Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-22 00:00:00

1. To collect information as to existing (local) social evils and
their fit remedies, and the available means and best methods of
applying such remedies.
2. To afford a centre of communication to which such information
may be imparted, and from which it may be drawn
3. To provide a medium through which means of social reform,
suggested by the experience of other localities, may be published
and made available in this ; and
4. To afford, annually, an opportunity of considering, as far as
may be in the presence of the parties immediately concerned, such
portions of the information thus obtained as it may be exp,-,dient to
impart to the association at large at its next annual gathering.
Now the advantages likely to arise from the formation of
the local committee must be manifest. (Hear, hear.) The
interest so freely elicited at the meeting of October last will
be kept alive ; and I think it will be admitted that there
can be no better field for the work of social reform than is
afforded by Liverpool and the surrounding district. (Hear,
hear.) I, therefore, venture to express a hope that the
local committee will prove not only a great
benefit to this district but will by that means
lend a valuable aid in strengthening the hands
of the parent society, (Hear, hear.) The work
to be done is of very great importance. It is one of those
true and substantial reforms about which there can be no
difference or collision of opinion. There is a saying whici
will be familiar to most of you, that th

man is the

greatest benefactor to his country who succeeds in making
two blades of grass to grow where only one grew before.
I believe that man no less a benefactor to his country who
succeeds in enlightening the ignorant and reclaiming the
vicious. (Hear, hear) This is part of the great work of
social reform ; but while it aims at this objeet, it does not
ignore all others. Those who take an interest in agricul-
tural subjects well know that in many parts of the country
the two blades of grass have been made to grow where only
the one grew before. How has that been done ? By the
efforts made by agricultural associations, by obtaining
facts from various districts, distributing these facts
to other districts, and thereby stimulating the action
of development and knowledge, which have brought
forth, in this field, such abundant fruits. (Hear,
hear.) To my mind, there is a very striking analogy
and associations for the promotion of social science. The
object of the one is to improve the material, the other the
moral world. Having taken a great interest all my life in
agricultural matters, I have had various opportunities of
watching the progress of the leading associations connected
with agricultural science, and I have observed that success
in the pursuits of agriculture has always followed where
such associations have been established. (Hear, hear.) I
refer more especially to the two great societies of this
kingdom—the Royal Agricultural Society of England, and
the Highland Society of Scotland. I believe every one
knows that, taking its climate and soil into consideration,
agriculture is farther advanced in Scotland than anywhere
else ; and wherever local societies have been formed, there
you will find agriculture farther advanced than in the
surrounding districts which have not enjoyed such an
advantage. (Hear, hear.) From the success which
has followed the exertions of associations formed
for. the promotion and improvement of agriculture, I may
venture to express my firm belief that a similar success will
attend the efforts of societies established for the promotion
of social science, and I am quite sure that when the labourer
puts his hand to the plough, and manfully keeps it there,
he will in due time succeed in breaking up and reclaiming
the social and moral wastes which surround us (hear, hear).
This allusion to agricultural associations may be considered
out of place here, but in referring to the proofs of success
. _

their labours have everywhere given, I wish simply to
encourage the members of the local committee of the
National Association for the Promotion of SoCial Science in
the work which they have in hands. lam confident that
even up to the present period, our labours have not been
in vain, and I am sure that in due time we shall reap if we
faint not (hear, hear, and applause). I have nothing
further to say, except to call on the Rev. Mr. Howson to
address you on the subject of education (applause).
The item. J. S. Howson, on rising, was loudly applauded.
lie said: Mr. Chairman, in addressing a few words to this
meeting upon the subject of education, I conceive that my
business is not so much to express opinions as to do my best
to clear the way for enquiry. I have indeed very strong
and firm opinions upon many points connected with CI
subject of education, but I do not think that this is th
plac

them, Our committee is essentially a
nquiry; and I apprehend that we are not
together here for the simple practical object of organising

and promoting investigation,

it for t

I think I am boun

ascertaining of these facts may lead to ti
acknowledged and recognised evils
explain, in a few words, that the subj

_
appears before this meeting in two points of view

who have read the ad(

'or the Promotion of S

issued

ial Science, will have et

that education forms, of course, a prominent part of it ; but
those who have received certain papers which I have
taken the liberty to circulate, will observe in those papers
anallusion to the education commission which was
appointed at the instance of Sir John Pakington, and over
which the Duke of Newcastle presided. The history of the
allusion to that commission is briefly' as 'follows.: I happen

in the work of education,

tions upon the subjec

receive

villimrl

y to give to the t

have had N

of an official communication was ihu

tor the promotion of
rred to ►ne that

m mitt(
and it o

would b

absolutely idenuca
place,
the n

a litf
r gait

nec,,oct

us cony

.on toot

newspapers

slon is pert

which are also to

Social Scion(

Ismall in others? What effects have you observed to follow from
the withdrawal of the children of the poor from the immediate
notice of the wealthy, through separation of residence ? What
educational and social results follow from the juxtaposition and
rivalry of good schools ? How great a distance have you noticed
that parents will send their ohildren to a school which they pre-
fer? How far are all thesepoints affected bythe occupations and
habits of the parent? How far by religious considerations?
IV. ScROM PAYMENTS.—What facts have come before your notice,
which lead you to think that the fees in particular classes of
schools are too high, or too low, or too variable ? How far have
you observed that this point is affected by the employment or
migration of parents, or the peculiarities of special districts?
What do you conceive the operation would be of a local rate for
the establishment of free schools, or of a rate in aid of schools
partially supported by fees ?
V. KIND AND DEGREE OF EDUCATION.—What light can you throw
upon the following points,—the early age of leaving school,—the
average time of a child's remaining at school,—the causes and
effects of irregular attendance, and of frequent moving from
school to school? What provision are you aware of forindustrial
training, and especially for making girls familiar with household
occupations? What efforts can you mention for watching over
boys and girls immediately after leaving school ? What provision
for the continuance of education by evening schools or otherwise ?
Can you give any information regarding prize schemes, or indirect
encouragement given to education by employers of labour?
VI. Punt TEACHERS.—What kind of character do you observe to
be usually formed in pupil teachers, as to steadiness, devotion to
their work, respect to superiors, &c.? gaily of them ultimately
go to other. employments. How far do you consider this a loss or
a gain to the country?
I may state that I have endeavoured to circulate the papers
of the Government, in• conjunction with our own social
science documents, as widely and impartially as my present
information enabled me to do ; and I have taken some pains
to ascertain the names and addresses of those who are really
interested in popular education, and practically acquainted
with it. I have not yet sent papers even to all whose names
I have got, because many addresses only came into' me yes-
terday; but I mention the fact now, in order that any per-
sons now in theroom may be so kind as to favour me with
the addresses of persons into whose hands they think it de-
sirable that papers should come, and I will make it my duty
to transmit them accordingly. The committee would be
especially glad to receive communications from persons who
are well acquainted with schools which have no connection
with the Church of England or with the Privy Council; for
these are just the two fields of enquiry upon which
we are most at fault. In many instances,
answers have been sent in, and I hair
doubt that they will come in gradually,
by one. I hope that those who have received papei
will not suppose that it was intended all the answers should
be sent in before the present meeting. This is in fact
merely the first meeting ; and we hope that the discussion
here to-day will make it more easy to those who have
received circulars- to answer the queries put in them, than
it would have been before. I trust, therefore, that no one-
will abstain from sending answers to- the papers, simply
because he was not able to do so before-the present meeting.
Having made these few preliminary explanations I think.
the best course I can adopt is as briefly as possible to follow
the succession of topics mentioned in the circular, and
which are the same as those which appeared in the
educational section of the Social Science Conference_
The first enquiry relates to the effects and the results
of the present Privy Council system. So far as I can see,
everybody approves of the present system of the Privy
Council upon the subject of education. All the papers I
have received express an approval of it, with some reserva-
tions. One gentleman writes, that the present system is so
good,, that if it were only extended to the whole population,
the thing is done. I wish that gentleman were here to
explain how that could be done, for the system is biped
1 upon the great principle of helping those who help them-
selves ; and if we could only learn how to help those who
either cannot for will not help themselves, I fancy we
should have no need for any further investigation. (Cheers.)
I fancy that is just the point where our difficulty lies. I be-
lieve I am not very far wrong when I say, that about three
millions of children in this country do not go to school at all.
Possibly I am a little over-stating the number, but I think
not much ; and, I believe, I am equally correct in saying
that, there are about two millions of ,those absent from the
school of whose absence no reasonable account can be given.
This is, indeed, a grievous state of things ; and if we could
only see how education could be extended to those children,
our work so far would be done. (Rear, hear.) I spoke of
certain reservations which I found to appear in the papers
we have received. Many people think the restrictions of the
Privy Council are too narrow. This appears to be a very
common opinion. For instance, in the north-west of
England, all the people live in houses which are flagged,
and for a long time the Privy Council would not allow
its aid to any school which was not boarded. This
was surely a very unnecessary restriction in the case of a
population who lived on flagged floors from their birth to
their death. I knew of one case where a school was
boarded at very great expense, and the minutes of the
council were shortly afterwards altered and the privileges of
the Government extended to schools which were flagged.
This of course does not apply to this neighbourhood. One
complaint in this town is, that help is not given, unless where
thr• sit, is froohnlrl • anti I Irrinso• of evrtn noact ir. wilic•ll tharo

copious

are practical difficulties about the tenure of the ground upon
which the school stands. It is not a freehold, and it would
be extremely difficult tozmake it a freehold, and, therefore,
the school' is without the benefit of the . Government
Inspector and the grant. A serious doubt exists, also,
as to the capitation grant. The capitation grant,
I imagine, was meant to meet the wants of the schools of the
poorer kind, but practically the largest amount of it appears
to go to schools of the richer kind ; and there is 'a good
deal of doubt groWing up .in people's minds as to whether
the whole system is not rather working upwards into a class
very well able to educate itself,' and not giving the assistance
which ought to be given to those who are the poorest.
(Hear, hear.) If this state of things be going on, it is a
very serious question, and a very proper subject, for the dis-
cussion of the advocates of social. science. I can mention
the case of two schools, not very far from one another—one
school is educating the children of persons receiving a very
good income, whilst the other, not very far off, but in a very
poor district, has great difficulty in carrying on the work of
education at all. If such cases be frequent, it becomes a
very serious subject. Even if the Privy Council system has
been thoroughly good so far, it does not' follow that it may
not halie done what it was destined for, up to this point, and
may not now be modified in some respects with advantage.
It does not follow, because it is a thoroughly good thing,
that, therefore, it may not be improved now: .Upon the
subject of normal colleges, training colleges, Queen's col-
leges, &c., the commissioners are very desirous to have light
thrown in. On this point I should wish to point to a kind
of
.debateable ground upon which we want a great deal of
information. It is the debateable ground between the
really poor school of the better class, and the school for the
lower part of the middle class ; between the really recog-
nised objects of Government help, and that class which we
recognise as ,composed.of persons who are willing, and ought
to be willing, to support themselves, and to educate their
children. Where is the precise line to be drawn ?- It is Li
question for investigation whether the line is practicall)
(1-.ra.wn, as it ought to be, by the operations of the Govern-
ment system ; and we are very desirous to have all light
which, can be. thrown upon that important part of out
school system. Another debateable ground, on which a,
the recent social science meeting it was agreed that inquiry
might be pursued with-advantage, is this, that between the
poor school for honest children, and the criminal school fol
criminal children. (Hear, hear.) There is a good (lc
which requires to be- looked into here ;

.ely to ,pi

'ernment are

bE

fear, hear

We ,d(

Comicil

)ols under the Privy Council, welt' ave abundant sours
information. We have the annual blue books, t

s of council_— some of the most important contri
to educational literature which the world has s 4

hecrs.) But the schools thus embraced are very far from
ing the whole of the schools of the country for the poor.
se last census, states that two-thirds of the schools are
-- Erected with the Privy Council. low are we to get
nation regarding these schools ? What organisation
`y means of which we can really know such facts
What nu- mbers attend them ? A t what average
What amount of regularity is there
What are they taught, how are they
ascertaining

ave we

do they come

We have no organisation for
with regard to these schools, as we have for
under the Privy Council. I hope that
..try organisation will do a great deal in that dir
it cannot be done except by a good deal of
ieration and patient work. I beg, therefore, to offer
estions as to how we are to ascertain in any area which

hearty

may be defined in this town, the facts with regard to volun-
tary and other day schools. Very often, I believe, such
sAools are preferred to those under the privy council.
Whether they are preferred because the education given
thcro is better, is a matter which may be considered doubt-
ful ; but, very often, we find that parents send their children
to thee schools in preference: Upon that subject there is

led inquiry, first as • to the t
There is a farther nuestic

reason

)n °immense importance,
We often hear that, in a
town, there are so many ehildren,and so many
d, it is supposed that, by putting one against the

hen as to t 1

which is very often lost sight of
certain I

other, we have the amount of school accommo-
dation provided for the children. But a. question
of immense importance to be first ascertained
is where the schools are placed. (Hear, hear.)
In towns like this, extending several miles from one end to
the other, it is not at all a sufficient answer to say that there
is a certain amount of school accommodation, unless it be in the
right place for the children, (Hear, hear.) Then again as
to the actual school accommodation, the amount, I believe,
about ten years of age, was stated, upon good authority,
to be of schools under inspection, sufficient for 900,000
children, of whom there were only 600,000 who attended.
That is to say there was accommodation for 300,000 children,

who did not attend. The position of schools is a subject
which requires very careful attention In this town we
often find an immense number of schools within a few yards
of each other; and in another spot a very numerous popu-
lation very scantily supplied with schools. A very important
subject for consideration is, as to the effects of this—
what are the results which follow from the town
being glutted with schools in some quarters
and literally starved in others. With that comes another
very important" Subjecf,-as- an additional aspect of the ques-
tion, namely, the seperation of the rich from the poor: The
rich travel out from the neighbourhood of the pbor more
and more, and the social results which follow from this fact
are of the most serious kind. lam only concerned now for
the educational results; but I believe it may be said with
truth, that great difficulty is experienced here from the fact,
that the need is the sorest exactly where the help is the
smallest, and that help is most abundant precisely where it is
least required. (Hear, hear.) It would be surely accom-
plishing a very great work, worthy of the most earnest care
of the education committee of the Social Science Association,
if some remedy could be devised far that state of things.
With regard to the question of school payments, I shall not
trouble you with many remarks. The result of the papers which
have come into my hands upon that subject seems to be-that
the general opinion is in favour of having at least a partial
payment made for the schooling. The kind and degree of
education, which is the fifth topic in the circular, invite me
to, trouble you with a few remarks. The early age at
which children leave the schools, is a subject which, has
been much investigated, and only with the result, so far,
that it seems to be an evil very difficult to remedy. A,
meeting was held fa London, last year, over which Prince
Albert presided, at which, I suppose, all the light was
thrown upon the sub'iect that could well be dote. It does
not appear to have been thought that we could interfere,
except indirectly, with the mercantile necessities which
cause children to leave schools at suck a very early age.
So far as- the evil exists from careless habits upon the part
Of the parents, migratory life, and wont of parental autho-
rity—which lies a good deal at the root of the-
may hope that, in these respects, some remedy will be gradu-
ally applied by the process of educationrand other measures.
(Hear, hear.) But leaving that general topic, I would
first ask the attention of the meeting, especially- to two
subjects. One is the industrial training of children,
especially of girls. This latter seems to, be recognised as
one of our most urgent wants, and if that want were sup-
plied, we should find that the children would come- more
punctually and remain longer. (Hear, hear.) I speak
especially of girls. I believer in this town it is a fact that
girls stay longer at school than boys, and besides, I appre-
hend it is easier to give an industrial training to girls than
to boys. It does not at all follow that the occupations for
which girls are designed, may not in a great measure be
made familiar to them at school. Plain needlework for
instance—there seems to be a growing opinion that it
would be well' if more attention were paid to that subject.
I do not say that less attention should be paid to intel-
lectual branches of education, but that more should be paid
to these' industrial pursuits. A. lady has suggested to me
that it would be a good thing if they could be taught at
school to mend as well as to make, to darn, th. A subject
well worth considering, too, was how much could be,
done for the training of girls in cookery, by- founding an
additional institution. (Hear, hear.) In London there is a
school for training in cookery, in the Regent's Park, which
I believe is succeeding very well. There is a similar school
in a country district of Cheshire, which I believe is also
succeeding very well. I doubt, whether there can be any
good reasons given why we should not have something Of
the sort organised in Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) And,bthe
point connected with the fifth topic is the subject of evening
schools. A feeling seems to be growing up in the country
that the one great work to be done now is the work of adult
education—the continuance of education after school years,
and even in mature age. (Hear, hear.) It would be a very
great advantage if we could learn the real facts regarding
evening schools in Liverpool—what evening schools there
are, how they are managed, and what their success has been.
There is a great want of organisation upon that subject ; and,
in fact, we are only beginning an experiment about which we
are sanguine, but regarding which very little fruits have been
hitherto shewn. I hope we shall have some light thrown
upon it by these investigations. Now, lastly, may I say
one or two words in reference to pupil teachers ? There is
a question asked in the circular with regard to the characters
of pupil teachers, and the answers' which have reached me
seem to give a 'very favourable impression upon the whole,
as to their modesty, propriety, diligence, and all the quali
ties which we should look for in young persons invested
with responsibility. Especially this seems to be the case
with 'the girls. The question of payments is touched in
several of-the communications, but as some say the payments
are too high, and some they are too low, we are evidently
only in a condition to make further inquiries. One sugges-
tion is that it would be desirable to make a more marked
alfforonoo botwocu tho pol-mcnt of boys btutL the pay-
ment of girls. At present, I believe, they are the same,
and one who has had very great experience on these
questions suggests that it would be a very great improve-
ment if the payment of the boys were made more. Some
doubt also exists as to whether the number of pupil teachers
is right. Doubt has been expressed on this point, because
a very large number of pupil teachers go to other employ-
ments. But, in the first place, it must be remembered, that
until they do so we have had their work in the schools at
a very cheap rate ; and, in the second place, I think it is very
doubtful whether a great benefit is not done to the country,
by sending into railway offices, into shops, and into various
mercantile employments, a number of young persons who
have learned 'punctual habits, and especially the habits of
working for others. (Hear, hear.) I ventured to mention
Sunday schools in the circular. The government, papers do
not lay quite so much stress upon that subject as we have
done. It is not for me to criticise the government
papers, but I can say that the commissioner
will be very glad to hear from you anything
you may be good enough to state with regard to
Sunday-schools. In many points of view Sunday-schools
are of great importance. The Sunday-school supplies one
of the few links for continuing the infinence of education
of a beneficial kind, after the weekly school has been left.
Then, with regard to infant-schools, the subject is one
which invites careful attention on the part of all who have
au interest in the promotion of social science. Ths question
at once arises: Do children who attend the infant-schools
behave better in the day-schools, and do they. generally stay
longer ? Most." persons who have communicated with me
say "yes." (Hear, hear.) These are to us very strong
arguments for taking great pains with infant-schools. One
,is, that at the infant-school the attendance is for a longer
time, and is less interrupted, and you have, therefore, a
greater opportunity afforded for the formation of character.
The question of how families are affected, family affections
and family union, by these schools, invites inquiry. One of
our friends, a person of very great experience, says, that the
infant school is a double mercy—a mercy to the mother and
a mercy to the child. (Hear, hear.) He says, it does not
separate the affections of mother and child ; but that, on the
contrary, the child does not hinder the mother's work, and
is greeted with all the more affection when the work is done ;
so that the infant school, instead of being the enemy, is the
friend of domestic union. (Hear, hear, and applause.)
Now, I have only to say, that I hope we shall find great
benefit in Liverpool from having our inauiries localised.

I believe we shall do good to other places by localising our
inquiries here, and I certainly hope that we shall do good
(Hear, hear.) As regards education, it cer-
tainly is a very proper object of ambition that Liverpool
should not only he the most enterprising commercial town
in England —not only the most closely associated with all
foreign interests, and the best known in every sea, but that
she should be also the most energetic and the most
successful in the work of education. (Hear, hear, and

ourselv

ltev. 11ir. Carter being called on by the chairman to speak
on the subject of crime said, that ho thought it would be
better to give an opportunity for some observations being
made on the suggestions thrown out by Mr: Howson.
He did not intend to make and lengthened remarks
with regard to the schools for criminal children,
and for non-criminal children, the latter meaning,
he supposed, those who were dangerously destitute
but not absolutely criminal, and inasmuch as they were not
criminals, the law did not take hold of them, and conse-
quently were not brought under the Criminal Schools Act.
Criminal children were maintained, to a very large extent,
by government grant, and to those poor children who were
not criminal, there was no such provision • and no institu-
tion for this object would succeed, unless largely supported
by private subscription, under existing circumstances. He
related the instance of a boy who had been in penal servi-
tude for five years. In the meantime his father died, con-
sequently the lad was thrown on the streets. He made ap-
plication for admission into a reformatory institution, but
there was no institution existing for the reception of such
cases, and there was a very large number of these cases
occurring. If such an institution could be established, he
considered it would be very desirable. In Manchester and

)ther manufacturing towns, they had employment for
:hildren from a very early age, liutin Liverpool it was

r. Heath made some remarks on the groat tendency tiler(

was in institutions that were established for the beiiefit of
the poorer classes, drifting from that which they were
originally intended for, and benefitting a more comfortable
elasss. There was one important question which he thought
ought to. be settled in some way, that was, who were the
parties ? what system or class were responsible for the
maintenance and education of the poor ? Theoretically it
appeared to belong to the parochial system, but the
parochial system was upon its trial, and he con-
sidered it was upon the "horns of a dilemma." It
was either efficient or it was not, and that it had not
fulfilled its design was admitted on all hands. He con-
sidered that this was a question which should be closely
examined into. There was a capitation grant allowed by

not present, for- he had come to the meeting entirely un-
prepared with any observations. Glancing,. however, at
the heads set dawn in the paper sent him, he would make
an observation or two. Witie regard to infant mortality,
they had, happily, in Liverpoal, not the temptations which
in some of the manufacturing towns existed, for poor people
habitually to have their children under the influence of
narcotics at home, while they went to their work. With.
regard to the question, whether the habit of administering
opium did exist, that was a subject of very great importance,'
which would call for a full inquiry. The rearing of
children in Liverpool was a matter of known difficulty.
The mortality under three years of age was very great,
andany suggestions..which could, be given for the improve—
ment of health during that period of life, would, be very-
desirable. An idea had been often suggested to supply a
want which was- felt in very large towns, the want
of some means of sending into the country, either at the
public expense or partly at their own expense, those of the
working classes who were prevented by recent illness from
returning to their work, and who, if they remained in town,
would be discharged from the hospital and have medical
attendance withdrawn from them. Only wanting the means
of recovering their strength, they must, if they remained in
town, become a burthen to the community and require parish
relief—perpaps, never be able to return to their work.
Whereas, if there were in the neighbourhood of Liverpool
some place to which they might have a claim to be sent, it
would not only be a great work of humanity, but would
produce positively economical results to the public. (Hear,
hear.) Drainage, 'ventilation, and the supply of water,
were topics of the utmost importance with regard to the
health of large towns. As regards drainage and the supply
of water, he thought they might rattier congratulate
themselves in Liverpool., (Hear, hear.) The works
which had been recently constructed would last
for ages. The deep sewerage of Liverpool con-
trasted strongly with the old " pound-foolish" system
of shallow sewers, which were a great expense some years
ago, and had now to be taken up and replaced by more
costly structures. He was glad to bear his testimony to
the great benefit of the supply of water in Liverpool at
the present time. He feared, however, that there was a
great waste of water at present in some houses, and in the
use of it among the loirer classes, and indeed among all
classes. Water allowed to run to waste, which ought not
to run to waste, was an injury to the whole community.
It seemed that the large supply had brought with it the
idea that it was inexhaustible, and that there was no occasion
for economising it, With regard to the subject of better
knowledge touching 'public health, of course , perfect
knowledge with co-extensive means, would ensure perfect
public health. An eminent doctor had said that
all needed for perfect health wore a supply of fresh air,
food, and warmth ; and if these could be obtained, no me-
dical aid would be required, except that of a surgeon in case
of chance injuries, and of a physician in case of accidental
poisoning. As to the medical profession, he could only say
that he believed none of the community were more desirous
of meciug the means of public health adopted in the best
possible way, and that none would co-operate more readily
in all measures which tended towards social good. (Hear,
hear.)

T. Rathbone 'said, in reference to common lodging-
houses, he was sorry to say that the facts, as regarded
Liverpool, were both distressing, and not very creditable to
the town. With regard to the registration of these places,
the numbers that were not registered at all was enormous,
and the registration where it did exist was of an 'imperfect
kind: Lord Shaftesbury, to whom they were very much
indebted, had got an act passed, and it was immediately
taken up in the country districts, No person was allowed
to have a lodging-house without it being registered: He
could speak in reference to a largely populated country
village or town in his neighbourhood, with a population
quite as dense as in any part in Liverpool, and quite as low in
character, as difficult to deal with, and, of course, with
less machinery to deal with it. And within twelve months
of the passing of that act, eight or nine years
ago, every lodging-house was registered. At first it gave
them a good deal of trouble, and there were 30 or 40 cases
•, every session brought up, but now it was the exception if
there was one, and the provisions of that most valuable act
were carried out most perfectly. It was, only in
,the lower
description of Irish lodging-houses where anything like a
breach of the act occurred. But, as regards both health
and morality, and , everything else, the lodging-houses in
Liverpool were in a very bad state. Previous to the passing
of this act the lodgers in that . town were actually boarded
for a halfpenny or a penny a night in some places, and they
accummulated as many as 20 or 30 in a small room together.
A. policeman was sent, in one instance, to one of these places,
and on putting -his head into the room, he was sickened
and had to draw back. But that was all done away with
now, and .the sessions often passed without a single case
being brought up. He was sorry to say, and it was most
remarkable, that a very large proportion of the houses in
Liverpool were not registered at all. The local act prevented
the Lord Shaftesbury's Act applying in Liverpool, and the
local act did not go far enough.- Lord Shaftesbury's act
went much farther, and provided that not more than a
certain number should sleep in one room. In some respects
the local act had advantages over Lord Shaftesbury's.
There was some difficulty in defining a common lodging-
house. In the local act, it was considered that the houses
which took lodgers for a night only were common lodging-
houses. There were houses that kept lodgers for short
periods and also for nights. The consequence wad that, the
local act did not provide machinery adequate to deal with
these places as. they ought, to be dealt with. He recom-
mended the adoption of Lord Shaftesbury's act, which he
considered would be for the benefit of the town, with the
assistance of the inspection. of the police.
The Rev. Mr. Powell said, the south end of the town was
almost as bad as the north' end. In one street in his
district,. Albert-street, there was a population of-1,300, of
whom at one time there were 400 paupers . and 400 sick
people. He did not think the houses were registered at all.
Thus poverty, sickness, and crime, went stalking through
a densly populous street, which demanded the. immediate
attention of the authorities. The police did not like to go
through it, although he had to go through it himself often.
Mr. Philip Rathbone spoke on the question of social
economy. He said one great step in the proper direction
was the adoption of the f' cental" in Liverpool. The result
of the last session showed at least -that Liverpool had taken
the first step towards not decimal coinage, but decimal

weights and measures, and this was a subject upon which he
thought they ought to return their worthy chairman thanks,
for the part he had taken in reference to the introduction of
this system into the corn- exchange. (Hear, hear.) With
respect to trades' unions, it was a subject affecting perhaps

uve-sixtns of tne none and muscle of the best class of our
working population. It did not affect them so highly as the
public health did, but it affected them in their healthy
state, and it affected the whole prosperity of the country
There was

ne point of great importance to society, that
was, getting men to feel that they were a part of the great
whole, and not au isolated atom. He thought a man's self-
respect was very greatly raised in feeling that he was con-
tributing to a great movement, no matter what that move-
ment might be. He did not think there was any greater
proof of that, than the way the recruits became good soldiers,
and to whose they were so deeply indebted. They were
proud of their army, not only of what it did in the field,
but they were also proud of the individual actions - the
individual instances of heroism which were witnessed

among the men. There was a kind of feeling that the
glory oft he army rested in each individual soldier—who was
taken, he would not say from the worst class,. but not
certainly the best part of our population. They were proud
of them, and other nations envied them, for their conduct
not only in the field, but at home. There was another point,
England was making a fearful race with the other nations.
They might perhaps call themselves. the first mannfacturing
country in the world, but how long we might remain so
depended upon the individual energies of our working
population, as well as the enterprise of our capitalists.
And the effect of trades' unions upon the trade and com-
merce of the country was question of very

Mr. Theodore Railibone regretted the decision of the
commissioner on decimal coinage ; but congratulated the
Liverpool corn trade on having adopted the "cental," and said
it was hardly to be expected that the farmers and millers,
and men.from the country generally, should be the first to
embrace the adoption of a deciraal,system.
Dr. Gee, after a few introductory remarks, said, with
reference to the question of public health, he would refer
them to the improved state of the poorer classes of Liver-
pool. If they looked at the returns of mortality, they
would find that there was a very great decrease in the
class of diseases called zymotic, and especially of
that class called fever. These were diseases the most
preventable of any of the diseases coming under
the term zymotic, aud, accordingly, as there is a
decrease or increase of these diseases in the town, they
must consider their sanitary operations efficient or ineffi-
cient; and they found that the‘class of typhus and typhoid
fevers were very much diminished, and there was conse-
quently a great diminution in, the number of admissions in
the Liverpool Fever Hospitel, Thi s proved that labour
was more abundant, and food and the comforts of life more
easily obtained now by the working classes, and placed them
above the agencies most productive of these diseases ; and he
had no doubt the lodging-houses were also more strictlyloeked
after, although Mr. Rathbone remarked that the licenses
were not carried out to the extent he would wish. The
early removal of filth was better attended to, in order to
prevent its accumulation.. All this was very productive to
the diminishing of typhus and typhoid fevers, Such
diseases sometimes broke out in a family; it took hold of
one of the family, and then generally spread throughout
the family, so that a number of fever cases cam,e.in groups
from a family, or from a court, or numbers of neighbours,
from the immediate •locality. He thought that, when any
typhoid fever broke out in the miserable dwellings of some
of the poor, and the case came under the notice of the
parish medical officers, a communication should be made to
the sanitary staff of the town, and steps taken to put the
remainder of the family without the range of danger and
misery; and steps taken for the cleansing of the polluted
district. They frequently found that the child was taken
ill, and another child took it from him, and
the mother, who was under the influence of
want, took it too. The possibility was that one
or both died, and mortality was found to be affected very
much by the age of the person. Often children, by the
loss of their parents from this cause, were thrown upon the
world, and none to care for or look after them. They be-
came paupers; and what' became of them afterwards could
not be told. He therefore thought, not only from motives
of economy, but from feelings of common humanity towards
fallen man, there should be some organised scheme such as
he referred to. (Applanse.)
Mr. Damson moved, "That this meeting, deeming it of
the highest importance to the social interests of Liverpool
and its vicinity, as well as the kingdom at large, that the
circumstances affecting and determining the social condition
of that great and growing community now assembled on
the banks of the Mersey should be adequately and syste-
matically investigated, invite all persons disposed to take
part in or to aid such investigation to communicate with the
local committee, in order that their several labours may, by
due co-operation, be the better directed to the attainment' of
the common object." He said that, after what they had
heard from the previous speakers, the task allotted to him
would be an easy one. Only a single section of those into
which the association divided its labours remained to be
noticed. It would not be deemed extraordinary if he, as .a
lawyer, regarded law and jurisprudence as, in some respects,
the most important of all. And he believed he could justify
that estimate on other than professional grounds. Of all
the' considerations apt to be borne in upon the mind by the
contemplation of what this association was about, there
was, perhaps, none so well worthy of their best attention as
the prevalence--the certain and invariable prevalence of
laws—of great natural laws—throughout not only the phy-
sical world, but also that vast region of intellectual and
moral speculation hitherto commonly dealt with as
subject to no such laws. Were it not so, our labour
would be in vain. For to what end could we
labour to find out how me might best do our
duty to ourselves and to each other, if there be no
certainty in the action of the laws by which the rewards
of good conduct were secured ? But it was so. Every-
where the proof was at hand. Whether they took the
microscope, and with :the guidance of the atomic theory—
offspring, let us never forget, of a Lancashire brain, for
of all the patents registered in Heaven's chancery there
had been none less impeached, there was none less im-
peachable, than the patent right of Dalton to the credit
of that discovery ; if so, guided, they descended into the
infinity that lay under their very hands ; or if armed with
the telescope, they ascended into that only more pal-
pable infinity where the wonders of astronomy rewarded
their scrutiny ; or, if going backwards into tue past, or
forward into the future, they tracked through the double
infinity of time the relations, palpable or possible, of
our race to the end of the universe, they returned, and
even the more, surely as they had taken right reason for
their guide, frought with the conviction that all was under
their dominion, all swayed and governed by one mighty
system of laws, ever in harmony, and ever and every-

where prevalent. They saw, too, that our destiny ad-
vanced step, by step, as they recognised, comprehended,
and learned: to apply those laws. The first man who
pushed a canoe into the sea knew, as well as they did, the
fact that hollow bodies floated in water. They had learned
the law, and could apply it in an almost infinite variety of
ways. And about this law they had no doubt, either as
to its action, or as to its merits. Bat the ship that rode at
anchor in the tideway of the Mersey did not, in fact, in
its ceaseless heaving motion, more directly illustrate the
dynamic law of displacement, than did the daily goings to
and fro of the multitudes in our streets, and their relations
to and transactions with each other, whether for good or
for evil, also illustrated the operation of other laws, equally

certain, equally prevalent, but only not to them yet equally
well-known. The object of this association, however, was
to discover and make known these laws. In those words
might the entire purpose of its existence be expressed. And

had undertaken to speak, the 'work consisted practically in
endeavouring to bring their own human and artificial laws
into accordance with the Divine law, he thought he might
also claim for it thehonour, and, with it, the responsibility,
of most directly suggesting this great primary view of their
position, and of their duties. Mr. Danson then proceeded
to comment upon some of the questions already before the
committee, as illustrating. the futility and the mischievous

operation of laws made in ignorance or in disregard of the
principle of science, whether social or otherwise; and concluded
with some remarks on the moral responsibility of the inhabi-
tants of Liverpool in this matter. It had been stated that at the
beginning of the century, Dr. Currie, at the instance of
the Corporation , reported upon the defective sanitary
condition
.of the buildings of the town, and that his

recommendations were disremarded on the ground that to
carry them out would be to interfere with the rights of
property—apparently some supposed right of property in
disease and death, as detailed by defectively constructed
houses. The result in the next forty years appeared
to have been the premature death, to say nothing of the
attendant suffering, mental and bodily, involved in such
deaths, of some 40,000 of the inhabitants of the town
deaths by disease clearly perceptible—which the course
recommended by Dr. Currie would have prevented, and
which they were then engaged in efforts to prevent, and
which efforts were _ found very far mono difficult and
costly that; they would nowihave been had our pre-