The Express.
London, England, 1862-06-24 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 24, 1862.

years ago, showed that they had not very attentively eau-
sidered the subject when they asked the house to
enter upon such an outlay. He believed that, had gemen-
t:nen, to take the responsibility of coming down with an ad-
dition of Id. or lid. in the pound to the income tax to meet
this Marge, they would not have it. (Hear,
hear.) He did not mean to sty the" night sot in that
use have thought some expenditure in the way of defence
advisable, bet they would have slaked for no more than in
their opinion was absolutely necemeary. There were one or
two general principles raised in the report upon which it
would be well that they had clear views. With regard to
the Spithead feria, he should like to know why, while that
part of the scheme was postponed, other parts which stood
upon the same footing were to be proceeded with ; as, for
instance, the defences at Plymouth? There were some
principles in references to the defemeee of the country
which were not beyond' the oonsideistion of those
who had not the advantage of probseneal experience.
The argument was that we should have to deal, not with
a naval force superior to our own and capable of sweeping
the Channel, but with one inferior to oun (and yet somehow
contriving to slip paid our fleets. It was argued that suck
a force, being composed of iron-plated ships, might come
near enough to destroy the great nurseries of our navy, and
yet not near enough for our forte to contend someadully
with them. Now, if that was true of Spithead it wee
equally true of Plymouth, end if they stopped the works at
one why were the works to go as at the other ? He suspected
that the government did not yet [eel certain wharethe truth
lay, mid that the only reason they had for continuing the
forts at Plymouth was that they thought they could throw
the burden upon posterity in the shape of a loan. He was
morn to see the luny which was springing up in regard
to financial matters. They were too ready to postpone the
payment of debts, end they were growing callous
with regard to deficits- Bet there was one thing that the
home had not come to yet, and that he hoped they would
Dever reach—a willingness to incur any ex tare pro-
vided they could throw it off themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK agreed with Sir S. Northoote that if
the forte at Panama:lth were to be universally condemned,
then could be so pound for proceeding with those at
Plymouth Sound.
Sir MORTON PETO admitted with some chagrin that
the coarse which the government had adopted had deprived
the speech which be intended to wake of ite most 'shoot
points. The hoe. baronet criticised at some length the
different reports of the Dehisce Oessmissioners, and recom-
mended the t to retries their steps, and take the
best advice could Minn before inaistiog upon so enor-
mous an ex
tore upon speculative fortifications.
The dela was continued by Ku John Walsh, Mr. Mon-
sell, mad Lord Clarence Paget.
Lord PALMERSTON-8k I think I may infer from
what hes been rasing that the house would wish to
come to • decision this evening on the question
before as, and I think so the more become this is only the
first slap 01 the proceedings. (Hear, bear.) It is rosily
and subliminally asking for lease to bring in • bill which,
when brought in, will go through insert& loges, sad hon.
mambas will have an opportunity both on the monad read-
ing and in committal* to discuss any part of the arrangement
to which they may wish to direct their attention. In the
lint place I would make some remark apes what fell from
the boa baronet the member for Stamford, who was very
eloquent in the defence of posterity. He objected to our
plan because it throws, as he said, upon posterity
a burden which we ought to take upon ourselves. Aa
answer might be given to him minim . to the one that was
green in the time of Mr. Pitt to somebody who was ado-
gomg.a plan for • sinking fund, on the grated that it wee
relieving postern) from the Widest of tho day. It was
said " Why shout we do so meek for posterity—what hes
posterity ewer done for es?" (Laughter.) I was somewhat
surprised at the objection of the right boa baronet, bemuse
it was founded on • deliberately adopted financial win-
ciple. He says it is not right or befitting that service*
of this kind should he provided for by loan—that they
are matters which ought to be the subject of an annual
estimate, and of detailed discussion in Committee of Sup-
ply, and he rather wishes the committee to retrace their
steps, and to adopt his view. But what happened two
years ago, when this question was first impend to the
house? When I had the honour of giving the reasons
why I recommended that this great expense—for great I
believe it to be—should be defrayed by a loan sad not form
part of the annual burdens of the year, the honour-
able baronet, if my memory does not deceive toe,
adopted the view of her Majeny's government and voted
for the loan, although now be finds on resection tint it
conflict' with what he considers to be the true principle of
flume. The hon. baronet remembers, no doubt, the
examples mentioned by my hon. friend the member for Lis-
keard, of changes of opinion in thin hoot—changes which
he so ably defended and so admirably illustrated. (laugh-
ter.) He charged right hon. friends of
.mine with haring on
former occasions differed with me in minion, and withbereinj
agreed with me now. My hon. Mead Mead as himself once
with me in opinion, but now he unfortunately does not.
(Laughter.) His examples as *palmy for the hoe. mem-
ber for Stamford, but nevertheless the house is not
bound to follow him in admiration of his opinions.
The house having suctioned the opinion of thervernmeet
that the cost of the fortifications should be provided for by
loan, the house I think will not retrace its steps this even-
ing. Now, the reason why we proposed a loan as the
proper course was this, that thou fortifications were prun-
nent workemade upon the freehold, that they're like perma-
nent improvements made upon • man's estate, for which be
is justified in charging thou who 001 IN after him. We
thought that as they were permanent works we would
throw the burden over a period of thirty yeah, in the shape
of terminable annuities ; and I trod the hon. baronet him-
self may see the conclusion of the annuities, the burden
of which he complains will be thrown upon posterity.
(" Hear, bear, " and laughter.) Thee, I am
asked by the honourable member for Norfolk
if it is our intention to take up his resolution and
to provide out of the loan for the floating defences. My
reply to that is that se the floating detences are temporary,
and could only lase for • certain limited period, we thought
that these floating defences would be better provided for by
an annual vote in the estimates of the year. Sion the
period of that resolution I have communicated with my
noble friend at the head of the Admiralty, and asked him if
it was desirable or to take credit in the loan for
those floating defences oh' he was about to provide. He
said no, and that he would be able out of the annual vote of
parliament to provide for the floating detainee. Therefore
the loan will be confined to the purpose for which it
was originally destined. Now, some find fault with our
plan because an opinion is exprinsed by competent officers
adverse to that plan. But my right hon. fneod the mem-
ber for Limerick object; on a different ground, for be finds
fault with the recommendation of the commissioners be-

cause they were unanimous. It is difficult to please gentle-
men of such opposite views. (Laughter.) But I must say
I do not find fault with the report of the commissioner'
because it is an unanimous. report. My right hon. friend
stated truly that there is no question of scienae in any de-
partment in which you will not find a number of persons
apparently just as good judges on the subject coming to •
diametrically opposite opinion. Take questions of legal
improvement, of medical science, of mechanics, of military or
naval tactics, of attack and defence, will you find any
proposition No plain and demonstrable that you will not
have very able persons on the one side and very able per-
sons on the other! All the government can do is to take
the opinion of those men whom they think competent to
judge of the matter, and if they concur in the views of
those persons to propose and recommend the plan on their
rapossibility to parliament. (Hear, hear.) That is what
we did ; that is what we are doing ; and we see no reason
to depart from our opinion, notwithstanding the different
criticisms ceased, I admit by officers of ability and by man
of experience in this house, upon the plan we propose. But
we are firmly persuaded that the system we recommended
two years ago and recommend now is one essentially con-
' sistent with the best interests of the country. The
resolution of my honourable friend almost emptier
itself, because he says in the beginning of it—l do cot
quote the words, bat I give the meaniag—that we aught
to be guided by the which is made annually in the
science of attack and roes ; of 0061.0 my boa. frigid
does not mean in strategy, but in the improvements of
arms, ha, and he also an that the navy is the mein arm
an which this country ought to rely for protection. I quite
agree with him in both these propcsitions, and the wares
we propos. is quite coosistent with the carrying of these
two propositions into effect. Many gentlemen imagine that
the fortifications we are constructing are constructed on
the old principle, without reference to the great improve-
ment" made of late years in the power of ordnance. That
is an entire mistake. It is exactly the reverse of the fact.
These fortificatioes, cc the contrary, have been constructed
in consequence of the great improiements in artillery and
the pester range which cannon shot was capable of taking.
Thes the whole foundation of our manure has been that
the navy is the great arm of defame. because the whole of
the fortifications have for their *eoliths protection of our
naval arsenals and establishments. The fortificatioes at
Pembroke, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Dover—in spite of what
has been and—fltheenter, end the Medway are 41:prosily
Weeded for the prolleotio• of these arsenals and docks,
without which yea could have so navy at all. (Elear,lear.)
You might as well hope to have • good dinner without •
kitchen se • good navy without arsenals and dockyards.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I say then we are
perfectly justified in recommending to parliament
theee measures of defence which men of military
end navel science, men of peat eminence and integrity,
report to be Deoessary for the purposeto:acting your dock-
yards is a state of security whist • fkr, the hoe.
member for Finsbury (bar M. Polo) has told us of the
friendly disposition of the Emperor ef the French. The hoe.
member cannot feel this more streagly thee I feel it myself,
and berMajesty's government fesA anal am mire every man in
the country feels rt. (Mom) The boa. member stated that
the Emperor of the French—l canape altogether go atom
with him In this—has, by the abolition of the Faispori
lidos), given • guarantee of friesdeltiAlim between the two
nations. I think that that is massif • small matter ;
but, sir, the Emperor of the Fruit* bee much mon im-
portant matters shown a most friendl sad cordial feeling
towards Ragland.(Hear, bear.) It Is qaite true that la
the lodise mutiny he offend as every facility for sending oar
troops across France, if we bad chosen to avail ourselves of
that route. It is true that in oar last dispute with Ame-
rica he voluatteered of hie own accord— without asking us
to express as opisioa—an explanation of the view of ma-
ritime law in Fresco, which lied • great and powerful effect
apes the decision of the A 1611631111 gov Tamest. He might
have withheld ; he might have toted dislike ; he might
bate atiPlammi double ; he might have kept @deem. Raid
so such thing. Is the most poems and frank way he at
owe deekteW what the French notice of maritime law wore,
and that was in Swear of na and avian the IJaitad [(tabs,

(Cheers.) It is impossible to say too much of the friendly
disposition he has shows us upon ell occsaione, and I nu
bound to my that, eotwithetandiag the &tees implied on •
former occasion by the hon. member for Birmingham. no
government can be on • more cordial and friendly footing
Wan the government et her Majesty and the Emperor of the
French. (Hear, hear.) But again I may that is act •
ground upon what • nation ought-to repose on a quedion
of such vital interest aa the means of defending itself. We
have had an example in America, It is not above • year
and • half ago that the whole population of Amon were
is • burst of eetbrisiasm in favour of England and the
Royal family, on the occasion of the visit of the Prince of
Wales. Amy man would say, " Here is • pledge
of peace and concord between the two coun-
tries." A few months afterwards there broke out
that unhappy war which now rape in the United States.
The North Americans toned fault with us far not taking
part with them, and on the occasion which nearly brought
esinto hostile Contact there wax • bunt of teeing of a very
different character throughout the United States, win*, if
the government had not been much more prudent end
friendly than the tone and temper. of the public, might have
involved the two countries immediately is • most
serious confine. England and France have, in former
times, unfortunately found themselves io collision upon
questions of deep national interest on both Miles. What
has happened may hawse spin, and it would be folly on
the part of either France or England to neglect those means
of defence agaiset attack by the other which might unfor-
tunately be brought into operation. (Hear, hear.)
Well, sir, my Doe. friend the member for Finsbury has)
✓id, why cannot the government of her Majesty come to
an understanding with the government of France to limit
the relative amounts of the navies of the two countries.
Why, sir, that is net • position in which on
*pantry can act towards another. (Hear, beer.) h "at
sountrim had so navies, they could not so ant. But we
are not the only naval powers of the world. Than are
ether power in Europe creating Ranee ea testae they can,
sad I may, sir, that this is • proposition which, though it
sounds plausible when enunciated by my hoe. friend
the member for Finsbury, cannot stand. We have
to consider that the navy of this orentry
is, se my hon. hind the member for Liskeard stated, the
neliewel and earentiel arm at air defense. (Hear, beset)
Its ban a Davy we meet lave deehreds. As to 111
ef giving up Portsmouth and ping else
wilaiil
knew- • where—hut removing here thisentablithenftl=
Is the work d 14118, and when isinadelie SUM tree been
establislumate el all kinds, it is rkfirskaa.
7elagll
mamsaAd* Pre up that place became time bash
depth of *stir iamb for the Warrior—thompli it her
hacreased sal will be haisesee& It Is said the
water is not deep monk ea the ells to admit=
el the Winker/elk but all times Nip item be
'at a very small Parbauswatit_ emir
_reesemmair
daliem—thwe in is the weirdite
is • tufty for our ensreentile lan ge=dusistsladems
the Cliamael, sad no urn is hie mama tint
dedgerd, ems if we had not began to defend it. to seek
eissedisre for assn ser establishment (Roar, Mar.) Well,
sir, te naval warfare it is quite evident that steam will be
the pent beirammet of propulsion in all Alps, whether
nest or net, whether of wood or boa, sad whether wood
coated with 'roe or iron coated with wood. (Hear, hear.)
Well it is said that In future blockades will be essy.
But deem power has made them more difficult Min
Oda the blockaded force may get out of port at ssoyey timei
without tried or favourable weather, and the b
anedron must come in to rspleakb with coals in take to
beep in a fit state for action. (Hear, beer.) But at Porte
lssd sad Dover ships are able to coal without the aid of
beton ; that operation is generally very dilliesh, cad
muses delay, but at both that plates ships can run along-
side and coal without any danger. It is said Dover mann
be fortified sufficiently against 'heck, so as to preen t
any force sad establishing itself there in a manner
which would eit difficult to dislodge it. (Hen, hoar.)
But I will not go into all these details. I will simply sty
that I hope that this house, forth' sated its own character,
will not go hack tonight from its deekke of two yeses ago,
which wee attired at by a large majority, the ihprirple of
this mann bang the saniehoashmthe
Tosesedut beam
iLey~myestisded that has. discharged himself of • spool
whit he hat made with point, ability, and showing greet
research, will mean for a future amain any further oh-
jesting which he might here to the &oils of the amenre,
sad fact
(( give Oa committee the trouble of dividing to.
complained el the incoasistmad
vacillation of the government upon this pad
What bed been its angle? A paper had pen laid before
the house in whisk the oast was 'Amsted at 11..500,0001.
Lard Palmerston had stated it at 9,030,0001. ; the this
Barstary for War redsold it to 15,0C3,C301., sad the
escregary dated it at 6,600,0C31. Yet
Milas Palmerdon had talked of the ineonddeney
=vacillation of the hone. Mr. Disraeli do
Fir S. Nordin* who had, in his opinion, fairly
data the objection to the mode in which this gentian
had been put before the house, which would thereby lase
Its control over the money to be expended upon
the fortifications. In twitting Sir Stafford with •
change of opinion upon this subject Lord Palmentoe,
he observed, bad forgotten hie own change of
opinion, especially with relation to France. The
noble lord to-night, in latiguage of great propriety, and, as I
believe, of greet truth, bay described the relations which
exist, and should exist, between England and France ;but
we all remember that is 18W he came down to
the house, saying that the truth could no longer
be concealed, and led us to believe that the oountry
was in imminent end immediate danger ; he told us
that he did not know when the cloud would
burst over us—that it wee Frame we had to fear—(oppo-
sition cheers) —and what was France to do—this civi-
lised ally, whom it sow suite the noble lord to remember
took no advantage of the Indian mutiny, and to whom we
are indebted for such courted*, la the Trent affair
and other matters in dispute with America ? (Man
cheers from the seen quarter.) Other honourable
members remembered these things, and did rice to the
French Emperor and the French nation. t whet two
years ago were we led by the noble lord to expect from our
neighbours the French ? We were then led to believe that
the blow might be struck immediately ; and what was that
blow? What wee Freon to do? She was to seize the
heart of the cometcr. (Hear, and • laugh.) The French
were to come up the Thames, enter London, and there to
dictate an end levy exactions from a con-
quered pen (Chest TC= and counter cheers.) When,
then, the noble lord taunte my hon. friend that
he did not perceive with sufficient rapidity the
whole nope and bearing of the ministerial proposal,
and protest against the form is which it was proposed to
call upon the house to authorise the raising of the money,
he might remember that others, too, have changed the tone
they then adopted, and that • calm, quiet financier is not
always master of himself when a Prime Minister 00UMS
down and makes than terrible communications to an ap-
plied and frightened House of Commons. ("Hear, beer,"
and a laugh.) But, sir we are in • peculiar position with
regard to these resolutions. The resolution of the govern
meat ukslue to sanction that which they themselves my
they do not wish the home to adopt ; and the num
explained by a technical reason which I could not accu-
rately collect from the Secretary of State, but which I take
for granted was satisfactory to those around him. (Hear,
hen.) Then we come to the amendment of the hon. mem-
ber for Liaised. Now the great objection to his reple-
tion as it stands Is, that it den not offer to the house any
deer bath awe which to act. In coesequesee of the shift-
ing ri their ground, and in consequence before the debate
commenced of having relinquished two-thirds of their
scheme, the amendment does not any longer apply to the
resolution, or meet the necessities of the case as it now steads,
and if we agree to the amendment we are called upon to give
an opinion which practically is a definite on on the proposed
forts at Spithead, which is the most prominent portion of
the amendment, but which is relinquished by the govern-
meet. There is no rofereace to thu mend in the &mead-
went, and es one point that is relinquished is alluded to,
it would be inconvenient, now that the other point is re-
lioquislied, if that is not alluded to also. In the oounie
this discuseke, if anything has been satisfactorily shown,
it is that the rule which the government has alluded to in
regard to Spithend applies equally to Ply mouth. (Hear,
beer.) The noble lord attempted to controvert that, hut
he did not appear to me to meet the point, he
merely relied on the report of the commission.
That commission examined only one witness, and that the
harbour-master. Now one tritons is no doubt enough
when he is of your opinion— (a laugh);—end those who
have heard from persons in authority that the construction
of the fans might seriously injure the navigation of Ply-
mouth Sound naturally wished that evidence should be
taken Maltose that the construction of the forte would not
bare that effect. There was, therefore, only one witness,
and that an official and local one ; but the result ma
hardly be considered satisfactory by the house. What the
house wants ia an opportunity of separately considering
ell the points that had been raised. (Hear.) Haying
agreed to this form of raining the money, which I deeply
I repot, and having proceeded so far in the construction o/
WM of the works, it would be more satisfactory if the
seentittee would endeavour to obtain so occasion of giving
ear epleise more in detail than can be afforded us by soy
more rekslution. There is one point in the speech of the
noble lord which has been brought before the house Dot froths
first time to-night. He ways that these fortifications are to he
regarded in the light of an improvement to our =
and that the oast ma therefore properly be
upon those who us. But e- what ground do IPS
make votes for fortifications in the ordinary yearly eath
mates ? Surely they are an equal improvement of our free-
holds. Why we should sate M,ooof. for Keykiam dock,
and raise a loan to fortify Plymouth Sound I cannot under-
stand. Ido not see when the line is to be drawn.
I hope the houses of parliament will prove • pens-
amt improvement, and ese that pon-zity may lon miry ;
but the expense of building them oely appeared Is the
annual estimates. If the house, in addition to the mug
votes for fortifications, Is now going to construct other mobs
by means of song reined wader • nartionler her,
I beg honourable mambas seriously to ooss'essixerra.
dangere course upon which it entered,
ybe the means of incurrilin alreadyng a vast war
tun, not by increase al tazatioa, which it is not probibir
that the country would beer, but by the cattinthaos of •
system of loam. (Hear, beer.) I thweli, however, WA It
is useless to regret the first ; our object should he either*.
oompeamte for our error in the beet way we ma. end tomes
if we cannot, even sow, amens something Mos a due
Petrol over this expenditure. The only way I. which we am
do that aeon to me to allow the bill to Pam into coin-
main, and then in every gleam we shall lave an efforts.

sky of examining it in ita minutest details. Ueder ti.•
circunistances, and particularly alter the great chase%
°mesoderm which have been made by her Mtjetn't
ten in the scheme Weight, I think that our object
be to get the bill into conainittee, and that no amen:Line;
should be premed to-eight. U the amendment were pre...d
it would only give the to • false inference. (Hear, her.)
Sir F. SMITH, as the seconder of the amendment, cajk
upon tlz boo. member for Lisksard to withdraw it
Mr. OSBORNE considered that the government, I,
Crtheir notice on the paper. bad left him no demo,
ing o muter the subject, and be left the commute,
jade whether be had not pestered the subject, and whet 4
las Lad received any detailed answer. He put it to th,
chairman of the Irce Plate Committee whether he had ut
accurately dated the reenled the experimeote at bhoehu7.
nee ; and with regard to the speech of the noble lord as
the house upon the altered tone which it er.
larePirdwards oar intimidate ally the Emperor of tie
Froth. He did not wish to prolong the delete, uk,
government bad graded the first part of hie ameorinre,
and he wan prepared to take the advice offered to hire 44
withdraw his motion, leaving the discussion in detail ix,
they pt into committee.
Mr. BRIGHT wanted to know whether an oppAtait,
would be allowed for the discineion of the measure ia dr
' tail. Was the bill to be simply a contannaoce bill, Of woad
it include in its clauses the different propositions to dug
the right hos. gentleman bad alluded in his speech
Sir G. O. LEWIS said it was • bill of 22 clauses, rte
detained • schedule in which the different propea.vs
were set out with the rum proposed to be voted for eel.
The resolution wet then agreed to, and
The hood returned.
COAL MINKS BILL.
This bill WM reed • mood tune.

PETItOLIIIII BILL.

The house having gone into committee on this bill.
Sir J. SHELLEY objected to going on with the bill
this time of night. These were several objections to n,
but it wee impossible to &cum them et that time. Ss
moved that the Chairmen report progrees.
Sir G. GREY mid the MR bad bees much pressed opol
him. With regard to Larks, the regulation. wers
tame se the sob is force relating to gunpowder.
Sir J. SHELLEY withdrew his motion.
The 111 E then passed through committee.
AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE TREATY BILL
Oa the seder of the day for the seoood reeding of ibis
1411. EWE faRD etegretuleted the home on this *sty,
which he said wee on. of the most advantageous moose
which amid be adapted, and reflected the greatest crock e
the United States.
The bill was then read a mooed time.

LUNACY ISOOTLAND) BILL.
Thin NU was Nod a third Mae mid plaid.
PORTBDOV7I4I FAIR DROOONTINITANCE BILL
This bIB was ?earl third time sad pima
TR ANEW= OF LAND (STAMP DUTY).
. . .

The hones net into committee, and a resoltition .
mewed to authorising the imposition of certain stamp
ditties on the transfer of lend.
0011PANDI13, de., BILL
This bill pond through committee.
NAVAL AND VICTUALLING STORM BILL.
This bill was reed a third time end pried.
POOR REMOVAL BILL

This MB was timisemoomd tine. -
CHANCERY REGULATION (IRELAND) BILL
The bin wet read a mad acne.
SHEEP (IRELAND) BILL.
Thle IQ wee read a oteowd SUM
LUNATICS LAW AMENDMENT.
On the Mike al Mr G. Gist, leave wee aline to bring
a MU to amend the kw retain to human.