The Express.
London, England, 1862-04-02 00:00:00

POOH RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL

prove the possession of a pedantic education, but
it could not show that a man would be an
efficient public servant.
Lord STANLEY said that the objections which had been
made m the debate to the competitive system were not very
formidable. He urged that as regards the teats of physical
and moralqualities of candidates for the public servicesbeing
Dot applied under the system, the same tests iu those
respect* were as accessible now as they had pre-
vionaly been. The civil service examiners were
not wholly uncontrolled or irresponsible ; nor was
it the fact that practically the whole patronage of
the service was in their hands ; and it was a fallacy to
assert that the system of competition destroyed the self-
reliance at the candidates ; but the remit in the cue of a
person who hail gone through au examination was likely to
be the other war, and to foster his self.respsM and self-
reliame. The motion asked only an extension of an ex-
perimeat which had been tried in one department, and it
seemed to him a reasonable proposition.
Sir G. C. LEWIS urged that it was desirable that this
subject should be allowed to rest while the system of corn-
petitices, is its present limited state, was going through the
ordeal of experience ; and he thought that there was an
ground for assenting to the motion. As to the criticism
which had been exercised on the examination questa:els,
nothing was easier than to throw an air of ridicule over
isolated passages culled from examination papers ; and as
to their pendantry and unnecessary difficulty, it would be
useless to nudge examinations so easy that every candidate
could be equal to them. If the amendment was last
on a division, he should move the previous question on the

Tbe dZto i*:.as continued by Mr. Maned. Mr. Bentinck,

arid Mr. Morrison.
Sir J. PAK INGTON said there was one pert of this
system which was open to serious objection—namely, a
practice of compelling :temporary clerks to go through a
competitive examination before they were permanently
appointed, thus laying them open to the danger of failure
and the refusal of their certificaten He wished to know
whether this 'yeses still prevailed.
Mira. C. LEMIES mid the difficulty arose from a provi-
sion in the Suparaaau►tios Act, by which a clerk was not
entitled to his superannuation without • certi6cate. The
temporary clerks were appointed without examination,
sod if they were made permanent without examination,
they were not entitled to superannuation allowance. An
arrangement had been made that the Civil Service Commis-
sioners should grant a certificate to such clerks on the re-
commendation of the head of a department.
Mr. CLIFFORD argued in favour of competitive exami-
nation so far as regarded the higher and more intellectual
officers, but ridiculed its extension to such functionaries as
letter carriers and custom-house boatmen. He called at-
tention to the recondite nature of the examination papers
set to candidates for appointment in the civil service in
India. which he contended were not such as should be fairly

put before the candidates.
Mr. WAITEBIDE thought that men who came properly
trained from universities were not thereby disqualified for
the public serviere, and he could not understand the argu-
ment which Mined that such must be the CYO.
Alter a diemasima, in which Mr. Marsh, Mr. A. Steuart,
Mr. P. Urqviarti, Mr. Cease, Mr. Newdegute. Sir F.
Smith, and Yr. Pugh tociatspart,
Mr. Cochriuse's amendment was then put, and negatived
without • division
- •

me bows them divided au the previous queetion :
Ayes 1;4;
No..

The motioa thanfore was not pet.
FIRE INSURANCE.
Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN, after resenting several peti-
tions on the subject, moved for leave to lens in a bill
for the redeetioa of the duty on fire insurances. The hon.
gentleman said hie meson differed from that he had pro-
le:esti last year ia an important particular. He no longer
asked the home to reduce the duty at once from is, per
cent, to le • bat Ise eked them to reduce it to 2a. now and
to Is. after ihe bre of five years. At the present time the
tax yielded about 1,500,000/. per annum. (If that
a third arose from insurances where the premium
exceeded fie. per cent, and with which he did not propose
to meddle. The total lose, therefore, that owlet arise
from his bill would at the most be the third of a million
poem's, say *10,0004 From that, however, must be de-
ducted a certain sum for tbe natural increase of the impost
Is 18:19-60, it yielded 1,300,000/. ; and in 1..061,
1,500,0007. • so that he thought he might safely reduce the
loss by 100,0004 Then there was • large amount of pro.
perky which the reduction would probably .t mos care to
be insured ; sod he calculated that that would yield 50,0001.
more. (In the whole, then, be did sot anticipate that the
loos would exceed 180,0001. even in the first year ; and it
certainly could not exceed 100,0001. Making allowance for
the annual iocrease, be expected that the tax would in five
years have recovered itself to the extent of 750,0001. ; in
other words, it would have replaced the /10,0001. which he
assumed might possibly be loot in the first instance, and
would have provided a fund of 470,0001. to meet the second
reduction. He believed, however, that the increase would
in reality be much more ; for be had shows last yew that
while there was in the country 2,800.000,000 f. worth of pro-
perty that could not from its nature be insured, and
1,000,000,009 f. worth of property that ideally wee gas
protected, there remained 3,000,000,6004 worth of pro.
platy that was insurable, but prevented, no doubt, to a great
extent, by the duty, from being insured. (Hear, hem.) The
hon. gentleman then proceeded to quote a number of all.
thorities in support of his argument, including rood of
tateziocirel offices, a petition signed in if' by 3,750
nta, bankers, sod other inhabitants of the City, and
as opinion of Mr. Samuel Brown, the well-known actuary
of the Guardian office. Another eminent authority on the
subject, Mr. Lead Levi. said that the present high rate of
duty encouraged the • of not insuring at all, and that
that practice to be pining ground. The agents
of insurance companies had promoted petitions against the
duty, and be had • number of letters from egoista, showing
the result of the duty in preventing parties insuring.
Mr. HADFIELD 'mooted the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no
hon, esseateer would be justified in voting for the motion
unless he were prepared to bold by these two propositions—
first, that be meant to reduce that duty whether the public
income and charge could afford it or not ; and secondly,
that he meant to reduce (this duty in preference to every
other claim that could be adduced. Every vote
given for the hon. member's motion to-eight must mean to
assert the affirmative of these two proreitions. Rut lie
(the Chancellor the Exchequer) wished to record his sup-
port of the needive of either proposition. He would lay
down what appeared to him to be an elementary principle
of the case. The first question must be—Shall we have a
surplus income! Now the bon. gentleman, he was sure,
would not expect him —he would he the first to object to
such a course—to anticipate the statement be (the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) must make before 4( hours were over.
But it was essential. before they could test the principle
fairly, that they should ascertain whether they should have
a surplus income. Then earns the second question. Was
this claim to precede all otheis on this subject This was
a very grave matter, and it would not be very easy for the
bore to decide without having the whole case before them.
U the house considered bow many rates and taxes there
were which were more or less emaciated with war—(hear,
bear) be would not refer to the minor area, but speaking
only of the major instances, be thought no prudent man
who reflected calmly upon the proposition would wil-
lingly tie up his own heeds, and go with the bon.
member into the lobby on this motion. He hoped in what
he had said he might not be supposed to have disputed or
denied that • largee increase of business would probably fol-
low from the allsolitioa or the reduction of the tax; that it
would be a vary good thing, if they could do so, to liberate
ioaunoces hem the tax altogether. But it was of no use
to indulge themealves in vague declarations of financial
beeevolenee. It wee their business to look their difficulties
fairly la the face, and take care that they pee away nothing
which they had not got, that they gave each claim its due
precedeace, placing the first in it, order, and giving a
secondary position to that which was only secondary. He
hoped the house would not epee to the motion of the hon.
member.
Mr. MALINS maid the motion of the boo. member for
Dudley was only for leave to bring in a bill, and nothing,
he thought, could occur between that and Thursday that
could in the slightest degree prejudice the position
of the right hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Melia) was so fully alive to the neoeseity of
maintainini.llim public credit that if he found the
bill pre' • • in that respect, he should be the
first to all further proceedings upon the bill. But es
this was a tax which in his opinion was unjustifiable, most
inexpedient, and ineceeding on a principle which the right
boo. gentleman had always been the first to condemn, be
felt bound tosapport the motion, and not to act in opposi-
tion to the wimples of the right bon. gentleman.
Mr. HAWKEY said the right hon. gentleman had
assumed that because nobody had, prosier to himself, get
up to speak, nobody on that side of the house intended to
support the hon. member for Dudley. He believed the
right hon. gentleman would find himself mistaken, as he
(Mr. Heakey), for one, intended to vote for the
motion, although lie did not consider that he
thereby bound himself under any circumstances to support
the second reading.
Mr. ROGERS observed that the returns recently pub-
lished showed that the revenue had gone on iecressine, not-
, withateoding the reduction that took place last year, and
preyed, therefore, that the finances were not in that decre-
lid condition which would justify the Chancellor of the
EmMseier in restating the introduction of this bill.
_ .llr. Noffitls suggested that the question of the intro-
desticso of the bill should be deferred till Thursday. There
IMP is that house • number of gentlemen who thought the
whoit rdmep tea there
aaid nd
ms
,weregerothersand tax upno isothers
nfino favour
anf
d
1141.thieraldidir arf.,Cd,ut
; and all these would vote against the
car somber." for Dudley if he primal his motion to a diet.
mien that night. He submitted, therefore, that the bill
weld have a better prospect of success if postponed till
after the home was in possession of the financial prow-
elltne• of the Chaocellor of the Excquer.
Lei PALMEESTON—Before the bon. member replies,
I whits In enlimit sae or two observations to the house.
The aria salt that has been used in support of the
mottos of my honourable friend has been that this
tax is objectionable. I should like any honourable
member to have the kindness to mention • tax
to which some objection or other may not be applied.
either that it is offensive to those who pa., that it IS not
sufficiently general in its scope, or that it applies to some
reticular article effacers acme particular class et
the community. Ile dear it be as ozosodagly

UNIVERSITY INTELLIGENCE.

•
Mr. PoLl..t Erlbt. Kg l'H AHT asked tie Chid Secretary
for Ireland whether he meant to reposed with the com-
mittee on the Poor Relief Unbind) Bill Ware the Easter
recess; and whether he meant to proceed with the other
lri.h measures before the Limier recera.
Sir E. PEEL replied that he feared it would not be pcesi-
ble to proceed with the bill in committee before Easter.
He would. however, take the first opportunity of bringing
it forward.
THE EASTER RECESS.

Mr. DISRAELI inquired of her Majesty's government at
',that day it was proposed the house should rise for the
Easter vacation, and to what day it would stand adjourned?
Lord PALMERSTON said he would answer the right
hoo. gentleman's question en Thursday next.
CIVIL SERVICE EX AMINATIONM.

Mr. HENNEMSY, pursuant to notice, moved that the
house was of opinion that the best mode of procuring com-
petent persons to fill the junior clerkehipe in the civil *ar-
mee would be through • system of competitive examination
open to all subjects of the Queen who fulfil certain definite
conditions as to este, health, and character; and that. with
a view of establishing such a system of open competition,
it wan deeirsble that the experiment first tried at the India
House in 157.9 be repeated from time to time in the other
departments of the civil service ; that an humble address be
prevented to her Majesty upon the foregoing resolution.
He add that in the year Iwo a select committee of the
house Mid beep appointed to inquire into the system of
nominating candidates for the civil service. That commit-
tee reported in effect that the system was • delusion and •
fertile source of RiAlne, as responsibility ceased: and comp..
titioo was narrowed. The committee—over which the noble
lord the member for King's Lyon presided—recommended a
system of opencompetitioo, or that, sea preliminary test, ex-
andostion should he established. It appeared, how,
ever, from a recent report of the civil service com-
missioners, that the same system still existed
except in one deportrneet—namely, the Treasury.
so far an the patronago system was concerned they were in
.. worse position than they were years ago—Omar. heal—
and so far as the efficiency of the service was concerned the
house had been told by the committee that they were in a
wore position than before. Under theme circumstsoces the
time was come when the house might fairly Le celled upon
to esprees their opinion upon the subject, sod he had there.
fore ventured to ask them to do so in the language of the
committee. (Hear, hear.) The bon. and learned member
e..ncludel by moving the resolution as stated above.
Mr. VANMITTART secooded the motion,
Mr. e(S.MRA NE moved, an an amendment, to imbeti-
tote this resolution :—" That many of the qualities consti-
tuting a good public officer—good principles, good habits,
Poona judgment, general intelligence, and energy—cannot
be tested by any plan of public competition - the introduc-
tion, therefore, of such a system into all the departments
~4 the oublic service would be very injurious to their effi-
ciency." He urged, as an important point cow:meted with
this question, the manner in which old and meritorious
officers would sulfa by their sons losing the silventage of
nominating. lie reiterated his objections to the mode of
examination. and to the exiensiou of the system.
Mr. PEALINIC seconded the amendment. pointing out
bow little the eisteisatioo was calculated to secure the oe-
ces..,ry qualities for public offices. There wan tilt. FOleign-
031ce, for instance, where the disclosure of a secret might
be a national calamity. Did they think that ability to make
Greek iambics, or a familiarity with the binormal theory
would make a man more contiderdisd I Rut they had evidence
that the system had caused the greatest die.
content in the public departnienta, and he thought
that any one who read the examination papers would not
weeder at such a result. Ow queetion said, " Language
was either living or amid ; if living, was subject to constant
change and progression. Say how time, commerce, colonies.
mid foreign relations had modified the English language 1"
(L.,ngliter.) There was another question, which was still
more ridiculoos ; it was on the same subject : --" The
sightingale's thrill. the carpenter's drill, the soldier's drill,
the Deere's wear drill —flaughter) —the home's nost=ril
(loud laughter) : is there any even:44l(6oml conoexion be.
terve thew week, and if so, what !" (Great laughter.)
He confessed be eseld sot answer that qwelion, and be
4... tided if wee the Chaecellor of She Exchequer could
answer it.
The Cif .INCELLOtt el the EXCHEQUER—I did not
bear it.
Mr. PEACOCK wadi read it again. (The hoe. $lOll
learned member reed it ergo with greet gravity, hut amid
general laughter.) Hie reelly
,lido not tidbit it meson.
stile to require • eks a public office to
search for reef
isle.rbedim which he believed
would puzde the Chower,/ ineluequer. Menem
seven ,mestioee like ibis. sod lese esedidede was seqebed to
answer them in three bows. Why, ft beeldtebe mire than
three hours to uadersthed them (iber,beir.) gree in
were questions in the tad paper :—'•at ie the title of
f 'hau-er'is priaci poem !—who ea/led it 'The well of
il
Raglish uailefil ' and why! Wanton compares Chaucer
14 • premature yin spring is the fact which
Wastes isteeded to illustrate. and how do you amount for
it! What are the titles of the poems written by the author
known as Piers Plowman'. Who was the author of the
Po:yell...ear (Great laughter.) Ifs isontiroded that
aesiweriag such quietism, as he had quoted might

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 2, 1862.

agreeable thing M the country could go ou without
taxation at aIL If the army would be good euough to go
on without pay, if the civil departments could be cerried on
and justice administered without expense, and if ships guns
and the services of seamen were gratuitously given, it would
no doubt be exceedingly isouvt for those who have to
pay taxes. But a errantry requires certain arrangements
for the protection of property, for the maintenance of its in-
dependence, for the administration of justice, and for the
maintenanoe of social order, and those expenses must be
provided for by taxation. Every tax I, liable to some ob-
jection or other, and the country must submit to the Moon-
venieuce of taxation to obtain the great and inestimable
advantage of having the order of the country pro-
perly maintained. I therefore discard at once the
arguments which apply entirely to the assertion that
this tax is peculiarly objectionable. There are many gen-
tlemen who think that other taxes are still more objection.
able than this, and if the house were to put up one subject
of taxation to be be bid fur, 1 doubt whether this tax is one
that woull obtain the majority. But that is a quertion
that might be discussed at any time. My great objection
to the motion of the boo. member is as to the time at which
he has brought it forward. I hold that it is a principle of
our constitutional government that the Chancellor of the
Eschewer, as the organ of the government of the day,
should have left to him the discretion of proposing to paths-
went that financial arrangement for the year,which upon full
consideration he thinks hest adapted for the interests of tbs
country, and it is for the house to deal with it wises IS Is
proposed according as they may think fit. 11 es* boos
should think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer wpm&
too greet a change one way or the other, it is noillobt err I
potent, and his often been the case, for mosibm to date
their objections and propose alterations in ibis sesinge.
meats which the right hon. gentleman may soap* ; but
there Lan be nothing so inconvenient as, before the budget
is proposed, and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer has
made his arrangements for the year and is about to propose
them to parliament, for the house to pick out some
tax for reduction without knowing to what,
=cularthey may by so doing totally •
the arrangements which the responsible minister of the
crown may have intended to propose, and disarrange them,
perhaps, also in a manner injunons to the public interest.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and leagued member for Walling.
lord gives the strangest of reasons for voting in favour of
the motion of the hon. member. He says that be votes
for it not at all intending to pledge himself to
support it finally. He says :—" I vote for the in-
troduction, but if I find upon the statement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer that the repeal of
this particular duty will interfere with other arrange-
ments which I should prefer, I should object to the
second reading." The hoo. and learned member is
therefore prepared to (Five his vote for the introduction of
the bill, which upon his own showing may be a nullity, and
which he may be prepared pelt week to refuse to read a
second time. (Hear, heat.) I hold that the natural course
for this house to pursue is to allow the government to pro-
pel° their financial arrangements for the year, and to deal
with those arrangements in the manner they may think best
for the public interest, but not to introduce blindfold a
particular arrangement which may or may not conflict with
a better arrangement which the government may have to pro-
pose. If the vote for the introduction of the bill would be a
resolution that the house would deem binding, it might
be exceedingly inconvenient on some future occasion to
have that vote on record. If it is not to be binding, if
it is to be a mere nullity, then I humbly suggest to the
house that they would do much better to dispense with
this motion, and allow my right hon. friend on Thursday
next to state, unfettered by any previous resolution, the
arrangements which, upon the whole, the government
may think fit to pres.
After a few was* from Mr. SHERMAN in reply,

taco intelltsnut,

I N SOLV ENT DEBTORS COURT. -Amu. 1.

TIM trirmung OPTRIC COURT.

The sittings of the court are drawing to a doss. Cams
have been appointed up to the Easter ream, and two oases
have been fixed for the god May, with business in the
interim. It is understood that a staff of °Moen will be
retained, and there is nothing to prevent the Lord Clam
miler sending a part of the business from the crowded
courts in Hasinghalbstreet to one of the courts in Portugal-
street.
(Before the Chief Commissioner.)
IN Si CAPTAIN W. WOODLEY.
This MU came before the Chief Commissioner on Mon-
day, when an application was made for the oasts of emend
roles, on the part of Masan. Boddiegton. Upwards of
',mot. had been raid into court, and after paying a sum,
there was a balanoe of 789/. in hand.
His Honour made an order for the payment of the coda
of Messrs. Boddington, and intimated that the next audit
meeting should be not later than the 6th May. The court
had lost the able eardwas of Mr. Ingpen, on amount of his
health, and Mr. Web meld UM the next audit.

il.l;l;usedi;ided, when the numbers were
For the motion 127
Again* it ll6-11
Leave was then given to bring in the bill
Mr. WH TTES I DE obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the law of judgments in Ireland, and a bill to authorise the
bees of debentures chargeable on land in Ireland in con-
sexion with sales made by the United Eaten. Court.
Kr. BOUVERIE obtained a select committee to consider
whether it wee practicable to provide a compendious record
el parliameetary proceedings for the use of members.
THDCSTRUL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL.
Mr. SOTHERON-ESTCOURT moved for leave to intro-
duce a bill to eeneelidate and amend the laws relating to in-
dustrial and provident seentles. He believed there would
be no objeetion to the bill, sad on a future occasion he
hoped be should have a better opportunity to explain the
details of the onagers.
Leave wag given, and the bill was subsequently read a
first time.
SUPPLY.—REPORT. .

The report of the sums voted in committee of supply (
Monday evening was agreed to.
THE RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH COM.

The report of the ociatitiee on this bill was brought up
sod limed to, and leave given to bring in a bill founded
thereon.
The house adjourned at live minute to 1 o'clock.

CAMBRIDGE, Ann. 1.
G /SMOOT. —An examination of the geological clue
for certificates will be held in the Aria School on Saturday
next, at 11 o'clock.
NEW MUSEUMS, &c., AND SAINT MAIIT'S.CHUISCH.—There
will be a special congregation on Friday next, at 12, whereat
paces will be offered for the adoptiun of the last report of
the Syndicate for the erection of new museums and lecture
roans, and proposing the afilxion of the University, seal
to a petition for a faculty authorising the proposed altera-
tions in the University Church. Mr. Salvin is the architect
in the first instance ; Mr. Beat hi the mooed.