1989-06-29

POINT OF ORDER


Mr. Marcel Prud'homme (Saint-Denis):: Mr. Speaker, I rise again on a point of order that is the same as a point of order I rose on some months ago. When the House adjourned for the summer, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Chairman of the Committee of the Whole said that the House now stands adjourned until September 25 at eleven o'clock. At no time did the Speaker say to the House that pursuant to an order made earlier, we would be subject to be recalled, to remind us of that. The order of the House, for your perusal, Mr. Speaker, was made on June 27, 1989. It is very clear that we are here today pursuant to that order.
In order to avoid me rising again on the same point of order, I propose, as I proposed once before, that we look into this so that in the future, when the House adjourns, some comment is made. No other comment was made. I am not going to say whether or not what we do today is legal, but I am getting close to saying that.
We were supposed to come back here September 25. Just prior to saying goodbye until September 25, we should have been reminded that there is an order of the House requiring that we may be recalled to give Royal Assent to certain Bills. That is my interpretation, but I am sure Your Honour may wish to take that under advisement. I am in Your Honour's hands. I do not need an answer today.
It troubles me because we are called here today for a full meeting. The Speaker reads the prayers for the sole purpose of waiting here to be called to go to the Senate. I
consider this to be a full meeting of the House. My proposal would be that in the future, the House suspend its activity until we are called back to give Royal Assent to certain Bills and it is understood that the House will then be adjourned without any other business taking place until September 25 or whenever the case may be.
That is the point I wanted to bring to your attention, Your Honour, so that in the future or today, you might comment, but I do not need an answer on that today, so that we can deal with that once and for all.


Mr. Gauthier:: Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not my intention to debate the matter with the Hon. Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme). He is a far more experienced Member of this House than I am. However, I think there is a distinction to be made between suspending the business of the House and adjournment, and he made that point in his comments. I think suspending the business of the House would require the Speaker's chair to be occupied almost constantly, during the time the business of the House is suspended. If the House is adjourned, that is not necessary. So this is an option we have, and I imagine the parliamentary House leaders have thought about this, and I think that of the two, namely adjournment versus suspending the business of the House, adjournment is more convenient and more realistic than asking the House to suspend its business until the Senate has finished considering its bills. It is not my intention to criticize the Hon. Member but if the Chair has any comments on the subject, I think what is at issue is the difference between adjournment and suspending the business of the House.


Mr. Jesse Flis (Parkdale-High Park):: Mr. Speaker, when the people elected me, they elected me to take my parliamentary responsibilities very seriously, which I do, and that is why I am here, to help the House of Commons give Royal Assent to Bills we debated until one o'clock in the morning. However, we are setting a very dangerous precedent here.

June 29, 1989
Point of Order-Mr. Prud'homme
There is a debate going on in this Chamber. I do not ever recall in my time a debate going on in this House without simultaneous translation. The proceedings are going on in two official languages but we are not operating in two official languages.
I am looking for my earpiece in the desk, I am looking for an earpiece in the desk next. This is the first time since I came to this Chamber that proceedings are going on without them being available in two official languages. I think we are setting a very, very dangerous precedent.
I am also very disappointed that the Government which controls the agenda, and it is up to the Government to see that there is a quorum to walk over to the other House to get Royal Assent, has so few Members present. If we on our side walked out, they would not even have a quorum to get Royal Assent.


Ms. Mary Clancy (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With reference to the point of order raised by my colleague from Parkdale-High Park while I too was astounded that the earphones were not here, I know that this had to be an oversight on the part of whoever happens to be responsible, because of course, never would anything like this take place deliberately. I would also like to say that I personally did not have a problem as the Hon. Member for Ottawa-Vanier (Mr. Gauthier) has such clear diction that the problem was non existent.


Marcel Prud'homme: Mr. Speaker, I spoke in English, as is often the case in my case, and some object to that, but I choose that language first. I would hate to ruin the beautiful atmosphere of the summer for the staff. I do notice that the translation that we do not have. I appreciate my colleague from Toronto having reminded us that he could not listen to my words of wisdom in French, and I thank him for that. I would hope that the staff would not take that as being their mistake. Of course, the translation is available. I can see the translators through the window. However, it is the mechanics that we do not have on our desks.
I would not like this point to be mixed in with the point I raised earlier. I would like to thank my hon. colleague from Ottawa-Vanier and that is why I prefer your Honour rule on my point some day or send it to the appropriate committee to look into it. I could make a long speech on the words of the Hon. Member for
Ottawa-Vanier (Mr. Gauthier), but I will not do it today, as long as I have the assurance of Your Honour that this will be looked into because Your Honour knows that it is not the first time I have raised this point.

That being said, I want to wish all Canadians the very best for Canada Day, in the other official language, since I notice that our translation problem has now been solved. Thank you.


Hon. David MacDonald (Rosedale):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak briefly on this point of order. First, it is a delight to see many of my colleagues on both sides of the House, even on the day before Canada Day.
The tradition of being called together for Royal Assent after a summer adjournment is not something new. In fact, the Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme), who started here even before I did, and several other Members, including the Member for Ottawa-Vanier (Mr. Gauthier) and the Member from Toronto, were all members of a Government which on a regular basis, after we had completed our regular business, called Members back briefly for what is really a formality on the part of the House of Commons, that is going to meet our colleagues in the Senate and to observe Royal Assent.
I think it would be a mistake to turn this into a major public debate. I know that there are other colleagues from both sides of the House who are otherwise occupied in meetings. I am sure they would be more than happy to participate in the completion of this public business by being present for Royal Assent.
However, I think that what the Member for Saint-Denis has raised is in fact not a different tradition. We are in fact observing one of the oldest traditions in Parliament with which Members on all sides are all familiar. If the language used by the Deputy Chairman of Committees in adjourning the House at an early hour on Wednesday morning was not exactly correct, I think the sense was clearly understood by Members on all sides.


Marcel Prud'homme: Mr. Speaker, I object. I do not want to debate, but I certainly object to what the Hon. Member for Rosedale (Mr. MacDonald) has just said. For Marcel Prud'homme, Member of Parliament for
June 29, 1989

Saint-Denis, Royal Assent is not just a formality, far from it.
Second, I have always claimed that for the House to sit we should be 20 Members. Mr. Speaker said the prayers so I consider that a full meeting of the House even though it is for the purpose of only one thing. For the House to sit, there should be 20 Members. There may be 20 and on the eve of Canada Day, in the British parliamentary system, I see 20. However, there are not 20.
I regret that the Hon. Member has said that Royal Assent is just a formality. According to my learning of the British parliamentary tradition, Royal Assent is not only a formality. Yes, some day we may say: "Who cares about Royal Assent?" However, if we start on this road there will eventually be Members who say: "Who cares about the Speaker's Parade?" And then eventually they will say: "Why does the Clerk dress like a Christian brother?" And then perhaps you, Mr. Speaker, should start wearing a wig.
We have tradition. I have made no secret of my great respect for tradition. If people want to change tradition, I have a long series of proposals. However, I like the traditions of the British parliamentary system and I believe we should enhance them.
I see one of my most esteemed colleagues and I am sure he will allow me to put his name on the record to show that he is here. He is the Member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Darling), my good friend. I see his nice smile and he is such a polite gentleman. He approves of what I say.
Therefore, I will give the floor back to you, Mr. Speaker. Some day we will not have to go through this kind of debate. Again, I extend to the Hon. Member for Rosedale my most sincere wishes for a happy Canada Day.


Mr. John Brewin (Victoria):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make just a brief comment. I listened with interest, as a new Member, to all of this. I just happened to be passing by. The only point I would like to make is that if we can do this after one day's rest, imagine what we will be able to do by the twenty-fifth of September.
The second point I would like to make is a slightly more serious one. A point has been made and there are
Point of Order-Mr. Prud'homme
many Members who are not here who may have some strong views on the issue raised by the Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme). I hope that you will invite other Members of the House to make submissions to you, Mr. Speaker, before you pass judgment on the important issue which the Hon. Member has put to you.


Mr. Ouellet:: Mr. Speaker, I have just been informed that visitors from Montreal who were supposed to meet the Hon. Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme) and listen to his performance in the House were denied entry to the House of Commons. I wonder why the doors of the galleries are shut and why these distinguished visitors were not allowed to admire their excellent Member of Parliament from the visitor's gallery. I think the point raised by the Hon. Member deserves to be considered, and I certainly think the public should have the right to visit the House.


Marcel Prud'homme: Your Honour, I hate to abuse your kindness. I thank very much my esteemed colleague and friend, the Member for Papineau-Saint-Michel (Mr. Ouellet). I was totally unaware of what he was going to add. The people who are visiting Ottawa did not know that I was going to speak. I did not know myself. When I heard the bell I knew it was my duty to attend in the House. The Hon. Member's comment must be taken in the atmosphere of Canada Day. I had nothing to do with his comments, although I appreciate them. It is true that the galleries are closed.


Mr. Speaker:: A veiy short point of order. The Hon. Member for Kingston and the Islands (Mr. Milliken).


Mr. Milliken:: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. [English]
The Hon. Member for Leeds-Grenville (Mr. Jordan) and the Hon. Member for Haldimand-Norfolk (Mr. Speller) have asked me to indicate their interest in this subject as well. I think that what we are witnessing here is further evidence of the contempt of Parliament on the part of the Government to which I referred in my speech the other night. I agree with what the Hon. Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme) has said. In light of what is going on outside I think it would be appropriate to

June 29, 1989
The Royal Assent
defer any further comment until after we have returned from the other place.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps I can respond briefly. I first want to remind Hon. Members of the comments of my colleague from Victoria. He said that if this spirited debate which has just taken place is any indication of what can happen after the gruelling days, weeks, and months which have preceded, it certainly gives one reason to ponder just how exciting the session may be after September 25.1 want to assure all Hon. Members that it absolutely terrifies me, let alone giving me a chance to ponder on it.

First, we have a point of order raised by the Hon. Member for Saint-Denis (Mr. Prud'homme), a very intelligent Member of this House with a great deal of experience in parliamentary procedure. In fact, perhaps he was right to raise his point of order, because if you look at the order for the adjournment of Parliament, you will notice that I used the word "ajoumement". But in English:

By unanimous consent it was ordered: "That, when the House completes, later today", that was yesterday, "-proceedings on the motion for second reading of Bill C-15" et cetera, "-it shall stand adjourned until Monday, September 25, 1989, provided that-

And in French: "Loi concemant la protection des obten-tions vegetates, elle s'ajoume jusqu'au lundi 25 septembre 1989, etant entendu que:"

"If at any time a Bill or Bills be ready for the granting of Royal Assent" et cetera, which is exactly what we are doing now.
The Hon. Member has raised a point of interest. It is not-

-the first time the Hon. Member has raised matters of this kind, and I think he is entitled to have this point looked at during the summer, and subsequently, it would
of course be appropriate for me to comment more specifically on this issue.
I want to thank the Hon. Member, especially someone with his vast experience of Parliament, for rising in his seat this afternoon and raising a point that is very important to our great parliamentary tradition and to the future of this country.
However, we have another problem and I must say I am very sorry. I realize that the earphones for listening to the simultaneous translation are not available at each Member's seat. I very much regret this oversight, but the point is well taken by the Chair.
And now, perhaps we can proceed with this afternoon's main event.


MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE
Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the House that a Message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed, without amendment, the following Bills: Bill C-2, an Act to establish the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board and to amend certain Acts in consequence thereof; Bill C-8, an Act to amend the Department of Labour Act; Bill C-ll, an Act to provide borrowing authority; Bill C-22, an Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act; Bill C-24, an Act to amend certain legislation respecting superannuation and other pensions; Bill C-27, an Act to amend the Non-smokers' Health Act; Bill C-30, an Act to amend the Judges Act; Bill C-239, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Saint-Laurent; Bill C-240, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Markham; Bill C-241, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Fredericton; Bill C-245, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Renfrew; Bill C-252, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Restigouche; and Bill C-254, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Windsor-Lake St. Clair.
Also, I have the honour to inform the House that a Message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed Bill C-35, an Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the Government of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 1990.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the House that a communication has been received as follows:
June 29, 1989

Rideau Hall Ottawa
June 29, 1989 Sir,
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Charles Gonthier, Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his capacity as Deputy Governor General, will proceed to the Senate Chamber today, the 29th day of June, 1989, at 1.30 p.m., for the purpose of giving Royal Assent to certain Bills.
Yours sincerely,
Leopold H. Amyot Secretary to the Governor General



[Stage Direction]
.420)
[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Deputy to the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the House went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the House that when the House went up to the Senate Chamber the Deputy Governor General was pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the Royal Assent to the following Bills:
Bill C-7, an Act to amend the Criminal Code (pari-mutuel betting)-Chapter No. 2.
The Royal Assent
Bill C-2, an Act to Establish the Canadian Uansportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board and to amend certain Acts in consequence thereof-Chapter No. 3.
Bill C-ll, an Act to Provide Borrowing Authority-Chapter No. 4.
Bill C-8, an Act to amend the Department of Labour Act-Chapter No. 5.
Bill C-24, an Act to amend certain legislation respecting superannuation and other pensions-Chapter No. 6.
Bill C-27, an Act to amend the the Non-Smokers' Health Act- Chapter No. 7.
Bill C-30, an Act to amend the Judges Act-Chapter No. 8.
Bill C-22, an Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act-Chapter No. 9.
Bill C-239, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Saint-Laurent-Chapter No. 10.
Bill C-240, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Markham-Chapter No. 11.
Bill C-241, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Fredericton -Chapter No. 12.
Bill C-245, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Renfrew-Chapter No. 13.
Bill C-252, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Restigouche-Chapter No. 14.
Bill C-254, an Act to change the name of the electoral district of Windsor-Lake St. Clair-Chapter No. 15.
Bill C-35, an Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the Government of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 1990-Chapter No. 16.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to Order made TUesday, June 27, 1989, this House stands further adjourned until Monday, September 25, 1989 at 11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).


[Stage Direction]
The House adjourned at 2.33 p.m.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, September 25,1989