The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1873-10-04 00:00:00

Tint stormtrixtm mamma

ans not Orlon, but that his hale was Musßac 1-1405 wrounr,
but dollar In Mons.
Did you say what Is put to yon sa to hla being Orton I—l
did net My those words.
Did you say his hair was similar I—l sail hr. hgr was
, similar in oolong Mr. Marvel raid, " What do YOU think
about the case?" I said, " shan't say what I think ; I think
many things." He said, " You can't swear he is not Orion."
I said, '• I don't know who he Is." He said, "The hair is
similar" I said, "timher in ooionr, bat Orton's was light,
end this man's is dark brown."
Will you swear you said that I—On another occasion.
Heap to the first occasion Did you then add anything to
your statement that the hair was similar I—Not that I
recollect.
Mr. Justice Minor : Ind you say the hair we, similar in
colour I—Yes.
And then that the delendant's is darker I—l said that
afterwards.
Who was present on the Oft occasion 7—lt Wal In Mr.
Marvel's shop.
Did yon have another conversation with Marvel alviut the
trial I—No.
Did you say to him in a sutra-gm nt conversation, "I shonid
boot no use as a witness, as I can't say one way or the
other? .—No, I only had a second conversation, and last, two
or three weeks ago.
Will you swear that you did not then say those words I—l
will swear that I have not said that at any conversation.
Nor to that effect?—! don't know how far that goes.
Nothing in substance like that 1-100. not In my mind.
What did you say I—He told me people had been inquiring
about me.
Did you say again the hair was similar said similar iii
colour, but one will light and the other dark.
That you added a few weeks ago I—You, It was the same

meaning.
Mr. Justice Mellor : DI.I you say the hair was similar. but
31113 was light and the ether dark r—Yea.
On you remember a convenation with • Mr. Osborne ?
No, I can't recollect.
Old ou ever tell him you could not say whether he was
Orton or not, but the hair we. similar don't recollect.
Now ss to this man, Orton, whereabouts was the scar!-
0n the right cheek, from the nose to the ear, pretty nearly
ca straight line.
A deep scar?—! could see it was a deep wound.
You could not look at him without seeing it 7—Na, ripe.
;laity es I had seen him so often.
Daring a week - Yes.
His height about bit loin. /--Yee
Do you remember how he ware Ms hair 4--It curled up at
the end under the eau.
Wires In his ears 4—Yes.
Is ii common in Australia 4—Yes. I have seen • more of
men with them there.
Did he walk as if in-kneed 1-1 can't say. He walked in •
slouching sort of way.
Not in-kneed f—l can't say. I don't remember noticing
that. I saw bins more often standing in the shop than
walking
Perhaps you noticed hh large feet in the shop I—l saw
them when he was at work with the sheep. His feet were
then under my eyes.
And you noticed them —Yee. I did.
Now as to your own movements in Australia I—l went out
in 1852. 1 went fleet to Adelaide, I think, In the summer ;
it we. very hot. I believe I left England in June. 1 went
out In the Steadfast I remained in Adelaide about twelve
months. Then I went to Bendlgo and round to Melbourne.
1 wee at Bendier, about three weeks after I left Adelaide—
about the end of 1853 or the beginning of 1854. I was there
about eighteen months, including Sailors Gully and a place
called Bumble Dairy. Then I went to Bryan's Range, Of
Cairogower, where I was about eight months, or longer—
from eta to twelve months.

daily

Then why dtd you say four months, or four to atx 1-1
could not recollect.
Which Is right 7—l was at another place some months in
the same district.
How long were you at Abonker before you became ae-
quainted with the settler 7—Almost at once, within a month
of leaving Calrogower.
And you soon became acquainted with Orton —Yes.
Now, what was the name of the settler?—! cannot may.
What! not know the name of the man you slaughtered
for 7—There are many men toned°m not know the name of.
Did you ever hear any one address this man 7—Yes—the
settler.
What should he call him f—Arthur. He waa called " Big
Arthur."
How would he speak to the settler I-11e called him the
settler.
Da you moan to say he called hi. employer "settler 1"
I d.,u't rememb, him using any name.
Mr. Justice Mellor : Did he say ' Sir 7—! don't recollect.
You recollect the " Arthur ?"—We speak very roughly to
each other.
D!d you ask him where he was going '1
—Yes—to Bal-
larat.
Did you ask him where he had been 7—No ; I did not
like.
Why 7-1 thought he was a ticket-of-leave man.
You had • delicacy 7—Yes.
You swear that I—My reason was I could not aak the quite.
tion of • man I thought to be • ticket man.
Did you not mak him where he had been I—Not that I
know.
Did not he tell yolO—l don't recollect.
Not when he talked shoat Wapping 7—NO; my impression
1. that he had been in Australia longer than I had been.
That is all you can recollect about Austral la 7—Yes.
How did y.. 0 know about Me pushing a man off the horse?
—I heard It from a shepherd.
That he had murdered the man -I can't say but that
be pushed the man off his horse as he was fording the
liver.
Dtd you afterwards become friendly with him 7—No, he
left that day of the quarreL
That W‘ll the last tone yon sew him aster as you know?—
Yes. I was told that I saw him afterwards.
How long did you stay at Abouker 7—Four or live months,
and then I Joined a gentleman who had sheep, and was
with him for about a fortnight, and then went to another
place.
When did you come here 7—ln 1859, in the Royal Charter
The Abouker River is a lorg way north of Castlernatne ?
Yes I cannot say how fez; it is Just under the Australian

. .
Py reuse&
D , you know (4lppsland f —No.
After you bolt sight of him you had no more Interest in
him 7—No. I heard of him. I saw three men come out and
shoot a woman, and I was told who the men were.
Hive you been to Wapping 7—Yes, loon at to/ I ‘Olll
home.
. . .

led you try to and Orton there /—No.
Y mutt have beard if this case long before the meeting
In November I—Yes.
Several years ago /—Not years. I do not recollect anything
about the case nntil bead Serpent liallantines speech.
Just so, in 1871. Yet you spoke to no one about the
matter /—Yes, to several persons.
But you did not give your same to the defendant /—No.
The Lord Chief Justice: Whet time of the year was it at
the settler. /—I cannot say.
Waa it summer or winter t—lt was Rummer all the year
round—never colder than to-day. I have an ides it was
March, 1856.
Mr. lead. Mellor : Were his ears large Or email I—large
and hanging low.
A Juror Will you look at this portrait (an early photo.
graph of defendant) Did you ever tee any one like that I—
t eannot say that I have not.
Who ?—I can't say. I have an idea It seems to come to
my recolle, ion; it teems to me familiar.
the Yoreman.—Doe• it remind )ou of Arthur Orton 4-1
can't say that it does. This I. ins sitting posture. I have en
Ira that Orton was sfi. 1010.
But as to the features I—i caul say more.
melt Chippendale: lam a shipping agent in London. I
was formerly superintendent of St. Katherine's Steam Wharf
for nearly • quarter of • century. I knew Arthur Orton and
hi. father hotwein 1845 and 1848. He was between twelve
and fourteen years 01 see, and • vary big fellow, from ten
to twelve stone. At that time he was quite • celebrity be
Wapping, from his site and general appearance. He had
very big frame He bore no resemblance then to the de-
fendant. I can't detail the dissimilarity of features. Orton's
face as • boy was largsr than the defendant's.
Mr. &leant Parry I have no questions Leask you.
Robert Gardener: lam • butcher at Richmond. I was in
Amtralia in 1850. I was at Wagga Wagga in 1553 and in
1867. I saw Arthur Orton In 1853 at BrookOng, about 60
miles from Wagga Wages.
Mr. Kenealy Just consider.
Witness: It was In 1863 I first saw him on his way to
Waage Wan.. The second time he was in Wagga Waage
taking cattle for Higgins in Auckland. He was • stout, big.
learned, raw-boned man—not neatly. I was only occasionally
in Wagga Wagga. I knew Castro there He was not at all
like Arthur Orion. I saw them both oft and on for seven or
eight months. Orton was rather the taller of the two.
Orion's hair was rather light-colour, and Castro's was the
darker. He was a rough-locking man. Ile had a straggling
fosey-colourol beard. Castro had a dreamy look. He was
not like Orion.

Cron-examined by Mr Hawkins I first knew Orton five
or six years before in Forest Creek, but not by name. It was
about 181. Ile was then loafing about He was not thought
half too much good. lam p utile° I saw him In 1663, just
before shearing Inc.l I first spoke to him in Wagga W.gga.
At eastlemalne he was lounging •b, ut grogshops doing no.
thing. I woo at the time living and digging jut outside is
Forest Creek. I woo in his company at any of his
friends. In w any of them who were with him at Castle-
maine after Orton left the place low him and Ms party dolly
for three months. 1n.,.? had anything to say to him. His eyes
were a little sunk in. I can't mu that I noticed a twitch, if
there was I did not notice it. Ile had a shambling sort of
way of walking, like a man who had been accustomed to ride
on horseback. lie walked like a native of the country, who
havo a peculiar kind of walk. Orion's hair was long and
straight. I only saw him once at Brookona. I can't say IS
I spoke to him, but he Joined in the conversation. There
was a man with him I did not know. I dii not then
notice a twitch in his eye. The portrait of the dein.
dint handed to me is not like the Arthur Orton I knew.
It reminds me of Castro about the eyes, but it it not
like him. I saw one like thio a day or two ago hanging up
in Mr. Harcourt's t Mee. I saw him the latter end of January,
1885. In Watiffit Waite., and again two or three months after.
I did not we him after. I did not know any o the men in
his company. I never knew him to have a fixed home. I
bought most of Castro In Higgin's shop. That was the first
place I saw him. I think it wan before I saw Ortor. I did
not notice if Higgins meat woo well out up and looked nice.
Any one can Cutup meat in Autrena.
The wart then adjourned.

[ln Palace-yard and along the approaches to the West-
minder courts was collected on Monday inch an assemblage
as has seldom, in point of numbers, been gathered together
In that vicinity before. As the great clock of St. Stephen's
tolled five there could not have been less than 10,000
persons stanling expectant la and about Palace-yard.
They were all well.condacted and patient, and silent as
such a vast assemblage could be expected to be. The
admirable manner In which the police were ollsposed left
the tragic of the street. unimpeded; and it wee only
when the defendant entered his carriage that a threat of
disorder seemed Imminent. Till., however, was duly pro-
vided against by the police arrangements, for as soon as
she Claimants carriage ;rased out of the Palace gates the
police cloned swoon the line and formed an Impenetrable
dam which turned back the eater ltd.. Thus the subway to
the Embankment was the only channel left free, and through
this the eager crowd rushed with an impetuosity somewhat
appalling. By the time, however, when they reached the
front of the Palace-yard, the judges awl principal counsel
had left the Court. Then the gates were thrown open and
the crowd peaceably dispersed.]

Atthe sitting of the tiourt on Tuesday morning, Robert Geed.
net, the butcher from Richmond, was again cross examine d by
Mr. [limiting. He said : The last time I saw Centre was to
Wagga wagga, lust before he left for England. 1 was then
worktog for Osborne, at Brooking station, which is on the
mail road from Wagga Waggs to Deniliquin. I did anything
that was required, and was five year. in Osborne'. oeploy.
I loft In 1.80, and went et:eight to Engiand. I saw Castro
in the Australian hotel at WaegaeWagga simply ale I passed
I did not go Inside. He was at the bar. Iliad seen him three
or four months before, but cannot recollect win re in Weigga.
Wages, but I think casually in the street. I nit
not speak to him. About t valve mouths before I had
epoken to him in Higgins'. shop on several occasions, but
only had n passing word. It was a little before Christmas,
1865, that I saw Orton in Waage Wedge. I did not speak to
him We merely passed the time of day ;he said he was going
to take some ettlie lathe Lochlan.l, whereelliggins bad} sta-
tion. lie was mustering cattle ready to start. The list time
before this that Iliad teen Orton was in 1883 at Brooking, when
I ateertained his name. I then only saw him casually. I had
seen him before in 1857, but did not then know his name. I
never had any conversation with Orton. I have said I had heard
he had been employed sheep shearing at Brooking before I
went there. I first heard in Wagga Waiegathat Quire was going
ts claim some estate, in England. I heard it talked of before he
left that place. Very shortly after I arrived In England,
In 1868, I knew he was cielming the Tiereb roe eseat s and
a haeonetcy. I was then living he RI. hmond I reed pare-
grip s l's the newspapers aboot his claim, and about his
cmi Ae their Orton, lent I d n't roe Beet when. I might
have see .1 the allegation that be was Orlon in 18118-41 the
latter end that year or the beginning of 1869. The
allegation was that the person who claim° 1 the caret
was Arthur MOTE I h eve said I knew both Castro ant
Orlon, but I wade no inquiry as to where the man
claiming *as to to found. I read that a com Anion wee
going out to tale este: enoe in Aostralla on the subject of the
claim and Castreie identity, yet I made no inquiry for him or
his attorney I always lived at Richmond. Mr. Spolliorth
came to me at Richmond In 1869 or 1870. Iha i not written
to him. Re said a Meant of theirs said I knew something
about the matter, but he was not to mention the name. Ise
came daring the list inlet in 1871, and only stayed live or
six minutes. He showed me the Globe of that day,
mum m• lON the ow was &Mourned. I would noels,

positively whether he showed me a photograph or not. I
told him If I saw the Claimant I should be able to recognise
him. I said I knew Castro find Orton. I don't think he
showed me a photograph. I never as, the Claimant until •
few weeks ago. Spofforth and hlealerlt, who came atterwards,
promised I should see him, but I never did see him. The
clerk came about three weeks afterwards, and he showed me
a photograph, and asked well I had ever wen the lorro
before. I said It certainly reminded me of Castro
graph of the defendant sitting In I chair) I don't readiest
his wine it was the Claimant. I told him I knew Arthur
Orion. I don't reoolleet his showing me a photograph of a
young man (photograph of Roger produced). I won't swear
be did not show me one of thote. The clerk asked me ill
should like to sae the Claimant, and I said I should. Ile
wrote down what I said on paper. is never communicated
with me any more, nor did the firm. I cannot recollect
whether Spolfurth asked me if the first photograph re-
sembled Orion. I won't swear polltively that he did not.
To Mr. Justice Mellor : I described to the clerk both Orton
and Castro.
I:roes-examination eontlinurd : I had no further connnont•
cation with any one on the part of the defend oit or the de-
fendant hinnielt mince then until a short time ago- -a fortuight
or three weeks ago. I first saw the defendant outside the
court.l happened accidentally to he passing, and SSW • crowd
I stopped, and saw the defendamt get into a brougham I
did not recognize him the moment I saw him, nor that day
at all. Next saw him last Friday, sitting where he is now.
That was a were accident. I was sitting in the passage. I
was summoned to be at HercourVe office at ten o'clock on
Friday. There were several photographs hanging round
Ilarcourt's room. The witness Identified one of them. The
Vile;otroflaaPsth kT'rlyshiltitisdlnoe vm„a seen arnicidouer tOr statement.
1

;That I knew.
Did yon on the sth of September, three weeks ago, com-
municate to the Harcourto. Hendrik', or the defendant, that
you knew Castro, and Arthur Orion, and that tire defendant
was uot Arthur Orton f (The learned counsel quoted from
the notico given to thy Crown).—No ; I had never seen one
or the other then.
The Lord Chief Justice said that might be explained.
Mr. Kenealy : Yen; from the fact of our baring all Mr.
Spoffortles papers.
Mr. Ilawkies said he would admit nothing on the subject
until Mr. Snuff orth was put into the box.
I was not Introduced into court on Friday all I saw of
him was from the parssge at the adjournment. I did not
speak to him. Yesterday, &ring the adjournment f
luncheon, I lint spoke to him.
Re-examined : Meat is generally sold in quarters in Aus-
tralis, and isnot so nicely cut up as in England. The price
was 3d. and sp. per lb.
To their lordships : It was amen who was with Orton who
told me at Brooking that his name was Arthur Orion. I do
not know who the man was nor have I seen him since. He
Is the only person who told me Orion's name. I only knew
that Castro was the name of the deledelaut by hearing people
call him ao. I did not see his name over the butcher's shop.
Orton was a rough-skim-red man. I did not notice whether he
was peck-marked. or whether he had • scar on his face.
To the jury I never maw Orton wearing eerrings. I only
first said the defendant wart not Arthur Orton a few dais
ago, although I thought all along he was not.
To Mr. Justice Mellor : I wrote to Mr. Hawkins, bat did
not know on what side he was engaged at the last trial.
The letter was read, it was dated the 30th of April, 1873,
and was to the effect that he knew Arthur Orton at Wages
Wagga, and should like to be pot face to face with the
Claimant, when he would wen tell whether he was Arthur
Orton or not.
Mr. Hawkins observed that no mention was mode of Castro
in the letter.
Christiana Perry, from Poplar, said she lived in Hermitage-
street, Wapping, up to 1855, and worked for old Mr.
Orion. Was in the habit of buying meat in the
shop, and knew Arthur up to 1852, Was a cap maker
and tailor, and Arthur bought cape at her shop.
Before he went to sea a second time he called and asked
her to send for his clothes at Ms father's to be repaired. He
had marks on the tone, and was marked with the amall-pen,
hut not deeply. Be wore small wires in his ears, and he
had very large hands and feet. First saw the defendant at
the Pavilion Theatre on Whitson Tuesday last. Saw him
walk across the stage, and heard him speak for five minutes.
He was not the Arthur Orton she had worked for.
Cross-examined: Knew the whole family. They are very
much alike. Did not know Edmund, and could not Bay
whether he wore wires in his cars. they were called the
Royal family because they were so like each other.
(Laughter.) Did not see any resemblance In the defendant
to old Orton or Mrs. Orion.

Daniel Cotton, general dealer In Wapping, where he had
carried on business for thirty years, who also knew the Or:
tons, said he knew Arthur before he went to sea, and again
saw him at Santbuto, herding cattle. He (witness) was then
• seaman on board the Lawrence brig, an American cruiser.
It was likes revenue cuyter, for the protection of the coast
and the revenue. They went up and down the coast, but
what lay they were on" he did nt know. The seamen were
not told : they were only engaged for the month at • time. His
wife carried On his business while he was away. He
was sway about two years and • half, and started at the and
of 1848, or beginning of 1849. Saw Orton several times at
Santiago. They went into a shanty and had • spree. Santiago
was inland—two miles from a small bay on the coast of
California.
•

The Inrd Chief Tattles sald that this must be a &Hermit
Santiaso from the one they had hitherto heard of, which was
from r Wiry to one hundred miles Inlaud on an entirely dif-
ferent part ol the coast.

- - .
The witness said the Santiago he spoke of was not near
Valparaiso, and he was saran was on the coast of California.
Could not say for whim Orton was herding cattle. Remained
in the bay two or three weeks, and had leave two or three
times. Relieved Arthur Orton with a few shillings. Saw him
in 1650, hut could not recollect when—it was about the middle
of the year. Asked Orton wht re he slept, and he said in a hero
with the cattle. Ile said he was hard up, and he was very
poorly clad. Asked him If he would like to FM the brig,
End no said be would: but the captain said he did not
wants botcher. Told Orton, and he replied that the best
thing he could do was to stop there until he could speak
Spanish, am It was the handiest language to learn If you
were travelling with cattle. Orton also said he would try
to get to California and go from thee to Sy. dney. When he
jwpossey returned to Knot end he toll Orion's father and Mrs.
Orton what had taken place, and "If you refer to them they
will to 1 300 elx, same.- (Laughter ) K• em tney were dead,
but tie tieters knew it, as they were present et the time.
Told o'd Orton to write to Arthur and pomade him to come
home. The witness said he was paid off from the Lawrence
hr gin 1850, and j 'fated another mewl, which sailed horn
California to Callao, and thBn be came home by Panama,
arriv tog at the end of 1850 or 1E.51. Saw Arthur mien he
returned, lus only bit him the tone of day. 0111 Or ;on told
lone that Arthur had been uniucky in Sean Americ can as he
had lost a betel of cattle. The cattle did nut belong to
him.
Have you a good recollectl no of Arthur Orton I—Well,
middling. Ile mu like his parents—rather awkward; • big,
overgroan fellow. Al the last trial I aaw the defendant,
but I saw nothing of Arthur Orton about him. The defendant
is net the Arthur Orton I knew.
Croes.examined by Mr. Hawkins, the witness said the first
persons he told this carious story to were Arthur's pe mute
lie Mid told it to his neighbours, but he did not recoliect
meld.% any statement to • lawy r on the nu Sect lentil he
went no Mr. liarcourt's office ta o mouths ago. Prod ugly
Harding had called at his place. Knew four brothers Orion,
hut did not rememher which was Edmund. The family were
not much alike ; obey were called the awkward family. No
regemolmce ran through them, and if they were all together
each wool be supposed to belong to a different family. Old
Orton died In his deot The less people had to do with the
Ortoris the hotter.
The Lord Chief Justice I thought old Orton bore • good
winos
Witness For getting into debt. (Laughter.)
Cross examination continued: That was my lemon for not
knowing much about them. Ile then said that at Santiago
Orton was not suffering from St. Vitna's dance lie never
saw him wearing earrings, nor noticed he was marked with
the small-pox. He said he first went to sea in 1891 or 1832.
and he rave a description of the different voyage. he had
taken before going to Santiago. They included a voyage to
Australia and also to Hobart Town, and he stated
that while he was away his wife carried on the bonnets,
and that he never wrote to her, and that she did
not write to him. He did not ask Orton how he had
got to Santiago, or what he had been doing since
he left Wapping; and Orton did not ask him about hie parent.
or anything about Wapping. They did not speak much, as
they were both the worse for liquor. Ile did not return to
his ship until next morning. He paid for the entertainment
atthe shanty, where they both remained the whole night
When he saw Orton in Wapping on his return he did not ask
him how he had come home and bad not the lout conver-
sation will, Min about Santiago.
Mr. Justice Mellor Where is this place Santiago 4—Three
or fur dare sad from California, towerds Panama. It is a
whaling port
The ioro Chief Justice : What lathe latitude? I can't say.
Mr. Justice Lush : Is it south or north of the line —I
can't say; I think it is north.
In reexamination witness said it was a Thaltnn port—a
place where whalers went. Ile was there in 1850, he was
sure ; thence be went to She Sandwich blends, and he got
back to Kurland is 1851. He was not likely, he was sore, to
have mistaken Edmund for Arthur. The pica. was two
months' sail from Valparalao ; they were two months and •
half going to Callao.
In answer to the Lord Chief Justice whims said that Orton
was sleeping In a barn, but he advised his father to write to
him.
How was he to address him 7—At Santiago.
Would that find him, sleeping, ash. mu, In • barn 4—Yes;
his father told me he had written to him.
Mr. Justice Lush: The plan is In California, you said?—
Yes, on the Coast of California. Ibis two or three days' sail
from 8•11 Francisco.
The Judges referred to the map, and fonnd it, as the Lord
Chief J ustice said, 60 degree. between Valparaiso—where
Orton landed—and the place spoken of by the witness
Valparaiso was 325., and the place spoken of 22 N.—•
femme of more than 60 degrees.
Thomas Newman am a watchman la the Metropolitan
Meat Market. in 1832 I began to work in Wapping as •
collier, and continued it until 1847. I knew Arthur Orton
up to 1852. I once went with him with some thins of beef to
feed tigers on hoard a ship in St. Katherine's Docks. Arthur
was a great elop-made fellow, the owing his hands about as
though they did not belong to him. He waa 5 feet 8
or 10 tube. high. His hair was light brown, and he
Ind very high cheek bores Ells hands and feet were very
large—'he latter extraordinarily so. He walked fiat-footed,
and his knees bent in a little. His ears were pierced, but I
never saw him with wires or rings. I can't say if he was
marked on the face. His voice was very gruff. The de-
fendau Is not Artner Orion. There is to; a shadow of
likeness in him.
Croesexamined by Mr. Set-leant Perry It -was after
Arthur's first voyage that we fed the "tigers." Arthur lifted
hie eyebrows when cross and speaking. Ills hair weal
straight and a lightish brown colour. I knew all the family.
Upon my word I can't trace alikeness in the defendant. I
thought there was when I first saw him In April last in Mr.
Ilendrick's offi-e—in the upper part of the face. When he
stood up I said he was not an Orion. George was the best
be king. There was a strong family likeness in the other
brother.. Arthur was called bullocky, fat, and clumsy. It
Is so long since that I can't say if the family had a compli-
mentary name.
George Ilickmm 1 I am an nnderteker In the Mlle-end-
road. I ew Arthur before and after he returned from sea.
His hair was lighter than the defendant's I was to have
been called on the Mat trial to prove that he was Arthur
Orton but directly I saw Min awl heard him speak I Was
convinced he was not. He had prominent cheek bones, woi
his eloper lip protruded much; he was marked with the
; he had hg feet, and he walked in a slobbering
way. I beers them all. He was not knock-kneed, and his
knee did riot bend last all; he had a rough voice, quite the
reverse of the defendant's. I once heard him speak to a
geotiaman ire N lumber, when ha entere tile. boat I antici-
pated seeing Arthur Orton, but! was disappointed. I leave
had a good look at him during the trial. tie is not at WI
like Arthur Orion.
Cross examined by Mr. Hawkins: I taw Arthur on the
pteehead in 1852 or 1863 I know it was sitter I was married
(laughter), and when I was sent to fetch Mr. Barber to attend
a funeral. (Laught,e)
Mr. Hawkina : Do speak out, and don't play the mute 80-
day. (Laughter.)
Witness I When I go tobntiness I go perhaps a dozen thine
to one funeral (Laughter). I have to go to measure hasn't
II Then to take the coffin home, then a day or two alley to
know when to bury (laughter), then I take the pall, and then
to know where to boxy (laughter), and sometimes for the
money. (Leughter).
Mr. Hawkins: When you have gives your evidence you
had better watt; perhaps we may want your service&
(fliityrantdliler
igagn,;:r, t'eyer firdti
neintiee
yesest
hoeken,7weaah
in
officer,.
oq.c
June,wns nto aavrelo7B,s,:yd
nfll, beLow
ms
i. his dI
r, leg. arc
Tietc beenhe
fbe„o ra,rise.,
shy sort f 1 man, and never
visited any one. Ile was Wt lon. In Lis boots His hair
wan d ark bro cc. Lite eyebrows were very heavy and rather
arched. He morel his eyebrows up and d elm ; he walked
wide and stumpy—the left knee ben: in a little. I raw
the defendant on the lit of June last In court. I wrote
to Mr. Onalow, asking to see him. I di. 1 not recognise him at
first. I showed him four photographs, and asked him if he
recognised either of therm When he came to the third he
maid, "That's him; that's Goumart." I said, "Do yon
know html" He said, '• Yes , he got us all our horses."
My uncle old re-home them in 1852. The photograph was
that of my uncle, who died In 1886. I whispered In his ear
to tell me the name of one lady he knew In Canterbury.
He sald, "I knew Holly Hendllon, at the "Bee." HoteL"

lodge. The defendant is the same man.
Cross-examined by Mr. Berjeant Parry : Mr Webby brought
me to the court at luncheon time to see the defendant. I
obtained the photograph of My Uncle from • photographer
at Canterbury. I wagered of two if they had one about
twelve months ago. I told him that I wanted a copy to
bring to L melon with which te test the defendant. He
fonnd it was so. I did not haee It until I was coming to
London I kept the secret for the twelve months I got it the
day before I came up to town to see the defendant My
uncle had an accident in 1849, which affected one eye
One of the four photographs is that of a chemist who did
not reside in Canterbury In 1852. The American photograph
produced very mach resemble@ Mr. Tichborne. I think he
had larger ears. I don't think it Is a very good likeness.
they have 'buttered " him rather too much. (Laughter.)
He had the largest ears I ever saw in my life.
Mr Keneely : Your lerdshilps will hear something about
ears that you have never heard yet.
lie next witness woo a Mrg Woodman, who)e father, she
raid, II Sii been lodeekeeper at Gleng‘ll pack, the seat of the 1
Ex. of Glen rall. the remembered, she sad, tle Carablueers
being at Cobh. In 1050. The park Is about a mile from the
place, and the dicers need to come there to ride, and
would go In and out of the park gates. Mr. Tick.
borne often came there, and she remembered one even-
ing after mess he came with two other eileen on foot,
Cepticu Plekney and Captain Sheraton. "Lie sat down oil
e cells and Organ a c enversatie n with my f et`, er. Ceptani
Pluieney said 'Do let me rest,' and put his foot on Mr.
Tichborne's knee. Mr. Tlobborne got up and rushed at
him, and took him by the collar and ahook him. I made
a rush towards them, and Mr. Pinkney said 'Keep out,
keep out ; you know he's a Frenchman •, he'll stab you. Mr.
Ttchborne was in a great rage, and he let Mr. Pinkney
loose and went off towards the cottage. On another Ikea-
alon, he told my lather how his pipe and L *bacon, and all
that, were ordered to be taken from Ms room. He felt It
very much." The witness said she was quite certain that
the defendant is Roger Tichborne. Ile had, she said,
when she know him, a very melancholy, look about him, and
she should have known him anywhere by hie look, and by
that look she knew him when he came out of the court.
She knew the general character of his countenance. She
had told Mr. hawker she shonid knew him if she saw
him, and she did. Ells figure was very alight, but his
shoulders were rather broad His hair was dark brown
—the same as the defendant's. She had heard him
speak. His voice was rather mild. Ile spoke like a
French gentleman. The witness added,—Before t saw
the defendant Mr Bowker saw me, showed me • pho-
tograph, and gave no. • anbloona, on which I cams
to Tendon. I saw the defendant at one of the COurtli
here. I knew him to be Tkhborne the moment I saw his
features, and said so. I taw Mr. hawker the same evening,
and was told I might go back, and I did. I told some
friends what had happened, and • lawyer came to me, and
I had • letter from Mr. Spofforth, and I then come up to
town, and had an Interview with the defendant. Mr.
Spofforth was present, and Introduced me to him as Mrs.
Woodmen. I asked him it he remembered me, and he
said, "Wait a moment • let me think. Oh?" he oak, "of
course I know you flow are your father and mother?"
" They are both dead," I replied, lam very sorry," he said;
"how is your younger sister V' I told him she was very
well. He said, "how well loan remember her "flow
often ree gone down by the new bridge and met the Misses
0' Sy an there. They lived near Cahlr, and there was a
new bridge then being built." When she was speaking to
the defendant, she said, she noticed no difference in the
voice.

In cross-examlnation, the witness said the park was only
• quarter of a mile from the barracks. She was always at
the lodes, and the °Meer' were constantly coming up. She
was then eighteen, and =mare ed. Shown the photograph
of Roor, she said 'lt has a look of him ; " it ',minded her
of liku, but she Could not say It was a good likeness. She
knew Mr. O'Ryan, a brother of the Mimes Vityan.
The Court then again adjourned.

The trial was resumed en Wednesday morning at
the usual hour.

----•
Ellen Pierce, from Stroud, sister of the Mrs. Woodman
ca•led on Tuesday. and daughter of the lodge-keeper at Glee.
gall Pork, near cabir, corroborated her evidence as to the
Incident when Roger lichbonse angrily seized Captain
Plnkney by the collar for putting his foot on his knee by way
of affront, The defendant was the Roger Tichborne she
knew. Cron-examined :I am between thirty and forty. I
cannr,t go nearer than that.
From your appearance I should take you for thirty.—Oh.
I am older than thirty. I mean I cannot tell the year when I
was born, nor the mouth. lam thirty-one or thirty-two and
more, but I cannot say how mneh older.
ro the L rd Chief Justice: My mother never told me my
birthday.
Cross.examinatlon continued : We never talked about my
birthday in the family. lam sure I have no idea in what
year I was born.
Are you sure yeti are yourself?—Yes. Laughter): When
Roger Tichboine was in tne Carablueen I might have been
fourteen or fifteen Tears old.
- -•- •

That is twenty-two years ago. If you go on at that rate
we shall make you a good age byand-by.—l don't mind that.
(Laughter) Although I was only fourteen or fifteen when I
last maw Roger I Immediately, on Bestow him fourteen )ears
afterwards, recognised him simply by his walk. Tbe witness
was then asked some quesaus as to having In the first In-
stance been subycened by Mr. 11,,wker at the last trial. She
said that he showed ner some photographs, but she told
him that she wae no judge of such things She admitted to
him that the one now produced (Roger's) was more like
R ',ger than the stout photograph, and atterwards she re-
ceived a subpoma. it bore porno resemblance in the eyes
and eyebrows and brow. She bad said that Roger had a
nice soft, mellow voice, and the defendant's voice was the
some, only • little stronger She thought It was • nice soft,
mellow voice. Ole ngali Park was occupied by Lord GlengalL
Never heard it was occupied by Lord Roslommon.
-

- .
s r. Kane&ty said there was a famous poet of that name In
the last century, hut he was not aware of any one bearing
that title at the prevent time.

The next witness was William Hewett, of Iliglireirdet, Sea
Side, Uarmartritnshlre, tifty-three years of age, who was in
the service of Mrs. Hopkinson, at Beth, as footman, from
IND to 1550. When she went to Knoyie lie aiicompanied
her, and then he acted as young in ly's footman, under-
bailer, and valet. He acted as valet to old Mr Seymour
during his illness and up to his death He nrst Itexame ac-
quxlnted with Roger Tichborce at Knoyle In 1543, and saw
him on subsequent occasion.. Used to valet him." and
go lerretting aril shooting with him. Mrs. Hopkin-
son died at )(Doyle in January, D3O. Sometimes
he sparred with R iger in • room over the harness-
room Roger's sleeves were then turned up to the shoulders.
Ile had no tattox marks, or he must have seen them. In
1549, &bent four months t afore old Mr. Seymour'. death, he
accompanied him to Bath KS valet, and remained with him
until his death there in Mr. Hopkinson's hi use. Daring the
four months Boger never raid • visit to Mr. Seymour, at
Bath ria other occasions bealdes when he was sparring he
saw Roger.. amebae, and never noticed any tattoo marks.
He certainly wee able to recognise the defendant as Roger

In cross examinailon by Mr. Ussrlihis be said that In the
photographs of Roger he recognised a like Less to Roger in
the eye. eyehroae, and forehead, and also a little likeness
In the chin

l'on your oath, do you mean to say that liner T chborne
never visited Mr. neymour at B4h while to wax lying ill
there previous to his del.th did not. I wm with Mr.
leymour the whole time he au at Bath, and If For Lad
been there I meat have ii en him.
I caution you to be car. ittL Win you p'edge your oath he
was not at 11th during Mr. Seymora's last 11,neta h—lie was
not there.

eio‘,
At the last trial the defendant said he last saw Mr.
Seymour before his death at Buoyle. I give you evary op-
portunity If you have made • mistake of correcting it. Do
you deliberately swear he wes not at Bath. Ihirk before
you slAwert—Not at Bath.
At no period during the four months V—At no period.
Not for an hour I—Not for an hour. . .

••• •—••••••-•
Von deliberately mean to swear that ?—ile was not at
Bath. .

Mr. Justice Mellor: Have you any latent nu ening In that
answer ?-11.oger Tlchbotne may have come to Bath to lee
Mr. Seymour.

•
Mr. Hawkins having told the witness that he had e merlons
reason for putting the question, and remind. d him that Mr.
Seymour died In November, 1849, asked htru if he would
delWerately swear Roger Tichborne never came to see Mr.
Seyfonr I—l nave no recollection
Will you swear be did not I—l have no melt'action.
You have sworn he did not c nue. Do you swear that ?
No ; but I believe he was not there.
•

The Lord Chief Justice You have sworn over and over
again, in the most positive manner, that he did not Come.
Do yku abide by your answers I—l may have been mis-
taken.
Then be more cautious. What am Ito understand you
really do say I—The witnesa. after some hesitation, said—
Perhaps, your lordships, I have made a mistake.
Crime-examination continued : No one has sake/ me to
swear that Roger Tichborne was cot at Bath. Mrs. Hop-
kluaon was the mother of old Mr Seymour, and was t 3
when she died. Her hair was quite weite, and she was a
very old-iashioned lady in her dream She was about the
middle height, and her appearance could not be forgotten.
I sparred two or three times with kit ger, but I am sure
twice. The gloves we used belonged to Sir. Alfred Seymour.
I don't recollect whether Mr. Allred Se moor or Mr. Henry
Seymour was in the room. Some stablemen were pfteaut.
It was an empty room.
—-• • •

The Lord Chief Justice: Do you really MOW that stable-
men were there ?--Yes
- - - -

Cross-examination continued: I won't swear to the name
of any one of them. I don', recollect bow many horses were
In the stable at the time Al many as twenty and twenty-
three were sometimes kept. I won't swear there were as many
as four or five horses. I can't give the name of a single
human being who saw me sparring with Roger.

- -
To the Lord Chief Justice : I never saw either of the Seg.
mours sparrtug with Roger.

- -
Cronsexaminatlon continued The servants were in the
habit of ming Mr. Alfred Seymour's gloves, which were
kept hanging up In his room. Roger did not spar well,
but wax a fair shot When I sparred with Boger I turned
up my sleeves to the shoulders I also saw Roger's arms
bare when he was washing. I first saw the defendant in
August last year. The witness, who said he was a sawyer,
related the eircamstanoes under which he saw the defendant
at Sweeter., where he attended a public meeting at the
music-hall. lie went to Swansea, and called upon a
tobacconist named Crook, and saw a solicitor named Morris.
Was directed to go to the " Macworth Arms," where he saw
Mr. Guildford Onslow, who asked his name, bow long
he tad been with the &imams and what be knee about
them and Roger Tichbozne. He told him all he knew, and
Mr. Onslow went Into • room, and, keeping him on the
landing about two minutes, returned and Introduced him to ,1
the room, where he saw the defendant. Mr. Wnalley, Mr. I
Cook, and another gentleman beside, Mr. On :low were i
presents Did nt recognise He defendant at first, he had
grown so Immensely stout, but afterwards noticed a re-
semblance to Roger In his eyes, eyebrows, and forehead. I
The witness then said th he put • variety of questions to
the deferdant about his grandfather's hunters, degs, d
other things, to which he gave correct replies Mr. Onslow
asked him if he rememl coed Roger Tichborne visiting Mrs.
Hopkinson at Bath, and told him he had been there. He
also asked him if Roger visited his grandfather on hie death-
bed. mut he said "No; I don't believe he did." The des
fondant sold he recollect' d an ell lady : t Knowle House,
but he (witness) did not ask her name. He (wittiest) after-
wards attended the meeting and sat on the platform.
WI alley, Onslew, defen hint, and Crook spoke. The latter
rt cegolsed the dafendaitt an Roger Tichborne. He geld no
more than that he met and knew him In Australia. Did not
hear It said that a survivor from the Bella named M irgan
Harris bed been found Did not hear that Mr. Mina& y
1 atayed in Crook's houre. Mr. Onslow or Mr. Whalley Intro-
duced him ( witness) to the meetings, ati old servant from
Kmyle eke acknowledged the defendant as Roger, and then
he spoke. From that time until the present he never saw
the defendant. Bad not a shadow of a doubt that he was
Roger.
Re-examined: Never saw Roger after the death of Mr.
Seymons, at the end of November, 1849. Ile cleaned Roger's
boots, and therefore knew the sisA of hi. foot. Asked to look
at the defendant's, he said it was thicker, but was something
like Roger's.
To the jury l Tied on the gloves on Roger but never
noticed anything the matter with his thumb, or any scar on
the arm
m Mr. Justice Lush : Never mentioned the tattoo marks
until six weeks ago.
Daniel Collins, a police officer in uniform, now on deity at
Westminster, was next examined. He said that in 1851 and
1852 he was attached to the depot of the 58th Regiment at
Canterbury, and went to the theme Catholic chepeL Ile re-
collected five or six Omen the Carablneen beli.g detained
after mass before they were marched off (in these occasions
the soldiers of his regiment started first, and arrived at the
barrack. &teen minutes before the Carablueers. Did not
know the name of the officer who mfached the Carablutera,
nor Miss Hales.
Thls witness, who could not rec Wet the erect date when
he left Canterbnry, was not cross-examined.
John Palmer, a builder in Old Grata lane, aged thirty,
said he knew Arthur Orton when he was a boy and Urtou
was a man.

Mr. Justice Lash : is ft worth while a:sniffling him? lie
could not hove been more thin ten at the thoe he speaks

oi.
The lettuces seld tbst he recollected Asthur up tc the tbre
he left En land in 1662, and that one of his elven kept corn
pany wiM William On en. Was in New York in 1866, and
came heme with the defendant in the same ship. apoke to
him ones. Really believed he should have known him if he
had been Arthur. The defendant was a drachms passenger,
and lul cams in the sloseage. lie nova saw the datiodant