The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1881-02-05 00:00:00

FURTHER CONTINUANCE OF THE DEBATE.

The Speaker having left the chair at 11.30 p.m. (Tuesday),
Dr. Playf air took his place, and Mr. Dillon proceeded to
argue that the Irish Members ought to have further time to
examine the returns, and remarked that the House might
now have been proceeding to a division if the Govern-
ment had accepted the offer made to them on the previous
evening.

-
Sir S. Northcote rose to put it to the House whether Mr.
Dillox's speech did not afford further evidence of a design to
obstruct the progress of business. He regretted that Sir
R. Cross's appeal had not been followed up by any mem-
ber of the Government (this, was cheered from the Minis-
terial benches), and he hopild that some expression would
fall from the Treasury Bench which would strengthen the
hands of the Deputy Speaker in endeavouring to put a stop
to proceedings which constituted a Parliamentary offence.
Mr. Childers replied to this appeal, amid much cheering
from both sides' that if the Deputy Speaker thought fit—
and he hoped he would think fit—to put a stop to this
obstruction, he would have the cordial support of the
Government.
- • • -

Mr. M'Carthy protested against the attempt to set up a
constructive breach of 'order. Mr. O'Donnell spoke, and
Mr. Dodson having made a final appeal to the Irish mem-
bers to allow a division to be taken,
Mr. Gorst read the Standing Order against wilful obstruc-
tion, and invited the Deputy speaker to exercise the ample
powers which be possessed to put a stop to this disgraceful
'scene.
The Deputy Speaker said lie had agreed with the Speaker
that there had been evidence of a combination in the course
of the debate, but he did not consider the time had come for
his interference. Members would have to exercise great
caution and avoid wasting time.
Mr. Parnell proceeded to repeat that the Irish people
desired delay to complete the investigations they were
snaking into the returns, and had spoken for some time in
this straie, when Mr. W. H. Smith, pointing out that he
was only re-stating what had been stated over and over
again, appealed to the Deputy Speaker whether the time
had not come when it was his duty to name Mr. Parnell as
guilty of "wilful and persistent obstruction."
The Deptdy Speaker answered that he was not prepared
to take that extreme course as yet, and on this decision—
which was received with murmurs of disapprobation—being
given the whole front Opposition Bench and a considerable
number of Ministerialists left the House.
The discussion was then continued by Mr. Parnell, Mr.
Leanly, Sir P. O'Brien, and others, and Mr. Bright, who, advert-
ing to the appeals from the front Opposition bench, said the
Ge,vernment accepted the responsibility of the situation, and
announced that the Prime Minister was prepared to make
some proposal for a change in the procedure of the House,
which, without unduly limiting freedom of debate, might
save the English House of Commons from the discreditable
scenes which have been exhibited withiethose walls during
the last few days. (Cheers.) Mr. Bright concluded by
saying :—There has been no division yet during this
Session in which hon. gentlemen opposite have been sup-
ported by a majority of the Irish members (hear, hear), and
in all divisions except the first they have only been sup-
ported by about one-third of the Irish members. Do not
let them suppose that I am asserting that they do not re-
present a large opinion in Ireland. (An Hon. Member:
" A majority.") The hon. member says, a majority. I
will not say whether, it is so or not. I admit the force of
much that they say on that point: but I am perfectly
certain of this, that the time must come, I hope is coming, ,
when the Irish people—all that is thoughtful and all that is
sensible among them—will find out that it is not the way to
do good to Ireland to degrade this House and this Imperial
Parliament. (Cheers.) Further, I am greatly mistaken if
lt be not the fact that this Imperial Parliament will know
how to defend itself from the grossest case of insult and
obstruction which, in my opinion, has ever been exhibited
here. I cannot flatter myself that anything that I can say
will have any influence with some hon. gentlemen opposite;
but I cannot believe that they all in their consciences
approve the course which has been pursued; and though I
believe that many of them and many of their supporters dis-
approve of what I am doing now and condemn it, I can assure
them I am not loss a friend of free discussion and of Ireland
than I have been for a period of forty years—that is, from
the time when I first-entered this House. (Cheers.)
After some further debate, the' motion to adjourn the
House was negatived by 197 to 22.
An episode now occurred between Mr. Biggar and Mr.
Milbank, each of whom accused the other of having applied
opprobrious epithets to him. This having been disposed
of, the debate was continued by Dr. Commins, who said he
GbPcte(l to the introduction of this Bill on several
grounds. It was unnecessary, in fact, it was inexpedient
in policy, and unjUst in
.principle. The village tyrant,
inight, under the ordinary 'law, he all taken up in twenty.

four hours, and the bail fixed so high as to deprive them of
the means of doing mischief. Besides, the experience of 43
Coercion Acts showdd that coercion was always ineffeetual.
But, unnecessary and impolitic as the measure was, there
was a still stronger argument against it. It was unjust, in-
asmuch as it substituted suspicion for proof, and left every
man at the mercy of the spy and the informer. Another ob-
jection to the Bill was that it would introduce an indefinable
offence, a thing which was entirely contrary to the spirit of
the Constitution. Dr. Commins's speech occupied two
hours. At this point—twenty minutes to four o'clock—
there was a temporary suspension of hostilities, during
which hon. gentlemen took the opportunity of stretching
their legs, The Deputy Speaker returned at five minutes to
four o'clock, and Mr. Barry rose to resume the debate.

Mr. Biggar called attention to the fact that forty members
were not present. The "count " having been announce&
hon. gentlemen flocked into the House, and Mr. Playfair
found upwards of the required .number upon the benches
below the Ministerial gangway alone. This fact having
been demonstrated, 100 hon. gentlemen at least left the
House for its congenial precints, and

Mr. Barry rose at fur o'clock (the thirty-sixth hour of the
sitting), stating at the outset that he had no wish to use-
lessly occupy the time of the House (laughter). The lion.
gentleman resumed his seat just before five o'clock.

Mr. sexton rose at five o'clock to speak. After having
spoken for fully two hours, the hon. member proceeded to
criticise the details of the Coercive Bill, when for the first
time during his exhaustive_spcech,
•

The Deputy speaker called him to order. pointing out
that he could not discuss the details of a Bill which was
not yet before the House.
Mr. Leamy rose to continue the discussion by enlarging
upon the powers which the Chief Secretary proposed to take
in the Coercion Bill.

At a quarter to eight Mr. Biggar re-entered the louse,
armed with a Blue-book and papers as if prepared for a
speech, while shortly afterwards the first glimpses of day
breaking were to be seen through the curtains which guarded
the windows.
The hon. member for Cavan proceeded to speak at length
upon the false information which had been supplied to the
Chief Secretary, upon which the right hon. gentleman had
based his claim for coercion.

Mr. Mandella at 8.25 joined his weary colleagues upon the
Treasury bench, and five minutes later the Marquis of
Hartington strolled leisurely into the House, and took his
seat next the Home Secretary. Mr. Forster, Mr. Chamber-
lain, and Mr. Courtney swelled the ranks of the Minis-
terialisti, enabling the Home Secretary to seek some repose,
while the front Opposition bench was strengthened by the
arrival of Mr. W. H. Smith and Colonel Stanley.

At a quarter to nine Mr. Gladstone entered the House
from behind the Speaker's chair, and was received with a
hearty cheer—the first in fact which had been raised since
two o'clock in the morning,

Mr. Biggar proceeded with his speech, and was continuing
at nine o'clock when,
The Speaker resumed the chair amidst vociferous cheer-
ing. He at once called upon the hon. member for Cavan to
resume his seat and read the following statement: —The
Motion for leave to bring in the Protection of Persons and
Property (Ireland) Bill has now been under discussion
for about five days the present sitting having com-
menced on Monday last at four o'clock is continued
until this, Wednesday morning, a period of no less
than forty-one hours, the House having been occupied
with discussions upon repeated Motions for adjournment.
However tedious these discussions, the Motions have been
supported by a small minority in opposition to the general
sense of the House (cheers.) A crisis has thus arisen which
demands the prompt interposition of the Chair and of
the House (cheers). The usual rules have been proved
powerless to ensure orderly and effective debate. An im-
portant measure recommended in her Majesty's gracious
Speech nearly a month since, and declared to be urgent in the
interest of the State by a decisive majority, is being
arrested by an inconsiderable minority—(cheers)—the mem-
bers of which have resorted to those modes of obstruction
which have been recognised by the House as a Parliamentary
offence. (Cheers.) The dignity, the credit, and the authority
of this House are seriously threatened, and it is necessary
that they should be vindicated. (Hear, hear.) Under the
operation of the accustomed rules and methods of pro-
cedure the legislative powers of the House are para-
lysed and a new and exceptional course is imperatively
demanded (cheers), and I am satisfied I shall best carry
out the will of the House, and may rely upon its support, if
I decline to call upon any more members to speak, and at
once proceed to put the several questions to the House (loud
cheering). I feel assured that the House will be prepared to
exercise all its powers in giving effect to these proceed-
ings (cheers). Further measures for ensuring orderly de-
bate I must leave to the judgment of the House; but, I may
add, that it would be necessary either for the House itself to
assume more effectual control over the debate or invest
greater authority in the chair. (Cheers.) The original ques-
tion was, "That leave will be given to bring in a Bill for the
bettor protection of person and property in Ireland,"
against which an amendmenthas been moved to leave out all
the words after the word " that " and add these words "that,
in the opinion of thts House, it is expedient and desirable
and is most fully in accord with the wise and generous
exercise of the undisputed pewer of this House and the
Empire, that remedial legislation on the land question of
Ireland should have precedence over the coercive measures
designed by the Government, and that her Majesty's
Ministers be requested to reconsider their decision.in this
rezard." The question is that the words proposed to he left
mit stand part of the question.

The Speaker then put the question, and a
.division was
taken, with the following result :

For the Motion to bring in the Bill .. 164
Against ..........•• 19
Majority .. .. —145

(Loud and prolonged cheers.)
On the question being put that leave be given Mr. J.
Wearthy rose amid vociferous cries of " Order " and
"Chair."
The Speaker still remaining standing, the Home Rule
members rose en masse, and called out "Order," and
"Privilege," and'gesticulated violently.
The Speaker still maintaining his position, the Home Rule
members in a body left the House.
When, therefore, the Speaker put the question, "As
many as are of that opinion say Aye, contrary No" -the
question being that the Bill should be introduced—there
were no dissentients, and the Speaker declared' "The Ayes
have it."

The Bill was accordingly brought in nem. con.
Mr. Forster then, amid loud and prolonged cheers, ad-
vanced from the bar to the table, in the usual way, and the
Bill was read a first time.

The first reading was agreed to, and the time for the
second reading was fixed for that day (Wednesday), at
twelve o'clock, amid loud cheers.

Mr. Gladstone rose (amidst loud cheers), and said—Before
I move the adjournment of the House, I wish to give a notice
which has refence to the appeal made by yourself from
the Chair-1 propose to move to-morrow (Thursday)
as follows :—" Method of the Better Conduct of the
House on Future Occasions.—H, upon notice given, a
Motion barnacle that the state of public business is ur-
gent, and if, on the call of the Speaker, 40 members shall
support it by rising in their places, the Speaker shall
forthwith put the question, no debate or amendment or
adjournment being allowed, and if on the voices being given
he shall, without doubt, perceive that the "noes " hava it
his decision shall not be challenged, but, if otherwise,
a division shall forthwith be taken, and if the question be
resolved in the affirmative by a majority of not less than
three to one the powers of the House for the regulation
of business on the several stages of the Bill, and upon
motions and all other matters, shall be and remain with
the Speaker, until the Speaker shall declare that the state
of public business is no longer urgent." That is the first
Resolution, and I propose to follow that by a second one—
" That theistate of public business is urgent." (Loud cheers.)
I move the House do now adjourn,
Mr. Callan called attention to the Prime Minister's mis-
take in attributing to Mr. Parnell a speech which was
uttered by somebody else.
Mr. Forster explained the circumstances under which the
error was made.
- - - • •-

The motion for adjournment then being put, the House
adjourned at thirty minutes past nine on Wednesday morn-
ing, haying sat continuously from four o'clock on Monday.

THE OFFICIALS OF THE HOUSE.

The inconvenience amongst officials whose services
are commensurate with the length of the sittings has
been exceptionally great. Between Monday and
Tuesday the Speaker was in the chair for 13 hours
without other interval than the usual quarter of an
hour "for tea." On Tuesday he sat for nearly
nine hours. The Serjeant-at-Arms had kept watch
about with the Deputy Serjeant since four o'clock
on Monday afternoon. The doorkeepers began to
keep single tides only wken nearly exhausted. The
custodian of the Ladies' Gallery remained on duty all
the night. The policemen were. on duty for 18 hours
at a stretch, with intervals of six hours for rest. The
Post Office and telegraph offices were open all night,
and as no arrangement was made for reliefs, the clerks
were practically on duty for 24 hour. The engineer in
charge of the ventilating and warming apparatus had
at midnight been on duty for 33 hours.

A MINISTER FOR SCOTCH AFFAIRS.
A Deputation of Scotch members had an inter-
view with Mr. Gladstone on Monday, with reference
to the appointment of a Minister for Scotch Affairs.
Mr. Ramsey presented a Memorial which had been
signed by a majority of the Scotch members, stating
that in their opinion, it would be greatly to the
public advantage, as well as for the convenience of
members from Scotland, that they should have in the
Goverment a special representative of the poli-
tical as distinguished from the legal business of
Scotland.
Mr. Gladstone, after complimenting the Scotch
members on the assiduous and unostentatious manner
in which they performed their duties, pointed out that
what was practically asked was the creation of a new
Department. He observed that the present was not
the most favourable time for making such an applica-
tion, inasmuch as all the reasonable expectations of
the Government with regard to the programs of public
business had been frustrated. The subject, however,
would receive his careful consideration. There was
no doubt that the Home Secretary was Minister for
Scotland as well as England, but circumstances had
greatly changed during the last thirty years, and in
consequence of the enormous amount of business
thrown on the Home Office, Scotch interests had
suffered.