Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-03-19 00:00:00

THE HOST.

Sir A. Agnew gave notice of a resolution to the effect
that soldiers in foreign services should not be compelled to
salute the Host.

THE SUPERANNUATION BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. S. Northcote explained,, at length, the reasons which.
rendered it necessary to alter the unjust and anomalous
provisions of the existing law.
Sir H. Willoughby objected to the expense accrued by
the bill, and moved, as an amendment, a resolution to the
effect that all deductions from salaries in order to form a
fund for superannuation having been abolished, it is not
expedient to add to the amount of public charges by an
increase in the scale of superannuation.
Mr. Gladstone thought that the cost of the alteration
should be known before the House came to any decision.
Mr. Williams objected to the bill on economical grounds.
Mr. Wilson defended it. Above all things it was
necessary to establish a uniform scale.

Colonel Sykes and Sir F. Baring approved of the bill.
Sir G. Lewis did not see why the scale of allowances
should be reduced. He thought the distribution might be

altered.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the Bill only
legallised what was before the practice of the Treasury
and other public offices. He did not believe that the
increase of allowance would affect more than 7,000 or
8,000 persons. There was no substantial increase in the
scale of superannuation ; they had increased the minimum
and decreased the maximum.
The House then divided, when the amendment was
negatived by 131 to 29.

The House then went into committee on the Bill.
A division took place on clause 11, permitting the
civil servants to retire at 60 years of -age.
Sir G. C. Lewis moved to amend the clause by substitut7
ing sixty-five.
The amendment was negatived by 166 to 100.
Several other clauses were agreed to, after which the
House resumed.

BILLS.
The Petitions of Right bill passed through committee.
METHCAL CHARITIES IN IRELAND.

Lord Naas obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the
laws in force for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland,
and to amend an act of the 14th and 15th years of her
Majesty, providing for the better distribution, support, and
management of medical charities in Ireland.
The other orders were disposed of, and
The house adjourned at half-past one.

MERSEY DOCKS AND
HARBOUR WORKS BILL.

[FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY.

The case for the promoters closed yesterday afternoon,
with the evidence of Mr. Smith, agent to the Bridgewater
trustees.

Mr. Calvert, Q.C., addressed the committee in opposition
to the bill, on behalf of the Great Western, and the Birken-
head and Cheshire Junction Railway Companies. After
adverting to the provision in the Mersey Conveyance Act
of 1867, for the nomination of four members of the Mersey
Dock Board by the Crown, he said it was no small criterion
as to the nature and objects of the bill now before the com-
mittee, that not one of those four members appointed by
the Crown had expressed an opinion in favour of the bill.
On the other hand three of them distinctly dissented from

it when the subject was under discussion by the board,
whilst the fourth, although his opinion of it was not shown
by his vote, was known to be decidedly opposed to it He
contended, then, that this bill was purely a Liverpool bill,
and its objects the promotion of Liverpool interest, as
against the Birkenhead docks, and the general interests of
the public and the Mersey Dock Estate. He thought he
should be able to satisfy the committee that the Liverpool
interest in the Mersey Dock Board was now endeavouring
to accomplish in detail what in 1855 they failed to
accomplish by another bill known as the £4,000,000
scheme. The same arguments had been used
before the committee, and the same suggestions made as
were resorted to on the occasion when the bill failed. He
believed the committee would find that practically the
£4,000,000 scheme would be carried out within a few thousand
pounds if the promoters of the present bill obtained the
borrowing powers they were now seeking. The £4,000,000
scheme would have enabled the Dock Board to expend
nearly that amount on the Liverpool north docks in the
space of ten years ; and, if the bill now before the commit-

tee was sanctioned, the Board (having in 1855 gbtained
powers to borrow £850,000 for works, and £266,000 in
1858), with the £300,000 they now sought to raise, would
have got the sum of £1,400,000, which was about the sum
that would have been expended within the same period had
the £4,000,000 scheme been adopted by parliament ; so that
in point of fact, they had the £4,000,000 scheme repeated,
and the committee were now asked to sanction that which,
in 1855, was distinctly refused. No doubt, these gentlemen
at Liverpool were wise in their generation. They failed in
1855, because at that time the timber interest was not strong
enough in their favour. But, now, what had the Dock
Board done ? They had granted leases of this land, at the
north end of Liverpool, to certain gentlemen connected with
the timber trade, and the consequence was, that nearly every
one of the gentlemen who had been called before the
committee were personally interested in the property on
which the sum now asked for was proposed
to be laid out. By granting these leases, therefore, the
Board had secured the interest of the gentlemen who had
been cited before the committee. The learned counsel next
urged that the revenue of the Board, and the general
financial condition of the dock estate, rendered it undesir-
able that the powers now asked for should be granted.
According to the evidence of Mr. Turner, the chairman of
the Board, the revenue was £580,000, and the expendi-
ture £500,000, leaving a surplus of £BO,OOO, but out of
this £BO,OOO what more was there to come ? There
was the interest on the sum of £1,400,000' additional bor-

rowed, which must be provided for, and if this further
sum of £300,000 was granted, it would amount to
£1,700,000. There was therefore a surplus of £BO,OOO,
and a prospect of something like £90,000 of increased lia-
bilities, When Mr. Turner came to reflect on the evi-
dence which he had given befora the committee on Tues-
day, he must, no doubt, have seen that he was coming
before Parliament to borrow a sum of money for which
he had no corresponding income, and, therefore, very
naturally, he desires the next morning to explain his
evidence, and endeavour to make it appear that the
surplus was £120,000 and not £BO,OOO. But this sur-
plus of £120,000 assumed that the trade of the country
was to go on with uninterrupted and continued pros-
perity, an assumption which was unsound, and which no
man would depend upon in dealing with his own

THE NORTHERN Tlll/tES, SATURDAY, MARCH 19 1859

private affairs. In endeavouring to ascertain the actual
surplus. The average returns for a number of years should
be dealt with, and not any particularly advantageous year,
such as had been selected by Mr. Turner. What, then,
was the surplus, as shewn by the average returns extend-
ing over a period of nine years. He had it before him, and
the surplus was £37,750.
The Chairman : That average includes the years before
the town dties were added to the revenue,

Mr. Calvert : No doubt of it, but the town dues had to
be paid for annually by instalments. But further. In Mr.
Turner's calculation of surplus, nothing at all was taken
into calculation about the possible rating of the
docks, when it must be clear to every man that it
was more than probable that the docks of Liverpool
would ultimately be rated, because if an act of parliament
should be passed for rating all public property, was it
likely that they would be exempt ? In that case, taking
the amount of securities, the value of the property to be
rated might be set down at £12,000,000, and, according
to the rates in Liverpool, which were from 3s to 4s in the
pound, the rate upon the annual value would not be less
than £79,000. There were also other charges, and to
meet them there was nothing in return for this proposed
expenditure.
The Chairman : There would be the additional dues on
the Birkenhead side.

Mr. Calvert : No doubt there would, but what he said
was, that they should wait until they got their income
from Birkenhead, and then it might, perhaps, be found
wise to adopt the proposed outlay, but until they had got
an income at Birkenhead, it was too much to ask for all
this expenditure at Liverpool. Referring to the two par-
ticular branches of trade, for whose accommodation the
sum proposed to be borrowed—the timber trade, and the
steam carrying trade—the learned eounsel contended, that
as regarded the timber trade, the accommodation at Birken-
head would in every respect be better than at the north end
of Liverpool; whilst there would be greater safety for
vessels in a storm, and the depth of water at Bir-
kenhead was greater than at Liverpool. It had been
attempted to show that there were the most pressing
necessities for increased accommodation for the steam ship-
ping trade, but the committee would remember that what-
ever, accommodation was afforded at Birkenhead, would
necessarily relieve Liverpool. The board were applying to
parliament for money when they were straitened in their
means, and when they had not an income to meet it. But
why, he would ask, did they come now ?* Because this time
next year the Great Float at Birkenhead was to be opened,
and their great object was to concentrate all .at Liverpool.
If they had not come before next year, the
Great Float would have been opened, and that
would have prevented the strongest possible argu-
ment against the application for extended works
at Liverpool. The Great Float would be open in March,
1860, and thus out of 212 acres of water-space, at Birken-
head, 160 acres would then be ready. Under these circum-
stances, it would be unreasonable to allow the board to
raise the sum proposed. They did not pretend that they
could complete the proposed works in less than eighteen
months or two years, and thus, before they could do so, they
would have the very accommodation at Birkenhead which
they said they so much needed. He concluded by stating
that the promoters had not made out their case, and he
thought the committee would pause before they sanctioned
the bill.

Mr. Webster said that as Mr. Sergeant Ballasis (who with
himself represented the Birkenhead Commissioners,) was
unwell, and not able to address the committee, he (Mr.
Webster) did not propose to trouble the committee.

Mr. Calvert having intimatedintimated to the committee that he
did not intend to call any witnesses,
The Chairman said in that case the committee knew noth-
ing of the opinions of anybody averse to the bill of the pro-
moters, and the learned council's statement only went for so
much argument.
Mr. Calvert thought that there was enough detailed in
the evidence:of their own witnesses to elicit an expression
of opinion from the committee against the bill.
Mr. Merewether did not think it necessary to reply, but
asked the committee if they would clear the room.
Mr. Turner having put in the returns, which the chairman
asked for on Tuesday,
The Chairman said the returns would be left in the
hands of the committee, when some points might possibly
arise on which Mr. Turner could give an explanation, after
which the committee would decide.

The committee then adjourned until to-day.
The committee re-assembled at noon to-day, the Right
Hon. Sir George Cornewall Lewis in the chair.
Mr Turner having been re-called and examined by the
chairman in explanation of the statement of the financial
condition of the dock estate, which he handed in yesterday,
the room was ordered to be cleared, and, on the re-aimission
of strangers,

The Chairman said that, before announcing the decision of
the committee, he wished to call their attention to a passage
in the report of the Board of Trade. }laving read that portion
of the reportof the Board of Trade which stated that it would
be in the consideration of the committee whether definite
plans should not be submitted, considering the large powers
possessed by the Mersey Board, he proceeded to say that the
committee understood the meaning. of that suggestion to
be that it was doubtful whether it was the intention of
the Board to execute the specific works on the plans, or
whether, after obtaining the £300,000 they might not
construct docks on some other portion of their land.
Mr. Merewether : We shall be prepared to insert a
special clause that it is for these particular works.
The Chairman : With distinct plans ?
Mr. Merewether : Yes, and they would be defined in
clause three.

The Chairman said, that on the whole the committee
did not doubt that it was the intention of the Mersey
Board to construct works according to the plans
submitted. They had no doubt as to the
good faith of the Board, and believed that
they would execute the works, therefore they were not pre-
pared to insist on the insertion of the present plans in the
bill. The report of the Board of Trade went on to say that,
considering the magnitude and importance of the Mersey
docks the conflicting interests which had been apparent,
and the large surplus revenue that might be expected, spe-
cific plans for the future should be insisted upon. The com-
mittee had taken this passage in the report into considera-
tion, and they agreed in the general spirit of the remarks,
but they were not prepared to adopt precisely the sugges-
tions with regard to compelling them to come to Parliament
with plans, but looking to the financial state of the trust,
shown by the balance-sheet which had been submitted by the
chairman of the board, and the large debt as compared with
the income, and looking also.to the fact that the chief part
of the Mersey Dock Board's revenue arose from taxes levied
on the trade of the port, he thought it would be desirable,
after all the charges arising from the interest on the pre-
sent debt, and all the charges necessary to maintain the
docks now in existence, or to be executed, 'should be ful-
filled, there should be imposed on the board by the present
bill an obligation for the reduction of a certain annual por-
tion of the principal of their debt, of which all the
charges that he had named should have the priority, but
that it should be required to create a sinking fund to a
certain amount, and subject to such a clause the committee
would be prepared to find that the preamble of the bill
had been proved.
Mr. Sergeant Bellasis, as representing the Birkenhead
Commissioners, said he intended to have suggested the
introduction of such a clause.
Mr. Merewether said, he had listened with much atten-
tion to what had fallen from the committee, and received the
suggestion as it ought to be received ; at the same time, it was
a consideration on which some important matters might
result. Without saying anything in opposition to the sug-
gestion, the committee would perhaps pardon him for saying,
on the part of those whom he represented, that the report
of the Board of Trade did not find them altogethar unpre-
pared for the suggestion which had been made. What
they said was this, that being a public body and a public
trust, exercising duties for which no one received a farthing
cf benefit, they had not the same feeling as to dealing with
surplus that a private company would have.
The Chairman : Of course, you have no proprietary.
Mr. Merewether: No; and therefore to the abstract proposi-
tion that, after doing all that was right to be done, the surplus
should to some extent be made to provide for a sinking fund,
they had no objections. The learned counsel, in continua-
tion, was going on to say that such a clause could only be
acceded to with certain qualifications, and was endeavouring
to show that without them the board might be undesir-
ably crippled and restricted, when
The Chairman said the opinion of the committee was
that their suggestion would be less restrictive than
the suggestion of the Board of Trade. They
wished to give an ample discretion to the Mersey
Board. On the other hand, it must be borne
in mind that the debt was getting large, and that the interest
on it was levied in :taxes on the trade of , the port, and
therefore the trade of the port was interested in the reduction
of the debt. What the committee wished to do, was to leave
all reasonable discretion to the Mersey Board, but at the
same time to see that the rule that parliament was in the
habit of applying to all subordinate bodies like this trust,
who borrowed money on the security of rates, should be
enforced, and that they should provide an annual sinking
fund. They did not wish to press unduly on the trust,
but they thought that this principle should be adopted.
After some discussion between the respective counsel and
the committee, and an expression of opinion by Mr. Salis-
bury, M.P., chairman of the Birkenhead Railway Company,
that a sufficient time should be given for the railway com-
panies to consider the nature of the proposed clause, the
proceedings were adjourned to Wednesday, on which day
the promoters undertake to submit the clause.