The Express.
London, England, 1863-05-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT% r• •
ROUSE OF COMMONS.—WszemsDAY MAY 6.
Kionnlemed from ms's Exproass .
CHEWS RATES COMMUTATION BILL. •
St C. DOUGLAS aid he root for tie purpose M peeper
leg an sineedineon,.that the bill timid be vend a incoad
thee that dey air months. He did not believe that it the
bill went into committee it could be emended in mob •
manner u to give satisfaction to tie bore or the osoolry.
Going into tommittee would only he • mote of Mom sod
then/ore he would ask the bean to ogres to the aimed-

meat
• Lord HENLEY seconded the amendment There could
be so hope of erasing to the principle ad this measure,
and he felt sure that such • measure never Mild be made
satiefactory to the dimenten generally. The hill would
place map y parishes in a worse position than they were in at
present. If the rate were made a fixed charge, no opposition
could is tetanal made in the rate. It would be welds fat
any parishismer to attend a vestry for the purpose. The
effect of the bill would be that the parishioners would be
called upon to pay money over which they would have no
control or management. The machinery of the bill would
be cumbrous and difficult to carry into effect. He would
be happy to mist is any way to settle this questa., and
he tasted if that *told be done it would be better far the
established church, the people, and the diameters, rather
then it should be kept open as a party my. (Hear)
Sir H. STRA.CEY, in supporting the second reeding of
the bill, mid he did not think it was a serious objection to
urgesparst it became the names of the hon. members for
North Werwielmeire and Huntingdonshire were upon the
lack of it
Mr. G. HARDY mid he merely rose to explain that whet
he meant by stating on Wednesday last that the clew
would rather be kept in hot water, was that they would I
rather halm)! is that position than throws into the fire '
about to be prepared for them by the bog. baronet oppo-
site. As to the bill itself, he was anxious to date that in
his opinion there was not the slightest chance of its settling
the quangos at prsent. That was his conviction, and be
was glad he had been called to • meeting elsewhere, end
that he wild sot take further part in this dircumice.
Si, G. GREY said he gave the bon. member for North
Warwiokshire credit for the best motives in bringing fon
ward this bill, but he wee afraid the bill did not hold out
such prospects for the settlement of the question as to
'Wealthe home to give it a second reading. The eoetreit
between the appearance of the house today sad what it
was last Wednesday showed that this was not looked upea
as a practical measure, and he did not think that any bens.
finial mina would fallow from its being referred to • select
calamities.
Sir S. • NORTHOOTE rose to appeal to the hum
member for North Warrrickihire not to press this bill to •
division. it waesterly impossible to arrive at • seetlemeet
of the church rate question by this bill, and it would
be • waste of time to open a controversy on
the subject which might list the reominder of the session,
and after all would lead to no practical remelt At the slut
• Voss there weft may members who would be ext.:wady
• semi to vole spied the wad reading. The pimple of
tip bill was teatimes the rate into • charge on realprir
party, bat what were they to do in the case of parishes
. where there bad been no church rates for a long time?
Were they to exempt those parishes or not? If the
d safer were a charge upon laid, why exempt any podlettl
• the had! He treated they world be spared the secemitY
a alai' for or *past the bill. At the mese time if e
division did aka place he should vote for the aeooed real
lag beanie be thought it had been brought forward with
as honed desire to settle the question satidactorily.
Mr. MILLS said the question bad been asked whit we
the hardship of church rota upon diseenters. The hard/
shift wait that lariat bpey for the moppet, of their out
saisidena sad their own- chapet, they bad also to pay fog
• the carrying a of the service of the chureb. The- heel
Meabbief wag ocletight in taming that the church rate wail
• charge on property; it was a charge on persons, end • the
remedy in the goeles‘Wioal courts was against the person
and not spirt the property. The charge of 2d. in the
pound would produce 700,0001. a year.
lir. SCOOBFIRLD aid he supported church rates be.
canoe they were asaistry, in his opinion,
churches from falls' kilo docli VamplEpaie
might be cited to build a chore or tore one w it
had fallen into decay„but the voluntary • • failed to
supply fends to anent I church falling into decay. With
rapid to this ha after the exoreeslon of opinion on the
part al the ham, he thought the hoe. member would de
well to withdraw it, but if it were premed to • division he
&mad rat. for it.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he represented the haw of
a greet many perms whe were very desirous that this
question should be settled, and therefore he could sot with*
draw the bill.
The house OM divided, when there appeared :
For the second reading
Against it
The bill wits theeefere Sat
CHURCH RATES REDEMPTION BILL. •
Mr. ALCOCK, to toodia the seeped reading of this bill,
said thoegh tee Ott of it was so like that of the bill which
, the house hest jest. rejected, the bill was of a different
lobareeter. The she of the bill just rejected was ambitions
it was to settle the question of church rates. The object
of this bill wee merely to enable landowners to redeem the
church rate on the same principle as they were now enabled
to miens the lard tax.
Mr. EVANS seconded. The bill, if it did so great good,
would do no peat harm. They had beard a peat deal of
' miasma, but be was afraid from what passed
last Wednesday cad again to-day, the house was not disposed
roodprebeativ• measure, and therefore it might be
pm edneasore which was not of so comprehensive •
. -
NEWDEGATE aid he bad hoped that the house
would have read both his bill and this bill • toad time,
and that they wredd .care both been referred to a taloa
commits.. • right observe that this hill had been
before the idea ealusition of the House of Lords, and
from the seeeptim it the.. met with he did set think it
likely it went prim that beam. He traded the house
weuM saw crest so egeeetrolled a power as was sug-
gested by the bill of the hon. member.
Mr. DODSON supported the bill because be was anxious
to me the question settled on equitable terms.
Sir 0. GREY thought it was desirable that facilities
• should be gives for the voluntary commutation of church
ratio but he feared this bill would require great mediae'.
ties before it could become law. He had no objection to
the staid reading, but he mast repeat that the measure
would require extensive alteration with regard to the
erbitrary power proposed to be given by it to the Charity

Xr. D. GRIFFITH opposed Cm second reeding.
Mr. BRISCOE would give his cordial support to the MIL
Then were sertainly objection, in the details, but tbey
could sadly be removed to committee.
The bow divided, whea the numliers were :
For tbe .woad reading
Agaisat it
The LIB Its cassegaitutly lout.
SECURITY FROM VIOLENCE BILL—REVIVAL OF
THE LASH.
The hawse went into committee upoc this 1:411.

•
On dame 1,
PLACOCICE moved in line 2 after troy* to in-
sert " provided any previous conviction for felony be proved
wiled him.' His object WAS that corporal punishment,
rc► wu of a brutalising tendency, should only be applied
after the commission of second offences At the prompt
time sufficient distinction wu not made between Hrst and
second offence&

Mr. ADDETUJSY said that the chief object of punish-
meat was to stop crime. He had a finnconvietiou that the
pasishamat whisk)* the existing statutes wee provided for
thews aims was not sufficient to stop them. (Hear, hear.)
He tberefore objected to the amendment of the hob.
member.

KING objected to the infliction of corporal pu-
nishment Os the ground that it did not deter from crime.
Mr. E'YANB supported the amendment.
Mr. KNIGFITLEY said that it appeared from the amend-
ment that a garotter was not to be punished vita he had
stmegied • gram.
Mr. CLAY thought that the bill was a piece of excep-
tional legislation. It was introduced to prevent a state of
mime which had passed away, and he therefore musidered
satoreassary.
Sir NORTHOOTE mid that the amendment would
seitioasly irspule the operation of the bill, and nuke it ap-
pear to he merely a 0066 of panic legislation. He trusted
the hon. member would withdrew his motto..
Mr. PULLER entirely agreed with the mover of the
amendment.

Mr. BENTLNLIC thought the amendment was nothing
lem than as theounisement to a man who bed oonintitted
so act of violence to go and eouirsit another. (Flaw, bear.)
Mr. MARSH said he bad had great experience on the
enbjegt—(laughter)- afid hie opinion was that immoral
punishment was the beat in the world. Depend nion it
if they wished to put down wetting there was nothing
Wee the punishment proposed by the bill. Mete.)
Colonel NORTH also opposed the amendment.
Lord H. VANE thought that for the mime of violence
flogging ought to be applied in the first instance. There
Ins so gradatiee in math • ease. It was NO offence
whirl at 000 s placed • person in the category of extreme
sMlanr. (Hear. hear.)
INT M. LEIGHTON erns of opinion that flogging was by
for the best punishment in all instances of cello's of
violence.
Upon • division the numbers were:
For the ansenarincot
• Asa
- - - -

mr3 MITFORD moved io Pegs 2. Hoe Z. to have out
" peloliely" is order that the punishment of whipping
ah logicial in private.
r be
ALIDEILIAY opposed the amendment, which was
negitived.
Mr. HUNT inquired whether the maximum of 150 Whets
waste be tiniktod at oom or io mowed Punishments, sod
It so how arose were to be indicted each time ?
15:41.1DIVERtgt mid that 150 lashes would be divided
latp tO to be fedieted at time different periods
• Mr. SiiIGHTLEY moved after " °Roeder " to isloart
• "the ieetenniont at punishment shall he that which is used
in for navy." Hilted the greatest respect tot • birch rod,
with which he behoved Oil penisbeiest was to be indicted.
but hi did not think it adequate for the represeion of