The Express.
London, England, 1855-03-03 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1855.

ting them, but you sena= prevent them sposkiog. Then,
those aro ether objostieas to ix sea= committee. In the
lard plata the publio woald be satisfied with as in-
gairy debit= they did not know the grounds, and from'
day to. day the results. The public would think it aOM
joggio. They would consider that the House o/filsennossis
ws•\aot re a rodoesaiog the pledge it had Om= For
these reuons Illy shall give my vote against this beteg ammo=
asoutittos. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—The appointment of a secret committee'
is • piestoodiag which the horse should hesitate before they
earostis= There has beat only one instance of a sees=
sonamittos sines I was a member of this house ; and I felt it
my dot, to resist it. It was on a subject of great intermit,
which predicted considerable excitement in the country—
namely, the Nadu= of the Post-office in opening the bottom
of foreign refugees. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) That
subject was brought forward by the hon. member fur Fine.
bury. The conduct of the government of Sir Robert Peel
was called io question ; and a select committee was proposed
to inquire into the circumstances and the state of the lair. I
remember that one of the most distinguished members of
the house—a member of the government, and, I believe,
himself personally responsible for the act called in question,
for it had originated in the absence of a colleague whose
duties he was falfilliog—that right honourable gentle-
man who has informed ns to-night that he is
to be looked upon only as a private member (Sr
J. Graham), favoured the house with his instructing
and guiding remarks upon that subject ; and if I recoiled
rightly, the line then taken by him was, that if a committee
of inquiry was to be a searching committee it must he a
meretoommittee. (Hear, hear.) Not satisfied with enforc-
ing that position upon the house, he moved an amendment
to the motion of the bon member for Finsbury, that the
*elect committee of inquiry should be a committee of
socasey ; and the house agreed to the appointment of that
committee. (Hear, hear.) I will not enter iwo the discus-
sion whether that was an occasion which justified or did not
justify the appointment of a secret committee. But, as
above 10 years have elapsed, It may be interesting for the
house to know (and I say it upon the authority of a member
of that committee) that not one single tittle of the evidence
given before that committee has ever transpired. (Hear,
hear.) That was, of ileums, the wish of the house ; and I
only mention it as an answer to the remark of the right hos.
baronet, that a secret committee cannot keep its secrete.
There is a very great authority that if you want
an inquiry to be searching, it should be secret;
and the authority obtains double weight to-night
from the 'Tents with which we have been favoured by
the right hon. gentleman. He made a speak indulging io
a style of oratory of which he is the great master, and
kaows well how to employ on an occasion like the present.
It may be described as the oratory of terror. (A laugh.)
The ineht hon. gentleman almost 'chain.' every possible
combination of menace, every possible description of danger
that can occur, for the purpose of influencing the decision
of the house. This question is, whether the committee shall
be secret or only select. It will be an extremely beneficial
inquiry, and Ido not anticipate—whatever may be the de•
cision of the 11,,use—that any of those dangers will accrue.
I scarcely remember an occasion on which the right hon.
gentleman has not taken up that mace, and knocked the
House of Commons down. I admit that this consideration
had for some time some influence on my own opinion. 1
have been sorry to observe that every person who his eye
posed the secret inquiry also opposed the original inquiry
(beer, hear) ; and I admit that that hour made me look with
considerable suspicion on the opposition that has been
offered. (Hear, hear.) Nor can I admit that the argument
of the right hon. gentleman, that a court of justice
should be a secret tribunal, is a valid one. We have
in our present system of jurisprudence precedents for secret
inquiry, in the action of a grand jury. Then again, it has
been argued that it is quite possible to evade the secrecy
which is the object of this motion. I have alluded to as
instance where secrecy has been preserved. I cannot costeal
from myself that the objects of this inquiry Offl so loolfi-
fariouf, and of so comprehensive a character, that the dia•
cold= of securing secrecy are of course proportionstely
in-
creased. Nor can I understand how you can draw a line
between the admission of what is called the public and of
members of this house. If the public are not admitted, you
will probably have only garbled accounts, and not an impair-
tial and complete version. (Hear, hear.) I have such sow
Silence in the common sense and honour of a committee of
this hawse, chosen wider these circumstances, and instructed
as they have been, that I do not believe for a moment that
that secrecy would be violated. I believe, therefore, that,
practically, by excluding both the public and the members,
you may obtain all that is *ought for by this motion. But,
against some inconveniences which would result, there is on
the other hand the great disadvantage which must be expe-
rienced if an inquiry of national interest and importance,
upon which the feelings and opinions of the country are
centred, and which may be prolonged, should be carried on
in a mariner which would excite suspicion and distrust in
the public mind. (Hear, hear.) I think that the balance
is in favour of a public inquiry. (Cheers.) Ido not my-
self anticip••• those dangerous consequences to the main-
tenance of a just understanding between ourselves and our
allies, which have been so frequently and so needlessly re•
ferted to. I trust to the discretion and the honour of those
who guide and conduct this inquiry. Ido not se* those
difficulties, which have been admitted too easily, against
carrying on this investigation, with the presence of those
qualities of prudence and caution which I hope are the cha-
racteristics of • select committee of the House of Commons.
What then are the main inconveniences that will accrue
from this public inquiry ? There may be some, I do not for •
moment pretend that there are zot objections to either course,
and advantages which belong to either system. But
I think the balance of advantage is greatly in
favour of adhering to open inquiry. (Hear, hear.) And
though It may be a personal inconvenience that the public
generally should be admitted—and certainly a discussion of
this kind should not be carried on under the influence of
clamour or pressure—still I think it would be advantageous
if moans were taken that the result of the inquiry should
appear before the public in a complete and impartial form.
(Hear.) If the house makes spits mind that this secret
committee should not be a secret committee, I think it is
due to the country that it should also take means for having
the report of its proceedings published. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND wished to bear testimony to the
faithful accuracy with which Mr. Layard had referred to all
the circumstance* that passed upon a subject which he
Impel Meer to hear mentioned spin. (Hear, hear.) He
was not °sea those who pleaded guilty to having given
a toMises vote on the appointment of this committee. He did
sot vote for one thing, mooning another. If there
bad been may fair question of overthrowing the go-
vernment, he should have voted for the government;
hat cue consideration only possessed his =ind—
eed attar the best reflection he could give, he trusted
he was not improperly obstinatein maintaining it.
It was this : what would be the effect on the minds of our
soldiers in the Crimea if, when only inquiry iato the cause
of their sufferings was asked, the house had refitted to grant
it ? (Hear, hear.) The objects to which he thought the in-
quiry should be confined were well known. But he found
there were other head. quite as wise as his in the commit
tee, and he could not have all his own way. He saw no
possible danger in making this simple inquiry: why bad
they sent out 4,000 horses to the Crimea, when there was
not a mouthful to eat? (Hear, hear.) They went on, night
after night, passing those votes ; and every newspaper told
them the horses were starving. (Hear, hear.) He was very
suspicious when he hoard about • fall and searching in-
quiry. Every person who had used those words
had connected them more or lass with danger to our al-
liance. Now, he was not enamoured of that alliance.
He very much doubted whether the people of England knew
what that alliance was. He very much doubted whether it
was an alliance. He had heard of a live man being chained
to a dead one; perhaps that was an allisoce. (Laughter.)
When the time came—perhaps before the session was over
—he might think it his duty to state plainly to the house
end the 'pantry what he suspected that alliance meant. But
it was not before that committee that such a subject ought
to arise; and he thought it was very necessary that some
measure should be taken to provost their going into the
polio, of the war, or oar military or naval proceedings. He
would exclude them all. (Laughter.) The right hos. ha-
-1 roast had alluded to the advantages of an open committee,
and he had talked at the same time of that awful thing the
press. It was because he (oared there was • cowardly
whiting to the press that he objected to an open committee.
bear.) He knew that as these open committees
men wore pushed on by the presence of the public to ask
g restras which they would not have asked. (Hear, hear.)
were not the men who, in the old times, would have
wielded that mace aphid the house of Stuart, from which
there was real danger ; bat the real danger was now exactly
from the opposite side; end not a man dared do his duty
gad else up against that danger. " But (said the hon. gen-
liamen), of all the cringing Weser that has ever appeared
la Zaglish history, commend me to the conduct of the Übe.
rah to the daily press." (Laughter.)
Mr. T. DIINCOMBI said that the President of the
Booed of Health having sealed that be wee fond of creating
nimble& he maimed, tow a common phrase, that he
did smell a rat Haughter) ; and did believe
tbiA the bons, was trying to get rid of the
legairy if they mealy could. rid
of
was that be gut the question the other
night to the bem end loam& member for lielleld, whe-
ther, is w mewl, be was ressiod M iris on with the com-
mittee. The bee. and bossed rottenest imewered him
(a he was sure he would) that be wee in earnest, and was
tessived to remote the inquiry to the tatztatt. There
wee mot a weed Um about a swot eseemittee. It OM ad-
nuemiloi by may vibe ou:11 the applialment of any
eessmltess at elk Wale having teed a tiosailttee,
se groats. Mum* op* be exhibited to the house than
that wide was Warded that evening by those gentleman
who mond the sonsudise. (Hear, boar.) Now, how-
ever. id IM/Oro say Oleialty occurred, the member,of the
einiamos hedged tW they were incompetent to conduct
Ile kftelay. (Hem, hear.) The right boa. baronet
the lasimber the Dreitwisk told them the conditions
um whisk he dwell esseent to be a member of
the issarnitun. Re said that, if he were appointed a mem-
the m emokeatinstee the state of the army before Sebes-
tughl &odd be sage ems Bat he moor sold a word
nient it beige gime emmmMa. (Hear.) Ho was to be
a sort of ferret es lb* eammilso. (Laissliter.) Now, if
the members of the ammlitlee Ald tut abeam to serve upon
illensoptes the modifies of he being swot, it appeared to
hie Mead= bad
es 111111 Zig others, and he
get shwa men in the house.
mid is
of 114= wiliest be Areieeser,2ll that thil

public littered would not be properly protected without a
secret sionmittee. Bat it should be reeollected that the
eoutinittes was appointed in accordant* with pub-
lic belles sail opinion, and the same public opi-
ates would sot allow it to be stifled, evaded,
trammelled, compromised, or mystified. (Hear, hear )
Those therefore who refused to serve on the committee had

better go off. (Laughter.) Bet he contended that the
object of the committee would be better secured, end less
injustice to individuals committed, by an open then by a
secret committee. (Hear) The eight hoe. gentlemen the
late Secretary at War uid that for himself he was desirous
to have his administration Inquired into. Bouts blame bad
been cast on him. Was that plume to rest upon him, and

was his vindication not to go forth to the pubic; ? No inblic
man had of late years been subjected to so much obloquy
as the Duke of Newcastle, and it was only just and right
that he should have the opportunity of vindicating his con-
duct before that public by whom that obloquy had been
heaped upon him. (Hear, hut.) He thought the only
instruction that should be given to the committee was, that
they should report the proceedings from day to clay, and
thereby save any misconsquetion on the part of the press,
er any others who might be in the room. (Hear, hear.)
Then it was said that publicity might be injurious to the
alliance with France. The answer to that was, thet they
appointed no committee to inquire into are itotaion
which had a bearing upon that &Menu (Hear,
hear.) What the people of this country a4:3:lec.
to know was this : " You sent out 51.00 c.• fin,
troop, to the Crimea-14,000 remain. What nee
become of the rest ? " (ffitar, bear.) That was the single
paint which the public wished to know. (Hear, hear.)
They wanted to know who starved these troops—who re-
fused them shelter, and why disease and death had over-
taken them ? (Hear.) The people did not want the com-
mittee to inquire into the policy of the war. If, indeed,
any witness had refused to give his evidence unless the pro-
ceedings were to be secret, the occasion would have arisen
for coming to the bowie and asking that the committee
might be made secret. But that cue had not arisen, and
the committee bad no difficulty to meet except a little
squabble amongst themselves. The wrongs of which the
people of this country complained were perpetrated in the
face of day and of the world, and they desired that the cause
of these wrongs should be investigated in the face 0 light
and day. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. NAPIER maid, that when honest and hoc .suable
men were appointed a tribunal to conduct an inquiry, and
they declared it to be their deliberate opinion that secrecy
was necessary, he was inclined, however his judgment
might differ from them in the abstract, to senesce to them
the selection of the mode in which they thought fit to eon-
: duct it. For that reason, if the question was carried to a
division, he should feel bound to give his humble vote for
the motion. _ . . .

Mr. CROSSLEY was of opinion that if there was to be a
committee at ell, it should be a public one. Otherwise the
evidence would be published in an incorrect manner.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he voted for inquiry because
he believed it could be made safe and useful. He, there•
fore, thought that it should be strictly limited to their own
army, and their own departments. (lieu.) He did Lot
thing it even necessary that there should be a run on indi-
viduals, and much less that there should be any inquiry
which might endanger their alliance with France.
Mr. BOWYER thought that the public would be Batis-
te's' with no inquiry if part of the evidence were erued
which was one of the reasons put forward by the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield in favour of secrecy. The

danger td the French alliance might be a good argument
against a committee at all, bat it was not a good sullenest
in favour of secrecy. He believed that danger hid bees
eesrmush exaggerated, because the public papers had bees
all Moog discussing the matter; and what resulted from it
was, that the greatest possible advantage had accrued to
them from the services of their French allies. The members
of the committee, if it were secret, might be dispoeed to
talk nonsense and utter imprudent things, which the cheek
of publicity would be calculated to prevent. (Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, in reply, said that, as the proposal be
had made was of as extraordinary nature, and as the instru-
ment which hr had intended the house should permit him
to employ was one not to be lightly put into the bands of
any man, he felt himself precluded from going to a division,
by the feelie.ge that had been expressed. It was a proceed-
ing of such an extraordinary nature as ought to be justified
by the almost unanimous opinion of the house, but he found
that it was almost unanimous the other way. He should,'
therefore, yield to the wish of the house, and conduct the
inquiry in the manner they desired, but he hoped
they would permit him to say a few words in
exculpation of himself and his colleagues. They were all
sincerely bent on • thorough invesfigation. The hon.
member for West Surrey said he looked with a great deal
of suspicion on the words " thorough and Perching investi-
gation." These words did ant imply that the investigation
was to be a wide one; but that when they had determined
on the field they would thoroughly investigate that field.
Those of his colleagues who wished for a thorough investi-
gation believed that secrecy was necessary ; and he thought
it rather suspicious that the great tnejority of the persons
who opposed secrecy were persons who had voted against any
committee at all. The argumeata they employed were arra-
Mau against the appointment of a committee; they appeared
te consider that what had since taken place was a triumph
es their part ; but he would remind them that there was a
homely phrase, " What is sauce for the goose is sauce for
the gander." The moral of that saying bad escaped the
right hon. member for Carlisle—what was good for that
right hon. gentleman was good for him (Mr. Roebuck) also,
but he could not say who was the goose and which the
gander. (Laughter.) In 1844 the right hon. gentleman
had to face a proposition of the hon. member for Finsbury,
who moved for a select committee to inquire into the con-
duct of the Post-office with respect to opening letters. The
right honourable gentleman moved an amendment
to the effect that the select committee should be
a secret one, and in doing so said, " I think
it expedient, following the course of precedents, thst • se-
cret committee shall be appointed for the purpose of con-
ducting the inquiry to the full extent I have stated. It is
of the last importance that the powers to be given to that
committee should be ample; but if a full revelation is to be
made the evidence should not be disclosed. In another
portion of his speech the right hoe. gentleman said diet •
full investigation could not be made before a select com-
mittee, but that moray was necessary. That was exactly
the feeling of the committee—they felt they would
have to deal with delicate questions ; and if persons
should be able to say that the evidence they were
about to give involved the public safety, they would
shelter themselves behind that statement, and escape
inquiry. The committee wanted to take away that
screen, they wasted to have • searching and complete
inquiry, sad to take sway the means of evading it. He be-
lieved the difficulty they apprehended would arise, but as
he was not of the cowardly disposition to which an hoe.
member had alluded, he would go on with the inquiry ; he
thought it would have been most effective in the mode he
had proposed, bat yet he believed that an inquiry such as
the house desired could be carried on in an open committee;
bat as he and hie colleagues wished for a full investigation,
they had proposed what they considered the best means.
It was • mi.take to suppose that the evidence would have
been taken in darkness ; no committee could make a
report without the leave of the house ; that leave was neces-
sary for • select as well as for • secret committee ; if the
committee had been secret it would have been his duty to
ask permission to make their report, and then the whole
evidence would have come at once before the house. It
I was wren to suppose that if an accusation was made babe
a secret committee no one would hear of it till the whale
evidence wee published. The committee, in the exercise of
their discretion, would, wh a charge was made against
a person, send him a copy of the evidence, and ask
him what answer he had to give; that would protect all
parties, and avoid the dangers to which he had alluded.
He believed the inquiry had already done good: those who
had opposed the appointment of the committee would, if
they considered the subject, be forced to admit as much.
They hidden* good by their very determination to appoint
the committee ; and as long as it at, it would be a spur in
the idle of the government, inducing and exciting them to
these reforms which, if the committee had not been nomi-
nated, would never have been proposed. Yielding to the
opinion of the house, he would, with their consent, with-
I draw hie motion. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

The hones then went into a oommittee of supply on the
arinv estimates.
The remaining votes of the series on the army estimates
were agreed to, after a misosllaneons dissuasion. The house
Mies resumed.
The Bzehequer Bills (17,183,0001) Bill passed through
comsittft.

THE PROPERTMYEMBERS. QUALIFICATION OF
Mr. MURROUGH, in moving for leave to bring in a
" bill to abolish the property qualification of members of
parliament," expreesed a hope that the house would, as •
matter of courtesy, allow him to introduce his bill, reserving
the discussion for a subsequent stage.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the motion.
Mr. G. MACARTNEY thought such a bill ought not to
be brought forward except on the authority of her Majesty
government. He did not admit that en such a question the
hon. member was entitled to any courtesy. (Laughter)
Mr. HADFIELD supported the motion. He could set
understand why, when Scotland wu exempted from the
property qualification, Ireland, which was g lly sap-
wood to be a weaker country, should be subject to it.
There was no justice or policy in such a distinction. The
effect of the qualification was to exclude highly qualified
:wens, and even men of genius, from the representative
HENLEY said, that es the question involted in this
bill wee part of the general question of reform, which had
been postpoued till the termination of the war, he hoped the
sodas would not be spud to.
Col. SIBTHORP said, bona of wishing to see the
property qoalifieation abeibilirk be sheald be glad to me it
ten times greeter. (Lsaitster.) Telk of genus l The rasa
who WA seat in that house Minh' have nose property of
his owe W take core et, sad he weakt this Wiled to take
ewe goal ease relies poperty, Tbs Penh of
the liessise, weadtbe that they wadi sus Sid them-
selves la the sesapesy of a amber Owners wise bad not
a shirt snoops this. (Laughter.) Dung the "Mead-
twenty yews girt he lei rat In that bow be had, sulks
after see seenthe hewn gobs dews hill and the slue
of pencernwhp haadadeisd, if this blh were passed,
would be abloom it to sigesseat the ematry than a set of
mum stanagen_
Lord PALUBBSTON (Lw
sa7glicatid, izt
he add *et sent
the ugliness' of the hos. sad nimble who lad
jut spokes, he had some to very nub the ow mobiles.