Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

position, of changing our opinions ;. and opinions, we
know; are. changeable 'things. 'But -We were, in fact,
screwed down. He *believed that after a few years
habituation of the. French to our English' goods, the
French would begin to like them. The Fretieb will
then begin to say, "We might as -well do the. work
.ourselves ;" and, coming over here, they would take our
Skilled hands from the manufactories by bribing them
with higher wages, sell the .goods, half in "France and
half in England, realising actually a bounty of twelve
per • cent., ' which might be employed in
enticiim away our finest workmen. He (Mr. Made)
would 'be very glad .to have- a town meeting called.
Mr. Gladstone said, in his budget, " rather than cheapen
tea and sugar, and rather ,than' give any indirect benefit
to the working classes,- I will give them a direct-benefit;-
I will inerease the demand. for- our English goods ;
will increase the demand for the laboUr of the working
man ; I will increase the producing power of- the
country, Wand the Manufacturer shall be busy." But that
was not doing' us a benefit, the gperation of which,
•-pritetially; was to tempt our skilled workmen to go
abroad, to conduct manufactures hi which we rare at
present skilled. He objected that the duration of the treaty
should be:limited to ten years, when they knew not what
new circumstances inight„arise.. He knew that the rule
of free-trade was a safe and-sound one, but there was
no rule .withocii an exception, and it might in thiS
instance require some little attention
,to preserve to us
that superiority 'and pre-eminence. which was Our proud
attribute, and our great safety. (Hear, hear.) How would
the principle act ? It would act thus. By
to get a commercial treaty, and yet not. making it ;a,
navigation treaty, the, Emperor. of the French would
cause France to be the great emporium of . Eurepe.•
His pOrtg. would be the depots for all kindi,of commerce;.
for goods bonded in any of the bonded warehouses of
France might go to any part of this country ;
they came into the bonded warehouses of Liverpool:
they dare not go to :France. lie . made inquiries: in
London -as 'to the article of.sugar; and he had learned
from an eminent French merchant, that while cargoes
of sugar could be brought into France, bonded there,.
and then brought lucre, yet if these cargoes were broUght
to London' or Liverpool they could not
.go to France.
Nothing could, be more hurtful to our interests than
that—. The action of such a proposal upon us
would be very severe indeed; for the effect of
the, Budget that caw 'was -actually to intro-
dike hoanty of 4d. • for the use of bonded ware-
houses in this,country, which acted to the prejudice
,of the :home . manufacturer: , .Lie would. adviie
-thein never to deal with any person who would not deal
with thern'on-qUal terms; he would never give another,
'man power to interfere in-his affairs. He iniplored-them
not tnlet.the Emperor of. the French' have the *met
to say that he interpreted the treaty in.a'certain manner,.
anal, insist upon them fulfillinz it according to his inter-
pretation, which might entail upon them. large conces-
sions before they could' get rid of the bargain ; and
these concessions costing theth probably in the future
very much regret. .He would give these concessions to,
Franca, but he wnuld say, " Don't hatpin away your
freedom ; don't let any foreign potentate interfere with
the affairs of England." He concluded by saying that
no gpod wouldresult from a premature and ill-digested
treaty.
Mr. CHARLES HOLLAND said it appeared to him. that
,the two resolutions were not inconsistent with one
another.. ,

The CuAyntsx said he had drawn up a. rider which
he thought might be added. It recommended the pre-
sentation of a memorial to the Mayor to call a town meet-
ing for the purpose of expressing an opinion in detail upon
the,provisions of the budget and the treaty with France,
and the presentation of a memorial to Government,
pointing out the impintance of endeavouring to obtain
for the English shipping in French ports the removal of
the' existing restrictions.
Mr. HOLLAND said he confessed he did feel some de-
'sire, even after the very strong reasons a=lvanced per
contra, that this chamber should not 'be entirely silent
in the. expression, of its gegeral approval of a treaty
which, whether it could have been better, or whether it
Could have been worse, did, at all events; open the door to a,
complete change of the relationshithertoexiAing between
this country-and France. He like some other parties,
should be exceedingly glad if there was no necessity. for a
treaty whatever. As Mr. Macfie had aromed, treaties
were always very objectionable, no, doubt; but he had
argued from a different point of view than what was held
owside, and had taken up the protectionist theory, that
we, should never give up anything without receiving 'a
grad pro quo. The general view out of, doors, when
in objection to the treaty, had been rather that,
as free-tradere, we'Should have at once thrown 'open our
ports to French products, -without deeming it necessary
to make any conditions whatever. He wets one of thtise
who should at once accede to that doctrine ; but, on the
other hand, although perfectly a believer fit the truths
of free-trade -as applied to -our o.vn case, the more we
could extend the principles of free-trade upon our neigh-
Gohis, the More prosperous would our neighbours become,
and the more prosperous would be our own condition. • He
believed the two nations would become bound together
by, the increase of commercial intercourse in stronger
bonds of amity and peace ; and on these grounds he
wished the chamber should, give a general expression of
approval of the treaty, coupling it with any rider as
regarded the details. As Mr. Macfie had put it, he
feared that this treaty, coming as it would do as the
predecessor of the rest of the budget, must necessarily
be flealt,with in the first instance by Parliament, and
that if there should be no expression of approval,' or
rather any condemnation—r,hich he hardly thought there
would .be, it might deprive them of that very valuable
budget, of which he thought there could hardly he two
irreregsrpeetctiirveateiyf tdhieNFeiraetnyelwi
etrrecattye.
ariseHe should,
therefore, °tphPacisirsiiie:fonsg.re:
,f
this budget which should deprive the country
for a moment of the benehts of the most unprece-
dentelly ;favourable budget which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer- had presented to them.
Mr. MA.eFiE wished to explain. He reckoned him-
self a free-trader, but he did not regard the principles
of free-trade to be as infallible and perpetual as those of
Holy Writ. Ite believed they were principles of expe-
diency, to be applied- as a general rule, but that
it was' not necessary in every case to' apply
them.' For instance, Government allowed an exception,
to be made with regard to shipping ; and he wished' it
to 'be understood that he looked upon protection as hav-
ing a practical effect in fostering up those trades which
it judiciously protected.' He was sorry to have to op-
pose the budget, because he was a hearty supporter of
her Majesty's present government.
Mr. JouNspr said he could not agree in the remarks
of Mr: Macfie with regard to the exports of coal between
this country and France. It must be remembered that
in case of war the treaty would become void. Mr.
Made feared that' the coal of this country- might
be exhausted. Now, if Mr. Macfie would consult
the mining statistics, he would see that for at least
a thousand years to come, with all possible in-
crease of the coal trade, we were in a tolerably
safe'. condition to 'supply the world, with coal. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He did not agree with the re-
marks-of Mr. Bushell,`that drunkenness in this country
or Scotland was in any degree proportioned to the'cheap-
nesi of ardent' spirits. When he considered that in
France he could get as much brandy for twopence a 7
would cost a shilling in this country, and when the
French were a sober people and the English a drunken
people, he did not think the argument' of Mr. Bushell
was. tenable. At the same time, he sympathised with
Mr. Bushell in any:plan that could be devised to put a
cheek. upon drunkenness ; but he must say that he did
not consider that the augmented 'price .of spirituous
liquors had nt any time in, this country tended
to diminish the sin of intemperance. ' Considering the,
budget as a"question in which the masses of this country.
Were interested, he was also of opinion that some of the
important detaiis alluded to by Mr. Bushell and Mr,
/docile were -worthy' of every .considerationhear,
hear,)—and especially with regard to bonding, and the
charging of a penny a package. But he looked upon
theie as questions of detail only, compared With the mighty
moral effect which such a budget, in its entirety, would
produce in this country. It 'had been said that the
poor of this country' would not participate in it, and
that the rich and middle classes would only receive a
benefit in• the increased consumption of French wines.
But they cord& not. increase the iron and coal trades
without carrying comfort,' and happiness, and peace
into the cottages of the poor miners ; and he was ma,
-
dent that the poorest artisans in the country would he
the real participators in the benefits of the budget, if it
Were carried out. (Hear, hear.)
. Mr. UNwIN wished to know in what position the
chamber would be, if, after expressing general approval,
it subsequently opposed the Budget on its details. -
Mr. DOUGLAs said there was clearly such a diversity
of opinion that he thought it would be well to take time
to consider the subject, and to bring forward a motion
in which all of them could take part. Ile would there-
fore move the adjournment of the discussion till Friday.
Mr. APCORQUADALE said the shipping interest had