The Express.
London, England, 1864-04-12 00:00:00

. APRIL 12, 1864.

mat lay a powerful ustelaid apposition out of doors, which
had gained by beg delay ia that house. Generally speaking
with such measures • hug delay wqe fetal, bet in thin ease
the result had hem the development of • powerful public
opthion is favour of the till. la a very simplex degree the
opines of the press had beset declared in favour of the
hill, irrespective for the mat part, so far as be row, of
pug interest ; nada, far as his owe eorreapoodense west,
he sever tootived in the whole comes of his ratio
life so many letters approving of • miser* as
he bad received with reaper to this measure.
At Mae coetinmemosent of the dismission politicos in great
umbers had bra presented against the bill ; but now peti-
tions in support of it wore beginning to come in, many of
them being from working moo who could have no interest is
upholding the scheme apart from a sines* belief that it
would be advantageous to their welfare. A great martin
was held in Exater•hall, at which the hoe. member (Mr.
Ayrtoo)proaided. It was held in opposition to the bill ;
but the ludependent working chums mustered so streglyi
that the hoe. gentleman could not himself decide which
IRIS the majority and which the minority ; though it win
said that if a gentlemen more friendly to the measure occu-
pied the chair, he might have had no difficulty in deter.
mining the point. (A laugh.) Hs Or right boo.
gentleman) had learned with great satisfaction '
that beards of guardians were also beginning to understand
and to support the bill, as or celculated to prove a great
boos to the working classes. (lire) He did not wish on
this 01016130 to return to any of the corroverted questions
to which the measure had given rise. He had not one word
of assertion or reproach to utter against any living society,
such as the Royal Liver or the British Predeetial. He did
not presume to attach, nor should ha be justified in attach-
ing to any of tacos societies a [medalist character. What
he Man; to say of them en • former occasion was this :
These gaieties had adopted • auntie language. They said,
" It is quite tree that there is a vest field for insurance
amongst the people of England. It is quite true likewise
that teat field is nemicupied, and that the friendly societies
touch only a very small portion of is ; but we ere ready to
do the work ; we intend to do it ; ad we claim of the
greromest that they should leave it to as." He (the
Chaucellor of the Exchequer) had therefore thought ft
necessary by a reference to one or two of the most stable
and respectable offices, to show that these societies were
lot in • position to set up so high a claim, or to give to the
working classes the same undeniable ,security which
was afforded to the wealthier classes when they
wished to insure their lives, and made a J
ctil selection of an office for that purpose.
He had used language which he was sorry to say he was not
prepared terstract with regard to that mesa of heartless
intrigue which had boss and perhaps was still at work in
certain quarters in emir:ice with life assurance; but he
did sot wish the house to undimmed that that language
I was applicable to any society of the clam he had mentioned.
There was another lustre*, the Professional, in which he
said he understood that the aharebolders had suffered severe
time. With regard to that., although he believed that the
Marmot' he had made were correct, no one would be
, better pleased if be could be assured that the coa-
-1 Maros which he had put upon the ere was
lerrorless, sad that although there might ham been
rashers and want of prudence, still that there had been
no corrupt intention. He was told by the boo. member for
York that that was so, and he was therefore glad to accept
the assurmes of hie hon. friend. He (the right boa. gee
-
item's) believed that it was a ease of most reckless,
hazardous, and therefore unjustifiable speculation, but it
was one compatible with a total &lemma of fraudulent it
tenths. (Hear, hear.) Reference had alao been made to
his observatiooi with regard to the conduct of the worthies
classes is their Modes micas. Upon the former occasion be
(Mr. Gladstone) had adverted to • meeting which had
been hi 4 wader the presidency of Mr. Potter, at
Raster- ; and he had stated that the name of Mr. Potter
was belie ed to be very much consented with those
ageo-
cies which were believed by the public at large to be em-
ployed for the coercive of a minority of the working classes
by a majority. He had been sines assured that that was
nos a true description of the trades unions at the prosiest
day—that there had in former times been a good deal of
what he complained of, but that the real proems of the
working daises, not only in intelligence and in moues of
subarea" but in the views they entertained of their social
duties, had effectually and essentially altered the character
of their trades uoims. (Hear, hear.) He believed, indeed,
that to this hour there were instances in which a portion of
the working-elsseett7l tyraunised over its own members;
but such instances, he rejoiced to think, were of • character
shim from the views and feelings of the trade societies
of London ; he was, therefore. extremely glad to
believe that them wee no foundation for the refer-
, ems which be had node to them. (Hear, hew.) His he-
' neerable friend (Mr. Ayrtoo) had mentioned two other
points. He said in the first place, that the whole difficulty
about life iosarame lay in the want of proper tables. The
hoe. member contended that the house bad but to make •
certain set of tables compulsory, and there would be an end
to the matter. le his (Yr. Gladstone's) opinion, however,
that was not so. The great distinction between pri-
vate and government gasurancia, in favour of the former,
lay la the higher ratio at which private societies could
make their investments. The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
on the other band, could only invest is the government
funds, which produced but 3/. or 3/, as. per cent. His hon.
friend wanted the house to sort tables foe the use of
frigidly societies, tabulated at the rate of V. lth. per ore
But that would indict a great hardship upon them societies,
and would place them in hopeless competition with the
government. (Hear, hear.) His hon. fried moreover
said he anticipated great danger from the successful work-
leg of this migmatite. In the first place the rim member
denied that the Post-office savings bur had smoseded.
He appeared, in fact, to think that the mosey which had
been placed in them had only beep filched from the old
beaks—a conclusion which he (Mr. Gladstone) was satisfied
could not be supported. The bon. member said that if ever
the time came when there was a vast sum in the bands of
the Post-office savings banks, and it happened that the rate
of interest was high, there would be • most dangerous and
"ugly rush," and the country would be called upon to re-
imburse the depositors, is order that they might reinvest their
' money on more admonitions terms. Now he (the Ohm.
oellor of the Exchequer) did not undertake to say that the
inters,' would ever be higher than it was, though he would
not deny the possibility that some day an additioo might he
made to the preterit rate, compatible always with the'
necessary condition that the public should not be called
upon to subsidise these oaks to the extent of • slog's far-
I thing, but that, on the contrary, it should reserve such a
margin as would give itself perfect security. A singer
ear had lately occurred to illustrate the public ap-
preciatioa of government security and a low interest.
The trustees of the Birmingham barings bank bad deter-
mined to close their establishment on account of the passing
of the sat of last year. At that moment the sate of drone%
in London was eight per cent. ; and there were of course
plenty of people in Birmingham ady to offer by advertise-
ment as much as 5 or si or eves 6 per cent to the depositors
for their money on call. The depositors were no fewer than
35,000; and threedonithe of them, both in num-
ber and amount, transferred their accounts to the
Post- office banks at 21. lOs. per cent. (Hear, bear.)
He (the Chancellor of the &Moque.) felt therefore
perfect faith In the political security of these
• but at any rate the objective of his hon. friend
could not apply to the present bill, for if persona chose to
place their coofideste in the government, so far as to in-
sure a sum of money payable only at their death, it would
be very difficult for them to earner the government,
inasmuch as they could not fulfil therm/wary preliminary'
exioilition for darter the mosey till they bad rased to
be retire of thin lower werkL (Hear, bear, and a laugh.)
Sir H. FARQITHAR wished to explain that if the right
honourable gentleman went into oonimittes on the bill, he
should propose that it be referred to a select committee, I
for the purpose of examining Sir A. Spearnme, Mr. Chet.
wyod, and Mr. Seudaniore ; two or three actuaries ; Mr. I
Told Pratt, and four or five gentlemen connected with
friendly societies and Marano. offices. (Hear, hoar.)

Sir F. KELLY referred to the terms in which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had spoken with regard to the
amalgamation of the Professional with the European oaks.
The right honourable gentlem►n had reptassatad the trans.
action as involving " wholesale robbery."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that he had applied that term to many transactions of the
kind referred to, aid not to this particular coast

Sir F. KELLY said it was unfortunate that such a
master of language as the right hoe. gentleman should have
used expressage which so man of common understandiag
would have supposed applied to any but to nee or other
or both of the societies named. The right hon. gentleman
spoke of the amalgamation as involving • lose of 60 per
coot to the policy holden. Now the fact was that at the
time of the amalgamation the Profeesimal had insured poli-
cies to the amount of • million and • half, and the liabilities
of the office were 150,0001., of which 100,0001. represented
ordioary liabilities, and the rest the difference
of the sum necessary to make up to the European
the difference biomass the policies transferred to
it and their value if they had been grauted
by the European itself ; so that in reality the lose, instead
of 60 per cent.. could not under any circumstances have
been more than three or four per rent lo reality there wee
no loss at all. The kande*, it should be stated, wee made
under • decree of the Master of the Rolls. The directors
had themselves &dreamed 61.1,0001, towards the deficiency
there bad been a call of 2a. 6d. • share ; and there did so.
now remain mare than 2,0001. or 3,000/. to be made good.
He thought the bill would effect • very great public benefit,
'nodally in protecting from grievous and terrible losses
those classes which were least able to beer them, but it
WWI open to some modifications.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
paused for a moment before rising to reply, in the hope
th►t some gentleman would say something about the society
to which the hon, and learned gentleman bad referred, and
he regretted that superior attractions had drawn gentlemen
away from the performance of that duty. (A laugh.)
When he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) spoke of the
wholesale loam inflicted upon the holders of policies in the
Professiocal Society, aid said it was something like wink/t-
-eals robbery, he explained the effect of rub and reckless
speculatiou without intending to imply any diatom's&
motive. It frequently happened that persons of great res.
pectability involved themselves in undertakings of this
kind, and thus without the slightest impurity of motive
committed an sot which had the effect of deluding sad
robbing others. (Hear, bear.) He was satisfied that there
was no impurity of motive on the part of the directors in
this use, and he hoped after the remarks of the hon. and
learned gentleman that nothing would ultimately be lost by
those who had kept their policies alive.
The original motion was then negatived, and the bill was
ordered to be referred to a select committee.

SUPPLY.-.-ARMY Zirrizaiaa

The house having goes iota comaittes of supply ou the
army estimates,
Upon the vote of 5,708,983/. for general staff and regi-
mental pay, allowances, and charm, a los, debate took
place, In the course of which Mr. Cfßan.ty instituted a
ODEOPIA•00 between the cost of the British and Freach
armies in all the details of the charges, widish showed than
in most of them those of the British army were nearly
double those of the French army, calculated per man of the
respective forces.
le the nouns of his general reply, Lord HARTINGTON
gave details relating to the effects of the Limited Enlist- '
Moat Act,

The vote was ultimately agreed to.
The following votes were likewise agreed to, after die
MlStiOn :
1,319,0471. for Commissariat establishment, services, and
movement of troop.
596,694/. for clothing establishments, services, and
supplies.
811,165/. for barrack establishments, services, nod
supplies.
45,4331. for Divine service.
.On the vote for 40,5491., charge for mania! law,
Lord HOTHAM toss pursuant to notice to make some
observations OR the course adopted in the cased Lieutenant-
Colocel Crawley and the laniskilling Dragoon, and its
effect on the discipline and good order of the army. He mid
althoughlbe could count a length of service in that house which
was only exceeded by that of the noble lordat the head of
the government and one other member, be never MOO with
mote reluctance than he did on the present occasion. The
manner, however, in which her Majesty. 'ornament had
brought forward the matter, namely, in the form of a vote
of money, was one that especially challenged comment.
He was happy to say that the three individuals chiefly con-
carded. namely, Sir Hugh Roes, Sir William Mansfield, and
Colonel Crawley were perfect steingers to him, and he
had, therefore, no personal feeling is the matter whatever.
He thought that both the house and the country had a right
to complain of the conduct of the military authorities, for it
• Ito to him that they had withheld information, which,
if they had produced it, would have prevented much of what
' bad taken place. He believed that the error of which
they had been guilty was owing entirely to too muds sepal-
Innen and that they bad dose wrong from a fear of pot
bong thought to have done right. The noble lord then pro-
ceeded to recapitulate at some length the history of the
BLISOW court-martial, and the steps which had been
taken with regard to it in the House of Commons.
He referred to the repeated demands of the right hoc.
member for Kilmarnock last year, for an important docu-
ment bearing upon this inquiry, and to the constant denials
• on the part of the government that the document in ques-
tion had any existence. That paper had, however, at
length been produced. It was in answer to a
letter from Sir Hugh Rose, is which was included
the addenda of the medical officer of the Ininskilling
pragooom to the effect that Utley was in the habit of drink.
tog a considerable quantity of brandy daily while under
arrest, and that that, in conjunction with other exciting
causes, was calculated to increase the predisposition to &po-
p/ink:seizure of which the sergeant-major died. the
government had come down in the first instance with
that informatics which most have been in their
Possession the house would have been willing that
in this case tbinp should take the ordinary course;
' any rate the court-martial would not, aod
ought not, to have taken place in England.
What could have induced auyl one to put forward such a
reply as was made on the ocosioa of the court-martial be
could not conceive. (Hear, hear.) Had it been delivered in
a court of jalltian, Dot only would it have hese s
bat the prosecutor would have been repreheoded.
The object of military not civil junkie was not vengeance,
but to deter others from oommittiog similar offences. If
a oommandlog officer was guilty of any misconduct let
him be punished ; but, on the other hand, if, after he had
been pot upon his trial he was acquitted, the fullest publi-
city ought to be given to the fact. In previous came there
had been a solemn adjudication from the fountain heeded
authority, and be thought that that was the coos. which
Might to have been pursued on thisonnion. The memo-
random of the Commander-in-Chief was addremed to
nobody ; and there was nothing to show that the regiment
was cognizant of the remit of Colonel Orewley's trial. Coe-
eidetic, that that gallant offiow had been acquitted, and that
he bad received a character of which any one might well
be proud from officers innumerable, it would have been
more generous If the Commander-in-Chief had announced
his public Intention to support the gallant colonel ; and if
be had reserved for his private admonition anything re-
specting which he thought it necessary to speak to him. It
was stated in the menioraidam that the regiment bad
always been in good order till it fell into the hands of
Colonel Crawley ; bat the documents bearing on the point
were not allowed to be produced. That was a significant
fact ; and, In truth, so far from the regiment having been in
a good state of diseeilliee, no regiment bad been more !re-
csently reprehendd from the moment it reached India.
Hear, hear.) e (the noble Ind) wished to
ow in what manner the army was hen eferth
to be governed ? He did not hesitate to say that if the
principles which had been lately acted upon continued to
have sway the army would fall in a very few years into a
date of discipline which would render it worse than use-
less. Ae officer who gave up everything to the service of
his sovereign had a right to expect that a liberal Interprets.
Moe should be put upon his actions, and that be should be
treated as inscoent till he was proved to be guilty. In
Wood Crawley 's ease, her Majesty's government had stood
by sad allowed him to be treated as if be had
been guilty of almost every offence a soldier
could commit, with the exception of rowdies.
But how could they expect officers to behave witht prompti.
tads in times of emergency if they were to be treated as
Colonel Crawley had been I Did the hones think that at
junctures where five minutes more or lees would make all
the difference in the world, officers could be expected to
act with vigour, if they had to consider what a
' hoe. member for *ghton would say of them in the House
of Commons. He did not hesitate to affirm that if
Sir Hugh Rose and Sir William Mansfield de.
served no better of their country than it might be
sunned from the blue book the government thought they
had—they onght to have been recalled at least • year ago.
He could not find that any suggestion of theirs bad had the
'sensitisation paid to it. Bet surely they might have been
trusted. For who were they ? Were they bloated aristocrats
who owed their position to family influence ? On the con-
trary they were men of whom the government had
been glad to avail itself during the great mutiny, and
of whom it might be glad to avail itself again.
He could not help saying that he entirely concurred in the
words be had read in a pamphlet, alluded to is that house
before, that inasmuch as the authorities had not thought
proper to remove those officers, and pot them on their trial,
they ought not to have allowed their subordinates to damage
the character of these officers in the eyes of the army and
the nation.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he could not follow
the noble lord through his able statement with raped
to the trial of Colonel Crawley. He must complaine
however that his Dobbs friend badtthougbt fit at this late
hour to reply to the argumeate need ou a former coca.
sion. The noble lord bad arid that the government, when
the subject was brought before the house, were in pores.
'don of information which ought to have enabled them to
coedits a great portion of the hon. member for Andover's
speech, butts (the Marquis of Hartingtoe) understood
the Iron. member for Andover to assert that Sergeant-Major
Lilley was ever confined in any. place like a black-hole.
He denied that the Commander-us-Chief ever intended to
impute to Sir Hugh Rome that be made public any memo-
madame marked **private," and said that the sum asked
fet in the edimates embraced every expense ooseeoled with
' the court-martial, Jackdaw India allowances for midtown's
who came to this country. With regard to the
againet Colonel Crawley, he amid ootbing was stated by tee
goverment which oould have led to the belief that he wee
to be tried on soy other than those involving the manes, in
which the imprisooment of Sergeant-Major Lilley was car-
ried out, and that it would have been utterly 11111)&1101 to have
tried him as the other charges which were preferred.
The Commander-in-Chief had bore* ample testimony to
the full and complete character of Colonel Crawley's ao
**Mal. and really he did not see how anything eoeld be
added to it.
Sir W. FRASER celled the attention of the Advocate-
General to the inconvenience of makiog the lieutenant.
colonel of a regiment the prosecutor when an officer under
his command had to be tried by court-martiaL That
practice placed a commending officer in a most us lenient
position, and some one else might easily be selected to per.
teem those duties.

Mr. HUNT said that the whole of the prooselimp
below tourt-martiale required revision. Is his opialou
a legal assessor, wholly unconnected with the
.regi•
moot, should be chosen to enlist is such inquiries.
He thought that the mods in which the exam:mat:um of
witnesses wee cooducted at courts martial was such that it
wee impossible to arrive at the truth, if a wit/sees was re-
solved to mislead. He thought, too, that if legal assietaate
Were allowed at all, it ought to be recqrsieed as it was in
other courts. The matter was one of such inapomance that
it might be fairly delegated to the consideration al • royal
commissios. (Hear, bear.) .

Lord LOVA:INE Thought that the resist trial had shown
the great incsuvenience of the present prooedure ; because
weeds had been placed in the mouth of an officer attributing
injustice to one of the highest military authorities in India,
and fully to soother. Besides, the speech far the proems-
Hon bad actually been printed in • morning paper before It
was delivered, sad it contained passages which were omitted
when the veer& was actually read before the court. (Hear.)
Colonel DICKSON thought that the worst thing that
could happen would be the iatrodoction of en extra legal
authority into courts-martisl. He trusted that the colonel
of the regiment would always be the proeecut r ; for how-
ever mach eourte-martial were blamed for their decisions,
Ilgenerally turned out that they bad been right after all.
(Rimy, bear.)
_ . . . .

Mr..fIE.AbLAY had already expressed hit opinion that
i• ordinary mass justice was well administered by courts-
asastkl, but that the legal machinery of the Judge-
Advocese-Chmeral's oaks was not sufficnint to catalog sock
•kW as bad Ludy taken place. It was impossible to pie.
elude the prisoner from the advantage of legal monstanee
but this *abject, which was on. of great difficulty, was
under the consideration of the authorities of the trial

The vote was then agreed to, and the CHAllltal repseted
popes&

COMMON LAW PROCEDURE (I ELAND) ACT (1853)
AMENDMENT
Mr. OTAGAN oroooeed the mooed radios of this hill,
the object of which wee to facilitate the mode of bolding
anion is the county of Oork. It wed proposed to empower

the sheriff tie wrommen the Jurors is tee sets, .o .8 to re-
lieve them from Paying the whole period of the I.llllZell,
which to that county were very loo(.
Agreed to.

TEe Wsreiousing of British Spirits Bill iru read s third
time sad passed.

THE THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. Burr hay. was gives to intro-
duce a bill to amend the laws relating to the oonsarraney of
the Ricer Thames, end for other purposes relating thereto.
THE CHURCH MULLING AND NEW PARISHES