The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-04-15 00:00:00

the question of church rates. (Cries of" N. no.") I had
-nut theeslightestintention to-make any allusion to church
rates, and how anyone can by possibility suppose that I
did allude to church rates I cannot imagine. (kar, and
cries of "he wants to s_pint.")
Mr. Jeffery : I had hoped to save the time of the
Vestry by speaking on this question non, but as it is your
pleasure I shall reserve my observations on that subject
until it is brought before the vestry. Mr. Woodruff and
Mr. Shaw have assiduously applied themselves to. the
collection of the rates during the past year, and when I
tell you that notwithstanding the allowances made
by the magistrates upon appeals, empty property,
and sundry other claims, that there has been 83 per cent of
the.rate collected --(hear, hear)—an' that that hac been
progretssive since the year 1850, when it was-only 76 per
cent, I think I lay before pu the most substantial
claims for your vote to continue these two gentlemen in
office for • another year, and more especially when anziow=
themselves to withdraw, they have, at the earnest request:of
a considerable number of large ratepayers, consented: to
allow themselves to be again put in nomination. Hear,
hear.) I OM yeti the progressive increase in the col-
lection of the rates since 1850. In that year it was 77 per
cent, in 1851, 76 per cant, 1852, 78 per cent, 1853, 81 per
cent, and in the three last years, 83 per cent.
A Voice : D ) you speak of church rates or poor rates.
Mr. Jeffery : These are poor rates. (Laughter )
Mr. Bremner : That is not the du-y of the church:
wardens. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Jeffery : Our fri.nd knows perfectly well the res-
ponsibility in connection with the collection of the poet.
rates that devolve on the churchwardens. (Cries of "
no.") The church is so mixed up With oarish matters than
ydu cannot possibly separate them; (Heel., hear.) The
senior churchwarden is chairman of the finance committee,
and the junior churchwarden is chairman of the workhouse
committee, by virtue of their office, I believe. (Cries; of
Ife,' no," and laught-ie)
A Voice : It is only by election.

Mr. JArery : Well, by courtesy they are so appointed,
and that is admitted to bo sf.Tonl to law. (Loughter.) In
conclusion, Mr. Jeffery propmed that ,Mr. Woodruff and
Mr. Shaw be reelected churchwardens of thaparish for the
ensuing year.
Mr. Crellin sec-nded the motion.

Mr. F C. Carne denied that the churchwardens were
entitled to any credit for the collection of the poor rateß.
If credit were dui to any party, it etas due to the overseers
and collectors. (sear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman Dover suggested that the names of the
churchwardens be put separately.
Mr. Woodruff was accordingly first proposed for re-
election.

Mr. Alderman Dover said that he recollected a celebrated
schoolmaster, who told his boys that they should learn to
put their words edgeways, so that they would turn either
way. (Laughter.) From association of ideas, he was
reminded of that anecdote by the speech of Mr. Woodruff.
The fact was, that Mr. Woodruff had been to school, and a
friend of his, Mr. Jeffery, had beea his teacher, and he had
progressed most wonderfully in the school. (Laughter.)
There was no Jesuit in England who could have made a more
Jesuitical speech than Mr. Woodruff had done. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) He defied any gentleman, supposing Mr.
Woodruff to be elected, whether he collected the rate or not,
to say that he had not kept his word ; fir really ho had not
pledged himself to anything. He had not said that he would
do it, and he had not said that ho would not do it. (Hear,
hear.) He (\fr. Dover) spoke warmly, as he generally did
—(laughter) —but he thought he kept his temper, but he
would ask the meeting if Mr. Woodruff had kept his temper.
( Laughter.)
A Voice : Oh, come to the point. (Hear, hear.),
Mr Dover : Yes, I will. (Cries of " Vote, vote,"
" Question, question," and uproar.) Mr Dover continued :
Mr Woodruff most unfairly charged him wall boldness ; for
he could assure the meeting, on his word of honour, that in
putting the question he did' he had no desire, or rather it
was the last thing he thought of, to set one parishioner
againstanother. (Hear.) He was sorry that Mr Woodruff
had attributed to him such a motive, th ,t he sought to 'set
one parishioner against another, or desired to injure
the rector -or curates in the collection of their
stipends. It so happened, however, that supposing
he was influential enough to prevent this rate
being collected,- neither the rector nor the
curates would go without. their salaries, The rectors'
and curates' remedy was not against the parishioners. bur
their remedy was against the goods and chattels of
Messrs Woodruff and Shaw, if they were elected to the
office of churchwardens. Therefore, under any circum-
stances, the rector and curates would not go without
their salaries. He should confess that he was not satisfied
with Mr Woodruff,eand he would like to know from
him and his brother-churchwarden, whether they would
use all legal means without pariality or affection to
collect the parochial rates. He did not know, however,
considering all things, whether lie • would -propose an
amendment to the resolution-. (Laughter )
Mr Woodruff replied that he thought Mr -Dover's
allusion to Mr Jeffery rather complimentary than
.otherwise' and that. he hoped -in taking advice from Mr
Jeffery he had consulted the interest of the parish. He
had no objection to take advice front .M.r.Do.ver if he had
the ability to impart. any. (Laughter.) He did not ask
to be elected to the office, arid ho would accept it on no
other terms than as a free agent to do the best he could
for the nariAlioners. (Bear, hear, and cheers.)
Mr. Carne was about to address the vestry, bat his
address was cu short by cries of " Who stopped the
clocks," and great lauirhter.

Mr.WoodrUlf was then re-elected, only two hands being
held up in opposition.
Mr. E. Brancker moved the re-election of Mr. Shaw.
Mr. Bairstow seconded the motion, which was adopted,
only two hands being held up against it. - -
Mr. J. B. Livingtone and Mr. R. J. Tinley were
elected sidesmen for the ensuing year.
Mr. J. Nixon and Mr. T. F. Watkin were elected
churchwarden 4 of. St. John's, Church.
Mr. J. Brownbill and Mr. J. Williams wera elected
churchwardens of St. Paul's Church.

Mr. R. Hutchinson, Mr. 'rnomas Suiith, and Mr. Th.s.
Owen, were eleeted cOrarnissioneri of St. h'aul's and St.
John's Churches: •

Mr. Woodruff said: Sir, it is now my duty to bring
before the Vestry the question of ways and means, in
reference to the church, and I hope if -I lost my temper
in a previous part of the meeting, I will endeavour to
preserve it now. (Laughter.) The question involves a
great principle, and I hope, gentlemen, that you will
deal with it as becomes your interest, your feelings, and
icirr pockets. (Hear, hear) You 'are aware that up
to the year 1854 a church rate was levied
in this parish. I believe I am right in stating that in
1854 it was resisted on a poll and lost. In 1855 it was again
contested and the advocates of the church rate were again
defeated. It was thought probable after that that no attempt
would be made to renew it, as being too late in the day for
such an op.'ration, and as being exceedingly inconvenient in its
results. You were kind enough in 1855 to elect myself and
Mr. Shaw churchwardens for this pariah, and . following out
the feeling expressed by the parishioners by their vote on that
occasion, we declined to take any course for the collection of
monies other than upon the voluntary principle. (Hear, hear.)
We expected, and in that expectation we have not been
disappointed, that adhering to that resolution, and preserving
good feeling among all ,classes of the community—Roman
Catholics, Dissenters and Churchmen—we would receive their
support in carrying out the voluntary principle, and we
accordingly submitted for yOur adoption a voluntary church
rate of id in the pound. I have very great pleaeure in
stating that the rate we then submitted to the parish, in 1855,,
in a voluntary form, was readily and cheerfully paid by a large
portion of the inhabitants—(hear, hear) —and I likewise
have the satisfaction of knowing that a great number of
persons dissenting from the Church of England paid the
riuntary rate that year and last year that never. before
paid a church rate—(hear, hear)—and I have reason to
know, likewise, that a great number of p ple, being
churchmen, would not pay the rate in th, . two years
because it had. not been - forced from- or,. ‘r people.
(Hisses.) I shall not occupy your time very long to day
t
in offering many observations upon the undesirableness of
attempting a compulsory church ra e. I think every
movement around us shows we must go on progresSively
with the feelings of the times. (Hear, hear.) ' The
feeling of the times, as exhibited not only iii this town,
but in the country at large, is against coercive measures
of any kind for the propagation of -religion--(cheers)--
and when we find from the experience of these two
yeark3---.

- Mr. Alderman Myer rose to order :Mr. Woodruff wail
entering on abstract principles, and if he were allowed
to do so the same privilege should be accorded to others.
The Chairman ruled that Mr. Woodruff was in order,
bat requested him to keep as close as possible to the im
mediate question before them.

Mr. Woodruff continued: I was endeavouring to show
you that, whereas an attempt to collect a compulsary
church rate in this town caused great ill felling among
the inhabitants, without any corresponding, advantage to
the town, t would take him to •be the worst friend the
church could have who would attempt to renew it—(hear,
hear),—and that the course which my colleague and myself
adopted two years previously, and intend to pursue on
the present occasion, is better than the- other. (Hear,
hear.) I decline to submit a compulsory church rate, for
the best of all reasons, that I believe it is not compatiable
with the feelings of this community—(hear, hear)—and
also because I know that the voluntary rate, from which
many churchmen; who ought to be ashamed of
the nam,,, will skulk, and will leave it to dissenters
to pay—(hear, hear)—will be paid by dissenters, while they
at the same time support their oWn establishment and
schools. (Hear, hear.) I look with extreme contempt on
those who profess themselves churchmen, 'and leave the

burthen of its support to be borne by othere. (Cheers.)
If you want any further argument in &year hf what I have
I will take you to some of the churches in this town
that have endowments, and what will you observe as the
result ? Empty .churches. (Hear,. hear.) I will take
you to the churches that are conducted upon the voluntary
pririciple —I am speaking of the' Church of England
churches—and you will find that they are quite filled.
I will take you to the Dissenting congregations, the great
maj )rity of whom have no fixed stipends by law, and you
will find their chapels crowded. (Hear, hear.) I will
take you to the chapels of the Roman Catholics, who
have their own buildings and schools'to erect, end to pay
all their own expenditure, and their churches are.
crammed. (Hear, hear, and hisses.) Gentlemen may
hiss at my remarks; I care little for such an exhibition
of feeling. (Hisses.) I speak as I feel, and ram ad-
dressing intelligent men who know the truth of what I
state—cheers)—and I believe that those gentlemen who
are hissing ewill have very little argumentetive force to
present in opposition to my. remarks. (Hear, 'hear.) I
will not occupy your time any longer on this subject. I
have given you the reasons why we decline submitting a
compulsoryrchurch rate, and I now ask you to contribute
a voluntary rate of la in the pound, as last year, for the
church and other purposes. One fee-thing of that we shall
require for the repairs of St. Peter's Chureh, and that is
the reason I ask for a voluntary rate of Id in the pound.
Mr. Churchwarden Shaw r I beg to second the motion
that has been proposed by Hr. Cliuithwarden' Woodruff.
He has explained the perport of the resolution, therefore I
will not detain you with any lengthy remarks; if I did,
it might be late before we get home to night. (Hear,
heave) Gentlemen, I will simply second the proposition
(Cheers.)
Mr. Alderman Deeer said I Sir, I am net about to be so
assurriptious as to trench on your province, for, I can
assure youl, that it is not my wish to preach a sermon,
but as you have allowed Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff to
preach a sermon, you magi, in fairness, allow me to reply,
for we have had from him a sernion in support of the
voluntary principle—(hear, hear)—and he has condemned
the compulsory principle. (Considerable c mfasion.) It
was right that those who brought forward this subject
should understand the subject they discusied, and have
some slight knoWledge of the law. (Elear, hear.) Now,
there were some expenses that they Were bound to pay, ADd
there were sortie duties that they were bound to perform ;
for instance, there is the keeping the parish churches in
repair—that mast be done. ([tear, hear.) Now, Ido
not understand how, when Mr. Woodruff is called upon to
make the declaration at St. Peter's Church, which declara-
tion he has already taken—it is certainly not an oath, but
it is a solemn declaration—and I do say that 1
do not understand how Mr. Woodruff, or any other gentle.
man who may be elected with him, how they can lay their
hands upon their hearts, and say that they have performed
their duty without they attempt to have a compulsory
church rate for this great parish. (Cries of " Oh, oh,"
laughter, and cheers.) I say it is so. (Cheers, and " Oh,
oh.") You may say " Oh, oh," but t say you know
nothing about it. (Laughter,) lam keeping my temper.
(A Voice, "Do so.') You would permit Mr. Woodruff to
make his abstract propositions, and now you feel the
inconvenience of it. Now that [am about to reply—( A
Voice, "You have had many opportunities of giving us
your opinions, and you have made many speeches.") Now
it le.s been stated that the voluntary principle was all
sufficient. Now Ido contend that there is a great
difference between such churches as St. Peter's or St.
Nicholas. '['hey were the parish churches=-(hear, "hear)—
and as parish churches the public were in duty bound to
keep such parish churches in repair. (Hear, hear.) There
is a great difference between such churches as St. Peter's
and St. Nicholas, and others—l do not care whether they
belonged to the establishment or not—bat I say that there
is a great difference between such churches and others.
(Hear, hear.) The difference is, that in regard
to these two churches they are as much the property
of the people of this town as this building, or
the Town-hall—(hear, hear)--and, as that, I say
they have a right to be kept in proper repair
by the people. (Hear, hear.) But there is
another difference between these two churches and any
other. Some time since a most portentous document,
signed by Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff and others,
telling the pew owners that they need no longer extract
paw rents from the pew renters, because they had no right
to ceilect them (Cries of " No, no," and hisses )
St. Michael's and St. Peter's are your own property ;
therefore it is your-duty and it is your business, through
yenr_officers —and the churchwardens, are your officers—
I say it is your duty and your business to levy a church
rate on all the inhabitants of this town to keep those
churches in a proper state of repair. (Cries rf s' No, no,"
and hisses.) They might hiss, but I do say that if the
churchwardens had the power of taking the pew rents,
which no doubt they claimed, as the trustees of the people,
and if they have aright to do that, I say they have a right
to levy a rate to keepahose two fabrics in repair. (Cheers
and hisses.) Sir, T do not think the voluntary prin-
ciple has succeeded --(hear, hear, and cheers)—for
I find that a three; farthing voluntary rate only raised
£BOO, while a compulsory rate of one halfpenny raised
£1,700. (Cheers, and cries of hear, hear.) Will you
tell me rater that the voluntary principle is sufficient.
(Cries of " Yes, yes," and " No, no.") I say. it is a most
signal failure, I do not believe that it will ever last. 'lt
may do for a time, but what will be the ultimate result.
(Hear, hear.) Let them in the course of a few years take
in their voluntary bill for rates to Messrs. Jeffery,
Morrish and (Jo., and see what would be the result.
(Hear, hear.) I know the commercial spirit of
that firm ; but I know full well that such a rate would not be
paid. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) For my part I de not think
it of any consequence going into the question of religion that
is taught in these churches. That is not a question that is
before us. (Hear, bear.) It is of no consequence whether the
religion taught therein is the religion of the Jew or the Mussul-
men. I bought property—l rent property in this town, with
the express understanding that I was to pay church rates, and
I could not on principle, and I could not under such a solemn
obligation, resist the payment of the rate. (Hear, hear, and
laUghter.) Besides, sir, as I said before, the two churches of St.
Peter's and St. Nicholas's are, different to other churches, for
there the poor man can get married at a cheaper rate. (Hear,
hear, and laughter,) He can there get his children baptised for
nothing. (Cries of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") Do you,
sir, charge for the sacraments ?
The Chairman : No, sir.
Mr. Dover : Then, lam right. (Cries of " Time, time,"
and " Question, question.") I did not call time when your
protege was speaking. (Laughter.) I tell you the churches
are your own, and as such you are bound to keep them in
proper repair as much as your own houses, and if, as the
voluntary principle has failed, as failed it has, you have a right to
enforce a compulsory rate to keep those sacred fabrics in repair.
(Hear, hear, and cheers.). Now, I do pot know that
I have anything further to say,—(hear, hear)—
but there is no doubt whatever that if these buildings are to be
kept up, then you will have to resort to a rate, and if you do
not, then you will allow them to crumble to the round.
Besides the voluntary principle, to which I was always opposed,
has failed, and cannot be carried out, but there are other things
to which lam opposed. I would not allow music and singing
for the churches to be taken out of the rates. I would make
the congregations pay for them themselves. (Hear, hear.) So
you see that Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff is not half such an
ecclesiastical reformer as I am. (Cheers and laughter.) ' Mr.
Dover, ahen went on to say that he hoped the churchwardens
would keep up the bellringers, which could not be done by a
voluntary rare. What were they to do when the present
ringers died off? there were no young men rising up to take
their places, and therefore Liverpool, which had stood so high
in that dePartment, would sink into insignificance. What, he
asked, were they to do the next day, at 'the laying of the ,
foundation stone ?

The Churchwarden : The bells will ring.
Mr. Dover : But I say that you will not be able to keep it
up for many years. He then resumed his seat.
Mr. Jeffery then came forward, but was met by loud cries
of " Vote, vote."

Mr. C. Willnier : Sir, I wish to ask the churchwardens one
question.

-.The Chairman : The mover and seconder of the resolu-
tion has spoken, and Mr. Shaw certainly did not say much,
and I wish all gentlemen would, as far as possible, follow
his example, and we sholld not hsve so much eloquence.
Bat all have a ,righ!;,to speak here. Mr. Charles Willmer
was the first.geittlem who caught my eye, but Mr. Jeffery
first caught my ear, therefore I shall call upon Mr. Jeffery.
Mr. J. It Jeffery : I should not have ventured to occupy
your time .but for the rem Irk of Mr. Alderman D.:ver.
He has slid: a, great dell upon the abatract question.
(Interruption, enri cries o: Order ") I think—
,A Yotee : No 4), calico. (Laughter, and cries of
Order.")

The Chairman : I really hope, gentlemen, you will
allow Mr. Jeffery to speak. (Cries of " Yes, yes," " Nu,
no," " Order," and confusion.)
Mr. Jeffery We all listened to Mr, Alderman
Dover very attentively, and I ask you, as a ;body of
Englishmen, to give fair play. (Hear, hear, cheen, and
hisses.)

A Ve-oice : You are always speaking. (Laughter.)
Mr. J ffery : I shall not lose my temper. (Cheers.)
My patience will last quite as long as yours. (Cheers.)
I am quite willing to wait. (Hisses and cheers.)
The Chairman : Gentlemen, I must ask you to hear
Mr. Jeffery.
A Voice : There is no motion.
Mr. Jeffery : I was going to say, gentlemen—
A Voice : Come outside and-let us see you. (Laughter.)
Another Voice :,Show yourself ; I'll let you know what
you are in a minute.. (Laughter.)
The Chairman : Now, really, gentlemen, you know
that this will not do. (Hear, hear.) This is not fairness.
(Hear. hear,) We have always at these vestries allowed

gentlemen to say their say. It may be very ires me :mine-
times—(hear, and laughter)—but still every-p irishioner
has a right to speak. Mr'Jeffery has not spoken yet upon
this question, and, therefore, I think that he is entitled
speak, and I hope and trust that you will be, so good as to
hear him, and hear him quietly. (Hear, hear.) Recollect,
gentlemen, that we are not at an, election now. (Hear,
hear.) 'This' is a deliberative assembly, and all our pro•
ceedings should be conducted with flue deliberation, (Hear,
hear.) I beg You will hear Mr Jeffery.
Mr Jeffery : Gentlemen, I was going on to say that you have
heard remarks from Mr Alderman Dover in reference.to the
abstract vestion : and I was going to say also that I think
in Mr. Dover himself you have something like an; abstract
individual. (Cheers.) He told you that he was not going
to usurp the province.or the duty of our respected chairman,
the Rector, that ho was not going to preach a sermon to you,

• _ _
hnt he proceeded forthwith to preach a sermon, upon not an
oath, but a declaration. Now I had hoped that he would
have given us the wording of the declaration, because he pro•
ceeded to tell Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff, that he was a
great sinner indeed, for having violated his declaration.
But I do not understand that he violated any declaration in
the least, and he is not a sinner, therefore, for the course
which he thought proper to pursue, ass Churchwarden.
A Voice : " Read the declaration."

Mr. Jeffery : f had hoped that Mr. Dover would have
read the declaration to you. but it appears not to be here;

I have asked for the act and it, is not here, but the spirit
of it iS, that the Chntcliwardena should keep the
parish church, buildings, and edifices, in substantial repair.
It does not order them to imp use a rate upon the whole of
the parishioners. (Hear, bear.) They are called upon to
keep the edifices in repair, and if by a voluntary contribttr
!ion they are enabled to do sa, I ask you whether they are
acting in that case more in acclrdancs with the spirit of the
gospel, than if they did so by imposing a rate upon all the
parishioners. Sir, the established church is a spiritual
church, and should be spiritually governed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Dover told you that Mr. Churchwarden Woodruff was
a Jesuit, and had acted Jesuitically, and he wai good
enough to say that he had been my pupil, and that I had
been his tutor, therefore,' by a parity of reasoning, that I

taught him Jesuitry, and consequently am a Jesuit. Now,
upon his Commencing to address you he gave you to under-
stand that he would move an amendment—that
be would move somebody else in place of Mr.
Woodruff, having the mental reservation that he
intended to do no such thing, And sat down
after telling YOU that he would not do so. (Laughter.)
Now, T would ask you whether that was not personifying
practically the conduct of a Jesuit ? (Hear, hear.)
A Voice : He has left the coart.

Mr Jeffry : My friend, Mr. Dever, has gone out. I
am sorry he is not in the room, for. I contend that the
Working of the voluntary system, within the past two
yearS, has been successful, and I should have put the
question to him, in order that he might shew, if he could,
where it had failed I submit that it has succeeded to the
greatest desire of soy true churchman; for it has met fully
the demands of the churchwardens to keep the edifices in
repair. W
ii n saying, have beenthinthelaetyeart andp2oso,entfo
upwards,
theward repairss,l
believe
lam right of
St. Nicholas's church alone. By the voluntary principle
you belie raised, I believe, something like upwards
of £BOO. Now, I do say that that is a far
better way to go on in Ceeris Lan fellowship and
supportbrotherly
of
love,the andedfitcoe
s b raisey vtohleunnteac:s
contributionsa necessary u ndoins fpoerltlhit
nah
than
by dragging our friends into courts of lsz; compelling
them to pay what they conscientiously object 10. (Rear
and cheers.) As to the tirade we have been listen,:ig to
about bellringers, and having the church made a king; of.
hotbed for cultivating bellringers, and making them men
possessed of physical force, powerful enough to pull, great
bells—(laughter)—l say to those who ' love 'to hear
bells, let them subscribe, and they can have bellringers as
many as they think fit, and bell towers, in which they
may practise. But I, as a li:ssenter, say that I value
more highly that which is delivered from the pulpit than
that which is sent forth from the church tower.
(Hear, hear.) Mr. Dover has, with what I cannot
but consider very bad taste, thought proper to drag the
name of my firm into this building, and to speak
about what would happen if the bills were sent to me, leaving
you to understand that they would not be paid. I can 'only
say that I shall be very happy indeed if the churchwardens will
send me an order, and I shall trust to their honour to pay it.
As a Dissenter I must, as a response to the challenge, for so
must call it, of Mr. Dover, say that I have paid the voluntary
rate. I ask him has he done the same thing ? (Bear, hear.)
What did he say in the first address be delivered to you
to-day ? He said he objected to his being selected out to be
fired at. Why, sir, no man whatever has been selected .out:
Under the law which imposes the rate called a parochial 'rate,
which is a distinct rate from a Imes rate or parish rate, under
that law I am amenable to the rate, and when the collector calls
I pay him. Mr. Dover has had to do the same thing. I do
not consider that I have been selected out to be 'fired
at—why should he consider that he has been selected
out to be fired at? I have paid the rate as, a diss'nter
Mr. Dover has paid it as a churchman. We have both
paid it for the maintenance of the churches, which' are
maintained und,;r a special and peculiar act of Parliament,
Now, sir, Mr. Dover further says, and I regret that he
made use of such an expression, that he is sorry he had
not allowed himself to be summoned. I would ask him,
can he, as a churchman, really be sorry that he has
contributed, when asked, to the sulapo,t of a church of
which he professes to be one of the pillars ? In charity I
will assume that he did not really mean what he said in
the heat of argument, and I will therefore allow him
to withdraw the expression, being satisfied that on
reflection, he would rather he had not said it. I
think, therefore, that, all things considered, it is far
the truest a4vantage, not only for the parishioners mone-
tarily, but for the church s ArituaFy, that the voluntary
principle should be continued as it has been adopted for the
last three years, and I have much pleas ere in supporting
the proposition made to th effect. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. Charles Willmer said : I am not going to make a
long speech--I simply rise to ask a vestion. It is this :
I wish to ask the churchwarden what amount of money
has been paid out of the poor's rate towards the expenses
attendant on keeping the parish churches in 'repair ?
Mr. Woodruff: I am not aware of anything being paid.
Mr. Willmer : Than I shall put the question in another
shape. How many persons have there been employed
about the two parish churches, who are maintained by, the
parish out of the poor's rate ?
Mr. Woodruff : Probably some dozen or fifteen. I
cannot exactly tell you the number. Is it for cleaning the
churches you mean

Mr W iliwer : I dc, not confine you to that especially. I
do not wish to tie you to any special duty. I wish to know the
entire number of persons employed in the parish churches who
are maintained by the parishioners of Liverpool out of the
compulsory poor's rate ?

Mr Woodruff: Probably a dozen. I shall explain to the
mooting.

A Voice : It does not require explanation.
Mr Willmer: You will perceive, Mr Chairman, I appre-
hend, the point of my question. We are asked to grant a
voluntary church rate. Hitherto a compulsory church rate
has been refused by the parishioners. Now, I wish to know
whether it is the fact that, after the compulsory church rate has
been refused by the parishioners, the churchwardens have had
recourse to paying certain charges attendant on the churches out
of the compulsory poor's rate ? If that be so, it is virtually
getting out of the parishioners a compulsory church rate
in opposition to their own wish. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Woodruff : Mr. Willmer has made a statement
without the slightest fact before him to justify him in
doing so.
Mr. Willmer : Excuse me. I make no statement. I
simply ask a question.
Mr. Woodruff: Mr. Willmer having been an overseer,
and long connected with the parish, ought to be aware that
when we came into office and relied upon a voluntary
church rate, it was ab3oluteiy necessary that we should
economise our means in every form possible. We found
that the cleaning of the various churches would oost about
£BO or £9O. I believe the result was, that an application,
was made to the Workhouse Committee to say that as they
had plenty of ablebodied women in the house, we should
be very much obliged to them if they woald allow us their
servic2s, and we proposed to pay the amount of their labour
out of the voluntary rate. I should like to know whether
this meeting does not think it a fair application of pauper
labour, especially in the case of paupers who belonged to
the Church of England, if instead of sitting idly in the
Workhouse doing, nothing, they should be beneficially em-
ployed in cleaning the churches. (Hear, hear.) The cost
of their labour has-been paid for out of the voluntary rate,
and charged to the creclit of the p •or's rate. (Hear, bear.)
Mr Willmer: I beg leave to say that I am perfec'ly
satisfied with the answer, bat us a parishioner, and having
heard a certain statement out of doors, I felt it my duty to
ask the question, and I think the public have a right, to
know the way in which the matter was transacted.
(Hear, hear )
Mr Carne: Mr Willmer asked Mr Woodruff whether any
persons were paid out of the rates. (Cries of " Vote, vote.")
The Chairman : Mr Willmar asked if any persons employed
in the church were paid out of the poor rates, and he gage him
an answer.

Mr Came : I asked him if the clergy were not paid out of
the poor rates, and he replied that it was so. (Confusion )
Mr Woodruff: We do not want to go into the question now.
Mr Came : I ask Mr Willmer if he did not ask the
question, and Mr. Woodruff said that it had been paid. I am
not finding fault with the churchwardens for so doin,--it is
legal ; and, therefore, by law they are justified—but what I
complain of is the way_ in which the question was answered.
(Cries of " Vote, vote.")
The Chairman : I will now put, the question. It has• been
moved by Mr Woodruff, and seconded by Mr Shaw, that it be
recommended to the overseers to collect a voluntary rate of

one penny in the pound, for the repair of the church and other
purposes; - (Cheers.) As I do not hear any amendment, ,
declare the resolution carried.
The motion' was 'then carried, amidst great applause. ,
Mr Churehwarden-Woodruff then moved, and Mr atilt"
warden Shaw seconded the adoption of a parochial rate of C
ha 1 flie titiSram ab(i, pound. . .

This was adopted without opposition.
Ou. the motion of the Churchwardens, Mi Nixon and 3{l
Wiley were appointed the assessors, according to the act, s"
on the motion of the same gentleman. all the collectors of tbef
rates were re-appointed without opposition.

THE APPOINTMENT OF OVERSEE Q 3.
Mr Churchwarden Woodruff : Allow me to state, for te,
information of those present, and those out of doors, that I°o
some years past we have selected two of each party, and °,
this occasion we propose to maintain the same balance of poor
I think it will bo said where they have the making .stinst
collection of rates of more than £lOO,OOO during the years 0
each party should be represented. I shall, therefore, pro
that Mr W. B. Bairstowe and Mr Thomas Ow e° be
the
overseers for the ensuing year.

A Voice : Name all font..
ReMforraiWpo,odr uff : The r
ty;and two
the
two
gentlemen I h
Conservatives
av named
Ie
shall
lnoawre came
are Mr James °raffia and Mr Thomas Smith.

Mr Churchwarden Shaw seconded the vppointroent: :to to
The Chairman then put the three first names serial A
the meeting, and they were unanimously elected.
Before the name of Mr Smith was put to the meeting,
Mr Bail said : In the place of Mr Smith, I beg -lea
prolose that Mr T. F. Satchell be appointed an overseer.

Inis amendment having been seconded, bt be
Mr Churchwarden Woodruff said that perhaps it wig gs
necessary for him to make a few remarks on the subjecl"their
far from excluding Mr Satchell from the list, it had bee°
intention to have submitted the old list, and had called
Mr to know whether he would again serve. fro
S Itcbell did not give any answer then, nor bad they beard
him since, therefore he thought that they would not se ell's
Mr Ball assured the meeting that he had Mr 53`fe„
adntherefore,resw ouunldderwiththedcriavocunt;;oo
shat,nactiidonhofpeor proposingtha th:ithiuirn,
churchwardens
of Mr Smith.

M. Woodruff : I shall not withdraw his name.
Mr Ball : Nor will I withdraw the name of Mr
(Loud cries of "Go to the poll.") , ff/
Mr Denton thought that it would be a reproach to W
if they did not again re-elect Mr Satchelif who had d'O oil
etoof
served them for the past year. He had seen -'hat gee .I,cold
and he was willing again to servo them, therefore be -
support his appointment. the
•ds od

.hSaiddnbeeyensaaidtalhke
ahboaudtagwoiinslgr
t 0
00
there had subject then before the vestry. He did not think, ait.',-tliO‘
had the power of doing so, as to the appointtnen., for, if "n res
not in error, all they could do was to go to the poll, tel.
theslv poll, lfle,wthawt:e 0:1;
what names should be submitted to the magistrates, wtics
the power of the appointment. But there was another cre' the
of, as he conceived, far more importance than that beiol, the
vestry, and that was the unintelligible way in 'cu.-oak
accounts were kept. (Hear, hear.) He was a large 'cu.-
and.he felt deeply interested in that subject. Sg°, he
since, Mr Farnell, the inspector, was sent down,: the
examined the accounts, and at that time it Ileum-toted
rounds of the newspapers that not more than Id in t"" (IPA
of the rates was spent for the support of the poor
hear') If that statement was wrong, it should ,"-v: g'
contradicted at the time, and not allowed to rests 91°..„nui e
here we have been engaged for upwards of two beai- n Ps
cussing about a halfpenny or a farthing rate.'obier
would not detain the meeting with maul 0111
.vations, but should propose a resolution, and b,,! tbsi
did hope that he should have their support, to the eveL'iat ley
the accounts be printed in the whole of the Pa the
pool pap.ers, seven days before the audit.- The VestrY Pd
pow,R. expending£l29,ooo in the year, and he 70°ts,
that the rate,layers had a right to see how all that nientietore
expended. If that resolution was adokeed,, all vieui f the
the power of looktin over them, and then, on the day .° Roe
audit, of going up on his own account and objecting to tt
tb
he might think illegal. _He would say, in conclusion. t,OO.
money was most grossly ex? ended in the Liverpool e the
Mr l3airstow said that Mr.- Sidney could always oe
,01
accounts by going to the offices. met'
Mr Sidney said it would be inconvenient for trades 40,11
others. to go to the offices and look over accounts, w"..,rois
adopting his motion, each ratepayer would ;lave them to l'ibot,
at his own convenience. Ho thought such a subject 1150
tbs
where £120,000 was involved, was of greater imi'ertanc
cavilling.about £BOO. (Hear, hear.) , fors°
Mr Charles Willmer : Is it not necessary that tee v. if rot
should Jive within two miles of the parish church; and
are either of the two last named gentlemen eligible? but
The ahairroac : I believe that Mr Satchell does not, met
a ratepayer he is eligible, without he objects to it. co 9'.
him eligible. (Loud cries of " Vote, vote.") decided
A show of hands was then taken, when it was g,O
tavour of Mr Smith. but a poll of the whole rats eroyera
demanded for Mr Satcheff, and ste: a "'Vent ,c orgeek
at WEI
proceedings fixed for Thursday rforil;ll' ESTRYSIEN•
THE APPOINTMENT CHI SELECT V arderil
The following gentlemen were proposed by: the churchw
to fill the office of select vestrymen j syre
Messrs E Smucker, W Cropper, John Jones. pod
W Taylor, J Whitby, M Crawford, W Sone°,
Chestry, T Richardson, J M Tyrer, and B
Th 3 parishioners proposed Mr. R. flo7coe, G.
Ed. By ford, A. Wiiitwell, and James Evans. • 0,30,
A show of hands was taken on each of the abOe so >'
when the
,majority present were in favour of the Pe pjad
named by the churchwardens, but a poll was dew.'
in each case.

THE REPORT OF THE CHARITIES. f 06.
A very lengthy document was read as to the stateeoe of
several charities in the town, and it appeared that
bit° he
them was on the decline. Mr. Sidney stated t en'
would take it upon himself to write to the Charit/
missioners on the subject.
THE ACCOUNTS. rgia°o
Mr. Sidney then handed a resolution to the Chatpre
on the subject of the Publishing of the accounts ber p 0.01
au,licwhich subject he had alluded to at a fer"ie that ea
of the nveting The reeolOtion was to the effectbush°
e
full statement of the receiptiand expenditure bo? istatement
for seven days prior to.the audit in each of thb'

newspapers.
Mr. Rigby said he would second the motion.
.„ ell°l
Mr. Bremner Are you sure the auditors vt'
such an expenditure. hd

Mr. Sidney : Possibly not. P t° Pri
Mr. Bremner : Then how are the expel°
paid ?
Mr. Sidney : Pay them out of the parochial rate'
Several voices : No, out of the voluntary rate. to the
Mr. Sidney then reiterated his former remarks se:tbichr
necessi!y for adopting such a course of publication/ "
sere
he conceived, to be preferable to all others. aft; Is
Mr. Bairstowe stated that as soon as the ace°ll,--ey Wenaudited, any ratepayer could inspect them, as t"-'
then published.nuirte
. suit the rtei; hoe
Mr. Sidney replied that that would' not
wanted wag.tiditd,
mmts of the ratepayers. What they vrerc../d be
them fur inspection seven days before they ion could
and he did not see how such a pro Pei
objected to.
the
Tinted, WI;
Mr. Ball here moved an amendment, to effect, en
be
certain number of extra copies should p
supplied to the ratepayers at 3.1 each.
A Voice : Tbat will not do. .500
,000 asee,si g el.!
Mr. Woodruff contended that with the 45
it would be impossible to go to the expense of halt Ili;
the accounts published. They had public andiTTobi"
went over every item, and he was quite sure that -64
~6
wrong escaped their notice. eces'h-
Mr. C. Willmer said the exnense of printing the altere t-,e,
was already incurred. They were now printea: bef°'-
audit. If the expense was illegal for printing tbnie-afterg'
the audit, it was equally illegal for printing tben-esPee-i'
Mr. Sidney said he did not believe that such s-
ture of money was illegal. a Untg W's
Mr. Jeffery conceived thara publication of tbel.6 c°°
could 00t
only right and proper, and he thought £5O or '-
A nt :i'l
ha expended better.
After some further conversation the agierle ei -ill
by
withdrawn, and the resolution as proposed Mr'
-id°
unanimously adopted. 0
rella
THE BURIAL BOARD
The following report from the burial board Was then
by Mr. Enoch Harvey, clerk to the board. IA 00
RETORT;
vestry be, 4
" The board was appointed at a eneral ;;b banal
the 26th of August, 1856, under the provisions ''' -1;4,5'
acts of 15 and 16 Vict, c. 85, 16 and 17 Viet, c• tl3-t,
18 and 19 Vict, c. 128, and proceeded at once °ie ell
the U.-
top
the par.sh oflic..s for the despatch of business,
ia the Pohl
place having previously been advertised 6%
papers, pursuant to the act. a to
J
" The board proceeded to appoint their clerk, Banubec t 0
his remuneration at the sum of £5O per ane— '
tilaroval of the general vestry. biArll
"The board decided not to iucur the expense 6 b (-eel
an office at present, but to avail itself of the ParisreasB°
until the cemetery sitall b 3 opened, or until the lue .
A u i teAbeici busnEss shall render such a step necessary.
"'A committee was appointed to inquire for -,.6oeee'i
piece of ground for a cemetery. This committee P. coos.;
to push their inquiries in all quarters which theloael"
dercd suitable for the purpose, and' they farther°, pod;
offer.bited s
advertisements, inviting landowners to make
to be inserted in the public papers, and to be cshl
it °te e
the railway stations, a the6d
" The applications and off:irs consequent Il P
e! $1)01
steps bad the careful consideration of the camel etiog -t
sere moved by them to the board. At this Ine e
ofes
M
the board it was felt that there would be a ma lei
impropriety in disclosing to the world offers
_, ad
tl3O
0
landowners without their permission. Several 01