The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-12-14 00:00:00

.110USEBREAING:

Thomas Wheelhouse (18), imperfectly instructed,
pleaded guilty to a charge of having at Salford, on the
22nd of August, burglariously broken and entered the
dwelling house of Ann Myer's, and stolen therefrom one
basin and one glass the property of the prosecutrix.
The prisoner, who is evidently an experienced house
breaker, was found on being taken into custody to be
fully equipped with all the implements necessary to
gain admittance into a house, as well as successfully
resist any person who might attempt to secure him—
including a pair of goloshes, several skeleton keys, a
policeman's baton, a box of lucifer matches, and a
dark lantern. He bad effected an entrance into the
prosecutrix's house by means of the window of a room
an the ground floor, and was searching the room when
he accidently passed his hand over the face of a servant
girl who , was in bed. She immediately roused and
courageously seized the prisoner, and held him until the
remainder of the inmates came to her assistance. Sen-
tenced o,—. years' penal servitude.
ASSAULT AND ROBBERY IN curFERAS-HILL.
John Green (50) was charged with having, at Liver-
pool, on the 12th of August last, feloniously assaulted,
in company with three other persons unknown, one
George B. V. Nash, and stolen from his person one
watch, one chain, and certain sums of money, the pro-
perty of the said George B. V. Nash. The prosecutor,
who is a medical student engaged at the Infirmary, was
returning to his lodgings in Daulby-street, by way of
Copperas-hill, between 12 and 1 o'clock on themorning
in question, rather "fresh" in drink, when four men,
who pretended to be intoxicated, accosted him ; and the
prisoner, who the prosecutor swore was one of the men,
after asking him to go and have something to drink,
proposed to introduce him to " a pretty little French
girl called Desdemona." He refused both these offers,
and proceeded on his way home. The men followed
closely after him ; and when he turned down Whitemill-
street, two of them seized him from behind by the
throat, whilst the other two rifled his pockets and
decamped. The prosecutor pursued them, and on
reaching the prisoner, who was some distance behind
his accomplices, he fell, whereupon the prisoner stopped ;
and on the prosecutor regaining his feet he gave him in
charge. The prisoner replied that he had come to
render him assistance, but he was ' conveyed. to) the
bridewell and searched, but nothing found on him. The
defence set up was mistaken identity; but the jury con-
sidered the prisoner guilty, and, being an old offender,
he was sentenced to four years' penal servitude.

wasff..a
----

SPECIAL MEETING.

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Clock,

THE TOWN COUNCIL.

THE PROPOSED NEW PUBLIC OFFICES.

Yesterday, a special meeting of the Town Co was
held at the Town:hall, to Jake into consideration and
determine iipon the proceedings, resolutions, and report
of the Special Committee appointed to consider plans for
new public offices, and the following motion, of which
notice had been given by Mr. J. R. Jeffery, (at the
request of the Special Committee appointed to consider
plans for new public offices.) To rescind or vary the
following
_resolution, passed by the Council on the 14th
day of Noveinbet tast„Viz..!.-rz-"lhat the report ~be
approved, subject to the above decisions of the Cotineil,
viz., that the accommodation for the Mayor and the
Council Chamber be not removed from the Town-hall,
and that the plans, to be submitted for new public
offices be limited to providing accommodation for the
departments under the direction of the Health Watch, and
Water Committees)" and) further, "That the instruc-
tions td the gedial dthriMittee tp COtigidef plans for new
publit offices be in aeodidince with the resoliitioii, of the
Council. passed,pn,the„4o,of last 1,. and; in addi-
q With power to the centalittee td enquire and t@pott
Upon the accommodation necessary in each department
of the . public service, and the probable saving to be
effected by a concentration of all these departments."
S. R. Graves, Esq., the Mayor, presided, and there
was a pretty numerous attendance.
Mr. Jon said before the business of the Council com-
Meneed lie Wished to i-cnidrk thet,n,gl-catrdeal iiiedn-
tei4enhe,,i49. .hdiditift the-meeting Of the
Council on Thursday itisteild of on Wednesday. He
also' drew attention to the fact that several of the com-
mittees would feel not a little trouble and inconvenience
by.this new arrangement. He was not aware of what
had led to the chann.n.

The MAYOR explained that in consequence of the
*inter assizes having been opened yesterday (Wednes-
-40 ht; as Mayer of the lioroigli, felt cortivella no
§erisp„af ,dllty,thati,Cortrtest, iq attend the
Judges, and also to be present ).n hil place at the Orand
Foxy;, therethre he dorisidered that that day was not a
desirable one on which the. special meeting of the
Council could be held, and knowing the importance of
the questions that should be discussed at the special
meeting, he was unwilling that they should meet on
Wednesday, which would be a very inconvenient one
for thatyurpose,,
Mr. Jon replied that the c4iunation sive& by his
Worship was most satisfactory, arid lie was riot aware
that the Mayor attended at the assizes.,
Mr. CHARLES TV R/OR wished to be,allowed to say
that Thursdat was yartionAexly inconvenient,day for
several, ingrii era „`c:f the Cotiricil td attend: also
ietnitend tho. Thursday was the day on which the Dock
board met, and it was not desirable that the two bodies
should clash.
Mr. JEFFERY then rose —He thought no committee
of that Council would ask the mayor to call a special
meeting, unless the circumstances were of so much
importance as to render the request absolutely and
undeniably necessary. It would be in the recollection
of that Council that so long ago as the 4th of April last,
the Council had appointed a special committe to consider
the plans that were then and had been submitted to that
Council for their consideration, with a view to the con-
centration of all the offices connected with that Corpora-
tion. That committee rejiireil rqort, and submitted
it to that CiitinCil on the 26th of April, just twenty-two
days after their appointment; but it was the pleasure
of the Council to postpone the consideration of that
report, until another report upon the finances of the
Corporation should. have been submitted from the
Finance Committee. The consequence was a delay in
the discussion of that report of the Special;Committee,
until after its reappointment on the 9th of Noverriber.
Being reappointed on the 9th 9,f.iotenitiet the commit-
toe ag-aiii nitt;, adotitdd the ieport they had, previously
approved Of; and submitted it to the Council on the 14th
t,f la.4t ihonth. When they submitted that report, it
bkcited a considerable discussion, and it was rejected
upon an amendment which it appeared doubtful-to him
and several gentlemen with whom he had conversed,
whether it could in strict order be received as an amend-
ment upon such a motion, because it went to destroy
entirely the spirit and object for which the Special Com-
mittee had been appointed, namely, the concentration
of all the departments into suitable offices, to be
selected and submitted to the Council by that Special
committee. The Special Committee met, however,
subsequent to the reappointment, and their first duty
was to ascertain what they had been instructed to do.
They found instructions to find accommodation in a new
building for three committees,—the Health, Water, and
Watch. Upon enquiry they found that the Watch
Committee he longer required aceemmodationl-4er two
• reasons. tine *as that the new btilldingS in Dale-street
afforded them a considerable amend of aficoninitidatidn.
The next Was an arrangement Marie by the recommenda-
tion of the Aid it kionifilitten as to the financial business
of the VtratO 136iiiihittee that withdrew all occasion for
the use tiff Mr. White's staff from Cornwallis-street, and
tbroiv that labour upon the treasurer in that building.
When they found their instructions not to accord with
What would really be their duty practically, they consi-
dered it to be their duty at once to come to the, Council
and make that statement. Now it might not be necessary,
if that was the whole of the case, without any further
explanation, to have a special committee called to consi-
der such a question; but when they considered that the
question which was overthrown upon an amendment
was a question involving an annual expenditure by the
Corporation of £30,000 a year in salaries, for the
Council would remember that Upon a former occasion
he submitted a list of various officers, the gross
atnomat of Whose salaries eiceeded £44,000; but
inasmuch as thet-e was a portion of that staff
that would hot come within the list for the accommoda-
tion which that special committee had to provide, he
had Struck off from his amount so mutat as wield be
-kpplicable.-to those who did not require accommodation
at their hands, and he believed that something like
£30,000, not less, would be found to be the annual
expenditure upon such of their officers as would be em-
braced within the accommodation which concentration
would render necessary. But it was not alone the
salaries which were in question, but the object was to
give facilities, and to afford the greatest possible con-
venience within the most limited space to—what he was
going to say—the fabulous number of officers consti-
• tuting the staff of this borough. Now, why was it that
the staff was so excessive? why was it that the staff was
so much larger than in the opinion, not only of himself,
bat of many members of the Council, was absolutely
necessary for the well-conducting of the business of that
Corporation, provided the necessary number were to be
placed in a suitable building, arranged according to
their necessities, and according to the wants and
true interests of the ratepayers of the town. They found
practically vast inconvenience. He found that the
Borough Engineer was in that building three, and four,
and five hours out the eight hours in the the day some-
times, whereas if the Town-Clerk were to be within the
the same walls, and under the same roof, not more than
about one hour of those. three, or four, or five, would
be necessary at any one time. And not only so, but if
it happened to be on any given day of the week—he
believed Wednesday and Friday, which were days
appointed for receiving individuals who wanted informa-
tion from him, or aid of any sort—and that number,
he was told, was from 50 to 60,—he was obliged to
keep his vehicle at the door of the Public-offices, in Corn-
wallis-street, and was called away, keeping all of those
parties waiting his return whatever the interval of time
might be. Now, he took it if they could remedy that
state of things, it was their duty to the community to do
it. But it did not apply only to Mr. Newlands as
borough engineer ; it applied in a greater or less degree
to Mr. White, the treasurer of those committees ; it
applied to the water engineer, Mr. Duncan ; and it
applied occasionally to some members of their staff.
(Hear, hear.) Nor was the inconvenience confined to
their officers. He should not go very far back to give
them instances, by way of illustration,' of the excessive
and extreme inconvenience which arose to the members
of that Council in the variousalepartments being scattered
over different parts of the town. It was known to
members of the Council that the Water Committee had
been put to their wits' end to make their financial
arrangements meet with their expenditure. A special
committee • was appointed to take the sabject into
consideration. They met in Cornwallis-street last
Friday. They met there because the books were
there, and those who were able to give the infor-
mation which they thought necessary were upon
the spot. That sub-committee had not proceeded
very far into that enquiry when it occurred to them that
they should have the advice of the Town-clerk, or one
of his deputies, whether what they were contemplating
would be a legal decision when arrived at. They sent
for Mr. M‘Gowan, but he was not in the building.
Sending for the Town-clerk to such a distance as the
Town-hall, would occupy their time more than necessary,
and so they proceeded to do what they believed to be
right. On the following Monday that sub-committee
reported to the general committee in that room (the
council chamber). The Town-clerk was present ; and it
was necessary to refer to the minutes of that sub-com-
mittee—when, where were they said to be ? Not there ;
not in the building, but in Hatham-street ; and they
would have had to sit there and wait while they des-
patched a- messenger in a cab, or otherwise, to bring
those minutes, but it so happened that the Town-
clerk put his hand upon a rough memorandum
sent him for his guidance, and they made that
suffice. Well, what did it result in ? The Town-
clerk told them that what they contemplated was
illegal ; therefore the four hours which the gentlemen
had spent in Cornwallis-street was time entirely thrown
away. Now that would not have been so if they could
have had proper advice from the legal officers of the
Corporation in one building. Surely, if one happened
to be out of the way, another or another would have
been present. (Hear.) He said these were inconveni-
eneies which pressed heavily upon them, and demanded
at the hands of the Council concentration as speedily as
the Council could carry it into effect. Nor was that
all. Many members of the Council were aware that
the immediate assistant and deputy of the Town-clerk
was about to vacate his office. The Town-clerk bad
informed the Finance Committee at their last meeting
if concentration had been carried out he should not
have asked the Council to have appointed a successor.
(Hear.) There they had a case immediately demonstra-
tive of the desirability, financially, of concentrating their
public offices, and that as speedily as possible; but what
it was proposed to do was not concentration, and for his
part he should say rather remain where they were, and
make the best of what they had got than expend
£30,000 or £40,000, plus the cost of the land, or almost
anything whatever, unless they accomplished concentra-
tion. (Hear). Now, it was stated in their last debate
by Mr. Charles Turner that those who advocated con-
centration ought to put the. Council in a position to
exercise their own judgment whether the economy, or
anything approaching to the economy stated, would be
accomplished—whether or no £6,000 a-year, £5,000, .or
£4,000 a-year would be saved by concentration; and
if so, what facility would also be given in the dis-
charge of public business. He agreed with Mr. Turner
perfectly ; and he was of the opinion, and was supported
by the opinion of the Town-clerk, that the resolution
appointing that Special Committee, gave ample powers
to investigate that question. Now, if the Council had
allowed the committee to proceed on the 14th of July,
instead of suspending their operations, he had no doubt
a report would have been presented showing what,
monetarily, might have been saved, and what additional
facility would-be given both to the officers and members
of that Council ; but the hands of that Special Committee
were tied—they were desired to do nothing until the
Finance Committee had made its report; but he was
puzzled from the first, as he was that day, to know what
connection or affinity there was between that report
and the object of the Special Committee. (Hear,
hear.) When Mr. Newlands prepared pins, he

had been requested to obtain his information, as
to the accommodation required, from the heads of the
Various departhients of the Cofporation: In his (Mr.
Jettery's) qpinidn; there ednid lie nOthirig more iujudi-
ciodi and unwise, Eis those hedds *Aid look hot oply to
present. aceommoilationrequired, .but,would Also like to
s,eo,.,accolninodition prqvided for future possible and
probable necessities:. Now it was tbe,intention of,. the
Special dommittee' had they been alloWed to go forward
with the task entrusted td tlidiii, id bah bad before
them the heads of the various departments, in order that

they might individually and collectively come to a con-
clusion as to what.they thought each department would
require, so as to give the greatest accommodation, the
greatest facility, and he should say the greatest comfort.
Ant it mug. mt e lostsight of that
,the Town=clerk was
the dxfetece upon tantidipal Wheelletelved.
and if they took away the axletree, they could not i 4
what would become of the vehicle. The Town-clerk
was held responsible, in spirit, for the conduct of his
subordinates; but how was it possible lie could fairly be
held so when the different offices were scattered over the
town ? They had a recent instance of patties being
51iMnioned before the bench for non-payment of water-
-006, by (ilep!ity of the j Tite heddh clo-
*lo, ,and he thotiOt ,verS, proDerli*Tit wag ag,dtritist
hnniniOn§, for the triembei3 Of, th 6 :11"40 CeibMfttee
had themselves pronounced that the old mode Of.levying
the rate was attended with injustice, and they had anew
act to remedy the evil. Yet the Deputy Town-Clerk
summoned parties for noncompliance with that which
the committee had admitted to be wrong ; and had put
the Oorporation ; to exponse, and iridivi,dua,ls.' to the
dritic)San'e;e Of; Appearing in ?!'curt ltl arisyVef to ,h 0 slim=
Mons to vindicate themselves. (dear, hear.) When
he asked the Town-Clerk how that was done, and why,
he said he knew nothing of it whatever—that his
deputy had alone it on his own account ; he had never

consulted the Town-clerk: had he been consulted he
should have told Mi. MGowan to have done no such

thing. Now, if they were to have one head—and one
head was essential to the working; of the corporate
business=Ahat head must be the Town-clerk; and he
sdbtiiitted that efefythirig should go to the TOwri-clefk.
lii prteditinit td cirle df the principal officers of the eorpo,
ration he said. " 1e Idok to the Town.;cierfi as our
commanding chief ; we have to gti to hini for orders
and I don't go upon a question inVolVing law, however
remote, without consulting him ; but my offices are at a
distance, and I have to go to the Town-hall before I
can see the ToWn.:elerk;" Now that all Oceilpied tine,
arid theY,kriesi piaCtidally, if they had any business to
de, and were Called from their seats every quarter of an
hour, or even every honr, hoW those interruptions'
abstracted their thoughts, destroyed their time, and
copseqiiently interfered with their usefulness. (Hear,
liearl There was one question besides which was
in+olved hi tile,
.feSdidtion before them. and that
was the convenience dr nod-6°6011164e Of that Chuncil:
chamber. There were a great many. gentlemen hi the room
who suffered excessive inconvenience from the heated
atmosphere with which that room was filled after so
large a number of gentlemen had been within its
walls for three or four hours. Therefore, that was
a question which • demanded consideration, for he
was sure
,that . the_ ratepayers would never require'
them to attend there to the sacrifice of their
health, whatever sacrifice it might be of time. Then
the Council had referred to the Finance Committee the
question of enlarging that room,
,and a report was
brdught iip, einliddying ii report from the surveyor, that
the cost would be £2,004. Ike believed he was right
in saying that was not decided upon, because it was
anticipated that the offices would be concentrated, and
a council-chamber provided in the same building. ("No,
no.") He believed he was right in saving that was the
general understanding. ("No.") Well, he spoke for
himself; he opposed the expenditure Qf £2,000 on that
room, because he believed ,it Would he money throWn
aW4—tliat it. ‘Votild hot gibe theni the accommodation
required—and further, that whatever was done, Unless
the public were admitted, would be unsatisfactory..
(Hear.) He knew that opinion was. unpalatable to
some members of the Council, and he hoped that those
gentlemen who 'differed from, him would give utterance
to their opinion, that the public out of doors might
know who' were for and against the proposal that the
council-chamber, should be an open room. There should
be a 'door by which those who sent them there could
enter, listen, and see who attended in their places, and
how long they occupied their • places when they did
attend, that they might have an opportunity clearly to
see how the business was conducted; and they should
know whether a "seat there conferred honour upon the
individual, or the individual honoured the seat. He
should not detain the Cotincil longer. If there was any
information that any member of that Council desired to
receiveovhich it Was in his'power to impart, he should
be happy to give it him. .He hoped, however, the
Connell that day would meditate, Would serimisly con-
sider the result of the division to be taken that day, and
th at the cost was but a secondary point. The report submit-
ted by the special Committee was to know if the Council
would 'consent to an expenditure of £O,OOO for the
erection of ..the building ; or if that were too much, let
them say £50,000 or £4o,ooo—the committee would
provide plans which would come within any expenditure
the Council might deem necessary; and the land left
for the use of the Council, -the front land being dis-
posed of, materially 'reduced the cost. He asked the
Council to allow the 'committee to proceed, and that
they should be permitted to make a report in conformity
with the resolution upon their books,—and if when that
report-was brought up, if the Council disapproved of
the plans and expenditure, let them:at least not sliut
out the information of which the committee were
..pos-
sessed, and which' they were • desirous to give them.
Mr-. Jeffery concluded by moving a resoliktion in the
.terms of the COuneil summons:
Mr. Alderman Dover seconded the motion,

The MAyrut asked if it were the pleasure of the
council to approve of the resolution. (Loud cries of
" no, no").
Mt nEt.ot called upon the. Town-clerk to read the
repute a... 4 1.. btul ilium up on this subject, and whin
had been submitted to a former meeting of the Council,
especially as he had forgotten all about it.
The Town-clerk then read the report, which has
already appeared in our columns.
Mr. CnARLEs TURNER wished to be informed as to
the resolution come to by the -Watch Committee,
wherein they stated that they did not require any
accommodation.

Mr. jEFFERY remarked he was not aware that any
resolution had been passed by the Watch Committee to
that effect ; he and those who acted with him on the
Special Committee-received their information from three
members of the Watch-Committee, and he was not
aware that it refused the sine qua non of passing a
resolution.

Mr. CHARLES TURNER said he was perfectly astonished
at the reply given to his query by Mr. Jeffery, in refer-
ence to these proceedings. It appeared that the state-
ment that the Watch Committee needed no accommo-
dation, rested upon the mere statement of the Special
Committee, and not upon any resolution come to by the
members of the Watch Committee—it rested upon the
assertion or opinion of one or two gentlemen composing
the committee appointed for a special purpose. He
considered that a most improper mode of conducting the
business of the • Council, and the affairs of any of its
committees. He asked was it justifiable, or were the
Special Committee warranted in making a statement
relative to another committee, for which they had no
authority or power.
Mr. Avrsorr observed that he was not, present at the
special meeting of the Council in the last month, and,
therefore, he might say that he came that day to the
discussion then going on, in some respects unprejudiced.
He had listened with a great deal of pleasure and
attention to the able speech of Mr. Jeffery, on a question
which he considered and looked upon as important a
one as would come before that Council for consideration.
for some time. (Hear, hear.) It was a question
involving a very considerable outlay of exenditure. Mr.
Jeffery had, no doubt, brought forward'strong arguments
in favour of concentration, and he thought every member
of the Council should commend it, but still lie hardly
thought that the question of concentration was involved
in the question. The Council, at the special meeting last
month did not decide that there should be no concen-
tration of the public offices. The question was not that
they should have concentration, but whether they should
have a new building for the council-chamber and
accommodation for the Mayor. He thought that this
latter was really the question which they would then
have to discuss. It should be borne in mind that the
Corporation of Liverpool was a very old one, • and it
should also be borne in mind that they already had a
public building which was an ornament to the town,
and the admiration and pride of all ranks and grades,
from royalty downwards. He contended that in refer-
ence to the question which was then before the Council,
it should be taken into consideration what they intended
to do with that magnificent structure in which they
were then assembled. (Hear, hear.) The fact of .the
matter was this, that if Mr. Jeffety's plan and sugges-
tions were carried out., sooner or later that fine building
would necessarily come down, and the land be sold.
(Cries of " No, no.") He repeated his assertion, for if
they erected a building which would be a suitable accom-
modation for the Mayor and also a new' council-chamber,
he should then like to know what the public would say,-
whether they would or would not allow, or be contented
to allow such a valuable site, as undoubtedly that land
was, to remain useless, except indeed for the purpose of
the Mayor, for the time being, receiving guests and
entertaining strangers. He confessed that he had some
old and cherished associations connected with, that
building, and he should, be very sorry to see it pulled
down without any reason, at least any cogent reason,
for doing so. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Jeffery had alluded
to the subject of the Town-clerk and his assistants, and
adduced that fact as an argument in support of concen-
tration. It appeared to him that the Town-clerk,
willing and able as he no doubt was, could not perform
impossibilities. ' He got through a good deal of work,
but it was perfectly absurd to suppose that he could do
the work of three or four persons, He could not, more-
over, account for everything that was done by the many
officials employed under him ; it would be monstrous to
hold him responsible for every act performed, and every
word said, by the numerous clerks engaged in his office,
and the many persons connected witehim. For instance,
Mr. Walters, at the court of quarter sessions, the other
day, had made use of certain observations ; and would
it, he asked, be fair to make the Town-clerk responsible
for this.
Mr. JEFFERY—He (Ur. Walters) has denied it.
Mr. Avisorr, in continuation of his speech; remarked
that he recollected the time when the Court of Quarter'
Sessions and the Court of Paisage was held in the
room in which they were then sitting, and he did not
see why some plan should not be adopted by which the
council-chamber could be enlarged and extended, and
the same ground "given back to them that had been
formerly appropriated to the Court of Justice. Why
not have accommodation sufficient for the Council in the
building in which they were assembled. They should
also have .accommodation for the public to be admitted
into the council-chamber to hear their debates, in the
same way that the public were allowed to be present
and hear the proceeding of 'a public court of justice.
He did not object to the public being admitted to the
council-chamber, while the members of the Council were
discussing the various. questions that would be brought
before them ; on the contrary, he was in favour of the
adoption of such a course. (Hear, hear.) But the fact
was he did not think that the public would care about
coming in to hear their debates. (A laugh.) • They
might 'drop in out of mere curiosity for once or twice,
a
nrrdthen(Anotask Voice,
“toGitvre them an opportunity")oublethemselveabou: tcoming
again.
Mr. STEAINS said it was not often that he differed
from his friend the last speaker,----but he should do so
t o n
d o themi
t. presentr.
Anvei s
tohoncocuacgos occasion, regretful
containing
nhagd more
neve
fallaciouso listenedweve r h
te
reasoning
might
speech
from o
j be
than the one that he had just given utterance to.
maintained that for all practical purposes the Watch

Committee were amply provided in Dale-street. In the
Course of a long sPeeeli, he 'Anted MR the adtantages
that would be conferred. On the CAncil and the Corpo-
rate, estate by the principle of Concentration being
carried out: ,Tt would, Jul flip flirot pqee, affurd
facili-
ties for, the borough engineer and their ,talented sur-
veyor conferring together in: the one billiding ; then
there was, another, point which had
.not been alluded
to, and. that ~was the loss of .time which was in-
flicted iiPpn gentleman of the
,legal tprofession—such
lig his friends Alr: Avison and Mr. Lloyd. Ile appealed
to them whether the atedninicidation for them in
the Court of Passage was sufficient or not. He did
not think so, for he looked upon it as a little dog's
hole, in which he had frequently seen some dozen or
twenty members of the legal profession perfectly cooped
lip;, Witlient scarcely sufficient acommodation to move
abet.* It *do a,diseitaeo to that Corporation,—(hear,
hear)—and he wondered ie.ty introit that the Law
Society did not take the matter up as a pnblie grievanee,
for such it certainly was in every sense of the word.
He believed that by the adoption of the proposed plan
a direct saving of £6,000/a, year would be effected, and
the indirect saving would be incalculable. (Hear,
hear.)' lie did not attach much importance to the
qilestien of ithat lras to be done with the present Town-
hall ; he MO siSoke his ,o'Ori C,pirlieni but still he would
net interfere With that biiilding. He Woidd have it for
the, purposes of accommodating his `worship; and his
retinue of servants; for holding
,his banquetting and 11
entertaining rooms in it arid he would also have
secretary
,speCially retained, .particularly as he had
beep .informed the .duties of
.the mayoralty,
had, been se increased that „Akre.; 4F; Plenty, of
work for a secretary to do, and to which alone he should
have to direct his exclusive attention. He did not
attach any great importance to the removing of the
council-chamber, and if it were determined that a new
council-chamber should be built, he should most deci-
dedly advocate the admission of the public, as a conces-
sion to the growing intelligence and spirit of the age in
which they lived. (Hear, hear.) He, however, agreed
with Mr. Avison that the public out of doors might
Come in once or twice, but if they knew as much about
the Council as he (Mr. Steains ) did, they would take
very good care not to trouble themselves about coming a
third time, or about coming at all. (Laughter.) In
proof of the good that would be effected by the adoption
of the principle of Concentration; lie pointed out that
they would be able to do with one treasurer; and he
was,not quite sure whether the duties of the ToWn-
clefk, who was no*, so to speak, subdivided into
fair or' five individnalsi Might riot be cl!diie in dupli-
cate.' They would also be enabled to make a reduction
considerable reduction—in that enormous staff of
Mr. Newlands, and also in the number of rate-collectors.
He did not ask the Council to come to a decision in
the matter, but merely to refer, it to the Special Com-
mittee, or a new committee, who could, after having
gone into a Consideration of the whole question, draw
up a report; rind aritimit it .to the Cotincil. He wanted
a further consideration td lie giVen id the mattef.
Mr. CiikaLus TURNER, after hearing th 6 Speech of
Mr. Jeffery in introducing the resolution of the Special
Committee, and also having heard the speech of the last
speaker, confessed he was at a loss to know for what
purpose they had been called together that day. The
subject had been discussed at very great length at the
Special Committee meeting which was called for the
particular purpose in November. That meeting of the
Council had been called for that special purpose--to
consider the report of the committee in the month of
Noveniber, and the matter was discussed at great length
—,and after the most mature deliberation, the Council
came to the resoltition Which it had been since invited
to reseirld. The . subject also fortried matter for the
further consideration of the Council at their last monthly
meeting: Dot, it scented that they had been called
together on that occasion for the purpose 'Which some
gentlenien had in vie*, namely, to rescind' those two
decisions of the Coundil. The ratter had assumed a
very great number of phases since it was first brought
forward (hear, hear) by Mr. Alderman Dover, chair-
man of the Health Committee, so far back as 1856.
It was then stated by Mr. Dover that the object, the
sole object of the Health Committee, was to remeve
the offices merely for the purpose of removing
the offices of the Health, Watch, and Water Com-,
mittees. from Cornwallis-street to Dale street. .. That
subject was further debated in July, 1857, and a resolu,
tion was then moved by Mr. Paver, and seconded by
Mr. John' Holm, when Mr. Dover stated that this
subject was not a crotchet of the Health Committee, but.
that it was an independent and salenin resolution of
the Health .donimittee. It was also stated by Mr.
Dover at that time, that the total expense would be
about £2,700. He then *eat en to 'say, that a most
suspicious silence, had been observed by Mr. Jeffery
with respedt to the town's meeting, Which had been
called to consider this subject. Mr. Jeffery, who was
there as, pat' excellence, the representative of the people.
it the Council, or at any rate, as assumed that character
to himself—(hear, hear, and laughter),—did not at all
allude to the public meeting that had been convened to
discuss this question. Well, the solemn opinion of that
public meeting of the people of Liverpool was pretty
unanimous against any such expenditure, as alluded to
by Mr. Dover, being allowed. He then referred to
what they had.been told, that the Watch Committee did
not want any aecomniodation, and he ronfessed that, to his
mind, that seemed a loose mode of conducting business.
He thought it was so, especially after the Chairman of
the Health Committee had brought a solemn resolution
that the Health, Watch, and Water Committees should
be provided with accommodation. A great deal had
been said with reference to this Concentration of the
Public-offices, and a great deal had been said also with
reference to the inconvenience which was new sustained
by the officers of the Connell; but as to that subject
he would not say much. With regard to what had been
said about the pestiferous and pestilential atmosphere
of the council-chamber, he Would simply observe that
he would.haok round that room and he at once saw num-
bers of gentlemen who seeined._toilave been_in the hest
possible health. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Why,
'there was Mr. Jeffery himself, and he seemed to have
wonderfully improved both in looks and stoutness during
the last three or four years that he was in the Council.
(Laughter.) If it were a pestilential atmosphere the
speaker did not care about being in a better. In con
elusion, he moved as an amendment that the question
be referred to the Surveyor, Mr. Weightman, to pre-
pare plans for the accommodation of the Health, Watch,
and Water ComniittetS, either in Dale-street or at the
Sessions-house, .as he, upon inquiry, might deem ex-
pedient.
Mr. EARLE, in rising to second the motion, said it
was perfectly clear that everybody in the room should see
that the reason the present meeting was called was for
the purpose of canvassing the question, whether they
should have a large hall that certain members of the
Council might have all opportunity to gratify their little
vanities in hearing the applause of the public ringing in
their ears while listening to their speeches. (Laughter.)
Mr. Jeffery seemed particularly anxious that the public
should know who voted for this measure, and who voted
for that, and who voted against it. He for one should
not have the least objection to the public being admitted
to 'the Council-Chamber were it not that it was more
than probable they should have inflicted on them longer
speeches in consequenCe. (A laugh.) As to the sick-
ness visible in the room, by reason of the meetings
being held in the council-chamber, he candidly con-
fessed that the only nausea he ever experienced in it
was to heat a long speech. (Loud laughter.) It made
him sick, :perfectly sick. if also the number of times
that Mr. Jeffery rose to address the Council were
counted, it would be found that he occupied more
time than any three or four persons in the Council.
(Hear, hear.) He would) however, say that that gen-
tleman's arguments in favour of concentration were
excellent, and in having the offices removed to Dale-
street, but the opinion of the town was not in favour of
that body being removed front the building Where they
then were. (Hear, hear')
Mr. CLARKE ASEINAII said he had been perfectly
alarmed by, Mr. Steains on that occasion. He thought
his kind sympathy for those members of the Council
who were of the legal profession was entitled to a great
deal of consideration. He did not, however, agree with
Mr. Steains, or Mr. Anybody-else, Who said that the
question of the existence or non-existence of the Town-
hall for municipal purposes was a minor point. (Hear,
hear.)

Messrs. Stitt and Parker also addressed a few obser-
vations; to the Council on the subject.
Mr. SHIMAIN then rose and addressed the Council.
He said—lt Seems that this question of proposed new
public offices, though now very complicated, had its
origin in a very simple proceeding; and further, that
when thoroughly investigated, it comes back again to
the same proportions. (Hear, hear.) The object of
purchasing the Saracen's-head in Dale-street by the
Finance Committee, was for improvement. They then
proposed to sell, but the Health Committee got counsel
to stop them, on the ground that the site was good for
the Cornwallis-street offices, Then the scheme for new
offices enlarged—first, by the Chamber of Commerce
suggesting the removal of the Post-office there ; and
secondly, by suggestions to remove all the Town-hall
offices to the same spot; and an Act of Parliament
obtained for all the three purposes in 1858. From that
period up to the present moment, we have had nothing
but squabbling, and the public have to pay interest and
sinking fund on about £llO,OOO, exclusive of the large
amount paid by the Finance Committee, without a
particle of benefit to anybody. The whole proceeding
is, to my mind, anything but creditable to a company
of gentlemen pretending to be conversant with business.
Having got the land tied round our necks, the question
now is, what are we to do with it? The Government
decline to proceed with the Post-office part of the
business ; then there is an end to that. If I understand
the matter rightly, the Health Committee say that their
offices are not suitable for the work. The Water Com-
mittee say the same. Sir, I think they are entitled to
be consulted, and to have their reasonable wishes
attended to. Now really, sir, this is the only subject
upon which any alteration whatever can be fairly
demanded; and the wishes of the two committees can
be met by providing them with a suitable place on the
land in question. (Hear, hear.) This would involve
but a comparatively small outlay, and would leave a
large quantity of land which should be sold without
delay. Indeed this is all the Health Committee origi-
nally asked; and the scheme for concentrating all the
offices, is something that has been grafted upon their.
resolution by other hands. That is a subject which
they, as a Health Committee, have nothing whatever to
do with—it is wholly beyond their province. The
Cancil has already determined that the scheme for
new offices shall be of the limited character I have named,
and this it did deliberately, and by a large majority of the
Council, at a meeting, specially called to consider the ques-
tion. Those who wish to alter that resolution are, I submit,
bound to satisfy this Council as to what is to be done
with this magnificent and valuable building if the
business be removed; and if they can show anything
satisfactory on this head, then they must next show
some advantages to be gained by tho change commen-
surate with its cost. (Hear, hear.) Sir, as to throwing
away the present beautiful Town-hall, that is a pro-
position so absurd as not to demand a word from me.
Now, what are the advantages suggested supposing this
difficulty be got rid of ? Mr. Jeffery has told us con-
centration will effect a saving of £6,000, a year ; but it
would be much more satisfactory if he told us how ! I
deny it, and challenge him to make good his statement.
Supposing all the offices were under one roof, there is
not one of the heads of departments that can be dis-
pensed with. And if Mr. Jeffery differs with me let
him name the than who is unnecessary. Sir, you may
possibly dispense with a draftsman or two by bringing
the surveyor's and two engineers' staffs together; and
you may strike off two or three copying clerks if you
bring the different branches of the Town-clerk's estab-
lishment together; but you can do no more, and this
will not effect, a saving of -6,000 shillings. Sir, I warn
this Council against being led away with vague un-
founded statements as to any pecuniary saving worthy

of notice being
.possible. I protest in the name of the
ratepayers against their money being thrown away
Upon any such pretext. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Thnaßocates of Otteentratioft appear to have no great
confidence themselves as to pedumary saving? for they
het up' another reason, namely,_ that it will he Worth all
theiexpenditUreHthat thew Ton:clerk should hale' the
different gentlenien,‘Who conduct odr business, in
the,same building with hinf. IsToW,,this, to say
the most,:
can :only, apply.to, two offieers and it inVoltds , w sop
charge against them,.which,
,if worth anything, ;would
represent them to be undeserving of our ,confidence,
They are not here to defend themselves;: I think
,they
need no clefetite; Those who knovr how ,these gentle-
men conduct their business, wiil admit that we shall,get%
no more out of them, with any amount of sebjection
under which they may be placed ; and if so, then this
pretext
.for concentration is as shallow and unfounded
as the 'alleged necessary saving. All that is really
nesiessary, Mr. Mayor, will be accomplished by erecting
offees for the Ifealth and Water Committees, in an
inexpensive form, tied fealisiog p quickly as possible
the rest of the valuable property row running waste.
(Hear, hear and applause.)
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE then rose and addressed
the Council. He would commence by stating that he
little thought that to a faithful servant and a distin-
guished man—a man admittedly possessed of great abi-
lities---siteh aft Insult would he offered to his judgment and
discretion, as that there should be found members of the
Tdwii Council Atha tould rise and ignore one of the
most able reports .eVer presented to the Council by, the
ToWn=clerk: SiirelY, if there efer was a document
*tight ;into existence, Whin decrial along with it
trail withdtit flctidn, ,it i*ag this rettort, *hid' so,
fully and fairly detailed . ciert eirOtiistande dorineaed
with the question. He felt for the position u Which
the Town-clerk was placed,, as that gentleman winild
see that the drift of this debate was likely to end in an
opposite direction to what he had pointed out. He
felt that the Town-clerk had not had that measure

of justice dealt out to him which was his due in
in preparing and considering that report. There was
that in the report which the Council had never yet dis-
covered, namely, the best means of economising its
expenses, and rendering the management of the corpo-
rate estate much less expensive than it has been. The
chairman of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board—for
what reason he could not tell—had taken an active part
in reference to this matter, and in the discussions upon the
subject; and it certainly came with very bad grace from
a gentienian who was a member of the Dock Board; and of
that Council, to say that he thought silty-foot members
of the Connell, independently of the gentlemen of the
press, slniuld Eliot Within those walls, while that gentle-
man, as chairman of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board,
where the members did not number crier tWenty-eight,
sat in a larger room than the council-room. Mr. Turner
had the advantages of finding himself in a large, airy,
capacious, and commodious room, while the Council
was obliged to sit in a small room. What would Mr.
Turner think if the several committees composing the
Dock Board met in different parts of the town ? and if
Mr. Tdrner justified a division of labour with reference
to the Wilding in which they were sitting, why did he
not apply the same firiiielple in the same way to the
Mersey Dock Board ? The speaker. theft referred to Mr.
Clarke Aspinall; and said that although they niast all
admire the ability of that gentleman, yet upon this
occasion he had really not got to the commencement of
the question. The surveyor's report, to which Mr.
Aspinall had alluded, stated that the scheme was prac-
ticable; but it was burdened with so many objections,
that the Council were induced to abandon it for the
time. Mr. Aspinall was also under a misapprehension
in supposing that that building, if the Council left it,
would be friendless and deserted. Did any man suppose
that, with such a splendid site of land, there was no
owner to be found for the Wilding ? This subject had
been so frequently before the Council, that he had a
sort of nausea in again hearing it. debated. He con•
chided by saying that he would hate great pleasure in
supporting the motion of Mr. Jeffery.
Mr. JEFFERY rose to reply: Whatever might be the
result of this debate, he felt that every one had had
ample time and opportunity to come to a right conclu-
sion. Mr. Avison, he understood, was agreeable to the
accommodation being granted for the public offices,
minus the Council Chamber and the accommodation for his
Worship the Mayor. But he (Mr. Jeffery) would not with-
hold his opinion from that Council that if they went so far
they must go on further, and would very soon discover that
they had been wrongly advised. Mr. Avison supposed
that the Town-hall must be pulled down, but he could not
understand why this should be; and he (Mr. Jeffery) did
not think that after hearing what had been said to-day
he would be of the same opinion. Mr. Turner began
by saying that Mr. Jeffery had ignored the public town's
meeting. This he would deny. At that town's meeting
the opinion was certainly in favour of concentration, but
it was thmight that it should not be done by taxing the
ratepayers, but out of the present means possessed by
the Corporation. He would ask Mr. Turner how he
would like the Dock Board to meet in that room and
have their papers and documents at the Revenue-
buildings ? He would go further, and would venture
to say that if the Council were to offer the rooms
to the Mersey Dock Board, Mr. Turner, as the chair-
man of that board, would refuse it, because it was
detached. Mr. Turner proposed that the Council should
ignore its own existence and' decide that it was incom-
petent to consider the question, but leave it to one
individual. Mr. Jeffery then referred to Mr. Earle,
who commenced his remarks by saying he was sick.
Mr. EARLE—What's that, sir ?

Mr. JEFFERY (loudly)—Why, you said you were sick,
and the sick generally require a nurse.
Mr. Entix—You have nearly broken the drum of my
ear. (Laughter.)
Mr. JEFFERY, in continuation, then referred to Mr. C.
Aspinall's speech, and to his allusions to the closeness of the
council-chamber. When the chamber was first constructed
only forty-one members met in it, and now there were
50 per cent. over that number, who had only the same
accommcidation as the forty-one had. And he would
ask whether the old corporation ever sat from eleven to
four and five o'clock every month, and sometimes twice a
month. Ile believed that if they gave permission for
this report to be made, it would be such a one as had
never been heard before. It would give information to
the Council which would enable it to come to a decision
as to whether the offices should be erected or not. • But
i(they negatived this resolution, they could not justify
their conduct to their representatives.
Mr. TURNER said he would withdraw his amendment,
and be content with a negative to Mr. Jeffery's motion.
The question was then put to the vote, when the
voting was as follows :
For.—Aldermen William Bennet and Thomas Dover;
Councillors John J. Stitt, Richard Sheil, James Crellin,
Roger Haydock, James Steains Edward Estill, John
Rogers, Robertson Gladstone, james A. Picton, James
R. Jeffery, Richard M. Beckwith, J. W. Cropper, and
Thomas Vernon.

Against—The Mayor; Aldermen John Buck Lloyd,
James Parker, Thomas Robinson, Joseph Cooper, J.
Hayward Turner, Richard C. Gardner, and J. Bramley-.
Moore ; Councillors Thomas D. Anderson, Daniel Cros.
thwaite, Clarke Aspinall, John Shimmin, Wm. Johnson,
James Tyrer, Charles Turner, Thomas Avison, David
Rae, Henry C. Beloe, Thomas Ridley. W. P. Jeffreys,
Thomas Wagstaff, Thomas B. Job, James A. Tobin,
Charles Motley, William Earle, Robert Hutchison,
James Johnson, George Nickson, Joseph Kitchen, John
Farnworth, Samuel Siddeley, Joseph Steel, and J. G.
Livingston.
The motion was consequently lost, by 15 to 33.
There being no other business before the Council, the
meeting terminated.