stated to be necessary, should be
entered into for the purpose of supplying well water,
until much more satisfactory proofs could be
established than at present existed that the water from
Rivington would not eventually be sufficiently
pure for every purpose whatever. The second
resolution, dated the Ist of May, recommended that a copy
of the report be sent to each member of the Council, but
stated that the committee saw no reason to deviate from
the resolution of the 30th of March. Mr. Cooper, in
moving the confirmation, said he regretted to say that the
committee could not, upon financial grounds, recommend
the Council to go to an expense of £165,000. Neither
could they at the present moment recommend that the
owners of property in the town of Liverpool should be
put to the additional expense of £70,000 at least in get-
mg a double row of pipes. Their desire was that the
Council should have confidence in the committee for a
short period longer. The water from the upper reservoir
would be ready to be impounded in July, and in September
or October next, the works would be completed. He
therefore thought it would be but an act of justice to the

inhabitants of the town, and also an act of justice
to the committee, that the whole of the water from that
district should be brought into Liverpool. The
water of that district would cover nearly 4,000 acres, and
the produce of water would be 84 millions of gallons per
day. He was informed also that the water of that upper
reservoir was very superior, that there was less peat there
than in the other district, and that the town would probably
have better water from it than from all other p trts.
Again, the question was envolved of destroying their
magnificent streets. He was sure Mr. Gladstone would join
with him in thinking that that would be the effect of
taking up the pavement; and putting down two additional
rows of pipes in all the large streete. They had already
two rows of water pipes in each street, to prevent the
necessity of having pipes crossing the streets to the houses
and also two rows of gas pipes for the same reason. If the
proposal of the memorialists were carried out, they must
put two additional rows of pipes ; and he would ask any
gentleman present whether, looking at the manner in
which the streets had been put down, and at the expence
which would be involved, ought they not to pause a little
before they committed such an act of destruction ?
He was sure Mr. Gladstone would agree with him
that he never knew a street to be taken up a second time
of which the foundation was afterwards steady, and which
did not taillike to be taken up again and repaved. The
streets had already been taken up over and over again, and
paved over and over again. Then, he contended, there was
a very easy remedy. If any gentleman in the town hap-
pened to be at the head of a pipe in any portion of the
town where the water was riot satisfactory, he could have
a filter for 253. The people of Manchester had got fitters
which perfectly removed all objection ; and if any gentle-
Man applied a filter to the end of the pipe, he would get
all the water his family would want perfectly purified. The
Council had visited Rivington, and no doubt considerable
information then collected would be laid before the meet-
iug to day. He should not occupy any more of their time
at present, but should reserve himself for a reply, if
neussary.
Mr. Earle seconded the motion.

Mr. Alderman Bennett said—Mr. Mayor, I hope it will
not be the pleasure of the Council to confirm the recom-
mendation of the Water Committee. They wish us to wait
until we have more satisfactory proof than at present that
the water will not answer all the purposes for which the
promoters intended to use it. Sir, I am fully satisfied
in my own mind that the water never will do so—that the
water from Rivington never will be satisfactory to the
inhabitants of Liverpool ; that whether it were in January
last, or whether it be in May of the present year, or the
May of the next year, or the May of the year following, the
water will be for drinking purposes equally objectionable
as it is at present. Neither can the chairman of the
Water Committee prove by analogy, or prove in any way
to our saisfaction, that it will not be as stated by me. So
convinced is he of that, sir, that he wishes to make what
is strictly speaking, a question of life and death, into a
question of poute?s, shillings, and pence; and his first and
strongest argument against any further outlay for the
separation of the qualities of the water is the expense. The
committee are not prepared to recommend any further e a-
Foiditure of the money, not being in a position to meet
the additional engagewents. So it appears, sir, that
upon the low ground of money we are to be compelled to
drink water which I will engage to say eight out of every
ten of the inhabitants of Liverpool would object to drink !
Ho wishes that the town, and, of course, the Council, should
have further confidence in the Water Committee, and
should wait until the upper reservoirs are completed, as he
is under the impression that the water from that district
would be of a better quality. In that expectatation, I
contend that he is entirely mistaken, as all gentlemen who
have visited the distract can be prepared to state for them-
selves. We have recently, sir, as you are aware,
been over the district, and the water taken by
my friend Mr. Woodruff, at my request, during a
dry season, from the purest part of what is re-
ported to be the purest stream of that portion, and at the
time when the water in it was purest, I declare to be, so
far as my eye could distinguish colour, quite as dark as
that which you have impounded in the Anglez irk and
Rivington reservoirs. How then are we to hope? What
ground is there for hope that the water from the uppar district
will be of a better quality than that which has been already
impounded? The chairman of the Water Committee has
also put the question of expense in another form, com-
bining with it the inconvenience of re-paving the streets.
That argument, however, is not the question which the
Comeil leave to consider to-day. The question is, whether
du( water is fit for the inhahitatits of Liverpool to drink ?
If It can be proved that it is so, then there is no necessity
for aey further outlay in taking up the streets. If it be
shown that the water is not fit for drinking, then the
question of taking up the streets, and incurring the
expense of an additional line of pipes should not be a
subject of consideration at all to-day. (Hear, hear.) The
chairman of the committee has told us, also, that
there is an easy remedy in the use of the filters. But he
does not show us the application, or how to get over the
difficulty of inducing all parties to use them, especially
among the poor and the lower orders, who are the largest
drinkers of water, and the greatest number in amount.
Are we to have water given to the public which the rich
man can improve and the poor man cannot? Are we
prepared to recommend a course which will not
distribute good water alike to the whole of
those who have to pay for it ? Are we to
have one quality for the poor man, and another for the
rich? Besides, what does filtration effect? It merely
takes out what is in suspense in the water. That which
is chemically combined with it remains as injurious as
before filtration. Mr. Esrle's scheme of filtration
reminds me of the conduct of the ostrich in the
wilderness—because it hides its head in the sand of the
desert, it imagines that its body is safe. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) So Mr. Earle would filtrate the water, because
his eye is not conscious of the impurity, he ventures to
expose his body to its influence.
Mr. Earle : How philosophic. (Laughter.)
Mr. Bennett : Now, sir, I maintain that the water from
Rivington has not been, and cannot bo good potable water
for the inhabitants of Liverpool. I have been over the
district very frequently, with the hope of finding bright
features in it ; with the hope that my anticipations might
not be realized ; with the hope that all might be realized
which we had heard in this room from eminent men and
leading members of the council, that the water
would come here in quantity without limit ; in
purity superior to most waters ; in color 'bright,
and limpid. All these assertion have been over and over
again stated, but how have the facts borne them out ? In
every instance have the promoters of the scheme been
most woefully disappointed. The district is of that charac-
ter that the water from it could never be pure. There
are many scores of acres of bog land, which must remain
bog land as long as the water falls upon it. There are
sources of impurity existing over the water shed to as large
an amount as ever I saw, except where a large town
covered the whole of it, in any other district. From the
number of inhabitants and animals around, and from
many other sources of impurity, the water comes down into
the reservoirs in as filthy a state as the water impounded
in the reservoirs themselves. I understand that about
sixty acres out of 200 in the bed of the reservoir are peat
—peat to a great depth—peat which the new-found body
of water passes over, and the gases exuding from the mass
of peat all over the bed are contaminating it with im-
purity. Many methods have been suggested, and many
schemes put forward, for remedying this evil. But,
although the Water Committee have been exceedingly
active in endeavouring to find a remedy, I have heard of
nothing at all likely to accomplish the object. One gentle-
man tells us that if we allow the water in the Anglezark
' reservoir to remain, acquatic plants will grow in it, which
men of botanical science say will, in twelve or eighteen
months, extract the colouring from the water. I answer
those gentlemen,: that the Anglezark reservoir has had
water in it much longer than that time, and it is now of a
darker colour than ever it has been since I first visited the
works. In January, when the water first came, we had
the engineer's report, stating that he had visited portions
of the town supplied with Rivington water ; and but in
one instance did he find it slightly discoloured. Mr.
Woodruff brought specimens of water from the filter beds
at Rivington, which he told us his friends could not dis-
tinguish from the clear water from the springs, and we
were then told that the water would go on improving.
Let Mr. Woodruff bring water from the sarnsl
quarter now, ald ask his friends if they can distinguish
it from the spring, water, The water has materially
altered for the worse. At first the reservoirs were clean, and
care was taken to have slow filtration. Now, however, the
water in the filter beds is of a darker colour than it was
three months ago, and we have yet to contend with the
heats of summer, and what will it be then ? My friend,
Mr. Fernihough, and myself had a bottle, which we
filled from the reservoir from time to time, and I will ask
him and all who saw it, whether that water was fit to
drink ? He also tried to deceive me by putting some
snuff into one of the samples. Some snuff—(laughter)
But I soon detected the cheat, as it was quite bad enough
without putting snuff into it. (Hear, hear.) Amongst
other impurities we found, as we dipped the vessels into
the sides of the reservoirs, some of the most gross and dis-
gusting kinds— (hear, hear)—and a collection of black
filth, as bad as I ever saw taken from the St. George's
dock basin. That filth will soon become the coating of
the bottom of our reservoirs. Well, now with regard to
the supply. We have the water now at Liverpool (the
Pike water), mixed with some 30,000 or 35,000 gallons of
spring water. But, in that mixed state, even then the
water was not allowed to go into the public baths, for the
chairman of the Baths' Committee had ordered their
own men to be instructed to turn on the engine
at Windsor, and have the baths supplied with the pure
spring water, Even he did not think that the mixed

. „ . . . . .
water from Rivington was fit for the inhabitants to bathe
in, and therefore it was that he thought that the spring
water should be supplied again in order that the
public might have the luxury of bathing. (Hear.) Now,
it was a fact that St. Paul's-street, and the Cornwallis-
street baths have had supplied to them pure spring water.
Therefore; be said, by that, the water that was supplied
to the people was not fit for bathing the body, but
it was fit for drinking purposes. The water was not fit to
wash the body' in, but some gentlemen thought it was
good enough for the people to drink.
Mr. Wagstaff: He only wanted to: please the eye.
Mr. Bennett : The chairman of the Water Committee is
a practical man, he is a man of great experience, and he
was born within a few 'miles of the Pike, aed there.spent
his early years, and what did he say. Why, he told us
years ago that the Pike water would not do. (Hear, hear.)
He told us, then,, that we must have two lines of pipes.
Since then. I have mentioned it to him, and I am sure he is
too much a man of honour to deny it. Now, would Mr.
Cooper after that tell U 3. that the water supplied to this
town at the present time_
.was
.fit to drink ? There
had been many schemes. proposed—some suggested
that the supply should be from :the Rivington, works for
two days in the week, and others that it shonld be three,
and some had-said that it should be supplied for commercial
and manufacturing purposes.on alternate days; but none—
no, not 'one—of, those gentlemen who had made such -a
proposition had come forward and said that the water was
fit to drink. (Hear, heat..) Then -there wassanather test
—the Press of Liverpool; they all went on one side, or
remained silent on the Subject. There. hal not been one'
editor of any of the newspapers, in any of the numerous
articles that had appeared, who had . ever maintained that
the water was fit for drinking purposes. On that point
they had all remained silent, and ,-the correspondence
those papers had been of the same character. That, in
itself, was argument sufficient against the present supply,
without going any further. A few days ago I felt it my
duty to visit the Prescot reservoir, which, as it was well
known, was of considerable extent, including nearly thirty
. acres: 1 had a wish .to try the quality of. the water at
that point, because,. it was there that ,the waters
form the Rivington pike were impounded.. Well, when
there, I was astonished to find that the water was six feet
below what it had beenn few days before. I inquired the
reason, arid was told by one of the men in the employ ofshe
committee that it was in consequence of a leakage in.one
of the main pipes to Ashton, which had taken place. Well,
there had been two meetings of the committee, and net a
word had.beeniaid on that subject. No, not a word, although
some much more trifling affairs were alluded to and dis—
cussed. So that had it not been. for the other reservoir,
the people of Liverpool would have been kept without a
supply of water for three days and four nights, as that was
the time it took to make the necessary repairs. ' Well, one
Of the servants of the corporation filled my battle with the
water from that reservoir, and it would show the state it
was in at that time. I have a sample of it here, and I hope
every member of the council will examine it before'
he gives - vote on this day, as it would
.help him to come to a decision on the subject.
This is the colour of the water. [Here Mr.- Bennett
'exhibited a specimen of the water.] It Contains animal-
cula large enough to be detected with the eye—without
glasses. , (A Voice : "Has it been filtered ?") It was
filtered at Rivington, and the sample 'was taken by one; of
the Corporation's own 'servants ; and I will pledge my
honour that it is in the same state as it was when it was
first taken. I had another sample ; aid I was asked,
" How long have you had that eample ?" and I said
fOurteen days ; and, thinking that might be considered too
long, I had another sample taken three days ago, and I will
answer that all the water in the reservoir was in the same
state, and I do-think that the committee will be guilty of an
act f temerity if they come forward and say that the water
was fit, or that they could recommend it, for drinking pur-
poses. Well, before he came into this room, he had seen
a statement in one of the newSpapers, to which
he. wished to allude, which he would read. You
are all aware that Mr. Hawksley - was examined
before a committee of the House of Commons,
and yesterday he. made the following observations in
answer to Mr. Scott : He said :—• •

" I propose that additional water pipes, to the extent of
forty miles, shall be laid down within the the next fiva
years. Birkenhead is moat favourably situated for a sup-
ply of water. The water obtained there no 77 is very good
and soft, being only five degrees of hardness.
" 4r. Rope Scott : As good, for instance, as the Pike
supply at Liverpool.
" Mr. Hawksley : Yes ; and I am sorry to see that to-
morrow there is to be a special meeting of the Liverpool
Town Council, to consider whether they will expend
1200,000 more is getting water from the red sandstone,
independent of the present supply from the Pike.
" Mr. Hope Scott : That.,is, the Liverpool people want
one set of mains to shave with, and another to drink—
and very proper.

_
" Mr. Calvert : The, town dues will pay all,"
Now, Mr. Calvert showed great-ignorance when he said
that the expenses of 'this scheme would have to be taken
from the town dues • and when he stated that the
£200,000 would be taken front the town dues, he must
have known that he was stating that which was false.
(Cries of "No.") It would not cost the Council one far-
thing in getting the water. But, what Mr. Hawksley
should have said, was not the getting of the water, but the
scheme was for the distribution thereof. But he told the
committee it would cost £200,000 for " getting" the
water. (Cries of " order, order.)
The Mayor 1. do not think that Mr. Ilawksley was
guilty of telling a falsehood, but he may have fallen into
an error.

Mr. Bennett : But it was prejudicial to the town dues.
Well, gentlemen, the report we have met to consider
to-day, is founded on a memorial, signed in a few
days by no less than 3,000 of the inhabitahts, but whe-
ther it was signed by 3,000 or 30,000, it did not
iu the leest affect the case; but out of those 3,000 signa-
tures, there were t Nenty-four or twenty-five of the names
of the most eminent medical men in Liverpool, and they
recommended that there should be a separate supply—the
one for manufacturing purposes, and the other for dietary
purposes. Ho then went on to say that Mr. Duncan bad
not reported on the subject he was asked by the memo-
rialists, but had gone into a plan that was irrelevant, and
concluded by moving the following resolution, which he
hoped would not only be carried by a majority, but that it
would receive the sanction of every memirer of the Council.
It was—" That the Rivington water is not satisfactory to
the inhabitants of the town for dietary purposes, and that
it was, therefore, desirable that they should have the red
sandstone supplied to them, and that the Water Committee
be instructed to give effect to this resolution."
Mr. J. R. Jeffery said : I rise, sir, to second the motion
which has been so lucidly proposed by Mr. Bennett. I had
hoped that our time would be spared, and that the patient
endurance of the public would be no longer trespassed on
by the Water Committee. After the visit to the Riving-
ton district on a recent occasion, by some members of that
committee and of the Town Council, witnessing as they
did the water first in the reservoir, then in the goit leading
to the filter beds, and finally, after it had passed through
the filter beds into the distributing reservoirs. There is
no man who regrets and deplores more than he who now
addresses you, that the whole scheme has proved a most
untoward and most unfortunate undertaking. I believe
that every gentleman representing the public, has upon this
question been misled. I believe that ,e has been mis-
taken. It was entered upon with the very best possible
intentions, and there can be no doubt that it has resulted
in a disappointment so much the greater. Every promise,
I venture to say, has failed. Every prediction, .1
venture to state, has been falsified ; and nothing that
was hoped for has been realised. Now, sir, I am
quite conscious that I am speaking in the presence
of gentlemen well acquainted with the subject, and
that I am making very strong assertions, but I am
prepared by facts that have been realised in the pro-
gress of the works to prove that every word that I am
stating is correct. If I refer to the question of cost, it
amounts to at least three times what was contemplated.
If I refer to the plan of bringing the water from the
great store-ground into the houses of the inhabitants of
Liverpool, I say that plan was an abortion, it has been en-
tirely changed. It was therefore a delusion practised upon
the inhabitants when they were told that the water would
be brought from the filter-beds unexposed to the atmosphere
or sun ; that it would be so brought to Kensington, then
raised in a stand pipe about eighty feet in height, and carried
from that height to the houses in the locality, protecting
those houses, in case of need, against the ravages of fire.
I say that stand-pipe is a myth, and the whole thing has
been an unfortunate undertaking. So far as I have been
able to gather, from information given to me on the spot,
even the question of quantity is likely to be somewha like
the stand-pipe—not ,there ; and as to the question of
quality and colour, I am sure I am speaking now in the
presence ofeome members of the Water Committee who have
stated most frankly that they are disappointed in the colour,
least, of the water. I do then ask the Water Committee,
as I believe them to be a body of honourable gentlemen,
to admit their failings, and appeal to the Council and sa),
we are as we are—we have spent our money—we under-
took what we believed would ultimately prove, as we
were led to hope it would be,.a most desirable project for
the community of Liverpool—we have been misled—it has
not proved what we anticipated. We ask you, therefore,
as a committee, to assist us under the circumstances in doing
the best we can, in order to turn the expenditure we have so
incurred to the best possible account." If the Water Com-
mittee now come forward and make that appeal, I
for one will respond, " with all my heart will I assist
you." But, sir, they have not done so ; the question
that is to be decided this day, is, whether the com-
munity is to have forced upon them, which so
many, and their name is legion, object to? , A question

then arises, is their objection valid ? Is it without
foundation ? •Is it without cause, or does it
arise from caprice ? I do not think that any
gentleman will say. that the 3,000 signatures to that
Memorial originated in either of those causes, and I believe
in my conscience that if that memorial had not. been pre-
sented when it was, that if it were now in process of
signature, that, instead of 3,000 signatures, it would
receive ten times that number and that if the same
measures were resorted to that were employed to
obtain sigoatures in support of the scheme, I believe that
we should have three times twenty thousand signatures
aktaehed to the memorial ; for gentlemen must recollect
that before this scheme was entered on, all the police force
were employed going from door to door soliciting signa-
tares and asking the people it they desired a plentiful
supply of cheap, clear, end besutiftil' water: Any one
might guess what would b othe natural response to such a
question. Now, it would require ne such exaggeration as
that, because it was exaggeration, to procure even
a larger number -of signatures to, the memorial now
before you. Circumstances had since proved that
the bright prospect then held oat could -not: be realised,
though no doubt, the; Water CommiAee of that day
believed all they had been told, and adopted the words of
otheri who were then inexperienced, but who hdve since
acquired notoriety through the experience they obtained
at the cost of the corporate fund ofdaiverpool 'Atia allow
-me to, tell you that the-public are waiting most patiently
and most anxiously for the decision of this Ceuneil this
day, and if it be in favour of the resolution of the Water
Committee, there are gentlemen out of doors wit-) are pre-
pirei at'once to call a :Public meeting of the inhabitants,
that their voice maybe heard on this question in a legiti-
mate an I proper manner. Gentlemen lie waited on me
-during the time title memorial has -been under the eon-
sideration of tile Council, to ask my opinion what they
should do. Whether : they should at once call; a
public meeting, that the Council might perfectly under-
stead what . was . the •general . feeling oat of doors,
because they were labouring under th-e_ impression that
gentlemen-within; the Council conceived that the feeling
out of doors was not so,steong as it really and truly is in
its objection and prejudice to the sup oly of this water.
My a !vice was, " You have ,memorialised the town
CounuJ, and the Ton.va ConLeil, has paid_eveey respect due
to your memorial. They have referred it to the considera-
tion oi the Water Committee, ,and the committee have
taken ample time to give the subject that consideration
Which it required at their hands. ,They have laid their
report before the Council, and the Council, again showing
the respect dne to the memorialisis, have appointed a special
day to considet this ques:ion, and therefore," I said, (you
will be premature in any s'eps that you may take until the
Council has first decided after its deliberation." The con-
sequence has been that there has been no public meeting
held. Well, now, T Say the qnestion to *be, decided this
day, is, whether the water is fit for general purposes,
or whether it is not—whether it is fit for a beverage or
not ? If it is fit as a beverage, those complaints are
without foundation. If it is not fit as a beverage, then
our duty is at once to withhold it frona the public until we
'ascertain to what special purposes it can be adopted, and
then to appropriate it- to that special purpovond to that
alone. Now I come to the colour of the water. Much
has been said about the colour, and most justifiably.
confess that when I saw the water within the reservoir
I was astounded at its dark colour. The Cauneil will be
indebted tolir. Crosthwaite for his forethought in carry-
ing with him, on the late visit to the works, a paint-box and
pieces of card-board, and in painting on the spot the various
colours which the card 'assumed at different depths from the
surface. From .those drawings you will see the colour
of the water in the reservoirs before it is passed
through the filter-beds, and after it has passed through
the filter-beds into the distributing tanks. I have
been extremely anxious to ascertain whether there is
any cause for the water being so discoloured that
is capable of being removed.; for I state unhesitatingly,
and , without the least, fear of contradiction, that I ap-
proach.this.subject, and have ever approached it, with the
most earnest desire to CCM' to the conclusion that is right
and just. I had ascertained what the water is at Ken.
sington, and
,I ask any gentleman who has not been at
Rivington, to go to Kensington and see the water there
impounded, and ask the engineer what sort of water. the
sandstone water was, as compared to that which is there
now.' You can now see, the water is in so inuidy a stale,
that you cannot see more than four feet beneath the sur-
face, and theengineer will tell you, that when the sand-
stone water was impounded there, and when the depth
was nine feet, you could see a 'pin at the
very bottom of the reservoir. You can now see
nothing at a depth of four feet, and that discolouration
does not arise from the pipes, because it was allowed to
flew through the pipes for several weeks for the parttime of
cleansing them before any water was impounded there for
distribution. I was informed, too, that the- pipes are
perfectly clean, and that there is nothing in them that can
contaminate the water in any co the reservoirs. I have
further made inquiry, and, I find that at the bottom of the
Anglezark reservoir,there is a depth of sixty feet of solid
peat. Gentlemen may ask hoar that was ascertained. The
Chorley water works and the Chorley reservoir are on one
side of thi Anglezark reservoir, and they have a receiving
reservoir on the other side, and when carryings connecting
iron pipe across the bed the Anglezark reservoir, they
had to pile, in order to obtain a solid resting place, sixty
feet through solid peat. I have that on the very best
authority, and if my friend Mr. Tinne questions the truth
of my statement I will give him my authority.
Mr. Tinne: I am not questioning lour statement—a
only question your way of putting it.
Mr. Jeffery continued : 1 am merely stating faets—l am
not giving my opinion upon them. lam simply stating
that, at Chorley, in order to prevent the pipe sinking,
which was about to be carried across the Anglezark
reservoir, they had to drive piles sixty feet in depth, and
I have it from the engineer that that depth was composed
of solid peat. Dr. Taylor has told you, at the instance of
the Water Committee, that you -cannot deprive the water
of the peat that is-in it, either in colour or in taste, except
through an extraordinary and expensive process of filtra-
tion, and I have also the authority of Mr. Hayskesley to
the same effect. In his report to the Town Council of
Preston, dated the 9th April, 1857, Mr. Hawkesley
says—" Experience of many years t`' has taught
hydraulic engineers' methods of filtration, which
are capable of removing all suspended matters by simple
means, with little labour and small expense. It is not
possible to remove all the colouring and other matters
which have entered into chemical combination with water
without the aid of some agent capable of exercising a
chemical influence." Ido not take authorities that are not
acceptable to you. I take your own authorities, and out of
their mouths I condemn the water for diete is purposes; and
I would say, that if the water be so bad in the month of
May it will be a great -deal worse-between November
and March, which is the time for throwing dressing
on the land with which • the reservoirs are
surrounded. We know perfectly well that when
a heavy shower and thunder storm fall upon those lands
the manure which will be dissolved will not be absorbed
by the land but will flow into the water below. So much
for the colour and quality; and now as to the quantity.
Let us not trifle with this point. Let .us not repeat
the dock blunder of filling up the Custom-house
dock, because we had created the Prince's Dock, and
suppose that we can at once dispense with the red sand-
stone water, because we may appear to have an abundant
supply in another quarter. Mr. Hawksley is himself con-
scious that the supply from Rivington will not be as
abundant as gentlemen think, for at the last or sec hid last
meeting of the Water Committee he astonished the gen-
tlemen there present—and I am not surprised at their
astonishment—by telling them that now that they had got
an additional supply they should be careful of it,
and should 'check the spread of water closets.
If I understand the one thing more than an-
other for which an abundant supply was necessary, it was
sanitory purposes, and I considered that with this new
supply every cottage was to to have a water closet. Mr.
Hawksley, however, now tells them that if they had the
river Mersey at their command they could not have water
closets in every house, or words to that effect.
Mr. Alderman Cooper: He only cautioned us against
its waste.

Mr. Jeffery: When Mr. Hawksley's attention was
called to that astonishing statement, what was his reply ?
Ha said, " you must be prepared to bear public odium for
a time." Did that look as though he referred only to a pre-
vention of waste? Why, sir, there has been nothing but
public odium come upon the Water Committee from the
first hour they entered on this scheme ; and no doubt Mr.
Hawksley has said in his heart, " you must bear public
odium that I may carry forward my scheme, not as I
proposed, but as I have altered and re-altered it, and as
I best can." The chairman of the Water Committee has
brought it to a very simple question. He says that it is a
question of coat. I join issue with him and say, that the
question of a good and abundant supply of whole-
some and acceptable water, is far beyond the question of
cost. I take up the question of cost first ; because, if I
cannot get the great necessary of life—water—without
paying an additional cost—wh,n I say additional cost, I
mean cost beyond what some gentlemen may deem ones.
sary ; but if I cannot get it without paying that cost, then
it becomes necessary that I should pay the cost, and the
cost I am prepared to pay. Bat let us see how this will
affect the matter. Doctor Nevins and Doctor Edwards have
been very patriotically applying themselves to ascertain
what will be the action on lead of the Rivington
water. They have given in their report to the
Socieiy of Chemists ; it has been published, and
I hope every gentleman has read it. Their
conclusions have only followed up what Dr. Aluspratt had
put nie in possession of before, and what I have taken the
opportunity of putting the council in possession of. I refer

to the active operation of the Rivington water on lead.
Every gentleman, too, will have read Mr. Stitt's letter,
wherein he states that he is a convert to the double set of
mains, though with reluctance, and I say that letter
redounds to his very great credit, because his desire at
first was to support the Water Committee, and his hopes
were that the scheme would ultimately b_t successful, but
upon closer inquiry he has come to the conclusion that if
the inh Ibitants of this town will have p '.re limpid and
palatable water, they must hare two lines of pipes, an =1
must retain the red sandstone weter. Now, I have in my
possession a letter from a gentleman, whose name is not only
known in this room, but who has mere than an European
reputation, and has been engin,ter to the Board of Health
for many years. I allude to Mr. Rawlinson. Immediately
after the last council debate upon this question, I received a
letter from him on this subject, but seeing the statements
from the other towns as to the action of water cn lead,
obtained by the town.clerk, many of which came through
him, and believing that the statements clntainel in them
were contradictory to what he stated to me, I wrote to him
for an explanation. That explanation I now read, or
at all events that loco tion of it having reference to this
subject.

Air. W. Earle : Is that the Mr. llawlinson who had to
do with St. George's Hall ?
Mr. Alderman Holrae : The same.
Mr. W. Earle : A very clever nun, no doubt. (Laugh-
ter.)
Mr. JiTery then read as follows :

34, Parliament-street, Westminster, March 2, 1857.

My Dear Sir,—l have received your note of the 28th ultimo, with
the enclosed extract, containing my replies to queries issued by your
Town-clerk, relative to the action of soft water on lead. The extract
is, I believe, correctly given. Pray notice that I never recommend
the use of lead; and I may further add, that I never nee it, nor allow
it to be used, or to be continued in use, before giving full and open
warning to the risers as to the danger they incur. My last letter
was founded on the knowledge I then possessed, and that knowledge
was obtained from published evidence, 101112 of which I find Mr. spences
elves in a pamyhlet on the Pike and Liverpool waters, dated January,
1857. You must a'eo notice that I only say, " there may not be danger
under a constant service by drawing the supply through short lengths
of existing lead service pipes?' I think it is clearly implied that
lead.cieterns must not be used ; at all events, " large and open lead
cisterns," are said to be "dangerous." The question of health or
disease in the use of water is, of course, to me, one of the greatest
possible interest. I have read all accessible information on the suhject-
-1 have examined all accessible works, and I do not rest satisfied so
long as knowledge is to be obtained ; and, I trust I shall never
be ashamed to correct my own errors. After writing to the Town
Clerk, I was in Manchester, and there learned that lead-
poisoning had taken place by using the soft water recently
introduced from lead cisterns. I made farther inquiries, and
was told that lead poisoning was beaming so common as to be
" a national calamity ;" and Dr. Robert Angus Smith stated, that
from recent examinations, made by himself, he found that water
Which acted on lead, did so on the least length of lead pipe which
could be used ; —and his words were, " Lead may be detected in
water if drawn through one•inch in length of lead pipe."eVie fur-
ther stated,—"l have had cases of lead-poisoning brought to my
notice, said to be from the use of water in which I could not detect
more than 1-100,000 th part of a farther stated,--`. Lead
may be detected if there is only 1-1,001,000 th part of a grain in a
gallon, and I believe 1-10,oso,OoOth part of a grain." We had a
farther conversation on the subject. and the doctor said,—" Lead
seems to act most arbitrarily, affecting one person and not
others ; and in some cases hommeathic doses seem to produce
evil." Haring this information, I wrote to!you ecommending a fall
and unOiaesed chemical repot on the subject, as regards the u:e of
lead cisterns and lead service pipes in Liverpool. I saw the authori-
ties at the General Board of HealtS, and directed their attention to
the subject —not as regards Liverpool, but gererally. Unfortunately.
any can. may be made out by evidence, and this lead !poisoning is
denied by ehemiete and msdieal men of the highest reputations; but
if people are so poisoned, and coatinne to be so poisoned, the truth
shou,d if possible be sought out and be made known. One life Is cf
more worth than all the psofess'onal reputations at stake. With
regard to soft and herd waters for use, I say now, as I have said
before —the softer the water the better, both for drinking and all
other uses, If there is any evidence to the contrary, I have not
seen it—other than medical evidence, for medical cases, as t, a
use of certain mineral 'and other-:eaters. If I resided in Liverpool,
and cou'd get the. Pike water pure, or tolerably pure, I would use it
in preference to the well water; but I would neither draw it through
lead pipes, nor store it in lead cisterns. This I have said from the
first, and now repeat—the moss taint may be disagreeale!e—l am
not aware that it is absolutely injurious. As to the rust on the pipet.,
this might have been prevented—they ought to have been var.
* * * * Let the Liverpool people have fair and open
notiee as to the danger from lead—all may then guard accordingly.
Iron can be used at no groat cost.—l am, my dear Sir, yours very

RODENT RAWLIMON,

truly,
To J. It. Jeffery, Esq., Liverpool
In conclusion Mr. Jeffery declared, that he produced the
letter fearing the responsibility which might rest
on him, as a. member of this council, and after this debate,
if he kept such an opinion secret, and, in reference to
Mr.. Cooper's. suggestion to have filters at the p'pes,
observed that it would not only be impracticable, but if it
were prat:tie:We, they could not ask the poor man to
supply his house with a filter at a cost of 255. For these
reasons he seconded the amendment.

Mr. William Earle : Mr. Mayo-, I want my own
bottles. I want them for the purpose of showing the
public what the water that is new supplied to Liverpool
really i 3. I don't want them to be deceivd by the
speeches of Mr. JeiLry or Mr. Bennett. (Two decanters
of water having 132 en given to the speaker, be pro-
ceeded to sat) --Mv attc-ntion has been so distracted by
the variety of points and speeches that have been raised,
that I have perfectl- bothered myself. But, we have had
many assertions in the course of the day, but we have had
no proofs that these assertitms are fact...
Mr. Jeffery : They are facts.

Mr. untie : In your brain they may appear facts, but
your brain i 3 so very prolific!. I say that the assertions
which have been made have not been proved to lx! facts to
the satisfaction of the public. We hare all heard of the
prophecie; of Mr Bennett, and I think he has hen a very
false prophet. He firs; said that we should never have the
water from Rivington in Liy2rpocl —that it never would
be used—and then that the supply would not be sufficient
to 'peat the require nests of the town. •
Mr. B.]nnett : I have never stated it, and I have before
denied it.
Mr. Earle : I aad oth.,T3 have heard von state the same.

Mr. Bennett: I deny It

Mr. Earle : Wen, that d.) as far as it goes. He
next tells 113 that tlvJe Are-- eight out of every ten of the
inhabitants, of the. town 'opeOsed to the present' supply.
Now, I will -how ylu•wliat, the water is that is supplied to
this town.

the poop

Mr. Sfe,clovith : If Too tl,ow Mr. Earle tO have his
own two hotties, I think it will only he fair that you should
aloyr ottrer g.,atiernen the same privilege.
Vr. Elrle : 1:u shall have yours at home.
The Mayor .: Tshoaid wish for each speaker to have th

same Triiiit.,ge

We I, I ceatee (holding up a tumbler-full)
is draw% from Ihe same source as I draw that fo? my own
use. On titis subjeat I 'have endeavoured to obtain all the
infer:nation I could, and I find that at the time this scheme
was firs. proposal, that the supply of water was so scarce
in Liverpool_ that many persons had to use the water they
washed in twice over. 11,yinz used it the first
times they let it st-. 10, and after they had allowe I
the sediment to settle, they took the top,
off, and then used it a second time ; and for other pur-
poses they had to catch the water that fill in courts in
different tubs, and even in sail cloths, so short was ihe.
supply in Liverpool. Wilt any person tell me, after having
fgo through with much difficolties as these, that anybody
will object to such beautiful water as this, and to such a

iaria and constant inpply. It is no more
irjuricus to heahn than tilt, well water. The water
isvery good to the ta3tP. and I heliev, it willlie found
quite aR goad cs t!le well water, and perhaps ?ens injuriou:4
to health. WA, next-, as to its not being rrood'enrolg,li ler
Ty,sons o bathe in Why it was as good as Ole water in
the a'. Windermere. Ido think that it wCs absurd
31r. Wag,taff to have tuade,9ny al'eration of the water

Lathe ; there was no wed for the diff-trence,
&rti if fat-) bather had not liked the water that was sup-
plied wh I should have told them that
if they dit not iiitc to come, why they might, go
where tety ecutd t).--,tter. Mr. Bennett has talked about
the correspor?enee which bat; taken place on this subject.
Now, f,-!-r my taut, t lit-Aft:ye that the wh,-,le has been written
by oh ,ut. s z ••,:!tlivi,litals; arid na to the medical men who
;nod the meniwial, why, the fret was apparent that
started With a few doctors lit order that. they might
yet others to f0110,.v -them. That was the- way that that
s euncact,d. There was no person knew
J:ffery !tow To concoct a memoriat. Well,
• '•;tat:rftk.at w4ti. regard to Cie Anglezate
ant is not Yet 'finished, an yet it is stated that
torn or it there is at Ift4 sixty feet of neat. Ido
,:incv how 11,' it. _and therefore cannot say
1),v: is his ealeniattons are founded. Well, then,
CS to his state:reit that there would never be a proper supply
water:rf but Mr Hawksley• had sail that we cßild get
the supply, anti that there never would be any want of
w:ter„ It was asserted lit they would never get the
Avatell, 'Why they had h:r:! the water, ana I believe that
we shall have it and plenty of it Cio. I think the present
system ,hoold have a fiir trial, and I believe that the
P'abi'ein general wish that it shouH, fr. 7
that ifhe p9lblic ecuE.l . s their opini.=' e,rl the sull,ct
at tiro present time. ' . would find that ii,Acad of eight
out of every ten be;,..; Ei,osal to it, they would not find
two out of ten who •,,,„ .;:,abject to it. The Town Council
have always exitirrued the proceedings of the Water Com-
mittee, and I believe that the town had full confidence in
what airy ha-! done. As for being abused, that arnountf.d

ban sig

111€.113(

at
not I.;

to nothing, for my part I am rather pleased with it than
not, as it had no influence on the minds of the
public, and as to the trash that bad been
written in the NORTHERN TIMES, it will never
be regarded or have any effect on the minds of the public.
It is most preposterous the stuff that has been written on
the subject, and I therefore shall support the original
motion,.

Mr. Bennett : What about the Prescot reservoir?
Mr. Earle : What have I to do with the Prescot
reservoir here. (Laughter.)
Mr. James Holme said, he had only one slaty to perform,
and that was to serve to the utmost the interests of those who
had seat him there. No one could regret more than he
did that on a question of such essential importance to all
classes of the community, and to the well-being
of the town itself, should have caused so much
dissention, as that question had always done in that
Council, when an unanimity of feeling was so
much desirable both for the benefit of the town
and for all parties interested. He would admit at once
that he had gone to Rivington for the purpose of
seeing for himsel, and that he was free to confess
that he had been much disappointed with the colour
of the water—(hear' hear)—and if he believed, for
one moment, that the water. as then supplied to
the town, was injurious to the health of the inhabitants,
be would at once cut off the supply of the Rivington water
and have itsapplied only for senators- and commercial pur-
poses. (Hoar, hear). But as water from a similar source
was supplied to every town in England, he could not sea
the necessity of such a cour e. There were few towns in
England that could get an adequate supply of well-water,
and if they looked at the position of Rivington, he
believed it would be found that few places could find
a much better supply. He supposed that it would not be
contended that if the water had been brought from Win-
dermere, that it would have given satisfaction. Now he
had lived for some time in that district, and he could forro
a comparison between the two, and what was the result ;
that the towns were supplied with water from that lake,
as this was from Rivington, and yet there was no com-
plaints ever made. What was the reason that this council
first took upon themselves to supply the whole town with
water—was it not to do away with the double lines of
pipes in the streets, in order to prevent the paving of the
streets from being constantly pulled up. As that was the
case, the coancit took it upon themselves
to supply the inhabitants with water. Well, the
council having done so, he did hope that
they would well consider any resolution that might lead
to such things in future. With regard to the statement
made by Mr. Bennett, as to the quality of the water, it
would equally apply to nine-tenths of the towns of
England. But the question was not one of pounds,
shillings, and pence, and it should not be argued as such.
It was—is the water injurious to the health of the inhabit-
ants, or is it not? He believed that the present water was
good, and if he did not he would at once admit that some
other sheald be suppled. Mr. Bennett had also said that
eight out of every ten of the inhabitants objeetel to the
present water. If such was the case, he should have
bought that some of the members of that Council would
have heard of the complaints, and that they would have
been applied to; bat he could assure the Council
that he had never once been applied to. He would
confess that the water was not a good colour, hit
still he did not think on these grounds that
it should be got rid of. They had also heard
something about the water being unfit for use. That morn-
ing he had received a letter from a party he did Lot know,
but it was signed Wolstenhohne, and as it was from a gen-
tleman who had same experience in such maters, and was
from an unbiassed source, he would read it. It was as
follows :

"eir,—Being aware of the agitation, and probably exaggeration, on
the subject of the Rivington water supply to Liverpool, having, this
afbenr:on, occasion to go to Rivington-hs.ll, I supplied myself with a
clear bottle for the pulp :sae of personally examining+ the water, and
filled it from the tank, before its entering the pipes for Liverpool.
Arrived at Mr. Andrews, I put some of the Liverpool water into
a clear conical wine glass—and into another similar glass some
of the spring wader, which supplies Rivington-hall, which, as you
may 4uppose, is very fine. Mr. Andrews, and his brother, and
myself, agreed that, in taste, the Liverpool water was very good
—though not so bright as the spring water—yet very nearly, if
not quite free from colour. We then mixed a little brandy with
both waters. in separate wine glasses, with the same result,
namely, that the spring water with brandy was brighter; but
that the Liv rpool water, with brandy, mig' t fairly be pro-
m:famed good. I have not the slightel perional Interest in this war
of opinions, but, having been a medical practitioner here for many
years, and having a personal knowledge of the di,triet from which
the Liverpool supply is collected, I see no reason w ,y it should rot
be as good (provided the colour can be remedied) as the Bolton
Corporation water, from the sane district of country, which, I
believe, is not excelled by any water in the kingdom.—l have the
honour to be, sir, your obedient servant,
GEO. WOLSTENHOLME, J.P.
To Mr. Councillor James Holme.
P.S.—I may just add, that in my opinion the water near the surface
of the large reservoir is much clearer t,an the water as it runs out
Of the Clow, to supply the filter beds.
Bolton, May 26 th, 1857.
TlLit was the evidence of an unprejudiced person, and he
hoped that it would he taken for what it was really worth.
He then expressed himself npposd to the suggestion of
having filters, and went on to say that it was impossible
for any person to say, if they did reject the Rivington
water, how long it would be, with the increasing
population of the town, that the wells would
be sufficient to supply the town. He next referred
to the wells at the north end of the town, for the purpose
of showing that the water from that source was diminish
ing, and stated that a case had recently occurred where a
well had been made, and that they had found salt water.
There had been a great deal sail about Mr. Andrew's pit.
Well, he had visited that pit on the recent excursion.
There he had found Mr. M'Donald, he thought not much
to that person's credit, for he was only there to point out
some little matters that might perhaps be overlooked. He
went to see the pit—that was the pit at the bottom of the
goit, and he found it was fourteen years since it had been
cleared out. Wherever there were trees there were also
leaves, and the leaves would fall in the autumn season,
and it so occurred that they had fallen into that pit, which
this year the old gentletren had determined to empty, awl
it was that whiles had got into the goit that had given
rise to so much talk, and of which Mr. Bennett had made
so much noise about. Well, the next point he had to
deal with was that the chairman of the Baths Committee
had requested to have the Rivington water turned out of
the baths. It was done—but it was done unknown
to any of the Water Committee, but there was no doubt
but that Mr. Wagsteff had done that which he thought
was for the best when he asked Mr. Duncan to turn the
pure water into the baths. But he did not do it for the
sake of the health of the parties goirg there. Remarks,
he went on to say, had been made on the subject by the
press of Liverpool, and he, as well as others, bad been
most severely attacked by it. To him such attacks were of
no matter of moment. All he would ask from the press
was simply to confine themselves to the statement of facts,
and on them make their comments, and he was
willing to abide by them. Ner as to expense. It
had been stated that these 'vverkl had cast three
times the amount that they were first estimated
at. He would- tell them exactly what the whole
of the works had cost up to the present time, even up to
that day, it was £730,490 ; but he was free to admit
that to some extent Mr. Hawkeley had deceived them
as to what the real costs would be. But out of
that amount they had purchased Chorley water
works, which was repaying them something, and, he
was bound to say, that they had never heard any com-
plaints of the supply of water from those works. Having
briefly referred to some other triple touched upon by the
different speakers he said he did hope that before any
final decision was come to, that they would allow the works
to be completed, and that they should have a fair trial, but
above all he d:d hone that there would be no more writing
in the newspapers. Let that stop, and the public would
soon find out if there was anything wrong, and then, after
a fair trial, if it should be found that the works were not
complete, and the water was bad, he should be happy to
do all he could to give them satisfaction. _

Mr. Alderman Parker declared Mr. James Ho!me'S
speech had expressed the sentiments of an honest man ;
but when he talked of stoppitg the press, he might as
well talk of stopping the Mersey from flowing up. He
reminded the Council that Mr. HaWksley at one tithe
declared it would be impossible to get more' than twenty-
eight millions of gallons of water from the wells, and all
the professors who came down agreed to it; whereas, at
present, upwarsis of forty millions were obtained, and he
thought it quite possible than much more could be
obtained. He expressed great surprise at the different
kinds of water which were given through the town, in
some places pure and brilliant, such as he was satisfied
did riot erne from the Pike, and in other places quite
discoloured. He thought the Water Committee were not
dealing quite frankly With the Council. (Hear, hear.)
He recommended, however, that the Council should have
more information before they ventured upon laying out a
very large sum of money, where there was a great pro-
bability of a 2s 6d borough rate being put upon them.
He could not, therefore, at present go the length of Mr.
Bennett's motion.

Mr. Hodson did not believe there ►tias one gentleman in
the room who, if he thought for one moment that the water
was really unwholesome, would 'allow it to be used for
drinking purposes. Bat he had paid a great deal of atten-
tion to the subject since he became a nymber of the Water
Committee, and he could unhesitatingly state, publicly and
boldly in that room, that the statements with reference to
the action- of the water upon lead, made by Mr. Jeffery
and Mr. Bennett, were totally incorrect. They had nog