The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1872-03-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

In the Home of Lortle, March IS, In reply to the tail of
Ilalmeebury, _

Earl Granville, who was almost Instidible, was understood
t say that be had received front 6eneral Schenck a copy of
• despaich from the Anterivalt Government. That despatch
appeared to Invite an atiswer front the British Government.
liner these circumstances, It was impossible for him to state
thedinte at which the corrcopunience would be produced or
what was the present state of the negotiations. lie could
assure their lordships that the anxiety in reference to this
matter which was felt by the public was shared by the
Governmer.it, who were scare of the responsibility that
rested 0..-d them.
I.'ord Colville of Culross asked whether certain officers who
•;gere gazette II as ensigns and lieutenants in the brigade of
tluards on the 31st irtober, IS7I, uho have performed the
ditties attached to that rank shier that date, and have bees
presented to her Majesty as commissioned officers Lensigns
and lieutenants In the Guards) by the colonels of their re-
spective regiments, are to be depri veil of the ircommissions and
seduced to the rank of sublieutenant.

. -
The Marquis ot Ripon had been requeste by The Secretary
IWar to state the potion isi of the case. he officers to
Whom the noble lord had alluded received their appoint-
ment, subject to the new arrangements that might be made,
ant they had signed a docidnent in which they accepted that
condition. What had been done was to apply the new
arrangements to them. lie was requested to say that
those Olken. who had been gazetted would retain their
titles and weul,l not lose the honorary rank to which they
had attabed.

A short discussion followed, after which their lordships
adjourned.

iii ti.e House of Commons, Mr. Raikes gave notice of his
itite;dion to ask leave to bring In a bill for the punblonent
libel, and for the better protection of private character.
Mr. Bruce, replying to Mr. Locke, said that a licenaing bit
had been drawn up by the Home Office, but he could not
State a hen it would be introduced. It was Lot true that any
copies had been issued.

Mr. Bernal Osborne asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether the announcement contained in the papers relative
to the pension granted to the widow of the late Viceroy of
India was correct, and if that were the only provision con-
templated by her Majesty's Government.

Mr. Gladstone said that he had had no official comm mica-
tin on the subject from the Council of India, and the noble
lord the Chh:f Secretary nan not In Ms place owing to indis-
position ; hut he believed it was true that the vote stated
by the papers to-day bad been granted by the Indian Govern-
ment, and no other question of provision had been raised.
lie understood thaL the provision for Lady Elgin was £2,000
year, one half of which was from Imperial resources on
account of Lord Elgin having discbarg.l many diplomatic
duties for the Imperial Government. It seemed to him,
therefore, that the present provision was larger than that
made for Lady Elgin.

--------
Mr. Gladstone having answered the previous question,
proceeded to say :—I will take this opportunity of com-
pleting my reply to a question put by the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Buckinghamshire on Fn day last. The
reply of the Government of the United States to the com-
munication id Lord Granville, dated the 3rd February, is
dated the 27th February, and was placed in the hands
of Lord Granville on the evening of the lath March.
This reply from the American Government is couched
in courteous and friamlly terms It does not adopt
our views, and in the opinion of the Government
it requires an answer, which, Indeed, the Government
of the United States appeared to anticipate and to invite.
The dispatch or letter, as I believe it should be termed, con-
taining this reply on the part of her Majesty'. Government
will, as we hope, be sent to the American Minister in time
for one of his usual modes of communication with his Govern-
ment—that is to say, on or before Thursday next. I understood
the right hon. gentleman to have put a mu stion auto the mode
which the Government of the Queen though the most conve-
nient of dealing with this despatch with respect to laying it
before the two Houses uf Parliament, and I ventute to say it
would not, in our opinion, he consistent with the public interest
that the incomplete correspondence which has taken place
should be laid befoie Parliament at the present time. With
respect loan apprehension which he appeared to express,
that it would be a matter of necessity for Parliament to
deliberate upon the subject of the Treaty of Wash-
ington with regard to some decisive issue before the
15th or some other day of April. I have to observe that
It would be premature to assume at the present stage that
there will of necessity be any interruption at or before that
date in the proceedings contemplated by the treaty. As
respects the production of the documents, both the House of
Representatives in America and the Senate of the United
States—which as the House is aware, occupies a peculiar and
authoritative position in respect to the ratification of trea-
ties—both these bodies, as we understand, declined to call
Upon the President for any information as to the tenor of
his communications with the British Government, and we
both hope and anticipate that the House of Commons
will, nailer the existing circumstances, observe a similar
forbearance. We shall, on our part, be most desirous to
give any information we possess to Parliament, at the cattiest
moment which the public interest will permit I have only
to add, Sir, that while upon the one hand Ise continue to be
most anxious to carry out the treaty of Washington ; on
the other, I trust we shall be found not to fail in that sense
which the State and the nature of the case, and the honour
of this country may demand

_
tin ening into Comruitteecf Supply on the Naval Estimates,
Mr. Corry called attention to what he considered had been
the niisehievous effects of Mr. Childers' changes at the
Admiralty, and moved a condemnatory rreolution. Basing
Ininself chiefly on the evidence given before the Megan.°
Commission, from which he made copious extracts, Mr.
Corry, indicated the numerous points in which he conceived
Mr. Childers' echeme had failed. He approved what had been
done to assure the supremacy of the First Lord, but under the
new system he had not suelcient means of obtaining pro-
fessional advice. In like nianner he condemned the eleva-
tion et the Controller to be a memner of the Board, the
contraction of the Parliamentary Secretary's duties, the
position of nullity to which the Permmient Secretary had
been reduced, and other minor changes which had made
,nfusion worse confounded " in the department, and
he urged Mr. lioschen at once to retrace his predecessor's
steps.
After remarks from several other hon. members,

Mr. Childers commenced his defence by expressing his
Tf;:ret that lie should have to make it in so thin a House (there
were not more than a dozen members present. Premising
that w hen he undertook his reforms he was conscious of the
difficulty if his task and the possibility of failure. Mr. Childers
ref nod to the trineipal Naval debate since Sir James Gra-
ham's changes (1832) to prove that all Naval reformers in and
out of the House had recommended the creation of a respon-
sible Minister of Marine, and had regarded the Board
arrangements with disfavour, and also that they re-
commended that the Controller should have a seat at the
Bokril if there were to be a Board. All his reforms were
made in concert with his colleagues, and it was not until he
came into collision first with one aid then with another that
their partiality for a Hoard revived. A consultative council
the )'nest Lord ought to have, but to submit all the
current business to • Board was • waste of time, and
destructive of progress and promptitude. Ur. Childers
admitted that there were shortcomings in his scheme,
—for instance, there was a scant of permanence in
the Heads of Departments—and, with regard to the much
criticized re-arrangements of the Secrstal at and other minor
arningeruents, he pointed out that he was prevented from
completing them by his illness. Ile claimed for his changes
generally that they had been as successful as he had expected,
anal that they would be appreciated by the country. But for
them the numer us improvements lie hail effected in the
condition of the Navy, its increased efficiency, aud more
economical management, could not have been carried out.

I.ord 11. Lennox denied that Mr Childers' Naval reforms
had been so successful as he boasted. He eulogized the
Board. system, contending that whatever shortcomings at-
tended it could be remedied without destruction.

Mr. Goschen admitted that experience had shown modi-
fications to be necessary in Mr. Childers system of adminis-
tration, but Ile thoroughly agreed with its essential principles
—the division of the Admiralty into departments, the
Separate performance of work, and the possibility of tracing
what every man did. It would be unwise to go back to
the old Board, but no First Lord could, get on with-
out . professional advice, and as a guarantee, there-
fore,' for consultation, there would hereafter be regular
meetings of the board for the consideration of professional
and technical business. Mr. Gosehen went on to explain in
detail the further changes which he proposes to make at the
Admiralty. The Controller will cease to be a member of
the Board, and will be restored to his former position of a
permanent official, being relieved from the too heavy pressure
of work on hhn by the apppointment of a Deputy-Controller
or Director of Dockyards. The Controller will have a right to
attend the Board when his designs are discussed, and steps
will he taken generally to improve the states of the scien-
tific officials. On the personnel side of the office the Chief of
the Staff will be abolished, an additional Sea Lord will be
appointed in the Controllo 's place, and a Naval Secretary
will be created. As to the Parliamentary Secretary, though
he will be mainly resi onsible for finance, he will no longer
be confined to that branch, but will reprerent the Depart-
ment with a full knowledge of all the business before it.
Sir J. Elphinstone sviahed to have the debate adjourned,
anti premed a motion to that effect to a division ; but was
beaten by 00 to 23. After this he gave way on the under-
standing that the general discussion may be renewed in Com-
mittee either on vote I or vote 3. Mr. Corry's motion was
negatived, and the Estimates were adjourned until Thursday.
The Master and Servant (Wages) hill was read a second
time. The other orders were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at 20 minutes past 2 o'clock.

TI3 the Home of Lords, March 19, Lord Derby gave notice
that on Friday he'woold ask the Foreign Secretary for an
explanation of the policy of the Government in regard to the
Treaty of Wuhington. _ _ .

Lord Redesdaie also gave notice of a Resolution on the
Alabama Claims, to be moved on a future day.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, in moving the second
reading of the Acts of Uniformity Amendment Bill, said
that the recommendations of the Ritual Commission might
be divided into two parts—those which could he carried
Into effect by general consent, and lip two or three simple
alterations in the Act of Uniformity, and those which
required an alteration in the Rubric, and upon which
great diversity of opinion prevailed. The bill, which
dealt only with the former category, was founded
upon the necessity of some missionary effort to reach the
masses of our population. It provided a short form lit Service
for week days; a special Service on occasions of deliver-
ance Aim sickness, harvest thanksgivings, etc. ; a third
L'ttl.B'.'4"o7;,dtirieer`g,f)r,';ni.Molc7nain a:d honing '‘.'"mi nogr Pe
r 'of rr:
iniffhonafy cherra.der • a perinksiele division of the Sunday
meriting Service by the omission of tlio Litany or the
Communion Service ; and, lßally, it extends to parish
churches the liberty enjoyed by the Universities of a sermon
being preached preceded only by a Collect or the Bidden
Prayer. These special Services were to be under the sanction
of the Bishdp, and the short Service was set forth in the
schedule. These changes had received the hearty concur.
retice bah of the clergy and laity, and they weuld, he
trotted, enable the Church to minister more effectually to
the spiritual necessities of the people.
Lord Shaftesbury bailed this bill as an instalment of the
deeper and more searching ref..rins necessary in the Churlh.
Ile hoped that the bill would not permit the Ordinary to
Interdict Evening Communion.
The Bishop of London sail that great doubts were enter-
tained both as to the legality and the expediency of Evening
Communion.
The bill was read a second time.

The Bishops Resignation Continuance Bill was, on the
motion of the Archbishop of Canterbury, read a second
time.

The Most Rev. Primate then moved the second reading of
the Deans and Canons' Resignation Lill, which applies
to Cathedral authorities the provisions of the Act for regu-
lating the resignation of the Bishops. Adverting to the
rec.:ea conferences of the Bishops, Deans, and Canons
at Lunbeth, no said that only one spirit had been
evinced, to make our Cathedrals more generally use-
ful. At thelast meeting there find been some diversity of
opinion as to an appeal to Parliament to alter o2rtaiu
ohm fete Cathedral statutes, but the Deans and Chapters
were sensible id the great duties they were called upon to
perform, and these appointments wero by no means to be
regarded an sinecures.
The bill was reads second time

Lord Komilly moved the mould reading nf the Marriaces
(Society 01 Friends) Bill, which was opposed by Lord Cairns
on the ground that it would open the door to an altoration
In the marriage law in regard to all except members of the
Established Chureh Um. a Diviaion, the second reading
was carried Sty a majority of one in a thin Rouse : Lord
Stanhope complaining, on coming from the lobby, that no
arrangement had been made for taking the Division by
clerks or voting papers.
Lord Chelmsford called attention to the Report of the
Marriage Law Cominiesicn, presented in lem. Glancing at
the labours of the Commission. of which he was Chairman,
the evidence elected, and the conclusion at which they
arrived—namel7, the advantage of making the marriage
fa% of the United Kingdom uniform—he complained that
nothing had been done.
The Lord Chancellor bore testimony to Lord Chelmsford's
Miaow labours on the C0M1211.1011, but defended the Govern-
Malt siphil the grounds that their hands were full, and that
they were chargeable with bringing In too many measures
rather than too few.
Lord Lyveden asked why a Marriage Taw Amendment
Fill had not been brought in during the early part of the
Bowdon, when their Lordships had so little to 110. The Go.
comment could pass nothing but sensational measures now.
Lord Ripon pointed out that a Government which had

carried an unation Bill and an Endowed Schools Bill, and
was now engaged upon a Mines' Regulation Ball and a Sanitary
Bill. svas not fairly chargeable with bringing iu only sensa-
tional measures.

Their Lordships then adjourned.
In the House of Commons, Sir Charles Dilke's attack on
the Civil l.i+t attracted the largest House of the Session.
Pretty nearly every seat in the body of the House had its
occupant at the thne of prayers, and the Peers' and other
galleries were closely Mica. Before the business of the
evening began,
_ .

Mr Disraeli gave notice that after Eater he will call
attention to the state of our relations with the United States,
Mr. Graves gave notice that on an early day after Easter
he would .11 attention to the effect of the re,ent naviga-
tion laws of France upon British shipping, and more a reso-
lution.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, replying to Mr. Harvey
Lewis, said that he had come to no resolution In regal d to
amp alteration in the mode of assessing and collec:ing the
income tan, but if he did so, due notice bhould be given.
Mr. Horsman asked Mr. Gladstone for a pledge that no
future proposition made for the settlement of the din erence
shall be accepted as final until Parliament has had an op-
portunity of expressing au opinion on it. Alr. Gladstone,
however, decliued on the ground that he had not been able
to consult his colleagues on the point, whereupon Mr.
Moraine!' gave notice that he would repeat the question the
following day.
Sir C. Dilke having risen to introduce the motion of which
he had given notice relating to the Civil List,
Lord Bury said Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to a question
of privilege. I hold in nip hand a copy of the oath which is
taken by every hon, member of this House, and it Is in these
terms :—"/tie swear that I trill be faithful, anti bear true
allegiance to Her Majcbto Queen Victoria, her heirs and sue-
cessors,according to law so help me God." On the 21 tot Nov.
last the hon. membi r for Chelsea is reported to have said that
he himself would make no concealment of the fact that he was
a Republican. (opposition cheer.) He is reported as speaking
exactly to the same effect in several other newspapers. The
question I have put to you, sir, as a point of order, is
whether those two statements are not somewhat Irreconcil
able--(cheers)—and whether, if the last statement of the
lion, baronet is not explained and repudiated, he will not have
been guilty of an Infringement of the solemn declaration
taken at the table of the House ? (" Oh, oh," and cheers.) I
am fortified iv my reasons for answering the question by the
tact that every item of the return which the hon, baronet
halms to move for Can be found in the Library of this House,
and is within the reach of every lion. member. The motion,
therefore, can only be, as it seems to me, a colourable method
of repeating—Cheers from the Opposition, which drowned
the conclusion of the sentence.)
Mr. A. Herbert Mr. Speaker, I Ilse to order. (Cries of
Order.")
The Speaker Lord Bury is in possession of the House.
(Cheers.)

Mr. A. Herbert Rusin rem but speedily est down amid
repeated cries of "Order."

Lord Bury : I beg, air, to ask whether it is not ter the
honour of this House, or within the power of this Howe,
bef..re hearing the hon. baronet the member for Chelsea, to
ask him whether he repudiates or acknowledges the state-
ment which he is reported to have made on the 21st of No-
vember last. (Hear, hear.,
The Speaker : The noble lord has called my attention to
the oath of allegiance taken by hon, members of this ileum.
I apprehend that it is no part of my duty to say what is con-
sistent, or what is not consistent, with that oath-.(hear,
hear)—but looking at the terms of the motion proposed by
the hon. baronet, I do not for my part see in it any violation
of that oath. (Cheers.)
Sir C. Dilke, on rising, was received with a faint cheer from
a few gentlemen abaut hint, and with loud groans from the
Opposition. He began by disclaiming all intention of going
into the wider question raised by Lord Bury his aim waste
show that Parliament hail a general and special right
to inquire into the management of the Civil List, and
that there ought to be such an inquiry. In support
of his first contention, he quoted a variety of
precedents, from 1762 downwards—though, even if there
were DO precedents, Parliament shonlet create one—and he
argued that inquiriea at the beginning eta reign, when alone
they were now made, were insufficient and futile. The object
of such an inquiry was not to destroy the vestel interests of
the holders of sirrecur es and unnecessary °Mee., but to pre-
vent new interests being created, and to facilitate the next
settlement of the Civil List. But precedent's for inter-
fering with the arrangements made at the beginning of the
reign had been created by what he called •• resump-
tions by the Crown," such as the sums charged on the Esti-
mates for the conveyance of members of the Royal family,
entertainment of Royal guests, the grant of the Lodges in the
Royal Parks to individuals, Etc. Passing on to explain the
nature of the returns he intended to move for, Sir Charles
dwelt on the importance of obtaitung correct information
auto the expeudlture of the Ci vil List and the savings on it,
which he asserted could neither legally nor in policy be
transf reed to the Privy Puree. On this part of his subject and
for the purpose of illuntrating the obscurity and irregularities
of the Civil List a,counts and the failure of those responsible no
comply with the Civil List Act, he entered into a lengthy
and complicated examination of the Exchequer accounts
from the boginiring of the reign. Next, he discussed
the character of the Hereditary Revenues and of the
Duchy of Lancaster, maintaining that they are public
property, and that the present arrangement is an
inconvenient fiction. At this part of his speech Sir
Charles withdrew his statement that the Queen paid
no Income Tax, expressing his regret that he had
been misled. He gave various reasons in support of the
opportunentrakarf the inquiry during the present reign—the
public belief That the Sovereign had accumulated large
savings: the grants to the Princesses, which he asserted
were entirely unprecedented ; and the secrecy maintained
In respect of Royal Wills, which made it impossible to ascer•
tam n the Sovereign's private fortune. The only two objec.
Lions to it were the alleded decrease of the Cirri List, awn the
absence of all demands on account of dcids ; but the first,
he asserted, was not true, slid the sen 0.. d was irtelevant.
Finally, he urged the importance of granting the irepury iii
view of the impression which prevailed that und, r the
shadow of the Crown- large 10.11D3 were wasted —tour limited
space precludes us from giving more than the foregoing out-
line of the hon. member's speech.]
When Sir Charles sat down there was a cry for a Division,
but

Mr. Gladstone rose, and touching first on the statement that
the inquiries into the Civil List at the beginning of the reign
were useless, reproached sir Charles with some warmth for
careless investigation into his facts. The Committee which
sat at the bepiuning of this reign had made a careful investi-
gation, and the Civil List showed a very large reduction on
the ta o former reigns. Of Sir Charles's figures, he
observed that they left a very confused impression on
the mind, and he complained that he had not furnished the
Government with particulars, although he had been re-
quested beforehand. To go into the charges arising out of
these r.m.unts was quite impossible without notice ; but
they and his observations about sinecures were equally
beside the question, and would Oct bear the inference
which ,ir C. Dilke suggested. As to his motion, some
portion of the information asked for was already be-
fore the House in a different form. Lot, with regard to
the new portion, Mr. Gladstone said it was impossible
to consider it without referring to the inchient is
which the motion originated, fly the unfortunate
speech at Newcastle, Sir Charles has brought the sub-
ject into WI ill-emceed association with proposals to
change the form of our Government, which were nmst re-
pugnant to the great body of tee people. In severely
condemning the circumstances attending this meeting,
Mr. Gladstone was loudly cheered, especially when
he declared that it was Sir C. Dilke's duty, iu
his as-tuned character of a " public instructor," to
have made it clear to his audience that Parliament
was solely responsible for the Civil List, and that the Queen
had nothing to do with the settlement of it. To grant the
motion would be to propagate a belief in the country that
the !louse of Commons had assented to it in direct reference
to the Newcastle speech and as an initiation of the change.
To the creation of such an impression the Government was
unwilling to contribute. EuloAizing her Majesty's faithful
adherence to her compact with the nation, and contrasting it
with former times, Mr. Gladstone mentioned that the
Queen had since the commencement of her reign spent
£OOO,OOO on private pensions, amt he urged the evil pre-
cedent it would set to future Sovereigns if the people at-
tempted to reopen the life bargain. As a matter of policy
and as a matter of grateful duty to the Sovereign, he asked
the House to reject the motion, and without further dis-
cussion. This last suggestion was loudly cheered, and

Mr. A. Herbert theorem to se, end the motion, which was
the commencement of a scene, the like of which has cer-
tainly not been witnessed in the House of Commons for
many years. He was met in the first instance with groans 1
and interruptions. which continued for at least five naiades,
and in which were very distinguishable hisses. It was impos-
sible for the hon. member to get out more than one word at a
time, because whenever he opened his math he was met by
a roar of "Divide, divide," which mostly came from the Con-
senntive benches. After he had thus tried in vain to get a
hearing for a few minutes an hon. member asked the Speaker
whether the hon. member had not already seconded the
motion by moving his hat, but the Speaker said he was in
possession of the ii use. He then again essayed to address
It, but was met by the same interruptl
The Speaker Interposed, and begged the House to give the
hon member a hearing, and he was allowed to proceed for
about a couple of minutes.
The Hon. Member said that his richt hon. friend had al-
luded to a speech made by Sir C. Dilke at Newcastle, and In
supporting the present motion, he wished to express the
regret he felt that his lion, friend did not use more moderate
language on that occasion. He had been accused of making
a personal attack upon her Majesty, bat that was not his
Intention. It had always been the practice of our constitu-
tion to separate the Sovereign from the Ministry.

The House was crowded in every part at the commence-
ment of the speech, but the proceedings were now inter-
rupted by some hundreds of them rising in a body and
leaving amidst the greatest noise and confusion, and there
now only remained seven or eight on the Conservative
benches, and about fifty on the Ministerial. The llinis-
terial bench was I luite full, as also was the bench on that
side below the gangway, and there were about twenty-five
behind.
. . ss

The Hon. Member, however, continued to address those
that remained, and mid that he wished frankly and fairly to
say in the House, as he had said out of it, that he considered
a Republican form of Government better and more reason-
able than that we now had.

This declaration was received with a cry of indignation
from the nu mbers nho had left their seats and crowded
below the bar, In the midst of which
Mr. Guest moved the House be counted. All the Conser-
vative members now left except three, but in, one stirred on
the Ministerial bench, though some few went away from the
benches behind.

The :Speaker counted 40 and the members came crowding
in, but before the hon, member could get out more than
a couple of sentences,
- - - •- -

Lord E. Cecil rose, and with the most ludicrous gravity
said that it appeared to him that the Muse had very much
thinned niece the last attempt to count, and moved that it
110 again counted, amidst laughter and °hears...
"

The glass was turned, and after the lapse of the usual time,
the Speaker again counted, awl found 40 present.
• • • • • •• ^

,
Mr. A. Herbert was then proceeding to say that the Prime
Minister had not answered the arguments of his hon. friend,
when another lion. Member moved a count, and there was
thus the spectacle of the House having been counted three
times in almut ten minutes. This also was unsuccessful, and
the hon, seemlier proceeded with his speech, stating that
when the Home was last attempted to he counted out, he
was approaching the question of the saving alluded to.
Lord Endue Cecil said, "1 espy strangers In the gallery."
The strangers were at oiled °Herta to withdraw, and all
the gslleries except that reserved for ladies, were promptly
cleared. The ladles were the only strangers who were al-
lowed to remain during the whole of the discussion
- • • -- • ••

-
In the absence of our reporters from the Louse, (writes I
the Daily News,) we are enabled to furnish the following
account of the proceedings from a trustworthy source
The interruptions which had taken place during the earlier !
portion of Mr. Herbert's apeech were now redoubled. Con-
servative members withdrew from their usual places in
the House, and took up a position behind the bar, at
the side entrances, and behind the Speaker's chair. At
this time .lr. Henley, Mr. Walpole, and two other gentle-
men were the only members of the Opposition occupying
their usual placem. About 40 Liberal members were present
who took no part, either by applause or interruption, in the
extraordinary scene which we are describing. Frolll the
less prominent parts of the House, to which the Conservative
members had retired, an incessant ciamourarose. Cockcrow-
ing in every variety, from the hoarse cry of the Coehin to the
shrill note of the Bantam. and other farmyard sounds, together
with repeated imitatious of the rise and fall of Mr.
Herbert's voice, prevented a single sentence of the speaker
from reaching the care of those who were assumed to be the
auditors. When the clamour was at its height Mr. Dodson,
nu-king from his usual seat on the Treasury Bench to the
box behind which the Prime Minister ordinarily speaks,
made an animated ant earnest appeal to the Chair, asking
whether ths sounds which issued from behind the Speaker's
chair and from below the bar were not gross violations of
order. The Speaker, in reply, stated that the sounds which
he hod heard, and especially those which had proceeded
from hon. members behind the Chair, were uudoubtedly out
of order In that House, and he could not refrain from ex-
pressing the extreme pain with which he had witnessed the
settee that had recently taken place. In the slight lull which
followed this interposition of the Speaker, Mr. Herbert
announced that if the Howe would listen to him for five
minutes he would undertake to finish his observe-
ns withio that time. Amid considerable interruptions,
involving repeated calls to order on the part of the Chair,
Mr. Llerhert was allowed to proceed but, when, on the
expiration of the flve minutes for which he had stipulated.

he manifested a desire to continue his speech, the clamour
burst.forth afresh with all its former violence: Mr. Her-
bert said that the interruptions which ha.l takaa,placa had
deprived him of • mioute and a half of the time ranted
him, and that if the flouse would give him that minute
and a half he would he content. The Speaker hereupon
rose and called Mr. Herbert to order, stating that it was
irregular and improper to appeal to the House, and that
he ought to address himself to the Chair. Mr. Herbert
then resumed his seat amid the greatest excitement and con-
fusion.

Mr. Mundella said that he was too young to lecture the
House, but had hoped that the scenes which had some.
times been witnessed in France would not have been wit-
nessed here.
Mr. No.,
(arrieil

. Newdegate thought expressions of dissent had been
• let too far. At the same time tile motion was not a bond
motion.
Mr.
the re
Mr.

reporto7B

Dillwyn moved the adjournment on the ground that
porters were not present.
Mandella then said a few words in opposition to the
motion.

Mr. Dillwyn move Ithe adjournment of the House, and at
this p tnt strangers were re-admitted a few minutes before
zdne o clock.

The nurnbers were—Ayet, 23 Noes, 261 ; majority against
the motion, 238.

Mr. Fawcett said he fully conceded his honourable friend's
right to discuss the Civil List, and if he had brought forward
his motion last year it should have bad his support. Now,
however, his motion could not be disconnected from
a speech which hat been made during the recess,
and that speech bad very much resembled a personal
attack on the Queen. Ile claimed for his friend the right
of discussing, not only the Civil List, but even the form
of government, and he could tell the Conservative party
that if they attempted to stop free diseussian, as they had
attempted to do that evening, the Republicans would look
upon them as the most useful allies. Re was bound to say,
however, that he disapproved of a great deal of the matter
and spirit of the speech If his lion. friend, which 09 out of
10 persons would accept as applying personally to the Sove-
reign. All he could say was, that if he held a public position
and was similarly attacked, he should have felt himself to be
made the °bp ct of charges which lie was bound to disprove.
Ile was as anxious to have the Civil List inquired into as
his hon, friend, but for the reasons lie had stated he could
not support the motion.
51r. Liddell denied that the Conservative party had at-
tempted to still° discussion.
Sir C. Pilke, in reply, contended that the Prime Minister
had not disproved a single one of his statements, all of
which were based on the best precedents. lie should go to
a division, no matter huw few members followed Sim into
the lobby.

The Rouse divided—
Fur the motion
Agaiust it

276-274

The ennohnearnent was received with laughter and cheers.
The Municipal Corporations (Borough Funds) Bill was read
a second time, after a short conversation, and ordered to be
referred to a Select Committee.
The Salmon Fisheries 11111 was referred to a Select Com-
mittee, and the /louse adjourned.

In the House of Commons, March 20, Mr. Horsman asked
the First Lard of the Treasury whether he could give an
assurance to the House that, with reference to the Alabama
Treaty, no new proposals shall be made or accepted by the
British Government as binding on this country until they
should have been made known to Parliament, and an oppor-
tunity afforded for an expression of its opinion upon them.
Ile added that flit were convenient to the Government that
the answer should be limited to the terms of the despatch
just going out, he would be quite content with such an an-
swer until after the next meeting of the Cabinet.

Mr. Gladstone expressed his appreciation of the courteous
offer of the hon. gentleman, but he did not feel him-
self under any necessity of accepting that offer. Although
he had not hail an opportunity of formal consultation with
the whole of his colleagues, he thought himself able to state
generally what were the views of the Government.
lie was not able to give the promise the right honourable
gentleman asked, though he was not disposed to deny
the right of Parliament to be informed of the spirit, aim,
and direction of the policy of the Government. Parliament
had already been informed, through the medium of the
Queen's Speech, and of the discussions in the two Houses, of
the spirit, sins, and direction, and of the leading propositions
on which the Government hail founded itself. Were there to
be any alteration in that spirit, aim, and direction, so far as
he could meet the demand of the right hon. gentleman it
would be the duty of the Government to make Parlia-
ment aware of the fact ; but after the declarations
that had already been made he did not think it was
possible to meet the demand of the right hon. gentle-
man. As regarded the avowed opinion of several lion.
members that there should be a limitation of the
powers of the Crown with respect to the acceptance of
treaties there was much to be said on both sides ; but the
present question went much farther than that, for it asked
that nothing should he proposed in the course of this neg.-
elation without the prior assent of Parliament, and without
its prior promulgation to the world, and without a certain
lapse of time. Ile did not hesitate to Bay that if it were the
view of the House—whieh he did not believe was the case
the.. this question should not be answered in the affirmative,
it would reduce the position of any Government charged with
an international negociation to sucha state that it would be far
better that the Houses of Parliament should conduct diplo-
matic negotiations by means of committees. If errors might
be made under the present system, success and the avoidance
of error would become absolutely impossible under such a
system as that. He would repeat the request which he
made yesterday, that the right hon. gentleman would not
suppose that the answer which he had given was given in
reference to the despatch that was about to be sent to the
American Minister.

31r. Horsmaa said that his meaning was that there should
be no variation in the terms of settlement without Parlia-
ment having the same power as that possessed by the Senate
of the United States.

Lord John Manners said that he wished to ask whether
the House was to understand from the answer of the
right h.. gentleman that the dispatch which WAS
being sent that day was based on the Fame principle,
and went upon the same lines, as the declarations made
in the House of Commons by the right hon. gentleman?
Mr. Gladstone thought that the words which he had used
conveyed a distinct understanding, and an answer to the
noble lord's question—viz., that if there were any altera-
tion in the spirit, aim, and direction of the policy of the
Government, it would be a matter of primary duty that
Parliament should be made aware of it.

Mr. Fawcett moved the second reading of the Vniversity
Tests (Dublin) Bill, which was seconded by Mr. Plunkett.

_
Mr. Syrian moved the following amendment :—" That
this House, though desirous of dealing with the subject
of university education in Ireland, is of opinion
that any measure relating to that question should
be established upon a secure and permanent binds,
and for that purpose should be brought in upon
the responsibility of her Majesty's Government, and that no
measure of university education in Ireland can Ile sat isfac-
tory, just, or permanent which does not afford to all her
Majesty's subjects in that country the right of attaining
university degrees without the violation of their conscien-
tious opinions."
The amendment was seconded by the O'Conor Don.
The olcbate was ctutinued until the O'Donoghne moved
its adjournment. when the House divided—Ayes, 24 ; Noes,
241; Majority. 257.
The motion was therefore lost, but it then being past a
quarter to six, the discussion had, by the rules of the House,
to he suspended. The other orders were disposed of, and
the House adjourned.