The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-05-08 00:00:00

DOCK COMMITTEE.-YESTERDAY.

The weekly meeting of the committee was held at one
o'clock. Mr. Charles Turner presided, and the other mem_
bers present were Messrs. Rankin, Palmer,. Brocklebank,
Chaloner, Mandell, Bold, Clint, Holden, Hubback, Lockett,
G-ladstone, Rounthwaite, Littledale, Robinson, Holme,
Anderson, Barber, and Evans.
The tender of Messrs. Holme and Nichol' was accepted
for the erection of a dwelling house on the west quay of
the Clarence Graving Dock, and the offer of Mr. John
Macnallv for a number of sheet iron bowl scam.
The Harbour Masters' Committee produced a return of
the quantity of coal loaded into vessels from the high level
railway during the month ending the sth instant, being
269 tons in all. The committee requested authority to
prohibit flats from loading coals without sufficient protec-
tion to prevent coals from falling into the dock.
Mr. Holme said the coal proprietors would not use the
high level railway unless the Dock Committee and the
railway company agreed upon a fixed rate at which coals
could be pus on board the vessel. There was so little
difference between bringing the coals by rail and by the
canal, that proprietors could not be induced to make use
of the high level way, although so many of them had stated
in that room that they were most anxious to do so. It
would thererore have to come before the Warehouse C )m-
-mittee, to tab into coLsideration what the fixed rate
should be, for he had no doubt that until same definite rata
could b,e quoted, the high level would not be generally
use/

Mr Lockett said at present no charge was made, and
yet they had no use made of it.
Mr. Holme said coal proprietors did not know how soon
a rate might be charged, or what it would he.
The Chairman suggested that the railway company
should consider the subject, and make a definite proposi-
tion to the committee, stating wliat amount they would
charge for putting coals on hoard the vessels. The Dock
Committee could then-decide whether they could afford to
accept the proposal,
Mr. Holme said he would lay the subject before the
directors of the railway company.
The authority requested by the harbDur master's com-
mitre was gran. ed.

The following letter from. the Rev. Mr. Glover was
read :

Thee evil of the Mersey navigation is. it 'appears, a large
reds, of, at any rate, a vast spread, of shifting sand, which
h adversely affected, navigation-wise, by every storm that
agitatesthe waters ; the effect of which is, as the result of
every great d:s urbane?, of the waters, a bodily movement
of masses of the sand, which changes the channels and
necessitates a constant sounding. and threatens- also to
rinse ep the navigation altogether. Now, as the evils,that
exist arise from the quantity of the sand that travels, if
that sand could be fixed that class of evils would be, abated ;
aid as the means taken to fix these sands would be a
machine (i. e., would constitute a machine) that would
enti-ap the dicty water and pass it, out clear, every tide
Would go to abate somewhat the quantity of sand which
would lie outside of the work in question, and that would
go also towards filling up the space to be enclosed by this
vast sand-trap. The writer of this paper dues not presume
to say where—that is, in what direction—the navigation
channels of the Mcraey and Dee should be left open ;
neither the exact shape ,of _thee work, which he- proposeree
should be laid down ; that is a point to be determined by
those who know the peculiar wants of this navigation, the
prevailing tendencies of wind, current, drifts, &c., either
to be rendered available or to ba abated. These things—
that is, channels and shape of work—can only be deter-
mined by the local knowledge of those who are used to the
rivers, or by taking into consideration all the information
which: they can °eve. When the authorities have deter-
mined " the where." and give the word as to the when,"
the rest will be accomplished as rapidly as they choose,
*viz, an enclosure of any extent of area of the Dee and
Mersey estuary. Mr. Glover does not offer his advice as a
naturalist—not at all. He ventures not to dictate to the
conservancy that they should do this, or that, or anything.
He ;:e told that a trouble exists, viz., a mass of 36 squire
miles of goieksand. He knows how to fix that, to give it
certain limits within which to lie, and to depesis more there
as certainly as a carter shoots rubbish into a hole. He
knows also that ley aecsmulating 36 square miles of send
of—feet depth in a certain spot, that that accumulation
will reduce the quantity in other parts of the river, and
perhaps ultimately exhaust it. The river must be in
a worse state than it was when—that is, before—
the land lying between the Mersey and the Dee was re-
duced to " floating solidity" in the estuary. That solid
quantity has not diminished one foot in bulk since the time
it was terra firma. It is still, every atom of it, in the
Mersey, increased also by the alluvials from the land and
the dirt of the in-rolling sea water from that time to the
MAPLE o; -Tvats • .c
,loured water of the ebb will
go along in full dirt until it meets the action of the returning
flow; and the consopetee i', not the formation of bar
(which is produced by an entirely different cause), bat the
certain gradual deterioration ef the river, inch by ineb, foot
by foot, of the progress of the flow, the action being more
or less local and mischievous as the relative force of the
streams in opposition happen to be. The meeting of the
two streams, at every spot, is an eddy ; an eddy causes
deposit, and this deposit is laid often as regularly as a coat
of paint over a board ; and the monthly, yearly accumula-
tion of these daily lamina! deposits is the deterioration to
which every tidal river on the earth is subject, namely, the
steady, constant, eternal abatement of the s undings. It
happens fortunately, in this particular case, that you may
help yourselves, the considerable estuary affording you the
opportunity of making such a sink (so to call i,) to gather
this floating mischief as will at once be the reducing of your
present great practical evil, and the absorbent of the grow-
ing ones for possibly a century or two, or three. For you
may be assured of this, th it however vast in area you may
determine to make your sand-trap, in time it will be a
Newfoundland. And so soon as this conviction seizes
your mind to a certainty realisable hereafter, then let that
conviction re-set, as it ought, and imagine the mischief
that would result to your river and the navigation, if that
mass of thirty--,ix square miles of matter were suddenly
resolvable into its course. If, then, anybody desires to
know what the present disease of the river is, that's it. As
the plan here suggested would, were it carried out, make
the port of Liverpool much more approach Ible by an
enemy than now it is, it is as well to mention that the
proposed work would afford the site and position of a line
of guns the fire of any thirty of which could at any moment
be concentrated on any vessel which might venture upon
running the gauntlet.
The Chairman said Mr. Glover had been introduced to
Mr. Hartley by Mr. Gladstone for the purpose of enabling
him to state his views, but as he had addre'sed his com-
munication to the Dock Committee, Mr. Hartley, without
opening it, bad forwarded it to the committee.
Mr. Mandell observed that most of the points were
answered in Mr. Denbain's recent work.

The letter was referred to the Marine Committee with
the assistance of the marine surveyor and Mr. Hartley.
The following letter was read from Messrs. Bibby, Sons,
and Co.:—

Liverpool, 6th May, 1857.
TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE LIVERPOOL DOCK COMMITTEE

Sir,—On the 10 h December last vveharted—Yon;
letter from the principal receivers of Mediterranean pro-
duce, strongly commenting on the excessive charges to
which they are exposed in the Stanley dock warehouses—
in many casts 80 to 100 per cent more than would be
incurred for similar work done in any of the transit sheds
at the open docks. We regret that this communication
shooldsot have induced you long ago to take some effectual
steps to remedy the aril complained of, and which there
is no doubt could be accomplished with perfect ease and
satisfaction. to all parties. It is, therefore, with reluctance
we are again compelled to lay before you further com-
plaints from the consignees of above 4,500 boxes of oranges,
per eteauter Danube, from Palermo, who state that beside
being subjected to the increased charges before mentioned,
the delivery of their fruit has been delayed so long that
its quality has been seriously deteriorated, and its sale
prejudiced to an extent of eighteenpence to two shillings
per box at least. Such estate of things is intolerable, aril
imperatively calls for some speedy and effectual remedy. The
imports of oranges and lemens alonehy, the Mediterranean
steamers this season have• been.l2o,ooo boxes, against
43,400 in 1856, 30,650 in .1855, 18,150 in 1854, 15:750 in
1853„'14,950 in 1853, when the communication was chiefly
dependent on sailing vessels ; and this example of, the
enormous increase of business consequen ton the introduction
of steam power might be applied with equal justice to
numerous other articles of general import. With these
facts before you, surely you must see it to be the interest of
the port. to adopt a more liberal and enlightened policy.
Nor is the shipowner exempted from those hardens which
press so heavily upon importers ; for by the enclosed memo-
randem and vouchers you will find that the Stanley Dock
rate for. discharging is from 50 to 60 per cent higher
than paid by ns in the open duds, whilst the detention
of several recent vessels has been double whet it would
have been could we have got a berth elsewhere. An
easy remedy might certainly be applied, by avoiding the
Stanley Dock altogether ; but the delay and uncer-
tainty of obtaining a berth in any 'of- the open decks are
such that, in nine cases out of ten, it would amount to a
virtual annihilation of the trade to attempt it. Net only
have we to contend with the complaints anddisatisfaction
of importers, but we also find ?urzelvee suceeinfully opposed
by etbees in the trade, who enjoy those necessary and very
properfacilities for which we, with at least equal claim,
have hitherto :so vainly applied. The result of this, if
allevred to continue, may easily be foreseen ; and we do
most earnestly appeal to you, as guardians of the impor-
tant interests of this extensive port, to place us in a more
satisfactory position ; otherwise you will inevitably drive

sway trade to those places where the facilities and con-
veniences for despatch, so essential to a line of steamers,
are eagerly volunteered. Tbc trade of Southampton, you
are well aware, is of late rapidly increasing. Scarcely a
week passes without our having instructions from one or
other of our friends in Manchester, Birmingham, and else-
where to forward their 'goods on to that Port for shipment,
rather than wait, even the shortest period, for a Liverpool.
steamer.; and you surely can no longer view with indiffer
enee a prosperity based upon the commerce diverted by
a combination of dock and railway interests from a port
enjoying so many natural ae:vantages as Liverpool. It
has been stated in your Gomel; tee that, though thegreatest
deficiency of accommodatioa is universally admitted, the
legidotare have unhappily sem fit to curtail your bor-
rowing powers, and that you have no fortis arailabie
for current requirements, if this really be the case, we
are ourselves prepared to advance whatever sum is required
for the necessary erections (as name 1 in our letter of
December last, to which we again respectfully refer), or
we are quite willing to pay any reasonable charge you
may think proper for such additional accommodation
as may be afforded. In the hope that this matter will
receive from you, without further delay, that careful and
early cowideration which the important revenue involved
and the onward prosperity of the port so urgently demand,
we remain, sir, your very obedient servants,
Jot-ix Binnr, SoNs, & Co.

The Ch .irman remarked that the case of the Danube
was rather a singular case. All the berths being filled up
when she came.

Mr. Brocklebank said the writers also complained of
having berths appropriated there to other steam. companies
in the Mediteranean trade,

Mr. Locke; slid the committee must have seen in the
daily japers the discussions which had been going on
The grev-mce princip fly complained of wa3 this, and no
doubt it was a grievance. Messrs. Mblver ha I a vessel
called the Taurus berthed there. The Danube arrived
on the Tuesday or Wednesday ; the Taurus did not arrive
until the Friday, and, neverthelese, she was enabled to
discharge first. He was quite sure the harbour master's
committee were doing all in their power to give what ac-
commodation was possible.
The Cha rman said the members were all aware that
Messrs. Cunard and Co. bad a very enormous trade, and,
upon that account they applied fur and got the whole of
the west side of the Huskisson Dock appropriated to
'heir steamers. He was satisfied that in granting this, the
Dock Commit'ee took a very wise course, both as regarded
the accommodation of the trade of the port,-and also the
dock estate. In fact, the two things went together. He
had no doubt that if they were to prevent Messrs. Cunard
and company from having that advantage, and to make
them work without appropriated berths, a great deal
more space and more time would be occupied than at pre-
sent. There would be no economy in taking away from
Messrs. M'lver anct Company that side of the dock, nor
did he think it would be possible to work the dock
estate properly without appropriated berths. (Hear,
bear.)

Mr. Hubback said the whole subject reso'ved itself into
the question of appropriated berths, and that question the
Harbour Masters' Committee mnst grapple with. To
him it only appPared to be equitable that w•th limited
accommodation all parties should share and share alike.
There was no other principle upon which the-estate could
be worked in the present condition of its accommodation,
and that question the Harbour Masters' Committee must
take up. If they did not take it up manfully and honestly
it would be a question for the General Committee.
The Chairman remin•'ed the meeting that it was not
very long since the committee did consider the question
fully, and came to the conclusion that it would not be
desirable to do away with the appropriated berths. After
hearing everything which could be s.►id, they came to the
conclusion that ii would not be possible to carry on the
trade of the port without having some appropriated
berths.

Mr. },Tubback said, the trade had very much increased
within the last year and a half.
Mr. Lockett assured the meeting that the Harbour
Masters' Committee bad manfully and honestly used
their best endeavours to give all the accommodation they
possibly could. Although the steam trade had ben
growing very mightily, and would grow, the committee
had been stopped by want of in,ana from making the
accommodation which the steam trade required. He was
willing not to have appropriated berths at all,although he
believed they were for the benefit of the dock estate. He
admitted that parties who had n..it got apprcpriated
berth?, as Messrs, M'lver had, were not placed upon the
same footing.
Mr. Gladstone said that -the writers of the letter wanted
to receive ace mmodation, to which from the extent of
their trade he thoughtthnizareijeatit.led. He believed
Mr. Lockett said they had three berths there. They
had the whole north side of the Nelson Dock.

Mr. Barber said the question would come to a revision of
the rates. He contended that if all the shipping of the
port could be transformed into steamers, it would not pay
for proper accommodation at the present rates. He did
not think steamers slr)nld complain so much of the charges
in the Stanley-dock, when they had the option of going
into any other dock. Fruit was an article which brought
little or no revenue to the warehouses.
Mr. Robinson said the warehouse committee were con-
sidering whether they could make an alteration in the
charges on fruit.
Tt e Chairman said Messrs Bibby were quite wrong in
supposing thst the committee were indifferent to that or
any other subject affecting the trade of the port. (Hear.)
They were doing the utmost they could to remedy the
insufficiency of the dock accommodation, which, until they
got further power from parliament they could not supply.
Mr. Lockett remarked that a statement was made in
one of the daily papers—he did not know upon what
authority—that such complaints were not attended to by
the committee.

The Chairman said if the geotTernen who made those
statements were present at the numerous discussions
which took place in the committee, they would rind that
such accusations were quite unjust.
The letter was then referred to the Harbour Masters'
and Warehouse Committees.
Mr. Hubbock stated that he had received a letter from
a gentleman, which he should hand to the chairman of
the Harbour Master's Committee, upon a suhjact of some
delicacy. Ha would not read tha name of tho writer
there, but, the letter stated that it was the almost
universal practice of masters of coasting vessels to
give fees of five shillings to dock gatemen in order to
obtain berths.

Mr. L,ckett : Will the gentleman come forward and
suts,antiate any one case ?

Mr. Hubbacli : He will

The Chairman : I am very glad that we have got a gen-
tleman who will substantiate what he states. The matter
has been complained of over and over again, but when it
came to pro: f, the parties making the charge generally
shrank from it.

Mr. Mondell: We accept the gentleman's challenge.
(Hear, hear.)
The letter was referred to the Harbmr Masters' Com-
mittee.

The finance sub committee produced an altered schedule
of charges upon cast and pig iron, recommended in con-
sequence of the recent decision in the county court, in the
case of Falkner v. the Dock Trustees. The altered
schedule was adopted by the committee, and will appaar
in our advertising columns.
The following appointments were made in the treasurer's
office, consequent upon the death of Mr. Mackay—Mr.
Jackson to fill the place of Mr. Mackay, Mr. Savage to fill
the place of Mr. Jackson, Mr. Bradshaw to succeed Mr.
Savage, and Mr. Haughton to succeed Mr. Bradshaw.
This closed the general business