The Express.
London, England, 1864-03-08 00:00:00

• -
THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
ROUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY, MARCH 7.
The LORD OsceolaLoa took his soot upon the woolsack
gas o'clock.

bees of the government in the different hours of puha•
meat which apparently are very contrary in their sense.
I nada/stood the noble lord when the matter was brought
beton the hour that be considered the invanon of Jutland
to be, es the part of the Darman powers, ea aggrava-
tion of the outrage and injuries previously committed.
Butt observe that when the moo question re adhered
to the Secretary for Fawga Affairs he seemed to state that
be had received a formal intimation from the Polar
arehasesdor of the intended invasion, and that the Prussia
ambassador informed him that the inteeded arias of
Jatlaud was in ocrequonce of the order of the Drink
government to capture German ships, and that it had rip-
dared inevitable that war becoming general which otherwise
would have been localand it seems by the &comae ',battened
us that the Secretary of State accepted that intenneaties
of the conduct at the German powers, and communicated
it to the Danish government without any protest. Coder
these circumstances, and seeing that the lIIMMOn of Jutland
appears still to proceed, and remembering the original Man-
ama ef the noble lord and the detriment which he made is I
reference to that invasion • few nights sines, I shall hailed
to know whether the noble lord can oecumenical* to the
house any authentic information upon the subject, and also
what the house may consider to he the =there° view of the
government upon the step of the invading powers.
Lord PALMERSTON—The accounts which we have had
in reference to the invasion of Jutland have been exceedingly
contradictory, and therefore I am really somewhat at a ices
to give a definite answer to the quietism of the right boo.
gentleman. As I have dated we were fir told that the
frontier was crossed contrary to orders, and that • reprimand
had been sent, but nevertheless that • moron had
been given. I believe, as the matter now stands, the
German powers wish to get pommies of the fortress
of Fredericia, and, no doubt, or reason given is that
mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, via, that as the
Dens have retaliated upon the Germans by taking Gerona
merchantmen that gave • character of mutual hostility
to what, under the invasion of Sleswig, was only
a friendly act (Laughter.) But as to the qua,
tion of hostilities between Germany and Denmark
that retaliation of Denmark altered the relative position of
the parties. Upon that, of course, every one can form his
own opinion ; but one ground given was that which I men-
tioned, the captors by the Danish ships of war of German
merchantmen ; and the other was, that the occupation of
Frederica, as well u %oldies, was Duman in order to
protect the German troops front being harmed by the
Dane' from the north of Jutland. The right hoe. gentle.
man wants to know what is the view which her Majesty's
government take of this matter. The view we take of it
is, that the whole of the military operations breed the
Eider was ao outrage upon the independence
of Danmark—(cheers)--•¢d en sot of eider, see
justified by the state of thin" Macomb r
the excuse given was that the Commas wanted a mate-
rial security for a lanais revocation of the constitution of
November, the Danish government having complied with
their iequest before the occupation of Sierra and Holstein.
Well, of course, any extension of that occupation is an ag-
gravation of that outrage whatever ewer might be given
for it, and it was uno for my noble friend to enter
into • controversy with the Prussian government as to the
aggression. The Prussian government knows perfectly well
our opinion as to the main matter, sad it was not necessary
to squabble with them as to the steps they take in rem
vation of their original violence.
Sir C. DOUGLAS wished to put • question in reference
to the Diet at Frankfort, and the proposition made thereto
by her Majesty's government in case of • conference taking
place. It smeared from the natal sources of information,
that • oontradiction had been received to that statement,
and he wished to ask the noble lord whether the Diet had
been invited to the cadencies.
Lord PALMERSTON— Her Majesty's government origi-
nally proposed to the Diet, as well as to other parties,
that then should be • confirms, but that proposal fell
to the ground, because it was founded upon the free
en estab-
liahmeutofarmistice. Latterly we proposed to Austria
HOUSE OF COHMONS.-110:4DAY, MARCH 7. and Freesia that there should be a conference without en ar.
The Serer took the chair at 4 o'clock. mistier% and France and Russia have concurred in that view,
THE DANISH QUESTION. and we wait for an answer from Denmark. We have had
Lord E. CECIL gave notice that he would on Frinay no recent communication with the Diet. tear is it neograry
neat call the attention of the house to some of the paper. until we see our way to have a conference or to drop
recently laid on the table of the house in reference to it. (Laughter.)
the Danish question, and would move for certain papers, Lord J. MANNERS rid that the noble lord would re-
ar parts of despatches omitted therefrom. member that he gave the house to understand that he felt
FEDERAL ENLLSTMENTS LN IRELAND. considerable difficulty in communicating with the Diet, be-
Mr. ROEBUCK gave Notice that on going into a com-
use t was divided into two camps, and that that was the
mittee of supply he would ask the following .I:intim:l—that reasonfti
why he had not received any
y, scootding to what the noble
answer to the invite-
as the SolicitorGeoeral bad sold the house that her Ma-
Mon wh. ich had undon
jesty'e government intended to remonstrate with the govere. lord gave the house to understand, been made to the Diet.
meat of the Confederate States on the employrneut of agents Lord FfiLlf Efl-SrON most my that I mherreeesed
for illegal purposes, and as the First Lord of the Treasury myself If l led the house and the noble lord to understood ,
lad declared that the government of her Majesty desire to that •• recent ommuoication had been made to the Diet.
surtaio a strict neutrality between the Confederate and No recent communication has been made to the Diet I
the Federal States—was it intended by her Majesty's goveru• founded upon our late proposal of a conference without an
mot to iemoustrate with the government of the Federal armistice. What I stated was just the fact that with re-
feree on the employment by them of agents in Ireland for gard to soy proposal to send • representative to any coo's-
the purpose of enlisting soldiers, subject. of her Majesty. rigor • oettein number of stela who were parties to the
Cheers. treaty of 1812 should be invited to be represented at it, •
PAYMASTER SHALES. large proportion of the states being of opinion that the in-
Far J. FERGUS.SONgave notice that he would to-morrow tiepin of the Danish monarchy should be maintained.
oak • question of the Under Secretary for War in reference
( hear.) .
I. Pay maater dermal and subsequent restoration Mr. S. FITZGERALD—I would ask whether we are
a
the
right in understanding that a direct proposition was made
te service, and the dates ad grounds of his restoration. . y the government to the Diet . Fauetfora toagree to a
o
THE SUEZ CANAL. conference founded on an armistice, and whether we are to
Mr. D. GRIFFITH gave notice that on the motion of uorierstion that a direct reply has been made so that pro-
the bon and learned member for Sheffield in reference to position!
the Suez Canal, he world move an addition, "provided that Lord PALMERSTON—I cannot charge my memory with
the claims of humanity are duly respected, sod that the the exact nature of the proposition to the Diet, or when
Puha shall not be called upon to supply forced labour for the conference was likely to be held. We asked them to
carrying on the works of • private company." (Hear, hear.) send somebody to represent them at the conference, as same
THE DANISH QUESTION.
of the powers were anxious that the Diet should send a re-
presentative. A difficulty had been felt in the selection of
Mr. HUNT gage notice that he would to-morrow ask for
com
the persons, bat two gentlemen had been named, but no de- I
an explanation from the fiat minister of the crown in terminate. had ben fie
to.
referroce to a passage which marred at page 644 of the The subject thou dropped.
laat were which had been delivered upon the Duith qua.
tioa. The despatch was dated January 6, and wee from CHINA.
Lord Napier to Earl Russell, and contained the following Mr. LIDDELL asked the noble lord whether he was dir
words. supposed to have been written by Prince Gortcha- posed to grant facilities for diocesans the papers relative to
koff :—" The four governments, Austria. Prussia, Russia, China.
aad England, happily now thinking and acting in harmony Lord PALIIERATON—It is too early in the session to fix
es • question still more important than that of Sleserig days. There are days enough bran the end of the series
sad Holstein, split
into two parts op- for members to choose for themselves.
peeing each other.' He would ask the noble lord what THE RAILWAYS COMPANIES CONSTRUCTION
the question was which was there alluded to. (Hear, hear.)
FACILITIES BILL.
THE AFFAIRS OF DENMARK. In reply to Sir J. Ferrer,
Mr. DISRAELI gave notice that he wculd to-morrow Mr. M. GIRSON said he would sot proceed with these
make an isquiry of her Majesty's government respecting bill, until after Easter.
further papers upon the affairs of Denmark. (Hear, hear.) GOVER_NMENT ANNUITIES BILL.
THE CHINA QUESTION. On going into committee on the Government Annuities
Hr. LIDDELL asked the Uodier-Sscretay for Foreign Bill.
Affairs when the papers relating to China would be laid on The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the table of the house as promised by the noble lord at the the last report of the Registrar of Friendly Societies slowed
head of the goverment. such an unsatisfactory state of these institutions that
Mr. LAYARD begged to say that the papers were in • public attention was directed to the matter, and it appeared
very advanced state -of preparation, and that they would to him that it was the duty of the government to interfere
mon be laid on the abler the hoar and to amend the law on the subject, by making it
THE RIGHT OF SEARCH.—THE CONFEDERATE operate on a point on which it was now inoperative,
NAVY. He did not lay down that, is the matter of Enings
banks, or annuities, or ustuance for the people, it
Mr. R. LONG asked the Attoroey.General whether a wee abstractedly the dun of the government to
ship belonging to the Confederate navy would have the interpose, but that principle had been admitted in
same right to search and make prize of en English vessel the cue of the Poet-office Savings Banks Act which par-
carrying contraband of war to a Federal port that • Friend Deem, had peso. It wee not proposed to petunia...
war vessel would exercise in the case of a British ship car- ...meby t • government on any other terms than those
h
lying contraband of war toe Coefederate port ; and, if not, on which ordinary insurance offices acted. He admitted
whether such partiality in favour of one of two belligerent that government interference in what might be called pri-
power' was reconcileable with the " strict neutrality pro- „le enterprise and business was only to be justified on the I
tensed by her Majesty's government !
'tee ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there could 'be no crowed of preventing mond, social, and political evil. The
terference now proposed rejoined nothing and prohibited
doubt whatever that Confederate vessels had the MOM
. nothing, bat it only proposed to judiyaltede mule hem.'
right to visit, search, and capture British vessels carrying the for sell help, arid to more, and it win not obsoxious to
contraband of war as Federal men-cd•war had ; hut it must the c—
airns he remembered that neither of thorn had a right to of bentralisation and government control. The
bill had grown out of the neoeseity cif dealing with
rake any such capture except for the purpose of tables Amu, tootattoa founded at...au. were oo error,
the ship for adjudication before a prise coart, (Her.)
head, reed swindling on the most helpless class of the
THE PAMPER°, community. By exempting friendly societies from several
Mr. DALGLISH asked the Uuder-Secreary of State for items of taxation the g°"elmeal Innetamily made itself re"
Foreign Affairs whether the government were prepared to sponsible for them ; and the form of intervention or remedy
accept from the owners of the Paropero, and other steamers Dow chosen was a simple or. and it was founded on the
seised by the government, on the plea that these vessels same principle as that of the Post-office Savings Banks,
wire intended for the Confederate States of Amami, • that of giving the poor man a certain security for his in-
assurance to that which the government had de- vestments. If the plan was safe and just it ought to be
dared themselves satisfied with when given by the Drink, adopted. The object now in view was to prevent fraud
ambassador 7 The hon. gentleman was understood to ask and personation in cases of laeurariee ; and with reference t° also whether the Pamper* bad been offered for sale to the that object the government had peculiar morose for de-
'crooner. fending itself, and rendering ita business safe. In reference
Mr. ItYARD thought the bore would see that the to the justness this operation toward assurance so.
eases referred to were not at all similar. In the one case Mlles, he contended that the principal companies were
the Danish minister, before hostilities commenced, wishing either neutral or favourable to the scheme, as they
to spare her Majesty's government all the embarrassment did not seek the small business sought by the present
possible, came forward and gave the fullest information bill• and were in fact independent even of government corn.
erecting the vessel being constructed for the Danish gs
overn- petition. With regard to the industrialtal Muster °I the
meat. In the other case every kind of subterfuge used,wa moor assurance societies, he metered that the good am-
sod every kind means wooedfor evading timeaod Mations need not fear anything from competition with go-
ne • last rescuers, the parties concerned wahed the govern. eminent except in the matter of security, of the &dean-
mot to ester into a similar arrangement as that made with ' tapes of which the people ought not to be deprived if they
the Danish minister, but the
government had &thud te desired it ; and he showed that the government could not
ester into any such arrangement. In the case of the employ the same agencies for obtaining business as the
Drub minister, he gave his diplomatic it:armor, upon I offices were in the habit of using. What the goveremeut
which her Majesty's government placed the fullest reliance, offered were perfect security, greater facilities for pre-
late in regard to the other case, he doubted whether any I nerving policies against the temporary lapse of premiums,
guarantee could be liven upon which the government could d w
andadappolak
liegpoileter.ls shom thte
iness to the migeratery,,tedhad4.: of zhe in-
place reliance. aatt
government competition is quarters where honesty and
so tsar d
GREENWICH HOSPITAL REPORT. prudence prevailed. The right boo. gentleman then gave
S:r J. HAY asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if be several vivid illustrations of the fallacious mode of doing
would lay upon the table of the house Sir Richard Etroodey's I braes+ a • certain claim of assurance societies. low:deka,
report upon the organieatiou of Greenwich Hospital, with as he contended, insecurity, and even fraud. Taking up
any other papers which might have been received from the I friendly societies. he stated since the act coder which
Comossioners of Greenwich Hospital, or the officers of the 1 they were enrolled Peeled 9,000 of them had failed, inflict-
establishment in consequence of that report. it[ lose on their cootributon, while about 100 of them
Lord C. PAGET said the report of the commissioners was failed every year. He argued against the arrangement in
ender the consideration of the Admiralty, and he hoped this class of insurances, that • single lapse of premium at the
after Enter to be able to state what come they intended exact date voided the policy ; whereas in the higher classes
to adopt with regard to it of societies nob rigid terms did not prevaiL In one in-
THE INVASION OF JUTLAND. stance of these sometime 18,000 policies had lapsed, aad in
Yee. DISRAELI—As I see the noble lord in his place, I another 70,000. While deprecation the notion that he was
opposed to the principle of friendly societies, he pointed
will make as inquiry of him respecting the invasion of out the defects, mismargement, sod insecurity of thereat
Jutland. I should like to know whether the noble lord hat of the existing societnnt Referring 40 thep"ting held
L any hfformatioe upon the subject which he can cm. on Saturday in Exeterhall to oppoee the tell, he said :
It is not disputed for a moment that that was, as organised
Minnatate to the house. The raison why I make theinaniry meeting was e meting got by those who think
beat two statements have been male by two leading mow they have • direct interest ispoppcwing this bell, sod

PRIVATE BITSINESS.
Y= The Stokes Bay Railway sad Pier Bill was read • second
pumsamsyr OF RAPE.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH, in moving for leave to in•
tenines a bill to amend the law for the punishment of the
effeeee of rape, said oeiginally the punishmentfor this offence
yes theth, and whim the measure abolishing the ',neith-
er." of death was introduced it was stream:m.ly opposed
larelf and another noble lord. The first reeding of die
BM was only carried by a majority of one, and the second
site was also carried by only a majority. of
amt. The reason amigeed for the introduction
et that bill, namely, that jerks (lid not hie
b eanvict when the penalty was dm.* did
&Haut seem to him to be a sufficient one for altering the
taw, because if a juror wee so obstinate as to return • var•
it eigaiart the elideime that was his concern. He was
mss especially induced to move for an amendment of the
law ia eresequeuee of • cue of this nature which took
Owe it the county of Sligo before Mr. Justice Christian.
in that (0114) • party of men forced • young girl away and
=while the principal aocomplisned his purpose, and
the ruin of the young woman. The judge severely
reprimmided all for their dastardly and unmanly conduct,
and seeteaced the principal to penal servitude for life and
arzemplicee to four years' penal servitude. When he
was a young man this was not at all en uncommon offence ;
and it seamed se if it were again about to become the
pretties for a party of men to force away •
pang woman who was known to have money in order that
ebmi her ruin wee effected her friends might compromise
the offence by • marriage. His bill went to this extent, that
mime more than one person wee concerned in an offence of
Ili kind the punishment of whipping might be added to the
'mealy at present assigned for its commission.

_
THE DANO.GERMAN QUESTION.
Tb Earl of DERBY said that oo to-morrow he would
set the noble sari oppoide (Earl Roswell) whether it was
the 11160Dia00 of her Majesty's government to lay any papers
on the table rerpeotiag the Danish question of a later date
VIM V6OBO alresdy promoted. It was not his intention to
peewee any dimossioo.
THE KERTCH AND YENIKALE PRIZE MONEY.
Lewd CHELMSFORD drew attention to the mode in
which the Ksrtch and Yenikale prise money had been dia.
Wonted, and complained that Sir Montagu Stopford.
Admire! Borer, and Sir Frederick Grey had been allowed
to participate, although they were not present at the cao-
tore. He wished to know whether, in taking this course,
lie government had acted upon the advice of the law
Moors of the crown.

The Duke of SOMERSET stated that the distribution
lad been made in accordance with the proclamation of
March. 18:4. The legal &Weiser' of the crown had not been
teesulted, but the money had been distributed in exact
soefonnity with the precedents regulating such matters.
Sir Jolla Lawmen's Aanuity Bill was read a mooed
time.

THE METROPOLITAN RAILWAY SCHEMES.
Farl GRANVILLE, baring presented a petition on this
enbject from a amber of merchants in the City, moved
that the following bills be riot proceeded with in the present
esssioo—via : Victoria Station and Thames Embankmeot
Railway ; Oxfordoireet and City Railway ; Libido!' Main
Torok Underground Railway; Charing.cross (Northern)
Railway tbaring.croes (Western) Railway ; Totteuhani
and Hampstead Junction Railway (Exteosion to Charing-
moss) ; Loudon Union Railways; and Totteobani Far.
ringdon.street Railway ; that the fees which bad been in-
stirred io respect of the mid bills be remitted ; and
that the said report be referred to all select
iseeimitteea to which any railway bills within the limits
if the metropolis might be referred to in the present amnion.
21e remaining bills would, of course, go before select com-
mittees, and would be considered on their merits. (Hear.)
The resolution was agreed to.
Their lordships roes at half .past six.

if they belong to seem ei the societies Web I have been
deecribieg, no doubt they bare such ea lessee. (Hear.
But it seems that a pietty sturdy opposition; mat prompted
yanyligency at, all, was mimed to the object of the meeting,
d very coniierable uproar prevailed fa the way
that lieglislonse sometieses exhibit when they is.
assembbal together to cookies tosettle theirdiffereines. The
elmirroan of the meeting was Mr. George Patter. I believe
that is a well-known name. Is he not the far-famed
secretary of the Trades' Union—(beer, bear)—and is it not
a principle of them trade. melons—which, if they are value-
ten associations, are perfectly cad in the highest sense legi-
timate, and would give the working man his fair right of
self-defence against capital—is it not_ a prrnolple of these
trades unions, of which Mr. Potter is • lee. to 00011111 the
minority ? Aar, hear.) If that be the case Mr. Potter
was in he ea Saturday night, for it is the bunnies of
them societies to coerce often a minority and often a majo-
rity through the medium of an artfully constructed system
which pretending to consult the will of the people, deprives
them of all voice in the natter. I will only trouble the
house with stating the condition of two of these societies—
one ia the Legal Liverpool Friendly Society. It was enrolled ia
1843, lad thereforeis just of and has had plain of
time to consider its ways. Its ineoee freed premiums
amounts to 10,130/.; and the real capital which has emu.
rankled in 21 years, according to it own printed state-
ment, is 3,900/. (Hear, hear.) The other is • very bows eo-
ciety—the Royal Liver. It is 14 years old. T his is the so-
ciety which made 135,000 policies last year. Iht premium
name is 77,0001. What does the house suppose to be the
expenses of m nagemeat in dealing with that income?-
36,0001. (" Hear, ear," and laughter.) And its acamou-
lated masts, with an income of 77,000/., amount to 39,090/.
after 14 yean' working. The manager of that samety
came to me on Saturday, and remonstrated sgaiest the bill.
He mid it was a very hard case that we shouldinterfere with
' private enterprise. (Laughter.) They proposed a tint
plan 'which was Ithie—that government should appoint so- ,
manes who should examine the rules, tables, amounts,
and transactions of all frieedly societies. One at the object
time to this bill is that it gives peeresses to the (event:seat,
but snob a golden prospect of patronage—if )we were to
appoint actuaries to examine the amounts and transactions
ci 20,000 or 30,000 friendly societies—never dawned upon the
eye of a minister. Yet that was gravely stated to be their
plan. I imagine myself standing at this box and asking the
house on behalf of the governm est—if. indeed, any such
government could be found out of Bedlam—for power to
appoint °thaws to look into the accounts, tables, Mee, sad
transactions of 20,00) or 30,000 friendly societies. They are
to look into them for some practical impale—not merely to
satisfy certain formal conditions. ' What," I asked,
" should their scrutiny result in discovering the insolvency
of some of the societise r " Well, in that case," was the
reply, " the actuaries should propose rules that would make
them solvent." (Laughter.) Why, sir, if is were in the
power of the government to appoint oaken who, when they '
found an insolvent friendly society, should be able to sug-
gest raise that would make them soiree& we ought not to
stop there. So blessed an invention should be attended to
all mankind. We ought to go into the Bankruptcy Gourt,
and when any gentleman was found to be in that unfortu-
nateppsosition of insolveocy, instead of driving him to a harsh
arddisagreeatile extremity, rules ought to be migrated
that would make him solveat. (Renewed laughter.) A
proposal has been made by the bon. member for Hereford-
shire, which in my opinion could end in nothing but
mischief. In the first place, if • committee of this hones
were to do its duty by ezamtniog fully into these matters,
they would be obliged to go back further than I have done.
The exposure of thasecoocerns —I cannot tell what proportion
are solvent sod what insolvent—involves in my opinion • ,
very great responsibility, which this house ought not lightly
to incur. It would all be very well to noosed with • free
and easy hand in exposing that which may exiet if you had
nothing to do except to deal with the managers, secietariss,
auditors, and trustees, but vou have got to deal with the
immense mess of the labOuriog class throughout the
country ; and that which led us to believe that we ought to
propose • mild mean of gradual operation, such as we
now submit, was the apprehension of the enormous
mischief that might be done if • sodden alarm
wen to be spread throughout the country &mowed
a body amounting, in the case of the friendly societies.
to one million ands half of persons, besides several hutidred
thowands who are connected with other societies. (Heir.)
Sir, we decline that responsibility altogether. I am not
aware of any manner in which the compulsory regulation of
these societies can be undertaken by parliament. I dawn
cats the proposal to refer this subject to • committee, and I
renounce all responsibility for the mosequencee of that
exposure. I deeply regret that 1 myself have been com-
pelled to enter so far as I have done into details, and
I have done so only under a mime of my para-
mount duty to the House of Commons, which
chaos to demand an explanation of my motivee
in proposing the bill. Sir, I have now completed this
lengthened statement. (Cheers.) I have endemoured to
prove that parliament is by its legislation on behalf of
theme friendly societies seriously compromised, and respon-
sible for the present state of things. I have endeavoured
to show that the plan we propose is it practicable plea ;
that if it competes with sound institutions, it must com-
pete with them at a dimdvantage, from the essential condi-
tions upon which it is right and proper that it should
be worked ; that 'at present the wide field of
the labouring chasm is not occupied by sound institutions
—no, not even by unsound institution,. Such is the enor-
mous breadth of the subject with which we are dealing.
I have shown that the present condition of many of the
friendly societies, speaking generally, is more or leis uneatie-
factory. Some of them we cannot call merely unsatisfac-
tory—we must all them rotten, or even fraudulent. I have
shown that it is impossible for the state to assume the direct
regulation of them smietiee. I make my appeal not to one
clams or to another. It is a sacred trust we have in hand.
and I do entreat hon. members to take • view ci the motives
and consequences involved in the case, and I am quite
certain that they will nut be preveited by any sentiment
of political or party feeling from giving their grave coo-
sidmation to the question, or from determining in their own
minds and heart. how the British legislature can best
acquit itself of this important portion of its obligations
to the great mama of the community. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN said that he thought the right
hoe. gentleman should not have held up in the manlier
he had done the deputation which had waited upon
him ; he should not have held up their balancetheeta, nor
have made statements is respect to them which he had
made. If Shoes statesman had been made anywhere else
than in that house he would not have been prated, If
the government would listen to the advice of ponces who
understood these societies—not himself, hut persons who
had written about them—they would introduce a measure by
which they would perfectly control these societies. He
maintained that if this measure passed the government must
eventually be losers. They might shot their eyes obstinately
for • time, but sooner or later they must come to the house,
and with shame and confusion admit that the result had
been to saddle the shareholders with • heavy loos, those
shereholdeni being ths already overburdened British tax.
men.
Lord STANLEY said he cordially concurred in the prin-
ciple on which this bill was limed. But he felt
doubt as to the prospect of this measure being sea
easefully worked. He did not gather from the right hon.
gentleman what was the security against what he considered
the great danger to be apprehended, and that was per-
meation. The right boo. gentleman said there were a great
many pewee who would be the natural allies of the go-
vernment in any such attempt, clergymen and others, who
would defeat it. That applied no doubt to • rural district,
and to a small neighbourhood, but he feared it would not
apply to large cities. Suppose, for instance,an insunoos
was effected by John Smith, and that he was an engineer,
and was bon in Glasgow ; that he went to Manchester in
search of work, and thence to London, and passed some time
there, and then they wore told that John Smith, an engi-
neer of Leedom was dead, and that the insurance money
was claimed. He thought there would be some difficulty
in proving the identity. Then there was the inquiry as to
dimmed or healthy Urea He understood the right hon.
gentleman to say that this inquiry was not material if • man
had temperate habits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained that
he did not propose that • medical examisatiou should be
dispensed with. Os the contrary, he said that it would be
regain* and that the medical officers of unions would be
employed for that purpose.
Lord STANLEY said that the medical officers of unions
were already fully employed. As • principle, however, the
employment and habits of life of the insured were to be the
material points of the ease. This he had Ward for the first
time, and it was • novel &minim. He thought they ought
to go more carefully into the question before they admitted
that principle. The third point on which he wished for in-
formation was, whether the consolidated fund was to be
liable to make good any deficiency. He only wished to cell
attention to these points. He should be prepared to go
into committee on the bill with a very sincere hope that it
might pass.
Mr.;HI BBERD believed it was no part of the duty
of the government to undertake life insurances. That
opinion was held by many skilled and great writers upon
political economy. If the government undertook these
paternal duties, the people would is the end do 'lotting for
themselves, and coosequintly he was opposed to thia mea-
sure.
Mr. ROEBUCK would do the right hoc. gentleman
the justice to state that he had made a powerful appeal
to the house, but the attack which he had made on
certain parties would not redound to his credit. The in.
Norma) of lives is of necessity • matter of danger and dial.
culty, but this was in pert met by the answer that the
parties would have the security of the government bat
was to say, that the working classes would not run the same
as at present. But on the other band, the eneetry
tiagirtr suffer through the machinery which the right hoe.
gentleman would introduce for the working of his plan ; it
might prove to be wholly unfit fur the purpose, and
therefore might fail. He would again ask the right hon.
gentlemen to give further time for the consideration of this
bill. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY mid be felt deeply impressed
with the importance of the subject, and ads that it was
not the ditty of the government to interfere In this matter.
He would join with the noble lord the member for Ly an in
'skim for further time to wonder the principle involved ion
' the WI, which was novel to the house aid to the sown try.
He thought the further proceedings in the bill ought to be
postponed until after Easter. (Hear, hear.)
lir. NEWDEG ATE said that having been one of those
members who on Ender arming urged upon the right boa.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to proceed
further with this measure until he had made • statement, he
felt boned to Omsk the right boa. gentle sun for having
bressibt his peat ability te the Irk of eases* the swops.

MARCH 8,

gallon of the house—a matter in which the right
honourable gentleman had evidently succeeded—is the
mere important duty of explaining to the gnat masses of his
conetertoeu that be was not proceeding to interfere with
that which was one of their dearest tolerate without cots.
nee ; the right boa. gentleman having at his command that
information which the government only powered, and of
whirls perhaps the right hos. gentleman was the most corn.
p 'kat judge.
Yr. FORSTER said he heated the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would listen to the appeal which had been made
to him, and postpone the discussion for some re...sociable
time, alt the argumente and statements which the right hoc.
gentleman had need that evening bad maspletely altered the
position of the home with respect to the bill. He (Mr.
Fonder) had come down to the home to listen to the intro-
duction of a bill the object of which was to provide a secure
investment for deferred annuities for working men, but the
right boo. gentleman's speech placed him in an entirely
different position, for it opened up a set of charges against
friendly societies which nattered it imposnble that
the house could part with the subject except
after the fullest investigation. The right boo. gentleman
bed told them that the societies established for protecting
the savings of the working man, first, were subsidised by the
state, and therefore that the state wee responsible for them ;
and, second, that a very large portion of them were fraudu-
lent or ineolvent. The effect of this statement would be to
inflict a tremeedona blow on these societies throughout the
country, and although he thanked the right hon. gentle.
man for the courage with which he bad grappled with the
question, the state in which be left it made it ab-
solutely necessary that they should go further. He
(Yr. Forster) should be glad of the opportunity of
investigation afforded by a select committee, and
if that could not be obtained, that time should
be given for the fullest possible discussion. It was only
right that they should have these vague but grave charges
against the societies with which poor men deposited their
money, before them in a mere detailed form. (Hear.)

Mr. BOVILL believed the more the measure was con-
sidered, the more it would commend itself to the wallies
classes ; and for himself he wished to express his oblige-
trans to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for introducing
it. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART believed that the authority
of Mill, which had been quoted against government interfer-
ence in the matter of itinerante, might be equally quoted
upon the other side, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
succeeded in making oats. good rare for exceptional legislation
in this case. He coecurred is the hope which had been
expressed that the accounts of these annuities would be
kept distinct from the aooeunta of the national debt, so that
they might be able in a short time to tell whether the mea-
sure was profitable or not. The scheme could only lie re-
garded sa experimental, and he hoped that ample time
would be given for its consideration. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said it seemed likely that the diacusion on
this matter would be postponed, sad after the very formi-
dable one. which the Chancellor 14 the Exchequer had
brought forward, he thought the wintry should have full
time to consider whether the mum had any foundation before
they were called upon to proems°, as opinios upoo the
measure. (Hear, hear.) He should not have ventured to
my anything at that stage of the bill but for the very dna(
manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
spoken with regard to friendly societies. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to insurance companies of the class under du-
Clllll6Oll be knew very little, and what Mlle be did know
was not much in their favour. (Hear, hear.) Bat the right
hoc. gentleman had spoken of friendly societies in very
strong language, " swindling" being the mildest term ap-
plied to them, and speaking generally the right hon. gentle-
man had declared that they were motile a satisfactory state,
sad even that they were fraudulent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—No, no, I
said some of them—that there were certain instances _

__—
Mr. HENLEY was glad to have afforded the right box
gentleman the opportunity of 'lain that coutradictioe, for
the pasta tenor of his speech that sight with regard to
friendly moieties would create • pants throughout the
country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAINE3 was glad that the laid meeker had called
attention to the feet teat the most profitable part of the
business of these societies, was the essinanee of lives. He
was told that the profits is the sick department, which was
a most important one of the operations of friendly societies,
was very small, the maximum being less than 10 per cent.,
whereas the profits upon the life asouranos might be rated
at 25 per cent. There were many societies that conducted
both branches pretty equally. The Mutual Providence Alliance
Society had about 3,500 cans of insurariosagainst sickest§ and
3,700 of life assurance, and it was the profit of 25 per coot
upon the life insurance that enabled them to aoatiaae. If
the effect of this measure were to undermine the life asap
ranee business, and the relative profit. of the two branches
were as he had stated them, they. might judge of the se-
rams nature of the panic which might arise from the fact
that the number of am engaged in registered and unre-
gistered societies in England and Wales was about 3,000,000,
and the property involved about 11.500,0001. The Post-
office savings banks had been a great and brilliant moms,
bat the operation in their case wen use of extreme simplicity
as compared with life assurances. It would be dangerous
to employ small country tradesmen in the delicate matters
connected with life assurance ; and the medical officers of
the poor law union, though an efficient body of men, were
amongst the youngest of their profession, and were scarcely
the clam to be entrusted with the decision of the persons
to whom government guarantee should be given, extending
over a number of years. He was aerials
.that the matter
should have full, careful, and patient inquiry, and he should
have been glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had pro-
posed to refer a question of such magnitude to • select com-
mittee. There were many honestly conducted societies of
this description, and he feared that the spas* of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would create • panic ie the country
which would jeopardise the savings of many rem of indoa-
trious and careful working men. These societies were of a
representative character, and they were in his opinion of the
greatest value in brining the working cleans together in on.
operatioa of the most laudable and profitable description.
Admitting that further legislation was requisite, the present
measure was much too sweeping and extensive in its cha-
racter. Both financially and socially be thought there were
grounds for caution and hesitation in the matter, and he
sincerely hoped his right boo. friend would consent to refer
the bill to a select committee

Mr. HARVEY LEWIS said the speech of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, able as it was, hail not convinced him of
the propriety of this mesa" although be thought it would
go fez to produce a panic with regard to these societies.
CAusideriog the immense amount of money invested in
them it was greatly to be regretted that any doubt should
be thrown upon their stability. He was willing to admit
that there were grave faults io the system. but it was much
to be deprecated that all these societies should be exposed
to unmerited suspicion on account of the faults of a few.
Were they to suppose that the whole of the government
departments ware free from difficulty in the management of
their affairs! It was quite likely that in attempting to cure en
evil confemedly great they would fall into one infinitely
greater. Many people had lost their all by the failure
of beaks, but were the government on that account to estab-
lish a private system of banking toroughout the country!
He strongly deprecated any idea of the government am-
trade( in itself the whole of the induasry of the country!
and he trusted this was not an attempt to insert the thin
end of the wedge. If this speculation proved unfortunate,
who was to pay the cost of it ! The taxes of the country,
heavy as they were, were cheerfully given to support the
neoessary I.kxpeaditure of the country, but ha doubted if they
would be given es &serf ully for purpose* of mere speculation.
He thought that people had not had a fair and ample oppor-
tunity of judging of the full effect which the measure would
be likely to produce.

Bir N. FARQUHAR moved the adjournmeet of the de-
bate. He believed his right hon. friend would be ready to
assent to the adoption of such a coarse on condition that
the adjournment should be until Thursday week, and that
the bill should not go into committee until after Filter.

Mr. J. R. ?ELLS wished to learn what wu the scale of
premiums oa which the government proposed to act. He
very much feared, from what had pared that evening, that
a very serious panic would prevail with respect to these
friendly societies, and he thought that more discrimination
ought to have been shown on the subject. Since the
government had granted annuities the arnrance societies
had abandoned that branch of busier& He Ina afraid
the scheme of the right boa. gentleman would tun out to
be a failure.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be was
quite willing that the further prosecution of the debate
Mould be adjourned to Thursday week, and that then the
Speaker should leave the chair for the purpose of reporting
program, and that they should go into committee op a con.
comsat day after the Easter mess. He quite agreed that
it wee desirable then should be time gives to cossidier acme
of this kind. As to the question of the boo. member (Mr.
Mills), the returns which the boo. gentleman asked for were
really in hie hand. He fully recognised the duty of the
House of Commons to inquire carefully into such a schema
He understood his bon. friend (Mr. H. Lewis) to state that
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had declared that it
would not be possible to test the solvency of any scheme of
-mamma for 37 yeses after ih establishment. What be Meted
was this, that the payments upon the death in life
issuance societies need sot exceed the receipts upon
premiums for a period of 37 years, sad his authority for
thatelittement came tram Dr. Farr. He believed it wee
I very general that a valuation should be taken at the end of
every five years. In the report of Mr. Wilson's committee
is 11333 it was recommended that it should be imperative on
each company to show • complete list of their risks and
liabilities. I believe it is perfectly possible at any period to
test the solvate, of any assurance society whatever. Thee
as to the internal operatioa of the friendly societies, and
the proportion of their sick charges to their death charges,
he ism so information in his possession beyond what
was possessed by the house at large. With regard to the
geserality of friendly societies, he had not the smallest
doubt that the great mass of them had been formed in per
honesty of purpose. It bad been mid that he had
made accusations when there was nobody to answer them ;
but what were those mossatiose ? Ho had told oo secrets
to the house. He was not aware of • single statement is
the remarks he had addressed to the house that mania(
which did not net upon printed and published evidence
just &smirch in the pommies of boo. members as of himself.
The boa member for Marylebose was apprehensive of the
effect which the bill might have upon friendly menties
He Kim Chamellor of the Exchequer) took, however, •
much more sanguine view of the teas than the boa gentle-
man appeared to do. He could not forget the many abor.
tire at which were made to reform the savings banks
by ewasesdve semeeseessie damn • period of twenty yarn.
At lees* the Plei•elliee laviage Bask Bill paned. The

1861.

new banks came somewhat into competition with the old
ones, and all the difficulties which had been experienced in
the way of reform disappeared. The boo. baronet ("lir H.
Willoughby), perhaps the mast legitimate representative of
the old backs, himself introduced a most effecti►e and
stringent bill, and the banks were at last placed on a footing
which rendered them perfectly secure. What had taken
place before he (the Chaueelbr of the Exchequer) really
belie►ed would occur again. Every attempt to amend
the friendly societies bad as yet proved • failure,
but the moment • competing body was established, they
would everywhere find • gre►t desire to put upon • sound
and satisfactory basis these, in their intention, meet ex-
°onset institutions. (Cheers./
The motion for the adjournment of the debate w•e then
agreed to.
The Land Drainage (Provisional Orders) Bill and the
Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes (Ireland) Bill
passed through committee.
The Mutiny Bill and the Marine Mutiny Bill were read •
second time. _ .

The other business was also disposad of, and the house
athotused at five mivates pest 11 o'clock.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.

HOME CIRCIIIT.—CRELMSFORD, Miami 7.
The commission for the county of Eimer was opened hento-day. The pol calendarl light as regards the quality of
the offences charged, although the number is rather larger
than could bare been expected, considering that titers was
• winter pol delivery. The cause list will not be made up
until this (Tuesday) morning, but there are very few causes
at present entered. The Lord Chief Baron will preside on
the crows side and Lord Chief Justice Erie will dispose of
the civil causes.