The Express.
London, England, 1863-05-08 00:00:00

PRFITIONS FROM BRITISH HAFFRARIA.

Mr. A. MILLS asked the Under-Secretary of State for
the Colonies whether any memorial' or petitions bad been
recently addressed to her Majesty's geveroment by the in-
habitant' of British Haffraria respecting the proposed an-
nexation of that province to the oolong of the Cape of Good
Hope ; and.if so, whether there would be any objection to lay
such documents upon the table of the house.
Mr. C. FORUE saki there bad been some petitions
presented within the leaf few moths from the inhabitants
01 British Hanna pra_ying that they might not be annexed
to the colony of the ape of Good Hops, but as the eau-
enmity was not old eanogh to judge in this matter, the
governor bad taken Tossissros for the purpose of annexing
the district to the colony al the Caps.
THE CONDUCT OP MR. CHRISTIE AT BRAZIL—
THE PRINCE OF WALES AND THE FORTE.

Webb, the hen. member concluded by moving the adjourn. ;
meet of the house.
Viscount PALMEESTON objected to the grounds upon ,
which the hon. member who bad just set dews was desirous
of controverting the judgment which her Majesty's peens-
ment bad formed of the conduct of Mr. Christie. The hoe.
member Mated that all the respectable merchants at Rio
disapproved of Mr. Christie's conduct.
Mr. BRAtiLEY-MOORE —The large majority.
Viscount PALMERSTON contended that the opinions
of the merchants was nothing at all to the purpose. It
was not for • body of merchants residing in a distant cons-
try, to judge of the expediency of orders which bad been
transmitted by their own government. It was for that go-
vernment to decide the question. Now his (Lord Palmer-
stem's) information differed entirely from that of the hon.
member for Lincoln. That gentleman Mated that the
large majority of merchants residing at Rio disapproved,
not of the conduct of Mr. Christie, but of that of the British
government, seeing that Mr. Christie merely executed his
orders. He (Lord Palmerston) was informed. not by Mr.
Christie, but by gentlemen on whom judgment and veracity
he could rely, that the large majority of the merchants
entirely approved of the conduct of the government. Many
of them, it was true, had large sums due to them by Bra-
zilian merchants, and might fear personal loss, should any
dispute arise between the two goverment& Such men
walla, of course, speak with caution, but he believed that
they, as well as the rest of the community. wens glad of the
!steps which had been taken by their government. As •
matter of fact, he believed that the great majority had
openly expressed their approval of what had taken place.
The hon. member repeated his statement respecting the
information that had been received of the murder of the
mew of the Prince of Waite, alleging that the mind of the
agent from whom it was received was in such • state as to
dmentitle his testimony to any credit. He (Lord Palmer-
ston) thought that that wee a very unfair, unfounded, and
ungenerous observation. Mr. Vereker, it was true, had been
suffering for some time from an illness to which any can,
even the hon. member opposite, might be liable, but nothing
of a nature to impair the valueof big testimony. Her Majesty's
1 rare:hd
n murdered. bd landed
men' knew that the unhaq o
y crew of thne Prince of
collected their goods, sad had properly armed themselves,
but they were overpowered by the people of the districts,
who first dragged them away with their lames ad then
murdered them. The facts were not proved sufficiently for
legal purposes, but he had reason to believe, and he did be-
lieve, that they were ea he bad stated.
A smart discusrion followed, which was wound up by Mr.
DISRAELI, who deprecated discussions of such import-
ance as this one being brought forward in so desultory •
fashion. . _ . _. . ... . ..

The motion for the adjournment of the house was then
put and negatived.
CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL.
Mr. LYGON asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether be intageled to persevere in the motion of which he
had given nolicia,lo move, in the eventof this bill paring the
commitees that night, the remaining stages.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his in-
testi= was to give the noble lord the member for Stamford
(Lord 8.. Cecil) an opportunity, by going into committee, on
the third reading of raising • discussion upon the notice
be had announced. Owing, however, to some defect in in-
timating that intention, the order was set down for com-
mittee. Under these circumstances it would not be regular to
proceed with the subsequent stages, and be should not pre-
emie to go further than the committee that night. If
there were no amendment, the bill would be reported.
PRISON MINISTERS BILL
On the motion for going into committmon this bill,
Mr. R. LONG moved as an amendment that the house
should, upon that day six months, resolve itself isto the said
committee. There had been, he said, 400 or 500 petitions,
with 50,000 signatures, presented against this bill, and one
of them petitions was from the corporation of the City of
London. The only ground for the introduction of the mea-
sure was that it was felt to be a hardship that Roman
catholic prisoners had not a chaplain appointed and paid by
the country to administer to their spiritual necessities ; but
that was • grievance, if it were a grievance, which
'paved to be • necessary consequence of the Eng-
hah constitution, and which must continue so long
as the principle of • Mate church was retained.
The remedy proposed by this Lill was that all prisoners of
other denominations than the church of England should
have ministers provided for them; which would lead them a
much greater length than he thought the house would be
prepared to go, and would bind them to provide and pay,
if it was required of them, a chaplain of the Mormonne
persusaion even. It was alleged as another grievance that
the duty fell upon the chaplain of selecting and distributing
amongst the prisoners such books ea they thought fit. That
was not the law; the discretion riled with the visiting
justices, and that disposed of the complaint that prisoners
other than of the established church were pre-
vented from baring mom to any books except
such as were sanctioned by the prison chaplain.
So long as all primal were allowed to nee
ministers of their own persuasion, if they so desired, he did
not think they had any ground to complain of the present
"yeti= • and if they once conceded the principle of mold-
ing Roman catholic chaplains for the criminals, be wanted to
know with what show of justice they could refuse • 'boiler
demand from the honest Roman catholic working claims
It had been urged that under the provisions of this bill the
raacisthates would not have the power in their hands which
would be necessary for the preservation of discipline, and
the government had denied that there was any truth in the
assertion ; but they had an illustration of what would be the
result in that respect in the case of the Rev. Mr. Fox, the
Romanist chaplain of Dubliu workhouse, who, after having
been dismissed by the Poor-law Commissioners, was rein-
stated upon the argument of Archbishop Cullen that Mr.
Fox received his powers from his ecclesiastical superiors, and
the secular authority could not take them from him.
Sir L PALK secoeded the motion.
Mr. MOKRITT defended the bill, to which there was
nothing he, as a protestant, was afraid of.
Mr. KENDALL opposed the bill, which he thought was
a mistake ; it was a smastire not of toleration, but of en-
couragement.
Mr. G. DUFF supported the bill.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was unwilling to give a silent vote
• second time upon the bill. The principle upon winch the
measure was bead was • narrow one, and one upon which
every man was bound to vote according to his sense of
Christian duty. He was willing to believe that
it was only under • sense of Christian dut
that the amendment had been moved and sea
It was with regret he had beard the imputation
that support was given to the bill on that side of the house
from a desire to court and conciliate • certain class in the
house. (Hear, hear.) For himself he distinctly and en-
tirely repudiated any such motive. His sense of Christian
duty forbade him to oppose the bill. He had never given
a vote in support of any measure which tended to diminish
the strength of the church of England, to which be be-
longed, and he entertained a strong conviction that by
rang against the bill be would not be adding to the honour
of that church. If there was one principle of the church
of England which more than another tended to strengthen
her hold on the affections of the people it was the principle
of toleration. (Hear, hear.) The present was a case in
which they were celled upon to act in • spirit of toleration
towards • class who, more than any other in the commu-
nity, required spiritual instruction and assistance. He
bed beard no answer to the argument that it was
that class of prisoners least likely to call for spi-
ritual advice who most required it. He asked his
hon. friend the member for Devon (Sir L. Palk) to imagine
himself living in • country where protestant' formed a smell
minority, end where protestant prisoner' were practically
denied the benefit of the ministrations of their owe
Would not his hon. friend be the fiat to demand that
state of things should be remedied (Hear. bear.) The
bill was denounced ass compromise, but it was in fact no
compromise, but • charitable concession, and it was moos-
•y • permissive measure from the circumstance that
there were few counties in which it would be necessary to
carry its provieiots into effect.. Upon the ground that the
bill was a charitable concession be should give it his support.
Lord H. LENNOX gave his cordial support to the bill,
which, in his opinion, world remove a practical grievance.
Mr. WALLET end Lord A. V. TIEMPEZT spoke in oppo-
sition to the hill.
Major HAMILTON said it might be thought that the
feeliop of the people of Scotland were in favour of the
passing of this bill if they were not stated to be otherwise.
(Loud( Pries of "Divide," and great interruption) The
opinions of the county meetings had been taken,
and they ware unanimously expressed against
the measure. (Shouts of " Divide," and groans.)
If the house would refer to clause 3 they would fluid that it
stabled the minister of every sect of religion to visit the
prisons. ("Oh, oh," sod " divide.") Now in Scotland
there was a met called Jumpers, and when the respectable
portion of the people would be on their way to church on
the Sabbath they would see the national dance of Scotland
danced in front of the prison doors. (Loud laughter and
" oh, oh.") In Wales there were, he understood, many
Mormons. Now the respectable people there would see many
ladies of that sect goingto celebrate their peculiar worship in
the prisons of that principality. (Laughter and "oh, oh.")
If clause 3 should be agreed to it was quite upon the cards
that a party of thieves and blackguards would find their
way into a prison is order to secure a suss of money to one
of their pals. (Loud laughter and greet interruption, amidst
which the boo. member meowed his seat.)
Sir G. GREY said that as be had on two occasions ex-
plained the grounds upon which the government bad
thought it their duty to bring forward this bill, ha would
sot detain the house by going over them main. (Hear,
hear.) He had not heard the greater part of thi;
speech of the hon. member fzerhippenham (Mr. R. Long),
but he thought the speech of the boo. member for the
North Riding was a sufficient answer to it. (Hear, hear.)
The principal objection loth° bill seemed to be the fear that
it would give rise to dissensions among the enegistreey, but
he believed those fears would sever be realized.
The house divided—
For going into committee 172
For the amendment...
The house then went into committee, Mr. Mammy in the
chair.
Mr. E. MORE moved that the bill be limited to England,
observing that in Scotland • special request from a prisoner
to be visited by • clergyman al his own religious perineum
was not required %skeet primer.
Sir G. GREY pointed eat objections to the limitation.
After • long debate the eaniesittos divided, when the
anseedseent wee negatived by 96 to 56.
Mr. HUNT moved to monad the third clams so as to ex-
clude the power of appointing particular ministers and their
PaPeolat.

Mr. IiONCICTOH MILNER, os rising to put a question I
to the First Lard of the Tree&ozy respecting the conduct of I
Yr. Christie, her Majelly's minister at Brazil, in the qua
Ur of the ship Prises of Wales and the officers of her
riiiesecy's ship Forte, and to ask whether a letter ad- I
to Earl Rural by the minister of the United 1
States at the court of Brawl, and subsequently published,
bad received any notice from her Majesty's government,
said a gentleman who held office as minister at Brazil, I
under the government of the United States, had addressed
• letter to Lord Russell on the conduct of Mr. Christie, her
Majesty's representative at that court. Any correspondence
of that kind would be of a private nature, and not deserv-
ing of the notice of that house but the words used in that I
despatch bad been quoted by the bon. member for Lincoln, 4
and these were to the effect that Mr. Christie
had shown a reckless disregard of the truth,
and that his character was not credimble se I
a gentleman. Those assertions having been repeated in
that house some colour was given to the assertion of Gen.
Webb as to the conduct of Mr. Christie. He did not think
that any gentleman—(Order, order.) He had therefore i
taken upon himself to say that this language was most
offensive to Mr. Christie. It was the universal habit of
gentlemen in that house, when they made use of expressions
in the heat of debate which gave pain. to come forward at
once and express regret. He bad hoped the bon. member
for Lincoln would have come forward and done that, but
he had not doss so, and therefore he had no other
°ours, to take but to ask the questions of which he had
given notice. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALM ERSTONsaid Mr. Christie sat for some time
as • member of that lase, sad many holt members would
recollect the ability with which he performed his duties
there. He could only speak of Mr. Christie as • gentle.
man and • man of honour, and ia regard to his veracity no
man could question that veracity with any semblance what-
ever of truth. ;Hear.) Withreprd to General Webb, be (Lord
Palmerston) knew nothing of him, said of him could say no-
thing. With regard to his letter, it we. no doubt treated by his
noble friend attire head of the Foreign-office with that entire
disregard which it deservedly merited— (hear, hear)—and
if any such letter had been written by a British diplomatist,
be felt quite sure that his noble friend wouldhave dismissed
that person from the service as having proved himself wholly
unfitted and unsuited to hold any commission under her
Majesty. With regard to Mr. Christie's conduct io the
matter to which his hon. friend had alluded, the
negotiations, and the demands founded thereupon from
the government of Brazil, he had the satisfaction
of stating that Mr. Christie's conduct had been approved
by the British residents, and that be had actodjwith great
judgmeet and with great forbearance in the perform-
ance of the cedes* which he had received, and
therefore there was no ironed for imputing to him anything
against which any foreign government could take offence.
(Hear, hear.) But it was well known in countries which
happened to be sa that peculiar state of progress which
the Brazilian government happened to dud itself in, that
when any injustice or inirooduct compelled her Majesty's
government to obtain redress, the foreign government took
revenge by calling forth calumny upon the agent
of the government which had to use those means.
He could arum the hour that no such proceed-
ing as General Webb'. would damage any representative of
her Majesty in any degree. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE biped, after the statement
just made, that he would be permitted—having beau alluded
to in so personal • =Doer—to make some reply. He felt
some surprise at the'statenieut astihe noble lord in reference
to Mr. Christie, that he bad conducted matters at
Brazil with much moderation. Now, them were
people midis/ at Brazil who were cambia of judging—
(Cries of "Oh, oh," and "Order," and "Hear, bear.") He
would move the adjournment of the house. (Hoar, hear,
and "Order.") It was perfectly obvious that at Rio Janeiro
there were persons more capable of judging of the troa-
duct of Mr. Christie than were three who raided at this
distance. From the information which he had received he
thought the conduct of Mr. Christie was anything but mo-
derate Of cooeiliatory. (Hear, bear.) If bon. members would
rrd through tbe despatches they would find that
the Mee of Yr. Christie's language was redder and
insolent, and such that ought not to be red
by a representative of this country towards any
foreign country. It we. well known that Mr. Christie had
quarrelled with everybody et Rio in the diplomatic service '
—with the reporeatetives of Azar* Proses, aid with
even the Pope's nuncio. Ob," and laughter.) Ile &Boded
to the Popes nuncio becalm be believed he was a man of
very mild disposition, and would not quarrel with anybody.
His opinion was that instead of sending out a person of the
unhappy temperament of Mr. Christie we should have sup-
ported a government like that of Brazil, which bad always
kept faith with its engagements. It was well kaolin that
when Mr. Christie's successor arrived, the latter refused to
see him, and that much public inconvenience was the con-
sequence. Yr. Christie's exaggerated staterneets and
mia-
satements bad produced serious injury to British interests
in Brazil, and it was a long time before amicable relations
could be restored. All this was attributed by the British
community at Rio to Mr. Christie's want of tact and Judi-
meat, and- the urd'ortaaate irritability of his temps!. His
charges respecting the murder of British seamen had never
been substantiated, most of them depending on the whirr
of • gentleman who ins keowe to have been labouring
under mental deluder. Having stated that he oonsidered
himself folly jaatilat M quotas As &wake of GOMA'

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 8, 1863.

Sir G. GREY objected that this would place the law of
England upon the same footing as the law of Soaked stood
at preenut, and would amount to a rejection of the bill.
This amendment, after • loog debate, was likewise
negatived upon a division, the numbers being 96 to M.
The question of payment was raised again upon an
amendment of the same clause moved by r. Bentinck, the
amendment, after a discussion of math interest, being
negatived upon a division by 101 to 71.
Sir Y. PETO objected to the latitudinarian character of
the bill. Suomi, a man declared himself to be a secularist,
he might demand that an infidel should be paid for visiting
him. He feared that the bill would open the door to en
agitation to which that for the abolition of church rates
was but • trifle. He, as a nonconformist, was opposed to
all endowments, but he was surprised that the right hon.
member for Bucks, who bum his policy on the idea of a
national church, should support this bill solely with a view
of °pacifist' the Roman catholic section of the house.
Mr. DISRABLI mid that the boo. baronet the member
for Finsbury bad imputed motives to him as influencing
his public conduct which no one member of that house was
justified in imputing to another. He (Mr. Disraeli) was
however quite willing to stand upon the general tenor of
his conduct, which he thought would show that he bad never
nought to make his support of the church of England sub-
servient to party or personal purpose'. If he thought that
this bill, which had, in fact, been planned last year by his
right hon. friend the member for Oxfordshire, contained
anything hostile to the church heahould give it his uncompro-
mising opposition. To call it an endowment was a fallacy. It
merely provided a mode of rewarding persona for • service
they were aired to perform ; but the church of England
stood in a ; went position, being in no way the etipendiaty
of the state. There was therefore no analogy between the two
arses. Noone could pretend that these persons, whatever their
religion might be, were not entitled to the consolations of
their faith. Bat he had shown that the preeenoe of the
chaplain in gaols was not • question of endowment. If
there was any one principle clearly established it was this,
that religious liberty should be freely accepted ; and that
our prisoners should not be debarred from the enjoyment of
their religion/ rites. The fallacy of the boo. member was
that the protestant chaplain waaandowed—that was his first
fallacy ; then that the Roman catholic chaplains, if intro-
duced into the gaols, would also be endowed—that was his
second &limy. Bat his third and greatest fallacy was that
the church warn the stipendiary of the state.
He denied that there was any principle of endowment
in the bill. They were endowing no religion by remune-
rating a public officer. The strength of the church of Eng-
land was this—chat whilst being in theory and greatly in
practice the church of the nation, it was not opposed to the
development of religious liberty.
Mr. WHITE said he could not help protesting against
the doctrines laid down by the right hon. member for
Bucks. He thought the only claim of the church of Eng-
land to her rights and revenues was founded on her parlia-
mentary title. He thought this question of paying
catholic chaplaina was a most important one. If this prie-
Mple was admitted, he could not see why it should not be
extended to paying the Roman catholic priests in Ireland.
Sir H. PETO accepted the statement of the right hon.
gentleman as confirming all he said. If the right hoe.
gentleman supported the payment of catholic chaplains in
gaols, he could not resist earryieg out the principle to all
classes of dissenters. The right hon. gentleman had given
up the principle of an established church. Practically the
religious instruction of the prisoners was banded over to the
prisoners themselves.
Mr. DUNCOMBE proposed to insert words in the clause
limiting the admission of Roman catholic priests into pri-
sons to the MIN where there were at least 30 prisoners of
that penitence.
Sir G. GREY said it would be quite impossible to limit
the provinnes of the bill to the number of 30.
Mr. DOULTON moved that the chairman report program,
which was agreed to without& division.

ILidu lintdltenct.

EQUITY COURTS.—MAY 7.
(Wore the Kaitir of the Italia)
_ zwaCl r. ZOO. _

The Soliaitor•Geseral,llr.Thelwyn, and Mr. Scansion
appeared in this case, and moved that the oasts of the de-
feedlots might be taxed and paid by the plaintiffs, and all
further prooeedinp be stayed. The mond of the motion
was that the plaintiffs had filed a bill ia Vice-Chan-
cellor Wood's court involving substantially the questions
raised in this snit.
Mr. Baggallay, Mr. Hohhouse, and Mr. Cotton
ware for the plaintiffs, but were not called on
onhis Honour, who said the cue wee not
ly singular in its circumstances, but seemed destined to
raise singular %orations as to the procedure of the spurt.
This was arguing over again the question decided at the
bearing of the plea. The Solicitor-General bad said the
present argument would be free from the technicalities of
the former, but his Honour thought there mast be some
rules of pleading. The defendants, by their answer
put in to the original bill, admitted the right
of the plaintiffs to examine witnesses, and could
it now be open to them to contest that right'
His Honour added, be could not look into the prooeedingsof
the other suit to see whether they were for the arum object
as this, but he should be very glad if the parties would
agree to apply to the Lord Chancellor to have the present
suit transferred to Vice-Chancellor Wood's court.
Mr. Baggellay, for the plaintiffs, offered that all proceed-
ings in the present snit should be stayed if the defendants
would consent to the evidence already given by a witness
maned Harwood (who bad been examined de bens sue)
being treated as if it had been taken under a commission
after replication filed.
The learned counsel for the defendants are to consider
whether they shall accept this offer.

INLAND REVENUE BILL.
On the motion for the second reading.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY expressed • hope that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would reomusider hie proposal for
taxing clubs, which hid caused a great deal of dissatisfaction
and which would produce very little revenue. Besides
there would be great difficulty in saying what a club was.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER understood
that the question woeto be raised at • future stage. He
regretted to find that an o twu was felt to the substance
of the enactment, but be did not think there would be coy
difficulty in defining clubs.
Mr. AYRTON wished to know whether the right hon.
gentleman contemplated any proposal with respect to clubs
of a rout under 1001. • year' It seamed to him also that
the clause went beyond the resolution which had been
pswdby the house. He also desired to know if the right
hon. gentleman meant to proceed with his suggested
change respecting the taxation of railways! In order to
give him an opportunity of answering be would move that
the bill be read • second time that day six mouths. (A

laugh.)
Lord 8, CECIL hatible dontii had occurred to his
mind, namely, whether public diapers would not be clubs
for the purposs of the act? (laughter.) 77re stewards of
such smembiiee were • body of gentlemen who bought wine
for the purpose of retailing it to the guests at • guinea •
hind ; and he was afraid, therefore, that every dinner
would be chargeable with a duty of 171. 10s. Perhaps
the right hon. gtetlemsn's intention was that this
be another form of taxing charities--only in this can the
import would fall tap= voluntary contributions. (Hear.)
HODGKINBON pointed out that at present there
were two rates of house duty, one at 6d. and the other at
9d. in the pound. Now by the present law houses licensed
for the purpose of selling beer, wine, or *rite, would be
liable to the smaller tax. (Loud cheers sad laughter.) He
had had the curiosity to see how the right hon. gentleman's
would affect the club of which be was a member.
KgaPlual was 2,9001. • year, which at 9d. in the pound was
1081. 15a. At 6d. it wee Eli. Is. leas, so that the right
bon. gentleman would really loss • considerable sum if his
were adopted. (Renewed laughter and enplane.)
proposal
HUNT thought it • great pity that the boo. member
had given the right hon. gentleman this piece of informs-
tint. (Hear, hear.)
Yr. CONINGHAM stated that there was a club at
Brighten which would come under the clangs, and which he
was afraid would he closed by it, for it had already great
difficulty In keeping its bead above water. He thought the
proponl • mischievous can ; for clubs were very valuable
institutions, and he should be glad to see them extended to
the working classes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware of any discrepancy between the claim and the
amendment; for they were intended exactly to agree.
With regard to railways he was waiting for some statistical
information which had been promised him by the companies.
He should be glad to receive further particulate about the
Brighton club. He had invited communications on the
whole subject, but he bad not been favoured with any com-
plaints. He did not contemplate any legislation respecting
clubs held iu houses below 1001. • year.
Yr. LYOON asked the right hoe. gentleman when he
proposed to take the committee, and also what revenue he
expected to derive from the taxation of clubs,
1 The amendment was then negatived, sad the bill reed
• second time. _ . .

- The CHANCELLOR of the haCHRQUER fixed the
committee for Mooday mat.
STOCK CERTIFICATES TO BEARER BILL.

The adjourned debate on the consideration of this bill
wee resumed ; and the third reading of the bill wu fixed
for Monday next. •