The Express.
London, England, 1863-06-16 00:00:00

Mit P.X rEESS. TUESD.IN

IMs notified to some amendments is this bill, the amend-
ments some speed to, and the big was read a thiid time,
and poured..
Then lordshipe adjourned at '2J 'plunks after 6 o'clock.

. _
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MoNDAT, JrNs 15.
SPZAW took the cheirehortly before 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

•
The lords' amendmeots on the following bills were con-
aidered end agreed to :—The Central Wales Extension Reg-
war Bill ; the Dublin Corporation Water Bill ; the
Knighton end Central Wales Railway Companies Bill ; the
Mid Wales Railway (Branch, &c.) Bill ; and the Tremor.
Embankment Bill.
The following were read a third time and passed :—The
Binniegbarn sad Batton Coldfield Extension Railway Bill;
the Devoe Valley Railway Bill ; the Haddingtooshins
Roads Bill ; the Landon and North Westela Railway (New
Branch Lines) Bill ; the Teedring Hundred Railway Bill ;
sod the Wexford Free Badge Bill.
The following were read a second time :—The Lands Im-
provement Company Bill ; the London (City) Trak Regu-
Isbell Bill ; Sligo and Ballaghaderreen Junction Railway
Bill ; and the Meux's Estate Bill.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
THE COURT-MARTIAL AT Mnow.—By Mr. CONINORAY,
to call attention cm gooier into committee of "apply epos an
early day, to the court-martial on Paymaster Smiles, and to
move a resolution thereon. (Cheers.)
THE DISTRESS IN TIM COTTON DISTRICTS.—BT Mr.
FEN:RAND, to ask Viscount Palmerston to-morrow if he
would appoint on an early day a morning sitting for the
second reading of the Public Works (Manufacturing Dile
tricta) BiIL
THE lONIAN DILANDS.—ME. S. FITZGERALD, to ark the
noble lord on Friday next a question respecting the assent
of Turkey to the proposed cession of these islands.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Colonel TAILOR, a new writ was or-
dered for the borough of Lisburn, vacant by the unseating
of Mr. Barbour.
TELFORAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH NORTH
AMERICA.
Mr. CAVE asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's government had re-
ceived information respecting an iMernational conference,
which, according to the Moniteur, had been opened in Paris
for the purpose of examioirg into the project of a telegraphic
line from Europe to North America, via Brazil and the West
ladies, and whether any steps bad been taken for the re-
presentation of this country at such conference.
Mr. LAYARD believed there had been a conference at
Paris respecting the project to which the hon. gentleman
referred. Proposals had been err le to her Keret> 's go-
vernment, but they were of opinion that in consequence of
the engagements to which they were already committed, it
would not be advisable to take any part in the scheme.
COLONEL MELVILLE WHITE.
In answer to Colonel FRENCH,
Mr. LAYARD said that a despatch bad been received
from the Peruvian government, ins.ructing their agent here
to come to au undone-ding with her Majesty's government
as to to foreign Power to which the cam of Colonel White
should be referred for arbitration.
THE EXHIBITION BUILDING.
The house having gone into committee of supply,
Lord P LMEBSTON rose to propose a vote of money
for the pure& e of the Exhibition building and lands at
South Kensington. In doing so, he observed that the im-
mediate objects for which the government desired to make
the purchase were au addition to the British Momenta Pod
the extension of the Parant Office sod Museum and
the Portrait Gallery ; sod supposing that the lend
were to be acquired in a more central poeitioo,
eight acres—which was the smallest estimate—.cod
buildings would cost 1,500,000 f. ; five acne, 1,107,C031. ;
and three acres—the lowest estimate-750,C M. In
contrast with this, the proposal he bad sow to
make was a very economical one, and would give a greater
command of space at much leas cost. He proposed, then,
that the public should purchase 17 acres of the land beloog-
ing to the commissioners of the International Exhibition,
and which was covered by the building in which the late
Exhibition was bald. For that land the commissioners were
willing to take 120,0001., and 80,C C3l. for the building
thereon, so that for 20(1,0001. the nation would enter into
poesesion of the whole. To make the buildiig substantial,
however, would require 154,0001. ; the conversion of the two
glees domes into brick would cost 40,Cr11. ,• the stucco orna-
mentation of the fronts 45,C00/., sod other improvements
and alterations would bring the total to 4134,C20/. He
assumed that the whole building should be repaired, med.
solid, and adapted to the purposes for which it was wanted.
For the present, however, not more than one-half the
structure would be required to be so treated. That being
the con, the 184,0001. in excess of the purchase-money
might be equally divided, so that 142,0004 was all that
need be spent for the next year ; which, added to the
200,0001. for land and building, would come to 342,0001. as
against 750,0001. if the land were bought in the centre of
the metropolis on the smallest scale—three acres—on
which an estimate bad been made. It was not intended to
remove the National Gallery from Trafalgar-square, nor to
send the learned bodies to Kensington. In conclusion, the
noble lord moved a vote of 67.000/. on account.
Mr. GREGORY, in proposing the rejection of the vote,
said that the arguments with which the noble viscount had
supported the project were as unsubstantial as the founda-
tions of the edifice which be asked the house for the means
of purchasing ; and if the motion were acceded to the
house would be reversing the decision at which it arrived
last year. The question at issue was really a working man's
question. They were going to bring together parte*
patents, birds, and beasts, and create an minium pother em
pie at Kensington, a scheme which the house always pro-
tested against, for it had been proved before a select com-
mittee that the natural history collections of the British
Museum were moat popular, and that the visitors who at-
tend:3 them greatly exceed,ol the whole number to the rest
of the eatabliabment, and in tnnsferring these collections
from Bloomabuiy W Kensington they were in fact Liking
them from the poor and giving them to the rich.
The next point was with respect to the "marvellous bar-
gain" of which the noble lord spoke. He wanted to limy
one of two tbion—first, why had the commissioners of
1831 given them this extraordinary bargain ? Why had they
not sold the ground to the government for its full value,
and invested the proceeds in the manner in which those pro-
ceeds were to be applied, namely, for the promotioo of
meioses and an—(bear, hear)—or if they did not choose to do
that, why, is the second place, did they not hand over the
whole of the ground to the government at once? (Cheers.) He
heard various stories of an extraordinary character
with respect to it. He heard that the commissioners
could not do that, and were therefore obliged to
adopt this middle course; and why! because they
were he was told, involved—or rather had, involved
the mosey which they had obtained for public purposes,
in a private undertaking, namely the Horticultural Garde/reef
The reason why, as he (Mr. Gregory) understood it, they wen
to get the marvellous bargain from the commissioners was,
that the commissioners wished to give something to the
government in order to get back something from the nation
to recoup the money which they had spent upon the Her-
Unita& Gardens. (Hear, bear.) Now the sum of money
they were called upon to pay for the building was 364,0001.,
sad the noble lord called that a mavellous bargain. He
(Mr. Gregory) said it was an enormous sum of money to pay
for converting what was a mere make-shift into a
permanent structure, because rubbish was dear at any
price. (Cheers.) He was borne oat in that conclusion by Mr.
Mellott. the eminent civil engineer, who pronounced that
the building was " unfit by any amount of outlay short of
its reconstruction to become a depository for antimal col-
lections deny sort." (Hear, bear.) They ware about to
involve themselves in omelets and reprehensible expenditure
in order to draw into one place the different scientific iosti-
tutioos of the country— a principle against which the House
of Commons had more than once protested. He for one
did not wish to see all those institutions coming into the
grasp of that craving,
_meddling, flattering, toadying, &r-
-eeking clique that had established itself at Kensington—
(cheers)—that bad been doing good business there and now
wished to extend their operatioos. Public opinion was
beginning to get very sore upon this point (Hear, hear.)
One of the best critiques on the matter which bad vet ap-
ed was published yeaterlay in one of the periodicals of the
day. The writer said that the building was far from
popular - (hear, hear) —but that the people compacted with
it were more unpopular still, and that if it should happen
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Disraeli,
who were agreed on the subject, failed to bring op their
contingents and suffered defeat, it would be owing more
than anything else to the increasing dislike of the public and
their representatives to the parasites who had fastened
themselves upon the institutions at South Kensing-
ton, and were expectants of the new kingdom come
which was about to be established there. (Hear, bear.)
All be could say was, let the government give up this scheme
and come to the House of Commons next year with a well
prepared plan for a moderate-sized National History
Museum, and let the house have a plan and specification
before them, sod the. they would know what they were
doing. They wanted a patent office, but they had already
150,000/. in hand for the building of a patent office. But
he implored the house not to purchase this building, for if
they did they would entail upon themselves perpetual
mortification and disgrace, and they would involve Unm-
eshed; in an expenditure the amount of which it was impos-
sible to calculate. Not only were they uncertain as to what
would be the mot, but they would be putting the coping
stone, the pinnacle, the crowning act to that artistic aa
architectural degradation, for which he regretted to say
England was already too notorious. (Lood cheers.) He
moved the rejection of this vote. (Wes of " Divide, divide.%)
Lord ELCHO seconded the ea:sediment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the ques-
tion before the committee at that moment was, whether or sot
they should take the eaten offered to them by the commie-
einem and his hoe. hind said they ought to have laid
before the house &peacetime containing meet minute
details as to the made in which the whole of the seventeen
acres were to be disposed of. Mr. Hunt had done
this thing
,the time occubsoi frienda.
badbi:
hunoannle nhadot sahib*" o,ePaid wfoorril "'as Hie
eaten
and for aughtli rtheMy alikostewi toin the cetiagtraryht
might be merely a day or a couple of den. His hon. friend
204 that by this propcaed purchase of lead at Kensington
they WOW, robbing the poor for the benefit of the rich ; sad
be said that the British Museum was the site to which all
old have the easiest access,there and that would
Crollel could
facility of acme to South Ken • too.
MM hoc hind mot boar In mind that a fiunt:lnial

change was about to be made in the facility of communica-
tion from one part of Loadoo to another. Even one yearago
the facility of locomotion by railway between distant parts
of the metropolis Was an unsolved problem, but now was
proved to be perfectly easy, and in the courseOf few years&
ring of railway °mammals:mien would beoompleted,sod South
Kensington would be os the line,aod so JIMMY theserailways
were made every point on the line would be far better for
communication with any distant point in the metropolis
than any point that was off the line, and, therefore, what-
ever might be the relative advantage of Swath Kensington
and the British Museum at the present moment, that advan- •
tage would be altered enormously in favour of South Ken-
sington. But what was the present state of the case ? His
boo. friend said that no visitors went to South Kensington. I
(" No.") Then what did he mean when he said they were I
going to rob the masses for the beoefit of the rich ? The Bri-
trah Museum had the advantage of a collection which had
been in proems of accumulation for more than 100 years.
The South Kensington Museum was the child of yeaterday-
It was in 1853 or 1864 that he proposed the first vote for it.
The visitors to the British Museum in 1862 were 895,000,
and to the South Kensington Museum they were 1,20,000.
[A Miami : That was the Exhibition year. 1 He was
quoting the same year for both. (Laughter.) Of mares it
was a greet disadvantage to him to go back bemuse it was a
rapidly growing institution, but in 1861 the viniton to South
Kensington were 604,000, and to the British/40mm 641,000.
He believed that less than a third of the visitors bad at-
tended in the evening. (Hear, hear.) His hop. friend said
he was in favour of aslight extension of the British Museum,
but he gave his irresponsible opinion spinet the opinion of
those whose duty it had been to make a responsible exami-
nation of the question. The hon. gentleman said they were
going to adopt "the monstrous scheme" of Professor Owen.
The government had a very different opinion of Professor
017011 • but still, taking the plan of his noble friend as they
ou wld:there would be a saying of 300,000/. or 400,000/.
Would the hon• gentleman say that three acres was an
irrational or monstrous space for a natural history rollec.
tion ? He was sure he would not; but if he
did not, the ground was cut from under his feet.
(Hear, hear.) It was absolutely the duty of the govern-
ment to take the judgment of the house as to whether they
give 80,0001. for the buildings at South Kensington ; but
that was not the question now before the committee. (Hear,
hear.) The question before them was one that had been
blinked and evaded by his hon. friend, namely, should the
government endeavour to obtain ponsession of the 17 acres
of land? His hoe. friend had by lbia silence admitted that
three acres were necessary for the natural history collection.
For a patent museum they must have five acres—that at
Washington covered eleven ; and so here were eight acres
absolutely required, to say cothiog of the national portrait
a?, and other collections that might hereafter to
He hoped that bon. gentlemen would give their
Totem on this occasion with a due sense of the reeponsibi-
lity which rested upon them ; for there was coondeiable
reeponeibility attaching to bon. members in this matter. For
a long time it had been observed, and observed with rare
unanimity, that every possible evil of vacil-
bitioa, uncertainty, delay, end expense had at-
tended the house's method of managing these great
questions of public works. (Cheers and counter cheers.)
But did hon. members really think that that system would
be mended by statements coached in highly coloured, if not
in exaggerated tones, by unmeasured denunciations of men
of great authority, who had carefully examined this ques-
tion oc behalf of the government ; and by ruthless assaults
upon the performances of ambit/ta, and by a total misap-
prehension of the technical merits of a case of this difficulty
The House of Commons might reject the vote if
it thought fit They had a perfect right, and
they would be acting within their province, to do so,
but the advisers of the crown had considered carefully,
and had °pandered long, what was the beet scheme they
could suggest, to meet the urgent wants of the country.
They not only believed thatthe plan proposed by his noble
friend would be by far the cheapest mode, Dot they were
not aware what other plan they could adopt ; and they were
at any rate not prepared to propose the extravagant and
outrageous one in which his hors. friend—in the name of
economy—wished them to embark. (Cheer.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON (who spoke amidst such loud ex-
pressions of impatience that the purport of his observations
scarcely reached the gallery) was understood to oomplsin
that the government had treated this as a purchase of land,
but the vote spoke of land and buildings. It should be
clearly understood what these buildings were. He thought
the government would have failed in their duty if they had
not made an attempt to purchase the land.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
building in question belonged to the commissioners, and not
to the contractors. They were the refreshment rooms
facing the Horticultural Gardens. Putting them entirely
out of the question, the price of the land would be about
7,0001. an acre.
Mr. ATItTON pointed oat that the buying of the land
was not to be a purchase pure and simple, but one foe the
of sciesos and art. (Hear.)
Pu'IATZHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Undoubt-
edly it was not proposed that the government should buy
the laud to sell won at a profit ; but they would buy it to
be disposed of at the platoons of the house for any purpose
connected with science and art. (Hear.)
Lord ELCHO was understood to defend the vote on the
ground that the land was necessary to remedy the chronic
congestion of all one national collections ; but the noble
lord being prevented by the impatience of the house from
proceeding. moved that the chairman report program. (Oh.)
Lord PALMERSTON rose amidst great confusion and
arias of "Divide." He aid-Sir, I think we had better
make program before you report it. I think the house has
made its mind op —moor, Dem)— and I hope they will not
agree to the motion of the noble lord. If instead of decid-
ing the question upon this occasion the home should wish
to have further time to consider it, the house can of course
=its consideration, but I hope they will come to a
upon it now. (Cheers and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. OSBORNE was much struck with the WWI of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, not following
the example of the noble lord, had completely given the
go-by to Captain Fowke's enormities. But let the house
remember the unsatisfactory nature of the plans and esti-
metre that bad bren submitted to them. A great scheme
WY brought forward in a solemn manner. When the
Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of the misapplication of
the estimates, let the house remember that the estimate
for this very building was set down at 740,0001., and that
it was not finished for over 3,000,0001. (Cheers.) Let that for
ever be a warning to the house not to enter into improvident
estimates for schemes for which they were manifestly unfit.
The question that theCtairman should report program was
then put and negatived.
The committee then divided on the motion, when there
appeared :
For the resolution
Against 135-132
The vote was consequently carried amidst cheering.
Lord PALMERSTON then said—Sir, when I had the
honour to move the first resolution, I did not wish to proms
tl'e house to come to a division to-sight upon the vote, and,
therefore, if the committee wish it, we will postpone the
further resolutions till Thursday week. (Cries of "Go on"
from the ministerial benches.)
Mr. MALINS maid he apprehended the house was quite
unprepared for the course proposed by the noble lord. If
the noble lord did not like the temper of the committee,
possibly he did well in not going on with the revolutions
but he was quite sure the committee would be aware that
the postponement of the resolutions was agreed to for the
accommodation of the government only, and not of the com-
mittee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said that, as a member of the committee,
be most emphatically protested against what had fallen
from the boo. and learned gentleman. It was a perfectly
understood thing that these votes should be postponed.
The CHAIRMAN then proceeded immediately to the
next vote, aid amidst much laughter proposed a vote of
8061. for the salary of the Secretary to the Commiamioners
of National Education for Ireland. Hon. members rose in
great numbers to leave the house, and the vote was agreed
to in the midst of a noise and confusion which rendered in-
audible the voice of anyone attempting to address the com-
mittee.
After some seconds,
Mr. A. SMITH asked why the British Museum vote had
been passed °ear.
Mr. WALPOLE maid it had been postponed at the request
of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets and others till
after the discussion on the Exhibition building on Thursday
next.

A variety of votes were then agreed to.
1.5001. Theological Prof enure at Sanest.
Mr. HADFIELD objected to that portion of the vote
which went to give retiring allowances to the protestors. He
moved that the vote be reduced to the amount of 4601.
The committee divided:
For the vote
For the amendment 25-70
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that the resolutions be reported to the
boo
Mn, r. CONINOHAM objected to the report being received
ao early, observing that be had been waiting there for a long
time to take
foe the
the diaouaaion on the next vote—
namely, that the National Gallery.
As Hon. kftwese—Give notice.
Mr. CONLNGHAM gave notice that when the vote for
the National Gallery wu proposed he should move that it
be reduced by 1,400/., the item for incidental and travelling
az
and . r;HlTEagency observed that several boa. members seemed
smokier that the committee should proced with the votes.
The CIIILEBILUI having again put the quotient that he
and
Mrigral'itan having again objected,
The committee divided ;
For reporting mewed
Assiut it
The house then resumed.
MANAGERS OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN ENGLAND.
Os the brioginc up of the report oa supply, the item
of 804,002/. for public duration Ia Great Britain was read
from the table, and the vote agreed to.
lUpoa the vote of 82,0001. for the department of oakum
aad art,
Mr. A. SMITH complained of the gradual itlOß4llllof this
vote. ead moved thst it be reduced by 10,0001., part of
which sum was required for reeideseesat South Essioagton.
In reply to Mr. C. liturrnics,
Mr. LOWE said that there reshbaces were necessary for
°Mows who slept on thsprawbee airtight.
The beau divided, when the numbers were :
For the reduction
Against it

108
20-88