The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-03-12 00:00:00

man is the official representative of the committee, awl I
b-g to refer the council to the accoant Mr. Cooper has
given on behalf of the committee. We have no secrets
in the committee at all, and any further information
which is required, Mr, Cooper, as our chairman will
give.

Mr. Beckwith : I think Mr. Bennett is perfectly in
order: It does not follow that because a person is a
member of •the committee his tongue should be tied in
the council chamber, when otherwise we can get no in-
formaticn. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Bennett : Mr. Cooper, the chairman, has told us
that he does ❑ot consider the water wlil be pure for nine
or twelve months. I ask Mr. Tinne if, in making that
statement, he is the organ of the committee ?

Mr. Tinne : I have appealed to the Mayor to say
whether it is in order, after the chairman has stated that
he will give all the information in his power, to proceed
thus with unofficial statements.

The Mayor : I think Mr. Bennett i 3 in order in stating
facts.

Mr. Bennett said it was very new and incomprehensible
to him to be told that the water would not be fit to drink
for twelve months.

Mr. Cooper: I told you so a hundred times.
Mr. Bennett said his own belief was that the water
would never be fit to drink, if that were what
the chairman mean'. As regarded its arriving
nearer and nearer to perfection in the course of
the next twelve months, he did not believe a word of it—
he thought it wouli be worse as the summer advanced.
As regarded brewing, Mr. Beckwith had endeavoured to
throw a slur upon the statement of Mr. Parker, but he
begged to call the attention of the Council to the fact, to
which it was absolutely necessary they should open their
eyes, that almost every brewer either had a well and was
getting machinery to work it, or if he had not, was
going to sink one. These were facts and stubborn facts.
Mr. Earle : Would you mention any brewers' names,
sir ?

Mr. Bennett said he could mention more than one or
two. As to the effects cif the water upon levd pipes, he
should not be doing his duty to the inhabitants if he did
not again solemnly declare his belief th.st the Rivington
water sustained much injury by passing through lead
pipes. He was strengthened in that view by a great
many fans which he should not detail then, but he should
caution everybody against drinking the water from lead
pipes or lead cisterns. The time would very soon come
when his words would be verified. He knew that the
health of his own family had suffered from drinking the
water from lead pipes, and he was now compelled to send
to a spring at some distance for the drinking supply of
his own house. Finally, Mr. Bennett declared that he
made these remarks to show that he would have no part
or parcel in poisoning th© people. (Rear, hear, and
laugh t er.)
The proceedings were then confirmed.

LIBRARY AND MUSEUM COMMITTBE.
The proceedings of this committee were read. They
included a communication from the Architectural Association
of London, in reference to the competition for designs for the
New Library and Museum. The association expressed plea-
sure at the efforts of the committee to secure for Liverpool a
building worthy of it, but they protested against the principle
of not entrusting the work to the successful competitor, when
he was competent to undertake it.
Mr; Picton moved the confirmation of the proceedings.
Mr. Beckwith seconded the motion.
Mr Robertson Gladstone : Do we understand that the
plans and designs for the new building will be laid before us
when they are ready ?
The Mayor : I have no information on the subject.
Mr. Piston : Oh, undoubted:y they will be brought before
the Council when they are ready.
•Mr. Hodson : Are the plans in such a forward state that
they will be ready at the time of the laying of the foundation
stone ?

Mr. Picton : Yes; the plans are in the hands of the sur—
veyor, who states that all possible diligence is being used with
them, and he promises they will he ready by the time the stone
is to be laid:

The matter then dropped, and the proeeedings were eon-
filmed.

lIICKNEY CAURIAGES COMMITTER.

The proceedings of this committee were read.
Mr. Sheil asked when the bye-laws would be submitted to
the Council for approval ? He also took the opportunity to
urge that the cab stand i❑ Haigh street was improperly placed,
it being immediately in front of a large girls' school.
Mr. Woodruff replied that the bye-laws would be submitted
at the earliest possible period. As to the stand in Haigh
street, it was placed these when the land was vacant, 'and,
though the committee were anxious to remove it, the cabmen
would not stir until compelled to do so by a law.
The procee&ngs were confirmed, as were also those of the
Baits Committee, on which Air. Graves was elected in the room
of Mr. John Gladston', jun.
Mr, Alderman Coop .r moved that Mr. Graves be also
elected on tile Water Committee in the room of Mr. John
Gladstone,

Mr. M‘Guffle seconded the model,.
Mr. Hodson suggested that Mr J. R. Jeffery should be
placed on it, hut made no motion to that effect,
A mernolial of the guardians of the poor of the West Derby
Union, as to the ropiiety of causing public baths and wash-
houses to be erected in the several townships of West Derby,
Toxteth Park, Evelton and Kirkdale, was read.
Mr. J. B. Braucker moved that it be referred to the Baths
Committee.

Mr. Tinne seconded, the motion, and in doing so observed
that some years ago sites were purchased in those districts
for the erection of balls and wasithouses. He doubted,
however, whether this was the proper time for the Corporation
to undertake any new expense.
The motion was agreed to.
The proceedings of the GAS and Birkenhead Dock Com
mittees were confirmed. They contained nothing of interest.
A sum of £226 Is 6d, amount of expenses to be reimbursed
to the Town Clerk, under the "registration of rates act," was
passed.

The Coroner's account, amounting to £42 17s, was also
passed.

An application from Mr. Eleazar Roberts, clerk in the
magistrates' clerks office, for an increase to his salary, and reso-
lution of the magistrates recommending that' such salary be
increased from £lOO to £l3O per annum ; and an appplication
from Mr. William Jameson, governor of the borough gaol at
Walton, for an increase to his salary, and recommendation of
the tnagis:rates recommending that such salary be increased by
the sum of £lOO per annum at least, was referred to the
Finatle Committee.

WALLABEY CHURCH.
An application from the committee of Wallasey church,
asking from the Corporation a contribution towards the expense
of ifs re-erection,

The Mayor observed that the committee preferred to erect
it by voluntary efforts than by means of church rates, and that
it was on that ground that they applied to the Corporation.
Mr. Alderman S. Hotline suggested that it should be referred
to the Finance Committee..

Mr. Robertson Gladstone said that the payment of any
contribution to such an object would be illegal, even though
it were sanctioned by the Council. He could scarcely confine
his feelings to an expression of surprise that such an appli-
cation. should be made to the Council. They had churches
enough already on their hands ; and if they entertained this
application, where would it end ? He was told that the
Dissenters were going to build, forthwith, two chapels in that
immediate locality. Was the Corporation prepared to con •
tribute towards them ? He nay astonished that men living
in this century should make such an application ; and he was
happy to find that at the last Council the truth was told them,
when they were informed by a member that it was not the
" poor niao's church." (Hear, hear.) lie would move that
the application he ordered to lie on the table. (Hear, hear).
Mr. J. R. Jeffery seconded the motion.
Mr. Alderman S. Holme suggested that, through courtesy,
they should refer it to the Finance Committee, who would
take the opinion of the Town Clerk on it.
Mr. Kiel said that by referring it to the Finance Committee
they would admit the principle. (Hear, hear.) The council
could net admit the principle, because they had no funds out of
which they could possibly appropriate a contribution to the
church, unless it were out of what was commonly called the
surplus income, which again they were prevented by the 92acl
section of the act, from appropriating to any purpose but for
the improvement of the town, or the general benefit of the
inhabitants. No one would say that the granting of this
contribution would be fur the improvement of the town, or
the general benefit of the inhabitants. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M`Guffle agreed with Mr. Shiel, that to refer it to the
Finance Committee would he to admit the principle.
Mr. J. R. Jeffery observed that a short time since they
were told that the Finance Committee had too much to do,
and yet now the deputy chairman was anxious that more work
should be cast on them. He would promise them that if they
referred the application to the committee, he would present
two petitions from the other side of the water, the one for
a contribution towards the erection of a Baptist chapel, and the
other towards an Independent chapel.
Mr. Picton said that it was for the Council, and not for the
committee, to decide on the principle. The I rinciple was well
understood, and there would be no want of courtesy in not
referring it to the committee.
Mr. W. Earle was also opposed to.having it referred to the
Finance Committee. He thought it was a very extraordinary
and not a very delicate request to make, and it was much better
that it should be ordered to lie on the table, to prevent such
questions been coining before thorn. (Hear, hear.) They
should not countenance them in ally way. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. B. Brancker concurred with Mr. Earle.
Mr. Clint also opposed the applications
Mr. C. Tuner said that as the vote would be illegal, it
would be much better to let it lie on the table.
Mr. Alderman S. Holme said that gentlemen misunderstood
him, He merely suggested that it should be referred to the

committee, but made no motion to that effect. It was for the
Coune'l to say whether it should lie on the table.
M-. Alderman Dover did not know that he would let it
lie on the table. (eaughter.) The application was made to
them on the ground that they had been again and again
recommended to build churches and chapels, namely, the
voluntary principle. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The com-
mittee were unwilling to lay a church rate for the erection of the
church, but they resolved to call upon the different owners of
property in the district for a contribu ion towards it: The
Corporation were owners of large property there, and was it
therefore unnatural that they should call upon them, and test
the sincerity of those members of the Council who were always
contending for voluntaryism. (Hear, hear.) It was a
generally received fact that the presence of a church improved
the vales of property, and it might be on that ground that this
application was made, namely, with a view to the improvement
of the Corporation property, (I.slighter.) Gentlemen, too,
should remember the fact, though a section of the
Council were apt to forget it, that when they
ntercd the Council they made a solemn declaration that
they would not use any influence which that position gave
then antagonistic to the Established Church—(Lear, heat)
and he contended that so long as there was -an Established
Church, that Established Church had a preference ever all
other churches. (Mar, hear.) He did not mean to say that
ho was so illiberal or bigotted as to vete against such applica.
tions as those referred to by Mr. Jeffery. On the contrary, he
would say let them have churches and chapels, whether built
by volunteryisro or other means. Churches were for the
ItenePt of mankind, and the council should encourage them by
all means. I❑ coeclusion, Mr. Dover urged that it would be
n:ore economical to give a contribution than to hare a tax
levied en them for the erecion of the church.
Mr. Gladstone's motion was ultimately carried nem. con.,
and the application ordered to lie on the table.
A memorial from " the Northwich and Winsford Chamber
of Commerce," manufacturers of suit in the Valley of Weaver,
praying for a reduction of the Town Dues on salt to one
farthing per ton, or to such other sum as may be deemed
reasonable, was referred to the Finance Committee.
THE CORPORATE PROPERTY.
The next business on the paper was a motion of which
notice had been given by Mr. Robertson Gladstone, as
follows : —To ask what pro, ress has been made in the
preparation of the return of the real estate of the Corpo-
ration, ordered on the 14th February, 1855. To ask
when the return will be completed and laid before the
Council. To move for a return of all the property of the
Corporation let to tenants at will or on lease, of which
the original term did not exceed 14 years showing where
situated, the names of the occupiers, and the annual
rent.

Mr. Gladstone said : Mr. Mayor, it will be in the re-
collection of the Council that, something more than two
years ago, I believe, I moved for a return of all the pro-
perty belonging to the Corporate estate. That return
was ordered, but up to the present time it has not been
laid before the Council. I observe in the accounts for
the last par the sum of £lO9 charged for the preparation
of that return. I think the Council will not consider that
I am asking anything which is preposterous when I
require to know whit progress has been made according
to the terms of my notice in that return.
Mr. Alderman Holme said : In consequence, sir, of
Mr. G'adstone having given notice of his intention
to ask this question, I put myself in communication
with the surveyor, that, I might give a distinct
answer. Before doing so, perhaps the Council would
permit me, in justice to the surveyor himself, as
by implication he may be. considered to have neglected
cerrying oat a motion which the Council sanctioned two
years ago. I may give a short outline of the gigantic
nature of the work which the order of the C iuntil involves.
At present I find that the outlined plans have all been
made, and are now being filled up with every distinct
lease issued by the Corporation over the immense surface
of their property. There will be about 120 distinct
plans required, each plan, I find, being equal in size to
the ordnance sheets, which T think are somewhere about
three feet by two feet in s:ze. Every one of these sheets
has to be collated with the counterparts of every lease
issued by the corporation, and then a voluminous book
of reference has to accompany it, and upon the plans
must be put every dimension in figures of the corporate
property to make it thoroughly understood by any person
who goes to consult it. The Council are aw ire that the
leases are constantly varying in number, but as nearly as
I have been able to ascertain, the number of leases at
present is about 4,500, and every one of these requires
the distinct and separate attention of the surveyor.
But take is more, sir ; for, if I were to take
the land held by Mr. Lace, in Catherine street, Percy
street, and an immense surface comprised by one lease ;
and likewise the land held by the representatives of the
lase Mr. Falkner, it would be known to many Of the
gentlemen here that dozens, scores of leases have been
issued by Mr. Lace, all in the lease originally granted to
him, but of which, as he sells one place, under the agree-
ment entered into at the first issuing of the lease to him,
he requires a distinct lease to every one of the putties to
whom he sells ; and this first involves the surveyor in as
much trouble as the original lease granted to him. The
same is the case with regard to the property held by the
representatives of Mr. Falkner, a) that although the
number of leases is about 4,500 in the first instance, it
amounts, I believe, to many more than that in consequence
of the reason I bave given. Then, sir, I find that the
surveyor has, as the connei6is aware, to devote a very
considerable portion of his time to the committees of this
Council. He has the examination of all the tradesmen's
accounts ; be has the repairs of the whole of the property;
be has the preparing of plans for all our new structures;
and those who have seen the large voluMes which
have come from his hands regarding the contracts for the
new police courts alone, would see the amount of labour
he had had in the instance of one building. We have
then thrown upon hint the preparation of plans for the
new library and museum, and this, together with his duty
in estimating the fines for the renewal of every lease,'
involving a personal examination in many cases of the
property, together, too, with multifarious duties of a
manor nature, will leave him very little time for such a
gigantic work as the Council has now imposed upon
him. (Hear, bear) He has himself to devote his per-
sonal attention to the original bringing; out of every lease
—the putting them upon the plan, being the mechanical
part, and the mechanical part alone, is done by the
assistant clerk, whose salary has been alluded to by Mr.
Gladstone, as having been paid last year by the Council.
Now, sir, the Council have ordered this, and, therefore,
I have nothing to say about it, except this—that when
the plan is completed, and the whole of the information
is obtained, it will be very much like an ency-
clopedia, and will become in a very short time to
a details extent passes. Last week alone we had twenty-
three app:ications for new leases, of which twenty.one
have been passed by the council, and a'l of which will
cause alterations in the entries of the book, and in some
cases even in the plans themselves by the new distribu.
tion of property; and the result wilt be, that the plans,
as a whole, will never be thoroughly correct, although it
will be correct in parts. Much better information will
always be obtained by applying to Mr. Topping, who
records every change, than any plan the surveyor can
produce will afford. The surveyor, however, assures me
that he devotes every possible portion of his time to the
preparation of the plans; and I do happen to know, that
so much is he overworked, that he is obliged to do a very
considerable portion of the public business at his own
house, by frequently working late and rising early. I
may as well answer Mr. Glatistone's second question at
once, by stating that the surveyor informs me, that as he
cannot delegate the matter to others, except the
mechanical part, it will not be before the end of the
year before it will be possible to lay plans before the
Corporation which will be correct records of the whole
of the extensive property.
Mr. J. R. Jeffery believed that when the surveyor was
appointed, which, speaking from memory, he thought
was about ten years ago, there was a resolution. passed to
the effect that he should be permitted as an architect
oat of doors, to complete a work which be had then in
hand. Now, he believed be was right in saying that to
that hour be was the architect and sou: veyor of the building
on Brawnlow Hill. used as the workhouse or the parish
of Liverpool. A great deal of his time must be occupied
in the discharge of that particular duty, He should like
to ask the deputy chairman of the Finance Committee if
he could inform him what might have been the amount
of commission received by Mr. Weightman for the
discharge of his duties upon that building during the
time he had been in the employment of the Corporation,
receiving £lOOO a year for duties which his predecessor
had performed for £7OO. He thought be was perfectly
in order in asking that question, when be saw in the
expenditure of the past year an amount of over £lOO
paid for assistance rendered to their officer, who was
in the receipt of money for duties performed
otherwise than in the employment of the Council.
It was the duty of the Council tosee that their stipendiaries
gave them the whole of their time, and he could not think
so harshly of a former Council as to believe that they
supposed for one moment that so comparatively insigni-
ficant a sentence, comprising so few words, which had
been passed on the occasion he had referred to, permitting
the surveyor to complete the work he had in hand, would
have authorised the occupation of so much of his time
spread over a period of ten years. He could not consider
the surveyor over worked so long as he was performing
other duties, and he contended that the surveyor should
have resigned the building into the hands of the P'oer
Law Board, when he found that if he continued it he
could not do the work for which he was appointed by the
Council, and for which he was paid so handsome, so
princely a salary.
Mr. liolme said it was understood distinctly at the time,