Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-14 00:00:00

TTAE NORTHERN TIMES, THURSDAY, APRIL 14 1859

gory, lorry, float, or other vehicle, who shall permit tin
same to be driven in or along any street in any part of
the said borough, shall forfeit and pay a sum not exceeding
five pounds for every day on which such offence shall be
committed; provided, that until the first day of June, one
thousand 'eight hundred and fifty-nine, no such penalty
shall be imposed, or shall accrue, or become payable in
'respect of any carriage, cart, waggon, lorry,
float, or other vehicle, which has been duly re-
gistered at the office of the town-clerk before the
pas4ing of this act under any law now in force."
The clause concludes by empowenng the Mac; or to license
anything 'beyond these dimensions for any special purpose.
This act was obtained in 1851, but up till dune 1859, was
allowed 'to wear any out, such as might be 'constructed and
in use at that time which dig not come under the dimensions
snuffled. It appeared that, at the present moment, such
carts had been allowed to remain and to run through the
streets without giving a pretext for the ‘obtaining of thrtt
act. The public feeling seems to be that if this act were
adopted that it would be a tax on the commerce of 'the
port—and that it woulderabarrass the trade and traffic of the
port—and that it would be impolitic, and interfere with

11d be a cause of
from this, he vould

great outl:

to cart-owner

say they might to get back the power they had parted with.
and that they should he always ready to meet the wants of
-the trade and traffic of the town, as from time to time these
wants may be made known. He would take the timber
trade—a branch of trade which he was acquainted -with—
and he would base his aro-um/its on the st
•,3

atements of
;nttion that

received
.5 port ailillla lly, tie uoinu iiuo nc expected
to give them anything like the inconvenience that would
He would just read 111r:Fleming's letter,-which was
as follows :

,ere was, on an a'

,de, 400,a50 tons of timb,

"^ro S. R. GRAVES, ESQ

"My dear Sir,—lt is very difficult to arrive•at anything
like an accurate estimate of the money value of the cartage
of timber and deals in 'Liverpool; but as:urning that all
the timber and deala coming into Liverpool undergoes at
least one cartage for either yarding or shipping off, and
nore than one half a second cartage in shipping
ughly estimated at £30,000.
icity of the carts or timber
of
a fifth or a

ley do at pro

vehicles employed about the docks. Mr. Noakes, if his
evidence was worth anything, and Mr. Pitson, on behalf of
Messrs. Canworth and Ca., said distinctly that if these
conveniencies were afforded at the docks, it would make
the position of matters very different. He heard one of the
members of the committee, who was very much of the chair-
man's way of thinking, state, that if this clause in the act
would not be repealed,' that the traffic on the dock, from the
increased number of carts, would become so great that there
would be no getting past. That was so palpable an exagge-
ration that he asked that gentleman afterwards whether he
still adhered to the statement, and he did not understand
that he was disposed to reiterate that sentence. The
council would bear in mind that to the proportion of the

width of these vehicles was the inducement, the temptation,

and the means of imposing a heavier load than would be
possible under other circumstances in the wear and tear of
horse flesh, and the wear and tear of the pavement in the
vicinity of the docks. There was no place equal
to Liverpool, no town where he knew of such
cruelties to animals so constantly inflicted as
from day to day were inflicted in this town. It is all
very well to say, why do not the riolice force bring these
people before the magistrate. But no police force could
meet the emergency. It was not the exception, but the
rule, that these floats went on the footpath in order to let
pass. The, carting in this town was in an
position. The evidence of the borough
surveyor, who he believed to be an intelligent, practical
man confirmed the principle, that in the vicinity of the
docks—more especially at the Wapping-docks, and some
others which he particularised, where these floats were
constantly carrying these immense loads to the extent of
three and a half tons per wheel instead of two tons, which
he considered the outside weight,—these streets required
reparing four times for once. If they were to place any
weight on the opinion of any man it should be on that of
their own officer. There was only one circumstance which

others

anomaloits

made him feel anxious to carry out his views in opposition
to the chairman of the committee ; that was, that in the
,course of eight or ten years these vehicles would condemn
themselves, and, in the mean time, very much damage would
be done to the pockets of the ratepayers. In Manchester,
some of the old fashioned carriages were gradually
being got rid of. The carriers were now introducing four-
wheeled waggons drawn by two horses abreast, arid were of
a much lighter construction, and carrying au equal load.
The council should bear in mind also, that this law had

compelled several highly respectable individuals, who were
engaged in the trade of -Liverpool, to have new carts con-
structed on the new principle—Messrs. -Woodall and Jones,
who, although they had signed the memorial, had provided
themselves with a cart on this altered principle, and with
wheels constructed on the perpindicular line, and with the
new box axles. They were told by two of the witnesses
that these axles would not answer, and one gentleman said,
in the course of 18 months he had tried the iron knaive to
the new box, and that it was completely wrought out, and
that it would not suit his purpose at all. That was entirely
contrary to the result of experience in every other
place. But, as he stated before, they had not
a really practical scientific opinion from any one of those
who were kind enough to come forward and give their
evidence. Mr. Capstick, and others, wheelwrights, had
constructed carts about 7 feet 5 inches over, which afforded
the convenience to the same extent for stowage as those at
present in use. The notice of the health committee was to
be disregarded because they had got an act of parliament,
which nobody knew anything about---it was the first act of
parliament he ever knew to be got iu that way ; because
they would not be allowed five years more to wear out the
vehicles now in existence, they wanted the law reversed.
He was not in favour of the recommendation to leave a
certain power in the hands of the Mayor. How muchsoever
he respected the gentleman who filled the office of Mayor,
he contended that there should be nothing belonging to
the body corporate left in the hands of one man. It would
be difficult to find out how many waggons and carts there
were in the town ; not for any fault at the Town-hall, but
many people used carts and floats that were not registered
at all, availing themselves of other numbers, and running
the risk of a fine. He did not think it was the province of
the Town-clerk to ascertain the width any vehicle. He
thought that immaculate body, which never did anything
wrong, either as to markets or anything else, should, before
their registrations were granted, have instructed the Town-
clerk to have sent a competent person round to inspect
each vehicle, and see if it was in the required dimensions.
(Hear, hear.) He thought they were in fault there. In
regard to the timber waggons, some of them were stated
to be 8 feet 6 inches wide, and these invariably broke
the law when turning corners, as they were obliged
to go on the opposite side ; and when speaking
to the owners of these, they seemed not to be aware at all
of the fact. Again, a witness was asked as to the width of
a pipe of wine, and a warehouseman of great respectability
could not tell the width. It was stated to be six feet. He
thought the council should maintain their consistency and
their dignity, and not rescind the law which they had ob-
tained for the protection and good of the ratepayers, and at
their expense. The ratepayers were not bound to do what
was almost an impossibility in providing such material as
would stand the wear in those streets at the docks. The
dock-board should provide the cranes along the docks, which
were essential to the trade of the port. And although these
men who gave their evidence were entitled to every
consideration, they were not well educated men,
and did not possess in themselves any scientific in-
formation .on these subjects. Mr. Capstick, who
appeared to be one of the most practical men, and whose
evidence was in direct contradiction to others, had invented

an axle which had been proved to work well.' It would be
a great injustice to those who had got their vehicles altered,
to meet the law, if it was now rescinded. They should
deal out even-handed justice to all parties, and he did not see
that there had been any case proved, either before them or
before the committee, that should make them alter their
former, decision. It should be proved, first by practice, that
it was disadvantageous, before they were called upon to act
as advised by the chairman of the committee. And he
must protest against the funds of the corporation being

applied to that which seemed to be both Unnecessary and
uncalled for. If there were parties out of doors anxious
to get the law changed, let them get it changed if they
could, but the council had obtained a law, at great expense,
which they believed to be for the good of the community,
and unless there was some practical abuse shown by the
result of experience, in his opinion they ought not to take
any steps whatever to have the law changed.
Mr. Alderman Bennett quite agreed with Mr. Gladstone,
that it was right and justifiable in such a case as that to
upset the proceedings of committees carried by the casting
vote of the chairman, and he was glad to hear that senti-

meat enunciated by Mr. Gladstone at that particular time.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He agreed in general with
Mr. Gladstone's common-sense speech. He contended that
the commerce of the port was restricted in no way more
than by disputes and stoppages in the narrow streets, and
he moved, therefore, a direct negative to the proposition of
Mr. Graves.
Mr. Kitchen contended that, by reducing the loads of
goods--say loads of cotton, from twenty to fourteen or sixteen
bales the council would inevitably create a necessity for
supplying • the deficient amount by increased cartage. He
declared that the evidence which the committee had procured
was the best which could have been had, and asked where
the council could obtain greater experience in such subjects
than from the Chamber of Commerce, the American Cham-
ber of Commerce, the Warehouse Association, the
Bridgewater Trustees, and the other great bodies, of which
some members had given evidence before the committee.

He urged that in most of the narrow streets at present,
where one cart could now pass, the proposed reduction
would not enable two carts to pass, while in the wider
streets the reduction was not required to enable the two to
pass. They would therefore, he maintained, gain nothing
in either instance by the change which was proposed. The
slightest increase in charges would have the tendency to
send some portion of their traffic to other ports, and he
therefore strongly supported the report of the committee.

Mr. Alderman Parker also supported the report

Mr. Ryley denied that the Cotton BrokerS' Association
were in favour of this report. With the exception of six
or seven, the members of that body did not wait to hear

Mr. Noakes. These six or seven examined him for about
ten minutes, and then passed the resolution which had
been referred to. When he (Mr. Ryley) brought the
subject before the next meeting of the body it was unknown
to any but those five or six, and the rest were astonished at
such a thing, it never having been discussed. lie protested
against it, and. from that day it never was alluded to, one
way or the other. From his own experience, backed and
corroborated by every cart-owner of whom he asked the
question, floats were not the carriages they would load
cotton on, but the lorry was in all respects a better convey-
ance for such goods.

Mr. Alderman Dover contended that, when the council
received a memorial from an association, they were bound
to believe that it represented the feelings of that association.
He was one of those who took a part in promoting the
section of the act of parliament ; but if he did wrong—and
he could not put his judgment against that of 300 members
of the first firms in Liverpool, and 200 practical men, such
as cart-owners, wheelwrights, &c.—he felt that he was

bound to state publicly that his views had been mistaken.
(Bear, hear.). He thought Mr. Gladstone had, probably,
without intending it, spoken very disparagingly of Mr.
Hoax.

Several members : Mr. Noakes. (Laughter.)

Mr. Dover : Well, I mean Mr. NOakes-.
Mr. Gladstone : No, I should rather you left the name as
you first gave it, Mr. Hoax. (Great laughter.)
Mr. Dove" contended that Mr. Noakes was a very well
informed and intelligent person, and that his evidence was
very important upon that subject. He reminded the conn-
cil that other towns had no such restrictions as it was
proposed'to impose in Liverpool, and urgocl that if the

conncil sought any power, it should bo merely a permissive
power.
Mr. Earle was in favour of repealing the act, because he
did not go the length of the power sought there, but, at the
same time, he agreed with a great deal which had been said
by Mr. Gladstone, and he should be sorry if the council had
not the power to make some regulations.
Mr. Hodson thought there was something involved in
the question more than the mere cheapening of commerce,
important as that object might be. He alluded to the
scenes of overcrowding and danger which took place every
day along the docks, and stated that he had been informed
by veterinary surgeons, that a great amount of the disease
caused to horses in Liverpool came from the enormous loads
which were laid upon them.

Mr. Stitt denied that any argument, beyond the question
of a little saving of the pavement of the town, had been
given in favour of the proposed alteration of the law.
He therefore supported the report of the committee.
Mr. Holden supported the report.

Mr. Clint urged that the members who opposed to the
report were not those who advocated a change. They
supported the settlement of the question which had been
made in 1854. The change was made five years ago,
and deliberately agreed upon, and it was for those who
wished to change that settlement, to assign some valid
reasons for the change. No such reasons had been given,
and he therefore opposed the report.
Mr. Picton said, restrictions upon commerce were at all
times undesirable in themselves, unless justified by especial
circumstances. The embarrassment of the traffic in
narrow streets, and the wear and tear of pavement, had
been the only circumstances assigned in this instance. He
thought the first reason had been very well disposed of by
Mr. Kitchen, and, as to the second, he reminded the council
that the paving rate in some of the suburban districts, where
no such traffic existed, such as Wavertree, West Derby,
parts of Toxteth Park, &c., was much higher than
in Liverpool. He did not mean to speak
lightly of the humane considerations which had
been suggested in support of the restrictions, but
he thought, if they wanted an act of parliament on the
ground of humanity, they ought to go plainly and definitely
for an act upon that ground. He denied that the Corpora-
tion required to go to Hull, to Bristol, or to any other place
to be taught their business, and contended that their teams
of horses, in especial, were the admiration of every stranger
who came to Liverpool. He declared that he frequently saw
those horses in the evening, when their harness was taken
off. as brisk as young lambs (laughter).
Mr. Aikin supported the report, and eontended that it
would be a reflection upon their local conduct of business to
have such restrictions imposed upon them. . .

Mr. Sheil complained of the-great exaggeraiion which
had been employed in describing the effects wilich would
result from the passing of the act. He stated that lorries
would not be affected by it at all, and not even all fiats.
He declared that the change would have no damaging effect
whatever upon the commerce of the town.
Mr. Ridley urged that. in those days of free trade, there
should be free trade in carts as well as everything else.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Graves briefly replied. He denied that it was as
insignificant a subject as Mr. Sheil had represented, and
mentioned that the timber trade, which involved nearly
half a million of tons, was not conducted' by a single flat.
That, therefore, he contended, showed that the proposed
change was recognised by the timber trade as affecting
lorries.

The council finally divided, when there appeared—
For : The Mayor; Aldermen Dover and Parker ; Coun-
cillors Stitt, Crosthwaite, Woodruff, Holden, Barton Little-
dale, Graves, Ridley, Job, Earle, Pieton, Kitchen, Aikin,
Farnworth, and Anthony-18.

Against : Aldermen Bennett and Houghton ; Councillors
Anderson, Sheil, Corbally, Haydoek, R.yley, Avison, Shand,
Hutchison, Gladstone, Jeffery, Hodson, Clint, Beckwith,
and Cropper-16.

The report of the committee was therefore carried.
Mr. Graves moved that the report be referred to the
health committee, to carry out the recommendations of the
report.
Mr Sheil moved, as an amendment, that the further
consideration of the subject be postponed till the next
council.

Some discussion took place as to what should be done
with the report. It was at length put to the vote, when
the amendment was lost by 16 to 11.

It was finally agreed that any farther proceedings in the
matter be left in the bands of the town-clerk.

An application from Mr. William Johnston, district
building surveyor, for an increase to his salary, was read,
and referred to the finance committee.

A letter was read from Mr. Alfred Reynolds, stating that
he would give free admission to the Freemasons' Hall to
any of the schools of the corporation. It was referred to
the education committee.
This concluded the business.

LIVERPOOL PRODUCE MARKET.—Arnm 13

Colonial, &c : There is a steady market for &gar, and
the transactions to-day comprise 550 bags Cossipore, at
47s 6d ; 2.750 bags Bahia, at 22s 9d for low brown, ex store,
kit chiefly at 24s 6d for good, ex quay ; also 800, bags
Pernams, at 245, and 1,600 bags Ceara, at 23s 9d per cwt.,
also ex quay. Rice continues in good request, but the
firmness of holders prevents business. Nothing has taken
place in Dyewoods. Of Ashes, small sales of Pearls, at
31s 6d. 10 tons Nitrate of Soda taken, at 16s per cwt. for
fine quality. 50 tons Brimstone are reported at 15s to £8
per ton. 30 bales Persian Berries, at 45s to 46s 6cl; 75
bags Cutch, at 38s ; 500 bales Gambier, at 17s 3d to 17s 6d
for sound, and 16s 9d to 17s for heated ; 75 chests Shell-
Lac, chiefly orange, at 87s 6d to 90s; 150 bags ordinary
Bombay Sallower, at lis to 15s ; 10 cases Borax, at 40s ;
380 bags Myrabolams, at 8s to 8s 3d; and 8 hogsheads
Caster Oil, at 37s per cwt. Oils, 4.c.: Palm, at £44 10s ;
nothing to notice in Olive. Tallow, 100 casks South
American sold at 51s to 52s 6d for bright yellow. Of
Rosin, 50 barrels at 4s 6d, and 50 barrels Spirits of Tur-
pentine at 42s per cwt. In Seeds we have to notice 2,700
bags Calcutta Rapeseed, at 44s per quarter.