The Express.
London, England, 1855-08-04 00:00:00

(Stamped Id. Additional.) [TWOPEN CE.

Her Majesty's government were bound by ieo daty
to that house to state those masons. So far,
se they were personally concerned, they were
of course responsible to the house and to the country, and
in their part, with regard to their own actions, no conceal
meat had been exereired. Hese," from Mr. Bright)
The hon. member, who objects to war genandly, and hes
.(ways objected to this war oepetially, seemed to deny this.
If be cer.wdered that concealment had been practised, he
(Sir 0. Grey) hoped that he would not hesitate to address
the hone', and state his views upon the subject ; none could
be more capable then he in exposing hollowness and in.
shecerity if they existed, but notwithstanding the talent of
**hon. member, be (Sir G. Grey) appcaled with confidence
to the facts of which the house were in poesesion. To te
nni, however, to the subject 'of the Austrian proposal.
He mut say that, after reading the papers from beginning
M end, he could find no explicit assurance that the rejection
es the t roposols would range Asians on the side of the
belligerent powers. (Hear, beer.) The right hon. baronet
thea proceeded to read passegee from Lord Clarendon's
despatches and the answers of Count Boot supporting this
view of the eau, and next Lord Clarendon's written °pi-
nks; on the oompantive merits of limitation and
einaterpsise, recommending the whole despatch to
the attentive consideration of the boon. He bad read all
these despatches Die said) because they showed distinctly
the reams why government had rejected the proposi.
Wu, and what ha outonded he was that the proposals
supported by Austria were not sub at would, by their accept-
awe, have brought stout the object's for which the war had
been undertaken. Tee bon. gentleman in the course of his
nicely balanced argument, had admitted that the counter-
poke would Le only an armed truce, but added that an
armed true was what we had maintained is the
Meditates .ears with respect to France, and that
it would be no more hazardous in the one
ease than in the other. The b ble gentleman said
we should of course have to keep • large fleet at Malta; but
compare a fleet at Malta and one at Constantinople—the
first at a distance and not available on emergency, the
latter almost on the spot and ready at • moment's warning.
But did the hon. member really think that the pintoes of
embers in the Black Sea would have been sufficient ? They
might, it was true, look into Sebastopol and see 10, 20, or 30
ships of the line preparing for sea, and might report the
fact to the Commander-in-Chief. Remonstrance. might
be made to Russia, but the letter would answer that she
was acting up to the letter of your own treaty. The hon.
gentleman had further said that the limitation wee only en
agreement on paper, while the counterpoise would have
been • working plan. The hon. member seemed to intl
mate that Ru-sic would disregard the treaty, but if that
was the ease, it she would disregard one treaty, why dis-
regard another? If treaties ware not binding there was
no we in negotiating them, and he admitted that
there would then be no remedy but the convent
presence of an armed force, but for his part he could not
conceive the can of Russia being placed beyond the pale of
ordinary laws, and systematically disregarding solemn tree-
tits. The honourable gentleman urged that counterpoise
would be a working plan, because if Russia began increas-
ing Its fleet, the allies could go in and blockade Sebastopol.
If that were the only advantage, be did notate why it could
not be obtained by the adoption of the other p!ao, on any
violetion of which by Russia, Sebastopol might be blockaded.
(Hear.) He had now stated the reasons which had influenced
her Majesty's government in the course they had taken,
and had called attention to the documeots which had been
exchanged in the course of the negotiation', and now came
to the hon. gentleman's assertion that the limitation would
have put to great hersrd our alliance with France, in the
case of our having to act in concert with the forces of that
country during a protracted war. He did sot admit the
danger, but if, for the sake of argument, it were admitted,
then it would tell as much against entering into soy con-
tract whatever with France. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member admitted that in 1854 the war was a great and
necessary war, and rejoiced that we had entered into it is
cosi opinion with France, while now be thought that peace
ought to be accepted even et a disadvantage, lest by pro-
tracting the war the French alliance should be 'odes-
gered. But had t e sny right to suppose that France would
be willing to oaks peace on the terms he advocated ?
(Hear, hear.) And did he not think that there would be
some danger to the cordial alliance with France, if we
pressed on the French terms which they did not approve
of. He (Bir o.orey) congratulated himself on the alliance
with France, and believed that by going hand in hand
with her both in negotiation and action lay the only
hope of bringing the war to • safe and honourable conclu-
sion. With the honourable member's observeticne on the
horrors of war and the blessings of peace he perfectly con-
curred, and felt deeply the responsibility of supporting and
continuing the war. If they were to counsel the continu-
ance of the war one moment beyond the period when the
object of it had been attained, or a sate sod honourable
peace secured, it would cease to be • just and necessary war.
Bat the question was, would that object be attained by such
a peaces/ his hon. friend thought ought to be made ? (Hear,
hear.) His hon. friend thought that the French Nuance,
the blessings of peace, the evils of war, and the risks
sad dangers to which the country might be exposed
from entering into a war with a gigantic power
like Ruses, should; be considered. No doubt then
questions ought to be, and were, maturely considered.
He should be the lest person to speak on the issue of the
war with overweening confidence, or in • moaner unbecom-
ing the great interests at stake; but he must sey the lengusge
used, not by the hon. gentleman, but by others in that
house, language which was calculated to throw gloom and
apprehension amongst the people of this country, was not
warranted by the occasion. When be considered the
immense resources of Fresco and Eng.ano, be thought
there was no reason to be discouraged because the war bad
not been brought to a successful termination within the
first twelve months after it was begun. Without
lag any undue confidence, he had • right to assume that
whatever could be effected by the devotion and gallantry
of their soldiers and salon, and the equel gallantry end
devotion of the soldiers and sailors of their allies, who
shared together the victory and the hardships of the field,
would be effected. (Hear.) Of this he was convinced, that
the majority of the house did not share is the feeling of
gloom which it seemed to be the object and the endeavour
of some of its members to instil into the minds of the people.
(Hear.) He believed they would not concur in the censure
which the hon. gentleman cast on the government for not
accepting a peace which would allow Russia the means of
aggression—means of aggression which Russia pertinaciously
clung to, and which it was evident from her acts and
language she would take the first opportunity of using foe
the furtherance of her designs-designs which were alllto
inconsistent with the safety of Turkey end the permanut
interests and security of Europe. (Hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE, enlarmag upon the evils and dh-
asters of the war, remarked that among the oonsequesom
of its prolongation would be the utter exhaustion of the Tay
power which see took up arms to defend. Of the alleged
exhanstioa f Russia he feud no authentic symptoms.
Take any of the ordinary tests. Tele the rate of exchanges—
were they vitally effected ? we the prices of commodities
in Russia greatly raised ? He was told not, nor had the
prices of exported goods fallen. When we were 'peaking
of Russia in reference to I. Bunning the policy of the ga
vernment we ought to look not to Russia in • large and
general sense, but with reference to those part of that
country of hich St. Petersburg and Moscow were the
manes . • and from all that be could see we bad no
right to reckon on the exhaustion of Russia with refer-
mos to the viatica of war or peace. With respect
to the spirit and feeling of the Russian army, he would ask
' any one to put himself in the position of the Russian people
and the Russian army. He did not souk of the Russian
g eat. Patriotism and religion might be cent phrases
with those who composed the Russian government, but it
sow not so with the Russian people. Again's*. whom were
' the Russian soldiers fighting ? Against the hereditary ene-
mies of their race, against these whom they believed
to be the hereditary enemies of their religion, against
the invaders of their native soil. If then were
two incentives which more than others were calcu-
lated to draw forth the energy of men, however rude,
were they cot the names of their religion and their Saviour,
and the defence of their native soil against the invader, end
how wash to be supposed that those incentives would not
work on the Rid sign people. He would relate an anecdote
which had rescbed him on good sathority, which illustrated
the spirit which the Russian government bad int used into
the army, and oleo as it illustrated the tremendous hues
which that army had *offered. He had it in evidence that
was not concocted, but quite trustworthy that 40,000 men
arrived at Penkop on their way to join the
Russian army in the Crimea. They were urged by the
commander to march thirty vents a day, a long march of
something under twenty miles. The men made a represen-
tation to Limit leader that he should not impose on them any
fixed distance es a day's march, but allow them to go on
as far as they could. They reached the Russian camp,
the point of their deatinstion, in four day', and they lost
10,000 men on the way; they left Perekop 40,000 strong,
end they arrived at the end et their march 30,000 in
number. This bore out all they bed heard of the enormous
number of losses which the Russian army had met with. It
might be said that it was impossible that a country could
stand such • drain ; but it was oleo well worth emit
thing as evidence of another aspect of affair,. It showed
the spirit of endurance, tlie devotion to the will of, tldir
Emperor, the strength of their patriotism, and their reli-
giose feeling, when their zeal so outran all other coneiden-
time, that in the short space of four days one out of every
foar of those men lay prostrate in death upon the ground.
It appeared to him to be a fact full of meaning. Had the
heron noticed what took place in Sebastopol on the 20th of
Jose? We knew it through the medium of the papers,
although it was • Russian account. The debt hon. gentle-
, mem then read to the following effect:—" Oa the 20th the
burial of the dead continued till the owning, when
eke flag of tram was removed end the bombard-
moot re-consmeneed, thOegb more feebly ; a Ts Des, was

sung in the church of St. VisdimlrOMld all tie Wilier. at-
tended la the clothes they had wont in the hsttle, and
there was not a coat that was not dyed in blood ; if. who:4l
garrison received the Sacrament, 0 i OA. n• S .ck.n • 'D-
enying it Snit, .ad the rest of those assemble) :deer him."
It might be said that this was fanaticism. but it we. net
hypocrisy, sad it woe a sign of that *pi. It which had e nelied
Russia to play so great a part in Europe, which would not
make her formidable against us is a just tons., but
which ought to be taken duly into consideration in a
war of the justice of which we had begun to doubt.
He was grateful to the hone for the manner in which they
' had beard him. There was never, perhaps, a greeter in-
stance of the freedom of speech in this reentry, when he
reflected that his right hon. friends end biloseit, who had
been parties to entering into this war, and whc , h.eing since
come to a clear conviction that it ought no longer to be en-
sued, were allowed teeniest,' themselves with ratite liberty,
and were allowed to utter the strongest centime-it. against a
system which they condemned. They could hot do so
without incurring taunts sad sneers, aid he freely
greeted to the government that it they had ac-
cepted the proposal which bad been preased on them
by the noble lord (J. Russell), they would hese hirleited
place and power, and been driven out with itivective, sad
that which was harder still to bear, with ridicule. He
(Mr. Gladstone), and those who thought with hint, well
knew what it was she government in such a are would
have bad to bear, and la a far greater degree than them-
selves. They had, therefore, no right to csuplein;
they admitted the difficulty in which they, tile ori-
ginal entasellore of the war, were platesii, sow that
they were opposed to it. He did nut complain;
but he thanked the house for having permitted
him to say all that he thought on this vital gelation. tor he
believed that the house wu of opinion that it they were
wrong, yet they were the men of all others who ought to
try to draw the country forth from she struggle when they
could do so with honour. He was not Ashamed to se, that
he retained his original opinion of the war. Some honour-
able gentlemen near him differed with him eutoely in that
respect, and he believed they were ready to censure him
and his friends for ootssentiog to go to war. li.tween those
gentlemen and himself and his right hon. ii ie nit ti ere was
that difference. He thought the war just, bud not only
necessary, but one which could not he :se °end—
that it was necessary to cut the knot of the meehe s of the
net in which Russia had entangled Turkey. Ihe war on
which he entered was the war the obj• et 01 which
was defined in the four points. It was the war it a united
people, and, above all, it was a war made ice ti.• o.ute
and on behalf of Europe. This country, thin, reeee•ented
a European combination, and the authority et Eurepeut
law. We were joined, not only with F..'.., but
we had Austria and Prussia, beckon,: .• ohs of
them had been, leagued with us in . treaty,
offensive and defensive, to resist Rossi. in carry-
ing out designs which were then probable and
near. That was the war on which he and these who acted
with him entered ; and more than that, it ern ol,v ion. from
the nature of the war that certain g 1 rule. were ap-
plicable to it to which we ought to have endeavoured to
conform. It was obvious that if possible that war should
have been short, for two reasons—firstly, in es war that
depended on alliances ought to he :Ant. It wee not
distrust of France, as had been said by theiebeeci eery of
State, which led his hon. friend (Mr. Laing) to eiticipate
danger to the French alliance ; but the contibuance e. war,
the very nature of a prolonged war was to endanger alliances;
and every war made by means of alliances ouelit ti lie thort,
sharp, and decisive. Some persons might say that hi• and
his friends' war was not short, sharp, and derisive ; hut his
answer to that was that their war was for the tour points.
Condemn it if you liked, but helms speaking of what the
war actually was—a war with certain objects, which were
defined in the four points; end there objects he
thought had been attained; and having horn .twined,
was it inconsistent to say that the wer;ought to he brought to
a close ? Would it not have been the moil c•diteinp.ible
effeminacy of character if a man it his poeit:on, who had
shared in the bringing of the country into this struggle,
bad shrunk from declaring that it was necessery te got out
of it. That was the wet on which he and his 11 in.& had
entered. What the war now was, he did not plete•• to know.
Mr. LAYARD replied, with much see. riot, to Mr.
Gladstone, and contended that Russia had ie. no iestance
offered any important concessions. The system of coon-
tensed's. he believed to be totally inadequate, .ed pointed
out that its inefficiency was from the begin ii g of the con-
ferences reengnised by the Foreign Secretary.
Mr. COBDEN would not follow the epee, h of the hon.
member tor Aylesbury, to whom he niter li•tebeil, on
Oriental •ffeire with the attention due to ere personally
acquainted with, the East ; but sometimes, atter listening to
him for a good hoor,he wee utterly at a loss tr. kflOWill bat was
the policy and purpose he meant. When the hnr. j,eatle-
man, however, spoke in slighting, if not utmost'. oust terms
of the magnificent speech of the right hon. 1331 usher for the
University of Oxford, in that wince due respect towards
the most eminent orator in that house, the hen. gentleman
displayed a want of self-knowledge and a superabundance of
self-esteem. The hon, gentleman had said that it wat riving
encouragement to Russia, merely to point out our own
defects and shortcomings. Why., had the hon. gentleman
ever made a speech without finding fault with everytticg ?
(Hear, hear.) Long age he told the house they the Russian
army would overrun Asia Minor. Was it, tbetefore, to
be charged upon him (Mr. Layard) that he bad
invited General Mouravieff to come and besieeo li•di ? If
it were encouraging the enemy to expose our own faults and
weakness, there wee no greater sinner in that way than he
(Mr. Layard) had been. (Hear, hear.) There i: one
matter now (continued Mr. Cobden) which I enu t titer to,
though with great pain; but it is the first time, and will
probably be the last °melon in the present eoaion, for me
te speak of it. We have been discussing the Winne of
the authority of public menu to the pelicy o' the war.
We have been told how the great negotiator. at Vienna
were all in f of peace on the terms of the four iodate,
and how much respect all over Europe was attached to their
jadgment. I attach very mush importance to personal
authority in matters of this tort over the mind, .f tie un-
initiated public; and when I find • right hoe gentleman,
a cabinet minister of the crown, uttering sent Illelb ti of un-
measured denunciation spinet a large body of the mem-
bers of this house for their conduct here, I th:o le that is not
a subject which can lightly be paned over. I allude, sir,
to the right hon. b the member for Southwark.
Before I sit down I think I will be able to Vilralit.tt myself
for having been the individual to call on the rittet hoe. gen-
tleman to justify hie conduct on that day. 'I sot tight hon.
gentleman attacked three or four parties in thi• I ..use—the
opposition, the right hon. gentlemen who sit o n the t p of
this bench and myself, and my friends who s;t below. The
right hon. gentleman talked of the unscrupulous opposition
of the followers of Sir R. Peel and of the peace party. He
denounced us as nefarious, as unpatriotic bodi. .c , r ryirg on
war by means of ambuscade. I suppose be intended to
call us sharpshooters. When I find lei genre of
this kind addressed to me by a right boom-
able gentleman who pu•s himself forward es
the advocate per excellence of the war, and who, from his
high position as a Cabioet Minister, must have authority fa
thus acting, I think I am only doing my duty to the cause
which I support, the cause of peace—not peat. at ell price,
but a rational peace—in endeavouring to chow that the
right bon. gentlemen is nut an authority entitled •o much
weight when be comes forward as the advocate of war. I
want to know when the right hon. gentleman beet ads pted
these sentiments. Two years and a half ago. la December
1842, when Lord Aberdeen was terming hie goverament,
the right hon. gentleman was offer( d a place in that govern-
ment—the office named was that of Secretery at War.
The answer of the eight honourable gentleman an, that
he bad no objection to take office larder Lord
Aberdeen, and did not Ma require to be made:. cabinet
minister, but that is a government professing to umbraoe
every shade of liberal opinion, he should like ti enuw that
his sentiments were represented in the cabinet. When ha wall
then asked whom he would consider to bee reprenntivive of
his opinion, the answer was, Mr. Cobden. (Corer. and
laughter.) Now, air, this was no secret communication
made to me by the right hon. gentleman owlet the seal of
private friendship, but the very same evening t. et the offer
was made, before he knew whether he was to be 111 the eobl-
net, he told me what had passed in the Genteel hell el the
Reform Club, in the presence of half a doeen gentle-
men, some of whom now sit near me (Hear.)
I want to snow, and I have a right to ken', whet, it was
the right hon. gentleman was converted from the etenimus
which were identically the same as mine, when be bream. the
great champion of the war. He hes been at the timber ..t the
Reform Club, the Eeinburgb meeting, and the $ uttered/
election. Let not the right hon. gentleman thief: to ae• wee
me by saying that he and I were of the same V invr en
peered politic., but not on the question of re..ea and war.
I will remind the home that my opinions on • lila subject at
peace arenot new. I have attended large orogen In this
and other counties, and joined an agitation the ue!ect of
which was to imbue the public with proper unit... eta as
to peace and war. My friends well know that when
I saw the general prosperity which f01i0...4 the
adoption of free trade, I told them that this preepeoity would
lead us into war ; who I saw the Chobbam Camps end the
Spitbead reviews, and alarms of invasion. I felt they cosec all
calculated to lead us into war; and I said we comet net do a
better service than by gesture/ op en agitation to impreee en
the people the advantages and blessings of pone. Toe tight
hon. gentleman knew all this when he offered' to meek* Me
his representative in the cabinet. The right hap, .' seatannan •
and I have long bees acquainted with each othleor lifiewe en -
foreign politics, and if there was one point on,.:sit.iten ear •
elite& views seemed to be in perfog. r Maki,
it was on foreign politics. My first Mut *alie al -
life
as life w writing a pamphlet against Mr. 1.:44 mg, ei.h •--
lit,. j
was then engaged in a crusade against Runt Ai-4. .
to an•
increase of .5,000 men to the navy, vermin. :.. -'j
tient to repel invasion. I begin to think i feat ...,
injustice has beenden• my original ad 'nasty. •id •H .r. •
Urquhart ought to be now prime mi_ister c: this ri sit.