Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-04-01 00:00:00

THE NORTHEnN TIMES FRIDAI, APRIL 1, 1859

THE- LATEST TELEGRAMS•

FRANCE.

OPERATIONS OF THE FRENCH IN COCHIN-

CHINA.
The accounts are to January 30th. The admiral
had left with the flotilla to commence operations in
the south, and it was said that he intended to attack
Saigan, a town which is considered as the granary
of Cochin-China, on account of the large trade in rice
carried on from it to China. Hue was to be beseiged
as soon as the expected reinforcements had arrived.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-THURSDAT.
The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the woolsack at five
o'clock.

existing

electoral influence would then be given to one Class, withOlit any
countervailing balance. He analysed the effects of the measnrc
upon the town and county constituencies. It increased the consti-
tuencies of the counties in a greater degree than those of the town,
and yet left the number of members almost as it found them. How
could they expect that this state of things would be submitted to
without a further cry for a redistribution of seats. No one Could
say how the proposed system would work politically, but it was
quite evident that the present county constituencies would be
swamped by the new voters. He examined the enfranchising
clauses of the bill, pointed out their constituencies such as given a
vote on account of £6O in the savings' bank and £lOO in
government securities, and contended further that they
afforded no test of respectability more than this, they only extended
to a small portion of the working classes. A man with a large
family could not put money into the savings' bank. The savings'
bank suffrage alone did not, therefore, afford a fair opening to:the
working classes; but the issue as to the extension of the franchise
to the working classes was not fairly raised by the resolution. That
resolution provided against the transfer of the borough voters, but
that was already provided for, though somewhat irregularly, by
the clauses proposed by the Government. With ,respect to the last
part of the resolution, nothing couldbe more vague and uncertain.
It pledged the house to nothing, and would be satisfied by the most
trivial addition to thebill itself. If it meant anything, it meant
that the bill should be kicked out without further con-

sideration. He, therefore, could not .support it. With regard to
the bill, he must tak& into 'consideration the declaration that an
impartial consideration would be given to, all propositions which

might be brought forward. These deelaiatimis ought to relieve
any one from all doubts as to the propriety of voting for the
second reading. The government had said as much as they could
be expected to say. They had not pledged themselves as to what
they would accept, neither had they pledged themsoives that they
would reject anything. The majority of the house was evidently
of opinion that the question ought to be settled that year, and
that the bill in its present shape would not settle it, but he be-
lieved that it might be so adapted in committee to the wishes of
moderate men, so as to be made a satisfactory measure. The
adoption of alteration by the government in this peculiar posi-
tion would not affect them as it would if they had commanded a
large majority in the house. The situation was peculiar•, and
demanded exceptional treatment. He objected to the bill, as a
departure from the old ways of the constitution, and hoped that
they would return to them when they considered the matter in
committee. _ _ .

Mr. Rocbucl said that the British constitution extended its
influence over the whole world, and therefore was of 'import to
the destinies of mankind. They were about to reform the Reform
Act. What was it they were called upon to change. The position
of that house had been subject to constant fructuations. The power
orthe House of Commons had been, up to 1332, accompanied with
the' increasing power of the landed interest, and up to that time
England was governed by as absolute an aristocracy as ever ruled
a nation. The bill of 1832 did not transfer the power from the
aristocracy to the middle classes, but it shared the powers between
the two. The bill wus subject to the great fault of including the
working classes. These classes hod increased in education and
intelligence since that time, and were fully entitled to the
confidence of the country. The two great objects which,
they ought to have in view; was therefore .the enfran-

chiiement of the -working classes, and the regularity of
the electoral bodies. It was said that there was danger in
throwing the power into the hands of the working classes, but a
majority could never have an interest contrary to that of the coun-
try—a minority might have: They had had an interest contrary to
that of this country, and they had used it so as to produce dear

bread all over the nation. bt was the :working classes which had
made England what it was. This being the end, he had to consider
the means. Many of his friends believed' that no good would be
made out of the bill. Be, on the contrary,-believed that much good
might be made•of it.• Were they to• trust the management of the
question to the present Government, to Lord Palmerston, or to
Lord John Russell?' Now, with regard to Lord Palmerston, he
never could look upon him as a, reformer ; out of office, he mani-
fested the most liberal intentions, in office, he was one of the great-

est monopolists that ever existed. With regard to Lord John Rue-
sell,,he waslike a-Chinese lady'sloot) one whichshe much admired,•
but which did not help her on. The mind of the noble lord was
so. swathed and bound by party considerations, that he
was incapable of enlarged ideas. The noble lord considered
the strength of this eountryto be an appanage of Whig politicians ;
he himself preferred- the weakness of the present Government to
the strength of the noble viscount, with all its arrogance and inso-
lence: What, then, was his advice ? It" was to cancel the bill.. He
demanded a specific answer from Mr. Disraeli whether, if the-bill
went into committee, and the house enacted a £6 borough franchise
and £lO county franchise, without any transfer of the borough
voters, he would in that case resign. If so, he would vote aga.inst
the second reading of the bill. If not, he would support it, believ-
ing the cause of Reform safer in the hands of the present adminis-
tration than of any other.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this was the first time
that a bill introduced by a Government had been met as this had
been. It would, he declared, increase the constituency to a greater
extent than the Reform Bill of 1832.. He declined in the most em-
phatic terms to pledge himself to the adoption of any provisions
in committee. The demand was unreasonable and unfair.
The majority of the House was in favour of the principles of the
bill. Those principles were the extension of the franchise, the
creation of new constituencies, and the retention of the present
franchise in boroughs. The resolution, he asserted, only dealt
with the details of the measure. They were not to be allowed to
discuss the bill on its merits, but this resolution on its details was
to be thrust into their hands. No reform bill had ever been intro-
duced without proposing large disfrancbisements. The bill of
1832 disfranchised many large classes. In subsequent bills, Lord
J. Russell proposed the disfranchisement of other classes. Was he
met by a resolution declaring that no one ought to be disfranchised t
Would he have submitted to have the details of his hill considered
when its principles were in question? Recurring to the bill
itself, he admitted that many persons, whose opinions were entitled
to respect, advocated a £2O occupation franchise in the counties
rather than £lO, but what had those already done on this matter._
He entered into the history of the Reform, Bill since 1850 c The
Government of Lord Aberdeen, comprising Lord John Russell,
Lord Palmerston, Mr. S. Herbert, Sir J. Graham; and Mr. Gladstone,
had in 1854 introduced a bill proposing a Lid county franchise. In
the face of this they were told, that they ought to have followed
the advice of those colleagues whom they had lost. The motion of
Mr. Locke Ring followed for introducing the .LlO franchise, it was
opposed by Lord John Russell, and negatived by 13. The amount
of force brought up by that noble lord, amounted to no more than
• the numbers of the majority. The motion was again
renewed next year, and the motion of Mr. Locke King was
carried by a large majority, Lord Palmerston voting for it.
He mentioned this•to show the impractability of proposing in the
prcoont Covornmcnt Bzo alatAxihc. x th. 7 }ma pro

posed, the struggle now taking: place would have taken place on
the very point, an& the expressed opinion of the house would have
been brought forward against them. Recurring to the resolution,
he said that he would not be so unjust to,the noble lord as to
measure his policy by his resolution. It was necessarily under
such circumstances a party resolution. The noble lord had
declared that his object was to enfranchise the working classes,
but he forgot to state the means. But the omission was supplied by
the member for Carlisle. That right hon. gentleman was in

favour of a groat disfranchisement of small boroughs or large
distribution of seats, in important reduction of the borough
franchise, and lasts, but not least, a vote by ballot. This was at
least a clear and distinct programme. With this came the admission
of the right hon. gentleman that he was a confederate in the reso-.
lution of the noble lord. The irresistible influence on the noble
lord acquiesed in the programme of his confederate leader. Under
such circumstances, he did not see why the member for Bir-
mingham should not act as the trusted and honoured colleague of
the noble lord.and the right hon. gentleman. He attacked with
great vehemence all proposals for making the working classes the
predominant, body in the state. He viewed it with the greatest
alarm, which was diminished by sentimental phrases re-
specting the Drogress and intelligence of the working classes.
The bill had. been attacked on account of its so-called proposals for
identity of franchise. Why it contained a greater variety of fran-

chise than any bill that Nvas'ever yet introthiced. When ft was said
that the working classes was not admitted, he replied that they
were admitted in a manner which, when the bill was brought into
operation, would be satisfactory to them, and was in accordance
with the constitution. More than a ninth of the constituency, as
it stood,, were working men. Again, it was said that the bill would
lead to electoral districts. Now, he confessed that, when he found
that the difference between a £5O and a £lO occupancy franchise
was all that stood in the way of electoral districts, he felt some
The argument might be applied with equal force, that the
stem would lead, to.electoral districts. He repeated that

while the house was in favour of the principles of" the bill, they
were diverted from it, as an amendment which only torched

details. The noble leader of the opposition had declared himself in
favour of the principle of the bill—he would vote far the second
reading, and yet supported the resolution. He had been astonished
at the language of the noble lord. Parties had in former days run
high, but no man in the• position of the noble Viscount had ever
told the Ministry that if they counselled their Sovereign to
dissolve Parliament, the House would stop the supplies.
After what had occurredsinee he could only treat this threat as a
lest. He entered into a warm protest against the restless conduct
of Lord John Russell, whose sneers and attacks against Lord
Malmesbury at a most critical moment, had he declared on his
responsibility as a minister, produced injurious effects on the
public service. The constituents of the noble lord cared far less
for reform than for peace, and would not fail to demand from the
noble lord an account of his conduct. He referred to the diffi-
culties which beset the ministry at its first assuming office,
and pointed to the present condition of the country
as a proof that their efforts to surmount them had
had not been unsuccessful. He concluded by declaring his trust
in the justice of the people of England to sustain them as it had
done hitherto, amidst all the manceuvers of political intrigue, and
all the machinations of party warfare.
_ _ _

The house divided on the as an amendment. For the
nendment, 330; against, 291 majority, 39.
The resolution being then put as a substantive motion,
Mr. Wyld moved an addition, providing that votes be taken by
ballot. .
Mr. H. Berkeley appealed to the hon. member not to; press his
testi- I motion

Mr. M. Gibson made a similar appeal

Clay, amidst much confusion, moved the adjourn

The motion being negatived without a division,
The House then divided on the amendment of Mt. Wyld, which
was negatived by 328 to 95.
The resolution was then put, and agreed to without a division.
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was agreed
that the House adjourn till Monday.
The House then adjourned at ten minutes totw.o o'clock.

THE BOGOTA. CASE.—At the Police-office, yesterday, Mr.
Grimmer, solicitor, handed his worship. Z 7, collected from
a lady and a few gentlemen, for the wife and children of,
Landor, killed on board the Bogota.
LIVERPOOL INFIRMARY FOR CHILDREN, 58, HOPE-
STREET. —Monthly report, March 31.—Fresh patients ad-
mitted, 108.; patients who have received treatment, 200 ;
patients remaining under treatment, 171. Medical officers :
Mr. Stephens and Mr. Hey. Surgeon dentist : Mr.

Newman.

MEETING OF THE RATEPAYERS OP WEST DERRY.—
A meeting of the Ratepayers of West Derby was held
yesterday morning, for the purpose of nominating overseers,
and for the election of members to serve on the Highway
Board. W. H. Anthony, Esq. in the chair. The old
overseers consisting of Mr. Whitby, Mr. Abrams, Mr.
French, and Mr. Vensley, were nominated. A ratepayer
enquired whether the office was for life or hereditary. A
reply being made on the negative, Mr. Thomas Corkhill
was nominated and carried. The accounts of the Highway
Board were read. Considerable discussion of a rather
exciting character arose upon the accounts. It would
appear, that a large surplus fund arising out of the waste
lands of the township ought, by law, be passed to the credit of
the rates of the township, but which had, it transpired, from
time immemorial, been consumed in the widening of roads
abuttinc, upon the mansions in the township. After the
accounts had been formally passed, a motion was passed
directing the Highway Board, for the future, to insist for a
proper appropriation of the surplus funds of the waste lands
for the benefit of the township. A list of twenty names
were submitted to the meeting to serve on the, highway
board fur the coming year, and which was oarr;,.ed by a large
majority. There was considerable interest in the division,
the meeting having determined tq hav'e what they termed
"all new blood." After a Yo.tc Qf tlranks to the Chairman,
the business terminated,

MEETING OF ISE CIW
COMMISSIONERS.
REPAIR OF ST. PAUL'S
Yesterday, a meeting of the church commissioners 05
held at the Parish Offices, for;the purpose of submitting th.e,
annual accounts, and to bring under consideration a surveyor',
report on the present condition of St. Paul's Church, alu
,I_4_
the repairs considered necessary to the vreservatiou tu
edifice. The Rev.- Rector Campbell presided.
mho
The accounts were submitted by the churchwarden,
intimated that the collector had been dismissed, he being
defaulter to the extent of £B. The accounts showed a e"
ficiency in the church receipts as compared with the open

diture! . - - ,
Mr. Roberts called attention to the present state' oft ie
church, which, a's a. property, was valueless. He pfn";
against the church being made a convenience for clergy
lthe
receiving stipends, while there was little done et the
spiritual requirements of the district,- and moved that
passing of the accounts be deferred for six months.
Subsequently, at the suggestion of several gentlemen r•
sent, Mr. Roberts withdrew his motion, reservin mereuntiliie:
future stage of the proceedings. The accounts
passed. ; .
- - tiny to
The Chairman, in reply to Mr. Roberts, explained of
a certain extent he was responSible for the care of 50„,,,t
all Liverpool but there- was. '-li limited "
they'

responsibility

an act whic-
totr.,
some portion of the district in q the
was taken off for Vauxhall, He wished N impress on
safe
meeting his own convictions that so far as darael
district was concerned it was as well attended to
other in the town. So far his responsibility endecti,7 e •
Mr. W.. Jones understood their object was to
report from the surveyor as to the present state of the,.

of- tbe -
Thech Rev.urch. J. H. Stafford explained the rev° °fro
original appointment, and said that he never understotionv
was bound to reside in the district;
nolo and as to the 6 e 0
duty he took his full share of it. The question °'‘ far
division of the-duties was one for the bishop, and
the commiioners
A reportss from Mr. Wylie, surveyor, was then read. inns
set forth the present state of the (lurch, which 061, in-
dilapidated condition, and that the necessary rePll°2bis

eluding a warming apparatus, &c., would e05t£895.,,,,-e ot
amount did not include works for anything in the 5° 'r
decoration
—,hat 14

The Chairman expressed a hope that, after Nil -gr.
been said, Mr. Roberts would be satisfied. '.tf of
Roberts could do anything to increase die nulll—osa
the congregation, no one would more rejoice at 1"

himself.- ha la"
The Chairman, owing to apresging engagement, t rden,
the chair, and was succeeded by the senior eflurchwa

Jones
..q

'min that tfre

Ihe Uuairman thought it right. to explai-
application contained in the report came: ober
churchwardens of St.. Paul's. They had u° P°4re•
nor an y funds to execute those repairs. The In311„-;ed
meat' of St. Paul's and St. John's churches del's' did
on the commissioners, but the churchwardellspore
not think it right, healing the condition of St" -their
churchl to slide out of office and leave the mattet,.tare,
successors. If they resolved to undertake this exrenjote,
of at least 41,000, that must be defrayed by a sl3lll/' thei
as the churchwardens of Liverpool had no fun's'

o.
would hav,to levy a rate on the parish.
Mr. R. A. Payne asked whether it wouldibe•fol
special rats or merge in the parochial rate.
The Chairman said, it would be out of the paroell'3„,adet
At the commencement of each year an estimate was" St.
and the rate would not cover £9OO to be expended cot the
Paul's Church.. If they resclved to make such rep.
rate rate next year would have to•be larger by V,OOO. ea.
Mr. Roberts thought the original district and t,Lke the
larg9d one ought to be incorporated, in order to.grrolis
ministers some more enlarged sphere of usefulness'
would have the effect of increasing the revenues -0 of
church and securing more eff&tually the perform. 3110111
the functions for which the church was the
endowed. He objected' to the proposed repairs nil
district was regally assigned to St. Paul's. ride°
The Rev. Mr. Stafford calledattention to a corresP°,,-,
which had taken' place with the- Bishop, as to toheell
district, the result of which was that the district 101 gr.
legally assigned ; so that there was such a thing td'isitict
Roberts required now in existence. A more legal 7,00
could now be made, and it contained more than
persons. t
The Chairman : Out of a district- of 7,000 you ge
at church. (Hear, hear)the
• Mr. Hutchison explained the• course adopted btithel
churchwardens as to the rates.. Having found tha
were improperly levied, they adopted a plan of seP,„satot
the rates, as to what was obligatory and what was"cir'lnit
That was the- plan now adoptect in the bills, ane-d th
worked very well. For convenience they niqua-nds
repairs of" St. Paul's Church, and certain- stipends
be paid out of the parochial• rate, and the 1eg:3114
of the day convinced them. they would be- dusts chose'
paying for the repairs out of the poor rate if theYbitset,
Those repairs were therefore compulsory on sot:cif,
to provide for. He might state- that £4OO had bee'iAt 11"
time ago authorised to be spent on that church,,,erefoOt
steps had yet been taken in reference to it ; t'so tt
the commissioners had £4OO in their possession, Or

it was only a balance which they had' to take
for. If they passed a resolution to spend 'MI w"
7ould. not have to be paid out of the special rate. °INA°
inhabitants, but only by increasing. the parochiaLl,r`A
the extent of td or Ad in the pound. He thong ".x. ant
ever, there might be a. balance at the end of theye,'„,'
ba
in that case they would not have to increase the 0", fear;
the expense could be paid, out of the rate levied it
He referred .to act 2, G 00..• 111., cap.` 68 rel;(311;
bound the commissioners to keep those churches as
and could not be shackled. by any conditions such

Roberts wished to attach to it
In reply to a question by
Stafford said that the bis
•

Roberts, the 14/
"Tar r

hop's secretary,

el' 11°
,t than

them he could not ziv
at pt

more legal daric

- „ hat.oef''
r. Johnson thought Mr. Stafford had sli'vr"-titon "ito
The really important cln
- -------- ...mild sanction at the Easter '-'4;%.
expenditure of £l,OOO out of the parochial r3tes
Tha church costa great deal of money, and, nor, i4t 11:35:d
ing the activity of the clergymen, all they out", ne,lic7t
that they owned the bricks and mortar. Theyh3u
materials. within the walls. Those gentlemen ,4" f
gd
had the success which usually crowned the efibrh-tr:11
hard-workino. industrious clergy. Certainly the ch—the Ph;
not secured the purposes of its founders, and which ;nen '
lie had a right to expect from the labours of clett.Y pub
something like £6OO annually out of tlies go
glen vow,, the question was, whether they
expenditure or not. He 1111(1 like
0
be desirable to

was. whether tli

funds.
the miler

know whether it wonl
to postpone it for twelve months, t

any increase took place in tee g.•.- tIls•
believed the public woilld grant the inoll but 10
were as well filled as St. John's—(hear, hear; t
Johnson) must candidly-confess that he would Otot eland
a churchwarden who would venture to propose :
with the present desertion of the people from th ipore_4o
especially now, when, meetings are being held here. vtbf
spiritual efforts ;- for if churches were too' large' oh;icerott
the use of building new ones ? With a vie,LL there
matter properly ventilated, he would propose '

of the sitrveyorj bePostpene-d-foithe present. the
Mr. Roberts seconded the motion. _ thatlfers_

The Chairm
cThurychshocuoirodeadi
esa.saini
ontwhersiotuhgllvittehreewiedhtehuaril:inhi
dealing
.a:viJ
the]othhsto; ie.:steeyoriac.t, t:::.
moneyhe they should take a business view of til'a wit'ix
well' ow
, _
---,.. reference to the question whether crtiast the
it otherwise. It apphur~lz• oa
00
4nnistera had done all they could in the ohareht e of li y
commissioners were called upon for theconvenieac spent!
people gathered together by a spasmodic offc'r t(fldbuinvi
slda.
nill i:t ltihoefet . money
nurch for that numlier for' half the mewl .`" a ine'
amounting £.l. 000. WhY, their; the 511,4..
old(Heheeara,thseuaerh.)anßeextpteernsdeo. that than Or:a
tv,,
the
Mr. Ctreohpispeehr, said that
aapsptroop,triheatebadlanthcoarcalialdi
"Mar. Hu • if e-ttra 'or
• ht say "You have been so 'be $ 4
~..,, and it would

mak e i

parishioners mi

we won't pay you another rate ► - foo
tion whether they could compel them•
the puthe rates on, on ei
with tea b
Mr. Hutchison said th t rotes on such POO
that all the parishioners might be dealt
oollee
The balance of the previous rate should be

church, th e edifice,
levying a new one. - ban •
Mr. J. R. Jeff
ery thought the first guestic* tlielort tfs
consider was
and prevent its
whether they were bound intoaP„,,,
thought
Parliament
there was no doubt upon that point— t", to 61
nothing
rent was explicit—but they were called 111)..°1ntb./0
with the more.e He certainly must express l_li:_'?,i01.110.,
going de,,c'e' set ro
him to hear the which riiade•
remarks had been 0 chin
he told them
44_, , he had a district of 7,000 soul; AOO -
n'un'wb nad. cost £13,000 originally; that X,..l.`ci ace&
attendance
to be spent upon it ; that be LL3 0010
11 for 1,658 persons to sit, and that the
_,,,0n ,
attendance was no more than 100 individuals7boore!
(Mr. Jeffery) had ' tie
told them that Mr. Stafford
for twenty-five all th 3 Sac
years, and after labouring tbot ss ..4
this was the result of his labours, it was clear
A (1 this 70
state of • things must be exceedingly •nful .c.ll Iver .t
pai • .1. tic ,i.
the more so, seeing that it was not in Rio A that be
relieve him. But he might venture to sagigf,e 0,1,0,0
was in his own power to relieve hill's° 1101(110
saw no other way than this—that Mr. Stafford not tilts;
It into his serious consideration whether be Ncotld gober
it desirable t 4 teitdor his resieati,4ll. ('"...

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