Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-08-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

The
ROUSE OF LORDS.—YESTERDAY.
""Sral assent was given by commission to various bills,

The 1, TUE ITALIAN QUESTION.
r,l4lllf,n7aXquis of NORMANBY called attention to the co.in-
ove,.., I—‘lon between France and Anstria, which the British
treatZni ent transmitted to the latter power previous to the
44fheif,,"' Villafranca, and asked for the production of the
Porero„letters which had passed on the subject 'between the
teview°L°lfiee and the British Ambassador at Paris.
.Hel
toiliml."‘A at much length the recent events and political
he ~,,,"-Leation which had arisen out of the affairs of Italy.
vi',liie.l,4l.4ed Government not to meddle in the. controversy
liai4teJudging from the previous conduct of the Prime
they were more likely to bemischevious than
WhichlAN
the explained that the communication
4,lbed lue British Minister had transmitted to Austria con-
°Dial° certain propositions, upon which they offered no
tnediaLl of their own. Their action was simply as inter
-
143 art ;en he must refuse to produce papers belonging
9iiiedeztensive series. As to the Italian. question, he de-
41°01vi t„'° "ter upon so wide and miscellaneous a discussion,
"pet of g the whole range of Italian questions and the con-
every European Power with regard to Italy.
vltllg° .subject then dropped.
41jeop.„" billed at 7s were advanced a stage ; and their Lordships
—.26.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAY

.451„.,Cl TM; MEDICAL P,ROFRIISION.
110 DUINB asked the • Secretary of War why men
iXtie,
'Qived the legal rigat to practice
.surgery and
1/41 from the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland
414ded from becoming candidates for the medical ad-

'l3 pointtnents in the army, and whether there o any -
jeetion on the part of Government to bring in a bill to grant
to those deserving medical officers who have retired from
the service the same additional rank which will be given to
those who are at present serving on their retirement ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said that since the remuneration to army
Burn-eons had been increased, it had been decided that, in
addition to the diploma to the, College of Surgeons, another
from some other body should also be required. As to the
second question, he said there would be great difficulty in
altering the preSent system.

ARMY OFFICERS IN INDIA.
Colonel SYRus asked the Secretary for India whether, as
the 56th clause of the Government of India Act (1858),
transferring the direCt Government of India to the Crown,
guaranteed to the officers of the Indian army the rank and
privileges, &c., they leld at the time of the passing of the
said act, it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to
alter the'rank held by the field officers of the Artillery and.
Engineers of the Indian army at the time of passing of
said act. '

Sir C. WooD, after explaining the circumstances, said it
was not intended to alter or cancel the rank or position of
the officers in question.

Sir F. SMITH' asked the Secretary for War whether the
Royal Commissioners, to inquire into the defences of the
countrys had been appointed, and whether there is any pro-
bability of their making a report, before the prorogation of
Parliament ; and if not, whether, on the recommendation
of the commissioners, her Majesty's Government will feel at
liberty to suspend any' works which have been already
authorised by Parliament, or ' commence, without such
authority; any other works which the commissioners may
represent to be of an urgent character ? '
Mr. S. HERBERT did not expect the contingency to occur,
or that the Commissioners would recommend Government to
suspend any, works now authorised by Parliament.

ROAT AM CATHOLIC SOLDIERS.

Captain 0' CONNELI; asked the Secretary for War,Whether
he is prepared to introdnce a reiulation to - enable Roman
Catholic soldiers to attend . mass on the holidays of
:their
church, when they can
.do so without interference with their
military duties.

Mr. 'HERBERT said a regulation existed enabling the
soldiers to attend divine worship before nine o'clock, when-
ever their duties permitted. • . .•

A NEW WRIT FOR BODMIN

On the motion of Mr. E. James, a new writ was ordered
for Bodmin, in place of Mr. Michell, who had accepted the
office of Steward of the Mano-f of Northstedd.
The orders of the day having, on the motion of Lord
PALMERSTON, been suspended,
THE ITALIAN QUESTION.—LOED ELCHO'S MOTION.

Lord. --
ELeno moved, that an humble address be presented
to her Majesty stating that, in the opinion of this House,
it would be consistent neither with the honour nor the dignity
of this cmintry which, throughout the late negotiations, has
preserved a strict and impartial neutrality between the con-
tending powers, and use,' its earnest endeavours to prevent
the outbreak of hostilities, to take part in any conference for
the purpose of settling the details of a peace, the prelimi-
naries of which have-been arranged between the Emperor of
the French and the Emperor of Austria. He urged; that;
as we had been neutral from the commencement, we should
be neutral to the end, which could not be if we were mixed
up with a conference. He did not blame the Emperor of
the French for making peace ; he had, doubtless, found dif-
ficulties, for which he was not prepared, in the way of his
original views ; but, neither could he consider Austria as,
morally, the aggressor, or responsible for the war. That
power had not added a single soldier to her force till the
Emperor of the French commenced to use menacing
language towards the Emperor of Austria, and had made
preparations, shelving that war was airs ady in his mind.
It was not, he contended,,_ to Austria, but to France and
Sardinia, that we should attribute outbreak of hostilities.
With all our administration for Sardinia, we could not deny
,that, for years, its attitude towards Austria had been one of
provocation and insult. The conduct of France and Sar-
dinia constituted a precedent, against which, they, as
Englishmen, were bound to protest, (an authorised
armed intervention in favour of nationalities,) by
which the public law of Europe would be alto-
gether destroyed. As to the peace, there could be
no doubt that the present British Government was
anxious that Austria should be driven across the Alps, if not
by the sword, by the pen, and would be disappointed at any
other result. , With such objects, and the precedents under
which it had always acted, it could not be called neutral.
The French Government assumed that the views of our
Government on the subject were identical with its own ; and
the French Government, assuredly, could not be callel
neutral. To enter into a Congress in such a spirit would
be to depart from those principles of non-intervention which
our greatest statesmen had now adopted as the true policy of
this country. All our attempts at intervention in that
spirit had produced nothing but mischief and disappoint-
ment. How were they prepared to deal with the great
Italian difficulties—the retention by Austria of the strong-
holds which formed the keys of Italy, or the administration
of the Pope ?' If they had confidence in the Emperor of
the French, their interference was superfluous. lie re-
peated that he saw no good result that would follow from
our entering into the Conference ; but, if 'the noble lord
would engage in it, not as a partisan, but in the spirit of
fairness and impartiality, he for one should cordially pray
for its success.
Mr. HORSMAN seconded the motion.

Mr. M. KINGLAXE moved the previous question, without
saying that the motion was unconstitutional. It so far
interposed between Government and its duties as to amount
to a vote of want of-confidence. It was, he thought, incon-
ceivably rash thus to prejudice the future, and decide .6n the
Conduct to be pursued months hence, when the circiim_
stances might be totally altered. He should follow the old
fashion principle of conceding latitude of action to he-
Majesty's Ministers, and holding them re3ponsibler
for that action. At the same time he agreed
with the motion so far in deprecating our join-
ing a Congress, that he was unwilling -to meet
,the
motion by a direct negative. At the close of a general
war,' the nations concerned might meet in Congress,.but, in
the present instance, we had not engaged in the war, and
would, therefore, enter Congress without weight or au-
thority. Moreover, our statesmen had not distinguished
themselves in Congresses. They had not come out of those
of 1815 or .1856 with any increase of reputation; and had
often committed themselves to opinions derogatory to the
honour of the country. _

The Criarremmon of the EXCHEQUER said the Govern-
ment was prepared to meet this motion by a direct negative ;
but, as the previous miestion had been moved, they would
adopt and support it. The terms of peace would be settled
by the belligerents themselves ; but, if we entered into a
conference it would be for the purpose of arranging ques-
tions, not merely Italian, but European ; and it was absurd
to pledge the Government in advance as to the course they
should pursue under circumstances which had not yet arisen.
He admitted the feverish desire for peace maintained by the
late government, but protested against the distinction drawn
in itsfavourbetween the present government by the noble lord.
Neither was the language of Mr. Disraeli in that House con-
sistent with strict neutrality when he declared the conduct of
Sardinia was ambiguous and suspicious, and that of Austria
want of dignified conciliation. It was the attitude of that
Government which induced Austria to take the steps which
finally led to the rupture of peace. The objct of Lord
Elcho was to prevent England from engaging in a confe-
rence lest its views should be too favourable to Italy, and
too hostile to Austria. The very idea of imputing hostili-
ties to Austria was preposterous and absurd; we werff
deeply interested in the preservation of that Power
as. essential to the equilibrium of Europe. The Italian
difficulty did not only exist in that present mo-
ment, it went back, at least to 1815, since which time
whenever the slightest attempt was made on the part of
Italy for freedom, the iron hand of Austria interposed and
re-established all .the rigours of previous governments.
Hence, the very position of Sardinia as a free state became
a standing menace to Austria. Under such circumstances
he could not blame either Austria or Sardinia for the atti-
tudes they had assumed. Recurring to the Italian question,
he could not believe that the supremacy of Austria could
ever be exercised to good effect ; and even those most
favourable to her power might wish that she might
be confined within limits where she could exercise
a just and beneficial dominion. As to the Congress, it was
asked what they would do when they got there. This was
a matter which belonged to the distant future, and in re-
spect of which he protested against the House of Commons
usurping the functions of the Executive, or recording an
unconditional declaration against any line of action. Eng-
land hid always manifested its sympathies for Italy. She
had joined with other Powers in endeavouring to persuade
the Pope to ameliorate his government, and we were
not now to proclaim our isolation, and refuse to take
its part in effecting good. It was said that we always
disgraced ourselves in Congresses. He did not believe
that an. Englishman could not be found able to take
his part with representatives of other nations. He
again protested against the proposal for tying the hands
of Government to prevent the possibility of their doing
good to a large portion of mankind, and repressing tyranny
in some of the fairest countries of the earth. They were
told not -to assist France, civil if she was sincere in her
efforts to 'obtain freedom for Italy. He called Upon the
House to reject a proposition so derogatory to the House
and the interest of the country.

Mr.S, FrrzognAtm said that it Wat lieiattse the opposi-
tion distrusted the pone), of Lord PalmerstOn, and it was
because they viewed,with alarm the objects with 'whiCh he
would enter a congress, that they desired the house to ex-

press an opinion on the subject: He entered at some length
into the diplomatic policy of the present Government, com-
plaining that the House and the country were left in igno-
rance, and that if • the' GoVernment was miSiudged it was
their own fault. As to the congress, if the noble lord en-:.
tered into it, he would sPeedily-find himself such 'differ-,
ence of opinion_ with the' other powers, that he Would be
compelled to retire before this opposition. It' would be
far better -to avoid the congress altogether, than
to risk such a reSult. PrOjeCts would be subinitted to the
congress which this country Could not admit without dis-
grace, 'or oppose without danger, which, of itself, was a
suffieient reason for • -abstaining • from 'taking part in. it. •

Lord 11. VANE supported the previous question.
Mr. QOCHRANE, supported the resolution, decliiring that
the conduct of Lord,Pahnerstori'was Such as to deprive him
of all confidence.
Mn GILIuN Said" the " question before the House
was not whether it was or was • nbt advisable to
enter into a COngress, but -Whether the hands of the
administration should.; be so fettered as' to 'be de-
prived of u, liberty of ' action,' whatever circumstances
might arise. This latter 'course taken just before'the.rising
of Parliament would, he contended, be most imprudent and
unwarran:able.
_ Mr. Q'bONOGIIIJE" siippOrted The resolution. The prin-
ciples of peace had already been. Settled, and nothing re-
mained but to carry out the details. , .

Mr: 31. MILNrs objected to the reso'_ution, as involving a
hypothetical_ proposition against a cOnting,ehey occurring no
One knew when or where.

Mr. vHENNESSY, adduced various authorities to show;
that the Papal States were, more prosperous and better
governed than Sardinia:. He supported the resolution.
Mr. Honsmax said the only Werence to be drawn from
the speeches and the Conduct of the Ministry was that they
desired, if they did not intend to; abandon principles of
neutrality hitherto so cattfully maintained, and drag; the
country into the entanglements and controversy which now
beset foreign political questions. He. called on the House
td'exprss such an opinion as should prevent, the Ministry
from committing themselves durinm'' the recess to a policy
repugnant alike to the opinions of Parliament and the feel-
ings of the nation. On'thiS' ground he 'strongly-supported.
the resolution, believing that an alliance with France for
the purpose of carrying Out French policy in Italy was
utterly repugnant to the national sentiments.
Mr. S. HERBERT entered in detail into the state of Italy,
contending that we had no right to say that the' people were
unfit for freedom. He did not say that they were about to
enter in a congres. The difficulties of that course had been
already pointed Out ; but if those difficulties were removed,
were they to refuse to join in the task of restoring Italy to
her rank among nations ? The resolution called upon. the
House to bind, not only the Government, but itself as to its
actions under circumstances which no one could foresee2—a

course which he declared would be the hcight of human
folly.

Mr. WHITESIDE, after arguing that a congress would oc-
cupy itself with, matters the discussion of which could only
lead this country into inexplicable difficulties, and pointed
out the inconsistency of Mr. Gladstone, who first declared
that Government had no to Austria, and then de-
nounced her rule as an iron depotism. Mr. Gladstone had de-
clared that peace could not last while Austria held a foot of
land in Italy. How could a Ministry—one of the principal
members of which held such language—enter fairly and
impartially into a congress ? He declared that no congress
could dQ more for Italy than had been done already, and
therefdre fully approved the principle of the resolution.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that nothing could be more ill-,
timed than advising 'the Crown not to permit the Ministry
to do what it had never been asked to do, and under the
present circumstances it had no, intention of doing. After
defending the conduct of Sardinia, rendered necessary by
her position and circumstances, he objected to the resolu-
tion, that it did not prevent England from joining France
in a war against Italy, or precluded her from anything,
except taking part in a congress. He said this, fully admit-
ting that it was doubted whether it would be prudent foi
this country to take such a course, and that of France and
Austria at Zurich to settle the whole ,question,, it would not
become the honour or dignity of this country to add its signature,
to such a settlement. At the same time, affairs might take
a very different turn; and render our intervention useful and
even necessary.for the protection of Italy from the double,
danger of foreign intervention and domestic revolution, by
forming a Confederation on a ;sound and durable basis.
Was England to register a vow which should preclude her
from taking part in such .a work ? This was a question.
which, like others? ought to be left to the 4iscretion and re-
sponsibility of the Ministers' of the Crown.' 'AdVertiag to
the proposals made by France to Austria, through the
British Government, ho proceeded to explain the cir-
cumstances under which, without sanctioning them,
the Ministry became the channel of their 'communication,
distinctly declaring that it offered no advice in the matter.
Ile rejoiced that peace bad been concluded, believing that
the councils of peace would do more than any contingency
of war for the future Of Europe. and Italy. He claimed
for Italy the right to assume by so many other nations, of
founding its own Government on the basis of a popular
movement, and declared" to be the duty of this country to
abstain ,from a policy of isolating, which may in the end
endanger its own independence.
Mr.DISRAELI defended himself from the charge of having
violated neutrality by the expressions he had used in refer-
ence to Austria and Sardinia. He had said nothing that
was not warranted by the facts, and justified by the
statements of our ambassador. Recurring to the
denunciations, by Mr. Gladstone, of the treaties of Vienna,
he asked if those used were shared by his colleagues,
and if it was with such intent that they would enter
into the congress if to, he --contended that the
preliminaries of Villa Franca formed a most unsatis-
factory basis for altering the settlements of 1815.
He said that Lord J. Russell had given every information
respecting his part in the communication between France
and Austria, except what they wanted to know, namely,
whether the Government approved that communication or not.
Coming to the question ofatongress he argued strongly against
our engaging mit, as we should either donothing or violate the
principle of non-intervention. As for the motion it touched
the most vital question of the constitutional right, and it
was one, therefore, which ought not to be introduced
at the very close of the session. The House could not then
do justice to the subject, and he therefore trusted Lord
Elcho would consider his object attained, and withdraw his
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ha.l done our most to prevent peace from being broken we
were to do nothing to render it more durable. Now that it
was re-established on the general question, he said that
Austria would be stronger without her possessions in Italy,
which were her vulnerable points—a source of weakness to
her. If they could do good to Italy by entering into a
congress, .it would not be their duty to decline it.
A motion precluding the Crown from acting under circum-
stances neither politic nor constitutional. lie would have
preferred a direct negative to it, but would support the
indulgent mode of meeting it, proposed by the amendment,
of the previous motion.
Lord ELcuo, after defending his motion, withdrew it,
accepting the amendment of the previous motion.
The amendment was agreed to.
The Appropriation and the East India Loan Bill passed
through committ,ee.
The Reserve Volunteer Force Seamen Bill was read a
third time and passed.
After a protest from Mr. Ayrton against' fhe penal laws,
other bills were advanced a stage.
The House adjourned at twenty minutes to three.