The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-12-06 00:00:00

THE TOWN COUNCIL.

The usual Monthly meeting of the Town Council was
held yesterday in the council-chamber, in the, Town-
hall. His Worship the Mayor (S.. R. Graves, Esq.,) in
the chair. . The following members of the council were
also present :—Aldermen William Bennett, James
Parker, Joseph Cooper, J. Hayward Turner, Richard
C. Gardner, J. Bramley-Moore, and John Woodruff;
Councillors Thomas D. Anderson, John. Johnson Stitt,
Daniel Crosthwaite, Richard Sheil, Clarke Aspitiall,
James Crellin, Roger Haydotk, John Shimtnin, William
Johnson, Oliver Holden, William,liartoii, JaMeS Tyter,
Thomas 'Avison, James. Steainsi Edward Estill, David
Rae, Henry Christie Beloe, Charles T. Bowring, W.
P. Jeffreys, John Rogers, John Hays Thomas
B. Job, James Aspinall Tobin, Charles Mozley, Robertr
stin Gladstone; 'William Earle, jatnes.A.. ,Picton, tJames
It. Jeffery, James JOhnsdn, fkorge Nickson, Joienh
Nitolion; ,P.raneis A. Clint, R. M. Beckwith, John
Farnvorth, Samuel Siddeley, Joseph Steel, J. W.
Cropper, J. Gibbons Livingstone, and T. Vernon.
The proceedings, resolutions, and reports of • the
Finance Committee comprise the following recom-
mendations :—To increase the salary 'of Mr. E.
Roberts, assistant clerk to the clerks to the magis-
trates, from £l3O to £2OO per annum. To appoint Mr.
Robert Mason as an assistant book-keeper, in the trea-
surer's office, at a salary of £l2O per annum, and Mr.
James LewtaS, clerk, at £2O per annum. To increase
the salaries of Mr. H. M. Hutton, chief clerk in the
treasurer's office, from £2OO to- £2so' per annum ; Mr.
B. I. Owen, second clerk, from £l3O to £l6O per
annum ; and Mr. D. M. Brown, clerk and collector,
froM £l5O to £175 per annum, To suspend the stand-
ing order"of the Conndili numbered 45, and to sell. the
piece. of land ort the south sue of, Dale:Areeb,, 13etween
Sir Thomas's,buirldinO, and., Crosshalirstrept, by pritate
contract;. :to ptirebese a piCce of freehold land upon
the west side of Haekin's-hey, for the, sum of £1,750,
TO purchase a piece of land on the West side of
street, opposite Blackfield-terra"^ ' '"
781- yards to a .+ -' 'laving a frontage of
oi,reet, for the sum of £735 10s. 6d.
to purchase a piece of land on the west side of
Nethetfield-road North,- containing 25 yards for the
turd of £25. And also to purchase a plege of land, on
the south sidb,of Padditigtoili hetiveeti High-street and
king-street, containing 51 scittAie 3;:aida An. gtilli..Bf
£5l. To approVe of. a. rekised stale of pew rents for
St Michael's and St. Luke'S • „

TikE INttNDED VISIT OF THE EMPRESS OF THE FRENCH

TO LIVERPOOL.

The XlAYORinfprinefl! the Council...that .during the
latter part of last week, it h 4 been: aniOnced that it
Was the intention. of her Majesty the Empress of the
I:''reiith, to visit the town of Liverpool, on her war from
Beotladd, where her Majesty had been lately sojourning,
to London, and accordingly he had made arrangements
to give her Majesty as welcome and cordial a reception
as her high rank and the many eicellent qualities that
so pre-eminently distinguished her private and public
character, entitled her to claim at the hands of that
Council. (Hear, hear, and applause.)
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE observed that his worship
was entitled to the thanks of that Council for , his
exertions bh the occasion, He also spoke in flattering
terms of the august ladt Arlid intended to visit the town;
and 'Who, he belieyedi was ftillY ,entitled to a, reception
Commensurate with her dignified ridsitiorls acid leer um-
blemished eharabter, if the had 'visited EiverpoOl. (Loud
applause
INCREASE OE SALARY TO MR. ROBERTS.

The proceedings of the Finance Committee were read,
and contained the following recommendation :—To
increase the salary of Mr. E. Roberts, assistant clerk- to
the clerks to the magistrates, from £l3O to £2OO per
annum.
Mr. Alderman TURNER rose and said that since he
came into the Council-chamber he had heard with very
deep regret,that Mr. Alderman Stewart, the chairman
of the Finance Committee, was confined to the house
to-day through indisposition, and therefore it fell upon
him (Mr. Turner) to move the confirmation of the pro-
. ceedings of the Finance Committee. In the first place,.
he had to move that the recommendation to increase the
salary of Mr. Itoberts, the assistant clerk to the inagii-
trates, from £l3O to,, £2Q.p, pet annum, be confirmed.
He statedthat tgre was one thing very much in favour
He
Mr. Roberts, and that was that he was a most efficient
liefson in the dikharge of his duties; and, moreover, at
a full meeting of the magistrates, consisting of about
thirty members of the bench, it was unanimously resolved
that a recommendation be made to the Council to increase
his salary. .(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TYRER seconded the motion. ,
Mr. Avisosr wished to know when the Council would
put a stop to these periodical proceeding's of increasing
the salaries of their officials. Not a Council was held
from month to month; but they had fiVe or six persons
coming forward, asking for an increase of their salaries.
He thought that some stop should be put to the matter,
or else, he believed, that the Council would become
bankrupts (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. ASPINALL thought that they should reflect before
they voted the increase of salary to Mr. Roberts. It
appeared that 'there were two clerks, whose names 'he
did not exactly remember at that reorlfeet, but he
believed that one of them *as Arr. Anderton, and he
thought the other *as Mr. Ellis, receivieg a salary of
£2OO each a year ; but then, their situations were
hulCh more responsible than Mr. Roberts's, and why,
therefore, should that gentleman be entitled to as high
a stipend? And he (Mr. A.) was quite satisfied of this,
that if Mr. Roberts deserved £2OO a year, and no one
ought to know better than the magistrates, whether
that was so or not, still if they gave Mr. Roberts £2OO
per annum, it was quite clear that before very long they
would have 'a similar application presehted to them,
and he believed most properly and fairly too, from Mr.
Ellis and Mr. Anderten, fo'r ail increase of their salaries.
These .ttvo last mentioned gentlemen, he (Mr. A) did.
not hesitate to say, were worth more each year than the
gentleman to whom they now proposed to, give an
increase. He, quite well understood how reasonably,
and with what justice, if they acceded to the demand
of Mr. Roberts, and granted him an increase of his
salary to £2OO a year, Messrs. Ellis and Anderton might
make an application to have their salaries likewise
increased, in proportion as their services were more
valuable than those of Mr. Roberts. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ANDERSON remarked that it would probably be
in the recollection of the Council that some time ago
complaints had been made of the careless and irregular
manner in which the depositions, had been taken, and
this was owing entirely to the deficiency of clerks in the
magistrates' office ; there was not an adequate number
to do the work assigned to them, and consequently the
duty of taking the depositions was transferred to Mr.
Roberts, who had to discharge the work appertaining to
this office as well as his other duties. However, since
Mr. Roberts was entrusted with the duty of taking the
depositions, no complaints had been made, but, on the
contrary, the manner in which he does that work had
been spoken of in very favourable terms by the judges.
He believed he might say (in reference to what had been
alluded to by Mr. Aspinall, that the increase of Mr.
Roberts's salary to £2OO would have the effect of making
the senior clerks apply for a similar increase) that the
other clerks were perfectly satisfied that Mr. Roberts's '
salary should be increased, and they would not at all
feel aggrieved by its being increased. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said it was somewhat incon-
sistent that a discussion should be raised on a question
like that then before the Council, when the most coin=
petent judges of the 'duties performed by the person
asking for the increase, namely, Mr. Roberts, had,
recommended to the Council that the salary should be
increased. Now, they all knew that the judges had
reflected, arid reflected very seriously upon the manner
in which deposition had been taken that came before
them ; and in fact, in one instance they threatened to
refuse them altogether—(hear, hear,)—on account of
particularly to gentlemeri of tris
gentlemen who got up a sort of false economy, and who
would seem to desire to screw people down to such a
point, and such a pitch, that they could not live. (Hear,
hear.) He said, and he would repeat it in the most
emphatic manner, that it was wholly unbecoming
that Council to employ officers in any position or
in any place, when they had not the means allowed
them of living respectably, according to the station
in which they were placed. (Hear, hear). But more
than that, it appeared particularly odd that at the time
that these objections were raised to the increase of
salary, Mr. Aspinall should invite persons of the officials,
and servants of that body to come forward and ask the
council for an increase of salary also. Now, by so doing,
he bad given and conveyed to two gentlemen employed
in the Magistrates' Court a direct invitation to come and
ask theM (the Council) for an increase of their salaries.
Now he (Mr. 8.-M.) took it that the present increase
of salary was asked for because it was deserved, and also
he thought that each applicant for an increased
remuneration for his services should stand on his own
merits. (Hear, hear). And, if Mr. Roberts were under
or inadequately .paid for the services he discharged, it
was their duty to pay him for the work he performed
for them. (Hear and applause). In the same manner
if other gentlemen felt that they also were underpaid,
he thought the proper course for them to pursue was to
apply to the Council for an increase, and no doubt the
• members of the Council would deal with the applicants
according to their respective merits, but he certainly
objected to any such suggestion as that thrown out
by Mr. Aspinall, namely, inviting persons to come
there and ask for an increase of salary, simply because
another official had obtained an increase. (Hear,
hear.) lie hoped, however, that these gentlemen would
have good sense enough to 'show them the propriety of
not _acting upon any such invitation, because, he was
quite sure, if they had adopted a contrary plan, and
made an application for an increase of stipend, it would
be but prejudicial to the case, and few gentlemen in that
room would consent to be accessory to any increase
being granted. (Hear, hear.) He repeated it again,
each applicant for increase of salary should rest and
apply upon his own merits, and on that ground alone
(hear, hear); and if they did so, he for one (if the
applicant so deserved it, and he thought that the official
were underpaid), should be most happy and willing
to support him, and vote for an increase of his salary.
(Hear' hear, and applause.) While saying this much,
he could not help remarking that some of the officers
were paid. in a most, he was going to say in a most
disgraceful manner, and little better paid than the
common labourer in the street, or, at anyrate, little
better paid than a -second-rate working man, whose
wages were far more remunerative than the respectably_
moving official of the Town Council of Liverpool.
(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he thought it unfair in
that Council that they should screw &map the lowest
pitch those who were well worked, and, mayhap, inade-
quately paid in their service. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. JOB had a remark to make upon an observation
that fell from Mr. Bramley-Moore, as respected the
affidavits, upon which he had commented, and founded
. his argument why the salary should be increased.
Mr. 13aaamay-Mooaa—Not the affidavits, but the
depositions. .
Mr. JOB continued, and said that the carelessness in
the depositions was owing to inefficiency on the part of
the previous occupant of the office before Mr. Roberts
was appointed to it. (Hear, hear.) He did not emir
der that as a sufficient argument why the Council should
increase his salary. He did admit that too freqUent
applications had come in from so many officers of the
Council that it was rather hard for them all to have an
increase granted to them. In deference, however, to the
opinion of the bench of magistrates, he thought that a
slight increase should be made in Mr. Roberts's salary.
In the present case he thought that there was some
ground for having the request of the applicant complied
with. an order to show that the Council did not think
that the increase asked for was reasonable, and also to
recognise the recommendation of the magistrates, he would
move, as an amendment, that the salary of Mr. Roberts
be increased from £l3O to £l5O, instead of £2ooi per
annum,

One of the members of the Council remarked that
that sum would scarcely be sufficient.
Mr. JOB then said that he would move that the salary
be increased from £l3O to £l6O per year.
Mr. ASPINALL—I beg to second it. . .
Mr. Alderman PARKER would sup Port the recommen-
dation of the magistrates. Ile believed that‘many of
their officials had not sufficient salary allowed them to
live in a position commensurate with the situation they
held. Re would, however, agree with Mr. Braniley-
Moore that each applioant should rest upon his own
merits, (near, bean): Tie should tote for the £2OO
being granted to Mn Roberts:
. . ,
The MAi.COR *dial to observe, that at the early part
Of the proceedings, he had stated that.the matter now
under. discuision gtood over from the previous Council,
but on examination of the books,, it appeared that this
was not the case, .and,it now for the first time came on
for debate;; and eeordiiigly, by the Standing order ,of
.cil, .
the Council, it should remain over for another meeting.'
(Laughter.) lie regretted very much to have stated a
contrary fact at the beginninc, of the meeting, especially
as all the discussion which had in consequence ensued
might have 'been saved. (Rear, hear.)
_ Mr. JOB—We have, therefore, had our discussion all

for nothing. (Laughter.)
Mr, BnAMI.EY-MOORE observed that this would give
an opportunity to the other. officials, especially those
mentioned by Mr. Aspinall, to apply simultaneously at
the next meeting of the Council, for an increase of
salaries, (Laughter:)
Mr. Alderman Ttngtn said that, as the Ooiitteil
c4orri4,immeiril4dration of the ,magistrates„ -he Sup-)
thought prdpef to.aclOpt that with {he previous
posedinotion tohra,pp ie ptittited
referelo. to
,tti6turd dlldil ing, i , !--TiteComtrindation.
4PPOtitltr. ROlOort ltasen •as an. assistant book-
keeper,,in thelre4sarier'al office, salary Of per
annuli-I'44d teWtas; d'et#o at .t2Ol per an-
"th.--%ornmenelation to increase the salaries of Mr.
M. Hutton, chief clerk in the Treasurer's office; from
£2OO to £250 per annum; Mr. B. T. Owen, second
clerk, from £l3O to £l6O per annum; and Mr. D. M.
Brown, clerk and collector, from £l5O to £175 per
annum. He' then said that the next thing they had to
consider was—the recommendation to suspend the stand-
ing order Of the Council, numbered 40, and to sell the
Niece of land on tlrv„gatith side of Daleistreet,..betTe;l
Sir Thomas sulldipgs and,Cr,osshall,street, by Pru)Ate
contract:, 'He moved .that that recommendation be
adopted and,confirmelby.the Council.
Mr. Alderman Cooper seconded.

Mr. JEFFERY wante (lc to :know ,•what resolution or
depision had:bepn ,Come to respecting. the recommenda-
tions, Nos: and •3, on. the notice paper.,
The Mayor replied that the question had teen put to
the Council, according to his views, and it was decided
when Mr. Alderman Turner proceeded with the recom-
mendation No. 4.

Mr. GLADSTONE contended that the gentlemen who
sat in his vicinity did not distinctly hear what had fallen
from Mr. Alderman Turner, and they did not hear him
allude at all to the recommendations Nos. 2 and 3.

Mr. Alderman BENNETT said he sat opposite to Mr.
Turner, and heard him diAinctly, say that he supposed
the same course would be pursued with recommenda-
tions 2 and 3 as had been adopted with No. 1.
Alter some furthei desultory cdiifefsatidii, the 'natter
dropped: •' ,
Mr. Aldernian fiiropt, iif Uickving the ctin&mation
of the recommendtion, observed that it was thought
desirable by•the Finance Committee to sell the property
by private contract, and also to suspend the
.standing
order of the Council. • , •
Mr. PICTON asked if the two recommendations in
No. 4 could not be taken separately.
The Mayor replied that one was consequent 'on the
other.

Mr. JEFFERY remarked that at the last monthly
meeting a special committee was appointed for the
purpose of considering the erection of buildings for the
use of the public offices connected with the corporate
business: That committee had, met, but there would he
no report brought before. the 'Connell that day. The
prodeedings di the COnnitittee,Wduld be read in dde
coni.se'' but tit as as stated there 'that day. The
special committee considered the subject of such vast
importance that they asked his Worship to be good
enough to' refer it to a committee, and they would 'see
that the question now before them formed, yart of that
which had been referred to the special committee. He
moved that the standing order be not suspended, but
that the question be referred, together 'with the ques-
tion which the special committee was called-upon to
consider, to the committee, which would be more satis-
factory than foi the Council to consider it that day.
Mr. Shimmin second©d the amendment of Mr.
Jeffery.
Mr. Alderman PARKER considered that a 'very advan-
tageous offer had been made to the Council for the sale
of the. land, and he believed by disposing Of it they.
would be benefittinc, the town at large. .
Mr. MOZLEY said he had no objection to the whole
question standing ever till the report of the special com-
mittee Was laid before the. Council. 'He trusted that the
offer made to the Finance Committee *mild be an
advantageous one to the 'corporate estate.
Mr. PlaioN said that in the whole course of his life
he had never heard anything brought forward for the
purpose of suspending the operations of an ordinary
custom or law Of the Council in a more meagre manner
tha# on that occasion, when they were asked- to' dispose
of pieces of land, the quantity of which, and the price for
which, ..they' knew nothing about. They
.bad had no
reason at ail given to them for suspending the standing
orders.

Mr. SHIMMIN supported the amendment, and after a
few observations from other members of the Council,
the Mayor ptit the amendment to the vote of the
Council, when 'the following voted for and against it
Pot-Councillors John lohn Stitt; Daniel Crosthwaite,
James Crellin, Roger Haydock, John Shimmiu, William
Johnson, Oliver Holden, William Barton, J. Steams,
C. T. Bowring, J. Rogers, R. Gladstone, J. A. Picton,
J. R. Jeffery, F. A. Clint, R. M. Beckwith, J. W.
Cropper, Thomas Vernon.
Against—The Mayor ; Aldermen W. Bennett, James
Parker; J. Cooper, J. H. Turner, R. C. Gardner, J.
Bramley-Moore, J. Woodruff; Councillors R. Shell, C.
Aspinall, J. Tyrer, C. Turner, T. Avison, E. Estill,
D. Rae, IL C. Beloe, W. P. Jeffreys, J. H. Wilson,
T. B. Job, J. A. Tobin, C. Mozley, W. Earle, J.
Johnson, G. Nickson, J. Kitchen, J. Farnworth, S.
Siddeley, J. Steel, J. G. Livingston.
Alderman Turner then moved the remaining recom-
mendations upon the paper, for the purchase of different
small plots of land required for purpOseS of Public
improvement; and also approval of the revised scale of
pew rents for St. Michael's and St. Luke's churches.;,
These having been confirmed, Alderman Turner -next
moved the confirmation of the general proceedings.
Mr. BELon said he observed from the minutes that
Josias Booker had applied for the commutation of a
lease for £1,4587, and that the committee had recom-
mended that such commutation should take place on
the usual terms. .Now it was understood that nothing
of the kind should be done unless specially brought
before the Council.
Alderman TURNER said he could give no information
with respect to it.
Mr. JEFFERY—Am I to understand that Mr. Turner
has moved the confirmation of proceedings which he
knows nothing about ; that he as the organ of the
Finance Committee asks us to approve of proceedings
which he has never read?
Alderman TURNER—YOU are perfectly aware that I
was called upon unexpectedly. I was not aware that I
should have to move the confirmation of the proceedings
till I entered the room.
The Clerk read the entry referred to. Mr. Booker's
property, it appears, is in Church-street and Postoifice-
place.
.• • •--
hanirrnally negatived the commutation of fines for the
future; and he had asked the question then whether the
Council intended to proceed to , rescind the resolution
which now stood upon their books. The Town-clerk
then ktated that it was not competent for the Council
then, to rescind such a resolution, but that notice of
motion would be required to be given. Now be had
waited patiently to see whether the Finance Committee
themselves would take action to rescind that resolution,
that the Council might be in.the same position as before
it passed. ' But the Council having expressed its desire
that no commutation should take place, except in par-
ticular cases, to be specially brought before the Council,
it appeared to him that the commutation principle was
to be carried out against the pleasure of the majority of
the Council; and as it could not be done fairly and on
its own merits, it was to be done by a side-wind. He
had denounced from the first the commutation of fines
as financially bad ; and he said more, it was a piece of
gross injustice to the present ratepayers. Ho felt
strongly upon the subject, because he had reason. to
know that there were certain gentlemen upon the
Finance Committee who had a crotchet in their heads,
and which by fair means; or such means as they conld
resort to, they were determined 'to carry out. They
seemed determined to carry the Council by a coup d'etat.
He hoped, however, the Council would pause before
adopting the principle of Commuting fines upon any
property whatever.
Five gentlemen here rose simultaneously, Messrs.
Earle, C. Turner, Parker, -Tobin, and Mozley. The
Mayor .called upon
Mr. MOZLEY, who deprecated the 'strong language
he sich
aid, ern. the Jefferyp part hadt
o de
theo g Ca
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inne itl
heaitt Ch
ar y byw haa t e
to
hupe y deo' eut
la
dt
noort
otherwiseused.theThereCommittee
d,easocats
pThneulciharaiim view an
fo fthtehme
aFttienra, nbcuet Committeehscal knowledge
ov
r
edengae
and sound judgment should relieve him from the charge
of cherishing crotchets; and he maintained that it was
neither fair nor just, in that gentleman's absence, for
terms to be made use of which would be considered
scarcely courteous had he been present.
Mr. TOBIN, entertaining a different view to that of
Mr. Jeffery, as to the commutation of fines, must deny
that the Council ever came to such a conclusion as he
stated to negative proposals for the commutation of fines.
All that was agreed upon was, that cases of the sort
should be- openly and prominently brought before the
Council in future. He had no doubt a notice would
have appeared on the Council summons had the Town-
clerk been at the meeting.
Mr. MozmY said it was the impression of thise 'oebojeme-t
mittee that it would have so, aPpeared.
Mr. BE stated that after that admission, h
had been served, if Mr. Turner would consent to its
standing over till next month.
Alderman PARKER said if there was one act more
cowardly than another, it was to attack a man behind
his back.

Mr. JEFFERY said he had not attacked any indi-
vidual.

Alderman PARKER said Mr. Jeffery used strong
language, and would attack either individuals or com-
mittees, just as suited his purpose. He bad told Mr.
Turner that he knew nothing about what he •was
moving—that he was an ignoramus.
The language he
had used was derogatory to the Council.
In answer to a question by Mr. Charles Turner, the
Town-clerk said on yeferring to the rough minutes of
the commitee meeting on tie 23rd, he observed that a
tick, as us ual,had been placed by the chairman opposite to
the entry as to Mr. Booker's lease. He had no doubt
it had been omitted by accident on his part.
Mr. C. TURNER said the only object in the com-
mutation of fines was to allow a man to pay an increased
annual payment instead of money down. As it amounted
to £4 17s. 6d. in the £lOO, with the exception of 41 per
cent.; which went to re-coup the amount of the fine,
it was a profitable investment.
Alderman BRAMLEY-MOORE also spoke briefly on the
subject. As to a side-wind, or the wish to cloak any-
thing, it was too ridiculous to comment upon. The
Finance Committee, it was well known, had no inten-
tion to smuggle anything through the Council. go