1970-05-13

THE ROYAL ASSENT

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the House that a communication has been received which is as follows:
Government House, Ottawa 13 May 1970
Sir:
I have than honour to inform you that the Hon. Roland Martland, Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate Chamber today. May 13th, at 5.45 p.m. for the purpose of giving Royal Assent to certain Bills.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant, Louis-Fremont Trudeau,
Brigadier General,
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


[Stage Direction]
Third report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts-Mr. Hales.
[Editor's Note: For text of above report, see today's Votes and Proceedings.']

Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table in English and in French copies of a statement that I am releasing today regarding the signing of the protocol and the exchange of letters amending the 1932 trade agrement between New Zealand and Canada. As the House knows, this was signed in New Zealand by our Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of New Zealand.



QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Sallsman: Is the Combines Investigation Branch of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs aware of the charges being laid in the United States by the Federal Trade Commission against the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company of a board range of deceptive advertising, including misrepresentation of the safety of some tires and, if so, what action is contemplated by the Branch regarding similar advertising in Canada by the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minisier of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: Yes. The Combines Investigation Branch of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has examined the advertising material used in advertising tires by the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company of Canada Limited, since September 1969, and has concluded that the material, which is different from that used in the United States, does not afford reason to believe that the Act has been violated so as to warrant formal inquiry.


FARMERS ATTENDING OCCUPATIONAL TRAINING COURSES
Mr. Godin: How many farmers are presently attending occupational training courses in (a) the constituencies of Beauce, Montmorency, Levis, Lotbiniere, Port-neuf and Richelieu (b) in each province?


Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: The following data applies to farmers and farm workers as at January 30, 1970.
Number in
(a) County	Training
Beauce	141
Montmorency	5
Levis	19
Lotbiniere	193
Portneuf	64
Richelieu	19

May 13, 1970
Questions	Number in
Province	Training
Newfoundland	14
Prince Edward Island	201
Nova Scotia	65
New Brunswick	208
Quebec	3,191
Ontario	664
Manitoba	384
Saskatchewan	146
Alberta	59
British Columbia	46


CONTRACTS WITH CONSULTANTS, DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Since the Department of Manpower and Immigration was established, how many consultant firms have been awarded contracts to conduct studies within the Department.
2.	(a) What was the name and address of each consultant firm which has received contracts from the Department of Manpower and Immigration since the Department was established (b) what has been the total payment made to each firm to date?
3.	How many of each consultant's recommendations have been adopted by the Department of Manpower and Immigration to date and what are the names of the firms making the recommendations adopted?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. Five.
2 (a) and (b) Hickling and Johnson Limited, 120 Avenue Road, Toronto, Ontario, $6,115.62; Operations Research Incorporated, Silver Springs, Maryland, U.S.A., $98,658.88 ($46,158.88 paid by Treasury Board, $52,500.00 paid by Manpower and Immigration); Kates, Peat, Marwick and Company, 4 King Street West, Toronto 1, Ontario, $40,020; Operations Research Industries, 151 Slater Street, Ottawa, Ontario, $165,000; Belanger, Ouellette and Associates Inc., 1224 West Ste. Catherine Street, Montreal 25, Quebec, $49,620.
3.	Hickling and Johnson Limited, 19; Operations Research Incorporated, one; Kates, Peat, Marwick and Company. The study provided a strictly statistical report on people who had received Manpower Mobility grants and it tested the feasibility of carrying out a continuing follow-up survey. It was a pilot survey on how to quantify and process the results in a statistical manner; Operations Research

Industries and Belanger, Ouellette, and Associates Inc., the joint study related to the setting up of information systems. A number of information systems have been and are being put in place.


REGIONAL DESKS, PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Have regional desks been established in the Prime Minister's Office?
2.	How many such offices have been established or planned?
3.	Who are the persons in charge of each regional desk, and what additional staff has been assigned to the regional desks?
4.	What are the qualifications of the persons in charge of each regional desk?
5.	What is the annual estimated cost of operating the regional desks?
6.	What are the functions of the regional desks?


Mr. J. E. Walker (Parliamentary Secreiary to Prime Minister):: 1. Yes.
2.	There are four regional desks, all located in Ottawa.
3.	Western desk, David Thomson; Ontario desk, Colin Kenny; Quebec desk, Andre Masse; Maritimes desk, Jean Hache.
The four desk officers are supported by clerical staff.
4.	The selection of each of the regional desk officers was made on the basis of the overall suitability of the individual's professional, academic and personal qualifications in relation to the requirements of the positions.
5.	The annual estimated cost for salaries including secretarial staff, and travel expenses is $98,000.
6.	The functions of the regional desk officers are to improve the liaison between the Prime Minister and those voluntary organizations which concern themselves with issues and problems common to many Canadians; to act as an additional source of information and advice to the Prime Minister on matters upon which he has requested such information and advice; to be of assistance to Members of Parliament in their dealings with the Prime Minister and his office.


INVESTMENT OF CANADIAN COMPANIES IN DEVELOPING NATIONS
Mr. Broadbenl: 1.	Does the government keep a record of amounts of investment made by Canadian companies in
May 13, 1970

developing nations and, if so, what are the names of Canadian companies and the amounts they invested in such countries in the last year for which there are records?
2.	In order of rank, which ten developing countries have received the most Canadian governmental aid in the last year for which there are records?
3.	Of the countries listed in Part 2, how much private Canadian investment has taken place in the same year?


Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: I am informed by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and the Canadian International Development Agency as follows: 1. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics compiles data covering investments made outside Canada by Canadian companies. This material is collected under the Statistics Act and the provision of the detail of companies, countries, and amounts involved is precluded under the confidentiality provisions of that legislation. In many cases Canadian investment in a single country is largely concentrated in one company.
2.	In order of rank the following ten developing countries were allocated the most Canadian governmental aid in Fiscal Year 1968-69, the last year for which final records are available: 1. India, 2. Pakistan, 3. Nigeria, 4. Ghana, 5. Jamaica, 6. Trinidad and Tobago, 7. Ceylon, 8. Guyana, 9. Tunisia, 10. Algeria.
3.	Because of the disclosure problems noted in part 1 of the question, figures of private Canadian investment in the ten top ranking countries for which Canadian Government aid was allocated in 1968/69 are not available on an individual basis (Algeria, Ceylon, Ghana, Guyana, India, Jamaica, Nigeria, Pakistan, Trinidad and Tobago, and Tunisia). In total, book values of Canadian private direct investment in these countries at the end of the years 1965, 1966 and 1967, the latest years for which figures are available amounted to $191 million, $197 million and $223 million respectively. In addition, the book values at the end of 1965, 1966 and 1967 for private Canadian investment in selected individual countries and groupings of all developing countries, whether or not they received aid, are included for information. Changes in the amounts reflect funds supplied to subsidiaries and other controlled companies by Canadian investors as well as undistributed earnings accruing to them.
Questions
1965	1966	1967
(millions of Canadian dollars)
Mexico	24	34	32Bahamas*	72	83	121Bermuda*	30	53	65Other Caribbean	154	164	185South and Central America	190	214	235Africa other than South Africa	40	43	45Asian, Australasian and European Developing Countries	44	48	68Total, All Developing Countries	554	639	751
*Bahamas and Bermuda include some shipping and investment companies which could not be allocated elsewhere.


CNR-STRIKE AT FORT GARRY HOTEL
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many people did CNR bring in to Winnipeg to help operate the Fort Garry Hotel during the recent legal strike at that Hotel?
2.	Of the people brought in, how many were supervisory employees of CNR in other cities and how many were local people?
3.	How much did it cost CNR for transporting these people to and from Wininpeg?
4.	How much did it cost CNR to maintain the people brought in to work at the Fort Garry Hotel during the strike?


Mr. Gerard Loiselle (Parliamentary Secretary io Minister of Transport):: The management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows: In view of the Company's responsibility to its patrons, it took action to provide a limited service during the strike period. Some 22 non-scheduled employees, a majority of whom were supervisory personnel were temporarily transferred to the Fort Garry from other company hotels. As a consequence there was a minimal amount of additional cost incurred by the Company as all of the employees were continued on the payrolls of the hotel from which they had transferred.


SUGAR POWERED BATTERY
Mr. Peters: 1.	Does the government have knowledge of a new type of battery powered by sugar and carbohydrates developed last year by a young Canadian by the name of Richard Keefer?
2.	What assistance is the government supplying to ensure that further development and marketing of this device remains a Canadian product in order to aid humanity and reduce pollution?

May 13, 1970
Questions


Yves Forest: 1. An
application for such a battery is now pending in the Patent Office. It is in the name of Richard Keefer.
2.	Since the device is the property of Mr. Keefer, it is, of course, his prerogative to take whatever steps he may feel advisable in promoting commercial or other use of his invention. Should Mr. Keefer desire assistance in the testing of his invention for pollution control purposes, the Federal Government through an agency like the National Research Council, would be pleased to render whatever services it may be in a position to provide in this regard. No application for assistance has been received nor has any development or industrial assistance been made by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce.


SALE OP CANADIAN MEAT AND MEAT PRODUCTS IN JAPAN
Mr. Souiham: What action is the Canadian Government taking to explore the Japanese market with a view to the sale of Canadian meat and meat products following the agreement between Australia and Japan for the sale of Australian beef?


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce):: There is no agreement between the Governments of Australia and Japan for the sale of Australian beef. Indeed, the Japanese Government imposes quantitative import restrictions on beef imported from Australia as it does from any other country. The fact that the greater part of the Japanese quota for the past fiscal year was filled by Australia was due largely to the price advantage enjoyed by the lower-priced Australian product. So far as Canada is concerned, official representations have been made on a number of occasions, requesting the Japanese authorities to liberalize the importation of this and other Canadian products still subject to quantitative import restrictions when entering Japan, On the promotional side the Canadian Government has been actively exploring the Japanese market for meat and meat products by means of: 1. Sponsorship of a solo food show in Japan in 1969 where Canadian food processors displayed Canadian meat and meat products-. 2. Sponsorship of a beef cutting demonstration in Japan late in 1968 where the high quality of Canadian beef was

stressed. 3. Sponsorship of a meat mission in 1969 from Japan where the high quality of Canadian meats was demonstrated to Japanese processors, wholesalers, importers and Government officials. 4. A planned Canadian meat quality demonstration in Japan in October 1970 to emphasize the high quality of Canadian meat and meat products. 5. A planned solo food show in Japan late this year or early next year at which Canadian meat products are expected to be prominently featured.
COMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT____


ENGAGEMENT OF CONSULTANTS
Mr. Robinson: How many consultants have been engaged by the Communications Department since its establishment (a) what was the cost of the consultants (b) how were the consultants utilized (c) for what reasons were the consultants necessary?


Hon. Eric W. Kierans (Postmaster General and Minister of Communications):: Thirty four consultants, (a) $290,000. (b) Utilization for special studies in the field of research and special areas in communications on behalf of the Telecommission, (c) In order to provide a range of specialized expertise unavailable within the Department.


COST OF &quot;MANHATTAN&quot; VOYAGES
Mr. Yewchuk: 1.	Did the 1969 voyage of the Manhattan through the Northwest Passage cost the federal government any money and, If so, how much?
2.	How much money will the upcoming voyage of the Manhattan through Canada's Arctic waters cost the federal government?


Gérard Loiselle: 1. Costs that are clearly identifiable as related to the Manhattan operation amount to approximately $23,700. These comprise consultants fees, salaries, travelling expenses, rental of equipment and expenses concerned with press representation. The CCGS John A. Macdonald would have been employed in Arctic waters for approximately the same time even if she had not accompanied the Manhattan and there is no realistic way of determining what extra costs were incurred in the Manhattan operation. If any, they were offset by a certain amount of fuel supplied at no cost by the Manhattan. An increased programme of aerial observation of ice conditions was carried out over that normally undertaken. The Man-
May 13, 1970

hattan benefitted considerably from this but it was also of very great value in increasing *our own knowledge of Arctic ice conditions and this was largely due to the loan of specialized electronic sensing devices not possessed by the Department at no cost by the Humble Oil Company. Here too there is no way of finding a realistic apportionment of cost.
2.	A spring voyage by the CCGS Louis S. St. Laurent into northern waters to test the capabilities of this new vessel had been scheduled before the request for Canadian icebreaker support to the Manhattan was received, and the two are being combined. What additional cost, if any, will be incurred on the present voyage cannot be estimated until it is known how long it lasts.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY
Mr. Korchinski: 1.	What was the total cost of constructing the St. Lawrence Seaway?
2.	What are the costs involved in financing the entire project?
3.	On what date were toll charges introduced and, at what rate?
4.	How many ships have used the Seaway since the introduction of toll charges?
5.	What amount of tolls has been collected since their introduction?
6.	What is the estimated amount which will be collected in the present year?


Gérard Loiselle: The St. Lawrence Seaway Authority advises as follows:
1.	As of December 31, 1969, the cost to The St. Lawrence Seaway Authority, including interest during construction, of construction
of the St. Lawrence Seaway has			been as
follows:	(millions $) To	1960-	Total to31:12:69	1969	31:12:69Montreal-Lake Ontario Section	$285.0	$48.9	$333.9Welland Canal	25.7	72.7	98.4Welland By-pass	-	51.2	51.2$310.7	$172.8	$483.52.	The construction costs above have been financed by loans bearing an average interest rate of 3.8 per cent. Since 1959 total interest charges to operations have amounted to $171.4 million of which $67.4 million was outstanding at 31st December 1969.
Questions
3.	Montreal-Lake	Welland
Ontario Section Canal Tolls introduced April 1959 April 1959 Rates (per ton)
Bulk cargo	400	20General cargo Gross Registered	900	50Tonnage	40	20Tolls suspended Lockage charge	-	July 1962introduced Rate of Welland Canal lockage charge (per lock)	April 19671967	-	$ 201968	-	$ 401969	-	$ 601970	-	$ 801971	-	$1004. Number of transits,	1959-69	79,073	85,3675. Tolls/lockage charge	revenue, 1959-69	$138.4	$9.86. Estimated tolls/ lockage charge	million	millionrevenue, 1970	$ 18.6	$3.4million	million


DEVELOPMENT OF ELECTRIC-POWERED AUTOMOBILE-INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE POLLUTION
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg: North Centre):
1.	Are any agencies of the federal government doing research on the development of an electric-powered automobile as a replacement for vehicles powered by internal combustion engines and, if so, which agencies, and how much money is being spent thereon?
2.	Is the government aware of private research in the same field and, if so, is information based thereon available for tabling in Parliament?
3.	Is consideration being given to legislation prohibiting motor vehicles powered by internal combustion engines and, if so, by what year is it planned to effect such prohibition?
4.	Does the government have any other plans for coping with the pollution caused by motor vehicles powered by internal combustion engines and, if so, what are such plans and is information thereon available for tabling in Parliament?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Departments of Transport and National Health and Welfare as follows: 1. No.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	The new Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Bill C-137) provides authority by which the Fed-

May 13, 1970
Questions
eral Government may regulate motor vehicle exhaust emissions for the purpose of protecting persons against impairment of health. The Federal Government, through the Department of National Health and Welfare and other agencies has been studying the entire air pollution problem in Canada. The Government intends to include in the initial regulations under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act standards limiting motor vehicle exhaust emissions. These standards should be promulgated during the summer of 1970 and thus applicable to 1971 model year vehicles. It should be noted that in the meantime, Canadian motor vehicle manufacturers are voluntarily complying with the motor vehicle exhaust emission limits applicable in the U.S. Officers of the Department of National Health and Welfare are currently working with officials of the Department of Transport with a view to developing regulations to control pollution from motor vehicles as authorized under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act now before Parliament. When these regulations become law, and it is hoped that they will go into effect in time for the 1971 model year, they will be published in the Canada Gazette in line with the normal procedure.


NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD-TENDERS
Mr. Prud'homme: 1 Have tenders been recently called by the National Harbours Board in connection with restaurant concessions in the Montreal Harbour area and, if so (a) have tenders been received (b) from whom, and what was the amount of each tender?
2.	What are the names and addresses of those awarded such concessions and the respective amounts of their tenders?


Gérard Loiselle: National Harbours Board advise as follows: 1. (a) Tenders were called for concessions of Restaurants 1 to 11 inclusive except No. 5. It was awarded at the beginning of 1969 and the term will not expire until 1974.
Restaurant No.	Name	Amount1	Lionel Gladu	$5,100.001	Jean Pierre Chorel	1,266.662	Marcel Lapierre	4,200.002	Laurier Cardinal	2,160.002	Jean Pierre Chorel	840.003	R. M. Papineau	3,660.003	Jean Pierre Chorel	1,266.664	Pierre Papineau	4,200.004	Yvette Dupuis Soumis	4,104.004	Maria Martinangeli	3,120.004	Jean Pierre Chorel	1,266.666	Yvette Dupuis Soumis	3,510.006	Maria Martinangeli	2,760.006	Louisette Campagna	2,500.006	Jean Pierre Chorel	1,266.667	Lionel Gladu	4,560.007	Maria Martinangeli	4,261.507	Jean Pierre Chorel	4,020.007	Yvon Pronovost	3,000.00 (or better)7	Rita Larin	2,505.008	Yvette Dupuis Soumis	6,552.008	Rita Larin	3,505.008	Maria Martinangeli	3,120.009	Jean Pierre Chorel	1,266.0010	Normand Gladu	5,568.0010	Yvon Pronovost	4,000.00 (or better)10	Gaston Marier	3,550.0010	Maria Martinangeli	2,760.0011	Roger Soumis	8,010.0011	Charles Leduc	6,600.0011	Jean Pierre Chorel	2,448.0011	Antonio Goudreau	2,040.00May 13, 1970	COMMONS DEBATES	Questions	69032. Name	Addresses	Amount	No.Lionel Gladu	1167 Vercheres St., Longueuil, Que.	$5,100.00	1Marcel Lapierre	2022 Montcalm St., Montreal, Que.	4,200.00	2R. M. Papineau	240 Lake Shore Drive, Dorval, Que.	3,660.00	3Pierre Papineau	2049 Harvard St., Montreal, Que.	4,200.00	4Yvette Dupuis Soumis	3280 Liebert St., Montreal, Que.	3,510.00	6Lionel Gladu	1167 Vercheres St., Longueuil, Que.	4,560.00	7Yvette Dupuis Soumis	3280 Liebert St., Montreal, Que.	6,552.00	8Jean Pierre Chorel	7236 Denormanville St., Montreal, Que.	1,266.66	9Normand Gladu	1610 Delorimier St., Longueuil, Que.	5,568.00	10Roger Soumis	3220 Hays St.,	8,010.00	11
Montreal, Que.


AMOUNT OF GRAIN SHIPPED FROM ELEVATORS
Mr. Mazankowski: How many bushels of grain have been shipped from each respective elevator, referred to in answer to Question Number 891, during the crop years 1965-66, 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69?


Hon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture):: The Board of Grain Commissioners advise as follows: Information with regard to shipments from individual country elevators is supplied to the Board on a confidential basis and is considered to be privileged.


MEDICARE-COST TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF SCHEME IN ALBERTA
Mr. Yewchuk: How much money has the Medicare scheme in Alberta cost the federal government to date?


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: The federal advances to the province of Alberta, under the Medical Care Program for the period July 1, 1969 to April 16, 1970, amount to $24,370,800.


GRAIN ELEVATOR OWNERSHIP
Mr. Mazankowski: How many of the elevators are owned by each of the companies referred to in the answers to Question Number 891 for the respective provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Alberta: Alberta Wheat Pool, four; Federal Grain Limited, 40; National Grain Ltd., five; Parrish & Heimbecker Ltd., four; Pioneer Grain Company Ltd., one; United Grain Growers Ltd., 17. Saskatchewan:	Federal
Grain Limited, 25; National Grain Ltd., five; Parrish & Heimbecker Ltd., one; N. M. Paterson & Sons Ltd., one; Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, 62; United Grain Growers Ltd., five. Manitoba: Federal Grain Limited, two; Manitoba Pool Elevators, four; National Grain Ltd., two; N. M. Paterson & Sons Ltd., one; United Grain Growers Ltd., four.


PAVING OF ALCAN AND MACKENZIE HIGHWAY
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Will any asphalt paving be undertaken on the Alcan Highway in the Yukon Territory in the fiscal year 1970-71 and, if so (a) how many miles are involved (b) at what cost?
2.	Will any asphalt paving be undertaken on the MacKenzie Highway in the Northwest Territories in the fiscal year 1970-71 and, if so (a) how many miles are involved (b) at what cost?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Department of Public Works and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as follows: 1. Yes. (a) Approximately 25 miles of base course and paving in the Whitehorse area, (b) $1,197,870.
2. No.

May 13. 1970
Questions


SUMMER EMPLOYMENT FOR STUDENTS
Mr. Nysirom: 1.	What is the number of university and college students expected to be seeking temporary employment this summer?
2.	How do these figures compare with those of the summer of 1969?
3.	What is the number of secondary school students expected to be seeking temporary employment this summer and how does this compare with the summer of 1969?
4.	What was the number of students, both university and secondary school, who were unable to locate employment in the summer of 1969?
5.	What programs are being undertaken this year to assist these students to find employment?
6.	(a) What was the number of temporary summer workers admitted to Canada from other countries during the summer of 1969 (b) what is the breakdown by country (c) what is the number of temporary summer workers expected to be admitted from other countries this summer and what is the breakdown by countries (d) what was the number of Canadian seasonal workers employed in other countries during the summer of 1969 (e) what is the number of Canadian seasonal workers expected to be employed in other countries during the summer of 1970?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. It is estimated that of the students who will be attending universities and colleges in the fall, 385,000 will be seeking temporary employment this summer.
2.	This figure represents an increase of 35,000 over the summer of 1969.
3.	It is expected that of the students who will be entering secondary institutions in grade 10 and above in the fall, 255,000 will be seeking employment this summer, an increase of 23,000 over the summer of 1969.
4.	It is estimated that 25,000 students at the post-secondary level were unable to locate employment in the summer of 1969. Information is not available on the number of secondary school students who were unable to locate employment in the summer of 1969.
5.	The Department of Manpower and Immigration is engaged in an intensive program to assist students to find summer employment. This program includes a national and local advertising campaign to encourage the hiring of students. Public awareness and involvement is being encouraged by promotion of and participation in student summer employment committees at the national, regional and local levels for which a sum of $260,000.00 has been allocated. Canada Manpower Centres across Canada are providing an employment service to students as well as consultative assistance to those students developing self-help or entrepreneurial activities. For this purpose,

376 student counsellors are being hired to assist permanent Canada Manpower Centre staff. In addition, the Department of Manpower and Immigration is actively supporting the Canadian Chamber of Commerce program "Operation Placement" which is encouraging the 125,000 members of the CCC across Canada to provide productive summer employment for students to the extent of 5 per cent of their total manpower force and to stimulate similar community participation. Federal government departments and agencies will provide over 12,000 temporary employment opportunities for students this summer.
6.	(a) 4,854; (b) Austria, 76; United Kingdom, 1,044; Denmark, 3; Germany, 101; Sweden, 2; Jamaica, 747; Barbados, 326; Trinidad & Tobago, 376; U.S.A., 962; Belgium, 348; France, 459; Greece, 1; Netherlands, 3; Switzerland, 2; Israel, 1; Not listed, 403*.
*Breakdown by countries in respect to this group is not available. Two hundred and sixty-three workers came from Europe under the International Agricultural Exchange Program and 140, mainly from Europe, under reciprocal agreement with the International Association for Students of Economics and Commerce (IASEC).
(c)	It is expected that 4,889 temporary summer workers from other countries will be admitted to Canada this summer. Austria, 78; Australia, 10; Denmark, 90; United Kingdom, 1,040; France, 460; Germany, 132; New Zealand, 65; Norway, 15; Sweden, 25; Jamaica, 747; Barbados, 326; Trinidad and Tobago, 376; U.S.A., 962; Belgium, 348; Netherlands, 75; Not listed, 140*.
*This group of 140 workers will be admitted under reciprocal agreement with the International Association for Students of Economics and Commerce. The majority of these workers will be coming from Europe, but breakdown by countries is not yet available.
(d)	Canadians can, of course, leave Canada, as they wish, to take employment abroad or for any other purpose. Therefore, no overall statistics on the activities of seasonal workers employed in other countries are available. However, it is known that, under formal agreements, 2,047 Canadian workers took employment in other countries during the summer of 1969.
(e)	Overall statistics not available, as stated above. Under formal agreements, it is expected that approximately 2,050 Canadian seasonal workers will be employed in other countries during the summer of 1970.
May 13, 1970


PROGRAM TO LOCATE EMPLOYMENT FOR OLDER WORKERS
Mr. Nyslrom: 1.	What is the number of people who have received assistance in locating employment under the program for locating employment for older workers of the Department of Manpower and Immigration since its inception?
2.	How many of these people have succeeded in locating employment as a result of this program?
3 Has any follow-up study been made on these people and, if so, what is the percentage of these people still employed one year after finding employment?
4.What were the costs to the Department of this program for each year since it has been in operation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. The Department has no specific program for locating employment for older workers. All job-seeking clients regardless of age, are given service at Canada Manpower Centres in accordance with their individual needs. There is no segregation of clients and therefore no figures are available for specific groups. A continuing educational program designed to discourage age discrimination in employment has been carried on by the Federal Government for approximately twenty years. In the government departmental re-organization of January 1966, the Civilian Rehabilitation Branch of the Canada Department of Labour which conducted this program was transferred to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and finally to this Department which has continued this function.
2.	There is no way of determining how many workers have succeeded in locating employment, either directly or indirectly, as a result of these educational efforts.
3.	No.
4.	The educational program has been carried on as part of a larger program and separate cost figures have not been maintained. However, it is estimated that salaries, costs of printing and mailing since January 1, 1966 would average approximately $23,000 per year.


OPERATION RETRIEVAL PROGRAM ASSISTANCE
Mr. Nystrom: 1.	What is the number of people who have received assistance in locating employment under the operation retrieval program of the Department of Manpower and Immigration since its inception?
2.	How many of these people have succeeded in locating employment as a result of this program?
Questions
3.	Has any follow-up study been made on these people and, if so, what is the percentage of these people still employed one year after finding employment?
4.	What were the costs to the Department of this program for each year since it has been in operation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. Since 1967 when the Department of Manpower and Immigration assumed responsibility for the Operation Retrieval Program, students have received assistance in locating employment in Canada as follows: 1967-68, 979; 1968-69, 1,332; 196970, 2,696 (to April 27, 1970).
2.	Students and employers are under no obligation to report to the Department whether a job materializes as a result of their participation in the program. However, a survey was carried out in 1968 of the students who participated in the 1967-68 program. Six hundred and four students who completed and returned the questionnaire reported that they had received 749 enquiries and 244 job offers from employers.
3.	No follow-up has been made of this group since the survey carried out in 1968.
4.	Costs to the Department of this program for each year since 1967 are the following: 1967-68, $71,260; 1968-69, $125,700; 1969-70, $100,000.


IMMIGRANT SETTLEMENT PROGRAM ASSISTANCE
Mr. Nyslrom: 1 What is the number of people who have received assistance in locating employment under the Immigrant Settlement Program of the Department of Manpower and Immigration since its inception?
2.	For what percentage of these people was the Department successful in locating employment?
3.	Has any follow-up study been made on these people and, if so, what is the percentage of these people still employed one year after finding employment?
4.	What were the costs to the Department of this program for each year that it has been in operation?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1 and 2. The Department of Manpower and Immigration, through its Canada Manpower Centres, does not differentiate between newly arrived immigrant clients and Canadian citizen clients insofar as maintaining statistics on the placement in employment is concerned. It is therefore not possible to provide an answer to these questions.
3. The Department is currently undertaking a major follow up survey of immigrants dur-

May 13, 1970
Questions
ing their first three years in Canada called "The Longitudinal Study of the Economic and Social Adaptation of Immigrants". The objective of the study is to provide guidance for immigration policy and programs. It concentrates on the employment situation of new immigrants, their occupational and geographic mobility, earnings, level of satisfaction, attitudes and acceptance in the Canadian community. In 1969 a cohort of 7,000 immigrant workers was selected, followed by the selection of cohorts of similar size in 1970 and 1971. In order to enable comparisons, a control group of 5,000 Canadians has been selected and is being surveyed. Statistical data on the first results of the Study are not yet available.
4.	For the reasons mentioned in paragraph 1 above, it is not possible to provide information concerning the general cost to the Department of assisting immigrants to secure employment. However, since the Department commenced operations on October 1, 1966, the following sums of money have been expended on newly arrived immigrants from the Adjustment Assistance Fund:
Fiscal	Adjustment
Year	Assistance
1966-67	$1,135,036
1967-68	$2,613,720
1968-69	$1,660,335
1969-70	$1,118,688


PERSONNEL OF PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE
Mr. Coates: Has the Prime Minister's staff been increased in strength since the answer to Question Number 1,210 was provided and, if so, what are (a) the names of the additional persons taken on strength (b) the duties of the person or persons (c) the amount each receives in salary?


James Edgar Walker: The strength has increased by five employees (positions were vacant at the time of answer to question 1,210).
(a), (b) and (c):
Name
Miss L. Lascelles Miss D. Landry Mrs. R. Lippett Miss S. Miller Mrs. L. Barbeau
Classification Salary Scale ST 4	$5,000 -	7,500ST 3	2,500 -	5,000CR4 5,000-7,500 CR 3	5,000 -	7,500ST 4	5,000 -	7,500
In addition four of the employees listed in answer No. 1,210 ceased employment and were replaced.
[Mr. MacEachen.l


GRANTS TO TOBACCO GROWERS
Mr. Mather: 1.	Are Ontario tobacco growers receiving a subsidy grant or other aid, including Department of Agriculture assistance or advice in crop production, curing and distribution?
2.	Have studies been made, or are they being considered, to encourage tobacco growers to produce another crop less hazardous to human health?
3.	Is any subsidy, grant, or other aid, including Department of Agriculture assistance or advice in crop production, curing and distribution being given to tobacco producers in any Maritime area?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: 1. No direct subsidies are provided by the Department of Agriculture to Ontario tobacco growers. Our research program on tobacco production provides information that assists producers in overcoming production problems.
2.	The overall program of the Department of Agriculture provides information on the production of all important crops. The selection of crops to be produced is determined by growers on the basis of information available to them from all sources, including information on relative economic returns.
3.	No direct subsidies are provided by the Department of Agriculture to tobacco producers in any Maritime area. A limited research program in P.E.I. provides information that assists Maritime producers in overcoming production problems.


CANADA PENSION PLAN-LOANS TO PROVINCES
Mr. Burton: 1.	From the inception of the Canada Pension Plan to March 31, 1970, what amount of money has been made available for loans to provinces?
2.	Of the above total, what amount has been borrowed by the provinces?


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of Finance):: 1. The Canada Pension Plan made available, from inception to March 31, 1970, $2,818,079,000 for the purchase of securities of the provinces.
2. Of the amount made available to the provinces $2,817,360,000 has been borrowed by the provinces or their crown agencies guaranteed by the province.


USE OF LUXURY AUTOMOBILES BY CANADIAN DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS
Mr. McCutcheon: 1. (a) How many luxury automobiles, e.g. Cadillac, Imperial, Rolls Royce and Lincoln Continental, do our missions abroad use (b) where are they located?
May 13, 1970

2. Does our High Commissioner in London, England, use a Lincoln Continental and, if so, what was the laid down price of the special order?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1. (a) 10. (b) Cadillac Limousine: Bonn, New Delhi, New York (Permanent Mission to United Nations), New York (Consulate General), Paris (Embassy), Rome (Embassy). Lincoln Continental Limousine: London, Moscow, Tokyo, Washington.
2. Yes. $9,256.53 (Canadian Funds) delivered June 1968.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Since January 1, 1963, has Verreault Navigation Inc. tendered bids on any dredging or other projects of the government or any agency or department thereof and, if so, what was the nature of each such project, the amount bid, the name, address and amount bid by the successful bidder?
2.	With respect to those projects net awarded to Verreault Navigation, what was the reason for not making the award to the said company in each case?
3 With respect to those projects awarded to Verreault Navigation, which ones, if any, were unable to be completed within the terms of contract and what are the details about each such inability?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE-RESEARCH STUDIES
Mr. Robinson: 1. What research studies have been carried out by, or on behalf of, the Department of National Defence during each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive?
2 What research studies are presently being carried on and/or are contemplated during the next five years?
3.	What was the cost of each of the research studies completed in each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive?
4.	What is the estimated cost of each of the studies presently in being or contemplated during the next five years?
Return tabled.


CONTRACTS AWARDED TO HALIFAX SHIPYARDS 1963-64
Mr. McCleave: By fiscal year, since 1963-64, what contracts have been awarded to Halifax Shipyards and its Dartmouth marine slip?
Return tabled.
22375-19J
Motions for Papers ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY

Question No. 1,604-Mr. Coates:
1.	What was the total cost of constructing the St. Lawrence Seaway?
2.	Of the total cost, how much was amortized, over what period of time, at what interest rate, and of that amount how much has been retired to this date?
3.	If all payments have not been met as stipulated under the original arrangement, what alterations in repayment have been made since the initial arrangement?
4.	What has been the annual income to the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority from tolls charged since the opening of the Seaway and in each year, what has been the total cost of operating the seaway?
5.	Has work been initiated on twinning the locks of the Welland Canal and, if so, what has been the cost of this work to date and what will be the estimated final cost of this project and what will be the completion date?
Return tabled.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions (papers) Nos. 441 and 453 are acceptable to the government.



PROVINCIAL BRIEFS ON POLLUTION CONTROL

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 441-Mr. Harding:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all briefs submitted by the provincial governments at the recent federal-provincial conference in Ottawa regarding the subject of pollution control in Canada.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 453-Mr. Gilbert:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, etc., between the Minister of Manpower and Immigration and the Government of Ontario regarding the closing of the Dunlop tire plant in Toronto.
Motion agreed to.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions Nos. 407, 413, 420, 430, 433, 434, 435, 436 and 439 are acceptable to the government, subject

May 13, 1970
Motions for Papers
to the usual reservations concerning privileged papers and authorization of the government authorities concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations and conditions expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that Notices of Motions Nos. 407, 413, 420, 430, 433, 434, 435, 436 and 439 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



BOARDING PROGRAMS FOR INDIANS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 407-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of all documents, reports or other studies since January 1, 1967 relating to boarding programs for Indians and particularly, for a so-called Snider Report with respect to such programs.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 413-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by G. Birch regarding a feasibility study re canoe building and related wood products industry, undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 24 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 420-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by C. W. Pool and Associates Limited regarding the examination of the potential and planning the development of recreation resource of Reserve with full involvement of Indian people undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 21 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 430-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by Resources Management Consultants regarding a feasibility study re snow-shoe manufacturing undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 19 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.
'.[Mr. Forest.)

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 433-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by management consultants regarding the TED report-its implications for Manitoba Indian people undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 17 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 434-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by P. S. Ross & Partners regarding a consolidated resource development plan for Indian reserves in Manitoba undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 17 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 435-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by Frank E. Price & Associates regarding resource inventory undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 17 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 436-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant study by Hedlin, Menzies & Associates Limited regarding resource inventory undertaken for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development as mentioned in answer to Question Number 584 at page 17 of the Return.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 439-Mr. Burton:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the minutes or any other reports prepared subsequent to meetings between the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development officials and Bands served by the Touchwood Agency with respect to the proposed amalgamation of the Touchwood Agency and the File Hills-Qu'Appelle Agency, and a copy of all correspondence, resolutions and other documents exchanged between the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Devel-
May 13, 1970
[Stage Direction]
opment and individuals or Bands served by the Touchwood Agency with respect to the proposed amalgamation.
Motion agreed to.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call notices of motions Nos. 376, 378, 387, 440, 442, 447 and 448?
I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining notices of motions be allowed to stand.



CORRESPONDENCE ON CANADA-U.S. DRAFT AGREEMENT ON FISHING PRIVILEGES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 376-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the government or any agency or department thereof and the Government of the United States of America or any agency or department thereof relating to the draft agreement on reciprocal fishing privileges as mentioned in a news release from the Department of Fisheries and Forestry dated February 16, 1970.
Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, it will be noticed that this motion calls for production of correspondence, telegrams and other documents relating to what was then a draft agreement on reciprocal fishing privileges mentioned in a news release from the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. Subsequently I tabled in the House a copy of the agreement itself as signed by the two governments. I am not sure whether there is any correspond^ ence and telegrams relating to this matter between the two governments. If there were I would consider that they should not be produced for the reasons I have often stated in the House. Therefore I hope the hon. member will agree to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, that is all the more reason why they should be produced, if the minister is not sure that any exist. If he does not know what is going on in his department, who does?


Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.



WHEAT BOARD REGULATIONS-CORRESPONDENCE WITH PROVINCIAL ATTORNEYS GENERAL

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 378-Mr. Soulham:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid
Motions for Papers
before this House copies of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Attorney Generals of the Provinces of Saskatchewan. Alberta, Manitoba and British Columbia, concerning the application and enforcement of the Regulations of the Canadian Wheat Board, between December 1, 1969 and January 31, 1970.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister without Portfolio responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board wishes to inform the hon. member that he is willing to table correspondence exchanged between himself and the Attorneys General of Alberta and Manitoba. There is, however, no correspondence exchanged between the Minister without Portfolio and the Attorney General of British Columbia. Moreover, the Attorney General of Saskatchewan has not consented to the tabling of his correspondence with the minister, and in view of this the minister would wish to accede to this request and not table any of the exchange between himself and the Attorney General of Saskatchewan. If the hon. member is willing to accept this reservation, the minister would table the correspondence just indicated.


Mr. Soulham:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations and conditions expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that Notice of Motion No. 378 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 387-Mr. MacDonald (Egmoni):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of all correspondence with and reports to the Prime Minister, Secretary of State of External Affairs and the Canadian International Development Agency from Mrs. Clair Culhane and Dr. Alje Venemma with respect to their observations concerning Canada's involvement in foreign aid to Vietnam, possible misuse of Canadian aid and reported atrocities.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, reports to the Canadian International Development Agency by experts serving abroad under Canadian aid programs and correspondence relating to their assignments are treated as confidential. Making such reports public would breach this confidence and inhibit CIDA experts from expressing

May 13, 1970
Motions for Papers
their views frankly in future. Therefore, I would hope the hon. member would agree to withdraw the motion.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, in view of the importance of this matter and since some of these documents have already been made public, I should like to have the motion transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.



REPORT ON UNITED STATES INTERNAL FOOD AID PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 440-Mrs. Maclnnis:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the report undertaken in the Department of Agriculture on the United States Internal Food-Aid Program and its applications to Canada.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, I am informed by the Minister of Agriculture that no formal report has ever been made by the Department of Agriculture on the United States internal food-aid program and its application to Canada. An analysis of the program referred to was made for departmental use and is considered to be confidential. I would therefore respectfully ask the hon. member to withdraw her motion.


Mrs. Maclnnis:: Mr. Speaker, in view of the importance of this matter I wish the motion to be transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Notice of Motion No. 440 is transferred for debate.



REPORT ON PESTICIDES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 442-Mr. Gleave:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the February 5th Report by the Interdepartmental Committee on Pesticides mentioned by the Minister of Agriculture in Hansard of April 21 at page 6105.
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I move the motion on behalf of the hon. member.


Yves Forest: I am
informed by the Minister of Agriculture that this is a report from an inter-departmental committee to the minister and is considered to be a privileged document. I would therefore respectfully ask the hon. member to withdraw his motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Question!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is transferred for debate.



STUDY OF SMALL BUSINESS IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 447-Mr. Saltsman:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the study undertaken in the Department of Finance on Small Business in Canada as stated by the Minister of Finance and reported in Hansard of April 22, 1970 at pages 6160-61.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I move the motion on behalf of the hon. member.


Hon. Herb Gray (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, the study referred to in this Notice of Motion for the Production of Papers has not been completed. On page 6161 of Hansard the Minister of Finance affirmed that the results of the study would be made known to the parliamentary committee examining the white paper on tax reform. In view of this I hope the hon. member will consider withdrawing his motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to withdraw the motion on behalf of the hon. member, subject to his right to reinstate it if he is not satisfied.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



REPORT ON AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE RATE INCREASES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 448-Mr. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the report on the automobile insurance rate increases as stated by the Minister of Finance and reported in Hansard of April 22, 1970 at page 6165.
Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands has had discussions with the Minister of Finance with regard to Motion No. 448 and I believe he is agreeable to withdrawing it. Perhaps he could confirm if that understanding is correct.


Mr. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have the necessary information and will be glad to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped.
May 13, 1970

Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the remaining motions stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister in order to give him an opportunity to eliminate some of the confusion that he has perhaps created with regard to the government's housing policy during the last few days. Is it now proper to assume that the government's target for housing starts this year is between 160,000 and 170,000 units?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. May I ask the Acting Prime Minister what the government's target is for housing starts this year?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, my recollection is that the government's target is one million houses over a five-year period.


Mr. Hees:: Come off it!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister, then, if it is fair to assume that the government has in fact no target for housing starts in 1970?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The question is asked in argumentative terms and I would not think it is acceptable.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, may I rephrase my question so as to avoid any suggestion of arguing with the Acting Prime Minister. Has the government in fact any target for housing starts in 1970?


Mitchell William Sharp: Yes, Mr. Speaker. An endeavour is being made to get as many houses as possible built this year.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mitchell William Sharp: As I said, our general target, and I believe it is much more sensible to have a long-range target, is the building of one million houses over a five-year period. I think we will accomplish this goal.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Robert Lorne Stanfield: A further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the statement made yesterday by the Acting Prime Minister that the number of housing starts depends on many other factors in addition to the availability of money. Did the Acting Prime Minister have in mind that the rate of unemployment might be so high this year that the demand for housing would fall below the target?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, what I had in mind is that the best way of attaining an acceptable goal in housing is through the government continuing to restrain inflationary pressures.



DECREASE IN STARTS-GREATER INVESTMENT BY FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

Mr. John Gilbert (Broadview):: In view of the serious decline in housing starts in the first quarter of this year, is it the intention of the government to call together the financial institutions to encourage them to invest more money in housing? Also what other steps will the government take to stimulate housing starts?


Mitchell William Sharp: I regret that the minister responsible for housing is not in the House, and I hesitate to speak on his behalf on this occasion. I know that he has the housing situation under continuous scrutiny, as does Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. If it would be useful to call the financial institutions together, the minister will do so.



ESTABLISHMENT OF SEPARATE DEPARTMENT

Mr. Lome Nyslrom (Yorklon-Melville):: In
view of the problems in housing and urban affairs, is it the intention of the government to consider the establishment of a separate department of housing and urban affairs?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker. There is, of course, a minister who is responsible for reporting to the House on housing.



LABOUR RELATIONS


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Last week I drew to the attention of the government the fact that

May 13, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry the Canadian Merchant Service Guild was accusing the Department of Transport of strikebreaking because it was issuing special permits to unqualified persons to operate the Haida Transporter. The department subsequently cancelled the permits but I am informed they have now been reissued. Have they been reissued and, if so, are the persons to whom they have been issued properly qualified to operate coastal vessels?


Hon. Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Transport):: This is a very complex question, Mr. Speaker. I will do my best to answer it within the time I am allowed.
Under normal circumstances there is provision in the regulations for the issuing of certificates to certain, in the strict sense of the word, unqualified persons. In the case of the west coast, the number of these in any one year rarely exceeds seven or eight. This particular case falls well within the normal requirements and consequently we have issued the permits on that basis. I wish to say, however, that if there were to be any demonstrable or unusual increase in the number of requests, bearing in mind there are rarely more than seven or eight in one year we would look very closely and carefully before moving in that direction.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I ask the minister to look into the fact that the crew of the Haida Transporter are covered by the collective bargaining which is now in dispute and that the Canadian Merchant Service Guild considers that the issuing of these special permits to enable the ship to sail constitutes strikebreaking. Has the minister taken this into consideration in making his decision to reissue these permits?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have taken it into consideration. It is a very difficult matter to decide. The primary responsibility of the Department of Transport is for safety and ship manning. The issue here is whether or not we should change established regulations because of a labour dispute in that particular area. I have emphasized that should this become an inordinately large practice or effort by the ship owners, we would certainly look at it much more closely. I must emphasize that to my knowledge the present instance is the only one where permits have been issued, and the norm against which we would judge this is the total of seven or eight permits we normally grant in any one year. In short, I do not anticipate any mass applications of this kind.



TAXATION


Mr. Real Caouette (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.
In view of the very great number of serious complaints we receive about the white paper on taxation, would the minister consider withdrawing that document and replacing it by a white paper on the distribution of a national dividend to each Canadian?


Edgar John Benson: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



WHITE PAPER ON REFORM-PROFITSHARING PLANS

Mr. Georges Valade (Sainle-Marie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.
Since taxpayers belonging to profit-sharing plans will be affected by a 165 per cent tax increase at retirement, and since they are concerned by this white paper proposal, will the Minister of Finance reconsider-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This question has already been asked and the minister has replied.


Georges-J. Valade: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Sainte-Marie on a point of order.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question was in connection with the one asked by the member for Temiscamingue and since his question has been-


Mr. Speaker:: The question asked by the hon. member is exactly the same as the one asked a few days ago and to which the minister has given an answer.



INDUSTRY


Mr. Lincoln M. Alexander (Hamilton West):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio responsible for the
May 13, 1970

application of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. It has to do with unemployment. In the light of the ever-increasing hardship encountered by our secondary manufacturing industries and their employees because of dumping, contrary to the tenor of the agreement, which is affecting jobs, job opportunities and contracts throughout Canada, will the minister advise what immediate steps will be implemented to strengthen the competitiveness of these industries and thus to ensure employment?


Mr. Speaker:: I take the liberty of suggesting to the hon. member that this question is rather far-reaching. It would appear to me it involves the kind of information which should be given to the House by way of a general statement on motions. Perhaps the question could be framed along those lines.


Lincoln MacCauley Alexander: Keeping in mind what Your Honour has just said, I would point out with all due respect that this is a matter of urgency. I believe that many secondary industries-the textile industry and the electrical industry are among those which occur to me-are very concerned about the situation.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I appreciate the point made by the hon. member but I have suggested to him that his question is not in order. Perhaps the minister might answer it very briefly, or indicate whether he proposes to make a statement along the lines desired by the hon. member.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I would think the question falls more particularly within the jurisdiction of the Minister of National Revenue or of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. I will draw their attention to the question, however, and see what further information we can bring forward to confirm the continuing efforts of the government to stimulate our secondary industry.


Lincoln MacCauley Alexander: I appreciate the advice given to me by the Minister without Portfolio. Could the hon. gentleman assure me that he will discuss with his colleagues the necessity for a statement on this subject being made on motions at their respective convenience setting out the effectiveness of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade with particular reference to dumping?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Yes, sir.
Inquiries of the Ministry CABINET COMMITTEE STUDY OF TEXTILE PROBLEMS


Mr. Louis-Roland Comeau (South Western Nova):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether a cabinet committee is studying the problems of the textile industry and, indeed, the whole realm of the import and export trade of this country?


Mr. Speaker:: I suggest the question is not in order. In any event, I have serious doubts about it.



TEXTILES-ANNOUNCEMENT OF NEW GOVERNMENT POLICY

Mr. Gerald Laniel (Beauharnois):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question about the problem of the textile industry.
Considering that Dominion Textile has announced it would close some of its plants in the province of Quebec for at least a week, can the Acting Prime Minister say whether the cabinet will soon present its policy on textile products?
The responsible minister said yesterday in a reply to the member for Bellechasse that an announcement would soon be made-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the question of the hon. member is in order and that he should give the minister or the Acting Prime Minister the opportunity to answer.


Mitchell William Sharp: The question of government policy with respect to textiles is under urgent consideration in cabinet. No decision has yet been reached.
[Translation\


Hon. Martial Asselin (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a supplementary question.
As the hon. member for Beauharnois has just stated, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce has suggested on several occasions that this policy would soon be announced by the government. When does the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce expect to make that statement?


Mitchell William Sharp: Soon, Mr. Speaker.

May 13, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry [Translation]


Martial Asselin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put another supplementary question.
The word "soon" could mean many weeks. Meanwhile, the textile industry-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If the hon. member wishes to ask a supplementary question, he should do so.


Martial Asselin: Mr. Speaker, does "soon" mean that the announcement will be made in two days, or in a week or two?


Mitchell William Sharp: Soon, Mr. Speaker.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!



CUTBACKS AND CLOSURE OF ELECTRONICS PLANTS-REACTION TO UNION REPRESENTATIONS

Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton-The Sydneys):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question and I direct it to either the Minister without Portfolio or the Acting Prime Minister. With all due respect, the subject is very urgent and of nationwide importance. May I ask either of the two ministers what words of encouragement were given this morning to the union representatives from Canadian General Electric and Westinghouse regarding the announced cutbacks and closure of plants and lay-offs of men, particularly with reference to alleged dumping in the electronics field?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, other commitments prevented me from attending that particular meeting, but I have had this matter under review. Certainly the points that were raised at that meeting and which they also raised not too long previously, will be given urgent consideration.


Robert Muir: further supplementary question. Will the minister report back to the House at the earliest opportunity, since to the several hundred who will be laid off time is of the essence?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, I will draw the hon. member's question to the attention of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce who I think will want to deal with it more particularly and fully.



CORNWALL-DESIGNATION AS SPECIAL AREA

John Gilbert: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question which you may find very difficult to rule out of order, Mr. Speaker. It is addressed to the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the serious unemployment in the Cornwall area, and more especially in the textile industry, would the Acting Prime Minister designate that area under the regional expansion program and render all possible assistance?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member's suggestion will come to the attention of the minister.


John Gilbert: A supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I will allow the hon. member a supplementary, but I ask the House to realize that time is passing quickly and we have but touched two or three questions. I think we should try to limit the number of supplementaries. The hon. member for Simcoe North.



NATIONAL PARKS


Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. In view of the dissent voiced by youth today, and in view of the fact that there are many summer recreational camps on national park grounds for boys and girls which are sponsored by various service and church organizations, will such organizations be permitted to use these parks in the same way as in the past?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: Mr. Speaker, I would be inclined to answer the hon. member in the affirmative. However, the general policy must be taken into account and such policy provides that the parks are for the general use of all citizens and not only for a group in particular.
We try to maintain a certain balance between the use of parks by the general public and by particular groups, but priority must always be given to the public.


Philip Bernard Rynard: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I should like to ask the minister
May 13, 1970

whether the necessary arrangements have been made with the groups concerned to see that proper facilities are provided to them this summer?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what incident the hon. member is referring to, but if he will tell me what group he has in mind, I will be pleased to study the problem and make the necessary arrangements provided they are in line with our general policy.



DEVELOPMENT OF FORMER MEAFORD TANK RANGE AS PARK

Mr. P. V. Noble (Grey-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. Will the minister use his good offices in the interest of having the Meaford tank range, containing approximately 18,000 acres of ideal park property, made available and developed into a national park as a park is very urgently needed in densely populated western Ontario? I ask this question in view of the fact that there is some urgency to the matter, since it has been proposed that the property be turned over to Crown Assets Corporation for piecemeal disposal.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is now arguing his case. He has made a submission and he must assume that it will be taken into account by the minister.


Percy Verner Noble: Mr. Speaker, I should like an answer to the first part of the question.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, 1 wish to inform the hon. member that I would be very pleased if the government had more land at its disposal in the province of Ontario for developing new national parks.
If he is in agreement with our federal policy, he may wish to make pressures on the government of Ontario.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I must reiterate my suggestion to the hon. member and to all hon. members. This type of question should normally be placed on the Order Paper. If we get into the practice of asking questions that are localized to this extent, then the 40 minutes allotted to the question period will be insufficient. I appreciate the importance of the matter, which is obviously why I allowed the hon. member's question.
22375-20J
Inquiries of the Ministry WOMEN



INQUIRY AS TO ROYAL COMMISSION REPORT

Mr. Warren Allmand (Noire-Dame-de-Grace):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the concern expressed recently for the problems of women, would the Acting Prime Minister inform the House whether he knows when the Royal Commission on the Status of Women will make its report, in view of the fact that it has been meeting now for more than two years?


Some hon. Members:: "Soon."


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, on this occasion I can be somewhat more precise. I am advised that the commissioners expect to have their work completed by the end of June. Their report will then be sent to the government as soon as it is translated and printed.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State. In view of the representations made to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation by the Ottawa Senior Citizens Council requesting at least one program on radio and television planned by and for senior citizens, will the minister ask the CBC for a report on the possibility of agreeing to this request?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest to the hon. member that this question could be put on the Order Paper. If it is urgent it could be considered at the time of adjournment.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Ten
o'clock.



POLLUTION


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Acting Prime Minister. Has the Acting Prime Minister noticed the massive pollution floating on top of the once beautiful Ottawa River caused by the dumping of pollutant waste into the Rideau and Ottawa Rivers? If so,

May 13, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry does he not consider that this doorstep of the government would be a very excellent place to start an effective anti-pollution campaign?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, there are not many times when I can express my wholehearted support for the views of the hon. member.


George Harris Hees: You are smartening up.


Mitchell William Sharp: All I urge on the House is that we proceed as quickly as possible with the legislation that will help us deal with this problem more effectively.


George Harris Hees: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. When the limited amount of legislation that the government has been able to scrape together has been cleaned up, will the government get on with this very important job instead of just talking about it?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



U.S. IMPORT RESTRICTIONS-CONSULTATION BETWEEN GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES

Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Calgary North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address my question to the Acting Prime Minister in his capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is consultation still proceeding between Canada and the United States involving trade officials or other representatives of the two governments in regard to a reduction in the quotas on the export of crude petroleum from Canada?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what consultation means in this context. Certainly we have been making some representations to the United States. From the outset, of course, we objected very strongly to the application of these quota restrictions. We are hopeful that in the next round of discussions decisions will be reached within the United States administration that will be more favourable to Canada, and we hope that in the near future these restrictions will be removed.



SPEECH BY MINISTER OF ENERGY. MINES AND RESOURCES IN DENVER

['As the hon. member\nknows, Canada is not shipping any arms to Greece. It is contrary to our policy. We expect at the NATO council meeting to have some discussion of policy in relation to Greece, and I will bear in mind the views expressed by the hon. member.']
Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Has the Secretary of State for External Affairs received any reaction from United States trade officials with reference to the

speech that was delivered by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Denver, and does he consider this to be a proper method of consultation that will develop trade between the two countries?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The first part of the question is in order. In the second part of the question the hon. member is asking for an expression of opinion. The Acting Prime Minister may reply to the first part of the hon. member's supplementary question.


Mitchell William Sharp: I was so lost in the eloquence of the hon. member that I forgot the first part of his question. Would he repeat it?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I will help the Secretary of State for External Affairs. We have noted that his memory has failed several times lately, but I will put the question to him again. Has the minister received any reaction from the U.S. trade officials in reference to the speech delivered by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources? I will leave out the last part of my question in view of His Honour's ruling.


Mitchell William Sharp: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker.


Mr.   Jean-R. Roy@Timmins: I have a supplementary question for the Acting Prime Minister. It is supplementary in that it has to do with the same speech. Was the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources expressing government policy when he said in the United States on Monday: "We have not gone to the extent of jamming the air waves along the border, but who knows-even this might come"?


Mitchell William Sharp: Obviously, since the minister himself said "who knows", he could not possibly have been expressing government policy.


Mr. Baldwin:: That is the only government policy there is. Nobody knows, not even your barbers.



Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: I do not
know whether the Acting Prime Minister has got over the effects of his last joke.


Gerald William Baldwin: That is his monthly quota.
May 13, 1970


Francis Andrew Brewin: I should like to direct a question to him in his capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs. Will the government take the opportunity of the forthcoming NATO council meeting in Rome to express opposition to arms shipments to assist the military dictatorship which, according to the Council of Europe, maintains itself in Greece by torture and the denial of human rights?


Mitchell William Sharp: As the hon. member
knows, Canada is not shipping any arms to Greece. It is contrary to our policy. We expect at the NATO council meeting to have some discussion of policy in relation to Greece, and I will bear in mind the views expressed by the hon. member.



FINANCE


Mr. Leonel Beaudoin (Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.
Would he tell the House whether the object of the Bank of Canada's recent decision to reduce its discount rate is to allow for easier financing by the banks of stock market operations, considering the fact that Canadian stock exchanges have curtailed their requirements with regard to the margin of credit?


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered this question quite fully yesterday.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Have any representations been received from the de facto government of Greece complaining about the fact that certain Members of Parliament in Canada have been contributing to a radio fund which is designed to bring about division within Greece, a position that is not in keeping with Canada's neutrality?


Mitchell William Sharp: I have not had any personal representations along these lines from the
Inquiries of the Ministry Ambassador of Greece, but I will make inquiries to ascertain whether he has made complaints to the department.



IMMIGRATION


Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: I have a question for the Solicitor General. Can he report to the House on the progress of the inquiry regarding the presence in Canada of certain citizens of the United States who were inciting riots last week in Toronto, namely, one known as Captain America and the other known as Mad John Free, as well as the rest of that lovely bunch of immigrants that the government has allowed into Canada?


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (Solicitor General):: The question of the admission of persons from other countries to Canada is a matter for the Department of Manpower and Immigration. As to any activity of the police in investigating particular offences, it has not been usual to disclose the course of the investigations while they are being made.



CONSUMER AFFAIRS


Mr. Norman A. Cafik (Ontario):: My question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of the war on inflation, is the government planning any action directly or through the Prices and Incomes Commission in regard to the phenomenal increases in the prices of many staple food items, which impose hardship on many people in Canada today?


Stanley Ronald Basford: The Prices and
Incomes Commission has worked out a procedure with major food retailers to receive regular reports on any price increases. In addition, it is carrying on a number of specific inquiries, to which I referred in the House the other day, relating to a number of food items, coffee being one on which questions have been asked in the House, and a few other specific items.


Norman Augustine Cafik: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I should like to know whether there has been any positive result as a consequence of these consultations.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.

May 13, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Ronald Basford: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The chairman of the Prices and Incomes Commission, in discussing the estimates of the commission before the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs, spoke of a number of specific results. I believe the hon. member, in speaking to me before the House convened, indicated his interest in peanut butter, as did the hon. member for Peace River the other day, and I can say there was a roll-back in prices on that item.


An hon. Member:: This is why the cost of living is going up.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister in his capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the depletion of our salmon resources as a result of the deep-sea fishing operations carried out by Denmark, can the minister indicate whether any agreement has been reached between the Canadian government and the government of Denmark which would assist in conserving our Atlantic salmon?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not yet reached agreement with Denmark. Perhaps I might be permitted to table a summary of the representations we made to the Danish government, which I offered to table in deference to the views of another hon. member.


Mr. Speaker:: Is this agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



LABOUR RELATIONS


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I believe this is a day on which the Minister of Labour is supposed to be in the House.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: He is still out swimming.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I do not know whether he is off taking part in the Olympics.


Robert Muir: He is
having a tea party with Kierans.
IMr. Cafik.]


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I should like to ask the
Acting Prime Minister or the minister's Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what efforts are now being made to settle the towboat strike on the west coast which is now in its second week?


Stanley Ronald Basford: As acting minister, and particularly as the member for Vancouver Centre, I can say that we are most concerned that the strike be settled as quickly as possible. The officials of the Department of Labour are aware of the very serious nature of the situation. If there is any additional report to make, I will see that it is made tomorrow.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: May I express the hope that the Acting Minister of Labour will be more successful in his acting capacity than he has been in the control of the price of food.


Gerald William Baldwin: Or in getting the winter games.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



PUBLIC SERVICE


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: 1
have a question for the Acting Prime Minister. Does the appointment from private life of Mr. Jack Austin as Deputy Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources indicate a change in policy on appointments to the senior ranks of the Public Service?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member's question is hardly in order. I suggest he is asking the Acting Prime Minister to express an opinion as to policy. I do not think the question as asked is acceptable. The hon. member might like to rephrase it.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Perhaps I could indicate the nature of my question more precisely in a different form. Is the appointment of Mr. Jack Austin of a permanent nature or is it for a limited time?


Mitchell William Sharp: I believe it is of indefinite duration. If I may be permitted to comment on the earlier question that was ruled out, I should say that it has never been the policy of this or any other government-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.
May 13, 1970



HARBOURS


Mr. Barry Mather (Surrey):: I have a question tor the Minister of Transport. Having in mind the fact that British Columbia's new port at Roberts Bank is now in operation, can the minister bring us up to date on the status of the negotiations between the federal government and the government of British Columbia as to the ownership of the land at Roberts Bank?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, on the question of the ownership of Roberts Bank itself, that is, of the so-called superport, there have not been negotiations. There was no necessity for negotiations, and I am sure there is general agreement between ourselves and the British Columbia government that this is in fact a federal port. We have had negotiations with regard to the development of the back-up land which is clearly within provincial jurisdiction, and I am happy to report that these negotiations have gone amicably and as a result of our co-operation a considerable amount of development will be taking place.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I wish to put a question to the Secretary of State.
On Monday last, the minister read the lenghty explanations given by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on the coverage of the Quebec provincial elections. In view of the fact that the document had been drawn up by the CBC where some employees are no doubt trying to save their necks, would the minister think of setting up a commission independent of the House and of the CBC to look into the dealings of the Corporation with respect to the Canadian people?


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think this is a decision or an initiative that the minister should take alone. I rather think it is an initiative or a decision for the government as a whole. I can say to the hon. member that there is no question of it for the time being, but this possibili-
Inquiries of the Ministry ty cannot be completely excluded. As a matter of fact, I think that over the years the CBC has been one of the federal bodies that has been subjected to the greatest number of inquiries, royal and others.


Mr. Andre Fortin (Loibiniere):: Mr. Speaker,
I have a supplementary question.
Taking into account the remarks made by the Secretary of State, is he ready to suggest to the other members of the cabinet to take into consideration a suggestion made by the hon. member for Temiscamingue, and to make-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I suggest to the hon. member that the question as asked is out of order.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. In view of the very interesting and welcome announcement by the minister regarding a $2] million housing project at Schefferville. Quebec, covering some 106 fully serviced houses for 700 Indian people, can the minister advise the House when he will be in a position to announce a program of comparable size for some of our Indian communities in western Canada, particularly those in Manitoba where they are greatly in need of housing?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, the setting up of priorities within a department is always a difficult matter. However, as the situation in Shefferville had been getting worse for many years, we have decided to bring about a solution. I would like to tell the hon. member that as a rule the number of Indians living in each province is taken into account when housing programs are prepared. Generally speaking I do not think that Manitoba got less than it was entitled to according to its population. I can assure the hon. member that we will do our utmost to promote progress in the province of Manitoba as well as in the rest of Canada.


Robert Simpson: A supplementary question. In view of the accouncement some four years ago by the deputy minister that within five

May 13, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry years every Indian and Eskimo person in Canada would be living in fully serviced housing, can the minister say if that target date for this program will be met?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Unfortunately no, Mr. Speaker. We cannot achieve this objective because, first of all, appropriations for housing have been reduced. Moreover, in view of increased costs, we had to raise from $7,000 to $8,500 the minimum amount for each house, and this has delayed construction. I intend to suggest to the government a program-


Mr. Speaker:: Order.



BROADCASTING


Mr. J. P. Nowlan (Annapolis Valley):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Secretary of State. It may not be quite as clear and concise as I would like to make it. In view of the interest and widespread concern regarding the CRTC's proposals, the fact that the chairman has said he is just interpreting the will of Parliament, and the fact that participatory democracy is supposed to be practised and not just preached, would the minister get in touch with the Chairman of the CRTC to ensure that before he makes his announcement on these proposals there will be an opportunity for this House, not for a committee but for the House itself, to express the will of Parliament on the proposals?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, my impression is that what the hon. member is requesting amounts to asking the government to take the advice of the House before releasing a white paper, and this has not been the custom so far.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, my interpretation system went on the blink and I am not entirely sure what the minister said, but I would like to direct a supplementary question to the Acting Prime Minister who was in the House until a few moments ago. If the Acting Prime Minister is still here in the person of the Solicitor General, I would like to ask him whether the Minister of Energy, Mines and

Resources, in his remarks at Denver yesterday to the petroleum association meeting, was expressing a government policy of unqualified support for the present proposals of the CRTC, which the minister endorsed as found on page 34 of his speech? Was that government policy or was he just overcome with gas?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: I will rephrase it, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think I should bring to the attention of the hon. member that the question period has just about expired and there are so many other members who should really be given an opportunity to ask questions.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: On a point of order, or could 1 rephrase the question, because I rose 26 times?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I appreciate this but there are 26 other members who have also risen 26 times. However, perhaps the hon. member might be given 30 seconds in which to rephrase the question.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: I thank you for your indulgence. The only reason I presume upon the House's tolerance is that the decision of the CRTC is almost on us, and it would help clarify the matter considerably for members of the government caucus, let alone all other members of the House-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I assume that the hon. member has now asked his supplementary.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: It would help clarify the matter immeasurably if the Acting Prime Minister could tell the House if the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources was expressing government policy of unqualified support for the present CRTC proposals, when he endorsed them on page 34 of his speech?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, the Acting Prime Minister has not read the speech yet.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Robert Lorne Stanfield: You are lucky.
May 13, 1970



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Solicitor General. In light of the inflammatory and provocative statements made by the RCMP at a picket line in front of Acadia Fisheries at Canso, Nova Scotia, on Monday last to the effect that they did not want a particular union involved in that area, would he investigate the situation and ensure that the RCMP keeps its nose out of such matters?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member is making a suggestion to the Solicitor General and he has to assume it will be noted.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Ralph Stewart (Cochrane):: Mr. Speaker, I regret you did not catch my eye while the Secretary of State for External Affairs was here, but I have a question of such importance that I should like to direct it to whatever minister is now Acting Prime Minister. What is the official reaction of the government concerning the Israeli attack on Lebanon, a country which has tried to maintain relative neutrality in the Middle East crisis?


George James McIlraith: I would be very glad to draw that question to the attention of the Secretary of State for External Affairs.


Ralph Wesley Stewart: If I may be permitted a supplementary, perhaps the minister would also like to call to the attention of the Secretary of State for External Affairs that there are 80,000 Canadians of Lebanese origin who are most concerned about this situation and would like to have the question answered.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I believe the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka seeks the floor on a point of order.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Before Your Honour calls orders of the day I rise to point out to the House the award this week to Bobby Orr of Parry Sound, defence-

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts man for the Boston Bruins, of the Conn Smythe trophy for being the most valuable player in the National Hockey League playoffs. This completes for him a clean sweep of the top NHL honours for the current hockey season. Last week Bobby was awarded the Hart trophy for the league's most valuable player, the Art Ross trophy for the league's top scorer, and the Norris award as the NHL's best defenceman for the third successive season. I am sure all Canadians are proud that a young Canadian such as Bobby Orr, with his fine sense of sportsmanship, has gained such worldwide recognition.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. Is the hon. member for Lisgar rising on a point of order?


Mr. Muir (Lisgar):: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Before you call orders of the day I wonder if I might be permitted, having risen several times, to put a short question to the Minister of Finance.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member having risen 27 times, I am sure the House will allow him to ask his question.



TAXATION


George Robson Muir: My question is for the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker. Now that the minister has had the considered opinions of a large segment of the population in regard to the government's white paper on tax reform and has hired some very expensive help to answer these representations, is he in a position to inform the House that he will be dropping the more confiscatory proposals from inclusion-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I suggest to the hon. member that this question has been asked at least a few times during this question period. Orders of the day.



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: that Bill C-212, to amend the Yukon Act, the
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts Northwest Territories Act and the Territorial Lands Act, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Indian Affairs and Northern Development.
He said: Mr. Speaker, further to what the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken) said about our great Canadian, Bobby Orr, I should like to point out to the House that the Montreal Junior Canadiens won the Memorial Cup in four games-so it is great to have good hockey players in Canada.

A few weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, I had the great pleasure of introducing in the House a bill on the prevention of pollution in Arctic waters which clearly sets forth under what conditions those waters will be open to shipping, without endangering the quality of the water or the ecological balance in the Canadian North. Today, I am equally pleased to move second reading of a bill entitled "An Act to amend the Yukon Act, the Northwest Territories Act and the Territorial Lands Act".
The aim of this bill is twofold. On the one hand, it is aimed at promoting the constitutional development of both territories, in the sense that it will enable their residents to assume more responsibility in the day-to-day administration of their respective governments. On the other hand, it will enable the federal government to better protect the environment. Essentially, the North has been left in its primitive stage and we must take immediate steps so that the development of its resources will continue without jeopardizing the delicate ecological balance of those regions.
The government of Canada has very special responsibilities towards the northern territories. Although the area covers a vast surface, which represents almost 40 per cent of the total surface of Canada, it has less than 1 per cent of the Canadian population. A great number of the inhabitants are Indians or Eskimos still attached to their traditional way of life. Being far from great population and production centres, those two territories are still largely unexplored. The transportation problems and the weather conditions are obviously quite difficult. For all those reasons, the North must still rely on the assistance of the federal government to develop its resources, protect its ecosystem and play a more important role in the national life. The territories are dependent on the central government for the legislation establishing the 
structure of their own government and I suggest that the legislation be again amended, in order to meet their present needs and to maintain an harmonious balance among the requirements of political, economic and social progress in those areas.
There is a close relation between the welfare of the inhabitants of the North and the development of northern resources. This relation has become more than ever significant, as the Yukon and the Mackenzie district-which is part of the Northwest Territories-have become major centres of investment and have acquired an international importance, as reservoirs of raw materials. Very important mines are in operation at Pine Point in the Northwest Territories as well as at Faro and Clinton Creek, in the Yukon. The northern mining industry has reached an exceptional development level in the last few years: let us merely mention that mining production in the Canadian North which was less than $30 million in 1964, will exceed $200 million this year. But the most spectacular strides are still to come.
Northern Canada's oil and gas potential has generated unprecedented activity in the Mackenzie delta and the Arctic islands. This activity will most certainly bring new material benefits to the population but at the same time will not fail to complicate its way of life. The people of the North expect, and rightly so, that improvement in their living standard will be accompanied by the right to play a more active part in their government. These proposed amendments to the Yukon Act and the Northwest Territories Act have been drafted to this end. The amendment to the Territorial Lands Act, that I am also asking the House to consider, is intended to protect the surface of such lands.
[DOT] (3:10 p.m.)
The introduction of this bill follows closely behind two important pieces of legislation that I submitted to the House and whose object was to protect northern wafers: an Act respecting inland water resources in the Yukon Territory and Northwest Territories, introduced in March, and the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act, introduced in April.
It may be useful to remind the House of the evolution of government in the Canadian North. All the citizens elect representatives to the territorial councils, which have legislative powers similar to those held by the provincial Legislatures, except in the field of national resources. Judicially, the Commissioner of
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
each territory remains responsible to the federal government; in practice, however, he is a resident of the territories, he examines the wishes of the Council and he takes into account the interests of the local population.
In the Yukon, there is since 1908 a Council entirely elected by the people. Now it has seven members. Until 1951, the four members of the Council of the Northwest Territories were appointed. After 1951, three elected representatives for the district of Mackenzie were added to the Council. In 1954, with the addition of a fourth elected representative, the Council consisted of nine members. At that time the eastern Arctic, that is the Keewatin district and Baffin Island, had no representative. In 1966, however, the number of members on the Council was increased to twelve, of whom three were elected by the eastern Arctic representatives. Today seven of the council's twelve members are elected and five are appointed.
In the Yukon, the participation of councillors, at the executive level, started in 1960, when was established the Advisory Committee on Finance, made up of three members of the Council, whose task is to look into the estimates before they are submitted to the Council. The experience gained by that committee, as well as the existence since 1898 of a permanent territorial public service have made it possible for the Yukon to take one more step towards autonomy. Closer links should now be established between the executive and legislative functions of the Yukon government.
The Northwest Territories have not had the same long administrative experience at the local level. Hon. members will remember Mr. Speaker, that a few years ago it was considered that the Northwest Territories would be better handled if they were divided into two sections and two bills for this purpose were brought forward in the House. There were at the time many people who believed that separate political units should be established in view of the social and economic differences between the inhabitants of the western Arctic and those of the eastern territories. It is a fact that the valley of the Mackenzie river was enjoying an economic boom and also had a greater population, whereas the District of Keewatin, the Arctic islands and Baffin Island were still very undeveloped. Almost the whole population of the districts of Keewatin and Franklin were Eskimos who were not, at the time, directly represented at the Territorial Council.
DEBATES	6923
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts
Therefore, it was decided in 1965 to create an advisory commission on the development of the Northwest Territories government, that is the Carrothers Commission. Its members travelled through the territories, consulted the inhabitants and reported to the federal government in the fall of 1966.
As expected, the Advisory Commission realized that the people's most ardent desire was to have a Territorial government that would administer local affairs right on the spot. The Commission recommended Yellowknife as the capital of the Northwest Territories, and the Commissioner and his administrative staff therefore left Ottawa to settle there in September 1967. The gradual transfer of the government services of the Department of Northern Development to the new seat of government at Yellowknife was effected according to a well defined plan. Such a transfer of administrative duties from one level of government to another and from a well organized centre to a completely new framework, has been obviously a tremendous job. I am happy to say that it has been well done and that the territorial administration is no longer an invisible public service, far away here in Ottawa, but a living thing, a very active body whose work is done on the spot, in the North, from Yellowknife.
Hon. members will no doubt be interested to learn that the government has implemented so far 19 of the Carrothers recommendations. In addition, five more have been partially followed up. Four only have not been upheld.
When I addressed the Yukon and Northwest Territories councils in November last in connection with the development of their territorial governments, I told them that our two main objectives were to protect and promote the legitimate interests of those living in the North, especially Indians and Eskimos, and to comply with the wishes of the population by making it more self-governing. I then pointed out that our review of the development of government in the North, as a result of the recommendations of the Carrothers Commission and of the various proposals made in this connection by both territorial councils, led us to the main conclusion that the present borders of the territories should not be changed. I stated that granting provincial status to one or the other of the territories was not, at this time or in the near future, a truly realistic solution. I added that the federal government thinks that it has to carry on the administration and development of the
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts natural resources of the North, for the benefit of the inhabitants of these regions and of all Canadians in general. I believe that these major questions have been dealt with for the moment.

Before I deal with the provisions of the bill in detail, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out that there is a major step in the constitutional development of the Yukon territory which does not appear in the bill. In order to have the members of the council of the Yukon participate more fully in the executive functions of government I will be instructing the commissioner to establish an executive committee which will assist him in the exercise of his responsibility as chief executive officer of the territory. This committee is to consist of two members of the Yukon Council to be selected by the members of council, the two assistant commissioners, who are officers of the Yukon administration, and the commissioner himself who will be the chairman of the committee. This change in the executive structure of the government of the Yukon has great potential for the future. I will be following it closely. If the changes now being introduced prove successful, they could point the way to further constitutional progress.
The changes proposed in the bill reflect the differences between the two territories in the historical development of their governments. For the Northwest Territories there will be an increase in the elected representatives on the council from seven to ten members, and a reduction in the number of appointed members from five to four. This supports the principle that eventually the appointed members should be replaced entirely by elected residents of the territories. It provides for one more elected member than was announced last November. I hope that increasing the number of elected representatives will lead to greater involvement of Indian and Eskimo people in territorial affairs, for the territorial government is theirs too. I should like to point out that up to now we have had only one Eskimo elected and one Indian appointed.
I hope that this increase in elected representatives will change the pattern in the territories and that more Eskimos, Indians and Metis will be selected to serve, because more than half the population of the Northwest Territories is of native background.
Following my statement to the Northwest Territories Council last November, a proposal to establish a full range of standing commit-
tees has been adopted. This will ensure the council a greater role in guiding the operations of their government service and will enable them to fully use their existing powers and responsibilities. Extending the life of the councils from three to four years conforms t&. the practice for provincial assemblies. Similarly, the amendments which deal with ses-. sional indemnities for members of the councils and the reduction of the period of disallowance of territorial legislation will bring constitutional practice closer into line with that of the provinces.
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
The commissioner in council will also be able to provide payment to council members for service on committees. The right to prescribe the qualifications of persons entitled to vote or to be elected in territorial elections is a matter of territorial concern and it is not considered necessary to retain any limitations in the federal act. Additionally, there are amendments proposed in the bill to provide both councils with more authority over matters of a purely local nature. It is our desire to transfer from the federal acts to appropriate territorial legislation as many administrative matters as possible, such as the tabling of territorial accounts and the lending of territorial funds.
Amendments providing for changes in the territorial courts and the administration of justice parallel the approach to the constitutional growth of the two territorial governments. My colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner), will speak on these matters later in the debate. There is also provision to allow members of the federal public service staff relations board to serve on similar boards established by the territories where requested by the territorial government. A temporary change is proposed in the Canada Elections Act to permit some flexibility in the date of territorial elections following any changes in the qualifications of voters or candidates that the councils may adopt.
It will be of interest to members to note that the context in which these amendments are introduced is one of extremely high cost for government services in the north and the limited capacity of the small population to sustain them. For the fiscal year 1970-71, the government of the Yukon territory has budgeted for expenditures of approximately $26 million, of which local revenues will meet slightly more than 20 per cent. To this must be added the normal recoveries under the
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
cost-shared programs and the usual provincial share of income tax. For the same period, the government of the Northwest Territories plans to spend about $74.5 million while local revenues will account for less than 10 per cent of this expenditure, to which again should be added recoveries and income tax. The balance for both territories comes from the federal government through special grants and loans.
I now want to deal, Mr. Speaker, with the proposed amendments to the Territorial Lands Act. These will give the Governor in Council authority to make regulations respecting the use and conservation of the surface of territorial lands that are managed by my department. The land use regulations are part of a four-point program to protect northern lands. They reflect this government's determination that the lessons of earlier development will be taken to heart in the north. With the Arctic land use research program, the conservation task force and the summer field trials about which I spoke recently in Winnipeg, they offer assurance that ecological disturbance in the north will be eliminated or minimized. Taken together with the northern inland waters bill and the Arctic waters pollution prevention bill, they are evidence that we do not intend to repeat in the north the mistakes made elsewhere.
Under the amendments hon. members are asked to consider today, land management zones will be established within which specific guidelines will be set forth to regulate operations in each zone. We shall thus be able to protect the delicate tundra without unduly restricting activity in the northern desert. Anyone carrying out land use operations in a land management zone will be required to obtain a permit prior to commencing operations. The permit will establish the manner in which operations must be carried out and will ensure that plans are submitted to minimize the damage and to make certain that rehabilitation is undertaken where it is required. The new land use regulations are being designed in close collaboration with conservationists, the territorial governments and the industries affected. We have had voluntary co-operation from industry which in many cases is already following practices which will be mandatory under the proposed legislation.
Let me be perfectly clear about one thing. This government is committed to the strict enforcement of these regulations. We are determined that the north shall not fall victim to the evils of uncontrolled exploita-
DEBATES	6925
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts tion. We are currently meeting representatives of the oil industry, the mining industry and the forestry interests because they are the people who know what they want to do. We are also meeting with conservationists and the territorial government because they are the ones who know what they do not want to see happen. Hopefully, the regulations will be acceptable to all these widely diverse interests. If they are not, the government must and will accept its responsibilities.
Although these land use regulations will be the best we can devise, there is much we do not know about the Arctic. To complement the regulations, therefore, we are embarking on a $500,000 a year Arctic land use research program which we call ALUR. This program is designed specifically to examine the effects of land use in the Arctic and to develop methods of minimizing possible damage. From the results of this program, in which will be involved the same interests as those used in making up the regulations, amendments to the regulations will be proposed. Mr. Speaker, it is not necessary for the people of Canada to spend millions of dollars to find out how the Arctic environment can be protected against abuse. Clearly, government can order industry to pay the costs necessary to convince us that their proposed activities are safe. It is up to those who wish to extract raw materials to find out and tell us how they can operate within the government's land use regulations and without damaging the delicate northern eco-systems.
One last word, Mr. Speaker, about the make-up of the task force on northern conservation. It will be composed of five university conservationists and scientists who will be accompanied by three oil company officials able to point out the objectives and operations of industry. Thus, the academicians will not be thrust into the field uncertain of industry's needs or desires. The report should thus reflect the realities of the north. In addition, there will be departmental officials who will not be part of the report-making group but will serve as liaison officers to assist the active members of the task force.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would ask all members of the House to give this legislation their full support. I hope this legislation will be passed quickly because there will be an election this year in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. It is important that these changes be adopted in order to permit the local people to elect more representatives. I hope the good relations we have had with the
6926	COMMONS DEBATES	May 13, 1970
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts elected representatives of the north will continue in the future. It is obvious we cannot agree all the time; however, I am certain the people of Canada and the people in the Northwest Territories realize we have made a lot of progress in a few years.
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
There is more activity in the north than ever before. We have tried to bring about the right development of the north, keeping in mind the interests of all the different groups there. This is why in the last few months we have been able, with the co-operation of this House, to pass a good deal of legislation which will ensure that the development of the north will be achieved in such a way as to avoid repeating the errors which have been made in the south and to see that the north, which represents 40 per cent of all the land in Canada, will be managed in such a fashion that a couple of centuries from now people will contend that we in this Parliament did show a bit of wisdom.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It concerns the propriety of bringing this bill before the House at the present time. I should like to point out to Your Honour that it is a long bill, an omnibus bill containing a great many clauses and involving a great many subjects, some of them highly technical. The bill was not available to members of this House until yesterday afternoon. We found out suddenly, at the end of the day's proceedings, that it would be discussed today.
It is true there are two members of this House, the Parliamentary Secretary who represents the Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange) and my hon. friend for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen), who have an extensive and intimate knowledge of problems of the people living in those areas and that there are, perhaps, others in this House who have a somewhat inferior degree of knowledge on this subject. But I am sure Your Honour will agree that the great majority of members simply do not have the necessary background of information to enable them to pass judgment immediately on this bill or to debate it today.
It is not merely a matter of the general principle of the bill because, as I say, this is an omnibus measure. Surely, if legislation of a technical nature on a subject with which most members are completely unfamiliar is to be presented to the House, some time should be allowed for research. For example, one

might wish to examine the bill in connection with the terms of the Carrothers report. I strenuously object to this way of handling the business of the House and hope that through consultation with House leaders or otherwise a situation of this kind may be avoided in future.
I realize that according to reports, the government is running out of business and has nothing else for us to do. But that is not the fault of the opposition. It is disgraceful that a piece of legislation concerning all aspects of life in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories should be brought down with so little notice. Although the bill is technical and detailed, we could not get it until yesterday afternoon, and no one dreamed this kind of thing would be brought up for debate today. No doubt the hon. member for Yukon and the hon. member for Northwest Territories could contribute very well to a debate of this kind, but where does that leave other members? I bring the matter to the attention of Your Honour, hoping this kind of situation will not occur again.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say to the hon. member, through you, that there is nothing very new in the bill before us. If he had followed what I have been saying, as he is supposed to do in his capacity as the spokesman for his party on matters relating to my department, he would know that the provisions contained in this bill were dealt with in speeches I made in the Northwest Territories and in the Yukon last November. Immediately afterward there was a special day for debate in this House, during which all these issues were discussed.
As I explained, it is necessary to bring this legislation forward now because an election is needed this year-the term of office of the elected council will expire in August. There is nothing completely new in this legislation. I have made extensive speeches on the subject. I am surprised the hon. member should wish to create the impression that he has been taken by surprise. If he has been taken by surprise it is probably because he has not paid enough attention to his homework.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, I thought I made it quite clear that one or two members are able to debate this subject now and that some of the rest of us are sufficiently well informed to take part. But I object to this bill not having been in print until this time yesterday, and to its being brought before the House so soon afterward.
May 13, 1970	COMMONS


Mr. Speaker:: I see that the hon. member tor Skeena (Mr. Howard) wishes to take part in the discussion on the point of order. I am not sure whether he believes this to be necessary. The hon. member nods his head, so I shall allow him to make his contribution.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I would not have spoken had it not been for what the minister said in response to the point raised by the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) when he told us that the bill contained nothing new but simply reflected what the minister had said in previous speeches. This may well be the case, but I contend that the period which has elapsed between publication of the bill and the start of this debate is so short that it has not been possible for us to check this out and to determine what, in fact, the bill does contain.


An hon. Member:: And to re-read his
voluminous speeches.


Frank Howard: Yes. If we were to read all the speeches which pour out of the minister's office as though he were running a printing press, a month would be more like the time required.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Thank you for the compliment.


Frank Howard: We all know that most of the speeches written by the minister's public relations people never show up in legislation. The minister's argument in substantiation of his position really founders at this point.


Mr. Speaker:: I assume the point raised by the hon. member for Oxford was intended as a caveat. The hon. member will recognize that the Chair is only required to determine whether the procedure laid down in the rules has been adhered to. This bill was introduced on Monday and ordered to be printed. It was printed overnight and made available yesterday. I appreciate that this is a somewhat rapid sequence of events.
The President of the Privy Council (Mr. Macdonald) announced yesterday that it would be debated today. I recognize that this amounts to proceeding with some expedition in the consideration of the measure. At the same time, our Standing Orders recognize that the calling of business from day to day is the responsibility of the government. The Chair cannot substitute its judgment for that of the government in such matters, bearing in mind particularly that this responsibility is
DEBATES	6927
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts cast upon the government by the Standing Orders themselves.


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, the minister's statement that he has merely embodied in this legislation proposals which have been raised in his earlier speeches is inaccurate. That is the kindliest way in which I can put it. I shall endeavour to substantiate this point as I proceed. Before doing so, however, I should like to deal with two other matters which may affect the propriety of our considering this bill today more seriously than the point of order which has just been raised by my hon. friend. Your Honour will note that on page 2 is set forth the recommendation which was made in bringing the bill before the House. On line 8 there is the following phrase: "and to increase the size of the respective councils and the number of members elected thereto." My interpretation of that phrase is that it is the intention to increase the size of both councils. If that were not so, the phraseology referring to the "size of the respective councils" would not have been used.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
The amendments to the Northwest Territories Act do contemplate an increase in the size of the Northwest Territorial Council, but nowhere in the amendment to the Yukon Act is there any reference to an increase in the size of the Yukon Council. If the recommendation that is before Parliament is that the size of the respective councils is to be increased, the bill would appear to be deficient or the House is not being given the proper information. Before proceeding with the second point, I think in that regard there might be a reply to the point of order.


Mr. Turner (Otiawa-Carleton):: Mr. Speaker, under the new rules the recommendation replaces the earlier request for permission to introduce any bill affecting the balance of ways and means. It used to be that points of order were brought against a recommendation because it was too narrow. This point of order is brought against it because it is allegedly too wide.


Erik Nielsen: No.


John Napier Turner: The point of the recommendation is to replace the earlier authorization for ways and means. If the recommendation is too wide, or refers to two councils instead of one, surely that error would only go to a superabundance of caution and would not affect the legitimacy of the bill.
6928	COMMONS DEBATES	May 13. 1970
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts


Erik Nielsen: On that point, Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not complaining because the recommendation is too wide. The point I raised was that I would have liked to see the amendment increasing the size of the Yukon Council, and I thought that was what the minister was going to do. Since the recommendation before the House is that both councils are to be increased in size, surely we can expect the amendment to the Yukon Act to increase the size of the Yukon Council.


Mr. Speaker:: I would have to rule on the basis of the interpretation that has been placed on the words by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner). The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) will appreciate that not being familiar with all the details of the statutes that are completely familiar to him and to other members of the House, I have to make a decision which perhaps is not as completely informed as it might be. I am impressed by the argument of the Minister of Justice that this recommendation covers more than what is included in the bill, and as the minister has said it may be an overabundance of caution. But generally speaking, when a point of order is raised against a royal recommendation it is because it is too narrow and does not cover all the terms of the bill in question.
In this instance the hon. member objects to it because there are not in the bill some matters which perhaps should have been there in order to be covered by the royal recommendation. I would not think that this makes the recommendation invalid. I hope I am not making a mistake in this regard, but I will look into the matter further and try to study the point a little more closely. I assume that this bill is not going to be passed immediately but will eventually come back to the House, so there will still be time either to make a correction by getting an amended recommendation or by clarifying the point after I have looked into the situation more closely.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, I agree that one can never fail to be impressed by the arguments of the Minister of Justice, even though they may not always be right. The minister said in his opening remarks that the changes he is introducing in the Yukon Act and the Northwest Territories Act are leading to constitutional development because of an assumed increase in responsibility. The minister knows very well that that is not the case. The minister knows that the amendments that he is asking the House, or that he will

eventually be asking the House to approve are merely mechanical amendments. There is no increased responsibility being given to the legislative council of the Yukon or Northwest Territories.
If the minister had amended section 24 of the act to make provision for the members of the territorial council in both territories to have some legislative authority over the introduction of money bills in their own forums, I would have agreed with him that there would be an increased amount of responsibility. I would also agree that there would be an increased amount of responsibility if he had set up an executive within the council with the power to control the various departments of government.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I just said that.


Erik Nielsen: The minister is misleading the House. He has done this in the past and he is doing it again. Every time he has accused the people of the Yukon of demanding provincial status, I have said to him that that is not true. I have said that that is not what they want, it is not what they asked for and it is not what the members of the council have passed on to him by way of several resolutions from the council. What they want is a program of changes leading eventually, over a period of years, to provincial autonomy.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: This is what they have.


Erik Nielsen: We do not have that provided for in the bill. In no way can it be taken to be a blueprint or a program leading to eventual autonomy. All we have in this bill is an amendment that allows the council to subsist for four years instead of three and which will include, among the powers granted under section 16 of the act, certain limited power over matters affecting the administration of justice. I submit this is no progress toward provincial status.
If the two ministers concerned, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner) and the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) feel that it is, I should like them to explain how they feel a great stride toward control over the administration of justice has been made, in view of the fact that they sent to Whitehorse to do the groundwork a civil servant who reports and is responsible to the federal authority. Surely, if any progress were to be made toward the achievement of responsible government in the territories, what the government should have done was to say to the commissioners in
May 13, 1970

council, "You take the administration of justice under your wing. Set yourselves up a territorial attorney general's office and go ahead and administer justice".
The government should not try to do this by attempting to delude the members of this House, the people of the territories and of Canada at large into believing that some kind of progress has been made. All the government is doing is transferring the function from Ottawa to Whitehorse through a federal civil servant. That is the situation, and it is the same situation in the Northwest Territories as in Yellowknife. It is an unsatisfactory situation. It is not at all what the people of the Yukon want, and the minister of northern affairs knows that.
Although it has nothing to do with the bill, the minister speaks of the Indian and Eskimo people in the north, who are always singled out as being something apart. The minister spoke of only one Eskimo and one Indian being on the Northwest Territories Council; that they are Canadian citizens and are given the same opportunity as anybody else to run for elections on either of these councils.
However, if the truth of the matter were known there is in the Northwest Territories a marked racial prejudice fostered by the minister's department. The minister shrugs. Let him tell me why does he does not extend the water and sewer systems in Inuvik beyond the edge of the town and start to service Indian homes in the area.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I think the hon. member is completely out of touch with the facts. There are now in Inuvik Indian and Eskimo homes under the system, and we are extending the system. But there are many people coming to Inuvik from outside. As a result of the great progress that we have made in the economic development of the Northwest Territories, the population in the Inuvik area is increasing. This cause the facilities to be overburdened. However, this can be contrasted with the situation that existed when the hon. member's party was in power. The situation then was one of depression.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)


Erik Nielsen: I will not look backward, as the minister is fond of doing, and I will not fight with him on a partisan basis in this debate. I accuse his department of racial prejudice, and I stand by that accusation. The minister cannot say I am out of touch with facts there, because I live there as does the

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts hon. member for Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange). If he can tell me I am out of touch with the facts when I say that people in the Yukon live in conditions of the most abject poverty-if he can deny that I will eat my words. But until then he has to live with the accusation of racial prejudice and should start doing something about it. I suggest to him that this opinion is not my own and is not confined to the people in the north. The opinion is shared by some world organizations. I would refer to the recent gift of $1,100 by the World Council of Churches to the Yukon Indian people to assist them in fighting poverty. I wonder if the department will match that grant.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I replied to your other leader about it the other day.


Erik Nielsen: When the minister gives us this gobbledegook about maintaining a balance between political and economic development, what he is saying in effect-as he has said so often before-is that he who pays the piper calls the tune. He is saying in effect that he will continue to be the great white father to the people in the Yukon; that he will continue, through his department, keeping the people of the Yukon under the bureaucratic and administrative thumb for as long as he deems it desirable, and it seems to me that will be a long time indeed.
He says that the people of the two territories are being allowed to play a greater role in their government. I say that is hogwash. He says that these amendments to the Yukon Act will permit the people of these two territories to play a greater role in their government. That also is hogwash. He says, too- I do not know whether he said it with the intention to mislead the wise but the kindest thing I can say is that probably he did not do his homework too well and that is why he erred-that the powers of the legislature in the Yukon are the same as those in the provinces, except in the field of resources. He knows that that is not true. He knows that there is one exception to the similarity, which means all the difference in the world, and that is the power under section 24 whereby no money bill can appear before the council unless the minister says so through the commissioner. That is what we would like to see amended. I have said this in the House before and I do not know why the minister cannot understand it: certainly it should be to him, a Quebecker, just as close to his heart as it is to ours in the north and to freedom-loving Canadians everywhere.
May 13. 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts Why does the municipal council in Whitehorse and the municipal council in Dawson have greater powers, with respect to the spending of tax money raised by them, than the territorial council? Why is there this great reluctance to permit the members of the territorial council to introduce measures on the spending of tax money which they are expected to raise by the minister's edict? Why should the minister say to the commissioner, "Get the council to increase taxes" but to the council he says, "I am sorry; you cannot have any say in any measure that is introduced to council as to the way in which taxes will be spent". That is the situation. I would have expected to see, if the minister is not merely paying lip service to this business of increasing responsibility for the people in the territories, an amendment along those lines contained in the Yukon Act. It can be expected that such an amendment will be brought forward in the committee.
Again, the minister has attempted to leave the impression with the members of the House that the territorial government is somehow a different animal from the federal government. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that the Commissioner of the Yukon, as is the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, is an appointed federal civil servant, appointed by the minister and taking orders from the minister and his officials in Ottawa. That is the truth of the matter. If the commissioner is told by the minister to hop, he will hop; if he is told to jump, he will jump; if he is told not to do something, he will not do it-but if he is told to do something, he will do it. This has to be the situation, because if the commissioner did not follow orders the minister would soon fire him.


Gerald William Baldwin: He is like the Liberal
backbenchers.


Erik Nielsen: That is a good similarity. That is the truth of the matter. The same applies in the Northwest Territories. If there is to be modicum of progress toward responsible government, why not pass to the elected representatives some of the powers for which they have been asking for many years? The seven members of the council were invited by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) to come to Ottawa. They came here and sat for several hours with the Prime Minister and the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien). They left Ottawa greatly encouraged that real progress would be made 
toward some measure of responsible government. What do they have? They have a big, fat goose-egg. But they did not expect much more, having regard to the size of the goose.
The minister referred to the consultative committee. There is no such animal. What he was referring to was the advisory committee on finance. This was set up by way of an amendment to the Yukon Act. It is a committee composed of three members of the council, selected by the council, with whom the commissioner in the Yukon must confer when preparing the budget. That is all the advisory committee is. If the minister did not want to remove in its entirety the stifling effect of section 24, prohibiting any council member from introducing a money bill in administrative form, surely minimally he would have said it would not be by message of the commissioner that money bills would be introduced in the future, but it would be by the advice of the advisory committee on finance. The commissioner sits as a member on that committee. In that way the elected members on the council would be able to introduce money measures. The minister says that the Yukon has been allowed to progress toward autonomy. Nothing could be further from the truth. The minister should stop attempting to lead the members of this House into believing that the people of the Yukon are asking for provincial status. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This leads me to the second point I want to make by way of a point of order. I am sorry that the minister left his seat, but perhaps I might raise it with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner). The minister indicated in his remarks that he was going to instruct the commissioner to set up an executive committee which would be comprised of two members of the council to be selected by them, two executive assistant commissioners and the commissioner himself, making a total executive committee of five members. What struck me about that statement was the minister's assertion that he was going to instruct the commissioner to set up this committee. I am sure the Minister of Justice is aware that when the advisory committee on finance was set up it was done by amendment to the Yukon Act, and I doubt very much if there is power in the act to instruct the commissioner, or even for the commissioner acting on his own to set up a body such as this committee and clothe it with any powers at all.

May 13, 1970
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)
The powers of the council are set forth in section 16 of the Yukon Act. Those powers cannot be exercised except by the commissioner in Council. The powers that the minister has with respect to the setting up of bodies of this nature are contained in the act, and if they are not in the act then he has no such power. So I very much question the constitutionality of the minister instructing the commissioner to set up an executive committee, howsoever he wants to compose it.
There is no objection, and it is certainly within the power of the minister to instruct the commissioner to set up a committee comprised of civil servants. But when he purports to instruct the commissioner to include in the administrative fabric of his department two elected members of the council I think he is going too far constitutionally, and certainly he would be going too far if he attempted to clothe that committee with any powers unless he did it by way of amendment to the Yukon Act. However, it is a simple matter to resolve. If he wishes to do this, I am sure it would not take long to prepare an amendment and perhaps pass it to the chairman of the committee to which this bill will be referred.
I have one main objection with respect to the amendments to the Northwest Territories Act. The arguments I have advanced with respect to the Yukon apply equally with respect to the Northwest Territories, save perhaps with one exception which is that progress to eventual autonomy in the Northwest Territories will likely be somewhat slower than in the Yukon because the Northwest Territories do not have the comparative legislative history and the comparative history of the functional institutions of government that the Yukon has. But one thing that is completely repugnant to any system of democratic government is the idea that bureaucrats should appoint members to sit on a legislative body. There is no earthly reason why the people of the Northwest Territories should not be entitled to elect the whole of the council. But the bureaucrats here in Ottawa say, "If they were all elected members they would be denied the necessary expertise in order to assist the legislative council of the Territories to properly perform its functions." That, Mr. Speaker, makes two assumptions. One is that if bureaucrats do not sit with the council, the members of the council will act improperly. The second is that if bureaucrats do not sit
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts with them, they will be unable to find the necessary expertise from among their own members.
I think both arguments are redundant, because what is to prevent the Northwest Territories Council, if they feel the need of expert advice, asking the government body here in Ottawa, or the department or whatever board or what-have-you, to supply the necessary witness or individual to appear before the council and give that expert advice to them? It is just not good enough to have the bureaucrats appointing members to a legislative body and in the same breath saying this is real progress toward a responsible form of government. That element of the Northwest Territories Act should be altered and there should be an amendment which would permit the people of the Northwest Territories to elect all of the members of their council.
There is one other disturbing feature of this bill. I want to draw this matter specifically to the attention of the minister, although he does not appear to be too interested at the moment. I hope the hon. member for Northwest Territories will forgive this interruption.


John Napier Turner: It is pretty hard to concentrate on your speech.


Erik Nielsen: Sometimes it is difficult to concentrate on what I am saying, but I do not want to be interrupting while they are talking over there. Many times in the past the minister has promised the members of the council, not only here in Ottawa when they visited him but also in Whitehorse when he visited them, that he would consult them on any measure that was going to affect the lives of the people of the Yukon. The latest incident where there was no consultation concerned the granting of a huge timber berth in the Yukon, with the possibility of timber development. As soon as the minister found out that the council had not been consulted, he ordered the whole thing stopped immediately until there was an opportunity to consult them. That is to his credit. But, Mr. Speaker, they have not been consulted on these amendments to the Yukon Act, and I think they will be very put out because they were not consulted. They had a right to be consulted and they had a right to rely on the minister's promise to consult them.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: They came to Ottawa and the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) and I had a long talk with them.

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts Mr. Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, the minister was out of the chamber when I told the House that all members of the delegation met the Prime Minister and the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, but the matters that are the subject of amendments to the Yukon Act were not discussed with the members of the council. The only matter discussed was the instruction that the minister says he is going to give the commissioner to set up an executive committee. There was also mention of the administration of justice, and so on. But surely members of the council had a right to expect these matters to be discussed with them before this bill was placed before us. Now, of course, this means that the committee will have to be persuaded-although I do not think that will be difficult-to have members of the council travel to Ottawa in order to give evidence and to give their views on the bill.
The minister speaks of a task force that will study matters of conservation in the north. He spoke of its composition. On the task force will be five university conservationists, two departmental officials and three officials from oil companies. Mr. Speaker, there is a very active, vigorous knowledgeable Yukon Conservation Society that has been doing good work in the north. It is composed of people who live in the north, who know the north like the back of their hands so far as the Yukon is concerned. I did not hear the minister say that this association had been consulted or that any of these people would be asked to serve on this task force. Again we hear "The great white father knows best for you people up there. We are going to get experts to come up and tell you all about the land that you live in and what recommendations are best for your life in the future." So far as the amendments to the Territorial Lands Act are concerned, I am afraid I cannot regard them as forward-looking. I can only regard them as more power to make more regulations, further to stifle development. In a land of 207,030 square miles, which is the area of the Yukon, trying to buy a 50-foot by 100-foot lot is like to trying to buy the Taj Mahal, and it would take just about as long. To buy a lot on which to build a home in areas outside municipalities, to buy acreage on which to develop a business, is an almost impossible task. Even when the bureaucrats deign to allow you to spend some money on such a purchase, it takes three to six months to get any action, by which time the building season is over and a good deal of commercial opportunity has been lost.

May 13, 1970
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)
Has there been, as the minister says, collaboration with the territorial governments in drawing up these amendments to the Territorial Lands Act? That is what he asked members of the House to believe. I am prepared to say now that the fact is there has not been one whit of consultation with members of the territorial council. When he says there has been consultation with the territorial government, he means that his officials in Ottawa have spoken with his officials in the territories. That is the extent of the consultation. The inference is left that the separate being, the territorial government, is something apart from the minister's function and that the people of the Yukon have been consulted. Nothing could be further from the truth, Mr. Speaker. One bureaucrat here spoke to another bureaucrat there and that is the sum and substance of it.
All in all, I am disappointed with what I see in the amendments contained in Bill C-212. It will be my intention to endeavour to persuade the committee to accept several amendments. One of these will be to increase the size of the council pursuant to the repeated requests of the territorial council. Another will be an amendment to clause 24 to give the members of the council the right to introduce money measures in their own legislative forum, and any consequent amendments with respect thereto that mav be necessary.
Another amendment which I will try to persuade the committee to accept is one which will set up a proper executive committee and will pass to the individual members of that committee and the committee as a whole certain departmental responsibilities, particularly in the field of education-which should be in the hands of the elected representatives and not in the hands of the minister, as it is now-and any other similar amendment with concomitant fiscal powers.
I shall also endeavour to persuade the committee that the idea of having a majority of bureaucrats sitting on an executive committee where two members of the council, to use the words of the minister, are being asked to assess the bureaucrats in the administration of the territorial government is far from the proper concept of a democratic forum. The state is not the master. The people are, and should be, the master. The majority on any executive committee should be of the people, and if any assistance is required it should be required by the bureaucrats and not by the people.
May 13, 1970	COMMONS


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the minister, as I try to do on most occasions. Had I only listened to him I might have been half way convinced that this piece of legislation is the most dramatic move made by any government since the turn of the century. But I have read the bill and so did not come to that conclusion. I am always amazed at the great political production the minister can make out of the presentation of so little. He indicated that because an election is pending in August of this year-the term of office expires then-this House should move quickly to pass this legislation.
The minister has said that the bill does not contain anything additional to what he proclaimed in November of last year when he was in Yellowknife and Whitehorse, so I cannot help wondering why he has delayed its presentation. Why did he not bring this piece of legislation into Parliament earlier? Why did he not say two, three or four months ago, "Here are the proposals we are making. We are making them now because we recognize that the term of office expires in August and we want to do things in a proper, full and democratic way."
It does not say much for the minister's perception of democracy for him to have delayed the introduction of the bill. I can see no reason why it was not brought in earlier. If he had that conception last November and has not altered his mind since, why does he come along now and say to Parliament, "I want you to move quickly because urgency is involved. I want you to rubber-stamp my opinions and take no cognizance of what the people in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon feel about this legislation"? I cannot accept that as being the power way to legislate. In the first place it is unethical for the minister and for the government to, in effect, ask Parliament to impose a set of rules and regulations upon a political institution in this country when we at least give lip service to the concept of democracy. I think this should be rejected by the people in the territories; it should be rejected by the elected members of those councils as being an undemocratic act.


Erik Nielsen: It is.


Frank Howard: I would give no credence whatever to what the appointed members on the council say, because I do not think that people appointed to a legislative body should have the right to express views about democratic institutions. They did not arrive there by the democratic process and
DEBATES	G933
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts have no democratic responsibility to the people over whom they have legislative authority. We cannot in conscience accept the declaration of the minister that all we have to do is give this bill quick passage, rush it through committee, pass it into law and get it proclaimed because there is an exigency involved in the expiration of office in August of this year. The minister and the government are responsible for the delay in bringing this legislation into the House.
I hope that one of two things happen when this bill goes before committee. Firstly, I hope the committee has the opportunity to proceed to the areas involved in order to consult with the people there about the additions and changes suggested, inasmuch as the government has failed to do this. Secondly, I think the committee should meet the elected representatives and anybody else who is willing to come from the Yukon or the Northwest Territories to make representations. Neither the Committee on Indian Affairs and Northern Development nor this Parliament should simply pass measures presented by the minister without the opportunity to reflect upon the considerations, the concern and views of the people who will be affected by the bill. Parliament and the committee should have time to reflect upon proposed changes. The House should not give its endorsement to the position advanced by the minister, or to the bill before us, until this is done. It is true we will have to vote on the bill at some time, but that should not carry with it the concept of endorsing the provisions of the bill in principle or in any of its details.
On the matter of self-government, or government that is responsible to the people, I quote what the minister said on November 12, 1969, in Whitehorse. He said the same thing elsewhere, and I think it is indicative of the narrow position in which he has placed himself or has been placed by the government. I quote from page 3 of his printed remarks, as follows:
In the first place, I believe-and I have said this before-that at the time and for the foreseeable future the granting of provincial status to the Yukon is not a realistic alternative.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)
That carries with it the implication that the minister has only two ideas about self-government, one being provincial status and the other colonial status. The minister wishes to carry on the concept of colonial status and does not support provincial status so far as the Yukon and Northwest Territories are con-
6S34
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts cerned. I am not arguing that point and would not presume to put my views in place of those of people who live in the territories. After all, they are affected. But surely some ground other than one involving colonial or provincial status could be agreed upon and could be a basis on which to found self-government of the territories. Surely there is some area wherein agreement is possible.
Surely there is a possibility of holding meetings and consultations with the people of the territories and their elected representatives, as well as those others on the council, to see whether under the constitution some mutually agreed upon power could be developed within the framework of the British North America Act. I am talking about powers that would be available to and acceptable by the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.
For argument's sake it may well be, because of the distances involved in the territories, because of the sparsity of the population and because of the huge expense of building highways, that even though the British North America Act says the building of highways comes under provincial jurisdiction the building of such highways in the territories should come under the authority of the federal Parliament. But even if you think that is correct, we do not make that sort of determination in an arbitrary manner. That Would not be ethical, morally correct or democratic.
The minister and his officials have talked to the people of the territories. I have been talking of money, and money does not buy people. That is something the minister might consider in some of his other activities. If he were to converse with the people of the territories who are affected he might find that the people of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon would agree to some acceptable powers within the framework of the constitution. But this decision ought not to be arbitrary on the part of the government.
I have talked about highway building. I said that because of the financial considerations involved, the sparsity of the population and the distances in the territories, highway construction might come under federal authority. Other areas could be involved. The minister could discover some of them if he were to-I was about to use the word "consult", but it is clear the minister distrusts the value of consultation with respect to his dealings with Indians-talk to the people of the territories. In any event, I suggest he consult

the Indian people and learn what consultation means. Consultations are necessary if the development of democratic institutions is to go ahead. It would be better if the minister were to consult our Indians instead of giving them the impression that the great white father in Ottawa is imposing his will with respect to various matters being considered.
Within the bill itself is contained a proposed amendment to the Territorial Lands Act which speaks of concern about the ecosystem in the north. It speaks of concern about pollution control, but really this is oriented toward and is designed to regulate economic development, exploration and the finding of mineral and other resources in the area. I consider this matter to be rightfully included in that part of the bill. It is an important part of it. Often there has been mention of the delicacy of the ecosystem in the north. The delicacy of ecological relationships is much greater in the north than it is in southern Canada. Those relationships are different there because of climatic conditions, geography, topography and the like. In southern Canada, because of the more temperate climate, nature can heal its wounds more readily and tolerate destructive influences more readily than in the north. In the north, because of the climate and the delicate ecological balance it is not always possible for nature to repair damage done to her.
I read in an article that in the early 1900's a party of explorers went north and used tracked vehicles. The tracks removed vegetation overcover, which was sparse in any event. Significantly, those tracks are still there some 60 years later. Not only are the tracks there, but because the vegetation was ripped up, because the muskeg had no protection, the tracks left by those vehicles have been turned into trenches by the passage of time, trenches which impede the passage of cariboo and other animals and bar the way to their feeding grounds. These trenches are there 60 or 70 years after the original tracks were imprinted in the area, and so far as I can gather it will be impossible for nature to repair that damage.
In oil and mineral exploration and in the forest industry many tracked vehicles are used and much ground is torn up, to the ultimate disadvantage of animals and people who live in the area. Therefore, the part of the bill relating to the Territorial Lands Act is vitally important. Nevertheless, I do not think it will be very effective in dealing with
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
this situation, because it speaks of establishing land management zones. The criteria with respect to various activities in these land management zones will vary as between one zone and another. There is no over-all directive at the national level with respect to what the general criteria ought to be. This provision reflects the government's attitude, and that attitude is also reflected in the Canada Water Act legislation.
The bill talks of pollution control for the land, but disregards completely pollution control for air, taking no cognizance whatever of pollution coming from noise and the effect this can have upon the terrains ecological structure. We know that in an ecosystem as delicate as the one in the north, an adverse effect on one aspect of the environment has a much greater effect on other aspects of the environment than is the case in southern Canada. I submit that because the government seeks to deal with the matter of pollution on land but ignores pollution of the air, the bill will not be effective in controlling pollution.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)
On May 4 the minister spoke to the Canadian Transportation Research Forum in Winnipeg. The minister made reference to that speech this afternoon. If the minister will listen, I wish to ask him with respect to that speech where the land use regulations are that have been developed. There is no point coming before Parliament and asking for an alteration to the Territorial Lands Act which conceives of having land use regulations. The bill is so sparse in its information about this matter that the full force the minister hopes for will be contained in the regulations. It is unkind to Parliament for the minister to say that the full force of what is to be done will be in the regulations. The minister says, "I have the regulations developed. They are here, but I am not going to tell you what they are". I think it is incumbent upon the minister to disclose those regulations before he asks Parliament to give him a blanket type of endorsement. The minister shakes his head.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I point out to the hon. member-


Frank Howard: I hope the minister is doing this on a point of order, otherwise he will close the debate.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: It is on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The way we proceed, there is legislation. It is only after that-
DEBATES	6935
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. The minister cannot rise to elaborate a point by way of a point of order. He may do that when he closes the debate on second reading.


Frank Howard: I know what the minister was getting at. If anything in Parliament is normal, the minister says the normal course of doing things is to pass the legislation which seeks to give the Governor in Council the right to make regulations. After Parliament does that, the government makes the regulations and says, "Here they are." I do not agree that is the way it should be done, particularly with such an important piece of legislation as this. This bill is not very full in the explanation of what it intends to do.
The full authority given to the Governor in Council to make regulations, and the full value of the minister's concern about environmental or pollution control with respect to land use will be contained in the regulations. The minister says he already has the regulations. Instead of keeping them secret, why does he not tell us what they are? I ask the minister, through Your Honour, why these regulations are being denied to us when they already exist. They have been prepared. This is what Parliament would like to know. I realize it is difficult for the minister to do this. I will gladly yield the floor on another point of order so he can explain why he has not provided us with the existing regulations which are the full force of the legislation.


Mr. Lewis:: Or tell us what is in them.


Frank Howard: The minister chooses to remain silent and uncommunicative on this very important point.


David Lewis: Perhaps he does not know what is in them.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I do not have the right to speak.


John Napier Turner: He will
close the debate.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I do not mind closing the debate.


Gerald William Baldwin: Give the minister unanimous consent to reply.


Frank Howard: There is a chorus of Liberals complaining that the minister cannot get the floor. The minister had the floor. He had the first opportunity. He had unlimited time. Why did he not do it then? If the minis-
May 13, 1970
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts ter wants the floor now, as the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) suggested he need only ask for unanimous consent to have the floor for the purpose of explaining this very important point. I am sure there would be no disagreement by members of the opposition. Could the minister have unanimous consent to explain the regulations?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Gerald William Baldwin: Don't be shy.


Frank Howard: The Minister of Justice should not talk about the minister not being able to get the floor, using that as an argument to deny Parliament information to which it is entitled.


John Napier Turner: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) is having a little logistical fun this afternoon. Of course, any regulations would not become operative until the enabling power, the statute, is passed by Parliament. It would be very presumptuous for the minister to state the regulations before Parliament adopted the enabling statute giving birth to those regulations.


Frank Howard: Replying to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, if it is presumptuous of the minister to make these regulations known to Parliament before the bill is passed, I say it was even more presumptuous for the minister to have made that declaration to a private group outside of Parliament.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Frank Howard: The minister had no right to do that. That is even more insulting than what the Minister of Justice conceives it would be for the minister to do so today. I think the picture is clear. The minister has these regulations. They have been developed and the minister knows what they are. For some unknown reason the minister refuses to take Parliament into his confidence.


David Lewis: Maybe he is ashamed of them.


Frank Howard: I have never known the minister to be ashamed of anything he has done so far.


David Lewis: He should have been.


Frank Howard: Why should he start now? In any event, these regulations do exist. Although they have been developed, they are kept as a secret document. This is the traditional Liberal attitude.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I implement some of your ideas, and then you deny them.


John Napier Turner: Those are the weak parts of the bill.


Frank Howard: The minister may implement some of the ideas but he always leaves out the crucial and important parts. The minister seeks support from around the country. He always chooses the minority view to support him. He does that all the time. He refuses to accept the view of the majority where it is limited-


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The Indians from Skeena.


Frank Howard: If the minister
thinks that the Niska tribe council comprises all the Indians in Skeena, he is wrong. He is also wrong in his geography. If this is so, he should be replaced. He does not know what goes on in that territory.


John Napier Turner: We get our
support every four years.


Frank Howard: Out of a quarter of a million people the minister chooses the views of 1,000 people and says that is the view that will prevail. The minister supports the minority view of the 1,000 and completely disregards the overwhelming majority rejection of his concepts.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out to the hon. member that he is completely out of order. I will not take the time of this House to read what he has said in the House of Commons about the Indian policy. He said it was his own idea.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. I would point out that the minister is also out of order. Having said that, possibly we could return to the bill before the House.


David Lewis: You can steal his ideas, but not his time.


Frank Howard: If the minister had not dragged us into the question of what is representative among the Indian people in Skeena, we would not have gotten into that subject. In his informative address to the Canadian Transportation Research Forum the minister disclosed many matters that he refuses to disclose to Parliament. He made reference to the Arctic land use research program which in its shortened form is referred
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
to as ALUR. On page 7 of the minister's speech we read:
It was evident that we needed a comprehensive, mission-oriented research program dealing with northern land use problems-
There is a companion part to this. The minister today referred to the task force. At page 9 the minister's speech reads:
A task force of noted conservationists and scientists has been formed by my department to undertake a trip to this region.


Erik Nielsen: Everybody but northerners.


Frank Howard: The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) said the task force includes everybody but northerners. The committee does not include those who know what they are talking about. The minister said that two of these experts will be senior resource officials from the department. I know they are experts or they would not be in his department. The minister does not disagree that they are experts and are knowledgeable. The minister also intends to have one representative each from Imperial Oil, Shell Oil and Gulf Oil. There is a group which really will be interested in environmental control!
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Keep on reading.


Frank Howard: I am reading. Don't be impatient. I wish the minister had been as impatient a short while ago with respect to the land use regulations which he is concealing. Other members are to be Gavin Henderson, executive director of the National and Provincial Parks Association of Canada-I wish the government would listen to this association when it comes to action concerning the national parks; we would be a lot better off if it did-Richard Passmore, executive director of the Canadian Wildlife Federation; J. C. Ritchie, professor of botany at Dalhousie University; J. D. H. Lambert, professor of botany at Carleton University, and William Fuller, professor of zoology at the University of Alberta.
I do not doubt, Mr. Speaker, that these gentlemen are intelligent. I do not discount this at all. But I should have thought it was fundamental, in dealing with areas in which people live, to pay some attention to what the people who live there know about them. You can have all the doctors, scientists, university professors, zoologists and any other kind of "gists" you like, going from southern to northern Canada-the sum total of what they know or will discover will not equal the
DEBATES	6937
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts knowledge of one Eskimo on those matters. Why don't you appoint an Eskimo to your research team-not in a subordinate capacity but as an actual member of the team? Why don't you pay some attention to these people?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I invite the hon. member to address his remarks to the Chair.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member should be here once in a while to follow what is being done. I said last week that I had asked the territorial council to take up this question of the representation of local people. Now, it seems, the hon. member would like me to impose my authority on the council. He should bear in mind that I have asked the territorial government to seek the advice of local people.


Frank Howard: I know now why the
minister was taken into the cabinet; he talks with two voices and two faces. The point is that you have a task force set up, and the minister has ignored completely the people who live in the area and who are most familiar with the conditions there. That is the point. No matter what relationship the minister has with the territorial council, the fact is that he has taken outsiders into the north and said, "Consult with anybody you like, especially those recommended by this group or that group, and then come back and tell the great white father what should be done about the situation." Further on, to give an indication of the minister's concept of priorities, he said at page 12:
Our policies are designed to encourage the orderly development of our northern resources to benefit all Canadians and particularly native northerners.
I don't know how many words are in this speech. There are 16 pages of declarations about what is to take place in the north, and there are three lines which refer to native northerners. It is almost as though the minister was preparing a political pamphlet which had to say something about the native population because they were voters, or something of that sort. He talks about concern for the native people of the area, the people who were born and raised there; yet when it comes to doing something worth while, nothing happens.
We have invested $23 million in Panarctic Oil-45 per cent of it, in any event. There is a tremendous amount of exploration going on in the area. How many native people are working for Panarctic? Duncan Pryde, an
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts elected member of the Northwest Territories Council, said in January there were six Eskimo people working for this company in which Canadians have invested $23 million or $26 million. Somewhere in the back of my mind I recall setting information, subsequent to that statement by Mr. Pryde, that there were two Eskimo or Indian people working for Panarctic Oil. Surely, when we remember that 40 per cent of the population is native to this area, we can do better than that when it comes to a question of public policy.
We know what the statistical information is. Statistics do not always reflect what people are. But we know, for instance, that the native population of the area, comprising some 40 per cent of the total population, is at the absolute bottom level when it comes to income. The average income is $400 or $500 a year, something of that sort. We also know, again statistically, that the non-native population working in the area receive incomes which are much higher than the national average of non-native people in the rest of Canada. So the disparity is even greater than might first appear to be the case. The minister makes a passing comment to indicate his concern about these matters.
To indicate that these are not simply views of mine hauled out of the air for the purpose of making a declamatory statement which might appeal to somebody, perhaps I might read a statement contained in an article in the Toronto Daily Star of January 15 attributed to a gentleman named Simonie who lives on Baffin Island and is an elected member of the Northwest Territories Council. I had better read it all. This is a Canadian Press story from Yellowknife:
Oil exploration in the Arctic should be halted or at least slowed down, an Eskimo member of the Northwest Territories Council said yesterday.
Simonie of Baffin Island, elected member for the eastern Arctic, said the possibility of oil discoveries threatens the existence of the Eskimo and the wildlife upon which their survival depends.
Eskimos, he said, are concerned about tankers taking oil from the Arctic. A tanker cracked by a collision with ice could release a slick that would kill wildlife for miles around.
"I know starvation is coming. But we're not ready for this yet. They don't care about animals. All they think about is taking oil from the ground." Simonie said southern Canadians viewed the voyage of the S.S. Manhattan through the Northwest Passage last fall as a great achievement, but to the Eskimo "that ship is no good."
He called for restraint in exploration until less hazardous ways of moving oil south are found.
While he related his observations to the Manhattan and the oil, he was really talking 
in a much larger context; he was expressing the concern which the Eskimos felt for their very livelihood. The minister in his earlier statement and again in his statement today said he believes he can develop some rules, some procedures which will be acceptable both to the exploiters and to the people living in the area, some regulations which will be compatible with the concept of profit-oriented oil or mineral groups and the maintenance of an ecological balance, some system within which industrial development and environmental control will be compatible. He further stated that if such rules and regulations were not acceptable to all concerned, the government would not hesitate to assume its responsibility. This sounds fine, but I wonder why the minister did not go further and tell us what he conceived his responsibility to be. Is it a responsibility oriented toward industrial development? Is it a responsibility oriented toward finding and extracting oil and minerals? Or is it a responsibility which is oriented toward the people, toward preservation, toward conservation?
I think it is significant that the minister stopped short when he made his declaration. His silence indicates to me that his concern in the field of environmental control is not very strong, though it should be because he above all, by virtue of his position in the cabinet, is the person charged with responsibility for protecting the rights, the freedom and the ethical position of the people in this region. So far the minister has indicated that his concern for these rights is extremely shallow. This is illustrated by the position he has taken in relation to the political structure in the territories. If that is an indication of his true concern-and it also shows up in his approach to the environmental question- then I very much fear for the north.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)


Mr. Rene Matte (Champlain):: Mr. Speaker, as the bill before the House has just been tabled, I admit having studied it only very summarily while listening to the members who preceded me.
On the other hand, I must also confess that I rely on the good faith of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) who, to my mind, is making praiseworthy efforts towards accomplishing something in his department.
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
However, one should point out some of the failings which can be seen at first glance when reading this bill.
As pointed out by those who spoke before, the bill does not insist sufficiently on the necessity of consulting the Eskimos and the Indians. It is easy to say that all the legislation passed by the government are directed towards the emancipation and fulfilment of the native people of the North, but, often, if not always, that objective has unfortunately not been achieved. Perhaps is it that sufficient attention has not been given this subject.
In addition, this bill seems to impose upon the territories an absolute authority which could easily smack of colonialism, which phenomenon everyone wants to see disappear, notably in our country.
Indeed, the authority of the governor in council can lead to abuses as regards appointments. Even if some members of the committee are elected, the fact remains that their election can be cancelled any time. That reminds us of the old systems that everybody wants to abolish nowadays.
There is a third point which is not given enough thought, namely bilingualism. In fact, this is a federal authority. Since the federal government recognizes bilingualism, I am surprised to see that this bill contains no provision to guarantee one way or another the right to bilingualism. Some may say that there are very few French-speaking people in those areas, but a few years from now there may be a sufficient number to prompt the government to establish right now a bilingual system. And even if there were only a few French-speaking residents, I believe that under the definition itself of Canada and of federalism-people boast so much about it in Quebec at the present time-any law reform or any establishment of new systems should be coupled with the creation of genuine bilingualism.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member is referring to something that calls for a clarification, I think.
He should know perhaps that since September, courses have been given in French in the first grade in the Yukon territory, which is not the case anywhere else in Canada.


René Matte: Mr. Speaker, French courses can be given everywhere, even in the United States. But does not necessarily change the basis itself of the system and in any event, if efforts are made in that direction, I can but 22375-21J
DEBATES	6939
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts be happy about it. However, I wish to point out that the hazards of anglicization are to be avoided.
We have already witnessed, when the federal government had complete jurisdiction over northern Quebec, that its main action was to anglicize the people, even though, inprinciple, they were French-speaking.
Mr. Speaker, the few deficiencies which I point out lead me to commend the minister in connection with the second part of the bill, namely clauses 24 and the following, which relate to the Territorial Lands Act. In my opinion, this legislation comes at an appropriate time, because the moment had come for us to ensure that we actually posses the vast northern expanses, and that we exercize control over their development.
Clause 24(3)(c) of the bill reads as follows:
(1)	Every person who
(a)	violates any regulation made pursuant to section 3b, or
(b)	fails to comply with any term or condition of a permit issued pursuant to such regulations is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars.
(2)	Where an offence under subsection (1) is committed on more than one day or is continued for more than one day, it shall be deemed to be a separate offence for each day on which the offence is committed.
I am quite willing to agree that penalties are provided for those who would violate the legislation, but I wonder what $5,000 mean to multi-millionaire American companies which are quite capable of paying $5,000 per day, since they make daily profits of several million dollars. I wonder whether we could not make the situation clearer by stating in an even more categorical fashion the inviolability of our territory in the North.
I believe that the efforts made by the department to solve all those problems should be considered and even commended. I hope that in the course of the discussion, worthwhile amendments might be moved with a view to improving the substance of the bill. Above all, I hope that the minister will consider favourably any suggestion to make this legislation a better one.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I want to rise to deal with those aspects of the bill which relate to the administration of justice in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. I do not intend to
May 13, 1970
6940	COMMONS DEBATES
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts
refer to those clauses in the bill that relate to the administration of justice, namely, clauses 6, 11, 17 and 22, other than to state that my remarks are confined mainly to those aspects of reform contained in the bill introduced by my colleague, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien).
A year ago in April when I was in Whitehorse and Yellowknife prior to embarking on a circuit with Mr. Justice William Morrow into the eastern Arctic, I had discussions with the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories and with the legal adviser of the Commissioner of the Yukon Territory. I had a meeting with the select committee on justice of the Yukon Territorial Council which consists of three elected members of that council. I had informal discussions in Yellowknife with members of the Territorial Council of the Northwest Territories. In both Whitehorse and Yellowknife I had the occasion also to hold informal discussions with members of the Bar of the Yukon Territory and the Bar of the Northwest Territories. I am sorry the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) is not in his seat to hear me thank him once again for having sponsored me as a member of the Yukon Bar when I was in Whitehorse. By virtue of the statutes delimiting the duties of my department I happen as well to be the Attorney General of the Northwest Territories and the Attorney General of the Yukon, and it is that capacity that I am addressing myself to this bill.
Subsequent to those visits and to active and meaningful consultation with the elected representatives of both territorial councils, I announced in Whitehorse and Yellowknife on November 20 last that the government intended to propose to the territorial governments a transfer of certain matters relating to the administration of justice from the government of Canada. These proposals related to and followed very closely the various studies made on the governments of the two territories, and notably the report of the advisory 'committee on the development of the Northwest Territories which was commissioned in 1965 and which was known as the Carrothers Commission. The Chairman was Dean Carrothers of the University of Western Ontario law school. The two other members of the commission were Jean Beetz, then associate dean of law at the University of Montreal, and John Parker who was then mayor of Yellowknife and is now deputy commissioner of the Northwest Territories. That commis-IMr. Turner (Ottawa-Carleton).]
sion recommended that territorial governments assume more control over local judicial affairs.
I believe that the proposals I made in November, which are reflected in the bill, in large measure meet the recommendations of the Carrothers Commission and of the studies that preceded it. I believe that those proposals that are reflected now in this bill and which fulfil the commitment that I made to both territorial councils constitute a step which will bring the administration of the law closer to the citizens in the territories. They are designed to give our northern citizens, through their elected representatives and through their appointed officials now resident both in Whitehorse and Yellowknife, a much fuller and more complete responsibility in the administration of local legal affairs.
What this bill does, in fulfilment of the proposals which I announced in November and of the commitment I made to the people of both territories, is to transfer the administration of criminal and civil justice from Ottawa to the territories, except for two fundamental points. First, the appointment of the judges of the territorial courts of the Northwest Territories and of the Yukon remains vested in the federal government pursuant to article 96 of the BNA Act, similar to the appointment of high court judges of the provincial courts. So there is no transfer of the appointment of the territorial judges to the territories. The second reservation is that the institution of criminal proceedings under the Criminal Code of Canada remains with the Attorney General of Canada in his capacity as Attorney General of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.


Gerald William Baldwin: May I ask the minister a question for clarification? I was going to mention it later, but this might save me referring to it later. Does the change involve the right on the part of the commissioner in council under territorial authority to appoint the territorial magistrates?


John Napier Turner: Yes, it does. The appointment of magistrates will lie with the commissioner in council. Representations were made to me, both in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, for the transfer of the institution of criminal proceedings-in other words, the transfer of the role of the Attorney General-to the territories. I said both in Whitehorse and Yellowknife that I did not consider that to be possible at this stage in the growth of responsible government in
May 13, 1970

the territories. I felt it very important, and I still feel it essential, that the person who has the ultimate responsibility for initiating prosecutions under the Criminal Code remain responsible to Parliament or to a legislature, in other words, remain responsible to the elected representatives of the people in the jurisdiction in which he administers that criminal justice.
At this stage it is obvious that there is not in the territories a fully responsible government wherein a cabinet or an executive is responsible to a territorial council or a legislature. If a person in the territories were to institute criminal prosecution he would not be directly responsible by way of a want of confidence motion or by way of censure to either of the territorial councils as an Attorney General of a province is responsible to a legislature or as I am responsible to the Parliament of this country.
However, I did designate an assistant deputy minister with special responsibilities for the administration of justice in the north, reporting directly to the deputy minister and through him to me. We did appoint agents of the Attorney General of Canada, in his capacity as Attorney General of each of the territories, at Whitehorse and in Yellowknife. We did provide for the appointment of deputy judges to each of the territorial judges. We did broaden the support given to the magistrates by appointing deputy magistrates to each of the territories, who can be called in by the magistrate or by the judge to relieve an unduly heavy criminal load which may arise from time to time.
Short of these two reservations, namely, the appointment of the two territorial judges and the institution of criminal proceedings under the Criminal Code, the administration of justice will effectively be transferred by this bill to the people of the north. That includes, among other things, the appointment and payment of judicial officers, except judges of the territorial courts, the constitution of courts having civil as well as criminal jurisdiction, the provision and maintenance of the necessary personnel and physical plant for the efficient administration of justice and the functioning of the judicial system, and the provision of complete legal services to each of the commissioners, the territorial councils, and the several departments of territorial governments. All of that is being transferred in this bill to the territories.

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts [DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
As I said in my opening remarks, I believe that the provisions of the bill relating to the administration of justice will serve to bring the law closer to the people. I believe the administration of justice must reflect the local customs and aspirations and everyday lives of the people affected by that administration. I had the honour to serve for 2J years as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and National Resources, now the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Laing). I remember that one of his favourite phrases was that government should be on the ground and remain close to the people. I believe that this bill reflects a growing movement toward responsible government in the territories.
I think that the impetus given to resource development, to education, health and housing and to the bringing of our native peoples into the mainstream of Canadian life within these territories-all of this achieved by the present and the previous government within the last seven years-is to the credit of the Canadian people. I am not saying that the process is by any means completed. I am not saying that the situation is entirely satisfactory. I think that the interest this Parliament has given to the issue of sovereignty in the north, to the issue of effective control over our northern territories and over our northern seas, the interest and the commitment of the Canadian people, represented in this Parliament in the legislation which the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development recently introduced, and the fact that the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) of this country in the short term he has been Prime Minister has already visited the north on three separate occasions, indicate a particular interest, a particular commitment of this government, on behalf of the Canadian people, toward those territories which, as my colleague said earlier, represent over 1,300,000 square miles, some 40 per cent of the Canadian land mass but more particularly toward those 40,000 people who live as Canadians north of 60.
I believe that this Parliament and the people of Canada consider our north to be a distinctive asset, something that distinguishes us from the United States, something that gives us a perspective entirely different from that of the United States, a perspective which is rather unique. If we look at the map of the world with the North Pole in the centre we get an entirely different perspective of the geographical reflection of the world. We see that Canada and the Soviet Union together
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts occupy about 90 per cent of the territories north of 60. We see world neighbourhood in a different way. We see the problem of water and pollution, the problem of wildlife and the problem of resource development in a different way.
I hope to be able to get up to the Northwest Territories in this centennial year. As I said earlier, I had an opportunity of being there on business on behalf of the Department of Justice last year, and then during the summer I went with my good friend, the hon. member for Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange), on a fishing trip at Great Bear Lake, Great Slave Lake and at Coppermine during our holidays. I hope centennial year will give me another legitimate reason to be there.
To me this bill represents continued progress toward responsible government, toward eventual self-government, toward a day when northerners will be governed by northerners. I have always thought that the Department of Northern affairs, as it used to be called, now the Department of Northern Development, will be doing a good job if it puts itself out of a job. The faster it puts itself out of a job, the better a job it will be doing. That, Mr. Speaker, is my contribution this afternoon.


Frank Howard: May I direct a question to the minister before he formally concludes his remarks and his seat? I forget who it was who said you can judge the extent of a civilization by looking into its prisons. Part of the purpose of this bill is to give to the commissioner in council authority to make regulations with respect to public and reformatory prisons in and for the territories. Does the minister have any knowledge of what is conceived in this regard, what are the plans, for how many, where, what size and what cost? Can he also speak of the rehabilitative aspect?


John Napier Turner: I do not
want to presume to speak on the behalf of the Solicitor General (Mr. Mcllraith), but as mentioned in the bill there is to be a new correctional program administered by the territories. I think that might properly be a question which the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) would want to put to the minister at committee stage, but he is perfectly correct in pointing out that the establishment, maintenance and regulation of public and reformatory prisons in and for the territories by virtue of this bill are transferred to the territories. I think it would be perfectly relevant for him to put this question at committee stage.
[Mr. Turner (Ottawa-Carleton) .3


Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, I shall not keep the House too long on this matter but I feel that one or two things still need to be said. I was glad to hear those last words of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner), because for 12 or 13 years in this House I have been talking about the north, about what needs to be done there, about what can be done there, but saying sadly how little has been done there since the time, over a third of a century ago, that I first went into the Northwest Territories when Yellowknife was still a gleam in the eyes of some prospector.


John Napier Turner: The hon. member was there when he and I both had a gleam in our eyes from the spike marking the completion of the railway.


Gerald William Baldwin: That reminds me that there was a brief flurry of activity during the years 1960 to 1962. But there still remains a feeling on the part of many people in the north that words are being spoken in Ottawa and are not being accompanied by actions. I am an eternal optimist. I hear these words and I hope that some day the actions will follow.


John Napier Turner: They are right in front of your nose.


Gerald William Baldwin: If I were living in the north, I would leave it right away because there is very little in the bill but promises. We have very promising ministers but, Mr. Speaker, this is the trouble we face. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) makes a speech in Winnipeg and then there is a period of ministerial gestation. After seven months have elapsed the minister and his advisers get together and they say, "You, sir, made a speech in Winnipeg"-actually, I think in this case the speech was made in November at both Yellowknife and Whitehorse-"and having made the speech it looks good, so let us follow it with a bill. In enacting the bill we will do as little as we can, but we will in fact do something which will indicate that the speech you made seven months ago is now going to be consummated, but to a very limited extent."
A short while ago in this House we were talking about the regulations which are to flow from the enactment of the clauses of the bill dealing with the Territorial Lands Act. Despite what the Minister of Justice said, there is no reason at all, there is no rule of practice or of precedent, no tradition which prohibits the government and the minister
May 13, 1970	COMMONS DEBATES
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts
from coming into the House and saying, Minister. He said he did not know anything ''Here are the regulations. Admittedly, they about the matter but would look into it. cannot become law until the bill has become At that time the hon. member for Skeena law. We cannot promulgate them, we cannot pointed out that under the terms of reference
enact them, but here they are. As an inducement to persuade members that this is a good bill with good clauses in it, here are the types of regulations we propose to enact." I think it is a very poor excuse to say that it is not right, it is not proper to indicate what the regulations are until the bill has been passed. That is utter nonsense. We have had too much of it.
We have the situation where I have asked the minister in this House, where the right hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefen-baker) has asked the minister, where the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard) has asked the minister, what about the land claims of people in the northern part of Canada, in particular the people in northern Quebec but also the people in the other northern territories? What is going to be done about the honest, legitimate claims these people have to the lands and resources of this great country? What compensation will be offered to them for the taking of those lands and resources? We all know that during the latter part of the last century and the early part of this century commissioners were sent to the area between the Great Lakes and the Rocky Mountains to obtain treaties from the Indian people in order to secure the title of the government and the people of Canada to these lands. These treaties were accompanied by certain undertakings made by the commissioners on behalf of the people of Canada. I am not going to get into the question of the extent to which these treaties have been broken, although we all know that they were broken. Absolutely nothing has been done since then, as far as the native people in the Northwest Territories are concerned, save some in the Mackenzie River area.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
Just the other day I asked the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development about the people in Quebec. I am not using this as an illustration but it is the sort of thing we hear when we speak of these great promises. The minister replied that he would see that this question got to the commissioner who has been established under the appropriate legislation to inquire into the matter. It appears that the commissioner reports to the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau), and because he was not here I asked the Acting Prime
there is absolutely no authority for the commissioner to deal with treaty rights in the Northwest Territories or Quebec or to deal with the question of claims of Indians and Eskimos to compensation for the lands and resources taken by the people and the governments of Canada. This is the kind of thing which fails to persuade me that this government is sincere in its intention to so something for the people of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.
Mr. Speaker, I have looked at a number of the recommendations of the Carrothers Commission report. It is absolutely incorrect for the Minister of Justice-although he did restrict himself to questions dealing with the administration of justice in the territories-or the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to suggest that there has been any substantial compliance with the major recommendations of this report.
Where, Mr. Speaker, is the executive council? In this bill there is provision for the appointment of certain people to act, but there is no legislative acceptance of the principle of an executive council with specific duties, with specific individuals charged with the administration of certain areas of government responsibility. The Carrothers Commission strongly suggested that in this halfway-house between territorial status and provincial status the name of the legislative body should be changed to "legislative assembly." This has been requested, and what harm would it have done? Why should not the Council of the Northwest Territories be the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories, and the Council of the Yukon be the Legislative Assembly of the Yukon?
What about the question of economic development? This is a very sad, difficult and serious problem. In a press release dated March 31, 1970, the minister stated with some pride:
The territorial administration will have grown from less than 100 persons when it moved to Yellowknife in 1967 to about 1,700 after the eastern Arctic transfer.
I say "shades of Parkinson" when I read that, Mr. Speaker. In any event, of the nonIndian and non-Eskimo people in the Northwest Territories 1,700 plus their wives and dependents are government people and a very substantial number are employed by large
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts corporations and companies in the territories. As I see it, there is not much opportunity for individuals from the southern part of Canada to carve out a career and a future in the Northwest Territories. I think the situation has probably grown worse rather than better since 1966 when the Carrothers Commission stated at page 172 of volume I:
It is a cold statistic that the average income of the Indian and Eskimo is one-sixth that of the national average, that the infant mortality rate is more than four times the national average, that the life expectancy of those who survive infancy is decades shorter than that of the white man, that the per cent of the uneducated element in the labour force, mainly Indians and Eskimos, is 24 times higher than the national average. These statements are a translation into impersonal statistics of packingcase houses, of tents and igloos, of primitive sanitation and bad water, of pernicious illness, of persistent coughing, of infants' coffins, of young men languishing in unemployment, of increase in juvenile delinquency (an inheritance from the urban world of the white man), of a demand for greater police services stemming, to a large degree, from a liquor problem that may itself be an adjunct of unemployment and other indicia of depression and demoralization.
That was a plain and blunt comment on the facts of life in the Northwest Territories. I have seen them. Forty years ago I made a trip into the northland on a river boat with a judicial party, and there was evidence then of a serious crisis as far as illness was concerned. Nevertheless, the native people stood tall and high. They were able to make a living by trapping and had a degree of independence which does not exist today. In the period of 40 years I have seen nothing to indicate that the civilization of the white man has done anything for them, nor is there any promise of it in this pitiful legislation.
In light of those facts, what was recommended in the Carrothers Commission report? It pointed out what was said by the Economic Council of Canada about the urgent need to make available additional financial resources to the government of the lower-income areas of the country, and it recommended that "there be a department of economic development and finance within the territorial government". Government supporters may say this recommendation has been met in part by this bill and previous bills. I say, "nonsense, it is not so." The report continues, at page 176:
(2)	initially the secretary of economic development and finance be the commissioner of the Northwest Territories:
(3)	there be created a Northwest Territories Development Board composed of representatives of federal and territorial government administrations and the Economic Council of Canada;

DEBATES	May 13, 1970
(4)	there be established a Northwest Territories Development Corporation; and
(5)	there be regional economic planning, and a close co-ordination of federal and territorial governmental economic activities in the Northwest Territories.
And so on. One of the major factors would be the establishment of a Northwest Territories Development Corporation. I do not want to call up shades of the languishing Canada Development Corporation, but there is no doubt that capital is desperately required to provide a substantial foundation for the devel-opmen.t of the type of industry and economic activities which would persuade our young people to go north and make a contribution there. In the Soviet Union there has been a great deal of this activity. The carrot, so to speak, which the Soviet Union uses to entice young people to northern Siberia is certain types of opportunities not available in other parts of the Soviet Union. But that does not occur in the Northwest Territories. Apparently those who administer the affairs of the territories could not care less about this.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)
What a wonderful opportunity there would be if our young people who today are frustrated, worried and undecided about the kind of world we are making for them, could go to the north and make that contribution which is so essential and which needs to be made by young people who have something to offer. But the bill does not mention that at all. Nothing has been said about this in the speeches which have been made. I give the minister credit for being interested in the north. Although I have not made as many trips to the north recently as I should have liked, I think he will agree when I say that there is tremendous opportunity for our young people to go in and make a contribution so that the northern part of Canada will become what it should be, a great resource development area where liaison between north and south will contribute to the welfare of this country.
This will require money, because it cannot be done without funds. I know that not many people live there, but we must get them there. We talk much about pollution. Today the hon. member for Skeena talked about pollution. As our population concentrates more and more in the large metropolitan areas, the dangers of pollution become greater. When large numbers of people are concentrated in small land areas, the dangers of pollution are greatest. There are great advantages to decentralizing our population in the
May 13, 1970	COMMONS
north. If industry were decentralized and placed in the north there would be less danger of pollution from large concentrations of population.
I continue quoting from the Carrothers report. On page 180 is found the following:
The Hedlin-Menzies report recommends the establishment of a fund of $50,000,000 divided into a special fund of $20,000,000 as a "catch-up" fund for programs in such matters as housing, schools and medical centres, and a development fund of $30,000,000 to be expended over a period of time.
That was brought in four years ago. I do not suppose, in view of the lack of success of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) in controlling inflation, that the amounts of money mentioned would today be adequate.


Mr. Orange:: Roads to the extent of $40 million have been built in the last four years.


Gerald William Baldwin: If this country is ever to amount to anything, the area must have a solid underpinning of people who are entrepreneurs. True, we must build roads, landing strips, harbours and improve river facilities. I think all these things will be done. We do not know what will be the future of the north; neither do we know what will be the future of the Manhattan and the Humble Oil Company's ventures. Of course, proper precautions against damage ought to be taken, but much of the oil from that area may come down from the Mackenzie like an arrow through the northern part of Alberta to the very heart of this continent. It may be more expensive to bring oil down this way. Taking it through the Northwest Passage may be cheaper, although this is doubtful at present.
Whatever the ultimate route may be, I suggest that the route I spoke of is one of the most logical which could be followed. That will bring great opportunities but also great responsibilities for this government and the people of the north. We must take people from the southern part of Canada to the north so that they can provide the fabric so necessary for the area's economic expansion.
I will not go through all the recommendations of the Carrothers Commission report. The report was brought down four years ago and the government is still far behind in the implementation of many of its recommendations. Because conditions have altered in the meantime, many of those recommendations are probably out of date. If the commission were reporting today I have no doubt that it would bring in even more substantial recommendations. What has been done about the suggestion to establish a land title office in 22375-22
DEBATES	6945
Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts the Northwest Territories and the Yukon? As a former member of the Bar who knows something of the problems facing people who have to search titles, I submit that that was a very sensible recommendation by the Carrothers Commission. Perhaps the minister can say why it was not implemented. Is an alternative method of land registration being considered? Will other offices be opened to take the place of the land title offices? At any rate, that recommendation has been ignored up to the present.
I know from my discussions with members of the territorial council of the Northwest Territories-I have not discussed this matter with councillors from the Yukon-that the people of the area will not be happy with what is being done here. This measure is a move in the right direction but it is merely a token move to bring about improvements and changes. The people of the area will not accept it as being adequate, particularly in light of what was said by the Carrothers Commission and what the people themselves have been led to believe they are entitled to. Even if the bill were to pass, I suggest to the minister that he cannot sit down and say, "We can forget about this report and put it in the drawer, and we can forget about the Northwest Territories."
We must create continuing and urgent concern in the north if we are to make use of the resources of that country in a sensible, logical and proper way to a greater extent than heretofore. The government must tell the story of the north to southern Canada. That is where it must be told. The development program must be sold to the people of the south. If it is not, I very much fear that the kind of development which the people in the country have been led to believe will take place in the north will not take place in our time.
I have not been as critical of the minister as I might have been, but I urge him not to lose sight of this fact: our future as a northern country is tied inextricably to the development of our north. It will not be long before transport between this continent and Europe will be carried out by flying across the Arctic. There will have to be discussions between the Arctic countries, the Soviet Union, the United States, Canada and the Scandinavian countries, not only on pollution control which the United States has proposed but about issues involving the utilization of this tremendous area in the northern part of the globe. I urge the minister to use all his resourcefulness with his colleagues to ensure
May 13, 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts that what I have suggested will be done, because if they are not done I gravely fear for the future of the northern part of our continent.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: Mr. Speaker, keeping an eye on the clock I should like to say a few words this evening and, hopefully, later about this most important piece of legislation affecting northern Canada.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
We welcome this bill, Mr. Speaker. We welcome the fact that the government has moved according to schedule in bringing these most important amendments relating to the future of the councils of the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories prior to the forthcoming elections which are to be held later this year in both territories. We see that the amendments will provide, in the case of the Northwest Territories, an increased council and a reduction in the number of appointed members. They will give a number of powers to the council which the council has not had up to this point.
I wish to congratulate the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner). I welcome his participation in the movement of more responsibility into northern Canada. We welcome his initiatives which started a year ago last April, as he said earlier, in bringing the administration of justice and all its related functions closer to the people in the north. The fact that justices of the peace will now be appointed by the commissioner in consultation with his officials, and no longer by recommendation, is most welcome. It was tedious and laborious to come all the way to Ottawa to have their appointments dealt with by the cabinet. In consequence, delays of many months were caused in the appointment of these junior judicial officials in the territories. I think these initiatives will be welcomed in the north.
The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) has introduced a number of amendments to the Territorial Lands Act. I believe that this initiative is long overdue. However, in view of the great surge of economic and resource development throughout northern Canada in this day and age, I believe that the kind of ideas the minister has to protect the sensitive environment of the north to ensure that the ecology of northern Canada is not affected by resource development is something that will

be welcomed by conservationists throughout Canada, Canadians generally and northern people particularly.
Too long in the past we have watched man's effect on the environment as he has searched for the riches of the earth. We have seen trails across the tundra, the damming of creeks and the change of the environment, ecology and geography. We have wondered when man would be intelligent or smart enough to take some strong action to ensure that these sensitive areas of our country are protected for eternity. The minister has not as yet indicated what the regulations will be. However, if we read the proposed amendments in this bill we will see that the regulations should do the kind of job that all of us expect. I hope there will be the kind of land management, if I may use that term, that will protect, quoting from the bill-
-the ecological balance or physical characteristics of any area, set apart and appropriate any territorial lands in that area as a land management) zone.
In fairness to the mineral resource companies which have wandered through the north for the past 100 years, I suggest that they have protected the environment to the best of their ability within the regulations set down by the government. I hope that when the minister is discussing some of these aspects before the committee he will take a look at the staking and other regulations which of necessity at the moment require a disturbance of the physical characteristics of the area where work is being done.
The proposed amendments affecting the councils of the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories have gone reasonably far. However, as I have said before in this House and in other places, I am concerned about two particular aspects. I congratulate the minister on increasing the number of elected members on the Northwest Territories Council from two to three. In November the minister said there would be two, and in May he said there would be three. On third reading I hope the minister will agree with the amendment which will be proposed to increase to four the number of elected members.
I hope that in the process of our discussions in committee we will come to some agreement and find a way around this dilemma of the Ottawa establishment being concerned about giving too much responsibility to the councils, and the dilemma of the councils being too concerned about wanting to be more involved
May 13, 1970

in their own affairs. What has happened in the past, in terms of transferring responsibility from the federal government to the territorial government, has been good. This government has acted fast and with decision following the publication of the Carrothers report. However, Mr. Speaker, regardless of the action which has been taken there is still one central, key issue. Somehow or other a means must be determined to give the elected members of both territories a viable say in the administration of their own affairs. The minister has indicated on a number of occasions that it is within his jurisdiction to establish executive councils and standing committees.
I will not argue with the minister about this. However, I am concerned, as are members of the councils, that the minister is torn between the natural reluctance of the people within his own department who advise him and the impatience of the members of both territorial councils. To my mind this is the central issue. We must and will face this issue in committee, that is, how to involve the elected members of the two councils in those things, as the minister said, which affect the quality of life-education, social development, local government, engineering and all those other functions which are properly and rightly the responsibility of the commissioner and the councils.
Having been an observer of the scene for a number of years, I believe that the commissioner and the public servants in the territorial government are to be congratulated on the manner in which they are accepting their responsibilities. They act with haste. They act with decision. And they are bringing, in my view, the real role of government to the people of the north who may not have had it when the federal administration was there.
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)
On the first day of April this past year I had the privilege of being in the community of Tuktoyaktuk, a small Eskimo comunity on the Beaufort Sea which has been the terminus-
Royal Assent


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is your terminus.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the House went up to the Senate chamber.
[DOT] (6:00 p.m.)
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the House that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act to amend the Canada Shipping Act.
An act to establish the International Development Research Centre.
An act respecting the sale and importation oi certain radiation emitting devices.
An act to amend the Yukon Placer Mining Act.

Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, for the record may I ask the minister the business for tomorrow, so that it will be known to all hon. members.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we will start with the second reading of the Excise Act. After that we will return to the bill under debate this afternoon, concerning the Yukon and Northwest Territories. The third item will be the report stage of the bill to amend the Oil and Gas Production and Conservation Act. The fourth item will be the one relating to agricultural matters.


Mr. Bell:: Farm marketing?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Farm marketing.
At 6 p.m. the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to Standing Order.
22375-22%

Thursday, May 14, 1970