The Express.
London, England, 1862-03-26 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 26, 1862.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LOADS.-T I DAf, 31Anou 25.
TM Low Casaculea took h s upon the 'metal&
el SAM*.

PETITION:4,
A peat MIMI., of petition% irz:iin.t tire revise 4
c. ale
presmmted ley the Earl of Derby. Viscount Dominants+, Lord
Lord Colvil'e, Lord Kingsdowe, the Bishop of
iVorersterr. Lord Calthorpe, the Marquis of Bath. Lord
'Myeloid, the Esrl of Doyen, and Led Iledeol4lv.
I .onl iuGgstin on alto preseeted f rot 0 Hang-wad
arid Yarmouth wins" opeuiug of thettres in Holy
Week ; Lord Derby from the Eaglish Cloireh mon spinet
the quelificatioe for Ireland
Bill the Marque of Nor
mob, bow • place ia Ireland on the subject of the Poor-
her Still, kr.
MR JOHN BOANE'S lICSEU M BILL.
TIM Duke of BUCKINGHAM moved the secood reading
ef this bill.
Lord OVERSTONE was far from opposing the bill, but
be thought it well deserting of the serious consideration of
their lordships. If be understood its object aright, it was
to enable the trustees of one of the public museums in this
totem to Mil seine of their choicest treater., to the Great
Eshibitioe which would be bold this yen* at Kensington.
If it was proper that they should do so, it was equally
pr,per that the trustees of other museums should follow
Sir a example ; hut it seemed to him uoreamonable, at a
Mine when an unusual number of foreigners and persons
Item the conotrylsrouM be resorting to the metropolis,
that its public isetitutions should be denuded of their chief
attractions. Besides, although the ailmimion to Sir J. Sueae's
Museum was -object to restrictious, with a view to confine
it to persons whose real object was study, it was to such
perms gratuitous. That, however, would not be the case
with the exhibition at Kensington. He believed that a
s miler request hail bees made to the trustees of the National
Gallery, mad that those geutleruen had wisely considered
that the time would be peculiarly inopportune w allow
any of the treasures of art which they possessed to be
stinured from their own walls. (Hear.)
dart GRANVILLE could easily understand the feeling
which had induced the Wartime of the National Gallery to
refuse the application ; and if it was likely that any number
of pers.os would resit Sir J. Soanies Museum in 'the course
of the coming season he would admit that the bill would
be objectionable. But when their lordship reflected that
the number of persons who visited it last year was only
ttrin. while those who would go to the Greet Exhibition
mii„dit be , feinted by millions. they would probably think it
more advisable to snow the Howarth, and GainsLoroughe
in the former museum to be removed to South Kensington,
especially at a time like the present, whew they mast all
dsruc to show off British art to it; zreatest advantage.
The bill was then reel a second time.

POLAND.

The Earl of CARNAtifON 'VW, to call attention to the
regent state of Poised, met to inquire of her Majesty's
govereineet whether Primes Oortchakors circular latter of
the 90th Muth, had been communicated to them. The
soldelord hoped the gravity of recent events would bethought
by their lordahi peasullicient justification for bringing for we rl
the yoestieu, a question which be believed wee one of the
good liflicult sad the most delicate that could be submitted
to either home of parliament. Of Poland two pictures bad
ennetisatly been drawn. Os the cue hand they were per.
ritual), reminded of the tesbultwice, the corruption, and
the, organised anarchy marked the decline of Polish
indereedimos ; and were told that the Poles were too
often found acting as agents of democracy, and soon-
times even skating le its worst excesses. On the other
hand, he would be a very cold man that could not feel
some sympathy for a high-spirited and pliant people, who.
in spite of extraurilinary affliction* and unparalleled national
trials, had tever for one moment been shaken in their coot.
see. their constancy, and their devotion to their country.
(Cheers). It, did not wish, however, to put their case be-
fere the house as a matter of 'empathy. he would put it
,ether as a matter of interest—of interest to Europe
at large. As far as he had studied the question he did not
believe that the Polish teatime w..s at the present time ripe
for entire imlepimidence, but he thought that they had so
far dieciplioed thorn/elves through greet calamities and
great trials as to entitle themselves to some extension of
cooetitatimal liberty. Ha would be an imprudent man
who predicted the restoration ~fr the Polish kingdom a. an
iir.pcosibality, but looking at recent events in Europe
there win to well-grounded reason for,believiog that such a
eontiogeocr would arise at prownit. .tt the some time those
who, •kb the best inteatieus, but the worst judgineot, had
held different language, soil encoureged the Polish people
in Illmory dreams, hail dune poor service to the muse they
desired to advocate. Equally for Poland and Ruedla he
regretted the continuance of the oresent deplorable state of
'hinge. I Hear. hear.) He regretted the language in which
Kumla and her policy had been stigmatised. as she did not
ei serve it. It was in light thing for the Emperor of that
k.teolons to have undertaken the task of emancipating the
setts, mar was it any light thing that the
a. ,ides sad the groat proprietary classes had
se-operated in carrying oat that measure. For many years
poet it had been the pomace for the nobles of Reels to
meat wined...tally Is assembly for conference, sad the Em-
peror had note gene go far as to consult these assemblies.
Ana place before them matters of the highest national ins-
pulsar, for the pewee of obtaining their advice. Looking
at all them things it was evident that a more liberal view
prevailed is Ramie than in fencer years, and he
mould not believe that this liberality on the
part of the government would be confined to
Russia, hot that it would he extended to Poland.
Ile had a right to assume that this policy
weak! b. luting ; for, looking back, they sew that three
seecimeive rulers, the Emperor Alexander, the Emperor
Nicholas, aid the present Emperor, bad promised to give •
coostitution to Poland. Those three emperors had, in sac.
reessitio. acknowledged their duty to that people, and pledged
their honour, and taken the reth of fidelity, not only as
Eniperere of Russia,. but es Kings of Polkaed There were.
• iloeld, classes in Russia unfavourable to Polish liberty ;
aut it would be en injustice to the present ruler of
tl.at country to say that he was indifferent to
the voi.e of truth, or that the tenevoleace which
be had -brown is the einamipation of the serfs would
not be extended to his subjects is e course
dictated not °GILD, generosity, but ty every principle of
sound Cbeen.)
loot It I•7iSE having alluded to the restrictioes which.
es
Foreign Secretary, prevented Lim from speaking AA freely
as he co add wish. unless he was prepereJ to give official
affect to his wools, adverted to the vigorous and ceaseless
"efforts which had teen male by this country by the capes.
Min of o;or own in behalf of Polasol. Since the commence.
meat or the reign of the present Emperor of Rus-
sia concrisioo; had been made to the Poles which
fully almy.c.l that the Eiuperor felt himself hound to carry
Oat the varsatces given by Ramis to Europe at the
et ogress id %Isom in favour of Poland. But at this crisis
the ilia-ail:ewes of last year broke forth—disturimoces
which been checked hy the officials with undue lOWA-
yitation sad harshness, although he believed that Prince
had no intention to act with cruelty. In
regard to the present state of siege, it was nut for him to
critieise the memoirs which a government might take to
maiutain its own internal tranquillity, but as such a mode
of goverolog was of oftemity of • tenire.rary nature only,
he trusted that it would soon be considerably miti-
gated, if Dot slated. The noble earl continued :
A very distinguished Pole, but who has leen impended
from many of his couotrymen because Le wisher to
/retinue in connexion with Russia—the Manlius
receurly gave his advice to the Russian
Emperor with regard to the beet means of pacifying his
counts s. I lwlieve the general rumours no the subject are
correct. that the advice he gays was very. wise advice, and
well befitting a man who took a great interest in his own
erenstry and did nit wish to sever its connexion with Russia.
What he proposed was that the civil governor should Ike
entirely seperated from the military governor; that the
civil goveruor should be a l'ole, that the administration
skinl.l Iv tilled be Pelee, 'oil that the laws of Poland
ghoul.: 11440 free course under Polish judges; in tine
that trace abash be Polish mioisters and a Polish
*MU govmsor, end that while on the one hand the pearl"
should enjoy ea many privileges as wore consistent with
their position, on the other, the troops should rem&
loader tlie cote mud of an officer appointed by the Emperer.
That ; was not silopted by the government of St.
r but at the name t:rue it was loot wholly Tar
.l m the contrary, the greatest favour was 'SOWS
SO the juished twin who Lad given that advice. He
wss receb osl most greriensly and courteously by the Dim
wot. and I see, therefore.no reason to despair that at some
future that not very remote.-the advice so gives
will be ..:optrol, and the Pelee will have the benefits truing I
from ' v. o anent ailing under their own laws, and theogb
subject to a feriign sway, may be satisfied with • nmemmie
of that kind. There was a great Mateo°, of ouch
are .1.1, bin.; a,co.iipli,heil to the government of Italy
under I: hurt Narileon. He was at the bead id • supremo
• nimand over Italy. but Ike I not place there •
Trench ulmiiii.tration or Fr -h goer: Me 4. On the con.
ilaii4l.4 of distinction and taltot were placed by him
in the &mot ilietingnithed positions in lt..P , awl by that
111410 As the people of that country were reconciled to that
which was, ui fact, IA fureiAn government. Rut there are
ether ein arnstances which make cue look to the future not
only for some mitigation of the pre.-mt grievances of
but to a hope that greater privileges and greater
free•
dom will be given to that people. The Emperor
of RuoiSs has already granted to his subjects
• come:ete emancipation from serfdom. We may
WA to the period when, all thous men being
free ootoooyirigt the benefits of freedom. the change will
sot At., .),Ire. When these free ONO rimy go into the
wee of Russia, mid even to St. Petersburg. it will be
quite imonsaible that the remeopoly of the nubility IA,
maintain, .1. Indeed. a great majority of the Rookie sold.
lite lire s'resdy declared they are ready to share with their
~!eet• all the advantages soil privileges they now
enjoy; a..d when the Russian people have • government
accerniamo with the general systems of Europe it must
Iwo the effect of bringing about a great Mange the con-
alitioo of the Pella mhos. If the Debi* lord who has
taken so much palms to elucidate his subject will refer
beck to the year 1831, aid the °pigeons prevailing at that
time, he a ill 6d that the Russians hail a fueling not ooly
sirinet tioae plasm who bad risen in reliellioa aid ismer-
metres
that
In=d the t of Russia, but mho
lesbeg that it wee mire'fair that the Poles skald
• bets since 1816 iapottriloyment of greeter privileges
this they themselves Them wee • sort of se-
Vaasa jeeleusy is regard to the Poles, Lot sow that Runde
enjoys peeler freedom sad privileges. se far from. having
that helms of hostility they will be glad to see the r

placed upon an equality with themselves, and enjoying
/wder liberty. (Hear. hear.) I have spoken to your lord•
ships nut only my observations on the ease stated by the
nob c lord, but it.y speculatiuus as to the future ; but I
toilet cu as I be-,;ao, by saying that while uothiog would
give me iudividually, and the government collectively,
mater satisfaction than to see happiness and peace prevail
Pnlaud so, ou the other band, we are of opinion that
any immediate interference, still less remoostraoce, on our
part, with the court of Buena would not tend to promote
the object which the Dobbs earl has in view. lam very
glad the noble earl who has spoken with much discretioo
sod ability, -has mlled your lordships attention to the sub-
ject ; but 1 do trust that, as slavery it gradually ceasing in
many other parts of the world, it will also era long cease
to exist iu euland. (Cheers.)
After a few words in reply frets the Earl of CAEIAIVOY,
the subject dropped.
Their lordships adjourned at 20 minutes to 7 o'clock,

HOUSE OF 00YMONS.—TUIFIDAT, MARCH 25.
The SPLICER took the their at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.
Mr. Mogarre took his seat for the North Riding of York-
shire In the roma of Mr. E. 8. Cayley, demand ; and Mr.
Rixff•rrov Mitts for Wycombe, is the room of Sir G. H.
Dsahwood, deceased.
CUSTOILS AND INLAND REVENUE DEPART-
MENTS.
Mr. HORSFALL gave notice that, on this day. fon:debt.
he should move for • select committee to inquire into the
practicability of coueolidatiog the customs and inland re-
venue departments. with a view to greeter economy in the
public revenue and placing them in a more efficient mate,
and also with • view of simplifying the mode of transacting
the business in them departments.
MILITARY TRAIN.
Colonel W. STUART wished to ask the Secretory of State
for War whether the Military Train was now • purchase or
non-purchase corps ; if the former, to state when and for
what reasons the change was mad; ; if the latter, to explain
on what principle officers were allowed to exchange from
the line into the Military Train, and vice versa ; also, to
what extent commission were sold in the Military Train.
SizO. LEW ISsaid the Military Train was a purchase corps
mow* like the Magary anal cavalry regiments of the line.
It was true that many officers in the corps had gained their
eseantheions without purchase, but that was
Works owing to the
feet of its having been formed from the Army Corp.,
which was not a purchase corps. (Hear, bear.)
THE TAEPINGS OF CHINA.
Mr. FREELAND wished to ask the Under Secretary of
bete for Foretell Affairs whether any communications
had bees received from our military or naval officers in
acennutnd on the China station, with reference to the clia•
rector sod operations of the Taepiugs, or rebels; and
whether the govenmeot would lay upon the able of the
house, copies of, or extrects from, any such communion-
tioes.
Kr. LAY ARD said the pagers would be shortly laid
before parliament.
COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH BELGIUM.
Mr. FORSTER wished to sek the Under Secretary of
1 State foe Foreign Affairs whether he could give the house
any ieformatios relative to the comnalwaiel treaty now
tID mid wew .s
bee 468417 thelkibra. mber would
bow wi•
th regret the annottneenseet that, owing to the large
dermas put forward by the Belgian government, the nego-
Miaow had beam enegoadeiL
THE REVISED EDUCATION CODE.
Mr. WALPOLZ rose to more that this house will imme-
diately resolve *telt into • committee to consider the best
mode of distributing the parliamentary 'mute for educa-
tion now administered by the Privy Caused ; and, in com-
mittee, to move the following resolutions :-1. Ttat, where
it is proposed to give government aid to elementary schools,
it is inexpedient that the whole amount of such aid should
tispend on the hidividual examination of each child in read-
and arithmetic. 2. That the system of group-
• by age taw the purpose of maxikation would be unequal
▪ epsestion, and an of the work done in
the Wool. and specially dimiwstagessa for those children
whole early educetioe be been segkehed. 3. That the pro.
visions of the revised code, in the points referred to in the
foregoing revolutions, would, if uoamended, increase the diU
Scotty of extending the benefits of the government grants to
poor mid neglected districts. 4. That the refusal of any
portion of the parliamentary grants. on account of any
children who have once puled in the highest dem of 'an-
imation. is likely to have an injurious effect, as tending to
mravate the acknowledged evil of the withdrawal of
children from elementary schools at on early age. 5. That
it is inexpedient that the capitation Qaate on amount of
'Midis.' antler seven years of age sbooid be made to depend
as the Individual examination of those children. 6. That the
peovieisms of the revised code with regard to evening schools
sew unetisfactory. inasmuch as the master, in many came,
would be unable, after the labour undergone in the day,
adequately to attend to the management and teaching of
the evening scholars. 7. That the regulations contained in
the ravised code, with regard to pupil teachers, are unjust
and impolitic. R. That it would be unjust entirely to with-
hold the other benefits of the parliamentary grant from
nub managers of schools as decline to undertake to provide
and pay the stipend and gratuities, now severally payable
on account of pupil teachers, during the continuance
of their current apprenticeship. 9. That it would
be impolitic to ran the risk of • return to the
snookered system by discouraging the employment
of pupil teachers. and that such employment would
be better promoted by pecuniary premiums than by
pecuniary penalties. 10. That in Jaanary of each
year, if the code be revised, or any material altera-
tion in it be It shall be printed in stash • form as
to show separately It
cancelled or modified, and all
sew articles. IL That, in the event of such revision or
material alteration as mentiooed in the last fore-
going resolution, it shall not be lawful to take
thy action thereon until the 'Me shall have been
eititted to parliament, and laid on the table
of both houses for at least one calendar month.
As the government had not thought proper to bring for-
ward the code in the shape of a bill, he should consider it
as if it was • bill, and deal with it now as if it had reached
Ike stage of second reading. He did not therefore propose
to question the principle on which the code was founded,
bat object to the mode ia which it was proposed to carry
the principle out. He pointed out that the present system
of educatiou was founded on two principles which bad
mimed it to flourish and progress—namely, the stimulating,
by grants of public money, private and local efforts,
and the making religion the basis of instruction;
and by this means the four millions and • half of
public money which had been granted dime 1828 had been
net by private subscriptions amounting to nine millions.
La regarded the quantity of education, the MICCSIBB of the
system was undeniable, while as regarded the quality, in
order to its improvement there bad been introduced the
phis which the revised code would destroy, such as train-
img schools end pupil teachers. No doubt the annual
estimate had risen to a large sum ; but the question was
whether it was too high for the purple of the education of
the people, and before it was determined to cut the grant
down on the ground of economy, it wan necessary to see
whether economy would be promoted at the oust of effici-
ency. The government hail only asserted that the system
should be either economical or efficient, but there was no
, promise of • combination of the two; sod the government
! was unable to say what the result of the new code would be.
He proceeded to point out the advantages of the present
*yearn voliudery effort, religious teaching,
I discipline, and the pupil teacher system, all of
which he contended were put in peril by the new
code. The main defects of the system on which the
code was forward was that elementary education
was not sufficiently advanced, and it was proposed
to meet this by establishing • lower elms of masters.
The testa which were established by the code went to nen-
' teethe and cause to go for nothing all that was done which
woe good and beneficial in the induct of schools, unless
they came up to an arbitrary standard. All tiaras and
denominations of religion objected to limit the test of the
results of schools to a single examination, and the
grouping of children according to age. He urged that
all the evidence showed that the existing system
had trained children to • vast extent to become
good men sad good citizens in • Christian country,
rod he prayed the government not to make the public
manta depeud on • simgle examination without reference
to the actual effects which had been attained. Agreeing in
the necessity of simplifying the machinery of national
education, he urged that that might be done without de•
striving the system itself. He very strenuously and in
much detail supported the pupil-teacher system. He then
pointed out, by reference to the resolutions which he was
about to move, the mode in which he proposed to neutralise
the ill effects which he anticipated would flow from the re-
vised code, as they inked the bongs to negative the portions
of the code to which they applied. In conclusion be mid—
i wish it to be noderstood, that when in future
greet change. are made io mutational system of education.
they shal not be concerted, aa it were, in private—flood
cheeriugl—and published when parliament is not sitting.
I wish it to be understood that the Committee of Council is
• depanesert of the government entrusted with important
administrative functions; but that legislative autho-
rity is not conferred upon them. Legislative authority has
been assumed here, anal I hope that legislative authority
will never be allowed to be resumed again. (Cheers.) Had
this not been done, 1 believe the agitation of this question
would not have been one-half what it is at present.
1 do not Marne the right lon. gentleman for having devised
this plena. With the report of the commissioners before him
he was not only entitled. but it was his duty to have framed
• plan. (a Mvernmeut cheers.) Neither do I blame him for
having announced his plan in the autumn. On the other
band, I think • great good has resulted from its having
been canyeased. What 1 do blame is, not him, but the
system which his bees attempted to be forced opal us. I
de find fault with any system which enables ministers,
without the authority of either house of parliamentto
hems mounrea which have, in fact, a vast legislative
laqoarissee without submitting those measures te
perlieseek awl without seeing how far they me
williag to adopt them. By taking the course yea bele
does, you have pieced the house, and not this heath =IN
but parliament. in a difficulty, from which it is hardly pew
aible for us, even now, to extricate ourselves. Thin Isle
other mode except that which I have ventured to
namely that we should diseum this matter as if it sZsi tt
goverment bib that we should go into committee an It
with a view of seeing is what respect we can Mane the

• T

government to eutertaiu the objections which have been so
forcibly, I may say so conclusively, urged against it. But
the government hoe deprived us of the power of going into
committee with the view of framing a measure for them
which they ought to have framed for us, bemuse we have no
lesesure with which we oould deal. lo moving therefore, sir,
*et you go into committee, I do not do so for the pur-
pose of subverting the code which the right hon. gentlemen
Las proposed. Its main objects I evebelie to be right, but
the Mode in which they
notarposed to accomplished I
believe to be wrong. Ido sk you to go into committee
to examine any plan of my own. That would indeed be
taking on myself, or asking the house to take, the initiative
in a nutter which rests solely with the executive govern.
ment, which it is for them aloes to prepare, and for which
they are alone responsible. Nor do I ask the house to go
into committee with a view of outing any censure upon
the government. The questiou of education is not,
never was, and never ought to be a party ques-
tion ; sad if I know myself and my own duties,
party will have nothing to do with the ‘nestion
of this motion. I ask the house to go lot* committee is
extent hat t
ergovernment may tell bow far and to what
exet they re intending to alter those Parts of the system
of education which have hitherto d so mnah good in the
country. lam asking you to go toe
mittee in order that
every hon. gentleman in this house may press upon the
government for explanations which may enable them to put
this code in a better shape then it is at present ; and if the
house were to require the government to take back the code
sad re-amend it, I don't think the country would suffer
much from such a decision. I now beg to wove that you,
Sir, leave the chair, for the pupae' I have specified,
and for no other porposes, and I trust, when you
resume the chair, you will resume it with such
resolutions placed in your hands, as that the decision to
which this house shall at last arrive on the subject of edu-
cation may satisfy the expectations and calm the fears of
an anxious country ; and then, sir, I believe that your voice
will go forth to the country, not with a means which will
koalas. the dissatisfaction and discontent which unfortu-
nudely prevail so much and so extensively here. but with a
merge of what I may call peace, justice, charity, and wis-
dom—(cheep)—of peace. because it will allay an irritation
greater than any that I ever remember—of justice.
because it will satisfy those who think they are wronged
by this homes, who never before kneed a deaf ear
to their Pot and equitable claim—el eleetity, bemuse it
will still, reendith all that bra limn dose by this
hew, orwerege the oss et evientory beenoissee,
mad ambles
pthislased geed weele al pronetiothe ado-
calks el the to the utmost led of a maw
rip of wisdoms, in politio I seie there no wis-
dom bleier than this—that parlismest sad the goverment
sineld strain every nerve and apply even effort, and being
to beer all the experience sad knowledge they tea coin-
ared, In order to provide a sound and vestal education for
diem poorer classes of our fellow saltiest* who, althea&
baker the level of the direct constitameeles who retunt es
kera after all are, and always must he, the
min foundation of the state, foundations which
Wit Oa be vigorous or sound unless they are laid in a
▪ redgions, industrious, and well-instructed people.
rowerbee. gentleman, on resuming his seat, was loudly
by the house.)
Sir G. GREY said that the government were perfectly
ready to accede to the proposal to go into committee of the
whole house. Some time ago the government announced
their readiness to take this step. The right boa. gentleman
(Mr. Walpole) had said he might have framed resolutions
condemning altogether the principles and details of the re-
vised code. If the right hon. gentleman had taken that
course, then Le (Sir G. Grey) thought it would have been
the duty of government to have resisted the motion for
going into committee, without having previously taken
the opinion of the house as to whether or not the views of
the right hon. gentlemen would be sanctioned by them.
But the right hon. gentlemen had avowed his support of the
principle of the revised code, and bad repeated that avowal
at the elm of his speech in express and distinct terms.
His object was, while assenting to the two wain principles
of the code, to which he gave his cordial adhesioe, merely to
object to the mods in which it was proposed. It wee ob-
viously inoonveoient to enter. with the Speaker lathe chair.
upon the discussion of the details of the resolutions, sad
into the minute calculations which the right bon. gentle-
man had brought under the notice of the house in express-
ing his views upon this question. The right hon. gentle.
man, therefore, considered the present stage of the question
as equivalent to the second reading of a ball, assuming that
the revised ode bad been embodied in a bill, and laid upon
the table by his right hon. friend, when he stated
the grounds which bad induced the government to
iotroduce those modifications which, after full consideration,
they were disposed to adopt. They were now asked to go
into committee to consider the details of the measure, and
if that', wee the object of the right hon. gentleman, the
government were perfectly reedy to meet him in the name
spirit when the Speaker had left the chair. (Hear, hear.)
At the same time he must express his regret, if they were
now to go into committee to criticise and amend the details
of a measure, that the right hon. gentleman bad not, in the
notice he had placed upon the paper, taken that coarse
which members ordinarily followed in giving notice of
amendments in committee, and stated in positive terms
what were the alterations which he would advise the house
to adopt, instead of submitting, as he had done, a series of
negativing resolution. He thought it would be immure-
tient if be were to follow the right bon. gentlemen into
details which must come under coesideration when they
got into committee, but be hoped that when they did enter
upon the discussion of the details the right hon. gentleman
would be prepared with something more than these mere
negativing resolution ; that he would be able to explain
room fully to what extent the principle of testing by results
should be applied. lie could not see how velum
tary effort would be checked by making the government
grant dependent upon the results obtained in the schools; on
the contrary, be believed that proof of an efficient and useful
education would stimulate voluntary contributions.
With regard to discipline, it was not intended that if the
children were acquainted nigh the elements of reeding,
writing, and arithmetic, the school should receive the
fall amount of the parliamentary grant, if deficient in
cleanliness, order, and discipline ; but no one. he should
think, would propose to limit the examination to those points.
The existing system bad the effect of creating too fine a
machinery for the work which it was intended to do. No
doubt it did an immense deal of good both with respect to
the materials of the school and the improvement of the
schoolmaster ; but the important point was whether, with
regard to the education of the poor, the result had been
that which they had a right to expect. One of the objec7
time taken by the commissioners was that the system bad
not reached the poorer districts d the country; but at the
same time that was an objection inherent in that part of
the system advocated bythe right hon.gentleman, of making
the parliamentary pant dependent on voluntary contribu•
time, thereby eliciting a vast amount to meet the govern-
ment grant; whereas the change proposed by the revised
code was calculated to meet that evil by loweriug in some in-
stances the qualification of the master and assisting schools
which hitherto had not received government aid. Another
*an= urged by his right hon. friend was that the junior
syncbed sot been eufficieutly attended to. But the
wind owls would induce the master to give greater atten-
dee to the junior classes, by the system of grouping and in-
dividual examination, than to children of a more advanced
age. The actual instruction given to the younger children
wend be shown, and the receipt of the vent would depend
OM to a great extent. As to the pupil teachers, he
maid net go into details, because they would be more pro-
perly eansidered in committee ; but he might say that the
assumption of his right hon. friend, that the new code
tendel to destroy those teachers, was not well founded.
That part of the system which had been condemned by the
Committee of Council was that which brought the certi-
ficated routers and pupil teachers into immediate con-
nexion with the government, and thus produced expecta-
tions and gave rise to claims which would otherwise not
have existed. The question was whether they ought to per-
petuate a bad system for the purpose of guarding what
were said to be vested interests. His right bon. friend
(Mr. Lowe) had been entirely misunderstood when be ems
represented to have said that one effect of the revised code
would be to take away the security against disniissaL
What he really stated was, that whereas now they had no
fecurity against disinters' with a day's notice, the proposed
alterations gave them • security against dismissal, without
at least six months' notice, end therefore, instead of in-
juring, the revised code would benefit the pupil teachers in
that respect. He was glad to bear his right hon. friend
bad declined, though urged thereto by some of his friends,
to make this a party question. He quite agreed with
him that the question of the education of the people
was one which ought to be above all party considerations
Mr. STAN HOPE strongly objected to that part of the
proposed plan which made the amount of government aid
to elementary schools dependent upon the examination of
each individual child. He commented upon the unsatis-
factory and conflictingavidenco as to the results of educa-
tion in the schools under the existing system, and upon the
injustice of attributing the effects arising from inept-
larity of school attendance to faults of system. The irre-
gularity of attendance, the withdrawal of childen from school
to be employed in rural labour, and other evils, were, be
insisted, incurable under any system. He was willing to
agree to a certain extent in the recommendations of the
commissioners. even that each child should I* examined ;
but the commissioners nowhere said that the whole my-
ment should depend upon the examination of each child is
reading, writing, and arithmetic. Re pointed out the mis-
chievous results, in certain eases, likely to attend the work-
ing of the revised code, and he maintained that it was not
fair to teachers to make their emoluments depend upon the
individual examination of their pupils.
Mr. C. BUXTON fully believed that the new code would
not injure religious teaching. but would leave this. as they
were now. His firm conviction was that these who wee
melons in the cause of education for the waking dense is
Eaglsod would not for one moment relax in their labours,
even if they were not paid for them. (Hear, hear.) The
heart of the question was this : was the system properly
doiag its work ! It seemed to him that, instead of Lord
Granville snd the m
ice-President of Education being fit
objects of the abuse that had been lavished upon them, they
could not too much admire the courage and pstriotism
which had halms& them to ad upon the decided declara-
tions of the oommindoners that thessystem was not doing its
work. He believed that when the new system was got to
week, the teachers would be enamelled to and whet a
sods en applied to than by their having piece Instead
of day work. Be should most heartily give his vete is
favour ot this revoletelnexine. beware be WY perverted
that II would teed to,
give ea lavigoratiag Abadan
to the education the poor.
Lord IL CECIL said the hon. gentleman who had just
eat down appeared to him to be under the impel.= that

because be coal le l idle in tbe existing system, there--
fore b. was boast blisindi, and was entitled to
Can upon
other, to vote f my remedy that government might pro-
pose. Now, he entirely concurred with him that there were
evils in the present system, and he should join as cordially
as the boo. gentlemen would in any wise and well-considered
measure to remedy those evils. But he objected to this
scheme, not only because It did not remedy the existing
evils, but became it left them skit in existence end rather
deepened their intensity, and made them ten 'times more
perilous.
Mr. FORSTER wished to explain the imams which im-
pelled him, however reluctantly, to oppose the educational
measures of the government (Hoar, hear.) It
was generally understood that this question was
not to be treated as a party question ; indeed the right hen.
gentleman the member for Cambridge Universit had told
them so, and the right hon. gentleman had before shown
the house how, on a question of principle, he mold rise
superior to party motives. (Cheers.) Halides his (Mr.
Forster's) reluctance to rise in opposition to the government,
he disliked opposing the present minute became it was im-
pcesible to deny that the administration of our educational
system did uire some reform. (Hear, bear.) He
d, however, somelittle practical experience the week-
log of the system, and that experience bad weekend him
that the great and sweeping change now contemplated
would be not so much • reform as • destruction of the pre-
heat system, and if not a destruction, at least an
aggravation of its evils. He suped a division
would take place on the first resolution. It would
be a close division under any circumstances, and
could not fail, in such an important matter, to pro-
duce inconvenient results. This was a very great change,
altering entirely the relations between the state sod the
officers of education, and also instituting a payment for
the results of education instead of making a provision of
machinery. Would the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Lowe) force them to a division, because he went so much
farther than the royal commissioners? This was a question
on which that bonee and great masses of the people were
brought face to face. (Hear, hear.) The hopes and aspi-
rations of the working doses to share still further in
the work of legislation very much depended on the amount
of education imparted to them. Tbe working classes knew
this very well to be the case, and although they had often
complained of the burden of taxation, be believed they Lad
never complained of the amount asked for an educational
gnat. (Hear, bear.) if the right hon. gentleman pushed
his resolutions to a division he would mar the good work
already dons, sod if be cannon portissoiously to the some.
what pedantic requirements of this bureaucratic scheme be
would, instead of reforming the system as he hoped, injure,
if not destroy it. (Hear, Lear.)
Mr. PULLER expressed his conviction that the right
how ggsatlemas the Vice-President of the Committee of
Geepsid would have acted more wisely if be had allowed the
settatry a longer time to digest the report of the commis-
sioners on which this great change was founded.
The introduction of the new code had filled every manager
of schools with consternation. How 'may of them bed de-
clared against the code? How many petitions bad been
presented in favour of the code ? Hitherto there bad been only
one petition. with only one signature attached to it. His right
how friend hail that evening presented some petitions is
favour, which were received by the hems with a elegibessit
cheer, showing that the event was • semewhat rege e
(Hear, hear.) Were there net many teem in whisk peesals
of children who knew that they could MI WOW be kb.
duced to enter into bargains with the nessegemt4Menw, bees.
Seventy-seven per cent. of the delves woe able be
their Bibles well. That was a geektaskwy Tema el the
present system. It was said that the =Wag system wee
tentative. But was the new code likely to be plemallsolla
What more security wee there that the ravio =de stag
be more permanent than the existing system?li
An end wee
put to the existing contmeta sad to the angmestatios
grants, sod his right boa. friend was going to anode a
number of provisionally emaciated ex-pupil teachers. lie
did not believe them would be any Urn* finality hi the re-
vised code than in the existing system. (Hem beer.)
Mr. LEATHAM mid the strong point of thc: hon. essen
man who bad last at down was that the new sea.
violated vested interests. Bat the' vested intermits hi
the present case were vested intimate in their teens. Thal
right hon. gentleman who opened the debate quoted the
authority of the Rev. Mr. Buie, but Mr. Birka did not
concur is the conclusions of therbthon. gestlemes,thatthe
revised code would much affect the money gennt The midi
objection of the right hon. gentleman to the robed eels was,
that the religious education of the people would
.be Wesel,
by its introduction. Now he did not think Fehr= was
fitting subject for • test at all. He did not think reliefs
was a commodity which should beer a money mina Would
the seal of the clergy be damped unless the schools received
those grants from the government? It was not advisable to
carry the religious elenseet so far as be had seen it carried
in some instanoso He bad sera what might be called a
spleen of sacred arithmetic adopted in some of these
schools. There were questions of this kind. "There were
four evangelists, 12 patnarchs, and 12 apostles. Multiply
the number of patriarchs by the number of evangelists, sad
divide by the apostles." (LenOter.) "Solomon had so
many wives and so many concubines. Subtract the one from
the other and state the remainder." (laughter.) This wea
sot to teach religion. But it was mid you ought to have
security for the religious instruction. What esmulty had
yea sow? Dr. Temple said that religion was the Ay-wheel
Si the whole system. Would the fly-wheel be stopped Y set
linhailatedby the oil of the governmeotruit? It hadbato said
ChM the %may of education would be iojured by lowering the
wallicetton of the teachers, but Mr. Brookffeld in his re-
lirardted the cluklree educated under the 3rd dem me,
teacher* wen rather better educated than
when who were inetreeted by those who had •
Idiplocan The tools had too flee en edge for the matt;
liscl to do. You surely ought to require that the children
of the poor should be able to pais amexaminatiou in reading.
writing, and arithmetic, which were to form the basin of
their future meet It was mid by Gibbon that every
man received two kinds of education, that which he re-
ceived at school and that more valuable education which be
gave himself either at school or after he left it. It ma
in order to enable the children of the poor to get this better
kind at education that he should support the revised
schema (Hear, hear.)
On the motion of Mr. Warman the debate was ad-
journed till Thursday.
WEST HARTLEPOOLMPAN RAILWAY AND DOCK
CO Y.
Mr. ROEBUCK moved far • select committee to in-
quire into the truth of the allegations contained in the
petition of Benjamin Coleman, charging fraud on the part
of the direetors of the West Hartlepool Railway and Dock
Company.
Mr. ht. GIBSON said such an inquiry would be best
conducted by a court of law, and as legal proceedings were
pending upon the subject he did not think it would be
right to appolot a select committee.
Mr. ROEBUCK observed that the charge would not come
before a court of law.
The motion was negatived.
MUTINY BILL.
This bill we. read a third time and gamed.
The holm adjourned at 10 minute, to 1 o'clock.