The Express.
London, England, 1862-04-05 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, 1862.

could apply to the Board of Trade that at audit might take
place hy the auditor of the Board, and the accounts a.
audited were open to the inspection of the shareholders.

T4AN3ATLANTIC STEAMERS.

Mr. ECU LLY asked tie President of the Board of Trade
whoa be upseted that the Tetanal u to the Trams/is*
sisessees, ordered es the Mak lrebruarr sod 3rd Mara MA
would be laid before this house.

I,lll3BtiN said the return referred to by the hoe.
seembor was in progress of preparation, end only *wetted
tb reports of sofas owners to be furnished.

CONVENTION WITH MEXICU.

_ _......, .
Mr. PITZGIIMALD inquired whether the government
bad received official informatics relative to the convention
said to have been entered into at Soledad between the allied
powers and the government of Mexico ; whether the British
force had been or WAS about to be withdrawn from the Merit*.
ries of the republic; and whether instructions had bees seat
out to the British minister approving of the terms et the
convention. _ _

Mr. LAY ARD mid that her Majesty's government had
received official information that a convention had been
signed between the commanders of the allied powers and
the Mexican government. The British force—it indeed it
could be called a force—had probably been by this time
withdrawn from Mexico, with the exception of a small body
of men. That force consisted of GOO marines, and by the
pavers which hod been laid on the table of the house it
would appear that it was not the intention of the govern-
ment that theme marines should take any part in the expedi-
tion into the interior of the country. They would be
brought back with the exception of RIO men, who would
remain behind to carry on the ordinary duties. The govern.
aunt approved generally of the couvention,not perhaps as to
all its articles, but on tbs whole it carried out their inten-
tion. He wished to state distinctly that her Malady's
government disclaimed all desire to interfere in the Miasma
affairs of Mexico. He trusted that the Mexican government
would he satisfied with the negotiations and peaceful mea-
sures adopted, and would not render a resort to hostilities
necessary, and he hoped that the convention would fulfil tho
exrectationa formed of it,
Mr. FITZGERALD inquired whether the papers re-
lating to the convention would be laid on the table of the
. .

—. .
Mr. LAI AHD mid he did not know there was any ob-
jects)n to the production of the papas. He would answer
the how gentleman's question on Monday.

they hit her or not was not very apparent. But there were
other batteries. The Merrimac cause on, and the first object
she met was the Cumberland, which was lying under the
batteries of Newport News. These batteries were armed
with heavy Columbiads, larger than 08-. pounders, which
repesta struck the Merrimac; notwithstanding, she
dented the Cumberland in Mu-en-hour under the bat-
teries. But though the Newport News batteries were very
powerful the Merrimac paid no attention to them, but
shelled the camps on the other side. (Hear, hear.) It was
asked why she did rot shell Fort Monroe? No doubt if
the Monitor had not arrived the Minnesota would
have shared the fate of the Cumberland and
the other vessels destroyed, and then the Merri-
mac would have attacked Fort Monroe. So the Americans
feared themselves, and so great was the alarm at New York
that • meeting was called to consider whether, in spite of
the fortification at Sandy Hook, the passage to New York
should not be blocked up to prevent the Merrimac from
paring up. What happened next! The Monitor made her
appearance. This was • vessel never heard of before, built
in three months at • cost of 60,0001. She was the saving
of New York harbour. This vessel had been called Captain
Ericreon's invention • but it was, in fact, • pirated inven-
tion from a gallant Englishman, • countryman of our own—
(hear)—of whom he (Mr. Osborne) hoped to bear
more—Captain Cowper Coles. (Hear, hear.) Let
them for a moment see whet Captain Cam's original
proposals were. So long ago as 1858 Captain Coles had
laid a plan before the Admiralty for the conetrostion of such
a boat. A committee sat upon this plan ; they not only
sat upon it, but they approved of it, and then the plan was
laid by —(a laugh)—and no more was heard of Captain
Coles's plan mad ship until this action occurred in America,
and the Admiralty seemed to be under the notion that the
vessel was the invention of Captain Ericsson, where Cap-
tain Coles wan the inventor. But then it was said that
Captain Coles's plan had been tried on the Trusty.
The noble lord, in answer to a question put by
him (Mr. Osborne) the other night, in that seam
and bland tom which be adopted to wer& everybody, mid.
"Well, I have begun a ship on Captain Cass', plan." Ns
(Mr. Osborne) wanted to know where that ship was, and
where it we. being built. (Hear, hear.) He denied that
there was any ship in construction. There might ham
been • rumbling intention—(a laugh)—of building such a
ship, but be denied that any such vessel had bees began;
and be wanted to know why, when that plan of Captain
Coles had beau approved, it was quietly putts bed. (A
laugh.) The soilslord would, no doubt, tall them Oak
the vessel was Weeded to be built, bosom. of theene,
the sage lent eenld not resist any Lcac
Captain Chles's lips must be had, as everybody
known these six years who has read the math et the eeth
minium The Aniencens had been Jinni& theintl been
rather satisfied with the experiment width MI Idea
in Hampton Roads. But as official dillies/Ise, bed se I
doubt, attended the supersediog of the old erose-bow by the
matchlock, of the matchlock by the Brown BMA. and of the
Brown Bees by the Enfield ride—there were many, as they
knew, who stall thought the Brown Bea • meet excel.
lent weapon—(hear, hear)—eo it would be with our
iron ships. The ' fact was our great men were
were very slow to be coovinoad—(bear, hear)—and be had
no doubt that unless the Home of Commons urged them on,
they would be as slow as the man of former times. What
was the contrast in 'unsnap.? There was • bill beim the
house for building ironclad steamers of 5,000 tons, and for
eonstructing steam batteries, for which they had voted
2,600,000/. destined for the defence of their coasts and har-
1 boars,and for their seaboard from Portland to the Chesapeake.
New when they had got their warrant they MOM
&gay acted upon it. They did not elect to
defend their route by forte, they did not appoint a com-
mission, but went about to construct ships upon Captain
Cuss's plan, which was suggested six years ago to the Ad-
' admlty. So much for the Encases battery which had bees
invented by our gallant countryman, Captain Cowper Coles.
(Hear.) But there was another circumstance that he
thought it well for the house to take into their considers-
tion helm they decided upon going on with the coruitsvm
non of these kart., which he thought also most material.
It was stated by the lay Lord of the Admiralty, the boa.
member for Bedford, the other night, when questioned es to
the increase of dock accommodation at Portsmouth that
the Admiralty hesitated ter inereue that accommodates
because there were ealy certain periods of the mouth 11111111
the now cleft of vessels like the Warrior, drawing 26 feet of
water, meth go over the bar into Pornenesth
Harker, Whet were they going to do after with
a statement as that! Were they about to lavish mousy
upon them forte—he (Mr. Osborne) having shown the home
that they woad sot binder nom-clad ships from enann(
theharbour! Her, hear.) Ware they going to lay out
this vast sum of mosey vbsa time we. doubt in the Ad-
miralty itself whether Poenneesth amid ecevesiently be
made a harbour for the new elms et vase &? Meer, WO
Were they going precipitately to mat late this Tote is the
face of the evidence given by a person well acquainted with
the working of the Admiralty? It might be said, " It h
very expensive to put an end to Mr. Leather's contract."
But I believe that contract only extends to the building of
the works. There is no contract for building the entire
forts or for arming them with wrought iron, and the go-
vernment oould stop the works at any time by giving this
gentleman compensation for his plant, for which of course
he had • right to ask. But he would ask, was it not good
economy on the part of her Majesty's government, it the
house should be of opinion that these forts were not
sufficient protection, to pay this compensation, and not
throw good money after bad? (Cheers.) He did nut mean,
upon so grave a question as the defence of this country, to
urge mere economical considerations ; but all be asked was
that the money should be well spent and the works well
built. (Cheers.) But it had been said that, as a matter of eco-
nomy, forts were lees costly because more durable this
ships. The answer to that was admirably put in the pam-
phlet of Captain Coles:—" As to the argument that fortis
are less costly than ships because more durable, the answer is
obvious—the value of an engine of war is measured by its
efficiency, and forte will neither atop an iron easel nor pre-
vent b• r from bombarding the dockyard* and are extrava-
gantly dear at any price. (Loud cheers.) Even one iron ship
might stop at least one other, by engaging her muzzle to
muzzle, runniugdown, or boarding, but I defy the whole of
the proposed forts to stop even one iron-cased ship."
(Renewed cheers.) That had been acknowledged by the
commissioners themselves, and he thought therefore that
the argument of forts being more permanent when • floating
battery could be built at even less than 60,000/. fell at one
to the ground. (Cheery.) He thought that the whole Noel
of modern wader*, as opposed to the old idea of warfare,
was mobility against permanence. (Hear, hear.)
Sir S. M. PETO seconded the motion, and congratulated the
house upon its altered tone upon this subject. It was his bee
lasts: mum to move this resolution and not to have • eagle
supporter. He rejoiced that such would not on the present
recision bathe fate of the motion of his hon. friend. (Hear.)
Mr. BENTLNCK had ventured to put a motion on the
paper by way of supplement to that of the hon. and gallant
member. It was as follows : " And that this house will,
on an early day, resolve itself into a committee, for the
purpose of empowering the government to apply any portion
of the moneys which have been voted for the construction of
forte to the construction of iron-sheathed mewls, or to the
conversion of wooden vessels into iron-sheathed vessels."
He eutirely agreed with the gallant gontleman, but thargh
his resolution was in the right direction, lie did not think it
went far euuugh. He had planed his addendum on the
in no party spirit, be merely wished to patr.Pesloulder to the wheel in a common emergency. Is
hie opinion anyone who introduced party feeling into the
matter would be unworthy of a mat in that house. (Hear,
hear.) Let them all work together in a cordial spirit, and
let no man introduce controversy or dissension. All he
asked was that they should not convert a question of diffi-
culty into absolute danger by exhibiting a want of that
energy which had always b seu deemed ao attribute of this
country. (Cheers.)
Lord PALM F.RSTON, in the course of his reply,said—By
the end of this year I believe there will be five wooden ships
plated with iron, tit for sea • and the Achilles, an
iron ship, next year •' and besides that, there are
four other iron ships ordered and in rooms of construction;
is addition to which tenders have been sent out for the coo.
structios of &hips on Captain Cole's principle, which I be-
lieve will turn out,to be the most effectual—whether capable
of going to sea is another thing, but for all purposes of coast
damns we are of opinion that that construction of vessel
will be the most effectual. Experiments have been made
on that cupola, and those experiments have been successful,
Cupolas on that principle have turned out to be proof against
any shot that can be tired against them, and I have no
doubt that those ships will prove to be of the greatest
possible efficiency. I mention these things to show that the
Admiralty have not been inactive, but that they have been
salve as fee as the means afforded by parliament have
enabled then. They have already realised some means af
dolmen this kind. tither means are in course of
nikw mini will give us in the year 1864 sixteen iron=
' et Mont cites, but all of them very respectable and
feenidatie ships of war. Then we come to the question
whether, with regard to the defences at Portsmouth mei ,1
/pithead, forte or iron vessels are the best. New
much has been said in disparagement of the report of the
Deem Commission, but gentlemen seem to forget Oaths '
newinthemdation of the Defame Commission was tint thin
Oka& be both forts and forting batteries, and they In-
laid that 1,000,000/. should be devoted to the construe-
' Sea of Ibelles daimon. We felt that when the question was
several minims for the purpose of erecting
releggle.V.Maideekyards—which, I admit, are of great im-
paringe were justified, inasmuch as those defences_ were
pesmenwt works which would last for • great many years
be emme, that we were justified in dealing with them as
imposteonste of the fresheit, and, therefore, in charging
the more upon the taweitold for a certain number of
yap le seer ; that is S. my in providing for them by
lost es terminable anneals% and for a limited period of
time. We doubted whether we should be justified in apply-
ing the awn Osten to the floating batteries, inasmuch
se waft nil treeteilioi mid sot be oeseidered
to be dinable sod pienement as fortifications, and
we mated tote sethethod to parliament to provide
' int el the boa lee the contraction of floating Winks,
bat veldt Snot to be provilled for out of the amid these
for demi' Wee, it aprons sow that it is tuhiniAien et
the he - fist no thee est to be lost in mul erns
.) If we were to aloe, the
advidadetig a=6 hon, =Ng who has just sat down, rod In
rIN all the se
a* pone ships on 1
Iveekti thiseiple, coda* lie upon might It
very oneeldessble ; ben yea would be
I.4ntly
mutant with such a se would he
to aid in the defeoc• of oew and the mat
able yells. Glesdenta lino It is unman to think di
forttping mg owls Se pima invasion. As has bees Se
nit, yes sent* nest Nark, but the enemy will sot aloe

near them. All you csn do is to take certain vulnerable
points which are of the utmost importance to your ravel
terrier, namely, your dockyards, to defend them, and to
leave the rest to be defended by Your army and your
navy. Ilidicule has been attacked to the Martell°
towers. But I do not believe that there Neaten°
towers deserve all the ridicule that has been thrown upon
them. Taking warm it was, when these forte were erected,
mid ships as they then were, I am inclined to think that
thee, Martell° towers were at that time respectable ele-
ments of defence. They are now gone by. like brown beam
and other thiege their day is past, andtbe use of these towers
lately has been to test the power of guns to destroy them.
One of them was of great use is a target to teat the value
of projectiles of different kinds. Well, then, the real
question which the house now is considering
is, whether it is desirable to suspend for a
time, and until a more serious decision can be arrived at
and fuller information gained, the construction of these
forts at Spithead, for the purpose of applying to ,the
construction of iron used ships the money which would
otherwise be expended on fraM. (Hear, bear.) Ido not
mean to deny that there is a great deal of plausibility in the
recommendation, nor do I mean to say that the government
axe indisposed to adopt the course. (Cheers.) The con-
tracts for these forts, as already stated, are not contracts
for oompleting them, but for raising the foundations up to
a certain level. Indeed, the government have not
determined as to what would be the best con-
struction of the forts to be erected on those foundations.
So far from the government having entered into any con-
tract for, the erection of the forts., they have not yet Mora-
tained what would be the best description of forts to be
erected. (Hear, hear.) The contracts go to the founda-
tions, and if the house thinks that some delay would be
advisable in regard to these foundations you will have to
make amends to the contractor—(hear, bear)—for Ices of
time, for the discharging of men, or for their not being re-
sumed, and for materials provided. It might be prudent
to incur that expense for a time until the question has been
mere fully and deliberately and more calmly considered.
The state of the matter is this : In the year before last I
proposed to the home a bill to enable the government to
raise two million, for the purpose of erecting yahoos dock-
yard fortificatious at Portland and Dover. This was, ea it
were, a sum on account in order to begin to a ordain extent
different works specified in the estimate laid be-
fore parliament. More time was found to be no-
ceesary than at that period was imagined, to make accurate
working drawings and for arranging the purchase of land
and although that wassome two years ago, that two mil-
lions will not be payable until the early pert of this saw
mer—about June or July. But it will be payable at that
time for work sanctioned by parliament. It would then
be our duty in the course of this present session to aWy
to parliament for a further power to issue terminable
annuities to continue these weeks, and among them would
naturally be the forts proposal to be created at Spithead.
It would be perfectly in order, and if the house wishes
there will be no difficulty on the part of the government
to do this, because my right hon. friend the Secretary for
War has already instructed the defence commission to re-
examine the question as to the utility of these forte oont-
bined with floating defences, and to make a report thaw
upon. That report will be in the hands of the government
in the course of no great kettl ofiglae. No very considerable
amount of expense would hammered bydairing theooetniater
to suspend the works on those foundations. blikrithat time
is over we shall have to wahmit to perilement a bill far
the further issue of these termaakie annuities, end it will
then be for parliament to decide whether upon the informa-
tion before them, they would yrs jeddieeontinne these forts,
or suspend for • their constructioe,
and to what raiser Vey sight think it advis-
able to devote part of these terminable annuities to a
more rapid construction of theme floating batteries for the
purpose of coast defenses. No doubt these can be made
more rapidly than the fats could be constructed and no
doubt as long as they were available, and no accidest hap-
pened, and they were not sent elsewhere, they would pro-
bably be as effectual as the forts would be ; but there it this
consideration to be bons in mind with regard to the relative
power of forts and iron-need &iols There is a limit both
vto the weight of armour and t of gum to be put on
board a ship which is to doe* iand whole weight clad*
mestnot bepeaterthan the water which itellspisesa
If it be greater the ship will go down, bet there is we seek
limit with respect to a fort, is it is obvious you cal give M
any thickness of bastion or rampart, and place upon it my
gun you can man. It is mid that these forte would take
many thousod expert artillerymen, but I am sure my WM.
and gallant friend the member for Chatham (Sir F. Smith)
will not bear out that view, as it is known that a great part
of the work in • liattm7 is perfermed by handspike men—
(hear, hear)—and that two trained men to • gun are quite
sufficient. lam coeviaced that the improvement in gum
will keep mos with the improvements in armour plating. I
have hard that the French have already constructed A gnei
which will pierce their armour *Dm but perhaps their iron
is not so good as ours, bat still they boast of the
construction. I have no doubt we shall have gun
of the same sort, and it is clear, with • view
to permanent defence, that • combination between
fix detais, and floating defences is the most complete
for the purposes you have In view. (Hear, bear.) But no
doubt time is a great element in them matters, sod if you
can get your floating defences rapidly, you had better do
that than wait the time necessary for the construction of
your permanent defences. (Hear, hear.) The goverament
are quite willing to accept the disposition which seems to
prevail in the house, to give facility for the more rapid or-
ganisation of floating defames (Cheers.) There is the
question as to the relative advanteges of ships built entirely
of iron, such u theWarcior, sad ships suchen those five now
under construction—wooden ships cased with iron - which is
the character of most of those in the French servira. Each
has its advantages. No doubt the ship with iron ribs,
iron skin, and armour plating on the teak, would be
• much better sea boat and better able to resist
the strain at sea than a wooden ship. On the
other hand iron bottoms are liable to get foul, whereas the
wooden vessel, being plated only to • certain extent below
the water line, is better adapted for long sea voyages with-
out undergoing that cleaning which iron ships would require.
Line-of.hattle ships, again, are more easily converted into
iron ships than you can build iron vessels from the begin-
ning. We have • greet many two and three-deckers of
wood, which I quite agree are not competent to meet in
action with iron ships, and therefore it may be the most
economical arrangement to convert more of these into iron-
cased ships. One great change in naval warfare is the in-
troduction of large guns sending hollow shot and shell, sad
It is quite clear, as we sesir b 7! fire fize of the Harriers wpm
the CumberlandandafterwardsupontheCosgrar, thalami
sent lutes wooden ship are most destructive, and :I:i=
va adntage of the iron casing is that shells will not
it. What I should propose to the house is this.—that ry
right hon. friend, having already desired the defeats lOW
mites to reconsider their former report, and to state sofa
with all the knowledge they had duce acquired, and elope-
chilly with the example of what passed the other es is
America, what they think will be the speediest and me*
effectual method of carrying out the defences at Spitting--
that we should give notice to the contractor to seepsrail
operations for the preeent—(bear, hear)--•a rther works
upon that foundation on the hemmed which Me been begun,
and that soon after the rooms we should bring the matter
again under the consideration of the ban, and ask it to
decide which was the best course to pmene—wineliter we
should include in the terminable annuities • sum fro
the more rapid execration of armour-cased venue
for defensive p and whether we should
on that account for the premed suspend any farther opera-
tions on the Spithead forts. (Hear, hear.) The only wish
of the government is to do that which is best for the public
interest. (Hear deer. We have no personal feeling in
the matter. (Haar. hear.) We have no party failing in
the matter—(bear, hear)—and there can be but one common
object with es an, sad that object is far too important to
be rashly or hastily decided. It ought to be fairly nud fully
considered, and we are quite ready to .go with the house
after the recess into isfull and impartial consideration.

Sir J. PAKLNOTON had heard the speech of the noble
lord with the greatest possible pleasure.

Mr. LINDBA Y said the noble lord at the head of the
government had expressed opinions which had over and
over again been given utterance to in that house, and by
members who formed • very small minority. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BEECROFT, referring to the statement of the noble
lord at the head of the government, that iron 10 inches thick
would not offer sufficient relmbuses, said that in that case
840,0004 would be quite inadequate foe the iron work

Lord C. PA.GET said it appeared that the house was per-
fectly willing to went to the proposal of the noble vis-
count, viz., that after the recess the subject should be fairly
and fully considered, and that then the government
would be prepared to make premeds, which would be open
to ample discussion by the house.
Sir J. PAKINOTON asked what would be the draught of
water of the liwof-kettle ships when cut down!
Lord C. PA.GET—I believe, 26 feet.
Sir M. PETO asked if the building of wooden vessels was
to be entirely discontinued?
Lord C. PAGET—To a great extent. There world be
essreely anyilding of wooden vessels.
Sir F. SITM congratulated the government on their
determination to suspend the building of the forts, but he
doubted the wisdom of referring the question beck to the
Defence Commission. He had the most unfeigned respect
for the ability and zeal of the members of that corn.
mission, but he considered it would be better
to refer the subject to a new one, because if
the report of a new commimiou was in favour of the con-
Satiation of the building of the forts it would carry the ,
house with it. But if they cams to a different conclusion
from the former commission the house would feel more
ooefklent as to the course it might think it right to take.
He was astonished that line-of-bettle ships were to be cut
down for the defence of the dockyards, for what was
wanted for that purism was not vessels that would requires
great depth of water, but vessels of a light draught. (Hear.)
Vessels coestructed on Captain Coles principle would be
a great riving of cost in construction, and in the compile-
resat of we sad guns, whilst they would be far more sm.
cent in the defence of the dockyards. With floating
batteries of that kind at their command be did not think the
enemy would be likely to come into the Solent at all.
Atka further discussion, Mr. Biornimit's amendment was
put with an amendment suggested by Sir G. C. Lim.
Mr. FORSTER said that the proposition was virtually
ens that the national debt should be increased for naval
=es. He thought that in the then state of the house
propenition should not be decided.
Lord PALL ERSTON mid that the motion only pledged
the house to go into ammilttee at some future day. The

whole question would be di,eussed after Easter, when a ter-
minable annuity must be proposed for ostryiog on the
works in progress. The boo. member for Norfolk might
then renew his proposition, rind the whole question would
be re-opened
Mr. CROSSLEY must oppose any addition to the bar-
thew of the oountry. With a revenue of 70 millions he
thought they had quite enough to build iron ships. He
should divide the house against the amendment.
The house divided.
For the amendment 74
Against it
The amendment was cAnasequently carried, and added to
the original resolution.
On the report on supply being brought up,
Mr. M. DUNNE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if
it was the intention of the government to introduce any
measure during thia session that would have for its object
the alteration of the law between landlord and tenant, with
• view to recurs to the tenant the value of any permanent
improvement he might have made in his land, if be should
be dispossessed of it, or the value raised on him.
Sir It. PEEL replied that the government were fully
aware of the great importance of the subject and the
cultist surrounding it. They had no intention, however, of
bringing in any measure with regard to it during the pre-
, sent session. He thought the question was one which
should be settled by the ordinary. course of events, and that
nothing should be done which might imperil the rights; of
the landlords and be equally injurious to the interests of the
tenants.

NETLEY HOSPITAL ESTATE.
This bill palmed through committee.
POLICE AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was read a weed time, and the committee liked
for the Bth of May.
The Public-houses (Scotland) Acts Amendment Bill passed
through committee pro formi.
The Charitable Uses Act (1881) Amendment Bill passed
through committee.
The Sir Johu Scene's Museum Bill was read a third time
and pared.
The house then adjourned at twenty-five minutes to
two o'clock.