The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-08-09 00:00:00

WATER. COMMITTEE.

Mr. JErrEaY in moving the confirmation of the pro-
ceedings of this committee said that there was nothing
of importance in connection with this committee except
the application for a special committee with reference to
the fire at the Stanley-lock warehouses. When the
committee had enquired into the matter they would
report, and it would not be right to anticipate the result
of the enquiry, he might say that the committee had
been summoned to meet this afternoon at 2 o clock.

THE REVIEW AT KNOWSLEY.

Among the mayor's communications was a letter from
Lord Derby asking tho mayor to use his influence to
get a holiday or half-holiday on Saturday the Ist of
September to enable the volunteers to attend the review
at Knowsley on that day. _ .

The MAYOR said that as Lord Derby purposed to give a
splendid and delightful treat not only to the voltinteers of
this town, but he understood he intended throwing open his
park to the public, he need scarcely say that he hoped the
public would do all in their power to carry out Lord
Derby's wishes, and to give effect to what, in his opinion,
was a very liberal offer. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARKER hoped that every man in the employ of
the Corporation, and who was in any of the volunteer
corps, would be allowed half a holiday, and he hoped
would have the support and approval of that Council. It
would, he had no doubt, have a good effect throughout the
length and breadth of the town, in which he was sure
there was the right spirit.
Mr. GARDNER said he :would second Mr. Parker's
proposition.

Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE—I believe that any such
proceeding on the part of the Council will he an illegal
appropriation of the public monies. If there are those
in the employ of the Corporation who were volunteers
let them ask permission—let them inform their
respective employers that they are going to take half
a holiday, and by all means let them have the half-
holiday, but at their own expense, and not at mine.
I did not quite understand, sir, just now, whether
you spoke in your individual capacity as a member
of the council, or whether you spoke as miyor of this
corporation, because unless you spoke individually, the
expression of your opinion would appear to me to be
premature. There is no subject which seems more
calculated to excite the deepest interest than this move-
ment of volunteers, which in my opinion, and I presume
I have a right to that opinion, is calculated to demoralise
and injure the people of this country to an extent which
few at this moment are disposed to believe. I know
for a fact where theft has been committed in consequence
of this movement. I know for a fact that the greatest
dissatisfaction has been created in consequence of the
utter impossibility of rivetting the attention of those
who have responsible duties to perform,- because
they have been called away to trifle their time
in this idle exhibition of ridiculous perso-
nal vanity. Sir, there is no occasion for us to
make ourselves uneasy. Who wants to hurt us if we
will only not hurt ourselves ? Everybody breathes a
spirit of kindliness and goodwill towards us, are ready
to exchange their commodities for ours, to live in peace.
and to adopt that good Scriptural truth, which I fear is
not so much held in observance as it is in repetition,
that we should do to other men as we would be done
by, that we should strive to live at peace with one
another, and if it be possible, that we should endeavour
(for it is a mere endeavour) to love our neighbcurs as
ourselves. (Hear, hear.) Sir, these quotations come
perhaps with a bad grace from one who professes not to
deal in them, but I believe them, nevertheless, to be
true, and I consider that the policy this country has
taken, as it regards this volunteer movement, is
suicidal. I believe it is calculated to prevent the
very things which it professes to accomplish. Sir, we
we have ministers of religion—would to God their
business had been to preach peace instead of creating
Strife amongst us. At the same time lam free to ad-
mit that I am contending against the majority, and being
in the minority I don't hesitate to say that I submit to
the will of the majority, but that does not prevent me
from raising my voice as a member of the community ;
iatntod I
betackaelcinuratsetadntdo againstdamage this
and movement.demoralise thel pbeeloipelvee,
I believe that if they once enter into the feeling, that
their struggle is to be how they can, with the utmost
rapidity, do their fellow creatures the greatest amount
of injury. It that is to be their study, then indeed I
tremble at the result. We are told about the Emperor
of the French coming over to our shores : why has not
that been talked about for the last four or five years ?
Where is the Emperor of the French ? Does the
Government tell you that they have been disappointed
in any of the transactions that he has pledged himself
to perform ?

Mr. PARKER thought that Mr. Gladstone was out of
order.

Mr. GLA.DSTONE—The Alderman is a little sensitive ;
and the newspapers inform us of something which may
possibly account for it—at any rate, something like
order and decorum must be observed. I say I raise my
voice against this attempt to implicate the servants of
this township, at the expense of the Corporation, in
this movement. It would have been much more to
Lord Derby's advantage if he had, long before this,
come amongst us and asked us our opinions, and if we
could have felt the genial warmth of his present interest
in our welfare and good fortune ; but coming at this
moment it is suspicious. No doubt he is sincere in the
iisne oemomi neg
oetiht he
re r
form,by s e a
aonrd byh el a n
contemplated or
u ndere
belief that the Emperor of the French, or some other
hobgoblin,
ignrjouurnycl,toorhis property. The invitation
.should have
Come earlier—it should have come in the time of peace—
it should have come in the season when nature is begin-
ning to dawn and look beautiful. This is what the
people want—they do not want your swords and your
bayegetn—they want to hie at peace with eyerybedy,

TIM DAM TIMES, THURSDAY, AUGUST 9, 1860.

but you will not let them. I should like to know the
exact terms of Lord Derby's letter.
The MAYOR—There is a suggestion for a half or a
general holiday.
Mr. GLADSTONE—In the first place, you have no
power. You may make a recommendation, and of
course you will exercise your own discretion; but,
knowing that there is a difference of opinion in the
town—knowing that there are those who look at this
movement as a calamity—the gentleman should pause
before he commits himself to a movement and a princi-
ple involving the most serious consequences, and of
which lam not an isolated opponent. There are many
in the town who have no voice in this chamber, but
who hold the same views as myself. I believe that
unless a stop is put to this extravagant notion of sol-
diering—of playing at soldiers, for it can be nothing
else, very serious consequences can be expected.

The MAYOR—I do not know how Mr. Gladstone
could have misunderstood what I said. I spoke as a
member of this council and as mayor, but I purposely
avoided making any recommendation to this council.
Mr. Gladstone has a right to his opinion—l have a
right to mine. (Hear, hear.) And I beg to differ
in tote from him with regard to the movement. I not
only think it has had a great moral effect throughout the
world, but I think it has a good effect upon the men
connected with it. (Hear, hear.) Instead of thinking it
tends to demoralise them, I think it has been the means of
keeping them out of a great deal of mischief, and of doing
good, not only to their bodies, but to their minds. I
will not detain the Council longer, but I am sorry that
Mr. Gladstone should have made the remarks he did. I
am quite aware that, as Mayor, I can only carry out the
wishes of the Council, and I purposely abstained fram
recommending anything. I merely did my duty in
reading the letter from Lord Derby, and leaving it in
the bands of the Council, certainly expressing my own
opinion, that I hoped the public would carry out the
wishes of Lord Derby as far as they could, and give
effect to what I considered, to the public generally, a
very liberal proposal on his part. (Hear, hear.)
•

Mr. BRA3LEY-MbORE-1 have listened with a great
deal of attention to what has fallen from Mr. Gladstone,
and I cannot refrain from expressing surprise at the
sentiments to which he has given utterance, because
some of them, according to my notions of what is pass-
ing around us, are really as opposed as darkness to the
light of day to the knowledge we have before us. Mr.
Gladstone, sir, has given us a great lecture; he has
censured Lord Derby, he has censured the volunteer
movement, he has commented upon our relations, in
a commercial point of view, with France, and I beg
permission to make one remark upon that portion.
Now, can there be any one in this room, I would ask,
with his eyes open and his ears to hear what is going
on, that can he so blind as not to know what has taken
place in our recent relations and negotiations in a com-
mercial point of view with France ? (Hear, hear.)
Can any one, I say, be so obtuse as not to perceive the
manner in which we have been---I will not make use of
a strong expression, which I might fairly do on this
occasion--I will say, in which we have certainly not
got any advantage, but in which all the advantage has
been on the side of France and to our prejudice. (Hear,
hear, and no, no.)
Mr. STEA.INS—Are we to have a free-trade discussion ?

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—The subject has been intro-
duced into this chamber. There is no one more ready
or more forward to condemn such discussions in this
room than myself ; but they have been introduced, and
since that is so I say that every man has the privilege
of making his remarks on what has gone before.
(Hear, hear.) In going back to this treaty, of which
we have heard so much, I would ask what has been the
operation of this famous treaty ? Were we not to have
a fair interchange of commodities ? Have we got this
interchange ? I say we have not; and I throw the
onus of proof on those who say we_ have it. We know
that since the treaty the country has been inundated
with the manufactures of France. But have we ex-
ported our cottons, our woollens, and our hosiery, to
France ? I say we have not ; and if we have, it has
been on such a scale as really not to be worth notice.
But we know the fact that we have not ; we know
that deputations have gone up from Manchester,
from Sheffield, and from Birmingham, to complain of
the treaty, and to state that it was inoperative, as far as
regarded their manufactures—(hear, hear)—that they
were positively excluded from availing themselves of any
advantage of the treaty that has recently been made.
The fact is this, since that we know a commission is at
this present moment sitting in Paris, to amend, and if
possible, to enlarge, the conditions of that treaty, so
that England may-gain some advantage from it here-
after, but as far as we know at present, it is likely to be
inoperative. I have no doubt that when the accounts
are made out at the end of the year 1860, it will be
found that France has sent to this country some fourteen
or fifteen millions of her manufactures, while, on the
contrary she has not taken from us more than four or
five millions, and that four or five in articles in
an unmaaufactured condition. That will prove to
have been the result of this far-famed treaty which we
have recently made with France. Why a.° they
sitting at this moment in Paris, if it has been so success-
ful to amend it? Why had the deputation just gone
from Manchester to Paris to throw light upon them,
and to endeavour to make conditions so as to introduce
the manufactures from Lancashire? Because the treaty
had been a complete failure ; and whatever good is to be
got from it is to be got from the commission now sitting
in Paris ; and I for one most heartily wish they may
amend and succeed with it, and that we may get a fair
interchange of commodities. I look upon that inter-
change of commodities as worth all the diplomatists and
all the ambassadors of the world put together. I look
upon the exchange of commerce with all parts of the
world as the great missionaries, (hear, hear,) the best
guarantees of peace that we can have. (Hear, hear.)
The MAYOR—Mr. Gladstone did allude to the treaty,
but I think you have replied to it sufficiently. (Cries of
" Go on" from Mr. Jeffery and others.)

Mr. BRANILEY-MOORE—I have too much respect for
the chair to go on on any point on which I am called to
order, but at the same time that I bow to the decision
of the chairman, I do not think that when the subject
has been introduced by one gentleman, another ought not
to have the privilege of replying. (Hear, hear.) At all
events, I may say a word on the volunteer movement. I
look upon it as one of the most patrioticimovernents that
has taken place in England since the year 1804, when
we raised about 370,000 volunteers. (gear, hear.) Too
far back do you say ?

Mr. pLADSTONE-I did not intend to speak so loud,
but I did make a remark to my friend near me, and
that was that we are just as far forward in the year
1860 as we were in 1804. (Laughter.)

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—Taking your own view of
this question, we have made some advancement; for in
1804 we raised 370,000 volunteers, while in the year of
grace 1860 there are only 136,000. Therefore, accord-
ing to your own views, we have made considerable pro-
gress. (Laughter.) The highest honour was reflected
upon that 136,000, who consented to leave their homes,
their wives, and their families, to be drilled and made
soldiers of, and all this at their own expense. Ido say 4
that they merit the warmest thanks of the community.
(Hear, hear.) I have never been in any great appre-
hension of an armed invasion. Suppose the French
were to come to England, they could not drop from the
clouds ; they must come from somewhere. I have been
to Cherbourg, and I have made examination of the docks
there; but I have no fear of the docks. (Hear, hear.)
But we do know that the great chief of the French
might centre in Paris hundreds of thousands of men ;
we know that he might have them there one day and
might send them to Cherbourg the next ; and we know
that they might make a descent upon this country, aad
I think we may fairly anticipate what the result would
be : but he might do a great deal of damage to this
country. The ultimate result, we know perfectly well,
would be that very few would go back to tell the tale
unless we sent them back with our usual English phil-
anthropic notions with a few sovereigns in their pockets.
(Laughter.) But Ido hope that if that unhappy event
do happen only one will be sent back, for invasion is a
thing which no country ought to tolerate ; and if I
sent one back, he would be all I have a.right to send
back. I think that the peace we are now enjoying is in
a great measure owing to this volunteer movement,
which has been so ridiculed by Mr. Gladstone. (Hear,
hear.) Therefore, if it has had the effect of producing
peace, present and prospective, I say that we owe the
movement and every individual connected with it a deep
debt of gratitude. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, take what
has fallen from Mr. Gladstone with respect to my Lord
Derby, who has kindly thrown open his park for a review
of the volunteers of this district. Ido not hesitate
to say that I am not one who ever flattered Lord Derby
or any other nobleman ; but I think the public of Liver-
pool and of Manchester, and of other towns, who take a
deep interest in the movement will be present at the
review on the Ist of September, and by their thousands
will show whether the public have entered into the feel-
ings of the volunteers or not. It was thrown out that
his object in giving the invitation was of a personal
character, but such a statement was almost undeserving
of notice. (Hear, hear.) Every one will agree with
me that nothing ever entered into his mind, for one mo-
ment, of that sort. He then went on to say that he had
no intention of making any observations in that room
when he entered ; and he hoped he had made them with
that spirit and temper which becomes an Englishman,
and that he had not transgressed any rule of debate. He
gave Mr. Gladstone credit for sincerity in everything that
he had said, and, knowing that out of doors it was taken
in that light, and appreciated as coming from his inner-
most heart, he deemed it his duty in his place in that room
to make the few remarks he had.
Mr. JEFFERY said, I believe that of all the debates
that ever took place in this room, the present will stand
isolated. We have been told, sir, that those gentle-
men who entertain the notions which Mr. Bramley-
Moore is known to entertain on the question of the
treaty of commerce with France, never learn and never
forget anything. I rejoice to find that Mr. Moore is in
his own person an exception to that rule, and I congra-
tulate hiul UM the PlCgregi he big made iu the