The Express.
London, England, 1855-05-11 00:00:00

THE VIENNA NEGOTIATIONS.

THE NEWSPAPER STAMP BILL.
In reply to a gaieties ham Mr. Dvia&Au.
Lord PALMERSTON said it wall WI wish of the govern-
ment that the business of the following (this) evening should
communes with the adjourned debate oa this ►ill relating
newspaper sumps, and that the fineasal measure should

M tak*; ;eat.

THE INDIAN ARMY.
Sir E. PERRY rose to mews, is pommies of aotkm, for
a whet committee to consider sad inquire bow the army of
India may be made most available for t►e war is Burope,

and to inquire into the steps necessary to be taken if it
should be deemed expedient to ormatitate the army of the
East India Company a royal army. He said he had now to
bring forward a motion which had stood on the paper for
same weeks, and which the noble lord at the head of the
government had thought of sufficient public interest to
warrant his allowing him to bring it on in yaw
Grease to the government orders. As the media
had bees in some degree changed in Its terms, he
thought it desirable that he should state, before be pro-
ceeded to speak of its merit., what the modes actually
was. His object being :essentially inquiry, he had asked
several members of the house what they considered the beet
method of obtsioiag an impartial inquiry into the facts of the
cue, and he found them unanimously of opinion, that for that
purpose there was nothing to be compared to the appoint-
ment of a select committee. He was also informed that his
subject. being a military one, it would conduce to his
sauna to ask for a royal commission. He framed
his emotion in moordence with that view; but when
he came down to the house on the evening on which the
subject was fixed for dientsein, he found that her Majesty's
government were about to oppose hie motion, on the ground
that what be asked for was a royal chimiesion, and not the
more constitutional tribunal of a selkat, committee of that
house. Accordingly he re-changed the 'lotion to its original
state, and he was confirmed in his opinion that that was the
beet course, by the fact that the hon. stai gallant member
fee Westminster, who would second his 1116 n that evening,
considered that the royal commission whisk had sat upon
the army had proved utterly inadequate to the purposes is
view. He ought perhaps to apologise to the house
for introducing a subject which might perhaps in
many respects have been more adequately treated
by a military man ; but his excuse for doing se was that in
India he had had opportunities of becoming practically ac-
quainted with the civil and military organisation of the
country. He assured the house that he bad no other object
than that of developing the resources of the empire and
strengthening the relations between England and India.
He regarded the subject as one which was at the present
time peculiarly fit for inquiry. Even the answers which
they had heard that night to the questions put by the hon.
member for Manchester, confirmed him in the impression
that it became them all to braes up their minds for &struggle
from which it was impossible for them to with-
draw without disgrace. If this war was to let—and
that it would lest was a possibility which everybody was
untemplating—he affirmed boldly that they must look to
the Indian army fee reinforcements. It was obvious that
India was a country which Mid great military resources ;
and unless the difficulties which presented themselves were
inoperable, they ought to be employed in an emergency
like the present. If the house would allow him, he would
enter into tome details se to the strength of the Indian
army, and as to its organisation and efficiency; and he
could assure the house that sueh details were by no means
within the reach of superficial inquirers. Even now, al-
though he had given his best attention to the subject for
many weeks past, he was not in a petition to give an accu-
rate statement as to the total military force of India.
The lets Sir Charles Napier, soon after accepting the post
of Commander-in-Chief in India, endeavoured to ascertain
what was the amount of the fordo placed under his com-
mand, and he (Sir li. Perry) heard hint state that, after
having summed up the force to the amount of 400,000 men,
he found that there were still troops to he enumerated, and
gave up the task in despair. Daring the last few weeks be
had moved for a return with the view of obtaining accurate
information; but that return did not supply all the fasts
which he desired to lay before the house. He bad gone,
therefore, to parliamentary returns which contained in-
forms, ion here and there on this sabjeet, and he would now
give as complete a statement as he could as to what the
military force at the disposal of the But India Comma,
'tally was. Taking the last return, which was laid Wm,
the committee on lodise affairs in 1853, be found that the
Indian army, including the Queen's troops in the pay
of the East Indian Company, amounted to 289,529 men.
This force included about 30,000 European in the service
of the Queen, end 20,000 in the service of the East India
Company. The contingents supplied by native princes
raised the total to 349,000 men ; and including 35 battalions
of militia, and other forces, the result at which he arrived
was, that there were altogether 457,000 men, and 12,000
officer., who were maintained at an expense of 20,596,0001.
Thi. extr eded the number and expense of the French army
la 1852. In that year the army of France numbered
377.000 men, and 19,604 oftizers, who were maintained at an
aspens, of 12,340,0101. ; so that the number of the Indian
may at that time exceeded that of the French army by
!Dearly 100,000 men, while the excess aeon was 8,000,0001.
It was well known that the army in India was divided into
three distinct arms, each arm having a separate commander-
in-chief, and a separate staff. The commander-in-chief of
the Company's army was also commander in-chief of her
Illejesty's regiments in India. He begged the attention of
the house to the remark which be was about to make, as
it would show what was the fundamental principle of
the emernment of India. This large army was placed en-
tirely under the control of the civil power ; the Governor-
General was supreme over it; all its movements rested
exclusively with him; and, as the late Sir Charles Napier
forcibly ob d, the Commander-in-Chief in India was
nothing more than a monstrous adjutant general. The
house would observe here an embodiment of the principle
which distinguished the governments of modern from thou
of ancient times—the principle, namely, that the army
should be subservient to the civil authority is the state. He
had now to touch upon the efficiency of the army which he
had described; and in order to guard himself against the
presumption of attempting to speak on a military topic like
that, he trusted the house would allow him to read some
sheet extracts which he had culled from parliamentary
documeats, and at the tame tints to state that he had been
careful to select the opinions only of men connected with
her Majesty': ureic*. The first extract which he should
read was from a speech delive,ed in 1813 by the Marquis
Wellesley in the House of Lords:—" The army in India
rested too much oa the footing of profit, without reference
to honours at home. An army more full than the army in
India, of honour, loyalty, and valour, he had never seen,
and he could not have conceived that it would under any
authority hay become otherwise. . . . But it did
happen, somehow or other, that the officers of the army in
India were not held forward to public view as much as other
officers in other parts of the world, and they felt that honour
and disticctions were conferred for services not more merito
rious or important than their own, which were &obi to
them." And, a little later, he said :—" He had had peat
opportunities of trying them (the Indian army) maim
great difficulties and privations, at a distaste@ hemillesir
homes and families, and yet their zeal and an tamer
abated. In the wars of Mysore and Egypt, the native
troops did not hesitate to embark in ships, although
that was contrary to their usage" and prejudices;
and the reason that they so cordially consented to
embark was from teeing that there was no compulsion."
He would now cite the opinion of that gallant officer to 4
whom he had already referred—the late Sir C. Napier. He
ought to observe that that gallant officer went out to India
with the strongest prejudice against the But India Com ,
paay and everything connected with it, and unfortunately
be committed himself to print I but, after having served in
several campaigns with the Indian army, and gained for I
himself immortal honour by the victories obtained while
he was at their head, this was the opinion which he gave:—
" My opinion of the army generally is, that it is a very i
Sue army. The 'adieu artillery I really think is the meet i
'feeder artillery in the world. Its practice is admirable. ,
I have seen a good deal of it. The Royal Artillery may be i
stoerior as a anent fie corps ; but as a practical corps in the
field. is erasing mountains, jungles, rivers, and in every- ,
thing that artillery can be called upon to do in the field, ,
I never saw anything better than the Indian Artillery." ,
Lord Gough said on the same subject:—" I think the Indian
army is neuly perfect. . . There cannot be an army i
more loyal, better disposed, or more ready to do their
duty. It is quite impossible to have a more brilliant set ,
ei officers, or a finer body of men than the Artillery of ,
]angel. . . . I must say of the natives, as well as the
Inropeans, that a more devoted sat of men cannot be found."
I Theo, with regard to the Bombay army, hie gallant friend
lir Willoughby Cotton had often said to him subetan-
tinily in Print* what he thus expressed before mint-
mittee : " I do not conceive that there is a mere effective I
army, certainly not in India, and I think I may say aot
anywhere, than the Bombay army; they will go unlike's; ,
they never make an objection to embark to any place;
wherever you may require a contingent .c-morrow, you can
mead whatever number of them you please. If they are •
alone they fight well, but if they are mixed with European
troop., I think they are fully equal to any in the world." I
Again. his gallant colleague (84 G. Berkeley), on being
questioned as to what be thought of the Madras army, 'said
he thought item good indeed. What was the cipher's' of
Lord Gough with regard to the medical staff of the Indian
army ? His lordship said : " It was my fortune to serve
de-in the whole almost of the Peninsular war, end I have
served through several cum:olives in India, but in the
Panjaub campaign I do not think that at any one period
there was a wounded men without his dooley (litter). nor
wanting any comfort it was possible to give him." Then,
again, in reference to the commissariat, Lord Gough bore
this important testimony. H. said that "during the Mak-
ratta campaigo sod the Sutlej campsites. the army under my
command was never one day without its regular provisions.'
He was quite ready to admit that at length an effort in the
right direction bad been made by the organiestios of a land
tramper. oorpe, under the command of a most gallant
soldier—us who would, no doubt, justify the high repute-
time which he had theretofore obtained. There was also an
attempt about to bo made—be trusted that it would be v,
emosessfol esse—to aim a Turkish contingent, and to office r
MikaeelWn. Certainly, if due diseriminati on
lisms in this matter, the service* of
nos who hg wished thenssilves in every field
is India for the bat twenty yeses might have beep
assonsed. Bat, by Cs infelicity of t..a steps whelk
bap Majesty's governmeot had takes, they had. gam I
M rep themselves of the ureic** of the s
.ea *bow
gem woad have pointed out as the moat ardetept, Ha,
gdgl sus without the intention of coatis, 'any disparage-I,
mina upset the-Abort who had bee. mgema to ea w
spa& the wok* of organists, sad aom,mengspe they as.
Pages*. Bat and tin grist :stemma at stake de.

Mr BRIGHT said be wished to oak the noble lord at the
head of the government a question, arising out of the pro-
tocols wh;ch had been laid upon the table of the house. He
observed that in the last protocol there was a passage
which g eve the opinion of the Austrian government with
regard to the Russian proposition for pesos. The Austrian
taleicer stated that the proposition seemed to him to admit
of a pea...fatal applieation, that it admitted, at all events, of
diseussien, and contained the elements out of which Austria
would en.leavour to offer something which might lead to a
settlement of the question now at issue. He wished to ask
the note) lord whether the Austrian government had sub-
mitted any proposition since the 26th of April, which was
the date elate last protocol, and whether be would be able
to lay that proposition before the house as distinctly as the
other repositions were now before the house? He should
like also to ask whether any other proposition—sad there
was a strong rumour of one baring come from Paris—had
been retched ; and further, if they were to understand that
the negotiations were 'loftily closed ? He said this, became
he should netlike to bring forward any motion relative to
the aegniations if he thought they were not absolutely ter-
minated. (Hear, hear.)
Lard PALMERSTON said there had been no formal or
written proposal male by the Austrian government
since the period to whit: the hen. gentleman alluded.
Verbal communications had pasted between the representa-

:lives of the Austrian govornment and those of the English
and Feria-11 governments, and also between the representa-
tive, cf the french and English governments; but he was
sure the hon. gentleman ',meld feel that, considering the
state in which the relations between the three governments
were, it wou!d not be for the public interest to give a de-
tailed espl►oation with reward to them. With respect to
the gae•tion whether tb.: tegotistions were entirely broken
off, bit soccer wee similar to that which he gave the other
evening—that the elements of a conference existed at Vienna
—that there was there a Br.tieh representative, a French
representative, a representative of Turkey, a representative
of Austria, and a representative of Russia; and that if there-
fore, at any time, any ursposition wee gar.di, either by
Russia directly, or by Austria on the part of Russia, which
appeared to eflir a fair prospect of the resumption of nego-
tiations leading to a successful issue, there were the means
and elements fur resuming them.
Kr BRIGHT wished to know whether the house was

to undentaed that the tastier wm to sash a muddies that ,
say motile with regard t t those atirotiations, and t►e (vilest
discs sine of them, wosiii not be opposed by the geverameet
as prii silica' to the public service.
Lord PALMERSTON said, of coarse the boa. seatleauus
mast 13.1 t hie own dieere:init os that satdiet. If his (Lord
Palmerston's) opinion errs asked, be should es, t►at:he
Aid not think say public actvastago would BTU*, sad ►a
could imagism that eertaiu immensities might resat, hem
thu govenraeat bele% compelled la the yeses' state of
thiaire to eater isle e deiei:ed dimwits urea whet had
passed. epos proposals made sad; greposals *bleated to, sate
bestiag, is shod, the whole geld ed dimwits ociasseted
with toe relatioas between this mashy sad the other istma-
tries demented la the turiseetione.
Agreed to.
Lord J. RIISEELL (des SOON that es Thursday seat
ha should istrodase, ott behalf of her Majesty's govendoest,
two hilts relating to the essethstlom of t►e Australia*
eoloater.
Os tat molds of Lord PAIXIMION. 'event orders of
the day were Men peatimsed.

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1855.

-- ----
i....Janaw"..r
• line wale slll6°llBl tod • h th• they
smallest the change then proposed, on the ground
sanded that be should state that noses os
_...„, mat if their stray were isomers with • Queen's
of that minas* width the nouns isnia.ndod'—"aar.... he wand isat all prestige and patronage, and become Cypher,.
amuse Mows Stadion story. What was the, mit n'--
d these Thee deflated the bill, hut in 1833 the question was :Rein
rellWwed to ilea wise Came "an mot atec'ell. -.-,ak rand banes • committee, and the then Secretary to Om
Minn 1' • When hes month:lan the Isaias of Genet ni ii ass- Beard et Control circulated • number of queries to Indian
Great, ho mandond the name of on who—if pa•o_". it icedhings as to the expedients. of the charge. A vast body of
tag t and the rules of porn did not Fou'f"a,' avidosoo was collected, which would be found in the report.
be the man to fill at the present ••-- .11e admitted that then were but few great aames to be
=al Minister of War; one who was versed in the t ad amongst the witnesses, except Sir J. Malcolm,
Of military matters, and who was capable of tithing ots his views were identical with thou which
the 111111118111 411 the affairs of our ernes at th• present nu ,11., B. ran. .
y) advocated. Mr. Elphinstone
Jaaelliga. Yet this geatlesnas was unemployed. Then was' be (
else Hodgman, of whom Sir C. Napier had spoken di
4:IS, mt,4 of the project, but his authority was not so great
assthiPat of faie J. Malcolm. He now come down•to the- last
• atm and,
pn
gPtrangsrlisme einpotau"gh,c°in that committee thiso
great question was
la ebe
„tell:tic
b.*
ses There
ws u wkly. : l, s o
governmentß l er Ob
bed
di i ear al.
t• item that eat Indianil •
reale te peerreadri to take • subordinate comniud. Now,
mooted, end or that Teashe had no recent
de aridness w nth he mold avail himself. Ha admitted
aiwompleyseat a men of that kind was a national not so much ash_ t
ealsmity Is essmodaining that no um had been ma
of
the inns y, it was essenti I that he should that them were same difficulties surrouadiag the question,
pont out what me might have been lade of it, and those difficulties divided themselves into two classes—
After much attention to the subject, and gassy commuei• diffieultim of principle and difficulties of detail. Tn.
satins with military men upon the sohjeot, he had diffieeltlee of detail he would pass over, as being better
eel the slightest doubt that under proper t adapted for disunion in committee op.staire, hut there
• European force of from 20,000 to 21,000 men, terming • were two or three difficulties of principle which must be
complea, corps d'arsseo, might be despat hed from India to settled by the legislature. The fact was the objection raised
the Crimes. He was also informed by many of the highest by Lord Grenville was, that if the Queen's army were to be
authorities, that it was possible that a lava- army might be the only army serving in India, it would be necessary to make
despatched through the valley of the Euphrates. so as to the government of In.:ta • royal government. lie diu not
form • junction with troops in Georgia. No one could have shrink from that proposition, nor from expressing his
studied Indian history without knowing that a body of opinion that such a change would he highly betencial to
26,000 cavalry would he of the most essential service in such India. The legislature bad not however thought right to
a oampalien as that la which we were now elegised. The adopt that course, but for seventy years had been
Warfare in the Crimea Will in some of its phases not unlike gradually taking away from the company every vestige of
Oa Indian war. There were the same difficulties power, and leaving them at last without any function wOlO-
- transport—the same diflioulties of provisioning. He ever. But the question had already been tested, for we had
Mir B. Perry) had known cases in India is which men at this moment in India 30,000 Queen's troops acting ureter
bad tarried with them provisions sufficient for ten days. the control of the civil servants of the company. Therefore
inn ea army from India would be moat %send in the if the government stile preserved this phantom of • c on-
pleinglat state of things in the Crimea. It was too late to pony, the latter would undo the control of the army of the
Oda Manta • thing for the present campaign, as the rainy crown. Lord Cornwallis had considered the difficulty, and
hams Mil set ie. But, in time for the next campaign, men bad provided for it by suggesting that all despatches
eldniktlM despatched from the different ports of India to • should pus through the B ard of Control, and
inesaiont plan of rendezvous, whence they might proceed that the Horse Guards should have no him; what-
to the seat of war. That such a plan was perfectly feasible ever to do with the administration of the army in India.
was proved by the fact of two regiments hiving already But there was a mid more serious difficulty. The lotion
found their way from India. He (Sir B. Perry) bad a doubt service was apprehensive that if the armies were fused, par-
that it would be said by those who entertained a different liementary and aristocratic influesce would algulate the
view from himself, that it was very easy fur him to promotion, and that those officers who had not high friends
get up in his plus and state vague generalities, in England, would be passed over for those who bad. lie
sod he could not bet admit that the very nature of the sub- could assure the house that if he believed it likely that such
Int obliged him to he somewhat geseral. It would also, he would be the cam, he would not support the proposition for
united not, be said that it would not Is, sale to denude a moment. He did not fear the erection of any new
India et English troops. It was well known that objection abuse in the distribution of patronage. It was not
Mind been made by Lord Dalhousie to the withdrawal of a easy to eradicate old ones, but we were at that task
desk man excepting cavalry regiment,. The opinion which at present, and, under each circumstances, to esta•
Lord Dalhousie had upon this question might or might not blish any new abuses, would be a task of such enormous
be correct—he (Sir R. Perry) had no means of ascertaining 0 Scotty that no minister of the crown would attempt it.
Ole fact. But supposing it to • a correct view tithe matter, But they had in India the principle established which par.
the plan which he would suggest was this, that. the freshly hasent had diecivered to be the true o e—namely a mixed
raised regiments should be sent tot to India to replace those system of seniority and selection. He admitted that in
withdrawn for service in the Crimea. This, as it seemed to ludia the system of seniority had been carried too far, but
hios,would be far better than thosystem which now pavailedot recently selection had been added with the best possible
sending out raw recruit', most of whom were mere b is, effects. Soto bang the cue, he believed that the fears
to almost certain death, from unaccustomed hardships. which were eaten eined in some quarters against his project
There was another objection which might be lured, as., were perfectly chinserioaL lie had a body of evidence to
the difficulty of settling in a mixed cups d'arnife the relit• show the mixed system es it was carried on in the
tions of the officers amongst themselves. It had bees thought French navy, furnished to his by Admiral de Cha•
by some hon. members and out of doors, that • Isle order bannes, and in this country it had be en made most
had put an end to all difficulty on this quest.oo. He available in providing captains for the Baltic fleet. A third
thought, however, that such was not the effect of that difficulty was one which bad been put to him by some mill-
memorandum. It would be in the recollection of some hon. tary men—namely, how would it be p nsible to amalgamate
members that he had a few evenings since taking !ha ripper- the company's army with the Queen's, while purchase WV.
Unity of putting a question to the President of the B .ard the spat. mof promotion in the one, and seniority in the
of Coated upon this matter. From the answer of the right other. The obvious answer to this was, that the two @ya-
hoo. gentleman he had inferred that the memorandum in tents existed in the Queen's service—seniority and pur-
question, emanating from her Majesty, meant nothing more chase; but there was another answer, and that was, that if
than upon its face it purported to mean, and that its °sly the war continued, purchase would completely disappear.
effect, therefore, wog to give to Indian officers an Any one who studied the Gazette for the last few
honorary distinction all over that rank which they bore in weeks would see that, as a military fact, the
India. This was the whole and sole effect of that memo- system of purchase had already disappeared. One word
random. It was plain, therefore, that no 'amity to c em- as to the comparative effects of the two systems. He had
mud, except in Indite, was conferred upon Indian officer, read carefully all the authorities in favour of promotion be
and hence, if those officers were employed with Queen's purchase, and be found them all to have one basis, namely,
troops, they might he told, as in the time of Abercromby, that inch • system permitted the advancement of young
that they had no right to give orders. Even if the reading men to positions of command ; but the Royal Commissii n
which he put upon this memorandum were incorrect, still it declared that for this purpose the system of purchase had
fall far short of what the exigencies of the times and of the failed, seeing that the average age of major-generals in the
service demanded. The British army tt this moment Queen's service was 65 years. In India, where the much-
coosisted of about 460,000 men, with upwards of 10,000 dreaded seniority system prevailed, the average was
officers. The state required that this large army should be only 62. These, however, were questions of detail
made as efficient as any army in the world. Oor officers, He thought he had shown the house that these were facts
whether Queen's or Company's, were, es • body and upon which it was very desirable should be investigated by an
the whole, superior to then of any other nation. But in impartial tribunal. Papers bad bees showered upon them
some things these officers were not to be compared with from bath services, much information would be elicited, and
those of foreign meiotic He required in :his branch of the besides, the inquiry he proposed would be, perfectly pulls.
service, as an administrative reformer required in other mentary. Ile irk that he bad left many topics, but they
benches, that the best men should be found to fill the would afford a wide field for the speakers who were to hal-
highest posts. At the present moment there were several low him, but if they should be advocates for the East India
important military questions waiting for settlement. There Company, he begged them to remember that during the
were the questions of promotion, of recruiting, of military last 70 years, whenever a project inimical to the interests of
notation, of training, and f pay. All of these re- the company was brought forward, the most plausible and
gaited the greatest consideration from military and ingenious arguments were used to deter the house, and that
professional persona Any measures which might be wh parliament, in its wisdom, slighted these predic.
takes with refereace to these matters could only be satia lions, subsequent experience was sure to prove them
ketory if the whole army were dealt with; and i• fact, to have been perfectly valueless. He ventured to predict
anordiog to the opinion of the best military authorities that, if the how.e granted:him this committee, such evidence
3:46,1he matter, no satisfactory reformation could be would be offered as would enable parliament to add another
in these matters, unless a complete amalgamation to their important measures for toe amelioration of India.
auk Oboe of the Queen's and Company's services. It was (Cheers.) The hon. member concluded by moving the re-
aft only in a B • ' h point of view that this change was solution.
important —it was no less required for the benefit of India. Sir J. FiTzGEKALD, Colonel Durso, and Sir J. W.
He had no hesitation in affirming that in India the military /loon, opposed the motion, the last-named gentleman in a
sad civil forces did ant —to use a F....4s evorewion— speech of coneid rahle length.
" function" well ;in order to this it was necessary that NI DE D. Eva1.4,..,..a.. „..,,,,,,8,,,m..„,,.. a ...I
the army in India should be a royal army, under the modest one, and not likely to produce such alarming con-
antral, as at present, of the supreme government of look'. sequences as the hon. and learned gentleman the member
There yes also another important question upon which he fur Banton seemed to think. He believed that it was ea-
felt it his duty to touch, although it was • delicate one, for meanly inconvenient nod injurious to the public terries
he
had known much good arise from the mention of such that able, eminent, and distinguished officers should not be
things in parliament. He affirmed that there was some- liable to be employed everywhere where their cervices were
thing unsafe to the mode in which our military force in required ; and as he thought you could not have too nasty
India was constituted. A large number of officers were at I'4o officers available for the service of the government, he
oststation,, far from the control of public opinion. Nor should give his hearty support to the motion.
was this all; we had had mutinies in the army itelt—a spirit Mr. V. SMITH slid that as the office he occupied had
of disaffection bad prevailed for years. It was the part of • boon so pointedly alluded to by his hon. friend who brought
wise statesman net to shrink from grave facts like these, fosward this 'nation and other gentlemen, as if it was ea-
bat to look them fairly in the face, and, if possible, tirely resocusible for the combination of the East Indian
devise a remedy by which they might be met. He and the Queen's armies, although that subject was more
believed that tithe Indian ermy were • royal army much of connected with the department of the Secretary for War,
this disaffection would disappear in the ahegiance and he trasted he should receive the indulgence of the home
loyalty which were natural to the position of royal troops. while he made a few observations. He was not much urged
Hon. members wou.d see that he had no desire to esti' the thereto by the manner in which the motion had been sr
Company's army at the expense of the ()area's. Indeed sired. Indeed, his hon. and learned friend himself seemed
he believed that, as • whole, the latter would be entitled to rather to shrink from his own motion, and the hon. and
rank higher than the former. He needed only nnme Law- gallant gentleman, although he seconded it, said that he did
rens, Clive, Wellesley, Lord Lake, and let, but not least, not 14ok so much to the result of the motion, as to his wish
Napier, to prove this position. There were no names in to show that he was still favourable to propositions which he
the Indian army to vie with those which he had just men- had formerly made with regard to the employment of Indian
tinned. Indeed, to make the ladian what the royal force officers. But it was to the result of the motion that the
was, it should be bound u closely as possible to the mother holies must look. If he rose for the purpose of showing that
country. He would say, bind the Indian army as closely to such • committee was an improper tribunal to which to '
sis as might be, and, following the example which the refer such questions as were proposed, he felt great dint-
French in Algeria had set us with regard to their army, cult, in doing so, from the danger there might be of his
make it gradually as national in its character as possible. uttering anything which might be thought offensive either
8a far he ha I traced the benefits of the proposed change as to the Indian or the Queen's army. The real question was
regarded the state : he would now consider it in relation to whether the subject in question was one which ought to be
the soldier himself. Viewiug the matter in this light, he submitted to a committee of the House of Common,. He
desietat that the proposed °hinge would be advantageous entreated the house not to be led away by the natural
bilk MI the Queen's and the Company's men. The Queen's anxiety which everyone must feel during a state of warfare,
Seem would have opened to them not only those staff ap- to look to every means and chance of obtaining success ; and
piatisents which were so numerous in India, but also he hoped that the hones would not be influenced by such an
several civil and political posts, which were row, from the anxiety to pledge themselves to any scheme, which, for
exigencies of Indian service, often filled by military men. aught they knew, might be such as rather to endanger and
The officers of the Company would also be benefited. They militate against success than to promote it. Still it was no
wruld have the advantage of en increased field of doubt the duty of the house to see that assistance was
Military exertion, as well as the prospect of higher military brought from India or any where else from whence assist-
reward than they could at present Gilgit. In addition to arose could be obtained. That had been done to a certain
this they would have the honour of serving the Queen—an extent, and the late government had brought home officers
honour which, as everyone knew, had great influent, with who had distinguished themselves at the Cape of Good Hope
military men. He could sot help thinking that it was pee- for service in the Crimean expedition ; and be could see no
Actly ridiculous that the great advantage which would arise reason why the services of Indian officers might not be made
nom this tact alone should be lost to the state The available for the same purpose. He agreed with the hon.
hon. gentleman here read a letter from Brigadier General and gallant gentleman (Sir De L. Evans) that Indian
Mayne, and another from a native gentleman, who officers should be appointed to commands in India,
had acted as interpreter to Sir W. Gomm and Sir and the honourable gentleman (Sir J. Hogg) said that i
Charles Napier, in confirmation of his views. There on that pint he had received a favourable reply
was • question closely connected with this subject to from the late Pestilent of the Board of Control ; and he
which he would content himself with briefly adverting. It could assure the hon. gentleman that if he applied to him
was this, whether the amalgamation of the royal and (Mr. V. Smith) he should receive an equally favourable
ladies armies should be complete, or whether the Indian and courteous answer. Bat he would not say that Indian
army should be a distinct portion tithe forces of the empire. officers should be so appointed of nouns, if at the same
The latter was the view of Lord Grenville. Of courts this time there were Queen's officers eqsally distinguished,
was a rpseatioa for the consideration of military men; bulbs who might be entitled to such commands. The role should
thought that there was this objection to the plan of Lord be the appointment of the best man, whether he was an
Greaville—it would tend to make the Indian army a mere Indian or • Queen's officer. (Hsu hear.) But there was
local body, and thus render it a species of militia. Such a one thing that must not be neglected. It must not be
state of things would, he thought, degrade the dignity and supposed, that because we were engased in an ex-
lower the efficiency of the ladian troops. Of course, if the pedition to the Crimea, that we could neglect all
plan which he then advocated were approved by that boon, other parts of the empire, and especially our Indian
it would require to be gradually introduced, and the changes empire. We were at war with Russia, and we had men it
should be made with consideration and care. He did not stated in speeches and pamphlet/idealists the last half century
wish to disguise from the house that the principle of the that we ought to beware of Russian aggression in India. He
plan which he had ventured to bring forward was no new thought that there were many difficulties in the way of such
I thing. It bad been brought forward by Lord Grenville in a thin*, and that the passage of an army through the Seri-
-1813, in one of the most effective state.theata which
.„ had ever tcry of hostile tribes and the difficulties of providing atom-
hum made within the mall of parliament. many of the miseariat rendered the notion of a Russian invasion of India
ebanges foretold in that sprach have since come to pus as somewhat chimerical. But he could not say, that if you
stunt facts. Amongst other matters, Lord Grenville went stripped India of her army and denuded her of her bat
fully into the question of the amalgamation of the Indian dicer., that on might not be holding out an in-
army with that of the Queen, and gave it as his opinion ducoment to Russian aggression. That matter ought,
that stick an amalgamation ought to take place. But there therefore, not to be left out of consideration. He
was another authority yet stronger upon the point. Lord sold assure the hon. and learned gentleman and the house
Grenville was not a military man, and had never been in that be bad no prejudices on this question, and if he had
India. But he (Sir E. Perry) would seat cite the any they would be rather in favour of Indian officers, who
opinion of • man who had been in India, and who was were in a manner confined with his department and with
thOgrainted with military affairs. Lora Cornwallis, on many of his „mow associations. Re agreed that
II I ill. ~_ _ _ _ ,7011,1", to England round tha_,Salm.,_M 1794, aFFliad during • time of war it was desirable ant aecessary to lay
mum"•"(w lama" to "e "‘"aera" of the °°°- sails many points of routine and etiquette, which might be
Mitution of the Indian tinny, and to the best lards
of making it available fur the purposes of the suite. It all very well in time of paw; and that we had nothing
- to do but to select the fittest men for the
came to the knowledge of the Board of Control that Lord h seue rri°°' It wan „ay onthat ground that he
Cornwallis had considered the saute; and, upon iwe
so._ could consent to argue this question. and he would not go
Me arrival in England, Sir G. Duwrote Dudes
bin, to know whet were the details of his plan.
opinion
Hpes that Lord Coen walla nomad a mostelaborate scheme,
the same time eanmosin g his that no scheme
could bapersamentlO useital unless, ass preliminary measure, it was not in the power of the government to employ ladiesllpatbatlordCorawlliapropaesd•matekbonusobeme,
officers of the Indian army, and that that could only he
at
decided by the Governor General. The hon. and learned I
gentleman had brought forward his motion in a speech full
the whcla of our fora 'al India wenttaasy4"ed to the royal of interest, and containing much information which might
service, to be oondartod for the future on the ninonLin:
which regulated the. royal army. the
Cognarallee said, it was to be dearly nndentood that all his
Majesty's troops Lenin in ladle were to be perfectly sub-
ordinate to the ,arempany's goverment, and to resin their and
orders through the court of directors. To carry cm this not be familiar to many members of the house, and he
At
from the necessity of going over the use ground. But
there were two great gaieties. to be Considered. The flrat,
• very large question it was, was the mialgatnatioa
of the two armies. The other was OM of &m-
-oue" ei authorities, h° show how "'Um"' up hi the really inferior importance, but one to whisk much
meant time load dealt with the mutation, he would read
the opiiiiinn width bad us% gives Am. ITN. iyritatio• was owing, bat width he hoped was la of
I. (gm Lord oranvdio made bia great mwah ea being put as end to. The hon. and leaned saaticmaa led
hardly dealt saffitiently with the difficulty M the weeps
the subject, end the company promoted an shit Wain hardly
~,,i • tie hoi matte bad bass "pa as H 0 plOOlift nor II •SG r

it was entirely one-sided, and that wee the greatest danger
of all. In the event of the amalgamation el the armies
there must be a reciprocity in the employment of the
officers; bat you eoold not pat English officers into sepoy
regiments or the irregolur cavalry, for which they were un-
fitted from want of knowledge of the natives. 'I he
h; n. gentleman (Sir J. Hogg) b►d quoted the °pi-
ston of Mr. Macaulay with regard to the character
of the espoy and the sepoy regiments; but the danger of
employio3 such offic rs as ire had alinded to with the native
troops was cot an imaginary one. A remarkable cue cc-
curred in the yr.ar 1818, when an officer of Dragoon', Major
Dunce, a man of capacity, command of temper, an Oriental
scholar, and acquaigted with the natives and their habits,
wee entrusted with the commend of a native corps; and his

2- be exprtgg,

TO CORRESPONDENTS.
Avertisements intended for Expre,s,”l,,,,,k,
must be at the Mos, 10, Bouveneatreet, by Two o' --0 C
qiw
day of publication. slam

HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE
Tan MY—Morning, Mi. 5im...... Afternoon, 61.
TO-KOZZOW —orrusg, lid 10m ... Afternoon, !In,

.
was the only instance in which an officer was cut to
pieces by his own men in trying to control a mutiny.
They would have to consider in connexion with the subject
now presented to the house the unequal discipline of the
two armies, the different modes of enlistment, and various
ether mitten, which he had no hesitation in saying would
render the question of amalgamation a question of imprac-
ticability. He was surprised to hear the hon. gentleman the
member for irevonport quote from Lord Grenville in support
of his views. He (Mr. V. Smith) had referred to that re-
markable speech, and found that the hon. gentleman had
made • mistake in the interpretation he had pot upon his
r. marks. Speaking on the 9th of April the noble lord acid :
" To blend, indeed, as has sometimes been recommended,
into one indiscriminate mass the general army of the crown
and the local force of India, would be the inevitable ruin ea
the 'intim. I have no doubt of The military
patronage (tithe crown, greedy so great, would then ex.
cet d all bounds ; we should lose the inestimable advantages
of local education, knowledge, and habit*, so necessary for
the command of native troops; and the unjust partialities,
preferences, and supercessions to which the distant service
would infallibly be exposed, must soon break down its
military character; must, too, probably renew—l shudder
to pronounce it—the criminal scenes which we have
so lately witnessed, of military and public rebellion."
NAV, be thought that a stronger opinion could not pos-
sibly be expressed agair,st the amalgamation of the Queen's
army and the Indian army. (Hear, hear.) Precisely the
same argument applied to the quotation which the hon.
baronet had made from the Marquis Wellesley. And
again the same line of argument applied to what had
been said by Sir John Malcolm, Lord Cornwallis, and
others, whose remarks had been quoted. The result Of the
proposed amalgamation would be, that the Queen's army
must be inferior to that of India. The 'chime of Lord

LONDON, FRIDAY, MAY 11.

LATEST .FROM ABROAD.

ANOTHER REPULSE OF THI

RUSSIA INS.

.---0 -.-

Lord Panroure presents his con, plimests to

Editor of the Daily and has great pleutire,
transmitting the esclobed intelligence.wL ich his ft,„
day reached him from Lord Raglan.
War Department, May 11, 1b5.5.

"SEBASTOPOL, IdAy 10.

"The Russians made a sortie with a large bodyl
troops on oar right advanced trench this motaibz
but were driven back immediately.

Cornwallis bad been spoken of, but the obsetvations of

that noble lord applied to combinations which might have
taken place in the Indian army, and did not, as far ma he
(Mr. V. Smith) could me, refer to any amalgamation be-
. .

tween the two services.

As the hoe. hatonet—the member

for Honiton had r.marked, that scheme had been silenced

by the revolutions of 1796, and nothing more was said
about it until Mr. Dundu brought forward the question in
1811. When they talked of the consideration this subject had
met with from parliament, they must remember that since
the time of the distinguished persons whose names had been
mentioned, three acts of parliament had been passed in re-
ference to the Indian army, namely, in 1813, 1833, and
1853. The question had been brought before parliament,
and by that parliament settled. It was hardly fair, there-
fore, on the part of his hon. friend to go back to 1812, and
to say that that was the last time the question was seriously
considered. As an authority against amalgamation, his hon.
friend (Sir E. Perry) had passed over the committee of 1833,
when Sir Jasper Nicholls, General Scott, and other distin-
guished men gave the most positive evidence against any
measure of the sort. There was another point to which he
(Mr. V. Smith) must advert. If those armies were amal-
gamated, the whole of the patronage was to be given to the
government at home, and at the present time, when so greet
an outcry was raised against the patronage in the hands of
the Commander-in-Chief, he thought it a somewhat strange
proposition to add to this patronage 6,000 officers in the
Indian service. (No, no.) His hon. friend the member
tor Devonport bad himself proposed that the whole
of the newly-created patronage should be placed at the
disposal of the crown. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gal-
lant gentleman the member for Westminster had elated
that although sepoye could net be employed in the Crimea,
yet that Europeans in the Indian service might be so
engaged. He believed that the hon. and gallant gentle.
man was the only person of military rank who entertained
that opinion, for all other officers of whom he had heart
approved of such an arrangement of Europeans and natives
as would bring them into the same active service. In
reference to the "memorandum" so frequently alluded to,
he (Mr. V. Smith) had been called upon to explain what
was its intended effect as to social rank, and whether social
rank was the only advantage it would secure. Social rank
was a thing to be talked of—a mere act of c uttesy, and this
memorandum was intended to confer greater privileges
than that, for it would give to officers a right to that rank
which otherwise they would have only by purchase. He found
that in the Indian army there was supposed to be a higher
social rank than in the English army, for the radian officers
always returned thinks for the army when they were
drunk—(laughter)—he meant when they were toasted ; and
this in many cases created some annoyance. He ventured
to think that the memorandum went considerably farther
than a bestowal of mere social rank; for be believed that one
effect of it would be that when a man became a major-general
in the Indian army, if he went out to the Crimea he would
take rank there as a major-general, whereas, under other
circumstanas, he would be obliged to obtain a separate
commission. He would take rank also from the date of his

s' A second and similar attempt shared theft

fate.

" Nothing could be better then the mho of tit

troops who took part in the affair.

commission, and not from the date of his appointment.
Tees beteg the lesention, the memnrandum was issued by
Lord Harding., and he bad no doubt it would be found to
work exceedingly well. The hon. baronet (Sir W. Clay)
had read a letter from General Mayne on the subject of
amalgamation, but he (Mr. V. Smith) might mention on the
co:aer side the names of Colonel Sykes, Colonel Oliphant,
Sir George Pollock, and other persona of equal distinction
Now he would come to the question which was after all the
question for that Mane, namely, the appointment of a com-
mittee of inquiry. It had already been remarked that the
hon. and learned member for Devonport had experienced
some difficulty in reference to his motion, inasmuch as
wh he first recommended a commission, he was now
seeking a select committee. Although he should have
objected to a commission, he thought a commission would
have been better than a select committee. There might
have been placed on a commission a military man of expe-
rience out of the Indian or Queen's army ; but out of mem-
bers of that house it would be very difficelt indeed, if not
impossible, to form a proper tribunal. The hen. gentleman
who moved the resolution said he did not wish to have any
thing to do with details ; but details were really the only
matters into which any committee that might be appointed
could legitimately inquire. No doubt this resolution had
been moved for the sake of raising the question, in, order
that it might be discussed in that house, and not with any idea
of pressing it. That was perfectly legitimate, for it was well
that such matters should undergo diseu-sion. But if the
hon. and learned gentleman determined on piessirg it he
(Mr. V. Smith) would repeat the warning of the hon.
baroset the member for Honiton, not to trifle with the
question of the Indian army, for on the Indian army
depended not only the existence of that empire, but the
whole of the civilisation of the country—(bear, hear)—the
stability of this country in India depended upon the prone?
maintenance of the army. He could not better state that
opinion than in the words of one of the greatest men
England ever produced or India educated—the Wellington
of civil life, who in the course of a long life swerved
from his duty, and who, when at last called upon to make
a great sacrifice, did it with the same cheerful spirit that
had characterised the earlier part of his life. He alluded to
Sir Charles Metcalfe also said, " Some say that our empire
in India rests on opinion, others on main force. It, in fact,
depends on both. We could not keep the country by opinion
if we had not considerable force ; and no force that we could
pay would be sufficient, if it were not aided by the opinion
of our invincibility. Our force does not operate so much by
its actual strength as by the impression it produces, and
that impression is the opinion by which we hold India."
Now, he would ask the house net to peril, by sending it to
• committee, the existence of a great army, and through
that army the existence of a great empire. (Cheers.)
Mr. OTWAY supported the motion.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIDIORE thought there were grave
constitutional reasons against this proposed change.
Mr. DAN BY SEYMOUR said it seemed to him an in.
superable objection to the proposal of the hon. geatleman
that they could not *operate the present question from the
great political question—in whom the government of India
should reside. (Hear, hear.) The time would come when
that question must be settled ' • and when they were pre-
pared to say that the Board of Directors should no longer
exist, it would he time enough to consider the amalgamation
of the two armies. (Hear, hear.)
After some remarks from Mr. JOHN M'GREOOR,

The house divided—
For the motion
Against it
MR. LAYARD'S MOTION. . . .

" The loss of the enemy was serious:'

(BE SUBMARINE AND BRITISH TELEGRAPH)
(FROM URI CORRESPONDINT Ok. THU DAILY SIM)

PARIS, FRIDAY.

. __...i.
The Moniteur contains a letter from the Polak
General ltybincke to the Emperor, in which g
writer says:

"Poland is suffering, but looks to the %tie
aid; she sees and loves your Majesty alone; ego
vinced that the power which has been lithert
Di..ine Providence, continued in your hands, vitae
exerted by you for the right came."
The regulations as to prizes to be awarded ants
Exhibition are now published. There are to be ion
classes of rewards; namely, the gold medals, ter
silver medals, the bronze medals, and honourate
mention. His Majesty reserves authority, atm.::
bestow upon masters and workmen who may wee
to merit such distinction, special tokens of the pchL;
gratitude for the peculiar services rendered by they
to civilisation and humanity.
With regard to the department. of science see
art, it is announced that there will be four clasped
rewards for specimens of fine arts ; and that is
tion to the grand smiled., the sum of 130,0001=
has been allotted for distribution amongst the dies.
guished "laureates of art."

TXIb DALIII. tgLr.r.i.

(Hy INTERNATIONAL TELEGRAPH.,
(PROSE THE CORRESPONDENT oP THE DAILY SllsyS)
KIEL, Tut IVA
The Orion, screw line-of-battle ship, suited r
eight this morning.
The Cossack, Arrogant, Esk, Tartar, and Arm
have arrived at Farosund, with nine collienfortG
fleet.

Letters from Helsingfors, of the Stith ult., ret
that the formation of the 26 battalions of Fin'Wm
ordered by the late Czar, is now complete. Them
steam frigate Galkao, of 360 horse power, id teid!
for launching, and the \Vyborg, a scong ship of at
line, has just received engines of 430 horse powt
An order was lately issued that in fume ship' ba:
in the Imperial yards shall be fitted with the dart
It is now ordered that the exibting esiliog mei
shall be successively taken into (look and mon
engines and propellers.—Dai y Newc.

Mr. LAYARD wished to say a few words in order that
there might be no mistake as to the course of business on
Monday night. The noble lord (Palmenton) was under •
misapprehension when he stated that it was his (Mr
Lewd's) intention to force on his motion on Monday
night. Its bad no suoh intention. He understood that on
Monday night • similar motion was to be made in another
place ; and, under these circumstances, he believed it would
suit the convenience of the house better to have his motion
put off to a later day. (Hear, hear.) Hs would, therefore,
avail himself of the kind permission given him by the
noble lord • few nights ago.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE having mimed that the house
go into committee on this bill,
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE raised v. debate, which was
ultimately adjourned till Monday.
Several bills were read a second time unopposed.
CONSTITUTION FOR VICTORIA.

Lerd .1. RUSSELL snored for leave to bring ins bill to
enable her Majesty to assent to. a bill, as amended, of the
legislature of Victoria, "to etrablish a constitution in end
for the colony of Victoria."
Leave was given to bring '.n the bill.
NATIONAL GALLERY (DUBLIN.)
Mr. RORSMAN obtr.ined leave to bring in a bill to
amend en set of the l.ast session of parliament, intituled,
" An Act for the lest,Alishment of a National Gallery of
Paintings, Sculpture, and the Fine Arta, for the care of a
Public Library, c.nd the erection of a Public Museum in
Dublin."
FORMS OF PLEADING.

The ATT'ORliiiMiiiiiAL obtained leave to bring
in a bill to °matinee an net of 13 and 14 Vie. to enabl►,
the animas of the Courts of Common Law at Westmintt►= to
alttr the forma of pleading.
The home adjourned at half-past one o'clock.