The Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1860-11-10 00:00:00

of property on the other side of the water, he had the
greatest pleasure in seconding the resolution.
Mr Alderman DOVER—Suppose that motion to 'be
carried, .the Mayor Would not be entitled to have a seat
In the Finahee Cohunittee. lie would, therefore, move
as Rn'ainendnient that no: member of the Dock Board,
" eAce_pt the. Atop'', fot: the time should be
placed-on the kinanc'e Coithatinnl,
Mn Alderman Ste Wart anent-tiled the amendment.
Mr. SHELL said he had no objections to iih?e to' the
amendment. _ _

Mr. CHARLES TURNER argued that if there was any
plea for the, objection, and there might be strong objec-
tions, he did not think that that was the proper time
for making them. He thought that the matter should
tie considered when the names of the committee were
&lied over. If the Council passed such a sweeping
icsolutiov,ds thee; be thought it would be getting into
great difficulties, attl ;11 some degree impoverish its
OfeitiaiißEistNift hopeilihat the good sense of the
moter andthesedelAir of the am'en'dment Would /mime

tTern to withdiao
Mr. STEA.INS hoped that the mover and the s'eoOhder
would have the good sense to pefseitie in it He was
not surprised that Mr. Turner had spoked Ortiit4
because he belonged to the Dock Board. He would
not ask the Council to call in question the names of the
gentlemen who were thus situated, because there were
tyro men whose honour and integrity he respected—
Mr. Tobin and Mr. Farnworth. Since be (Mr.
Steamy lied had the honour of being one of the com-
mittee,. the cot tnittee bed received great assistance from
the's& taYo' gegtletien, and he could say that Mr. Tobin
was one a Cie most valtiable members the committee
had, bui he felt boun'd stippbrt the motion:
Mr. PICTON agreed with TUMet, the chairman
of the Dock Board, that the prelim' time it,' digits the
question would be when the names were proposed tipen
the committee. He did not agree with such a sweeping
resuation. „ _ _

Mr. STriei spoke in, support of the resolution.
Mr. Bowarivei saii4 that the arrangement for the
exclusion of the members of the Beek bard from the
Finance Committee was not new, fOr V 5 believed that
when the Dock Board was a part of the corpoidies estate
a resolution was passed that no member of the Doors
Committee should be a member of the Finance Com-
mittee; therefore, considering the importance of the
efitestictuf and the great amount of the interest involved,
he should rapport the motion.
11fr. VERNON said he bud been listening to all the
obiectiens that bad been Made against the members of
the DoCk.Boatd being plated upon the Finance Com-
mitted, drki if ilieie WaS anything valid or strong in
them, it was that sticlY d dourse should be adopted.
They would recollect that whatever that
was done by the committees -Was confirmed
until it was brought before the Council and dis-
cussed ; therefore if the members of the Dock Board
were, excluded from sitting on the Finance Com-
mittee, Pt
,woald become requisite that they should
also be excluded ftpm having a seat in that Council.
(Cries of "No, no," aird "des, yes.') For a colossal
fabric like the trade of the Fusin and pFrrt of Liverpool,
it was necessary that that fabric should rest on a firm
and sure basis. It was the Corporation and tht Dock
Board upon which that fabric rested. Those were tle
two columns, and if they removed one column, the fabric
would be dependent upon the other, and it would be
endangered ; but while it rested upon the two, it was in
safety. He urged that the two great interests should
be Mote and more united together, and then the trade of
the port Worild be In safety. Therefore, he should
oppose the motion.
Mr. Alderman BRAMLEf-MOUEE begged to offer one
or two remarks upon the siblecti and said he agreed in
the view, on the broad principle, taken by the mover
and seconder of the motion, but he did net thitik it
shchild Ye~ tarried out in regard to the existing members
of the Fifiirriee ComMititee Who were so situated. He
was a member of both the Dock Board and the Finance
Committee, as was also Mr. Tobin add Mr. Farnworth,
and he should be sorry to lose their ?services in either
place. But, as a principle, he thought in futnre that
they should not let any new members of the Dock Board
be placed upon the Finance Committee, because in a
short time circumstances might arise when the interests
of the two estates might, as had been said, become
antagonistic: But, while he objected to any member of
the Dock beard being on that committee, he more
especially objected to the Mayor being on such committee
if he was a member of the Vatic Board. If, as Mr. Dover
had suggested, there should Be a>3 e±ception ; that
exception, in his opinion, should not be the Mayor. He
would give his reason why he should object to the
Mayor being on that committee: The Mayor was fire
recognised head of the town, and as such it is possible
that he may be called upon to go to London, with other
gentlemen, as a deputation on subjects connected with
the docks. As stall he would retire from the deputa-
tion, and when they got to London the question would
be asked, " Where is the Mayor," for the Mayor of Liver-
pool seas second to none in the ICingdom ; and when the
deputation answered, "The Mayor bad to retire from
the deputation, because fie' Was a member of the Dock
Board," lid would ask would not that be most damaging
to the interests of the town. They knew that the office
of Mayor was a most important one, and he knew that
if a deputation went from the town to the Board df
Trade without him, it would be most damaging to their
interests. The real objection, he thought, was to the
Mayor, as a member of the Dock Board, being on the
Finance Committee. But he should vote against the
resolution, and because he thought that no new mem-
bers of the Dock Board should be admitted ; and if
another was to be proposed, he should vote against him.
He did not think the Council would be treating those
gentlemen who were on the committee with respect if
they adopted the resolution, therefore he should vote
against it.
Mr. I. A. TOBIN was sorry Mr. Bramley-Moore had
formed the opinion he bad done on the subject, because
he (Mr. Tobin) took quite a different view of it. His
onjsat was. and always had been, to unite the two
estates as closely as possible. He thought that if the
resolution was adopted it would ignore their position.
In answer to the observations made by Mr. Gladstone, he
said he had absented himself from the committee when a
bill, of which he had charge, was opposed by the Corpora-
tion, a bill which he thought had been a great benefit to the
interests of the town. In reference to the reversionary
interests of the property at Birkenhead, he felt that by
the members of the Dock Board being on the committee,
the interests of the town would not be endan-
gered, as he believed it must be referred to a third
Party ; and he did not believe that any member of the
committee would be actuated by feelings against the
interests of the town. For his own part, he bad no
personal interest to serve; and he would take care to
look after the interests of each, both as a member of the
Dock Board and as a member of the Finance Com-
mittee, and do that which he believed would be most
conducive to the interests of the town.
Mr. J. R. JEFFERY offered a few observations on the
subject, and said 'as the representatives of the rate-
payers all party feeling should be removed, and they
should devote their energies to the good of all. How-
ever, it was well known that the Finance Committee
had the means of getting information on subjects which
could not be got elsewhere; and although members of
the Council, they were not in the position to get the
same information as that committee could. This Was
not a new question, and it had been acted upon
before ; and if it was found necessary to act upon it,
when the two estates were as one, how much more
necessary was it that it should be acted upon, now that
the two estates were separated. As there was a diffi-
tulty in the matter, he thought the difficulty could
easily be got over, if the two gentlemen on that com-
mittee, and who were also members of the Dock Board,
were to retire from that committee. (Laughter.) Gen-
tlemen might laugh but all he could say, if he was
placed in such a position, he would at once retire, nor
would he ever sit upon any committee, if objected to, if any
Just oujectiou eoula De raise(' against ram. He hoped
the two gentlemen would not divide the Council upon
the question, but would retire. (Laughter, and hear,
hear.)
Amidst loud cries of "Vote, vote," Mr. Shell briefly
replied, observing that he had but little to say, for the
sneakers bad answered each other in the course of the
debate ; but against the principle of the proposition he
had not heard a single reason advanced.
The Towsr-GLEBE said he did not see how the propo-
sition of Mr. Alderman Dover could be put as an
amendment, and suggested that Mr. Sheil's motion should
be put first, as a substantive motion, and afterwards a
vote should be taken for Mr. Dover's proposition.
The Council then divided upon Mr. Sheil's motion,
which was carried by 29 to 26.
The voting was as follows :
For—Aldermen W. Preston, T. Dover, T. Robinson,
John Woodruff; Councillors T. D. Anderson, J. J.
Stitt, R. Sheil, C. Aspinall, J. Crellin, R. Haydock, T.
Avison, J. Steains, E. Estill, H. C. Beloe, C. T.
Bowring, T. Ridley, J. Rogers, J. H. Wilson, T. B.
Job, C. Mozley, R. Gladstone, J. A. Picton, J. R.
Jeffery, 3. Johnson, T. L. Hodson, G. Nickson, J.
Aikin, R. M. Beckwith, J. Farnworth, J. W. Cropper,
and T. Vernon.
Against—The Mayor, Aldermen J. B. Lloyd, W.
Bennett, J. Parker, J. Cooper, J. H. Turner, R. C.
Gardner, J. Bramley-Moore, R. W. Houghton, J.
Stewart; Councillors D. Crosthwaite, J. Shimmin, W.
Johnson, W. Barton. J. Tyrer, C. Turner, -W. P.
Jeffreys, T. Wagstaff, J. A. Tobin, W. Earle R.
Hutchison, Francis A. Clint, Samuel Siddeley, and J.
G. Livingston.
Mr. Alderman Doven—l will now move that no
member of the Dock Board be a member of the Finance
Committee, "except the Mayor for the time being."
After some conversation as to how the motion was to
be put, the Council divided, when Mr. Dover's motion
was carried by 30 to 24.
The voting was as follows :
For—The Mayor ; Aldermen J. B. Lloyd, W. Bennett,
W. Preston, T. Dover, J. Parker, T. Robinson. Joseph
Cooper, R. C. Gardner, R. W. Houghton, 'I. Stewart;
Councillors D. Crosthwaite, J. Crellin, R. Haydock, J.
Shimmin, W. Johnsoe, W. Barton, C. Turner, C. T.
Bowring, T. Ridley, W. P. Jeffreys, J. H. Wilson, T.
Wagstaff, T. B. Job, R. Hutchison, J. Johnson, G.
Nickson, S. Siddeley, J. G. Livingston. T. Vernon.
Against—Aldermen J. H. Turner, J. Bramley-Moore,
J. Woodruff; Councillors J. J. Stitt, R. Sheil, Clarke
Aspinall, J. Tyrer, T. Avison, J. Steains, E. Estill, 11.
C. Beloe, J. Rogers, C. Mozley, R. Gladstone, W.
Earle, J. A. Picton, J. R. Jeffery, T. L. Hodson, 3,
Kitchen, J. Aiken, F. A. Clint, It. M. Beckwith,
J.
Farnworth,' J. W. Cropper.
THE ELECTION OF COMMITTEES.
Mr. Alderman Stewart then moved that the following
gentlemen constitute
The Finance Committee : John Stewart, Samuel
Holme, John Bramley-Moore, James Parker, John H.
Turner, Joseph Cooper, James Tyrer, Thos. Dover,
William Earle, John Aikin, James Steains, Richard
Sheil, William Preston, Robertson Gladstone.
Mr. STEWART—In consequence'of the resolution the
Council has just come to, it will be my duty to move
two gentlemen in the place of Mr. Tobin and Mr.
Farnworth. In the place of Mr. 'Tobin, I will move
Mr. J. B. Lloyd.
Mr. JEFFERY--I wish to know before that is put to
the Council, who is the second person you intend to
move ?
Mr. STEWART—Let that be put first.
Mr. JEFFERY—It is not according to custom. ' I
appeal to the Town-clerk.
Mr. STEWART—It is usual only to propose one at a
time.
The TOWN-CLERE—The usual custom has been to
read over all the names first, and afterwards each name
is put to the Council.
Mr. JEFFERY—Such being the case, I ask you for the
second name, for it may influence the votes of gentlemen.
Mr. STEWART—Bat I am taken by surprise. (Laughter.)
However, I will usage Mr. G. Mozley. (Hear, hear.)