The Express.
London, England, 1863-02-14 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING,- FEBRUARY 14, 1863.

• Mr. COX said he would explain to the house how it was
that the rights of the public over the forma of Hainanit
and Epping had been encroached upon. The fact was that
under the provisions of the Copyhold Enclosure Act it was
not now cecasary to give noticeto the public of what the
Soodthssjoikers proposed to do, sad their provisional order,
were embodied in a bill by the Rome Secretary, and it wax
introduced into the house without attention being called to
the subject, and thus the public were deprived of their
rights. He contended that it would be only proper and
right that the address should he carried, as parties acting on
behalf of the crown gave up the rights of the public over
these forests without any notice being given of their inten-
tion to to do. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. PEEL said that the motion of the bon. gentleman
was expressed in very general terms. When Hainault
Forest was disatioreated the public received an award, and
after that was dune ell the interests of the crown came to
an end. As to Epping Forest, the crown did not peens
any part of the soil that all belonged to the lords of the
manors and other pinions who had received grants front
them. The crown rights only extended to the keeping of
deer on the lauds, which were in the= days not of the
slightest value to the crown, and any interference in regard
to than would only end in inconvenience to the public.
Mr. Kennedy, the Commissioner of Forest Lands, in April,
1e53, recommended that some portion of these lands should
be preserved for the public, and since that year the
Treasury bad suctioned the sale of the rights of the crown
over forest lards on that footing. The return presented to
the house would show the quantity of land made public
since that time. The object of the hon. gentleman was not
fair either towards the crown or to the owners of the soil—
to the former because the rights of the crown were obsolete,
and to the latter because they would not be able to nickel
any use of their
_property. The rights of the crown could
only be preserved by proceedings in the Court of Exche-
quer, which were attended with great exposes. In one case
the costa had amounted to 4,0001., while the rights of the
mown over the property were worth only 1004 On the
part of the government he felt bound to resist the motion
of the hon, gentleman, as they did not thiak the public
should have the promiscuous use of property on or over which
the crown had merely the forestal rig)at of keeping deer.
Sir G. GREY said that when the enclosure of .Chigwell
was under discussion AO objection was made which caused
the bill to be referred to a 'elect committee. The report
of that committee caused considerable modification' to be
made in the COMMIASiOnere scheme. It was then decided
that DO enclosure scheme having reference to land within
13 miles of London or of any other large town )should be
agreed to without havingghe attention of the house "pa-
cifically directed to the annum. That would meet such
cases as that of Epping-forest, whereas if this address were
adopted it would be necessary entirely to revile the En-
closure Act.
Mr. BUXTON said that what he should %au wished
was that government should select some of the high grounds
of Epping-forest for the recreation of the public, in which
case We low swampy portions might be as well unloads
not, Hit it wail absolutely necemary that enough should be
preserved to give exacts* and fresh air to the me-
thanes and their families of the eastern portions of
the metropolis. The population of the Tower Hamlets
was 630,000, and was rapidly increasing. No people worked
harder or more constantly, and no place was accessible to ,
them for air and exercise except Epping-forget, Victoria-
park being too much to the north-east. During the last
summer 76,000 peruse went down to Epping by rail, besides
all who went on foot or by other conveyances. He himself
bad lived for some time on the borders of the Forest. and
had never witnessed a more delightful spectacle than it ex-
hibited on summer Sundays when crowded by mechanics
and their families. All that was necessary to preserve thins
advantages to the public was that the government should
maintain its forestal rights. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. LOCKS—It ws quite clear that if the mown main-
tained its (vegetal rights, Epping-forest could not be en-
closed. All that was asked was that it should not be dia-
afforested. (Hair, hear.)
Mr. AYRTON considered that the hon. member for
Maldon had taken the proper mile= to obtain the opinion of
the house on the question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was one question whether the land under discussion should
be left open for the recreation of the politic, and another,
whether the house should bind the omen, that ender no
circumstances should it sell its forestal righter over any
land within 15 miles of Loudon. The hoe. membw's
motion went to deprive the government of any freedom of
action even where a sale might be made to the great ad-
vantage of the publie.
Mr. HENLEY denied that the motion would have the
result pointed out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
What was asked waa, that the crown should exercise its
right, asdi seek exercise would be sufficient to pre-
vent improper enclosures. That was what be believed
would be the practital result of the present motion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the motion went a little
too far, and regraded a modification in the tarots.
Mr. ILALTNS was of a similar opinion, sad =greeted
that the motion should be withdrawn and a more modified
one introduced. (Loud cries of " No, no.")
Lord ENFIELD hoped that the host. member for Maldon
would not withdrew his motion. (Hear, hear.) Year after
year them enclosures took plan, and the privileges of the
public were curtailed. If the crown would only maintain
tin fereaal rights they could not take One, and be believed
that perm= who purchased did so under heavy res.passi-
bility, as their titles might at any this, be rendered invalid
within twenty years by an eisertion of the COMMON right
of the public.

The house divided. 'The nirebeis were:
For going into supply
Against ll3-40
The annotunneateet wee received with cheer&
The amendment was then agreed to, sad the motion for
supply was adjourned tin Monday.

- - -
PeST-OFFICE SAVINGS HAMM.
The home having gone late committee to oneider this
stibMd,
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved •
neckties to entisories the bringing in a bill relating to
these beaks, stating its principal provisions. The chief
legislative object of the beM woe, he malt to enable the old
levities beaks to wind up. Another provision was intended to
facilitate the treader of dimwits or morn (maces savings
bank to mother. The reaolutioa further coatemplated the
sanctioning of a limited power of extending the principle of
the coeversioe of perpetual into terminal:de annuities by
operating on the funds in the hoods of the government be-
longing to the Post-office easier-banks. He proposed to
convert the annuities now held into permanent annuities of
a lower denomination, and the differ s:we of value between
the two into terminable munition
Mr. AYRTON said that, if he clearly understood the pro.
petition of the tight boo. goatlesian, it was this —lOOl. of
three per cent stock would be convected into 1001. two.
and-a-half per nat. stock, and • nettle amount of ter.
saleable annuity, which would cease at • fixed date, when
only the two-end-it-belt per cent Meek would be left.
When the temensable amenity awed, would not the capital
of the posteeffiee savings basks be diminished to that
extent! How ins that capital to be lie Irina?
The CHANCELLOR ci the EXCHEQUER said he
thought the hon. member did not clearly apprehend the
proposal. They had entirely cleared from the Post-office
savings bank scheme these ambiguities which attached
to the Matins of different parties concerned in
the old ovine banks. Post-office savings beaks
wen simply banks giving a certain fixed interest
for the depilate of the public, and the public uoderstood
that the credit and the property of the coustry were their
security for the due payment of that interest. This being
the case, the tablas either knew nor cared what was dose
with the moon while it was in the heeds of the govern-
ment; for if it were seed profitably the public gained
nothing, and if otherwise they lost nothing. As to whether
the Post-office saving, bank system was • paying system, be
should not enter into that emotion, es the materials for
coming to a isonelasice were not then before the home. Bat,
while not prepared Waren anything positively, he believed,
and the very diligent and intelligent public °Moms who had
been engaged in developing this system fully believed, that
those banks would not met the country • single shilling.
(Hear, hear.) Even supposing the cam as put by
the boo. member, that there was a immer-
sion into • dock of a lower denomination, which
was of less value in the market, the difference CAM
to this, that instead of receiving • fixed ram from year to
year, they would receive two things-cue, • fixed sum in
perpetuity of • lower amount, and therefore representing a '
smaller capital ; sad the other, • circulating system which
from year to year brought back portions of the capital along
with the sienna interest. Theee portions of the capital, with
other deposit monies, would be for annual re-investment,
and this was the mode in whit* the system would work.
The question whether Pastoffice leviers banks were self-
topportittg wee hishly importaat, ad would be the subject
of • aearching Mclean.
le reply to Mr. WIGUILIII,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid the
process would be simply this—taking the smallest example
of a particular amity of 3 per coot., they would oncel
that easeity, sad matte in lieu of it • perpetual annuity
of 30a. per eget., cesvertisig the other 10a. into an annuity
terminable at • Axed period, say perhaps 1585. With re-
spect to the fortification and other anouities, the govern-
ment had been is the habit of consulting the fioancial
officers attached to it, and also the governor and deputy
governor of the Beak ci Eegland, and there was never any
difficulty as to the rate of interest, which was always mek
rather 'favourable to the purchaser than otherwise, and
would therefore be favourable to the buyer of the meaty
in this cam.

Yr. HENLEY would not express any °pinto' n upon th•
scheme at present. but it corteraly seemed to bun like pay-
ing the lenient in two &Rant ways, Which was an eat
method of reducing a debt. (A laugh.)
The motion wee then avoid to, sad the hoses resumed.
CUSTOMS ACT (TOBACCO DITTLES).
On the mottos for 101st into committee.
Colossi DICUSON wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if he would allow • drawback to those merchants
who had already paid the ditty as their Mock in bend ?
The CHANCELLOR of Uwe EXCHEQUER said the
coons aineted simian the lest 19 yeah would be followed la
tkr iagittost, sad so drawback amid be allowed, as it
afield interfere WWI the enshiaked practice, and anus the
greatest insoandene.
T b. boon thee west isle essinitese.
The CHANCELLOR of the MEW= maned all
fOllO.l 6111111011/illll4 That la lies tie duties si.l
customs sow charged upon tits several Made of minder
tared tobsexe eadennestleard the followieg duties shell he
- sad paid timer' am impeded= rt.

Britain and Ireland on and after the day of 1 sr,3 :
cigars, ss. the lb. . • snuff, Is. 9d. the lb. ; other manatee.
tarred tobacco, 4s. the lb. 2. That on and after tbe
day of 1863, unmanufactured tobacco warehoused in
any warehouse approved for security of duties of customs
may, in sock warehouse, be manufactured or converted into
the articles denominated Cavendish or negrohead tobacco ; and
upon every pound thereof produced by such manufacture or
conversion there shall be charged and paid on the delivery
I thereof foe home consumption the customs duty of Is. Bd.
He bad placed the first resolution oe the as a matter
1 of convenience, and for the information of thepaper house and the
' public, and not because it was necessary to do so as • matter
of form. The resolution was not one which would take im-
mediate effect, for it was • case In which it was desirable
that full time should be given for consideration. At the
present time there was a monopoly for the home manufac.
tom, with the exception of certain articles of luxury which
could afford to pay • high duty, which amounted to • total
exclusion of foreign competition. The duties, therefore,
upon tobacco might be considered the only relic of • system
which once was the regulating principle of our tariff.
It might seem strange that these duties should
have escaped revision for such • length of time,
and that the manufacturers of tobacco should not have beau
placed on a footing with other manufacturers, and be sub-
)ected to the competition with other nations. The obstacle
in the way hitherto had been the difficultywhich the go-
vernment had encountered in securing the interests of the
revenue. That difficulty had, however, now met with •
solution. The plan proposed would involve the manufac-
ture of navel:dish and negrohead tobacco in bond ; but all
he (the right hon. gentleman) asked was the assent of the
house to the general principle that the present prohibitory
duty could cot be maintained. Nepohead and cavendish
tobacco were now extensively smuggled, as there was prac-
tically a monopoly to the foreign manufacturer, because
the production of this negrohead and cavendish tobacco
was forbidden to the manufacturer at home. Considerable
quantities, however, found their way into consumption ; but
the government would now endeavour to get rd of this
smuggling by means of a fair rate of duty, and by giving
permission to the home manufacturer to enter into • com-
petition which be did not at present enjoy. There were
two modes by which this could be done—by allowing the
freeuse of duty-paid materials, or by allowing the manufac-
ture in bond. The first plan would be attended with serious
danger to an important branch of the revenue, and they
therefore proposed the system of inanufactwe in
bond. With respect to cigars and the other de-
scriptions of tobacco, the system would go on as at present.
The reasons which influenced him in proposing to deal with
the subject were threefold : first, it would extend the prin-
ciple of free competition, which had been found to work so
satisfactorily with reference to other manufactures ; secondly,
it would tend to diminish smuggling, and in that way would
increase legitimate trade; and, thirdly, it would have •
considerable effect upon the revenue. He could not sub-
mit any ' sr estimate of the immerse that might be
ex but the result would, be believed, be very bone-
. He trusted he had stated sufficient to induce the
house to accept the general outline of the measure, to which
alone he asked a preliminary as He begged it might
be well understood that the resolution would not affect the
present rates of duty. When the house wee in committee
on the bill would be the time to settle what the duties
should be, and when the change should take effect. He
should hold himself at liberty, if there were Load cause
showo,,to mskeknodificatioos 'ultimo propoeaL (Hear.) He
had not had ao opportunity of consulting the trade, but in-
tended to communicate with them before further progress
was made in the measure. (Hear, hear.)
A discussion arose is which Sir G. Bowyer, Mr. Craw-
ford. Mr. Ayrton, Mr. Williams, Mr. Locke, Mr. Roebuck,
and Sir S Northeote took part.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid that the
points raised during the conversation on the subject he had
introduced called far but a few observations from
him. With reference to the statement of the
hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, that there
already existed free competition between the tobacco manu-
facturers of this country, he would only say that when the
monopoly is corn was attacked, they were told that there
was free competition between agriculturists. The day for
fighting that battle had passed away. The hon and learned
member for Southwark said that a reduction of the duty on
nnmanufactured tobacco would be followed by an increase of
revenue. Reduction of duty and increase of revenue, how.
ever, did not invariably go together, and from the inquiries
he had made on the subject, he was convinced that any
material reduction of the duty on unmanufactnred tobacco
would lead to • very large reduction of revenue. Practically
the question which the house would have to consider,
would be whether they would select that article in
preference to other articles. Those selected would,
he believed, yield additional revenue, and, to a
peat extent, prevent smuggling. With reference to
the possible loss of duty from the circumetasse that no
date was named from which the reduction would lake effect,
he believed it would be very small indeed. A week or fort-
night, more or less, would make little difference. The effect
of naming no specific time io the resolution was that • bill
similar in form would be introduced, and the reduction
would talie place only when the royal assent was given to
the bill. It was desirable that they should not proceed
with precipitancy • but at the same time they
ought to deal with the proposition without undue delay.
With regard to the manufacturers, he merely desired to
give them such time as might be neesimary to enable them
to bring their views fully before the government and the
house. He should himself think that a very short time
would entice for that
purpose, and if the house went into
eorarn ittee upon the bill in a fortnight, they might within
that period very well dispose of all the questions that might
be raised. Then there was the practical question put by
kis hon. friend as to the manufacture of cigars in hood. It
must be borne is mind that the manufacture in bond was
at best a very defective, clumsy, and costly expedient.
It was, however, better to permit such manufacture than
to prohibit the trade altogether ; but this privilege, given
to manufacturers, was attended by various drawbacks.
The enjoyment of it was absolutely limited to a very few
spots where the customs had considerable establishments
which enabled them to conduct the necessary supervision.
The opinion of the government was that there was no mfg.
Mont reason for granting power to manufacture cigars in
bout, but when he was asked whether that was
an irrevocable opinion and was an essential pert of
the proposition, most certainly he thought that
all sxa matters were perfectly open for discussiod. The
masiderations by which they were guided were considera-
tions in which all took a common interest, viz., a desire to
reconcile as well as they could the several interests of the
consumer, the manufacturer, and the revenue. Therefore,
he held himself entirely open to examine further the eaten.
ion of the hooding privilege to other places than he had
named, but be was bound to say that, as far as his investi-
gations had hitherto gone, be was not aware of any sufficient
reasons why itohouhi be so extended.
After a few word' from Mr. Amos, in explanation,
The resolutions were agreed to.
The house resumed, and the committee was fixed again
far Monday next.
DRAINAGE (IRELAND) (STAMPS).
-

'The home went into committee on Drainage (Ireland)
(Stamp), whoa cartels reeolutaons were agreed to.

INNKEEPERS' LIABILITY.

Mr. W. MARTIN moved for LW. to introduce •
• bill to •mend the law respecting the liability of innkeeper,
and to prevent certain frauds upon them. The hon. mem.
ber mid that as he did sot anticipate any opposition to the
motion be would content himself by eayunc that the object
of the measure was to deal with • serious and growing
fraud upon that class of persons.
The motion was then agreed to.
The bill was subsequently brought is end nod • Ant
time.
MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS.

Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH moved for leave to bring in a
bill to amend the mode of taking votes at municipal elem
Mona He mid the object of the measure warn to remedy an
increasing evil which was experienced at these eleetious
throughout the country.
The motion was agreed to, and the hon. member brought
in t►e bill, which was reed a first time.
The home adjourned at tea minutes aftereewec.

RAILWAY AND PDBLIC COMPANIES IM PANLTA-
MINT.—YeaercIay the only bills before the examiners and
which were declared to have complied with the standing
enters of parliament, were the London end North Western
Railway, for conferring various additional powers on that
nomppssy, and amongst them for making extension lines in
Htidderedld, in the West Riding, and at Wigan, in om-
m:ion with the North Union ; for taking new lands in
Cheshire, Lancashire, Northamptonshire, Staffordshire. and
Middlesex ; for local arrangements with various other com-
panies and corporations, including the Great Eastern, Gnat
Western, West Midland, and Irish North Western ; and to
miss an additional capital of 1.50,0001. Devon Valley Rail-
way, to reduce capita, cancel shares, °stood time, and make
arrangements with North British and other companies. Put.▪ and Fulham New Bridge and Pier.
MiersorouTsfs BENIPIT Socnerfes' Afirms.—
' On Wednesday the series of free lectures in the chapel
of this iastitutMu, Pand-road, were brought toe close
by Mims Wallington, who gave her well-known entertain-
ment, " An evening with Thomas Hood and others," with
perfect satisfaction ; receiving continued marks of applause,
which she well meted. Mr. Knowles, a member of the
, Omer of Foresters, delivered the previous lecture, which
was on " Coal Mines," with diagrams sod experiments, in
which be lucidly explained the accident at Barnsley pit. So
much success has attended these gratuitous mitertainmente
that the committee have armored for two others extra, the
next on Ash-Wednesday—being a reading from Macbeth,
by Mr. Stuart. of the Adelphi Theatre, and the last ez
Prow. G.M. Mitchell, Manchester Unity, on "Palertine,
with dissolving views and musical secompsoimeste
The Tines of JUDO 11, 1862, !peaking of Benson's
GINA Cheek is the ithibitten, mays:—' As As a rmple of English
deck-week en • hew seals, the works d this Sr. probably the
Awl Ihisisid that Weever been sees in this onantry--no chro-
me/Neer Gadd he Stied with more parted or renttallyadjusted
aselnalsni." BCILIMI'II sew Show-rooms contain Clocks designed
by the Mt artists of the da, sad include docks for the drawing.
roe" 4/bang-room, beireen, library, hat elairens, bracket.
carriage. lioreh. tenet, inty•
with usnelenl. seerseel. sled eew=Ben essur==
=set he the beaborgamity 04 eel le at mere
Orme enil UM' webeedeg_ iiihneged for.
Ilmsen's Illastrated Pensphlet e and Wetbestaires.a
got fee tern Owe; essigne a short litstery of
tai anengsseelpthine and prier. It ads se • guile in the
a. dock or 6.11111. sad emblem these vim Pm in
Leland, Weise, the Cambs. Ind* or say of the
wed& b• abet • aka...4111ml $l, Isidgahbain,
MIN 174111--(AdvertlemassL) Leaya ]his

RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.

GREAT WI47'ERN.

After ear repos left yesterday.
The CHAIRMAN said th►t, with the exception of the share-
holders' committee's recommendation as to the Fiat Glou-
cester scheme, he bad no objection to the adoption of their
resolutions.

Mr. Baown, in reply, said the resolutions must all be
agreed to, and if so, he would suggest a mode of protecting
the company's honour uto their engagements with refer-
ence to the East Gloucester line. _ _

--TheCRAII3IIAN 4mAto-Won terms, and Mr. Brown
congratulated the meeting on the harmony between the
board and the shareholders. He proposed a committee of
conference to carry out the resolutions.
Sir William Miles, Mr. Breve, Mr. Lancaster, Mr. Adams,
Mr. Miles, Mr. Mortimer, and Mr. Withers were then op-
;ted to Pouter with the directors, and the dividend hay.-
been declared, the formal business was disposed of.
The by-law, proposed by Sir William Miles, limiting the
power of the directors to introduce new bills into parlia-
ment, was approved of, and the meeting adjourned to the
13th of March to receive the report of the committee.