Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-07-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

(By British and Irish Magnetic Telegraph.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.-TUESDAY.
he House met at five o'clock.

NEW sOITTH WALES.
The Dnke of NEWCASTLE, in presenting a petition from New South
Weles inquired of the Government whether it was intended to
s parate a portion of the colonial territory from the colony; and if
so, w,lat would bs the south boundary.
Earl GRANEILLE was understood to reply that Mffetown Bay
would be separated from the east of the colony, asd that the south
boundary would be between the 28th and 29th decrees of latitude,

MISCELLANEOUS BILLS.
The British and Irish Grand Junction Railway Bill, and the Newry
and Enniskillel Railway Bill, were read a second time.
The Midland Great Western Eallway of Ireland (Sligo Extension),
and Streumstown end Care Junctions Bills were read a thLd time
and passed.
The Crowded Dwellings Prevention Bill, the Turnpike Trusts
Abo7it'e I Bil,, and the Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill were read a
taird t me and passed.
The Prisoners' Removal Sill, sad the Enclosure Acts Amendment
Bill went throuch committee.
The Report of Amendments to the Registration of Long Leases
( 'cothind) Bi I was brought np aed received.
Lord St. LEONARDS drew attentiou to the measures that have been
Proposed for facili acing the transfer of land, a .d laid upon the table
a bill for simplifying titles to land.
Alter a brief discussion the bill was read a first. time.
ADMISSION OF JEWS INTO PARLIAMENT.
Lori CAMPBELL ro C to put a question to the Lord Chancellor
respe,.ting the cause (in error) Salomons v. Miler, row pending in
that lions; and drew att ntion to the present state of the que tion,
whether Jews, accord ng to the existing state of the law, were entitled
to sit in Parliament. The noble lord entered into a history of th -
cass. and inquired of the Lori Chancellor when they might expect
the decision of the court. He had hoped that public opinion would
have decided toe q -testi° a of the acmission of J 'we to Parliament this
session, bat the bill had been rejected, and it had now been proposed
that. the object should be accomplished by a resolution of the House
of Commo as. He deprecated that course being taken, which. would
be ana!ogou 3 to the French coup &eta!, and stated his opinion that
Jews cou'd only be admitted to sic hi Parliament by an act of Parlia-
, meet.
Tile LORD CHANCELLOR said the appeal referred to, stood over to
the presn'it ye r br cotse.nt of both parties.
Lord BROUGHAM expressed his (Tilden that an attempt to admit
the Jews to P..rliament by a iesolution, would be productive of great
evils.
After a few words from T ord Campbell, the sntject dropped.
Tae HoJse a:ljonrned at eight o'clock.

ROUSE OF COMMONS-TUESDAY.
Thz; SPEAKER took tho chair at twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lo-ds' amendments to the following bills : —Keith and D off-
town Railway (No. 2, IL 1 and tha Winchester Corporation Bill, were
considered and agreed to
HUNTINGDON ELECTION PETITION.
The members appointed to try the merits of the petition complain-
ing of the return for the county of Hundngclon wire called to the
table to be sworn, but Mr. Locke, the member for Honiton, did not
answer to his name.
The Sra A HER then informed the house that be had received a letter
from Mr Wagstaff, the solicitor for Mr. Locke, stating that Mr.
°eke had gone to Aix-la-Chapelle in id-health, under the supposi-
tiorithat he would not be required to serve on any committee during
the present sem' o r.
n the m-tion of Mr. Bass,
Mr. WAGSTAFF was cello 1 'o the bar, ard, having been sworn
stated that the facts contained in the letter were true.
Mr. WALPOLE regretted that the House should be put a second
time to inconvenie ca on this rubject. He believed that there was
sufficient reason why the House should not in ist on the attendance
of Mr. Locke. At the some time he must say that it was to be
regretted Mr. Locke had r ot written previous to his leaving London
to the Chairman A the General Committee of Elections.
Colonel W. PATTEN said he know that Mr. Locke left London under
th, supposition thxt all the elution committe s were struck, and
that his cervices wou'd not be required ; he therefore moved that, in
the opinion of the House, there was sufficient reason to excuse Mr.
Locke fro„ attendance oa the committee.
The motion was agreed to.
LEawICH-ON-TWEED ELECTION PETIT ON.
The SPE A KEE informed the Hou.se that he had received information
ram the parties to this petition, st oting that It was not their inten-
tion to proceed ith the petit'ons complaining of the returns of Mr.
Stapleton and Mr. C. illejoribanks for the town of Berwi it-upon-
T d

RANKING RILL.
Mr. veva moved that the House resolve itself into committee on
th s subject.
Mr. HE t,rLAM appealed to th right hon. gent:eatan not to proceed
with so important a bill in a morning sitting, when it was evident
from the state of the House, there being scarcely forty members pre-
sent, that it could not he properly discussed.
Mr. HADFIELD hoped the bill would not be passed during the pre-
sent session. He had been strongly urged to make this appeal to the
right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Kinglake, Mr. H. B. Sheridan, and other members. joined in a
similar appeal.
Mr. Lows said he introduced the bill in ti ee to allow ample con-
sideration of its provisions. The bill was a very important one, and
if he were to postpone it now it would be tantamount to its abandon-
ment ducting the prese t session. The joint stock banks and the
Sco.ch brinks bad commueicated with him on the subject, and the
amended bill carried out their suggestions, without, however, altering
the prieciple 0' the measure. He believed the. bill was very much
wanted. Its object was to alter the present system of winding-up
banks which expe ience had shown to be in a very defective state.
Ile would, therefore, not take upon himself the responsibility of poit-
poning the bill.
Mr. GLYN adm tted that the right hon. gentleman introduced many
improvements in the bill. Bat et 11 there remained the 14th clause,
which permitted arty seven persons to establ sh a bank with a few
hundred pounds. (Hear,. hoar.) He was bound to say, howeqer,
that was the only objection remaining of the bill. He thought the
private bankers were very hardly treated. If they .wished to
strengthen their establishments they could not do so at present,
because the number of partners could not exceed six. He thougilt
tS at if they were allowed to Weed their partnerships to ten or
twelve, it would be a great improvement. Ha hoped, therefore, his
right hon. friend would sanction an altertvion of the 11th clause in
that respect.
Thu house then went into committee.
HEADL/011 moved an amendment to provide for the establish-
ment of Joint Stock flanks upon the principle of Limited Ltabili'y
Under this system, a company wand have t a depend upon Its own
exertion, and the practice of working upon fictitious credit—as was
the cane with the Royal British Bank—could not occur.
Mr. BERNARD, an exten,iee shareholder in the London and County
Joint Stock Bank, gave his support to the amendment, and observed
that the failure of unlimited Rabin y had been illustrated in the case
of the Royal British B ink.
Mr. Archibald HASTIE depr. catecl the principle of limited libility,
which allowed a Company to specula's to the extent of .€ 0,000 or
£3,1,000 w.th a risk of but £lo,oo3—such a system would tend rather
to increase th in diminish -peculation, end would prove m st dis-
astrous to the commerce of the country.
Mr. GLYN did not th nk the proper time had been chosen for
introducing the question to the consideration of the House, and
recommended the hon. member for Newcastle to leave the mat. er in
the hands of the Government, to be considered by them during the
recess, witn a view to bring in a bid next session to amend the
existing law.
Mr. Slim eats suggested that the liability of hareholders should be
limited to three times the amount of the holding.
Mr. Basse6E opposed the am,ndinent, on the ground that in pro-
portion to the responsibility 'of shareholders, would be the prudence
displayed in the management of banks.
Mr. Bemuses and Mr. RIDLEY opposed the amendment.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, considering the state of the House and the
• period of the session, recommended that the hon member for New
castle should not, by dividing, pledge the Government and hon.
members to a marticulated course upon thls subject.
air. LowE also appealed to the lesn. member to withdraw his
amendment.
Mr. HEADLAM consented not to divide the House, and the amend-
ment was negatived.
The several clauses were agreed to, and the bill was reported with-
out amendment.
- • --

BILLS PASSED.

The Loan Societies Bill,
The Commons Enclosure Bill,
The Boundsries of Land (Ireland) Bill,
The Public Work, (Ireland) 8.11,
The 1-and and Assessed Taxes, &c. (Scotland) Acts Anaendinen
Biil, and
The Public Health (Alderahott) Bill, were severally read a thid
time and passed.
The Bankruptcy and Insolvency (Ireland) Bill was considered as
amended, and some new causes and amendments having been in-
serted, was ordered for a third reading.
MLLDON ELECTION.
Sir Jona TROLLOPE brought up the report of the committee upon
the Malden election r etition, which stated that the sitting members
were duly elected, and that the petition against J. B. Moore, Esq., was
frivolous and vexa iota,.
The sitting was then suspended.
LISBURN ELECTIWY PETITION.
The SPEAKER annonneed the abandonment of the petition com-
plaining of the return for the borough of Lisburn.
THE MERSEY CONSERVANCY Mil-
lar. ToLtESIACHE asked Sir James Graham whether an expression
made use of by him, en bringln, up the report oft he Mersey Cans
servancy Pill, was to be understoid as implying at the passing of
eecond reading' of the bill pledged the house to the principle
Sir G. Glace objected to the question, and it was not replied to
INTO .
TOE VALIDITY OP CERTAIN OATHS.—LDMISSION OF JEWS
PARLIAMENT.
Lord JOAN RUSSELL Ventmo er leave to.briagiu a bill to amend the
act 1 and 2 Via. Cap. 105—itled an act for removing doubts as to
the validity of certain oaths. The noble lord alluded to the various
proceedings in ref n.ence to the admission of Jews into Parliament, and
contended that though the Upper House had refused to, act in
accordance with the opinion of a majority of 114 in that House, it was
ni eesßary tor the maintenance of religious libmty, and for the defence
of their privileges, that they shouldmot be baffled. (Cheers.)
not wish to place that House in collision with the House of Lords, and
he therefcre proposed to effect the object that he had in view rather
by a bill than by resolution, lie proposed merely to explain an act of
Parliament authorising its ealoosion, to the oaths taken by members
of the house of Commons, and in that he was but asking
Parliament to perform one of its legitimate functions. The
words "On the true faith of a Christian " were introduced
directly after the gunpowder plot, and the object Was, not to secure
that the person swearing profested Christianity, but to secure in the
mot binding farm allesionce to the sovereign. But Roman Catholics
had ceased t i tke that oath ; Quakers NN em exempted from it; and
he now asked for the. Jews, that they too mallet be allowed to sub-
scribe to an oath binding upon their consciences. This question
mast be settled by bill, or by resolution, but he hoped that his bill
would be adopted, that they might not be compelled to act separately
from the House of Lords.
Mr. WALPOIE objected to a subject being twice brought forward
in the same session, and recommended the House not to take a step
that would draw the House into collision with the House of Lords.
lle also object -d to the bill on the ground that there were. important
measures before the House to be settled, and that the. session was
coming to a close • bat he would rather see fi ty Jews admitted to
Parliament than 'the Constitution being broken through by the
separate action of the House of Commons.
air. Dietwiter thought the House had acted unwis.ely an refusing to
administer oaths binding npou their conscience: to Boron Rothschild
and Mr. Salaroons when they at first claimed their seats, but he now
suggestd that they shoula repair their error without allowing the
Lords ei interfere in a case relating axe' naively to their privileges.
Mr. Pima emtanded that there was no popular a:, Ration to justify
the re-introduction of this question at the end of a long session.
Mr. GILPIN thought the time had come when the decision of a large
rn,j ority of the Commons should cease to be disregarded by tha Lords;
hut he recommended separate actions in regard to the ealtnlssion of
Jews only as a last resource.
Mr. ITLWDEGATE advocated, upon religious grounds, the exclusion
of Jews from Parliament, and characterised the measure under consi-
deration, as a bill to relieve Baron Rothschild from the pledge given
by him at his election, that he would reign his seat if a bill for the
removal of Jewish disabilities was rejected I
Mr. Cox contended that the Horse hart power to decide what oaths '
should be I aken by its members, an i urged hen, members not to
abandon +hat privilege through fear of a collision with the Lords.
Mr. LIDDELL concurred in the opinion that the House`tould settle
tba question by a resolution, but believing the time inappropriate to
,
try the queationould not vote upon the motion before the Honse.
Mr. Axiareei asserted that the wurds ' Oa the true faith of a

Christian" were part of the oath, and that it would therefore be ille-
gal for Baron Rot lschild to take hi, seat by a reNolation of that House
to omit the words; it was necessary that they should proceed by an
act of Parliament, and he believed that had the Government been in
earnest, the House of Lords would not have rejected the Prime
Minister's bill.
Mr. PACKE offered some remarks.
Lord PALMER TON said hs and his col'eagues were•as anxious as his
noble friend to effect the object which the bill under consideration
had in view. Till he saw more clear y what the provisions of the bib
were, he could only assent to it introducti, at. Bet in the present
state of public business, he did not know that he con d consent to
give it precedence over all other questions, till it should pass to the
other House.
Mr. GLADSTONE had voted for many years for the admission of
Jews ts Parliament, but he did not think it would be advisable to a t
in a manner contrary to the principles of the constitution to effect
that object. He had suffinient confidence in the Peer. to believe that
they wonld al way s give way to the oft-repeated and well-ascertair ed
wishes of the Commons. The object of the Bill of his noble friend
was to leave it to tie the discretion of Peril anent, to
administer the oath to a Jew in a form binding upon
his coascierce, and tie other bill having been to remote
the existing religions tests, the constitutional obj cctinn to the intro-
duction of two measuiea on the same subject, in the same session,
did not apply. Upon the whole, he thought the bill entitled to the
favourable consideration of the House.
Spin War rEstna objected to a question of such importance being
IPft to be decided at differ nt times according to the humour of
the hcuse.
Mr. HILLYARD opeosed the bill, and Mr. BUSMAN supported it.
Lord Jess RUSSELL replied.
The house then divided. The numbers were :
For the bi 11.... ........
Against it..

_154

jority...
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
Mr. Cann> moved fo, leave t., bring in a bill to p•ovide fot the
collection of apicultaral statistics in England and Wales.
A brief conversation ensued, afte which Leave was given.
Mr. J. A. SMITH obtained leave to bring in a bill for discharging
claims of the New Zealand Company on the preceeds of sales of
waste lands in New Zealand.
The +ssessments (Scotland) Bill went through Committee.
The Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill also woot
through Committee.
On the motion f,r the third reading of the Indnsirial Schools Bill,
Mr. COBS TT moved that it be read a third time that day three
month..
56
11,3 House then divided, the numbers 13-Aug,
For the motion ..... . •• •• •
Against it ........ 21

Majority . .
The bill was accordingly read a tlfrd time and passed.
Tne Home aljourned shortly after one O'clock.

ANNUAL MEETING OF THE BRITISH
ARCH2EOLOGICAL SOCIETY.

FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.

The et nnuil Congress of the Archonlogin? Institute of Great Britain
and Ireland commenced yesterday at Chester, the place which had
been faxed upon by the Council as the place of meeting for the present

year.
The Town Hall, which had been placed ot the disposal of the
Association, was the bui'dlng in which the Lusiness was opened.
Amongst those present were the Lord Talbot de Malahide, President ;
the Lord Bi hop of Oxford ; Sir Charles Anderson ; Edward Hawkins'
Esq., F.R.S., of the Br tish Museum ; J. H. Barker, Esq,, F.S.A. ;
J. H. Markland, Esq., D.C.L. ; C. Tucker, Esq., of Exeter; S. H.
Parker, Esq. of Oxford; the Rev. il. H, Gunner, of Manchever ; and
other members of the council and society; in addition there were also
present several influential gentlemen from the locality, including the
Loth Bishop of Chester; the Rev. Canon Slade; Mr. Councillor
Picton ; the Mayor of Chester ; Sir Stephen elynne, Bart.: W.
Waide,l, Esq. of Chester, Sec., Ste. There wore also present several
ladies.
The noble Pe ESIMNT having taken the chair, 'he Mayor of Chester,
in his civic robes and gold chain of office, together with several mem-
bers of the coporation being present,
The Tower CLERK advanced and read an address from. the Corpo-
ration, welcoming the members of the Association to Chester, and
assuring them of the assistance of the Corporation in inspecting the
various objects of interest in tee city.
Lo d TALBOT, onhehalf of the institute, thanked the corporation
for the kind manner in which they had come forward and welcomed
them on their visit to that city. To them it was a source of great
era' ificaeion when they found influential bodies, Bush as the Corpo-
ration of Chester rallying round their standard. Since the institute
had been in existence it had been in many places of gre t
interest, historically interesting, and interesting on many other
grounds; but he venture to predict, from the acquaintance likely to
go on with this city within the next few days, that no place at which
it had ever yet met would afford the members of the institute
gr ater gratifl ation than a visit to Chester and i's neighbourhood.
They all knew what a prominent part Chester had played in the his-
torY of the country; they knew, indeo I, that it stood forward through-
out the whole of an history; they knew that it bad, for a great number
of years, given a name to a royal prince ; and they also knew that at
all times it had be n distinguished for its attachment and loyalty-to
the throne, as welt as the liberty of the subject. (Cheers.) In con-
clusion, he begged to return the corporation the best thanks of the
society for the honour they had done it.
The Lord BISHOP of CHESTSH next came forwar 1, and a id that
having had his name coupled with the names of far more distinguished
persons than himself, as patrons of the meeting at Chester, it had
fallen to his lot, in their names, to bid his lordship and the members
of the society welcome to this place. He begged to assure them that
they participeted in all the sentments that were so well expressed in
the adrims which the Corperation had just presented. It was great
compliment they had paid to C nester in meeting there this year, and
he was satisfied that all h7s fellow townsmen would appreciate it as
such. If anything could add, any accidental circumstance could
add, to the honour that was done them, it was in the circumstance he
was about to name. Yesterday afternoon he received a letter from
Lord Talbot (who was oat of Englan i when he wrote
the letter), expressing his great regret that be was afraid it
weal not be possible for hi m to reach London before last night.
He only did arrive in London last night, and it was by the earliest
train that he left London, in order to be present at the opening of the
proceedings. He thought it was a very graceful act on the part of
Lord Talbot to do his best to be present. (Hear, and cheers.) He
believed that all tile inhabitants or Cheater—although erhaps they ,
might not know the most effectual way of doing it--wou'd do their
best to make the business and the visit of the society as agreeable Si
possible. There was no place in the country surpassed the City of
C ;ester in historical Interest. From the tma of the Romans, to the
mediaeval and middle ages, and to the period eh--ii liberty began to
dawn, and when one scarcely knew how to distinguish between
chivalry and lioerty—throughout all these periods Chester stood con-
saicuously prominent in the history of the country, and therefore no
place could have been more appropriately selected for its place of
meteing than Chester. (Hear, and cheers.) In the name of the
patrons, he bade the society welcome.
'fhe Rev. Canon Saar's, on the part of the Dean and Chapter, had
much pleasure in inviting the society to inspect he venerable cathe-
dral After dwelling upon the many objects of interest which the
cathedral contained, he concluded by assuring the society that eery
facility for an inspection would be given.
Mr. H oKLIN, as the official representative of the Chester Archie ales
gical and Historic Society, said it was his duty to bid the ass 'elation
welcome to the ancient city of Chester; knowing some little of
archmological pursuits, he felt certain that the sojourn of the associa-
tion among them would be the means of promoting active inquiry,
enable forgotten generations to live again, and give the society
the opportunity of gathering instruction for future ages. The Chester
Archmdogical Society would be glad to give them any information
they might possess, and afford them every assistanc in investigating.
the historical remains of the city. The speaker, In an eloquent speech,
en'arged on the deeply interesting historical associations of Chester
Its h story dated back to the period, when history itself might be said
to fall info fable, and was associated with the Dams, the Normans,
and all the pomp of chivalry.
Lord TALBOT, in a short but appropriate address, acknowledged the
kindness of the preceding speakers.
The Lord BISHOP of (Aeolus next came forward, and said that as
an old member of the institute, and on behalf of his brother members,
he begged to return their thanks to the Lord Bishop of the Dioce-e,
and also to Use Dean and Chapter, for the warm and cordial welcome •
which they had given to the society. He wa equite, sure that every .
member of the institute would join with him in the acknowledgment
of their kindness. Indeed, they would not only be bad members of '
the Institute, but bad men if they did not very sincerely acknowledge
such a welcome, because the peculiar interest that marked this society,
and which marked, indeed, their common country, was the circum-
stance that, instead of building the present upon the past, and hiding
the past as a foundation—instead of doing this, the very special
characteristic of the .ociety and of our country had been, that whilst
it had conserved the old, it had, more than any other country, invent2d
the new ; that by the singular tact of her people shelled kept the old
in a stet • of preservation, and yet had got ahead of any other piton
in embodying the new. The cateedral wis a kind of thermometer
showing the character and mind of the' notion, and ha did believe
that the chapter did. wed in adding its welcome to that of his right
reverend brother the bishop of the diocese, because. there
was something more than idle curiosity in diving into the duet of
antiquity, as this society was in the habit of doing. The great-, Cromer
of this world had so ortiained the affairs of man that things old eN. aye
did return in a perpetual cycle—the past coming back with the pro-
sent, gradually, but truly, in the kernel of 'Things, the same as it was
before; and, therefore, when people did set them-elves to study the
past—not to get a mere superficial knowledge, but to see it its- it lived.
and more, and had its being ; to see it in all the circumstances; of
its inward life—these people di I get a sort of prescience of the future
in the part. (Hear, hear.) All things proved this. We knew, from
history and research, that in almost all ages liberty and authority was
apt to run into tyranny, and the most blessed efforts ever made for
man rendered fruitless, if not watched and checked; and, there-
fore, he said that the man who did thoroughly understand
the past was best able to guide and-direct the future. Danger was
prevented, as the poet said, by "the man in whom old experience
does attain." Now thepower of understanding the danger, depended
uponinvestigating the old mischiefs—the ability toseparate what was
good in the old from what wasted. A discerning eye would see that,
though. there were the mischiefs, the old truths must have had some-
thing good to grow upon, are therefore, if by historical research into
antiqatty, we could get hold ef the old truths and cut off the old errors
which were in them, then we should be providing in the future a
blessing to our race. (lieer., hear.) He therefore begged to thank
the Lord Bishop of the diocese for welcoming the institute to Cheater,
and it was in this spirit that on behalf of the institute, he accepted the
kind welcome offered. (Cheers.)
Mr. Markland and, Sir C. Anderson h tying briefly addressed the
meeting, a vote of thanks to the society for paying a visit to Chester
was Carried with acclamation.
Lord TeLeor in appropriately acknowledging the compliment, re-
ferred to the practical labours and °elects of the institute, and said
there was one subject in which the iustitute took a deep interest. He
alluded to the question of treasure trove. According to the present
law in this country, any article of worth which was found in tb e earth
became the property of the Crown, and the consequence was, that in
a great many instances the most valuable articles were destroy-d.
They foweel their way into the crucible, instead of into the Brush
Museum. (Hear, hear.) This was a great evil. dr-Denmark they
had so altered the law as to, meet this very grievance. They had given
to the person who found thins s articles the value of what he found,
at the. same time reserving to the state the power of claiming it on
paying its value. He was sure t' at such a change might be made in
this country without violating therights of property, which he should
be sorry to do. Under the present system no good was effected, nor
any one benefited; but under an altered_ system such as he bad
referred to, no one could complain. Ho had for some time been
endeavouring to have the matter brought under the notice of Parlia-
ment. Nothing, however, had yet been done, but if some one did not
undertake it, it was his intention to move for a select committee to
inquire into the subject. (Heir, hear.) Ile tru•ted that all the
Archreological Institutions in the country would come forward and
collect facts to show the evil of the present state of things. An
inquiry of this kind should not be lett to declamation, but there
should be a collection of facts to speak for themselves. (Hear, hear.)
His lordship concluded by a reference to the business before the
congress and the papers to be read, and expressed his hope that
they would have a successful meeting.
The preliminary proceedings were then brought to a close, and the
members proceeded to visit objects of interest in Cheater.
In the evening, the members and their friends again assembled,
when an interesting paper was read on the tour of King Henry
111,
banquet,
o'clock. The afternoon will be devoted to visits of objects of interest,
oi n.
day, Cheshirethe
variousand rdj osieneitnitoghneeso tu tawntutilui ea:
nl.
est in the Town-hall, at ten
anti this will be followed by

MERSEY CONSERVANCY BILL.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-JULY 20.

The order of the day for the Enond reading of this bill having 1. een
ret, _ _ - •

Z be Duke of NEWCASTLE presented petitions in its favour from the
corp orations of Salford, Leeds, Huddersfield, Bradford, Clitheroe, and
sera -al other public bodies.

e Marquis of WEstimrstErt also presented petitions in reference
to it ;from the city of Chester.
The Earl of DERBY presented a petition against it signed by 13,00)
of the inhabitants of Liverpool, comprising among their number 900
of the ,nrincipal merchants of that city. The petiticners alleged that
wher I the management of the Liverpool Dock estates was at present
vested it 1 a body consisting of 21 parsons, 12 of whom were the repro-
sentativt is LI the corporation, which was elected by the ratepayers
generally and the other 12 by the dock ratepayers, the bill under the
notice of the House proposed to alter the constitutional body and to
f rm a nee v tract from -which the corporation was to be altogether
excluded. The petit criers then proceeded to u-ge their objec ions to
that propost3l, complaining that it would introduce into toe manage-
meat of the ,clock esta'e the principle of Government influence, and
that it would in that and other respects operate as a great injustice,
notwithstandlng that the bill contained no allegation of mtl-adminis-
tration or breach of trust upon the pa -t of the existing management.
They also complained of the appropriation of the town dues without
the aligh'est cotapensatioe for such appropriation being made. They
then went on to state th-it a measure upon such a subject ought to 100
a public and not a private bill. For the present he would content
himself with stating to their Lordships the allegations contained in
the petition, reserving to himself the right of making such further
observations as he:might think tit upon tl,e motion, which he under-
stood a noble friend was about to make, to postpone the second
reading of the bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought that after the decision which
their lordships had arrived at with raged to the Thames Conservancy
MI it would not be necessary for him to trouble them at any length
in asking them to agree to the second reading of the present Bill, but
he would proceed at once to' give some account of the origin of the
measure. It would be unneeessary for him to go back to all the vari-
ous transactions connected with rod ,ing deco upon shipping in Liver
pool, or into the histo7 of Vie legislaticn which had taken place upon
the subject at successive peso Is. Their lordships, however, world
recollect that in 1814, in consequence of a supposed inability on the
part of Liverpool to supply th, greatly increasing wants felt in differ-
ent quarters, the Birkenhead. Dock project was originated, and appli-
cations co fleeted with that project had been made to the Legislature

in every sueceeling ye at. In the year lees no less than four such
13.11 s had been introduced, which had been classed in one group and
referred to a select committee. After a. careful consideration that
committee rejected those measures, and proposed certain measuree
s a compromise, and those were agreed to by the conflicting parties ,
and last year a Bill had been irstredneel by the Corporation of Liver -
pool to carry that compromise into elect. That Bill, howevet:
nsglected some of the most important provisions laid down by tb-e
committee, and open its being referred to a committee it was nega-
tived as being a breach of the conditions agreed upon during the
previous year. A similar ieessare la el again been introduced during
the present year, but fortunately for the interests of the public the
Bill which he then asked their lordships to read a second time had
been also introduced, and was promoted by the general commercial
and railwao interests affects iby this question. He had been to d
that an attempt would be male to show that this Bill would enact
with regard to Liverpool that which had been proposed by Mr. Lowe
in the other House of Parliament with regard to passing tolls upon
shipping. That, however, was not the case, for the Bill introduced
by the right hon. gentleman proposed to abolish passing tolls
altogether, while the present Bill placed the collection of them in the
hands of those whose iaterest it was to preserve them. With
regard to the allegation that the subject was one which ought
to be dealt with by a public and not a. private Bill, ha could
only say that, In his opinion, it was fairer to all the parties
interested to deal with the question by a private measure. The very
objection which had been urged against the Bill of Mr. Lowe wa s
that it was a public Bill, and the noble lord at the head of the Govern-
ment, in withdrawing it, had. admitted that objection. He believed
aso that those who opposed the Bill would a ivance the suggestion
that it w is an act of spoliation, but he was prepared to show that
Parliament had legislated upon cognate subjects in a manner muck
more stringent. Their lordships would recollect the Municipab
Corporations Act, and he would appeal to noble and learned lords.
whether, at the time that Act WAS passed, it was not the opinion cE
the most emirs nt lawyers of the day that that measure dealt with•
private proserty in the most absolute-sense of the word. Three years-
ago a measure was pissed welch dealt with the Trinity Board ins
manner still more strongly. It not only diminished their rights and,
interfered with their revenue, but it introduced that principle cf
central control which tad been.so much objected to, and that to a much
greater extent than was effected, by this Bill ; fcr, while only three
oat of that ,enty-one members of this board wore to be nominated by
the Government, the Trinity Board was in most material reopects
placed under the control of the Board of Trade. ,There was no
foundation for. the assertion that this was a measure of spoliation,.
because this was net private property in the sense in which it hedebeen
asserted to be. so. Fora long time the Liverpool Corperatioa
regarded themselves as no more thee trustees of the fund for shipping
purposes. and coasidered only the surplus, if even that, as applicable
to the wants of the town. The time had come when it was alosoliesely
necessary to carry out the rents:imam lations of the committee ever
which Mr. Labouchere had presided, and to constitute a trust elected
by those interested in the docks. There was a great accrsmalation of
authority in favour of the Bill, a great number of petitions had. been
-presented, praying that it might-pa.as into law. and ha4coult not
believe that there would be any serious attempt made new to oeetraet
its further progress. He hoped.„therefore, that their lordships would
consent to send the Bill to EI select committee. The noble drakes
concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
Lord RAVENSWORTH rose to oppose the bill, as beine a violent rand
arbitrary measure, at Variance with the existing law of the; land, and
with the great principles of justice which ought to regalete all pro-
ceedings of this kind, and subversive of the righta of property. It
was true that the bill had passed the House of Ccmreons without any
serious opposition, but its progress had been ettendee with very
peculiar circumstances. When interests of thiaanagnetude were to
be considered he did net' know that there was a worse tribunal than
the House of Commons upon the second readieg, of a private bill,
Hon. metnbers were anxious to get to the public business ; it was
supposed that the subject would be thoroughly considered by the
committee upstairs;: a buzz of impatience generally went through
the House. and the greatest desire was expressed: to dispose of the.
measure. Mr. Milner Gibson, when the see and reading of this bill
was proposed, said, the House would not affirm the principle of the•
measure by assenting to the second reading. Yet what took place in
the cotounitese i There the chairman stated that the committee
would probably have entertained a peculiar difficulty with regard to
the principle, if it were not that that principle had. already been
adopted and :sanctioned by the House. As regarded the mope 'Lion
of the se committees, members supposed to be particularly interested,
in the subject were not admitted to serve upon them, bat this emelu-
isiore his opinion, was a piece of one-sided j aetiee and partial im-
partiality; no precaution was taken -against having as members, or
even as chairman, gentlemen who had come to foregone conclusions
on the subject of consideration, and it was thus possible that the
grossest partiality and injustice might be perpetrated. He contende I
that ties was a measure of spoliation. The principle of eter.pensai ion
was altogether ignored by the bill, although It had bee a acted upon.
over and over again in similar cases by the Legislature. He believed
that the object in proposing the bill was to achieve a ecnettest over
the corporation of Liverpoal, which could not have been achieved if
Liverpool had been joined with the other ports of the kingdom in a,
general bill; and when that conquest over Liverpool was effected the
other ports would be dealt with its succession in a similar manner..
The noble duke had said that the corporation of Liverpool had neg-
lected the interests of that port ; but if that were so, how did it happen.
tnat the shipping of Liverpool had increased so enormously, and that
her new docks eetended several miles? The noble duke had given no
good reason way their lord hips should assent to the second roasting
of a privates bill which interfered with importaet objes's and
menaced the security of the property of every corporation. In the.
bingdom. He
,begged, therefore, to move thel the bill be :cad a
second time that day Vane months.
Lord WENSUYpAIE (who was vary Indistinctly heard in the
gallery)said that he felt it his duty to oppose the second -reedit, g of
this Bill. The measure was one which their lordships' well-kieown
regard for the right of property should Induce them to rejeeta The
right to these tolls was
_origin illy granted' by the Crown, and the
mere fact that the revenue. raised from them had enormously in-
creased in no wsy affected the validity of the title of their owners.
This Bill involved principlei which ought not to be ietrodnced into a
private measure. The right of the corporation of Liverpool to levy
these tells, had been established beyood all doubt. The total amount
which they produced in the year 1a72, was only £`22. In 18.47 they
had increased to £leo.ooo, and they now amounted to £lsa,co 5. If
the corporation of Liverpool were to be robbed of this amount with-
out compensation they would be obliged teirepose a borough rate.
the value of property within the borough would be diminished, and
private interests would be seriously affected, The Liverpool docks
were commenced in 1710, when they occupied only five acres. They
now covered an area of 2ee acres and were 16 miles in length,. Pre-
vious to 1825 they were under the ohs management of the corpora-
tion, but in that year the merceants obtained a share in the, manage-
ment and were associated with the corporation is the dock trust.
No complaint had been made that the dock trustees had failed to
provide
ensutiatrayb,leodrocpkubali.rtonrmodation,
valuable a property from 'he corporation of Liverpool without com-
pensation. (Hear, hear.) He thought ha had stated to their lord-
ships reasons sufficiently strong why they should mot read the Bill a
reasonablea niscir ground deof ourld,toc,ctiz ealwvaaynsoo
second time. To do so woo d be, in his opinioa, to act in Lionviolan of
that great pr rciple of our law by which it was provided that n ethe noble and learned
son should be deprived of lets property without due compensation
being made. (Hoer.)
The Marquis of Ceerrateeeee contended thr,t neither the noble lord
wholord hwandomlloavdejaustthseatrediolf,nhaodf tfhtiernßiel:l-e'lllalay grounds which would
justify their lordships in departing fe em ;la at course which in relation
to private bills they uniformly adopted.
e those noble lords had
indeed, maintaMed that the measure 'adore the House would effect
the rights of private property ; but was not that, he would ask, 'he
case with every measure of a priTP.te character which had came under
their jordships' consideration?
(Hear, hear.) He should also beg
their lordships to bear In mind that the committee of the other House
of Parliament towhich this bill had been referred had deemed it to be.

'their duty to sit for 25 days he order thoroughly to investigate
'details ; that Mr. Hope Scott ad the learned gentleman who hal been
pposed to him hal each occupied two days In commenting upon its
provisions and in summing up the evidence, wit Is their lordships
sought to dispose of the whale question in a desultory debate of two
or three hours. (Hearhear.) Now, he was well aware that the
noble lord who had moved the rejection of the bill was capable of
eakhag for two days if he ch nose (laughter); bat then, he hal con-
tined his observations within a very much narroyrerlimit ; and he (the
Marquis of Clanricarde) could not help think ng that a measure with
raipect to which the committee had taken so long a time to deliberate
could not be satisfactorily dealt with in a few short speeches of that
description. He must also mai e tain that the principleof compensation
which it was said was involved in the bill was one which their lord-
' thips were night after night in the hebit of referring to the considers..
ton of a select committee. The bill, however, involved something
mere than the princireeof compensation ; it embraced the question of
the cosserrancy of the river Mersey—a question of ties utmost
importance, one in which the commerce, not only of this country but
of the whole world, was concerned. Would ther lordships then deem
themselves j ratified in the summery rejection of a measure of that
nature repo r the ground that it interfered with private property,
witleena at all eve eta, taking the necessary steps to ascertain to what
extent that property would be effected 1 The fort was that the
membe.c of the corporation of Liver celeseemed to have got the notion
into their heads that the trade of the Kersey should lise carried on for
the special benefit of that to 4n, bat he trustee their lordehips would,
by assenting to the second reading of the bill, and its subeeqnent
reference to a select committee, show teat they were prepared to take
a somewh t dtretent view of the subject. (Hear, heir.)
The Earl of DERBY said, that if the Bill hed been one of an.
ordinary character he should concur wits the noble m rinses who had
just spoken in the opinion that it was desirable it should be referred
to a select committee. He was prepared, however, to urge a departure
from that course, because hernaintaned that their lordships, and not
a twice:l-committee, ware the p.oper judges of the iplu involved
in a =satire, and because, notwithstandlrg anything which the noble
marquis might urge to the contrary, the prineiple which was con-
tained in the ifill unirm their lordships' notice was one which he
(Lord .Darby): Led never known to be embraced in any private, and
hardly in any public r nactment —he moaet the principle of taking
away erivate plates ty without affording compensation. (Hear.)
There was one point connected with the subject to which he could
not heap referring, and that was that the Government, deviating from
the ordinary caurso with regard to private Bills, Lad exercised their
rnaueme more or less to turn it into a party camstien. He felt bound
to deprecate such a courea, and to assure their losdships that it had
not at least been adopted by noble lords on the side of the House on
which he had the honour of eating. The noble marquis had referred
to the magnitude of the intereet, involved in the Bill, but he would
beg their lordships to remember that those interests had acquired
that magnitude under the management of that yaw bely whom it
was now sought to oust from their pesitioa. Why, the increase in
the port of L verpool Lad teem perfect y marvellous. In 1710 the
docks extended over five acres, in 1811 that hal increase I to 30 acres,
and in,lehe to 203 acres, wut a the number of ships had in the last
ico years Inc' eased from 1,731 to 22,032: Then, pith regard to
the purchase of the Birkenhead interest, did not the noble
marquis know that at the time that hiterest s was purchased
the whole concern at .Birkenhead was in• a state of irretrievable
bankruptcy, caused by entering inn competition with Liverpool, and
that the sole object of the purchase was to save an enormous quantity
of property which would otherwise have been absciutely thrown away t'
So much. for the grasping views of L'verpcol with regard to Birken-
head. (Hear.) The.noble and learned lord opposite had entered so
folly into the legal claims which existed with regard to the town dues
that he would not await upon that Bala eat farther than to say that
those clams were perfectly =disputed ; they had been made the
subject of family settlements and of mortgages, which Parliament had
.sanctioned, and the-7. had been jadicia ly,reeognised irr the courts o
I law; and yet the present bill proposed to take away those rights, and
that without compensation It had been said that the corporation of
Liverpool hal dealt in an ungenerous way as regarded the matter of
' land in order to increase their own c eperatointerest ; but was that
really the case? Why, the committee which had inquired into the
whole question hat reported that they had, incurred expense for
docks, for the parehaseare land, for the erecti M of the new Custom
House, to an enormous amount, and had defrayed those expenses from
their revenue. It was proposed by the ;present bill to toi:e away an
undisputed rightfrona that corporation of .eloo,ooO or .e 150,000 a-year,
without giving them the slightest compensation ; the bill was, in point
of fact the thin end of the wedge which it was proposed to introduce
to carry out the principle of the general measure which the
Government had Weed to carry. (Hear,. hear.) A bill had.
been introduced last year by the right honourable the
Vice-President of the Board of Trade the effect of which would
have been to confiscate the property of the• various corporations of
towns throught England without giving them any compensation; and
perhaps their lordships h sd not dareotten the extraordinary doctrines
which had been laid down upon that occasion by the right hon. gen-
tlernan—ectrines of such a character that. even the pelLical friends
of the right hen. gentleman shrank from d,fenling them, and which
approached almeet lo the old Socialistic motto, "La propriete, c'eat
1e vol." (Hear, hear.) That Bill had been referred to a select com-
mittee, which Lad proceelea to inquire into the case of Li ierpoo
alone. In the meantime a private bill was introduced by persons
unconnected wish Liverpool affirming principles similar to those of
the measure which was withdrawn in the House of Commons. To
this Bill the Government lent their support in order to carry out the
principle in a private Bill with regard to one city, and thus to put at
their mercy all other corporations. This was nut a matter which.
ought tc be referred to a select committee of fire members. It was a
principle on which the rime ought to decide, and the proper stage
at which to take its ne,...lsion was cn the second reading of the Bill,
The prinoPple involved was the taking away of property from in-
dividaaLs, or corporations by legislative enactment without giving
them conr,iensation. That was a principle upon which we hal not
acted either in regard to the Danish Sound deep, or in regard to
pensions held by persons who had no right to them except that of
prescription. The noble marquis hal asked upon what ground those
who opposed this Bill had ou the present occasion departed from the
usual practice of the House. He would not ente7.lt.to the details of
the Bill, but if he did eo he could show the gram injustice and ramie
fast im policy of reemy of its provisions. There was no allegation
ci mismanagement, no charge of abase, no proof of injury done
On this contrary,, the greatest advantage had been derived ft oun the
existing; state of things; yet without any ostensible plaintiff they
were a) rout to take away the proper y of a corporation for purposes
which he certainly did not believe were of an exclusively public
nature a. This. was a departure from the Le variable practice of that
, /least r, and to the affirmation of tits principle involved in the Bill he
Coale, not with a sale conscience give his ascent.
Si net Secures of ALOE:MET, in vindicating the conduct of the
Go vernment in regard to this measure, denied that it was true, as had
Wen stated by the noble Earl, that tha measure introduced last ses-
sion for regulating passing tolls and abolishing local dues upon ship-
yeing was, rejected upon principle on theaecond reading.

The Earl of DERBY had not said that the measure was rejected
What he sail was that there ware such objections to it that the
Government were compelled to withdraw it
Lord STACSLEY of ALDERLEY—The noble Earl had sail that the ..
principle was condemned. That WAS not so. The ground upon
which it was referred to a select committee was that there were spe-
cial. circumstances connected with each harbour in re; ird t 3 which it
was necessary thiit evidence should be heard. Such evidence was

heard in regard to the port of Liverpool, and in the present session.
this measure was introduicd., It had two objects—one to transfe • the
town dues of Liverpool from the corporation to the dock trustees, and
the tether to vest the conservancy of the river and the management of
the
byudnoctki,sosoanwlphooth its
contri4shorteesdinta, so
tihneelme body,wanchiechosfhtohuelddbeeckesl,ecatneld
which should not betentrolled and dominated over by the corporation
of Liverpool. That the corporatioa of that plat had de ideated over
the docks, and had on mere than one occasion postponed the
interests of the harbour to those of tie town, it was not difficult to
prove. How long was it before warehoases were erected within the
limits of the does s, to which cargoes could be immediately trans:erred
from the vessels, h.:cease the inhabitants and corporation of Liver-
pooldridrive
e hadall
thewarge
oo
auss ews hich o
came tiht:t
ho cekps
ri nt to?
Iwah ilcsh they
s s t
there
erwishe
weads toa
project for making to ship calal to connect Wielasey pool with the
month of the Dee. The corporation of Liverpool were alarmed at this
scheme. and in cider to defeat it they paid the promoters of it
'18,!,000 for land which he believed had not cost them £lO,OOO.
There was some objection to this on the part of some shortsighted
inhabitants of Liverpool, and- Mr. Forster, the town cle-k, said that
the town canoe 1 of Liverpool, as the pretecters of the rights of the
burgesses, could not expend their funds bettor than ie preveutng the
establishment of a commercial rival' on the other side of the water.
This. showed what sort cf a parent Liverpool was likely to be to Birken-
head. This purchase put an end to the scheme until Mr. 'tendon drew
up his plan for making docks in Wallasey Pool. Liverpool applied to
Parliament for powers to purchase the docks, and the select commi tea
to which their bill was re-erre i imposed upon the dock committee
the obligation of refraining from spending money on the construction
of the docks which they contemplated along the north shore until
they saw *what Birkenheal could do to accommodate the increasing'
trade. e' Next year Liverpool brought forward a bat for effecting this
object, but of so inadequate a character, thet the select committee
threw it out after half-an-honr's examinat;on. of Mr. needed'. This
year independent parties, seeing that there was no tics ,ce of Liver-
pool caffeine oat the scheme, came forward and applied for powers
for the purpose. The arguments by which this bill was opposed were
exactly those which were brought forwa d when tho Municipal Core
porations Act was under discussion. Then it Was said that Parliamen
had no right to deal with corporate property without compensetion,
bat Parliament did so des; with the property of corporations on that
occasion, with these town due. among the rest, and Parliament has
an equal right so to deal with them now. Nothing more was done
tics bill than to transfer these (hies to the purposes for winch the:
were originally intended—the malntenance and improvement of till
harbour. It had undergone very careful and lobo ions consideradoi
before a select committee of the other House, lasting over 25 days
and he hoped their lordships would not consent to the motion f..r il
rejection.
Lori Repeseees woe afraid that, if in a private Bill they deal
with property in the manner ereposed, without giving any compansa
tion, they would be establishing a precedent which might hereafte
most injuriowsly affect private property.
After a few obscrvatio .s from the Dake of NEWCASTLE
11 reply.
Their 1, rdship3 divided upon the qu stion that Lois Bill be no
read a second time. The Lumbers were—
Contents .......... .
Non-contents

Majority. •••
The Bill was then read e second time.