The Express.
London, England, 1864-04-12 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAT.

Europe. The observance of the French minister upoethis bear.) While he ooneurrall whit his noble teased the
despatch was somewhat recestkable. K. Denys de Lheye Secretary of SW* he couldd p help exprneing an opinion
observed that as to the rethossibility that would be incurred thin such treatise as that of 1852 were =expedient. He did
by imperiling the peace of Europe, Prince Gortchakoff not cast the slightest llama cia the able seri opposite who
was willing to wean that reeptulity ; bat he (the concluded it, but be gravely doubted whether such ar-
French minister) did an wish to provoke leagerants, which were looked upon ea panatela, though
another answer of the men sort, to be received they were not so Ia fad, would not entangle this country
with the same indifference. He (the Feel of Derby) in quarrels with other Miens. He sgteed that this country
thought that M. Drone de Lhtiya had acted in the matter should interfere in the affairs of others as seldom
with much more dignity thaa the noble earl opposite. as it could, and also that when we did interfere, oar
(Hear, hear.) Another inatians of the amount of influence authority should be eaforoml.
which the country, nada the management of the noble Earl GRANVILLE said he apprehended that it would
earl, had obtained in &trope. Sir A. Bochum& wrote to not be necessary to say anything in reference to the
the noble earl on the 14th December, just about the time motion, foe he believed it had been rejected by both sides of
when the noble lord opposite (Lord Wodebouse) left the house. Bet it appeared to him that either it should have
Berlin on his hopeless visit to Copenhagen. He said that been shown that bey Majesty's government bad been so es-
Le regretted that the recommendations be bad made to M. Mealy neglectful of the honour and interests of the coo=
Bismuk had failed to obtaio compliance with the that they ought to be expelled from office, or that it
wishes of her Majesty's goveroment. Another re- have been better not to discuss this question, and thereby
martinet instance of the noble earl's oorrespon- try to damage theeoverameat in the eyes of foreign powers.
deuce was that in which ho excused himself twin Now, instead of doing that, it would have been better to
sewing ships to the mouth of the Eder. on the ground give their exertions greater weight. Hut the noble lord
of the difficulty of modem ships to the Baltic. Bat he (Grey) bad forgotten to do that which be thoue
wondered that passage had not been omitted from the you'd have been obvious to every
despatches in which Sir A. Buchanan mid that there noble earl opposite (Earl Derby) had pointed out
was an absolute persuasion that England would not, under difficulties in regard to the conference, but though
any circumstenosa, interfere, and that this conviction de- be had read through all the despatches he bad
prived her counsels of all weight. la another insane of, found a very small flaw in the correspondence. The
the correspondence the noble earl had expresses.' himself to noble earl's criticisms were very small, but he said the
the effect that if he had not mistaken the opinion of government had been perpetually spreading • cobweb sad
parliament and the feeling of the country, an invasion of j never catching • fly. Now he (Earl Granville) denied that.
Sleowig might lead to motive interference on the part The goverment had secured certain declarations as re`
of Greet Britain. This neaten= revealed the weakness of (girded the treaty of 1852 end the =Unity of Denmark
her Majesty's government. It showed that in fact they and he believed it was the opinion of France and of Austria,
poisoned no policy, that they came to lea= the opinion of as it was of her Majesty's government, that there
parliament in order to shape their judgment es to what ought to be an armistme before proceeding further.
course they should pursue, sod that they looked to public I The noble earl had dawn some inferences which
opinion to be guided by what they should do, instead of Ibe denied, for be could not find anything
adopting an independent line of action. As regarded the in the correspondence which gave • pledge to Denmark
four powers, there was no intention on the part of France that she should receive assistance, and as to giving the
to pl.ce herself with regard = Germany in any =bertha° a I German powers to understand that this country would net
dignified position. France had declared that she must Igo to war, he would defy the noble ear: to show that any
Lahore to • course of action which would be more such assurance were given. (Hear, beer-) The Palma
in accordance with the dignity d the great powers, showed that Francs and Rani& would not agree to give
(Earl Atria.: That was with regard to Poked.) He (Earl , material aid to Denmark. The noble earl said France wee
of Derby) said that France naturally had strong feelings in I prepared to give material aid, but be thought it was clear
bi half of Poland, and England was animated by equally that from the beginning Frans was determined not to do so.
strong Danish sympathies. He did not call upon the noble No doubt oertain parsecs in Ummany had induced a feeling
earl to make war for Poland, bat if be did sot men to to arise among 40,000,000 of people in favour of •
make war for Poland, be reconimseded him in future not I war—which, in his opione, was a most unjustifiable on—
to call upon the great powers, by virtue of a upon a small country, end probably that feeling was
treaty, to falsify their obligation under that treaty. increased be the knowledge that Frames wee determined
He this Earl of Derby) regretted that the occupation of not to join in a war, and that Russia could not separate
Holstein had been accompanied by scenes of ferocity and herself from Germany. The able earl (Grey) had referred
barberism—(bear, hear) —and be feared that the Prussian to the unwillingoess of the people to go to war—
army had not got rid of those Wets which bad given the Earl GREY—I did nothing of the kind.
Duke of Wellington so munch trouble in 1818. That demote. Earl GRANVILLE would be glad to know what the
Sion, that bombardment of Sonderborg, was marked by noble earl bad stated ; but, at any rate, he seemed to have
scenes of inhumanity and ferocity, especially if it was tree, • ye= quixotic Idle that this count,.l7 ought te go to
as he heard it related, that after the town had been vex on every 0000eiDles although it nag DOOR the pulley
laid in ruins, arid the firing had ceased, and of en statesmen for fifty Years Peet we to
when the wretched inhabitaute had found their way go to woe noon it were urgent and neesseerf-
back to seek amongst their overthrown dwellings for some That was the policy of Mr. Canning, who declared that the
=meets of their lost properties, they found that a trap had cause must not only be just, bat urgent and expedient, fee
been laid for them, end that a heavy fire of shells was war. Such we. the language of the noble earl's father, and
opened upon their suffering and inoffensive people. (Hear, of the Earl of Abeideeo, &edit bad been the foreign
hear.) He hoped that upon this 0011111100 the government of all statesmen—they had all been noxious fee PeoceP7lZ
would be enabled to say that theaucouns of this matter bad he was surprised that the noble earl should now twit the
been greviously exaggerated, and that Prussia had sot cast government for not going to war oa behalf d Denmark.
an ineffaceable stain upon her arms from the atrocities with He wished it to be perfectly understood that the govern.
which the execution bad been accompanied. (Cheers.) He man were desirous to maintain peace. The governmeat
wished be could say be thought that there was any great were unfettered by any engagement of any Bert.
probability of the matter being brought to • prosperous and they ware thereto= at liberty to take airy
issue. He feared that the conference would not as. came which might be beet for the count"y.
nimble under very favourable auspices ; because but they would not depart from the policy which they bag
the engagements of 1851 and 1852, which preceded the pursued before sod since the meeting of parliament.
treaty, might very properly be made tin subject of a cootie Earl GREY explained that Ina objectioa to the viaduct
rence. Yet the treaty of 1852 was an act to which all the of the government was not that it had been too warlike, bat
great powers were parties, and which could not so readily be that what had been does was inexpedient, and would be
reopened. He also wished to express his satisfaction that likely to involve this country in a war at a future time. It
the noble earl had made use of the words " the indepeo. we bad taken a more decided attitude in the first instance
dance" as well as of " the integrity” of Denmark, for he (the we should have rendered attack unlikely, and have been in
Earl of Derby) much feared that arrangements might be • politica to speak to the powers of Europe with greater
made which would preserve the integrity of the Danish mo. weight, authority, and effect.
Baran, yet seriously interfere with theindepoodenceof Deo. Earl RUSSELL said he understood that the Premien
nark, H e hoped thatnouodue pressure would beplacedby her , government had given • general notice that Seodertorg woe
Majesty's government on either party, and that the 'bole I liable to be bombarded as • part of the fortress of DuppeL
of their proceedings would teed to secure fair and equitable Very naturally the people of Soederborg did not act on
terms for both aides. He wished he could feel the same , that general notice. He believed it was insufficient, and
coofidecce with regard to some delis other powers, and the that the Prussians should have given 24 bourn' notice of
motives and objects with which they would enter into the I their intention to bombard the plan, as required,by the
conference. Above all he could wish that the conference usages of war.
had not been delayed so long, sod that if an armistice could ' The motion was then withdrawn, and their lordships ad-
out be obtained before it met, the very earliest period should joursed at a quarter to 11 o'clock.
be fixed for the meeting of the conference, end for settling
without the loss of 48 hours the preliminary terms co which
a rennin should be put to this bloody sad destructive
war. He did justice so the motives which actuated the'
noble lord throughout the whole of the correspondence ; I
but be could not conceal his conviction that by the course
he bad taken, by the strength of his remonstrances and the
feebleness of his 'aims, he had confirmed the impression
which bad prevailed throughout Europe that we had ceased
to be • great power, that our political and military position ,
had been made entirely subordinate to in mid core- i
mercial interests, and that, however Zillitabluster, there
was not the slightest neon to expect that we should coo-
tines to exineine any iagneedlte control over the affairs of
Europe. (Chem.)
Lord WODEHOUSS aid, /swim been frequeetly
alluded to on moons; of the part which he had takes
in then transactions, he wished to say a few words. The
noble earl who had just set down referred to the assuranne
which he said, although not directly given, might have
been inferred from the language which he held at Copes.
hapn—neuranose that the Daaish government might ex.
pact the support of the government of this country it they
followed their advice. The beat proof that the Danish
government could not have understood that from his lan-
guage was to be found la a despatch from Sir Augustus
Paget, io which be dated that the Danish minister completed
to him that there was no premise of support on the part of
England, even if Germany continued her aggression., His
(Lord Wodeliouse's) instruction were, not to give any such
promise, and be had certainly adhered to them. Her Ma-
jesty's government declined to give the Danish government
any promise of support, although they advised them to j
make certain conoessiora to Germany His own sympathies
were certainly not on the German side ; but having been
valued/id by his noble friend (Earl Russell) to
examine the constitution of November, he came to
the conclusion that it ought to be revoked. Ultimately
the Danish government consented to follow the advice
which was gives, but unfortunately they congested too
Lie. Indeed, throughout the long negotiations which bed
taken place daring the lut four or five years, all the con- ,
cessions made by Denmark were invariably too late to be of
any on. Whilst no nun could admire more than be did the
courage acid coostency of the Danish satin, he
mot say he thought they had not bees well
advised by the government who presided over
them. In the first place, the Danish government
attempted more than the power of Denmark could possibly
accomplish. They endeavoured to bring Sleswig into akar
110100 with Decroark, looking epos that as esssetial to the
independesood Denmark, but bedmot wandered sufficiently
the tact that they bad entered into acipierones with Ger-
many which, omen and inconvennot as they were, it was
desirable to fulfil, lint they should have further coediting
impod upon them. The opinion which be had held, and
which eshe Pow held moor stroterly through the light of
emits, was that it would have been far better for the Dinka
government to have made timely concessions and entered
into negotiating while in possemicia of Shawl& than to have
provoked a war and been compelled to enter into molls-
Coes when Sleawig was in pommies of the German powers.
He admitted tbet the conduct of the German powers had
been marked by great duplicity as well as by violence; but
notwithstanding that, he could not help thinking that lithe
Danish government bad followed the advice tendered to it,
it would have had a fair prospect of obtaining ea
interference of other powers before the occupation
of Sleswig. His noble hind (Earl Grey) had
expressed his 'lapels* that in his (Lord Wodebousies)
'creations with M. Bismarck, he bad not made use of a
particular argument. He himself joined in that regret, as
the arguments which he did use produced very little effect. !
(Wisner.) The troth wee, that the Preemie& government I
materially changed its policy at the last moment, after the !
death of the King of Denmark. Great excitement
prevailed in Germany, and the Prussian govern•
molt, alarmed at the democratic feeling which
had arisen, apparently thought that the beet way out ,
of the difficulty wai to attack Deamirk. The noble earl
who hail just sat down pointed out most forcibly that it
eel a great mistake to suppose that the engagement. of
1,61 and 1852 were in any way to be connected with the
treaty of 1852. The treaty of 1852 was entered into by the
great power of Europe, and no referent". was made in it
engagement.tbe eugagemen o 1851 and 1652. By the treaty alone
were the great powers bound. He would now say • few
words upon the difficult question as to what might or might
tot have been done to prevent war. In &Ending to the
subject he could riot conceal from himself that their position
was materially injured by the policy which was pursued
with regard to Poland. Whoa that policy was wider dis-
cussion in that house, it appeared to him that serious on-
sequences were likely to ensue if, after enter* oa • come
Of policy in conjunction with Austria and France, we were
compelled to draw beck. and thus to weaken the
geed understanding which existed between this
country and Franoe—en understanding which he
deemed mential, particularly in the present slate
of Ligon, to the maintenance of treatise and of the
ielance of power. He always thought that it was not pro-
bable that Russia would yield to any mere remonstrant' ;
and in his opinion it would have been far better for this
•'i intro to have confined itself to a protest, and not exposed
Itself to a rebuff. He hoped that in the can of Denmark
thee would now obtain the foil co-operation of France,
without which he should despair of seeing the question
satisfactorily settled. If that co-operation should
not be obtained, and the conference should fail
to settle the question, a grievous shock would, he
tbotetht, have been given to the whole system under
the Protection of which the treaties of Europe existed, sad
were preserved. Those treaties were preserved through the
r ecen and understanding which existed between
IL.. great powers, and once let that concert and
~.ielerstanliog be permanently impaired, and Europe
wound be thrown into a state of anarchy. He
coul,l not agree with the observations of the noble awl
P.m.), but with his noble friend the Secretary of State
that it would be unwise to plunge this country in a war
PLere its iotereets were cot clearly concerned. There ware
L. interests of this country nor obligations which made it
"'muse for them to go to war for Denmark, and it should
1,, considered that if the conflagration were once
teem it might go on to a very serious extent. (Hear,

HOUSE OF COMMONS. —MONDAY, Aram 11.
The SPILIZZ took the chair et 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER,

Mr. Caauvratt. took the oaths and his slat upoa his re
election for the city of Oxford.

for • u'ect committee. The Cluaieller el Mialiethdapier ,
had thought proper to make glare iseputedeas mph& ilic
iatia‘ institutime ' • batmen assembeg.that the societies
mentioned by the eight hoe. esetlemse bed hoes acindueted
in the manner suggested, ise (Mr. ATftwinifinided ad Z
fact formed any reason for this bill. It seemed to him
: the huts, rightly esosidered, weak Mad es an
conclusion. In respect to the question of mewing' haVir•
dinned that the Poet-office lamp Banks Bill was a great
i seeseew The feet was that the mjary dime to the gsoeral
leavings beaks by that measure bad sot been compensated
for by the asemare itself. Lu 185 d, whi:uncaLStatioa
which had existed against the strings banks y was
I put an end to, the depreits in the amounted'
to 36,200,0004, and from that period up to 1860,
being
only two years, there was an teaser of about
5,000,0001. What had been the result tar the Chassidim
of the Exchequer had declined to take upon hie shoulders
the responsibility of securing the depoeita to the there-
, holders, the right hoe. gentleman =nag in his miod the
' establishment of rival institution in the shape of post-office
manage banks. In 1860 the gross capital to the anew i
lbanks was 41,258,0004, and in 1863, only three yeas, after-
wards. the amount, instead of lucressing, had fallen of by
21,000/., the amount then in the bank Wog 41,237,0001.
The danger of such legislation as this was not merely in the
present but ia the pomade future with regard to the sue-
' cosi of the Posteffice Savings Banks. Let those barks
have such an accumulated capital as could be felt in the
I money market—sty 40,000,0001. maids on demand, or
the amount held by the other sanep banks—end he would
restore to predict that it would be in the power of any
man, however insignificant or unimportant, at a time wheat
the wealthy were getting 5 and 6 per cent. foe their money,
to raises cry that the poor ware only receiving two-and-a-
. Mill per wet, and that cry would be re-echoed throughout
the country in such a way that hankers and merchant. I
would be reedy to go down on their knees before the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and beg of him to make
the interest three or four per cent., in order tot
prevent the consequences which would necessarily
follow from the payment of so enormous
a sum as he bud mentioned. The danger incident to this'
mode of legislation was that it brought the people face to
facie with the government, without any of those interm•- I
dish moral influences which the old savings banks exer-
cised, bat in the case of those institutions there were legal
restrictions which prevented such • contingency aa be had
' described. He was surprised that the Chancellor of the '
Exchequer had made no reference to the efforts of working
men to improve the condition of their fellows. It was
said by Adam Smith that the higher you earned organised
industry the greater might be the degradation and misery '
of the people ; end that result would have been seen in
England but for the eforte of men who associated them-
selves
together for the purpose of having labour respected, '
and compelling employers to conduct their busineee with
some regard to moral restrictions. it was • pity
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he wished
to commend he measure to the whin classes,
spoke In a manner so disparaging of one of the most mem
Oily, intelligent, and high Minded of that portion of the
community. He regretted that the right hon. gentleman
had sot made • more ample and frank apology there be had
yet done in regard to the error iota which he had fallen as
to Mr. Potter and the men who had worked with him. The
riot boo. gentleman had spoken of friendly societies as
subsidized by the state by the payment of considerable
beauty, but if they received • higher rate of interest than
now prevailed, that was owing to the errors of his predeoce-
son in office, who whoa the rate of interest was high, had
stipulated to give • certain high rate without specifying
that the arrangement was only temporary. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer also said that these societies were sub-
sidised by exemption from taxation, but as they dealt in
infinitesimal panellise, he thought they were justly
relieved from the stamp duty and ether taxes,
because those would have operated upon them as an ep-
premive burden. The right boo. gentleman farther alleged
that these 'esthetician were badly managed, sad wished to
establish • model institution of his own, leaving the 20,000
which already existed throughout the country to accident
and the mercy of circumstances, on the ground that compe-
tition and free trade would bring about a cure. That was a
dangerous doctrine to accept. If they examined the old
savings banks carefully it would be found that there were
specific grounds of mismanagement, which if removed the
securities and advantages desired would osecosarily follow.
Fire, it was said that friendly societies bad not accumu-
lated sufficient capital to meet their liabilities. He panted
that ; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer maid he bad bees
able to coestroct a table far worlds' men which would work
of itself free from all risk and danger, and what was thereto
prevent the House of Commons making that table the basis
of these insurances? It was next said that people suffered
in consequence of lapsed policies, but the Chancellor of the
Exchequer seemed to have forgotten that two systems were
now in operetioe, under one of which nothing was returned
if a policy lapsed, while under the ether a certain sum was
returned ; bat in the case of the latter • larger payment bad
to be made for the insurance or annuity. He defied the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose any system by
which a person could get back money once paid unless
the premium was high in proportion. It was also alleged
that the wet of the usanagemoot of these institutions was
very great ; hut while admitting that, he was afraid it was
an evil which it was impossible to avoid in minute Manna-
tioos amongst the people. They could not persuade
that it was for their interest to take their pence to people
sumacs office, and they preferred being called only agents,
which involved • charge of 25 per cent. Again, it was said
that the small friendly societies conducted their besieges is
I public-henries; bat that was a difficulty the liOlatore
could remove. If they passed • law making it UMpl to
conduct their business in public-houses, they would at once
entirely put so and to the system. Mr. Tidd Pratt
had expressed his opinion on friendly societies, but
i the fact was, that that gentleman, though of great
!ability and most attentive to his duties, was quite
incapable, from want of moral influence, to exercise
that authority over them which he ought to do. It seemed
to him (Mr. Ayrton) that there were other remedies for the
evils pointed out than that proposed by the right boo.
geatience. Mr. Tidd Pratt suggested that the supervision
of such societies should be delegated to the boards of
guardians Huron/bout the country. A bill with that object
1 was introduced in the House of Lords, but it could not pro-
teed as it was connected with taxation. He (Mr. Ayrton)
ibelieved that such a measure might be so moulded as to
become most =dal without adding much to the local ex-
penditors. The object of that measure ought to be ex-
*hied by Mr. Tidd Pratt in a select commit-
; tee before they embarked on this measure of centralization.
It was mud that there was room enough for everybody,
because there were • vast number of persons who might
effect assurances of this kind. It had been stated that
there were nine millions of pergolas whose lives might be
insured under this act. If there was to be thin immense
eaten of insurance, what would be the amount of orgazisa-
Um which would be necessary to manage it ! In his opt-
aim the proper course for the government to adopt was to
enemerage the people to have associations of their own.
What they ought to do was to have • searching inquiry into
the scope of this bilL It was sot necessary to inquire into
the misdoing, of any insurance societies. And why should
thee not be this inquiry 7 The measure did not press ; it
did not matter whether the bill were passed three months
hence or twelve months berm He did not desire sedates*
retisittioand:r
ttohterionagbteat.billowttiethoonntgriNy,behe
eoltlidhior
ered
hostile to the friendly societies, but it was on • different prin-
ciple from the present bill.
Mr. HUBBARD said he believed one great cause of the
oppositionhia to th
did neotliVl vraitimtlat it wee
real p brought
urposes adis under •
: ions
There was much in the bill that ought to gemmed itself to
the attention of the house. It was undesirable that
government should interfere with trading companies ; bat,
'on the other hand, there were some functions which no
'persons could fill so well as • government office' and no
security that could be given by any society was equal to the
government security. If the government thought they
meld swept the responsibility and carry out the
without endangering the tbianees of the state, he processee
should not object, and he thought there would be ids
objection to the bill if the rate of interest paid by the
government were only the same as they paid for deposits in
the Post-office savings banks, namely, 2) per cent.

Colonel SYKES said he had presented petitions both for
and against the bill, and it was natural that he should
pause before he gave his vote. It appeared:to him that the
question should be discussed dispassionately by • committee.
He was quite sure it would be to the advantage of the
working classes to get the government security, because the
government would be able to pay. He should vote for the
amendment.

Mr. T. HANK EY said they were asked to go into COlll.
mines on the merits of the bill, and u to how the friendly
societies were affected. He could not vote for going into
committee, for he objected to the bill altogether upon prin-
ciple. He thought there was great danger in this bill, sod
there was great danger of overloading the Poet-office de-
pertinent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if
they carried the motion of his hon. friend the house would
in ite dinged.= name a competent number of gentlemen to
form the select committee, and would probably appoint him,
asithe authorof the bill, • member of that select committee,
and be should have the opportunity of giving more freely
then be could to the house such information relating
to the mode by which they should endeavour
to work the bill u it would be in his power
to afford, having probably the assistance of such
officers of the government uhe might ask for on his own
responsibility. Bat after the members of the select com-
mittee bad been nominated a further question would arise—
that the committee should have power to send for persons,
papers, and records, and upon that would arise the ques-
tion whether the committee was to be • committee to con-
seder the details of the bill, or whether it was to be a com-
mittee of general inquiry into the subject of the bill. He,
therefore, could not agree to that mode of proceeding. (If
course the committee would be bound to hear all parties,
and that was a kind of investigation which It was perfectly
impossible for him to undertake. In the first place, it
would amount to • virtual abdication of his office an minister
of finance if he were to become the organ of the house in
conducting an investigation of that sort. And further,
great inconvenience would arise from that investigation, for
which he was not prepared to be responsible.
The committee would, is point of fact, become
• committee of investigation into these societies,
and for the result of the investigatioe her Majesty's govern-
ment were not prepared so be responsible. Having said so
much on that point, he would make two or three observa-
tion@ in referents to what hod fallen from the member for
the Tower Hamlets. He was bound to ray that be had
never known • case before the case of this bill which was