The Express.
London, England, 1862-07-29 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY

also more were, owing to the impoverished conditioa of
many of the ratepayer. He objected to the principle of
the parishes borrowiog money.
Mr. HENLEY hoped that now the amendment was
withdrawn no further alteration would be found necessary
in the clause. The only doubt he had was as to how the
question of adjoining parishes aid LWOW earaisit ia to aid
could be settled, so as to relieve the suffering partakes soon
enough to afford them substantial relief. Of course these
poor would require maid every Saturday night.
Mir. people
said that the guardians Gond at any time
make an order upon their treasurers.
Mr. HENLEY was happy to hear that the traumas of
poor law boards in Lancashire were no wealthy as to have
such ample funds at their disposal

Mr. COBDEN thought that this matter we. so important I,
that the change ought not to be adopted until the districts
themselves had had an opportunity of expressing their views.
If the rule were that when poor rates rose to two-thirds
above their avenge, ralid should be afforded, that would
afford a very accessible mode of relief. But be understood
it was now propoisd to establish one single oast iron Me,
that until the rake reached an uniform standard of Is., no
succour was to be had. If that were so, he strongl7 oh.
jected to such a proposaL Ha would offer an illustration in the
borough of Rochdale. In 1861 the borough rate of that union
was Is. in the pound. In the present year, 1862.3, it was
estimated that it would be la. 81d. Now Rochdale union
could receive no amistanee till that rats bad reached Is. 3d.
Observe what • muses Rooltdals would have to go through
before it could receive any relief at all. He bad received a
commiwication from the chairman of the Relief Committee,
stating that within a mile radium from the centre
of the town there were 85 maths all engaged in
the cotton trade ; 36 of these were closed now;
from 14 to 16 would be closed in • week
or 10 days ; and the remainder were not avenging
ahoy, two days • week. In another mouth he believed out
of the whole 85 at lent 60 would have stopped. Now he
(Mr. Cobden) did not blame any one for thews evils. He
believed they were not to be remedied or prevailed ; but he
believed they might be mitigated. Any attempt to obtain
the cotton by force would only be attended by an aggrava-
tion of evils. He asked, then, why the practical and saga-
cious men of Rochdale should not be permitted
to meet their desperate exigencies in the way
they thought best, by borrowing money on their rates.
He regretted that this dheusion had been thrust on to the
en iof the session. (Hest, hear.) But it would be better
that hon. members should stay longer at their poets than
that they should attempt any premature decision, for in
that ease they would infallibly be called together in No-
vember.

Mr. NEWDEGATE said be was glad to be able, in this
%stance at least, to express his most perfect concurrence in
the views of his hoc. friend. By enabling parishes to borrow
for themselves, they would be calling in the sasistance of
local knowledge and ability.
Mr. GILPIN said be did not know to what conclusion
his right boo. friend (Mr. Villiers) would corns as to the
postponement of this question, but be certainly thought it
was a novel proposition that they should burden the rats-
payers of twenty years hence for bread which was cos-
, fumed by ratepayen of the present day. It was further a
maxim that borrowed money was not so carefully spent as
any other. He must plead not guilty to the charge which
had been brought against him by his hoc, friend of the in-
difference and harshness of the Poor Jam Board. The law
he believed to be a humane law, and it was the desire of
the authorities to carry it out humanely. He was quite
sure the authorities of the Poor Law Board had every dispo-
sition to combine with the observance of the law a true and
genuine liberslity. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY thought nothing would be gained by
CastCuelr certainly supportmim th of tracl:6—use ..itsFzropiown part
After a few woods from Mr. BARROW,
Lord PALMEItSTON appealed to the committee to allow
this clause to be struck out, in order to make way for the
succeeding clauses. When his right boo. friend brought
up the new elates boo. gentlemen would have an opportu-
nity of proposing any amendment they might think fit.
The amendment was withdrawn.

Clause 1 was then expunged.
Clause 2 was agreed to.
Clause 3 was struck out. and clauses up to and including
clause 9 wens agreed to, after some verbal amendments.
A new clause in place of clause 1, was then brought up
and agreed to.
A new clause in the place of clauses 3 and 4 wee also
brought op end read a second time.
Mr. AYRTON moved the omission of words, with the
view of giving the guardians power to borrow money not
exceeding half the amount of the rateable value of the
union and apply it ,to the relief of the distrait' under the
direction of the Poor law Board. He contended
that the existing distress kad been caused by
no act of those who suffered it, but had
rather been ceased by the act of the nation, in tacitly
allowing a cessation of the commercial intercourse between
the two conntriee. He condemned the provision in the bill
which gave the Poor Law Board the power of authorising the
imposition of rates, and said it was a power sought by the
government to enable them to avoid a session of parliament
in November.

Lord It. CECIL agreed with the hon. member as to the
desirability of the boards of guardians having power to raise
money on the security of the rates, but differed with him as
to the arguments with which he enforced his view. It was
simply this, that bemuse the country had not
interfered in the war in America, therefore, the whole nation
ought to meet the claims which the distress in Lancashire
had caused. But that was an argument founded on suicidal
inciples. Where WY it to stop? Suppose, instead of •
blockade, there bad been • prohibitory tariff, that would
have produced theism. results in Lancashire ; but did be
mean that we should in that case interfere with our fiesta
in a matter connected with the financial arrangements of
another country! The hon. member also said the manufac-
turers were not answerable for that which bad come
unforeseen ; no doubt that was true, but yet to • certain
extent they were blameable. A war between this country
and the United States would have produced precisely the
mune effect ; and the manufacturers of Lancashire were
bound to look forward to such a contingency. Therefore it
was not true to say that the distress was purely accidental,
and that the manufacturers had nothing to do with it. The
hon. member also talked about the government proposition
being made in order to avoid • November session,
but that was a suggestion degrading to the house.
He believed that the pnnciple of the bill was just, because
it provided that Lancashire, which bad primarily benefitted
by the cotton trade. ought to contribute to the mitigation
of the distress which had come upon it.
After a few words from Mr. J. C. &water,
Mr. COBDEN said the noble lord imputed some blame to
the cotton manufacturers because they had not taken
precautions to get a supply of cotton from some
other source. But would any man in his senses
my that the same labour, capital, and skill
which had been applied to the manufacture of cotton
in Lancashire should at the same time be applied to the
growth of cotton in America or elsewhere. No one pretended
that the same capital and skill should be applied to both pur-
suits. When this country had produced men of ingenious
turn of mind who had devoted themselves to the develop-
ment of machinery and the working of it, and the most ener-
getic capitalists, who carried on the trade in competition
with the whole world, be thought that our spinners
and manufacturers had performed their duty,
and done their best to stimulate the growth of *Moe.
He understood the noble lord to say that Lancashire had
taken no part in trying to devise means by which cotton
might be procured. Now, he maintained that as • county
Lancashire had done all that it could to promote the growth
of cotton in India. All that the manufacturers could do
was to memorial*e the government to remove the obstacles
to the growth of cotton in India, to make roads, and to im-
prove the tenure of land. Did the noble lord know that Lan-
cashire bad dime all this! He remembered that long ago
as 1850 his honourable friend the member for Birming-
ham moved in that house for • commission
to be sent out to India, and the late Sir Robert Peel and Sir
James Graham highly complimented him on the speech he
made in bringing forward that motion. After that his hon.
friend moved for • committee of inquiry. Then the
Chamber of Commerce in Manchester had constantly dis-
cussed the subject. Twice they had sent commissioners to
India, and of late years there had not been • governor-
general or • financial minister sent to India but they bad
invited him to Manchester or sent deputations
to him to London to impress upon him the neces-
sity of doing what he could to promote the growth
of cotton in India, until there was an outcry against the
people of Manchester that they viewed India as • cotton
farm, and he confessed that he felt almost inclined to share
that sentiment. After all this how the people of Manches-
ter could be blamed he could not understand. They had
not a majority in the cabinet, they had no cos to represent
them at the Board of Control, and all that they could do
they bad done in memorialising the government to improve
the means by which cotton could be brought to the
sea coast instead of being brought, es at present,
on the backs of bullocks. On this matter they bad heard
enough. There was no one to blame that he knew of. It
was a calamity that had fallen upon them, and all that they
bad to do was to address themselves to a remedy for the
present distress.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY opposed the amendment. ft
appeared to him that the borrowing principle was iodispeo-
sable and ought to be persevered in.
Mr. PULLER said be was afraid that the particular pro-
position of the hoe. member for the Tower Hamlet's would
not meet the difficulty, because it would only come into
operation when the aggregate expenditure of the union
amounted to ss. in the pound, whereas in some towns it
might be much worse than that. In Stockport it appeared
that already only 40 per cent. were left in a condition in
which they could pay rates, and it was not improbable that
in that parish the very small number that would soon be
left able to pay rates might be called upon to pay 145., or
even more in the pound.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said some hon. members seemed to
have an idea that if the war in America were settled ea_
morrow the distress in Lancashire would at once cease. But
he could not share that opinion. We had been dependent'
on America for 85 per cent. of the cotton we used.
There remained in America some three or four millions of
bales. but there was none elsewhere in the world. There-
fore if there were • crop raised there would be a scramble
for it, not only by England. but by France and qermany,
sad by America ; for at this moment cotton was worth
• lb. is New Turk which wee only worth Is. M. is Engles&
But the estimate that he had was that in Amieries sot more
than one fourth el the wog quantity bad hew sown.
Where ware we to get our supplies? India was our only
resource. And what was the state of things is India?
Last year we reosived 1.000,000 balsa. lii right bcffi.

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