The Express.
London, England, 1852-05-18 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 18, 1852.

lie. BRIGHT said the oath to be taken by the militia,
under the 6111 Oeo. 111., obliged the men to swear that
they would serve in any part of the United Kingdom.
Under this oath they might raise &d,OOO militia in England
and Wales, egad them to Ireland to foal the duties of the
=solslien there, and send the regular soldiers to the
er elsewhere. lie believed that that oath was cen-
tury to the spirit is which the Militia Bill was originally
prom:med.
Mr. WALPOLE said when the Interchange Act passed
Ow militia of England could be sent to Ireland, and that of
Ireland to England. It would be impossible to alter that,
fur the militia law of Ireland was in force, and might be
brought into operation. It did not necessarily follow that
the men would be sent to Ireliad.

Mr. BRIGHT said the words in the former act were that
the militia might be called out fur the suppression of rebel-
lion. They had omitted that in the ',resent bill. If there
was to be a militia, he thought it ought to be convened from
all parts of the kingdom.
Viscount PALMERSTON hoped that the government
would not accede to the proposition of the hon. gentleman.
The militia of each island was originally limited to service
within it ; but the object of the force was not to put down
insurrection, but to defend the country, and it was found
greatly inconvenient that the Irish militia should be con-
fined to Ireland, and the British militia to Great Britain.
Parliament, therefore, deliberately determined that each
militia should be liable to serve in every part of the
United Kingdom in which its service should Ise required.
(Hear, hear.) Ile certainly could not admit that because
the government did not at this time think fit to raise a force
lin Ireland, the militia raised in England should be pre-
vented from going over to Ireland in case that part of the
United Kingdom should be in danger. In fact, he thought
there could not be a stronger reason for continuing the lia-
bility to serve in Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. R. PECIIELL hoped that there would be a
militia neither in England nor Ireland.
Mr. BRIGHT said the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton seemed to be able to force the government to do
anything; but he (Mr. Bright) did not wish him to
force the government to extend the militia to Scot-
land and Ireland. Ile did, however, hope the noble
lord would support him in his proposition, that the oath
should not be so constructed as to force men hangnail in
England to serve in Ireland and Scotland.
Mr. WALPOLE thought the clause necessary.
After a brief conversation,
In answer to Mr. BIRN AL,
Mr. BRIGHT would move that the oath which was pre-
scribed in the 42. ad Geo. 111. (the act of 1802) should be
substituted for that in the 54th of Geo. 111. (the act of
1811), though he would have preferred an oath referring
only to England and Wales.
After a few words from the Arrorneee-GeNzuvi and
Mr. M. Glean sLord J. RUSSELL said that when the militia was
embodied the government would be able, in case of neces-
sity, to remove it to any part of the United Kingdom. lf,
however, such a necessity should arise, he supposed that
there would be also an embodied militia in Ireland,w here the
militia was raised by voluntary enlistment at the beat of the
drum. There would thus be no difference in the position
of the two countries. (Hear.)
Viscount PALMERSTON believed that no act was
necessary to raise a militia by voluntary enlistment in Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) He knew that during the war the
Irish militia was raised by volunteering, and he should
rather apprehend that the act being still in force' no change
in the law was necessary there as in England. The object
of the clause was merely to make volunteers liable to the
same extent of service as the balloted men. (Bear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT would not trouble the house to divide ;
but he thought that upon the constitutional question he
had the best of tbo argument. (Laughter.)
The clause was then agreed to, as was clause 15.
In clause 16, which authorises a ballot, where men can-
not be raised by voluntary enlistment, the blank was filled
up with " the 31st of December," and some verbal altera-
tions were made.. . . .

On the words" shall be raised by ballot,"
Mr. CHARTERIS said he had no wish to waste the
time of the committee, by urging general arguments against
the bill. As the government bed consented not to enforce
the compulsory clauses till after the new parliament had had
an opportunity of expressing its opinion thereon, they had
done well ; but he thought it would have been still better
to omit these clauses altogether. Their retention destroyed
the popularity of the bill, and might endanger its passing.
It was out of no factious spirit that he moved this
amendment, but solely from a desire to give greater effi-
ciency to the measure. He moved the omission of the
words " shall be raised by ballot."
Mr. WALPOLE said Assuming that the com-
mittee had already approved of 50,000 as proper number
to be raised in the first year, they must adopt means to
secure that result. There were two inducements to volun-
tary enlistment—one the bounty ; the other, the fear of the
ballot having to be resorted to in any parish, and the come-
quent expense. Hence the compulsory clauses gave greater
forte to the voluntary ones.
Mr. PETO earnestly entreated the government to omit
thews words.

Mr. EWART was confident that the compulsory clauses
would be most odious to the people.
Mr. W. J. FOX said he must bear his testimony to the
unpalatable nature of these clauses to the people generally.
Mr. HUDSON said he had hitherto supported this mea-
sure ; but he felt perfectly confident the force would be
rimed by the voluntary clauses, and the compulsory ones
were therefore unnecessary. His constituents were unani-
mous in condemning that part of the measure. Though
he had supported the bill all along, relying on the informa-
tion possessed by the two governments, he did not think
there wee any pressing necessity for it atter all. 110 would
rather's* the standing army increased, if additional force
were necessary. He hoped the government would abandon
these highly unpopular clauses.
The ATTORNEY-OENERAL said the argument was
so clear in favour of these clauses, that the committee could
not do otherwise than support them. He contended
that the bill would be imperfect unless, in providing for
the defences of the country, they took are to do it efil-
ciently.
After some discussion, intermingled with cries of
Divide", a division took place.
For Mr. Charteris's amendment llO
Against 127

Majority against the amendment.... 17
Mr. HUME suggested that the government having suc-
ceeded in carrying this important, bat most unpopular,
part of the bill by so inconsiderable a majority, ought not
to Insist on retaining it.
Mr. MITCHELL said that on the bringing up of the
report, be sheald sieve that no substitutes be allowed, in
order that has. gentlemen who were drawn by ballet slight
themselves line an opportunity of defending the erantry.
Mr. W. Z. FOX then rtes Waken a prows teas alms_ ,
to the Area that those who possessed tie ftenehise sesuld
be the paw tailed on to serve in the .11th. This pow
VIM was Os same in pH:wales the ebues tibia had hen
saanwooll sad withdraw* no Mint gmallossma the
fkantrwy Beats for Mom Deportsmat The
iMtlie.panwww, _although he withdrew that dame, had
sat osanassil aulpie, sad that which he (Mr. Fox)
wow puspord woo a same monnana of that pentiplo.
Mara Ia 'S he
dams who wan to he
alairto erne M sand% he tins& that popsept the
habits, tits sattews, 11111 0011101111.• et lia• Pula
different peals et the sowney, mad the pommedisa w tee
fraashin *pull be Inn be mossan so ordl as the sea
Ibm dlllwast sowslass sad damp. In the
Vitra Below pedal thobliklarras sight of War-
saw ins anomstai win is pinta et duswil4
so his mesa en no Monist piantni.f jaAlia,
Oho PAW* that lbws Ihmends who we hoped is
polo of is osamillatisa, sail whom in nismaro no ant
sosephisi. amid be esengan bon thec=feigebeadz
Inn Then sun is this awstry a
g=mtioily sigommas who &Paid. eenikanerly,sa
porads, to military Benin The
ohs.W maid beats. one of noises and
siemder haulthlk. Sash wouolsld be the teeing of the
gw
swasary poonliy. TM po nk he
nom ma oppotirwity,hy whisk
the of
iklaaataieetjtnay wit pososniog the et
assosisan lea. number sswiadsd le
Wan be no dens a pone, to Am ulna as puma
shad be Yetis to sompassoy Winn nowise when awn
b amt MB nglinlima Yea so mann kw solos borough,
nee. \Mil said be as two grounds enwhisk*. him patlemea palp lb proviso wen thous :
Flea, that everybody who en ahe osaipsiin to sans
s hand love the right, seta skims ankrred ups him ;
lug siesailly, that any who IMlertslaid stassium.
tins menu against asedso4shiald ho aimed to
amp ow sabwittiag to taw pad* ditgusMilostima Ise
ths &within Now, the tonna ',Wars tho sights et a
than should always masa to Own who won to
serve, was sudden' a wadi kips no that be db.
sawn la win lb. Inns NIL It must
be dissassol so part of • past aussenn, mad.ft.tat
amides valor what oiromisman with what
as to reeinsso, payment ot town or otherwise:ll=ere
feet amnia( in a
wilids has Mudd entitle a ma a vote
pa a esesey bucaugtu. The spostioa huhs no
gin
ilmak pont wend be to sinew no at no
=mod to dm arm op a pans st dos ommanny, 6s
st dm gnat bun of ths pgabli
pepsinma, the
s& th daty of
gumbo m It was so smokes a at
WPM it wield wit meet with the w.sesaa et the
honk Win= to the inet thous who had amoden
oserlag la a who
tho lum. wean-
tisulillaroar nod Oat no pislisa whisk le had
meld me • musk paw in Asa send be mottled by
this prone. If the ~au emanated to it
went to this *Oct, that every paws who to nib-
buy owns had a right to say that he well anseatrnate
to that envier, either by prosaal salistamak or by_ ths
payment of any tax for the sitgon millkus. (lieu,
hear.) No person could say that he had seassioatioas
seraphs pint serving himself is the army or the militia
who would sot say at the IMO time that he conacientiovely
objected to the application at any part of his means te the
enabling others to do what he soasidlered rastramy to the
law of God. Ile could nott therefore, nom the proviso.
After a few words from Mr. Mowcrr and the 0130171•11
)II•Holf,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that, with
to the proviso of the honourable member fir;vs=
Old-
ham, he (the Attorney General) could not agree to
it, because it would make a most invidious distinction be-
tween different classes. Every subject was interested in
the defences of the country, and the proposal must there-
fore raise the inference, that only those persons who were
entitled to vote for the election ola member of parliament
are fit to be entrusted with the defence of the country.
The objection which had been urged by his right boo.
friend (Air. Walpole) was also of importance. If the pro-
viso were adopted it would narrow the soma from wkiok

those persons who were to serve in the militia were to be
taken. (Hear' hear.) The hon. member for Oldham had
put forward as a reason for asking the committee to assent
to his motion the conscientious objections entertained by
many persons to all kinds of military *mice. Ho (the
Attorney-Genenl) could not see bow the proviso would
touch them, or how they would be relieved by the pews-
sion of the franchise. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FOX explained that his object was, that any person
liable to serve, and entertaining conscientious objections,
might, by forfeiting his qualification, be released from the
liability.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, with all due respect,
must say, he did not think it would be reasonable or desir-
able to allow persons to escape the service required for the
defence of the country in each a manner. Many persons
might have equally conscientious objections to the payment
of the public tasu—(" hear," and a laugh) ;—or to any
other of the duties of a citizen. (Item-, hear.)
Mr. lIIJME objected to the proviso as it then stood, and
recommeudet the boo. memb.•r fur Oldham to alter it so
that it should run as follows: "That every man that shall
be drawn by ballot, and shall serve in the militia, shall be
entitled to have his name inscribed on the list of electors
in the borough or county where he resides."
Alter some observations from the O'Goun.tw Mattos
and Mr. PACKZ,
Mr. FOX, alter the opinions ermined by these from
whom he had expected support, should not press his pro.
vise, bat begged leave to withdraw it. (Hear.)
Mr. H. GIBSON asked whether the government would
lay upon the table of the house a list of the general exemp-
tions ? _ .

Mr. Secretary WALFOLE said that the government had
carefully considered the subject, and he would willingly
afford the information required. The exemptions were to
be as follows :-1. Peers who were doing their duty in the
other house of parliament. 2. Persons serving in the other
knees of the country. 3. Officers on half-pay. 4. Com-
mhnioned officers serving or having served four years in
the militia. 5. Resident marten in the universities. 6.
Clergymen, 7. Persons licensed to preach or teach (the
right hon. gentleman was not quite clearly heard in the
gallery.) 8. Constable' or police officers. 9. Articled clerks
or apprentices. 10. l'aid seamen and seafaring men. 11.
Persons emp'oyed in the dockyards and ordnance gun-
wharves. 12. Persons free of the company of watermen ;
and 13, any poor man who has more than one child borne
in wedlock.

Mr. M. GIBSON could not Pee why peen should be ex•
empted or allowed to escape the payment for a substitute.
The duties of the other house were nut so severe as those
required from members of that house. lie thought that
the peers ought not to be exempt, and he should take the
sense of the house upon the subject. The right hon.
gentleman proposed to exempt paupers as well as peers.
What did he mean by a poor man ? What was the degree
of poverty required ?
A 110 N. MEMBER—A day labourer.

Mr. GIBSON—Then a day labourer was the poor man,
and all day labourers who had one child born in wedlock
were to he exempted. Then, as to tho Watermen's Com-
pany ; why, the watermen were almost extinguished by the
steamers, and the exemption should be applicable to en-
gineers and stokers. The government was legislating in the
spirit of the days of George 111. There ought to be an op-
portunity given by which the question of exemptions
should be submitted to the house, and the sense of the
house taken on it. Then, again, with regard to resident
members of the universities. Why should they be ex-
emoted ? Could not they purchase substitutes ? Did the
exemption apply to all universities? In order to give the
home an opportunity of expressing an opinion on this sub-
ject, he would suggest that the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary for the Home Department should move to repeal
the exempting clauses of 42 George 111., and bring up •
clause containing such exemptions as tho government
thought ought at present to exist.
Mr. WALPOLE said that if any hon. member thought
that exemptions should be added to or taken away from
those now proposed, it was in his power to move a proviso
to that effect, and take the sense of the house upon it.
Mr. BRIGHT asked the right hon. gentleman if he would
consent to bring up a clause, showing that he was prepared to
recon eider the question of exemptions, leaving out those
which could not be defended nod adding such as the house
would consent to, for be (Mr. Bright) did not think there
should be no exemptions, though those which at present
existed required correction.
Mr. WALPOLE thought it would be the best course for
any gentleman who wished to make any exemptions, to
move • clause containing such exemptions. He would not
say that the government would not consider the present
exemptions, although ha thought good reasons could be
given tor them.
Colonel THOMPSON suggested that members of the So-
ciely of Friends should be exempted.
The proviso was then by leave withdrawn.

Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY moved a proviso that " no
married man be drawn by ballot, and no unmarried men,
except beteeentheagesof 20and25. Ho would not enter into
a lengthened statement, but the basis of his motion wa.,
that as there were 8,753,000 mules in England, of whom
800,000 were b:tween 20 and 25, and deducting the mar-
ried men from that number, there would be 'bunt 600,000
from which men might be drawn.
After some discussion, the committee divided:
For tho amendment 153
Against it

Mr. M. GIBSON they moved the addition of a proviso
to exempt schoolmasters and teachers in schools.
Mr. WALPOLE said the exemptions had better come at
the end of clause IS, and If the right hon. gentleman would
agree to that, he would then state what his views were re-
s pectin
Mr. GIBSON said if the right hon. gentleman would
submit a list of all the exemptions ho proposed, so that
they might have an opportunity of considering them, and
whether any additions should be made to them, he would
agree to the proposal, otherwise he could not see but that
this was the proper time to press this proviso.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they
proposed exactly the same exemptions as in the act of .12
Geo. 111., but further exemptions were proposed, and in
reference to that he said as a general principle ho was
opposed to exemptions and should oppose increasing them,
and when a fair opportunity occurred for discussion the
government we e not indisposed to consider the exemp-
tions in the act revived by the present bill, and
if any objections could be raised to the objec-
tions therein contained they would consider them.
He gave in his full adhesion to the principle of compro-
mises, and he was quite convinced that without that prin-
ciple nothing ever would be carried in the House of Com-
mons.
The committee divided—

For the proviso B6
Against it
_ _

Mr. pi. OIDSON then moved the following proviso
" Provided that no peer of this realm shall be exempted
from serving in the militia raised by this act, anything in
the first recited act or any other act notwithstanding."
(Loud laughter and cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
. .

all these exemptions were of considerable date. They had
been adopted after much experience, and were not to be
terminated in this crude manner. lie should therefore

oppose the proviso. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT defended the proviso. Surely it could
not be any indignity to the house of peers to be put upon
the same footing with the members of this house ? (Cheers.)
' He trusted the house would have spirit enough to assert its
own privileges. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to
the right hon. gentleman suddenly introducing a proposi-
tion of this description. The hon. member for Manchester
had elude some claptrap observations about members of this
home being entitled to the same privileges as the House of
Peen. But this question did not rise on the privileges of
the umbers of this house. (Hear, hear.) This was a
prisilep which incidentally belonged to the peerage, with
may others nut connected with parliament. For instance,
posse were exempted from serving on juries), which mem•
bon of this house were not. (Cries of lies they are.")
At all events, they were only exempted during the sitting
of the house, bet peers were exempt at all times. (Hear,
hear.) The right hon. gentleman and his friends had
issisil the pager with notices of amendments, and he
ought she to have given notice of this proviso if he had in-
lemded to move it. (Cheers.)
Mr. M. GIBSON denied that he had taken the right hon.
gentlemen by imprimis. He was only following the course
which the government hsd”inted ost to him.
Viscount PALMS RBTM reminded the house that the
ballot mai MSS lake plum dB the beginning of next year
at the sentiset; WI mist miss they were to have a con-
solidated bill susaitimi to them. DI would be better to
reserve all these exemptions until them. (Cheers.)
The committee divided—
For the proviso
Against IO3
Majority against —as
Mr. WAKLEY moved a proviso examidwg physicians,
and surgeons, and other legally qualified members of the
medical profession." He proposed this on public as much
as on professional grounds—on the ground that human life
was in question
Mr. WALPOLE objected for the same reasons token by
the government in regard to the previous proviso.
Colonel SIBTHORP wanted to know if the hon. mem-
ber (Mr. Wakley) was going to exempt quack doctors ?
(Laughter.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) hated quacks as be
did the devil. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. WAKLEY informed the gallant °Meer that the
legally qualified " only were sought to be exempted.
The committee again divided—
For the exemption
Against
On our re-admission to the gallery,
Mr. I'ETO was addressing the house, moving, an it was
understood, an exemption in favour of the Society of
Friends. He stated that a brother of the hon. member for
Leicester (Mr. Ellis) had suffered several years' imprison-
ment on scoount of his refusal to serve in the militia.

Col. BIBTHORP having indulged the committee with a
tirade against quaker',
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER referred to
a clause in the 61 Oeorip 111., by which gushers were per-
mitted to provide substitutes. In default of doing no, they
might be imprisoned; but the government thought this was
not in accordance with the spirit of the age, and they
had intended bringing in a proviso to that effect. The go-
vernment could nut support the proposal of the hon. mem-
ber, seeing no reason why the Quakers should be wholly
exempt.
Mr. BRIGHT said ho had intended moving a proviso.
By the former act the deputy-lieutenants were empowered
to provide substitutes for Quakers and distrain on them;
where no distraint could be made imprisonment followed.
It was not at all probable that any member of the society
of friends would conceal his property ; and where impn-
gasolene had been suffered it had been Won't poverty.

If. had proposed to mow" a proviso to the effect that so
much of the 42 Oeo. 111. as authorised Quakers to be COM.
mitted•to gaol should be repealed.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'mid the
object of the government woe to make a proviso whereby
Quakers would not he in a wore* position with regard to
providing substitutes in the militia than they were with re-
spect to church rata. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ELLIS said his brother was =apprentice when he
was ballotted. His father, having conscientious objections,
would net provide him a lb uhstitute, and the result was, he
was committed to Northallerton House of Correction.

The amendment was then withdrawn.
Mr. J. HEYWOOD proposed that the resident gra-
duates of the university of Durham should be placed on the
same touting as those of Oxford end Cambring.•.
After a conversation, in which Mr. 1::%‘ AILT and others
took part,

Mr. M. GIBSON objected to the ballotted men being
called on to take an oath. The volunteers might do ft ii
they chose' but to compel those who were balloted to do so
was little short of blasphemy. (Cheers and " !") Ile
contended that such an oath was not binding, and could
not be supported in a court of justice. having been imposed
under duresse. (Hear, hear.) Of the MO desertions of
which Mr. Hodges had spoken, probably the majority had
coiled Clod to witness that they would serve faithfully.
Ile moved the omission of that part of the clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the Exc.:lime:lilt said the

observations applied not only to the militia, but to every
oath taken in a court of justice. (Hear, hear.) Ile there-
fore hoped the committee would not bo led, at that boor,
into so wide a discussion. (Hear, bear.)
Sir P. WOOD said that he should support the proviso
proposed the right hon. gentleman.
1 he committee divided—

For the proviso 79
Against it

Mr. VIAKLEY said that he felt that the clause was not
sufficiently discussed. (" Oh, oh.") It should be recol-
lected that the dame contained the compulsory power—a
cr gr
wt4.7,ton,
considerationero so strenuouslyofwhi
ch the noble lord the mem-
supported the govern-
ment on this hill, declared might be postpvned. lie should
therefore move that the chairman report progress. (Hear,
and " Oh, oh.")

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think that the hon. gentleman and his friends would risk
the house to divide after the number of hours which had
been spent in the discussion of the clause. (Hear, beat.)
He did not see how the government could be accused of
prolonging the session if an opposition of this nature were
persevered in. (Hear, hear.) He should oppose the mo-
tion.

Mr. BOUVERIE said that he should sup; ort her Ma-
jesty's government in opposing any further postponement of
the clause. (Hear.)
Mr. I)RIGHT did aot intend that they should spend
another night in the discussion of the clause, but that they
should take a division upon it—not at a perio I when the
house might be favourable to their hors, but when it was
fresh. (Laughter.)
The house then divided—

For reporting progress
Against it
On returning to the gallery, we found Mr. W. WIL-
LIAMS moving that the chairman do leave the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sur-
mised at such a motion, considering the unmistakeable
manner in which the committee had expressed its opinion.
However the opposition might delay It, the bill would be
come law. (Cheers.)
Strangers were ordered to withdraw.
On the re-admission of strangers the motion was with-
drawn without a division ; and, the 16th clause having
panisd, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave
for the committee to sit again on Thursday next.
The Nisi Fritts Odious Bill and the Burgh Harbours
(Scotland) (No. 2) Bill were read a second time.
The Ecclesiastical Courts Criminal Jurisdiction Bill
passed through committee pro forma.
COUNTY COURTS FURTHER EXTENSION (COM-

PENSATIOSS, &c.).
The house, in committee of the whole house, passed a
resolution empowering payment of compensations for abo-
lished edicts.