The Express.
London, England, 1864-07-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P,

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, Jul.: 8.
The LoaD CHANCELLOR took him moat op tho wooloack at
o'clock.

ALLEGED PRUSSIAN ATROCITIES.
Earl RU ELL said that his noble friend (the Earl of
Shaftesbury) asked hist the other day whether he had re-
freired orgy intelligence is regard Or 400 Swedes alleged to
bare been slaughtered by the Prussian troops. Be had no
intelligence at that time, bet he bad sines mad* inquiries
and received telegrams from our ministers at Copenhagen
and Beebe, who said they had inquired into the truth of
the report which had been circulated, and it appeared there
were some lour or Sr. Swedish officers killed, but they
were in Danish uniforms, sod were widotinguishable from
the Danish troops. The account from Berlin stated that
there was • report that an Detention existed of declaring
that • certain number of Swedes engaged in the Danish
service Aoold be tried by °mart inertial. It was, however,
believed ►t Berlin that the Pressman government would not
sanction that proceeding.
VOTE OF CENSURE.

Lord MALIIESBURY rose to move the following ream
lotions :—" That this house has heard with deep concern
that the sittings of the conference recently held in London
have been brought to a close without accomplishing
the important purposes for which it was convened. That
it is the opinion of this house that while the curse pursued
by her Majesty's government has failed to maintain their
avowed policy of upholding the integrity and independence
of Denmark, it has lowered the just influence of this country
in thy councils of Europe, and thereby diminished the se-
curities for peace." He said that on a grave occasion like
the present there was but one sentiment pervading both
aides of the house ; that sentiment being that the debate
would do honour to this country and to the assembly to
which libeir lordships belonged. With this feeling he knew
that both sides of the house would deeply regret the
absence of one who illustrated their lordships'
debates by his ability, his wit, and his eloquence—(ebeen)--
and to himself personally it was a matter still more to be
regretted, inasmuch as be was there to represent his noble
friend (the Earl of Derby) in person, although he was
unworthy and unable to fill his place. He must ask of his
noble friends behind him their utmost indulgence, as it fell
to him to move the resolution which his noble frieed Would
have moved in so much better a manner ; and he trusted
that in carrying out the object which the noble earl would
have effected so much more ably. he should not, in the heat
of debate, say anything unfair to any member of her
Majesty's government, and should not trespass too long on
their indulgence by lengthy statement'. It was • further
object of regret that anything approaching a personal
matter should be brought before them, but in • few
words he must complain to the amble lord opposite of
a circumstance which bad occurred in another place. It ,
appeared that the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affeire had
alluded to a correspondence which he said was carried on by
him (the noble lord) on a former occasion. He would say
no more than this ; that if such • correspondence existed it
was hit wish, which be had already expressed, that parlia-
ment should be made acquainted with its contents—(hew,
bear)— and he trusted the noble earl opposite would produce
it to the house. He turned now to the resolutions of which
be had given notice. With regard to the fist paragraph,
be thought none of their lordships would object to it. It
must be • matter of great regret to them, first, that the
conference took place ; because all thecircumstances attend-
ing Wind led to *yenta which would probably lead to still
further and more disegresable complications. First
of all, they had lost, he was afraid, the
will had good feeling of some very ancient al
They ' bad for many years enjoyed the friendly feel-
ing of, the German powers, particularly of Austria and
Pruett With one of those powers we were convected by
a royal marriage, and when we considered the events to
which the enmities of the house was now directed, and
when We recollected that they had dissevered us from this
alliance, it must be a matter of deep regret to all their lord-
ships. (Hear, hear.) He was afraid they had to lament
in consequence of these events a great violation of public
right. They had to lament the violation of the treaty of
1852—a treaty in which both political parties in this country
took en interest and • political part. He thought that
this violation set • very bed precedent, for it might be
quoted at any time as an excuse for violence and
wrong, and he said that looking at the details
of this unfortunate business there war • feature
that ought in • certain degree to strike them with
trepidation—he meant that new power, as it were, which
had appeared on this occasion in Europe—namely, the Diet
of the German Confederation. It appeared to him that
that power had overstepped its former attributes. It had
taken upon itself • degree of authority in interfering with
an Demure treaty which it had no right to take, especially
under the circumstances of the came. (Hear, hue.) If the
Diet wen to be permitted to throw its weight against any
treaty that might be signed by Austria and Priaall, he did
not know who was to make treaties with those powers, or
with any of the German states separately, with the hops of
their being maintained and their objects carried out There
was another cause for regret when he looked at the events
which had occurred. A new principle had been brought
before the world, the principle of what was called na-
tionality, and he regretted that the noble earl opposite in
the numerous discussions which had taken place, in corr.-
spot/duos, and in the confereace, bed not put a categorical
question to such persons as unionised this principle, and
asked them for a simple and plain interpretation of what
they meant by "nationality." if by that interpretation
they meant that a people might rise against • tyrannical
sovereign, all Englishmen would understand the term. But
it would appear, sales, some other intrepretation was given,
that it meant that a nation bad a right to invade another
country, and that nationality was supposed to exist io con-
sequence of • certain majority in language or in religion.
He thought nothing could be more dangerous to the peace
of the world than such a principle u this as it
was • now defined. What, under each principles, wee
to become of the smaller powers of Europe! If they
took Switzerland, for instance, where three languages
were spoken, French, Italian. and German—it would be di-
ridedbetween those theregreat powers. What would become
of our own country ! If it WWI kooght under this principle
Ireland would be one country, Scotland a wooed, England
a thud, and Wales • fourth. (Hear, hear.) lastly,
they must regret the failure of the conference from a na-
tural' feeling that England had in seeing • very ancient
country, which had existed more than a thousand years,
whom former monarchs were our mounts, and whose
exist acs, as compared with that of its invader, Prussia, was
that of the cedar to the fig tree—to see such • country as
that 'dismembered and annihilated under circumstances

which not only made us feel regret but the greatest indig-
nation when they remembered the circumstances to which
he would allude. He regretted further that this war nom
its re-commencement had boon carried on in the same pain-
ful manner as it was before. (Hear, hear.) It was now
his duty to show that he was right in the second paragraph
of his resolution in which he laid much of the blame on her
Majesty's ministers. Before be went into the cor-
respondeoce he must anticipate what had been a
question asked, riot in that house, but which would
probithly be asked there as it had been elsewhere.
They, were asked what they would do if they succeeded to
office. That he considered a most preposterous and unfair
ques4on—preposterous because it was impossible upon a
point' of war or peace for the opposition to declare what
they would do, when they must necessarily be ignorant, of
the Means of the country to carry on a war, what allies they
might depend upon, and of various other matters without
information upon which no man would think of carrying on
a win- unless he were insane. (Hear, hear.) He alight also
ask the government a question quite as fair as theirs—what
would they have done if they had been in opposition?
(Hear, hear.) They would no doubt have attempted as soon
as they possibly could to turn the conservatives out
of office. (Laughter.) It was absurd to suppose that
the opposition could now be ready to go to war
or to advocate war, and if they were to promise
anything of the kind at present, anyone would be justified
in saying that they were incompetent to conduct the
affairs of the country. Neither he nor those by whose sup-
port he hoped to carry his resolution were at all anxious
at this moment that any government should proceed alone
to war. One thing was perfectly palpable, that no time
could be more inopportune for us to go to war than the pre-
sent. • He did not mean to say that the moment had not
paned when by risking a war we might have prevented
war. (Chows.) Of that he was perfectly convinced, and
it was not only he who said that, but he had beard it from
mumblers of persons who were good judges of the circumetanoss
to which he alluded—he bad heard it from Germans, men as
eager as any of their countrymen to obtain their objects in
Denmark, that there was a moment when, if her Majesty's
government had taken a strong tone and made a strong d►
rnonstration, war would have been averted. (Haar, hear.)
The noble earl opposite and the noble duke who sat upon
the government bench had alluded to what took place in
Italy in 1959, and drew an analogy between the correspond-
ence that took place on that occasion, and their own oor
respondence io reference to the present differences between
Denmark and Germany. The noble earl was kind enough
to give him (Lord Malmesbury) credit for using every
endeavour to maintain peace at that time. From
one so eminent such praise was exceedingly pleasing, but he
could not help remarking that at that time the noble earl
was moot those whoaccused him, tried him, condemned, and
he might say hanged him upon his policy. (Laughter.) The
noble earl and has friends then turoed the cocoa-retires outof
office upon their foreign policy, and they did so before they
had read a single one of his despatches, for the papers were
not on the table at the time. (amen) Bat he must do
the noble earl the justice of saying that, having condemned
and hanged him, he, as a conscientious man, afterwards re-
pented and cut him down. (Laughter.) There was a dif-
ference between the policy of the noble earl end that of '
Earl Derby. In the policy carried oat by the soble earl, he
had had the misfortune to have no asdriance whatever, and '
to have shown that M possessed no influence whatever over
hie allies. (Hear, hear.) That was not the case with
respect to the Italian question, because, although it was
true that Austria, with a stupidity almost unpardonable,
rushed to her own fate, and het one of the fairest provinces
of her empire, the government had influence enough to stop
France and Piedmont from advancing, and the whole quer- I
Lion, if not settled, would have been discussed in peaceful
conference but for Austria's obstinacy. (Hear, hear.) He
did not, therefore, accept the analogy. The govern-
ment
then had influence enough to prevent two
great powers rushing into war, and failed with the
tbirdt bars the noble sad bad no Andaman

'HE

ow any power whatever. (Hear, bear.) 'Ng" sot
!right then io gulag that the present govern
in upholding the independence gad in'
Ineewig, which was port of 'Denmark
so for many centuries. and Jutland, le Joeeouti-
mental and largest part of Denmark, now is Mtn pos-
session at German troops. So complete was the failure of
the noble earl's policy, that it was left to him to carry out
the painful and almost humiliating task of proposing to the
congress the dismemberment of that country whom
integrity the noble earl had always coesidered so essential
to the welfare of Europe, and which was an dear to the
people of that country. The noble earl was obliged to
prom* the division of Slam' into two parts, and was
obliged also to submit to a refuel from the triumphant Ger-
mans who have conquered the Danes. The Daum might
fairly say with the dying Mercurio, when he said to Romeo,
" Why in the Devil's name did you come between us?
I was hurt limier your arm." (Hear, bear.) It would
be his duty to show that her Majesty's government had
brought about the present state of things by their own
faults, sod what be accused them of was not having made
up their minds to any definite line of policy, not having
kept in view sea mark from which their eye ought ewer to
have been taken, the invasion of Sleewig. (Chun.) The
municipal differences in Denmark were nothing to
comparison with that which was the internatiosal
question -the one in which England had • right
to interfere, even by force, if she thought fit to
do so. The time whom the invasion might um;
and the manner in which it might be carried outs
ought to have been constantly before the noble eerie eyes,
and be and the cabinet ought to have been ready mouth*
and months before it took place with what they inlaid do
in that event, and to have acted as soon as the movement
became known, they having received complete warning of
it from all their ministers abroad. (Hear.) On Sept. It
the noble earl said that he could not interfere in Holstein,
but that if Sleawig were attacked the attitude of her
Ma-
jeety government might be altered. It the noble earl had so
chosen, that was the time for him to hare taken grouod on in-
ternational law, and to have defended Denmark. Demo&
had then an unbroken army, and if the noble earl had sent
troops and a fleet to the Baltic, Sweden would no doubt
have co-operated, and thee, with the prospect of 100.000
men defending the islands, he (Lord Malmesbury) was con-
vinced the Germans would never have crossed over. If the
noble earl had wished to follow another course, and to (le-
ap' war, why not decline it—why not say, "We cannot
help you ; you have not kept faith with the posers, sod we
esanot assist you." Übe had solopted the peace auras;
five, that was the language which the noble earl ought to
have held. (Hsu, hear.) He (Lord Maluiesbary) hoped
he should not be accused of vanity if he mad • short ex-
tract from one of his own despstchee, written in 1852 to the
Danish government, wh too he was informed by the English
minister that there were symptoms on the part of the
Amish government of an intention to slide away
from their engagements. That treaty bad been
signed only six weeks, and the British minister
thought that already he perceived symptoms of
evasion, and be (Lord Malmesbury) wrote that the treaty
having been accepted by the Danish government, it was no
ensoern of her Majesty's government whether it had or had
act received due consideration. The obligation to observe
it remained the same, and therefore if there was any failure
to carrying it out, her Majesty's government would bold
the Danish government responsible for any danger that
might result to Denmark. (Hear, hear.) the noble earl
had acted differently, he had never bees able to make tip
his mind, as might be seen from the faltering toss of his
despatches. There was one very remarkable proof of this
in • conversation which the noble earl had with the Prus-
sian minister, on the 24th January, just twelve days before
the meeting of parliament and fifteen before the invasion of
teleswig, which had been threatened three months before.
On that occasion the noble earl told Count Berostorff that
if Denmark were occupied by Promis and Austria she
would probably be misted and when the Prussian minis-
ter asked for an explanation the noble earl replied that her
Majesty's government bad Dot yet considered the matter in
Cabinet Council, and until they had done so they could not
submit their opinion to the Queen, but that, judging
from the expressions of opinion by the prebLe
and in parliament, he thought that the invasion
of Sleswig would lead to assistance being given by
England. So that at this time her Majesty's government
had not made up their minds when the invading troops
were on the move and when the invasion was certain.
Now, let him not be understood as &Lying that her Majesty's
government ought at that time to have assisted Denmark ;
t had told their lordships before that if it was in-
tended to do so, • fitting time bad been allowed to
' psis by ; but here they found that the noble earl had not
made up his mind a fortnight before the meeting of paella-
meat The whole sum and saboteur. of the noble earl's
correspondence might, in fact, be reduced to two phrases.
To Germany be said, " Mind what you are about;" and
to Denmark, " Take care what 7oa do." Beyond that the
noble lord said really 'nothing is all his volumitiona do
spatche& Whilst this correepooduce was going on, sad
°yenta were proceeding, what had become of our
allies. Russia and France—those mighty powers from
which England ought to have received saaistance f They
did nothing ; the noble earl turned to them for amistemem
but they gave none. He (Lord Malmeebnry) was not going
to defiled their conduct, because, as signatarica of the treaty
of 1852, it was their duty to have taken some steps ; he
merely dated the fact. He was afraid, however,
there wove mayor in the policy and manner of
the noble earl which helped to indispose the allies
from coming loyally forward to assist Lim. France
acted fairly towards Denteerk, for when General
Fleury went to congratulate the new King on his wrosesioe,
be distinctly told his Majesty that Truce could not assist
blip. hamar was therefore not to be blamed. (Hear.)
From England, on the contrary, both in the speech of the
noble viscount and the despatches of the noble earl, Dee-
ms& had received every encouragement to expect assist-
snot. (Hear.) Sir A. Paget, le conversation with the
Danish minister on the lioth September, spoke of Den-
merk's " chances of assistence" is certain contingencies in
'such a way as to justify the Danish minister in inferring that
V he acted in a certain way under the advice of England he
might reasonably expect the material assistance of that
tionatry. Again,Lad Wodehouse tendered his advice to Mr.
Hall respecting the armietice,teiliughini that if be rejected it
beer Majesty's government would consider itself absolved from
all reepoombility. Here were incite and suggestioes whilst
the noble earl never told the Danes that he would eat help
them, not the German powers that he would not interfere •
and he had shown that on the very eve of the invasion be;
Majesty's government had not made up their minds as to
what they should do. Bat these were DOI the only blunders
°lbw Majesty's government. There could be no doubt but
that Franc was deeply offeaded by the manner in which
the Employes proposal for a colognes was rejected. (Hoer,
hear.) The noble earl, far the mice of a flippant epigram,
in which be said that he did not me how the attendance
of Spain, Portugal, and Turkey in congress could assist
In the solution of the Sieswig-Holstein question, lost the
beet pondble chance of settling that question. He did not
anode to the Emperor personally, who wasnot the man to
be offended by such sarcoma, but the people of France
whim had elected him to the throe were offended to see
their sovereign addressed in such language. But before
that, the inference drawn by the Francis respecting the
correspond/oat about Poked, was that England left the
Emperor in the lurch ; indeed the charge was openly made
in Fiance. He (Lord 3dahnesbory) knew that It was pity-
sicinolcfl impossible for ne to assist Poland, but the ours-
epos of her Majesty's government with Fresco on
'abject left the impression on the mind
et Europe that everything proposed to be done
England was certain to end in smoke.
Well, thee, the government had not in January made up
their minds, but the German governments had made up
theirs, and they invaded Sliming, and not contented with
that, they soon afterwards invaded Jutland. He would
net describe the hardships which had beim indicted upon the
unfortunate Lanes who were not prepared for each a straggle
against overpowering armies. After many proposals a con-
forgone took place, and the plenipoteotierice met without
any buts upon which to reamed, and after much
asgotiation a peace could only have been arrived at by
• dismemberment of Denmark and by the humiliation
of thin country. (" Hear, hear," from the opposition.)
' Than he would say that the jut il3flolllloll of this country
abroad had been lowered. It would be a painful task to
show what were the opinions of foreign nations of this
country at the present time. Not only the German papers,
but also the French, had spoken of this country, not as they
had done before, in terms of hatred and melice combined
with • certain amount of fear, but en betraying their friends
and as cowards. (Cheers.) He should require no farther
argumenta to show the position in which England stood
now than the correspondence on the table and the
speeches of the noble viscount at the head
of the government, and both must make noble
lords feel as he himself felt, that this country had
been humiliated. (Hear, bear.) lo July, 1863, the noble
Premier said it wee an important matter of British polity
to maintain the independence and integrity of the Danish
monarchy, and that he was convinced that if any attempt
should be made to interfere with that independence and the
rights*, Denmark, it would not be Denmark alone with
which the German powers would have to contend. Again,
in June 27, 1864, the noble viscount, attar Denmark had
been dismembered, said the coated had been in regard to
Sleserig, and not in regard to Denmark or the safety of the
Danish capital, but he added that be did not mean
to say that if the war should assume a different
chancier, if Copenhagen should be taken by the sword,
—if there should be • destruction of property and the cap•
tare of the sovereign as • prisoner of war—he did not mean
to say that if all theme and other events should be likely to
happen the position of Denmark would not be a matter for
further consideration. (Laughter.) He thought he seed
•

_
may nothing more than ask their lordships to mistreat the
speeches of the whir viscount with those spoken by other
ponces, and be believed they would agree with hum that
the just influence of this country had been lowered. (Cheers
oc the opposition benches.)
The Lake of ARGYLL said their lordships knew before
the debate began that it would not be to define any
priociple--(chows)—end the noble earl had care-
fully evaded the discussion of all queetioos of
public) policy. (Hew, bear.) This west pure faction fight.
(Cries of "No, no." and "bear, hear.") He would not can.
plain of that, for faction fighte were perfectly fair things;
but be thought the foreign policy of the government wee
not the ground upon which they ought to fight, because it
eomprommed the position of the country. (Hear, bear.) He
thought the resolution was not so worded as to define any
grounds which showed why the government should be
censured. It professed to state that the just luflueoce of
the country bad been lowered in regard to Deoniark, but
if their lordships read it carefully, they would we that it
was so framed as to give no reason fur that. ,

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his policy w. __ -
The debate, therefore, a mere _ strength
parties. (Hear, hear.) The case of the opposition wsa
manly this, The noble earl whose absence they lies
deeply regretted that night—tlaughter on the oppeettithe
beaches, sad erns of "bear, hear^)—be could enure noble
Jodi opposite that his regrt was perfectly sincere—(rer,
hear)—foe whatever might be their party feelings, they all
respected the rigs earl and admired his great power's, and
they wished that the character of the debates in that bona
should be maintained, and therefore he deeply regretted
the abeam of the noble earl end the care erred for it.
The case of the opposition, then, for Lord Derby himself
had stated it, was. that the government were quite right is
not going to war as behalf of Denmark, bat the noble earl
had not stated it to-eight.
The Earl of MALIIESBURY.—I distinctly said that the
government were quite right in not gong to war.
Th. Duke of ARGYLL—Theo he had not misrepresented
the opinion of the noble earl. But that involved the fur-
' ther propositioo, that the boooar and interests of the
mushy did not demand that this country shook' go to war.
If that were so, bow could they divide the honour of Es -
land from those who represented the crown of England,
(Hear, hear.) But the noble earl said, " You (the genera-
' trot) have involved yourselves with various parties oo the
cootinent, and it would be better, though we should not go
to war, that we should 0003111 into your please." In October,
1863, the minister of this country at Copenhagen informed
U. Hall that this country would not go to war, bat
K. Hall said he knew • war was coming on in Ger-
easy —that he did not wish to avoid it—that
• better moment could not happen, and be should not
shrink from it, but he did not say that be should rely upon
the British government for su, bat upon the feeling
of the people of this country, W pport hich be thought had been
roused in behalf of Denmark. That was before the death
of the late king. Bat how was it that M. Hall trusted or
to the government but to the public (seiner of England
The answer was this ; he pointed out to the British minis-
ter the proceedings in the bores of parliament. He did
not wish to complain of whet warn said or done in that
house ; for on more than one rearm durum the ten years
be had had the honour of a seat on the mioisterial beech
he bed felt grateful foe the langusge used by
noble lora whe were tedimeodent of par,
and which had been of great service to the cause of freedom
in Europe. and more than could have been rendered by the
government or by the of al opposition. (Hear, hash)
Their lordships were called a cold and unimpassioned as-
sembly, bat there were subjects upon which the
of their lordships responded more immediately proceedings
of
hip of the people than those of the assembly more imme-
diately connected with them—(hear, hear)—and their lord-
ships bad an important influence dread for in foreign
countries it was oonridered that the matured conviction of
their lordships represented the feelings of the people.
(Hear, hear.) The noble earl at the bead of the image
office in Sept 1862, propord to Denmark • settlement of
the Slesmig•Holetem dispute, but in the session following
the noble earl did not complain of any particular coarse a/
actioo, but thought it would have been better to leave
things alone. The government, however, did not gra-
' tuitorly interfere, but were asked to give their amisture
to the parties concerned in the dispute, and in • debate
which took place In that brae the Earl of Derby said the
iategriey of the Drib wrathy was of vital importance
to this country. (Hear, hear.) The language of the adds
lords oo the °r eels* side of the house had been more vio-
-1 lastly in favour of Denmark than that of the government and
yet those were the noble lords who now told their lordships
that the government, and the government alone, had bold
out hopes of assistance to Denmark, and that the govern-
ment were to blame for having placed this country in •
position of humiliation because they bad sot rendered
assistance to Denmark, or prepared to take steps for the pur-
pose of aseurieg the independence of the Danish monarchy
which was of vital importance to this country. (Hear, herj
It war his firm conviction that the Danish government
the Danish people—he did not blame them for it—had been
tiring on the speculation of • change of government in this
country. They had, he believed, expected to see a vote if
want of confidence, on the ground that the government had
net assisted Denmark, instead of which they found them
entailed because they had spoken on her behalf. Denmark
had, in fact, been betrayed, sot by the government, but by
the language of the noble lords opposite. (Hear, hear.)
He wished to say one word on the contrast which had bees
drawn between the position of France and that of England.
It bad been said in another place that the position=
Lad wasbumiliatiog, and the conduct of France
far, upright, and open. The two countries were so signs-
lades of the same treaty, sod were bound by precisely the
same obligations. (Hera, hear.) It was his firm conviction
that Ragland had so selfish or material interest in this
question ; and he denied the proposition of Lord Derby that
the vitalist/rests of this country were ormarned. No mere
bee of that house sympatbuied more deeply with the
Danes than he did. He thought that France had •
material interest in preventing the extension of the Ger-
manic Confederation into the waters of the Baltic ; but r
to England's dreading Germany as • naval power, the very
notion was ludicrous. He ever with Lord Ellenborougb,
whose absence he moth regretted, that • German fleet
would be no source of strength to °awry • and eves if
the case were otherwise • German fleet would be quite se
likely to be friendly to England as a Danish one. (Hear,
hear.) England recoiled from • war with Germany to be
carried oo by her done ; while Frame recoiled from such •
war though it was to be carried oo in slitter with England,
one of the greatest powers of the earth. (Hear, hear.) The
contrast which hail been drawn between France end Eng-
land was simply ridiculous, and was founded on the grommet
misrepresentation, of the relative position of the two omen-
tries. The noble earl said that France at ones declared to
Denmark, thro b General Fleury, that she could not give
her any materiel aid ; but if be had referred to page 443
of the blse book be would have found that the French
government denied that. (Hear, hoar.) He confessed he
bad very great difficulty in following the noble earL He
could not detect • trace of an argameat throughout his speech;
he did not know what he wee at. (Laughter.) At one
moment he seemed to my that the government interfered
frattrously, in opposition to the expressed opinion of his
chief (Lord Derby) that they were perfectly justified fa in-
terfering ; at another moment he mid that they bad held
out hopes to the Danes and threats to Germany. It was
perfectly true, he would remark, that they held oat threats
to Germany ; but surely they was justified in doing that
when similar intimations were made by France, and when
also their threats were based on the expectation of the ma-
terial assistance of France, The noble earl referred to a time
when, as he said, they ought to have adopted • decided
policy and very strong leaguers, that tune being the period
when the German powers were about to oross the Rider.
Now, the inertia of Sleswig tooleoe in the month of
February, Mae bard feat peered and the Baltic wee en-
tirely inaccessible to our ships, eecoooddd if England had then
gone to war with Germany alone, she would have had to
meet with her five-and-twenty, thirty, or forty thousand
men • face of at least 200,000 Germans, who could have
been collected in n week or tee days. It must be remem-
bered that the movement on the part of Germany was not
confined to K. de Bismarck or Id. de Richter& but • fasw
tad feeling pervaded the whole German population. To
commence war ardor such decametres' would have been,

to use the Logone at • sable load who woe very likely to
be • colleague of the noble earl, " a policy of Mouldy."
(Hear, bear.) He did not deny that there were • great
somber of persons in this coantry who felt bitterly disap-
pointed that lag Land had sot gobs to war for the sake of
Denmark. He had mud respect for that Icahn, brit be
wished the English people to be satisfied that the govern-
ment bad refereed from going to war oat merely on account
of the difficulties and deniers of war, but from other sad
higher considerations connected with the peace of Europe

and the ditSculties in the way of eufarciej justice. Whit
did " going to war for Denmark ^ mean ? Some said it
meant going to war in rapport of the treaty of 1852. It
was not we merely who had abandoned that treaty, the
Danes themselves had done so. (" Oh oh., That treaty
was one of recognition, not al guarantee ; it wee a treaty of
recognition of the pkreonal Intim between the King of
Denmark and the crows of the two duchies. The het
' thing the Danes said when they altered the conference wee
that they would not be satisfied with the personal union, and
bethought they were perfectly right. So lass as Denmark was
governed by a despotism this personal union was a real
union ; the powers of the three states were united in the
King ; but, in 1837, when liberal institutions were adopted,
the case became altered. The two populations were them
brought into collision, and jealousies of race were excited.
In a book written, not by a Gerinae, but by • member of
the Danish legation, IL Coach, it was stated that the local
institutions of what were called the Sleswig•Holsteiners
were hostile to a personal union between the duchies
and the kingdom. The question wee not one
merely of languages and nationalities. In 1846
letters patent were issued by the Klag of Dearnark with
reference to the question of suocemion, and they were
subsequently ratified by the treaty of 1862. Let their lord-
&hips observe the terms in which the King of Imemark thee
referred to the duchy of Sleswig. He mid :—" More parti-
cularly we hereby saran our faithful subjects in the duchy
of kilnwig that we do not intend by these letters patent in
anyway to trespass upon the autonomy of theduchy, such es
it hitherto beep recognised by us. nor to make any alte-
ration in those other relations which are at present cou-
nseled with Holstein. We, on the oontrary, hereby resew
our amitrance that we will for the future, as hitherto for
the past, protect our duchy of Sleswig in the
enjoyment of the rights which belong to it
as an inseparable but yet an independent part of
our monarchy. Such was the testimony of the Danish
King himself, that the duchy of Sleswig wee an indepen-
dent part of the Danish territory. If they went to war
for Denmark, they would go to war to force Sleswig to be- I
come incorporated with the Danish monarchy, and that was
not an object for which Eoglaod ought to go to war.
Nothing which he bad mid was intended to bear hard
against Denmark or the Danish people. He believed that
there was not a single German pink= in their lordships'
house. (Hear.) No doubt grave errors had bees committed
by Denmark, but those errors might have been corrected
without violence and bloodshed. (Hear, hear.) Their lord-
ships mast especially modems the conduct of the
Frustums government, which begaa and had carried au this

I I
2

iaciificing their own
stionsl feeling of
helpless peopl►
position of this
that thee lisa

. this crisis for
the eettlimen swig - dispute, and that it
the war should take a new direction, the present govern-
ment, or those who might moored them, would be free to
deal with that new conjuncture as they might think fit. He
would go farther and say that this was precisely the language
held not el by the English government but also by Femme.
(Hear, hear. He was surprised that this milk and water
and doubtfu monition, involving no principle and no po-
bay—lhear)—and not condemning the government on any
specific rounds, should have found • place in the journals
of the House of Commons. Whatever might be
the remit of the vote on the present occa-
sion, the government were not ashamed of any-
thing they bad said or doom (Hear, bear.) He did
net regret that they bad interfered on this Question be-
cause it was their bounden duty to do so. lie did not re-
=tat they advised Denmark to fulfil all her promiesi to
ray, or that they intimated to the German powers the
danger which might arise if France and England should bs
compelled to take up arms against their aggression. He did
bet regret that they endeavoured to rally Frames to our
support, because his (variation was that if she had joined,
the present war would not have been waged. Neither did
be regret the invitation to the great powers to attend a
conference in London, nor, the ceefersuce having failed,
their refusing to plunge England into war—(hear, hear)—
sad above all he did not regret that they bad resisted that
temptation to which the opposition were now yielding—the
temptation of identifyieg their own personal sympathies and
political objecte with the honour and the interest' of the
canotry. (Cheers.)

Lord BROUGHAM said he would not enter iota the
detail's)! this question after they hail been so ably handled
by his noble friends on both sides of the house. What was
the state of things they were called open to contemplate
and make up their mine about? The manure of the Danes
and the pillage of the Danish territories. (Hear, hear.)
We should have indeed been humbled, and be would even
say, disgraced if we had not made up our minds and im-
proved our feelings strongly on such • subject. Bat it was
no humiliation or disgrace not to he able to rub into
war single-handed spinet two-thirds of Europe for the
sake of Denmark. (Hear, bear.) If they had
gone to war the set might well have been
stigmatised u one of inanity. lie had gone through the
despetelles, sod his deliberate and clear °Polon was that
there was not a vestige of threat by his sob). friend (Earl
Ithasell) in the whole course of the uptiations. join red
r,
hear.) He felt perfectly coovieeed that if Prance bad d
with us in determining that the Germans should not enter
Denmark, that combination would at one have stopped the
Germane and we should never have heard of the present
deplorabie °Deflect. ( Hear, hear. )
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to move, as en
amendment to the motion of the noble earl (Malmesbury),
to omit all the words after the word " convened," for the
purpose of inserting the following words :—" That this house
regrets that Denmark was allowed to expect keen the English
goveromeot material aid is mpport of the object. of thetrany
of May 1852." He was perry that on the present occasion
he could Dot conscientiously support his noble friend the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, because he entirele
concurred in the first paragraph of the motion before thaw
lanishipa He was astonished to bear the amble duke
(Argyll) say that the present discussion might, in Irish par-
lance, be called • faction fight. They had been invited by
the government to examine the papers and give a deliberate
opinion upon them. He had done so, and he felt bound to
say he thought these affairs had been greatly mismanaged—
(hear, hear) —sod that it was owing to such mismanagement
Mat there had been a war in Denmark, and she was almost
swept off the political map altogether. He could pot,
, however, agree with the whole terms of the motion of the
arable earl, for he did not believe the 1/1(1114111C0 of this
country was one jot lowered in the eyes of Europe.
(Cheers.) The infiumure of England depended upon the
power of the country, and never did that power
stand higher than it did at the present moment.
The mistake was in the isolation of this country at • time
when action was required and might have been taken in
concert with France. He was astonished to hear the terms
in which the noble duke had spoken of the treaty of 1852,
be having been one of the royal commissioners when no less
than three paragraphs of the speech from the throne re-
ferred to that treaty and the cabinet having relied upon it
over and over agate is asking the co-operatioe of the other
powers in the defence of Denmark. (Hear, hear.)
The Duke of ARGYLL—I said the flares had given it
up themselvee.
The Marquis of CLANBICABDE did not deny that, or
that it was now all torn to shreds, its object being to pre-
serve the independence sad lategrity of Denmark. It had
been announced by the government that with au Austrian
and Prussian fleet before Copenhagen their daterneation
not to interfere might be recoesidered ; but surely if that
contingency should occur the British government would be
less inclined than now. The objects of war were now
, and it had ceased to be spoken of. But if they went
they found a period in which the eireurestaneee were very
different. The noble earl opposite had said truly, that if this
country had shown itself at an early period prepared to
incur the risk of war war would have been avoided alto-
gether. He quite mixed with that, but he thought the
government nest never to have made a demonstration if
they were not fully prepared and determined to follow it
up. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to read the
papers without peeing that the government were at one
time inclined for war ; and not only was the cabinet divided
upon the subject, but the noble earl himself was at different
limes in • very different disposition with regard to the
question. There was no doubt the Danes had been led to
suppose that Erigland would take up arms on her behalf.
By the smendmeat he was about to propose be did not mean
to imply that the noble earl had ie any despatch, or in any
announcement in that house, or elsewhere, or by his riper
meditative' abroad, given • distinct procaine or pledge that
this country would support Denmark don. If a pledge had
been given be had not the shadow of a doubt that the govern-
moot would bare adhered to it to the letter. But the con-
duct of the ministry bad been each as to lead thoDases to ex.
pect annum, and to being them into their present pitiable
000ditiou. (Hear.) He noun her Majesty's government of
baring misled Denmark. If they had mid they would not go
to war, Denmark would in the first instance have gone to
Berlin—and did any one suppose that the Prussian govern-
ment would not haveacented the line of the Sehlei"—and
the monarchy would have been saved. It was In these on-
victim. he had framed his amendment.
The Earl of CLARENDON—I should not have at-
tempted any vindication of the conduct of her Ma-
jesty's government in the recent negotiations—a task
which can be so much more ably performed by my noble
friend the for Foreign Affairs. if I had oot mud(
shared his respond • ity during the course of these nego-
tiations. I had formed nay opinioa of the Nonni-Holstein
question before I become • member of the cabinet, and I
wish to express my opinion exactly as I should have done
did I sit ea the benches below beside my noble friend who
has jest eat down. I shall not quote from the bine books,
because I presume that your lordships are familiar with
their contents, but at once proceed to may that in my opt-
nioe in the outset of these affairs, and when coming events
were casting their Ishadows before them, her Majesty's
government acted with • fall appreeistioa of the gravity
which those events might assume. I pass over the remon-
strances made to the two German powers, and the more
friendly one. which were made to the neutral one ; all of
which, however, I think, showed an honest endeavour to
prevent war if pesible ; and we should have been successful
too if we had met any corresponding support or desire for
conciliation on either side. But es time went on it only
strengthened the pressure of public opinion is Germany ;
and her Majesty's government having exhausted all he
efforts with the contending parties, applied at last in
January last to Rossi* and Freon who were more into.
rested than ourselves in maintaining • treaty which the two
ether continental powers had violated. Your lordship
know that that appeal was refused. In Jemmy Mat,
therefore, government was placed in • position of extra- I
ordinary difficulty, not alone in having to deal, but in I
having to decide how to deal, with a question whiA, more
than any other in the modern history of Europe, has been
complicated by the ramified relations existing between
Denmark and the duchies, and in the duchies between
themselves ; these complications being brought to • climax
by the sudden death of the late Kin of Denmark, end the
early extra his mecomer. Bat her Majoity's government
fond no response from Rune or Frame. Thee. powen
manifested 'some concern, but did not think that the
treaty was one which they were justified is making any
surifios for. They aid in fact, that Denmark wee oat aa
idea to be fought for. We had to choose between preserv-
ing a stoical indifference, folding our arms and witnessing
another partition of Poland, or doing that which my noble
friend quarrels with us for not having don—declared that
if the German powers advanced beyond the Eider it would
be war with Raglan. My ante friend said that that would
not be war, but • very small demonstration. My opiates is
that no course more rash or more likely to lead to • great war
could have been devised ; because. my lord.. you could not
have used such a threat as that without being prepared to
act op it. It we had sent sight iron-clads and 30,000 troops
to ice-clad Denmark it would have stimulated the
I dream of German unity, and it would have become a I
point of honour with Austria and Prussia to bring the whole
armed strewth of Germany into the quarteL Our assist-
sue would have protracted the quarrel, and
we should have been at war with the whole of Germany.
All those who think the time had arrived for going to
forget that it might have caused • revolution in Hungary
and is Venetia, an in other parts of the continent ; and
England would have been the country to set fire to the
combustibles now scattered about Europe. (Hear, hear.)
We should, however, have engaged in this labour single.
handed, for France would have been looking on, and waiting
to take part on one side or the other. I have not the
least doubt that 30,000 troops could have been
sent to an particular part of the continent of
Denmark ; but could they have dislodged 100,000
troops which Germany would have sent to oppose them—
would they have produced a different feeling in Germany in
respect of the duchies, and would they have altered the
intentions of the two German powers ID respect of the
treaty ? I suppose there must have been some limit to the
occupation of Denmark 14 our troops ? It seems, therefor*,
to me, that those who say we might to have gone to war,

•
',XPRESS, SATURDAY E JULY 9
• f
• ll, Arent, I selfish motives.
• Was • of porno& enable •• • • the right. of their
•"41.1 be • • tell • • that m„.. • placed Itself at t
f -"7"1 • • t, about. natical 77"' .• • German people, am
t•to •.. 'MUM of • • • • he bad • god tlknotth of . ith blood. No greater
th..r tbm A , •A f rev by any (oven:m.ol4A Mil
ace and some' or war, end • °rotor. to •• the-rem- won earoortly • te the Pressen people whether
iron satisfactory to all it was so drawn as to Mewess only would allow their government to go on sacrificing tbeii
o things, that the government bad failed to maintain the liberties on the pretence of heading the netionel feet
!speedos°. of Denmark, and that the just influence of Germany to a amide spinet a week end helpless p
is country had bees lowered. He monkd sot ask the **hie JO wished to say a word upon the present position a
rl what his policy would be, but basould ask him what ammtry. All they lied etenht to sty was that the
e policy would have berm if his party bad been in dike. Dot thought right to commit Eoglacd to war at this cri
re debate, therefore, wee a more trial of the strength of Unsettlement of the Sloswis.llolstein dispute, and t