The Express.
London, England, 1852-06-15 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESD ‘Y EVENING, JUNE 15, 18,2.

cony by the troops of Austria. The noble lord who pro- ,
firmed to dread the induenco of despotic courts, and professed '
himself such a warm advocate of the liberal governments of
Europe, took an extraordinary course in recornmendritg
such a step. But, even waiving that question, another.
although • minor difficulty, would haver arisen If
the noble lord had first adopted the course of go.
cognising the responsibility of Austria. It was admitted
by the noble lord that it could riot be said that the Dam
iu 11111.1dieft had nut hem la'Utii.ltt to justice, whatever I
might have been time nature of the tribunal or the jostles
of the sentence. It could not he denied that her hail been
brought before one of the regular tribunal, of his est%
country and tried and acquitted.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Not one of the legal tribunals.
land sT.t N LEY had always thought that a cow t or•
tial was one of the legal and recognised tribunals of • coun-
try. Further he believed that it was the only course that
could base been adopted according to the Austrian
law. Another part of the cab to which the noble lord
had referred at considerable length was the nature of the
reparation, affirming that the character of Mr. Mather 44
been damaged in the transaction, and that it had been Use
object of the governor •nt so to damage it. lie must deny
that the government had any such intention.
Lord J. Itt'sSELL—l did not say it was their object,
but tin:result of the transaction.
Lord-STANLEY—WeII, the result. That the applies-
t. tit Mr. Mather having been tomiounicated to the. Ana-
trian government, his character had thereby been damaged.
It that really the ease, the government would take the
earliest possible opportunity of fully and frankly hearing
their testimony to the conduct and character of Mr. Mather
throughout the whole transactinu. Mr. Mather hut no
doubt suffered much from 'ninety and annoyance; and,
acting without knowledge of what was taking place, and
under feelings naturally excited, if even under such sir
cuurstencts he hail nut always done justice to the
goverioneut, that was no reason why the government
should nut do justice to him. (Bear, hear.) Ile
LLord Stanley) did not think that there bud been
anything reprehensible in the conduct of Mr. Mather. He
admitted the difficulty in which he was placed be hying re-
quired to fix his compensation for the injury. Mr. Mather
took the national view that an Englishman hail been in-
sulted by • forei?n government, and that a penalty should
be inflicted commensurate to the gravity of the offence.

which has teen published by the Catholic He—
at..., Logiatiosi, a paragraph addressed to the catholic,
',,, inland, i thurtiog them to place their conflileseet, as the
1,mo:oil. du in men in too, or of a protestant education,
: , a. omit men ae are in favour of a catholic education.
`ti,,,.).,e) Why, if auu goo vi ey to the protestant, you
meet 4 ~, way to tie eatholic—(hear, hear)—and what be- y
, .. then, of the mixed education set up by the Ear. of
'w
k•rio himself, which dues him the greatest honour, but
'bad it apace'. he ia UU A r.a.ly to .alt. -r or to allow to
• totally cheapw in spirit and turpose 1 Suppes,ng
yes do elect this change, are there no other questions
that Von raise therrhy : You give 150,01111,- fur education
is Ireland. It is impoesible to you to give jie,,,, that.
alO sg., or at the utinum .aetilith. to the established church.
sou well . It the' le• givoig Itio.imelf. exclusively fur catholic
fah,,,t„,o What a ill he the consequence of that ? You
all 4,1 that vote without o much dafficulty, but if that
qui • two comes to be a Maynooth iteedian—(hear, hear)—
.
a qui stein et voting lieldeele. for catholic purposes, for per-
„., to le• ,duseteil in the liftman catholic faith, surely
pee will he as many "like:tine to the 100,0001. th, ed.-
can in a. there arc to the '26,llikli. for Maynouth. This is
t danger of disturbing existing arrangements. (Cheers.)
I:ut tot eaten, al with disturbing education in Ireland, the
it...raiment :are prepared to timper a ith the grant for
.Jued..iii in England. (liar, hear) I have seen
tee minute on the subject toolay. I only wish I hail
oen it mime sie weeks ago, when the vote fur
oho item in Loglatal was takeu. It smears that ;the mi-
nistry had mode up 111 it minds long ago that they. hove
&lea>. twi-n anxious to do justice to the church of Eng-
lnd. And to r, mote all unjust and unfair reotractien, upon
that charea, bat how ie it that tie-c alt. ragtime were tun
prolmial before the voter 'Loud cheers.) They must
:tees that all questions of education, eontiretril as they are
odh telefoon, always produce the greatest exeitement—
th, y mad know that at the present day there is a great de
areal tor au alteratii n in the coietitution of the church, and
tette they &tyro , i ~,,,, to tuake,any alt. ration in the grant
el ta.oar of that church they ought to have made it ku"wn
ran: time ago. Rut the peeper course would have been
sot to have made the alter .lion at all until there
aas time fur looking into the whole question. (Hear,
li,ar.) Well, then, 1 may say that the government cut
hod nom the mode in which they have proceeded to oc-
cupy office in the preseut state of affairs. We all know that
cam, loss of pelitical reputation occurred to them when,
1 iet y , or, Oh y were Mt .t, ,I by the crown to occupy idle..
ant they Jcvlanot theanolve. unable to hil the set vnol
Inns. of the government. Soon alter that it was pub.iely
a...timed that they had made their dispositions, and that
the y had the means of terming is government when
I ls• .1 upon to do so. ensue, is,ar ) That announcement
tuna A out to he t,trekt ; for it appeared that a very
t- anal and e mom to oeroun had consented ti occupy the
edict of Lord Clrantellor, suit that several country gentle-
men, abandoning the ugreeable pursuits and call business
which belong, to an English country gentlenteu—(a laugh)
—were ready to nooutne the terrible responeibilities of
office —l/41au;hter) —ei that a government could be formed.
But the re wa. Cone thing which they seem to have entirely
forgotten -'hear, hear)—that way what were the principles
eni which they were to act. (Laughter and cheers.) I
sappoiee they thought the principles of a government a trifle
(Renewed tangle, r.) They have been wanting in tixed
eienions on any euliject. Accordingly, nu Wontr dues
an lion. gentknum propose any *object, then they are
r• ale to woe to hie proposals. (Ilear, Lear.) Au hon.
centieutan opposite proceed, to raise the question of letup
n.oth. 'They allow that ilangeroue question to be raised,
aced they say. " W, are quite ready to agree to the motion
to inquiry, though we have no prestut intention of ship
!release Mapoloat ;" and thus they allow Ireland to be
aeveted, though it is clear that no inquiry can take place.
Another gentleman wants to have an alteration in the
managem. id elate., on education. The government are
quite ready to let him have the alteration he seeks for. A
tart ot the church of Ireland to desirous of an alteration in
the treat education ; the government says, " By all means ;
you an' quite right." It iv only (or somebody to start
cum, project or some crude notion, and the government
i. at Loc.• ready to agree to it, sod imp., " Here is a fair
qua 'too to consider; we do nut agree that it can be• carried
tut' flirt at once, hut we thins it quite right that the
iju• .tioa should be agitated." (Cheers.) Why, sir, this is
oil, ring a premium f r agitation on all subjects. I have
stet. il that it was our object to obtain an assurance that the
perliameat should be dissolved as speedily as parable con-
wont with public business, and oleo to otitain some expla•
nation of the policy of the government. Thud explanation
we ei rtaioly have not obtained ; hut we have obtained that
which I think is quite eufflcient. We hive obtained enough
to i 'ltaly lay right hon. friend the member for Ripon to
say that the guy-lion before us i., whether you have coati-
di no in the leerl of Derby's government or whether you
hair not. (Cheery) I know some lion. gentlemen think
my right hon.frieml (Sir JILIIII. Graham) very unreasonab:e,
wi o think with Sir Lucius 0-frigger, who, when told by
Teptein Absolute that he differed with him as to the
opinions he 'repressed, replied that it was most extraordi-
aary that he happened at that moment to be expressing no
opinions what . lion. gentlemen may quarrel with his
right hon. friend (Sir James Graham), but their only
ground of quarrel was, that they had no opinions whatever.
(iLt•letter ) With great deference to them, I think that
in the. country, in England, that is quite a sufficient reason
for my right hon. friend's distrust. (Hear.) This country
can only be eatielied when i. has men ruling it who
have .onie principle and some opinions. It seems a very
popular thing to say to the country, you have only to ex-
press your opinions on this or on that subject, that if we get
a Mu .rtly in favour of the cern lows they dull be re.
enacted, or that if the majority is in favour of free trade,
the present policy admit he carried out. That seems •
popular itoemiou , but depend Upon it the country will de-
title ualy upon the clear and intelligible question, " Will
you, or will you not, place your confidence in • government
which has opinions, no principles, and which is ready to
act open any wind." (Loud cheeriag.)
Lord STAN LEY, who spoke rather indistinctly, said he
did nut ries to defend the general policy of the present go-
vernment from thine most serious, and he must add un-
founded, charges with which the noble lord had thought
fit to conclude his review of • session which the noble lord
might be excused perhaps fur regarding with no very fa •
Towable impression. It was nut for him to defend the
general policy of the conservative cabinet; but, when the
nubile lord made such a direct and personal attack on the
head of that cabinet fur alleged diffmences between him
and some of his followers, and went es tei attack his (Lord
Stanley's) noble friend who presided ONO dr albite
of this country for incapacity in the ormffiset *dmUa
of his department—(hear, hear)—he Wet beOWNWI4 ON
attempting to address the house • and mist AI OM
thew charges came with the worst meals
from the leader of a party which had lfHa
to pieces from no external or hostile assault, lmstt
sokly from the weakness of its orgaMeation, the Isla
petity of it. members any longer to on the hullos of
the country, and their frequent . *ma-
selves. (Conservative cheers.) The amble=
his address by stating that two differs SWAM boa hooey
spread &brood, resting on different , Mcase of Mr. Mather, and added that Ms
noble friend had adopted neither ems mimlen IMP the
but had mixed up both, however OalftleillSlN OP Who okt
the same time believed and disbelieved psalms of bulb.
lie need not remind the house that extesse sight be =ft
to prove anything or nothing, but if her. asabeis wild
look into the volume on the table to es bow his seas
friend hail acted, the discrepancieschanged by the sale
lord would vanish altogether. Lord idalmashairy MOB WI.
mod of speaking of the outrage on Mr. XMber BO owe IMO
as merely accidental, and in another Mess as basal sad Imo
provoked. But it should be recollected that there were Imo
ways of putting a question of this owe m regarded •
government, and the other as it an indlvidgel.
(Hear, hear.) lie could under* Ms noble Mimi as
apia
mine the word " accidental," in the sews that there was
nothing national in the character 0 the stleys, OM it
latently,' no premeditated insult to Magbal, tiwt that It
aria solely out of the highly blamable condom of a Angle
individual. Taken in that sense, he thought the use of the
word by his noble friend was perfectly Wt. But shot did
not prevent it being equally true, that SO 1191 Wild fie kb.
diviettlat committing the offence, and the mhos* of pow
cation received, the outrage might be ea bridal ma
Yoked as any that had ever come under the eswmlgAuYa
of that house. (Ministerial cheers.) He salaam* dm
noble lord also to complain that immediate redeem hod sot
been sought, but that application was in the first imminent
made to the Tuscan tribunals. Ile would admit that the'
Tuscan courts of justice might not be tamed on in the way
best calculated to elicit the truth. He did not for a must
contend that • secret tribunal was as well caleaktail ga lir-
thee the ends of junkie as an open court carried on alosed-
in e to English modes of proceed' , hat he imit say, sot
looking at the constitution of the bane she results
of the trial or inquiry, that he was based to admit that that
inquiry seemed to have been es fairly tarried on as it wadi
poseible to conduct such an investigation. It was impossible
to read the evidence on the table of the house without ma
ing that the inquiry before the Tuscan tribunal had boos
WPM carefully conducted.
Lad J. Ht. SNFILL—I said nothing against that tribes*
Lee! STANLEY had certainly understood the nobbled
le allude to that tribunal as one that was net to be or
'geoid. The noble lord brought the question he a mot
important point, when the Tuscan tribunal *NM 11.1,
having elicited the fact, they could do nothing MIL Yws
qui Otero then arose. first, from what party imoillos WOB
V. he .ought ; and secondly, what was to bens
the mhos M.
that r portion. He must say that, as to the first question.,
he looked upon it with even • greater appreciation of its
tatts,stanet than had been expressed by the noble lord, but
he Inkier upon it sA important in a different point of view.
It woe important from the influence that such a precedent
would p00e.., and the effect it would have in establishing
Oa rule ',f proceeding in similar cases. It Wall not merely
a question of deciding upon the best meant' of bringing an
elf niler to pastier, or of obtaining reparation for a British
Nom-et inoraged in a foreign country, but was a grave
'lOOl nn of inernational law, relating to the actual pat-
hen of the anxili try Austrian force in Tuscany, and
he that meetings should he recognised by European
2',..-rnmenti, a matter he need not say of the gravest irn-
P'n.le,' t.I the territorial integrity of Europe. This queo-
tien wits discussed at considerable lergth in the papers on
the table. and the arguments on both aides were supported
by humeri'', historical parallel.. Suppose they had ad-
mitted the irresponsibility of Tuscany, did the noble lord
win that they should have gone at once to Austria ?
Lord J. ILI SMELL—Both governments.
Lord sTANLEY—But the noble lord's colleNue, Lord
ciromille, had intended to appeal in the fleet instance to
Tuscany, and then, if be failed, to go to Austria, and hold
tae Awarien government liable. (Opposition cheers.)
What would have been the effect of that course? no
'''•ll,- -'oh prori,eil a dread of the influence of despotic go.
r rennet. it. Europe ; but if he wished to support and
,“ Oil
that influence he could not take a better method
~,
• 44 t'. recognise the complete military occupation of Tim-

1I think the present government took a wrong
View ; and I am concerned to my that our charge d'affaires
at Florence was also in the wrong. What is the course, in
the case of a personal attack coninsited on • British sub-
ject abroad, which, as I think, the British government
oueht to pursue ? It is the find duty of the goveronent to
ascertain clearly the facts of the care—to ascertain the de-
gree of injury which the British subject has sustained—
how far he was iu the wrung—or, if out in the wrung, how
far he by whom the injury was inflicted was himself the
enjustiflable avirressor 1 Having dune that, if the govern-
ment dud that au outrage has tecu committed reparation is
demanded. That reparation may consist, first, in a demand
for the punishmentuf the offender; and next, in • demand
for compensation to the sufferer. Upon these points it has
always been the practice for the Secretary of State to consult
the Queen's Advocate ; to lay before that officer the facts of
the ease ; what, according to has view and knowledge of the
habits of courts of justice in this country, might be the
•
fitting sum, as the pecuniary compensation, to be asked be •
ai.d low far, according to international law, the British ge..
vernment might be justified in demanding the punishment 1
of the wrongdoer. Now, in this case, that doss not appellel
to have been dune by either government. The that gams
tem arises—uses there any injury committed ? . I think no
man who has read these papers can hesitate for one
moment in acknowledging that a grievues injury
was inflicted ; that a British subject was expcned to
a moot violent and cowardly attack, for which no
adequate, or indeed any procuration whatever was
°Herne (Cheers.) A British subject liariukeely and
unutfendingly accompanied a banal of music ii, the streets of
Florence. lie was first struck by one officer with a sword ;
he was then struck with the fist of souther olfiver; and
then, in n cowardly manner, he was cut down by the sword
of the officer a ho first struck him. Now what are the feel-
ings of different countries in regard to an muck by an
armed man against an unarmed man ? We all know the
old anecdote of the English butcher, ',he, while employed
in the task of his profession. was struck by a man with
whom he had words. lie reproached the assailant with a good
English sentiment: he said, " What a mean and cowardly
fellow you must be to strike a man with a knife in his
hand and who therefore can't return the blow." (Cheers.)
Thin is the Beglish feeling. (Cheers.) What is the
French feistiest ? Many of us know that there was a dis-
tinguished officer in the British service, Colonel Harvey,
who had lost an arm. Ile was in the cavalry. Ile hail
served in the Peninsula, while mutilated as he then was.
On one occasion, when leading Lis regiment into battle, a
melee, as it was technically called, a mixture of contending
troops, took place, anal a French officer rude up to him,
with his sabre up-lifted, and about to cut him down. This
French officer, howcasr, saw that the Englishman had but
one arm, which held tho bridle. He dropped his paint ;
he rude on to seek an opponent with whom he could contend
on equal terms. That is the French feeling. (Cheers.) I
shall be told that this case is a proof of Austrian feeling.
But I do not believe any such thing. My coierictien is that
the cowardly conduct of that lieutenant who cut clown that
unarmed British subject, lass lilli with as touch disapproval
and disavowal on the part of his comrades in Tuscany, as in
that service they dare show. (Cheers.) I am persuaded,
If Marshal Itailetzkv had known the true facts of the case
at the time he gala the officer was fully justified, that a
brave man like the marshal would have sympathised with
Prince Scwarteenberg's feelings, who, when apidied to by
Lard Westmoreland—lend Westmoreland saying, " We
en bath soldier,' and neither of us, I am sure,
weeld have raised our swords against an unarmed
men"—responded and said " No ; such • thing could never
have happened to either of us." I am convinced that if
Marshal Itatletzky had known the teal circumstances of the
tons he would never have written what we find him to have
written in these papers. For whatever we may think of
the policy pursued by the Austrian government, no man
who knows the Austrian people and the Austrian army can
for a moment doubt their generosity and their personal
courage. (Cheers.) Well, then, here there was • direct
outrage committed. By whom? By an Austrian officer in
Florence. Who should he responsible? l'rinia facie, I
agree, the government of the country in which the out-
rage was cemmitted. But repeatability in the companion
of power. Those are responsible who could have
prevented or who could have punished ; but where there
is no power there can be no responsibility. Now the state
of that Austrian garrison is this—that they are in Florence
depending on the will of the Austrian government, and
not on the will of the Tuscan government. That is a
fact not for the first time known, by means of these
despatches, hut which the British government was
acquainted with anterior to these events. Were the
Austrian troops there araeaable to the Tuscan authorities ?
It is perfectly well known that they were not. In the
amuse of last autumn I heard of an insult
Which was offered by a detachment of Austrian
troops to members of the greed ducal family.
They were stopped in their carriage while taking
a drive in the neighbourhood of Florence; they were com-
pelled to get out of their carriage, and into that carriage
the soldiers put in their place a drunken conuadeetoo
drunk to walk into the town. What did the Tuscan go-
vernment do ; did it punish those men ? No ; it could not.
It was obliged to appeal to the Austrian Commander-in-
Chief, and the ruffian soldiers were punished militarily by
their own officers. Then, as it was known that the Tuscan
government had no power or authority over these Austrian
troops, it seems to me certainly, prima fuen, that the
Austrian government was the party of whom repara-
tion should lie demanded. That redress naturally was of
two kindle In the first place, I think the British govern-
ment ought to have demanded the punishment of the officer
—of whom, at least, this was known, that he, an armed Aus-
trian, had, like a coward, cut down an unarmed English.
man. The Austrian government, on that demand, might
have made a reply. No doubt they might have said,
" There are certain regulations of the Austrian service
which might make it imperative on the officer, under the
circumstances, to do what he did ; and if he hadn't done
so, we should have punished him." That might undoubt-
edly have been an aaswer. But it would have required
further explanation. The English government would have
been entitled to say, " Show us your regulations—we can't
take this simply on your statement." But if regulations
had been produced, bearing out the assertion, and if the Au-
strian government could have proved that the officer had no
alternative but to do what he did, then it would be nem-
sary to leave him to his own superiors ; and in that case I
admit that any large punishment of that officer could not
with propriety be premed. Still you would have a right to
my to the Austrian government " You may make what re-
gulations you like, provided they don't strike British 'ob-
jects ; but when a British subject suffers by your regula-
tions, which are unjust and improper, then we expect you to
make an apology to the British government for the injury
done to • British su iject." And, indeed, I would say,
from the handsome manner in which this affair has been
dealt with, so far as the Austrian government has been
concerned, I think a great and generous government
would have made that which would have been an accept-
able apology from one government to another. But, then,
I have a right to militias the conduct of the late govern-
ment t for wherein the noble lard who introduced
the subject 11Melk• IS the promat government
that they held see language at Planate and an-
other at Vienna, k may be returned on him
that the hats government, in making the esmonnication to
the government of Austria there were no lastreethins given
to Iced Weetmerelead with regard to say appileatica he
wee to make to theimvernment el Amain. The &spank
distinctly Meted .. I have no internalises to give you;^ and
accordingly no application was made t and hare, I=
an error wee committed. At this peeled the redress
have moulted of • demand it, compeasetion to the
individual injured, and that wadi lam been a peen&
ing borne mat by isnumarabis precedents in oases
that ham bqmsned. Yon may sai it is unfitting
that an kgmy to an individual ant the honour of
the orentry
_Mould be weighed in pomade sterling.
But, nevertheless, the ontesselon dash a ammunition is in
itmlf an ambits that 'tenement is due ; and it is perhaps
the only atoesmiat that sae be made to an individual who
has suffered severe bodily injuries. The last government, in
their first communication to Tuscany bonneted Mr. Bar-
lett to demand " ample reparation,"- ind summed the ex-
pectation of her Majesty's government that that
would be promptly given. But, then, it was to
be said what that reparation was to be; sad la
so far I think Mr. Searlett was left in a position Is whisk
sa agent of the government ought not be planed.
He was left to determine what should be the reparation;
be was not told whether it was to moist of an ,
dm punishment of the offender, or of mosey; I
eseseher, wee leaving too meek to his disoretioa. It m-
ails me, indeed, of a conversation I had net long age
win as osekelturist is the country. lie was lamenting,
like tbe mile enamels opposite, the unfortunate condition
of the heseere ; and, in reply to my question, " Well,
wine vault you do ? " he said, "Why, give the farmers
a fir temse. ' I rejoined, " Mow ? " and still he said,
'I eke him a fair chance "—immense that he was thus
onilloisetly daieribing the war My he wanted. (Orme
Inniebese.) la the same way the phew .. ample mew
gee^ was used ha air ems. It embed a tan esineetilie
fete same ladeliehe quantity. It was Me the I
et
Ea elgebeelsalprebbmwhich colon_ an nen le aeldai.
It.ma te me Oweelleve that the denead of eepanise
nay inn bass um* to the fine behmes, as the Thetas
The e-Aileasele swan te be medial,medial,elL.ll=4 .•
./
be dowended ought te be onsidnel Whew.
bawd"
_sad that sea bales dearraded the seveneased amid
to abide by it. (Her. bee.) I cow cane to the meant
penneet, awl the Nam adopted by them it, in my
ill mew spa le Winn an th that peened by
rlirt stgenrinmet, lieneee ley did what wee perfectly
ustorag—eimely. all ea the warns lannif to assess
W ewe denease. (Hear, ben) Se and not be it
proper Maim et what was • fit annesuation for himself.
(!leer.) That must &peed on the judgment of impartial
pineas, and on the opinion of the law advisers of the go-
vononsat. I think the noble lord the member for the City
of Leaden was borne out in the remarks ho made in refe-
roses to the government going to the Tuscan government
with a demand which they told them they considered to be
exorbitant. (blen) If the British government acted as
peacemakers between two foreign states of equal weight—
between France and Austria, for example—they might, as
mediators, convey to one the proposal made by the other.
If/kenos asked 5,0001., and if they thought it exorbitant, and
send eat persuade France to diminish the amount, althou r
itabe theiriluty, es eatitraton, to make known that e-
tkey would be bond by the impartiality which be-
to them as arblinleis to say, 'a This is the demand,
WI ere think it same Sam yes are called on to pay." But,
le re wander deemehmes of this ease, I outset under-
stand why the geosinstent communicated this to the Tema
ma as not endeavour to reduce • demand
=1.1116.11, andiffin exorbitant by evrannualeating with

'faking it in that light there was nothing exorbitant in his
demand of 4,0110/., but admitting that it was a mere qu. s-
tion of personal compensation, then a demand of 4,01101.
would be u.terly unreasonab'e. (Rear, hear.) Then the
noble lord commented a little, as he thought unfairly, on
the factuf various sums being mentioned at various times.
In one respect he must take the liberty of setting the noble
lord right. Tin. noble lord stated distinctly that Mr. Searlett
had nu orders to take fioo/., and nothing less, but that he
was told to get that if he could, and if he could not to take
41101.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No.
Lord STANLEY hail certainly understood the noble lord
to say that his nolVe friend had left a wise discretion to fix
a minimum, and afterwards disavowed his minister because
Le had gone below his price. )iow, Mr. &erica himself,
in page ff., of the papers, stated that his minimum was
fixed at 500'. lle did not wish to say one harsh word of
Mr. Scarlett, but it must be recollected that that gentleman
was suffering from ill health, and if in a very di licate and
difficult position he committed an error in judgment, he
should be dealt leniently with. But the real question,
which the noble lord had carefully avoided, was whether
Mr. Searlett had been disavowed by his noble friend for
taking 2201., with the release of two political prisoners,
whose release had been previously promised. Not for
either of these ree•ons had Mr. Scarlett been disavowed,
but because, in contravention of his instructions, he had
disclaimed that which it was the principal object of his noble
friend to assert, namely, the principle of the responsibility
of Tuscany.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Where is that stated?
Lord STANLEY referred the noble lord to the papers,
in which it was laid down distinctly that her Majesty's
government could nut sanction the recognition of Austria
in the matter.

Lord J. RUSSELL—Mr. Scarlett does not say that.
Lord STANLEY—Did not know what the noble lord
was driving at. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Stanley) was en-
deal-outing to show that it was not fur taking t 291. instead
of 500/., or the release of the political prisoners, that Mr.
Scarlett was disavowed, but for surrendering the important
principle which it was the object of the negotiations to esta-
blish. lie hail now gone through the principal charges
which had been directed against the department with
which he had the honour to be connected, and would no
longerdelay the house from the wider issue which the noble
lord had opened. llaving examined these papers minutely,
he could not find one sylkble that indicated that his noble
friend had shown innensibility to the right of British sub-
jects or the honour of the British crown. He thought that
the evidence completely justified his noble friend, and he
was contented to leave the issue in the hands of the house.
(Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE thought, if ever there was a question
which deserved to be considered by itself alone, it was the
case of Mr. Mather and the conduct of government re-
garding it; he, therefore, rather lamented that it had
been diluted, so to speak, by reference to extraneous
topics. There was no one in the house who would be
convinced, by an argument so lame, impotent, and °Re-
sided as that of the Under-Secretary for Foreign Af-
fairs, that the conduct of his official superior had not
been both unjust and unbecoming. By the convention
concluded between Austria and Tuscany in 1849, the
Austrian troops were not to be subject in any respect
to the tribunals or authorities of Tuscany. He regarded
the head sad front of the Foreign Secretary's offending to
have been that ho did not at once tail Austria to account,
for he thought that our national character and standing bad
been lowered by this petty haxtering with the Tuscan
government. In the true spirit of • 'pedlar, Lord Malmes-
, bury at oars asked Mr. Mather, "How mach will you
take for your injury?" When Mr. Mather named a men,
at Lord Idalmesbury's own request, the noble lord never
hinted to kW that he thought it too high ; but behind Mr.
Mather's back, and without saying a word to him, he wrote
a despatch to Mr. Searlett at Florence, characterising the
demand of 5,000/. as extravagant. At last he came down to
3001., acting probably on the 'slanted doctrine of eompro-
mile laid dews in the Prouder's 'pea at the Mansion-
house. What security had Mak subjects travelling
abased br their lires,-Isesser, ar Fogerty, when Lord
Malasebary used such lengsrgebe Ide despatches ? He
'Maid ever regret that the beda the member for Ti-
Terms, bad lei what was kb setund guides at the head
of oar beeign stain; bed he stM esetbened in rase,
we Rhoda have had new et these diggressfal disclaims
with the Teem seems,* as to lie Ids' of base&
These bed bees as if eiso ea the part
if the Austrims raid en be was ribs
shwa as the has ef the beak and the Melba
of lead Mahnesbury sod Lientesrat ForsthMer were now
being teased at the Marian nesse. The noble lord was
hoed, Ifer the credit of his mini try, if not of the country,
to have taken a higher teas se the saltiest, and bit sd ea
an caches inquiry into the bete being min Mr. See:-
lett seigbt be en amiable am but he was es *a tea inti-
mate Sens with the Anaheim essamsbee. The talinnity
of pupae maifested Waugh' s* Lard Mahumnbury's des-
patches was sash es MI sever boss serpsesed in any other
state. Re cab segretted that the ere had been mixed up
with any lessees of gestentise, owl that sine brae of the
house pseeseled his hem saving • direst Fie el seems
on Lard Ibiairshery fee hie meld= ebesensgesasat albs
ease, end the &listens he had thereby brought upon the 'b
rector if the esisetry.
The lbw& of ORANBY was anxious that the seuntry
WWI kayo what was taii real state of the quietism as to
the semsersiel policy of this country, with a view le their
dashass whether it was to be maLedaed or net. The
aside trod (Lord J. liestall) had bee, wry Wry ef his
bands= as to the questioa of direst Wades; the het
was that the ',guides vise afraid el eseriag
beams bey Issas that Moir polio had Maui Cr. el'
no hams" is the whisk was Is • eleb ef
—seirbw be the missies re the=
Ware& be be the meiedhsbeees. be
lacked emit as la a Fist
4.irse &Maus. be noes= el area sad
sapeets bruise se misguide ariteden. It was
inspsetentb asesetela wheats" the laser deems
had sa lIIIIIMISI Fagan, el hod et their essisrad Wee
the in the- ens laws. He esieslated that the in-
creased of wheat Sate 11141 had been 3,400,000
riearreleseeisa the decreased predmetien im the United
led bees 3,900,000. The demand in
)el esereding to Capt. Isrewes Ybeen
LIMAS quarters, and in Seem& it was at
2ttllebit iiiiesmarten. It might be tree that in Imp berm
had benefited by the change, bet in sissy
, disable ef the 'sentry the fact was anteriesdy the muse.
=lament refund to restore rowdies, =was" either
the burdens that pressed upon the Wises or
, parapet@ a great injustice.

- Cued PALMERSiON said—Sir, it Is net my intention
to law the noble lord who has just sat down into a com-
parison between the relative merits of the measures
of frac, trade and the blessings of protection,
between the comforts of cheap food and abundant
enbsietence, and the blessings of the high prices of earn
and the other concomitants of the system of which the noble
toed is the advocate. I took, indeed, upon all discussions
of this question as an idle waste of the time of this house.
(Chosen.) Your principle of protection is dead—dead : and
you cannot resuscitate it. (Loud elteen.) I rely, like the
noble marquis, upon the good sense and sound judgment of
the country ; and I am quite sure that the country will act
the part of a registrar-general, and that at the neat elee-
I don the death and interment of this venerable principle of
protection will be duly and universally registered. (Lend
sheen.) I wish to address sense few observations to that
which was the tint topic of the speech of the noble
lard, and from which the noble marquis has led the
home by what may in some respects be a convenient
digronien. (Hest, bear.) I certainly mast confess that
I have read with anything but feelings of satisfaction the
papers laid upon the table in respect to the affair of the
Nathan— (cheen) ; and I own, that for the character of
the country I should wish the whole of that correspon-
denee to be buried in oblivion. (Cheers.) I am concerned
to say, that that feeling on my part applies to the whole of
the correspondence, from beginning to end. (Cheep.) For
I must own, that it seems to me that it was throughout
not a comedy, but a tragedy of " All in the Wrong."
(Cheers.) I cannot help saying, that I Sad much to criti-
cise in the conduct of almost all the parties concerned ex-
cept Kr. Mather and his son. (Cheers.) I think the
late imminent took a wrong view. (Cheers and " Hear.")

Mr. Mather. (Hear, hear.) I therefore think that the
present government are open to ci iticiam in this respect.
Meer.) I am sorry to say I cannot approve of the eon-
duct of Mr. Searlett, because he went even below the
minimum of WM , although he was told that the lowest
sum to he taken was 510 e, and that if be could not get that I
he was to propose arbitration. But he accepted even less I
than half. (Hear.) But then the two Mr. Struffords were I
thrown in to make up the difference, and this was con-
sPercil to be nut nu unfair urrengement. Hut the accuse- I
lion brought against the Mr. Strafford, was an offence—
namely, tint they had in their house • private print-
ing press, and it wee ',hewn that they printed deem. 1
meets of a y against the government for
the purpose et distributing them. (Hear, hear.)
They incurred, therefore, the liability of punishment, but I
when they were tried before an Austrian court martial at
Leghorn, the late government, of which 1 was then a mem-
ber, protested eeriest the competency of the court. We
consulted the law adviser of tho crown, and we found that
the Tuscan government had not itself the power of trying a
private person before a court martial, and mach less could
the Austrian government have such a right in the Tuscan
territory. We pretested, therefore, both at Florence
and at V knee, against the competency of the
court, and against the validity of the sentence. That
protest we iesisted on, and it was admitted that the two
young men ought tribe liberated, in consequence of the in-
competency of the court, and the invalidity of the sentence.
(Hear, liver.) The throwing them into the bargain, there-
fore, was no pre sidiefaction to Mr. Mather, fur we should
hale end thins if Mr. Mather's case had not occurred at all.
(Ilear, hear.) Mr. Scarlett, therefore, in my
opinion, acted unwisely and hastily, and I humbly
think that her Majesty's government ucted hastily
and nut wisely in sanctioning that arrangement
when it was first communicuted to them. (Hear, hear.)
They seemed to be under the impression that whatever a
foreign agent does, although it may be contrary to his in-
struction'. it must necessarily be adopted by the govern-
ment. This view is not in accordance with international
principles, for if a government can show that an agent has
acted at variance with his instructions, it is at perfect liberty
to disavow him, and t s refuse to sanction his acts.
(Hear, hear.) The government, therefore, would be
perfectly justified, in the present instance, in
refusing to agree to the arrangement made by Mr. Seas Lett.
(Hear, hear.) I confess if a pecuniary compensation were
to be demanded, whether from the Tuscnu government or
the Austrian government, the sum of 5001. seems to mu to
he inseificient fur the sufferings of the individual, or
atonement due from one country to another. (Ileac,
hear.) I don't think the demand ought to be
reduced to the insignificant sum of .5001. (Hear, hear.)
But the government having adopted that arrangement, and
having consented to accept 5001. and the two Mr. Stratford+
—(laughter)-1 think they acted with great haste, and
upon an imperfect examination of the documents,when they
dims' need Mr. Scarlett's last despatch, on the ground that
he had abandoned the responsibility of the Tuscan govern-
meet. (Hear, hear) Mr. Searlett did no such thing. (fear,
hear.) Mr. Scarlett did not abandon the principle of
that responsibility ; he merely waived the discussion of it.
So far from abandoning the principle of responsibility, lie
reaffirmed that principle M his despatch of the 11th of
April ; for when the Duke of Cantiglione came to make the
final arrangement, he sought to reserve the principle of the
non-responsibility of the Tuscan government ; but Mr.
Searlett in his reply says that he will accept the offer of
money and the two Mr. Straffords—(laughter)—but in re-
gard to the non-responsibility of the 'ruscan govern.
meet, he refers to his note of tho 18th of March,
in which it is laid down as the principle of
the British government that you aro responsible, and that
they will maintain that responsibility in al its integrity.
(Hear, hear') I am at a loss, therefore, to understand how
he could be said to have abandoned the principle of re-
sponsibility which he there maintains in its full integnty.
(Hear, hear.) I think Mr. Stirlen is to be blamed fur the
way in which the money and the two Mr. Stratfords were
accepted as an atonement. The Tuscan government said
" We give you this sum, but we give it you as an act of
generosity on our part, and we deny our responsibility, and
we say that in similar cases we will not make good any
injury which may be done to British subjects." I think
the more handy way of dealing with the case would be to
say, "we will take the money, and whatever you may say
about non-respon-ibility, we will make you remember that
you aro responsible ; we will compel you to give adequate
compensation, and we do not care a pin for
your saying that you are not responsible." (Hear,
hear.) We should say you are responsible, and
we will make you responsible. (Hear, hear.) I think
if something of this kind—not expressed, perhaps, in this
language—(laughter)—but if something equivalent, which
would be equally w.II understood by the party—were said,
it would nut lead to any breaking off of diplomatic inter-
course. When persons were formerly brought to the bar of
this house to make an apology they were on their knees—but
that was no longer required, and it was taken standing.
I should not wish to have diplomatic relations broken off
with the Tuscan or any other government, but the Tuscan
government evidently thinks the.. to hold diplomatic rela-
tMns with them is of more importance than, I am sure, it is
considered by any person in this country. (Laughter.) If
unfortunately it should ever happen that the diplomatic
relations should bo broken off between the two
governments, that is a circumstance which, however
it may be regretted, I think this country may survive.
(Laughter.) I agree with her Majesty's government
in thinking it • matter of great importance to preserve the
independence of the Tuscan government, but I cannot well
understand how it is maintaining that independence when
we compel Tuscany to pay fur something which is
done by another country. (Hear, hear.) It is making
Tuscany the whipping. boy. of Austria. (Hear, hear)
I &sire, sir, to see the - of Tuscany, and

doubt Austria would have been very williog that we should
have sought in this instance reparation fr.m her, us it I
would have been a virtual acknowledgment of her supre-
macy
in Tuscany. (Hear, hear.) It would have been very
agreeable for Austria that we should, without difficulty,
have treated Tuscany as a mediatised power. But that is
not part of the policy which her Majesty's ministers wish
to maintain with reference to Italy. 1 think the noble lord
(Palmerston) has treated this subject in a manner more
sup..rticial than becomes one who is so well acquainted a ith
it. I think he might have foreseen that, under some cir-
cumstances, the power of holding Tuscany respon-
sible in this controversy, might be of very great
importance to England, and that the time might
come, and circumstances might arise. —if Austria
retained and wanted to retain her position in Tuscany—
when it might be of the greatest importance to England to
show herself in the ports of Tuscany in a manner which
might considerably influence the decisiun of Austria on
subjects of very great importance. But if, in the first in-
stance of a misunderstanding taking place—because a con-
vention has been cut red into between Tuscany and Austria
which we have never recognised nor acknowledged—we are
to say practically, " Henceforth Tuscany is only a province
of the u•trian empire, and we must go to Vienna for re-
dress for injuries received in Tuscany "—that is a doctrine
I could not sanction ; and I am sure it would nut be sane
tinned by the ruble lord if ho were in a more responsible
position. (Hear, hear.) At any rate, it does not seem that
the late government acted on that principle ; and 1 think
they were wise in the course they took. But we were not
idle at Vienna. Though we did not officially call upon
Austria to make reparation, we exereieed that influence we
possessed at that court in a manlier which was calculated to
facilitate and accomplish a friendly awl satisfactory result.
I say nothing of Mr. Mather, further than that lie was a rev-
peciable Englishman, placed under circumstances of great
difficulty, circumstances which, from his previous habits of
life, he had had little experience of. Ile appears to have
conducted himself with discretion and good sense; and
any attempt to criticise his conduct or his language, would,
I think, be wanting both in taste and good feeling.
(Ilear, hear.) But when I am told that the Secretary of
State has sent for Mr. Mather, and proposed a pecuniary
' indemnity to settle the affair, I am bound, in justice to my
colleague and to the government, to say that that is a state-
merit which gives to the house and the country an impres-
sien which is not very accurate, (Hear.) There is no
appearance, in the paper we have placed on the
table, of such an incident. There is a state-
ment by Mr. Mather, which 1 do nut wish to
criticise ; but I beg the house to view the case as men of the
world and members of parliament, and they will easily un-
derstand that, at an interview between Mr. Mather and the
Secretary of State, such a subject might have been brought
up and entered into with perfect propriety, on the part of
the minister, and on the part of the gentleman who was
complaining against the conduct of a foreign power. I have
here the minute made by Lord Malmesbury after the inter-
view with Mr. Mather. 1 shall not read that minute, he-
cause its contents might introduce into this debate ill-
feeling, which I do not wish to encourage, or might hurt
the feelings of individuals not present ; but I say most dis-
tinctly that, on that occasion, Lord Malmesbury did no-
thing and said nothing but what any of his predecessors
might, and probably would, have said ; and, without the
slightest reflection on Mr. Mather, I must say that the ques-
tion was treated in a natural and proper manner, and in a
manner quite distinct from what has been conveyed by this
discussion, and in some statements which I have seen. Two
points were then discussed,—the reparation due to
the country for injury done to a subject of her Majesty, and
the:reparation due to the individual suffering. Lord Malmes•
bury very properly cut the first subject short. He said—
" The honour of the country is under my custody, there-
fore we need not converse about that ; hut it is my duty
frankly and sincerely to confer with you upon the means by
which some reparatidh may be made to your injured son.
(Hear, hear.) The:efore they naturally came to the mode,
which is the only mode in which reparation could be made.
I hear great delicacy expressed about a man taking money
where an outrage of this kind has been committed. Why,
it is the only mode recognised in this country by which a
reparation can bo made. Why, gentlemen, in this country,
on subjects in which their most delicate hanour is concerned,
appear before courts, and accept pecuniary damages.
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Does anybody suppose,
when damages are tendered under such circumstances, that
they are offered as a reparation for the wrong complained
oft They arc offered because that is the mode by which,
according to the custom of this country, a certain punish-
ment can be inflicted upon the person who has done
the injury, and at the same time a certain
reparation offered to the person who is injured.
Aud to pretend that there is anything novel or monstrous
in recommending that an individual in the position of Mr.
Mather, who has suffered as he has suffered at Florence,
should accept as an avowed acknowledgment fur a wrung
inflicted by a government of a fine from that government,
is a proposition which I think few on reflection would
attempt to substantiate, and which I am sure the common
sense of this country would not for a moment entertain.
First, then, as to the quarter in which we applied for re-
dress, and which the noble lord (Palmerston), notwith-
standing the many ingenious observations he made, would
not, as a statesman learned in international law, for a
moment unequivocally deny MSS the right quarter; and,
secondly, as to the mode in which that satisfaction was
to be obtained from that power. I maintain that the
conduct of the government was perfectly proper. Then I
am told by the hon. member (Mr. Osborne) that Lord
Malmesbury showed great infirmity of purpose. I see no
infirmity of purpose • for I find in his despatches he is con-
sistent in trying to Obtain the same end ; and in kis very
find letter to Sir Henry Bulwer, of the 26th of April, he
doling him not to remit in any manner the principle
hick the demands - • made. Mr " writie

- independence IP .-
thole papers called attention to the unfortunate state of a
large portion of the Italian peninsula. (Hear, hear.) The
Italian people were endowed with great and eminent quali-
ties; they possessed great intellectual ability, and when the
opportunity was afforded they produced men who, as states-
men and warriors, were as full of capacity as those of easy
part of Europe. (Hear, hear.) I apprehend it is
bteause they have not had this opportunity of late
years that Italy did not produce such eminent aces.
It is lamentable to see the state of Tuscany, of the German
States, and of Naples. (Hear, hear.) In these states the
greatest misgovernment prevails, end when Austria is re-
fer the condition of Italy, she draws a comparison
that part of Italy which is under her control and
osaditios of the people in those states which I have
mentioned ; but like the gentleman from the sis-
ter idled, who ordered his bootmaker to make
him two pair of boots one pair to be larger than the other,
aid then complained that instead the man had made him
ene pair mal.da than the other—(laughter)—the Austrian
Ce=omit sot to say that the part of Italy under
ree better off than the other parts, bat that the
ether park of Italy were wore! off than that which she e

upon which toe are . .-e. !r. Scarlett, writing
is the 23rd April, states that no objection had been made
to the mount of 6001. which he had fixed positively as the
mialnuint of compensation. Yet, under those circumstances,
the 6emaLrf of State still instructing the minister, who he
then arrived at Florence, Sir H. Bulwer,
=lmre:L
receiving information that the compensation fixed on
had ben agreed to—suddenly be finds that the whole
alremmetasees are changed, that the principle is given up,
that a much less compensation is accepted. The noble lord
gays we are in error in supposing that Mr. Scarlett waived
the principle of responsitility ; but he dispensed with what
the Secretary of State required should be an acknowledg-
ment of that principle ; that was the great compensation by
the Tuscan government. It it was a question between
2601. and 6001. that would certainly not be an object which
would justify our having recourse to the measures that have
been recommended. It wu because the great object was
not attained—that object being, in our mind, not merely
this particular instance, but having reference to circum-
stances that may exercise a great influence over the state of
Europe, and on this account we required and desired this ac.
knowledgment of responsibility, with which we should have
beenjustifted in ' • the saw that has been -
-s the -

hu quoted as if they were words from my own mouth•
But if the consequence of our legislation—and I take
it only as an incident—is a considerable diminution of the
rents of the country—if it can be shown that there is a prt s-
care of taxation upon the land which is nut shared by the
other great properties of the country, —I am not wishing to
enter into an argument—l am only assuming the facts, to
notice what I consider to be the misrepresentation of the
noble lord—l say that, assuming what I have said,
there is a legitimate claim fur the proper:y the values
of which is depreciated, and which can be shown t 3 be un-
justly taxed, for redrew, and relief. (Cheers.) The noble
lord has also stated that ho is not aware, although I have
referred to the groat tlibige that the present government
has done (and of which I was not couecious that I had), that
we have really done anything of any consequence except
the passing of the Militia Bill—which he cou'd not pass.
(Loud laughter) " What," says the noble lord, "ie the
Militia Bill P—l make you a present of that; and the next
great measure on which you plume yourselves so much,
you only stole it from our commission ; and when you intro-
duced it, you made such changes iii it, that, had it not been
for my trusty friend the right hon. member for Tiverton,
you would have marred all its beauties.' (Laughter)
But if these bills fur the reform of Chancery
pats, they will in my mind confer ono of the
greatest blessinge which society has experienced ;
and no matter who may be the minister and what may be
the parliument—neither the parliament nor the minister
that pest it will be forgotten. (Loud cheers.) But thrro
is something more. I remember that on the 15th of March,
when the noble lord appeared in the new opposition of
which lie was the recognised leader, he cone forward and
said, that it was incumbent on me to declare the measures
which it had been thought neceiwary to pus ; sod when I
mentioned that measure of Chancery reform in the eata-
!ogee of those I meant to try, the noble lord received the
intimation with a derisive scoff. (Cheers.) Ito was
supported by all the seething of that new opposition, and,
more than all, by that section which, though the bellowing
is small, make up for bulk of numbers by their fidelity—by
those that billow the noble lord the member for Tiverton,
who Said that lie trusted the country would not be em-
barked in a Chancery suit. (Laughter.) W. 11, there is a
prolseet of that bill being carried ; hut I do not claim any
great credit for it, except that when a chanee was offered us
to do this great good to the country we did it, in epite of
the noble lord the member for Tiverton. (Loud cheers.)
" Wi II then," says the noble lord, there is another subject
of great importance. Be eider equivocel conduct with
respect to the agricultural interests--besides the false
plumage with which you have arrayed yourself, besides
your false reform, you have troubled and disturbed
everything, you have acted in a most wiconstitetiontil man-
ner, in tampering with the great quo stion of education."
(Hear, hear.) Now. what have we done to arouse all this
indignation on the part Mete noble lord, and all those
mournful questions which, with almost a bnilsen heart,
have leen addressed to us by the hon. nu tuber for
Chichester ? (Laughter.) I am here to defend the con-
duct of the government. The noble lord rays that for
party—nay, for a higher object—for hustings purposes,
we have been tampering with the established system
of education. (Cries of " Hear ! hear !") Yes, yon
shall hear. (Cheers and laughter.) The noble lord
cannot hear of education and religion being used for
party purposes. Does he remember the nypropriation
clause i (Cheers.) lie abrades with horror from the repe-
tition of such mancouvres ; but the noble lord has bail recourse
to the same unjustifiable course. (Hear, hear.) It seetans
that there have been certain management clauses issued by
the Committee of I'rivy Council on Education, and laid on
the table to-night; and I think that the noble lord had
better have read them before he delivered his speech this
evening. (Hear, hear.) But it is not true that we have
altered the management clauses. They remain but, con-
sistently with the opinion we have always held, we have
ventured, in two instances, to offer an alternative to those
who would not accede to the management clauses, which
we have not disturbed, and which are still the clauses of
the committee of council. Well, if this alternative is one
of which the house disapproves, it will take means
to express its feeling ; but confident I um, not
only that every person who is interested in the
church of England, bat that everybody who is sensible of
the value of justice in public Wane, will approve of them.
(Cheers.) We are charged with having taken the vote, and
then having introduced a new system. But what are the
facts ? The first management clauses., A, 11, C, and D,
were dated on the 28th of June, 1847; and the vote
(100,0000 was taken on the '26th of April. (Loud cheer,)
The clauses themselves did not appear until they appeared
in a blue hook, six months afterwards. (Cheers.) In 1819
there were some important alterations made in these clauses.
They were signed on the 26th of May. It is true that the
vote (!2.,,0001.) was not passed till June 1, but the clauses
were never laid on the table till they appeared in a blue
book in the month of the next January. In feet, with the
sole exception of the year when the pupil teachers were
introduced, they were never laid on the table before the
vote was taken. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord must not
expect to shrink under the gaberdine of Lord Lansdowne.
Within the last eighteen months there had been important
alterations r hating to Homan catholic', presbytcri-no, and
Jews, but these were never eubinitted to narliament• (Hear,
hear.) The charge is one that affects our character
not only as ministers, but as gentlemen, and I trust that
such conduct will never be that of any government from
whatever side it may be recruited. (Loud cheers.) If 1
thought that we had taken advantage of the Ilouse of
Commons—if I thought we had cheated the people through
the representatives of money to support a system which
they looked upon with dislike—l should have conceived
that there was spirit enourli in the house, even
at this peorid of the session, to have expressed
their reprobation of such conduct. (Loud cheers)

The noble lord may be enured that we thsll go to the
country, with no undue confidence I trust, but at least in
such a manner as will allow us to meet the people without
shame ; and whatever the noble lord may gay of the change
of our opinions, I shallbe prepared to vindicate them be-
fore my constituents, in a manner that 1 trust will entitle
me to maintain their good opinion. I deny that there has
been at any time since the unfortunate year 1816, the circum-
stance of which I deeply deplore, I deny that there has bees
any attempt on our part to change the position which we thin
took. I look now, and shall over look, on the change.
which took place in 1846, both so regards the repeal of the
corn laws and the change in the sugar duties—l shall
always look upon those measures es totally unauthorised.
(Cheers.) I opposed them, as most of my friends around
me opposed them, from fear and apprehension of the suf-
ferings which those changes would produce : and that suf-
fering, though it may be limited to particular classes,
has been far greater than wo anticipated. I deny
that after these laws were paned I, or throe with whom I
have acted, have wished to recur to the same laws which
regulated those industries. (Cheers.) I cannot recall a
speech—l defy anyboq to rote any speech that I ever

_...er parts 1)6 ...-ty were MOM
OnMau tam. ... ..--. ___, go- . -. In tairzig the sum.- - accepted. But, made, or any ienteice that f ever tittered, in which I re-
?coned. (Hear, hear.) I believe there never was such an says .___. noble lord (Palmerston), " what could possibly commended such a course as desirable or possible. What
example of such a sytem of misgovernment, of illegality, of have induced the English minister to let the Tuscan go. is your charge against Lord Derby ? You say he recom-
violenoe, and abuse of power, as that which now prevailed vernment know that Mr. Mather had fixed upon 6,0001., mended • fixed duty, and that now he has intimated
in Naples and the Roman States. (Hear, hear.) It is • and at the same time to acknowledge that the sum was ex- that the country will not support such a policy.
disgrace to modern Europe. (Cheers.) In Tuscany things orbitant ?" The reason is vim obvious. The object of Is • fixed duty a recurrence to the law which regulated the
are not so bad, but people were exposed there to acts of the government was to obtain, if not a considerable, an importation of corn before 1846 ? Why, if my Lord Derby
licentious violence from • foreign pennon, for which there ample compensation for the sufferer, not with reference to had declared that he counselled a recurrence to those laws
was no redress and • state of things enred and was sub- the vindication of the national honour, but as a compensa- do not you think you would be ever ready to refer to his
added to which, if It happened in this country, would rouse don to Mr. Mather for the gross insult, and by way of tic speeches, and that night after night you would din your
the indignation cf every man in the country. France knowledument on the part of those who had committed the quotations in our ears? I defy you to produce a single
occupied Rome and Austria occupied Tuscany, and the injury. The views of the Italians with regard to compen- sentence of the kind. When we come to this
legations, and one would not leave till the other had left. sation are very different from what are entertained in this question of a fixed duty, on which you have
They were told that this state of things would end in May, country ; and it certainly was not indiscreet to let the talked so much, I say I will not pin my career, my
but May was anticipated hy December. May has now Tuscan government know that Mr. Mather demanded political career, on what is not a principle hut • measure.
passed. I therefore entreat her Mejesty's government to 5,0001., although the government was not prepared to lane- I should be very glad as a financier if there was a moderate
siert their influence on this subject, sad in favour of don such a sum, which they knew it would be quite im- fixed duty au corn. I admit that, and I see plenty of great
as interesting and intelligent people. It is said that disturb- practicable to obtain. Of course, the Tuscan government, authorities opposite me who have often and often advocated
aneeswouldtakeplueittheseforeigntroopswerewithdrawn, hearing of that amount, would be more prepared, it. But if I find by circumstances which I do not wish now
but I askthe house to recollect what took place in 1831 and were more prepared, to offer the 6001., which particularly to describe—(ironical cheers)—by acts which
and 1832, when the sovereigns of Italy were advised to they ultimately did; for that was the sum I have no wish now to denounce, that • fiscal pro-
make oostessions to the people of the five great powere-- they consented to give, till that remarkable change took position is invested with a peculiar odium, that it
Francs, England, Russia, Prussia. and Austria. If those place in the negotiations. I do not think it is ne- would be one of the nnwiseat things a minister could do to
coneessions were yielded, Ido not believe the present state conary to say more upon the subject that is before the propose such a tax, whether rightly or wrongly, I cannot
of things could exist ; and I think that her . 'esty's go- house. It ku been introduced by the noble lord the see that lam bound to propose it. Why, I could offer
vernment may attempt something of the kin now. If member for the City, the head of a government which authorities in favour of duties on corn, not from my own
they took it up in the spirit in which lam sure they are in my opinion is greatly responsible for the affair bench, but from writings you perpetually quoted—men
disposed to do, great good would follow from their inter- in which Mr. Mather is so much concerned. (Cheers.) whose political opinions entirely agree with yours, listin-
ftrenoe. (Cheep.) The affair is a painful one, beeauso every one must feel for guished writers, members of the political economy club,
one of our fellow-subjects when he is intend, and when he not merely the writings of Mr. M'Culloch, and whom once
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am ex. ie one of such tender years, and who appears to have be- you always quoted, though now you shrink from his
tremely glad that in the coulee of this debate we have been hayed with such good feeling throughout the whole trans authority, but to the writings of Col. 'forrens, to the pages
favoured with the opinion of the noble lord (Palmerston) action. (Cheers.) But it is not a question on which, even of Mr. Mill, I might appeal to scientific pages, and you
the member for Tiverton. On these subjects the noble lord with an impending dissolution, you can impeach a govern- would find it difficult to quote others against me. But in
(Cheers.) No one knows that better than the noble governing mankind we must look to something beyond,
is a very high authority ; and I am sure that the temper .ino;:iit"
i the member for the City himself—(cheers)—because mere scientific propriety ; and if a measure, though it may
and tone with which he treated the question to-night will after due reflection, when the subject bad been certainly be recommended by the highest scientific authority, is one
lend additional influence to the opinion he has expressed. announced, if not upon the paper, the noble lord added • that the popular will repudiates, I do not think that any
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord, we have been informed by very interesting postscript to what was announced to:the minister is bound to p.opose it. But what is this mes-
the noble lord (Russell), the member for the City of Lon- house. (Laughter.) I must not follow the amiable example sure which you seem always wishing us to propose ?
of the noble lord the Under Secretary of State for which you with such anxious wishes seem so :vetoes that
don, is a very high authority, because be understands the Foreign Affairs, who left it unnoticed ; nor can I leave we should introduce ? It is, after all, nothing but • coon-
business of the department in questicm. (Hear, hear.) One the reply entirely to my noble friend the member for tervailing duty, not merely viewed in its financial light ; it
is rather tempted to ask the noble lord (Russell) why, Stamford. (Laughter.) lam bound myself to notice the is a countervailing duty against certain inequalities of
seder such circumstance', he turned the noble lord out ? elaborate attack of the noble lord. The noble lord has taxation. And if you can remove those inequalities of tax-
taken a review of what has occurred during the brief pe- tion, and redress the fiscal injuries and injustice which you
(Cheers.) When he contrasts the abilities of his Foreign nod that we have at on these benches. We have heard believe to exist, without having recourse to an odious
Beare with the Foreign Secretary whose conduct we from him a statement of that kind before this session. means, but by • means which is not odious, why I think
have now to defend, we cannot forget theremarkable einem- The very first night that I had the honour to take my seat that we are acting in strict consistency with all that we
stances under which the two noble lords separated. (Hear.) the noble lord rose, and opened his batteries. (Laughter, have said ; that we are acting in perfect unison with all
These eases, in which an individual injury—if I may use and " Hear, hear.") The noble lord has sometimes re- that we have counselled, if we adopt the course which we
curled to the attack, but his drum has been muffled, and think preferable, and which we believe to be popular.
the expression—is experienced in a foreign country by one his fire has been slack. (Laughter, and " Hear, hese.") Why session after session, at the desire and with the *ano-
n her Majesty's subjects, although not so important at the And now we have his last effort, but I believe that it is don of my friends, I have repeatedly urged upon this
outset as those in which the nationality of the country is • forlorn hope, and that he will not take the citadel. (Ile- house a variet of means, all of the same character, by
concerned, are really, from that very circumstance, the newel laughter.) Amongst other documents he has which this result might be obtained,without having recourse
most difficult and most troublesome eases to deal with. criticised an address which 1 have recently is- to this unpopular method, which you in your secret heart
The nationality of the country was not. at all concerned: and sued to my constituents, and he would Reek seem so anxious to have recourse to. Is it anything incon-
, althosigh it was an outrageous, wanton, and cruel act, still, as to convey to the house that I have declared 'latent in me or in those with whom I act, that we should now
I Lord Mahnesbury very properly said, It was an accidental that the abated corn laws were only passed in order to counsel that course which for four years, and against great
one. And I was quite surprised at the elaborate manner Pa, rent. ear, hear.) I wish the noble lord, who has obstacles, we supported r Our wish is that the into rests
i
lie which the noble lord (Russell) attempted to show, by the read many extracts from despatches (though with the con- which wo believe were unjustly treated in 1846, should
use of these two epi•hets, that there was inconsistency in text they convey to me a very different impression from receive that justice that they deserve with as little injury
Ithe language of the Secretary of State. in my opinion the that which he sought to convey)—but I wish he had done to others as is possible fur human wisdom to devise. I call
words are perfectly consistent, and they clearly and accu- me the honour to quote from my address any passage that it reconciling the interest of the consumer and the producer
rately deseribe the Insult. Then we are told we did not would have supported that stateownt• (Hear, hear.) I when you have not permitted the consumer to flourish by
I apply for redress, in the right quarter ; that we ought not have stated, and am always ready to say, that the laws that placing unjust taxes on the producer, while at the
ito have gone to Tuscany, but toAustria for redress. 1 shall are passed with the view of maintaining rent are laws that same time you are resolved to support nu tax which
not defend the conduct of the government by reference to cannot be tolerated. (Cheers.) But I have never would give to the producer an unjust and artificial price for
that of Lord Granville, or, snyother minister ; whether right said that the corn laws were passed with that his production. These are the views which we supported
or wrong, it was founded on principles they had adopted
object—(cheers)—and I must do the noble lord in opposition—these are the views which we are resolved, if
after the most mature deliberation and anxious inquiry. In the justice to add that he never said it. But hon. gentle- ,masible. to carry into effect. It is but justice to those
I our opinion if there be a state which maintains diplomatic men have said it every night of their lives, and therefore it classes to whom you acted unjustly in 1846, and we wish to
relations with her Majesty, with those public rights then was in reply to them that I wrote the acute re to which do justice to them without altering the system which now
mast be correlative dates; and it was our opinion that the noble lord seems in a very mistaken manner to refer. prevails. I believe the country will support these
as Tuscany is recognised and treated by us as an (Cheers.) I say that laws passed to maintain the amount news-1 believe that that temperate policy will
Independent state, an outrage to a British sub-
of rent paid in this country cannot be tolerated, hut, at the be ratified by the country. The noble lord the
jest in Tuscany ought to be brought before the notice
same time, laws that iutlict upon the land of this country member fur the City of London talks of our being
of the Tuscan government. The noble lord (Palmerton)burdens, and imposts, and regulations, which other pin • party without a principle. Well, he seems to be in oppo-
has done justice to the courtesy which, throughout the Pertand other industries donut bear, ate equally twined salon without a cry. (Cheers.) He confesses that oohing
business, has been exhibited by the Austrian government. flab. (Loud cheers.) If lat any time have recommended lis left—no opinion, no movement, no agitation whatever is
He says they behaved with great sympathy and considers-
a revision of taxation with • view to equalise the I left. The noble lord, with the imagination of • port—fee
ties, and asks why we did not go at once to the stronger
burdens on the land, I have never recommended such a I he is still a poet, at his last gasp, to my great sorpoise, die.
power which virtually emonsitted this outrage. I have no measure as • compensation for rent, which the noble lord covered a resource—something we must rift round iwe til
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