Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-01-17 00:00:00

THE NORTHERN TIMES,. IVfONEMY, JANUARY 17, 1859

perfectly competent to_the Dock Beard to do that work
out of tie surplus revenue, without going to parllament
at all. I maintain, further, that if you go to parliiiment
this session, and if you obtain from parliament the power
to borrow £300,000, you could not do, one whit more in
the next twelve months than you can de,without going to
parliament at all ; and, therefore, why should you. go.
(Hear, hear.) Why, in the first place, should you. be
even put to the expense, if it be only a matter of £5OO,
since I maintain that you could not do more if you had
the power from Parliament than you can do now ? (Hear,
hear.) Now let me draw your attention to some of the
difficulties with which you may be met when you go to
Parliament. You will have to go into the whole finan-
cial position of the estate ; you will have to.prove, as far
as you can—which, I think, you will have a difficulty in
doing—that you can get the money in week by week at
a certain rate. Now, I know that one gentleman who
has spoken on the subject, and who is opposed
to going to Parliament, is so npon those very grounds,
and that gentleman is one of the nominee members.
I think, from the whole of the discussion which
took place in the provisional board, we, may see that
the three gentleman who are the nominee members
will take one view upon this question, and that
is that it is inexpedient to go to parliament during
the next session. Since the last board we have
another nominee member. lam sorry that we have not
the pleasure of seeing that gentleman at the board to-
day ; but his opinions are well known. He will be of
the same opinion as the other nominee members. Well,
sir, I may be met with the reply—" What of that ? The
nominee members do not occuy any other position than
the elected members : their opinions are of no more
value ; they can have no more weight ; it can make no
difference whether they are nominee members or elective
members ; whether they vote this way or that way ;
all parties at this board are equals." But lam not dis-
posed to admit that to the fullest extent. I conceive an
alteration will take place when you go to parliament -
and a very clear and distinct one, too. There has been
so much said about their occupying precisely the same
position that I take this opportunity of drawing the at-
tention of 'the board, to show you, with reference to this
very going to parliament, that you may possibly find
there is a distinction. But, even without that, I main-
tain that there is no occasion for me to go out of this
room to prove that there is a distinction. I would appeal
to Mr. Bushell whether, on the occasion of his making
his grand speech—l am sorry I have not the paper here
—he did not make use of the argument that the docks
would no longer be viewed as the local property of Liver-
pool—that they had become national property. (Hear,
hear, from Mr. Bushell.) The very fact that he had
accepted a seat at the board, was one of his proofs that
they were national property. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir,
you go to parliament next session. Tho Govern-
ment consider the question. The first thing
they will lo9k at is this—" How have the four repre-
sentatives of our own at the board voted-what are
their opinions ?" They examined—they see that all
those gentlemen are decidedly opposed to going to par-
liament this session. Will anybody tell me that that is
not the ground for the Government to form an opinion
upon ? Most decidedly. That is one of the difficulties
which will meet you upon going to parliament. Ido
not know whether it is necessary for me to detain the
board any longer. I think I have very clearly and dis-
tinctly shown that I have the authority of the solicitor
for saying, we can apply the surplus revenue to new
works without going to parliament. The works pro-
posed at the north of the Canada dock, to make con-
veniences for the timber trade, would involve an expense
of about £160,000. These works can be carried out
without going to parliament at all out of the surplus
revenue ; and therefore I believe it is neither desirable
nor is it expedient that you should go to parliament this
session : and I beg leave accordingly to move, as an
amendment, "That it is not expedient to go to parlia-
ment during the ensuing session."

Mr, Bushell seconded the amendment.
The Chairman : It is a mere negative,

Mr• Smith Then I put it as a -mere negative,
• • ..

Mr. Bold said Mr. Smith would have judged more
wisely if he had confined himself to giving the reasons
which prompted him in his vote on the last occasion,
without ascribing motives and reasons to the other
members who voted with him. Mr. Smith had stated
that the other gentlemen who voted in the minority had
said they woald not sanction any money being borrowed
for this side till the works at Birkenhead were completed.
He (Mr. Bold) would most distinctly state that he
never entertained such a view in his life ; and Mr. Smith
was, therefore, entirely wrong. His opposition to going
to. Parliament this session was solely and
.wholly upon
the financial position of the estate. He gave no other
reason. He agreed in considering there was a necessity
for accommodation being given to the carriers, and a
little additional accommodation to the steam trade ; but
he never said he would not sanction any money being
laid out on his side. He was an advocate for it 'to a
certain extent : but he did deprecate going to Parlia-
ment because he 'fully expected they would be defeated
'when in Parliament. Going for so small a sum, when
they would require more next year, was, in his opinion,
impolitic and unwise.
Mr. Bushell : I, like Mr. (Bold, "dissent from Mr.
Smith's conclusions as to the reasons that were given by
members in voting for going to parliament in the ensuing
session. Any one remembering my observations must
know that my objections were purely on financial grounds.
I need not refer to the observations made by Smith, be-
cause the course which he has taken now is precisely that
which was taken by me when I applied to the solicitor
and asked him to give us definite information whether
we had power to deal with surplus ,revenue or not. Mr.
Rankin's estimate, which I believe is a correct one, or
at least if not correct, the correction will be in favour of
a large rather than of a small surplus from our annual
revenue. Mr.- Rankin's estimate tells us we shall have a
surplus at the end of 1859 of £150,000. Now, if there
be one weak point in the case by going to Parliament
now, it is in the fact that you arc going for £300,000.
Why, sir, you have half that sum in your possession now,
and I. do think that to raise ill-feeling by going to
parliament now, under such circumstances, would be
the most impolitic step that this board ever did or ever
can take. Consider for a moment of the storm, which
I won't attempt to picture, but which you may already
see is beginning to patter, though not in consequence of
the amount of £300,000 which you propose to borrow,
and which is so paltry that it can hardly raise opposition,
but it is a consequence of the principle involved, and
that principle is great. You will, most assuredly on the
Found of principle, provoke opposition ; and is the board
in a position to resist successfully the amount of opposi-
tion that will be raised against it ? Sir; one other reason
is, that at the present, with this surplus in hand, Mr.
Hartley can undertake the work there, that this board
has decided upon, immediately; he can effect those pro-
jects which-are most needed by the water carriers, and
can give that further accommodation which is very much
required for the steam marine of this port. These things will
be delayed if you go to parliament ; they will be delayed
until the end of this year at least, whereas if you re-
frain from going to parliament you may go on with them
at once: I here .is no doubt .that from the discussions
that have taken place at this board—in feet we have had
the evidence of it—have produced something like a feel-
ing-of distrust among the moneyed interest of the conn-
try with regard to the position of this board. It has
been charged against me that that "great" speech of
mine, as it is called, at this board did more than any-
thing else to check the flowing in of m.oney to the coffers
of this board. But, in my own defence, I must assert
that which I conscientiously believe - that thediscussions.
which have taken place at this board have done more
than anything else to put this trust into a higher and
better position, when it shall be fully, and fairly, and
justly considered by the public. We are now in a better.
position and more trustworthy than we have been for
Many years past ; and why ? Because a spirit of
economy has sprung lip in this board ; and the public
must now see that anything of that tendency which
formerly existed in that respect with regard to. these
gigantic schemes, and the construction of great- works,
no longer exists ; and that it it exists in the minds of
some gentlemen, there is a p?wer with others to prevent
that scheme being carried into effect. Now,. there is
another advantage. You go to Parliament ; you incur

the expense of from £3,000 to £5,000 ; you take away

from the board the engineer, the solicitor, the chairman,
and some of the leading members who are of the parlia-
mentary committee of the board, so as positively to
throw a substantial impediment in the way of the pro-
ceeding with these works, which we have undertaken
faithfully and honestly to carry out.. We, as merchants
—whether we are merchants' or manufacturers are
bound in honour, when we 'undertake to do a certain
work within a limited time—no matter how much our
profits may seem to be in undertaking further works—
yet, if these further works are an impediment to carrying
out the works already constructing, we should not look
to the right nor to the left, nor should we be turned away
by any reason whatever from our purpose, This board
has unanimously consented—or the late board did, and
I think the present board will—because I know the
spirit and feeling of some of our new members, the board
has consented to a committee to consider the working of
the docks.
The Chairman : There is no appointment of such a
committee that I know of. I think you are mistaken,
Mr. Bushell. _ .

Mr. Bushell : Well, the late board did, and I have
no doubt the present board will appoint a comm;tt—
the purpose which I have indicated. Surely
too 'much to ask, Recing the changes that have
place and thg wonderful faoilitits that have arisen in inc