The Express.
London, England, 1852-06-04 00:00:00

fits to whisk thou were wept

going into committee et onglgiri
wen of such a nature that no
the present Mg.% from their •• . ,
tlse yam time, he was beau* J
as the motion days wee
government Missile, and the •
pendent members of bringing •• bottom ha
which they took an interest were Minn, metier
interposed as emeodneen en going rain sin*
emu. (Hear, hear.) He would call attenelm Weems of
the lending measures they were called 1E bysetli=-
.lernment iu the vrder paper of the In
Sir Jam ,a then entered ei length .of 41111, eon-
the ogler paper, and showed that in limileasestz2
bringing in and keeping biker the bow omontree
were not of urgent nemesity (the Law Heim Bills swap
nally),and the disevoisaof wbielyas they wile net be panel
in the resift swoloo, would boo bat a wale at thaw=
right hos. aentiama bed Waled to no sea. ims.
Wl—the New issilend Goverment Bill. The right has.
baronet the Senetary of State tee the Colonies had given
him a private intimation that an arrangement which be (Sir
J. Graham) thought had been fined to pairs, OM May-
nooth discussion till to-morrow was not to be
end that. instead of the Maynooth debate, thong,
Bill would be taken in the morning sitting ; earl}, ►using
bad means of communicating with the right has. pottootaa,
he had expressed an objection to a measure of look gran
importance being taken at a morning sitting, when away
hon. members who took a deep interest in the subject being
engaged in committees upataire, could not be present.
Many of those committees were engaged on inquiries of ur-
gent and psrameunt consequence—u the committee on the
East India Company's charter, the committee which
was carrying on an inquiry closely connected with the
good • government of Ireland, via., the committee on
crime and outrage in that country; and with such coin.
mittees sitting, to take a bill like the New Zealand Govern-
ment Bill at a morning sitting without notice, would be to
render it impossible for the house to giro to the measure
that attention which it deserved. (Hear, hear.) There was
another bill, relating to our Australian colonies and in-
volving important principles in regard to the appropriation
of the hereditary and casual revenues, which had been read
titan without explanation. The house would ace
that the, question of these revenues, while they might have
been regarded as of secondary importance some time ago,
bad in coneequence of recent circumstances which had oc-
curred in South Australia become of primary importance.
Relative to the church in the colonies, there were two bills
before the house—the Colonial Bishoprics Dill, and that
relating to the subdivision of the Bishop of Quebec's die-
ceee—a question which excited greet interest in Canada.
There eat another bill relating to New Zealand—making
Ere bills of seat importance with respect to the colonies.
(Hear, hear.) He would neat look at the renewal bills,
which were really urgent, as it was impossible to avoid
coming to some decision on them. First, there was the re-
newal of the Poor Law Board, both in England and Ire-
land, for which there were separate bills. Then there was
a bill to which the late government attached the greatest
importance. the bill for the prevention of crime and out-
rage in Ireland expired at the end of the present session,
and no steps had Men taken to renew it. There was a no.
tine on the paper for the introduction of a bill by the Attor-
ney-General for Ireland ; but it was not for a renewal of
that set, but a bill for the consolidation and amendment of
21 acts relating to Ireland. The Incumbered Estates Aet
also expired this session; and, if it were thought expedient
to renew it, it must be done this session. Then, there had

been produced by the Bolted of Admiralty an claire altera-
tion us t :e system of navy pay, which called for the die-
cusston of the house. In other departments important mea-
sures had been originated, which required to be discussed.
A bill had been introduced for amending the Metropolitan
Buildings Act by the noble lord at the head of the Woods
and Forests. That set contained 257 clause*, and the bill
introduced to amend A contained 79 clauses. (Hear, hear.)
[ Then there was • bill relating to intramural interment.,
the who,e scheme of which, he thought, had been discussed
Med settled last session ; but a bill had been introduced by
As liibie lord (J. Manners) which entirely subverted the
Sonar measure. (Bear, hear.) Then there was • bill for '
the bitter supply of the metropolis with water, which had
ban before a select committee, but which, if uistumed in
that how, he was satisfied would occupy a great length of
time. There were other bills having reference to local
improvements—the act constituting the Commissioners of
I Sewers, also expired ; sod the bill to renew it was sot yet
brought forward. (Hear, hear.) How did they stand
with respect to supply ? There were 200 votes in supply
t to be taken, and the hon. member for Youghal
Mr. Asetey) had given notice to oppose 40 of them.
st Hear, hear," and laughter.) it wu the 3rd of June—
was said to be desiruble that they should bring their
labours to an early close—and be had nut yet gone through
the list of the various subjects which pressed on their con-
sideration. Surely the time had arrived when it was not
unreasonable to ask of the government what they intended
to do. (Cheers.) They had bad time to consider the state
of affairs; he wished to know what were the measures they
Would still press on the consideration of the house, and in
what order they would take those measures ? (Hear, hear.)
Ile felt strongly upon this subject. Ile had the greatest
apprelieusion that, if trier did not take care, they should
bring the repress 'native system itself into disrepute. ((fear,
hear.) It would appear as though they could not transact
business, and that, even when the business was before them
and the debate was closed, they could not come to a deci
siun upon the question. (Choers.) Ile alluded especially
to that question about the Maynooth inquiry, which had
been twice before them, and which the govern-
ment was about to bring forward again. The hon.
gentleman (Mr. Soner) who brought forward
that motion had admitted that, for every practical
purpose, the motion Rat useless. (Cheers.) He admitted
that any inquiry, in the present session, was impossible.
(Hear. hear.) The inquiry must be fruitless ; and the die-
cussiou of the subject he believed to be fraught with the
greatest evil to the peace, prosperity, and concord of this
country. (Cheers.) Notwithstanding the present state of
affairs, this discussion was still, with the consent of govern.
ment, to go on. (Hear, hear.) By .taking it at a morning
sitting, they would come to no demon ; and the difficulty
would be aggravated by the resolutions adopted the other
day, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
for it was resolved that when • debate should not be con-
cluded by a division, by four o'clock at the latest,—the mo-
ment the clock pointed to four the debate should clout,
and the subject should he put at the bottom of the list of
orders for the day ; the effect of which would only be to
cause adjournments of various subjects from time to time.
lie did not deprecate the house coming to a division on
this motion; what he deprecated was, these endless discus-
sions without • division. (Hear, hear.) The question
would never he terminated in the present ses-
sion by • morning sitting. It would occupy
morning after morning ; and, if the discussion
went on in that way, discord would be increased, the
public interest would suffer, and no possible good could
arise. (Cheers.) If the government were of o pinion that
it was for the public good that the question should he dis-
cussed and decided in :he present state of the public busi-
ness, it was essential that they should make some arrange-
ment for disposing of it. With the utmost respect and re-
gard for the reputation of that representative assembly, he
did feel that the course they were now pursuing could, not
but be injurious, and that the reputation of that assembly,
which had been the great landmark of representative go
vernments, and the great symbol of representative assem-
blies throughout the world, would be brought iota disrepute '
by their conduct. (Hear, hear.) He would ask the right
bon. leader of the house to state, on the part of the govern-
ment, what were the measures they still meant to press on
the attention of the house, and in what order they intended
to take them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPOONER wished to put the right hon. baronet
right on one point. lie had represented him (Mr. Spooner)
as admitting the- there eou'ol be no practical remit from
the carrying of big motion.
84 J. GRAHAM—I. did not say that. I said that the
inquiry, if agreed to be nadertiken this maims, must be
fruitless.
Mr. SPOONER admitted that they could not enter into
the inquiry. (Loud cheers from the opposition.) But
there was something elm beyond an inquiry ; he wanted to
know the determi.,ation of the house, whether the subject
of Maynooth was worthy an inquiry, and be wished te
have a division on that point. The country called for it, and
he fur one would throw no obstacle in the way of a division '
at the end of the debate on Tuesday, for he would give up
his right of reply. (A laugh.)
Mr. STANFORD said he had givennotioe, on going into
committee of supply, to call the attention of the house to
the demoralising and ruinous effects of the numerous low
gambling-houses in all parts of the metropolis, called
betting-shops; but if other has, members who had motions
on the paper would consent to withdraw them he would
do the same, in the hope of having emote favourable oppor-
tunity of bringing his motion forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would, in the interval between that time and
Monday, consider the statement made by the right hon.
baronet. It deserved the most serious attention of the go-
vernment. (Hear, hear.) lie certainly could not wonder
that the government should expect the bills which they
brought before the house to pus us so short a time ; but his
experience showed that, about that time of the year, there
was such a hustling of measures of different kinds, that it
breaste very difficult to carry through a number of mea-
sures. (Hear, hear.) But this year, above all others, it
was essential that the time of the house should not be taken
up with measures which lad really no practical use.
(Cheers.) The hon. member (Mr. Spooner) said he wished
to have • decision of the house on the question whether or
not there should he an inquiry into the system of education
pursued at Maynooth. But that was not the question
which he had asked the house to decide. (Cheers.) If the
hon. member would propose such a motion, the house
Imight decide spanit ; but what be was about to propree
was, that on the Bth of June (next Tuesday), the house
should resolve to inquire by a select committee into the sys.
' tens of Maynooth. (Hese, hear.) Everybody must see
that that was a pestle diff motion. (Hear, hear.) One
l lon. gentleman might say—" It is useless appointing a w-
het committee at this time of the year, though, had the mo-
tioa for inquiry been mode three months earlier, I might
have Imported it." Another might say, as he (Lord J.
Hassell) was disposed to do—egn ring eith the suggestion
' of the right bon. member for the Uaivenity of Cambridge
(Mr. Cloulburn)—that it would be much better for the in-
quiry to be conducted by those means which the crown bail
at its disposal, Tether than by a seleet committee of that
',num. I Hear, hear.) Others might vote against the in-
ralty, totally irrespective of that general abetted question,
whether or we it was desirable to inquire into the education
lot Maynooth. So that when the hon. gentleman tepee-
s, oo a 'hit as tiu• question he did not represent It corn etly.
(IL sr, hear.) U-oi, theu issue he (Lord John) should wit
li.•,i.•peeil to deride on 'fuetelny n' st ; on the centre, y, he
should think it his duty to explain his reasons for thinking
that that was not the qualities, sad that, if there was to be

enp/t4.
The mmee assess' - many more topics for
diseussion, thus did naval and military estimates, and
it was therefore Is brmspeeted that their consideration
weld give rise *malls discussion. But if the right hon.
gassMeasan Maid la premed with them, he would find it
advisable le amoeba days without any interruption, on
widish the seinattse of supply should sit, so that the house
might be easbiall, after disposing of the intervening mo-
dems, to ge isle eiemmittee and conaider the various votes
eabmitnA to it.
T CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER &aid it was
ails islgtiea, neat Monday, to have stated the views of the
I=lll
ndonerany with rtwpeet to the conduct of the
the house; and after the observation that had
bag made, aad seeing the state of the public business, he
Man i *sit, of course, until Monday before making that
dOessist. He would merely say now, that, considering the
Wiwi before thous, be did not think it absolutely impos-
sible kit them to assasaglish all that was necewry. The
MIAS Mid bad siessielved what be had said about the
issiatiese of siely. He had no wish for • moment to de-
=tha inry Bosse discussion on the items to be brought
be ammittes. It would be moat more oionable and

Improper to expect that there should not be that full discus-
sion. All he did deprecate was that hon. gentlemen should,
under present circumstances, take advantage of the com-
mittee of supply, and bring forward questions which, how-
ever important, were not urgent, and had no practical re-
ference to supply itself. Ile had followed the policy recom-
mended by the noble lord as to appointing the committee.
The moment the Militia Bill was carried, he commenced
with committees of supply, and he intended to Furore the
same course. He hoped they should be in committee of
supply every day on which the rules of the house enabled
them to be to; and no Monday next he should take the op-
portunity of making a general statement as to the business
before the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HOUSMAN asked whether the Colonial Bishopric
Bills would be proceeded with after the Committee of
Supply, or whether, as the government intended to legis-
late on the subject next session, and as these bills were
strongly opposed, they would not now proceed with them ?
Mr. SCULLY asked if certain bills, given notice of by
the Attorney-Oenerol for Ireland, would be introduced at
an unseasonable hour of the night ? (Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he did
not anticipate that they should go into any business that
night, except supply. Certainly, he should not bring for-
ward any order of the day at a late hour. Ile wished to
avail himself of so much time as possible for the Committee
of Supply ; any further statement he would defer till
Monday.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL repeated the question put by
Mr. Scully.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
not the intention of the government t proceed with any
husinem after 12 o'clock that would lead to any discussion
whatever. _ _ _

111 SWEET to Mr. OSBORNE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
papers connected with the case of Mr. Slather would be
laid on the table next day.
Sir J. PAKINOTON stated, in answer to Sir E. N.
Buxton, that the New Zealand Bill woull he proceeded
with on Friday evening.
The house then went into Committee of Supply (Mr.
BERNAL in the chair) on the
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
On the first vote of 113,4701., for the maintenance and
repair of royal pilaces and buildings,
Some discussion took place, but eventually the vote was
Nailed to.
On the vote of 60,5161. to defray the expense of main-
taining the royal parks,
Lord DUNCAN observed that the present vote was in
excess to the amount of 24,000 i. over the vote of last year.
Mr. 0. A. HAMILTON said that one GUM of the in-
crease of the vote this year was that the items for Itieb-
mond, Bushy, and Hampton Court-perks, wera not in the
estimates for 1951, but were included in the present esti-
mates. This accounted for 7,8571. Then there was
4,3301. for widening the roads in Hyde Park, supplying the
Serpentine with fresh water, and draining the Regent's
Park ; and there were other items which were transierted
from vote Nu. 1 to vote No. 2, which served to swell the
present vote. All there sums amounted to 24,3321., and
they ch:edy constituted the increase in the present vote.
After some conversation the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were severally agreed to :-121,2491.
for works and expenses of the new Houses of Parliament ;
8,3201. for Repository of Public Records; 10,0001. for the
department of the Comptroller of the Stationery Of ;
and 89,3961. fur Holyhead Harbour, roads, he.
On the vote of 170,000!. for the construction of harbours
of refuge,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS wished for information with regard
to the estimate and expenditure for the works at the
Channel Islands.
Mr. HAMILTON said that a very detailed statement cm
the subject had been laid on the table.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS would be glad to know the am:mat
of the original estimates. and the gross sum already spent.
Mr. STAFFORD said the original estimate for Alderney
amounted to 610,0001., for Jersey to 700,0001. ; there had
been spent on account of the former 195,0001., and of the
latter 192,0000. His quoted from the retain which had
been laid on the table.
The vote was agreed to, as was the vote of 1,3511. for Poet.
patriek Harbour,
On the vote of 33,88.51. to defray the expenses a Wein-
tainiag several public buildings in the department of the
Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland,
Mr. V. SMITH complained that it was 12,0001. more
than that of last year.
Mr. HAMILTON said that 130,0001. aide out of the
building of a custom-house at Belfast.
Ihr. W. WILLIAMS complained of charges for the Royal
I Aesieney and the Queen's Colleges.
Xr. HAMILTON said that if the hon. gentleman visited
the Royal Irish Academy he would not again make that
complaint; it was one of the most useful public, establish-
meats In the country. As tothe Queens Colleges, the
truth was, that in the act of parliament under which they
were established, no provision was made for their maiate-
nanee, and therefore it was that they were included in Ms
estimate.
After a short convolution the vote was agreed to.
11,0281. was voted for Kingstown Harbour,
95,8001. to pay the salaries and expenses of the hos
houses of parliament, allowances to retired WIWI of the
two houses, dc.,
54,4001. for the salaries of the officers of the Thiseary, 011
28,5501. for the salaries of the hme deputnnmik of
67,73.51. for the salaried of the department fee bodge
The next vote of 33,8151. for the colonial ffijoannenne was
then agreed to, as were the votes of 85,111‘ lie the sdartes
and expense of the Privy Council and the SAM 110Maaeted
with it ; of 2,6801. for the department sC the Lord Privy
Seel ; 8,3281. for the expenses of the cam of the Comp-
troller-General of the Exchequer;- and 23,150(. for the
salutes of the office of Paymaster-General.
Oa the vote of 2'2,8201. for the salaries and expenses of
the Commissioners of Works and Public Buildings, _
Lord DUNCAN complained of the increase which had
taken place in this department in consequence of its sepa-
ration from the Woods and Forests.
Mr. HAMILTON said that under the former arrange-
ment, when the twe offices were united, the expenditure of
salaries was 23,013!. At the present moment the salaries
in the Board of Works were 10,08.51., and in the altos of
Woods and Forests 12,5261., so that there had been no in-
crease. The In expenses unler the old system emanated
to 9,3001., so that the increase was not se very ;treat.
The vote was then agreed to, as were 20,8451. for the
salaries and expenses of the office of Woods and Forests,
and 2,7811. for the salaries of the State Paper-office.
On the vote of 3,273!. for the expenses of the ecclesiastical
commission,
Ml WILLIAMS objected, to which,
The committee divided—
For the vote 5B
Against it 45-13
The next vote was 221,3811. for the expenses of the admi-
nistration of the poor law.
38,4391. for the Mint, and 11,6881. public records, agreed
to without discussion.
15,1901. salaries inspectors of factories and mines.
Mr. HINDLEY asked whether any steps had recently
been taken, or were about to be taken, to prevent infrac-
tions of the law in factories, as regarded the duration of
working hours.
Mr. WALPOLE admitted that lie had heard of infrac-
tions of the law in some districts. A special inspector had
been sent down to investigate and report.
The next vote of 1,7001. for certain of lces in Scotland,
was agreed to.
On the next vote, 6,464!. for the household of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland.
Some discussion took place as to the encouragement of
rating in Ireland by the giving ot Queen's plates, and as
to the duties of the gentlemen et large"—eventually
The vote was agreed to.
22,3631. for the office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland
was agreed to.
As were also 6,0611. for the Paymaster of Civil Servi-es
Ireland, and 32,0131. 4s. 9d. for the Board of Public Works
Ireland.
0., the vote of 32,0001. for forei4n and other secret service
money,
Colonel SIBTHORP objected, as he said he always had
dour, to this, and complained that no account of this
money was given. The um was always the same.
' Mr. M'OREGOR said this sum was smeller than that
applied to secret service by any state of Europe, or even by
America. There was 110 part of it which could not be
fully accounted for; and it was, in fact, applied to the oh-
taining of useful informal-a which the government re-
quired, and which must he paid.
Sir G. I'ECIIELL thought it was a vote which was al-
• ways looked at with suspicion by the people of this
country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if the
details with regard to what was called secret service money
EATS to be given, it would be better to have no vote of such
s ram at All. Ile agreed with the hon. OlfMllff for Glas-
gow that there wee no state in Europe that did not re-
lend, not only double, but quadruple end quintuple
the sum now proposed in secret service money.
Tee vote was not for one, but all the departments of the

fleormaty of State, away
voucled tber r...r.tio, of State w ___ _-
He could tot agree that WM necemary item of ea-
pessiture *mild be looked at with suspicion.
After some further conversation the vote was agreed to ;
as wens the Mowing I
216,0021. for the Stationery-office and pvinting.
21,00 W. for the ofnee of the Solicitor to the Treasury.
17 70W. for sherirs fees, Am
cum for the Commissioners of the Insolvent Debtors'
Court.

121,1631. for criminal law expenses in Scotland.
57,7101. for criminal preeecutions in Ireland.
30,5001. for the Metropolitan (Dublin) Police.
240,0001. to defray charges formerly paid oat of county
rates.
16,1961. for the general superintendence of prisons.
On the vote for 261,522.1. for government prisons and con-
vict establishasenb at home,
Mr. ANSTEY obeerved that there was this year an in-
creased charge over last year, as there was last year over the
year preceding. Ile believed that many persons committed
crimes for the purpose of being transported, and that trans-
portation had loot much of its terrors since the discovery of
gold in Auitr dia. Owing to the reduction of the mili-
tary there, there was not now force enough to keep order,
and the governor was in hourly dread of an invasion of con-
victs from Van Diemen's Land. During the last year, the
emigration of free and honest labourers, owing to the absurd
regulations of the commissioners, had decreased to such an
eateot that the last batch of convicts was cheerfuLy re-
indeed in Van Diemen's Land, and they had all been taken
up. Under existing circumstances, transportation could
not be abolished ; but it ought to be done away with gra-
dually. Feeling that the subject was one of deep interest
to the colony, if there was any chance of successfully resist-
ing it, he would divide against the vote ; but he would now
confine his objection to the sum of 6,8071., in another vote,
for religious instruction in Van Diemen's Land.
Mr. SLANBY hoped the government would seriously
look at the immense increase of criminals in this country,
and the consequent increase of transportation. In 1805 the
number committed to prison or held to bail, had been
4,600; in 1815, 7,800; in 1821, 16,500 ; in 1831, 19,600 ; in
1841, 27,740; in 1848, 30,300; bring a rate of increase three
times greater than the increase of population. This was a
fearful sign. It was useless to increase prisons, unless
something were done to give information to the people.
The vote was then agreed to ; as were the following :
159,9531., expenses of prisoners in county gaols and of
prosecutions.
101,0411. for the transportation of convicts.
253,5871., for convict establishments in the colonies.
160,0001. for public education in Great Britain.
The neat vote was 62,3431. for the British Museum esta-
blishment.
Mr. ANSTEY complained that the vote was taken out of
its proper place. Its did not think it fair to the hon.
member for Dumfries, who had a motion on the paper on

in or
(Hear,
bated

r.
he ebo

the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
the custom to take the vote for the Museum before the
other votes in No. 4, and the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ewart),
who was an experienced member of the house, and who, in-
deed, was seldom absent from his seat, must have been
aware of that circumstance. All that the government
wanted was, that the business should be proceeded with.
Mr. ANSTEY said that if the vote was persisted in, he
would move that the chairman report progress.
The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took
place, the vote having been postponed.
On the vote of 164,6771. for public education in Ireland,
Mr. W. J. FOX asked the government for au explana-
tion of their intentions with respect to the system of na-
tional education in Ireland regarding which some doubt
existed.
Mr. WALPOLE maid he understood the hon. gentleman
to ask whether any material change was likely to take place
in the system of national education in Ireland. The urns
question had been put several times in both houses of par-
lament since the present government came into office.
The view which the government took of this question was
this:—The system of natlonal education in Ireland was in-
tended to be a combined system of education, and her Ma-
jesty's present government wished to promote that view
sad object. But in carrying out the system injustice was
done ; for certain members of the established church of
Ireland objected, from conscientious motives, to the mode
in which the grant wee applied, and they could notohtain aid
fur the schools with which they were immediately connected.
But, in addition to tkie objection that every minister of the
established church Who differed from the system as carried
out was excluded from obtaining soy portion of the grant,
there was this further objection, that he was excluded from
any chance of promotion. In this way, 1,700 out of 2,200
clergyman were deprived of all chance of preferment, al-
though some of them were in other respects adherents of
the late government. These were the two objections urged
against the present system, and her Majesty's government
thought that to the extent of encouraging the members of
the establish church, as well as other religious bodies, to
promote the education of the people of Ireland, a variation
ought to take place in the practice heretofore pursued.
(Hear, hear.) Such an alteration would be only consonant
to every principle of justice and equality. It should be
borne in mind that the system pursued in the schools of the
established church was not a separates ystem, but a com-
bined system, and that it did not exclude other sects who
differed from themselves. But the ministers of the esta-
blished church did not wish, and he (Mr. Walpole) did
not think they ought, to be excluded from a fair share of
the grant, and still less from the patronage of the govern-
ment, because from conscientious motive, they could not
sancti7n thepreeent system. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that when this question was
brought before parliament on a former occasion by the pre-
sent Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hamilton), he de-
fended the grant and the national system of education es
one which had been brought in by the noble earl the pre-
sent bead of the government. (Hear, hear.) The noble
earl, while his colleague, had himself defended and sup-
ported an extension of this system, which the right hon.
gentleman now declared to be an unjust system. (Hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE said he did not apply the word unjust
to the combined system of education, but to the exclusion
of certain members of the established church from any par-
ticipation in the grant, as well as to their exclusion from
preferment, because of their conscientious objection to the
system as carried on. (Hear, hear)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he certainly understood the right
hon. gentleman to apply the word unjust to the mixed sys-
tem of education. But he contended now, as he and as
Lord Derby contended with him formerly, that if they de-
parted from the mixed system of education they would do
much mischief ; and if in trying to rectify what was called
the injustice of the system of mixed education, they resorted
to the system of separate grants in proportion to the popu-
lation belonging to each religious denomination in Ireland,
he woe much mistaken if the established church of Ireland
would gain materially by that separation. (Hear, hear.)
They would not have beard of the intention to propose an
alteration in the present systi m were it not for the question
' of the hon. member for Oldham; aid till he heard that a
change was actually proposed to be made in a policy which
was to be traced to what he believed to be the fixed opinions
of Lord Derby—the author of the measure—he would not
press further argument on the attention of the committee.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the use of patronage, the
! objection of the right hon. gentleman, however applicable
1 to the late government, did not apply to the government of
Sir R. Peel, because the government recommended for pro-
• motion three bishops, these bishops being, as he thought
I unfortunately, opposed to the system of national education.
They were elevated to the episcopal bench by the advice of
R i Sir . Peel, and they afterwards used their influence—
, their epi,copal influence—to the utmost possible extent, in
opposition to the system of national education. (Hear,
l hear)
Viscount EBRINOTON said that when the use
of patronage was spoken of, it wee forgotten that
an enormous amount of preferment was pla.oed in
the hands of the bishops in Ireland, which they
sedulously employed in encouraging every resistance to the
system of combined education. (Hear, hear.) This pa
tronsge was not without its influences, if he could suppose
that the members of the established church in Ireland could
be influenced by such unworthy motives. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE would entreat the government not
to allow objections ea secondary nature to sway them on a
matter of so mesh impertense se the present. (Hear.) The
system of mixed einestien had been carried by means of •
mutual forbeareasemidasystem of compromise on both sides.
Much of the anise= if the system of mixed education was
to be attributed W the firmness, the piety, and the active
' charity of the bib Dr. Murray, who offered an example of
every christian virtu. (Hear, hear.) He cautioned the
government how they touched a brick of this edifice, lest
the whole might to down. (Hear.) He heard with
alarm the statement of the right hon. gentleman, but be
hoped he won d not tamper with a system on which mach
of the prosperity of Ireland depended. (Hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE said that he felt called on to
say a few words after what had fallen from the
right honourable gentleman who had preceded him.
Ile did not think one word has escaped him from which it
could be inferred that the combined system of educa-
tion was intended to be superseded. (Hear, hear.) On the
contrary, he said, in answer to the noble lord, the member
for London, who asked him a question on the subject some
weeks ago, that there was no intention to interfere with the
combined system of national education in Inland; but he
said then, what he still thought, that when public grants of
money were made for the purposes of education, it was but
reasonable that every portion of the community should
receive a share—(hear, hear)—and that the government was
vitiate to consider whether those who were by conscientious
mut ives, excluded from sharine in the rants at that moment,
could not be included in future. lie also went on to say
that he thought it unjust that members of the church of
England should he refused patronage merely because they
would not give in their nilhesion to the national system.
(Hear, hear.) That was all he said, or, if it were not all
be said, it was all he meant ; and he beloved not a word
had fallen from him from which it could be inferred that
the government intended to supersede the national system.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the right hon. gentlemen hod told
the house what was not intended by the government. Now,
as the matter was one of great importance as regarded the
I feelings of the people of Ireland, he wanted to know
wherein was the injustice of the present distribution of the

w

le lad understood the right has.
opinion there was, under dm
and that that injustice ought
the circumstances, he thought
aim how he intended to include
.'dished church in the purticipa-
e system we, maintained
in answer to the right honourable
he could not do better than
which he made in reply to
membcr for London. Ile said
'ration whether some portion of the
assigned to those 1111.01ildr. of the esta-
others in Irsland (fur there were oth dra)
alone motives, objected to the mode in
which it was then distributed. He never intimated that

the government had any plan by whies the object might
be elected, bat he said the matter deserved consideration.
(lieu, hear.) The word " injustice" he applied to another
point ; and he would tell the right hon. baronet that, in
his opinion, the remedy to be applied in that case was to
mite patronage fairly, whether the parties concurred
dissented from the national system of education.
hear.) Ile believed patronage had been so distil-
ever since the present government came into power.
. O. A. HAMILTON said perhaps it was right that
mild say a few words on this subject. lie had oer-
been prepared to propose the vote, under the idea
that it was understood to be the intention of the govern
meat to try and ascertain whether or not the system, which
was said to be a united one, was really united. Ile was un-
willing to enter into Ste discussion then, because he telt
that it was not desirable to discuss a general question of
that nature at such a moment ; but he was willing to pro-
pose the vote on the understanding which ho had just men-
tioned, and also on the understanding that the goes rament
was to consider whether some mode might not he devised
by which the conscientious objections of a considerable por-
tion of the members of the established church in Ireland
would be removed. The house would recollect that he had

never divided against the vote. On one occasion he stated
that he considered the national system one of the institu-
tions of the country, and that, having regard to the number
of schoola in existence, ha did not led justified in dividing
against the vote. His object had alway., been the obtaining
what he believed to be justice for a considerable portion of
the people of Ireland, by having such a modification of the
system introduced (and be believed it to be practi-
cable), as, without subverting the system, would remedy
the injustice complained of. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH said the house would recollect that his
hon. friend (Mr. Hamilton), and his right hon. colleague
(Mr. Napier) had always been the most consistent and de-
termined opponents of this national system. On that occa-
sion hie hon. friend said he was in favour of a modification

of the system. Now, that wee exactly the same expression
se was applied is every other subject, social, commercial, or
political, on which hon. gentlemen opposite had touched.
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He would mention a ye-
makable fact on • subject cognate to that under discussion.
He happened that day to be reading over those interestitig
productions the addresses of the Derbyite candidates
for the Irish constituencies; and it was a re-
markable fact, and one to which he especially
requested the attention of the hon. member for North War-
wickshire, that two-thirds of those gentlemen had dis-
tinctly pledged themselves, not only to support the national
system of education as it then existed, not only to support
the endowment of Islaynooth, but even to vote for the re-
peal of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill of last session.
(Laughter.) He admitted that that was only a modifica-
tion. (Laughter.) What he wanted to know, however,
was, what modification was required. (hear, hear.) Hon.
gentlemen opposite dealt with admirable tact in negatives.
(Hear, hear.) They could enumerate a long catalogue of
things which they were not for; but hon. members
on that side of the house wanted to know what they
were for. (hear, hear.) His hon. friend the member for
the University of Dublin (Mr. Hamilton) had hitherto
always been consistent. What, then, did he mean by a
modification ? (Ilesr, bear.) On the last occasion when
his hon. friend brought the question before the house the
most distinguished opponeat of his motion was the noble
member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley), who ably de-
fended the system originated by his sire. (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Keogh) was ono of those who had admired the prin-
ciple laid down by the right hon. gentleman who then led
that house, that political men should have a certain fixed
line of conduct, and should adhere to that line ; and he
must say, after listening to the observations of his hon.
friend (Mr. Hamilton), that the sooner hon. gentlemen
opposite declared what it was that they proposed to do in
reference to this question the better would it be for the
character of parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE said he had frequently heard the
hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Keogh) address the house
as to the importance of political men adhering to the prin-
ciples which they professed at the outset of their career;
but he thought the worst argument ever used in a political
assembly was the argumentum ad hominem, and he must
ask the hon. and learned gentleman whether he was
not himself once • member of the conservative party
to which he was now opposed. (Hear, hear.)
lie (Mr. Keogh) had now taken up the opposite Ride of the
question, and he advocated it with as much talent and sin-
cerity as he did when he supported other views on this and
other questions. The real question before the committee
was, whether the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) had
said anything which disentitled him or the government to
the confidence of the Irish people. The right hon. gentle-
man had only declared that the protestant population, the
epinonal aid presbyterian population, deserved the con-
sideration of the government, in reference to their views on
this question. (Hear, hear.) They represented a great
part of the wealth and the commerce, and he regretted now
to add, • very large portion of the population of
Ireland. The very fact stated by the right hon. baronet
demonstrated the fairness and prudence of what the right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) had said. The late Sir it.
Peel had promoted three eminent men to the episcopacy of
England in Ireland, and it was true that each of those three
was of opinion that this question ought to be reconsidered.
What they asked was that some mode might be discovered
by which the 1,700 clergymen of the church of England in
Ireland might have the opportunity of reading the scrip,
tuns in their schools as they were read in similar schools
in England. (Hear.) If the right hon. baronet (Sir J.
Graham) had read the opinion of the Bishop of Ossory be
would have ascertained that it was not asked to abandon
but to reconsider the system. In his opinion the statement
of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) did not disen-
title him to the confidence and respect of the Roman
catholic population of Ireland. It was not proposed to take
away one !sixpence of the grant which was applied for their
benefit. Before he eat down he might add that there were
in the church educational schools between 30,000 and 40,000
Zeman catholic children. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH—The hon. and learned gentleman had
stated that he (Mr. Keogh) had entered parliament a sup•
porter of the conservative party; that statement had been
frequently made before, and he was glad now to have an
opportunity of explaining it. It ought to have been
known to the honourable and learned gentleman, it
certainly was known to the hon. and learned Secretary for
the Treasury, and to many other members, that that state-
ment was totally and entirely unfounded. (Hear.) He
had entered parliament at a peculiar period of political
affairs, when to be a supporter of the late Sir Robert Peel
was to plan oneself in a position of great unpopularity in
Ireland—(hear); and he believed that he (Mr. Keogh) was
the only man in that country—he claimed no merit for it—
who is that year in which the present parliament was first
chosen, had distinctly and broadly asserted in his published
address that he was • supporter of the commercial and
political policy of the late right hon. baronet. (these
hear.) Sir Robert Peel having at that time been driven
from office by hon. gentlemen opposite, be (Mr. Keogh)
declared that he was perfectly prepared to continue his sup-
port to the policy advocated by him (Sir Robert Peel).
He (Mr. Keogh) had supported that commercial policy
ever since he entered the house, and had never given • vote
or contravention of it. The hon. and learned gentleman
(Mr. Whiteside) was, perhaps, unaware of the im-
portance of a person first proclaiming one set of
opinions, and then dropping them for others. He
would not retort upon the honourable and learned
gentleman, for he thought it would be unworthy to do so.
So far as the commercial policy of the late right hon. ba-
ronet was concerned, he (Mr. Keogh) was net a person to
go into private quarters and hold himself out as a sustainer
of that policy which he afterwards opposed, nor had he in
early life professed himself an advocate of reform of the re-
preseatatioa of the people, holding out the belief that he
preferred republican to monarchical institutions. He
had not gone clown—(interruption)—amongst a por-
tent of the people of Ireland, whose early republican pre-
dilections were matter of history, and had not given himself
out as a person who was prepared to carry out those prin.
ciples to their fullest extent. At the time to which the
hon. and learned gentleman had alluded he (Mr. Keogh)
had taken his principles on a moderate level. Re found
that the late Sir Robert Peel was prepared to do justice to
his countrymen, that he was an advocate of religious
liberty, and he (Mr. Keogh) then declared that the right
hon. baronet was deserving of the support of the people of
Ireland. He (Mr. Keogh) had sat in that house during
five years, and he referred to its records to establish the
assertion that he had not come into the house a protectionist
and had since become a freetrader. If the hon. sad
learned gentleman had reflected he could scarcely have
touched upon such topics, especially if he had observed the
hon. and learned gentleman (the Attorney-General) who
sat on his left. (Loud laughter.)
Mr WHITESIDE said that if the hon. and learned
gentleman had referred to him as having ate former period
preferred republican to monarchical principles, he must say
that was a fictioa. During the twenty years he hail been
at the bar, he had always been an energetic supporter of
conservative principles—(.* hear, hen ")—and the hon.
and learned gentleman, like many Irishmen, had drawn
upon his imagination for his facts. (Cheers and a laugh.)
Sir JOHN TYRELL deprecated the personal tone of
this debate. The hon. and learned member fur Athlone had ,
no right to taunt her Majesty's government with inconsist-
ency, when he himself was open to the some charge. The
hue. andelearned gentleman had begun his political career
in the ranks of the conservative arid drawn his opinions in
the moderate circle of the Carlton Club. (A laugh.) With
regard to the queivion before the committee, the hon. and
learned gentleman's superiors, the Synod of Thuile!, de-
sired • reconsideration of the system of uational education.
Mr. ANSTEY said that the question before the commit-
tee was nut the inconsistency of members on either side of
the house—it war., What does the government mean by
modification ? In protection, modification meant maintea-
once, or, as the Duke of Richmond had declared, restora-
tion of protection, pure and simple. What was the mean-
ing of modification of the asthmal school system of educa-
tion ? Did it mean repeal or maintenance ? It was said
that 1,700 -chools did not share in this grant, because they
were not permitted to teach according to what the clergy-
men considered to he the doctrines of that established chunb.
Well, when that alleged injustice was remedied, and these

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