The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-07 00:00:00

Lord J. EHIMiLL—Of seal,. fuNtesio.emnaittierst
°I theta teeeleineePle. Of the inegletr"m tehnitemise" thee
this: is • ono mid& bitable to ..
•,se three were millawaten, cm was the present mayor
neither
iti
Oldham, and the other wee a meet respected dermal;
toottrogorro. liMottoomosomos.alle eill onewwwdie, •la re lieeemosol 0
sT,
who had been chairman of the bench foe twenty years.
looked to the returns he time Mr. Von had gellelatedto ebe mentaaei sad at
the It°°' Gad Pile" gentlemen with ff nen another times hm wawa mold Ise gi.a. with Wittleeftt
etmaki find that they bad dealt very severely o e
y add oat behalf of the —I have always esastaarep tine 'thuds the btatadiute
•/ fie inienehrwetemehee Re meelabeeceetilea to the production of antagonist's., wimeran they may be. ter the security of
r"""""' had nshra'rf demurred at the onten, Markey, that in edema go have a datable peace we ought to
togarmagoadmee. They
have Austria and Drama, and the states of Germany
use the emerepoudence was ant then complete.
Mr. HEY WOOD could mare the km. and idlest gam- eartt-es to • illemild anew% by which Turkey would be
her that the workpeople themselves did not wish to have v,eured farm appession. I come now, baring
stated these
the melbas/7 fenced shove Senn feet. He could state as genera dews, to the mission with which I was 'barged at
• fast that a gnat number of the aecidents_aoro:meflmootletoe Vettotogieuna.outloomathay
tesoLszi. h,eopAtlhotiotoitootoat appearedt
atoll me on
foolhardissom of the people themselves.. I 1 _
bey
mama very atreeply to Lord Cowley, her Majesty's
the ease at Oldham, ha believed the magistrates had
of the law wee ambassador at Paris—l said. " I shall be able to ascertain
le4 the nome Secrete"' that
"iv
view
what it is that Austria is ready to aerie to. I shall be
eared, aghast's, begged enabled to ascertain at length what it is that Ramie will
tortraieWthaßt RetiOgyWhleLlierbjecticeere sato*** we
pleased= of the OOSOMIO fOf the ebbe et p ; but Ido not think it wfll
le MOM Oak au to make say decision, whatever may be
correepeastmee.
lir. J.O. PRILLIKORE said that if the low was bad etp issienstiense. It will not be possible for me to make may
it ought to be rerealed, and not systematically delated m deifies at Vitus. and that it mast remain for the two
goneameate of Frame and of Great Britain to Melo
thelligveer o.efießtelivYt lull:: twit if the bon. and (abet gentle- altimeedy, whether there are any tome to which they em
wows weight be satiefied with the production of the papers,
_mat on whisk ta.mael. sideva. safe atztotheaounofblooe
opcnoacetwor
far meet his views. WA, air. upon arrivsog atVienna were
theC Col. DUerieNelli intimatedwebeeivitgehee teat that was all he de- armettafikos to ectodact. There was the negotiation to be
madasted in the conference, and in the conference only,
aired, between the throw belligerent powers, and Austria, who had
The motion was negatived by cement.
signed the treaty of Dee. 2.4. That was one part of the
THE LAST AUSTRIAN PROPOSAL. betimes with which I was camped, bat the other part of
Oa the gentle* that the Speaker leave the chair, the business, involving the more important considerations
Mr. M. GIBSON rose is pursuance of a dim, "to ask for perhaps of the two, me to ascertain, by repeated Interviews
he opposition and diseassions, the dews of the Austrian government, aad
eigleeenene from the government relative tot
. - to mamma to have either her assistance in ooncludiag
of her Majesty's ministers to the views of their oollesithet pesos or to have fair terms from her upon which she would
the late British plenipotentiary at the Vienna conferences, makes& ultimatum against Russia. Now, air, a very few
in reference to the phut proposed by Austria to be submitted days after m arrival, so early uthe 7th of March, 1 Ca-
to Russia for the purees* of putting 'an end to Adam cussed with Count Buol, as well as with the French minister
then resident, M. Bourquesey, the various stipulations to
prepooderanee in the Bleak Sea,' as stated in the circular
cease before the deference. Upon the mention of the third
addressed by Count Buol to the diplomatic &gentile! Austria, point we, the French and English plenipotentiaries. declared
dated Vienna, May 23." The hon. member said he was that it appeared to us that the beet solution of that point
from Resale of het
afraid be took a coarse on Monday night in reformat to was to b
tom in the • Black Sea. We a statedlimitation
that if that
this subject which did net harmonise with the feelings of
limitation wen agreed to the general rule of the treaty of
the home. If he committed any breach of the rules of 1841, lamely, the closing of the straits, might be retained.
decorum, he now made an apology for so dole', and he We stated that it would then be possible to withdraw our
wished to say that he did not adopt the Morse which he armies and tests from the Black Sea, Meanie then would
pursued from any desire whatever to disparage the character no longer oust the preponderance of
_Rizaia—there wouoot
ao teapot a standing menace to Tur ey. Count B
of the late commander-in 'chief, or to show anything like in-
so far agreed that he said, " Undoubtedly that is the beet
difference to the motion which had been under cousideration. solution of the third point i undoubtedly the beat security
Lord J. RUSSELL— Sir, lam very glad that the right you eut have is the limitation of the Rumen fleet;" but he
hon. gentleman has now brought forward his remarks on said, "Thure is another solution, and that would be, instead
the coarse which the goverment have pureed, and on the of witekeioll Russia. to strengthen Turkey. Its the
of the Austrim government, that the third poiat
war" which 1 have rem"' at a time when he een receive :ay be carried into effect either in the one mode or the
aa answer. I certainly was surprised when, the other day, other. The proposal that you make is undoubtedly the
on an occasion which I should have thought would have best ; we should be very glad to see it assented to by Russia;
but w•
induced him to refrain from say matter of controversy, be in the conference we shall give it every support,
introduced this topic and made permed charges epithet me. will not say that we do not preserve to ourselves the
power of p • g the other mode, namely, instead of •
Notwithstanding the truth of Mr. Grattan'e remark, that
-- - relationro of the Russian foam, to have a coesterpeise he
gentlemen very often make observations tempted by the the fleet of the dila." So far, sir—and indeed, I map
impropriety of the occasion—(laughter)—l should hardly say, not only so far, but throughout—l have no sem
have thought the right hoe. gentleman would have taken plaint to make, u the right. boo.
ttgoeundheeman gasp
poem the govenment to mute, ot
that opportunity of introducing such a question; but as he
Austria. I think her gionduct—l might ad tide
has brought forward the subject on the motion for going with it, in some respects very great fault—bat I tbdsk
into committee of tnpply, I must own that he is fully en- there has been no treachery aid no bad filth in the matter.
titled to an explanation, sad that the cornsponience which I think she was entitled to say, as a power which had wet
as to war, as a power that was at peace with Rued%
has passed with the Austrian government on this great
"'We will endeavour to seek fora solution of this difficulty
question fitly deserves and obtains the attention of puts- by the attainment of all the four points which we madder
meet. Now, sir, before I enter upon that question, I must necessary for peace, but we do not bind ourselves to tael
say • few words as to the right boa. gentleman's affirmation particular mode of obtaining one of those points. We Wahl
that we have bon disappointed in all our predictions, and oureelvee at liberty to propose' end ,if that other shoat be
hand sufficient, we will not rely solely on that which yam 1
that the objects of the war were such as he was pleased "'repose." Now, I cannot but say that I„thought the As
define them. So far from being disappointed at the
otootriatiovernment were wrong in their suppasitioa that the
events of the weir, I should say that, although the siege second of solution was as good as the first. I stated
of Sebastopol has not had the success whisk we expected objections, and I stated them over and over again, at re-
last year, yet the immediate repulse of Roads from the Pelt." 114'4" with Count
t Bad—objections which are
he made. - Oae objection
,
siege of Sillitria, the evacuation of the Damhiaa provinen obvious enough to the proposition
is, that Great Britain and France might not always be die.
and the consent to abaadea entirely and for ever ail them posed to go to the considerable expense which would be
special treaties which gave Russia a pretest for interferiog necessary, in order to have any fleet in the Black Sea that
in Turkey, are Poetised; far beyond any which I had hoped might be at all reckoned
is, that ai
t was ob
counterpoise to the
e
.-
would be accomplished in so shoot a time. The right hon. Radio fleet Another objection
time by placing Turkey as it were under the im-
patiens° says we stated that Cronstadt would fall last plate protection of those two powers, that
year, end this assertion be founds on the declaration of the would thereby in some respects weaken her position. Bat
First Lord of the Admiralty, that he bad no ends' Intel- a third objection, which I still think a very streets one,
brace of the fact. How he could have founded wag that three or fad fleets—the fleets. of Turkey, assisted
by France, England, and Austria on toe one Side, and the
his statement en that reply of the First Lord of lest of Russia on the other— would have all the appearance
the Admiralty lemat a loss to imagine. But the right of a competition for preponderance, and would thereby
hon. gentleman goes on to say that we proposed the restore- weaken the general opinion of the solidity and the dura-
tion of Poland arid the independence of Hungary as two of time of the peace. Discussion went on, as the house has
the objects of the war. The restoration of Poland we have seen by the papers which have been produced—discussion
never promised—we have saver held out a hops of it—and went ahead the Austrian government supported thoroughly
we have sways considered thee if it was to be accomplished Count Bud; sad the French minister and plenipotentiary
at all, it could only be accomplished by Austria, (Rear, supported with great force of argument the propositions
hear.) 1 have been on habits of intimacy with many Poles, which were made (or limitation, and also for makingeihe
and, edam they have spoken to me Cu this subject, I have Bleak Sea a commercial sea. I should say, with regard to
said to them, "If Austria should take part, and coot the last proposition, that it was not cordially adopted by the
eider the restoration of Poised advisable, you may Austrian government, but die did support that which my
then tionceive some hopes of that event, but do instructions were to oppose. The right hon. gentleman,
not imagine that Er gland and France will alone strangely enough, having read several edracte from Count
undertake to atecireplPh such en object." I also said to a Buol'a circular, said he would not read the particular pro-
Person with whom say one au" be Prowl to be solosinteds positions which Austria made, but he left it to the house to
—I mean Priem Czartoryski—" I have no conception that infer that those propositions were the same that had
England end Prance would attempt to restore Poland, and been made by Rum. Now, I think that • very few
if they would not attempt it, I think it would be weeds will show that whether they were satisfactory or
a crime for them to hold out hopes with regard to it." unsatisfactory, adequate or inadequate, they were
Then with regard to the independence of Hungary I must totally different from those of Russia. Her proposal to
say it would have been most prepesteroua for us Russia at the time I was at Vienna was that the fleets of all
negotiating with Austria, asking the alliance of Austria, the powers should have liberty to go through the Straits.
entering into conferences with Austria, to have said The proposition that Russia made atter I left Vienna was
that one of the objects of this war was to effect that the deging of the straits should be maintained as a
the iadependeon of Hungary. No such notioa was ever principle, and that Turkey should have the liberty of call.
put forward by her Majesty's government. The right hon. ing to her allies to enter in met of danger. Now that pro-
gentleman say& that he should find great difficulty in ex- position does not at all resemble those two which I will not
plaiuing to a labouring man the object of the war. I have argue, for they have been dimmed by the house on a
no doubt the right hoe. gentlemen is right, that be could former madam, and the house by a very great majority
not explain it, bat it does so happen fortunately that the were of opinion that they were bad. That proposal was
labouring men of this city, the artisans thr.ughout the founded on the emend proposal that I have mentioned,
country, have had all aionifei clear conception of what the dint Count Buol made to us when we first had an interview
object of tha war was. They have known that it was to with him. He proposed in the first plate that the rule of
prevent the further aggrandisement of Rawls, and to main- 1841 should be maintained, but that it should be
taia the integrity and independence of Turkey. That was maintained with exceptions in favour of the allies,
the object of the allies. It is an object 13 easily understood but with no exception in favour of Ramis. Thus
that I must say the mass of the people of this country have according to that principle—and I certainly very much
never dece:yed themselves with regard to it. But now doubt whether Russia was at that time prepared to adopt it-1
as to the accomplishment of such an object I there would have been the power on certain occasions of
must confess that before we entered ate the rending armed vessels—of sending ships of the line—of 'I
war, since we entered into the war, and up to France, Great Brit an and Austria into the Black See, and
the present time, I have always though it an object of there would hove been no power on the part of Russia of
very great difb ilty. and only to be stained by great either sending her tinsels from the Black Sea into the Medi-
eateifices. I ban thought a i because, as every one may terramer,„ or from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea.
perceive, it is no secret to say so, Russia is enormously The straits, in short, would bate been entirely closed to
powerful. Her population is animated and strengthened by Russia, but they would not have been closed to powers
the repeated successes she has had, by the effects which she which had not establishments in the Black Sea. The pm-
ha' male for a century p. et, by which she has made great Mutat mode in which that proposition was to be carried
additions to her territory, while Turkey, on the contrary, into effect was this—l do not conceive it was a proposition
has been becomiei weaker, so much so, that when the war of Austria to be conceded by her allies, of course it was not
began the armed force of Turkey was only one-tenth of that finally settled as to its details—what she proposed was
of Russia. But further than due, there was this great die- that suppmag—which seemed to have been ascertained by
catty, that more than one-tenth of the subjects of Turkey the English admiral, Sir Edmund Lyons—that Russia had
were of the religious faith of the Emperor of Russia, and six ail of the line in the Black See, that when she had that
bad been taught uiidnausly to look to the Emperor of number, and 113 more, England, France, and Austria should
Russia for protection, and had been alienated from their each maintain two frigates in the Black Sea, and have the
ellegiance by every kind of intrigue, and every kind of soli- power of relieving them from time to time, but if Rada
citati n Well, sir, it has always appeared to me that the dould Menus her forme—for instance, if Russia should
object I have stated was difficult, and I think I could in no augment her fleet from mix sail of the line to eight, that
long time state in what respect it was difficult. I may refer then half the number maintained by Russia might be main-
to matters which, both in war lid in peen, make the tamed by the three allied powers—name) y that while Tar-
attainment of the chject difficult. Some persons of high key would eight mail of the line, as equlileet to eight sail
military authority thought, at the beginning of the war, that of the line of Reeds, England would nave four and Frazee
it would he quite cufficieat, and would be a mat effective four at the game time. It was proposed at the sane time
means of defence, for Turkey, if lines were drawn from the that. if Russia should continue to augment her force—for in-
Black Sea to the Sea of Marmon, somewhat resembling the stance, Uses should have 12 sail of the line, that each of the
famous lines of Torres Vain', and that English and French maritime powers should have six sail of the line, that
soldiers should occupy those lines. Now, the circumstances Austria should of course have her own naval force, and
were totally different. The Doke of Welliegton setabliged that they should maintain an equal force to that of Remit.
has army behind the lines of Torras Viceless because the But, in addition to this, Count Bud was ready, as I was
people of Portugal was generally opposed to the invader told, verbally, the day before I left Vienna, to agree to a
Hai the Ru'sisn army evened the Balkan and got within treaty which he mentions in this circular between Aestria
20 miles of Constantino:As she might have had the means of Great Britain, and Francis, by which they should aseg
raising iumneetions among the Christian subjects cf those agree to guarantee the independence and integrity of Ter
provinces. And now let us see one of the difficulties that key. That was • point upon which I had laboured during
would occur during peace. We have bad some discussion the time I bad been at Vienna. When I first saw Count
on former occasions with regard to the Principalities. Bud, I told him my general vitae, besides those which
Those Principalities are inhabited by Christians, and it hat I have mentioned with regard to the limitation of the fleet.
been said, and naturally enough, make • Christian which were according to my instruction' but I said, I
state there, and thereby make a barrier against Russia. But think, before th whole of that transaction had deed, it
the Russian party is so strong in those provinces, would be very desirable that we should have some kind of
there arc so many parties who are bound to Russia by the security for the future by an alliance between the
gifts they have received, the-. if you spade an independent three powers. Count Bnol was of opinion it would be better
state there, you would only be strengthening Russia, and to have an article in the general treaty making Russia •
enabling her to carry on her projects. Considering them party to that guarantee. I differed with him in opinion,
things, and from many other considerations of a like nature, but he maintained his own opinion es I maintained mine;
it has always appeared to me that the end of this war must but, however, as I said, the day before I left Vienna I was
be attained by not merely a treaty between the belligerents informed that Count Buol bad come to the cpinioo, es eug-
an the one side—namely, France, Great Britain, and jetted in this antler—that it would be desirable that the
Terkey, on the one had, and Rued& on the other—but it three powers should enter into • mutual treaty for,
must be a general treaty in which the Powareof Europe the defence of Turkey, thereby securing her independence.
slid' take part, and in which they shall give their security Of coarse it was understood that Ruda might be a party to
for the maintenance of the independence and integrity of that treaty, and thereby there would be • greater security
Turkey. Now, if I have taken that view, it was obvious for its being kept. Now, it appeared to me, I confess, that
that I should consider the ea-operation of Austria of the omitting several details more or leas important, every
highest value. That the co-operation of Austria would be one of teens, which I not mention, certainly not'
of great value during war no one will deny. If at the of a satidetory kind, that thee. two prepaid's,
tangent moment the Austrian army were adesseiug into do contain • security for Turkey for the future. It winged
Bessarabia, it le clear that some 40,000 or 50,000 Russian to se that if we had this arrangement with regard to the
soldiers would be unable to marsh to the Crimea admiesion of ships of war, that Russia, ets far from increasing
And if she was operating on the side of Gal he Stet to the size to which she did before the commence.
lids, that again would prevent Russian forces from uses' of the war, would oantioutily abstain from maintalo-
being sent from Poland to the seat of war. But, sir, lag more than the six Alpe of the line which she had, re-
I believe that in the arrangements to be made with regard piaelas them, of course, if she thought proper, by larger
to peace, the alliance and co-operation of Austria is at feat and *sager vessels, but that she would not attempt to
necessary. The pathway by which Russia would seed beta a Met fleet in the Bleak Sea, because I am pot-
her landed armies to the attack of Turkey ie across the snallei melting would so diminish the opinion of the power
Danube, by the aide of the Austrian provisoes. and through eif ficasela in the Eut s., the observation that other fleets,
the Balkan. That is the way by which on more than one red T
c the fleets of Femme and Great Britain, were
ca ocsion she has attempted to invade Turkey, and that is fa the Black Sea es a Meek and counterpoiseal M otsiallp
the r oad by which oa the lest metegiou the Karim army .On theether heed the Water m the land side,the smear
reached Adrianople. But if Austria is rimed in alliance city plait the Mealiele of Ras& Irj_ her armies, /Mike 1110
with Francs and treat Britain top &iv theli ewes- the Mews et ISMI awl VA ;weed be secured by team
ax,..• -. p oppose suck aggreados ',4 fora of seam:; if France octal Math and the emeammeiese that no sooner
owl i7,r.iiit Britain on their side have sufficient nteethe t°_, ailli attempt to do what she bad dine :eitlihe these two
mid force of Russia, we make it the in:
typos UM ins.. sps LefinosiZobst, Se Merry the predates of Tailtelr than it
pis.,;;, to asetatain peter. Aced here I may say that I quite 1"" 0 Ilikelereeioa et war efiai.-"" ...her IT, la the
agree with the seam of the extract quoted by the Ms. Zrelo Isom eltaanfp. I @mainly thought seat a=
„moue fee the Wee Riding that the best security for pease disss Pfeil eg ematee Ina isferior to the pled of
ta the tamest to midatafa mem dew whisk ine bed MeeMbed, yet that it would n't I Mai
M. COSIM—The rely leserity. g yo,-ludlag ey wet that would be 02Dourable• dr Is