The Express.
London, England, 1852-01-07 00:00:00

DEPUTATION TO LORD JOHN RUSSELL.

Yesterday a deputation or gentlemen connected with
the above association waited upon Lord John Russell, at his
official residence in Downing-street. The following are the
names of the gentlemen composing the deputation :—Right
Hon. T. M. Gibson, M P.; W. J. Fox, Esq., M.P.; Thos.
Bailey, Esq., President of the Manchester Chamber of
Commerce, Royal Commissioner for the Oreat Exhibition,
&c.; R. N. Philips, Esq.. Manchester; Absalom Watkin,
Esq., J.P., Manchester; Sells Schwabe, Esq., Manchester;
Philip Lucas, Esq., Manchester; William Rayner Wood,
Eq., Deputy-Lieutenant of the county of Lancaster; Rev.
W. F. Balker, M.A. Incumbent of St. James's, Oldham;
Rev. S. Davidson, D.D., LL.D., Professor of Biblical Criti-
cism Lancashire Independent College; Rey. William
M'Kcrrow, D.D., Manchester; Rev. J. R. Beard, D.D.,
Manchester; Rev. J. A. Baynes, M.A.., Nottingham; Ed-
ward Swaine, Esq., London; A. S. Aspland, Esq., London ;
J. A. Reed, Esq.' London; J. A. Picton, Esq., Liverpool;
and Mr. It. W. Smiles, Scretaty.
Mr. T. M. GIBSON, M.P., in introducing the deputation,
stated the gentlemen composing it represented various reli-
gious denominations, and bad combined in the National
School Association (or the purpose of promoting a better
system of national instruction than that which was unhappily
in existenceat present. The mode by which they hoped to
succeed was by carrying • measure through parliament
which should establish a general system of purely secular
instruction. He believed that among its members were
clergymen of various religious denominations, and he might
add, also, persons who were considered to be of weight and
influence in all denominations. He would not trouble the

noble lord by going into the details of their pla;,asl;e."
were many gentlemen present fully competent to address
his lordship on that subject, but merely say of the system
proposed, that it was not intended to be a compulsory sys-
tem, but merely one enabling the ratepayers so to distribute
the burden of national instruction, as that it should be sue-
tained by a rate, rather than by voluntary subscriptions,
as at present. The plan had already been adopted in the
matter of museums and other establishments which were
germane to the present question, so that the charge of
novelty could not be made against their proposal. But
although the association proposed that a rate should be
substituted for voluntary subscription, they also proposed
that a majority of ratepayers should have power to resist
its introduction into • district if they thought that their
educational wants were already fully supplied. The
gentlemen by whom ho was accompanied were
anxious to bring their plan under the notice of
the government, in the hope of a favourable reception,
and they deemed themselves well founded in that hope, be-
cause they had received the support of nearly all the reli-
gious denominations, were supported by numerous peti-
tions, and, moreover, conceived their plan to be based on the
soundest principles of justice. It did not profess to be a
plan for a complete education, but merely one for secular
or primary training, which should prepare the mind better
to receive and understand the great truths and principles of
religion and morality. lie would now give way to Mr.
Bailey, who would, with his lordship's permission, go mon
into the details of the plan.
Mr. BAZ LEY said that latterly the opinion of the
country had been rapidly leaning to some general system
of education, which should embrace all religious denomina-
tions; and it was also the opinion of a vast melority that
the object would be best promoted by the establishment of
a borough or parish rate, to be applied to the support of
such a system of education as might be received in
by all. But although they were anxious to
establish a system of secular instruction, they were by no
means indifferent to religious instruction for the rising ge-
aeration, their idea being that the schoolmaster should riot
be • religious teacher. It occurred to them that the school-
master might give secular knowledge, while religious in-
' eduction, which was amply provided fors might follow ; and
that an important object might be achieved,il the ignorant
people were taught to understand the laws they were called
upon to obey, and otherwise made
of society. Ile knew that in his lord-
ints2raiimill useful
members
lord-
ship he was addreseing a friend of education, he seed
not remind his lordship how lamentable were *a debts..
vies of the people in that respect. The allaaiatima
a scheme which they thought would week ssYsfiMwfy
They did not propose to invade religiose he in-
terferewith the religious teachers of Mho, Chris-
tians, but they said to those gentlemen, " duty, and
let us endeavour to remove the lamentable tca that
prevails." They therefore hoped that his lordship would give
some attention to the subject, with • view of proposing a
comprehensive system to parliament. Although they
placed the draft of a bill in his lordship's hands, the detai
were by no means perfect, their anxiety being rather to
dwell upon the principle with • view to its adoption by
government, and the initiation by them of • comprehen-
sive measure, irrespective of party or political feeling, and
applicable to all denominations in the country. It was a
fortunate circumstance that those who were the greatest
rata payers were the most willing to pay an educational
rate. In Lancashire the largest rate payers approved of
this scheme, and the various denominations thew looked upon
ft without fear. By their plan • certain portion
of the day would be devoted to religious instruc-
tion ; and they further proposed that existing schools
should be absorbed in such a way as that their
usefulness should not be interfered with. They did
not contemplate any great innovations; their only
wish being to gather in the little outcasts of society, and to
give them such elementary instruction as should. enable
them to understand the principles of religion, which it was
the duty of their clergymen to inculcate. These were their
leading principles' for which they hoped the favourable
consideration of the government.
Dr. kI.KERROW said that, although the scheme of
the association was a secular one, it was by no means op-
posed to religion—on the contrary, it was calculated to pro
mote it by inculcating those great moral principles which
formed somewhat a part of religion. The association had en-
deavoured to harmonise the feelings of all by appropriating
• certain portion of each day to separate religious instruc-
tion.
.They provided " that neither doctrinal religion, nor
anything in support of, or in opposition to, the peculiar
tenets of any sect of Christians, shall be taught or enforced
in any of tho said schools ; but in order to afford to the
scholars the opportunity of attending the instructions of
teachers of religion, the committee of each district shall set
apart hours in every week, during which hours the
schools shall be closed ; but no influence shall be used by
the committee, or any master, mistress, or teacher employed
by them, to compel the attendance of the scholars on any
such doctrinal or sectarian instruction ; nor shall any dis-
ability be incurred by the non-attendance of scholars on
such instruction ; and in came any ratepayer of the
district, or the parent, guardian, or next friend of any
scholar, shall conceive that doctrinal religion or sectarian
opinions have been taught in any such school, or that influ-
ence has been used by the committee, or by the muter,
mistress, or teacher, to compel attendance on such doctrinal
I or sectarian instruction, he may make his complaint to the
committee, who shall forthwith inquire into the same, and
make such order as they may think fit ; and in case such
complainant shall be dissatisfied with the order or decision
of the committee, he may appeal to the board, whose duty
it shall be to see that the provisions of this act are not in-
fringed, and if necessary to make order accordingly, and
thereupon it shall be the duty of any person or body on
whom such order may be made, to obey the same."
The Rev. W. F. WALKER, incumbent of St. James's,
Oldham, said that the plan adopted in private schools was

to get apart a portion of the day for religious instruction.
Now they (the association) thought that by taking it from
the over-tasked schoolmaster and I. aving it to the ministers
of religion, the cause would be better promoted. lie would
not have interfered in this movement had he not felt as
a minister of the postal that the scheme *mold put into his
hands means of training the young which he dal nut now
Cae. He had, of course, access to the Sunday-schools;
ti;illis Sundays were so full occupied that he was
obliged to delegate the duty to the Sunday-
school teachers. They were a most valuable class ;
but he wished, also, to have an opportunity of giving
instruction in the week days. It was on these grot nth
that he was anxious to impress the advantages of the plan
upon the government.
Mr. LUCAS said that he was a member of the Jewish
persuasion, and fully concurred with the proposition. The
members of his faith objected to schools in which their
children were compelled to read a traeslation of the Scrip-
tures of which their parents did not approve, but were
quite prepared to accept secular education on the plan
proposed.
Mr. ASPLAND said that the Society of Friends took a
deep interest in this most important question, and they did
not think there was anything in the leading prosisions of
the present bill to which they could object. They pelt,
however, a strong objection to religious instruction tieing
paid for out of the public purse, and bad published a pro-
test against such an arrangement.
Mr. WOOD said that the scheme was consistent with the
principles of civil and religious liberty, of which his lord-
ship had been ever the consistent champion. Withreferetas
to the present association, he had carefully watched its pro-
ceedings, and he believed that the measure now submitted
was entirely in accordance with the principles to which the
Marquis of lansilowne had given his sanction.
Dr. DAVIDSON, as a teacher of religion in the
congregational body, saw nothing in the 'imposed scht me
inconsistent with the principles held by that body.
Mr. FOX. M.P., said that the plan was almost identical
with that which hod received the government sanction in
Ireland with such happy results. They had beard a great
deal of "justice to Irel.,nd ;" he hoped that now the ques-
tion of "justice to Emzlanol" would receive the favourable
consideration of the government.
Lord J. aussmr.t, said that he had very few remarks
to make on the subject. In the first place, he would say
that in his opinion the country were indebted to the gentle •
men of the association for making an effort in behalf of
education. Ile had long felt that the state of education in
thii country was such as they had no reason to he proud
of--indeed, that it was such as they had reason to be
ashamed of. Therefore, even if they were foiled in their
attempt, they had earned the gratitude of the country by
their efforts. With rtganl to anything further, he niust be
understood as not expressing the opinion of the government,
the member, of which had not came to any di eision on the
subject, and indeed he might add that any remarks ho
made himself must be talc( a as subject to further MI-Ilion.
The plan of a great scheme of national education, to be under-
taken by the government, was one that re pined did'', con-
sideration. The cabinet of Lord Melbourne bad proposed
what they thought would be admitted to be an improvement
in education, and it was only carried in the Commons by a
majority of two. Sir It. Peel's cabinet proposed another in
which they made concessions to oectorp, and they were,
after all, obliged to abandon it. These facts showed the
difficulties that lay in the way of any government plan.
His own opinion was that the question was advancing to-
wards a solution, but he knew it was the opinion of Lord
Lansdowne• as it was his own, that it was not yet in a state
for government interference, sod that undertaking it pre.
maturely would be more likely to mar the object than to
promote it. With regard to this particular scheme lie did
not wish to say much shout it, but, if government under-
took it, they must consider what the state of the country
was, and what the state of public opinion. When Sun-
day schools were the only national medium of instruction
the British and Foreign School Society attempted a bitter
system of daily schools, and made instruction in the Bible,
by way of extract, the basis of their teaching. Subse-
quently the National Society insisted on teaching the
liturgy; and then the Wesleyan 'schools insisted on the
whole Bible ; to these lie must add the congregational
schools, and all this chewed that the tendency of public
opinion has been to combine secular with religious instruc-
tion. Although the system might be changed, they must
not omit considering that these schools existed. The bill
proposed to combine the schools ; that was matter of de-
tail, but his opinion was that the general policy of the
country was to combine literary with religious instruction.
Perhaps he might be prejudiced, connected as he was with
She British and Foreign Society, but that was Lis opinion. Mr.
Fox bad said that the plan was similar to the national
systemic Ireland which had been so successful, but he
thought it hardly followed that what was the best scheme
for Ireland would also be best for this country. Ito
thought that was a matter that might be disputed. Ono
thing he saw with great satisfaction was that although
there had been a protest by the Society of Friends in Man-
chester, the great body of the ratepayers there were willing
to be taxed for the promotion of education. Ile thought
that that was a very encouraging circumstances. He
wished only further to say that he hoped they would go on
with their scheme, although of course he did not pledge
himself to any particular course, lie wished them to go on,
because he thought that even failure in such a course must
do good. Although Sir J. Graham's measure had failed
and produced a great deal of clamour, it was still produc-
tive of large and beneficial results. For himself, he did nut
hold that there was any hostility betwei n secular and
religious instruction. His opinion was that if the country
were to say there must be secular instruction alone,
so far from that toeing hostile to religion, it would
only make the pupils more capable of understanding
the ministers of religion, and the great truths, the love of
God and of our neighboor, and the moral duties, which,
although not the Christian religion themselves, yet were
important portions of it, and their inculcation prepared the
I mind for its reception. Therefore, in any objections he
made to this plan, ho did not wish to be understood as
saying that there was any hostility between secular and
religious instruction.
Dr. BEARD observed that their plan did not necessarily
exclude the Bible. It was left for the local committee to
decide. The ratepayers were in favour of this plan, and
also the people, 6.5,000 of whom had signed petitions in its
favour.
The deputation then withdrew.