1973-09-05

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Mr. Jack Marshall (Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe):: Mr. Speaker, I rise under the provisions of Standing Order 43 on a matter of urgent and pressing necessity related to the legislation on old age security tabled in the House yesterday. Although the legislation will escalate pensions under the OAS/GIS plans, the increases will not benefit those veterans receiving war veterans allowances who are 65 and over. I therefore move seconded by the member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Beattie):
That this House instructs the government through the Department of Veterans Affairs to provide, by Order-in-Council, or by amendment to the War Veterans Allowances Act, that similar increases be awarded to war veterans.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: This motion requires unanimous consent. Is there unanimity?


Some hon. Members:: Yes.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: There is not unanimity.

[ Translation]


FINANCE
Mr. Henry Latulippe (Compton):: Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 43, I seek the unanimous consent of the House to discuss a matter of pressing and urgent necessity.
Considering that there is no provision in the legislation presently under discussion likely to remove the 11 per cent on building materials which, we feel, directly contributes to the high cost of living, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Lambert):
That a special House committee be appointed to assess the resulting impact of this tax on building materials and the cost of living increase and report as soon as possible.


Mr. Speaker:: The House has heard the hon. member's motion. Under Standing Order 43, this motion requires the unanimous consent of the House. Is there unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: There is not unanimous consent; therefore, the motion cannot be put.


ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES READJUSTMENT ACT
Mr. Don Blenkarn (Peel South) moved: for leave to introduce Bill C-222, respecting the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Donald Alex Blenkarn: Mr. Speaker, this bill is to amend the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act to provide that the designation of the constituency of Peel South be changed to that of Mississauga. On January 1 next year, the towns of Port Credit, Streetsville and Mississauga are being combined together into the city of Mississauga. The boundaries of Peel South encompass the city of Mississauga. Therefore I would ask speedy passage of this bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first time and ordered to be printed.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Orlikow: In the past year, what were the federal expenditures on the planning, building and equipping of health sciences teaching facilities from each (a) hospital construction grants (b) national health grants (c) general public health grants (d) National

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
Research Council (e) Medical Research Council (f) Health Resources Fund (g) others?


Mr. John M. Reid (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: I am informed by several departments as follows: (a) $5,072,100; (b) Nil; (c) Nil; (d) Nil; (e) Nil; (f) $37,000,000; (g) Nil.


DEPARTMENT OF INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Knight: 1.	How many full-time employees were there as of January 31, 1970 in the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
2.	How many of those employees were earning more than $15,000 annually, distributed according to $1,000 intervals?
3.	How many full-time employees were there as of January 31, 1973 in the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
4.	How many of those employees were earning more than $18,000 annually, distributed according to $1,000 intervals?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1.	7,338.
2.	$15,000-$15,999, 78; $16,000-$16,999, 56; $17,000-$17,999, 55; $18,000-$18,999, 35; $19,000-$19,999, 23; $20,000-$20,999, 12;
$21,000-$21,999, 10; $22,000-$22,999, 1; $23,000-$23,999, 3; $24,-000-$24,999, 4; $20,000-$25,000, *SX 1, 15; $22,000-$27,000, *SX 2, 4; $24,000-$30,000, *SX 3, 6.
3.	8,624.
4.	$18,000-$18,999, 67; $19,000-$19,999, 72; $20,000-$20,999, 47; $21,000-$21,999, 43; $22,000-$22,999, 25; $23,000-$23,999, 29; $24,000-$24,999, 17; $25,000-$25,999, 8; $26,000-$26,999, 9; $27,-000-$27,999, 2; $28,000-$28,999, 1; $22,000-$28,000, *SX 1, 23; $25,000-$31,000, *SX 2, 8; $28,000-$35,000, *SX 3, 6; $40,000-$45,000, *DM 2, 1.
'Not separated to $1,000 intervals in order to protect privacy of salary information in accordance with T.B. circular No. 1969-206.


DEPARTMENTAL FURNISHINGS
Mr. Kempling: For each of the past two financial years, by province, what was the total value, in dollars, of contracts awarded for departmental furnishings, for example counters, weldments and shelving, for post offices, to companies established in each of the provinces?


John Mercer Reid: The Post Office Department awarded contracts for shelving as follows:
Contracts awarded directly to suppliers
Manitoba District
British Columbia & Yukon District
Total
Insofar as the Department of Public Works is concerned: Counters in post offices are not considered as furnishings since they are constructed as part of the construction contracts. Shelving when it is built-in is also constructed under our construction contracts; when it is free standing it is ordered by Post Office from D.S.S. as ordinary furni-
1971-72	1972-73
	$ 1,162.00
$47.00	10,381.00
$47.00	$11,543.00
ture. As far as weldments are concerned, lock boxes and other small postal fittings are the only furnishings provided by D.P.W. Details of contracts awarded and orders placed against standing offer agreements for these items are shown on the attached sheets. See attached listings.
Province	Value of Contracts	Company
P.E.I.	Nil	
Newfoundland	$ 14,929.31*	Rousseau Metal Inc., Saint Jean, Port Joli, QuebecNova Scotia	14,353.66*	Rousseau Metal Inc., Saint Jean, Port Joli, QuebecNew Brunswick	9,012.48*	Rousseau Metal Inc., Saint Jean, Port Joli, QuebecQuebec	74,634.99*	Dominion Lock Co., Montreal, QuebecOntario	31,815.00*	Beach Industries Ltd., Smiths Falls, Ontario14,604.90*	Dominion Lock Co., Montreal, Quebec2,086.20	Interroyal Corp., Galt, Ontario1,122.00	Bow Plastics, Granby, Quebec147.16	Central Store & Fixtures Co., (Toronto)

September 5, 1973

1971-72
Order Paper Questions
Province
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Alberta
British Columbia
Value of Contracts 95.20
5,810.00*
26,405.00*
23,219.24* (Includes $590. for locations in N.W.T.)
32,210.93
Company
C. A. Paradis,
Ottawa, Ontario
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
Province

Newfoundland Nova Scotia New Brunswick Quebec Ontario
Manitoba
Saskatchewan
Alberta
British Columbia
1972-73 Value of Contracts Nil
$ 3,534.11* 6,687.44* 20,129.09* 125,680.10* 126,923.25*
631.80
408.00
136.00 109.78
97.60
20,496.00*
9,360.00*
24,570.65*
(Includes $3,134.00 for locations in N.W.T.)
24,493.51*
Company
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
Dominion Lock Co., Montreal, Quebec
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
Interroyal Corp.,
Galt, Ontario
Beach Industries Ltd.,
Smiths Falls, Ontario
C. A. Paradis,
Ottawa, Ontario
Central Store & Fixture Co., Toronto, Ontario
Bow Plastics,
Granby, Quebec
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Wenco Industries Ltd., Calgary, Alberta
Rousseau Metal Inc.,
Saint Jean, Port Joli, Quebec
*These amounts represent the value of orders placed by D.P.W. against standing offer agreements entered into by DSS for lock boxes.
6220

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions


COMPANIES ASSIGNED CONTRACTS TO HAUL ARCTIC CARGO
Mr. Forrestall: For (a) 1971 (b) 1972, for each of the shipping companies which were assigned contracts to haul Arctic cargo, what were (i) the
(a)	Chimo Shipping Limited Transworld Shipping Limited Federal Commerce & Navigation
Company Limited Agence Maritime Inc.
Braemar Shipping Limited Branch Lines Limited
(b)	Chimo Shipping Limited Federal Commerce & Navigation
Company Limited Agence Maritime Inc.
Branch Lines Limited


CANADIAN REGISTRY OF SHIPS INVOLVED IN HAULING ARCTIC CARGO
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	For the 1971 and 1972 contracts issued for the hauling of Arctic cargo by water, was there an understanding made that the ships involved would be placed on the Canadian registry and, if so
2.
Company
Chimo Shipping Limited Federal Commerce &
Navigation Co. Ltd.
names of the companies (ii) if subsidiaries, the name of the parent companies (iii) the nationality of the companies or the parent companies as the case may be?


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Transport):: Federally Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Provincially (Quebec) Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
Provincially (Quebec) Incorporated
Federally Incorporated
how many and to which companies did such ships belong that were so affected?
2.	For each of the above, from what nationality was the change made?


Jean Marchand: 1. Ministry of Transport Invitations to Tender and contracts required all ships to be Canadian registry.
Vessel
M.V. Bill Crosbie M.V. Federal Hudson M.V. Axel Heiberg M.V. Tavastland M.V. Sable Ferry TEO 336/2
Change of Registry British to Canadian British to Canadian Danish to Canadian British to Canadian British to Canadian Panamanian to Canadian


CONSTRUCTION DATES FOR SHIPS INVOLVED IN HAULING ARCTIC CARGO
Mr. Forrestall: 1. For (a) 1971 (b) 1972, for each shipping company that secured contracts to haul Arctic cargo, what were the names of the ships
involved, the date of construction of the ships involved and the government's assessment of the physical condition of the ships involved?


Jean Marchand: (a)
		Date of	Physical
Company	Vessel	Construction	Condition of ShipTransworld Shipping	M.V.Global Envoy	1949	Ships complied with applicableLimited	M.V. Cabatern	1955	regulatory requirements andwere certificated accordingly.Feedral Commerce &	M.V. Federal Hudson	1956	as aboveNavigation Co. Ltd.	Branch Lines Ltd.	M.V. Jos. Simard	1964	as aboveM.V. Maplebranch	1958	Chimo Shipping Ltd.	M.V. Voyageur "D"	1958	M.V. Chesley A Crosbie	1964	M.V. Bill Crosbie	1965	M.V. Sir John Crosbie	1962	as aboveM. V. Guard Mavoline	1941	M. V. Cacouna	1958	M.V. Topsail Star	1951	M.V. Andrew C Crosbie	1960	M.V. Percy M Crosbie	1959	

September 5, 1973

Order Paper Questions
		Date of	Physical
Company	Vessel	Construction	Condition of ShipAgence Maritime Inc.	M.V. Fort Kent	1943	as aboveM.V. Fort Levis	1962	M.V. Inland	1950	Braemar Shipping Ltd.	M.V. Fort Chambly	1961	M.V. Fort St. Louis	1963	Federal Commerce &	M.V. Federal Hudson	1956	Navigation Co. Ltd.	M.V. Tavastland	1955	as aboveM.V. Axel Heiberg	1969	M.V. Loma P	1964	M.V. Sable Ferry	1943	TEO 336/2	1969	Branch Lines Ltd.	M.V. Jos Simard	1964	as aboveM.V. Maplebranch	1958	Chimo Shipping Ltd.	M.V. Chesley A Crosbie	1964	M.V. Andrew C Crosbie	1960	M.V. Bill Crosbie	1965	M.V. Sir John Crosbie	1962	M.V. Percy M. Crosbie	1959	as aboveM.V. Conrad Marie	1953	M.V. Maridan "C"	1946	Agence Maritime Ltd.	M.V. Fort Kent	1943	M.V. Fort Lennox	1944	M.V. Inland	1950


NATIONALITY OF REGISTRY OF SHIPS INVOLVED IN ARCTIC RESUPPLY
Mr. Forrestall: For (a) 1971 (b) 1972, for each of the shipping companies that were successful in securing contracts for hauling Arctic cargo,
what were the nationality of registry of each of the ships involved at the time the contracts were awarded and if any changes were made during the life of the contract, what were they?


Jean Marchand: (a)
Company
Transworld Shipping Ltd.
Federal Commerce & Navigation Co. Ltd.
Branch Lines Limited Braemar Shipping Limited Agence Maritime Inc.
Chimo Shipping Limited
o
Vessel
M.V. Global Envoy M.V. Cabatern
M.V. Federal Hudson
M.V. Jos. Simard M.V. Maplebranch
M.V. Fort Chambly M.V. Fort St. Louis
M.V. Fort Kent M.V. Fort Levis M.V. Inland
M.V. Voyageur "D" M.V. Topsail Star M.V. Cacouna M.V. Guard Mavoline M.V. Bill Crosbie M.V. Andrew C Crosbie M.V. Percy M Crosbie M.V. Chesley A Crosbie M.V. Sir John Crosbie
Registry Changes
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
British to	Canadian
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
British to	Canadian
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
6222

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions Company
(b)
Branch Lines Limited Chimo Shipping Limited
Agence Maritime Inc.
Vessel
M.V. Jos. Simard M.V. Maplebranch
M.V. Conrad Marie M.V. Maridan C"
M.V. Andrew C Crosbie M.V. Bill Crosbie M.V. Chesley A Crosbie M.V. Sir John Crosbie M.V. Percy M Crosbie
M.V. Fort Kent M.V. Fort Lennox M.V. Inland
Registry Changes
Canadian	Nil
British to	Canadian
Danish to	Canadian
Canadian	Nil
British to	Canadian
Panamanian to Canadian	
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Canadian	Nil
Federal Commerce & Nav- M.V. Federal Hudson igation Co. Ltd.	M.V. Tavastland
M.V. Axel Heiberg M.V. Lorna P M.V. Sable Ferry Teo 336/2
NATIONALITY OF REGISTRY OF SHIPS NOT INVOLVED IN were not successful in obtaining contracts for hauling Arctic ARCTIC RESUPPLY	cargo, what were the nationalities of registry for each ship
involved?


Mr. Forrestall: For (a) 1971 (b) 1972, for each of the shipping companies that	Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Transport):
(a)
Company	Vessel	RegistryHall Corporation Shipping	M.V. Chemical Transport	Canadian(1969) Ltd.	Gillespie Munro (1969) Ltd.	M.V. Helga Dan	Danish(b)	Transworld Shipping Ltd.	M.V. Wheat King	CanadianM.V. Global Envoy	CanadianM.V. Yankcanuck	CanadianM.V. Northcliffe Hall	CanadianM.V. Cabatern	CanadianHall Corporation Shipping	M.V. Inland Transport	Canadian(1969) Ltd.	M.V. Chemical Transport	CanadianBraemar Shipping Ltd.	M.V. Fort St. Louis	CanadianM.V. Fort Chambly	Canadian

September 5, 1973


CONTRACTS FOR HAULING ARCTIC CARGO BY WATER
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	For the contracts issued in 1971 and 1972 for hauling Arctic cargo by water, were Canadian-owned and Canadian-registered shipping companies and ships given preference and, if not, for what reason?
2.	What is the specific policy of the government with respect to this issue, namely, the preferential treatment afforded to Canadian-owned and registered ships and shipping companies?


Jean Marchand: 1. All ships hauling our Arctic cargo in 1971 and 1972 were Canadian Registered.
2.	Department of Transport tender specifications and contracts require the contractor(s) to guarantee that all ships used to transport Arctic cargo will be Canadian Registered and, if not British built, then duty fully paid. The Canada Shipping Act only requires that ships being registered in Canada be British owned rather than Canadian owned.


GENERAL CONTRACTOR OF MARINE SHIPPING REQUIREMENTS
Mr. Forrestall: Will the contract for 1973 General Contractor for Marine shipping requirements in the hauling of Arctic cargo by water be made with a view to assisting existing Canadian enterprise over international entries and, if not, for what reason?
Order Paper Questions


Jean Marchand: Yes. Tenders are invited from Canadian ship operators and require all ships to be of Canadian Registry.


TRANSPORTATION MODES FOR OFF-LIFTING SEABORNE FREIGHT
Mr. Forrestall: Does the government intend to continue experimenting in improved transportation modes for off-lifting seaborne freight such as by helicopters with respect to haulage of Arctic cargo by water and (a) if so, what steps have been taken to facilitate such experimentation (b) if not, for what reason?


Jean Marchand: The
Ministry of Transport has experimented with and developed the helicopter (skycrane) method of discharge to the point that it is now being offered by commercial companies in competition with conventional methods. Furthermore, hovercraft is being developed as a cargo handling method on the Mackenzie River under Government auspices. The Ministry intends to continue exploring improved methods for discharge of cargo.


CANADIAN REGISTRY OF SHIPS INVOLVED IN ARCTIC RESUPPLY
Mr. Forrestall: For (a) 1971 (b) 1972, for each of the shipping companies which secured contracts to haul Arctic cargo, did they operate a permanent fleet under Canadian registry and, if so, which ones?


Jean Marchand: (a)	Companies Chimo Shipping Limited Agence Maritime Inc.
Branch Lines Limited Federal Commerce & Navigation Co. Ltd (This company operates a permanent Canadian Registered Fleet through subsidiary companies)
Transworld Shipping Ltd.
(b)
Chimo Shipping Limited Agence Maritime Inc.	As above
Branch Lines Limited Federal Commerce & Navigation Co. Ltd.
Permanent Fleet Yes Yes Yes Yes
No


CONTRACT FOR DISHWASHING MACHINES AND GARBAGE DISPOSAL UNITS
Mr. Hales: 1.	Was a contract, GG.2592264-3, LK.2702034, for dishwashing machines and garbage disposal units in the amount of $65,208 awarded to Hobart Manufacturing Co. Ltd., Don Mills, Ontario?
2.	Where tenders called and, if so (a) what are the names and addresses of those who tendered (b) was the lowest tender accepted?
3.	Were there any extra charges over and above the above figure and, if so, what were they?

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
4.	Where were the goods used and by what department of government?
5.	How were suppliers notified of government requirements?


Hon. Jean-Pierre Goyer (Minister of Supply and Services):: Separate contracts were awarded for dishwashing machines and garbage disposal units as follows: LK.2702034, Garbage Disposal Units, and GG.2592264-3 for dishwashing machines. Details follow:
GG.2592264-3, Dishwashing Machines.
1.	Yes. The contract was $48,453.
2.	Yes; (a) Hobart Manufacturing Co. Ltd. Don Mills, Ontario; G. S. Blakeslee & Co. of Canada Ltd., Scarborough, Ontario; (b) Yes.
3.	No.
4.	The machines were shipped to Canadian Forces Bases at: Summerside, P.E.I.; Debert, N.S.; Gagetown, N.B.; Chatham, N.B.; Valcartier, Que.; Mont Apica, Que.; Kingston, Ont.; North Bay, Ont.; Winnipeg, Man.; Alert, N.W.T. Department of National Defence.
5.	By competitive Invitation to Tender.
LK.2702034, Garbage Disposal Units.
1.	Yes. The contract was $16,755.
2.	No; (a) not applicable; (b) not applicable.
3.	No.
4.	Armed Forces Naval Vessels by the Department of National Defence.
5.	Only Hobart Manufacturing Company Limited was notified by sole source tender.


MAINTENANCE COST OF ST. LAWRENCE RIVER CHANNEL DURING WINTER
Mr. Boisvert: What is the cost of maintaining the St. Lawrence River channel during the winter?	_______________________
	Trucks
Victoria	1 more
Saskatoon	5 more
London	19 more
Hamilton	15 more
Windsor 2	same
Kitchener-W aterloo	8 more
Ottawa	1 less
Hull	same
Quebec 3	same
Saint John, N.B.	1 more
Moncton	1 more
St. John's, Nfld.	5 more
1	Includes supervisors, clerical and maintenance personnel.
2	Windsor has been under Government operation for a number of years. Integrated service consisted of a small operation which had remained under contract.
[Mr. Hales.)


Jean Marchand: The
operating cost of icebreakers used to maintain the St. Lawrence River channel during the winter was $1,583,000 for fiscal year 1972-73.


CORPORATIONS AND LABOUR UNIONS RETURNS ACT
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 2,057-Mr. Hellyer: (Supplementary)
What statutory responsibility is vested in the Minister of Labour by the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act?
Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of Labour):: The Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act, (Revised Statutes of Canada 1970, Vol. II, Chapter C-31, Part III, Section 14) provides, amongst other things, that one duplicate of the statement comprised in Section A of each return filed by a union as required by Part II shall be kept on record in an office of the Department of Labour designated by the Minister of Labour for the purpose, and such duplicates shall be made available for inspection in those respective offices by any person, upon application at any reasonable time and upon payment of such fee, not exceeding one dollar in respect of any one corporation or union, as may be prescribed by the regulations.


URBAN MAIL SERVICES
Mr. McKenzie: How many more trucks, full-time and part-time drivers and total employees does the Post Office Department use in the operation of urban mail services in each of the cities of Victoria, Saskatoon, London, Hamilton, Windsor, Kitchener-Waterloo, Ottawa-Hull, Quebec City, Saint John, Moncton and St. John's, Nfld., as compared to the period up to April, 1972 when private contractors handled the collection and distribution of mail service?


Hon. Andre Ouellet (Postmaster General):: Full	Time	Drivers Part Time	Total Employees	5	more	6 less	same6	more	5 more	9	more19	more	7 less	18	more8	more	6 more	17	more1	more	1 less	same9	more	4 less	7	more10	more	2 more	17	more2	more	1 more	3	more1	less	1 less	3	less4	more	2 more	9	more8	more	same	11	more5	more	2 less	3	more
3 Figures for Quebec city only include services which were integrated as part of the integration program announced on November 23, 1971. Actually, most Quebec city urban services were integrated in the fall of 1970.
September 5, 1973

Note: The increase in the number of trucks and drivers can be explained as follows: (a) Some contractors were also engaged in the cartage industry and were able to direct trucks and drivers to postal work as required, (b) Some contractors employed owner-drivers to supplement contract requirements during peak or abnormal periods,
(c)	Some contractors provided incentives for higher productivity. (d) Employees of some contractors were paid on a per item basis and with an incentive plan, worked longer than the 8-hour day in effect for postal drivers, (e) Normal expansion of service to newly developed urban areas.


QUALIFICATIONS FOR POSITION OF CORRECTIONAL OFFICER WITH CANADIAN PENITENTIARY SERVICE
Mr. Coates: 1.	What are the present qualifications, both as to age and education, for applicants for a position as a Correctional Officer with the Canadian Penitentiary Service?
2.	On what date was the present set of qualifications determined and what had been the former level of qualifications from the point of view of age and education?
3.	How many applications were processed for positions as Correctional Officers by the Canadian Penitentiary Service in the fiscal year 1972-73?
4.	Of the total number of applications processed, how many appointments were made to the service as Correctional Officers?
5.	Did all of the appointees meet the basic qualifications for the positions in question and, if not, on how many occasions were the qualifications waived either as to age or education?
6.	In the same period of time, how many persons left the employment of the Canadian Penitentiary Service prior to the normal retirement age?


Hon. James Hugh Faulkner (Secretary of State):: I have been given the following information by the Public Service Commission. 1. There are no age limit qualifications for applicants for a position of Correctional Officer with the Canadian Penitentiary Service other than the legal minimum age stipulated in the Canada Labour (Standards) Code, which refers to provincial legislation, and the age of retirement as provided by the Public Service Superannuation Act. There are no minimum educational requirements for Correctional Officers in terms of diploma,s certificates or years of education. However, the Selection Standard requires that candidates have the "ability normally required to complete secondary school" which may be evidenced either by completion of Secondary School or by passing a test authorized by the Public Service Commission.
2.	A new set of standards was determined in 1972, and the former level of qualifications was flexible insofar as education was concerned and an age limit was in fact 21 to 45 years of age (the top level being waived for veterans).
3.	Two thousand fourteen applications were processed for positions as Correctional Officers in the fiscal year 1972-73.
4.	Five hundred fifty-three appointments were made to the Service as Correctional Officers.
5.	All appointees met the basic qualifications.
6.	One hundred eighty-three Correctional Officers left the employment of the Canadian Penitentiary Service prior to the normal retirement age.
Order Paper Questions NFB FILM "A PROPAGANDA MESSAGE"


Mr. O'Sullivan: 1.	Did the National Film Board produce a film "A Propaganda Message-Un Message de Propagande" Library No. 106C 0371-076?
2.	Was this film commissioned by Information Canada?
3.	What was the total cost of production?
4.	How many prints of this film were made?
5.	Is this film available for distribution across Canada through the National Film Board or Information Canada and, if not, for what reason?
6.	Was this film ever placed on a restricted list by the National Film Board and, if so, for what reason?
7.	Has this film ever been shown on any CBC television outlet station?
8.	Has this film been distributed to film lending libraries outside of Canada and, if so, to what countries?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the National Film Board as follows: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Total: $131,226.
4.	16mm prints in circulation in Canada, 32; 16mm prints in circulation outside Canada, 6; 35mm prints in circulation in Canada, 9.
5.	Yes, the film is available to the Canadian public, free of charge, through the 27 film libraries in NFB offices across Canada.
6.	The film was released in January 1972 for distribution in the commercial theaters in Canada through Columbia Pictures of Canada. As is customary in such circumstances, there was a six-month restriction on 16mm distribution in Canada. The film became available in Canada through NFB 16mm library network in July 1972.
7.	According to the terms of NFB contract with Columbia Pictures for theatrical distribution, "Propaganda Message" will not be available for television distribution until January 1974.
8.	"Propaganda Message" is also being distributed through the following Canadian diplomatic posts: One 16mm print, London, England; one 16mm print, Paris, France; one 16mm print, Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.; one 16mm print, San Francisco, California, U.S.A.; one 16mm print, New York, N.Y., U.S.A.; one 16mm print, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. In addition, the Paris and New York offices of the National Film Board each have a 35mm print for promotion purposes.


CONSTRUCTION OF TWO HARBOUR TUGS
Mr. Munro (Esquimalt-Saanich): Was a contract signed with Vito Steel Boat and Barge Construction of 9425 River Road, Delta, British Columbia, for the construction of two 45 foot harbour tugs to be used at CFB Esquimalt and originally to be built in West Coast shipyards for delivery August 31, 1973 and, if so (a) was the shipbuilding subcontracted to a boat builder elsewhere than in Brish Columbia and, if so, where (b) was there provision in the original contract permitting such subcontracting (c) for what reason was there no safeguard in the contract to ensure that the vessels would be built in West Coast shipyards (d) what is the new delivery date (e) how is delivery to be effected (f) what increase has there been in the original cost of $545,000 (g) what provision is made in the contract for delivery and the cost of delivery?

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions


Jean-Pierre Goyer: A contract was issued to Vito Steel Boat and Barge Construction, 9425 River Road, Delta, B.C., to construct two 45 foot harbour tugs, to be delivered August 31, 1973, for use at CFB Esquimau, (a) No, however, construction of the bare hulls was subcontracted to a company at Wheatley, Ontario, (b) Yes. (c) It is not normal departmental policy to place restrictions on a Canadian prime contractor since he is responsible for satisfactory completion of the contract, (d) No change in delivery date, (e) Delivery will be by the contractor, FOB Esquimalt, B.C. (f) None, (g) The contract provides for delivery to Canadian Forces Base, Esquimalt, B.C. and the cost is included in the contract price.


MULTICULTURAL PROGRAM NEWSPAPER SUPPLEMENT
Mr. Nelson: 1.	In how many ethnic newspapers was the four page supplement outlining the multicultural program inserted by the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism?
2.	What was the total cost of inserting the aforementioned supplements?


James Hugh Faulkner: 1.
One hundred twenty-five.
2.	$230,745.


STORAGE OF NATIONAL MUSEUMS ARTIFACTS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	(a) In what areas of Canada (b) at what addresses are artifacts of historical significance being presently stored for the National Museums of Canada?
2.	What programmes or funding levels are budgeted for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1974 to upgrade such facilities, in terms of climate control, restoration facilities and other factors essential to the proper preservation of artifacts kept for future generations of Canadians?
3.	Will the government consider giving the highest priority to undertaking programmes to upgrade and maintain such storage areas to ensure that artifacts held for future generations of Canadians are protected fully against the ravages of time?


John Mercer Reid: I am informed by the National Museums of Canada and the Department of Public Works as follows: The answer is based on the assumption that all artifacts of the National Museums of Canada are of historical significance: 1. (a) Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba; (b) Uplands Airport, Display Area; Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe Hangers 66, 67 and 68, 1868 St. Laurent Blvd., Ottawa; Lome Building, Elgin and Slater Streets, Ottawa; Ashton Press Building, Bells Corners, Ontario; 1523 Laper-riere Ave., Ottawa, Ontario; Victoria memorial Museum Building, Metcalfe and McLeod Streets, Ottawa, Ontario; Canadian Forces Base Borden, Camp Borden, Ontario; Canadian Forces Base Shilo, Shilo, Manitoba; 25 COD 6585 Hochelage St., Montreal, P.Q. (school) 6060 Notre Dame, Montreal, P.Q. (depot); Canadian Government Printing Bureau Building, Sacred Heart Blvd., Hull, P.Q.; 7 Murray Street, Ottawa, Ontario; 1306 Wellington Street, Ottawa, Ontario; 330 Sussex Drive, Ottawa, Ontario; 350 Sussex Drive, Ottawa, Ontario; 2818 Bank Street, Ottawa, Ontario.

2.	The following buildings, where artifacts are being stored, are budgeted for upgrading in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1974: Victoria Memorial Museum, $690,000; Phase II renovations; 330 Sussex Drive $11,000; air conditioning study.
3.	Yes.


RECOMMENDATIONS OF PERFORMANCE ASSESSMENT COMMITTEES-ES GROUP
Mr. Brewin: With reference to the Agreement of July 1969 between the Treasury Board and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada for employees in the economic, sociology and statistics group of federal employees where provision was made for movement to the first of the four remaining rates in the ESI range and to the sixth rate in the ES2 range on the recommendation of a performance assessment committee and approval of the deputy head, has the deputy head withheld his approval to recommendations of performance assessment committees in any cases between the commencement of the Agreement in July 1969 up to March 31, 1973 and, if so, what are the names of the persons concerned and what reason, if any, did the deputy head give for his withholding of approval?


Hon. C. M. Drury (President of the Treasury Board):: To the extent of available departmental records, there have been 33 instances in which a deputy head has withheld his approval of performance assessment committee recommendations to move an employee to the upper portions of the ES-1 and 2 salary ranges during the period July 1969 to March 1973.
Reasons for withholding approval were: (1) insufficient length and depth of experience; (2) performance considered not sufficiently outstanding to warrant further progression in the salary range at the time.


BROCHURE ENTITLED &quot;WORKING WITH YOU BETWEEN JOBS&quot;
Mr. Alexander: 1.	How many copies of "Working With You Between Jobs", issued by the Unemployment Insurance Commission, were printed?
2.	What was the cost of (a) printing (b) the plates for the said printing?
3.	How many copies of the printing were distributed?
4.	What firm, or firms, by way of names and addresses were involved in the printing and distribution?


Mr. Mark MacGuigan (Parliament Secretary to Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: 1. There is no UIC publication such as "Working with You Between Jobs". This title was a slogan used earlier this year for two brochures forming part of the information kit on the new approach and on the proposed decentralization of Offices of the Commission.
2.	(a) and (b), $2,430.31.
3.	Two thousand three hundred fifty (the total of the two brochures).
4.	The printing was done by the Queen's Printer and the distribution by the Commission's staff.
September 5, 1973


R CLASS ICEBREAKERS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Has the government approved final construction of any of the R class icebreakers and, if so (a) on what date will contracts be announced (b) what is the level of funding presently authorized for such construction?
2.	For how many such R class icebreakers has approval in principle been given?


Jean Marchand: 1. (a) November 1, 1973. (b) $17,500,000.
2.	One.


REVENUE FROM AND PROBLEMS RELATED TO ALCOHOL
Mr. Mather: 1.	What was the total federal revenue from beer, wine and spirits in 1972?
2.	What, in the same year, was the estimated cost in illness, motor vehicle fatalities, social problems and crime related to alcoholism?
3.	What, in the same year, was the total federal expenditure on anti-alcoholism programs?


John Mercer Reid: In so far as the Department of National Revenue, Customs and Excise, Statistics Canada, and the Department of National Health and Welfare are concerned, the answer is as follows: 1. Final revenue statistics are not yet available for the fiscal year 1972-73. The following are tentative figures for this period with respect to federal revenue collected by way of Excise Duty and Excise Tax on beer, wine and spirits. These figures do not include revenue from sales tax imposed by the Excise Tax Act as such funds are recorded in one account without any distinction as to sources. Fiscal year: 1972-73, beer, $166,833,492.67; wine, $10,006,021.88; spirits, $249,312,084.19; total $426,151,598.74.
2.	Statistics Canada does not collect data or make estimates on the cost of illness, nor on social problems or crime related to alcoholism. Statistics Canada does collect data on the number of motor vehicle fatalities where the ability of the driver had been impaired by alcohol, or where pedestrians who were hit and killed by motor vehicles had been drinking. However, data are not yet available for 1972.
3.	Under the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services and the Medicare Acts, a considerable amount of money is spent annually on the treatment of alcoholics. Because such detailed information is not recorded under these programs, even an approximation of such costs cannot be determined. Under the Canada Assistance Plan, the federal government shares with the provinces and municipalities in the cost of providing institutional care, mainly in the form of half-way houses, and counselling and social rehabilitation services to alcoholics. Again it is impossible to isolate such costs. Also, certain projects which deal in part but not entirely with problems relating to alcohol abuse have also received funding under the Non-Medical Use of Drugs program. Total expenditures for these projects have increased from $28,935 in 1971-72 (the first year of the Non-Medical Use of Drugs program) to $335,235 in 1972-73. In 1971-72, the Department spent the following specifically on anti-alcoholism programs; National Welfare
Order Paper Questions
Grants, $26,128; Sustaining Health Grant, $15,000; Medical Services, $34,205; National Health Grant, $43,618.


DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS- EMPLOYMENT OF FRANCOPHONES
Mr. MacKay: 1.	Is the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs having problems employing Francophones and reaching French Canadian consumers and, if so, for what reasons?
2.	What percentage of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs employees are francophones and what are their positions?


Hon. Herb Gray (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: 1. No.
2.	Thirty-one per cent Francophones falling into the following groups and categories as of 31 May 1973.
Senior Executive Category
Professional and Scientific Category: Auditing; Chemistry; Economics, sociology and statistics; Law; Scientific Regulation.
Administrative and Foreign Service Category; Administration Services; Administrative Trainee; Financial Administration; Information Services; Organization and Methods; Personnel Administration; Program Administration; Purchasing and Supply; Commerce.
Technical Category: Technical Inspection; Products Inspection; Engineering and Scientific Support.
Administrative Support Category: Data Processing; Clerical and Regulatory; Office Equipment Operations; Secretarial Stenographic.
Operational Category: General Services.


CANADA COUNCIL GRANTS TO MUSICAL COMPOSERS IN QUEBEC
Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): Has Canada Council granted scholarships to musical composers from Quebec during the fiscal year 1972-73 and, if so (a) how many (b) for what amount (c) to how many persons in the constituency of Bellechasse?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the Canada Council as follows: (a) Thirteen grants, (b) The total amount of these grants was $20,690.
(c)	None.


OFY-1973 PROJECTS IN NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Marshall: 1.	How many OFY projects were approved in Newfoundland in (a) 1972 (b) 1973?
2.	What was the average cost per project for the approval process?
3.	What will be the total cost of the OFY Program in 1973 for Newfoundland?
4.	How many jobs were created by the OFY Program in 1973 in Newfoundland?
5.	In 1973 how many (a) students (b) non-students have been hired by OFY projects in Newfoundland?
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Order Paper Questions


James Hugh Faulkner: 1. (a)
145; (b) 256.
2.	The Administrative expenses of Opportunities for Youth are not constructed in such a manner as to provide this type of information.
3.	As of June 18, grants to 1973 OFY Program projects in Newfoundland amount to $1,470,694.
4.	There are 1894 project participants in the 1973 OFY Program in Newfoundland.
5.	In the 1973 OFY Program in Newfoundland, (a) 1753 Project participants are students, and (b) 141 project participants are non-students.


INQUIRY INTO THE SINKING OF THE &quot;LADY AUDETTE&quot;
Mr. Howie: To whom and how much was paid to non-departmental personnel for services rendered in the inquiry into the sinking of the Lady Audette?


Jean Marchand: Name	Amount
BlaiSe Hache	$ 15.00
Eugene Turbide	15.00
Alphonse Finn	60.00
Dorianne Noel	15.00
Simeon Lanteigne	45.00
Romeo Michon	15.00
Jean R. Hemond	2,900.00
Aldeo Gionet	225.00
Edoardo Weis	100.00
Conrad Blanchard	45.00
Henri-Jean Blanchard	15.00
Donat Vienneau	15.00
Audber & Winston Matthews	30.00
Prospere Legere	30.00
Stan Dugas	15.00
Rejean Robichaud	15.00
Abbe Legere	15.00
Philorome Chiasson	15.00
Leo Paulin	30.00
Gelas Hache	30.00
Elphage Hache	15.00
Clifford Chiasson	15.00
Bernard M. Deschenes	16,000.00
Willie Deraspe	1,500.00
Rodolphe Hache	45.00
Raymond Savoie	15.00
Thomas L. McGloan	6,852.50
Cove Hatfield & Company Ltd.	6,550.00
Claude Le Bouthillier	15.00
O. A. Nielson	500.00
Total	$35,152.50


FEDERAL FUNDING-MISAWA HOMES OF CANADA LIMITED
Mr. Jelinek: What government agencies, if any, are involved with Misawa Homes of Canada Limited and has there ever been at any time any federal funding of this Company?


John Mercer Reid: In so far as the Department of External Affairs is concerned, the department is presently seeking authority for payment of a $37,500 contribution to match identical contributions by the government of the province of Manitoba and the Misawa Homes Company Limited of Japan for the construction by Misawa Homes of Canada Limited of 10 prefabricated housing units to assist in the resettlement of victims of the Westman Islands disaster. In so far as the Department of Manpower and Immigration is concerned, a Training-in-Industry agreement was signed on July 25, 1972 at an estimated Canada cost of $31,595.40 for the training of 42 workers. In so far as the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is concerned, an offer of incentive assistance in the amount of $282,377 was accepted on April 28, 1972 by Misawa Homes of Canada Limited for a facility at Gimli, Manitoba; a payment in the amount of $203,078 was made on April 18, 1973.


POST OFFICES IN CHARLEVOIX CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Caouette (Charlevoix): 1.	Which post offices in the constituency of Charlevoix serve more than 1,000 persons?
2.	During the past three years, who tendered for maintenance contracts in each such post office?
3.	Who obtained the contract and at what price?


John Mercer Reid: I am informed by the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works as follows: 1. We do not have a listing as to the number of persons. We have householder lists which give the following figures: Forestville, 1,052; La Malbaie, 1,035.
2.	Forestville, P.Q. (Maintenance work). Tenders were opened on February 17, 1970. Three tenders were received:
1.	Charles Roy, Forestville, P.Q; 2. Gilles Lessard, Forestville, P.Q.; 3. Paul E. Lavoie, Forestville, P.Q. La Malbaie, P.Q. (Maintenance work). There were no tenders called for maintenance work at this location as the service is provided by the caretaker.
3.	Forestville, P.Q. The contract was awarded to the lowest bidder, Charles Roy, on February 23, 1970, in the amount of $239.50 per month.
September 5, 1973


POST OFFICE, TOLEDO, ONTARIO
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Was the Post Office in Toledo, Ontario moved on or about March 19, 1973 and, if so, to where and for what reason?
2.	Was the Post Office in Toledo, Ontario again moved on or about June 17, 1973 to the Shell Service Station in Toledo, Ontario and, if so, for what reason?
3.	What permanent plans does the Post Office Department have for the location of the Post Office in Toledo, Ontario?
4.	Is the position of Postmaster vacant in Toledo, Ontario or is it about to become vacant and, if so, does the Department intend to invite applications by public advertisement for this position?


André Ouellet: 1. The Toledo, Ontario Post Office was moved on 19 March 1973 from the Shell Service Station to the Postmaster's residence due to the bankruptcy of the business.
2.	On June 15, the Postmaster moved the office back to the Service Station as she managed to rent the original postal space from the new management of the station.
3.	Postal premises for such post offices as Toledo must be provided solely by the Postmaster. There are no plans to relocate the office since the premises now are suitable.
4.	The position of Postmaster at this office is not vacant at the present time.


TRIP OF MINISTER OF FINANCE TO REGINA, JUNE, 1973
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Was the Minister of Finance in Regina on June 13, 1973 and, if so, was such trip paid for by public funds?
2.	What was the total cost to the government of such trip by the Minister including any public expenditures for persons accompanying him?
3.	Did the purpose of this trip include making an address to the Saskatchewan Liberal Association?


Hon. John N. Turner (Minister of Finance):: 1. (a) Yes. (b) No.
2.	Nil. The minister's expenses were paid by the Liberal Party of Saskatchewan.
3.	Yes.


LIP-NUMBER OF JOBS PROVIDED
Mr. Alexander: 1.	(a) What method is used to calculate the number of jobs provided under the Local Initiatives Program with an example of the calculation for the years 1971-72 and 1972-73 (b) how many jobs were provided in those periods as well as in 1973 to date?
2.	(a) What method is used to calculate the number of persons employed under the Local Initiatives Program for the years 197172 and 1972-73 with an example of the calculation (b) how many persons were employed in those periods as well as in 1973 to date?


Hon. Robert K. Andras (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: 1. (a) The method used to calculate the number of jobs provided under the Local Initiatives Program for 1971-72 and 1972-73 was identical. For each project the highest number of jobs for any one month recorded in the contract between the Department of Manpower and Immigration and the sponsor of the project was considered to have been created for that project, e.g. if the contract stated that the jobs created would be as follows:
Order Paper Questions
No. of Jobs, January, fifteen; February, sixteen; March, eighteen; April, fifteen; May, fourteen. Eighteen was taken as the number of jobs created for the project. The sum of these figures provides the number of jobs created under the Local Initiatives Program for 1971-72 and 1972-73; (b) Jobs created under the 1971-72 program, 92,321; Jobs created under the 1972-73 program, 85,811 to August 2, 1973.
2. (a) and (b) Information concerning the number of persons actually employed under the Local Initiatives Program 1971-72 and 1972-73 is not available. Sponsors were only required to report the number of manweeks of word carried out under the project and no information was sought on the number of people actually employed.


MARITIME COMMAND-SEABED DETECTION DEVICES
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	What plans does the Department of National Defence have for permanent seabed, active and passive, detection devices?
2.	What is the nature of existing capability with regard to permanent seabed detective devices?


Hon. James Richardson (Minister of National Defence):: 1 and 2. It is not considered to be in the national interest to disclose Canadian plans or capability in respect of seabed detection systems.


UPGRADING OF ICEBREAKERS
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	In what specific modifications is the government considering to upgrade 3 heavy and 5 medium icebreakers over the next five years as indicated in answer to Question No. 1,900?
2.	To what degree will the vessels be available to Maritime Command for the purpose of a military presence in the Canadian Arctic?


Jean Marchand: 1. CCGS LABRADOR-Increased power and modifications in the engine room and accommodation. CCGS JOHN A. MacDONALD-Increased power and bow modification. CCGS NORMAN McLEOD ROGERS-Hull strengthening. As to the medium icebreakers we are considering modifications to the bows. Studies are under way to see to what extent their power should be increased.
2. Canadian Coast Guard ships would not normally be available to Maritime Command. The Coast Guard and Canadian Forces already co-operate closely in the north. Every year, Canadian Forces officers travel aboard Coast Guard ships in the north. This season, CCGS SIR WILLIAM ALEXANDER will be dedicated entirely to a DND mission. This co-operation will be strengthened as required subject to Coast Guard commitments.


ARCTIC ICEBREAKER CAPABILITY
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	Does Canada believe that it has at present an absolute (a) technological (b) practical lead in Arctic icebreaker capability?
2.	Does the government believe that this lead can be sustained without active building programmes and prototype construction?


Jean Marchand: 1. (a)
The Coast Guard has established an icebreaker develop-
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September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
ment group, part of whose duties is to keep the Coast Guard abreast of the latest technological developments throughout the world; (b) In terms of the Canadian Arctic, the Coast Guard has more expertise in building and operating ships than any other nation.
2.	Yes.


REPLACEMENT OF CANADIAN COAST GUARD &quot;DETECTOR&quot;
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	(a) On what date will the survey and sounding vessel Canadian Coast Guard Detector, now 58 years old; be replaced (b) with what will it be replaced?
2.	Will consideration be given to having this vessel preserved for historical purposes?


Jean Marchand: 1. (a)
CCGS DETECTOR is still a reliable and active vessel with a number of years of service left in her. There is, therefore, no requirement for an immediate replacement; (b) Not applicable.
2.	If sufficient interest and funds are available, this will be considered at the end of her service life.


REPLACEMENT OF CCGS &quot;ERNEST LAPOINTE&quot;
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	On what date will the light icebreaker, survey and sounding vessel Canadian Coast Guard ERNEST LAPOINTE, now 43 years old, be replaced and with what will it be replaced?
2.	Will such replacement vessel have ice capability and (a) if so, of what nautre, (b) if not, for what reason?


Jean Marchand: 1.
CCGS ERNEST LAPOINTE has still many years of active service left and there are no plans to replace her at present.
2.	Not applicable.


REPLACEMENT OF &quot;CCGS N.B. McLEAN&quot;
Mr. Forrestall: 1.	On what date will Canadian Coast Guard vessel N.B. McLEAN, now 43 years old, be replaced and with what will it be replaced?
2.	Will such vessel have ice capability and (a) if so, of what nature (b) if not, for what reason?


Jean Marchand: 1.
CCGS N.B. McLEAN has been reboilered this year and there are no plans to replace her at present.
2.	Not applicable.


CONSTRUCTION COST OF CNR TO DATE
Mr. Allard: What is the total construction cost of CNR to date?


Jean Marchand: The management of the Canadian National Railways advises as follows: In the absence of a precise definition of "total construction cost" it is assumed that the question refers to the Total Property Investment in Road, Equipment and

Other Physical Properties as at December 31, 1972. These figures are shown in the Consolidated Balance Sheet on pages 38 and 52 of Canadian National Railways Annual Report for 1972 and on pages 43 and 57 in the Property Investment Statement. Reference should also be made to Note 1: Property Investment on pages 40 and 54 of the report in connection with the bases for accounting for properties and equipment.


POWER CORPORATION OF CANADA, LIMITED
Mr. Gauthier (Roberval): 1.	To the knowledge of the government (a) who is the president of the Power Corporation Company (b) who are the directors (c) what are the names of its subsidiaries (d) what is the value of its commercial operations?
2.	Is it a Canadian-controlled corporation and, if so, in what percentage?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: 1. As reported in the Annual Summary for the period ending March 31, 1973 filed with the Corporations Branch: (a) Mr. Jean Parisien is president of Power Corporation of Canada, Limited, (b) The directors of Power Corporation of Canada, Limited are: Mr. Wilbrod Bherer, Mr. A. E. Campeau, Mr. Peter D. Curry, Mr. Louis Desmarais, Mr. Jean-Paul Gignac, Mr. W. Earle McLaughlin, Mr. A. D. Nesbitt, Mr. Paul Desmarais, Mr. Paul Britton Paine, Mr. Jean Parisien, Mr. Claude Pratte, Hon. J. P. Robarts, P.C., Q.C., Mr. R. C. Scrivener, Mr. J. M. Sea-brook, Mr. P. N. Thomson, Mr. W. I. M. Turner, (c) Subsidiaries are: Canada Steamship Lines, Limited; Dominion Glass Company Limited; Laurentide Financial Corporation Ltd.; The Imperial Life Assurance Company of Canada; The Investors Group, (d) Total assets for 1972, $422,690,000.
2.	1970 and 1971 CALURA returns indicate that the
majority of shares issued, in all classes of shares, were issued in Canada. However, the department does not have information as to nationality of ownership of shares.


SALE OF LAND ON NORTH SHORE OF VANCOUVER WATERFRONT
Mr. Reynolds: 1.	Did the National Harbours Board sell a 50-acre site on the North Shore of Vancouver Waterfront, presently owned by the Fullerton Lumber Company, in 1971 and, if so, how much did the Company pay the National Harbours Board for this property?
2.	Has the government purchased this site or does it have it under option, and, if so, how much has the government paid for this site or how much does it intend to pay?
3.	Is the Fullerton Lumber Company substantially controlled by foreign interest and, if so, who are the principals?


Jean Marchand: The
National Harbours Board advises as follows: 1. The Fullerton Lumber Company received Letters Patent in September 1971 covering 49.08 acres fronting Block 23 DL 265 North Vancouver. Authority to issue Letters Patent originated from a Department of Marine and Fisheries' lease dated 1908. The said lease contained the provision that the Crown would Quit Claim to the lessees (originally J. P. Fell and H. Heywood-Lonsdale) any portion of the lease-
September 5, 1973

hold reclaimed by the lessees under authority of NWPA. By virtue of the old Marine and Fisheries' lease, the lessee was able to purchase the property for $1. We are advised that the Fullerton Lumber Company spent something in the neighbourhood of $1,500,000 for fill material. Further, the lessee has paid lease rental to the appropriate government agency, i.e. Department of Marine and Fisheries, Vancouver Harbour Commissioners and National Harbours Board since 1908 at rates that have been current in the community throughout the years.
2.	No.
3.	The Fullerton Lumber Company has title to the property and the Company's principals are: James Fullerton, James Fullerton III, Robert Morely and Robert J. Sim-monsen. The Registrar of Companies has the same address for all four of these men viz 1200 Roan Oake Building, Minneapolis, Minnesota, U.S.A.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION-OTTAWA DISTRICT OFFICE
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Has there been a general breakdown in efficiency in dealing with unemployment insurance claimants by the UIC Office in Ottawa and, if so, what immediate steps does the government plan to take to improve this situation?
2.	Who is the Manager of the UIC Claims Office in Ottawa and what was the date of his appointment?
3.	Will steps be taken to immediately improve service to Members of Parliament and their staffs when they make inquiries to this Office concerning problems with constituents' claims?
4.	Is the government taking immediate action to improve the public relations image of this Office and, if so, what is being done?


Mark R. MacGuigan: 1. There has not been a general breakdown in the efficiency of the Ottawa Office of the Unemployment Insurance Commission. An analysis of the performance of the office in the last few months shows that service to the public has been improving, in that claimants are being dealt with more quickly and inquiries concerning difficult cases have been reducing.
2.	The manager is Mr. Laurent Ledoux who was appointed April 2, 1973.
3.	The Office has made constant efforts to provide effective service to the nine Members of Parliament in the area served by the office. The Ottawa District Office has staff specially trained to handle inquiries efficiently and as quickly as possible. The results indicate that this service serves a very useful purpose. In addition, the plans with respect to the decentralization of its services that the Commission is now putting into effect include opening a number of other offices in the area, which will further improve the service to the public.
4.	It is not the policy, in so far as the UIC is concerned, to run a campaign, at a local level, to improve the public relations image of any district or regional office. Locally it is more a question of service than of advertising. The image campaign is usually done, for the federal government departments, corporations or agencies, on a national level, through mass medias, brochures, information sheets,
Order Paper Questions
etc, and it applies, in general, to every local offices across the country.


EXPANSION OF ROBERTS BANK SUPER PORT
Mr. Reynolds: 1.	Is there a detailed plan for the expansion of Roberts Bank super Port and, if so, what is it?
2.	Have tenders been called for any dredging for the Roberts Bank super Port?
3.	Has an environmental study been done or is one being planned before any of this work is continued?
4.	Are there any plans to meet with the Municipality of Delta to consider road access to any expansion of the Port, availability of water and services from the municipality to the super Port?


Jean Marchand: The
National Harbours Board advises as follows: 1. No detailed plan has been prepared to date; there is a preliminary sketch of a proposed expansion.
2.	No.
3.	An environmental study is currently under way and will be completed prior to any submission being prepared for Treasury Board approval in principle.
4.	Yes, in due course as present planning matures.


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Labour increase from nil in 1963 to 49 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,091 on March 26, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: There have been several factors leading to the increase in the number of staff in the Public Service earning $20,000 or more a year. Increases in salaries and total growth of the Public Service have been two important factors. For example, a salary of $20,000 in the Public Service in 1973 is roughly equivalent to a salary of only $11,500 in 1963, allowing for the various wage increases during the intervening period. This rate of increase was generally comparable to the national trend. In 1963 the Public Service included approximately
154,000	continuing full-time employees. Of this number, about 2,330, or 1.5 per cent, earned $11,500 or more a year. At the present time, the Public Service includes approximately 209,000 continuing full-time employees with about 6,230, or 3 per cent, earning in excess of $20,000. The doubling in the percentage of staff earning this level of salary can be explained by the vastly increased complexity of the responsibilities of government during the past decade. The federal spending program has grown from $7.2 billion in 1964-65 to $18.4 billion in the current year. This has necessitated both an increase in management personnel and an expansion in the types of research, planning and advisory staff of the type that receive salaries in this range throughout the Canadian economy.

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions


DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources increase from 109 in 1970 to 285 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,046 on March 28, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of the Solicitor General increase from nil in 1963 to 182 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,093 on April 2, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of National Health and Welfare increase from 282 in 1970 to 508 in 1973, as stated in answer to Questions No. 1,077 on April 4, 1973 and No. 1,095 on April 11, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Post Office Department increase from nil in 1963 to 146 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,084 on April 4, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


INFORMATION CANADA PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of Information Canada increase from six in 1970 to 25 in 1973 as stated in answer to Question No. 1,083 on April 11, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Public Works increase from four in 1963 to 143 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,092 on May 14, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Agriculture increase from nil in 1963 to 360 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,096 on May 30, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason does the Department of the Environment have a staff of 425 earning over $20,000 a year as stated in answer to Question No. 1,045 on March 28, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason does the Department of the Secretary of State have a staff of 105 earning over $20,000 a year as stated in answer to Question No. 1,087 on March 14, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs increase from 28 in 1970 to 82 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 998 on March 14, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Veterans Affairs increase from two in 1963 to 265 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,094 on March 12, 1973?
September 5, 1973


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of National Revenue, Taxation increase from nil in 1963 to 313 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,089 on April 2, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of External Affairs increase from 13 in 1963 to 284 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,086 on March 28, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason did staff, earning $20,000 or more a year, of the Department of Finance increase from one in 1963 to 80 in 1973, as stated in answer to Question No. 1,088 on March 12, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2,382	answered this day.


NUMBER OF CENSUS-FARMS IN CANADA
Mr. Mather: What was the number of farms in Canada in 1950, 1960 and 1970?


Mr. Herb Breau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce):: Statistics Canada reports that: Data on the number of farms in Canada are not available for the years 1950, 1960 and 1970, however, data are available on the number of census-farms in Canada for the years 1951, 19161 and 1971.
Year	No. of Census Farms
1951	623,091
1961	480,903
1971	366,128
A "census-farm" is defined as an agricultural holding of 1 acre or more with sales of agricultural products during the previous 12 months of $50 or more.
Order Paper Questions


ONTARIO REGIONAL OFFICE HEADQUARTERS
Mr. Atkey: 1.	For what reason is the Department of Manpower and Immigration Regional Office in Toronto planning to move into the Canada Square Building at the corner of Eglinton Avenue at Yonge Street, when the Regional Office recommended against such a move, favouring instead the Olympic and York Tower at King Street and York Street offering equivalent accommodations and facilities at a lower price?
2.	Will the above offices in the Canada Square Building be serviced by the WATS line telephone system and, if so, what is the additional cost of this system above and beyond ordinary telephone equipment and service in view of the fact that Bell Canada does not normally provide this service north of St. Clair Avenue?


Mark R. MacGuigan: 1. Although initially the Department of Manpower and Immigration and Immigration Ontario Regional Office indicated a preference for the York Centre Building, on the basis of final cost figures provided for both the Canada Square Building and the York Centre Building, the Ontario Regional Office recommended the leasing of office accommodation in the Canada Square Building.
2.	Yes; there will be no additional cost for the WATS line telephone service as Bell Canada normally provides this service north of St. Clair Avenue.


TREASURY BOARD PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: Has the staff of the Treasury Board earning $20,000 or more a year, increased from 150 in 1963 to 319 in 1973 and, if so, for what reason?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY, TRADE AND COMMERCE PERSONNEL
Mr. Reynolds: For what reason does the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce have a staff of 698 earning over $18,000 a year as stated in answer to Question No. 201 on February 5, 1973?


John Mercer Reid: See answer to question No.
2.382	answered this day.


GRANTS TO FAMILY PLANNING CLINICS
Mr. Leggatt: 1.	What was the total amount of money granted to family planning clinics during the fiscal year 1972-73 and what is the estimated amount for 1973-74?
2.	What was the total amount of money granted to groups (excluding family planning clinics) engaged in sex education, family planning, birth control counselling, abortion counselling and venereal disease counselling during the fiscal year 1972-73 and what is the estimated amount for 1973-74?
3.	What were the reported number of venereal disease incidents in Canada during 1970, 1971 and 1972?

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions


John Mercer Reid: I am informed by the Departments of National Health and Welfare, Manpower and Immigration and Statistics Canada as follows: 1. (a) Total amount of money granted to family planning clinics during the fiscal year 1972-73, $118,767; (b) Estimated amount for 1973-74, approximately the same; (a) Total amount of money granted to groups (excluding family planning clinics) engaged primarily in sex education, family planning, and birth control counselling during the fiscal year 1972-73, $1,031,233; (b) Estimated amount for 1973-74, approximately the same; 1970, $34,045; 1971, $36,894; 1972, $44,577.
2.	1971-72, $342,852; 1972-73, $303,888 paid out as of July 16, 1973; 1972-73, $225,371 estimated for extentions for May to November 1973.
3.	The number of venereal disease notifications in Canada for the years 1970, 1971, and 1972 were as follows;
1970	1971	1972Gonococcal infections	31,544	34,405	41,467Syphillis	2,501	2,489	3,064Other venereal diseases	3	3	5Total	34,048	36,897	44,536SUMMER REGISTRATION OF	STUDENTS AT 100	YOUVIL


PLACE, QUEBEC CITY
Mr. Godin: 1.	During the summer, how many students registered at the placement office established especially for them at 100 Youville Place, Quebec City?
2.	How many were offered jobs and what are their names and addresses?


Mark R. MacGuigan: 1. As of 10
July, 1973, there were 8,611 students registered at the placement office established especially for them at 100 Youville Place, Quebec City. Complete statistics will not be available until September.
2.	As of 10 July, 1973, 2,700 of these students were referred to jobs of which 1,044 were placed in employment. Again, complete statistics will not be available until September. It is not the policy of the Department to publish the names and addresses of job applicants.


COLLISION BETWEEN &quot;GREENPEACE III&quot; AND FRENCH NAVAL VESSEL &quot;LA PAIMPOLAISE&quot;
Mr. Wagner: Has the Department of External Affairs requested from the French Government damages due the Greenpeace III as a result of the ramming attack of the French during the last Mururoa nuclear test and (a) if so, on what date (b) if not, for what reason?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: As a result of the collision of his ketch the Greenpeace III with the French naval vessel, "La Paim-polaise", Mr. McTaggart the owner, through his legal coun-

sel, with whom the Department of External Affairs has been in close touch, requested the French government to pay compensation. Earlier this year, the French government denied any liability for the collision and declined to pay compensation to Mr. McTaggart.
The Department of External Affairs, has, on several occasions, before and after that denial, made representations to the French authorities in respect of Mr. McTag-gart's claim and is continuing to use its good offices with the French authorities with a view to having the French government reconsider their position so that a settlement of the matter can be reached in a manner satisfactory to both parties. The latest Canadian demarche was incorporated in a note of June 8, 1973 delivered to the French Foreign Ministry by our Embassy in Paris.
International law normally requires that local remedies must first be exhausted before a state can consider espousing the claim of one of its citizens against a foreign state. Therefore, in addition to representations respecting Mr. McTaggart's claim for compensation, the Canadian Embassy in Paris was instructed to seek advice in France as to what legal remedies might be available to Mr. McTaggart there. The Embassy's lawyers expect to complete their study of this matter shortly.


LIP-P-P JANITORIAL SERVICE, VERDUN
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Has P-P Janitorial Service, 258 1st Avenue, Verdun, ever received a LIP grant from the government and, if so (a) what were the amounts of any grants received (b) on what date or dates were applications received for such grants (c) who were the applications signed by (d) what are the names of all persons who recommended such grants to the government?
2.	Has any grant given to P-P Janitorial Service been recently extended and, if so, for how long and what is the amount of money involved in the extension?


Robert Knight Andras: l. Yes. (a) for 1971-72, $157,930; for 1972-73, $175,476-as of July 10, 1973; (b) January 7, 1972 and November 2, 1972; (c) Patrick Paterson; (d) Patrick Barry, Napoleon Lauzon, Roger Pepin.
2.	Yes. October 12, 1973, for $111,126.


NEW HORIZONS PROJECT
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many New Horizons project applications (a) were received (b) were approved throughout Canada as of May 31, 1973?
2.	By province, as of May 31, 1973 (a) what was the number of projects (i) received (ii) approved (b) what was the amount of funds granted.


Hon. Marc Lalonde (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: As of May 31st, 1973: 1. (a) 1,868; (b) 630.
September 5, 1973


MOUNT HOPE AIRPORT
Mr. O'Sullivan.: 1.	Has the government conducted any study of the possible effects of air and noise pollution from the proposed expansion of facilities and use at Mount Hope Airport?
2.	Has any such study been requested by the Department of Transport?
3.	Has the government received any representations concerning the possible medical implications of the proposed expansion and, if so, from whom?


Jean Marchand: 1. The
Ministry of Transport has conducted extensive studies in terms of noise contours at Mount Hope Airport. MOT has not yet studied possible air pollution. See answer (2) below.
2.	Terms of reference for studies on possible air pollution are now nearing completion, and such studies will shortly be undertaken by an agency other than MOT.
3.	Yes. The brief of the Hamilton Academy of Medicine which was sent to Hamilton City Council was made available to Ministry officials in Toronto and Ottawa on June 14th. The Minister was further verbally briefed by Dr. Pengelly on behalf of the Academy at a meeting on July 5th.


INCREASE IN TRAFFIC ON NORTH SYDNEY TO PORT-AUX-BASQUES FERRY SERVICE
Mr. Marshall: Has there been an increase in ferry service by, (a) 12.6 per cent in passengers; (b) 13.0 per cent in automobiles; (c) 62.6 per cent in trucks; between Port-aux-Basques and North Sydney and, if so, what action is being taken to cope with the steady increase beyond the one additional ship being built?


Jean Marchand: The
traffic increases given are correct average increases for the 1972 year, except that the increase in trucks was 28 per cent rather than 62.6 per cent. To cope with these increases, an additional passenger vessel has been chartered for the period 1973-1977. Addition of this vessel and some operational adjustments in the service will increase the passenger/automobile movement capacity by 30 per cent for the summer peak season of 1973. The vessel under charter is also able to carry trucks. Design studies are underway for new ferries to carry passengers and high-
Order Paper Questions
way vehicles to meet the demands of the future. The requirements of the Gulf service are under constant review and depending on the development of traffic movements, additional vessels may be chartered pending completion of expansion of the Canadian-built fleet. Chartered vessels will continue to be manned by Canadian crews.


HARBOUR FACILITIES-CORNER BROOK, NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Marshall: Has the Minister of Transport received a brief from users of pier and storage facilities at Corner Brook, Newfoundland, indicating that facilities had proved insufficient for 1972 volume of traffic and, if so, is it the intention of the Department to provide an additional 21,000 square feet outside storage space?


Jean Marchand: Yes and
studies now are in process to determine the future marine terminal requirements for the Western part of the Province including Corner Brook.


STEPS TAKEN TO INITIATE STUDY INTO HARBOUR FACILITIES AT CORNER BROOK, NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Marshall: Has the Department of Transport taken steps to initiate a study into the long-term needs of Corner Brook's harbour facilities and (a) if so (i) by whom is this study being carried out (ii) on what date is the study expected to be completed (iii) what are its terms of reference (b) if not, for what reason?


Jean Marchand: No. The
Ministry of Transport is engaged in a Newfoundland Transportation study of harbours including Corner Brook. This study is expected to be completed in the fall of 1973.


REAL ESTATE DATA BANK, ALBERTA
Mr. Hollands: 1.	How many persons from (a) the Department of National Revenue (b) other departments are engaged in the land assessment program in Alberta?
2.	What portion (counties and municipalities) of the Province of Alberta has been assessed to date?
3.	Is the information gained in the assessment program being stored in a Land Data Bank?
4.	What is the Land Data Bank and for what purpose is it being established?
5.	Will the information gained by the land assessors be used by the Department of National Revenue for capital gains tax assessment?
6.	What formula is being used by the assessors to ensure that fair value is arrived at in assessing individual properties?
7.	Is the information being gained by the assessors going to be available to property owners or the general public upon request?
8.	Has an appeal procedure been established whereby property owners may contest the government's assessments?


Hon. Robert Stanbury (Minister of National Revenue):: It is presumed that this question relates to the Real Estate Data Bank project of the Department of National Revenue, Taxation, in which information is being assembled about properties which were sold in the years 1971 and 1972. 1. (a) The Department has 12 real estate appraisers in Alberta. It is estimated that they are presently

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
spending 75 per cent of their time on the Data Bank project and 25 per cent of their time on appraisal assignments for the department; (b) The Veterans Land Act administration of the Department of Veterans Affairs is assisting the department in the Data Bank project. They have employed 6 university students for the summer months who are working under the direction of their field officers. The Veterans Land administration have 18 field officers in Alberta and it is estimated that they are spending 20 per cent of their time on the Data Bank project.
2.	The Data Bank project does not involve assessments or appraisals of properties. It is a sales survey which is being carried out in all parts of Alberta and the rest of Canada. Approximately 75 per cent of the program has been completed and it is expected that the remainder will be completed by December 31, 1973.
3.	The information being gathered will be computer-stored in order that it may be readily accessible for future reference.
4.	The Real Estate Data Bank is a survey of sales which took place in the period around Valuation Day. It is being established to provide factual information about these sales and will be used as a future source of information for the public and the department to assist in determining the Valuation Day values of properties.
5.	The information will be used by the department to assist in assessing the reasonableness of Valuation Day values reported by taxpayers when disposing of their properties.
6.	As indicated above, individual properties are not being assessed in the Data Bank project. The department has no formula for use in determining values of individual properties.
7.	To the extent that it is not confidential, when the information is gathered and assembled it will be made available on request to the property owners and the general public.
8.	Where a taxpayer, upon disposing of a property, reports a Valuation Day value for that property with which, upon examination, the Department is unable to agree, the usual appeal procedure provided by the Income Tax Act will be available to the taxpayer once his income tax return has been assessed.


LOCAL EMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAM
Mr. Marshall: 1.	(a) On what date did planning for the Local Employment Assistance Program (LEAP) first commence (b) on what date were funds first allocated to the Program (c) when was the first project funded under LEAP and what was the nature of the project (d) what was the total amount of funds granted to it (e) where is it located (f) how many people are employed by the project (g) on what date was LEAP officially announced?
2.	(a) What is the total amount of funds committed to LEAP for the fiscal year 1973-74 and of this amount, what portion has been allocated to Newfoundland (b) what criteria were used to determine the allocation of funds?
3.	What is the total number of (a) jobs (b) projects expected to be created by LEAP in (i) the Maritimes (ii) Newfoundland by the end of the fiscal year 1973-74?
4.	(a) Is the primary emphasis of LEAP to fund commercial enterprises and, if so, what criteria are being used to determine
[Mr. Stanbury.J
whether or not a project is viable (b) what criteria are being used to determine whether or not an enterprise will duplicate already existing services in an area?


Robert Knight Andras: 1. (a) March 1970; (b) August 28, 1972; (c) January 26, 1973. The project was designed to provide employment opportunities to six disabled persons in sorting, cleaning and repairing for resale, used clothing and furniture; (d) $10,080; (e) St. John's, Newfoundland; (f) six; (g) No formal announcement has been made of the existence of this program although provincial ministers of welfare were informed of it in a joint letter from the Ministers of Manpower and Immigration and National Health and Welfare on January 11, 1973. This letter was tabled in the House on March 19, 1973 by the Minister of Manpower and Immigration.
2.	(a) $9,500,000 and $340,500; (b) allocations were made initially on the basis of unemployment rates within provinces.
3.	(a), (b) (i) and (ii) As proposals for the development of LEAP projects may originate from non-profit organizations, community or citizen groups, voluntary agencies or individuals, it is not possible to state definitively how many projects or jobs will be created. As of July 6, 1973, six projects have been approved for conduct in the Maritime provinces creating 59 jobs. Three of these projects were in Newfoundland and they will employ 22 persons.
4.	(a) No. The primary purpose of LEAP is to create worthwhile employment opportunities for people who would probably remain unemployed despite normal labour market activity; (b) Provincial officials serve on regional review boards to ensure that complementarity of program objectives is achieved and, additionally, intergovernmental and interdepartmental consultation takes place where the possibility of duplication of services exists.


DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES-PICKUP AND DELIVERY SERVICES
Mr. Hales: 1.	Was a contract OTT2-30084/1 for pickup and delivery services at Ottawa during the period May 1, 1973 to April 30, 1974 in the amount of $11,000 awarded to Greater Care Co., Ottawa, Ontario?
2.	Were tenders called and, if so (a) what are the names and addresses of those who tendered (b) was the lowest tender accepted?
3.	Were there any extra charges over and above the above figure and, if so, what were they?
4.	Where were the goods used and by what department of government?
5.	How were suppliers notified of government requirements?


Jean-Pierre Goyer: 1. Yes.
2. Yes (a) Paul's Transfer Reg'd., 207 St. Andrews Street, Ottawa; Canadian Skycap Services Limited, 457 Gladstone Avenue, Ottawa; J. C. Bedard Transfer, 295 St. Andrews Street, Ottawa; Metro-Ottawa Cartage & Delivery Service, 20 Brent Avenue, Ottawa; A. Artelle Transfer, 44 Adeline Street, Ottawa; Lyttle Cartage & Moving, P.O. Box 4388, Station "E", Ottawa; Tierny's Transfer & Delivery, 192 Rodney Cres., Ottawa, and Greater Care Company, 41 Bayswater Street, Ottawa; (b) yes.
September 5, 1973__________________
3.	No.
4.	Ottawa, Hull, Secretary of State.
5.	By Invitation to Tender.


CONTRACT FOR PREFABRICATED BUILDINGS AT BELLA COOLA AND MASSET, B.C.
Mr. Hales: 1.	Was a contract VAN3-69/1, VAN3-70/1 for supply and erection of prefabricated buildings at Bella Coola and Masset, British Columbia in the amount of $70,000 awarded to Artisans Industries Mfg. Ltd., Surrey, British Columbia?
2.	Were tenders called and, if so (a) what are the names and addresses of those who tendered (b) was the lowest tender accepted?
3.	Were there any extra charges over and above the above figure and, if so, what were they?
4.	Where were the goods used and by what department of government?
5.	How were suppliers notified of government requirements?


Jean-Pierre Goyer: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes; (a) Artisans Industries Mfg. Ltd., 9800-190 Street, Surrey, B.C.; Fabtec Structures, Div of Neonex Shelter Industries Limited, 60 Riverside Drive, North Vancouver, B.C.; Astra Trailer Manufacturing Company, 5569176 Street, Surrey, B.C.; Chimo Structures Limited, 400 Ewen Ave., New Westminster, B.C.; (b) yes.
3.	No.
4.	Bella Coola Indian Reserve-Masset Indian Reserve, Department of National Health and Welfare.
5.	By Invitation to Tender.


DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES-CONTRACT FOR SUNGLASSES
Mr. Hales: 1.	Was a contract GT.2511352-4 for sunglasses in the amount of $33,481 awarded to Imperial Optical Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario?
2.	Were tenders called and, if so (a) what are the names and addresses of those who tendered (b) was the lowest tender accepted?
3.	Were there any extra charges over and above the above figure and, if so, what were they?
4.	Where were the goods used and by what department of government?
5.	How were suppliers notified of government requirements?


Jean-Pierre Goyer: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes; (a) Aoco Limited, Belleville; Imperial Optical Company Ltd., Toronto; (b) Yes.
3.	No.
4.	Various Canadian Forces Supply depots, Department of National Defence. 5
5.	By Invitation to Tender.
Order Paper Questions JOB INFORMATION CENTRES


Mr. Marshall: What are the names of the 14 selected cities where Job Information Centres will be opening?


Robert Knight Andras: The initial 14 cities where Job Information Centres are to be opened were selected in May 1973 for the following locations: Kelowna, Surrey, Williams Lake, Red Deer, Saskatoon, Brandon, Windsor, St. Thomas, Cornwall, Ottawa, Rimouski, St. Hyacinthe, Saint John and St. John's. Since then a number of Job Information Centres have been opened at these locations and additional cities have been selected.


UIC-NOTIFICATION OF OVERPAYMENTS
Mr. Marshall: In its initial notification of an overpayment to a claimant does the Unemployment Insurance Commission (a) inform the claimant of the method of repayment which will be utilized (b) indicate the existence of the "agreed upon deduction" form (c) invite the claimant to contact the Unemployment Insurance Commission office in order that the method of repayment may be discussed?


Mark R. MacGuigan: (a) Overpayments are sometimes discovered while claimants are receiving benefit and on other occasions when the claim has become inactive. In the first instance a notice is sent to the active claimant advising him of the overpayment. Repayment is then effected by withholding the necessary amount from the benefit that would otherwise be payable for as long as required to complete the repayment. In these instances, if the claimant wishes and so advises the Commission, he may make arrangements to have a portion only of the benefit due on each cheque retained for repayment purposes, thereby allowing him to receive some benefit during the repayment period. In the second case (inactive claim) a series of three letters are used to inform the claimant that he should work out mutually agreeable arrangements with the Commission for the repayment of the money. The second and third letters are used in the event that the claimant does not reply to the previous one. (b) The letters that both active and non-active claimants receive with respect to an overpayment both indicate that he should contact the Commission to work out suitable repayment arrangements. In the case of active claimants the computer system is being modified slightly in midAugust to remove the possibility that now occasionally occurs whereby full deductions from the benefit of an active claimant may occur before he has contacted the office in order to make arrangements for partial amounts from the benefit otherwise due him. (c) When a claimant whose claim is inactive is notified by letter that he has been overpaid, it is pointed out that he should contact the nearest office of the Commission to work out an acceptable method of repayment and this is done on the basis that it will not cause him undue financial hardship.



September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions HONG KONG VETERANS


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	According to records of the Department of Vererans Affairs, how many Canadian Army veterans who served at Hong Kong were living at the end of World War II?
2.	How many such veterans died between the end of World War II and this date?
3.	Is the percentage death rate for Hong Kong veterans higher since World War II than the percentage death rate for those who served in the Canadian Army elsewhere and what are these percentages, based on the latest figures available?


Hon. Daniel J. MacDonald (Minister o£ Veterans Affairs):: 1. One thousand four hundred five.
2.	Approximately 254.
3.	The number of persons who served in the Canadian Army elsewhere than in Hong Kong and who have died since World War II is not known.


DISABILITY PENSIONS TO HONG KONG VETERANS
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	Will the government take immediate steps to increase to 100 per cent the disability pensions being paid to veterans of the Canadian Army who served at Hong Kong and who became prisoners of war and (a) if so, on what date will these steps be taken (b) if not, for what reason will these steps not be taken?
2.	Has the government given any recent consideration to increasing pensions for such veterans who have been forced to retire from their occupations prior to normal retirement date as a result of health conditions created by war-time imprisonment?


Daniel Joseph MacDonald: 1. It is not planned to increase to 100 per cent the disability pensions paid to veterans of the Canadian Army who served in Hong Kong and who became prisoners of war of the Japanese. It is just over two years since the Pension Act was amended to provide that former prisoners of war of the Japanese would be paid a minimum pension equal to that for a disability assessed at 50 per cent if there was any assessable disability whatever. This measure not only quarantees a minimum 50 per cent pension to the veteran during his lifetime but ensures an award to his widow and dependent children at his death. In the event that the disability is greater than 50 per cent, pension is paid at the higher rate. This legislative change was in keeping with the request made by the Veterans' Organizations at that time.
2. There are no plans to increase pension for veterans who have been forced to retire from their occupations prior to normal retirement date as a result of health conditions created by wartime imprisonment. Disability pensions under the Pension Act are paid as a right based on the degree of disability present from time to time. The individual's financial condition, station in life, or employment situation have no bearing on the decision. The worsening of a condition may result in increased assessment and higher pension.


IMMIGRATION OFFICE, SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
Mr. Reynolds: 1.	How many full-time employees are there at the Immigration Office in Seattle, Washington?
[Mr. MacGuigan.J
2.	Is it the intention of the government to increase the staff in this office to handle the backlog of work and, if so, on what date?


Mark R. MacGuigan: 1. At the present time the Manpower and Immigration Office in Seattle, Washington has one full-time Foreign Service Officer. He is supported by one full-time secretary-typist provided by the Department of External Affairs. Additional part-time administrative and clerical assistance is also provided by External Affairs.
2. A second full-time Foreign Service Officer will commence work on August 13, 1973. In addition, one locally engaged operational employee and one locally engaged clerical employee are currently being recruited.


FAMILY ALLOWANCES
Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): 1.	What percentage of the gross national product was spent on family allowances, as at July 31, 1945?
2.	What percentage of the gross national product was spent on family allowances, as at July 31, 1972?
3.	What percentage of government revenues was earmarked for the payment of family allowances, as at July 31, 1945?
4.	What percentage of government revenues was earmarked for the payment of family allowances, as at July 31, 1972?


Marc Lalonde: With the concurrence of the member the following changes have been made: Parts 1 and 3, "as at July 31, 1945" should read "for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1947". Parts 2 and 4, "as at July 31, 1972" should read "for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1973". 1.	1.92 per cent.
2.	0.49 per cent.
3.	For the fiscal year ending March 31, 1947 expenditures on family allowances were 8.99 per cent of federal government revenues.
4.	For the fiscal year ending March 31, 1973, expenditures on family allowances were 2.48 per cent of federal government revenues.



Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): 1.	On July 31, 1972, how many children were eligible for family allowances?
2.	On July 31, 1972, what was the total amount paid in family allowances across Canada?
3.	On July 31, 1972, by province, how many children were eligible for family allowances?
4.	On July 31, 1972, by province, what was the total amount paid in family allowances by the government?


Marc Lalonde: 1. 6,777,216.
2. $45,923,164.
3 and 4:
September 5, 1973

Province No.	of Children	Amount PaidNewfoundland	208,942	$ 1,414,331.Prince Edward Island	37,224	255,752.Nova Scotia	252,527	1,726,368.New Brunswick	213,513	1,462,518.Quebec	1,856,151	12,798,335.Ontario	2,394,870	15,949,374.Manitoba	306,768	2,044,966.Saskatchewan	289,689	1,980,950.Alberta	543,394	3,684,459.British Columbia	651,265	4,444,765.Northwest Territories	16,533	114,302.Yukon	6,340	47,044.Total	6,777,216	$45,923,164.



Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): 1.	On July 31, 1945, how many children were eligible for family allowances?
2.	On July 31, 1945, what was the total amount paid in family allowances across Canada?
3.	On July 31, 1945, by province, how many children were eligible for family allowances?
4.	On July 31, 1945, by province, what was the total amount paid by the government for family allowances?


Marc Lalonde: 

3 and 4:
No. of	Amount
Province	Children	PaidNewfoundland	-	-Prince Edward Island	29,207	$ 177,058Nova Scotia	155,121	921,333New Brunswick	143,152	849,136Quebec	1,029,246	5,948,309Ontario	798,725	4,836,416Manitoba	169,686	1,029,982Saskatchewan	232,966	1,397,838Alberta	213,162	1,289,084British Columbia	185,579	1,111,778N.W.T. and Yukon	3,000**	19,000*Total	2,959,844	$17,579,934
"[DOT]Estimate based on retroactive payments made in later months.
Order Paper Questions


ESCAPE OF J. E. McCANN FROM BRITISH COLUMBIA PENITENTIARY
Mr. Reynolds: 1.	Did the Director of Security and all Squad Leaders who were on duty May 17, 1973 hold a meeting with the Director of the British Columbia penitentiary and, if so (a) was the Director advised that inmate No. 3384 J. E. McCann was organizing an escape from the institution (b) did this group recommend that the inmate be placed in SCU?
2.	Was any action taken on this recommendation and, if not, for what reason?
3.	Was Security Officer Smith subjected to disciplinary action because of the inmate's escape and, if so, for what reason?


Hon. Warren Allmand (Solicitor General):: 1. Yes; (a) no; (b) no.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Yes. Officer Smith was found negligent in the performance of his duty. He signalled the yard clear when in fact inmate McCann was still in the yard. This signal had the effect of reducing perimeter security, thus facilitating the inmate's escape.


CBC ADVERTISING EXPENDITURES, 1971 AND 1972
Mr. McKenzie: 1.	How much money was spent by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on advertising during the years 1971 and 1972?
2.	Of this amount, how much was spent advertising (a) English-language radio programs (b) English-language television programs (c) French-language radio programs (d) French-language television programs?
3.	(a) Through what media did CBC advertise its programs during the years 1971 and 1972 (b) what percentage of the advertising budget was spent on each of these?


James Hugh Faulkner: I am
informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. The CBC uses its own broadcasting facilities to a great extent to promote its programs, and much of the Corporation's advertising in publications requires no cash expenditure since ads are frequently placed on a contra-account basis whereby comparable value in broadcast time is exchanged for space in the publication. Thus, expenditures on advertising have been kept to a minimum as follows; $203,966 for the fiscal year 1971-72, and $309,842 for 1972-73.
2.	(a) $56,869 in 1971-72; $74,427 in 1972-73; (b) $74,256 in
1971-	72; $158,191 in 1972-73; (c) $14,995 in 1971-72; $3,165 in
1972-	73; (d) $57,846 in 1971-72; $74,059 in 1972-73.
3.	(a) and (b) The CBC advertised its programs in newspapers and magazines. The approximate percentage breakdown of the total expenditures given in part 1 above was about the same for both years, roughly 90 per cent spent on newspaper advertising and the balance on magazine advertising.


CONFEDERATION BUILDING-RENOVATIONS TO CAFETERIA AND LOUNGE
Mr. Leggatt: 1.	What is the total cost of renovations in the cafeteria and lounge on the eighth floor of the Confederation Building?

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
2.	In the lounge, what is the individual cost of each (a) chandelier (b) chesterfield (c) table lamp (d) chair (e) table and what is the cost per square foot of rug used in the cafeteria and lounge?


Hon. Jean-Eudes Dube (Minister of Public Works):: 1. The total cost of renovations in the cafeteria and lounge on the eighth floor of this building as of July 17, 1973 is forecast as $663,308.00. Included in this amount is the sum of $166,190.00 for the kitchen equipment.
2. The various items in the Members' Lounge were billed as follows and invoices were forwarded to Department of Supply and Services for payment action.
(a)	Chandeliers	3	at	$2,386.80	each(b)	Sofas	(leather)	6	at	$1,175.00	eachSofas	(fabric)	7	at	$	521.92	each(c)	Lamps	(large)	4	at	$	73.95	eachLamps (small)	8	at	$	34.00	eachLamps (small)	2	at	$	37.20	each(d)	Chairs	4	at	$	242.48	eachSeats	2	at	$	401.52	each(e)	Tables	(lounge)	26	at	$	61.60	eachTables	(coffee)	3	at	$	168.00	eachTables	(end)	14	at	$	168.00	each
Carpet costs, installed complete with underpad, amounted to $2.00 per square foot for a total of $27,763.50.


LIP-PROJECT 311-0095 &quot;THEATRE IN CANADA&quot;
Mr. Hellyer: 1.	Did the government audit the accounts of LIP Project 3110095 "Theatre in Canada"?
2.	Were the young people employed in this project given vacation pay in accordance with the laws of the Province of Ontario and, if not, for what reason?


Robert Knight Andras: 1. Yes.
2. This information is not available from the records of the Local Initiatives Program, as this is a responsibility of the sponsor of the project as the employer.


LIP-PROJECT No. 211-1970
Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): 1.	Did LIP project no. 211-1970, known as "Innovation Quebec" which received nearly half a million dollars in grants to assist the inventors, serve to (a) prepare invention plans for inventors (b) prepare technical descriptions (c) present requests to the Patents Office on behalf of and in the name of inventors?
2.	What was the total amount of plans, technical descriptions and patent requests made during the project?
3.	What are the names and addresses of inventors who used the services provided by "Innovation Quebec"?


Robert Knight Andras: 1. (a) and (b) The objective stated in the agreement signed by the sponsor of project "Innovation

Quebec" is to assist inventors by producing parts and components, models and prototypes of inventions. This service was to include the production of standard workshop drawings and the preparation of lists of materials required for the production of components, (c) The presentation of requests to the Patent Office was not included in the objectives of this program.
2 and 3. Information of this nature would be contained in the personal records of the project sponsor who as the employer is solely responsible for carrying out the objectives of the project. Such information is not tabulated in LIP records.


INTEREST OF ELDORADO NUCLEAR LIMITED IN PORT RADIUM MINING PROPERTIES
Mr. Nesdoly: 1.	Was consideration given to permit Eldorado Nuclear Limited to mine the rich silver ores on its property at Port Radium, using its own facilities, in order to alleviate current financial difficulties and, if not (a) for what reason (b) who mined the surrounding deposits?
2.	(a) What price did Echo Bay Mines pay for the old Port Radium facilities (b) who set the price (c) did Eldorado Nuclear Limited spend any money on fixing up the power plant or facilities prior to sale?
3.	Has any ore been mined or taken from the old Eldorado Port Radium property by Echo Bay Mines or subsequent owners?
4.	Were other mining companies allowed the chance to bid on purchase of the Port Radium facilities?
5.	Did any key officers of Eldorado Nuclear Limited have connections with the Echo Bay Mines group prior to their resignations and move to that company?
6.	(a) Have any of Eldorado Nuclear Limited's officers any interests in Echo Bay Mines operations at the old Port Radium property (b) have the officers profited from Echo Bay's operations there?
7.	(a) Did Mr. Harold Lake, the Vice-President of Eldorado Mining and Refining Ltd., leave the employ of Eldorado Nuclear Limited to become an executive of Echo Bay Mines and, if so, on what date (b) did Mr. F. Burton leave the employ of Eldorado Nuclear Limited to become the mine superintendent of Echo Bay Mines and, if so, on what date?


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: 1. No. (a) The mining claims held by Eldorado Nuclear Limited at Port Radium do not contain any known minerals in commercial quantities, the operation having been closed in 1960 upon exhaustion of ore reserves after 30 years of mining, (b) Cominco and Echo Bay Mines Limited.
2.	(a) $150,000 for surface plants, (b) Eldorado's directors. (c) No.
3.	No.
4.	No; obviously of interest only to a company operating in the immediate area.
5.	No.
6.	(a) No. (b) No.
7.	(a) No; Mr. Lake left Eldorado's employ June 30, 1968. (b) No; Mr. Burton left Eldorado's employ November 30, 1964. It is understood that they did not leave the employ of Eldorado, directly, to take up offices with Echo Bay Mines but did so after some months had elapsed.
September 5, 1973


'SURVEY OF DEMANDS FOR UNIVERSITY GRADUATES
Mr. Fairweather: 1.	Will the Minister of Manpower and Immigration publish the results of the recently published annual survey of demands for university graduates?
2.	Does the survey indicate that the demand for post graduate students is down substantially from 1972?
3.	What is the percentage of decline in demands for post graduate students in each of the years 1970, 1971 and 1972?


John Mercer Reid: The answer to part 1 is yes.
The answer to part 2 is yes, employers' anticipated requirements for post graduate students declined substantially between 1972 and 1973. It should be noted, however, that under estimation of requirements is a frequent occurrence.
The answer to part 3 is that the percentage changes in anticipated requirements for post graduate students on the part of reporting employers were as follows: 1969-70, minus 19.2 per cent; 1970-71, plus 31.4 per cent; 1971-72, minus 13.9 per cent.


EXPERIMENTAL FARM, FORT VERMILION, ALBERTA-TOTAL BUDGET
Mr. Oberle: 1.	What was the total budget for the Agriculture Experimental Farms in Fort Vermilion, Alberta, for the years (a) 1967 (b) 1968 (c) 1969 (d) 1970 (e) 1971 (f) 1972?
2.	What is the budget for 1973?
3.	What services or research projects have been added or deleted from the Station in the past five years?


Hon. E. F. Whelan (Minister of Agriculture):: 1. Total budget for Experimental Farm, Fort Vermilion, Alberta, for the following years;
Fiscal Year	Amount
1967-68	$100,858
1968-69	122,940
1969-70	116,068
1970-71	112,322
1971-72	131,901
1972-73	137,770
2.	The budget for 1973-74 is $125,500.
3.	The Research Station at Beaverlodge, Alberta, and the Experimental Farms at Prince George, B.C., and Fort Vermilion, Alberta, together form the Northern Research Group administered by one Director. The research program of the three establishments is integrated and is concentrated upon the needs of northern agriculture in Alberta and B.C. Change within the past five years is indicated by the appointment of a new Director and by a continuous refinement of the research program. Research effort as represented by the size of the professional staff has neither increased nor diminished.
Order Paper Questions


EXPERIMENTAL FARM, PRINCE GEORGE, B.C.-TOTAL BUDGET
Mr. Oberle: 1.	What was the total budget for the Agriculture Experimental Farms in Prince George, British Columbia, for the years (a) 1967 (b) 1968 (c) 1969 (d) 1970 (e) 1971 (f) 1972?
2.	What is the budget for 1973?
3.	What services or research projects have been added or deleted from the Station in the past five years?


Eugene Whelan: 1. Total budget for Experimental Farm, Prince George, B.C., for the following years:
Fiscal Year	Amount
1967-68	$244,359
1968-69	290,860
1969-70	258,684
1970-71	204,790
1971-72	222,188
1972-73	258,429
2.	The budget for 1973-74 is $230,000.
3.	The Research Station at Beaverlodge, Alberta, and the Experimental Farms at Prince George, B.C., and Fort Vermilion, Alberta, together form the Northern Research group administered by one Director. The research programs of the three establishments is integrated and is concentrated upon the needs of northern agriculture in Alberta and B.C. Change within the past five years is indicated by the appointment of a new Director in 1970 and by a continuous refinement of the research program. Research effort as represented by the size of the professional staff has neither increased nor diminished.


EXPERIMENTAL FARM, BEAVERLODGE, ALBERTA-TOTAL BUDGET
Mr. Oberle: 1.	What was the total budget for the Agriculture Experimental Farms in Beaverlodge, Alberta, for the years (a) 1967 (b) 1968 (c) 1969 (d) 1970 (e) 1971 (f) 1972?
2.	What is the budget for 1973?
3.	What services or research projects have been added or deleted from the Station in the past five years?


Eugene Whelan: 1. Total budget for Research Station, Beaverlodge, Alberta, for the following years:
Fiscal Year	Amount
1967-68	$643,779
1968-69	674,849
1969-70	663,612
1970-71	884,718
1971-72	879,498
1972-73	851,900

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions
2.	The budget for 1973-74 is $835,100.
3.	The Research Station at Beaverlodge, Alberta, and the Experimental Farms at Prince George, British Columbia, and Fort Vermilion, Alberta, together form the Northern Research Group administered by one Director. The research program of the three establishments is integrated and is concentrated upon the needs of northern agriculture in Alberta and British Columbia. Change within the past five years is indicated by the appointment of a new Director in 1970 and by a continuous refinement of the research program. Research effort as represented by the size of the professional staff has neither increased nor diminished.


YOUTH HOSTELS IN NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): 1.	Is it the policy of the government that the Canadian Youth Hostel Association could be able to (a) own (b) manage (c) operate youth hostels in Banff and Jasper National Parks and, if not, what are the reasons for prohibition of (i) ownership (ii) management (iii) operation by the Canadian Youth Hostel Association of hostels in national parks?
2.	Has policy in this matter changed in the past ten years and, if so (a) on what date (b) for what reason?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. (a) No; (b) yes; (c) yes; (i) allowing a private organization exclusive rights to occupy and control land within a National Park for its members only is not consistent with National Parks principles or sound administration of publicly owned property; (ii) N/A; (iii) N/A.
2. Yes; (a) 1964; (b) with increasing use and pressures on the national parks it became apparent that land within national parks could not and should not be made available for the exclusive use of every interested organization.


GOLD TRANSACTIONS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	Was an Order in Council issued directing the Bank of Canada to request every bank in Canada to report names and addresses for every gold transaction over 10 ounces to the Bank of Canada and, if so (a) on what date (b) on what dates are such reports required (c) what is the purpose of such reports?
2.	As Canada is not on the gold standard, for what reason is such documentation necessary?
3.	Is the procuring of such information considered an invasion of privacy and, if not, for what reason?


John Napier Turner: 1. No. I am
advised, however, that the Bank of Canada, under the authority of Section 117 of the Bank Act, has requested of the chartered banks that they provide quarterly totals of their purchases and sales of gold in Canada broken down by country or geographical area of residence of their customers. This information is collected to assist Statistics Canada in the production of data relating to the Canadian balance of international payments. It may be that, to enable them to meet the geographical classification requested, banks are asking customers dealing in gold to
(Mr. Whelan.]
record mailing addresses but information on names and addresses of individuals is not passed on to the Bank of Canada. Indeed the Bank Act specifically provides that banks are not required to furnish to the Bank of Canada information with respect to the accounts or affairs of any individual person. The Bank of Canada is taking steps to reduce the misunderstanding that appears to have arisen concerning its request for statistical information.
2 and 3. See answer to question 1.


KILLING OF MUSKOX IN NORTHWEST TERRITORIES
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): Did any government representatives or officials kill, or order killed, muskox in the Northwest Territories in October, November or December of 1972 or any month in 1973 and, if so (a) how many muskox were killed (b) by whom were they killed (c) for what reasons were they killed (d) how were hides and/or heads disposed of (e) what were the names and positions of any public officials or representatives who received heads and/or hides (f) what was the reason for each such gift of a head or hide?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: (a)	18 (Oct/Dec.) 1972; nil;
March 1973, 18; (b) Animals were taken by biologists of the Territorial Game Management Service and by the Inuit hunters hired for the project; (c) animals were taken for Rumen Analysis and other biological, physiological and pathological determinations; (d) hides are being used by the Department of Industry and Development of the Territorial government to investigate what market potential might exist for them. Three muskox skulls have been donated to the Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Arts and Sciences. All other skulls with horns are presently being measured for comparative purposes, e.g. Northern Museums and other places to which the public has access; (e) no heads or hides have been given to public officials or representatives; (b) N/A.


LACK OF NATIVE REPRESENTATION ON COMMITTEE ON THE FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC IMPACT OF CANADIAN NORTHERN PIPELINES DEVELOPMENT
Miss MacDonald (Kingston and the Islands): 1.	(a) For what reason is there no native person on the Committee on the Financial and Economic Impact of Canadian Northern Pipelines Development (b) has the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources considered the suggestion by the Canadian Association in Support of Native People, that an equal Advisory Committee of Native People be established to provide the government with this most important point of view?
2.	For what reason has the Minister created such an Advisory Committee to deal with a project which will have a substantial impact on the native people, without including one native person on the Committee?


John Mercer Reid: 1. (a) There is no such committee as the Committee on the Financial and Economic Impact of Canadian Northern Pipelines Development. However, the National Advisory Committee on Northern Pipeline Financing was established on March 31, 1973 to advise the government on northern pipeline financing and on ways of ensuring maximum participation by Canadians, having regard to the availability of funds within
September 5, 1973

Canada. It is a committee of financial specialists only, concerned primarily with the technical aspects of the money market. There is also an Economic Impact Committee which is part of the government's Task Force on Northern Oil Development. This is an interdepartmental group which examines views on economic impact matters from all sectors of Canadian society. A further committee of the Task Force on Northern Oil Development, called the Environmental-Social Committee, receives and carefully examines views from associations of native people. It is charged with the responsibility of ensuring that the concerns of the native people of the North are made known and carefully considered, (b) Yes.
2. Views of the native people on pipeline matters are obtained through the Task Force on Northern Oil Development committees noted in 1, and through associations of native people which are assisted in their research by grants from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs.
APPOINTMENT OF Mr. H. J. MITCHELL


Mr. Cossitt: 1.	On what date was Mr. H. J. Mitchell, Chief, Policy, Planning and Programming, National Historic Parks and Sites Branch, Parks Canada, appointed?
2.	Was this appointment made from the Public Service Commission or was it made by the Minister and what were the various considerations leading to this appointment?
3.	What previous positions did Mr. Mitchell hold with the government and for what period of time?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. July 15, 1969 in an acting capacity and confirmed in this position July 15, 1970.
2.	Mr. H. J. Mitchell was appointed as a result of a competition conducted by a Departmental Selection Board and approved by the Public Service Commission. The criteria for appointment was demonstrated knowledge of good management concepts, practises and techniques and the ability to plan, organize and direct a program encompassing complex situations and impact on the general public.
3.	1937 to 1939 Civil Service Commission Office Boy;
1939 to 1945 Canadian Army, Gunner to Sergeant; 1945 to 1946 Department of	Mines	and	Resources,	Clerk	3;	1946	to1948	Department of	Mines	and	Resources,	Clerk	4;	1948	to1949	Department of	Mines	and	Resources,	Clerk	4;	1949	to1952 Department of	Resources and Development,	Principal
Clerk to D.A. 2-Accountant and Office Manager in the Yellowknife Mining Recorder's Office; 1952 to 1954 Department of Resources and Development, Administrative Officer Grade 1-Area Administrator and Chairman of the Municipal District of Hay River; 1954 to 1957 Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, Administrative Officer Grade 2-Area Administrator and Mining Recorder in Yellowknife; 1957 to 1959 Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, Administrative Officer-Grade 4-Regional Administrator, Aklavik; 1959 to 1961 Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, Administrative Officer Grade 4-Liquor and Legislation Section Head Territorial Division-Ottawa; 1961 to 1966, Department of Northern Affairs and National
Order Paper Questions
Resources, Administrative Officer 5, 6 & 7-Assistant Chief, Industrial Division, Ottawa; 1966 to 1969 Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, P.M. 6-Assistant Administrator of the Arctic-Ottawa; 1969, to Present Chief, Operations Division National Historic Sites Service.


INDIAN AFFAIRS-ELECTION OF BAND LEADER
Mr. Godin: Is the government planning to amend Section 77 of the Indian Act to lower the voting age from 21 to 18 for the election of a band leader as in the case of federal general elections or by-elections?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The government has previously indicated that no substantive amendments to the Indian Act would be made without prior consultation with the Indian people. It is understood that the Alberta Indian Association in conjunction with the National Indian Brotherhood and in consultation with other associations and the Indian people are preparing a number of amendments to the Indian Act for consideration. In addition a private member's bill respecting voting age was introduced some months ago and referred to the Standing Committee of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. The committee, upon recommendation of the National Indian Brotherhood and the Native Youth Association of Canada, decided that Bill C-16 would not be proceeded with pending the results and recommendations that will be brought forth from the study by the provincial and territorial member organizations of the National Indian Brotherhood as to the over-all recommendations to the revision of the Indian Act.


PUBLIC WORKS-CRANE REPAIRS, GRAVING DOCK, ESQUIMALT, B.C.
Mr. McKinnon: Has the 100-ton crane at the Graving Dock at Esquimalt, British Columbia, been unserviceable for some two years now and, if so, on what date does the government intend to have this equipment repaired?


Jean-Eudes Dubé: The 100-ton stiff leg derrick at the Esquimalt graving dock is a little over 50 years of age. The consultant firm of A. B. Sanderson & Company Limited was retained in 1970-71 to report on the condition of the structural, mechanical and electrical components of this derrick. It was the opinion of the consulting firm that it would not be economical or desirable to attempt to repair this facility and it was subsequently recommended that the derrick be retired from service. The replacement of this facility is under study at the present time in conjunction with a study of proposed dry docks in British Columbia. Discussions are being held with the Ministry of Transport, the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce and other agencies of government as well as private interests. At the present time it is very difficult to say whether this will be replaced as consideration is being given to floating cranes and/or other alternatives.

September 5, 1973
Order Paper Questions


FIRMS ENGAGED IN RETAIL AND SERVICE TRADE IN NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Clark (Rocky Mountain): In each year 1964 to 1972 inclusive, how many firms were engaged primarily in (a) retail trade (b) a service trade in (i) Banff (ii) Jasper (iii) Waterton townsites?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Banff	Jasper	Waterton LakesYear	Retail	Service	Retail	Service	Retail	Service1964	229	102	39	60	17	331965	302	102	40	61	17	3319G6	308	103	39	67	17	331967	316	103	40	69	17	341968	317	104	42	73	17	351969	323	105	49	77	17	351970	325	106	49	78	17	371971	333	107	53	80	18	421972	335	112	52	73	18	43


CANDIDATES' ELECTION EXPENSES
Mr. Olaussen: 1.	Which candidates in the 1972 general election had (a) the highest campaign expenses (b) the lowest campaign expenses?
2.	What was the amount in each case?


John Mercer Reid: 1. (a) Stephen B. Roman; (b) Pierre Demers and Joseph Goguen.
2. (a) $92,103; (b) 0.00.
Note: The answer to (a) is from the answer to question 1,730 appearing on page 4005 of House of Commons Debates No. 87 of Wednesday, May 23, 1973. The answer to (b) has been obtained from Sessional Paper No. 291-3/1 referred to in Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons No. 49 of March 13, 1973.


COAST CHILCOTIN CANDIDATES ELECTION EXPENSES
Mr. Olaussen: What were the total campaign expenses of each candidate in the Coast-Chilcotin general election 1972?


John Mercer Reid: Lew King, $782.86; Harry Olaussen, $5,259.72; Paul St. Pierre, $14,207.20; John Pank-ratz, Not reported.
Note: The answer to this question has been obtained from Sessional Paper No. 291-3/1 referred to in Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons No. 49 of March 13, 1973.


DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS-TERM ON CASUAL EMPLOYEES
Mr. Fairweather: 1.	(fi) How many term or casual employees are employed in the Department of Public Works (b) how many of the above have been employed longer than (i) six months (ii) one year (iii) two years?
2.	How many persons are presently engaged under a "Personal Service Contract" with the Department?
3.	In the past three years, how many persons have been hired by the Department of Public Works, from among those previously engaged under a "Personal Service Contract", into a permanent position and at what classification and level was each of them employed?
4.	(a) Under what authority were they originally hired (b) under what process of selection were they subsequently employed on a permanent basis?


Jean-Eudes Dubé: 1.
(a) 1572; (b) (i) 249; (ii) 212; (iii) 93.
2.	Seventeen.
3.	Sixteen as follows: 2 AR 4; 1 EN-ENG 5; 2 EN-ENG 3;
1	EN-ENG 1; 1 OM 5; 1 CS 2; 1 AS 3; 1 AS 1; 1 DD 4; 1 DD 3;
2	CR 4; 2 CR 3.
Note: There are an additional 18 persons in the Engineering Support category hired with the concurrence of the Public Service Commission, as term employees for a specific term of one year or less.
4.	(a) Government Contract Regulations and the Public Service Employment Act. (b) Selected through open competition, Public Service Commission and in-service inventory, P.S.C.


UIC-SET UP OF SYSTEM FOR EMERGENCY PAYMENTS
Mr. Marshall: 1.	Is it the intention of UIC offices to set up a system of emergency payments so that payments can be made in four, eight and 24 hours and, if so, what are the details?
2.	Is it the intention of UIC to change the method of repayment of overpayment and, if so, what are the details?
3.	On what date is it expected that these changes will take place?


Robert Knight Andras: 1. UIC now has two types of monitored payment: Type 1, This type of payment is requested through the Regional Pay Centre with priority to be included in the next computer run. This provides a 48 hour turnaround. The payment is normally mailed to the claimant. Type 2, This type of payment is requested through the Regional Pay Centre and processed in the unit record system. Turnaround time is 24 hours, or less if the claimant is in the same locality as the Pay Centre. The payment may be mailed, delivered to the District Office or to the claimant's residence. A new type of payment will be incorporated into the system as Type 3. Type 3, This new type will provide fast payment to any claimant whose claim has been delayed and who faces possible hardship. This payment is requested through the District Office. Payment is available within four hours at the District Office.
2. On June 5, 1973, a policy was approved whereby all active claimants would be given the opportunity to estab-
September 5, 1973

lish an agreed amount of their normal benefit payment which will be applied against any non-fraud overpayment. This agreed deduction has always been part of UIC procedure for non-active claims but was not applied to active claims. This new policy ensures that prior to any recoupment of overpayments from benefit, the claimant will be contacted and will be given the opportunity to agree to a deduction which must be in the range of 25% to 75% of his weekly unemployment insurance rate. At present, this policy is being carried out by contacting the claimant prior to setting up any overpayment on the computer system.
3. Implementation of Type 3 monitored payments is now taking place. The tentative implementation schedule is: Quebec Region, August 14, 1973; Ontario Region, September 10, 1973; Prairie, September 17, 1973; Pacific, September 24, 1973; Atlantic, October 1, 1973. These dates are dependent on scheduled delivery of equipment. On August 15, 1973, the computer system will automatically delay recoupment by three weeks on non-fraud overpayments in order to allow time to contact the claimant and agree on a deduction.


BREEDS OF HORSES REGISTERED IN CANADA
Mr. Rowland: In the case of each of the following breeds of horses, what are the numbers registered in Canada (a) Arab (b) Thoroughbred (c) Appaloosa (d) Quarter Horse (e) Morgan (f) Clydesdale (g) Percheron (h) Hackney (i) Belgium (j) Shetland (k) Welsh?


Mr. Leopold Corriveau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture):: (a) Arabian, 3,743; (b) Thoroughbred, 20,592; (c) Appaloosa, 7,461; (d) Quarter Horse,
Applicant's Name
*Atlantic Dry Kiln Ltd. Bellavance Inc.
Ferme Lac Aylmer Ltee Les Agences P. P. R. L. Inc. Meubles Carrier Furniture Inc. Omer Roy et Fils Inc.
*Pan-0-Flex Inc.
Paul Morency Inc.
Pretty Polly (Canada) Ltd. Produits de Beton Rimouski Inc. Produits Esto Ltee *Produits Rodech Inc.
Produits Rodech Inc. Vulcanisation Marquis Ltee
Order Paper Questions
2,417; (e) Morgan, 677; (f) Clydesdale, 96,518; (g) Percheron, 45,762; (h) Hackney, 6,290; (i) Belgian, 14,192; (j) Shet land, 7,227; (k) Welsh, 3,410.


DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS FOREMEN
Mr. Allard: How many (a) unilingual (b) bilingual foremen are employed by the Department of Public Works in the Ottawa-Hull area?


Jean-Eudes Dubé: The Department of Public Works has (a) 72 unilingual and (b) 90 bilingual foremen in the Ottawa-Hull area. These totals include 56 unilingual and 46 bilingual supervisors on the heating staff whose duties are similar but are not normally referred to as foremen.


DREE-GRANTS TO BUSINESSES IN RIMOUSKI CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Allard: 1.	Which businesses in the constituency of Rimouski received grants from the Department of Regional Economic Expansion?
2.	What was the total amount granted to such businesses?
3.	How many businesses in the constituency of Rimouski went bankrupt after receiving such grants?
4.	To date, has the Pretty Polly Company in Mont-Joli received grants from the Department?


Mr. Marcel Prud'homme (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Regional Economic Expansion):: 1. The net
accepted offers authorized under the Regional Development Incentives Act, from the coming into force of the Act to July 31, 1973, in the Constituency of Rimouski are:
Location of Facility	Total Ofl $
Rimouski	90,800
Rimouski	91,930
St. Gabriel	10,275
Rimouski	30,896
Mont-Joli	16,470
St. Donat	71,500
Rimouski	17,606
Rimouski	60,450
Mont-Joli	608,000
Pointe-au-Pere	6,976
Mont-Joli	355,560
Luceville	18,000
Luceville	64,000
Rimouski	19,854
(It is to be noted that only those marked with an asterisk actually received payments as of July 31, 1973). 2
2. The total value of the net accepted offers listed above	3. One-Pan-O-Flex Inc.
is $1,462,317; total payments are $190,302.

September 5, 1973
Orders for Returns
4.	Pretty Polly (Canada) Ltd. has accepted an offer of a development incentive in the amount of $608,000. However, no payment had been made as of July 31, 1973.


CAPE BRETON DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION-NUMBER OF BUSINESSES IN RECEIPT OF INVESTMENT
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breton-East Richmond): 1.	How many business enterprises has the Cape Breton Development Corporation invested in since it began operations?
2.	(a) How many such businesses are still in operation (b) what is the nature of these operations (c) who are the responsible persons managing them?
3.	(a) How many are no longer operating (b) what was the nature of such operations (c) for what reason did they cease operations?
4.	Did the Corporation recover its investments?
5.	In each instance (a) what was the investment (b) how much of the investment was in the form of (i) grants (ii) loans and, of the amount in loans, how much has been recovered to date?


Marcel Prud'homme: The answer for the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is as follows: 101 business enterprises.


QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Mr. Nystrom: 1.	What was the total amount of money spent in each of the fiscal years 1968-69, 1969-70, 1970-71, 1971-72 by the Department of Urban Affairs on contracts to outside persons and organizations for research, development and other consulting services?
2.	What are the names and addresses of these outside persons and organizations and what amounts of money were involved in each contract?
3.	What was the purpose of each contract and title of each report submitted?
4.	What are the names and addresses of outside persons and organizations who were awarded contracts for research, development and other consulting services in the current fiscal year, what are the amounts of money involved in each case and what is the purpose of each contract?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS-RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT EXPENDITURES
Mr. Nystrom: 1.	What was the total amount of money spent in each of the fiscal years 1968-69, 1969-70, 1970-71, 1971-72 by the Department of External Affairs on contracts to outside persons and organizations for research, development and other consulting services?
2.	What are the names and addresses of these outside persons and organizations and what amounts of money were involved in each contract?
3.	What was the purpose of each contract and title of each report submitted?
4.	What are the names and addresses of outside persons and organizations who were awarded contracts for research, develop-

ment and other consulting services in the current fiscal year, what are the amounts of money involved in each case and what is the purpose of each contract?
Return tabled.


ANNUAL TAX REVENUE ON ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
Mr. Laprise: 1.	What was the annual total tax on alcoholic beverages obtained by the government each year 1962 to 1970 inclusive?
2.	What amount was allotted annually toward the problems of alcoholism in each of the same years?
Return tabled.


FEDERAL REVENUE FROM BEER, WINE AND SPIRITS
Mr. Mather: In the years 1970, 1971 and 1972 (a) what, in dollars, was the federal revenue from beer, wine and spirits (b) what was the total federal expenditure on alcoholism prevention (c) what was the estimated loss to the economy of alcoholism?
Return tabled.


UNITED STATES DOLLAR COMPONENT OF CANADA'S INTERNATIONAL RESERVES
Mr. Nowlan: 1.	What is the specific and detailed form in which the United States dollar component of Canada's International Reserves is presently being held?
2.	What agreements and arrangements, explicit or implicit, have been made, or were applicable at any time, in the past five years between Canadian and United States authorities concerning the level of the United States dollar component of Canadian International Reserves?
3.	Is it the government's policy to seek exchange guarantees of any form for the United States dollar component of Canada's International Reserves?
4.	Is it government policy to attempt to diversify the United States dollar component of Canada's International Reserves?
5.	In the past five-year period what representation has the government or any Canadian official made to United States authorities for an exchange guarantee of any nature for the United States dollar component of Canada's International Reserves and what was the nature and substance of those representations and any replies received to those representations?
6.	During the past five years (a) what "swap" arrangements have been made, or continued, with countries that are members of the Group of Ten (b) what were (i) the details of each of those arrangements (ii) the sums involved (iii) the dates of the activation and conclusion for each arrangement (c) what countries were involved in each case?
Return Tabled.


PURCHASE OF TROPICAL PLANTS BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS
Mr. Hales: 1.	(a) How many tropical potted plants were purchased by all departments of government for the calendar years 1970, 1971 and 1972 (b) what was the cost of such plants purchased by each department of government for the same years (c) what were the maintenance costs for these plants for the same years (d) what was the total cost of plants for January, February and March 1973
September 5, 1973

(e) what was the maintenance cost for these plants for January, February and March 1973?
2.	Were these plants purchased in Canada or were they imported and, if so, how many in each category?
3.	(a) What are the names and addresses of the firms from which purchases were made (b) were tenders called in all cases?
4.	(a) What are the names and addresses of the firms to which maintenance contracts were let (b) were tenders called in all cases?
5.	(a) How many replacements of plants were necessary for 1970, 1971 and 1972 (b) what was the total cost of replacements for these years?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATIONHIRING OF CONSULTANT FIRMS
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Since the Department of Manpower and Immigration was established, how many consultant firms have been awarded contracts to conduct studies within the Department?
2.	(a) What was the name and address of each consultant firm which has received contracts from the Department since it was established (b) what has been the total payment made to each firm to date?
3.	(a) How many of each consultant's recommendations have been adopted by the Department to date (b) what are the names of the firms making the recommendations adopted?
Return tabled.


LIP-NUMBER OF PROJECTS IN DRUMMOND CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Boisvert: For the constituency of Drummond, how many LIP projects were (a) submitted (b) approved (c) what is the name of each project (d) what was the amount paid by the government for each approved project?
Return tabled.


RENOVATION OF CONFEDERATION BUILDING
Mr. Stevens: 1.	(a) On what date was the decision made to renovate offices and facilities in the Confederation Building for the use of Members of Parliament (b) who made the decision?
2.	On what date were tenders called for (a) furnishing (b) renovating the offices and facilities in the Confederation Building?
3.	Were tenders for either furniture supply or renovations called 'for publicly and, if so (a) what were the names of the companies
invited to submit bids (b) how long in each case were tenderers allowed to submit their tender (c) what were the tenders submitted and by whom (d) what companies were awarded contracts for such furniture supply or renovations?
4.	(a) What was the date of opening of tenders (b) were the tenders opened publicly and, if not, for what reason?
Orders for Returns
Return tabled.


NUMBER OF AGRICULTURAL IMPLEMENTS MANUFACTURED IN CANADA
Mr. Matte: 1.	How many agricultural implements of all types used in Canada were manufactured in this country?
2.	How much did each cost?
3.	What is the origin of the farming machinery not manufactured in this country?
Return tabled.


GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING
Mr. O'Sullivan: 1.	Has the government published advertising known as "The Canadian Government Policy of Multiculturism" (a) in what publications and on what dates did this advertising appear (b) in each instance, what was the cost involved (c) was an advertising agency used in the production and the placement of this advertising and, if so (i) what is the name and address of the advertising agency (ii) what was the total amount paid the agency for the advertisement service?
2.	(a) What is the total advertising budget for the current fiscal year of the Ministry of State responsible for Multiculturism (b) of this, how much is remaining as of June 1, 1973, and what future advertising is planned by the Ministry during the current fiscal year?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH AND STUDIES ON THE RISING COST OF FARM MACHINERY
Mr. Yewchuk: 1.	Has the government made any studies of the effects of unions and strikes on the rising cost of farm machinery and (a) if not, for what reasons (b) if so, on what date and by whom?
2.	What consideration is being given by the government to reduce postal and express rates for parts of farm machinery mailed from and to the farmers?
3.	What negotiations have taken place between the government and members of the head offices of (a) John Deere (b) International Harvester (c) Ford (d) Massey-Ferguson (e) J. I. Case (f) Allis-Chalmers (g) Oliver, Cockshutt to lower the prices of farm machinery sold in Canada?
4.	What negotiations have taken place between the government and members of the head offices of Ford and other farm machinery companies, to allow the direct importation of tractors from Britain to Canada?
5.	For each year, 1961 to 1972 inclusive, how many independent local dealers of farm machinery declared bankruptcy in the Provinces of (a) Alberta (b) Manitoba (c) Saskatchewan (d) Ontario (e) Quebec?
6.	Which (a) Canadian-owned (b) non Canadian-owned manufacturers of farm machinery have received incentive grants from the Department of Regional Economic Expansion since 1969?
7.	For each year, 1961 to 1972 inclusive, what was the total amount of money spent by the Department of Agriculture on research and development of farm machinery?
8.	(a) Which universities are receiving financial support from the government for the purpose of doing research in the farm machinery field (b) what was the total amount of the grants given to each of these universities for the years 1961 to 1972 inclusive?

September 5, 1973
Orders for Returns
9.	(a) On what dates have each of the recommendations of the Barber Commission on farm machinery been implemented (b) what have been the results in each case?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE-NAMES OF LAWYERS HIRED FROM PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
Mr. Fortin: 1.	What are the names of the lawyers and legal firms of the Province of Quebec who worked for the Department of National Health and Welfare between January 1, 1969 and January 1, 1973?
2.	What tasks were performed by each one?
3.	What amount was paid to each (a) in fees (b) in travel expenses?
Return tabled.


LIP-CRITERIA USED FOR APPROVAL OF PROJECTS
Mr. Alexander: 1.	What is the review procedure, in detail, for approving of Projects under LIP with reference to Members of Parliament, Ministers and Regional Ministers?
2.	Who are the Regional Ministers for LIP in (a) British Columbia (b) Alberta (c) Saskatchewan (d) Manitoba (e) Ontario (f) Quebec (g) Nova Scotia (h) New Brunswick (i) Prince Edward Island (j) Newfoundland (k) Northwest Territories (1) Yukon?
3.	What are his/her responsibilities?
4.	What authority does he/she have in the final decision process for grants under LIP?
5.	What criteria are used for approving Projects under the Local Initiatives Program?
6.	(a) What consultations are undertaken in the event of an impasse between departmental officials and Regional Ministers (b) how is it resolved?
Return tabled.


NEW HORIZONS PROGRAM-PROJECTS APPROVED IN CHAMPLAIN CONSTITUENCY
Mr. Matte: 1.	How many projects were accepted and approved under the New Horizons Program up to June 21, 1973, in the constituency of Champlain?
2.	What are the names, locations, amounts of aid granted and time limits for completion of each such project?
3.	What criteria are used in the selection of New Horizons projects?
Return tabled.


CANCER RESEARCH
Mr. McKinnon: By province, what were the amounts of money spent on cancer research in each year 1968 to 1972?
Return tabled.


ST. LAWRENCE ISLANDS NATIONAL PARK PERSONNEL
Mr. Cossitt: 1.	What are the names, addresses and specific functions of all persons who are employed by St. Lawrence Islands National Parks at the present time or who have been employed at any time since January 1, 1972?
2.	On whose recommendation were these people hired?
3.	Were such persons processed through Canada Manpower offices in the course of hiring in every case and, if not, for what reason?
Return tabled.


CABLEVISION-OPERATION OF UNITED STATES COMPANIES IN CANADA
Mr. Baker: 1.	Was a court ruling made to the effect that the Department of Public Works has power to order the removal of a coaxial cable from the St. Stephen International Bridge and did Terra Cable Limited file an objection relating to its presence and use with CRTC and, if so, for what reason does the Department allow its continued presence and use?
2.	Does Acadian Cable TV Ltd. make a contribution in any way to Canadian culture, business or national interest and, if so (a) in what manner and to what extent (b) does the Minister of Communications or the Minister of Public Works consider such contribution to outweigh the protection of Canadian-owned business and citizens operating under licence at St. Stephen's, New Brunswick?
3.	Has the government or any board, commission or official thereof approved the use of ANIK I to connect cable television operations originating in the United States, that is, the Tel-PrompTer or any other US company to operate in the Provinces of New Brunswick and Ontario and, if not, is there an application for such authority pending?
4.	To the knowledge of the government, what are the names of the officers and directors of the TelPrompTtr Corporation and does the TelPrompTer Corporation or any of its officers, directors or shareholders have any interest of any nature or kind, direct or indirect, in a company known as Acadian Cable TV Ltd.?
Return tabled.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the remaining questions stand?


Mr. Hales:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the parliamentary secretary's attention the fact that that, although he cleared off a good number of questions today, there still remain under my name question No. 1,809, which has been on the order paper for five months, and No. 2,019 which has been there for four months.


Mr. McKenzie:: Mr. Speaker, on July 19 I placed question No. 2,543 on the order paper. Can the parliamentary secretary give any indication when this question will be answered?


John Mercer Reid: I will look into the matter, Mr. Speaker.
September 5, 1973


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
[Stage Direction]
[ English]
John Mercer Reid: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call notices of motions Nos. 230 and 231.


COPY OF TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC HEARING FOR LICENCE OF NORTHGATE CABLE COMPANY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 230-Mr. Beattie (Hamilton Mountain):
That an Order o'i the House do issue for a copy of the transcript of the public hearing of application for licence of the Northgate Cable Company to be incorporated, February 10, 1970, file No. 6404254.
John Mercer Reid: Mr. Speaker, since the hon. member has been provided with a copy of the document requested I would therefore ask him to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Beattie (Hamilton Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, I have indeed received the document. I thank the parliamentary secretary and withdraw my motion.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped.
NORTHGATE CABLE COMPANY-APPLICATION TO CRTC Motion No. 231-Mr. Beattie (Hamilton Mountain):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the Northgate Cable Company's application to CRTC.


John Mercer Reid: Mr. Speaker, since the hon. member has been provided with a copy of the document requested, I would therefore ask him to withdraw his motion.


Duncan M. Beattie: Mr. Speaker, I did receive it, and I withdraw my motion.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped.
Shall the remaining notices of motions stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask some questions arising out of the Prime Minister's remarks yesterday relating to the position of Canadians in need. The first relates to the price of bread, the cost of a 24 ounce loaf having gone up six cents today. In view of the fact that spokesmen for the
Oral Questions
industry have said that the government's increased subsidy of $1.25 per bushel would not prevent a further increase of six cents on a 24 ounce loaf of bread in the next month, and have categorized the increased subsidy as throwing a stone at an elephant, I would like to ask the Prime Minister how the government intends to back up the assurance that he gave yesterday that the announced increase in subsidy will prevent a further increase of five cents a loaf which would otherwise be inevitable in October?


Hon. Otto E. Lang (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Otto Emil Lang: -the Leader of the Opposition has referred to the increase of 25 cents in the consumer subsidy, and of course he is quite right in saying that this, by itself, cannot have the effect of stopping a further increase in the price of bread. Just as the reduction of four cents some little time ago was minimal influence in the price of bread, so the 25 cents would in terms of real cost only mean a reduction of about half a cent on the price of a load of bread. However, accompanying this has been action on our part in arranging a long-term agreement in relation to the price of wheat in Canada which will be lower than the present world price and will be effectively equivalent to price levels on August 1, both for spring wheats and Durum. People associated with the baking industry have indicated that these two courses of action together should obviate the need for further increases in the price of bread for some number of months.


BREAD-ASSURANCE TO PRIME MINISTER BY INDUSTRY AT THE TIME OF ANNOUNCEMENT PRICE WOULD NOT BE INCREASED
Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question and I ask it because of the comment made by the spokesman for the industry today. Did the Prime Minister or the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for the Wheat Board, have any assurance from the industry that the price of bread would not be increased further in October when the Prime Minister made that statement in the House yesterday?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, we had discussions with representatives of the industry who gave us a clear indication that the six cent increase that has just taken place had included not only the amount necessary to cover the increase in the cost of wheat from $1.95 Vi to approximately $3.25 but that it covered all the additional costs in line with their ordinary increases. They also indicated that if the price of wheat were stabilized there ought not to be a further increase in the price of bread for six months or a year. I would count on the Prices Review Board to ensure that this is so.

September 5, 1973
Oral Questions VETERANS AFFAIRS


WAR VETERANS ALLOWANCE-POSSIBLE ADJUSTMENT OF CEILING TO PERMIT RECEIVING OLD AGE PENSION INCREASE
Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the Prime Minister, still on the question of Canadians in need relating to the position of veterans on War Veterans Allowance-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The Chair will recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition for a supplementary question but I think I should indicate that I do this in view of the hon. gentleman's special position in the House. I think he is entitled to this, but if the supplementary refers to increases in veterans benefits I have some doubts about whether it is really a supplementary. Perhaps it is more a related question. I say this to protect the position of the Chair, generally speaking. The hon. member, of course, will be allowed his supplementary after which the Chair will recognize the hon. member for Saskatoon-Biggar.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to take advantage of my position or your generosity. My question is related to the position of those in need and arises out of the Prime Minister's statement yesterday. It was for that reason that I took the liberty of asking a supplementary relating to the position of war veterans.
In view of the ceiling that now exists on the maximum amount that war veterans can receive, and because this ceiling remains fixed, those who are now receiving the maximum will not derive any benefit from the proposed changes in the old age security or guaranteed income supplement position. Can the Prime Minister state whether the government intends to adjust the ceilings of the war veterans allowances so that the veterans can receive these advantages?


Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, this question was discussed in cabinet and brought to us by the Minister for Veterans Affairs. The minister has the authorization of cabinet to bring forward some proposals and these would be made known in due course.
* * +


EFFECT OF SUBSIDY ON DOMESTIC GRAIN ON WESTERN PRODUCER-NEGOTIATION OF LONG-TERM FLOOR PRICE
Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskatoon-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister in charge of the Wheat Board. In view of the fact that the August based price of wheat which he referred to is $3.18, and that the subsidy of $1.25 will bring that up to $4.43 which is $1.22 less than the present export price of the Canadian Wheat Board, does the minister now say to this House that the western farmer is going to subsidize the Canadian consumer to the extent of $1.22 per bushel?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, what it means is that an agreement of a long term nature is being developed which incorporates a true and effective

two-price system into our Canadian wheat selling system with a floor price in the area of $3.25 as a long-term floor price. I remind the hon. member that the $3.25 figure, which will be the long-term floor for wheat for domestic consumption, is higher than the price which has been paid for wheat in Canada at any time on our history except in the last few months.


Alfred Pullen Gleave: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Since the Canadian Wheat Board Act makes no provision for such manipulation as has been proposed to this House, can the minister in charge of the Wheat Board tell this House with whom such arrangement is being negotiated?


Otto Emil Lang: The arrangement is being negotiated and discussed with the Canadian Wheat Board which of course, can enter into such arrangements easily, say, with a buyer from another country. I think it would be attracted to the proposition of entering into an arrangement for between five and seven years on the basis of a firm price ranging from $3.25 to $4.50. We are having discussions with the Canadian Wheat Board about the length of agreement which would be desirable. We put forward to them the possibility, for instance, of three, five or seven years as the term of the agreement. They seem to favour seven years.

[ Translation]


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Mr. Real Caouette (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary for the right hon. Prime Minister.
Yesterday, he announced a subsidy of 5 cents per quart of milk, and another on bread. Last night, I noticed that milk had already gone up by 3 cents a quart, going from 35 to 38 cents, and a loaf of bread from 37 to 43 cents. Now, will the government subsidies be granted on the basis of the prices before the Prime Minister's statement yesterday, or on that of the new consumer prices?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, the minister in charge of the Wheat Board has just answered the question with regard to bread. In the case of milk, it will be the price of milk paid by consumers in the provinces whose governments will agree to stabilize or lower the price paid in fact by the consumer. The hon. member surely knows that whole milk falls within provincial jurisdiction; the federal government on its own, intends to pay a subsidy of 5 cents per quart sold to the consumer, in order to lower consumer prices and prevent them from going up, provided the provinces agree, through their dairy commissions, to keep prices from going up or even to roll back prices.


David Réal Caouette: Can the Prime Minister tell us when this agreement will be reached with the provinces, seeing the cost price of milk has already gone up by 3 cents a quart since his announcement yesterday?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I believe that as early as yesterday the Minister of Agriculture was to contact his
September 5, 1973

opposite provincial numbers. Somehow, I feel the Credi-tiste leader is alluding to prices in one particular province, but uniformity is not the case in Canada since each province can control the price of whole milk according to the standards of its own marketing board. That is why the federal government has said that it is willing to pay a 5 cent subsidy provided, in fact, it benefits the consumer and not the provincial governments.

[ English]


COMPENSATION TO PRODUCERS FOR LOSS RESULTING FROM DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EXPORT AND DOMESTIC PRICES-GOVERNMENT POSITION
Mr. Frank Hamilton (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board. In view of the announcement of the freeze on domestic milling wheat at some $3.25 a bushel, as opposed to the export price of $5.65 a bushel, will the minister tell the House if producers will be compensated for the $2.40 a bushel spread between export and domestic prices of wheat, as they will sustain a loss per bushel of $1.15 even with the maximum subsidy which will amount to over $60 million a year loss to the western producer.


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the compensation to producers is in the assurance that over the long term the domestic price of wheat will not fall below $3.25, which, as I indicated a few moments ago, was until a few months ago a price higher than we had ever had in the history of Canada.


REQUEST FOR RECONSIDERATION OF AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY ON WHEAT
Mr. Les Benjamin (Regina-Lake Centre):: In view of the representation of the minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board, will the Prime Minister give consideration to revising the 25 cent increase in the subsidy to at least $2 and maintain such a subsidy until such time as world prices fall to a level equal to the present domestic price?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I wonder why the hon. member is suggesting $2 rather than $3, $4 or $5.


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I asked the Prime Minister a straightforward question. Will he give consideration to raising the amount of the subsidy to the full amount of the difference, $1.15. I am only suggesting 75 cents in order that Canadian farmers can avoid subsidizing bread prices in the fall? Will the government consider revising the figure to that amount?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member listened attentively to the Minister of Justice in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board, he would understand that this is in the nature of a contract which the government is prepared to make, on behalf of the Canadian people, with the
Oral Questions
Wheat Board. As the minister indicated, the wheat board is making this kind of contract all the time with foreign countries. This is a guarantee of having a minimum price and a maximum price. This is the proposition the government has put to the Wheat Board and which we are confident they will accept.


INQUIRY AS TO ACCEPTANCE BY WHEAT BOARD OF AGREEMENT SETTING MAXIMUM AND MINIMUM PRICES FOR WHEAT
Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, I think the Prime Minister just answered my question. I wish to ask the minister responsible for the wheat board whether the wheat board has accepted this proposition, whether this is being announced as something the wheat board has agreed to or whether discussions are going on with the wheat board? The Prime Minister announced this matter as though the wheat board had already accepted it.


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the announcement of yesterday followed agreement to the general principle and the figures by the Canadian Wheat Board. We left open the question of the term which would be most desirable for final resolution. That is now being resolved.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member for Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe has a supplementary to the second prong of the original two-pronged question asked by the Leader of the Opposition.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


Jack Marshall: Mr. Speaker, I have a related question for the Minister of Veterans Affairs. In view of the fact the minister now has authority from cabinet to make the increase in old age security exempt from inclusion in the war veterans allowance for those over 65, will he take this action and will it be done in time so that the war veterans falling within this category will receive this benefit at the same time as those receiving the increase in the old age security pension?


Daniel Joseph MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, the government will take steps to see that the veterans get a fair deal.


Mr. Lawrence:: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I will defer asking it until he returns.
6252
Oral Questions GRAIN

September 5, 1973



REQUEST FOR INCREASE IN SUBSIDY ON DOMESTIC WHEAT

Mr. Lome Nystrom (Yorkton-Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. It is supplementary to the first prong of the two-pronged question asked by the Leader of the Opposition. In view of the announcement yesterday that the Canadian farmer will be subsidizing the Canadian consumer by at least $1.20 a bushel, can the Prime Minister assure the House that the domestic price which the farmer receives for his wheat will be no lower than the international price which he receives? In other words, will he consider increasing the subsidy on domestic sales so that the farmer will not have to pay for the consumer's bread?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the real reward to the farmer, and the reason this arrangement is so much in his interest, is that the price of $3.25 is being protected over a period of years during which the world wheat price may fall well below that level. This is according to experiences and is an historic fact. Just as for two years we had an effective domestic price at $3 through the two-price system, which was for quite a long time $1.40 or nearly that above the world price for wheat, the world price for wheat may now be temporarily above the price at which wheat is available to Canadians. However, that may be offset in due course by the price in the world market being below the price of $3.25 which is being protected for the Canadian farmer.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. A number of members are seeking supplementaries. I will recognize the hon. member for Qu'Appelle-Moose Mountain and then try to move on to the next question. If there is time, we will return to this important matter later.



SUGGESTED CONSULTATIONS ON RESTORATION OF INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT

Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Qu'Appelle-Moose Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, my question is supplementary to that asked by the hon. member for Yorkton-Melville. Has the minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board made any contact with the United States, Argentina and Australia with regard to getting a joint declaration of intention to restore the old international wheat agreement to make this policy of the government work?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, we have made it clear to our trading partners including the countries to which the hon. member referred that we support the principle of orderly marketing internationally, as we have just so clearly indicated we do nationally. We are ready at any time to begin discussions toward a meaningful grains arrangement with a proper price range which protects a reasonable price in down-turns and also places a reasonable maximum in up-turn circumstances where a shortage of grain can make such a difference in price. I think it is fair to say that among exporting countries, the United States in particular has not yet shown a readiness to begin serious discussions about such an arrangement.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. John Reynolds (Burnaby-Richmond-Delta):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the fact the government of France has grossly misrepresented the facts concerning the Canadian ship Greenpace III, and in view of the fact the Minister of Defence, Mr. Robert Galley, has announced from Papeete, Tahiti, that notwithstanding the decision of the world court, France will continue its atomic testing, does this government contemplate any steps to voice disapproval of this policy by the government of France?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the government of Canada has already expressed its displeasure and has protested this action. It intends to continue doing so.


John Douglas Reynolds: If the government of France continues this inaction, does the government plan any sanctions of an economic nature such as the restriction of French imports, to make clear our stand on France's internationally illegal policy?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member's question is hypothetical.



PETROLEUM PRODUCTS-INQUIRY AS TO LEGISLATION ON PRICE FREEZE

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. It arises out of the Prime Minister's statement yesterday regarding the imposition of a freeze on the price of petroleum products. Does the government intend to introduce legislation to give effect to this freeze or is it relying entirely upon voluntary restraint by the oil industry? Has the minister had discussions with the oil industry and have they indicated their willingness to adhere to this policy?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No, Mr. Speaker. We do not intend to introduce legislation with regard to the freeze. It is the intention to introduce legislation with regard to divorcing the Canadian domestic price of oil from the American market. Discussions have been held with the producers. We will be having additional discussions with the producers with regard to the request that was made yesterday.



INCREASE IN PRICE OF CRUDE OIL-POSSIBLE ACTION TO ROLL BACK-GOVERNMENT ACTION

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: In view of the fact that the price of crude oil has risen four times in the past nine months, an increase of almost $1.00 per barrel, despite the fact that in recent years the production cost per barrel has declined, has the minister or the
September 5, 1973

National Energy Board made any studies to see whether these increases, particularly the 40 per cent increase effective August 1, are warranted? Does the government intend to take any steps to roll back this price if, as a result of their studies, they find the increase was not justified?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, on the basis of the statement by the spokesman for the oil industry in respect of recent increases, they have acknowledged that they were really only to keep pace with increases in the international prices. In other words, there has been no suggestion on their part that these increases are related to cost increases incurred in Canada. It is for this reason that the general approach there is related to a change in circumstances. The windfall that is occurring here is such that we feel there should be an introduction of either an export tax or possibly an oil marketing board so the windfall would be to the benefit of a wider public.


Mr. Speaker:: The Chair will recognize the hon. member for his second and last supplementary question, followed by the hon. member for Shefford and the hon. member for Fundy-Royal.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his answer which justifies the position we have taken in asking for a two-price system. I should like to ask the minister whether, in view of the statement he has just made, his government is merely going to freeze this escalated price, or does it propose to take any steps to urge the oil industry, or ask parliament for legislative authority, to roll this price back?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to point out that there is a combines proceeding under way against the oil industry in relation to this increase. It would not be my intention to seek legislation in order to return prices to the levels of a year ago.



EXHIBITIONS


Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Environment.
Since the Canadian government has until the end of September to go back on the decision to abstain from taking part in Expo 1974 on Environment which will be held in Spokane, Washington, does the minister intend to have that decision reconsidered by the cabinet?


Mr. William Rompkey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the Environment):: Mr. Speaker, the minister is considering this matter at the present time, and as soon as there is a change in our position I will be glad to inform the hon. member.
Oral Questions INDIAN AFFAIRS



POSSIBLE RECOVERY OF MISSING FILES-MINISTERIAL ACTION

Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Fundy-Royal: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Have the department files which were the subject of an investigation been discovered within the offices of the department itself? Did anybody think to look in the offices before launching a police investigation, and what steps is the minister taking to improve his office procedures?
[ Transla tion]


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the file cabinets were stolen; then, one was found on the roof. I have been told that a quarter of the files have been found in the building and that three-quarters have not yet been found, either by officials from my department or by the police.

[ English]



FINANCE


Alfred Dryden Hales: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address my question concerning Dominion of Canada perpetual bonds to the Minister of Finance. In view of the extremely low interest rate these bonds carry, namely 3 per cent, and bearing in mind that they are held by many widows, senior citizens and people on fixed incomes as well as the fact that a much higher interest rate is now available, would the minister seriously consider calling these bonds in at face value so these people would be able to obtain a fair return?


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. gentleman for the courtesy of giving me notice of his question. Just before the summer adjournment I met with a committee of members from both sides of the House to discuss once again this question of the perpetual bonds issued some years ago. In spite of further research, we still have not found an equitable way to redeem the bonds.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member for Northumber-land-Durham have a supplementary question?


Allan Frederick Lawrence: No, Sir, the minister I wanted has dodged out on me again.
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September 5, 1973
Oral Questions AGRICULTURE



POSSIBLE REMOVAL OF EXPORT CONTROLS ON CATTLE-REQUEST FOR CHANGE IN REGULATIONS COVERING FEEDER CATTLE

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Agriculture and has to do with the embargo on cattle exports to the United States. I would ask whether the government or his department has given consideration to determining if this embargo will end on September 12 when the controls imposed by the United States will terminate?


Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, this all depends on what action is taken by the United States. If they remove their controls we hope to be able to remove our export controls as well at the same time.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in addition to that, between now and September 12 when it is believed these controls will be removed by the United States, will the minister give immediate attention to changing the regulations now in effect which result in feeder cattle of top grades being denied export from Canada while lower grades are allowed to be shipped out with the result that Canadian feedlot companies and organizations have to compete with the United States for our feeder cattle which are under embargo, and this is working havoc with our feedlot operations?


Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, we are watching this very closely. I am in close consultation with the Minister of Trade and Commerce who has the authority to use these export-import permit controls. I am in close contact as well with the Canadian Cattlemen's Association and other organizations. I have had conversations with the feedlot operators in the west and in the east. We realize that a situation does exist and that feeder cattle are going to the United States. I would report to the House, Mr. Speaker, that feeder cattle have moved to the United States in other years in greater numbers than are now moving. This government does not like to put excessive controls on anybody.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!



HOUSING


Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Calgary North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question in relation to his statement in respect of measures to deal with the cost of living. Does the government intend to take any other immedaite measures to control the high cost of housing which is causing a great deal of suffering to those Canadians who want to purchase homes?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I answered a similar question yesterday by

indicating that when further measures are to be taken we will announce them in the usual way.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!



FINANCE


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance a further question. In light of the fact that interest rates have reached an all-time high, causing suffering to those in the middle and low-income brackets, will the government now intervene with the Bank of Canada to make certain that interest rates are either rolled back or controlled?


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman in his quieter moments would understand that interest rates are responding to a very strong expansion in the economy and a very strong demand for credit. The international interest rates have resulted in the unprecedented situation where Canadian interest rates on short and medium-term money are two to three points lower than in the United States and five points lower than in any other industrial country in Europe.


An hon. Member:: So what?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask one additional supplementary question. Do I take it from the answer of the Minister of Finance that he is going to leave the whole problem on the shoulders of the medium and low-income people of Canada, irrespective of the excessive-


Some hon. Members:: Order, order.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. In view of the great number of issues in dispute remaining between railway workers and the companies and the difficulty facing one arbitrator in dealing with all these matters in dispute, is the minister in a reasonably short time going to give consideration to the appointment of three arbitrators, one to deal with each of the unions in dispute with the companies?


John Carr Munro: No, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. member is aware, today we have appointed Mr. Justice Emmett Hall as the arbitrator with reference to the non-operating unions. We are talking now with the leaders in respect of the shopcrafts and the UTU, and we will listen to their submissions as to how they wish to proceed. They might wish to negotiate for a time
September 5, 1973

prior to wanting an arbitrator. They may be desirous of having a different arbitrator than the one we have appointed for the non-ops, or they might be agreeable to working out their disputes within the ambit of the present arbitrator. In other words, I would prefer to leave this until I have a further opportunity for discussion.



DISPUTE WITH RAILWAY SHOPCRAFT EMPLOYEES- JURISDICTION OF ARBITRATOR TO DEAL WITH PAY

David Orlikow: I should like to ask the minister one supplementary question. As I understand it, he has answered the first question in that the appointment of Mr. Justice Hall has been accepted. Could I ask the minister, in view of the fact that a substantial number of the workers in the shopcraft categories are in fact to get an increase of less than 34 cents an hour in pay for this year, whether that matter will come within the jurisdiction of the arbitrator to rule on whether they are entitled to get the full amount.


John Carr Munro: If an arbitrator is appointed with reference to the shopcraft, most definitely yes, Mr. Speaker.



GASOLINE-CONTROL OF RETAIL PRICES-GOVERNMENT POSITION

Mr.   Terry@: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources supplementary to those asked earlier. In view of the fact that some retail gas outlets in southern Ontario raised the price of gasoline ten cents per gallon last night, will the government policy in this regard involve any steps to roll back retail prices or prevent further jumping of the gun in anticipation of a freeze?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I cannot be sure whether they are independents or affiliated to the companies. Of course, the freeze is related to the price of crude oil for sale in markets west of the Ottawa Valley line.


Mr. O'Connor:: Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect, my question relates specifically to retail prices. Is the government going to take any steps in respect of retail prices? I may say to the minister that these are dealers affiliated with companies.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I pointed out that the government policy related to crude oil prices.
Oral Questions HEALTH



FREE DRUGS FOR OLD AGE PENSIONERS-GOVERNMENT POSITION

Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton-The Sydneys):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. May I ask the hon. gentleman if he can advise what progress is being made with regard to the provision of free prescription drugs for all those Canadians who qualify for old age security and any portion of the guaranteed income supplement?


Marc Lalonde: Those provisions among many others are being discussed in the general review of social security for all Canadians, including aged Canadians.


Robert Muir: Mr. Speaker, is the minister in a position to advise just how soon this study and review will be going on and how soon we may have some developments in this regard?


Marc Lalonde: The review is going on now.

[ Transla tion]



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


Mr. Rene Matte (Champlain):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the right hon. Prime Minister.
Could the Prime Minister tell the House whether he follows the policy of informing his colleagues, the provincial premiers, when the RCMP or the Solicitor General tell him of some compromising action on the part of cabinet members in a province?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, the question is really too vague for me to be able to reply to it.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Duncan M. Beattie: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In light of the fact that a labour-management dispute which is going on in the city of Hamilton has halted garbage collection for the past seven weeks and in light of the fact that the health inspectors are out on strike also, would the minister inform the House if he would use his good offices to investigate the smelly situation which could reach epidemic proportions if not halted soon. I ask this question notwithstanding the fact that it comes under provincial jurisdiction?


Marc Lalonde: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member gave the

September 5, 1973
Oral Questions
answer to his own question. This is the exclusive responsibility of the provincial government of Ontario and I think this parliament has given a good example as to what could be done. We are waiting for the leadership of the government of Ontario in that respect.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!

[ Translation]



AIRPORTS


Mr. Claude Wagner (Saint-Hyacinthe):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Transport.
In view of the displeasure expressed by many of the Sainte-Scholastique expropriated people whose spokesmen are here today in the house, does the Minister intend to re-open the Ste Scholastique file to review the apparently justified claims of the people expropriated, especially in the field of farm rentals, so that they will be treated more fairly?


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, Mirabel involved 3,142 cases of expropriation, 2,587 of which were settled, 135 are being settled and 80 have not been settled. Furthermore, 340 have received advances.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Northumberland-Durham.
Order, please. Before the hon. members' victim is lost the third time perhaps he might be allowed to ask the question.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


Allan Frederick Lawrence: Your patience is everlasting, Mr. Speaker. My question relates to part of the statement made yesterday by the Prime Minister, but this one is related to legislation regarding the Combines Investigation Act. I should like to ask the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs when we may be able to view either the details of the bill or the bill itself.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, I am consulting with the House leaders about this. I am hopeful that it will be very soon.


Allan Frederick Lawrence: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the minister could inform us if the legislation has even been drafted?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Yes, it has, although the draftsmen are putting some finishing touches to it.



AGRICULTURE


Mr. Terry Grier (Toronto-Lakeshore):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture. I should like to ask the minister whether he, on behalf of the government, has placed before the provincial milk marketing boards formal proposals embodying the announcement made in the Prime Minister's statement of yesterday and how soon he expects agreement will be reached?


Eugene Whelan: A meeting is now going on in the Sir John Carling Building between the Canadian Dairy Commission, the industry and producer representatives. We hope some conclusion will be forthcoming from this meeting this afternoon.



SUBSIDY ON FLUID MILK-REQUEST FOR ASSURANCE CONSUMERS WILL RECEIVE BENEFIT

Terrence Wyly Grier: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister in the same general area arising from the assurance which he has seen fit to give in respect of a subsidy on milk for consumers. Is the Prime Minister prepared to guarantee to the House that this milk subsidy will be passed on to the milk consumers?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, that is the intention in the statement I made yesterday. The federal government is prepared to pay a five-cent subsidy per quart on milk, provided the provinces give the assurance that was mentioned in my statement that they will either contain or roll back the prices.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, since there are no marketing boards similar to those which exist in the provinces in the two northern territories, the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories, and since this is a matter falling under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, what steps is he taking to ensure that the citizens of Canada in those two northern areas receive the same kind of benefits in respect of these announcements concerning subsidies.
[Transla tion]


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, we are presently studying the best methods to adopt in order to provide the same benefits for residents of the North as for those of southern Canada.
September 5, 1973

[ English |



AGRICULTURE


Mr. James A. McGrath (St. John's East):: Mr. Speaker, since the province of Newfoundland has no milk marketing board, has the government figured out ways and means to make this subsidy effective in the province of Newfoundland where the price of milk is the highest of any province in Canada.


Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, we foresee no real difficulty in doing that in Newfoundland because of the way in which the market operates there. We feel that we can work with the producers. If they do not pass on the subsidies to the consumers we will point out that fact to the food review board so that the public will know the distributors are not acting as good corporate citizens.



ACTION TO ENSURE SAFETY OF AIRCRAFT IN VIEW OF MACHINISTS STRIKE

Mr. Otto Jelinek (High Park-Humber Valley):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. In view of the continuing CPR machinists strike, could the minister advise the House what precautionary steps, if any, are being taken in the servicing of CP aircraft as these airplanes are being maintained by personnel with inadequate experience and therefore the safety of passengers using strikebound airlines is being jeopardized?


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, the Department watches very closely the Canadian Pacific repair shops, and all the security standards of the department have until now been rigorously complied with.



THE CANADIAN ECONOMY


Mr. James Gillies (Don Valley):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. Now that we have had a chance to study the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday, is it proper to define the position of the government of Canada as being that inflation in this nation can be cured by subsidization and selective price controls?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: No, Mr. Speaker.
Oral Questions


James McPhail Gillies: My question is again directed to the right hon. Prime Minister. Am I to infer from his reply, therefore, that the government of Canada is content with the monetary, fiscal and exchange rate policy and is suggesting that these have no influence on the rate of inflation in this country?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The question is hardly in order.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. Barry Mather (Surrey-White Rock):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs which is related to one which was asked him a little earlier today. Having in mind the fact that the meeting of members of parliament from the three major parties in the House yesterday with members of the French national assembly who are visiting Ottawa revealed that our French colleagues supported, first, nuclear testing in the Pacific, and second, had little concern over the Greenpeace protest incident, will the government renew its representations on these points in such a manner as to indicate in the most tangible way the feelings of parliament on this matter?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the House will be interested to know that I will be seeing the French ambassador this afternoon.


Mr. Speaker:: I will now recognize the hon. member for Egmont followed by the hon. member for Athabasca and then call orders of the day.
He	*



THE CANADIAN ECONOMY


Mr. David MacDonald (Egmont):: Mr. Speaker, my question is supplementary to that of the hon. member for Don Valley and I direct it to the Prime Minister. It is also related to questions that I have asked him both yesterday and Friday. Since he has indicated that the program of the government is not totally one of subsidization, and having had a little time to think over the questions raised yesterday, could he indicate in specific terms what legislative proposals the government will be advancing here in order that parliament may deal effectively with the root causes of inflation?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would refer to my statement of yesterday, and to the one I made early in August, he would see that there are fhree prongs to the government's attack on inflation: one is subsidization, and I think that that aspect could not be knocked by the opposition

September 5, 1973
Old Age Security
because they are asking for higher subsidies rather than lower ones. The other is to ensure a sufficient supply, and the third is to come to the assistance, mainly through social security measures, of those who cannot protect themselves against inflation.


Mr. Speaker:: Hon. members will appreciate that we have gone beyond the time allocated under the rules to the question period. I thought I would recognize the hon. member for Egmont on a supplementary question and also the hon. member for Athabasca.



INQUIRY AS TO WHETHER MEASURES ANNOUNCED BY PRIME MINISTER TO COMBAT INFLATION CONSTITUTE GOVERNMENT'S CONTINGENCY PLAN

Mr. Paul Yewchuk (Athabasca):: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Prime Minister. In previous weeks in the House he mentioned that he had a contingency plan with which to deal with inflation. Can the Prime Minister indicate whether the announcement made yesterday represented this contingency plan or whether there is still a contingency plan to deal with inflation?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I answered the very same question yesterday. The hon. member should refer to Hansard.



GOVERNMENT ORDERS

[Stage Direction]
[ Translation]

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from Tuesday, September 4, consideration of the motion of Mr. Lalonde that Bill C-219, to amend the Old Age Security Act, be read the second time and referred to the committee of the whole House.
Mr. Speaker:: As we adjourned last night, the hon. member for Bellechasse had been recognized. I therefore recognize the hon. member for Bellechasse.


Mr. Adrien Lambert (Bellechasse):: these things so that we are all certain that the weakest, the poorest in society gets enough income to live in quite normal conditions. Providence gives to man, man processes goods and the government must ensure their distribution. Some may disagree as to the means to be taken, but it is a fact that in the Canadian society the most practical means we have known up to now has been to have enough dollar to meet the requirements of modern life. Again, I want to assure the minister and the government of our fullest cooperation in having those measures passed as soon as possible. Thus, we could prove to the people of Canada that we are responsible members, that we are aware of the situation. By the way, we saw again earlier during the question period how parliamentarians are concerned about the problem of the rise in the cost of living.
We, Creditistes, propose as a solution to check the staggering rise in prices and salaries that our suggestion be at least given a trial, namely a compensated discount on Canadian prices, on Canadian production, a discount to be made available to consumers, as the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) put it so well this afternoon when he explained in his reply to the leader of the Social Credit party of Canada (Mr. Caouette) that the discount should be passed on to the consumers. So there is only one more step to fuller understanding, that the government do not seek the money required to pay that discount through taxes in the pockets of the taxpayers who already do not have too much, but that it make a sensible use of the Bank of the people of Canada, the Bank of Canada, which has the same powers as any other bank to create credit, to create money.
Then, we would be sure of reaching the goal; consumers would be paying less and the levying of taxes would not contribute to price increases. Mr. Speaker, that is the real solution. Therefore, why not try it on a certain commodity, apply it temporarily or permanently, because I am convinced that after applying it to a certain commodity during a definite period, every Canadian will ask that it be continued, contrary to this policy of prices and salaries control which was applied in the United States with such disastrous results.
This is not the solution. The solution we suggest is the one I have just set forth, and I think it makes good sense if we want the Canadian economy to be brought back to health and to serve all Canadians without problem, to serve all families, so that we can live in a prosperous country with all the freedom we may wish for to and, at the same time, with all the security possible.


Mr. S. Victor Railton (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate, having heard the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) present a package which would bring about changes in two pieces of legislation, and work in escalation of benefits according to the consumer price index. I thought he made a very good case. I realize he had decided that it was about time someone on the government side pointed out the advanced policies that the government had introduced. He also showed the public the practical methods adopted by the government to look after their complaints and to come to their aid.
Old Age Securi ty
I was also in this chamber to hear the screams from the opposition parties. Each in turn claimed that the minister's proposal was its idea originally. And some claimed that the amount provided was too little. I can picture the scene when Gabriel sounds his horn, with St. Peter praising the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) and the Minister of National Health and Welfare for this good bill, and in the background a noisy cacophony hollering, "We thought of it first."
The reason for parliament's recall to deal with the railway strike was quite logical. Everyone accepted without question that as the strike continued its effect grew greater. The distribution system and the economy of the country were sliding into chaos. But the accusations of the opposition that the strike would never have happened if the government had taken steps to control inflation were completely false. They indicated ignorance, or an attempt to mislead the public.
After the debate last week on the railway strike I was glad to note that all parties in the House had expressed some ideas about the legislation, so as to ensure fairness both to the unions and management, preserve job security, and at another time introduce the principle of indexing wages to the consumer price index. I believe that was a very definite gain.
In my opinion this present debate does not have quite the emergency flavour as that on the railway strike, mainly because I believe that restrictive measures taken to control prices often upset the balance of the economy and produce effects that are not visible at the time regulations are enacted.
This innovation of indexing is not new. In this parliament, however, it began with the veterans' pension, then was extended to the railway workers in our suggestions to the mediator, and it crops up again in the minister's bill. It is a fairly sensible attempt to help people on fixed incomes to combat the rise in prices.
One should then look at the inflation rate in Canada and conclude that it is as good as or lower than any other industrial nation in the world. This includes the U.S.A., the U.K. and the European Economic Community. In regard to food price rises, Canada is at least comparable to the U.S.A. and better in many ways; but since the rise is about 5 per cent or more, the government's intervention as outlined will give relief to the fixed income groups and dampen the speed of the rise.
What makes inflation so difficult to control are world shortages of protein foods both for humans and for slaughter animals. Moreover, there has been a big shift and change in diet everywhere. This began in Europe and has now shown up in Japan, China, India, Russia and Africa. Another point in this inflationary cycle is that the U S A. has a large domestic market and its proportion of food exports to its domestic market is smaller than Canada's.
There have been many examples in the recent past of the bad effects of freezes and attempted price controls. Mr. J. Kenneth Galbraith enunciated the economic truth that controls would never work if instituted at the time or in the face of shortages. Controls tend to reduce production and increase scarcity. One other factor in all this is that
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Old Age Security
people have lost confidence in paper money and ordinary securities and a great deal of private investment has shifted toward real estate. So not only do we have some shortage of money and lack of confidence in the financial markets, but there is less money available for risk and venture capital and new business.
Though we may talk about the causes of inflation and though we should try hard to combat it in every way we can, a very practical approach to the problem through the parliamentary processes would be to make sure that our social security legislation prevents hardship in the lower income groups. In spite of inflation, the majority of Canadians are prosperous and an hour of working time still buys more beef than an hour did ten years ago.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) in April this year published a working paper which brought out certain basic values that our Canadian social assistance program should enunciate. First, Canadians should and probably do believe in the independence of the individual. Second, they believe in the responsibility of each person to his neighbour. Third, they believe that there should be equity and justice in the distribution of benefits in this prosperous society.
In other words, we must have independence but also interdependence. As far as possible, all citizens should enjoy good mental and physical health. In this regard we must never forget that good fortune in health is often due to nothing but good luck. In addition, one should consider how Canadians look at the idea of the work ethic. Typically, almost everyone enjoys working for his living, his family and his retirement, and with good grace gives a portion of his earnings to his less fortunate neighbours. We, as Canadians, feel that it is not just the lazy who should get a fair share of leisure. However, we as Canadians also feel that the powerful people in our society should only get their fair share of the increases in national income.
Canadians no longer condone nor admire the private accumulation of great amounts of wealth; nor do they like to see great disparities in income, no matter how menial or, on the other hand, how important a man's occupation may be. Just this morning a report from the board of directors of the Ontario Medical Association discussed this question of professional income. In the past ten years doctors have made money, but they work long hours and accept great responsibility. This will gradually be changed as we learn to cope. We now have very good reasons to apply these ideas and principles that I have enunciated to the present legislation. We can provide escalation to both the old age security and guaranteed income supplement according to the consumer price index.
The working paper of the minister which I mentioned earlier envisaged a joint review by the federal and provincial welfare ministers of the total Canadian social security system, to be completed in two years. It forecast implementation of an agreed upon policy within three to five years, this to be within existing tax levels and following the guidelines coming out of the conference. For instance, family allowances were to be increased by January 1, 1974, and Canada Pension Plan amendments would hopefully be fully escalated in relation to the consumer price index by 1975.

A guaranteed annual income would eventually be available to those people whose earnings are insufficient because of inability to work, or to those people who are not expected to work, such as the retired, the disabled, the single parent families or the unemployables. The latter category results from such factors as age, lack of skills or length of time outside the labour market. This guaranteed annual income was envisaged as being paid in addition to the general income supplement.
These ideas are innovations, but it is obvious in our society that fit and combative people usually do well financially whereas the disabled, the unfit or the non-selfassertive people frequently suffer by comparison. In many primitive societies both in North America and Africa, though cruelties in wartime existed, the aged, the infants and the misfits usually received kindly treatment and a share of the tribal prosperity. They were also included as full members in these primitive societies' activities and consequently had a feeling of belonging.
This act is the beginning of a new recognition of an old fact-the need to supply one section of the community, the elders, with at least a minimal or sustenance level of income. The new act simply changes the old as regards escalation of payments. It brings in quarterly increases related to the consumer price index both on the old age security cheque and the guaranteed income supplement. It does this for both single and married recipients. It does not provide a guaranteed annual income, as it might hope to do in the next five to ten years, at what I would call a dignity level, but it does at least ensure that the old age pension cheque and the guaranteed income supplement will increase quarterly with the consumer price index.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, present inflationary trends may continue despite attempts to turn the tide and all attempts of the opposition to help the government-and I say that advisedly-to provide good legislation to do so. However, since the Canadian economy appears to remain buoyant we can afford this scheme. It will cost us a great deal, but this in turn may dampen the economy's boom. Finally, we must not forget that the next logical step in the future will be to consider the necessity for legislating a guaranteed annual income. Who thought of that first?
I would just like to say, since I have had my chance to speak, that it is my feeling that this debate could soon be brought to a close and the matter sent to the committee of the whole.
[Transla tion]


Mr. Roch La Salle (Joliette):: Mr. Speaker, I would like, if I may, to comment briefly on Bill C-219, which is in my opinion well adapted to the present circumstances. We must readjust old age pensions to take into account the increases of recent months in the cost of living. I hav.e listened to several comments since yesterday and, of course, it seems that all parties are generally in favour of this legislation tabled yesterday by the minister. I for one will certainly not hesitate to support this legislation which corrects the difficulties with which senior citizens have been to grips for some time.
I have also listened to certain suggestions that the amounts which should be allowed to senior citizens could be higher than those presently awarded. I believe it is not
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an exaggeration to suggest the payment of a minimum of $200 per person, considering the cost of living at the present time.
Now, I would like to remind the minister, who is now in the House, of the importance of considering-which I would have liked to see-whether it would be possible under this bill to extend the OAS to the spouse who has not yet reached 65.
It is absolutely impossible for couples to make ends meet when only one spouse receives benefits.
I suggest that it is normal that, like all other hon. members, I remind once again the minister of the importance of establishing, in the near future, I hope, the possibility of allowing a couple to benefit from the maximum of $340, and I hope that amendments will be made and increases will be granted rather shortly so that those individuals may enjoy proper assistance based on the cost of living.
I would have hoped indeed that the minister would take that opportunity to introduce a bill lowering the age of eligibility for a pension. I wish to say that I will readily support that bill bringing A certain remedy for our senior citizens, but I would like to remind the minister once again-and I think that it is my duty to do so-that judging from the comments made to us as members, every Canadian is in favour of that. I say it again, I have already made a survey on the possibility of reducing the eligible age to 60 and 99 per cent of the thousands of answers I received were of course in favour of such a possibility.
I feel that, as representatives of the people, we must assess technical changes in industry over the last few years. We will realize that, physically, it is absolutely necessary to lower to 60 the age of eligibility for the old age security pension. Is it too much to ask that the minister in charge at least consider the possibility of doing so? Of course, some people, whose work is lighter, wish to work until they are 65. On the other hand, we know thaat in some industries where the work is more demanding, several workers would like to be able to get the old age security pension at 60.
We also know that we would thus also improve the social atmosphere. We would make way for younger people and industry would not complain about rejuvenating its labour force. Due to collective bargaining, it is difficult to remove some of these people today; as a matter of fact, in some industries it is impossible to do so.
Therefore, I think that on account of a lack of work, we are now discouraging young people who are now more learned, better informed. I believe we ought to consider the possibility of granting old security to people 60 years old, at least to those who want it. It is right to say, I think, that we have the responsibility of giving a rest to those who deserve it. After working for forty years, a person who reaches 60 deserves, I think, to retire. This should incite hon. members to favour granting old age security in earlier years.
It seems to me the minister had already shown his interest in this proposal. A few months ago, he said in this House he was giving his word he would take up the matter with the provinces. I hope that negotiations to this effect are already under way. Indeed I hope and believe that the
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Canadian people-in my own riding, the opinion strongly favours this suggestion-would be eager to avail itself of this possibility with all its interesting consequences. This would certainly improve the social climate and I think Parliament should seriously investigate this matter.
The proposition as made is an acceptable corrective, in view of the recently experienced increases, but I feel it is inadequate in comparison with the needs and the changes which workers in industry have known. As evidence of this, I say that in a paper plant which I know quite well, a machine which ran at 300 rpm never rushed its operator nor compelled him to run to do his job. Today, because of the changes, this same machine drives the paper at a rate of 3,000 feet per minute and this forces the worker, even if he is more than 60 years old, to run to do his job properly. This example proves the importance of considering the changes that are happening in industry and the benefits that they may bring.
I therefore believe that the minister is aware of this question today. I urge the government to consider this possibility in the interest of those who are already 60 years old. In view of the present context, I know that the opposition parties could well have a tendency to force the government to take such action. In fact, several hon. members have often stated that they are in favour of such action.
We have heard some members of the Progressive Conservative Party promote a reduction in the pensionable age. I know that the New Democratic Party has long been in favour of a rejuvenation of this legislation. I also know that the members of the Social Credit Party are in favour of this measure. Should I ask all opposition parties to unite and force the government to take this action? We know that we are numerous enough to do this. Of course, you may well tell me that we would have to pay the price for it.
I would like also that we assess the possible savings if, on the one hand, we should grant holidays to thousands of people and, on the other hand, we should found work for thousands of unemployed; I would also like to know what is the cost to society of those unemployed and of the difficulties facing the people nowadays.
I think we could make there important savings which could be very beneficial. In doing so we would, I think, correct and improve a social climate which demands it.
I would like to confine myself to these few remarks. We could make speeches like others did, express many views about the importance of corrective measures needed to check rising prices but I think I must confine myself to this because there will be other opportunities to discuss other issues, other problems or difficulties facing society but I hope that through the plea I make to the Minister first on the possibility to grant the old age security pension at 60 without disregarding the legislation which I find just and equitable with the necessary adjustment, we will succeed in bringing justice to the people and seriously correcting the problems facing us if we lower the eligibility age for old age pensioners for all interested people, all these changes being taken into account.
I hope that the Minister will not wait for the opposition parties that speak loud outside this Parliament and that,
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occasionally, seem reluctant to vote or to force the government to act in this way. Just two months ago I had the opportunity to move an amendment in this direction but unfortunately in spite of the encouraging words from members of the opposition spoken outside this House I found that they voted unanimously against my amendment.
Then I hope Mr. Speaker that they will be more honest and that if they are in favour of granting the old age security at 60 they will not hesitate to so inform the Parliament. It is certainly not enough to speak about it, we must act. If men are judged from what they do rather than from what they say I hope that what they say outside this House will be implemented within.
I hope that the Minister will take kindly to my appeal before the opposition forces him to act in that way. Society as a whole will take into account, I think, a piece of legislation which could prove so beneficial and we shall really bring in the relief which people so badly need.
I hope that these few comments will make the minister more aware of such a measure and I would be very happy for all those who could profit by it.


Marc Lalonde: Question.


Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe North):: Mr. Speaker, I am a little surprised at the minister shouting "question". Yesterday he took a half hour or more to explain this legislation, which needed no explaining because it is simplicity itself. It does not do anything. When it was asked for last March, the minister could not introduce it. Now, however, it is possible.
I compliment the minister. He has not lost any of his skill for touching up things. When he was on this side, he did a good job of touching up things for the people with whom he was associated. He has not lost his skill. He now has a bigger job to do, and a tough one.
Something should be added to this bill. It does not say anything and does not do anything. You pay your income tax quarterly. What a big deal for the old age pensioner to get his cost of living increase quarterly. Is this again to mislead the old age pensioners into thinking we are doing something for them? We should be increasing the basic old age pension so they can get ahead a little instead of behind.


Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Hear, hear!


Philip Bernard Rynard: I want to make some suggestions; I hope the minister will take kindly to them. When answering a question today about care for the aging, the disabled and so forth, the minister used the same skill. He should be named "old man tomorrow", the way he gets around questions in the House of Commons and does nothing. That is a good title. Someone once named Sir John A. Macdonald "old man tomorrow", but he did something. Maybe that is how the name came about originally. Because he weighed everything in the balance, and acted.
The minister has a nice smile. I like him. However, I want to say to the minister that the light is always in the

window calling sinners to repentance. The minister always has the opportunity to repent.
I say in all seriousness that the eligibility age for old age pension should be lowered to 60 for all those medically unfit to carry on their jobs full time. Putting it another way, this means all those 65 or more in calendar years. We always use calendar years to determine when people should be laid off, not physical years. It should be physical years, not calendar years.
Plant doctors and others should indicate those who should be considered. This could be confirmed by an application form for the pension on physical grounds, either from their own doctor or a specialist, if necessary.
I remember when the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) raised this matter with regard to the Canada Pension Plan. Unless one's disability is very severe, it is almost impossible to get a pension. No one knows this better than the minister. A person might be completely disabled as far as remunerative work is concerned and still not qualify for a disability pension. If a person is in a wheelchair, he can qualify. Some illnesses are not that obvious.
Whenever there is evidence that a man is physically or mentally unable to join the work force, he should automatically receive a pension, whether it is the old age pension or a disability pension. The old age pension would be the simpler to institute. Even though a man is unable to work, it is sometimes difficult to prove that he is totally disabled. The minister has completely forgotten this man, or has he? I sometimes wonder whether he glosses over legislation just to meet the requirements of the side on which he sits.
The minister has forgotten that a great number of people live in the grey area, just on the brink or slightly above qualifying for the supplement. They are entirely forgotten. They are the victims of a hard earned dollar turned into a soft dollar by an inflationary spending government.
The minister was critical of what the Tories have done. He put on record that he was once a Tory. He forgets that he joined the Liberals about the time the inflationary spiral began. It was this inflationary spiral that necessitated increasing the pensions. The other day the minister even claimed credit for those increases.
I notice the minister is taking in all this. He carefully avoided mentioning the "six buck boys" because he was riding on the other side of the fence at that time. He forgot about the great philanthropists of the Liberal party in the 1950's.
There were other sins of omission and commission. In 1936, Prime Minister King issued perpetual bonds at 3 per cent after lowering the bank interest so that even 3 per cent would make them mighty attractive. It was understood they would be redeemed before the coupons ran out, or at least when they ran out. This Liberal government said "No dice, we won't pay you" and issued more. Some of those people are the same people who bought bonds and today are being denied justice.
In answer to a question today, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Turner) said the government does not yet have an answer to this question. He should also be called "old man
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tomorrow". What is the government going to do for these people?
I want to quote a case of a man who is now in the grey area about which I have been talking. He cannot qualify for a supplement. He has a few perpetual bonds. At the time he purchased the bonds, he was earning $24 a week, a good salary in those days. He worked six days a week. Today, his weekly salary of $24 would be less than a day's pay, yet the government has the gall to try and redeem these bonds at 39 cents on the dollar. What will 39 cents buy with today's soft money? If the minister will figure it out, he will see that it will purchase less than 15 per cent in housing and food. This is how the senior citizens have been treated over the years. Is it any wonder many of them sit in solitude wondering about the next handout, the misery, and what they will have to do without until the next handout comes along.
The minister boasts about increasing the single pension from $170 to $178.16 and from $324.60 to $341.80 for a married couple. However, he forgets that a bachelor apartment costs $125 per month or more. This leaves a little over $50 per month for boots, clothes and food. The minister also conveniently forgets-and I receive many letters on this point-that in the case of couples when one or the other dies, more often the man first the $324.60, now promised to be $341.80, scant enough to pay apartment rent of $150, leaving $175 for food, clothes-and so on is reduced and whoever is left finds himself in dire straits with just $28 a month for food, clothes and accessories. This is a sad hour for reflection by many who made this country, and made it work with toil, sweat and tears. I should like to ask the minister why he did not do something about this basic problem. These people have to break up their little homes and try to get a one-room establishment in order to cut down on rent and make ends meet. Nothing whatever has been done for these people.
How about the chronically ill people-I have asked this question before-on old age pensions who are trying to live out a daily existence, unwell and needing a little more help because of chronic illness? They are kept surviving at home out of the hospital. The cost of medication is expensive for everyone, but it is doubly expensive for those on low incomes. I should like to ask the minister what in the world he was thinking when he allowed these people to be entirely neglected, as he has over the years since medicare was brought in. The minister knows as well as I that Mr. Justice Hall in his report on medicare recommended that pharmicare services should be included. This has never been done.
This government brought in medicare but nothing has been done for the old age pensioners who are chronically ill, living out of the hospital and not able to buy the drugs they require to continue living out. I suggest that it is penny wise and pound foolish the way national medicare is operated across Canada today. If the minister would sit on a commission to investigate how medicare is operating he would soon find that out for himself.
No consideration has been given to those who are ill and need lifesaving medication. The minister knows as well as I that at age 60 you have four times the amount of illness
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and hospitalization than you have at age 40. Surely this is a burning question that requires consideration on his part.
This government reminds me of those people who drop dimes in the beggar's cup as they pass by. They do this through compassion but they do not think about the problems of the beggar. Basically the minister has done little or nothing for the old age pensioner who is surely entitled to have his pension adjusted to the increase in the cost of living every three months. As a matter of fact, many taxpayers are required to pay their taxes as I stated earlier to the revenue department on a quarterly basis.
This bill is an empty shell. The minister years ago should have given the old age pensioner enough to live on by raising the basic pension to meet the inflationary dollar situation. The basic old age pension should be at least sufficient to provide housing. With the inflation which has existed for the last 10 years under Liberal government the majority of old age pensioners have been left with less than enough on which to exist. At this time only 40 per cent of those over 65 years of age do not receive the supplement, and about half of those in the 40 per cent group have to scrimp and suffer untold hardship to make ends meet. This is why the basic old age pension should be raised and why drugs should be covered under drugcare, or at least those on doctors' prescriptions. What has been done is a little whitewash job to cover the sins of omission in respect of the treatment of old age pensioners.


Mrs. Grace Maclnnis (Vancouver Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, while I was listening to the hon. member who has just completed his speech I found running through my mind the words of one of the hymns of my childhood. I think they describe very well our view of this legislation. The words are:
Showers of blessing,
Showers of blessing we need,
Mercy drops 'round us are falling,
But for the showers we plead.
We get mercy drops from this government, and this legislation is one of those mercy drops for the elderly people of this country. But what we need are showers, or even a first-class thunderstorm, when it comes to providing security for the elderly people. Of course, we welcome these mercy drops, but they are not adequate in themselves to provide security in this day of increasing prices and living costs.
Yesterday my colleague, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), pointed out that the old age security pension has never been raised except in response to pressures of various kinds. As a matter of fact it v/as pressure at the beginning that brought old age pensions into being, pressure which finally became overwhelming throughout the country. I well remember the fact that young families frequently had to take their parents to court and have the court declare that they were unable economically to support their elderly parents before they could get any form of relief. It was that type of thing at the end of the First World War that finally resulted in the first old age pension legislation. Ever since that time we have had a stiff and bitter fight for every single improvement. The pressure has been economic and political, and has been brought to bear by groups of various kinds. I

service. She is looking after her husband in the way of providing meals and the other services the wife ordinarily takes care of. However, in many cases she also performs the medical services he needs. She acts as a nurse and supervisor in respect of a whole host of things which otherwise the state would be compelled to provide.
Such a woman should be paid for the type of services she performs. If she were not there society would have to pay for people to do the work she is doing. The very least we could do is to see that there is a pension for her as well as for her husband, regardless of the fact that she is still under the eligible age. I hope we can do this.
I detected on the faces of some people yesterday, when my colleague was pointing out that the amount of the pension should now be $200, a few incredulous smiles and some looks of complete despair. They seemed to be asking where this is going to end. At the present time there can be no end because we are just carrying out an exercise of pouring water through a sieve. We raise the pensions of elderly people, we raise the pensions of the veterans, and we have a bill to raise the pensions of some public servants. Many other changes come along and all the time we are pouring water through a sieve, because by the time the old age pensioner receives the envelope containing his first pension adjustment, which will come in October, the people in the supermarkets, the landlords and the other forces in the community who have the means of life at their command will take away that increase from the older people.
This is the way it is all along the line. I believe it is high time that we faced up to the fact that there is not very much use in giving all these pension increases if as soon as we give them they are taken away. We are now making provision for the subsidization of bread and milk, and there is some moral suasion to have the price of furnace oil kept within bounds. I suggest, however, that these things are not enough. I have heard across this country-and not only in socialist or NDP circles-a growing clamour that those items of food which relate to nutrition and diet ought to be taken out of the profit distributive system.
I am beginning to hear this, not only on hot lines but in serious discussions on the radio and on television. After all, we will have to come to it some day. We came to it years ago in the matter of water. Water is one of the essentials of life and yet none of us worry or lie awake at night tossing in our beds for fear the price of water will go up tomorrow or for fear that one of the firms handling water will beat the others to the punch, raise the price and make the others raise their price too. None of us worries for fear water will become adulterated. We worry plenty about pollution, but that is another matter. None of us fears that additives will be put into the water to make it look more attractive or to make it sell better so that some particular firm can get ahead. It is this kind of nonsense that is wrecking our attempt to provide security through pensions, this kind of nonsense applied to essential foods.
Bread, butter, milk and protein foods such as meat, cheese, eggs and fish are foods which today are being gambled with, just the way people gamble on horses at the exhibition. I tell you frankly that until we as members of
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parliament start to grapple with the problem of how we can take away these main elements of food from the people who gamble with them-and they are gambled with from the beginning of the food chain, the time when the freight people first get the foods until they reach the supermarket-we will find that our efforts in helping to provide security for the senior citizens and other people will be frustrated. We must find ways and means of achieving a solution to that.
I have been to the supermarkets more frequently in the last while and have found that they have become places of tragedy. I have watched elderly people and harrassed mothers with two or three children clinging to the buggy and following her as she went around the supermarket. I have watched the hopeful expressions on their faces. They do not look at T-bone steaks and other expensive cuts of meat. They look at hamburger, weiners and other small amounts of meat while their faces become longer and longer and they become more desperate, realizing that they can no longer afford those things which are essential and always have been essential.
Until we can provide enough elements of a good core diet for the old people and for families with small children, people on low incomes, we will not be able to resolve this situation and provide the necessary security for older people and in fact for people of any age. I want to say that this is part of the whole problem of social security in this country. That is why I bring it here, without apologies, when speaking on this bill, because it is closely related to it.
This bill will provide a certain increase for older people. The increase is small enough but there are quarterly upward revisions. To be able to keep those upward revisions we must adopt measures in other areas. Let us consider the matter of rents. I wish we could find somebody, perhaps another minister or perhaps even the same minister, who could talk to the relevant ministers in the provinces. In this case it should be the Minister of State for Urban Affairs (Mr. Basford), but so far he has not shown much realization of the fact that people on low incomes or even lower middle incomes simply cannot afford either to buy or rent housing at today's prices. What must be done is for a minister of this government to discuss with the provinces the matter of pulling housing costs into an acceptable price range and holding them there. I think we will have to tackle the important matter of rents. Leadership must begin from here. The provinces have already said-and I have not heard it mentioned here too often-that they are willing to co-operate in the putting into effect of any measures that this government can devise for coping with inflation. I think it is high time that the federal government devised some measure to look after the housing needs of Canadians and to keep the whole price range of new homes within the purchasing power of the middle and lower income people. This cannot be done without lowering interest charges for buyers and without assisting the provinces to work out workable rental legislation which will hold the rents steady.
Mention was made by the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Rynard) of the need to provide free drugs for elderly people under medicare. I will do a little trumpet blowing for a few minutes. Some of you may not have

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realized that British Columbia now has an NDP government which has announced that they are initiating a program to provide prescription drugs for everyone over the age of 65 without charge. I think the hon. member for Simcoe North would be well advised to urge the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) to go to British Columbia to watch that pilot plan in action and then to bring under medicare the sort of scheme that we will put into effect in British Columbia before long.
We must not forget that it was the NDP government in Saskatchewan which supplied the model for medicare and the NDP governments in both Saskatchewan and Manitoba which supplied the model for no-fault car insurance, a system which has been a blessing there and will be a blessing in British Columbia as soon as it is adopted. I suggest that there are places where any federal government could look for a model for ways of protecting people and providing them with social security.
I want to say again that we welcome this legislation. As I said, it is certainly only a drop or two in the bucket, but every drop is welcome so far as we are concerned. It is one more small indication that slowly but surely the notion in this country is beginning to prevail that if we want to create a civilized or even a workable society-remember that this one is not working or we would not have the situation we face-we must have a new motive force behind government, and that motive force must be the meeting of human need rather than the protection of human greed. What this government and others before it have been trying to do for many years is to protect human greed in various ways by looking after the interests of special groups, groups which are privileged at the expense of others who are deprived of what is theirs rightfully. We want to change that. We are at a stage now where never was so much suffered by so many for the advantage of so few. This is one small indication that the government will try to provide a basic pension for elderly people which is worthy of Canada.


Mr. H. G. Herbert (Vaudreuil):: Mr. Speaker, one of the
key measures in the list of steps the government is taking to counteract the effect of rising prices on consumers is a more rapid increase in old age pensions. This House is being asked to approve an amendment to the Old Age Security Act to provide for quarterly rather than annual escalation. This will mean that instead of waiting until next April for increased pensions the 1.8 million people receiving old age security pensions will get a partial increase for October. If prices continue to rise in the next three months they will get another increase in January.
Since last October average price levels have increased by 5.3 per cent over the previous ten month period. As a result the basic old age security pension would be raised to $105.30 effective October, 1973. Price increases in August, September and October of this year would be reflected in the OAS pension rate for January. Price increases in the period November to January would be reflected in the April pension rates, and so on for each quarter. In this way pensions will become much more responsive to recent price increases.

The guaranteed income supplement will also be increased for October, and each quarter after that if price levels continue to rise. A single person getting the full supplement to the old age pension can expect to get $179.16 for October in place of the $170.14 he receives for September. A married couple, both getting full GIS and OAS, will find their $324.60 monthly payment increased to $341.80 for October.
The old age security pension, with an eligible age of 65, is a monthly benefit paid to all people who quality on the basis of both age and residence in Canada. These are the only requirements. Canadian citizenship is not necessary. An applicant must prove his age. However, if necessary, help in obtaining proof of age will be given by the old age security office.
A person may qualify for pension if he or she has resided in Canada, after reaching the age of 18, for periods which total at least 40 years, or has resided in Canada for the ten years immediately before approval of the application, or has been present in Canada, after reaching age 18 and prior to the ten years mentioned above, for periods which equal, when totalled, at least three times the length of his or her absences during the ten year period, and has resided in Canada for at least one year immediately pre-ceeding the approval of the application.
Some types of absences from Canada during the qualifying periods under certain circumstances may be considered not to interrupt residence in Canada.
A person should apply six months before reaching pensionable age. This allows time for proof of age to be obtained, if necessary, and for the history of residence to be confirmed.
Payment of pension normally begins in the month following that in which a person reaches the eligible age. If a person is late in applying he or she can be paid retroactively for up to one year.
If through infirmity, illness, insanity or any other cause a pensioner is considered to be incapable of managing his own affairs, the pension may be paid to any person or agency appointed by the regional director to act on the pensioner's behalf. Such a person or agency is required to account to the regional director annually, and at the end of the appointment, for money received and spent.
An old age security pensioner may receive a guaranteed income supplement if he or she has no income other than the pension, or only a small amount. An application for the guaranteed income supplement is sent to each old age security pensioner around the time application for pension is approved. Accompanying the application is a booklet giving details of the plan and a guide to help in completing the application form.
Anything considered as income for income tax purposes is counted as income for the purpose of the guaranteed income supplement, even if the amount is not large enough to require payment of income tax or even if one did not file an income tax return.
Income does not include possessions, savings, investments, or a home or property that one may own; nor does it include for purposes of the guaranteed income supplement the old age security pension itself. Income is any
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money one receives in the form of retirement pensions, earnings, interest, dividends, rents, etc.
A review of the history of universal old age security and guaranteed income supplement payments indicates that universal old age security payment replaced needs-tested payment. The guaranteed income supplement has been introduced. The escalation formula has been introduced for the OAS and GIS. A special GIS rate for married couples has been introduced, and full cost of living escalation has been introduced for OAS and GIS, with henceforth quarterly escalation.
It is interesting to note that over 1,800,000 persons are presently receiving old age security payments in Canada. Of this total 576,000 receive partial benefits under the guaranteed income supplement plan, and some 478,000 receive the full benefit of the guaranteed income supplement.
The cost to the taxpayer of old age security in the year 1972-73 is $1,786 million, and the guaranteed income supplement adds another $739 million, for a total of over $2 Vi billion. In 1973-74 the estimate for old age security is $2,203 million, and for the guaranteed income supplement $750 million, making a total of almost $3 billion. This represents something like 15 per cent of the total federal tax load, and if related to personal income is something in the order of 50 cents on every dollar of federal personal income tax.
Not only has the government given Canadian senior citizens improved financial security through the most generous old age security plan in the world, both in terms of benefits and eligibility, but the energy and creativity of so many of our older people are also being rewarded through the New Horizons program which is administered by the Department of National Health and Welfare.
It has met with overwhelming acceptance by retired citizens as a means of helping themselves remain active in our country's activities and provide a service for their peers who for some reason are cut off from the mainstream of Canadian life. By the end of this month the program will have provided funds totalling more than $7 million for just over 1,100 projects in its ten months of operation, and by the end of this year we can expect to have added to that a further $2.3 million in funding.
This, Mr. Speaker, will be the second time this year that the government has increased the old age security pension. Last April it was raised to $100 a month from its previous level of $82.88. In May of 1972 the 2 per cent ceiling on escalation was removed, and full automatic escalation was extended to both the guaranteed income supplement and the old age security pension.
In the period since 1967 when the GIS was first paid the combined pension has risen from $105 to $179.16 for a single person, or from $210 to $341.80 for a married pensioner couple. I
I am disappointed that the parties in this House were not able to reach agreement on an early termination of this debate. Mr. Speaker, we believe that Bill C-219 deserves and, it is to be hoped, will soon receive unanimous support.
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Mr. Eudore Allard (Rimouski):: Mr. Speaker, without any personal preliminary comments, I would like to offer my most sincere contribution to the fight against inflation, unemployment and poverty, in the present and normal framework of our monetary, economic and political systems of free enterprise as they exist and operate today in Canada.
I will give immediately the basic principle underlining the global view I want to give of the present situation of our national economy in 1973 and of a slightly different way of checking the economic, national, personal, familial or social imbalance which affects all of us through the well known problems of inflation, unemployment and poverty. This basic principle is as follows: the same monetary, economic and political systems which make possible such a magnificent national production of over $114 billion in 1973, that is an average of $5,000 per citizen, or $25,000 per family of 5 persons, could also allow us to legislate in such a way as to distribute in a more adequate fashion these resources amongst the persons, the families and the business enterprises which make up our country.
This basic principle is translated into a practical technique, in a recognized down to earth formula which is called "merchandizing". All businessmen, producers, real producers, produce not for production sake but for consumption, for the distribution of their production, for the needs of their customers capable of paying the going price. With this basic principle, this practical technique there is every chance to attain the goals chosen instead of letting ourselves be carried by chance, tradition, conservatism, superficial, patchwork, slap-dash methods inpired by intellectual or mental anemia. Having clarified the basic principle and practical technique which guide me, I trust my explanation will serve as a basis in judging the relative value of my way of understanding and remedying the present economic situation, and that of the government as expressed by the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) and contained in the bills now being put before us supposedly to check inflation.
Please note, however, that according to me it is not enough to check inflation, unemployment and poverty; we must, above all, correct the situation and restore permanently the national economic balance between individuals, families and business enterprises of all sorts.
The national economic imbalance of inflation, unemployment and poverty which affect all strata of society is not the result of chance, but that of the legislative measures passed by the 264 Canadian ministers and members of Parliament elected by the people. They alone have the right to vote in Parliament for the passage of bills on the distribution of income and taxes among individuals, families and business enterprises.
If production in Canada, in 1973, reaches $114 billion or $5,000 per capita, Canada will rank amongst the richest nations in the world. We can see that all our economic ills are but the result of a poor distribution of the extraordinary production amongst all Canadians, each one of whom has the right to live.

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Providence has placed an over abundance of all things in nature. There is always too much for all and enough for everyone. Nature lacks nothing, but its managers are remiss in the distribution of its wealth.
All 264 federal ministers and members of Parliament are Canadian consumers. All presidents, directors and managers of our larger private and public corporations are also Canadian consumers and depend on the 22 million Canadian consumers who need a 1973 purchasing power to live in 1973.
The input of capital, international trade, and multinational companies contribute to our national production in 1973. All those factors are subject to and governed by Canadian legislation in 1973.
The 264 federal ministers and members can immediately transfer $18 billion of eager capitalization to a lagging consumption within our monetary, economic, political, regular, capitalist, and conventional systems of free enterprise.
It is through legislative action that our governments have fostered poverty, unemployment and inflation. It is through reverse legislative action that our governments will restore the national economic balance for all Canadians.
The 264 ministers and members of the Parliament of Canada, elected by all the people of Canada, can immediately transfer, if they want to, $18 billion from the ambitious capitalization to the deficient consumption out of the 1973 production, and that's that.
These $18 billion will be drawn solely from concrete reserves, discretely or secretly constituted by multi-millionaire or billionaire companies, thanks to tax exemptions, excessive safety reserves or unjustified depreciations. Understand if you will, but all the harm comes from there.
Without any tax increase, without any price increase, our present 264 ministers and members will be able to reduce the income tax of the nine million Canadian producers, for their work or their capital, and pay to the 13 million dependent Canadians, without work or capital, a vital personal minimum in every household, lodging, home or slum in Canada, in 1973.
All 22 million Canadian consumers will thus find themselves revalorized by this tremendous increase of their purchasing power, for themselves or their families, regenerated by a more complete participation in the national production, and all the 264 ministers and members will have fulfilled their role which is to see economic justice prevail in a just society.
All 9 million Canadian producers would have their taxes abated by roughly 40 per cent. They would pay $3 instead of $5, $300 instead of $500, $3,000 instead of $5,000, and all 13 million dependent Canadians in every house, housing unit, residence or slum in Canada would receive their guaranteed personal income in accordance with the following table:
1.	$30 a month per citizen between the ages of 0 and 9;
2.	$60 a month per citizen between the ages of 10 and 17;

3.	$90 a month per citizen between the ages of 18 and 59;
4.	$200 a month per citizen 60 years of age and over.
However simplified this program might seem at first
glance, a serious analysis will prove that it could replace to advantage the many present allowance, grant and pension programs which are not satisfactory and require too many useless inquiries and requests.
Any citizen earning less than $50 a week or $2600 a year may be considered as a dependent citizen and claim that amount.
Nine million Canadian producers derive income from salaries or interest on their capital and pay the required taxes; 13 million dependent Canadians without work or capital have a right to live and claim their guaranteed vital right or guaranteed personal income; 22 million Canadian consumers thus become economically more valuable in the eyes of the state, society, and all their fellow-citizens.
Mr. Speaker, let hon. members and ministers be optimistic and practical in view of the great national output produced by 9 million working Canadians. It is possible to meet the needs of 22 million Canadian consumers, including the 13 million dependent Canadians who are entitled to that production according to a distribution determined by the government.
Mr. Speaker, inflation, unemployment and poverty are the three main symptoms of the national economic imbalance which still plagues all Canadian people, from the top to the bottom of the economic and social scale.
Only if the national economic balance is restored among individuals, families and companies will poverty, unemployment and inflation disappear from our midst. Only the government of Canada has the power to restore as soon as possible and maintain afterwards the national economic balance that would remove poverty, unemployment and inflation, for the benefit of all Canadian citizens and that, in 1973. All that is needed is to so decide before God and before men.
No high official, or academic, or professional body, or union or national or provincial economic council, no religious group, catholic, protestant or other, no nationality, English, French or other, no political party, or election fund, no bank manager or company president or director has the right to pass legislation in the Parliament of Canada. Only the 264 members, elected by the Canadian people, have the right to vote in the Canadian Parliament on behalf of the 22 million citizens of Canada.
Therefore, it is now, in 1973, that the present problems must be solved. The same constitution, the same Confederation, the same financial, economic and political mechanisms that provide the Canadian people with the tremendous national product of $114 billion, can thus enable us to ensure a fairer distribution among the 22 million Canadian citizens who live in the 6 million houses, residences or slums across our beautiful Canada. The 264 Canadian members of Parliament, the 30 ministers, the Prime Minister, and especially the Minister of Finance as well as the Minister of National Health and Welfare, with the minister responsible for the Treasury Board and the three leaders of the opposition parties are the only Canadians responsible for restoring the national economic balance
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among individuals, families and companies within the Canadian economy in 1973, in our present government.
Mr. Speaker, that is what we could do with the present monetary system, if only it was really set up in a way to give satisfaction and do more justice to all Canadians.


Claude Wagner: Mr. Speaker, in view of this capital legislation, we would be tempted to wonder why hon. members are losing their time making speeches when they all agree. Politics is rather curious. If a member refuses to speak, to say that he agrees or disagrees, there will always be someone to claim that he dared not state his views or that he was opposed to this relief given by the government to the aged.
So it is important on the occasion of a debate on such a legislation that very briefly every one voice his approval or disapproval so that our views be on the record. At least, we have given an opinion.
Mr. Speaker, I would be happy if we discussed the bill in a less partisan way than in the beginning. I was surprised indeed when the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) got carried away in his first words. He was not satisfied with introducing a pretty valuable legislation, he took advantage of the situation to launch partisan attacks, to discredit upon what may have been done when Conservatives were in power, to reserve for himself and the Liberal party the merit of this legislation and previous bills, claiming that in the field of social security and social progress, the people opposite possess the whole truth.
It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that people who heard speeches from the gallery or read Hansard wonder why we have to play partisan politics on the backs of senior citizens, children or welfare recipients. On the contrary, it seems to me that if the treasury is in a position to give more relief to the aged, it is the Crown, Parliament which is responsible for it. No political party or politician can lay claim to all the merits of a legislation for himself or his colleagues.
Mr. Speaker, I understand the pretexts or excuses to justify those positions. Within a few days the members of the government will participate in a great annual convention which will take place September 15 and where they will consider the attitude of the Canadian public towards their party last October. They will probably come to the conclusion that the Canadian people have been extremely wise and they will probably also conclude that the convention of September 15 may be followed by another one where they will be able to decide once and for all what will happen to their party.
Be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, I believe that speeches with electoral undertones such as those given here should be set aside for other occasions, and I urge the Minister of National Health and Welfare to repeat, maybe even more violently, the first part of his remarks before his supporters at the convention. This convention will open at the same time as the official statistics on the cost of living are published, in September. Maybe Liberal supporters will then also come to the conclusion that this government is unable to solve the problem of the cost of living and the problems of the Canadian economy. In fact, one crisis follows another while the government hopes for a miracle from one week to the next, but certainly this miracle does
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not consist in legislation as inadequate and ineffective as that which we are studying today.


Jean Marchand: That is not partisanship!


Claude Wagner: Mr. Speaker, we are quite willing not to be partisan, as the Minister of Transport (Mr. Marchand) says and to give justice to those who deserve it. But what strikes me is not so much the gist of this legislation, but the attitude, the overbearing manner, the spirit in which it is introduced, similar to that which the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde) showed in introducing the bill, and that in which the Minister of Transport responded at noon today, by quoting statistics, to a deeply human problem, for instance, that experienced by the expropriated people of Sainte-Scholastique. Reacting with the arrogance our hon. friends opposite have showed for some time will not develop trust in our political leaders and institutions among the Canadian people.
Mr. Speaker, I will talk about this bill. I am quite willing to say that escalating old age pensions in line with the cost of living has some merit. However, it should be recognized that a year ago almost to the day, we traveled across the land and solemnly promised to increase these pensions and, in co-operation with the provinces, stated that escalations of these pensions in line with the cost of living index would be necessary so that these periodic readjustments would not be immediately eaten up by the increases in the cost of living. I even pointed out at that time that obviously this would not permanently solve the problem. I feel that there are other values which are much more important than that of purchasing power and which are certainly not properly served by an increase of a few cents or a few dollars.
You will remember, Mr. Speaker, that at that time our friends opposite retorted, as reported on the first page of the newspapers: The Progressive Conservative Party members, especially Wagner, are making stupid and unconsidered promises. And these same Liberals only had, Mr. Speaker, to be barely returned to power and to remain in power, thanks to the NDP's systematic prostitution and to be hard pressed by a dynamic, alert, courageous and powerful opposition, to adjust their firing-that is part of an excellent strategy,-and to make their own several Progressive Conservative commitments, among which the subject matter of Bill C-219. Therefore, let us give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar: Let us recognize where the good things come from and let us accept them for the good of the Canadian people.
Let us stop playing a hypocritical game.
Of course, we will vote for this measure to amend the Old Age Security Act in order to provide quarterly adjustments, to the pension and guaranteed income supplement based on the quarterly increases in the consumer price index. However these provisions affect only the present pensioners and in no way reach people of 60 to 65 years of age. While waiting for a guaranteed minimum income policy, I ask the government to specify its views on the possible and gradual eligibility of Canadians aged from 60 to 65 years to the old age security pension. I ask the government to deal with the situation of the citizen of 60

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to 65 years whose spouse is already aged 65 years or more, in order that he may now receive a pension. During this debate, it seems to me that the Minister of National Health and Welfare, if he can take a moment at the end of the debate, ought to answer these questions asked by thousands of Canadian men and women who are directly concerned. This question never ceases to crop up when we visit our constituencies and have the chance to talk to various classes of people. It is of concern to them and should, I think, bring a response from the government as soon as possible.
The sole reference which may be made to this operation's cost in millions of dollars is not, in my view a satisfactory answer. It is not because someone says: This will cost one, two or five millions more that this is an adequate solution to a human problem, especially when we know of the shameful waste in the spending of public funds and when we know that the wrong projections of this Minister of Finance, once adjusted, enable the government to make greater contributions from the Treasury without raising taxes for that. Millions of people are guided toward foreign aid and other activities in foreign countries so that the reports we receive allow us to think that it is quite possible those funds are not distributed as a businessman would. All that constitutes a record that I, for one, in any case, intend to look into in coming weeks to find out if those funds made available by the government of Canada and distributed by CIDA truly reach their destination and are truly used to help underdeveloped foreign countries in need of them.
If in reply to the requests voiced here for the 60 and 65 year olds reference is made to the concept of guaranteed minimum income or the objective of coherence in the field of social security, to be considered suitably, that concept will have to be further specified by the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Lalonde). As a matter of fact I wonder-and that might be another question for the minister to answer-what has been done since the release of the yellow paper last spring on the question of guaranteed minimum income.
Surely, I hope the government will give us explanations on the subject because it is not a type of subject that should be saved only for an election campaign. That question could well be examined thoroughly and intelligently in this House and could well constitute a subject matter to be examined by the parliamentary committee.
In any case, Mr. Speaker, this bill pertains only to those 65 and over. In support in that regard of my colleagues of the Social Credit I ask the government in the expectancy of a guaranteed minimum income for all, to refer to the committee of the House that whole question of the 60 and 65 year olds. Is this financially possible? What are the true objections? What are the statistics concerning this? How can this be interpretated in the various areas of this country? What decisions should be taken and can the budget warrant such a decision?
It seems it would be in our interest to air the whole question in a committee of the House, using the information the government has and adding ours. Let that committee make its study without delay, a study leading
(Mr. Wagner.]
eventually to recommendations that could probably be referred to a federal-provincial conference on social security.
This bill, concerning people of 65 and over, is a step forward in that the increase already granted the golden age people would mean a somewhat better position, because that increase would not be completely eroded by the ceaseless increase in the cost of living. But the Canadian people will quickly understand, and especially the pensioners, that this is not all the same a real and net increase. It does not mean either an increase in the purchasing power of the 65-year old people but at the most a normal and just measure to maintain the pensioners' purchasing power. So that, Mr. Speaker, the people of 65 or over find themselves like their fellow citizens, like the average citizen, the knife-grinder, the dealer, in that they are at grips with the cost-of-living problems.
The measures announced by the right hon. Prime Minister to check the cost-of-living increase are but a partial solution to the inflation problems on the national level. Moreover, those measures came once the harm was done, when the crisis was at its pinnacle. And we realize today how appropriate it was for my party last Friday to be able to have Bill C-219 amended so that the railway workers may get a better treatment to cope with the cost of living.
The government, Mr. Speaker, did not worry enough about the condition of the average people, the average Canadian, the ordinary taxpayer, the one whose tax is deducted from his salary, the one who cannot cheat the revenue department. Those Canadians are probably the ones who are forgotten by this government. The government has not announced anything, for instance, concerning rates of interest on mortgages, the 11 per cent tax on building materials, transportation, special taxes on clothing for adults. He stopped half-way, that is with clothing for children. There are so many areas beside food where the constant increase in the cost of living is being felt. And yet, most Canadians, whether they are less or more than 60 years of age expected some concrete measures in these specific areas. The government was content, unfortunately, with a partial approach and incomplete solutions, mostly because of the cost of living, but also for other reasons which stem from the very concept of our society.
Social unequalities go unchanged in this country. The imbalance in the access to human achievement is also being perpetuated in this country. In the very name of social justice, more should have been done, Mr. Speaker. In order to convince ourselves better, we have but to read the Labour Day message of the Canadian Catholic Conference.
I do not intend to repeat what the bishops said, even though I am in excellent company, but I will limit myself, Mr. Speaker, to quoting four sentences which could probably be reflected upon by us all while we discuss the problem of the cost of living, and in particular, its incidence on senior citizens.
Here is the first sentence:
1.	Why must the little consumers with fixed incomes bear the weight of the spiraling cost of living while corporations continue to increase their profits?
September 5, 1973

2.	Why is it that one Canadian out of four cannot adequately fulfill his basic needs for food, clothing, housing, while others get rich in the food, clothing and real estate industries?
3.	Why does it cost so much for some people to eliminate their debts while banks and finance companies accumulate abusive profits?
4.	Why is it that international trade agreements are usually in favour of developed countries to the disavantage of those countries which supply the raw materials?


Mr. Roy (Laval):: Are there answers to these questions?


Claude Wagner: We realize, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member for Laval (Mr. Roy) is suggesting, that the answers must come from the government. The government must have leadership and undertake to eliminate these disparities. There will no doubt always be disparities, but as long as the government has enough heart and courage to take the necessary decisions, we can believe that answers will be found to those questions asked by the bishops. But when a government is more interested in hanging on, in running with the hare and hunting with the hounds, in looking out for its left wing and buttering it up, in delighting itself in a statu quo situation, then we shall never get answers to those questions asked by the bishops and the Canadian people.
Mr. Speaker, we must also realize that the bill now before us is valid only in the short term, as a palliative, a necessity, an answer given by the present system. Thus, it is inappropriate, ineffective and inadequate because it does perpetuate marked disparities in our society, favouring one class in particular, chastising another and ignoring all the others. Above all it does perpetuate one supreme value, namely the concept of the purchasing power.
Let me quote the last part of the bishops' message on social disparities.
Consumer power has become the unequivocal symbol of a social class . . . This assessment based on financial resources creates new social gaps which are more difficult to fill than those which exist between people speaking different languages. How can we be proud of this institutionalization of social segregations?
Mr. Speaker, most of the people who will be affected by this bill, will not, I am afraid, get very much out of it, because of the steady increase in the cost of living. This bill does not root out in any way the evil which makes them, like many of our citizens aged between 60 and 65 and ordinary citizens generally, people who have worked all their lives, and have earned money that has been given out to those who already have too much. The measure of justice which is commensurate with the fundamental values of man, where human fraternity is concerned is still to come.
I hope the government, during this debate, inspired by the contents of the yellow paper or something else, will tell us about the measures to come, the legislation being considered, which will be more in harmoney with our new collective conscience, especially among the youth of this country.


Mr. Jack Cullen (Sarnia-Lambton):: Mr. Speaker, I listened with some interest to the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe (Mr. Wagner) who, as a former barrister and a distinguished judge, I am sure was told during one of his law lectures that when you have the facts on your side you
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pound them into the jury, when you have the law on your side you pound it into the judge, but when you have neither the facts nor the law on your side then you pound the table.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Jack Sydney George (Bud) Cullen: That is what we found the hon. member doing. I noted with interest that in his comments he made reference to the Canadian Catholic Conference but that he would not read from its report. It was a pretty well selective bit of reading that he did. Perhaps I might be permitted to commit the same sin. On page 8 of the English text they commend the government and the action it has taken, and they say this:
In this country the Working Paper on Social Security in Canada proposes certain steps towards some measure of income equality. How many of us have given these proposals much attention?
So I suggest with respect to the hon. member that he should re-read that in both official languages to see if he can get the gist of the bishop's message. He said that he did not think we should become too much involved in a partisan political debate. I am not surprised that the hon. member has made this recommendation because in looking at their political background in this area his party are weak. We heard the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Rynard) talk about physical years and we heard the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe (Mr. Wagner) talk about calendar years, which is what his cohort indicated they should not be talking about. Then the hon. member for Simcoe North said it is not fair to compare the amounts of the increases because in 1963 there was not the same inflation.
I suggest that the hon. member is really saying that they should not have received any raise during that particular time because they did not need it. If we go along with that and say because there was no inflation they did not need a raise, the hon. member's party had 207 or 209 seats and it seems to me they could have done something to provide some help to these people in respect of the cost of drugs. I do not see one reference in Hansard during that period where the hon. member made the speech he made today about the government doing something about the cost of drugs.
It would seem to me that something could also have been done at that time for housing senior citizens. If that government had been doing what this government is doing, we would have had 20,000 housing units for senior citizens dating back to, say, 1958. What a giant step forward that would have been. But the Tories looked at it with their "tunnelvision", as they seem to do so far as senior citizens are concerned, and said that because there was no inflation they really did not need the money, and decided to turn their attention to something else. Nothing was done about drugs and nothing was done about housing. Nothing substantial was done to give dignity to the senior citizens in programs such as the New Horizons Program. So I am not surprised that the hon. member does not want to become involved in a political debate, because he knows, as a distinguished barrister, that he does not

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have much of a case or that certainly his party does not have much of a case.
I listened very carefully and attentively, as I always do, to the hon. member for Vancouver Kingsway (Mrs. Maclnnis). I heard her comment to the effect that we should be paying married couples $400 a iponth. She did not suggest how much that would cost, but I suggest it would be something in the neighbourhood of $1,300 million. The NDP is different when it forms a government from when it is in opposition. We have heard the NDP talk about $400 a month, but what does the NDP government give when it is in power in certain provinces? In British Columbia they suggest $250 a month is enough. In Manitoba it is $242 a month. In Saskatchewan it is $219, plus a 5 per cent increase announced in August which takes it to $230 a month. What is the highest figure in one of the richest provinces, British Columbia, where most of the money to be spent was raised by the Social Credit Party? The amount in that province is $250 a month. Half of that amount comes from the federal treasury.
It is one thing to be in opposition; it is another thing to be in government so far as the NDP is concerned.


David Orlikow: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: The hon. member would have to have the consent of the hon. member who has the floor.


Jack Sydney George (Bud) Cullen: Mr. Speaker, I am very anxious to see this bill go to the committee stage today. I would be quite happy to take the question right now, but-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Jack Sydney George (Bud) Cullen: If hon. members are prepared to agree to second reading and proceed to the committee stage I would be happy to sit down now. I do not think it is necessary to catalogue what the government has done; it has been fantastic. Mr. Speaker, might the question be put now?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: Order, please. Other members are standing up, so there does not seem to be unanimous consent.


Jack Sydney George (Bud) Cullen: I must say I regret that. This bill provides for a very ordinary run-of-the-mill increase based on the cost of living. I think the tactic and the idea behind this is good. I believe it is necessary. I am afraid, however, that there does not appear to be unanimity among the opposition parties. I notice that no members from the Liberal Party stood up. They are prepared to pass the bill and refer it to the committee stage.


Mr. Macquarrie:: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There seems to be a grasping for consensus by the hon. member. We are, as we were last night, prepared to facilitate the passage of this bill.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: Order, please. Is it the wish of the House that I ask whether there is unani-
(Mr. Cullen.]
mous consent to put the motion for second reading at this time?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[ Translation]


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: I am wondering if the House would give unanimous consent to proceed immediately to the second reading of the bill and to its reference to the committee of the whole.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon-Mr. Laniel in the chair.
Gérald Laniel: Shall clause 1 carry?


Henry P. Latulippe: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to say a few words on clause 1 of Bill C-219.
Mr. Chairman, this bill is very important even if we know that it will not solve our problems; we must apply ourselves to restore a national balance between the various economic social and legislative elements in this country. We have legislation to pass because of the effects of the present system which has thrown our economy off balance to such an extent that it is necessary through legislation and regulations to increase pensions, salaries, etc. Mr. Speaker, people are not satisfied and amendments must be introduced and corrective measures must be passed in several fields.
I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the modern state is man's enemy. In the midst of this chaos, there is however one thing: the success of science. The results are there before our eyes as evident as the light. Science itself gives proof of it, as it is a perfect success in its own field but men use it as an instrument of exploitation and domination. We are always exploited, dominated by various factors. When there is no war on we experience a general unbalance in our economy, tax increases, problems for our population, increases in prices, in the unemployment rate too, and we witness a general unbalance of our economy. We have no stability and the bill before us is far from being able to stabilize the economy as much as it should.
Mr. Chairman, the development of interplanetary rockets is wonderful in itself. Man is freed from the universal gravitational pull, the cosmic route is open, all planets are within the reach of any man or nation: is it not magnificent, Mr. Chairman? In this age of plenty, when science is as advanced and applied as it is, we can hardly find the most simple solutions. We cannot make them available to the people so that they may live in reasonable comfort. We hear of nothing but surpluses in our economy; we hear of nothing but production increases and we are bothered by overproduction. In front of so many wonders the pride of men knows no limit but at the same time on earth at least one billion people out of three billion do not fully fill their stomach. And we have the guts, Mr. Chairman, in our economy, in this Parliament to give subsidies, to pay exorbitant amounts of money through taxes taken out of the pockets of citizens who do not have enough, to reduce our production. It is a ctime, Mr. Chairman, vis-a-vis
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humanity. Instead of reducing production we should provide funds to increase it, to make available to a greater extent to Canadians and those who need it in the world. In front of so many wonders the pride of men knows no limit. In that foolish run towards ever more science, more technology, more conquests of a material nature, humanity is heading the wrong way.
It is not a question of condemning science or technology Mr. Chairman, but of proclaiming that they are not an aim per se, that they have their limits in any case, that they must above all serve man, not enslave him, or even less destroy him and for all those reasons they must remain at the human level. Are the mediocre means proposed by the Prime Minister likely to cure the evils from which we suffer? They are but puny measures; prices will continue to rise, taxes will take even more away from the people. The evils from which we suffer are the result of the present system where finance is the only thing worth working for.
We do not work for the human being, we do not try to give him what he needs, to make available to him what he requires; for example, we work to increase interests as well as the public debt. When the public debt grows, taxes go up.
The bill now under consideration reflects the wish to see the cost of living go up still further, since pensions will be geared to the cost of living every three months. Taxes of all kinds are crippling the economy and creating inflation. What is crippling the economy is the lack of consumer purchasing power.
Through these various means, Mr. Chairman, the essential purchasing power is taken away from the consumers and given to the makers of dollars, and as a result, interest rates and the public debt go up.
Under those conditions, Mr. Chairman, we must find the abuses and remove them if we really want to solve the problems.
We find, Mr. Chairman, that the problem is not to feed the hungry but to eradicate hunger; it is not to help the oppressed but to abolish oppression; it is not to remove the evils throughout the world, but to cope with them with the proper remedies.
Of course, it is understood that every man's right entails a duty towards society, but who can force the State to fulfil its duties? The State is the power, the strength, the law; it is the law; it has no moral conscience, it is irresponsible, it is its own end and purpose. The State is nothing more than a manifestation of tensions.
That is what I think, Mr. Chairman; that is why we cannot remedy deplorable situations, solve our problems and restore our economic stability.
The man who is hungry has a right to life and food. In the world of law, he can only die; but in fact, he will live, saved by pity, charity; but these cannot constitute in the system anything but a compounding influence, for they only confirm the impotence of the law and its decisions.
Mr. Chairman, when a large number of Canadians live off welfare, live off the workers who sweat and carry the burden of taxes, of public debts, we are discouraging all
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initiative. There are no Canadians with any encouragement left, there are no Canadians, owners of industries or businesses, with any encouragement left. All are discouraged, all are ready to give up. A great number of them are contemplating giving up their business because they can not even earn an adequate living from it.
Because of the burden they must bear, Mr. Chairman, because they have to carry everything, the State, taxes, income taxes, increases in salaries, they are incapable of making ends meet. That is the cause of great bankruptcies these days.
Mr. Chairman, we must therefore take modern businesses out of the false universe of law to make them enter into the living universe of duty and of moral obligation. Order presupposes a law which establishes an end; it also requires means to attain an end.
Here again, in Canada, during the first ten days of August, Mr. Chairman, Her Majesty the Queen of England and the Prime Ministers of 32 countries members of the Commonwealth held a great conference in Ottawa to study major economic problems in relations between great institutions. At no time did anyone deign lower himself to the question of the needs of man, who is the basic unit of all political, economic and social administrations.
Despite the extraordinary growth of our annual production, the national economic disequilibrium is present everywhere under all kinds of forms, for example inflation, unemployment, and poverty affecting all social levels, even the richest.
Faced with the urgent necessity of restoring the economic balance in the life of the nation, each of us tries to make gestures, defensive acts in a hurry and a flurry which are not in keeping with the importance of the corrections that must be made. These corrections would require more calm and mastery to be really efficient, for now and the future.
The regulations or improvements to the regulations which we are now adopting to do some good to one sector of our society-senior citizens-are being adopted much too rapidly. The problem has not been sufficiently studied.
What we give, we give only in driblets, whereas we should give fully and generously to restore the balance of our economy.
I state here, Mr. Chairman, the whole difference between act and thought, between gesture and idea. When we say that thought leads the world, that thought comes before action, that we must think before acting or speaking-because the word equals an act in some circumstances-we recognize explicitly that all that happens in real life is the result of previous thinking which led to action and to a change in our way of life.
Mr. Chairman, if we only see inflation, unemployment and poverty, if all Canadians complain that incomes are too low and taxes too high, I say that an exact knowledge of present economic facts can enable us to realize immediately, for all Canadians, a rise in income or a decrease in taxes. If we do not take time to get information, statistics tell us that in Canada, in 1973, we produce $114 million's worth of goods and services but that only 60 per cent of this production are consumed and 40 per cent capitalized. Consumption merely amounts to $66 billion and capitali-

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Old Age Security
zation of $48 billion, $8 billion of which for individuals and $40 billion for big companies and financial institutions.
Knowing that, Mr. Chairman, we realize it would be easy to transfer $18 billion from capitalization to consumption. Thirty billion would still be left for the liquidity requirements of all companies and for the development projects needed for expansion needs in Canada. With $18 billion added to the citizens' purchasing power the government could reduce by 40 per cent the tax on the workers' income and provide also a guaranteed minimum income to every citizen.
We talk about a guaranteed minimum income, but we do not ask ourselves whether we have sufficient revenues for that. We know we have a $48 billion surplus in 1972-73, but we do not want to talk about it. We do not realize that we could spend up to $15 or $18 billion to provide a guaranteed minimum income to all Canadian citizens, even with a tax reduction. All Canadian citizens would then see an increase in their purchasing power, without any increase in taxes.
A vast economic operation would be needed to restore the economic balance. First of all, we would have to remove the taxes that most contribute to the increase in the cost of living, such as the 11 per cent tax on building materials. But they do not want us to talk about that, they do not want that to be mentioned. We are called to order when we want to mention it, but it is a tax that directly contributes to the rising cost of living. It is a tax that gets us into extreme debts, a tax the Canadian people could do without, for it greatly contributes to the increase in housing. Rates of interest should be reduced, especially those of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, that exploits the citizens, although the government controls it. The Industrial Development Bank exploits industries by lending money at 12 per cent interest, which contributes to the increase in the cost of living and causes debts to all Canadians. But great care is taken to keep silent on this.
Mr. Chairman, these overly heavy taxes are taking unfair advantages of a great many people and are responsible for the increase in the cost of living.
It is the interest on money which tends to increase the cost of living because no one can make both ends meet without borrowing money. All monies are borrowed from the first to the last cent. All monies bear interest and when the latter is very high, nobody has the courage to denounce that kind of exploitation. As far as I am concerned, I have the courage and the nerve to state the situation to the public and even to the whole world because the problem is the same everywhere: the exploitation of man by money.
The decision of the government to escalate pensions on the cost of living index with quarterly adjustments, is only a band-aid which will not cure economic ills because all other areas will face increases. The labour force will have more excuses to go on strike and demand wage increases, the cost of living will continue to rise and the whole economy will suffer more and more.
It is allright to say: We will adjust the pensions according to the cost of living index but if the cost of living goes
[Mr. Latulippe.)
higher and higher, what is the use of basing the pensions on the increase of the cost living?
The causes we should determine are those of the economic ills. We have to uncover them.
To balance our economy, there are only three ways: the financing of our municipalities, school boards and governments according to administrative costs. We must finance stocking at reasonable interest rates, because this interest rate is one of the main causes of the increase in the cost of living. But if the government was willing to take its responsibilities, we could finance all the storage of goods at reasonable interest rates which would not contribute to the increase in the cost of living.
Today still, with the 88 formula of banks to finance storage, we pay a 12 per cent interest rate. This does not make any sense but nobody talks about it. The Prime Minister and the members do not mention it. We are the only ones to talk about it.


Gérald Laniel: Order! I regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time has now expired.


David Orlikow: Mr. Chairman, it is not often that I participate in debates about old age pensions because my colleague the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has been so active in this field. However, I could not let some of the opening remarks made by the minister go by without reply. I consider the minister to be one of the best, if not the best, who has ever held that portfolio in the time that I have been in this House. At the same time I consider him to be a friend. But I must say that I was somewhat disappointed in his partisan praise for the record of the Liberal Party in the field of pensions, and I cannot help but refer to the actual record.
The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre referred to the fact that pensions were first introduced in Canada when his predecessor as member for Winnipeg North Centre, the late J. S. Woodsworth, proposed them in 1925. I want to remind the minister that the then member for Winnipeg North Centre, together with the then member for Winnipeg North, Mr. A. A. Heps, jointly wrote a letter to the leaders of the three political parties at that time, Mr. Mackenzie King of the Liberal Party, Mr. Meighen of the Conservative Party, and Mr. Forke of the Progressive Party, in which they indicated that they would support any of the three leaders if they would bring forth pensions. It was only after this that Mr. King agreed to bring forward the first old age pension plan in this country.
I should like to say a few words now about the comments made by the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe. I am not going to go back over the record of the Conservative Party when it was led by Mr. Bennett or by the right hon. member for Prince Albert, but I do want to refer briefly to the recent federal election campaign. At that time the New Democratic Party was proposing that the old age pension should be increased to $150 per month. The Leader of the Official Opposition not only would not agree to that, but he would not even agree to increase it to $100 a month. The most that the people of Canada could get from the Leader of the Opposition during the election campaign was a
September 5, 1973

promise to increase the old age pension and the guaranteed income supplement to take care of the increase in the cost of living. When the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe speaks about an increase in the old age pension to $400 a month for a couple, I think he should remember what his leader was saying during the election campaign.
Let me now say a few words about the speech made by the hon. member for Sarnia-Lambton in which he was critical of the New Democratic Party provincial governments because they had not raised the rates for welfare or social allowances. I agree with him that the rates for welfare in all provinces should be higher than they are, but in making those remarks he was comparing apples with oranges. We are not here to discuss the rates paid to those people who need assistance in the provinces, though I am prepared to discuss that on another occasion and to agree that the rates are too low in all provinces. I am not very happy about that. We are here to discuss the rates of assistance in the form of old age pensions or guaranteed income supplements or provincial supplements to those people who are 65 years of age or older. The hon. member for Sarnia-Lambton did not put on the record that in the province of British Columbia every single person 65 years of age and over gets a minimum income, guaranteed by the province, of $200 a month. In other words, whatever their income is from other sources, if it is less than $200 the province brings it up to that figure. I think the record should be clear and the hon. member should not have confused it as he did, though perhaps inadvertently.


Jack Sydney George (Bud) Cullen: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I know the hon. member wants to be fair. It was my intention to make reference to that extra $50 and criticize it, because it goes against N.D.P. policy of universality. It seems to me that all the old age pensioners in Canada should be in a similar situation, rather than being better off in one province than in another.


David Orlikow: Mr. Chairman, we are talking about a floor, a minimum. We have never said that everybody should get exactly the same amount. That is ridiculous, Mr. Chairman, and we never suggested it or advocated it. We said that there should be a floor that every person should get. In British Columbia, for people 65 years of age and over it is $200. That is precisely what we are talking about, and I want to say to the hon. member for Sarnia-Lambton that there should be a floor for old age pensioners under the program provided by the federal government which should now be $200 a month. Although I have not talked to the particular minister in charge of this in British Columbia, I believe that if we were to do that the province of British Columbia would supplement that $200 floor.
We are going to support this bill because we support pension increases. This country is wealthier than it has ever been and can afford to let the people who worked so hard to develop it and have now retired have a share in the increased productivity and wealth. We have consistently called for increases but our proposals have equally consistently been opposed by Liberals and Conservatives. We have been told it is too expensive, too visionary, that the country cannot afford it, or that the time is not yet. There is always an excuse.
Old Age Security
During the election campaign we said that the country could afford a $150 pension for senior citizens. We say now that the country can afford a pension of $200 a month for senior citizens. We know this government is not ready to implement that proposal and that a Conservative government would not be ready to do so either. We therefore support this measure to increase the pension and the guaranteed income supplement to at least take care of the increased cost of living on a quarterly basis.
I now want to speak of something that was proposed some time ago. Two or three years ago I proposed that the old age pension and guaranteed income supplement should be adjusted periodically, not after the cost of living had risen but in advance of such rise. I have been critical of accountants who work for the Department of Finance and I am still critical, but I am certain that they have enough ability to estimate approximately by how much living costs will rise in the next three months, six months or next year. I suggest to the minister that he should seriously consider adjusting increases in the old age pension in advance of increases in the cost of living, rather than allowing pensions to lag, as at present. Pensioners at present suffer because pensions lag behind increases in living costs.
I have another criticism. The government is proposing to increase pensions on the basis of the overall increase in the cost of living. Pensioners face two serious problems in dealing with increased living costs. First there is the increase in food costs, an increase which is almost twice as great as the overall increase in living costs. I am not being critical when I say this, as I realize that a very substantial part of that increase has gone to farmers who in recent years have been underpaid for their produce. The increase in food costs has not been in the order of 4 Vi per cent, the amount by which the cost of living increased in the first six months of 1973, but in the neighbourhood of 9 or 10 per cent. So the proposed increase will not help greatly those people who are getting the old age pension or guaranteed income supplement.
The increase in housing costs has been even more substantial than that, and that ought to be taken into consideration. Without taking up too much time, may I suggest that the Minister of National Health and Welfare discuss with the minister in charge of housing ways to provide a dramatic increase in housing accommodation for senior citizens at rents which they can afford. I say this because every time we increase the old age pension private landlords who rent to old age pensioners immediately increase rents by almost the full increase in the pension, so that old age pensioners are left with very little of the increase that Parliament has awarded.
We have proposed that the basic old age pension should be $200 per month for every person who qualifies. I again urge on the government, as other members of the NDP have urged, that the age at which people get the old age pension should be reduced to 60, and that the reduction should take place in the same way as when the age was reduced from 70 to 65. Pensionable age was reduced by one year at a time. In this case it ought to be reduced by one year at a time until older people who qualify can get the pension at age 60. I, like every other member of parlia-

September 5, 1973
Old Age Security
ment, frequently get inquiries from people between 60 and 65 who cannot work. As the hon. member for Sarnia-Lambton said, the rates for welfare, or for social allowances in every province, are a disgrace when you compare those with what we now allow to people who get the old age pension.
Many people cannot work until they are 65. Many women have been left as widows, or have never worked, or cannot work but must, and they find they cannot work beyond age 60. Therefore, I say it is a disgrace that they are allowed a very meagre standard of living until they reach age 65. I urge the government to give serious consideration to announcing that it is prepared to reduce the age at which certain people can get pensions to 60. I hope that will be done in the near future.
Similarly, I urge the government to give serious consideration to amending the Canada Pension Plan so that people who retired voluntarily from the work force between the ages of 60 and 65 are given the full benefits of the Canada Pension Plan.
Lastly I urge the government to look into the matter of private pension plans, so that people who retire, having
contributed for many years to a plan will get a pension that is based on real dollar value, rather than on the number of years that they have contributed to that plan. The pension may have looked good while they were contributing; but those people now find when they retire at age 65 that, in terms of 1973, 1974 or 1975 dollars, it really is not enough for one to live on.
I urge the government to take my suggestions into consideration. They are not radical or revolutionary; they are not things which have not been proposed before. If the government gives consideration to my proposals and brings forward legislation this year, that will be a good beginning but not more than that. Further, these proposals will be met with approval by people in all parts of Canada, regardless of their political affiliation.
[ Transla tion]


Gérald Laniel: The hon. member for Shefford.


Gilbert F. Rondeau: Mr. Chairman, I thank you for recognizing me, but I would point out that it is six o'clock.
[ English]
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Thursday, September 6, 1973