The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY REINING, JULY 7,185 L

ellicdoewee...mid wen gins../ le::: set ea.—
bee a Air proihe at -do dentist of . That was ay
2`4The right-hen gaitkosen me whether I have
.1 that opinkm. I tare net slanged that opinion.
I ales ski say that in making these proposition.,
the Austrian govermleimt &eased Mat they were ready to
mike them an eitkr.atet—tbat is to My, that they were
ready to send an ultimatum te St. Petersburg, either that
Russia should consent to the plan of counterpoise which I
lave mentioned, or that she should gement to limit her
naval force in the Black Sato the number existing at the
time that this casco/Mon wee accepted—that is to say, sup-
posing that Russia had no more than me sail of the line left,
that she should consent to the provision made in the treaty
with all the powers, that she should not increase her force
b.youd that number. Certainly it appeared to me, having
reed the Russian minister'. declaration over and
ova again, that he could not assent to say limi-
tation by Russia; that that proposal would be at once
rejected-b y Russia. With regard to the other, it was cer-
tainly denbtfel; but es it did not contain the proposition
to which Russia had mat objected, she might hen:grad
to that proposal. If she had refused both prepositions the
Austrian minister was to have orders to leave St. Peters-
burg in eight days, the military convention with F was
' to be signed, and the Austrian armies were to be placed in
each a position that they could commence war at any
moment. Then was not the promise that she would
make ea immediate declaration of war but it was
to be declared a came The Austrian
ter said it would bring on war, and I em
r bound to say, considering the character of*. Austrian go-
vereatent, that unless Ramie had conceded the point at the
last moment it would have led to a war between Austria and
I Russia. Well, sir, I stated to Count Buol—and, as I have
said in this house, there may be some things in which my
I recollection might somewhat differ from Count Buol—but
r I have no hesitation in saying that this eircular contains a
. very accurate account of what I did at Vienna—l ended to
r Count Buol that I had no instructions to agree to sash
terms, and that my instructions rather led me to steppes.
I that such terms would not be ascepted, but
I se my own opinion was that they might be accepted,
I mild assure him that be might convey his eimerance to
, the Emperor of Austria that I would lay the ease before the
t cebinet of this country, and would use my best endeavour to
r put thoese propositions forward, and that I might hope for
. their acceptance. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, that promise I
r certainly performed. I stated to my government, is every
I AMA the propositions of which I was the bearer. I said I
I had sot the written propositions, but that Raley were NW
Ceded to form a basis of agreement, no doubt the Arafat
I minister at this court would furnish them with all the de-
tails. 1 must saythat thou propositions were deliberately eon.
eidend ; everything that I said,l must say,bad its due weight,
I and was fairly placed is opposition to the ditadventsgee
of sash a peen. The government came to the ocusdalem
that It was not • safe peace and that they could not Mies-
mend its adoption. (Rear, bear.) The right hon. gene►
aid aye that he has heard from my right bon. friend the
member for Carlisle that the French government were dis-
t posed to accept them, but that they were induced by the
• government of this country to refuse them. M. Brooms. de
Limp undoubtedly represent• d to 'the Emperor the advert-
' leSee of the terms I have stated ; but the Emperor did net
r his advice, and it was before be could have known
NM desYea of the English government that he resolved on
hie cat to refuse the propositions of Austria es net
learegae conditions on Russia which would be a
; walleient foundation for a durable pew. There-
, bee the two governments came to the decision that
, the: proposals of Austria should be refused. The
1 Austrian government thereupon declared—l am not going to
, enter into their cue, as to how far ills • good case or not;
I have stated it as far as I am able, and the house can judge
for itself—the Austrian government declared that they
erne reedy to carry into effect the four points, that they
did not think the third point admitted only of ;one solution,
that they were of opinion the solution they had suggested
to the two governments of France and Great Britain was a
, sufficient security, that they bad been ready to propose it to
Russia, but as it w.s negatived by the two allied govern.
merits they should no longer promote It; but in that ems
they did not consider themselves bound oy the termed the
treaty of the tad of December to go to war with Rada
Sir, I believe in strictness those terms admit the cesstrem
tion that they were bound to go to war ; but the house will
remember that when that treaty was first mentioned in
this house I rather opposed the general view that Austria
wee at once bound to go to war with Rasta under that treaty.
I think the two governments might cell upon Austria to
perform the treaty ; but I think that if eves this was not a
good cease or a sufficient cause, there is at least muck to be
said in favour of the proposition they were ready
to make as an ultimatum. (Hear, hear.) Now sir the
right hon. gentleman asks a question personal to tripoli un-
doubtedly—but one which be is fairly entitled to ask, and
which I consider lam bound to answer. He asks me, how,
if I have held then, opinions and if I have not changed
them, I can remain in office with do present administra-
tion. (Hear, bear.) Now, sir, I think that if I had left
office upon the decision which I mentioned to her Majesty's
government, I should not have been acting in consistency
with that which I have repeatedly declared and which I
have made the guide of my conduct; namely, that in the
last resort and when it came to that great ques-
tion of whether the proposals before us should be
received ot not, it was for the government and
sot for a plenipotentiary to decide that question ;
neither was it for • plenipotentiary, neither was
it for me, having been employed in these negotiations, and
hoviag been a member of the government. But if I bed
thought thq, having held a certain opinion, and being
evenuled in a question of such great importance, it was
my duty to wider my resignation Pr her Majesty, I must
say that I think the circumstances of the time would have
forbidden me to have done so. I must now refer to that
which has taken place since the commencement of this
session, and which, I think, must have impressed every one
that takes part in public affairs, with very grave reflections.
There have been several changes since the commencement
of the session. I myself resigned my office at the very be.
ginning, on the ground that we could not resist the appoint-
ment of a committee of inquiry. A vote of this house in-
duced Lord Aberdeen and his colleagues generally to
resign their offices a few days after. Lord Derby was called
to attend upon her Majesty, but he thought, and with very
sound judgment, that, urine he obtained the mitten°, of
some of Lord Aberdeen's colleagues—my noble friend, and
the right honourable gentleman the member for the ljai-
'salty of Oxford—he could not obey her Majesty's
command and form a government which promised any sta-
bility. I myself was unable to form a government when
the task was offered to me. My noble friend obtained the
assistance of some of the friends of Lord Aberdeen and
formed a cabinet ; but only a few days after they milord
their offices on a ground the very opposite from that an
which the decision to which I came was founded, namely,
on the ground that a committee was appointed to inquire
Into the state if the army in the Crimea. It cannot be die
sled that these circumstances have given an appearance of
instability to our councils, an appearance of instability
which ought above all things to be avoided. But men
than that. It was impossible for me not to perceive, though
at a distance, the tendency that there was to cry down ell
authority and to distrust all persons in whom the adminis-
tration might be placed. If there was one man whom the
country thought more than another ought to be entrusted
with the supreme plea in the councils of the sovereign it
was my noble friend who is now the First Lord of the
Treasury. (Hear, hear.) But no sooner had that
appointment taken place than—without any reams,
as it seemed to me, but that he held e
as of authority in her Majesty's councils—
be become the object of the meat violent attacks, and of a
very general endeavour to run down his administration and
te deprive him of power. (Hear, hear.) This, sir, was set
the effect of any extreme violence of party feeling—fro
from it. But it did show a tendency in the public mend to
run down all authority, and to distrust all persons who
might be the depositories of power—a tendency be
go from one change to another, from a restless denim
for sanethieg, people did not know what. (How
hear) Now, sir. I did conceive that in thei
state of the public mind, whatever might be my
sentiments as to the great question pending—and a very
great question it was—it was my duty t. give ay support to
my noble friend ; for lam sure that if I had then leftoMee,
though I might have prousieed him my support, it would
have increased that instability to which I have made allu-
sion. It would have been considered as &symptom and as a
precursor of other changes; and, therefore, I believed that
it was my duty to lay the propositions before the cabinet of
my noble friend, and to leave them to consider them as well
as they were able and to make the beet decision they could.
I believed, air, that the minority should yield to the
majority—if there are majorities and minorities is
the cabinet —and that an individual should make
his 'intimate low to those of the cabinet is
general, end should leave it to this house to say
whether they were fitted to preside over the public affairs.
I believe that my noble friend and those who act with Ma
are as well qualified to make thole changes in our adminis-
trative system, and those reforms which the conduct of
public affairs may require, ea any set of men that her Ma-
jesty might call to her council. (Hear, hear.) I believe
that after a time that persuasion will be fixed in the public
mind. I believe that it would be a very great misfortune if
a change were to take place, unless it were a total change
to men opposed to her Majesty'. govereasot ; and if the
house should think that those men would be better adoinis-
triton than her Majesty's present advisee, then I think
that every support should be given to them. (Hear, hear.)
Now, eft, I will not say that these affebe—important es
the ere, Waiving es they de sell great eseecquseees both
to tlo prides el ZeOrd is the world sad to her internal
institutions—have net eat SO mash scrieve reflection ; bet
I have made the best decision I could. It may he said by
many that I have betrayed the interests of the country. It
may he right that I ought to have persisted to the end, emi
that I ought to have resigned when my opinion wee ear-
ruled. On those ground. I may be liable to censure, and
I hays certainly no moon to emaciate ; all that I can say
Is that I have made a fair statement of my opinions and my
motives, and 1 leave the been to Amide upon then.
(Hear, bear.)
Mr. COBDEN bed howl assay speeches in that hone*
which bad seleeiched mid bed plena Yes ; but he mu*
unfeignedly dears that he had Dew hued anything that
bad so smelt aelesitited er is ereskerined him es what hal
just Mao i.e. the mile lad. The Hesse of Cassese wee
now withist• math, he seppeesd, of Its se . Wee it
team the esicalcy fa the heads of this milrtry, ON
Ibis messedeir_ war p with so avowed e:4= Ile wield Jaisitely rather see the party from
tbe Vim aide eta use. the hope end take the
weelhanweir. (ahem Etesethesprelillee.) 115=1'
ON IPNIM else see WSW Osage d peesetitspg p

Ihmestgiorty la the country. He looked beak with regret
at the vete whisk be gave to pnt an end to Lord De's
government ; ha believed that bad cost this oonatry a
knadred millions of mosey, sad 110,030 good lives. (tuck
cheering from the Opposition party.) Tat so one be
frightened, thee, by the prospect of a change of ministry ;
an wss better than driftieg on though the war with-
oat an t. And would any on. pretend to solve the
mystery of what this war was carried on for ? Was it to
take Sebastopol ? Then we must minuted Sebastopol with
260,000 nes, and starve it oat, and then we might take it.
Or was it iatended to winter spin in the Crimea, for that
was now the talk is the camp ? We had had an opportunity
of making peace, and had so employed it that we were
separated now from all Europe, and bad only Frappe with
as in continuing the wet. What were we then to do ? He
I entreated the house toe:pram their honest convictions upon
this moot important gaieties.
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I can very easily understand
- -

that the hon. member for the West Riding, having views of
his own, and wishing to form • party that should place
itself in a position to administer the affairs of the country—
and I do not blame him for it, nor say it as a reproach—
that he, and those who hold such views, should do all which
they peeeibly can to realise an assertion which 1 utterly
deny to be founded in tact, namely, that other public men
in this country have lost the confidence of the nation. It is
very natural for the hon. member to say then aro no men
in this country to whom the nation would look up, sad
around whom it would rally, at a period when it may be
memory foe the public weal that there should be perm=
in whom the coulee, would be disposed to place cow&
duce. Sir, I deny that such is the fut. Within*
setting aside all party feelings, i say that, NI
both sides of this house, there are men in whim
the country would feel confidence, and ummil
whom the people would rally, at such 11100111111 OS
those which the hon. gentleman describes. At least, la me
respect it is true; I may say, without any disrespect to the
hon. gentleman and those amongst whom he is sitting, that
they are the last men in the country, in whom the emeeley
would be disposed, under any circumstance', to plass lb
confidence. (A laugh.) But I think that system of mdse.
vouring to decry every man in a public station, and reps.'
sent every man in public life as animated by feelings awl
opinions that are not honourable to him, and that are M.
consistent with hie duty, is rendering very bad service to
the country ; and I think it is no honour to those by when
such a system is pursued. (Cheers.) And this lam certain
of ; I have such confidence in the good sense and good
feeling of the people of England, that I am firmly persuaded
three political arts, instead of tending to advance the par-
pausal those who practise them, moil upon their authors;
and that instead of doing the damage that is Lauded
to those whom they propose to ruin, on the esatsesy,I
they lower in public opinion the character of them MM
resort to what I must call such unworthy means of further.
tog their political purposes. (Cheers.) Now the km.
gentleman has lavished a good deal of this upon my
noble friend, and most unworthily and most undeservedly.
My noble friend has pursued a course which I think was
eminently becoming a person placed in the situation in
, which he we. The hon. gentleman taunts my noble friend
by implication with having been actuated by an unworthy
desire of retaining political power and place. Why, does
not the recent conduct of my noble friend acquit him at
once of any such imputation? Why, surely the hon.
gentleman cannot forget that my noble friend voluntarily
resigned office, and went to that bench where the hon.
' gentleman says he should have wished him to be.
(Laughter.) And did not my noble friend show by that,
that when he considered his public duty was incompatible
with the temptations of office, he was ready at once to quit
Mice, and place himself in a position which he thought
would be consistent with the opinions which he
might entertain? Sir, my noble friend went as plenipo-
tentiary to Vienna; he returned in the double capacity
ofplenipotentisry and a member of her Majesty's cabinet.
He entertained opinions, which he has stated, as to the pro-
posal which Austria thought she might make with success
to the government of Rusts. As a plenipotentiary, he was
perfectly right to propose that to his government, as M.
Drouyn de riluys was justified in proposing
it toeke go-
comment of France. But neither o them could undertake
to do more than that; only to lay before their respective
governments the ideas which the Austrian government en-
tertained; but these two governments must necessarily
have been left masters of their decision on a question of such
vast and paramount importance. My noble friend, as a
member of a government, was perfectly entitled to recom-
mend a particular measure to his colleagues; and it is en-
tirely a novel proposition to say that every member of a
government should expect that a proposal which he thinks
one worthy of acceptance must either be aeeepted by the go-
cerement of which he is a member or that he must retire from
the government. Why, if that were to be the ruling
principle of cabinets, no cabinet could hold together
for any term, because twelve or fourteen men, per.ectly
united on general principles, must necessarily, upon occa-
sion, differ in opinion as to particular measures ; and the
only way in which parties can be kept together, or govern-
ments act harmoniously, is that, by an interchange of
opinions, they should come at last to some final decision ;
them on one side or the other giving up their particular
opinion, upon a particular question, for the purpose of com-
mon action on great and general principles. The bon. gen-
tleman taunts my noble friend with having, since he re-
turned hero, made a speech in which he pointed out the
ambitious program of Rustic, and the dangers that would
arise to Europe from its continuance ; and he seemed to
thick then was something inconsistent between that speech
and the opinions my noble friend entertained as to a parti-
cular project of arrangement. Why, nothing can be more
consistent. There was nothing at variance in one or the
other. He might well think a particular arrangement was
deserving of the consideration of the government, but he
was not, upon that account, the leas impressed with the
dangers to Europe of that system of ambitious aggregates,
whieh had characterised the policy of Russia ; and he was
entitled, when the question name to be discussed in this
house, to state again those opinions which he had often
expressed here. The governments of France and England,
each for reasons of its own, thought that the proposal of
Austria was not one which Lunder the circumstances, it was
advisable to entertain. The question was mat anxiously
and earnestly considered. The decision was net taken in a
hasty manner, or upon light grounds. We thought the pro-
posal did not hold out to us that future security and
reality of peace which we thought ourselves bound to ob-
tain after such great exertions and sacrifices as we bad made ;
and upon that account the two governments, each equally
upon its own reflections, determined that the proposal was
one which they could not authorise Austria to make in their
names to Ruses. We thought that to leave the Russian
fleet in the Black Sea, with no definite obligation, with no
other security than that each of us might when called upon
by the Rattan send a force equal to half the amount
of the Russian, might lead, and probably would, to the
accumulation of a vast maritime fore* in the Black Sea,
which, threatening the security of Constantinople, end
capable at any moment of carrying a large lied force to the
shone of Turkel, would, so far from establishing a state of
security and peace. give to the relations between Turkey
and the Western Powers on the one band, and Russia on
the other, the ohmmeter of an armed truce, lasteed of a secure
and unsuspecting puce. The hon. gentleman thinks, how-
ever, that we have carried on the war without knowing the
purpose for which it is conducted. He says that no man in
the country knows what we an fighting for ; and the right
hon. ?sideman the member for Manchester says the same.
Now I will undertake to say there is scarcely a peasant in
the country who needs an explanation, and does not under-
stand what it is the war is now carried on for. He wishes
to know, sot what the object is, for which the war is to be
carried on, but the method in which it is to be carried on—
whether Sebastopol is to be invested, and what the army is
do—whether it is to winter in the Crimea, and what are our
plans of operation. Surely, these are not questions upon I
which he expects the government to give him an answer ?
The object of the war is to repress the aggressions of
Russia, and it will be carried on until that is accomplished.
According to the hon. gentleman it would seem that nothing
has occurred except danger and digester. If any man will
compete the condition in which Russia was when this war
began with the position in which she now is—if he will
compare the advantageous position in which Russia then
stood with the position which she now oorapies—l think
any fair and candid man will confess that great advantages
have been obtained by us, and that Russia is by no
either politically, diplomatically, or in a military andatil*
respect, in the situation in which she was when this war was
first undertaken. (Hear, hoer.) In the Beide, we have
blocked up her fleets now during two summers. The
fortress of Bonsareund, which threatened to beams another
Cronstadt, has been entirely destroyed; and Rune has not
ventured to re-occupy that position. The right hon.
g!_ntlemas says we boosted that we would take Cronstadt.
We did nothing of the kind. No man who knew anything
of the strength of that fortress seer held out any
expectation that our fleet was going to destroy it. In the
Principalities the Bradenton.' have been expelled. They
have been expelled, as was very properly stated, set.by the
action of British or French troops, though their pmesees at
Verna contributed in some degree to their retirement •, but
no doubt it was the action of Austria that mandyllealellesied
to the retreat of those troops. Was it nothing, Melt, the*
Austria was persuaded to take that attitude, and ne Om le
take part with England and France, that by her
ment with Turkey and her military position she gained
Turkey and the allies the total evacuation of the Principa-
lities ? I say, that is a proof that by diplomacy, as well as by
arm', great progress has been mad* in repressing the am-
bition of Russia. Then the right hon. undue= say iftit
the war was undertaken to restore satinet nationalities. We
never talked of any sash thing.
Mr. GIBSON—I beg the noble lord's pardon. I beard
him distinetly say, in reference to the he was put.
stselviip, There is Poland : the mill of Poland is a
menses to Germany." Mar, hear.)
Lord ALMERSTON—Nstandblumenese o Mahe I did my that the
treaties ef Poised a to Gomm; bat
' did !ulsse say that Baikal aadTaeoes were gabs teamed
the Swim how Pekoe ? I easewpasied that by a asap
Elbsl It was the Osman pewees ales,Anglia awl
tl bg whoa that mill= mid be eland, and Mind
from *slide& et Xenia. ON I *tote anti

whe they, were called upon to take the Bald again!
Russia, that was the danger from which they would ender
your to protest themselves for the future. As to the inde-
pendence of Hungary, when did the right hon. gentleman
ever hear me say that eau of the *hints of the war was to
separate Hungary from Austria? Every word I ever
uttered of Hungary was in a contrary sense. I stated that
I should consider It a calamity to Europe if the separation
of Hungary were to demolish that Austrian empire the
existence of which in the centre of Europe I consider of
great importance to the general interests and welfare of
the European community. I have my opinions, we
doubt, as ti the justice of particular questions which
some years past were raised between Hungary and the go-
vernment of Austria ; but I never for an instant stated, at
any time, that I thought the separation of Hungary from
Austria would be conducive to the general welfare of
Europe. Certainly nothicg ever dropped from me, or tram
any member of her Majesty's government, which tended, fa
the slightest degree, to warrant the assertion of the right
bon. gentleman that the independence of Hungary was one
of the objects of the war against Russia. Then, sir, in the
Black Sea how do we stand? The fleet of Russia has been
one-half destroyed by her own bands, and the rest has been
cooped up ; and whenever Sebastopol shall yield to the
efforts of our armies, will no doubt fall into the power of the
allies. The Sea of Athff, which was the great source of
supply to the Russian army in the Crimea, has, by the
gallantry and enterprise of the British and Preach military
and naval forces, now been altogether closed as a source of
Radon supply; and the Russian forces in the
Crimea ate thereby placed in very great difficulties, both as
to the munitions of war, and the supply of provisions. There-
fore, I say the position is this, whereas, when the war
began, Ramie was actually invading the territory of ens
ally, now, on the contrary, the temtory of our ally has
been evacuated, and we occupy an important position'
within the territory of Russia. The hon. gentleman who
spoke last says—Can you expect with 30,000 men to con-
quer the Crimea? Instead of 30,000 men, it so happens
that there are 180,000 men of the allies in the Crimea at the
present moment. Of course, the events of the future are
beyond our control or the prescience of man ; but there is
every reason to hope that before any great length of time
has elapsed we shall find ourselves successful in the opera-
tions which we are there carrying on. Some gentlemen, I
know, contend that it was unwise for the government to
send an expedition to the Crimea at all. I totally differ
from the opinion thus expreseed. (Hear.) To send an army
to enter the Russian territories at the south, or to enter Bee-
sushi', and to wander amid those vast forests which stretch
up towards Warsaw, would, I admit, have been a military
folly. The object was to strike at the centre of Hessian power in
the Black Sea ; that point was Sebastopol and the Crimea ; and
though the difficulties we have encountered in that under-
taking have proved greater than we imagined when we first
commenced—whatever those difficulties have been. I am
of the satne opinion now that I was when the expedition
was first planned and ordered—that that was the point
which was to be struck at—that it was in the Crimea and at
Sebastopol that the preponderance of Russia could be most
effectually tut an end to—and that, whatever exertions
might be required for the accomplishment of the purpose
, it was that pima* that ought to be aimed at, and on that
, spot that the great efforts of the British and French forces
required to be made. The hon. gentleman says he thinks
' it high time that the government should be placed in other
' hands—that he regrets extremely the vote he gave by which
the gentlemen opposite were placed on the benches which
they now occupy ; and I am to infer that when next a
vote is proposed which shall have for its tendency to remove
them to this side of the house and place us on that, that the
hon. member will he found voting on the side
of those who will be disposed to frame a resolution
having,_ that tendency. We shall have the members
of the Peace Society, therefore, voting to place in power a
set of gentlemen who, as far as we can judge from the lan-
guage they have held in this house, are as determined to
carry on the war with vigour and energy as those who now
occupy the seats on which we sit. How far the hon. gentle-
man and thine who act with him may think that by fre-
quent changes of the government they may at last so far
' shake the confidence of the public is those who have here-
' tofore conducted the affairs of the country, that, in despair,
; the people will turn to them, I of coune am not able to say
—(a laugh)—but I think they will find that that speculation
will not answer, and that whether they put in office gentle-
men on the other side, or retain in office those who now
hold it, they will find that the manly and determined spirit
of the country is not to be broken down by the speeches
• which they may make either here or elsewhere. They will
' find that the country will support no government except a
government that will carry on the war with a full determi-
nation to conduct it to a successful issue, and that 'the
country will not submit for a single week to a go-
vernment founded upon the principles which are advocated
by the hon. member for the West Riding and those who
concur with him. I have only farther to say that I am con-
vinced no blame attaches to my noble friend for the part
' which he has taken in these transactions ; and with regard
t to the conduct of the government, in (declining the proposi-
, tine made by Austria, or in conducting the operations of the
war, I am convinced that we have only been following that
which is the decided and determined will of the people of
this country. And I entertain the most confident expecta-
tion notwithstanding all the proofs of failure and dis-
aster which come to us from time to time from the gentle-
men on those benches, that, by the help of Providence and
the justice of our those, we shall lead this country to a suc-
cessful issue ; and then we shall perhaps find that the has.
gentlemen will confess themselves as much out in their cal-
culations now as the hon. member for the West Riding must
admit himself to have been when he told us, with an air of
triumphant exultation, that he would crumple up the
empire of Russia like a sheet of paper. (Chew.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—Sir, it appears to me that there are
two very separate matters before the hewn at present. One
is the character of the noble lord the member for London ;
the other is the wisdom or folly of the present war. Upon
the first point I agree with the hon. member foe the West
Riding and the right hon. opmber for Manchester; on
the second, I agree with the noble lord at the head of the
government. (Hear, hear.) I will endeavour to treat these
two questions quite distinctly. The noble lord at the head
of the government says that in a government composed as a
government i n this country is, of many persons agreeing in
general principles, and differing, as men must differ, upon
separate and in.lividual questions, there must necessarily be
*compromise of opinion. On that point I agree with the
noble lord. The only difficulty is to know to whet extent
that compromise may go. (Hear, hear.) I think the noble
lord the member for London has shown that his view of this
compromise is one wholly inconsistent with perfect honesty
in public men. I will at once address myself to the con-
duct of the noble lord. He joined Lord Aberdeen's admi-
nistration. War was declared by that administration.
War was carried on by that administration, uatil parlia-
ment met, at the beginning of this year. Daring the whole
of that time that cabinet had the support of the antis nity
of the noble lord. The public knew nothing of dissen.
sions. The authority of the noble lord was given to every
particle of conduct on the part of the admieistration. When
parliament met I proposed to move a resolution in this
house. Then, and not till then, the noble lord took fright.
He left his colleagues in the lurch. (Hear, hear.) It then
came out that there had been dimension for a long time in
that cabinet. And dissension upon what ? Upon matters
of minor import—upon trivial matters, on which men really
agreeing on great principles might and must differ if go-
Terminals are to be constitutionally carried on in this coun-
try ? No, not at all ; but upon the vital matter of the war
itself. (Hear, hear.) And when I proposed that motioa
the noble lord lett his c Mosques, saying that he could not
resist the resolution I proposed, because he differed with
his colleagues upon the conduct of that war. Upon what
so vital could he have differed as that ? (Hear,
hear.) Should he not, as a man having at
heart the character of public men—having at heart the
welfare of his country—ought be not, months before, so to
have declared the opinion which he held; and ought he
not then, and long before, to have deserted that cabinet to
which he belonged? (Hear, hear.) But he did no such
thing. He allowed the army to dwindle down into nothing;
he allowed sufferings unheard-of to be the lot and portion of
that army ; and he allowed that, knowing as he did that
the conduct of the war was unworthy of this country—that
it Ins in bands unfit to conduct it; and be stood there, and
saw melting away nuder every species of disaster, a great
and gallant army sent from those shores. (Hear.) That is
the first charge which I lay to the door of the noble lord ;
and I accuse him here, in the face of the Commons of Eng-
land, of a dereliction of duty as a public man. (Hear,
hear.) What is the next? Having left that cabinet, having
seen the struggles to form another, he did not join that
other, but he accepted an office as plenipotentiary to Vienna.
When he got there he found four points agreed upon. Upon
the third point great difference of opinion took place between
Russia and the allied powers—Austria at last proposing a
plan which she supposed contained the elements of peace.
The noble lord approved that plan, and confidently stated
to Count Buol that when he came home be would press it
upon the government of her Majesty, and with his autho-
rity endeavour to carry it. He came home. He came
home in the doable capacity of plenipotentiary and minister
of the crown. In this house those conferences were dis-
cussed; and the very point upon which the eonferenties
went off came before this house. Different opinions were
expressed; but I ask this house if anybody ever learned
from the noble lord himself the real state of the conferences
which he had left at Vienna? (Hear.) Only to-aight'has
the noble lord confessed what teeny happened. Bat
after a long discussion upon that matter, we went to a divi-
sion upon the third point; and the noble lewd led this boom
to assume that he agreed fully with his colleggees apes that
Cint. At the time that he so allowed the house to believe
had in his own mind a totally different opinion—(hear)—
and he had conveyed that different opinion to our ally,
Austria. (Hear, hear.) Well, air, I want to know whether
a public man could possibly have committed any act which
was so likely to compromise public men as that ? (Hear,
hear.) It le all very well for the noble lend at the bead of
the government to say that no sooner does a per-
son get Into power than he is smiled ; and the
noble toed seems to think that the voluntary wept-
seas of Dower is of es wonderful virtue that he appears to
me to forgot Use eirsanteteasse under which the Roble Seed
(Russell) notedly left ease. Re left office, first, not being
compiled diorama. He seas into office, &madly, when hi
.
dinned trhel tresa Ike eaMnet be joined anon lie mei vital
of all the lins that eould be submitted to the cabinet at
the time, 'eV:, or war. (Rear, bees.) Apia
that was so natter, but it was the very
epos whichthe was formed. (Hear, beerr IP;
had been a mere natter of internal regulation we should
tars had the people up in snag, and the noble
lord himself w-eald have aid that this was a
nistAer et wed that be weld not, therefore, joia the
slap Ms bin as be did upon a Rafts
Plidibb , I wet* kart whet MO the bag*

nese of tide country at present more then the q----.""soelt a
peens or war. You talk of principle; is thee, 60,37.4.7
eiple Aare ? (Hear, hear.) And I ask this house ogico,--
wMdso there is anything in the conduct of the go
at Mae at all equal in importance to the conduct of tbs
,tear all present—(hear, hear)—and whether the quills, a
itsias:
oror owner
hisolnao
atnat
atdhme tisttoomitioofn etotgereyththerinig ;am. that
Keying said ...thus much, very feebly expensing ohji
opinion wltioh-I really and sincerely entertain of the 06.,
duet of the noble lord, 1 will address myself to Q.-
mond subject, namely, the wee itself. Mr. Gibson asst
that he for one cannot understand the object for which i;
entered Into this war. I would ark him to take as --
gone instance ; and, though it may seem somewhat a school,
boy illustration, I will apply it theless. There vas
set of republics ones upon a time, in the very boom 4
which arose a power gradually built up, artfully macaw&
and eventually usurping dominion in thou n. ---.
Europe is a similar combination, I may call it, erne
a combination of separate states, in which there le now,
uatS
has been for some time, rising up a greet power, which k
likely to overshadow all of them, and acquire domieitio
over aIL The first body to which I hats alluded
were the republics of Greece and Philip of kuo.
don ; the second is Europe soil RWI•111. dad just
in the same way that the tar-seeing statesmen of AMIN
pointed out the gradual increase of power on the pat 0
Philip, so, I say, that the tar seeing statesmen of Imps
now can point to the overgrown power, the gradually s.
messing power of Russia ; and that as it was the intermit(
the Athenian government to oppose Phiji,,, it is cur lilts,.
eat to oppose Kneen. (Hear, hear.) The immediate caul
'of the war was a Baseline breach of all the laws of oaths
on the part of Russia. (Hear, hear.) Not the first breath
by any moans ; but the danger had at last growa to 63
gigantic a dimension that even our peace-loving oinoty,
our peace-valuing country, took fright, and opposed hermits
the aggrandisement of Reason. Sir, in doing this, I myths%
we have done wisely. (Hear, hear.) We should has
dose wisely to have done it before. (Hear, hear.) i•ao
though we had a great opponent in Napoleon, he bad IL
mind comprehensive and foteseeing ; he saw the diem
looming in the north, the great power circling the psle,al4
hanging over Europe threatening her with destractie•
(Hear, hear.) We at length have seen the 'Worn of his
vaticinations. And when the right hon. gentleman talks
of the horrors of war, which we all know, and of the peed.
ties it imposes upon us, which we all know, it is to dos
us from the pursuit of that which our own Mt
interest tells us we ought to pursue, namely, 63
Put down the power of Russia. (Hear, hear,)
I am unable to go on further with this question. 1 will only
say that I believe that it behoves every man fa'rly to eon.
eider this question, and if he is entrusted with power one
his fellow-men, to face it openly and avow his opinions epos
it, no matter what may be the consequence. I agree with
the right hon. gentleman the member for Manchester tkat
it is probable that the people will in a abort time gat tired
of the war, and that we, who are on the popular side sow,
' will have to encounter great obloquy, I am prepared to
encounter it, and, being prepared for it, if diabetes
should overtake our army, I will bear my portion of that
obloquy. But still, looking to the honour and safety of the
country, I say that this is a jut and ascemary war.
Lord C. HAMILTON contended that the fact of Loug
Palmenton's speech having been received without my
marks of sympathy from the house, mutt induce every Om
to feel how grave was the position of public affairs. He
urged that the only reply given by the noble lord to Er.
Giboon's question was that every one, every peanut, busy
what was the origin of the war. He pointed out
that Lord J. Russell, and the French envoy, is
the recent negotiations, were both satisfied with
the terms of peace proposed by Austria, and if that was so,
it appeared that that noble lord's opinion had been ignored
by the ministry, and they had forced this country and
Fresno into a continuation of the war; while they did not
condescend to state what means they had for carrying on
the war, or on what terms they would Lereatter be resdyto
conclude a peace. Referring to an observation of Lord
' Palmerston's with regard to the condition of Rene,
he urged that Turkey had been utterly ruined sod
destroyed by this war; and he expressed his
great surprise that Lord Palmerston should speak
with any satisfaction of the condition of the Principalities
under the occupation of Austria. He concluded by Wes
government
nmednetmshanoudlidng thbeat beforecompelled , 0
makeparliament
a n eazepplakr
iatt eddeth.th a
ration of the objects they sought in the war, the seam
they proposed to adopt for carrying it on, and the limits by
which it was to be bounded.

Mr. DISRAELI said that with reference to the quaint
raised by the motion of the right hon. gentleman the
member for Manchester, he wished to make a few observe
Lions, and he should studiously avoid on that occuion,
and at that hour, any dismission on the subject of
the conduct of the war. They had heard that
night some remarkable revelations and confusions—
(hear, tear)—made on the part of a minister in a high
and peculiar position, such as he thought bad never before
been equalled in the memory of any member of that how.
(Hear, hear.) What was it that they had heard that eight
so unexpectedly—(hear, hear)—and which, if he wu ant
mistaken, was destined to be impressed most seriously sad
moat palatally on the opinions of this nation ? They
had heard that eight admissions from a noble lord
recently employed by his Sovereign in the high parities
of a minister plenipotentiary in the negotiations of
subjects of no leas importance than peace a
war, that ►fter having given, as he admitted, great
labour, care, and anxiety to the prosecution of he
duties, be had arrived at what he thought a favourable
solution of the difficulties with which be had to contend,
and that in his own mind he had accomplished a result
which would have secured peace for his country, and that
in order to recommend that course to the government by
which ho had been employed, he returned to England.
Strange to say, it seemed that the noble lord, bodice no
sympathy on the part .of his colleagues, finding that they
did not agree in the policy which he recommended, and that
they decided on a course totally adverse to that which
he wished to sanction ; that they decided on
course no leu important than the prosecution of a
war which, in his opinion, ought to have terminated—the
noble lord acceded to the suggestions of his colleagues, re-
mained in the cabinet of which: he had been previously a
member during the negotiations—remained in that cabinet,
he the minister if peace, as a war member of that cabinet,
and recommended a vigorous prosecution of the war in his
place in parliament. (" Hear" and cheers.) The reams
given by the noble lord for the extraordinary course he had
pursued appeared to him (Mr. Disraeli) no less singular than
the conduct of the noble lord. This was no slight question. AB
hon. and 1 d gentleman who had preceded him in the de-
bate, said very fairly,that this must be considered as the
most important of questions. There was hardly a member
of that house who would place measures regulating our inter•
nal condition—however high he might place them—on the
same categery with the question whether peace wee to be
accomplished or war prosecuted. The noble lord Ind told
them that he thought it his bounden duty, .notwithstand-
ing his conviction that peace might and ought to have bets
obtained, that it was his duty to support the
prosecution of the war as a member of the cabi-
net and a member of that house; and he
rested his vindication of the course he had tall

on a principle which, he said, ought rather to rails
his character as a public man—namely, that he bad sae*
Aced his private feelings to a sense of public duty. He
(lie. Disraeli) differed with the noble .ord. The questiem
of peace of war, especially in the circumstances in whirl the
country was placed, was one which ought not to be an rpm
question. (Hear, hear.) After the very extraordioari
revelations they had heard that night, he wished to ask the
hums whether they were for peace or war; because, what•
owe opinions might be entertained on either side of the
house, they must all be of opinion that there was but little
chance of • satisfactory peace or a successful proseculia of
the war, if, in the bosom of the cabinet, such contudisteff
views prevailed. (Hear, hear.) That was the gondol
which the country should entertain, after the startling rat
'shone made by the Secretary of State, which would
long linger on the ear of the people of Engles/.
Be wanted to know why the cabinet did not ratify the
labours of their own plenipotentiary? lie thought the noble
lord had a right, generally speaking, to exercise re•
serve as to the policy of the government and the circles•
dances that might influence has conduct; but when the/
found a member of the cabinet sent to negotiate a latest
and succeeding in that object—for the noble lord did seemed
--still remaining a member of the cabinet, altbolgh
his labours were unratified— (hear, hear)—they bd
a right to expect from • government, ea CA.
**sited and so situated, • frank exposition of the
moons which induced the noble lord not to accept tbs
labours of his colleague. (Hear, hear.) Were the terns
deemed insufficient ? Wu Russia considered not to hes
made sufficient sacrifioes ? That would be a fair objectica
Bat then they had a right to know from the government
what sacrifices would satisfy them. (Hear, hear.) Vale/
they dealt frankly with the people in this natter,
especially after what ocenned that night, they could cot
call tapes the country to make greet sacrifices. If they Ind
that they could not support their colleague in the MUNI he
took, that they did not think he showed that preeciects
and acquaintance with the subject which they expeeted,
that greater sacrifices were to bo demanded from Berns
than those he obtained, that would be intelligible; bat
then the noble lord would, perhaps, think it his duty is
quit the cabinet of which he was so great a sell/
This, then, wu the end of the breaking up of cabinets,
that great investigation of the conduct of the war, of their
perhuman energy and transcendent experience of the isl
lord (Palmerston). (Laughter.) This was the penis;
the right man in the right place. (Laughter.) This ter

I the end, that even the question Peace or war r
become a mere party conaiderstion—(hear, hear); that the
interests of th 3 country were mended to the menace of a
majority ; end that the tumultuous and turbulent wow
I Mimed Downinermtreet had baffled all the sagacity of the
nendsiences of Vienna. (Cheers.)
Mr G. GREY denied the ezi•tesee of division M the
gibet. declaring that on the question of the war they wee
r ha' 4a4178(004 the noble lad flr

member for Lend** to say that the proposities referred
pwould be made by Austria ea ultimatum ; end
ntowil by Rods, the Austrian ambassador wield gait
gs. Farnham, tad the gowesmest**Austria would teeth•
is* entm late a tails, oesabisaties with the Revers.
mot ot Flume ; bst the right los. gestistsas the
Bose Semetary sew right
that the reams why
thot oropentim was set essepted by the Rag-
btu Cabinet wee that the Amides greersment
to sating it did sot hold out any llamado.
toot ita reection by Russia would be regaried by Austria as
o rano bells. He (Lord Oederith) multi set reamed, those
two stetenen, and impeded some esplanades is tuba
woe to then• d
Sir 0. ORGY bad set said that the mem why bee Yr
}tug's g 0000 neat refused their west to the Austria&
ropsoition was that Mettle held oat so hopes that, Hit
were rejeated, she weeld bezuse a belligerent, but that as
important considered's with them ia reference to
that proposal was that Audi& had gives so distinct iati.
station that she *mid become a)) Indiscreet Is tie "mat of
Its tejection by Russia. (near.)
In
SUPPLY.
Tbe house then went into oommittee of supply, bet ea as
appeal from Mr. Brother." as meount of its being peat 12
o'reit, the emirates imnedistely reported progress, and
obesieed leave to alt mph ea lissisy seat.
The house adjoersed at 11•11-mmet 1.