The Express.
London, England, 1852-12-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 7, 1852.

I perty from which they drew their income*. But, what he
stated tumor WAI that he thought *h., e se of cl-rgynteu
whose incomes acre not more than 1001. a year was a hard
one, and that while dissenting clergymen, having 1001. •
year, were assessed at three•intirths uf their incomes under
the mitigating provisions of Schedule A, clergymeu of the
established church with the same ieeenn, should receive •
similar advantage, and that accordingly • specific clause
would be introduced into the act for that purpose. (Cheers.)
CONSOLIDATED ANN urrnis At! f (IRY.LAND).
The CHANCELLOsi of the EXCIIEQUEIt, in reply
to Mr. Movsnii, in reference to the second instalment of
advances now due under that act, stated that lie wished the
law to take its course, but promised to take another oppor.
minty of submitting propositions on the subject, which, ha
added, would be conceived in a spirit et equity and justice,
and, if finally accepted, would afford relief from any ugjait,
unfair, or unequal incidents
IiEIIILEItEM IIOSPITAL.

Is sower to Colpt4lo FITLROT,
Mr. Secretary WALPOLE intimated that the report of
the goveraors of thus hospital woatd be laid on t►e table ira
a few days.
THE FRENCH EMPIRE.

The CHANtI-11.LZIR"i7111;EXRI''''''" Mr.
Spanker, I think it is tine sad respectful to Mks house that
I iliould state to the Imam that her Majesty a gosernment
has received a notitl %demi that there has been a change in
tile form of government of France—that dm empire has
been re•establisheil, and that the "moirror has been pro-
claimed imider the title of Napoleon 111. (Hear, bear)
lloventment, acting on the policy which has ha. n no long
pursued by this countrt —that of recognising every de ifo
ui goveraent—lies at& s ;sea her Majesty promptly and cheer-
fully to re,mgiiise th^ new form it g errrement in France.
(hear.) At the same time, it his been—tint, in a friendly
and unofficial manner, but subsequently in a formal and offi-
cial mann. r —at.nounced to her M ejesty's government that in
accepting the title of 111., the Empererut Frsoce
does not in any way assert his hen direr,. claim to the em-
pire ; that, on the contrary, he considers his only claim to
be considered emperor is, that he has been elected by the
people of France. And he has declared, in a manner volun-
tary on his own part, that he entirely accepts all the govern-
ments, and all the acts of all the governments. that have
occurred anal taken place since the seer Init. (Hear, hear )
Lord J. ItUssELL-11 I understand Tightly, the right
hon. smith-man says that *ilespeteh from France has been
received. If so, and that document or despatch is in the
seas* which he has mentioned, will he have any objection
to lay it on the table of the Imam ?
The UIIANCELIAMt of the FACCIIIIQUER-1 should
think there would be no obj .etiun to I iy on the table a des-
patch of that kind; but I hope the noble lord will not
press me more closely on the subject at the present time.
)hear, hear.) 1 will merely add that I have lust no tinge
an Communicating with the house, for I did not wish the
House of Cumulous to hear it from may other quarter.

. -
SUPPLY.—THE BUDGET.
Mr. GLADSTONE w.lll &stems of Lakin.; the present
opportunity of ealliug attention to • matter of peat impor-
tance, as to the order, the regularity, and the form of their'
proceeding in argent to the tin allele' proposals of her Ma-
usty's government. lie understood the Chancellor of the.
Exchequer to say on Friday night last that tisi would on
Friday next preemie to the house an augmentation of the
house tax ; and ire inferred, thoun'i ho was not aware that
it had been @evenly mated, that each augmentation was to
take .ffect from the sth of April nest, but b :Mg the CUM
niencame nt of the financial scar. The right hon. gentle-
min oho stated that the subj, rt of the lucent, tax might,
as it appeared to him, properly stand over until after the
retees. lie (Mr. Gledstone) also thought the rieht hon.
ecaitletnan sou understood to say thou the question of the
tea duties was to It: cuttsiderfd un Friday, at the name
time with the house tan. But, whether he wee right in this
understanding or not, he he reeved he was cotrec in stating
that iu reference to any reduction, whether in tea duties or
any other matter, the right hon. gentlemen bold that no'
preliminary committee wee seminary, but that it was open
to !Um to introduce a hill on the subject without any preli•
:ninety proceeding. lie presumed, therefore, that there
would be no prelimine-y proceedings on Friday on the
tea duties, but that the bueinese of the house would be Can-
tine.' to the proposal for increasing the house duty. (Hear,
hear.) Cp. 11 this point he w is desirous of stating his
opinion that this was nut the regal ,e, the advantageous, or,
he as could venture to add, the constitutional geode of proceed-
(Cneere.) But in the present instance he must remind
the house, that apart from these general reasons, there were
also official considerations, that gave • tenfold force to the
principle which he was euuncietiiig. They were now ir.-
-sited to consider the question of the renewal of the income
tux; hut it was no orige r a were continuation as it was
iu the yeers le4i, in Dile. is Dail, and egein in 18:4: it
was • reconstruction of Ilia income tax twill which they
were to be called to deci e. (Cheers.) And was the re-
emu:ruction of the income tux • mere matter of financial
arrangement and detail t (II or, hear.) And it was the
duty of those who felt us hr diet on this questio• of the
reconstruction of the income tag, at the earlieet moment to
intimate to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that they entertained objections to that reconstruction (as
uJW proposed) of • chit outer wholly Mesperable. (Hear.)
And that if the emotion was to he opened at all, it was
one that must be discussed, and the judgment of the Louse
taken upon it, in the must effectual and solccon manner.
(Cheers.) Now, if there were those in the house who
differed fundamentally with each other as to the principle
on which the tax was to be contieued—one party holding
one opinion, and the other the very opposite—it wan obvious
that it would he absurd to argue tbat the coutinuanee of
the income tax, in any form, was placed beyond the
possibility of a doubt. (Hear, hear.) The right boa.
gentlemen, by his scheme, proposed to effect three great
changes in the tax—first, that it should include Ireland.
(blear, hear.) Tint change he would not now debate,
for he took it for granted that the proposition could not
stand as it now did, even if it were adopted. The second
proposed change was the removal of the exemption, down
to 601., on incomes derived from realised property, and to
1004. on profeseionalondoteer incomes of • temporary nature.
That was • questi m of great importance and delicacy ; at
the same tinte the right hon. gentleman had • precedent in
a former income tax in that course of proceeding, and it
was not on account of that proceeding that he (Mr. Glad-
stone) had received the atr.ng impression which he enter.
tained with regard to the proposals of the right hon. gen-
tleman, as a whole it was with reference to • proposition
which might be popular both in and out of the house.
With regard to the levying of the income tax, and by
which a per center) of 7d. in the pound was levied on In-
comes under Schedule A, while there was a reduction of
three-fourths in the amount levied under Schedules B, C,
and D, he was bound to tell the right hon. gentleman
that there were fundamental and radial differences of
opinion of so formidable • nature as probably to cause
• strenuous opposition to be offered to it from first
to last. He wished to intimate this objection, not so':
mush to any detail as to show to the hones the dangerous
position in which they would be placed with regard to the
position of the whole income-tax, pending the questions
with which they were to deal on Friday. 'l he proposal to
extend that tax to funded property in Ireland, as had been
said by his right hoe. friend the member for the University
of Cambridge, involved a breach of national faith. (Hear,
hear.) He hoped that the right honourable gentle-
man would consider these points between this and Fri.
day nest. Ile (Mr. Gladstone) did not intend to in-
terfere with the proposal of the government, as they enter-
tained different views en the subject; but feeling strongly
as he did the difficulties which the discussion of the ques-
tion of the income-tax would assume day by day, and that
in the most alarming form, he mould not refrain from the
statement be had made, and from suggestin to the right
hon. gentleman that which he thought would-be the wise
and 4: nate utional course for him to take in submitting his
financial measures to the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HL-ME begged to ask the right hon. gentleman,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether in the order of
proceedings with regard to our future Hamner, it would not
he better first to determine whether the incomes tax was to
be recta or temporary.
The CHANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER said that his
had collected from the right bun. gentleman the member
for the University of Oxford that there were two objections
to the course which the government proposed to pur-
sue—one was, • technical objection to the mode of
bringing the measures of the government before the
consideration of the house, and the second was an objection
to the principle of the policy of those measures. With re-
gard to the lust objection, all lie could say was, that he in-
tended to go into committee and to propose certain resole-
teem, and with all deference to the opinions of the denim-
piiished men who had been referred to by the right hon. •
genstlentaa, he was still of opinion that the course he had
reoimmended was the correct one. If it was otherwise, he •
should be corrected by the authority to which they all must
how; but as regarded the tea duties and the house tax it
was neceesery to go into committee, and as at present
advised, he did not think he was wrong in the course he
proposed to take. With regard to the second objection,
rind which related to the extension of the income tax to
pervious who were fundholders in Ireland, if he did nut mis-
take it was at prevent so eatended, and that if it did mot ex-
tend many funded property it wee by special exemption. As
far a. regarded schedule A, Ireland was eximpted from the
tax, hut as regarded schedule B, the operation being
universe), it must extend to Ireland. That wsa, therefore,
a Callsc,ottitobjeeti,n, which he should be prepaid to meet
on the peeper occasion. A third point which hail beta
I tee. a w.a. with reiterd to the course of the government in
recommending • reemostructien of the property rind income
tax to the house. lie could only nay that the government
bed well weighed the topics alluded to by the right hon.
gt mimeo, and they lotievett that the course they tad taken
involved ne breath of equity, and that the prineinles on
which they had attempted the reconstruction of the different
scheduh•ii oere those of justice, and that no income tax should
tsi brought for ward without below founded on those principle,.
The resolution be would bring forward would be inthe hands
of members on Wednesday, perhaps to-morrow, and ho
should take their opinion on the financial policy of the go.
verement in that form. Ile did not suppose that at this
time of the year the house coul4 come to say decision on
all the revolution', but as far as the government was con-
erected, the measures brought forward were to be consi-
dared as a whole, and as • whole they would stand or fall.
lie had collected from "'het had been said by the noble
I Inert, the member foe 'edam, that he wished that there
' should be • distinct lime presented to the house on Friday,
and he h ad placed such an issue in • definite form, he
would not say the most unfavoureble to the government,
but such an nee es would at least be agreeable
to gentlemen Apposite. (" end • laugh.) Ile hail
no objsct but to obtain a 'mint an the whole financial
scheme of the govt cement, and in asking that vt edict on
the tea duties and the house tax he thought he had taken
candid course, and ono which would he agreeable to the
house, and he did not at present see any objection to it or
an y reason to change that course. (Hear, hear )
iseed J. RUSSELL said that he did not suggest any
cum* to the right hon. gentleman—(hear, hear)—but ho

j only asked him to IllWaellS to the house the course he wished
to be taken. Mau): in the propusitions of the right boa.
gentleman were nem to hint, unit he eked him what course
lb@ wish...l the house to take, au Ihe (Lent J. Rosa:11)
understood him to say that he. wished the tea duty and
house tax to coin. on on Fridsy, and he (Lord 1.
Blamed') replied that he lied uo objection to it.
lie thought, however, that, notwithstanding the force of
what had been said by the right hen gentleman the mem-
ber for the Universite of 0 arra, in that fovea it WAS not
of so mach moment as what bad been will with regard to
taking both the hoe.* I ix and in...mai:tea into ronsideretien
before ally ovi.o.tieu of the reduction of taxation. There
might be difference of opinion, and the resolution of the
right hen. gen lemon putting the income tax in a new
form might give rise to widens by independent members
i which might go to alteratioue in the form and principle of
the income tax. He would not now enter into the question
of the breach of faith involved in the proposed alteration of
Schedule B, but he did think there could be on
II question, and he was ready to take part fa
any dismess.on of that question with a due Mom
of the danger of altering a peinsiple of teastion
established by successive paniausents, ant if you once ad-
mitted the principle of distribution of amounts in the
. income tax, other eircumsteuces might be made out quite as
( strong as those new brought forward by the uovernineut to
I induce the house to adopt other distinetiosio There was
another thing quite as important as the new form of the
iocome tax, and whisk was contrary to the principle laid
down ny the right hon. gentleman in his budget of last
year, aad again on Friday night, namely, that it you lease
direct taxation it ought nut to he grounded on exemptieus.
(Ileac, hear.) It SCSI evident that the right icon. gentle-
Mlll had founded aut one but several exemptions. It wag
a general and broad exemption that persons nut possessed
lof an nicenie of Woe a year were not liable, and that all
1 persons deriving incomes Irma reulised property under 50/.
1 a year should he exempt, tend that persons in trade
possessing leas than thud, a year should be also
exempt, and that one class, that of the tenant farmers,
should have the advantage of exemption when their in-
comes were 1501. lie keew that the right bun. gentlemen
had avoided the difficulty in his last statement by saying
that the estimate on the present rental of the proprietors
was not just, and that instead of half their incomes a third
should be taken as the estimate. It was clear that while
clerks with 1101. a year and 120/. • year, who had hitherto
been exempt, were brought under charge no Carmen would
1.0 brought under charge whose incomes were less than
ital. That might be a just exemption, but the right hon.
gentleman bad given n.l reason fur the change he bail
made. It ',mato to him (lord J. Russell) that (Imam
tax instead of eying free from exemptions was full of them.
(Hear, hear.) What he now wished to say was, that with-
out enteraig on the question as to whether the
right hoe. giot lemen slieuld choose to bring the
house tax or the income tux first before the house, he
feared, from what he heard on Friday night, that our linen
c;al system was iii great peril. (Hear.) As the income tax
expired in April, and the house tax as it now Mood could
not supply any deficiency a. ising from the mouton of that
tax, he thougat that both those subjects should be cmisi-
dered by a committee of the whole house before any pros
po.ition Was made to reduce either. (lie ir )
MS. USW LISUItS 111.11164lifleil, with :dr. (SLAIISTONII, elr.l
the proprotot inedineatioes of the incesi.e tax would be a
violation of the contract with the public cr. ditor.
The Jiecussion sots continued for some time, chiefly with
reference to the coarse of proceeding.
In allusion to some observations which fell from Mr.
HUMP,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQU!..II said that
be did intend to bring forward a motion fur administrative
refine', hut could not do so until the estimates were passed.
The inoti in fur going into committee of supply wu agreed
to, and the house went lute committee accordiugly.
Mr. STAFFORD said he trusted the hon. member for
Montrose would consider that what he said with regard to
administrative reform had been answered by his right hen
friend the Chanes hoe of the Exchequer, an l that he would
out expect bins to encounter that question. In asking the
committee to grant a sum of money, lie ought to state that
in bringing forward this supplementary estimate it was by
nn means with a wish to pass any imputation on the 8011111
of Admiralty or the ridit hunoursble gentlemen who
had pr. ceded then[ in office. The vote included a
sum for steam machinery for the ensuing year. Witco
they considered the enormous sums that had been
expended on steamers, it was impossible not to ted
great regret that science had not enabled them to el-
trails., more economy. Fast of all they hail Lath a paddle-
wheel fl., t, aril then it was toed necessary to change it
for a screw-flout ; and in IS/ 41 ...4 a great amount of ina•
ehinery had been sacrificed. 1 his, however, was precisely
what had happened in the eraat es. ablishinents iu which
the commerce illllirine WM constructed; and the ex 'meth-
ane, vast as it ores, had been unevuelable. °emus it was
only by each eirelly experiments that the superiority of the
screw had been established. It was absolutely necessary
to adopt the screw, unlearn they were prepared to see our
navy, tit- British navy, far behind that of other countries.
lie would now bey tole, before the house the contents of a
curious paper which had been drawn up in the official
department, showing the comparative cost of steam and
the sail. The original cost of a 93. gun sailing ship
was 101,300/. ; while that of a screw ship of the seine ar-
mament and fitted with engines of sth-horse power was
161,s iOOl. The annual expense of the sailing vessel was
41,3,01. ; bat that of the screw ship (allowing the coal at
1,6001., which, however, he thought would be found below
the average) wee 51,6081. Thus it would lac teen that the
first cost of a screw ship was forty per cent., and the annual
expenditure twenty per cent. over that o a sailing vessel
of tho sates magnitude. He now came to the question
of the number of men. They proposed to tyke a vote for
6,000 additional seamen and 1,500 additional marines for
four calendar menthe: hut, in order to diminish expense as
much as possible, 2,000 would only be taken for the first two
months. There was this distinction between a supplemen-
tary estimate and those annually soled. In the
latter case the number remained generally about the same
bit it would be idle to expect at once to raise the whole
traditional tomes. Thu rumours which were abroad as to tee
difficulty of enlisting seamen were, he was hoop, to say,
very greatly exaggerated; but they could not disguise
from themselves thu fact, that at the present moment the Bri-
t sb sailor was the mist precious article in the market.
Nut only had the Admiralty had competitors in the large
mercantile marine end the present stimulus nu the Uold
Coast, hut there was not a single nation that did not gladly
accept on board her ships the British sailor. (Hear, hear.)
It wan, therefore, the more important that they should do
everything to conduce to his comfort and to render the ser-
vice a temptation to him. (Cheers.) His right hon. friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had remarked on Friday
night upon the present system of discharging our sailors at
the time they had reached their greatest efficiency, and he
had alluded also to a committee of eminent oaken who had
had under consideration reforms of the greatest favor-

tancs ; but it was important to stets that these 6,300 men
now proposed to be raised would be placed under no re-
strictions whatever beyond those at present in force. There
was nothing more distasteful to a sailor than to be removed
from the ship in which he enlisted to soother; but this new
force would be allowed to select their own ships sod
would enjoy all the liberties allowed to the rest of the Der-
vice, while they would have all the benefits that might re-
cult from the committee. To work out any reruns
on board ship it was necessary to consult the
traditional feelings and even prejudices of the sai-
lor, for if it should be reported at Portsmouth
that there was to be the slightest change, be (Mr. Stafford)
did not think that they would be able to induce a hundred
men to join the service. (Hear, hear.) He now turnrd to
the question which would naturally be asked, namely,
where it was pvipoeed to station the ships ioteuiled fur the
defence of our shores ?Answering this, as far as he could do
so without harm to the public service, be might state that,
'adapting an occasional cruise, and beside, the reserve, they
prepesed to station at the Non three (notate, and five
aftesases ; at Plymouth, four sail of the line and five
kW atanitentej and at Porstmmith five sail of the line, two
Nal ale large steamers; for they mutt neither
lame espesed nature of the coast, nor Osborne, and
th=as and devoted loyalty of the nation that so often
film. (Cheers) We must thus have 10,000
al mw, besides marines, fir our home defences, and it
that rea the present time the number voted had =
by seven men. (Hear, hear.) In cos-
skein las b wily to reiterate that the must prayerful and
maaill bops of the government of the country
was Oar pease. (Hear, hear.)_ Our conduct sine' the
last shot was tired at Waterloo was • sufficient
guarantee that these were no idle words. We desired no
sere of additiooal territory and to interfere with the policy
o no foreign courts; but it was our desire that the poorest
'abject of the realm should feel that the Sag of England
was an seaurance of safety. (Hear, hear.) Although it
had been stated that our ships of war on foreign stations
wen derided, the Admiralty was besieged with applications
that one of her Majesty's vessels should be despatched to
the different ports for the purpose of insuring respect and
civility to the commerce of this country. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted tlait the Hones of Commons would not treat this as
a question of party politics, but simply as a vote of coo&
dance in the esecative which must siece,sarily be iu posse*.
sion of information of the desirability of communicating
which to the house they alone (mild be able to judge.
(Hear, bear.) Ito bilge tto move that 6,500 men, includ-
ing MOO bo granted to her Al ijesty till the 31st of
March, 1833.

Mr. 'HUME had always objected to tho practice of hav-
ing so many watts in the course of eoirdrutt;en, an I be
considered that the lin eeh of the bun. gentleman justified
his view. la 1833 the dockyard establishment had been
fired on a certain bane ; hut since then it had been doubled,
and they bad been bonding enormous ships which they did
not want, and doing that which was not useful. Their
dead weight was now actually as large as the entire coat of
the navy before the French war ; and yet at the death of
an admiral, although they hurl 140, they went on keeping
up that number.

Lord .1. ILUSSRLL believed that the question now be•
fore the house was a vote of 5,000 additional seamen, and
1,500 additional marines; and that it did not refer to oar
ousel expenditure, or to the age end number of oar ad.
rairals, all of which were subjects that might fsirly be con-
sidered when they had the general e.timatee before them.
The proposition which wu sow before them was one to
increase the number of our seamen, mid he most say that
that proposal had his warmest asseut—(cheers)—for he
b, leered it wac right and incemiry to provide sulllciently
for the &fence of this i.lanil, which was the citadel of this
vast empire. (Hear, hear) Ile wee glad that her Ma-
jesty's governroeut lia.l undertaken the duty, and hail no:
shrunk front a course which was ar► nceeasary. (Cheers.)
Ile ladieo't that they would be in no danger of ineurrini:
any unp 'polarity by this vote, hut that the nation would
accord them its warmest thanks for the energy which they
had shown. (lieu, hear.) Ile should give hia cordial sup-
port to the motion. (Cheers.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS confessed that the champs which

had taken plat.e in a neighbouring country were a suffi.
Meat justification for the vote. ile (.11 that the Ad-
I miralty was ouw administered more ably sad energetically,
than had been the come fur acme years ; and ho trusted that
. they would substitute courts martial Ull board ship, lor the
arbitrary power of punishment now entrusted to the cap-
! loin. lie hoped also that they would establish savings'
banks. (Hear, hear.)
Sir. G. PfiCHSLL remarked that the hon. gentlemen
had not shown that the 30,0001. extra granted last year was
not sufficient far the neeresery iucrease of oar f fees. With
re•peet to the difficulty of enlistment, ho thought that
whatever temperance cud peace society men might say, the'
alterations in their provisions and grog had more to do
with it almost thao anything. Tlw man likewise
objected greatly to being removed from one ship to
another. He thought, too, that the petty officers
ought to be lusured pensions. He hoped the hon. gene
*lemon would bear in =hid what he bad said shout :11.01611401111.
This was a peculiar time, and the seamen should be made
t, understand that their condition would be improved, and
not made worse. (liter, hear.) lie had always been op-
posed to the infliction of corporal puuishment, and hoped
that every precaution would be taken to prevent anything
of a tyrannical i haracter on board ship.
Mr. STAFFORD said that the vote of last session fir the
reserve, to which the hon. and gallant gentleman alluded,
had not been touched. It last nut been used at all, sud it
was nut the intention of the board to avail themselves ot it.
It had been suggests,' that these additionol men might be
tempt"' into the service by the promise of pensions to
those who became potty officers ; but the committee mull
ititicintser that they could not snake a distinction between
these men and others in the service; their claims must all
. stand et fall by the same rule. Precisely the same system
as had hitherto exi-ted would be in full operation
with regard to these 6,000 men As to Corp mat punish•
meat tbu non. sail gallant gentleman hid not in the
slisthteet degree exaggerated the feeling of the beard; they
considered teat officer best entitled to promotion, and to
deserve bust of his country, who contrived to keep up eIfI
cleat discipline with the least corporal punishment. (Beer,
bear.) As tar as he knew the navy, if the question were
put to the men themselves, they would say that corporal
punishment could not ho abolished.
lu answer toe question *rem Sir O. nffittat.ti,
Mr. 8 rAwFutio said, the additional meal would be per-
f.ctly free in their choice of • ship, and when they had
c.losen they would nut be removed.
Captain SCOBELL congratulste,l the house that they
wcre at last taking the proper means of defence.
Mr. MUNTZ did nut rise to object to the vote, believing
it to be necemary ; but he objected to the lattices of the
ordnance.

The CHAIRMAN—That is the neat vote.
Mr. CORBY thanked the government for having pro-
posed this smirk mental vole. Looking tat the vastly superior
military forge of France, he thought this step absolutely
necessary. Ile hoped this force, which was to be raised for
the defence of the cueet,would be kept in the Channel.
Mr. HUME complained of the large number of vesse:s
on foreign stations. W had 157 men of woe. Could we
not, out of that nuallicr, contrive to keep more than 13 in
the Channel ?

Sir F'. T. UAIiINU sail it was for the government to
state, on their responsibility, we it force they considered
necessary for the Sett ace et the country; and when they
did that he would never raise a word of uppmition. It was
astonishin.- ti hear the num:ier of inaccurate charges made
against foraier boards of admiralty; but he would not now
detain the house by answering them.
Mr. HUME dented that them was anhing like respon-
sibility in tile government, when one omeer could stand
forward and say that he alone caused the Affghan war.
(Hear, Hear.) They had now 39,000 seamen; let a good
account be given ut them before other 6.600 wore voted.
In Mr. l'itt's time he managed the defence of the country
with 16,000 Icemen. (Hear, hear.) We had gone on from
one Oct of extravagance to another ; and where was the
responsibility of the government ? All he wanted to know
was, where were the :59.000 seamen and marines that had
heal already voted ? lie deprecated the system of government
refusing to answer any questions, and sheltering themselves
behind the allegatioa that this was done on their respon-
sibility.
Sir 41 PECIIELI. said he thought Sir F. Baring was
one of the iw)at heti": Lords of the Admiralty they hail over

After o few words from Captain Bcobru., the vote wu
agreed to fleas. roa.
Toe nest vote was 100,000:. for steam machinery for naval
purposes.
Sir O. I'LCIIEI L. said there was a prevailing opinion
that the sum already voted under this head wes amply sat.
lic:ent if the Adurriilty only knew their own mind. Thu
money laid out on Cie St. Vincent, which was due ked at
l'ortsmouth last year, and afterwerds dismantled, had been
completely thrown away. Now they were asked for another
round sum, and where was it to come from 1 From an in-
creased house tax. He cheerfully contented to the vote fur
additional men, but he thought come excilanation was due
before this was agreed to. The Royal Frederick was now
ready for launching; he supposed there would be an order
fur converting it Mtn a steam vessel ; and this would be
attended with enormous expense, as was shown in the case
of the Ajax, the Blenheim, and other yeast' . The house
ought to know the espouse in each case, and the names of
the vessels that were altered. By altering the vessel merely
at the stern le put a screw in, nothing would he done fur
the efficiency of the ship. The Admiralty were altogether
at sea in regard to their alteration of hue of battle ships.
He was enxious to support the Admiralty in doing what
was necessary for the defence of the country, but he
wished the work to be properly done. He objected to the
neodless waste consequent on the firing salutes at Forts-
mouth.

Mr. SPAFFORD, in:regard to the men, bad stated that
the number of men it was proposed to raise in addition to
the existing number would be sufficient ton na the fleet and
leave a reserve at IL rwards.

Mr. J. WOREGOR complained that a large ianneces-
sary expenditure had been annually incurred fur
want of due attention and economy in the naval yards.
In consenting to the vote, he reserved to himself
the right to call attention to any vessel now being altered
from a sailing to a steam ship, should the failures he an-
ticipated occur.
Captain DUNCOIIBE knew of no objection to the pro.
duction of ouch accounts as had been euggested. This vote
was for the machinery for the ships which were finished
but waiting f“r machinery.
Mr. S. HERBERT spoke in support of the vote, and
paid • compliment to ministers fur the measures they
had taken, by the militia and otherwise, fir the defence of
the country, and the decision of the country, lately takeo,
was sufficient to oonvinoe every government that they wield
be supported is all necessary measures of that kind.
Mr. HUME believed the opinion of the country wee quite
of • contrary character.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, 73,9711. for wages for additional mea-
-1 men, marines, and clothing,
Mr. HUME asked whether there was any alteration in
the rate of wages?
Mr. STAFFORD—None. The rate of seamen's wages
would remain the same, viz. 2al. 6s. 6d. a year.
Mr. SCOBELL suggested that some Ire or six of the
most eminent shipbuil re and engineers should be allowed
to build angels on the largest and moat approved models.
The vote was agreed to, as was one of 37,9291. for via.
tusk, and another of 37,9291. for victuals for additional
seamen and marines.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Col. DUNNl,T;explainingsiiiiriFyitieaiditional means
of defence it was proposed to carry out in his &pant:mut,
reminded the committee that of thou means, none were
more important than the artillery forte. To that force it
was now proposed to make bat a very modest addition.
In the tint place it was intended to add 2,000 to the num-
ber of the men, and to make an addition of 1,000 horses—
not 30,000, as bad been stated by an hon. and gallant mom
ber opposite. They were all aware that a portion of the
artillery force was called the Hone Artillery. At
present it was usual to take the horses of
the men for the purpose of drawing the guns
and earriegits; and the consequence of this was,
that the men had not that constant drill which was necessary
to keep them in the most perfect efficiency. It was to re-
medy this defect that the additional 1,000 hones were re-
quired. The charge for this extra force would be 70,8251.
for the three months to the end of the present financial year,
including pay, bounties, clothing, and what was called levy
money. There would be another item of 5,1331. for forage
fur the borne, and another of 3,7001. for ammunition, and
there was a third of 8,0004. for new iron ordnance—that was
for guns et a Lager calibre than those now generally in
use—about one•fourth of which would be applied to the
navy. The total vote wu 92,6581.
On the vote of 70,82.51. for 'tieing 2,000 non-commis-
sioned officers and men for the royal regiment of artillery,
including pay, clothing, and levy money, and the purchase
of 1,000 horses,
Mr. MUNIZ remarked that it was of no nu having
more antilerymea and more hones unless a better practice-
ground was provided for them.
Mr. HUNS thought it told little for the attention paid
to the artillery that they had not sufficient practice ground.
Ile objected to the proposed increase, which would add
about 400,0001. to the estimates on the year, airing that the
vote was only for three menthe.
Alter some conversation,
The vote was agreed to; as were also the several
!AIMS of.

6,1331. or the putchue of 1,000 horses.
2,7001. (or addi,i•inal labour in making up amroubit'on.
On the vote of 14,0001. (or iron ordnance and projectile.,
Sir Cl. PEC HELL objected to the• tote, u there wtro
already 10 many guns in store.
Mr. HUME said if this vote was for new ordnance fir
experiments in new guns, he would not oppose it, but be
should like to know.

Sir F. 8/dint said that foreign powers, especially
France, had of late armed their ships with l 0 inch guns,
which exploded shells containing 4 lbs. of powder, while in
this country hitherto we had only used B.iuch guns, which
threw shells containing only 2 lbs. of powder. Captain
Chads had stated that a 10-inch gun with such shells
would at once destroy a ship, while Witich guns would not.
In this country we bud been introducing bB-pounders in the
land service, which had a range of 3,400 yards, habit,' of
the old 32-pounders which had only a range of 2,500 yards.
It was very desirable that we should have guns of the
largest be-e.
Mr. HUME said if the vote was intended for experiments
of that kind, he net only had no objection to it, but thought
it was only the duty of the Ordnance to attend to such
experiments. The explanatim was quits eatillactory to
him.

The Tate was tin o a,;rced to•
THR NATLONAL OALLERY. —INDUSTRIAL
EXHIBITION.
Ths CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, before
the mat Tots was taken, he wished to take the opportunity

of correcting an erroneous impression sobloh had been
adopted by his hon. friend the member for hlontraso with
regard to its object. It was a vote for mo,oacw., which, as
at first blush it appeared to be applicable to the building of
• national gallery, did not seem exorbitant, and he a ished
to explain toe eireutustauces under which it was prom*. d.
There could be nu doubt that the time had come when they
must study more the industrial education of the people—
(hear, hear)—and bring science and art to bear on produc•
tiou in • greater degree than had hitherto prevailed. (Hear,
hear.) A great revolutioa hnl taken place in the circum-
stances which hod given to this country her superiority in
nianufactures. This country had obtained that supremacy
in manufacture in consequence of her eye it command of
raw material ; but that raw material bad daily become more
attainable in other countries, and it was impossible touch
longer to maintain our supremacy in manufactures merely
by the command of raw material, mad the tune had
came when the intellectual element must be imported into
competition. (liner, hear.) This had been felt during the
Great Exhibition of last year, and the result had been that
the number of scientific men who, as jurors, had been occu-
pied in examining the products of other countries, as com-
pared with our own, had come to • conclusion which it
was not aecemary ostentatiously to announce, that if the
country wishea to maintain her supremacy in production,
the tntellectual .lerat nt most be added to that production.
It hod been found that other countries, owing to the cm- I
ployment of seientific agency, were able to enter into com-
petition with tine country, which owed its superiority only to
its commanded raw material, and that proved Vast the time
had come wheu this country must make s lions to maintain
its superiority. Throughout the whole of Europe this want
had l,een Lit, and there *Eta not • town in which science
had not bean brought to b.:ar ou production, or a capital in
Europe where there was not an industrial uaiversity.
(blear, hear.) There bad been no deficiency ail means to
that end in this country, and it was CUTIOUi that although
we bad not broag litat t and science to bear tat manufacture,
still if you counted up the different institutions in the metso-
pelts devoted to the arta and eciencer, unit the money la sad
for their support by voluntary contributions, it wouid bu
found that they [lumbered at least 100,and that the sum rased
for these objects by voluntary contributions was not lees than
160,0001. Besides this the state contributed nearly 100,0001.
to the support of I institutions, such as the British
Museum aad the National Gallery, making • quarter of
a million which was annually expended for the very pur•
poses which had n • been attained ; and the questomu
naturally arose why with such evidence of the desire of the
people to cultivate art and science by their wattle/mow to
spend such a sum, and when the state contributed to that
object in the seine spirit, yet that any systematic attempt to
bring art and science to hear on manufacturing industry
had been without effect. The result of tl.o Great
Exhibition, and observation of what was taking
placed in other countries, had induced not only
speculative mud imaginative but practical no it to decide
that the time had come when efforts eliouhl be toads to
give an industrial education to the people, rod that art and
science should be systernotically brought to loar on pruduc-
won. This subject lied attracted be attention of the nyal
commis-loners of the Great Exhibition, at whose head a,s
an illutarema Prince, to whom he (the Chancellor of the
Excheqietr) said that the country was indebted, for he was
one mu., qualiacti to form and elevate oltal reline the taste
of the rtyie, mid there was no one who eectit more inde-
fatigable hours and unceasing thought on the sub-
ject than he hail. (near, hear.) The royal coin-
ini,sioncrs had found themselves in poatesaion of
a liege suns after the clew of the Exhibition of 1861—that
moat interesting chapter in the history of wan. That Bar-
plus sum was 150,0001. ; and from contribution from
exhibitors and foreign states they were also in poasessioo
of the basis of an Industrial Exhibition, the value of which
was about 0,0041. The royal commissioners considered that
as they were in possessioo of funds, and being convinced of
de, deficiency of the country in a system of industrial art,
and also of the necessity for efforts to supply that deficiency
I —whether an opportunity bad nut arrived for giving
l a great impulse to the national feeling, end to
lay the foundation of such an industrial ednia-
, lion as lie had mentioned. They had to consider
what was the reason that, in a country where everything
concurred to develop such an industrial education, it had
hitherto been unsuccessful ; and they found it was to be
attributed to two caueos—firstly, the want of system ' • and,
secondly, the want of sauce ; and it might be safely surd
that toe latter cause was Oddly the obstacle. The
Royal Commissioners thought the time had come when
some great effort should be made to concentrate all these
scattered energies to the great object of the industrial educe-
lion of ilia nation. They considered it absolutely necessary
to overcome the difficulty that had always been felt—
' namely, the want of suttieient mace, and they bad pur-
chased, on it spot he thought eminently adapted to their
object, a coesiderible portion of lactl. They lied made too
purchased to the extent, he thought, of 70 acres, and
on a spot where it was nut iinpossihle con-
siderably to increase the amount of limit. They
bad expended the money which remained as the
surplus of the contributions to the Exhibition, and they
appealed to the government, whether they would recom-
mend to parliament that the state should c,ntribute an equal
sum to that which they themselves expended ter this object.
They wished that there should be what he might call a great
Commercial museum, in which might be Mond specimens of
.11 the raw produce of the world; that it should be fol-
lowed by • repository in which every machine that
man bad devised or might devise the machinery
which was to act on the raw produce, might be
collected, that the people might find in the study
of these machines • stimulus for their inventions. Finally,
when this machinery had acted upon the raw produce, they
wished to show the results in some museum in which every
possible manufacture might be witnessed. The National
Gallery and the galleries of art soil sculpture in
every form would afford a fourth division. The motion
was that a sum not exceeding 160,0001. be granted for the
purchase of land at Kensington Gore, for the erection of
the new National Gallery and inatitutione connected with
science and art, in aid of the funds already appropriated
thereto by the committee of the Exhibition of 1851.
Lord SEYMOUR. said they had been imsgiuisg in this
country that they were superior to all other countries in
manufactures; but, having had the advantage oi the Ex-
hibition, they had seen that unless they took great care,
they would he left behind. To the general scheme itself
ho had no objection, if it could be properly carried out ;
but ho foresaw that this was ealy the beginning of • large
expendit aro, and therefore it was right that the house should
be cautious.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as ofte of the royal commission,
he might perhaps be allowed a few words on this subject,
although the information he could give would be very little.
The commissioners were anxious that out of the large sum
left in their hands there should be laid the foundation of
an institution which might perpetuate the Great Exhibi-
tion of 1861; that there should be some attempt made to
perpetuate the advantages which were then derived. No•
thing appeared more likely to do so than by having an
institution where might be collected all that related to
science and to art. On the whole, he could not help be-
lieving that this was the eommeucement of • great im-
provement.
After some conversation
The Ca/ arras( wee proceeding to put the vote, when
Mr. HUME observed that the hon. gentleman who spoke
last had said that to whieh there ought to be some answer.
If anything like the Polytechnic School of France was to
be the result of this system, he thought there was great
Idanger of their proceeding to vote without further ex-
planation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was Inte-
-1 prised that the fact of an hon. gentleman's having made a
startling assertion, for which there was not the slightest loon-
t dation, should lead another hon. member to oppose a vote
which he had previously assented to. (Ministerial cheers.)
He could assure the hon. gentlemen that he had heard that
scheme for the first time, and he could say with the most
perfect confidence that the assertion made was one for
which there was not the slighest imaginable ground.
The vote was then agreed to.