Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-03-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

, HOUSE OF COMMONS Nt
,'EDNESDAY.
Mr. S Estcourt took the oaths and his seat, on his re-
election for North Wiltshire ; and Mr. Lygon, on his re-
election for Tewkesbury.
Lord John Russell gave notice that, on the motion for
the second reading of the Reform Bill, he should move an
amendment, of which he should, on the following day, lay
the terms upon the table of the House.
On the motion of Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald, the Juries (Ire-
land) Bill was read a second time, on the understanding that
the further progress of the bill should be delayed till the
introduction of the government bill upon the subject, so
that both measures might be considered together.

CHURCH-RATES

DEFEAT OF THE MINISTRY.
Walpole moved the second reading of the Govern-
ment Church Rates Bill.
Sir John Trelawney gave credit to Mr. Walpole for the
good intentions with which the bill was introduced, but de-
clared that there was no solution of the difficulty except by
the total abolition of the rates. He discussed the details of
the bill at some length, contending that its provisions were
unsatisfactory, and concluded by moving, as an amendment,
that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Ilardc4tle seconded the amendment.
Mr. S. Estcourt said, that because a system contained cer-
tain faults and deficiencies, it was no reason for destroying
it altogether. This, however, was the mode proposed by
Sir J. Trelawney. He was sure that the House were dis-

Posed to act fairly, and would not, to suit the convenience of
the few, abolish what was admitted to provide admirably
for the wants of the many. He trusted that the House
would allow a plan to go into committee, which contained
Provisions calculated to remove the objections to the exist-
ing system.

and said that a bill was brought in by the Lancashire and
Yorkshire Company last year, seeking an amalgamation of
similar matters. -

*---Mr. 'Power, Q.C., who appeared for the Midland Rail-
way Company, said that the course suggested by Mr.
Webster, of making the Lancashire and Yorkshire pail-
way Company a party to the present bill, could not be
followed, inasmuch as the requisite parliamentary notices
had not been given.
Mr. Webster said, in that case, it could be provided for
by the insertion of a clause. They sought for protection
against agreements being made behind their becks, which

might seriously affect the traffic' of the Lancashire and
Yorkshire Company, and in the bill which was
brought in last year the committee had adopted a clause
to provide for the publicity of agreements. He (Mr.
Webster) asked that the Company, for whom be
appeared might be placed in as good a position as either of
the other companies promoting the bill, and he hoped the
committee would not allow the traffic of their line to be pre-
judiced by the arrangements which were sought for under
the bill. Mr. Webster having addressed a few observations
to the committee on behalf of the Grand Junction Canal
Company, for whom he also appeared, called
Mr. Phillips, who deposed to a clause having been intro-
duced in the bill of last year, providing for publicity of
agreements.

°Mr. Denison having been heard in reply,
Parties were ordered to withdraw, and when called in
after a lapse of fifteen or twenty minutes,
The Chairman said : The committee have come to the
following resolutions :—"That the preamble of the bill is
proved. _ The committee will
,require clauses to be brought
up-providing for the following things :—That the companies
promoting the bill shall give notice to all other railway com-
panies, whose lines touch any portion of their own lines ; that
such working and traffie arrangements have been made, and
also whenever it is intended to revise the same, the same
notice .to be.given to all canal companies similarly situated;

ie given w

hen it is in-

that a general public noti
tended•tO revise the agreement; thatpublic.general notice
shall be given in the local papers, or the London Gazette,
of such arrangements having been made and certified ; cor-
rect copies to be deposited at the head offices of the compa-
nies making the same, with the Secretary of the Board of
Trade Department, and secretary of the railway clearing-
house ; all parties to have power to inspect the same during
rAasonable hours of business, and take copies of the same,

Sir G. Grey felt himself compelled to oppose a measure
which only provided for the abolition of church rates,
when a voluntary fund equal to the average amount of the
rate should have been raised. Was it probable that the
landowners in populous places such as the metropolitan dis-
tricts, would thus come forth, and of their own accord sad-
dle their property with a permanent charge of this kind.
Yetis it was in these places that contests occurred, with all
'lose attendant scandals. Even in the country districts, if
any owner of land was ready to fix the charge upon his
estate, he could not get rid of church rates, unless others
exhibited equal readiness. He approved, after some hesita-
lln, of the Principles of the declaration by which it was
fate
that those who felt conscientious objections to the
f might be excused from paying, though he thought the
orgiin which it-now stood on the table open to objections.
justir heard -P,akington complained that the speech they. had
sdeet tsloeenttlle
anion;satru Proved that party spirit was still dominant
opposition, who would neither attempt the
pis of the qliestion themselves, nor allow others to
of the 'Le two principles of the bill were the commutation
had rate ,and the declaration which enabled those who
Sir trlscientious scruples to be relieved from its payment.
• urre‘? hadexpressed his approval of both those prin-
ciples
lecona alto yet declared his intention of voting against the
4.... reading of the bill. There was at least one advan-
;:s attending the introduction of the bill. It stripped the
afterti" of false pretences, and it would be evident here-
that the opposition to the rate had nothing to do with
conscientiouse scruples, but simply arose from hostility to
LEstablished Church. It had been said that the Church
snde was a violence to the conscience of a few, but he con-
e. eu that its abolition would be a violation to the con-
se,ll‘ees of the many. The bill was brought forward in a
47' of fairness and conciliation, and whatever might be
'ate, the ministry had made a fair offer, which had
eP• yet been done by its predecessors.
'it. R. Bethel
than its advocates imagined they were—the offspring of the
aced spiritwhich existed fourteen centuries
irked of • tolerance
°6' when all men: were compelled to be of one faith,
and to adopt the one form of worship. The bill was
compromise which he could not support.
It can the practice by which the collector called
Keriodically for money on persons who had no right to be
‘7llB called upon. Even if he could approve of the principle
? the bill, he felt sure that its details would not work, and
Would open the door to every kind of fraud.
Mr
fl, Drummond was grieved to compelled to oppose
-nue hill, but he would neither have chicrch rates abolished,
rates
tampered with, or modified. The opposition to these
attack
had nothing to do with conscience; it was a direct
'aclt upon the Established Church, and he was therefore
'RIMM to oppose this, or any other measure of the kind.
:r. pall supported the bill.
bayr. Lowe observed that the rate had all the faults of a
tax ; it was uncertain, unequal, and oppressive. He
objected,si to the measure as calculated to revive disputes in
ioac,es where they had been long extinct. The country
t:lid spurn such a compromise as that now proposed. Let
an nl adopt either the voluntary or the compulsory principle,
r not thus attempt t ) mix the two.
di, 11'. Walpole reminded the. House, that they had now to
Those the principles of the bill, and not its machinery.
tCs principles were the voluntary commutation of
overat, and the exemption of those who conscientiously
onJ eted to it. He had beard from none of its opponents
argument against either of those principles., He joined
rekindle with Mr. Lowe in his assertion that the bill would
ci-indle strife in parishes where it was now extinct, declar-
lele that it only facilitated . voluntary arrangements. He
defended the exemption clause of they bill, contending that
°thete
one hand it did no injury to the church, while on the
not a was a message of peace to the dissenters. It was
voi„e,nt of distrust that he did not entirely depend on the
whiliary princile but there were parts
.of the country
c could not be reached by that means.
Mr ,„,
of th • flanks Stanhope made some observations in favour
rigidc bill inaudible amid the impatience of the House.
hie }louse then divided, when the amendment was car-
The2s4 to 171.
bi 1 was consequently lost.
Rouse then adjourned at six o'clock.

upon payment of reasonable costs"
The committee were engaged in the discussion of clauses
up to four o'clock, when they adjourned.

THE
WIRRAL WAThR WORKS

BILL.

FROM OUR OWN REPORTER,

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday.
The Select Committee on this Bill assembled this after-
noon at two o'clock ; Mr. Kerr Seirmer in the chair.
Mr. Hawksley, cross-examined by Mr. Hope Scott, Q.C. :
As a general principle, I prefer gas and water works being
in the hands of private companies rather than under the
_ _

management of public bodies. In 1857, I proposed two new
wells for the Birkenhead water-works. They were rather

more than A mile and a quarter from each other, but they
had no reference to drawing water from each other. We
had reasons to believe that we should be opposed by the

Birkenhead Commissioners as to the site of one well,
and I, therefore, thought it desirable to have
two strings to one 'bow. Latterly, there has been
a depression in the supply of water at the Liver-
pool wells. Since yesterday, I have made a measurement,
and I find that over the area of the Liverpool wells, there

is only a depth of six inches of water. .There has been a
depression of 54 feet in the water-level in the yielding
power in the area of the district, caused by the water drawn
from the Green-lane well, the property of the Liverpool
corporation.
Re-examined by Mr. Webster: I stated yesteiday, that
in the red sandstone formation, wells three miles apart will
be affected by each other, and I repeat that statement.

The Green-lajne well affects wells three miles distant. On
the Liverpool side of • the Mersey, in consequence of the
exhaustion of the fresh water by pumping, the salt water
has found its way into the wells, and has necessitated the
abandonment of the wells, which have been im-
pregnated. At the • Green-lane well the water was
originally of the same quality as the water on the Birken-
head side, namely, five or six degrees of hardness, but it has
now become, in consequence of the pumping process, of
twelve degrees of hardness. _ _ _

O
By Mr. Hope Scott : In 1845 an act was applied for by
the Liverpool Paving Commissioners, and in that act there
was a clause inserted which provided that no wells should
be sunk by the Commissioners within the parliamentary
borough of Liverpool, or the township of Toxteth Park. or
Within the distance of a mile and a quarter from _the Wind-
sor well, or one mile from,the Harrington well.

By the Chairman : I do not attribute the depression of
the water level on the Liverpool side of the Mersey to any
deficiency in the rainfall, but wholly to the exhaustion of
the fresh water by the pumping process. The original level
of the water at the Green-lane well was about 30 feet from
the surface, but the well is now about 180 feet deep.
The Chairman : But the original level was occasioned
by the accumulation of water, which you could never
expect to find again after you had once exhausted it.
Mr. Hawkesley : As we pumped the water out, of course
the level gradually went lower and lower. Recent
examinations have shown that the water level is now
depressed 54 feet lower than it was when 1,000,000 gallons
per day were obtained.
Mr. Cunningham : Mr. Duncan says that is not so.

Mr. Hawkaey : I believe Mr. Duncan is here, but I
have had more experience than Mr. Duncan, and I say
it is a fact. _ _ _ .

This was the case for the Birkenhead CommissiOners.
Mr. Robert Ellison Gorst, examined by Mr. Calvert : I am

a surgeon, residing at Bebi)ington I attended a meeting
in Tranmere, in February, for the introduction of the local
government act. I also attended and presided at another
meeting for the same purpose, on the 4th of March. Mr.
Lloyd, solicitor, explained the circumstances under which
the meeting was called. Mr. Gill then entered a protest
against the legality of the meeting. The local government
act was explained, and a motion moved for its adoption.
An amendment was moved, but a resolution for the intro-
duction of the bill was carried by a majority of 3 to 1.
Cross-examined by Mr. Hope Scott : The question of the
local government act was not started until very recently. I
did not ascertain until some time after Mr. Perrey's letter,
that there was such an act in existence. There was a board
of health in existence in Tranmere, about a year ago, but
I believe it has died out. I know nothing of the origin or
acts of the board ; all I know of it was, that it was of very
little use. It was useless from the want of power. I have
long ceased to take an interest in it
Mr. Hope Scott : In point of fact it had plenty of will,
but no power.
Witness : Very probably I was requested by Mr.
Liversidge and Mr. Webb to allow my name to be
used as summoning officer under the local government act.
Mr. Webb had a water scheme of his own some time
ago. I did not apply to the Secretary of State for the
appointment of summoning officer, nor do I know who did;
but it was most likely done by the gentlemen who waited
on me. Twenty ratepayers signed a requisition to me to
call a meeting, and, when I received the appointment, I
convened one accordingly. The meeting was a general
one, and the protest was against the general character of
the meeting, Mr. Gill contending that it was not such a
meeting as was contemplated by the local government
act. The meeting was a very stormy one. My son was
present at the meeting, but I was not aware of the fact
until the proceedings were over. I am not aware that
he voted.
Mr. Hope Scott : Then for what purpose was he there ?
Witness : I suppose to escort me home. (A laugh)
Mr. Hope Scott : A very dutiful son. (Laughter)
Cross examination continued : A poll was demanded at
the meeting, but the result is not likely to "be known for
some time—not until the labours of this committee are over.
Re-examined : For my own part I should have been
glad if the sitting of the committee could have been post-
poned until the result of the poll was ascertained.
The proceedings were going on when our parcel was
despatched.

THE
LONDON &NORTH WESTERN
RAILWAY,

AND OTHER RAILWAY COMPANIES
CWORSING AND TRAFFIC ARRANGEMENTS)
BILL.

ITANT RESOLUTIONS OF THE COMMITTEE

[FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.]

The HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNESDAY.
'Clutir. committee sat at one o'clock, Mr. Ridley in the
I,l°llrth! committee assembling,
asliire Webster proceeded to open the petition of the Lan-
cer tlli„ it!t, d Yorkshire Railway Company, against the passing
!hire /11311. He submitted that the Lancashire and York-
.?e tri,,atiNvay Company should, to all intents and purposes,
be eff,;', Parties to the arrangements which were sought to
any:e;'ed under the present bill, inasmuch as that corn-
bill, e„il common with the three companies promoting the
astlihseirej°Yed stations upon the respective lines of railway of
°Mpanies. Beyond that, they may relieve the Lan-
and wod Yorkshire Company from the extreme difficulty
inl„Zesnl, and a state of circumstances Under which it is
ag4e ible that company could assent to the proposed
Tway they unless the promoters of the bill met them in the
shirec proposed, and make the Lancashire and York-
le° that°lllinpaasmnyueplairatsiebsyto the bill. The committee would
the Gre the existing legislation, assuming
ltailiva at Northern, and the Manchester and Sheffield
atra_ Y Companies have now the means of making
ee,ruements in respect of the traffic which
line:, on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company's
I.,,,._neFause they
.possessed stations in common. If the
o'rlsitibill passed in its present form, the Lancashire and
i re Company beinc, no parties to it, the London and
North-Western Company,who had another common NAPOLEON I. AND LORD WHITWORTH, IN
'
intyerest at Liverpool, Preston, and many other places, would 1803, COMPARED WITH NAPOLEON 111.,
Willie:le means of making arrangements in respect of traffic IN 1859.
cashir came to and from stations upon the line .of the Lan- to THE EDITOR OF THE NORTHERN TIMES.
weuldesand Yorkshire Railway Company. The committee Sir,—Savary,, who was an eye-witness at the
ure, it
e? that if arrangements of the nature contemplated
IllaUtdercelebrated interview, thus writes : " I was only at
. s measure were to receive the sanction of the Legis-
was impossible that could be done, unless the Lan- 1 the distance of a few paces from the First Consul,
cashire and Yorkshire Company, who were as much interested when, stopping before the English Ambassador, he
1'
arrant' " other Company could be in the proposed traffic put the following hurried questions to Lord Whit-
,
lien 6. .
l 'lents, were made parties to those arrange-
worth, in a tone of anger :
,re the Companies
had The Lancashire and Yorkshire Company 1 ' What does your Cabinet mean ? What is the
a much greater interest in all these matters than 1 motive for raising these rumours of. armaments in
en
promoting the bill could possibly have, ! our harbours ? How is it possible in this manner
act use a glance at the map would show that, in point of to impose on the credulity of nations, or to be so
, a large portion of the traffic flowing. from London to ' ignorant of our real intentions. . . . If the
'the
north was local traffic and it was in respect of this : actual state of things be known, it mast be evident
local traffic that they were most virtually interested. They to all that there are only two transports fitting out
were carriers from the manufacturing districts, an for S& Doming
go. . . : Why th,en these com-
Eue afgoarinwtaorlr d,felaged with blood ?
consequently were identical in the same interest plaints? ~,,_
reparatiolsns
lvith,the promoting Companies. Such being the case, he ,
destroyed, but never intimidated.' ''
(Elie ,earned counsel) asked why wero they not to be made i
awe
us. .c, making • o pretend to over-
Parties to this bill ; He would say, that p.racticall;. and x ranee may be conquered, perhaps
st,b stantially this w. as, so far as the Lancashire and ork-
s with the letter to Sir Francis Head,
Compare this shire
Company and the public were concerned, an amalga-
!nation bill. His learned friend, Sergeant Wraugham, had and draw your own conclusions, gentle reader.
retorted upon them, that it was not an amalgamation bill, Yours/ &c., ANTI-HUMBUG.