The Express.
London, England, 1863-07-10 00:00:00

THE AMERICAN DEBATE.

Sir J. FERGUS-SON gave notice that tomorrow (this
day) be would make an appeal to the bon, and learned
member for Sheffield relative to the resumption of the de-
bate on Monday evening on the question of recognition of
the Southern States of America.

- -
Lord PALMERSTON said the government proposed to
take the Supply at a morning sitting on Friday (this day),
and that the government would feel much obliged to boo.
gentlemen who had notices on the paper if they would
king them on at the evening sitting.
THE FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR
EXPENSES) BILL.

Lord PALMERSTON, in moving the second reading of
this bill, rid the house would be sprite aware of the con-
dition of the matter. For the preparation of various forti-
fications, and for the purchase of land, the expenditure of
about seven millions had been sanctioned by the house, but
the forte of Spithead were last year reserved for further
consideration. The house would see by the schedule that
all the works already sanctioned had made considerable
prognee, and some had been performed under the estimates
and some above the estimates, but there had ben a small
saving upon the amount. When the house went
into committee wound be the proper time for discussing the
Spithead forts i and he thought he should be able to show,
from the experience of the American was—(bear, hear)—
and the great progress made in our guns, that the govern-
ment were justified io saying that those forte would be a
very material and important addition to the defences of
Portsmouth. He would say nothing of the va-
rious iron-clads which had in America been crip-
pled, and some of them sunk. The government
had by experiments in this country ascertained that the
had gone which at 800 yards would send shot and shell
through a target representing the side of the Warrior ; and
there was every mum to believe that the same could be
accomplished at 1,000 yards. In committee be should be
fully prepared tediums this subject. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. SMITH rose to move the amendment of which be
had given notice—viz., "That no farther expenditure be
incurred for the present upon that part of the project for
fortifications which is based on the assumption that an
seamy might land in force and attempt to besiege
Portsmouth and Plymouth, except on such works
as are in a very advanced state of progress."
The hon. baronet said he was as anxious as the noble lord, or
any other hon, member in that hove*, that the country
should be put in a state of complete security ; but it was to
the fleet that this country most mainly look for its defence,
sod if that fleet were ewe allowed to fall below the
strength of the fleet of France, a great responsibility would
net on the government that permitted it. This country
never could be invaded if the strength of the navy were
maintained. Some of the works to which this bill referred
had advanced so far that it would be unwise to arrest their
but the other works that were not NO far advanced
mr?gtrr :tither be stopped or reduced to a smaller
sale. If all these works were carried out it
would require the entire army, militia, volunteers,
and all, to garrison them, and there would be no army left
for the field.
Sir DE LACY EVANS concurred with his bon. and
gallant friend in a great many of the details which he bad
brought under the notice of the house, and particularly
with regard to the Portsdown Hill forts. What was pro-
posed was, that there should be five forts on the hill, where-
as, in a discussion which took piece on the subject last
session. it was held by the boo. and gallant gentleman and
others that two would be ample for the purpose.
The Marquis of HARTINCTON mowed the amendment,
and observed that the works at Portadownhill, which
were generally approved, were in such a Sate of forward-
-0.111 as not to come within the scope of Sir F. Smith's
Prenatal-
Mr. COBDEN said that this scheme of fortification was
entirely attributable to one person, Lord Palmerston, and
if that person were now absent, he believed the project
would not be carried further. In fact, as the member for
Birmingham bad somewhat bluntly remarked, nothing
could be done in this house unless the Prime Minister
was present. The whole matter had its origin in the
brain of that noble lord, who had been long haunted
with the idea that steam had bridged the Channel, and
thus diminished our power of resistance to France. But
bow could that be unless the French possessed a larger
amount of steam than we! And comparing oar steam mer-
cantile marine with that of the French. we had 20-horse
power to one of theirs. Surely, then, a fact lilt.) that could
not have rendered this country more vulnerable. With re-
gard the fortifications on Portsdown-bill, if the house would
agree to bold a session there for one day, he undertook to
say that they would vote either that the works should be
stopped, or that Englishmen must no looser slog " Rule,
Britannia," or " Ye mariners of England." For what wee the
object of these fortresses, but that English soldiers should
take refuge is them from the attack of an enemy's army
who bad succeeded in effecting a landing on the oust. His
objection to the scheme of the government was that it was a
disgrace and dishonour to the age, new to Englishmen. and
one that would never have been tolerated in former times.
It was also calculated to inflict a more permanent wound
upon the reputation and good fame of the sculled liberal
party than anything that had yet been done by • parliament
that was famous for' gnoble deeds. These inland fortifica-
tions, moreover, would require an enormous force to render
them safe or useful, and protect them from capture by a
coup de main. The hon. member concluded by entering
his earnest protest against the bill.
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that if the policy of the govern-
ment in promoting this scheme of national defence, which
the hon. member for Rochdale contended involved a grea;
waste of public money, had not been again and again
approved of by the country at large, it never could have ar-
rived at its present stage ; nor unless the country were
persuaded that in the execution of the scheme there was
likely to arise a great saving of public money at all times,
and particularly in times of great national emergency.
Colonel DICKSON said the only power they had
to dread was France, but the Emperor of the French
had resided in this country amongst military mini, and he
was fully aware that it would be highly ridiculous to
attempt the invasion of this country. Hon. members
should remember that they were the guardians of the public
purse, and when he looked at the condition of his own cce.
stituency, and the schemes which were suspended on account
of the want of a small sum of money, and which, if carried
on, might not only save the lives of thousands of people,
but increase the wealth and prosperity of the country, be
would not only designate this proposition u visionary, but
as one also that it would be a downright crime to vote this
money for. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. BERKELEY said there was an increase on all the
items in the schedule of 60,0001. He, however, would no::
allude to what took place upon a like discussion in the
last session, but ask the noble lord to explain why there
should be an increase of the amount be had named.

Lord FERMOY said he voted spinet the oriiial propo-
sition to speed eleven millions of the public money upon
fortifications, and he should vote spinet the present mo-
tion. The hon. and gallant baronet had no authority for
saying that the people were in favour of fortificatious ; and
he believed that when the people were appealed to wavy
bon. gentlemen would find themselves wholly unsupported,
and that they bad been reckoning without their host.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said it was quite impterible for him
to concur in all the observations of the hon. member for
Rochdale, at the same time be would enter his decided pro-
teat against the folly of having a central arsenal in Stafford-
shire. He should support her Majesty's government on
this occasion reserving for the present the question of the
Spitltesd fora, merely remarking that until these forts were
finished we should be leaving open the gates of a fortress
which might be armed against ourselves.
Sir E.. COLEBROOKE was not opposed to the fortifica-
tion of our masts io general, or to the scheme of the go-
vernment in particular ; but he objected to its being carried
out to au extravagant extent in point of cost, and toe degree
which would weaken our forme and prevent their being
concentrated on a single spot. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET said he was not surprised that the hon. li
member for Rochdale should take exeeptiou to the scheme
for the construction of these forts, remembering the oppo-
sition which the hon. member had raised to the measures
which the government had adopted for putting our navy in
a state of defence. (" No, no," from fir. Cobden ' • " only
against waste.") Well, he (Lord C. Paget) did
not recollect any occasion at which his hon. frisod had not
made the observations which he had repeated to the house
that evening. Bet what was the best proof that could be
afforded that his hoe. friend's views ere, sod were
eot at present, in the ascendant in the country ? Why,
that they never now beard about an invasion ; there were
so panics now ; no lean of a dement upon our waste. (Hear,
bear.) We had largely iterated our Hest —(" hear,
b from both aides of the hoar)—and wham the
affect at steam power was considered, then mold