The Express.
London, England, 1863-02-25 00:00:00

E]wREO9)

BRNCHERS' JITRUIDIMON AND AUTHORITY

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In reply to Mr. Itoxeccc who asked when it was pro-
posed to proceed with this bill,
Sir G. BOWYER mid be had no intention to press it
forward unduly. He wished to take that course which wee
most convenient and respectful to the benches'. He thought
it was arranged, ou die last isocasiou when the bill was
before the home, that he should settle with the Solicitor-
Gaon' the time at which it should be brought ;lictiloV
and be therefore proposed. in oceourrence with the
Gomel, to & the mooed reading for the day most eon-
rennin to the beechen with reference to the mattes they
had under openderatkes.
NAVY (PROMOTION AND HETDIENENT).
Sir J. HAY nee to move that this house will, upon
Thursday sort, smoke itself
tintto a committee to
of an address, submitting ha—L The position of the
officers of her Majesty's naval service, in respect of pro-
motion and retirement, is not eatiefactary, and ought to be
amended. 2. That, with • view to the mcomed efficiency
of the naval service, sod to meet the just km, of
officers with respect to promotion, it is dedra to adopt
for all ranks the principle of retirement by age. 34 That
the
_pay of naval °Moos ought to be so adjusted so to
enable them °Penitently to maintain the rank they bold,
and to five them fair remuairation for hononrable service.
Observing that considerable dissatisfactice existed
the officers of the navy, and in his opinion not withoua
grounds, that they looked upon the Admiralty as an
but friendly to the oonoessiou of their just rights, he m-
ceedod to justify and enforce his pro 'dons, Mowing that
his scheme of retirement would benefit the marries, and
mote its efficiency by producing a steady flow of promotion.
With reference to the last proposition, he painted out the
grievances suffered by offlcere of the navy through insuffi-
cient and diminished pay and allowances, which he con-
tended with those of the army and the civil service, and
also with the remuneration of officers in the navy of other
nations.
Lord PALMERSTON moved as an amendment that a
select committee be appointed to consider the present sys-
tem of promotion and retirement in the navy. Doing full
justice to the motives of Sir J. Hay, he objected to the
course be had taken, both out of and in the house, in aiding
to convert officers of the service into deliberative ow:amities"
whose object was to suite discontent against the rules of
the Berme, and he obarscterieed ,oh conduct as dangerous
to discipline and contrary to all the principles on which
armlet sad navies were governed. He 01:111%04CIOCI that, so
far m regarded pay and promotice, it was quite passible
for the numb= of all public Pavia' to get
up grievances in these respects ; but it was the duty
of pediment to deal with such questions on •
broad principle, and one which most have refereme to
the question of public expenditure. and to the amoral ad-
ministration and resonem of the country. He doubted
whether the motion now brought forward was one which
the house ought legimately, and with a due regard to the
discretion it always exercised, to entertain; in fact it
was an attempt to place the administration of the details
of a branch of the public service, for a time at least, in
the hands of the house. The motion asked nothing definite
and precise for the information and guidance of the amen-
tire, however the details might have bees elaborated in the
speech of the hosourable member. Hs mimed that
honorary rewards were not without Importance when the
services of the may sad navy were 0:Cd41111113. and the
principle on which those aervdres were rewarded was
not purely one of pay sad emolument He defended the
Admiralty against the attach which had been me& cm their I
contending that the orminsittee whisk had inquired (stn its
orpnisation and system had by implication admitted that
the MO of that department had failed. If the house
thought that an investigation into the date of the
navy was desirable the (overman would accede to that
some, and consent to the appointment of a committee for
that purpose.
Sir J. IiLPHINNFONE, not being • naval officer, as an
independent member strenuously supported the view of the
!=...0f the navy which had bees laid down, but he
the alter at the committee.
=el DIINOOMBB explained the reasons which, in
his opinion, canned the tailors at the ernamittee of DAL
Sir B. CLIFTON supported Or original motion. He
thought that boring expoded seek mew aims upon
the austeriel of the navy, we milt to look at the per-
astsmi.

Yr. B. 00011 BANI dlerented from some parts of Sir
J. Hay's same ; bed as • wiZibe thought it one for
wield' he deserved the higher&
/dr. FREELAND, in supperting the motion, observed
that the oaken of the nay_ had appealed to the Admiralty,
but had appealed in vacs; they bed laid their Mans be-
fore the hosed, who, sot showing that time claims were
naked, returned a tort and offensive reply. They were
then compelled to come to that house ; for to whom were
they to appeal
Mr. B. W. DUFF, though giving a general support to
tbe government, should vote for the original motion.
Oaptain TALBOT vindicated naval officers against the
emenrppore nun upon them by Lord Palmentoo. Hs likewise
su ted the motion.
BENTDZOIC, after some remarks upon the oom-
politico and proosedinp of the committee of 1861, admitted
that there was a peat deal el form in what had been said
by Lord Palmenton es to the made proposed by Sir J. Hay
of dealing with the quedian, sad suggested that this pro-
posal to refer it to a optima.", should be accepted.
Lord 0. PAGET analysed the Asa el retiremest pro-
posed by Ste 7. Hay, IllilOWing in detail the injurious Mem
it would exert upon the memos, and that it was impracti-
cable without indicting injustice upon cams. He disputed
the correetme of the emparises tends by Sir J. Hay be-
tween the pay of British and Femme naval cams. He did
net deny that there was room for improvement, but there
bad been
i peat improvements ends in the pay and position
of all OWN/ n the navy, and it was not fair to make
cherps essinst the Admiralty and to instigate odicen to
diembent.

SirT. ELKIN GTON insisted that Sir J. Hay was sot
Bible to the charge made against him by Lord Palmerston,
and that his motto, wm not own to say objeotiou on ar-
oma of its form. He, on his part, ehir Lord Palmerston
with inoomistenoy and a clangs of isWes in now pro-
Pootcy an blab., by • committee which he had op.
p in Be He (Sir John) thought the gen-
tian ought to be dealt with by the smentive, or, if
not, that it should he referred to a royal mambas.
With regard to the plan proposed by Sir .J Hay, he did
not aroma to all the details, but he esemborated Sir John's
statements re to the madsrpsyment of the mipaior officers
of the navy. Though be shield vote for tie motion if
Cbmto a &vi ten. he sampled whether he would not
.adimharp the ditty he bad so well preformed, by not
premium ; and he appealed to the government whether,
in that event, it would not be better that they should un-
dertake the question.
Atter a few words from Sir O. WOOD,

Sir J. HAY, in accepting the suggestion of the noble
lord at the head of the goverment, trusted that the com-
mittee would be one in which the hones aad the service
would have ocalidence. He would ailment to the motion of
the noble lord in the hope that the subject would be duly
inquired into by the committee, and that their recom-
mendation would be carried out with good faith by the
government. (Hear, War.)
The motion of Sir J. Hay was then withdrawn, and the
amendment of Lord Palmerston agreed to.
SECURITY PROW VIOLENCE.

Mr. ADDERLEY moved for leave to bring in • bill for pro-
viding for the farther amity of the persons of herati=
subjects from violence. He said that by the oon
act of 1861, the punishment of robberies with violence was
penal Davao& from three yeast* life, or &diary imprison-
ment with hard labour not exceeding two years. Him pro-
position was imply to snake the same addition to that
punishment for robberies with violence whir was made by
the act of 1841 to the punishment of attacks on the Queen,
and by the act of 1845 to the puniahment of malicious in-
juries to works of srt, viz. corporal punishment. (Hear,
her.) He prepaid that vi:.,
with the same object,
and for the are reamer sod he was convinced that the
result would be the same as in those two came. In the
dreary vista of brokendown experiments in penal enactments
daring the last fifty yeas these two acts stood oat •
past of complete sticcest. (Hear, bear.) His
followed precedent and cowmen sense, and so
being in • retrograde direction, it was dictated by
enlightened experisnes. In the Felony and Larceny Con-
moWithon Act of 1861 expand punishment for adults was
deliberately retread in the two cases be had mentioned.
He attached no weight to the argument that corporal pu-
nishment was a degrading punishment : those who ride°
argued from their own bincosece. Punishment to be effeo-
tual must be addressed to the motives of those who were
punished, and if there were men who bad no higher motives
than mere freedom from pain, it was better to visit
their crimes with such a punishment as woeld
; stop the recurrence of them, than to continue
las inefficient punishment for that purpose. The
late Duke of Wellington, when he gave his
evidence against the excessive use of corporal
punishment in the army, in the most marked way guarded
himealf against being supposed to express an opinion
against the necessity of that punishment in certain are;
and said that as a deterring and exemplary punishment it
wee absolutely orrery. Al regarded the internal disci-
, plias of prisons, he bad a very high authority, Major Fol.
• ford, the governor of Staffordshire gaol, who stated that
after thirteen years' experience, and after having every
spear of ruffian under his ere, he had never bed any oars-
to repeat corporal punishment • seeped time. (Hear,
hear.) The public opinion of the country would not be
carat to throw away • punishment which had been so
inteoessful If it had been successful in protecting her
i Majesty from violence and works of art from malicious in.
jury, would they be acting as seeable men if they allowed
the radio to remain exposed to acts of violence with this
effectual remedy lying idle in their hands ?
Sir G. GREY rid that it was not the intention of her
Majesty's government to oppose the introduction of the
bill. Ile wished, however, to goad himself against being
ornmated is any ma I. he principle. The house should
bear in mad that a key years since • ornasittee of both
houses weal oared olly through all the acts relating to the
earned law which were able to be amaididated, and de-
Ilbstarly recommended thee am* should be abolished
except le the two or three mass adverted to by the riyht
how. psetleowo. It would be for the bins ie seseldsr,
whim the bill came before those at • future mess, the pound
on which they were Baked to release their eters. He could
net gather from the stateussat of the right hon. gentleman
whether be proposed thitstri4rwers soutsweed to penal
esevitudeshould libserisbe tooorpseelpeeslumsd.or
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