The Express.
London, England, 1863-07-07 00:00:00


THE EXPRFS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 7, 1863.

bad more recently made over to the government for
120,0001. • quoigtlty of land which wr worth 260,0001.;
and, after making a fell allowance for encumbrance., they
had still in hand • surplus property of the value of
300,0001. The commierioriera were at the same time men
of the birthed respectability. and there was nothing that
could juetify the abolition of their powers.

SEYMOUR supported the motion.
Mr. T. BARING said that he was one of the commis-
sioners in question ; and although the members of that
body would be perfectly prepared to lay down their powers
at the proper time he believed that the adoption of the
motion of the member for the Tower Hamlet. would be a
must arbitrary proceeding on the part of the Rouse of Com-
mons.

The motion was negatived on a division by 165 votes to 42.

CHINA.

Lord NAAS called attention to the state of affairs in
China, pointing out the teedency of the Chinese to rebel
against their rulers, and characterising the present coodi.
tion of the country as one of anarchy owing to the Taeping
rebellioe. He argued that the hostile interference of this
country is the affairs of China had very much contributed
to the revolt, as it bad tended to make the constituted
authorities contemptible in the eyes of the people.
Oar constant efforts to force the opium trade
on China also had a great deal to do with it.
Our wan with China had been carried on in a peculiar
meaner • and oar policy had been equally peculiar ;
as whiliprof smug neutrality between the contending par-
ties in Chins we had certainly espoused the part of the
Tartar dynasty, and were now interfering in shunt all the
internal affairs of the Chinese empire. He showed that the
Chinese customa were practically in the bands of English
officials, and that an English force, comprie!ng ships of
war and seamen, was virtually in the service of the Emperor.
la reviewing the general policy sow pursued by this country
towards Chins he urged that that which was in the aacendlaat
dir.ted on the life of one man, Prince Kung, mid was
e ted to identify England with the upholding of a
most corrupt and tyrannous enters of government. Our
trade with China had vastly
i increased, but all the exports ,
came from the districts which were n the bands of the
Taepings, and it was a question whether the policy we were
pursuing, and which was battle to them, would not tend to
diminish trade. He pointed out the danger arising from
our coming into collision with Russia and France, both of
which powers were interfering in the affairs of Chian. He
urged that the special policy which was now being pursued
should cease at the end of the two years to which it was at
present formally limited.
..—..—.

Sir 11. VERRET expreosed his approval of the policy
pursued by the go►erameot in China. They had, as be
noderstood, only endeavoured to enable the Mors
(government to maintain order within the limits of its own
Jurisdiction.
. . . . . .

Mr. LA YARD said be felt no misgiving with respect to
the policy of her Majesty's government in China. The
noble lord had expressed the strongest condemnation of that
policy but it seemed somewhat strange that he had
not thought proper to embody in any motion his views
upon the subject. There could be no doubt that
there were great difficulties to be encountered in
the prosecution by foreigners of • friendly policy
with so peculiar • people as the Chinese ; but these
di/Unities were disappearing before the efforts which were
being successfully made by Sir F. Bruce to carver the
Chinese authorities that we were ready to conduct our in.
teecoures with them in a fair and amicable spirit. Thecae-
sequence was that the onotrausace of friendly relations
between the two countries seemed to be more probable at
the present moment than it had been at any former period.
It was true that the government had not attempted to es-
tablish any understanding with the Taepings. Bat tree
people only combined for purposes of destruction ; and they
did nothing whatever to protect and encourage trade sod
industry.
Mr. B. FITZGERALD denied that Mr. Layard had
given son stirrer to the objections takea by Lord Naas in
his able speech to the policy which her Majesty's govern-
ment had recently pursued in China. They bed formerly
adopted • policy of neutrality ia that country ; but during
the last few yearn they had changed their course with the
change of sonic; and he believed that their present inter-
ferer* in the internal dresser of China was not elm-
lated to promote the honour or leeriest. of this cortry.
That policy would provoke a feeling of bitter hostility to
us among • considerable portion of the Chinese population,
and it would sot improbthly involve us in collisions with
Russia arid with Frame, which had their own objects to
attain is that remote mortar of the world.
Lord PALMERSTON who on rising was received with
loud cheers, said-1 listened with great attention to the very
long, and I most say able speech of the Dobbs lord who
began this discussion. He showed with the greatest industry
that he had gone through all the details of everything that
has pared in Chios for several an past ; but I own I was
at a Ices to understand the conclusion which ha wished to
draw of oso ere on her Majesty's government for the course
ti.o lricy they have followed. In the first place, it was
surprising to hear from an hon. gentleman on that
side of the house such an enthusiastic defence of the rebels
-to be told that rebellion is • sacred inatitutioa-
(hear, hear)-that it is quite culpable in the government
to give any help to • friendly power for the purpose of
, suppreadog it. These ars new doctrines. (Hear, bear.)
Does that principle apply to Italy ! Are hoa pellagra
pawed to gay that they would apply theamme protection
to those who have cast off their allegiance to the former
governments of Italy which they are prepared to show to
tree Tsepings in China! (Hear, hear.) One principle is
suitable to one country, I presume, sad another principle
I to another. But the main queries is, has the policy which
the government has pursued in China bees attended with
good results! Is it founded in good faith, sad is it likely
to produce ednatap to the country! (Hear, hear.) In
years not long gone by we were perpetually in hostility with
the government of China-hostility of squabble and com-
plaint, or hostility with arms. (Hear bear.) What is the.
case now! We were then attacked and condemned,
and we were told, " you are engaged in hostili-
ties with one-third of the human race-you are
needlessly risking all the commercial interests of the coun-
try by these squabbles and conflicts with the government of
Chiaa." We were told to abstain and let things take their
course. Well, the date of things is now altered. These
very hodilities have resulted in this, that we are now on
most frigidly terms with the government of China-Omer.
bawl-that we have ream to the supreme government of
China, from which we were hitherto debarred by local and
provincial authority, and the noble lord has bimsell quoted
rehires showing the enormous increase of our trade with
China during the list three or four years. Compare the
state of our commerce with China some years ago when it
was Goofier by the Est lathe Company to one portion of the
Chinese empire-compare it, I say, with the great develop.
meat now given to it over the whole surface of that empire,
end look at that extension which, I trust, it is destined to
' receive when, by our friendly assistance, we shall he able to
place the internal arrangements of Chita on a better and
more regular footing. (Hear, hear.) A great put of the
noble lord's speech seemed to me to be in high praise of her
Majesty's government. If I had been listeniog to anyone
moving a vote of approbation I should have expected him to
narrate the very things which the noble lord, in the simpli-
city of his mind, brought farward se the gravamen of com-
plaint against the government. (Cheers.) What did he
say! He said, you are teaching the Chinese government the
arta of government which are practised in Europe-(bear,
bear)-you are enabling them to collect their revenue on •
systematic principle. and to nurser that revenue by the
equal way in which the customs duties are levied ; you are
giving them the meats of preserving order in their territory;
you are allowing your soldier and mikes to enter into
theirservice for the purpose of suppressing those disturbance.
which waste and desolate from time to time the finest
portions of that empire. (Hear, bear.) We admit the
charge-(cheen)-ad we consider it a great merit is the
government in having dose these things and in (modelling
to do them-their, bear)-ad I was sorprised and gratified
that the noble lord, having bestowed all his industry in the
collection of face to fabricate • grave charge- having come
to curse was obliged to stay to blese-(hear, hear, and
laughter)-ad having come down to brow a charge against
the governmeot be was compelled to enumerate thins
which I think do infinite credit to them. (Cheers.) I hold,
then, that as the government of China has altered its
policy with regard to foreign nations and with regard to the
English nation-as the policy of China is now conducted by
Prime Kong and sarociates equally liberal with himself-as
they are prepared to enter into intimate relations with fo-
reigners, instead of, as formerly, keeping them at arm's length
-as the policy of China is now to encourage commerce nod
to endeavour to extend it with the nations of Europe-1 say
it would be suicidal policy on our part not to endeavour to
assist this enlightened government of China in pursuing
that course of policy that they are now prepared to adopt.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord and the hon. gentleman say
" we admit you are entitled to defend your treaty ports
and to have • radius of thirty miles round them, but one
of the great charges made was that we took steps to rescue
orie of our treaty Aorta from the hands of those Taepiogs
who had violently seized and occupied it- I mean Now°.
(Hear, hear.) If the noble lord admits it is 00f duty to
maintain the freedom of throe treaty porta, why doss be
complain that we have employed our officers to rescue the
important port of Niogpo from the Trollies! The admission
of the noble lord ri an answer to theaccusar ion he made &gal or
us. (Cheers.) There is oothicg inconsistent with the prac-
tice of satire in one friendly government lending to another
°Mears to drill and instruct their troops, to merge
the polio. of their coasts, and therefore we hare done
nothing, when we authorised the Queen's officers to
lend their services, that has not been done in innumerable
Uralic:es and in a perfectly justifiable manner. (Hear,
bear.) But the noble lord said-and it amused me-
" You tell us that one of the duties of Captain Sherard
Osborn would be to destroy pirates"-he says " that
it is not necomary to rod • ship of war to do it, for any-
body might do it." Yes, but you must bell the cat.
(Laughter.) You may destroy the pirates, but the chance is
that the pirates destroy yon-(hear, hau)-and that is
what is happeoiog on the coasts of Chios. We know that the
coasts of China are infested by fiesta of pirates, some Chine's,
some Eur peens, who prey ea all the ships of commerce
they meet with. (Hear, bear.) There is no use in sayisig
these ships of commerce man destroy the pirates. Ooe o
the great objects of Captain !there'd Osborn is to destroy
these pirates by the squadron oneLer his orders, rod to
restore security to the econrceree of Europe on the core of
China, and I hold that to he • very meritorious occupation.
(Cheer-) Well, the noble lord went Into • description of ,
the great encroachment. making by Rome on the meets of
China, and be told us that Frame had also views of ambi.
tioe in parts of Asia is ocioNSISOIS with (Ibiza, and he said,
"I ware you that the course you are pursuing will lead
you into conflicts with these two other great powers." Bat
whet was the course which the Noble lard proposed we

should follow is order to 'weld this possibility of conflict
One course was that which we are pursuing, namely,
strengthening the Mind empire, adding to the
reveeue of China, and enabling China to
provide herself with • better aag and a better army. (Herr,
hear.) That is one method of inspiring other countries with
caution as to any future encroachments they may think it
desirable to make on China. (Hear, hear.) But what is
really the natural inference NA* drawn from the warning
he gives as? That we &bold& retire from China, end aban-
don it to Russia and Francs. Withdraw your minister,
withdrew your eettlemeate, and withdraw your merchants,
because, remember, France and Russia are encroaching in
China, and if you are there at the time you will be in con-
flict with them, and therefore get out of the way, and
allow Russia and France to proceed—(a laugh)—because
they will be stronger than you. and the only coons would
be to avoid the conflict and abandon China—to give up alto.
gather your trade and political interest, and everything you
think of value, to the mercy of thou two great powers, and
limes China to the f Liter. policy of Risala and France. (Hear.)
Well, I do not admit that policy. I admit it is
quite true that Russia has of late made very fre-
quent encroachment, on the northern provinces of
China. Is is quite true that France, which has always •
great tendency to extend itself—(laughter)—has certainly
carried her operations into Asia ; but nevertheless Fresco,
Kumla, and England are perfectly agreed, at present at least,
in their
.policy in regard to China. They all concur in
4so the imperial goveroment, sod therefore our
icy as at present conducted has oo tendency whatever to
. us into collision with the other powers. Our minister
ocrettng
at Pekin is on the best possible terms with the
representatives of France and Busse, and so far from there
being any fear of collision or say antagonistic policy between
the three powers, I am happy to my that they all concur
in feeling that it is their material interest to restore, if
possible, tranquillity in the interior of China, and to extend
the commercial relations of all the countries of Europe with
China. I am, therefore, at • loss to see in what respect we
are blameable. The noble lord anticipates that European
wars are likely to wise oat of our commercial Me-
tiers with Chloe. I, on the contrary, anticipate that
the policy we are pureeing will open • still
larger and more extensive sphere of industry in that
part of the world. Depend spas it a country *outdoing
so many hundred millions of mss most have means far the
dove! eat of great remoras. The Chimes are • com-
mercial people, and there is so hostility to Europeans
among that population. The hostility Is entirely confined
to a certain number of mandarins, whine interest it is to
keep everything which does not actually belong to them 1
out of the field of commerce. That heredity is now, how-
ever swept away. The Chinese government is friendly
instead of boodle, and I have Pot the lent doubt that if these
lateral didarbaeose could be suppressed ad tranquillity
restored to the interior of China we should find in oar open-
mercial intercourse with the Chinese • source of national
wealth sod prosperity which could be hardly snticipated
even by those who tared so much of the advantage of the
suppression of the Fast India Company,snd the enlargement
of the commercial relations of England with China. Ido
trust that by this time next year we shall see the result of
that faithful, straightforward, and friendly policy which we
have adopted towards the Emperor of China ; and I am per-
fectly covvioced that if the house only agrees to wait the
result of that expewoee we shall see the soundness of that
polity, and find that so far from the government deserving
the censure of the noble lord and the boo. gentleman op-
posite, on the contrary, the course which we bay. panned
is eminently advantageous to the country, and deserving the
approbatioo of the hoed. (Chest"
Mr. LIDDELL said that the noble lord at the had of
the government in; defending his own policy had evaded .
the real (mention— vie., the effect of English policy in
China. He (lir. Liddell) contended that the effect of oar
policy there waste destroy the authority in China, and her
Majesty's government were now attempting by very
doubtful and illegal means to prop op • power which they '
themselves had destroyed—the imperial power. The sable
lord's government had taught the Chinese government to rest
oa them instead of helping themselves. Our own envoy at
Pekin had told them that within the lest few mouths thee
capital was in danger, and the mandarins were making no
effort to defend it, because they relied on the Esglieh
troops. Oar interference in China was woneesesary, ad'
no member of the government bad shown that there had
been any injury to the British subjects either in person or
property. That policy was most mischievous, because it
boded to prolong the unhappy straggle, and led the Chinese
government to rely rather on British troops than on them-
selves for the resistance against their rebellion'
subjects. The noble viscount said that our envoy
was acting in concert with the representatives of other
foreige powers at Pekin, but what did the under-secretary
say ? He said, " Never mind what is the policy of Prance
and Russia—tbeve in oo analogy whatever between that
policy ad ours." The time would arrive, he believed, if
this policy were pursued, when China would become the
great theotre of political intrigues. The under-secretary
mid that the rebellion was waning, bat Mr. Oliphant. who
accompanied Lord Elgin to Pekin in ISSO, used precisely the
same phrase. The value of those prophecies might be judged
from the fact that the war was raging with greater vigour
than ever, and the richest producing districts is China had
fallen into the bands of the rote's, who still continued to
bold them. The rebels were gaining instead of losing, from
the want of faith in the English governmeot, who bad
broken their reiterated pledges of neutrality. The adieu
of the French at Ningpo had tended seriously to injure our
trade, and in proof of that we were told by the last mail
that the British contingent had been formed to keep in
check the action of the French contingent as well as their
lawless sets of rapine and violence. He therefore thought
that the first duty of Captain Sherard Osborn would be
to control the lawless operations of oar French allies. He
could not conceive • more difficult position for an English
admiral than that, even though he was in the employ of •
foreign power. These were some of the complications to which
the policy of her Majesty's government was leading us. He
thought, however, he sew • glimmering at last of sometbieg
like • desire on the part of the government to retire from
the untenable position which they bad attempted to hold in
that country, rod he hoped they would reverse • policy
which would Medea us is danger and embarrassment.
. -- .. . . ..

Colonel SYKES thanked theloble lord opposite fur keying
brought the subject forward and testified to the accuracy
of almost every statement which he (Colonel Sykes) bad
made in the house for the last two years.
The Pohl* viscount was mistaken in sopposiug
that the Tartar government was a civilised one, and that
dignity, forbearance, and consideration were due to them.
The fact, however, was that there was so such government,
which wee a mere myth. Priam Kum* could not advance
100 yards beyond the walls of Pekin. No one had here able
to sdduce a single instance from the Bluebooks 10 which an
European bad been injured i• person or property by the Tur-
nings. Where was the protection affotded by the imperial go-
vernment? They were told that on the sth of January
this year fifty robbers landed and horned the village
of Whampos, near C►nton, and the imperial government
could afford no protection. In the neighbourhood of Cm, on
the imperial government attempted to tar pork, and the
butchers row and drove the officers out of the place. Is
another quarter taxes on bricks caused • rising, and the
brickmakers also not the lax gatherers to flight. As
to the executions at Canton, he held in his hand a ert.te-
meet from an eye-wane.... the editor of the Friend of
China, who saw the execution of ten men, and described
the skinning of • man tied to a cross with the brow down-
wards. Andtbis was the civilised government we were sup-
porting. It had been asserted that it was import de to
communicate with the Taepioaa, as they had no government
to communicate with ; hut it was admitted that the Tae-
pings had occupied Nankin 13 years; and mold it possibly
be true that they had no government! Mr. Griffith John.
who visited Nankin and stayed a month there, stated
that at Ningpo be found six administrative hoards, corres-
ponding with the bond at Nankin, that there was at pre-
sent martial law in consequence of the civil war, and the
civil authorities were in suhordinatien to the military, but'
when the war mind this would be reversed. And yet it
was preteoded that there was no government of the Tae-
pings with whom we could communicate. Sir George Ron.
ham had entered into communication, and so had other'
British authorities. They collected customs duties through-
out the territory which they occupied, and • gentleman was
with him theday before yesterday, who described having paid
customs duties to them, and gave him • copy of their
tariff, which be sent to Lord Resell. The fact was, the
truth was suppressed, and the country in the poasession of
the T•epings was described as being io a sl►te of desolation,
when that was sot the case. Be had an extract from the
diary of two Europeans, who went out into the district
about Ningpo. They were out several days, and travelled
several hundred miles, and they returned with two cargoes
of silk, but in consequence of Hirtgpo having been taken by
Captain Dew they could Dot return to Nirgno. but they
went to Shsngbse, and they described the country as being
in a flourishing condition and the people happy.
Mr. GREGSON remarked that the gallant colonel &dem
rated the cause of the Taephip on all occasions. The fact
was, there were faults on both sides in China. and he
hoped that the force wider Captain Shererd Oaborn would
prevent the atrocities which were now committed. Com-
pared with former yearn our commerce with China bad of
late yearn wonderfully increased. China, well governed,
would be a source of wealth and prosperity to any country
connected with it by the tiesof commerce.

Mr. WHITIaiIDE said that the policy of the government
had been defended by the Uodrr Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs on the ground that it was the beet that
could be punned ; but. he asked, was it a wise policy to
collect the revenues of a country like China, to assist in
disbursing them, to hire to then. distioguimbed officers for
the purpose of organising their army and navy. and to send
oat gunboats to fight their battles ? He believed
that the result of such a course would rise tip
in judgment again and again against the govern-
ment that had adopted it. They were is fact
doing for China what China ought to be left to do for her-
self. The noble lord at the bead of the government bad
relied on the fact that our trade with Chios had vastly
increased, hut his noble friend (Lord Na..) had shown that
the principal trade was derived from districts io possession of
the Taepiogs. The object of the present policy was stated
to be to create in China a liberal party. What, he asked,
was a liberal party ? Whet were its ideas, its principles,
ita results! Did the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
when be spoke of a liberal party. mean a party of ancient
and respectable 'bags? (Laughter.) He (Mr. Whiteside)
believed that the policy of her Majesty's government would
produce results in our dealings with China which this coun-
try would long regret. (Haar, bear.)
The subject then dropped.
SUPPLY.

The bons, then went into committee of supply pro form*
nod immediately restuoad.