Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-11-11 00:00:00

do the same things, but they

manners

discussion of

mature

Mr. Alderman BENNETT said Mn Sheil was a member
of the Improvement Committee,.and he had enunciated
his views in the committee, where he found himself in
the minority. Mr. Cooper had said that their attention
should be turned to the Newsham-house estate, but
that was beyond the boundary, and, therefore, if Mr.
Shell's motion "was carried, that matter could not be
gone into. Mr. Sheil had said that they had confined
themselves to two boulevards, but he would ask what
were they to do? He had also expressed a wish to see
the poor of the densely-crowded parts of the town spread
.abroad amongst the more respectable inhabitants ; but,
before they pulled doian the densely-crowded portions
of Liverpool, let them by all means find some propersite
for the population to be removed to—let them mark out
out a place •for the boulevards, and sites would be
found. If they weat to purchase the houses in these
crowded places they could not biy them at a fair
price, and they would have to pay more for the central
improvement as proposed by Mr. Sheil then would pur-
chase land for the boulevards and build houses for the
people. He' therefore hoped Mr. Sheil would withdraw
his motion. With regard to the Landing-stages, there
would be very little space left, as they would be taken
up by the requirements of the commerce of the port.
The only plan for a thorough town improvement, was
the one which the committee had laid down • and if
Mr. Shell's motion passed, their plans would lie useless,
and it would be the most discouraoinc, blow that could
•
be struck on the committee.

Mr. SrEwA.RT observed, that if Mr. Bennett had
established all he had said, there was no doubt that
every one in the room would be. convinced. With
reference to Mr. Sheil's motion, if it were carried, there
would be some inconvenience. It was contemplated to
widen Smithdown-lane, a portion of which was out-
side the borough ;" and it would be strange to leave that
portion unimproved. As to the remarks of Mr, Cooper,
the Newsham House estate was the property ,of the
Corporation and so far Mr. Cooper was right, that
they should improve it. He was not disposed to add
one tax, upon another, and he wished them to get
rid of one rate before they had another on the top
of it. He did
_not, at all .agree with Mr.. 'Ben-
nett. Good wide. roads wouli ,be of very great
advantage to Liverpool whether they were formed like
the rim of a wheel' or not; but he did not think the
proposition was suited for the people of Liverpool.
With regard to the ‘pierheads, everyone admitted that
there should be better approaches. The Dock Board
Were , about to spend a large sum of money
for the accommodation of carriages and carts,
and he had no' doubt they expected the traffic
to be
.greatly increased, but he thought they were
be ;inning at the wrong end. They should have the ap-
proaches made first, and let the floating accommodation
follow. He was sure that a very considerable improve-
ment could" be made out of the Corporation finance by
putting it in a sinking fund for thirty years: If they
were prepar,ed, to
,spend £2,000 ,in illuminating the
clocks of the town, they could well afford to make more
useful improvements; but if that were carried out it
Would be
,
neoule. • •
found to be a very,,considerable tax on the

listened to the

Mr. SHELL, after hearing the observations of the
various speakers, consented to withdraw the motion.
The TOWN-CLERK then read the instructions to the
Town Improvement Committee.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, before he proceeded to nominate
the members of the Court of Passage Committee, he
wished to remark that there was some inconvenience felt
in consequence of the times at which the court was held.
The TOWN-CLERK said he had received a letter from
Mr. James on the subject, after he had been furnished
with the documents bearing on the matter. The letter
was dated St. George's-hall, October 28, 1859, and was
as follows :

I received whilst on the Continent
having heard a single complaint,

A you far the papers which
I was not aware, never
that there was any in-

convenience felt in consequence of the times appointed far
holding the court for the trial of issues. If such complaint
had been made to me direct, I should have given it prompt
attention. I have some reason, therefore. to complain of the
apparent want of courtesy on the part of the gentlemen con-
stituting the Law Sbciety. have given directions for having
the times of holding my courts, in future, fixed by rule of
court, and I trust that such dines will prove as convenient to
the attorneys, as I know them to be.to banisters who practice
in the court, and to myself.

(Signed) ED. JAMES.
He wished further to state that Mr. James, at his last
sitting, had fixed the times by rule of court to be
on the 3rd January, the 7th April, the 2nd August, and
the 25th October ; and when these dates fell on Sun-
day, the court would be held on the following Monday.
Mr. GLADSTONE said ,such an arrangement would Ibe
convenient for the business, and he wished to
move that the following gentlemen form the committee,
viz., Messrs. Jeffery, Stewart, Steams, Clint, Stitt,
Avison, Sheil, and Gladstone.

The motion was agreed to.
The next subject before the Council was the appoint-
ment of a committee to keep a surveil/once over those
who drove cattle within the borough.
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE moved that the follow-
ing gentlemen be appointed on this committee :—Messrs.
S. R. Greaves, Richard Sheil, C. J. Corbally, R. M.
Beckwith, and Robertson Gladstone. Agreed to.

INCREASED 'MARKETS ACCOMMODATION

Alderman WOODRUFF said that this question had
been a long time before the Council. In September
last the Markets Committee had made a report to the
Council on this subject, and it was not until November
that the committee sent in to the Council their report.
A drawing had been made, and the Council had now
before them the report to which he referred. He was
not there as a member of that committee to force the
'adoption of the report -on the Council; but he felt
it was a duty devolving upon him to have the question
fully discussed. The accommodation for those attend-
ing the markets was altogether too confined, and the
approaches to them were anything at all but what they
siaould be. In fact, the people themselves visiting. the
'markets had expressed to him their willingness
pay for better accommodation. The market
altogether unsuited for the demands of the vendors and
buyers, and he only wished to have the opinion of the
Council upon it, whether it.would be judicious or not to
do away with a lot of the shops adjoining, which dealt
in the retail trade, and, by increased accommodation in
this way, have an extensive market. The ,town-clerk
only wanted the sanction of the Council to give him
special powers to go to Parliament with ; and he would
move that the report of the committee be adopted.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the Council was the only party
from whom to seek advice. He deprecated bringing a
wholesale market so close to the retail market, and he
thcnight it would be very unfair. (Hear, hear.) If
they wanted to make a wholesale market ; or if parties
who came to Queen's-square were dissatisfied, let them
go to Great Homer-street, and there the retailers
and wholesale dealers would have a fair chance of
getting a fair trade. If this were agreed to he would
not oppose it.

,s were

Tdirrt CLBRX—After the site has been adopted by
the Council, and the general orders upon,
entered it
cannot be changed.
Mr. HODSON considered that the Markets Committee
would accomplish their object much better if they left a
retail market out of the question altogether, and
adopted the London system here, in this great town of
Liverpool. They had large shops, and wholesale trade
might be carried on very well without retail at all.

Mr. RID LEY complained that the increased accom-
modation contemplated had been concocted between
Mr. Johnson (the chairman of the Markets Committee)
and Mr. Woodruff, without consulting the other mem-
bers.

Mr. S. HOLKE would take Mr. Gladstone's view, of
the subject. If a wholesale market were erected in,
the middle of the town it would not answer any end.
There was a great thoroughfare in the vicinity of
Church-street, &e. Shaw-street, Great Homer-street,
or Gill-street would be the localities best suited.

Mr. EARLE agreed with all that had been said in
regard tallying a wholesale market in the centre of the
town. If they required a wholesale market, the Hay-
market was the place best suited for it, and tr. John-
son and Mr. Woodruff ought ,to go there. (Laughter.)
Mr. CROPPER asked whether there would be time
after this Council to'deposit the plans for the next
meeting of Parliament.
TowN CLEnx—Certainly not.

Mr. PRESTON, the ex-Mayor, stated the reason that
Mr. Johnson, the chairman of the Markets ComMittee,
was not in the room, arose from his having to leave the
Council to see some friends off in the steamer.

Alderman WOODRUFF said he did not wish to press
the question on the improvements referred to, if they
thought that the realisation of income would not justify
the expenditure; and if they were of opinion that the
report was not acceptable, let them refer it back to
the committee.—Agreed to.

TILE MAGISTRATES AND THE LAW SOCIETY

A short discussion on 'the above subject took place,
relative to the Council not paying any attention to a
memorial presented some time ago by the Law Society,
in respect of having a second stipendiary magistrate ap-
pointed for Liverpool, in which Messrs. Gladstone,
S. Holme, Avison, J. It. Jeffery, and Steains took
a part.' The result was, that

Ur. AvisoN, as .a member of the profession, said h(
y were willing to let

ire that

le La

NORTHERN MILT TIMES.

port die motion of Mr. Shell, (Hear, hear.) He was the members of the profession had been treated some-
clearly of opinion that boulevards were too near the what uncourteously. He was glad to observe such a
town already in many respects ; and, in bringing good feeling existed in the Council respecting the society
them nearer, would neither enhance the value of referred to.
those gentlemen who had property in the town, nor yet Mr. GLADSTONE moved, Mr. HoLiiin seconded, that a
of the Corporation. Their forefathers were very near- Special committee be appointed to take the memorial
sighted in erecting such buildings, which was apparent into consideration, which was unanimously agreed to.
from the small narrow streets that, in a great measure, The committee to consist of the following magistrates
now characterised the town of Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) and solicitors .—Messrs. S. Holme, R. Gladstone, J.
The builders, too, themselves, must have been very Stewart, J. R. Jeffery, J. B. Lloyd, T. Avison,
petty ones in those days. If they wanted to make im- Steaks and G. Beloe.
provements at all, let them be made by widening the The MAYOR'S communications comprised the follow-
streets, and let the boulevards stand, until the Council! ing from the Government, on the subject of post-office
decided where they should be erected. (Hear.) ! accommodation in Liverpool :
Mr. MOZLEY said the subject now before the Council TO THE MAYOR OF LIVERPOOL
was brought on by Mr. Sheil, in his ardour to improve Treasury Chambers, Ist Nov., 1859.
the condition of the working classes, so that they might six,---in reply to your letter of the Bth ultimo, \I am com-
have recreation at least during one day of the week. manded by the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury
He could easily understand Mr. Shell's object in this withoutt o state that
furtherit is
information
nble fodrhrvai
consideration,ety's Government,arrie a t
respect, which was a very philanthropic one ; but he satisfactory decision as to whether the present building may
should advise them to follow the practice first of making not be sufficient for the requirements of the Post-office service
improvements to extend the health of the town, and not for m any years to come at Liverpo:ol.
I am further to state that, even if the Government were in
travel out of it to bring in boulevards. He was opposed a condition to decide in favour of a change of site, it would be
to Mr. Shell's views on this point of improvements, impossible for them to consent to the price demanded for the
Mr. C. TURNER said he, as the Chairman of the Dock land in Dale-street, inasmuch as they are advised that it i
Board, wished to say that it had been thought desirable i eoltdisibdeeyraanbaeeyporyede theft market value of the 0
t which an eligible site ii.
that they should have improved communication between be obtained elsewhere.
their property on this and the other side of the water, With reference to this point, and to the resolution of the
and it was found that it would entail an expense o Town
con=lueitliOnwhoiuell osP:lei se
£20,000. It was the more necessary that they should ion:A l'unheydsitusiViel:?elirnaenct4e :rite
erection of a new post-office, my lords think it right, for the
come to some conclusion in the matter, before the works, information of the Town Council, to enclose a copy of a minute
were completed. They had a conversation with the vhisethaithreticloontlT beenl made by theirie lordships with the view
Council on the subject, who took the view that they tot proceed, e
for principle,
T.uptuereu,pir thew erection of Government ought
thought most consistent with the interest of the town, and it will be for the Town Council to judge whether, havinf
but there was no doubt on his own mind that new regard to the principles thus laid down, the present negoti'
approaches would be of great benefit to the town, and anytien jaaduvsatnbte be ° considered
e nt as terminated, or whether rf-
-
of advantage to the Mersey Board.
Mr. STITT did not think that Mr. Shell had over-
coloured the depravity and unwholesome state of some
parts of the town, and the depth of poverty in which
The First Lord and the Ch.ancellor of the Exchequer state tc
many of the poorer classes existed, more particularly as
thest i!nalrfshearts tthheey haove.nbrodu ghat
dunder the notice of her i regarded want of recreation, and having suitable places
Era-
wherein to recreate themselves. (Hear, hear.) There jests
Zh"e post-office gfro;;legereemelionn o7rronvtinee provincial
revenue
ed.erived
were two ways by which the evil should be met, It appears that, although the gross revenue from the post
both directly and indirectly. First, carry out im- office is in a state of progressive increase, the nett receipi
-- provements in the town; and then, as a matter of Ihave for a series of yeses a ,h-‘, .-- - -
course, the indirect wonld follow. With respect to
Newsham House estate, there was no doubt whatever
but parks might be made there, or some similar places
where the people could recreate themselves; but they
should first have the Newshana House estate secured to
them, and then buildings would follow. No doubt, the
poor of Liverpool felt the want of recreation. Now,
there were fifty acres of the Newsham. House estate.
Mr. Stitt then went on at some length to state that
the matter should be left in the hands of the
Finance Committee; and after supporting the claims of
the labouring classes, he advised Mr. Shell to withdraw
his motion.

n question,
t probably

—I am, sir, your obedient serval]

MIIVUTE.I

MANCHESTER 'AND LIVERPOOL POST-OFFICES,
NOVEMBER lsr, 1859.

tion, and may be viewed as nearly
In 1853 the nett postal revenue, excluding
mail packet service, was £1,184,000. In 1858-9, altho,,
gross revenue had increased by £587,000, the nett revenue
only £1,280,000; and even upon this increase it must be re
membered that in 1853 a revenueof £412,000 was deriv
stamps on newspapers, and in 1858-9 only £145,000. ._
first period all postal service in the transmission of newspape
was paid for by the stamp ; whereas, in the la ' " one, new
papers are extensively sent under postage
revenue of 1853 ought, therefore, for the purpose of .
comparison, to be credited with a sum on account of that r
of the postal service in transmission of • -
then, but is not now (so far
gratuitously discharged.
Moreover, if the cost of the mail packet sue_by the lait estimate, t0.L991,596, be taken into

is that department

amount

the poit-,

s. thus ci

is to a great extent 'a
legitimate charge
which is credited with the receipts from let
veyed, it wi I be found not only that there has been no incl.(
of nett income in the last seven VPSI/42 +h.+

and that

Lt increase of e

c invert this margin into a po4tive.lo.:

system,

-ould suffice t

It appears that-a
new post ffice bL;ecently been authorised
in Edinburgh at a cost of .00,000---viz., about £45,000 for
the site, and a similar sum for the building.
Edinburgh, as the metropolis of Scotland, may be thought
to constitute an exception; but partly, perhaps, in connection
with the erection of the new post-office in that city, and partly
from other causes, demands or proposals have come forward
from other great cities or towns, contemplating the outlay of
very large sums for the erection of local pest-office
From the town of Live' -
Majesty's Government

site in I

the,recently-acquired property of the Corpo..
tasmo, as a site for a new post-office. This
mended on the ground of its convenience for postal service and
to the local community.
The situation of the post-office in Liverpool is
more than local importance, on account of the great ti
service which is performed there.
It is also to be observed, in the case of Liverpool, that the
town made a contribution towards the erection of the present
post-office, which remains the property of her Majesty's Go-
vernment.

In, at a o

te is recom-

On the other hand, the need for a new post-office in Liser-
pool is prospective rather than immediate; and the Govern-
ment arc advised that if a change of site become neces-
sary hereafter, there is no reason to apprehend any par-
ticular difficulty in getting a suitable site for a less sum than
is now asked.

In Manchester the present post-office is.insufficient for the
purposes of the service. A new site has been acquired at a cost
rp
of X 19,000, and is' considered by the department to be entirely
adequate to those purposes. But the inhabitants of the city
have proposed that her Majesty's Government should abandon,
that is to say, re-sell the site they have acquired, and purchaso
another site in more immediate proximity to the ce.ntre of.
business. The price per yard of the site in John Dalton-street,
which they possess, was about £8 7s. ; that of the proposed one
would be, according to different valuations, from £l9 Is. to
£l5 ss. per square yarb. In the month of M'rch, 1859, the
late Board of Treasury was willing, as it appears from the
records, to meet the views of .the community of Manchester
upon condition that the city should itself undertake a portion
of the operation, which would leave to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, first the responsibility of parting with the site recently
acquired ; and secondly, an outlay, at the lowest estimate, of
£55,000, £15,000 of which might be recovered by the applica-
tion of a portion of the
_ground to remunerative purposes. '
This was an offer to purchase a site at a maximum cos: of
£65,000, computed to be reducible to £55,000, on certain con-
ditions to be performed by the city; and, further, to a nett
sum of £40,000, in certain estimates, were realised of the
return to be obtained by building on a portion of the ground.
The offer was made on the 6th April, 1859. The conditions
on which it was made have not been complied with ; but on
the Ist of October a letter was addressed to Mr. Ogden, secre-
tary to the Post-office Site Committee; to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, tendering a new proposal for the approval of
my lords, viz.,---that a
.guarantee should be given for the
re-purchase of 762 yards of the spare land included ix the dotal
purchase by the Government, required for improving .f'
approaches. at the price of £lO,OOO.
My lords have been most unwilling to disappoint -
tation which, might have been_ legitimately -

Manchester in consequence of the Tetter of 6th April,
written ey order of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury
But while that offer has not been accepted, the whole subject
of the demands on the postal revenue which have arisen, and
which are likely, and indeed certain, to arise in other quar-
ters, has assumed such an aspect as to require the attention of
her Majesty's advisers, who have determined that it is recces-•
—,ithout further delay,„to decide upon a general rule
cf

sary,

shall govern the amount of outlay in the
sites and the erection of buildings for provincial post-office...
They hare decided that this outlay must be limited by the
wants of the department itself, and that such site shall be
acquired and such buildings raised as, in the opinion of the
department approved by my lords, shall be sufficient for the
efficient execution of the serwice, •always with a due regard to
the prospective growth of She postal system, especially at
particular places.

- But wheie it shall be desired by the inhabitants of any place
:to go beyond this, and to obtain, at a greatly increased cost,
',either an alscolute maximum of local convenience, or the erec-
tion of a structure more costly than the end in view may
strictly require, or co-operation in some extended plan of local
improvement, in these cases ,the proposal cannot be enter-
ttined except upon the condition of a cofrresponding amount
of local contribution.

Her Majesty's advisers believe that the adoption of this rule
is both obviously just and reasonable in itself, and is requisite
is order to stay the growth of demands, all-of which might be
founded upon the claim for equality of treatment? but which,
in their joint result, might be found to leave the inland postal
revenue of the country in a course of absolute diminution.

It is therefore their 'op nion that thept;POSeaPia-nW;uar-
antee in the case of Manchester cannot be accepted, and the
acqtdsition of another site can be further entertained only
upon conditions conformable to the rule which has been laid
down.

Should the city of Manchester be willing ;to assume the main
burden of the pretuosed change from the site in John Dalton-
street to that of the Queen's Theatrq, the correspondence may
then proceed. But it cannot be prolonged on any other foot-
ing ; for the ezpeaditure, in the case of Manchester, of a sum
similar to that which has been authorised in Edinburgh, would
•establish a case of precedent.which would come to be applied
through all the large towns, at an enormous cost to the country
and without any justifying principle.
When the case of Liverpool is fully ripe fir decision, the
same basis will be applied to the circumstances of that case.
Mr. •SIIEIL said the document was a very lengthy one,
and they should treat it very briefly. The Council had
made no offer to the Government, and the land was yet
ill their own hands. Lord Redesdale had introduced a
clause into the bill to keep the Government secure.
'the document, contrasted Edinburgh with Liverpool,
because it was a ,inetro polis ; but it was not to be com-
pared with Liverpoolin any way whatever. The Go-
vernment then went on to say "they will not contri-
bute." For his (Mr. SheiPs) part, he did not want
thew. The whole document was really balderdash,
from beginning to end. Why, where the Government paid
£8 17s. 7d. per yard for ground in Manchester, Liverpool
could afford to give it £7 17s. 6d. (Hear, hear.) After
some observations from other members of the Council,
the letters were referred to the Health Committee.
This terminated the proceedings.

DARING ATTEMPT AT ASSASSINATION.—On Sunday
evening, about 84 o'clock, Mr. John Harland, under
agent to Mr. Stackpocle of Cooreclivan, near Shinrone,
in the King's, County,lreland, was fired, at and griev-
ously wounded in the stomach, neck, and arms. He
was walking with his servant-man from where his cows
had just been milked, and had only parted from him
for a few second's, when he received the shot from a
miscreant who had been concealed up to that moment.
The fellow then rose from,his 'place of concealment,. and
deliberately walked off, leaving his victim, as he thought,
dying on the road. His life is in a precarious, state.
Four men have been, arrested. This is the second out-
rage in this Locality. On the night previous, two shots
were
moneyfigrealianbtoout two .miles distant, A fow years since,
the house of a man "named Hunt, in

4_ •
fine young man, named Egan, was shot dead in al
the same locality, on

return'