Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS. TUESDAY,

Their Lordships met at five o'clock, and were engaged for
two hours in discussing on the propriety of re-committing a
private bill, the preamble of which had been declared to be
passed without hearing the counsel for the petitioners.
The several bills on the table were advanced a stage, and
the following were, read a third time and passed :
The Savings' Bank (Ireland) Act Bill, the Indemnity
Bill, and the Notting,ham Charities Bill.
Their Lordships adjourned at half-past seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY.
The Speaker took the chair at four o'clock.
On the motion for the second reading of the Appropria-
tion Bill, .
Sir B. Hall asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether
he would have any objections to state to the House the
reasons which had led to the dismissal of Captain Carnegie
from the office of one of the Lords of the Admiralty, and
whether Admiral Sir. Richard Dundas had also tendered his
resignation, and had since been induced to remain. Also,.
to ask for the name or names of the officers appointed to
fill the vacancy or vacancies. He had, he stated,
been informed that Sir Richard Dundas had been
requested, at the approaching election, to stand for the
borough of Dover. Sir Richard declined, and, on
being. further pressed, had. tendered , his resignation.
Captain Carnegie was then urged to go down to Dover,
but was informed, by a confidential agent, that he would
have no chance of success ; he therefore declined to contest the
borough. After further pressure he resigned. He (Sir B.
Hall) . had that day received a telegpahic message- from
Captain Carnegie stating that he had not been dismissed,
but that he had resigned in consequence of a difference of
opinion as to what place he should represent. Sir
W. Hoyte and Captain Mandey were asked to go to
Dover, but both refused. Sir J. Herbert was then asked,
but he was sent to Dartmouth. Sir H. Leeke was then sent
for, bnt he was sent to Devonport, where he had a relative
who was a government contractor. He found, however,
that the dockyard men would not support him ;
subsequently he stated to the electors that he had been made
a Lord of the Admiralty, and that he would take care that
the electors should have a share, in the perquisites now
monopolised by Portsmouth. The manoeuvre was unsuc-
cessful, and he had now been sent to Dover. Two other
naval lords were similarly treated in the same manner.
Admiral Martin had expressed a desire to retire, and Sir
R. Divides had accordingly retired, but subsequently been
induced to remain. Admiral Bruce was sent for, but with-
out result. If these statements were true, the - effect of
;.11 .Tie proceedings would be to throw our service of the navy
into utter confusion.
Sir J. Pakington reprobated such questions in that house.
Communications took place on the formation of every
government, which ought not ;to be made a subject of public
discussion. lie was, however, on the present occasion
quite ready to answer the question. He had long expressed
an opinion that the Admiralty should be represented in
Parliament by some of the senior lords. This proved
the case with respect to previous boards; in no
way more efficient than the present board. Havino.
'to fill up the office left vacant by Mr. Druminoncf,
he asked Captain Carnegie to accept it ; at the same time
he stated that he felt it a considerable disadvantage that
of the members of the board were in Parliament, and
ked Captain Carnegie if he would be willing to enter
.ament if required. Captain Carnegie requir6d two
days to consider, after which he accepted the office with
those conditions. Matters rested thus until the dissolution
was determined upon, and he then reminded Captain
Carnegie of .his promise. .„Captain Carnegie showed a hesi—
tation which he did not expect, and after three days declined
to fulfil the conditions on which he had undertaken office.
Captain Carnegie then tendered his resignation which he
(Sir J. Pakington) at once accepted. He felt that the
resignation was no compensation for the breach of engage-
ment, which he could not reconcile with the high sense of
honour belonging to Captain Carnegie. As to Sir R.
Dundas, he had a conversation with that officer; and then
pointed out to him the advantages, which he had
referred to, of having, as a lord of the admiralty,
a seat in Parliament, and proposed three eligible places for
which he could stand. Sir R. Dundas, after reflection, said
that he could not stand for either of the places
.mentioned,
but that he recognised the advantages of a naval member
of the board being in Parliament, and he, in consequence,
offered to resign in favour of any person who could fulfil
that condition. He (Sir J. Pakington) felt inclined at first
to accept the offer thus handsomely given, but circumstances,
unconnected with politics or electioneering, occurred after-
wards, which caused him to retain the services of Sir R.
Dundas. He then, therefore, proposed to that officer to
retain his seat, a proposal which was at once accepted. He
bore testimony to the high character of Sir R Dundas
throughout the whole of these transactions,, and appealed to
the allegations of Sir B. Hall, as regarded the movements
of Sir H. Leeke, who had replaced Captain Carnegie at the
Admiralty. Sir H. Leeke had gone, it appeared, from
Devonport to Dover, but the move on his part was not
authorised by, or even known to, the Admiralty, till
some time after it took place. It had been said
that the process of threatening the expulsion of members
of the Board of Admiralty if they did not accept seats in Par-
liament was carried still further—this was not true. Admi-
ral Martin had certainly offered to resign, but that offer
was made altogether upon personal grounds.
Admiral Duncombe.said, that an offer of a seat at the
Board had been made him when the ministry came into
office, but in such a manner that it was impossible for him
to undertake it. He was required to take a position which
was unbecoming his naval rank.
Mr. B. Osborne said, that the first lord had shown more
zeal than *".„prudence, in thus mixing himself up
with electioneering matters at the present moment
As to Captain Carnegie, he (Mr. Osborne) knew
enough of that officer, to feel sure that he would
perform anything that he • had undertaken What
were the eligible seats offered to Captain Carnegie ?
Had the government any right, for instance, to consider
Dover a government seat. A. more serious question arose as
to the political jobbing of the Board of Admiralty. After
the revelations which had been made, no future parliament
would allow the Board of Admiralty to remain as it was
He would support any proposal for inquiry into the consti-
tution of that board, an inquiry which he had hitherto

none
he as],
Parli

opposed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer urged the great incon-
venience of not having a naval member of the Board of
Admiralty in Parliament—an inconvenience which had not
occurred under previous administrations. It was the inte-
rest of the House of Commons that every department of the
administration should be adequately represented in that
house. They had suffered from the inconvenience for
twelve months, and it was not surprising if her Majesty's
government endeavoured to remedy it. The subject had
been under consideration long before any dissolution was
thought of. He confirmed, from a private conversation
with Captain Carnegie, the statement of Sir J. Pakington,
with regard to that officer.
Sir G. Grey declared, from personal knowledge of Captain
Carnegie, that that officer was incapable of violating an
engagement into which he had entered.
Sir C. Napier protested against the Lords of the Admiralty
being thus sent about from one body to another.
After some observations from Lord C. Hamilton,
Sir E. Perry protested against the manner in which the
naval boroughs were treated by the Government of Lord
Derby.
After some farther discussion the subject dropped, and
the bill was read a second time.
The Exchequer Bills, £13,277,400 bill was read a second

words a limited meaning which they were never intended to
have in general usage. As to the ballot, he felt more than
ever disposed against it; as it now appeared, it was to be
not optional, but imperative ; they would make a general
election like a Quaker's meeting—performed in solemn
silence. The ballot, instead of promoting the purity of
election, would be the source of constant fraud, falsehood,
and corruption. The same coercion now used to extort
votes would, under the ballot, be used to extort promises.
The same argument used in favour of secret voting in elec-
tions, would be applied to votes given in that house.
• Mr. A. Mills opposed the motion, which was supported by
Mr. Coning,ham.
Mr. H. Berkeley replied, characterising the speech of
Lord Palmerston as the most flagrant and injudicious rub-
bish he had ever uttered in his most jaunty days.
The house divided, when the motion was negatived by
102 to 99; majority 3.
The result was received with loud cheers by the opposi-

tion.
Mr. Monsell put a question to the Secretary to the
Treasury, with reference to a sum of money which the
County of Limerick has illetrally been compelled to pay on
account of its extra police force. He further asked if it
was intended to make any alteration in the present system.
Sir S. Northcote replied that the el tire police force was
established in strict accordance with the act of 1848, re-
lating to disturbed districts in Ireland. It was perfectly
legal, and there was no intention of taking any steps to

alter it.
The other business was then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at ten minutes to ten.

--.-...............-^..."

REFORM CONFERENCE IN

MANCHESTER.

,
Yesterday afternoon, a large conference of the members
of the Lancashire Reform Union, was held in the Free
Trade Hall Assembly Rooms, at which Mr. John Bright,
M.P., was present. Mr. George Wilson, chairman of the
Union, presided, and after the minutes of the previous
meeting had been read and confirmed, he said he totally
denied that the appeal now being made by Lord Derby was
not one; to the country, but simply `,one to the 1,200,000 of
electors. It was not an appeal even to the householders,
but the £lO electors in boroughs, and the tenants as well
in counties. To the land agents, and land stewards, to the
electors of Thelford, and fifty-five other small boroughs
Brig.ht's bill would disfranchise. (Cheers.) To such

which Mr

-0 appeals tiie object of the Lancashire Reformers Union
would put a stop. (Hear.) He knew that if the prayer of
every petition presented to the House of Commons for
reform was known, it would be for such a bill as that
brought forward by Mr. Bright.
Mr. Geo. Thompson read an add

(Applause.) -
ress from the Lancashire

Reformers Union to the country, stating that the issue upon
which Lord Derby was going to the country was on reform

de novo

Sir E. Armitage moved that the address be printed and
blished. _

Mr. II

Ashworth s

leconded the resolution, and it was

carried unanimously.
Mr. T. B. Potter moved the best thanks of the meeting to
Mr. Bright, for having given to the country his plan o'
reform; and that that meeting pledged itself to ende
to get it passed into law.
/Mr. T

Barnes secolided the resolution, and it was carried

Unanimously

.eceived vd.

Mr. Bright then roses and Aval
long continued cheering. , He sai

abled at a time of intense

That meeting wa

upon what -might be done, touching a. quc

ti on w Inc

shortly might be settled for years, and perhaps for genera-
tions to come. lie should like to know' what people under-
stood by parliamentary reform, and how much of it they
expected to obtain. He had proceeded in the discussion of
this question of reform, in the belief that there was through-
out the whole 'of the middle and working classes of this
country, the positive belief that parliament, "as it now
existed, was not careful of the people's money— (hear, hear,
and cheers)—and that it does not, on the legislation of
home affairs, and in foreign politics in many cases, repre-
sent truly the public mind. Since he was last in that hall,

hey had seen what might be called a good deal of the inner
ife of parliament. They had had, from what boasted itself
he largest party, a cabinet proposition for parliamentary
'eform. (Laughter.) lle. would not stay for a minute. to
lescribe it. (Laughter.) Its character was tad, and its
'eatures so ugly, that those who ought to have been its
identls, were anxious that it should be put under ground as
icon as possible. This bill was not to give you a more
popular representation, but, as Lord Derby once expressed
himself, to stein the tide of democracy which threat

ens to

submerge the country. (Laughter.) And this, .uora
Derby, the present premier, by parliamentary accidents, a
PT 1

few days ago,.stood up in the liouse of torus, ana mace
speech, in which he treated the people of this country with
absolute contempt. lie treated them in no favour, and as
though they were enemies to the throne and the constitution.
Why, there was no monopoly of loyalty in Lord Derby's
order. (Cheers.) The time might come when his (Lord
Derby's) order and his (Mr. Bright's) might come in closer
conflict. If Lord Derby's order were left alone in this
Island, where would be the British nation ? (Loud cheers.)
lie (Mr. B.) did not want to promote and discuss questions
like this, but if Lord Derby chose to cast his taunts upon
their (Mr. B.'s) order, the people of the United Kingdom,
let him (Mr. B.) tell him (Lord Derby), from that platform,

that there was a power in the state vastly greater man ins
(Tremendous applause.) , They had now the ad-
. of knowing what the present government thought
ofreform, and they had also heard it said that reform was
a question which was now no longer one of those in the
government wallet (Laughter.) Now, he (Mr. B.) did
not want anything of the kind whatever from that
manufactory again. Ho should just as soon think of going
for his confectionary to that unhappy individual who sold
the celebrated Bradford lozenges--(laughter and cheers)—
as to Lord Derby for a Reform Bill. The question before
the country was• not one that could be settled by Lord

vantag

ie sam

able to allow other parties to coin

for the

h at cIE