The Dorset County Express and Agricultural Gazette.
Dorchester, Dorset, England, 1874-09-22 00:00:00

COMMITTAL OF THE MC.DERMOTTS.

On Friday the five prisoners again made their appear-
ance before the magistrates, Mr. .tyling in the chair.
The court was thronged, and there was apparently little
if any abatement of the interest inaudosted in the
Proceeding& Mr. Howard appeared as before for the
Prosecution, and Mr. Welsford for the defence.
The proceeding,' were commenced by
The Chairman observing the case having been adjourned
till to-day, the magistrates were now prepared to hear
what Mr. Weldord had to say.
Mr. Weldord very much regretted his inability to
produce the witneee, he bad anticipated.
Mr. Howard Mid that being so he was entitled to make
a few remarks in reference to the evidenoe already given
in the difirerent caws before the Bench; that, he thought
was the usual course.

-71r7Welaford-Ton-ddered the fact of no witnesses being
present called for some explanation from himself, lie
shut,! state that immediately upon the previous adjourn-
ment he telegraphed to Messrs. Guinness and Mahon, of
Dublin, requesting them either to come theinselvesor send
: some person to speak to certain facts as to the prisoners
being in possession of property. On Saturday he received
flow them a telegram, which, as it was not evidence he
would read. (This telegram stated the witnesses could not
start on that day (Saturday) so as to reach Weymouth on
the Monday.) The message was handed in at his office,
and he was not there at the time to reply to it. Conse-
quently no reply was sent from him. lie subsequently
received • letter from Messm. Guinness sad itahou,
dated 17, I.:oldwe Green, 12th Sept. This set forth that
the police authorities of Dublin had called upon the
writers, and produced a letter from the authorities of
Weynsouth. In reference to the subject of this com-
munication, Messrs. Guinness and Mahon, had informed
the inspector of police that the Mimes McDermott had
property in Limerick, and they suggested this reply could
be produced before the magistrates at Weynsouth and
would Save the expense of bringing witnesses from
Ireland. The writers, however, added they had tele-
graphed to him(Mn Welaford) to the effect that they wend
send these witnesses If he thought they were absolute(/'
necessary. The communication further stated the mots
they received for the Misses McDermott were derived
(runs • portion of a certain estate, awl that their share
maimed about IMO a pear. Since the receipt of that
letter he (Ur. Weldord) telegraphed beck stating the case
had been adjourned to Friday-, and he had received by
telegram this reply: " Cannot possibly attend; so please
dispose of the cam without nil He had also been referred
to a gentleman with whom he had instantly commnnica-
ted, and who had sent him a letter stating it was utterly
impossible for him to be present at the enquiry. Mr.
Webdord observed he had stated these facts in order
to show that as far as he was personally concerned the
former application on Ids part for • remand was bong
Ida, for he believed at the time he should be able to
produce witnesses He understood certain communica-
tions had been made with the police and that the
witnesses had been lad to believe their prisms was
noarnamay.

Mr. Howard said evidence had been given as to the
conduct of the prisoners, and that they were persons
entirely without means. What the magistrates had now
to do was simply to consider whether there was sufficient
suspicion to send the prisoners for triaL He should be
wanting on the part of the_presecution if he allowed the
statements made by Mr. Webdord to go unchallenged.
He gave him (Mr. Welsford) every credit for doing his
' duty ; but the serious nature of this case had never been
blinked on the part of the prosecution. He had before
stated the serious risk which the prisoners ran in this case
—that of penal servitude for five years, so that he could
not understand such statements being made as " incon-
venience" and "impossibility.' He would put it to the
magistrates or to any other person in the court if they had
any relatives standing in a similar position as the prisoners,
and where a cheque for nearly .g7O had been received for
the benefit of the defence, whether any inconvenience
would have prevented them from attending to clear up
the matter. As no one had come forward on behalf of the
prisoners there was no wonder discredit RIM cast upon the
statements made by Mr. Welsford, because it was childish
to tell anyone it was inconvenient or impossible for any
witness to attend. It was true Supt. Vickery had been in
communication with the Dublin but he would tell
the prisoners it would be better for them not to call upon
him to state that evidence. Ile would in fact take the
responsibility upon himself of declining to produce the
evidence now, being content to leave the case as it now
stood for the decision of the magistrates. There had been
telegrams and letters submitted on the parte( the defence
to which he had nut objected, and if the statements con-
tained in them were true it would have been a very easy
matter co have produced evidence in accordance with the
statements so made, but Hr. Welsford had preferred to
use letters and telegrams instead of putting witnesses
in the box to be cross-examined. It such had been
done they wculd have been bound to give true state-
ments, and Mr. Websford, as • professional man, had made
the best of a bad job by putting in letters and telegrams
instead of witnesses, who when crosscamined would
have made statements very much to the injury of the
prisoners.
Mr. Welsford said the prosecution had certain evidence
against the prisoners. Ile should wish the evidence to be
made use of.
Mr. Howard should he should object to give his
friend the private information be had received. He
would take upon himself the responsibility of withholding
it.
Mr. Welsford expressed surprise at the manner in which
his friend had mentioned how easy it would have been for
him (Mr. Weldon!) to have got witnesses, but that he had
used a very wise discretion in not doing so. It had been
his earnest wish to obtain some witnesses to come forward
on behalf of the prisoners; he had nothing to blink, and
from the information he had received—not from the
' prisoners themselves, but from other sources—it could
be proved his clients were possessed of property in
Ireland.
The Chairman But you do not put any witnesses
forward. This is only a statement of yours, Mr. Welsford.
Mr. Howard : He cannot make such statements unless
he is prepared to support them by evidence. That point
was very clearly laid down in the Tichborne ease.
Mr. Welsford said he begged most emphatically to
contradict any supposition that he could have brought
witnesses if he liked. Had the telegram he received on
' Saturday last been replied to earlier, a gentleman from
". Meows. Guinness, Son, and Co. would have been
present, and proved the McDermott' had property in
Ireland which produced MOO a year, tie must ask for the
' fullest amount of license on behalf of the prisoners. If
Mr. Howard had • right to talk of Colonel Holt and
connect the prisoners with him he (Mr. Weldord) was
certainly entitled to far greater liberty on the part of the
prisoner.
The Chairman; Colonel Holt is not in the question now.
Mr. Welsford replied that the prosecution had endea-
Toured to throw the whole of the responsibility on Colonel
Holt, but he did not think the defence had. Mr. Howard
' had said Colonel Holt was a gentleman, and this, that, and
• the other—
Mr. Howani •• Oh no; I said if he were a gentleman I
. .

wcTidd not for Olio"- 1;111 give them that character—
(laughter).r).
Ur WeWord said be had been unable to ascertain the
whereabouts of the Colonel or to bold any communication
with him. When he left Weymouth it was supposed he
would return again shortly, but since that no communica-
tion had been received from him.
Dr. Drew: He left his address.
Mr Weldord :He did not _ _ _ _ _

Dr. Drew: He give It as the General Postsoffice London,
Mr. Welsford: What Is the worth of an address like
that? There was no witness he (Mr. Welsford) should
have liked to place In the box better than Colonel Holt,
but he must have seen the rep rts in the papers that be
would be apprehended, and this alone was the cause why
he (Mr. Welsford) had not been able to communicate with
or to produce him here. He then referred to the
evidence given by the Jersey witnesses, saying at the time
they gave their evidence he protested against it being
received, and he only alluded to it now to show the young
ladies who had been represented as common swindlers
honourably paid 40 or gel of their mother's debts.
Mr. Howard said he must object to Mr. Welsford mak-
ing such statements. He could bring evidence which
would completetv upset the beautiful theory Mr. Welsford
had placed before the Bench.
Mr. Web:dorsi replied it was right for him to state what
he believed to he the _truth. When Mrs. Beaucamn gave
evidence die stated the prisoners represented they had
certain expectations from an uncle. Now this was • mis-
take on her part, the person being a Mr. Slade. He had
ascertained there was £el,ooo or £7,000 left, and had seen
a solicitor in Jersey who had been employed by the pri-
soners in investigating this will, when it was found there
wax a nearer relative than the prisoners, so that they were
not entitled to a single penny.
Mr. Howard again naked the Bench to prevent Mr.
Welsford making such statements, because he (Mr.
Howard was in possession of information quite contrary
to what had been stated.

Mr. Welsford observed the Bench had heard the prose-
cution only wished to conduct this case in a spirit of fair-
ness ; yet they had heard about this cheque having been
received. It was well known from whence it came, yet in
spite of this Supt. Vickery must needs go to Jersey and
rake up evidence agairat the prisoners of some ten or
twelve years ago, whereas if he had gone to Dublin and
called in the assistance of the head-commissioner of the
police there he could have at once satisfied himself as to
the truth whether the prisoners had property in Ireland 1
or not, The cheque was ample evidence that they had
property; in fact, the superintendent could almost have
brought over the estate in the time.
The Superintendent: Yes, we might It is not very
large, I can tell you—(laughter).
Mr. Welsford remarked he was certainly surprised at
the statements Mr. Howard made. He (Mr. Welsford)
was not aware there was any such law as his friend had
laid down, but he was more surprised when he looked
into it for himself and found it to be otherwise. The
Bench knew the cunning—he begged pardon—the experi-
ence of Mr. Howard. and they might be sure he would
bring forward the strongest case, and when one of the
magistrates said he accepted the law as laid down by Mr.
Howard he was sorry to say, although Mr. Howard did
not wish purposely to mislead them, yet he had misrepre-
sented the law. In order to establish the case of Mr.
Williams against all his clients, it must be shown that
previous to the goods leaving the shop they were all
parties to the same transaction, that this transaction con-
cerned the whole of them. Each of these prisoners must
be proved to have made • false representation; it must
be shown that each of them, by certain words or acts
Induced or partly induced Mr. Williams to part with the
goods. Except in the case of the prisoner Catherine
McDermott, there was not a tittle of evidence against his
clienta. Supposing the nuigistratee decided to-day to
commit the prisoners for trial, it would be tantamount to
deciding that • whole family, a whole community, might
be taken into custody on certain representations being
made by any single pereon. He would ask who in Wey-
mouth would in that case be safe Excepting that he
thought the Bench would deal leniently with hitaself,
he should almost he disposed to conclude that, person-
ally, it was time for him to get out of the place
(laughter).
Mr. Howard suggested it would be right his friend
should adopt that course—renewed laughter).
Mr. Wehford continued that such a Me launched
against prisoners and supported by such evidence he had
never before heard of, and he hoped he should never hear
of again. He submitted the magistrates, if they even sat
for • week longer, would not in the discharge of their
duties consider they were unduly wasting their time in
listening to what had to be said in defence of these ladies.
The evidence in Mr. Williams's case was simply that the
prisoner Catherine was told the articles could not be sup-
plied except for ready money—that was the whole gist of
the transaction. Now he contended the case of ob
goods under the promise of paying for them thetitiniail
then was no case of obtaining goods by false pretences.
He had showed their clerk a recent decision to that
effect.

--
Mr.—
Howard submitted this legal objection should have
been started at the opening of the case.
The Magistrates' Clerk thought • discussion on the legal
arguments involved in the cam was at the present stage
nadmimible.
Mr. Webdoni objected to the term "legal points: re-
marking every question the magistrates had to decide
was more or less surrounded by what was termed legal
points. He had simply laid down what was the law of
the land, and surely the magistrates would not prevent
his clients from having the benefit of that
The Clerk observed he had not said they should not
raise legal points, but that they should not go into legal
arguments.
Mr. Talbot, in reply to a remark from Mr. Howard.
suggested that if this course were taken the case might
be iprolonged for another week—(laughter).
Mr. Welsford said he had espenenced a difficulty in
learning the charge against the prisonera, objecting on
that point to witness after witness, but he was overruled.
Until his friend had closed the cam how could he reply
to it!
Mr. Howard observed his friend was stating what was
incorrect, and urged that challenges as to points of law
should have been made on the ope of the case instead
of at present, when it was closed. Ills friend meat now
simply confine himself to the facts deposed to on oath.
Mr. Welsford was never more surprised than to see
how miserably his friend had failed to substantiate his
charge. It was his duty to show the magistrates what
was the law of the land. The mere promise to pay for
the articles on delivery was not sufficient for the prisoners
to be committed on the charge of obtaining goods by false
pretences. In the first tilace, he had denied that any
statement was made to Mr. 'A illiams in reference to, the
property of the prisoners, and he now stated emphatically
it was not the duty of the defence in this CAPO to produce
one iota of evidence that the prisoners had property in
Ireland. Mr. Williams could not swear that the word
property was used. Whether, however, the statement as
to the prisoners pomessing property was true or not, their
mouths had on that point been kept shut in the Court,
In order to establish the rase it was the duty of the pro-
secution to show by irresistible evidence that they did
not possess PrelfertY in Ireland. They were bound to
prove there VMS no ouch property, or that by a certain
eoncatenation of facts it was morality impossible they
could have any property there. Co ortunately for the
prorecution, however a letter hail been received from
Messrs. Guinness and Mahon, ciliate agents of Dublin,
men of well known respectability, stating theta certain
cheque had heed received by them for aome particular
purpose. What had the prosecution done t
Mr. Howard remarked his friend's statement as to the
duties of the prosecution was correct, but these du tiie hail
to be discharged at the trial itself, and not at the present
prime 'mac enquiry.
Mr. Weleford utterly repudiated this. His friend, he
knew, would have another occasion to prove that abso-
lutely and positively the statement of the prisoners was
not true, but he was bound to bring forward evidence
before the magistrates as to the great probabilities of their
having no property in Ireland. Certain information, he
contended, lied been received through the police, and this
might have leen made use of as evidence, but it had not
been produced.
Mr. Howard said if he were driven to state what this
evidence was be would do so, but It would be at the peril
of Mr. Welsford, who was speaking of a matter which
he knew nothing about. If his friend challenged him
that morning on the pant, he (Mr. Howard) would place
Chit eitYiwdasencessaibefasoret histhfrieenCrs clienlitseinswreadld osafybeia'tngo,naace
accused to be supposed, in their favour.

_
Wis Word moil there was. not one_particle of evidence
I from Ireland against Ins client
.Ile suggested that
idthough the mother came out of prison in yet the
family might then be entitled to the property. It wys
said the mother came out of prison without the gaolers
knowing as to her Passing through the Court of Bank
ruptcy. That was in favour of the prisoners. Before
sitting down he would strongly maintain it was not the
duty of the defence to prove a negative. Were persons to
he apprehended and dragged before the Bench and then
told it was their duty to satiety the magistrates there was
no truth in the assertions made against them? This he
utterly repudiated; if that were so then nobody in Wey-
mouth would be safe. Long distant be the day when that
would be the law. He repudiated it as an Englishman.
It belonged to the Star Chamber, and might belong to the
Inquisition, but it did not belong to his clients, and he
utterly repudiated that it was for them to prove their
innocence. His friend had thrown upon him (Yr. Weis-

ford) the responsibility of proving the innocence of She
prisoners, but at the same time had taken precious good
care he should not have the opportunity of doing so.
(Applause.)
Mr. Howard wee pleased to say he WM an Englishman,
and he would just add that in all criminal cases there
were three enquiries. the first being before the magistrtte,c
the second before the grand jury, and the third before the
petty jury. This was perfectly right, for it socurmi the
freedom of the priaoners—it was the law.
Mr. Weleford objected to another speech from his friend.
Mr. Howard submitted it was his duty to prove there
was • prima Janie case to be sent for trial.
Mr. WeLdord utterly repudiated his friend's law. saying
emphatically he hoped that long distant wag the day when
It would be the law of the land. .

The magistrates retired, and on their return, after the
lapse of lire minutes,
The Chairman : I will read the decision of the
Bench. The mmistratea, having. carefully considered the
evidence adduced and the 4irginuents on both sides, (Awl
it is a case that should be investigated by a jury and not
decided by the Puitices here. They have, therefore,
decided to commit the prisoners to the sessions for trial.
Mr. Welsford applied for his clients to be admitted to
bail.
__ .

Mr. Howard would not object to substantial baiL
The Chairman: The Bench will require very substantial
bail. Mr. Ayling subsopiently added : The magistrates
will in this cue receive bail—each of the prisoners in the
sum of .1:101.1 and two sureties in £5 each. [lt was ex-
plained that one surety in X 5) would be accepted in lieu
of two in 1:25 each.] The usual time, 413 hours, was to be
allowed for the production of the hail.
tin Friday afternoon Mrs. and the Misses McDermott,
being committed by the turough bench to take their trial
at Dorchester for obtaining gruds on false pretences, left
about half-past three in an open break for the county
town. A number of persons assembled in St.. Edmund-
street, to see the party who have excited on much interest,
but the public were much puzzled as to what time would
be chosen, and as the quarters rolled by the expectants
began to think that bail had lawn obtained for the prison-
ers, and that they would not go off at AL The break was
quietly kept waiting near the Belle Von Assembly Rooms,
out of notice till all was ready, till the prisoners bad been
refreshed. Theyjtook their parting meal with • bottle of
sherry, which they emetied all hut the glass. The amen,-
blue in St. Edmund-street, in spite of a false scent being
laid to the railway station, it being reported that they
would go by rail, was very considerable. About 3 :10 the
break drew up before the Guildhall, and Supt. Vickery
appeared. The first to get up were the artilleryman
Madden and Caroline Robberta, sent on a charge of rob-
bery, and the appearance of Itobberts much astonished
those who supposed shu was one of the "ladies," lint
then came Mrs. McDermott, with the managing daughter
Catherine, then appeared the golden tresses of Mary and
Elizabeth, one sick and retiring, the other bright and
cheerful as ever, and the procession was closed with Ellen,
the second sister. One of the youngest carried with her
the cage of canary birds which has lately been hanging in
the station, and the little birds hopped shout in the bright
sunshine, • pleasant change from the thinness of the
station. Mn, Vickery was kind enough to show her
womanly sympathy by accompanying the McDerrnotts,
and two constables, Sergt Apiey and Cooper, brought up
the rear. Supt. Vickery got up halide the driver, and off
started the "high-mottled pair attached to the break.
It was a fine afternoon for • drive to the county town.
Their luggage did not accompany the prisoners, which
they deplored, stating that they should want some
'work" when they got to their new place.—The authori-
ties at the Dorset County Prison refused to receive the
, canary birds, and they were sent back.