The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-03-13 00:00:00

DOCK COMMITTEE.

The weekly meeting of the Dock Committee was held at
one o'clock, yesterday ; Charles Turner, Esq., in the
chair. The other members present were Messrs. Rankin,
Robinson. Brocklebank, Chaloner, Gladstone, Holden,
Mondell, Clint, Rathbone, Anderson, Bold, Smith, Evans,
Halhead, Rounthwaite, and James Holme.
TIIF: DOCK ESTATE AND THE COMING ELECTION.
Mr. Rathbone, before the business commenced, said—
Mr; Chairman, I think it necessary to make some remarks
on a subject personal to myself, with regard to some
remarks which have been made in reference to what
passed at our last meeting. I should like to know which
is the proper time—now, or when ?
The Charman: Whenever you like, sir.
Mr. Rathbone : I was very much surprised to see the
report of what passed after the reporters had left, in a
newspaper next morning. Being a new member, I had
supposed that it was understood that anything which
passed after the reporters had left, unless indeed its
privacy was protested against at the thre by some
member, was considered as a confidential communication.
' The Chairman: Certainly.
Mr. Rathboue: With that understanding I brought the
Subject forward, and I think I made it pretty clear at the
time that I did so with that understanding. I was very
much astonished, therefore, to hear that it had been
suggested that I myself put the report into the Mercury.
was astonished, too, to hear that one ground for the
suggestion was, that the report of my speech was con.
sidered a .correct one. Now, I must confess that when I
read it I was annoyed ; in the first instance, at the report
itself—at its being published at all; and then, at the
manner in which the matter was reported. As I read it,
nearly the whole report appeared to consist of protests as
to the purity of my motives. Now, I never used such
words, because if a man's own character will not prove
the purity of his motives, his own protestations will not do
it. The only ground on which I guarded myself as to my
reasons for bringing the subject forward, which were in
seeder to promote the object I had in view, of preventing
what I thought injurious to the dock estate. With that
view I brought it forward, and if I had thought it right
or wise at all that the subject should be brought before
the public, there is nothing which could have prevented
me from 'doing so ; and I should not have hesitated in
bringing it before the public, whatever might have
been thought of my motives. I was therefore
very much surprised that what I cannot help
thinking a very unworthy suggestion e had been
• made—namely, that I, myself, had supplied the
report which appeared in the newspaper. I should not
have thought of accusing any one inthis committee, whose
life had been hitherto free from anything like hypocrisy
or want of honour, of such conduct as I should have been
guilty of, if, after what I stated in the 1-Jeginning of my
remarks, and after having professe
the understanding that the myselfsatisfied with
would take care such fnairman of each committee
then published are " r again, I had
cmgs did not occur
enort of the proceeding in a newspaper.
I justthis statement, because I not. one
r.- 0,, ea to make
" who eousider that men may do, for political
,erpeses, what it would be dishonourable in them to do
for personal and private ends. I can see no difference
between an act committed politically and au act committed
privately. If it is dishonourable and ungentlemanly in the
one case, it is dishonourable and ungentlemanly in the
other. If after what occurred I had supplied that report
to the paper, I should certainly consider myself guilty of
a dishonourable and ungentlemanly act.
Mr. Clint said it had been partly his intention to 'call
the attention of the committee to the fact to which
Mr. Rathbone had alluded. He was not present at
the meeting of that day week, and he was
certainly very much surprised when he took up the
, newspaper containing the report, and saw that after the
reporters had wi;hlrawn a statement of what took place
appeared, and certainly appeared as if it had been given to
the reporters by some one who bad been a party to the
statement. He was extremely glad, on Mr. Rathbone's
account, to have heard what that gentleman had just said ;
and he felt quite sure that Mr. Rathbone had no hand
whatever in the insertion of the report in the newspapers.
With regard to the general question, he thought it very
important that the committee should know how they stood
in the mater. Were they not to consider that it was
something like a breach of privilege, after the committee
rncral'y considered that reporters ought to withdraw, and
that there was nothing further for them to report to the
public, any statement of what subsequently took place,
very probably a garbled one, should be furnished by some
one to a newspaper? (Hear, hear.) He should like very
much to hear some expression of the opinion of the com-
mittee with regard to that question. A week or two ago,
some gentleman was about to make some remarks upon the
dock bills, when it was suggested by the chairman—and
very properly, es he (Mr. Clint) thought—that these
remarks had better be made after the reporters had left. The
advice was followed, and he thought with advantage. But
unless this sort of thing was stopped, discussions, which it
was very important should not go forward to the public
in a credo and imperfect shape, would be reported in an
unofficial manner in the newspapers.
The Chairman : My impression most distinctly is, as has
been very properly stated by Mr. Rathbone, that ant thing
which occurs during the finance proceedings, ought not to
be given by any member of the committee to any
newspaper.. That certainly was nay impression, and I
understood it to be the general feeling of the committee,
that what takes place after the reporters retire, is considered,
as Mr. Rathbone properly expresses it, " private end
conildential."
Mr. Gladstone : I must decidedly put in nay protest
against that.
The Chairman : Sach I always understood to be the
general feeling of the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Gladstone : Ido not intend arguing on the case, for
or against ; but I contend that there is no such under.
standing.
Mr. Bold : I believe I am the oldest member of the
committee, and I think it has always been the under-
standing that, whenever the reporters are asked to
'withdraw, it is with the intention that what takes place in
the room afterwards, shall not go forth to the public, or
else it would be always much better to have the reporters
in the room.
Mr. Gladstone : Much better—certainly.
Mr. Bold : So that if the proceedings are to be reported,
we may have correct reports going forth to the public.
(Hear, hear.) It appears to me most extraordinary that
this report is so correct—is almost literally correct,
Mr. Rathbone : That I deny, entirely; although, per-
h-ps, everybody thinks his own speeches bady reported
(Laughter.)
Mr. Bold : Everybody I spoke to agrees with me in
opinion. In the latter part of the report I disagree
altogether. It states here—" Mr. Rathbone offered some
further observations, and ultimately stated that he would be
satisfied, as the chairman appeared to object to his motion,
if a record were put upon the proceedings to the effect that
the chairman of each sub committee intimated to the
officials of the particular departments that they were to
vote for whatever candidate they thought proper, but were
to take no active part in the general election." Now there
was no agreement thet a record should be made.
Mr. Rathbone : No. I understood just the opposite,
and that is just an instance of the incorrectness. I said
it was not necessary to make a record, if it was understood
that the chairman of each committee would discourage
such proceedings and practices. It was not to be recorded,
but it was understood.
Mr. Bold : I only mention this in order that it may go
forth to the public what we really did. If we are to have
'eye, Le, 0., buablcd. :4 —eta,
better to hive the reporters here always, except during the
parliamentary and finance proceedings.
The Chairman.: There was no record to be pat upon the
proceedings at all.
Mr. Rathbone : But I think it was quite understood
that each committee was to discourage interference on the
p irtof anybody connected with the estate with those in the

employment of the estate; and also such active proceedings
• in the election as would, in the opinion of the committees,
interfere with their duty to this estate.
The Chairman : I did not so understand it.
Mr. Gladstone : Ob, excellent ! Oh, that's capital !
The Chairman : I understood that interference with em-
ployee' was to be distinctly discouraged, and anything in
the shape of canvassing during office hours. Bat I under-
s' nod, also, distinctly, that when a man has finished his duties
here, and goes home, he is not to be prevented from exercis-
ing his political privileges the same as- any member of the
committee, or any one else. It ' would clearly be highly
improper for any officer of the committee to interfere with
electioneering, at any time, so as to exercise any unfair
influence upon anybody in our employment. But I did not
gather from the dtscnssion, that when an officer leaves this
office, and goes home to his private house, he is not to act as
a citizen. (Hear, hear). Of course if he transgresses any
of the bounds of propriety, he ought to be brought before
the Committee and punished.
Mr. Rathbone Then I think I was hardly justified in
being satfetied -with what passed, beeline I understood
tbat the interference of officers, by active canvassing in an
election, and giving to officers, particularly in such a case
as the present, the power of conferring, as it were, a per-
sonal obligation upon 'members of the committee, or the
person to whom they may suppose they are making them-
selves agreeable by so doing, was considered to be very ob
jectionable, and to interfere with the organization and the
good working of the committee. I ventured to state then
—and I think as the thing has come before the public it had
better be put thoroughly forward—my opinion that the
interference which took place at the last election did pro-
dnce disorganization, and did produce some evil in the
working particularly of the Albert dock warehouses ; that
the one principally blamed for it had been repeatedly
punished: since for insubordination—just the sort
of thing one might have expected ; had been irregular
in his habits, as would naturally occur where a man had
been engaged in corrupt practice. at an election; had been

ineubordinati in his conduct, which was just what might
have been expected from a man who thought he had secured
for himself a personal friend in the chairman of the com-
mittee. I wish to guard myself here, again ; Ido not
believe he had secured a friend, to such an extent, that the
chairman would have interfered to prevent the consequences
of his conduct. Ido the chairman full credit as- regards
that. I de not believe that he did secure a friend that
way ; but I do believe that that feeling had a great effect in
pnventing the good working of the docks; and having that
opinion, 1 would again press the matter, that it should be
pat upon record, that the immense infieence of this estate
is not to be wielded as a political weapon. (Hear' hear.)
I am not bringing forward a matter which is at all politi-
cal. lam not, as the chairman rather intimated, bringing
politics into the committee ; and the best proof of it is this,
that we, the party with whom I act, have constantly
objected from the vary first to such proeeedings, and when
they themselves had power, they went so far as to
discourage persons in the employ of the estate
from giving their votes, in order that there
might be no political influence wielded by this committee,
which would maturally have an objectionable effect, and
make the offices of the committee political dikes. This is
a thing upon which I consider that we are all awed.
There is no difference of opinion upon the part of anybody
that such an effect is a very objectionable thing. Therefore,
all we have got to consider, and what we should all unite in
considering, is how a remedy is practically to be carried out
—how ewe to prevent politics from ever interfering in a
large estate of this kind. My impression is, that it would
be very much for the advantage of the estate, very much for
the advantage of the town and the constituency, bath now
and in any ensuing contests, if we were to record our firm
determination, that polities shell not be introduced into the
workings of this estate. (Hear, hear.)
The Cnairman : I may repeat what I said before. This
is the first time in my recollection, and so far as I under-
stand the records of the committee, that a question of
politics was ever introduced into this committee. (Hear,
hear) Let. Mr. Rathbone disguise it is any way he
will-she, perhaps, does not mean it himself, but
very few other persons will suppose that politi-
cal feeling does not mix with the motives which
made him bring forward such a motion at this
time. It is perfectly well known that lam a candidate for
the honour of representing this borough in Parliament. It
is, perfectly clear that if the record Mr. Rathbone proposes
were put upon tee books, it would be understood as a sort
of tip eet against any mare ire the employment of the com-
mittee who chooses to vote for me.
Mr. Rathbone : Certainly not.

The Chairman : It would be so understood. Mr. Rath-
bone has exonerated me from usrng any infleence I had,
and I can conscientiously say I never asked any man for a
vote, of spoke to him on the subject of a vote in the service
of the committee. But Ido contend that to disfranchise
the whole of the labourers in the employment of the come
mittee, or to allow them to vote ; but when a man leaves his
work and goes to his own house at night, to deprive him of
the ordinary privilege of a citizen, I think, is a most tyran-
nical thing to be brought forward by any gentleman, and
particularly by a gentleman professing liberal principles.
I think it is positively outrageous, and I hope anything of
the kind will be discountenanced by this committee.
Mr. Clint thought the business of the committee
was to see that all their employees did their duty. It
they did their duty, he contended that when they
retired to their own homes, they had a full right to exercise
the privileges which society confared upon them, to vote
for whomsoever they liked, and to exercise whatever
influence they possessed in a fair manner. He went with
Mr. Rathbone so far, as to say that they should not take
up the time which belonged to that estate in any way, for
-one candidate or the other; but he would not be a party to
any such tyrannical proceedings as in any degree to inter-
fere with the right of citizenship, and the exercise of the
privilege which these men had as perfect a right to exercise
as any member of the community. (bear.) Ile thought.
Mr. Rathbone had gone rather too far. The record he
wished for would go the extent of disfranchising those men ;
and he (Mr. Clint) would certainly not agree to it.
Mr. Itathbene ; I wish the chairman had followed the
course I took, in not imputing motives. There can be no
doubt, although he put a sort of salvo to it, that he imputed
motives to me. I have done all in my power to clear him
from any imputation. I might have stated, that having
found political conduct had been pursued, inconsistent
with the interests of this estate; having found
that that conduct had been followed in its
natural course by the demoralising of the body
in which it worked, and that it had not been followed by
its natural punishment—l might, I say, have fairly turned
round and stated that this had been done with the consent
and the connivance of others. I have not, however, chosen
to impute to the chairman that of which I would not be
guilty myself, and of which I believe he, as an honourable
man, would not be guilty. Ido think, as he has attempted
to fasten the charge upon me of having introduced politics
into this estate, that politics have laden introduced into this
estate, and have gone on upon previous occasions ; and, as
I stated the other day, which was not repot tad, when there
is a man who.bad been guilty of conduct which ought to
have ensured his dismissal from the employment of this
estate, still retained in its employment, and when it is a
fact th it the secretary of the Constitutional Association was
sent round, by a mmber of this committee to other mem-
bers of the committee, to in tuce them to withheld the
punishment from the man which he deserved, I do think
that, under those circumstances, I should have been justified
in imputing motives. I entirely refused to do so. I believe
the gentleman who sent the secretary of the Constitutional
Association round to the members of the committee, from
what I have seen of him in the committee, to be a thoroughly
honest man, and I believe him to havea been only influenced
by an excess of good .nature towards the man in what he
did. But Ido think it is rather unwarranted on the part of
the chairman, after tte forbearance I have shown, after I
have not only not brought charges, but have distinctly
stated that which I believe, that if such charges were brought
they could not be justified. lam only trying to carry out
the course which the party to which I belong carded out
when they had the power. It is mere consistency. I did
not even propose what I should have proposed if a mem-
ber of my own political pmy sat in that chair—that it
would be for the advantage of a large estate like this—a
trust estate—to have it put upon the same footing as the
government offices. That l believe to ha the sound
and proper footing—that I believe to be the right
thing. But I 'do not consider that the present
time is the time to press such a resolution as
that. But I did consider, and Ido still consider, that this
is the time to put such d record upon the boks which should
prevent men in the employment of the committee from
thinking that by being guilty of acts which I consider
grossly immoral, and which have proved themselves grossly
demoralising, they would find favour in the eyes of officers
of this estate.

The Chairman : On what Mr Rathbone has said, I beg
to 'observe that I did not impute any motive to him, but I
stated what the direct effect of the proposition brought
forward would be. I say still it would have that effeet in
my opinion. I said, moreover, and I believe I was perfectly
correct, that this is the first time such a subject has been
introduced in the committee. Although Mr. Rathbone
said that when his party was in power, they advocated such
a principle, this is the first time such a discus3ion has been
introduced into this room, either by his party or by any
other party. That was all I said, and .I therefore beg to
disclaim what Mr Rathbone has remarked.
Mr. Rathbone : I believe you said there could be no
that political feeling had to do with, the motion I
made.

The Chairman : I said it would appear so.
Mr. Itathbune : All I can say is, t hat it' it had been my
own pod ical party in question, I should have brought it
forward long ago publicty, and should have exposed what
took place.

Toe Chairman : Hive you any motion to bring forward ?
Rathbone : Yes, I move this resolution : " That it
is the instruction of this committee, that no one in its
employ should exercise any influence over the vote of others
in its employ, or should take any such part in the election
as shall, in the opinion of this committee, be inconsistent
with the due performance of his duties."
Mr. Gladstone suggested that it would be more formal
to give notice of the motion.
Mr. Bold : Oh, yes, let notice be given.
Mr. Rathbone accordingly handed in his resolution as a
notice for the next day of meeting.
Mr. Brocklebank said, as a member of the Warehouse
Committee he thought it on:y right to state that no member
of that committee had ever canvassed him, or attempted to
exercise any influence upon him, in regard to keeping Mr.
Inman in the place he now held.
Mr. Rathbone: It was perfectly possible for the member
I hive referrad to, to have contradicted me if I were wrong.
The Chairman : Mr. Brocklebank has contradicted it, so
far as he was concerned.
Mr. Rathbone : Of course, but not as regards the fact I
stated.

Tte subject then dropped.
Oa the recommendation of the sub committee of works,
the tender of Messrs. Jones and Jump, for the new shipping
office in Lightbody atreet,was acc'Tted; and that of Messrs.
Thornicroft and Co., for Stanrdshire plate iron.
The completion of the shed on the north west quay of the
Wellington dock, to be worked as a transit shed, was
reported.
The. Harbour Masters' Committee recommended the
removal of the following cranes, which was agreed to :
that on the east quay of the Victoria dock to the north
quay of the Canning half tide basin ; that on the north side
of the Clarence halt tide basin to the north west quay of
the Salisbury dock. Suggestions by the harbour master
for the management of the gates of the Wapping dock were
also adopted.
A letter from Mr. M'Gowan, secretary to the Health