The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1868-02-22 00:00:00

TRADES DEPUTATION TO MR.
GLADSTONE

On Tuesday the deputation from the London trades
societies' delegates waited, by appointment, upon the
Right lion. Mr. Gladstone, M.P., at his private re-
sidence, 11, Caclton knseterrsee. L.•ndion, for the
purpose of explaining to him th: actoal working 14
trades unions and of refuting the alleged incoherent
statements aatle by him in a speech at Oldham, on
the Igth of Oceember last. Mr. George Potter. hav-
ing formally intnoinced the deputation. opened the
proceedings by a lengthy speech, in which he touched
at length upon the Limitation of Apprentices ; Piece-
woik. and the Al iniumun Rate of Wages, which he
said was just to a majority of employ' rim Who wish to
have good workmea at fair wages, and only acted as
a hindrance to selfish employers who pull down prices
for their own advantage. The result In that scamping
tf Wlnnofe.cture snd workmanship which has become
notorious. :Nearly all Wcrs ia don,. by contract, .and
when the lowest tenders arc taken inotantly wages
tend towards the lowest point. Obviously the work-
mates friend is the honotrable toaster, who will not
eewd in a tender so low as to be practically dishonest
Mr. Gladstone rellie.l at griott length upon all these
questions, and in the rune of his speech raid •
. . .

"Just lob me ask what would be the effect in Lancashire
of attempting to lay down a rule with regard to the number
of apprentices In the cotton manufacture. It is therein the
grert rteplt: trade of the cveintry thst the labour of the
young to th 9 trort fre.?, arol ft is Shore that opon the whole
the labouring men 01 this cottutry minty the most Inde-
pendent and solid position, as was proved M the ntrinosr in
which they were enabled to meet the terrible calamity of the
cotton famine. I believe there are rules among masons to
the effect that the stone which Is quarried may not be
tdrssseil,' es it Is called, In the quarry Itself, but must lie
taken to the piece where It must be put in the building.
hot: Ili it iossible as matter of reason, to tlenouliee too
stvoogly soch a rnie al that ? It is a rule worthy of savages
There was nothini,. in tir corr law thgt tta a hit worse than
that. it is a waste of human labour, it fs 1.9f991,pg tn 'mike
God's gifts gnus far as Ile intended them to go when ru re.
quire labour to be done by such a useless regulation. Ido
not know whether that is a trade union regulation or
not." ,Mr. Potter and some of the members of the deputa-
tion stated that it ace not.
. . . .

he delettates of the various trades then spoke, com-
mencing with Mr. nese, ence taWe , atm, in referring to the
question of the restriction of apprentiecsnip, setel it was
very common for the opponents of trades Unions to seize
upon sonic particular regulation that might be deemed ob-
jedjposbie, red aepiy it to ell trades' unions No doubt the
principle of trades anioir though a good one, had been in
some cases improperly carried out : but that steX no argu-
ment ageing the principle itself. With regard to the laliour
of women, the praetieal carrying out of the doctrine laid
down by Mr. Cilatistone had been, in some eases, to shift
the labour of women upon men and vice cern. In Lancashire
the women might be found working at the mill while the
husband traiatV'edirier Xei the childree. ['tiring the distres.
in Coventry the registrar retire stated that there were
fewer death. among children than when the trade vies good
In the tailoring trade, which is represeuted, there was no
limitation. The number of tailors according to the last
census we.- .1,,0011, women, MO The result of there
being no limitation was that t.!!ere were not 5,000 skilled
artisans in the tailoring trade. Tine slop tradc ar-ployed a
large number of inferior handset wages insufficient to support
life. SW. was paid them for ten hones' work They lived
partly by their labour and partly by various charitiee, while
their employers were making princely fortunes and doing no
good I" the public. The country would he no poorer if these
poor pereons were properly paid for their labour and the
employers had Res pre'its. lithe poor had more for their
labour they would expend It in giving labonr to others.
The principle of no limitation had dragged down tailors,
shoemekers, weavers, and other., to the lowest point of
stervetion. It wan a law of political economists that Where
money invested tne 'Articular trade ceased to be productive.
It found its way into another trade. With regard to labour
the law acted inversely. When a fettle: found that by his
own labour he was unable to support a family, he twyteht his
wife and children to work at his own trade, and than repro-
duced the evil. A capitalist might easily alter his invest-
ment in flee minutes ; a labourer required live years to
change his employment. Capital, when unproductive,
,• destroyed nothing, but uproductive labour consumed labour.
I The simplest inquiry would show that the limitation of ap-
prentices had acted beneficially on those trade, in which it
was carried out. Amongst the glassdnakers where the limi-
tation of apprenticee prevailed, there was Memel a surplus
of lalour ; their members nurntered 1,100, and they ex-
pended about i. 4,600 in four years fur unemployed labour, or
about 15e. a num If they restricted their apprentices they
I also undertook to support their men and not allow them
to come upon the public parse. With regard to the
'tillers out of 53 000 there were eit lead t 15,000 sunk in the
. • . ,
; depths of misery with not a spark of manhood or woman-
hood left.
Mr. Leicester (glassmaker ea,el he represented a society
that was perhaps more stringent than any other in carrying
out the system of restriction Their great object was to
equalize supply and demand, and with this view they hail
prepared statistics as to the number of employed and en.
eei ployed persons which were valuable as a guide to parents
in selecting a calling for their children. They cowiidered
that those who bud spent years in acquinng a particuler
trade ought to live by it. When an apprentice rushed into 3
trade already overstocked he pushed out somebody at the
other and, It was said by. pollskal economists that when
there Waif Leo much labour In the market. 11111 t as In the 34303

liermsme
rot capital, it would soon overflow and tiud its way elsewheio.
This was an obvious (allay. The man and his trade were
one and indivisible, and it WY cruel to attempt to separate
them. In Stourbridge the restrictive policy had been carried
out very stringently, and that district had maintained its
prestige at the Paris Exhibition.
Mr Dunning (bookbinder) said he would endeavour to
show-the rationale of a Minimum rate of wages. All men
in health were nearly alike in pllsical capability The
qualifications of a workman depending on his physical
development, and the majority of mankind being much alike
in this respect, a uniform rate of wages was init unreason-
able. It was adjusted lathe first instance by the principle of
demand and supply. There was a settled rate of wages for
the general run of workmen recomikied equally by einployer
and employed. It was not. an alleged, the subject of con-
tinual dispute. It was given by the majority of employers
without the least hesitation or complaint. The enly
plaints came from elating tradesinen, who sought for pur-
poses of their on nto redone wages. There WM nO trades
union rule to prevent masters giving superior workmen more
than the usual rate, lit the ewe of piece work skilled men
always receive the highest wages. A minimum rate pre-
vented the employment of incompetent hands, and the
consequent production of bail work
Mr. Squire painter said if there was no minimum of
wages established there would be nothing to prevent their
rising and falling with dull awl busy times. l'ontraida
made under such asysteni would be like gambling, and few
honourable employers would employ their capital at such
hazards An emplo)er with his capital would be too strong
' for the pour workman ; the weakest, would go to the wall,
sad wages would take a downwani tendency till they reached
starving point.
Proadlitirst (niaSali) contended that dr minimum of
wages was a just arrangement, since kti. IMY'eent, of work-
men were act-rage skilled 'men Some -firms acknowlelited
the skillet their labourers my increased payment. 'Those
especially employing carvers, a superior class of workmen,
paid an advance on Ilbe minim rate. The few inferior
men could always find employment suited to their capacities.
Since the establishment of the operative Masons' Society In
1,10 they had spent k..V.e2,1C.1 on beuevelent purposes alone,
the emoted expended on trite purposes teeing a 61.151 It
Was hardly right, therefore, to ht-ate that trades 1111i0116 bad
been established for the mere purpose of bringing men to
one level. . _

Mr. M' N imam, plasteriT, said that the resolution read by
Mr. Gladstone, stated to have been adopted by operative
plasterers' emanated only from :1 local hody, and WSJ Un-
known to the central Association. Ile could touch for the
society, containing 7,C00 or. 0,41/0 members, took Uo steps to
prevent the masters from taking as many apprentices as
they chose. In some country Mid ricts there aught he some
restriction, hut in 1.01111011 there was none whatever. All the
buildings Is the outskirts of LOllllOll carried on by specula-
tive masters IVY done by piecework, and no impediment
was tIII,IIII Isa the way, nor were Wars any rules for the
prevention of overtime.
' Cohn, rig, maker, 1.1,1' that In trade unions no it.-
fumy was made or millirem; of their condition as to the
state of their health, milt as was usually made by heneht
societies.
. . . . . . .

Mr. Cladetono Inqoilod if it was thought that mach • state
of thinrx wax dexirahle
Mr Potter said that the men *ere generally lee good health
when admitted, and were not requirod to undergo medical
examination. . •

.........
Mr. Cohn said that, with regard to Pirr".wor.lt• many •
branches of trade i•Mitimull dimiutea woolo arise between
masters ami men w here that, system 1,89 IlliOrted, its
general tendency was to reduce wages and to increase the
hours of hibler.
Mr. Potter, in returnieg thanks to Ilt. Ulailitaile for the
kind and courte..lll4 manner in which lie had received the
said that (rem all that luell lit en advanced by
tht• various sfaakers it would he seen that in regard to the
limitation of apprentices supplantieg skilled workmen
pointed to two facts, that it was what all true statesmen
aisle I accomplished—namely, the restriction of juvenile
labour, so that the period of education in boyhood might be
extended for several yeara: secondly, it suggested the
necessity of au organind system of einigratiori, whereby the
surplus labour of the country should be taken to our
colonies, chess it is so much needed. With regard to the
general action of the unions, it would be seen that union
men dhl not object to wink with nonunion men , that in
the majority of trades apprentices were not limited that
the enforcement Of a minimum rate of wages MINAS neces-
sary fir the beat Interests of society as for the welfare
of the workmen. The dtpuiation was convinced that the
unclothes whom they represente,l'were not perfect, hut they
were milieu. that all the imperfections arid sinews should
be eradicated, and that they should Inc conducted on prim
ciples that would meet with the approbationef the public.
The deputation then withdrew.