The Express.
London, England, 1864-06-28 00:00:00

THE F.Xl'll-og4,Ti [TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 28, 1864.

which we have been for so many year* Istociated—oar
natural age which is or has bees, uphill modern aggressive
principles have too far prevailed, the great conservative
central coutiterpoise to the ambition of the East gird the
West—(hear)—our mural ally, which has been nauseated
with us by many fir, with whom a war could sot but be
productive of the most serious and lamentable consequesoes.
not only to them but to ourselves. (Hear, hear.) But, my
' lords, what I expressed also was this, my fast that bar
Majesty's goveromenj, by the course which they pursued,
have placed as in • position in which we should be either
subject...el to the lamectobleconsequeness of such a war, or
to the discredit in which we should be held—in which, I
fear, we are beld—(hear, hear)—by the whole of Europe,
not for having abstained from war now, bat
from having for a long period of years bed out
to both contending parties menaces on the one hand and
encouragement on the other—a course altogether inconsis-
tent with that policy which her Majesty's government now
professes, and very properly professes—an earnest desire and
determination to maintain unbroken the peace of England,
so far as it cam be preserved with honour. (Hear, beer.)
That in a question on which serious discussion must take
place—that is a question the decision upon which will solve
whether, in the opinion of parliament and the country. her
Majesty's government have maintained inviolate the honour
of the country— (hear, bear)—or whether, on the other
hand, their policy has not beets such as to rupee them to
the charge of a feeble and vacillating opposition—yieldiog
at every step where eocroachment was threatened—
always anticipating that that encroachment would be met
with firm resistance, and whenever encroachment took
place yielding and protesting that no further encroachment
should be allowed to take place. (Hear, bear.) That
is the charge against which her Majesty's government
will hereafter have to defend themselves. This is a feeling
which I prevalent in the minds of the people of this
country—this is the feeling which has talon deep hold of par-
liament sod the country ; and if I wanted any coefirmation
of the course which her Majesty's (overt:menthes. pursued,
and of the course they may be expected to pantie, I should
find it in the concluding portion of the noble earl's speech.
in which, after elaborately discussing all the disadvantage
and danger of going to wa-, all the injuries we might sustain,
the loss of commerce, all the consequeoces which might
arise to a country like England, including even the contin- '
gency of the war leading to a rupture, at moms distant day,
with the Northern States of Americo—(a laogb)—the noble
earl, to my utter astonishment, concluded by saying, that
while nothing on earth would induce him to go to war while
we should bold ourselves aloof, bemuse our interests are so ,
vitally concerned, because our commerce is to extensive. I
because our relations are so various, blame our treaties are
so numerous, that England must keep the peace, and we I
appeal to the country to give us credit for maiataining it in
a state of peace and of internal prosperity aod wealth—but
the noble earl said, we reserve to ourselves, if further steps
abould be taken, the perfect right of altering our coulee,
and merificion all those considerations oo which be laid so
much stmts, and of entering on that war that he so justly
aod seriously deprecated, and of altogether departing from
the principles on which he acted for the last two years.
(Hear, hear.) That is exactly what the noble earl and
the government hays been saying for two years. First of
all Germany was to take into serious consideration the
dosser of incurring all the responsibilities of federal execu-
tion in Holstein. Then Denmark was recommended—as
this is only a federal execution, we advise you to sub-
mit to it : but if the Germans should go
beyond Holstein. if they should cross the Eider,
if they should only enter Sleswig. if the Diet turu
federal execution into an international question, then the
question will be altogether altered—then her Majesty's go
vernment may see the necessity of departing from the
course they have hitherto laid down, and in certain cones-
ponies afford material assistance to you. (Hear, bur.)
Again, Sleswig is occupied. We are assured that Sleswig in
only taken as a material guarantee for the fulfilment of other
1 engagements. " Oh, if Sleswig is only taken for fulfilling
' other engagements," says the noble lard, " that alters the
question ; but if the occupation is to be a permanent one,
that is a thing which her Majesty's government risaseit
tolerate for • single moment." (Laughter.) Well, Sleswig
is permanently occupied. Bat, says the noble earl, you moot
never think of peering into Jutland. (Laughter.)
Well, into Jutland walk the troop, for strategical reasoca,
it is alleged. This the noble earl does not presume to
justify; butilis says it isnot a sufficient reason for inducing
her Majesty's government iodinate& from their course. Well,
my lords, may I ask what is the contingency which is to
over-ride all the consideratioss which the noble earl has
laid before us! (Hear, hear.) I think parliament is bound
to have some answer given to this question. We will not
go to war, says the amble earl, bat we may see Teuton to
alter our coons. I think the noble earl went so far as to
say that if Copenhagen was bombarded and blockaded, thee
possibly, to overeat its rapture—passibly—(laughter)—her
Majesty's government might consider that the contingency
had arisen which would induce the government to depart
from their resolution. But short of the capture of Copse-
hagen, will the noble lord tell us how tar he will consent to
be driven before be departs from his prudent resolutioo—for
Ido not deny that it is prudent if it can be maintained
with honour. Meer, bear.) I hope I may be pardoned foe
having goo* so far se this—to point nut the gaieties to
which it will be duty of her Majesty's government here-
after to give a distinct answer, upon which I hope par-
liament will insist not only in having a distinct answer,
but is paring a distinct jingo:mot. (Hear, bear.)
But for the present I confine I should be very
sorry that this discouion should take place sow

—perhaps 1 have gone almost beyond my own inteetios,
perhaps 1 have gone beyond what might be desirable—
(" bear, bear," from the ministerial benches)—in the temp-
tation to follow the noble earl for the purpose of pointing
out not what we are to discuss now, but what we are to de-
nim hereafter. Forth. present. I earnestly hopethat, neither
with regard to the past oar the more important future, will
your lordships be led spas a partial statement, which bird(
that is before us, to eater upon an unprofitable discussion,
or to pledge yourselves individually or collectively to any
line, to pass any confirmation of the past, or to assent or
dissent from the course which has been pursued. (Chests.)

Earl GRANVILLE said—l think there should be • clear
understanding as to the entree intended to be pursued. and
that the house should adopt the course recommended by
the noble earl at the beginning, and which he repeated at
the end of his speech, that we should not this evening go
into a debate on this great subject without having the
natenary papers is on, bends. The noble earl, however,
did not adopt the course he himself suggested, but touched
upon all the points which he considered to be most vulnerable
in regard to the policy of the government. The noble earl made
statements with regard to the conference. and used emu-
meets which were spplic.able to any conference whatever,
celled together to establish peace between a weak and a strong
I nation. (Cheers) We may go on on both aides tieing decla-
matory statements and arguments without any result except
to create popular prejudice, which cannot affect the memo of
the country. (Cheers.) The noble earl went on to put into
the mouth of my noble friend statements which he never
used in the course of the negotiations. (Laughter.) Why
should the noble earl put to us this alternative—either to
declare to Europe and the world that, whether our interests
or honour were cocooned, we would not go SO war; or pledge
ourselves to what may be a convenient demand on the part
of • member of the opposition, but what it would be
unjustifiable in those who represented the people in this
house to exact—every possible contingency, without know-
ing the accompanying circunistaocas, which should induce
us to go to war ? (Hear, Lear.) The noble earl said be did
not wish to enter into • discussion. If the house is of •
different opinion we are ready to debate the whole ques-
tion now ; I.ut I hope it will not be discussed in • piecemeal
way. (Cheers.)
After a few words from Lord B•oUGHAM, which were
inaudible is consequence of the noise created by peers
leaving the house, the subject dropped.
SUPERANNUATION (UNION OFFICERS) BILL.
This bill was nod samosa time.

and he would shortly be able to state what course the
goverment iateaderi toadopt. The government proposed
to introduee bills at the possible moutest to carry
out the recommeadations of the select committee.
OPENING OF HAMILTON PLACE, PICCADILLY.
sir J. SHELLEY asked the boo. member for Bath, as a
member of the Metropolitan Board of Works, whether the
beard bad tome to any denims as to the opening of
Hamiltooldace to public traffic, with a view of relieving the
crowded state of Park-lane.
Mr. TITE said that the Metropolitan Board of Works bad
considered venom suggestion■ os the subject, but the,
thought that the beat and almost the only mode of effecting
the desired improvement at the cod of Perk-lens was by
opening flasnilton-plane. (Hear, hear.) The resolution
wig& they passed upon the matter they bed transmitted to
the Chief Commissioner of Works, and inasmuch as all, or
nearly all, the property to be taken belonged to the crown,
they ventured to hope and believe that in a very abort time
the improvement would be effected. (Hear, bear.)

pule for which hostilities were to begin ; end it did not ap-
mtbaittieadr
owptod.sa one
cost
caveryomgrearairt
k.imporwrierv;imi: very
did
DmlP"iotintltrpealtifyliehelyttotande whatqmeset she herself
ahadpoitiagzsdof
tavito—titoryooos.hiosuitedd
belong. On the other hand, say men who were considenng.
what advice in • very important European question—for I
sodovenreotigndiagdiser.iotammito"psednantoos—psrshioemiebet,
couldgea sot
their
pm-
etbly lose sight of the magnitude of the object—
the magnitude of the resistance which would have
to be overcome, sod the comparative means
which England and its supposed antagonist would
dicedad
rc a barss
o s o ft whichnkneel:ys b beer
lact:ss
m theseueP°6nest iilraedrest met
question.neW m es
uptp hoe
that
It
France,ht
of t hadnt
nb been
and we knew tbit that disposition still continued us.
changed. We had ascertained that Russia, for reasons of
which she also was entitled to be the judge, was not inclined
to take any active measures in support of Denmark. The
whole brunt, therefore, of the effort, whatever it might be—
namely, the effort todislodge the German troopeand these who
might come to their amistanos from the rest of Denmark,
from Sleswig and Holatein—would fall upon this country
alone. (Hear, beer.) Well, we Dave not thought it con-
sistent with our duty to give our sovereign advice to re-
dertake such an enterprise. (Ministerial cheem sad mu-
mmy.) We know the honourable sympathy which the
people of this coquetry feel for the unhappy condition of
Denmark ; but at the same time we did not feel it to be
continent with our duty to recommend to parliament and
the country to mike this great 'mortice and to undergo the
greatsacrifices which must be the consequence of entering into
such • oonfliet with the whole of Germany. I sseume that
in the present state of things upon which our decision is
made, the real contest lies between German. and Denmark,
with regard to—l am afraid I can hardly may, that part of
Sleswig io dispute, because it is impossible to say that the
dispute may not apply to the whole of Sleswig. It would
be more honourable on the part of Germany to be content
with that which they demanded, but we knew that
strength and success frequently carry men beyond that line
which, on cooler reflectios, they might have been disposed
to insist upon. Still the conflict is as regards Bleswig, sod
not as regards the independence of Denmark or the capital
of the Danish monarchy. I do not mean to say—and I think
it right to put in that reservation—l do not mesa to say
that it the war should WHIMS • different character, and if
the existence of Denmark se an independent power in Eu-
rope should be at stake—l do riot mean to say that if we
had reason to expect we should see at Co-
penhagen the horrors of • town taken by assault—
the destruction of property, the sacrifice of the lives not
only of its defenders but of its peaceful inhabitants, the
confiscation which would arise, the capture of the sovereign
as a prisoner of war, o ta of that kind—(" oh, oh")—
I do not mean to say that if any of these events were likely
to happen, the position of this country might not possibly
be a fit subject for re-ousideration—("oh, oh," sod
ministerial sheen)—or that other counsel might not properly
be taken. But this I say on the part of her Majesty e
government, if any change of polioy were thought desirable
such • change would be communicated to parliament if par-
liament were sitting, and if parliament were not sitting the
earliest opportunity would le taken of asking its judgment
Sir, I have to apologies to the house for having gone into
this subject in ea mach detail. (Hear, bear.) It ia not my
wish to provoke discussion. My desire was to explain the
matter as fully as I could. The papers which will be in the
hands of hon. members to-morrow will contain a full
account of all that passed in the oonferenos. All
the events which took place before the conference are
already recorded in the pipernwhich were laid before par-
liament some time ago ; and therefore every member will, by
looking at those documents, be capable of forming • proper
judgment ss to the conduct of her Majesty's government.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—ffii, I quite agree with the noble lord
that it would be very inconveolent for the house on the
present occasion to enter into a general discussion respecting
the transactions whisk have taken place between Denmark
and Germany, and respecting the relations which the English
government may beer to the transactions. I trust the house
will not be induced to ester into • desultory discussion upon
this important subject. One of the reasons which induce
me to rise to n'.ght is to remind the house of the position
which it occupies with referees:eta this matter. The house
should recollect that so far u the negotiations of the govern.
meat in this question between Denmark and Germany go,
the house his incurred no responsibility whatever. (Hear,
hear.) Since the end of last session the house has given no
opinion upon the subject. As I have myself taken some
part in bringing about that position which the home occn.
pies, I hope they will not deem it presumptuous on my part
to remind them of it. On the first night of the mention I
expressed the feeling which gentlemen on this side enter-
tained of • want of confidence in the foreign policy of her
Majesty's government and my disapprobation—the house
will not think I am speaking egotistically, for I speak
only in this way for the cooreuteoce of debate—my
disapprobation of the manner in which the negotiations have
been carried on, especially in the north of Europe, and if the
results which had been than realised. Had the papers been
presented to the house on the meeting of parliament, accord.
ice to custom, and as we now know they might have been,
there would probably have been oo difficulty before the
month of February had ended in asking the opinion of the
house on the conduct of those negotiationa lodeed, what ha
occurred in the coeference, judging from the narrative
perspicuous though sot satisfactory—of the noble lord, has
really very little to do with the great question
upon which the house ought, I think, to give its
decision. The conference met—though, by the bye, its
origin has not been quite accurately stated by the noble
lord. It war not called, u be sem at the desire of " the
neutral powers," but of use neutral power alone ; and that
hower was Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) It met without
pe and it cloud without hope. It met without a basis, and
therefore it led to no result. (Hear.) But let me remind the
house that from the period that parliament met until the
assembly of the conferenee the house gave no approbation
whatever to the conduct of her Majesty's government in re-
spect to it. On one occasion alone was in opinion
sought, in the shape of a formal motion proposed
by an boo. member opposite, sod on that occasion
I myself isterfered, and moved the previous goes-
tioe, on the ground that the circumstances which then
prevailed rendered it inexpedient for milkweed to pro-
m:moos an opinion on the subject. Her Majesty's govern-
ment, therefore, did sot enter the cootervece with the coo-
fidence of Parliament, but it entered it with only the pre.
vious question. But, sir, I think the time has arrived when some
epioioo of this house should be given (cheers)—although five
months have elapsed since the period when, as it now
appears, that opinion might have been conveniently taken.
I myself do not regret the delays, because they were occa-
sioned on both sides by those feelings which do honour to
the Hoes, of Commons.. I have always thought tbst one of
the principal reasons why the House of Commons, u a
political institution, has been so successful, and why it is so
marked off from all other popular assemblies, may
be totted in the respect which it exhibits for
the prerogative of the crown and for the true (auctions
of • constitutiosal minister. I therefore think that the
course which this house pursued was wise, temperate,
and politic. At the same time I think we should forfeit
all claim to the respect of our countrymen, and we should
not fulfil use of the most important functions of perlin
merit, if, in the present critical situation of affairs, we hesi-
tated to give our opinion on the conduct of her Majesty's
ministers. (Cheers.) Having on several occasions expressed
my opinion, I must now my that it is TOT intention on aie
early—eveo the earliest occasioo—to ask the opinion of the
house upon the I
question—loud cheers and counter cheers)—
and I have no doubt that shall find no difficulty raised by
the noble lord in fixing upon a period which I may think
may be most conveaierat to the hone to do that, (Hear.)
Sir, I would have said no more, had it not been for the
closing observations of the noble lord, which it appears to
me ought not to pass unnoticed. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I
must say I heard them with astonishment Are we then to
he taught by the noble lord that the *lauds of Denmark
only are necessary to the independence of that country?
(Cheers.) Than why is it that we have been committed to
• policy which so long and so pertinaciously declared that
the possession of Sleswig and Holstein by the crown of
Denmark was necessary to the balance and the mainte.
oases of the public law of Romps (Loud cheers.) It is
too much for us now to hear, under these circumstances,
that war may be impending at any moment, and that par-
liament, which is soon to be prorogued, may be suddenly
called together, because the noble lord and his colleagues,
who for a considerable period have been defiling the ground
upon which the balance of power and the maintenance of
the public law of Europe slue depends and should be
vindicated, now at the last moment finds, while he recedes
from the field of action, the possibility of • smaller issue
which in the interval may agitate Europe and disturb
and distract the public mod. I must say, after
the experience we have had ou this subject, that it is some
consolation—and I adopt that view of the question—that we
can really look on this only as a continuation of those mass-
less and spiritless menaces—Hoed cheep)—which have
really impaired the influence of this country; and by im-
pairing tho just inflames of this country in the councils of
Eurots. have redly diminiebed the most effective mean of
maintaining pesos. (Cheers.) Sir, I think the noble lord
might have spared that contingent menace to the house, to
the oonotry, sod to Europe. I must say for myself that, judg.
leg from the past, I would prefer that the affairs of the
coustry should be conducted ou the principles and
views of the members for Rochdale and Hinnirsgbas
than upon the policy which is avowed, or at
least espoused, by the noble lord. (Cheers). Ia
that case, as the conclusions are always the same our
position would be more consistent--cortaiolv more profitable,
and more, in my opinion, really digoifiet (Hear, hear.)
At least they (the hoe. nsmhers) would threaten nobody.
(Cheers.) At least they would not tell Denmark that if
she was attacked she would not find herself alone. (Re-
newed cheers.) At least they would not exasperate Ger-
many by declaring in the full parliament of England against
the aggressive outrages of her policy. At least they would
not lure on Denmark by delusive counsels and fallacious
hopes. I declare that in any opinion the position of Eng-
land would be more dignified if her affairs were conducted
upon the police which three gentlemen profess than the police
which the noble lord proposes should be the one that should
guide us. (Hear, hear.) Why, have we not month after
mouth bees reinacieg almost every country in the world?
(Cheers.) Yet when we thought we had at least secured
the biasing of peeee—wine at least we ruppoull,
frees the gloomy unsay* of ttheleeties and dlesositmee

which we have received this aerobic that we were in as in-
telligible position, and might look to enjoy that which some
might consider to have been purchased at too great • cost,
but of which the clear result seemed to be the pos-
session of peace —we had the announcement com-
bined with • cootinuatiou of thee. unsatisfactory
menaces ; and absolutely et this moment the whole
country is to be agitated by the possibility of parliament
being suddenly called together io order that the noble lord
may oommence a course of action which, if it were ever
justifiable, be was called upon to commence long ago.
(Cheers.) I trust, however, that this question will be
entered into more fully and completely. When I listened
to the narrative with which the noble lord favoured us to-
eight about the continued sacrifices of Denmark
and the continued approaches of her enemies, I
was sot surprised at the curiosity and interest which
were exhibited, as the noble lord entirely omitted
any notice of the inducements by which Denmark had been
led to make those sacrifices, or the menaces to the aggres-
sive powers which had always been treated with contempt.
I should have liked when this précis of the proceedings was
given us by the first minister to have had somesccount the
canna of those dreary consequences which be narrated. We
shall, however, soon have an opportunity of entering into
this matter. I accept from the noble lord his
courteous promise that be will make no difficulty
respecting the day on which I shall venture to ask the
opinion of the House of Commons upon the policy of her
Majesty's government, and I will take care there is no un-
geometry delay before I avail myself of it. (Hear, bear.)
The motion was then agreed to.