The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-03-07 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--YisTmolky.

Mr. liINGLAICE gave notice that- on Monday rieit I+_c
should .move. an address td her go) esty, thanking her for
having teArniinicated the correspondence respecting the
annexation:of Savoy to the:Empire of Prance, expressing
the deep regret of the. House that such a project had been
entertained, and hoping that ;her Majeity would invite
the other Powers to express their decided opinion agairk
a projeet,whieh had excited and ereaiecl MUCii alarm in
Europe:-
Nft../tOIiSMAN gave notice that, on the address on the
subject of the treaty, he should move an amendment, that
the 11th Article, the coal article; was impolitic and unne-
cessary, and imposing restrictions on the House as to
the irupoSition of taxes, and piaying her 'Majesty to
withhold her consent to that article.
' Mr.. It &nit Eto, gave 'take .6f tiffs aiidual tidbit
motion fer the.-22rid,
gave notice that he should to-morrow
(this day) make inquiries respecting the private letters
between' Lord J. Russell and Lord CoWley, referred to
hr the public correspondence respecting Savoy.
Lord J. RiISiSELL said that he could not produce those
letteti.

Sir DE kitty R't'Ats nioved thatati humble adclicts
he presented Ito het Atajesty, praying that be
graciously pleased ,!to 6'0.6 the,
as seen as pratacable, of the sale and purchase of
.c6trimissions in the army, • having due regard, in doing
so, to existing rights, with the view of substituting for
the purchase system promotion, partly by. selection,, by
seniority grounded on war services, of • merit, length} of
colonial and home ,servico, and attested Piiltesaidnal
fitness, under sechreeflWiii as her Majesty would be
plated 1;6 enact. The gallant general spoke for two
hours in such a tone that not a "syllable of what he 'said
Was heard with any certainty, but he was understood to
recoramend that purchase of, the steps of major an 4
lieutenant-colonel should be abolished in the first
instance. He contrasted the organisation of the cavalry
with that of the artillery, in which non-purchase
existed, showing that where the former failed the latter
had succeeded: •

Mr. Rica seconaea the 'notion, contending that the
present system hllea the army with old officers. The
only system which would put the army into a proper
state, would be
.a careful and. judicious system of selec-
' They would then establish a feeling which would
gain the gallant and high spirited youth of this country
a genuine claim of success in the military profession.
Captain LEICESTER VERNON moved, as an amend-
ment to the motion of Sir De Lacy Evans, " That
whereas the promotion in the seniority corps already
existing, viz., the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers,
and Royal Marines, being of an unsatisfactory character,
this Ilituse is of opinion that it is not desirable 10
extend the seniority systera to the whole of the army."
It was the system of seniority rather than the present
which would fill the army with old officers. Under the
existing system the greater number of officers belonged
to the middle classes. He gave • many instances of
distinguished officers Who had sprung from those ranks,
and who never would have reached their positions under
ate system of seniority.
Colonel} DICKSON seconded the amendment. He
believed that the' seniority system in the Indian service
and the militia had caused enormous expense to the
country. _

Mr. O'BRIEN', in supporting the motion, ridiculed the
present system of military examinations, under which
candidates were examined in Greek verse instead of
subjects belonging to their professions.
Sir F. Smill would haVe matters left as they were.
When the improvements now in progress had been
carried out, the regimental service would be the finest
in the world. '

Mr. LINDSAY likewise opposed the motion, showing
that under the present system a very large number of
officers were promoted from the ranks.

Colonel PERCY HERBERT urged that the example of
other armies or of our own engineers proved that their
system, was inferior to that of the British army.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that the question under
discussion was one of, the most difficult and complicated
in existence. All the systems of promotion depended
upon seniority—only in the Queen's
.service it was
seniority accelerated or, modified by purchase. The
opponents of the purchase system seemed to take
it far granted ,that money and education were
antagonistic, and that a man with money in his
pocket could not be attached to his profession. He did
not believe that if purchases were abolished to-morrow,
it would make the slightest difference in the class of men
entering, the army—the army being a profession of
honour not dependent upon cost. He denied altogether
that the army at present was an aristocratic profession.
It was necessary that they should be prepared with an
efficient substitute before they ventured, on so violent a
change as the abolition of the purchase system. It is
highly invidious to pass an' officer over the head of
another by alleging the relative superiority, and still
more invidious absolutely to refuse promotion to an
'officer on the ground of incorapetency. It was necessary
that some, more definite standard should be adopted.
If Government acknowledged the policy of the recom-
mendation of the commission on the subject, and he was
prepared, though with great caution and consideration,
to abolish payments in the case of the higtest com-
missions; but the subject was one which could not be
trifled with, and he would not move further than he saw
his way. He should lay a scheme before the military,
authorities which he hoped, would have their approba;
tion and that of the country, but he would not touch
'those parts of the system which he was not convinced
required alteration. He should recommend the aboli-
lion of purchases above the rank of major, believing
the duties .of lieutenant-colonel to be too important to
be acquired by, mere purchase. He was, he believed,
prepared with a plan which would render practicable
such a proposal.
Mr. E. ELLICF: considered that any alteration was
fraught with danger, and_ thought that if Mr. S. Herbert
was prepared with a proposition, he ought long ago to
have laidrit before the House. If there were any abuses
in the system, they could be rectified without destroyihg
the system itself. The proposition of Mr. Herbert would
operate most injuriously on the purchase ,of the lower
grades of the army.' The military service of England
was in its conditions peculiar, and could not be managed
by the standard of foreign armies. What evils existed
in the purchase system had been in a grpat measure
removed by the institution of examinations.
Lord Stanley appealed to Sir De Lacy Evans, and
Lerd Palmerston to Captain Vernon to withdraw their
several motions ; the honourable members were willing,
but the House interposed and insisted on a division on
the original motion.
The motion was negatived by 218 to 59:

Colonel Slims moved for leave to bring in a bill to
make provision for the better government and discipline
of the universities of Scotland, and for the union of the
two universities and colleges of Aberdeen.
Mr. C. BnutE opposed the motion, stating`that it was
premature, as the act had not come into operation.
Mr. E. ELLICE said that the town and county of
Aberdeen were Unanimous in desiring the introdUction:
of the bill.

The Loan. ADVOCATE hoped that the bill might be
allowed to be introduced.

After some further del4ate, leave was given to bring in
the bill.

The Valuation of
,Rateable Property (Ireland) Bill,
,was read a third time and passed.
The report on the Customs Acts was brought up and
agreed to, with the exception of the resolution respecting
malt, which was postponed.
The z eport on Ways and Means was likewise agreed to.
The house then adjourned at one o'clock:

THE GREAT SHIP COMPANY. -MEETING -.,..EETING YESTERDAY.
—A special general meeting of the proprietors of this
company took place yesterday, at the London Tavern,
for the purpOse of increasing the capital' from £330.000
to £430,000, to be raised by the issue of shares having
a preference, and for making alteration in the articles of
association. Notice was also given to elect two directors
Il the Stafford and Captain
d thenot Marquisqualified. of
iMßanag roomAlzers.lo ofba
Acorrespondent at Rio de Janeiro, under
dates 7th ult., writes as follows :—I have to inform you
that the Einperor is expected to return to Rio, from the
to which places, as
some few months
I north;infor
ins aeyd
yeartnt,a
hmeb
wenuco, Boanh iaa ,
visitBce
ago. Great preparations are being. made for his' recep-
tion : one triumphal arch alone, I understand, will cost
about .E 5,000. The day that he arrives is to be kept a
clise holiday. The city is very healthy at present, and is
almost entirely free from yellow fever ;, the number of
cases do not average more than two a day. am' very
sorry I cannot say the same for Bahia; ,for about the
middle of January we had news down of the death of
the two chief engineers on the railway, and that there
were twenty-five or twentysix of the workmen in the
hospital there,. all ftenryellow fever,

WEDNE§..44-i,

and pleasing style, and is altogether one of the
best interpretors
.of sacred music that we have ; the
remarkable simplicity and absence of all unnecessary
nrrtamentation is aisO rtg bbdiwto-istic or
her Shei distingUished herself highly also
iii Mendelss() llatni;ovirerei,the ,r ter Rat of the
*eft till tot Aare ; o'l6 alt .‘; T my soul
thirsteth" may, be Mentioned /AS a hediltiful prece of sing-
ing, and Mr. Pein's oboe accompaniment tailed for
great praise., The chorus was very good alsoinMen-
flelssolites =isle; which is more straightforWard' and
easier to sing than that of the two other composers ; and
the quintett, `,‘ The Lord bath commanded," was very
well given. The hall was tolerably full, and probably
Wofild have been more so if the weather had been better::
We hope We dill not have to wait untiLLent next year
for another concert of the saute cliaraetsr, x.

SELECT VESTiiY.-YESTERDAY

The fortnightly meeting of the' V.ea Ycstry.
yeste,rday morning in the beard-room, at. the Parish Offices,
rownlow-hill. Mr., Church Warden .Tones presided, and
the other members present were Messrs. Cropper (church-
'Warden), Owen, Critchley'; Scott, Hughes, Cook,, Bair-
:stow, Denton, Hand, Whitty, Cafferata, E. Byford,
Williams, Syred, A. Byford, Ttirner, Melly, and Peck: •
WORRIIOUSE commitrtt.
The
• 4;
proceedings of this committees which Piave been
already detailed in our coltinins, w:ere add Alid On the
/notion of Mr. Churchwarden Cropper, the minutes were
Confirmed without comment.

INDCSTRIAL SCHOOLS COM!SITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee included a recorn-
mendatlop that Mr. John Rutherford be appointed
4ssigtant.sehoclitastet in the schools salary of £3O,
With addttisn.as.niay j/c granted after examination
by the school inspector dr, the doVernnient. I~lr ,Poole
was recommended as gardener at wages of .41 per
week.
,Tbe;pr,oceedings included several applications
from mantifactaters iu the district.for boys and girls frbm
the selioqin to, work in the factories.; and, with one
keeptio4,lilley,Were,all granted, the,isual conditions as I
to Aditable, and'phi.-Islens bAiag,gderanteed.
On the motiou°of Mr. Bairstow the Proceedings were
confirmed without any opposition.
FINANCE COI6IITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee were next read ;
and, . without . any diseutsioni on: the •motion of Mr.
Cropper, seconded,byjit Oritchleli they were confirmed.
~
; 'fin nO3I'A.N•.6eIIiOLIO•i/RiEstliciciEl AND Tilt Ente.kftoß
. . . - ' df ifr&FER 611.45i*pi, .: , , .
Mr. W. JoNts,. having f iente(t the, Oiair,- which was
taten by My: Cronper,t said that .the °board: Would 1
feiniorrillek, ththata month .ago be gave notice that he
should Call 'atterithin'B: d'Meetirki,- hed in Lqiiden, in
December__ last, consisting of Catholic- clergy. The
Object - of 'that meeting seemed to be to dense some
measures for the purpose of rescuing Roman ,Cholio
panpeii 'front ' a system,'
of forced proselytism which
obtained Ur their education In . every parish and union
in the kirigdoini if/Wittig getttioli) thus making against
all alas of the donntry iiidiStrimirlatdiy a Adtst *bleb,'
If ifitei Was a said state of thine's., to, be emiteMpiated.
Ile hirifseit ,NfOrild lid stithe toy this that there *.as arty
such, thin hiAesigni and irOhe lad plkt of the pfo-
Oeclingi the ehar,ge was; fliat'it'lias b'y de
dal/ riot
by an ik. y dexni,tifdi 016' children of Roman .Catholk
t,rents were snbjeot toasysterti Of ere4elytiln. Of course
hey could not answer for any plaem except Lik.eijokiol. ' In
Liver ?pi they knew that there was no such system
eva l -yegt Om
‘liiit .child brought into the .schools at
Fi
irk 60, wlicither that child be a _Roman Catholic or a
Prof was flie4 as'. free. fir .itorCise the creed to
which, .he, had been desigriated; as td brieatbe the. air
there. Although chargeS ,of this nature, from ilri6 to',
time, had - been made against the management there,
they ineW Very' well the pains that had been taken'.
in order to prevent even the very appearance of prose-
lytism. The Schools Committee, assisted by this board,
hdd left as it were no stone unturned to remove even the
ifliglittit grditrid 'Bl' eduiplajnt: in fact, they had made
concession After cdricessidn, creel Id the Prejudices df
indiiiduals, in order that they might be free kill iffy
such charge, Th_p preseqcharge, therefore, met the
.watt} skikpri4e, , , Blit; they were, riot only Charged.with
forcing -certain religiori 40ri the itirriri.tee.,- but- even
,where other three' failed, • they 'were. iiiiiiii laliarged
'with abduction. The intention of the parties who met
in London. Wa4 Privately to get up' aseg in all OAS of
the.country,, as to the number, of Catholic children in
,the workhouses and district union schools; the cases of,
refusal to .permit the Catholic children to receive instruc-
tion from ,the Catholic' priests—be, (Mr.. Jones) .Hoped
that did not apply in Liverpool--",-- and the wrong removals
of Children *hen /the religion could tidt be otherivise
changed! They •seieleilcl„ in a Catholie notspaper of
Satdrday last, that tiverPodl alight tie td waste extent
an . exception, but that the Roman Cdtheelies . Were
indebted to •Mr.• James Whitty for 'that. • Ito (Mr joties)
had no objection to nitre ,every persen, even Mr. Whitty,
the tiniest credit., as 'far as. might be due to him ; but he•
denied that it Was owing to the efforts of Mr. Whitty;
or any other single gentlenian, that the children iu the
industrial schools enjoyed ,freedom of conscience. No*,
the meetiag he had. been referring to was an important
one, exclusively composed of ecclesiastics; and it was.
the coMmenceinent.Of at serious agitation on. the,part of
'the' Roman' Catholics of England, tOr the purpose Of
effecting, by. legislation, radical alterations in the admi-
nistration of poor relief tlirorughont, the Country: They.
had sketched out the alterations they sought for. They
wished for a separate establishment in every parish, the
establishment to be maintained at the cdst cif theidonntry,
and to be beydnd the control Of the paying Body:
. Mr. WHITTIL—N.O, rio.
Mr.. JONES read a clause from the report,." That the
removal of paupers 'be exempt from the interferenbe of
the Poor-law Board." If they were to have an.agitation
of this nature, with the influence of the clergy brought
to .hear for the purpose of squeezing from the' Govern-
ment alterations subversive of the interests of the rate-
payers, and subverSive of the independence of parish
officials—it was time for them to be, on the look-out.
He concluded by moving the following resolution :

That this board cannot but view With concern and regret the
agitation Which has recently been organised by the ROzdan
Catholic clergy of London,' at• a meeting held in London in
December last, for the purpose of obtaining serious alterations
. in the existing law of poor-relief—alterations which, if effected,
will necessarily largely increase the cost of the maintenance
of the poor, and confer upon Roman Catholic ecclesiastics
exclusive privileges that would inevitably give rise to jealousies
and discontent amongst all other religious denominations, and
thereby render the administration of poor relief more difficult
and complicated, as well as costly.
That knowing the charge of sytteinatic proselytism, now
made indiscriminately against every- pariah and union in the
kingdom, to be utterly unfounded as regards Liverpool, =4
believing it to be untrue as respects the country generally,
this board cannot view such allegation as other than a pretext
for seeking from Parliament special concessions adverse to the
interest's of the ratepayers, restrictive of the liberty' of the
pauper, and of ,the independence of all parish officials, and
calculated to disturb the good feeling and confidence which
the present system. of , poor relief. has secured . amongst all
religious denominations throughout the country,

Resolved—That the atteathin of the borough and county
members be. forthwith called to this important subject ; and in
order-that accurate and authentic information may be obtained
upon the grievances ;end disabilities under which it is now
alleged Roman Catholic paupers .are suffering, that they be
solicited to ask from the House of Commons returns embracing
the following particulars
, .
1. The number of persons belonging to the Church of England
in receipt of indoor parish relief.'
2. The number of persons, Roman .Catholic, in receipt of
indoor parish relief.
3. The number of persons of •other religions in receipt of

parish relief.
4. The number of, workhouses and workhouse-schools in

which Roman Catholics have liberty to attend their own
worship.
5. The ,number of workhouses and workhouse-schools in

which Roman Catholic priests are admitted, statedly for
the religious instruction of Roman Catholic inmates.
6. The number of workhouses and workhouse-schools in
which no application• has been made for the admission of
Roman Catholic priests for said purpose.
7. The number of workhouses and workhouse-schools in
which Roman Catholic priests or visitors are proscribed,
and the reasons, so far as can be ascertained.
8. The nutliber of cases in which the religions designation of
the.children classed as Protestants has been 'altered on

appeal. ,
9. The number of cases in which the religious designation of
children classed as Roman Catholic has been altered' OA
appeal.
10. The number of designations investigated 'on the application
of the relatives or others entitled to apply for such inves-
tigation.
! 11. The nuniber of designations investigated at the instance
directly, and, as far as can be ascertained, indirectly of
Roman Catholic priests.
12. The number of complaints from Roman Catholic. priests
against the religious designations which, upon inVestiga-
,
tion, have been proved to be unfounded.
Mr. E. BYFORD seconded the motion.

Mr. Wnrrry entertained but one opinion as to the in-
treduction of the subject—that it was totally unnecessary;
and seeing that the operations of the meeting in London
were suspended for the present, it was exceedingly pre.-
mature to bring the matter on at the bdard. lie also
considered the discussion, of the subject at the board as
out of place. The Select Veitry ,was purely an admi-
nistrative body ; it was appointed for the relief of the
pobr bf the parish; and the proper and economical dis-
tribution, of the funds of the ratepayers., When these
two objects were, fulfilled in a creditable manner by the
board, its functions were complete—its mission was
-,liowever,, there were only two things to be
considered—what was the object sought for, and what
were, theconsiderations upon which it was sought. Now
the object sought for was simply separate education,
Mr. Jones had garnished the dish, but the object was
simply the establishment of separate educational schools,
where Roman Catholic children might be ender the
guidance of Roman Catholics. Every denomination of
Christians in the 'land had affirmed their ap;sroval of
separate et-meatier' ; and why should the • Roman
Catholics alone be considered presumptuous in asking
that their children should be educated by them-
selves. It was not contemplated to add one single
penny to ' the expense of the ratepayprs, but only to
demand for each. child from the parish or union the
amount which that child would have cast under the pre-
sent arrangement. Every religious denomination. in
this large community, .9.xed indiscriminately ; out of
the funds thus ral4ed, two 'Protestant clergymen were
paid by the parish ; a beautiful edifice was built -within
the walls for the Protestant' portion of the inmates at
the public expense ; every official in the Industrial
Schools ,was a, Protestant, ; every . official in the Work-
house was a Protestant,. except one, and he had nothing
to do with education ; and, that being the case, did Mr.
Jones not think that the Disseritett Mid Roman Catho-
lics had some reason to complain ? He concluded by
moving 'as 'an amendment—not tliat'"he thought it
would probably he successful—that the motion of Mr.
jone.s be deferred until the provisions of the proposed
bill be brought before Parliament.
Mr. CirFERA.'4 seconded the amendment.
'Alter considerable discussion, in which Mr. Bairstow,
Mr. Melly, Mr. Owen, Mr: Scott, and others took part,
Mr. Whitty's amendment was put and rejected by a large
majority.
Mr. MELLY then moved that the whole of the preamble
of the resolution be•omitted ; and that they pass only the
part requesting the comity and borough members to_
move for the specified returns inthe House of Commons
Mr. Melly's amendment, after some discrission, was
carried by 11 to 5 ; and, becoMing the original motion,
it wits almost unanimously passed. . • ,
Mr. ()WAN moved 'a. resolution to the effect that all
applications for increase of salary be deferred each year
till the month or October, when they be considered as a
whole. under thepreserit system, it seemed to be not
a nuestion of merit, but of- importunity, for the parties
'seeking an increase of salary • were continually in' the
habit Of canvassing the members.

-The motion was agreed to ; and, after the transaction
Of some business of minor importance, the proceedings
erminated.

ROYAL VOLUNTEER BALL.—The number of vouchers
for this ball exchanged up to Monday evening exceeded
6,000 ; and it is confidently believed, from tie interest
the. fete has occasioned among all classes, that not, less
that 8,000 perms will be present.