The Express.
London, England, 1852-05-11 00:00:00

EVENING, MAY 11, 1852.

Therefore it nightie au* eldateirile ahp - aohl
take a tee ambeeted view of the guinea Ma the
division of the enenty the ben=
Cobden) would he in for Rh,
say that II would mine him the reasesseadve of a masa
teeny la whisk set an element of appease exists. Imo'
skif by this arrangement the boa. Ember for tin Wept
aat rreesOse in this house r a ponmesat reprermaada.
sayealreinnot et all regret it. I should be very awry te
eso kis akar ; for wherever a man hoe power end helm
our with die peblie I think it it much better the he
theallflff aleapasilla in en aernably Ma Mr Mimed
Osomeas dna Oat hoolsedd 4•1101111 Me pea Ideas In
other smear ad Moen =ie. Liar, hem) Rat, dr,
la dr map nth. the division leace
the lime elf railway= papas of Wending Leeds •in
the esters sr nearlialwilig Marin ; but we propose to
fellow the mare krelligale MN of Me railway throughout,
mad to let Leeds sad he Midst mama in the northern di-
video, la which it naturally belay. It hes been said
thatthe salsa of this &dada hto prevent the awash&
tarns islance from ezatikkg he fair and due authority
irs the senthwa division. Why the soothe= division is so
entirely manneacturing that It wants no aseistanos hem
Leeds whatever ; but by allowing Leah to name fa the
egricultural division we permit that enterprhe sad is
of a great manufacturing town to be at
la a large eultaral district. (Hear, hear.) We prep os
that Leeds stall be, as it mkt to be, the town of dada
in the northern division, leaving to Wakefield, its armor
rival, to be the town of elation for the southern divide..
I mean* these details barns I wish to show that throng-
out we have had as oinister dodge whatever. It remethe
to ate to express to the bras the views which her Xs-
jesty's government have adepted with respect to the two
' other seats that are neat. We have considered that, en
the whole, we anima be guided in the present Instance by
a better priasiple than that which I have endeavoured to
impress apes the horn, and I would remind hon. gentle.
'men that the question we have to consider new is not a
large question of parliamentary reform. (Hear, bear.)
It is a question of apportioning vacant seats according to
our existing parliamentary arrangement.; and I hope that
if ever this subject is discussed, it will be discussed with
this conviction. There may be gentlemen who disapprove
of the present system upon which our constituencies are
bead. These are opinions which they may entertain, and
which I know may be powerfully advocated • but the pre-
=lotion is to be derided with referenee'to the coned-
whia exist. Well, sir, taking as a test of the re-
lative deism of different places to an increase in their repre-
sentation, the degree of representation which they at pre-
sent possess, I find amongstthem very considerable contain-
enein—countics and boroughs. I find the city of Westmin-
ster with a constituency of 14,1300 ; the town of Liverpool,
17,400, and the borough of Lambeth 18,000 ; and these are
respectively supported by a population in Westminster of
241,000; Lambeth, 251,000 ; and Liverpool, 376,000. [Mr.
Reynolds : Dublin 1] In Finsbury, I tied a constituency of
20,000 supported by a population of 323,000. Marelebone
constituency, 19,700 ; population, 370,000 ; the City of
London constituency, 20,700; •.. elation, 127,000; the
Tower Hamlets constituency, 23,111 • population, exceed-
ing 500,000 ; the county of Middlesex constituency, 14,600;
Manchester, 13,000, with a population of 316,000 ; and the
meaty of South Lancashire, with a constituency of 21,650,
sad • population of between 600,000 and 600,000. Taking
ell them into consideration, and remembering that
Is the counties the qualification for occupiers a 601.,
sad that the constituencies would show a larger comparative
purdahs than in the towns, where the qualification is
amdlar—taking, also, into consideration in the counties the
Vern surplus population, and the permanent national
megilh which must not be omitted from our consideration,
Eallaiejhesty's government have naive/ to recommend to
here to apportion the
.other two members to South
ire. (An boa. member—" Whew I" Laugl.ter,
mad "Hear, hear.") The house will recollect that
Is recommending the appertionmeat of these four
role le the North Riding sad loath LeArsthin we are
lidadingia those two counties scares of towns four times
Wye then your Budburies and St. Albans. (Cheers.) If
Make the population of South Lancashire and the West
you will find 1,400,000 persons directly or indirectly
Sepaseated by fear members, whom we propose shall be re-
planned eight. (Hear, hear.) If you look to the sur-
d the greatest boroughs which have been
alder your consideration, you will not find any of
this equal either the surplus political population of
Ma4iviara
irk Riding or South Lancashire. You will not find
nolo, or three, or four of your great constituencies that,
together, would equal the united borough papule-
gen of the West Riding and South Lancashire. (Hear,
bar.) For the lame reasons, then, as in Yorkshire, end in
order that the minority shall be represented—whether it be
liberal ea conservative, whether agricultural or manefactur-
ing—we propose that South Lancashire shall also be divided.
Thu division in South Lancashire is extremely =
dank Lancashire consists of two huadrede—the k
of Baron and that of West Derby. In the hundred of
Wind is found the flourishing city of Manchester; in that
of West Derby is the famous port of Liverpool. (Hear,
laser.) That is a simple and a legal line of deenureatioa •
aad the result will bo a constituency of 12,009 fee the hme!
deed of Belford, and 9,600 for West Derby. There an de-
tails apse the table of the house which I perhaps 'NOS
to lowa upon, but probably the house will exams that W
the resat I have endeavoured to plan before the kenos
elearty the intention of the government---to show that the
mine esasiderstions which the gonerraren in a Ilia of
the stamen Wardell% bet ethos thillthothl•se... r-off
Then kap pankwouggendeasuppsetel byeammesin etas -
aim sisrist to rapeet—whia - hive not fairly eonsidered,
Whatever may be its fate, is making this propositica we
me earned that we have only done that which our in-
cumbent upon us as animate of the mown. We feel that
it is of the utmost impthamee that the ernaltutienal ream-
se
ben of the hou should ho completed before the appeal to
the countrl—(hear, beer)—that the continuous and syste- '
made deficiency in our namben is perilous to the welfare'
of the country and to the honour of this house—(a laugh)—
end that the prepaid we sow make is one that wid be
rationed by paths 'paha will contribute to the
value of the messiunity, and will tend to increase the
sal* mad hare of the Howe of Commons. (Hear,
heMr. GLADSTONE imputed no sinister motives to go-
vernment, nor did he accuse the Chancellor of the Exche-
gar a aftempg a surprise, but reminded the house that
Ida original objection was that the constitutional course for
perlimmat to adept was to obtain a pledge heat ministers
Raise masoures bat these of absents nemosity Wald be
brought derwerdt_a category in which this proposal could
sot be slam& He should not join issue on the merits of
' the bill, nor should he move a negative to it, but merely
that the house should pass to the orders of the day. He
then aged that is • moribund parliament a ministry with-
I oat ths madames of the home was bringing forward amea-
eare to which, be coahmi4 the essaitutional course was
he and louse to refuse adalusias. He not only admitted
Oa there was ao magic In the number 668, but con
laded tribe that it bed me beds in law, nor any prescrip-
tion whisk mould be pleaded is is bealeend that the limit
of asubspi 1 a that Low our manly &quake of opinion
end orisaindey. The asatinee fre denlaad sad Ironed
bad be. seeded by acts of taloa, bat then was so ale for
Meta number of the house. Mr. Disraeli had,
Mwtem~maim out no ease. He the. relined to previous
=Meed•begatenernemt as to the erneures to be in-
side/COM as eabematial 'understanding ob-
tained frodiginanimat woo that none were to be brought
ill bat them pdhemediste agesey, ad this understanding
woo •obtriaol •by podament in fallasent of in duty
to thisosegrat of esanaereial policy
I to be brought to pre-
:re sad lad law duty was the reason
why the majority of Ile Mare required an early.diseolu-
den. They were are sentsat to leave the principles to
which they were pledged to the chapter of sea-,
dean, or to the eteemen who were
avowedly opposed to dim. our to obtain the
&delve stadia ef the eseriay, sad le bring ban the
asesidemy of the restitution isto its regular weeldog order.
Re dire misted eat thee Oen were grave lassavenenees
slashed is the bdaging Miran of this quake at such
a dem Zest bean a dimalatke it was sod dilleelt for
amahere to gin a dispodisesto affielhoilleti te wadi a
sakiestaghtutt asides Mir Sandia -an an of
at • hi .he egyeasbid
nods boa& Ittlompriga' to be baksta_priese
Igo eraryear So mum stow might the 'mem to be
dodged by amity aleasil pertles, lea rnieed are
ad again. And, 1110.1111111•11 V• irellise aMisft to high sad
Oil a BMW as nannalsama ought Whillealthited by
a fa the itil• eaddesse of the house, sad oews•
esaid ad* A pram that they hod had • fair
haft kr lbek dins. Ide would set prejudgWMe the
igaralea 411 dill deka a Mesta et
mat, ar nerereseallei ulna ell of Ale age
tom te, bat all he cialaded•fbr Arse; at they
11111118wiledID a oohs coaddenden, which it was now
li to glee Sash parties. sad others interested in
aroals ndisisa a iii.ztta. would 'assuredly not be
althea" with its Imiii of in the way proposed.
Meespitaladag hie wejumente, Mr. Olatindoe Milked that
ides there. was me essetitutioul plea to be made one
be the solnea• (WM* was bit:awed ender meet:
eirseeselesees), it was the duty oil
I. pp me straight to a dissolution. (Hear.)
ilinitne Mond that the house should pan to the oldie 1
'ti
l mapas. me or rising, the house divided, whoa.
ibe
Fr the the easadmeat
B
Afitjtty 'gall:nth. goveinment preposition —BO
MILITIA BILL.
The house then west into eon:antes an the Militia Bill.
On the motion that dare 7 as amended should stand
part of the bill,
Mr. HUME said be should take the sense of the house
Genet "'

iiiiianse.
Alter after nerds from Mr. WALPOLB,
The been use &eared fes a division on the alms. bat
none teak sheen . Oa our entrants, to the gallery,
Mr. BMZOMT was addressing the committee. He said
that eleemestasent had
The
changed sines they last din-
ers& this emease. The noble lord the member for the
Ct 0( Laude, mid that he did not think these was any
=witty for.thsebtli, and that he bad no fear of immediate
Ammar ; and the ee is lord at the head of the Repeat le.
memient had: nab= Saturday night a speech which wee
essentially a pew speech. (Hem. hear.) Besides, the
lien bon. inglemen by withdrawing the ballot fee t year
bed given the militia force all the character of ea emu of
reserve, wise were therefore to be regarded as tinge et the
only. that they received a larger hounty Yd were only
to spend a certain time in training instead of Wog perma-
nently embodied. (Ilear.) If these cireunistanem kad been
known when the bill was fret submitted to the esasideration
of the house he was distinctly of opinion that it would not
have been received with as much favour and considera-
tion as it had met with under the different circumstances

ander which it was propeas• (Mar boar.) In addition
'M all. thief another aot usinpertaat ejlwmscanal had just
lahomplass. He would arst say that the division to which
es beam bad kid ow INSI userpostod by the govern-
Mat; he walla SS SISS that it was unsought for
hp the govsrment. he he the object of the go-
sweenans arm ma Mil lha t into which the
the
dalianant Jodi is yid as sum as y
sseuesey beim on sisslsaiL Sulk beim the state
SI dip", Ihs right Ms. pollsos Ms Cbsosslier of the
dir MO thigertnat cha-
gestlmmin Ile auster he
Ibsilligelliod7ANlllM. —owed an emesamst, and lasso
spa Mr braesea hroslliley to • hellos. Ile believed
OM soh • aiddiolattss was sagesseasmed with reumd
Is a moms
.2.01 poessoist. (Hear, bear.) •
Er211:lO ore=raluill :::at`'rlit
theiddisd member et dis ',MONO Islusameed, thus
petty elowing that the gosmome ad BM ashy
what was called the confidence of the RADS 0111111110 S
Ile wished to all attention to the speech of the
Earl of Derby on Saturday last. (Hear, hear.) In that
speech the noble earl had given the country the strongest
reasons for believing that between this country and every
other country, and especially between this country and
Prance, there was no question in dispute which could re-
quire or justify the raising and training of forces in this
country. (Hear, hear.) And if he referred to the speech of
the French ambassador, who spoke on that occasion, nut
only for his own country, but as the representative of the
entire corps diploniatique, it was clear that foreign nations
were equally anxious to see peace preserved. (Hear, hear.)
Unless it could be shown that the Earl of Irby and the
French ambassador were persons who could not be trusted,
they had the most satisfactory and explicit assurances that
them were no disputes between this country and foreign
countries, but on the contrary, that there was the most per-
fect amity and confidence between this country and France
and all tho nations of tho world. He hoped, there-
fore, that the government would postpone the measure, in
order that it might have a better consideration from them
during the recess, and that it might have a more impartial
and ;deliberate consideration from parliament after the
election. (Hear) But if the right hon. gentleman would not
accede to this he hoped at least that he would consent to
postpone it till Thursday or Friday, and that the question
should in the meantime he brought under the consideration
of a cabinet council, for he would not so insult the good
sense and even the patriotism of the government, as ho
supposed that they actually wished under the present cir-
cumstances that this bill should become law. (Hear, hear.)
It was one of those unfortunate measures which govern-
ments did sometimes leave behind them to their successors,
and** present government would act wisely in abandoning
it at born he the present session. (Hear, hear.) He, and
these who weed with him, representing a large amount of
opinion elsewhere which was hostile to the measure, felt
Amend In 'ppm the further program of so obnoxious •
swam (Hear hear.)
After a few words: from Mr. BELL,
Mr. J. W. FOX said that when two governments in sue-
amiss pressed the measure upon the consideration of par-
Ikeinuat, it might have induced many members to suppose
that there was some necessity for it. But no longer than
two nights ago the noble lord (Russell) declared that there
mono urgency, that he had no fears of immediate danger,
and that he had no suspicion of hostile designs on the part
of France. (Hear, hear.) Now, if such danger existed the
noble lord must have known of it. How did the matter
stand with respect to the government which succeeded ?
They had the conjoint assurance of two governments, not
that this was • measure of urgency, but that it was not a
measure of urgency ; and he thought the inevitable conclu-
sion from this was, that no danger would be incurred by
waiting till a new parliament assembled. On grenade of
obvious policy and prudence he thought the government
should accede to this suggestion for a postponement.
Mr. WALPOLE said, as regarded the question of
urgency, he must observe that while men could
not be procured by ballot in less than three
or four months, they might be obtained by volun-
tary enlistment in as many weeks-. The postponement of
**ballot was therefore no reason for supposing that, in the
view of the government, the urgency of the measure was at
all diminished. He hoped they would now be able to go
en with the bill. This clause had already been discussed
for two or three evenings, and everything had been said
that could be said upon it.
Mr. HUME said his ground of opposition was this, that
in a parliament which would expire in a few weeks, they
were not justified in incurring an expenditure of half a
million for bounties to establish a permanent army of re-
Serve.
Mr. FORBES could not understand what the duration
of the present parliament had to do with the safety of the
country. They were bound to take care that the defame
were left by them in a proper condition.
Mr. WAX LEY said the position of the government was
very much changed by the vote of that evening. 'they bad
lately been luxuriating in majorities apparently so subser-
vient that they could calculate upon them at any time.
They were now undeceived. In his opinion they would
shad better with the country by not pressing the bill than
by peneveting. If they pressed it forward and passed it
by tyrannical majorities, they would not be able to stand
the questioning which they would have at the hustings. He
would thereto,* move that the chairman do report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. WALPOLE most repeat that be declined to enter
into a discussion on the principle of the bill, the proper time
for which would be on the third reading.
Mr. ELLIS said that, believing the measure to be a most
mischievous one, he should make no apology for endeavour-
ing by every means to throw it out.
Mr. NEWDEGAI'E said, that as the hon. member for
Finsbury had alluded to the division which had just taken
place, he must remark, that it might with propriety be de-
signated a map division. (A laugh.) When it occurred
a great number of the supporters of the government had
left the house without the slightest notion that the division
WAS about to take place. He himself had great difficulty in
getting into the house, and he met many friends in the
lobby who were in a consternation at having been excluded.
He would therefore make the hon. member (Mr. Wakley)
a present of that division. (" Hear, hear," from the minis-
terial benches.) The house could not be surprised at the
opposition of the hon. member for Leicester (Mr. Ellis), as
he deprecated an appeal to arms in any case.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished the house to understand this
snap division. (" Hear, hear," from the oppoaitinn benches.)
He himself was surprised by the division taking place so
early, and the effect was that he was excluded. Now, what
were the numbers? 234 against the motion, and 148 in
favour of it; and, the pairs being 80, the entire number of
votes was 462. That was a curious snap division. (Hear,
hear.) The feeling of the majority was, he believed, that
the business of that house at the present time was simply
to pass such measures as were necessary for the good go-
vernment of the country. The right hop. gentleman (Mr.
Disraeli) was not pursuing a straightforward course, and
could not govern the country on his own principles. In
a constitutional point of view he was bound to withdraw
this bill, and to content himself with passing the Mutiny
Bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that, as the hon. and learned
gentleman was shut out, he would not say anything more
about the division, except that it was a moot point.
Mr. REYNOLDS did not see any necessity for the
.boa. gentleman's second speech. He had certainly not
'holm that 462 members did net constitute a large house.
An hon. and learned gentleman (Ms. Whiteside) had made
an eloquent speech in favour of the bill but he was MN
English than the English themselves, for he said nothhw
could save the empire but a heroic British militia. He said
nothing about the Enniskillen dragoons, and did not think
it necessary to have a militia fur Ireland. Of all the un-
warrantable measures he had ever known, this was the
most unwarrantable. lie respected majorities, but majorities
were sometimes +mesh and he con that the majority
for this bill was than it would loes boa by its giving
great patronage to ' of
After a few worda tree' . Mowatt, Mr.
S. Crawford, Mr. W. Brews, wed Mr. . Thompson
The committee divided on thomadiss, that the chairman

report progress :
86
ye*
Noes. 166
Majority —7l
In answer to some observadans whisk Mr..Hoto bad
made before the gallery was re-openad,
The CHANCELLOR of the RECIIMII3IB denied that
be had evey voted against any grant of messey that might
noseibm for the greater security of the country. He
worms =red to vote against the grant for the payment
addle di to the public creditor ; and he was not pre-
*red to oppose that expenditure, which was required to
I maintain the honour and safety of tho realm. (Hear,
hear.) He hoped that after two night,' debate, the clause
would now be agreed to.
Mr. 11 VILE said the right hon. gentleman was quits cor.
gears but he had mot shows that the measure was necessary
either for the boar or the safety of the country. (Cries
al "Oh," and ran* Interruption) He should certainly
.1110 v• that the Mess. resew, in order that he might report
I. the Speakee U ibis enninet was persisted in, for he was
resolved not to be bullied. (Cries of "Oh," sad laughter.)
jiti only wished tied barnald put the blister where it ought to
ho,
and make those wbo supported the bill pay fur it.
roat laughter and chars.)
Theeomisittas then divided ow Claus 7 :•-•
API r llll
Ness. IS
11 ty
The dame woe then agreed to.
Clause 8. Quotas of witantios to be flied by order in
council.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to kaow what were to be the
eaumptiaas, and what the liabilities, under this clause. He
thought that both should be stated in the schedules of the
bill.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the liabilities sad exemptions
would be die same es tiled by 43 Geo. 111.
After • short conversation,
Lord SEYMOU R suggested the postponement of all the
compulsory clauses, and this among the rest. TM right
hon. gentlentea said that this act foUuwed the 43rd Gm 111.,
but there was a difference in the ages specified iu each set.
It could hardly be said, therefore, that this strictly fol.
loweu the 43rd Geo. 111
Mr. WALPOLE denied that there was anything compul-
sory in this dame. If they did not mean to repeal the 13rd
(l. o. 111., they must retain this clause.
After a conversation,
Mr. WALPOLE, iu answer to Sir 0. Grey, said he con-
ceived the Bth dame would only be necessary in the event
of a ballot. (Hear, bear.) Ile thought it desirable that
when a county had luruished its proper number of volun-
teers, it should be allowed to furnish a further number to
bo allotted to some other county.
Sir C. WOOD said there was a discrepancy between the
the statements of the Attorney General and of the right

hon. the Home Secretary. It Wu desirable the enmmittee
should know what were the intentions of the government--
whether they meant to raise more than a certain number of
volunteers in each county.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the first nine clauses of the
bill provided for the raising of the force by ballot ; clauses
10 to 15 related to volunteers ; the remaining clauses au.
thorised resort to the ballot where a sufficient number of
volunteers was not obtained.

Sir C. WOOD repeated his question, whether the nom.
ber of volunteers wu to be limited ineach county
Mr. WALPOLE said the volunteers would he raised in
quotas from the counties, where there was a deficiency the
ballot being resorted to. It bad occurred to him that it
might be desirable that counties should furnish a supple-
mentary quota, but that was not provided for in the hales
it stood. There could be no objection to the insertion of •
proviso to that effect.
Mr. 11.0EDUCK asked what would he done where •
county having to contribute —say IW—raised 500 volun-
teers

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said this showed the ne-
cessity of fixing the quota for each county, without which
they could not proceed a single step titlivr by ballot or en-
listment.
Mr. ROEBUCK—Then if Middlesex 14,940 volun-
teers, beton only called on for 5,000, you would not accept
the 3,000 ?

The ATTORNEY•GENERAL said that none would be
raised beyond the quota fired fur each county.
After was discussion, accompanied by criea of " Divide,"
The committee divided :

For the postponement
Against
Majority —ll7
Mr. BRIGHT did not sec that anything wiei to 1w gained
by going on to discuss the clause at Olt hour of the night.
(Oh, oh.) lie should suggest that the words " fit and
liable " should be struck out of the clog-r.
Mr. WALPOLE would not object io :he omission of the
words. (Hear, hear.)
The words were struck out accordingly.
Sir C. WOOD then proposed, in cider to render the
clause clearer, that the following word, should he left out:
" Take into consideration the number of men. fit and liablo
to serve in the militia who are resident in the said several
counties, ridings, and places, and to ascemin and."
The amendment was agreed to.

Mr. MOWATT proposed to add to the clause a proviso,
declaring that no proceedings should 1. taken under it until
after the 31st of December, 18.52.
After some conversation, the proviso was negatived with-
out a division.
The clause was then passed as amended.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Friday.
The following bills passed through committee: The
Turnpike-roads (Ireland); the Belfast Custom House,
and the Commons Enclosure Acts Extension.
The Valuation (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
The following hills were consider. d as amended : Tito
Apprehension of Deserters from Foi clan Ships Bill, sod
the Regulation of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Bill.