Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-01-06 00:00:00

MR. JEFFERY'S MOTION

The next business on the paper was the* following
motion, of which notice had been given by Mr. J. R.
Jeffery.

"To rescind or vary the following Resolution of the
Council, passed on the 7th of July last :

" ' That the Council sanction the following principle in
reference to the mode of dealing with the leasehold pro-
perty of the Corporation, in those cases in which, in the
opinion of the Council, that principle may be applied
with safety and advantage to the Corporate estate,
viz.:—

" ' That, in lieu of receiving the gross amount of pur-
chase-money or fine, upon the granting or renewal of a
lease, a rent be reserved, payable either quarterly or half-
yearly, such rent being calculated at a proper rate of
interest on the amount of fine not paid or deposited, as
hereinafter provided ; and, in addition thereto, such
further rate per cent. as shall be sufficient, by accumula-
tion at compound interest, to equal at least the present
value of the gross fine, the Council reserving the power,
in all cases to which this principle may be applied, to
require payment or deposit at the time of sale or renewal,
of such proportion of the gross amount of fine as the
circumstances of each case may seem to require.'
"And to move that in every case in which, in the
opinion of the Finance Committee, the principle of that
resolution can be adopted with safety and advantage to
the Corporate Estate, that committee do make a special
report to the Council, stating what proportion of the
gross amount of fine or purchase money ought to be paid
in money, and the rate of interest which the balance
should bear, and the amount of redemption money to be
added to such interest in the shape of rent, to be
reserved in the lease previous to advertising any property
for sale , and that the Council's decision do form part of
the conditions of such sale."

Mr. Jeffery, in rising to propose the above resolution,
said : It will be in thQ recollection of the Council,
when I moved an amendment to Mr. Stewart's
motion, in July last, my desire was to have it postponed for
six months ; and it would have been much better
if that arrangement had been carried out, and then
we should have had in our possession the facts as to the
state of the Corporation revenue, with one year's
deficiency of the town dues. But in the absence of such
figures, I have to deal with such as I have before me, and
I must therefore ask the Council to bear with me,
while 1 make the statement I am about to do.'
When the subject was first brought forward by me, Mr.
Stewart, in his remark, told us that there would not be
any deficiency. I have his own words on that point, and
they were to that effect ; but since then he seems to
have altered his opinion, for while discussing about the
sale of the hotel in Dale-street, he said, in answer to
a question put by myself—lf they commuted the property,
what would become of the revenue ? and he replied,
" Well, there might be a deficiency." Now, I submit, that
it is our duty to avoid a deficiency ; it is our duty not
only to avoid a deficiency, but, if possible, to strive to
increase the revenue, if it can be done, with a due regard
to the interests of posterity. We have no right to de-
prive posterity ; but if we are to commute the whole of
our estate - and I take it where wo have a right to corn-
mute a part we have a right to commute the whole,—
what will be the revenue we shall arrive at ? Some gen-
tleman, on the last occasion, said that revenue so derived was
capital. Now, I don't think that reflection will sustain
him in that view. If our predecessors have anticipated
our income, and we are not to continue that anticipation,
there must be an interregnum, an interregnum of a. very
serious character indeed ; an interregnum that will
cause a deficiency amounting to very many thousands
of pounds in the revenue of this 'Corporation. Let
me take the figures as they appear on the balance
sheet, ending with the 31st of August last year. I
find that the revenue derived from the sale of leases
and renewals for seventy-five years was £23,170.
I find the income from rents from tenants-at-will was
£10,102 ; from this must be deducted the cost of repairs,
£1,630, which leaves a net income of £8,472, thus giving
a total of £31,642. That I understand to be our income
closing with August last, from the sale of leases, and for
renewals, and from the rents of tenants in possession.
Now, sir, if we were to commute these amounts,
our income would be as follows :—Taking the first
amount, £23,170, at a commutation of 4-'77 per cent.
per annum, our income would be reduced to £1,130.
Now, if we have no right, as Mr. Stewart says,
to spend the future in one particular, we have no
right to spend the future in another particular ; but
my argument is, that we have a right to spend,
if we so think fit, whatever we may derive from
the sale of leases falling out ; whether at a ter-
mination of 75 years leases, as hitherto granted,
or for a renewal or extension of 75 years leases, I say
we have a perfect and entire right to the appropriation
of that money as we may think fit. We are owners in
possession —we don't profess as a Corporation to be land-
lords in possession, but we do profess to be lessors.
But if that be !the whole further sum, the half of it
may be required for other purposes, making £4,236 more
revenue, that is if we may consider that the improvement
consequent on the sacrifice of that property has enhanced
the remaining portion of the site onto--half.
Alderman. s. Holm interruVced Mr. Jeffery, and

complained that gentlemen were leaving the room.
There was scarcely a sufficient number of gentlemen
present to form a council.
The Mayor: There is scarcely a council now.
Mr. Jeffery wished to know what he was to under-
stand by the remark of Mr. Holme ?
Alderman Holme said, he made the remark, because
when a question came on so seriously affecting the whole
of the finance of the Corporation, only a few gentlemen
were present to attend to Mr. Jeffery's remarks. Then
Mr. Jeffery complained.
Mr. Earle : They will read and digest it in the
papers.
Mr. Holme said : Gentlemen were frequently
finding fault with the Financial Committee, and were
not ihemselves present—generally all such —when
financial questions were brought forward.
Mr. Jeffery : It is a fact too often occurring,
that gentleman don't interest themselves in matters of
finance so much as they should. When the resolution
recorded on the books was carried, seven out •ot
ten did not understand the question or the way in
which they voted. (Hear, hear.) I quite agree in the
remark—that gentlemen don't give that attention to
financial matters that they deserve at their hands. But,
doubtless, it maybe supposed they will read what has
been done in the papers to-morrow; that is, if they do
take the trouble to read what occurs. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Earle : If you will condense it, sir, they will read,
it (laughter).

kr.- Jeffery : Bat if there are any who won't
read what is done, there are others who take
more interest in our proceedings. But to proceed
with what I was saying. Supposing the property which
we shall retain, after sacrificing what I have mentioned,
a moiety of that in our possession for the town improve-
ments, I will suppose that sixteen years purchase will
put us in possession of £103,000 ; commute that to
44- per cent per annum, and then we have a revenue of
about £5,000. Instead of that we should have a
revenue of £6,164. Now, I ask gentlemen. in
this room if they are prepared for such a
result ; if they are prepared to impose a borough-
rate, in order to make up the deficiency ; or are they
prepared to make up any portion of that deficiency by a
borough-rate at all ? It is simply a question—if you will
do so—or much this year, the next year and in
subsequent years ? Then it booomoq a question—
whether or. not a deficiency would arise in tho
corporate accounts ? To the last year's account we must add
what was received from the town-dues, and not to be re-
eived again. We must add then a deficiency on the water-
account ; and this I must commend to the attention of
the chairman of the Finance Committee, for it, is also
their matter and not exclusively that of the Water Com-
mittee ; and it must be borne in mind that that com-
mittee obtains money at the minimum rate of interest,
and they can so have as much money as they want for
their own purposes, clearly showing that the security
they can give is ample for any money they may require.
What is the security. Revenue derivable by the sale of

water, and the corporate estates given as collateralsecurity,
which as to its soundness, is of course unquestionable.

able to raise such money as the

Committee may require at a minimum rate of interest.
But there is a deficiency, which the corporate estate, as
collateral security, will have to find, through the
Chairman of the Finance Committee and the Committee;
and that amount they will have to add to the deficiency,
which it will be necessary for them to provide for. I regret
the estimated accounts are not before the Council, that
you might have, instead of my opinion, the opinion of the
deputy-chairman and the other members of the Finance
committee. I, as a private member of the Council, must,
in the absence of the accounts, give you my information
upon this. £3,000 I am bound to add to that of this year,
obtained by an additional halfpenny water rate, through
the Health Committee, in consequence of the poverty
of the Water Committee. These figures give us
£86,259, and I have to subtract from that £14,000
surplus revenue from last year, and £16,000 paid on
account of the Dock Estate, leaving a deficit of £56,259.
Or, if I subtract, simply taking the town-dues and water
account, I bring the deficit to £61,000, less £14,000,
and £16.000, which leaves the deficit at £30,000. The
condition of the estimate is a circumstance we must
carefully regard. I may be laying myself open to the
charge of attacking the committee, 1 own, but these
remarks, I take it, do not apply to the present com-
mittee only. But here is the omission, and a very
important omission, and if it were the only
one, I would not comment upon it ; but there was
omitted in the last account—a vitally important document
—the balance sheet of the assets and liabilities,
by which, had it been given, gentlemen might have
informed themselves on the position of the accounts. I
called attention to that in November, and if not an
unintentional. omission, it would have been supplied to
this Council before now, I should suppose; and I shall
be glad to learn from the chairman of the committee, that
he is prepared to say it was an unintentional omission,
and that the account shall be furnished. The deficiency does
not rest there. In the Finance Committee, for years,' it
has been the practice to give the details of sales from
leases for 75 years. In the particulars of sales, for
instance, are mentioned the streets, the amount of money
received for the lease of 75 years, and the situation, as in
Lord-street, Church-street, or Bold-street ; and from
that was deducted the expense incurred, even showing
the commission of the auctioneer. As a council, we
connot have too much of that sort of infor-
mation,; but, on the part of the Finance
Committee, they have not furnished us with
so much information as this Council should possess,
to enable them to form an accurate opinion. It is
impossible for all the members to wade through and
examine the books of the Corporation, and look into
every account and read them through the pages of
the ledger; unless the Corporation accounts are con-
densed, and put into clear statements, the members of
-the Council cannot possibly deal with those accounts.
(Hear, hear.) I take it, our first duty should be to
avoid a deficiency of revenue ; we should rather strive
to increase than diminish, and by the adoption of Mr.
Stewart's resolution, I do not think it will have that
effect, if it is applicable to the property to which I have
referred. It should not be applicable to such instances
as when we sold the borough jail land, which should have
been sold like all other property, and what it produced
should have been placed to the credit of the borough jail
account, and should have gone in substitution of new
outlay. When the Sessions House is sold, the proceeds
should be carried to the credit, in like manner,
of the new Sessions House, now building in Hatton-gar-
den. Because the Council sanctions a rate for the erec-
tion of this building, I don't think that what is produced
by the sale of the building which it displaces should go
to the credit of the borough fund, and that the present
generation should bear all the expense, for the benefit of
posterity. The money should not be 'so appropriated.
What is the character of the property which may, per-
chance, come under Mr. Stewart's motion, I would say pro-
bably that of the Newsham House estate, when the estate
is laid out, an,' the roads and sewers are paid for, if the
commutation can then be acted on there? If there be any
residue after paying the expenses incurred, it may be ap-
plicable in such cases as that; and such, probably, may
be the case with the money to be received from the dock
estate, when invested in freehold pnrchases and sales of
75 years leases effected, this principle of commutation
might be adopted. If applicable the resolution
should not stand upon the books in its pre-
sent form. Our sacred duty is to obtain the public:
confidence on occasions of their attending these
sales, and to see that wo do nothing, as our own act and
deed, that would lesson the confidence of any gentleman
who might go into the public sale room—we should do
nothing to interfere with or controul his bidding ; he
should feel that when he goes there he is on a par with
any gentleman who may bid. I think the conditions of
the sale should be made as public as the sale itself, or as
are the biddings at that sale. I will suppose a gentleman
attending that sale under the conditions mentioned on
Mr. Stewart's motion ; I would suppose him intimate
with every member of the Finance Committee, and that
he knows if he is a buyer he may have the purchase
money commuted. But if a stranger goes, he does not
know anybody in the room, is ignorant of the commuta-
tion or anything of the sort ; and it may be that a third
person goes, who has not the whole of the money,
but who make arrangements to raise it on
mortgage, though it might be with some difficulty;
but if he could say for a certainty that he
would have it commuted, he would not be required to
look round for the money, because he would know that
he could have it from the Corporation itself. Now, will
any gentleman venture to tell you that these three parties
are on an equal footing? It is clear that they are not ;
because Mr. Stewart's motion expressly states—the pro-
perty should be put up by public auction, and that it
be sold for cash payment, but that the finance committee
may have the power to commute if subseqo.ently
requested, and if they think fit. Clearly tile man
who is unknown to, or unacquainted with tho c;ommittee,
has not the same advantages as the man wAio knows the
committee. I would give the committee ,no such power,
and, by not ,giving it, so raise the committee above
suspicion. (dear, hear.) I Iniieve the possession
of that power will place them i:a a position which, as
individual members, they aren.'ot desirous of being placed
in. I would give them as 'tittle discretion as it would
be possible to eive them, Therefore, if gentlemen would
be kind enough to rerAd my amendment, they would see
it is an addition, rai addendum, to Mr. Stewart's motion,
whilst it will develop and give it a specific character, by
providing that the Corporation, when they announce a
sale, shall state what amount may remain as commuta-
tion, at what rata of interest, and what fpr tq.

THE NORTHERN TIMES THURSDAY, JANUARY 6, 1859.

demption of purchase, - or mortgage money, if
the buyer should see fit. I can imagine nothing
more unsatisfactory than that it should remain as it is—
serving one and subjective to another's corrupt influences
—than the resolution as it now stands on the books
of the council. (Hear, hear.) I think we should
thoroughly deprive the committee of the power of
corruption, which it now possesses, and' if my amend-
ment be added to the motion, that will be done, but I
see no necessity for the motion at all (hear, hear) ;
and I would have moved, as an amendment, that it
be rescinded, but when I saw that the council
had passed the motion by a majority of two
to one, I did not think it would have been
respectful to the Council if I had done so. But, viewing
it as I did, I saw the pernicious power given to the com-
mittee, and which might be used to a pernicious end. I
felt it my duty to call the attention of the Council to the
fact, and then to leave it to the Council to deal with the
matter as they might think best. I have said I thought
there was only one other body that had power equal to
the power confided to the Council—l mean the powers
given to 'the magistracy in granting licenses—a power
which there is but one opinion of throughout almost all
the country, that it is injurious in the highest degree and
should be altered. (Hear, hear.) I now ask the Coun-
cil not to create in a section of their body, a
power capable of being exercised in the same
way and capable of producing the same results, and being
applied to the same corrupt purposes. (Hear, hear.)
I move the motion of which I have given notice.
Mr. Stitt seconded the amendment, reserving his
remarks to a further stage of the discussion.

Mr. Stewart said, although the whole poliey of the
scheme was embraced in the remarks of Mr. Jeffery, he
should not apply himself .to the objections to the general
question ; not because they were not capable of being
answered, but because he thought it best to confine
himself merely to the question involved in the amendment.
The mover of the amendment, Mr. Jeffery, had not
himself a stronger feeling than he (Mr. Stewart) had
that all should be dealt with alike in the- disposition
of the Corporate property. (Hear, hear.) But he had
yet to learn that the Council were offering a boon to
anybody in asking him to pay 41 per cent interest, and
to pay off the principal at the rate of 3 per cent. He
felt strongly that the great object of the Corporatron
ought to be, under their present circumstances, the due
.pplioation of their money to the production of inoome.
(Hear, hear.) In the report of the Finance Committee,
which had been submitted to the Council, and which was
approved of, the committee, feeling a strong desire not to
disturb the feeling which was entertained by all persons
as to the continuance of the system of leasing which had
been long adopted, said, and he thought with great pro-
priety, "Your committee desire, in the first place, to cor-
rect an impression which,- they are informed, prevails to
the effect that it is intended by this recommendation, to
alter generally the usual and customary mode of dealing
with leases." What was that mode ? To take a fine.
The report went on to say—" Your committee have no
such intention, and should their recommendation be ap-
proved of by the Council, it will still be optional with
lessees to pay the fines on granting the
renewals .of their leases. The application of the
principle will be special and exceptional, and
exercised only on the application, or with the concurrence,
of the lessees, and in such cases as, in the opinion of the
Council, the principle can be applied with safety and
advantage to the Corporate estate." (Hear, hear.) The
principle thus enunciated and recognised by the Council
was really to leave the system to be matter of arrange-
ment, in which the parties could, in point of fact,
exercise their own discretion as to commuting the lease.
What was the fact with regard to it in one instance ? The
principle had been applied, it was well known, to one
property, and one only. An application was made to the
Fivan e Co:nmitte?, for the renewal of a lease of a
valuable property, upon which the fine amounted to about
£1,600, and perhaps there could be no better security in
the world than that property, which was worth several
thousands. The solicitor of the lessees wrote to know
whether they could commute the fine, and an intimation
was conveyed to him that if the lessees were so disposed,
the Finance Committee would bring it before the
Council. After a lapse, however, of a few weeks, the
lessees made their election to pay ie fine. (Hear, hear.)
The question was, were the Corporation getting all
they could reasonably expect by the mode proposed,
or were they not. If the committee were actually
offering any loan at the expense of the Corporation, then
let them raise the terms, and there would be no loan in
it. (Hear, hear.) In many cases he thought it would
be exceedingly convenient to men of business if the pro-
posed plan were adopted; and his desire was to give
them every convenience, provided it could be done with
perfect justice and security to the corporate estate.
Mr. Jeffery had taken the whole of the corporate pro-
perty as being subject to the plan of commutation. He
(Mr. Stewart begged to say that the bulk of the corpo-
rate property was of a character to which the principle
could not be applied at all. .(Hear, -hear.) Large
'sales to which the principle could be applied were the
exception not the rule. The great bulk of the property
was small house property, which would not bear the ap-
plication of the principle, and to. which he had not the
slightest intention of advocating it. (Hear, hear.) He
thought there would be great objection to making, before-
hand, conditions of sale which would be obligatory upon
the Corporation and not upon the purchaser. (Hear,
hear.) But if the committee were offering for sale a
class of property, the nature of which would make it
desirable that the fine should be commuted, he should
have no hesitation in recommending that when
it was offered, it should be stated that the Corporation
would be willing, provided the terms were satisfactory,
to commute the fine,• upon the principle laid down. (Hear,
hear.) When they were offering the property at the
bottom of Church-street, which they would shortly have
to do, and other property of that class, he thought there
could be no objection. He thought the mode now pro-
posed to effect this; by Mr. Jeffery's resolution, rather a
roundabout way. He saw great objections to announcing
conditiims in all cases which would be fast upon one
party and loose upon the other party; and he believed
there would be exceeding great difficulty in shaping the
conditions of sale'ter involve a commutation hereafter to
be made. It had been said, that if these conditions had
been known, £l,OOO more would have been given for the
George Hotel. What a' compliment to his *scheme 1
He never hal supposed that his proposal could be the
means of enriching the Corporation in such a manner.
All he had endeavoured was to get for the Corporation
the full rate of interest and full security. In
every matter of detail, for the purpose of carrying
on their business in the most efficient and satisfactory
manner, the Finance Committee, should always
feel obliged to any gentleman who could suggest
any improvement to them, and such suggestions should
always meet with the fullest attention. He had himself
devoted to the present subject a great deal of attention,,
and certainly not with the view of showing favoritism to
any one, but merely for the purpose of serving what he
believed to be the interests of the Corporation. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. Picton could see very little difference between the
views of. Mr. Jeffery, and those of the Chairman of the
Finance Committee, and he thought a suggestion might
be made which should harnionise the two. The great
object of Mr. Jeffery, as he took it, was that every
transaction of the kind, proposed by the Finance
Committee, should first be submitted to the
Council. He did not hear the Chairman of the
finance committee at all object to• that, and he appre-
hended that a simple addition at the close of the original
resolution, as carried by the Council, stating that in all
cases of sales, on the principle of commutation, the sub-
ject should first be brought before the Council, would
satisfy all parties. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Stewart : Certainly—it is so. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Picton said, if thai were so they were now discus-
sing a subject which was wholly unnecessary. It was,
however, scarcely possible to allude to the subject without
lugging in the principle in some shape or other. He therefore,
upon that subject, begrre d to give it as his deliberate opinion,
having studied the subject somewhat—although probably
not so much as Mr. Stewart, with whom he had not
equally great experience—that by the system of leasing
hitherto pursued, the Council had lost a very large sum
of money throuoh its corporate funds ; and, in a very few
words, he would show that to be the case, if they started
fair from the beg7inning. Suppose a corporate property,
which had been in lease, of £l,OOO a-year' falling out of
lease, and that it were leased again for £lOlOO a-year,
what would they have at the end of seventy-five
lears? 11,000 for each year—in the whole £75,000,
f, however, they proceeded on the principle of commu-
tation now proposed, they would get, for the first year,
probably, only £5O, instead of £1,000; but at the end of
twenty years the two principles would equalise them-
selves, and after the first twenty years they would go on
increasing and increasing in their yearly revenue from
that source, until, at the end of 75 years, they,
would get to £3,750, instead of £l,OOO. He knew,
that if they went upon the strict mathematical prin-
ciple, the 11,000 a-year, by the first mode, put
out to interest, and accumulating at compound
interest, would come to the same thing. This
was theoretically correct, but practically they all knew
that it did not re4ult so, but that the money was all spent
as it came in. The first of the two modes would give
them £l,OOO a year. The second, taking an average
income from first to last, would give /1,875. Practically.
then, the corporate estate, by the mode hitherto pursued,
would lose in every such instance a sum
.of £lB7stpetr
annum. • Mr. Stewart, very wisely considenngt r sa e
of the corporate property, after what had recently taken
place, urged that t 1407407 suQuid gradually approximate

another

the better plan, than that which had been hitherto
pursued ; not that it should be done violently
or suddenly, but gradually and carefully, as circumstances
should enable. (Hear, hear.) He thought Mr. Stewart
had exercised a very wise and proper discretion, and that
the Council should do well, so far as it was practicable,
always looking to the maintaining of a sufficient income
to meet their expenses, in following the advice he had
given. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Steains was somewhat gartied, as a member of the
Finance Committee, to hear so able a financer as Mr.
Jeffery speak of a deficiency of something like £40,000.
It had been alreadypointed out by Mr. Stewart, that Mr.
Jeffery alluded to the whole of theleases of the Corporatien,
as coming under the principle of commutation, whereas
the application of that principle would be only rare and
exceptional. Mr. Jeffery, he contended, had also com-
mitted a (Treat fallacy in regard to the deficiency in
revenue. lie had pointed out that £42,742 was received
last year from the town dues, which would not come in
again. Now he would take it in round numbers that the
town dues were £140,000 a-year. That amount was
commuted for a sum which would produce interest to the
amount of about £70,000 a year. Therefore, in the shape
of interest they would receive back again half of the
amount. which was lost. Then there _ were some
sums of money to be arranged between the Dock Board
and the Corporation, and the differenee of interest in
favour of the Corporation would be something like
.L 7,000 or £B,OOO. There were also items of expendi-
ture which would not have to be incurred again - such as
the well-earned and justly paid gratuity to the Town
Clerk, and the expenses of a statue and picture of Mr.
Brown. Taking these considerations altogether, instead
of there being a deficiency he was bold enough to say
that they would have a positive surplus. (Hear, hear )
Mr. 'Gladstone thought, there would *be nothing
objectionable in disposing of leasehold property by
auction to the .highest bidder, a certain ground rent
having been declared. That was a simple course of pro-
cedure, and he could not see why it should not recommend
itself to the Corporation. No doubt there were Many
parties who might be able to erect buildings, but who had
not the means of paying the principal for the land, and,
at the same time, supplying money for erecting houses.
Therefore, he thought now, as he did upon the
former occasion, that it might be of great im-
portance to the Corporation that some such
principle should be established. Ile further
thought the principle was a sound one, which
placed everybody at a public sale upon the same footing,
and that the buyers should not be oxpased afterwards to
the caprices of the Finance or any other committee of the
Corporation, but that every one should understand dis-
tinctly when he made an offer, what amount he was
about to involve himself in. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Stewart
had referred to the' Parchase'of the George Hotel. HE
(Mr. Gladstone) considered, and ever should consider
lon

bond interest might be paid_ for. It so happened that it
was so that a very large proportion of the bond interest
was paid at a certain portion of the year, and concentrated
itself into a very small amount. Mr. Steains's argument
therefore .fell to the ground. Mr. Gladstone complained,
in reference to the sale of the George Hotel, that the pro-
perty was sold under one class of conditions and bought
under another. Allow him (Mr. Jeffery), to say
to that Council, if Mr; Stewart's motion
was allowed to remain, this would be repeated at every
sale. It would be repeated over and over again.
Every man who attended, and bought property,
would be subject to the subsequent resolution
of the committee. The public should know the con-
ditions on which they were bidding, and not be subject
to the caprice of the Finance Committee (hear, hear),
and be perfectly independent of that committee, and
know what they were buying. Ile would ask the
council to adopt his proposition. He ' would append his
motion to that of Air. Stewart's, if the council thought
proper, or with the words added, to the effect "that
in every case in which an auction for the Finance Com-
mittee take place, the conditions should be ascertained
before the sale was announced, and whether they would
commute. His reason for leaving it open to the buyer,
was to remove the difficulty presented by the Finance
Committee. If a man of wealth choosed to pay the
money down, let him do so, but equal privilege
should be given to the man who would com-
mute. He thus disposed of the objection of
Mr. Avison. He complained of want of publicity of the
proceedings of the Finance Committee. There was no
desire on the part of the committee to give the slightest
information, and until they admitted the reporters they
would be accused of that love of secrecy.
Mr. S. Holme repudiated this.
Mr. Jeffery said, gentlemen appointed for the
Watch Committee connected with public-houses
Would not sit, and he contended that solicitors should
not upon the Finance Committee, but should be ex-
cluded from it. With these remarks, he left the matter
in the hands of the Council.

•
The motion was then put to the vote, when there
appeared

For—Councillors: Stitt, Woodruff, Corbally,Haydock,
Clerk, Ryley, Bowring, Ridley, Rogers, Job, Gladstone,
Jeffery, .Johnson, Picton, Kitchen, Hodgson, Clint,
Beckwith, Aikin, Anthony,-21.
Against—The Mayor ; Aldermen : Bennett, Dover,
Parker, Cooper, Turner, Gardner, Shand, Houghton, Tout
min, Holme ; Councillors : Crosthwaite, Anderson, Crellin,
Sheil, Shimmin, Barton, Turner, Tyrer, Steains, Avison,
Rae, Shand, Tobin, Earle, Robertson, Stewart, Fara-
worth-27.

The motion was declared lost, there being —for, 21;
against, 27.

THE W,ITCH COMMITTEE

3 his opinion was worth anything, that a very
erious error had been committed in that instance. In

The proceedings of this committee were read and con-
firmed, on the motion of Mr. Clint, seconded by Mr.
James Johnson. The former gentleman said, the only
special business was, that of accepting the tender of Mr.
Burton, for the convevance of prisoners to Walton.
Mr. Dover said the vans were unfit for pigs, much less
for human beings.

by the sale of the property. In the second place, .
was a still more important objection, that the property
was sold upon one set of conditions, and settled for upon
_.. (Hear, . hear.) He therefore contended that
a gross injustice had been done to the public, and he
defied any man, even although he should raise the dead
from their graves, to disprove that argument. (Hear,
hear.) He was indisposed to take up byegones, but that
was a subject in regard to which he should be prepared at
all times and in all circumstances to defend the course
which he had adopted. It appeared to him that the
objection to Mr. Stewart's proposal was, that it had not
the character of finality. (Hear, hear.) It was open to
objections which ought not to exit. There should be in
such cases nothing withheld, nothing uncertain, nothing
which could in any way prejudice the buyer, who ought
to know at the moment the precise terms upon which he
was about to purchase. (Hear, hear.) As to the prin-
ciple itself, he concurred to some extent with Mr. Stewart,
but he took the objections which he believed to have
bean very .ably expressed by Mr. Jeffery. There could
be no question but that the Corporation, by the adoption
of some such principle, would probably be very materially
the gainers, and would be able to dispose of a large
amount of property, which at present
_produced little or
no revenue. (Bear, hear.)
Mr. Aikin s ud the whole question appeared to him to
bo merely as to the application of the principle. The
gist of Mr. Jeffery's resolution, whi.rAt was not well-
worded, consisted in the words, "previous to advertis-
ing." He presumed Mr. Jeffery meant any property to
which the principle should be applied. The Chairman
of the Finance Committee stated, if he correctly under-
stood him, that he would have 113 objection to
state, before offering a property for sale, whether the
principle would or would not be applicable to it. (Hear.)
If that were the case, agreeing as we did with many of
the arguments of Mr. Jeffery, with reference to the
application of the principle and its soundness, he thought
there was really very little difference between the mem-
bers of the Council upon the present subject. He was
sure• Mr. Jeffery in his remarks did not mean to cast any
reflections upon the Finance Committee, but merely to
enunciate a sound principle, and leave as little as could
be left to possible mismanagement.
Mr. Avison said, he believed professional men through-
out the town were perfectly satisfied with the old system,
and lie hoped the Council would hesitate before they
departed from it. Mr. Stewart knew very well that
there were estates in the town where the principle of a
ground rent had been applied. There was the estate, for
instance of the Marquis of Salisbury. What was the
fact ? If any man built a house upon that land leased
to him, subject to a ground rent, the moment ho applies
for a mortgage upon the property, he invariably met with
a difficulty in getting parties to lend him money upon
mortgage, and why so ? Because the mortgagee said
there was something tantamount to a previous mortgage
upon the land. He believed Mr. John Shaw
Leigh also tried the plan and found it a failure. If a
party bought a piece of land undo the I syste-
...

HACKNEY CARRIAGE COMMUTE}

Mr. Beckwith wished to know why reporters were not
admitted to the Hackney Carriage Committee, as before.
Mr. Clint briefly replied, and the proceedings were
confirmed.

THE HEALTH COMMITTEE

The proceedings of this committee were next read.
Mr. Alderman Dover moved their adoption.
At the request of Mr. J. R. Jeffery, the Clerk read that
portion of the minutes relative to a request from the
Messrs. M'Fie, to erect a bridge from one of their buildings
to the other, across Batchelor-street, which the committee
had refused.

Mr. J. R. Jeffery urged upon the Council to grant the
request, and moved that the subject be referred back to
the c ommittee.

Mr. Hodgson begged to second the suggestion, and
designated the refusal of it to be one of the highest
wrought pieces of imagination that he had ever heard.

Mr-. Beckwith considered the committee had acted
very properly in the refusal, as he said Messrs. M'Fie had
broken an engagement they had made Qa a previous
occasion.
Mr. Hohne spoke in favour of the request being
granted, and advocated the erection of a bridge in this
particular instance, as it could do no injury, but would be
a great benefit to an extensive firm.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone spoke in favour of the steps
taken by the committee, and censured the conduct of the
Messrs.

After a brief discussion, the Council divided, when
there appeared for the amendment 21, and against it 22:
The voting was as follows :

For the -motion—Aldermen Thomas Bold, Thomas
Dover,. Joseph Cooper, J. Hayward Turner, Raymond
Houghton. Councillors Daniel Crosthwaite, Thomas
D. Anderson, James Crellin, John Shimmin, John Clerk,
Thomas Avison Thomas Wagstaff, John Rogers, Thomas
Bulky Job, William Earle, Robert Hutchison, James R.
Jeffery, Tames A. Picton, T. Llewelyn Hodson, R. hr.
Beckwith -Total 21. •

Against the motion —The Mayor, Aldermen William
Bennett, James Parker, Richard C. Gardner, Samuel
llolme. Councillors John Johnson Stitt, John Wood-
ruff, Richard Sheil, C. J. Corbally, Roger Haydock,
'William Barton, Charles Turner, James Steains, James
Ryley, Charles T. Bowring, David Rae, Thomas Ridley,
Robertson Gladstone, James Johnson, Joseph Kitchen,
Francis A. Clint, John Farnworth, William 11. Anthony
—Total 22.

Mr. Holme then moved that the request of Messrs.
M‘Fie be complied with. _

eco posec
and bought more than he wanted, he would divide it and
sell parts. But the whole land was subject to one ground
rent, and every portion which a purchaSer bought was
subject, not to a proportion but to the entire ground rent.
This led to groat disputes between party and party; and
he feared very much, if the Council adopted the plan,
they would be adopting what would prove extremely
obnoxious to the pnblic. There might be cases where
the principle could be fairly applied, but they ought not
to force parties. _ _ _

Mr. Stewart said, there was no compulsion whatever
contemplated. (Hear, hear.) The commutation could
only take place where the les3ee desired it and the lessers
agreed to it. (Hear, hear.)

-Mr. Stitt thOught,' it would economise time very much
if gentlemen would bear in mind the real question for
discussion. The principle of Mr. Stewart's motion had
been affirmed by a large majority, and was not now under
discussion. Mr. Stewart said, the great question for
them to discuss was—would the Council get all they were
entitled to and all they could in every transaction ?
But he (Mr Stitt) thought that depended
very much upon 'another question. Did they
put all the . buyers upon an equal footing. (Hear,
hear.) Until they had settled that question, he
maintained that they could not say whether or not they
would get the full amount which they could otherwise
secure. (Hear, hear If in the case supposed by Mr.
Jeffery, three men business came forward to make
purchase, one of whom was. in the secret of the terms,
another in partial ignorance, and a third in total
ignorance, he would put it to any gentleman in the room,
whether, under those circumstances, the Council could
sell the land as well as they might do under other cir-
cumstances ? (Hear, hear.) How was that to be met ?
By giving publicity prior to the sale, so that all parties
coming to make a purchase should know precisely the
terms upon which they were to make it. (Hear, hear.)
That was not, it appeared to him, capable of being carried
out by the Finance Committee's resolution as originally
placed upon the books, and he believed the amendment
would accomplish the objects.
Mr. Alderman Parker declared that there were no
secrets in the Finance Committee, and that everything
which was done there was brought before the Council.
Mr. Andason said, if Mr. Jeffery meant that when the
property is. advertised to be sold, the terms should be
stated, or at the time of the sale, there could belittle dif-
ference, for, if he understood correctly, Mr. Stewart stated
this.
Mr. Ryley thought there was in practice very little dif-
ference, All that he wanted was that everybody should
know what the principle was. The Council should affirm
the principle, and then everything was done, and they
public
might leave the Finance Committee to carry it out, and
they. would carry it out honourably and fairly ; but let
their have the principle acknowledged by the Council on
asto
ibaeasuold.
auctions the
whi‘altrt.esrmhismtalheinprreopemarrtkyed7
that
terms of sale were stated. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Jeffery said Mr. Steains had stated that he
had fallen into a fallacy. He thought he
could
turn the tables, and show that Mr. Steains
had fallen into a fallacy. • If a
Mr. Ste. could
Steains
show him from past experiments of the ‘
committee that
the interest had fallen into the exch. / c
equer preeisely sover-
eign for sovereign, as the tencn duesflowed
could divide the sum received as
could half it, but until he _ _ town dues by two. Ile
could do that, it might be that
the interest of the
.whole year was put into
the last quarter,
dealt with in the the portion of the year
on the last day of August,
the first of January as
might be lav' 0. -
Auonst t,
. g q the last da theaccounts delivered
.to them,
amount received from
o the last day of August, and it
in° a subsequent period of the year, from
y 0 December, three-fourths of the

Mr. 'Woodruff seconded the amendment, which, on a
division, was carried by 28 to 15.
Mr. Clint asked in what position the borough engineer
stood in regard to that body. He asked this question
from a report that he had seen in the papers of the
proceedings of the Tosteth Park Board of Health.
lie would like to know if the Council receives
any benefit from Mr. Newland's services, to the Toxteth
Board.

Mr. Dover said the Council had sanctioned the borough
engineer to give his services to some of the out town—
ships for the benefit of the public. They did not know
directly whether he got money for his services, but it
would not be supposed that he would give his services
gratis. There was a case the other day where the Burial
Board for Warded a small sum to the Health Committee
for the engineer. There was no doubt that the terms
upon which Mr. Newlands were engaged, that he was to

.)
give his whole services to the Corporation. But it was
considered by the Council to be for the benefit of the
public, that he should give his service to the out town-
ships. The Corporation got no benefit from these
services.

Mr. Picton said it was for the good of the public at
large that there should be one system of dniinage, and
Mr. Newlands was allowed to give his services for this
and other objects for the good of the town and district.
lie was astonished at the resolution of the Toxteth Board
of Health appointing Mr Newlands as honorary engineer,
when the fact was that he was paid for his services. He
thought the matter should be put upon its right footing..
Mr. Avison said it did not arise from the out-townships,
but from the Corporation passing a resolution that there
should be one uniform system of drainage. There was
be
eo fixedconsidered
charge
in allowed wed
serviceto
o Mr.f a"An'ey‘bv loadnyd sb,
uats
thbee ccoouul dn
eniot l ;
and, although he had rendered very valuable services te.
the Board of Health, he had not received a farthing for
it yet.

In answer to a guestion put by Mr. Wocdruffe, the Chairman of the Committee said they had taken the
memorial of the watchers into consideration, but, for
reasons that had already been given, they could not
continue their services, but between 70 and 80 of them
were employed.

Mr. Robertson Gladstone wished to know whether
the proceedings had been regularly confirmed.
Several Councillors said that the proceedings had been
carried, which was confirmed, after some discussion, by
the Mayor, Mr. Gladstone asserting- that lie had never
heard them put to the council.
On the motion of Mr. Alderman S. Holme_, the council
was adjourned until Wednesday next, when the remainder
of the business will be disposed of.

In Genoa a vessel was launched some days ago, and
named ccA. Milano," after the soldier who attempted
smile time ago to assassinate the King of Naples. The
authorities at once interfered, and ordered that a name
calculated to excite the legitimate complaints of an ally,
should be removed. The vessel was consequently re-
christened " L'Unito."

Those who are anxious to add to the. decorations. they
already wear the tribute of the Turkish. government to
their gallantry, will be glad to. hear (says the Unita
Service Gazette) that forty-seven thousand medals have
arrived for distribution to the British army and navy.
They are very small, with a ring attached, for facilitating
suspension. On the obverse of the medal are three
cannons and three flags on the reverse the name of the
Sultan.

Lamartine's subscription lags heavily, but his earnings
continue great. The Siecle publishes its seventh Lamar—
tine subscription list. Thashe,.idivorsiaiytio.pnasuiaLroaravaerrtYinalenathisll.
The highest sum appears to be 100 f, and the lowest one
penny, or ten centimes. The most freqelnltclatuuatrothesisyatrh,eca,9lo3,
5f., 20f. As a contrast to this a paragraph. S
Hachette, the publisher,
yorri4,i3tes;.o4,ot4Oroe,f,,:ancs (.414:Qi.',0) for his

CA .64N,

NOTICE TO EMIGRANTS AND OTHERS,
TRACY AND BALDWIN,
Emigration Agents,
No. 60, WATERLOO-ROAD, LIVERPOOL.
Despatch the following splendid ships punctually

LINE OF PACKETS,

THE "BLACK BALI
Sailing on the First and Si
FOR NEW YORK

ISAAC WEBB C. Hutchinson .. 1450 tons.. January A.
COLUMBIA.. • ..... James Bryant ..1100 tons January 16.
FIDELIA
YORKSHIRE J Fairbanks .. ..1050 tons.. February 1.
HARVEST QUEEN .. E. Young .. ....1600 tons . February 16.
NEPTUNE .. .. E. W. Peabody.. 1650 tons. March 1.
JAMES FOSTER, Jun.. E. Abed.. ......1600 tons.. March 16.
MANHATTAN T. Dixon 1450 tons.. April 1.
The above-named ships are of the finest and largest class, were all
built in New York of the best and most costly materials, and com-
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by men of character and experience, who will take every precaution
to promote the health and comfort of the passengers during the
voyage. Private rooms for families or persons who wish to be more
select can be had, and deposits of El each to secure berths, should
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For Fares, and to secure Berths, either in the Steerage, Second
abin, or Pnvate Rooms for Families, apply, post paid to and fro, to
TRACY & BALDWIN, 60, Waterloo-road.

Quickest and C
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Will sail daily from the New North Landing Stage for RHYL.
Passengers booked.through from Liverpool to Abergele and back.
From the New Landing Stage, From the Voryd,
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January January
Thursday ..... 6.... at 930 p.m. Friday 7 at 11 30 a.m
Saturday 8 at 16 30 a.ni.

Saloon C

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For further particulars, apply at the Company's Offices, No. 5,
George's Dock Gates, Liverpool ; or at the Company's Offices,
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Steam communication to and from LIVERPOOL and LONDON,
calling at PENZANCE, FALMOUTH, PLYMOUTH, PORTS-
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EMPRESS EUGENIE 750 tons 100 h.p. Capt. Hoskins.
NORTH SEA 750 Capt. Kruger.
GENOVA 650 120 Capt. Dempsey.
ROSE 650 250 Capt. Higgins.
The London and Liverpool Steam-ship Company
beg to announce their intention of despatching one
of their powerful steamers from each port as under,
.i. _ , unless prevented by any unforeseen occurrence :
~S, FROM LIVERPOOL,
January

EMPRESS EUGENIE -2- ..Wednesday 1 at 3 p.m.
NORTH SEA . Saturday 29 at 10 p.m.
EMPRESS EUGENIE Saturday 29 at 7 p.m.
Loading berth : Liverpool, east side Clarence Basin London :
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These vessels arc all first-class, and have superior accommodation
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freigfit'oT passage, apply to the agents

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