The Express.
London, England, 1855-05-02 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P,

would take plum is ..--
lt wee proposed to despatch
Vieille?' of DERBY—I h,
boos gailty of indiscretion
intela informed°.
Clondlstor.)
Lord PANIIURB
mfosintito give details
lord. • lank.) Al'
lag to morner la .-
wm publidtmloow-o-days, lb,
speedos di•Millnittl of oar arm..
sot he poelliarosk le in omporata capacity, •
rotarmair tib Morription. These ?stunts were gas rally
oohed ter Mit Ms map Mdeseod eliciting explanations from
the rrnmememt oodt so the mils lord had jest draws from
!pl midi lord the Goamealerto-Ohist; Red he Mood,
re, that the sable lord would be mtialisd wittiest
his mottos any fortkor. TM govocomeett Mi on.
a its service every available Mean tramos" het Me
a her was still so Midmost* tarn they had hem esm
Bed to despatch to the mat if tsar sot amity • pedalo
of the cavalry, but even • mega of the infantry rein-
forcements. (Hear, hear
Tb• Earl of ELLEMBOROUGH hoped that the very
earliest possible sensation of the sailing of these naval?,
reinforcements would be conveyed to the Comminer, Gear
Zitotberwies the
ofle horses which wets le Iseregtesed
perish foe wants forage before Mop mar mot the
File lt should recollected that our MOM were Irk'
yla the desert. They must depend for nastosamo es'
ly upon the supplies tent to them ia Me dip Lead
it was • aosaparmively sem tt.ing to mom Mel dm
i Men, it was very difilcult to keep up the supply of feed he
I born,. Thaws ressforceme no would,therefore, make a maims
addition Mtha duties of the commissariat, sepeonally snoops
bad jut limn taken to supply what ought to have been Wag
ante. it pewartul lead transport corm for the perms
I mareltiatt army whenever It was thought necersary. He
fore. that information would be conveyed to
. OMMinery /hider by the earliest possible means—by
••data hisorreph. (Hear, hear.)
Lord FANMI7RE had takes care that there should be me
lack of forage. He hod given directions that so much pre-
' minder should be lauded with the troops that there midi
apt he soy ormihility of failure. (Cheers.)
Lord VIVIAN then withdrew his motion; and in answer
te a question from the noble lord,
Lord PANMURE stated that he bad that very day seen
General Searlett, who had just reversed from the CI
and that excellent officer had put down the sionber if Illa
cavalry sow at the seat of war at 1,300 men and 460 wan.
THE EXPECTED MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION/.
The Earl of DERBY observed that the noble earl the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs had bees suddenly called
from the house to attend Mr Majesty In OS pliikei
evening ; but he had understood the noble 11011111ia to sap
that in the course of this day he (Lord Clarendon) wouldho
prepared either to snake a statement, or to inform them
opus what day he should be prepared to make a statement
as to the present position of the negotiations at Vienna, sod
the present position of the allies and of Austria, with mpg
Ile the war. He (Lord Derby) bad upon two or throe emir
14Mns that evening seen the noble earl flitting through the
Ilben ; but his motions had been so rapid that he had not boon
alio to arrest his attention. (A laugh.) He wished, there-
fore, to ask the noble marquis once more, whether he could
state oa what day the noble earl would maps his state-
ment ? - - - - -

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUINDAY, MAY 1.
The Loots CHATIOSALOA took hie seat on the womb eek at
the usual koar.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Os t•.• notion of Lard RIDBODALII, the Dateley and
Midisal Reilway Bill was read a wood time.
The rollowing bills were severally read a third time and
:—Olownp Gas Bill; Moomenthibire Railway and
raZdl Bill; Sheffield Gas Bill; South Eastern Railway
La/, 061) Ball; Bridport Railway Bill; It 4teliff Gas 8111 ;
Bradford, aid Halifax 'auction Railway Bill.
FLOATING BATTERIES.
Earl TALBOT said he understood that the &Win bat-
teries ninth had recently bare eosstrseled were (morally
condemned by sant men. 111 wished op ask, who was th.i.
deafgeet of the r ropes, and whether it had been salmitted
to any Wean& man for approval; also, whet was the cost
of web if these boats, sad whether say trial had bass merle
Of their elarew ?
lord PAN SURE said thew li batteries bad been
coastructed to show the possibility .1 ' amel arma-
ments into cotton with stuns formates is was cast able
to Whom the noble lord who was the imitator of thaw hal-
terks; bat the phut bad been adopted after having tested
bye:pensions what effort a "moon: ball would have upon
an true-plate. The mows of the experimeets bees
met as to lead to the constructios of these fleeting
Melee Though Though the opiaioas referred to by the noble lord
might not be favourable, be toasted that, apes trial, thew
vessels might turn out more saccessial thee he antiethat.d.
In answer to • further question from Earl TALBOT, as to
the eonsteestioa and efficsocy of the vessels,
Lord PANMURE said these were particulars into which
be could not then enter. lie thimble hoped the sable lord
Imola nut press his qusatiow on than pasta. (Hear.)
The Eel of HARDWICKE add he had sever heard a
more unsatisfactory answer. The snort well sue of great
taterset, effecting the Wendt, side thisimweley in naval
areacesects. Ise times like the yessest, IMO end the other
boom of parliament, as well as the people at Ww, were of
newaoty eztrentsly sasious as to the sew& of W camel-
most itself. We had constrained tee Mt theme ships; and
he sneerstood that the Espana of the Emma had con-
elevated • like timber. It did set mash maim who the
designer was ; bet it did matter eateemely to the 'saws of
the country, and the success of the lbet they
should feel attain, whoever was the el egiiiss
that at alt events the science of the imentij
hisbid of
piled to the wastructios 1.1 thew wintis. Me his
boss to Woolwich to inspect tweet Ihmeships; modwit
giving the opiates of say °We poem, he d mat
hantily state his own. He patent efsmeidetration *mirth,
the Attestioa of form. Nothing eseki be more unsightly
than these vessels; if they bed ben built by the
mile or the fathom, aid then saws mender, they could not
be more shapeless. Ile entirely pat oat of sight their speed,
or say question as to locomotion ; he mull deak midi them
as floating batteries, which were about to mop* ll me..
that region the means of attack ea the Karim dertmesee.
He bad taken the trouble to measure the distant► from the
lower sill of the mid-ship port to the water line. The vessel
had nothing on beard now bat her 'seines, her empty
• boilers and her masts ; no guns so stores, ao single
thing of any diseriptioa. Wall, the lower sill of the
port was just 4 feet 6 inches from the water's edge.
The farther immersion, after the vessel received the whole of
her guns, ammunition, stores, and cargo, would not possibly
be calculated at les than one foot; that would maks the
distance 3 feet 6 inches. Be ventured to &mart that that
distance was not safe, and the vessel must have her guns
moored and her ports caulked in, secured by pitched
sums, in order to take her to the Bahia. That,
at all Events, was as widower that the application
of faience I. this caw had beea omitted. They might have
had a much bettor vessel sad • groans power of flotation
and intending to sea • proper dascriptioe of floating battery
that was • paint of great importance. For • vessel of this
dworiptioe, a diminished power of flotatipo was • great
evil Another thing was her power to Skid shot. This
might have been made a matter of sac eriment ; bet them
were soma things which struck the beholder at once as de-
fective. First of all, the iron plates were seemed to the
side of the vessel ; and every iron plate touched the other
throughout, above and below. Every me who knew any-
thing of the expansion and contraction of iron knew that,
when exposed to the sun, the expansion of iron was
enormous ; sad this would go as. These plates ought not
to have unshed ; they ought, at least, to have been tialf-an-
iseh apart, and to have Lad the intention filled ia. The
What of alt mate moan ir).l aid ociatradim would stadosb;..
edly be to lemma the plates ; and his impression was that these
pinta would hemmed and beat about in all directions. They
ought, to rudely, to have been placed at a nnall distance from
each other. Those points, as a matter ofeciesos, appeared to
have been entirely overlooked. Then as to the meats of pro-
tecting the men on board. Ile had an doubt that in the first
instance it was intended to cover the desks of thew vessels
with iron. The deck wee now nine inehse thick, but he
apprehended that findiog the power of flotation sodefleient
they bad not ventured to carry the plan through. He had
no doukt that a shall from a mortar would go right through
the deck. The men at the wheel would be exposed to fire
through a two-inch plank, • greater risk than they would
ran in an ordinary ship. There were other details, as the
means of working the cables, which showed that science
had not been properly %polled to the constriction of them
vessels. No test seemed to have been applied to ascertain
whether the beet form had been adopted. He thought the
surveyor of the navy, hod he been wasolted, would have
dented these defects. The noble lard thee referred to the
upsetting of the large ship in dock at Woolerlith, and said
that that accident had resulted from the centre of gravity
is the ship being too high. That ship had bun bought of
a shipbuilder in the river; surely the authorities ought to
have sic-ruined her power of displacement and so on. So
Mach was this chip distrusted, that it had been necessary to
pat 2.50 tons of ballast into her hold and fix it in with
asphalt.. the* displacing so much cargo.
Earl GREY regretted that subjects like this were brought
fojward is so desultory a manner, which necessarily led to
ad result. They held the government respondhle for the
coldest of the war; but to be so they mast have freedom of
aatios, and it was im:gwaihle they could have that freedom
if, while measures were 10 progress, noble lords were cot-
dewily coming down to that house to state their own pecu-
liar views. (Hear, tow.) As had been properly stated by
Lord Pawnor", he could not enter into details on this and
other soojecte without of irdiag information to the enemy,
It would be much the better coarse, if the noble lord had
any somethings to make, if he would transmit them to the
Admiralty. (Hear)
The Earl of DERBY said thew gunboats were not in
progress, but were actually complete, and open to the ia-
smetion of every one. 1 hey had cost something like
300,0001.. and it was desirable to have the °pintos of com-
petent authorities as to their construction, and their adap-
ted°e to the for which they were designed. The
noble lord (Hardwtckal bad painted out masons which led
his to fear that the coustructioa of these boats was defter
tine; sad it was most desirable that this matter should he
investigated before the government was allowed to go Over
head and heels is Impost", in cionstrasting a thing which
might tare oat to be useless. They might rely on it the
whotruetion of thew 'yeasts was perfect well known in
Reads sad that the Emperor tumid not derive from this
dimension say information whisk be did set already peaces.
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Derhy)=l,4tl:: the fears of his
noble Mead would tore out to be .
The *MOW thee dropped.
CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY BILL.
The report of amendments on this bill was received.
The LORD CHANCELLOR asked have to re-commit
this bill on the 16th Instant. • samba of amendwats had
bow introdased, which it was desirable should be cion-
sidend in the university.
Agreed to.
/HE CAVALRY FORCE IN THE CRIMEA. I
Lord VIVIAN stated coat some time ago he had given
anise that he should move for aortal& Mums relating to
the wiaforwmtnt of the cavalry I. the East ; but the noble
lord the Commander- in-Chief had informed him that he
parpreed to mod • strong squadron from each of the cavalry
regiments is this country to the sat of war, ad he had is
oons• gismo withdrawn that swim Up to
lust few
moment, however, or at last till within the few dam,
not a single regiment of cavalry bad received me word of
natio', or had been put under orders. Now, this was a
question of the utmost importance to the wellbeing of our
army ; for if oar forma semi to move from before Sebastopol,
it was mow wesatial that oar cavalry Mould be efficient.
He su,nwerd he should he told that reinforeemeata had
already been sant from India, and that others were intended
to be seat front this eoun•ry. But what he wished to ira•
mess upon the government war, the importance of despatch ;
seed ha begged to nine for • return of the member of men
and hones sent or to be sent as reliefs or reinforcements to
the woulry now in the Crimea • regiments or squadrons
frets regiments new io this cematiy to be employed which
'orgies date of stabirketion; awns of transports in
these reinforoeiseate have been or are to be sent out, stating
whether sailing or steam.
Pord HARDINOE (the Coarnander.in-Chisf) said
it was very true that upon a former mea-
sles he had bees peened by
_the noble lord for
info/mattes as to the manner ia whisk he reposed to fora
'.I
e cavalry Pros in the Wawa. It was
also hue that he had said the best al
it seemed to him at that time, would be by
mdisg
Ores tie regiments of cavalry now at the sea o yak ea,
addltioral squadron from each of the she regimen* villa
retavned at home. flunsequently he bud reseed le *kik
that • preferable plan crowd be to take inre ell ifs Ilmeas%',
moot*, and to send them out en baud M
sending pia, aqua/Irene. That had rodeo* the
sizespry-Dation of the Dike of C onto of dm=sert
of Cavalry ; and two regiment", Mold aMi
the 6th Dragoons, bad bees seleessd krrilarliellh US
twee of cavalry in the Bost at thesimiell Elie mallotei d
rather more than 1,300 urn, and OW illsoili be fadelfiled
by sh rut 700 troops. T ivo other seglawnes bad also been
ordered from ladle, and the lot of OW bad eireOly
&meet!. Those two regiments world sonienst to s bow
1,000 ram. There would thus be a cavalry Issue of ralWr
more then 3,000 men is :.I!, emissive of the twe
in this country, should they be required, ae in TdenIVIZ
you'd, The number of trained reasits saw tank
was at least one thousand, end the author rif
heroes 1,600, .- f from five to six pen old. The
-Nitwit credit was due to the other regiments for the
whim they had taken in acing m depdte, and in trebling
wends for the regiments that were abroad. (Hear, beer.
As to the mode of embarkation, It did set fall within his
depormanat Half of the recedes had Already sailed, and
the rest were under owlets. Some of the trewsiserts was
stews, has the • sew, ha mrettad to say, were salliel
'lamb
/ bat
cabal"" moue[ Igemorn wen mods, Ml'

--- •
Tha lliuquis of LANSDOWNE denied that ha bad ever
said that his noble friend would make his statement, or
• a day for it, on this evening. He agreed with the noble
earl that it was of in/mite importance that the earliest pos-
sible opportunity should be takes for it; bat he could not
undertake at this moment tomtits when the statement would
be made. (A laugh.)
Their Lordships rose at tin minutes past 6.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUISDAY, MAT 1.
The Seaman took the chair at the usual hour.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. Daet took the oaths and his mat for the county of
Dark, is the room of Mr. E. B. Roche, elevated to the
peeress under the title of Lord Pommy.
The New River Company and Trustees of the River La
Bill was read a second time.
NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. WALPOLE gave notice that on an early day la
would move an address to her Majesty praying her to duvet
such modifications to be made in the rules of the Commis
sion of National Education in Ireland with regard to ana-
vested schools as
COMMISSIO wouldipeNnder
THE IN the s
ARMY. ystem more satisfactory.
Mr. HEADLAM gave notice that on Tuesday next be
MO* Wee an cadres.. to her Majesty praying her to direst
Call doseations to be made in the regulations of the army
Wadi enable any °diner dying I active service during
Ma ameat campaign 1 bequeath the value of his coinage-
am to his family, and assuring her that the house woad
Undertake to make good any lass to the country whisk might
Mille. (Rear, bear.)
RETURNS ORDERED.
ROTS AT ALDIOIOLOT —L3III 811110tra : Copies of
rgailisation for hats at Aldenhott Of contracts. Of ad.
werillessmiat for tenders. Date of paper in which the adver-
limateat was first inserted. And date of time stipulated for
Completion of contracts
AUNT LAYAZD : Return of all nom-
alseions granted in the army since the commencement of
the wee • *wag in each case the name of the person to
whim insatedl,llas regiment, and the reasons for which
amatisainiass was granted without purchase.
Sairatare ROYAL MILITALT COLLIOIII. Mr. LAY-
AID: Return of th ae offlarc who have received certificates
at the senior department of the Royal Military College at
Sandhurst, and hove sot boon subsequently employed on
the staff of our army daring the last twenty years stating
wh'oh of the above °Sleets are on fall service, and which
are on half pay.
CsrwaAx EITA.PI.-31r. LATAILD: Return of the names
of all the officers who have been or are now employed in
any capacity on the panel staff of the army in the Crimea,
er on any private staff since the cantenermeat of the war,
Mating the dates of their commission, any past services, al
nase.maif employments on which hey may have semi
AMY Pkottosiox.—Mr. Lamm): Return et all per
insisas la the army, with and without punkas% mars Jae
ire ea dassmala el the war ; stating the eestekeeevisse
seek eft el peemetior, and time and nation a maim
Its eetheese, eel the regiment from and is ukiek the pre-
ludes Seek pee&
TELEGRAPHIC DESPATCHES.—TRE 111:11611.

Piz WARNBII ►aped that as the First Lord of the
Worm was not la his piece, the First Lord of the Ad-
Miralty woald answer the question of which he had given
Melee : whether the despatch from Lord Raglan, dated the
lilth of April, in which ►e inquired about the Sardinian
oontiagent, or may other realist despatch from Lord Raglan,
°outsized information on the state of the army or t►e
progress of the siege ; sod if so, what was the nature of that
information?

Sir C. WOOD (need he had not correctly eonveyed his
meaning on the evening before. On that, as on the former
ocessioa, he stated that no information had been received
as to the progress of the slop ; he also stated that the go-
verment woedd make public any information of interest
that they rewind. When that statement was received with
a cheer from as hoe. gentleman (he did not know why) he
repeated that the despatch conveyed ao information as to
the progress of the siege, bat simply acknowledged the re-
*sip% of another, and asked when the Sardinian contingent
would sail. Another despatch had been received that morn-
ing, dated the day before, ecstasies some lafonnatiors ; it
stated that the Russian force stationed between the Belbsk
and Mackeede's Farm bad been reinforced by two divisions ;
that was the whole of the information they had received.
Mr. WARNER said perhaps the right hoe. gentleman
would allow him to ask if the government wog, bars any
objection to eoeuaanieste to Lord Raglan the faddsat great
anxiety existed la this eouatry to receive intelligence of the
progress of the dep. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.)
ADMINISTRATION OF THE ARMY.
Mr. T. DllNCOlifill hoped the Uades-Seesstary for War
weed answer the question of which he had given motion
He understood that when the Doke of Newcastle
!Meister of War he seat a commissises composed of military
men to Paris, with the *auction of the French government,
to examine the French system of military admiaistration,
ending orders to Lord Raglan to institute similar liquifies
in the Crimes. He understood the Paris eommiseioa had
made their report ; he wished to know when that from the
Crimea might be expected, and whether there would be any
objection to lay them both oa the table ?
Mr. F. PEEL said the report from the Paris isommistioa
bad been received ; he did not thick there would be any
objection to produee it, but he would Gamer the qaestion
on a future day.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS IN GAOLS.
Mr. KINNAIRD begged to ink the looretary of State for
Home Denermeetorkether any mak had been given to
application of the Rama eMbeas-Melbeg for leave for
Insets of his denomination* to semdast the service
amordine
So the Waal of thaegssa imadis shush. in the (soh
eta
baend spina set aliall abs bed takes the
eglaiestef lbs sins, nt the suave, is to the kpkty of
a oeseplisaa mil mutt ?
Sir G. GREY bed met received any general spoliation,
as the question enemy/ to assume. He had resulted an
application timmaMlMMe catholic bishop in referees* to a
parties' 1r whom, sad a .used from priest in refeeemse to
another prises. Tbaaggieseisas wese Imessuai
gee of mews, sad isavalig Ml pales free Mag set law
days. The subjest wee amiss alma dention be wee
sea iHU to give every reassemble facility eeaeletont with the
maintenance of the prison disipline. He had act takes
the opinion of the law facers, Apr wee he aware that there
was any point on which it would be niscemary to consult
them.
THE TELEGRAPH TO THE CRIMEA.
Mr. F. FRENCH wished to knew whether the mesa.
meat had come to the &Mime that the electric telegraph to
the Odom waste be mama is ton sotosoastat sus*.

is the pro-
•N relation to
returns bed
fault of hie,
, end the de-

~.. twit the speedier cos-
_
reties of the Warne would have interfered with the work
eif tiMilegortneet; two clues were employed on them, and
he
haeifillbet would bays been ready that day, but for
Mareahmmeeef Capella
t Miles,
ittee. who was under saarainatiois
he flebutopol comm He hoped, however,
*;sersiehl be laid on the table is a day it two.
Loan Bill was read a third time.
THE VIENNA CONFERENCES.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to ask a question of the Fiat Lord
eAthe Treeney. He was not in the house whoa the noble
laid gave Messmer to the right hon. gentleman opposite,
la boa what he had seen in the papers, it did not appear
be very distinct or satisfactory. He did not pat
speedos for the purpose of embierausing the gownm.
t; the noble lord knew he bad been very Wed
the last month or sin weeks. (Laughter.) There wen
eemy gnat anxiety on this subject, a proof of it was the MIS
morket had got up an or seven shillings a quarter. (Quire
WW) Ho wished to know would the noble lord promise at
wine early date to let them know distinctly what were the
elms offered by her Majesty's government in conjunction
with the French government, to the Russian government;
NI also tell them distinctly what the Russian governesses
1 hetlaated a willingness ea their part to accept, and what
OW Sums they intimated a willingness to propose on their
WA He wanted to know the exact distance between the
OW aired on one aide and offered or intimated on the
Aar, that.the louse and the country might know ezactly '
what they were going on with a prolonged war far. There 1
Weld be no objection to the production of this information,
Wine they were connected with some negotiations still
on ea. He did not awn to press the noble lord to make
oily statement at that moment, but only to say when he
would give the information required. (Hear, hear.)
'Lord PALMERSTON believed that if the hoe. gentle—
ma bad been in the house the night before he woald have
Neal that his question had been substantially answered.
lie bed stated it wee the intention of her Majesty's govern-
able. belay on the table at the indica opportunity the pro-
be& ef the conferences at Vienna, which would be found
W seem all the information required.
Mr. BRIGHT believed that the protocols did not allude
ee We ammater propositions.
kei PALMERSTON thought they would be found to
aslala all required. His noble friend the Secretary for
reedit Affairs was pressing the preparation of the papers
as feet as possible, and he believed they would be laid on
We table in a few days.

THE MAYNOOTH GRANT.
Oa Mr. SPOONS& rising to bring forward his motion
considerable confusion was created by a large cumber
of honourable members jumping up at the same moment
to present petitions.
Mr. SPOONER had ones more—(laughter)—to bring this
very important question under their consideration ; en the
settlement of it depended the safety of the orowo, the stabi-
lity of the empire, and the happiness of the people. The
question was, were they to maintain inviolate the protestant
constitution ? The greatest danger to that constitatios
arose from their attempts to conciliate those who would not
be conciliated unless they gained ascendancy. The hones
had heard the declaration that the Roman catholic,' Mali
net be contest with toleration, sad that nothing would
satisfy them salmi the Roman catholic church was
fiend on the same footing as the established church of
Beefed and Ireland. It wee objected that the present
was not a proper time to bring forward his motion ; hut
this was a religious, net a political question; the endowment
Of Maynooth was a national sio, which had drawn down on
them the judgment of Almighty God, and they ought not to
persist in a sin for one moment. Another objection was
that be ought not to proceed at a moment when the Roman
estholics were fighting so bravely side by side with nro-
testants. (Hear, bear.) Were hon. gentlemen aware that
the question of the right claimed by the Pope to exercise
engreenacy wee creating great jealousy in France ? He bad
Ward that fact from a quarter on which, it he were per-
mitted to mention the name, the house would attach the
highest importance. The Archbishop of Paris had at pre-
sent a quarrel with the Pope on the subject of that most
manstrou of all monstrous doctrines—the Iroussoulate Con-
ed the Virgin Mary. There was as much jealousy
illkair:Ance in coasequenos of the assumptions of the Po as
there was in this country, and upon that ground he had no
bar of exciting any ill feeling on the part of our allies.
(Hear, hear.) They had generously acted upon principles
which would protect the week against the strong—princi-
ples which would eventually restore peace to Europe ;
and they would be deterred from that object by no such
fears as those which had been alleged to exist. Then he
was told that he ought not to bring on this motion at: this
particular time on account of the feelings of the brave
Roman esthetic soldiers who were flghtisg our battles in
the But. Would the house by entertaining this motion do
anything to aggravate their feelings ? He maintained that
they would not. Many of those *oldie's were Eames
entholies it was true, but they were loyal subjects. (Hear,
hear.) They were sound, good, loyal subjects, and if the
house would abstract them from the dominion of the priests
and set them free from superstitious influences, they would
rejoice as much as protestano themselves, and so far from
feeling offended at the withdrawal of the grant from May-
oath would rejoice that the dominion of the prises was at
a end. He would trust them to the fullest extent, he would
never believe that they would be swayed from their duty
Zaly such mean and paltry consideration. What did
hon. gentlemen mean who said the present
mee ma the time for bringing forward this motion. because
SIONNI catholic soldiers were at present engaged in fighting
kr ear HOU? Did they mean that they should wait until
the fight was over? If that were their intention he
would ask whether that was good faith ? Would they con-
geal their intentions until they had gained a victory, and
Mesa introduce a measure which was alleged to be so highly
eliltellessable to them ? That was not the way he liked to
paned, tied for himself he would rather be honest and slo-
ths*, telling them that as protestant' they could no longer
arks ispent for those idolatrous and superstitious—
Mr. PAGAN roes to order. The Speaker himself tad
Mid down the rule that any language which was offensive to
the religious feelings of any member of the boon should be
elasidered unpa•lianientary. lie submitted that the words
Malmo and superstitious were not words such as should
he used.
' The SPEAKER said that in debates of that kind affect-
flag tie religious opinions of a great number of member*, it
*se very desirable, however freedom of debate might be
Weed, to abstain from any expressions of an irritating clut-
thaw: (Hear, bear.)
Mr. SPOONER said he would at ones submit. He
meld not use thee* words, but he might say tbst in the
Miele. of the thatch of Eoglaad they were expressly em-
ployed in reference to the celebration of the mess. He
would use ether words. (" Hear, hear," and ironical
laughter) Did hon. ntlemen mean to say that he was
not to use any words? (Renewal laughter.) In the
coronation oath, the doctrines to which he had objected
were called " dangerous fables." (No, no.) Well, if that
was not the suet expression, it was something very like it
—" dangerous theeits"—he thought those were the words
-I-(no, no)—" dangerous doeteines," then—he knew if those
were not the enact words, those used were quite as strong,
but he had not the oorenation oath with him. (Loud
laughter.) The next objection made was that this motion
would lead to a breach of faiths—a breach of compact. It
was said that an institution had been made, and that the
house had no business to interfere with it. He denied that
position in Coto, for there never was a compact. There
was anything to bind the lease to oontionethe grant. It was
a free grant, and in consehnenos of it no sacrifice wen made
by the Roma cathollis. • When parliament made grants
merely from free will, without any person whatever being
called upon to pay, or to make any sacrifice by way of con-
sideration, that grant parliament was perfectly free to with-
draw. (Hear, hear.) On that subject he would quote the
opinionsof ope who** mumey was highly respected in that
house, and whose opinions were always listened to with the
attention they deserved. On the 3rd of April, 1845, Sir
Hobert Peel said, "Itis a measure, I trust, conceived in
the spirit to which I have referred—a liberal and confiding
spirit. We are not introducing it after communication with
the leading oimlesiastical authorities of the Roman catholic
elkarch ; it has not been a subject of stipulation or of con-
tract with them. We are prepared in a liberal and confiding
spirit to improve the institution, to elevate the character of
the education supplied. Aced by improvement I do not
n*ean to imply any each interference in the course of edu-
cation as would effect • total thugs, but that we should
treat that institution in a generous spirit, in the hope
that we shall be met in a corresponding spirit,
that we shall be repaid /se OW liberality by assuring a more
liberal system of instretetios." That was a declaration of
that right hen. gentleman who bas the conceding party to
the grant. He (Mr. Spenser asked every man who had held
office under her Masijeekki ernment since that grant was
made, or who h had thirg to do with elections in
wissim
Inland, how those bad hoes enewered. Had
the views been fulfil elerke which the peat was made?
He seateaded that it had entirely failed, and that it had
besought about wholly Stlereat results gm thou which had
Um anticipated, under which einamelmeas the metre"
if there had been one, would have a• 00.0 Yom in the
miend. The noble lord at preemie the flownesew he the
Weeks had Imeasquely clear a Oh quills. Ossetia*
On April 3,154 h, he seek " I do not mesa Is inquire into
the question el esatnet, or whether ft weld be a wise sad
snt sec to gem suddenly, tad deism that you will
aka no fortieth sluice 10 'dosage the prints of the
Ithean Dahlias rapes, but at the Nose time I will say
=a yea fined that it was doles that which wasme-
te the amamity, sad that the religions steeples
ig dm osmopeni, maid not ,ellow the seadathaes of this
peak le Intik Sipa* *MVO al MNIIIIIIIIIII gums

rs;--
you foetid that these you meant to be teachers of religion their books. Heil; said the hon. member), were the
had become She *dere and condoners of rebellion, there is Emilia govermana end people endming a college, the
thee ground entifilent te refuse this grant—then I say that studies of which were mutated by a foreign minden, and
-these is oc, valid
be so sinuous yoo—no name why the , the students of which look .d to Rome, not to Ragland, for
house should not be justified is &seining that no tertber the selection ot tam honks. He called on hon. members to
grant should be given." Leaders of rebeilion! Distarbere !read the evidence for themselves, tied then to say whether
of the public pars! Let hon. gentlemen look to their • they would costume t i support this vote. Let them con-
elections, and say whether the noble lord's words did not ; eider that the !siesta true tesehing the doctrines of Rome
strictly apply to the Roman catholic priests. On the 'who- Ito the Peopte, and ants especially as regarded the rite of
rity therefore of Sir Hebert Peel and the noble lord the i marriage, teaching them among other things that no
member for the City of London, he stated that a deep I heretical marriage carried the right of succemion along with
seated feeling on the part of the community at large celled lit. He asked the house to gee him leave to bring in a bait
for a rimed
oftit meat, and upon that stoned he appea.ed ! which should withdraw the indeed support from an insti-
to the hetoS ea support the motion for repeal. H in. gen. I tution witch, In his opinion. taught ooctrines so cojectiois
tlemen would, in all probability, soon have to
-meet their able. The bill would provide that the students in the
constituents, and they might depend twig it that the most college at the time of its peeing thould receive their present'
important question which would be put to them would have a lawancee to the end of their terms ; and also that while
reference to this question of Maynooth. (Hear, bear.) teaching these remaining students, the professors should ',-
Surely he had sufficient ground fur saying that there has Lain their salaries. This might be objected to on the
been no contract, and that mini( there had, the house was high ground of principle, but previous legislation
justified under the circumstances In breaking it off. He had left him no alternative. With that exception
would now proceed briefly to the oonaidet tains he would propose to withdraw all corporate power, but that
of the comnsimloners' report, through which he: the present corporation should have the power to deal with
had carefully waded. He bad had valuable as- ' the property of the c 'liege as trustees. Having cautioned
einem who had set with him hour after hour extracting the house against permitting an institution to continue, the
points from the evidence, endeavouring to get at the real function of which was to destroy the established church,
truth of the matter, and he said, without h. sitation, that the hon member proceeded in an indistinct tone to address
the report was a complete sham, and a complete deceit. himelf to the Romeo catholic members present lie re-
Three years ego he asked for inquiry; after that he did not winded them of the promises made at the time of the
renew the request, because he thought that all his state. Ira incipation Bill, and expressed bit conviction that we
menu to the bone* had been fully borne out by the fas., enlightened Roman catholic believed the pernicious dow
and because he felt convinced that no commission would be trines taught et Maynooth. The truth was that theynag be
by - '1
e match for the jesuitry of Maynooth. In alluding to the lined teat everything was properly maed
report, be would first advert to that most unwarrantable their prelates, see gave themselves no trouble to inquire 1
proceeding, which the noble lord at the head of the govern- into the d ctrines taught in the books. He mould, from his'
went bed admitted, that the evidence taken before her Ma- own knowledge, say this much of the Boman catholic
jesty's commissioners was sent to Dr. Cullen by cue of the 'undies of Warwickshire, amongst whom he lived, sad
commissioners, and by Dr. Cullen to It mI
e, without the whine he knew to make some of the best magistrates and
consent of the other commissioner', and teat it was delayed landlords in the county But such were not the men who
at Rome for mouths, so •bat while the house was antique to had been sent by the Eurincipetion Bill to that bones ;on
knew the remit of that inquiry, while ;nudism at was kept the courts', they were, as a body, the nominees of t. a ,
in ignorance Rome was gratified ; the evidence was known priests, and bound to obey the behests of the sacerdotal body 1
to the nahorities there, and it was known also that the in everything These were the men wild had friqu. nay
report was cooked to make all things pleasant. That was a stated that they would never be content while the estanished
moot unconstitutional proceeding, and he trusted that church remained in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He warned
the government would -feel it to be its duty to the house that if these men were not restraint d, they
refer such a breach of confidence to the law officers would persevere until the pr itestant institutions of this
of the Crown. It would be tampering with the country hsd been destroyed by their machinations. He did
feelings of the people if they allowed such a eircumetence not expect many more opportusities of addressing that
to go without inquiry ; indeed there was a time when a house on this subject. His age rendered the disclaimer of
government so peetectiat its duty would have been ins. ambition unnecessary; his only waive was his duty to God
peaehe& Was the noble lord at the bead of the govern- and his country, and the responsibility which rested on all
mcnt aware, that in a return made by the officers of the who, like him, had carefully studied this question. He
college, and published as an appendix to the commissioners' looked upon this state support of popery as a national sin,
report, there were given in full the territorial titles of the and be trembled on the brink of that precipice to which the
Roman catholic bishops? One was described as the Arch- conduct of their rulers was bringing the nation. He had
bishop of Armagh and Primate of all Ireland, while Dr. now done, he believed, his duty, and should therefore not
Cullen was described as the Apostolic Legate of the Pope, apologise for having detained the house, but he would thank
in complete defience of the act of parliament which bar the house for the attention with which it had listened to him,
Majesty's government brought in, and in which the whole and at the same time he begged to repudiate the intention
of that home, with very few ezeeptions, concurred. In of wounding the individual feelings of any honourable
direct opposition to that act, a report appeared with all the member. The honourable member oonclnded by mum':
territorial tiles in full, and apparently under the sanction " That this house do resolve itself into a committee, for the
of the commiseionen; but he was authorised by the Earl of purpose of considering the acts for the endowment of the
Harrowlry to say that thou titles were not in the evidence C Mega of Maynooth, with a view te the withdrawal of any
nor in the report as drawn no by the eommetaioners. How endowment out of the consolidated fond, due regard being
these titles got into the report it was not for him to say ; but bad to vested rights or interests."
he contended that it was the duty of her Majesty's stomas Mr. DUNLOP seconded the motion, but at the same time
meat to bring the offender to justice. If the noble lord disclaimed ray intention on the part of the people of Scot-
wooed not enter upon the inquiry, he booed the house land of curtailing the civil liberties of the Roman Catholics,
would take the matter in hand. The honourable while they sought to deprive them of a atollndowment
member then referred to a list of the bisholes for their religion. The people of Sco had op-
educated at Mayarioth, which appeared in page 133 of the posed the regimes doossna as much as they now
h op.
report. The fint objectionable name on the list was that posed Maynooth, and were equally ready to oppose te
of "The Most Reverend Paul Callao, Apostolic Legate of maintenance of the established church in Ireland.
the Pope." In the premises of the flat lawyers of the He objected to the Maynooth endowment on another
country he (Mr. Spooner) contended, that that was a ground, that while it stood we were not safe from the further
defiance of the law, and if the Attorney -O I and step of the endowment of the Roman catholic church, and
the law officers had done their duty, that ethaniestie would he objected to ell church endowments as tieing subversive
not have been allowed to remain in the country assuming of inoependence and free action of the church. The endow-
that titre. (Hear, hear.) Another was the name of " His runt of Maynooth was indefensible in itself, inasmuch as
Grace the Moat Reverend Joseph Dixon Archbishop of it was the endowment of error. He believed it would
Armagh and Primate of all Ireland " That' was a report be for the good of Inland that there should be no
made by the suthorised officer of the college to the principal state endowment ; but let them deal with one thing at a
and muggers of that institution, and he thought it was time Let them put an end to the endowment of Maynooth,
very well worthy of the attention of the government. Re- and he had shown that he should not be reluctant to go
(erring to the evidence of the Rev. John O'Hanlon, the hen. further. (Hear.)
gentleman said the following question was put to him: Mr. POLLARD URQUHART admitted that it wee an
Perhaps you can state what number of bishops of the I.,
Gnome y for • protestant state lice that of England to
Roman catholic church in Ireland have been put on the
„ Dr. s
endow • it noun catholic college, but it had arisen out
Dunboyne estsblishment ?" and his answer was—
of a still greater anomaly, the maintenance by the state
Dixon, Archbishop of Armagh," adding the names of f a protestant established chetah in a country where
several other bishops, with their territorial titles. He con- five .x• h,.
tended that in the event of any disputed succession to the t.• of the inhabitants were Roman esthetics.
(Hear, hear.) lie reminded the house that the en-
throne of England, these concessions would be most du- nutmeat of Maynooth had originated in a desire ft
game% and that, therefore, the strong hand of the law conciliate the Irish people, when in 1795 the successes
should replicas them. There was another paper that had of French arms bad caused some alarm in the minds
come into his pusessios, bearing upon this matter. It was
of the English government. The augmentation of the
anonymous, but
he was assured that it proceeded from a gen- grant in 1846 was consequent upon the alarm thew.
Oman of high respectability. It was unseught for, unasked
coned by the monster meetings, and he asked, would
for by him. It was a proof
of the evi "dence, given for um
it be wise now, at • time when we were engaged
notion ;not a revise ; 'but the revision els revise, in which
in a war with a powerful enemy, to irritate the public
those territorial titles were ineerted—a circumstauce which mind of Ireland, and raise up a spirit of discontent which
called for severe punishment at the ha: ds of the govern- might net only interfere with the progress of recruiting is
sent, it the offender could be detected. He (Mr. Suoner) Ireland, butrequire perhaps an army of 30,000 men to main.
regrelted to sty that no commissioner was placed upon that tain tranquility there. He bad intended to move as an
commission who was not known to be in favour of May
amendment that the subject of the ecclesiastical domination
nootb. Lard Harrowby wee a most respectable nob emaa, of the established church in Ireland should also be taken
hut it was well known that he was opposed to the with•
into consideration ; but under all the einumetances tie
draws' of the Maynooth grant, and some one should have should not prey that motion ; but he should effer hie
been sent with him who entertained opposite opinions. Dr, decided oppositioa to the motion of the hon. member for
Twin was a gradation in whom every confidence could be Warwickshire.
placed, but he, too, it was known, held the same opinions
as the noble lord. He thought ern very constitution of the Mr. SCHOLEFIELD rose to move the amendment to
commisiton appointed by a government itself in favour of Mr Spooner's motion of which he had given notice, via.—
Maynooth, tbrew • halo round the report, which rendered .' To leave out all the words after the word' considering,'
it a complete deception. He received it without any and to insert ' all grants or endowments for ecclesiastical
I oanfidence, but he found enough in it to show Purposes, whether charged on the Consolidated Fund or an-
that the teaching of Maynooth was the same as molly voted by parliament, with a view to their withdrawal,
it was when he first drew the attention of the house due rogord being had to vested rights or interests.' "
to the subject, that ultramontane doctrines were taught, He said that it might have been thought, after the report of
and hat Gallican views were day by day declining. the commissioners appointed to inquire into the teaching of
In the case of the Rev. Mr. Flanagan nine questions were the college of Pdaynooth, they might have been spared say
impressed into one. His evidence given was garbled with more of these painful discussions. But those who thought
a purpose. The object was to prevent the public from so had so notion of that sleepless bigotry which was ever
knowing that a job was being perpetrated by the authorities on the watch, and of which his hon. friend, the member for
at Mammoth for the purpose of Petro
Rooms catholic North Warwickshire, was the ever ready and willing in- I
tethers and publishers. (Hear.) Much of the evidence strum. nt, and which he (Mr. Scholefield) believed could
was in the hands of those who gave it for months before the sever be satisfied till it had brought every faith within the 1
report was published to
sty wo
rm After such facts as these limits of its own wretched sectarianism. (Hear,
beeamiag known could any credence be given te the report ? hear.) He held in his hand a production called
(Hear, hear.) He (dr. Spooner) had =endued the matter " Ten Fasts from the Maynooth Report," which bad i
to Lord Harrowby, who bad informed him that mach of this no doubt been sent to other members by the Protestant I
evillest. Was left in the handset the secretary of the con. Alliance. The title implied that the facts were taken from
missies foe weeks. With these fleets staring them in the the report itself, and not culled out of the evidence. The
thee mild the house come to an other conclusion than that first tact was that the plea of poverty for the endowment
farther inquiry ought to be made P If such did not take was untrue. He turned to the evidence to see by whom the
phase commissions one tawdry would speedily became mere statement had been made, and he found it to be the BAT.
toren. la 1852 he had liked for inquiry ; since then he bad Dennis Bruhn. Who was he ? and why was he the Mil-
pirson who brought an utionlagainst the president
again and again touched upon the matter, but no informs. vidusl Monad by the Protestant Alliance ? Why, he was
don had been afforded him. He had charged the authori she
ties of Maynooth with having and using hocks of an object of Maynooth for • rose beenOnd eelowtoleue libol-
.l6thable character. The possession of these books was not No matter what may have the libel, yet he
denied, bat it was said they were not used in the college, was not the man whose evidence the Protestant
that students were not taught from them, hut they were Alliance should have selected. In the paper to which be
only regarded as books (Ardennes. But he (Mr. Spooner) had alluded, it was stated that the oath of allegiance was
knew well that the fast was that upon these very books avoided in various ways by the students. There wy not a
word of that in the report of the commissioners; but the
legions were founded. One of these vt say authors treated
M the force of oaths, and us
d. stated that in a good observations were wide by three other gentlemen, one of
Mithe egaivocation might be used. With such sanction from whom was the Rev. Daniel Leahy, *who was educated at
Maynooth, who was now superintendent in London of the
the authorities of their own eburch no one could depend
upon statements made by the men, and nothing but the most Society for Missions to the Roman Catholics; the second
was the Rev. Dennis Braisbie i and the third, Mr.
rigid examination meld elicit the truth. He would
next proceed to say twit • very few words upon • matter Burke, a convert to protestantism. (Hear, hear.) He
did not say that a convert to protestantians would
into which be always entered with so much pain, that
not tell the truth, but he would say that the evidence of
nothing but absolute necessity would induce him to refer to
it. It was, however,
theimpossibl to treat this question fairly such perms was not that which should in fairness have
been selected. It was asserted also that the report of the
or usefully without noticing e immoralities which were to
commissioners with regard to the inculcation of loyalty was
be found in works auctioned, nay approved by the Roman
logbona priesthood. g, the ant plan, ha mot weir to a only sedative ; but he had shown that the commissioners
per which he hallooed bad been Nat to every member of stated that they would be doing injustice to the college if
that house, which was fall of the most disgusting Minima- they did not say that the result of the whole of the evidence
was that loyalty was inculcated. When his hon. friend
hr. ; and he thought it right to himself and to those who
felt and acted with him te disclaim all knowledge of a pani. talked of the Jesuitism of Roman catholic*, be must say that
eipation iii so disgraceful a production. Immediately upon he w a more remarkable instance of Jesuitism in
receiving the paper to width he alluded he had applied to the protestant church. (Hear, hear.) What was the
the leaders of the two associations, the "Protestant ground of his honourable friesd's argument? If it
Association" and the "Protestant Alliance," and asked was the teaching of disloyalty and morality, he would
whether any of their body or of those under them had fall back on the report of the commissioners ; but his bon.
dared to publish so repulsive a statement. He rejoiced to friend went further, and said that the Roman catholic reli-
be able to say that their reply was most satisfactory, and gion was taught at Maynooth. It was absurd to say that
that so far as these two associations collectively were eon. parliament did not know that the Roman catholic religion
turned no blame whatever existed. Who was the author he was to be taught when they granted the endowment i
(Mr. Spooner) did not know. Every endeavour had been acd what his hon. friend must show was, that the Roman
made by him and by others to discover the parties impii. catholic religion practically tended to national deterioration.
cated, but he regretted to say that those efforts had not Show him a single instance of the rights of English.
been suecesaful. Bat he had also examined the details men beisg jeopardited by the Rieman catholic, and he
of this statement, with the authorities from which would joie in the passing of the moat stringent law for
they were extracted, and he had found them to be putting down such an attempt. He was afraid, however,
earner. Now, every one must feel disgust at reading those that they would have to come to the conclusion that his
things, bat they were all in the books, although not in the hon. friend was not contending for civil rights or religious
was not the place to discuss religious principles. What was
themealar teams, which were used at bisynooth. Ought liberty, but for what he called religions principle, That
the house te permit such a state of things to continue ? It
meld be failing in its first duties if it did not interfeth in truth to him might be error te another man ; and if so.
a goat decisive and speedy meaner. He would not, how- what was the valid authority to decide between them
thee, detain the Mar upon this part of the subject, but lie knew of none, nor of any man capable of
gam at cos to the question of the seamy of the conies- doing so, and least of all those gentlemen frees
awl. Now, it wee laid down in a work of high authority whim speeches and publications it would appear that
*mega Roman enhance, that what was said in the ems. they had every chapter and verse of Scripture is their re-
theeload ought to be kept secret, even although the fate oollection, except that which declared that above all thi s
of nations should bang upon P. 'This deetrine was also was charity: (Hear, hear.) Be (Mr. Sitholefield) was not
laid down in the becks used at Maynooth—(bear, hear)— the apologt it of the church of England. It had its errors ;
and one more subversive of every tree principle of but at all events the high of En
training of its pro•
debt or morality it was impassible to conceive. The femora kept them free from the taint of a narrow and
ems denial of priadple was apparent in the doctrine Illiberal mind. But he was sorry to semthat even is the
of the Romish church with regard to the temporal church of England then was a growing spirit of resistance
Mewls of the olthrels. It was true that they Were to the rights of dissenter', the emancipation of the Jews
'ready to declare that the Pops ought to have no temporal and a desire to run down not only the Roman catholic+,
power, but even on their own showing they a• tat upon very bat some of the most eminent members of the
different assumotioas. Dr. O'Henton admitted that the church of England itself. The bon. gentleman then
I distinction between temporal and spiritual affairs was often read an extract from a pamphlet published by the Protest-
eery nice in its ehumeler, and often very troublesome gun. ant Alliance, purporting to be an Mims of the lime Rebut
tithe antes is regime to it. Another point to which he Seymour, at Bath, is wVele, speaking of the Roman cab°.
within% to call atesallen was that serious charges bad been Ile colleges in hilted, be said be thought they had got nig-
gligiesed orailiere efttsrmilhedi boaareasminWstrldti., Ovoinalgdftuhlel details,elgy cgw.anstt "stusdeeantitson, albe wf"onlidtimsi
drpasiossponses st the shmeskp td Illitzt, reerhiiiit :Len:
member
rsisir similar re?, siug.ptgststitft thsefy
Feraarsisteds a parish priest, they could
"thveey mighti Pllas"avei;Saanadareel'efie
; . if they vatted an tulle
pt he mp_hpe_
Wed to the en of ea& and obligations, quoting deacon, they might have Dr. Denison ;if
ippoppLigsseipasted
phippappother
pc
opirdislassapplepop, andipoardtithogiippourpopp‘pdt the ob.
the
Idiiiansisittpdy, they might
bmilighshpt.
la mg oridomm Meer belline lie Karoo* selimnissisa re- Datord. or Henry of Exeter. (H
ipsog the wogs mob ga, gasp, Some mac% be gag, was glad that the meal gloominess of them: hear.)
tinge al
Walessteriniallalliaiesiikellailli=reallmeniime
issiectrihrtelearo etbanthe
view
berelirsevredssriedthetsjimeenesy
as:evoke( thwisugancanlieedtaanss; haus° - Law.:
takes by the Isms. WOUND amt. With rapist to the the members of the church of England tort* aelsa7 any
-
Index BansegMorlus, it smeared that the witnesses son- he would nth* 'Para that reverend gentlemann '-
al tared it so ad imindisg in liaised, batthat still the Romish Maeda, and, to Imo his own phrase, he would havaend ob.
clergy felt veil 11111111 hawsesd by it Is the teloottos of Iwitonalito4row in his beg. Mead the somber have no
bear." sad laughter)—rathes *as loss say

of the eminent persons who had bees named. He would say
let the dissenters beware how they trusted this section of
the church, who were not more inveterate against the Romig
eatholia than they were against the rights of dinenters.
the grant to Mrywooth was to be removed, and he was es
favourable to it as his hon. friend, for it was en anomaly
and part of au erroneous system, yet if it was to be re.
snored there was only one fair and honourable wig og
doing it, and that was by the sweeping away of all linalogoge
endowments.
Mr. MURROUGII urged that the report of the eorg.
missionen disproved the charges of immorality m►de against
the teachers of Maynooth —denied that, considering the
peculiar circumstance of Ireland, the power of the priesthood
was an unmixed evil—denounced the established church in
Ireland as an evil which if the Irish members had done theie
slaty would bag ago have been carted away as so auk
rubbish—and conciuded by strongly urging that the poet.
don of affairs in this country, her alliance) with three
Roman catholic states, end the Lecessity for the
assistance of the Irish people in fighting the battles of Eng.
lend would tend greatly to the assertion of the rights of
the Rom.* eatbolirlot that country.

Ile. J. A. SMITH said he could not believe the Roman
catholic church was es poor as had been pleaded, liaise it
was able to erect, in London and elsewhere, such usagaills
cent edifloes. He coutended that the act o( 1815 had not
answered its purpose as a measure of couciliatton ; for the
papal aggression had occurred since then; and the Roma
catholic clergy of Ireland had not become more moderate,
mo a friendly to the constitution. Ho supported
Spooner's motion.
Mr. BLAND observed that this was not a propitious time •
to designate as idolatry the faith of those naticus to whole
we were in active alliance. He disapproved of the maasse
in which the evidence had been quoted and commuted
upon by the hon member for North Warwickshire, with Imo
candour than might have been expected from a religious
mai speaking in that house. The amendment of the hon.
member for Birmingham did not, however, go far enough
in the principle of religious equality, f it only related to
endowments granted by parliament. lie should be glad it
his Roman Catholic brethren were in Fisch a position as to
be able to do without this grant, betause, if they gave it up,
they would have a stronger case against the established
church; but as t...eir church was not rich enough to dispels,.
with this endowment, he would support the continuance of it.
Mr. UDR:WALL agreed in the opinion of the right hon.
member for Oatord, in that work of his, which wall pub.
fished a few years ago, in which he said that the grant to
Maynooth was vicious in principle, and that it would be a
thorn in the sides of the people of this country so long as it
was suffered to continue.
Mr. HORSMAN hoped he might nay, without any dis-
respect to the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that
he did not ihiok the statement he had made Lad any bear.
ing on the question. They were not there to discuss the
morale or the tendency of the Roman catoolie religion. The
hon. gentleman had quoted certain statistics for the pupas
of showing that in the Roman catholic countries there wee
au amount of crime and immorality which was cot to be
found in protestant countries. He bad put entirely out of
sight what might be the government of those countries and
what might be their police, but merely because in lonian
countries where Ronan catholicism was most prevalent
crime was most prevalent he had drawn an swami nt, which
be (Mr. lineman) thought was not condo lye, ag.onst the
Roman catholic religion. He differed from the hon.gentlerma
in thinking that this was a religous question. He telt thatet
was a political question, and • political questigunoenruly..,DThetof
establishment of Maynooth bed a far deeper um on policy than
the quieting of the people of Ireland. It was welt known
that the Roman catholic priests exercised the greatest is.
fiuence over their flocks, and it was with a view of
enlisting that influence on the side of the e,
this country that Maynooth was established. (Hum
The question of the abolition of the graot was brava J
before parliament in 1808, and what was the lupus
used by Mr. Perceval on that occasion? lie .414
that as the Irish parliament had thought each s
immure desirable, he should not disturb it, la.
deed, he thought that the united parlism Jnt was bound
in good faith to maintain the grant. (Hear, hear.) la
1812 Mr. Percoral repeated the Fame sentiments,
question remained so till 1845, when it was again brought
before parliament by Sir R. Peel, and what was his rola
of argument? He said, if you grant your money forth
suppott of Maynooth, you ought to grant enough to keep
it in a state of comfort and respectability. He raid that yes
should either abolish the grant altogether, or increase it to
such an extent as would place it in the position in which it
ought to stand. In order to show the principle on which the
increase of the grant was made, he would quote the opinion
J of one of the colleagues of Sir R. Peel at that time—tins
opinion of the Lord Stanley ct that day, to whom the bill
was entrusted in the House of Lords. His lordship made
such a powerful aid exhaustive speech in favour of the bill
en that occasion, that he was sure the house would pardon
him if he read a somewhat long extract from it. (Hear,
hear.) The right hon. gentleman quoted the speech of
' Lord Stanley, on introducing the bill into the House of
Lords, in 184 i, to the effect that the question which that
house war called on to decide was this, that seeing Roman
catholic priests must be in Ireland, whether tiJoy would
have them ie.atructed or ignorant, well affected or the con-
trary to the government of the country. (Hear, hese.) He
would now repeat what he said before. He ws.uld not sek
if there was a contract regularly agreed to on both sides.
He would rest the case on material facts end not on mere
intentions; and he would ask the house in what light it
would be viewed now, if, after the existence of the grist for
60 years, it were at this time to withdraw it. (Hem,
hear.) Were they prepared to the policy mussed
for so many years back ? This, however, was not a solitary
instance of payment to the Roman catholic religion.
They made parliamentary grants to many religions otbet
than the established, to dissenters, to Roman catholic*,
and even to some who did not come within the denomius
Hon of Christian. They supported catholic schools and
paid catholic chaplains in the army and in the navy, for the
prima, and for the workhouses. (Hear.) The money paid
out of the Consolidated Fund was not money taken from
protestants and given to Roman catholics, it was money
contributed by all the subjects of the realm, and devotedto
education on the ground that the state was bound to give
all children such a moral and religious education es
would best conduce to the welfare of the state. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman wished to be retrogressive in his
policy ; but since 1829 the whole policy of this constry
ad been progressive. Measures in favour of catholics had
been passed in 1831, '32, '36, '4O, and '45. when Maynootk
was endowed by the bill of Sir Robert Peel. Why had
this been done? Because the catholics had obtained their
constitutional rights by the voice of their fellow subject,,
and had thus compelled °se concearion atter another.
Hence the principle was that the national religion of Ire.
land had been recognised, and had been made the care of
the state. The fact was that religion must be considered
j not as a sectarian, but as a national affair. He objected to
the term " toleration." (Hear, hear) In Reglad the
majority were protestants, in Ireland the majority were
catholics. The majority of the whole were protestanu ; bet
taking all Europe the majority were cath,lics. (lean:hest)
What was to be done . Were the two faiths to
jbe placed in constant hostility ? They bad tried this up to
1829; and since then the policy of concession had byes
tried with the utmost benefit at every step. (Hear, hem)
The people of Ireland were equal in numbers to those of
many of the catholic states of Europe; and what people
had passed so nobly through suffering, and displ-yed
much virtuous forbearance (Hear, hear.). In everything
that dignified human nature—in bravery, fortitude, and
endurance—they were entitled to rank with ourselves.
(Cheers.) How absurd then to talk of toleration with re-
hyenas to such a people. (Hear, hear) Allusion had bees
made to the influence of the priests in Ireland ; but it should
be renesenbessed that they felt with the people and for flu
people. In no other country bad the pri.sts been to much
identified with the people. They could not say that the law
or the government had been the friends of the people; fat
they bad only known lawn government by their severity.
But the priests had been attached to end Weeded
with their flocks,_ and had done their duty soasam
tiously. (Hear, hear.) While adhering to and c
the faith in which he had been brough up, he ay=
with every faith and every man who was the
of
oppression. (Cheers.) So far from apologising
comae he took, he thought it was the duty of Mr. Sunset
and his friends to apologise for the course they went:o4l
they were using their faith ss a means of Miloting injustice
(Hear) While *iodic/stag the right of free mdfrieses_
he conceded that right to all. He opposed this motions
the interest of charity and goodwill ; and the more he vet'
rated his own religion, and wished it to be venerated by
others, the more would he hold it up es the emblem of jos
tics and peter to all. (Cheers.) He agreed with those ele?
thought that this motion was brought forward at a tract !el',
lj proper time. In Ireland all was peace, tracquillity,
prosperity; and it was most unfortunate that they thole
raise this cause of discord and animosity at such a peeled.
Were the motion carried, it would raise an lesso more is:
portent than was anticipated in Mr. Sponcer's epaeeh, tad
mould lead to dangers more serious then he isogon,
Se talked of dosser to the country and the throne; 13'
the opponents of the motion were prepay d to take the
_reol
apopaibility of that measures which had been pursued,
late years with regard to Ireland, and which had tendril
more than anything else to increase the loyalty of the Irate
people. By continuing to promote equal laws,tbey err.
have to say of the Queen, that her glory in pew
ee,. '7.'s
strength in war was, that she reigned in the artier
spoke with the voice of a well •g d and united POP"
(Cheers.)
Mr. NAPIER wished to argue the question porch 'All
mpolitical eg.eyst.iooo nt.b timed rcefredd e dto ,
the original
o
Duke of Wellington and others, that it was never lutes. _
that that college should be maintained out of the ptib
purse. The motion was not intended to disturb anythioe
that was done before the union; it went simply to ratite!
110
the endowment oat of the consolidated fund. He esed!
neen onthe°raitiorietlytiorß.
tee—
that the Roman echoic priests had become that loyal see
well educated body which was anticipated from the erts
iblislkment of this seminary. In proof of this, be retri:m4
the Sizmile-bridge affair, and to the opinion then e
by Lord Palmerston, that perhaps the priests who took rt
It were not worse than the generality of priests in 7,7
.lemdc The question at issue he believed was whether thleo
Vint had asystendency to secure an intellectual and
The evidence, he thought, was eery °tit-A
,FEZst that point. The right hon. gentleman rmenr
1
bulls 'rased at various times, particularly Wle!?
Laitysetter k opposition to the law. It had been mad that all re
J Omega hid berm abrogated, but still he found them
petaled in 1832. By making these grants they mare "e:
Primes in Ireland to carry out these canon., thus lo lore
theme into collision with the law, and rendering !!
liable to punishment. It had been argued by 5"

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