The Express.
London, England, 1852-12-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 1, 1852.

LETTEE-CARRIERS CHBISTMAB BOUT.

la answer te a session hem Lad D. ellratT.---.
Mr. G. W. TON said do Pustaran Diluent
had daiidsd fiat DE the peasant the carries ,es not to be
prehildred Dos salletting ML
hoses.
2'SS CASE 07 STEAD.

Vieseasitabliiiiiis/17imilieliiipstinnMilisisthe nobly
bed in reference to the treabaest el lb. limed by
the onthorities. It appeared that Mr. Peed went
Mesa shin eeastt7 to Berlin, sad be had only bees there
two tim whim Yn was arrested by She pollee, mad having
bees doubted nearly a day is wiemo wiliest any in-
formatlea being gives to him as to the cowed the order,
he was directed to leers Berlin within sin hem, wed wee
told that if be Amid after wards be lased Ng where
within forty English mike of that city he 'mid be Bahia
to a month's imprisonment. He (Lard GAM* wrote is
September last to the melds lard (Stanley) stWag the cir-
cumstances' sod the ashielerd replied that Lord Meradeld,
the British Waists:. had hem directed is ems a aussotai-
cation with the near s. eat, and as &mead on-
planaties as tie whims. TM amities im whited le oak was
whether any answer bed bees meshed bees Lund Illemaeld,
and If se what had bees the VONA Milts inteeihrease
lord lITANLHY.—IIy aside Need has someelly stated
the eireseaseasses attending the west of Mr. eked, and
whisk that pallets very peeps* laid beam Lord
Maidillids wsw ambassador at the out ef lastly at the
time. lard Hiestield imeasiblely rep teed Me ate be the
Pre mien welbeellkw awl at Ibis some time meta he.. a
statement et the eintemsemeses as the of the

Map elm At OA tior Led Disto Wtanked,
is MOW is essmathetima m Ittt Ptioirt

meat, nay the usual formal rep?, that an fags*" would
be instituted and explanation von." Attie ease delay
explanation esplesati was given y the gaversmenS. What
the Pruden government stated in websessee woe this :
ibst age polka had ressivoi ishonattes boa
dot a pager of awes of Swat ow slow to
Ism thisieswatry, mil was Implisosed Is owspiroey es
owsalooto the Ring of Pnwelo—thet is eewgMOM
whew lb. Stead arrived at Bally they were under in:
that he was the penes ,be had beanie described
thatthiswastheseseedhis arrest andexpulsion.
The !nodes government ale weprimwed their regret at the
eirwaselewoo. but I as bewel be ghat that the explanation
whiel he been gives le ow woodelhetery—esother ere
he slag assured about the sae thee is whisk a British
woe weed with skeet equal liandisers—thet the
peeseivat of this wrostry have felt it their duty to re-
welosioto serweely with the Prudes government on their
peeseeamp. (Cheers) My noble friend having given
=the to pet the question, I presume his MOM, in some
usweare, was to vindicate the character of Mr. stead; and,
ff that be the case, I cannot have any heritages in saying
am there is no charge mignon him, with having been party
M wig set which could jar ify such peeeedi epi sad that
gbeelle settling in the slightest degree reeved.. on the*
glialkoes's character. (Cheers.)
COLLECTION OF TAXES (IRELAND).
Ur. Jr. BALL irked the Chief Secretary for Ireland,
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's government
to introduce, during the prreent session, any measure for
amending the laws relating to the collection of the local
taxes in Ireland ?
Lord NAAS replied that it was not the intention of
government to submit any such measure in the present
session, as they considered it would not be prudent to
move on the subject, until they saw the effect of the General
Valuation Act, passed last year.
TILE CASE OF EDWARD MURRAY.

Lord D. BTUART pie notip that on Freda neat lir
would Pats quettion to the noble Lord (StanNy), as to
the result of the negotiations on behalf of Edward Murray.
MINISTERS' MONEY.
. _

Kr. VAOANyose, pursuant to notice, to move " that this
beam will, upon Thursday next, resolve itself into • eons-
white., to take into consideration the law relating to the
nee or to: sated minister.' money is Inland, with the
Wow to repeal ow such thereof sa relates to the said rate or
ten ; sad, further. to take into consideration the act 3 &
Wm. IV., up. 37, called the • Church Temporelities Act;
for the puma of amending the same, so as to provide
QWre &substitute out of the revenues of the Ecclesiastical
ers as • provision for the protestant ministers
▪ seetaia corporate towns in Ireland, is lien of the annual
some sow received by them under and by virtu of the act
1711 18 Charles 11., cap. 7." Hassid that he had so inten-
tion in bringing the subject forward to interests with the
Church Temporalities Act, bat to ask the hums to apply a
remedy to what was felt by a large part of the population
to he • practical grievance. The whole miasmal collected
under this impost was only about 18,0004,N* wu levied
upon the catholic towns of 'Dublin, Use% Waterford,
Liverish, Cloud, Drogheda and Klerk. the greet
towns Of protestant Mater wholly
be frees Um
charge. Why this exception shoed be mods is
favour M the great t leer be law
act, but believed it w wader ea node
at the time of the settlings& od Melee James I.
Bat, la addition to this inequality is do latedee, even ia
the embeds towns where it *aided, it was se levied as to
beer with nudes severity ow the atatta embeds Malllelemale
se temeared with the protestemle. Time wee a Merest
wlaetfw der this rate, sad emir the law of Obeeir as
bear end he voted mialelsaf from thee GO/.
a asp.., retatever might be the peer-law Nitres. The
of tide was that the wealthy einpises of
the Amer
Mama, who were generally pool shoo, awed wither
peg* their Akt shore of the raper. Aida, the reloads&
osier whisk the sate was inied w made Meat a centegy
apt via the abbe of many hems was very differs'
from whet It wee mew and die si this wee.
Set la tyros like Cork the imp aid
priaelpri= whit emerrly were the redness of the
tieeilided errs& bat. wen sew esorded ey the
=por wen Amor at the aid bloh rate.
e,
sit hairdo beta sereadal is the reline he had
redoes die niter, hat es the mils lewd the had et the
late posewerat hoe perked, whs. he sue is else, le
berg la • IA
the Waht te Odin Ids sr, sod as et do solledthe
lot semen Ma. patron the
Are bird had Erie a similar roadie, he saitaillidawillsone.
what arm realidest of esseses. The greet Aar& which
bed Wrier hats made with rind to the of Ole
tat was, ihe Meshy se with
a eabedisie, bat duo
might be remord appriyaribsi to dr Mime the peat
rawer Mild Ad laWy _wadi the irons Mrs He- '
eiselealiod OmerHaar belead, sod whisk had emsested
to WEIL • prowl a edil years Weser nil& be mode
to thew ormasse by wispfti a haw mode of with
err* kern Tliere em dee a ear of SAUK doe to the
gerawrot by lesiesierleal O remimiso, brag the se.
eider Ma sem eta
Wad. edivened se them Mir dew
Set dry ramrod their teaseine, sad le rare was any
Minh, Men thet sum. ead the minim Of the interest,
:rt
o=ma glee it tip
_as ewe. He showed that the
urbe vessived the proceeds of this tat were
amine hi rid of I, that a germ esomittee had
dist it read to paid oat of the
et driers), sod be aloud Met • taz would he
sbdisi rind sad usemieL He bad latrodecod this
solder W -retries et piety debar sod le &abed ea
the hare to oedema the rearm rade Ti the i=assleme
Me three that die gereareat awe shat te rd he
Indeed k a kis tad libemityris. (Hear, hrs.)
Mr. flarmisty WALPOLE-said that he Aft manned
is the but Meer Mies of the Aoa yodeler*, net he had
hewed thierqs: wishthesa, yeeleet isedraties
evelded ell disswei is the erre
term he (Mr. Walpole mold erle hie IMPS sod re
rens trek it we premed Waite sernmen le tabs. He
reight there were la attadied le
and Myelin, ki rem Se be rearestiti
theatM the hanaraisare sad eideedeas whir bad
bra related est W the hes. seaderes, brit es rearded
the amen of ralvadea awl the rade of seenerlas the
user* required, wen teAtedesebie. bloKers• N the he.
pest itself was ledt weetradis4 we alteration nor to be
✓ade fa those reran The here was aware the by the
way ia wheels the ressmasat was made .11 hones above the
raise of OK tree rated *sly at that is, ailliessli they
might he d bade the value, sad .is. that Mete wan
may pros whore berm wen alder the esealesemealat
is when they bed bees orapied by weelthir rhabileste.
That daysdity is Well required some abrades. It wee
alto limos bed been stated by the Ma. andemes, do*
the dory diereeire °Wasted se Ferries rat whieh it
wie Asa dilleadt far the palm Berea sad dies to pay.
He woad refer to a weep la Me rya of the select ona.
mires se this questise,, which was dellli*op Um ale
quest sad able statesmen, Mr. Ilineed lake whir
was Wile edict that it was set eisecaidag le say
• peptder odium was attached Se ker mt. ghat as
a swam d livelihood it was Mir sad by the deny
as berg collected from a willstist per l that
a aismbet of clergymen were taillilled Ware the *commit-
tee, and they all agreed that some sothillitmlesbeubl be head
fisiit." The report west on to say *et whisk was to the
inedit of many clergymen in different parb of the roatty,
particularly when it was so often said that the bleb clergy
were overpaid, and thought of little bur their two emolu-
ments, fur it is stated "that from a fatten whisk did them
beawar, and from a desire to avoid eay with these
Insade whom they stood in the Main sd
Mars and protestant ineuabeete, was
sacrifices, and that • Kr. Sec, of bodfai
nine years relinquished his Glair to the priaipal part
of his income • and that sere altsraties was asessery
to relieve the clergy he tide rapese." Thee being
to, and the question Wimp whether the he geed be
abolished, or whether • semealtre shoed be to
take into condd ration the Mirth Tim he
the purpose of amending it, so as le •
substitute out of the revenues of the
Meal Commission, he would only may that etc
regard to the abolition of the tat if it was put wen arrest
motion, he (Mr. Walpole) must mist it, for it was as
plait ninon per.ons but on property, and the
not to be established that proposty should V=l
burdens on merely permnal objections. If les abolished
the tan, aocordinu to Mr. O'Sullivan you would bare the
clergy in the towns to which he referred without the mum
of discharging their duties. Mr. O'Sullivan, in his
donee before the committee, in answer to questions 66, 67,
and 68, stated in effect "that the protestantof Cork would
prefer any other mode of paying their ministers; that be

Mr.

L'oeuld hardly my that the tainsacie of the tax led to • ran.
miens feeling among those who had to pay it, unless it
wen in cases where there was oppression ea the part of
the Winton ; bet it led to great dissatisfaction, and
he thought it was generally the Impression of the
Roman catholics of Cork that any arratigemeots
widish would take from the incumbents of the pariahs* •
subsistent° becoming to their station u clergymen and gen-
tlemen would be unjust." (Hear, hear.) Well, then, if
the tax could not he abolished without injury to the rights
of property and doing injustice, then came the question
whether there could be any substitute provided from the
funds of the Ecclesiastical Commission. The bon. gentle.
man the member for the city of Cork had said that Lord
Derby advocated tho passing of the Church Temporalities
Act, but he did not do so on the ground that it 'tumid in-
elude the ministers' money. But there was • Mile-num
between the ens under that act and "Moisten' mono y, be-
cause the one was charged on persons and the other on
property. After the Church Temporalities Act passed, an
act was passed to amend that statute, and by that act minis
teirs' money was expressly excluded from its operation. The
hon. gentleman said that as the funds raised under that
act were more than sufficient for the purpose (or which
they were inten ed, it would be be:ter to employ
them in getting rid of • tax so obnoxious both
to Roman catholic, and protestants. But it must
be remembered that certain trusts were crested under the
Church Temporalities Act, which must be carried out, and
under which the funds were to provide for the celebration
of the church service, for the payment of sextons and clerks,
the replies of the churches, the maintenance of the church-
yards, and if after that there was any surplus, it was to be
applied to the rebuilding of churches and building new
ones; and, lastly, in augmenting the smaller livings. All
the objects of the trusts must be first fulfilled before the
funds could be applied to the last purpose, the auginenta-
lion of the smaller livings. But ho was told that the foods
in the hands of the commissioners were not sufficient fur
those purposed, and he should therefore object to those
funds being taken away from the purposes for which they
had been placed in the hands of the commissioners. Nor
ought it to be forgotten that • great portion of the funds
came from rates charged on all the benefices of the Irish
Church. Every clergyman was charged on the amount of
his benefice at a rate of from Mould-a-half to fifteen per
cent. That per ion of the funds, therefore, in the bands
of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was derived from the
clergy themselves, and to take awa this impost, and put
it on the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commission, would be
to take it first out of the funds of the clergy, and pay it
back to them. He thought that this was a question fez a
committee; but at the same time he was bound to state
the views of the government. The hon. gentleman was
right in stating that he (Mr. Walpole) had stated, in answer
to Mr. Reynolds, that this question ought to be settled. Ile
meld mare the hon. gentleman that he had token greet
pass `the investigatiuu of the question, and had been in
eommudeation with the Lord-Lieutenant and his noble
friend the Secretary for Ireland, and the Attorney-General
for Ireland, and the result was, that the matter could be
settled ; and the very last conversatiox he had had with the
Lord-Lieutenant when he was in town, was for the purpose
of arranging a measure, which the government would pre-
pare during the recess and bring in, and it was on the
details of that measure that he required information
before it was prepared. That was the present state of the
wetter, and while he thought that something ought to be
done, it should be done with great deliberation. Ile
did not intend to negative the motion of the hon. gentle-
man, but if he would accept as an amendment a motion of
the previous question, he (Mr. Walpole) would after the re-
cess be prepared to redeem the pledge be had now given to
bring in a measure. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. &demi MURPHY said it was clear, from what had
been stated by his hon. friend and mileage, and the admix-
aim of the right hoe. gentleman that this question had not
been mixed up with sectarianism, or party or polemical
topics, and that many persons of different religions agreed
that it would be for the welfare both of protestant*
and Roman catholic, of several towns in Ireland if
this question receiv,d a speedy solution. They had
doss away with tithes and with caw and he believed
that if tney did nut carry this principle out, a dis-
content w:uld be produced like that which preceded the
Reform Bill, and which, in this case, would have the effect
of materially interfering with the entire establishment of
the church in Ireland.

Mr. NATI Zit said it was set his intention to make any ob.
Nervations width might prevent the dispusienate discussion
of this quietus. Het when his right hon.friend (Mr. Walpole)
stated in the nurse of last session that it was the intention
of government to take this question into consideration,
that was no idle promise watt a view to postpone •
discussion, hut it was with the bossafide intention of having
it considered ; and he might say that he had himself paid
great attention to it, and but for the state of his health he
should have been ready with a bill on the subject now.
During the time of the late government, he believed it was
their honest desire to try to settle this questi n, and though
on that as on other questions ho would not thrust himself
upon them, he was not unwilling to give them his aiii dance
in that house. He knew the obstacle that stood iu the way ;
it was the state of the funds of the ecclesiastical commis-
sion. They could not abolish this tax, and
draw the requisite funds from the ecclesiastical com-
mission, without postponing and displadag trusts which
he was confident that house would not postpone or dis-
hoplace. He admitted that it was highly desirable to exempt
houses inhabited by the poorer portion of the Homan
Cu
:Catholic population ; but while hi did that, e could not
consent to lay the tax on the pourer clergy, of whom mere
gee. _mall Ireland.
ggyy was The average moo incoa:,l nd.eedto,li thea
year, and he thought it would be an equitable thing to put
a tax on these clergymen which was properly payable by
the owners in fee of houses who were the
protestant'.
In the parish to which be belonged the greater portion of
the inhabitants were protestant', and he thought it would
be hard to tax the poorer clergy in order to exempt them.
It bad been stated that some protestant* in the higher ranks
were in arrest on one occasion, and he had himself been
struck off the list of voters once because the collectors had
not called for the rate, and some of the judges, he believed,
were also struck off. No doubt this tax in its origin was •
Mx en property and not on persons. It was imposed, as had
bees at the time of the settlement of Charles II
The mown had the whole property of the town in its pos-
session, and it had a right to make arrangements for the
interest of these who were settling in the town, and,
accordingly, these arrangements, by which protestant
ministers were to be supported, were made to entourage
protestants to come and settle In Ireland. But the act of
Charles 11. did not impose a weasel tax ; there was no
remedy against the puma ; the remedy was against the
property, sad this whatever the nowt paid be was entitled
to deduct OM Mr lele woit. He meationed this to show that
herwever instereenlent the tax might be new, it was a just
Inn la its berm end origin. He theagist. however, that
lbw ekadd sthse relief foe the poorer aims of the pops.
Men; and he tai prepared a memo whisk he thought
mould settle the lessetion ea ea imodlehle pdeniple.
I Mr.litillitheught Hapset pity thee with a ceurek per anti maple fends as the chunk el Ireland there
eselinao a tax et this deseri producing Do
smell a sum es 16,0001. a year. He that they
adi not know what the leaned gentleman was going to
Is. He said he trout bring la • bill ; bat would that
1111 take away the stigma if a person of ea. religion being
hosed to pay for the 'sliest el another I It wen the same
In Scotland with regard to the &malty tax. He thought
they should make a sacrifice. The pease of the church in
Inlaid was of nub more les than 16,0001. a
He believed it was y a tax as . hat
Owlet UV* C sad the
far the mint linxtorme, it was a stigma up= them. -
Oa seed to bring peace and goodwill gnaw men, but
mt that a few paltry pounds were mode the tease of
diesenteat. He treated that ministers would aka take into
ensoldowstion the annuity tax in Scotland, whisk was of the
saws
loud AID said boa. members skald bear in
aid that Oh we molly a pnthaiaary mita. Ste the
awned shims _ cif dissernisi asthain qnsaisoth but he
teneled be *NM bs snenthil mkt; • few wads an this
=Tbs bon wadi bear ia mind that the property
Isms was siasspist: property et prthastants at
Me lias Ss Inn wee fa sad these Who lad pedaled
it dose bad parthand it to this tax. Hs bathed
that at prosiest Wirthirds Os tax at least AE ea pme.
tastants ; and tbs when could deduct it has the head
he
&Brest poetise of width balassed to the peensetaate.
The seskabs saasslethasas at wand had no heads at
dhpeal, now thumbes were la amass of dilapidation, end
Mans would be many ram claims he repairs if the
mw their Mewed their appthations weal have any math
lth. NAHUM rid be would set haw arias ware as
rriteinaratiss the dissiderable isperthess in suns of the
pal lthalitiss of Ireland. He nand his hon. friss&
persevere in his 111111111 M, which he did set in a spirit of
hostility to the inthesearist, but basal= the right hon.
Latim(Mr. Welpde) had gives ne seadent rearm*
ilereuld lake Sir quads& into praedsal sassiden.
thruildths maniple ea obi* Oa peepend bill was to
bene 'rho debt ha madman spoke of the se-
a sySaks '4W/0 asthm in that house ;
nsseetvea lbws was _thlng still wee la-
goesent, and that wan the assmifia al psi/ling anima,
mid hostility in Isilmi. If the rigid boa. gentlemen or
the Atterney-Oemmed wield give an assurance that a mea-
sure would be latmodesed which would do away with this
acrimony, he would seumel his hon. friend to withdraw
this motion. He did not object to this tax because it was a
ten on one description. of persons more than another ; but
ea a question of principle. In the name, then, of religion,
which was dishonoured by the tax—in the name of justice,
he called upon them to abolish an impost so diegreeeful and
so injurious. (Cheers.)
Sir .1. SHELLEY trusted that the his. isaliasaa would
not press his motion to a divides, until they had the mea-
sure of the government before them. If they eheuld be
dissatisfied with that measure, the ha gentissma would be
in no wore position than he was new.
Captain JONES observed that the boa. gentlemen sp.
posits had objected to being Sneed to pay ministers'
because he was • Roman eathelis ; Ind he had argood'erif
it was imposed on him as a badge of conquest and religiose
inferiority. Ile was sure that no protestant ever thought
of looking upon it io such a lied. Ile objected to the pro-
posal to burden the geobeiestioal Commissioners with
miaistere money, becomes their fends were inadequate.
Mr. FOIiTESCUE thought that the impost ought
eievertheleu, to come from the funds of the commissioners;
bat he regretted that this was only an isolated measure,
sad riot a portion of • general reform.
Mr. MONSELL trusted the hon. gentleman would with-
draw his motion.

Mr. FAUAN nplled. He regretted that he felt it his
duty to divide the house, for ha WAS quite satisfied that the
Intention of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Napier) was not
to sheikh the tax, but to transfer it from the occupiers to
the landlords.

The house then divided on the "previoue question,"

namely, whether the modem &mild be pat, widths numbers
wens Ayes
Noes
The motion was, therefore, not put to the house.
BANK IWTES BILL.
This bill wag read a thir and passed, and the home
adjourned at a quarter-past 7.
PAIIID.—Mr. Kershaw paired off with Mr. Arkwtight in
favour of Mr. nutmeg motion for the abolition of ministers'
money in 'rebind.

Vitt! tt.x.nreos.