Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-03-16 00:00:00

Moss : I'allude to you not haying given the medical

gentlemen the notice.
Mr. Cleaver : There you and I cliff(
The,Chairman said, if they had

ay charge to make

ust Mr

leaver, they had better do :it ope:

Mr. Johns

No, they -won't do that, it's a lif,

To piece of

radicalism

No honest man would he guilty of-such a

Vic Chairman called Mr. Johns to .order, but with some
difficulty acquired this desideratum, as Air. Johns would
not allow the quietus to be put upon him, until he had
manfully asserted that as long as he, sat at that board he

would Maintain an honest course.
The Chairman called upon Mr
the expression, "No honest man woi
thing."_ _ _

Johns to withdraw

1 be guilty of such a

Mfr. Johns : I will not withdraw it

You may miscon-

strue it or contract it as you like.
The Chairman: Well then, these are not fit expressions
to be used at this board. They are very unseemly.
A termination was then brought to this " cross firing."
Mr. Moss moved that it be understood, that the medical
gentlemen be appointed, subject to three months' notice, if
agreeable to the Poor-law Board.
-This was seconded and agreed to.
Mr. Pitt, one of the candidates, was then called in, and
was questioned by the board as to his qualifications.
Mr. Johns asked if he 'had ever known a joint to be
dislocated for three months, and when it was reset at the
end of three months to make a crack ?
Mr. Pitts, in all his experience, had not heard of such a

a thing

Mr. Johns was proceeding to put some other questions to
Mr. Pitts in hti own pTculiar way, when

Mr. Ogden rose and objected to Mr. Johns putting ques-
tions to me medical gentlemen in such a dictatorial manner,
and so painful to the feelings of the member's of the board.
,Mr. Johns: I am asking a plain question, Mr. Ogdet
and one which I intend to put to all th

Zentlemen

Ur. Ogden : the questions ought to be put through the

chairman

Mr. Johns wrote his question, and gave it to the chair-
man, who repeated it to Mr. Pitts, who, in reply, said that,
in reference to the " crack " or sound, it was possible but
not probable. _ .

Mr. Johns : Well, there is a man here who heard it.
Mr. Moss : We are only disgracing ourselves by asking

such questions
Mr. Millar : The lan
for a bar parlour.
Mr. Pitt was then requested to retire, and Mr. Finnegan
was called in.

guage used here is more appropriate

In reply to several questions put to him, he said he had
been for a length of time in the Northern Dispensary, and
also in the Royal Infirmary. Ile had gained several medals
and other honours in competitive -examinations. His age
'lr. Johns did not urge upon his question

was 23 year

being pub to

Mr. Finnegan, as to his experience in
0
crackinm,, dislocations. Mr. Moss questioned him on the
subject of matrimony ; and to the question, whether he
intended getting married soon, he answered very evasively,
and said he was not sure upon that point.
Mr. Smith was the next candidate brought in for exami-
nation, and the only fact elicited worth record was, that he
was employed in the Bristol workhouse, and had been there
for upwards of three years.
The fourth and last candidate, Mr. Digby, was then
brought forward, and subjected to a similar examination as
his predecessors, with the exception of the " cracking dis-
location" question. When Mr. Digby had retired,

Mr. Moss moved that Mr. Finnegan be appointed. Mr.
Moss went on to say that he had only formed his opinion of
these gentlemen since he came into the room. Tie found
that he was a very clever young man, had gained many
honours in his profession, and, moreover, was a townsman,
for which reason they ought to give him preference.
He was also abstemious, almost ridiculously
so, and this was a great virtue in young medical men, as
most of them were given to habits of dissipation.
Mr. Ogden : No allusions of that sort.

Mr. Moss : It is a most notorious fact, that young doc-
tors, of all other young men, although disease stares them
in the face, seem to be less careful than other people of

themselve

Mr. Ogden : I say it is false

Mr. Moss was continuing his remarks in favour of Mr.
Finnegan, when several interruptions broke in, such as
" Mr. Johns : It's all trash ; none of your elcetioneering

Mr. Ogden : I am sorry to hear such remarks from Mr

Mr. Grindrod : Its a laboured speech ; its a laboured
speech.

These interruptions broke the thread of Mr. Moss's dis-
course into so many pieces, that he was obliged to pull up
much shorter than he would have wished, and exclaimed,
" These were very extraordinary remarks-"

Mr. Ogden : Well, don't reflect upon the medical gen-
tlemen in that way.

Another Guardian : You are too fond of making speeches.
Mr. Moss concluded by saying that they would not be
doing their duty if they rejected Mr. Finnegan, with such
testimonials.

Mr. Ogden: You are doing him more injury than you

are serving. him

Mr. Johns (to Mr. Moss) : It would be a good job if you
had such testimonials. _

•Mr. Ogden said he thought it exceedingly unbecoming
of any gentleman to rise in the room and applaud the
character of one gentleman at the expense of the great
body of applicants that might have been there, and also to
the profession generally. It was entirely uncalled for.
Mr. Moss said he did not intend, to throw any discredit
on the medical profession. What he meant was, while
leaving perhaps too much stress upon this young man's
abstemiousness, that he was a strong . contrast to other
young men in the profession, who went too far the other
way.

Mr. Ogden : It is uncalled for. •
Mr. Wilson seconded the motion of Mr. Moss.
At this juncture Mr. Johns handed to the chairman .the
following protest against the elector as illegal_

TO THE CHAIRMAN AND GUARDIANS OF THE TOWNSHIP OF

TORTETR PARK

".Toxteth Park, 15th March. 1859.
" Gentlemen,—l, Matthew Augustus Johns, coal agent,
residing at 127, Park-street, being a ratepayer of,Ohe said
township of Toxteth Park, and also having been duly elected
a guardian of the said township, do hereby protest against
the election of any one or more parochial medical officers
being proceeded with, or any appointments be made, con-
trary to the present existing appointments as sanctioned
and confirmed by the Poor-law Commissioners.
" And I further give you notice that, in the event of
your appointing any others than the present parochial
medical officers of the said township previous to the expira-
tion of their tenure of office, I will not be held responsible
for any proportion of expenses owhich may be incurred
in defending any action or actions that may be brought

against the present board of guardians for a breach of con-
tract with the present parochial medical officers.
"And that I also protest against any moneys collected as
poor rates, or any moneys now to the credit of the township
collected as a voluntary rate, being used or applied to such
p urposes."
Mr. Siddeley, Mr. Leyland, and Mr. Grindrod also
handed in similar protests. The latter gentleman took the
occasion of saying that he was glad of the opportunity of
expressing himself on this matter. They were doing that
which was illegal—
Mr. Moss : Ha, ha.

Mr. Grindrod: Don't laugh at me, sir. I will not be
laughed at by you; I don't laugh at you when you are
speaking. 17 will not mix myself up in the brawls in this•
room now, or at any other time.
Mr. Moss Question, question.
Mr. Griudrod : It is the 'question, sir.
Mr. Johns : Yes, it is the question.
The Chairman : I must call upon you to adhere to the
question before us.
Mr. Harrison moved -that Mr. Smith be appointed, and
not Mr- Finnegan.

The motion -was not seconded.
MT. Ogden said they all appeared to he under some apply-

hension." Those protests had thrown a sort of difficniCy in
the way, and he would like to know if they were acting

leT ally

'The Chairman assured the board that whatever had been
done was in accordance with the instructions of the Poor-
law Board.
This restored esnlidence, and the guardians then proceeded
with the election.

Mr, Urquhart, who had come in late, said he would not
vote, as he had not an opportunity of seeing the candi-
dates.

Mr. Finnegan wits elected by a majority of 8 to 2
gentleman protesting did not vote.
Mr. Baynes proposed, and Mr. Johnson seconded, that
Mr. Smith be elected as the medical officer for district
No. 2.

There were ten Totes for Mr. Smith, and he was accord-
declarca elected.

The gentlemen were then called in and acquainted of the
fact. The terms of agreement were read over to them, the
principal point of which was, that •'they were to be paid a
sum of £2OO per annum each. They are to enter-on their
duties on the 27th instant.

Mr. johns moved, that the protests be entered on the
minutes of the proceedings, but the chairman objected.

The meeting then broke up.

•

SELECT VESTRY,

The fortnightly meeting of the Select Vestry was held
at ten O'clock yesterday, the Rev. Rector Campbell in the
chair. The other members present were—Messrs. Owen,
Whitty, William Jones, Denton, Critchley, Scott, Peck,
Chesney, Cafferata, Cooke, Hughes, Smith, Bairstow,
Whitby, Cropper, Hand, Luff, Turner, Jackson, Syred,
Crellin, and Gair.

WORKHOUSE COMM

The proceedings, of this committee were read.

Mr. cropper moved their confirmation.
Mr. Bairstow moved, as an amendment, that that part of
the proceedings which recommended the board to advertise
for a chaplain be not confirmed. He stated that his reason
for doing so was, that he intended that day fortnight to
bring forward a motion, of which he now gave notice, that
the Rev. Isaac Holmes be transferred as chaplain
from the Industrial Schools to the workhouse at
a salary of £250 a year, with £5O for a house. He
therefore thought it necessary that the adVertising for a
chaplain should be deferred until that question had been
decided.

Mr. Cooke seconded the amendment.
After some discussion the amendment was carried by a
majority of 12 to 8. _

the remaining proceedings were confirmed

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS' COMMITTEE

The proceedings were read, and upon the motion of Mr.

Bairstow confirmed

FINANCE COMMITTEE

On the proceedings of this committee being read,
Mr. Owen called attention .to the fact, that on Friday
week a very important bill is to be brought before the
House of Commons, having for its object the rating of
public property to the relief of the poor. There were no
doubt two sides to that very important question, and some
persons who were exceedingly honest and well intentioned,
thought it would be an injury to the town to rate the docks,
while others equally honest and well-intentioned, thought
it just and desirable that the docks should be rated. But
there was a third party which he thought was not deserving
ta inurLy or
persons who were actuated by nothing but the most selfish
fears, and whose conduct throughout this question was
utterly at variance with, and in direct opposition to, the
course which they took upon another question a short time
ago. Who were the most prominent and powerful of the
opponents of the Select Vestry upon the recent question of
rating the docks? He had-in his pocket a report of a
meeting held in St. George's Hall three years ago, one of
the most important which ever took place in the town of
Liverpool. The president and the vice-president of the
Shipowners' Association—the leaders of the commercial
bodies of the town took part in it. Some of the most
leading and determined opponents of the vestry on the
recent question took a share in that meeting, and expressed
their horror at the very idea of the property of the town
being confiscated by Manchester, declaring that an act of
spoliation was about to be perpetrated. These terms, and
others equally harsh and severe, were used towards Man-
chester, which was declared to be most selfish in its pro-
ceedings, inasmuch as it was argued that the town dues had
been applied not for the benefit of the town itself, but for
the improvement of the docks and the advantage of shipping.
They declared that to take away the town dues would not
only be doing a wrong to Liverpool, but would be unsettling
the rights of property, and would be injurious to the
shipping of the port, by driving commerce to other
ports. Now these were the very men who were
boiling with indignation the other day in the
Dock Board at the Select Vestry, because the
vestry presumed, after Manchester had successfully wrested
from the town 41 millions of money for a compensation of
only 14 million, to ask for some small portion of return from
the dock property. These were the men who now told
them that they are amply paid in the 14 million of
compensation whM. they had received. These were
the men who were now to be seen in the lobby
of the House of Commons, hand and glove with the Town-
clerk of Manchester, upon the subject of dock rating. It
was asked at the Dock Board, " Who are the Select
Vestry ? " " Who are the Town Council ? " It might be
asked in return, " Who is the interrogator ? " No doubt
if his geneology were examined, it would be found that he
came of some illustrious line ; perhaps that he could trace
back his descent to the Norman conquest. (Laughter.)
The step which the vestry had taken was no act of folly con-
ceived by themselves alone. They had proceeded upon
the recommendation of the judges of the land. The judges
of the land had over and over declared, some of the highest
of them, that the exemption was unjust in principle, and
called upon the legislature to deal with it. A parliamentary
committee sat upon the question, one of the most impor-
tant committees which was ever formed, presided over by
Sir George Cornewall Lewis, who was not only a financier,
but a statesman and a scholar. He should like to put Sir
George C. Lewis in competition with any of their swagger-
ing local pamphleteers. The Manchester people now pro-
posed that the bill about to be introduced should be confined
solely to Government works. The sum and substance of
that was that it should not include the Liverpool Docks.
He hoped, however, that there would be sufficient spirit
and determination on the part of the ministry and the inde-
pendent members to resist such an iniquitous measure. At
any rate, it must go to the Honse of Lords, and he could
only say as some of those who now opposed the vestry, were
heard so frequently to exclaim three years ago, " Thank
God we have a House of Lords!"

Mr. Bairstow thought it would be very desirable that the
vestry should authorise the finance committee to draw up a
petition in favour of the government bill, to be signed by
the chairman on behalf of the board. He was perfectly con-
vinced that the bill of the government enunciated a sound
principle—that all the property of the country should pay
its fair share towards the burthens of the community. He
referred to the fact that petitions were being got up on
behalf of various literary institutions for exemption from
taxation, and he urged that if any class of institutions
ought to be exempted, it was the penny newsrooms fre-
quented by the working classes, and not the literary club-
rooms, enjoyed chiefly by the wealthy portion of the
community. He thought such institutions as the
Athena3um, the Lyceum, &c., ought to pay their fair
proportion towards the burthens of the community. He
therefore moved that the Finance Committee be authorised
to prepare a petition in favour of the Government bill.

Mr. Jackson seconded the motion, which was unanimously
carried.

The proceedings of the Finance Committee were con-
firmed.

The board then proceeded to the election of a relieving
officer, rendered necessary in consequence of the election of
Mr. Tomlinson cm a former day having been pronounced
informal by the Poor-law Commissioners.

Mr. Cafferata proposed that Mr. William Penn, assistant
relieving officer, be appointed to the office.
Mr. Cropper moved that Mr. Tomlinson be elected.
On a diviston Mr. Penn' was elected' by a majority of 13
to 9.
•
This concluded the business.