The Express.
London, England, 1852-06-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 22, 1852.

excited in tho breast of every Effiglishnlasi ; and when it
was ape in their lordships' hips'' his noble
frisiod -sage head of Foreign they would
retellatilles Impassion it mobs. sot they
Zil"11181ne Noy postsild alma la my, the brutal
aente4 eserage ; is egad ese so so far uthe
.0
Mak lord at the head of the late goveudefeat had done, ea
to look upon it as an lISINUIL upon lib country and
es a national insult upon the honour of Great Britain.
I Now, he begeed their lordships to considee what would be
' the consequence, if they were to lay it down as a rule that
every Englishman who had received an affront or • per-
' sonal assault in a foreign country was so identified with the
' national honour that the moment he was struck the bosom.
of Great Britain was likewise stricken? (Hear, hear.)
Suppose they carried the case farther, and supposed that
M r.Mat her had been killed—suppose th eleven anllngliahman
was murdered in a foreign country—what would be the conse-
quence to this country if they were to lead themselves called
upon to revenge his death with the whole dignity and
strength of the empire ? He looked upon the cane to be
this: An Englishman might he insulted or injured in a
foreign country as he might at home ; and he had a right
to all the privileges that a foreigner would have enjoyed
under similar circumstances, and to the same protection.
from the laws of the country he might happen to be in.
If those laws were justly dinpenscil when he applied to the
tribunal appointed for such cases, he (Lord Malmesbury) did
not think he had a right to ask for the interference of the
British government. (Cheers.) Ile did not think the
government was justified in interfering, until justice had
been refused to an Englishman by the tribunal to which the
natives of the foreign country would have been bound to
apply. (Hear, hear.) No doubt his noble friend had acted
' from the best and most patriotic endives, but officially and
legally he thought he was wrong in bringing the Foreign-
office into action, before the Tuecaus had closed their courts
to Mr. blether, and until he had failed in obtaining from
the civil courts of that country that reparation to which
he was undoubtedly entitled. (Hear, hear.) The
position in which he (the noble earl) found the
lON was this :—Mr. Maher bail more than one
swine open to him. lied he lived thirty years
ago, there was one that he, and any of their lordships
would have been, and must have been, with the opinions
that then prevailed in this country and on the continent,
induced to follow. lie did not blame Mr. Mather tor nut
having adopted that course. Their opinions had fortunately
changed on that subject, but that was formerly the way in
which a gentleman would have sought reparation fore per-
sonal injury. Ile (the noble lord) should be very sorry to
think that another practice that went hand in hand with
duelling was likewise abolished, and that it should ho
thought contrary to the dignity of gentlemen, when
they inflicted en injury, to make an apology for
it. (Hear.) He thought that, generally speaking, where an
insult was not premeditated, an ample, full, and frank
apology was sufficient satisfaction. (Hear, hear.) A man's
honour must always remain in his own bands; and he did
I motley that Mr. Mather was wrong in refusing the ample
apolozy that was offered him : for Lieut. Forsthuber was
sent to him with another lieutenant who spoke English, to
make such an apology in any term that he might desire,
provided that be would only say that on his
part he did not intend to insult him. Mr. Mather had
therefore that mode of obtaining reparation, but he would
not take it, and he refused the apology. lie went further
than that. Ile positively refused to go into the civil courts.
From the first his conduct was founded upon the principle
that the assault was a national insult, and to that be (Lard
Malmesbury) could never agree. Five days after he had
entered upon his office he received a visit from Mr. Ma-
ther, who came of his own accord to consult him upon the
business. He spoke of the assault upon hisses as a na-
tional insult ; but be (Lord Malinesbury) told him that the
national honour was in his hands, and that that part of the
affair wain* business of hie (Mr. Mather's), except so far
as every Englishman WAS concerned in the maintenance of
the national honour. He (the noble earl) said that the
question divided itself into two pacts; and that with re-
gard to the first it was most essential that her Majesty's
governmeut should not, by any act of theirs, admit the non-
liability of the Tuscan (government to afford redress.
(Cheers.) The second point was that he (Lord Manes-
bury) should obtain the reparation. In answer to the
question what he considered that reparation should be, Mr.
blather said lie left it te him (the noble lord) to state. He
I (the noble lord) replied that he ought to be treated as he
would have been treated in England ; that he had • right
to the same damages as he would have obtained in a court
of justice, and that his (the noble lord's) influence should
be exercised to obtain those damages for him. Mr. blather
did mot object to that course, but lie asked for two days to
consider and to consult his friends. He also re-
quested him (the noble lord) to state what was
the amount of damages he ought to have ; and
he replied that as he was going to consult his
friends, he bad better also take their opinion upon that
point. (Hear, hear.) Ile need hardly say any-
thing as to the justness of the determination to apply to the
court of Tuscany. On that point the noble lord who had
introduced the subject agreed with the government; but
the head of the late government, and another noble lord
greatly distinguished, had blamed him tor applying to
Tuscany instead of Austria. Now, the government were
without a Queen's advocate, and had therefore only their
own judgment and common sense to rely upon • but it
seemed to them that there were obvious reasons Why they
should apply to Tuscany, and nut to Austria. (Hear, hear.)
Ile seas of the highest political consequence induced them
Missy the jurisdiction of Austria in Tuscany, under any
tam, whether directly or Indirectly—(hear„ hear)—and
they acted without • single doubt on that principle. His
astonishment was, he must say, very great when this course
was blamed by the two noble lords of,whom he had spoken.
It appeared that no longer ago thou ISI9, the same Austrian
army—for aught he knew the same officer and the same re-
giment—was in Tuscany, and that on entering Leghorn they
committed great excesses and acts of violence upon some
British property. Complaints were naturally made of this
conduct, another kind of reparation being here required.
(Hear.) Her Majesty's government consulted, no doubt, the
Queen's Advocate ; and their lordships would judge of his
astonishment when he rend the letter to which he was
about to refer, written by Viscount Palmerston, then Minis-
ter of Foreign Affairs, to Sir George Hamilton, on the Bth
of August, 1849. The noble earl then read he letter, in
which it was mid, that inasmuch as the lasses complained of
appeared to have been inflicted by a party of troops called
into Tuscany by; the Grand Duke, her Majesty's govern-
ment must consider the Tuscan government responsible for
those acts. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl also referred to
• letter from Viscount Palmerston to Viscount Ponaonby,
ambassador at Vienna, in the same year to the tame
effect. Now it was • great *addiction to him to
know that he had followed the same course as
W predecessors with respect to that important point;
eel he did not attribute to the noble lord the late l'rirne
niter any further blame than that of having totally for-
=his own acts, when he reprimanded him (the Earl of
bury) publicly for having applied to Tuscany
band of Austria. (" Hear, hear," from the Earl of
Derby.) With respect to the question of damages, it was
quite possible that fur 5,000!. many of their lordships would
be willing to endure the paiu and danger to which Mr.
Mather was subjected ; but he did not think damages were
to be estimated by that rule. (Ilear, hear.) They must
see what damages would be awarded by British jurors, in a
*matey where money was on a different scale from what it
was in Florence. He had been accused of dishonouring
Mr. Mather ; the late l'rime Minister had charged
him with having taken away tho character of
an independent and honourable Englishman, and
blasted it by his interference. Why, it was one
of the eoeuesseet things in the world for persons in
▪ Willheittesit to go into a court of justice for damages ;
OA Wood, in a civilised country, it was almost the only
sesseesioa that could be obtained. The noble
UM opposite wholly mistook the matter. Ho hail
never asked for damages for the injured honour
of England, not conceiving that British honour
was touched ; what he said was that Mr. Mather was en-
titled to such personal damages as he could have got in his
own country. Ho did net wish to conceal any part of theft
transactions ; and he candidly owned that there was MO
fact with respect to which he was to blame. On flatax
the 72nd, having received, as ho thought, the finaldaga
settling the whole question, and, not knowing Rot Mr.
Scarlett had waived the principle of responsibility, he did
not open the other despatches which arrived, as he ought
to have done, immediately. Such an error was, perhaps,
very grave ; but he should not bo afraid of a 'reedit& pm
nounced by a jury composed of ex-Foreign Secretaries;
and he did not think any one who had not been in that
office could have any idea of the immense quantity of
work which fell upon tho holder of it. He might
add, as a curious piece of information, that during the last
year no less than 33,000 despatches passed in and out of
the Foreign-office. To hint by far the most painful part of
this matter was that the agent who was acting under his
instructions, and who up to that time had always Oen
great satisfaction to the government under which he screed,
followed a course which he could nut but say wee entirely
opposite to his instructions. His instructions, which the
Prime Minister characterised as unintelligible, were three
in number. The first referred to the responsibility of
Tuscany for the protection of her Majesty's subjects
either in her courts of justice or by her executive;
the second was that for the personal injury which
he had sustained Mr. blather should receive WI., and
that no less would be accepted ; the third was, that if
Mr. Scarlett failed to secure these two points from the Tus-
can government, he was to wait till Sir 11. Bulwer arrived
at Florence. Ile could not understand, up to that moment,
why Mr. Scarlett had not waited for that distinguished and
noble diplomatist; and certainly, under the circumstances,
he could not blame himself for writing as he had done to
Sir 11. Bulwer, either to obtain the main points, or to close
her Majesty's mission at Florence. (Cheers.)
Lord CAMPBELL held that Mr. Barlett had been fully
justified in concluding the arrangement he had made with
the Tuscan government, and urged the vagueness of the
instructions on which he had acted as the ground of jus-
tification.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was of opinion that the de-
mand for redress might fairly hays been made either upon
Amnia or Tuscany, hut preferably upon Austria. Atter
=
to 6 apology of Prince Schwarsenlierg, however, the
honour ought have been satisfied, and Lord
Meimesbery had done right in aßerwaris regarding thecae°
OD time et mere personal injury, to he compensated pecu-
niarily by Tuscany.
Earl GRANVILLE referred to various cases of armies
esenpying foreign countries, and expressed a hope that the
=itat would demand explanations from Austria and
to the conditions of their occupation of the Italian
gates. Ile thought it possible that such terms might be
arranged by the mediation of this country as would lead to
the withdrawal of these troops. (Hear, hear.) With re-
ference to the carp scut case, lie viudicated the lite govern-
ment from the charge of being too hasty and impatient
in demanding reparation.
That Earl st DEILLSY said it was accessary to draw a

distinction between the national point of view, and that re-
garding the individual. If an Austrian officer bed cam-
, emitted Ws offence or insult spa oat a British subject as a
national offence ; if he had joined, for instance, in pulling
down the consular flag, or offering any insult which might
be considered a national insult, he wee not prepared to say
that we ought not to hold the nation employing that officer
responsible for a national insult. (liesr, hear.) But in
this case, from tint to lest, there was no question of national
insult or indignity. (Hear, hear.) It was perfectly clear
the officer did nut know that the offending party was an
Englishmen, that he bail no previous malice or grudge
against him. It was perfectly clear, from the very first,
that all the Austrian authorities, differing from us as to
the responsibility of the officer, joined in disclaiming any-
thing like national feeling, and in expressing regret at
the unfortunate occurrence which bad taken place. Prince
Lichtenstein, in his despatch, regretted the sad occurrence
which had given rise to the negotiation, and hoped the
English government would not have occasion to write to
him again on such a subject. It was impossible for an
officer placed in his position to offer a more 'landscape ex-
premien of regret; and when, at a subsequent period,
Prince Schwarsenberg himself, en the part of the Austrian
government, expressed their regret at the occurrence, all
international feeling as between England and Austria
might he considered to be at an end; and he joined in the
observation that any apology flout the Austrian c nicer was
unimportant, after receiving that signal and marked ex-
pression of regret from his superior. (Hear, hear.) It
was unfortunate that in the first instance Mr. &Arlen had
accepted the trust which Mr. Mather had placed in his
hands; and had thus prematurely made what wan a per-
sonal matter, a question of international dispute. lie
thought that the noble earl was therefore in error in making
a demand upon Tuscan before reparation had been
sought for in the Tuscan courts. (Hear, he r.)
But supposing that reparation was to be given, what
ought to be its character and quality ? Should it be so
apology ? An apology was offered by Austria, and was re-
jceted in a most contumelious manner by Mr. Mather, who
demanded au inquiry, and the full and exemplary punish-
meat of the offender. The only case in which the noble
earl thought it wasa case for an apology for the government
was in the case of the failure or unfairness of the tribunals.
The noble earl lied instructed Mr. Searlett to demand an
inquiry, and Mr. Scarlett reported that that inquiry had
been a full and fair one, and had been conducte a with tio
desire to screen any one. Then came the demand founded
upon that inquiry, for the punishment of the offender.
But the Tuscan government said they had a treaty
with Austria which rendered that impossible, for
the Austrian officers were withdrawn from the coguisance
of the courts. Ile (Lord Derby) thought it would have been
most unwise if they bad accepted the total irresponsibility
of the Austrian troops, and had not called upon the Tuscan
government at all. It wee a matter of the utmost impor-
tance to affirm and maintain the principle of Tuscan re-
sponsibility for injuries inflicted in Tuscany. The article
in the treaty was one which this country was by no ratans
bound to recognise, for it was not a patent, but a secret
one, unknown to the other powers of Europe. (Hear, hear.)
He thought he might venture to say, that in tho parallel
case in 1/119 the late government had acted in precisely a
similar manner, under the advice of the Queen's Advocate,
when they hail felt it their duty to insist upon the sole re-
sponsibility of Tuscany for injuries inflicted in that
country. (Hear, hear.) But if Tuscany was unable
to punish the offender, it could afford reparation
to the parties who were the sufferers. He (Lord
Derby) had nothing to say against Mr. Mather's
acceptance of a pecuniary compensation. Mr. Mather had
demanded what was impossible ; for he had required Tus-
cany to do what by treaty it had pledged itself not to do;
and a pecuniary compensation was the only thing left. It
might have been more judicious, if the noble earl had fixed
at once, if that could have been done, upon some
flied sum which he might have demanded; but,
the Lord Chief Justice himself had admitted that
nothing could be mote uncertain than the verdict of a jury
in such a case; and therefore the noble earl having cut
down the exorbitant claims, had fixed upon a sum which he
intended to demand as an acknowledgment of the principle
of responsibility—not as a matter of favour, but as a right
upon which he might insist by the law of nations. In the
whole course of his proceedings, he (the Earl of Derby)
avowed that he was as fully sail entirely responsible as his
noble friend, for nut one of tho steps which he bad taken
was adopted without his full knowledge and consent; and
he (Lord Derby) was therefore just as open to censure, if
any were deserved, as the noble lord himself. (Hear.)
The fact was his noble friend had insisted throughout
upon the point which was of the greatest importance,
namely, the liability of the Tuscan government, and had
resolved to have a tangible acknowledgment oh that prin-
ciple in the shape of a pecuniary compensation. Upon the
maintenance of that principle he (Lord Derby) was ready
to stake the reputation end existence of her Majesty's go-
vernment. (Cheers.) This recognition by the Tuscan go-
vernment of its responsibility for the safety of the Britesh
subjects in its territories was the point upon which her
Majesty's government had all along insisted, but which
Mr. Scarlett, on his own responsibility, had not merely con-
sented, but volunteered to waive. To this settlement of
the question the government could not give its assent, and
therefore it was that instructions had been sent out to Sir
11. Bulwer to obtain a recognition of that principle; but it
would be impossible at present to lay those instructions be-
fore the house.
After some remarks from Lord STANLEY of Alder:cy
and Earl FITZWILLIAM,
Lord BEAL:MONT withdrew his motion.
Several bills were forwarded a stage, and their lordships
adjourned at a quarter past 12.

HOUSE OF CONIMON3.—MosoAT. JUNE 21.
The SPEAILLIL took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BESINECS.

The Lords' Amendnintst;the Cork Improvement Bill
were considered and agreed to, and other amendments
added.
R 11.1.4 READ A THIRD TIME AND PAN4E.D.—Alltrdeen
Hanimermen Incorporation; Adams's Estate ; Oedling's
Estate ; Leith Exchange Buildinna ; Magdalen College
' (Oxford) Estate; Wes; Middlesex Waterworks; Bills.
The Blanchester and Salford Education Bill was, on the
motion of Mr. BROTHERTUN, further postponed for a
month.