1975-10-14

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is evident that a number of announcements are required to be made at the resumption of this session. Some special proceedings have been discussed and possibly will be agreed to; all of which will take some time. We should address our attention, I think, after the expiry of these rather special announcements to the preservation of an appropriate question period which, pursuant to the special order under which we continue to operate, would expire at three o'clock. Obviously, that would deprive members of their right to ask questions, particularly on this of all days. Therefore, I suggest that we take at a proper pace the rather special proceedings that may intervene between now and the commencement of the question period, and seek at that time a consensus whether we should safeguard 40 or 45 minutes for questions at that time.
May I begin by calling to the attention of the House two resignations which I have received in due form from former hon. members. The first is from the Hon. Gerard Pelletier, the former member for the electoral district of Hochelaga. The second is from Mr. Walter Carter, the former hon. member for St. John's West. Both resignations have been received in due form and are in order.


RESIGNATION OF DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
Mr. Speaker:: I have also received a resignation from the Deputy Chairman of Committees, the hon. member for Thunder Bay (Mr. Penner). I might say at this time that in his first year in this office it was an honour for all of us associated with the Chair and the Clerks at the table to have the assistance and able counsel of Mr. Penner in that role. We regret to see him go.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: I want to wish him well in his new career. We have some information as to the nominee for his replacement which will evidently take place later in the day. We anticipate with the same warm feeling and joy the replacement by that hon. member, who I suppose I should refrain from mentioning until it becomes an official fact.


RETIREMENT OF CLERK ASSISTANT
Mr. Speaker:: Hon. members will notice, for the first time, probably, in the experience if not of all hon. members of the House, then of one or two, the absence from the table of Mr. Gordon Dubroy. Mr. Dubroy has been Clerk Assistant to this House and has served in other capacities with a quality that is so extraordinary as to escape adequate description by me. The fact that he is not here is the result of his retirement last spring. When I was first elected to this position he was ready then to retire, but I begged him to stay on because I valued his counsel and advice. Experience has taught me that persuading him to stay was one of the most important and salutary moves I ever could have made.
Mr. Dubroy finally prevailed upon us, in the summer, to accept his resignation and it was time for his retirement to begin. I wish all hon. members to know that I invited Mr. Dubroy to be here today at the table in order to hear not only my tribute but, I am sure, the tributes that will be expressed to him by representatives of all parties in the House. His absence from the House is certainly not due to his unwillingness to accept my invitation but, unfortunately, because he is at present in hospital in Ottawa, where this morning he underwent rather serious surgery. We are awaiting reports from the hospital but, regretfully, I cannot be optimistic at this time. When further news is available, I will certainly pass it along to hon. members.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: We find ourselves blessed with the replacement for Mr. Dubroy in the person of Mr. Charles Beverley Koester, the former Clerk of the legislature of Saskatchewan. The Privy Council has blessed us with a man of experience and skill.
I would not want to undertake to describe the qualifications that would be required to fill the post that has been left vacant by Mr. Dubroy, but certainly it is our early indication that Mr. Koester possesses all of those qualifications. I know all hon. members would want to wish him well in that distinguished position.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


APPOINTMENT OF DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE SERVICES
Mr. Speaker:: I have one final piece of information to transmit to hon. members, that is, the appointment of Mr. R. E. Thomas as Director of Legislative Services, a service upon which all hon. members depend so heavily. Mr. Thomas has served in various capacities leading to his appointment. He has been a faithful servant of the House of Commons and we are confident that his appointment as Director of Legislative Services is a wise one. I am sure all

October 14, 1975
Anti-inflation
hon. members would want to congratulate him upon that appointment.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Speaker:: I understand that in respect of the announcement by the Prime Minister last evening there have been discussions about the subject matter for debate this day and that the President of the Privy Council may have some remarks to make in that respect.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (President of the Privy Council):: Mr. Speaker, in order to provide for a special debate on the government's anti-inflation program today, I suggest the House might like to make an order to permit the Minister of Finance to table now the white paper entitled "Attack on Inflation".


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


An hon. Member:: How about "wrestling with
inflation"?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, it is quite clear that members of the House are very anxious to have such a debate today. My suggestion is that the Minister of Finance should be given the authority to table his white paper now, so that we would have an opportunity of discussing it some time this afternoon. In order to provide for that debate, I also suggest that an order be made in the following terms:
That when the orders of the day are reached this day, a minister of the Crown shall move the adjournment of the House in order to debate the white paper entitled "Attack on Inflation" tabled this day, and that the said motion shall be deemed to have been adopted at 10 p.m.


Mr. Nowlan:: What is the name of the minister-Rip van Winkle?


Mr. Speaker:: The first matter is that the Minister of Finance shall have leave to table the white paper, and the second is the order proposed by the President of the Privy Council. Is this agreed to?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I hope the same unanimity continues throughout my term of office.


An hon. Member:: Don't count on it.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I would like to lay on the
table of the House, in both official languages, the white paper on the subject of inflation.


TRIBUTES ON FORTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF ELECTION OF MR. T. C. DOUGLAS
Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence, and before we begin to discuss matters which might reveal some slight differences of opinion among hon. members, I want to draw attention to a remarkable anniversary of a remarkable man, a man whose character and achievements elicit unanimous respect and universal admiration. It was on October 14, 1935-40 years ago today-that the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Douglas) was first elected to this House.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: It is astonishing to realize that a man so young in spirit and a man whose ideas and priorities are so relevant to today and tomorrow took his seat in this House before any of the rest of us were here and before many of the rest of us were born.


An hon. Member:: Not you.


An hon. Member:: Oh, oh!


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: It is even more astonishing to realize that a man of such phenomenal energy will have 71 candles on the cake when he celebrates his birthday next Monday.

The respect which the hon. member enjoys in the House is not only ascribable to his vitality, his age, but is especially due to his distinguished contribution to federal politics and to the valuable services which he has rendered and which he continues to render to his country.
Throughout his long career as churchman, Member of Parliament, premier of Saskatchewan during 17 years and leader of the New Democratic Party, he has worked with untiring eagerness to see Canada achieve the objectives which he had set for himself on reaching adulthood, namely independence and national unity, civil liberties and equality of opportunities and above all social justice.

Over the years he has known moments of triumph, but never of despair; he has heard criticisms of his policies, but never of his integrity. His experience of the hunger, poverty and unemployment of the depression years on the prairies has left a permanent mark on his soul and has made him a lifelong man of the people. He has pleaded the cause of the common man from one end of Canada to the other, and left behind in each community he has visited a lasting impression of warmth, compassion, wit and tireless energy. All of us in this House know him as a skilful and formidable speaker, a man who always keeps his word, a man who is willing to forget sharp words spoken in the
October 14, 1975

heat of debate even though he seems incapable of forgetting any fact he ever learned.
In the name of everyone on this side of the House, I want to salute a man whose presence here continues to earn for parliament the respect of Canadians everywhere.


Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to join the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau)-at least for this occasion today-on behalf of myself and my party in paying tribute to the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Douglas).
I think the first thing that should be noticed about the hon. gentleman and his life is that he was an immigrant. I do not know just what effect this is going to have upon the attitudes of various people in Canada toward future immigration policy. The second thing is that I understand he was an amateur boxing champion, which no doubt explains why he is so familiar with Murphy's law. I understand that an antagonistic voter once tried to ridicule the hon. gentleman by saying that Mr. Douglas was so small he could eat him, and the hon. gentleman replied, "If you ate me, you would have more brains in your stomach than in your head."


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: As the Prime Minister has outlined, his public career has been very long, very honourable and very distinguished. I have known him for quite a long time. I knew him first when he was premier of the province of Saskatchewan and I was premier of an even greater province.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: The hon. gentleman and I have not always agreed, but I want to say that he exemplifies an extraordinarily rare combination of generosity, of spirit, of good humour, of tenacity and courage, not to mention eloquence. He has given a great deal to this parliament, to the legislature of Saskatchewan and to our country. I respect him; I like him. I congratulate him for his record of years of public service. Personally, and on behalf of my party colleagues, I wish him many years of health, happiness and continued controversy.


Mr. Real Caouette (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I wish to join the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) in extending our wishes to the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Douglas). The hon. member was for many years the premier of Saskatchewan. Indeed, he led the CCF party to power in that province, thus forming the first CCF government in Canada.
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister referred to October 1935. That year, William Aberhart was elected under the banner of Social Credit. A few months later, the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands was a federal candidate in Saskatchewan. The member was then well known in the west. He was therefore elected in 1935. I was told that he used to drive a 1933 or 1934 car on which could be read on one side: Vote CCF and on the other: Vote Social Credit. He was therefore the real representative of two political parties when he was elected for the first time
Mr. T. C. Douglas
in 1935. And at that time he so attracted the attention of the people-it is to be noted-that he even attracted not only the sympathy and friendship, but also the conviction of the present Prime Minister. At that time, the Prime Minister was strongly in favour of the CCF party. Therefore, this means that the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Douglas) has commanded the respect of a number of people who shared his convictions.
In any event, Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to include the hon. member among my good friends. He is devoted and he has earned the sympathy not only of the members of his own political party, but also the sympathy of others who appreciate him as a man. For instance, in Ponteix, Saskatchewan, where all my relations on my maternal side have been living since 1909-all were authentic Liberals-when Tommy Douglas canvassed in an election in Saskatchewan, and became minister, we heard them say: We are not CCFers but we cannot vote against Tommy. That is how people voted for Tommy and that is how he attracted the sympathy and friendship of the whole population of his province and of Canada.
Therefore, I join with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Official Opposition to wish him a happy anniversary next Monday. He is seventy-one and yet he does not look a day older than fifty. This means he is in perfect physical form. Once again, I wish him many more years during which he can continue to devote himself to the whole population. Obviously, the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands is an asset for the House of Commons. He is a man who sets a good example and those who follow him in the field of work and courage are not going wrong. In the name of my colleagues and in my own name, I extend every good wish to the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands. May he continue to devote his time and energy for the good of all Canadians.


Mr. Edward Broadbent (Oshawa-Whitby):: Mr. Speaker, as I belong to the same political family as the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Douglas), it would be inappropriate for me now to devote a number of words praising the hon. member that would otherwise, in different circumstances, be appropriate. I say this especially when the hon. member's integrity, his commitment to principle, his debating skill, and above all, perhaps, his sense of humour have been so well alluded to by the leaders of the other political parties in this House. However, as I am the only one of those who have spoken so far who was not born when the hon. member was first elected 40 years ago-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: -I wish to say, in all seriousness, that the specific detail for which people of my generation will most remember the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, both in terms of his contribution to this House and as premier of the province of Saskatchewan, is that more than any other Canadian of his generation he fought the very difficult, very trying battle of achieving for Canadians universal medical and hospital care throughout the land.

October 14, 1975
Mr. T. C. Douglas


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: Not only Canadians of my generation who were watching him then, often as young boys or girls, or certainly as young men and women, but future historians who write the full biography of Tommy Douglas will single that out as his most notable and worth-while contribution to the people of our country wherever they live.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, may I through you express my sincere thanks to the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stanfield), the leader of the Social Credit party, the hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette), and my own leader, the hon. member for Oshawa-Whitby (Mr. Broadbent), for the very nice things they have said and for their felicitations to me on this, the fortieth anniversary of my having been elected to the House of Commons. I must confess that I have been trying to suppress the fact that I came to this House five years before the right hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Die-fenbaker) and seven years before the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) because I did not want to destroy the common concept that these two distinguished members were here when the place started.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I must confess that I am overwhelmed by the fulsome praise that has been lavished upon me by the leaders of the various political parties, and I want to say that I have had some difficulty in recognizing myself: I know many people across Canada will have even greater difficulty recognizing these descriptions of me. As a matter of fact, I have often thought that my whole political life-my whole life, as a matter of fact-could be summed up in the words "printer, preacher, politician, premier, or the descent of man."


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On
October 14, 1935, I was elected to this chamber as a private member. Forty years later, I am still a private member. My only consolation is that I am holding my own.
When I entered public life, I tried to fix one principle in mind; that is, that I would never allow my political differences to interfere with my personal friendships. I can honestly say this afternoon that I have had friends, and some of them close personal friends, in all the political parties and that I have friends in all parts of this chamber. Therefore, I feel something like the old man who, when he was asked how it was that he did not have an enemy in the world, said, "It is very simple; I outlived the bastards."


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It is
always the tendency for men and women, as they grow older, to glorify the past and to belittle the present. However, I can say with complete sincerity that while the House of Commons in the second half of the 1930s had in it

some political giants, I think the House of Commons today is more dynamic, more lively. We have a better committees' system. We have a better rapport with the constituencies, thanks to the constituency offices and sending out of household mail. I think there is now a better understanding between the people and the elected members than probably at any other time in my political experience.
I look back on four decades of public life, some 22 years in this House and almost 18 years in the legislature of Saskatchewan, and I am convinced more than ever in the effectiveness of parliamentary government. We may not always move as quickly as we should. We do not always advance as rapidly as I would like to see it done. I have never believed in the old cliche that government is the art of the possible. That is often the excuse for caution and timidity. I believe that government is the art of the impossible.
In 40 years I have seen new programs introduced; I have seen new government agencies set up; I have seen social and economic changes which 40 years ago would have been considered sheer madness.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I will not make any comments on the contemporary scene.
I would like to thank those who have spoken, and hon. members in all parts of the House, for their good wishes as I begin my second 40 years of public endeavour on behalf of the political principles to which I adhere.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
[Stage Direction]

Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It is my duty pursuant to section 19 of the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act Chapter E-2, Revised Statutes of Canada, 1970 to lay upon the table of the House a certified copy of the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission for the Province of Prince Edward Island, 1975.


BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Speaker:: It being almost 2:45 p.m., I have yet to call proceedings pursuant to Standing Order 43. Perhaps hon. members would agree that we might turn to that item, now, and then proceed directly to question period which would expire at 3:30. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
October 14, 1975


BILINGUALISM
Mr. Walter Baker (Grenville-Carleton):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to propose a motion under Standing Order 43 on a matter of urgent and pressing necessity. In view of the fact that all public service staff associations have protested in the strongest terms the government's plan to implement phase two of the bilingual program dealing with units working in French and have called for a halt in implementation, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin):
That the implementation of phase two be halted forthwith, and that the government's program of implementation be submitted to a parliamentary committee to ascertain whether it is in keeping with the spirit and intent of the House resolution of 1973.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: Under the provisions of Standing Order 43 the question cannot be put in the absence of unanimous consent by the House. Is there unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE
Mr. Tom Cossitt (Leeds):: Mr. Speaker, I rise under the provisions of Standing Order 43-


Some hon. Members:: No!


Thomas Charles Cossitt: -to move, seconded by the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre, the following motion:
That the Prime Minister make a full statement to the House in regard to the sizeable deficit existing in the fund for construction of the swimming pool at his official residence, 24 Sussex Drive, and the House requests this statement include specifically details of the recent unsuccessful attempt by Senator Keith Davey to collect sufficient funds to cover such deficit from prominent Liberals, the amount of the deficit, whether the Prime Minister and Mr. William Teron, President of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are presently considering assuming the cost themselves and an assurance that they will not use public funds to bail themselves out.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: Under Standing Order 43 the motion requires unanimous consent. Is there unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed!


Some hon. Members:: No!
House of Commons


FINANCE
Mr. Adrien Lambert (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, as my motion concerns more precisely the new Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald), I should like to congratulate him for his appointment and wish him well for the welfare of Canada.
Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 43, I seek the unanimous consent of the House to move a motion dealing with a very important and urgent matter.
In view of the ever increasing interest rates being the main cause of inflation that affects mostly low wage earners and Parliament being the assembly of the people's delegates, who is the supreme authority in Canada, seconded by the hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette) I move:
That the House recommend to the government and the Minister of Finance to order the Bank of Canada to announce immediately a reduction of interest rates in order to check the voraciousness of credit controllers in the country and at the same time really control inflation.


Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 43, this motion requires the unanimous consent of the House. Is there unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: There is not unanimous consent; the motion cannot be put.


PROPOSED TRIBUTE TO LEADER OF OPPOSITION-MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Mr. Paul Dick (Lanark-Renfrew-Carleton):: Mr. Speaker, I rise under the provisions of Standing Order 43 on a matter of urgency.
Whereas the nation has witnessed over the last month and year the greatest dishonesty, treachery, indecisive leadership and lack of integrity, all in the name of political expediency-


Some hon. Members:: Order!


Paul Wyatt Dick: -culminating in the speech delivered to the nation last evening in violation of Canada's election laws, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Hastings (Mr. Ellis):
That this House, indeed, this nation, show its gratitude to the one political leader who has shown honesty, courage, integrity and a willingness to put his country before himself or his own party's electoral chances, by giving the ovation deserved to one Robert Lome Stanfield.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Robert Lorne Stanfield: May I direct a question or two to the Prime Minister concerning the program about which he spoke last evening-a program contained in the white paper tabled by the Minister of Finance today?
Last evening, the Prime Minister said, and I quote him, "The program of restraint I am announcing tonight will be in effect for a considerable length of time." Can the right hon. gentleman tell the House, at least in a preliminary way, how long the program will be in effect?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: The legislation itself will provide for its normal termination. The period will be slightly longer than three years-to December, 1978.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Will the legislation to be introduced to establish this program of restraint, and the powers associated with it, make any provision for a parliamentary review before the expiration of the life of the program as now envisaged? Will there be provision for a parliamentary review, say, at the end of 18 months or two years?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: No, that is not our intention, but I realize the hon. gentleman might wish to make some argument on that basis and we shall listen to it as the debate develops.


EFFECT OF ANTI-INFLATION GUIDELINES ON SALARIES OF MEMBERS
Robert Lorne Stanfield: further supplementary on another question or problem arising in connection with the program. The Prime Minister will recall the conversation we had last evening in the presence of the other party leaders on the matter of the effect of the new guidelines upon my salary, his salary, the salaries of ministers, on the salaries of certain members of the New Democratic Party. Is the Prime Minister now in a position to tell the House that it is the intention of the government that his salary, my salary, the emoluments of the New Democratic Party leader and of ministers will be restricted to a maximum increase of $2,400, despite any statutory authorization of a larger amount?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: If the hon. gentleman recalls the conversation we had last night, I did indicate that the government had given consideration to that aspect. It was not quite clear in the guidelines-not in our intent, but in the guidelines-as to whether contracts and agreements signed before would also cover statutes-


Some hon. Members:: Oh!


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: I indicated to the hon. gentleman last night that we were prepared to deal with this. I repeat, it is not clear in the guidelines whether-


An hon. Member:: Come on!


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: But I want to assure the House that the legislation on the guidelines will clear this matter up, and it will be quite certain that all office holders under the Crown will be subject to the guidelines.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAM-POSSIBLE CEILING ON GROWTH OF MONEY SUPPLY AND NEW BUDGET
[Stage Direction]

Mr. Sinclair Stevens (York-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Finance, and would also like to congratulate him on his new portfolio.
In view of the Prime Minister's statement on restraint last night followed, unfortunately, by vague references to monetary policy in today's white paper, has the minister contacted the Governor of the Bank of Canada in regard to appropriate monetary policy for the nation to fit within the so-called national action program of the government and, if so, will he indicate what ceiling has been placed on the growth of our money supply, bearing in mind that it has grown 111 per cent in the past 7 Vi years and by 15 per cent in the past 12 months alone?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the government is developing these guidelines after discussions with officials, including those of the Bank of Canada. The policy to be followed is essentially that set out by my predecessor at the time of the June 23 budget, in that there would be a moderate increase in the money supply to meet the requirements of an expanding economy and some part of inflation. There would, in other words, be slower growth in the money supply than has been the case in previous fiscal periods.


Sinclair McKnight Stevens: Mr. Speaker, again in light of the Prime Minister's announcement, is the Minister of Finance reviewing the current fiscal stance of the government and can we expect an early announcement on the changes in this fiscal area, perhaps in the form of a new budget?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Not an early one, Sir.


REQUEST FOR ESTIMATE OF REAL GROWTH
Sinclair McKnight Stevens: Mr. Speaker, as there are no targets or estimates for real growth in our economy set out in the government's anti-inflation program, and as the former Minister of Finance made several estimates in respect of the real growth in our economy for this year, ranging from a high of something over 4 per cent to zero or negative growth, would the Minister of Finance give the House his estimate of the real growth in Canada for 1975?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Not
at this time, Mr. Speaker.
October 14, 1975


ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAMS-PRICE CONTROL MECHANISM-PROVISION FOR CONSUMER COMPLAINTS TO BOARD
John Edward Broadbent: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance, and I should like on behalf of my party to extend congratulations to him on his new office. I hope he will do well, and I am sure he will understand if I add, and somewhat better than his predecessor.
My question arises out of the Prime Minister's address last night in which he made reference to the introduction of controls on prices and profits. Can he explain whether the government intends to introduce a price control mechanism distinct from the profit guidelines, or are prices to be controlled only by means of such guidelines which would only operate after the event, so to speak, and only if the board should decide to look into the books of a particular company?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, may I thank the hon. member for Oshawa-Whitby for his kind remarks. As the hon. member might note from the white paper, the circumstances will very much depend on whether the cost increase in respect of a particular product can be clearly allocated to it, or whether the cost is so intermingled with others that one would have to follow another system. In the case of one in respect of which the cost can be allocated, then the only price increase that will be permissible will be one on which actual cost increase has been proven. With regard to unallocable costs, in some industries and, of course, with regard to the distribution sector, the question of profit margin would then be the basis for determination and application of the guidelines.


John Edward Broadbent: Mr. Speaker, could the minister explain whether in conjunction with the so-called price controls there will be a procedure whereby a consumer faced with a sudden or dramatic price increase in respect of a product would have some opportunity to bring that increase directly to the attention of the anti-inflation board, and whether an investigation of that price increase or of that company's profit position would automatically result from this process?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I would agree that any such complaint should be directed to the board, and I would invite either members of the House or members of the public to do so whenever the occasion arises. As to the manner in which the board dispatches its business, of course it will have to take the internal decisions, but this kind of flow of information will obviously be central to its effective operation.


John Edward Broadbent: Having regard to that last point, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the minister would indicate to the House at least approximately how much time would follow between the consumer laying a complaint about an alleged inappropriate price increase with the board and when he or she might expect an answer?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, this would directly relate to the degree of compliance we are fortunate enough to obtain from the business community or other sectors of the economy. I would only say that every
Oral Questions
effort will be made to keep the board's business current, recognizing, of course, that there will or could indeed be a volume that would be difficult to handle in a short period of time.


ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Solicitor General of Canada.
On a number of occasions I asked the Solicitor General whether the government would enforce the capital punishment legislation. He has always replied that he had other means to protect society. In the case of Mr. Martel who committed suicide the other day and killed a 6 year old child, the minister claimed that it had been through an administrative error that he had been out on seven or eight occasions. Recently, we had the case of a Mr. Clermont who was sentenced to hang some twenty years ago and who was out on five or six occasions. Could the minister tell us whether this was also due to an administrative error?


Hon. Warren Allmand (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, I would have to check on the second case. In the first case of Martel, there was an unfortunate incident in that the warrant of arrest for Martel was delivered by court officials to the wrong prison, to Parthenais rather than the federal penitentiary. Mr. Martel was not, as some newspapers say, out of parole. As a matter of fact he was refused by the parole board both times he applied, but he was released at the end of sentence on mandatory supervision. He would have been kept in if the new warrant of arrest had been delivered to the right place. This is the administrative error to which reference was made. Since that time we have had a meeting in Montreal with the court officials, with the police, with the parole board and so on, and we are taking steps to make sure this sort of thing does not happen again. This is not all within my jurisdiction; some is municipal and some is provincial.


GOVERNMENT POSITION ON RETENTION OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. In view of the representations made to the minister by various police forces, prison guards and other associations which are asking for the enforcement of the current federal legislation and not the reestablishment of the previous one, has the minister given way to these representations and can he advise the House of the means at his disposal to protect society against notorious criminals?


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, the government intends to take every measure possible
8098

Oral Questions
to protect the public against violent crime, and the Minister of Justice and myself, with the government, are now preparing a package of measures directed toward that goal. I must say in answer to the hon. member that when we do commute a death sentence we do not do so in violation of the law but in accordance with the law, as there are provisions within the Criminal Code which provide for that. I also want to point out to the hon. member that since 1967 when the present law was put in force there have only been five commutations under that law, and in three of those there were unanimous recommendations for clemency.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister and has to do with the meeting with the provincial premiers in connection with this problem of inflation. In view of the fact that many of the means whereby inflation can be controlled are within provincial jurisdiction, as he has said on more than one occasion, and in view of the fact that before the federal parliament can enact legislation which would be effective it would be necessary to have in the preamble of the statute or in a section set apart for the purpose a declaration that there was in effect a serious state of emergency, did the Prime Minister obtain the consent of all the premiers in respect of the insertion of such a term in the act so as to ensure that it will not be subject to successful attack in the Supreme Court of Canada.


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I can say the matter was discussed by the premiers. I did not ask them for, and did not obtain from them, any statement to the effect they would react immediately in a final way, and therefore I would not want to speak for their various positions which I hope will be made known as soon as possible; but the matter was discussed. The federal government is aware of the motion put forward by the right hon. gentleman. I would just add that I agree in part with the right hon. gentleman, but there are other headings under which the federal government does claim jurisdiction other than the peace, order and good government section alone. There is the commercial power and there is the banking power as well as many other powers exercised in the course of this legislation.


John George Diefenbaker: All of that is correct in theory, but not in fact. The Supreme Court of Canada has made perfectly clear in a number of judgments that for the federal parliament to intrude in those areas within the jurisdiction of the provinces it would be necessary to have a declaration on the part of parliament that an emergency in fact existed. I suggest to him, and await his reply, that without such a term whatever legislation is introduced would be like conducting a war against inflation with pillows and platitudes.


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I might be able to reassure the right hon. gentleman by telling him at this stage I have no cause to believe the preamble, as it appears in the legislation, will be challenged as to its constitutionality by the premiers; but as the right hon. gentleman knows it is open to any Canadian to challenge the constitutionality of an act. We will have to see if the federal act is constitutional or not. We are convinced it is. I am just indicating to the right hon. gentleman that we are not invoking merely the grounds that he has suggested but are reserving the right to plead before the Supreme Court that many other aspects of federal jurisdiction are involved.


ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAM-POSSIBLE CONTINGENCY PLAN IN EVENT OF SUCCESSFUL CHALLENGE IN COURTS
Mr. Allan Lawrence (Northumberland-Durham):: Mr. Speaker, my question is supplementary. Because so many of these subject matters referred to in the Prime Minister's address last night, and in the white paper today, really fall exclusively within provincial jurisdiction, such as rents, professional fees and such matters, in the event of a constitutional challenge as the right hon. gentleman just indicated, I wonder whether there is any further alternative or contingency plan, especially in the field of taxation, that the Prime Minister may have in respect of the provinces.


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Well, Mr. Speaker, it may be that the hon. gentleman is anticipating a bit the legislation itself which shortly will be before the House, but I would indicate to him that within the scheme of the legislation there are various agreements which are provided for and which can be entered into in areas in which the provinces wish to exercise their own jurisdiction. He will see the details of that. At this stage, at any rate we have no intention of forcing upon the provinces any action with which they do not concur. We hope the position that the provinces themselves expressed at the St. John's conference of first provincial ministers a month and a half ago, to the effect that the federal government should take the leadership in fighting inflation, is the position they will sustain and the one which will bring them to co-operate with us in the application of these guidelines and their enforcement.


Allan Frederick Lawrence: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is simply this: because so many of these subjects will require, as I read it, specific regulations and specific ancillary legislation by the provinces in respect of professional fees, marketing boards and the price of land for housing, which will require some very positive action on the part of the provinces, has the right hon. gentleman received any specific assurance from any province that they will go along with it?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I repeat as I answered the previous question that I am not empowered to speak for the provinces. I can say I was very encouraged by the attitude of the premiers yesterday and the general indication that they would want to co-operate with us in the fight against inflation in which they have been urging us to take leadership as recently as a month and a half ago. There is a general disposition to support our leadership. As
October 14, 1975

to the specific way in which we exercise it and the specific way in which the legislation will be applied and enforced, they have reserved their judgment and properly so. They want to discuss this matter with their cabinets and they will make their views known later on.


EFFECT OF ANTI-INFLATION PROGRAM ON MONTREAL TRANSPORT FARES AND TAX SHARING WITH PROVINCES
Mr. Claude Wagner (Saint-Hyacinthe):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance.
What measures does the minister propose to take within the framework of his anti-inflation program, and this in consultation with his Quebec counterparts, so that the TCMUC in Montreal will agree to review the increase in its public transport rates, which took effect yesterday and seriously affects all workers, or to give up this increase?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, as we have indicated in the white paper, we are not taking action relating to contracts settled before today. I think the increase the hon. member is referring to is included in that later group. Of course, if there is a possibility, with the consent and the participation of the Quebec or some other province government, to set up a program which would monitor the costs, prices and salaries of governments, we would rely on cooperation in such a context.


Claude Wagner: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary.
Will this outburst of determination on the part of the government in the face of inflation result in putting off indefinitely any study of new federal-provincial sharing of costs to assist the municipalities which, as we know, are no longer capable of assuming their responsibilities, more specifically in the fields of leisure, housing renovation and public transport?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the matter of federal-provincial agreements in many fields of common interest is now under study; we can look into those changes as well as many others. I must point out that with our austerity program, we cannot guarantee higher payments to individuals or provinces for new programs. As my colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare indicated, there are programs to which we look for possibilities of decreasing present expenditures.


POSSIBLE REVISION OF MAXIMUM LEVELS FOR MERCURY CHLORIDE AND PCB
Hon. Stanley Haidasz (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare whether any revised maximum permissible levels for mercury chloride and PCB have been decided upon. If not, how soon can we expect any change in view of their
Oral Questions
present levels being considered by some experts as harmful to health.


Hon. Marc Lalonde (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, at the present time there is a maximum permissible level of 0.5 parts per million for mercury. This level is strictly enforced. In the immediate future it is not anticipated that there will be a further reduction in respect of that level. So far as PCB is concerned, the results of recent studies in the United States are causing serious concern and my department is examining the advisability of introducing standards which may be even more strict than the United States standards in this regard, for certain fish species in designated geographic areas.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Stuart Leggatt (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that in the province of British Columbia some 60,000 workers have now returned to their employment in the public interest following government legislation-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Stuart Malcolm Leggatt: -and in view of the fact that this proposed legislation and the white paper would appear to exclude those workers who will not come under the exemptions provided to the 10 per cent, would the minister advise if he would not reconsider these guidelines so that those workers who have returned to work in the public interest following this legislation will not be limited in terms of the contracts they are about to negotiate or sign.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I would say that a settlement of the dimensions of the one now being discussed in British Columbia obviously has to be of pretty fundamental interest, and the government of course will be seeking the guidance of the anti-inflation board with regard to any settlements of that kind. I think that the more sensible way to look at it is that we have created the anti-inflation board and will ask them to scrutinize the application of these guidelines to particular situations and to take action, either by reference back to government or to the administrator, as might seem desirable.


Stuart Malcolm Leggatt: My supplementary question is this, Mr. Speaker: in view of the fact that the IWA, the largest trade union in British Columbia, is voting this week in terms of the Hutcheon conciliation report, and in view of the fact that that contract will clearly not be concluded prior to October 14 but subsequent to it, can the minister give those workers who are presently working on that contract
29669-29>/2

October 14, 1975
Oral Questions
any assurance that the vote they are now taking will not be invalid?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: As minister, I do not propose to give assurances either on that or on any individual contract. I think the sensible thing is to refer these matters to the anti-inflation board, to rely on their efforts in this area, and to rely on the judgment they exercise in these matters.


Stuart Malcolm Leggatt: Would the minister recommend to the union that its members now negotiate with the board rather than with their employers?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: It seems to me that the union will, of course, want to continue to negotiate under the collective bargaining arrangements that exist. We hope that together with all other Canadians they will take account of the possible impact of a very high settlement upon the interests of Canadians generally.


HOUSING
Mr. Leonel Beaudoin (Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of State for Urban Affairs.
As, in coming months, we will have to strengthen our economy through every possible means, can the minister tell the House whether he intends to extend beyond October 31 next the federal subsidies program of $500 to home buyers, to help the housing construction sector?


Hon. Barney Danson (Minister of State for Urban Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I am not able to speak at this time on any specific subsidy. I would refer to the whole range of programs on which we hope to continue the progress we are making at an encouraging rate this year-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Barnett Jerome Danson: -so that we make certain that we achieve even higher targets next year.


Léonel Beaudoin: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary.
Does the minister mean by his answer that he will cancel the $500 grant to the owner of a new house?


Barnett Jerome Danson: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that at this time. I am reviewing this very carefully. We must make certain, particularly in these times of considerable restraint, that every dollar we spend produces results. I have not made a firm decision but I will make it shortly.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Miss Flora MacDonald (Kingston and the Islands):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to my clansman, the new Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that the measures proposed by the Prime Minister last evening indicate no action to deal with certain inequities in our economy, such as inordinately high mortgage rates, and that these inequities will tend to be perpetuated unless dealt with specifically, can the minister say what measures, if any, are proposed to alleviate the high cost of mortgages for prospective home owners whose income increases may be limited to $600 a year?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, perhaps before replying in substance I could, as another member of that able and very good looking clan, the Clan Donald, express my very best wishes to the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands in the enterprise in which she recently launched herself.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: With respect to the substance of the question I would say that my colleague, the Minister of State for Urban Affairs, will be bringing forward, as is indicated in the white paper, some proposals with regard to the housing area. In the longer run, of course, the most effective way to bring down the cost of borrowing in Canada is to bring down the rate of inflation.


HOUSING
Flora Isabel MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is directed to the Minister of State for Urban Affairs. Can he give us some indication as to when these new proposals will be brought forward?


Barnett Jerome Danson: As soon as they possibly can be, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. member and as all hon. members know, we are constantly on our toes in the housing field.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


An hon. Member:: Give us an honest answer.


Barnett Jerome Danson: Our plans are ready. But in view of the existing circumstances we want to review all the programs we have now to make certain again that in the current situation they will have the maximum impact. The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands will be impressed and, I am sure, gratified by the housing starts in this past month amounting to 234,000.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Barnett Jerome Danson: This is up 37 per cent over the same month
last year.
October 14, 1975


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to return to the subject we were discussing originally and ask the Prime Minister, if the government intends to appoint the anti-inflation board under the Inquiries Act before the legislation he has dealt with is passed whether he has established the names of suitable hardy Canadians who will be likely to be appointed, and will Mrs. Plumptre be one of the members of that board?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As usual, the hon. gentleman has a great deal of foresight. He is reading the government's mind.


An hon. Member:: What mind?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Allan Frederick Lawrence: That is a terrible thing to say.


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Are hon. members opposite indicating that the solution we chose is the one they would propose themselves? This morning, by order in council under the Inquiries Act, we have appointed the chairman and vice chairman of the anti-inflation review board. The legislation itself, of course, will provide for other bases for their existence, but we wanted this board to start its existence as of today.


Gerald William Baldwin: Who are they?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: There is some curiosity opposite. The name of the chairman is the Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: The vice chairman is a person who has equally the respect of the House. I thank them both for having answered the call of duty to their country in undertaking this very difficult task. The name of the vice chairman is Mrs. Beryl Plumptre.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Gerald William Baldwin: Have their salaries been established and will the salary payable to Mrs. Plumptre be established according to the guidelines which the government is proposing?


POST OFFICE
Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Postmaster General. Could the minister inform the House as to the current status of negotiations with the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and, particularly, whether the government remains prepared to accept the recommendations of the conciliation
Oral Questions
board notwithstanding the guidelines announced last evening?


Hon. Bryce Mackasey (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, at the present moment no negotiations are going on. The union is preoccupied with the problem of obtaining a mandate in order to call a strike, if in the opinion of the executive such a move is necessary. The government is prepared to negotiate with the union on the Moisan report, the conciliation board report, particularly in the light of the fact that the guidelines provide certain exceptions, a very significant one being that "there may also be other grounds for exceptions, such as increases necessary to maintain long-established historical relationships between wages in closely related groups and other special cases of equity". The long established historical relationship would be between the wages of the letter carriers and the inside postal workers.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: From the remarks of the Postmaster General I would conclude that the conciliation board agreement stands, but in view of the fact that the national leadership of the postal union in canvassing its membership has failed to provide an opportunity to express an opinion on the conciliation report, and furthermore appears anxious to lead the membership down the strike route, will the Postmaster General in the public interest now issue an unequivocal statement offering to reopen negotiations on the basis of the Moisan report?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: The postal workers understand that I am prepared to negotiate on this basis. If the national executive continues adamantly to suggest that negotiations take place on a report which advocates 71 per cent over one year, they will be on strike for a long, long time.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Donald W. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether wage negotiations which have gone to arbitration or conciliation will be exempt from or covered by the wage guidelines announced in the white paper which we received today.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the guidelines with respect to compensation provide that agreements concluded as of the moment of the cut-off point would not be interfered with by the guidelines process. Those which are not concluded would obviously be affected by it, and it would then be a matter for the anti-inflation board to determine in any particular circumstance what the impact would be, in particular what the impact would be of the level of compensation to be awarded.

October 14, 1975
Oral Questions


APPLICATION OF WAGE GUIDELINES TO SALARIES OF MEMBERS
Mr. Norman A. Cafik (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. Would the government ensure that its legislation relating to wage guidelines will also apply to salaries of members of parliament, parliamentary secretaries, senators and ministers in the same way as it will to many other sectors of the economy?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member for Y orkton-Melville.


PUBLIC SERVICE
Mr. Lome Nystrom (Yorkton-Melville):: Mr. Speaker, my question is also with regard to salaries, and it is directed to the President of the Treasury Board. I would like to ask the President of the Treasury Board whether the recommendations of the fourth report of the advisory group on executive compensation in the public service, tabled in April, has been accepted by the government. That reports recommends salary increases of up to $6,500 for deputy ministers. Has that report been accepted?


Hon. Jean Chretien (President of the Treasury Board):: Mr. Speaker, I think the government agreed to this report in July.


Lorne Edmund Nystrom: I would like to ask the President of the Treasury Board, then, whether the recommendations in that report are already in effect, and was the timing of that report coincidental to the announcement of the Prime Minister last night? Does the statement made in the House affect those recommendations in any way?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, the report of the Lambert Commission was submitted to the government last July and the Prime Minister announced in July that the government agreed to this report. Thus, this report is not covered by the policies which were spelled out last evening and tabled in the House today.


FISHERIES
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Minister of State (Fisheries). Tomorrow Iceland becomes the first nation in the North Atlantic to extend its fishing limits to 200 miles, and Norway is expected to follow suit. Other nations will be

allowed to fish in Iceland's waters under a controlled licencing progam upon payment of a fee for fishing on a smaller scale, and I understand Mexico is considering similar action. I light of the continuing decline in Canadian fishing resources, is the present government giving consideration to the early extension of Canadian control over the fishing rsources on our continental shelf?


Hon. Romeo LeBlanc (Minister of State (Fisheries)):: Mr. Speaker, the countries listed by the hon. member have indicated their desire to extend, and this would be followed by negotiations. We have already started the process of bilateral discussion and bilateral negotiations with at least five of the nations which fish off our coast. I believe the success of the ICNAF conference a couple of weeks ago is a recognition of the priority of the coastal state, and I believe Canada's desire to extend its jurisdiction is still very visible to all concerned.


POSSIBLE DISCUSSION OF EXTENSION OF CONTROL OVER RESOURCES WITH UNITED STATES
Mr. Jack Marshall (Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the same minister in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the fact that the Secretary of State from the United States is now visiting Ottawa, and in view of the fact that that country is also moving toward a 200 mile fisheries economic zone, I wonder if the minister would indicate if the relationship between Canada and the United States with regard to the 200-mile limit will be discussed during that visit. Will the minister be taking part, and will he report back to the House on the results of that discussion?


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Roméo LeBlanc: Mr. Speaker, we have been keeping in close touch with the United States on these matters. This question will come up in the discussions on the law of the sea and its implications, and I will leave to my colleague, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, the responsibility of reporting back to the House.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister. Now that the government has tabled the white paper on inflation, could the Prime Minister table the long rumoured contingency plan on inflation so that we can see what changes, if any, there are in the two approaches and thus help us understand why the government took so long to take action on this issue.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: I appreciate that the Prime Minister may not want to answer the first question, but perhaps he
October 14, 1975

might be able to answer the second question, which is not as provocative and much more constructive. When the former minister of finance was minister, did he play any role in the preparation of the current anti-inflation proposals?


Mr. Speaker:: Order,	please.	The	hon.	member	for
Edmonton West.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I have asked two questions in this House after a two month holiday.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mr. Speaker:: Order,	please.	The	hon.	member	for
Edmonton West.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: On a point of order or on a question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: Order,	please.	The	hon.	member	for
Annapolis Valley has one minute to wait for his question of privilege.


TRANSPORT
Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. While he is new in his job perhaps he could disinter a long standing problem from his predecessor and tell us when there will be a report issued on the crash of the Panarctic plane in the Arctic, because there is grave prejudice to next of kin and beneficiaries of those persons unfortunately deceased in that crash.


Hon. Otto E. Lang (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I hope we will be able to issue that report in about a week.


PUBLIC SERVICE
Walter David Baker: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. As part of the white paper in terms of the public service there has been an indication of reduction in man-years. Is the minister in a position to tell us generally the extent of that reduction of man-years across the board, and does the fact that only staff increases will be allowed in certain areas set out in the white paper indicate that it is the intention of the government not to proceed with the implementation of phase two of the bilingualism program in so far as it may amount to the necessity for an increase in staff?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, the policy proposed by the govern-
Privilege-Mr. Cossitt
ment indicates in fact that some departments will experience a reduction and some others an increase in their personnel as described in the white paper tabled today.
Of course, this will not prevent the continuation of the bilingualism policy voted by the House of Commons in 1973 and which the hon. member supported.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, on a very short question of privilege, I tried to ask two very sensible and logical questions during the question period. I did allude to the fact that basically the Prime Minister has been on holiday for about two months and this House has been adjourned for a little more than two months. Regardless of what has happened this weekend, and any comments about intellectual dishonesty, I think we are entitled to an answer as to whether there ever was a contingency plan with regard to inflation so that we could see what in heaven's name took the government so long to get off its butt.



ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Hon. Andre Ouellet (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table the order-in-council establishing the temporary AntiInflation Commission and appointing the Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin as president and Mrs. Plumptre as vice-president of the commission.


APPOINTMENT OF DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Sharp):
That Charles Turner, Esquire, member for the electoral district of London East, be appointed Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Thomas Charles Cossitt: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
question of privilege concerning a matter which I believe
will be of grave concern to members on all sides of the

October 14, 1975
Privilege-Mr. Cossitt
House. I refer to information which has come to me that indicates clearly and beyond a doubt that telephone calls being made by members of parliament and possibly, also, by public servants from various places in Canada to their offices here in Ottawa or to other government offices in Ottawa are being periodically listened to in a manner which I will now describe.
The calls to which I refer are those which are made over what are commonly referred to as incoming watts lines which are available for use by public servants and members of parliament to make calls to government offices in Ottawa including members' own offices. Since this system was installed I have made use of it, as I am sure other members have also done, and it first came to my attention on a number of occasions that at intervals of approximately 30 to 45 seconds I was hearing clicking noises-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


An hon. Member:: You hear that even when you are not on the phone.


Thomas Charles Cossitt: -that sounded as if someone was coming on the line at such points. I therefore made immediate inquiries with several operators involved on these occasions, and was advised by the operators that they had instructions to check at certain intervals for the purpose, so they said, of seeing if a line was still in use, by listening for conversation. I then asked to speak to the senior supervisor on duty, and would like to cite as an example the conversation that I had with Mrs. Breton who was the supervisor on duty when such an incident occurred on October 1.
Mrs. Breton confirmed information given to me by another supervisor on a previous date that operators were under instructions to check the lines at approximately 45-second intervals to determine if conversation was in progress. She further stated that the reason a check was being made for conversation was that Bell Telephone equipment was such that when both parties hung up, the operator did not receive a disconnection and therefore there was no way of knowing whether the call was completed, without making such frequent checks. Any excuse that the checking is done mechanically without actual listening on the line could scarcely be accurate since on at least four occasions I was able to speak directly to and question the operator who was, in effect, listening in.
I	find it difficult to accept the fact that Bell Canada's equipment is such that they do not know when a call is completed, and indeed I have since checked this point with persons in Bell Canada who tell me that they have no knowledge of equipment of this inadequate nature. I also asked who, specifically, had issued the instructions that telephone calls were to be monitored in this fashion and I was advised that any such instructions were never issued by Bell Canada and could presumably only have come from the Department of Communications of the Govern-

ment of Canada, and presumably specifically from or through the office of the man who I gather is in charge of government telecommunications, namely, Mr. M. E. Bai-grie. It was explained to me by Bell Canada that although the operators involved in this incident are employees of Bell Canada, they are entirely subject to taking orders and instructions from the Government of Canada.
This brings me, Mr. Speaker, directly to my point of privilege, and that is that we have a case proven beyond a doubt that the Government of Canada, through the Department of Communications, is requiring operators to listen to telephone calls being made by members of this House. It does not seem to me to make any difference how it is explained away, checking for conversation, checking to see if a line is still in use, checking to see if conversation is going on: all of these things boil down to one simple, straightforward fact, and that is that people, under instructions of this government, are listening periodically to private telephone calls of members of parliament.
This I contend, Mr. Speaker, is a breach of the law of this country; it is an affront to parliament; it is directly interfering with the privileges of members of parliament, regardless of political affiliation, when they talk to constituents and other persons over the lines of Bell Canada with complete confidentiality expected.
I realize that generally operators of Bell Canada are honest people who are not concerned with reporting what opposition members of parliament are talking about in regard to government policies or other important matters, but the essential thing is that the very fact this listening is going on does not in any way preclude the obvious possibility that there could be those who would, under direct instruction of the government, make notes and report on calls to those in government to whom such calls might be of interest, and this I think is intolerable and quite beyond the democratic process.
A situation which can even permit an opening for any government to spy on the conversations of members of parliament is not one that should be treated lightly. It may be debatable, Mr. Speaker, if this is a definite case of privilege, but I do not believe it is in any way debatable that if it is a matter that is not strictly a case of privilege, it comes very close to it, and I therefore request the Chair's consideration of this matter.
In conclusion, I would also ask the privilege of reserving the right to move a subsequent motion on this subject should such seem to be advisable, since in a democracy anything that smacks remotely of dictatorial wire-tapping, eavesdropping or spying, or which creates a situation where such things could happen, must be stopped and stopped forthwith.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member, of course, raises a very serious point. There have been allusions by two other hon. members of the House on previous days, the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) and the hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Waterloo (Mr. Beatty), to difficulties not precisely of the same sort but similar difficulties with the technical equipment. After an assurance to the hon. member for Yukon just before the recess, I had a preliminary technical report-prepared, and I think perhaps the most advisable course might be to
October 14, 1975

share that technical information, which is of a very preliminary nature, with the three hon. members involved, to elicit their views on it and to see whether or not anything needs to be done, in consultation with the various parties of the House. There might be some consensus to carry that kind of technical investigation further, or perhaps to have the matter looked at by one of the standing committees of the House, depending on the contents of the preliminary report. If that is agreeable, perhaps the matter can be handled in that way.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) seeks the consent of the House to revert to the tabling of documents. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


TABLING OF DOCUMENT ON MERCURY CONTAMINATION
Marc Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document titled: Federal measures to deal with mercury contamination, which summarizes government activity over the last years on that question.


An hon. Member:: Hear, hear!


QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk)
Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, some 400 questions are being answered today; therefore, I thought the House would not wish any parliamentary secretary or minister to take the time of the House in listing the numbers. I would therefore ask leave of the House, in lieu of reading the list, to table it. I understand members of the opposition may want to raise later about about this list. The government will not object to that procedure, if it can take place the following day.


Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, it has been arranged for the whole bag, as it were, to be tabled today and if any hon. member wishes to raise an issue on a matter of privilege, he should do so tomorrow. We consent to this proceeding, but I cannot forbear pointing out that in Finland, a country with a freedom of information law, the total number of questions answered every year, both written and oral, is only 300 or 400. I point this out to my hon. friends opposite.
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I thank the House leader of the official opposition for agreeing to this procedure, which I assure him will not be repeated frequently.
[Editor's Note: The numbers referred to above are as follows:] 1331, 1339, 1480 to 1511 inclusive, 1610 to 1662 inclusive, 1894, 1916, 2033, 2229, 2264, 2266, 2300, 2325, 2333, 2351, 2371, 2392,	2410,	2416, 2461,	2475,	2524, 2525,	2534,	2544,2558, 2566, 2579,	2593,	2608, 2618,	2622,	2625, 2631,	2635,	2645,2650, 2652 to 2663 inclusive, 2665 to 2669 inclusive, 2671, 2672, 2673, 2686, 2692, 2694, 2701, 2709 to 2713 inclusive, 2719, 2720, 2722 to 2739 inclusive, 2741 to 2747 inclusive, 2749 to 2753 inclusive, 2755 to 2760 inclusive, 2762, 2763, 2773, 2776, 2779, 2785, 2796,	2797,	2799, 2802,	2804,	2805, 2809,	2810,	2813,2814, 2817, 2818,	2821,	2826, 2828,	2829,	2834, 2838,	2839,	2840,
2843, 2844, 2846, 2852, 2854, 2856 to 2862 inclusive, 2875, 2876, 2880, 2883, 2886, 2887, 2888, 2890, 2894, 2896 to 2900 inclusive, 2903, 2904, 2905, 2912, 2913, 2914, 2915, 2918, 2919, 2922 to 2927 inclusive, 2929 to 2934 inclusive, 2936, 2937, 2938, 2944, 2947 to 2955 inclusive, 2958, 2959, 2960, 2961, 2963, 2966, 2968, 2973, 2974, 2975, 2976, 2987, 2988, 2989, 2991 to 3003 inclusive, 3008, 3013, 3015, 3016, 3018 to 3023 inclusive, 3025, 3026, 3027, 3028, 3031 to 3035 inclusive, 3037, 3038, 3040, 3041, 3043, 3044, 3046 to 3050 inclusive, 3054, 3055, 3057, 3058, 3064, 3065, 3066, 3067, 3075, 3076, 3078, 3080, 3083, 3086, 3087, 3089, 3090, 3095, 3096, 3097, 3098 and 3099.


Mr. Forrestall: What progress has beep made by Canada in the area of extracting metals from the oceans, pursuant to the stimuli enunciated for same by the Minister of State for Science and Technology in the "New Oceans Policy" statement of July 12, 1973?


Mitchell William Sharp: Two of the largest Canadian companies, Noranda Mines and International Nickel Company, are already participating in international consortia with long term research programs related to nodule mining. The Canadian government is also assisting Canadian manufacturers and service companies to develop technology for exploration and production of metals from the oceans. It is estimated that cumulative government support to the end of this fiscal year will be just over $300,000.


Mr. Huntington: 1.	What was the total cost of advertising in (a) the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce (b) the Metric Commission for the years 1972-73 and 1973-74?
2.	What was the breakdown of the programmes against the total cost of advertising for these years?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce, the Canadian Government Office of Tourism and the Metric Commission as follows: 1. (a) IT and C,
1972-73, $684,639; 1973-74, $531,265; C.G.O.T., 1972-73, $5,943,000; 1973-74, $6,575,100. (b) None.
2.	The Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce advertising moneys were expended to support the partici-
29669-3ft

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
pation of Canadian firms involved in trade fairs and missions abroad.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the University of Guyana project in Guyana on June 28, 1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7- How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed that the Secretary of State for External Affairs has been in direct communication with the Honourable Member regarding this matter.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Telecommunications, Phase III, Stage II and IV project in Nigeria on November 26, 1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Geophysical Survey project in Cameroun on November 14, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the National Cadastral Survey project in Morocco on December 20, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Construction of University Buildings, UWI on the various islands on January 10, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Aerial Mapping project in Tanzania on May 12, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Belem Thermal Plant Electrobras project in Brazil on December 9, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
October 14, 1975

4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Alto Anchicaya Hydro project in Columbia on May 22, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
CONTRACT-HYDERABAD/KARACHI INTERCONNECTOR PROJECT, PAKISTAN


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Hyderabad/Karachi Interconnector project in Pakistan on June 27, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the construction of Blaise Diagne and 4 CEGs in Senegal on April 24, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
Order Paper Questions
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Bonaberi School project in Cameroun on December 1, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Cyat project in Columbia on August 31, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Cimmyt project in Mexico on August 31, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
29669-30^2

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Electrical Distribution project in Tanzania on November 1, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Assistance to National Power Authority project in Nigeria on March 1, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Extension Akosombo Hydro project in Ghana on April 26, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Forest Inventory project in Tanzania on July 13, 1971?

2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the School Rehabilitation project in Nigeria on November 4, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Transmission Line project in Ghana-Togo Dahomey on March 5, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Route de l'Unite project in Niger on May 18, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
October 14, 1975

6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproshi: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Prytanee School project in Senegal on April 14, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
CONTRACT-SHASHE/SELEBI-PIKWE POWER STATION, BOTSWANA


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Shashe/Selebi-Pikwe Power Station in Botswana on April 21, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the National Library project in the Ivory Coast on February 18, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
Order Paper Questions CONTRACT-KAIROUAN PROJECT, TUNISIA


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Kairouan project in Tunisia on May 5, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Improvement in Management Services project in Algeria on July 10, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Transportation Study, Phase II project in Jamaica on April 12, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Great Ruaha Power project in Tanzania on May 15, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproshi: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Great Ruaha Power project in Tanzania on February 24, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproshi: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Topographical Survey project in Tanzania on March 9, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Hadejia River Basin Study project in Nigeria on August 13, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Uplands Sugar Mill project in Barbados on February 5, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Derro Tetouan project in Morocco on May 22, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the University Building project in UWI on May 31, 1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
October 14, 1975


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Blackburn Airport project in Montserrat on September 13, 1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Transmission Line Route Study project in Ghana-Togo Dahomey on October 25,1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Transportation Survey project in Jamaica on November 14, 1968?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Forest Protection and Conservation project in Algeria on November 29, 1969?
Order Paper Questions
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Akonolinga Bridge project in Cameroun on June 19, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Geophysical Survey project in Niger on November 14, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the College Mariama project in Niger on September 15, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Advisory Services project in Francophone Countries on August 21, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the construction, Pares Village School project in Antigua, on January 10, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the construction, Grand Bay School project in Dominica on January 10, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Topographical Mapping project in Jamaica on April 19, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Aerial Mapping project in Kenya on October 11, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Hydro Studies, Salto Grenade project in Argentina on December 19, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1. What criteria were used to award the Electric Power Electrobras
project in Brazil on July 10, 1969?
October 14, 1975

2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Electric Power Electrobras Northeast Distribution project in Brazil on July 10, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Pre-feasibility Studies Ariguani River project in Columbia on November 3, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Pre-feasibility Studies of Hydro Electric Central of Alto Anchicaya project in Colombia in February 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
Order Paper Questions
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Transmission, Design and Supervision of Constructing project in Ghana-Togo Dahomey on March 4, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Mwanza to Oldeani project in Tanzania on October 1, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Phosphate Deposits project in Niger on August 25, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproshi: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Economic Studies project in Niger on June 19, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Geophysical Survey project in Cameroun on September 24, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Kossou Transmission Line project in Ivory Coast on June 18, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Tunis-Korba Transmission Line project in Tunisia on August 5, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Animal Feed Study project in Barbados on February 24, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Construction of Water Systems project in Montserrat on July 27, 1970?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1. What criteria were used to award the ECN-NDA Merger Study
project in Nigeria on March 26, 1971?
October 14, 1975

2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Mainline Track Survey project in Nigeria on April 7, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Zambia Institute of Technology project in Zambia on January 29, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Niger Dam Authority project in Nigeria on February 9, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
Order Paper Questions
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Engineering and Advisory Services Communication System Expansion project in East Africa on January 11, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Resources Development Study project in Uganda on April 1, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How fnany Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Grain Storage Survey project in Tanzania on May 11, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Economic and Advisory Services project in Zambia on May 21, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the National Library project in Ivory Coast on March 19, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Crop Protection Centre project in Niger on January 13, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Economic Study project in Tunisia on October 4, 1971?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
CONTRACT-SHASHE/SELEBI-PIKWE POWER STATION PROJECT IN BOTSWANA


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Shashe/Selebi-Pikwe Power Station project in Botswana on March 14, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Makuyuni to Mwanza Road project in Tanzania on March 29, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
CONTRACT-SHASHE/SELEBI-PIKWE POWER STATION PROJECT IN BOTSWANA


Mr. Paproski: 1. What criteria were used to award the Shashe/Selebi-Pikwe Power
Station project in Botswana on April 6, 1972?
October 14, 1975

2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.
CONTRACT-HALE KIKULETWA POWER LINE PROJECT IN .	TANZANIA


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Hale Kikuletwa Power Line project in Tanzania on September 13, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the UWI and Mona Library project in UWI on January 6, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Water and Sewerage Study, Belize City project in British Honduras on April 12, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
Order Paper Questions
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Study of Banana Industry, Phase III project in Dominica on October 16, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Hale-Kikuletwa Power Line project in Tanzania on May 15, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Dar-es-Salaam Water Supply project in Tanzania on February 9, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the UWI Building for Management Studies project in UWI on February 1, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Sena-Inderena project in Colombia on July 11, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Ecole nationale de Peche project in Algeria on May 3, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Field Training and Demonstration Centre project in Vietnam on November 15, 1972?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Ecole polytechnique de Thies project in Senegal on March 2, 1973?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Paproski: 1.	What criteria were used to award the Refugee Housing project in Vietnam on July 11, 1968 and August 15, 1969?
2.	(a) Who was asked to submit a bid (b) who was the low bidder (c) who was the high bidder?
3.	Was the low bidder awarded the contract on the job and, if not, for what reason?
4.	What was the net bid?
5.	Were any extras awarded and, if so, who authorized these extras and what was the purpose of these extras?
6.	Which members from CIDA and/or the Department of External Affairs visited the job site and were their trips charged to the project?
7.	How many Canadians were employed on the project?


Mitchell William Sharp: See answer to question No. 1,480 tabled this day.


Mr. Rodriguez: 1.	With respect to paragraph 301 of the Report of the Royal Commission on Security (abridged), dated June 1969 (a) what Minister, agency
October 14, 1975

or level of government determines what organizations are "subversive organizations" (b) what organizations are currently designated as subversive organizations?
2.	As of March 1973, was the League for Socialist Action designated as a subversive organization?
3.	Has paragraph 301 of the Report been adopted as government policy in the case of citizenship applications where it is felt there are considerations of security involved and, if not (a) has the recommendation been explicitly rejected or shelved (b) what is the current government policy on the question?
4.	What were the criteria used to determine what constitutes the special "certain cases" that make the exception to the recommended policy of the recommendation?


Mitchell William Sharp: am informed by the Ministry of the Solicitor General, the Prime Minister and Privy Council offices and the Department of the Secretary of State as follows: 1. (a) With respect to paragraph 301 of the report of the Royal Commission on Security (abridged), dated June 1969, no minister, agency, or level of government declares organizations subversive, (b) See reply to part 1(a).
2.	See reply to part 1(a).
3.	Yes, with the exception of access to a Security Review Board. This aspect of the recommendation is under study.
4.	Actual illegalities or criminal acts where proven in court. Particularly significant security reasons, e.g. intelligence operations-activities directed towards or involvement in disorder and violence.


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	How many persons from Chile who did not possess sufficient points to be ordinarily admitted to Canada as landed immigrants have been advised or will be advised that they will be admitted with regulations waived since the date the present government of Chile took office?
2.	Has the government turned down the application of Mr. R. G. Elliot of Worcester Park, Surrey, England for landed immigrant status for himself and family and, if so (a) is the government aware that this man was guaranteed employment in Calgary, Alberta and would not be a charge on the taxpayer (b) for what reason was he refused, regardless of points, when Chileans are being admitted freely?


Hon. Robert K. Andras (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: 1. As of August 31, 1975, 2,096 persons were landed in Canada as a result of the special movement from Chile and 1,067 persons who have been issued immigrant visas have not yet arrived. An additional 227 persons have entered Canada as a result of events in Chile and are in the process of being landed. Of the 2,096 persons landed in Canada, slightly more than 300 were admitted through the use of discretion. In other words, these 300 persons were issued visas under the provision of subsection 4(a) of Section 32 of the Immigration Regulations. This subsection allows for the exercise of discretion by an immigration or visa officer by allowing such officer to approve the admission of an independent applicant who does not meet the selection norms if in his opinion there are good reasons why those norms do not reflect the particular applicants chances of establishing himself successfully in Canada and those reasons have been submitted in writing to, and approved by, an officer of the Department of Manpower and Immigration designated by the Minister of that Department. Particulars of those persons who have
Order Paper Questions
received visas but have not yet arrived and those persons in the process of being landed have not yet been tabulated.
2.	Yes (a) The Department of Manpower and Immigration is aware that Mr. Elliot was offered employment in Calgary, Alberta, (b) Mr. Elliot failed to achieve the required units of assessment required by Section 32 and Schedule A of the Immigration Regulations and despite the offer of employment the immigration or visa officer found no reason for believing that the selection norms did not properly reflect Mr. Elliot's chances of establishing himself in Canada. On the other hand, in those 300 cases mentioned in part 1 of this Question where discretion was used, there were reasons to believe that because of assistance available from private agencies as well as through the use of special Government funds, the people from Chile would become successfully established in Canada.


Mr. Rodriguez: By province, how many man-days of work were lost as a result of layoffs in (a) 1972 (b) 1973 (c) 1974 (d) January, 1975 (e) February,
1975?


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of Labour):: This department has no information regarding lay-offs.


Mr. Herbert: Of the total radio listening time of all persons in Canada, what percentage is estimated as listening to (a) CBC radio outlets or programmes originating with CBC (b) independent radio outlets or programmes originating with these stations (c) foreign radio broadcasting?


Mitchell William Sharp: The following figures named from the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement from the most recent survey indicate the percentage of total hours weekly tuning to all English and French CBC owned and operated radio stations, on the one hand, and all foreign radio stations on the other. The results are as follows:
	Hours Tuned Weekly	Per cent of T otal Weekly Tuning
CBC (English and French) owned and operated stations	20,368,700	7.1CBC Affilicated Radio Stations' Estimated Reach of CBC	5,020,950	8.! 1.8Affiliated Stations' Non-CBC Programming Estimate	28,452,050	9.9Independent Canadian Stations	224,173,100	78.3Foreign Stations	8,212,200	2.9Total Radio Tuning	286,227,000	100.0
October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
Since there is a great variation in the placement of CBC network programming on affiliated independent stations, it would take considerable expenditures in order to determine the exact amount of radio listening to CBC network programming via private stations. An extrapolated guesstimate of the reach of CBC programming on affiliated stations is about 1.8 per cent so that the total listening to CBC programming is 8.9 per cent. The term "listening" in the question is not defined. Very often people use the words "total hours tuned" and "total listening" as equivalent. BBM really measures only whether a radio set is on, not whether the listener is really listening, nor to what degree he is engaged in the message being communicated. Many background music stations have high ratings, but whether anyone is really listening is a different question. The CBC on the other hand sends to present programming which by its very nature demands attention. The statistics for the CBC may therefore be deceiving: they indicate 8.9 per cent of tuning, but the CBC may well account for a much higher percentage of all engaged radio listening. There are no statistical measurements of attentive versus non-attentive listening.


Mr. Stevens: 1.	Has the government any plan to establish in Aurora an area post office distribution centre and, if so, will the new facility be operated out of the existing post office building or is it planned to construct a new building?
2.	If a new building is contemplated (a) where will it be located (b) on what date will it be constructed?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Yes. A new building is proposed for the area.
2.	(a) and (b) Not yet determined.


Mr. Stevens.: Has the government any immediate plans to build or rent a new post office in Newmarket, Ontario and (a) if so (i) on what date will tenders be called for the construction of the new building or for rental proposals (ii) what is planned for the present post office facility if it is no longer required for post office purposes (b) if not (i) will the present facility be renovated (ii) on what date is it anticipated that renovation will begin?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Public Works):: Yes, Canada Post Office have requested Public Works to provide a postal processing plant in Newmarket, Ontario with a tentative occupancy date of August 1978. (a) (i) Planning for this plant is in the very early stages of development. Various alternatives will be studied to determine how this facility is to be provided and we are not in a position to establish a definite tender call date for either Crown construction or rental proposals at such an early stage of project development, (ii) The present post office facility will be retained for continued use by the Post Office and other federal government departments, (b) (i) Not applicable, (b) (ii) Not applicable.


Mr. Herbert: Will consideration be given to allowing an individual to pay current taxes on payments made to compulsory pension plans, thus making the proceeds of the plan non-taxable to the individual that has pre-selected this procedure?


Mitchell William Sharp: This proposal is not under consideration since, for almost every taxpayer, it is more advantageous to obtain a deduction during the course of working life when the individual's marginal tax rate is higher, than to pay tax on income after retirement when the marginal tax rate is lower. This advantage has been considerably enchanced by the passage of $1,000 pension exemption. Under the alternative proposed, a taxpayer who utilized such a scheme would get no deduction when his personal income was higher, and would lose the benefit of the $1,000 pension deduction. He would also have lost the income earned on the deferred taxes. It should be noted that such a plan would be very difficult to administer, not only for Revenue Canada, but also for the employers and trustees of such plans, who would have to keep track of the various options made available to their employees.


Mr. Beatty: 1.	What is the cost to the taxpayer of the "Make a Suggestion" series of posters used by the Post Office Department?
2.	What other departments also use the posters and at what cost?
3.	(a) How does the government reconcile the purchase of the posters which are printed in the US with repeated statements about the need for a large percentage of Canadian content in government purchases (b) did the government attempt unsuccessfully to get a Canadian printer to prepare similar materials before buying foreign posters?
4.	Has anyone been prompted by the posters that the Post Office Department follow a "buy Canadian" policy in future?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	300 "Make a Suggestion" posters were purchased at 10 cents each for a total cost of $30.
2.	None.
3.	(a) and (b) This small purchase was not considered to be in conflict with government policy. The posters were offered through the National Association of Suggestion Systems and any reproduction of them by a Canadian printer may have been regarded as a violation of copyright.
4.	The Post Office practices a "Buy Canadian" policy where practicable.


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Did the Prime Minister travel from Ottawa to Toronto and return in a government-owned aircraft on Friday, April 18, 1975 for purposes of addressing a Liberal Party fund raising dinner and, if so (a) what is the full description of such aircraft (b) what is the cost per hour of keeping such an aircraft in the air (c) what are the names and addresses of all persons on board the aircraft at any time during the trip?
2.	Will the government bill the Liberal Party of Canada for the entire cost of the trip and (a) if so, what will be the amount of the bill (b) if not, for what reason?
October 14, 1975

Cabinet Ministers and members of their families, to political gatherings sponsored by the Liberal Party (b) will this policy continue in the future and (i) if so, what are all justifications for such expenditure of taxpayers' money for political purposes (ii) if not, will this practice cease immediately?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Department of Transport and the Prime Minister's and Privy Council offices as follows: 1 An MOT aircraft was used to transport the Prime Minister and his party to Toronto and return, (a) Vickers Viscount-CF-GXK (b) $500 per hour (c) See following list
Passengers - Ottawa-Toronto Name	Affiliation
Order Paper Questions Passengers - Toronto-Ottawa
Name
Rt. Hon. P. E. Trudeau Mrs. P. E. Trudeau Miss J. Sinclair Mr. R. Murdock Mr. C. Kenny Mr. P. McGuire Mr. A. Donnelly Mr. J. Moore Mr. M. Copeland Hon. R. Andras Mr. R. Errington Hon. J. Buchanan
Affiliation Prime Minister
Guest
Prime Minister's Office Prime Minister's Office Prime Minister's Office Prime Minister's Office Prime Minister's Office Indian Affairs
Minister of Manpower and Immigration Manpower and Immigration Minister, Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Rt. Hon. P. E. Trudeau Hon. D. Macdonald Mrs. D. Macdonald Mrs. E. Teitelbaum Mr. R. Murdock Mr. C. Kennedy Mr. P. McGuire Mr. A. Donnelly Hon. A. Gillespie Mrs. A. Gillespie Mr. M. Copeland Hon. M. Sharp Mrs. B. Danson Hon. E. Whelan Mr. J. Moore Miss Mary Macdonald Mr. C. Graham
Prime Minister
Minister, Energy, Mines and Resources
Energy, Mines and Resources
Prime Minister's Office
Prime Minister's Office
Prime Minister's Office
Prime Minister's Office
Minister, Industry Trade and Commerce
Indian Affairs President, Privy Council Wife, Minister of Urban Affairs Minister of Agriculture Prime Minister's Office Prime Minister's Office Guest
Note: The title has been substituted.
2.	No. (a) Not applicable, (b) The Prime Minister travels in government owned aircraft as a matter of policy in order to minimize inconvenience to the travelling public and for security reasons.
3.	(a) See part 2 (b), (b) Yes. (i) See part 2 (b). (ii) Not applicable.


Mr. Beatty: For each year since 1972, by province, how many fetuses were aborted at (a) 21 weeks or over (b) 13 weeks or over?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada reports: The number of fetuses aborted (therepeutic abortions) reported by the Yukon and the provinces is shown below:
Total No. of	Total No. of
Therapeutic	Reported Thera-
Province/Area of Residence	Abortions (1)	peutic Abortions (2)	20 Weeks or over	13 Weeks or over	1972	1973	1972	1973	1972	1973	1972	1973All Areas	38,853(3)	43,20l(4)	6.382	11.249	94	171	2,107	3.498Newfoundland	133	193	133	193	1	7	41	64Prince Edward Island	45	41	45	41	1	0	14	10Nova Scotia	837	932	*	932	*	32	*	292New Brunswick	183	341	183	341	1	1	70	104Quebec	2.847	3,141	*	3,141	*	34	*	1,082Ontario	20,272	22,603*	*	*Manitoba	1,178	1,259	1,178	1,259	12	25	468	510Saskatchewan	1,043	1,219	1,043	1,219	10	8	327	298Alberta	3,887	4,047	3,752	4,047	69	64	1,179	1,120British Columbia	8,179	9,176*	*	*Yukon	48	76	48	76	0	0	8	18Northwest Territories	44	51
Note: * Information on gestation not reported by the province.
(1)	These figures represent simple counts of the number of therapeutic abortions reported by the ten provinces and Yukon.
(2)	These figures represent the number of abortions for which demographic and medical information about patients who received therapeutic abortions is available.
(3)	Province of residence is not known for 157 therapeutic abortion cases. These 157 cases are included in figures for "All Areas" but cannot be included in the figures or individual provinces.
(4)	Province of residence is not known or 122 cases and cannot be included in the figures for individual provinces.

Order Paper Questions LANGUAGE TRAINING


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Have any persons who are not members of the Public Service taken English or French language training courses that have been paid for directly or indirectly by the government at the Berlitz School of Languages in Ottawa during the past four years and, if so (a) how many have taken French courses (b) how many have taken English courses (c) what is the total expense of public funds involved (d) what are the names and addresses of all such persons (e) what is the justification for this expense of public funds on persons who are not members of the Public Service?
2.	In each ease, is the individual related to a member of the Public Service and, if so, to whom?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	(a) 5; (b) 4; (c) and (d) Mrs. R. Poirier, $1,324.80, Winnipeg; Mrs. M. Nunas, $1,325.00, Winnipeg; Mrs. H. Nethersole, $1,681.45, Sherbrooke; Mrs. W. Dean, $1,324.80, Vancouver; Mrs. K. Prescott, $365.70, Sydney; Mrs. M. Pla-mondon, $1,612.00, Montreal; Mrs. M. Leblanc, $2,391.26, Trois-Rivieres; Mrs. S. Breton, $1,444.80, Montreal; Mrs. J. Simard, $1,204.00, Hamilton, (e) The main objective of the Bicultural Exchange Program is to promote bilingualism in the Department by offering a certain number of employees the opportunity to work in a region where the other language and culture prevail. The transfers are for a two-year period.
2.	The names listed above refer to the wives of employees who have taken part in the departmental Bicultural Exchange Programmes.
In so far as the Department of the Secretary of State is concerned: 1. (a) One, (b) None, (c) $894.00, (d) David P. Ross, Special Assistant to the Secretary of State, Lord Elgin Plaza, (e) Exempt staff. Not eligible for Language Courses offered by the P.S.C.
2.	Not relevant. David Ross is a member of the minister's staff.
Nil returns have been submitted by all other departments and agencies.


Mr. Reynolds: 1.	How many people of Mexican origin were given special permission to enter Canada to work at the Banff Springs Hotel?
2.	What (a) jobs do they hold (b) is their rate of pay?
3.	What was the (a) unemployment percentage (b) number of unemployed in Canada in the month they were allowed in?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Department of Manpower and Immigration and Statistics Canada as follows: 1. 50.
2.	(a) positions held	(b) rate of pay
Waiters and Waitresses - 29	2.25 per hour
Chambermaids	-21	2.35 per hour
3. The unemploment rate and the number of unemployed persons for the months of August and September 1974 are
as follows:	Per Cent	Number ('000)August	4.4	447September	4.5	431


Mr. Orlikow: 1.	In each of the past five years (a) what was the total number of violations under section 9(1) of the Food and Drug Act in respect to advertising of prescription drugs (b) which companies and drug products were involved?
2.	What was the dollar value at the retail level of prescription drugs in Canada in each of the past five years?
3.	Has the Department of National Health and Welfare copies of any letters sent by Upjohn Company to doctors regarding the dangers of the drug clindamycin?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	(a) None. In those cases where a complaint arose, discussions were immediately held with the company concerned and action to correct the advertisement was taken. In no instance was it necessary to go beyond this step to initiate legal proceedings, (b) Not applicable.
2.	The health protection branch of the Department of National Health and Welfare does have accurate data, for the years subsequent to 1968, but such data has been obtained through a contract with a private survey firm, whose policy, as stated in the contract, prevents disclosure of this information to the public at large.
3.	Yes. The Department of National Health and Welfare has copies of two letters sent by the Upjohn Company to Canadian physicians.


Mr. Cossitt: Since becoming Minister of National Health and Welfare, how many of his speeches has the present Minister had printed at public expense and distributed to various persons (a) to how many persons was each distributed (b) what was the approximate cost of each distribution (c) what is the total estimated cost to date of ali distributions that have taken place?


Mitchell William Sharp: Since appointment, the Minister of National Health and Welfare has delivered 67 speeches in accordance with the right of the public to be informed of government policy, and arising from the role of government to sensitize the public to particular concerns (e.g., the need for healthier lifestyles, the changing perception of women in Canadian society, etc.). The speeches were made on various occasions such as national and international conferences, and federal-provincial conferences, and in response to numer-

October 14, 1975

ous requests from associations, voluntary organizations, community groups, etc. in the health and welfare field, (a) 4,223 (including members of parliament, senators, provincial governments, various associations and organizations, news media, the general public upon request, etc.), (b) $1,638 (including printing and distribution costs), (c) $109,746 (including printing and distribution costs).


Mr. Mitges: Have charges been laid against producers who prematurely shipped milk or livestock for human consumption before the time allotted for antibiotics to pass through the animals and, if so, in how many cases, for each year 1971, 1972, 1973 and 1974?


Mitchell William Sharp: No. In addition to the responsibilities of the health protection branch, most provinces have an active inspection program in which each milk producer has his product tested, on a regular basis, for the presence of antibiotics. Violators are subject to disciplinary action under such programs.


Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Since April 1, 1965, what has been the dollar level of government expenditures by way of loan, advance, cash outlay, resource expenditure of any type or any other method or financial arrangement whatsoever through the (a) Minister of Transport (b) Department of Transport (c) Department of Public Works (d) National Harbours Board (e) any other department or agency of government related to marine affairs, exclusive of National Defence, on (i) harbour development and port facilities in the National Harbours Board ports in the St. Lawrence River east of and including the Port of Montreal (ii) channel dredging inside or outside of all NHB ports in the St. Lawrence River east of and including the Port of Montreal and in the River (iii) employer associations in the NHB ports on the St. Lawrence River east of and including the Port of Montreal for use by the associations in the ports in paying their employees?
2.	Since April 1, 1965 to date, and in each case in Part 1, what has been the dollar level of government expenditures for the Port of Halifax-Dartmouth?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by several departments as follows: 1. (a and b) (i) Not applicable, (ii) Approximately $58.5 million, (iii) $6,011,044 has been loaned to employer associations as of May 28, 1975. (c) (i) Nil. (ii) 12,490,932. (iii) Nil. (d) (i) The National Harbours Board has incurred capital expenditures in harbour development and port facilities in the National Harbours Board ports in the St. Lawrence River east of and including the port of Montreal since April 1, 1965, as follows: Montreal, $48,266,993; Trois-Rivieres, $895,757; Quebec, $15,992,238. These projects have been financed by loans from the government of Canada or by utilizing the NHB's own funds, (ii) Nil. (iii) $1,079,582. (e)
(i)	Nil. (ii) Nil. (iii) Nil.
2.	(a and b) (i) Nil. (ii) Nil. (iii) Nil. (c) (i) $136,000; (ii) $12,000; (iii) Nil. (d) (i) The National Harbours Board has incurred capital expenditures in harbour development and port facilities in the port of Halifax-Dartmouth since April 1, 1965 of $23,771,891. These projects have been financed by loans from the government of Canada or by utilizing the NHB's own funds, (ii) Nil. (iii) Nil. (e) (i) Nil; (ii) Nil; (iii) Nil.
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	With reference to the answer to Question No. 1,685 which among other things listed four contracts awarded Herbert Brune Construction Ltd. following invited tenders by the Department of Public Works (a) what is the identity of all those involved in compiling the list of those invited to tender (b) were any names of those invited to tender recommended or furnished by, or requested from Liberal Members of Parliament or by any Liberal Party executives (c) do the names of those invited to tender constitute a political patronage list?
2.	Is Herbert Brune Construction Ltd. the same company presently engaged in construction of a swimming pool at the Prime Minister's official residence, 24 Sussex Drive?
Hon C. M. Drury (Minister of Public Works): 1 (a) No
one individual is involved in compiling the list of contractors invited to tender on specific works. A selection is made from an index of competent contractors for every job. All contractors have the opportunity of being included on the index by signifying their interest to the department. The index is used for works valued up to $5,000. Above this amount, works are publicly tendered. For every job, five contractors' names are selected. These five contractors' names will not be selected again until all other competent firms on the index have had the opportunity to tender, (b) No. (c) No.
2.	Yes.


Mr. Cossitt: 
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	What groups (a) in Canada (b) outside Canada have received invitations from the government to submit proposals for demonstration projects for the United Nations Conference on Human Settlement?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
2.	(a) Who was responsible for issuing such invitations on behalf of the government (b) what criteria were followed in choosing the groups to whom invitations were issued?
3.	By province (a) how many groups were invited to submit proposals (b) how many groups had submitted proposals as of May 20, 1975 (c) how many and which proposals were accepted by May 20, 1975 (d) what is the purpose of each proposal and, in each case, what amount of financial support was promised?
4.	What is the total amount of money the government intends to spend for (a) encouragement or support of demonstration projects (i) in Canada (ii) outside Canada (b) administration of the encouragement and selection of demonstration projects (c) administration of Canadian participation in the United Nations Conference on Human Settlement (d) hosting the United Nations Conference on Human Settlement (e) other specific costs in connection with the Conference?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Ministry of State for Urban Affairs and the Department of External Affairs as follows: 1 (a) Province of Manitoba, province of Ontario and the greater Vancouver regional district, (b) None
2.	(a) The Canadian Participation Secretariat, (b) It is the intention of the Canadian Participation Secretariat to present four films at Habitat. It was felt the province of Manitoba's "Leaf Rapids" and "The Stay Option" projects, the province of Ontario's "Management of Growth in the Toronto Urban Region" project and the greater Vancouver regional district's "Livable Region Program" might be particularly relevant to the production of these films. These groups were therefore invited to submit proposals.
3.	(a) Newfoundland 0; Nova Scotia 0; New Brunswick 0; Prince Edward Island 0; Quebec 0; Ontario 1; Manitoba 2; Saskatchewan 0; Alberta 0; British Columbia 1. (b) On July 3, the date of the suspension of the program, the number of proposals from each province was as follows: Newfoundland, 3; Nova Scotia, 4; New Brunswick, 4; Prince Edward Island, 2; Quebec, 26; Ontario, 51; Manitoba, 10; Saskatchewan, 6; Alberta, 10; British Columbia, 61; Northwest Territories, 0; Federal Government, 10. (c) On May 20, 1975, fourteen proposals had been designated by the Minister of State for Urban Affairs as urban demonstration projects, (d) An Ark for P.E.I., $354,000; Land Registration and Information Service, $100,000; Mirabel Area Planning, $48,000; Appropriate Energy and Building Systems for Housing Quebec Indians, $120,000; Provident House, $90,000; Solar House, $61,000; A Solar Heating System for the Present, $11,000: Leaf Rapids, $34,000; The Stay Option, $38,000; Constant Module, $73,000; The Blood Tribe 1964-1974, $45,000; Package Reservoir, $70,000; Livable Region Program, $33,000; Turn Down Traffic Volume, $500,000.
4.	(a) (i) $1,827,000. (ii) Nil (b) Administration of CUDP was not funded as a separate item in the MSUA estimates. However, costs directly attributable to administration of the program between March 1974 and May 1975 total approximately $60,000. (c) Approved estimates for the Canadian Participation Secretariat total $3.8 million, (d) $5,100,000. (e) Treasury Board has not approved money specifically for conference preparations other than the amounts noted above.
Note: Habitat Preparations and the Canadian Urban Demonstration Program are separate activities in both concept and budget. Canada is preparing four audio-visual presentations for HABITAT and will include in them,

where appropriate, material that derives from certain CUDP projects. Selection of projects for the CUDP was independent of the selection of material for the Habitat films. The budget for the films is administered by the Canadian Participation Secretariat while funding for urban demonstration projects was a cross-government activity.


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): As of May 20, 1975, was any group of federal officials meeting regularly with provincial officials to discuss any form of limitation of (a) magazine (b) newspaper (c) radio (d) television advertising in Canada, or by media entering Canada and, if so (i) what departments or agencies were involved (ii) what provinces were involved (iii) what was the purpose of the discussions (iv) on what date did the discussions begin (v) on what date is it anticipated the discussions will conclude (vi) to what federal agency or Minister will the group make recommendations (vii) will any such recommendations be made public immediately (viii) what is the extent of consultation with representatives of the media (ix) what are the terms of reference of any such discussion?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a)
No; (b) No; (c) and (d) Since June 12, 1974 The Canadian Radio-Television Commission has been holding meetings with various federal and provincial officials to consider the question of beer, wine and cider radio and television advertising, (i) The CRTC has been in contact with the Canadian Association of Provincial Liquor Commissioners, the federal Department of Health and Welfare, the Chairmen or Presidents of Liquor Control Boards or Corporations and Provincial Ministers responsible for the Liquor Control Boards, (ii) Representatives from all the provinces were involved, (iii) The purpose of the discussion was to develop uniform standards for beer, wine and cider broadcast advertising, (iv) Discussions began on June 12, 1974. (v) Discussions are expected to conclude in autumn, 1975. (vi) The results of the consultation will be made known to the federal Department of Health and Welfare and the CRTC. (vii) Recommendations will be made public as soon as there is agreement among the provincial and federal authorities concerned, (viii) After consulting with the above-mentioned governmental representatives, further discussion will take place with broadcasters and the industry, (ix) The terms of reference for such discussion are:
1.	Section 16. (1) (b) (ii) of the broadcasting Act: "16.
(1)	In furtherance of its objects, the Commission, on the recommendation of the Executive Committee, may (b) make regulations applicable to all persons holding broadcasting licences, or to all persons holding broadcasting licences of one or more classes, (ii) respecting the character of advertising and the amount of time that may be devoted to advertising."
2.	Section 10 of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, of the Radio (AM) and (FM) Broadcasting Regulations: "Spirituous Liquors, Beer, Wine and Cider 10. (1) Subject to subsection (2), no station or network operator shall broadcast any commercial message (a) advertising, directly or indirectly, any spirituous liquor or any beer, wine or cider; or (b) sponsored by or on behalf of any person whose principal business is the manufacture or sale of spirituous liquor, beer, wine or cider. (2) Where in any
October 14, 1975

province the advertising of beer, wine or cider is permitted, a commercial message sponsored by a brewery, winery or cider-house may be broadcast in that province subject to the following conditions: (a) the advertising shall not be designed to promote the general use of beer, wine or cider, but this prohibition shall not be construed so as to prevent industry, institutional, public service or brand preference advertising; (b) no commercial message shall exceed sixty seconds in duration: (c) no device and no commercial message, other than a commercial message allowed under this subsection, shall be used to advertise, directly or indirectly, the sponsor or his product; and (d) no commercial message shall be broadcast unless it is approved by a representative of the Commission prior to broadcast. (3) For the purpose of determining whether a commercial message may be broadcast in a province pursuant to subsection (2), "cider" means cider that is considered to be an alcoholic beverage by the law of the province relating to the advertising of cider."
3.	Relevant regulations promulgated under provisions of provincial liquor Control Acts. Nil returns have been submitted by several concerned departments.


Mr. Herbert: 1.	What are the total costs included in the 1975-76 Estimates of the Department of Communications for language training?
2.	How are such costs divided between (a) salaries of personnel receiving instruction (b) salaries of instructional staff (c) additional or supplementary services to be purchased from the Public Service Commission (d) other costs?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	$363,000.
2.	(a) Not applicable; (b) $290,000; (c) $60,000; (d) $13,000.


Mr. Herbert: 1.	What are the total costs included in the 1975-76 Estimates of the Department of Justice for language training?
2.	How are such costs divided between (a) salaries of personnel receiving instruction (b) salaries of instructional staff (c) additional or supplementary services to be purchased from the Public Service Commission (d) other costs?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	$1,158,000 (estimated costs, including estimated salaries of personnel receiving instruction).
2.	(a) $453,000. (b) and (c) $651,000, which covers meals and lodging, classrooms, instructors' salaries and transportation, course materials and socio-cultural events. No cost breakdown was included in the contract with the Public Service Commission for these areas, (d) $54,000 (travel).
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Herbert: 1.	What are the total costs included in the 1975-76 Estimates of the Department of the Solicitor General for language training?
2.	How are such costs divided between (a) salaries of personnel receiving instruction (b) salaries of instructional staff (c) additional or supplementary services to be purchased from the Public Service Commission (d) other costs?
3.	Are such costs recorded separately for members of the RCMP?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	$433,052.
2.	Canadian	National	Royal CanadianPenitentiary	Parole Board	Ministry	MountedService	& Service	Secretariat	Police(a)	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A(b)	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A(c)	Nil	Nil	Nil	Nil(d)	$210,000	$43,000	$44,000	$136,0523.	Yes.


Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	Since 1965, what was Air Canada's profit or loss on (a) the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal routes (b) the Prairie routes with links to Toronto and Vancouver (c) the Maritime routes?
2.	Did CTC hearings show last year that the Prairie routes subsidized the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal routes and, if so, what is Air Canada's rationale for allowing this to happen?
3.	Does Air Canada plan to continue such subsidization in the future?
4.	In order to eliminate such subsidization, does Air Canada plan (a) to raise the air fares on its Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal routes (b) to reduce the number of short-haul flights?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: l.(a),
(b), (c) This information is considered to be proprietary. To release this kind of information while other airlines are not required to do so would jeopardize Air Canada's competitive position both on existing or potential operations.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	(a), (b) Not applicable.


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	Is it the intention of the government to (a) discontinue the National Film Board Programme Challenge for Change and, if so (i) on what date (ii) for what reason (b) significantly change the Programme and, if so (i) in what way (ii) on what date (iii) for what reason?
2.	Was a report prepared recently, by or on behalf of the government, respecting the future of the Programme and, if so (a) by whom (b) for

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
what reason (c) to whom was it submitted (d) was the Privy Council Office involved and, if so, in what specific way and for what reason?


Hon. James Hugh Faulkner (Secretary of State):: 1. (a) No. Following a successful initial five year phase, the government has approved the Challenge for Change program for an additional three year, (i) Not applicable, (ii) Not applicable, (b). No. (i) Not applicable, (ii) Not applicable. (iii) Not applicable.
2.	(a), (b), (c) and (d). In the light of the expiration of the mandate of the program, and after consultation with the member departments of the Challenge for Change Interdepartmental Committee, the Secretary of State prepared a report and submitted it to cabinet. As a member of the Interdepartmental Committee, the Privy Council office participated in these consultations, and with the agreement of the other departmental members and the National Film Board, an official of the Privy Council office serves as chairman of the Challenge for Change Interdepartmental Committee, as has been the case since the beginning of the program.


Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Did the Chief of Operations, Department of National Revenue, Customs and Excise, in the District Port of Vancouver in an affidavit on June 21, 1973, relating to an action in the Supreme Court of British Columbia state, that according to section 663(2) of the Canada Shipping Act a foreign ship (non-Canadian and non-British registry) which loads passengers at one Canadian port and proceeds by way of another Canadian port to a foreign port does not contravene the Act and, if so (a) does this represent government policy (b) is it applicable to all ports in Canada, and, if not, on what date was it altered, mitigated or rescinded (c) does the Minister of Transport concur in the statement?
2.	Will the Minister review the statement and, if not, for what reason?
3.	In what way does the Minister view the manning of foreign ships loading passengers at one Canadian port and proceeding by way of another Canadian port to a foreign port with Indonesian and other non-Canadian nationality crews?
4.	Does the Minister have any estimate or approximation of the number of Canadian seamen who have been deprived of employment by the practice outlined in the affidavit and (a) if so, what is the estimate or approximation (b) if not, for what reason?
5.	What steps is the Minister and the government contemplating to rectify the situation whereby Canadian seamen are being displaced by foreign crews in cases such as outlined in Parts (1) and (3)?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Departments of National Revenue and Transport as follows: 1. Yes. (a) Yes. (b) Yes. (c) As the affidavit involved only a statement of the statutory provisions affecting the situation, ministerial concurrence was not required.
2.	The affidavit was filed in the Supreme Court of British Columbia by the owners of the vessel and, as the department does not have a copy, it has not been reviewed by the Minister of National Revenue.
3.	The manning of foreign ships engaged in international voyages is subject to the law of the flag state.
Note: While the Canada Shipping Act comes under the purview of the Minister of Transport, the provisions of Part XV are administered by the Department of National Revenue (Customs and Excise).

4.	No. Canadian seamen have the opportunity of employment but their employment on international voyages is not mandatory for the reason given in 3 above. The Ministry of Transport does not keep records showing the nationality of seamen in vessels of foreign registry.
5.	See answers 3 and 4.


Mr. MacKay: Will the Minister of Transport provide the figures of the cost of the strike at Charles de Gaulle International Airport in Paris, France, by Air Canada employees with regard to loss of revenues and extra expenses incurred by the airline in other arrangements being made for passengers?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: The immediate cost of the strike is estimated to be approximately $350,000.


Mr. Beatty: 1.	With respect to the incentive offer of $172,050 made in August 1972 by DREE to Rapp Lumber Products in Pembroke, Ontario, what was the reason for the grant when the market for its produce was already being adequately served by other firms in Ontario?
2.	Does the government intend to recover the money given to Rapp Lumber Products as the Company had indicated to the government that its entire output would be destined for export markets?
3.	Does the government intend to compensate other manufacturers in Ontario for the damage done to their domestic sales by the oversaturation of the market resulting from the opening of the new facility?


Mitchell William Sharp: The reply for the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is as follows: 1. The incentive offered to Rapp Package (Canada) Inc. was designed to create new employment in the Pembroke area, which had been designated for special action by DREE to stimulate economic development. The department's evaluation of the project indicated that it would not create serious problems for existing Canadian companies manufacturing similar products because its output was destined for U.S. markets. The company's production was, in fact, initially exported to the U.S. until changes in economic and other circumstances required it to enter the Canadian market. It is understood that the company is actively investigating ways to regain its position in the U.S. market.
2.	It was not a condition of the department's offer that the company had to export all of its production to the U.S. Consequently, the department is not aware of any grounds on which it could seek recovery of the incentive.
3.	There is no legislative basis on which the department could provide such compensation.


Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	What is the average stage length in miles of Air Canada's route structure?
October 14, 1975

2.	What are the comparative figures for (a) CP Air (b) Delta Airlines (c) Northwest Airlines (d) Braniff Airlines (e) Pan American Airlines (f) Western Airlines (g) Eastern Airlines (h) American Airlines?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Average stage length scheduled flights total systems. Airline, Air Canada; miles, 563.
2.	Average stage length scheduled flights total systems.
	Airline	Miles
*(a)	Canadian Pacific	933**(b)	Delta	425.8"(c)	North West	631.7"(d)	Braniff	524.4"(e)	Pan American	1347.2"(f)	Western	595.4"(g)	Eastern	511.1"(h)	American	775.8
'Period given for Canadian airlines is the calendar year 1974. "Period given for U.S.A. airlines is the 12 month period ending 30 September 1974.


Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	Has the draft federal petroleum product allocation plan been approved by Cabinet?
2.	What criteria were used in determining who was placed in the "critical", "essential" and "non-essential" categories?
3.	Were farmers and the food processing industry placed in the "critical" category and trucking placed in the "essential" category and, if so, for what reasons?
4.	Does the government plan to upgrade trucking into the "critical" category since the industry transports much of the farmers' products to the food processing industries and, if not, for what reason?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Energy Supplies Allocation reports as follows: 1. The draft petroleum products allocation plan has not been specifically approved by the cabinet, nor is there any requirement that it be so approved. However, the plan was discussed with all interested departments and agencies of government and received the approval of their officials.
2.	To determine the wholesale customers belonging to the critical category the following criteria were used: the maintenance of health and basic essentials to life; and the protection of individuals and their property. The following criterion was used to determine those wholesale customers who belong in the essential category: the maintenance of the viability of the Canadian economy. The following criterion was used to determine those wholesale customers belonging to the non-essential category: the maintenance of the standard of living enjoyed in Canada.
3.	With respect to propulsion products, i.e. motor gasoline and diesel fuel, farmers were placed in the critical category. The food processing industry was placed in the critical category with respect to heating oils required to process food. The trucking industry was placed in the essential category with respect to propulsion products. The critical need for propulsion for farmers in sowing and
Order Paper Questions
harvesting crops is obvious. The same can be said for the need for heat for food processing, a need which must be met promptly and continuously if food is to be available to Canada's population. The same cannot be said for the trucking industry as a whole. It is recognized that trucks carry products of a critical nature, but they also carry products considered non-essential, such as toys, furniture, automobile parts, etc.
4.	The government does not intend to upgrade the trucking industry to the critical category. Provisions are made in the program for the petroleum industry to supply additional products to those customers in the essential category on an emergency basis. All such deliveries are subject to post facto audits to determine if the wholesale customer in fact needed the additional product. Obviously trucking firms that deal solely with products of the critical category will be similarly treated in terms of fuel supply but it cannot be assumed that since some products they carry are critical, all truckers should be considered critical.


Mr. O'Sullivan: 1.	What is the budget for the fiscal year 1975-76 of the Federal Educational Technology Programme of the Department of Communications?
2.	How many public servants work in connection with the Programme?
3.	Which provinces have signed agreements in connection with the Programme and, in each case, what are the provisions of such agreements?
4.	What are the names and locations of institutions which have received funding under the Programme and, in each case, what was the amount?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	$330,000 (April 1, 1975 to September 30, 1975)
2.	Fifteen full time public servants.
3.	The Provinces of Nova Scotia, Alberta, Newfoundland and the Maritime Provinces jointly, have signed agreements in connection with the Program. Brief summaries of these are given below. Alberta: On March 18, 1974 an agreement was concluded for a joint program activity to evaluate a range of audio-visual equipment both in the laboratory of the National Film Board and in the schools of the province. This activity tested some 12 new types of audio-visual equipment including video tape recorders and film strip players, and has led to the production under a single cover, of a report which correlates the technological evaluations of these equipment with their educational use. The activities now have been concluded. Nova Scotia: Nova Scotia on March 6, 1974 concluded an agreement with the Federal Government for a joint program that would contribute to the formulation of a comprehensive educational technology plan for Nova Scotia. This agreement was for a multi-phased series of studies with a commitment to undertake only the first phase. The first phase was completed in March, 1975. Newfoundland: Newfoundland and Labrador concluded an agreement on October 3, 1975 for a joint program of studies with the Federal Government to study educational computing in the province. This study, which has now been completed, has provided a detailed cost and technical evaluation for vari-

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
ous systems that could satisfy the educational computing needs of provincial high schools. These results have been incorporated into the Newfoundland Task Force study on future computer usage in the Province. Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador: since the 22 of July 1974 have been participating along with the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission, the Association of Atlantic Universities and Federal Government in a multiphased joint program of studies to develop a plan that will permit the sharing of Atlantic Universities computing resources. The first phase of the program will be completed by September, 1975.
4.	None.


Mr. Herbert: 1.	What monies and under what terms has any grant been either committed or paid to parties in Cuba for the construction of a fish processing plant?
2.	Have representations been received from the Canadian fishing industry concerning such a grant and does the government foresee any affect on the Canadian fishing industry?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as the Export Development Corporation is concerned: 1. It has not committed or paid a grant to parties in Cuba for the construction of a fish processing plant.
2.	No.


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Agriculture presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured? Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Public Works): Agriculture	PhysicalBuilding Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionBank of Nova Scotia 427 Preston Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,409	10 yrs.	24/7/73	1/7/73	29/6/73Beach Foundry 77 Spencer Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,196	2 yrs.	22/7/74	1/12/74	20/11/72'Sieveright 1501 Sieveright Road Ottawa, Ontario	$ 15	5 yrs.	23/5/74	1/3/74	4/2/74Can Labour Congress 2841 Riverside Drive Ottawa, Ontario	$ 648	10 yrs.	14/1/74	1/11/73	12/10/73
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Communications presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Mitchell William Sharp: Communications
Physical
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing Starting	Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date Date	tionTrebla 473 Albert St. Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,157	12 yrs.	N/L 1/2/71	1/2/71Commonwealth 77 Metcalfe St. Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,307	4 yrs.	30/8/73 1/9/73	15/8/73Palef Building	$ 2,819	8 yrs.	13/5/74 1/4/74	27/4/74116 Lisgar St. Ottawa, Ontario	Floor	Journal 11	$159,156	8 yrs.	N/L 2 - 6 16/1/75	9/4/75Phase 4	7 & 8 23/1/75	15/2/75300 Slater Street	9 24/1/75	26/3/75Ottawa, Ontario	10 31/1/75	28/2/7511 31/1/75	5/3/7512 31/1/75	14/3/7513 4/2/75	21/3/7514 7/2/75	26/3/7515 10/2/75	11/4/7516 7/3/75	11/4/7517 21/3/75	11/4/7518 17/2/75	11/4/7519 26/2/75	11/4/7520 17/4/75	15/4/75
The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupany.

October 14, 1975

**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each
case?	"
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Consumer and Corporate Affairs
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionCanadian 219 Laurier Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$	3,860	13 yrs.	28/10/65	29/6/65	1/7/65Maple Leaf 227 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$	979	13 yrs.	9/6/67	29/6/65	1/7/65Kcnson 225 Metcalfe Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	3,005	5 yrs.	21/5/74	1/2/73	1/2/73C.K.C.H. 72 Laval	$	3,173	lyr.	11/10/74	1/5/74	30/5/74


[Stage Direction]
Building Name & Address
Fraser
130 Bentley Avenue Ottawa, Ontario
Conners
211 Montcalm Street Hull, P.Q.
Kenting Hangar Uplands Airport Ottawa, Ontario
Trebla
473 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario
717 Belfast Road Ottawa, Ontario Connelly 2487 Kaladar Ottawa, Ontario
City Centre
880 Wellington Street
Ottawa, Ontario
City Centre 880 Wellington Street Ottawa, Ontario Sperry Gyroscope 45 Spencer Street Ottawa, Ontario
Order Paper Questions
Monthly
Rent
$	1,508
[Stage Direction]
$	1,263
$	883
$	5,669
$	51
$	4,920
$	100
$	580
Lease Term 20 yrs.
11 yrs.
5 yrs.
14 yrs.
10 yrs. 10 yrs.
5 yrs.
5 yrs.
3 yrs.
Signing
Date
N/L
3/1/67
14/11/72
N/L
6/8/74
25/8/69
1/10/74
1/10/74
11/5/72
Starting
Date
1/2/75
1/11/66
1/7/71
1/11/69
1/4/74
7/10/68
1/10/73
1/10/73
1/1/72
Physical
Occupation
1/2/75
1/11/66
2/6/71
1/11/71**
29/3/74
1/10/68
1/10/68*
1/10/68
1/1/69*
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?


Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of the Environment presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each
case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 5. On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Environment
Energy, Mines and Resources
Building Name & Address
Monthly	Lease
Rent	Term
Signing
Date
Warner	$	2,072	15 yrs.	N/L
2464 Sheffield Road Ottawa, Ontario
Starting
Date
1/3/72
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Physical Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionPhysical Occupa- tion	Canadian Linen 131 Greber Blvd. Gatineau Pointe, P.Q.	$ 1,107	15 yrs.	11/9/72	1/9/72	1/9/721/3/72	St. Gelais Pink Road Lucerne, P.Q.	$ 76	11 yrs.	N/L	1/11/74	18/11/74
8130

October 14, 1975
	Order Paper Questions				Physical
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionFontaine 200 Sacre-Cceur Blvd. Hull, P.Q.	$ 78,840	15 yrs.	22/6/72	1/9/71	1/9/71Place Vincent Massey St. Joseph Blvd. Hull, P.Q.	$108,720	20 yrs.	21/10/73	1/7/73	5/6/73Trebla 473 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,146	14 yrs.	N/L	1/11/69	1/11/71* **'Sir Guy Carleton 161 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 4,394	11 yrs.	5/5/67	29/6/66	1/10/68*"Palef 116 Lisgar Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,821	2 yrs.	13/5/74	1/2/74	1/9/71*Nicol 331 Cooper Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 7,861	11 yrs.	26/11/66	5/12/66	Various 16/6/72*' 15/1/72 1/4/74Majestic 396 Cooper Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 8,155	10 yrs.	20/3/74	1/9/73	1/10/68*Betcherman 10 Beechwood Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 413	7 yrs.	30/6/69	1/7/69	1/7/69Dustbane 25 Pickering Place Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,662	7 yrs.	25/4/74	1/11/73	1/11/68*Dibblee Highway 31 Ottawa, Ontario	$ 5,466	9 yrs.	18/2/70	5/1/70	1/1/70Sperry Gyroscope 45 Spencer Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 3,126	3 yrs.	11/5/72	1/1/72	1/1/69*
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of External Affairs presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1 to 5.
Building Name and Address All Crown-Owned Space.


DEPARTMENT OF INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Indian Affairs and Northern Development					Physical
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionLiverpool Court 1570 Liverpool Court Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,927	7 yrs.	13/3/74	1/12/73	1/12/73Centennial Towers 400 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 58,540	20 yrs.	28/11/65	7/7/65	1/7/65Centennial Towers 400 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 22,039	9 yrs.	30/11/65	1/8/65	1/8/65Centennial Towers 400 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 11,744	15 yrs.	21/12/65	10/9/65	10/9/65Centennial Towers 400 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 6,587	year to year	16/2/66	13/12/65	13/12/65Commonwealth 77 Metcalfe Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 591	8 yrs.	26/7/73	1/4/73	1/4/73Export Development 110 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,419	8 yrs.	31/5/72	1/11/71	10/6/74Burnside 15 1 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,954	8 yrs.	29/1/73	1/2/73	22/1/73Empire 124 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,642	2 yrs.	11/4/74	1/12/73	1/12/73Empire 124 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 247	2 yrs.	11/4/74	1/12/73	1/12/73Journal, Phase I	$ 43,022	8 yrs.	11/9/74	1/3/74	15/5/74
364 Lauricr Avenue Ottawa, Ontario
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in
October 14, 1975

effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY, TRADE AND COMMERCE-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Industry, Trade and Commerce
Physical
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Occupa- tionPlace de Ville -Podium 300 Sparks Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	17,055	15 yrs.	N/L	1/11/71	1/11/71Place de Ville Tower "B", 112 Kent St. Ottawa, Ontario	$ 47 $ 517 $ 7S $116,084	20 yrs. 15 yrs. 20 yrs. 20 yrs.	22/8/69 22/8/69 22/8/69 6/3/69	12/9/67	12/9/67Place de Ville Tower "A", 320 Queen St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	4,801	3 yrs.	30/1/73	1/11/72	15/11/71*Kent-Albert 150 Kent Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	13,951	9 yrs.	17/11/67	1/4/67	1/4/67Kent-Albert 150 Kent Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	3,977	10 yrs.	18/2/70	1/8/69	1/8/69Kent-Albert 150 Kent Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	355	10 yrs.	18/2/70	1/8/69	1/8/69Fuller 75 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	465	9 yrs.	20/6/72	1/11/71	1/10/74**Journal 11 (Ph 4) 300 Slater St., Ottawa, Ont.	$	53,052	8 yrs.	N/L	-/1/75	-IMISRiverside Medical 2211 Riverside Drive Ottawa, Ontario	$	1,960	16 yrs.	3/1/67	15/5/67	-/10/73**Postal Station "F"	$	806	11 yrs.	N/L	22/11/71	22/11/71
1339 Baseline Road Ottawa, Ontario
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date
because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
Order Paper Questions
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Justice presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionVarette 130 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 6,756	8 yrs.	2/2/72	1/10/71	1/10/71Varette 130 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,936	6 yrs.	28/11/73	1/7/73	1/7/73


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Labour presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each
case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Labour
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionSir Wilfrid Laurier 340 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 42,548	23 yrs.	29/12/67	1/6/67	1/6/67Wesley 120 Holland Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 655	10 yrs.	10/5/71	1/4/71	1/4/71
29669-31%

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): X. In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Manpower and Immigration presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Mitchell William Sharp: Manpower and immigration	Physical
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Occupa- tionWoolworth 156 rue Principalc Hull, P.Q.	$	2,737	5 yrs.	28/8/68	15/7/68	1/11/72**Woolworth 156 rue Principalc Hull, P.Q.	$	400	2 yrs.	29/12/72	1/11/72	1/11/72Woolworth 156 rue Principale Hull, P.Q.	S	500	1 month	9/7/74	1/5/74	1/11/72*Major et A1 164 rue Wellington Hull, P.Q.	$	479	2 yrs.	18/4/73	1/5/73	12/4/73Union du Canada 325 Dalhousie St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	1,480	4 yrs.	30/8/70	1/8/70	1/8/70Union du Canada 325 Dalhousie St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	17,383	15 yrs.	7/3/69	1/2/68	1/2/68French Canadian Institute 316 Dalhousie St. Ottawa, Ontario	s	1,791	7 yrs.	17/6/69	26/9/68	1/9/68Bourque Memorial 305 Rideau St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	55.422	1 2 yrs.	10/3/65	1/11/64	1/11/64Bourque Memorial 305 Rideau St. Ottawa, Ontario	s	1,973	12 yrs	16/3/69	21/10/65	21/10/65Bourque Memorial 305 Rideau St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	495	10 yrs.	9/9/68	1/8/67	1/8/67Shirden 312 Rideau St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	1,954	9 yrs.	12/10/66	4/4/66	1/4/66Shirden 312 Rideau St. Ottawa, Ontario	s	359	8 yrs.	15/9/67	9/2/67	1/2/67Cumberland Place 400 Cumberland St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	31,873	8 yrs.	28/1/74	1/12/73	31/8/73Burnside 151 Slater St. Ottawa, Ontario	$	892	8 yrs.	8/2/73	1/2/73	15/1/73Laurier-O'Connor 251 Laurier Ave. Ottawa, Ontario.	$	4,076	7 yrs.	N/L	18/9/74	18/9/74Place Vanier	$	1,516	15 yrs.	1/11/71	1/11/71	16/11/74*-
Tower B 355 River Rd Vanier, Ontario

The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of National Defence presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: National Defence Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionOgilvy 112 Besserer Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 7,905	5 yrs.	3/11/70	1/6/70	1/6/70Elgar 200 Elgin Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 29,426	13 yrs.	15/12/66	10/5/66	1/5/66Greenberg 100 Gloucester Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 339	9 yrs. 8 mos.	10/11/72	1/2/72	3/1/72Greenberg 100 Gloucester Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,831	10 yrs.	16/10/72	1/10/71	10/10/71General 185 Somerset Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,264	7 yrs.	21/8/74	1/10/73	1/10/73Jelnor 171 Nepean Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 9.695	12 yrs.	7/11/68	1/4/68	1/4/68Halifax 309 Cooper Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 8,610	5 yrs.	N/L	1/8/73	1/12/70*Halifax 309 Cooper Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,269	5 yrs.	N/L	1/8/73	1/12/70*O'Connor 190 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 19,615	8 yrs.	28/4/70	8/11/68	1/11/68Vered 245 Cooper Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 13,798	7 yrs.	29/11/74	1/3/74	29/1/71*Narono 354-66 Laurier Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 37,644	19 yrs.	13/1/70	1/8/69	1/8/69
October 14, 1975

Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionPlace Vanier, Tower "B" 355 River Road Ottawa, Ontario	$ 4,508	3 yrs.	12/10/72	1/8/72	1/8/72Grain 270 Carling Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,740	5 yrs.	21/3/73	1/10/72	1/10/67"
* The Physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original least for the premise was renegotiated during the clients's occupancy.
** The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of National Revenue presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: National Revenue-Customs and Excise
Building Name & Address Sir Richard Scott 191 Laurier Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	Monthly Rent S 43,488	Lease Term 8 yrs.	Signing Date N/L	Starting Date 19/8/74	Physical Occupa- tion 23/9/74Teron 219 Argyle Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 1,428	7 yrs.	11/1/74	1/6/73	26/1/74* **National Revenue 1117-1125 Newmarket Ottawa, Ontario	$ 750	5 yrs.	24/9/74	1/5/74	1/5/74Cumberland Place $ 31.164 400 Cumberland Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	8 yrs.	28/1/74	1/12/73	14/9/73Century 360 Lisgar Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 30,071	1 2 yrs.	11/3/70	3/6/68	7/2/73*
* The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date dhown is for a lease currently in
Order Paper Questions
effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
** The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Public Works presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each
case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Public Works
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionPlace de Ville Tower "A" 320 Queen Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 802	10 yrs.	28/9/73	1/11/71	1/10/71Lord Elgin Plaza 66 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 31,361	8 yrs.	2/10/72	1/4/71	1/7/72"Lord Elgin Plaza 66 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 19,253	8 yrs.	2/10/72	1/8/71	1/7/72 =Place Vanier Tower"B" 355 River Road Vanier, Ontario	$ 446	15 yrs.	1/11/71	1/11/71	15/11/71City Centre 880 Wellington Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,024	5 yrs.	26/6/74	1/10/73	16/12/74=Teron Bldg. 219 Argyle Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 512	7 yrs.	11/1/74	1/6/73	1/6/68
* The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.

Order Paper Questions
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF REGIONAL ECONOMIC EXPANSION-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Regional Economic Expansion presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured? * **


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Regional Economic Expansion					Physical
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionSir Guy Carleton 161 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$ 37,239	11 yrs.	5/5/67	29/6/66	1/7/66Sir Guy Carleton 161 Laurier Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 18,957	6 yrs.	28/7/72	1/7/72	1/7/66*
The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Secretary of State presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Mitchell William Sharp: Secretary of State Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tionKent-Albcrt 150 Kent Street Ottawa, Ontario	S	1,151	10 yrs.	18/2/70	1/8/69	1/8/69Commonwealth 77 Metcalfe Street Ottawa, Ontario	S	563	5 yrs.	30/7/73	1/7/73	11/6/73Commonwealth 77 Metcalfe Street Ottawa, Ontario	S	1,147	2 yrs.	7/7/73	1/7/73	7/6/73Fuller 75 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	S	3,130	7 yrs.	10/3/73	1/1/73	1/1/73Lord Elgin Plaza 66 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	S	4,813	6 yrs.	28/11/73	1/12/73	31/10/72"Lord Elgin Plaza 66 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	s	32,024	8 yrs.	1/10/72	1/9/72	1/9/72Sir Richard Scott 191 Laurier Avenue Ottawa. Ontario	s	38,720	8 yrs.	N/L	19/7/74	7/7/74Export Development 1 10 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario	s	2,609	8 yrs.	31/5/72	1/11/71	16/8/71National 130 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	s	42,167	15 yrs.	12/6/68	1/4/67	19/11/71'National 130 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario	s	962	10 yrs.	16/11/67	1/5/67	1/5/67National 130 Slater Street Ottawa. Ontario	s	227	8 yrs.	12/11/69	1/4/69	1/4/69Trafalgar 110 Argyle Street Ottawa, Ontario	s	1,279	2 yrs.	6/1/75	1/3/74	1/3/71
The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of the Solicitor General presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?

October 14, 1975

5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Sollicitor General
Physical
Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Occupa- tionKent-Albert 150 Kent Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	1,374	3 yrs.	20/9/74	1/6/73	1/6/70=Imperial 25 1 Bank Street	$	2,885	7 yrs.	16/10/74	1/6/74	10/5/74Ottawa, Ontario Kenson 225 Metcalfe Street Ottawa, Ontario	$	1,053	5 yrs.	24/5/73	1/2/73	24/7/74-Sir Wilfrid Laurier 340 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$	7,799	23 yrs.	9/1/66	1/6/67	1/6/67Journal Ph. I 365 Laurier Avenue West Ottawa, Ontario	$	6,760	3 yrs.	14/11/72	1/10/72	15/9/72Laurentian Tower	$	3,138	2 yrs.	30/12/74	1/10/74	16/9/74
44 Bayswater Ottawa, Ontario
Order Paper Questions
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Physical Occupa-& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionPlace Vanier	$ 14,861	15 yrs.	1/11/71	1/11/71	8/8/71Tower "B" Vanier, Ontario Place Vanier	$ 3,031	12 yrs.	11/12/70	19/9/69	17/9/69Tower "A" Vanier, Ontario Place Vanier Tnu/pr " A "	$ 1,837	12 yrs.	1/6/72	1/6/72	1/5/72
Tower "A" Vanier, Ontario


TREASURY BOARD-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL AREA
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Treasury Board presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each
case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: *The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF STATE FOR URBAN AFFAIRS-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Ministry of State for Urban Affairs presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Urban Affairs and Housing
Physical
Building Name Monthly Lease Signing Starting Occupa-
& Address	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionUnited Trust 1 Nicholas Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 4,042	4 yrs.	4/7/73	1/1/73 27/12/72	Lord Elgin Plaza	$ 2,332	6 yrs.	28/11/73	1/12/73	1/12/73
66 Slater Street Ottawa, Ontario
Treasury Board Building Name & Address	Monthly Rent	Lease Term	Signing Date	Starting Date	Physical Occupa- tion60 Queen Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 2,805	1 yr.	24/9/74	1/8/74	15/2/74=Canadian 219 Laurier Avenue Ottawa, Ontario	$ 3,860	13 yrs.	28/10/65	29/6/65	15/11/74=Place Bell Canada 160 Elgin Street Ottawa, Ontario	$107,440	8 yrs.	4/6/73	1/12/71	28/5/72 =222 Somerset Street Ottawa, Ontario	S 3,373	2 yrs.	7/4/75	1/12/74	4/4/74=
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Veterans Affairs presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Veterans Affairs					Physical
Building Name	Monthly	Lease	Signing	Starting	Occupa-& ddress	Rent	Term	Date	Date	tionTrebla 473 Albert Street Ottawa, Ontario	$ 3,441	14 yrs.	N/L	1/11/69	5/10/71* **Billings Bridge Plaza 2271 Riverside Drive Ottawa, Ontario	$ 7,147	12 yrs.	19/5/67	16/11/66	1/11/66
*The physical occupation date is prior to the starting date because the starting date shown is for a lease currently in effect. The original lease for the premises was renegotiated during the client's occupancy.
**The physical occupation date is after the starting date because there has been a change in tenancy during the lease term.
N/L Non-executed lease.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-AIRCRAFT SUPPORT TO OTHER DEPARTMENTS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Is it the policy of the government to require the Department of National Defence to meet the requirements for aircraft support of other departments?
2.	For the fiscal year 1975-76, what departments have requested aircraft support from the Department of National Defence and, in each case (a) how many hours and/or days of actual flying time were requested (b) what type of aircraft was sought (c) for what purpose (d) what has been the approved level of support agreed upon by DND if different from the requested amount?


Hon. James Richardson (Minister of National Defence):: 1. Government policy is to provide Canadian Forces aircraft support to other government departments concerned with Canadian Sovereignty and security as set out in the White Paper, Defence in the 70's. However, such support assistance is contingent on DND being able to fulfill its primary defence roles.
2.	(a), (b), (c), (d). For fiscal year 1975/76 the Department of Environment has requested DND for assistance in support of its surveillance and control operations which includes various forms of environmental services and fisheries and marine services. DND plans to cooperate to the fullest extent on the understanding that many of DOE's requirements may have to be ancillary to DND primary defence roles. A total of 915 flying hours (Tracker and Argus Aircraft) are dedicated to DOE programs. For the remainder of DOE's requests it is planned to make arrangements, if possible, to fulfill the requirements with other DND multi-tasked missions. In addition DND pro-

vides short notice airlift support to all other departments, resources permitting. However, the cost for this support is in the majority of cases recoverable from the departments concerned.


SWIMMING POOL AT PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	What is a full and detailed description of any involvement whatsoever with the swimming pool at the Prime Minister's residence, 24 Sussex Drive, by the National Capital Commission?
2.	What are all connections, if any, directly or indirectly that Mr. Ed Gallant, Chairman of the National Capital Commission has had with this matter, including dates, persons dealt with, etc.?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as the National Capital Commission is concerned:
1.	See reply to Question No. 2691, paragraph 2(b). The pool's design was approved by the Commission's Advisory Committee on Design on November 28, 1974.
2.	See reply to Question No. 2691, paragraph 2 (a) and
(b).


ESCAPE OF PRISONERS FROM WILLIAM HEAD MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON
Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	Did three prisoners escape from William Head Maximum Security Prison at William Head on Vancouver Island in late April or early May,
1975?
2.	Was a security fence recently installed at a cost of $100,000 which was intended to upgrade the outer perimeter protective features of the prison from medium to maximum security standards and, if so, did two of the prisoners escape by walking around the end of the fence?
3.	Is the Prison exposed on the waterside by some 3 1/2 miles of unfenced and otherwise insecure waterfront?
4.	Is any thought being given to relocating the Institution instead of spending some $5,000,000 to "upgrade" the site to afford the law abiding public of the use of some of the finest parkland in the area?


William Warren Allmand: It should be noted that William Head Institution is not a maximum security institution; it was upgraded from minimum security to medium security on September 1, 1974. 1. Three inmates walked away, during the month of March 1975, from William Head Institution.
2.	A security fence was installed as one item of various works planned to change the institutional operations from minimum security (unrestricted movement) to medium security with some restriction of movement. In all cases the admimistrative inquiries were unable to ascertain the exact escape route taken by these inmates.
3.	The waterfront of the peninsula on which this institution is located is not fenced. The rough exposed shoreline and the elaborate internal patrol road system are considered an effective deterrent to escape for the inmate transferred to that institution. However, the Canadian Penitentiary Service is planning to form guard-dog foot patrol teams within the perimeter to reinforce the institutional preventive security controls.
4.	There are no plans to relocate the institution as to do so would be much more costly. Upgrading consists of replacing existing buildings and bringing services such as
October 14, 1975

water and sewage treatment up to a standard required by environmental authorities.


PERCENTAGE OF FINANCIAL ASSETS OF INDIVIDUALS HELD IN RESERVES
[Stage Direction]
Questions No. 2,701-Mr. Herbert:
Are any statistics available or have any estimates been compiled to indicate what percentage of financial assets of individuals are held in various reserves and has there been any indication of an appreciable shift in such holdings in the past ten years?
Mitchell William Sharp: It is not understood what the term "reserves" refers to in the context of this question. The most recent data on financial assets holdings by individuals is contained in the Statistics Canada publication entitled "Incomes, Assets and Indebtedness of Families in Canada", catalogue No. 13-547. This information was compiled from a survey conducted in the spring of 1970. It is not possible to determine the precise shift in the composition of holdings of financial assets of individuals over the past ten years due to the infrequency of the Statistics Canada surveys. The survey preceding the 1970 survey which can be referred to for comparison purposes is entitled "Incomes, Assets and Indebtedness of Non-Farm Families in Canada." The catalogue number for this survey, which was conducted in 1964, is 13-525.


RADIOACTIVE WASTES
Mr. Francis: 1.	What is the nature and extent of the pick-up service provided by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited for radioactive wastes which require special waste management?
2.	Has such service been cancelled for hospitals?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Atomic Energy of Canada Limited does not provide a regular pick-up service for radioactive wastes which require special waste management. Responsibility for the transportation of radioactive wastes rests with the producer of such wastes. AECL may provide such transportation through arrangement with the producer.
2.	Since AECL Does not provide a pick-up service, cancellation of such service is not possible.


CIVIC HOSPITAL OTTAWA-RADIOACTIVITY
Mr. Francis: 1.	Has an investigation been carried out on the incident at the Civic Hospital in Ottawa in March of this year when a person broke into the hospital's storage place for radioactive materials and is reported to have caused damage by spilling radioactive materials?
2.	What was the result of such investigation?
3.	What precautions have been recommended to the Civic Hospital to make sure this does not happen again?
4.	What precautions, if any, are other hospitals in Canada taking to prevent a similar incident?
5.	Was anyone injured or contaminated by radioactive materials as a result of the incident and, if so, what are the details?
6.	How was the area of the Civic Hospital made safe again from radioactive contamination?
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. Yes.
2.	The investigation showed that the lock on the radioisotope laboratory door was defective, that the contamination was isolated to one area of one wing of the hospital, that all radioactive material removed from the laboratory was accounted for, and that nobody was exposed to any significant hazard as a result of the incident.
3.	Recommendations were made to the Civic Hospital concerning improvement of the physical security of the radioisotope laboratory.
4.	As a condition of their licences, hospitals are required to keep radioisotope laboratories locked at all times when not being used. However, as a result of the Civic Hospital incident, the Atomic Energy Control Board is currently reviewing its guidelines on physical security which will be communicated to hospitals and other institutions using radioactive material.
5.	The only person contaminated by radioactive material as a result of the incident was the person who removed the material from the laboratory. He apparently became contaminated when he broke open one of the glass vials which he had removed. He was thoroughly showered and washed within hours with the consequent removal of the contamination. No injuries resulted.
6.	The affected area of the Civic Hospital was thoroughly washed to remove the radioactive contamination. A few items, which were difficult to wash such as a chair and a telephone, were stored until the radioactivity decayed to acceptable levels.


MONITORING OF HOSPITAL RADIOACTIVE WASTES
Mr. Francis: With respect to the answer to Question No. 1,720 which stated that "radioactive wastes which are permitted to be poured down the sinks of hospitals generally have short radioactive half-lives", and that "they rapidly decay before they can accumulate to detectable levels in the water supply and the life cycle of humans" (a) what are such wastes that are disposed of in this way (b) what are the half-lives of such wastes (c) what, if any, are the substances disposed of in this way that are not "general" (d) what are the "detectable levels" referred to by the Atomic Energy Control Board (e) how are these levels monitored near hospitals to make sure that they are below "detectable levels" (f) how are these levels monitored to make sure that they do not get into the life cycle of human beings?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: (a) Examples of the wastes referred to in this question are solutions of iodine, technetium or gold, (b) Iodine 131 has a half-life of eight days; technetium 99m has a half-life of 6 hours; and gold 198 has a half-life of 65 hours, (c) Some materials are used less frequently than the above isotopes because of recent changes in clinical needs. Some radioisotopes included in this category would be iron 59 (halflife 45 days; cobalt 57 (half-life 270 days); chromium 51 (half-life 28 days); carbon 14 (half-life 5,730 years) and tritium (half-life 12 years), (d) The detectable levels referred to are the extremely dilute concentrations which are just measurable with available instrumentation. These concentrations are roughly those at which radioactive materials appear in nature, (e) and (f) Occasional spot samples have been taken near the effluents of some hospitals
29669 - 32

Order Paper Questions
from time to time to check that the hospitals are in compliance with the disposal conditions specified on their radioisotope licence. Usually this is not necessary, however, since the volume of water being discharged by most hospitals is so immense that sufficient dilution is achieved. Moreover, the total quantity of radioactive materials is so small and the half-life of most commonly used radioisotopes is so short that there will be no significant build-up in the environment.


DISPOSAL OF RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS
Mr. Francis: 1.	How do scientists at the University of British Columbia dispose of radioactive (a) liquids (b) solids (c) gases (d) biological wastes?
2.	How are such radioactive wastes (a) moved (b) stored?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. (a) Liquid radioactive wastes at the University of British Columbia are disposed of by dilution and discharge to the sewage system, (b) Solid radioactive wastes at the University of British Columbia are disposed of by being shipped to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Chalk River, Ontario. Low level wastes containing only trace quantities of radioactive material are incinerated on campus, depending on the type of waste, (c) Gaseous radioactive wastes at the University of British Columbia are discharged to the atomosphere (in such a manner that permissible concentrations in air breathed by personnel are not exceeded), (d) Biological radioactive wastes at the University of British Columbia are incinerated.
2.	(a) Wastes are transported on campus in a University of British Columbia truck used specifically for the carriage of "dangerous" materials. All such wastes are double bagged in polyethylene, checked for contamination and radiation levels, and suitably labelled, (b) Solid wastes are stored, pending shipment to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, in a special concrete central waste storage facility.


POINT LEPREAU NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION, NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. Francis: With respect to the recommendations of the recent Environmental Assessment Panel issued by the Minister of the Environment regarding the Point Lepreau Nuclear Generating Station in New Brunswick (a) will the government be developing a national policy as soon as possible with regard to long term storage and ultimate disposal of highly radioactive wastes (b) will the recommendations of the Assessment Panel with regard to monitoring and controlling the adverse environmental effects on the Point Lepreau region be followed by the government?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: (a) Yes. (b) Yes.


NUCLEAR CONTAMINATION
Mr. Francis: What is the government's estimate of the extent of nuclear contamination in the surrounding environment and the effects on public health

and safety should a fully fueled CANDU reactor be destroyed by sabotage, explosion or earthquake?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: Nuclear power plants are designed to withstand any credible earthquake or explosion that could occur at the site. These and other measures aimed at safety and security make a nuclear power plant intrinsically highly resistant to attempts of sabotage. Therefore, the risk to the public from such events is acceptably low.


CANDU REACTOR ENERGY WASTE
Mr. Francis: Is 70 per cent of the energy produced by a CANDU reactor lost in waste by means of thermal pollution into the nearby environment and, if not, what is the percentage of energy waste?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: Yes.


CANDU REACTOR WASTES-STORAGE SYSTEMS
Mr. Francis: Do some radioactive wastes from CANDU reactors have a half-life of up to 25,000 years and do the currently designed storage vessels have an estimated life of 100 years and, if so, does the government feel confident that a longer term storage system will soon be devised for these dangerous wastes?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: Some of the radioactive materials contained in the spent fuel discharged from CANDU reactors are very long-lived. For example, plutonium-239 requires about 250,000 years (i.e. ten half-lives) to decay to a negligible level. At present, the spent fuel is stored retrievably in interim surface storage facilities pending decisions on re-use and ultimate storage or disposal. Several possibilities for ultimate storage or disposal of radioactive wastes are currently under investigation in Canada, including burial in geologic formations.


NUCLEAR REACTORS AND HEAVY WATER PLANTS
Mr. Francis: 1.	How many nuclear reactors and heavy water plants are projected for Canada up to the year 2000 and (a) where will each be located (b) what is the estimated amount of radioactive wastes that will have accumulated by that time?
2.	What training programmes are being devised to acquire personnel to staff such operations?
3.	(a) Are trained personnel available locally to the plants (b) will talent have to be imported and, if so, from where?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Atomic Energy of Canada Limited estimates that about 115 nuclear reactors will be located in Canada up to the year 2000. Because the vast majority of these will be owned and operated by provincial utilities, the actual number will be determined more by the provincial governments than by the federal government. AECL estimates that eight to 12 heavy water plants, each capable of producing about 800 tons of heavy water annually, will be required in Canada by the year 2000. The actual number installed will be determined partly by experience gained through operation

of current plants and partly by the rate of installation of nuclear reactors, (a) The location of each of these nuclear reactors and heavy water plants will be determined by the utility or private company that owns the plant, subject to the approval of appropriate federal or provincial boards or departments, (b) It is estimated that about 125,000 megagrams of radioactive waste in the form of spent fuel will have been accumulated by the year 2000.
2.	To date, personnel to staff such operations have been trained either in facilities owned and operated by the plant owners or in the facilities of other utilities such as Ontario Hydro or Hydro Quebec.
3.	(a) Experience to date indicates that personnel capable of being trained to operate such plants can be found within the province in which the plant is located, (b) The possibility of having to import talent into Canada to operate such plants seems very remote.


USE OF PLUTONIUM
Mr. Francis: 1.	Is the government working on the development of a second generation of reactor that can use the plutonium by-product of CANDU reactors as fuel?
2.	Has an analysis been made to determine the costs involved in re-using plutonium as reactor fuel in Canada?
3.	Are the environmental public health and safety risks greater when plutonium is re-used as a fuel in a reactor?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Yes. Atomic Energy of Canada Limited has just begun a long-term development program to determine answers to the many technological, economic and social questions that might arise should a future shortage or uranium indicate the desirability of installing reactors that use plutonium in the fuel cycle.
2.	An analysis of the costs involved in reusing plutonium as reactor fuel is one of the objectives of the development program.
3.	The environmental, public health and safety risks associated with the reuse of plutonium as fuel in a reactor are among the major questions to be answered by the development program.


PRODUCTION OF HEAVY WATER FOR CANDU REACTORS
Mr. Francis: Do CANDU reactors use large quantities of heavy water and, if so, is the government convinced that enough heavy water will be produced to provide for the present and planned reactors in Canada in addition to supplying heavy water for export by the year (a) 1980 (b) 2000?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: Yes. Large quantities of heavy water are needed for the initial filling of a CANDU reactor. AECL has advised that enough heavy water will be produced to provide for the present and planned reactors in Canada in addition to supplying heavy water for export by the year (a) 1980 (b) 2000.
Order Paper Questions DECOMMISSIONING OF REACTOR SITES


Mr. Francis: From the time of coming on stream, until a nuclear reactor must be decommissioned (a) what disposal is planned for parts which must be replaced prior to decommissioning of the entire reactor (b) in the case that the "preferred choice" for disposal of decommissioned reactors is to encase the reactor in concrete, what is the projected decomposition rate of such concrete (c) what are the projected costs of safeguarding and monitoring the decommissioned reactor sites?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: (a) Those parts which must be replaced prior to decommissioning of the entire reactor and are not radioactive are disposed of in the normal industrial manner. Those parts which are radioactive are sent to a waste management site for retrievable storage in a concrete vault, (b) In the case that the "preferred choice" for disposal of decommissioned reactors is to encase the reactor in concrete, the expected life of the concrete structure would exceed the time required for the radioactivity in the decommissioned reactor to decay to a safe level, (c) The projected costs of safeguarding and monitoring decommissioned reactor sites are not likely to add more than a few per cent to the cost of electricity.


CANDU-HUMAN ERROR
Mr. Francis: What are the guarantees that CANDU nuclear generating systems will not be subject to human error?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: The safety philosophy for CANDU nuclear power plants is based on "defence-in-depth"; that is, the public would be protected even if several human errors and/or equipment failures were to occur. Just as important, however, is the fact that CANDU nuclear power plants are designed and constructed to high standards and the operators are trained to high standards to minimize the probability of serious human errors and equipment failures.


THORIUM FUEL
Mr. Francis: 1.	What progress has been made to date on the use of thorium which is more abundant than uranium to fuel nuclear reactors in Canada?
2.	Can a standard CANDU reactor be modified to use thorium?
3.	What are the environmental and social risks involved in using thorium?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: 1. Fundamental measurements relevant to the use of thorium in CANDU reactors have been carried out in parallel with uranium studies since Atomic Energy of Canada Limited was first set up, though in much less detail. Over the past two years an extensive and detailed survey has been done to determine the potential value of thorium in CANDU reactors. This shows that thorium will probably be an economic and desirable fuel component before the end of the century. Planning is now under way to carry out the necessary research and development program on a time scale to meet this demand.
29669-32'/2

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
2.	Yes, thorium could be used in a standard CANDU reactor with fairly minor modifications that could be retrofitted to the reactor. Likewise, only minor modifications to the standard CANDU design would be needed to optimize the design to utilize thorium. However, major fuel development and fuel reprocessing programs will be needed.
3.	The social and environmental risks involved in using thorium economically in a reactor are similar in nature to those in using recycled plutonium as fuel. Information on these risks will be gained during the research and development program already mentioned.


PICKERING LICENCE LIMIT
Mr. Francis: Has the operating licence limit for radioactive noble gases been exceeded at the Pickering nuclear facility and, if so, on what dates?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board as follows: The operating licence limit for radioactive noble gases has not been exceeded at the Pickering Generating Station. The annual releases of all radionuclides-the annual period being the important averaging period-has never exceeded a few per cent of the permissible release. For control purposes, the operating licence specifies limits on the quantity of radioactive materials released to the atmosphere in any seven day period.


ACCIDENTS AT PICKERING NUCLEAR FACILITY
Mr. Francis: 1.	How many accidents or events described as "significant events", which had a significant influence on reactor, personnel or public safety from a radiation point of view have occurred at the Pickering nuclear facility?
2.	How many such events have been termed "unsafe"?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. Non. "Significant event" is a term used by Ontario Hydro and others for any event which, in their view, did have or could have had a significant effect on the economic and reliable production of electricity or on the safe operation of the station.
2.	No "significant event" has occurred at the Pickering Generating Station which led to the release of radioactive materials in excess of a few per cent of the licenced limits and, therefore, such events are not considered to have had a significant influence on reactor personnel or public safety from a radiation point of view.


ATOMIC ENERGY OF CANADA LIMITED
Mr. Francis: 1.	In what way have Atomic Energy of Canada Limited facilities been involved in solving the "leaks" problems at Pickering?
2.	What has been the cost to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited?
3.	Who paid the bill?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Atomic Energy of Canada Limited has co-operated fully with Ontario Hydro in solving the pressure tube leak

problem at Pickering. This co-operation has taken two forms: (i) AECL has provided design services and equipment development services for locating the leaking pressure tubes, for removing these from the reactor and for replacing them with new pressure tubes. Most of this work was done at AECL's Power Projects site in Toronto; (ii) AECL has undertaken to discover the reasons why the leaks developed in the pressure tube and to determine how to avoid the problem on future reactions. Most of this work is being done at AECL's research centres at Chalk River and Whiteshell.
2.	By agreement with Ontario Hydro, all work undertaken by AECL for the rehabilitation of the Pickering reactors is paid for by Ontario Hydro. The cost of all work undertaken to discover the causes of the problem and the solutions to it is shared equally between AECL and Ontario Hydro. The cost of this latter work is taken from AECL's annual operating budget.
3.	See answer to part 2 above.


INCIDENT INVOLVING NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY
Mr. Francis: With reference to the answer to Question No. 1,724, which stated the Department of Energy Mines and Resources has "no definite knowledge" of a statement widely reported in the media that an official of Ontario Hydro said in a press conference about the Pickering radioactive leaks that many worse things have happened, does the government or any agency of the government have any knowledge of any incident involving nuclear technology in Canada that was worse than the Pickering leaks?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: We cannot speculate as to what the unnamed Ontario Hydro official meant by "worse things have happened". We know of difficulties that occurred at the Douglas Point Generating Station which were reported widely at the time and which caused long outages of that station during its first few years of operation. The Douglas Point Generating Station was the first commercial scale CANDU nuclear-electric station and is considered a prototype. Some difficulties were expected even though great effort was made to avoid them. The success of the Pickering Generating Station is largely due to the lessons learned at the Douglas Point Generating Station and the earlier, small scale, Nuclear Power Demonstration Generating Station.


ENLARGEMENT OF PICKERING NUCLEAR FACILITY
Mr. Francis: Does the AECL annual report of 1973-74 indicate that "in 1973 (Pickering) produced more electricity than any other nuclear plant in the world" and, if so, has any environmental assessment been ordered before doubling the size of Pickering to which Ontario Hydro has committed itself?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Atomic Energy of Canada Limited Annual Report for
1973-74 states on page 7 that "Pickering produced more electricity in 1973 than any other nuclear power station in the world". In April 1974, Ontario Hydro submitted a document entitled "Proposed Generating Station B at Pickering" to the Ontario Ministry of Energy. Included in
October 14, 1975

this document was an environmental assessment for the proposed addition to Pickering.


PACKAGING OF COBALT 60
Mr. Francis: 
Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: Because of the precautions taken during all phases of the cobalt-60 operation at the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited location of the outskirts of Ottawa, the environmental risk involved is extremely small under normal conditions and the chance of any release of radioactivity under accident conditions is very low. In fact, during the approximately 20 year period in which the cobalt-60 process has been in production, there have been no releases of cobalt-60 to the environment at Atomic Energy of Canada Limited.


CHALK RIVER NUCLEAR FACILITY
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 2,735-Mr. Francis: [DOT]
Was the nuclear facility at Chalk River closed at any time for repairs and, if so (a) on what dates (b) for how long (c) what was the nature and extent of the repairs (d) what amounts of money were spent on the repairs (e) was any leakage of nuclear contaminants involved (f) was any danger to public health or safety involved?
Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: The question can only be answered in general terms as there are a number of nuclear facilities at Chalk River, (a), (b) & (c) All are shut down periodically for repair and maintenance. Since 1974 there have been three major shutdowns of the two large test reactors involving replacement and upgrading of reactor vessels, (d) Repairs are a normal expense included in AECL's annual operating budget and their cost is not segregated from other like expenses, (e) Some minor leakage of nuclear contaminants within a reactor system is normally involved during installation, maintenance or repair operations around a high power test reactor, (f) Not from any operations with any of the six nuclear facilities at Chalk River.


CHALK RIVER WASTE DISPOSAL
Mr. Francis: 1.	What studies have been done on the Ottawa River to investigate levels of radioactivity from the Chalk River waste disposal unit?
2.	What were the results of such studies and are they a matter of public record?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	There is continuous surveillance of the Ottawa River by the Department of National Health & Welfare in collaboration with the Ontario Department of Health and the Ontario Ministry of the Environment. Atomic Energy of Canada Limited also carries out its own environmental monitoring program on the river. The Department of National Health & Welfare program analyses drinking water at five locations along the river, both upstream and down-
Order Paper Questions
stream from the Chalk River Nuclear Laboratories. In addition, fish are collected both upstream and downstream and analysed. Wildlife samples are also taken periodically. The AECL program monitors soil, water, air and vegetation in the vicinity of the waste management areas and all effluents. In addition, it operates a completely independent drinking water monitoring program at Rolphton, Deep River and Pembroke. Other special studies are carried out from time to time on bottom sediments, fish and aquatic plants (water weeds).
2.	Generally speaking, results of studies show that the Chalk River Laboratories contribute minor amounts of radionuclides to the Ottawa River relative to the natural and bomb fallout radionuclides already present. Levels of radioactivity in the drinking water at Pembroke are indistinguishable from background levels. AECL results show that the average concentration of radioactivity in any of the effluents from the laboratory-before reaching the river-is less than 1 per cent of the occupational limit for drinking water. The data are published quarterly in detail in the open scientific literature.


LEAKAGE OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE NEAR COLUMBIA RIVER IN USA
Mr. Francis: To the knowledge of the government, have over 400,000 gallons of radioactive waste been leaked from storage tanks in the State of Washington in the United States near the Columbia River since 1958 and, if so (a) has the government undertaken any studies to see if any of this material was flowing north into British Columbia (b) what was the result of such studies?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: (a) Large quantities of radioactive liquid wastes have, on occasion, leaked from storage tanks at the Hanford site. These incidents have been reported in the press and in technical publications, (b) The Hanford site is in an arid, desert-like area of Washington State. We understand from the literature that all of the radioactivity has been trapped in the soil adjacent to the storage tanks and none of the radioactivity has penetrated down to the water table which, at Hanford, is over a hundred feet below the maximum depth of penetration of the radioactive materials. The nearest significant body of water is the Columbia River which is 8 miles away from the tanks. The Columbia River does not flow back into Canada but flows to the Pacific Ocean at a point over one hundred miles from the Canadian border (measured along the shoreline to the Strait of Juan de Fuca). The ocean currents in the area flow from north to south. A number of communities including Portland, Oregon, are located on the Columbia River downstream of the Hanford site. To the best of our knowledge, U.S. officials have no fear that the leaks at Hanford represent any threat to those communities because none of the radioactive materials have reached the river and none are likely to reach it in the future. Based on all the above factors, it is evident that no useful purpose would be served by any studies to see if any of the radioactive material is flowing north into British Columbia.

Order Paper Questions SALES OF PLUTONIUM TO FBANCE


Mr. Francis: 1.	With reference to the answer to Question No. 1,713 (a) how much plutonium has Canada sold to France (b) on what dates?
2.	How was the plutonium transported (a) across Canada and (b) to France and, what safeguards, if any, were taken to make sure the shipments were not vandalized, sabotaged or stolen?
3.	What safeguards are taken to protect public health and safety from any and all mishaps while plutonium is in transit?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. Irradiated fuel bundles from the Nuclear Power Demonstration and Douglas Point Generating Stations have been sold to France. These fuel bundles which contained approximately 120 kilograms of plutonium were shipped from Canada between August 1969 and May 1972.
2.	The irradiated fuel bundles were removed from the storage ponds at the Chalk River Nuclear Laboratories and Douglas Point and loaded into approved shipping containers. These containers travelled by specially arranged and approved road transport to Toronto and Montreal where they were loaded aboard a ship and transported to Belgium where the reprocessing plant chosen by the French Government is located.
3.	All shipments of irradiated fuel are made under regulations issued by the Atomic Energy Control Board. In the case of this shipment, the details of the proposed shipping arrangements including design and construction of the flask, proposed routing, loading, cleaning and monitoring procedures, were all submitted to the Atomic Energy Control Board for approval. Permission for the transfer was only issued after a thorough review indicated that the risk to public health and safety was acceptable in conformance with prevailing international standards.


MISSING URANIUM OR PLUTONIUM
Mr. Francis: Has any uranium or plutonium been missing or unaccounted for (a) in transit from Canada (b) produced by Canadian-built reactors in other countries?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a) The Atomic Energy Control Board is aware of no incident where uranium or plutonium has been missing or unaccounted for in transit from Canada, (b) The Atomic Energy Control Board is aware of no situation where uranium or plutonium used or produced in Canadian-built reactors which are under bilateral or international safeguards in other countries has been missing or unaccounted for.


SAFEGUARDS FOR NUCLEAR MATERIALS IN TRANSIT
Mr. Francis: What safeguards does the government provide to ensure that radioactive materials in transit will not be hijacked (a) within Canada (b) during export from Canada?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: The security arrangements provided by the federal government to ensure that radioactive materials in transit will not be

hijacked within Canada or during export from Canada are specially arranged for each shipment and tailored to reflect the quantity and form of the material being shipped. The detailed arrangements applied to securable quantities of materials which might be attractive to a potential hijacker are confidential.


SAFEGUARDS FOR PLUTONIUM
Mr. Francis: With reference to the answer to Question No. 1,731 which stated that 2,204.6 pounds of plutonium are produced each year at the Pickering CANDU reactor, what assurances can the government provide that this material will not be stolen and used for criminal activities in (a) Canada (b) countries that are purchasing CANDU reactors?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: (a) The plutonium produced in the Pickering reactors is at present contained in irradiated fuel bundles stored in the spent fuel storage pond at the Pickering Reactor Generating Station. These bundles, which are highly radioactive, are stored under approximately 20 feet of water and cannot be removed from this storage pond without a skilled team of technicians and operators and specially built equipment including special transportation containers which weigh from 25 to 50 tons. The physical characteristics of the fuel bundles and existing security precautions are deemed to provide adequate protection, (b) The precise physical security precautions applied to CANDU reactors abroad by foreign nations are chosen by the nation in question. Canada has assisted the International Atomic Energy Agency in the preparation of international guides to physical security standards as part of its general effort to ensure that adequate physical protection measures are in place in all nuclear facilities around the world not only in CANDU reactors.


PRODUCTION OF ATOMIC BOMB
Mr. Francis: Are twenty-two pounds of plutonium enough to produce an atomic bomb and, if not, how many pounds are required?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: The exact quantity of plutonium required to produce a nuclear bomb or explosive is dependent on the isotopic content, the purity, density and other physical characteristics of the plutonium but most important on the design and fabrication of the nuclear weapon concerned. The effect of each of the potential variables and the minimum quantity required to produce a nuclear bomb are carefully guarded military secrets which are not known in Canada. In order to establish levels of security precautions, the Atomic Energy Control Board has assumed that a nuclear explosive device could be assembled from 15 pounds of plutonium.


EFFECTS OF RADIOACTIVE EXPOSURE
Mr. Francis: Are high doses of radioactive exposure known to cause death or cancer and, if so, is there any information on the long-term effects of low-level radioactive exposure?
October 14, 1975


Mitchell William Sharp: Yes. High doses of radiation can cause cancer and they can cause death as well. Cancers have been observed following doses in the order of 100 rems or more received either in a short period or spread over a long period. The cancer does not appear immediately but after a latent period of several months to many years after the exposure. Deaths due to non-cancerous injuries may result from doses of 200 to 700 rems received in a short period. Exposures of such magnitude may result in death within a few weeks of the exposure, whereas more rapid deaths (within hours) require thousands of rems received in a short period. Taking "low level exposure" to means exposures received within the legal dose limits (5 rems per year to the whole body, for example), there have been no observable effects. It is assumed, for regulatory purposes, that effects are proportional to dose (even at low doses and low doe rates) but this remains an assumption, for no effects have been observed.


LEVELS OF RADIOACTIVE EXPOSURE
Mr. Francis: What is the acceptable level of radioactive exposure (a) for a person's lifetime (b) for a year (c) in one exposure?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a)-(c) The levels of radiation exposure to the whole body permitted by the Atomic Energy Control Regulations are (in addition to natural background radiation and radiation from medical exposures): for atomic'radiation workers-up to 3 rems in a single exposure but no more than 3 rems per quarter of a year and no more than 5 rems for a year; in a working lifetime, say 50 years, the accumulated dose could be 250 rems. For members of the public-the level permitted by the Atomic Energy Control Regulations is no more than .05 rem/year to the whole body. In principle, this could be received in a single exposure, but in practice, any dose received by members of the public is likely to be spread out more or less uniformally during th year. In a lifetime (say 70 years), the accumulated dose could be as high as 35 rems. In practice, it is assured, through the licencing actions of the Atomic Energy Control Board, that the highest exposed members of the public generally receive no more than about 1 per cent of the doses permitted by the Atomic Energy Control Regulations.



Mr. Francis: 1.	What is the acceptable rate of radioactive exposure for a person working in a nuclear facility?
2.	How many people working in nuclear facilities in Canada have as a result of radioactive exposure (a) died (b) become disabled (c) taken sick leave (d) been transferred to another job?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. See answer to question No. 2,745.
2. No one working at Canadian nuclear reactors is known to have died, become disabled, taken sick leave or been permanently transferred to another job as a result of radiation exposure.
Order Paper Questions


PROTECTION OF WORKERS AT NUCLEAR FACILITIES
Mr. Francis: 1.	(a) How many workers at nuclear facilities in Canada are exposed to radioactive materials (b) what is the extent of their exposure?
2.	What safeguards exist to protect the health of workers?
3.	Are workers in nuclear facilities given regular medical check-ups or other tests to ascertain the degree of their exposure?
4.	Are workers protected under an insurance plan against exposure to radioactive materials?
5.	Can a worker in a nuclear facility who is contaminated by radioactive wastes seek damages from his employer?
6.	Has any member of a family of a worker at a nuclear facility in Canada become contaminated with radioactive material as a result of the worker becoming contaminated?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. Approximately 2,500 workers may be regularly exposed to ionizing radiation at nuclear facilities in Canada. Most of these workers receive a radiation dose of less than half the statutory limits.
2.	Measures to protect the radiological health of atomic radiation workers are stipulated in the Atomic Energy Control Regulations. Where necessary, these measures are further specified in the licences issued by the Atomic Energy Control Board. These measures include requirements for minimizing, measuring and recording the exposure of such workers to ionizing radiation.
3.	Yes. Atomic radiation workers are given medical tests of a type and frequency prescribed by medical advisers to the Atomic Energy Control Board. The degree of their radiation exposure, that is, radiation dose, is measured primarily by personal radiation dosimeters and by analysis of urine samples. The amount of radiation dose permitted at nuclear facilities is so low that medical effects are not a useful guide to radiation dose. Indeed, the regulatory limits have been chosen so as to prevent medical effects from occurring.
4.	Yes. Workers are covered by Workmens' Compensation.
5.	Traditionally, workers who are convered by Workmens' Compensation cannot sue their employer; however, when the Nuclear Liability Act is proclaimed, workers who suffer personal injury as a result of radiation exposure can sue the operator (as defined by the act) for damages; and the operator is absolutely liable for any breach of his duty under the act.
6.	There have been cases in the past of workers at nuclear facilities in Canada who have worn contaminated clothing to their home. In such cases, there were no detectable medical consequences to the worker or to members of his family.


AMERICAN GUIDELINES ON RADIATION
Mr. Francis: To the knowledge of the government, has the United States approved guidelines that will expose the public in that country to 100 times less radiation than is the acceptable limit from reactors in Canada and, if so, is Canada considering similar measures?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: Both the

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
United States and the Canadian regulations defining permissible limits of radiation exposure to occupationally-exposed workers and to members of the general public are based on the recommendations of the International Commission on Radiological Protection. The statutory limits in Canada and the U.S.A. are the same. In addition to recommending numerical limits, the International Commission on Radiological Protection cautions that exposures should be kept "as low as is readily achievable, economic and social considerations being taken into account". The United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission has issued guidelines governing the release of radioactive effluents from light-water-cooled nuclear power reactors. The effect of these guidelines is that the resultant radiation dose to members of the public should not exceed about 1% of the statutory dose limits. In advance of the United States action, the Canadian regulatory agency, the Atomic Energy Control Board, established design and operating targets such that the radiation dose to members of the public resulting from radioactive effluents from nuclear power stations and other nuclear facilities and devices should not exceed 1% of the statutory dose limits specified in the Atomic Energy Control Regulations. The operating experience at the Pickering Generating Station indicates that these targets are being achieved.


EMPLOYEES AT PICKERING NUCLEAR FACILITY
Mr. Francis: Did employees at the Pickering nuclear facility receive radioactive exposure in excess of 5 Rems and, if so, how many were involved?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: Very few people, perhaps three or four per year, receive more than 5 rem/year and the doses received by these people have been all less than 10 rem/year. It should be noted that up to 10 rems per year can be permitted by the Atomic Energy Control Board under the Atomic Energy Control Regulations since a dose of 10 rems is not considered to be excessive as long as the dose averaged from age 18 up to the current exposure period does not exceed 5 rems per year.


INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION ON RADIOLOGICAL PROTECTION
Mr. Francis: Has the International Commission on Radiological Protection set an arbitrary figure of about 5 Rems as the maximum acceptable radioactive exposure to a human being over 30 years, and has the United States recently reduced this acceptability figure by a factor of 100 per cent and, if so, is the government reviewing the acceptable radiation exposure figure in Canada to come into line with the United States figure?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: The International Commission on Radiological Protection has set a tentative limit of 5 rems per generation on the genetically significant dose to a population, assuming that a generation is of 30 years duration. This limit is included in the Canadian Atomic Energy Control Regulations. Neither has the U.S. established a limit based on genetically significant dose; however, the U.S has used a number

which is numerically equivalent to 5 rems per 30 years, but this numer (0.17 rem/year) is based on somatic rather than genetic effects. As stated in the answer to question No.
2.749,	the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission recently established numerical guidelines for design objectives governing the release of radioactive effluents from light-water-cooled nuclear reactors. These guidelines are quite separate and distinct from the 5 rem per generation figure referred to above and apply to the statutory dose limits specified by the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission. As also stated in the answer to question No.
2.749,	the action taken by the United States is essentially the same as that taken by the Atomic Energy Control Board of Canada in 1974. Accordingly, it is incorrect to suggest that the acceptable dose limits in the U.S. are lower by a factor of 100 than the applicable Canadian limits.


BIOLOGICAL STUDIES ON RADIATION
Mr. Francis: 1.	Were recent biological studies made by AECL showing that low-levels of radiation alter substantially the estimates of the genetic risks to human populations from exposure to ionizing radiation and, if so, does the government feel that acceptable levels of low-level radiation exposure should be altered?
2.	Have findings of AECL been collaborated by any other outside research source?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: 1. The most recent Atomic Energy of Canada Limited studies concerning the relationship between genetic risks and exposure to ionizing radiation suggest that less of the genetic disease in human populations is of a kind that increases with radiation than was formerly believed to be the case. Notwithstanding these encouraging findings, we agree with the overall consensus of authoritative world opinion that the existing maximum permissible radiation exposure limits for man, as recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection, are adequately conservative and should be retained.
2. Atomic Energy of Canada Limited's findings concerning the relationship between genetic disease and radiation dose have not yet been confirmed elsewhere but are under discussion in Canada and abroad.


HEAVY WATER
Mr. Francis: 1.	Is hydrogen sulphide used in making heavy water for CANDU nuclear generating stations?
2.	Is hydrogen sulphide lethal or otherwise dangerous to public health?
3.	What amounts of hydrogen sulphide are released into the environment near a CANDU reactor?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Hydrogen sulphide is used in the Girdler Sulphide (GS) process used in Canada for making heavy water.
2.	Hydrogen sulphide is a substance comparable in its toxic properties to hydrogen cyanide and sulphur dioxide. Depending on the exposure time, hydrogen sulphide can be
October 14, 1975

lethal to humans if the concentration breathed exceeds about 500 parts per million (ppm) of air.
3.	Hydrogen sulphide is used in the process of making heavy water for CANDU reactors but the product, heavy water, contains no hydrogen sulphide; hence no hydrogen sulphide is released from CANDU reactors. For economic reasons, plants that produce heavy water are sometimes located at CANDU nuclear power plant sites and are supplied with process steam from the CANDU plants. In any case, the amount of hydrogen sulphide released to the environment from heavy water production plants is strictly controlled to prevent damage to the environmental considerations in determining the licenced limits for releases arising from normal operation of heavy water production plants using the Girdler Sulphide process.


COST OF ENERGY DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Francis: 1.	How much money per family in Canada is it estimated will be spent on energy development over the next 20 years?
2.	How much money will be allocated to the top ten energy sources and what total amounts are involved?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources reports as follows: 1. Attached Table 1 shows capital expenditures per family on energy from 1975-1990. Figures for 1991-1995 are at present unavailable. Expenditures per family should not be equated with expenditures by families since some of the investment will come from foreign sources.
2. It would be difficult to specify the top ten energy sources. Nuclear, thermal and hydroelectricity; oil and natural gas; and coal will be the only major sources of energy over the period covered. Geothermal, solar or tidal energy will not be significant sources in this century. Also pipelines are not themselves directly energy sources but are a vital component of energy expenditures.
Attached Table 2 shows a breakdown of energy expenditures over the 1975-1990 period for the major categories listed above.
Table T
Capital Expenditures on Energy Per Family Canada 1975-1990
Year	Total Capital Expenditures	Families	Capital Expenditures Per Family(millions of 1974 dollars)	(thousands)	(1974 dollars)1975	6,585	5,683	1,2001976	6,990	5,815	1,2001977	7,255	5,950	1,2001978	9,890	6,088	1,6001979	11,455	6,227	1,8001980	13,267	6,386	2,1001981	12,495	6,508	1,9001982	13,165	6,649	2,0001983	15,560	6,788	2,2901984	17,960	6,926	2,6001985	16,905	7,061	2,4001986	15,100	7,195	2,1001987	15,345	7,324	2,100
Order Paper Questions
1988	15,105	7,449	2,0001989	16,820	7,570	2,2001990	18,215	7,568	2,400
Table 2
Total Energy Capital Expenditures 1975-1990 by Major Energy Source
(Millions of 1974 Dollars)
1. Electricity1	110,940
2. Petroleum2	60,800
3. Pipelines	24.820
4. Coal and Uranium	9,000
5. Coal Gasification	3.550
6. Heavy Water Plants	3.035
Total	212,145
'includes nuclear, thermal and hydroelectricity.
^Includes petroleum and natural gas exploration, development, refining, marketing and distribution and oil sands plants.


RADIOACTIVE WASTE-PUBLIC INFORMATION
Mr. Francis: With reference to the annual report of the AECL which states "waste management is an important part of the nuclear program" and a "significant effort" will be made to make sure that "ultimate solutions are optimum in terms of public acceptance", will the government be starting a programme of public information to set before the people the alternatives so that public acceptance will reflect informed public opinion?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows; The development of a radioactive waste management program is more than a technical matter. The management process includes matters of regulatory policy and responsibility at various levels of government and also the broader consideration of the responsibilities which present generations can be allowed to bequeath to future generations. These larger considerations are matters of public concern. As a consequence, the techniques for storage of radioactive waste and the intent of responsible agencies must be properly explained in public forums. A program of public information has been initiated by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited consisting of talks to public groups and articles in scientific journals and is expected to be enlarged as details of the management program are developed.


JAMES BAY PROJECT
Mr. Francis: Is the government or the Government of Quebec planning to enrich uranium using electricity from the James Bay Project and, if so (a) will they use U-235 or plutonium (b) where will the fuel come from?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources reports as

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
follows: Neither the federal nor Quebec governments are planning to enrich uranium using electricity from the James Bay Project. A group called CANADIF, of which the James Bay Development Corporation is a member, has conducted a preliminary study of the possibility of constructing a uranium enrichment plant in Quebec. CANADIF recently announced that it was deferring for six months a decision whether or not to proceed with more detailed studies.


REPROCESSING OF SPENT FUEL
Mr. Francis: Is Atomic Energy of Canada Limited planning to reprocess spent fuel from CANDU reactors and, if so, in what way?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: A main responsibility of AECL is to develop advanced reactors and related systems to enable the country to make best use of domestic resources in this field under the circumstances that may obtain in twenty years or so. These circumstances may include a tight uranium supply; in which case it will be advantageous to have available more efficient fuel cycles than the present one. Such fuel cycles may require plutonium recovered from the spent fuel from CANDU reactors. Fuel cycles involving plutonium recycle will halve the requirement for fresh uranium. AECL will therefore engage in the development of fuel reprocessing as a necessary step to the development of advanced reactors.


LICENCES FOR NUCLEAR REACTORS
Mr. Francis: Is the Atomic Energy Control Board considering holding public hearings on licences for nuclear reactors as is the practice in the United States?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: The board is not empowered under the Atomic Energy Control Act to hold formal public hearings as is the practice in the United States. This matter is under the continuing consideration of the board.


FILM &quot;THIS NUCLEAR AGE&quot;
Mr. Francis: 1.	(a) What was the purpose of the film "This Nuclear Age" and a second film about the Douglas Point Generating Station (b) how much did each cost?
2.	Are the films contrary to government policy of energy conservation and, if so, are there plans to withdraw them?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy of Canada Limited reports as follows: 1. (a) The film "This Nuclear Age" was produced to inform

Canadians about the uses being made in Canada of nuclear energy-for the production of electricity, in the diagnosis and treatment of disease and in industrial processes; about research and development work in nuclear laboratories, and about the roles played in the nuclear program by governments, utilities, private companies and universities. The film "Douglas Point Nuclear Power Station" was produced for the purpose of informing Canadians about nuclear fission, the system developed in Canada for the employment of fission for the generation of electricity and the installation and operation of the system in Canada's first full-scale nuclear power station, (b) "This Nuclear Age" and the French-language version, "En Cet Age Nucleaire", cost $89,760. "Douglas Point Power Station" and the French-language version, "La Centrale Nucleaire Douglas Point", cost $62,065.
2. Atomic Energy of Canada Limited does not consider the films to be contrary to government policy of energy conservation.


ATOMIC ENERGY CONTROL BOARD LICENCES
Mr. Francis: Prior to June 4, 1974, was any licence issued by the Atomic Energy Control Board revoked, suspended or amended and, if so, what were the circumstances that led to such a decision?


Mitchell William Sharp: Atomic Energy Control Board reports as follows: Yes. Twenty-eight licences were revoked or suspended because of violations of the Atomic Energy Control Regulations or non-compliance with the terms and conditions of Atomic Energy Control Board licences. A few examples of violations or non-compliance are:-failure to wear monitoring films; failure to use monitoring equipment; failure to report incidents; operating without properly qualified personnel. Licences are often amended at the request of licensees as the scope and extent of their operations change. The amendment of a licence implies no failure to meet required standards.


DEVELOPMENT OF NUCLEAR ENERGY
Mr. Francis: With reference to the answer to Question No. 1,715 stating that the government is committed to the development of nuclear energy in Canada (a) what discussions, if any, did the government undertake with environmentalist or other groups before taking such decision (b) were the people of Canada, in the opinion of the government fully informed of the risks involved in the development of nuclear energy and of the alternative future sources of energy before the decision was taken?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources reports as follows: (a) The Canadian government's support for the development of nuclear energy in Canada extends back in time for three decades. As early as 1945 commitments were made to convert the war-time legacy of nuclear energy to peaceful purposes. The major reasons were to provide access to the enormous store of energy in Canadian uranium and to enable Canada to compete in an increasingly technological world. In 1946, the government of the day, aware of the possible risks inherent in nuclear technology, promulgated the Atomic Energy Control Act and formed
October 14, 1975

the Atomic Energy Control Board to regulate the industry in terms of public health and reactor safety. At that time no environmental protection organizations were taking any interest in this area. Nonetheless, government and industry were making every effort to carefully protect the environment and to keep the public fully informed. Continuous programs of public education on nuclear power have been carried out, for example, by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Ontario Hydro since the start-up of the Nuclear Power Demonstration reactor at Rolphton in 1962. Since the recent development of organized public interest in this field and the formation of new groups, however, many discussions both public and private have taken place, and many questions asked by such groups have been answered to their apparent satisfaction by the Atomic Energy Control Board, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick electric utilities, (b) In view of the foregoing, it is clear that consultation with the people of Canada has been taking place on a continuous basis since the start of this development. Recently, for example, an environmental assessment was completed of the proposed New Brunswick Point Lepreau Nuclear Station by a panel of experts led by the Department of the Environment. A public meeting was held to review the report and many public briefs were presented. Conditional environmental approval for the reactor was given by the Department of the Environment on the basis of all this information. Had Canada not gone ahead as she did, U.S. light water reactors would now be the major alternative source of energy. An industry employing tens of thousands would not exist, Canada would not have the very successful Pickering Generating Station and would not be in the forefront of technological development in this field.


PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE
Mr. Cossitt: Was there any damage of any kind to the premises at the Prime Minister's official residence at 24 Sussex Drive as a result of blasting operations in connection with the construction of a swimming pool and, if so (a) what is a full description of such damage (b) what is an estimate of the amount of such damage and the cost that would be involved in repairs (c) on what specific dates was blasting carried out and by whom?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: No. (a)
n/a; (b) n/a; (c) n/a.


CAFETERIAS IN GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS
Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): 1.	With respect to the cafeterias of the (a) Lester B. Pearson Building (Department of External Affairs) (b) Place de Ville-Tower "A" (Public Service Commission) (c) R. H. Coats Building (Tunney's Pasture) who are the concessionnaires and how were the concessions awarded in each case?
2.	Were grants made to any of the concessionnaires and, if so (a) how were they determined (b) what was the amount of the grant?
3.	Can an employee of one department or agency eat in any of the other cafeterias?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. (a) Lester B. Pearson Building (Department of External Affairs): The concessionnaires Crawley and McCracken
Order Paper Questions
Company Limited who was selected by public tender, (b) Place de Ville Tower "A" (Public Service Commission): The federal government is not responsible for any of the commercial eating facilities in Place de Ville Tower "A",
(c)	R. H. Coats Building (Tunney's Pasture): There is no cafeteria located in this building. The occupants of the building use the cafeteria located in the adjoining Statistics Canada Building. The concessionnaire is Lome Murphy Foods Limited who was selected by public tender.
2.	No grants were made to the concessionnaire operating in the Lester B. Pearson Building and the R.H. Coats Building.
3.	Yes.


DON JOY
Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	On what date was Mr. Don Joy appointed as "exempted staff" attached to one or other of the Ministers of government?
2.	To what Minister is he attached?
3.	What are his duties?
4.	How many other "exempted staff" are on that Minister's staff?
5.	In what salary ranges do the salaries of these appointees fall?
6.	For what duration is the appointment of Mr. Joy?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	October 15, 1974.
2.	The Leader of the Government in the Senate.
3.	Special Assistant-duties as assigned by the Minister.
4.	Eight.
5.	1-up to $25,000; 3-up to $21,000; 2-$11,871 to $12,992; 1-$11,340 to $12,409; 1-$9,239 to $10,102.
6.	Indeterminate.


SOLAR GRAIN DRYING INSTALLATIONS
Mr. Hnatyshyn: To the knowledge of the government were more than 40 solar grain drying installations operated in midwestern states of the United States in the fall of 1974 and were thousands of bushels of grain dried using solar energy under experimental conditions and, if so, is the government having experimental work of that nature done in Canada?


Hon. E. F. Whelan (Minister of Agriculture):: Officials of the Department are aware that solar drying of grain has been done in the United States, but cannot confirm the number of installations and the quantity of grain dried. The Department is not currently conducting experimental work on solar drying of grain.
COST OF "INDUSTRY, TRADE AND COMMERCE ANNUAL REVIEW, 1973/74"


Mr. Huntington: What was the total cost to the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce to compose and publish the Industry, Trade and Commerce
Annual Review 1973/74?


Mitchell William Sharp: The total cost of the Industry, Trade and Commerce
Annual Review 1973/74 is $32,289.

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


CONTRACT FOR CARPET AT MONTREAL MIRABEL AIRPORT
Mr. Saltsman: 1.	Has the contract for carpet for the Montreal Mirabel Airport been let and, if so (a) to whom (b) what manufacturer is producing it?
2.	(a) How many square yards are involved (b) what is the estimated cost per square yard (c) what type of carpet has been specified (nylon, wool, acrylic, etc.) (d) what performance guarantee has been given?
3.	Was a wool carpet specified at an installed price approximately three times higher than nylon carpet and, if so (a) for what reason (b) how many Canadian carpet manufacturers were excluded by such choice?
4.	How many different manufacturers were represented in bids against the tender for carpet specified by the government?
5.	Was this contract specified as giving any preference whatsoever to Quebec made products although it is a federal project and, if so, what are the details?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	Two contracts for carpet for the New Montreal International Airport in Mirabel have been awarded, (a) The contract for pure virgin wool yarn with polypropylene chain carpet backing has been awarded to T. Eaton Co. The contract for pure virgin acrylic on polypropylene primary backing and density foam secondary backing carpet has been awarded to Lavoie & Sauve Inc. (b) The pure virgin wool carpet is manufactured by Blackwood Morton Kil-marlock Co. (B.M.K.) of St. Therese de Blainville, Quebec. The pure virgin acrylic carpet is manufactured by St. George International of Ville St-Georges de Beauce, Quebec.
2.	(a) Involved are 14, 245 square yards of pure virgin wool carpet and 2,803 square yards of pure virgin acrylic carpet, (b) Installed and including underlay, the cost per square yard is $30.66 for the pure virgin wool carpet and $7.73 for the pure virgin acrylic carpet, (c) Pure virgin wool yarn with polypropylene chain carpet and pure virgin acrylic on polypropylene primary backing and density foam secondary backing carpet had been specified, (d) The performance guarantee is the following: 12 month guaranty as per General Conditions of Canadian Government Contracts. This guaranty period will start at the date of final acceptance of work and it is signed by the manufacturers, the sub-contractors and the contractors; All repairs or replacements, as well as any damage to other trade's work caused by a defect of the work of this section during the said guarantee period, shall be entirely at the expense of the signatories; The guarantee shall be handed to the Engineer before final acceptance of work. The day the final certificate of completion is issued shall be the day the Engineer, the Consultant and the Construction Manager issue the said Final Certificate of completion and this guarantee will take effect the same day; Furthermore, the Contractor shall compensate the Engineer for all damages resulting from defective work within the scope of this guarantee; Neither field inspection, nor approval of sample materials or part of work, nor final acceptance of work or payment of work by the Engineer shall free the Contractor from responsibility concerning defective workmanship or materials; The guarantee called for in this section shall not alter civil liability as established by articles No. 1688 and No. 2259 of the Province of Quebec Civil Code, and shall in no way restrict guarantees exceeding the one normally furnished by some manufacturers.

3.	The pure virgin wool carpet was neither specified nor tendered at an installed price of approximately three times higher than nylon carpet, (a) A pure virgin wool carpet was specified in the highly travelled areas by the public for reasons of durability. Pure virgin acrylic carpet was specified in areas where carpet would usually be needed for aesthetical as well as acoustical reasons and where the public would not walk, (b) It is not possible to estimate how many Canadian carpet manufacturers were excluded.
4.	Since bidders were not requested to provide the name of the manufacturers in their tender documents, it was impossible to know the name of the supplier of the unsuccessful bidders.
5.	No.


VOTES RECORDED BY UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Mr. Kaplan: 1.	How many votes were recorded by the UN General Assembly in each of its plenary and six committee sessions in the years 1972, 1973 and 1974?
2.	In how many and what percentage of votes in each session did Canada (a) vote yes (b) vote no (c) abstain (i) with explanation (ii) without explanation (d) refrain?


Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: 1. and 2. (a), (b) and (c): Records of votes in United Nations Committees are not readily available. The record for the General Assembly is set out below: (i) The U N. General Assembly considered and adopted 170 resolutions and sub-resolutions in its 27th Session in 1972; 168 resolutions and sub-resoluitons in its 28th Session in 1973; 3 resolutions at the Sixth Special Session of UNGA in 1974; and 179 resolutions and sub-resolutions in its 29th Session in 1974. (ii) At the 27th Session of UNGA in 1972, 50 (29.4 per cent) resolutions were adopted unanimously, without opposition or without a vote; Canada specifically voted in the affirmative on 83 (48.8 per cent) resolutions; Canada voted in the negative on 5 (2.9 per cent) resolutions; Canada abstained on 32 (18.8 per cent) resolutions; and Canada did not refrain from voting on any resolutions.
(iii)	At the 28th Session of UNGA in 1973, 66 (39.3 per cent) resolutions were adopted unanimously, without opposition or without a vote; Canada specifically voted in the affirmative on 70 (41.7 per cent) resolutions; Canada voted in the negative on no (0 per cent) resolutions; Canada abstained on 32 (19.0 per cent) resolutions; and Canada did not refrain from voting on any resolutions.
(iv)	At the Sixth Special Session of UNGA held in May of 1974, three resolutions were adopted by consensus. (V) At the 29th Session of UNGA in 1974, 90 (50.3 per cent) resolutions were adopted unanimously, without opposition or without a vote; Canada specifically voted in the affirmative on 62 (34.6 per cent) resolutions; Canada voted in the negative on 4 (2.2 per cent) resolutions; Canada abstained on 23 (12.8 per cent) resolutions; and Canada did not refrain from voting on any resolutions.
2. (c) i) and ii): A precise response cannot be provided to the question regarding the occasions Canada explained an abstention and those when Canada abstained without explanation. No detailed records are kept in this regard and only a portion of the explanations of vote are published in U.N. documents and in Canadian delegation
October 14, 1975

reports. Furthermore, on some occasions time and U.N. procedures do not provide the opportunity to explain a vote; on other occasions, Canada's vote in abstention is recorded in what is generally considered the good company of other states and on those occasions an explanation by each Member State taking that position would be needlessly time-consuming and repetitive; finally, Canada explains its vote with sufficient frequency whether it be positive, negative, or an abstention, to ensure that when it does not, the reason for our position is usually obvious and self-explanatory.


NUMBER OF PERSONS PERMITTED TO AWAIT TRIAL ON BAIL ON CHARGES
[Stage Direction]
Questions No. 2,802-Mr. Beatty:
1.	For each year since 1970 and by province or territory, how many persons were permitted to await trial on bail on charges of (a) murder (b) rape?
2.	How many such persons (a) were ultimately convicted of the crime with which they had been charged (b) are currently awaiting trial?
3.	How many such persons were charged with committing a second offence while on bail and of these, how many (a) were subsequently convicted of the second offence (b) are still awaiting trial for the second offence?
4.	How many persons charged with (a) murder (b) rape are currently out on bail awaiting trial and what is the distribution by province or territory?
5.	By year and province or territory, how many persons described in Part 1 (a) did not subsequently report for trial at the appointed time and place and what was the offence with which they were charged (b) are currently still at large?
Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	No such statistics are available. The possibility of obtaining such statistics on a routine basis is being explored, but it appears that the cost would be considerable. For offences such as murder or rape it is possible that some information could be supplied for individual provinces by their Attorneys General.
2.	To 5. Not applicable.


COST OF REORGANIZATIONAL STUDY OF AIR CANADA
Mr. Huntington: 1.	What was the original cost quoted by McKinsey and Company Inc., a management consultant firm from Manhatten, New York, to carry out its 1970 reorganizational study of Air Canada?
2.	What was the final cost to Air Canada on completion of the study?
3.	What recommendations were made by the consultants to Air Canada?
4.	Were the recommendations implemented by Air Canada?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: 1, 2, 3,
4.	The information requested is considered privileged and is not made public on the grounds that it relates to the internal operation of the airline.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT HOUSEHOLDER DIRECTORIES
Mr. Herbert: 1. What use is made by the Post Office Department of the householder directories which it compiles and publishes?
Order Paper Questions
2.	(a) How many are published (b) at what cost?
3.	How many have been sold in a one year period?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: 1. The
Canada Post Office uses householder directories: (a) To provide directory service for mail that is undeliverable due to incomplete, incorrect or illegible addressing, (b) To provide (free of charge) senators and members of parliament with an up-to-date list of constituents in federal ridings, (c) To provide (free of charge) charitable organizations, government departments and the National Library, etc. with an up-to-date list of householders for all areas not covered by commercial directories to assist them in research and in addressing of their mail, (d) To sell to customers and thereby assist in correct addressing of mail, enabling the Post Office to provide faster and more efficient service. In the case of large volume mailers, the availability of these lists generates third class mailings which are an additional source of revenue for the department.
2.	(a) The Post Office publishes 145 different householder directories. These cover a total of 198 federal electoral districts (the balance of the electoral districts are covered by private directories). The total number of copies published is 8,884. (b) The printing cost for the fiscal year
1974-75 is $34,963.76.
3.	The number sold in the fiscal year 1974-75 is 2,292.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-EXPENDITURES SINCE 1945
Mr. Roberts: 1.	For each year since 1945, what was the total net expenditure for National Defence?
2.	What percentage do the figures represent of the total budgetary expenditure?
3.	For the same years, what was the total expenditure on capital
goods?
4.	What is the total manpower of the Armed Forces since 1945?


James Armstrong Richardson: 1, 2, 3 and 4. The data requested is all contained in the following:
DEPARTMENT OE NATIONAL DEFENCE EXPEND1TURE/MANPOWER DATA 1946-47 TO 1973-74
DND	DND Expenditure as a percentage	DND	Armed ForcesNet	of Federal	Capital	ManpowerExpenditure	Expenditure	Expenditure	(Note 2)1946-47	($000,000) 388	14.7	($000,000) Note 1	36,5351947-48	196	8.9	1	34,7621948-49	269	12.4	1	41,6761949-50	385	15.7	1	47,1851950-51	782	27.0	232	68,4271951-52	1,415	37.9	662	95,3941952-53	1,882	43.4	986	104,4271953-54	1,806	41.5	935	112,5291954-55	1,666	39.0	776	118,077
October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
1955-56	1,750	39.5	755	116,6781956-57	1,759	36.3	732	117,0921957-58	1,668	32.8	540	119,0381958-59	1,425	26.6	508	120,4121959-60	1,515	26.6	381	119,5971960-61	1,518	25.5	364	120,0551961-62	1,626	24.9	406	126,4741962-63	1,575	24.0	325	123,6941963-64	1,683	24.5	300	120,7811964-65	1,536	21.3	262	114,1641965-66	1,549	20.0	257	107,4671966-67	1,639	18.6	257	105,7211967-68	1,754	17.8	301	101,6761968-69	1,761	16.4	289	98,3401969-70	1,789	15.0	263	93,3531970-71	1,818	13.8	225	89,5631971-72	1,895	12.8	224	84,9331972-73	1,982	12.3	176	82,4021973-74	2,232	11.1	238	81,8221974-75	2,508	-	268	78,984
Note 1: Public Accounts and other budget presentations during the period 1945-50 which are now available for analysis do not identify capital expenditure in sufficient detail to provide data comparable to that displayed from 1950-51 onward.
Note 2: The figures in this column do not include Reserve Forces.
Note 3: DND net expenditures and capital expenditures for 1974/75 are unaudited figures. Total federal expenditures are not yet available, hence the percentage could not be calculated.


DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE-PERSONNEL
Mr. Lambert (Edmonton West): 1.	In order to supplement or to replace the general translation services provided by the Department of the Secretary of State, which departments or ministries have organized or are contemplating organizing translation sections within their own establishment?
2.	Are the personnel on loan from the Secretary of State or are they taken on strength by such department or ministry?
3.	By department or ministry, what is the respective number of persons or number of man-years involved?
4.	What is the public service classification and salary range of all persons heading up any such section or group?
5.	What is the estimated cost of operating such a section or group for each department?
6.	As the result of any such steps or if any others are in contemplation what will be the change in numbers of the translation service of the Department of the Secretary of State?
7.	What are the reasons advanced for the change in organization and function as described above?
8.	What is the estimated cost of the separate and additional sets of manuals, dictionaries, etc., and office equipment for such sections or groups?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by several departments as follows: 1. None. The Translation Bureau has a clear mandate in this area, established by the Translation Bureau Act (Section 3(1)). However, approximately 600 of the Bureau's translators are physically located in various departments.
2. to 8. Not applicable.


SHADOW RENTAL BILLINGS
Mr. Herbert: What are the amounts by department or reporting ministry of the shadow billings sent out by the Department of Public Works to indicate rentals that would otherwise be payable?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Department of Public Works Shadow Rental Billings Fiscal Year 1974-75
Department or Reporting Ministry/Agency	Amount of Shadow Billings
Agriculture	9,432,866.67
Atomic Energy Control Board	4,708.34
Auditor General	215,299.45
National Emergency Planning Establishment	826,477.68
Canadian International Development Agency	1,216,446.54
Canadian Intergovernmental Conference	53,224.50
Canadian Penitentiary Service	245,941.95
Canadian Radio and Television Commission	648,067.38
Canadian Transport Commission	1,056,100.93
Chief Electoral Officer	121,942.37
Commissioner, Official Languages	137,979.55
Communications	2,168,817.75
Consumer and Corporate Affairs	4,471,828.18
Defence Research Board	188,656.63
Food Prices Review Board	89,987.47
Economic Council of Canada	142,216.69
Energy, Mines and Resources	9,321,227.35
Energy Supplies Allocation Board	26,486.25
Environment	12,769,336.46
External Affairs	4,170,943.43
Federal Court of Canada	720,350.09
Finance	1,293,789.39
Government Annuities Branch	64,688.31
House of Commons	2,116,441.16
Immigration Appeal Board	458,925.09
Indian and Northern Affairs	7,138,209.52
Industry, Trade and Commerce	3,709,161.64
Information Canada	1,082,773.96
Insurance	271,123.55
International Joint Commission	26,374.09
Justice	2,574.255.09
Labour	1,051,548.89
Canada Labour Relations Board	211,245.03
Library of Parliament	125,257.12
Manpower and Immigration	18,942,086.38
Members of Parliament-Local Offices	1,090.80
Ministry of Science & Technology	352,137.83
National Defence	17,049,888.32
National Energy Board	437,410.59
National Film Board	3,791,417.97
National Health and Welfare	11,206,258.41
National Library	496,310.55
National Museums	3,343,912.43
National Parole Board	814,904.01
October 14, 1975

National Research Council	1,895.971.24
Revenue Canada-Customs and Excise	11,515,294.86
Revenue Canada-Taxation	16,620,837.39
Bureau of Pensions Advocates	142,496.93
Post Office	71,488,171.23
Privy Council	926,316.54
Public Archives	2,436,021.75
Public Service Commission	4,556,691.14
Public Service Staff Relations Board	189,401.84
Regional Economic Expansion	2,747,138.29
Representation Commissioner	7,788.54
Royal Canadian Mounted Police	5,972,723.79
Science Council of Canada	110,635.87
Secretary of State	3,634,219.52
Secretary to the Governor General	708,372.25
Senate	323,340.60
Solicitor General Secretariat	440,016.82
Statistics Canada	7,884,326.43
Supply and Services (Service and Administration)	6,966,675.46
Tariff Board	77,240.73
Tax Review Board	148,929.38
Transport	9,522,422.98
Treasury Board	1,199,896.11
Urban Affairs	551,563.50
Veterans Affairs	3,227,470.65
Total	277,882,079.63



Mr. Herbert: What are the amounts by department or reporting ministry of the shadow billings sent out by the Department of Supply and Services to indicate the costs of services that would otherwise be payable?


Mitchell William Sharp: The value of services provided without charge by the Department of Supply and Services and communicated to departments and agencies is as follows:
Department or Agency	Amount ($000's)
Agriculture	$1,280
Atomic Energy	10
Auditor General	13
Canadian Film Div. Corp.	1
Canadian International Development Agency	118
Canadian Livestock Feed Board	32
Canadian Radio - Television Commission	11
Canadian Transport Commission	33
Order Paper Questions
Chief Electoral Officer	4
Commissioner of Official Languages	2
Communications	134
Consumer and Corporate Affairs	120
Defence Research Board	54
Economic Council	8
Energy, Mines and Resources	272
Environment	1,194
Governor General	5
House of Commons	227
Indian Affairs and Northern Development	2,085
Industry, Trade and Commerce	134
Information Canada	43
Insurance	166
Justice	22
Labour	38
Library	10
Manpower and Immigration	3,171
Medical Research Council	7
National Defence	5,391
National Energy Board	7
National Film Board	135
National Harbours Board	69
National Health and Welfare	10,622
National Museums	91
National Research Council	348
National Revenue - Customs and Excise	1,078
National Revenue - Taxation	1,752
Post Office	3,084
Privy Council	20
Public Archives	29
National Library	4
Public Service Commission	161
Public Service Staff Relations Board	4
Public Works	1,181
Regional and Economic Expansion	150
Royal Canadian Mint	30
Royal Canadian Mounted Police	668
Science Council of Canada	3
Secretary of State	142
Senate	7
Solicitor General	785
Statistics Canada	330
Transport	2,108
Veterans Affairs	2,435
External Affairs	261
Representation Commission	2
Board of Grain Commissioners	52
Passport Office	3
Science and Technology	6
Urban Affairs	2
Canadian Pilotage Authority	16
These figures were furnished to departments mentioned above to be included in the amount for services provided by other departments shown in their Main Estimates for fiscal 1975/76.

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


AIR CANADA-TRANSFER OF PAINTING TO MR. YVES MENARD
Mr. MacKay: 1.	Was ownership of a painting formerly owned by Air Canada transferred to Mr. Yves Menard, former Vice-President of Marketing for Air Canada, to mark the occasion of his departure from the company and, if so, on what date did this occur and what were the circumstances?
2.	What was the value of the painting?
3.	Was the painting ever officially valued by a qualified appraiser of art work?
4.	What was the original cost to Air Canada of the painting?
5.	What was the total value of art work and paintings purchased by Air Canada for the private enjoyment or decoration of offices of its executives since 1968?
6.	Under whose guidance and direction are objets d'art acquired for Air Canada and for what stated purpose is this justified as company policy?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: 1. On the occasion of his departure from Air Canada, a group of friends and business associates held a reception for Mr. Yves Menard on April 14, 1975. At that reception, Mr. Menard was presented with a painting which had hung in his office and which had become a favorite of his. This painting had been purchased from Air Canada with funds donated by the group of friends. The full purchase price was paid, with no discount or subsidy.
2. $1,000.
3.	No.
4.	$1,000.
5.	Approximately $56,000.
6.	Over the past several years, Air Canada has occasionally purchased paintings for use as decoration in Maple Leaf Lounges, in other public areas and in the offices of senior management. This is considered to be in line with similar practices in private industry.


DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES-CONTRACT NO. SS08-KF832-4-2187
Mr. Beatty: 1.	With respect to contract number SS08 KF832-4-2187 (0SS5-2002) announced in the June 1975 edition of the Research and Development Bulletin issued by the Department of Supply and Services, what is a full description of the nature of the work to be done?
2.	On what date is the final work to be submitted and how many man-hours are expected to be required in its preparation?
3.	What are the component parts of the cost figure of $40,700?
4.	On what date and how was the project advertised?
5.	Who were the other persons or organizations bidding on the contract and what were their bids?
6.	Who was the official in the Department of the Environment responsible for assessing the bids for the contract and what was his title?
7.	Who is the official in the Department of the Environment to whom Mr. Childerhose's final work will be submitted and what is his job title?
8.	(a) During what periods has Mr. Childerhose been an employee of the government (b) what was his title (c) what were his responsibilities?
9.	(a) What other work has Mr. Childerhose done for the government (b) for whom was it done (c) what was its cost?
[Mr. Sharp.J


Mitchell William Sharp: The contractor will expedite the preparation of and maintain close liaison with the planning, designing, writing, illustrating, collating, printing, proofreading, and distributing of approximately 32 scientific/technical reports and their related six overview reports within targeted deadlines. These reports cover research being conducted by the Beaufort Sea Project to determine the environmental impact of offshore drilling in the Beaufort Sea.
2.	April 30, 1976; 320 man-days including sub-contractors.
3.	Principal Consultant, 100 days at $180, $18,000; Publications Designer, 20 days at $135, $2,700; Graphic Artists, 100 days at $90, $9,000; Artist, 75 days at $90, $6,750; Photo Editor, 25 days at $90, $2,250; Travel and Living, $2,000 Total $40,700.
4.	Not advertised. Copies of invitation to tender mailed to all likely persons or firms including those supplied by the Department of Supply and Services.
5.	Mr. C. V. Stanley Jones $38,600; Colonist Printers $40,000; Fleming-Review Printing Ltd. $41,840; We Hosl-dath Consultants Ltd. $50,700.
6.	Mr. Allen R. Milne, Project Manager, Beaufort Sea Project.
7.	Mr. Allen R. Milne, Project Manager, Beaufort Sea Project.
8.	(a) November 1, 1970 to May 1, 1974. (b) Information Officer, (c) To supply information related to Departmental programs.
9.	(a) Co-ordination and preparation of material for publication on the biology of the Pacific Salmon and steel head trout, (b) Pacific Biological Station, Nanaimo, B.C.
(c)	$21,500.


NUMBER OF PERSONNEL HIRED BY PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION TO IMPLEMENT BILL C-7, C-57 AND C-58
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	As of May 15, 1975, how many persons have been hired (a) by the Public Service Commission (b) under contract by the Department of Finance for duties relating primarily to the implementation and administration of (i) Bill C-7, An Act to enable Banks to be incorporated by letters patent and to enable capital stock of banks to be held and voted by provincial governments (ii) Bill C-57, An Act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, 1972 (iii) Bill C-58, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act?
2.	In each case, what was the date of the original employment or commencement of contract?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	(a) and (b) (i) Nil. (ii) Nil. (iii) Nil.
2.	Not applicable.


NUMBER OF PERSONNEL HIRED BY PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION TO IMPLEMENT BILL C-16
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	As of May 15, 1975, how many persons have been hired (a) by the Public Service Commission (b) under contract by the Department of National Health and Welfare for duties relating primarily to the implementation and administration of Bill C-16, An Act to amend certain statutes to provide equality of status thereunder for male and female persons?
October 14, 1975

2.	In each case, what was the date of the original employment or commencement of contract?


Marc Lalonde: 1. (a) This department has not hired anyone through the Public Service Commission for duties relating to the implementation and administration of Bill C-16 (b) None. Bill C-16 has no bearing on the department's legislation and/or programs.
2. Not applicable.


NUMBER OF PERSONNEL HIRED BY PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION TO IMPLEMENT BILLS C-23 AND C-52
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	As of May 15, 1975, how many persons have been hired (a) by the Public Service Commission (b) under contract by the Treasury Board for duties relating primarily to the implementation and administration of (i) Bill C-23, An Act to provide for the payment of superannuation benefits to Lieutenant Governors (ii) Bill C-52, An Act to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, the Diplomatic Service (Special) Superannuation Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, the Governor General's Retiring Annuity Act, the Judges Act, the Tax Review Board Act and the Supplementary Retirement Benefits Act?
2.	In each case, what was the date of the original employment or commencement of contract?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: In so far as the Treasury Board Secretariat is concerned: 1. (a) and (b) (i) Nil. (ii) Nil.
2. N/A.


NUMBER OF PERSONNEL HIRED BY PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION TO IMPLEMENT BILL C-35
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	As of May 15, 1975, how many persons have been hired (a) by the Public Service Commission (b) under contract by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce for duties relating primarily to the implementation and administration of Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Statistics Act?
2.	In each case, what was the date of the original employment or commencement of contract?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1.	In so far as Statistics Canada is concerned, no persons had been hired by the Public Service Commission or under contract as of May 15, 1975, for duties relating primarily to the implementation and administration of Bill C-35, an act to amend the Statistics Act.
2.	Not applicable.


ACQUISITION OF LANDS FOR NATIONAL WILDLIFE AREAS
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	With what provinces is the government negotiating regarding the acquisition of lands for national wildlife areas and, in each case, what lands are under discussion?
2.	By province and territory, what is the (a) total amount of acreage now dedicated to national wildlife areas (b) name of each such area?
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. Although the department has met with the provincial wildlife departments and has discussed where national wildlife areas could be established, the department is not presently negotiating for any specific area. When ready to acquire a specific area, provincial concurrence would be obtained before commencing negotiations. An agreement was signed with the province of Saskatchewan covering the Last Mountain Lake Wildlife Management Area providing for the conservation, management and development of wildlife resources, the area is comprised of approximately 15,000 acres of federal Crown lands and 8,000 acres of provincial Crown lands. There also exists an agreement with the province of Manitoba to undertake joint programs to rehabilitate, develop, and manage the Delta Marsh.
2. Please see the following:
National Wildlife Areas
			Area by
		Area	Province
Province	Name	(acres)	(acres)Nova Scotia	Chignecto (a) John Lusby Marsh	1,047	(b) Amherst Point	700	Sand Pond	1,285	Wallace Bay	1,104	4,136New Brunswick	Portage Island	1,114	Shepody	1,155	Tintamarre (a) Jolicure Lakes	2,816	(b) Fort Beausejour	177	5,262Quebec	Baie de File Verte	305	Cap Tourmente	5,256	Lac St. Francois	2,830	lies de Contrecceur	206	lies de La Paix	299	8,896Ontario	Big Creek Marsh	1,450	Dover Marsh	620	Eleanor Island	2	Hahn Marsh	402	Mohawk Island	5	Mississippi Lake	580	Weller Bay	100	3,159Manitoba	Pope Reservoir	77	77Saskatchewan	Last Mountain Lake	14,984	Stalwart	1,562	Tway Lake	240	Bradwell	320	St. Denis	892	17,998Alberta	Blue Quills Marsh	240	240British Columbia	Alaksen	669	Donleal Farms	367	Little Qualicum	80	Rosewall Creek	31	Vaseux-Bighom	904	Vaseux-West	719	Wilmer Marsh	725	3,495
43,263

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions BANNING OF AEROSOL CANS


Mr. Schellenberger: In regard to the current controversy surrounding the potentially dangerous effect of fluorocarbons on the earth's ozone layer, is the Minister considering banning the use of aerosol cans?


Mitchell William Sharp: Aerosol cans as well as other uses of fluorocarbons have been under review for some time. The assessment of Canadian scientists, based on a theoretical model, is that the fluorocarbons may pose a threat to the ozone layer. However, precise measurements of key chemical constituents in the stratosphere and other research are required in order to draw firm conclusions regarding the nature and seriousness of the threat. A decision on whether to restrict use of fluorocarbons in aerosol cans should be possible in one to two years depending on progress in making the necessary scientific measurements.


REMOVAL OF WASTEPAPER FROM PARLIAMENT HILL
Mr. Schellenberger: 1.	How many tons of paper waste are removed each year from Parliament Hill?
2.	Who hauls away such waste?
3.	What is the cost of removal?
4.	Is such waste (a) recycled (b) incinerated (c) used as land fill?
5.	In the case of Part 4 (b) and (c), would the Minister consider having it recycled as a demonstration of confidence in the long-term prospects of waste paper recovery and to provide an incentive to the recycling industry which would encourage others to become actively involved in the recycling process?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. Based on household units the estimated yearly weight in tons is: (1) East Block, 80.18 tons; (2) Centre Block, 1,018.52 tons; (3) West Block, 393.12 tons; Total 1,491.82 tons.
2.	Tri-Cil Waste Management Limited.
3.	The cost of removal of waste paper for Parliament Hill was seven thousand forty-eight dollars ($7,048.00).
4.	(c) Used as land fill.
5.	A study was carried out jointly in late 1972 by Environment Canada, CADC and DPW to try and find a satisfactory solution to the problem of paper disposal from government buildings in the Ottawa-Hull area. This study revealed that the cost of separating and collection of office waste far exceeded any potential revenue. It was therefore agreed that, as an interim measure pending further study by Environment Canada, disposal of office waste paper from Parliament Hill would be included in the garbage contract.
[Mr. Sharp.)


CRITERIA USED TO DETERMINE BUILDING OF FEDERAL BUILDINGS
Mr. Schellenberger: 1.	What criteria are used to determine whether a federal building will be constructed in a town or city?
2.	Has consideration been given to the construction of a federal building in Spruce Grove or Leduc, Alberta?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. In
general, the following criteria are used to determine whether a government of Canada building will be constructed in a town or city; (i) There must be a specific request by one or more federal departments or agencies for space in a particular locality or an economic advantage may have been identified in the regrouping of federal departments and agencies from existing accommodation, either Crown-owned or leased. Given a long-term growth projection for a community the eventual construction of Crown-owned facilities would generally be the optimum solution, although rented accommodation is often used in response to requirements for immediate additional accommodation. (ii) Within the context of economic viability a choice is made among various alternative solutions not restricted soley to Crown construction such as leasing, lease-purchase and build-to-lease. However, the economic factor is not necessarily the ultimate criteria as consideration must also be given to other objectives within the context of broader social, environmental, and other considerations.
2. The Department of Public Works has entered into a five-year lease, commencing November 1, 1974, for approximately 4,472 square feet of post office accommodation in Spruce Grove, Alberta. The department recognizes the rapid population growth in the area and a decision will be made well before 1979 on the alternative solutions available to satisfy the requirements of various federal government departments and agencies in Spruce Grove. A government of Canada building already exists in Leduc, Alberta, which is adequate in so far as current and projected federal accommodation requirements are concerned. At the present time the Department of Public Works is renovating the ground floor to meet post office requirements.


PRISON SECURITY
Mr. Beatty: Since the attempted prison breakout in British Columbia, has the government drawn up plans it intends to implement in the near future to increase security at all federal prison facilities in order to give some measure of protection to persons living near the prisons and, if so, what are such plans and on what date will they be implemented?


William Warren Allmand: The Canadian Penitentiary Service has, in 1974, undertaken the organization of a security branch and the review of its operational and preventive security procedures. Perimeter and internal physical security facilities were increased in all major institutions across Canada and these were provided with new weapons and electronic equipment to prevent escapes and serious incidents. Emergency plans were prepared in all these institutions in conjunction with the Department of National Defence and the police forces, and dynamic security training programs were initiated. The Canadian Penitentiary Service security programs are
October 14, 1975

under constant review by the preventive security division so as to provide a maximum of security not only for the personnel of the institutions but also for the public in general. The report of the Farris commission of inquiry has now been received by the commissioner of penitentiaries and is under review. All recommendations will be considered carefully and appropriate action taken.


GRANTING OF BAIL
Mr. Beatty: 1.	For each year since 1970, what percentage ol persons charged with oflences for which bail could be granted (a) were granted bail (b) were granted bail but violated the terms of their bail?
2.	How many persons granted bail received it after (a) being convicted of a previous criminal offense (b) five or more previous convictions?
3.	What percentage of the total number of persons granted bail are represented by those described in Part 2?
4.	Since the proclamation of the Bail Reform Act, has the government conducted or commissioned any studies of the functioning of the Act and, if so (a) on what dates were such studies conducted (b) by whom (c) what were their conclusions?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. No such statistics are available. See answer to Question No. 2,802.
2	and 3. Not applicable.
4.	Yes. (a), (b) and (c)-After the passing of the Bail Reform Act a survey was conducted by Statistics Canada covering a sample of 12,698 persons charged with federal offences during the period January 1 to August 31, 1973. The results were turned over to the Justice Department on July 31, 1974 and were then analysed by an independent agency which reported to the department in late November. They were then sent to the provincial authorities for comment. The sample showed that about 91 per cent of persons included in the sample were released either by the police or by a justice or judge at some point before the final disposition of the case. Of these, about 6 per cent were known to have failed to appear in court at some time. The findings showed considerable variations in the operation of the act in the different regions. A summary of the results of the survey is contained in Mr. Lang's press release of February 10, 1975. In addition, a small piece of research on the working of the Bail Reform Act in the Ottawa region is being carried out by Ottawa University. Results so far indicate that there are considerable variations from one district to another. The study is expected to be completed before the end of the year and will eventually be published.


WAGE POLICIES
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Did the Honourable Daniel J. MacDonald, the Hpnourable Donald Jamieson and the Honourable Allan MacEachen endorse publicly a lull review ol existing wage policies applied to public servants in Atlantic Canada, particularly with respect to the issue of national wage parity in Halifax June 16, 1974?
2.	What is the government's best estimate of the number of public servants paid regional rates in the Atlantic Provinces at the present time, and what was the figure on or about June 16, 1974?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. Please refer to answer given to Question No. 1255. 2. The
Order Paper Questions
number of public servants paid regional rates in the Atlantic Provinces was 10,858 as at June 1974 and 11,766 as at June 1975.
Footnotes: (1) The source information does not identify specifically those people being paid regional rates. These figures were arrived at by identifying only the groups and subgroups in which regional rates are being paid.
Source: Master Output Support B'ile, Personnel Applications Centre, Department of Supply and Services.


CHILD CARE EXPENSES
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Is the government aware of the annual cost for child day care paid by residents of the Halifax-Dartmouth metropolitan area and, if so, what is it?
2.	What is the level of tax deductibility for such expense?
3.	Is the government considering changing such level and, if so, on what date?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Departments of National Health and Welfare, National Revenue and Finance as follows: 1. The maximum cost to residents of the Halifax-Dartmouth metropolitan area for child day care in centres approved by the province for provincial subsidies is $1,725 annually per child. Actual charges, however, are determined by means of a sliding fee scale based on family income and family size with federal-provincial subsidies to cover the deficit between such charges and the above maximum costs.
2.	This information is contained in the Tax Information Pamphlet "Child Care Expenses" which is available in all the District Taxation Offices and Information Canada.
3.	This deduction from income for income tax purposes was introduced to allow for expenses incurred by working parents. Any changes made in the level of the deduction would have to be considered in the context of budgetary policy.


TRANSPORT -EXPENDITURES ON NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION CONTRACTS
Mr. Elzinga: 1.	By province or territory, how much money did the Department of Transport spend in contract amounts with the National Capital Region singled out in (a) 1968 (b) 1969 (c) 1970 (d) 1971 (e) 1972 (f) 1973 (g) 1974?
2.	(a) What was the budget in contract amounts (b) what percentage of the budget was spent in each province or territory with the National Capital Region singled out in (i) 1968 (ii) 1969 (iii) 1970 (iv) 1971 (v) 1972 (vi) 1973 (vii) 1974?


Mitchell William Sharp: PROVINCE (a)(b)(c)(d)* (e)1972-73** (01973-74 (g)1974-75 (In thousands of dollars)
Newfoundland	14,706	16,347	27,309Prince Edward Island	3,006	3,395	3,204Nova Scotia	10,910	11,503	14,390New Brunswick	3,998	4,348	16,773Quebec	33,704	35,981	35,464
Order Paper Questions (In thousands of dollars)
Ontario	10,724	11,674	13,813Manitoba	3,507	3,722	4,419Saskatchewan	2,109	2,336	4,238Alberta	4,860	5,501	25,331British Columbia	19,540	20,066	23,277Yukon	702	800	748North West Territories	6,902	7,700	8,856National Capital Region* * ***	64,488	68,706	72,888Total	179,156	192,079	250,710
*data for these years is not available as statistics not maintained on a provincial basis until 1972-73
data maintained on fiscal year basis only
***includes expenditures which cannot be allocated by
province.
2. (a) Not available as budgets not maintained on a contract or provincial basis, (b) (i), (ii), (iii), (iv), (v), (vi), (vii) Not available as budgets not maintained on a contract or provincial basis.


EXPORTS OF CANADIAN GOODS
Mr. Forrestall: Does CIDA have any estimate of the dollar-value of any and all charges paid directly or with CIDA originating funds to port authorities, stevedoring agencies, handlers, etc. in the US since 1972 and (a) if so, what is it (b) if not, for what reason?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. (a) No. (b) Part of the answer to this question is similar to the reply provided to part 7 of Mr. Forrestall's question no. 1596 which reads as follows: "The information is not available". Thus in further response to this question the information is not available since it cannot be readily broken down into the components requested as previously indicated in the reply to part 5 of Mr. Forrestall's question no. 2,182.



Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Did the Minister of External Affairs order CIDA to undertake studies to determine what percentage of its aid shipments are using US ports and to determine what dollar value of CIDA funds are being funneled into US port authorities, stevedoring companies, handlers, etc. and (a) if so, on what date (b) if not, for what reason?
2.	Is the Minister aware of any shipments by CIDA aid through US ports in the past three years which could have with equal ease and convenience been handled by a Canadian port such as Halifax-Dartmouth?
3.	Would the Minister be prepared to cause an investigation to be made to determine if cases such as outlined in Part 2 have existed and, if not, for what reason?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. (a) No. (b) Such occurrences are exceptional.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable.



Mr. Forrestall: Does CIDA have any estimate of the percentage of its aid shipments which are moved through US ports and (a) if so, for the past two years what was it (b) if not, for what reason?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: (a) The percentage estimated for the past two years is less than 1 per cent, (b) not applicable.


CIDA EXPORTS
Mr. Forrestall: Are statistics maintained on the value of Canadian goods and products exported by CIDA and (a) if so, for each year since its inception what were such values (b) if not, for what reason?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: This question is the same as part 1 of Mr. Forrestall's question no. 1,596 and the answer as then is: Statistics on the value of Canadian goods and products exported by CIDA are not maintained and the analysis to obtain this information would be prohibitive in time, manpower and financial resources.


CIDA SHIPMENTS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	With reference to the answer to Part 4 (a) of Question No. 1,596 under what specific circumstances does CIDA or their agents permit deviations from the policy as stated in the answer that "all shipments shall normally be made from Canadian Ports"?
2.	Who is authorized to make such exceptions?
3.	Under what statutory authority are such exceptions made?
4.	How many such exceptions have been made in the past two years?
Hon. Allan J MacEachen (Secretary of State for External Affairs): (1) The specific circumstances under which deviations have been permitted from the policy as stated are as follows: (a) In 1974, 15,000 metric tons of relief food aid was shipped under CIDA's bilateral grant aid authority to alleviate a sorghum shortage. By arranging the shipment from Houston, Northern Sales (1963) Limited, Winnipeg, saved CIDA the cost of railway transport which would otherwise have been charged for shipment from the U.S. to a Canadian port, (b) In 1975, two swathers urgently required for the harvest were shipped to Peru under CIDA's bilateral grant aid authority. Panelpina World Transport Limited, Montreal, arranged the land transportation to catch the shipment out of Long Beach for delivery by February, (c) In 1973, 56 metric tons of milk powder was produced for the World Food Program under CIDA's multilateral grant aid authority. The shipment was arranged in response to the Food and Agricultural Organization's priorities and as no vessels were available at that time in Canadian ports it was shipped out of Tampa, (d) Also under special circumstances specific components and items ordered by developing countries or their designate agents from Canadian suppliers under CIDA's loan and line of credit purchase authority have been shipped from U.S. ports to facilitate direct procurement.
(2)	Program managers.
(3)	Government contract regulations.
(4)	Those indicated in part 1.
October 14, 1975



Mr. Forrestall: Do CIDA and/or its agents have any procedures which permit them to monitol the policy enunciated in the answer to Part 4 (a) of Question No. 1,596 that "all shipments shall normally be made from Canadian ports" and (a) if so, what are such procedures (b) if not, with what degree of certainty can such a policy be enunciated?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: (a) Yes, CCC standard procurement procedures call for tenders quoting delivery to a Canadian port and all tenders are reviewed by CIDA. (b) not applicable.



Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Did CIDA request the Department of Supply and Services and/or the Canadian Commercial Corporation to give consideration to making further use of Canadian ports in exporting CIDA aid shipments and (a) if so, on what date (b) if not, for what reason?
2.	Has the Minister of External Affairs reviewed this situation and, if so, does he agree and accept it?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: (1) No, since the guidelines for arranging shipments in pursuance of the policy quoted in part in response to part 4 of Mr. Forrestall's question No. 2183 dated March 26, 1975 were developed jointly by CIDA and CCC in consultation with other government departments and the Canadian Export Association.
(2)	The minister has reviewed this situation and accepts that it is consistent with the government policy referred to and quoted in part in response to part 5 of Mr. Forrestall's question No. 2183 dated March 26, 1975.


DEPUTY SOLICITOR GENERAL
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): What is the total number and name of each agency, office or individual with any responsibility for security or intelligence matters which reports to Mr. Roger Tasse (a) in his capacity as Deputy Solicitor General (b) in any other capacity?


William Warren Allmand: Canadian Penitentiary Service, National Parole Board and Service, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Ministry Secretariat: Two, Mr. Robin P. Bourne. Nil. Assistant Deputy Minister, Police and Security; Mr. Walter Uhryniw, Security Officer. (a) Both report to Mr. Roger Tasse in his capacity as Deputy Solicitor General, (b) Not applicable.


FEDERAL REGULATORY AGENCIES
Mr. Beatty: What are the names of all federal regulatory agencies and, in each case (a) what is its present budget (b) what is its staff complement (c) for what statute(s) does it draw its authority (d) what are its functions (e) on what date was it first established (f) how has its staff complement and budget changed since its creation?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The
information requested on federal regulatory agencies is as follows: 1. Canadian Radio-Television Commission (a) $9,746,000. (b) 446 man-years, (c) Part II of the Broadcast-
Order Paper Questions
ing Act. (d) To regulate and supervise all aspects of the Canadian broadcasting system, (e) April 1, 1968. (f) First full year of operations appeared in the 1968-69 Main Estimates with a budget of $1,714,000 and 164 man-years, which is an increase of $8,032,000 and 282 man-years in seven years.
2.	Atomic Energy Control Board (a) $11,167,000 ($2,112,000 operating, $9,055,000 grants), (b) 83 man-years, (c) Atomic Energy Control Act. (d) The control and supervision of the development, application and use of atomic energy, (e) Incorporated February 1952 under the Companies Act. (f) First full year of operation appeared in the 1953-54 Main Estimates with a budget of $359,240 ($59,240 operating, $300,000 grants) and 10 man-years which is an increase of $10,807,760 ($2,052,760 operating, $8,755,000 grants) and 73 man-years in 22 years.
3.	National Energy Board, (a) $7,292,000. (b) 324 man-years. (c) National Energy Board Act. (d) To enquire into, hear and determine any matter concerning the producing, selling, buying, transmitting, exporting, importing or otherwise of hydrocarbons or power (e) November 1, 1959. (f) First full year of operation appeared in the 1960-61 Main Estimates with a budget of $496,260 and 57 man-years which is an increase of $6,795,740 and 267 man-years in 15 years.
4.	Foreign Investment Review Agency, (a) $3,512,500. (b) 159 man-years, (c) Foreign Investment Review Act. (d) To review and assess the acquisition of control of Canadian business enterprises by certain persons and of the establishment of new business in Canada by certain persons, (e) Partially proclaimed April 9, 1974; fully proclaimed July 17, 1975 (f) First full year of operation appeared in the 1975-76 Main Estimates with budget shown in (a) and (b) above; therefore there has been no change.
5.	Canada Labour Relations Board, (a) $2,371,000. (b) 99 man-years, (c) Part V of the Canada Labour Code Act. (d) The exercise of regulatory powers relating to bargaining rights; declaration of single employer and a single bargaining agent; the investigation, conciliation and disposal of complaints relating to unfair labour practices; the disposal of complaints relating to technological changes affecting a number of employees; and, the declaration of unlawful strikes or lockouts (e) Proclaimed March 1, 1973. (f) First full year of operation appeared in the 1974-75 Main Estimates with a budget of $1,671,000 and 95 man-years which is an increase of $700,000 and 4 man-years in one year.
6.	Public Service Staff Relations Board (a) $3,547,000. (b) 141 man-years, (c) Part I of the Public Service Staff Relations Act. (d) To administer the Act and in particular the employer- employee relations in the Public Service of Canada, (e) March 13, 1967. (f) First full year of operation appeared in the 1967-68 Main Estimates with a budget of $998,000 and 75 man-years, which is an increase of $2,549,000 and 66 man-years in eight years.
7.	Canadian Transport Commission (a) $292,040,000 ($20,124,000 operating, $271,916,000 payments), (b) 901 man-years, (c) Part I of the National Transportation Act.
(d)	To promote the co-ordination and harmonization of the operations of all carriers engaged in transport by railways, water, aircraft, extra-provincial motor vehicle transport and commodity pipelines through effective economic regulations (e) September 19, 1967. (f) First full year of opera-

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
tion appeared in the 1968-69 Main Estimates with a budget of $129,634,200 ($4,600,900 operating, $125,033,300 payments) and 384 man-years which is an increase of $162,405,800 ($15,523,100 operating, $146,882,700 payments) in seven years.


LAND ASSEMBLY UNDER NHA, 1960-75
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): 1.	How many acres of land have been assembled with funds granted or lent under the provisions of the National Housing Act in each of the years 1960 to 1974 and in 1975 to date?
2.	Of these, how many acres were used for (a) public housing (b) co-operative or non-profit housing (c) rental housing (d) privately owned housing?


Barnett Jerome Danson: I am advised by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation as follows: 1. See Table 1 attached.
2. Data on the disposition of land, in terms of its end use, assembled and serviced under the NHA, are not available.


TABLE 1.
[Stage Direction]
LAND ASSEMBLY AUTHORIZED UNDER THE NATIONAL HOUSING ACT Canada. 1960 - July 1975
(Acres)
	Federal-Provincial		Loans for Land	
	Partnership		Assembly	
	Section 40 Actjuisi-		Section 42 Acquisi-	
Year	tion	Development	tion	Developmei1960	283.50	75.92
*
1961		403.43
*
1962	359.80	373.80	**	**1963	4.20	496.40	* #	**1964	23.00	23.00	***	* *1965	186.10	246.10	* *	**1966	576.85	391.05	**	**1967	2,437.82	850.66	15.35	1968	6,903.60	535.90	2.51	1969	2,016.80	371.70	3,724.72	100.501970	738.00	240.42	2,055.20	299.501971	1,228.60	472.93	1,897.36	674.441972	2,318.70	673.49	902.09	470.391973	286.00	745.40	18,214.06	391.901974	680.33	403.93	10,530.05	1,368.801975 (Jan.-July)	163.00	1,131.35	353.58**Not applicable.

Mr. Herbert: Does the use of the expression Fete du Canada in the magazine Canada 1975 published by Statistics Canada indicate government

approval of the phrase to designate the Canadian holiday celebrated on July 1?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada reports that the designation "Fete du Canada" does not appear as such in "Canada 1975". The caption containing the phrase (using a lower case "f") applied to a celebration in honour of Canada's birthday on July 1st. The English version of the caption employed the phrase "celebrating July 1, Dominion Day".


AGRICULTURAL SERVICES CENTRES AGREEMENT
Mr. Hnatyshyn: What has been the cost to date of the Agricultural Services Centres Agreement with Saskatchewan and for what projects?


Mitchell William Sharp: The answer for the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is as follows: The cost to the federal government of the Agricultural Services Centres Program for Saskatchewan, including loans, from its inception to June 30, 1975, is $4,457,031.36. The program provides for improvement of water supply and waste disposal facilities, with these projects being undertaken at the centres listed below. Assiniboia, $21,532.85; Biggar. $74,111.45; Canora, $57,890.77; Esterhazy, $655,723.28; Estevan, $123,278.95; Hudson Bay, $308,882.05; Humbolt, $50,615.11; Kamsack, $5,725.80; Kindersley, $10,899.22; Lloydminster, $529,165.90; Maple Creek, $211,271.01; Melfort, $10,000.00; Melville, $11,307.28; Moose Jaw, $644,188.88; Moosomin, $18,446.92; Nipawin, $19,187.26; North Battleford, $175,428.59; Prince Albert, $20,021.38; Rosetown, $109,882.48; Shaunavon, $75,794.23; Swift Current, $508,871.78; Tisdale, $10,000.00; Unity, $6,352.39, Weyburn, $697,615.49; Wynyard, $93,838.29; Yorkton, $8,000.00; Saskatchewan Summary, $4,457,031.36.


CANADA DAY
Mr. Herbert: Does the use made by CBC of the title "Canada Day" in its programming on July 1 indicate genera! public acceptance of this terminology and has the government noted this indication of national approval?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that "Canada Day" was not used by the CBC as a description of the public holiday itself but as a program title for a particular production celebrating the anniversary of Confederation. On the French network of the CBC, the same program was titled "Fete du Canada". The CBC is not aware of any significant public reaction to the program title in English. The government feels that the majority of Canadians accept the terminology Canada Day/Fete du Canada.


DREE ADVERTISING
Mr. Brisco: Does DREE advertise in trade journals and magazines with reference to efforts to attract business and industry to areas receiving support under the DREE programme and, if so, where do responses go that are received from such ads?

October 14, 1975


Mitchell William Sharp: The reply for the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is as follows: No such advertising was carried out in 1974-75, nor to date in 1975-76.


TRAIL POST OFFICE
Mr. Brisco: 1.	On what date was the unloading ramp for the Post Office in Trail installed?
2.	How much was the cost of the (a) installation (b) loading and unloading ramp?
3.	How often is the facility used by the Trail Post Office?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Departments of Public Works and Post Office as follows: 1. December 6, 1974.
2.	(a) $4,158.00. (b) Improvements to the loading and unloading ramp in the form of a scissors lift: $6,442.00.
3.	The facility is not used at present, however it has been installed in readiness for handling inter-city containers.


STUDIES ON SUBJECT OF SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING
Mr. Beatty: Did the government conduct or finance any studies on the subject of subliminal advertising in either the electronic or print media and, if so (a) by whom were they conducted (b) what were their conclusions (c) what was the nature of the work done (d) on what date were they completed (e) what was their cost (f) what action has resulted from their recommendations (g) from whom can copies be obtained?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as the Department of Communications is concerned: no. In so far as the Canadian Radio-Television Commission is concerned: The Canadian Radio-Television Commission did not commission studies on subliminal advertising. However, in preparation for a public hearing on the subject, held on March 11th, 1975, an independent legal opinion and study of the status of subliminal advertising in other countries was obtained. The Research Branch of the Commission conducted a review of all existing studies on subliminal advertising. Both these documents were considered, in addition to the briefs submitted prior to the public hearing. These latter public representations are available from the Public Hearing Section of the CRTC Licensing Branch. As a result of the public hearing, the commission announced the following amendments to the Television Broadcasting Regulations on June 27, 1975: 1. The Television Broadcasting Regulations are amended by adding thereto, immediately after section 9 thereof, the following section: "9.1 (1) No station or network operator shall knowingly broadcast any advertising material that makes use of any subliminal device. (2) In subsection (1), "subliminal device" means a technical device that is used to convey or attempt to convey a message to a person by means of images or sounds of very brief duration or by any other means without that person being aware that such a device is being used or being aware of the substance of the message being conveyed or attempted to be conveyed."
Order Paper Questions DISTRIBUTION OF PUBLICATIONS


Mr. Herbert: 1.	Is the primary distribution of all publications the responsibility of the author department?
2.	Is there any centralized control of such activity?
3.	Does Information Canada only list publications that have been received from the author departments?
4.	If a publication has not been previously forwarded to Information Canada by the author department by what means can a Member of Parliament become aware of its existence before it is out of date?
5.	Do all government publications bear an issue date?


John Carr Munro: In so far as
Information Canada is concerned, the answers are as follows: 1. Yes, except for distribution to full-depository and selective-depository libraries, as described in article 67 of the Policy and Guide on Canadian Government Publications, which is the duty of Information Canada. Information Canada has the responsibility of being the main source for the distribution of priced publications.
2.	No.
3.	All priced publications appear in the Daily Checklist, as do publications received from the author departments.
4.	Not applicable.
5.	Yes.


GASOLINE AND DIESEL FUEL
Mr. Hnatyshyn: Is 29 percent of the gasoline and 40.6 percent of the diesel fuel sold each year in the Province of Saskatchewan used by farmers in the production of food and, if so, what efforts are being made by the government to develop alternatives to petroleum fuels for other prime movers (tractors) which can operate on other energy sources?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources reports as follows: About 29 percent of the gasoline and 40 percent of the diesel fuel sold each year in Saskatchewan are used by farmers. It is highly probable that gasoline and diesel oil will be the principal fuels for prime movers for a number of years into the future. While the use of alternative sources of energy for motor vehicles is not expected for many years, government research is directed to the most efficient application of energy in all of its uses and to conserving petroleum for its most important applications, including transportation.


REGIONAL EMPLOYMENT EFFECTS OF JUNE 1975 BUDGET
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Does the government have any estimate of the number of persons presently employed in Atlantic Canada who will lose their jobs as a result of the measures contained in the budget of June 23, 1975 and, if so, what is the figure for (a) Atlantic Canada (b) Nova Scotia?
2.	Does the government have any estimate .of the number of jobs which otherwise would have been created but which will be foregone in Atlantic Canada as a result of the budget of June 23, 1975 and, if so, what is the estimate for (a) Atlantic Canada (b) Nova Scotia?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. and 2. It is estimated that, at the national level, the net impact of the budgetary measures will be a small increase in employment; the strong employment effects of the

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
direct employment programs are a key factor in this result. While no detailed estimates have been made of the net impact on employment by region or province, it would be reasonable to expect the net increase in employment to be relatively larger is areas, such as Nova Scotia and the Atlantic provinces in general, which benefit particularly from the direct employment program. The overall fiscal stance resulting from the June budget remains stimulative, i.e. the shift to stimulus introduced by the November 1974 budget is maintained. Thus employment in all regions of the country is being sustained by the overall fiscal stance; further support to levels of employment and real income in Canada east of the Ottawa valley is provided by the continued significant subsidy on imported petroleum.


EFFECT OF $3.4 MILLION CUTBACK IN EXPENDITURES ON BEDFORD INSTITUTE OF OCEANOGRAPHY
Mr. Forrestall: What effect, if any, will the $3.4 million cutback in expenditures, on additional resources for fleet operations by the Department of the Environment have on the Bedford Institute of Oceanography?


Mitchell William Sharp: Curtailment of the department's fleet operations and the programs they support.


EFFECT ON SMALL CRAFT HARBOURS IN NOVA SCOTIA BY $10 MILLION CUTBACK
Mr. Forrestall: What projected small craft harbours in Nova Scotia will be affected by the $10 million cutback in government expenditures?


Mitchell William Sharp: Canso, Cape St. Mary's, Chester Basin, Chester Ironbound, Cheticamp Point, Dingwall, Gnaff Beach, Hampton, Meat Cove, Meteghan, New Haven, Pinkneg's Point, Point Aconi, Smelt Brook, Vogler's Cover, West Head.


NOVA SCOTIAN PROJECTS AFFECTED BY $10 MILLION CUTBACK BY DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Forrestall: What projected Nova Scotian projects will be affected by the $10 million cutback in funding of capital expenditures by the Department of Public Works?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: At the
present time we do not anticipate that any projected Nova Scotian projects will be affected by the $10 million cutback in funding of capital expenditures by the Department of Public Works.


NOVA SCOTIAN INTERESTS AFFECTED BY $135 MILLION CUTBACK IN FUNDING FOR FEDERAL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK
Mr. Forrestall: What projected funding for Nova Scotian interests will be affected by the $135 million cutback in funding for the Federal Business Development Bank?


Mitchell William Sharp: None. As a result of the deferral of the commencement of operations of the Federal Business Development Bank, and until it does commence operations, the Industrial Development Bank will continue to operate under its act of incorporation, meeting its requirements for funding from loan repayments, the sale of debentures to the Bank of Canada and the issue of share capital which under the Industrial Development Bank Act is subscribed by the Bank of Canada.


NATIONAL DEFENSE-EFFECTS OF CUTBACK IN CAPITAL EXPENDITURES ON MARITIME COMMAND
Mr. Forrestall: In what way will Maritime Command be affected by the $10 million cutback in capital expenditures by the Department of National
Defence?


James Armstrong Richardson: No capital expenditure projects have been cancelled in Maritime Command. However, some current savings in capital expenditure have been achieved by deferring two projects on the East Coast and one project on the West Coast. These are: (a) the consolidation of heavy electrical repair facilities of the ship repair unit at Halifax into one building; (b) the improvement of the Sonar capability of the East Coast destroyers; and (c) the modification of the bridge on each of the Patrol Frigates on the West Coast.


NEWFOUNDLAND-REGISTRATIONS AT MANPOWER CENTRES
Mr. Marshall: 1.	How many clients were registered at the Canada Manpower Centres in (a) Corner Brook (b) Gander (c) St. John's (d) Stephenville (e) Labrador (f) Grand Falls (g) Happy Valley during the first quarter of
1975?
2.	Of the clients registered in Corner Brook, Stephenville and St. Anthony during the first quarter of 1975, how many were between 14
and 25 years of age?


Robert Knight Andras: 1. The following are the numbers of clients registered as being without employment at month end for each month of the first quarter 1975.
January	February	March(a) Corner Brook	8,074	8,252	8,325(b) Gander	3,251	2,905	4,475(c) St. John's	24,006	24,879	25,803(d) Stephenville	3,872	4,172	4,679(e) Labrador City	420	554	508(tj Grand f alls	5,640	5,762	4,298(g) Happy Valley	351	487	762
2. During March, of the 8,325 clients registered in Corner Brook (includes St. Anthony) 3,263 were under 25 years of age and of the 4,679 registered in Stephenville 2,259 were below the age of 25.
October 14, 1975

Order Paper Questions
PUBLIC WORKS PURCHASE OF FINE ARTS	Department of Public Works commissioned, awarded or bought for all

Question No. 2,913-Mr. Ellis:	government buildings across Canada?
Since September 1972, what art has the Fine Arts Programme of the	Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Public Works):
September 72-73 Project	Artist	Work	Total CostFederal Building,	Serge Tousignant	Sculpture	$ 4,029.Matane, Province of Quebec Federal Building,	Pierre Heyvaert	Sculpture	3,100.Asbestos, Province of Quebec Federal Building,	J. J. Besncr	Sculpture	900.Amqui, Province of Quebec Canada Centre for Inland Waters	Merton Chambers	Mural	18,500.Burlington, Ontario Food and Drug Laboratories	Ed Zelenak	Sculpture	24,000.Scarborough, Ontario	Robert Markle	Mural	17,750.Great Lakes Forest Research Centre	Anne Kahane	Sculpture	23,000.Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario Statistics Canada	Zbigniew Blazeje	(not yet installed) Light Mural	24,093.45Ottawa, Ontario Food and Drug Laboratories	Martin Hirschberg	Sculpture	38,000.Ottawa, Ontario Place du Portage (1)	Henry Jones	(not yet installed) Sculpture	91,748.Hull, Province of Quebec	Maria Svatina	(not yet installed) Tapestry	15,000.Marcelle Ferron	Stained glass panels	27,129.National Science Library	Douglas Bentham	Sculpture	22,229.52Ottawa, Ontario	Glenn Lewis	Mural	13,179.Joyce Weiland	Quilt	9,000.Michael Hayden	Mural	20,554.Robin Mackenzie	Plant Mural	22,000.Nobuo Kubota	Sculpture	18,328.25Jean Noel	Banners	18,000.Freshwater Institute	Tony Tascona	Discs	48,681.55Winnipeg, Manitoba	George Norris	Sculpture	September 73-74 Federal Building	F. Soucy	Sculpture	7,000.Victoriaville, Province of Quebec Federal Building,	Carole Laflamme	Tapestry	3,000.Lacollc, Province of Quebec Federal Buildings,	Patricia Marshall	Mural	2,000.Salmon Arm, British Columbia Renovation, Ralston Building	Charlotte Lindgren	Tapestry	500.Halifax, Nova Scotia Renovations, Conference Centre	Bruce Garner	Doors	15,000.Ottawa, Ontario September 1974-July 1975 Federal Building	Richard Robertson	Sculpture	3,250.Amherst, Nova Scotia Post Office	Franqoise Dery	(not yet installed) Sculpture	4,256.Lac Megantic, Province of Quebec Post Office	Bill Vazan	Sculpture	3,200.Terrebonne, Province of Quebec Post Office	Louis Archambault	(not yet installed) Sculpture	5,000.St. Martin-Laval, Province of Quebec Post Office	Jean-Marie Delavalle	(not yet installed) Sculpture	6,000.Beloeil, Province of Quebec Post Office	F.d Falkenberg	(not yet installed) Sculpture	3,000.
8162

Order Paper Questions
September 73-74
Project
Downsview, Ontario Post Office Stouffville, Ontario Lester B. Pearson Building,
Ottawa, Ontario Place du Portage II Hull, Province of Quebec Statistics Canada Building,
Ottawa, Ontario Rideau Hall Ottawa, Ontario
Canadian Grain Commission Building, Winnipeg, Manitoba Churchill Town Complex Churchill, Manitoba
Federal Building,
Powell River, British Columbia
Artist
Patricia Fulford
Work
(not yet installed) Sculpture
Total Cost 2,500.
Charles Gagnon
Memorial Mural
50,000.
Robert Weghsteen	Mural
39,299.17
Micheline Beauchcmin
Dr. Charles Comfort Hull, Province of Quebec John Nugent
25 Baker Lake Wall Hangings 30 Paintings, prints and drawings by Eskimo and 20 Indian sculptures.
Total budget $78,000.
T apestry
(not yet installed) Portrait of Vanier
Sculpture (not yet installed)
(joint funded by the Manitoba Provincial Government and Federal Government; our share,
55 per cent $43,000.) 3 more commissions to be awarded Sherry Grauer	Sculpture
(not yet installed)
25.000. 4,559.22
60.000.
15,000.
8,000.
4,000.
5,414.70


EXPORT OF CANADIAN GOODS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	On what date did the government bring to the attention of CIDA officials Question No. 1,596 and on what date did CIDA provide a reply?
2.	What is the time period foreseen in the reply to Part 1 of Question No. 1,596 to complete the study referred to in the answer?
3.	Is the Minister of External Affairs satisfied with this decision and, if so, for what reason?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: (1) On February 14, 1975 and June 20,
1975.
(2)	No time period can be foreseen. Comparative statistics of Canadian Official Development Assistance and other official flows have been maintained by agreement with the Development Assistance Committee of the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, and are reported in the Annual Aid Review. Also, financial records as required for the management control of Canada's development assistance program, and by other control agencies, are maintained in accordance with the Financial Administration Act. Thus, goods and products exported under this program are not quantified statistically since there is an infinite number of things that can be classified in this manner and which can be selected according to the socio-economic basis of inquiry.
(3)	Yes, as explained in part 2 of this answer.


PUBLIC WORKS-ERECTION OF BUILDING IN WATER STREET AREA, SAINT JOHN, N.B.
Mr. Landers: In regard to the new Public Works building planned for the Water Street area of Saint John, New Brunswick (a) what is the present status of the project (b) where does it stand on the priority list in relation to other Public Works buildings in the Maritime Provinces?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. The
proposed new Government of Canada Building planned for Saint John, New Brunswick is at this time in the planning stage with completion not expected before 1980. The Department of Public Works is examining at this time the possible re-use, re-development or disposal of the existing Post Office building on Prince William Street. This building will be vacated by Canada Post Office in December, 1975 following completion of the new Post Office terminal building on Rothesay Avenue. Because of the tentative schedule for the new Government of Canada Building we expect to lease space from the private sector to meet government department client requirements for the next five years.
2. While the proposed new building does not have a priority rating at this time in relation to other planned Government of Canada Buildings in the Maritime provinces, it is planned to continue with the necessary studies for a completion date by 1980.


DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT &quot;AN INTERIM REPORT ON FREIGHT TRANSPORTATION IN CANADA&quot;
Mr. Forrestall: With reference to each port listed in exhibit 24 in the Department of Transport paper "An Interim Report on Freight Transportation in Canada" (a) what specific select commodities were used to obtain the 1974 volume handled figures (b) what was the source for each such
figure?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a) The specific select commodity groups included were iron ore, coal, grain, general cargo (including containers) and forest products, (b) The first column of Exhibit 24 would more properly be headed "Estimated Volume

October 14, 1975

Loaded 1971". The sources for the grain, iron ore, coal, forest products and general cargo commodity groups were Appendices B-l, B-2, B-3, B-5 and B-9 respectively of the January 22nd, 1975 draft Forecast Transportation Flows and Capacity Requirements 1990 prepared by the Transportation Development Agency. The original sources for the commodity data are the Shipping Report Part IV, 1971, Statistics Canada Catalogue No. 54-206 and the Shipping Report Part V, 1971, Statistics Canada Catalogue No. 54-207. However, a number of aggregations and estimates were made using these figures. These qualifications are listed on the following page: Appendix B-l-All Grains: All data are from Statistics Canada 54-207 but flows to Canadian ports are aggregated with the nearest large port so that, for example, Thunder Bay-Toronto flows include flows to Kingston, Collingwood, etc. Appendix B-2-Iron Ore: Vancouver and certain Sept lies iron ore data were provided by the Canadian Transport Commission Systems Analysis branch. Vancouver includes Tasu (British Columbia) etc. Toronto designates the port of Picton and Sudbury designates Depot Harbour and Little Current. All data except Vancouver and Sept lies originate from Statistics Canada 54-207. Appendix B-3-Coal: All data are from SC 54-207. Aggregation again is used with, for example, Toronto being used as a designation for the Southeastern Ontario ports, including most importantly Port Credit. Appendix B-5-Forest Products: Cargo loaded figures were estimated by adding the newsprint and pulpwood figures given in Statistics Canada 54-207 and multiplying by 10/7. Cargo imported figures came from direct aggregation of forest products in Statistics Canada 54-206. Appendix B-9-All Other Commodities: Data are obtained by subtracting figures in B-l through B-8 from Statistics Canada 54-206 numbers for the major ports. Clearly this is a rough estimate since the tables B-l to B-8 have ports representing large areas, but 54-206 does not. In compiling the first column of Exhibit 24 the figures in table B-9, All Other Commodities, were used as a proxy for general cargo. In fact, the general cargo figures that were included, by mistake inconsistently included cargo loaded, and cargo unloaded from certain origins. In addition, Exhibit 24 does not include revisions and corrections made in the final version of the TDA report, Forecast Freight Transportation Flows and Capacity Deficiencies 1990, dated April 1975. Finally, some small differences remain between the TDA Appendix B and the Shipping Report which are a result of approximations or minor inaccuracies.


DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT-COST OF FACILITIES MENTIONED IN PAPER
Mr. Forrestall: With reference to exhibit 24 in the Department of Transport paper "An Interim Report on Freight Transportation in Canada" and the figures mentioned therein for approximate investment required to achieve 1290 capacity (a) what specific port facilities were contemplated (b) what is the cost for each such facility for the ports of (i) Toronto (ii) Montreal (iii) Quebec City (iv) Saint John (v) Halifax?


Mitchell William Sharp: (a) No specific port facilities were contemplated, (b) Approximate investments required to provide 1,990 capacity at Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Saint John and
Order Paper Questions
Halifax are broken down into requirements for different commodity groups in the following way:
Port	Iron Ore	Coal	Grain	General Forest Cargo* Products	TotalToronto	3.0	25.0	($ Million) 0.5 -	28.5Montreal	-	-	5.0	(21.0)	26.0Quebec	-	-	-	100.0 3.0	103.0City	Saint	-	-	1.0	30.0 2.0	33.0John	Halifax	~	1.0	20.0 0.5	21.5
* Includes containers


NITROGEN FERTILIZER
Mr. Hnatyshyn: Has it been estimated that by 1980 there will be a demand for 2,257,000 tons of nitrogen fertilizer for the production of food in Canada requiring 103.8 billion cubic feet of natural gas and, if so, what steps is the government taking to ensure that farmers have an adequate supply at prices which will enable them to operate?


Eugene Whelan: Yes. A number of estimates have been made and the results vary depending on the assumptions used. Agriculture Canada estimates that Canadian farm use of nitrogen for fertilizer in 1980 will be in the range of 750,000 to 900,000 short tons. In terms of product as used by farmers the tonnage equivalent would be in the range of 1,875,000 to 2,225,000 tons. The natural gas required to produce the above amounts of nitrogen would be in the range of 30 to 36 billion cubic feet. The present and planned nitrogen and fertilizer production capacity in Canada is more than adequate to meet the expected demand in 1980 and the years following.


CTS-AIR TRAVEL ACCOMMODATION
Mr. Hnatyshyn: With reference to the answer to Question No. 2,697 concerning the rules governing entitlement through the Canadian Government Central Travel Service of public servants to first class air travel accommodation within or without Canada, for each year 1973, 1974 and to July 1, 1975 what are the statistics respecting (a) the total number of air flights taken (b) the number of flights taken on first class accommodation <c) the total dollar value of all such flights (d) the total dollar value of first class accommodation taken?
Hon. Jean-Pierre Goyer (Minister of Supply and
Services):
1975 to
1973	1974 end June
(a)	total number of air
flights taken	104,100	153,795	94,146
(b)	total number of flights taken on first class
accommodation	see note below
(c)	total dollar value of
all flights	$16,099,290 $24,847,415 $16,037,950
(d)	total dollar value of first class flight
accommodation taken	see note below
29669-33)4

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
Note: Individual departments have the responsibility for approving travel at a higher standard of accommodation in accordance with the reasons outlined in reply to question 2,697, Hansard, July 8, 1975, page 7352. Statistical records of individual cases generally are not maintained. The Central Travel Service does not maintain distinctive records of first class flights taken.


ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES FOR PROPOSED RAILWAY RIGHT BETWEEN PRINCE RUPERT AND GROUNDHOG, B.C.
Mr. Brisco: Were any environmental studies conducted by the government or with its assistance for the proposed railway right of way between Prince Rupert and Groundhog, British Columbia and, if so, where can a report of such studies be obtained?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Ministry of Transport for Canada and the Ministry of Lands, Forests and Water Resources for the Province of British Columbia requested Canadian National to have environmental studies made in the territory of the proposed Meziadin Branch Line. A report of those studies will be submitted later this year.


PERMISSION TO IMMIGRANTS TO IMPORT HAND GUNS
Mr. Brisco: Are immigrants permitted to import hand guns as part of their personal possessions and, if so, what controls are employed by Customs and/or RCMP?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as the Department of National Revenue is concerned: Immigrants may import hand guns as part of their personal effects but such guns are released to the importer only upon production to Customs of Criminal Code Permit C-301. It is the responsibility of the importer to make applications for this permit to the local police authorities where he intends to reside. This permit is merely an authority to transport a hand gun from the Customs clearing point to the police station where the registrar of firearms registers it and issues another appropriate Criminal Code Permit.


CANADIAN POLICE INFORMATION CENTRE COMPUTER
Mr. Beatty: 1.	With respect to the Canadian Police Information Centre computer (a) on what date were criminal record synopses first put on line to all terminals (b) how many synopses are currently available (c) how many are expected to be added each month (d) what sort of information about an individual is kept in his synopses?
2.	Are individuals whose records are placed in CPIC's data bank notified of such action and, if so, what procedures are available to them to challenge the validity of their synopses?

3.	Does the government intend to place vehicle registrations in CPIC's data bank?
4.	Does CPIC have any plans to further expand the categories of data in its data bank and, if so, what are they?


William Warren Allmand: By the Ministry of the Solicitor General: (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) 1. (a) July 2, 1975 (b) 1,027,718 (c) 3,500 (d) Individual's name, physical description, current status (free, on parole, incarcerated), date of first and last convictions, types of offence convictions, Fingerprint Section Number and classification.
2.	No.
3.	Matter presently being studied.
4.	No.


CROSS-LANDING OF GRAIN
Mr. Huntington: 1.	For each of the past two crop years what was the tonnage and cost effect of cross-hauling grain to meet grain order requirements from (a) Alberta to Thunder Bay (b) Manitoba and Eastern Saskatchewan to Vancouver and Prince Rupert?
2.	What were the ton-miles involved?
3.	What was the cost of such cross-haul to the (a) farmer (b) railroads (c) government by reason of subsidy?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. (a) Additional rail freight paid on grain shipped by the Canadian Wheat Board to Thunder Bay from country
points in	the Vancouver shipping region 1972-7 3 Pool Account 1973-74 Pool Account	
Wheat	$ 584,556	$ 10,979Oats	102,759	133,605Barley	183,382	306,468Total	$ 870,697	$ 451,052(b) Additional rail freight paid on grain	shipped by the
Canadian Wheat Board to Pacific Coast ports from country points in the Thunder Bay shipping region
1972-73 Pool Account 1973-74 Pool Account
Wheat	$1,912,434
Oats
Barley	5,159
Total	$1,917,593

2.	The cost in terms of manpower and time to provide an answer to this part of the question is prohibitive. It would be necessary for the Canadian Wheat Board to analyze shipping documents pertaining to more than 600,000 car shipments. It is estimated by the Board that in excess of 5,000 man-hours would be required to complete this analysis.
3.	(a) The additional rail freight costs paid by the Canadian Wheat Board, as outlined in part 1 (a) and (b) of this reply, are charges to the pool accounts and accordingly
October 14, 1975

are borne by the grain producer, (b) and (c) Not known by the Canadian Wheat Board.


CHARTERS BY CANADIAN NATIONAL FOR GULF SERVICE, SOUTH COAST SERVICE AND LABRADOR SERVICE
Mr. McGrath: 1.	What are the names of all charters by Canadian National for the (a) Gulf service (Cabot Strait) (b) South Coast service (c) Labrador service?
2.	Were tenders called for each charter?
3.	Was the contract, in each case, awarded to the lowest bidder?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. The following vessels are on charter by Canadian National Railways for service in East Coast Marine and Ferry Services, (a) Gulf: M.V. Marine Atlantica M.V. Marine Nautica M.V. Marine Cruiser M.V. Marine Seatrader. (b) Coastal: South Coast: M.V. Sarah; M.V. Clyde: M.V. Dunure; M.V. Marine Trader-, *M.V. Marine Sprinter *M.V. Marine Runner M.V. Percy M. Crosbie. North Coast: M.V. Kloster, M.V. Topsail Star; M.V. Marine Voyager; M.V. Mount Blair; M.V. Sandy Point; M.V. Stephenville; M.V. Newfoundland Coast; M.V. Marine Packer.
^Passenger Vessels
2.	The gulf vessels were obtained on the world market through ship's brokers. Offers were requested and the charters resulted from negotiations on the offers received. Canadian National Railways advise that coastal vessels are obtained through tender calls.
3.	Lowest offers are accepted subject to vessels meeting operational requirements of the service. A rating scale is developed for each vessel based on their various capabilities and past performance. The vessels are then selected on their achievement on the scale. This method of chartering for coastal vessels was approved by the Newfoundland Vessel Owners' Association.


INTERCEPTION OF MAIL BETWEEN CANADA AND UNITED STATES
Mr. Beatty: 1.	By year, since 1968, how many requests have been made by American authorities for the interception of mail coming from or going to the United States?
2.	In each case (a) by whom was the request made (b) what was the response of the government?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. The Post Office Department has not received any such requests.
2. (a) Not applicable (b) Not applicable.


PROSECUTIONS UNDER IMMIGRATION ACT, 1967-74
Mr. Friesen: 1.	How many travel agencies in (a) Vancouver (b) Toronto have been prosecuted for aiding and abetting persons to enter Canada with false documentation under the Immigration Act for each year 1967 to 1974?
2.	In each case (a) how many convictions were obtained (b) what penalties were assessed?
Order Paper Questions


Robert Knight Andras: 1 and 2. To provide an accurate response to this question would require a manual examination of departmental records and additional staff to do it. Immigration officials however, cannot recollect any travel agencies in Vancouver or Toronto that have been prosecuted for the reasons stated in the question between 1967 and 1974.


REPAIRS TO FISHING PORT FACILITIES AT GRAHAM'S POND, P.E.I.
Mr. MacLean: Has the Department of Public Works made repairs to the damage caused by the storm of September 20, 1974, to the fishing port facilities at Graham's Pond, PEI and, if so (a) what was the cost involved (b) what was the nature and extent of the repairs and were they completed before the opening of the lobster fishing season of 1975 (c) who were the contractors or individuals employed and how much was paid to each?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: The
department was not aware of damage caused by any storm of September 20, 1974 at Graham's Pond. The Department has made partial repairs to the damage caused by the storm of October 20, 1974. (a) Cost involved to date-$13,229.65. (b) and (c) Cleanup of debris from landings-performed by Andrew Mackenzie-Cost $990.00. Deck repairs to south breakwater-performed by William	MacEwen-Cost
$3,302.20. Crane dredging to remove debris and sand from inner run-performed by Joseph Chaisson-Cost $4,773.45. The above work was completed last fall. Further crane dredging to remove debris and sand from outer run performed prior to lobster season this spring by Joseph Chaisson-Cost $4,164.00. Tenders closed on July 23, 1975 for repairs to outer breakwaters and shore protection. This will complete the repairs.


MATSQUI INSTITUTION
Mr. Patterson: 1.	How many day passes were issued to inmates of Matsqui Institution from January 1 to June 30, 1975?
2.	How many different individuals were recipients of day passes during the same period?
3.	How many violations of such passes were registered during the same period?
4.	How many different individuals were involved in such violations?
5.	Were any day passes issued to inmates of the Matsqui Medical Centre in the same period and, if so, how many?
6.	How many offenders incarcerated in Matsqui Institution since January 1974 are illegally at large?


William Warren Allmand: Canadian Penitentiary Service National Parole Board and Service
"day passes" means permits "day passes" means certificates
covering temporary leave of of day parole
absence
1.	652	1.	842.	312	2.	823.	None	3.	None4.	None	4.	None5.	13	5.	36.	not applicable	6.	2
October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions POST OFFICE-WHITE ROCK, B.C.


Mr. Friesen: 1.	Has the government any immediate plans to build a post office in White Rock, British Columbia and, if so, on what date will tenders be called?
2.	If a building is to be rented (a) what date has the government given to the landlord for possession (b) what is the negotiated lease price?
3.	Where will the post office be located?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: In so far as the Department of Public Works is concerned: 1. The government has no immediate plans to erect a new Post Office building in White Rock, British Columbia.
2.	It is intended to satisfy the Post Office requirement on a rental basis, however no suitable facility has yet been identifid and therefore no possession date determined or lease price negotiated.
3.	The Post Office will be located in White Rock, British Columbia, at a location which is acceptable to Canada Post Office.


SUPPLY AND SERVICES CONTRACT NO. 11ST T8200-4-4523 (OST5-0002)
Mr. Beatty: With reference to Supply and Services contract No. 11ST T8200-4-4523 (OST5-0002) described as "theoretical and experimental development programme in connection with the dynamic interaction between a railway train and its track" which will cost the taxpayers $421,000 (a) what is the purpose of the project (b) were tenders called and, if so (i) who were the other bidders (ii) what were their bids (c) on what date is the project scheduled to be completed?


Hon. Jean-Pierre Goyer (Minister of Supply and Services):: (a) Purpose of the project is to obtain a better understanding of the interaction between a moving train and its stationary track with the objective of improving operations and the safety of users, (b) Tenders were not called because the requirement is a continuation of a Ministry of Transport-Canadian National Railways shared cost research programme, (c) The work under the present contract is scheduled to be completed by March 31, 1976.
Note: The contract file number for the work described in the question is 14ST-T8200-4-4514 rather than the number quoted in the question.


INTERCEPTION OF MAIL IN THE UNITED STATES
Mr. Beatty: 1.	By year since 1968, how many requests have been made to American authorities by the government for the interception of mail in the United States?
2.	In each case (a) what was the reason for the request (b) by whom was it made (c) what was the American response?
[Mr. Allmand.j


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. The Post Office Department has not made any such
requests.
2. (a) Not applicable; (b) Not applicable.


TAX CREDIT FOR REFINERS OF USED CRANKCASE AND INDUSTRIAL OIL
Mr. Schellenberger: Has the government considered introducing a tax credit for re-refiners of used crankcase and industrial oil as an incentive in order that millions of gallons of such oil may not be lost?


Mitchell William Sharp: The government has not considered a special tax credit for refiners of used crankcase and industrial oil. However, machinery and equipment used to process such oil is eligible for the two-year fast write-off as well as the 5 per cent investment tax credit thereby providing incentive to stimulate investment in such activities. It is felt that further tax incentives to encourage the recycling of such products would have a negligible effect on additional investment.


AIR CANADA-WESTERN CANADA FLIGHTS TO ENGLAND
Mr. Huntington: 1.	Does Air Canada service Western Canada with flights direct to England and, if not, for what reason?
2.	Does Air Canada have charter flights out of Western Canada to Hawaii, Mexico or the Caribbean and, if not, for what reason?
3.	Is an Air Canada pilot living in Vancouver paid $17,000 per annum less than a pilot with the same seniority and qualifications living in Montreal and, if so, for what reason?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: 1. Yes, with flights from Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg.
2.	The availability of Air Canada aircraft for charter purposes has been rather limited and as a result, the airline's priority has been to serve its own online route sectors first. The airline does not operate scheduled, direct services from western Canada to Hawaii, Mexico and the Caribbean and these areas are considered off line points. Nevertheless, a charter operation from western Canada to Hawaii is being conducted beginning this year and there are provisional plans to include other areas beginning next year.
3.	Air Canada pilots are paid according to a formula based on their status as Captain, First Officer or Second Officer. Assuming they are flying the same type of aircraft, pilots with the same seniority, status and qualifications are paid the same in Montreal and Vancouver.


EGG PRICES
Mr. Gray: Are prices to be paid for eggs in Canada following the imposition of controls on imports of eggs from the United States and the recent amendments to the federal-provincial agreement on egg marketing now to be based on a cost of production formula and, if so (a) what is the formula (b) how was such a formula derived?
October 14, 1975


Eugene Whelan: The
amendments to the federal-provincial agreement call for a reasonable return over time to producers and in order to achieve this objective CEMA has adopted a cost of production approach. (A) See Sessional Paper No. 301-4/73. (B) The formula was prepared by P.S. Ross & Partners, a firm of consultants who did an exhaustive study over a period of many months.


EGGS-PRODUCTION LEVELS
Mr. Gray: What steps have been taken to ensure that production levels set by the Farm Products Marketing Council and/or the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency pursuant to the federal-provincial agreement on egg marketing, as recently amended, accurately reflect domestic demand?


Eugene Whelan: CEMA, in consultation with the Farm Products Marketing Council, are continually monitoring production; inventories and disappearance. The quotas have been reduced by 10 per cent in all provinces with more than 2 per cent of the national quota.



Mr. Gray: Do the production levels set by the Farm Products Marketing Council and/or the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency pursuant to the federal-provincial agreement on egg marketing, as recently amended, reflect demand and, if so, what controls have been instituted to ensure that production will not exceed these levels?


Eugene Whelan: See
answer to Question 2,948. Heavy penalties have been set under the recent amendment to the federal-provincial agreement and each provincial board has provided a bond to CEMA to ensure payment of any necessary penalties.


EGGS-INTERPROVINCIAL TRADE
Mr. Gray: What steps have been taken to ensure that no barriers to interprovincial trade will occur under the new programme arising out of the federal-provincial agreement on egg marketing, as recently amended?


Eugene Whelan: Free movement of eggs interprovincially is a requirement of the Federal-Provincial Agreement.


EGG PRICES AND SURPLUS REMOVAL
Mr. Gray: Has CEMA been instructed to account publicly for all its decisions affecting egg prices and surplus removal and, if so, how will this be done?


Eugene Whelan: CEMA functions within the framework of a Federal-Provincial agreement supervised by the Farm Products Marketing Council. The Council will issue regular reports regarding the activities of all agrencies as provided in the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act.
Order Paper Questions EGG PRICES


Mr. Gray: When US egg prices rise, what assurance does the Canadian consumer have that domestic egg prices will not also rise?


Eugene Whelan: Should U.S. egg prices rise to provide an incentive for increased exports of eggs from Canada to the U.S.A., the Export and Import Permits Act would be used to protect supply and maintain reasonable prices in Canada.


EGG PRICES
Mr. Gray: According to CEMA projections, what will be the new egg prices in each province once the new egg marketing programme arising out of the federal-provincial agreement on egg marketing, as recently amended, is fully operational?


Eugene Whelan: See
answer to question number 2947. The producer prices are being published weekly by Agriculture Canada and are available to the public.


SURPLUS EGGS
Mr. Gray: How many eggs have been removed as surplus from the Canadian market by (a) CEMA (b) provincial egg marketing agencies on behalf of CEMA during each week from and after April 1, 1974 to date?


Eugene Whelan: CEMA provided the following information. The figures below sets out the volume of eggs bought from egg grading stations in each week since April 1, 1974. These are not necessarily surplus to the Canadian market but surplus to the local market of that particular grading station at that point in time. The volume of eggs set out below was sold by CEMA (A) to the processing trade for manufacturing into products utilized by the bakery industry; (B) offshore for table use, and (C) into the USA for direct processing or for processing on a custom basis at time when Canadian processors were unable to process the volume on offer. Within the period CEMA has been financially responsible for all removals.
Date	15 Dozen Boxes	Date	15 Dozen Boxes6/4/74	47,399	4/1/75	101,93513/4/74	32,589	11/1/75	132,27220/4/74	74,713	18/1/75	60,07827/4/74	86,339	25/1/75	37,9334/5/74	83,494	1/2/75	50,91111/5/74	75,686	8/2/75	66,48018/5/74	70,445	15/2/75	70,60725/5/74	70,358	22/2/75	54,2501/6/74	90,241	1/3/75	31,5058/6/74	88,716	8/3/75	40,65515/6/74	92,202	15/3/75	25,29322/6/74	102,958	22/3/75	29,238
October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
29/6/74	85,614	29/3/75	42,8026/7/74	62,285	5/4/75	46,52013/7/74	73,943	12/4/75	20,55920/7/74	74,114	19/4/75	14,82027/7/74	68,301	26/4/75	16,6683/8/74	60,882	3/5/75	24,51810/8/74	25,507	10/5/75	38,28017/8/74	22,957	17/5/75	47,52024/8/74	42,524	24/5/75	53,69931/8/74	35,805	31/5/75	42,4117/9/74	36,013	7/6/75	51,01214/9/74	35,268	14/6/75	38,87421/9/74	25,424	21/6/75	36,70328/9/74	26,912	28/6/75	45,7005/10/74	28,654	5/7/75	37,50112/10/74	33,183	12/7/75	37,25719/10/74	26,707	26/10/74	32,087	2/11/74	37,324	9/11/74	38,760	16/11/74	35,360	23/11/74	23,755	30/11/74	10,012	7/12/74	7,926	14/12/74	18,838	21/12/74	30,114	28/12/74	26,547


IMPORTED EGGS
Mr. Gray: How many eggs have been imported into Canada during each week from and after April 1, 1974 to date?


Eugene Whelan: The information is available from Statistics Canada publication- Trade of Canada Imports by Commodities Catalogue 65-007, Class 53-19.


EGGS IN STORAGE
Mr. Gray: For each province, what were (a) the maximum (b) the minimum lengths of time that eggs that were in storage under the jurisdiction of (i) CEMA (ii) provincial egg marketing boards in each week since April 1, 1974 had been in storage during each such week?


Eugene Whelan: See
answers to questions 2,956 and 2,957.


WASTAGE OF EGGS
Mr. Gray: What steps have been taken to ensure that the wastage of eggs which occurred in 1974 will not be repeated?


Eugene Whelan: See
answer to Question 2948. Also CEMA now require that all surplus to table egg requirements owned by CEMA be sold for processing within 7 days.


DEGRADE CANADIAN SURPLUS EGGS
Mr. Gray: Is it the intention of the government, while restricting imports of table eggs, to degrade Canadian surplus eggs and sell them in export markets for processing rather than make them available to lower income Canadians through special programmes or otherwise?


Eugene Whelan: The
matter of egg marketing is the responsibility of CEMA under the terms of the legislation approved by Parliament and through an agreement approved by ten provincial governments and the federal government. The matter of import controls to protect supply management was authorized by Parliament under the Export and Import Permits Act and the volume of imports allowed under that Act relate to the volume imported in the base period 1969 to 1973. Respecting disposal of eggs see answer to question 2959.


CEMA-EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
Mr. Gray: Will the Executive Committee to be appointed to direct CEMA include representatives of non-producers as recommended by the Food Prices Review Board in its second egg report and, if not, for what
reason?


Eugene Whelan: Yes. The Committee of three, which has been appointed, includes one person who is a non-producer, one person whose main business is poultry and the Vice-Chairman of CEMA.


VITAMIN E CONTENT IN WHEAT AND WHITE FLOUR
Mr. Reid: 1.	What is the naturally occurring Vitamin E content of (a) No. 1 northern wheat (b) one loaf of bread made with (i) refined white flour (ii) whole wheat flour?
2.	Does the government approve the adding of synthetic or natural Vitamin E to refined white flour products and, if so, is this actually the case in Canada?


Marc Lalonde: 1. (a) Although data relating to No. 1 northern wheat are not available, values for wheat range between 5 and 18 fig/g, with an average of 12 Mg/g. (b) (i) Bread (refined white flour) 174 pg/loaf; (ii) Bread (whole wheat) 700 pg/loaf.
2. The department endorses the general principle that nutrients lost during the processing of foods should be restored but there are technical difficulties to the addition of vitamin E to flour which have not yet been overcome. Vitamin E is not added to refined white flour products in Canada.


DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL-POSITION OF MR. HENRY POPP
Mr. Dick: 1.	What is the position of Mr. Henry Popp in the Department of the Solicitor General?
2.	Was Mr. Pop a member of a board on the enquiries on the (a) Millhaven prisoner escape (b) Kingston Penitentiary riot (c) Vancouver hostage situation or on any other investigations or enquiries?
October 14, 1975

3.	Did Mr. Popp serve on these enquiries in any other capacity and, if so, what were they?


William Warren Allmand: 1. Director, Operational Security, Security Branch, Canadian Penitentiary Service.
2.	(a) No. (b) Yes. (c) Yes. Mr. Popp served also as Commissioner of Inquiry into the enquiry on the escape of eleven inmates from Saskatchewan Penitentiary on November 25, 1970.
3.	In connection with the Kingston Penitentiary riot, Mr. Popp served as a member of the Commission of inquiry under Mr. J. W. Swackhammer, Q.C. In relation to the British Columbia hostage-taking incident, he is a member of the Commission of Inquiry under the chairmanship of Chief Justice John Farris.


STUDIES BY NRC INVOLVING THE OBSERVATION AND TIMING OF PEOPLE'S USE OF WASHROOMS
Mr. Beatty: 1.	Has the National Research Council conducted studies involving the observation and timing of people's use of washroom facilities and, if so (a) what has been the cost to date (b) what is the total projected cost (c) what are the component costs?
2.	Besides the washrooms of the National Arts Centre (a) in what washroom have NRC's researchers been stationed (b) in what other washrooms are they going to be stationed?
3.	For what reason does the government believe timing the use of washroom fixtures is necessary for the advancement of science?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: In so far as the National Research Council of Canada is concerned, the answer is as follows: 1. Yes (a) and (c) $79,000 comprised of Labour $35,000; Computer time $2,500; Travel $1,500; Equipment $500. Overhead $39,500; Total $79,000. (b) Total projected cost will depend on results of the current work. The study is probably around 40 per cent completed.
2.	(a) Studies have also been conducted in a shopping plaza and three grandstands, (b) It is intended to extend this work to include offices, industrial plants, schools, movie theatres and restaurants.
3.	Basic information on washroom use is needed to develop satisfactory building standards. Local standards differ in their requirements by factors up to 22, i.e. one authority requires 1 fixture, where another authority requires 22. At an average cost approaching $2,000 per fixture (including auxiliary plumbing and space requirements), it is clear that a great deal of money is being wasted under some code requirements, whereas in other situations insufficient facilities are provided. Initial studies indicate that shopping plazas are being required to provide twice as many washroom facilities as necessary. It is estimated that more than $1 million a year could be saved in plazas alone by improving building standards.


ELECTRICAL ROAD VEHICLES
Mr. Robinson: Are any provincial agencies or private business concerns testing electrical road vehicles and, if so (a) what kinds of vehicles are being tested (b) where are they manufactured (c) what do they cost?
Order Paper Questions


Mitchell William Sharp: British Columbia Hydro is testing a delivery van manufactured by Battronic in Boyertown, Pennsylvania at a basic price of approximately $10,000 before duty and taxes. They are also going to test five Japanese Subaru delivery vans converted by a U.S. firm at a cost of approximately $5,000. They also plan to test the British Enfield car when available. The Manitoba government plans to test delivery vans made in the U.S. by OTIS and Battronic. The cost of these vehicles is approximately $8,000 and $10,000 respectively before duty and taxes. Quebec Hydro is also testing both the OTIS and Battronic delivery vans. One private business concern has imported two Sebring Vanguard Citi-Cars, two Italian Elcars, Electromotion Islander (recreational vehicle) and a delivery van from the U.S., to evaluate for the Canadian market. The CitiCar sells in the U.S. for just under $3,000 and the Elcar suggested U.S. price for model 1000 is $2,995 while the model 2000 is $3,395.


STUDIES AND DEVELOPMENT OF ELECTRICAL ROAD VEHICLES
Mr. Robinson: Is the government under the Energy Conservation or Energy Management Programme allotting any funds toward studies and development of electrical road vehicles?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and Industry, Trade and Commerce as follows: No funds are being allotted.


GOVERNMENT TESTING OF ELECTRICAL ROAD VEHICLES
Mr. Robinson: Is the government testing any electrical road vehicles at the present time and, if not, on what date will tests be conducted?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Canadian Post Office has tested an OTIS delivery vehicle in Toronto and will test five American Motor's electrical jeeps in five locations across Canada this fall. One vehicle based on a golf car chassis is being used by the Department of Communications, Research Centre at Shirley's Bay outside of Ottawa.


REGULATIONS RESPECTING PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AND POTENTIAL EMPLOYEES
Mr. Beatty: 1.	On behalf of what (a) departments (b) agencies (c) boards (d) commissions (e) Crown corporations does the Department of National Health and Welfare undertake psychological testing of employees or potential employees?
2.	In each case (a) what is the purpose of such tests (b) what categories of employees or potential employees would be subject to such tests (c) who is responsible for administering the tests (d) who is responsible for interpreting their results (e) what are their qualifications?
3.	In each case (a) would refusal to participate in the tests in any way jeopardize the career of an employee or a potential employee and, if so, in what way (b) is the individual involved given full access to the results of the test and, if not, for what reason (c) what procedure is followed for the systematic purging of files on individuals involved
8170

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
when information gained is no longer directly relevant (d) what is the number of files currently maintained on individuals?
4.	For what reason did the Department of National Health and Welfare not reply to Question No. 2,402 as anticipated in Part 2(c) of the reply by the National Harbours Board?
5.	What are the Public Service Commission and Treasury Board regulations respecting psychological testing of government employees and potential employees?


Mitchell William Sharp: am informed by the Department of National Health and Welfare and Treasury Board Secretariat as follows: 1. Psychological testing is a part of the Public Service Health program that is available to all departments and agencies that fall under the Financial Administration Act. It is also available to Crown corporations who request services from National Health and Welfare.
2.	(a) The purpose of testing is to aid in establishing a health profile or diagnosis in the assessment of an employee's health status as it relates to the safe, healthy, and effective performance of his duties. (It is important to emphasize the difference between psychological testing, and psychological assessment. Psychological testing is done by utilizing a whole battery of tests and aims at something in particular, such as behaviorial pattern. Psychological assessment may be a part of any comprehensive medical examination), (b) There is no routine psychological testing done on categories of employees. In any assessment of the health of some groups of employees, however, particular attention is directed to a psychological assessment because of the nature of the work. These groups are: 1. Personnel posted to isolated posts. 2. Lightkeepers, including dependents resident at remote locations. 3. Personnel serving abroad (including dependents), (c) Tests are administered by a psychiatrist or psychologist, (d) Interpretation is by the health professional who administers the tests, (e) Specialty qualifications as established by the governing body of the profession.
3.	(a) Refusal would result in the Department of National Health and Welfare reporting to a department that an accurate or complete assessment of the employee's health status is impossible to make due to incomplete data. The effect of incomplete health profiles on the employability of an individual is impossible to assess since National Health and Welfare exercises no control over staffing authorities in the manner of employment or promotions, (b) The individual has a right to know the results of any examination by the Department of National Health and Welfare either through direct discussion with the Health and Welfare professional, or where it is deemed in his best interest, through a full disclosure to a physician of the employee's choice, (c) No separate psychological test files are maintained on individuals. However, the results of an individual's psychological test are maintained as part of his/her medical files. Medical files are kept in strict confidentiality by the Medical Services Branch. They are kept active for two years, then dormant for three. After this five year period, they are destroyed, (d) In Medical Services, nine regions are in possession of files of this nature and the number can reach in the tens of thousands; to give an accurate figure would require intensive time and manpower and would be a serious cost to this branch.
4.	Question No. 2,402 part 2(c) was not replied to by the Department of National Health and Welfare since the
[Mr. Beatty.)
question was interpreted as applying to the Department itself and to no other area of the government.
5.	Treasury Board regulations and requirements respecting health evaluations, including psychological assessments where applicable, of employees of departments or other portions of the Public Service of Canada listed in Part 1 of Schedule A to the Public Service Staff Regulations Act, are provided for in the Foreign Service Directives, the Isolated Posts Regulations and in the Public Service Periodic Health Evaluation Standard.


DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Reid: 1.	Do employees of the Department of the Environment, working in Hull, pay into the Quebec Pension Plan and do they pay Quebec income tax and, if so, are there any employees who do not pay into the Quebec Pension Plan or who do not pay Quebec income tax?
2.	Are all employees of the Department of the Environment in the Ottawa-Hull area headquartered in Hull and, if not (a) what groups are headquartered elsewhere in the National Capital area (b) for what reason?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. Yes. The department is unaware of any exceptions.
2. No. (a) There are a number of departmental offices, laboratories and warehouses located outside of Hull but in the national capital area. The principal groups are the Fisheries and Marine Service and the Eastern Forest Products Laboratory, both of which are located in Ottawa, (b) The majority of facilities occupied by the Department of Environment in Ottawa were units of other departments prior to the formation of DOE and had been held by those units for some time. The two main office buildings occupied by the department in Hull do not have sufficient floor space to accommodate all departmental staff in the national capital area.


LOCKS AT STE-ANNE-DE-BELLEVUE, QUEBEC
Mr. Herbert: What is the record to date of the (a) number of boats (b) amount of toll charges collected (c) additional collection costs at the locks at Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec?


Hon. Judd Buchanan (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: (a) Number of vessels locked- 1818. Number of lock operations-1220. (b) Revenue from toll charges to July 17, 1975-$9,767. (c) Collection costs to July 17, 1975-$3,715.


CANADIAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION-FORMATION OF OIL EXPLORATION COMPANY
Mr. Herbert: Did the President of the Canadian Development Corporation, Mr. H. A. Hampson, give prior indication to the government of the intention to (a) acquire or form a Canadian oil exploration company (b) form an oil exploration company and, if so, what means will be used to prevent duplication of effort by this autonomous corporation?


Mitchell William Sharp: The government, through its representation on the board of directors and executive committee of the Canada De-
October 14, 1975

velopment Corporation, is kept informed of the CDC's investment intentions, including its present interest in investing in the oil industry. The CDC and the government have agreed to consult and cooperate in such oil related undertakings so as to avoid any undesirable duplication or conflict.


IMMIGRATION OF CARIBBEANS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Caribbeans have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: The information requested is contained in Immigration statistical publications. These are published annually and are available from Information Canada or the Department of Manpower and Immigration. (See- Rules and Forms of the House of Commons of Canada, Beauchesne (1958) section 171 (ff)).


IMMIGRATION OF INDIANS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Indians have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question no. 2,991 answered this day.


IMMIGRATION OF PAKISTANIS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Pakistanis have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.


IMMIGRATION OF UNITED STATES CITIZENS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Americans have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.


IMMIGRATION OF BRITISH SUBJECTS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many British have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.
Order Paper Questions


IMMIGRATION OF FRENCH SUBJECTS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many French have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.


IMMIGRATION OF CHINESE TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: 1.	How many Chinese have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive?
2.	How many came from (a) Mainland (b) Taiwan (c) Hong Kong?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.


IMMIGRATION OF AFRICANS TO CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Africans have emigrated to Canada in each of the years 1945 to 1975 inclusive (a) from what countries (b) how many have arrived from each country?


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to question No. 2,991 answered this day.


NUMBER OF RASTAFARIANS IN CANADA ILLEGALLY
Mr. Robinson: How many Rastafarians in Canada are here illegally (a) will they be deported and, if so, on what date (b) where are they located in Canada?


Robert Knight Andras: Since persons in the country illegally would not normally make their presence known to government sources, there is no way to estimate their numbers, nor where they are located, in Canada. When such persons come to our attention appropriate enforcement action is taken.


NUMBER OF RASTAFARIAN BRETHREN IN CANADA
Mr. Robinson: How many Rastafarian Brethren are there in Canada and from what countries did they come?


Robert Knight Andras: No information about the religious beliefs of persons immigrating to Canada is recorded. It is therefore not possible to respond to this question.


NUMBER OF RASTAFARIAN BRETHREN WHO HAVE BECOME CANADIAN CITIZENS
Mr. Robinson: How many Rastafarian Brethren have become Canadian citizens or have obtained landed immigrant status?
29 669-34!/2

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Robert Knight Andras: See reply to Question No. 3,000 answered this day.


ETHNIC BREAKDOWN OF POPULATION OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO
[Stage Direction]
<** includes English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.
<2>
includes Danish, Icelandic, Norwegian and Swedish.
For further information on ethnic groups see Bulletin 92-723.
Mr. Robinson: What is the ethnic breakdown of the population of Metropolitan Toronto?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada reports that according to the 1971 Census of Canada the population distribution by ethnic origin for the Census Metropolitan Area of Toronto is: British Isles (1), 1,495,300; France, 91,975; Austrian, N.O.S., 7,880; Chinese, 26,285; Czech, 9,975; Finnish, 8,920; German, 116,640; Hungarian, 23,350; Italian, 271,755; Japanese, 11,690; Jewish, 109,910; Native Indian, 6,475; Negro, 12,335; Netherlands, 44,425; Polish, 51,180; Russian, 5,270; Scandinavian (2), 18,355; Slovak, 4,490; Ukrainian, 60,755; West Indian, 15,625; Other & Unknown, 235,535; Total 2,628,130.


RATE OF COST INCREASE IN AUTO INSURANCE, 1960-75
Mr. Robinson: What is the average rate of cost increase in auto insurance to each province and territory in each year 1960 to 1975 inclusive?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada does not collect data on the average rate of cost increase in auto insurance. However, the attached table shows the year-to-year percentage changes in the automobile insurance component of the consumer price index by regional city from 1962 to 1974. The last column of the table gives the movement over the latest available 12 month period, i.e. June 1974 to June 1975. Consumer price indexes are not compiled at a provincial or territorial level nor are data available for the year 1960.
Year-To-Year Percentage Changes - Automobile Insurance Indexes (1961-100)
City	1962	1963	1964	1965	1966	1967St. John's	9.4	3.8	9.3	0.0	4.8	-7.1Halifax	1.8	- 6.7	2.7	14.1	0.6	5.7Saint John Quebec City 0)	0.3	1.1	0.0	24.7	8.0	4.4Montreal	2.9	-11.1	13.0	21.2	6.0	-2.8Ottawa	3.1	16.6	12.4	12.9	10.8	2.0Toronto Thunder Bay (11	5.4	11.8	13.2	28.6	11.0	4.1Winnipeg	5.6	3.2	7.2	19.1	10.1	4.1Regina	-2.5	- 7.7	0.0	12.6	11.1	4.8Saskatoon	-2.5	- 7.7	0.0	0.0	0.0	4.9Calgary	2.2	3.6	15.1	25.1	7.9	4.1Edmonton	-1.4	4.4	15.1	25.3	7.8	4.1Vancouver	1.3	20.4	3.6	28.9	13.9	-3.3
(1) 1969=100


CMHC FELLOWSHIP PROGRAMME
Mr. Marshall: 1.	Of the 331 applications for CMHC fellowships for study in urban affairs, how many were received from each province?
2.	When was the Fellowship Programme announced and through what means was it advertised?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am advised by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation as follows: 1. The distribution by province of applications received for CMHC Fellowships for study in urban affairs is shown in the table below.
Province	Number
Newfoundland	1
Prince Edward Island	_
Nova Scotia	5
New Brunswick	_
Quebec	87
June 1975
1968	1969	1970	1971	1972	1973	1974	June 19746.1	21.6	12.5	12.7	16.0	9.3	17.8	19.310.1	7.8	2.1	0.1	2.4	7.8	13.8	22.46.3	6.7	1.9	5.8	2.1	9.1	18.7	21.316.8	5.1	6.0	4.3	7.5	12.6- 0.6	2.7	1 1.2	4.2	0.5	4.8	8.1	19.9- 4.8	2.2	8.8	14.1	5.8	13.2	14.1	13.9- 7.9	- 0.5	10.7	14.8	5.2	3.8	12.5	21.3- 0.5	5.5	12.0	15.2	18.1	30.311.5	14.2	8.3	3.8	3.7	0.0	12.1	32.34.7	0.6	0.6	0.0	0.0	0.0	16.6	1.34.6	0.6	0.6	0.0	0.0	0.0	16.5	1.3- 0.6	8.5	14.6	10.0	5.5	3.6	16.7	14.4- 0.6	8.6	14.6	10.0	5.5	3.5	11.8	17.90.9	5.6	3.5	6.2	7.9	5.9	-18.2	3.9Province	Nu m berOntario	157Manitoba	13Saskatchewan	4Alberta	11British Columbia	52N.W.T.	1
2. Approval of the Fellowship Programme was announced by the Minister of State for Urban Affairs on January 14, 1975, through a news release. The fellowship brochure for 1975/76 was distributed by CMHC in December 1974, to a mailing list of over 1200, which covers all Universities and their affiliated colleges in Canada; federal and provincial government departments; private industry such as architectural and engineering firms and associations; and newspaper and magazine outlets. The program is

October 14, 1975

listed in almost all University calendars, and the Annual Register of Grant Support and the Universities and Colleges of Canada report.


PERSONS ASSOCIATED WITH CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Wilbrod Bherer, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.



Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Paul G. Desmarais, Chairman of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.



Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Pierre Genest, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is concerned: Mr. Pierre Genest was appointed to the 7th Council of the Northwest Territories on January 18, 1973 and served until the expiry of the life of that Council on January 22, 1975. As provided by Section 8 of the Northwest Territories Act, his appointment was made by the Governor General in Council, P.C. 1973-133, on the recommendation of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.


MR. J. CLAUDE HEBERT-DIRECTOR OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. J. Claude Hebert, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the govern-
Order Paper Questions
ment (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


PERSONS ASSOCIATED WITH CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Paul E. Martin Jr., Vice-President, Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. EARLE McLAUGHLIN-DIRECTOR OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Earle McLaughlin, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.
Mr. ARTHUR DEANE NESBITT-DIRECTOR OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.


Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Arthur Deane Nesbitt, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. PAUL BRITTON PAINE-DIRECTOR OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Paul Britton Paine, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. JEAN PARISIEN-PRESIDENT OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Jean Parisien, President of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. CLAUDE PRATTE-DIRECTOR OF POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA LTD.
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Claude Pratte, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


PERSONS ASSOCIATED WITH CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Robert Carlton Scrivener, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained b^ appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.



Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has the Honourable John Robarts, Director of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment,

contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.



Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. William Ian MacKenzie Turner Jr., member of the executive committee of Power Corporation of Canada Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.



Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. W. James Hines, Senior Vice-President of Canada Steamship Lines Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. JEAN CHARLES PARADIS-DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF CAMPEAU CORPORATION
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Jean Charles Paradis, Deputy Chairman of Cam-peau Corporation been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. ROSS A. POYNTZ-DIRECTOR OF IMPERIAL LIFE ASSURANCE CO. OF CANADA
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Ross A. Poyntz, Director of Imperial Life Assurance Co. of Canada been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?
October 14, 1975


Mitchell William Sharp: No.
HONOURABLE MAURICE SAUVfi-VICE-PRESIDENT OF CONSOLIDATED-BATHURST LTD.


Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has the Honourable Maurice Sauve, Vice-President of Consolidated-Bathurst Ltd. been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. ARTHUR SIMARD-CHAIRMAN OF MARINE INDUSTRIES
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Arthur Simard, Chairman of Marine Industries been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


PERSONS ASSOCIATED WITH CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Peter Nesbitt Thomson, Chairman of Warnock Hersey International been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.


MR. JEAN SIMARD-DIRECTOR OF WARNOCK HERSEY INTERNATIONAL
Mr. Huntington: Since 1968, has Mr. Jean Simard, Director of Warnock Hersey International been or is he a member, officer, director or in any way whatsoever associated with (a) a Crown corporation (b) the government (c) a department, agency, advisory board, council or committee and, if so (i) what position did he or does he hold (ii) with what corporation, department, agency, advisory board, council or committee (iii) between what dates (iv) was the position attained by appointment, contest, promotion or through a personnel agency (v) if by appointment, by whom or by what authority was he appointed?


Mitchell William Sharp: No.
Order Paper Questions AIR COMMAND MOVE


Mr. McKenzie: 1.	What is the total number of servicemen, officers and NCOs that will be transferred (a) to Winnipeg (b) out of Winnipeg as a result of the Air Command move?
2.	What will be the net gain of servicemen, NCOs and officers in Winnipeg as a direct result of such transfer?
3.	As of June 30, 1975 (a) how many PMQs in the Whytewold-Ness area of Winnipeg were vacant (b) what is this number as a percentage of the total number of quarters?


James Armstrong Richardson: 1. (a) three servicemen, 55 officers and 39 NCO's were transferred to Winnipeg for the start of Air Command. It is anticipated that some additional personnel will be moved to Air Command as the new command becomes established, (b) three servicemen, 14 officers and two NCO's were transferred out of Winnipeg.
2.	The net gain at the start of Air Command is 41 officers and 37 NCO's, a total of 78.
3.	(a) Four, (b) 0.77 per cent.


CAPITAL COST ALLOWANCE PROGRAM
Mr. Marshall: What are the names of the firms in Newfoundland which have applied for loans under the accelerated Capital Cost Allowance Programme?


Mitchell William Sharp: Imperial Oil Enterprises Limited.


USE OF CBC PROGRAMS BY SCHOOLS
Mr. Gauthier (Ottawa-Vanier): 1.	With respect to the new policy of CBC which makes it possible for schools to pick up directly certain of the Corporation's programmes for the possible re-use of several programmes by churches, schools and social clubs (a) has the distribution policy for audio-visual material been drafted by CBC (b) who will distribute the material to approved organizations (c) on what date will the policy take effect?
2.	Of the $1,050,000 allocated in the 1975-76 Estimates, what amount will be used (a) by schools for the recording of CBC programmes considered as useful (b) for the implementation of a programme of re-use of certain television programmes by schools, churches and social clubs?


James Hugh Faulkner: 1 and 2. I
am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that distribution details of a policy providing for specified further use of certain CBC programs are being worked out. It is expected that a statement on the subject will be made shortly.


CANADIAN GOVERNMENT CENTRAL TRAVEL SERVICE
Mr. Huntington: 1.	What is the total sales revenue of the Canadian Government Central Travel Service for its last fiscal year?
2.	What is the sales revenue for each office?
3.	How many persons are employed in each office?
4.	What is the cost of operating the Canadian Government Central Travel Service?

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
5.	What was the profit or loss for each fiscal period in each fiscal year since its inception?


Jean-Pierre Goyer: 1. The total sales value of travel arranged by the Central Travel Service for the fiscal year 1974-75 was $26,406,505. With the inclusion of the DSS service charge, the total revenue for 1974-75 was $26,702,000.
2.	The value of travel arranged by individual offices of the Central Travel Service for fiscal year 1974-75 was as follows: Victoria, $140,225; Vancouver, $1,550,969; Edmonton, $603,380; Calgary, $315,771; Saskatoon, $202,872; Regina, $283,613; Winnipeg, $1,057,833; Windsor, $18,801; London, $35,140; Toronto, $810,506; Hamilton, $37,580; Montreal, $334,166; Quebec, $46,914; Saint John, $130,276; Halifax, $748,160; St-John's, $404,012; Ottawa, $19,686,287; Total $26,406,505.
3.	Central Travel Service employs four public servants, all in Ottawa. The air and rail carriers assign approximately 154 of their personnel, without charge, to handle Central Travel Service reservations and ticketing in Ottawa and seventeen locations across Canada.
4.	The total cost is not known. However, the cost to DSS in fiscal year 1974-75 was $202,000.
5.	The profit for fiscal year 1973-74 was $102,000 and for 1974-75 $94,000. Prior to the commencement of revenue dependency in 1973-74, this service was provided without charge to Government departments and operating costs were charged to a vote appropriation. Profit or loss details for the years preceding 1973-74 are not available.


MR. WILLIAM TERON, PRESIDENT OF CMHC
Mr. Huntington: 1.	Was Mr. William Teron, President of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation (a) a director, chairman, officer or in any way connected with St. Maurice Capital Corporation Ltd., now operating under the style of Commerce Capital Corporation Ltd. (b) a director, chairman, officer or in any way connected with Farmers and Merchants Trust Co. Ltd. (c) a director, chairman, officer or in any way connected with Campeau Corporation?
2.	Did Mr. Teron ever own equity, legal or beneficial shares in Power Corporation of Canada Ltd.?
3.	Has Mr. Teron held any other similar positions in private or public companies or corporations in the past and, if so, on what date did he divest himself of each particular position?
4.	Has Mr. Teron transferred his substantial real estate holdings to any member of his family and, if so, is he in any way acting in an advisory capacity in the management of their properties and holdings?
5.	Are Mr. Teron's extensive real estate holdings held in a blind trust and, if so, do any members of his family or any former business associates act as a trustee or in any way manage the blind trust?


Barnett Jerome Danson: I am advised by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation as follows: 1. (a) and (b) Mr. Teron was chairman of the Board of St. Maurice Capital Corporation Ltd. (now Commerce Capital Corporation Ltd.), and was a Director of Farmers and Merchants Trust Co. Ltd., but on June 30, 1973, prior to his appointment as President of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, he resigned from every office and directorship in those as well as from all other corporations with which he had any connection (save for Pearson College of the Pacific), (c) Mr. Teron was never a Director or Officer of Campeau Corporation

nor in any way connected with it, except that his company's land development at Kanata, Ontario, was sold in 1967 to Canadian Interurban Properties Limited, a controlled subsidiary of Power Corporation with whom Campeau Corporation became subsequently connected.
2.	Mr. Teron held common shares in Power Corporation for a 6-month period only in the year 1970, but never at any other time owned any equity, legal or beneficial, in that company. He owned a controlling interest in Canadian Interurban Properties Limited, but this interest was sold out in December, 1969.
3.	Mr. Teron held offices in Teron Construction Co. Limited, Etron Limited, Marina City Kingston Limited, Murney Development Limited, William Teron Limited and Carleton Towers Hotels Limited, all private companies, but resigned therefrom on June 30, 1973.
4.	Mr. Teron, in 1962, transferred certain shares in his company, Etron Limited, to Trustees acting on behalf of his children, which stock the Trustees continue to hold but, apart from that, never transferred any assets to his wife or children.
5.	Mr. Teron ha no direct real estate holdings (save for his personal residence, a chalet lot, and a one-half interest in a 7-acre parcel of land in March Township, in the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton), but has shares in a corporation, Urbanetics Ltd. (formerly Etron Limited) which has real estate assets. These shares were transferred to Trustees under a blind trust agreement (a true copy of which is filed with the Privy Council Secretariat). These Trustees are in no manner related to Mr. Teron or to any member of his family, and they are not and never have been his business associates.


HUMAN RIGHTS-LEGISLATION
Mr. Herbert: Did the government give recognition to the provincial responsibilities when it excluded in its proposed human rights legislation any reference to discrimination concerning health standards and/or physical deformities which would not be a relevant consideration for employment?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minister of Justice):: It is desired that the proposed Commission at the outset mainly confine its work to grounds of discrimination in relation to which other commissions have acquired experience. Only one province, Nova Scotia, has by a recent amendment to its Human Rights Act provided for the ground of physical handicap.


BANKRUPTCY CLAIMS
Mr. Herbert: Has there been any appreciable change in the percentage of bankruptcy claims between (a) secured and unsecured creditors (b) amounts claimed by banks, financial institutions other than chartered banks, and other creditors?


André Ouellet: Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, (a) Liabilities declared by debtors for the calendar years 1972 and 1973 (as examples) are as follows: 1972, Secured $74,378,000; Unsecured $225,903,000. 1973, Secured
October 14, 1975

Order Paper Questions
76,451,000; Unsecured 228,365,000. (b) Not applicable-Sta-	Hon. Andre Ouellet (Minister of Consumer and Corpotistics are not kept on individual creditors.	rate Affairs): Answer follows.


FEES PAID TO TRUSTEES IN BANKRUPTCIES
Mr. Herbert: For each of the past five years, what is the total of fees that have been paid to trustees in bankruptcies in each province or by whatever regional division that records are maintained?
Note: In the case of an ordinary administration trustee fees are based on section 21(1) and (2) of the Bankruptcy Act. In the case of a summary administration trustee fees are based on section 110, 111 and 112 of the Bankruptcy Rules.
1970	1971	1972	1973	1974	1975Number	Trustee	Number	Trustee	Number	Trustee	Number	Trustee	Number	Trustee	Notof	Tees	of	Fees	of	Fees	of	Fees	of	Fees	Available atEstates	$000	Estates	$000	Estates	$000	Estates	$000	Estates	$000	this timeNI LD.	5	7	3	2	8	11	_	2	1	P.E.l.	5	1	1	-	-	1	-	2	35	N.S.	19	34	20	33	15	25	12	23	20	347	N.B.	31	28	47	65	24	19	30	58	7	30	que.	2,753	2,765	2,415	2,608	2,476	2,970	2,462	3,132	2,081	6,635	ONT.	1,765	1,950	1,970	1,994	2,210	2,167	2,601	2,823	3,406	5,348	MAN.	92	76	103	97	96	97	105	115	92	228	SASK.	92	64	140	80	123	86	93	63	61	102	ALTA.	161	271	205	228	225	372	203	286	127	96	B.C.	332	245	237	341	236	365	365	459	736	1,524	TOTAL.	5,255	5,441	5,141	5,448	5,413	6,112	5.872	6,959	6,534	14,446	BANKRUPTCIES	charity and	in particular the English Pemsel	case wherein
Question No. 3,050-Mr. Herbert:
Does the department responsible for the supervision of bankruptcies record as a percentage of monies claimed the dividends paid to chartered bank creditors whether they are secured or unsecured?


André Ouellet: The Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs does not keep statistics on individual or specific types of creditors in bankruptcies.


CHARITABLE ORGANIZATIONS
Mr. Brisco: 1.	How many charitable organizations are presently registered with the Department of National Revenue?
2.	What criteria are used in granting registration?
the purposes which the law considers to be charitable were grouped under the following four general headings: (1) Relief of Poverty, (2) Advancement of Education, (3) Advancement of Religion, (4) Other purposes of a charitable nature, beneficial to the community, not falling under any of the preceding headings. Legal jurisprudence is used extensively where doubt is encountered.
3. The names of the charitable organizations which had their registration revoked were published, as required by law, in the Canada Gazette. The following is the publication date and the number revoked: 1973: 31/03/73, 39; 2/06/ 73, 54; 18/08/73, 58; 24/11/73, 358; 15/12/73, 90; 29/12/73, 272; total for 1973 871. 1974; 26/01/74, 1; 18/05/74, 86; 10/08/74, 1; 17/08/74, 129; 30/11/74, 372; 24/12/74, 135; 28/12/74, 206; total for 1974 930. 1975: 22/03/75, 81; 3/05/75, 2; 10/05/75, 98; total for 1975, 181. Overall total 1,982.
3.	How many organizations registered as charitable organizations, have subsequently had their certificate withdrawn by the Department of National Revenue in 1973, 1974 and 1975 to date and what were their names?
4.	What form of investigation is conducted by the Department prior to awarding certification to an organization as a charitable organization?


Hon. J. C. Cullen (Minister of National Revenue):: 1.
36,098.
2. An organization must demonstrate by documentation and other information that it is constituted and operating exclusively in a charitable manner. The Income Tax Act does not contain a definition of the word "charity" or "charitable purposes" and the Department must therefore be guided by the principles of common law dealing with
4.	Organizations are required to file with the Department a certified copy of their governing documents, a copy of the previous years financial statements, if such exist, and a detailed explanation of the activities to be carried on by the organization within the meaning of the stated objects. This documentation and information is reviewed and analyzed and if it is found that the organization meets all of the requirements it is registered as a charitable organization for income tax purposes. Submissions are presently being sought from interested Canadians by a Charities Study Group established by the Minister of Finance in his recent budget speech. At that time a Green Paper on the subject was published. As a result, legislation may be presented which would establish additional requirements

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
for registration, vary existing requirements for registration or impose new administrative policies.


SOCIETY FOR THE STUDY OF THE HERITAGE OF CANADA
Mr. Brisco: 1.	Was a certificate issued to the Society for the Study of the Heritage of Canada by the Department of National Revenue-Taxation as a Canadian charitable organization and, if so, for what reason?
2.	What was the (a) effective date (b) certificate number?
3.	How many tax free dollars were received in the form of donations by the Society in (a) 1973 (b) 1974 (c) 1975?
4.	How many Canadians donated to the Society in (a) 1973 (b) 1974 (c) 1975?
5.	Has the Department of National Revenue ever investigated the Society and (a) if so (i) for what reason (ii) what were the findings of the investigation (b) if not, for what reason?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. The Society for the Study of the Heritage of Canada was registered as a Canadian charitable organization under the Income Tax Act, having demonstrated to the satisfaction of the responsible officials that it met all of the prerequisites to registration.
2.	(a) July 1, 1973, (b) 0417774-21-13
3.	An answer to this question cannot be provided due to the secrecy provisions of the Income Tax Act.
4.	This information is not available.
5.	See answer to Part 3.


EMIGRATION FROM CANADA STATISTICS
Miss MacDonald (Kingston and the Islands): 1.	Does the government collect information on emigration from Canada?
2.	What factors (age, sex, nationality, occupation, etc.) are collected in emigration statistics?
3.	Are such data collected by cooperation with the countries of destination and, if not, how are they collected?
4.	Where are these emigration statistics published?
5.	Does the government intend to increase the collection of emigration data and, if so, in what areas?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada reports the following: 1. Like most countries in the world, Canada does not collect data on the number of persons emigrating from the country, because Canadian residents are not compelled to notify provincial or national officials of their departure. However, Statistics Canada produces estimates of the number of persons who emigrate from Canada each year.
2.	The annual estimates of emigration are produced by age group, sex, and province or territory of origin.
3.	The emigration estimates are obtained by adding: (a) actual data from the United States Department of Justice on the number of persons immigrating to the United States whose last country of residence was Canada: (b) actual data from the United Kingdom Office of Population Censuses and Surveys on the number of persons migrating to the United Kingdom wrhose last country of residence was Canada; and (c) an assumed volume of 20,000 persons who are believed to emigrate to all other countries from Canada

each year. The figure 20,000, is based on data in the United Nations Demographic Year Book and differences between the number of post-war immigrants recorded in the 1961 Census and the total post-war immigration figures reported by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
4.	These emigration estimates are compiled for purposes of producing the official post-censal national and provincial population estimates. Although the emigration estimates have not been published, they are made available to individuals who request them.
5.	For the past two years, Canada has been cooperating with the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe in a pilot project the aim of which is to generate current, reliable data on the number of persons migrating between the 32 member countries of the Economic Commission for Europe. Although the results from this pilot project have been encouraging the Economic Commission for Europe is continuing its developmental work on this project before setting up a system for the regular exchange of these data among the member countries. Once this programme becomes fully operational, the data on immigration to these countries from Canada will enable Statistics Canada to generate increasingly accurate and more detailed current emigration estimates.


ENERGY ANALYSES
Miss MacDonald (Kingston and the Islands): 1.	Has the government conducted any energy analyses or obtained energy analyses done by others comparing energy invested with energy produced for (a) the Syncrude plant (b) the CANDU reactor systems for Bruce, Point Lepreau and Pickering (c) any of the major international competitors of the CANDU system and, if so, where are they published?
2.	Has the government conducted or received any studies comparing the energy invested including both construction and operation with the energy delivered for (a) an oil pipeline versus a railroad (b) a gas pipeline versus a railroad in the MacKenzie Valley?


Mitchell William Sharp: The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources reports as follows: 1. These studies are underway.
2. These studies are underway.


UNION REPRESENTATION
Mr. Jelinek: 1.	How many various unions are represented within (a) post office (b) air transportation (c) grain handlers (d) ports (e) meat inspectors (f) rail service?
2.	How many of the unions in Part 1 have taken part in a walkout or strike during (a) the last fiscal year (b) the past two fiscal years?
3.	How many man-days have been lost as a result of strikes and walkouts by the unions in Part 1 during (a) the last fiscal year (b) the past two fiscal years?
4.	How many man-days have been lost as a result of strikes and walkouts by employees under the jurisdiction of the government during (a) the last fiscal year (b) the past two fiscal years?


John Carr Munro: 1. (a) Post Office-5, (b) air transport-15, (c) grain handlers-16, (d) ports-35*, (e) meat inspectors-1, (f) rail service-21.
October 14, 1975

* This number includes unions in "marine transportation" as well as "ports."
2. and 3.
(a)	Post Office
(b)	air transport
(c)	grain handlers
(d)	ports
(e)	meat inspectors (0 rail service
Fiscal year 1974-75
No. of unions	May-days
Striking	Lost
2	177,050
3	9,000
2	26,400
3	60,000
1	*
4	31,330
Fiscal year 1973-74 * 1 2 3 4
No. of unions	May-days
Striking	Lost
2	650
2	98,570
2	20,900
3**	797,870
'Meat inspectors are included in the Primary Products Inspection Group of the Public Service Alliance of Canada which engaged in sporadic stoppages from November 23 to December 5, 1974, but separate statistics for meat inspectors are not available.
"Includes a strike by railway non-operating employees who belong to eight separate unions but negotiate jointly.
4.
Federal jurisdiction industries
Federal Public Service
Fiscal 1974-75 Man-days lost
246,810
261,180
Fiscal 1973-74 May-days lost
1,046,680
1,490


FOREIGN CLAIMS COMMISSION-NUMBER OF PUBLIC SERVANTS EMPLOYED
Mr. Roberts: 1.	How many public servants are currently employed by the Foreign Claims Commission?
2.	What is their average length of service with the Commission?
3.	What are the names of any members of the Commission while serving with the Commission visited (a) Bulgaria (b) Hungary (c) Romania (d) Poland (e) Czechoslovakia and on what dates?
4.	Which of the visits were partially or wholly other than on government business?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. The commission comprises three members appointed by the Governor-in-Council under the Inquiries Act. The commissioners have authority to employ necessary staff at rates of remuneration approved by Treasury Board. The persons presently so employed are one lawyer, one person with legal training, and two secretaries. In addition, one lawyer has been seconded to the commission by the Department of Justice.
2. Two members of the commission were appointed on December 8, 1970 and the third was appointed on January 30, 1975. Tue secretaries were engaged on February 1, 1971 and September 1, 1973, respectively. The lawyer was engaged on September 1, 1973. The person with legal training was engaged on June 1, 1975. The lawer seconded from
Order Paper Questions
the Department of Justice has been with the commission since October, 1974.
3.	No member or employee of the commission while serving with the commission has visited Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Poland or Czechoslovakia.
4.	(actually 4) Not applicable.


&quot;CANADIAN REVIEW&quot; AUGUST, 1975 EDITION
Mr. Beatty: 1.	With respect to the August 1975 edition of the Canadian Review, which features an article about the Secretary of State entitled: "Super-hugh" and a cover article entitled: "Senator Keith Davey: The brains behind the Liberals' 1974 Victory", how many advertisements were placed by the government in that issue of the magazine?
2.	What is the total cost to the taxpayer of such advertisements?
3.	How many advertisements were placed by (a) the Pepartment of the Secretary of State (b) other government organizations for which the Secretary of State is responsible to Parliament and what was the cost to the taxpayer?
4.	Since the Secretary of State received his present portfolio, what is the total amount of government advertising and assistance which has been given to the Canadian Review?


James Hugh Faulkner: 1. and
2. National Library-One-$342. National Museums of Canada-Two-$450.
3.	(a) None, (b) See reply to parts 1 and 2.
4.	National Library, $342; Public Service Commission, $275; National Museums of Canada, $450.


&quot;SWEET MOVIE&quot; FILM
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	With reference to the answer to Question No. 2,786 on the subject of the film "Sweet Movie" which stated in part that this film "contains some such scenes" of vomiting, urination and defecation (a) in how many scenes did each appear (b) who set down the policy and on what date that the amount of public money invested in individual films of this kind by the Canadian Film Development Corporation is never disclosed and what reasons justify denying such information to Parliament?
2.	With further reference to the answer which stated in part that CFDC invested in this film because of "Canadian content", "reputation of the director" and "script" (a) what are all these things in detail (b) did the film portray one fat man wiping defecations on another fat man and, if so, has this anything to do with Canadian content or the reputation of the director?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the Canadian Film Development Corporation as follows: 1. (a) Vomiting, 2 scenes; Urination, 4 scenes; Defecation, 1 scene, (b) At their meetings of October 31, 1968 and January 28, 1969, the members of the Canadian Film Development Corporation decided not to reveal the amounts of their investments in individual feature films in order to protect the financial position of the producer in his negotiations with possible purchasers of the completed films.
2. (a) Canadian Content: Carole Laure, a French-Canadian actress had a feature role, Martin Malina, a Montreal critic collaborated on the scenario and there were several other Canadian performers and technicians during the week of shooting in Canada. Reputation of the Director: Dusan Makavejev, the director, has an international

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
reputation. His films include "WR: Mysteries of the Organism", "Man is Not a Bird", "Loves of the Switchboard Operator" and "Sweet Movie". In 1973 he was chosen one of the five Directors of the Year, the others being Ingmar Bergman, Robert Bresson, Alain Resnais and John Schle-singer. In the International Film Guide, he was rated as one of the three new major directors to come from Eastern Europe in the past ten years. He was also highly praised by James Roy Macbean in The Film Quarterly. Robin Wood in Second Wind, said that Makavejev is one of the most remarkable artists to have emerged from the post-Godard generation. The Script: The corporation's assessment and that of its readers were generally satisfactory, (b) All the scenes referred to in 1 (a) above were added and photographed in Holland. They have nothing to do with Canadian content. The director made the decision to include them in the film.


ABORTIONS
Mr. Robinson: How many legal abortions have been performed in Canada at the expense of the taxpayer in each year 1968 to 1975 inclusive?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada reports that the number of therapeutic abortion operations performed in Canada on residents of Canada and reported to Statistics Canada is as follows: August 26 to December 31, 1969, 538; January 1 to December 31, 1970, 11,152; January 1 to December 31, 1971, 30,923; January 1 to December 31, 1972, 38,853; January 1 to
December 31, 1973, 43,201. From the time at which a province declared a therapeutic abortion operation to be a required medical service, and abortion operations became an item of shared medical services under the combined Federal and Provincial Hospital Insurance and Medical Care Act, a covered resident of the province making a claim for payment of services provided in connection with a therapeutic abortion operation would have all or most of the services provided without charge.


ILLEGAL ABORTIONS
Mr. Robinson: 1.	How many doctors have been charged and/or convicted of performing illegal abortions in each year 1968 to 1975 inclusive?
2.	What are their names and what was the sentence they received?


Mitchell William Sharp: Statistics Canada does have information on the number of persons charged and convicted of performing illegal abortions. However, no data are collected on the occupation of the person charged. 1. and 2(b). The table below gives the number of persons charged, persons convicted and sentences of convicted persons. The figures refer to the year 1968-1972 for the offence grouping, "abortion and attempt" which includes Criminal Code sections 237, 237(1) 237(2), 238 for the years 1968-1970 inclusive and sections 251, 251(1), 251(2), 252 for the years 1971 and 1972. (The different Criminal Code sections result from the renumbering of the code in 1970).
2(a). The release by Statistics Canada of the names of persons charged or convicted is prohibited by Section 16 of the Statistics Act.
Offence-Abortion and Attempt (1968-1972)
Persons charged and convicted and sentences of convicted persons
Persons Charged	Persons Convicted	Suspended Sentence Without Probation	Suspended Sentence With Probation	Fine	Institution119682	20	14	4	4	_	619693	1 1	9	2	3	~	4 Goal Reformatory Penitentiary1970-*	13	10	2	6 219713	6	6	2	i	- 31972	2	2	-	_	i	1
note:
1	includes goals, reformatories, industrial farms, training schools and penitentiaries.
2	excludes Quebec.
3	excludes Quebec and Alberta.


VACCINE TO PREVENT TOOTH DECAY IN MONKEYS
Mr. Robinson: 1.	To the knowledge of the government, have British scientists developed a vaccine to prevent tooth decay in monkeys and believe it is only

a matter of time before humans will be effectively inoculated and, if so, is the government looking into this research in the interest of Canadians?
2.	Is there any similar experimentation being carried on in Canada?


Marc Lalonde: 1. A report by British scientists in the July 15, 1975, issue of the "British Dental Journal", describes experiments with vaccines to prevent tooth decay in monkeys. The government is aware of the results of this research and will be kept abreast of the additional animal experiments now in progress.
2. No.
October 14, 1975


DISTRIBUTION OF BOOKLET &quot;HULL 1800-1975&quot;
Mr. Halliday: 1.	What was the total financial contribution of the National Capital Commission and/or the Ministry of State for Urban Affairs towards the
(a)	development (b) printing (c) distribution of the booklet Hull 1800-1975?
2.	Is it the policy of the Minister of State for Urban Affairs to provide funds to similarly commemorate centennial years or other commemorative occasions of municipalities and, if not, for what reason were these public funds provided on behalf of Hull?


Mitchell William Sharp: I am informed by the National Capital Commission and the Ministry of State for Urban Affairs as follows: 1. (a) nil.
(b)	nil. (c) nil.
2. In the case of the 175th anniversary of foundation and centennial of incorporation of Hull, the National Capital Commission contribution of $5,000 for the Illustrated History was (i) to purchase 1,000 copies for NCC. use (ii) to assist with translation costs. The contribution assured bilingual production of the book which was seen as a valuable addition to the history of the National Capital Region and of interest to both residents and visitors.


AIR CANADA'S FUEL SUPPLIERS
Mr. MacKay: 1.	Which oil companies supply Air Canada's fuel and other petroleum requirements in each province?
2.	Are such contracts the subject of competitive bidding?
3.	Does any supplier have the exclusive right or franchise to supply Air Canada's requirements in any particular area of the country and, if so, what (a) is the name of the supplier (b) area or areas are involved?


Mitchell William Sharp: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: 1. British Columbia: -Shell Canada Limited; Imperial Oil Limited; Alberta: Gulf Oil Canada Limited; Saskatchewan: Imperial Oil Limited; Manitoba: Imperial Oil Limited; Ontario: Shell Canada Limited; Imperial Oil Limited; Gulf Oil Canada Limited; Texaco Canada Limited; Quebec: Shell Canada Limited; Gulf Oil Canada Limited; Petrofina Canada Limited. In addition, Air Canada has numerous local contracts for the supply of motor gasoline and heating oil. This involves several other major as well as smaller regional suppliers such as Murphy Oil Quebec Limited and Canadian Import-Weaver Fuels. Air Canada also purchases other petroleum-derived products from petro-chemical firms such as Union Carbide Canada Limited and Dow Chemicals of Canada Limited and lubricant specialists such as Burmah-Castrol Canada Limited.
2.	Yes.
3.	In certain provinces of Canada, individual suppliers have been granted a contractual right to supply Air Canada's requirements for a limited period of time, following a request for tenders and the submission of bids. (A and B) See Above.


MESSRS. HORNER AND DORE
Mr. Cossitt: With reference to the answer to Question No. 2,365 which stated in part that the Prime Minister was accompanied on his Caribbean trip and to the Commonwealth Conference in Jamaica by security guards
Order Paper Questions
W. Horner and P. Dore in addition to two RCMP inspectors, are Messrs. Horner and Dore government employees, and (a) if so, with what department are they employed and what is their annual salary (b) if not, what is the name and address of the security service for which they work (i) what is the nature and detail of the contract it has with the government (ii) what is a description of all services that it provides to the government (iii) what is the annual cost to the government for services rendered by this security service?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes. (a) Messrs. W. Horner and P. Dore are security guards employed by the Department of External Affairs. They are paid at a basic hourly rate of $4.87 and $4.53 respectively. These two security guards accompanied the delegation to provide protection for classified papers, (b) Not applicable.


EXPANSION OF ST. LAWRENCE ISLANDS NATIONAL PARK
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	With reference to the announcement made by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in an address to the annual meeting of the National and Provincial Parks Association of Canada on May 24, 1975 that Parks Canada would spend $30,000,000 on expansion of the St. Lawrence Islands National Park (a) what are the detailed improvements and expansion planned for the mainland section at Mallorytown Landing and on what date will they begin (b) approximately how many additional islands does the government plan to acquire (c) what islands presently owned by the government will undergo improvement and, in each case, what will be the improvements?
2.	Is the government aware of the fact that only a very general announcement has been made on these matters forcing the asking price of properties in the Thousand Islands area to extremely high levels and, if so, will the government clarify its plans quickly so that property values will settle to a more realistic level?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. a) Detailed expansion plans have not been developed for the Mainland section at Mallorytown Landing. Any improvements will be indicated in a preliminary master plan for the total park area. The preliminary plan will be presented to the public for their views and recommendations after which time the formal master plan will be developed, b) The precise number of islands to be acquired will be identified after further studies by Parks Canada, discussions with the Province and public consultation, c) The nineteen named islands in St. Lawrence Islands National Park vary in character and the capability to respond to recreational demands placed upon them. Studies of these capabilities are being undertaken and will be used as a guide in public discussions on the preliminary master plan.
2. An extensive public information programme will be undertaken to acquaint the public with the proposal for the expansion following Treasury Board approval and discussions with the province. We have no evidence that the general comments have had any effect on the asking price of the properties in the Thousand Islands area.


CENTRALIZING DATA BANKS
Mr. Beatty: Is the government considering any plans that would in any way centralize data banks now under the control of more than one department or agency and, if so, what are they?

Order Paper Questions


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: As
reported in the reply to question 2,641, the Treasury Board secretariat is presently developing a centralized personnel management information data bank of employee data that will provide information to central agencies and departments as is necessary to support personnel administration in the Public Service in the areas of collective bargaining, compensation aspects, manpower planning and analysis, pensions, insurance and official languages. Treasury Board secretariat is also preparing a master plan for statistical activities that could eventually affect, in conjunction with recently proposed privacy legislation, the identification or creation of banks of data for inter-departmental use. The Public Service will review its plans for centralized data banks as well as the supporting policies and guidelines to ensure that Part V of Bill C-72 introduced into the House on July 21, 75 will be respected.


CANADIAN POLICE INFORMATION CENTRE
Mr. Beatty: In regard to the Canadian Police Information Centre, what regulations or agreements exist with respect to the (a) protection of an individual's privacy (b) type of information that may be entered into CPIC's data bank (c) categories of individuals and organizations to whom information contained in CPIC's data bank may be given?


William Warren Allmand: (a) Personnel authorized to operate CPIC terminal devices must have a security clearance equivalent to the Federal Government "SECRET" level. Terminal operation is restricted to authorized personnel. The audit team, in addition to auditing validation of records, examine personnel and site security to ensure that minimum standards are being maintained. Computer interfaces with CPIC will be restricted to systems approved by the CPIC Advisory Committee, (b) Vehicle File, Persons File, Property File, Criminal Records Synopsis, (c) RCMP, Provincial Police, City Police, Municipal Forces approved by the CPIC Advisory Committtee. The need for further dissemination is at the discretion of the Solicitor General of Canada, or the Minister of Justice, Attorney General or Solicitor General of the province or territory concerned.


STUDY OF LOBBYING
Mr. Beatty: 1.	With respect to the answer to Question No. 2,967 in which the government stated that it has not considered the registration of lobbyists and that no studies of the subject have been done, what is the study of lobbying by the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs that was referred to on page 25 of the July 1969, issue of Canadian Business?
2.	Has the government introduced any laws or regulations to govern the relationship between lobbyists and government officials as reported in Part 2 of the answer to Question No. 2,967 and, if not, for what reason?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. This was a preliminary study carried out by an outside consultant, which did not lead to more extensive examination of this matter by the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
2. The government has not introduced laws or regulations to govern the relationship between lobbyists and

government officials because the need for such control measures has not been determined.


LAWYERS AND LAW FIRMS IN CONSTITUENCY OF VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. McKinnon: 1.	What were the names and addresses of all lawyers and law firms in the Constituency of Victoria, British Columbia who performed services for the government during 1973 and 1974?
2.	By year, what was the total amount of money paid to each?


Mitchell William Sharp: In so far as agents of the Minister of Justice are concerned: See list below.
Branson, C.O.D.
Victoria, British Columbia Cox, Kenneth B.
Victoria, British Columbia Hutchison, J. M.
Victoria, British Columbia Hutchison, R. B.
Victoria, British Columbia Pearbnan and Lindholm Victoria, British Columbia Stewart, Ian H.
Victoria, British Columbia Sullivan, Smith and Bigelow Victoria, British Columbia Taylor, Rodney Victoria, British Columbia
1973	1974
$41,093.93 $	473.80
$ 5,295.47 $ 6,777.75 $	128.50	$ 1,090.00
$ 1,167.01 $	728.09
* $ 9,783.96 $ 1,862.47	*
$ 1,645.70 $59,745.04 $17,630.25	$ 1,915.50
* Work assigned during the period in question but no accounts received during this period.


HIGH RISK NUTRITIONAL DEFICIENCIES
Mr. Marshall: 1.	What action has the government taken with regard to persons involved in the Nutrition Canada study who were discovered to have high risk nutritional deficiencies?
2.	Have any contacts been made with the particular person?
3.	Have any contacts been made with the provincial departments of health to discuss corrective measures as to the provincial departments of welfare services?
4.	Is it the intention of the Minister of National Health and Welfare to request additional funding in order to initiate corrective programmes?


Marc Lalonde: 1. In response to the findings of the Nutrition Canada Survey, the government has proposed extensive food enrichment programs to maintain and improve the nutritional quality of the Canadian food supply. These include: (a) proposed amendments to the Food and Drug Regulations to make mandatory the addition of Vitamin D to all forms of milk, vitamin A to skim and partially skimmed milks and margarine, vitamin C to evaporated
October 14, 1975

milks, fruit drinks and non-citrus fruit juices, and three B-vitamins and iron to flour, (b) proposals to require that the iron used to enrich flour and other foods be in a form which can be readily assimilated by the body. In addition, discussions are underway with the food industry to extend flour enrichment to include other nutrients lost in processing, including folic acid, and to make mandatory the addition of calcium to all flour sold in Canada. The impact of these proposed measures should be a substantial improvement in the health of Canadians with respect to the nutrient deficiencies identified by the Nutrition Canada Survey.
2.	Yes. The participant and his or her family doctor were advised by letter whenever the biochemical tests indicated a need for further medical investigation. When people with medical problems were encountered during the clinical examination in the survey, they were referred to their local public health unit for treatment.
3.	A Federal-Provincial Nutrition Committee composed of representatives of the Department of National Health and Welfare and of the governments of the 10 provinces has been formed. This committee has discussed the results of the Nutrition Canada Survey and has made recommendations to the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health concerning the need for remedial programs in nutrition.
4.	A decision on whether additional funding will be required for corrective programs has not yet been made.


GOVERNORS GENERAL ARMIGEROUS
Mr. Kaplan: Are any descendants of former Governors General armigerous as a result of service in such office?


Mitchell William Sharp: See Beauchesne's Citation 171 (dd).


REPORT ON BILINGUAL DISTRICTS
Mr. Gauthier (Ottawa-Vanier): With reference to the question relating to the report of the advisory committee on bilingual districts at page 5508 of Hansard for May 6,1975, will the government confirm that the French and English versions of the report were sent to the printer in June and, if so, on what date will the report be published?


James Hugh Faulkner: Yes. It is anticipated that the report of the Bilingual Districts Advisory Board will be tabled around the end of October.


QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, if questions No. 710, 1,215, 1,455, 1,562, 1,742, 1,878, 2,207, 2,240, 2,289, 2,293, 2,401, 2,438, 2,496, 2,536, 2,634, 2,664, 2,670, 2,696. 2,761, 2,845, 2,882, 2,917, 2,928, 2,945, 2,970, 2,971, 3,006, 3,007, 3,045, 3,060, 3,062 and 3,082 could be made orders for return, these returns would be tabled immediately. I have a box in front of me containing these orders for returns which will be taken to the table forthwith.
Order Paper Questions


Gerald William Baldwin: But will those questions be printed in Hansard?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, on a point or order, I hope the House will be assured that all these 400-odd questions will be printed in Hansard in the usual course today, and not merely tabled. Second, I ask there to be justification given for the extraordinary number of questions the government seeks to introduce as orders for returns. Frankly, when a question is made an order for return it is almost tantamount to burying it. I think this practice should be deprecated and indulged in only in exceptional circumstances, when the reasons for it are given.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I had hoped that greater appreciation might be shown for the government's diligence during the three-month holiday, to which the hon. member earlier referred, in the answering of these questions. I assure the hon. gentleman that the answers to the list of questions I tabled will appear in Hansard as usual. Only the orders for returns will be treated in the way he suggested. I also assure him that they are only being made orders for return because of their bulk, which the hon. member can see from the box of material which was tabled.


Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Mr. Speaker, I think I should have raised a question of privilege. Perhaps I would then have been heard earlier. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to waste the time of the House, but the interpreter on the French side, who is responsible for translating in French the remarks of the English-speaking members in this House, including those of the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Sharp), was complaining about not being able to interpret him because the member was speaking too fast.
As we are much interested in understanding what the President of the Privy Council says, I think we are justified in asking that he read a little more slowly, although we will have the opportunity to read Hansard tomorrow.
If we could hear them today, we would save time. We would not be obliged to read his statement tomorrow for we would take advantage of the opportunity to hear it in a more comprehensible way. That is why I rise on a point of order. I ask that we go a little more slowly to allow the interpreter to transmit the message and to make the interpretation in a more comprehensible manner.


Mr. Speaker:: Here is the list. May we give it to the hon. member right away?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I ask to questions No. 2,358, 2,473, 2,641, 2,687, 2,811 and 2,969 be made orders for returns. I also ask the consent of the House to table immediately the information which has already been submitted. The balance of the information will follow as soon as it is submitted to me.

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions


Mr. Speaker:: Does the House agree? Shall the questions enumerated by the President of the Privy Council be made orders for returns under these conditions? Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



Mr. Stevens: 1.	In each fiscal year ending March 31, 1972, 1973 and 1974, and for the six month period ending September 30, 1974, what was the aggregate expenditure by the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources for travel abroad by (a) the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources and his immediate staff (b) departmental staff (c) the staff of boards, commissions, tribunals, Crown corporations or other similar agencies reporting to the Minister (d) others whose expenses were paid in part or in whole directly or indirectly by the government?
2.	In the case of an expenditure in excess of $200 (a) what was the purpose of the foreign trip (b) what was the furthest destination (c) what is the name of the person(s) who took the trip (d) how long was the person(s) outside the country (e) what was the nature of the expenditure (f) how many others were in the party making the trip?
Return tabled.


Question No. 1,215-Mr. Benjamin:
In each fiscal year 1971-72 to 1974-75 to date, did the government, or any branch, Crown corporation or agency (including the Canadian Wheat Board, Canadian Grain Commission, Canada Grains Council or any committee or group thereof) pay over to or give approval for the payment of money for any purpose whatsoever to (a) the Palliser Wheat (grain) Growers Association (b) any firm or individual(s) acting as consultant to or on behalf of the Palliser Wheat Growers Association or any individual, groups or committee acting for, on behalf of or representing the Association (c) any individual, organization or company carrying out research and/or feasibility studies regarding inland grain terminals (d) Ron Bryden, Patrick Foody or Pechtrol Ltd. and, if so (i) how much money and to whom (ii) on what date was it paid or authorized to be paid (iii) for what purpose?
Return tabled.


MEDICAL RESEARCH-GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE
Mr. Jones: How much money has been spent by the government on (a) cancer research (b) heart disease research (c) medical research and what are the details of each such expenditure?
Return tabled.


GOVERNMENT FINANCED HOUSING STUDIES
Mr. McKenzie: 1.	How many government-financed housing studies have been conducted since July 1, 1968?
2.	What were (a) the names (b) the individual costs (c) the purposes of terms of reference for each?
3.	How many housing surveys have been conducted by Statistics Canada or any other government organizations since July 1, 1968 and what was the cost of each?

Return tabled.


PUBLIC WORKS-AMOUNT OF CONTRACTS TO CORPORATIONS AND COMPANIES
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): From 1969-70 to the present, what was the complete amount of contracts given by the Department of Public Works to corporations and companies which receive a single contract of at least $250,000?
Return tabled.


GRAIN-ELEVATOR CAPACITY AT CN DELIVERY POINTS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	For each CN delivery point (a) Gibbons (b) Coronado (c) Redwa-ter (d) Kerensky (e) Radway (f) Waskatenau (g) Warspite (h) Smoky Lake (i) Edwand (j) Beilis (k) Vilna (1) Spedden (m) Ashmont (n) Mallaig (o) Therien (p) Glendon (q) Franchere (r) Bonnyville (s) Fort Kent (t) Beaver River (u) Grand Centre (v) Abilene (w) Owlseye (x) St. Paul (y) Elk Point (z) Lindbergh (aa) Heinsberg how many (i) elevators (ii) elevator operators are there?
2.	What is the total elevator capacity at each point?
3.	For each year 1970 to 1974 and for each delivery point, how many (a) bushels of wheat, barley, oats, rapeseed, flaxseed including durum, were shipped (b) carloads does this represent?
4.	For the same years and delivery point, how many (a) tons of freight by classification, excluding grain, were shipped in and out (b) carloads does this represent?
5. For the same years and delivery point, what was the (a) total revenue (b) average revenue per ton mile (c) average per ton mile revenue, excluding tons shipped under statutory rates?
Return tabled.


COST OF OPERATING INFORMATION SERVICES
Mr. Marshall: What is the cost of operation of each of the information services as listed in the answer to Question No. 2,082?
Return tabled.


COST OF STAMP DESIGNS SINCE 1968
Mr. Reynolds: 1.	Since 1968 (a) how much money has been paid for special stamp designs (b) how many different designs have there been?
2.	What are the names and addresses of designers and how much are they paid for each design?
3.	Is any competition held?
Return tabled.


SOLAR ENERGY
Mr. Jones: 1.	What consultants have been retained to study the use of solar energy for various purposes?
2.	What are the (a) terms of each contract (b) amount of each contract?
3.	(a) What other steps are being taken to study solar energy (b) by whom (c) under what conditions (d) at what cost?
4.	Will reports on such studies be made available and, if so, on what date?
October 14, 1975

5.	What consideration has been given to (a) heating (b) heating water for government buildings and buildings of government agencies by way of simple solar collector systems at less cost?
6.	How long would it take to obtain simple solar collector systems for the heating and/or heating of water for Parliament buildings?
7.	(a) What financial assistance is available to encourage private enterprise for research and study in solar energy (b) has such assistance been made available and, if so (i) to whom (ii) at what cost?
8.	What financial assistance and/or grants would the government make available to individuals and firms for installation of solar energy systems for the heating of homes and structures and for the heating of water for residential, commercial and industrial purposes?
9.	What consideration has been given to restricting, regulating and/or prohibiting under certain circumstances, the installation and/or use of air conditioning and other similar luxurious uses of energy until alternate sources of energy are available and/or the energy crisis is solved?
Return tabled.


ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES-COST OF ADVERTISEMENT RELATING TO TURNING OFF LIGHTS
Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): 1.	What was the cost, by province, of inserting the full-page advertisement in newspapers on March 15 by the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, and designed to bring to the attention of readers, the $900 per week saved by the Department in turning off the lights in its building at 580 Booth Street, Ottawa?
2.	In what newspapers was the advertisement inserted?
3.	Has the Department succeeded in persuading the Department of External Affairs and the Department of National Defence to turn its lights off each night and, if so, at what weekly saving?
4.	Are all departmental buildings in Ottawa and across the country effecting similar savings?
Return tabled.


PUBLICITY CONTRACTS FOR QUEBEC TERRITORY
Mr. Beaudoin: To what agency does the government grant all publicity contracts for the Quebec territory?
Return tabled.


FEDERAL PRISONS-BEHAVIOURAL MODIFICATION PROJECTS
Mr. Beatty: 1.	Is it government policy to allow behavioural modification projects to be conducted in the federal prison system and, if so, in each case (a) what is the purpose of the project (b) who are the persons responsible for its completion (c) how many subjects are involved (d) what is the nature of the treatment?
2.	What departments, agencies, boards, commissions or Crown corporations, if any, are directly or indirectly involved in behavioural modification programmes and, in each case (a) what is the nature of the government's involvement (b) what is the purpose of the project (c) how many subjects are involved (d) who is the person responsible for the government's participation (e) who is the person in charge of the programme (f) what is the nature of the treatment?
Order Paper Questions
Return tabled.


ARREARS OF PAYMENT OF SPECIAL UNITED NATIONS ASSESSMENT FOR MAINTENANCE OF UN EMERGENCY FORCE
Mr. Stanbury: As of April 30, 1975 (a) what amount was owing by each country in arrears of payment of the special United Nations assessment for maintenance of the UN Emergency Force and the UN Disengagement Observer Force in the Middle East (b) how much has Canada received on account of its contributions to these forces (c) what amount is owing to Canada on this account?
Return tabled.


DETAILS OF ADVERTISING CONTRACTS
Mr. Cossitt: Since July 8, 1974, what are all the details of advertising contracts over $1,000 for newspapers, magazines, radio and television awarded by the government and, in each case (a) the amount of the contract (b) the name of the advertising agency and agency commission or fee (c) the advertising subject-matter (d) whether or not competitive bids or presentations were called for (e) the name and job designation of the government authority authorizing the contract?
Return tabled.


ESTIMATES FOR FISCAL YEAR ENDING MARCH 31, 1976
Mr. Herbert: By how much, by department, were the forecast expenditures 1974-75 as shown in the Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1976, less than the total of the Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, plus the Supplementary Estimates (A), (B), (C) and (D) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION OUTREACH PROGRAMME
Mr. Gauthier (Ottawa-Vanier): 1.	With respect to the Department of Manpower and Immigration's Outreach programme, what was, by project and region, the (a) number
(b)	location (c) name (d) staff (e) estimate for 1974-75?
2.	What was the budgetary increase allowed for each project for the
1975-76 fiscal year?
3.	Are some projects terminated and, if so (a) how many (b) for what reason?
4.	What are the evaluation criteria of (a) projects (b) the programme in general?
5.	What steps will be taken to extend or give permanence to projects that have achieved or exceeded the objectives of the Department as set forth in a press release on October 10, 1974?
Return tabled.


MOVEMENT OF GRAIN IN CANADA
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	What (a) are the names (b) is a brief definition of the job specifications of each union directly or indirectly involved in the movement of grain in Canada?

Order Paper Questions
2.	What (a) are the names (b) is a brief definition of the job specifications of each company directly or indirectly involved in the movement of grain in Canada?
Return tabled.


GOVERNMENT AUTOMATED OPERATIONAL INFORMATION SERVICES
Mr. Beatty: For each department, agency, board, commission and Crown corporation maintaining an automated operational information system, what is (a) the name of the system (b) the nature and purpose of the system
(c)	the category and number of persons on whom data is (to be) maintained (d) the category of data (to be) maintained, indicating which category is (to be) stored in computer-accessible files (e) the policy and practice regarding (i) data storage (ii) duration of retention of data and disposal (f) the category of data sources (g) a description of all types of uses (to be) made of data, indicating those involving computer-accessible files, and including all classes of users and the organizational relationships among them (h) the procedure whereby an individual can (i) be informed if he is the subject of data in the system (ii) gain access to such data (iii) contest their accuracy, completness, pertinence and the necessity for retaining them (i) the title, name and address of the person immediately responsible for the system?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of National Health and Welfare presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES-RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	In which buildings within the National Capital Region does the Department of Supply and Services presently rent office space on either a short term or long term lease basis?
2.	What is the monthly rent paid for the leasing of office space in each case?
3.	What is the length of time of each such lease?
4.	What are the signing and starting dates of each such lease?
5.	On what date was there physical occupation of each of the premises by the branch for which the office space was secured?
Return tabled.


USE OF AIRCRAFT SUPPORT BY DEPARTMENTS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Which departments of government in pursuit of their programmes used aircraft support obtained from and provided by the air fleets operated by DND and DOT in the fiscal year 1974-75?

2.	For each such department (a) how many actual flying time hours and/or days were obtained by type of aircraft provided (b) what was the level of compensation paid to DND and DOT?
Return tabled.


NAMES AND ADDRESSES OF ADVERTISING AGENCIES EMPLOYED BY EACH FEDERAL DEPARTMENT
Mr. Caouette (Temiscamingue): What are the names and addresses of the advertising agencies employed by each department?
Return tabled.


ATOMIC ENERGY CONTROL BOARD-STANDARD LICENCING AGREEMENT
Mr. Francis: Can the Atomic Energy Control Board supply a standard licencing agreement and, if so, will the government Table a copy in the House?
Return tabled.


LANGUAGE TEACHING SECTIONS WITHIN DEPARTMENTS OF PUBLIC SERVICE
Mr. Lambert (Edmonton West): 1 Have any departments set-up or are contemplating setting-up separate English and French language teaching sections within the department separate and distinct from the language school operated by the Public Service Commission and, if so (a) which ones (b) on what date was such decision taken, by whom and for what reasons?
2.	How many man-years are the estimated requirements for the purpose of each department as described in Part 1?
3.	What is the public service classification and salary range of any and all persons heading up such a section or group?
4.	Will such sections, by direct departmental instructional courses, replace any of the teaching functions of the language school and, if so, in what way?
5.	Are there to be any redundancies in teaching staff at the language school and, if so, how many, or will there be a transfer to departments of any or most of the teaching personnel of the language school?
6.	What is the estimated cost by department of such a reorganization?
Return tabled.


LEGAL AID AGREEMENTS
Mr. Laprise: 1.	With reference to the legal aid agreement between the federal and provincial governments, what were the amounts given to each province in 1973 and 1974?
2.	In each province, how many persons were helped each year and for what offences?
Return tabled.


REGISTERED RETIREMENT SAVINGS PLANS-DEDUCTIONS FROM PERSONAL INCOME TAX
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): 1. For the taxation years 1970 to 1974, both inclusive, how many individual tax filers claimed deductions from personal income tax for contributions to Registered Retirement Savings Plans and what was the total amount claimed?
October 14, 1975

2.	For Canada and for each province, how many individual tax filers claimed deductions and what was the total amount claimed by (a) income group (i) under $5,000 (ii) $5,000-$9,999 (iii) $10,000-$14,999 (iv) $15,000-$19,999 (v) $20,000-$24,999 (vi) $25,000-$49,999 (vii) over $50,000 (b) age group (i) under 20 (ii) 20-30 (iii) 31-40 (iv) 41-50 (v) 51-60 (vi) over 60?
3.	How many individual tax filers claimed deductions and what was the total amount claimed, by type of financial institution dealt with (chartered banks, life insurance, trust or mortgage companies)?
Return tabled.


POST OFFICES LOCATED IN CALGARY, ALBERTA
Mr. Schumacher: 1.	By type and location, how many postal facilities are located in the (a) North East (b) North West (c) South East (d) South West of Calgary, Alberta at the present time?
2.	In each case, as at June 1, what were comparison numbers for (a) 1974 (b) 1973 (c) 1972 (d) 1971 (e) 1970?
3.	In each case, at the present time, are services available to the public for (a) parcel pick-ups (b) COD pick-up (c) registering mail (d) purchasing money orders (e) bulk mailings?
4.	On what date was the last postal survey of facilities available in each section in Part 1 and what was found to be the total volume of business carried out at that time from existing facilities?
5.	In each section, what figures and/or statistics were used since 1960 by the Post Office Department to determine the growth in (a) households (b) apartments (c) businesses?
Return tabled.


IMMIGRATION POSTS ALONG THE CANADA-U.S. BORDER
Mr. Friesen: 1.	What Canadian customs and immigration posts along the Canada-US border do not have direct telephone or other communications systems available to their counterparts on the American side?
2.	How many persons were employed as customs and immigration officers at the Douglas Port of entry in British Columbia in each year 1965 to 1975?
3.	What kind of special training do customs personnel receive for the detection of hard and soft drugs?
Return tabled.


TRANSPORT-FEASIBILITY STUDIES AWARDS FOR MIRABEL AIRPORT
Mr. Huntington: 1.	Since 1968, how many consulting service commissions and feasibility studies did the Department of Transport award for Mirabel Airport?
2.	In each case, what was the name of (a) the company (b) the corporation (c) partnership and/or person which (i) tendered a bid and the amount of their respective tenders (ii) was awarded the contract?
3.	In each case, what was (a) the final amount paid under the contract (b) the specific category of the project or aspect of design the contract was awarded under for (i) runways (ii) passenger terminals (iii) access (iv) environment (v) others?
Return tabled.
Order Paper Questions


PAYMENT TO PERSONS SITTING ON BOARDS OF DIRECTORS IN RECEIPT OF PAYMENT OTHER THAN DIRECTORS' FEES
Mr. Herbert: 1.	Which persons sit on the boards of directors of departmental, agency and proprietary corporations and receive payment, other than director's fees, for services rendered to their corporation?
2.	What is the annual remuneration in each case where the amount has not been approved by Act of Parliament?
Return tabled.


PARKS CANADA-LEASE OF VEHICLES
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	For the fiscal year 1974-1975, how many vehicles were leased by or for Parks Canada for use in (a) Jasper National Park (b) Banff National Park (c) Waterton Lakes National Park?
2.	In each case (a) what was the (i) term (ii) cost of the lease (b) what type of vehicle was involved (c) from whom were the vehicles leased (d) for what purpose was the vehicle used?
Return tabled.


RECALL OF CHRYSLER AUTOMOBILES
Mr. Robinson: How many Chrysler automobiles were recalled in each year 1970 to 1975 to date and for what reason?
Return tabled.


CADET LEAGUES
Mr. Marshall: 1.	In regard to the 7,000 Air Cadets attending summer camp (a) how many applied (b) what percentage of applications were accepted (c) what was the allocation quota (i) for each province (ii) by Cadet (d) which Cadet units are attending summer camp (e) how many female Air Cadets are attending?
2.	What grants are allocated to the three Cadet Leagues?
3.	In regard to each Cadet unit in Canada under Air, Army and Navy, what is the (a) authorized quota (b) present strength (c) sponsoring
body?
4.	Have the Cadet services of Canada requested an increase in grants because of inflation and, if so, what was the government's decision?
5.	Did the government increase the grants and (a) if so, in what amount (b) if not, for what reason?
Return tabled.


GRANTS UNDER INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S YEAR PROGRAMME
Mr. Marshall: What was the (a) project name (b) sponsor (c) location of each recipient of the seventy-two grants given under the International Women's Year Programme?
Return tabled.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-SHIP CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Huntington: 1. In each of the past five years, how many contracts have been awarded for ship construction, acquisition and/or refitting by the Department of National Defence, including those awarded through any other department and, in each case (a) who was the successful bidder and for what amount (b) what was the final amount paid under the

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
contract (c) what other tender bids were received (i) from whom (ii) for what amount?
2.	For the same period, how many contracts have been awarded for ship acquisition, construction and/or refitting without tenders being called and, in each case (a) for what amounts (b) for what reasons?
3.	What are the names and addresses of companies in Canada listed with the Department of National Defence or any other department who have expressed their wish to tender bids for ship construction sale or refitting and/or related marine work?
Return tabled.


CAMPEAU CORPORATION LTD.
Mr. Huntington: 1.	Has Campeau Corporation Ltd. received funding from CMHC for any of its projects and, if so, for each transaction since July 1, 1973 (a) what were the projects (b) the amounts (c) the terms (d) the interest rate?
2.	In what buildings owned by Campeau Corporation Ltd. or its subsidiaries does the government currently lease space and, in each case, what is (a) the square footage (b) dollar cost (c) rate per square foot?
3.	For each year since 1968, what is the square footage of building space and the dollar cost to the government for space leased from Campeau Corporation Ltd.?
Return tabled.


STOL SERVICE
Mr. Jones: 1.	How many employees of the government and/or Crown agencies or corporations used the STOL service between Ottawa and Montreal from January 1, 1975 to date?
2.	What was the cost?
3.	For what reason did they use STOL instead of the regular carriers?
Return tabled.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMANTS
Mr. Alexander: 1.	For those claimants receiving unemployment insurance benefits in (a) 1974 (b) 1975 to date, how many, by month, had (i) an eight (ii) a nine (iii) a ten (iv) an eleven (v) a twelve (vi) a thirteen (vii) a fourteen (viii) a fifteen (ix) a sixteen (x) a seventeen (xi) an eighteen (xii) a nineteen (xiii) a twenty week attachment to the labour force previous to their application for receipt of benefits?
2.	For each category, what percentage of the total unemployment insurance recipients did these applicants constitute?
3.	Of the total number of recipients receiving unemployment insurance benefits what percentage, by month, for (a) 1974 (b) 1975 to date, qualified for the 75% benefit rate due to their (i) classification as "low income claimants" under Section 24 of the Unemployment Insurance Act (ii) qualifying for extended benefits under Section 35 of the Act?
4.	In (a) 1974 (b) 1975 to date, what was the total gross benefits paid out to recipients who qualified for the 75% benefit rate under Section 35 of the Act?
Return tabled.


STARRED QUESTIONS
Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call starred questions No. 2,246, 2,640, 2,940, 3,051 and 3,084?


NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	In what areas of day-to-day operations has authority been delegated from the National Harbours Board at the Port of Montreal to an Executive Committee?
2.	Is it the policy of the government to keep secret the minutes of the Board?
3.	Are any portions of the minutes made public and, if so, under what specific circumstances?
4.	What are the guidelines used by the Board to determine whether or not policy matters are made public or are withheld from public examination?
5.	On what date were they adopted and what is the wording in the legislation that supports this policy?
6.	How far does the withholding of policy decisions from the public advance the image or credibility of the Board in the view of the government?
7.	Is the government prepared to review this matter of alleged secrecy in the adoption of the new port policy?
8.	Do the regulations of the Board conform in every respect to the guidelines for the release of government documents to the public as Tabled in the House on December 14, 1974?


Mr. Ralph E. Goodale (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, as the answer to starred question No. 2,246 is lengthy, I ask the House to consent to the answer being printed in Hansard as if read.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: Answer above referred to reads as follows.]
1. The National Harbours Board hat delegated some authority to an Executive Committee of the Montreal Port Authority with respect to the day-to-day operations at the Port of Montreal in the area of personnel, leases, work contracts, service contracts, purchases, rental of equipment, budgets, marketing, public relations, travel and claims.
2.	The Minutes of the National Harbours Board reflect the decisions of the Chairman and Members who are responsible for the administrative management and control of the property under the Board's jurisdiction. The National Harbours Board ports are in competition with other ports both within Canada and in the United States. It is therefore not considered to be in the best interest of either the National Harbours Board or Canada to make such decisions a matter of public information, since many are related to on-going and sometimes confidential business arrangements.
3.	Extracts of Minutes of meetings of the Board are made available to the Courts for such action as the swearing in or dismissal of police constables or for the transfer of property but are not made public by way of any further distribution. All Minutes of the meetings are available to the Minister of Transport when required.
4.	The National Harbours Board is responsible to Parliament through the Minister of Transport. The Board advises the Minister on all policy matters which are felt to be in the public interest in fulfilment of its responsibility to Parliament and the people of Canada, recognizing its role
October 14, 1975

as a Crown Corporation in competition for business with comparable organizations both within and outside Canada. The Minister of Transport determines the extent to which such policy matters should be made public and at what time in their development.
5.	The adoption of a specific policy is not required, since the matters coming to the attention of the Minister of Transport related to disclosure may vary and are subject to the Minister's determination.
8.	Yes.
Insofar as the Ministry of Transport is concerned:
6.	The Minister of Transport, who has responsibility for the National Harbours Board, determines which policy decisions should be made public. He also decides where public participation and feed back will be helpful in policy formulation or changes. Implicit in these decisions is the desire to advance the public image of the Government as well as the Board.
7.	There is no secrecy in the execution of the present port policies or in consideration of a new ports policy, although some matters have to be confidential during developmental stages.


CONSUMER HELP OFFICE, BRANDON, MANITOBA
Mr. Dinsdale: On what date and in what location will the Consumer Help Office be opening in Brandon, Manitoba?


Mr. Art Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to starred question No. 2,640 is as follows: At this time there are no plans to establish a consumer help in Brandon, Manitoba.


CREATION OF CANADIAN EGG MARKETING AGENCY
Mr. McGrath: 1.	Was the government aware of and did it concur in the suggestions of the Minister of Agriculture that the Provinces of Alberta and New Brunswick should sign the CEMA agreement in order to (a) avoid the control of the movement of eggs from these two Provinces into the other eight (b) prevent the possible flooding of Alberta and New Brunswick markets with eggs from the other provinces (c) preclude the necessity of controlling the movement of foreign eggs into the two Provinces (d) avoid the removal of federal authority for indirect taxation by the two provincial marketing boards?
2.	(a) On what basis are egg prices to be determined (b) if prices are based on a cost of production formula, how was such formula derived?
3.	What steps have been taken to ensure that production levels set by CEMA accurately reflect domestic demands?
4.	If the production levels do, in fact, realistically reflect demand, what controls have been instituted to ensure that production will not exceed the levels set by CEMA?
5.	What steps have been taken to ensure that no barriers to interprovincial trade will occur under the new programme?
6.	Has CEMA been instructed to account publicly for all its decisions affecting egg prices and surplus removal?
7.	When US prices rise, can the government give Canadian consumers assurance to provide justification for supply management and price stability that Canadian eggs will not be exported to the US in response to such a rise, thereby increasing domestic prices?
8.	According to CEMA projections, what will be the new egg prices in each province once the programme is fully operational?
Order Paper Questions
9.	What is the dimension of the current egg surplus?
10.	What steps have been taken to ensure that the wastage of eggs which occurred in 1974 will not be repeated?
11.	Is it the intention of the government, while restricting imports of table eggs, to degrade Canadian surplus eggs and sell them in export markets for processing?
12.	Will the Executive Committee to be appointed to direct CEMA include representatives of non-producers as recommended by the Board in its second egg report?


Mr. Irenee Pelletier (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture):: The answer to starred question No. 2,940 is three pages long and I would like the unanimous consent of the House to have it printed as read?


Mr. Speaker:: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: Answer referred to above reads as follows.]


Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, the answer is: 1. No such suggestion was made.
2.	The amendments to the Federal-Provincial agreement call for a reasonable return over time to producers and in order to achieve this objective CEMA has adopted a cost of production approach. (A) See Sessional Paper No. 301-4/73. (B) The formula was prepared by P.S. Ross & Partner, a firm of consultants who did an exhaustive study over a period of many months.
3.	CEMA, in consultation with the Farm Products Marketing Council are continually monitoring production; inventories and disapearance. The quotas have been reduced by 10% in all provinces with more than 2% of the national quota.
4.	See answer to Part 3. Heavy penalties have been set under the recent amendment to the Federal-Provincial agreement and each provincial board has provided a bond to CEMA to ensure payment of any necessary penalties.
5.	Free movement of eggs interprovincially is a requirement of the Federal-Provincial Agreement.
6.	CEMA functions within the framework of a Federal-Provincial agreement supervised by the Farm Products Marketing Council. The Council will issue regular reports regarding the activities of all agencies as provided in the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act.
7.	Should U.S. egg prices rise to provide an incentive for increased exports of eggs from Canada to the U.S.A., the Export and Import Permits Act would be used to protect supply and maintain reasonable prices in Canada.
8.	The producer prices are being published weekly by Agriculture Canada and are available to the public. See answer to Part 2.
9.	Current egg production is keeping up with table egg and processing demand. No unmanageable surpluses are reported at this date. Exact amounts vary from week to week.
10.	See answer to Part 3. Also CEMA now require that all surplus to table egg requirements owned by CEMA be sold for processing within 7 days.
11.	The matter of egg marketing is the responsibility of CEMA under the terms of the legislation approved by Parliament and through an agreement approved by ten

October 14, 1975
Order Paper Questions
provincial governments and the federal government. The matter of import controls to protect supply management was authorized by Parliament under the Export and Import Permits Act and the volume of imports allowed under that Act relate to the volume imported in the base period 1969 to 1973.
Respecting disposal of eggs see answer to Part 10.
12.	Yes. the Committee of three, which has been appointed, includes one person who is a non-producer, one person whose main business is poultry and the Vice-Chairman of CEMA.


PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE-GRAND PIANO
Mr. Coates: 1.	Has there recently been a purchase, at public expense, of a grand piano for the part-time summer residence of the Prime Minister at Harrington Lake and, if so, what was the exact purchase price?
2.	Were public tenders called and (a) if so, how and on what date (b) if not, for what reason?
3.	Will the piano be played exclusively by the Right Honourable the Prime Minister?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the answer to starred question No. 3,051 is as follows: 1. The Department of Public Works has no records of a grand piano having been purchased at public expense for the Prime Minister's summer residence at Harrington Lake.
2.	No public tenders were called by the Department of Public Works.
3.	Not applicable.


CANADIAN ARMY-RECRUITMENT AND TRAINING OF NURSES
Mr. Baker (Grenville-Carleton): 1.	Has the Canadian Armed Forces increased its recruitment and training of nurses?
2.	How many military nurses are graduating in 1975 as opposed to (a) 1974 (b) 1973?
3.	Are there vacant positions for nurses at military establishments other than NDMC?
4.	What is the process of selection which determines what positions will be filled by graduating military nurses (a) generally (b) specifically with respect to NDMC?
5.	Has the Canadian Armed Forces changed its policy on the rotation of military nurses abroad?
6.	What number of military nurses will be required to serve outside of Canada in 1975 as opposed to (a) 1974 (b) 1973?
7.	What priority will be given to the reinstatement and/or re-employment of any or all of the fourteen nurses either within DND or other departments and agencies of the Public Service (a) in the National Capital Region (b) elsewhere?
8.	Will civilian nurses subject to lay-off be considered for vacant positions at other military establishments immediately or as they fall vacant?
9.	Does the Department propose to lay off all civilian nurses at NDMC and, if so, in what time frame?
10.	How much does it cost to keep one military nurse at the rank of (a) Lieutenant (b) Captain (c) Major for one year, inclusive of salary, fringe benefits, uniforms, accommodation and other benefits?
Hon. James A. Richardson (Minister of National
Defence): Mr. Speaker, as the answer to starred question

No. 3,084 is long, I ask the House if it can be printed in
Hansard as if read.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: Answer above referred to reads as follows:]


James Armstrong Richardson: 1. The Canadian Armed Forces do not recruit and train nurses. Only graduate registered nurses who have a minimum of two years post graduate nursing experience are enrolled in the Armed Forces.
2.	As indicated in answer number one there are no military nurses graduating in Canada, however, enrollment of registered nurses in the Armed Forces up to the present in 1975/76 was 35, in 1974/75 enrollment was 97, and in 1973/74 enrollment was 47.
3.	Yes, on a temporary basis.
4.	(a) and (b). The prerequisites for selection of nurses for the Forces are: must be a graduate nurse; have a minimum of two years post graduate nursing experience; and be currently registered in a provincial nurses association. On enrollment nurses are placed in vacant positions at Canadian Forces hospitals and clinics wherever they exist. There is no special selection process for NDMC.
5.	No.
6.	22. (a) 21; (b) 21.
7.	(a) and (b). The fourteen nurses referred to who were previously employed at NDMC were all term employees and there is no priority by statute, for re-appointment in accordance with the Public Service Employment Act. However, it is the practice within DND to re-appoint nurses in order of seniority for NDMC in the National Capital Region or to military establishments elsewhere provided they are available for service at the new location, and belong to the Registered Nurses Association in the province of employment
8.	Yes, as positions become vacant.
9.	No.
10.	Average salary and uniform allowances amount to: (a) $11,358 per annum, (b) $16,800 per annum, (c) $20,436 per annum. Medical and dental care and other fringe benefits cannot be accurately estimated on an individual basis.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the remaining questions stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: I ought to forewarn hon. members that there has been some technical difficulty with the computer equipment in the government printing bureau which will put the printing of Hansard behind schedule. I suggest that the burden which has been placed on those facilities in the last few minutes will make the situation critical. We can do little more than keep our fingers crossed: there may be some delay in the delivery of Hansard tomorrow.
Orders of the day.
October 14, 1975




Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to special order made earlier this day, Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale), seconded by Mr. Sharp, moves:
That this House do now adjourn.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, as my first words, in light of some of the comments I made to my hon. friends immediately before the adjournment of this House last July, let me acknowledge that a funny thing happened to me in the course of my retirement from public life and I find myself, through a process which I cannot easily explain, diverted to the responsibilities of minister of finance. In taking over what I recognize is a heavy responsibility from my very able predecessor, the hon. member for Ottawa-Carleton (Mr. Turner)-


Some Hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: -who faced with distinction a series of severe challenges in economic decisionmaking both at home and abroad, I have been bolstered by the expression of good wishes that I have received from all sides of this House and from across the country. I must confess that I would like to have had a little more time in which to learn the ropes. As it is, I have been undergoing an accelerated course of on-the-job training over the past several days during which other members of government and I have been considering, on an urgent basis, how best to deal with the developing economic problems confronting our country.
As underlined by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) in speaking to the nation on television last night, and by the white paper which I have tabled in the House on behalf of the government, the powerful and deeply entrenched inflationary forces racking our economy now imperil our prospects for the future. We have reached the point where there is a very real danger that if inflation is not halted and reversed, it will grow to ever larger proportions, sapping our economic strength and undermining our prospects for resurgent growth of output, employment and the real income of Canadians.
In the government's judgment, there is now a critical need for the establishment of a concerted program of national action involving all governments and all Canadians to break the vicious spiral of cost and prices that endangers the stability of our economy and, indeed, of our whole society. What is equally important is that the strong public support so crucial to the success of such a national program also now exists for the first time in Canada.
Before outlining the broad approach being developed by the government for dealing immediately and over the longer term with the problems confronting us, I would like
Anti-Inflation
to try to put the origin and nature of these problems in some perspective. Over the course of the past three years, Canada, as a major trading nation and a major participant in international capital markets, has been heavily exposed to the enormous shocks that have reverberated throughout the world. We were buffeted first by immense inflationary pressures generated by soaring international prices for food, oil and industrial raw materials. As the world moved from runaway boom to the deepest and most prolonged recession of the post-war period, demand for many of our major exports plummeted, output was sharply cut back and unemployment sharply increased.
There is, of course, no possible way in which an economy such as ours could avoid being seriously affected by these adverse developments abroad. Throughout this period, however, government policy has had the consistent aim of doing everything that was practically possible to cushion the Canadian economy from the worst effects of these global shock waves. We formulated a number of measures aimed at doing what we could in Canada to get at the root of inflationary problems by increasing supply and by encouraging expansion of our productive capacity. At the same time, we brought forward a wide range of policies aimed at moderating the impact of inflation on the Canadian people through such means as substantial personal and commodity tax reductions, indexation of the personal income tax system and of family allowances, old age pensions and the Canada Pension Plan, and a wide range of subsidies to hold down the prices of certain basic foodstuffs and of petroleum. These measures served both to ease the burden of inflation on Canadians individually and to sustain the economy as a whole by preventing any serious erosion of real consumer income and expenditures.
We were among the first to take stimulative fiscal action to counter the adverse impact on our domestic economy of the impending recession that we foresaw developing abroad, although we in common with others underestimated the length and depth of that recession. Nevertheless, the expansionary fiscal policies introduced by the government, together with major programs that automatically come into effect to help stabilize the economy, such as the greatly expanded unemployment insurance system put in place a few years ago, have also played an important part in shielding Canadians from the worst effects of lagging growth and in sustaining the economy in the face of severe recession abroad.
All of these federal programs to cushion the impact of both inflation and recession, many of which have been complemented and reinforced by the provinces, have inevitably put heavy financial strains on both federal and provincial treasuries. But it has been the judgment of government generally that these measures were essential in both human and economic terms. They were essential to moderate the burden of sharply increasing prices and lack of jobs on individual Canadians, and essential to sustain the economy in order to prevent the build-up of massive unemployment because of the rapid growth of our labour force.
On the surface, our current economic position might appear to some Canadians as being reasonably favourable.

October 14, 1975
Anti-Inflation
Our economy has suffered a far less prolonged and severe recession than many other major industrial nations. Judged by such measures as the consumer price index or the price indexes of the goods we export and import, our rate of inflation would not appear to be out of line with the average for the industrial countries. The very large increase that has taken place in our current account deficit with other nations over the past several months can also be attributed in large measure to the fact that our economy has remained relatively strong, with the result that the pace of imports has considerably outstripped that of our exports.
Such considerations may be comforting, but they mask the reality of our situation. The hard fact is that the Canadian economy today is being subjected to underlying, domestically-generated inflationary forces that are far more severe than those being experienced by most of our major trading partners.
In no small measure, the deep-seated problem now plaguing us is a product of our very success in maintaining economic activity at a considerably higher level than that in most other industrial nations. Had we suffered as severe and prolonged an economic contraction as countries such as the United States, Germany and Japan, it is virtually certain that we would also have experienced substantially less build-up of cost pressures. But because we as a nation escaped the constraints forcefully imposed on other countries by severe recession and were not prepared to join together in exercising some agreed measure of selfrestraint, our underlying production costs have increased much more rapidly than those in countries such as the United States and Germany and still show no sign of decelerating significantly, as they do in Japan.
The real danger to our economy lies ahead. As countries like the United States, Germany and Japan pull out of their present deep recession, they can expect to enjoy very much higher productivity gains than Canada. The effect would be to widen substantially the differential between our unit costs and those of our major competitors.

Mr. Speaker, it is sometimes stressed that the threat to the competitive position of Canadian goods on domestic and foreign markets embodied in such measures can be offset by the depreciation of the Canadian dollar. Such a course brings but temporary relief. Dollar depreciation would simply increase the cost of imported goods and services, therefore intensifying inflationary pressures.
Dollar depreciation would bring but very limited and temporary relief to the more vulnerable areas of the Canadian economy, including our manufacturing industry whose competitive position may be more seriously affected by the so-called cost-push. But the basic reason is that continuous cost and price increases, coupled with constant erosion of our currency, offer no practical basis for a healthy and dynamic future economy. Such a course would intensify savings erosion, engulf money markets and hinder both the yield on new corporate investments and housing starts. These are the prime factors pointing to the necessity of controlling inflation in Canada.
[Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale).)
During these past years of economic upheaval, much time and effort has been fruitlessly spent in an effort to point the finger at one group or another as the prime source of all our troubles, with business, labour and governments all being singled out, at one time or another, as leading candidates for the villain's role. I think it would be truer to say that all of us have been caught up by the turbulent new forces which have gripped our economy, adjusting and responding as best we knew how to meet our respective needs and responsibilities. In the process, however, we have collectively tried to take out of the economy more than it has provided. In doing so we have created serious problems for the future. Notwithstanding some of the rhetoric, I think the vast majority of Canadians are convinced that the time has come when we must all pull back.
As the white paper makes clear, Mr. Speaker, the program formulated by the government for attacking the major problems facing the economy encompasses four different elements. These involve the maintenance of a balance of fiscal and monetary policies that will encourage economic recovery and at the same time provide for gradual moderation of inflation; limitations on the growth of government expenditures and the size of the public service; structural policies aimed at ensuring the necessary supplies of energy, food and housing, increasing the efficiency and competitiveness of the economy and bringing about an improvement in labour-management relations; and, finally, adoption of a prices and incomes policy.
Let me deal first with the latter program. I will have an opportunity, when implementing legislation is introduced for debate on second reading, to go more thoroughly into the details, so today I will confine myself to a brief outline. Tn the white paper, the government has proposed an initial set of broad guidelines to provide a measure of what it considers to be reasonable and responsible behaviour in the determination of prices, profits, rents, wages, salaries, dividends, fees, commissions and similar types of income. The government strongly urges that all Canadians adhere to the guidelines, which become effective today, both in the national interest and ultimately in their own interest.
Unless we can work together with a firm sense of national purpose, we shall all be the worse off. The success of this policy-or of any other form of incomes policy-depends vitally on the readiness of the great majority of the people to comply with it voluntarily. To ensure that the public interest prevails, however, the program will be reinforced by federal administrative machinery established to monitor price and income developments throughout the economy. This proposed new administrative arm, backed as an ultimate resort by the firm sanctions of the law, will, in particular, oversee compliance with the guidelines by the larger economic interests which play such a dominant role in the establishment of cost-price patterns across Canada.

Mr. Speaker, provincial governments whose contribution
will be essential to the success of the program are request-
October 14, 1975

ed to cooperate with the federal government by following the guidelines and ensuring that they are complied with by various provincial firms, organizations and communities. Besides doing everything they can to foster widespread support for that initiative among the general public, provinces are specifically requested to have rent increases and professional fees comply with those guidelines.
As I mentioned earlier, the legislation implementing the program as proposed by the government will provide the means of forcing top economic groups of Canada to comply with the guidelines. It will relate to firms or groups of related firms with over 500 employees and all construction companies with more than 20 employees as well as all those employed by those companies. Employees of groups of firms who will jointly negotiate agreements on an industrial scale will come within the provisions of that legislation as well as the firms which employ them. Professional individuals or firms will come under the provisions of the legislation. So will the federal government and every Crown corporation or other organization as well as their employees. Provincial governments, if they are willing to abide by those guidelines and have their organizations and municipalities comply with them will be free to do so or set up their own procedures. The legislation might also be applied to groups of seemingly vital importance for Canada through orders in council.

Mr. Speaker, the statutory provision will apply to somewhat more than 1,500 firms, roughly 5 per cent of the total number of firms in Canada. Approximately 2,300,000 employees of private sector firms will be covered, around two-thirds of the total number of employed persons in the private industrial sector of the economy. Approximately another 2,000,000 employees of all federal, provincial and municipal governments and agencies, hospitals and schools will also be covered if all public bodies in the provinces also participate, which would bring the total number of employees subject to the statutory guidelines to 4,300,000.
The agency primarily responsible for supervising the guidelines program will be the anti-inflation board, which will be appointed initially by order-in-council under the Inquiries Act prior to its establishment under the authority of the legislation. It will be responsible for providing such clarification of the guidelines as may be necessary, monitoring their observance and pinpointing actual or proposed increases in prices or incomes which appear to exceed those guidelines.
It is also being proposed to the provinces that a special public sector panel be established under the anti-inflation board to consider questions relating to prices and incomes involving governments and their agencies. We are suggesting that some members of this panel be nominated by provincial governments. One of the functions of the board will be to carry out discussions with all parties involved in an effort to bring about compliance with the guidelines. If the issue cannot be resolved satisfactorily, the board may refer it to the enforcement authority designated as the administrator and appointed by order-in-council, who may take appropriate action under the law to bring about com-
Anti-Inflation
pliance. Decisions of the administrator may be appealed within 60 days to the anti-inflation appeal tribunal which will also be established under the legislation. Decisions of the administrator may also be changed by direction of the governor in council. Decisions of the tribunal may, in turn, be appealed to the Federal Court of Appeal.
As a general principle, the guidelines provide that increases in prices undertaken by companies should be no more than the net increase in their costs. The way in which this principle applies, however, will depend on the nature and size of the enterprise and the kind of business in which it is engaged. Firms which are able to allocate costs to individual products are expected to increase their prices by no more than the actual increase in their costs for such products and to decrease prices if their costs are reduced. Firms which are unable to allocate costs to individual products are asked to establish price levels which would yield a pre-tax profit margin no higher than 95 per cent of its average profit margin over the last five fiscal years.
Different guidelines will apply to the distribution sector, which follows different pricing practices. As a general rule, retail and wholesale firms are expected not to increase customary mark-ups on various kinds of merchandise.
Banks and other financial institutions will be expected to follow the general rule, increasing service charges or interest rates only sufficiently to cover increases in their operating costs and other expenses, or increases in the interest rates which they pay for funds on deposit or borrowed.
As the House will appreciate, a difficult problem arises in the case of companies which sell a significant proportion of their output in the export market. As a general rule, such companies will be expected to sell abroad at the prevailing international market price, to sell in the domestic market at a price that is consistent with the guidelines, and to ensure that the Canadian market is fully supplied at that domestic price. Following discussions with those concerned, the government plans to impose a special levy in cases where the over-all profit margins of such companies exceed guideline limits. Prices received by farmers and fishermen on their products will be exempt from the guidelines. But we will be holding discussions with the provincial governments about the operations of agricultural marketing boards to ensure that their operations are consistent with the guidelines.
Turning to the question of incomes, the guidelines proposed will be governed by four main elements. The first is a basic protection factor which initially provides for income increases of 8 per cent in the first year of new contracts, 6 per cent in the second and 4 per cent in the third. The second factor provides for a further increase of 2 percentage points to take account of the long-term growth of productivity. For the average worker, therefore, the guidelines provide an increase in remuneration of 10 per cent. For employees who have fallen behind the increase in consumer prices over the past two or three years, the guidelines make provision for a catch-up increase of up to
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2 per cent per year, bringing the maximum permissible increase to 12 per cent in the first year.
In the case of employees whose income over the past few years has risen by more than consumer prices, the permissible increase this year would be reduced by up to 2 percentage points, with the result that the maximum permissible gain would be no more than 8 per cent in the first year. In the event the actual increase in consumer prices exceeds the basic protection factor in one period, the permissible increases in a succeeding period would be raised so as to make it possible for the income of employees to keep pace with the rise in the cost of living.

Mr. Speaker, increases already granted are not affected by these guidelines. Also excluded will be agreements executed before the start of 1974 that have expired and are now being renegotiated.
The fourth point in the guidelines is the provision about minimum and maximum increases. At the lower end of the income ladder workers may get income increases up to $600 irrespective of the general guidelines. As to the upper income groups the ceiling for the average maximum increase is set at $2,400.
As I said earlier those guidelines would apply to those providing specialized services, and provincial governments are urged to use all their power to ensure the observation of those guidelines.
In that program the government intends to undertake intensive talks with the provinces as well as business, labour and other sectors. The guidelines set out in that policy statement were intended as "first" steps; we wanted thus to show that we are prepared to change certain things either following questions raised in Parliament or during the talks we are planning to have with all those concerned. We are entering a brand new area with which none of us are familiar; there will surely be difficulties and thorny issues. So it is important to maintain consultation and coordinate our efforts to solve the problems and difficulties that will come up.

The details involving the guidelines will be spelled out in regulations to be drawn up under the implementing legislation being submitted to parliament. In general terms, the guidelines are effective as of today, but the government recognizes that some uncertainty is bound to arise about their applications in a host of special circumstances. We will try to provide the necessary clarification as soon as possible. In the interval, particular care should be taken, especially by those subject to enforcement provisions, to ensure that any increases in prices or incomes are clearly within the intent of the guidelines. In this connection, I am hereby giving formal notice of intent that the guidelines to be established by regulation under the antiinflation act, when adopted by parliament, are applicable as of today.
No one should be under any illusion, Mr. Speaker, that
the prices and incomes policy we have proposed will bring
about any substantial reduction quickly in the inflation
that is so deeply embedded in our system. We have every reason to hope, however, that barring any new shocks from abroad it will serve to halt and gradually reverse the present spiral of costs and prices.
I should now like to deal with some of the broader questions that undoubtedly will be raised in connection with the prices and incomes program for which we are asking support from both parliament and the nation. It has been contended in some quarters, both inside and outside the House, that the government should have taken action long before now to establish some form of prices and incomes policy. There were others, of course, who argued equally as strongly against such a course, some of whom still continue to do so. In our view, the proposal for imposition of comprehensive, mandatory price and income controls that some urged on us 2 Vi years ago was very much the wrong policy at the wrong time. Such controls could not possibly have been effective in holding back the tidal wave of inflation sweeping over this country from abroad.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I do not ask hon. members to believe me, but I am sure they will listen to the hon. member for Don Valley (Mr. Gillies) in that particular regard.


An hon. Member:: How about John Turner?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Such controls would also have been ineffective because in our judgment the strong public support essential to their success did not at that time exist. Indeed, the experience a few years ago in the United Kingdom, when determined opposition to controls brought the British economy to its knees, harshly demonstrated that controls can work very much against the interests of the economy if they are not firmly backed by the great majority of the people.
About a year ago it became apparent that the nature of the inflationary problem had begun to change, with the strongest inflationary pressures increasingly being generated at home rather than from abroad. The changing nature of the problem called for a changed response. Members will recall that the government devoted a great deal of time and effort over a period of several months in trying to reach agreement among various groups in our economy on a fair and equitable means of restraining increases in prices and incomes.
All groups recognized the severity of the problem posed by inflation, and we made considerable progress in developing a generally acceptable set of guidelines. Indeed, hon. members will recognize in the guidelines in the white paper the documents tabled by my predecessor in this House on May 8. In the end, however, we were unable to reach an understanding because of persistent doubt about whether the guidelines, if adopted, would in fact be observed.
Following the conclusion of our earlier efforts to secure an understanding on prices and incomes restraint, we were reluctant to contemplate some form of direct intervention by the government because there still remained some reason to hope that the spiral of costs and prices would
(Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale).
October 14, 1975

begin to abate, and because of our judgment that the necessary public support for such intervention did not exist. With each passing month it has become increasingly apparent that inflationary pressures have been intensifying rather than receding. It has become clear beyond any reasonable doubt, both to the government and to the great majority of Canadians, that it has now become absolutely essential to take decisive action to bring inflation under control.
The second major question that is bound to be debated is our intention of confining enforcement of the guidelines to the large economic groups within the economy, rather than establishing a comprehensive mandatory control system. We chose to follow this course because we wished to intervene as little as possible in the operations of the economy and in the lives of Canadians. We have sought to frame a selective system subject to enforcement that is flexible and reasonably manageable, one that will have the least adverse effect possible in distorting and disrupting the regular workings of our economy.
At the same time, we believe that the system we have proposed will be effective in achieving its purpose by ensuring the exercise of restraint by those groups which possess exceptional power to impose excessive price and income increases on other groups in the economy.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to touch briefly on the other elements that form part of the framework of policy required to strengthen the foundation of our economy. It is, of course, of critical importance that our fiscal and monetary policies be properly geared to maintain the economy on an even keel. In our judgment, the set of fiscal policies established in the June budget and the prevailing stance of monetary policy provide a reasonable balance in current economic circumstances. As we have learned from recent experience, however, economic circumstances can change swiftly and drastically. We are, therefore, very conscious of the need to stand ready to make changes in fiscal and monetary policies as they are required to respond to changing conditions.
During the past few years there has been a substantial increase in government expenditures, particularly at the federal level. As I suggested earlier, a very large part of this increase has been the consequence of measures adopted by governments to cushion the impact of both the sharply increased cost of living and of higher unemployment on Canadians, particularly those most adversely affected, and to offset the adverse effect on the economy as a whole of inflation and recession.
If we are to bring the underlying problem of inflation under control, however, it is now essential to do everything reasonably possible to restrain the further growth of government spending. In the budget last June, the government outlined substantial reductions that were being made in controllable expenditures in the current fiscal year to provide an offset for increases in outlays that could not be avoided either because of contractual or moral commitments or to meet requirements essential to the well-being of the economy and of the Canadian people.
Anti-Inflation
The substantial increase in government expenditures in recent years has unavoidably been accompanied by a substantial increase in the size of the public service. The June budget cut the projected growth for the current fiscal year from 4.1 per cent to 3.1 per cent. In the next fiscal year the increase in the federal public service will be restricted to 1.5 per cent. Essential increases in some areas will be largely offset by reductions in others, with the result that the majority of government departments will be permitted fewer man-years in 1976-77 than was the case in 1974-75. We believe that it should be the objective of all governments to limit the growth of public spending to the growth of gross national production. That will be our basic aim in the preparation of spending plans for the next fiscal year and the years beyond that.
The final element of the program relates to structural adjustments that need to be made in the economy to improve its capacity to provide certain essential supplies that we will require in future and to make our economic system more innovative, dynamic and efficient by reducing existing rigidities and intensifying competition.
The need to bring about a substantial reduction in the overall rate of inflation is made all the more pressing by the fact that certain relative price increases are unavoidable over time, increases that we can absorb without undue hardship if we can restore strong real growth of our national wealth. Phased increases in the price of energy, for example, are essential to meet the soaring cost of finding, developing and marketing the new energy sources that will be required in future to meet our needs for heat, light and power. Such increases are equally essential over time to promote more efficient use of our energy resources. In prevailing circumstances of much lower petroleum prices in Canada than abroad, it becomes all the more important to intensify other efforts to conserve energy consumption.
The substantially increased cost of housing must also be met if construction of the new residential units required for our growing population is to be undertaken. As the white paper stated, the federal government will shortly announce proposals for the provision of special new incentives to encourage increased housing construction. We will also be discussing with the provinces means of increasing the supply of serviced land for housing in order to put a damper on soaring land costs.
Higher prices for certain foods may also be unavoidable if farmers are to receive a return that is sufficient to cover their sharply rising costs and yield a fair and reasonable income to compensate for all their labours and investment. At the same time, however, we must also ensure that our price and marketing system are not structured to maintain inefficient agricultural production and distribution.
The government plans to bring forward at an early date the second phase of its policy to strengthen competitiveness of our economy, which is the surest guarantee of its efficient and effective operation. Together with provincial governments and other interested parties, we propose to scrutinize a wide variety of government policies and programs in an effort to find ways of reducing rigidities and costs that they may impose unnecessarily on various sectors of the economy. The recently established tripartite
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Canada Labour Relations Council hopefully can make an important contribution to the improvement of industrial relations in this country, which is also required to bolster the effectiveness and efficiency of our economic system.
In concluding, Mr. Speaker, I would like to underline one fundamental point, a point that is also emphasized in the white paper. Whatever differences of interest may exist between the various sectors that make up our economy are far outweighed by the common interest we all share in seeing that strong and stable growth of output, employment and the standard of living of Canadians is restored. It is, therefore, very much in the interest of every group to work together to achieve these national objectives.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: First, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I would like to direct my comments to the new Minister of State (Mr. Marchand), previously Minister of Transport. I am sorry that he is not here today. Ten years ago, he decided to make the move to federal politics to reinforce national unity within confederation. With all his strength, he vigorously denounced separatism in Quebec. He also worked at making the two founding peoples of this country equal partners who now share fully in our national life. He accepted his heavy responsibilities with conviction, determination and courage. This man can be proud of his task and his work which was often thankless. The preoccupations and responsibilities of political life throughout the years have marked him and have affected his health. This led him to accept to play a less prominent role in the future. I had occasion to criticize the legislation that he defended and I have often doubted his administrative capacities.
Today, I wish to pay him a particular and personnal homage and to tell him that I respect him very profoundly and that I admire him sincerely. His fights throughout the years to defend certain fundamental principles put him in a very special class. I would like him to know that I have always shared the profound aspirations which have guided his political action. I hope that he will long stay with us and I wish him a very speedy recovery.
Mr. Speaker, our new Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) has made quite a spectacular entrance into this job. I congratulate him on this appointment and I congratulate the new ministers, the switched ministers, the new parliamentary secretaries and the quiet-spoken new whip on the other side.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I sincerely wish the new Minister of Finance well. I know he will appreciate that the doubts and concerns that I express today are something more than partisan in intent. I must say about him that he seems to be a quick learner. He has learned quickly from his predecessor, who has shown on more than one occasion that there are things worth lifting from time to time from this side of the House.
[Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale).J


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I will miss some of the stellar performances of the former minister of finance. As he is probably aware, I have been inviting him to schedule a further performance at the earliest opportunity. I do not know whether we are going to hear from him in the course of the day, but I understand there are already some who thought that perhaps the minister had resigned because he felt the government was not tough enough and who have, since last evening, begun to wonder whether the former minister of finance resigned because he thought the government has gone too far and is too tough, particularly in view of some of the scathing things which the former minister of finance said from time to time about compulsory price and wage controls. I look to the minister to clarify his position at the very earliest opportunity.


John Edward Broadbent: You can wait.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: There are some unpleasant things which have to be said today about the record of this government and the process by which it has come to the point of presenting this white paper today. I want to assure the House and the people in Canada that today and in the days ahead as this new program unfolds, my observations and criticisms are, and will be, directed toward making the government work to help make our society work. Some might think that this is an occasion of pretty substantial vindication of my party and myself.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Personally, I do not take very much pleasure in that. I have been vindicated so many times before that I do not take much pleasure from it now, not because I do not enjoy being vindicated, not because I dislike it, but because I believe that the reluctant and belated confirmation of a diagnosis does not necessarily ensure that the real cure is on the way. I would feel very much better if the medical staff on the case had a far better record.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I am relieved by the fact that the government is finally doing something, but I remain concerned that it has taken so long to take any kind of action, and I am, quite frankly, very dubious about the government's fundamental sincerity. The Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau), on television and here in the House, has done very little so far to purge me of my doubts. I say very bluntly to you, sir-and I have to say this-that I believe very little of what this government says.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I say that this government's biggest challenge in getting any program off the ground is to get Canadians to believe what it says. If the government is going into this endeavour under the impression that its credibility is high, and that by and large things will sort of come together, if it shows us the kind of cavalier behaviour which it has adopted so many times in the past, this country will be headed for literally terrible consequences, because the official opposition in this House has no monopoly on doubt and suspicion with regard to this
October 14, 1975

government or with regard to this government's program. Those who have been suffering the most will question why the government has waited until those who are best able to look after themselves have done so by and large. Those who have lost ground, particularly those who have lost jobs, will wonder how far off renewed opportunities are for them, and whether catching up will ever be a realistic prospect for them.
Trust and confidence have been injured in our society. There are difficult times ahead for our economy. They will not be quickly or easily healed. They will not be healed at all if the government appears to be less than frank or less than fair-minded as it proceeds with this endeavour. No amount of bureaucracy and no exercise of power will be any substitute for frankness, openness and exemplary conduct on the part of this government. If that is not forthcoming, then the whole exercise will do nothing more than compound the injury that has already been done-and that would indeed be tragic.
The government comes to the House today and seeks support for its general outline of this program. There is no vote involved, just the assessment and comments which will be put forward in the course of today's debate. So far as the white paper is concerned, it is a pretty superficial treatment of what is a very complex matter. But I will not be critical about that today; I simply say that the white paper obviously raises far more questions than it answers-and you can be sure that I am familiar with the questions involved because I have probably been asked more questions on this than anybody else in the country: I am perhaps still the ranking expert in terms of questions about this matter.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: There is legislation to come in the next days and weeks. This House will be dealing in greater detail with the substance of this program, perhaps piece by piece or perhaps all together: we do not know today. Today I will not attempt to go into detail. Rather, I want briefly to deal with the recent history in the present context of this move by the government. Earlier I said that I could believe very little of what this government says, and that, sir, is just another example of my gift for understatement.
I am prepared to concede that the government may not face quite the degree of difficulty in getting some of what it says believed in the country at large as it will have in getting me to believe it, because the country at large has not sat here in the House in my seat for eight years watching "Cynicism Incorporated." The country at large was not here following the 1972 election when the former minister of finance surfaced after an election, implementing measures which he had said during the campaign would bankrupt the country. There was a modest increase in old age pensions, some needed tax cuts and, of course, tax indexing. It was quite a turn-around show following the election of 1972. It was quite a show indeed, if one likes that sort of thing. It was slick, smooth and totally devoid of principle.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!
Anti-Inflation


Robert Lorne Stanfield: In some judgments, that sort of thing is nothing more than clever politics. In my book, judgments of that nature are just as shallow as the acts themselves. I do not want to make myself out to be qualified to moralize, but I do believe that a great part of the problem of distrust which runs through our society today has been created by overdoses of that kind of politics and those kinds of judgments.
When we get right down to it, we are really dealing with a moral issue in what is before us. I am sure the Prime Minister realizes this, but I am not sure that he and his government recognize that they have to come to grips with it in their own behaviour. I know that the economic and social objectives will not be met unless there is some confidence abroad that the Prime Minister and the government are coming to grips with this issue and the fact that they are not an exception to the moral principles with which we are dealing.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: This is an unspoken component of leadership which will have a great bearing on the success or failure of the government's initiative of intervention which is outlined in this white paper, and it cannot be a "sometime" thing, if there is to be any change of bringing this country together in a shared, sincere attempt to improve conditions in our society.
Here, again, I say that this government in its recent record does not inspire my confidence. The way the announcement of this program was handled was disturbingly reminiscent to me of the kind of thing we saw when the crunch was on in the petroleum crisis. When that finally hit home to the Prime Minister and his colleagues, despite years of forewarning, they put on a great act at having been taken by surprise. Then there was a flurry of activity and exhortations and the Prime Minister went on television and solemnly said a few things. It was a very impressive drama.
Today, we are evidently right back where we started, again living in a fool's paradise as far as energy policy and practices are concerned. The minister touched on energy policy this afternoon. Where is the vaunted conservation program which was to emerge from that crisis? Where are the benefit-sharing arrangements with the Atlantic provinces and Quebec? Where is the adequate research program on alternate sources of energy? Today, those Canadians who can afford to are wasting just as much energy as ever. The government has not followed through on its own initiative and what was alleged to be leadership at that time.
After his television appearance on that occasion, the Prime Minister virtually dropped from public view. Are we going to see the same thing happen this time? The then minister of energy, mines and resources-who is on the hot seat again today-was front and centre on television, promoting the distribution of a booklet which did not even exist at that time, a booklet supposedly being produced by a conservation office which took ages to staff.
Rising prices have constituted the only actual incentive to energy conservation we have seen in this country. Con-

October 14, 1975
Anti-Inflation
servation is being practised by those who cannot afford not to practise it. The white paper essentially acknowledges that. This is certainly not providing leadership by example. On the contrary, as far as this government is concerned, if one wants to see an example of perverse construction for the Canadian climate one does not have to look any farther than two blocks west, at the new Bank of Canada building.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: The limousines roll on; ministerial car pools have faded away like mentions of the just society. Conservation is demonstrably an endangered species within the confines of the operations of this government. Wasteful trappings for show have been the rule rather than the exception. If the Prime Minister and his colleagues hope to have any real chance of being taken seriously this time around with this general restraint program, they had better quickly show Canadians that they can mend their own ways as far as energy policy is concerned.
I say to the Prime Minister and to the Minister of Finance, "Don't try to snow us. Show us."


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I understand that the Prime Minister will be speaking in this debate. I do not know whether I will hear him or not, because I made a commitment to accept a dinner engagement with Dr. Kissinger-another great man-but I will read what the Prime Minister has to say if I should, regretfully, miss hearing him in this debate. I hope he will take the opportunity to deal with some of the fears, doubts and suspicions which his record, more than anything else, has raised.
The energy area is not the only recent example of the Prime Minister's starting something off with a good deal of flair, and then appearing to have tired of it and abandoning the whole thing. This was true, for example, in the consensus exercise to which the Minister of Finance referred today. Early in that game the Prime Minister gave assurances to the House that he accepted the top level responsibility for that program. He certainly did nothing to alter the widespread presumptions that he would remain very personally involved in it, using the weight of his office and the strength of his talents to bring it all off.
Whether this was what the Prime Minister intended the perception to be, this is in fact what the perception was and the Prime Minister must surely have been aware of that. It subsequently appeared that he withdrew from participation in that program. This was when I began to be convinced that the whole consensus operation was a sham. The Prime Minister may recall that my colleagues and I started out prepared to support that effort as we understood it in its broad terms. In that case we never got beyond broad terms, and the Prime Minister never appeared to go beyond the very short term as far as involvement was concerned, so we ended up with nothing that deserved support. As it turned out, we were not alone in that view when the last act hit the stage.
Now we are looking at a program which involves much bigger stakes and the same kind of presumptions have already been made about the involvement of the Prime Minister as were made when the so-called consensus exer-

cise began. If those presumptions are in error, the Prime Minister might as well tell us so today. If the presumptions are well founded, he should let us know as much as he can about the planned extent of his own involvement in this general restraint program in the coming months. Let there be no nonsense or kidding ourselves with regard to this matter. The Prime Minister has conditioned the country to a personal style of administration. I mean no slight to the Minister of Finance or any other minister in the government when I say that there is no question about who runs the government: it is the Prime Minister. The kind of effort which he put into the 1974 election campaign is the kind of effort he will have to make not only to launch this general restraints program but to sustain it, fortify it and reinforce it in the months ahead. That is absolutely essential. It is, also, absolutely essential that the Prime Minister should quickly get over any indigestion he may suffer in having swallowed himself in the course of announcing this program.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: There is really no room in this exercise for integrated rationalization, revisions of history, stretches of imagination or preoccupation with trying to grasp straws in self-justification. We heard the new Minister of Finance go through this whole thing again here this afternoon. This is a program of general, large-scale mandatory price and income controls and it is going to be tough enough to live with knowing what it is, without the Prime Minister contorting himself to say that it is not what it is.
Let me say this. We have said for some time that an anti-inflationary program must be comprehensive, that a program of controls, short-term controls, has a certain role to play, but they have to be reinforced with other measures which include appropriate fiscal and monetary policy. The Minister of Finance touched on this briefly today.
I read a sentence in the white paper which I wish I had had more time, in the course of a busy day, to try to figure out. Perhaps if I read it here, the Prime Minister can explain later exactly what it means. The passage says that the federal government shares the view that the trend of total spending by all governments in Canada should not rise more quickly than the trend of the gross national product. What does that mean, Mr. Speaker?


An hon. Member:: It is trendy.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: It may be trendy; but if I ever read a weasel sentence, that is it. I think it must have been written by the Department of Justice.
Furthermore, we have insisted that any such program must be equitable and it must be seen to be equitable. That is why I am pleased that the Prime Minister gave the assurance that ministers of the Crown and all the rest of us in this House would be kept within the general guidelines even though technically, because of some statutory arrangement, we might have been able to avoid the guidelines. This is very important.
The only other specific aspect of the program that I wish to refer to today is the duration, because in the course of
October 14, 1975

considering the bill we will be looking at the equity of the various proposals, some of which are concerning the leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Broadbent) and others of which are concerning some of my colleagues. We will have an opportunity, when the bill is before the House, to consider these specifics in detail.
I want to speak briefly today about the duration of the program, because member after member on the other side of the House, and minister after minister-including the Prime Minister-have kept on saying that even if mandatory price and income controls are accepted by the public, they will not get at the root cause of inflation; any benefit that they might achieve is of short-term duration. They have said this so often that they must say it in their sleep. I, personally, advocated short-term controls during 1973 and 1974, particularly during the election campaign, because I believed, in the circumstances which existed, that short-term, general controls on prices and incomes for a period of roughly 18 to 24 months could break the inflationary expectations that existed and could provide a framework which would enable us to fight inflation on a long-term basis, and a framework, also, within which we could continue to expand our economy and fight regional disparities.
I put it forward on this short-term basis. I emphasized at that time, as I have throughout most of my adult life, that I am opposed to long-term, comprehensive controls on prices and incomes because it is very clear this would lead to a different kind of economy than we have; that long-term controls would lead to a high degree of centralization of power and control in the hands of a few officials in Ottawa. That is not the kind of Canada I want to see, and I do not think it is the kind most Canadians want to see. I do not want to be a party to bringing it about. Yet the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and all the others who not only a year ago, but since then, ridiculed short-term controls and ridiculed this whole procedure as having, at best, very short-term benefits, are not putting before the House a program that goes beyond short-term controls. One would have to say these are controls of medium term, in terms of durability. It is nonsense for anybody to suggest these are different because they are voluntary. They are not voluntary; they are compulsory.
I hope that if the Prime Minister and the government persist in this "long-term" kind of talk, persist in seeking authority for these long-term controls of at least twice the duration of the sort of thing my party had in mind, they will at least be prepared to make provision for a parliamentary review of the controls and how they are working, providing an opportunity of parliamentary recall, say at the end of 18 months or two years. I just cannot understand how a Prime Minister and ministers who ridiculed the possible benefits of short-term controls, and exaggerated the dangers of those short-term controls, can now come before this House and, to use a very common and perhaps vulgar expression, have the gall to ask this parliament to delegate to a board and the governor in council these extensive powers lasting over a very substantial period of time.
Anti-Inflation
These are not voluntary controls. What is to be gained by the Prime Minister going on television and trying to have this thing both ways; trying to say, "We are acting. We are doing things firmly and, after all, it is only voluntary and we are only interfering with a few people"? That is an insult to the intelligence of Canadians.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: It is a bad start. This is essentially, in principle and in practice, the kind of program that the government said a year ago, and has been saying many times since then, would not work. The government said that kind of program would not work and had not worked anywhere; that it had been tried elsewhere but would not be accepted by Canadians. Let there be no doubt about it; this is exactly the kind of program the government said would never work anywhere and would not be accepted by Canadians.


Claude Wagner: That's Liberal morality.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Anyone who says this is a different kind of program should look at the questions and answers contained in the transcripts of 20 or 30 of my 1974 election news conferences.
I say to the government, do not persist in these silly games. Semantics designed to fit the square peg of infallibility into the round hole of reality will not get anyone anywhere. I say to the government, do not waste everybody's time and do not further try everybody's patience. The government won the election with means they must live with, but they will not win the present battle against Canada's tremendous economic problems with anything less than honesty with the Canadian people.
I will not be around here much longer in my present capacity to rub the government's nose in it, so why not play it straight and give this program a better chance of success than the government has given it by indulging in all this pretence? The government is under the duty to play it straight for a change. Just look at how the government allowed things to drift in the last 15 months since the election while it tried to stall off the inevitable, or at least buy time for a decent interval before swallowing itself. That precious time was unconscionably wasted and cannot be recovered.
Over the course of that time, things got more and more out of hand. A week before the resignation of the former minister of finance, the Bank of Canada announced a substantial increase, from 8.25 per cent to 9 per cent, in the bank rate. The Bank of Canada's actions are, of course, determined in the context of the general economic policies of this country's government. The Bank of Canada does not operate as a thing unto itself. I was dismayed by its action, particularly as a maritimer.
Speaking in the absence of any explanation by anyone in the cabinet, the governor of the Bank of Canada, Mr. Bouey, later addressed the annual meeting of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. What he said boiled down to three

October 14, 1975
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things: first, deepening inflation in Canada is a very critical problem and it is not being taken seriously enough; second, the Bank of Canada's duty is to safeguard the integrity of the Canadian dollar in a psychological climate where the value and stability of money itself is not trusted; third, the continuing drift must be halted and reversed at virtually any cost in terms of unemployment and hardship. He said we cannot have any realistic hope of achieving sustained economic growth in the long run unless we bring inflation under control. The governor's words and the Bank of Canada's actions constitute a clear condemnation of the inaction of the government for more than one year following the attainment of its mandate for leadership in the 1974 election; and it is not as if no one had warned the government that it had better take humane and sensible action much earlier.
Throughout 1973 and up to and through the 1974 election campaign, we stressed that a priority objective of the program we were proposing was the encouragement of growth and the improvement of employment prospects in the country. As I said earlier in the context of suggesting a program to fight inflation, that could have been accomplished if the government had had the guts and heart to seize its responsibilities in 1974. We said that productivity and jobs could be pursued in a climate of stability if quick and comprehensive action was taken. We said that with conditions as they were, a move to achieve stability and maintain orderly growth was worth the price of a temporary intervention program. But now, Madam Speaker, in the autumn of 1975, we face the worst of both worlds- widespread and prolonged intervention and another massive economic slowdown.
It is said that justice delayed is justice denied. The acceptance of responsibility too long delayed has led to irresponsibility through default. The government diddled and dawdled along and let things get so far out of hand that we are mired where we are today. The Minister of Finance need not try to persuade me that this country's economic conditions require action by this government. I do not know who he thinks he is talking about when he speaks of people who think conditions in this country look pretty good. He must be far up some ivory tower. The less prosperous parts of our country are in for another pounding. Small business will again be hit most severely. The new Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Jamieson) knows that as well as I do. He knows, as I do, the disastrous effects of harsh monetary policy on his part of the country and mine. The Atlantic provinces have been through all this before, as have other areas of slow growth of this country. They are the first to feel the effects and the last to recover from the damage, damage which offsets federal help through DREE assistance.
If the government wants co-operation in its effort, let it deal frankly and with some humility with this aspect of its economic policy. The word "voluntary" is meaningless in this context. What is voluntary about a small businessman's reaction to sky-high interest rates? He either pays them and stays afloat a little longer, or he does not pay them and goes under right away. Let us not have any more weasel-words from the other side of the House. Let us have
a frank admission from the Prime Minister about the government's contribution to our problems. Since 1968, his government has been a major force in both eroding the value of the Canadian dollar and raising the cost of borrowing. The Prime Minister talks about people demanding too much from the economy Let him take a good look at what his government has demanded from our economy, and let him tell the House why he chose to make campaign promises last year worth between $3 billion and $4 billion. What does he think about that now?
The government's approach to restraint in its June budget was another outright sham-transparently so. Not many were prepared to take it as a serious demonstration of leadership by example. That is the record to date. That is the pattern which the government has shown the country, with the Prime Minister occasionally popping up on television at some dramatic moment. This is the record and this is the pattern. This is what the Prime Minister and his government have to overcome if they are to have any chance at all of making a go of what they have announced.
My party is in the position, today, of extending support to the general intentions of this program as expressed in the white paper before us. Quite simply, common sense and the welfare of the country demand that we do. We do not at this time go beyond that. Any support for the actions of the government in the days ahead will have to be earned, and judgments on that score will be governed by the factors I have outlined.
I am pleased to be able to say, without immodesty, Madam Speaker, that my party has honestly tried to fulfil its own obligation to Canadians. We have dealt frankly and openly with the country and we will continue to do so. Whatever this may have cost us politically would not begin to measure up to the cost to our country if, from this point forward, the government fails to do so.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!



PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION


The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Morin):: Order, please. It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 40, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe (Mr. Marshall)-Housing-Possibility of extending rehabilitation program and increasing funds available; the hon. member for Edmonton-Strath-cona (Mr. Roche)-Transport-Urban transportation assistance program-Definition of words "commuter system".
[Mr. Stanfield.1
October 14, 1975



ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):
That this House do now adjourn.
John Edward Broadbent: Madam Speaker, before I deal directly with the subject matter for debate this afternoon, I wish to join the colleagues of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stanfield) in expressing my personal admiration for the very exceptional job the leader of the Conservative party did for his party on the question of intellectual, moral and political integrity in the 1974 election campaign.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: I am sincere when I say that there are times in politics when losers contribute much more to the image of a politician than do winners.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: Although we had very serious disagreements with the policy of wage and price controls that were argued for at the time of the 1974 election campaign by the leader of the Conservative party, as indeed did many of his supporters, I have been told on good authority-perhaps this is not known-that during the early stages of that campaign some Conservative members had done a survey and found out that the issue was not popular. There was real concern that perhaps they should shift ground and abandon the policy in mid-campaign. Certain political parties in this country, and certain political leaders, would not be above doing precisely that.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: I am told that the immediate, serious and sober response to that suggestion by the Conservative party's leader was that he would have none of it; that he was committed to the program, he believed in it and would stick with it. That kind of political leadership is something that democratic societies frequently lack. It is something to which his colleagues were paying tribute today, and I join them in that tribute.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: Turning more directly to the subject at hand, the opposite kind of attitude has been conveyed by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau). In 1974, the Prime Minister went to the people of Canada with a whole series of promises. He did not do that in 1968. At that time he had a sort of playboy image, the politician who liked to smile and dance. That was such a bizarre experience for Canadians that they voted for him in very substantial numbers. In 1972, he campaigned as a philosopher king. He did not want to talk about such mundane matters as housing, the cost of living and unemployment. He was almost defeated. Perhaps he and his government should have been defeated in 1972.
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Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Why did you support us for a year and a half, then?


John Edward Broadbent: Yes, that is what we did, and it was a good thing.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: In 1974, he went to the country with a good program, a program which very many people took seriously; the people seriously believed in it. He made categorical promises for the first time. He said we could expect a new urban policy involving financial assistance of various kinds, including funds for rapid transit development. He promised a new transportation policy which would redress the legitimate grievances of western Canadians with regard to freight rates. He undertook to deal with the freight rate structure and give Canada an over-all transportation policy. Nothing whatever has been done about that, either.
Then, again, just before the election he admitted in Vancouver that there was a housing crisis-those were his words-and led us to believe that something would be done about it. But nothing has been done. He told us during the 1974 campaign that he was concerned about the degree of foreign ownership and he made a commitment that 50 per cent of investment in the resource sector from that time on would be Canadian. As we saw when we got part II of the foreign investment review legislation at the end of the summer, that idea also went out of the window. Virtually every policy he had been talking about

urban policy, transportation, housing, foreign ownership-all the great promises of the 1974 campaign have been cynically dismissed.
The Liberals, above all, claim they can give the country economic leadership. This was the basis upon which they challenged the Conservative party. They were critical of the proposal of prices and incomes control put forward by the Leader of the Opposition. It is true that we shared in that criticism. But the main contention of the Prime Minister and his colleagues was that they alone could really manage the Canadian economy. However, what has happened in terms of economic leadership generally?
Bear in mind that we in Canada enjoy many advantages which are not common to all industrial countries. We have important natural resources at our disposal, unlike a number of western industrialized countries. We possess sufficient sources of energy to supply our industrial machine. We are able to call upon a well educated and well trained labour force. In short, we enjoy advantages which would have enabled us to make a real impact in terms of economic recovery in the last year and a half if only we had had a government willing to show economic leadership. But we have not had such a government. In the 18 months since the election, unemployment has risen; it has not gone down. The cost of living has gone up, not down as the Prime Minister promised; it has been increasing at the rate of 11 per cent. Housing starts have consistently declined. Mortgage interest rates have consistently gone up, not down as they should.
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October 14, 1975
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In terms of economic growth, the last six quarters in the period since the election have shown negative results, stagnation in every quarter of the six except one, and in that quarter I believe the growth rate was one-quarter of one per cent. That is the measure of economic leadership which members opposite have provided. That is what the management team on the other side-that gifted group, as they like to think of themselves as being-managed to do with the best trained labour force and the best situation when it comes to natural resources that one could imagine.
As to the speech which the new Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) read a short while ago, it might just as easily have been read by his successor. I do not blame the hon. gentleman directly; his speechwriters prepared the text. The point is that when it speaks of the government's economic performance, it still does so in self-congratulatory terms. Instead of coming here and saying, "We have made serious mistakes; various things have gone wrong; certain policies did not turn out to be the right ones, and we therefore intend to change things," the Liberals never admit they do anything wrong. They say, "We are still doing better than anybody else, but for some peculiar reason, despite how well we have done, we are now going to turn through 180 degrees."


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


John Edward Broadbent: Turning to the program which has been put forward today, I intend to deal with it in terms of five specific criticisms. I wish to make it clear, though, that our party does not accept the view that the most acute economic problem we have to deal with now is inflation. We agree that inflation is a matter of very serious concern and that it has to be dealt with, but we are very disturbed to see a white paper presented to us today which has been described as merely an attack on inflation rather than as a package intended to deal with both inflation and unemployment.
After all, this is a country with one of the highest levels of persistent unemployment in the industrialized world- over 700,000 of our people are currently out of work-and it should surely be the concern of the government to deal with unemployment as well as inflation. So, while I intend to concentrate my criticism on the anti-inflation program, let me say that we in our party do not in any way agree with the government that the overwhelming attention it is directing to the issue of inflation is the proper position to have taken.
First, I want to deal with the proposal for price control which the government has introduced. There is a claim that the procedure to be followed will, in itself, be sufficient for full control over prices to be realized. In the view of our party, this is simply not the case. I intend to outline the way in which the government proposes to operate, if I understand its intentions correctly, and then go on to suggest reasons why we do not feel its proposals will work.
We are told that firms able to allocate costs to individual products will, in principle, be required to maintain a constant per unit profit level in dollar terms. Firms which are unable to allocate costs to individual products will be assessed on a total profit basis; they will, in principle, be required to hold down their percentage pre-tax net profit
[Mr. Broadbent.1
margin to a level no greater than 95 per cent of the last five-year average.
For firms engaged in distribution at the retail and wholesale levels, the profit guideline is based on gross profit margins-profit as a percentage of sales. Let us not be misled by the rather technical language which is being used here. In our view, this is not enforceable as a price control mechanism, whatever side benefits it might have. First of all, if these guidelines are to be enforced in any effective way, an army of bureaucrats will be required far in excess of the resources which the government is apparently willing to commit to this exercise. We are not in favour of hiring a lot of bureaucrats, but we say that if you are going to enforce this kind of proposal you must hire many more people than the 500 which is the figure I have heard used in respect of the number the government plans to hire, or otherwise you will not have the people to do the checking.
Secondly, in our view the companies concerned will have virtually unlimited opportunities to use their high-priced accountants and clever corporation lawyers to manipulate their books and pad their costs in ways which will allow them to circumvent the intent of the guidelines. This is a crucial point. In this sense I do not question the honesty of the corporations. I am saying that if you have a law which depends for its enforcement on the determination of certain profit levels and it is to the advantage of a corporation to see profit levels in a different way, you can be sure it will look for every conceivable and legal way of getting around these guidelines by redefining its profits.
We in this party are convinced that the experience of other countries would indicate that not only have corporations been able to get around such mechanisms, there, but we can fully expect them to do so here.
Thirdly, the government makes it clear that retailers and wholesalers will be permitted to raise prices of individual products without hinderances, subject only to the condition that should the board decide some day to make an inquiry into their operations, the particular retailer or wholesaler involved would only have to demonstrate that its total profits were within the guidelines.
Firms are expected to refrain from increasing the price of a product more frequently than once every three months, except where this would impose a hardship on the firm, in addition to which, and I quote from page 17 of the white paper, "Retailers and wholesalers will be exempt from this requirement". They are not going to be required to abide by the general rule, which is a crucial one, in terms of enforcement of price control mechanisms of this kind.
Fourthly, the white paper says that firms will be allowed to exceed the profit guidelines if the excess profit results from "unusual productivity gains resulting from the efforts of the firm, or of favourable cost developments". That is found on page 19 of the white paper.
What does that mean? That refers to any kind of innovative technique for increasing profit-making capacity
October 14, 1975

which, during the productive stage of an activity, will enable the firm to get whatever profits it can, or attain whatever level of profit the market will bear. If the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) thinks I am wrong in that statement I would like him to correct me. That certainly is my interpretation of it. As long as this condition is met the profits of a company are unlimited, and if profits are unlimited then we do not have effective price controls through a profit control mechanism because profit control goes right out the window.
For those four reasons, briefly stated, and I am not going to labour them for rhetorical or for any other purposes, we hope the Minister of Finance during the question period, or another minister when makin j a speech during the debate, will deal with them. We simply believe that the guidelines will be totally ineffective whatever the government's good intentions might be. I am prepared to admit that we must take the legislation at its face value and assume the government is serious about it. Whatever the government's intention, there is not going to be effective price control through the profit control mechanism.
I want to deal with the efficacy of the board set up to enforce the provisions, particularly in view of the announcement today that the Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin and Beryl Plumptre have been appointed to key positions.
Let me say at the outset that Jean-Luc Pepin, when he was a member of this House, was a man who in personal terms I enjoyed and admired greatly. I want to add immediately that in terms of his own policy and political orientation he is precisely the kind of man who should not be given the job he has been handed. What has he done since he left the government? He is now a senior officer in the Power Corporation. He has been very much involved in developing a trading business for Canada. This is laudable, and I am not questioning his business objective or his intention there. There is nothing wrong with that if that is the kind of goal you want to pursue. What is wrong is to put him in charge of this kind of an agency which is intended to protect the consumer, because he is a man whose whole orientation has been on the other side of the ledger. This is analagous, no more and no less, to putting-


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: A fox with-


John Edward Broadbent: I was going to use a different analogy, but the Prime Minister has given an entirely appropriate one. It is analogous to putting a fox in with the chickens. Perhaps now that he recognizes that point he will reconsider this appointment.
As for Beryl Plumptre-well, dear old Beryl, ever since she has headed the Prices Review Board, has been struggling vigorously and consistently with infinite determination to find a case of excess profits. For some strange reason she has never succeeded. With all the investigations she has conducted on behalf of the Food Prices Review Board she has never found one case of excess profits. So Canadians can really rest assured knowing that Jean-Luc Pepin and Beryl Plumptre are in charge! They can go to sleep at night with total confidence that when they get up in the morning prices will be just and corporations will be sitting back taking lower profits, and the ship of state is in good hands. Well, I do not think so, Madam Speaker. I do
Anti-Inflation
not think the appointments were appropriate. I think they are such that they will encourage Canadians to view with little optimism the efficacy of a board being set up to administer and apply regulations which, as I have already said, on their own are shaky indeed.
Therefore I conclude on behalf of my party that the prices control mechanism in this set of proposals is a sham or a hoax, and whatever its purpose or its intent the result will not be price control.
The one element of the package we do think will be effective is the salary and wage control proposal. It may not surprise some people that this accounts for the fact that every businessman I saw interviewed about the proposals seemed to think they were good. This might have something to do with the fact that they now know their employees' wages will be effectively controlled. These controls will affect the hourly-rated employee and the person on a weekly salary basis who has none of the special opportunities of other people, and I will come to this in a moment, to get around the controls. They will have their wages restricted. There is no question but that on the one hand the prices control mechanism will be ineffective and on the other hand the wage and salary control mechanism will be totally effective.
I suspect this is what the Minister of Finance had in mind when he said in a loose moment to members of the press that when he saw the proposals he found them frightening. I assume he was speaking on behalf of the average worker in Canada at that time. These proposals will not be frightening, and I say this quite seriously, to most professional people.
Whatever the government tries to do in terms of law, and I am sure it will try to plug the loopholes, it has set the guidelines to apply to the fees of the professional people and not to their incomes, and this is on the theory that it does not want to discourage the initiative to work. So, if one worked longer hours one would receive more pay. I agree with that. It should apply to the fees and not to the income.
The point I want to make is that no matter how you come down with emphasis, it will not be operational for the upper income professional people because they can get around it. This would involve most lawyers. There are a few honest lawyers in this country. My colleague wants me to name them. I shall not do that. As we know, most lawyers work on sort of a percentage basis for business clients. They vary their fee according to the particular amount of money involved in a project. How will the incomes of those lawyers be controlled? They will not be in the same position as the auto worker, the bus driver, or the secretary. The lawyer will get around it. If an architect should have a particularly complex project then he makes a judgment. Without questioning his honesty I suggest he says it is more complex than another project, and up goes his fee. That will not be challenged.
Virtually all professionals working in the private sector will be able to get around these controls. This means that unfairness is built right into this program at the outset.
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October 14, 1975
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Apart from that type of unfairness we have the figures selected by the minister of $600 and $2,400. Already I have had calls from people who expect to receive the $600 and who believe it somehow is guaranteed. Of course that is not the case. A misunderstanding exists in that regard. This is a maximum figure in respect of those on low incomes. The most one may receive if he should be on the minimum wage scale would be an increase of $600 under the guidelines.


An hon. Member:: No.


John Edward Broadbent: If I have misinterpreted this then I hope the error will be pointed out, now or later. However, as I understand it, the 10 per cent means that if one's income is $6,000 the most such a person could receive would be 10 per cent of that, which is $600. I do not know where the error is. The Prime Minister was shaking his head. I will look to him to correct this later.
Because most low-income people are not in trade unions and do not have a strong bargaining agency not only are they unlikely to get the $600 but, on the contrary, virtually 90 per cent of them will not come near it because there is no mechanism to ensure that they will receive that money. Did the government at least bring in a minimum program for these people to make sure they receive this? No. Did it change its federal minimum income wage law upwards somewhat so that these people would receive it? No. It said to the poor people of Canada who are at the bottom end of the scale in terms of income and who do not have a trade union, "too bad". That is what will happen in their case. They will not get the $600. The point we make on that issue is that it should have been made very clear to Canadians that they will not receive this as a right, and that most likely those down at that end of the scale will not receive it at all.
The second point we make in that connection is that the $600 level should be raised. Surely the $600 figure is too low. It is at the bottom end of the scale. How high it should be raised is a question on which I do not presume to give a definitive answer, but it must be substantially above that $600 level. The range is too great in terms of the $600 and the $2,400. The bottom amount simply is too low for people in Canada already living at the poverty level where they will remain in the years ahead.
The third point I make is that pensioners in Canada are not getting anything. One would have thought that a program dealing with inflation would deal with that category of people who are out of the labour market, who are not able to cope and who are dependent now, as has been mentioned, on an indexed pension. That is the situation for most pensioners in Canada unless they live in a province such as British Columbia or a couple of others, not necessarily provinces with NDP governments, which have taken additional steps to bring their incomes up above the poverty level. The point is that even with the indexed pension the level is still too low.
If the government wanted to deal with one category of person requiring some additional outlay of capital now,
(Mr. Broadbent.]
surely it should have been the pensioner, but there is nothing at all in this program for pensioners.
Then there is the matter of housing. If one thinks of the inflation which has been troubling Canadians in a serious way in the last couple of years, housing is one of the main issues. Surely the government should have done something on the supply side in a very significant proportion, to deal with the housing situation. It brought forward the idea at the federal level of rent control, which we have argued for and which we support in that part of the program. However, I say that unless the rent control program is complemented in the most serious way by a program to increase the supply of housing very significantly in the next year or two, it in itself would simply lead to horrendous headaches in a short period of time. You cannot have one without the other. If you have rent control, you must also have an imaginative and expansionary program to increase the supply of housing. There is nothing in the white paper to indicate this.
There is in the white paper a reference to some changes in the housing legislation but I suggest, given the record of this government which has not been reticent about patting itself on the back in the past inappropriately, that if we are to see a significant departure in respect of the housing program we would have seen those words in the white paper. One would have seen that there is to be a new major housing thrust or significant development, but that is not there. All that is indicated is that there will be some modification in the housing legislation. That, for our party, will not do. In our view there must be on the part of the federal government a major commitment to move in the housing sector with significant sums of money to increase supply so that the cost of housing can be brought down.
Those are the principal reasons why our party opposes this specific set of proposals. Some of my colleagues will be giving additional points. I have tried to indicate the principal ones. To sum up, in our judgment there is unfairness on the one hand and there is unworkability on the other hand. We say that the package which has been brought in to deal with inflation is deficient in terms both of what it prescribes and what it lacks, particularly in relation to housing, pensioners, and low income Canadians.
I wish to turn now to the reasons why the government feels it must bring this kind of program before the people of Canada at this time. The white paper, the former Minister of Finance, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Jamieson), and the Prime Minister himself have referred to two issues. One is the wage-push factor in inflation and the other is the problem as they perceive it of our pricing ourselves out of competitive markets. The New Democratic Party takes both these points seriously. If they could be demonstrated, then the government's intention to base remedies on these particular ills would be entirely appropriate. What I want to argue is that in fact they do not have the foundation that the government claims they have, that we do not have inflation in Canada which is due to high wage demands, and that we do not have in Canada a serious threat to our competitive position in terms of world trade because of such wage demands and wage increases.
October 14, 1975

In my view there is no economist, respectable or otherwise, in Canada who has demonstrated a cause and effect relationship between our wages and our inflation. Many workers in Canada, trapped by two and three year contracts, have been merely attempting to make up the ground they lost due to past inflation. In the last three years, from mid June 1972 to mid June 1975, the consumer price index rose by 33 per cent. During the same period of time wages rose by 36 per cent, or only 1 per cent more a year. Given increases in Canadian labour productivity I would argue that the Canadian worker has in fact got less than he deserves, not more. Certainly I would argue that he has not caused the inflation that was going on in the Canadian economy; he was responding to it.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Edward Broadbent: I am pleased to add to my support a person whom I and the socialist party would not normally be citing, that is, Gerald Bouey, Governor of the Bank of Canada, who made a speech about a week ago in Saskatoon in which he made essentially the same point. I think it is very important to get through to the people in our country who now are beginning to see ordinary working Canadians as being the principal cause of our economic problems that that is not the case. The Governor of the Bank of Canada himself said that wage demands in recent years have followed price increases, that workers have not been causing the increases, that they have been responding to them; in short, they have been responding to the mismanagement of the Canadian economy.
What about the trade situation? Again we have heard a number of politicians, editorial writers and businessmen complain about Canadian wage settlements. What are the facts? First of all, a recent study by Nathan Bossen of the Montreal brokerage firm of Brault, Guy, O'Brien, Inc.-not a well known socialist establishment-using figures from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, concluded that Canadian unit labour costs from 1970 to the beginning of 1975 have escalated at a lower rate than those of any of our major trading partners with the exception of the United States. In Bossen's view:
Canadian unit costs have not risen at such a rate as to cause concern for our competitive position.
In any event, relative labour cost increases seem to have little bearing on trade performance; real demand for a country's export products is more important. This is particularly true when the principal exports are raw materials, as is the case with Canada. It does not matter in any significant degree what the labour costs are in terms of our major exports. But I repeat the point: even if, as is the case in certain sectors, labour costs are a concern, our competitive situation has been improving, not getting worse, and I will provide some more information on that.
The 7 per cent decline in exports over the past year is due to an international recession and not to the loss of our ability to compete. The United States is our largest customer, and when the United States is suffering a recession Canadian exports will also decline because demand in the United States has dropped. Furthermore, recent import-export statistics refute those who have been saying that
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high wage settlements in Canada are pricing our exports out of other markets than the United States. Exports of Canadian finished products with a relatively high labour component have increased in value by 8 per cent in the first six months of this year; all exports, including raw materials, rose only 5 per cent. So the increase in our exports has been going up higher in those sectors than in all exports as a whole.
If trade in automotive goods to the United States is excluded from the figures, the performance of the manufactured goods sector looks even better, with exports up during this period by some 13 per cent. Trade indices also show that between January, 1974, and the end of March, 1975, prices of Canadian exports rose by an average of 27 per cent while import prices increased by 42 per cent. This means that our relative competitive position in terms of prices in world trade has improved, not worsened.
I defy the new Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce, when he contributes to this debate, as I hope he will, to present some supporting evidence for the case that his predecessor has made, namely, that we are pricing ourselves out of world markets.
I notice, Madam Speaker, that you are rising to your feet, so perhaps I will call it six o'clock.


The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Morin):: Before adjourning for dinner I would like to advise the hon. member for Oshawa-Whitby (Mr. Broadbent) that his time has now expired.
It being six o'clock I do leave the chair until eight o'clock this evening.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The House resumed at 8 p.m.
Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: Mr. Speaker, if this were the day before Christmas we would say: In the silence of the night, let us all reflect on the future of our country. But since this is October 14, 1975, let us all reflect on the economy of our country.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to use seriously the few minutes allotted to me to express the views and the wishes of the voters of the constituency of Bellechasse that I proudly represent, and also to express the thought of, I believe, all Canadians who are concerned about the future of Canada so that the economy of our country may serve all Canadian citizens and that we may serve our country as Canadians.
When, a few years ago, President Kennedy fell under the bullets of an assassin, these words of his were recalled on several occasions: We must not ask what this country can do for us, Americans, but rather what we, as American citizens, can do for our country. Mr. Speaker, these words should apply in 1975. We should ask ourselves very seriously: What have we done for our country? What has Canada done for each one of us? What does the future hold for us

October 14, 1975
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as a nation? What does Canada hold for each one of us in the future? What must each one of us do to ensure the future, the greatness and the development of our country? October 14, 1975 is a memorable day in the history of our country.
We can have fun and amuse ourselves, go to the movies or to the theatre, we can act irresponsibly if we wish, but it still remains, Mr. Speaker, that a serious decision must be made in our country on this day, October 14. We must make this decision together, you, Mr. Speaker, each one of my colleagues of the House of Commons, and this parliament, we must seriously ask ourselves what the population is thinking tonight at 8:10 about the Canadian parliament, and it is wondering how we shall determine the future of every Canadian and of our economy.
Mr. Speaker, as I keep constantly in touch with my constituents, my fellow countrymen, I can tell you that these people are now worried. The fathers, mothers and heads of families are concerned about the future of their children. They are wondering what is in store for tomorrow.
What do the children we have brought into the world, we have raised and given the best training we could, the best education possible at every level, think of us today and what will happen to them tomorrow?
Mr. Speaker, some authorities are also wondering, the municipal authorities which are closer to the people, which assume the greatest responsibilities towards the individuals and families are now wondering how they will manage to provide the services to which the families and the individuals are entitled.
Recently a convention of the Canadian Federation of Municipalities was held. Through its most authoritative spokesmen, its president and its executive secretary in turn expressed their concern to the people, the federal and provincial authorities, having to meet their obligations and provide essential services to the people.
Recently, we have also witnessed a congress of mayors of municipalities. I feel quite at ease in speaking of municipal affairs because I have been directly involved in them for over 30 years. I think I know pretty well the thinking of mayors, secretary-treasurers, aldermen of cities and towns, and rural municipality counsellors. I believe I can feel the pulse of the situation.
All these people during these congresses, and in particular, the congress of mayors and municipalities, were concerned by a terrible situation.
People across the country are asking municipal authorities essential services, such as sewers, aqueducts, housing, but such services at prices and conditions they can afford.
About a week ago, I saw the mayor of the city of Quebec say to the people on television that if the provinces cannot adequately meet the requirements and demands of municipalities the latter would have to turn to Ottawa, and Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, it is you, Ottawa, it is all the members of Parliament, it is the right hon. Prime Minister, all the ministers of the various Canadian government departments.
While we have heard many times during the last 20 years that the autonomy of municipalities is something sacred like that of provinces, since the provincial governments are unable to meet their financial requirements adequately, the municipalities are now pondering their problems. I take to witness the mayor of Quebec City who a week ago stated: If the provinces are unable to help us, we shall have to turn to Ottawa. Ottawa, it is you Mr. Speaker and all of us now in session to examine very seriously the problems facing us.
The municipal government is the one that is closest to the people, that can best understand the needs of individuals and families and normally it should be in a position to answer adequately the legitimate requirements of individuals and families. But we know that municipalities are now in a desperate financial situation. Reading the newspapers is enough to convince us that those situations are desperate in Canada. If we take a look at the United States, we realize that New York City, Boston and other big American cities are at the brink of bankruptcy. What does it mean, Mr. Speaker, to be on the verge of bankruptcy? It is to have expenses in excess of the potential income a given community would need to meet its normal financial obligations. In the meantime, we as Canadians, as Quebecers, as the Quebec government, we crawl in front of New York financiers begging for help. When they are not even able to meet their obligations, we ask them to lend us money to survive at home, to survive as a province, to survive as a country, to survive as municipalities.
Mr. Speaker, this clearly demonstrates that the problem we confront today as Canadian parliamentarians boils down to two things: inflation and unemployment, which are both financial problems. These days a lot is being said about inflation. But great care is taken not to define inflation. Reporters, newspapers, television and radio do not co-operate very much with you, Mr. Speaker, and with hon. members to enlighten the Canadian public as to what inflation really is. As for me I am not smart but I know that I am not smart. There is something which is great, it is to be aware of it. And I can always go to the people who are more learned than I am. Larousse is a dictionary which defines all the words in the French language and which tells you what each and every one of them means. That is why, not being smart tonight I opened my Larousse dictionary. And I have tried to find out what inflation means. So here is what one can read in the Larousse dictionary, on page 543. Let us listen well, Mr. Speaker. I may not be very bright but surely Larousse knows what it is all about. I quote:
Inflation: Desequilibre economique earacterise par une hausse generale des prix, et qui provient de l'exces de pouvoir d'achat de la masse des consommateurs (particuliers, entreprises ...) . .. et des services mis a leur disposition.
So, this means that there is an increase, an excess of purchasing power in relation to services offered to people and goods available to them. That is what inflation means.
As members of Parliaments, we have to ask ourselves
very seriously, not facetiously, but as responsible people, if
there is really inflation in Canada. Is there an excess of
[Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse). J
October 14, 1975

services offered to people, is there an excess of potatoes, tomatoes, pork, milk, butter, cheese?
If I had the time to do so, Mr. Speaker, I would pick out of our own Hansard answers which prove that in the last few months we did import cheese from New Zealand, Australia, the United States, Holland and Belgium, and that we also imported beef from those various countries. Therefore, was there really a surplus of those farm produce, considering the demands of the consumer, the needs of the Canadian consumers? That is what the Larousse dictionary says: excessive purchasing power, too much money to buy the goods that are lacking.
And at the same time, Mr. Speaker, the producers of Canadian cheese and butter are told: Reduce your production; quotas will be imposed upon you; you will be forced to produce according to a specific quota system, to avoid surplus production exceeding the purchasing power of Canadians.
Do you know, Mr. Speaker, what is happening at the same time? While poultry producers are told to reduce their production, are asked to accept quotas, the same organizations tell the Americans to come and sell in Quebec, in Canada, their surplus poultry, their surplus eggs, that we will accept them here; that is what causes the imbalance, that is what explains the fact that our producers of beef, pork, poultry and eggs, do not know where they stand, and which way to go; their situation is hopeless; they can no longer get for their work, their production, the income needed to live decently. This is happening in Canada, before the eyes of all parliamentarians, myself included, and we look on passively. Then the Prime Minister, on the eve of two by-elections, appears on television, as the leader of the Canadian government and of a political party called the Liberal party, and sets forth to the Canadian people solutions to our problems of inflation and unemployment. He tells them: Boys, there is only one answer, tighten your belts. I have a belt too and if I tighten it, I will choke eventually. Now, tighten your belts.
What does he mean by tightening our belts? It is to go without the things one needs to meet one's personal needs. That is to tighten one's belt. Is the solution proposed in the white paper a good solution? The Canadian Parliament must decide on this this week. Is it really the answer to the economic problems, to the problems of inflation and unemployment in our country? Is it the answer? What is unemployment? Since I am not smart, I consult those who are more learned. What does unemployment mean? On page 206, Larousse says: Period of inactivity for a worker, for an industry. We knew that also. To be unemployed means being out of work, that is what we must remember, Mr. Speaker. To be unemployed means being out of work. I would like to look fully into that question. I heard last night on television the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) say to the Canadian people that our gross national product must increase if we are to deal with the problems of inflation and unemployment. I may not be very knowledgeable about those things, but I am at my wits' end to understand what he meant by that.
Mr. Speaker, quite seriously, I will speak about the
budget of the former Minister of Finance, the hon. member
Anti-Inflation
for Ottawa-Carleton (Mr. Turner), which was brought down on June 23, 1975. I was sitting in my place, he was in his, and the others were in theirs. We were waiting, holding our breath, for the solutions to our economic problems. Nobody, Mr. Speaker, is happy with adverse conditions in Canada, nobody is happy about that, regardless of one's party. We want Canada to have a really prosperous economy which would enable fathers, mothers, boys and girls who have been educated at the cost of hundreds of dollars-I know it from experience-after obtaining their diploma and acquiring experience in their chosen field to serve the Canadian community and the country, thanks to that diploma and that profession which make them efficient producers of either services or goods in a given line.
I think it is only good common sense that leads us to expect from our children, from the coming generation to produce things to meet the needs of the population as a whole. We know what is going on, Mr. Speaker. We have now more than 600,000 qualified people, graduates who hold diplomas or trade certificates and could be productive, but they are unfortunately out of work. It was said earlier what unemployment is. It is to be unproductive. People are prevented from using their talents to produce something in order to meet their needs or those of the community.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in the budget of 1975-76, I think some thought should be given to that. I apologize for speaking up but I am shocked, you understand, Mr. Speaker, I am shocked to see that we are going to spend- responsible people like the Postmaster General (Mr. Mack-asey), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald), the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau), and all cabinet members, responsible people-that we are to spend in 1975-76 nearly $4 billion to support unproductive people, to pay benefits to people who willy-nilly are unemployed, idle. Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, they try to make the public believe the unemployment problem can be solved, that jobs can be created and that the $150 million earmarked for local initiative programs will generate employment throughout Canada.
A sixth grade school boy, Mr. Speaker, can do better than spending $150 million to motivate people to work, to do something to increase the gross national product in this country, to meet our obligations, to curb the curse of inflation so as to provide Canadians with an ever increasing number of goods and services and lick this serious problem of inflation.
Mr. Speaker, I have read very carefully, and when I say very carefully I mean very earnestly because at my age one is not interested in jesting any more. When one has family commitments such as I have at present, such as I have had in the past, a lot of things become less important if considered intrinsically. They belong to the past. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I believe we should very seriously consider the solutions which are proposed in the white paper. "White paper" is a beautiful expression. What is white is supposed to be pure, but in the final analysis, as once said the former President of France, the late General de Gaulle whose name I proudly utter, regardless of the mistakes he

October 14. 1975
Anti-Inflation
may have made-at least words I did not mean should not be put in my mouth-at least he gave mankind the very profound thought that one should always get to the bottom of things. Whatever the matter, Mr. Speaker, our responsibility is to get to the root of it to find out about the formula that is proposed to us, the valid solution to our problems. Is the white paper presented to us today the right formula to solve inflation and unemployment? I ask the question, dear fellow members of Parliament. Let us try to think about it seriously. I know that as a member of a small political party, opponents take pleasure in telling us we are a small political party. Mr. Speaker, in a family of any size, when the little one tells the authorities: It is raining this morning, even if the authorities say that the sun is shining, if it is really raining, the little one is right. That is the way it is in Parliament.
In Parliament, Mr. Speaker, we sincerely declare that the formulas proposed by the economists until now are not valid. The right hon. Prime Minister of my country that I respect whole heartedly has been misinformed by the economists. The Cabinet of my country whatever the colour of the governing party has been misinformed by the economists of our country: they say first one thing and then another. Some say: Let us try this formula and if it does not work, we shall try another one. In the meantime, Canadians are the ones who pay.
Mr. Speaker, we are in a really desperate economic situation. Canada has got into debt and I bring your attention to this: From 1867 to 1967, our debt has gradually reached $30 billion. It has taken a hundred years to accumulate a debt of $30 billion. You can check, Mr. Speaker. It was the official answer of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Turner) as reported in Hansard this year. The debt of our country that amounted to $30 billion as of July 1, 1967 has reached $58 billion as of July 1, 1974. By now I would not be surprised if our national debt has reached $60 billion.
Mr. Speaker, this is the essence of my remarks for tonight. I took a roundabout way to demonstrate to my colleagues that the main cause of inflation is the financial system in which we live, that no longer meets our needs in 1975 and contributes to raise the cost of living because of interest rates which go up every month.
Mr. Speaker, as I speak to you and every morning the sun rises Canadians in this country must make sacrifices, pay $10 million in interests on the national debt, and I challenge any member in this House to prove otherwise because those are official figures released by Statistics Canada.
Mr. Speaker, the way things are going, we are moving toward an even more catastrophic situation. So what does a small party like the Social Credit Party of Canada suggest? Mr. Speaker, you seem to say, just a few members. I can tell you that in this little party we are serious, we love our country as much as any other member of this House. We want our country to be prosperous and we also want every member of this country, whatever the wealth of the family to which they belong, we want every Canadian to be able to share the benefits of the sacrifices and
efforts of past generations. We are disgusted, Mr. Speaker, when we see that this parliament, this government, has helped bring about such a disastrous situation.
Mr. Speaker, a week ago the President of the Treasury Board (Mr. Chretien) ask the people of Canada, to tighten their belt, to be reasonable in your claims. I fully agree with him but he forgot, for example, that the day before, Canadian bankers enjoyed an increase of 1 per cent in the interest rate. Did you think of what that represents for the whole of Canada, an increase of 1 per cent on all loans made not only in the public sector but also the private sector?
Mr. Speaker, in the present situation in which we live the federal and provincial governments are private industry's main competitors. My dear friends, it is an excellent formula which enables a country to develop, because private enterprise allows the individual and the enterprise to give the best of themselves, to use their abilities and their resources to the fullest and thus not only the individual, but his family as well as his community may derive some benefit.
Mr. Speaker, I am quite sincere when I say that we have a golden opportunity to change our economic system.
Our Prime Minister, whom I respect and to whom I listened on television last night, did not give us any magic formula, but he called upon the goodwill of the individuals as I do tonight to use another formula. The Prime Minister did not suggest any new approach. What is preventing us from trying something new since we are at our lowest ebb and quite unable up to now to try such an experiment. What is that new experiment? It consists in the use by the Canadian government, backed by Parliament which is the supreme authority in our country, in the use, as I said, of the Bank of Canada. Some people think it is funny. You see those green Liberal members making faces and becoming exhilarated whenever Social Credit members suggest a better way of making use of that bank which belongs to the Canadian people as a means of creating credit, as a means of turning the dedication of each and everyone of us into money, as a means of having that dedication turned out into dollars and benefit Canadian citizens as a whole. We therefore introduced an amendment to the Bank of Canada Act so that this Bank which was created by Liberals-Why not at least try to trust your own party.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The time allowed the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Lambert) has expired. However, he seems about to conclude within a few seconds. Does the House agree to allow him a minute or two to complete his speech?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: My God, how pleased I am, Mr. Speaker, to hear the Chair ask my colleagues in the House to let the member for Bellechasse complete his speech. I will not abuse this privilege, believe me! My feelings are well known. It is therefore common experience that during the eight or ten years I have sat as a member of this House, I have never attempted to abuse the privileges of the House. Mr. Speaker, I thank you and I thank my colleagues for letting me complete my remarks.

October 14, 1975

I was just saying that the Government should be allowed for once to use the Bank of Canada as a means of managing the credit of our nation, of providing new credit, of paying the discount that we suggest as a solution to our present economic problems. A compensated discount is the opposite of a tax. A 10 per cent tax has the effect of increasing prices by 10 per cent, whereas a compensated discount cuts down prices by 10 per cent. The 10 per cent discount benefits all those who use those products. But who is going to pay for that discount? The whole of the Canadian people through the Bank of Canada, the national credit board, will determine that Canadians have worked more, that the country's output has increased. In 1974 our gross national product amounted to $139 billion. But if in 1975 our national product is $140 billion, the increase should benefit all Canadians. And in order that every Canadian may benefit, it should be distributed as dividends, as guaranteed annual income or as another form of revenue.
This, Mr. Speaker, may seem funny to you, but we sincerely believe in such a measure. We are convinced such a formula would be no worse than all the damn formulas tried to date, and which have led to the present failure. Let us have the courage to try something new. We cannot do any worse than what we have known until now.


André Ouellet: Mr. Speaker, when the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) spoke to the nation yesterday evening on television, he asked Canadians to act in a responsible and collective way to deal with the serious economic problems now facing Canada.
The white paper tabled today proposes a series of strong and courageous measures to stop inflation. It is clear that our economy is now besieged by too much inflation. But it is just as clear that there is too much unemployment, and that we should have continued growth while maintaining a social reform program. I say without any hesitation that the government needed a great deal of courage to resist the pressures by those who would have wanted us to use a big stick against inflation, by imposing a freeze on price and wages, whatever the cost to the growth and welfare of our economy, and by making such drastic cuts in government expenditures that the most basic social and economic policies would have suffered.
Instead, the government has opted for a four point program: first, the fiscal and monetary policy will be administered so as to increase global demand and production at a rate consistent with that of an increasingly regressing inflation and there is absolutely no question of using unemployment as an antidote to inflationary forces.
Second, the growth of federal government expenses will be restricted to what we believe the economy of the country can support. It is obvious that the manpower of the public service will not be able to increase substantially and will therefore increase little, but it is also obvious that the government will maintain essential services and allowances, particularly for those who need them most.
Third, the government recognizes that the present inflationary forces are profoundly entrenched in the structure of the goods and services and labour markets, as well as in
Anti-inflation
the attitudes and the expectations of the population. Our labour and goods and services markets are not as effective as they should be. We must therefore make our economy more dynamic and more effective by reducing the present rigidity and intensifying competition in Canada.
These are important concerns which enormously affect my department. If we want to eradicate in the long run the latent danger of inflation, we shall have to develop a whole series of special measures in the areas of food, energy, and housing which will affect the very structures of these areas.
Fourth, the program of the government aims at taking decisive action to overcome the present inflationary psychology by following for the first time since the Second World War a clear and precise policy concerning prices and incomes in Canada.
This policy was used as a guideline to restrict the margins of profits, prices, dividends and salaries in Canada. It is clear, Mr. Speaker, that we recognize the inconsistency of the present inflation rate with the public interest as well as the seriousness of the national problem involved in its control and reversal.
That is why the Prime Minister asked the provincial premiers for their support and urged all Canadians to stand by those guidelines. That is why the Prime Minister also indicated that he hopes that those who hold the economic power in our society will respect those guidelines. That those who hold the economic power, that is his government, the governments of all provinces, the business and labour sectors will strictly comply with that guideline. That is why an anti-inflation board has been set up. It will have to see that this policy is respected. And finally, that is why later this week my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) will introduce legislation to establish the mechanism and provide the necessary powers to force some groups in our society to abide by the guideline, if they do not move volontarily.
Mr. Speaker, I think that in proposing those new economic measures, the government has adopted a responsible and firm position which will allow the Canadian people to go through, without too much trouble, that transitional period and, let us admit it, that period of economic difficulties. It aims at changing the inflation trends without throwing the economy into serious recession. It calls for some restraint from those who seek higher prices and incomes, particularly the big companies, the labour and public sectors, instead of using coercion and a large bureaucracy to reach those objectives. We believe indeed that Canadians would like to shoulder their own responsibility in cooperating with us instead of letting the government get unduly involved in individual and corporate affairs.
I listened very carefully this afternoon to the remarks of
the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Stanfield) who
said that controls had to be comprehensive. For many

October 14, 1975
Anti-inflation
minutes during his speech he tried to tell us that this is exactly what we now have, and he tried to tell us that what he proposed to the Canadian people sometime ago is what the government has now offered the Canadian public.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: It is a variation.


André Ouellet: I think there was an awful lot of wishful thinking on his part when he was speaking.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Go and ask the man in
the street.


André Ouellet: With all due respect to the hon. Leader of the Opposition I should say that I understand he has reason to be away from the House tonight attending a dinner with Mr. Kissinger, and I appreciate why he is not here. At any rate, the things I want to say have to be said here. He used his privilege to speak in this House today in trying to second guess the government, telling us what we are doing, while in fact this is not what he wanted done or what he proposed to the Canadian public some time ago.
We are not today proposing comprehensive controls to the Canadian public. It is quite clear we are not doing this. The Leader of the Opposition at one time went on to say he is opposed to long-term comprehensive controls. He said he prefers short-term controls. Whether they are long or short-term, it is quite clear we are not talking about the same things. He was talking about comprehensive controls, but what we want to do, and what we want the Canadian public to do, is to follow voluntary guidelines for all Canadian people. There is a very substantial difference.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: That is not what the Canadian public is saying.


An hon. Member:: You better read the white paper again.


André Ouellet: We want to impose selective controls for an adequate period of time. If the Leader of the Opposition thinks three years is too long, he should remember that three years can be very quick passing. He knows very well that during his career as Leader of the Opposition the time has been flying for him. There is no doubt that he did not understand at all what 'the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) said last night to the public of Canada. What the Prime Minister said was important was to try to change the psychology of the people.


An hon. Member:: He never said that.


André Ouellet: He said it was important to change the thinking of Canadians who feel that in order to get their piece of cake they must protect themselves against inflation by asking for more. Therefore, when we issue these guidelines we issue them on a voluntary basis applicable to everyone, but we say that the big ones, those who have a significant effect on the economy, must obey a certain set of selective rules, and if they do not there is legislation to be used to put things in order.
I was completely surprised and shocked by the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition when he said the Prime Minister should not try to teach us but should show us. He went on moralizing and so on, and attempted to imply that we are not giving leadership.
[Mr. Ouellet.J
I want to place on record first that the Prime Minister and the other ministers will obey the guidelines. This is clear. I do not appreciate what was said last night on the national network that there will be two sets of guidelines, one for the Canadian people and another for the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister and the ministers will obey the guidelines.
Second, I believe it is important not only to talk but to show leadership. The Prime Minister said that these guidelines will apply to federal public servants, a clear-cut indication that he hopes the provincial governments will have the courage to do the same.
Third, the growth of the public service will be limited. This has been said, and it is important that this be done.
Fourth, the total spending by the Canadian government will not rise out of proportion to the trend in respect of the gross national product. The Leader of the Official Opposition this afternoon read from page 8 of the document "Attack on inflation". This quotation is as follows:
The federal government shares the view that the trend of total spending by all governments in Canada should not rise more quickly than the trend of the gross national product.
He said he does not understand what that means. Surely he should have read the two previous pages and looked particularly at the government's expenditures as a percentage of the gross national product. In fact he should have realized that the total expenditures of all governments in Canada as a percentage of the gross national product have increased to a great degree throughout the years 1965 to 1974. This is the sort of trend about which many people in the business community in Canada have complained. Many people and many members of the opposition have complained about the fact that the federal government and other governments are spending too much. This is the sort of thing with which we are trying to cope.
Surely, however, when we talk of our spending and the sort of things we could do to reduce our spending, the Leader of the Opposition is not suggesting that we should completely phase out some of our commitments that are of a statutory nature. I want to remind hon. members in this House that in fact some 56 per cent of the budgetary expenditures approved for the start of the fiscal year 1975-76 are for statutory programs. Another 9 per cent is accounted for by such essential support programs as consumer subsidies on petroleum products, programs relating to Indians and Eskimos, grants for regional economic expansion, incentives to increase manufacturing, and subsidies to farmers.
There is no doubt that the government will do its utmost to limit expenditures, but not at the expense of the poor people of Canada, those living in remote areas of Canada, and those who are in the greatest need in this society.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to greet you as you are taking up your duties for the first time. I am sure that on behalf of all the members, I may extend to you our best wishes in the performance of your new duties.
October 14, 1975

Mr. Speaker, I am rising this evening mainly to state to the House the crucial role that the Anti-Inflation Board will have to play to create a climate of restraint and moderation and to ensure that those who will readily restrain their price and income increases are not victimized because some powerful sectors of our economy will choose to ignore the rule of the game. I think that it is quite proper to put this Board under the responsibility of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, because under its terms of reference, it must protect the competitive power of the economy while ensuring its efficiency and see to it that the profits derived from production are fairly distributed among the producer, distributor and consumer.
Mr. Speaker, the terms of reference and duties of the Board will be as follows:
First, to monitor movements in prices, profits, compensation and dividends. It will be responsible for examining them in the light of the policy set forth by the government. It will report to the government on the efficiency and the workability of this policy, and make such recommendations for its modification that it deems necessary.
Second, to. identify actual or proposed movements in prices, profits, compensation and dividends which it feels violate the policy proposed by the government.
It will determine to what extent such movements can have a significant impact on the economy and if so, it will bring together the parties involved and endeavour through negotiations and consultations to bring them within the limits and the spirit of the government policy.
Thirdly, should the parties involved refuse to comply voluntarily with the government policy requirements and if they are liable to the legal restraints provided under this policy, the matter will be referred to the administrator of the anti-inflation act. The latter will investigate the matter and if he finds that the government policy was contravened without good reason, he will order a rollback to the initial price and the refund of all amounts paid beyond the limits set under the said policy.
Fourthly and lastly, the Anti-Inflation Board will feel duty bound to promote greater understanding of the inflationary process by arranging public hearings and meetings, by publishing reports, and by other means that it considers helpful. All such reports will be tabled in the House of Commons and made available to the public.
According to its terms of reference, Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the government is not trying to use this Board as an instrument of dictatorship in the economic area. Its main purpose is more like that of a watchdog or a peacemaker. The voluntary acceptance of the government policy will be emphasized, so that the need for a more specific legislation and a closer monitoring will not be felt. We shall give those the Board will deem necessary to investigate every opportunity to justify their behaviour and to mend their ways according to the limits of the government policy.
One of the main duties of the Board will be to define and interpret the government policy in order to apply it to every individual case. It will interpret and define the
Anti-inflation
public interest under such circumstances, whether it be a major increase in prices or salaries during collective bargaining. It will monitor the actions of those who regulate the pace of our economy, big business and collective bargaining both in the public and the private sectors. It will make every effort to bring those who are about to disregard the government policy to adhere to the standard guidelines. However, should persuasion fail and if the parties involved refuse to comply with the policy set forth by the government, the Board will have the necessary authority to recommend the enforcement of the law.
I would like at this point to reply to some remarks made this afternoon by the hon. member for Oshawa-Whitby (Mr. Broadbent) when he said that so far as he is concerned the price control methods that have been outlined by the government are no good and will not operate. He expressed great doubt and great skepticism about what we have put in place. I want to tell him that I have more faith in the plan. I believe that the price controls will be effective, and I want to tell him, as well as other hon. members in the House, that before passing such quaint judgment on the scheme they should at least wait until they see the legislation and then the regulations. I think that then they would be in a better position to pass judgment and condemn or praise the plan.
I have more faith than the hon. member in the anti-inflation review board, and I have much greater faith than he expressed this afternoon in the members of that board. I also have more faith in the person named to be the administrator of the scheme, the official who will have the authority to act and who will have all the tools necessary to ensure that the price control mechanisms which we might want to use if necessary can be used effectively.

My colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) has already stated that later this week he would bring forward a legislation which would give to the governor general in council the power to formulate a policy relating to restrictions with respect to higher profit margins, dividends and salaries, to set up an anti-inflation board, as I have already indicated, and to give to its president the powers which will allow him to apply the government's policy to specific groups.
Moreover, it has been decided that the setting up of this board should not be delayed. So, an order in council has been passed this very morning which established on a temporary basis the composition of the anti-inflation board. This temporary board will be maintained until a permanent anti-inflation board is established, that is until the legislation is passed by Parliament. This interim Board will then become the Anti-Inflation Board.
I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, to confirm that two well-known and highly respectable and respected Canadian citizens have accepted, at the invitation of the Prime Minister, to sit on that Board. The chairman of the Board the hon. Jean-Luc Pepin is not a stranger to the House. Mr. COMMONS DEBATES
October 14, 1975
Anti-inflation
Pepin will bring to the Board an invaluable knowledge of the machinery of government and business management, as well as a good dose of patience and a lot of good humour. The vice-chairman will be the present chairman of the Food Prices Review Board, Mrs. Beryl Plumptre. She has accepted to serve for an interim period long enough to terminate on the one hand the unfinished reports of the Food Prices Review Board and on the other hand to help set up and give a solid start to the new Board. Thanks to her exceptional leadership qualities the Food Prices Review Board has largely contributed I think to educate the people making them aware of the causes of inflation in the food area. I am convinced that she will keep on speaking her mind frankly, quality that personally I greatly appreciate. Furthermore, we have already started to recruit a competent staff in order to allow the Board to immediately get to work. In addition, the government intends to enlarge the membership of the Board so as to include representatives of various regions. This de-centralization will ease the task of the Board which will be able, because of the personal experience of its members, to take into account in its proceedings, situations prevailing in various areas of the country.
Hon. members have probably noticed, while looking at the White Paper, that the federal government has already started to comply with its own recommendations as far as the Crown corporations and federal agencies are concerned. The Prime Minister asked the provincial governments to take this action. The Anti-inflation board will be responsible for imposing the same requirements upon the public sector as upon the private sector.
To this end, the board will create for the public sector a distinct office that will handle price and wage matters. The provinces have been invited to appoint members to that office. The order in council creating the temporary antiinflation board put an end to the work of the Food Prices Review Board. In just over two years, this agency has published more than 40 reports and it will be possible to publish the reports that have reached the final writing, translation or even the printing stage. I wish to say tonight that this agency, through its participation in the public debate on the food prices policy, has given the population a better understanding of such a difficult problem. I wish to thank publicly the members of that board for their excellent work. The experience of the Plumptre Board will not be lost as a good part of its staff will be integrated into the new anti-inflation board.
Mr. Speaker, before I conclude my speech, I wish to recall that the measures we are taking today are those of a government determined to act in a constructive way to improve the economic situation. However, I would be remiss if in my capacity as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs I did not draw the attention of this House on two legislative steps undertaken by my department and which will have a long term impact as far as curbing inflation is concerned. I refer first to the reform of the competition policy in Canada and second, to consumer credit.
I think the reform of the Combines Investigation Act was the most important element of the steps taken by this government to conform with the structure of the economy,

particularly when one knows that the contrary itself is responsible for a good part for the inflation we have.
The white paper also emphasizes the fact that this country needs greater market competition. The current legislation is outmoded and several of its provisions are no longer in line with the current modern world. I am happy to know that under an agreement with opposition members we can look forward to the rapid passage of Bill C-2 this week in the House of Commons, and I hope members of the other House will understand that it is important to approve this bill quickly and will cooperate with the government in that respect. Preparation of Phase II of the competition policy is practically completed, and we are getting ready to publish it later on this year. The proposals will reflect the judgment of the most enlightened Canadians on competition, and should clarify the question. After a reasonable period of discussion and debate, it is my intention to table a bill during the next session.
I also believe another major piece of legislation could help Canadians face the price increases. I am referring to the precise evaluation of their credit needs. Too often, unfortunately, consumers do not know the real cost of credit and tend to underestimate its impact on the family budget. It is so easy to use a credit card and forget that there are less costly ways of financing one's purchases. In my belief, it is the government's duty to ensure there is adequate disclosure of credit costs, such disclosure as not to require the use of a computer to compare various financing means.
The consumers must be informed of the best method available to them to lower their credit costs. Therefore, I intend to propose to the House a legislation concerning the protection of borrowers. That new legislation will provide for adequate protection for small borrowers. Also, my department is setting up programs aimed at helping consumers, particularly those who have low incomes, in order that they use credit in a more appropriate way. The legislation will also offer better protection for those who are involved with usurious moneylenders. I am convinced that careful and sensible use of credit will help many Canadians come through this difficult period.
Mr. Speaker, the new economic measures taken by the government are based on the belief that Canadians will give a constructive answer to the invitation of the Prime Minister and that they will accept to get together to slow down the price and income increases and also the excessive pressures which have jeopardized the economy. As I said, the anti-inflation board will play an important part in that government price and income policy.
This will not bring about undue government interference in the economy.
Those who accept voluntarily to submit to government policy will be assured that they will not become the victims of unscrupulous manipulators.
Finally, this will provide sufficient flexibility to adjust to economic fluctuations while our economy is on the uprise.
Mr. Speaker, I believe this anti-inflation policy to be a wise policy which meets the present needs of the Canadi-
October 14, 1975

an economy and provides what a great majority of Canadians wished for from the central government, and I am convinced that despite the disfigurement by the opposition of this general program, of this government attack program on inflation, despite the very understandable disfigurement by the Progressive Conservative Party, which would like people to believe that we are imposing a comprehensive and complete control on prices and incomes, the great majority of Canadians will understand that these are selective measures, but also guidelines, which must apply voluntarily in Canada and which, I am sure, will be followed by the great majority of Canadians.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Turner (London East)):: The
hon. member for York-Simcoe (Mr. Stevens).


Walter David Baker: Mr. Speaker, before the hon. member speaks, would the minister permit a question?


André Ouellet: Yes.


Walter David Baker: I listened with great interest to the statement of the minister that the Government intended to practise restraint and moderation. Could the minister tell us whether the increase in the number of parliamentary secretaries from 20 to 27 is an example of the kind of restraint the government intends to practise in terms of this program?


André Ouellet: I think it is clear that, in difficult times, the government must resort to all available means to govern the country to and explain to the people which government measures are good for the country. And if the government can benefit from the competence and knowledge of some hon. members on this side of the House, in a higher capacity than that of ordinary members of parliament, then I have the feeling that all Canadians will approve the Prime Minister's decision.


Sinclair McKnight Stevens: Mr. Speaker, on rising to join in this debate this evening I would first comment that perhaps the voters of Hochelaga have recorded the most accurate verdict with respect to this government in the preliminary results which have now come in from that constituency.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Sinclair McKnight Stevens: If the presentation of this program was at least partly a gimmick to influence the voters of Hochelaga, those voters were not fooled.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Sinclair McKnight Stevens: As I listened to the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) last night on television, I wanted to believe what he was saying. I earnestly hoped that the government was on the verge of launching an anti-inflationary program in this nation. But having read the remarks of the Prime Minister, the highlights of the anti-inflation program of th^ government, and the anti-inflation program itself, I
Anti-inflation
find it difficult to match the words of the government with its previous actions. We have heard this rhetoric before. We have heard the Prime Minister lamenting that somehow it is others in the private sector who are causing the problem, but not the government.
For example, on November 2, 1969-that is a long time ago-the Prime Minister went on the television program "The Nation's Business" and stated:
... the situation is an inflationary one. And that is why such a large thrust of all the government's policies is concerned with breaking the back of inflation. We as a government have taken various steps, balancing our budget-even having a surplus.
I wonder how he accounts for the $5 billion deficit this year alone when he talks about surpluses? Most interesting of all, on November 2, 1969, he went on to state:
We have had a monetary policy, a fiscal policy, which shows that we are doing our part.
He pointed his finger at various sectors of the economy and stated that it is the duty of the government to talk for all these little people ... It is the business of the government to speak for them. "We are doing it by telling big companies and big unions if they do not follow the government's example-and its voluntary restraint-we will take some action."
He went on to say:
We can spend more money. But we want to have our operations responsible. We don't want to increase taxes, therefore we don't want to have a deficit.
Finally he stated:
It is private enterprise, it is the private sector of the economy and in this I include the big unions, who are not doing their share.
How similar that is to the words of last night. He went on to state:
Because they have strong bargaining power they're trying to get a big slice of the cake and pass on the results of their greed to the little people. What we're saying now is that if they don't take their responsibilities, the government will take its.
Before we go further in this debate let us recall what has been the record of the government with respect to the items referred to in this speech by the Prime Minister. He refers to deficits, government spending, fiscal policy, and monetary policy. Here is the record.
Since the Prime Minister took power in April, 1968, the money supply in this country has risen by an astounding 111 per cent, a 15 per cent increase in the last 12 months alone. In the same period we find that inflation has gone up 58 per cent. This is the inflation that the Prime Minister spoke of breaking back in 1969.
Perhaps most significantly during this period, the government's own spending has jumped by 192 per cent, it has almost doubled, yet in 1969 we had a prime minister who had the nerve to suggest that his government in future years was going to be a government of restraint with respect to monetary growth and government spending. That is why, although I would earnestly hope that the government would accept its responsibility and tackle inflation in this country in an effective way, I believe we have grounds for doubt that its members are serious in their present stance with respect to inflation.

October 14, 1975
Anti-inflation
In my view, Mr. Speaker, there are several parts to a proper, comprehensive anti-inflationary program. The monetary stance of the government is one thing, its fiscal stance on government spending is a second. The trade policy of the government has got to change-that too is part of a proper inflation policy. There is no industrial strategy in this country, yet last night we heard no suggestion that the new Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Jamieson) was going to come up with any new direction for our industry.
In this debate, especially when the bill is before us, I think we should press the government to explain more fully to what extent it is going to cut out some of the government regulations that frustrate business in this country at the present time.
I believe some consideration should also be given to, and action taken on, where we can relieve some of the overlapping jurisdictional problems that exist in the country at the federal, provincial and municipal levels. This is one of the bottlenecks and we are not being told in detail of any government plans to relieve this problem.
Finally, I would suggest that in any anti-inflationary program the government should be willing to outline the position it intends to take in international circles among the large industrial nations to ensure that there is a concerted effort among those nations to counter inflation in the western world.
I should like to go back to those eight points in due course, but before we consider the program that was outlined last night and more fully described in the white paper today, we should check once again the wording of the budget speech delivered by the former minister of finance on June 23 this year. As we know, throughout the presentation today and yesterday the government made frequent references to this June 23 budget, and you will recall that in making their presentation both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald) quoted quite extensively from that speech. What they did not say was that the then minister of finance dealt with the concept of controls on June 23. Here is what the then minister of finance said:
We gave careful consideration to the imposition of statutory controls over prices and incomes.
He went on to explain that he felt that there was some possibility that those controls would, in principle, be acceptable at that time. He continued:
But there would have been-and are-immense difficulties and disadvantages in such a course of action.
That is referring specifically to the type of control we now have before us. The minister of finance of that date stated:
Government would have to interfere in every type of business decision and wage settlement. To a far greater extent than in a voluntary program, a new bureaucratic apparatus would have to be set up. New types of inequity would be created. The flexibility of the market economy in directing resources where they are most needed would be impaired. Dislocations would occur.
The minister went on to state:
These costs would be worth paying if direct controls could be successfully imposed. If this were the case, we might well achieve lower price and cost increases without higher unemployment. But the success of
such a program would depend crucially on widespread public support. As I have said before, I believe that we can resort to direct controls only when there is a public conviction of the need for such action. That point has not been reached.
That was the government's view on June 23. What has changed? What has changed now other than the minister of finance? Is there this public support that the former minister of finance felt that they needed before bringing in the controls that we now have? Judging from the comments of labour leaders last night, it would appear not. I simply state that we seem to have a very inconsistent pattern in the government's policy concerning the program that it is now asking us to accept.
I understand that the powers to be are to be given discretion, as an integral part of the anti-inflation program, to tax away all income increases in excess of specified amounts. The former minister of finance spoke about this concept too. He said that he had examined the possibility of taxing away all income increases which exceed certain specified amounts. We concluded, he said, that this would result in administrative nightmares, create massive inequities but not ensure that the inflation of costs and prices would be effectively brought under control.
Why has the government changed its position? Are the provisions the Minister of Finance now refers to any different in their effect from the provisions referred to by the former minister? At that time they were called a nightmare. Is this what the present minister meant when he said that the program to be unveiled by the Prime Minister is frightening? That is the background we ought to consider as we debate the contemplated provisions of this program.
Let me be specific and talk about money. Dealing with monetary and fiscal policy the government, in its pamphlet "Attack on Inflation", says on page 4:
The fiscal stance set in the June 23, 1975 budget, together with the announced intention of the Bank of Canada to allow the money supply to expand at a rate consistent with moderate real growth and a decline in the rate of inflation, constitutes an over-all demand management policy consistent with these objectives.
In other words, the suggestion is that these actions are consistent with a responsible fiscal and monetary policy. What utter balderdash! I defy any member of the House to read that statement and tell us what it means.
We have the government's record to guide us. We know what the government's monetary stance has been. Its stance has been among the most expansive in the world. If the Prime Minister wants to go on television to tell the Canadian people the facts, he should also spell out what the government has done to the country's money system. Let him tell the people what it has done to make the printing presses spew out more and more money in this nation. Do not take my word for it, Mr. Speaker. The Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce deals with this question in its current Commercial Letter entitled "Inflation"-in bright red letters. There is a table in the letter showing how the money supply of the major industrial countries has grown. You know, this country is not the leader in the world in many areas, but we are No. 1 now for growth of money supply in 1974.
[Mr Stevens.)
October 14, 1975

The table shows that the Canadian money supply grew by 18.9 per cent in 1974, a higher rate of growth than that shown by any nation on the list, including the United States, Austria, Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and Japan.
Can we take the government seriously when it says that it has launched an anti-inflation program? Can we take it seriously when we bear in mind that our money supply increased by 18.9 per cent in 1974, and that in the twelve months ending in September there was a further increase of 15 per cent? Mr. Arthur F. Burns, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board of the United States, has said that that country would restrict its monetary growth to between 5 per cent and 7.5 per cent. On July 29, 1975, Mr. Burns appeared before the joint economic committee of Congress and said candidly that any growth in the money supply exceeding the figures just referred to would result in further inflation in his country. The United States authorities are willing to say they want to limit monetary growth to between 5 per cent and 7.5 per cent, but our government has not had the courage to tell the Canadian public its target for money growth in this country.
Despite the words spewed out about monetary restraint we know, according to the last available figures, that our money supply recently increased by $604 million. So much for limiting monetary growth. I said that that is one of the underlying pressures causing inflation in this country, and if the government were candid it would admit it.
The second underlying pressure is government spending. Here let me refer to its own figures. On page 5 of "Attack on Inflation" there is a table which shows that the federal government took 13.8 per cent of the gross national product in 1970, its take having risen from 12.9 per cent in 1965. The last figure is for 1974, which shows that the federal government took 16.1 per cent of the gross national product in that year. Governments took over 39 per cent of our gross national product in 1974, and will possibly take 40 per cent in the current year. This process has been one of the factors contributing to inflation. The Prime Minister ought to be honest with the Canadian public. This government's mismanagement has been causing inflation.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Sinclair McKnight Stevens: The Prime Minister has juggled cabinet positions, as well he ought to have. Consider, for example, what has happened in the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce. Can you imagine any minister heading that department tolerating a trading deficit of $5 billion? I sincerely hope that the newly appointed Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Jamieson) will, salesman that he is, introduce more imaginative programs and ensure that we sell more of our goods on world markets than is presently the case.
I have already referred to the country's lack of industrial strategy. I have touched on government regulations and their impact on business. I suggest that we, as members of parliament, must be alert in the months and years ahead, to see whether the government takes steps to reduce the bureaucracy and lessen the red tape with which business must live at present. The federal government has been
Anti-inflation
quick to regulate business still further, but has rarely cut out useless regulations. Such regulations and restrictions add to the cost of our goods and lessen industry's freedom to produce. In a free society industry's chronic problem has always been over-production, not underproducting. Recently, owing in many instances to government intervention, this had changed. Governments sanction cartels in business which, in turn, permit businesses to restrict their production and increase prices without being subject to the pressures of a free market.
The government has paid lip service in its anti-inflation program to the idea of at least reviewing such government regulations. It states that it intends to assess more carefully the cost to the private sector of many government rules and regulations in the context of their benefits to society at large. That is a welcome intention. Certainly I, for one, will watch the results of this assessment. To date, however-and I stress this-governments have continued to introduce legislation which places further controls on people and creates a greater bureaucracy to control the controls. The controls may be noble in intent, but in my opinion a lot deal with trivia, a lot are confusing, and a lot are impossible. The waste of time and energy is enormous.
I thought it interesting that the government should choose the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ouellet) to be its second spokesman on this important subject of inflation. There we have it, the king of the bureaucracy telling us how they are going to handle an anti-inflationary program. I suggest that if you add up the costs of the effects of the government's regulations in all industries and in all levels of commerce, it will prove to be a major factor in higher prices today. In fairness the government does touch on this problem in its white paper and I earnestly press the government to take action in these areas as they are spelled out in this program. The effect of such regulations is a cost that the producer or businessman cannot absorb in its entirety, so the consumer is paying for it as he has to pay taxes to keep the bureaucracy itself alive.
Touching more specifically on the program as laid down, I would point out several odd features in it. Under the definition of the cost on page 17 of the program, it deals with various ways that business can add up costs and then have a price increase, if necessary.
How is the government going to handle, for example, wholly foreign owned multi-national corporations when it deals with this question of cost? How effectively is it going to keep track of the cost of articles that may be imported from the parent company for further manufacture in Canada, and then sold? To what extent can the government guarantee to the members of this House that those articles will not be marked up in price, the cost then passed on in the form of a price increase, the net effect being the siphoning off of income to the foreign parent? It may be that that provision in the program as it is administered will end up looking like a veritable sieve.
I also note that there are many exemptions with respect to the settlements. For example, if an employer can demon-

October 14, 1975
Anti-inflation
strate that he cannot attract or hold workers at existing wages and that an increase above the guidelines is necessary, the employer will not be regarded as having breached the guidelines.
I point out these references because I think the members of this House must examine the program very carefully to ensure that there will not be inequities, that those who have a wage increase that is justifiable are not denied their increase, but on the other hand those who do not have a justifiable wage increase should be denied that wage increase. There must not only be equity, but there must be the appearance of equity in the handling of the program that we now have before us. That is why I press the government to be more specific, to give us more knowledge as to what it intends and, hopefully, leave less discretion to this anti-inflationary board when it is set up.
As my leader stated earlier, we can go along with the spirit of this anti-inflationary program. However, we emphasize that there must be much more clarification of the program than we have had to date. We are disturbed by the rather indefinite period of the program. Three years is a long time. Certainly any control program that we in this party ever contemplated would not run for that long a duration.
I know that others wish to join in this debate. I will conclude by stating that we have before us perhaps the most momentous program and the most serious deliberation that we are going to have before us in this parliament. I urge every member to take a deep interest in the program and to ensure that inequities will not occur in its administration. Second, and this I stress most strongly, let us as members of parliament keep pressing the government not only to give us rhetoric, but to back up that rhetoric with actions that will end or at least lessen inflation in this country.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, I see that I have approximately one minute to add some of my gems to what has been dispersed throughout the House today.
Hon. members might appreciate knowing that I met with Mr. Morris of the CLC. I have gone over their statement. I indicated to him and to them that there has been an honest endeavour, on the part of the government through this program, to meet labour's nine points. The degree of success that I had may be revealed by the position taken by the CLC during the course of this week.
I think they are satisfied, at least to some extent, that we control many items indicated in their nine points. They mention professional fees, rents-and we look to the provinces there-and land speculation. As we go down the list there is housing and what we intend to do there, rents, land speculation, and co-operation of the provinces. About the only areas not directly affected by this program in their nine points is redistribution of income. That happens to be the total rationale for this program so that we can afford to take care of people in the lower income group. I cannot think of any sounder reason for the endorsation of
this policy announced today in the House by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Macdonald).


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask if there is anyone on the other side with authority who can tell me if it is still the intention of the government to go ahead with Bill C-2 tomorrow and the next day?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: That is correct, Mr. Speaker. It will be Bill C-2.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. It being ten o'clock and the second motion having been made to adjourn at this time, therefore the question is that this House do now adjourn.



PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION

[Stage Direction]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 40 deemed to have been moved.

Jack Marshall: Mr. Speaker, I do not see the Minister of State for Urban Affairs (Mr. Danson) in the chamber and I am not aware of the appointment of his new parliamentary secretary.
I am pleased to have the opportunity again to bring to the attention of the House the situation arising from the government's housing program which, as the result of the controls that will hopefully be implemented, is vital and timely. I hope the parliamentary secretary can convince the minister, as I have tried to do on several occasions, to increase immediately the funding under the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. This is what I indicated to the minister in my question of July 21 last.
I repeat once again that the RRAP program is excellent. It could meet the needs of many thousands of Canadians. It could also relieve the pressure on those low and no income Canadians who own their own homes but cannot afford to maintain them. As a result their homes will continue to deteriorate and those citizens will have to join the ever-increasing numbers of those who require low rental or subsidized homes, and which the government cannot provide in the numbers needed at the present moment.
Let me give you an example, Mr. Speaker, of the tremendous value of this program to the Province of Newfoundland, a situation that is most familiar to me. The majority of Newfoundlanders in small rural communities own their
(Mr. Stevens.]
October 14, 1975

Adjournment Debate
own homes. Many of these were built without compliance to any standards simply because no standards had been established at the time. Hundreds of them are close to 50 years old and were therefore built without many of the facilities which are taken for granted today. For example, a high percentage of them are without water pipes, inside toilets, central heating and-most important-are without insulation.
This matter of insulation is one I wish to refer to the minister; it involves an issue which the minister and his colleague, the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Gillespie) do not seem to want to comprehend. For some reason or other they do not want to acknowledge the waste which exists as a result of the fact that many thousands of homes, not only in Newfoundland but in every province of Canada, are improperly insulated, with the result that the cost of heating is doubled or even trebled to those occupying these sub-standard homes, particularly in the winter months.
Consider, too, Mr. Speaker, that many of the citizens occupying these homes are on welfare and that it is incumbent upon many provincial social services departments to increase the amount of assistance granted so as to cope with the added cost of home heating. It must be obvious to the minister that if more funds were made available to provinces under the RRAP program to allow for the provision of suitable electrical facilities and heating systems, and to reduce the risk run by those who live in sub-standard homes, millions of dollars and millions of gallons of heating oil would be saved, thus reducing costs which are tending, surely, to fuel the fires of inflation and increase the effect of inflation upon those who can least afford to cope with it-the poor of our country.
Apart from a statement that his department was directing attention to the matter, the only answer I received from the minister in reply to my question of July 21 was that the minister of finance of that day had eliminated the sales tax on insulation materials. I cannot accept this answer. Surely the minister knows that those to whom I refer, those who need help the most, cannot afford even to take advantage of the elimination of the sales tax by purchasing insulation materials.
The other grievance I wish to direct to the minister is that the allocation of funding for my province has been the insignificant amount of $600,000, which at best would provide relief or advantage only to some 300 homes and which would only relieve the pressures on less than 10 per cent of Newfoundland's needs.
I am sure the minister is cognizant of the needs of Canadians with regard to housing and I can only appeal to him to reassess this situation in the spirit of my presentation, to recognize realistically the facts as they exist, and to accept my suggestions which I put forward in a spirit of co-operation. I trust he will treat this as a matter of high priority, and adopt a commonsense approach when it comes to supporting a rehabilitation program and providing the funding necessary both to relieve the pressures on low income Canadians and to allow the government to cope with present housing needs, particularly since the
government is now taking steps to control the inflationary disease which so harshly affects those citizens who need the cure the most.


Mr. Jean-Robert Gauthier (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of State for Urban Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe (Mr. Marshall) for giving me the first opportunity to speak in my role tonight as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of State for Urban Affairs. I am sure the minister appreciates the deep concern the hon. member has shown for this problem, and his remarks tonight will certainly carry the usual weight and will be studied carefully.
I should first of all refer back to the statement made on July 21, and to correct a misapprehension which is evident from the hon. member's question asked at that time. He suggested that only $7 million had been allocated for residential rehabilitation throughout Canada and that Newfoundland's share was only $600,000. These figures are correct for residential rehabilitation in rural areas, but an allocation of $39,300,000 has been made for residential rehabilitation in centres of over 2,500 people, and Newfoundland's share of that allocation is $1,300,000.
Furthermore, I am very pleased to be able to report to the House some significant progress in the area with which the hon. member is most concerned. As at September 30 of this year, in Newfoundland rehabilitation assistance applications approved and in the process of approval totalled approximately $1 million. This represents a take-up in the first nine months of this year of close to 75 per cent of the annual budget, suggesting that the program is right on target. It was the wish of the province of Newfoundland to allocate all rural rehabilitation funds to the Trout River area. Other rehabilitation loans and grants are limited to the two neighbourhood improvement areas in St. John's.
Elsewhere in Canada applications are being received at an increasing rate as other provinces proceed with the designation of municipalities and neighbourhood improvement areas. As a personal comment I would like to note that in my riding of Ottawa-Vanier I have two neighbourhood improvement areas and I am very satisfied with the way they are operating. One has been in existence for the last year, and another is just starting in Vanier.
The program is picking up steam and, as the very necessary consultations and agreements are accomplished and signed, there are indications that NIP and RRAP may enjoy a measure of success comparable to our extremely popular AHOP. It is now apparent they are meeting the need that prompted their introduction and that we can look forward to steadily increasing activity as the delivery systems are developed.
In the next few months as we give attention to the budget allocations for 1976 we will be watching closely the take-up capabilities of provinces under these two programs. Within the overall constraints we will ensure that funds are channeled from areas where they are not immediately required into those places where they can be put to the greatest use.

October 14, 1975
Adjournment Debate


TRANSPORT-URBAN TRANSPORTATION ASSISTANCE PROGRAM-DEFINITION OF WORDS &quot;COMMUTER SYSTEM&quot;
Mr. Douglas Roche (Edmonton-Strathcona):: Mr. Speaker, last March I asked the former Minister of Transport what progress was being made on the government's announced urban transportation assistance program, and I specifically asked the minister to ensure that the words "commuter system" would be defined to include municipal transit systems, in which case the Edmonton Northeast Rapid Transit line would qualify for assistance.
I asked that question because during the 1974 election campaign the government announced that a substantial program was forthcoming to assist urban transportation. As a matter of fact there were two or three policies enunciated by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) during that compaign which drew applause throughout the country, as the people were led to believe the government was finally going to act in helping to improve urban transportation.
At that time Edmonton was beginning the construction of the Northeast Rapid Transit line, and as the third city in Canada to have a subway Edmonton was trying to find out whether it could qualify under the terms of the policy. Several months went by, and it would take far more than the time allotted here tonight to go over all the correspondence back and forth between Ottawa and Edmonton, without any definitive answer being given because the policy had not yet been so formulated that it could be put into specific terms.
Nonetheless, Edmonton having committed itself to a rapid transit system went ahead and ordered rolling stock on the ground that it was important to keep construction on schedule for the subway so that it would be in place for the Commonwealth Games of 1978.
Finally on July 30 this year the government announced some details in respect of an urban transportation assistance policy. It announced a program of $100 million to be spent over a period of five years. But what did we find when we got to the detail but the very thing I and the administration of Edmonton had feared would indeed happen, namely, that there would be excluded from the policy municipal urban transport systems? That is to say, this policy would be in force only for systems between cities, and not for systems within a city. That seemed to me to cut the heart out of the urban transportation policy that we had been lead to believe the government was interested in bringing before the country.
The policy as enunciated on July 30 said that any vehicles which had previously been ordered would be excluded from federal assistance. Edmonton of course had gone ahead and ordered its vehicles in order to keep construction on time. I suggest that the implementation of the policy announced on July 30 was discrimination against the city of Edmonton, and indeed against all of Alberta since there is no system in Alberta that will qualify for the policy as enunciated and explained on July 30.
I say to the parliamentary secretary, speaking through
him to the new minister, that if the new minister wants to
show signs that he is sincere in his determination to
represent western Canada in the government and the needs of the west, he should take a very hard look at this policy which is discriminating against Edmonton and change it so that Edmonton would qualify for $12.1 million worth of federal assistance if the rapid transit line of the city of Edmonton could be included in the policy. Edmonton has the support of the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities in its endeavour to receive its just appropriation.
If the government's policy of restraint which we have been hearing a lot about in the past 24 hours is to mean anything then there must be an element of fairness in how government money is spent. I suggest that since the policy of funding would take place between 1977 and 1982, a period of five years, this would fit into any policy of restraint on government expenditures, especially if we consider the over-all effect of what public transportation does in this country in cutting down automobile costs in heavily urbanized centres.
Indeed we know that for every $1 spent on cars in urban centres less than five cents is spent on public transportation. That is a shame in a society which is now beginning to pride itself on energy conservation, and indeed at a time when the government is spending enormous sums of money on advertising programs to convince Canadians that we must save energy in respect of heating and mobile costs. Therefore I suggest that at the tri-level meetings which are continuing in this country, with governments trying to get together, and in which I myself participated on September 29 in Edmonton, if there is to be a spirit of trust and mutual confidence then we must expect that the government will be honest with the people of Alberta and say that when it announced the policy in an election campaign it intended to deliver on it over a period in harmony with a policy of restraint and of energy conservation. The government should be honest with the people and not exclude us. So, for energy saving and a proper energy policy for the west, and indeed for the credibility of the new Minister of Transport (Mr. Lang), to whom I wish success, I say it is absolutely imperative that he re-assess that policy.


Ralph Goodale: Mr. Speaker, may I say at the beginning that I am very pleased at this first opportunity which I have to participate in the debate in the House as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, and I am glad to do so in response to the remarks of a fellow westerner. I took very careful note of the hon. member's comments with respect to what he perceives quite rightly to be the deep concern of the present Minister of Transport (Mr. Lang) for the position of western Canada in Confederation and his aspirations in that regard. I can assure the hon. member that those aspirations are shared by many of us in all parts of the House.
As the hon. member for Edmonton-Strathcona (Mr. Roche) is undoubtedly aware, and indeed as he has just pointed out quite correctly, the problem of traffic congestion and its related evils such as automobile accidents, pollution, and urban sprawl, have become prevalent within our urban areas. A promising way to alleviate these prob-

October 14, 1975

lems is to increase the use of urban commuter and transit services in order to reduce the number of cars on the road.
Canadian municipalities have improved public transportation services in recent years with financial aid from provincial governments; the announcement of the federal intention last year to provide further capital assistance for urban transportation was warmly received by provincial and municipal spokesmen, and the media.
The former minister of transport, and the present Minister responsible for Urban Affairs (Mr. Danson) announced on July 30, 1975, a federal government capital assistance program for urban transportation. This program deals specifically with assistance for urban commuter services and provides for up to 75 per cent of the cost of new vehicles for such services in the form of grants, and a further 25 per cent in loans. This program will provide technical and planning assistance to municipalities, but particularly to those smaller ones which may have a need. As the Minister of State for Urban Affairs stated earlier,
Adjournment Debate
there has never been conflict between officials of the Ministry of Transport and those of the Department of State for Urban Affairs, and the announced program is the result of close collaboration between officials of the two Ministries. Furthermore, these two ministries are working very closely together in an examination of further initiatives that the federal government might take in the future in the area of urban transportation.
As the hon. member may know, the present Minister of Transport after assuming the transport portfolio did have occasion to meet briefly in Ottawa recently with His Worship Mayor Horawlec of Edmonton, and he indicated to the mayor at that time that he would re-examine the question of federal government support for the Edmonton rapid transit system.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The two motions to adjourn the House being now deemed to have been adopted, accordingly this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m.
Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 10.21 p.m.

Wednesday, October 15, 1975.