The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-13 00:00:00

(Stamped ld. Additional.) [TWOPENCE.

believe that ha taking this warm I shall NO ean7 oat that
citinat.

Mr. 1117TT asked whether a copy of Count BOP/ Skew
lar would be laid upon the table ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the government wee not
la pomession of tbki document
The papers ware thee ordered to lie upon the table.
• EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. J. FEROUSSON moved that the bill be read a third
time that day three months. He opposed the bill beec.se
ha believed that it would materially interfere with the sham
of Scotland, and too interfering would diminish the mama
of *duration in Scotland. He also ooject.d to the details of
the bill, whiel he considered would interfere with sad spat
existing arrangemeste, without subststuting anything better
ht their stead. (Divide.)
Mr. L. HEYWOOD objected to this bill u interfering
with the voluntary system, which had heretofore worked so
well in Scotland.
The house then divided—
Ayes
Nees
The announcement of the result was loudly cheered by
the opposition.
Ultimately a division ,was taken on the question that
the bill should pass, which was serried by a imejority of
130 to 116.-15.

anaeusesseat of the swum wee those-
bend thous.
TENANTS' IMPROVEMENTS COMPENSATION
(IRELAND) BILL.
The house went taw committee on this bill.
Mr. HORBMAN said he would postpone the committee,
awl moist that the chairman report progress.
Mr. MALINS said that before the chairmen loft the
chair be wished to oak a question. A rumour was afloat
that, during the present emergeacy of political affairs, the
noble lord at the head of the government had been wailed
on by a considerable somber of Irish members, who re-
quested that the 14th clause, which bad been rejected by a
majority of 36, should be restored. The rumor was that
the noble lord, under pressare-7(cheers)—had made
an arrangement that some quasi-independent member
should be put up to more the restoration of the dams
aid that the noble bard would give the motion hie support:
Ba of some amid me believe the truth of this rumour,
but still it was very gtheraily believed. (Hear, hear.) He
begged to ask whether any kind of arrangement had been
entered into, whether there VOA any foundation for the
report, or whether it was altogether a malignant report P
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, all that has passed is as simple
and easily explained a transaction as possible. Acertain num-
ber of Irish members expressed a wish to me me yesterday.
(Ironical cheers.) They stated to me they were desirous that
a motion should be made to reinsert the clause—(cheers and
coantes cheers)—and they wished te know whether if snob
• Motion was made I would support it. My, answer was
that as I had supported the clause when it stood in the
bill, if any member ina4e such • motion I should consider
myself bound I. ausiatency—(ironical sheers and laughter)
—to support it. No other topic was alluded to, there was
pressure, no bargain. (Hear, hear.) I stated what I Ka-
eider to be in perfect unison with the souse I have pursued
with regard to the bill, sad my intention is to support the
motion ; and it will be made not,' by a quasi, but by • per-
fectly independent member.
Mr. 8. FITZGERALD wished to ask a farther question ;
he viand to know whether at the interview the attention of
the noble lord had not been drawn to the fact that seven
member, of the government were not present at the last
division, and that he had promised it should, on the nest
occasion, be supported with the whole strength at the ge.
vernment.
Col. DUNNE wished to know whether the noble lord wee
to support VA" clause as originally proposed by the hos. and
learned minuet, or as amended by the right hon. OM&
tary to Ireland.
Lord PALMERSTON intended, of course, to support
what he had supported before, that was the clause se
amended by his right hon. friend. No doubt, those Beads-
men who came to him remarked that certain musben wage
abuse from the division. (Laughter.) He said that he bad
unfortunately to remark the abuses of mane neselbereel
the government on other divisions. He bagged to take that
opportunity of exprsming a hope that he would not have to
make the same remark on future occasions. (Laughter.)
Suisse% MBE was not one of the members—(buar,
hear)—who maned on the noble lord, he had only heard of
the interview accidentally since he cacao into the house. He
wished to know from the noble lord who those members
were, and whether he intended to support the clause as it
stood originally or as amended. He wished to know
whether these gentlemen asked the noble lord to support
the clause as it stood originally. He would feel much
obliged to the noble lord if he would tall who the members
were who waited on him. (Chem.) It was very important
that the house and the people of Ireland should know who
had consented to put back this mutilated clam.
Lord PALMERSTON said that Gibe boo. and learned
gentleman wished to know who those members were, he had
better ask among his friends. With regard to himself, he
apprehended soma would ask him to support what be
had before opposed. (Laughter and cheers.) He had
supported the amendments of his right hon. friend. No
man could ask him to support the reinsertion of that which
he had before satiated to altar. (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI expressed hie opinion that it was a
practice mush to he deprecated that the business ofthe house
should be transacted out of the house. He had noticed this
once or twice during the course of the present session. He
thought it was • practice much to he regretted, and much
to be deprecated by ail parties in that house, whether quasi-
independent or ruby independent members—as the noble
lad had dramas distinction—that these private communise-
thas with the minister, which were to affect the progress of
iMasuree and the decisions of the house, should be carried on I
in this sinister and subternations manner. (Cheers.) The
Irish representatives appeared to have ea nehappy in
this respect; when anything of the kind occurred it was
generally found to be on an Iri.h question; there was gene-
rally a deputation of Irish members,who when the matter was
brought beton the house were repudiated even by their own
party. He really thought it was not • nurse the noble lord
ought to have take.. The noble lord ought to have told
such a deputalloo, even • menacing deputation (as he con-
fessed it to be) that in the House of Commons he would
give his opiates, end that there they should Near the senti-
ments of the government. (Cheers.) He admitted that the
business of a minister was • very dithoult one, and that the
present peeitioa of the noble lord was ens which should
induce them to look on his conduct with indulgence.
(Chun.) He hoped the noble lord would take that oppor-
tunity of defining the difference between an independent
and quasi independent member—(cheers)—if that were
done it might facilitate the course of public business, and
tend to prevent these unseemly occurrences.
Lord PALMERSTON begged to say that the term quasi
independent member was not his. (Cheers.) The right
boo, gentleman had put words into his moath. He had not
called the deputation • menacing one. On the contrery,he
had said nothing could be less menacing. (Cheers.) He
should say that the doctrine of the right hon. gentleman
appeared to him to be quite inconsistent with the proper
working of the functions of the house. (Hear, hear.) It
was an utterly novel doctrine to say that • menthes or say
number of ambers of that house should not come te a
minister and express an opinion on a measure in progress_ ,
and their wishes ea to the mode in which it should be
dealt witb. (Hear, hear.) 8t far from being an impedi-
ment, such • come would mush facilitate businees—(bear,
hear)—and was essential to the proper working of the fano-
dons of the house. Many such deputations have come to
the right host gentleman during his calorie of *floe.
(Hear, bur.) With regard to transacting the business of
that house 'bombers, he should like to be permitted to ask
a question of the right hon. gentleman—(cheers)—as to
when and with whom the business of that house had been
seeuged—b7 what interview, what communication ?
They-lead all read in a French ook of the Palace of Truth
—he should he very glad to find himself there—or rather is
the Palace of Utreserved Disclosure—with the right hon.
gentleman, and have the opportunity of putting a few clues.
tions to him. (Cheers.)
Mr. WHIT SIDE thought the question before the house
was a very important one. The noble lord weld not Sapid
he would be able to impose on any man by the theme be
hadust delivered. A very important mum* sennosted
withlreland was before the house. He had the bewsur of
sidles on the select committee with the noble lewd, sad on
every division the noble lord voted agates* the peogesilies
of the hon. and learned serjeant. The wide WI, bewtheek
tad since become Prim Minister. The question had been
discussed by the House of Commons; sad, after slum 14
was rejected, the noble lord had boa sees reason to
bit opinion—be should like to know by fora of what
argument. ; he should like to knew the consideration for
the promise gives by the noble lord. Of nut se every pro-
mise had • nosideration. (Hear) On the eve of a debate
which might affect the exis nee of the noble lord as a
minister, • body of Irish members lentos him, and express
a wish that a clause which had been rejected by the Hone
of Commons should be reinstated, and ask him then if It
was proposed to rescind that vote, and restore the clam,
whether he would support it ; the noble lord, influenced of
course by the fosse of truth—(eheers)—promisee to vote for
the clause, and support it with the whole streagth of the
Mr. ROEBUCK—The lease will doubtless suppose that government. No man with two ideas in his head could
have aay doubt as to what the consideration. for that agree-
seas "ewer' As I Wile" the "Mk. 14
Meat was; they showed the effect of it in the votes of
I should make
be proposed by the hen. member for Illetieraebire is on. Thursday. (Cheers) The noble lord had tried to laugh
of the most important whittle could be submitted With. off the matter pill and pleas:atty. The noble lord was •
house, and as I think that two important questions member of the 'overman: when, on the occasion of the
might mot to be 1,00,e, the hoses stuultaionali, if proposed extension of the, income tax to Ireland, • sort of
44,1•04's estelsthes Winch was coolly and system
to sib" I belie" hl/ be the whit of this bele% broken under Mainly the same cirmonstanoes as the
I shall accede qualified promise was giv, n to the Irish member by •
the debate be adjourned on Monday
' and shall pcetpons the motion of whisk I have present.
gives notice. (User, 1010 I think this will meet the Sir G. GREY said. that the right hoe. sandman the
wish of the house. I have (sly eie °West la Mire and I member lc:: Beeitiellhatatillse had stated these %timeliest

with his view of the quinine at line, he thought it eras
which could be very little effected by the papers to be plead
as the table. The hoses had something more than diplo.
natio documents aa this eession. They had the @psalm
of Cabinet ministers, the priaelpel actors in the seen.. If,
however, the noble lord had rhea sad said it would be mace
fair that the hone should be in ?weenie. of then does-
mine before coming to say imeeimise, sad that he should
therefore prefer the notice of the ben. member for Hens to
be taken on Monday, he (Mr. Disraeli) should not have
risen. It would hen been perfectly regular for the noble
lord to have said that he should propose to go into con•
mitt" of supply on Monday. (Hear, hear.) (Lord
Palmerston intimated that be should do so ] The noble
lard had not expressed such in teemed= in his statement,
ha merely said that his bon. friend (Sir K B. Lynes) would
oe able to fled a day in the muse of the week. (Rear,
hear.) If the noble lord would say that on Monday he
should go into committee of supply, so that his hon. friend
would have t►e opportunity of a full sad fair diseases of
the funniest subject which he was to bring forward, he
(Mr. Disraeli) would net press the notice of width he had
given notice ; of course, in any ether event he should salt
the opinion of the house upon that motion.
Lord PAULIN' TON really thought the right hoe
gentleman bad made " mask ado about nothing" upon
the present occasion. With raped to what passed on a
former ocession he was net aware that say keeetirable
friend of his had lied the committee of supply
for Friday, except in that formal maser in width
supply was adjourned from one day to another. But if he
had known the condition, is which the house was to be
placed will/regard to the make of the hew. member for

Hertfordshire, seeing that the papers which he was about
to plata apes the table could not be in the hands of mem-
bers until tomorrow, even *appeals' that he had flied the
committee of supply for to-morrow, be should have post.
paned that amenities simply for the purpose of enabling
theltouse to be in a paltioa to form ea opinion upon the
hon. member's motion. He had already aid that after to •
morrow he should throw no impediment in the way of say
arnusgement which the hose. member might make. The right
hos. gentleman objects to the foam se not including *spars.
If he named the whole week, Meaday mast have bets In-
cluded as part of it. (Hear.) It was not for the goverment
to mediate between the has. member for Hertfordshire
(Sir E. B. Lytton) and the lea. member for Sheffield (Mr.
Roebuck) ; it would have hoes wren for him to have Iced
the tootles of the former hon. amber for Monday, when
that of the latter hon. gentleman stood for the following
day. But he was quite prepared to say, that if it would be

eouveuient for the has. be-roast to teaks his notion on
Monday the government would Ix that day far going Into
°cumin* of supply. The govsessasut bad no duke to
shrink from diseardon, they only dashed that Lon. members
should have the fullest intimation. He °mild quite

andastead—the right has. palms, (Mr. Disraeli)
haviag found that mated motions of ammo had
failed in °magnates of the house nadentanding
the subject which they had to discses—how it
would suit the right hon. gentleman to urge the house into a
dissuades without giving the house the opportunity of being
fally instructed as to fats. It was quite a legitimate
tattle—it proved, however, that the right has. gentleman
had hot litW toofidenee fa his own ewe. (Hear, hear.)
There was but one word more which he wished to say,
and that was with tepid to what the right hoe. gentle-
man said in respect to the steamiest of his noble fraud
(Lord J. Hassell) on Friday last. The right fan. gentle-
man appeared to think that in stating the decision at
which the cabinet had arrived his noble friend had over-
stepped his duty as a privy einaceler. Why sanely a I
day passed without some hon. msmbsr or another getting
up sad asking the government what they intended to do
with regard to certain matters, sad it was aeosesery for
her Majesty's ministers to state, is reply, to what declaim
the ablest had soon. Seth a comas was Inevitable from
the manner in which the public affairs of this country were
coadated, and wars any other wane adopted, it would
M perfectly Opposable to any on the governmeat. (Hear.)
Sir B. B. LYTTON said the noble lord had charged his
right hoc. friend with having made " much ado about
nothing." He was not surprised at that ; for he recol-
lected that " Much Ado about Nothing" followed chrono-
logically after the " Comedy if Errors." (Laughter.)
If the production of these papas amid, in the opinion of
the goverarneat, ia any way lighten the charge which he
made spina ministers, he was extremely glad that they
should be produced. It was not his wish—it maid not be
the wish of any hon. member—that any step should be
taken without every opportunity being afforded for sap's-
oaten and discussion. He accepted dos day which the
noble lord proposed. Perhaps he would allow him to state
that it bad been suggested that it would be more soave-
sleet if his motion was brought in substantively in-
stead of betug made spa going into committee of
supply. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. WALSH called the attention of the house to the
diesrepasey between the statement which the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) bad made that 'casing sad that which he
had node upon a former eassioa. According to hie
former statement it would appear that the noble lard bad
gives fa hie fall adhesion to the proposals of Austria, bat
he now softened down that admission to a mere complimen-
tary eourtesy to Austria. He (Sir J. Walsh) thought
this difference ought sot to pees unnoticed. There
was another matter to whisk be wished to call
Meatiest. It now appeared that the notice of
the boo. member for Hefts would come on upon
Moodily, and considering the importance of the subject, it
was not unreasonable to suppose that than would bean ad-
journed debate. But for Tuesday the motion of the boa.
member for Sheffield was gad. It would be very foam-
anima to have the debates upon these two motions pro-
ceeding simultaneously, and he would therefore suggest to
the hon. member for Shdield (Mr. Roebuck) that he
should make some arrangement, in order to obviate this

--,
always took plasm with referent* to Irish mitten. He should
think it deeply to be regretted that when Irish members
took a amen which was constantly taken by English and
Scotch mesnabere—(hear, bear)—by going to a member of
the who had charge of a bill t, express their
simmakieh member should always be toned to get
up amil his countrymen with base and dishonestmodem. )If the boa. and learned gentleman
mid net that hie countrymen who went on the
depalelien sedineed to could not do so without snaking
dl.
• iseempt selpdatioo, he might settle it with some of those
hi.. Ilmitimmea, bat he should say that those gendenten
hada Mahe to be considered at least as honourable, as hide-
pendent, and as free from the stain of any base or dishonest
motive, as the km. and learned member himself. (Cheers.)
The boa. sad learned gentleman appeared to think it very
strange, atilt a bill had passed through committee, and
110•611 idenees were rejected, that an attempt should be made
to add these on bringing up the report, which was the
mama nest stage. Nothing was more common. They had
mud examples of it, even that very evening. lie could ,
arnmeive nothing more natural than that • Dumber of Irish
members who take an interest in • bill should
wait on a minister and ask him to mast in
making a peevident which he had before supported. :
He maid eemssim nothing ditereditable is that mama of
assednet, andminidnig very unusual in it. But the hem. end
imened sentielmiaMdamated that, became the home
inekseity of
than
ndeuted Mik dame, and Mono •
ebed mend is tka Mibneity, Ode deptatirtiOn '
him to silk him to change his opinion. The very reverse
was themes. The ktoonsietency would have been in voting
for a Manse en the report which he hid voted against in the
committee. The Boliciter-General for Ireland under Lord
Derby's government introduced a bill, which was supported
by the then Attorney-Gleneral for Ireland (Mr. Napier),
on the same subject, Including a clause of • simi-
lar character; and there was a bill introduced by
the hot*. sad learned serjeant. Acd what was the
mune then pursued ? The right hon. gentleman con-
sented to both those bills being read a seeond time. (Hear,
hear.) lie did not charge the right hon. gentleman with
base and discreditable motives, but hon. gentlemen opposite
who were opposed to the bill of the hon. and learned gen-
tleman west in a body to Lord Derby—(hear, hear)—and
they remonstrated with him against the conduct of his
Attorney and Bolicitor-General. Whether any condition
was stipulated for he did not know, but he knew ibis, that
Lord Derby in another place said the hills had been merely
read pro formic. Now there was no such thing as reading a
bill proforma, so that Lord Derby's government in consent-
ing to tie secoad reading consented to what amounted to
nothing, and it was an illusory proceeding altogether,
which left the government perfectly tree to object to any
parts of the bill.

Mr. BRADY said he thought he could throw some
light on the subject of the deputation. He had not been •
eonstant supporter of the noble lord, and indeed he had
been in.eonstant opposition to him, and consequently he
could not be one of a deputation to wait on ham but hit
believed he was somewhat instrumental in the deputation
'raid% on him. An influential member of that house, and
a most influential member for Ireland in oppositios to the
government—(oarati)—he was not at liberty to give the
name till he had commankatsd with him ; but he was now
in the home, and if he permitted him to make nee of his
name he should have mash Omens in doing so—the hen.
member came to him and stated that there were a large
number on that (the opposition) side of the house, who
would be willing to reconsider the retrospective clams if
government brought it forward again. He believed it
was from that that the deputation arose, and he
was surprised to hear indignation expressed by hon.
members that a deputation should wait upon the govern-
ment. He did not approve of the bill as amended by the
government. Oa the contrary, be thought it a nullity,but he
thought that the deputation which waited on the noble lord
was not at all culpable.
Mr. NAPIER gave a flat contradiction to the statement
that in sousentiag to the emend reading of the bill of the
hon. and learned member for Kilkenny, Lord Derby's go-
vernment were parties to an illusory proceeding. His hon.
and learned friend (Mr. White.ide) on that mansion stated
that he was no consenting party to such an arrangement.
What took piece was this, that his right hoe. friend the
member for Midhunt cemented that the learned serjeant'e
bill should be read • second time, in order
that it might go into committee with tke other bill.
He (Mr. Napier) had no communication with the
learned serjeent on the subject. Lord Derby, with that inde-
pendence of character which had always distinguished him,
and so far from giving any encouragement to the measure,
though the fate of his ministry might depend upon it, said
mem what might nothing should induce him to support the
bill.
Sir G. GREY—A deputation from the opponents of the
bill waited upon kim. (Cheers.)
Mr. NAPIER--But not to make a bargain. (Counter
theme.) On Lord Derby's part, and on his own, be gave the
most peremptory contradiction to the statement that there
was any negotiation on the subject.
Colonel GREVILLE did nut think there could be any
objection to • deputation waiting on the noble lord on any
subject whatever. The object of the deputation was one In
which he did not concur.

Mr. V. SCULLY complained that the right hen. mem-
ber for Backs (Mr. Disraeli) bad used language of a dero-
gatory character in speaking of Irish gentlemen who were
hilly equal to himself in position and in respectability. He
did not see why. when a number of Irish members met,
there should be this prying into what they bad been doing.
A number of English members waited on Lord Derby to
complain of his ffelicitor•General introducing a bill whieh
had • retrospective clause much stronger than that which
was now condemned. He conceived that there was some-
thing worth having in the bill, even in its present mutilated
state, and which he for one was disposed to accept as an
instalment, and then agitate for the remainder. On look-
ing over the division list they found that only 102 members
voted for the clause; and as It was a thin house, and there
were many liberals who were not present, a number of
members met together and decided on going to head-quar-
ters. They thought that if the clause could be brought for-
ward again in a fuller house they might carry it. The
noble lord received them with his usual courtesy, listened
to their representations, and said they should have his beet
consideration, but there was no compact.
Mr. DISRAELI said he should not enter into the ques-
tion, so often debated, of the relations of Lord:Derby's go-
vernment to the measure recently proposed by the govern-
ment. Lord Derby had been waited upon both by his
friends and his opponents, and all he would say on the sub-
Peet was that in both cases his lordship, no doubt, acted in
accordance with the dictates of hie conscience. lie (Mr.
Disraeli) had been bawd of using insulting language in
speaking of Irish members. He utterly deeded that he had
den. so, and be called upon the boo. and learned gentleman
(Mr. &say) to state what was the language on which he
founded that bensatioa.
Mr. SCULLY said he was quite 00;410 with the right
hon. gestlemea's explanation. (Laughter.)
Lord C. HAMILTON appealed to the committee whether
this was, se the right hoe. gentleman (Sir 0. Grey) had
supposed, the ordinary case of a deputation to a minister.
Would the right hon. gentleman tell him of another in-
stance in which a small clique bad been termed a deputa-
tion ? (Cheers) The Irish members were ell in town, and
not a syllable bad been communicated on the subject of a
deputation to those with whom he (Lord C. Hamilton) was
associated. Eighteen persons had called themselves a
deputation; but he denied that they were invested with
that character. It was a curious circumstance that this bad
taken place since the notice of the hon. baronet the member
for Hertfordshire was placed on the paper. (Opposition
elem.)
Mr. SCULLY explained.
Mr. MAGUIRE said no formal communication was made
to him as to the intention to send a deputation to the noble
lord. There was nothing derogatory in a deputation, pro-
vided the government were sincere on the questiooi; but it
was evident they were not. It was not by courteous inter-
views that the g nut mould be coerced, but by a con-
sistent, resolute, independent coarse. (Hear, bear.) It was
by certain members acting as a balance, whatever might be
the ministry, and he and others would sot in that manner.
What they had to do was to keep themselves dangerous
to honourable gentlemen on eitber side of the house.
Mr. BOWMAN said that the communications, about
which so much bad been said, had been addressed to lien.
Toe facts were these : A statement had been made to him
by two hoe. members on the other side, who said it was eery
desirable *het the government should propose tke re.inser-
the government could not feel itself jestified in toting such
ties of the 14th clause. He replied that he thought that
a step. He was then asked what bursa the government
would pursue supposing that the re-insertion was proesered
by an independent member. To this he replied that if Mott
course were pursued the government would vote as thy'had
before done—in favour of the Manse. At the same time he
had explained that he had no authority to bind the govern-
ment. Subsequently he saw the roble lord at the read of
the government, who approved of the statement which he
(Mr. Hemmen) bad made. AU them communications took
place before the notice , f tho motion of the hon. bermes.;
(Sir E. B. Lytton) opposite.
Sir J. FIeROUSSON protested against the waste of time
Is this desultory and unproductive conversation.
Mtn a few words from Mr. MALIIIII,
The CIIAIRIKAN put the question that be ',port pro-
gress, when was carried in the affirmative.
Upon the motion that be do leave the chai.e,
Mr. protested against the, committee befog
hurried tnGtoaNdNerision. He ocnndered 'rt an disgroccful and
diagastiog—(loud cries of "order") —that any hon. mem-
ber should eedenvour to prevail upon the government to
treertarri a deliberate decision of the how..
Mrs J. SADLEIB, denied t'.at there was anything irre-
gular in any section of the irouse waiting upon a minister to
mimes their °piston.
Kr. CHICILBSTER FOBTESCUE said be had not