The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-05-30 00:00:00

THE
MERSEY CONSERVANCY
AND DOCKS BILL.

and a consequent reduction of dues, hut not to the exten
of the surplus. Believed that the landing stage at St.
G-orge's Pier was erected under compulsion from Birken.
head, and greAt complaints were matts that it h ul not
been erected by the Corporation instead 31' by to. I) tek
Commit ,ee. In 1855 the Corporation proposed to borrow
a sum of .E. 4 000,000, which was to be expended in pro-
viding turth .r dock a commod ition. The rroney was to
b. expended gradually, and it was expected that a profit-
able return wool I have been obained, at that ton, toe
Corporation had a surplus income of £6,000 or 7,0U0.
Mr. Alexander : Have you exercised any infl ience in
obtaining petitions in favour of the present bill ?
Wirness ; I have used all the influence I possess, or that
I could avail myself of, to hilly!, the co wrierciAl
rramities in the north, with whom I have b.-en in constant
correspondence in reference-to the Town Du,s, to support
the bill.

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Friday.
The committee resumed its sittings this morning at 12
o'clock, Sir Jam-es Graham in the chair. The other mem-
bers of the committee were all present. Mr. J. C Ewart,
M.P., Mr. Porsfall, M.P., and Mr. J. A. Turner, M.P.,
were also in attendance.

In reply ',to a question from Mr. Merewether, Sir J.
Graham said the committee proposed to adj.mro at the
close of the day's proceedings till one o'clock on Thursday
next.

The cross-examination of Mr. Heron was then resumed-
Ile stated that he was not aware that the Corporation
had any power of giving an indemnity to the conservators
for the exercise of any of their powers.
Mr. Merewether : I now come to another mat ter, which
approach with considerable delicacy, as the name of a
lady is concerned. I hold in my hand the copy of a work
entitled" Corporate Traditions awl National Rights
Local Dues on Shipping. By Harriet Martineau. Issued
by the Association to obtain the Right Appropriation
of the Liverpool Town Dues." Have you in your carpet-
bag a c ipy of the instructions on which that work was
written ?
Mr. Heron: Certainly not; nor do I know that any
ins. ructions of any kind were ever written.
Mr. Merewether : Written 1 Had you any opportunity
of verbally conveying information?
Mr. Heron : Never ; I have not the pleasure or knowing
the lady, and I never saw her, nor gave her any infor-
mation, either verbally or in writing, in reference to this
pamphlet.
Mr. Merewether : Then you do not know how the info%
oration got there ?
Mr. Heron: The pamphlet, itself, explains how the
information was acquired, iu a letter written by Miss
Martineau at the commencement of the pamphlet. 1
believe it was supplied by Mr. Whitworth, secretary to
the Association for Procuring the Remission of the
Liverpool Town Dues.
The Chairman : The Pamphlet is not referred to us by
the house.

Mr. Alexander ; How did, you evereise Tint. inflT,nce ?
Witness: I simply exercised it by eornmnrdeatinl, with
certain corporations and other authorities in reference to
the intended bill, explainin4 wh tt its obj c was, and
urging them to prepare petitions in livour or it..
Mr. Alexander: Have you torwaraedOrafts of petitions
to these corporate bodies ?•,j
Wiiness: I have.

Mt Alexander : To how many ?
Witness : A considerable t.O 05 rr ; and am glad :to
say that a considerable nu.nb .r h the adopted the
or modified it by presenting it to parliament.
Mr. Alexander: Was the draft pi eparekby you?.:
Witness: It was.
Mr. Alexander : How many Corp )mtions did you send
to? [5l
Witness : About 4) or 50.7 ET on'y sent to those wIJI
whom we had been in commulication for seine years, :12
reference to a charge which we ali feel to be unjust.
Mr. Alexander : Were the corpo.•at inns w tit wso:n v u
communicated all in the north of E igland ? 11;
Witness : They were chiefly ttere.
•
Mr. H. Bremner, solicitor, of Liverpool, he e prlpo, d
to examine witnesses on behalf of the Pilot Gimmlitee,
When

Sir James Graham said it would be ex' remely inconve-
nient to have the case subdivided lute sa inlay parts.
The inquiry would be interminable.
Mr. Bremner said the Pilots had entered an appearance
against the bill. They were altogether unconnected with
the Corporation of Liverp )ol and the 1./:)ck TrUstees ;
consequently, if not allowed to take a part in the inviry,
their interests would be entirely unrepre6ented, notwith-
standing that the bill, if passed, would affect them very
seriously.
After some discussion, in the course of which it ap-
peared that e Pilot Committee were not in atten'l tnce,
and that no notice of an appearance by counsel had been

Mr. Merewether I have no wish to go into anything
extraneous, but we are in this position—We are attacked
by compilations of different kinds in various quarters,
which have been extensively circulated, and I think it is
our duty to see how' they have originated, and who has
been the person principally engaged in getting them up.
Sir J. Graham : T do not question your competence to
test the cognizance of Mr. Heron with the pamphlet, but
he has given you a positive answer that he knows nothing
about it, and after that answer I think you ought not to
go into the subject matter of the pamphlet The commit-
tee would rather not go into Miss Martineau's pamphlet
at all, unless they are compelled.
Mr. Heron: No doubt Mr. Whitworth supplied the
facts.

given.
Sir James Graham said the Committee most for the
present decline to hear Mr. Bremner.
Mr. Heron was then re.examinee by Mr. Webstes. He
admitted that. the preamble of the bill ie referees() to the
statements which it contained with respect to the Pilot
Committee would require alteration. The Cheshire resi-
i ;Sir J. Graham : I believe that the committee have never dents had ferry rights, but the Liverpool Corporation in
read the pamphlet. For my owe part I can say that I constructing their docks hail taken possession of the land.
never heard of it before. If, however, you wish the COI- ing places, and had shut out the public from lan:line, on
mittee to read it, we will take your advice and do so. (A their shore. The Lancashire shore was a free share.
laugh.) The price of gas in Manchester varied from 4s. to 53. per
Mr. Merewother said he had not the least wish that the thousand, according to the celentity cones 'n,-i 1. In
committee should read it. 1831-2 the local rates in -el i eel-ewer amounted to
The cross-examination was then resumed. The witness 55. 4d.; in 1852-3, ss. 4d.; in 1853.4, 4e. 10e. In 18514
stated that he had no means of ascertaining the amount the poor rate was 4s, the township rate 81, highway rate
of the local rates of Manchester last year exclusive of the 6d, and water rate 21. In addition, a sum of .£s4e 000
poor rates, but he could give the rate in the pound, and had been expended by the owners of property during the
draw a comparison with the rates levied in Liverpool. last twenty years in sewering and paving streets.
There were small rates In Manchester called "town During a period of three years the average rates in
Liverpool had been 3s 101 d, exclusive of a watch rate'
dues," but the corporation did not receive them„:and had
no benefit from them. They aroso from a grant respect- while
rates
hadn Maa Manchester,
puntedches te r,
to withind . thelnsLam. everpperilodh.erthe
was
seal
:awe
wn,os
ing bonded warehouses. An application was made to the borough
rate, but in Manchester the borough r
Government by the Corporation of Manchester for a taken from the poor rate, and amounted to Is 64.1 in the
grant of bonded warehouses. Government said, "We pound. Had not included in the estimate a sum oe
will grant the privilege, but you must pa): the ex- £8,526, charged by Liverpo .1 for watch rate, Coca Ise,
pauses." ;The grant was made upon those terms, the in fact, no such sum had been levied, He thought it
Corporation bearing the expense and receiving the was impossible to separate the interest of the public from
proceeds of the income. If there was a surplus it was that of the railway company, in obtaining adequate amule-
t() be appropriated in aid of :the borough rate. The modation in connection with the docks at Birkenhead.
Corporation promoted a bill for that object, which was He belived that the - railway corapini.es were deeply
not drawn up by 'witness, but by counsel in London, under interested in an independent trust, and that the public
the directions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. By also were interested in the railway companies having
the 7th clause a charge was directed to be made for goods proper accommodation on the Cheshire side. It was most
brought into the town, whether lodged in the bonded important that the harbour dues should be appropriated
warehouses or not. If the goods went into the warehouse to harbour purposes, and it would obviously be for the
there would be a separate charge for rent. No schedule benefit of commerce generally. He believed that it would
of rates was included in the act. There were both gas be better for the interests of trade and commerce th it the
docks should be P the handsaud water works in Manchester. There way no gas rate, i. of a private company,
rather than in the hands
of the
Liverpool Corporation.
but the persons who took it paid a rental. There were
Sir James Graham remarked that that was altogether
two water rates—a public water rate and a domestic rate.
hypothesis. -• tee
The latter was a rate and not a rental. Both gas and
se-examination continued : The casein Liverpool was
water rates belonged to the Corporation, who made no very different from what it had been in other places.
profit on the water, though they certainly made a profit Power had been obtained by the C wporation of Bristol to
on the gas. So far as water was concerned, the Corpora- tax the town for the benefit of the s!dpoing; but in Li ver-
tion were almost excluded from making a profit. They pool the shipping was taxed for the benefit of the town.
gave credit for their receipts in respect of water, and the By Sir J. Graham : The gas wores in Manchester were
difference between the receipts and the amount of the not erected from the produce of rates on geode, :and the
annual expenditure was the amount which they were corporation h d
sod to e
a ceaxercise the power o levying
authorised to levy in the shape of rates. rates on goods in order to maintain the bond !f (1 ware-
Mr. Merewether : Da you not pay fur your water out houses.
of your gas surplus ? By Mr. Paget : There are no public works for the
Witness sail the gas works belonged to the Corpora- manufacture of gas in Manchester, except those in the
tion. The profits derived from the menufaeture of gas possession of the Corporation.
a recent period. By Sir J. Graham : The horde' warehouses still exist
were by Act of Parliament, till within
directed to be applied to the improvement of Blanchester'
Coro
Manchester, but they are in the hands of a private
The only means of improvement which the people of Man- eTohins pany, who have given an indemnity to the Corporation.
This matter has been made the subject of a mutual
chaster possessed were the profits derived from the sale of
arrangement.
gas. Whets they went to Parliament for pewee to construct
Sir J. Graham : But how is that private arrangement
waterworks, involving an expenditure of £1,250,000, they
carried out? Suppose a wholesale grocer, for instance,
proposed by such work to obtaie a supply far more efll- brought goods to Manchester, and became refractory, arid
client far the necessities of the city, and the Town Council; refused to pay the dues, how could you make them pay?
who were the representatives of the inhabitants at 'large Mr. Heron said he was not preparel to answer the
thought it would be a very desirable arrangement that question.
a portion of the gas profits, . which wore directed by act Sir. J. Graham :By the 7th and Bth Victoris, there was
of Parliament to be ~!plied to improvements, should be a compulsory power. Were dues levied on goods which
applied for a limited period to the greatest improvem eat were not liable to customs' duties ? .
svhieh could he effected, namely, obtaining at an enormous Mr. Heron : Certainly not.
cost an ample supply of water. They, therefore, obtained Sir J. Graham : But the case in Liverpool is different.
the authority of Parliament to apply for ten years one For instance : In an are icle of large consumption, such as
half of the gas surplus (38,000 a-year) to the expend i- guano, there is no customs' duty, but there is a‘eitie levied
tore for water, the remainder being expanded in impro v- upon it in Liverpool ?
Mr. Heron.: Yes, the Corporation levies town-dues
ing old streets and opening new ones. The Corporation
upon it.
looked upon thee() intprovement3 as most important public The examination of the witness being concluded, Sir
improvements. James Graham consulted with the oteer.. ineiribers ofthe
Mr. Merewetlier: But they are paid for nut of the committee in respect -o the application ol:Mr. Bremner to
be heard on behalf of the Pilot Co,nuWSloll. After seine
pockets of the gas purchasers. . discussion it was decided that. Mr. Bremner should be
Witness: In one sense they acre. Every inhabitant t allowed to cross-examine Mr. Heron.
contributed to the water rate, whether he took water or Mr. Heron, in answer to vario is questions' tram Mr.
not; but gas Was only wad for by the consumer • The 'three mint
oe
tr,gsnaelselt
ihoen had trd devoted 'e
.vvethryatareNaiteraSt4nCtioonnsit-:1-
Corporation of Blanchester were not the propietors of the araj'y Bill was brought in in 1855.
bonded warehouses, and coneequently received nn re et. 1 At this stage of the proceedings the committee adjourned
Any perzon might establish a bonded
,warehouse who till one o'clock on Thureday.
obtained a license. The Corporeion were empowered to
MC GRAND DUKC CONsTAN7INK.—The Grand Duke will
levy a rate for the payment of the officers, and other .ex.-I
arrive at Osborne about throe p.m., on. Saturday, and in
penees of maintaining tile system. order that Her Majesty may have the first intonation a
. signal officer has been Feted to telegraph the tact, anti
Mr. Mcrewether : I believe the scheme did not answer.
Witness: So far as the Corporation wore concerned It ' the Eurydice will do the honours of saluting. The ga ;rd
did not answer. .If there had been a large surplus it would - of honour is to consist of a detachment of the 93rd High-
have been derived by the Corporation without much lenders,
j A publican in the neigeilmerhooe of Swaweit gave
expenditure. out that the Gipsy Qi. ea was to be inarriel near his
The Witness was thou examined at, seine length in re- house. Thousands of people came, and he did a large
ference to the constitution of the Dunk Committee and of ' husieese before the matter was di.cciver,,il to be Ail a hoax,
the body which the bill would substitute. Utiles the A,, linnet ;mach' is to take pl2ce at Blackburn on Whit,
present bill any dock ratepayer, beim.: a British sublee te i Monday The %inner, or rather its oNins;r, will get, ;.
resident in any part of Eiiglanii, would heve a voice in copper kettle, tie I a parse of silver. .
11(814 IN The WAGES OF AGIMULTURAL LABOURFRB -
the election of conservators. D:d not think it was woes . , rise
labourersweigh
inhtahsetaken plice in the .weges of agri
sary that all the COMMitIn should reside upon the spot. l The
eul 11 greatr
a l North is attracting univerar
It might be desirable that the cheirrnan of • the committee ; attention. Toe advance within the last twelve menthe i
should reside uPoll fee :4;39', It naight, hndesirabl e that very marked, while the wages now given are in man
the Chairman of tit', Groat Wes.ern Railway shenel be a cases three-fourths, and in others nearly double, tho.s
member of the board- A,s the bill stood at present, if the which were ru-rent some twelve or fifteen years ago.-
dock ratepayers thought fit. all the members of the board Rinffsitire Journa/
might reside in Berkshire or Penzitece, and it was not Copies have been received from China of a carrespen
decce between the principal American firms at Clanton an
necessary that any of them should his coonc.etea with thc,
Commodore Armstrone, the commander of the U.S. squai
trade of Liverpool • ron. The American merchants asked for protection fc,
The witnesa was then cruse-examitied by Mr . Alex- Americ n trade, rhdcpho.innted outl that,a taoltitihoautgohrEAuneiric
ander, Q.C., who rep Cue Dock Trustees. The
illrir ac
iet?eme zees commerce
have almosti iannveaariar Leyclabeen indeb!-nd ogital
present members of the Dock Committee were very
forces of Great Britain for the protection of themselves ar
largely connected with cooarty.,rce, the only exception being
their p-operty, and that it is to thew forces also that the
Mr. J. 1101 Me, a builder, who was nornluated by the Town have chiefly to attribute the suppression of piracy on tl
Council. When a surplus occurred, the harbour dues coasts. The corre4ToP4:l(!q CI , not terminate satisfy
torily
were to be reduced. :.qctino.ye4ra ago there was a surplus, •
•