The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-07-20 00:00:00

remove the steamers front the Collingwood Dock, and
make that a loading dock for the Stanley Dock, which
it naturally ought to be—which the harbour-master
recommended it should be—which the Warehouse Com-
mittee had recommended the Docks and Quays Com-
mittee to carry out ; but which it was found hopeless
to do. With regard to those two trades, neither one
nor 4nother could derive the slightest benefit from
Birkenhead. The steam interest declared that they
would not go to Birkenhead at any price, nor on
any terms; and with regard to American ships, they
would never go, unless they could induce the importers
of cotton and corn to take deliveries of their cargoes in
Birkenhead. When he heard of that being done, he
should think that there was hope for that concern. (A
laugh.) But, as he did not think that either one thing
or the other was likely at present, he meant to say that
as to ships loading for the United States, the Bir-
kenhead docks would be of any use. He did not mean
to say that American ships would not go to Birkenhead
to load a cargo of Welsh coal for foreign ports ; but as
regarded the foreign trade generally, Birkenhead would
be perfectly useless. Moreover, the trade of the port
had been restricted for the last few years by the effect
of the panic in 1857, and political uneasiness on the
Continent. If they had gone on after 1857, to
increase in the same proportion as they had
done a few years before, and which in a prosperous
state of trade they should still do, he did not know
where the trade of the port could be accommodated ;
and therefore he thought it would be seen that this was
not a light matter—that the necessity for the room
which he asked was knocking at the door, close at hand,
and there was no other means of providing for it. They
must look at the matter fairly, and see what could be
done with it. Now, he knew that there were difficulties
and objections in the way, and he should like to allude
to them. The first that he was told .of was, that the
Birkenhead dock works were not sufficiently advanced—
that Manchester interests were too powerful for t4em-7

that the parties conspiring for the spoliation of
Liverpool would resist unanimously any attempt
they made to provide in Liverpool the accommoda-
tion which Liverpool requires. Now he did not wish
to go more than was necessary into unpleasant
matters, but all the remark he had to make was that at
the least calculation d cue would be three years from

the present time before the accowreedation which he
asked for could be provided. They would biwe to give
the Parliamentary notice next November ; it would be
next Julyibefore the Act could be got through the
House. They would then have to make preparations
for the work ; and the engineer would bear him out
that two years was a short time for their execution.
Therefore, he thought from that day three years such
progress will have been wade with the Birkenhead
works, they would hate the opportunity of seeing
whether they would be used qr net. At events,
there would be no necessity for say anxiety on their
part as to the completion of the works in Liverpool,
unless they were so utterly selfish that they would rather
take the risk of driving trade from the port altogether
than a chance should be lost of driving it to Birkenhead.
The Morpeth Dock was to have been finished by the
30th of June, H. 61. The Float, the engineer told
them, would be six or able months afterwards. That
would be before the works iie spoke of could be well
begun. The new entrances—
The CHAIIINTA-X—Tbe Great Float will be opened at
the end of October this year.
Mr. BOULT said the present entrance to Morpeth-
dock and Egerton-dock would be available for the
passage of ships ; and they all knew that ships of the
largest class could use that entrance. If there were
any trade, they could go ; there would be full scope to
test the value of the Float at Birkenhead, even sup-
posing the other outside works were not finished. But
he would go further, He knew they were under Parlia-
mentary compulsion arid liabiaieh to throw away
many thousands of pounds ; and be said, go on v4tb, all
despatch4to finish the low water basin, though be
thought the sea would have its way, and the basin
would silt up. If the money was to be thrown
into the sea, let it go there ; but that was no
reason why the existing trade of Liverpool was to be
starved and crimped (rORI itAi natural development ; and
he did not think that they should do their duty if they
failed to do for it what they contd. Ike was.,quite pre-
pared to give every undertaking that Parliament might I
require, that the works which remain, ns respected the
low water basin;the entrances to Morpeth Dock, and
the enlargement of Morpeth Dock, should be continued
and carried on as fast as the engineer could. Then he
was told that they had not got the money to spend, but
he did not see why they should not have the power to
spend the mo4ey, and then the public, he believed,
would supply it. There might be changes
required for the timber trade to the nerth of the
the Canada Dock ; but he was satisfied that there
was land on the east side of Regent-road for building
these docks if necessary. The scarcity of accommodation
for American ships cost his own firm hundreds a year;
and 41 in the business suffered alike in proportion to
the wort- w4ieh they Iliad to do. Then in revert to
warehouses, he thought the necessity for increased ware-
house accommodation was as ellyioua as for increased
dock accommodation. The rates for cotton being up to
three times the ordinary amount, certainly warehouses '
should be had. They were told that they had no
money, but they had land which they could lease, and
which parties, he dared say, would be glad to take and
build the warehoes_e accommodation required.. They had
land which was not available for docks, but which would
be readily takeu for warehouses ; and ha thought if they
could not provide accommodation in one way, they should
in another. Let them do something. He believed the
difficulty would increase from day to day, and they
should not sit down inactive under the incubus placed
upon them by the other end of the water. Mr. Boult
concluded by proposing the resolution.
Mr. ROUNTHWAITE Set:PAC:led the motion.
Mr. MONDEL said that if the words " or elsewhere"
were allowed to remain, he should vote against the
motion ; if these words were struck out he should be in
its favour. Although he did not coincide with a great
dtll.ereatlehialteahgdoas,tettraiaMned series contemplated.
Boult had stated, still he thought that
gentleman had shown that there was an absolute neces-
sity for dock accommodation on this side of the river.
ks,
c theolithographedntedmopc
lkatsepdo.
j,pel
f They
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yf oercv.
andu they made
assome
the assertion of the engineer that the docks could be
constructed on the east side of the Huskisson Dock
cheaper than elsewhere— Birkenhead not excepted.
And he believed the revenue from those three docks
would be greater far than that accruing to the estate
from any ordinary source, while the other dock accom-
modation world be considerably relieved,
Mr. SMITH supported the motion, and he did so as it
was altered, for as it appeared on the paper he could
not have supported it ; but he could give the motion
proposing the construction of dock accommodation at
the east side of the Huskisson-dock or elsewhere, his
most decided support. He knew that the east side of
the Huskisson-dock was the place where additional
steam docks will have to be constructed, similar to the
one now being made. That board, in the performance
its duties in time past, felt it necessary to provide at the
north end of the town accommodation for the timber
trade. They had now got the trade located there, and
it would never have been induced to go there, and
would never have been productive, unless the ground on
the east side of the Huskisson Dock had been appro-
priated for that purpose. It had been so appropriated,
and they had not yet completed the expenditure of a
large sum of money, and to attempt to deal with this
matter until they had provided further accommodation
to the northward of the Canada Dock would not be con-
sistent with the character or the board, and could not
be done without injury to the trade of the port. There-
fore that question must be dealt with on some more
general grounds than those which had been suggested
by Mr. Mondel. He perfectly agreed with Mr. Boult
that if they considered the question to-morrow it would
be three, or more than three years before any additional
accommodation could be provided. The only wise and
prudent way, therefore, to deal with the question was to
refer it to the Works Committee to go into an inquiry,
which must at any rate be the fotindation of all. It
appeared to him that when the Works Committee took
the question into consideration they might probably
find it necessary in the first place to .take evidence
with reference to settling certain points which Mr. Boult
had suggested. He (Mr. Boult) had stated that the
steam trade would never go to Birkenhead : he had
stated that the American trade would never go there.
Establish those two circumstances as facts, and the
necessity for instantly considering how additional ac-
commodation is to be provided on this side of the water
would become apparent. Now he believed the Works
Committee would really have to do something in the
way of satisfying themselves. With reference to the
steam trade, it was clear, as Mr. Boult had said, that
they could not accommodate it at this side of the water
without additional dock space. They knew that numerous
steam companies were springing up, which would want
accommodation which it was absolutely impossible to
provide ; and if the steam trade could not go to Birken-
head, they would have to accommodate it on this side of
the water. The duty of that board became, therefore,
imperative. Between that time and November there was
athmaptlaeddtiimtioenatol agcocoillmt
could get the necessary notices; it was quite sufficient
mo
othdaetiinonqumiryus,
s
that Mr. Boult had propounded a case for reference to
tanbde fp
riotviwd ea found
that additional accommodation must be provided they
the Works Committee. And he did not see that it was
possible for anybody, with the evidence as it now stood, to
resist the necessity for referring it to the committee to
inquire into that particular question, It might turn out
that Mr. Maclver and Mr. Inman, probably Mr. Rounth-
waite, and the agents of the ether large companies could
conduct their trade at Birkenhead as conveniently as on
the Liverpool side ; then, there was no necessity for the
expenditure of the money, and if it could be proved he
for one should be very sorry to increase the bonded duty
of the estate by one sixpence. If, on the other hand,
they found that these trades could not be conveniently
conducted at Birkenhead, and that they must and would
have accommodation on this side, then the time had

arrived when it was necessary to take action. Having
asserted that the board had done all they could to com-
ply with the requisitions of Parliament, he concluded
by expressing his intention of voting in favour of the
motion.

Mr. ARNOLD thought the motion was singularly
inopportune, and that motions of that kind, frequently
made, only tended to embarrass the board. It was all
very well for Mr. Boult to ignore Birkenhead, but no
gentleman could say that they could add that immense
acreage of water space which they were providing at
Birkenhead, without giving some relief to the trade on
that side. Therefore he thought that a motion of that
kind, brought forward when they were within a few
months of opening the great float, was singularly
inopportune. He would not force a trade to Birken-
head, but he thought they were doing more than was
necessary in opening those works at Birkenhead ; and
if the trade of the port.of Liverpool is to go on as it
had done, if some part .of that trade did not go to
Birkenhead, the time was not far distant when it would
find a limit. Mr. Boult was like a man who stood at
the door of his shop, which was splendidly furnished,
and yet told people who came to him that he had
nothing to suit. Let them see first what Birkenhead
would do. He thought it was not for members of that
board to be constantly railing at Birkenhead. The
board had agreed to do certain things there, and had no
right to complain, though the ratepayers might do so".
He objected to the motion and should oppose it.
Mr, RANKIN believed it would be injudicious to
apply to Parliament when they had so much work on
hand, both at Birkenhead and on this side the water,
which, with the scarcity of men, was quite certain to
occupy all the attention which Mr. Hartley could give
for at least two years. Even if this were not the case,
it would be injudicious to undertake any more work, as
Parliament would naturally be inclined to check the
application, which, in another year, probably, they
would grant. If the float had been opened for a short
time, that would probably enable them to impress upon
Parliament the necessity cf farther deck accommoda-
tion. It was quite clear, as Mr, Smith had said, that,
before a ship could be put into the Huskisson dock, a
dock to the northward must be prepared to take the
timber vessels which can now be accommodated at the
Canada dock and the Huskisson dock. The circum-
stances would, he thought, be quite sufficient to smother
any application to Parliament ; and the failure of any
nieasnrc which they might bring into Parliament would
throw 04;4 back for two or three years, while, if they
waited one year, their application might successful.
Mr. Foawoon supported the motion of Mr. Boult.
There was nothing more grand than the contemplation
of the immense advance which the port was making
from year to year; and there would be the necessity of
continually going to Parliament for means of extending
their accommodation, and those means would only be
the
,f,tqw)g 5t.01430 to further means of providing for an
increase of trade which it
_should he ph* cieeire to meet
in every possible way. it had been stated that the
revenue increased last year by ;5Q,Q09, 1414 NVo4ici
the interest on £I4OO,QQO, an amount sug;clent to
discharge the expense of the works required, before the
next three years. It was a strong point thrust upon
their attention, that steam-boat owners, when they
knew the dimensions of the docks, ought to build their
boats to suit ; but he would rather see them build the
atea.merc, in proportion to the requirements of the trade
for which ,they were iptTded; and it was the duty of that
estate to loild docki to meet file necessities of the port,
awl to slew Southampton, arid ail other port.;, that Livir-
pool proviclecl accommodation fora trade which was sure
to enlarge. He believed the trade of Liverpool was
destined to increase. Who would have said ten years
ago, that they would have five million bales of cotton in
the port ; and how did they know but that next year the
quantity would increase to five-and-a-quarter millions or
even five-and-a-half million bales. Were they not to
make accommodation for that ? When they had pro-
vicied to the cotton trade, go94s had to be shipped, and
if they did not prOiride acconiniodaiion for iheir exports,
the competition which they were experiencing would
not diminish, but increase, and draw away their exports,
He understood that arrangements were being made for
the building of steam-boats of a size and capacity per-
fectly surprising, and provision must be made for them.
There were two considerable difficulties in the way of
worlx„ingxbra export rad..# at Birkenhead satisfactorily,
and how could they expect spearuer? or American yessels
to frequent that port though their ccitio4 4114 other
cargoes went there, if they could not get export cargoes?
He was not one who opposed Birkenhead, but he would
oppose the construction of works which would hang as
a millstone round the trade of Liverpool. The coal
trade and the timber trade might develop themselves at
Birkenhead ; but however that might be, they were
obliged to go on with the construction of docks on this

Mr. 13ROCKLEBANK could not but say that the ques-
tion was raised at a period very inopportune. Mr.
Boult had altered his motion so as to make the objec-
tions to it much less than they would have been had it
remained in its original form, but at the same time,
they had to consider their position with regard to the
works they had in hand. They were told in the
engineer's report that he had the greatest difficulty in
carrying on those works for the want of masons and
other labourers, and all the labour hp thought that the
engineer could possibly get together in the course of the
next two or three years would be required for the pur-
pose of excavating the great works which they had in
hand. Therefore, he thought it would be undesirable
at the present to attempt to carry out any further
works on this side of the water. He quite agreed
with Mr. Boult that there was a demand upon them
for space for the steam trade, and also for other trades ;
but he Meyer could agree with him when he said that
neither the steam trade nor the American trade would
ever go to Birkenhead. What were they expending
all their money for, if neither of those trades would go
to Birkenhead ? Some part of the trade of Liverpool
must go there, and would go there, if they could main-
tain the water sit feet lower than the dock sill on this
side of the water. The trades would. As for the cotton,
of which Mr. Forwood had spoken, they really could not
provide for every exceptional case, and the recent crop
of cotton was an exceptional case. Next year they might
have a million of bales less. Who would say that the
cotton trade would not go to Birkenhead ? Some of it
had already gone there, and, he had no hesitation in
saying, would continue to go there. American ships
would be glad to get there, especially as many of them took
outward cargoes of salt or coal. (Hear.) And what
would be the chances of success if they went to Parlia-
ment? What was the use going to Parliament unless they
saw their way to getting what they asked for. He did
not think they should go to Parliament, unless they
had that prohability of success, without which they
should never go to Parhanrut. ff they deferred their
application to Parliament for another year then they
might have a better chance of success. They could see
their financial position more clearly than at present,
and would so far have completed the Birkenhead works
that they would begin to show what Birkenhead
could do, and what it is likely to do. And what
was the use of voting money week after week for the
purchase of land, arl4 the bailding of graving docks ut
Birkenhead, if no trade was to go there I It seemed to
him to be perfectly absurd, He agreed with Mr.
Rankin, that if they were to make docks on this side of
the river, the north end was the place, because there
they could obtain the accommodation at the cheapest
rate.

Mr. LAIRD said, that Mr. Boult and several other
gentlemen had asserted, that the American trade and
the steam trade would not go to Birkenhead. Having
had somethinc, to do in Birkenhead for many years, and
with some of the most influential men connected with
the trade of Liverpool he had no hesitation in denying
the statement. Some of the best informed captains who
had come forward to give evidence on the subject had
stated that provided the works were carried out as they
ought to be carried out they would go to Birkenhead.
Some members of the steam trade had told him that
they would go there; but there was another reason why
trade would go there, and that was because vessels
would not be allowed to remain in the river and dis-
charge their cargoes into lighters. and load again from
lighters. The American vessels would not be allowed
to do so, and the American trade and the steam trade
were too keenly alive to their own interests to sacrifice
themselves to gentlemen whose views were prejudiced,
and who, instead of coming to that board to support the
trust to which they were elected, came there to oppose
it in every possible way.
The CHAIRMAN—I do not think you can be allowed
to say this. I must call you to order.
Mr. LAIRD—I think, Mr. Chairman, I ought to call
you to order. You allowed Mr. Boult to talk about
Birkenhead conspirators.
The ClaitanNiAN—l did; but Mr. Boult did not say
those conspirators came to this board to put down Liver-
pool.

Mr. LAIRD said he was quite willing to leave the board
and the public to judge as to the chairman's impartiality,
and to see how he allowed a gentleman on one side to
speak, but stopped one on the other. He would say to
every member of that board that in their private capa-
city no gentleman at that board would dare to repudiate
the agreement they had entered into to complete the
Birkenhead works—an agreement which they had entered
into deliberately, and on the strength of which they had
obtained their Act of Pa►liament. Mr. Hartley had
told them that the works would not be completed at the
time specified, and in answering him the questions
he had asked him, he did not mean to say that
he had not used his best exertions, but his state-
ment showed clearly that the cause of the docks
at Birkenhead not going on faster was the want of labour,
and he found that £138,000 had been abstracted from
the prosecution of the Birkenhead works. The expen-
diture on this side of the water was positively prevent-
ing the Birkenhead works going on. Those gentlemen
who were present when the bill was in committee would
know that Sir Cornewall Lewis would not pass it until
he had the most decided assuranCe from the chairman
that, if he did allow it to pass, it wonlif not at all inter-
fere with the completion of the Birkenhead works. In