The Dorset County Express and Agricultural Gazette.
Dorchester, Dorset, England, 1874-09-15 00:00:00

THE CHARGES OF _ SWINDLING AT

WEYMOUTH.

FURTHER EXAMINATION OF THE

MC.DERMOTTS..

WEDNENDAY.

The court was again densely crowded at an early hour,
large numbers of people being admitted, and then the
d...rs were closed, and only a select few allowed to enter.
By direction of the Bench, the Council Chamber doors
were opened.
The magistrates were Mr. Joseph Ayling (chairman),
Hr. W. Talbot, Mr. I:. Reynolds, Dr. Joseph Drew, Dr.
If. Tizard. un the Bench were also Mr. J. H. Devenish,
Mr. .1. Talbot, Dr. Nathan, and other gentlemen not on
the commission of the peace.
A stool was first places) for the accommodation of the
prisoners, whom the clisirmat asked to stand up. This,
however, was not insisted on.
Mr. Welsford .• Last Saturday I asked you, gentlemen,
that I might be allowed to see the depoations, on which
the prisoners were apprehended. I have applied to Mr.
Arden. and I have not seen them yet. I now renew my
application, and also apply that I may be allowed to see
the warrant under which they have been apprehended.
Mr. Howard: I have had nothing to do with this ; but I
may say the last was simply an opening deposition, and I
will make my came de uses.
Mr. Ayling : The awe was adjourned to give you an
opts,rtunity of introducing (rah evidence. Are you pre-
pared to do so?
Mr. Howard: Certainly, sir.
Mr. Howard was then toll to go on with his CRC.
Mr. Welsford : I have made an application to you, and
I expect to be treated with COl3llllOll courtesy. Do you
give me any answer to that application or not?
Dr. Drew : You are entitled to see the depositions.
. . .

Mr. Butt: You saw them in the office, sir.
Mr. Welsford : I have not seen them.
The depositions were handed to Mr. Welsford, and after
examining them,
Mr. Welsford asked: Ilas Mr. Poole sworn to any
deposition
This was also handed in.
Mr. Welsford wish to see the warrant, if you please.
lie continued : I beg to submit that on the depositiorui an
made there is no offence charged against these prisoners.
It is one of the first principles of the law of this country
that when a person is apprehended, it shall be stated
what is the nature of the crime on which he has been
arrested. There is no attempt, in any shape or way, tosay
they obtained goods by false pretences. It is stated that
the form of the warrant shall state shortly the offence,
and shall describe the offender, but with the exception of
the word Mc.Dermotts, the prisoners are not described,
and I hear no statement of the offence on which they have
been apprehended.
Mr. Howard said the prisoners were there not simply
on account of a warrant, but they were con eeee itted to take
their trial. No question could arise as to the warrant, or
that would be only a civil case. On Mr. Howanl's corn.
meneing to open his case, Mr. Webfford objected that lie
had already opened, and that he could not re-open his
case. . . . .

Mr. Howard said he WU only going to do so to expedite
justice; it would be pniposterous for a lawyer to call wit-
nesses without stating what they would prove. It might
be very well to use strong words but he would tell Mr.
Welsford that the Bench would lean if anything; rather
to the prisoners than &gaited. them. If Mr. M elsford
could explain away the facts it would be no source of
regret to him (Mr. Howard) or to the prosecution. He
only On a previous occasion. put before the Bench sufficient
evidence t, justify a remand, and he was now going to
open the case.
Mr. 'it elsford pressed his objection, and the Bench
decided that Mr. Howard had already opened the first
case. . . .

Mr. Howard then said he would proceed with another
ca.,e: and open that.
Mr. Welxford decidedly objected to Mr. Howard
throwing °ter one case and opening another : hut
The 'tench decided that he had a right to dos°. and Mr.
llowunl introduced it, after a great deal of pertinacious
discussion.

-"kr. Howard had no wish to inflict a speech upon the
Bench. hut he wished to put the facts before them. Ile
said the parties obtained goods from Mr. and Mrs. Green
on false pretences.
Mr. 1% elsfonl interposed.
Mr. Howard: My fnend says he is not going to interrupt
me, he has done nothing clue for the last hall-hour.
Mr. Welsford : I really don't know what is the charge
against prisoner,
Mr. Talbot You'll hear a great deal by and by, Mr.
Welsfonb
Mr. Howard continued that the doubts as to what con-
stituted false pretences were now cleared away by Act of
Parliament Ile was going under section 8; but he was
not called upon to particularise any section. The magis-
trates only had to decide whether there was sufficient case
for twelve jurymen to try it, they did not try the case.
In supporting a Case for false pretences, all criminal
cases hail to do with the general conduct of the people
theinselve, at, before, and after, and he should call
witnesses to show it. If Mr. Welsford thought he had no
right to do so lie should object The Misses Mcilermott
went to the shop in Mary-street, and made statements
that they were people of considerable wealth. They also
spoke of Colonel Holt, one of their sisters being married
to him, and he coining Ready-money jayments were
first made, and people were deceived. They afterwards
went to Belle Yee and lodged, acting in concert. They
spnad abroad reports, among others that they owned a
town called 21cDennott, in Roscommon. They did not
then ask for credit, but paid readydnoney. It had been
objected in another can that false pretences being spoken
by some of the party, and not by all, they were not all
liable; but the Court of Queen's Bench held that as they
were all present they were all liable. He should prove
that they had no property of the kind they had stated,
that their clothes were merely nothing except what they
bought hers; he should prove that the elder prisoner had
laid in prison for months. As far lack as Pee, the elder
One was in gaol, and her affairs were settled by a nominal
payment of 2s. 64. in the Z. Their landlady they owed
.1.11111) and more to, and they had almost ruined her.
Another debt was incurred by means of their statements,
and when a warrant was obtained, one of them got out of
the house and'got away. It was under those circumstances
that they appeared in Weymouth. While they incurred
all these debts, they were pawning things, and he had a
dozen or L 5 pawn tickets, showing that at the time they
made these pretences they were out of means, and in
fact destitute. The difficulty was to select one of the
nualenllta cases against them. They were all one party,
and it was useless to say it was Colonel Holt, for they all
lived together, and all consumed the proceeda. If he
wished to appeal to their sympathy, it would be in behalf
of • man, who hail been assisted by a charitable public to
start in business, and to whom their conduct would be
almost ruin. They had no means whatever, and did not
pay anybody, even for the necessaries of life. He should
call Mrs. Green and go on with the case of obtaining goods
by false pretences from Mrs. Green.
Mr. Welaford asked what was the charge
Mr. Howard repeated his words.
Mr. Howard then called Mr. Gibbs, pawnbroker; but
Mr. Welliford objected that his evidence could not be
taken, unless under the fact that they had no property.
But he was in a position to prove that the prisoners had
landed property in Ireland, and Mr. Vickery had also
received a cheque for DV for the prisoners.
Mr. Howard: Ugh. He urged that the evidence might
be received, as evidence of guilty knowledge.
n. prisoners then stood.
Mr. e It. Gibbs, pawnbroker, said he saw in April, about
the 28th, the elder lady.
On Mr. Welsfonl's application, one of the prisoners, who
was ill, was 'Mowed to sit down.
Mr. Gibbs continued that the elder lady pawned a gold
watch and jewellery for £1 lee or 1:5 in the name of
" Mni. Jona, ' By Mr. WeLdord : I have not my books.
Exiuuination continued : It was redeemed on the tlth
May; but I can't tell by whom. On gird May. abe Pawned
other articles for les., this was. I believe, the eldest
Prisoner. On June 4, for 12s. something was pawned by
one of the prisoners: but I can't say by whom. The
various Minting acts were done, either by the eldest
prisoner or by that one (Catherine). On the 16th, tith
and 2lst, articles were pawned, and also in July. These
acts were done by these two prisoners, two by that person
(I 'atherine), and the others I can't lay by whom. There
were pawned on the lot July, three, and one on the Bth,
and some of the otheni were pawned by the senior pri-
soner. The prisoners came alone. None of the latter
articles had been redeemed. The articles were pawned for
small sums, such as lea., 5.4., 114 a, te. The majority of the
articles seemed to have been botieht SOHIC time; but some
were new. A a um. lot consisted of • new pair of
earrings, brooch de, pawnell by Catherine.
Mr. Welsford : Gentleman, I have objected to this
! evidence, and I don't intend to cross-examine the
witpeas,

:men.wife of Geo. tireen : I carry on business
in St- klarymtreet, as poulterer mid greengrocer. I saw
first the inoUier, the young lady sitting down, and the
other too y 'ger 0110,4 They said they had wine to deal
with me they were a lame family, and they could lay out
is lot of money with iiie, if 1 WII% moderate in my charges.
Then they were lo,l.ing at 3, Grosvenor Flare. They
bought isime butter, Potatoes_ and other vege•
tables, and paid for them. They sail they had
only just some from their journey a few days.
They said they had a married daughter coining over
from Guernsey (or Jersey), and they would all ledge
together, and keep a hook with me. They also had a son-
in law, and he would lmlge with them, altogether. From
time to time, they looked in and Isiught things, and 1
served them generally myself. The youngest came to
lay shoe, and sometimes the others, und I understood the
housekeeper, and ordered what she wanted for the houae.
They told me they were of Irish decent, and when I said
I had a relation from Ireland, they seemed more wrapped
Up in me. They said they had ample means to keep them,
and they were here for the benefit of their health. On the
representations they made I trusted them. My husband
1,1 an invalid.

Mr. WeWord objected to this question.
Examination continued: Two of my customers became
lankrupt, and although the Colonel askal for throe
..... nth' eredit, I sent in my bill. Ile :akat my humband
to lend him .15 and put ill the bill, which lie refusal, but
lent I LI. Col. liolt gave rue a bill. which those ladies
knew of •

-..-
Mr. Welsford objected.
Mr. Green: If those gentlemen on the Bench don't
allow me to give a true statement what is the good of my
evidenee—(ipplause.) They owe me £l6 12s. Md. The
waa payable on Arecuhe,.
received
,41 bill, which
but "th
theedy6 give
kTn°thrurt
day' irace
at the Bank. I went there on the 11th, and found the
bill was not met, and then I went to 1, Belle Vue. I did
not see Col. Holt ; but I found he WM gone away for the
benefit of his health, for six weeks. The daughter
Elizabeth told me this, and said she was very sorry for me
indeed- (laughter).
The daughter Elizabeth al. laughed at this.
Witness continued : This lady here gave him a very bad
eharaete: 1111111,111111 t Isis intemperate habits. Catherine
often enme and e..ntinued for five or six weeks afterwards, and took the things herself sometimes, which, no doubt,
she've communicated toter lawyer suet.. Mo.-sum about
the 6th of August. For the drat five or six works, either
the Colonel ordered it, or these ladies ordered them for
the Colonel. Yllll can't 'mike h mistake about that an
Irishman is sometimes allowed to speak twice—Baughter).
They sloe ordered goods for themselves, when they were
at Grosvenor Place. The Colonel, when he came, said I
the things might se well be put down to him.

Mr. Weidord said the witness had referred to a certain
book ; the prisoners said it was among their boxes, and he
asked that the police might give it up. He si as quite our-
priced at mrs. Green being put in the Six; he iia.s quite
en prepared.
mr. Howard was quite prepared for any ad j .... • ent
Mr. Websfoni ;night ask for ; but he n,u.t nut make any
observations about unfairness. He quite agreed that
unexpected es idenee would be put in. as 'smile did nut
"sisnng " a case of false pretences before the time.
Mr. Welsford : And iny friend will have an unexpected.
answer.
Cross-examinol: Before I saw Colonel Holt, it might
have been • fortnight or three weeks, not less than
a week. I first entered things to 1, Grosvenor Place. and
afterwards to Colonel Holt. The first word is "Colonel
we were going to write "Colonel Holt," when he rams;
but the word "Colonel" was not written before he came.
'lto first articles were only entered to the Mimes
Maxermotts ; but we understood that /the Colonel said
they paid him for their keep. They were daily customers.
' very kind indeed-4414111er/ The Colonel told me to
enter toe things to him : these were the things that I had
mitered to these ladies. It was over • week that I sent
things to .irodenor House, after they came; it was
certainly more than a week ; but I ain not sure • I wish I
hadn't sent them at all. I have not applied to the old lady
for payment ; but the things were included in the book,
sent to the household daily. I only knew their residence*,
and not their names. There were no particular statements
made about property. it was a mere matter of ordinary
conversation. They told me they had • good income to
live upon. The Colonel showed my husband the papers as
te what they had to live upon. When he gave the bill,
he referred to his papers for the day of ;say men t and told
say husband. He gave this bill, and represented that
when the bill became due, he would have his money. On
two or three occasions they spoke of their income, about
a month after the Colonel came, perhaps. The young
ladies 'did not say she had an income ; she was a woman of few
besides
words, but she took the goods of my shop, when my
ltadted me she had had
an an
incomeincome, of the
The
ColonelcidFli
None to
children ought to have been siting it. Catherine did not
say she had a separate income, neither that she had •
the box, my time's precious. They said altogether they
r lay &Ja youi is comego h
o f
1 shall r o Inih have s
impatient,explained
an that
dg
ooutbefore.
of
had an income, they did not include the Colonel. The
elderly lady said it, and all the others were present, and I
daresay they said it, all of them.
here answered:
Witness: I thought they had a property.
nenveressifwed soul.°4 one of the youngest, I
Mr. Weldord : You will nut be surprised to hear they
have a property. at LSO a year?—Ps.--NO, I'm very pleased
to hear it.
Q.-- Nor another property, at ISIS a year.—A.—l am
very glad to hear it ; I wish they had paid me out of it.
Mrs. Green's book was then produced, and in answer to
Mr. Welsford, she said she was willing to have given
credit to Colonel Holt, or his wife, or to the Mimes
McDermott. She continued: I hope you'll pay me for
stopping here, my business I want to attend to. I should
have trusted the Colonel by himself, or the ladies without
the Colonel. I would have trusted them had the Colonel
not conic. I should have trusted the ladies on their
respectable appearance and likewise their income.
was going to charge "Colonel Holt and the MiPADIS
111cDennotts ;" but he, said "Put it to mu as one bilL"
would have trusted the Colonel, Or those ladies, and I
shan't answer that question again, if you put it to use.
—Re-examined : I trusted them on their respectable
ce, and from what they said. The goods appeared
V.A7fahle common necessaries of life.
John le Rossignol, governor of Iler Majesty's prison at
Jersey: I have held that appointment for 17 years; I
know the whole of the prisoners as residing at Jersey.
Q.—Have you had either of them in the prison at
Jersey?
Mr. Welsford objected to the question as to certain
acts and occurrences which had happened sometime since.
How would it prove, even if he got the answer he wished,
that they are not persons of property now. A person
I might he a beggar one day, and wake up next morning in
possession of wealth.
Mr. Ayling said these prisoners were charged with
swindlinst.
Mr. Welsford was surprised to beer Mr. Ayling as an
old magistrate say so. If he read Burns' Justice from one
end to the other, he would not find they were charged on
such • charge.
?dr. AylingWell, then,it is for obtaining goods OD
false pretences. It is much the same.
Mr. Welsfoni went on to contend that the evidence was
not admissible.
Mr. Howard asked if they were to have a long speech
on every point? If so, they had better devote a fort-
night to the hieing of the case, or have their beds and
sleep there.
Mr. Welsford : Well, have them; but in coumion justice
don't let us have improper evidence. He went on to say
that the prisoners have property in Ireland, and expec-
tations; be argued, producing cases, that the evidence
could not be received.
Mr. Howard was surprised to hear any person in this
neighbourhood argue as Mr. Welsford did, for the whole
of it bed been Previously gone through in Miss Truich's
case, wowas convicted, and had five years at Dorchester.lf there was all this property about, why did not Mr.
Welsford take steps to prepare a mortgage on the Pro-
perty, and pay the debts? In almost every criminal case,
part of the evidence consisted of evidence as to previous
act* of the prisoners, not as part of the ref gester, but as
evidence of a guilty knowledge. In Miss 'hutch's case,
people were brought from Bath and Swindon, to show
Miss Trutch'e poverty. Even the governor of Swindell
union was brought, to show that Miss Trutch was in
Swindon union.

The question was allowed.
M. Rossignol said : The eldest lady was detained in gaol
for debt on three occasions, and Miss Catherine on one.
produce the register of prisoners for debt, in the Jersey
prison. The elder prisoner was taken inta prison on
October 8, 1873, and on December. ltt73, the Sheriff took
her to the Royal Court, she having taken the benefit of
the Act. On the 27th December, she made oath that she
gave up the whole of her property for want of means to
satisfy her creditors.
Mr. Aylng : Were there any dividentis paid :
M. le Iteasignol : There was no dividend in December
last, but in NM there was • small dividend. The Sheriff's
officer brought the old lady, and he looked out for the
younger one; but she never appeared. The debt was
about LW 10s. Id. ; it was for a note of hand signed
jointly by the two. The old lady has been in debt for
over 1-1101.), in separate sums. —Cross-examined: There is
no other gaol in Jersey. A creditor who wishes to put a
person in gaol is bound to go before the magistrate, and
swear that the debt is due. A person may thus be appre-
hended on the affidavit of a creditor. In Ititti certain
affidavits were made, and Mrs. McDermott was put
in gaol : and there were other affidavits, detainers,
afterwards. When • person is released from prison, the
Sheriff sends the release, and thus in PM Mrs.
Mc.Denuott was released. The creditors told me that they
took Is, tisl. in the pound. On December 14, Miss
Mc.Dermott was about three hours in my office, and then
1 received the Sheriff's order to release her. They were
there for a joint debt, It was at the suit of • Mr.
IJeaucanip, and on that debt she took the benefit at the
Act. This was the only one on which there was a detainer
against her; but several gentlemen have come to me to
enquire where they were gone. I have been informed that
she owed alit for house rent. She remained from October
to December.

--iir=lW-hen *people have means, do they not pay their
debts, and COlllO out of prison I
Witness: That depends—(laughter).
Mary Ann Beam:amp, wife of John Beaucamp : We
carry on business at 9. Stockford Road, Jersey, as bakers
and grocers. The prisoners incurred • debt with us; but
I was not able to get the money. It was previous to
December, 1K72. They first told us they had a regular
income, and would pay quarterly, it did not come post
after post, and they said they had an old uncle who was
going to die, and they would inherit the property.
Catherine came in, and said the uncle was dead, and they
would soon have the money, and would we let her have
• little more goods. The money did not come, and we
pressed them for a note-of-hiusd, which they gave, but
could not meet.
_ _

—Dr ur-e. ir-14 are perfectly satisfied they were without
means in Jersey.
Mrs. Beaucamp continued that she got an order for the
arrestof Mrs. McDermott, and of Miss Catherine,, well,
but she got away from the island, The mother was lodged
In prison, and remained till December, when she took
the benefit of the Act. As far aa I know, from enquiries
I have made, she owes nou for hones rent.
Mr. Weldord objected to this, and the matter was net
entered on the depositione.—Cross-examined : We
supdplied the family. The things were supplied to Mrs.
an MMs McDermott. They gave no explanation as to
who would pay; but they were fetched by Catherine, and
the whole family would pay ma It was understood that
between them they should Pee for the goods; Miss
Catherine fetched them, but she did not ten me parti-
cularly that Mrs. McDermott would pay.—ne.esamlaad
I suppose they ate and drank the goods, or did somebody
else with them.—Crees-erminiued : They were to be taken
to prison, but the young woman got away. The second
debt waa the mine as the first with the addition of
eler. Sanders said he supplied Col. Holt and Misses
McDermott, with butcher's meat, to the amount of all
Its. lOW., Mat had not been paid. Mies Catherine
generally came for the goods. He trusted Col. Holt, but
both CoL Holt and theMe.Dermotta came. The had it
all in Col. Holt's name, and he sent it to 1, Belle Vue, and occasionally the servant took it.
Mr. Butt was sworn to certain 'statements made by Pri-
soners on the morning they were apprehen4.. me was
at the police station, and at the request of the Bulw,_ had
tendent he took their written statementa after they ea"
been each duly cautioned.
These statements have already been sworn to by Supt.
Vickery.
Mr. Welsford utterly objected to the statements being
received in evidence.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wahlord : I an, entldeYed at
Mr. Arden's office • but I did not take the statements os
clerk to the magistrates clerk. They were all duly
cautioned by the Superintendent.
Mr. Arden very much objected to Mr. Butt being put
In the box; it would inoonvenienoe him much that his
clerk should have to go to the Sessions.
The erieenera being &allied and cautioned, pleaded
" Not milty," Catherine ad ing "It's all false.
Mr. Weisford expressed his surprise at the faultiness of
the evidence brought forward by the prosecution. The
charge was of obtaining goods by false pretences
Mrs. Green had stated that she would have trusted Col.
Holt or the ladies either, without the statements which it
was alleged the ladies made. These words would entirely
do away with the charge, for he did not care how many
"lies" might have been told—though he should prove
they were not false—if the statements were not the main
inducement to her letting them have the goods, the ease
was at an end. lie waited for the decision of the
Bench.
Mr. Howard said that Mrs. Green said she let the
goods go on the representations they made.
Dr. Drew : Mrs. Green says, " I should not have let
them have the goods if they had not made the atatement
that they were persons of means."
Mr. Howard mid the defence might easily say the pri-
*otters were persons of means. It was only to pay their
debts, and that would prove it.
Mr. Welaford said it WY the bounden duty of the pro-
secution to show the pretence was false. But there was another remarkable fact; • cheque had been sent to the
prisoners, and taken possession of by Supt. Vickery, and
he would call on lulu to produce did cheque.
It was accompanied by • letter, purporting to come
feria a land agency, to the following effect :- •
" Land A.genT 17, College Green,
Du eg Vin August 1074.
Dear Madam,--We have pleasure In enclosing bank. order
In favour of you and your sisters, for 4:57 15.. 8d lee. 2a. cid
exchange and order.
" Guinness, Mahon, and Co.
'• Miss F. 0 Me livennitt."
lie would call Supt. Vickery to admit the fact.
supt. Vickery : You have my receipt.
Mr. Howard said they bad offered over and over aeeiii
have this cheque cashed.tO
Mr. Welsford said he was going to rove that the Mimeo
McDerinotts had property in Irelamt the meta of which
produced £u6 Ids. 101.1. per alma, ; aaa was let to a
person named Haynes, producing a rental of .00, another
posperty produced MO 4s. 104., and another about LK }fere was a letter purporting to come from an went in
Dublin. it was received on the ilOth-A—uguid, would not
the superintendent who had leen sedans up the evidence,
who had been to Jersey, have put himself in comusunica-
Um'. and diacnvervd by this time whether this was or was
not tool fidc I The prosecution had referred to the mother
being in trouble in Del ; but the young ladies were
infants then, and they were now entitled to their Pro-
perty independent of the mother. They hal also expect",
them fr.uin other property, aml they must in
the course of events, beentne legally entitled to. it. In
time Court of Chancery war also a considerable
gfini f Money, to which they would by and bye beret"
entitled. These facts had not been " sprung" upon the
Prosecution. It was true the mother had been in diffi•
culti front eircuinstances out of her control, she having
been defrauded by her agents in Irelalsat she "'" imi
carcerated in Jersey. but there was no wofirstlsii,cee
that the mother had made false representations
Property. He contended that the Bench were bound to

digmbs
the
cue mile., the prosecution produced sott;hem:ei.
eviden3e that the prisoners had no property
Sept. Vickery wan called, an'i said i have the fliafla
a joint order, I would surrenuler the cheque. The a'ooner
I get rid of it the better all the other iui,ney ic gone.
Mr. Wola(ord, lerhapo you will mob the
il: Perhaps, Mr. Ayling. you will haul ue
for the amount. That Ia about an reneon-
"cdohl'Hadii.odmi?be:lenwilrirtht'Wwt.chlhoreYleelel'icrngfouldtht:e
ve,l by the pr*,uoncrs, An to thin one, ho
e letter, he nnly took out the cheque Mr.
ean conducting the pruuoucution.
: have you not he'c huntiuu-' up evidence?
luiNzve.nVotickerYbeen huNnodnlghiat'uspbee. ull‘ecottinsnigdecrvittantee.nolt'utthel
proper term.
Mr. Howard : My friend Mr. Welsford's a sporting
character— (laughter).
Mr. WeGford aesured Ur. Vickery he used the terin in
a correct sense, lie urged that it was unaccountable that
Mr. Vickery, who had been to Jersey, and getting evidence
all about, should not have ascertained the truth respecting
this cheque.
Mr. ickery said in a day he should probably have a
conenuniestb .n about it. lleuuiadec,,'i,uiricouu liatel7
but not of Guinness Mahon and Co., but with his own
people, whore hand-writing he could swear to. lie
belved prisoners had ‘l3O a year, from their statemente
and from documents.
In answer to Mr. Howard, Mr. Vickery said he'd many
times offered to put the cheque into circulation hut the
prisoners had told hint it was to keep them till April
next.
Mr. Welsford : You wanted it cashed to pay Col. Molt's
debts.
The Magistrates retired, and on their return, the
Chairnian said they were unanimously of opinion that
they would hear the other cases before they gave their
decision, and this rose would stand over till to-morrow at
eleven o'clock. (Afterwards altered to Friday).
Mr. Howard asked to be allowed tog,, into 111 r. Poole's
Mr. Hugh Poole's evidence theiore given was read- lie
said the aniversation ns.h place on the 2Uth April, not on
the first orca.sion. —ln addition he said the greater ',Art of
the conversation occurred on the guth of ApriL They said
a place named Dennott in the West of England was
named alter them. They said they ownixl it theinselve..
Four of them were there, the younger prisoners. wet
CoL and Mrs. Holt, and a young 1.1 Some halfpence
were put down hi change, and the little boy ran away
with it, and t'ciL link ran after him. Ile would not have
trusted Cot Holt alone, because he hal just before had
trouble with a Col. Kook. in the Cresent, lie would
.wear that Catherine, Ellen, Elisalueth, and Mary
Mc.Derinott was there. The conversation was . Ile
provided seat, for three, perhaps four, and allgenera/ the Who;
sat down. They all drank leiounade. What they had on
the nest oeen.ion was Paid for. Colonel Holt came in two
or three times by himself. Once he said something about
the 124110/. Ile haul sent mediciue for the elder lady,
though she had not been in his shop.
Mr. Howard atedied for the prisoners to be remanded to
Friday instead of Thursday, and this was acceded to.
Mr. Welisford 111141, atl application for the cheque to be
handed over to him, on the part of the defendants. It
was not found upei the prisoners when they were Mears
cerated, but came subsequently to them The stun of
was perfectly inalejuate for the Intrp“,,,, of the d
As an instance of what expenses might I, requisite, he
instanced that he expected a gentleman over from Jerste
to-day but yesterday afternoon he received a telegram
that he had only just haul the letter.
Mr. Ayling : Is it by your advice that your cliente refuse
to endorse the cheque t
Mr. Welsford contended it was outrageous on the part
of the prosecution to ask he a cheque to he en.lorse.L Ile
quoted the authority of Mr. Taylor that unless the pro-
perty consisted of an instrument necessary to be produced
as evidence at the trial, or that it was part of the proceeds
of the crime charged, it was the practice in this country
to hand over property for the purposes of the defence.
Mr. Ayling : This order for £67 is useless now, is it
not?

Mr. Weldon' : It will not be unless if it is given up to

Mr. Howard: Let Mr. Weldord's clients endorse the
cheque, and then there will be the ta..ney. Ihv, cheque
ia cresting a certain :Inli.Unt, if dust, as if it were a
valuable thing ; but it is the easiest thing in the world to
give a cheque, stop paynsent of it, and give another. I
most positively object, In the part of the prosecution, to
the cheque being handed over. I odered. if the cheque
were a bond fib one, to let it be put in ,irculation ; but
they are now anxious, for sonie purpose or other, to get
possession of what way be only a piece of waate paler.
At all events, will you allow this application to be wade
at the adjourns,' 'loading I
Mr. We6furd pressed that he was entitled to the order;
but
The Bench made none.

The case occupied until nearly four o'clock. The
prisoners were removed, the youngest but one showing
gnat spirit, even at the close of the long hearing, during
which she hail stood the Frieder part of the time, refused
to accept a seat, except just for a moment or two, and
offered to
modating and jaunty air. She only once seemed crisis ;
Pass me,eages. Lx., about, with a most accon,
that was when Mrs. 4;r...en was giving her evidence, when
she sharply mail: " We ieit you for all we had !" "I wish
you had," retorted Mrs. i;revn, in a moment, and the WY
was silent. In the other hand, the mother appeared worn.
anxious, anal w ask; the youngest was evidently ill (she
If•e• been under medkal tn.eitinent) and Catherine bore
herself defiantly, occasionally making what sounded like
warni•tempemil ejaculations, though not clearly audible,
and she at one time seemed to be engaged in an under-
tone( altercation with the .1 • ladle who stood in the
foreground. The other young pers.n was silent and
reserved. Their demeanours were all ditterent, and it did
not escape notice that Catherine is vastly unlike the rest.

FURTHER. EXAMINATION OF THE MC. DERmi)rrs.
Friday, Mr. J. Ayling (chairman), Mr. W. Talbot, Dr.
J. Drew, Mr. G. Reynolds, Dr. H. Mani.
The mother and four daughters .11c.D,rowets were
brought up again on viuious charges of obtaining grssls
by false pretences.--The Court was again very full: but
there was not quite so many people pre.ent 1/4 on former
occasions, and there seemed a slight ll ill igloo in the
interat attached to this very long soul tedious ease. The
Chairman first said he thought a great deal of time had
been occupied unnecessarily, ant if the advocates would
curtail the case an much Ili they possibly could, the Bench
would he obliged.
Mr. Welaford extremely regretted to have to ray what
he what he was going to. Ile had heard that Col. Holt
was indebted to the etlll of one of the hiagi,trates on the
Bench, and he suggested it WWI hardly right that that
gentleman ahould ,it during the hearing of the rase.
Mr. !lowanh voisidered that wa:, an uncalled for.and
unjustifiable remark, the greatest insult that could ho
offered. to the Beach.

rhe t.hatrusau for hunself, repudiated Mr. Welsford'a
remark..

Mr. Iteynolds asked if the olrien-al applied to him I
.• • •

Mr. Wrlford regretted to say .
Mr. Reynolds said no son of hi was indebbid in any way
in the CaAt ; there was not the slightest cause for the
observation.

Mr. WeWord then renewed his application for the
cheque sent by (Minne..., Mahon, to be given up to
him. He repeated his arguments anS called a cashier
from the Bank, who hail cashed a similar cheque for the
prisoners in April.
Mr. Howard strongly objected hi the cheque being
given up. It could not be wanted for the reference of the
prisoners • £9 10s. had already been given up to them, but
if Mr. Welsford woul.l have the cheque cashed. :mist singe
for a reasonable portion of it, he (Hr. Howard) would not
object. But the cheque was a rine for the prosecution in
smother case, lie was told the debt, prisoners owed were
about /IWO or l'Asses, and the mother had levosel throuzh
a Court, swearing she had given up all her property. The
cheque was a most valuable thing for a case of loerjury.
I Mr. Welaford said he had telegraphed to Ireland for
certain parties to come, but had received a telegram that
they found it impossible to arrive in time. Ile had done
i everything he could to get a gentleman who would explain
everything in connection with the case.
Mr. Howard said he should not oppose an adjournment,
if Mr. Welsfonl asked for it.
A rattier embittered discussion followed. Mr. Howard
objected to telegrams being read and entertained ; but at
length
The Bench made an order that the cheque should be
given up to the prisoner's solicitor.
The case wax then continued by the crows-examination
of Mr. Hugh Poole, chemist and druggist.
Mr. Poole Said, in answer to Mr. Welsfonl : These
prisoners cause to my shop the tint time- I can't give the
exact day—two or three days before Easter t I cannot
Individually tell you who came with them, I have an idea
but I cannot 551 Positively. Colonel Holt was there the
first time. I have not sworn that on the first occasion they
sat down and entered into convereation. The particular
, conversation occurred on the 2Uth April. I have not
sworn, to my knowledge that I swore at was on the first
occasion, that they entered into • conversation about
Ireland. I now say it took place; but I cannot say on
what occasion. It was on the 20th ApriL On Use sirst
occasion they might have spoken about Ireland. All four
younger prisoners were in my shop on the 2oth April, and
it was then that the particular conversation took place.
I do not remember Mrs. McDermott being ever in iny
shop. I believe she has not been In, while I was there.
Mrs. McDermott I have not spoken to in my life ; she has
not made representations hostile ; hut I have sent medicine
expressly to her. Mr. Poole's book was produced, mid he
stated: Everything there is entered in Colonel liolt's
name. I have caused her to be apprehended on • charge
of false pretences.
Mr. Howard objected that the representation of .sic
was the representation of the whole, as they were living
tiMr___, We treat them as part of a Long Pins'.
Velaford : Indict them for conspiracy then.
Yr. Howard: I don't know what we shall do between
this and October.
Mr. Poole: I slid uot know what shape or form the
charge would take ; but I knew she was sine of the part).
who had swindled me out of my goods, and I with another
caused her to he apprehended. I have sworn that I believe
those eiippitt to be common swindlers.
Mr. Welsferd asked why Mr. Po.ile stated that?
Mr. Howard objected.
Mr. Webdord urged that it was impatient. and he was
entitled to have this charge against Mrs. Mel rennutt
missed.

Howard said it was irregular ta make such an
observation, as Mr. Weldon.' was in the tuiddle of Ids
cr?tri-ennutination.
. . .

.......
Mr. Welsfonl inked Mr. Poole various questions on his
original evidence, but the witness refused to swear to
anything that he had not sworn to before. The quvalon
pressed Wild whether he had not sworn he did not recollect
whether there might not have been others.
Mr. Ayling : I think, if Mr. Wehdoni is going to occupy
the time in this sort of was, we had better make prepare-
titans to lodge here.
Mr. WeLaced I have a duty to perform, and I cannot
help it, if the Bench have to lodge here, if the witness sill
not answer proper!).
Mr. Poole repeated I will not swear ; I cannot t•N CAr
there was no other lady with them. The moat particular
portiell of the convenation took place on the ZOth April.
On that date they collectively referral to Weymouth ; but
I cannot say who Col. !Jolt took the initiative all the way
through-
)lr. Howard referred to cues where it had been ruled
that whether one or the other 'woke the words, u they
were spoken in each other's presence, they were
collectively responsible. He objected to the crosseverej.
nation.
welsfeel urged that if Mr. Howard was going to
prove they were acting in concert, they were indicted on
so improper charge: let them In. indicted for conspiracy.
lithe Bench objects,' to ha trio.. e %animation he would
sit do. LI.
The Bench, alti.cd by Mr. Arden, admitted the objec-
tion by Mr. Howard.
In answer to Mr. Howard, Mr. Poole read a list el thin.p
.0 tied, and said he should not have let Colonel Holt
have so much of the gooda for himself alone. The coeds
were ordered, sometimes by one person, and sometimes by
another.
Charlotte Bolt am a shot:oven= at Mr. Rhodes's
confectioner, St. Thomas-street, and have been there
since Christmas. We keep cooked meat; it is a refreshment
room ist well as • shop. I have not sun all the prisoners
come to the shopwindow ; but I have seen Col. and Dint.
Holt. Outer Holt, and three or four of the younger
,s.i„oocrs. I have not seen the elder prisoner none into
ti ,hop but I have eseen her come to the shop window.
_rl,—Was there a 101 l run up to the. t of CH odd
in three months t- -Mr. Wehifonl objected ; but the
,wetios was repeated, and the witness answered, Yes
The first tame the ladles came and ordered it and then the
serrut generally fetched it. The bill was front the time
they came first up to the 3nl of .tagnst. Generally two
would come, and one would order, others would say what
they liked. Once or twice they took refrodonenta there
but not very often. The bill was delivered ; but llotbtl
me. After the third bill was sent in, the prisoner iie
Caine and asked toe to ask Kr. Rhoda; if he would let
their bill atop over for • month as they had been at Buell