The Express.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

to make • subsidy ? His (11dr. Walpole's) idea was that a
subsidy or a loan were eves worse than • guarantee. Then.
to his utmost astonishment, the right hon. gentlemaa *aid.
if they rejected this resoluta., it was their duty to suggest
os the house some practical course for the government to
adopt. Why, what was the evocative government tor ?
Did the government really wish that the executive tune-
tions of the government should be canted en by the House of
Commas, or by the opposition to the government. (Cheers.)
Well, he really had not intended to take part in this discus.
sion, bat be considered that the objections to this nibl
tion were so great that he hoped the government Irma Mt
hastily press it on the house. He did not know that he mild
add anything to the arguments of the member for the liabl
versity of Oatord, but he begged the government to roma
the language of the convention—to the two last ardekew
and too +wider what the effect of that convention wail is
if they were to persist in the course that they proposed, of
by that convention they were making Eaglets:l the trustee
of the contractors of the loan, the trustee of France
and of Turkey; they were bringieg on Enema
all responsibility which would att, eh to that true
teeship ; and he, for one, was not prepared to adopt
propositions which would involve them in complications
that might lead to emanation and to differences even
greater than those that now pressed upon them.
Lad PALMERSTON—The right hon. gentleman I
think very mach misunderstood the arguments of my right
bon. friend. My right boa. friend by co moans meant to
soy that it was the duty of these who sit opposite, or of any
person in this house, not being the responsible advisers of
the crown, to propose measures for the executive govern.
meat. The argument of my right hon. friend was this
explained to the house the financial position in which
the government steads. He first of all argued that
a certain expenditure was essentially requisite for the mili-
tary service of Turkey, and I may be allowed to say with
referee.* to what has fallen from other gentlemen in this
debate, that it is no reflection upon Turkey to assert that,
engaged in a great war, requiring most extraordinary exer-
tions of • military kind, her ordinary resources arc icsall-
cient for that emergency. I have been taunted by the hoa.
member for the West Riding because, having aaid last year
that Turkey had made greater advances in insproverneat
than almost any other country had ever done within the
same period of time, I was, as he said, inconsisteat
in now saying that she could not carry on the
war without extraordinary means. Why, this cam-
try is unable to carry on the war without exile-
ordinary means, France is unable to carry on the war
'Most extraordinary meal', and Austria is unable to
maintain even her armed peace establishment, and there-
fore it is no contradiction to say on the one hand that •
country has made great improvements in her internal a-
Ruination and resources, and yet that engaged in a
contest which requires extraordinary efforts, she is usable
to meet those efforts by the ordinary resources of a time of
peace. Then, I say, that my right hos. friend argued that
assistance is notated for Turkey, to enable her to bear
the inevitable burdens of the war. Well, our nee
sure has for its object to assist her in raising
those minas. There are two kind of objections that have
bees made to the measure. Some gentlemen object th it
because they would prefer separate responsibillty to joint I
responsibility, or because they think it would be better at
ones to incur the whole amount of responsibility and to give
the money in the shape of a gift, rather than have the lia-
bility hanging over our heads. One get of objectors, there-
, fore, object to the method. There are others who object on
broader grounds, who think that the war ought not to be
carried uc, that peace ought to be made at any price, and',
. who object to anything that furnishes the means to
prosecute the war. Well, that is an intelligible
objection, but Ido not thick it is an objection in which the
, majori'y of this house indisposed to concur. And I must
say, that the language of my right hon. friend who spoke
, near the gangway, and his arguments, did not appear to in
, to have much force or value, when he said thnt one
tion he had to this resolution was the amount of amides
that we have made ourselves in the prosecution of this war.
If we have made those efforts out of the resources of this,:
a tinny, for the prosecution of this war, surely it would be
inconsistent in el:ahoy* to refuse this, which is no effort,
ae we contend. But, sir, my right hon. friend's argument
; was this—be said, we assume that assistance is necessary,
and the government have provided by this treaty
'r for the assistance which may be required, that is to say by •
loan oor.tracted under the guarantee of England and Frames.
Well, he say. you object, and what do yen propese instead
of that, and he argues that all ether methods of procuring
assistance from this country and fr:ca France in aid of Tar-
' key are impossible, because, and he says to thine who urge
that we are to give the money at once, bow are you to god
it? You have not the money at disposal, and you are pre-
cluded by the terms of the engsgement at the loan you have
entered into from raising another loan till the end of the year.
Well, then, the alternative which the house has ultimately to
determine upon is this, will they sanction this method of
assisting Turkey to carry on her defensive war—a war to
which we arc pledged in supeott, and for the support of
which we have made great exertions of our own—will the
house sanctiot the engegementa of the crewn by giving this,
sulatenee to Turkey, or will they say to the crown that as'
assistance shall he given? (Hi sr, hear.) Well, then, my
right by n. friend wishes the Loner to consider the position in
which they would place the crown sod the country, and the
[(amalgams° of the alliance in which we are engaged. It
may undoubtedly be, that this house may think we have
come to the end of our resources ; that it is time to
come to a stop in the tonne in which we have *abashed.
They may altoge:her alter the opinion that it is necessary to
prosecute the war with vigour; they may say we will hear
no more of it, we will not even undertake a remote and con-
tingent liability to enable Turks to carry on the war with
its own resources and means. That undoubtedly euld be
• line which 1 should be deeply grieved to see tnat she
house should take, but it would be a line which would be
plain; but if the house is determined, as I believe it to be,
by carrying this resolution to support the crown in the con
duet and vigorous prosecution of the war, why then I
should recemmend it not to take a stand upon a compara-
tively small difference of opinion, so as to pee-
elude us both in giving assistance and the particular
method in which this assistance is to be givea.
Sums gentlemen may have a preference for a separate It..
hility instead of • joint one. Well, that is • matter of
opinion own which it is perfectly intelligible that men
should differ. But is it worth while, for the sake of that
difference of opiuioo, to send the convention back to Frame
and to Turkey to be remedelled—throwing back, allow me
to say, at this tints of eau, the assistance which this loan
would afford to Turkey to an indefinite pealed ? (Hear,
hear) For let us remember the time of year at which we
are discussing this matter. No change can be made without
a fresh convention. That coavention mast go to Constan.
tinople, and we must wait till it has been ratified, and must
semi back to parliament for unction and authority to carry
it Lao effect. We are now in the middle of July. Is the
bale prepared to sit till that change bas been made ? or
will they insist upon it that no effect shall be given
to the measure until the next session of parliament,
when it will be too late to afford to Turkey the assistance
which we think we are bound in honour to afford her.
Sir, this is really a more serious matter than some bon. gen-
tlemen have chosen to consider it. (Cheery.) It does
effect the honour of the country—(hear, hear)—it does
affect these great interests for which this house and this
enuttry have made such great and noble efforts. (Hese,
bar) I entreat the house not to deal with this tastier
aa the narrow ground upon which it has hitherto been
discussed, bat to take • broader view, and to consider the
great and important interests which are at stake, and the
otasegaences which may result from the refusal of the
Muss to eviction the convention. Bir, the right hen me
Oman (Mr. Walpole) has made en appeal to her Majesty's
I government upon the question of time. Well, really, if
that is his ground of objection—if he:thinks that the lOW
lotion having been put on the votes only on Monday, ail
I require more time to consider it—
Mr. WALPOLE—No. 1 said the noble lord should re
eousider the resolution, sad alter the plan entirely.

Lord PALMERSTCN—WeII, the right bon. gentleman
is *statesman who views things, I know, upon a great scale,
and 1 as mire there is no man in the house who has the
honour of the country and the great interests concerned
• more at heart than he has. He asks the government to re •
consider the arrangement. Now will the right hen. pods-
man reconsider a little that proposition 1 (Neer.) Do not
let him taunt me by saying that I am asking him to suggest
methods of proceedings to her Majesty's government, but
just let him follow out in his own mind the course which
would have to be adopted, supposing her Majesty's
government were to accept his suggestion and to
reconsider this arrangement. Why, here is a treaty
signed—(cheers)—bers is a treaty ratified—he tween
France, England, and Turkey. Tho ratification,
have been exchanged at Constantinople. We cannot
alter that arrangement without a new treaty. Well, cow,
let the right hon. gehtleman think a little how that new
treaty would have to be worked eat, and how lung this
would take. There must be a ntgotiatim with France.
Would the government of France agree to the change? I
will not undertake to say that it would. The ray. rnment
of France made rest objections to the arrangement—l was
going to say proposed by the right hon. gentleman, but
then have been so many different opinions expressed en
this subject in the coons of the debate, that I am unable to
• state what le the opinion of the tight hoe. grixeman. I
would assume that he would be satisfied if toe guarantee
were separate instead of joint. [Mr. Watpuie here
made a remark which it.. inaudible in the gal-
lery.] Well, would he wish the messy to be an
entire gift instead of a loan ? Does he peeler the
Sardinian arrangement, under which the money was ad-
, vaned at once to Sardinia, the British government taking
security for the payment of the interest ? W Lettere ar
rangement the right hon. gentleman may propose, he must
me that no change can be effected witaunt cancelling the
present treaty and entering into a new one with France and
Turkey. If we were talking in January, supposing it to be
right, there sight be time to do so ; negowiatiuns might go
on, a treaty might be signed, the ratifications might be ex-
chinned, and there would be time for the convention to be
submitted to parliament for its concurrence, and to he carried
r into execution ; but in the present state of the es .sion, with
t the end of the mullion so nearly approaching, that arrange-
. meat would practically postpone till the nest session of paths
• meat any assistance to the Turkish government; luso the way
of helping them to obtain a loan, and I have no hesitation
r station that that would be attended with the most (.I.altrou.
r °onerousness in regaro to military operations. (Chun.)
• declare to the right hon. gentleman and the haus' that it is
I sty perfect conviction that if we refine to give to Turkey
them additioesl means which she requires fur the mainte-
t name of her army, the eonsequences will be most eaters'
tons. The house may be willing to take upon i:self thee
• respoosibility. Thos gentlemen who have declared them
• selves reedy to carry on the war with all possible vigour
—(ahebterial ohms)—osi who hays touted her Majesty's