The Express.
London, England, 1863-07-14 00:00:00

NORTH AMERICA (CONFEDERATE STATES).—
Mil. ROEBUCK'S DEBATE.
Mr. ROEBUCK—Sir, I rise for the purpose of moving
that this order be read with the view of its being discharged.
(Hear, bear.) Sir, I hikinglit forward this motion under
• feeling that I was abaft to ask the house to take a std
which I hoped would put an end to the terrible carnage
now going on in North America, and also thinking it would
be of infinite service to the commercial interests of Great
Britain. Fee so doing I have been subjected to much ob-
loquy. That obloquy his come from a very noisy, if not •
very wise party. (Laughter.) I mast say my present de-
termination has not been influenced thereby. (Heir,
hear)) The noble lord at the head of the government his
said he considered that the continuance of this debate was
an impediment in Warty for the good government of the
country, and its interests. (Hear, hear.) 1 have paid that
respect to the noble lord's wishes and feelings, and I be-
lieve I have induced my bon. friend toforego his feelings in
this matter. When the noble lord sat down on Friday
lest my hon. friend and myself felt perfectly satisfied—
or very nearly satisfied—and if nothing more had beet
said there the matter would have ended. But official arro-
gance is a plant of particularly rapid growth— (langbter)—
aid the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
thought fit to bring charges against my hon. friend which
be thought his honour and his feelings called upon him to
answer. But a little 000 l reflection has taught him that
insinuations such as these, coming from quarters such as
these—(oh, oh)—were not to be regarded by him. (Oh, oh.)
He thought the considerations placed before him by the noble
lord were so grave that he ought to forego any feeling on his
part of wounded pride, and that be should only
seek the interests of his country u pointed out by the noble
lord. Now, since the matter is about to per from
my control, there is one observation which I will
make to the noble lord, who has at this moment • great
responsibility upon his shoulders. (Hear' hear.) It has
been stated that the time is not yet come for the conside-
ration of this question, sad I have yielded to that sugges-
tion. But, sir, let the noble lord bear in mind that there
are two dengue before him which he will have to meet, and
which England will have to meet. One is the possibility of
the reconstruction of the Union upon a Southern bags, and
the other is the acknowledgment by the Emperor of the
French of the Southern Confederacy alone. These are the
two great dangers for England. (" No, no," and "Hens,
bear.") Tee noble lord will, I have no doubt, with
his long experience, fully justify the confidence of
the poop,e in him upon these two great question*.
I leave them without hesitation in his hands, though I
' must say my own feelings are against the withdrawal of
them from consideratioa at this time. England and Eng-
land's interests, I say. demand the decision of this house,
and it is only under a fading of great respect to the noble
lord that I now move to withdraw this motion. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY narrated the circumstances that led to
the late interview of himself and Mr. Roebuck with the
Emperor of the French, and the conversation which
ensued at the audience with his Majesty, and which in sub-
stance were almost precisely the same as had boon detailed
by the hon. member for Sheffield on • former night. He
believed that all the Emperor meant was that if it was
the pleasure of the house to ask her Majesty to address
him on the subject of the recognition of the
Southern States he would be only too happy to enter
into negotiations with that object in view being of
opinion that if the greet powers of Europe thought it ad-
visable to recognise the South, the moral effect would be to
stay the frightful carnage in the States. Replying to the
attack of Mr. Layard on Friday night, and to the Mainers.
tion that he, Mr. Lindsay, was an amateur diplomatist and
meddling busybody, the hoe. member said that, for the last
three years he had been in communication with the French
government on the subject of the maritime relations
between the two countries, sod that with the knowledge
and unction of the English ministers. It was they who,
in fact, had sent him to Paris, and desired him to do the
work which they themselves ought to have done and
with the knowledge and approval of the Emperor be had
invariably reported to the English ambassador at Paris
every word that his Majesty had said to him. He hoped
her Majesty's government would not press him to say more.
Viscount PALMERSTON—I think that my bon. and
learned friend has acted rightly in the motion he his made
to discharge the order, because, for reasons which I stated
on a former occasion, no good could arise from resuming
the lapsed discussion. I cannot, however, refrain from ex-
priming my regret that he and the hon. member for Sun-
derland should have mixed up with that motion an attack
upon my hon. friend the Under Secretary for Foreign
Affairs. My honourable friend bad merely acted in the
spirit of what he conceived to be his official duty in what
he said in replying to the hoc. member for Sunderland on
Friday night. I hope, however, that this is the hut time
in which any member of the house will think it his duty to
communicate to the British House of Commons that which
may have pealed between himself and the sovereign of a
foreign country. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to impute
the slightest blame to my two honourable friends who, I
believe, acted with the best intentions., but at the same
titnel wish to impress upon them that the proceeding they
adopted was most irregular. The British parliament
has to receive messages and commimioationa from the
sovereign of the United Kingdom, but we have
DO relations, communication, nor intercourse, nor any
official knowledge of the sovereign of a foreign
country, and it is not our function to receive communications
from a foreign sovereign unless they are made by the respon-
sible minister of the crown in consequence of official com-
munications from that foreign sovereign. If the Emperor
of the French and the Weep of England have any oommuni-
cation to make to each other, they have their ambassadors
respectively in Paris and London, and these latter are the
proper organs of such communication, not the legislators of
either country. If either the Emperor of the French or the
Queen of England wished otherwise to publish their lutes-
twee they have their ministers in their respective parliamente.
If the French parliament be not sitting the Emperor has
his official organ, the Moniker, for denial or assertion, and
although we have not is this country a corresponding official
organ every one knows that there are means of making known
anything of importance during the recess. Nothing, there-
fore, min be more irregular than proceedings of this sort,
even setting aside the constitutional objection which I hold
to be • grave one. When ear ambasudor at Paris or a
minister here makes & communication, he makes it as • re-
sponsible individual who is bound to state what is correct,
but we cannot have that security in the ease of a private
individual, and therefore I wish to place on record our
opinion that this proceeding is entirely irregular and
ought by no means to be drawn into a prece-
dent. I do not find the least fault with the hon.
member for Sunderland or the boo. and learned member for
Sheffield for communicating with the Emperor of the
French, but the course which they should have taken was
that which the hon. member for Suoderland had taken on
a previous occasion, namely, communicate the result to
bred Cowley. The hon. member for Sunderland bad truly
stated that he had been in commuuiratioe with the Em-
peror of the French during the last three years respecting
matters connected with commerce and navigation. My
hon. friend implied that he was employed by the British
government, but that is notexectly the fact. The boo. member
told us that he was going to Parisi, and that front bin knowledge
of commerce and navigatioo, he might be able to convey
information to the Emperor which would be useful to his
Majesty in framing his maritime code. I said that my
noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affair' would les
very glad of the hon. member's assistance, and letters of
introduction were consequently given to him to Lori Cow-
ley. So far what wu dime was perfectly regular, well-
considered, and wisely intended, but then my boa. friend
went on to say that having returned to thin country,
he offered to communicate to my noble friend and
myself the results of his labours, and some other communi-
cations he bad received from the Emperor. I wrote to him
from the country stating that if, in consequence of the re-
presentations and information given by my hen. friend, the
Emperor of the French bad bad any proposal to make to
the British government, that proposal ought to come
though a responsible chaonel, as it is not the practice of
the British government to carry on what be might all •
double diplomacy. We had an official rapreseid&tive in
Perim, and 1 thought it highly objectionable that we should
have also • private one. That was what I stated, and my
noble friend and myself thought it better that we
should not receive any communication from my boo. friend
as coming from the Freoch Emperor. This determination
was come to in no disparagement of my hon. friend's tier.
Coos in Paris. It was simply that we thought it highly
objectionable to employ an individual in such matters in-
stead of the regular channel. My hon. friend has referred
to the mission of the hon. member for Rochdale, but that
was a totally different matter. He was employed to nego-
tiate, in concert with our ambassador, and although ha was
too high-minded to receive any salary, be was a regular
diplomatic agent, employed for a specific purpose. The
bon. member for Sunderland, on the other band, was
merely a private gentleman going over to give
information which he possessed in an eminent de-
gree, and therefore my noble friend and myself thought
it not desirable that we should receive communications
through my hon. friend. I should hope that this dimension
will end here, and I trust that we shall not have any further
discussion of • similar nature. My hon. friend the member
for Sunderlaod observed that if he were the busybody he
was called he would find "sot at home" written on the
gates of the Tuileries. Well, I think that discussions like
them are not very encouraging to the Emperor to open the
doors to English members of parlismeet.
The O'IMOCHUE had one observation to make on the
discussion which had just taken plane. Before the motion
was withdrawn he wished to enter his protest against the
spirit of hostility to Aroerioa in which the motion of the
hon. and learned member for Sheffield was conceived, in
order to free himself from the possibility of an imputation
of sharing in the smallest degree those vindictive feelings
which had taken possession of the boo. and learned member's
mind. (Hear, hear.) His ours feeling, towards America,
North and South, were helium of Ike most unbounded
gratitude and the warmest affection, and he ventured to
state, on the part of the majority of his onsintrt men, that
they entertained similar feelings. (" No, no." and " Hear,
hear.")
Mr. WHITESIDE considered that there was no country
in Europe which required the discussion of this question
more than Ireland, ler then it would be showa thee