The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-04-04 00:00:00

opposed to the continuance of the grant to MaYnooth. f as an instance of the manner in which, under the plea
(Hear, hear.) But the gentleman says that Sir Stephen of maintaining the honour and dignity of England, the
Glynne is a party man. Now, I *deny that Sir Stephen honourand dignity of England are really sacrificed. In my
Geynne is in any sense open to the charge of being a party opinion, the rule for us to adopt should be this. When we
man. (Cheers.) begin a quarrel, let us make no demands except what we
A Voice : " Would you not expect him to vote for you conscientiously believe to be just and necessary. Having once
if you were Premier ?" madd these demands, lot us stand by them to the end. (Hear;
Mr. Gladstone : I would expect Sir Stephen Glynne, hear; and cheers.) Gentlemen, there are many points of
if I were Premier, to vote with me when I proposed foreign policy on which I might-address rani-but there is one
good measures' for the government -of the country of such impor-ance that I must not omit it. I feel bound to
(hear, hear, and cheers) —and I should expect him make some remarks upon the present war with Persia, because_
to vote for you when you are Premier, when you propose I it is not only important as a part of foreign policy, but likewise
good measures for the public. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) most important as regards the constitutional privileges of the
It is not true, then, to say that the course which Sir people of England. (dear, hear.) Last-year, in July, while
Stephen Glynne has pursued has been that of a party parliament was sitting, her Majesty's government sent out to
man. Sir Stephen Glynne was bred in the Conservative India orders to prepare an expedition against Persia. In
party, he was brought up in the Conservative party, and he. Septenaber they sent out orders requiring the expedition to
is deeply attached to the institutions of his country. (Hear, sail. 1 War was made with Persia, not a mere Indian war, but
hear.) He makes no secret of that. ((Hear, hear.) 1 a War made under the direct order of her Majesty's
believe I might say that lam . sometimes called a party government,-for Lord Canning, the Governor General of
man,lbut I am.convinced we, are all deeply attached to the India, took care to tell us so. How is that war
institutions of our country. (Hear, hear.) We may have to be carried on ? By what resources, and at whose
differences in our views upon certain qtiestions of policy, expense ? The East India Company naturally remonstrated
but it is not true to say of Sir Stephen Glynne that he is a against what they conceive the monstrous injustice of
party man in the sense of being a pledged supporter of any making the people of India pay the expenses of a war
party. When a Conservative iu his principles, he voted for orderedfrom home, unconnected with the peace and
the reform bill in 1832 ; when a Conservative in his tra quiiity of India, or with Indian interests. (Hear, hear.)
! principles,. he voted ' .for Sir Robert Peel's Th consequence was that her Majesty's Government have
, tariff in 1842 ; and be voted for a repeal ag eed with the East India Company that half the expenses
of the corn laws in 1846. Let me see, then, of the,Persian war shall be borne by th people of England.
whether that is the sense in which Mr. Mostyn is Now, my doctrine is, thatit is contras to liberty, contrary
a party man. It is not; on the contrary, lam obliged to to the English constitution, that such contract should be
tell yon that upon every occasion where Government had made by the advisers of the Crown, except with the, assent
an interest Mr. Mostyn has voted accrding to the interest of; the representatives of the people in parliament
of Government. I think we have come to a period of assembled. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Ido not believe,
great difficulty in public affairs. (Hear, hear.) You can gentlemen, that, you can find in history .a parallel to the
no longer understand the old party denominations. When case of the P.rsian war. (Hear, hear) Ido not believe
a man says he is a Liberal or a Conservative, it is a little you can find it in the times of your forefathers, or in
difficult to know whet in these times these words may your own times. I do not believe your fore-
signify (clear, hear) ; but it is still more difficult to know fathers would have permitted such a case, in
what the words signify, when a man says, "I am a which war was ordered, war has been made, war has
Palmerstonian," or "I am not a Palmerstonian." Gen- been carried on, negociations have been instituted, peace
tlemen, that appears to me, if I •may say so, to render has happily been concluded, the people of Epgland have
confusion worse confounded, and, therefore, as an elector been pledged to pay a large sum of money—we do not yet
of Flintshire, I come to the conclusion that it is time know what sum it will cost—as the expense of the war,
for us to consider, not simply by what party - name and the voice, and. the vote of Parliament has not been
a ministry shall be called—not simply what the asked in approval of the proceedings of Government;
name of the man at the head of that ministry (Rear, hear, and cheers.) I confess that this does appear
may he, but what are the measures , that he proposes for the to me what with confidence I may call a matter of the
country, and that we should endeavour to be guided in our most serious concern ; and it is in vain to talk of English
conduct solely by.refereaee to the merits of those measures. liberty,. if you surrender into the hands of any Govern.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not appear here as attached to any parties ment the right and the usage of making war at the expense
in opposition to Lord Paltneraton. I have, during the time of the British people without the consent of Parliament.
that Lord Palmerston has been in office, upon every occasion (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Gentlemen, I quote to, you this
supported him when I thought hint right, and opposed him instance, and I hope an intelligible iestance, to show that
when I thought him wrong. I voted against the motion made it is necessary we shoutd send into the House of Commons
by Mr. Disraeli in 1855—a vote otwant of confidence, which men who will be ready to check. and to control, and to re_
was made for the purpose of displacing. ',Ord 'Palmerston. I list the Government of the time when the Government goes
did not approve of that motion, and I voted against it. I wrong, (Hear, hear.) Such a man, I believe, you will
supported Lord Palmerston at the time when he made peace find Sir Stephen Glynne to be, because I have shown you, with Russia, and when many objected to that peace. I have that in former years he was a man ready and able to give
an independent vote. (Hear, hear.) Such a man, in my
opposed him partly in reference to some questions of foreign
opinion, is not Mr. Mostyn, the late representative of
policy, and partly in regard to questions of finance and
expenditure. These are my sentiments, but I am not Flintshireewhose votes, as I have said, upon every ques-
hate to pin Sir Stephen Glynne to my political 'creed. den in which the government had an interest have been
' Those do. not know the man who think that he is bound recorded in accordance with the views and wishes of
to the political (creed 'of any one, and I have shown the government. Well, gentlemen, still bearing in mind
you, that when, upon former occasions, he represented the preciousness of time, I shall pass away from questions
the shire. in Parliament, he was ready when occasion of foreign policy to another question which is one of
required it, to disregard the ties of mere party connection, necessary and primary, interest, namely, the question of
and to follow the dictates of his conscience in voting for the finances, :he taxation and the expenditure of the
measures•which, according to the 'concurrence of general country. (Hear, bear.) Because this is a subject upon
judgment, are admitted to have been favourable to the which the parliament lately dissolved has recently been
interests of the people. (Hear, hear.) But now, the engaged, and I may say that it is one of many reasons
proposition that I .want to show you, is this, that it is taken in connection with foreign policy, which led mato
time that we should send to Parliament, as electors of wish that men should appear in parliament who
Flintshire, the man in whose independence we can would be ready, if . necessary, to check and control
trust, in order that, though he should support - the the government. I do not , think, gentlemen,
Government when they are right, he should be
the state of things satisfactory. as -regards the conduct of the
'
ready to resist and controul them when they are government with respect to British finances, 'expenditure, and
wrong ; and in order to 'make good that proposition taxation. The basis of the whole 'subject is the expenditure
it is right I should show you that there are important of the country. It is useless to talk of repeal of taxation,
. unless you keep a firm hand and a firm control upon the
occasions when Government has been wrong. There
are great branches into which this subject would expenditure. If you, are disposed to allow great additions to
be made. to the standing, charges of the public both , for
naturally divide itself. One is the subject of domestic
mstbtebpere ppraerpead retdo
legislation; another is the foreign policy of the adminis-
civil aud
certain military
conclusionspu r o'
ines purposes,
thewh why then
You us
n you mu
tration ; and the third is their conduct with regard to look
taxation and expenditure. About domestic legislation, to see that we shall have a perpetual income tax. You must
I shall say nothing, because there is• nothing to say. be prepared to give up the further prosecution of those
(Hear, hear.) So far as regards laws and measures of amendments in your commercial laws, which I rejoice to
public interest, the history of this country has been think have added so largely to the trade of L'verpool. (Hear,
almost an entire blank for the last two or three years. hear.) You must be prepared to see a atop put to the rapid
But as regards the other questions, upon these I have a increase is the demand for employment throughout the
few words to say •to you, Now, gentlemen, perhaps 'the country, which has unquestionably had the effect of
subject of foreign policy that is uppermost in your adding largely to the comforts of, the labouring man,
minds may be the question with regard to the and which has by the cheapening of commodities.
hostilities in China. • (Hear, hear.) Upon that given him an immense increase of power and of
however Ido not feel that it is necessary for me to detain command over those comforts. (Hear, hear.) Now,
you, and for this reason, that I want to lay before your
gentlemen, how do matters stand with regard to the expen-
consideration those questions that are liktly to be con. diture of the country? I shut out the period of the war
tested in the ensuing parliament. As regards that subject,
altogether. It is vain to compare peace expenditure with
Core- I hope it is not likely to. be the subject of fresh
war expenditure. When once you get into war you must
troversy, because I believe that all political parties, without ask no questions, but just do what the military servicedem ends,
exception, do conscientiously approve —I certainly do ap- without scrutiny or enquiry ; but I think if wars are expen-
sive—if they add largely to the debt of the country and the
prove—of the selection which has been made by government
of a representative of this country to proceed to China, for the burdens of the people, that is an additional reason why when
purpose of composing those unhappy differences. I have we have got back peace we should endeavour to place our
great confidence in the character of Lord Elgin—in his establishment upon a tenting suitable to the actual state of
wisdom, his ability, his moderation, and his sound affairs ; and now, gentlemen, the time has come when the
principles, and I trust that all success may attend his electors of the country ought to consider. upon what prin-
efforte, and my only regret in reference to his mission is ciple and upon what scale it is that they wish the
that he was not appointed to it two or three months earlier. establishment and taxation of this country to be regulated.
(Hear.) But lam bound to tell you that is not the The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to show the
only question that appears to me of great importance, and that gradual inorease which has taken place from year to
deserves our consideration. In general there is too much of a year in times of peace in the estimates for
-,
hectoring and swaggering character about our foreign policy, , the army, navy, and ordnance establishment. In 1835
and The.effect of it is this—that when we are at the beginning the total expenditure, lie said, under these heads, amounted
of a quarrel we hold very high language ; we demand very to £11,700,000. After _that period it was necessary to
high terms ;es the quarrel proceeds we are obliged gradually to make various changes,. particularly in the creation of a
lower them; and finally to rest content with terms which we steam fleet, and that led to a greaeaugmentation of expert.
might have had at the beginning, but which at the beginning diture. From 1835 to 1838, the average expenditure was
we injudiciously and unwisely refused. (Hear, hear.) I £12,500,000; from'lB39 to 1845, £15,000,000; from 1846
think, and you think, that England has a great mission in the to 1852,416,000,000. A great deal was said about the
world, and a noble position. It has pleased God to give to insufficiency of our military establishment, and the
England immense command over the destinies of mankind, but miserably small scale on which it stood before the late war
it is most important that the power she possesses should not broke out. He entreated thew tot to follow too blindly
be abused. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) It is most representations of that kind, It was quite true that tliere Was
important that she should understand the true character of much in our military system that required reform, He trusted
that power, and I ask you how it is that we are to maintain that it would receive that reform: It had received some
and increase the influence of England ? In my opinion, if we portion of it, but they might depend upon it, When they were
are to set that great object before us, it is quite as necessary told of inefficiency, that it was not owing to undue. pars'mony
that we should respect the rights of others as that we should (Hear, bear.) There hut been no, undue parsimony tip the
maintain our own. (Hear, hear.) A firm, frank, and dignified part of parliament. (Hear, hear.) There had been no undue
course, and not obstreperous, bragging language, is, in my parsimony on the part of such men as Lord Grey, Peel, Wel-
opinion, the way to maintain that great object. Above all, let lington, and so many others who had been connected with the
us not allow this to be said against us, that when we deal with government of this ceentry. (Hear, hear.) It was an artful
the strong our language is weak, but that when we and dangerous delusion to practice on the people of this country,
deal with the weak our langnage is strong. (Applause.) to lead them to suppose. that the cause of the inefficiency of
These are, it seams to me, the true canons of . foreign their armies . was the parsimony of parliament and the
policy. (Hear, hear.) I cannot say that they have been limited scale of expenditure. He did not think £16,000,000
properly observed. Ido not think they were observed sp3nt annually, a contemptible sum. (Cheers.) Prussia
last .year, when Her Majesty's administration fostered and was considered a great military 'power, and he was sure
blew up a quarrel with the United States on the subject of that she did not expend one third of that sum on her armies.
the recruiting laws, and then when they had brought it to Austria was a great military' power, and be was convinced
such a pass that the government of the United States that she did not spend above one half of it, notwithstanding
dismissed our minister and consuls, we were compelled to the immense expenditure whio'a the extent :of her armies
acquiesce silently in the indignity. Ido not sly that it entailed on her. He might be told that these
ought not to have been acquiesced in. We had got to that countries bad no , navies to speak of,. but then
point wken there was nothing but a choice of evils; but there was Russia. which had' no less than
why was the quarrel ever made t Just so it was in regard forty ships of the line afloat, when the war broke
to the question of Central America, and the subject which out, and yet be did not think that her exoendie
during, last year arrived at a state so inflamed and angry ture amounted to that sum. Besides, novitheke were not
that absolutely we sent ships across the Atlantic, in order, the same calls at home for the service of the military as
as it was supposed, to defend the side we had espoused. We in former times. Liverpool and other large towns were
quarrelled with the United States about a petty island, protected by police, supported by the inhabitants them-
the name of which, I venture to say, was probably bef re selves ; but thirty years ago they depended on the aid of
never beard by the majority of the meeting—the Island ' the military—and yet, though the peace esteblisment in
of Ruatan, upon the coast of the republic of Honduras, .1852 was £16,000,000, the peace estimates this year were
which we claimed as British dominion. We set up a £20,500,000, and that did not include one single farthing
claim—an absurd claim to it, and we forced the quarrel to for the war in Persia, or the war in China. But it was
the verge of an absolute rupture with America.- I know not only in military matters that the increase in ex-
that the people of Liverpool will be ready to break even penditure was alarming. A spirit of laxity had likewise
with America when the honour of England requires it—. crept into the coil expenditure of the country: With
(hear, hear)—but I have a strong conviction that you regard to the military expenditure, there was no reason
who, better than any other part of the English nation. '
why it should be increased; but he did not venture to say
know the enormous importance of American intercourse the same of the' civil government, because of late
to this country—(hear, hear) —that you who know and they were doing many things which formerly they did not.
feel the importance of maintaining, not merely .a They largely'contributed to education and to the diffu-
commercial but a social, and what I may sion of art, and all these things entailed charges, and
call a domestic connection with America, that you with:tot swelled the expenditure of the country; but he frankly
approve of the policy which tends for no commensurate object avowed ha was greatly alarmed when he found tha' besides
whatever to put to hazard the maintenance of pacific relations the £4,600,000 which had been added to the peace estate
with that country. (Hear' hear, and cheers.) And what was lishment for military purposes since 1852, above
the end of that quarrel ? Why, the.end of it was this, that, 42,000,000 a year was also added to their civil expendi
having gone to the verge of an open rupture, in order to ture. He might show them, before he left the subject,
support the trumped up claim to this island of Ruatan, in the that he was not giving utterence to his own opinion alone
autumn of last year, about Seleember, I read with great upon it. This . extravagant expenditure was not
satisfaction the treaty concluded between Lord Clarendon and condemned by him alone. It had been condemned in the
and that excellent specimen of an American, Mr. Dallas, by House of Commons by every man of weight, excepting
which we made over our claim to Ruatan to the Re- those who were thorough going supporters of the admires
public of Honduras. That was , a goad act, but tration, and who naturally did not loo's very critical at it.
it should have been done before. (Hear, hear.) (Laughter.) It was condemned ;he would not quote the
Look, at the consequence of being unreasenable. The condemnation of Mr. Cobden, as it might be that
man who is unreasonable in the early part of a quarrel, be was too much.of an extreme man. He would not
and afterwards becomes reasonable, finds very often that quote the condemnation of Lord Derby and Mr. Disraeli,
the other party to the quarrel has by that' time as it might be that they were too much of party men ; but
become unreasonable too. (Hear, hear.) And so the he would quote the ()pin* of Sir James Graham, whom
treaty which embodies terms which would have settled he looked upon in all practical questions of administration
the whole matter twelve months ago, has not been to be, perhaps, the weightiest au:hority of all living men,
accepted by the senate of the United States. They saw and who, both in the House of Commons and at Carlisle,
that we had placed ourselies in a false position, just as condemned this extravagance of expenditure'. (Hear,
England saw that Russia did, in the beginning of the hear.)
,Ha would quote Lord John Russell, who never
Russian war, by her unreasonable demands. atm, that had been an extreme economist, and who, when . the
we have become reasonable we find them, lam sorry to estimates were brought up last February, said, that lie
say, a little disposed to say, " Tura about is fair play, saw no reason why they should not now have a peace
and we are going for a certain time to be unreasoe_eie esta"hishment, (Hear, la ar.) The. Chancellor of the
too." (Hear, hear) The good sense of both nations, I Exchequer never attempted to justify the present
trust, will put an end to this matter; but I quote it now estimates upon the plea that they covered a great