The Express.
London, England, 1864-06-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.

•
1017511 OF 001‘0110N8.--WIDBMIDAT1 JIM 8.
lII2OZIGATING LIQI7O/11i BILL .
faletitmid fres 11 'e Raprose.L.
CaptaiaJTILVIB mid be mess to move as an amenchnisti
that sae Mahe creol a mead time that day three months,
far two remota. He did so, fret, se npreaasting the work-
ing classes. He believe' there was only one member of his
constituency who was Dot • working man. His second rea-
son was that, having bed the misfortune to spend five
swaths in that part el Amadei which was subject to the
Mains Liquor Law, he there saw the absurdity of the system.
The bill proposed that two-thirds of the ratepayers should
force the other third to become total abstainers. Now that
was contrary to the whole of our constitutional system.
Mr. BRIGHT said he thought hie hon. friend the member
for Carlisle had no meson to complain of the manner in
which the house had received the statemeat he had made to
them. The house had listened to his speech, lied bad given
evideooe that it felt that this was a question which had
more hold on the minds of the people of this country than
it bad some time ago. Everybody, be believed, would agree
that the evil which his boo. friend had to some "-
teat explained was • very grievous one in almost every
part of the minntry. The question came to this—Was there
anything the house could do to meet the growing opinion
in many parts of the country, that public-homes and
beer-shops were in far greater numbers than the fair wants
of the people required ? With regard to the magistrates
he must say that with some few exceptions they performed
their duty—and he thought it a rather disagreeable duty—
probably as well as it could be performed by any body of
men to whom they could entrust it. But he
did not me why public opinion In a district
should not have something to say with regard to this '
matter. Some time ago, when he was down at Birmingham,
a large number of gentlemen interested in this question
called on bin) and his colleague, and they bad • long discus-
sion with thew, and he explained to them his objections to
this bill, on the grounds he had stated. But it appeared to
him that the house might proceed a step further than it bad
done, by entrusting to the ordinary local governing power
is clues and boroughs, the municipal corporations, the de-
-10.6100 of this w hole question with regard to the licensing of
'abbe-houses and beer-shops within the limits of their
juriadictioa. He thought that by that means they would
avoid anything like sudden interference with property;
they would avoid that caprieionaceas of action which might
take place if two-thirsts of the ratepayers were empowered
to judge this question, and at the same time they would give
to the whole body of ratepayers, through their mu-
nicipal council, the determination of a question which
every dor, he believed, was bee-el:alive of more interest
to the great masses of the people. And if this answered in
cities and borough, it might be found before long that some-
thing of the kind might be attempted in the country dis-
tricts. He should not propose such • measure, as he was not
so sanguine of the emcees of these measures as to induce
him to become the advocate there of the temperance
party. He had not the faith which many of them had in
legislation. He had more faith in the improvement of the
people through education. He did sot think that drunken-
ness in this country was on the increase, but he believed that
it was gradually diminishing. and he hoped that whether
they altered the law or not, they would find the working
classes of this country becoming more sober than they had
been in past times. 'But as he had on many occasions been ,
before the public as an advocate of temperance in this country
he had felt that he ought to state the reasons
why, if the house thought fit to take any further
step in legislation on this subject, it ought to be by giving
the mover to the municipal oour.cils. He thought that by
doing that they might promote temperance among the
people, sad at the tame time avoid committing •
manifest isjostice to thousands of peewee engaged in
this trade, and whose property would be altogether uncer-
tain if this bill received the sanction of the house.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he had been many years in wile-
snent,and bad sever heard a more mischievous bill proposed.
Mr. W. MARTIN said that • bill had been passed in the
year 1736 to limit the sale of spirits, and it had been found
to work very injuriously. Them had been no fewer than
12,000 convictions under the act, sad it finally became—to
use the words of • noble lord in another place with retract
to it—odious and contemptible, and policy as well as
humanity induced the Commissioners of Excise to mitigate
tetaitelialties imposed on those who had beta om-
it the present bill passed, the probability was
that it would create greater mischief than those against
which it was levelled.
Mr. SCOURFIELI) stated that the main objection be
had to the present ball was the principle which it sought to
introduce of giving power to magistrates of cootrolliog
their neighbours. (Hear, hear.) A measure of this sort
could not be carried out without cassiag great and UOl3O.
maul irritation. He was ready to support any immure
for esforcisg the proper regidation of drinking boasts, but
le could not give his assent to an act of indiscriminate legis-
lation by which majorities would have the power of opprine-
lag misorities. •(Heer, hear.)
Sir ,G. GREY said that as every member who had
followed the hon. member for Carlisle had spoken against
the bill, he would state very briefly the objections which
he had to it. It was proposed by the bill to be muted
that any number of ratepayers—bow few or how many
was not stated—might, by application to the mayor of a
borough, require that a mama should beinatitated to ether-
kin whether a majority of the ratepayers were in favour of
the provisions of the bill being put in operation. tle cos-
sidered that to be a most objectionable provision. (Hear.
hear.) One effect of its adoption would be that in districts
in which the bill was brought into operation the bosoms of
all persons who sold any kind of drink except water
would expire on the 10th of October following
the bill being brought into operstios ; every pith-
lk-house in the district should close, mid it
would not be lawful for any person to buy a
ease of beer ors glaze of wine within the risrish or boeoegh.
The measure would he so intolerable, that it would he im-
possible to carry it into effect. (Her, hear.) It inlaid
prove a hardship to the poor, and no., whatever to the
rich ; because tbe rich and the middle daises could do what
the poor could not do—namely, lay in a store of wine,
spirits, or beer. The effect therefore, would be to debar
the poor man from the one of that which was in Itself
innocent, and is many cases beneficial, because it was liable
to abuse. Although be could not support the bill, he did
( not web to discourage say issitireste means to cheek the
evils of drunkenness. (Hear.) He was of opinion that the
law with reference to the regulation of beer-houses was sot
enforced as it ought to be. By the law as it stood, the
penalty of coevictios foe the third time for permittiag
drunkenness or disorderly conduct in a beer-house was a dis-
qualification to sell beer for two years, and, inasmuch as the
Witham might be carried on by • trustee for the benefit of
the convicted proprietor, there was a power conferred by
the Ist of Wm. IV., ch. 64, me. 13, to close the premises
altogether for two yearn, alter the third conviction. That
was a salutary provision, and in the year 1861 it was pat
Into operation in the metropolitan district in the conviction
of 44 beer-houses, iu 1862 of 15, and in 1863 in one case only.
It was not as generally known through the country as it
ought to be, that such a provision existed ; and he believed
that if it were more generally put into operation, a remedy
would be thereby found for many of the evils complained
of. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. BUXTON mid he felt • sincere respect for the member
for Carlisle, and for the endeavours which he and others
were making to lessen the tremendous evil of drunkenness.
But he was persuaded that the way to cope with it
, was by employing all possible means of raising the character
of the working dames. An attempt of this kind would, he
believed, prove futile as regarded drunkards, and unjust to
the sober part of the people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUMBEBSTON said that the objections to the bill
-had teem 60 fully stated that be did not think it esceseary
to enter at any length into the reasons which induced him
to oppose the second reading.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER said that, though his sympathies
were with his boo. friend the member for Carlisle, he could
not support the extreme measure which he had introduced.
A great deal had been said about the bill being • piece of
class legislation levelled at the poor man and leaving the
rich unaffected. The feet, however, remained that immense
numbers of the poorer clauses were in favour of it. He be-
lieved that if the borough for which he sat and the sur-
rounding boroughs were polled, the great majority of the
working classes would be found to support the magma
Mr. HENLEY stated that from his experieoce he could
say that justices in granting licenses had reference solely to
the wants of the particular district. (Hear, hear.) With
reference to the bill now before the house, he should oppose
it because he believed it to be thinst and wholly inoperative. I
(Hoar, hear) It would be unjust because they had no
right to legislate with regard to the poor man and not with
regard to the rich man. He believed that if the bill were
sought to be brought into operation people who were now
moderate would go into an adjoining iamb and drink twice
as much as they would do in their own. (Laughter.) They
should trust altogether to the good sense and good feeling of
the people. sod to the increase of education amongst them,
for a lemming of the evils of drnakennees, for they never
'mold make people temperate by act of parliament. (Hear.)
Mr. PEASE said he regretted the right boo. gentleman
did not state on the part of the government that they were
prepared to legislate on this subject. lie lived much
amongst the poorer classes, and he knew that they were '
moat in favour of the bill. If the boo. gentleman divided,
he should vote with him, t" Divide, divide.")
Mr. SCULLY hoped the bill would not go so far as to
be committed. If it went into • committee he should move
that Ireland be exempted from its operation. (Laughte...)
He believed that they could not proclaim sobriety by
eompuliiion. Daring the debate on the bill be saw mambas,
who were loing to vote is its favour et the refreshment
table in the lobby. (Laughter, and cries of "Divide.")
Be was sot going to mention any names. (Laughter.) But
be thought it ithossistent that some of those who were
going to vote for the bill should themselves partake of
sherry and stronger drinks outside the door. (Laughter.)
The house then divided :
For the second reading
pert ri2-257
VALUATION OF LANDS AND HERITAGES
(SCOTLAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL
The order for the mooed roadie, of the Valuation of
Leads sad Heritages (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill led to
some discussion ; but, a quarter to 6 arriving, the debate
was brought to a premature elope without being coociaded.
The Railway Collimates' Powers Bill was read • third
Bowed pawed.