The Express.
London, England, 1863-07-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESIM,S EVENINQ-) JULY 1, 1863.

frderacy ? In coetegosooo of moons &gloat, be
also to ask, *bother any recent COMMUDieRtion liadbaMt
roceived (rem the Freculi government reTiestiog a joint
offer of mediation. or proposal for au armistice, between
the contending parties in America
Yr. LAYARD—It is very important that I should give a
clear and definite answer to the question of my hoe. friend.
I have then to say. that no oninmaiication whatever, either
no regard. mediation, or armistice, or recognition, or mar
thing of that nature, has up to this time been made to her
Majesty's government by the French government. (Cheers.)
Of muse, I mean since last autumn.

PRECEDENCE BETWEEN DUBLIN AND EDIN-
BURGH.

1 Mr. BLACK asked the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, is regard to the printed °corespondent. re-
lating to the corporations of Edinburgh sad Dublin. if the
deliverance of Sir Charles Young. Garter King at Anne, is
to he held as antloritetive in the question of precedence
between Edinburgh sad Dublin in presenting addresses to
her Majesty.
Sir G. GREY said be knew no higher authority on the
subject alluded to by the hon. member than Carter King at
Anna.
THE COMBINED NOTES TO RUSSIA.

Mr. FIORSIIAN pve notice that on Thumley next he
should ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
on what day the French and English notes arrived at St.
Petersburg, and on what day they were preifrated to the
Russian minister; also on what day the Austrian note
arrived at St. Petersburg. and whether her Majesty's
ambaneador was instructed to keep tack tin English note
until the Austrian note had arrived.
DETENTION OF THE GIBRALTAR.

Lord It. CECIL asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether two port Blakealey guns which
bad been shipped on board the Gibraltar at Liverpool had
been detained in pursuance of an order of the government,
and whether he would lay upon the table of the house any
instructions and correspoodence which had taken place on the
subject. The noble lord read a portage from a letter in
which the alleged detention was stated, and which also »-
promoted that the collector at the port of Liverpool
had stated when making the seizure that had the guns been.
intended for the service of the Federal States no objection
would have been made to their shipment ; and further, that
such shipment. to New York were of common occurrence.

The SOIIOITOR.GENEItAL said he had been requested
to reply to the question, and had to observe that the letter
read by the noble lord ought to be • warning to the house
against listening too readily to suggestions of that descrip-
tion. So far re the government were aware there was not •
particle of truth in them. (Hear, bear.) He believed it
was impossible that say odker of the government at the
port of Liverpool could have no greenly misrepresented his
untroctioos. The facts were these. The Gibraltar, the well.
known mac-of-war of the Confederate States, was formerly
called the Sumter. A sale of the vessel took place, the
*laity of which, accordiuo to the laws of war, had never
hews admitted by the Federal States, but the government
felt that it was a question which they could not decide.
When the government were informed that this vessel, after
her alleged purchase by • mercantile firm at Liverpool, was
lying at that port, and that she was being armed with two '
guns of extraordinary weight and power. they felt it to
be their duty to satiety themselves whether they were
meant as en armament for the vessel, or for cargo ; or
whether there was reason to believe that the intention of
the shipment was of • different character. The port clear-
ance of the vessel was ordered to be delayed, but only until
ovidence could be obtained to satisfy the government on
these points. As soon as it was sumwtained that the guns
could not be used for the detente of the ship, being too
large for the bows, and Sc guns by themselves could Lot be
stopped, the delay of the port clearance was removed.
(Hear, bear.)
Lord R. CECIL said his question had not been answered.
He wanted to know whether the papers would be laid upon
the table.

hued with Northern feelings that they express indignation
at this assertioe, but the truth is known that our Warner
would destroy their fleet. ('' Oh! ") Their armies are melt-
lug away. Their thermion Is tolling back. Washington is
in danger. And the only fear the North hes is, that the
indepandeiooe of the South will be established without the
abolition of slavery. (Hear, hear.) Them is soother argu-
ment which I wish to present to the minds of such
hon. gentlemen opposite as are capable of un-
derstanding it. ("Oh, oh I") Itis this: • large portion
of our tualtufactoriug population have been Hein for some
months upon charity. - Noss people in that condition very
soon acquire the habit of idleness, after idleness has been
enforced upon them ; and I have learnt from Manchester
that already an unwillingness to labour is creeping upon the
people, and if we have to keep them in idioms through the
coming winter we don't know what the consequences will
be upon our manufacturing population. Now, again, I
will give the words of his Majesty the Emperor of the
Enoch—and they are very remarkable. He said, "I dread
the coming winter with regard to my manufacturing popu-
Litho." (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend the member for
Sunderland said, "We do not dread the coming winter,
though we know that great misery must be entailed upon
our manufacturing population if the cotton famine con-
tinues ,• but we desire to avert a calamity from our country-
men which will necessarily arias from • continuation of that
famine." (Hear.) I will, as shortly'," I can, state the memo
why I have been induced to address the house. At the
present moment there is offered to us • great Weepiest*.
(Hem' hear.) If we take time by the forelock that time will
prove of advantage to us, and we shall become a greater
people, and England will be the imperial city of the world ;
but if we abstain from Lakin advantage of the opportunity
offered to us it will go at ones and for ever. By adopting
the resolution we shall do no harm to the black men of the
South, but, on the contrary, it will, if agreed to, be the
1 means of preventing further bloodshed and injustice. The
hon. and learned gentleman concluded amidst great cheer-
tag by moving the resolution of which he bad given notice.
Lord R. MONTAGU moved the following amendment :
" That this house earnestly desires that an impartial
neutrality should continue to be maintained by her Ma-
jesty's government during the present unhappy °outwit
in the states of North America? No one (observed the
noble lord) more admired than himself the noble struggle
of the Southern states for their independence ' • but
when he wished to bring a matter before the home
it was not his habit to run one day to the Emperor
of Austria and the next to the autocrat of France for advice.
He argued from numerous precedents that the time had not
yet arrived for England to take action on this question ; that
recognition at this time would, therefore, be premature,
and an armistice would have no other effect than to per-
petuate discord. War would inevitably follow with the
United States, and the consequence of that moat be • greatly
increased burden of taxation upon our people.
Mr. CLIFFORD gave his cordial support to the &mead-
men ; but whilst fully egreeiog with the conclusions to
whic the noble lord had come, be did not wish it to be
supposed that he coincided with the sentiments by which
those conclusions were prompted. (Hear.) Although he
did not at all approve of the language which bad been need
by the hou. member for Sheffield, he would other himself
Adele from any violence of language on either side, for be
believed it was a struggle in which both parties had acted
from moseieutious motives. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if
there was one moment beyond anther more incon-
venient for making • motion of this hied, be thought
that even the hoe. end learned gentleman himself
mast confess that this was the most bowmen's:it
(Cheers.) He did not my that the issue of thia contest
was, humanly speaking, in any degree doubtful, but this
he did say, that there was not • single epoch daring the
whole period of the contest which bad now been raging
between two and three years, on which they could lay their
finger and say that at that point of time there were military
issues of such vast memos% both in the east and in
the west, and upon which so much depended, with
regard both to the position and the wishes and
intentions of the belligerent parties. (Hear, bear.)
But if the motion was objectionable upon principle, and if
the particular moment at which it was made was io some
respects unfortunate, there was another point, as to
, which lie bon. and learned friend must be held memo-
: able and that was for the speech with which he had in-
trodUced his motion. (Cheers.) He began with petty com-
plaints of the obloquy to which he was about to expose
himself. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) rather
pitied those who undertook to enter into • contest of that
nature with the hon. and learned gentleman. (Laughter.)
In that land of free speech, and to that house of freedis-
(tension they perfectly understood each other, with respect
to an occasional interchange of mere bard words. (A
laugh.) The speech of his hon. and learned Irked had an
importance far beyond the sharp words that might be
launched against this man or that ; he (Mr. Roebuck) could
not disguise, he was too honest and manful to disguise,
that his speech was couched in • spirit of the strongest par-
tisanship with the South. (Hear, hear.) A speech which
recommended recognition in • spirit of determined ad pas-
sionate partisanship wee likely to impart its own character
to the measure it recommended. It was not a very easy
matter to separate between recognition and intervention
and if it even were, the very fountain bead from which the
proposal proceeded, wan emaciated through the whole of
the argument with undisguised hostility to one ot the parties,
and what chance or hope therefore was there, if recognition
took place, of true neutrality being maintained ? But the
hon. and learned gentleman went on to speak of our duty
to the men of Lancashire. What was the nothing of that
part of the subject ? Recognition morely would not relieve
the men of Lancashire--(beer, bear)—and when the bon.
and learned gentleman spoke of the relief of the distressed
theme following as a result of the action he recommended,
he contemplated something more than recognition.
He would not stop there ; he would follow up
recognition with those other measures which alone
would, be thought, meet the necessities of the
ease, and the clear neemaities of the argument. Such being
the motion and the speech of the hon. and learned gentle-
man, he confessed that be saw very ample reason for their
not being adopted by the house. He did not believe that the
restoration of American union by force was obtainable.
He believed that the feeling of this country was almost
unanimous on that point. (Hear, hear.) He believed
further that public opinion in this country bore very
strongly on another question, end that wan ehetber the
emancipation of the negro race could be legitimately pur-
sued by means of coercion and bloodshed. He did not be-
lieve that a more fatal error was ever committed than when
men of high intellect and of sincere philanthropy came to
the COUCILIaIOII that the emancipation of the negro was to be
sought even if it were only to be reached by Unveiling
through a sea of blood. (Cheers.) With the people of
this country he earnestly desired to see the contest brought
to • close ; but did it therefore follow that
he was to support the motion ? What was the recognition
called for by the boo. and learned gentleman? Was it to
be with or without intervention ? The government felt with
the hon. and learned gentleman that it wan time this war
should end, but they had more faith iu the gentle action of
public opinion as it grew and was matured in Europe epos
the American mind than in any diplomatic act*, which
must tend to an appearance at least of interference
in American affairs, and particularly so if they came from
quarters which would have the appeerance of selfish motives,
and therefore suspected. (Hear, hear.) The government
were not indifferent to the manner in which the North had
pursued this war, still they would deprecate in the strongest
terms the motion of the hon. and learned gentlemen. The
house should not run the risk of making worse that which
was sufficiently horrible already; or add to those feuds
other fends and other quarrels which wield carry still wider
desolation over the whole face of the earth. (Cheers.)
?dr. W. FORSTER said he rose for the purpose of
supporting the amendment of the node lord. The
motion of the honourable and learned gentleman
wan a very distinct proposition to recognise the
South. He was glad that the question bad been brought
before the house, for the time was come when, in the in-
ternees of those whom they represented, they should decide
whether they intended to call upon the government to Jute?.
fere in this terrible war or not. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that recognition at this time would be premature and •
breach of neutrality, and there should be no net of interval-
tie) except they were prepared to enforce it by arms. Such
a recognition would be a caaus belli to the North if the
North chose to make use of it. The motion would be an
empty boast and a pompons nothing if they were not
prepared to enforce it. The honourable and learned
member's motion meant war or it meant nothing. (Hear.)
We could sot see what might be the result if we left the
contending parties alone, but we could see whet would pro•
habil, be the remit if we interfered. One probable result
would be that instead of the old 'mien Icing ton into
two conflicting clean:dm—North and South—it would be
tom into rose), states, sod we might by our assistance to
the @murmur the North, doom that great country to cen-
turies of anarchy and internecine oonflict. But what WAS
quite as likely to result from our ioterfereece wee that at •
great cost to ourselves we should node the North against
us, and the triumphant slave Confederacy could never be
the natural allies of Elegised, for the English people would
roma° true to the traditions of their freedom. He feared
this war, bemuse it would be a slavery war ;_ it would be
an unprovoked and aggressive war; nod, therefore, au
unjust war. (Rear, -hear.) He feared it because
it would be • barbarous and on-Christian war,
inasmuch se it would be • war on behalf of that system
which was in conflict with freedom, with the spirit of trite
religion, order, and morality, and he feared it also because
there was a great Ruler of nations to punish middle's
and injustice.
. _ . —.. . .. .. ..

Lora. CECIL, in supporting the motion, said the solemn
deolarstien of two great powers that the ease was hopeless
would givesn enormous blow to the war party. (Cheers.) It was
well-known that the press was subject to a virtual censor.
ship, and that the people knew very little how the facts
really stood; but recognition would teach the people not
to trust any longer to the statements of their leaders
and to the pregame of the contractors, who were making so
much wealth for themselves out of the war. (Hear. hear.)
It had struck him (the noble lords as very curious that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer should have abstained from
the slightest allusion to the remarkable statement of his
hon. and learned friend (Mr. Roebuck) with respect to the
Emperor of the French. The government might rest assured,
however, that the matter could not be embed le that way.
His hon. friend talked about the Emperor appniuting
second ambassador to the House of Commons. But what
was the mass The cause wee a deem on the part of the
hoe. member (Mr. Roebuck) to refute the absurd rumour'
which, for the defence of their owe policy, her Majesty's
government had circulated. (Oh, oh.) If the positive state-
ment of the boo. member was net socurate, let the Ceder-
Memytary get up and give it a !Genial teetvedietket. The

statement of ths hes. member was, that her Majesty's go-
rummest hadreesived from the Emperor as offer to mediate,
in coujnoctiou with England, 'between the two parties
in the.Usited States; that that offer was transmitted to
Lord Lyons ; that Lord Lyons betrayed it—of course he did I
lot mean to Lord Lyons with tressoa. but Lord
Lyons betrayaehda2: secret to Mr. Seward ; that Mr. Seward '
remonstated with the Preach minister ; sot that the first
definite reply the Emperor received so his offer was that
which thus same to bun through his minister at Washing-
ton. The house moat Lave au &Darter to that statement.
It would not be content to have it passed over as the
Chancellor of the Exchequer bad done it. The
Emperor, every out would allow, was a prudent
sod sagacious sovereign. and he would never have adopted
the very strange and extraordinary course of communicating
directly with the House of Commons.—(opmaition cheer.)
—a very strange and extraordinary °muse tt was—(cheers)
—unless lie had been driven to it by the treatment which be
had received from the Foreign-office. (Oh, oh.) The house
must have an explanation of this most extraordinary illus-
tration of the entente cordial*. No doubt the ahem* of
the noble vissouot made it very difficult to explain the
course taken by the government • for it was easy to see
how little able Majesty's ministers were to give say
definite outline of their policy when the noble viscount area
not there. (Laughter.) They had heard to-night that
there had been an answer given in the Mouse of Lords to a
statement which bad been made in the House of Commons.
(No no.)
Mr. FORSTER—My statement was this. I said that
Lord Russell had stated in another place that Baron Gros
bad called upon him to say that certain rumours were
entirely without foundation. (Hear.)
Lord R. CECIL thought the House of Commons might
likewise have had that important information brought down
to it by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs. (Hear.)
They had lately had several illuatnitions of the i 130011•001-
enee which resulted from having all the chief secretaries in
the other house, and ell the under-secretaries in this.
(Cheers.) They had frequently had important explaoatioos
given in the other house which had been refused to this.
Wear, bear.) It was clear that her Majesty's government
stood alone, the single obstacle to that recognition of the
South which would procure food for our starving opera-
tives ; and that for the course they had taken they must
make • more satisfactory defence than the vague and
loose theories which had been propounded by the Chan-
oslior of the Exchequer. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHTsaid that the motion taken in counexioa with
Mr. Roebuck's character, his speech on this occasion, and
speschearliewhere, ought be taken as an address to the crown
asking for • declaration of war, while he asked the house to
accept the lead of the Emperor of the French in this
matter, a potentate in whom not long ago be declared be
had no faith. He contended that the feeling which dictated
this motion rested oo • mean jealousy or a base fear of Ame-
rica. He denied the power or the will of the United
states to act aggressively towards England or any other
European nation, and he protested against Mr. Roebuck's
raising • cry calculated to bring on hostilities between this
country and a friendly nation, while he would seek alliance
for his country in a slaveholding state.
Mr. P. WYNDHAM moved the adjournment of the
debate. (Loud cries of "Lindsay," and "Go oo.")
Mr. LINDSAY rose to address the house amid mice of
"divide."

Sir G. GREY said he should be sorry to interpose be-
tween the boo. member for Sunderland and the house, but
he desired to give an answer to • question which had been
put by the noble lord the member for Stamford in
the course of the debate. He should say
in=
of the extraordinary conduct of the hoe. sad
gentleman, who had charged himself with the personal
duty of enlightening the home as to the views sod inten-
tions of the sovereign of another country with regard to •
question of great public interest, and who had conde-
scended to make himself the channel of complaint of
• foreign sovereign against the government of his
own country. To my the least, it was • great
breach of courtesy; but he thought the noble lord
the member for Stamford bad attached more importance to
that statement than the rest of the house bad done. (Hoar,
hear.) The noble lord complained that hie right hon. friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad not noticed the ex-
traordinary statement made by the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield, and had expressed a hops
that before the debate closed her Majesty's government
would give some explanation on the subject.. He (Sir G.
Grey) was totally unable to give any explaoation of the
statement of the bon. and learned member for Sheffield. He
could only say that all the hon. and learned gentleman had
dated was totally at variance with the information pos-
sessed by the government as to any communications having
passed between the government of France and her
Majesty's government on the subject of recognis-
ing the Southern States. (Hear, bear.) At an earlier
part of the evening, in reply to the boo. member for Brad-
ford, his hon. friend the Uuder Secretary for Foreign
Affairs stated that no communication, at least no recent
communication had been received from the government of
Francs by her Majesty's government proposing mediation
with regard to the war in America, or proposing
the recognition of the Southern States. Since that statement
was made to the house it had come to his knowledge,
through the hon. member for Bradford, that just before the
meeting of the other house, Baron Gras, the ambassador of
the Emperor of France waited on his noble friend Earl
Russell, and informed him that it had come to his know-
ledge that reports were in circulation of some such
proposals having been made, and he stated to the
sob le earl that be bad not been instructed to make any
such communication to her Majesty's government. (Hear.)
Ile did not doubt the veracity of the boo. and learned
member for Sheffield, but he could not reconcile the state-
meat he made with the corcmunication which bud been
made to his noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs.

Mr. NEW DEG 9TE snid the people of this country would
not be satisfied if the house approved of a motion which had
beep placed on thejournals of the house at the instance of •
foreign potentate ; and the passing of it under the circum-
stances in which itweeproposed wonidgivesuch offence Coate
people of America that the object it bad in view would be
defeated. (Hear, hear.) The object of the motion of the
hon. member for Sheffield appeared to be the termination of
the war by peaceful negotiation, but the speech with which
he introduced it was calculated to defeat that object, and
therefore, anxious us he was to me the war ter-
min►ted, he should oppose the motion. (Hear, hear )
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then
put and carried.
Lord R. MONTAGU inquired whether the government
would fix a day for the resuming of the debate.
Sir G. GREY said that the discussion of the motion could
probably be resumed on Monday next.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he hoped the house would come to a
division on Thursday next. The consideration of the mo-
tion could be proceeded with on the motion for going into
committee of supply on that evening.
The house then proceeded to the orders of the day.
POISONING PREVENTION BILL.

Lord RAYNBAII moved heseontia reodiugof tbio bilL.

Sir G. GREY objected to the bill, and thotifht the noble
lord could not entertain any hope of push g it in its present
shape. He moved that it be read a second time that d►y
three months, and the amendment was carried without •
division.

CASUAL POOR (METROPOLIS) BILL.
After a abort discussion the waved reading of this bill
was postponed to Wednesday, Bth July.

110 WTH HARBOUR BILL.
This bill maned s bind airs aad pans&
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE (ST. MARY MAGDALEN
HOSPITAL) BILL.
This bill aras mad a third dam aad pars& 6
REMOVAL OF IRISH POOR.

This bill tat read a thud iia;LxTp;seed.
PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill yam read a maned time.
SAVINGS BANKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill wam read a third time and pawed.
COURTS OF COMMISSION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time sod pared.
The house adlottroed at tea minutia pest two o'clock.