The Express.
London, England, 1864-02-24 00:00:00

THS SEIZURE OF THS STEAM RAYS.

Mr. S. FITZGERALD rose to move for an 'Admen far
copies of all correspondence between 'the various depart-
ments of her Majesty's government, or officers in her
Majesty's service, and Messrs. Laird Brother., relating to
the two iron-clad vessels, the El Towson sod El Moosera,
building by that arm, and seised by order of her Majeity's
government; and of any papers or correspondent* that had
teased between her Majesty's government and the govern-
ment of the United &Mee, or than representative, Mr.
Adams, relating to the said meals. No urn would
more deprecate any different* or hostility between
this country and the United States then himself.
He believed that such • war would be most dreadful
for both, and a most unnatural war, and he hoped
he should never see the day when it was entered
upon ; but if he was told that the English government, is
order to avoid such a war, wee to tramper the law, and
seise the property of • British subject without any curl&
cellos, them be said he could Dever approve of the conduct
of • minister who would take such • course, bat, on the
contrary, was prepared rather to accept any sioneequences.
(Hear.) He asked the house to give him these papers, to
enable the public and parliament to judge whether the
government had done their duty, whether they
had overstepped the Law—whether they had strained the
law, and if so, for what reason and under what circum-
stance, that had been done. The hon. gentleman opposite,
he was told, would decline the papers Oa tbefgronod that
they referred to matters still under judicial inverigatioo.
He had already mid that If the question of the legality of
the leisure of these rams—for they had now been seised—
were involved, there would be great fora in the objection.
But that wss not the ground he took at all. The ground
he took was whether the preceding step of the government
with reference to the detention of the rains were legal or
not. That did not form in any way the subject of legal in-
vestigation, and as far as regarded that he thought the ob-
jection would fail. (Hear, hear.) But he took still
higher ground. He thought that in the interest of
justice them papers ought to be produced. There was
nothing that the people of this country were more remark-
able for them, their respect for the law. There was only one
thing of which they ought to be still prouder. With all
their respect for the law there was a feeling dominant in
every cloak and that was a eslousy of the powers of the
execative ever being • or the law over being over-
stepped to the is*, of the rights or the endangering of
the privileges of the maned of her Majesty's subjects,
, (Chasm) He wanted the correspondent* between her
Majesty's government and Messrs. Laird. All Rho
letters were in the hands of Mr. Laird, who hod
only to send them to the newspapers to have them
published at once, and he did not moo why the House
of Onntmoos should sot have placed in their poems-
aim an authoritative version. (Hear, hear.) The other
primes he required were the correspondence between her
'Majesty's government air the gorse nment of the
United States, and be did not think there could
be any °birdies to that. Half • dozen members had
copies, the principal letters had been published in
every newspaper in the Uoited States, some had been
quoted in newspapers here ; and why should the House of
Commons be prevented from inquiring into the conduct of
the government by the withholding of papers which were
already in print ? (Hear, hear.) rpm trees pounds he
hoped the house would enforce the production of the papers
for which he asked, and thou they would know whether
her Majesty's government had or had Dot behaved in that
way which alone entitled them to the support of the people
of this country. (Cheers.)

The AITOffNEY-GEN:ERAL argued that the production
of these papers while the question was wider judicial in-
vestigation would be as interference with the coulee of
justice, and that in the conduct maned by the government
they bad done no more than redeem the pledge given by
this country to observe a strict neutrality. Alluding to
the note of Mr. Adams, he contended that it was the right
of a foreign elate to represent the injury it apprehended.
and to call upon a friendly power to enforce its laws and
fulfil its obligations of mentrality ; and further that it
wee the duty of the latter power, not oversteppine
its own laws, but acting firmly, boldly, and eourageously
up to the extent of those laws, to pay attention to such
repreeent•tione and put the law into effect The house
might be assured that her Majesty's governmeat had good
✓oue& for what they had does. They ware engaged in
rrting inquiries ia the awe, which, though imperfect,
oinutbeir mod Aron remota to believe that the result
of those inquiries would prove to be that the rams were in-
tended for an illegal purpose. They, therefore, upon their
own responsibility, detained them ; and he held that they
would him been grossly wanting in their duty if at ter their
experience la the ease at the Alabama they had Dot taken
the responsibility of saying that they would not permit
jetties to be evaded until they could judge whether the ships
ought to be seised or not. Throughout they had been
actuated by so other motive than that of vindloatiag the
law end at clew that by other countries that we should ex-
pect them to do by vs.

11r. HORSFALL said that every shipbuilder had a legal
right to build ships, and they ought not to be de-
prived of that right, for it was the wise policy of
this eenstry, not may as regards its commercial, but its
political interests, to encourage the building of vessels.
The eyes of theeeestry were upon the government watching
the policy which they pursued. He considered the course
they had takes in the cams of the Alexandra. and in the case
Of NMI wee an act of cruel injustice and an act of prorli-
pie ex nof pubbc money. (Hear, hear.)

Lord R. CECIL - mud it was clear that I. detaining
these vessels her Majesty's government had acted in
the interests of the Federal States, and It might
therefore be supposed that they had so acted in
cosmogonies of the threats of the Federal'. The present
Howe at Comma's had been called the tamest and the
humblest that had ever existed. (Chem.) They were told
that they sneaked into their plates and allowed the govern-
ment to page for them whatever niessares they thought 61 ;
and the hoses would really deserve them nvproaclies if
they allowed the govarnmeat to act as they had acted, and
thee to avow that they had done so at the instals*
of a foreign state which threatened thou with war. (Rear.)
I He traded that they week) have a tome satisfactory defence
al the government than had yet been made. (Hear, bear.)
Bat if so such dehisce were offered, the house would not be
doing its ditty if it did sot formally record its censure of
this smaraptioo of a sew dispeasing power—(cheere)—this
new power of somending the rights of the coliject —this
new establishment of despotic claims which might ant per
baps be out of place at Si. Petersburg or Waablegteni, but
white were wholly unsuited to the atmosphere of Loadcm.
(Chaos.)

Yr. W. FORSTER remarked that same of the questions
raised in the debate should have been made the subject of a
specific motion that would test the opinion of the house.
The government alleged that they bad obtained information
ae to the destination of these rams, had taken upon them-
selves the reepoosibdity of acting as they had does, and the
question raised should have in view to test the propriety of
that act.
Sir H. CAIRNS said the object in asking foe the latter
papers was to know what it was that Mr. Seward
to be an infringement of international law haling:ll64
leaving thin country, and what was the answer of
our government. Referring to the cases of the Alabama
and the Oreto, he complained of Lord Rueseirs having
stigmatised them as a scandal to our law, which he con-
, treated with certain declarations of Lord Palmerston with
reference to those cease. Raving stated what he thought
were sufficient reasons why the house should have a full
account of the tiorrespondence between our government
and that of the United States, he entered upon a severe
criticism of the proceedings of the government in relation
to the seizure of the rams. end, as aground for calling for
the production of the correspondence with Messrs. Laird,
he c the government with having dons, on their own
conteassou, what wan illepl and without excuse, as well as
without law or constitutional practice. The wretched pre-
tence that it was don, by them „on their own responsi-
bility" had been pleaded in former times for the most violent
breaches of the law. In the ease of the rams the govern-
meat had taken a course which, in that of the Alabama,
they had distinctly declared to the American government
they could not take, as it wee illepl and unconstitutional.

The SOLICITOR-OEYERAL observed that the corret
sposdenee with Ms re. Laird would be imperfect without
explanations. U the ofileen of the crown were to wader.
government proseentioes they must °abduct this use like
others, and it wee never permitted that a part of the eel.
deuce io a cans should be produced. lo the came of the
rams, which was not one of ONTO suspicion, the government
had information upon oath, and the course they took—and
' this was the charge against them—wan the milder coarse.
He admitted that they must prove their caw; but the
house would not desire to see all their evidence. The law
cams of the crown had endeavoured to pursue the
straight path, without turning to the right or the left.
They would never advise the government to submit to
emit or indignity.
Mr. WALPOLE said the Solicitor-Crenersl hod con-
(=tided the obligations of municipal law with those of in-
ternational law, which were entirely aad essentially distinct.
Another fallacy, which bed appeared in the debate, was that
of confounding the duties of a neutral state with the duties
of the subjects of a neutral power. If the municipal law
was run into the international law, the prerogative right
pet forward by the Attorney. General on the part of the
government—that of acting on their own respoasibility—
was of very serious import. When be heard Sir IL Corns
showing whip by step that the government had been acting
without any authority (for the act of parliament gave them
no such power as that they had exercised), he put it to the
great merchants in the bons. whether they were to be
frightened by the arguments of the Solicitor• General,
though they were notviolating international law by budding
ship, for sale. They did ft at their own peril ; but they
were not more wrong than in selling guns or ammunition,
or In eadeavoaring to break the blockade.

Mr. T. BASING-4 had not intended to address the
home co this eocasioo, but as the right boa. gristlier:me has
appealed to the merchants of the country, as as humble
member of the community of merchant., though eat
11111111Mi0C to myself to reptant them, I cannot bat
agaisst the minim of my boo. and right hon.
(ministerial eheers)—that by the sanctioning of meserares
whisk wield Mime! Me anabgal privatises war numb