The Express.
London, England, 1852-02-19 00:00:00

COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.

Mr. BRIfiIIT moved that this bill be read • second time.
Sir J. I'AKIN(ITON said he thought it very likely that
hon. members were not aware that this bill was very dif-
ferent (rum former hills that bad been brought in on this
subject. Ile should give this bill his most decided
opposition. Ile thought that this measure was not ap-
plicable to our countiee, and that it was not wise for
parliament, for the sake of attempting a theoretkal
improvement, to tamper with arrangements which
had lung worked bmetteially to the country, never
more than at the present time, and which were
now avowedly conducted with greater publicity, with
greater economy, ace with greater regard to the Interests of
the public than at any former period • but, though he en-
tertained them opinions, lie had no 'hesitation fa saying
that if the right bun. gentleman had brought this hill in
the same shape in which it came out of the gesnmitlee lest
year, or if he had even introduced it in the mom shape It.
which be brought it into the house at the commeneensentei
last session, whites er his own opinions might be, consider-
ing that that house had so far recognised the bill as tossed
it to • select committee, he should not have comidered
self justified in opposing the second reading of the bill,
though he should have stated his of to the details;
but the right hon. gentleman had not brought it in
ether in the shape in which it was last year or in the'
@haps in which it left the committee. la all the former
measures that the right hon. gentleman had proposed it was
intended that the county board should be constituted one
half of persons elected by the ratepayers, and one-half by
the magistrates. But in the bill now introduced
be had thrown out the magistrates altogether They '
no longer were to form part of these county bards
unless they were elected by the ratepayers. Now he
submitted to the house that this was a change in the prin.
eiple of the bill so essential and tes important that it fully
justified the eosins be (Sir J. Pakin:ton) was now taking,
and he could net believe that either the House of Commons
or her Majesty's government would consent to the sewed
reading of the hip, framed as it now was. He appealed to
the right hon. baronet at the head of the home department
whether he was prepared to sanction a measure which was
to throw over the jurisdiction of the magistrates in the
government of the gaols, in the management of the police
force, and in many other points in which the magistrates
now exercised jurisdiction, and whether, in the present state
of the police force of this country, it was not essentially im-
portant that the magistrates should retain the power they
now had. and the same with regard to the gaols.
hlr. HOBERT PA LM KR ,as a member of the select car
Mince to which the former bill wee referred, could say that that
bill was fully considered by that committee, and he had come
to the house prepared to give the bill his support ; butfrhat
was his surprise when it was pointed out to him that the
principle of the bill was altogether altered. (Hear, bear.)
The principle—to which be by no means objected—of the
bill of last ye ir will, that those who contributed to the
county rates should have •• voice in the expenditure. It was
provided that the boards of guardians should nominate one
half of the county bused, and that the magistrates should
nominate the other half; but the principle of this bill was
totally different. This bill gave the nomination entirely to
the hoards of guardians. He must say the right hon. gen-
tleman had not dealt fairly by the house. If he understood
the meaning of referring a bill to a select committee, it was
that that committee should consider it, and report the re-
milt of their deliberations to the hose. But this
was not the hill that was agreed to by the com-
mittee. The hon. member in conclusion referee Ito aurae-

rem communications from boards of guardians in Berkshire,
conveying the opinion that the bill was annecesairT. Until
he saw a much stronger opinion in the country in favour
of each • bill he should join in opposing it.
Mr. M. GIBSON begged have to say, that, is-
amuck as it bad devolved almost as • matter of
duty upsa him to move in this question, he coati-
dined himself entitled, as he was bringing is the
bill, to have the provisions of it is aceonlassee with kis
own opinions, adhering to the principle of the mews.
leaving it to the house to alter the details in ems.
mines if it should please them. He contended that
there was not the slightest deviation in the prio-
r** of the bill. What was the principle of
the bill ? Simply to constitute county financial boards.
Ile admitted that the hill, as originally Uoiod cos-
dilated the Moods ass. half of magistrates, esse-half of
prams set megiotstre • bat the select committee had
lamb verygeom aitmatisie se to the powers to be vested in
ewe bassi Ow siterstien wav, that the boards were to
he strictly isissmiaL mid mot in the slightest degree to Meech
upon the judicial fonetioas of the magistrates, who were to
retain the escalation of the gaols. the apeointtnent of offi-
cers, sad NW matters. The eommittee having made those
alterations. it was ao lewd edeessery to provide, as •
muter of stomm_ , at the masismsten, or a certain portion
of them, ilssuill he Membees of that board. Power was
kit to the to seism megistrstes if they pleased,
but not them to do so ; iessmuch as the boards
would de vadbisi that would trench upon the ju-
dicial fandieas of the magistracy. in making these
alteration% be hod acted in accordance with the prin-
ciple UM down by the committee, that these
boards should be strictly financial. In this bill,
he (Mr. Gibson) had adhered to the first decision of
the cossatittee, which Its thought the correct and proper
emu That pnneipts had been supported by the
President of the Poor Law Board (Mr. Bahia),
the Animas of the committee ; it was by has
testing men that it was carried. He was sot
ammo of asp ohm alteration. The bill contained • groat
deal which ha ammittes had originated, many details of
asomidoeolde imagism*, and many points for which the
OlimMilla• west Weaned to the hoe. baronet (Sir .I.
Pabloghs) the maim ler Droitwich. It was very desirable
hot the goveissorst simmisid take title metier into their own
hes& The principle of the bill hoofing bows twice asseuted
Wby the berme. the moserom woo is a peaks ho he takes up
by dm gemnimeat ; they engirt to base hit tuba duty to
bring is aim bill for tarmac out het poirelpla is practi-
cal legldatios. Me would gladly alommiss the bill if the
cdit
gemismoot wadi ve • pledge to Me It sp. NM »-
potted to gm by the state of the Meshes ',poke,
that ham hod mode it is aim seata gees-
lies. Ms boss -clouded at Wise a es the
paper for the bit to be read • semmolithos tire day sea
months ; and bo might complain of the unfairsom of hoe.
gentlemen epsomite with greater mamas than they could
=that sharp to him. It Wm perfectly tiniest
they wadi Imo it is hair power to alas
Mao to which hey ihiestsdi is asommittem lie
the ratepayer to ham it in their power to diem
him all dams, whether magistrates or sot. it sad pawn
barium moo to metre' the appliamion and elvish's,. of
the toasty Mon That
the
the am Apple rint* of the
hill ; sod he hoped that the beams would seta' by drew*
It toot at the totted reading, declare that Os moghtratee
Amid semliame iseamlod with imosposible ININNI over
these lams soma

eir 0.-0111 T aid, ee the ben. baronet Idle bad waved
the ameniment had dbilnelly appealed to bin ea basing
given • pest deal ef allediea te the 'abject, be we
state the deem whieb be bit it his ditty to take. He did
set wasp is the esessie ad as ids debt bee. lased ix
Wisps. a bill bads the been eadied hie owa dews,
and rne re and el the bead te tes sad doodle
whisk be was yersgesed es wilveeste W ressamead. It
wend have bees bllll9. at the sane ties., toe at the
ladeseas Mamas* between this 1111 sad the Safest ems,
bad the bow. sedienee eased daft a oodles ea
movies le issables the bill : bet pelap the maw slaw
deist time he his to write that eletseesat tree the see be
bed the.... Whig the API boa palm= wee at fell
Elesedeg al be did new Pe asides a the saw
Mates, to ..k the bean to seesein his owe TUT
re / *see
wits es • fano* deaths bed ademesed the
alzet
passeatetlea swap bends kr the a
the ease ty Moe, wave eel at ell Weed to
this bill, without eissidedes what bed side lobe=
whet bed been the eseemeadatiees of the seaultlee
led per, sad whet ware the details, ea well as the plod.
pid a die bill saw sehaltad to the besot While seta
last year that be did set think there was say great
to be remedied, or that thee we. the abase Walk there
was aid le be la the eddisisteedes ef the duty reine, is
width 'peke be wee be ea by the predesi dialer
tie. d the sainly saw he 11110 1110161 19 deny es psis.
aisle that lbw wapit bp be es alphas of the repeats.
wire Owl* asked he Me Ilea beards. He bed she
aid that Pe added wee a seed amplkated eme, width
did set 'PPP to be.thereedbly waleeessed by *me Ida
bed the bill, te way apps dead, of wbisb be
epeaud• sad be had only coeseetal to be eased redly
• ba aria boa. Mend Treeing te refer it he • salsa seer
iodise, ea whisk be sand le give ell the adialsase he
dell. The wee dew lad be bed sawn INg In • SIM&
Oa; re isembete d tibia pre ware renewer sad den
,waded thaw we Pau I. Pis MIL The ht i
basswahle bed bear dead
ths p whet semen Thee 111/0
knostass bases She IS sew pepeed
eta that a last yew Is Ms edited ship, aa dos. be,
Mee the pat see mad am 11119M11•61119911 if the
emsalttee. The IS et lasi TM pepped the the law*
amid andel peakd wayiefeeess awl ladyat seedbed
sleeted by the bawds apealleeles stab hart of nudism
rettirsing ink The mambas mode De elteratass is wtfeige4 wasp es swathe stepaiew as tette
of lidwg asiplielas hatistlkie to be dededry I=3
pridiews. Nye ibe h Sot poles= lessdl est
mislieeses dwell be noised. pm. )
bac
The bards wen Is be elested. awl Hoy were te be
shesse, ad by the mire beads edeardifew, but the me-
puma were also saddled hen ad are, se aseehsee
These beards, le the eheise a their repersatethee. (Hear,
haw.) He we ast yespeed le epee tie that exclasios ; he

Eirßig
mai twe remont
from arIV
Mr. r,
SNAIL 0

7

to • bill ohlok gelded hioriateitee
is the business of the cennty.
alla alter UM to easamittim.
AY did get tklak that • natter es width it
was asemoury again to refer to • esenatittee. The
bill of last year and the potent one trans-
fened all the powers and duties of the magistracy as to
tie ementy essallatielery I. these eensty boards. The
committee bad discussed this =attar very fully; he bad
beeitoharged with pttiaptheir dashes reverted, which
he had so to do; bat he believed the conviction had
heed ibY the minim of the elsomittoe, that their
e hag ben. moat It toss on the invitation
setreight lea. baresiet (Sir J. Graham) that the ems-
Wilkie had roseasidated their deifies. They thought it
swpikespoilkst. maadviaable, sad iiingerosa to the pub-
awl tie megimatee theeld be deprived of all con-
do olke egeeleAmet of the tansiabialary, or the diree-
Wadi bias, the hill was sew in a state in which
leadi eel prellize give hie mast to it. If he saw any
sureralle plead le hope that the right honourable
Ca=Pauli aoseen• to each amendments, or
he... well eimbidr is it the modi-
fied Fisch& to OW* he hail given his la-
' pot bet year, he ahead dm be pewee to anent to it.
Bat be looked for se result whatever from giving
the bill a second rest is the present occasion; the only
malt would be to ammo a great deal of time very fruit-
lessly in the considerable olftletailr.
Mr. BRIGHT did not *Yak that anything had been
mid to show that, it it Will desirable to go into the question
at all, a coed deal emsl be made out of the measure
submitted by his etpithea. friend. The points on which
there wee any diffineerlo etopinion between the right hon.
gentlemen and the poemillort of the bill were so few that it
would be oempetint tilt the hews in committee to make
such altarediens and compromises se might make the bill
what the giOt hon. baronet intended. For Instance, the
right hen. breast might neve be osnuoittos of the house
the dame Mahe ho had owed be the saes isemmitte up-
stairs. Assandag that go Ileum aseeptol that disuse, it
would be pat in the bill; aril hen. podestes appetite who
bad no other objection to the bill snail- vote fur
it. It was perfectly astorlous that the right hon.
bm..et (Sir G. Grey) had exerted his influence in com-
mittee for the purpose of making the bill as little like its
possible. Hence the promoters could not agree
be it as altered, and had requested his right bon. friend to
bring it in in its present form The consequence was the
bin would not be read a second time. It was perhaps not of
much consequence whether it poised in this session or the
Mat ; but a bill would certainly be pared before long
baying the object of the present bill. They had nothing to
impost from the right hoc. Secretary of State, who had been
• ilimesaled opponent of the bill all along, and now opposed
fu EagEEDES said it was impossible for a more impartial
at= to have been pursued in the committee than had
ben lakes by the right hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) mad the
Peadhant of the Poor.law Board (Mr. Baines). The Ott.
ediet n the bill were matter of principle, not of
Me

_Mr. HUME hoped the right hon. baronet would re-
smolder his determination, and allow the bill to go into
committee.

Mr. HENLEY thought the country would have little dif-
, Scotty in deciding who were the real friends of economy in
the expenditure of county rates. lied the right hon. gen-
tleman chosen to be guided by the two committees that had
sat on the subject, he might have produced a measure which.
would have been generally acceptable. larked of this, he
charged his opponents with party views, and his colleague (M r.
Bright) had charged the right hon. baronet (Sir O. Grey)
with doing all in his power to throw over the bill. Ile
thought people out of doors would conclude that the bill
had been brought forward merely to get up an agitation.
Mr. BARROW thought it essential that some bill of this
description should par. The power of the magistrates as
to the relief of the poor had been transferred by the Poor-
Law to the boards of guardians, and the change had worked
well and satisfactorily for the country. The prabability
was that other powers might be transferred with equal ad-
vantage.
Mr. CURISTOPHER said it would be absurd to sanc-
tion a measure en dissimilar from that of last year.
Mr. W. PATTEN supported the second reading, in the
hope of being able to restore the bill in committee to its
former state.

HEY WOOD supported the second reading, but re-
gretted the compromise clause had been withdrawn.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading 63
Against l3O-67
COMMONS INCLOSURE BILL
This bin wee read a 'cooed time.