The Express.
London, England, 1864-04-22 00:00:00

EVENING, APRII(Af, 1864.

SUPPLY.

The house Uses west mu committee of supply.
Lord C. PAOET proposed& proceed with the remaining
YA eetiaestet
(*Alin TALBOT said it was understood that the navy
estimate would not be proposed after 10 o'clock, end Is
cosesqueron several hon. members Wei left the house..
After some conversation it was arranpd that the aslant*
s►oald be moved as Boeday next
The haw then mums&
HIGH COURT AT BOIIRAY.
This bill was read a third time and pained.
COURT OF JUSTICIARY (SCOTLAND) BILL.

The house ►aslet goes into wmintittse au :hi; bill.
The LORD.ADVOCATE explained that the object of the
bill wss to remove doubts as to the power of the to:es:wiz
council to regulote the distribution of circuits ia
is the same way as le England.
The bill thew passed through committee.
FISH TENDS (SCOTI ANDI BILL.
This bill passed through committee.

SUMMARY PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill pared through committee.

CHARITABLE ASSURANCES ENROLMENTS BILL
This bill wm read a moved time.
BRIDGES (IRELAND) BILL.
The boom having gobs into committee on this bill,
Mr. BUTT objected to its further progress, on the
grotiod that it would alter the whole system of greed jury
militias is Ireland, and moved that the chairman do leave
the chair.

Mr. GEORGE defended the bill. The sole object of
the bill was to suable the county of Kilkenny to contribute
• moiety towards the building of tbis bridge.
After a few words from Mr. ficLuvag also in support of
the
Mti.II+7HITESIDE raid this was as useful • bill u could
be promoted to the boom.

Sir R. PEEL said there Gould be no doubt that this was
a poem! bill, and might be applied to the whole of Ireland.
As it altered the fuodamental primiple of the jury laws of
Irel►od, he thought it would be bettor to wait until mo-
ther erosion, in order to iatroduce it es a private measure
only.

Mr. O'HAGAN also thought that, u a public bill, it
°unlit not to pan.
The committee theft divided upon the motion that the
chairman do leave the chair :

For the motios
Agelost it
The oliatrmaa left the chair.
GOVERNMENT iNNUMES BILL

128
b 5-43

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER loosed
that the following members be nominated on the select com-
mittee on Cioveromeot Aoouities :—The eliminator of the
Exchequer, Mr. Sotheroo Esmourt, Mr. IL Gibers', Mr.
Henley, Sir X. Farquhar, Sir S. Northoote, Mr. Hoyden,
Mr. Goodson, Mr. C. Turner, Mr. Hubbard, Mr. H.
B. Sheridan, If r. Ayrton, Mr. fiodgkinson, XL Herbert,
Led Mr. Paget.
Agreed to.

Sir M. FARQUFIAR moved that the committee should
have power to mod for perms, papers, and records. He
sad his object was to have the subject more folly iequired
into, sad the real object of the promoters of the bill ascer-
tained.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in opposing
the motion, said the inquiry proposed by the hoe. member
could not be entered upon without involving these
two consequences. Friendly societies would be entitled
to show how they would be injured by the bill,
and in that case it would be impossible to stop
short of inquiring how far their modes of proceeding, rules,
and oonatitutious were sound. The government was respon-
sible for the bill, but himself more than any other member of
it, and he was prepared to defend the measure, but it would
be impossible for him to go into the totally undefined in-
quiry the hon. member proposed. The committee world, if
this motion were carried, not be • committee on the clauses
of the bill, but would amount to the rejection of the bill for
the present session. If they were to have • committee to
inquire into the subject up stain it would be impossible to
carry the bill into a law this session. This bill had been care-
fully and minutely considered in parliament, and the effect
had been that bodies of panting, not got together by agents,
but acting spontaneously, had sent petitions in favour of the
bill. He had to-day received • statement from all the life
insurance cans in Scotland, in which they said that parlia-
ment must deal with the question how far government
should interfere io • matter of this kind, but they believed
it would be a bill that would be beneficial to the country.
He objected to Sir Alexander Spearman and lir. Scndszeore
being examined by the committee. They could not speak
one word nannies was responsible for it. He had suggested
that the machinery of the bill, whatever it was, should
be laid on the table of both houses of parliament for a cer-
tain number of days, during which it might be made the
subject of discussion, end that it should not be brought isto
operation until after it bad Famed the ordeal ; but empower-
ing the committee to inquire into the effect of the bill on
friendly societies was only a mode of postponing the bill to
• future session, and, in point of fact, indefinitely poet-
potting it.

Mr. 80THERON-ESTOOURT said be had told his hon.
friend that the regular course of proceeding was not to move
this motion now. The renter course was that the com-
mittee should go up stairs and examine the clauses, and if
in the course of the examination they should require evi-
deuce, then they should come down to the hones and make
a motion to he allowed to seed for papers and persons.
That was the lionise that had &Ivey' been pursued, and it
was followed in & committee of which he was chairman
in 1830, and which relatof to friendly societies. If they
were to go into that committee at all, be apprehended they
were to have the same power. The committee ought to
have exactly the same control over its own proceedings as
other select committees, and on that nederstanditghe should
recommend his boo. friend to withdraw his motion. On the
other hand, he hoped be would not do so miles' they had
a distinct under that when they got into committee,
and it should be the assure of the committee to require
evidence, nothing that had hitherto passed, or which should
peas, would prevent the chairman from coming down and
making the same motion. There were three points to
which their attention must be drawn ; first, whether
it was porible by any machinery that could be ap-
plied to carry out the benevolent ixtentioee of this
bill • secondly, whether the machinery employed would be
likely to affect other institutions ; and thirdly, and which
was by far the hardest to get over, they ought to satisfy
themselves with regard to the risk which the government
would run by carrying out this bill. If they could not
make inquiry into these points they ought not to go into
the committee at all, and he thought the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ought to depend on the discretion of the com-
mittee.

Mr. T. HANKY hoped his hon. friend would not with-
draw his motion without • distinct understanding to the
effect suited by the last speaker. lie had objected to the
committee being appointed at all, but it it were appointed
they ought to have power to take evidence.

Sir M. FARQUHAR would withdraw hie make, if it
were understood that evidence would be taken before the
committee if required.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought It
was understood that the general practice might be followed
of calling officials to give information with respect to the
daunt, but they would go before the committee merely as
the assristants of the responsible minister. He mast, how.
ever, entirely decline to give any expectation that the
government could, under any I:imamate/ices, be parties to
an examination into the subject of friendly societies by this
committee, which would be destructive to the bill.

Mr. AYRTON wanted an amurance from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer that this committee would go upstairs, as
any other committee, perfectly free and unfettered, to
decide for itself whether it would require evidence or not.
If the pledge were given, there would probably be co mine.
tams to withdraw the motion ; but if it were refused, he
should support the motioa, for as it appeared to him the
right both gentleman bad preferred a claim to the house
which, if allowed, would be fatal to its character and self-
r".l.*et

kV ROEBUCK wanted to know wh►t form there could
be in a declaration from the Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
far when the committee met it would be for the majority to
decide whether they should uk for power to call witnesses.
(Bear, haw.)

Lord J. MANNERS thought the boo. and learned gentle-
mac rather undervalued the force of the declaration of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, for as he understood it the
right boo. gentleman would employ the whole force of the
government to defeat any application the committee might
make to take evidence. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had promised himself to give them all the information they
required, but they had heard enough from him as to the
merit. of the bill, and might sow desire other evidemee upon
questions of detail. (Hear, hear.)
Y. GIBSON said that it would he a oamplete de-
parture from the general nil* if. epos a bill being referred
to a select committee with a view of settling clauses, the
principle having been affirmed at the second reading—(oh,
oh,)—they were to take independent evidence on the whole
merits of the queatioe.
Mr. WEI FTBSIDE said that both the right boo. gentle-
men opposite agreed in this, that if the committee wished
for independent evidence the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was rmsly, on the part of the government, to give it. (Hear,
hear.) But if the committee wished for really independent
• evidence they were not ho have it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. VIVIAN said that if the motion of the hoe, baronet
were agreed to, the effect of it would he to postpone
the question for the present session. (Cries of " Divide.")
Lord PALMERSTON said the house ought to know the
true ground on which they were going to vote. The ques-
tion was whether this bill was to be thrown over entirely
for the present session. (" Hear, bear,' and" No, no.")
That was the real effect of the motion. ("No. no.") It mss
evident if any one thought of the matter for a moment.
What was the object of the inquiry! Why it necessarily
involved, as his right boo. friend the Chancellor of the
Exchequer stated, the going into the affairs of all those
who wanted to prevent the hill pass* into a law, and who
would for that purpose choose to go before the committee to
make statement.. (Hear, hear.) It would have been much
more fair to move that the bill be read that day six months.
The effect of the motion would be to render it perfectly
impossible that the bill should pass into a law this session.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir W. rOLLIFFE mid they had just heard from the
noble lord that the effect of this motion, if carried, would
be to defeat the bill. (In the other hand, they had received
the assurance of his right hon. friend (Mr. Eatootirt), to
which he wished to add his owe, that there was tie *tontine
no the part of his hon. friend to emcee the principle of the
bill. (Hear, hem.) As far se be could understand, the

house mad take their choice between theirs two atstements.
(Haar. Mier.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ( who was
met by cries of " Spoke ") said he hoped he might be
allowed to add a few words by way of explanatios. He
was sorry that what he had mid had boon miennd•reMwi.
It woo a tablas to appose be had totoodod that hie voice
Jose obould its board up the wonoontdo. It would oe per
fecUy oreapehint to the isommittee and be should desire
that they should be enabled to hear explanations from
those who were the official advisers of lb* government—
(ironicel cheers from the opposition)—bat not that they
should do foto general evidence. (Divide.)
Mr. BUCHANAN observed that there would he no rvriovt
Woad by the committee. He wished to ask, was it likely
is the present excited sista of feeling on the subject, that
this result would give satisfaction to the country : (Crum
of " Divide.")
The home then divided, and the members were.
For the motion lO4
Against
The motion ems ooasequently lost. (The artoonncement
was received with loud mieisterial cheers.)
The committee was then nominated.
LAW LIFE SOCIETY.

On the mottos of Mr. Ouooiy,
A relent wee ordered of all civil bill ejectment& entered
at the snit of the Law Life Society is Ireland, in the
counties of Mayo and Galway, since Hilary Quarter Ses-
sions, 1832. _

BANKRUPTCY ACT.
The select committee on this act was nominated.
COUNTY BRIDGES.
Mr. REYGATE obtained leave to bring in ► bill to pro-
ride for the erection of county bridges in Eogland and
Wales, sad the bill was read a first time.
JUDGMENT, &C.—LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motioa of Mr. HAMELD, the select committee on
this bill was nominated.
The house adjourned at lO minutes to 1 o'clock.