The Dorset County Express and Agricultural Gazette.
Dorchester, Dorset, England, 1868-10-06 00:00:00

Ma pest sad bepertaat metier,.
.witisti evideotally lies
ett7 agar to his heart, and IMOD he thinks le most
stalely econeolell with the future welfare of the State
and *mar/ (applause). Thom leads were not present
Ht etP•tbed that In the beton reed or referred to,
woe essese wood have beim gins for their sheemes,
bat their names were not even meatioseed. Were ahoy
then to ergaie from their abuses sod alleges that they
het no Winn* In the meeting? mid that they were, in
feat, urging forward, quietly as( la their ewe way,
we disestabildegune end dissedoement id the Irish
dearth 1 He coaeldered their amines most j *oiliest:it
Take it ea they might, it ingested there was • want of
unity amongst the dery and the laity 111110 of the
church of England with regard to this important
question of the Irish °berth. Now let them look at
some of the thing, saki on that occasion. In thinking
over whet he beard, and then on reading the reports in
the newspaper., he wan *track with the feat that
meeral Ides. were referred to over and Oelet
again by Ibe inteesseire speakers, and he thought, on
Wing tolled en to address a few words to them tonight
he would look at one or two of thou ideas thus retered
to again and again.. Tim sopremaey of the Crown was
the first topic, and they were told over nod over, and
also in the resolutions passed with 1111011 unanimity, that
If the Irish church be disestablished and diseadowed the
enpremacy of the Crown will be endangered. Now he
mainteined that the supremacy of the Crown wag in
danger in Ireland; if not, why Ilan the /lab= Corpus
Act been 'upended for some two years? Of course he
should be told that was owing to the oilstone of
Fenianism —0 conspiracy which, her been hatched in
America, has taken some root in Ireland, and has for
its object the subversion of the supremacy of the Crown
and English interest in that island. They were always
told that Fanianiam was a plant of American origin,
that all the Fenian leulers came from America, they
had been trained there to the use of arms, that there
they have gathered up these seditious lima, and came
from thence to proclaim them throughout Ireland and
even in our own country. lint, he would ask, whence
canes the seed of this pleat that Ins grown on American
soil ?—(hear, hear). If they traced hack the origin of
. the bud, whence the bitter plant had arisen, they found
It was first produced in Ireland itself. For years
and year. there had been • feeling of discontent
in 'lreland, a feeling ef injustice amongst the people,
and In maintained it was out of this feeling of iliacon•
J tent and injustice Rat on the American soil thie noxious
plant of rentanistn bed sprung up. Now this Yeisianistn,
onginoting ea he maintained in Ireland, was endangering
the supremacy of the Crown. But, they might ask,
, whence had .rung that feeling of discontent which had
given no. to FenleniSol. MIMI reasons might be given
end many Magee =tined, hot he thought most of those
present would agree with him in oaring that one of the
sources of the potent was the existence of the Irish
breath of the United chord of England and Ireland in
that country—(applause)—for the established cherish in
Ireland was, as Mr. Disraeli well described it, an
"alien" church -the church of a small minority—the
church of some 700,000 people —(applaue). It was the ,
church of • number of people such as were contained in
a large city like Manchester or Glesgow. Now, if all '
that 700,000 were grouped in one spot, the existence of
the Doh eiurch established in their favour might tie
endured without any grave feeling of discontent; but, '
being spreal over the whole country, thrust in the hue '
of the whole population of the land, it caueed
chiefly, as hs maintained, the feeling of discontent
which bad been manifeeted—(hear, hear). Just to give
an idea of the way in which the Irish church was spread
over the country for those 700,000 people, lie would
give then • few statistic, from national sources. In the
diocese of the Archbishop of Armagh, with • population
of 150,77 e, there were 170 benefices, ast. one to Mei
persons: that proportion they would soy was not very
bad. In the diocese of Cork for a church population of
44,228 there were 170 benefieea, or Ito every 260. In
Cashel for a church population of 9,078 there are 62
beeefices, or 1 to 146 persona—(laughtee). This was
Putting the wetter in it, most favourable light, for
It was well known that in many benefices there were
perishes to which no church population was attached,
many parishes where there were no people for the
minister to peewit to ; in fact, that this "alien" church
is scattered through the country and thrust in the face of
the whole people, and it is =turd for it to create the
greatest feeling of discontent They wen told, as they
had already been reminded, that the Irish church is •
missionary church, the answer to which had been
already given—that, as a missionary church it had
grievously failed. After an existence of more than 300
years, it was difficult to point out that it had made any
advance to words converting the country to Pro testentien.
They were were told in very affecting streins the other
day that the Irish church was the means of keeping
, an open Bible in many parishes and that if it were '
, not for the Irish church there would be no open
' Bible in their midst. All he would say was, that open
' Bible thus said to he =detained by the Irish cherish in
those parishes, was Indirect coetradiction to the spirit
I
1 of that church by which it was kept open, for he resit
I in the Bible our Saviour'. own worda,my kingdom is not
of thli world ; if my kingdom was of this world then
would my servants fight, they would use the sword to
uphold their interest., to maintain my kingdom and
nation--(applause). Oftentimes the Irish church had
retorted to the sword, and it was maintained by force,
In direct oppposition to that "open Bible" it kept in
jthose parishes—(applause), They were told again that
at present the mod peaceful relation. existed between
• the clergy, their parishioners, and the rest of the pot/-
Walton ; and some very pretty pictures were drawn by
eie or two of the speakers of the feelings of the peasantry
towards the elegy of the Irish church. They were
thorn that in some oases the peasants have such
great respect fir the English clergy that they go to them
for counsel rather than to their own priest. I All this
might be true to the life; and no doubt the state of
things at the preeent day, with regard to
is the risk
iiit.
church very different from what it was 7 ego.
14°°. `l.' TitheC'"'.....4•lYou Act of 30 yeses i all
things had gone on pretty wouttiy, lest whet ha ed
preset lardy to the passing of time* stet ? by what eau.
I were the Glory than eapportad ? and what menus were
adopted to collect the tithes? It was a matter of feat,
recorded on the page of history that again and •gsin
men were hailed to prison for non-payment of those
Whoa it was recorded that one archdeacon went at
the hi ad of the tithe-collectors, and, that, after Mee had
killed thirteen and mouthed eight, then We archdeacon
was able to collect the tithes without further opposition I
—oilmen). All this was pseud, but the peat could not
be forgotten, it was still fresh, it must be fresh, in the
memories of many, for there were those living who hod
in their own peewee and in that of their families
suffered from the arbitrary and cruel way in which
tithe. were collected, and the sons of thou who have
suffered still live, and these things must tend to keep
alive in the booms of thousends of the people a feeling
, of discontent with the Eglith Government, because it
I has io long meintoined this "alien" church, in their
midst. The supremacy of the Crown was in danger,
and would be so long as the Irish church, among other
things, wee maintaioed to create discontent emsngst
the Irish prople—(applause). Another matter relented
to was that of Protestant supremacy. The 'three.
" Protestant supremacy" and that other phrase of which
be had been speaking" the supremacy of this Crown' were
evidently looked upon by some as synonymous terms ;
but let them regard Protestant supremacy as
distinct from that of the Crown, and it conveyed the
idea that at presuit Prot...tenni= is upheld by the
State as the religion of the United Kingdom. Now the
instrument by which Protestantism I/upheld in Ireland
by the State is the Itise church. Let them look at this
Protestant supremacy as thus thrust in the face of the
Irish Roman Catholic". It was founded of course on
j several netted, en* being that that the State should
J hoof some religion. "All States," he thotreht POMO
j smother at the county meeting told them" had had
j some religion;" and, became. all States in the days that
I are put -heathen states in partieular he thought wr re
referred to—had had some religion, so all states lor the
future must have souse religion—(laughtcq. lie need
not stop to refute the falsity of such a notion as that.
Another notion underlay the idea of Protestant supre.
• macy, via, that the State is capable of °hefting the
true religion. In England it had chosen the Episcopal
form of religion—that stood out before the country an
the true form of religion, the State being the judge on
the matter. Ha would ask them, how is it that the
episcopal form of religion is not recognised as the estab-
lished form of religion in Scotland ?—(applettio. But
if it were replied, that episcopacy was not established
In Scotland because it was found not to be the best
j religion possible for that country, they might surely be
I aliowea to say that posailily episcopacy was not the best
J Stete religion for Irelaud—(cheen). But if their
opponents should take another argument and say
episcopacy yam adopted in England because it is the
religion of the majority, and Presbyterianism in Snot'
j land, bermese that is the religion of the majority in that
country, this he replied, to be oonsistent and just,
the State must establish Roman Catholicism in Ireland
because Popery is the religion of the majority there—
(cheers). But then it was said, " Ah, but the State
must be Protestant in some form or other, Episcopal or
Presbyterian ; we must be Protestant in this country ;
and the State, being the defender of Pro.
=teatime, is obliged to uphold that religion
I in Ireland." In other words is compelled to treat
• Ireland aa a conquered country. Protestantism, there-
fore, stands before the people as the official badge of
Idiot, and, to some extent, of inferiority— (epplanse).
Mr. John Bright said, "Each clergyman in Ireland is
j symbolical of the supremacy of the few, and the
j subjection of the many,. and that he maintained was the
I cue. Planting there the church end maintaining it,
j even at the point of the sword, made the people feel
1 their inferiority. They knew something of this. As
dissenters they had been fined and imprisoned, and
, they did Out forget the pest; be might say, further,
! they would not forget it. It was written on the page
1 of history that dissenters had been fined, and imprisoned,
and persecuted in England. They were weathered now
in these days, though imprisonment and persecution had
paned, to be treated with the utmost contempt in many
quarten—they were low vulgar diseentere—Baughter
and aPolweel—meetingers— (sheers). They hal been,
and still were to some extent, because they were the
low vulgar dissenters, excluded from the grammar
schools and universities of the oountry—(cheen). But
a change was coming over the asp= of the country, and
they were regaining their proper position. Yet at
present they were looked on in this inferior light.
What me. 4 the tealieg he amongst the Irish
Eramen catholies, using they were treated very much
in the way they (the dissenters) were treated? They
were treated as an inferior people. Of =use
they were told that the Irish Roman Catholies have
perfect civil and religious liberty. Well, he rejoiced in
that; but, with the Protestant dumb establiehed in
their midst they were treated as an inferior people and
, that naturally gave rho to discontent, which strengthened
their feeling of the Injustice they experience. If some-
times downier. in England, because of the treatment
to which they had been subjected, had manifested some
deme. of bigotry, meantimes a toed deal of fanaticism in
thew endeavours to uphold end perpetuate their opinions
it could hardly he wondered at if sometimes dissent
becamC an articled religion with them, believed &tweet
as pan of their religioe ; and they could not wonder if
Rene= Cetholiaism should have become under the
present state of things In Ireland not only the religion
ofthe people, foe it bad knee that for years after yealle
but also an article of belief to whiett they attached the
very bighted inseortanee—icbeerst They could not
weeder tbd Irelseed had become the moot thoroughly
Roma Catholic country is Europe (apogees). They
weld not wonder, to quote Mr. jeer, Bright uguju
' " /theme Ceti:mks:inn had become a patriotism." All
this- era great deal of it—l. dusts the exatenoe of the
episcopal church established is Ireland--lebeers). He
was =tieing to usenpy teadr timed greater length. He
bed referred to two ideas taken up by lIUMISISiViI spatters

and adverted to in tia reeelthigait at the remit
ra."llal4. He 1. lluded to speak on oas or two
other pointa mune give place to others.
He would sl, • . eeluda by saying that Religious
Equality yr . • ,nd she great question of the day
1-the qua • ...lathes all those other masettone
which pnbile mind. The great motto
of Count ' • „one forth through all the ocenntries
of Ito:o . ourch in sire. state"-(applause)-
I and ' back to the put history of this
Ito .Id us that each Government had been
. to prepare the way for "a free church
g It might be very lug before they
saw "a free church"-or free churthes-" in a free
Stets" in Great Britain, but they now saw the great
church establishment so intimately connected with all
the interests of the eountry, breaking up; the action of
the Governrpent for many years past had all tended in
that direction, and the church was now left without
up,aort of government, end the whole thing seemed to
be breaking up from some internal diaries-6)6oer').
The Rev. C. Wiwars, Baptist Minister of South-
ampton. said lecturer for the Liberation Society, was
received with applause. He remarked that those who
obhb:ajtec.ibtEt.iythed7inekeetlngh,adandquhietsshsuouglildcithenitolky, safelteder what
It was impossible any one should mis-
understand why they hail come together, or what it was
they proposed to themselves. He was espeeially glad
to hear Mr. Merrimaa distiuguieh al he did between
the destruction and the diseetablishment of the Irish
church. He knew their friends on the other side were
very hard to Persuade, but it was nevertheless strictly
true that so far as Ireland is concerned they could only
with well to the Protestant Episoopal church. Most of
them sere more thoroughly Protestant than churchmen
themselves, and to 'appose for a single moment that
they desired the prosperity of Roman Catholicism and
the adversity of the Protestant religion in Ireland, was
really to conceive of that which Dever ought to be en-
tertaitied by • candid mind -(epplattre). He could
assure their friends on the other side that as between
them and the Roman Catholic. they could only desire
for the church ever increasing prosperity, and that they
wonld be very glad to learn that theirs was indeed as an
"Aaron's rod," swallowing up all the Roman Catholic rods
In th e sister isle. If it came tea question as to whether Mr.
Gladstone &ad those who egreted with him, should destroy
the Irish church or those on the other side, he ws.,
afraid they would have to come to the conclusion that
those who were travelling in the direction of the destruc-
tion of the Inch church were not the advocates of Me
establishment, hot its opponenta-(hear, hest). At the
meeting the other day in Dorchester, complimentary
reference was •cade to the report of Her Majeaty'. Con,
tnisaionere, site had been inquiries Into the state of
the church in Ireland,and recommending those measures
which in their judgment were expedient. That report
did infinite credit, to the candour, the sagacity, and he
thought also the whileal wisdom of the commissioner..
At the same time he wished to notice that the only
alternative plan before the country woe this plan of
Her Majesty's Commissioners. The Cot eervatives had
made no sign-had proposed no plan. Thie only was
sure- that even they did not propose to allow things to
remain as they ire and he noticed that at the Dor-
chester meeting the other day though some said they
must not •urrender anything conceited with the Irish
chinch, several eepressed their rea lines/ to concede
much, and remedy acknowledged grievances. What
did the commissioners purpose? home years ago ten
bishoprica were destroyed in Ireland ; that was "des-
truction," at any rate, of so lustily dioceses; and the
present corutuisemosrs came forward and said that in
their judgment-at host only one differed from it -there
were still too many bishoprics in Ireland, so they
suggested that four niece of them should be ilestroyel.
If they went on at that rate, Who would destroy the
church in Ireland, Mr. Gladstone or tth Conservatives?
-(applause). If they had • measure destroying ten,
and then, as soon as there had been a little leisure for
them to mover themselves, another measure to destroy
four, and then be supposed, alter another short
interval, • measure to destroy nix or three more, it
became • mere questi in of time when there should not
be • bishop left in Irelantl-(applause). Destruction
of the episcopate did not come lion Mr. Gladstone, but
from Cie other side-from those very Commi•tioners
whom the Conservative Government appointed to
consider the question. Let them go from the bishops to
the parochial ministers, for he was anxious that all
rhould understand the nature of this alternative
propose!. In Ireland there are a great many wore
pariah,i than benefices, as they were all aware, for the
fact had became very notorious. He had been reading
Bishop Manta', very able history of the church in
Ireland. From it he learned that not lung after
the Reformation there were found so many
parishes in which there were as church congregations
and in which moreover there was not sufficient means
to maintain • alergyman in each, that it wits necessary
to unite two, sometimes three, and at otter times four,
and occasionally as many as ten parishes into • single
benefice. He had on the table a book containing a
collestion of Irish ecclesiastical statutes front which he
could read Act after Act by which several parishes had
been coutituted ono benefit*, and thus left many
destitute of a Protestant Episcopal minister. Thus
parish after pariah had been abandoned to the Roman
Catholic pries.. Now one would think this had gone
quite ter eriough. In reading the speeches made the
other day at Dorchester, be found • great deal warn
said about the maintenance of the Protestant religion
and keeping an open Bible for the people of Ireland.
Bet in reference to this nutter the Commissioners had
gone a very long way. He found in the 44th section
they recommend that where the number of Protean..
Episcopalians in a parirb does not exceed 40 that the
elorgyman should be withdrawn from nada perish, and
that the ecclesiastical revenues hitherto appropriated to
the clergyman or to the church, shall be Deafened to
some more populous parish, or rather, to s perish in
which there were more Protestant Episoopthens. He
sot able to goose from ;be e.g."... 0...4.
he had not ese official copy, the first editionlr;
...emusd to one day, bus it waa estimated that there
were 600 pariah. in Ireland with leas than 40 Pro- .
testeet Episcopalians meeting together for worship ;
and if this reenumeudation of the Commies-
toners be adopted it meant this - that from
as many as 600 parishes-and this was only an
approximate estimate-there would be withdrawn alto-
getoer the open Bible and those Protestant ministers
for the sake ..f which they were recommended to uphold
, the state church in Itehinl- (cheers). Did they not are
I clearly that if it was • question of the destruction of
the Irish church, thou who proposed to abolish
bishopric' and even take away from bemired' of
parishes the ministrations of the episcopal clergymen
were the men who proposed to el stray the Protestant
episcopal church, for he thought after all that was the
'nut rapid method of securing the object th-ir friendj
on the other side deprecated with so much earnest...
If they talked any more about the "destruction' of the
Irish church, remind them that the previeusdestruatitne
oft. bishopric. was Lor I Derby's own I,r..posal, and that
now the Commissioners recommended the "derstructame"
of lour more, amid the abandonment of parish alter parish
by the church because they contained so few l'rotestnnt
coiseopahens-(applame)-and tell them that if the
church in Ireland is continued as the state church, and
is thus to be killed by inches, bishops and clergy
following each other till the Protestant establishusen,
Is withdrawn altogether from Roman Catholic di..
tricts, and transferred to the north of Ireland an
larger towns, that was "destroying" the Irish
But what did Mr. Gladstone propose to do? No
thing as that. Ile (Mr. Gladstone) sail the ethos
that the Irish church bad the right to as menr.
as were found necessary to discharge the episcopal oe-
he did not propose to abolish any minister, whet, r
but he said, and be (the speaker) thought that beep
that which wss fru., that itlwas utterly imposaible
Protestant epiustpalians should allow their own chu
to languish for want of funds. They were told at
Dorchester meeting lest week that the Itoman Catbol
of Ireland raised £760,000 a-year in support of th• • -
church, anl the net income of the Irish church vre.
stated by the Commissioners to be sone 1:58],a0
They were reminded at the meeting last week the
eight-ninths of the property in Ireland belongs to th••
Protestant episcopal church, and they knew it was a fac.
that eightsninthe of the poverty of Ireland belong
to the Roman Catholic church ; and he asked church
inen-he asked that meeting-this plain question, ii
eightminthe of the poverty and Ireland can provide
£760,000 in support of the Roman Catholic church, did
they mean to tell him that eight-ninth. of the property
I of Ireland could not provide as much for the Protestant
chinch ?-(cheers). If that church did languish for
want of funds, be stid it deliberately, the rich landed
aristocracy of Ireland did not deserve to have a church
supported for them by the State, simply because they
were too niggardly to support it themselves- (loud and
prolonged applause). Bet he did not believe for •
single moment such would be the case-(applause). It
was • remarkable fact that for many a long year one
half of the Protestant Episcopalians of Dublin wor-
slipped in churches built by voluntary contributions,
and were mini.toreal to by clergymen supported by the
free-will offerings of their flock.-(applatie.` 1' e.
when St. Patrick's cathedral needed restructi • . di° •
State provide the funds? No. Sir Benjamin A
paid £150,000, the cost of it. restoration-(at
and his his impression was that if Protestant Epic nat.,.
were appealed to in a proper manner, they w .11) I
found as true to their church, as large-hearte,: end es
liberal, as their Roman Catholic poor neighbou I. ...et
believing this, he could not for a moment oteMs
the ueertion that the disestablishment of the •hm'ci.
-the taking away from it State patronag and
pay-and with it state control-and leaving the .
to the free will offering of its members- ...mild intrrf-e-
-with the continued existence of that chutch ;nay.
cons lotion was, that the church would go forth, if µ fr. •
church, depending upon the religious willinghoon mI
her own children, with ten-fold more power than • v- r
It bad done ytt--(lot. applause). They moat not forget
that the church then would lose the reputation to via I:
Mr. Ashton referred-the reputation attaching to it a-.
a state church. What Mr. Ashton stated wu apnea
correct, thongh the present bishops and clergy are
not responsible for it, because be (Mr. Ashto•.;
referred to • slate of things previous to 183.2,
but noons could read, as some of them bad don,
the past recothe of Ireland without being impressed that
so long as the Protestant church there remains a State
establishment it will not be reported with favour by
Roman Catholics. In the life of Coma it was stated
that on one occasion a rtate oomotheion was appointed,
and the members mumbled to sleet • secretary. There
were several applies.; every one 'ending recommend. ,
atione ; the bishops, however, would not listen to any
recornmeedations, saying they had made up their minds
as to the mune they should pursue. They were pressed
for the reason when one of the bishops, were Candid
than his brethren, explained that baying received their
mitres from the Minister of the day they could do no
other than support his nominee -(laughter and ,
applauan)-.pie which Curran wrote on a slip of ,
paper and handed it to the Lord-Lieutenant, nodding I
as he did an to the bishops, the text, "We are his I
people and the sheep of his pasture"--(load laughter).
This was the reputation the bishops had, of being "the
people" of the minister of the day : that repstation
ruined their influence with the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, and save immense power to the Rocnish
priesthood. Mr. Aebton had bold them of the records
there were of how tithes had been sollected. Iu the
days of his ignorantee he was accustomed to say the
clergy of Imbued
shepherds, but be had been obliged to alter his opinion,
because on reading history he learned that they dioi
oeculonally assemble the sheep, but it was to shear
them-(leugh.r)-end when they had got their wool,
they turned them set mamma the bogs and mountains
of Ireland till shearing time same round again—
(laughter and applanse). But all this wee peened and

▪ he vrel 0r,0,•,g of tbe state of Wass salad n
Fie.. to 3. :', ih• memory oil remained—the
5.4" °"" '•i.c rerstatiou, and he beLieved would
Man it lit dussiablislied, it Gould go forth to
the Ream ...b. lie ',rata and say, "We seek not
yours bet y. him* moo or our Divine Muter
"4. not tol.< nlii idaid auto but to minister"—
(applause). %lite, could thus appeal to the people,
if they did to the doctrines' they preached,
they wad..',., mound their admiration and
ware Asir • • 'acpistiso). He believed the
result of tar•, • ishment would be wholly in
favour at Up, Episcopal *burgh. Dr. Musing.
ham, the the other side, stated a very
ouiße.tm• I •e* lid there ought to be to-day in
the Unites - • • me 11,000,000 of Irish Roman
Catholics—or. ad emigrated and their descend'
asst.: but that, he said, there were only
6,000.030, • t,:.:.•1„000 who in the United States
b".
"• 40006( ,_ noon., Roman Catholics. Why was it
" They • ..gro, a, Protestant State church in the
United Ste, • • h...., hindrance to their conversion,
end so, wl: I , :Whelks, whose bigotry against
Protestantl, . • esid had been fed by the past of
the State c ..41, went to the United States,
sad, in • • , ••t with a free church, they
gradually 1.. .• . - . less Roman Catholic, and, e•
Dr M•ogil .1 . .• .. 1,500,000 out of eleven millions
had eatasee be adheienta to the Romish
faith—(oM. • 1 not want to send the Iri-h
to the Um . be converted—(applause)—he
thought them had gone already
icheers)— • ~ •• , 1 the men we maid keep
at home • •c re not to go over there to be
converted, • to see the United States plan
tried in .I)—perhaps it might convert
them ther .se)—and we should see Ireland
become wl
~ely all would rejoice to see it, •
thoroughl conntry—(cherrs). Yea,sald thou
who did n d with them, that is ail very well. bat
then you ,• •• of disestsblishment Cr. so unjust.
The meet, week woe one at which those who
differed I. tr• had very little to complain of;
they sup'. • pinions firmly and strongly, but
he notie . .
&beau wl met with in the advocacy of the
Irish ch • •• . inunt. Still, the impression on
their nil • , ry now and then it cropped up—
was Yu a . disestablishment will, after all,
rub and 7. . • ; you have no right to do that:
and he • • . et all, it was dioniownient they
were n • I—(langhtei ) Mr. Yeatinan said.
HI is not to he protected lo the enjoyment
of the i to—il her revenue., are to be plundertal,
why eh . . nod the Cattadt. ehorch be re.rreted,
and wl • • -nolumenta and amines...la of honor,.
bowie remain ?—(appi ova.). The Income of the
Romer d•• • amount. t,, £762 000 per annuin, and
he mad tnd the Noncont.rntista were to be pro-
tected ••.r .tnt. of their endowutente sod revenue.,
acc.rd •• • iplea of eternal imtlee the Irbil church
mug .rd In that which Justly belong.. to het"—
(cheer
1, • •i • I • - espooded heartily A men —(applanse).
The i • • f Rumen Catholic church rtferred to

by ROMIII catholic, for Roman
• • •

Calk . ~. es ; aad the revenue, of the Noneon.
form • , e , om Nonconformists for Nonconforwiat
purr c , ause). He was willing to concede
Hier •.! . , good deal of the property
of ...• .! 'i in Ireland which hat been
cord •,•. • ! • Protutant Epi•coptalian. for Pro.
test •.: t , , . ian porno,. Thou churches to which
he ,' . . . red were built by the public, and many
oft , .. by the liberality of private individuals.
Die • , at to touch one penny of that? No.
tent Epbeopalians coold prove to have
bee : . to the service of God in connection
wit , Iby their own members or specially for
the :I. said they bed.. mash right to hold,
wb v. r asehnicalities might amount to—bai as
seo 1,..: :eep, morally and substantially, as the
Re , .:- e and the Noneonformiate have the
pr. awe— (applause). He could assure them
tin . Liberal ktatesman, there was not, be,
be cry member of the Liberal party, to far
as I certain he wee, no Nonconformist, would
ev . . . eking from Protestant Episcopalians what
Pr ' .reopalisn, had given for the purposes of
tin .:urcb—iebeeni). This should be distinctly
us : they did not propose to plunder the
pr of Protestant episcopabans, but they did
to . do utmething with their own (applatne).
T .. *hutch was not only in the enjoyment of a
al of property created by Protestant Episeoulians,
f also had a good deal of national pr •perty ; and
in it would be wrong of them to nay to Protestant
opalians "You aliall no longer enjoy the property
r con children have created ;" it was ra:t wrong
' the state to any "you shall no longer enjoy property
nob belongs to the nation"—(cheera). The two
.ngs were very different, and though the speaker. at
- a meeting the other day did not make the do:unction.
... . . . . . .. . . .

r did, they would bear it in mind, and let them insist
upon it, dirt they would not plunder the ehureh of any
of her property, but only whaled to take from her that
which was not really bers—(applaure). That seemtul to
him quite fair. In connection with this subject he
wished to ri ler to what was said by one of their
members— Mr. Gerard Stunt. That gentle Man, referring
to the arguments of those opposed to the Irish establish-
ment, said

•
"Plow unfair to Truk. the Roman Catholic, milvicribe in.
religion with w Inch they In not airrer. Now I mei t that charge
with a direct denial. Imy that the Roman Catholic, in Ireland
do not pay toward. it,—(cheend. Tim rt. e WS "f the cstali/billeil
church in Ireland are •510,000 • year ; a. 140,000 of that I. paid
In tithes by Protridant imullonis. That leave. ; awl
of that I rather think C 30,000 tom to Iltysimith and the ot ha r
/L 20,000 tc the liegitim Lionom ; therrfore I think the Roman
Catholic> on timt wore have nothing vtry much to complain id
=linear, hear, mid there')."
. _ . .

Not &' penny of the Irith church revenues went
to Maynooth or to the Regium Donuin ; both were paid
out dour ontional taxes—(heir. hear). If it were the
fain that so much as £450,0110 out of £500,000 Came
ir
ripari
direstboas Protestant Spieee , beim, their pr. per
pr0p..,,, they an I beiregald al with Mr. Sturt that
there would not be much In th
of; but wile It no? How die ti !ere Vferlitlifti, r
Not as they did in England. Th. re were many clergy-
men, who, in thsir speeches fell into blunders on this
question by supposing that tithes in Ireland had precisely
the same history as in England. There was no mention
of tithes in the history of Ireland till the year 1152,
and this was rather an important point, and the more
no rent the meeting the other day the speakers insisted
very strongly that the property enjoyed by the Irish
cherish was the property of the original Irish church,
and so not the property—or very little of it—taken
sway from the Roman Catholios. Now it so happened
that until • synod held at Kells in 1152 over which a
cardinal as Irgate of the Pope presided, there was no
mention of tithes in Ireland. Tithes were never paid
tall Ireland became eonnected with the Kiiir.an Catholic
church. So that tithes are of Roman Catholic origin in
jr-lanai. !historians told them that tithes were but
little, if at all, exacted in Ireland till the time of Henry
11. That King wanted to be lord of Ireland, and asked
the Pope to make him so. The Pope said that if the
King would be the champion of the church in Ithland
ant secure the psyment of all the tithes he would make
him lord of the coaster. Henry agresd and the bargain
wan made. After Henry It had landed in behind in
1172. a synod we. held at Cashel in the following year
unirr the King when tithes were reimposed, and
exacted. sad the church was entirely Roman Catholic.
,tu, • • sirnt from those on the other side that for a

•..c • to , down to the days of Henry VIII tithes.w—er;
tv a part of Ireland. fie bed an interesting
.• by the Rev. Dr. Taylor of Liverpool, Vice-
,. N; Lof the Protestant Reformation Society, and
of ens meet popular 'men amongst the
,ntent n of that large Orange tewo, in which
440 0,1 that not more than one-tenth
T4hrs were ever possessed by Rome, although
.r,ond hy the synod of ('ohel for the whole of
ol,nivel the reign of Henry VIII., to that nine-
'Alt of . • tithe', in Ireland w, re imposed by Henry
ll* state in the person of its real executive
.• • srge upon the people, or upon the laud,
1,1 tbe considered as a state or a national
..1 .4 --(apt ease). Dr. Taylor said further that at
unt ono eubeequently Irbeit the conagosted lands
•• .' shin sins were given by the Crown to the
, .
cent •nrs of hat ir present owners, there was a reservation
• tt, tithes. The fact being that aU Ireland in the
.1 a iets years was forfeited to the Crown, and
•;', ,n4;.in..tthing grant' of the estates always said
.41 wl; rm they were used.. "You tette these

.. • . itLa te• reserve the payment e tithes," and,
• .‘• iy ,
titate's—(applanse). He wanted to bring
ti. . • • oa c,,,ension that would go sum* little way
t •eAr .4a sett..ment of the question to whom do the
cuteo belong, eel who, therefore, may be said to pay
lu ti.bes. 1' Yeatman said:

•.• rre..rus trii, small proportion of tithes paid by Roman
slimmed to fly tint the dint from which Lb.,.
illtes 11,. rained Isere origins ly granted to their pose:none
enthely by the Crown eubject to thun tithes; the
r•dat‘, itot mu granted by the C;oten had been bought by their
..or. subject to such tithes, therefore they never
rreZ.,tirt.,:•The pawnor. of the property, on that the Roman
h could not ear it uas unjust they should be called
" • ' '

'4-11-and 0., to Protestonto the tittori which ne—Tor—be:

-
to them—(apphwee)."
Yeatotan forgot, that if that was trite of the
• o CatLolic landlord, it was equally true of the
o onset landlord-(applause). If tithes did not
• to the Rnman °ethane landlords bona. the
1.6 d reserved them, then, seeing that in the ease
• • •'• Protestant landlords there was no difference,
Hd the Protestant landlords pay the tithe.—
So that those gentlemen answered one
• but he was bound to say that Mr. Yestman
• much nearer to historical truth than waa Kr.
lL had also got a psmphlet by Archdeacon
'• • i•-I —a man most churchmen would listen to
• 'esp. -t—whom many of them revered—a man of
sleep ass. learning, of high honour and strong views;
; tie gra.o r• rry to gay he wad a high churchman, but still
'to w • • man who studied a question in all its bearings
r I. 1. spoke but as the result of mature deliberation.
• so • thole ago Archdeacon Wordsworth preached a
riea of ...canons before the Univeraity of Cam-
"Aridge% on the church of Ireland, her history
411 elium, and in it he said expressly "The
tak•-•payer is not the tithe-owner." He found
simin:..r unanimity amongst authorinie that tithes are
nel, the poi.. ley of the Protestant landlords, but a
(imago Naomi by the state, and that they do bong
tbe stkts. ifs had plenty of legal evidence of the
flat, Eagle lis Ira "treatise on tithes" said they formed
no l•s• I of the original endowment of benefices, but were
assigned to the issoombents by the state. Lord Campbell
dove proeisely the same opinion, and he believed it was
1,0 generally so•'erstoad amongst lawyers, that, however
It Is,. with other parts of church property, tithes
i.e a charge iespoiod by the state ant, therefore, state
proi,rtv If theme tithes belong to the state to whom
de idolk ? That would all depend on the answer
th y gaireerase question who constitute the state. It.
was Ma of the old-fasbioned Liberals, who believed
that all the people constituted the state - (applause).
The stale was not mule up of a few great people, but of
the entire nation—the poorest man in that room was as
much • member of the English commonwealth LI Her
Majesty the Queen herself —(appiatise). If then all the
people ,ginstitateel the state, we had no difficulty In
detorteidgi who were the state in Ireland - they must
be the Irish people, one and all of them ; and,
if so, the tithe-owner being the state, the people
put in their claim for they constitute the slate—
(applause). Now the tithe-owners being the people,
what did the Roman Catholics contribute? There
were in Ireland less than 700,000 PI otestant
F.piaoopalisna, say some oneedahth of the population ;
there were 1,500,000 Roman Catholics, or about six.
eighths of the population; and the Protestant Disaenters,
including • Presbyterian arid other denomustions,
stabend won thaa 400,003, Wag pretty nearly the