The Dorset County Express and Agricultural Gazette.
Dorchester, Dorset, England, 1858-05-04 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAY,

The Oflatromon of the EXCHEQURR moved a mo-
nition that the House would on Friday resolve itself
into a committee to consider the Aot of the 16th and
17th of Victoria, op. 96, with the view of proposing the
resolutions he had laid upon the table on the subject of
the government of India. He briefly reviewed what
hid occurred during the present session with reference
to thin subject. He then proceeded to compare the
main features and principles of the two Bills,—that of
the late and that of the present Government. One con-
sisted in the appointment of a Minister with undivided
responsibility sitting in that House. assisted by a limited
number of nominees—an under.secretary and elerice—
meaning that India ought to be governed like other ex.
tor* poseessions of the Crown. He denied that such
a scheme of Indian_
_government would work in a sails.
factory manner. The other plan which had been laid
before the House in the Awe of a Bill had been stip
instilled as oomplicated. He did not SIMI that this was
a fault in the form of administration for Indian affairs.
He mumed that the majority of the House was in
favour of a council. Then, assuming that the eounoil
should consist of the number mentioned In the Bill of
the present Government, wee the House prepared to In.
trust the nomination of these 19 councillors to tits
Crown? Tide wee a proposition which the country
would never approve. Then recourse must be had to
the elective principle. In the resolutions a oonatituoney
Was proposed anal-opus in character to the present, but
Infinitely improved, representing 09,000,000 of capital,
all invested in Indic It wax objected that it would be
impossible to (ammo mut% a constituency. He believed
so, and he thought this WAN one of the great mom•
mendatinne of the plan. PaNslng under review various
other objections to this part of the resolutions, he in-
sisted that the proposition wag a wise one; that if there
was to be a real council for India recourse tnust be had
to the elective principle ; that this was on all-important
portion of any scheme ; and that other questions—such
as patronage and finance—were subordinate And, com-
paratively, matters of detail.
Lord PALMERSTON observed that any one who entered
the House during Mr, Disraeli's speebli without beMg
aware of the question before it would have concluded
that he was moving the second reeding of the India Hill
No. 2. That meesure' upon which he had pronounced
so unbounded • funeral panegyric had been murdered by
himself. If he thought co well of the merits of the Hill
why did he kill it? He contended that the argument
in favour of the elective principle was founded upon a
fallacious analogy. It appeared to him that 18 was an
Inconvenient number for the council. Its functions were
not to decide, but merely to Advise in the department
for the management of Indian affairs.
Mr. GLADSTONE did not think that, after the decision
of the House in February in favour of terminating the
existing form of government for India. the best mode of
proceeding was by resolutions, which had the effect of
snaking a new commencement of the work. Looking at
the state of public affairs and of public opinion upon
this subject, he respectfully protested against affirming
the motion before the House. In neither plan, however,
could lie see any elements of a good scheme, and there
was great difficulty in attempting to govern by one
people another people separated not only by distance,
but by blood And by institutions. The Court of Direc-
tors had been practically A body protective of the people
of India, and there ought not to be a less efficient pro-
vision for that object. He looked in vain, however, he
said, in either plan for any protective power that could
be compared with the Court of Directors. There had
grown up, he obaerved, a system fraught with danger to
the Parliament and to the liberties of the people of Eng-
land, as well As to India, by the undue and unconstitu-
tional exercise of power by the Executive here through
the treasury and army of India, by which wars were
oommenced without the knowledge or consent of Parlia-
ment, and an accumulation of debt was cast upon India.
There was no limitation on this power, or worse than
none, in either plan, and he therefore remonstrated
against the motion.
Mr. GREGORY moved, aa an amendment, "That at
this moment it was not expedient to pass any resolutions
for the future government of India., '
This amendment was seconded by Mr. W. EWART.
Lord J. RUSSELL submitted that notice should have
been given of an amendment which would reverse e.
previous decision of the House, and which ought to be
fully debated. He should be very sorry he said, if the
House did reverse its decision, and lie did not see why it
should not prooeed to consider the resolutions proposed
by the Government, and come to some conclusion. In
his opinion, the bast mode of constituting a council
was, with certain restrictions and qualifications, to
make the Crown responsible for the nominstion of the
members.

Sir G. GREY said, in the present position of the ones.
tion, the Government Bill being withdrawn, he must
vote for the motion, although he differed from the
scheme proposed in the resolutions. The amendment
appeared to negative any legislation upon the subject at
all this session.

.....
Mr. GREGORY admitted that this vu the object of his
amendment.

Mr. WALPOLE said he had supported the amendment
moved by Mr. Baring when Lord Palmerston obtained
leave to introduce his Bill ; but the House having
thereby affirmed by a large majority that it was expe•
dient to legislate fur the government of India, it would,
by adopting Mr. Gregory's motion, affirm a resolution in
April diametrically opposed to one in February. This
should not be done without due notice.

Mr. Itloxes•tr remarked that the 110 ala had by a
large majority decided that there should be a transfer of
the government of India to the Crown, and it might on
Friday come to a resolution that the transfer should
take plane, but that further inquiry was expedient, and
that • committee should be appointed to consider the
best mode of carrying that resolution into effect.
After further debate, the amendment was withdrawn,
and the original resolution was agreed to.
The report* of the Committees of Supply and of Waya
and Means were brought up and agreed to.
On the order for going into a Committee of Surlily,
Mr. hiONSELL moved an address praying Her Majesty
that no alteration may be made in the existing arrange.
meets which regulate the admission to oadetshlps in the
Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers,
Oeneral PEEL, premising that he had made no alter-
ation in the system, and that the principle of competitive
examination would oontinne, explained the Mate of the
asse, dissuading the House from adopting the motion,
although he suggested an inquiry, as to the best method
of educating the scientific, branches of the army.
Mr. S. Hunts's observing that, although the minim.-
Mon systein was gone, that of competition had been put
beak, explained the prinoiples which ha had laid down
upon the subject of examinations, deprecating any fur.
timer inquiry as superfluous.
Mr. AMUCK said the motion, in lie present form,
would prevent any improvement, and that the House
ought to know what the actual stab of things was.
Mr. Moment, having made • verbal alteration in his
motion, to meet Mr. Roebuck's objection, the Hones di-
vided, when the motion of Mr. Monsen was virtually
carried by 217 to 177.
On the order for the second reading of the Excise
MAIN Rill, .

-ET 13ii.irr pleaded for the removal of oertain local
burdens in Ireland to the Imperial Exchequer u a set-off
to this tax.

-Mr. Fo'l3nrig moved to defer the seoond reeding
for six months,

This amendment wu founded by Mr. EIMONDI.
The Bourorron-Cleatam, observed that the grounds
upon which the increase of the duty upon Irish spirits
had hitherto been resisted had been praotioally shown
to be illusory.

Objectione to the equalization of the Spirit Duties
were offered when, upon a division, the eeoond reading
W5B carried by 227 to 36.
The House adjourned at a quarter-past 1 o'clock.

TUESDAY.
Mr, M'llif.titois moved for a Select Committee to in-
quire into the expediency of further improving the ad-
ministration of juetice by increasing the number of
assizes and assize tow's* for civil and criminal business
in the several counties of England and Wales.
The motion was supported by Mr, COLLINS.
Mr. WALPOLE observed that this subject bad been
already inquired into by a Counnisaion composed of men
of the greatest knowledge and experience, and he
doubted whether a further inquiry could add any' mate-
rial information. The object in view could only be ob-
tained by a large increase in the judicial staff.
Mr. FIADFIELO and 1..0Td GODERICIf spoke in favour of
the motion.
Sir G, Omit thought the objections of Mr. Walpole
entitled to great weight.
After a further discussion, the motion was nega-
tived.
Mr. MACKINNON called attention to the report of the
Select Comiuittee of 1856, appointed to inquire into the
expecreney of establishing equitable tribunals for the
, amicable adjustment of differences between masters and
I operatives, and Moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
enable masters and workmen to form councils of con-
ciliation and of arbitration.
Mr. WALPOLE thought it reasonable that Mr. Mack-
innon should have an opportunity 64 bringing in the Bill,
especially as the law relating to arbitration had not
operated successfully.
Leave was given to introduce the Bill.
Mr. L. KING moved for leave to bring in e Bill to
extend the franchise in counties in England and Wales,
and to improve the representation of the people in re-
spect of such franchise. In the present state of the
question be preferred dealing with it by an honest and
just measure of this kind that would remove an
anomally.
Tbe motion was seconded by Mr. BYNG.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had no
objection to urge against the purpose of the Bill • he had
no objection to eetend the county franchise and to im-
prove the exercise of it, but there were considerations
which induced hiss to believe that this Bill would em-
barrass those who wished to improve the franchise. Re-
ferring to the existing disproportion in respect to repre-
sentation between the • counties and the boroughs, this
Bill, he observed, wonid increase the anornally. It ap-
peared to him that the question of the representation of
the people in that House must be considered as a whole,
and approached in a calm spirit ; and he could not
&mist that if Parliament did approach this great subject
in a mood not unworthy of it, it would not be impossible
to produce a measure that would give satisfaction to all
who desired to add to the constitutional strength of the
country. It was the intention of Her Majesty's Govern-
ment to give their consideration to the whole question
of Parliamentary' representation, and he felt it his duty
to move the previous question.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that Mr. Disraeli had at-
tempted to draw a line between the representation of
counties and boroughs which was not founded on sub-
stantial justice. He had likewise argaed that this ques-
tion ought to be taken as a whole; but, if there were
difficulties in the way of • large measure, was it not
wise to take such • proposition as the present? Mr.
Disraeli had held out a prospect of a measure of his
own' but he (Lord John) recommended the House at
once to accept this Bill, which, if not • bird in the hand,'
was preferable to that in the bush.
Mr. JOHN LOCKE observed that the question was,
whether or not the class of voters the Bila proposed to
enfranchise was • class justly entitled to the fran-
chise.

After further discussion the previous question wee
put and negatived without a &vision, and leave WM
given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. CLIFFORD called attention to the state of the law
affecting pilots in the Isle of Wight and Portsmouth dis-
tricts, and moved for returns from the Trinity-house
showing_the rate of profits accruing to such pilots.
Mr. HENLEY made no objection, and the returns were
ordered.

---
Mr. JOHN LOCKE moved for leave to bring In a Bill to
amend an Act of the sth and 6th of William IV., chap.
63, relating to weights and measures, one of the clauses
of which contained a previa° whereby, under decisions
of the Courts, the main object of the Act, that there
ihould be one uniform measure, was defeated. He pro.
posed by hi, Bill to correct this defeat, and to make it
compulsory to sell by measure tested lr weight.
After a abort diuousaion leave was yen.
Mr. PULLER moved a resolution, 'That this Houle
will to.morrow resolve itself into a oommittee to con.
alder theaexpedieney of providing for the repair of
churches and the maintenance of churchyard. by sub.
'Muting for churelprates ouch an annual resit charge
upon all hereditainents in respect of which ohurch.rateis
may now be lawfully saseleed upon the ()canisters as will
fairly represent the total annual amount now mimed by
ohurch.rato ; such rent.oharge to be a fixed and uniform
poundage on the rateable value of slush hereditament's,
and to be made a charge on the owners." He argued
that churoli.rato WU a °harp upon property—a burden
upon the owner ; although It was said to be a charge
upon the 000upior In respect of the land, the owner re-
osived an much the len rent from the land by region of
this charge, He further argued that the poor of this
country had from time immemorial inayed the right of
having the pariah church repaired at the expense of the
property of the pariah, and the owners had borne the
burden of the repairs. Calculating the value of the
property liable at the rate of £88,000,000 or 206,000,000,
a tax of Id. in the pound would yield a aum sufficient
for the purpose. of • churoh.rate.
Mr. BUXTON moved am an amendment the following
resolution' That it Is dealrable that in Nome pariahs's'
power should be given to snake an addition, to a limited
amount, to the tithe In order to maintain the fabric of
the churehms ;" and ," that in some pariah's in towns
power should bo given to the churchwardens or the
veatry to plus a rental on a certain proportion of the
sittings." These resolutions, he said, embodied the view.
of the late Government. . _

Tide Amendment was sooonded by General THOM.
SON.

Sir J. TRICLAWNY opposed Mr. Pullers motion,
which, so far from remedying the grievanue, would per.
petuate the injustice, and he did not believe it could
work. _ . .

Mr. LIVON considered that the abolition of church-
rates, though a simple was a dangerous expedient, and
thought means might be devised to exempt persons who
had eminoientious scruples.
Mir G. Lewin entirely dissented from the plan of Mr.
Puller, because lie proposed • general, new, and compul-
sory charge upon the real property of the country for
the purposes of the church, the present rate being •
parochial rate, imposed by the vestry; and he would
impose the tax in all those parishes where church-rates
had been practically abolished. He objected to Mr.
Buxton's amendment upon similar grounds; that would
also impose • new general charge upon real property,
The House, he said, must chose between a total and lin-
mediate abolition of church-rates, and a modified form
of the existing rates.
Mr. NEWDEGATE spoke in support of Mr. Puller's
motion.

Lord J. Menu, said, after hearing this discussion,
he was compelled to say that the objections of Sir G.
Lewis to Mr. Puller's plan appeared to him to be sound
ones. At the same time we could not have a national
establishment without some provision for maintaining
the fabric of the church; he could not, therefore, vote
for Sir J. Trelawny's Bill, but he was ready to consider
any fair proposal for an equivalent.
Mr. WALPOLE pressed the members of the late Govern-
ment to bring forward substantially the propositions
upon this question which they announced when in
OHM
Mr. ROEBUCK asked why Mr. Walpole did not take
up the question himself, instead of calling upon that
(the Opposition) side of the House to perform his duty
They had nothing to do with compromises, and were
determined that of church-rates there should be an
end.

After some observations by Mr. WIORAN in support of
the motion,
Mr. BUXTON withdrew his amendment, and
Mr. PULLER offered to withdraw his motion, but this
was opposed, and, upon a division, it was negatived by
317th be.
A warm discussion then arose upon the subject of a
Bill to amend the law of church-rates, of which notice
had been given by Mr. LYGON, but which was not then
pressed.
The House adjourned at 5 minutes before 1 (Moak.