The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1868-04-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

In the Reuse of Lerds en klac,h 27, Fart Russell called
attention to the coma, eats,, on the neutrality laws, and,
snoring for further correepondence with respect to the
Alabama claims, availed himself of the opportunity to vim
dicate his administration of affairs at the Foreign Office
during the late American struggle.
The Lord Chancellor observed that the neutrality com-
mission had agreed siren their report, and that It was cci
the eve of being printed. Ile trusted, if the recommenda-
tions of the commissioners were adopted, that they would
ensure the avoidance of future difficulties with respect to
the neutrality of this country. All the correspondence
had been produced ; but although he was well aide to follow
the noble lord into the field of argument which he had
opened up he declined to do so, and would con-
tent himself with saying he had no doubt Lord Stan-
ley had taken a wise, conciliatory, and proper course
fu offering to submit the case tif the Alabama claims
C., arbitration. Since that offer was made the question of
those claims had been mixed tip with a further demand on
account of the recognition of the ;-noithern Confederacy as
belligerents. In reference to this Lord Stanley was quite
jostitied, according to every principle of international law,
and. above all, the precedents of the United States them-
selves, in affirming that it was a question which every
country was entitled to decide for Itself, and that it WM
utterly irrelevant to the Alanonut claims, inasmuch as
prier to her Majesty'. proclamation, the United States had
recognised the Confederates as belligerents by declaring the
lockade which otherwise they would not have been entitled
to do.
Alter seine remarks from Lord Westbury, who discussed
the question as one both of international and municipal law,
the Lord chancellor valued their lordships that negotia-
tions were not broken off that Mr. Seward had proposed a '
!teneral commielep to turestigate all claims on either side,
-nd that Lord Stanley hail requested more definite informs-
tion nuth regard Li the scope and object of such a corn-
Whin
Ihe motion was then with irawn, and their Lordships
ijonrned.

In the Home ef Commons, Lord Stanley gave notice of the
'l,,isterial amendment to Mr. Gladstone's motion on the
ehurch. It Is in the shape of a counter resolution.—
: 0., Ws house, wild° admitting that considerable moditl.
al the temporahties of the United Church M Ireland

after the pending Inquiry, appear to be expedient, is et
,• that any proposition tending to the disestablish-
,. ' disandovernent of that Church ought to be reaerved
"i* deAsion of the nee Parliament."
_ . _ .

•Aering a oneatton from Mr. Gladstone, Lord Stanley
bdinieted that he would move this reeolution aa au amend-
., oh to the preliminary motion that the House go into Coin-
mitt,o on the Acts relating to the Irish Church—the effect
which will be that Mr Gladatone'a reaolutions cannot be
put until Lord Stanley's amendment has been disposed of.
The announcement was received with very considerable
cheering.
On the order for going into Committee of Supply, Mr.
Candlish moved a resolution to the effect that measures
ought to be taken ler the early abolition of compulsory
pilotage.
The motion was supported by Mr. Alderman Lmk, Mr.
Pease, and Mr. Glisten, and opposed by Mr. Iloeninti, the
Solicitor-General, and Mr. Graves, the point at issue being
the relative merits and efficiency of compulsory and free
pilotage.
Mr. g Cave having Oven a pledge that the present
alomaloue system should receive consideration at the hands
of the hoard of Trade, the motion was withdrawn.
Mr. Gregory, in accordance with his annual custom,
brought under the nothw of the House the condition of the
British Museum, and made yellow; suggestions, which had
for their object the improved administration and manage.
meat of that institution.
. _

...-...-.. .....
Mr. Beresford Hope also offered some remarks upon the
I 'lnject, and Mr. Disraeli announced that a lull had been
prepared by the Government fir effecting a separation of
sic natural history department from the collection, and its
removal to Mouth Kensington. That the measure had not
)et been Introduced to the House was owing to the circuni.
stance that it had been thought expedient tosubmit it in the
first instance to the eonsidetation of the trustees of the
nniseum.

drew attention to the unexpected severity of
t'm punishment 14hich Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Pigott are
imdergoing under the sentence for Seditious libel, owing
clilefiy, as he represented, to the d,fference between the
English and Irish Prison. Acts.
Toe Earl of Mayo stated with great minuteness and exact-
ness the treatment to which these persons are subjected,
showing that the ordinary prison regulations are consider-
ably relaxed in their favor.% and that practically they are no
worse off than first clam misdemeanants in English gaols.
Mr. O'Beirne and Sir J Gray urged the assimilation of the
English and Irish law, which the Atterney-Oeneral for Ire-
land replied that the Government intended to effect, though
Mr. Locke showed that inn Newas'e and other Englieti prisons
the regulations were extremely severe, and insisted that so
much power ought not to be left to the magistrates.
Several bills were forwarded a stage, and the Houle ad-
journed.
In the House of Lords, on March 30, the Fart of Longford
and other noble lords presented petitions from Cork and
other places against the die-establishment of the Protestant
Church in Ireland.
.

Earl Russell postponed ids Church Rates Abolition Bill
until the 21.1 April.
The Poor Relief Bill, the object of which the Earl of Devon
...lathed to be to remove certain obstacles which interfered
lth the proper working of the Poor-law Board, and to
extend the power of the Board with reference to local
administration, was referred to a select committee._

Several edict' bills were forwarded a stage, and the House
adjourned.
In the House of Commons, Mr. alaolatone moved that the
h-rise will immediately resolve itself into committee to con-
sel er the acts relating to the Established Church in Ireland.
Ito said he should have to ask the House, when it got Into
committee, to say that the time had come when the Irish
Church, as an establishment, should cease to exist. In deal-
ing with this matter they should endeavour to conciliate
public feeling where it could be done, awl to act with all on
the principles of justice and equity. But, beyond that, the
aim of all these proceedings would he to put an end in Ire-
le Tel to all endowment, to ell grants from the Consolidated
leeid to be applied to the purpose of any religious denomi-
nation whatever. When they had satisfied every just claim
they would have to contemplate a residue, and that residue
Must he treated as an Irish fund, and applied to the exclu-
sive benefit of Ireland. There had until now been no state of
public opinion which would have enabled them 10 deal with
the question. He denied that there had been any sudden
apstacy on his part. A charge extending over a quarter of
a century was hardly to be esteemed a sudden change. In
1846 having lost his seat in consequence of his vote for the
repeal of the corn laws, be was asked to become a mem-
ber of Lord Russell's cabinet, and he refused because that
government was opposed to the Irish church, and lie then
said he could not vote to maintain it. And in 1865 he made
a speech, in which he stated that he could not support that
church, and his constituents took advantage of that, and
the cousequence was that he was not now member for
Oxford, but for South Lancashire. Speaking of the vested
Interests which would have to be respected, he said It would
be a question whether they should limit compensation to
those who were in possession of henefiees, or whether they
should not have sonic regard to those who had devoted
themselves to an indelible profession In the expectation of
being hereafter appointed to benefices. All he said was
that he did not at this moment absolutely shut the door
against them. He apprehended that there would be
no desire to deprive the protestant community of the
fabrics, provided they wished to apply them to religious
purpoam ; ant the same principle moult he Applied to the
residence. 01 the clergy. In addition to that, the proprie-
t.l3 of advowsons would have a strict claim to conmema-
tion ; but he believed that the benefices in private hands
only amounted to one-sixth of the whole. There were like-
Si private endowments by persons who had devoted their '
own money to this purpose. The effect of the process would
ha, that of the money value of the endowments not less than
threefliths, possibly two-thirds, would remain in the hands
of the Anglican communion in Ireland, and they would hold
it with the perfect and cordial goodwill of all sects aid per-
',lesions, both in this coinitry and In Ireland. It was said
et the disendownient id the Irish church would be flatl-
y. els ti the Church of England. Assertion might be net by
O sertion, and he claimed the liberty of making an absolutely
.reisite assertion. He held that it would be dangerous to the
t eureti of England to hold her to be in COMMUSIOS with a
state of things politically dangerous and socially lin-
net. It could not be said that the existence of the Irish
Church Establishment was necessary for the maintenance of
Protestantism in Ireland. The penal laws, while they were
in force, were, to a certain degree, successful ; the propor-
tion of Roman Catholics to Protestants decreased, but since
these laws were repealed the proportion of Catholics to Pro-
testants lied increased ; and though the census of 1061
showed a small Pr' portionate increase of Protestants, the
rare of conversion waist smell that it w• mid take 1,500 or
1,000 years to effect an entire conversion if it went on at the
same rate He asked the House to agree to the principle of
disendowment ; and, further than that, he asked them to
arrest at this particular moment the creation of new
•ested Interests. The object of the third resolution
was to arrest episcopal appointments, hut not to inter-
fere with parochial appointments in private patronage.
It would also be necessary to stop the proceedings of
the Ecclesiastical Commission. This could only be done by
act of parliament. In the first part of the proposal he wished
to test the ipiestiou whether the time had come for dealing
with the established church in Ireland; and if they decided
that in the affirmative, he trusted they would not restrict
their action to an abstract resolution, for he bad never known
au abstract resolution to be the foundation of anything but
fable hopes. The final arrangements he thought ought to be left
to a reformed parliament, but he proposed that they should
prevent by legislation this session the growing of a new crop
of vested interests. There had been a connection for Toe )eau
between this country and Ireland, and during almost the
whole of that connection there had been a succession of
storms and temporary calms. From time to time the Irish
problem had been dealt with, but it had never been dealt
with by removing the whole cause of dispute ; and what had
hi on done had always been done under the pressure
danger Could they be surprised that the Irish people had
WWI to exhibit gratitude? Ile appealed to the House to
amend this course, and to do all they could towards clearing
their account with Ireland.
The motion having been seconded, lord Stanley advanced
to the table to move his amend meut, and his appearance was
ledled with enthusisetic cheering. He assured the House
teat he was fully impressed with n seise of the Importance
of the question at issue, and earnestly desired that no
trick, no contrivance, no ambiguity, should interfere
ith the straightforward course of the debate, but that
the ideas and intentions of Ministers, in objecting to the
resolutions, should uot be misconstrued or mismiderstood by
ei?her side. The resolutions hail been described as involving
In disendlowment of the Trish Church, but when he looked
at them, he found in them nothing of the kind. If
they asserted the principle of disendowment, the House
aid know what they were discussing and what they were
v. ding for but until that bight they had not been favoured
with any explanation of their meaning. Hie first objec-
t:on, this, was that members were called upon to say
you or nay to a plan which was no plan at all a proposition
which was not before them in any definite shape but
which twenty people might construe in as niany inf.
ft rent ways, and which no two who might vote tor
it would on the following morning agree as to the grounds
Oa which they gave it their support This, however,
stria a merely verbal criticism and his objection was that
whilst the mover of the relied UtiOLIS laid down a principle, he
avoided all notice of the real question, which was not
whither anything ought to be done, but what should be
done, with regart to the status of the Irish Church. Ile
had a right to call upon the right hon. gentleman to produce
les scheme for the consbleration of Parliament, mid
that could best be done by means of a MIL But
titer the legislative changes of last year, it was, as
they all knew, simply impossible, according to con-
sliintional rule, for the present Parliament to continue
1,1 existence longer than was necemary to perfect the
arrangements that affected the new one. The waren,'
teerefore must be dealt with in the new Parliament,
hich would be elected by a new and greatly extended con-
itnency. The resolutions were consequently a simple erre
test by anticipation of the views of a dying Ilirliarneiit, which
was quit, unnecemary, as, whatever party may bent power, the
Irish Church must be among the sere 11 rat questions that would
mestere Its attention. The resolutions would, in fact, serve
no other purpose than that of an election cry for the new
Parliament
lir E A. Leathern believed it was folly to look for lasting
traequillity In Irelatel co lung as the Irish church was main- ,
talted. It was not the pruning knife they wanted, but the
axe; not reform, but disendowment
Sir. O'Neill denied that the Proteetants were not increasing
In Ireland, and contended that to disendow the church Was
to repeal the Act of rnion.
Mr. Pollard-Urquhart addressed the House in support of
the motion, and Mr. B. Cochrane against it.
Mr. Moncreiff believed that by doing justice to Ireland In
respect to the Irish church, they would do more to tran-
quillise Ireland than by any other course.
ford Cranborne said the leader of the opposition offered
them a policy the Foreign Secretary offered them a paltry
excuse for inlay. lie inaintaineil the principle of a State
church, which had done us much good in past Ulnae, and
might do much good hereafter, and he would not desert
thet principle when applied to Ireland. Ile doubted whether
the object for which this great sacrifice was to he made
would he obtained. They were going to draw down upen
theneelves the bitter enmity of one third of the population,
ieee tear the most able and the most wealthy, and they bad
v s,o rity that they would conciliate the remainder. It
sv .s tome-4e to tell what the policy of Inc government
eee el he Ile could not forget last year. Secretary after
se•retary might get up and avow their determination to
uphold the church, but he was utterly sceptical as to their
power over their erraric leader. :This ambiguous amendment
weubi not have been put forward-by any ministry lie s

they had no policy to propose, or unless they bad a policy
which they dare not propose Among eert nin gentlemen on
I the ministerial side of the House the amendment was
' popular: they said it was clever. It Pan too clever by
half. He was kr meeting the resolution by a direct nega-
tive, but lie coul3 not support an amendment which was
merely brought forward for the purpose of maintaining in
the hands of the present Government the cards to :Mottle as
they liked, sod to repeat the process of last year on the sub-
ject of reform.
Mr. Laing stated his intention of voting for the motion,
but suld it was not a question that could be settled by the
nrvriit

The Solicitor-General contended that the second resolution
was illegal, and the third unconstitutional. The former
objection might be met by an act of parliament, but the
latter could not. If they destroyed the Irish church, what
securily was there for the Scotch or the English?
Mr. i. 411.1011 answered the legal objections of the Solicitor-
General, and said the etfect of the Irish church establish-
ment aaj to carry. religious rancour into almost every rant.
fleation of society he Ireland.
(Co the motion of Mr. G. Hardy the debate was then ad-
journed.. .

-fle-ilarine Mutiny Bill paseed through committee, an
amendment being Introduced by Lord 11. Lennos similar to
that carried on the Mutiny Bill for the army, abolishing
flogging in time of peace.
Some other business was then disposed of, and the 'loose
adjourned.

In the House of torda, on March M, the Mutiny 11111, the
Marine Mutiny ittit, and the Inclosure Bill, wore read a first
time.

- The North and Routh.Weatern Junction Railway Lill was
read a third time and pawed.
The Railway lattension of Timii`, Bill was read a third
time and paned, on the motion of the Duke of Richmond.
The Indian Railway Companies Bill passed through com-
mittee.

The Consolidated Fund 46,000,000; Bill wined the second
reading.
On the motion of the E.trl of 31a1mesbury, and after
discussion, a new standing order was agreed to, that the
Practice of calling for proxies on a division should he
discontinued, and to prevent the order being lightly ens-
pended, that twice the usual length of notice should be given
of any motion for its suspension.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

In the Rouse of Commons the adjourned debate on the
Established Church (lrelautil was resumed by Mr. Secretary
Gerdy. They were called upon, he said, at a special and
peculiar moment, to go into committee on a matter of the
greatest importance, and which could be settled neither in
the present nor in the next Parliament, nor probably for
many years to conic, and this had been met by an amend-
ment of his noble friend ,Lord Stanley), which laid down
that, pending inquiry, any proposition that tended to ills-
establishment or disentiowment ought to be reserved
for the decision of a new Parliament. The question was one
of time, of occasion, and of opportunity, anti it would have
been an absurdity on the part of the Government to have
assented to the appointment of a Royal commiesicn, had
they not been prepared to endeavour to ameliorate the state
of things reported upon by the commissioners. The ground
which he took then was this, that at au advanced period of
the session, with little progress made in supply, with the
settlement of the Reform question for Scotland and Ireland
still remaining open, and with the necessity of calling for •
a dissolution of the preeent Parliament as early as possible, '
Ministers had a right to say that that was alit the time for
coming forward with an abstract resolution—for the first
was distinctly and solely an abstract resolution—respectieg
which they could not pledge the new Parliament, .11ii which
Mr. Gladstone himself admitted could not be carried into
effect by legislation in the present Parliament. It
was admitted that the scheme of Mr. Gladstone
could not be carried into effect for thirty years yet
It was now made a question of hours, though it
avoided the difficulties of the subject, anti brought before
the House only those parts of it ou which they could get a
united opinion, whereas if it went 011 to a full development
of the plan of the right hon gentleman they would have
split asunder into a morn of fragments. Hatt the Govern-
ment met the Resolutions with a direct negative, which,
so far as he was concerned, he was quite prepared to do,
it would have been said, "Von object even to entering upon
an inquiry or going into committee, and are not ready to ad-
mit that any reformation is itecesatry in the Church
whereas, by the Amendment, Ministers declared that if it
were shown by the report of the commission that re-
formation was necessary, they would be prepared to
act on that report. But the abolition of the Irish Church '
Establishment would be a practical wrong, and it was not
for Ministers to throw overboard those with whom they were
united by the lice of religion arid blood, of treaty and COllO
pact, for the purpose of reconciling those who were hostile
to them. The preservation of vested rights was spoken of,
but this was a queetion that concerned not simply the clergy
but the laity, and how were they to be compensated for their
vested interests I One argument in favour of the Resolu-
tions was, that if carried they would tend to tranquillise
Ireland but this was not the °pluton entertamed by
influeutial agitators in that country, for they proclaimed
that nothing short of the repeal of the moon would
give satisfaction. Then came the tmention relative to
which Mr. Gladstone had offered no explanation what-
ever—namely, wan it meant to secularise the revenues
of the Established Church, and what were the purposes to
which they were to be applied? Were there to be parsonages
for Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, anti other denomina-
tions as well as Episcopalians? Why, so far from that being
likely to produce content, it was more calculated to give
dissatisfaction, for according to a pamphlet written be a
Roman Catholic member of the House it appeared that
if the parsotage houses were left in the posseseion of the
Protestant clergy it would produce nothing but discontent
and irritation That surely must be a doubthil prospect for
the right hon. gentleman to contemplate as the result of
adopt Mg his proposals After all, then, the main question of
principle was, what was to be dune with the funds if secu-
larised and in the absence of an answer to that he had a
right to my that both on the question of time and of prin-
ciple it was not enough to vote on one part of the subject
without having an idea as to what the other portion was to
lie. It seemed to him, indeed, that they had now arrived at
this point—that the unsettlement of everything was clear,
and that the settlement of nothing was also clear. The
Government had been challenged to state whim they were
prepared to do. His answer was that, If in spite of the
objection which they took on the ground of time. the Amend-
ment were overthrown, then their course was clear, and
the Resolutione themselves would be opposed. Next, if they
were twketi what they would do, not in the present but in
a future Parliament, he replied that they would give no
pledge other thau this, that _ they would act in accord-
ance with the former part of the Amendment of Lord
Stanley, and if it should appear by the report of the com-
missioners that reformation changes were required for the
benefit of the Irish Establishment and for its security, they
would make them, if, however, they were asked to go
further, he would say, at least for himself, that he would not
be a party to inetoures for the disestablislim itt :if the Irish
Church. lie was not prepared to separate England from
Ireland in religious matters, and would never coosent to be
a party to severing that union of Church and State whose
glorious work it had been to uphold the light of the reforma-
tion in the midst of Ireland The right hon gentleman
concluded his speech amidst prolonged and enthusiastic
cheering.
Mr. Goschen said at last they knew from the speech which
had just been uttered what In the mind of the Government
" modifications" in the Irish church meant, and that they
did not mean Judithe to the population of Ireland. This was
not only a queetion of policy, but of justice, and the want of
a policy on the part of the Government was a sufficient
reason for its being brought forward by those who were
opposed to them.
Mr. P. Dawson maintained that the position of the Irish
church was now stronger, because niore efficient, than at
any previous time. Until this question was disinterred by
Interested parties, there was no disposition on the part of
the people of Ireland to re.open it.
Mr. 11-Cullagh Terrells supported the allegation that the
Irish church was an alien church by reference to a long list
of its bishops who were Engliehnien connected with noble
families, lie would apply the church revenues to some
settlement of the land question.
Sir IL Bruce, who had given notice of another amendment,
Said he would not press it to the embarrassment of the
Government. lie called on the House to pause before it
inflicted a blow on those in Ireland who had always stood
by the Eoglieh Government when Ireland had been in a
difficulty.
Mr. Carter, in a short maiden speech, supported the react-
Intim.. tie said his constituents had elected him in opposi-
tion to a gentleman who supported the Irish church. They
were plain people, and looked upon the maintenance of that
establishment as an injustice to the people of Ireland, and
that they added to the injustice by any delay in the removal
of it lie was of the same opinion, anti was glad to be able
to give ins first vote in favour of the resolutit ins.
Mr. Serjeant Armstrong ridiculed the legal objections to
the resolutions, sad said the question was, should Protestant
ascendancy be maintained at all haaards, or should ire! tut
be governed on the only principle which would tranquillise
the country—perfect etmality, religious am well as civil. Ile
did not think that the disendowment of the Irish church
would endanger the loyalty of the bulk of the Irish Pro-
testants. lie warned the house not to expect that the aboli-
tion of the Irish church would of itself be a panacea, but it
would remove the real obstacle to the settlement of the land
question.
Colonel S. Knox saw in these resolutions the destruction
of the union.
The dinussion was continued by Major O'Reilly, Captain
White, Mr. Schreiber, and the Attorney. General for Ireland,
the two former arguing for, and the two latter against the
resolutions.
Mr. Bright said it was a misfortune that they had a go-
vernment which spoke with a different voice from night to
night. The speech of the Home Secretary was entirely op-
posite in its tone and principles to that of the Foreign
Secretary the night before, aril he supposed that if the
debate went on till Thursday the Secretary for India would
answer the Home Secretary. This arose from having a
government that was in a minority. The House was in a
kind of chaos, the government was not a government,
and the opposition was not an opposttion, but the
opmaition helped the government to carry out the
principles of the opposition Notwithetatoling this
difficulty, there remained this question of the Irish Church,
which they must settle It was said this was a revolution
they were seeking to effect, hut it was a very email one,
affecting only 5,0.000 or 600,000 persons for whose eriritual
instruction they maintained no less than two archbisholis,
twelve bishops, anti thousands of clergymen, to whom they
paid an illOOlllO as large as would be derived from a capital
of ten or twelve millions. If these resolutions were carried
Into effect, that population would not he in a worse state
than the majority of the people of England or Scotland
There were nut two reasons that could be assigned in
defence of the Irish Church, the religious and the political.
As a religious Institution the Church of Ireland had
been a complete failure. It had not only not made
Catholics Protestants, but had made them more intensely
Roman than any other population in Party°, and it had made
the Catholics feel its matter of patriotism to remain Catholic.
Then how stood it se apolitical institution? It had hail to be
supported continually by the sword, and it was painful to
think that now the suspension of the Babette Corpus Act in
Ireland l was so common that it scarcely called for rentark. If
they were talking of is similar dissatisfaction with a
state church in Canada or Australia, the Ileum would
he unanimous in declaring that it should no longer exist.
lie did not think there was any force in the argument that
disestablishing the Irish church would lead to the disestab-
lishment of the Scotch and English churches The re-
cent disruption in the Scotch church was caused
not by assaults front without, but by dimensions
and seal within nor was the Church of England
likely to fall by the attacks of the Liberation Society. It was
suffering front an internal complaint, but if It could be at
peace within itself, he would be a bold prophet who would
' predict the time of Its fall. Ile congratulated the cen-
' servative members on the progress they had made lately.
They had diecovered that monsters—as they first thought
' them—were only holigoldihe ef her all. They had mastered
their dislike to free trade and reform, and he appealed to
them not to be alarmed at what was now proposed. Ireland
' waited and longed for a great act of reconciliation England
and Scotland were eager ta make atonement for past crimes
' anti errors and it depended on the House of Comment,
whether that reconciliation should take place, and whether
; that atonement should at length be made.
, On the motion of Mr. Roebuck, the debate was then
&Moaned, and immediately afterwards the House ad-
, journal.