The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-03-23 00:00:00

Lilure, but that being the originator or the party that
brought in the bill to deprive Liverpool of the dues, I
clnuot conceive how Mr. ',awe can be an honest man.
(Cht-ers)

A Voice : It was Cardwell. (Cheers.)
'Mr. HorFfall : But., Gentlemen, I may say this,
and I believe I may say it truly; that there is
honor and .honesty sufficient in the House of
Commons to reject any such bra when again introduced,
or if introduced--I hope' and trust (and I will test it if I
have the honour of being your representative), and, if a
committee of the house should make a report upon the
conservancy bill in accordance with the principles of the
local dues bill, it will be again rejected by a majority of the
house—l, for one, shall be prepared to move its rejection.
(Cheers.) More than that, I will take the sense of the
!louse of Commons upon the subject, and we shall see at
least who, in my opinion, are honest men, and who are not.
(Cheese.) Now, gentlemen, there are many other questions
upon which you, in common with myself, feel great interest.
I have been reminded that at the Amphitheatre there were
one or two points of importance on which I did not touch.
I have been reminded by a paper put into my hand, not in
the most courteous terms, that I have said nothing on the
subject of Maynooth . My not having done so arose merely
from a desire not to occupy the time of the meeting
unnecessarily long. I thought that my opinions were very
well known. (Hear, hear.) I have , had frequent
opportunities of expressing them ; and I am always
unwilling, unless some object is to be gained,
to introduce a subject which : naturally produces
some degree Of irritation. (Hear, hear.) I assure you that
my opiniena'rernain as always' were. (Cheers.) I
should be rejoiced if any plan'could be-devised which would
relieve the country from the payment of a grant to which it
consoler tiously objects: (Hear, hear.) It genthruen are
told that they are enemies of Ireland because they:xefuse to
support the grant to Maymioth, I give it my unqualified
denial. (Cheers.) I hesitate not to say—and I. think I
may challenge the support of any Irish member of the
House of Commons—that no member Of that house is more
prepared to aid awe motion having for its object the good of
Ireland. (Hear, beer, and, cheers) I have always been
prepared to do so ; end, as I said to an honourable Roman
Catholic tnetrber the other dvy, I wish some plan could be
devised by which to get rid of the grant, without depriving
Ireland of the fund, in a way which would satisfy the Con-
science of the English people, who feel, and Very properly
feel, a strong objection to pay for teaching what they believe
to be error. The plan I suggested was this: if any plan
could be devised which would be a mere matter of pounds,
shillings, and pence, I would be prepared to vote for
£36;000, or £lOO,OOO, if instead of being appro...
priwed to teach what I believe to be error, it
were appropriated for the establishment of industrial
or other schools in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I wish to
satisfy all that it is not with any niggardly hand we wish
to deprive Ireland of that grant. (Hean hear) ldo not
wonder at Reined Catholics supporting it. They support
it because they believe it is given in favour of what is right;
and if I were a Roman Catholic I should support it too;
but being a Protestant I believe it to be wrong, and therefore
If. el a strong objection to teashing anything which I believe
to be error. Now, there is another questien iu which the
inhabitants of E lge Hill, West Derby, and this ward, feel
some degree of interest, unless your views are very much
changed singe my excellent friend, the Bishop of Sydney
left you—that is, the question of education. (Rear, hear.)
I hove had many opportunities of explaining my views
upon this subject, and I did not dwell upon it at the Amphi-
theatre in the way some of my friends wished me to do.
My opinions remain as they'were. My opinion is that
secular education is not, as it has been represented that I
said, a national sin; but it is; as I have stated this evening
at another place, beginning at the wrong end. (Hear,
hear.) If you begin with secular education to the infant
mind,
,instead of taking the higher standard, and
beginning as we ure taught to begin, with the
knowledge that." the fear of the Lord is the begiening, of
wisdom," I cannot approve of such a system. I approve
of no system of national education which does not begin by
inculcating the prin&ples of the Bib's in the youthful mind.
(Hear, hear.) lam no oppo'hent of secular education, and.
I need not be reminded by its supporters of its importance;
but I think this—that when we are inculcating secular
education only, we are just digging in the cooper or the
leaden mine, leaving the golden ore buried in the dust.
(Cheers.) Well, gentlemen, there are other questions upon
which I might indulge myself in speaking, but r must
recollect that my excellent friend here has also to address
you. If there are any questions which any friends in the
room wish to ask me, I shall be most happy to answer
b,analsl teiT2alPlll3r Un 4;88 acv ut the.. fze—to—s4a7; ..;;;;;,
I can only assure you that, if it should be your willsand
your pleasure again to place me in the distinguished
position of your representative, it shall be my earnest
endeavour to discharge the duties to the best of my humble
ability, with the sincere desire to promote, as I ever have
done, or endeavoured to do, the interests of this my native
town, and the common 'welfare of the country. (Loud
cheers, amid which the honourable member resumed his
seat.)

-1 An Elector asked if Mr. Horsfall was prepares to vote
for government inspection of nunneries ?
Mr. Horsfall : Certainly. (Cheers.) Perhaps I may
say to my friend who asked the question, that it is only a
few deys ago I took the liberty of bringing a case with
re,estrd to a nunnery under the notice of Sir George Grey,
It was reported to me, upon very good authority, that a
nun had eseeped front a :nunnery in an adj scent county
that she had been overtaken and carried back to the nun-
:nery, which bad created a great sensation in the neigh-
bourhood, and a great desire was expressed that I should
bring the case under the notice of Sir George Grey. I did
so, and Sir George Grey gaie me the answer which I
expected he would give—that in the present state of the
law he had no power to interfere. (Hisses) That is my
answer to the question of my honourable friend. (Cheers.)
A Voice: Will you vote against the £35,000 a year for
Presbyterians of the north, and I *ill vote for you ?
To this question Mr. Horafall gave no answer.
Mr. Charles Turner then presented himself, and was
received with several rounds of cheering, • '
A Voice : Three cheers for 1852. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. Turner said e Let me first Acknowledge; gentlemen,
most gratefully, the cordial reception which you have been
good enough to give me. It is now five years since I first
appeared before you in a similar capacity to-that in which
I appear at present. It is five years since I first appeared
in West Derby ward as a candidate for the honour of
representing the borough of Liverpool; and, gentlemen,
you were theh pleased to answer the appeal which I made
to yen by contributing, as West Derby ward always does
contribute, a very large number of Conservative electors to
place the Conservative candidate at the head of the poll.
(Cheers.) But, gentlemen, that is only what, as a Conser.
vative, I had always been prepared to expect from the
Wert Derby ward. I observe that it was stated at a meeting
of our opponents the other night, that if they gained West
Dn-by ward, they should gain the election. (Laughter.)
Well, gentlemen, if their gaining their election depends
upon their gaining West Derby ward, I think their chance
is a very, very small one. (Cheers and laughter.) But it
has been stated that there are no principles involved in this
election. All at once our opponents have found out that
it is undesirable to have any contest. They have found
out that it is desirable the representation of the borough
should be half • Whig and half Conservative. (Flear, and
laughter.) They have found out very great merits in our
friend, Mr. Horsfall—emerits which you and I would be the
very first' to acknowledge—bufmerits, the ecknowledgment
of whioh, coming from the party front which it does, we
.must cm:Udder dicteted by anything hut a very sincere
feeling. (Hear, hear.) This opbsion of theirs arises from
the fact that they know full well that they have.no chance of
carrying two members for this borough. '
Mr. Bold : Not one. (Cheers).
Mr. Turner : A friend of mine here sass they have no
chance of carrying ene. I do not think they have. (sear,
hear, and cheers.) But, gentlemen', they think iris their
best chance to propose to the Conservatives of, this borough
to divide the repreeentation with them. They go upon
this principle ; and, perhaps, they are not to blamed,
having no chance whatever if they go to a contest. " Per-
haps we hid better see whether we cannot divide—if we
thought we had any chance, we would go for the whole."
That is the principle upon which they act. I put it to one
of themselves the other day, and he acknowledged that it
was the principle up )n which they acted. (Hear, hear.)
Bat I was going to- say that it has been urged that
there are no princleles involved in this election. Well,
supposing that there are no principle: involved in the
election—suppose 'I grant that for a moment—l think
that, under those circumstances, I have a greater claim
upon the burgesses and electors of Liverpool than Mr.
Ewart. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I was opposed to Mr.
-Ewart in 1852, and. we fought that election in a- very
friendly spirit as regards the candidates. (Hear, hear.)
What was the decision of the burgesses and electors of
Liverpool ? They returned me by a m ,jerity of 1,783 over
Mr. Ewart. (Cheers.) Under these cis cumetances why
was I dispossessed of the seat in which you were pleased to
place me, and of the honour you were pleased to confer
upon me, by Mr. Ewart's supporters ? (Hear, hear.)
If there are no principles involved, surely. I, as having
been member before ,Mr. Ewart, have the first claim.
(Cheers.)
A Voice : You shall be member again. (Lend cheers)
Mr. Turner.: But, gentlemen, are there ho Principles
involved in this electien ? I would ask you to read the
addreeees of Mr. 11. rsrall and myself. I would ask you to
read.the addresses-and the speechee, of Mr'.eksvart and of
his supporters, and then say, when you have read those
documents, whether there are no prieciples involved in this
election, whether everything the Conservatives have ever
fought for is not involved in this contest. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Let us see what they are. One gentleman says that -

religion has nothing to with politics. Is not the exercise of
our elective franchise one of those things in which we ought
to endeavour toe
ctmost conscientiously for the good of our
country. (firer, and cheers.) If religion is not to regulate
this most importantduty—one of the most important duties
which belongs to every' citizen —I would ask what part of
our conduct religion is t regulate? (Hear, hear) I hope,
therefore, when a, gentleman comes and *tells us what we
were told by a speaker at one of the Whig meetings the
other day, that religion had nothing to do with politics,
that, at all events, to such a doctrine no Conservative will
give his assent. (Cheers.) The principles involved in this
election T m ay state shortly are, first of all, education con-
nected with religion ; and next—perhaps the principle most
involved—the inviolability of the Established' Church.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not meanowlsen- I use that expres,ions
that I shall not be prepar.el to advoiev,e any alteration in
the Constitution of that church which may reeder it more
efficient for the discharge of the important
,duties it has to
perform ; but when I speak of the inviolability of the
Es.ablished Church, speak of the inviolability of the
national religion. (Cheers.) And, gentlemen, I speak
also of the inviolability of the Established Church in
Ireland. (Hear, hear, and lend cheers.) 'Besides
these questions there is the observance of the Sab-
bath—(lourd cheers) —and the opPoslion to the est'ablish-
ment of Mayttooth. (Renewed cheers.) These are the
principal points of our religious differences. Then,. if yet
go to the political ones, you will remember that you heard
something of my opponent stating that he was ia favour of
vote by bellot. Now, gentlemen, that is a view to which
lam decidedly opposed. (Cheers.) . Ide not think vote
-by ballot it; a system- which could suit an E eglishmee.
(Hear. hear.) It is a system of hypocrisy. (Hear, hear.)
P'sry man who gives his vote at an election must, have
mode it appear, either by wend of meuth or the demeanour
he indulged in, ,chat way he intended to vote. It is im-
possible for any of us to live among his fellow-citizens,
.discussing politics, as we always do freely with our neigh-
bours, without indicating his intention with regard to
occasions of this kind. Well, then, gentlemen,• what is the
ballot to do ? Is it to enable us to to k one way and row
the other—(cheers) —to profess one thing publicly and to
act another privately? (Cheers ) , Gantlemee, that. is a
measure to which I are decidedly opposed. Ido not know
whether the supporters of my honourable friend do not go
so far as to advocaat,: something like, universal suffrage. if
that is the case; rear,not at ell agree to such a preposition.
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, gentlemen, I think, you wilt
now agree with me' that there are very important
principles, involved in this election. (Hear, hear.) It.
is objected to me that if , you send me to parliament I shall
go there as; a pledged supiporter of my Lord Derby; and an
opponent of my Lord Palmerston. I think my Lord Derby
is a very honourable nobleman, whom we all esteem.
(Laud cheers.) 7 But, gentlemen, if yourexprut me to go to
Parliament pledged to support my Lord 'Darby, and pledged
to oppose my Lord Palmerston, I must decline to do so.
(Cheers ) I shall go there free and end. pendent. (Loud
cheers.) I shsll'eo there-tto represent this great borough,
and to advocate- those measures which I think will do good
to the town and trade of Liverpool, and do good to this
great empire, (Renewed cheers.) I shall never give a'
factious vote there- for Lord Palmerston, Lord Derby, or
any other government. (Cheers ) That is my answer to
that objection. As regards the question with reference to
China, upon which the disselution of p &lament took niece,
my opinion, I think, is tolerably well known: If I had
been in the FI :.use of Comrnens, I c gtisinly should belie
voted with my.friend Mr. Horsfall on that occasion. (Hear,
hear.) My friend on my left remindi me that having the
honour of being the chairman of the East India aml China
Association, and having had an opportunity of acquir-
ing a great *al of inthrmetion, upon. China, from
gentlemen' resident- a long time in that country,
as well as from having myself had for some time
considerable commercial_ _intercourse with it, my
,rinions upon the subject were formed, and ex-
pressed a considerable' time -ago, and, therefore, were
not to be regarded as opinions formed after the event.
(Hear, hear.) It is slid that I declined to sign an
address to Lord Palmerston, which was prepared in the.
Exchange Newsroom. Well, gentlemen, I did so because
that. address went much farther than expressing approval
of - Lord Pahnerston's policy with regard to the war in
China. That address went to express an unqualified
adherence to Lord Palmerston's policy, both at h ime and
abroad. (Hear, hear.) My friend, Mr. Horsfall, has
alluded to one or two questions which made it quite
Impossible for me, even if these -had been the only Ties-
tions, to ha-re signed that address. The most prominent
of them is the bill, which was brought before Parliament
oa SIA lig
to say of robbing, but I don't like to use harsh words—
of depriving the people of Liverpool of property to which
they are as well entitled as any gen, leman is to his landed
estate. (Cheers) I say that such a property is the
Town Does. (Hear, hear.) A second bill, as has been
already well observed, is the Mersey Consery tncy Bill,
wlich was brought befoi e Parliament not by mr. Lowe, be-
cause I fancy Lord Palmerston's Government had got quite
enough of the local dues bill of the previous year, and,
therefore, Mr. Loa wanted-10 try the question withsut
committing the government to •the disserace'ef a failure.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore the Manchester people has)
brought forward the Mersey Conservancy Bill, which,
would not only have the effect of depriving the people of
Liverpool of their town dues but also would deprive
them of the management of that magnificent estate, the
dock esta'e of Liverpool, (Cheers) For these reasons,
if there were no others, it was impossible far ins to g:ve an '
unqualified adherence to the government of Lord
Palmerston. (clear, hear ) At the same time, I am,
prepared to say, that I shall not give a factious. vote
against his or any government. (Hear, _hear.) In proof
of this "I may-say,: that: when Lord Palmerston visited
Liverpool, I had great pleasure in moving in the council
of the borough an address to him, stating the pleasure
we had in seeing him in the town of Liverpool, and that
we were of opinion the gratitude of the country was due
to him for the manner iet which he took upon himself
the government of the country at alime of difficulty, and
for the way the war was carried on under his adminis-
tration. (Hear, hear, and cheers) Nw, gentlemen,
I would a ain briefly call to your recollection, and espe-
cially to the recollection of the freemen of Liverpool. the
manner in which we were 'all treated in the year 1852.
(Hear, hear) I would call to your recollection the
persevering manner hi which the' Whigs at that day
attempted to disfranchise, the freemen of Liverpool,
and I trust that if there are any freemen in Liverpool,
they will, at the ensuing election, show thei, sense of
the manner in which they have been treated. (Hear,
hsar, and cheers.) I hope they will not support any gentle-
man, however respectable he may be, who is brought
forward by a party who do everything in their power to
deprive the freemen of Liverpool of the rights which
have been transmitted to them by their fathers, (cheers),
and confirmed to them by -Act of Parliament. (Renewed
cheers ) Gentlemen, if it should be your pleesure to
seed me to the House of Commons—

A Voice : That's settled. (Cheers,)
. Another Voice :At the head of the poll. (Cheers.)
Mr. Turner : I have no wish to be at the head of the
poll. I should like Mr. Horsfall to be at the head
of the poll, hut I should like to lie second. (Leiughter
and cheers.)
A Voice : Second will do very well. (:'beers.)
Mr. Turner : Oh, yes, second will do very well.
(Laughter) If, gentlemen, you send me to the House
of Commons second to Mr. tforsfall, Isbell do everything
I can to support your interes•s, and to bend''' this
great community.. Mr Turner then resumed his
seat amid long sustainA and en linsias!ie Cheering,
• An Elector : Are yea in favour of bentralisalon ?
Mr. -Horsfall,replied That he had always opposed all
centralisation, because he thought that local bodies should
have the right of self government.
Mr. Turner said he fully agreed in the senr;ments of
Mr. Horsfall on the subject of centralisation, an], if.
returned to parliament, should strenuously oppose any
scheme for taking the local management of the affeirs of
the town • out of the hands of the people.
Mr. Clint then came forward to move the, first resolution,
and on doing so Said : Often as I have appeared before the
electors of West Derby ward, and taken a more or less pro-
minent part in the various-questienspf a 'municipal or
general.kind which Gore time to time have occupied your
attention, lean sincerely say that i never felt a moreanxieol
desire:to d,-justice to the cause I hare-heen advocating. than
I feel on the present occasion. (Cheers.) I feel it indeed
a great privilege to be here, and to advocate Ili,: cloi•es of
Messrs. llorsfall and Turner to represent you in the Com-
mons House of ,Parliament. (Cheers.) The reseletion I
have to prepeSe for your acceptaece is the following .
" That thealemks of this meeting be -cordially giVen to T,
B. Horsfall,-Esq., for his arduous labours whilst the represen-
tative of this borough in Parliament, and it is the opinion of
this meeting, that.the conduct of Mr. Horsfall, as such ,repre-
sentative, entitles him to the renewed confidence of the
electors and burgesses, and that the well-known commercial
knowledge and practical experience of ' Mr. Turner,
also entitles him to its confidence ; and this meeting, deem*.
ing them fit and 'proper candidate's, pledges itself to use
its utmost exertions to secure thiir triumphant return."
Before commenting on this reaolution. I will make some
remarks- on the much vexed China qiiestion. I must
confesS I am rather a Cobilenite op „this
.qnestion, and that
if I had been in the'lloasenf,COmmatis, I should probably
have given my vote with the majoijty against the•govern-
ment, tor, I, efrtaiiZly,contiver t the Procee'lings.'d Sfil
John Bovrting were unwarrantable, Why dtdi4 Void
Palmerston disarm opnositioa by declaring his intention of
sending oat a commissioner? Because he had no intention
of doing so until the House of Commons came to that
adverse vote. It has been stated by a member to his con-
stituents that he attended a meeting of Lord Palmerston's
supporters at his own house, at which he asked his lordship