Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-02-03 00:00:00

THE NORTHERN TIMES, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 3, 1859

salaries of Mr. T. M. Anderton and Mr. Richard Ellis,
clerks in the magistrates clerks' office, be increased from
£l5O to £2OO per annum each.
4. Report on the probable income and expenditure of
the corporation, for the year commencing Ist September
last, and ending 31st August next ; and consideration
of the propriety of voting "gratuities to the public charities,
which grants, as passed by the Council last year, were
as follows : —The Dispensaries, £157 10s ; Northern
Hospital, £lOO ; Southern, £lOO ; Royal Infirmary,
£105; Ophthalmic Institution, .£100; Refuge for the
Destitute, £25; Ladies' Charity, £3O; Lying-in Hospital,
£3O ; District Provident Society, £lOO.
The recommendation in reference to the increase of the
salaries of Mr. T. M. Anderton and Mr. Richard Ellis,
clerks in the magistrates clerks' office was deferred.
The other recommendations, with the exception of that
referring to public charities, were adopted without oppo-
sition.

Mr. Woodruff remarked, that the arrangements in the
surveyor's office would be a saving of £7O or £BO

a-year.
Mr. Stewart said, that the estimated expenditure of the
Corporation for the year ending on the 31st August next,
had been laid before the council and made up as nearly
as circumstances would permit; It necessarily followed,
that parts of this account could not be very closely
estimated, being a little uncertain, but they had taken
the best course in their power to arrive at the fairest
and best conclusion, and the council would observe, that in
the aggregate, there was a considerable surplus for the
current year. The gross surplus was £20,140 ; but a
portion of that has already been appropriated by the
votes of the Council, leaving a probable available surplus
of £10,563. With regard to the surplus, he thought it
his duty to call the attention of the Council especially
to a letter which he had received. He was sorry to say
that, since the report was printed, only on Monday last,
• a letter had been received from the treasurer, in reply to
one addressed to the treasurer by the late Mayor,
in September last ; and, certainly, that letter tended
rather to discourage him in the belief that they should
have expenled the whole of the £lO,OOO during the
municipal year. It was not for him to criticise letters
coming from high places, but, certainly, a more unsatis-
factory letter he never saw. It seemed to ignore the
whole of the arguments that were ably given by that
council against the objections made by the treasurer
against certain payments, made some time ago. In
reference to the amount received from prosecutions, so
far as he understood, in July last it was arranged that
they should separate the money which was absolutely
paid, from that part of the account which consisted of
provisional charges, and he certainly understood that
upon so doing the mo:iey out of pocket would have been
paid, whilst the provisional charges would remain over
fur arrangement. He thought it was only fair, and the.
treasurer 'would only be doing his duty by going
into these provisional charges very closely. Gentlemen
did consider that they had so arranged the matter
that the money paid out of pocket should be no longer
postponed. Gentlemen were aware that, after the
meeting in July, some tithe elapsed, and they received an
order for £6,000 some odd pounds on account of this
money paid out of pocket, with a very enormous string of
objections to pay the greatest part. However, this
was only half the sum which the Corporation had ex-
pended. And a very able letter was prepared by the
Town-clerk in answer to this long string of objections.
That letter was signed by the then Mayor, in the usual way,
and sent up in September and every means in their power
to haVe the matter arranged, because they were mixed up
with the corporation of Manchester. It was agreed by the
treasurer that they both should sail in the same boat,
and arrangements were made with the Town-clerk in
Manchester, and a letter prepared and sent up in Sept.,
and up till Monday last they never received any commu-
nication, and he did not see that they were one whit
nearer the point with all the explanations given by that
council. Under these circumstances, perhaps the council
would see the propriety of not expending the whole of
the £lO,OOO. The estimate presented a feature which no
other estimate before ever did, and this arose from the
change which had taken place in the amount of the town
dues received. In their estimates of that it ran
over a series of years, and a large sum of money
was received in lieu of what was derived
from these dues. In the estimated expenditure
in the shape of interest, they would find it was aggregated
at upwards of £20,000. It was, in his opinion, of the
utmost importance that that corporation should maintain
that income which arose from capital---money which
represented what used to be the former income of the
corporation estate and the great town dues. The closest
attention had been paid to the subject, in order to
arrive at the best way of securing that income. The
money to be paid by the Mersey Docks and Harbour
board has been paid to the very day. On the 31st Ail.
the bonded debt was £1,177,428, and during the muni-
cipal year of 1857, from September to the 31st
Aug., 1858, that money was reduced to £1,045,000,
and so the bonded debt stood at the commencement
of the present municipal year. At that moment
the absolute debt of the Corporation was £971,364 ; so,
in point of fact, rather better than £200,000 had been
paid up since the 31st August, 1857, in the reduction of
the debt ; or at least 41. per cent. interest met on the
average of the bond so paid off. To-morrow there would
be £2,000 more paid.
The following is the report adopted by the finance
committee .
At a meeting. of the Finance Committee, held on Friday,
the 28th day of January, 1859, present, John Stewart,
Esq., chairman, &c., &c., the following report having
been read, resolved, that the same is approved, and
that it be printed, with the data on which it is founded,
and that a copy be sent to every member of the
Council :
The Financial Sub-committee appointed to consider
the probable income and expenditure of the Corporation
during the present municipal year (commencing on the
Ist of September, 1858, and ending on the 31st of Aug.,
1859, REPORT
That they have investigated the accounts of the Corpo-
ration, and considered the state of the income and expen-
diture.
That they are, of opinion that the in-
come of the Corporate Estate from all
sources, cannot be estimated for the cur-
rent year at more than
That the amount of obligatory expendi-
ture cannot be estimated at less, for cur-
rent year, than

Leaving a gross surplus of

And that the continuance of branches
of discretionary expenditure (the schools,
the public charities, &c.,) for the public
benefit of the inhabitants, hitherto sanc-
tioned annually by the Council, may be
stated at £6,277 0 0
And also sundry improv-
ments already sanctioned
by the Council

3,300 0 0

£103,960 0 0

83,820 0 0

£20,140 0 0

Leaving as available surplus
JonN STEWART, Chairman of the sub-committee.

Mr. Jeffery asked an explanation as to the interest.
and also as to the item of reserved rents which amounted
to £3,042 ; how that amount rose, and also how it was
that the presentations at the assizes and sessions amounted
to £6,300 against £721 last year._ , .

Mr. Stewart said, with regard to the first question,
they had to pay the interest on a million of money,
bat they were now in receipt of interest on a
million and a half produced from the town-dues,
and other rights and privileges. Therefore this became
interest on money, and the interest was greater when the
Mersey Dock Board paid regularly every half year, than
the interest they had to pay on the bond debt, and in
order to apply that capital which they received periodically
from the docks, they paid up arrears, of course by interest,
and it was quite clear that £26,000 being substituted
for £130,000, would lesson the million alluded to. In
reference to the question of prosecutions, the law in this
case charged the gross sum, assuming that they should
receive £lO,OOO, and taking that to the credit of last
year, it was only a small balance. In reference to the
reserved rents it was a sum received from the Lancashire
and Yorkshire Railway Company, and a sum also received
from the George Hotel.

Mr. Gladstone said he saw that the tobacco warehouse
was set down at £6,292. Now in that particular
instance he believed there had been no change in the
rent of the tobacco warehouse for a number of years.
The corporation, he was informed, were bound to keep
the building in repair. It appeared to be a very exten-
sive building, and required a large amount of outlay, and
it appeared to him that the site of that warehouse was
one of the most valuable sites in Liverpool. It appeared
that the question had been under consideration, whether
they should continue in reference to this warehouse as at
present, and he would like to be informed whether
there had been any change or advance in the rent of the
building. That corporation had a very peculiar mode
of doing business, as when property sometimes ought to
advanced in rent, the corporation had been in the habit
of lowering them.
Mr. Stewart said, the warehouse had been leased to the
Government, and as prompted by. the Town-clerk, there
was, he said, eight years yet to expire. The Government
had now, in point of fact, sub-let it, but had offered it to
them to take the lease off their hands, and he confessed he
was one of those who considered that 0,000 was more
valuable paid_ by Government, th to.
give it into the
'hands of any one in trade, lad, thereforft, they did not
it advisable to take the lease off their hands. The

rent had been increased, and it was only fair to state, that
the Government gave a certain per tentage on the
outlay.
Mr. I
outlay ?
The Town-clerk : It is so
Mr. Beckwith said, he had been told, on very good
authority, that the person who rented the warehouse
was making from £B,OOO to £lO,OOO a year without
expending one shilling out of his own pocket.
Mr. Stewart said he could not see how £B,OOO or
.410,000 could be made out of the rent of a building.
If the person chose to become a warehouseman he took
upon himself as great a risk as any man in trade,
but he believed that the warehouse had been generally
employed as a store for tobacco, and he could not be con-

councillor, and that I should be guilty of a great derelic-
tion of duty, if I did not bring it before them.
The Mayor : You referred to a resolution which has no
reference to the matter before us.
Mr. Jeffery : 1 have a right to refer to it.
The Town-clerk : We have not received any communi-
cation about it.

Gladstone: Then the increase has been on the

The Mayor; The resolution to which you have
referred will not come before us this day.
Mr. Jeffery : Then it is not before the council. But I
was letting you know that the finance committee were
dealing with an imaginary surplus fund, when they did
not appear to know that there would be a deficit of £23,300.
This large item they had, in their ignorance, omitted in
their calculations, and I conceive that it was my duty,
being in possession of the facts, to make it known, and
it would have been a dereliction of duty on my part, if I
had not done so, . _ _

siderea more or less than a warehouse-keeper. He thought
it was one of those things which they should pass over.
It struck him that it was absurd to ask the Council to
legislate upon such-a question.
Mr. Jeffery said it was not a matter to be
passed over. If the , lease had. been offered
to be thrown up to the Corporation, and that they had
been obliged to expend so much money, and that it was
making £B,OOO, he thought it was worthy of their con-
sideration. He could not say much about it, as the
matter had come up before him unexpected, and for
which he was unprepared. The Chairman of the
Finantit Committee had said that the holder of this ware-
house was nothing but an ordinary warehouse-keeper,
but he (Mr. Jeffery) could not agree with him, as he
thought him an extraordinary warehouse-keeper. If
warehouse-keeping were so profitable, he should like to

376. Bramley-Moore said, he was of opinion. -that Mr.
Jeffery was not in order, at that time, but he had listened
to his observations with_ great attention, and, without

any opinion, he thought the motion was of im-
portance ; but, as the time would come when the matter
would properly come before them, he did not see the use
of going all through it, when it would have to be all gone
over with again.
Mr. Jeffery said, he did not see how he could be out

be a warehouse-keeper himself.
Mr. Stewart said he could not conceive how such a
matter could come to pass as that mentioned by Mr.
Beckwith.

Mr. Beckwith repeated what he had at first stated,
that he bad his information from one of the first tobacco
merchants in Liverpool.
Mr. Cooper thought it a most remarkable statement,
and he thought that Mr. Jeffery and every man in the
Council would not rest one moment till the matter would
be thoroughly investigated. He for one would not leave
the room till he knew what was the truth of the matter.

Mr. Jeffery: lam perfectly satisfied with that state-
ment.

Mr. Sheil moved, that the full details, relating to the
date of the lease, be brought before the Council at the
next meeting.
Mr. Jeffery seconded the motion.
The Mayor : Please put your motion in writing.
Mr. Sheil : Most certainly I will ; but Mr. Alderman
Cooper says I am not in order.
The Mayor : You are perfectly in order, as this is a
quarterly council.
Mr. Shiel : I was fullly aware I was, but I wished
to be sure, and when I heard it, I thought I had a right
to inquire, and be certain, taking the magnitude of the
worthy alderman who asked the question. (Laughter.)
Mr. Bennett said, while Mr. Sheil was drawing up the
resolution, he would tell them what he had heard regard-
ing the matter in question. - He had- just been out to
make inquiries; and had found that, about ten years ago,
the government leaSed these premises at a certain sum.
Some time after, they advertised the premises
to let. No Liverpool gentleman would take them
except the Government would confine the storing of
tobacco there exclusively. The Government would not
do this, and at length a gentleman from Dublin came
and took the warehouse; and it might not be to their
profit to take that warehouse into their own hands again.
Again, as regarded the extension, the interest paid on
the money expended was at the rate of 6 per cent.,
which was a very fair return. The Government were
very anxious at one time to get it off their hands, but
there was a great difficulty in obtaining a tenant
at all, and now that a tenant had come he was
a stranger. In his opinion it was just one of
these mare's nests which were brought before the Council
from time to time, taking up their valuable time, and
which, when spread over the country, spoke very badly
for that Council. It was preposterous to think that such
a statement as that, the person who now has them is
receiving a benefit of £lO,OOO.

Mr. .Mozley asked the date of the lease ?
The Town-clerk said it was for 21 years from 1856

Mr. Bennett said the lease had becii before the Council
for confirmation, ai in all other cases.
Mr. Mozley : There are seventeen years of it still to
expire. - . . . .

The May_or: Mr. Topping will explain the lease

Deputy Town-clerk :The lease in question contains a
power for the Customs to lease the property for 21 years,
and also to give it up at the end of ten years, by giving
six months' notice.

Mr. Stewart : That is most important.
Mr. Woodruff : So the whole affair has turned out a
"mare's nest." (Laughter.) . _ _

Mr. Sheil said,sunar the'cireumstances, and with that
explanation, he would withdraw his motion. _ _

Mr. Stewart : Sir, I have, as chairman of the finance
committee, given a cursory view of the public estimate of
the expenses of the Corporation for the ensuing year, and
it will now be my duty to move that the sum of £2,000
be voted to the Corporation schools, and other charitable
institutions.

Mr. J. R. Jeffery said, before that motion was put, he
begged to ask the chairman of the finance committee a
question, and that was, whether he had been in
communication with the chairman of the water com-
mittee, as to the deficiency that was likely
to accrue in the working of that committee
He said he had on a former occasion, in a conversation,
expressed his opinion that there would be a deficit in that
committee ; and he had calculated—of course it was only
a calculation—that that deficit would be £15,000, but
what was his regret to find, that at the meeting of that
committee, held on Monday last —he was sorry to state
the fact—that instead of the deficit being, as he had
calculated, £15,000, it had grown to the large sum of
£23,353, which would be the actual deficit. It was a
very large amount, and it must be made up. It might be
that the Finance Committee imagined, that as the
Water CoMmittee was under a separate Act of Parlia-
ment, that the Finance Committee of the Corporation
had nothing whatever to do with any such deficit, and
that it would not stop them from applying their
surplus as they thought proper. If the Chairman
should have formed that opinion, he (Mr. Jeffery)
would remind him that, although the money was received
under a separate Act of Parliament, the lease of the
Coporation Estate was held by the bondholders as a
collateral security, and therefore one of two things must
arise ; either the Finance Committee of the Corporation
must provide that necessary sum from the revenues of the
Corporation, or the Water Committee must apply for
powers to borrow the money, which they would have to
capitalize, and yearly pay interest upon it, until the
receipts balanced the expenditure. He hoped, however,
that neither of these courses would have to be adopted,
as it was a most suicidal course. But, he said, he had
gone to some pains to ascertain a proximate idea, when
the receipts would balance with the expenditure.
Of coarse it was only —it could only be an
estimated calculation, on either side and on each
side he had taken a liberal view. Mr. Jeffery explained
that it would take until the year 1870, ere they arrived
at that culminating point; and, if they paid 4 per cent.
on the money borrowed, the loss to the Council would be
£161,753. lie begged to call the attention of the
Council to that fact, and asked whether it was one that
the finance committee should deal with. In referring to
the taxation the liquidating such an amount would entail,
he said that the persons living outside the parlia-
mentary boundary would only have to contribute
a portion, and when, he said, that the amount
of 4d. in the pound might be applied for,
with the id. that was levied last year, it would be seen
that those persons living outside the Parliamentary
Borough, would only have to pay id. rate, while others
would have to pay 4'd. in the pound. This would be
manifestly unjust. Mr. Jeffery was then proceeding to
remark, that the only course that could be adopted would
be for the Council to carry the resolution he had moved in
the Water Committee on the previous Monday, to which
he should not be out of order in referring to —as
nothing—
Mr. Wm. Earle said, he rose to order. I wish to
know whether we are on the water committee, or the
other committee ?

The Mayor : On the other committee.
Mr. Jeffery : The other committee. Then I will
explain.
Mr. Earle : I did not ask you. I asked the Mayor.
You take up so much of the time of the council uselessly
by your long speeches about nothing, and when you are
quite out of order-
Mr. Jeffery : Then I tell you-
Mr. Earle : I have asked the Mayor, and he has
decided. I did not ask you.
Mr. Jeffery : Then I tell the Mayor, and through the
Mayor you,
morethat-
come before the proceedings of the waterproperly
The Mayor : I think your remarks Will
Committee.

_---
Mr. Jeffery : Sir, it is a subject of finance. Ido not
see that the water committee have more to do with it
than another.

The Mayor : I think so, and so does the Town-clerk.
Mr. Jeffery : If that is the opinion of the Mayor,
then I will bow to it, but I cannot see how it can effect
the water committee. It is a question of finance. The
corporation are about to deal with an estimated surplus
revenue, and I am pointing out to them that there is no
such surplus revenne, but that there' will be a deficit,
and I think I should not be performing my duty as a

of order.
The Mayor : You are out of order.

Mr. Jedery said, he was calling the attention of the
Council to an omission made by the finance committee.
He wished the Council to know the fact, and if he was
out of order—if he was not doing his duty as a member
of that Council, he did not know what he was doing,
and he paused fora reply. _ _ _

Mr. Stewart said, tlieie could be no doubt, hitt that
at present the subject was perfectly out of order; but
when the question did come before them in a proper
shape, it should have his best attention (hear, hear) ; but
if there was a deficit in the water committee, he had no
doubt but it would be met : but, as a greater proof that
Mr. Jeffery was out of order, he had even observed how
it was to be provided for. (Hear, hear.) When the
subject came before the finance committee, it would be
dealt with.

Mr. Pieton thought his friend Mr. Jeffery was not
strictly in order.

Mr: Hodson said, he very much regretted
that Mr. Jeffery should have made the an-
nouncement, that the water committee had a
deficit, although such was undoubtedly the fact,
but he had no hesitation in saying that the. water com—
mittee would .not call upon the finance committee to
liquidate it. (Hear, hear.)

.-Mr. Alderman Bennett contended that, under the cir-
cumstances, Mr. Jeffery was perfectly in order, and in
alluding to the deficit of £23,000 in the water committee,
he had only folloWed in the same course as Mr. Stewart
had done, when he had alluded to the letter that had
been received from government, which would entail a loss
of LlO,OOO, but he trusted, whatever might arise, that
they would continue to give the grants to the schools and
other charitable institutions in the town. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Jeffery said, if the Council were satisfied, after
hearing the statement he had made, he did not see any
advantage in pressing the matter further on them at

present.
Mr. Alderman Cooper thought they had every reason
to be satisfied, after the statement of the chairman of the
committee, that they were not likely to be troubled for

any deficiency

Mr. Ryleiasked, if there were a deficiency, how was it
to be made up—where was the money to come from? It
was all very fine to talk of the council not being troubled,
but it would be found very troublesome indeed to have to
pap £25,000 a year. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Gladstone contended that Mr. Jeffery was perfectly
justified in the course he had adopted. Mr. Jeffery per-
ceived that the council were about to vote away a sum of
money, which sum he considered was beyond their means
under present circumstances. He believed that the council
had a debt hanging over their heads, which they would
have to meet, and it therefore appeared to him prudent
to withhold spending the money proposed, until they had
distinctly. ascertained that they were authorised and
justified in doing so. If Mr. Jeffery had made such
a statement withont giving his reasons for it, the Council
would no doubt have demanded his reasons. Therefore,
however inconvenient and unpalatable the loss of time
might be to some gentlemen, he (Mr. Gladstone) believed,
that in the course he had taken, Mr. Jeffery was only
doing his duty. (Hear, hear.) The amount, however,
to be appropriated to the schools and charities would in
any case, even if Mr. Jeffery's statement should turn out
to be absolutely correct, have to be borne, and to be
provided for even out of a rate, if it should be needful.
(Hear, hear.) Education was one of the first
things to which they should give their
assistance, and
.he therefore thought that, so far
as that amount was concerned, the motion would be
allowed to pass. The amount for improvements might,
perhaps, be allowed to stand over.
Mr. Stewart said, the amount which he at present
moved, £2,000, would have to go to the schools in any
case.

The motion then passed.
Mr. Stewart moved the grants to the various charities,
which were also passed.
In moving the general proceedings of the committee,
Mr. Stewart remarked that the amount for public im-
provement was to provide for votes which had already
passed the Council. It did not, in fact, require a vote,
because the Council had already sanctioned the outlay.
Mr. Jeffery asked why the balance sheet had not been
produced, together with the finance statement ? At
the last Council meeting. he had called attention to
the omission of that document from the accounts
as presented at the close of the financial year.
He observed also that it did not appear now to be
the practice for the auditors, even the paid auditors, to
attach their signatures to that portion of the statement
which had hitherto—that was to say down to August, 1857
—been submitted to the Council. He wanted to know
from the chairman of the finance committee why the
balance sheet had not been presented to the Council,
together with the statement of the probable ineomc and
expenditure of the Corporation
Mr. Stewart said he had been many years a member of
the Council, and he was not aware that the finance com-
mittee had, upon the present occasion, departed from any
previous custom. He knew no reason at all why it should
be so, and he believed the committee had taken the usual

course

Mr. Topping (Deputy Town-clerk) said he believed
what Mr. Jeffery had stated was correct, and that previous
to the year 1857, there was such a document attached to
the annual accounts. Last year it was omitted, but he
did not know the reason why it was omitted, unless it
was because of Mr. Wright's account.
Mr. Jeffery : I thank you for that candid admission.
It was by the assistance of that balance-sheet that I dis-
covered the position of the Clerk of the Peace's account ;
and in the absence of it no gentleman of the Council, or
of the Finance Committee, could possibly become aware
of it. lam much obliged to you for the candid admis-
sion that it was withheld in consequence of that reason.
Mr. Jeffery finally moved that the Finance Com:nittee be
instructed to furnish, for the information of the Council,
at the next meeting, the balance-sheet, showing the assets
and liabilities of the corporate estate, as was the usual
practice previous to August, 1858 ; and further, that the
signatures of the auditors be in future attached to the
document on the final page instead of the previous page.
Mr. 133ckwith seconded the motion. _ _

Mr. Stewart hoped Mr. Jeffory would not press his
motion. He would take care to inquire into the reason
why such a document had not b3cn produced, and if ho
could find•no substantial reason assigned to the contrary,
it should be brougbt for Ward in future. _

Mr. Jeffery then consented to postpone his motion for

a month

- Mr. Alderman Parker drew attention to that part of
the proceedings which stated that the committee had
decided against having the Wellington testimonial placed
upon the site of the old Islington market, and moved that
that resolution be not confirmed, contending that it would
be a most ineligible position.

rise and regret that the testimonial was
Mr. Alderman Gardner seconded the motion, and
expressed his surp
to -be a column instead of a statue.
Mr. Alderman Bennett approved of the decision of the
committee, believing that the site, especially with all the
attractions going on around, would be quite unsuitable.
The effect, architecturally, of a lofty column placed near
St. George's
Hall, would be to dwarf the hall, and to
detract from its beauty.
Mr. Alderman Cooper also thought that the effect of a
tall column near St. George's Hall would be injurious to
that building. All the committee had done was to
recommend to the Wellington Testimonial Committee
several other sites for their consideration.
Mr. Steains said, if the gentlemen of the Testimonial
Committee would allow their funds to accumulate, at
compound' interest, until they could obtain an equestrian
statue, the committee would have no objection to the
proposed site.
Mr. Stewart hoped the council would not take this
question out of the hands of the committee, who could
arrange all the details in the most friendly manner
between themselves and the Testimonial Committee.t.
n.
Mr. Parker finally consented to withdraw the m
Mr. Hodson drew attention to a memorial
inhabitants of St. Anne's Ward, praying that
moved the clock of
from omth e
that
St. Anne's Church might be illuminated. I .
h and stated that the annual
the request be complied with ,
cost would be only £l7.
Mr. Cooper seconded the motion.
Several other gentlemen opposed the motion on the