The Express.
London, England, 1862-07-29 00:00:00

EVENING, JULY 29, 1862.

friend once thought this year we should receive 1,2'i0,000, but
be believed be Wee notof that opinion now. From all amount,.
the =Rival= bad not increased, except toe Mall extent. i
The expectation of obtaining Indian cotton was really very
slight; 1011 it was not likely that America. could she
settle her disputes to-morrow, would be able at once to re-
sume her old supply. The war had become one against
slavery, and it was obvious that America could not return
to the position which she used to occupy. With such •
prospect before them it would, therefore, be folly for the
guardians of unions to burden themselves with the yearly
payment of interest on loans. He must candidly confess
that he did sot know whet the result of the present crisis
would be. The manufacturers had kept their mills at work
at a lose—in fact, the manufaetured article bad actually in
some cases fetched as much as 3d. per lb. less than the raw
cotton. He could not allow that the manufacturers
had reaped the whole beaelit of the trade's past prosperity.
In his opinion the landowner, of the cotton district. had
had an equal benefit ; for there had been instances in which
the value of the land had been increased seven-fold. It
would only be just and equitable, therefore, if they ware
called upon to sustain their share of the present burden.
Mr. VILLIERS observed that the greatest possible dif-
ference of epinion'existed ;tato the best mode of meeting the
emergency. Some hon. gentlemen bad altered their views
since the introduction of the measure ; but after the best
consideration be bed 'peen able to give the subject, • rate in
aid would be the preferable method of giving assistance
to overburdened unions. He thought there would
be something equitable in calling on the county
to assist the distressed district within it. He confessed
that since he had turned his attention Male subject he had
been much surprised to find the number of persons living
on weekly wages who contributed to the poor rate. A rate
in aid would thereforebetoagrest attest contributed by the
operatives to relieve their distressed brethren, and thus very
little loss of independence would ensue. He agreed that
relief by loans would be more immediate in its operation,
but it would be attended with much future inconvenience ;
and it would be open to the charge of a wan tof careful manage-
meat, which wasso novel in the ad minstration of public money.
He thought, therefore, that though there was no want of
plausible arguments on the other side, the balance of the
reasoning was in favour of erste in aid ; nor did he find that
there wee any great objection to that plan in the districts
chiefly concerned in the matter. (Haar, hear.)
Colonel PATTEN said the diversity of opinion in the
house very closely represented the divided state of opinion
amoopt his constituents. He thought they ought to make
the owners of property in some sort contribute to the bur-
den ; but be was satisfied that that could not be done di-
rectly, otherwise it would become necessary to include stock
in trade. On the other hand, if the plan of loans were
adopted, the owner of property would be made to pay his
proper 'harem well as the occupier. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—The raising of mousy by loan
bad many recommendations so doubt, but it was bad in
principle, for it postponed toe foils* time the pressure of
the moment, sod the probability was that those who bor-
rowed the money would not have to pay it back. (Hear,
hear.) They all felt that raising of money by borrowing
was the easiest mode, but there was an after-clap to raising
money in that way, sod the difficulties in the ease would
not be diminished by the fact of the payment being poet-
poised, as the parishes and unions would find when they
came to mime the mosey for that purpose, and then they
would have to pay both interest and capital ; the burden,
therefore, would he increased. He must say that raising
money by loan would be establishing a very new and dan-
gerous system of relief. It had so doubt been resorted
to for special purposes, such as for the erection of union
heuses and the getting rid of part ofthe pauper population;
in those cases parliament had sanctioned the principle of
raising money by mortgaging the rates. But it bad never
been satctioged where the money was required for the daily,
weekly, or monthly purposes of the pariah or union. If
they sanctioned the raising of a loan on this occasion,
other occasions would present themselves equally calling
for • loan, and then his right hon. friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would probably have an appeal to him, as in
the case of the Irish loan, that the parish or union was so
pressed by other calamities, that it was quite unable to
repay the money. (Hear, bear.) And then the pressure
being great, there would be demands made to transfer the
burden from the pariah or union to the consolidated
fund. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the committee
would not take the first step in that direction. The question
was, would those two counties be able to give a rate in aid?
There was oodoubt of it, and he bad been informed that if the
whole working population of those counties were thrown
out of employment the rateable property of the counties
would bookie to supply fends sufficient for the aid of the
whole population. (Hoar, Isar.) Then was it unjust? It
was perfectly just, because no man could shut his eyes toils
fact that there was not an acre of land which bad not bees
mimed in value by manufacturing industry. The proprietors
might not have shared in the profits of the manufactures
who had amassed large fortunes, but every acre of
lend had been raised in value, and the produce
bad been sold at higher prices. Therefore it
would be just that the proprietors of the lands
is those two counties—though not engaged in manufacturre,
and though they had not accumulated &memo's OSpi,als—
should contribute to the relief of the working classes. A
rate in aid would consequently be just in principle—suffi•
cant for its purpose and equitable in its application. He
hoped the committee would not be led away by any plausi-
bility of argument that a law would be better than a rate
in aid, but that they would adhere to that sound principle
of legislation which was an old established law, sad would
not sanction a precedent which would be vicious in principle
and dangerous in its practice. (Hear, hear.)
- - -

Mr. COBDEN begged to suggest to the hon. and learned
member for the Tower Hamlets that he would not
press his amendment to • division on that occasion,
but that he would wait and hear the opinions
of the country. He thought it should be known what was
the decision of the government upon this matter, and then
allow the unions to express their opinions by petitioning
parliament. There could be no doubt that a portion of the
bill had been considerably changed that evening. It was at
first proposed to give • pariah or union aid when the rates
were two-thirds more than the annual average, but now it
was proposed to let them contribute .is. in the pound before
rendering aid to them. That 'Mention in the bill would
make a great difference in regard to those parishes that had
paid only Is. 4d. in the pound. This was an important
alteration, and the unions should have the amended bill to
consider what coarse they would adopt. It was for the
interest of the government and the interest of
parliament that this matter should be seriously
considered. The board of guardians for Stockport
bad presented • inemorial asking for powers to borrow
money, but be supposed his bon. friend the member fur
Stockport had since convinced them that they were wrong.
At any rate it was for the interest of parliament and the
country th►t they should not decide this question abso-
lutely until Lancashire and Cheshire knew what they pro.
posed to do. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed by the amend-
meet that a parish should be allowed to borrow to the
extent of one half the annual vital. Now he thought
that would not be required in the toss of Rochdale, not
probably to the extent of one qu►rter, before the let of
March next. if the boo. and learned gentleman went to
• division now he would not obtain a fair representation of
the feeling of the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. B. SMITH said it was quits true that the board of
guardians for Stockport did desire to have power to raise a
loan, but the mayor of Stockport and the chairman of the
board of auarthans were satisfied that it would be beet to
adopt the bill of the government. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BOUVERIE said the hon. member for Rochdale
seemed toconaider this bill as one only for Lancubire and
Cheshire. But he protested against such a narrow view of
the question, for it was one which concerned all the rate-
payers in the country, and the principle upon which the
committee would decide the question must affect all the
interests of the country. He thought the immune
against a lose were conclusive. It might be easy to borrow
money, but it might not be easy to repay it, and be thought
it would be far better to face their difficulties in the first
instance. . .

Mr. AYR'TON said that personally he was indifferent
upon the subject of his amendment, and it would be for the
committee to take what course it might please, and demand
a division or not. He begged leave to add that he enter-
tained oo such ulterior views as those ascribed to him by
the noble lord opposite.
Mr. COBBEIT would be sorry to go to a division at pre-
sent. He had not received the opinions of his constituents
on this bill, wbo were considering what coarse they ought
to adopt. He had received one letter, in which it
was intimated that the board of guardians should have
power to borrow money, but he himself was inclined to a
rate in aid, though be would not (oppose any other course.
He had not heard of very great distress among his con-
stituents, and the rates at present were not more than 3.
in the pound. But he feared the distress would be much
greater in twelve months. In the uncertainty in which
they were placed, he should be sorry if the committee were
required to divide on the principle of giving boards of
guardians power to raise loans. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment was then negatived without a division.
Mr. LYGON proposed a clause which would have the
effect of permitting the chairman and vice-chairman of
the board of guardians of the board to be rated in Did, to
,attend and vote at the meeting of the guardians of the
union aided.
After a brief discussion,
Mr. LYGON withdrew his chinas, intimating an inten-
tion of bringing forward the subject again, in the event of
the ministry taking no step in the same direction.
The preamble of the bill was then agreed to; and the
oonsideratioe of the report was fixed for Wednesday next.
BANKRUPTCY ACT (1861) AMENDMENT RILI..
This bill as amended was considered.

Mr. BOLT baked whether it was perfectly clear that the
officers of the late Insolvent Court, who were proposed to
be compensated by this bill. could not be employed under
the new Bankruptcy Act. He thought it very undesirable,
and he wee sure that it could sot be intended, that persons
should be oompeosated who might perform duties under the
sow system. There were some houses for example—these
houses must be kept up by housekeepers ; were these house-
keepers to be continued in the houses ;and if mo, would
they receive compensation besides their salaries? He sup-
posed also there would be some provision made for the arrears
of compensation in respect of fees to which these unpaid
olScers were entitled.

Mr. F. PEEL said that the bill related altogether he the
allows of the late Insolvent Court for whom so employ-
ment in the Bankruptcy Court could be found, and who
were to receive compensation for the loss of their offices.
No new offices would be created. and if additional officers
were required it would be easy to re-appoint those whose
services had been dispensed with, in which event they