Northern Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-10-31 00:00:00

TIMES.=-LIVERPOOL,

THE RATEPAYERS OF TOXTETH PARK AND
THE PROPOSE() NEW WORKHOUSE v. VIE
BOARD OF GUARDIANS.

Yesterday morning a large and highly influeEtial
meeting of the ratepayers of the Extra Parochial Place of
Toxteth Park, was held at the Public Omees, Park Place.
Amongst those present we observed Messrs. 111. Gregson,
Joseph Wit on, H. I.7lland, J. IL Carter, A. Grind rod,
John Wilson, John Wood, David Craig, W. and J.
Baynes, J•.nathan R,olo:rts, John Briscre, W. Meuntfleld,
James Hughes, Thomas Rogers, W. Johnson, J. B.
Hugh's, Timothy Ryan, Thomas Urquhart, James J ,nes,
Joann Hook, Berj.Ba3les, Richard James, R. H. Higginson,
A. Berri'!, C. Molyneux, P. Honlgruae, John Lamb
M. A. John, W. W. Day, R. Fierer,,Scc ,
At the unanimous request of the meeting, Mr. M.
Gregson was called upon to preside, and on taking the
chair, reqeested the Assistant Overseer to read the notice
mvening the meeting, which was as follows :--
"Extra Parochial Place of Toxteth Pa-k—New Work-
house.—We, the undersigned Overseers of the Poor of
Toxteth Park, having received an influential arid nume-
rously-signed requisition to convene an early meeting of
the inhabitants in vestry, for the pari»se of considering
the expediency of erecting a Workhouse-on the t xten.4ve
scale proposed by the B and of Guardians, do hereby give
notice that, in compliance with such requisition, a public
meeting of the inhabitants of the Extra Parochial Pi ce of
Toxteth Park, being ratepayers in vestry, will be held at
the pnblic office. 24 Park-place. r,n Friday next, the 30:h
day of October, inst., set ten o'cl ck in the forenoon, for the
purpose named in the abcve mentioned req nisi ien —Joseph
Wilson, Henry Leyland, Joseph ir Carter, Arthur G-indod.
Overseers of the Poor of the sail Extra Parochial Place of
Toxteth Park ;J. Bowler' AsSistant Overseer. Public
Offic?., Toxteth-park, 25.11 October. 1857."
The CilittimLx then said, that he wt uld explain to these
the olject-of their meeting together on th t occasion. On
the 2nd of Octob r Taft there appeared in the newspapers;
a report of the Workhouse Camosittee connected with the
B •atd of Gaardians for Toxteth Park, which report re-

- .
commended that a workhouse, capable of accommodating
1,000 paupers shou,d be built for that township. That
',port was unanimously adaptel. The rstenarer., seeing
the resolution sf the guardians, hep:an to consider amorgst
themselves, whether a building of such an est nt was
really necessary or rrquired for the wants of the township.
The cost of such a buildirg would (wail, at the least, an
expen, iture of £l2 OfiO, th) intercet on which would be
£1,600, which must annually be levied on the ratepayers
Of the township. He would just direct their attention to
a few otatueical facts in reference to, the subject. It

a:peared, f=om the la t can.us, the whole popu-
I:Von of the West Derby nil, n, was 153.243, and
that the average number oe pani.ers is the workhouse in
1844 was 635. and since the hospital has lyea erected, the
average number has been 64. Siuce 1848, the lowest
number of paupers in the workouse has been 494, and the

highest 735, which was in March, 1855, when there was
great eistress throughout the country. He also found that
'1 ()Vent P.rk had b.en separated from the West
Derby Union, that the average number of paupers belong-
ing to Toxteth Rirk in the vrorkhouse had been 350—the
lowest nu,rnbir hating been 338, and the bigb.st 370. The

population of Toxteth Park was about 70,000. From those
figures, he thought that all would see that there was no
necessity whatey.ar for the gaardians asking to erect a
workhouse that would be capable of holding 1.(!00 paupers,
when it was clearly to be seen that from 1848 to the pre-

.•
sent time, there had never been, even before the separation
of the union, more than 735 paupers in it at one time
(hear, hea-)—and with such an itntnen-se popula•icu as the
whole union cantaired. He woull next refer to some
statements which had been Troeured from other unions in
the kingdom, some of which were almost precisely placed
in a s illation to what they wev, and would show
what population such unions contained, what the work-
house accommodation was, and what was the average number
of inmates in thoss workhouses, and after lie had
alone so, it would be for the ratepayers to say, whether it
was desirable that they, in Toxteth Park, should have a
workhouse so far beyond in event of accommodation what
was really repaired. (Hear, hear) There was North
Shields. with a population of 64,248, its workhouse accom-
modation was for 376, and at the pres--mt fine there ware
215 paupers in the house. B4rnsley had a population of
63,870, and its workhouse was bult to accommoda'e 20.5.

, -
Tee next was Neweastle-nnder-Lyne; there they had a
population of 0,156, a workhouse that would Recommit.-
date 950, and the number of inmates that was in that
workhouse was 553. This workheuse, he believed, was
hui:t under the impression that Newcastle wet 11 much
is er'rise in buildings, end in the commereo of her port; bat
it did not appear that there bed been such a large iecrease
in the number of paupers. That might be con idered as a
eve similar to then-Fel ccs. Then there was Prescot; that
place had a population of 55,000, and its workhouse was
built t.. uotporrsrnnrlmto RA A mad Son-
derland ; elect p'ace had a population of 70,000, the same
as Toxteth Park, end its workhouse was capable of
accomtraelat hog 450 paupers, but was erected so, that if it
were necessary, it might be extended so as to give
accommodation to 600; the present number of paupers
in it were 350. Then there was Ashton-under Lyne,
with its population of 119,199, and its workheuse
would accommodate 500 paupers. With these
statements before the ratepayers, he (be Chair-
man) thought they would be of epinioa that th y would
be right iu metraorialiaiog the Guardians, for the purpose
of recommending the B ,ard of Guardians that they should
not go to the expense of electing a workhouse capable
of eceommodatieg 1,000 paupers. (Hear, hear.) The
assi,tant ofersecr had else prepared a return, showing
that in twenty werkhouses, connected with diff-went
unions, the p ,pulation of which average 77,000, they
have only in each _in ion wo khonse accommodation for
552. (Hear, hear.) But to another point, he had heard
it stated that the architect hid given it as his opinion
that it would be a matter of great difficulty to erect a
workhouse for a smaller numb w than to accommodate
1,000 paupers in such a way as to be able to extend it
at any future time if it became necessary. He thought
that such a etatemeet must be wrong, and he had not
such a low opinion of the arebitec's as to believe that
they could net make a plan which could, at a future
time, he enlarge!, if the requirements of the district
thiught it was reeessary—(hear bear)—for he found that
that in S and nil they had built a workheu e to
accommodate 450 paupers, ei h the distinct ilea that
should it. be rreriired, it could be enl rrge 1 so as to
accommodate 6)o.(;)ear, hew.) That showed that it
w.s practicable. (Hear, hoar.) Hot having made those
observatione, and brought before their notice such statis-
oc al returns in relation to other places, he would leave
the matter in the hands of the ratep tyers for them to
make what remarks they pleased on the sebjece and
make any propositions they thought fit. (Applause )
Mr. Wens sail he had lived in Sunderland, and be
knew that there was no town in Beg'ar d where the trade
was more [intuiting than'it was there. Sometimes, as
the trade was chiefly co fined to the ship-building and the
coals, there was great prosperity; et other t'mes there
was great diet rest and paup lisle, and then the rates were
excessively high ; but be theught that if the people of
Sunderland did of leg tire a workhouse to accommodate
mere than 450 pauners, that one of the same extent would
fully answer the purposes for the ToxtethlPaek. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. JOHN WILSON Said he hid much pleasure in rising
to propose the, first reecOuti an, en I he di i so because he
thought it was the duty of all ratenaee a to cone forward
on such an occaci one (Hear, hear) A few d tys since he
had a requisition Placed in his hands, requestirg him to
go and get it sig ed fur the purpose of convening the
present meeting-. He did ea, and of all the persons, and
it was most numer,usly signed, he asked, there was only
two in the Toxteth P.rk who refas d to do so. ('Tear,
hew.) With one person he had a great deal of c inversa•
tion, and he htd pointed out to him the parish of Leeds,
which,' with the adj scent out-townships, contained' a
population of nearly 200 000, and yet they were only
building a workhouse e ipable of accommodating 800
paupers.
A RATFPAYER That is only far the town.
Mr. JOHN WILSON It is fur the whole parish.
The emelt:mete : The town of Leeds cant lies a population
of 101,343, and the workheuse accammodates 750 paupers.
IFI r. WILSON Sp, ke of the whole district and the work•
house was orety for 800. They had been told that in Toxteth
Peak the e was to be a workhouse for 1,000. What was the
necessity ftr such a building. (Hear, hear.) It hail been
s,id that the arch:tact tout t not make a plan for a less
number, but he thought the proper plan that the guardians
should have pursued would have b ten to have advertised
for plans. (Hear, hear.) He ci I not wish to say anything
to the disparagement of the guardians. but he did say that
instead of going on a visit to Charley-on- Recheck and other
places to g in information, it would have been better for
them to have advertised for pl me, and gained ieform than,
than spending the ratep averts' money in that way. (Hear,
hear,) He would move, " That this meeting, having seen
by the report of the proceedings of the guardians at their
weekly meeting, held on the Ist instant, that it is proposed
to erect a workhouse for the poor of the township, to
accommodate one thousand inmates, and having also seen,
in the same report, that the number of inmates in the work-
house belonging' to Toxteth Park at that time wee 361
only, and the number of patients in the hospital 40, being
a total of 4'l, are deeply impressed with the opinion that
it is inexpedient and unnecessary to erect a workhouse of
the extent ?ropes d." fie would further add,, that it bad
been stated that since the separation of that union from
that of West Derby, it had been the wish of a twat of the
guardians to send a great number of the industrious and
deseivi g poor, who bad heratotore been receiving out-door
relief, into the workhouse, so as to magnify. he number of
paupers, so as to justify the erection Of this great building.

Hear, hear.) He would not say anything hard of the
guarlians, but he must say that it was trying at a great
pplause).
Mr. BENJAMIN &MAE had much pleasure in seconding
the resolution.

Mr. GRINDRID, as one of the Guarrli ins present, thought
he had a li3ht to a, oak. (Hear, hear.) Reference had
b'ert made to the Guardians going to Medloek and other
place. lie WaS one wt.o went Vivre, and he really thought
that much good had been derived from the vi-it, for it had
convincA him, that a smaller establishment wets all that
was rig .fired, and they had gained much information as to
the plan., &c. He denied that it hid been the object of
the biard to fill the house for the pLrpese that had been
stated, hut that they had thoroughly investigated every
case, and had done all in their power t) curtail the number
of paupera, and be thought ftoli what he had seen at the
boa d, that lee should not he in error when be stated that
such was the fact. When he stated that ha spoke from big
own extyrience and what he had seen at the board—

The CLIAIVIA.N.—There is ro charge against the board,
there is no doubt but that they have paid every attention
to the cases, and that they have acted for the best.
Mr. GiumettoD.—Bat I b g tos ry th at I am in favour of
having a smaller house. (Rear, herr )
Tire CiIAIRAAN then read the weekly return of paupers
in the West Derby Workhouse since Jcly, when Toxteth
Park was separated from the union. In that week there
were 342, and it had increased from that time to the
present week 34. •
Mr. Gatitortop—Twat increase may be owing to the die-
tress in the town, and to the slackness of work.
The CEIAIRAIAN—Th it may have had some eff et.
Mr. Jona WILSON requeseed permission to reply to tree
obser vett na that had been made, but the appliea ion was
refused, on the grounds that it was unneca•stry, as no
amendment bad been moved.
Mr. BRI,CON said, as one of the Beard of Guardians, he
thought that he should be allowed to make a few remarks,
althoegh that meting might be soneieered as a meeting
of ratepayers only. As he was not present at the meeting
of the Board on the previous day, he did riot know what
had been done in reference to the sew workhouse, bat as
that Wig, strictly speaking, a meeting of the ratepayers,
he thietet he saould not be doing his duty if he did not
give some explana ion, with a view of setting some remarks
right. It had been stated that the rates would be consider-
ably increased by the erection of a workhouse, c ,pable of
h +ding 1,000 pattrere. Now he was well assured that the
rater would not be increased one penny more by that, thee
it' they had one that would only held 500 (Laughter).
They were then payirg rotes for West Derby Workhouse;
but when they got a workhouse of their own they would
not have to pay to that workhouse. He did' not
believe, then, if the taw workha use should cost £30,000,
that the rates would be increased one penny in the pound.
With reference to the sin of the Workhouse, there was an
order from the Poor Law Bsard that all Workhouses should
have err ingements f'r twelve easees—which meant that
there should be twelve separate compartments for each
&ass, but the Guerliens had a wish to have 14:which they
tbentht would be for the good of the po rr, and for the
benefit of the township. As each of these compartments
had to be separate aid distinct, each surroundelby a wall,
it would he impt.ssible at any future time, after the building •
was erected, to eularge those compartsnents—unless they
fettled the whole building down, aid erected it again. '
(L tughter end tokens of disapprobation). Besides, they
must not suppose that the Geardnns were erecting the
present betiding for the day, they ware looking•to the
wants of the next generation—(laughter)—for 50 years to
come. ( aughta). Something had been staid about an
additional number of deserving peepers having been sant
into the Workhouse since the separation of Toxteth Park
from the West Derby Un;ort. (Bear, hear.) That may
have been the case, but might it not have erns, from the
fact— hat since then the poor had been he ter looked after;
he did cot make any complaints as to what bad previous!,
been dace, but still, the B 'aid were brought into closer
connection with the poor, and it might have been found de-
sirable that the Workhouse could be offered to
many who hal heretofore received cut-door relief.
If they had a large Workhouse they could apply the
Workhouse test, which was very desirable, for be could
tell the ratepayers, that while he had kat at the board, he
bed seen parsons come there for relief, who bad friends
capable of supporting them, and whoa the workhouse
was offered them, they went back to sueh friends, and
did not etme on the rates. This, he contended, was a
saving—fad thereore, it was bitter to have a large house,
where sueta a test could be applied, than to pay out-door
redef.

AR 'MAYER : Toat would not be cqu 1 to 83.6'.
per week.

Mr. Barmen: There were teary persons, who were
receiving out-doer re'ief, who ought to be in thee work-
house—such as children wile bad no pereocs to look after
en—and perso-is above 70 years of age, who would be
much better done by, than they coot _
For hle part, hs tt,o.,ht iney ought to have some regard
for the poor ac watt as ft r the po .kets of the ratepayem
lle should, however, be teeny to ato the rates increased
above what they then were, and he though', by having
su:h e w trkhouee as bed been seggeeted, that the rates
wceald be s ored. (laughter.) He did not know whether
he should receive the tanctieu of the board for whet he had
said, and in standing u ) t ► apologise for them, but he
tyoutd deny that they had ever cerrtemplated any j ,b, and
Clad perfectly clean hinds. (Laughter.)
.A RATEPAYER What about Baoirmas'er. (Laughter.)
Mr. Samoa. The Board have clean handq, aLd are
ready to meet any charge that may be brought against
them.
A RATEPANHa : Yes. What abeet the appeinement of
Clearer—( liight-r)—and then givirg him an assistant ?
(Laughter.)
The Asses CANT OVERSHER begged to co-ree. Mr. Briscoe,
and sailkthat the rates must be increased 51 in the pound
by the expenses that would be iscarred.
Atter a brief conversation, the motion was put, and rine-
nimeusly adopted.
Mr. JOSI:PiI Wits et said it had been asked what amount
they had to pay towards the West Derby workhouse
Teat was difficult 'o tel', for the accoun s of that uni n were
kept in such a wa that it would puzz'e a Philadelphia
lawyer to find it out. -The money was paid oat in suites of
£ :CO and £3OO, and then a call was made on ths toweships
but nobody could tell what it was Ur. ]fen for the last
gainer that they Were connected with that union, the cell
on that tewnship had been £2,000 more than it was in the
preview year, and cobody eon Id tell what it was for. After
various exertions, for many years, however, they had suc-
ceeded in getting separated from that union, and he hoped
that it would be for the benefit ef the township.
The CitAtuati.N suggested that it would be better to keep
to the subject of the workh else, and not go into extraneous
ma ter relating to West Derby union.
Mr. J iseen WthsoN rail he would do so, but be would
first tell the ratepayers for the last three mon•bs that that
township had beeu connected with the union, they had
been charged £530 for the usain'enance of the poo-, £ll2
for the sick, and £1,074 14s for hotteehold charges.
(Shame.) If it was not then time to beee a separation he
did not know when it was. (Clear, hear.) In reference to
the subject under cenirideration, the new workhouse, he
did Lot .hink that :he Tostich Park Board of Guardians
had shown that they pot•-sssed the talent essential for
such a Board in recommenling a workhouse for 1 000
pit:perm, whoa other .unioes, with three their population.
had not one so large. (H-ar, hoar.) It had ben s :id that
it would cast no more for a workhouse to contain 1,000
paupers than it would fur one for 590. 13 the fl tst ptac
it would ees'. £1,200 more—it would require more line,
additloaal Want, an additional staff, and additional furni-
ture—the list of which items must be paid fir out of the
rate., us they could not birrdw m)ney for that purpose,
and where .Cl,OOO was to corns from (-inept out of the
rates, he could nor tell. (1-1-!ar,hea,.) A;ain, he th tight
they had been wrong in their c eleula'ioris as to the it:larvae,
in pauperism—they had calculated that it would increase
in a ratio of en--half of the population, but he could not
see how that could be the case, for if they looked either to
the east or to the' west, they would find that the land that
was unoccupied would be used fur erecting houses for tra les-
men, and thereby would increase the trade, and diminish the
rates instead of increasing the number of p inners—(hea.)
—and again, 'eceordiog to the 'statistic's of F 'teen,
the Poor Law Inspector, who was the greatest authority
that could be quoted cn such matters, he found th it it
would reepire a popeleti3n of 160,000 before they required
a workhouse to accommodate 500 paupers, (Hear, hear )
He cone uled by movieg the following resolution :--
" That, in the opinion of this meeting, a workhouse fer the
tccommodalon of 500 inmates, and an hospital for the
accommodation of 100 patients, will be a nely sufficient,
and meet all the r q tiremen s of the township fur meuy
years to come
Mr. J. H. Theanis seconded the resolution, which was
una iimeusly adopted.
Mr. URQUHART, in m ring the next resolution, said it
had not been his intention to take any part its the present
u.eeting, although he felt impresssed with the ilea that it
was unnecessary to have a workhouse for 1,000; but he
did expect that the Gu irdians would have furnish td some
de:a far such as undertaking. lie thought that they had
calculated that th,y were to gob ckwar is, for they had e ti-
mated that, in a few years, 1-70 of the population would he
paupers. (Laughter.) After briefly reierring to some
of the arguments, which he said had ben so ably
answered by Mr. 'Joseph Wilson, he moved the adoption
of the following resolutio' :—" That a resp.-e:ful memorial
be p-epared ueder the direction of the chairman, to be
pre,ented to the Guardians of Toxteth Park, embodying
the opinions of this meeting, as cxpressd id the foregoing
resolutions, at .d ,that tie chairmen be requested to sign
tch mem rial on .behalf of the meeting, and such rate-
p tyers who may desire to express their opinion thereon."
fir. J*UN w =QM 000911ded the ros9lution,, and in doing