The Express.
London, England, 1863-02-24 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 4, 1863.

land part of the guests, and returned with them to London.
No politics weft ihiroduced, and that was the only mat-
&ion on which I visited Chatham. I appeal to the house
whether under those circumstances I deserve the onsure
which the noble lord has thought fit to cast upon me.
I(Cheers from the ministerial benches.)
Lord R. MONTAGU—The noble lord has certainly
defended himself without any rancour, but if he will permit
me to say so, with considerable rashness. I think, however,
atlpiapteabrede hweiasumleftyotout
lemat any
...pointsresti w.rhniewhh.l atlllu . He
did
or
did
not event, sod what I might have said or might not have
I said concerning himself. It appears to me that that is not
at all a question that ought to be brought before the house.
The only question of interest to this house is whether the
noble lord did or did not act in • legal and constitutional
manner. What does it matter to him or to the country whose
business we are here to transact, whether I said certain
things of him or of the lord-lieutenant of the county ? (Oh.)
The country will not care one farthing what has been mid
by a member who has not been three years in the borne,
who never held any office, and is of no account either m the
country or the house. The whole question is whether, as a 1
member of this house, the noble lord did or did not act in
a legal and constitutional manner, and that is the question
to which he should have directed his attention. I appeal to
I my hon. and gallant friend the member forChatham whether ,1
what I say is or is not the case, and he will correct me if I
am wrong. But the colds lord has trotted very lightly over
my assertions, like Is man walking over sharp flints with
bare feet. as if he did not care to bear upon them for fear
of committing himself one way or the other. (Oh, oh.)
With regard to Lord Sidney, what I said was
this—and I carefully guarded myself—that appli-
cation had been made to him by Mr. Budder,
who became afterwards high constable of Chatham,
for • captaincy of volunteers, and that Lord Sidney had, I
understood, refused the application, on the ground that
Mr. Boddie was a canteen-keeper. It has been said that I
used the word " costarmonger," and as the reports are
usually very accurate, I suppose that I did so. All I can
say is, that it was a mistake—a mere laps= Hogue. (" Oh,
oh" and laughter.) However, that did not apply to Lord
Sidney. He refused the captaincy, the dinner was
given to the noble lord, and after that Mr. Budder received
his captaincy. (Hear, hear.) I merely state the facts.
(Hear, hear.) I never for one moment said that those facts
are *inserted together. (Oh, oh.) Here are the words as
reported, " The lord-lieutenant he was informed refused,
observini that the person in question was a mere meter-
monger.
The SPEAKER—The noble lords not in order in read-
ing from • newspaper extracts from the report of a speech in
this house. lam very sorry to interfere in • matter which
appears to be of a personal nature between two hon. gentle-
men, and requiring personal explanation. But the noble
lord having to oiler matter of explanation with regard to a
single point in reference to himself, that does not afford
an opportunity to the noble lord to address the house
further upon the subject.
Lord ROBERT MONTAGU—I will put myself in
order by concluding with a motion for the adjournment of
the house. The noble lord may attack me in this
house, and I do not care about it. But what I
do care about, and what the noble lord does not appear to
care about, is whether be has acted legal and 000stitu-
tiredly ; that is the point upon which I wish the house now
to judge between as. The noble lord 00111200 ill the two facts,
the dinner and the appointment, and thinks it necessary
therefore to coine down to the house to contradict what I
said. Unless he thought there was a connection between
the dinner at Chatham and Lord Sidney giving Mr. Budden
the office he desired, why should he have come down to the
home to raise this tempest in a tumbler? But it is clear
that he was conscious of some influence. I do not say the
noble lord himself applied to the lord-lieutenant,
hut he was naturally interested for his brother-
in-law. I never said that Mr. Bidden was not a
respectable individuaL lam quite aware that he is so; but
he has this disadvantage, that he was a moat etreneoes sup-
porter of the conservative member for Chatham. And when
one sees these civilities done to him by another party one
may suppose that there was some object in detaching him
from this party he has nerved oolong. (Oh, oh.) The noble
lord has said that I asserted that on several meadow he
went to Chatham on political matters. I did not understand
that he took his inspiration from any newspaper, and I saw
two newspapers, in neither of which were the words be put
into my mouth. I merely said that he went down to the
dinner, and what I stated with regard to the special train
was that the noble lord did go by • special
train, and I wondered how it was paid for. I
did not say it wu charged to the public accent. I asked
whether it was taken out of the civil contingencies, but
that was only said as a joke, and with no intention to im-
pute to the noble lord that he would defraud the govern-
ment in any way whatever. But the noble lord has passed
over the gravest part of the charge, that be went to
Chatham, and promised the electors of Chatham that it
should be made the largest arsenal in the world. (Lord C.
PAGNT : " No. no,") Well, he said Chatham was about to
become one of the most important of our naval stations;
that it was sleuth:roman the lorgeet arsenal that Europe—
' nay, that all the world together would power; ad that the
basin accommodation at Chatham would surpass the boasted
basin accommodation of all France together. I pot
it to the house whether that was not mak-
ing a premier' to Chatham involving a large
expeedithre of money. Would our forefathers have al-
lowed even a king or queen to promise a large expenditure
of public money on any dockyards? Yet the noble lord
goes down and makes this procaine to Chatham. (Hear,
hear.) Of course he was received with cheers, and of course
warmly welcomed when be made such a promise of the
expenditure of public money to the town. He said our
navy was Dever in a better condition for entering into war
or (or fighting the French. The hon. member for Roch-
dale is not here, or he would, I have no doubt, take up the
cudgels upon that point What right has the noble lord to
go down to Chatham and say things that are in-
sulting to the French nation? (Hear, hear.) It
may be said that this was only a little indis-
cretion. But if so, it is only another instance
of what we heard so much of lan year, and which was
known as "ministerial mwilarking." I" Heir, /maxi and
laughter.) This house is most jealous that • minister should
not use his patrousge to turn the votes of electors, and yet
I appeal to the home whether those words of the &obis lord
were not calculated to bring over the electors of Chatham
to bis side. It may be said that a general election was not
imminent, but I ask whether every hon. member of this
house did not entertain the opinion that • general election
was a very probable event at an early part of the present
session? (Hear, hear.) And it was just previous to that
that the noble lord went down to Chatham sad made this
promise to the electors. I will not detain the house any
further. The noble lord has not defended himself upon the
only point upon which he was open to sneak—namely, that
he acted unconstitutionally and ffiesta/ly ; sod I think it is
the duty of some of his colleagues to defend him, if he an
be defended upon that pelat. I move the adjournment of
the house.

--laid C. PAGET seconded the moth*.
Sir P. SMITH hoped that as he bad been alluded to he
might be permitted to offer souse observations upon the
subject before the house. la the fiat plane with regard to
the appointment of Mr. Buddea as captain of volunteers, he
believed Mr. Sudden was one of the most respectable men
in the county of Kent ; be was a most charitable man, and
he had contributed very largely to the volunteer movement.
One company in fact almost owed its existence to him; and
so popular was he among the oorpe that he was recommended
to the appointment of captain. Bat the noble lord the
Secretary to the Admiralty was wroog when be supposed
that when Lord Sydney made the appointment, Mr. Sudden
was in the position of high constable. Mr. !hidden had
been two consecutive year, high constable of Chatham,
and when he occupied that position his name was brought
forward for the captaincy, but lard Sydney refused to make
the appointment. When, however, Mr. Bodkin was
going out of office he, as usual, gave a dinner to the court
leek and a fortnight or so afterwards the lord-lieutenant
appointed him the captain of the company, when be was no
longer high constable. It was for people to draw their own
inferences why he was appointed. (Cheers.) It was the
practice at the high constable's retiring dinner to invite
those who were of his own party, and he confessed it was
with surprise that he heard a few hours before the dialer
that the Secretary to the Admiralty would be present. He
our p to meet his noble friend almost anywhere, and
rly the company of his late opponent, sod pro.
rbiThrs future opponent—("hear, hear," and a laugh)—
but be was quite sure that if the invitation came again the
noble lord would sot accept it. He was quite sure that
on the last occasion it had been accepted by the noble lord is
hie usual off-hand, good-natured way, without reflection
, upon the consequences. (Hear.) But the consequences were
that there was hardly • man at that meeting who was an
elector of Chatham who did not believe that it was a
political move. (Hear, bear.) The noble lord came down
with his brother-ie-law by his side, and as the Secretary to
the Admiralty he would have the dockyard patronage.
But, however, that did not appear to bier to be of much
importance because he believed the constituency of Chatham
to be so pure that it would resist all entreaties even
coming from the honied lips of his noble friend. (Laughter.)
The house laughed at the ides of the parity of the electors ;
but be had sat for Chatham three times and his brother
once, and he could not lay his finger upon the name of a
Jingle voter on the list who had changed from the one side
to the other. He waled the noble lord had not gone down
to Chatham on the recent occasion, though it was a very
good dinner. (Laughter.) He thought his opponent would
have appeared with better gram to fight fairly at the host-
imp, sod that it would have been as well, instead of the
course he did take, bad he in returning thanks for the
House of Commons, said that the electors were very lucky
is having such a more as be (Sir F. Smith) to represent
them—for he might with very great justice have said so.
(laughter, and "hear, hear.") He thanked the house for
haring heard him, and had only to express hie hope that
the noble lord would not go down to Chatham again.
(Laughter.)
The motion for the adjournment of the house was then
put and negatived.
CORRESPONDENCE WITH AMERICA.

Mr. S. FITZGERALD gave notice that on Thursday
nest he should move for papers in condonation of the
papers of last wasion, in reference to the dance
between her Majesty's government and the UM States,
and also the oorrespoodenee with ordain persons here re•
presenting the Southern States.

THE RECENT PROCEEDINGS DT BRAZIL.
Mr. LA IRD *shed the Roder floseAry of Ithato for Fo•
reign Affairs whether bee MaJeety's goverentent wane in
posteseien of the data apes whisk Mr. (ley* in hi, de.
spangle to Earl Resell of die IS Nosnibir, ISOR founded

hit statement that it was "known to the Brazilian govern-
ment, as well as to his lordship," that Mr. Consul Veselmr.
when be left Rio Grande dd Sul, " was in a state of nervous
excitement, with a delusion- about attempts to assassinate
him," and upon which the Marquis of Absentee, in his note
to Mr. Christie of the 20th October, was led to question Mr.
Vereker'e " infallibility respecting the diseovery of crimes?'
and, if so, whether there was any objection tie lay the dose-
moots ocotaimeg such data upon the tobh, of the hones, is
continuation of the correspondence relating to Brazil just
presented to parliament by her Majesty's COMIZADI
Mr. L4YABD replied that be sae not able to give any
of the docnthents asked for. The illness of Mr. Veteker
was a subject of notoriety. Be was a very zealous public
correct, and had made great exertions to obtain redress in
the case of the Prince of Wales, in the coulee of which he
had to encounter every species of misconduct on the part of
the Brazilian authorities, and he left Brazil last year in •
state of great nervous excitement His health, however,
was now restored, and he would return as consul to Rio
Grande.

; the omission he notices in that treaty does not in-
valve any neglect of that which we all know
1 to be the fundamental principle of the dritish constitutiou,
that the sovereign and royal family aboold be of the pro-
testant religion. The treaty of marriage of the Prince of
Wales was founded precisely on the treaty of marriage of
the Prince of Wales who afterwards became George IV.
There was no mentiee in that treaty of the article to which
the hon. member alludes, and it was not thought necessary
to insert it in the present treaty. It was in the marriage
treaty of the Queen, but my hon. friend will see a leading
grivanto.:tlde
ho.f. dttsitainction..ii It is well
degree d knieowb
controlat
over
the education of the children, and where the husband is •
, foreigner it may be right to have a special article with ni-
-1
prd to their education ; but where the husband is Prince of
Wales it ie not necessary to insert that condition. My hon.
1 friend may be perfectly assured that there is not the
slightest chance of the children of thin marrs end I hope
they may be many—being educated in any other way than
conformable to the laws of the country and in the pro.
testant religion. With regard to the
rat by the
question
hop. member opposite, I have to inform him that the pin-
comes of all the royal family are subject to the income tax.
There is no exception to that.
The bill was then read a second time.
LAW OF LUNACY.
Upon the motion for going into so pa,
Mr. BUTT asked the Secretary of- te for the Home
Department whether his attention had been called to the
recent case of Hall sad Semple in the Court of Quese's
Beath, and whether it was his intention to propose any
alteration in the law relating to certificates required in came
of alleged insanity.
Sir G. GREY said he bad communicated with the Com-
missioners in Lunacy on the subject, and asked them whe-
ther is their opinion the ease of Hall sad Semple showed
any necessity for a change in the law. Their reply, in which
by entirely concurred, was, that it did not. In that case
there bad not been an observance but s violation of the law ;
aid if the proprietor of the licensed asylum ten done his
ditty the case would not have weaned. The commiasioares
badman:red the keeper of the asylum for culpable neglect,
and addressed • circular to the proprietors of all the other
asylums, calling their attention specially to the require-
ments of the act of parliament. He hoped that the verdict
in the case, assemble it stood, and the measures taken by
the commissioners would effectually prevent • recurrence
of such cams.
DEPORTATION OF NEGRO REGIMENTS FROM
EGYPT TO MEXICO.
Mr. BUXTON called the attention of her Majesty's se'
imminent to the purchase and deportation from Egypt of iii.
negro regiment by the Emperor of the French.
The hoc. member said the Emperor of the French applied
last year to the Peels of Egypt to band over to him one
or more- battalions of negro soldiers—he believed about
I,soo—but that only • portion of them had yet left Egypt.
He added that it was intended to carry these pogrom to a
most unhealth part of Mexico, to perform duties which
the French soldiers scald not discharge without certain
destruction to themselves, and characterised the proceed-
ing an an exceedingly base and cruel transaction, and little
less than the slave trade, which the Emperor of the French
had declared in one of his speeches France would no longer
encourage.
Lord PALMERSTON—My bon. friend has adverted to
• transaction which certainly was very irregular and very
unfortunate, sod the execution of which in some details was
liable to greater amours than my hoe. friend has applied to
it. The facts of the case were these :—The French govern-
ment, finding that the climate of Mexico and the exposure
of the French troops to that climate occasioned exertions
which was attended by great sickness, thought that by
enlisting • certain number of Africans they might get persons
more able from their constitutions to undergo the fatigue
of service in Mexico, and they sent an officer to Egypt to
endeavour to enlist 1,000 Africans for service in Mexico.
The late Puha of Egypt was a very easy-tempered man, and
very much disposed to go beyond the demands made upon
him ; and there is also still, I am sorry to say, a system of
administration in Egypt tainted in many respects with the
barbarous wages of times gone by, while at the same time
there is • practice of compelling forced labour and wising
people, whether they would or no, for the purpose' of em-
ployment. Well, the Pasha of Egjpt, without a moment's de-
lay, ordered • regiment of 450 Nubians to be marched down to
Alexandria and marched on board • French frigate, with-
out knowing why or where they were going. That was
sufficiently irregular, because Egyptian troops were troops
belonging to the Saltan. He was the sovereign of Egypt,
and the inhabitants of Egypt were his subjects ; and it
was not competent for t vassal of • sovereign to dispose
of any portion of his military force without the authority
of the sovereign himself. The Pasha bad Bo right whatever
to send a regiment of Nubians to serve under a foreign sove-
reign without the express esoction and consent of his own
sovereign. That was, therefore, perfectly irregular. That
was perhaps not the intention of the French government,
because the instruction was that an endeavour should be
made to enlist freely • certain number of Africans for a
particular service, of which they were to be informed, and
only according to their will. But not content wish
that, the Egyptian government committed an act which
was exactly similar in violence and cruelty to
that which has lately been committed in Warsaw.
They sent people into the street,' and quays of she tewn to
seise every man, whatever hie employment, for military
duty or hard labour. They tore him away from his family,
friends, and home, and immediately put him on a tender,
which conveyed him on board a French frigate booed for
Mexico. [Here an HON. MEMBER made an observation.]
lam not speaking of whites ; but negroes base families as
well as whites, and have great attachment to their families
and homes. I cannot help believing that the French
government, which has expremed so strong • condemnation
of the cruel operations which are being performed in War-
saw and other places in Poland—wiring people to serve in
the Russian army—will, when they Bud an act of the
same cruelty, or perhaps even worse, has been committed
in Egypt, feel disposed, and have the power to repair it.
The got arnment had expressed their opinion to the French
government that the arrangement was quite irregular, that
it was a violation of the rights of the Sultan, and that the
Paths of Enypt was not entitled to disposeof the subjects of
the Sultan without the Sultan's consent.
THE CASE OF THE sur

IENTS OF DOCK-

YARD POLICE.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE moved that the house will to-
morrow resolve itself into committee to consider of an
bumble address to be presented to her Majesty, praying that
the three superintendents of dockyard police who were
superannuated on the abolition of their offices be
restored to the scale of pension which was
originally awarded them. He said these officers
had served in the dockyard 26 years, and before they were
placed in that positionthey had 'tweed in the navy, one having
entered the navy in 1808, and another in 1805. These dock-
yard appointments were to all intents and purposes life
appointments, and when these gentlemen were deprived of
them, which they were in consequence of some new organi-
sation, they were entitled to the most favourable considera-
tion of the government, and the government of the day
accordingly gave them each a pension of 1741. In addition
to that they were each entitled to their half-pay
as naval officers, amounting to 1271. 15a., making
a Meld 3011. 16e. This they enjoyed from October, 1860,
to Juns,lB6l, when they were soddenly reduced to one half.
He believed that the Admiralty were convinced of the justice
of the claims of these officers, and bad applied to the Tree-
miry to grant them, bat the Treasury refined.
Mr. LINDSAY said he believed these officers had served
their country faithfully, sad their daiwa ought to be favour-
ably considered. But what be wished to call the attention
of the house to was that the charge for the conveyance of
troops was 100,0001. more than last year.
The SPEAKER observed that it was not competent for
the home to discuss individual votes.
Sir F. FRITH seconded the motion.
Mr. F. PEEL said be thought be should be able to satisfy
the house that the course taken by the Treasury in this
matter was strictly conformable to the act of parlia-
ment relating to superannuatioos. The appointments held by
these officers were abolished in consequence of an act of
parliament which tranderred the duty of the dockyard po-
lice to the metropolitan police. The claims of
_persons en-
titled to superannuation were submitted to the Treasury on
printed forms, and amongst the questions asked wee one
whether the officer who claimed the pension had received
compensation in half-pay or any other allowance of public
money at the time. He had referred to the forms filled up
by these officers, and found that the answer in each case
was that they were not receiving anything in the shape of
half-pay. They were entitled to a pension of one-sixtieth
of their salary for every year they were in the service. They
were in service 26 years, and ten years were added as
compensation for the abolition of their offices, thus making
the pension 36.60ths of their salary. The salary was 2801.
a year, to which was added 401., the estimated value of a
house. That was in December, 1860. About five months
afterwards a Captain Jay, who bad been superintendent of
telegraphs, and who had received a pension in 1848, wrote
to the Admiralty, and his letter was forwarded to the Trea-
sury, asking for a reconsideration of his we, on the ground
that the Treasury had allowed those three officers to re-
ceive a pension for their civil service irrespective of the
halt-pay. That statement took the Treasury en-
tirely by surprise, because they had been under
the impression that these officers were not en-
titled to ball-piv. They asmetaieed on inquiry
at the Admiralty that these eaten were in the receipt
of half-pay. They did not receive it at the time they made
their claim, but when their office wee abolished, their claim
to half-pay revived. The anpersanaticm set distinctly pro-
vided that no officer receiving half-pay should receive •
pension in respect of his civil service exceeding, combined
with his half-pay, two-thirds of the salary of his office, and
the pensions of these officers were accordingly reduced to
that amount. If the proposal of the hon. and gallant
gentleman were agreed to, these officers would be receivin
more so peplos this they were entitled to when in full
employment.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE asked the Secretary to the Admi-
ralty whether the Admiralty had not pressed on the Tres.
aury to allow this claim ?
Lord C. PAOET made no reply.
The house was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and the resolution was negatived.
FLOGGING IN THE NAVY.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS referred to the great increase of
flogging which bad taken plaza in the navy daring the
last year. fle foetid that the number of men
flogged was 1,076, and the number of lashes was 36,463.
Last session a peat deal was said about the impropriety
of allowieg seamen to billboard without seuteoce eta wart
inertial, bathe repelled eiled the rule bad net been

adopted. la the previous year the number of men flogged
was only 764, sad the number of Lakes to which they were
seoteoced wu only 26,000 odd. In 1652 there were only
575 men Bogged, and the number of Lulus wigs 17,500 odd.
lie hoped the attention of the government would be drawn
to the increase that bad taken phloem this degrading punish-
ment.