The Stourbridge Observer, Cradley Heath, Halesowen & District Chronicle.
Stourbridge, West Midlands, England, 1869-03-27 00:00:00

spoke of the sentimental grievance, sareter.red to by the hon.

nieneher for Ilerts. and said the question of political ascend-
ancy was Ti ,t a real but a sentimental grievance lie objected
iii.,,t Stronely to the disendowrne,,t of the Irish Church.
•" - '

Di. endow Ult., 10. flow prolloBed, appeared to him to 11.8
peralltltd in England. Every hoe ,if the ldli was certainly
lit n artlhout an ahrloni desire tn do as Touch as was

etint,,i:itwitt with ite.:Thjeets: Fll.lllll4ll,ada, tot:2 no precedent

could be taken. The•
right non, gentleman then referred to
toe Church Property and its distribution in that
It was found that there were no means of compensat-
ing vested rights and they were consevently le-
speved In the United Slates, when the separa-
tion from Eogland took place, those Pe Tie Lit
it inc.msktent with public honour to establish
such institutions, but they d.d not interfere with the
endowments. In one place it. New York endowments
which would shortly be valued at £4oo,uve had been res-
pected, anti the endowments now remained. That was
not national property, and the key-note of this whole
debate was that the property implicated in Ireland waa
national property all issue, in his opinion, entirely at vart•
ance with the real facts of the case. He believed no 0110
fairly dealing with the question, could fairly say that the
large episc.mal revenues had nothing to do with the position
of the Church as an Establishment. The total amount of
the parochial endowments was 1395,180 175. PK, of which
£329,087 175. 10d. was derived front the tithe-rent charge,
. . . .

1i,r2,i64 12S. Id. front tithes, the rest from miscellaneous
sources in small amounts. It would to a great mutate
to instants, that the present Irish Church remained in posses-
sion of the whole amount of their rent noes. The tithe-
rent char,e had nu Red away to about one, six,h of
the estahli-hed amount. Some portions of it had been
diverted for lay objects, and the Commutation Act gave
one-fourth of the contribution to the law lords

Let them speak not ae If a small minority of the people id
Iremini recehed a poi Lion inad qua's to their wl•hes. lie
did not believe that private endowments were given to the
curds because it was an Established Church. Endowin tits
were not necessarily connected with establishment, though
there might, lie adniitted, be some, such as the episcopal
and capitular revenues, which must go with it. Supposing
these were suppressed, as well as the endowments of all
parishes of less than 200 Protestants, there still would re-
main to the Irish Church £340,000 a year of parochial
endow remits. Recalling the numerous spoliations
thiough which the Church had already gone, and the
very large share of her original property which had
passed into other hands, Sir Bounden contended
that the disproportion between the parochial re-
venues and the Protef tants of Ireland was not great, and
that probably they now enjoyed no more than their fair
share. The distinction between public and private endow•
talents he held to tie quite untenal de. Both were given
for the Wane purpose, and the gin would take effect ex-
actly in the same manlier whether the donor were a
King or a private person. The sentiment which for-
bade the appropriation of one was equally aptibcable
to the other. Reason, policy, and justice demanded
that the Government whlth proposed to take either
should show that it was just and necessary, and
Ito such cause hail yet been given. The glebe lands
of Ulster were given to the Church since the Reforma-
tion—from lands acquired by confiscation and in other ways
—exactly as lands were given to other persons whose de-
scendants enjoyed them to this day. The doctrine that these
gifts were in some way or other a species of restitutioh, he
pointed out, was fraught with dancer, asconnecting the new
with the old title, and implying that the one might he
confiscated for a fault in the other. Like Dr. Ball, Sir
/Wendell Palmer dissented altogether from the reason anal
justice of the limit of IWO for private ell,loWments,
and complained that the real vested interests—those of the
parishioners--were entirely neglected. Mr. Bright's refer-
ence to the Scotch secession, he maintained, was fallacious,
and here he paid a tribute to Mr. height's spite did oration
if Friday night, assuring him that he sympathised thoroughly
with his aims, and only differed from hun because he held his
means to lie unjust. There was tins difference, that the
Scotch Church had been accustomed to organisation
and seli.government, and that in the one case the Church
walked out, ano, in the other, was turned out of doors.
Nor was the analogy of the Roman Ca.holics a proof that
the voluntary principle would supply the want id endow-
ments, for the Protestants had Steers accustomed hitherto
entirely to gratuihies ~, i , iistrations. As to the landlords, ill-
ducemolits to accept the bill. they might rightly argue that
the tithes never had been natiolial or State property its any
sense : but that they came into existence as local charges for
religams purposes, and that they had never beers turned to
general arid imperial purposes. Mr. Gladstone had protested
at Liverpool against the tithes of one parish beteg used
for the needs ot ant titer, but to apply them to lunatic
asylums was a more voileut perveision. No reason
he contended, hail beets made out fir the forfeiture of these
local benefits. The " equality " argument, with which he
dealt hest, he characterized as most dangerous and certain,
if logically worked out, to lead tots disturbance of ecclesias-
tical property in England and Scotland. Finally, he re-
minded the Mouse that the halt Protestants had always been
a loyal people, and deserved well both of the Crown and iif
Parliament. and, admitting that the Bill mul pass, he urged
the Irish Church not to take Mr Disraeli's advice to hold
back and refuse co-wieration its its reorganization.
The So icitor-General remarked that Sir Roundel' Palmer
had brought the Court of Chancery into the House, and had
argued the question as if before a tribunal which inter-
preted the law, and not one which made it. But having
conceded disestablishment and disendowment lip to a certain
point, he had vittually given up the question. The Cherub
held its property because it was Estabb-hed, and use its
other reason. A great nation sl grievance could not be
broken up anti argued by parishes. Sir Bounden Palmer's
speech, therefore, he held to he quite impracticable, and he
passed on to offer some general observations. Ile denied
altogether that this Wtao a question of property ; it
was one of interests, and on that head the arguments were
all in favour of the Bill. The Irish Church was
universally condemned ; it was supported Kafir. ly
by alien force, arid without this force would fall. Those who
predicted that this mode of dealing with hational property
would lead to as attack oil private property, he was neil that,
by thus corifounditig the two, they were inviting the revolu-
tion they deprecated. Ihe meature, he maintained, by free-
ing the Church from Slate control turd starting her on anew
course with a respectable etidowment in hand, would add to
her vitality, stud would enable her to do something to com-
pensate for the many evils she had Modest on Ireland. It
affonled, too, a reasonable prospect of bettering the state of
Irish feeling towards England, end of laying the foundation
for a better policy towards Ireland.
Mr. Charley argued that the Irish Church had performed
all the duties for which her property was conferred on her,
and that her title to it was unimpeachable. lie denied, too,
that the verdict of the evuntry had gut e its favour iif dis-
establishment, and looked forward coutidently to a long
struggle.
Mr. Dowse, as an Irish Protestant Episconaban. supported
the Bill as putting an end to a Church which he showed in
a long hidorical retrospect to have been the fruitf ol
source of disconterit and disaffection in Ireland. Ile
delivered a •,gorous philippic against the F.stabiiihnient,
iinticipating that its almlitition wool,' give Protestaritanism
one tart chalice in Irel mil Ile combated the notion that
voluntaryism wds unsuited for l,eltttsul.
Mr. Van, inveighed against the injustice of the Bill
towards the Irish otesiants ; and Mr H. R.ehard, for the
encouragement of the friends of the measure, ha, rated what
great things the Welsh voluntaries have done withiu the last
twenty years.
Lord C. Hamilton predicted that if this attack on the
Church were successful the Ae i Uisittn could not stand
long. The two were parts sof the same compact, and ttie
proposal to destroy the Church Estalilishmerit had alwa3s
been ti eated by Wellington, Plunket, and other statesmen
as a broach of faith.
Mr. Lowe's speech, which closed the debate for the
eirellillft. Witt devoted first to an amusing criticism of Mr.
Dmraeli's argoments against the bill. Aid nest he coal-
plan ed of the toms " robbery,” •• spnliaiion," and
sa.irilege which Mr. Disraeli had employed so Ire
fu... Iy, notwithstanding the aspiratimi f mutual
forbearance with wnich he had commenced. Ihe mem.
time begged the miestion—for whether disendownient
was robbery was the questions and if they touched
anyone after the last e ection it must be the whole
British people. This being a romantic and historical sub-
ject, Mr. Lowe was surprised that Mr. Disraeli should have
treated it in so jejune a manner. All that he had said for
the Irish Church amounted to this. that It was an Establish-
nient and a corporation. An Establishment, according to
Mn. Disraeli, was valuable becau-e it euabled the State to
control the Church, and gave to the acts of the State
the sanction 4,i reliA•n. Bat the I.ish Church was
not worth control, arid the effect of her connexion
with the State had been to set threedi duller of the
people matted us. Consequently, on Mr. Disraeli's
own showing, the Establishment ought to be putt an
end to. And to Mr. Ilisraells corporation argument he
replied that the State had not posses:ion of the property,
and, therefore, could not be a trustee; and that not one
of the present corporators was despoiled. Mr. Lowe
turned next to Sir Roundell Palm, es speech, insisting
that disestablisiment without disendownient was im-
possible, and that no State could permit the existence
of a powerful and richly-endowed body entirely ir-
d.pendent of it and over which It had no control.
Disestablishmeut, in fact, involved disendowment or
re-endowment, for if the property remained it
would be on entirely different conditioes. To say
that such property must imt be deturbed if its holders had
done nothing to forfeit it, was to maintain thai endowments
were to be perpetual. But to all this part of Sir Roundell
Palmer's speech lie replied that these public corporations
were departments of the State which it win the duty of
the Government to supervise. But in fact, be had given
up his case by proposing immediately after to cut off
half the etalowm, nts. Passing on to Dr. Ball's speech,
Mr Lime maintained that it was too late to oliject to the in-
troduction of voluntaryism into Ireland, became ill practice
Ireland had been lora ago driven into the voluntary sy stein
by the appropriation of her endowments to the re igion
of a small minority. Whatever religioas life there hail been
in Ireland for some time past had been purely voluntary.
He defended the omission of the Bill to create a rew
n for the oisestablished Chrirch, and ad-
mitting that the Bill was not ..enerous —for the Co-
vernment could not pretend to be generous with other
people's money—he claimed for it that it was mst, and
carred out a great policy with injury to no one. Tie Irish
Church bail had many chances of reconciling itself with the
Irish people, lett had neglected them all. Its• 1 all had been
a matter of certainty for seam. "And now," concluded
Mr. Lowe, "it is no longer unalterable; we can alter it and
we will."
On the motion of Mr. Walpole the debate was adjourned,
and after some other business had been disposed of, the
House adjourned.

MR. SIMS REEVES AND HIS
ENGAGEMENTS.
In the case in which Mr. Hodson, the lessee of the
Cheltenham Theatre, obtained ii verdict for against
Mr. Harrison, of Clifton, agent for Mr. Sims Reeves,
damages, in respect to the non-appearance of the great
tenor at a concert at Cheltenham, the new trial
granted by the judge took place last week, before a
jury at Cheltenham.
When the new trial was granted an application wr
made that the fine of £lO imposed upon Mr. Reeves
Lir not answering to his sulivena should be re-
mitted, but the decision was heht over.
Mr. Gough, of the Oxford circuit, appeared for
the plaintiff ; and Mr. Montagu Williams, barrister,
for defendant.
The evidence given before was repeated, and Mr.
Williams made a powerful address to the jury, stating
that Mr. Reeves lusd given up London engagemi-nta
in order to appear there to vindicate his character with
the British public.
Dr. Rnmwy, called for tie defence, said that on the
evening of the concirt he found Mr. Reeves suffering
from cough, hoarseness, weakness of voice, indigestion,
nervoui.ness, debility, and general indisposition.
There was want of tone in the pulse and heart's
action, the inside of the throat was red, relaxed,
and congested.
Mr. Sims Reeves himself described tbe utterly help-
less condition in which he found himself, and the torture
he underwent in order to enable him to sing. Finally,
after using a very powerful astringent, he became so
hoarse that he could only gasp when he wished to utter
a sound. Next day he was better, but even thru iu
such a condition that he could only growl when he
attempted to sing at Worcester in the evening.
The judge remitted the tine he had imposed upon Mr.
Reeves, saving he should not have inflicted it bad he
known the real facts.
Mrs Reevi s, who travelled with her husband, con-
firmed his evidence.
he judge put it to the jury to deci
T ry de whether Mr.
Reeves WAS prevented from ringing by the visita-
tion of God, and whether, if that were so, he did all in
his power to repair the consequent damage.
The jury ci insulted a short time, and then returned
a verdict for the defendant. The costs in the first
action were divided.

Two young men, named rolpectively Probert and
Jacluon, the latter about nineteen years of ago, were
amusing theriaelves on Saturday In a small boat OD the river
Irwvii, opposite the Pomona Gardens, when It capsized, and
boll were thrown into the water Probert, being able to
swim, got ashore, but Ja. kson sank before Maistauce could
he rendered, and nearly an hour elapsed before Ids body was
recovered.