1976-01-28

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Mr. Jack Marshall (Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to move a motion under Standing Order 43 on a matter of urgent and pressing necessity. Recurrence of the foreign dragger epidemic on the west coast of Newfoundland, presently in a widespread fashion, prompts the need for immediate action by Canada. I therefore move, seconded by the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. McGrath):
That this House orders that the government issue warnings to those nations frequenting our coast of Canada's intolerance toward the persistence of those nations in fishing within our 12 mile limit, destroying gear and depleting fish resources.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion pursuant to Standing Order 43 cannot be presented without the unanimous consent of the House.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, this motion is one of urgent and pressing necessity which brings it under the provisions of Standing Order 43. I move, seconded by the hon. member for Rimouski (Mr. Allard):
That this House calls on the government, at its cabinet meeting tomorrow morning, to consider the unanimous recommendation of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs regarding pensions for Canadian veterans who were prisoners of war, and to report to the House tomorrow afternoon when the proposed legislation will be introduced.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to Standing Order 43, the motion cannot be debated without the unanimous consent of the House.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


AGRICULTURE
Mr. Eudore Allard (Rimouski):: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 43, I request unanimous consent of the House to present an important and urgent motion.
In view of the large scale protest from the Quebec dairy cooperatives against the federal government's decisions affecting the dairy industry and considering that they will probably reduce the milk producers' income for this year, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Champlain (Mr. Matte):
That the House take whatever measures are necessary to correct immediately a situation which may discourage milk producers and avoid that this industry be beset with the same serious problems it has known over the last few years.


Mr. Speaker:: The House has heard the motion of the hon. member. Pursuant to Standing Order 43, the motion cannot be put without unanimous consent of the House. Is there unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Yes.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: As there is not unanimous consent, the
motion cannot be put.


SUGGESTED REPRIMAND OF MINISTER FOR NEGATIVE
Mr. Gordon Towers (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Whelan) to the Dairy Council of Canada that dairy producers must cut back in production drastically or suffer the consequences, and with reference to his answers to questions in the House of Commons, and in view of the sale outlets available, through negotiation, for exportation of thousands of pounds of Canada's surplus dairy products, particularly skim milk powder, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Wise):
That this House severely reprimand the Minister of Agriculture for his negative attitude and approach to this extreme problem.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to Standing Order 43, the motion cannot be presented without the unanimous consent of the House.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.

January 28, 1976
Oral Questions



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Mr. Allan Lawrence (Northumberland-Durham):: Mr. Speaker, I must say to you at the outset that I resent the fact that the Minister of National Defence, who I know is in this building, is not in his seat because I gave him notice that I would be asking a question of him. My question could be addressed to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources but he is not here. I will have to put it to the Acting Prime Minister. As I say, notice of this was given to the Minister of National Defence. Considering the degree of attention which, over the past 18 months, has been focused on the dangers arising from the disposal of radioactive wastes, can the Acting Prime Minister advise the House whether the Department of National Defence has any information regarding radiation levels in the Port Hope area specifically? I am referring particularly to reports that studies were conducted by armed forces personnel in 1951 and 1953 about this matter.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am hopeful that the Minister of National Defence will be here and that you will permit him to take notice of this question and answer it if he does arrive. Otherwise, I will have to take notice and answer tomorrow.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Edward Broadbent (Oshawa-Whitby):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance arising from the decision of the Anti-Inflation Board on the agreement between Irving Pulp and Paper and its employees. Since this company has continued to pay its employees a 23.8 per cent increase instead of the 14 per cent recommended by the Board upon the legal ground that the ruling by the Board has not been considered by the appeal body, I should like to ask the minister when the government intends to establish the appeal tribunal for which provision is made in the legislation.


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of Finance):: We intend to establish such a body within a short period of time. I would point out to the hon. member that the appeal is from an order of the Administrator rather than from a decision of the Anti-Inflation Board. I would expect that within a short period the Board will be announcing its conclusions with respect to the actions of Irving, particularly whether or not a reference will be made to the Administrator for further action.


ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAM-REASON FOR DELAY IN REFERRING BOARD RULING IN IRVING CASE TO ADMINISTRATOR
John Edward Broadbent: My understanding is that the Board has in fact made a decision on this matter and has notified the company accordingly. I should like to ask the minister why this ruling by the Board has not yet been referred to the Administrator.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: That, of course, is a matter for decision by the Board which has been given these responsibilities under the law. The Board will have to exercise its judgment as to the manner in which it proceeds in referring the matter to the Administrator.


John Edward Broadbent: A final supplementary on the whole question of the appeal procedure. Since an appeal to the appeal tribunal, when established, can be made only after the issue has been dealt with by the Administrator, and since the only reason the AIB or cabinet would refer a case to the Administrator in the first place is in the unlikely event of a company choosing to pay its employees more than the AIB recommends, as, for instance, in the Irving case, would the minister not agree that from the point of view of employees in Canada the appeal procedure set up by the government under the legislation is really a sham?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. gentleman is advancing a new argument, one which he did not raise in the course of the debate, but I would say it is not correct. The Board will, of course, have to reach a conclusion as to how it will proceed whenever it comes to its attention that one of its judgments is being violated. Once it does act by referring a matter to the Administrator the Administrator's order may be appealed in accordance with the law.


Mr. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Oh!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Well, there is an appeal procedure laid down. If the hon. gentleman would read the bill-if he had read it when it was before the House-he might be better informed.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On a
point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman referred to me and suggested I read the bill. I might ask him how one can appeal to an appeal tribunal which the government has not set up.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
Allan Frederick Lawrence: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence, as hon. members know. May I point out to him that on the basis of the 24-hour clock he is a quarter of an hour behind? Referring to reports that studies of radiation
January 28, 1976

levels were conducted by armed forces personnel in 1951 and 1953, and considering the degree of attention that has been focussed over the past 18 months in the public sphere as well as in this House on the dangers arising from the disposal of radioactive wastes, can the minister advise the House whether his department has any information regarding radiation levels in the Port Hope area?


Hon. James Richardson (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, it is correct that back in 1951 and 1953 the armed forces carried out a survey of radiation levels in the Port Hope area, but these were done at that time to test military equipment, not at the request of Port Hope or Eldorado officials.


Allan Frederick Lawrence: Mr. Speaker, that is not an answer to any question that I asked the minister. I will repeat my question, if I may, or rephrase it for the minister. I am saying that over the last 18 months there has been a lot of publicity about this danger. Obviously, information has been in the hands of the minister or his department, so why do we not have that information, and what is that information today?


James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, as far as the armed forces are concerned they have not been involved in the radiation question in Port Hope in recent years. The article which started this discussion, and which appeared in the newspaper this morning, referred to these exercises in 1951 and 1953, but they are not related to the current situation at all. As I have said, they were related to our training and testing of equipment. A report was made at the time which referred to military equipment, not to the danger or the hazard in that area.


Allan Frederick Lawrence: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Again I have to be specific with the minister. Is this information classified, and if it is, why is it classified and why cannot we have it? What were the readings of the radiation levels?


James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased to look at the report. I have not seen it but I will look at it, and the parts that are not classified can certainly be released to the public.


Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. While the minister is doing that, would he also launch an inquiry into this mad, packrat, lunatic obsession with secrecy and advise the House under what conditions documents are classified and who has the right to classify them, unless that particular information is in turn classified?


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Real Caouette (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question of the Minister of Finance.
Last night, during the national news on television, a substantial increase in the price of gasoline was said to be
Oral Questions
forthcoming within a few weeks. They even talked about $1 or $1.25 a gallon. Is the minister aware of this forthcoming increase and can he tell us whether it will affect Canada from coast to coast, with the assent of the federal government? Will the price be uniform across Canada after this increase? Also, will the anti-inflation controls allow that increase in the price of a gallon of gasoline?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, if I have understood the announcement clearly, the $1 a gallon price was only a prediction, a possible price during 1976, perhaps after the month of July. Naturally, discussions will be held previously with the provincial governments about the appropriate level of the oil price in Canada. At the moment, I do not think there will be an increase anywhere in Canada.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, considering that gas is far from being a food item, but that it is almost as important because the whole population needs it, is the minister fully aware of gas prices, when more than 40$ in various taxes are included in the price of one gallon of gas, that 19<p go to the federal government, 19$ to the provincial government-in Quebec at least-and that in some provinces I think this amounts to 20$; in order to protect the consumer, does the minister proposes to urge the government to reduce the federal tax and ask the provinces to do likewise so that consumers be protected against any increase in gas prices?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is referring to the debate of last June, he will remember that we proposed higher gas taxes to protect other petroleum products, particularly heating oil in Quebec. I do not now expect lower federal taxes on gasoline. I would be very surprised if the provincial levy were to be reduced.


ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Elmer M. MacKay (Central Nova):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Solicitor General. It concerns the status of Mitchell Bronfman of Montreal and is asked with the consent of Mr. Bronfman and, I believe, his counsel. Is the Solicitor General prepared to suggest that Mr. Bronfman has violated any federal law, and has he taken any steps to ascertain whether the information on Mr. Bronfman is out of date or inaccurate since it was first compiled?


Hon. Warren Allmand (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge Mr. Bronfman has done nothing illegal. I would have to consult with the RCMP in respect of the matter in which he was questioned as a witness to find if anything is new.

January 28, 1976
Oral Questions


Elmer MacIntosh MacKay: Mr. Speaker, has the Solicitor General been fully apprised by the RCMP about circumstances under which Mr. Bronfman was persuaded, at least apparently so to this point, not to institute legal proceedings against certain RCMP personnel for defamation of character or other related grievances resulting from information transmitted by RCMP officers to American intelligence officers?


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry I did not hear the beginning of the supplementary question because my listening device broke.


Elmer MacIntosh MacKay: May I repeat the question, Mr. Speaker. Has the Solicitor General been fully acquainted or apprised by the RCMP about circumstances under which Mr. Bronfman was persuaded, at least apparently so to this point, not to institute legal proceedings against certain RCMP personnel for defamation of character or other related grievances resulting from information transmitted by RCMP officers to American intelligence officers?


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall being briefed about that point, although I was briefed by the RCMP on other matters relating to Mr. Bronfman.


ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Mr. Dan McKenzie (Winnipeg South Centre):: Mr. Speaker, as the CAE Industries Limited and CAE Aircraft Limited of Montreal and Winnipeg have filed a statement of claim in the Federal Court of Canada, the trial division, against the federal government for breach of a contract in not providing 700,000 man hours of direct labour per annum to the CAE Aircraft plant in Winnipeg, as committed by the MOT in 1969, will the minister now inform the House whether the government has filed in the registry of the Federal Court of Canada in Ottawa a defence to this statement of claim?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I have not been advised on this lawsuit but I will, of course, inquire into it to determine whether we have filed a defence.


BREACH OF CONTRACT ACTION BY CAE INDUSTRIES- INQUIRY WHETHER GOVERNMENT WILL SETTLE OR COMPLY WITH CONTRACT
A. Daniel McKenzie: Mr. Speaker, I would direct my supplementary question to the Minister of Transport. Will he inform the House whether his department or the Department of Supply and Services is making any effort to find the 700,000 man hours of work for the CAE in Winnipeg, or will this matter just be settled in the courts?


Hon. Otto E. Lang (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I would want to check into the present status of that issue before responding to the hon. member.


TRANSPORT
Mr. Steven E. Paproski (Edmonton Centre):: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Transport advise the House what his departmental plans are for maintenance dredging contracts for the coming year, and when can we expect a report to the House on how he plans to process new dredging bids?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the question of how to solve some of our problems in respect of dredging is under serious consideration at the present time. I would expect to be able to make some proposals to my colleagues before very long, and then be able to announce a decision. At a time when we are still considering various alternatives, and have to decide between them, I would hesitate to predict when an announcement may be made.


Steve Eugene Paproski: Does the minister have any bids on his table now to process?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, we are not at the present time actively calling bids until we have solved some of the questions we have asked about the bidding procedures.


SALE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR TO SOUTH KOREA-DATE OF COMPLETION OF AGREEMENT
Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. It might have been more appropriately directed to the Secretary of State for External Affairs but he was last seen on a camel disappearing into the desert somewhere.


An hon. Member:: He is on the road to Damascus.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I should like to ask the minister whether the Government of Canada and the Government of Korea have completed negotiation of an agreement to sell a nuclear power generator to that country.


Hon. Alastair Gillespie (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I have been informed that a safeguards agreement has been concluded between the two governments. I expect the Secretary of State for External Affairs to make a statement when he returns to the House and table the document in the House.


SALE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR TO ARGENTINA-POSSIBILITY OF REOPENING AGREEMENT
Robert Lorne Stanfield: have a supplementary on the same subject, Mr. Speaker. Have the minister or a representative of the Government of Canada been able to persuade the Government of Argentina to reopen the contract between Canada and Argentina not with regard to safeguards but with regard to

the price? Has there been a firm agreement to reopen it or is the Government of Canada still trying to persuade Argentina to reopen it?


Alastair William Gillespie: Mr. Speaker, I can report progress on this important matter. The Chairman of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and the President and other members of Canadian government agencies are in Argentina at the present time sitting down with their opposite numbers at CNEA for the purpose of renegotiating the commercial terms of that agreement.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, can the minister say that the Government of Argentina has agreed to reopen it or is it just that they have agreed to meet Canadian representatives over a cup of tea or something of that sort?


Alastair William Gillespie: No, Mr. Speaker. They have given a clear indication that they are prepared to sit down and renegotiate the terms of that agreement.


ANTI-INFLATION BOARD JURISDICTION TO DEAL WITH PROVINCIAL CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. F. Oberle (Prince George-Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance. It is a follow-up to a question I asked the President of the Privy Council a couple of days ago about which he wanted some legal interpretation. It deals with the Anti-Inflation Board's jurisdiction over provincial Crown corporations. Would the minister be in a position today to advise the House whether the Anti-Inflation Board would have jurisdiction over provincial Crown corporations, particularly corporations such as ICBC, which corporation has increased its rate by 150 per cent?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, at this point, before the government has entered into an agreement with the government of British Columbia, I am advised there would be no jurisdiction under the law against a provincial Crown corporation. As the hon. member will have noticed from the Ontario agreement, that government, and indeed other provincial governments, have taken the position that certain of these Crown corporations should be exempt from the provisions and should be subject to the direct responsibility of the provincial government itself. In effect, the ICBC in respect of its rate increase will have to be governed by the manner in which British Columbia accedes to the anti-inflation law.


Frank Oberle: It seems to me that it does not specifically deal with provincial Crown corporations. Can the minister spell out whether his department has received an invitation from the province of British Columbia to deal with the matter of ICBC in isolation until such time as another agreement is discussed?
Oral Questions


Donald Stovel Macdonald: To repeat the comment to the hon. gentleman, a provincial Crown agency is not covered under the provisions of the law which apply to private corporations, therefore there has been no request from British Columbia that we deal with it separately, apart from the whole issue.


RATE INCREASES BY NORTHERN CANADA POWER COMMISSION-REQUEST FOR INVESTIGATION BY BOARD
Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Finance. Notwithstanding the apparent absence of agreement between the federal government and the government of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories in this respect, and in view of Northern Canada Power Commission's increase in rates in the Northwest Territories recently last December of 22 per cent in the Yukon and over 40 per cent by April, will the minister see to it that the proposed increases of Northern Canada Power Commission are placed before the AntiInflation Review Board?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I am
confident that the board will have already focused on this, but as a result of the question I will make doubly sure that they pay attention to it.


BOARD'S INTENTIONS WITH REGARD TO INDIVIDUAL COMPLAINTS OF PRICE INCREASES
Mr. John Rodriguez (Nickel Belt):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Over the last couple of months I have relayed over 100 complaints about price increases from my constituents to the Anti-Inflation Board. I now have further complaints in my possession concerning increased prices in food, transportation, bank services and diapers. In view of the fact that over the last three weeks further increases have been taking place, such as the increase by Shoppers' Drug Mart in my riding in the cost of Baby Scott regular diapers-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. If the hon. member has a question, will he put it.


John R. Rodriguez: My question to the minister is: Does the Anti-Inflation Board intend to take any steps to deal with individual complaints, specifically those to which I have been referring, and, if so, when can we expect to see some evidence of this?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: As I
have indicated, the board, of course, will have to determine the best way to carry out its mandate. Information of the kind the hon. gentleman has brought to the board's attention cannot help but be helpful to it in carrying out its mandate, and I hope he will continue referring these matters. Obviously, some of the increases at least will be by firms which are not subject to legal sanctions, but there may indeed be other patterns on which the board will be arriving at early conclusions.
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January 28, 1976
Oral Questions


John R. Rodriguez: In view of the fact that the anti-inflation program has been absolutely useless in controlling price increases and indeed that the board chairman, Mr. Pepin, has said that consumers may not see any moderation in price increases for a full year, is the government now prepared to amend its anti-inflation program to include selective price increases?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No, Sir.


TRANSPORT
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Now that the minister has had a chance over several months to review the situation in the Department of Transport, will he be making an over-all statement on government policy concerning all phases of transport or will he be making piecemeal statements from time to time concerning the various aspects of transport? I am particularly concerned about whether he will be making any announcement in the future concerning the Seaway tolls?


Otto Emil Lang: I anticipate making specific statements in relation to particular areas rather than waiting until all decisions have been reached and a broader statement can be made. Of course, broader statements will be appropriate at the time, for instance, of the introduction of major changes in the National Transportation Act, but I can assure the hon. member that I would not want to see us waste time which could be used on improving the system until such time as a broader statement can be put before the House and debated here.


Stanley James Korchinski: The minister did not make any reference to the question I raised with regard to Seaway tolls. If he intends to make any statement with regard to that matter, will he hear representations prior to making any announcement in that regard?


Otto Emil Lang: I have been hearing representations on that subject for quite a long time and will continue to receive them. A decision may well be taken on that subject after further deliberation by the government, but of course an announcement in that regard will be made after the decision is taken.


INQUIRY AS TO CONSULTATION PRIOR TO REDUCTION IN RAIL PASSENGER SERVICE-POSSIBILITY OF OPPORTUNITY FOR DEBATE
Mr. Douglas Roche (Edmonton-Strathcona):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. In view of the statement he will make tomorrow concerning the cut-back in rail service in Canada, did the minister consult the city administration in Edmonton, the CNR management or the labour unions in that city to determine, before the policy is announced, the serious adverse effect such a cut-back in rail service would have on Edmonton, which is a major CNR western terminal?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, I would have thought the hon. member might have checked my response to questions yesterday from which it is clear that I do not accept the word "cut-back" as an adequate description of anything I propose to talk about tomorrow because it is a very important question of improving as well as rationalizing rail service. We have had extensive consultations throughout the country, as will become apparent tomorrow. This is the first step in the process and a great deal of consultation will take place before decisions in regard to different areas are made.


Douglas Roche: I want to ask the minister if he is planning any legislation with regard to changes in rail service in Canada which would give members of parliament an opportunity to debate how a proposed or anticipated cut in rail service could be reconciled with Liberal compaign promises in 1974 to increase rail transportation service as a basic Canadian response to the energy crisis.


Otto Emil Lang: Again the hon. member is anticipating. He would be much better off making his comment after he sees the direction in which we propose to go. He will see indeed that we have a firm commitment to the rail service and to a better rail service in the country, not to the continuation of a lot of bad service.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Calgary North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Justice. I put the same question to him before the recess and it is in reference to the Pilkington glass case in which the Lord Chief Justice condemned as disgraceful the practice of using information from income tax forms and other confidential information which individuals and corporations are forced to file. What course has the Minister of Justice taken since I raised this question and what report has he to make to the House now?


Stanley Ronald Basford: As I indicated to the hon. member before the Christmas recess, I have instructed my officials that in any audit matters auditors from the Department of National Revenue were not to be used in order to avoid any possible confusion on the part of the taxpayers or persons being audited. That instruction has been carried out. In addition, some action is being taken against the Crown as a result of that action and because of the very peculiar nature of the lawsuit, I have, on behalf of the Attorney General of Canada, retained the services of J. J. Robinette, Q.C. in Toronto.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I take it that the Minister of Justice has given some instructions regarding a course of action against those who use such information either directly or indirectly in contravention of the law of Canada. Is it his instruction that necessary legal steps be taken to bring these people to task?
January 28, 1976


Stanley Ronald Basford: Of course, it has always been the law that income tax information was not to be used by anyone for any purposes other than the administration of the Income Tax Act. That has been the instruction and it continues to be so. What I was indicating was that we have instructed that any inquiry or investigation by auditors from the Department of National Revenue not be used for other purposes than auditing under the Income Tax Act to avoid any possible confusion by people that the information was being obtained under the provisions of the Income Tax Act or some other statute.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: The minister has now admitted that this is a wrong practice on the part of whoever is using this information, whether they be government auditors, government officials or whether the information is obtained through leaks from the Department of National Revenue to other people and other departments. What recourse is there in law against people breaking the law in Canada when they hide behind the Attorney General of Canada?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has read far too much into my answer. There is no indication-and I want to make this very clear-of any wrongdoing by public servants in this matter at all. I have taken some steps to ensure in the future that there is no confusion among taxpayers or those being audited as to the legislation under which they are being audited.


PUBLIC BUILDINGS
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton-The Sydneys):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Public Works. In light of the very seriously high unemployment rate on Cape Breton Island, would the minister use his good office in conjunction with the other departments concerned to expedite the commencement of the new federal fisheries building now planned and the major renovations to the present federal building, both of which have been on the drawing boards for a long time? In this way we might at least get some short term employment.


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to consider again our priority list.


ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Justice.
Can the minister give the House the reasons that led him to request a new trial for Dr. Morgentaler? Does the minister not fear that by so doing he is creating a precedent in Canada in that he is allowing his department to act as a substitute for our courts of law?
Oral Questions


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, the reasons upon which I acted are set out in the statement I made last Thursday, and I will be happy to supply the hon. member with a copy if he wishes or table one in the House. Briefly paraphrasing, they are a result of the decision of the court of appeal of the province of Quebec last Tuesday, which indicated that the law of necessity is a recognized defence in law, and that there was in the second trial sufficient evidence to go to a jury. On the submission of counsel for Dr. Morgentaler, I felt there was similar evidence available for the first trial and that a new trial should be ordered. Second, I felt that parliament was soon to pass-as it did yesterday-Bill C-71, which limits the right of a court of appeal on application by the Crown to either order a new trial or deny the appeal, and that the one man who had caused parliament to act in this way should receive the benefit of that provision. Those essentially were my two reasons, and they were set out in my statement of last Thursday.
In so far as the second part of the question of the hon. member is concerned, I think he is not quite correctly interpreting the law. Section 617 of the Criminal Code makes it very clear that the federal Minister of Justice has the authority and the right in special cases, upon inquiry, to order a new trial in any case which fits within the section. This is not a precedent. That is a section which has been used on a considerable number of occasions throughout the history of the criminal law.


PERFORMING ARTS
Mr. Walter Baker (Grenville-Carleton):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. Would the minister please advise what possessed him to advise his colleagues that Festival Canada, a very important national function, be cancelled? Specifically, could the minister not find $200,000 in some other aspect of his budget which would have allowed this program to continue? Would the minister undertake to prevail upon his colleagues to reconsider this decision?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


An hon. Member:: Government spending, Walter.


Hon. James Hugh Faulkner (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I cannot take that sort of representation seriously. The hon. member was one of the most outspoken of those on the other side who were insisting the government cut back expenditures. We start cutting expenditures, and now he wants them reinstated.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Walter David Baker: Would the minister advise the House what criterion is being used by the government with respect to programs of this nature? Is it a consistent rationale, aside from something cosmetic? I ask that question because of the cut with respect to Festival Canada and the cut in the program under the National
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January 28, 1976
Oral Questions
Capital Commission with respect to lighting on the canal in this city. I think the priorities of this government are just dreadful.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. With all due respect, I am sure the hon. member realizes that sort of question ought to be put to the minister when his estimates are before the standing committee.


SOCIAL SECURITY
Mr. Lincoln M. Alexander (Hamilton West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. When the minister introduced the spouses legislation, the House will recall that he had some concern about employables and unemployables, and that it was his intention to introduce legislation this year. I think it is called guaranteed annual income. In the meantime, though, we have government cutbacks in the fight against inflation. I should like to ask the minister, what is his plan now in this regard? Does he intend to proceed with this legislation or, because of government cutbacks in the fight against inflation, will this matter be held in abeyance?


Hon. Marc Lalonde (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall having told the House that legislation on the matter would be introduced this year. However, I did say, and I repeat it here, that negotiations with the provinces are continuing; I trust an agreement will be reached with them in coming months after which, if agreement is reached, appropriate legislation would be introduced; but, I doubt that it could be this year.


Lincoln MacCauley Alexander: Am I to understand from the answer to that question that notwithstanding the government's program of cutting back, in this particular instance the minister will be proceeding with this legislation this year?


Marc Lalonde: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. I said, and very clearly, that my purpose is to reach an agreement with the provinces sometime this year, but that there was no question of introducing such legislation during the current session or this year. I do hope, however, that next year, in the next financial year, it will be possible to introduce appropriate legislation.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Bob Wenman (Fraser Valley West):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement of the House leader that there are many countries in the world with whose policies we do not agree, we do not think it is in the interests of world peace, world development and the improvement of the lot of poor people throughout the world, when we have these differences, to cease commercial relations or aid. I should like to compare that statement with the statement of the Secretary of State for External Affairs of July 23, 1975, when he said:
Mr. Speaker, with reference to the nuclear explosion, following the explosion our government suspended all its aid programs with India with the exception of food and agriculture. That situation continues at the present time. The nuclear co-operation has been suspended and aid, with the exception of food and agriculture, is also under suspension.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member for New Westminster.


Robert Lloyd Wenman: Has the suspension now been lifted?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


ANTI-INFLATION BOARD INCREASE IN AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE PREMIUMS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA-POSSIBILITY OF INVESTIGATION BY BOARD
Mr. Stuart Leggatt (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance, but he has disappeared. I will direct it to the government House leader in his absence.
In view of the statement this week by Mr. Byron Straight of the ICBC of British Columbia that the rates being charged there are higher than necessary-and this man is the consulting actuary to that firm-and in view of the public intervention of the AIB in the teacher negotiations in Ontario before an agreement was entered into, would the minister advise the House if the AIB, although not being requested by the province of British Columbia, is in fact now investigating ICBC rates, which have risen by 300 per cent while people's wages have been controlled and frozen? Would the minister advise if any investigation is now taking place with regard to those rates?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the AIB is investigating at the present time. As to the position with relation to the ICBC, I thought the minister set forth the position very clearly.


Stuart Malcolm Leggatt: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question concerns the inflationary psychology which clearly results from the rate increase in British Columbia. Will the minister advise the House if it is clear that the AIB has investigated not only the higher rates but the effect which the
January 28, 1976

increase in auto rates will have on inflationary psychology in British Columbia?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the AIB is following our discussions here closely and will note the comments of the hon. member.


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
Mr. Ken Hurlburt (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. On November 7, 18 and 21, I asked the minister questions regarding the restoration of rail service to Glenwood and Hill Spring, and the minister replied in part on one occasion that the CTC had a part to play in the matter, a bridge was under repair, and that the CTC, CPR and the Minister of Transport were all looking for one another. Will the minister inform the House whether or not he plans to do anything about this serious situation?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, I will check the exact dates on which certain steps were taken in this regard and bring the hon. member up to date on the matter.


INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY
Mr. Bill Kempling (Halton-Wentworth):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. Will the minister share with this House and the people of Canada the thrust of the secret discussion he had in Toronto with a select group of business leaders from that city, which meeting we understand was arranged by the Canadian Manufacturers Association after the Prime Minister's remarks on December 28 last?


Alastair William Gillespie: Mr. Speaker, I remind the hon. member that on many occasions I, as I am sure he does, meet with my constituents and with different groups of people who are representative of many interests in the community. It was not a secret meeting, but it was a private meeting.


William James Kempling: Mr. Speaker, no matter whether the meeting was secret or private, would the minister explain why those who attended the meeting were instructed not to talk to the media about the discussions? Also, did the minister convey to them explanations not covered by the Prime Minister in his "Parable of the Candles" address to the Canadian Club?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.
Oral Questions FINANCE


EFFECT ON INFLATION OF ACQUISITION BY BANK OF CANADA OF SUBSTANTIAL PART OF NEW BOND ISSUE
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: Mr. Speaker, my question was for the Minister of Finance. As he is absent may I defer it until tomorrow, unless the Acting Prime Minister wishes to answer.
I note that the minister has returned. May I direct a question to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker? Was there consultation between officials of the Bank of Canada and the minister prior to the bank's agreeing to acquire a minimum of 275 million of the new issue of government of Canada bonds for $550 million on February 1, 1976; and, if so, would he not agree that the government and the bank are expanding the money supply in order to meet the borrowing requirements of the government, which can only further fuel the fires of inflation in this country?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, there is a measure of consultation of course between the bank officials and those of my department with regard to the issues of securities from time to time in respect of which the bank is the government of Canada's agent. Of course, very often the bank itself buys some part of the issue on its own account. The judgment of the governor at this stage, in this particular situation, is that the participation in that issue will not defeat the general objective he has of reducing the rate of the growth of the money supply.


VETERANS AFFAIRS
Jack Marshall: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. In view of the disappointment, discouragement and dismay of this country's veterans, particularly prisoners of war, at this government's lack of action in introducing legislation based on the recommendations of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, a feeling which the minister shares, can the minister say what action he will take tomorrow in cabinet, what stand he will take if he is turned down again, and if there is any hope in the near future of seeing this legislation introduced? When he answers, I ask the minister to refrain from using the phrase "The matter is under consideration and there will be an announcement in due course."


Hon. Daniel J. MacDonald (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to comply with the last part of the hon. member's request. I remind my colleague opposite that the government has been considerate and generous in heeding the many requests of veterans and the advice of CPC. There are increases of 24 per cent coming under CPC, and 17 per cent under WVA, plus other benefits. Many other items have been passed in the past year, too numerous to mention at this time. Probably, in a couple of weeks I will be able to bring a message for hon.

Oral Questions
members on the government's intentions with respect to POW compensation.


REQUEST FOR PROGRAM TO COMBAT INCREASE IN GLUE SNIFFING-GOVERNMENT POSITION
Mr.   Sean@: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare arises from the statement of the Canadian Home and School and Parent-Teacher Federation, to the effect that, as the incidence of glue sniffing and of other toxic substances seems to be on the increase among our children-meaning the children of this group-a government program to combat this practice is urgent. Is the minister in the position to reconsider his previous answer and announce a national program to combat this problem?


Marc Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, my previous reply remains
unchanged.


PENITENTIARIES
Mr. John Reynolds (Burnaby-Richmond-Delta):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General. Can the Solicitor General tell the House when he intends to table the report of the Farris inquiry into the B.C. penitentiary hostage taking?


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, the report is ready for tabling but we are waiting for the trial taking place in British Columbia to be completed. The judge asked that his report not be made public while that trial is under way.


John Douglas Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, to which trial is the minister referring? The trial of the three inmates charged with murder has been stayed. Is he talking about another trial which is now taking place?


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, excuse me, it is the trial of the three inmates who took the hostages, Messrs. Lucas, Bruce and Wilson.


TRANSPORT
Mr. Cecil Smith (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. As rail passenger travel between Winnipeg and Churchill can now be classed as a national disaster, will the minister not guarantee that passenger service on this line will be upgraded so that
[Mr. MacDonald (Cardigan).)
people who have no alternate means of transport can travel in a comfortable and secure manner?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that this important question will be under consideration in the matter to be indicated by me tomorrow.


ALLEGED DANGER IN USE OF ARTIFICIAL FOOD COLOURING RED 2-ACTION TO PROTECT CONSUMERS
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of the concern which has developed about the artificial food colouring known as Red 2, which appears to be a health hazard and is being banned in the United States, can the minister state what steps his department is taking regarding Red 2 in order to protect the health of Canadians?


Marc Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, my department has considered very seriously the U.S. government's decision on the so-called Red Dye No. 2. We are consulting the members of the European Economic Community on this matter as well as the U.S. scientific authorities. I am advised by my department that it is not deemed appropriate for the moment to take any steps in this respect, and we are not in agreement with the decision taken by the U.S. authorities in this respect.



ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Fundy-Royal: for leave to introduce Bill C-423, to codify the law of evidence.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Mr. Fairweather:: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to implement the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission in its final report on evidence. The bill is an integral reproduction of the commission's draft, and I acknowledge freely that I have used their draft in every respect but one. In that case I felt that the commission had gone too far, and I would have excluded evidence of the victim's character in sexual cases for purposes of disposition. I wanted to bring this bill before the House before the retirement of Mr. Justice Hartt, because I believe this House owes it to Mr. Justice Hartt to adopt at least one of
January 28, 1976

the 14 reports made by the commission in the form of legislation before he retires.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first time and ordered to be printed.

Mr. Serge Joyal (Maisonneuve-Rosemont) moved: for leave to introduce Bill C-424, intituled: "An Act to amend the Olympic Act (authorization)".


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Serge Joyal: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to amend section 10 of the Olympic (1976) Act, to authorize a company other than the Olympic Games to pursue the operations of the Olympic Lottery after the games have taken place in 1976.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first time and ordered to be printed.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
Mr.   J.-J. Blais@Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council: Mr. Speaker, the following questions will be answered today: 3,214, 3,283, 3,361 to 3,457 inclusive, 3,610, 3,746 3,755 and 3,806.


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Did the Prime Minister say to a journalist, as quoted on page 51 of the October 20, 1975 issue of Maclean's Magazine that "The first Cabinet leak you get, I'll have your phone tapped by the RCMP" and, if so (a) in what location (b) on what date (c) to whom?
2.	Since April 20, 1968, has the Prime Minister, or has anyone acting on his behalf, or has anyone else in government, ordered the tapping or listening by any means whatsoever to the telephone of any journalist, news agency or publication and, if so (a) on what dates (b) for what purpose (c) what are the names and addresses of all those involved?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Prime Minister's Office and the Solicitor General as follows: 1. See Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, fourth edition, citation 171(e) to the
Order Paper Questions
effect that questions oral or written, must not inquire whether statements made in a newspaper are true.
2. No.


Mr. Jones: 1.	What is the deficit of Air Canada for the (a) Maritime or Atlantic region (b) other regions of Canada for each year 1970 to date?
2.	What is the deficit of Canadian National Railways for the (a) Atlantic region (b) other regions of Canada for each year 1970 to date?
3.	What is the deficit of the Canadian Film Board for the (a) Maritime or Atlantic region (b) other regions of Canada for each year 1970 to date?
4.	What is the deficit of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the (a) Atlantic region (b) other regions of Canada for each year 1970 to date?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. The airline does not compile the requested data on a regional basis.
2.	Data is not available on the breakdown of income on a regional basis as requested.
3.	The National Film Board's estimates are voted by parliament and reviewed in committee. The National Film Board cannot spend more than the combined total of what is voted by parliament and the board's revenues. It does not, therefore, incur a deficit.
4.	The CBC's estimates are voted by parliament and reviewed in committee. CBC cannot spend more than the combined total of what is voted by parliament and the corporation's commercial revenues. It does not, therefore, incur a deficit.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Algeria (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Antigua (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Bahamas (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Bangladesh (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
(Mr. Sharp.]
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Barbados (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Belize (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Bolivia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Botswana (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Brazil (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Brunei (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.
10384

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Burma (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Burundi (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Cameroon (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?

2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Central African Republic (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Chad (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Chile (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Colombia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Congo (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Costa Rica (eO which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.
211 30- 36/4

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Cuba (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Cyprus (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Dahomey (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many

Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Dominica (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Dominican Republic (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
January 28, 1976

3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Equador (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Egypt (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
Order Paper Questions
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in El Salvador (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Fiji (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Gabon (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Gambia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Ghana (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?

2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Grenada (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Guatemala (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Guinea (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Guyana (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Haiti (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Honduras (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How much projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions CANADIAN AID TO HONG KONG


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Hong Kong (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in India (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Indonesia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many 
Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How much projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Iraq (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Ivory Coast (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
January 28, 1976

4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Jamaica (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Jordan (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are
Order Paper Questions
involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Kenya (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Khmer Republic (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Korea (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Laos (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Lebanon (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects? 
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Leeward and Windward Islands (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Lesotho (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Malagasy (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Malawi (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Malaysia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Maidive Islands (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Mali (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Malta (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Mauritania (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many 
Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Mauritius (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Montserrat (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
January 28, 1976

3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Morocco (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Namibia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
Order Paper Questions
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Nepal (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Nicaragua (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Niger (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Nigeria (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Pakistan (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?

2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Panama (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Paraguay (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Peru (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Philippines (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Rhodesia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Rwanda (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in St. Kitts (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in St. Vincent (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Samoa (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?

2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Senegal (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Sierra Leone (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Singapore (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in South Vietnam (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are
Order Paper Questions
involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Sri Lanka (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Sudan (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions CANADIAN AID TO SWAZILAND


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Swaziland (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Syria (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Tanzania (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?

2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Thailand (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Togo (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
January 28, 1976

5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Trinidad and Tobago (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Tunisia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for
Order Paper Questions
these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Turkey (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Uganda (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions CANADIAN AID TO UPPER VOLTA


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Upper Volta (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Uruguay (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Venezuela (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many

Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Yemen (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Zaire (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
January 28, 1976

4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Zambia (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
Order Paper Questions
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: See reply to Question No. 3,360 tabled this day.


Mr. Cossitt: What means of transportation was used by the Prime Minister for his trip to Western Canada on the weekend commencing November 21, 1975 (a) what aircraft was used (b) what was the cost per hour of keeping such aircraft in the air (c) how many hours of flying time were involved (d) what was the cost per hour of keeping such aircraft waiting on the ground (e) how many hours of waiting time were involved (f) what is a complete list of all flights made by the aircraft on this trip including take-off and arrival times and all places visited (g) what is a complete list of all persons on board the aircraft at any time during any of the flights?


Otto Emil Lang: (a) Transport Canada Lockheed Jetstar CF-DTF. (b) and (d) The average cost of keeping the aircraft in the air and on the ground is $970 per flight hour, (c) 10:30 hours flying time,
(e)	69:55 hours waiting time, (f) and (g) See list below.
Date	Depart	Time	Arrive	Time	PassengersNovember 20	Ottawa	1350	Winnipeg	1625	Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mr. R. Murdoch Mr. I. MacDonald Mr. Rouleau Mrs. Rouleau Mr. P. RouleauNovember 20	Winnipeg	1640	Edmonton	1830	Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mr. R. Murdoch Mr. I. MacDonald Mr. Rouleau Mrs. Rouleau Mr. P. RouleauNovember 20	Edmonton	2115	Vancouver	2240	Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mr. R. Murdoch Mr. Rouleau Mrs. Rouleau Mr. P. RouleauNovember 23	Vancouver	1240	Calgary	1350	Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mr. R. Murdoch Mr. Rouleau Mrs. Rouleau Mr. P. Rouleau Master Justin Trudeau Master Sasha TrudeauNovember 23	Calgary	1845	Ottawa	2215	Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mr. R. Murdoch Mr. Rouleau Mrs. Rouleau Mr. P. Rouleau Master Justin Trudeau Master Sasha Trudeau
Note: Itinerary and Passengers (All times are Eastern Standard Time).

January 28, 1976
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Whittaker: 1.	What were the names and addresses of all lawyers and law firms in the Constituency of Okanagan Boundary, British Columbia who performed services for the Department of the Solicitor General during 1973 and 1974?
2.	By year, what was the total amount paid to each?


William Warren Allmand: Nil.


Mr. Whittaker: 1.	What was the total amount allocated to British Columbia for the Local Initiatives Programme in 1975?
2.	What was the amount allocated to the Constituency of Okanagan Boundary and on what basis?
3.	By constituency, what was the amount allocated to the other twenty-two constituencies?


Hon. Robert K. Andras (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: 1. $18,128,000.
2.	$883,000. Refer to the 1975-76 LIP allocation formula, to be tabled in the House of Commons during this session.
3.	See below.
Allocation of Program Funds by Constituency
Constituency	Amount Allocated
Burnaby-Richmond-Delta	325,000
Burnaby-Seymour	250,000
Capilano	384,000
Coast Chilcotin	1,145,000
Comox-Alberni	1,069,000
Esquimalt-Saanich	804,000
Fraser Valley East	979,000
Fraser Valley West	363,000
Kamloops-Cariboo	1,014,000
Kootenay West	608,000
Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands	1,251,000
New Westminster	482,000
Okanagan-Kootenay	1,142,000
Prince George-Peace River	1,255,000
Skeena	1,631,000
Surrey-White Rock	506,000
Vancouver Centre	1,088,000
Vancouver East	835,000
Vancouver Kingsway	491,000
Vancouver Quadra	368,000
Vancouver South	378,000
Victoria	877,000


Mr. Bawden: 1.	Does the government have any plans for the expansion of French language radio and television services in the Province of Alberta between now and 1980 and, if so, how much will such expansion cost?
2.	What areas of the Province will be covered by the expanded facilities and in which centers will transmission facilities be located?
3.	How many French language persons are to be served by the expanded facilities?

4.	What expansion of English services are to be supplied by radio and television in the Province of Quebec during the same period?
5.	How much will such expansion cost?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. The CBC has plans for the extension of French-language radio and television services in Alberta under the Accelerated Coverage Plan. Estimated costs for each project are made public as soon as a hearing is scheduled by the CRTC.
2.	All areas with 500 or more people now unserved in the appropriate official language are included in the ACP. The ACP is a large, complex and highly integrated five-year undertaking involving more than 300 locations and 600 engineering projects. Names of the locations and the nature of the service to be provided are made public step by step, as applications for licences are made to the CRTC.
3.	Approximately 9,500 French-speaking people in Alberta will receive CBC French radio service and 7,300 will receive CBC French television service.
4.	See reply to part 2.
5.	See second sentence of reply to part 1.


Mr.   J.-J. Blais@Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council: Mr. Speaker, if questions Nos. 3,360 and 3,498 could be orders for returns, these returns would be tabled immediately.


Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What projects have been financed through use of CIDA (or External Aid) funds in Afghanistan (a) which ones are completed and which are still in the course of completion (b) what is the nature and purpose of each such project and what is the estimated cost (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in such projects?
2.	How much credit has the Export Credit Corporation extended for development projects in this country (a) at what rate of interest (b) with what grace period (c) for how long (d) what Canadian companies are involved?
3.	What CUSO, CESO or other NGO project is being financed, if only in part, from CIDA funds in this country and for how much?
4.	How many students from this country are or have been in (a) Canada for training (b) third countries for training and in which ones?
5.	How many projects in this country are being managed by Canadian universities (a) at what cost to CIDA (b) which universities?
6.	What other Canadian public funds are at the disposal of this country for bilaterally-negotiated development projects and which ones?
7.	Is this country a recipient of assistance for any regional project under a CIDA programme and, if so (a) what other countries are involved in each project (b) how much has been allocated by CIDA for these projects (c) how many Canadians or Canadian companies (by name) are involved in these projects?
Return tabled.
January 28, 1976


Mr. Fortin: 1.	For each propriety Crown corporation, what is the government's investment in terms of (a) capital stock (b) long-term (c) medium-term (d) short-term loans?
2.	For each category, what is the rate of interest?
3.	During the past three years, did the government grant any loan under Section 82 of the Financial Administration Act and, if so (a) to whom (b) for how long (c) at what rate of interest?
Return tabled.


Mr.   J.-J. Blais@Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call starred question No. 3,527?


Mr. MacDonald (Egmont): Does the decline, since 1972, in the budget for DREE as a percentage of total government expenditures represent a reduced commitment to, or a lower Cabinet priority for, the goal of reducing regional disparities in Canada and, if not, what is the reason for the decline?


Mr. Cliff Mclsaac (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Regional Economic Expansion):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is "no". The percentage of the total federal budget devoted to DREE is naturally influenced by spending increases in other areas. The most important example of such an increase is, of course, the recent program to cushion consumers from the effects of high international oil prices. However, there have also been substantial rises in spending in other areas such as equalization payments to the provinces and various health and welfare measures. I am sure the hon. member will agree that these are important expenditures.


Mr. Blais:: I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.


Mr.   J.-J. Blais@Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council: I ask, Mr. Speaker, that all notices of motions be allowed to stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Grain Stabilization



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from Monday, January 26, 1976, consideration of the motion of Mr. Lang that Bill C-41, respecting the stabilization of net proceeds from the production and sale of western grain and to amend certain statutes in consequence thereof, be read the third time and do pass, and the amendment of Mr. Blackburn (p. 10321).
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to order made Monday, January 26, 1976, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred division on the amendment of Mr. Blackburn, seconded by Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre). Call in the members.


Mr. Speaker:: I therefore declare the amendment lost.
Amendment (Mr. Blackburn) negatived.


Otto Emil Lang: that the bill be read the third time and do pass.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



MEDICAL CARE ACT


Marc Lalonde: that Bill C-68, an act to amend the Medical Care Act, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish today to move second reading of Bill C-68. In doing so I would like to ask the House to consider first of all the recent development and accomplishments of the Canadian health care delivery system.

I think it fair to say that Canadians enjoy one of the best health care systems in the world. Federal-provincial programs have been in effect since 1958 for hospital care and since 1968 for Medical Care. These programs are based on the principles that they should be available to all residents; that they should be comprehensive; that they be publicly administered; and that the benefits be portable from one province to the other in the case of interprovincial migration and during periods of temporary absence anywhere in the world.
As a result of these programs, virtually the whole population of Canada is at present insured against the costs of necessary hospital and medical care. The federal contributions for these plans come from general revenue. Sources of provincial contributions vary from province to province. The coverage offered is total, in that there is no upper limit to the insured services which may be received as long as they are medically required.
Generally, no payment is required from the patient at the time of service. In addition to these basic medical and hospital care programs that are cost-shared by the federal and provincial governments, the provinces have added other services on an individual priority basis such as home care, dental care for children, ambulance service, prescriptions for older people and so on. The nature of these complementary services varies from one province to another.
The national programs ensure that comprehensive services are available to everyone, but they would be totally ineffective without the natural ability, dedication and excellent training of the men and women who provide these services. I am speaking of the general practitioner, the paediatrician, the obstetrician, other types of specialists, the nurses, and the many other health professionals working in the health field.
What have we accomplished as a result of these health programs? It is difficult sometimes to measure the impact of a major public program because methods for measuring the success or failure are generally not precise. Various mortality rates may be cited although improvements in these rates do not depend solely upon the adequacy of health care. There have been some dramatic improvements in certain indicators. Our maternal mortality rate dropped from 27 per 100,000 live births in 1968 to 11 in 1973, which is now one of the very lowest in the world. During the same period, our infant mortality rate dropped from 20.8 per
1,000	live births to 15.5, by-passing the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and France in ranking.
In 1973 infant mortality in Canada was 14 per cent lower than in the United States while in 1968, it was only slightly lower. We believe that these marked changes, of which we are very proud, are not unrelated to the considerable improvement in both physical and financial access to necessary care which resulted when our medical care program was added to the pre-existing hospital insurance program.
When one hears about people in some other countries where there is no universal health insurance, being faced with the prospect of losing their homes and their life savings through even one episode of serious illness, we can certainly appreciate how lucky Canadians are in comparison with others. The Canadian health insurance programs
January 28, 1976

are a very important part of our social security system. Being universal, they cover virtually all eligible residents of Canada-regardless of age, income, previous health, employment status or place of residence within Canada. Coverage is not subject to interruption during periods of lay-off, unemployment, or retirement, a feature of particular importance to the self-employed and seasonally employed residents of rural areas.
The hospital insurance program certainly solved the acute financial problems that were being experienced by many of our hospitals in the late fifties, and this contributed to a marked improvement in the quality of hospital care, thanks to more stable and rational financing. Despite predictions that the advent of medicare would provoke a mass exodus of physicians to other countries; that immigration of foreign physicians would diminish; and that medicine would cease to be attractive as a career-the number of doctors has in fact dramatically increased since 1968, the year in which the program was implemented. Indeed, this growth rate has been much higher than the growth rate of the population as a whole. This resulted from the attraction of more stable and higher incomes for physicians made possible by medicare; a rapid increase in training facilities; and, until recently, a continuing high rate of immigration.
In 1968 the doctor-population ratio was 1:769. By 1974 this ratio had become 1 doctor to 586 inhabitants. This surpassed the ratio of 1:650 that the 1964 Royal Commission on Health Services had set as a goal for 1991. In fact, at the moment, there is concern among some people- including doctors themselves-that we might be heading towards a surplus of doctors. In fact, we may have reached or surpassed that point already in some specialties. Governments themselves have become concerned about the rate of growth in the number of doctors and measures have been taken to restrict immigration. There are still several problems concerning the distribution of physicians and specialists across Canada. Still, medicare did contribute to improve the distribution of physicians by making it possible to practice in locations where there were enough people but where residents were too poor to support a physician.
Despite the high quality of health services available to most Canadians through our two major national health insurance programs, we have not yet resolved the problem of the rising costs of health services and of these programs in particular, which consume such a large part of the health care dollar.
While total health expenditures in Canada declined as a percentage of our GNP from 7.3 per cent in 1971 to 6.9 per cent in 1973, during the last fiscal year hospital costs rose by 25 per cent over the level of the preceding year. It is expected that a further increase of almost 20 per cent will occur during the current fiscal year, and medicare costs are expected to rise by about 16 per cent over the last fiscal year. Quite obviously we must take such steps as are necessary to prevent these programs becoming more expensive than we can afford, to ensure that Canadians can continue to benefit from them.
Medical Care
This pre-occupation with the escalation of health care costs is not new and goes back at least to late in 1970 when the national medicare program had not yet been implemented in all parts of the country. At that time both levels of government were concerned about the escalation of the costs of health insurance, that is, the escalation of the combined cost of hospital insurance and medicare. The federal government therefore proposed to the provinces that it explore with them alternative cost-sharing arrangements. These arrangements would be aimed at the development of lower cost alternatives to the high cost services insured under the national health insurance programs.
The essence of this proposal was to make more flexible the ground rules for federal cost-sharing in provincial health insurance plans and to cap the open-endedness of the program. Under this proposal the national standards of insured services would be retained, while making it possible for the provinces to spend federal funds on alternative lower cost services.
After nearly two and one-half years of discussion and negotiation, a federal offer on health financing was placed before the provincial governments at the federal-provincial conference of finance and health ministers in May, 1973. However, in September, 1974, the provinces formally rejected the proposal. They indicated that they would prefer arrangements that would increase federal financial participation in alternative lower cost services in return for a provincial commitment to restrain the growth of high-cost services presently supported by both levels of government. Accordingly, at the federal-provincial conference of health ministers held on January 14-15, 1975, I indicated my willingness to explore the possibility suggested by the provinces for a broader interpretation of existing federal health insurance legislation to permit additional cost-sharing. The ministers directed their officials to investigate the proposal at the official level and submit their recommendations by the fall of 1975. Subsequently, in his budget speech of June 23, 1975, the former minister of finance made it clear that the commitment of the federal government to share the costs of encouraging the development of less expensive health care services still stands.
When the former minister of finance brought down the budget on June 23, 1975, he emphasized the serious economic conditions facing our country, and announced a number of measures which the government believed were necessary to strengthen the Canadian economy. Two of these measures affect our national health insurance programs. One involved the giving of notice under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act of the federal government's intention to terminate the existing agreements with effect from July 15, 1980.
While the current negotiations approved by the conference of ministers of health in January, 1975, were intented to foster improvements in the short run, there was nonetheless a general understanding amongst the ministers that the proposed broad interpretation of the federal legislation would not enable us to accommodate all of the lower cost alternatives that might be suggested by the provinces, and that another examination of the need to change the federal legislation would likely be required. In the light of this, the notice to terminate the existing agree-
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January 28, 1976
Medical Care
ments under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act was a logical step.
The other budgetary measure was the establishment of ceilings on the rate of growth of the federal per capital medicare contributions to the provinces. The necessary amendments to the Medical Care Act were then submitted in Bill C-68, which received first reading on July 8, 1975.
The ceilings would have permitted the per capital contributions to the provinces to grow by 13 per cent in 1976-77; 10.5 per cent in 1977-78; and 8.5 per cent in each year thereafter. The proposed ceilings would still have permitted increase in the federal contributions to the provinces of approximately 14.5 per cent in 1967-77; 12 per cent in 1977-78; and 10 per cent in each subsequent year, when allowance is made for the estimated population growth rate of 1.5 per cent per year. The purpose of these ceilings was to provide for more effective cost control. The federal government's view was that the ceilings were realistic. Not only were they in excess of the average increase in recent years, but also the rate of growth of the doctor supply, which had been the major factor causing the rise in medical care costs, was expected to decline.
The provincial governments and the Canadian and provincial medical associations nonetheless objected, some of them strongly, to the ceilings. The provincial views were highlighted at the special meeting of provincial health ministers in Victoria last summer. As a result of these reactions, I personally met with representatives from the Canadian Medical Association, and subsequently made a cross-Canada tour to meet with all the provincial health ministers. In these meetings we discussed the implications of the proposed ceilings and the need for them in the current economic context. We also reviewed the progress which had been made since January, 1975, in the negotiations on new lower cost alternatives. There was general agreement on the need to rationalize the present system. This rationalization would include the extension of insurance coverage to new lower cost services and also tighter control over the number of beds, physicians, immigration of physicians, and hence global expenditures. During these meetings the federal and provincial governments came to understand and appreciate the other's position.
It is in light of these useful consultations that I intend to propose in committee three modifications to Bill C-68. The first is to remove from the bill any reference to a specific ceilling for the years after 1977-78. Thus the bill would establish ceilings for only two years, 1976-77 and 1977-78, rather than indefinitely into the future. The bill would give the federal government authority to set ceilings for subsequent years, in accordance with an appropriate formula to be developed in the meantime, after consulting with the provincial governments. We believe this change will meet a concern, frequently expressed by the provinces and the medical profession, that it was difficult to predict accurately what might be an appropriate ceiling that far in the future.
The second change is a mechanism to ensure that any increases in the federal medicare contributions for new lower cost insured services to rationalize and improve the system would go only to those provinces providing the new services under the medical care program.

Specifically, the modification to Bill C-68 provides for a separate national per capita for each class of new insured service, if and when such classes are added. The need for this change lies in the fact that, under existing legislation, the medicare contribution to each province is dependent in part on the level of a single national per capita cost figure for all medicare services. Thus, as some provinces established new services and included the costs in the total medicare bill, the single national per capital cost would rise. The other provinces would therefore receive increases in their per capita medicare contributions. This would occur even if these other provinces had not established the new services themselves, or had established them under the Canada Assistance Plan and were thus already collecting federal payments under that plan. Separate national per capitas for each new class of insured service would solve this problem, for they would be used to calculate the federal medicare contribution only for those provinces providing the new services under the Medical Care Act. Thus the provinces providing the new insured services would receive the full federal contribution payable in respect of the services.
The third change is to provide a 36 month exemption from ceilings for new insured services from the date on which they are prescribed as an insured service under the Medical Care Act. The original bill provided for an exemption for only the first year, when costs of such services may not be very high. New low cost programs generally require at least two or three years of growth to build up sufficiently to meet all the needs which would otherwise have to be met by acute treatment facilities. It is only after this stage that their cost growth should be brought in line with the much slower rate appropriate to the more mature, existing services.
It might be suggested that Bill C-68 with the proposed amendments is no longer necessary on the basis that the anti-inflation program is now in operation. I continue to believe, however, that there are definite advantages in introducing ceilings on the allowable rate of increase of costs under the medical care program. The ceilings will provide an incentive to exercise appropriate cost control over medicare costs, for example, by encouraging prudent use by both providers and recipients of services, and by introducing lower cost alternatives to high cost services, wherever feasible.
Certainly in my meetings across Canada I received a clear indication that the provincial governments were committed to rationalizing the health system and controlling costs. They are willing to introduce low cost alternatives on a cost sharing basis and in return commit themselves to reduce the rate of escalation of high cost services. The retention of the ceiling concept will provide the provinces with an additional incentive to meet their suggested targets, for example, in the area of physician supply. It will also provide the federal government with the necessary safety valve vis-a-vis program costs if the provinces fail to meet their commitments. There is no doubt that if new insured services are to be included in the national program, both levels of government will want them to be as effective and efficient as possible.
January 28, 1976

The principles of Bill C-68, and of the amendments, that it will propose in committee are therefore consistent with the objectives of the anti-inflation program. However, it is believed that the more flexible approach taken towards the ceiling levels in the years after 1977-78 will be more acceptable to all concerned, because these ceilings can be established later in the light of more current information about the rate of inflation and other factors.

There are several ways of controlling health costs, which are currently being explored. One is to make the health care system more efficient, and this we intend to do in co-operation with the provinces. Another measure, the necessity for which emerged clearly in the working document "A New Perspective on the Health of Canadians", is to strengthen preventive efforts and to encourage people to assume more responsibility for maintaining and improving their own health.
Greater emphasis will be placed on reducing health hazards in the environment and on increasing health awareness among the Canadian population. Individuals, particularly those in high risk groups, will be encouraged to exercise, to smoke and drink less, to eat more wisely, and to pay more attention to accident prevention. The pay-off in improved health and well-being and the savings in health care costs could be tremendous. We have initiated a broad health awareness campaign to urge people to take more responsibility for their personal lifestyles and for their environment. Furthermore, air and water pollution, and environmental contaminants, can affect us all and the government intends to intensify efforts for their control.
Some provincial spokesmen-and indeed some hon. members opposite-have expressed alarm over the federal government's decision that costs in the health field must be contained. To help put their fears to rest, I would like to demonstrate one way whereby we could save hundreds of millions of dollars if the provincial governments, under whose responsibility this matter lies, could decide to act in a determined fashion. I am referring to the case of traffic accidents which, after heart disease, is the second most important cause of early death. In 1971, such accidents cost us 250,000 years of potential life. Human factors are blamed for 80 per cent of traffic deaths, including driving while impaired, speeding, carelessness and failure to use seat belts. This is not to mention the number of injuries on the road which totalled 223,777 in 1973 and the tremendous costs of related medical and hospital care.
The costs of traffic accidents in Canada reach well over $2 billion a year including costs of hospital care and treatment for accident victims who require over 2 million days of hospitalization. Hospitalization is estimated to cost the country at least $200 million a year and medical care costs amount to approximately another $100 million. The price tag is increased by legal expenses, public liability, property damage, loss of time from work and the costs of permanent disability.
Australia has implemented seat belt legislation over the past three years and, in the first full year of enforcement had a reduction of 25 per cent in fatal motor vehicle accidents. Similarly, France reported recently that its new compulsory seat belt legislation saved 1,200 lives in 1974.
Medical Care
The Nova Scotia Legislature in December 1974 approved such new safety measures which set an excellent precedent in Canada, although this legislation has yet to be proclaimed. It would be a great step forward in health promotion if Nova Scotia's lead in this matter were brought to a speedy and successful conclusion.
Another step in the right direction was taken when the Legislative Assembly in Ontario recently passed a provincial government bill which has made the use of seat belts mandatory since January 1 of this year. It is expected this move will mean a substantial saving in injuries, lives and health costs. A further encouraging development was the recent announcement by the Minister of Transport of Quebec that the provincial government intended to introduce legislation which would make the use of seat belts mandatory by next summer. This would be accompanied by selective reductions in speed limits on certain roads which are considered particularly dangerous. Other measures include a program of mechanical inspection of motor vehicles, tire inspection, new methods of police surveillance of roads, and review of the system of demerit points for impaired driving. I hope that the other provinces will soon follow the initiatives of Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia.
The federal and provincial governments agreed in 1974, to undertake a five-year program aimed at reducing the fatal motor vehicle accident rate by 15 per cent. The federal government, through the Ministry of Transport, and several provinces are co-operating in a three-month public education program this winter to encourage the use of seat belts as a coast to coast lifesaving habit.
Industrial safety in Canada is sadly inadequate. In 1974, 1,415 workers were killed on the job. The average for each of the past 10 years has been 1,076. One out of 20 workers had a disabling injury in 1974-a total of over 473,000 injuries. Think what these figures mean in terms of lost production, in human suffering, in social allowances, in medical and hospital care. Industrial accidents were recently estimated to cost the United States $32.4 billion annually. Canadian losses are doubtless as high in relation to our smaller population-perhaps in the neighbourhood of $3 billion a year. Can we really afford it?
Industry could do a great deal more to reduce deaths, injuries and the health costs related to industrial accidents. An interesting new program is being provided by St. John Ambulance with the most appropriate name of LIFE-Learn Industrial First Aid Effectively. It employs a multimedia course at no cost to the employee and all training is on an in-plant basis. Studies have shown that employees not trained in first-aid had an accident rate double that of their trained counterparts of the same age, sex, job and company. First-aid training in industry has another advantage: a worker can use that skill at home. A recent study shows that off-the-job injuries resulting in one or more days' absence from work, occur six times more frequently than on-the-job injuries; and fatalities are 10 times higher. This study included automobile accident. Under the LIFE program, training costs are tax deductible, a fact that many people do not realize, and I would strongly urge industry to implement first aid training programs to improve our industrial safety record.
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January 28, 1976
Medical Care
Another major measure to reduce costs is to make the health care delivery system more efficient. For example, a number of lower cost alternative methods of providing health care offer the potential to produce substantial savings.
In January, 1975 as I have already mentioned, I made a special offer to the provinces in relation to sharing in lower cost alternatives but negotiations were suspended after the announcements in the June budget. I am pleased to report that the provinces are now ready to resume our negotiations and, of course, I am delighted with this development. I expect that there will be meetings of deputy ministers and of ministers of health in the near future to continue our negotiations. The federal government remains willing to extend sharing to some of the lower cost alternatives in exchange for a provincial commitment that high cost services will be controlled and de-emphasized. The lower cost alternatives being considered include less expensive types of institutional care, services provided in the home and various types of ambulatory care centres. Diversifying our methods of care can reduce the dependence on high-cost services.
The intention of the federal government is to work with the provincial governments and the health professionals to maintain and improve the system of health care so carefully built up in Canada over the past twenty years, and to ensure its continued viability by keeping the costs within the limits this country can afford. This is an objective worthy of the support of all Canadians, individuals and governments. Each one of us can contribute to the health of this country through our individual efforts to prevent illness and accidents and our prudent use of health care services. Governments must, with imagination and courage, respond to the challenge of finding ways of operating the system more efficiently.
To sum up, there is under the federal proposals, every reason why it will be possible to keep on improving the quality of the Canadian health care system. Some have stated that the proposed restraints will destroy the national health insurance programs. That, of course, is ridiculous, that is demagoguery. We are imposing realistic ceilings on the allowable rate of increase for medical care cost sharing. In addition we have given five-years notice of our intention to terminate and replace, I repeat replace, existing agreements under the hospital insurance plan. The federal government has made clear its willingness to provide more flexibility and more dollars rather than less to help improve the efficiency and effectiveness of our health care system.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, let me emphasize that the government is committed to a general, fundamental review of health financing arrangements. The amendments to Bill C-68 will facilitate the general review and will make it possible to proceed more rapidly with the rationalization of the system by the introduction of lower cost services, as the review progresses.
Mr. Speaker, I therefore move second reading of Bill C-68, subject to the amendments I have described.


Mr. Paul Yewchuk (Athabasca):: Mr. Speaker, the minister has just concluded what I thought was a rather long and boring speech, so I hope the House will forgive me if I am charged with the same thing. The minister talked for a long time about many things related directly or indirectly to the health field, including references to his "new perspectives" book, health standards in this country being great compared with other countries and a number of other things. However, I am afraid in his discussion he failed to make a good case in support of the bill now before the House.
I think it is fair to say that most of us in this House who are taxpayers, or who are here representing taxpayers, will agree that government should take some kind of action to keep health costs down to a satisfactory level. But when government at the federal level is dealing with the provinces and discussing legal and binding federal-provincial agreements, any changes in those agreements should be made through the process of negotiation with the provinces. When there are these kinds of agreements, bilateral negotiations should be the order of the day. Instead we have had what amounts to a unilateral, arbitrary withdrawal from a commitment made to the provinces, which was against the will of the provinces in the first place.
When we are examining health costs, we should examine carefully where the costs have been increasing most rapidly. When we do that, we find that it certainly has not been in the area of medical care. Increasing costs, rather, have been very much on the institutional side of health costs. This bill does not come even slightly to grips with that matter.
The minister made a reference to "Perspectives on Health", a book which he brought forward in this House a year or so ago, which suggested that health costs can be reduced by changing people's life styles, by encouraging people to do fewer of the things which are destructive to their health, and I do not think anyone will argue about that. If people follow that advice, in the long-term the cost of health services will fall. Yet, paradoxically, the minister's statement runs contrary to what he has been doing these past few weeks. I am referring to the freeze of the Medical Council research budget, now frozen at last year's level. Considering that the cost of medical research went up 18 per cent this past year, freezing the budget at last year's level is the same as effectively reducing it by 18 per cent.
Figures put forward by experts in the field indicate that every dollar spent on medical research today brings a saving of $20 in health costs ten years down the road. Although the minister talks of reducing costs down the road, he is doing something which will increase costs substantially in ten years. He is reducing the medical research budget, and has never presented any logical explanation for doing so.
The present Liberal government which, unfortunately, is governing this country, has a long history of confronting various groups, whether they be provinces, professional groups, labour unions, business or private citizens. This bill represents once again a provocative confrontation with
January 28, 1976

provinces and with professional groups involved in providing medical service to Canadians. The government's present attitude in this regard is shameful. This bill represents unilateral action on the part of the federal government. It is arbitrary and has been brought forward without meaningful consultation with the provinces. Indeed, it indicates a lack of concern for the opinions of provinces in matters concerning federal-provincial agreements.
The bill proposes to limit the federal government's participation in medicare to 13 per cent next year, 10.5 per cent the following year, and 8 per cent in subsequent years. The minister said he will propose amendments in committee. Since he has not provided me with a written copy of any amendment I must rely on what I heard him say today. Today he said there will be negotiations. Perhaps that is the wrong word. There will be consultations with the provinces; but the federal government still has authority to set the ceilings.
The minister may give the appearance of backing down a little on the matter of ceilings, but I submit that he is not backing down at all. He is simply trying to take the heat off himself by saying that the government will consult with the provinces. Yet the government, as I say, still wants authority to set ceilings. Provinces will need to examine carefully the meaning of "consultation". Provinces must be careful when dealing with the federal government, as we know what it means by consultation. When the government speaks of consultation, one must not confuse such consultation with meaningful negotiation. In the past, consultation has often been a process whereby the provinces or others were simply notified of the government's decision. Therefore I am not relieved to hear what the minister has to say with regard to proposed amendments because I believe that essentially this process will not change anything in the bill. I think he will continue on his merry way, as he originally planned.
Before exposing many other inadequacies of the bill, it would be useful to review the reaction of the provinces to the bill, which was introduced shortly after the June 23, 1975, budget. I have before me copies of communications sent by the provincial health ministers. Their reactions to the minister's proposal range from bewilderment to indignation.
Clearly the provinces were unanimous in disapproving of the government's action. For example, after the budget speech was delivered in this House in June, 1975, the Ontario minister immediately called for a health ministers' conference. The conference was held in Victoria on August 18 and 19, 1975. At the conclusion of the meeting provincial opposition to this bill was virtually unanimous. The major objection expressed was that the bill represented unilateral federal government action, and that it was arbitrary. The health ministers at that time agreed to demand a meeting with the federal Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) in the hope of finding common ground on this matter as between the federal and provincial governments. They hoped the federal government might be persuaded to be more flexible.
Meeting later, the provincial premiers declared that, because of Bill C-68 and the federal government's intention to terminate the existing hospital insurance in five
Medical Care
years, the issue of cost-sharing had become their first priority in federal-provincial negotiations and discussions.
In a telegram sent to the federal Minister of National Health and Welfare, the Manitoba minister of health said: Your government's decision to proceed with major changes on a unilateral basis is a serious disappointment to our province and, I assume, to most others ... Not only does the decision represent an apparent breach of our earlier understanding (in January) but also, and more importantly, it suggests that your government has every intention of implementing legislative changes which will cause the primary financial responsibility for the future reform of health care and for the maintenance of existing service standards to be borne by the provincial governments and their taxpayers ... It is obvious that such a decision would represent a significant threat to our national health standards- standards based on a system which the federal government itself initiated.
The Quebec minister of social affairs in his telegram to the federal minister of June 25, 1975, said:
First of all, I deplore the unilateral ceiling put on medical insurance by the federal government without warning ... One must make the distinction between an economic measure favouring the Quebec taxpayer and an economic measure destined to benefit nothing but the federal treasury-the statement by (your) government belongs to this second category.
At the Victoria conference, on August 18, 1975, the Prince Edward Island minister of health said:
The implementation of Bill C-68 would have a very serious effect on the level of health care services in P.E.I.... Our resources are severely strained to meet the rising cost with federal contributions under the present arrangement.
The Nova Scotia minister of public health said this to the Victoria conference:
I share a good deal of the concern of my colleagues from other provinces on the announcements made by the Honourable John Turner .. .
That same minister, in a letter to myself, dated July 18, said:
In summary, we regret that the government used the budget speech to advise the provinces of the limitations ...
I submit that when the minister speaks about consultation with regard to the amendments he is proposing, we can assume that he will announce either in this House or perhaps in the press what the new limits are to be after two years.


An hon. Member:: Perhaps he will do it in his election campaign.


Paul Yewchuk: Or perhaps he will do it in an election campaign.
The Ontario minister of health put the matter in these terms:
... if I have ever seen any example of unilateral decision-making without consultation with the provinces, that is it. We have been negotiating patiently for four years with the federal government to get a means of sharing health care costs that would allow the provinces to use their own discretion and to set their own priorities, instead of sharing on only those most costly services, the hospital and the physician. In the face of that, without any further consultation, they unilaterally set guidelines. They started the plan; it has got out of control. They have unilaterally limited the amount they will put into it. I don't know how we'll live within it.
The comments I have read are a fair sample of provincial thinking. I will not read all the communications in front of me, because I know others want time to speak. I also have

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responses from the medical people affected by this measure, particularly the Canadian Medical Association.
Before I go into that, let me just touch a little on the idea that this move by the federal government is in some way going to encourage the provinces to take greater care to reduce health costs. That concept or idea put forward by the minister is nothing less than ridiculous. The fact is that the provinces are now carrying half the cost load of medicare costs. Indeed, if these costs, rising as they are, are a great motivation to the federal government to try to keep them down, I cannot see how the minister can be justified in saying that there is no motivation for the provinces to keep the costs down. The motivation is the same. The provinces must get the money from the taxpayer and foot the bill as well.
We cannot accept as legitimate the minister's claim that this kind of cap, as he called it, will provide greater motivation to the provinces. I feel they are already sufficiently motivated in view of the fact they are now paying half the cost.
The Canadian Medical Association dealt even more harshly with this bill. I suppose that is because they are very directly affected by the outcome of it. On July 10, 1975, the Canadian Medical Association declared, and I quote:
The budget controls will produce definite health hazards for Canada's health care delivery system. The government of Canada's budget controls will have the effect of restricting the availability of health care. .. in effect, rationing needed medical care, unless additional funds are provided by the provinces or the public. This action could endanger the quality of medical services available to Canadians.
The Canadian Medical Association also pointed out the arbitrariness of the percentages in this bill. The minister says that the percentages which were set are higher than the increases have been in the past few years. Perhaps this is true. However, I think it is worth pointing out at this time that over the past few years the medical associations were asked to exercise voluntary restraint in the interest of keeping down these costs. They have indeed been doing that.
The increases per capita of medical care costs in Canada from 1971 to 1972 averaged 6.9 per cent. That was the increase in medical costs, 6.9 per cent. At the same time the average increase per capita of the gross national product at market price was 12.8 per cent. Furthermore, the consumer price index for the same period rose at 7.9 per cent annually, and the average weekly wages and salaries in the industrial sector rose in the area of 8.5 per cent annually. This clearly shows that the increases in the per capita medicare costs have been lower than in any of the other areas I have mentioned.
I think we can fairly say that reasonable restraint has been practised by the medical profession in this area. Since no one else has been showing significant restraint, perhaps they feel the time has come that they should do some catching up. However, this is where the minister takes out his sledgehammer and uses it on the heads of the medical profession in order to prevent any notion of catching up which they feel justified about doing. The Research Director of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. J. Brandejs,

on August 15, 1975, pointed out that while the budgetary ceilings may be realistic, they are arbitrary. Grounds existed, he said, for concern centring on both the immutability of the guidelines and the low social value they seem to put on Canadian physicians.
From the point of view of regional interests, they voice great concern over their inability to improve local standards of health care. They maintain that the ceilings will forestall future developments which certain provinces have been planning at this time, particularly in areas where low economic conditions exist.
When this measure was first introduced in the budget last June, the national press was not very quick to appreciate the significance of this aspect of it. They concentrated more on the gasoline tax and the over-all inadequacy of that document. But as a result of the health ministers' conference in Victoria the media began to realize just how serious an impact this legislation will have on co-operative federalism and the health care delivery system. As an example of the kind of statements made by editors on this subject I quote from the August 13, 1975, edition of The Commonwealth:
The health ministers' conference must expose the spending ceilings for the Alice-in-Wonderland unreality they represent. How does the number 13 per cent relate to economic and health conditions for the year 1976-77, for example? Who knows? Who can tell? The minister knows, but the minister is not talking.
This again points out the arbitrariness of these programs. The August 19, 1975, edition of the London Free Press contained the following, and I quote:
Unilateral actions like this are damaging to federalism and should be avoided ... Provincial governments are justifiably annoyed that they were not consulted prior to Mr. Turner's decision.
One might have added this was particularly the case because it was the federal government which had imposed this program on the provinces in the first place. That is the saddest part of all. This program was shoved down the throats of the provinces in spite of their screams of agony and despair. They did not want it, yet it was done. The federal government is now taking the first step in opting out of this program. I am sure this is only the first step. It will not stop with this bill. If the government does intend to stop, I would like it to say so in this House.
What are the implications of Bill C-68? I have already touched on a lot of them. Historically, as the leader of my party pointed out, Bill C-68 is just one more case of the Liberal government going before the provinces, making a deal, and then a few weeks later or a few months later taking some action unilaterally which amounts to a doublecross.
At the federal-provincial conference of July 1965 the then Prime Minister, Mr. Pearson, announced a federal government resolution to provide financial support for provincially administered medicare plans. He asserted his government's intention to share 50 per cent of the cost of medical services if the provinces were able to meet his four basic principles of eligibility: comprehensive, universality, public administration, and portability.
It was not until the fiscal year 1970 that all the provinces were brought under the medical care umbrella. In the meantime a great deal of pressure was brought to bear against the federal proposal by provincial governments
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and medical and professional associations. While the then minister of national health and welfare, currently the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. MacEachen), confidently estimated that the net cost of the scheme to the two levels of government would be $80 million, Ontario Treasurer Charles S. Macnaughton, speaking to the federal-provincial meeting of finance ministers in November, 1968, said,-it turned out to be a prophecy-and I quote:
What guarantee have we that in a few years from now, the federal government will not dump the full responsibility for this program on the provinces, and close off or limit its contributions after it has obliged the provinces to embark on its slippery slope?
That has proven to be exactly what is happening. I hope that if the minister has any conscience at all he feels very guilty about this state of affairs created by his party.
In those early years of the medicare concept, opposition to the federal government's proposal came from two camps and centred on two quite different principles. The provinces contended that the Medical Care Act represented federal encroachment upon an area of exclusively provincial jurisdiction; that provincial priorities were being distorted by the availability of federal dollars; that the program was untimely and uncalled for, given existing health care systems and other considerations, and that under the scheme the provinces had very little control over administrative costs, procedures, or priorities. On the other hand, the Canadian Medical Association strenuously questioned the principle of government interference with a professional body. As it turned out, both groups knew what they were talking about.
In the mid-sixties, no fewer than seven task force committees were established to study the escalating cost of health care. Appearing on the second page of their summary report is the flat statement that there were many examples of cases where economies could be achieved without in any way diminishing the quality of health care. The report itemized three pages of examples which it characterized as "just a few". It concluded with the noteworthy sum of 337 recommendations. When this report was published, a federal-provincial committee was established to scrutinize the financial operation of the Canadian health care system. This committee was entrusted with an ongoing consultative role in an attempt to revamp the financial end of the system.
More recently still, the Department of National Health and Welfare published a document entitled "A New Perspective on the Health of Canadians". In this document the minister and his staff introduce a new typology to cover the health field concept: human biology, environment, life style, and health care. They described this new approach as "a unified whole which permits everyone to see the importance of all factors".
My purpose in making this brief rundown of studies and statements on health care reform is to contrast them explicitly with the content and, what is more, the intent of Bill C-68. The government had more than 300 recommendations at its disposal yet it chose to ignore all of them, opting instead, for budgetary ceilings. Mr. Speaker, the real reason for the introduction of the "health field concept" by the Department of National Health and Welfare was to advance the premise that improvements in life style
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and environment are as conducive to good health as is medicine. Yet the government has not applied this powerful notion even marginally to the question in hand.
The third major finding of the 1969 task force report acknowledged that effective and efficient health care delivery demands co-ordinated government planning. Yet the government now unilaterally imposes budgetary ceilings thereby threatening the continued vitality of the federal-provincial consultative process. In short, however much as we might criticize the content of Bill C-68, the most distasteful part of the whole business is the fact that legislation of this sort was introduced at all.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Paul Yewchuk: Consider also the arbitrariness of this bill. If it is passed the ceilings specified within its clauses will become statutory. Although one of the basic principles of responsible government is that parliament cannot bind its successors, political realists take it for granted that reversal of procedures previously undertaken is a long and arduous process. Since health care ceilings will for all practical purposes be unalterable, the question must be raised: what if they are simply too low? What if the desired standards of health care just cannot be maintained within the restrictions of the bill? The figures seem to have been pulled out of a hat; they are unaccompanied by any explanation as to how they were derived.
In other words, by putting these ceilings into the bill the government will ensure that, as long as inflation continues and medical costs continue to increase at an accelerated rate, the taxpayer will inevitably suffer either in terms of increased provincial taxes or in terms of reduced health services. In brief, the ceilings are wrong because (1) there is no immediate reason to believe they are appropriate, and (2) there is no flexibility to them despite the lengthy time span in which it is contemplated they will be enforced.
Another way of expressing this difficulty is to say that the gross federal expenditures on health care for all ensuring years in an inflationary era will depend solely on growth expenditures for 1975-76. That is, since ceilings are calculated as a percentage increase in expenditures from year to year, and since the percentage increase for any given year will be dependent on the absolute expenditure of the previous year, gross expenditures for 1975-76 become all important. And since expenditures for 1975-76 are a quantity which is still not completely known, the government can as yet have no idea what impact the budgetary ceilings will have in the long run.
However, extrapolating from national medical care expenditures in 1974-75,-expenditures which amounted to $1.37 billion-we can calculate the consequences if outlays should increase marginally, as projected, or markedly. We know that if final medical care expenditures in 1975 were to increase by a marginal 3 per cent to $1.41 billion they could rise to no more than $2.54 billion by 1980. Were expenditures to increase by a quite conceivable 15 per cent in 1975-the minister said 16 per cent-they could, on the other hand, stand at $2.86 billion by 1980, a third of a billion dollars more. It is worth nothing that the increase projected by the government, at 6.5 per cent, can itself be described as a marginal one.

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Confronted with a situation such that a difference in expenditures of $.17 billion in 1975 could result in a difference of $.32 billion in capital outlay in 1980, the provinces would be foolish not to attempt to hand the federal government the largest medical care bill possible in the base year. Instead of lowering health care costs, Bill C-68 will actually raise them.
To sum up, it is quite impossible to forecast accurately what is going to happen to medical care in Canada in the light of the changes suggested in Bill C-68. Because the long term shape of health care services in Canada is dependent on so many usually conflicting variables, and facts are not easily quantified, it is nothing but frivolous to seek to predict the future of this field in blind confidence. Nevertheless that is exactly what the government has done in introducing Bill C-68.
Spokesmen for the government will no doubt argue that the imposition of ceilings on federal contributions will not impose undue strain on provincial coffers and will not result in any significant reduction in health services. Let us suppose for the sake of argument that all goes according to plan-that the guidelines encourage provincial restraint and constitute a positive input into the plan's budget forecasting. Because doctors' fees make up a large part of medicare's budget this state of affairs will come about only if the cost of doctors' services does not rise above the budgetary ceilings. But if the cost of those services does rise above the ceilings the government is in fact imposing wage controls on a single identifiable professional group. I know this has altered somewhat with the anti-inflation program, which has placed some limits on all professional incomes, but when the anti-inflation program was introduced the bill was to be in effect for three years. That is a temporary measure, but Bill C-68 is not temporary, it is permanent.

It still remains to be seen whether indeed the anti-inflation program will be temporary; if we listen to the remarks of the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) which he made a while ago we might conclude that the program will not be temporary at all. The fact is that Bill C-68 places permanent wage controls on the incomes of professional groups that provide medical services to the people of Canada, which seems to me to be rather discriminatory against one specific professional group.
Few would disagree with the view that the federal government, because it is responsible for the over-all scrutiny of the economy, must have the power to control its own budget. To a certain extent it is true that the open-endedness of the financial aspect of medicare is such that the central government cannot monitor its expenditures on a year to year basis. However, the statistics of the matter offer some rather valuable insights into the urgency of these arguments.
The former finance minister, the hon. member for Ottawa-Carleton (Mr. Turner), maintained that health care costs have risen almost 20 per cent over the last fiscal year. The hon. member was correct in his figure of 20 per cent no doubt, but what he neglected to mention was that the great bulk of this increase was the direct result of escalating expenditures, not in medical but in hospital

care. In fact the figures demonstrate quite clearly that in the last two years for which statistics are complete, 1972-73 and 1973-74, the increase in medical costs has been only 9.2 and 7.2 per cent respectively. In 1971 the figure was 6.9 per cent per year, as I have already mentioned. Furthermore, the figures show very plainly that since the time when the medical care system matured, the costs to the federal government have not been increasing at a rate greater than national income.
So why did the central government arbitrarily decide to establish spending ceilings on a program which has not demonstrated the run-away cost increases of other federally sponsored projects? The answer probably lies in the fact that between 70 and 80 per cent of the total cost of medical care consists of salaries and wages. During a period of inflation and rapid wage escalation such as we have been experiencing, a 20 per cent increase in wages would result in a 14 to 16 per cent increase in total budgetary outlay. By imposing these ceilings the federal government hoped to ensure that it would not have to pay medical costs which are a direct result of its inability to control inflation.
More disturbing than federal deviousness are the prospects for increased taxes and decreased services. Granted that expenditures may appear to be under control, there are signs that a rapid upturn in the capital outlay required to maintain health standards is imminent. For example, Ontario physicians received and increase of only 4 per cent in their fee schedule in 1974 and recently were asking for 20 per cent in 1975. In addition, many provinces maintain that they need a catching up period in order to raise their regional standards to national levels. Either event occurring could cause a marked increase in medical care expenditures, and under the stimulus of Bill C-68 both are likely to occur at least in 1975-76 before the limits go into effect.
So while the federal government has introduced these ceilings avowedly in order to encourage economies in medical care, the bill does not even ensure economies. Nothing in the act actually stops the provinces from improving their health care services, and nothing actually stops physicians, after the expiry of the Anti-Inflation Act, from demanding heftier salaries. All the bill does ensure is that, if either of these events should occur, it is the provinces which will have to pick up the additional costs, either in the form of increased premium rates or in depleted provincial revenues, perhaps at the sacrifice of other provincial programs. Thus the analogy to be drawn is not one of the government slapping the hand that reaches into the taxpayer's pocket, but another, that if there is a need to pay for increased medical costs it is the provinces or the doctors who must do the reaching.
Should costs rise above and beyond the cost-sharing limitations, any one of the following three situations may develop: first, provincial revenues will be drained and other programs or priorities will have to be deflected in order to meet the increased costs; second, where applicable, as in British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and the Yukon, premiums will have to be increased in order to offset greater provincial medical expenditures; or third, if the provinces cannot meet the budgetary restraints, medical services will have to be reduced.
In other words, if medical costs increase at a greater rate than that allowed by the 1975 budgetary ceilings, then the
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provinces will be forced to seek those very solutions that the current Minister of Labour (Mr. Munro), the then minister of health and welfare, foresaw as undesirable in his introduction to the task force report of 1969.
Equally bad are the implications for co-operative federalism. In Canada there is no constitutional mechanism or provision for the practice of cost sharing. Likewise, the federal government has no constitutional grounds for entering the health field. Both are the result of convention and the ongoing evolution of Canadian federalism. The practice of cost sharing has ensured the maintenance of national standards, while the very principle of co-operative federalism is undoubtedly one of the most distinguishing features of our nation. But the government's five year notice of its withdrawal from the present hospital insurance plan and the imposition of ceilings on contributions to medical insurance threaten both of these principles and practices.
Although it is impossible to gauge precisely the impact of Bill C-68 on our system of federalism, indications of the drift of events are already evident. The unilateral nature of this measure has outraged the provinces. Their immediate reaction was to call for the instant cessation of all cost sharing consultation with the federal government.
If the government's ploy in introducing this legislation was to "bring the provinces back to the bargaining table", as those same provinces have since suggested was the case, it is now clear that this ploy was completely misconceived. Ontario has demanded a 17 point tax transfer from the federal government in exchange for opting out of medicare. The former minister of finance, the hon. member for Ottawa-Carleton, flatly rejected this offer, but should Ontario continue to press and eventually succeed in opting out, it would mean that the principle and practice of a national system of prepaid medical insurance would be completely thwarted. Furthermore, such an event occurring could set a disastrous precedent in the field of federal equalization.
Finally, if increased costs do occur it would be the have-not provinces which would be the first to be obliged to reduce their medical care services. In areas where the physician-to-population ratio is already low, this reduction would coincide with a marked downturn in the level of health care and would exacerbate regional disparities which we all want to try to correct.
In conclusion, Madam Speaker, if the minister has been listening to what I have been saying-


An hon. Member:: He has not.


Paul Yewchuk: I doubt that he has, because he has been chatting away to the member sitting behind him for most of the time, which I think is very bad. I listened carefully to his remarks when he spoke.


Marc Lalonde: There is no problem; I can listen to both of you.


Paul Yewchuk: It seems the minister has many talents- he can talk and listen at the same time. However, had he been listening I am sure he would have realized that this bill is indeed ill-conceived and should be withdrawn. If he is serious about co-operative federalism he should sit down
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at the negotiating table with the provinces and try to resolve this difficulty in a friendly, positive and bilateral way.


John Edward Broadbent: Madam Speaker, I should like to say regretfully at the outset that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) was not listening to the remarks of the hon. member for Athabasca (Mr. Yewchuk), and that is unfortunate because that hon. member has made one of the finest speeches on the subject of medicare I have heard anywhere, here in the House of Commons or outside.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: His speech was an extremely thoughtful and competent approach to this very serious problem, and I repeat that I thought it most particularly unfortunate that a minister, who again trotted out a speech before the House that he had delivered prior to last June, had not apparently been listening. That hon. minister's speech was full of rather banal suggestions about what the provinces should be doing to curb accidents on the highway. He went on at great length in that way, making a speech he had presented to the House before, yet he sat there without listening when the official spokesman for the opposition delivered his thoughtful and serious approach to this subject.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: Unfortunately the minister paid not one bit of attention while that official spokesman for the opposition did such a fine job.


Marc Lalonde: You should withdraw that.


John Edward Broadbent: That is unfortunate, Madam Speaker, and it shows something of the attitude of the minister who ignored the official spokesman of the Conservative party just as he has ignored, during the past year, the provincial health ministers of every province.


Marc Lalonde: Do you want to sit down and allow me to repeat the hon. member's speech? If the hon. member is patient enough I can do it.


John Edward Broadbent: We can all read Hansard.


Marc Lalonde: Not that way. Sit down and I will do it now.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: Madam Speaker, it is a rare occasion on which I quote a Liberal.


Marc Lalonde: I rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker. Let me remind the hon. member that he was one of the members who came and disturbed me at my seat when I was trying to listen to the hon. member.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: Even for the Minister of National Health and Welfare that is reaching. I will tell the House what I asked the minister. I was getting something he said
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straight. I did not want to get it wrong. I will tell the House what I asked him. I asked him what his forecast was for the increase in medicare for the next year and he said he did not know. He said he thought it might be such and such. By a strange coincidence he then said he thought the increase in the cost of medicare for the next year might be somewhere between 14 and 15 per cent. By some strange coincidence he said in his own speech that it is expected to be 14.5 per cent. It is a strange fact that his forecast should be midway between what he has indicated-


Marc Lalonde: I rise on the same point of order, Madam Speaker. The hon. member claims I was not listening to what the other hon. member was saying. I have said I listened, very attentively, and as a matter of fact I find it strange that this hon. member had to come over here to ask me whether I had said something in my speech, because he was having an argument with one of his colleagues about whether I might have said something or not and he wanted to check it. He certainly was not paying very much attention to what I was saying when I was speaking for the government. I think the hon. member had better watch it; he is living in a glass house.


John Edward Broadbent: Again, Madam Speaker, even for the minister he is reaching. Of course I was listening. I went over there to talk to him about a point he had made as I wanted to get it precise. That could hardly be the case if we were not listening. How could we raise a question about what he said had we not been listening? He is not going to get off that easily.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: The point I am making is that we just heard a first rate speech, and I hope the minister reads it. I simply do not believe that he could repeat it because he was talking during the entire speech. In addition, the same minister for the past year has treated the provincial health ministers of this country of every party in the same way he treats members of this House. This minister said he promised those ministers a year ago that he would meet with them. He said he would get together with them to work out, on a mutually agreeable basis, methods of curbing unnecessary increases in the cost of medicare, and I stress the phrase "unnecessary costs". He did not do any such thing.
The former minister of finance brought in a budget last June arbitrarily setting spending limits on the part of the federal government for the next three years. Not since that time has the Minister of National Health and Welfare sat down with the provincial ministers to work out any mutually agreeable methods of curbing increased medicare costs, and that is particularly important in a federal country like ours, certainly in respect of an essential service like medicare. The whole approach should be one of mutual acceptability rather than arbitrary imposition by the federal government, but the latter is exactly what we have received from this minister.
Let me quote from a member of the other place. I would not normally be inclined to quote such an individual because he also happens to be a Liberal. However, I think Senator David Croll summed up this bill perhaps more

succinctly than anyone else when he said, after it was announced:
It is wrong in concept; it is divisive in practice and in my opinion it is wrong, wrong, wrong, a thousand times wrong-
I think Senator David Croll was right on in that pithy statement of his.
At the beginning of the minister's comments he referred to some amendments he was going to introduce when this bill reaches the committee stage. The only one that has a substantial element to it is the suggestion that the provision now in the bill, which provides a 10 per cent ceiling on federal government contributions to medicare costs for the years 1978 and 1979, is to be removed. The minister rather magnanimously said the government was arbitrarily going to take that part out, and that he is going to negotiate with the provinces.
The minister says he is going to consult with the provinces. He says he is going to consult with the provincial ministers in order to get a new formula, with a solid commitment on the federal level of ceilings. We know how good his promises in this field have been in the past. I am sure that not only the people in this House but in all the provincial legislatures will accept that with skepticism.
The other reason for skepticism in this regard is that the odds are about 20 to 1 we are going to have a federal election in 1978. I think perhaps it is something a little more than coincidence that the government is going to leave these arbitrary ceilings off for the next two years. Then I am sure that during the next election campaign the government will announce in a truly generous way some kind of medicare program of which we will be reasonably sure for at least one year.


Robert Gordon Lee Fairweather: Like their new railway policy.


John Edward Broadbent: Yes, just like the railway policy, as the hon. member says. The political party opposite that governs us displays the most political cynicism in the history of this country. I for one am totally convinced that this is the only reason this kind of an amendment will be introduced at the committee stage.
One might ask why we are opposed. I am not going to repeat a lot of the points that have been so ably made by the Conservative spokesman but I do intend to repeat several, and add a couple of others. First let me point out one thing that I think distinguishes us from the Conservative party. Right from the outset of the government's anti-inflation program members of the NDP have said there are certain aspects of government spending that ought not to be cut. We have said it is irresponsible politics in Canada to suggest that across the board cuts in government spending are desirable.
As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) has said on various occasions in the House of Commons, civilization costs money. One essential aspect of civilization in Canada in 1975 surely is the provision of fully adequate medical and hospital services for Canadians in whatever part of the country they may live. Therefore, we reject this kind of categorical and arbitrary imposition of ceilings on medicare spending-14.5 per cent in the period 1976-77 and 12 per cent in 1977-78. We resent it because although it is not certain it will occur there is at
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least a very real possibility that necessary medical spending in those years will exceed those limits.
The New Democratic Party for one says that if it costs money to provide needed medical services we should spend the money and cut back in other less essential areas. That is an overriding concern and an overriding commitment of the New Democratic Party. We believe this country must allocate whatever funds are necessary to achieve and maintain fully adequate health services from one coast to the other.
Second, we believe that medical services, as with services in certain other essential areas, should be provided on a federal-provincial cost-sharing basis. We believe that, because to us it is essential with such programs to ensure that the poorest parts of Canada have health services just as good and at just as high a level as the richest parts of Canada. That is the reason why the federal cost-sharing approach to medical services is absolutely essential.
Beyond these basic points, what else should be said at this time? I shall not do what the minister himself did, which was simply to rehash a speech made a year ago. I wish to deal with two, three or four essential aspects of the cost of medical services and point out for the House, and indirectly for the people of the country, that we believe an approach to spending in medical services will involve some short-run increases in expenditures which, in the long run, will provide a healthier people but also in the long run a reduction in real cost to the economy.
We will suggest some rearrangement of medical spending that could provide real benefits in terms of financial requirements at both the federal and provincial levels. First of all, it is our view that it makes sense to increase medical spending at all levels in Canada in the preventive medical field.
For us it makes neither human nor economic sense to let a man work in conditions where he is confronted, for example, with asbestos fibres which he inhales, and as a result of this contracts cancer which means that then he must go through the cruel and certainly painful and costly surgical operation which results. In such a case at that stage in the man's life we try to deal with cancer when, as an alternative, as a country, we could have been spending more money to establish community clinics in parts of our country where such work is undertaken. In this way we could have developed cures that would be less costly and more humane. We should of course eventually remove the pollution from the air which is the very cause of this kind of cancer.
I repeat that to deal with that kind of a situation now, an increase in expenditures would be involved. We say that, but we think it is a necessary increase in expenditures the long run benefits of which would result in lower medical care costs over-all because it would eliminate costly surgery down the road and would of course produce a healthier working population.
There is, for example, in the minister's own province very imaginative and constructive use of community clinics. I had drawn to my attention not long ago a good example of the result of the opening of community clinics in the minister's province in the town of St. Gabriel de
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Brandon, southeast of Montreal. A community clinic was set up in this area.
Children who had been swimming in that community had been repeatedly going to doctors because of a kind of skin infection. They had been treated over and over again every three months or so. This had been going on in many sequences of three-month periods. Because this clinic had been set up with authority to carry on investigative work in the medical field it was discovered that because of the condition of the water supply the children had become infected.
Because the clinic had authority to take corrective action the company responsible was obligated to stop polluting the water. In this way the recurrence of the infection was stopped and further costs for medical services were eliminated. The point is a rather obvious but important one. Because of the existence of a community clinic in the town of St. Gabriel de Brandon the long-run cost for medical services was actually reduced because it was possible to get at the source of the medical problem and head it off before it recurred. Surely this is imaginative and positive spending. I repeat that it involves some increases now for real financial and human gains down the road.
Another suggestion we make is that we can get away from spending so much money on general hospitals. There could be a curtailment of the large expenditures we now have in respect of general hospitals which, according to the latest figures I have, involve an expenditure of about $200 a day per bed. The cost probably has increased somewhat since the figures I have were released.
Alternative facilities which would be fully adequate for most of the present hospitalization requirements could be built. These could be operated at a cost of somewhere between $42 and $52 per bed per day. The point once again is that if we were to achieve this it would not mean an over-all cut-back in spending for medical purposes, but in fact would mean an increase for the purpose of building these alternative facilities. The net result, however, not this year or next year but a few years down the road, would be a substantial reduction in the over-all cost of hospitalization.
Once again the obvious point to me, although it apparently is not obvious to the government or necessarily to the people of Canada, is that a cut-back in expenditures now does not mean that there will be necessarily a long-range saving in economic terms to the community. It is just the opposite; if you do not spend on what is needed now, with careful selection of increased spending in certain areas such as alternative hospital facilities, substantial long range savings can be achieved.
Another area of spending which will involve real savings down the road in terms of economic cost and in terms of human lives is in the medical research field. The hon. member for Athabasca very ably documented the case for increasing spending on medical research, not cutting it back as the government is shamelessly doing at this time.
Another illustration of real savings is in the paramedical field. Instead of relying so heavily on the use of general practitioners, a lot of work should be done in all provinces, including those with NDP governments, on extending the
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use of paramedical personnel into areas which are currently the exclusive domain of general practitioners, who are both much more costly to train and more costly to maintain in terms of incomes than are paramedical personnel with less training.
Another way of ultimately saving in medical expenses that the government could have taken within federal jurisdiction, either on its own or in co-operation with the provinces, is in the pharmacare area. By moving decisively into pharmacare, into controlling the drug industry in Canada, either by setting up a competitive national company to produce the necessary drugs or by some other indirect means of controlling the prices of drugs, the government could take decisive steps which would result in long range savings in the drug area.
Finally, on the whole general question of savings in medicare costs I want to emphasize the point that has already been made, that by putting arbitrary ceilings on the federal government's contributions, especially for the next two years, no saving can really be achieved in the economy of Canada in terms of medicare costs. All that will be saved is in the federal share of the total cost to the public. The costs will be paid but they will be paid for by the provinces, fully half of which are not in a good position to pay them. That is not a sensible approach to cost saving that the minister is taking.
If the minister really wanted to achieve savings, he should have fulfilled his obligation and worked out with the provinces, on a mutually agreeable basis, definite approaches to very specific programs that could lead to short run and long range cuts in costs. I repeat that the best place where the minister could go to find out what should be done in terms of specifics would be the provinces themselves. As he knows, the Science Council of Canada has pointed out that the province of Saskatchewan, for example, has the best record in the country of controlling costs for medicare services, and not only Saskatchewan but other provinces are just as concerned as the federal government about saving money.
I would remind the minister that this is a cost sharing program. The federal government has no more profound an interest in saving in terms of medicare expenditures than do the provinces, but the provinces which are directly involved in providing the service also know where cuts should be made in order to save.
I remind the minister of his own commitment. If he is really interested in cutting back unnecessary spending, and if he would like to find out where new expenditures could be made that will lead to long range savings in medicare costs, he can go to no better a source in this country than the provincial ministers of health.
I want to say why we as a party are so concerned about this approach. It is because the inevitable result of the passage of this bill, assuming that the costs go beyond the ceilings permitted in the legislation for the federal government to pay its share, will be that the poorer parts of our country will certainly suffer in terms of medicare expenditures. They will suffer in a number of ways; either abhorrent deterrent fees will be increased, or a cut back in medical services will be introduced, or property taxes will be increased, or sales taxes will be increased in those
(Mr. Broadbent.]
provinces to make up for the money that the federal government should be paying for those programs.
We are so deeply opposed to what the government is doing because one of the few areas of real concern to the people of Canada to which the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) indicated he might be committed in 1968 was regional inequality, to dealing with it, hopefully reducing it and ultimately removing it, but the inevitable result of this program is to increase inequalities between regions in Canada. We say that health service is the wrong field to do that.
A Canadian should be able to take health services for granted. Whether he lives in Vancouver, in a wealthy province such as B.C., or in St. John's in a poor province, he should feel fully confident as a Canadian that he will have equally available to him the best medical services in this country. What this bill does-I do not care what the minister says-is to make that possibility more remote. What it will almost certainly mean is that the poorer provinces will do two things: they will have to cut back on the services that are necessary, and simultaneously they will have to increase taxes paid by their citizens.
We think that that kind of action is totally abhorrent at this point in Canadian history both because health care is an area of service where we should have a uniformly high standard right across Canada and because it increases the general sense and feeling of inequality in our country at a time when a feeling of national unity across our land is so essential to the whole nation.
If there is any way in which we will get a profound sense of unity it will be because of the subjective feelings of Canadians in all parts of the land that there really is equality in terms of their life expectations. Our party thinks on this issue that the Liberal government is clearly moving in the wrong direction and that instead of increasing the sense of equality and the sense of well-being, founded in part on the notion of universal health standards, it is taking us a step backward.


Mr.   C.-A. Gauthier@Roberval: Madam Speaker, I wish to take a few minutes to answer the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
When I looked at this bill a few minutes ago, I wondered what the minister would say concerning this four-page bill amending the Medical Care Act to limit the annual increase in the per capita cost of insured services granted pursuant to medical care insurance plans. It deals with the limitation of costs for 1976-77 and for 1977-78. I thought that it was only an anti-inflation bill to limit the cost of all health services. But, after its presentation by the minister, I realized that this bill that seemed small had many surprises in store. After the committee stage the subject matter will probably be much more heavy.
Of course, the minister started by giving glory to his party and mentioned all the good things the Liberal party did in the field of social services. But he had to go back to 1958 to realize that the federal-provincial hospitalization plan dated from that time. It is in 1958 that these federal-provincial agreements were made concerning hospitalization services, while we obtained, I think, partial medical care only in 1968. A federal-provincial agreement was then
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planned concerning the hospitalization program. Medical care was supposed to be included in that project, but we had to wait 10 years before it was granted to taxpayers.
According to the minister, all hospitalization costs are paid. I agree with him on that point. But at what price? I think that we shall have to study the matter carefully at the committee stage and get some bills from the provinces to know what is the cost of hospitalization in each of them. In the province of Quebec, as I come from that province, a hospital bed costs $90 a day, which, I think is an astronomical figure considering the services given. One may praise our services and when the minister said earlier that we had the best hospital care plan in the world, I think he forgot on purpose to add that our services were not the best in the world.
In my opinion, the present weakness of our hospital care system is that services offered are not consistent with the cost assumed by taxpayers. No matter how much we criticize the services provided in the past, today's services can in no way be compared to those offered 25 years ago, Madam Speaker. We have the worst hospital services ever provided as far as admission is concerned. Nowadays, before being admitted to hospital, you must wait a couple of months. However, we are told that we offer wonderful services to everybody.


An hon. Member:: Everybody is sick.


Mr. Gauthier (Roberval):: I have known some people who were to undergo serious heart operations and had to wait for three months before being admitted to hospital. And then they come and praise our services! It often happens that people die before being admitted, and in this particular case, the woman did die.
I must say I am quite knowledgeable in this area, since I have been providing an ambulance service for forty years. I know all the hospitals in the province of Quebec, since I go as far as Montreal, Quebec City, Chicoutimi and many other places. Let no one come and tell me that it costs a lot of money. I quite agree, and everyone knows that the cost is high, but the services provided fail to match the cost. Perhaps they will say this is due to inflation. I suggest it is rather due to lack of control, defective administration, rejection of responsibilities, the same as in all other endeavours. With this public ownership system, no one is ever responsible. The only responsibility is to get the highest wages possible and provide the least services in return. This is the only responsibility involved.
I think this should be discussed in committee.
I am very pleased that this bill is to be referred to the committee where we can discuss it and try to make amendments.
We seem to be talking only about restrictions and spending cuts in this bill. I would rather have a bill which would ensure people the services they want and are entitled to since they are paying for them. It is no use saying they are free, that hospital care does not cost anything. Workers know better. They can tell by the deductions on their pay cheque stubs that those services are not free. We are paying twice the value of the services we get today.
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The Minister said he intended to keep increases down to 10, 12 and 13 per cent during 1976-77. I hope he does reach that goal but I am afraid he will limit only his payments to the provinces. Maybe those payments will be kept down, but the federal government after collecting all the taxes, as it is doing now, will return whatever it feels like. The decision will be the governement's, be it maybe 8, 10 or 12 per cent.
Let us not forget that the provinces are responsible for hospital services and will still have to pay the difference. If the tax rate is 20 or 25 per cent, the federal government will have no part in it, but the provinces will have to make up the difference in order to provide adequate service. As always, the government will pocket the money and the provinces will have to foot the bill.
The meaning of the 12 per cent limit must be fully grasped. In committee as in this House, we are happy to hear of spending limitations, but the understanding with the provinces must be honoured. If that understanding cannot be honoured, then we must do what is needed, we must give the provinces back their taxing rights in order that they administer medicare themselves. This way they will not have to keep on begging the federal government to pay this or that, an expensive process because with duplication of departments we pay double costs. We have to pay double price for the administration. If that is the majority's will, let us honour the agreements. And above all, there must be agreement between the parties involved. Because it is getting to be a one-way proposition. The federal government submits proposals to the provinces, but before they can be discussed with the provinces they introduce legislation. And so with majority government rule the provinces are faced with the choice of either accepting or having nothing. That is the kind of consultation we get from this government.
I submit the provinces are responsible for the citizen's health. They should tell the federal government what to do, instead of the latter imposing its will upon them. The minister boasts of our health care. He says it is better than the American and the British systems. He refers to decreasing infant mortality rate, that has been at the 1.5 per cent level these last years. But he forgets to mention that the birth rate also is now down to 1.4 per cent. In Canada, the figure is 14 per 1,000, and in French Canada, 12 per 1,000 of population. It seems that we are always the winners in one way or the other. With 12 per 1,000, there cannot be more babies who die than are born. We cannot boast too much about it and it is better not to mention it at all, especially to those of us who come from the province of Quebec, because we are a little ashamed of it. In the province of Quebec, we will soon be replaced by the Chinese and the Japanese. Anyway, with such a birth rate, we cannot do more here, I quite agree with my friends on the other side, we are doing our best.
The minister mentioned the increased number of physicians. In the last few years, the number of doctors has increased but I want to point out to the minister that this increase was not due to the number of students coming out of university but to immigration. We have to import doctors because our students cannot enter university, since the key is in the hands of the college of physicians. Today,

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there is a shortage of doctors. The minister said earlier that he was worried about a surplus of physicians, when actually there is a shortage. In the province of Quebec, we need
2,000	more doctors and yet our students are kept out of university. That is why we have to bring in immigrants, so that we may receive medical care from foreigners. I do not mind it, personally, I have nothing against them, but I would much rather see our French-Canadian students enter university freely. This is the one area in the province of Quebec where the situation is most dramatic.
A while ago the minister said: In the past, in 1968, there was one doctor for every 769 inhabitants, and today, there is one doctor for every 586 Canadians. I wonder where he gets those figures? In our areas with 6,000 people, we have two general practitioners. It is not surprising that a patient who needs to see a doctor must wait one or two weeks. But these doctors do their best. They are alone for 6,000 people. How can they do their job satisfactorily? The minister said earlier: There is some fear that there are too many doctors. I do not know whether he got that fear from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, but I think that they are afraid that there will be too many doctors because this would affect their salary. However, a greater number of doctors would be much more useful to the population. In my area, I can assure you that we could easily use four doctors instead of two and that they would earn a good living of $60,000 a year. But no, we are stuck. That is the problem. People say: That happens in the country, in rural areas; all the surgeons and specialists stay in the few large centres that we have in Quebec. I can see that the figures are distorted because they include all the specialists in the large centres. But if we consider only the doctors who serve the population, we can see that we need 2,000 more doctors in Quebec. Each year, I have seen with my own eyes students who dreamt of a medical career. They had grades of 90 and 92 per cent, but were rejected. Why? I do not dare speculate here. But let us see. It is the worst closed shop ever. In our areas where 92 per cent of the population is French-Canadian, we are treated by foreign doctors because our own people have not been able to enter this closed shop.
I believe that we must point this out. The College of Physicians and Surgeons seems to think that we are ignoramuses. That we cannot realize what is going on. The whole population has been aware of it for a long time and people know why they cannot see a doctor when necessary. This is why I was surprised to hear a while ago the minister say that there will probably be too many doctors in a few years. No.
I merely say to the minister: Do not be afraid, open the door, open the universities, and if you do not have enough universities, open the CEGEPs which are standing idle, which are half-empty, and start medical classes in there. That is a solution.
Let nobody tell me that we lack facilities. When in our areas CEGEPs and composite schools are half-empty and will be only one-third full within five years, let nobody tell me that we spend too many millions. Colleges with 30 or 35 classrooms are closed down and they are handed over for a nominal price to the municipalities. Don't you think this is too much? That is administration. That is why I said earlier that what is wrong is overadministration and bad

administration. We let the technocrats do as they please. And all they think about is to be overpaid for soft jobs, and then everything is fine. And as elected members of Parliament, we have nothing to say, we must obey the orders of technocrats. It requires less effort on its part if it lets all those technocrats do as they please and stays put. It only has to sign at the bottom of the letter but the real responsible people are still members of Parliament. And I think we fail in our duty by creating here through technocrats an irresponsible administration because members on the government side shirk their responsibilities, they pass them on to technocrats. It is true, some of your friends told me, they complained about that. There is a revolution in Quebec to have members of Parliament resume their jobs, their positions. Indeed, 250 Liberals in Quebec sat so the member of Parliament would resume his functions.
We travel through our ridings and know their needs street by street, parish by parish. And who comes up to manage all that, a technocrat who lives in Quebec City or Montreal who never understood what it was all about. And a legislation is prepared to try to improve health in Canada as in the province of Quebec, which is going to be discussed for a while. At present, everything is probably done, all the arrangements are probably made at the technocratic level, and that is going to be presented to the committee. Vote for, vote against, period. The majority is there. Amendments like that we can pass, and the more we do the worse the hospital service will be.
Now, to comfort us at the end, the minister tells us about the fund freeze in medical research. If there is something I am interested in it is medical research. I heard about the freeze, when all searchers live like beggars. Yet we need searchers. Indeed, I was speaking to two or three doctors who told me we would need three times more medical research here in Canada, and the funds for medical research just got frozen. What fear there is to give a little million dollars to try and find something new in medicine. And the funds are frozen for this year. Everything that is urgent gets frozen and all sorts of increases for insignificant things are allowed.
Finally, the minister tells us that he will undertake a fight. I noticed that when this bill is considered reforms or amendments will be examined with respect to the use of tobacco. I think it is time to do it, and the use of alcohol and drugs should also be added. I remember that, those past years, grants have been given to tobacco growers. How things change. A few years ago, Parliament voted grants for tobacco growers. Now, it is to be grants to control the use of tobacco. It has to be done, as it is in the case of alcohol, drugs and road safety. For weeks now, we have heard about seat belts; people think it is the answer to all problems. Of course, it is not.
The first problem to solve is, I think, the control of alcoholism, because one must not forget that 80 per cent of traffic accidents, and I have seen pretty bad one, are related to overdrinking. See what is happening: instead of talking about alcohol, or taking drastic measures, we talk about seat belts. I will tell you something, when a man is drunk, whether his seat belt is fastened or not, he will die in his car. Mind you, even if he is wearing his seat belt, he will die in his car. But this man who had too much to
January 28, 1976

drink-and this can happen to anybody-should have been warned against driving.
Let us see now what goes on. Go and watch people leaving night clubs and beer parlors late at night: 50 per cent of the drivers cannot walk straight and get behind the wheel, and no policeman is watching. There should be a policeman to tell them: "My friend, you are too drunk, you cannot drive in your condition, better leave your car and walk home." That should be the first thing to do. But you never see a policeman as people come out of night clubs and beer parlors. Why? Because that would be bad for the provincial liquor business. You have to realize that the provincial liquor business, the provincial Liquor Corporation, has to make money. So this chap is allowed to kill himself. You know that he is drunk, but you let him drive his car and, with this new reform, instead of being warned against driving, he will be fastened to his seat. He is going to be tied to his seat. As long as he has fastened his seat belt, he will have the right to go and kill himself. But if he has not, he will lose his insurance. If he gets killed without his seat belt, his insurance will not pay. That is the inconsistency in the reforms proposed.
We must absolutely stop talking about the seat belt. First of all, I do not believe in it, because I say that in 50 per cent of the cases, the seat belt may save your life, but in the other 50 per cent, it may be the cause of your death. It is strange, but we have not heard of such cases often. If a car is dumped into a river, and if its passengers all have their seat belts fastened, they will all die like rats. In 50 per cent of collisions, the air pressure causes passengers to be propelled out of the car. If they stay inside, however, the fire will start and they will be trapped inside. I say: let us begin at the beginning. Everybody admits that 80 per cent of car accidents are caused by alcohol. Let us make a legislation that will prevent that. As for high speed, it does not depend only on drivers, Madam Speaker. Car manufacturers are allowed to build racing cars that can do 150 miles an hour. Why is that, when the speed limit is 70, even on our super highways. These cars should be locked at 70 miles an hour. Why allow car manufacturers to make racing cars that can do 150 miles an hour, when such speed is illegal? So, nobody would expect to travel at such speed. It is better to cure the problem at the root instead of trying to alleviate it. But in the end, people try to explain away accidents. They say: he was killed for such and such reason probably because he did not have a safety belt which was probably not true. The thing is to take due precautions beforehand. Safety should start when a car is built. We should impose our conditions on the manufacturers. I submit this would be much more worthwhile than the minor reforms the minister proposed this afternoon.
Now, he referred to sports and sports promotion. I do not know exactly if the minister only wants to promote sports on the international level, as far as international competitions are concerned, but I urge him once again to think about our local and regional athletes. This is where he should start, at the beginning. How hard it is to get a few dollars for our local athletes! And even then, programs would still be needed so that our young people may improve their performance.
But no; grants will be given in every sphere related to international competition, but never will city or municipal
Medical Care
projects be accepted to help train local and regional athletes.
I do hope this matter of athletics will be discussed by the committee, so that help may be given to athletes from the bottom up, to encourage our own athletes, those who compete here, at home, in our province or elsewhere in Canada, before they go competing abroad.
I believe, Madam Speaker, I have already pointed this out to the hon. members in this House. I do hope this bill will not deal merely with the question of reducing costs, but also with the question of the services to the public, so that people will get better services, live in greater security in our area, and above all, live in a state of health that can be improved through the hospital centres that Canada like the province of Quebec can afford, considering the high cost of all such services. We pay enough taxes to have top quality hospital services, as the minister mentioned in his speech. But because of poor administration, a lack of supervision on the part of the departments, we live in the difficult conditions I have just described. I do hope this bill will improve the situation to some extent.


Mr. Gus Mitges (Grey-Simcoe):: Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to take part in this debate on Bill C-68. This afternoon the minister extolled the virtues of the health care program in Canada, describing it as among the best in the world. I do not dispute this. However, the same program is now in peril of losing its excellence and faces considerable downgrading to the detriment of the health of citizens from one end of Canada to the other. The tool the government is using to accomplish this is the bill now before us. If the measure is passed as introduced it will seriously undermine the quality of health care throughout our country.
I am not questioning the need to try to reduce costs and control spending especially now when restraint should be the number one priority if we ever hope to make any progress in containing the fires of inflation. What I am questioning is the absence of any prior consultation with the provinces in an effort to achieve economies in health care. It was done unilaterally by the federal government contrary to the recommendations of a 1969 task force report which recommended that consultation should take place between federal and provincial governments before any monetary changes in the program were considered.
To my mind, Madam Speaker, when one partner is not aware of what the other partner intends to do it cannot help but sow the seeds of confrontation. And confrontation is what the federal government is facing today as a result of its unilateral action. I feel sure this situation could have been avoided had the federal government chosen to embark on prior consultation with the provinces in an effort to resolve this problem in a businesslike and amicable way as between equal partners.
A further recommendation in the 1969 task force report on the cost of health services in Canada stated that ways must be found to restrain the growth of cost increases through better operation of the health structure now in existence. I have no quarrel with that recommendation. It is my opinion that whether in the running of a business, a

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factory, or a home there will always be found, if one tries hard enough, ways to reduce costs and overhead expenses by eliminating waste, unnecessary frills and so on, without necessarily reducing the quality of service in the business field or the quality of life in the home. This is also true of a number of government programs presently in existence. Many of these should be eliminated entirely. Others in connection with which prudent spending of the taxpayer's dollars is only faintly evident or non-existent should be drastically curtailed.
On the other hand, there are programs which are commendable and from which the taxpayer receives his money's worth. Such a program is the medicare program, and that is why it is baffling to me to understand the government's decision to establish arbitrarily spending ceilings in relation to a scheme which has not demonstrated runaway cost increases to the extent other federally-sponsored projects have done.
Government spokesmen have maintained that health costs have risen by almost 20 per cent over the past year. I do not quarrel with this figure, but what the government fails to mention is that almost all the increase referred to is the direct result of escalating expenditures in hospitals, and not medical care generally. In the fiscal years 1972-73 and 1973-74 the increase in medical costs amounted only to 9.2 per cent and 7.2 per cent respectively; costs to the federal government have not been increasing at a greater rate than the national income.
Again, I ask why the central government has arbitrarily placed spending ceilings on a program which has not demonstrated the runaway cost increases of other federally sponsored programs? The answer lies in the fact that between 70 and 80 per cent of the total cost of medical care arises from salaries and wages. During a period of inflation such as we are now experiencing this means that an
increase in wages of 20 per cent will result in an increase in total budgetary outlay of 14 per cent to 16 per cent. By imposing ceilings the federal government is ensuring that it will not have to pay medical expenses arising from its inability to control inflation.
Bill C-68, if passed, will limit the federal cost-sharing contribution to medicare to an increase of 13 per cent in 1976-77, 10.5 per cent in 1977-78, and a figure thereafter to be determined in a way not yet established. There is no question in my mind that the imposition of these ceilings will markedly affect the health care delivery system. The federal government insists that if costs should rise above these figures it will be the responsibility of each province to pick up the tab for the difference. Consequently three situations could potentially arise: (1) provincial revenues would be drained, and other programs or priorities would have to be deferred indefinitely to meet the increased costs; (2) where applicable, that is, in British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, and the Yukon Territory, premiums most likely would have to be increased in order to offset high provincial expenditures; (3) if the provinces cannot meet the extra costs, medical services will have to be reduced.
Therefore, while Bill C-68 basically follows the recommendation of the 1969 task force concerning the need to face the situation caused by rising health costs, should the government's exercise in clairvoyance fail to justify itself, Canadians will be faced with two alternatives-reduced health care services or increased taxes, may I call it six o'clock?


Mr. McKinley:: On a point of order, Madam Speaker I wonder whether the acting house leader on the government side could confirm that we shall be discussing this legislation tomorrow and, possibly, on Friday.


Marc Lalonde: Yes, Madam Speaker.
At 6.01 p.m. the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to Standing Order.

Thursday, January 29, 1976