The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

THE MALLAOHEA EXPEDITION.

Mr. BRIGHT alter referring to some of the leading feet.
connected with this expedition, the particulars of which
appestad in the Daily News of Thursday last, said that he
understood this expedition, in which between 70 and 80
men were killed and wounded os. our side and 400 of those
who wire called the enemy were killed, bad reference be
believed t t the violation of a treaty by an African chief,
which treaty was not in force, as it had Lot yet received the
sanction of parliament. There was at present a bill before
parliament fir that purpose (Hear, hear.) It might, there-
fore, tom out that this transecttoo bssidea being gr es and
mons•rous In clierseter, was illegal in its nature. (Hear.)
lie wished to know from the noble lord at tic beau of the
government whether he had received sry details of this me-
finch dy affair, end if so, whetner he would by them on the
to►le and order an impress inquiry into the partiealass of the
transaction.

Sir C. WOOD said be had seen the acettact referred to by
the hon. gentleman bat as no despatch bad been eiceivod at
the Admiralty of as transaction, it would be impoemble to
give it.
Mr. BRIGHP said that the secant was taken from
• newspaper published on the coast of Attics, where the
trensactios ccurred. Was the right hon. gentleman mor-
tals that the dispatch had not come to his, or sense other
department of the government? •
Bir C. WOOD had not that absolute confidence in news-
papers u to believe that whatever was there must he true.
The government bad not received say despatch, and there-
fore it vine impartible that he eould prodsce it. (Hear.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked whether the Slave Trade
Bill, which stood on the paper for a third reading that
night, would be postponed till the government was informed
of this inviter. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. gentleman could
urge his objection to the bill when it was before the house.
The transaction under dissuasion did not seem to him to
have the least bearieg on that ball.
Mr. JAMES MACGREGOR called the attention of the
right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood) to • very irritating re-
gulation of the naval authorities of Deal, by which all
bathing opposite the naval yards was forbidden, and the
seats for promenaders removed. There was no necessity
whatever for the regulation, and he trusted the right hon.
gentleman would have it rescinded.
The motion was then agreed to.
METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT BILL.

The above Bill was read a third time and passed after the
dilettanti of some supplementary amendments.
THE TURKISH LOAN.

The house hieing gone into committee oa the Turkish
loan,
Lord PALMERSTON rose to move the following mole-
ties

"That it le the opinion of this committee that bet Majesty
he anthoti.e4 to guarantee the payment of the interest on
the loan of flee millions starling, to be contracted fee by Lip
Imperial Msjecty the Sultan, in pumesse of the convention
signed at London on the 27th day of June, 1855, between
her Majesty, bin Majesty the Emperor of the Freed., and
his Imp rial 61 .jesty the Suiten, and that proviaiou he made
out of the Consolidated Fund of the Usited Kingdom, or
the growing produce thereof, for the Mee of such sums of
money from time to time, as may be required to pay any
interest which may at any time be required to fulfil the
guarantee of her Majesty in respect of such batons, con- '
formably to the tenor of her Majesty's engagement as sped.
fled in the said convention, together with the attending
eharg s of manag,twot thereon."
Mr. RICARDO said that if be could reeoncle it with his
duty as a member of that house, which duty was to see that
en new hardens were imposed which were not indispen-
sable, he should be prepared to respond to the appeal which
had just been made by the noble lord. But be saw with
regret that we were entering iato the old system of subsidies
—(hear, hear)—whick *heady pressed so heavily upon
the nation, that he believed a great wart of our
saticsal debt was made op of them. From a
!stern which had hoes monad for by Mr. Hume he found
that the amount of subsidies gestated in the twenty years
termination in 1616 was no less than 68 millions sterling.
Recollecriog these feet., he must say that unless he were
shown gams indispeasable reason for mommeneing such a
arum he must vote against the proposition of the noble
lord. (Rear, hear.) A remarkable llialtrattou of the way
to which the opts= acted was found is the fact that out
of the 68 millions no less a sum then 6,813,0001. was Paid to
the Emperor of Russia. (Haar, hear) In feet we bad alto-
gether paid 9} millirem to the wooly with whom we were
now fighting. He did not moan to surer into the
question whether then subsidies Were rightly paid at
the time, but he thought it would be Blear to the
whole of the committee that if them subsidies of
nearly 10 millions bad not been paid to Resale
her reseerces being to that amount diminblied, we ought
not at this moment to have been eugageff it an cereal
struggle with her. In these figures he had not inoteded
the RusetsDutch loan. What he meld urge upon the
committee as the result of the facts whisk he had just
stated was this.--that if this moieties wore agreed to we
should in fact lie paying both those with whom we were siding
and Sam' *galas whom we were costonding. (Hoer,
'hoar.) In the neat plans be would especially all the at-
tention of the committee to the course which it was pro-
Posed to follow with regstd to this has, reminding hoe.
pelisses of the manner in which the Greek loss of 1832
was guaranteed, In that me we took • different counts
to that atingskt proposei ; sod it should moreover be
moolleebettharthat lam was to • king whom We had pat
upon the throne—and, by the way, • very satisfactory
king he bad proved. (' Hear, hoer," and laughter.)
In that case there were three contracting powers—Eag-
let& Frame, sad Rode. Did we take the wee wane se

cow, end put our guarantee upon a par with than of Prange
put Russia ? Certainly not We then guaranteed our owa
proportion of the loan, and were responsible for that per-
iieu only, and although Greece had not for twelve years
paid one shilling w e bad had no quarrel whatever upon the
-ohjeet—either with France or Russia. We had paid mu
proportion 01 the interest, aid there the matter had ended.
But would that be the Call where there was a joint "
emitter ? (Cheers.) Suppose there should be—he hoped'
there would net, but Tenets event' proved that it was not
quite out of celeu'ation—a chanson government altogether
France, and who knew what coarse the future govern-
me. at might take? They might refuse to make good
the liability of preceding governments. It might be
said then, we should have to pay the whole sum.
But that was not WI, we should be involved in
negotiatt.ms and disputes, and experience most have
taught every one that mob' og embittered the
court, of ch.-den:Rey so mach as the introduction of mone-
tary "teatime. (Cheers.) He confessed that he was not
surprised to hear from the noble lord that it was the wish
of France that this joint guarantee should be given be
could easily understand that there was • wish to make use
of Eoglidi credit. Every one knew that the Liabest midis
'gusted the amine, and in ordinary nomereist trannetions
as one troubled themselves &bent the names on the bath of
a bill provided that oar of them only was above reproach.
Bat there was no substantial benefit to France in tbo joint
guarantee. No one could mistake the credit upon which
the loan would stand; the facts were patent to
all men. Every one who looked at a newspaner
became 10"1711 of the fact that English stacks
stood at 91, while thst of France was 66, The noble lord
had said that no berth.. weuli he likely to fall on this
country. He recollected that he matte a similar statement
in 1852. on the omen° of the guersntee of the Greek loan.
(Hear) And another learned member said, iu reply to
Mr. Saline, that the guarantee would not involve En.laud
is any liabilty, se it was distinwly arranged that all the
revenue of Gro ere should be in the first Justine applied :0
the payment of inter, at. Wh et was the fact? Why, that
we had to buy the whole of the sharer., and if we had
had a joint guarantee it was more than probable that the
alienee with Femme net at that moment have been
in existence. (Hear, hear) The noble lord had stated that
the resources of Turkey were amply *ABM• nt to ray the
interest on the loan, as well as to form a sinking fund for its
repayment. Why net, then, leave It to Turkey to
raise this lean herself. She had already bean able to
raise one loan at sic per Pent at 80, and he could
state es a fact that one govern meat wee prepared to
lend her 2,000.0001. at Pd, and he had also been
informed that a French bank was wil!ine to advance a large
sum at 86. Why, then, did not the government leave the
matter to these melividusls, end not involve this country in
• tfaixotie env rprise like the prawn'. (Cheers.) He could
not but think that this was one of the series of extrava-
gances which bed distinguished the conduct of the war, and
be blamed himself for not having at an earlier period pro-
tested against the wasteful expenditure which had neurred.
He could out hot think that if the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer went on in this course he would not find the resources
of this country so ample se ho seemed to imagine. (Hear,
hear) The house had not been properly dealt with in then
matters. Only the other day the noble lord the Minister of
War—a peer—came down to the other house and stated,
quite unexpectedly, that the pay of the army was to be
doubled. The House of Commons Lad never heard a ward
about the matter. (Hear, hear.) He did not de the
right of her Majesty to pay her soldiers what she liked; but
that Louse had to supply the means ; and befote any new
immurement Wee ode, they fright to know something about
it. (Chem.) Only the °the day, in answer to a question,
the Chancellor of the Exch. quer had stated that he load
spent more thin his estimate's, and that he should have to
i ring forward supplemental estimates to answer his require-
ments. When that was to be done no one knew ; no notice
had been given, end the estimates had enly just teen laid e n
the table. Se again with this convention ; the first thing
w.:ich was bend of it was from • report of the French
Legislative Arepenbly, which appeared In a foreign news•
paper. (Hear, hear.) Teem that report it would appear
that the eenvention which was before the French Assembly
upon the 7th July, it was not until the 17th, and then in
answer to repeated questions, that the House of Commons
heard anything of it. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Ricardo)
knew that some inconvenience would arise front the refusal
' of the house to oentirm this convention ; then inennveni.
ems, however, the noble lord had brought upon himself
by the course which be had pursued. Re felt that he was
only doing his duty as • m unlace of that house when he
,stated that he should divide the committee replan the
moque of the noble lord. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said that
the hon. member who had just ewken had grounded his
remonstrances upon the assertion that they were ptomain
a ',Wieldy to Turkey, and he quoted a return obtained by
Mr. Hume of the amount of money paid upon that account.
But in truth what was then under consideration was not a
subsidy but • g lee. Whct was meant by a subsidy
was wt en the country Mead a sum of money, either by loan
or out of the current , sad handed it over to a
foreign coantry for the purpose, of war. Such was the
practice whieh prevailed during the struggle of
this country with Napoleon. Here it was versed
that Turkey should rai'e • loan. should pay the
interest, and provide a sinking fund for repayment of the
Principle. All that England and France could do would
be to guarantee rerayment to then advancing the money.
With regard to the question of a joint R tee, he had
no °Menton to state that if her Majesty's government had
exercised their own discretion, they would have preferred
that the guarantee should have extended to half the loan
only. That, however, was objected to by France, and,
under the eiremnstancee of the amicable relations existing
between the two countries, her Majesty's Roma-
neat considered it their duty to secede to that °Neaten.
The same arguments might hove been used in favour of a
separate guarantee, but an engsgement bad been entered
into with the French government, by which the latter under-
took that in case the two governments should be called on
to make good their guarantee, oue-half would be paid by
Friar.. In that way, although the guarantee was in form,
it was in fact, a separate guarantee. His notate friend also
objected to the convention, on the ground that no necessity
had been shown for it, and that Turkey might have raised
the money out of her own resources. With reference to
teat statement, he bad only tansy that the strongest repre-
sentations had been made to the allied governments as to
the inability of the Turkish government to do so during I
the war. The house should recollect that the war had
entailed greatly increased expenses on that country, and
that hitherto, mach to her credit, she bed not been a bor-
rower, and was almost the ooly nation in Europe that had
not contracted • national debt. But veer recently she raised
her first loan of three millions, at 6 per cent, which was
done at 80. Bat in consequence of several deduction,, she
actually received much less than the nominal amount. Under
these circumstances, she could not have gone into the market
with any hope of Moire the sum necessary for the war, and
had therefore applied to her allies, who, after giving the
matter the fullest consideration, ultimately agreed to the
cenveation which was then before the committee. His hon.
friend said that they should not have entertained the propo-
sition. because parliament bed not had due notice of the in-
tentions of government, end added that on other financist
matter., the house bad not been treated wi-h due respect
by her Majesty's government. (Hear, hear.) Among
other things hie honourable bind alleged that there had
been a want of notice with respect to the supplementary
estimates ; and he understand him Wee to complain that
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not given the
house any time to prepare for the consideration of those
mei:nate'. With rasp-ct to that he bad only to lay that,
having been asked by a right hon, baronet opposite kis
intention respecting those estimates, he bad answered
merely that it wool# be seemlier to propose addi-
tinsel estimates for the navy and army; and when they had
been agreed to by the house, it would have have been his
duty in a nominee of ways and means to submit the plan
by which he proposed to provide for them. He was at a
lose to know how, in giving that answer, he had been want-
ing in his duty to the house. (Hear, heir.) It wee Mat the
steal practice to give notice of supplementary estimates; for
when they were intruduecd they spoke for themselves, and
there was always sufficient time given for their discussion.
H a hon. friend further said that before her Majesty
intend into thin convection with France, that hones
should have been consulted, and its pleasure
token on the subject. To that his answer was
that such was not that practice with respect to treaties en-
tered into with independent nation. It was the prerogative
of the crown to treat with fonds' powers, audit the treaties
FO agreed to required the senequent approbation of parlia-
ment, they were communicated with • recommendation
from the Crown for their consideration. That being doe*,
it wascompetent to the house to either grant or refuse its
assent ; but, he believed that no example could be found of
minister coming down to the house, in the first instance,
and taking the pleasure of the house respecting engage-
ments about to he entered into with foreign powers. He be-
lieved he bad now gene through the principal points which
his hon. friend bad brought under the notice of the com-
mittee ;.and although it wee no doubt incenneient that any
prospective burdens should be laid on the resources of this ,
country, still he could not but think that the committee
would, under all the eircumetaages, say that government
had no alternative hello propose this arrangement for the
successful prosecution of the war.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that amongst the many excellent
qualities permed by his right hen. friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, none could be more remarkable than the
comfort and cntoposure with which be discharged the duties
of his °Zee. (A laugh) No one could have gathered from
his right heau friend's speech, that he had just prieetted
for their sonsideratiou one of the most Miens and formid-
able questions for the people of this country that bad ever
been submitted to parliament. (Hear, hear.) If ever
then was a question that excited a deep and gooiest feeling
of distrust, alarm, and aversion, it was • proposal at the!
wwwwassusat of a war like that whisk hod Just ben lead

tw the table. Lit him endeavour to clear the ground in the
fife instance. They were nut discussing the question Os
Deem lot or a warlike policy, nor did he look at it ass mow
bar of either a peace or a war party. He should diens«
tee (pea non as it the difference between foot ships sad
eight, between limitation and counterpoise, was
net to ,oust all the effusion of blood and all the
shouldqss
ab be
of carried
pea sss %Ins there was to 1.• swat,
.hin thite
waste of treasure which it was likely to CM. If
Meson energy;the
with
dis-
cussed, they milk t gravely differ, but he would not adopt
right hon. friend proceeded. It
any indirect wows of furthering tio objects of which he
approved. (Hear) Therte:coarneshideerdi:
heetohterobyjoeuet
should
ohothulde
Pwrasiucaiplelegiutrmsatewqhuietielis*
optuor toa
atw
acuslmosexotpeh.abutuetteht
the inanteeltue*.bet
give Turkey direct aid be idea
the
she
ies.
lygmgweroau
sea
rsTra:
6t ;re
anyhhbmeeieahti
zihrs
mismanagedeo
nvi
aids te gtedbuertduni
her
egdne
rdet seihadnot
subject. that
ees hp
er principle, p
founde , he
be
tthoughtTurkey had
say had arises, and ho must a. °fere he thought their Proof*
t
vimoioutkittle higher than we our-
nary war. Not more
than the great empire of Austria, not •
.the solvent kingdom
of Birdied*, and certainty not notes A 'an Can.!" had Paid
whose credit was as steady as oar o cep- therefore he
thought the case of necessity had not been made out,
all Lough be was free to admit that (omen 'ear might be is
possession of circumstances which it would h e ineun,_ eon loot
o
to disclose, and he was prepared to purh eo,priurirle
cocfidenee as far as ficasilee in such a matter. . But Daniell
pvonsfarsossmthhasttpsorts ionnsotss
fithethqsutesstiiosnritsohos hm
neoffAieaid urged'rter
that im
tsswar g
the lsoasnserosfuttheeenevits rightutioitary
friend weierneaumbeild bdtie: t there
tmhbl
it
was a great objection to subsidising the Turks, but L • was
nut quite sure that goy, rnment had not d too that alien iy in
an underhand way. It appeared that for Turkish purr, nee
we had been obliged to seek for coals within the Lake is
d jpoinions, and having obtained them, we paid to the Turk-
iefi government a royalty of 10s. the ten, a sum more than
could be obtained by the coal owners in Northumberland or
Staffordshire. (Hese, hear.) Surely if payments of this
kind were to be made, the thing should be done in an ova
manner. The aoble lend at the bead of the government
bad amend them that they would never be called on to pay
this guarantee ; but if he referred to his owe speedier in
1832 he would find that similar promises had been made,
and th.,e subsequently they were all falciiied. Or let the
noble lord turn back to the debates of 1793, sod be
would find Mr. Pitt assuring the house with perfect good
faith that be had secured the country against one farthing
rise on account of the lose to Austria, and yet of that loan
not one farthing of the int had since been paid ; and,
finally, when the principal came to be settled, Austria paid
2s. G.I. sad England 17e. 6d. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Pitt soon found that guarantees were subsidies.
and soenethieg mo e, and therefore did not trouble
the house with the pretest, but on the next occasion came
down for the held money. If Turkey wonted aid, and it
was !lett that we should give it to her, let her adventure a
loao, and let England subscribe to it ; but don't let as en-
tangle ourselves in this engagement, of which everytinde
could see the beginnit g, but no cue could see the a ad. But
if there were to be a euarantee, let it be not &joint but •
separate one, one which would not lead us into political
difficulties of tee most serious kind. The noble lord said, it
was true, that half the interest was to be sent front France,
but he should like to see it on the face of the treaty, and he
trusted that before treating with the convention the home
would see the correction made. What were the arrange-
ments ? Everything was to be done in England,
everything was to be transmitted from England,
everything made payable in England, and the creditors of
the Sultan would knock at the doors of the Beek of Erglaod
for their dividends. The Sultan, it was true, engaged to remit
them; but suppose he forgot—(a laugh)—soppese the re-
mittance miscarried ; or reprise that after peace was mode •
the ingenious Russians represented to the Su:ten how un-
' fortunate had been the incurring of this debt to his English
oppressors. Under any of these contingencies, the holder
of the stock would not be sent away from the Bank of
England unpaid. It was verged that one half would be paid
by the French, but still on Enlace' would fall the first
responsibility, and be was retry he was obliged to add he
believed the last also. (Hear) Again, it wee said that the
or. 'lit of France was wort than that of this country, hut in
1832 the credit of France wee no better than now, and that of
Russia was worse, ant yet that treaty was so framed that
each nation was liable for wily her own share of the lose,
and no question was rated which could at all excite any
angry national feeling. The King of Greece in the first
instance proposed to raise the money, he raised it homo-
geneously, and the three powers Pave each a separate irulie
rantee for a third of the amount raised. But the per emery
responsibility was of far lest. impoi tepee than the political
difficulty that might accrue from this joint guarantee. Rep-
pose the war over, and the two governments of England Ind
France differed as to Turkey's capability of paying, might
not difficult complications arise out of the question ? (Hear,
hear.) Stipp: se one cf these two countries obtained an
equivalent from Turkey end the other did not, what heart-
buntings might there net arise. Suppose that Turkey should
not pay, ho thought it extremely doubtful that unite! the '
instrument we could 'lineal° Turkey. (.1 laugh.)
They had already hod this year the Sardinian
loan, but under widely different circumstances. The go-
vernment of that country had with proper spirit declined a
subsidy, and from the excellent state of bar finances there
was little doubt but that it would prove a reel and not a
delusive security. The only advantage Sardinia had cis-
lathed was in dealing with the government of England,
instead of in the open market. What he objected to in this
ease was the non-separation of the guarantee, and the poli-
tical damn that might arise from that arrsogement. He
should say also that security ought to he taken for the right
application of the money, as every one knew that in Turkey
all the local officials were corrupt. (Hear, hear.) His
noble friecd promised them that there should be no
difficulty on that score, but he should like some-
thing more solid than anticipations which might
not move more true then those of former times.
The French government had already felt the defectiveness
of the instrument in this respect. The Menileur paid the
right application of the loan was secured by the preamble to
the treaty. This was a mistake, for the words were of the
most general kind, and merely sprite of carrying on the war
with vijetur. He was aware that that house could not take
any part in the forming of a treaty like this ; it rested with
I the prerogative rod the crown and the advisers of the crown
to do this. But no one would tell him that the responsi-
bility of that house for the burials of the people was to
be set at nought by the exercise of the prerogative. (Hear
hear.) He for one would sever cement to abandon that
responsibility. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had never denied that the sanction of the house
was necessary to give effect to any treaty which invol red the
expenditure of money. The right hon. gentleman had re-
presented him as saying that the frown could contract en-
gagements
independently of that house. What the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer said was, that the bones had not
been consulted in the first instance; but he had stated,
most constitutionally, that the course prescribed by prece-
dent and by the constitution was that the crown should
judge as to the engagements it entered into, but that if
those engagements required the sanction of the hospe, as
et connected with money must require it, they should be
distinctly made contingent upon the subsequent approval of
the house. But it was not for the crown to come down and
ask that house what engagements it should enter into with
foreign pewee—that was a question to be determined
by the responsible advisee of the crown ; and the crown,
acting on that advice, made the engagements contingent on
their adoption by that house. With regard to the question
itself, he would begin with the foundation. Did anybody
really doubt that the Turkish government was in absolute
want ot pecuniary resources, to enable them to eatery on the
war ? (Laughter.) Dol any man who thought that the
war ought to be continued doubt that it would be a great
misfortune and impediment to its success if the Turkish
army were redoetd, by west of means, to on absolute nul-
lity, end rendered incapable of co-operating with the allied
&MIN? (Hear, Lear.) If it was essential to the wens of
the operations in which we were engaged that the Turkish
army should be kept armed, pall, fed, and clothed, and if it
were inthessible that that could be done unless Turkey oh.
Mined additional means beyond those of her ordinary revenue,
the question came hum, how were these additional resources
to be obtained? Was it in the manner pointed out by the right
hon. gentleman, of Turkey going into the market and nego-
tiating on her own credit or was it cdvisable that her allies
should step in and assist her, by giving her the benefit of
their greater credit? (Hear, Leer.) If Turkey went singly
Into the market, she might, on some term* or other, se was
proved two years ago, obtain a loan ; but our object was to
make het as efficient as she could be made for the common
cause. dud if it was demonstrable that she would get this
loan on terms infinitely less burdensome if assisted by
England and France, surely interest pointed out that we
ought to step is and assist her in obtaining the pecuniary
means which the existeney of her service required. Even
Mr. Gladstone did not deny those preliminary positions. He
admitted that if the war was to be carried or, it ought
to be done effectually, and that that could not be does
without money. ("Hear," and laughter) The difference
between him and the government was simply this—he
would go further than the proposition of the government in
the way of imposiog an additional burden on the people of
this country. His segment was that a guarantee was es
inezpediesit *tag; that Turkey ought to be assisted by a
sebaidy. The government, tlunkirg that it was necessary
to assist Turkey, wished to give that assistanoe—first, in the
manner in which it might be most useful to Turkey, and
elms to this eanntry. No doubt the Turkish government I
would have profaned • subsidy; but he did sac think that
that course was necessary. The government thought that
secondly, in the meaner is which it might be least harden-
the aid which Tarkey wanted could be afforded to her by an
engagement whisk they trusted would not be attended with
actual beats to this omintey, bat which, even if it

(Stamped ld. Additional.) [TWOPENCE
wen so, would involve a burden less immediate, leo •
e•nsiderable, lees certain, than that which would tripe
from an immediate subsidy of the same amount
to the Turkish government. It was conceded Olt
Sardinia was unable to send 15.000 men :o the Crimea with-
out assistance; and could it be wondered that Turkey, which
was carrying on war in Europe, in Asia, and is the Crimea,
snould need fire millions whoa Sardinia required ere. In
the case of Sardinia we had to advance tho money in the
shape of a loan. In the present instaneo no echoer, of
money was required on the part of England ; all thst Eng-
land and France were required to do was to give their se-
curity as guarantees in the event of Turkey not cootioning
to pay the interest and sinking fund. Mr. Gladstone ap-
p aced very meth to prefer the arrangement nude with re-
gardright. In the Greek loan each if o three powers outran-
sent lutetium both patio guaranteed jointly and sb-
i mire likely to create icconvenient question,. He
• would Mate what bad happened to the fortes!
I sod the enthral thing was for England to say to Greece—. t
I You are our debtor ;we have been compelled te pay ekee
tylice: eluetrudetarr whattieGut'hg4atr'el:lt:(lei
nor
happenedetu'dwPara:hdp.lol. iereoa?'nt. art
;o.upfa‘ip
oylbeulytit ennhinmetliwtabwbuthaa was
niloigtvipagewidP"o'pleas
o3ighsnitaaci France,rtepttttdeehPhttliitalefohwoda nt.e:
resaisib "e. isollare; moo
meansemngbtPalytta koabe
flr7de°s°ng
Graeae Violated.'i:
et. gle
-rbe
ert
y
wi:ighthicmwaterstiiondalisueludgl
We don't agree with you ; we look
protestt
inf
thee n
oo oat fel
again[
t gabykaO ifunin to that hre
l:up
reaa zyn
proceedingt ema neant nbk
diminishthangd f uiafn
odty hno ppoeonnir et. rroueueor ft h ipGa
mustri r gewtt yoat to pay our respective portions of that ioterest and sicking
e.
fund. You will, therefore, be doing us an irjury, and we
ab-
stain from urging your demand for your portion,
unless you consent else to urge ours." Had it
been a joint and separate guarantee that question
could not have arisen. Therefore, considering the
qu 'Mien merely Sso to the probability of international
dim talties, the present plan was preferable to that
ney col itedni dun that
m pastt hat
of •D odd
o ya itrateagreement,
adopi‘ed in the CC,? of Greece. The rich: boo, gentlemen
thought that (murky ought to be taken for the right
appli-
cation of the m
have been made
part of the treaty. It had been thought better not to do so,
bbyutwtohmichekig these
ink sad French commis,ioners would be
establithed in Turkey, to see to the proper application of
the loan. Objection had been taken to the mode of con-
ducting these operatiocs in England ; but on grounds of
economy it was better than raising the loan partly hare
and partly in France. In the can of a direst loan there
would certainly have been the advantage of kinswing at ones
what we had t pay ; but by the plan proposed 'finery got
the immediate benefit, and no liability might euatually fall
upon the guaranteeing powers. (Weer, hear.).
Sir DE L. EVANS was not surprised at the kind Of
negative retention which the proposition of the government
had met with, yet he should he sorry if the home were to
throw any decided obstacle in the way of affording eminence
to Tutkey in same mode or other. The right hon. gentle-
man seemed to think it would be better to make this advance
to Turkey without retaining any control in oar own finds.
lie entirely differed from the right bon. gentleman in that
respect. Re should never consent to give this mocey into
the hands of such a government as they lint w t hot of Turkey
to be without retaining in our own banes an Madera control
over the expenditure. But what he complained of was, end
*hat the hum had a right to complain of wee, that they
sumwere called on to vote the largof 500,0041 without
n issue once from Turkey that she would amain the condi-
tions aud contrel which were ti accompany the lora. The
noble loci eaid,indeed, that to believed the Turkish govern-
ment would tierce to the arrangements for the disposal of
the m^ney. Dot ho did not think the noble lord'. belief
was jwstifleatint enough for them to vote 5,000,0001. of
money. (Hoar, hear.) Re did nut thine that the cue of
the Greek loan was in point, because there were three par-
ties, namely, England, France, and Russia, parties to that
loan ; and one of them—Russia—had interest, at nehmen
with the oth-r two. But in the present case there were bat •
two parties—Franca and England ; auel he believed that
France hoi the stone interest with Jiogland in the matter.
No doubt there was a lavish expenditure of money towards
the close of the last war, hut be believed the loans to
R Asia, Austria, and Spain contributed to the termiumion
of the war and to procure a forty years' peace. The noble
lord was in his opinion liable to the charge of not setting
forth sufficient ground; fur nroposing this advance. He
begged leave to state, from whet he knew of Turkey, some
gloom's why it was do irable to sustain her in her present
difficulties. The Turk IA government bad 250,000 no, to in arms
at the present moment. which was • great drain epos the
resources of the country. Of these there wan between
50 000 and 60,000 in the Crimea, end let him and well sup-
plied with %ninety and some cavalry. To those who knew
Turkey, It was a matter of astonist mint how she weal:led
her army on the Danube and. the Crimea, besides,. her
army, however impufectly supplied, in Asia Hiner.
Ilader these circumstances it was quite clear that whatever
, defects might exist in the, tinanaial system of Turkey she
had absolutely maintained .her army. He (the gallant
general) had seen her troop., and they were well armed,
wall clad, and tolerably well fed. That we. • proof that
there was no sash extreme derailment in the Ottoman
empire ; and her army, so far from deteriorating, was im-
proving. Hat they were told that there was a great deal of
corruption In Turkey, sad be thought that if we were
tolled upon to guarantee her a loan a strip. arrangement
should be entered into with regard to the manner in which
it was to he spent. He thought, foe instance, it would be
well to stipulate that some of it should be applied to Iltie
purpose, of the 20,000 men who were being embodied under
General Vivian, lied the 4.000 cavalry who were mho sent
from this country under General Beatsca. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LAING felt very strongly that they ought not to sane.:
lion any measure of this dereription, Involving, as it did, a
fresh li ibility, until they had bad some opportunity of die-
tuning the principles, the policy, and the objects of the weir.
(C Seers,) Since the debate raised by the right hon. gen-
Mclean the member for Backs, which had taken plate not
only in ignorance but under • complete misapprebensinn of •
the facts of the case, the eerresmnidence relating to the con-
ferences at Vienna had been laid upon the table, and the
house found themselves in the pavilion of having broken off
the negotiations contrary to the expressed opinions of tee
whole of the eminent statesmen who repretented the four
allied powers. (Cheers.) He would, however, abstain
from the general question of the war, because he thought
that upon the present occasion they ought rather to conbns
themselves to the merits of this as a financial measure. sup-
pule" that Its object was ti good one. Now, the
objections which had been urged sgaiut the sys-
tem of guarantee, iteemed to him to have a
grant and overwhelming force. (Cheers) Tinge
objects divided themselves into two chaos, tinceetal
and political. Financially, there was the same fatal fan lity
about raising money in this way that there was in rasing
money by putting one's came to bits of stumped paper.
(Loud cheer') They were told that the li,blities the
country would incur wont(' be absolutely nothing, whereas
the assistance to Tut key would he very great. B et that was
• complete fallacy. (Cheers.) The national credit, great as
it war, was neverthe.ess an exhaustible quantity, and the
more they withdrew in order to guarantee a loan the less •
they would leave fir other purposes. (Cheers) Besides.,
look at the effect it would have upon the price of the
uted In round numbers to
700,000,0001., and if by entering into • system of unlimited
guarantees they reduce prices only one per cent. the coun-
try would at once incur • less of seven millions, and
aPrbi aceuamb Itblkaoieicnieotaffl
Ennaid themall .a
12P. Tdbhui° eat
Francet
the
fondss r s t
might
a instance;°Ecuttt
the national credit would also Le shaken to that
extent. (Hear, bear.) BeAdis, by benign.); into the
market a floating quantity of stock equally eligible
for investment they would render has favoursble the terms
on which the country could hereafter contract loans for its
own purposes. (Cheers.) With respect to political objets-
tims to the eystcm of quantum, he r cod not enter at any
it length
hadgt
itthe
beanut
University
ao
inv
et
sh dealtt
tt y
withosubjectto
Abt
oyar
tt after
hisr
vrt
ihdbehatf
to
beeset
aibs!
em friend
proposed
teourtehre.
ei in wo bhj
memberitecht
fo
of the loan It was to secure the indepeuderce .if Turkey;
dbwouodtu edeb
eett enhpottahl
ld
gutting of • canal through the Isthmus of Sues, bemuse in
etyd
tphrdoroiseddclepito
ntadkeeddereeu(tud outdadllheoethr) be toe
politicalright
objection to a loon for such en object as the
to
add to the four pine a
Turk,
cite
ittigteehht a matter
wouf idjinterference;
rtifte
retwhde•cuelrd;rbituttidesirableis
filtuild,nt
present
obtaino. tht
it
se y
instance
ff,ttpuednecgrthcpetetual
hat
It ethic should never guarantee a loan to y,
objection involved in the cher Cis it might
dweltbeen upon. But did
with our associate had already
they not all know
olofreasbidlinthgawt
in private life that if they wanted to
ithmheinergeoesebe:newAldar,lilecorqtraTehtt_thquarrel
Rood terms with any one, how desi-
pthautticouelarerlyshnuld be no pecuniary transectiocs
SzpavoldsenattbuertauTyuerckmey. should
make
liwuessthheautlditgwoaisn our
taro
owe fault, and refuse to pay her share. Or France might
dert h
thei foriigEg y bara
Egyptian
tribute,
thought it was hie duty therefore, as a repre-
sentative t.a t
od
Fef
maul
est;
,the(Cchreeetrito)r
ll
me
vigorous prosecution of the war, to vote against the motion.
rtCe.ak)neodyf Ill:h.:ltlpeople,iheli me
du
istet
however Mediterranean,
much he was disposed for a
Mr. CARDWELL, ILL COBDEN, end DIIIIIAZLI Mr. opposed
the etiolation.

Idr. WILKINSON thought that this had been more a
debater about pain or war than alma this Pan, and
be had no doubt that the peate•at-any-pries party
would all be found in one lobby on the division. The qua-
den waa whether it was best to give this money or to tend
it, and that he thought it was the business of the executive
to consider whether we should take the one or the other
Rode in order to bring the war to a saocesital onelasion.