The Express.
London, England, 1863-07-14 00:00:00

GREECE.

-----
The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to sob the noble
earl whether there wen soy truth in the statement which
appeared two or three days ago in some of the French semi-
offecial papers to the effect that the family of the young
Xing of Greece had declared in London that his Majesty
would not start for his destination until some arrangements
had been made between the English government and the
National Aseembl) of Greece for the temporary occupation
of that kingdom by English troops?
End RIISSELL—No such intimation has been made to
tJare English government
The Margie/ of NORMANBY said the statement ap-
peared is Ls France, which had as much of a semi-official
deuseter in Fracas as the Oteerver had in England.
THE CIRCUITd OF THE JUDGES.
The LORD CHANCELLOR introduced • bill to enable
her Mejerty in °mud to make alterations in the circuit., of
the judges.
The bill wen then read • flint time.
PRIVATE BILL&
The following bills were read a third time :—Calway
Water, Milford Haven Dock and Railway, Great
North of Scotland Railway, Forinartine and Buchan Rail-
way North British Railway (Wansbech Railway, Re.).
lei:ad Railway, Great Northern Railway (Spalding to
March), Lynn and Suttee Bridge Railway, Great Eastern
Railway (additional ;ewers). Loden, Brigton, and South
Comet Railway (sew line at Croydon, he.).

THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND BURIAL fikitVlCE.
Lord EBURY said the house would recollect that six
weeks ago he moved en address to her Majesty, praying ter
to appoint • commence to consider what steps ghoul
be
Liken to obviate the scandals which arose from the com-
pulsory date of the law requiring the indiscriminate use of
the burial service of the church of &redid. It then ap-
peared to Indio unanimous feeling of the door that the evils
WWI of such an intolerable nature that they ought to be
pat an end to as soon an possible, and eventually the most
revered primate said he would do all that he posed:lly could
to devise some legislative remed . lJnfortunately while
this matter use pending the went on as tbsy did
before. Only the other day be received a letter from
• gentleman in Warwickshire relating to • case
in which a men havieg pat an end to his
existence by deliberately walkiag into • pond, an inquest
washeld and the reedit was • verdict of insanity, and an
order by the coroner for the burial of the body. The
curate of the parish said he dared not reed the appointed
service, and the service was ultimately performed by • cler-
gyman from • distance, who was ignorant of the air-
cumstames. Another cam of • similar kind bad happened
in a more populous place. In that instance the service was
performed amid the murmurs of the people assembled, and
when it was over • woman meat up to the clergyman and
said to him, "Sir, the man you have buried was my hue
hand ; you may say what you please, but I know he is
gone to helL” Oasts of this kind showed the neonsity for
the question which be had Dow to put to the most reverend
prelate, namely, what steps Mame taken towards devising
• remedy for the evils in question.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he had no diffi-
culty in answering the question. The promise he made was
that the subject should be brought under the grave and
serious consideration of the bench of bishops, sod that he
would take every means in his power of ancertaioieg the
opinion of the majority of the clergy on this important
question. in fulfilment of that promise • very large assem-
blage of the bishops took place about four or five month, ago.
It was attended by the prelates of the united church of
Inland end Ireland, and oleo by • considerable number of
colonial bishops. It arrived at no definite con-
clusion, and was adjourned. The lower house of
convocation had also takes the subject into consideration
sod its views with regard to it would he ascertained through
the proctor. He hoped that soon after parliament again
met be should be able to state what was the result, and
that some satisfactory conclusion would be arrived at.
The Earl of DESART said be retained the opinion that
the question should have originated in the coevocation,
adding that no one could doubt the possibility of repentance
at the last momeet.
The Archbishop of YORK said, after what bad passed in
convocation and a correspondence which had taken place en
the gabled, be did not entertain any sanguine hope that
say measure could be introduced in the met minion of par -
ban:MA which would meet with general approval. No doubt
there wee every intention to meet the question idly and
fairly, but there was great difference of opinion
to the remedy for the evil. No doubt the difficulties
which attended the guidon were very peat. He
had looked fully into the subject, and he could not my
that he was prepared at prompt with any
suggestion. He thought it would be inconvenient if the
hones were to separate with any idea that a pledge existed
on the pert of any member of their lordship.' house that
this question would be brought forward spin next session.
He did not believe that any recommendation tending to re-

move this difficulty woad emanate from the bench of
bishops, or that any improvement could be expected to
amain* from • royal commission.
Earl GRANVILLF expressed his great regret that the
most rev. prelate bad utterly taken away all hope of alle.
vesting this most snots difficulty and burden to the con-
viction of many clergymen.
The Archbishop of YORK said be did not wish it to be
tuaderetood that he had abandoned all consideration of the
question. He merely meant that he did not undertake to •
offer any hope of • satisfactory solution at present.
The Bishop of EXETER said he had frequently hoped
that some solution of this difficulty would be discovered, ;
but at present he entertained no such hope. At the same
time he knew that his friend the most rev. prelate would •
do his utmost to give the subject the most deliberate and •
anxious consideration ; and there was no part of her Majesty's
subjects whom the bench of bishops would be sogiadtomatisty
in this matter as their lordships. If it were possible, he
hoped they might get out of this dilemma. Were they pre-
pared to say that the burial envies should not continue as
en expression of Christian hope over those who were
brought to the grave! (No.) He thanked their lordships
fee that expression of opinion. That being so, they must
regard it se an essential part of the funeral service that it
should ooetain the express Intone of Christian hope.
But was that language to be used iediscrimioately it
had been suggested that the use of this expression of hope
should b• lift to the discretion of the clergyman. He
sincerely hoped that this would never be—(hear, hear)—
that there would never be an inquiiitio post mortem
at the grave. (Hear.) Then came the qmstiou
of whether a clergymen who omitted to nee the service
should be made liable to punishment. He hoped the matter
would in this respect be left as it was. At present • clergy-
man who omitted to perform the service was liable to ecele-
*ionised proceedings. And so it ought to be. The question
then •rose, whether a demean would lay himself copes to
ecclesiastical punishment who professed himself unable to
use this language over men who had mat off their Christian
allegimme, or who had died, it might be. blaspheming their
lßissddeeeemer. The utmost punishment th►t could be
inflicted on • clergyman for such an offence was
not a heavy one—it consisted of suspension for three
months ; and be could not doubt that ia eases of this kind,
where the clergyman admitted his offence against the law,
and submitted himself to kis bishop to award his sentence,
that antenna would be a lenient one. He thought the
matter should be left there—(bear, hear)—unless they were
prepared altogether to eliminate the language of hope from
the service. (The right rev. prelate, who was Dot through.
oet distinctly audible, resumed his sect whilst delivering the
last few sentences of his speech, at the conclusion of which
be was cordially cheered by their losiships.)
The subject then dropped.
POLAND.

Earl GREY rose to move that an humble address bear.
seated to bar Mutsu for papers with regard to Poland.
Let it sot be sapwood that he (Lord Grey) was more
indifferent to Poland thee any of then lordships.
He bad observed with as much horror u may one could
have due the frightful bloodshed that woo gulag on, but
he did sot think it became s great nation to act upon mere
impulse. We ought to consider what we could, and what
we ought to do; but he did dot believe that it was the
duty of this country to set up as. a general redresser

TITE

of grievances all over the world. (Cheers.) He thought
that her Majesty's government sbouldact in this case an they
had ticket with regard to Amean. We had seen with
great sorrow, and with equal surprise, a bloody
and most purposely civil war waged in that country fur
above two years ; but her Majesty's government thinking.
with the almost universal assent of the English people,
that they would only make matters worse by ince, feriug,
had left things to themselves ; and he could not help feel-
ing that the same course would be the best they could adopt
with regard to Poland. (Cheers.) Looking at the exceeding
difficulty of theca's, and at the calamities that would einue
from a war—at the certainty that if the liame were woee
kindled it would soon extend over a large portion of the
world, and at the extreme uncertainty whether the moat
successful war would lead to any good result to Poland, and
whether it would be posnble in any case to organise there a
stable and really independent government—looking at the
one side of the case and at the other, he did most cordially
concur in tLe opinion upraised by his noble Mend the
Secretary of State, that this was not a matter for an armed

intervention. (Cicala.)
Earl RUSSELL did not complain of his noble friend for
bringing forward the question, nor for the tone sad temper
in which he had treated it. But the question was one in
which hor Majesty's government were acting in concert
with the governments of France and Austria, who would
necessarily have to be consulted in regard to any ulterior
steps that might be taken. He admitted that this was not
• case for armed intervention, and that such • proceeding
would be more likely to produce fresh calamities than
put an eta to those which already existed ; but be
denied that simple diplomatic action need lead to war,
or that the remonstrances and good advice which this
country had offered to Russia could produce my evil re-
sults. The course which her Majesty's government bad
punned was this the first place they entsied into
communications with Fiance, which had always displayed
• warm sympathy with the wrongs of Poland; and also
with the government of Austria. which was strongly in
favour of ruling its Polish subjects with as much regard as
possible for their nationality, their religious opinions, sod
their habits and customs. In conjunction, therefore, with
these two powers, her Idejesty's government submitted six
propositions to Russia, which provided for an armistice, and
would, if accepted, secure for Poland national Matto-
tioa, and • national representation. Further than this,
they could do nothing. They) could neither aseist the
Poles tiv force of arms, nor propose terms to Hubei* for the
recognition of the independence of Poland. If anything
was obtained for the Poles, then, it would be the result of
the force of reason and representations of what upon prin-
ciples of honesty and good faith was demanded from Russia.
He could not say what the answer of Russia would be, or
what course after receiving that answer it would be the duty
of her Majesty's government to pursue. Everything de-
pended upon the answer itself, and the spirit io which the
proposals of the western power were received. He regretted
to say that the appointment of General Mouravieff and the
decrees issued by that of were not favourable to the hope
that the Emperor of Ramis would act • liberal and generous
part towards Poland.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the noble earl avowed that
armed intervention wee oat of the question, and he did so
at • moment when the Russian government was deciding
what answer it should give to the six propositions.
Earl RUSSELL —The Russian government has already
decided. The despatch will be sent out tomorrow morning.
Lord BROUGHAM said his noble friend stated that the
despatch would leave —St. Petersburg he presumed—to-
morrow mornio; but he took it for greeted that what
that night in their lordships' house would reach St.
cared
Petersburg before the answer of the Russian government
was decided upon. (Hear, hear.) The notice given of
what would take plane that night must have reached Si.
Petersburg several days ago, and the Russian government,
acting prudently, had in all probability delayed their answer
to the propositions until they heard what occurred. But
whether they did or not be agreed with his noble friend
that an armed intervention was out of the question. An
armistice had also been talked of, but he considered that if
Ramie agreed to an armistice she would give op everything
and receive nothing. An armistice would put • stop to
the whole proceedings of Russia, and give a decided and
complete advantage to the Poles. He therefore
animated that, however much it might be desired,
he had not the least expectation that Russia would consent
to so armistices. This difficulty belonged to the whole no-
gotiatious in regard to Poland. With whom were they to
negotiate on the part of the Poles? What authority on
the part of the Poles was to come forward to accept any
proposition or to offer any, and above all to give a guarantee
that such an armistice, if granted, would be observed?
Though be admitted we could not talk of offensive opera-
tions, et he held that defensive measures were necessary •
and; he confessed he heard with great astonishment anti
regret that in some most highly respectable quartets
objection wee taken to the expense et such measures as
needless expense, bemuse there was no danger of our being
attacked. A man, however, did not insure his house be-
cause he expected • fire, bat as a protection to himself
against lose in cams such an event should take place either
from the negligence of his neighbours or other causes.
The Earl. of DERBY—I confess, my lords, I seldom hear
the question of Poland approached without very conside-
rable reluctance; and for my own part I have aid= or
ever taken stliutrt in the debates. I say I approach the
subject with admire, because our judgment and our feel-
ings upon it are brought into painful and dangerous conflict.
(Hear, hear.) It is impossible not to feel the
warmest admiration at the manner in which this
struggle has been conducted by a brave and generous
people suffering- under • painful sense of their oan deno-
tionality, if I may use the word, and suffering also under a
feelicg of oppression by • foreign government. It is impas-
sable not to admire the gallantry, firmness, perseverance,
and desperate courage with which, against odds incalcula-
ble, they have sustained, for so many years, what they
have believed to be the:cause of their noun ;
but, on the other band, 1 never approach a de-
late of this kind without thinking and without
fearing that language held in this house and elsewhere, will
quite unintentionally do much more injury to that gallmit
people then it can possibly do good - that, may arouseinthein
expectations and hopes cit external assistance, and may lead
to • belief in an intervention, seined or unarmed, to
secure for them that which I may say is the dream
of Poland, namely, the reatoratioo of her nationality ;
and that the hopes and expectations so raised
may lead to the continuance of • desperate struggle only
to subject them to deeper mortification and despondency
when they shall find that such hopes and expectations had
so real foundation. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I confess I
was somewhat surprised at the willingness which the noble
earl (Earl Ritual) expressed to enter into the discus-
sion at this moment, because it did sppear to me
amast inopportune moment for thediscussion of Nadia ques-
Roe. Propositions have been submitted by the government
for the consideration of Ramie ; we are expecting the answer
to those propositions ; sod it is impossible but that that
answer may he materially affected by the language held in
this debate, on the one side or the other. On the one side,
Russia might be justly irritated by language in this Louse
holding forth the intervention of England with its armed
forte, and in conjunction with its allies, to force upon
Russia a course of policy of which she disapproved. On the
other hand, • declaration that no possible circurn-
staacee will induce us to interfere except by diplomatic
representation., might induce Russia to,be more strenuous in
her opposition to the proposals of her Majesty's go/en-
meet than she would be in the absence of each • declara-
tion. Whateyeedelicacy I might have felt, however, in
mime/nog my opinion, ham be entirely removed by the
declaration of her Majesty's government—the clear and ex-
plicit declaration that, whatever may be the answer
of Russia, Poland cannot expect, for the seta-
bhibroent of her liberties, the armed interven-
tion of this country. (Hear, beer.) If her Nit-
, jeaty's government %hist it consistent with their duty,
, in the present state of affairs, to make that declaration,
' I can have no hesitation in expressing my entire corcur-
mos in that policy— icheerel—and my conviction, room-
, over, that it is the deliberate intention and determination
of this country that it will not willingly and know-
ingly lie drawn into hostilities for the purpose of the
maintenance of the liberties of Poland. (Hear.) Now,
. that being the case, I contemn I look with some apprehension
at the pounds consequence. 4:4 the course which her
Majesty's government have taken. The noble earl (Earl
Russell) sees before him clearly the difficulties which sur-
round any attempt at negotiation ; and what I apprehend,
and what is I have no doubt the apprehension of
the noble earl who introduced the question, is that,
although this country and her Majesty's government are
determined that they will not be drawn into • war in con-
. sequence of these representatioas, yet that gradually the
effect of our diplomatic negotiations may be to lead to such
disagreements and such complications that, in spite of our-
selvee, as was undoubtedly the case with regard to the
Crimean war, we may be drawn into war sooner or
later on this subject. It is quite possible,
too, that this country may be dragged into
• war not for the sake of Poland. but as against Poland.
You impose certain conditioaltio Russia, and you impose the
same conditions on Poland. and in the event of those condi-
tions being found impracticable, Rama is to have a right
to my, " You compelled me to give these guarantees and
make these promises, I have adhered to them ; I do not ask
for your direct intervention, but I have • right to claim
your moral influence and your moral force. But the danger
which suggests itself is this :—when you agreed to take
• the first step in diplomacy and sent these six propositions,
did you come to an understanding as to what course you
should pursue in the event of the acceptance or rejection of
your proposals? It is important that you should not take
one step without having well considered its consequences. It
I is in that manner that we are drawn into complications and
into was. I have not a word to say if the able earl can
mum me that France, Austria, and England are perfectly
agreed oo the course to be pursued in the alternative of the
rejection of the proposals made to Russia. But if, on the
other head, there is no such agreement, and the matter is to
be left to the discretion of the separate Dego-
Slakes, then I say the noble earl has entered
as improvident course, and it is impossible for
bias to foresee what European complications may arise.
Earl GRANVILLE said it was at least highly improbable
that the Russian government, after having invited as to in-
terchange ideas with them upon a specified basis, should
turn round as soon se those ideas were communicated
and say they would not entertain them. Another
observation of the noble eal's was that he wished to know
whether the government bad already consulted with our
alkalis to what steps were to be taken &Rettig answer from
Russia bed arrived. Now, he (Earl Granville) could not
conceive an ything so improvideat as to enter into fixed agree.
meats with the governmeets of other countries whilst we
were in perfect iguana°, cd what the answeed the &mien

government would be. The Russian government might reply
111 perfectly good faith. It might assent to some of the
points and reject others; orit might take a line leading solely
to delay, but it would be extremely unwise in to to decide
upuo a amuse of motion before we had the facts
thoroughly before us. (Neer, hear.) To desl with eir-
curnstaticee and facts as they arose must, he thought,
be the 0011 wise policy of • governmeot, whoever might be
in office. The noble earl laid great stress oo the que.stion
of the proposed armatice. But there wee no each thing as
an "armistice" to be found in the despatch. The phrase
simply was a "suspension of hostilities." The noble earl
hail put it as if this were a sine qua nu o. the part of her
Majesty's government. But what his noble friend intended
was, to endeavour, for the sake of the tranquillity of Poland,
as for am possible to briog about the suspension of hostilities,
and he thought that for such an end no means ought to be
neglected. It bad been said that this would not only be
oot very easy, but that it was impossible. But the soble
earl said that such a suspension would be entirely is favour
of Russia., whereas the noble and loused lord was of opi-
nion that it would be against the interest of Rivals. 0 the
truth lay half way between these extremes the thing would
not be impossible, and although this war in Poland wu •
guerilla warfare, their lordships knew it was under a general
direction, and if that general direction chose to put a stop
to hostilities it would be perfectly possible to do so, and thus
put an end to those miserable atrocities and bloodshed
which were exasperated by the cruelties which prevailed on
both sides. The amnesty wu very different. In
that case the Russian Emperor called upon the
Poles to lay down their arms without conditions
of any kind. He thought that the debate had
been carried on in a manner singularly creditable to the
bout, acid notwithstanding the difference which prevailed
in several of the views expreered, the effect of it would be
to atonable noble friend in carrying out successfully these
difficult and delicate negotiations. (Hear.)
The Marquis of OLANRIOARDE said be thought it was
inexpedient to announce at the commencement of a negotia-
tion that we were resolved not to go to war in any event,
and he thought that if on a former 00CIIIi011 Lord Aberdeen
bad made a precisely contrary declaration, we might have
I avoided being led into hostilities at all.
- • • • • -

Tha Duke of ARGYLL said he wished to correct an erro-
reous view which was entertained in supposing that the late
Lord Aberdeen bad ever said that nothing should induce
him to go to war in behalf of Turkey.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that Load Aberdeen
had been represented to say that nothing should induce him
to go to war under any circumstances.
The Duke of ARGYLL said be believed Lord Aberdeen
bad never said that. On the contrary, Lord Aberdeen
fully ackaow'edged that circumstances might arias which
might force him or any other minister to go to war for the
lake of the honour of the country. He (the Duke of Ar
gyll) maintained that unless the government were prepared
to follow the advice of the noble earl (Grey), and do abso-
lutely nothing, they could not have done otherwise than
take their stand, as they had done, upon the basis of the
trash of Vienna.
" '

The Earl of LIARROWBY agreed that it would have
been ignominious, and, indeed,impomible for her Majesty's
government to have kept silence. No ministry could have
held its tongue while the heart of the nation was thrilling
with emotion. He confessed be was now sanguine as to
the course adopted by the government ; but be must can-
didly confess that he did not see say other that they could
have taken ;and he trusted that it would at least tend to
mitigate the abominable tyranny of which Russia bad been
guilty.
Earl RUSSELL said that the government bad no dee.
patches which they could produce. When the answer of
Russia was received it would be laid on their lordship' table
by her Majesty's command.
Earl GREY, after this statement, would, of course, with-
draw his motion.

DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LAND
(IRELAND) BILL.
This bill pared through committee.
- PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.

.
time.
This bill was read a second me. .
METROPOLIS TURNPIKEftpADS ACTS AMEND-

This bill pawed through committee.
SIR It N. MITCHAM'S CHARITY BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
RUTHIN CHARITIPS BILL.
This bill weed through oommittes.
POLIeE AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND)
(PROVISIONAL ORDERS) BILL.
This bin passed through committee.
COLONIAL LETTERS PATENT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and pawed.
'POOR-LAW BOARD CONTINUANCE BILL.
This bill was read a third time sad pared.
LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
This bill was reads third time and pared.
Their lordship* nee at 10 misntea ill 9.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-MONDAY, JULY 13.

The Strata took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUBINESA

The Lowestoft Water, Gas, and Market Bill wee read •
third time and passed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.

The Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod (Colonel Clifford)
appeared at the table and summoned the house to the
House of Lords to hear the royal went gives by commis.
sion to several bills (for which see Lords' report).

BATTERIES AT BOMARSUND.

/Ir. R. LONG asked the First Lord of the Treunry
whether the government had received any information of
the reconstruction by Ramie of the batteries at Bomarsund ;
and, whether they had forwarded any remonstrance to the
&laden government on the =West.
Hr. LAY ABD—I beg to say that the government has
so information upon the subject. (Hear, bear.)