The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-04-15 00:00:00

THE ANNUAL RASTER VESTRY.

The Annual Easter Vestry for the parish of Liverpool
was held yesterday in the Sessions house, Chapel street.
The vestry was convened for St. Nicholas' Church, but on
the motion of Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff, seconded by
Mr. Churchwarden Shaw, it was afterwards adjourned
to the above place. The chair was occupied by the Rev.
Rector Campbell. The vestry was exceedingly numerous.
and amongst these present we noticed—Rev. Mr. Denny,
Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff, Mr: Churchwarden Shaw,
and Messrs. J. 13. Lloyd, Aid. T. Dover, R. Hutchinson,
E. Arnaud, J. Finch, F. A Clint, C. Willmer, J. Livirg-
ston, W. B. Jones, W. P Jeffreys, 0. Ellam, J. R.
. Jeffery, J. Sidney, C. F. Came, T. Urquhart, Cooke,
Btirstow, Brancker, Denton, Critchiry, H. Parsons, R.
Bird, Oliver, Cr!llin, E. Harvey, J. Thompson, K Liver-
sedge, S. Thorneley, C. J. Corbelly, Owen, Whitby,
Murdoch, S. B. Jackson, Bremner, J, Bigham, Kitchen,
Sherlock, Ald. T. Hold, R Shell, Robertson Gladstone,
H Fernie, C Batten, R Shaw, C Rawls, J, Stitt, T.C,
J Baxter, J sKvage, Ball, R Holmes, C Chalk, Groom,
A Stone, J Blain, E P Jones, T !Alf, J Fernihough, H
Molyneux, H Banner, H N Hayman, James Levingston,
Meade Kiel, H Sudlow, C Robertson, W Nathan, R
Swift, J Robinson, Joseph Roberts, Atherton,) Fairhurst,
area Roiands.
The Chairman then said : Befo-e we proceed to the
business of the day, I wish to say a few words upon the
sithjnt of the notice which has just been read to you with
regard to the poll I trust that there will be no disposi-
tion on the part of the vestry to disturb the uniform
custom of the parish, that when a poll is demanded at the
annual vestry it should be adjourned from day to day for
a reasonable time, to enable a'l duly qualified parishioners
to record their votes. It wands to reason that this ought
to be done in such a parish as tips, containing not less,
most probably, than 270,000 souls. The common law
mode of voting is by show of hands or by poll ; and the
ehairman (who is the proper person to do it) having an-
n inneed the result of a show of hands, a poll is demand-
. able, as of right, by any voter. In the case of " Campbell
v. Maund " it is said to be in point of law a necessary
incident to the mode of election by show of hands. Inde-
pendently of any authority upon the subject, the recourse
to a poll, where the population is large, appears the only
mode of ascertaining with precision the number of those
who vote on each side. and the right of each elector to vote.
Indeed, it is the only mode by which each individual
elector can have the power of expressing his opinion
at all ; for in the case of populous parishes no vestry room
can be large enough to contain the whole body. The chair-
man is bound to grant a poll, even though the majority
present should object, and his refusal to do so would
vitiate the decision in respect of which it was demanded.
The question then arises, when and where it is to be taken,
and how long it is to continue ? The custom in this parish
has been to conclude the other business of the vestry, and
adjourn the poll to some convenient place on the following
day, or such other day as would suit the parishioners, and
continue it day by day from ten o'clock till four, till the
sense of the parishioners was fairly ascertained, and either
no voting at all or languid voting showed that the strength
of one of the contending parties was exhausted, and the
contest virtually at an end; and this custom would probably'
be sustained and sanctioned by the Court of Queen's Bench if
appealed to on the subject. If, however, it should be the will
of the parishioners that the poll should be commenced on
the same day, immediately after the conclusion of the other
business, no objection will be made, however exhausting
and inconvenient such a process might'be, and it will be
continued till four o'clock that day, and then actin:rued to
the following, day at ten o'clock, or to home Other con-
, venient day if the parishionelr)! Pre-c'Snt should wish it, and
keep open from ten till fo
the opportunity of attend'a4 t:0 each day till all have had
record their suffrages. I
feel assured that -4:11.1e• vestry will assent to this, but if,
unhappily,
the', should
why, then. not ass -nt but resist an adjournment,
I shall feel eempelied, however reluctantly, to
act ;,"n contradicti
rni to their wishes, and to exercise my
light, on my
°.ern authority, to adjourn the poll, subj •ct to
the correfl.non of the Court of Queen's Bench if I have
Ojai Queen's
. -ram it wrongfully. Ido not pretend to an arbitrary
eight of adjournment to interrupt or procrastinate the
business without any plea of necessity or convenience,
but I have au unquestionable right of adjournment,
subject to the correction of the Queen's Bench, for the
convenience of the parishioners, and with a view to secure
their unquestionable right to record their suffrages.
If I were to refuse this I might be compelled to grant it by an
appeal to the Queen's Bench, even though 1 were to refuse it
with the concurrence of the vestry. It has been argued on
the other hand, that all questions in vestry must be decided by
the ratepayers, or the major part of them, then present, and
that therefore a poll cannot be appointed for a different time
and place. But in reply to this, in the case of the Queen v.
Hedger, Lord Campbell, then attorney general, said—" The
right to demand a poll is by the common law an incident to
the popular election of a p?rota to an office. .This argument
would limit the right to those who happen to be in the room
When the show of hands was called for, though no room could
contain all who wished to vote. The poll is a continuation of
the vestry, and the voters are then present in the meaning of
act." And Lord Donna In says—" We aro of opinion
that the- words then present' do not confine the right
of nomination -to persons actually present at the first
Meeting any more than such words would prevent voters
from coming in during a poll." (Adolph. and Ell., vol. xii.,
p. 160.) " There is no doubt of the law," says Lord Denman,
in the Queen v. D'Oyly," that the ratepayers in vestry arc to
'elect, and that if a poll be demanded it should be kept open
for all qualified persons.' It has been ruled, in the case of
. the. Queen v. St. Mary's, Lambeth, that any rate.; inhabitant,
whether previously present at the vestry or not, has a right
to vote, and the closing of the vestry doors during the poll so as
to exclude voters is illegal. (Burns' Justice, vol. vi., p. 336.)
In the case of the Queen v. St. Mary, Newington, Justice Cole_
ridge says, "Must the election be made by those only of the
inhabitants present at the commencement of the poll, or at all
events during its continuance that day, or is the poll to
continue by reasonable adjourments, so that the inhabitants
generally may vote in the election ? It is admitted to be
now clearly established that the latter is the proper course."
And, he speaks further of this "as the general rule of law
founded on reason, and by which alone in large parishes it
is possible for elections to be made by the majority of those
entitled to have a voice in them." (6 D. and L, 162, 172 )
That the right of adjournment, whether the vestry
assent or no, resides in the chairman, subject
to correction if he exercises it improperly, has
been determined by Lord Denman in the case of the
Queen v D'Oyly, and the Queen v Hedger. In any old
oise, that of Stoughton ve Reynolds, it seemed to have been
held 'that the right of adjournment resided in the vestry,
but this case has been overruled and its authority limited
by very many subsequent ones=-the King v. the Archdeacon
.ot Chester, and the King v. the Churchwardens of Lam-
beth, and Baker v. Dowring and Wood, and by a very
recent and important authority on the subject, the case of
Westerten v. Davidson, where Dr Robert Phillimore said :
"No agreement between the incumbent and a parishioner,
even if confirmed by the majority of the electors present,
can legally be named the period of voting as to exclude
any qualified elector from a fair and reasonable opportunity
of recording his vote. This seems to me the law clearly
laid down by the temporal and ecclesiastical courts." Acd,
finally, Lord Denman, in the case of the Queen v. Hedger
and tie Queen v. D'Oyly, has settled the question it the
following words :—" The meeting being held, and a show of
bands taken, some one was to declare on whom the nomination
had fallen. Who was to do that ? Not the body of the
parishioners who had made the nomination, nor the old
churchwardens, but the person presiding at the vestry,
namely, the rector. A poll is then demanded. and it
is demandable as of right, and the president of the meeting
is the person to grant it. In the absence of other business
the poll should be taken immediately : if time does not
allow. of that, there must be an adjournment for the purpose.
Then, who is to direct the adjournment. It is suggested
that a majority of the voters should do so. But
how is the majority to be ascertained in so large a
constituency ? And what is the situation of parties if the
majority present decide against adjournment, so as to leave
no time for a considerable part of the ratepayers to vote?
Setting aside the inconvenience:that might arise if a majority
of the parishioners could determine the point of adjourn-
men ewe think that the person who presides at the meeting
is the proper individual to decide this. It is on him that
it devolves, ;both to preserve order in the meeting, acd to
regulate the proceedings, ,eo his to, give all persons entitled a
reasonable opportunity; of votieg., He is to do the acts necessary
for these purposes on his own,responaibility, and subject to his
being called upon to answer for his conduct if he has done
anything improperly, The case of Stoughton v. Reynolds is
a good authority, but should not be pressed to the extent to
which the argument in support of this rule would carry it. As
it has been explained, it does not decide that the rector may
not adjourn the meeting; but only that if he has done it so as
to disturb the proceedings, the court will interfere"
Mr. Denton moved that the accoun4 be adopted.

Alderman. Dover : Before the vcounts are passed,
would. you allow me to put a question to the church.
ward. ns with regard to the parochial rate. It has been
industriously circulated that the churchwardens have
not compelled, that is, that they have not used the means
which the law enabled them to employ, to collect the
parochial rate from every individual. (Hear, hear.) Of
entrse I do not mean to say that in a large p .risll like
this there must not be some persons from whom it would
ba impossible to get any money But I wish to ask whether,
as a rule, the parishioners have been asked for the
parochial rate, and have the means been resorted to—l
mean through summonses_..—in cases where parties have
not paid, to compel. them ? Before I. myself . paid the
parochial rate, it having been, as I said before, indus-
triously buzzed about that the churchwardens did not, or
as some people had it, dared not collect the rate, I saw Mr.

Churchwarden Woodruff, and 1 asked him whether or not
it washirintetetleirto-compel the rate to lee - paideby every-
parishioner. He assured me that it was, and therefore I
paid my parochial rate. Since that it has been stated to
me that they had not universally compelled the payment.
.(Hear, hear.) It has been stated that one gentleman told
the churchwardens, or at least told, I believe, Mr ChuTA-
warden Shaw, that it was not his intention to pay the rate,
and that he added further, " Why don't you summons me."
The reply given, as stated .to me--I may have been incor-
rectly informed, but, if so, Mr Churchwarden Woodruff
can set me right—the reply given by Mr Ishaw was : Nye
do not mean to go to law with anybody." (" Hear, hear,"
" Ob, oh,'' and laughter) Now, we well know that there
are numbers of people—at least that was mye experience
when I was chnrchwurden—who make it a point never to
pay at all until they are compelled. (Hear.) These parties, sir,
form a very great number in a large parish like this. But
I have heard since that the churchwardens have mustered
courage, and have issued summonses against some of
the ratepayers. The obj et of my risin r now, is to under-
stand from the churchwardens, not from Mr. Cburchwarde,n
Shaw alone, but from Mr, Churchwarden Woodruff,
because it seems to me that they are acting se*.
what at cross purposes in this business. I waef idistiect
answer from them whether the summonses are to be general
aeainst all parties who have not paid the parochial rate
(Hear, hear.) If the summonses are to be general, I shall
not regret having paid my rate. But if I .find that the
summonses are only partial, and that certain persons are
selected to be tired at, and these alone, I, although I am
not fond of martyrdom, and although I am not one
of those who court a blow, am somewhat sorry
that I. was not a martyr too. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) I am sorry that I am not in
the category of those who were nonpayers, and that, in
common with some others of my fellow parishioners, I did
not allow myself to be summoned with them. ut if I
get an assurance from the claurchwaielens—and their word
with me will be quite satisfactory - that they intend—
for I understand that it is their intention again to anew
Themselves to be put in nomination—if they are elected,
that they will without partiality summon all parties who
refuse to pay the parochial rate, I shall then be satisfied.
(Hear, hear.) 1 think that is a question which I have a
right to put, and a question the parishioners have a right to
hear answered. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Woodruff : I think, Mrt Chaitman, that Mr.
Alderman Dover might have been quite satisfied with
asking a question affecting the present year, without
referring to the next, seeing that at the present moment
he is not aware who may be the chunchwardens
for the next year. (Hear, hear.) It would be very
absurd of me to attempt now to give any promise either
for myself or for anybody else, as to what we may do at
some future era, and it was very ridiculous on his part to
pat his question in such a way. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
I did hope that Mr. Alderman Dover, whose professed love
for the church is so great, and whose veneration for the
rector is so great, would have been the last man to come
into this court, beforeesuch an assemblage as this, to raise
such a question. (Hear, hear.) But seeing that Mr.
Alderman Dover scarcely knows his own position, and
scarcely knows what the enquiry he has made may lead
to, I shall not shrink from giving Mr. Alderman Dover the
answer to which his boldness entitles him, but not his
discretion. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now, sir, this is
a re-hash of Mr. Carrie of the last year. (Hear, hear.) It
is not a question raised to-day for the good of the rector,
and for the security of his stipend, or for the good
of the .church. (Hear, hear.) It is a question raised to
endeavour to break Thwn the noble and bold principle
followed out during the last two years; it is a question
raised to-day to set one party of the parishioners against
another (hear, hear) ;itis a question raised to-day between
Dissenter and Churchman, Roman Catholic and Church-
man. (Cries of " No, no," and hear, hear.) I will be no
party to serve Mr. Alderman Dover or Mr. Carne in
carrying out a bigotted proposition, which ought not to be
followed out at the present day. (Hear, hear.) If I
stand alone, I shall resist it as inimical to the church,
discreditable to all churchmen, violating that principle
which ought to prevail between man and man, and tending
only to'create ill feeling. (Hear, hear.) He has asked us
a question in reference to the parochial rate. Previous to
malting up the finaraccounts to be submitted to the parish,
the treasurer was called upon to. submit to the
churchwardens the procedure in reference to the
parochial rate ; and we found that the entire
of that rate, if collected, would amount to
£2,223 12s. 91. We found that there had been collected
without an angry word £1,703 7s. lld. We found excused
from poverty, which could not be collected, £336 163. ;
for void and empty property, £96 3s. 11d. ; leaving,
recoverable or irrecoverable, as circam.tances might show,
£B6 16s. 9d. That is the enormous sum which, in a parish
like Liverpool, is such a fearful weight upon the conscience
of Mr. Alderman Dover. (Laughter) Now, sir, it was
inimated to me and to_ my colleague that there were one or
two gentlemen who were desirous of being made martyrs to
this rate. ([Tear, hear.) They looked upon it a's illegal
or improper that the rector should receive a stipend from
such a source, and that the church should bo supported frOin
such a course. Mr. Came even declared his willingness to
submit to bs a martyr upon the question, notwithstanding
that the rector should even go short of his stipend. I said
that if Mr. Carne was anxious that the law should be
defined on that question, I should accommodate him upon
his own terms, and therefore, we obliged' Mr. Carne and
Mr. Littledale by submitting to the decision of the magis-
trates, whether Mr. Carne ought or ought not to pay his
amount of the rate. If the magistrates say that it is not a
legal payment, the Churchwardens will not attempt to
enforce it. If it is legal, then Mr. Carne will be accommo-
dated upon his own terms. .(Hear, hear.) Now, Mr.
Chairman' I am ready to answer any other question in
reference to this subject. (Hear )
Mr. Came : As Mr. Woodruff has brought forward my
name, I can only say that my sole anxiety for the parochial
rate being put upon a proper footing, was simply because
Mr.. Hutchison and myself, unfortunately failed to do it
in the proper way. (Hear, hear, and great laughter.)
I must also say that Mr. Woodruff has distinctly stated
wrong when he said that I wanted to save my money, or
do anything contrary to the rector.
Several voices : Mr. Woodruff never said so. • (Hear.)
Mr. Carne : On the contrary, my sole object was, that
which I declared from the beginning, I slid to Mr.
Harvey last year that if he did not think the rate was put
upon a proper footing, I would not pay it—not from any
wish to save my money, but because I wished that it
should be put upon a proper footing. These 'gentlemen
last year have not collected a single sixpence from any
body but those who chose to pay. Now this is either a
voluntary rate, or it is not. I say that when Mr. Wood-
ruff tells yon he has excused certain parties on account of
poverty, there is no power in, him to excuse anybody.
(Hear, hear.) He tells you there was only about. £BO
left uncollected. I would ask whether one gentleman,
a Quaker, has been summoned, or whether it
was confined to Mr. Littledale and to myself, because
we refused. I heard from the collectors 'themselves that
there is a vast nurnb.r of persons who refused to pay as
well as myself. Mr. Woodruff and Mr. Shaw both know
that I have had no other purpose except to have this rate
put upon a proper tooting. I therefore told them to bring
me before a magistrate, and we should then have the thing
decided. I know this is an unpopular course, but lam not
deterred by that fact. If it is not compulsory, why should
persons be forced to pay it ? If it be compulsory, then the
churchwardens are bound to do their duty. From the
legal advice' which I and my colleague received, we were
unable to enforce it. These gentle Men, however, have no
such excuse; they spent over £lOO during the last year to
have it put upon a proper footing. I have *no doubt Mr.
Mansfield will say that the rate is recoverable, and I hope in
that case that the churchwardens wig not make an exception
of Mr. Littledale or of me, bat will proceed as honest men
against everybody who refuses to pay. (Hear, hear.)
The accounts were then allowed to pass without farther
discussion.

Mr. J. R. Jeffery said : Sir, I have much pleasure in moving
that the gentlemen who so ably discharged their duties as
Churchwardens during the past two ye.irs, be re-elected to
that; office for the next two years. (Cheers.) I cannot
imagine that there will boa dissenting voice to that propoSition.
I believe we never had in the parish of Liverpool two gentle-
men who discharged their duties more disinterestedly aml with
greater impartiality on one side and the other, abandoning
extreme views, and endeavoUring to pursue a straight course,
than have the Churchwardens who occupied that office for
the past two years (Cheers.) In 'addressing this vestry, which
is the largest I had the pleasure of witnessing assembled
either within these walls or within the ways of the Parish
Church, it is not my intention sir, to accept your kind invi-
tation to meet you in the Conrt of Queen's Bench. Whatever
may be your decision, if a difference of Opinion arises here to
day, and an appeal be rendered neces,thry, I have the greatest
Objection to meet any one in the Court of Queen's Bench,
and a still greater objection to meet a clerical gentle-
man before a legal tribunal. (icar, bear and
Cheers.) And I am the less disposed, sir, to accept
that invitation, seeing, hoping, and believing, as I doy that
the next session of parliament will deal with the Eccle-
siastical Couris—(hear, hear)—will deal with the
question of Church rates-(hear)—that the one will be
abolished, and ihe other annihilated, or something more
equitable and just established. (Cheers, and cries of
Question.H)

Chairman suggested that it would he well if Jr.
Jeffery confined himself to the object of the resolution,
the appointment of two churchwardens. (dea'r )
Mr. Jeffery replied that be thought he was confining
himself strictly to the business that had been introduced
by the Chairman. (Hear, hear, and cries of " No, no,"
and hisses.)
The Chairman : I am not in the least aware that in my
opening remarks I made the slightest possible allusion to