Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-07-12 00:00:00

THE! NORTHERN Timrs, TUESDAY, JULY 12 1859

' ' ' •
re3ervedg:rant.. -Bow are the corporation effected ? They
stand as free, notwithstanding this reference, to deal with
the tind in any way as they were. They are open to treat
for itby private contract, :,which I think would be a very
sensible-mode of regociation ; but, failing-that, the dock-
board have no power whatever of choosing the tribunal.
The choice of a. tribunal is exclusively in the hands.of the
corporation ;. the sellers of land may make the election,
Whether they will submit to be assessed by ajury,.er 'whether
they will leaVe it to the arbitration prescribedby the general
'act. It is perfectly emnpetent for the corporation, if they
do-not like the presentarbitrators to appoint any ether
arbitrators, or to go to a lury, if they please. 'But what am I
charged with ?. Why, sir, I do not know whether the
town-clerk has got it, but I asked him to look for it.
There was a written .offer from the dock-board, some time
ago, after they had,got the bill, but before they went to any
.arbitrator at all, to say that,.although I was. the chairman
of the corporation finance committee, they would be per-
fectly willing to pay any price. I put upon the land. The
chairman of the duck board, the solicitor, aud, for aught I
m
know,,some other embers waited upon the finance com-
mittee with this offer, and who objected to accept it ?
I did. (Hear, hear.) I edid. I Would not act in. such a
capacity at present, as I Under Stood that very extraordinary
claims were to be made, and inasmuch as the questhm was
open'. to difference of Opiriion, and very fairly so, even
T 11.1rinrf alto fn

or strong reasons that he was induced. -to---make the
remarks which fell from him on \ Pednesday last. He was
told that he should have given I‘l, r. Ste Wart notice of his
intention of bringing this matter f 4 irward. But intimation
was required only where time was) required for reference 'to
books and documents. Mr. Stewart ; had all the information
necessary in his person ; and if he I lad been present, would
have been able to answer him without any previous intima-
tion. The absence of a gentle Men s hould not deter hi:n, or
any other member of the corporation, froM calling„attention
to that in which the council was in ';erested, and by which
its interests were prejudiced, and in , which delay might be
injurious. He asked, did not Mr. Sten 'art obtai 'information,
by virtue of his office as chairman of th e finance committee, of
which no other member was in possesSio n, with reference to the
valhe of l end belonging to the corporati, M,whether the Mersey
dock board had any interest, prospec lively or immediately
in Vie value Of land belonging to that corporation
on the other side of the river? Was it probable or
possible that the question would tome b efore arbitrators 'Who
might be sitting in judgment to ass oss the value of the
land ? It was. He took it that these v rere questions he was
justified in answering in the way he bad done. Was Mr.
Stewart sitting as one of the arbitr atorss nominally so
called, but practically an advocate of the Mersey Dock
Board? He subinitted, with all due deference and respect to
Mr. Stewart, that he was. Was it his (Mr. StewareS) duty
to get the property so submitted to arbitration

One or

between the most honest men, •1 would not undertaKe
settle the price to be paid to the corporation; because I would
wait and see what was the general value obtained' for land
in the neighbourhood ; and the corporation should be dealt
with accordingly. I therefore refused to accept theoffer,

the other sitting as sellers were represented by an. arbitrator;
and endeavouring to get the highest poSsiblo price, and the
buyers at the losvest possible price. He submitted that i
snch a position as that n which Mr. Stewart was placed in,
was adverse to the interests of the corporation. He said,
in conclusion, that he had no intention whatever of referring
to Mr. Stewart personally ; for he 'believed there was no
,gentleman in. the council who commanded more respect
from the memlwrs individually and colleeliVely than did
Mr. Stewart. (Hear, hear.) He would say,"further, that
if he had a question of property to be referred for valuation
or arbitration to one individual, he would refer it to Mr.
Stewart before any other gentleman in the town. He
would then feel his responsbility and deal equitably in the
matter] havitig-the interest of both sides in his hands. Mr.
Stewart, he believed, had more extensive knowledge, and
his judgment was more sound, than almost any- other
gentleman that he knew of in the town. But in
this case equity would hive to be thrown aside for
the piiipose of - advocating the side for which he was
retained. Whether Mr. Stewart was on the side of
the buyer or the seller, he held that he should not occupy,

while expressing my pleasUre at the confidence which had
been.shown in me.,..Probablfsome members of the finance
committee may recollect the circumstances, at all events the
letter is h6re. The. whole question between the corporation
and the dock board is as yet free6f arbitiatibn. The council

;can deal with' it in any way they please, ; I have dealt
lietweenindividuals, and it is.the first time in my life, after
more than forty-four years experience in business, that I
ever before heard anything like the insinua,*

ion, which,

although probably conveyed in pretty courteous terms, yet
does .mean .that I, .for the purpose of being the paid
advocate of the dock board, would sink or sacrifice the
corporation interests. If I did so, I.should,. of course, be
unworthy to fill the chair of the finance committee. I never
sought for that position, and, While I have received every
courtesy from the committee, I must say, that I cannot
quite understand, when I am devoting, the 'best energies I
have to the services of the council an the public, I should

he made the subject. of insinuations such as those to which
I. refer. (Um, hear.) I think that it is rather
a hard measure to be taunted in this- sort•of way,
and tp.have matters. brought forward as charges against me.
(Rear, hear.) I think,• if the thing had been understood,
-• • •
it would not have been done,; and the corporation I am
. .
quite sure, will not be at all prejudwpd by any act-which I
have done. (Hear, hear.) They;; an go .to .a Tory

a-position that was adverse to the interests of tne corpora-
tion. Mr. Jeffery Wa3 proceeding to enter into some
e?cplanation, but the Mayor interposed, as he considered
enough had been said
In

?ly to a question from. Mr. Jeffery, Mr. Stewart
_aid that he had never given his opinion either to. the
umpire, arbitrator, or any mortal being, with reference to
this matter. .MNRKETS' COMMITTEE.
Tt '1
The proceedings of the markets' committee were read, corn.

prising :—Report of the treasurer on the acee,.._
John' s Market. Recommendation to appoint Mr. I. Hutchin-
son as in_ speotor of all the markets, at a salary of £250 per
annum. Recommendation to appoint Mr. James Stone-
house manager of St. John'se-and all the other markets in
the centre of the town, at A.ssalary
.of £2.20 per annum.
Recommendation to appoint a Managers of. St, James', and
all other markets in the.southern division of the town, at a
-. salary of £ 2
salary of L12:5 per annum..' Recommendation to appoint a
manager of markets in the northern Of the town, at
'per
the annum:salary
of R:l6ooompme
re nadnaniiiiomn
,etalci.
each.
t. two
a
persons be appointed as collectors of St. John's, and the
central
markets,
15
at
Mr. Johnson; in moving the adoption of the report of
the treasurer on the accounts of St. John's Market, said the
proceedings of the markets' committee were very long ; and
in proceeding to move their adoption, he would remark;
first, that the treasurer had submitted an account
of all the defalcations that he had been able-
to discover, the average amount of which was £3,197 Is. 51.
These defalcations had been going on from 1848, about the
second quarter from the appointment of Mr. Bally as
auditor.• -The treasurer had also gone through the books of
Mr. Hutchinson,. of the south market, and. also through the
books of Mr. St _ _sees sii a virl, '
were found -to hi
creditable to them.: .
Mr. Isaac Hutchinson as inspector of the markets.
. ,Mr. Jeffery, asked if the chairman of the markets' com-
mittee was about to take up the several recommendations
seriatim. He did not think that he was right in bringiug
„
in his repoit under six heads.
• Mr. • Stitt said he could not see how such defalcations
could hasie taken place without collusion on the part of the
other officers. From the report it appeared that, instead of
the parties mentioned being simply, requested to send in
their resignation, they should have been peremptorily dis-
missed from their places.. He could not see on what
ground. they deserved such consideration.
Mr. Jeffery said he thought' the report justified the
conduct of some members who found themselves in the
minority on a former occasion. On that occasion those who
were in the minority thought that the markets' committee
should be re-constituted, and he thought, at the present
time, that was the opinion of many gentlemen then in the
majority. He believed those who voted with him would
have found themselves. in the majority, instead of
being in the minority, and.. every gentleman in
the council would vote as he pleased, and according to his
own conviction of what was right. -
Mr. Turner : That is a serious charge.
The Mayor : Mr. Jeff. ry, Mr. Jeffery, you are too warm.
Mr. Jeffery : I think, Mr. Mayor, you are somewhat too
quick upon me, I had not finished my sentence.
The Mayor : I am not, sir.
Mr. Jeffery Said; he took it to be correct that they had Mrs Jeffery went on to say that some members of the
sent in a claim for £50,000, subject to a ljudication ; not council allowed their feelings of sympathy to control their
sihertherit-sheuld be 'inCreaSed, but whether it should be votes, instead of following the dictates of their duty.
•
diminished. The corporation, among ether parties, were That he took to beperfectly parli mer .
had it from the lips of - c a 'tam% He
interested in land on. the' Margin of the Birkenhead-pool, . . several gentlemen who were
• found in the majority on that occasion. He hoped
but they were not the first •to 'have °their claim,
that, after the
long report which had been read
settled by. arbitration. The arbitration lied commenced .
as .to the value of the land. • required at the
e , would longer allow feeling: their,
gentlemen no their or
sympathies to supersede their duty, as public man, but that
Birkenhead.docks. .lits.did not understand Mr. Stewart to'
their
.duty should stand paramount to .every other considera-
deny that he was selected as arbitrator for. them.. He used .
the word advocate becauee. he understood the, constitution tion. He concluded by hoping the -committee would be
.
of this - arbitration was not in accordance with reconstructed:,
arbitraticiu,: generally, in matterp of a similar kind.. Hodgson thought the markets committee were
Ile was told that, before the two arbitrators proceeded to to blame in the whole matter. It was a very
their business, they were called upon to appoint a gentle- remarkable • fact that, according to Mr. Tweedie,
man who would act as umpire. That was the universal alterations had been going on from year to year.
practice pursued- by parties, to whom questions 'in; dispute It was perfectly clear,- under these circumstances,
were -referred ; and Wives usual that two out of threeshould the committee was to blame. There was not a shopkeeper
decide the question at issue. But he understood that that was in Liverpool that would allow such defalcations to go on
not the casein the present instance. He was told that when the without discovery. Why blame this man or that man after
statements of both sides were heard, each party being re- he had ran away ? and not till he had ran away had it been
presented by council, the gentlemen on the right hand and discovered that he was deficient one 'shilling. Men Came to
on the' left ceased to be arbitrators. He asked what the council who were 'members of the markets committee,
position did these two gentlemen hold, if - the 'third and spoke of their great prudence, and all that; and yet
were allowed to withdraw, and he gave his sole deci- these very men never knew that this man had robbed them
Sion, -and that sole . decision to be - final. He knew of thousands of pounds. They never knew that the books
no other term to apply to these gentlemen on the right were kept in such an order that, a common potato shop
and 'on the . left but advocates,—the sine being the would have been ashamed of them. He would -ask how
teller and the other the buyer. 'lf these gentlemen received many .have
of the markets committee had examined the
remuneration ,for their services rendered, which they were books from week to week, to see if they were corrector
entitled to, then they were paid advocates. • If -the two otherwise ? He was sure not one of them, or they would
ceased to be arbitrators they became advocates. He did have seen that all was not right. .
ant say this offensively; for one moment..; He had not the Mr. Johnson said : Mr. Hodson had alluded to the
slightest desire to give Mr. Stewart the least possible offence neglect of the markets' committee, in not looking at the
But the gentleman who occupied the chair of the finance hooks regularly. He would ask the town-clerk whether
-Committee, a gentleman who was their municipal. premier, they had not recorded resolutions on their books from time
their firstlord of the treasury, their chancellor of exchequer, to tithe, calling on the auditor to know whether he had a
the leader- of theeouncil, should be exalted high above all; perfect check on the accounts ; and his unvariable report
suspicion, and it was because Ile,' Mr. Jeffery, was sensible' , was that he had f. mud the books all correct. Tie would ask
of the buzzing that there was oet of doors, and the'rumours any other committee if they had their books laid ' before
that this matter had given rise to : it was, because he, as a them aria examined weekly ? .
• . ~ .
member of the committee, was jealous that a gentleman Mr. Hodson : Yes.
occapying his (Mr.. Stewart's) high position in the coun- - Mr. Johnson : I would say ne,,not the fall books, but
cif, should be' above suspicion, that he brought the question abstracts.
forward, he believed it to be their. duties, as members of the The resolution was then confirmed.
council, to take care that that office was not permitted to have Mr. Johnson then proceeded to move the next recoils-
-its dignity or its honours fritted away by private gossip or by mendation. •
public ,
statement. Therefore he felt it inenmbent.upon him, if ~ Me. Gladstone said, before going further with the
there wasanygeound forsischastatement,tobring the question he would like that the town-clerk should read a resolution
before the council fearlessly, in order that the chairman of which had been.passed, condemning the appointment of a
the committee might put himself right, and say if be . (Mr. superintendent, k a
Stewart) had had got into the position inadvertently, for he The Town-clerk then read from the minute-bofo
which
would not charge him with putting himself into a false solution, bearing date February 2nd, the eeffiect ck_
to
the
position designedly. • .He believed Mr, Stewart was in a was that so much of the resolution_ as
bre d
reerfreerred back
false position, but he believed it to be by inadvertence, for 1 appointment of a general superintendent
he could ,not quite understand from Mr. Stewart's previous I to committee for further consideration.b remembered that, at
conduct that he would accept such a position as he had I Mr. Johnson said, it ought
with Id _
ill ers. T ley had
Stewart for him than against him on this question, because he Mr. Luya at the time, but saddle hey . now proposed to be relieved
Mr. Hutchinson as general superin-
valued his evidence and his experience; but he claimed that of them, hy putting
the mrkets at a salary of L 250 a-year •
evidence and that experience, as a member of that council, for tendent over all
ins his I t .1.1 h • '
p ace a t e sout market •
the benefit. of that corporation, so long as Mr. Stewart put Mr. Stonehouse
• d the position of chairman of the finance committee. making such general . change
se,
-will l -the
as on y cost council
occupied r for the salaries. There were some reasons why
The information which any gentleman occupying Mr. £920 a-yea
not be left standing
over to the next
Stewart's position, as chairman of the finance committee, the matter should
obtained, was the property of the corporation, and not his monthly council. .
d th ssht th
what, did he understand by corporate M. Gladstone sal chi oue ere was a question which
property. Then „
.. _ any
take recedenc o that matter, which was whether
services otagentiemen but for the purpose would p
body retaining the _ ,
' n of advertising for the best man had not been
of giving what information h e possesses,.
and which he had the occasion
obtained from his position f in the council )overlooked ) In the first
It was unwise,
to
it was injudicious, and .
it Was improper, to the prejudice of before itsatisfy the mouths of those who were not mem.
markets' committee, that Mr. Hutchinson was the
the corporation that the c .
hairmati of the finance committee, hers of the
'man, and the most suitable person. It appeared that he
who was in the secret of tha price they should take. for the best
4 isi se of, should•it the, same - 'nod held the situation market, and,
preperty that they had. 01.31 P° „ this
he moths aware, he had ilkhargesi his daty very well ;
OM bootee the buyee /ma seller of property. It *AI' Iso 'far as
.

arbitrators, if they think it wise. I only wish. that the
dock hoard may get the land for a fair, full, outside 'price ; -
hat I have no fear that they will get it lOr less. I only
fear that they will not get it for that. lam sorry to have
taken up the time of the council. It is very much out of
my usual- course to do so To discuss questions of this sort,
is very.hurtful to me;' and I would much rather have been
spared the necessity of making these few remarks upon'
such a subject.. (Cries of hear, hear, and applause.)
• Mr. Jeffery said it was so doubt very much to be depre-
cated that the time of the council should be taken up on any
occasion" by'refehnee of members of that body to anonymous
letters that might appear in yublic print. . It- was to
flint notice thby owed -a portton at least of, the time

'which was occupteu at inc „„„„n,
and again of the reply made by 11r. Stewart to them
within the last few minutes. If •no notice had
been taken of that letter by a member of the . finance com 7
rnittee; ,he would certainly not have felt it his duty to have
replied .to it. But it was his .duty, under the circumstances,
to have taken such notice of the remarks that fell,from Mr.
Steams 9n that occasion, in justification of himself. He.
had received a. letter th'at morning from one of the
gentlemen, who• was a member of the
.deputation;
thanking him for the e3planation he had made, and.
endorsing every word that he uttered. Such Was the impres-
sion of the gentleman. aS a member of the d'epu.tation, and •
-such .he stated • to "be the impressions of those who consti-
tuted that deputation. Mr. Stewart had • given his
reply to it. The explanation, he was • perfectly sure, the
deputation would receive, as it was offered with all the frank-
ness with which he. (Mr. Stewart) could offer it. (Hear.) He
ventured, to dismiss this topic, with expressing a hope that no
member of the council would again take any notice of
anonyMous letters: He turned to another matter of more
.vital importance as affecting the interests of the Corporation.
He had ventured to state to that council that the chairman
of the finance committee was sitting as arbitrator upon a
matter wherein the corparation would very soc.,,edily
bee )me materially interested. Mr. Stewart had not
- gainsaid that. As he understood -Mr. Stewart, the
extent of their interest was 61 acres on the Birkenhead side
on the martin of the pool.
• Mr. Stewart explained that those 61 acres were under
lease, and included more than the dock board had power
over. There was 'perhaps about ene half of it involved.
. .

,tonehouse,

correct; an

'he next was a reso

o appoiu

Mr. Jeffery, understood the_ depaty. chairman •of the
finance Committee that they had sent in a dpinand,
with other TandOWners, to the extent of 250,000, for land on
the Birkenhead side of the water.

Mr. Samael Tiolme said, he stated that it was formal
claim they had sent in for something like that amount, but
the whole matter was to be arranged by subsequent adjust-
ment: Bat, he'added, it would be impossible to adjust it
before coming before the council.