The Express.
London, England, 1862-07-19 00:00:00

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were me. third time and Pawed :
Corbet's Estate, West Cheshire Railway, Eastern Counties
Railway (Epping lines), and Wert fllimpshire Mineral Rail-
way, BM,.

COLONIAL FORTIFICATIONS.

The Earl of CARNARVON then rose to call the atten-
tion of the house to certain chums connected with colonial
fortifications and defences, and to move for copies
of correspondence between her Majesty's government
sad the Governor-General of Canada in reference
to the Militia Mlle proposed and passed in the Canadian
parliament. The late ministry in Canada introduced
a militia bill, leaving the number of men unlimited; that
bill was rejected, and the ministry resigned. A bill had
since been passed authorising the enrolment of 5,000 seden-
tary militia and 5,000 active militia. So that the number
of available men under that act and under the act of 1859
wan 10,000, otiedenth the number recommended by the
royal commissioa. He did not fora moment doubt the
loyalty and devotion of Canada to the British throne, nor
did he forget the financial difficulties of that country, but he
could not help deploring the resolution at which the Cana-
dian legislature had arrived. (Hear, hear.) If Canada
raid possibly bring herself to believe that • contingent of
10,000 men was her fair and equitable proportion of the coal-
men burden, the was singularly unimpressed by the scenes
of horror enacting in America. There was no question more
important or pressing than the defence of the colonies
and the equitable distribution of the expenditure incurred
thereby. (Hear, bear.) There should be not only com-
munity of feeling between the mother country and her
colorsl possessione, but the latter should be prepared to
take on themselves • fair proportion of the common burden.
They had received from this country the highest of all gifts
—constitutional freedom—and they should know how to
value it and be prepared to defend it. Duties and sights; in
this ease he believed to be strictly inalienable. They went
band in hand together, and that nation whiclidesired to enjoy
the privilege of constitutional freedom should be
at all times to submit to the duties it imposed.-
r,
hear.) The noble earl concluded by moviog for the corres-
pondence of which he bail given notice.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE thought it was deeply
to be regretted that the Canadian parliament bad
not made a better provision for their militia
than they had done. Although the force bad been much
more than doubled, yet, taking everything into considers.
tioo, the provision that had been made was a most insufficient
fora for the defence °lithe colony at the present moment. He
was not prepared to my that such a step as this was not
a step in advance, but looking at the fact of the war in
America, and the possibility of the renewal of the threats
which had been made, he thought the Canadian parliament
aught to have made a much greater provision. The Canadian
people,o he considered, ought to have • force ready of sill
ler than the number originally contemplated by the bill
laid before the Canadian parliament, that is to my, of not
lees than 50,000 effective men and 50,000 in reserve—(hear,
hear)—and he thought it was not too much for the colony to
agree to this comae. He did not believe, if the colony were
threatened, that their spirit of loyalty would shrink from
the expenditure which might be thrown upon them;
er that they would not be ready to come for
in defence of their country; but adequate
organisation would be wanting, and that he thought was
a per dart in the colonial government. He most ear-
nestly hoped it was not too late to provide for the dangir,
bat whether it were so or not, every effort had bees made
by the home government to iodooe them to take the ne-
eswary steps. The bill was of fax too great importance
to be disposed of as • mere party question.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to express his
entire coacerrenee with the noble duke in the regret he
bad explored as to the conduct of the Canadian
parliament in not passing an adequate measure on
this subject. He could not understand what spirit
'odd have actuated the parliament in neglecting so to do.
Was it possible that they did not see, what every matt
mar see, that in whatever way the American war termi-
nated, whether in the sures of the Northern States, or in
their separation from the South, the immediate result of
the termination of the war would be an irruption into Ca-
nada? If the Northern Stites failed against the South.
they would attack Canada by way of compensation; if they
streseded, they would attack Canada in the drunkenoess of
victory'. (Hear, hear.) The Americans would hare an
army which weld he no longer under control ; and it was
idle to think that Canada possessed a description of force,
er • streerth of fore, which was deemed sufficient even
la former times.

Lori WODEHOUSE thought that the position of affairs
in Canada was exceedingly unsaturfactory, and that the
hew was obliged to the noble earl for having brought the
subject before their notice. He must say that he did not
think an attack upon Canada was inevitable upon the close
of the war with the United States. Suck an attack, how.
ever, was far from improbable, and in that state of the case.
be was equally surprised with the noble duke to find that
the Canadian parliament were not prepared to make those
sacrifice@ which their position demanded. It was perfectly
Irmo that there was no disposition to shrink from the obliga-
tion@ under which this country was placed towards Canada,
but we lied a right to expect that they would do their part.
The Canadian parliament had perfect control over the
government of that colony. He had seen, step by step,
c.mceesions made by which the Canadian parliament by de-
grees had obtained that control. They had passed measures
which no doubt they considered advantageous to them-
selves ; and be did not complain of this. Of the tariff they
tad made he did not feel himself competent to judge, bat
undoubtedly it had been drawn up with very little egard
to the interests of the mother country. The whole burden
of their diplomacy was thrown upon us ; and we had spared
them a portion of our not too large army ; but it was too
much that we should be called upon to risk • portion
of that army in • situation where they could not be sup-
ported, amid it wee idle to suppose they could resist. He was
aware that this was a very delicate and difficult question.
He felt himself incompetent to deal with the relations be-
tween this country and Canada ; but it would be a very
serious thing for us, and for Canada, and he asked what
would be the position of these troops if war should arise,
and if, as his noble friend had stated, it was impossible that
adequate arraagemente could be made to put the Canadian
militia into • proper state of organisation before next
spring ? Semite might occur during the coulee of the long
winter, which practically isolated Canada from the reach
of this country, which might be inevitable ; but we should
blame ourselves if we had not taken all three timely mea-
sures of precaution which human foresight could suggest.
After some further discussion the returns amended were
agreed to.
FOLIOS AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
. . .

This bill was recommittal, and come additional amend-
meets were introduced.
INDOSTRLIL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETISS BILL.

Thisllipared through committee ^ -
M ERCH T SHIPPLNG ACTS, &c. (AMENDMENT)

BILL. '
This bill was read • third Sham aad passed.
SALMON FISHERIES IIICOTLAN1?) BILL.

The report of the eue.dmeati VW reedeved:
SUMMARY JURISDICTION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill u reed a third tree sad paned

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The report of amendments was received.
JURIES BILL.
Thisbill was read a third time sod wood.

PETROLEUM BILL.

The report of ameedreteete was received.
Lord STANLEY bad speed toextend the measure tootber
klbuntnable substatoes ; but he had since been informed
that thn amendment would seriously interfere with 'behavi-
ors of every gas company in London, for it would prevent
say of them from having more than 40 gallon! of coal tar on
their premises at any one time. The amendment would
likewise lathe% a heavy blow upon another trade, for by re.
went chemical discoveries gas tar had been made the basis of
a number of beautiful dyes. He begged, therefore, to move
the omission of the amendment, and restore the bill to its
original form—namely, a measure for the safe keeping of
petroleum.
The amendment was therefore drunk out.

ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The report of amendments was received.
ELECTIONS FOR COUNTIES (IRELAND) BILL.
The report of amendments wan reamed.
THE COPYRIGHT (WORKS OF ART) BILL.
This hill was read a third time, and with amendments,
puma.
THE COUNCIL OF MEDICAL EDUCATION BILL.
This bill pared through °mnition.

THE PAROCHIAL BUILDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Thie bill was read a mooed time, and tke home adjourned
at Hi unmake to 8 o'olcck.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FaiDAy, Just 18.
The sitting was resumed at six o'clock.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. BRAND, a new writ was ordered to
lane for the election of a repreassintive for the Kirkcaldy
Burghs, in the room of Colossi Ferguson, who ha. accepted
the stewardship el Elentpielme.
THE AMERIOAN NEWR.
Mr. A. EORRTON—I wish to ask the Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs whether he hes received any
eesfirmation of the report which appears in the evening
gapers with
(Hear, hear.) der
a hugston regard to the surrender of General M'Clelhin
ith e.

Mr. LAYARD—In reply to the hon. pntdemen's clues-
lion I beg to state that no infomiation coelrmies the re-
port that appears in the late editions of the evening papaws
has been received at the Foreismoffice. (Hear, hear.)
ROMAN CATHOLIC CEREMONIES AT MONTREAL.
Mr. WHALLEY, with reference to an ceder issued by
the major-pneral commandiog at Montreal—Geoeral J. J.
Pope—(lan,ghter)—dated the 21st of June, 1862, command-
ing all soldiers to pay attention and respect to • Roman
catholic ceremony, called the Procession *lra. Host, wished
to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the major.
general, in issuing such order, acted in accordance with the
views of her Majesty's government and within the limits of
his authority ?
Sir G. C. LEWIS—The hou. gentleman must permit me
to remark—and I hope he will not think it any disrespect on
my part—that the Host is not a Roman catholic ceremony.
(A laugh.) In reply to his question, I can only day that the
war department has received no information upon the sub-
ject, and- therefore I am unable to give him any answer.
(Laughter, and "Hear, hear.")

TROOPS IN CHINA.
General PEEL salted the Secretary of State for War
out of what feeds the Indian troops in China, who had
not been voted by parliament or provided for in the esti-
mates, were to be paid.
Sir G. C. LEWIS explained that the reason why one regi-
ment, which it would oe seen was now at Shanghai), was
not included in the estimates, was that the government,
when the estimates were framed, did not anticipatethat that
Indian regiment would be detained in China. It
had been detained by the order of the ambassador in
consequence of the danger to our iaterests and to British
merchants at Shanghae. With regard to the mode of de-
fraying this unforeseen expenditure, it was hoped that the
vote for land forces would nos be exceeded, but if it should
turn out that that vote was exceeded, the ordinary practice
in that case hitherto had been either for the Treasury to
sanction a treader from any vote upon which there might
be a sairiniaof propose to the house a vote to cover the
excess. believed it was contemplated to make some
alteration in the Appropriation Act thin year, and he wag
not sure whether it would soy longer be competent to the
war department to obtain a transfer from one vote to
another. (Hear, hear.) In that case, if there should be an
exam, it would be neccesary to come to the house for a vote
to cover that excess.
THE NEW ORDERS IN CHANCERY.
Mr. 00/L, observing that the notice which he had given
upon this subject bad stood repeatedly on the paper, and
that once it had been thrown over by an important debate
occupying the whole night, and on no less than three occa-
sions by " counts out"-• (a laugh)—desired from the noble
lord at the head of the government some facility for submit-
ting it to the house upon an early occasion. Under the act
of parliament the home would lose its jurisdiction to proceed
in the matter by resolution unless that resolution were
come to within 36 days after the rules and orders were Ird
upon the table, and as Cie time would expire on Tuesday or
Wednesday next, he appealed to the noble lord to fix sup-
ply for an early hour on Monday, that he might have an
opportuniy of PProceeding with his motion. (Ilear, hear.)
Lord PAI.YEKIIFON announced that it was the inten-
tion of the government to propose a morning sitting for
Monday for the purpose of taking supply,
the committee of
and it was proposed to go on again with the committee of
supply in the evening. The hon. member would therefore
have an opportunity on Moods*, eveoieg of making the state-
ment ho wished to make unless age same misfortune
should attend him then as upon the other occasions he had
mentioned. (A laugh.) He hoped that hon. gentlemen
who had notices of motion preliminary to going into supply
would have the kindness not to bring them forward on
Monday morning, but to reserve them for the evening sit-
ting, in which case they would be able to make some
Progrum.

qurtioo

discussion

Mr. FORSTER said, otesideriog the nature of the
late intelligence from the States, and the great disasters
which appeared to have involved the North, he felt that if
we wished the present war to be prosecuted in a vigorous
manner, we could not attain our end in a more in-
genious way than by an offer of mediation
such as that esseitted by this motion. But
he could well that
there were many boa. gentle-
men who might my that after all this war was so !suicide),
so foolish, and so wicked, that we must simply consider bow
we could put • stop to it, and that it must end. (Hear, hear.)
It was all very well to say, " Hear, hear," but each was not
the opinion of the vast meicirity of the twenty million men
of the Northern States of America. He certainly could not
but express his admiration of the courage and endurance
displayed by the men of the South in the defence of their
homes—(hear. hear)—but if we wished to work up the
North to the same pitch of frenzy as the South, let us offer
them foreign interference, and we might be sure we should
do so. On the other hand, if we let them alone it was not
, improbable the North
_would soon find out that they had
.
undertaken -

•task too hard for them. (Hear.) No lea; than
300,111 men were now asked for by President Lincoln, but
he could not help thinking there would be a great difficulty
in getting them, because the multitudes of unkind wounded
going home were not likely to prove good recruiting ser-
geants. (Hear, hear.) If, however, we wanted these
300,000 men to be found, all we bad to do was to send out
intelligence b the next mail that England, in concert with
others, th the North with interference. (Hear,
hear.) There wens some gentlemen who went still farther
end said it was better we should be at war with America
than submit to such a peace as we have. He did not charge
that upon his hon. friend (Mr. Lindsay), but he asked, where
was thejostification for a war with America? Were we to
go to war with a country on account of disasters at home, et
on account of what was happening in that country? Such a
war would not only be wicked and unjust, but fool-
ish in the greatest degree. They were told the
population of lancashire were suffering, and that
the house would have to devise means for their relief. They
could keep that population in luxury for less than the price
which a war with America would cost us. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord who had just spoken alluded to the inter-
ference which in modern times took place in France. Any
one, however, who had road the history of what occurred is
France most admit that the horrors which took place there
were only rendered more horrible by that interference.
Such, be felt mewed, would be the result of any inter-
ference in the American civil war. This was not • common
civil war, but it was an entire change of the social system.
He was not saying the South or the North were wrong, but
be believed that the terrible system of slavery bad teen the
cause of the present conflict. If the South were the Wave-
holders, the North were involved in the traffic, and yet he
believed it was generally acknowledged now that Orrery
was the real cause of the war. (No, no.) He most fully
believed that slavery had been the cause, and that the war
would result in putting an end to slavery. (Hear, hear.)
He could not say how it would be accomplished, but he
maintained the present conflict was a great revolution,
which was ending a system which had done much more
harm to the whites than to the blacks. At the present
time there was great reluctance on the part of Use Nor th to
make use of theslarery question, end there was a feeling
not to be sneered at that they were loth to turn this civil
war into a servile war, but if we interfered they would at
once throw the responsibility of a servile war upon us.
Three months after OW interference the nevem
would be so many sepoys in the Northern fumy.
He thanked her Majesty's government for having
preserved this country, under the temptation of great pro-
vocation, from having any responsibility whatever in this
terrible war, and he earnestly hoped they would moth' se
in their policy of soninterferenoe. He should certainly vote
against the motion before the house. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE thought the house justified in ozone-
an opinion on this question, difficult as it was, and this

ring a. en this que..
THE WAR IN AMERICA.—MR. LINDSAY'S motion afforded a proper epportuoity for the government
MOTION. to state their feeling upon it. He argued that there was
Mr. J. CLAY appealed to the hon. member for Sunder- nothing in the original constitution of the United States to
land not to bring forward that evening the motion which prevent any of the states from seceding from the Union,
stood in his name. (Hear, hear.) It was true that a die- and, looking to the mamar with which states se.
come= such as the hoc. member wished to provoke might, ceding from other nations bad been received into
if brought forward at the right time, be productive of the Union, he could not see why there should be an
very great good but unless that time was very admirably objection to any states setting up as a republic for them-
chosen—andthi's did not appear to him to be the right time selves, while the remarkable inomnpatibihty between the
—.it might be productive of very considerable mischief. North and South rendered secession probable. The right
(Hear, hair.) The special grounds open which he ventured hon. gentleman elaborately argued the doctrine of the ra-
te make this appeal to his hon. friend were the currency of cognition of revolted states, as it had been in many eases
a rumour as to • success of the Confederates, which, without accepted in Europe, aa distinguished from foreign inter-
bavine any strong confirmation, or perhaps may very solid vention—a doctrine which had been especially recognised
grottoes by the United Stehle ; and he urged that there were ample
Mr. A. rise to order. I wish to ask whether precedents for such an interference on the part of England
the hon. member is to be allowed to proceed with • state- in the present contest in America.
wet Mr. GREGORY believed that if they wished to stop
The SPEAKER—The hon. member must confine his this lamentable war, and to stay the terrible calamity that
lusetion to the very narrowest limits. (Hear, hear.) was impending over Lancashire, they should adopt the
Mr. CLAY would simply then say that whether this resolution. It was Wed—if this countryoffered mediation,
amour were tree or false—(cries of "Order.") and that it was refused, what would be the conseemerce ? If
The SPEAKER—The hon. member must tot pursue the it was offered in a friendly spirit he hada strong =premien
=cession. He matt simply ask the question. that it would sot be refused, but if it was the seat step
Mr. CLAY must then, though very reluctantly, move the was recognition. If we took the course by ourselves
adjournment of the house—(hear, 'hau)—merely for the he agreed with the lion. member for Emdford that it was
purpose of having an opportunity of making a few remark". probable it would produce war, but if it was taken in coo-
His special reason for departing from the usual coune, and junction with other European powers, he was satisfied they
making this appail to the hon. member for Suoderlard, was would hear nothing whatever of war. (Hear hear.
the currency of this rumour—(" Order, order," and " Hear, Unless that course was adopted the present deplorable stets)
hear")--which, although the truth of it might very reason- of things was likely to be indefinitely protracted.
ably be doubted, was ton, in the opinion of very way per- The North seemed possessed of • monomania.
sons, likely to prove not far from the truth. ("Hear. Its fixed idea was, that it was immense—that all
hear," and " No, no.") The decision of the house likely to that surrounded it was vast. It exulted in having
he come to upon the resolution that his hon. friend proposed the largest army in the world ; it even gloried in
to move must be • great deal influenced by the truth or the respect of eroding in two years a greater debt than the
falsehood of that report A very short time would put old and effete monarchies of Europe had been able to aocu-
them in possession of accurate information, and the matter mutate in centuries. (Laughter.) To show to what extent
might then be ripe fordiscussion. He would not attempt to this feeling had gone he would read an extract Moms news-
make any observations ea to the object of his hon. friend's paper that had been sent to him, which, but that the subject
resolution, but he might be allowed to say this, that if hie was so serious, might be amusing. It was from • paper
hon. friend had any Southern proclivities, he certainly called the Debar Sue, published in the state of Illinois.
need not be anxious, as matters appeared to steed at pee- It commenced, " The man who owes embody is a poor
sent, to interfere, for his friends appeared to be working in. miserable being —(loud laughter)—nobody manifests any in-
dependence fur themselves as fast aa they possibly could, and Merest in his welfare—(renewed laughter)—nobody cares •
their independence would be all the firmer if it were achieved cent whether be lives or dies. lie is lean, henry; and ge-
by themselves. (Hear, hear.) tonally as poor as the pin feathers of Job's turkey.
Mr. J. EWART believed that the discussion of this ques. (Great laughter.) All great mioisters, all sensation
tion would at the present moment be most injudicious, and authors, all public men were as deep in debt
it might be mischievous. He therefore earnestly entreated as Pharaoh's army were in the Red Sea. (Loud
his bun. friend the member for Sunderland not to press his laughter.) Debt ennobles a man ; it gives a man
motion. experience in humau nature • it keeps him moving, cape.
Mr. SCULLY joioed in the appeal. cially if he never pays rent. ILatighter.) To owe is human,
Mr. LINDSAY said that he had already postpooed his but to pay divine ; therefore a man ought not to attempt to
motion on several occasious, but he thought they bad now become superior to human nature and try to emulate divi-
'efficient information before them to enable the house to city. (Great laughter.) The greetings of a nation increases
deal with the question. with its Rationed debt ; so make a note of this at 90days."
THE CIVIL WAR IN AMERICA. (Reeewed laughter.) He (Mr. Gregory) believed that tre
Upon the motes for going into supply, were thousands and thousands of Americans who would
Mr. LINDSAY roes to move that, in the opinion of this gladly hail our intervention. (Hear, hear.) In support of
house , the States which have seceded from the Union of the hie view he would quote the remarkable words of a Presi-
miblic of the Uniicd States have so Meg maintained them- neat of the United Stet= John Quincy Adams, father of
the respected American minister at this court. In 1839, at
republic
under a separate ad established government, sad
have given given such proof of their `determination and the New York Jubilee, he said that if the day should ever
ability to support their independence, that the propriety of come—and might heaven avert it—when the affections of
the people of those states should be alienated from each
offering medietioe, with the view of terminating hostili'
between the contending parties, was worthy of the serious other it would be better for the disunited states to
art f in friendship than to be held together by constraint.
and immediate attention of her Majesty's governrnar..
He thought there could not be a doubt that T.hen,,would.,,be the time for reverting to the original con-
the dimol-
the Emperor of the French would only be too I"tu"°e• forming al,'" more perfect eby
happy in joining England in offering mediation. He Mug that tichocouldrds of no. lorigerdbfe bound. (Hear,; zeist.2
simply asked that government should offer, in eon- they" hdwiwe the
tow be written ove wise arnthe'rcitmeoor Tlg IT
house in
Bert with other powers, this mediation. Be believed o,N:teiri:Deep seated and viodiet;ve as were the
that they would be ready
basis of separation, and if the Northt°declincLive, thietn base et feelings ea, r.Gregory) on 'Toth sid he (M believed that time,
tho b
eluded that the recognition of the Southern States on the the great healer of wounds, would tooth them,
of even
Called
part of this country would be perfectly justifiable, if our the sites were
.disuoi The government
Washington might be no more, but the traditions
government thought that the Southern people, as • nation,
were fit to be received into the comity of nations. He of Wuhingtan would prevail at both sides, north and south,
believed that our government knew more of it than he and he was 'untied that a great future was in store for both
pretended to du, hut be believed that the Emperor of the republics. Rivals they might be, but it would be in the
Preach was prepared to rein in offering mediation,
arts el =see. Most heartily did he hope that these
j
Mr. P. TAYLOR. said he understood it was not competent two great rambles would take their new oourse,
for Dim to move .the amendment of which he had given forgetful
yet not I retie independ. ant, yet DM
of their common origin ; bidding each other
notice. He therefore proposed to state his reasons for be-
farewell in the words of Abraham to Lot, "Is not the
having that the motion should be negatived. The hon. , and before thee? separate, then, I pray thee, from
member for Sunderland hail kept his motion dangling before w""`"
;let there be no strife between me arid
emfor we are
the house, and hail at length brought it forward at a very me
brethren." (Loud cheers,)
isauspie:sous time The hon. gentleman might have remem-
bered the not very reverential saying, that Providence fights Mr. S. FITZGERALD moved the adjournment of the
at the aide of the strongest battalions ; and that the twenty debate.
millions of the North were not likely to he put down by Lord PALMERSTON—I should hope after the length
the five mihoes of the South—(" Hear, hear," and " No, of this debate that the house would be disposed to
oo")—encumbered as they were by four or five millions of come to • decides to-night. (Hear, hear.) The subject of
slaves. The bon. gentleman had been one of the strongest this debate is one of the highest importance, and ore of the
advocates of economy, but if be bad voted for every esti- most delicate character. I cannot think that • pietpooeineet
mate for many sod navy, and for every fortification that her of the conclusion of the debate until next week can be at-
Majesty's government bad proposed, he world have done tended with any bereficial result one way or another.
more for the muse of economy than bi- ventilating the sub- (Hear, bear.) I confess I regret very much that my hon.
jest which be had brought before the house. So far from fneui has thought it his duty to bring the subject nuder
any attempt on our part to mediate iu the great struggle discussion in the house in the present state of things.
that was going on in America being likely to prove enemas- There can be but one wish in this country with regard to the
ful or of soy advantage, he thought it would tend greatly war, and that is that it should end. (Hear, hear.) But I
to increase that irritation and bitterness which was felt on much doubt whether the only end which can satisfactorily
the other side of the Atlantic towards thiscountry. If the be looked for—gamely, an amicable arrangement between
South was mole iudependent by such means. it would be the two patties—is likely to be accelerated by animated
=them more than an armed truce—a putpouenient of the debates in this house. (Hear, bear.) We have bad the
war. It would be no solution of the difficulty. The South American war waged to-night in words by the champions of
deemed indefinite extension into the territory of the West, both sides. It is quite true that many things have been
and that the North would never yield—that neutral ground said which must be gratifying to the feelings
would remain a scene for negro escapes, and the nucleus of of both parties now fighting in America, but on
future wars. He believed that the observations he had the other hand things have been maid in the
made bad at least a tendency to show that it was neither warmth of debate which must tend to irritate and
our right ror interest to interfere in this unhappy civil wet. wound the feelings of the party against whom they have
Without being prepared with • satisfactory solution of the been levelled ; and it is in human nature to thick more of
difficulty erising from the slave creation, we could things that are offensive than of things that are gratifying
not help the Northern States, and the nation that and friendly. (Hear.) I therefore confess that I regret that
had spent 20 millions in emancipating her own this debate his been brought on, and I should earnestly
slaves could not consistently help the Southern. hope that the house would not agree to the motion of
Lord A. V. TEMPEST thought simple medistion, Imy hon. friend, but would leave it in the hands of the
unless hacked by ulterior measures in the event of government to deal with the future, content as I believe
its being rejected, was not worth the paper on the country is with the manner in which the past has been
which it was proposed. (Hear, beer.) He thought they conducted by them. (Hear, hear.) Ido not ask this en
might as nn act of civility recognise the Confederate States, the ground of confidence in the government of the day,
and he had the authority el Sir James Mackintosh for hold- because I think whatever party might have the rule in the
ing that that would afford no just cams Belli to the United country, whoever might be sitting on these benches, It
States. Ey so acting, no doubt they would incur the would be wise and expedient in the house, to kave •
odium and perhaps the hostility of the United States, and matter of such difficulty and delicacy, and of such WIMPY,
it was for them to consider whether the recognition of the importance, in the hands of the responsible govern= Jed
Confederate States was worth that risk. He be- the day to deal with, according to the varying circumstances
Sewed the government might interfere either alone of the moment, and apt by a resolution dictatingand
or in conjunction with other European powers to out a specific course to tie up their hands, and take upoa
snob a manner as would teed to put an end the house the responsibility that properly lbelonfl
to this fruitless, unnecessary, and frightful war. He be- to the government in *Moe at the moment. (Cheers.) The
limed there were many persons in the North who would motion of my hon. friend points to two them, to media-
wish to ape as interference which would put an end to this tioo, and to achnowledgmeot We have beard
war. He believed that as honest, wriest interference on very learned and well-argued speech from the *hi hen,
their part would be eskulated to bring upon them a beirefac- gentleman opposite upon the question of aologowlokod
Moo from shove, end that blessedness which Providence held merit. He has argued that which I am not gel= to dig-
out as the potties of the pooosmakon on earth. (Hear.) puts, namely, that if this country thought it right to do so,

we should be perfectly justified in acknowledging the hide-
rs:deem of the Southern States, provided only that that
independence bad been, in the words which he used,
"firmly and permanently established." And, moreover,
I quite concur with him that the fact of our acknow-
ledgment of that independence, if we thought it right to
make it, would be no just cause of war on the part of the
Northern States—would be no just cause of offence on the
part of the Northern States as against this country. The
caw which the hon. gentleman cited, sod more especially ,
theme of the South American republics, were cases totally
different from that which is now presented for our con-
sideration. The South American republic was not acknow-
ledged till a great many years after they fairly achieved their
independence. The contest was begun between them. and
Spain, separated by the wide Atlantic from her revolted sub•
jests, and unable with any degree of power to re-establish her
authority over them—and I believe it was nearly 15 yew"— j
it was certainly a great many years before the acknowledg-
matt took place. (Hear, hear.) But what wee the state of
this matter till the date of those uncertain rumours which
we received this very day' It war not a fortnight ago that
it was doubtful whether the Confederates or the Federate
would be in possession of Richmond. (Hear, hear). It
wee bat • few days ego that we imagined that the whole
course of the Mississippi was in the hands of the Federal..
(Hear.) We knew that New Orleans and possibly Charles-
ton, might be in their hands. I contend that
rip to the present moment, whatever may be the
opinion which anybody may entertain of the peat
determination of the Southerne to fight till the very tut
for the maintenance of their independence, practically the
contest has not yet assumed that character which would
justify this country in assuming that that independence was
permancniay and firmly estaMithed. (Hear, hear.) Bat
then many people who talk of acknowledgement seem to
imply that that acknowledgment if made would establiNt
some different position between this country and the
Southern States. It would establish none unless it was
followed up by some direct and active interference. (Hear,
hes-.) Neutrality, as was well argued by the right hoc.
gentleman, is perfectly compatible with acknowledgement.
(Hear, hear.) We may be neutral in war between two
countries whole independence we never called in
question. Two long established countries go to war
and acknowledge the independence of both but we are
not on that account bound to take part in the contest. The
right hoe. gentleman argued that we bad taken a step
towards acknowledgment by admitting that the Southeine
had • belligerent right. Why Vette! end all the best
authorities upon the law of natione bold that when civil
war breaks out in • country that is firmly established,
other nations have a right to deal with the two parties as
belligerents not acknowledging the independence of the re-
volted portion of the country, but admitting that the war
has been established upon such a footing that each party le
entitled to be regarded by other nations as a belligerent.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore the mere fact of our having se-
koowledged that these two parties were belligerent/ ia the
proper international sense of the word does not imply a step
towards acknowledging them as independent states. (Hear.)
Nobody can for a moment be insensible to the vest import-
ance to this country of • speedy termination of the war.
We all know the privation and suffering which a great por-
tion of our population ace enduring in consequence of this
unfortunate war ; but on the other band, as has been well
put by an hon. gentleman who spoke in this debate, any
attempt to put an end to the war by active and violent
irterference would only produce greater suffering among
those in whose behalf that interfersece might be attempted.
(Hear, hear.) There is no instance in the history of the
world, I think, of • contest such as that which is now going
on in America—a contest of such magnitude between dif-
ferent sections of the same people. The 30 years'
war in Germany was a joke to it in point of magnitude.
It was only the other day I received a map drawn by the
quartermaster-general of the Federal army, in which the
pedal= of 720,000 Federal troops was marked, and now we
learn that 300,000 more are to be called into the field.
Here there are 1,000,000 of men engaged in active hortili-'
ties oe the one, and perhaps there are not very much less
on the other side. The irritation and exasperation on both
sides is admitted, and is that the moment at which it can
be thought that • successful offer of mediation is likely to
be made' (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend says be does not
care for that ; we had better offer our mediation even
though it were refused. I wish to guard myself against
anything In regard to the future. The events of the
war have been so contrary to all anticipations from time to
time that he would be a bold man who would prophecy
from month to month what character this war may assume.
(Hear, heir.) But I think the house and the country are
ofion that the government have pursued a wise sad
prudent
comae. (Hear, bear.) We should be glad to avail
00-selves of it, if soy opportunity presented itself of a fair
and reasonable prospect, that any effort on oar part might
be conducive to establish peace between thou parties who
are carrying on this desolating and 'filleting contest; but
the house, I think, had better leave it to the discretion of
the government to judge of the occasions as they arise, and
of the opportunities that may present themselves. (Hear.)
Upon that account it is that without going into any dis-
cussion of right on one side or the other—without saying
who was right or who was wrong—without expressing any
judgment on this point—because it is the business of go-
vernment to abstain from suffusing any opinioo, I say that
if at ary time we should be able by our friendly offices to
contribute to the establishment of peace, we could only do
so by presenting ourselves in the shape of impartial parties
who were not committed by the expression of any opinion
on the one side or the other, and anxious only to promote
such a settlement between the two as may be consistent
with the feelings and interest. of both. That is the only
way in which we can hope to render any service in that
matter. (Hear.) But to remain io that impartial pod-
tion, and to enjoy that condition and character, it is ne-
cessary that we should avoid pronouncing any judgments,
opinion. Therefore I have not followed the example of
those who have pronounced an opinion between the two
parties ; and therefore I hope the house will leave to the
responsible government of the country the task of judging
what can be done, when it can be done, nod how it ow be
done. ((heers.)
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said be thee wider a deeper
sense of responsibility than he did on that occasion, because
he knew that every word uttered in the debate would be
severely scanned by • community whose minds were irri-
tated and exasperated by circumstances for which there was
no parallel in history. He was of opinion that his hoe.
friend the member for Sunderland deserved praise for the
extreme caution and moderation of his reeolution, and did
not think he deserved the censure which the hon. member
for Bradford bestowed upon him for the changes which he
made in the tei ins of his resolution. Till he had heard the
speech of the noble lord be should have thought it impos-
sible for anyone to lave disagreed with the terms of that
resolution. The Coefederate States were not only under a
separate government, but they were under an established
government with a recognised president. senate, and con-
gress. They maintained themselves in the field, and had
now an army of not less than perhaps of 300,000
men. His honourable friend, therefore, was justi-
fied in asking the government to interfere in a
friendly way in favour of the recognition of those states.
These contests wore marked by a sanguniary character
such as it was impossible to parallel in modem history, and
he thought intervention was imperatively demanded to put
an end to such dreadful scenes. He believed the sacrifice
of life in the recent engagements amounted to upwards of
40,000 men. But they were told that the course proposed
by the hon. member for Suaderlard would have no effect
union followed up by forcible intervention. For his own
part he felt that • strong expression of opinion on the part
of the powers of Europe, if tendered to the people of the
United States in a friendly tone, would have the beet effect.
Of this be was cure, it the government were the first to
initiate this policy in Europe, they would have it in their
power to restore peace to those who were our kindred and
allies in the other hemisphere. At any rate those who sup-
ported the boo. member for Sunderland would have the
satisfaction of knowing that they had done their best to
pursue a course which would tend to promote the best
interests of humanity. (Hurl
The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn.
Mr. HOPWOOI) protested against the noble lord's
• attempt to stifle discussion on this important subject. He
concluded by withdrawing the motion of which he had
given notice.
Mr. LINDSAY, after a few words, withdrew his motion.
L FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES).

BILL.

Upon the motion that tbie bill be ronsidered as amended,
Sir F. SMITH =premed a hope that the discussion upon
the bill would be postponed.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he proposed to proceed with the
bill that evening.

Sir F. SMITH moved that the debate be adjourned.
The SPEAKER said that as the hon. and gnllant member
had spoken once it was not competent for him to make •
motion.
Mr. OSBORNE--Then I will move that the house do
now adjourn.
Sir F. SMITH said there were several errors in the sche-
dule which he felt it his duty to point out ; and among them
one io the very first item to the extent of 111,000/. (Hear.)
The house was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and the amendment was negatived.
Mr. HENNESSY moved the adjournment of the de-
bs.e.
Sir O. C. LEWIS said the discrepancies pointed out by
the hon. sod gallant gentleman were sot errors, and at the
proper time he would be prepared to explain and defend
them.
Sir F. SMITH insisted that the schedule was full of errors.
Sir G. LEWIS promised to have them corrected, and
consented to the adjournment of the debate.
The Parochial Assessments Bill was read a third time,
and the Charity Commisaionen Jurisdiction Bill was road a
third time and
The County on (Ireland) Bill was read • third
time and poised.
The Local Government (Supplemental No. 2) 818 was
reed • wood time.

The Copyiolric., Commission Bill was read a mooed
time.
The Excise Duties Bill was reed a third time and mused.
The Recovery of Poor Rat" ka. Bill was rend a third
time and paned._