Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-06-23 00:00:00

TIIK MONSTER GUN

Lord BaysNswoarnwished to know why the large gun
manufactured for service in the Crimea was not to be sent
to China ; and also if it were true that six guns had been
recently imported from America, which could have been
cast in foundaries in this country.
Lord PANMITRIC said it would be an absurdity to send the
gun referred to to China, as it would entail a large
expense to do so. With regard to the other question, the
guns were made upon a plan inverted by an American
gentleman, for loading at the breach, and at his wish were
manufactured in America.
The Earl of ALBERMARLE moved for a memorial from a
Mr Dixion, of Darrow, Queen's County, to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, complaining of the conduct of
David Frank, a stipendiary magistrate, for illegally im-
prisoning the memorialist, and other acts contrary to law,
in connection with a charge axainit the memorialist on a
charge of conspiring to murder. Also, a copy of memorials
from the same person to the Commissioners of the Treasury.
praying that the police tax of £174 13s 9d, levied upon
his property under the crime and outrage act in conse-
quence of the charge, night be refunded.
Lord ST. GERMAINS spoke highly of the magistrate
against whom the complaint was made ; and, with regard
to the payment under the crime and outrage act, stated
that the Lord Lieutenant and magistrate of the county
having come to their decision after mature consideration,
the government had no power to refund the sum.
The papers were granted.
THE STAMM L `,IIT COMMISSION. _ _ -

The Lowe 61ANCE1:1,071 drew attention to the third
report of the statute Law Commi,sion, and explained the
nature of the duties of the commissioners, and the difficul-
ties with which they h,d to contend. He stated that
statutes of a kindred nature had been gr(,uped, and now
sixty-five statutes had been reduced to the form
most available, in order that they might be presented to
Parliament. Particular attention had been paid to the
criminal statutes and the result was, 'that eight Criminal
Bills had been prepared, the first reading of which he
begged to move.
It was hoped that the whole of the Statutes might be
reduced to forty or fifty volumes and he thought it would
be of great advantage to t',e profession and the public if
they could be reduced to eight or ten.
Lords BROUGHAM and CAMPELL approved of the labours
of the commissioners so far as they had gone.

The Bills were then read a first time.
Lord ABINOER moved for a return of Property ; Lands,
Mortgages, &c., relating to Roman Catholics' Charities.
specifying the uses to which they were applicable. The
motion was withdrawn after a brief discussion.
On the motion for going into committee on the Ministers
Money (Treland) Bill,
Lord CLANCUITY moved that the bill be committed that
day six months, stating that, on the second reading, of the
Peers present there was a majority of six against the bill.
11,,e Earl of DERBY thought it would be inexpedient to
press the opposition to going into committee.
Lord CL INCARTY withdrew his motion, but gave notice
that on the third reading he should move the postponement
of that stage for six months.
The Earl of WICKLOW then moved that the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners be heard by counsel, at the bar, against the
measure.

Mr. BURKE then addressed the committee on behalf of th e
Pilot Commissioners of Liverpool. He thought he should
be enabled to satisfy the Committee that the bill was
unprecedented in its character, unjust as regarded the
Pilot Commissioners,and inexpedient as regarded the public•
If he succeeded in proving these facts, he thought there
would not remain on the minds of the committee a doubt
that the bill ought to be rejected, so far as the Pilot Com-
missioners were concerned. What was the object of the bill?
It was a measure promoted by an alien company from Liver-
pool, the Great Western Railway Company, to abrogate,
among other things, the powers already vested in his
clients. They were not shipowners, but yet that company,
allying themselves with a section of her Majesty's govern-
mena were desirous of having a piece of land on the south
reserve at Birkenhead, and, by the aid of the Board of
Trade, were thus endeavouring to screw a bargain out of
Liverpool, at the expense of that town. The learned
counsel then drew attention to the practice of parliament
in the passage of private andpublic bills, pointing out that
in the former case the passage of the bill was virtually
entrusted to a committee of five members, while
the whole house passed a public bill, and
he thought the Mersey Conservancy Bill was
unprecedented in its character, and that it would lead
to what would be a great public calamity. He challenged
any person to show that a single shred of evidence had
been adduced inculpating the Pilot Commissioners. It
had been said—nay, it was even set out in the preamble—
" And, whereas, by an act passed in the sth year of the
reign of his late Majesty King George the IV., chap. 73,
the appointment and superintendence of pilots for the port
of Liverpool is vested in a committee, hereinafter called
the Liverpool Pilotage Committee, of whom the Corpora-
tion of Liverpool form the greatest part." When that point
was questioned, the promoters of the bill admitted that
the assertion was contrary to the facts and inconsistent
with the truth. It was to be much regretted that the
Great Western Railway Company should have promoted
such a bill upon the mere faith of the accuracy of a report
presented by a section of the government, By the 26th
clause of the bill, it was proposed to transfer the powers
of the Pilotage Commissioners to a board of 21 members,
eighteen of whom were to be elected by ratepayers,
while the remaining three were to be the nominees
of the Conservancy Commissioners. But he con-
tended that the promoters of the bill ha I not yet shown
that the present system Lad worked ill, and it would be
manifestly unjust, in such a case, to take away the powers
of the Commissioners, and transfer them to another body.
As to the question of expediency, he begged the corn •
mitiee to bear in mind that the great commercial port of
IRISH CONSTABTIL tRY. Liverpool had risen to its present gigantic greatness under
Mr. H. ITEtteeate, replying to Sir E. Hayes, stated that the constitution by which it was now governed; and he
it was intended to introduce a bill for the re-allocation of also entreated the committee not to shut their eyes to the
the Irish constabulary during the present session.
fact, that the unprecedented degree of prosperity that had
THE OATHS BILL.
On the consideration of the Oaths Bill as amended, attended the operations of Liverpool, was o wing tothe
Mr. S. FITZGERALD moved to insert a clause ex. management to which the trading interests of that port had
eluding Jews from holding the offices of Lord High been intrusted. The act under which the Pilot Commis-
Chancellor, Lord Keeper, or Lord Commissioner of the
sinners were elected set forth that the Commission should
Great Seal of Great Britain or Ireland, Lord Lieutenant,
consist of one hundred and forty-five persons, com-
or Deputy, or other Governor of Ireland ; High Commis-
sioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, prising the Mayor and Council, merchants and retired
or any office in the Ecclesiastical Courts in England or ship captains, from whom a Committee was to be
Ireland, or courts if appe tl, or the Commissary Courts of appointed to conduct the pilotage business- It would be
Scotland. preposterous to appoint as commissioners persons who
Lord PALMERSTON had not intended to introduce
were non-resident, and it would also be unjust to deprive
provisions in the measure to this effect, because
the contingencies provided against were most unlikely to the pilots of a sum amounting he believed to £B,OOO, which
happen, but if the insertion of the clause would facilitate they received from the government under reciprocity
the passage of the measure, he would not object to its treaties. The learned counsel then called attention to the
introduction.
Sir F. Tunseeen did not understand the unanimity of act under which the present commissioners were appointed,
the House, and would, in the event of a division, oppose pointing out that under its provisions the pilots were re-
in any way the admission of Jews to parliament quired to maintain the widows and orphans of persons
Sir. G. GREY suggested the omission of the Commissary belonging to their own body, that their boats were very
Court of Edinburgh, frem the proposition as it had ceased expensive;that they
themselves were required to pur-
to exist. The words acre struck out, and the clause as
chase the boats, and that upon the decease of the owner his
amended was added to the bill, as were also clauses pre-
venting Jews from presenting to benefices in right of offices, share went to the widow and children. He reminded the
or of advising in the appointment to offices in the Estab- committee that the labours of the pilots were of a most ar-
I ished Church. daous e'naeacter, and that the average life of the men was
The bill as amended was then agreed to. only thirty nine and a-half years. In conclusion, he assured
SUPPLIES VOTED.
The House then went into Committee of Supply. the committee that the result of the passage
The following votes were agreed to ; —xioiasai for neTe of the bill now before them, would be t
Houses of Parliament; £443 for Portpatrick Harbour ;
render the shipping interests of the port sub -
£77,557
£77,557 for the Department of Commissioner of Air-irks itiservient to the Great Western Company, who
Ireland ; £15,100 for Kingstown Harbour ; £8,7,957 for
salaries and expenses connected with the new Houses of would strain every nerve to influence the election of com-
Parliament ; £35,171 for Treasury salaries ; £16,466 for missioners. Under all the circumstances, he respectfully
,Home Department salaries ; £45,169 for Foreign "ffise suggested that the committee should merely report the
salaries ; £2O 160 for Colonial-oSce salaries ; £46,146
evidence taken on the bill to
for Board of Trade salaries ; £10,676 for the Privy Seal with a measure of such greatl
salaries ; £ll ~513 f
e- -- -or Paymester-General's Department .mportance as a public bill.
the house, leaving it to deal
salaries ; £4,218 for
r
and Forest DP Cent-roller of the Exchequer; £18,614 Mr. David ROWLAND, Secretary
to the Pilot Committee,
for Department C 4
Works salaries ; £15,145 for Woods was then examined by Mr. Burke, and gave evidence
Partrnent ; £13,867 for Public Record- relating to the constitution of the commission and to the
office ; £217,2'10 for Poor-law Board ; £36,195 for
£6,064 for officers in Scotland ; £6,431 for ', mode in which the business of the trust was conducted.
expenses of the mint ; £14,995 for inspection of
He said that the pilots were not overpaid, as their duties
mines
were most arduous, the value of the property entrusted to
the establishment of the Lord Lieutenant Department;
4:17,338, for Lunatic Asylums in Ireland; £15,997, for their care immense, and their trustworthiness .beyond all
1 Salaries and expenses ofthe Depatment of Commissioners of pilnta consisted of
praise. He believed that the present

-----
The Duke of ARGYLE opposed the motion.
The Bishop of KILMORE opposed the bill.
The Earl of DONOUGIIMORE gave up his opposition to the
bill, and threw the responsibility of it on the government.
The Marquis Of -WESTMEATH and Lord DUNGANNON
having offered some observations,
The motion of the Earl of WicKLow was negatived, and
the bill passed through committee.
Their lordships adjourned at ten minutes past nine.

HOUSE OF COMNIONS.—MoNDAY
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BILLS.

The Keith and Dufdown Rgtilway Bill (No. 2), the Port-
adown and Dungannon Railway Bill, and the South
Durham and Lancashire Union Railway Bill, were read a
third time and passed.

NEW MEMBER.

Mr. Pugh took the eaThs and his seat for Carmarthen-
shire, in the room of Mr. Davies deceased.
THE ROCHDALE ELECTION CASE.
Colonel FRENCH made a complaint of the committee on
the Rochdale election case having been made a secret in-
quiry, and asked of the Speaker whether any committee,
not having been appointed as a select committee, could
exclude members of that house. _ _ _

----
Mr. HENLEY explained that members were not excluded,
but only informed that it was considered that the public
service would he best promoted by members refraining from
entering the room, and members who were there did not
insist upon their right to be present.
The SREAKIR said that it was usual for members not
being on a committee to be excluded during the delibera-
tions of the committee, but there was no power possessed
by a committee to refuse to admit members—the ruling
had been distinct on this subject.

186 masters and journeymen, and that no less than 50,000
vessels entered the port in the course of a year.
By Mr. CALVERT : I believe that the mmmissioners will
pay the expenses of their opposition to the bill out of their
income of £9OO a-year.

By Mr. NORTH : The Commissioners have power to
appoint captains of merchant vessels pilots. Three such
applicatons were made, but they were rejected. Appeals
were made in consequence to the Board of Trader but they
failed.
Mr. BREMNER then addressed the committee on behalf
of the pilots. He urged that the rates of pilotage were
not too high. and that his clients simply received that to
which they were fairly entitled under the act of parlia-
ment. He intimated that he intended to cell evidence to
prove that the report of the Board of Trade in reference
to the pilotage commission, contained statements which
were entirely erroneous; that the duties of the pilots
were arduous, and not over-paid ; and that the public
interests would not be advanced by transferring the powers
of the existing commission to another body.

Lieutenant LORD said he was a lieutenant in the Royal
Wavy, and had been late marine surveyor at the port of
Liverpool. Had had twenty years' experience of the port
and estuary of the Mersey, the navigation of which was of
a most difficult and intricate nature. The estuary extended
to Ellesmere point, and changes so constantly occurred in
the sands and channels of the river that repeated surveys
were necessary in order to mark out a new passage for the
ships frequenting the port. Occasionally before one
survey could b 3 completed an alteration occurred whi
rendered another necessary, and required new buoys to
be laid down. The occurrence of such constant changes
imposed very arduous and difficult duties upon
the pilots, who were requiied to be constantly on
the spot. Was thoroughly acquainted with the pilotage
establishment of the port, and was convinced that
it was an excellent institution, that the pilots themselves
were a skilful and deserving body of men, and that the
boats in their possession were most efficient. He did not
conceive that the pilots were' overpaid. On the contrary,
he believed that the sum which they received was very in-
adequate for the important and dangerous duties which
they performed, and that it would be bad policy to de-
prive them of any portion of the funds which they now
received.

By the CIIAIRSIAN : I have no doubt that some of the
captains who are in the habit of plying to and from tha
port every week have sufficient experience of the port
to bring a vessel into the Mersey without danger.
By Mr. Noun : All changes in the channel are duly
notified to the pilots, and to the vessels and companies
having an interest in the port, and if they are very im-
portant they are advertised.
Mr. WILLIAM HUGHES was the next witness : He said he
had been in the service of the Pilot Commissioners more
than thirty years, and had 'been a master pilot for thirty-
two years.. All coasting steamers now plying to and from
the port could employ a pilot or not, at their own con-
venience. Many employed pilots, and others did not.
The charge for pilotage was made according to the draught
of water. A vessel employing a pilot was charged 4s per
foot, and a charge of is per foot was levied upon vessels
which declined the services of a pilot. The receipts for
pilotage in the year 1850 were £01,129 8s 2d ; and the
earnings of a first-class pilot amounted to £2OB 7s ld a
year, from which three guineas had to be deducted for the
license. In 1835 the gross receipts were £35,254 7s 3cl,
and the net earnings of the highest boat amounted t o
£2lB. The amount received from the consolidated fun d
last year was £7,085, while from unprevileged foreigners
£lO2 Os was received. The pilots could ill afford to lose
these sums. The pensioners on the Annuity Fund would
lose one-half of their pensions, and the income of the
pilots would be reduced by £3O each man if this source of
revenue were taken away. _ _ _

By Sir J. GRA.IIAM : 'The boats are held in shares by
the pilots. They cost about 2,000 each, and I have known
a share which had originally cost £2,000, be put up for
auction, but upon the condition that it should not be sold
for less than £7,000.

By Mr. PAGET: What the pilot boats earn is divided among
the pilots and is in addition to their receipts as pilots. I hold
eight shares in boat No. 1, out of sixty-four shares. When
I was first appointed twenty-twl yaars ago, I gave £5OO
for the sixteenth share of her. Last year a new boat cost
about £2,000, which earns upon the average abut £OOO
a year. I consider that my eighth share in a boat which
cost £2,000 is worth £l,OOO.
Mr. SHOTTLEWORTH was then re-called at the request of
the Chairman, and stated that when a new commodity
was introduced into the port, the town due upon
it was assimilated as near as possible to the dus upon
some approximate article.
Sir J. GRAHAM asked if the witness considered it legal
or illegal to increase the charges ?
Mr. SHUTTLF.WORTH : It is illegal.
Sir J. GRAHAM : Are you aware that the anchorage
dues have been increased ?
Mr. SIIIITTLEWORTII said trey were sd. at one period,
and now they were ls. and ls. 31 upon certain classes of
vessels.

Sir J. GRAHAM asked if any further evidence would be
tendered?

Mr. HOPE SCOTT, Q.C., believed not.
Sir. J. GRAHAM asked the learned counsel if he would
complete his remarks in answer to the case of tie pro-
moters to-morrow ?
Mr. H. SCOTT thought he should b 3 compelled to occupy
the attention of the committee during the whole of to-mor-
row and the greater part of the following day.
The committee then adjourned, at four o'clock.