The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-28 00:00:00

(Stamped Id. Additional.) [TWOPENCE.

meat. (Hear, hear.) His right hoe. frisad had relied is
the importance of the stability of the government. But it
was improper to terrifies to this object the most serious
objections to a system of injudicious subsidies. (Hear.
hear) As to the effect of a rejection of such a measure os
the continent, where was that sort of argument to stop ?
Wee it to prevent all discussion eta every measure pro-
pounded by the government as to the war ? (Hear, hear.)
It would be cowardly and unworthy conduct on the part of
the house to abstain from a fres expression of cpinlon upon
such a measure. (Hear, hear.) A hundred years ago
there had been debates in that house upon the very gun
tion of subsidies ; and the great statesmen of that day did
not shrink from opposing subsidies. Mr. Fox said,
I am surprised you are not against all subsidise."
Yet subsidise were small In those days. Lord Chatham,
however, said, We have been deceived by names and
sounds--halanse of power, liberty of Europe, do.—without
say other result than to load ourselves with intolerable
burdens. None but a nation which had lrst all signs of
vitality would submit to such a system." What had been
said them of Germany now applied to Turkey. If the holm
was of opinion that the terms of thl subsidy were injudi-
cious, and disadvantageous, and imprudent, what course
could have been taken, constitutionally, but that which had
been takes, by opposing the resolution ? There had been
no other than a constitutional *ohm. The result had been
to show that a gambrel in 1.96114110 prevailed as to the pro-
priety of that bourse. When the government found these
measures unacceptable to the house they might have com-
municated with the French government and ealeavoured to
modify its terms. (Hear, bear.) Now, was it reasonable
to attempt to object on constitutional grounds to the opposi-
tion gives to the measure.

Lord PALMERSTON said the government had been
accused of bringing in the measure ; but that was an accu-
sation which might rather be urged against the opposition,
who had endeavoured to stiffs the measure on the first stage,
and to prevent its discussion. (A laugh.) The government
did not at ail pretend that parliament had not a right to
criticise or even reject such • measure. (Hear.) The
terms of the convention itself implied that it could not be
carried into effect without the consent of parliament. (Hear,
hear.) But what the government contended was that the
right had bees abased—(. oh"), and exercised without a
due regard to the interests of the country. The measure
was essential to the vigorous prosecution of the war. How
eolith the war he vigorously carried on, if the Turkish army
was unable to keep the field ? And how could it keep
the field if not paid and supported ? And how could it
be paid and maintained without money ? (Hear, hear.)
The object of the measure was to supply the Turkish go-
vernment with money for the purpose; and it was quite
inconsistent in then who professed • desire for the vigorous
prosecution of the war to oppose the measure. He could
not undentand the objections to it. (Laughter.) Was it
that the guarantee was not several ? Was it that it was •
guarantee instead of • loan ? or that it ought rather to have
Men a gift ? or, on the contrary, that it was really a sub-
sidy ? If the objection was that it was not • several guts.
Hates, the answer was, that the government had desired
that it should be eo, but had yielded to the strong wishes of
the French government, not deeming the point of such is-
portanth as was supposed. The real objection appeared to be
to the political aspect of the question. (Hear.) It was said
that the guarantee would afford either of the guaranteeing
powers • pretext for their heal aggrandisement at the
@incense of Turkey. (Hear.) But the answer war, that if
such • disposition existed, or ever could be supposed to
exist, a several guarantee would afford a greater facility for
its exercise than a joint and several one. In the ease of a
separate guarantee, either party might claim a right to
pursue its remedy separately. In the case of • joint and
several guarantee the other party to it might prevent such
a course by claiming the right to pay the whole of the
money, and so remove the pretest for territorial aggro
sion on the part of the other; and those who had been
members of the government of Lord Aberdeen could
hardly object to a course which had been pro
posed by that minister in regard to the Greek loan.
He doubted that lean political difficulty was likely to occur
from the form in which this treaty was drawn up than from
the form proposed by his right hon. friend. The practical
question, however, for the house to wonder was, should
they throw into the teeth of France a treaty which had
been entered into in deference to its wishes? (Hear, hear.)
The course proposed by the right hon. gentleman would
involve fresh negotiations, and a delay of that assistance
which it was of importance to render promptly. He did
not think the sight hon. gentleman had bens quite accurate
in his definition of the treaty alluded to as having been
entered into during Lord Derby's administration. That
was an extradition y, and he (Lord Palmerston) had
objected to it when he came into office.
Mr. DISRAELI—It was Lord Granville.
Lord PALMERSTON—The case of the extradition
treaty was not a parailei one ; for the only result of reject-
ing the treaty proposed by France would be that the two
countries would have to fall back upon the treaty already
in force. He could not look at the late division on this
quetionof sloth Lathe light in which some gentlemen
regarded it. It would have been a serious thing indeed,
had that division tumid out the other way. (Hear, hear.)
If the treat bad been contumeliously rejected by the
house, and flung back with insult to the government of
France, although that act alight not have broken the alliance
with France it would have produced coldness in the inter-
course between the two countries, and its effect for the
moment would have been fatal to the military exertions of
Turkey. The convention had been proposed to preserve
the very existence of Turkey, and to further that vigorous
prosecution of the war of which his right hon. friend (Mr.
GLadetone) when be left the government was in favour ; and
if his right hon. friend were still in office he ehould hope
he would take the same view of the they were now
discussing. The object of this loan was to furnish means to
Turkey indispensable for her army, and without which she
could not obtain that success which her allies and herself
hoped for. It was with satisfaction, therefore, that after
the pretest of the right hon. gentleman opposite, he heard
him say that it was not his intention to interpose any further
obstacle to this proposition. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE was prepared to repeat his deelleil
opinion, in the ease of Turkey in particular, that
whatever money she absolutely required, and could not
get from any other Bonne it would be better to give or lend
to her than guarantee. Not a single member had Tina
to defend the terms of this arrangement, or the mode In
which it had been brought forward by the government.
But there was one point upon which he wished to get some
information. His noble friend had laid down the doctrine
that, although this was a joint guarantee, either
guaranteeing party could at any time buy the other off, and
thus obtain the whole control of the conditions. He wished
to know whether this doctrine had received the sanction of
the French government, and of the law officers of the
crown.
The question was then put, and after an observation from
Ric H. WILLOIIOa3Y, the words jointly and severally were
inserted.
Mr. M. GIBSON said he had an amendment to propose.
It appeared that the money was to be paid into this Bank
of Ragland on account of the government of Turkey, but
that that government was not to be allowed to draw any of
it without the consent of France and England. He wanted
to have words inserted providing that the house should
have a return of the sums paid out of the Bank on ac-
eount of the capital of the loan, and the purposes to
which they were applied. He thought that the house
should know whether the mosey was actually transmitted
to the Porte, and applied to the vigorous prosecution of the
war. The right hon. member then moved the insertion of
words embodying his propeaition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the English government would have no means of tracing the
application of the money, which would be transmitted to a
commission at Clentantinople. Besides, it was not usual
to insert in en English act of parliament provisions for
accounts of money transmitted in part through the agency
of France.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought that the question were best
left in the hands of government, but recommended his
noble friend to tarn his attention to some means for pro-
tiding aa account of the disposal of the money.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the facts of the ease were
these. They were anxious to lay the convention before par-
liament at the earliest possible moment, and had done so the
moment the ratifications were signed. The details of the
commission had yet to be arranged by Lord Stratford, and
he hoped soon to have that noble lord's *newer, enabling
him (Lord Palmerston) to state what means hod been taken
to secure the application of the loan to strictly military
purposer•
Mr. GIBSON was anxious to preserve so meth of his
amendment as should enable the house to know how much
money was actually paid to the Sublime Porte.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the right hoe. gentlemen
could move for returns from time to time.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought that the preduction of the
motion should be provided for in the act.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
his right hon. friend overlooked the fact that the money was
raised on Tarkish account, and that the British government
had no right to interfere until there had bees a failure in
the payment of the interest.
Mr. WILKINSON observed that parliament had nothing
to do with the matter until this eettatry was Gelled on for
payment of the interest.
Lord LOVAINE supported the amendment.
Mr. MALINS concurred in the view taken by the hon.
member for Lambeth.
Mr. GLADSTONE was still of opinion that the matter
should be under the control of parliament. At the some
time, he would not 'Avis his right boa. (need to divide ;
although if he pressed his motion he (Mr. Gladstone) should
vote with him.
Mr. GIBSON said he should press his amendment in
then words : " Transmitted to the Sublime Porte on i►
wont of the capital of the loan."
Mr. BARING said that although this money was Wood

JO amass ot the Turkish governmeat, it was Wbe union
-E• control of special commissioners, and being soh. thought
It was a fair subject for returns.
The eommaittee divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Tammy., to Lord Loviurs,
The CHANCELLOR of We EXCHEQUER stated that
the prevent loan, lake all others, would be made by Instal-
ments. The terms, after having been arranged with the
Turkish minister, would he duly advertised.
The clause and the preamble having then been agreed to,
the house resumed.
BALE OF BEER BILL.
On the motion of Mr. H. BERMILEY, leave vise given to
bring in a bill founded on the resoluaone of the committee,
to alter the act for the regulation of the sal. of beer sod
other liquors.
The other netices were disposed of, sad the Hale
adjourned at halfspast one.