Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-07 00:00:00

. .
been referred tO. Tt- was all very well, but it was only
be6ause he had asserted himself a free man, willing to do what
was proper, and what he thought was right, that he was
treated with contempt by Mr. Gladstone and Mr.
Jeffery. He would say that he had discharged his duty
with a conscientious feeling of what was right as any mem-
ber of that council. He regretted that any gentleman
should come there full of revengeful feelings, ready to wreck
it oat on the first man that was opposed to him.
He trusted that a more gentlemanly spirit would
exist in the breast of the members of the
council in future. An allusion had been made to the
permitting officers to receive a present. He quite agreed
with the feeling expressed. Mr. Luya had received a tes-
timonial, but he would like to know if Mr. Gladstone ever
told him that it was improper. On the watch committee
he knew there was a rule against any officer receiving a
testimonial or other present, unless by the sanction of the
committee, but he would not wish to condemn a man for an
act which you permit him to do, and even sanction. He
would not trespass on their time, as any further remarks
he had to offer would come better on his moving the next
resolution.

The votes were then taken, 33 voting for the resolution,
and 15 against. The members voted as follows :
For : Aldermen Bennett, Bold, Dover, Parker, Cooper,
Turner, Gardner, Houghton, Toulmin, and the Mayor.
Councillors : Messrs. Anderson, Woodruff, Crellin, Hay-
dock, Barton, Chas. Turner, Littledale, Tyrer, Jas. Holme,
Rae, Jeffreys, Graves, Shand, Wagstaff, Tobin, Kitchen,
Clint, Aikin, Robertson, Farnworth, Anthony, Vernon, and
Cropper-33.
Against : Alderman Chilton. Councillors : Messrs.
Stitt, Shiel, Corbally, Steaks, Ryley, Avison, Bowring,
Ridley, Rogers, Job, Gladstone, Jeffery, Hodson, and
Beckwith-15.
' Mr. Woodruff moved the above resolution with reference
to Mr. Luya. He said, in moving the resolution as a
member of the committee; he objected, in the outset, to the
mode of inquiry. He told them that, in his mind, there
was no specific charge against Mr. Luya, and that they were
making up an indictment as they went on. They went on
to call men as witnesses who had been censured by
Mr. Luya for being drunk, even to the very sweepers about
the market. He would say that there ought to have been
a direct charge, and that Mr. Luya should have been
furnished with A copy of the charge, in order to give him
an opportunity of defending himself against it. He could
not understand Mr. Luya as being tried by a fair
English trial, and t'he manner in which that
trial was conducted was such that no jury
would have convicted him. After four days' hearing
of the charge brought against Mr. Luya, the fifth day was
given to hear his defence He had made his defence in the
room, and then in came a member who had not heard one
word ef it, and he drew a resolution out of his pocket, and
that is the resolution that you are asked to sanction.

Cries of "Name."
Mr. Woodruff : Mr. Bowring. Now, he would ask them,
was that the manner of administering English law in the
Liverpool Town Council? First, to hang a man, and then
to try him afterwards ; for that, in fact, was the way of trial
in this instance. He would go a little further, and tell
them that it had been said that Wm. Luya was a political
agent for members of that'council (hear, hear).
Mr. Gladstone : It is not true, if you refer to me.
Mr. Woodruff : I did not apply it to you, but, if the cap
fits you may wear it.
Mr. Gladstone : I understood you to apply to me.
Mr. Woodruff: You could do no such thing.
Cries of " Order, order."
Mr. Woodruff continued : It is well known that Mr.
Luya was a member of your committee in November last.
Mr. Gladstone : That is true.
Mr. Woodruff Mr. Luya did all the beef business.
' Mr. Dover rose to a point of order.
Mr. Woodruff said, he. was about to make a remark
with regard to the committee, but it was well known that
Mr. Luya was a member of that committee of yours
(Mr. Gladstone's), and was always employed by that radical
party, and was willing to do any work that he could for
them. The person who was now sitting in judgment on
him. Yes, even Mr. Beckwith.
Mr. Beckwith : Me ! !
The Mayor said, if that sort of discussion was to be
continued, he would put it to the council whether they
ought not to adjourn at once. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Tyrer thought that Mr. Woodruff had a right to
reply.
Mr. Woodruff said he had been told that.
__

Mr. Luya had been seen at Mr. Beckwith's house. He
did not know anythinr, about that himself, or what he had
been doing there. He would not say more, but content
himself with moving the resolution.
Mr. Chilton seconded the motion.

Cah(vlloaliwtdaneedaetd,es beenkt,
Aoa,
hear.)
ei
sa
or
ni
Mr. Turner: I do not know whether I shall be in order
now, in replying to the observations of Mr. Gladstone. (No,
na.) No matter, I shall have an opportnnity hereafter.
Mr. Ald. Bennett regretted that Mr. Luya should have
committed conduct deserving discharge, for while Mr. Luya
was in possession of health and the whole of his faculties,
he never saw a man more assidious or more attentive to
the performance of his duties than the overlooker of St.
John's market. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Bowling : I rise, sir, to make a few observations re-
specting the charge which Mr. Woodruff has made against
me with regard to my conduct in the committee, where the
questions affecting Mr.Luya were investigated. Mr. Woodruff
has stated that I came to the committee with a resolution
ready prepared. It is quite true, sir, that I did so, but I
came there after four or five days had been spent in inves-
tigating the charge. I had heard every iota of the evidence
which bad been brought before the committee. I had heard
Mr. Luya cross-examine every witness. The committee
was appointed to meet at 10 o'clock. I was here at seven
minutes past 10 o'clock. I came into the room when Mr.
Luya was going out ; and I refer any gentleman now
present to the statement Mr. Luya himself made, to see if
he has not acknowledged the very facts charged against
him. (Hear, hear.) He has done so broadly and distinctly,
and there can be no doubt about the fact, that the charge
of occasional drunkenness was proved against him. I heard
very little of the evidence. I heard the cross-
examination, and I contend that I am as com-
petent to form an opinion upon such a subject
as Mr. Woodruff, or any other member. The manner in
which this point has been touched upon by him is a petti-
fogging way of dealing with it, and could only have ema-
nated from one so continually in the habit of dealing with
small matters, that he has lost the faculty of taking a
broad or extensive view of any subject. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Beckwith said he could take his solemn oath that he
had no recollection at that moment of Mr. Luya.having
been entertained in his house ; but he would say further,
that if such a thing did take place, and if Mr. Luya had
been in his house, partaking of his hospitality, there was
no great crime in that. (Hear, hear.) He would not go
into facts, but Mr. Woodruff had many times partaken of
his hospitality, and many other members as well. (Order,
order.)
Mr, Dover : Is it for the dignity of the council to go into
debates of this kind ? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Beckwith : It is not, but when charges of the kind
are made they must be replied to. As to Mr.Luya's services
as a member of a committee of the Abercromby Ward, we
examined into that question, and we found that the only
services he rendered were, that his name was enrolled as a
member, and that he ordered five rounds of beef. (Oh, oh,
and laughter.)
Mr. Dover : Mr. Mayor, I protest against this. (Hear.
hear.) This is lowering ie dignity of the council. (Hear,
hear.) We are the local parliament, and what will be
thought of such proceedings as these by persons outside ?
Mr. Gladstone said, so long as Mr. Luya's duties to the
council were not interfered with, he did not see what they
had to do with his political opinions. He (Mr. Gladstone)
never gave Mr. Luya the slightest encouragement in anything
he did or thought proper to do in reference to the Aber-
cromby Ward. He held no communication with him on
the subject, although Mr. Luya often addressed him and
told him what he thought and heard, but he (Mr. Gladstone)
abstained purposely from even the very semblance of
countenancing any act on the part of a public officer in the
election of a member of the council. He believed that Mr.
Luya had always taken a part in the affairs of that ward,
long before he (Mr. Gladstone) became a member for it.
Mr. Luya was once a tory, and then there was no com-
plaint made against him with regard to his meddling with
politics. (Hear, hear.) Yesterday, he (Mr. Gladstone)
took an opportnnity, for the first time, of informing himself
how far Mr.Luya had acted in his election in Abercromby ward;
he believed that, beyond ordering five rounds of beef, of which
the ex-churchwarden seemed so wonderfully grieved, be
had never got a slice himself--(laughter)--the mustard that
gentleman had given them that day, and they therefore did
ns
chi. haen)dei tdsnhl liMenenavgdorlelitreaaib:vistlta:awtrodeffse. perfecttsraoeenne(i yeinnrni ggeaasalhni sArgrtyo, n 0 f intoxication
not want that--(laughter)--beyond that order, be believed
Mr. Luya two or three times
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do, or
tahg.:aiti,rn. way,
as
tLlatnhuhdyoieaumadon,
although
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re.
iMnflr.ueljuticYea
Steains, George H. Horsfall, James Holme,
After a lengthened discussion, Mr. Holme moved that
Gladstone then moved that the resolution ap-
pointing following
0 question enmsgt ioogtnei
motion
le
ewreferred
er
carried
eiteoda apbpsyopi enactieadl large committee
committee—Messrs.
Ili!
nt
majority,
ei
t teo ....
m_
and report upon.
Messrs. Sheil, Bowring, Corball
as members of themarkets'
y Beckwith, and
pG andoliaA
ind
,7sit.nroganvees.
rescinded. committee, be

Mr. Charles Turner said, Mr. Gladstone denied that any
regard for his own interest influenced him in the discharge
of his duty. lie wished Mr. Gladstone, in claiming that
merit for himself, was willing to accord to others