The Express.
London, England, 1863-06-30 00:00:00

THE HUSH CHURCH.

Coon the motion for going into committee of supply, the
adjourned debate on the bon. member for Liskeard's motion
with respect to the Irish church wee resumed by
Mr. O. DUFF, who thought the country owed a debt of
gratitude to the hon. member for Liskeard for bringieg
this question nutter their consideration at the present time.
The policy of the government with respect to the Irish
church was the more monstrous sad intolerable because
during the last thirty years we had been spying out the
weak places in other nations. Like the Americans of
the once United States we had been boasting of the par-
faction of our institutions, and forgetting this great
wrong, which might our day be to us, if we were not wise
in time, what slavery had been to the Americans. He (Mr.
Grant Duff) thought the cabs was one for which only cue
remedy was fitted, and that wasthe remedy which Cato
proposed for Certhege. (" Oh, oh," and cheers.) He would
have the whole of the property of the Irish church applied
for the benefit exclusively of Ireland ; but while it wee the
interest of the state that the people should be
moral and religion., it was not its interest that
they should be taught this or that particular doctrine.
Let the legislature do the righteous act for which be con-
tended and it would have gone a long way towards
as psestig
the Irish question. Ireland would then soon be
' and as loyal as Scotland, and they would have done more to
increase the legitimate influence of England among the
countries of Europe than would be done by twenty victories
over a foreign foe. (Cheers.)

Yr. P. DA Wf3ON deeply regretted that the attention of
the house had been so much taken up recently with pole-
mical discussioes which tended to bnng the very name of
their holy religion into disfavour. (Hear, bear.) It was
impossible to deny that there were monodies connected with
the different religious eodowmeata in Ireland ; but they
were all so indissolubly bound together that if the govern.
meet touched one the rest would fall, and in that fall would
be involved the whole religion of the land. He was, there-
fors, equally opposed to the propositions of thebon.memben
for Swansea, Peterborough, and Montrose.
Sir R. PEEL, after some jocular remarks in reference to
Mr. Osborne, said his boo. friend spoke of the diminution
of the members of the protestant faith, which he said was
dying out in Ireland. .But the fact was an increase of four
soda half per cent. amongst the protestant', as compared
with the Roman catholic. In 1834 there were 22 bishop,
in Ireland who received 150,0001. But by the action of Lord
Stanley 'sgovernment there were 10 bishoprics suppressed, and
as he rid the income of the bishops was now 57,0001. a-year.
In Ireland Were were 691,000 ophoopaliens, while there
wee only church accommodation for 272,437. The hoe.
gentleman contended that the Irish clergy were too highly
paid, and he drew a comparison between the clergy in Eng-
land and Ireland and between their respective congregations.
He stated that the average English parish contained 3,612
protestant", whereas the average Irish parish contained only
325. The boo. gentleman, however, in taking the Eoglish
branch of the subject, included protestant' of all denomina-
tions—(hear, hear)—of whom disinters were more
than one-third? What was the fact? In Eng.
land there were 10,620 parishes, and the average num-
ber of parishioners of the established church in each was
589—while in Ireland the number was '3l. (Hear, hear.)
But, said the hon. gentleman, the Irish clergy were over
The sum distributed amongst the working clergy io
Ireland was 320,0001. a year—a sum not equal to the cost
of our armour-plated vessel. In Scotland, where the volun-
tary system prevailed, the clergy were paid at a much higher
rata ; while the revenues of the church of England exceeded
4,000,0001., the number of worshippers being nine or ten
millions. The English and the Irish branches of the united
church could cot be separated. If the house determined
to deal with the endowments of the one, they should
deal with those of the other also. (Herr, bee".)
It was very desirable to obtain information on the subject of
the Irish church from those who from their positions were
able to afford it, and he would therefore submit to the
house the opinion of a chief authority of the Roman catholic
church in Ireland, Archbishop Cullen. In May last Arch-
bishop Cullen published a letter addressed to his clergy, In
which be stated that the income of the established church in
Ireland was ten times as large in proportion as the income
allowed for the maintenance of the clergy in any pit
of the continent of Europe. He added that
Russell and Lord Carlisle had denounced the m-
istime.) of that church, and naked, ' How can we
enemas to ourselves the existence of an establishment
which proclaims the Bible end nothing but the Bible es ite
rule of faith, and gives to every one the right to think and
act for himself in religious matter?" (Cheers.) Why those
were precisely the grounds on which they stood by the
established church. (Renewed cheering.) He (Sir R. Peel)
knew no stronger answer that could be given to Dr. Cullen
than the words used by the late F'rinoe Consort on
that very subject. He said—" Not that we cannot
reconcile ourselves to the existence of • church
which had the Bible and nothing but the Bible
se its rule of faith," but he said, " I have no fair of the
church's safety and ultimate welfare, so long as she bolds
fast to what our ancestors gained foe m at the Reformation
—the Gospel, and the unfettered right to it. use." (Cheers.)
He (Sir R. Peel) would confidently set the opinion of the
late Prince Consort against that of Dr. Cullen. But Dr.
Cullen said that the revenues of the established church in
Ireland were ten times as large in proportion as the rams
allowed for the maintenance of the clergy in any part of the
continent. Directly after reading that statement he (Sir R.
Peel) sent to Naples to ascartian which was founded in fact,
and the result was most remarkable. The population of the
Neapolitan States was 7.000,000, and to watch over the
spiritual welfare of those levee millions there were 30 arch-
lAhopeHhear, hear)—and 77 bishops. There were 1,020
establishments for run, cordoning 13,611 monks, and eke
276 convents, and in feet he found by the authentic hi-
formation which he received from the government that the
church in the Neapolitan States had actually in its service
in 1860, 70,000 individuals. (Hear, hear.) And yet
Dr. Cullen stated that the church of Ireland pos-
sessed ten times the revenue of any church on the continent.
How was it at Rome itself ? The state of things there
was still more remarkable. In the year 1840, for be had
not been able to obtain later information, the population of
Alm* amounted to 153,000 ; the number of ecclesiastics
was s,273—that is, one out of every 29 of the population ;
and there were 1,824 establishments for monks, and 612
convents. (Hear, bear.) There was one other subject to
which, with the permission of the house, be would allude.
The hon. gentleman had alluded to the fact that
he (Sir R. Peel) bad attended a meeting in London with
reference to the church in Ireland. He trusted he should
always be prepared frankly and fairly to give explanations
with reference to his conduct, politically and personally,
when they were legitimately called for. He had cossetted
his noble friend at the head of the government as to;whethwr
he thought he had done wrong in attending the meeting in
question, and the opinion of his noble friend was that he
had not. (Hear, hear) He went to the meeting, not, as
had been stated, for the purpose of aiding to make
proselytes, but solely to listen to the statements made.
When he saw in the requisition the names of the primates
of England and of Ireland, and of one of the most
' eminent and distinguished members of the house, one who
certainly would
of being bigotted or intoleraat—he alluded to the hoo.Ond
learned member for Belfast—thou, heart—he thought there
could be no poesible harm in attending • meeting at which
snch men were to take • part. What be (Sir It. Peel)
stated on that occasion he was prepared to stand by.
(Cheers.) It had reference roue particularly to the working
I clergy of Ireland, and what he said must be acknowledged to
I be the fact by all who had • knowledge of what was
passing in Ireland. He stated that while many of the
clergy had not rope for their abilities yet there were
amongst them many shining lights, doing the missionary
work out of which churches grew ; and this would be ad-
mitted by all who were coovertant with the exertion,' of
i the Irish clergy. For his part he would infinitely prefer to
sit below the gangway, and advocate what he believed to be
the true internee of the country, than, for the sake of
sitting on the treasury bench, abrogate one iota of that
legitimate independence which every man in this country is
, free to exercise, and which their parliamentary system was
intended to interfere with. (Cheers.) He would
not allude further to the subject than to say that he was sure
the feeling of the house would be with him when he ex-
pressed his conviction that doing that which he thought for
the benefit of the country with which he was politically con-
mired, could not in any way Ue construed into an offence
against the government or the people. (Bear.) In his
judgment the revenues of the Irish breath of the united
church were not more than sufficient ; the clergy of that
church wen deserving of the lumina at their disposal, and
he therefore hoped the hour would adopt the view of the
government, and negative the motion. It was impossible
upon public grounds—riot to speak of the time at which it
was brought forward—to assent to it. The hon. member
proposed to deal with • subject the magnitude of which
he had not sufficiently contemplated. The tender sapling
might be transplanted, and grow in the *oil to which
it was removed. but to upheave the ramifications
of the oak, to lop its fair pmportioos end sunder its giant
limbs, was • work which the skill and ingenuity of man
could Dot successful]) accomplish. Se it was with the
established church is Instead. It was act the growth of

yeelindity ; it wee setalikked by the piety sad by the m-
ortices el our emessiors ; it wee semetimed by Parliament
and by the coronation oath of the Sovereign—C. No sad
the slit had been accepted and confirmed by generation
altar oration • and therefore it preeseted a subject the
msguh of which did not appear to have been mown-
plated by the houourable member. He warned the
house, that as attack upon the church in Ire-
Lod would only be a prelioneary to an attack
upon t
lie he church eit
.tabylisshbd.ifiluitat" divide
revenues of the church of Ireland amongst all dames of
her Majesty's Inch subjects on ;13 immediately to be fol-
lowed lap by a motion for the alienation and eseularkatioe
of the church establishment of England. (Hear, hear.)
Hs would go seen further end my that they ought also
to abolish all church endowments SOll to Adopt the voluntary
system, which might work well in America, but which he
did not wish to see replaos the system which bad endured
in this country for so many generations. Bore he wee
that if this question wee to be agitated again, it wee time
far them frankly to avow their opinions and to choose
their party for the struggle. (Loud cheers, and counter-
cheers.) la that ease ha, for one. should be found—acting,
moreover, on the advice of his noble friend at the head of
her Majesty's goverament—(ebeers, sad coasterebeere)—
he should be found in the rinks of those who sat opposite,
lumped to the defence of that principle which bad lasted for
two centuries ; and God grant that it might long continue
to be a centre of loyalty to the mown, sad a bulwark of
our civil and religious liberties. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. Henn and Mr. Hainsear rose together, and both
were loudly called for, but eventually the Smoker decided
is tamer of

Mr. HENNESSY, who said that the right hoe. baronet
had just made • statement which would attract great
attention in Indeed, and which ought to be of some interest
to the house. The right bon. gentleman said that before
attending a roast meeting he had consulted the noble lord
on the subject.
Sir R. PEEL —I did not my that. What I said was, that
when I saw that my attendance bad called forth remarks,
I 'eked the noble lord if be thought I had done wrong, and
he said, "Certain)y not." (Hem.)
Mr. HENNESSY presumed, then, that the noble lord
bad given the right bon. hareem" absolution. (Hear, harm)
He might, at any sate, fairly assume that the Debi', brdseed
the government were responsible for the conduct of the
Chief Secretary for Ireland. It might be asked why it wee
that war should be springing up again between the two
great religious bodies in Ireland. Some light would 'op
thrown on that matter by the proceedings of the West
Conraught Missionary Society, the meeting of which bed
been attended by the right hon. gentleman. It was at that
meeting stated by the chairman, Mr. J. C. Cokjuhoun,
the.: the object of the mission as to stir up strife in every
parish in the west of Ireland. lie believed, however,
that the mission was a loomed one, for the
censorreport had ktesely been published, and it
had struck • blow at the society from which
it bad not yet recovered. The Bishop of Roches-
ter bad stated that 30,000 convert" had been made
in West Connaught; and it was asserted on anonymous
authority that Galway had positively become • protestant
county. But • work published by the secretary et the
society, under the title of "Good News from Ireland
(from which the hon. member read copious extracts),
showed that these statements were unfounded ;
for it was full of complaint, respecting empty
churches, and schools that were falling to pieces.
He had never joined in any attack upon the church of Eng-
land, sod be rejoiced to say that on one occasion, when the
Speaker gave a casting vote slimiest the abolition
of the Church Rate Bill, one Roman catholic
• member did not vote, and that was the hon.
gentleman who was then addressing the house.
At the meeting which had been alluded to it was said that
the converts might be counted by tens of thousands, arid
Dr. Wordsworth, in his Irish !demon, spoke of 30,000 con-
verts in West Connaught. Now, what was West Con-
naught? It comprised the western part of the counties of
Galway and Mayo, and pert of the diocese of the Bebop of
Teem. He found that the diocese in 1834 metaised 22,765
protegee* and in 1861 they had fallen off to 17,156, show-
ing • deduction of 25 per cent. That was to say,
that while the decrease in the whole of Ireland had
been 19 per cent., the decrease of protestant'
in this particular diocese had been 25 per cent.
The fact was that every year the protestant population of
that district was declining. The hon. member then read •
long extract from the Church Review, commenting with
great severity on the conduct of the church missionaries,
and concluded by deeiguating its proceedings as • fighting
factions followed by • shriek for money.
Sir H. CAIRNS replied et some length to the vv.
manta adduced by Me Osborne. To the objection of that
hon. member, that the revenues of the established church io
Ireland were excemies in point of amount, having regard to
the duty which her ministers were called on to perform,
the hon. and leaned gentleman said that the set interne
was not so much by 78,000 L a year as the amounts laid down
in the seals published by Mr. Serjeaet Sheet. Without
making any allowance for curates, the avenge receipts of
each incumbent was 2101., whilst the sphere of duty was 20
square miles as compared with 5 miles in England. Was
re-
gard to the statement that the Irish protestant clergy had in
flocks, returns showed that there was an average of 1,590
epboOpalians in the town parishes of Ireland, and 376 in the
rural parishes, as against 387 in England and 248 in Wales.
As to the oases of noo-residence mentioned by the boo.
member, having examined the facts be was prepared to
state that they were attributable to the circumstance that
there was no glebe in the particular parishes referred to.
He admitted that there were inequalities to be remedied
and improvements effected ; it was not, however, by means
of a motion such as this, but rather through the action of
the heads of the church and the Ecclesiastical Commission,
that that was to be accomplished.
Sir G. GREY was unwilling to let the debate close with-
out answering the appeal which bad been made to the go-
vernment to state explicitly the course they would take
with regard to the motion before the house. He confessed
that be could not feel much enthusiasm for an ecclesiastical
establishment founded for the benefit of • small minority,
while no provision was made for the clergy of the great
bulk of the people. (Cheers.) At the same time he
could not consent to the subvention of the Irish church,
and on that ground he should give the motion his unqualified
opposition. He must say that be did not think that the
hon. gentleman the member for Liskeard bad treated the
house quite fairly. The hoe. member for Swamis had given
notice of a motion reviving the old A • non Clause ;
but the hon.member for Liskeard would not go that length,
subsequent experience having apparently cooeincod him
that it was wrong in principle or else impracticable. The
object of the hon. member for Elgin was to abolish the
church in Ireland and to sweep away the whole establish-
ment These were the wild notions they were
asked to eotertain and to refer to • committee
up stairs, without any guide whatever to inform
them of the intentions of the house. The hon. member
for Tipperary had distinctly put the same construction
upon the speech of the honourable member for Liskeard,
for be had said the Roman catholic* were determined
to be placed upon an equality in Ireland. The motion
before the house was ambiguous in terms, but bad been
supported upon grounds directed to the total abolition of
the church of Ireland. Whatever might have been the
wisdom of statesmen in not making provision for the ma-
jority of the people, it was impossible now to get over that
fact, end it could not be got rid of without inter-
fering with the strong feelings of the people in
both countries. (Hear, hear.) He regretted that the pro-
position of Mr. Pitt was not acted upon when the incorpora-
tion of the two countries was carried out. At this day
there were two great obstructions to it ; one the feeling
which pervaded the people of this country, which would
prevent any government from proposing it to par-
liament and the fact that Roman catholic' bad repudiated
any such arrangement. Thie was • question, not of money,
but of feel* The existence of an exclusive church without
any provision being made for the majority_ of the
people necessarily created dissatisfaction. The mo-
tion now made was very different to that made
twenty-five years ago. The object then was to make
ample provision for the !protestant clergy and to apply the
surplus proceeds or the church towards the education of the
people. That proposition was rejected, and since that period
no progress bad been made for giviog it effect. But the
government bad acted iudependently of it, and had passed
the Tithe Act, by which other arrangement@ had been made.
The whig party did not bring forward again the measures
relating to the church io Ireland, but being in opposition
they gave • hearty support to the measure of Sir R. Peel,
by which the endowment of Maynootb was converted from
an annual grant to a permanent grant, and this they did
because they considered that was a just measure, though
they lost many friends by it. He must say that to revive three
discussions would only be bringiog about a renewal of seri-
monious disputes without soy beneScial result. He held
himself absolved from voting in favour of this masers on
I account of what he said 25 years ago, and he trusted that
the hones would reject the motion.
I Colonel GREVILLE moved the adjournment of the
debate. (" Divide.")

Mr. MONS.ELL tliought it would be hardly fair that
each speeches es those of the Secretary for Ireland, of the
hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Sir Hugh Cairn.),
and of the Secretory for the Hume Department, should be
allowed to pass without a reply. (Cries of " Adjourn,"
end" Divide.,

The house then divided on the question of a4.l.)ournment
For the adjournment
Apiost . . 228-161

Mr. CANICIAN moved the adjournment of the house.
Sir G. GREY said be had no objection to that motion,
as it would have the effect of gettieg rid of the amend.
meet on going into committee of supply.
Mr. MONSELL would ask the indulgence of the hones
while he attempted, to reply to some of the statements made
that evening. (Cries of "Oh," and "Adjourn.") The speech of
the Secretary for Ireland did not elicit a single mark of up.
probation on his side of the house, while it was enthusiastic-
ally cheered by members opposite, and this showed clearly
what was the tendency of the opinions he had expressed.
The right boo. baroset raid the tendency of the motion was
to overthrow the established church of Ireland, but the
hon. member for &ahead explained that he only desired
to have • committee to investigate the present ecclesias-
tical establishment of Ireland, and he did not
even say how the surplus revenue, if there
was any, should be applied. He (Mr. Moosell)
disclaimed soy intention to overthrow that church, which
could only be accomplished by a revolution ; but
he said that if there was any surplus it ought to be
applied for the benefit°, the great body of the Irish
What wall it in the cireumstasses of Ireland whnict
cheesed the opinions of these who sat on the Tteeeary

bawds ? At the time whim they epee so strongly oL
subject, formerly,elniost the whole of the catholic clergy
a large body of the bishops were repealer& The Orgy diff
MOD ear that at that time there was a powerful agitwou
Ireland? headed by a powerful and that the gave
meet yielded to fear what they now faded to yield to j
tine. (hear, hoar.) He should certainly yore fa,
motion.
Mr. BCIILLY complained of the absence of the ankle lost
at the, heed of the government, and observed there was ale
• very significant absence on the opposition side of tl.j
' house, the right Lon. member for Bucks not Lin, is h 7
Awe.
The motion for the adjonrnment of the hone aas this
put, and declared by the Speaker to be carried.
The home eocerdinely adjourned at 25 minutes to 3.