The Express.
London, England, 1855-08-07 00:00:00

TURKISH LOAN BILL

Oa the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Lord ST. LRONARDS said be believed that there was
no difference of opinion upon the necessity for the war; bat
he thought that before they advanced • loan of this sort
they should be satisfied that it bad not been in the power
of the government of this country to make a safe and
honourable peace ; and if they were satisfied on those two
points, there could be no great difficulty in coming to the
conclusion that they should grant assistance to Turkey in
the shape of money. Nothing was further from his inten-
tion than to go into the details of the Vienna conferences,
but he wished to draw their lordships' attention to the
matter, and endeavour to satisfy them of that which he
was strongly motioned of, that Russia war sincere in
entering on those conference, nor at any period of them,
except in this, to carry her own point solordiog to her own
coretruetien. As early as the end of 1864, or the beginning
of 18.56, the four points were agreedon ; the third point being
that the Treaty of 1841 should bo re-considered with the view
of admitting Turkey into the European family of nations, and
for the purpose, of putting an end to the preponderance of
Russia in the Black Sea. It was impossible that words
could be stronger: it was not to curtail or limit, but to pat so
end to. When the first conference was held the terms were
very judiciously stated, and Prince Oortchakoff thanked'
Count Boot for having stated the ease and put It so fairly
before them ; and the proposition being to consider in what
way the preponderance of Russia in the Black Sea could be
put an end to, Prince Oortcbakoff put in a sort of proviso—
which did not sound at all alarming at the time, but which
was afterwards worked out to much g dimen
sions—that Russia would consent to nothiag which
would compromise her honour. The Allies bed
ao intention to compromise the honour of Russia. but they
had declared, in the moat emphatic terms, that they
intended to put an end to the preponderance of Russia in
the Bleck Sea. At lest the third point was raised, and the
first question, the admission of Turkey into the European
family, was agreed to on all hands, and the four powers
e nteaded that Russia bad agreed to guarantee the integrity
of the Turkish empire; but Prince Oortchakoff denied it,
and claimed that it should be left to Russia to say, when
the event arose, whether she would guarantee the integrity
of the Turkish territory or not. That was the first differ
ence ; and the question then came on what principle
they were to proceed in carrying out the second
portion of the third paint. that the preponderant*
of Russia in the Black Sea should be pat
an and to. It wee proposed that Russia should
take the initiative, but Prince Oertchakoff declined,
end desired that Turkey should take the initiative ; but
Turkey very properly said she was bound to go with the
allies by treaty, and she could not accept the proposal. The
Russian plenipoteatiary then desired to refer to St Peters
burg, and there was a delay of three weeks gained by
that reference to St. Petersburg. He asked their lord-
ships to consider what the effect of that delay was on the
oroceediogs before Sebastopol; for he thought that
there was nothing so well calculated to damp the ardour
of soldi. re before a formes as the knowledge that
peace was being nested upon, and was likely to
take place. Some fortnight afterwards, when it
answered the purposes of Russia, communications
from Prince Oortchakoff to St. Petersburg were
almost as rapid as thought, and the some despatch
might have been used before it Russia had been sincere.
They, however, had the means of knowing that Prince
Oortchakoff had the power to take the initiative, for Count
Nesaelrode, in a summary of the proceeding., said " That
the Emperor Nicholas, admitting the right of Turkey over
the Straits, was prepared to admit the flags of all nations
ice the Black Sea, provided that Russia was permitted to
eater the ?deditemnua ; and that the Emperor Alexander
had declared that the resolution and determination of the
Emperor Nicholas should be strictly adhered to." Could
anybody doubt that that resolution was carried by
Prince Gortchakoff to Vienna? After a long de.
lay, Prince Oortchekoff, on the 21st March, an-
nounced that be would be ready quill to enter
upon negotiations, and whes the conferences were
again opened, he stated explicitly that Russia would not
take the initiative, and he made two very important decla-
rations; first, hs stated that Russia would not submit to any
regulations which would infringe her sovereign rights in her
own territory ; and he also said that that third proposition
extended to Sebastopol, and therefore that no proposition
would be listened to, to infringe her rights there. The
next statement was, that she would not submit to any limit
in the number of her vessels in the Black Sea. If neither
the territory were to be affected, nor the number of ships
litnioed, how was that consistent with the understanding
that the Russian preponderance war to be pot an end to ? it
*opened to him that at that time the conference was pro-
perly at an end. After a time, however, it was stated OD
the part of the We vern Powers aad Turkey, that the
proper mode of carrying out the second part of the third
point, was by the limitation of the Russian flieet in the
Black Sea. That war very much discussed sad considered,
and it was said by Priam Oortchakoff that it was necessary
for the balance of power in Europe and the safety of the
Ottoman Empire that Russia should have a considerable
fleet in the Black Sea, end he entered into a discussion to
show that Russia was powerless for attack on Turkey in the
Black See, and that all they had to do was to leave Turkey
alone, and she would delepd herself. Audacity could not
have gone further than the making of that statement. He
had no intention to my a single word again*
what had been dose b Lord John Renal, bet
be sash "'pre= his deep regret that he, is
oussrtfwith 11. Drosyn de Lhuys, had oontesanioated to the
Austrian minister that we did appose to have thrown away
an opportunity which we had of making peace with the
concurrence of the representatives of all the powers. It was
a matter of dun regret, but he mast say that he thought
the government had acted tightly in rejecting the proposi-
tion. He lad, however, elperved that the proposition had
been made in another place the ground of meking the
strong charge against the governmut, that they were visit-
ing nations with all the calamities of war which might have
been avoided by accepting the Austrian proposition. He
was strongly of opinion that the government bad stud
rightly in not accepting the proposition ; end for this reason
that it was only proposing what had Been rejected in the
strongest terms throughout the conference. The neat pro-
position was, that Turkey and Russia were to agree on some
limitation of the naval tort in the Meek Sea. Now, ought
the English government to have entered on that proposition ?
It was the very proposition that Ramis had rejected in the
strongest terms during the conferences, and bow could they
ask to proceed on that proposition when the conference had
been closed, and the very proposition had been tendered
and refused by Russia? If they had began again upon
that proposal, it would have bees easy for Ramie to play
with Turkey as bog sash, pleased. (Hear, bear.) There
was no room for despondeney—(hear, hear)—and
if they desponded they never ought to have
entered upon the war. So far from there being room
for despondency, when they foiled that the Remiss
flag wee not to be seen is her own waters, they must con-
siWer what would be the effect on other aatioes which had
ben aceastomed to wonder the Black Sea as a Rennin
lake. He gave Ruda credit for what she bad done in the
defence of Sebastopol, but he thought that the attack of the
Allies had been is point of gallantry more conspicuous than
the defences. Thies observations brought him to the bill
before the hoes*. His noble Mead (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) had stated the other evening that be should have
pre a subsidy. He (Lord St. Leonard') was not
emedy prepared to with that, bathe must say that if
a guarantee was to begesse • loan, sad that loan a subsidy,
he would rasher grant a subsidy at awe. (Hear. hear.)
In the present ease, the. very first payment which this
country bad to maks would convert the guarantee into a
loan, and that would be ore step of the process. He thought
too that it was • very impolitic measure to take as a special
pledge from Turkey, the Egyptian tribute, end thus to
I beeeme, as it were, the assignee of that tribute. Egypt
would naturally ask u why we had put ourselves in such

a treertion as ft-girded her after the facilities which she bed
st.rded us for panic, through her territory. Great difli
cultism would also arise from the hypothecation of the
Smyrna customs. If throe custom's were not paid, would
they take poeses•lon of the custom•bouse and pert' ,rm the
odious office of Custom house oaken ? But if they did not,
how would they enforce the bond ? (Hear, hear.) Another
matter which be must noires was the extraordinary manner
in which the words " conichstessaut et solidosionoonf" had
bun translated by the Foreign.of9oe. He (Lord St.
LeonarA) bad by him an steeliest old dictionary—that of
Riebello, an acocot, who published it about 150 years egu—
and Irmo the definition given by him there could not be a
doubt fist the phrase meant "jointly and severally." Bat
to the Boglieh Terri ,a it was rendered by the word
"jointly." In the other house an attempt had been made
to cartel the error, but they had done it in a most ludicrous
manner, for they had made the passage run that her Ms•
jesty Wend herself jointly with the Emperor of the French,
and severally—that was to say, jointly with the Emperor,
sod severally by herself. The words ought to nave bees,
that her Molest, bound herself jointly and severally with
the Imperar.
The Berl of CLARENDON—But you can't alter the
easvention. _

Iwd.lT. LEON ARDS said that they bad altered it ,•
and all** he was consandiag for was simply that it should
be properly translated, and then it would all come right
again, for he supposed that the convention bad two signed
is Frame.

fie Berl of CLARENDON—And in English.
Lord BT. LEONARDS—But it was a wrong translation,
and both could not stead. The other night the noble earl
(Lord Clarendon) had said that the entering into this joint
undertaking would not make a bit of difference in the lia-
bility of ths two countries; bat he (Lord St. Leonard!)
supposed that if one of the contracting powers refused to
pay its share, the ether, if solvent, and desirous of acting
heneurably, would be obliged to pay every sbilliog. (Hear,
hear.) A formal declaration had been recently nude on
behalf of the two governments, by which it stunned that
England was to advance the interest in case Tutkey made
default, end to look to France to reimburse her for her share.
That, he ventured to think, was an impolitic arrangement.
As far as his own experience went, there was, with a sine,
exception, no deb of which a man was so much disposed to
chine plasma alone for which he was only a guaraatee. The
single exception to which he had referred was a debt which
a poison paid with still greater reluctance, a debt namely for
which be bad made himself jointly liable which his co surety
had discharged, and of which he now asked him to pay his
share. (Hear.) When, however, he (Lord St. !eunuch')
o:mimed his opinion that it would have been better
not to have catered into the arrangement agreed upon, he
did nut del the slightest doubt as to the perfect loyalty and
good faith of our ally. (Cheers.) Another point to which
he wished to call the attention of her Majesty's government
was the stipulation that the Turkish government should
remit the interest for each half year on certain specified
days, namely, the 25th of June sod the Mho( Member.
The effect of that would be to render it incumbent upon the
English government themselves to find the money in the
first instance. It would be much fairer if the Turkish
government were required to send the money a few days
earlier, so that there might be a fund oat of which the in-
t might be paid. (Hear, heir.) On the whole, he was
inclined to agree with his noble friend (the Earl of Ellen-
borough), that it would have been better to great Turkey a
!subsidy, which we could have applied at one own discretion.
He would have seen that the money went to relit ve the
military difficulties of our Ottoman ally, and he would thus
have Attired a proper supervision over 'he Turkish force s
in Asia Miser. If that had been done he had no doubt
that they would have been able to strike a fatal blow at the
operations of Russia in that quarter. (Hear.)
The Earl of CLARENDON said that, although many of
the observations of his noble and honied friend would have
been better delivered on the second reading of the bill, his
noble friend need hardly have made any apology, either for
the state of the house or the period of the session, in addres•-
' ing to their lordebitte • speech of such very great importance
that to which they had just listened (Hear, hear) His
noble friend had with great el gone through the
' erotocols of the conferences at Vienna ; he had summed up
the whole of the proceeding', and he had pronounced a judg-
ment which he (Lord Clarendun) thought would have
gent elf. ct upon the country. (Hear, hear.) There was
bat one portion of his noble friend's speech, on which he
. it necessary So make any remarks. The noble
lbrttaid that 1$ days had been lost in sanding to St. Peters.
burg, and the noble lord seemed to think that that delay had
been prejudicial to our military operations at Sebastopol. The
same observation would have been equally applicable so the
whole period during which the conferences were held. The ob.
jectof th,ee conferences was undoubtedly to lead to pe .ce; and
foreseeing that they might therefore have a certain effect
in paralysiog the movements of both the French cud Eng-
lish commandeer, the two governments wrote out tt Lord
Raglan and to 0 1 Cenroeert, stating that they had
resolved to attend the confetenees because they thought it
their ditty not to omit guy chum of arriving at a peaceful
solution of the question; that they did so at the special
invitation cf Austria; that they were hopeless that the
conferences would sad in peace ; and that, therefore, they
urged both the commanders not to relax in their efforts, but
rather en increase them, buses, they felt certain that
nothing would tend so much to bring about a successful
issue to those cosferenees as a great military success.
(Cheers.) He (the noble lord) had, therefore, not the least
idea that the delay had bad any prejudicial effect upon our
military operations in the Eon (Hear, hear.) The noble
and learned lord had expressed his regret that his noble
friend Lord John Russell should have lent himself to certain
propositions which had been made by Russia, and should so
fax have created a notion in Europe and more
particular) y in Germany, that thouterms ought
to have been emptied He thought that there had
been a good deal of misrepreeentatien about his noble friend.
The noble lord certainty went to Vienna—es all his conduct
had shown—ardently desirous of pout if a safe and
honourable peace could be concluded. Having an idea when
about to :eau Vienna slot further propositions were about
to be made to him, he thought it was right that his colleagues
should have an opportunity of considering some proposals
that were different from those which be had It en instructed
to make. He therefore undertook to ley those proposals
before her Majesty's government; he did so, end they were
rejseted ; but be did not think that the noble lord (Lord J.
Russell) had shown too great a readiest, to adopt these pro-
positions. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the loan, he was
very glad to hear that his noble friend did consider this war
just and necessary; that it must be conducted with vigour
and energy ; and that it would be short sighted and
ill-
advised to refuse assistance to Turkey. He (Lord Claren-
don) was far from dissering from much that bad fallen from
the noble earl the other night on the subject of suosidies.
He was far from saying that if this war lasted long, we
might sot find ourselves obliged to resort to that system,
although it war one that was now very repugnant to this
country. But we were not in a position to take
that course now. Turkey came to us, and sad
she was atle and willing to pay both the principal
sad the interest of her proposed loan, bat that
if England and France would go surety for her she wouid
be able to obtain the money on better terms, and to that
extent she would be better able to carry on the war. Were
the Wed governments under those circumstances to lay,
"Yon have neither the intention nor the means to pay, and
we insist upon your accepting the money as • present ?"
(Here, hear.) With respect to the objection to the bill
suggested by the legal ingenuity of his noble friend, it
seemed to Ida that, Wein et the ebleele etas eseventlea.
it wee the 'homiest and met straightforward transutiou
possible. It was considered in the Foreign-olio* that the
words " conerisgentent if solideitvmmt,' meant the same
thing, that was "jointly and conjointly ;" and they had
therefore only used the ono word " jointly " in the transla-
tion. At the same time he would remind his noble friend
that what the governments both of France and England
would be bound by would be neither the treaty nor the act,
but the terms of the bond itself.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not interested is say-
ing that the translation was a good one. He did not think
it was. He considered however, that ea between nation
and nation, whether a contrast was joist or several was ab-
solutely of no importance. His noble friend (Lord St.
Leotards) started at that. Of course between individuals
it was a matter of considerable importance whether a mu
held &joint sad I or merely a joint bead, because in
the one case he could sue the parties together, or bring an
action against either of them. But in the cue of • con-
tract between two nation', they could take neither of them
into a court of justice. They could only rely oa the at-
demanding that had been come to.
After a few words in explanation from Lord St. Lao-
NASD'S,
_ _ .

The Dill was passed through committee.
Some other bills were silenced • slammed
Their lordships adjourned at 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, Auo. 6.
[Cootiased from yesterday's Ilzpress].
THE INDIAN FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that when the President of the
Board of Control brought on his statement to-morrow (thin
day) of the itheneiel position of India, he would move a re-
wisdom desisting it to be the opinion of the house that
with a view to bring the annual statement of the finances of
India more clearly before the house the President of the
Board of Control should consider the practicability of
making op the smooth to the 30th of October in each year,
instead of the 30th of April, and laying it before parliament
in the moo* of March, end farther that to afford the op-
portunity of giving to the subject the consideration its im-
portance required the annual statement should be made to
the Howes W Commons at an early period in each session. In
moving this resolution it was his intend= to make some
observations in reference to the affairs of India.
THE SPECIAL SERVICE FUND.
•

Lard J. RUSSELL ;iYed To—Mille • eta-teiiiint in rs.

lettuce to some names that had beeu Inane m another
place as to the appropriation of a sum of money from the
Special Service Fund to the purposes of the it tyal Swiety.
It had, he understood, be en said that'll& en applicati(n of
any portion of the fund in question was • misapproptistion
of a fund specially intended for charitable objerta. He
could only state what wee his own Impression upon the sub-
ject, and that impression was that the fund was intended to
be devoted to special services and the royal bounty, and the
proposal he made was, that if sums of money were applied
through the Royal Society to discoveries, inventims, and
scientific purposes of that nature, it might fairly be con-
sidered as an appropriation for special services. Of course,
after such application hid gone on for three or four years it
might be right for the house no longer to confider it in the
light of an arpronrismion fur special service, but then, as it
appeared to him, it was still a special purpose for which the
government might propose, and parliament very properly
might vote a sum of money in t►e estimates. What ha
wished to observe, therefore was, that this was not a misap-
propriation of aunty intended for charitable purposes, but
an appropriation for a special and uselul purpose to which the
fund might properly be spoiled, for it must not be forgotten
that though science had en eye that never closed and • wing
that never Sagged, it had not a purse that wee never empty.
He did net consider the appropriation en improper one, and
be hoped asum of money, not exceeding the amount which
had been granted, would continue to be allowed from this or
some other source fur the promotion of scientific objects.
Mr. HEYWOOD oaiierved that the grant relericd to
had been the spontaneous act of the Prime Minister at the
time. The Royal Society had no wish to press for it as a
charitable rant, bat as • c intribution in aid of science.
Viscount PALMERSTON said it would be impossible to
continue the grant from the source from which it had been
for the moment supplied, although the purposes to which it
had been devoted were well deserving encouragement by the
public, and the money had been economically and judicionely
expended. What he proposed was, fcr the present year to
issue tne same amount out of the sum grant, d by the house
for civil contingencies, and in future to include in the mis-
cellaneous estimates a vote of 1,0001. fcr this particular
service.