1970-05-11

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, following many questions asked about the reporting on election night in Quebec, I received this morning from the CBC a report on each of the three points raised. With the consent of the House, I would like to make its content known to hon. members, since it seems to me that the text is a little too long for the oral question period itself and that you could hardly authorize me to read it.
As for the broadcasting time granted to party leaders on election night, the CBC has given me the following information: We devoted 20 minutes and 54 seconds of television broadcasting time to cover the news from Liberal headquarters on election night. Of that time, 8 minutes and 34 seconds were used to describe the atmosphere at the committee rooms, the arrival of the victorious leader and the ovation he received from his supporters: on that occasion, the new premier made a statement that lasted 6 minutes and 35 seconds which was carried in full. He later agreed to an interview that lasted 5 minutes and 20 seconds.
The leader of the Union nationale had decided to wait for the results at his home in the riding of Missisquoi. We obtained a statement from him; it lasted 2 minutes and 51 seconds and he agreed to answer questions for 2 minutes and 10 seconds.
The leader of the Ralliement Creditiste refused to make a statement. He preferred granting us an interview of 7 minutes and 5 seconds. We proposed to Mr. Samson to cover the statement he would make before
his supporters on election night. He turned down our invitation because he preferred a studio interview.
The Parti quebecois had invited its supporters and the public to follow the events on election night at the Paul Sauve arena. That is where Mr. Levesque had decided to make a statement before his supporters and to give us an interview. He delivered a speech of 11 minutes and 40 seconds-which we did broadcast in full-and gave us an interview that lasted 4 minutes and 35 seconds.
Needless to say, the CBC did not have any control over the length of speeches made by each leader to his supporters or on his statement to the electorate. Had Mr. Bertrand made a 10-minute statement, we would have carried it in full and we would have done the same for Mr. Bourassa had he made a 15-minute speech before his supporters.
We had also invited to our broadcasting studios candidates from each party: four from the Union nationale, four Liberals' three from the Parti quebecois, three Creditistes and one NDP. Only two Union nationale representatives came to our studio. It was the same for the Quebec Liberal party and Parti quebecois. No Creditiste representative showed up as arranged, on election night. The New Democratic party representative came.
The Prime Minister of Canada was not invited to our public affairs broadcasts following the Quebec provincial elections and this for a simple reason. We took for granted, as the Prime Minister's office had indicated on voting day, that it was against tradition for a federal prime minister to comment the results of a provincial election. Under the circumstances, no special invitation was extended to the Prime Minister of Canada to take part in a public affairs broadcast on the results of the Quebec elections.
9 (2:10 p.m.)
Besides, going as far back into the past as we can, we do not remember the French network ever inviting the Prime Minister of the country on a public affairs program following a provincial election in Quebec.
However, the words spoken by Mr. Trudeau upon his arrival in Parliament, the day after
May 11. 1970

Yukon and Territorial Lands Acts the election, were included in our news broadcasts, either as background stories or interviews with him. We did not think it advisable to add to this interview, which was part of our radio and television news broadcasts, a special public affairs program at which he would have been a guest.
All the more so as, with regard to the anniversary of Mr. Trudeau's and the Liberal government's accession to power, we had contacted the Prime Minister's office as early as April 13, to invite him to give an appreciation of his two years of administration on radio. A television program on the same subject was to have taken place later.
Finally, the CBC did not cover the meeting of Creditiste members of the provincial Parliament which is supposed to have taken place in Quebec on May 2 simply because, like all other media, it was completely unaware of that meeting. The news editors of the following newspapers and television stations were not informed of the Creditiste caucus held in Quebec: Le Soleil, L'Action, Le Journal de Quebec, La Presse, Channel 4, CHRC, CJRT, CKCV. Moreover, the leader of the Ralliement creditiste himself, Mr. Camil Samson, admitted that this was an in camera meeting not to be followed by a statement to the press.
All the news editors of the different media complain of the great difficulty in properly covering the activities of the Ralliement creditiste because of the Ralliement's almost complete lack of a press service.
It might be added that, in the circumstances, the CBC is in the same boat as private radio and television stations and newspapers, none of which referred that weekend to the Creditiste meeting.



YUKON ACT, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES ACT AND TERRITORIAL LANDS ACT     AMENDMENTS RESPECTING MEMBERS OF COUNCILS, VOTERS, APPOINTMENT OF JUDGES, LAND MANAGEMENT ZONES, ETC.

Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development) moved: for leave to introduce Bill C-212 to amend the Yukon Act, the Northwest Territories Act and the Territorial Lands Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first time and order to be printed.
IMr. Pelletier.]

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Thomson: 1.	(a) What industries are the major consumers of Canadian sulphur (b) how much has been produced in Canada for each of the last ten years (c) what industries have taken most of the increase?
2.	What criteria does the National Energy Board use in its determination of whether additional exports or imports of natural gas should be authorized?
3.	Has the government had any studies done regarding the effect of availability of energy supplies on location of industry and, if so, what are their titles?


Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: 1. (a) The
major consumers of elemental sulphur in Canada are: (i) pulp and paper industry; Cii) industrial chemical industry (principally for fertilizers); (iii) miscellaneous chemical and explosives industry.
(b) Production of elemental sulphur for the years 1959-68:
Year	Tons
1959	294,775
1960	454,045
1961	550,101
1962	1,167,999
1963	1,440,802
1964	1,664,413
1965	1,812,612
1966	1,979,298
1967	2,476,007
1968	3,457,667
These figures represent the combined production of elemental sulphur from sulphides, from refineries processing Canadian crude petroleum and from natural gas processing plants. The latter source is by far the most important. The sulphur content of smelter gas and pyrites concentrates are not included because sulphur in its natural state is not produced in Canada from these sources.
(c) Most of the increased production of elemental sulphur has been exported. Exports have risen from approximately 12,000 tons in
May 11, 1970

1959 to 2,360,000 tons in 1968. Growth of consumption by the largest consuming industries in Canada is as follows:
Industry	1959	1967
tons
Pulp and paper	275,000 360,000
Industrial chemicals	195,000 400,000
Misc. chemicals and explosives 10,000 27,000
2.	The criteria are prescribed in Part VI of the National Energy Board Act and in the National Energy Board Part VI Regulations made pursuant to that Act.
3.	No.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO H. P. CYRENNE LTEE.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "H. P. Cyrenne Ltee." and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of "H. P. Cyrenne Ltee." and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: 1 and 2.
This information was contained in the monthly report, tabled in Parliament on the operation of the Regional Development Act.
3,	4 and 5. This information is not presently available as this corporation is not required to report under any Act of Parliament.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO MAROCHELLE COMPANY LIMITED
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "Maro-chelle Company Limited" and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated capital cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of "Marochelle Company Limited" and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Questions


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO O. G. KORPELA AND ASSOCIATES
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "O. G. Korpela & Associates" and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of "O. G. Korpela & Associates" and what it the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Mr. Yves Fores! (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council): See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO RELIABLE FENCE MANUFACTURING
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "Reliable Fence Manufacturing" and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and executive officers of "Reliable Fence Manufacturing" and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known-non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO ECCO SEAFOOD EXPORTS
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "Ecco Seafood Exports" and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of "Ecco Seafood Exports" and what is the address of each?

May 11, 1970
Questions
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CIP-SYSTEMS HOMEMAKERS
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to "CIP- Systems Homemakers" and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of "CIP-Systems Homemakers" and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO ACTO LUMBER LIMITED
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Acto Lumber Limited, Fruitvale, B.C. and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Acto Lumber Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO AEROFOAM CHEMICALS LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Aerofoam Chemicals Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?

2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Aerofoam Chemicals Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO EVERGREEN SEED AND FARM SALES AND SERVICE
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Evergreen Seed & Farm Sales and Service, Gretna, Manitoba and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Evergreen Seed & Farm Sales and Service and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO FORT WOOD LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Fort Wood Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Fort Wood Ltd., and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Mr. Yves Foresl (Parliamentary Secretary
to President of the Privy Council): See answer
to Question No. 936 answered this day.
May 11, 1970


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CRANKSHAFT INDUSTRIES
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Crankshaft Industries, Winnipeg, Manitoba and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Crankshaft Industries, and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CANADIAN PUBLISHERS (1970) LIMITED
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Canadian Publishers (1970) Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Canadian Publishers (1970) Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CANADIAN NORTHLAND STONE
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Canadian Northland Stone, North Bay, Ontario and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Canadian Northland Stone and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
22375-11J
Questions
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


NATIONAL CONFERENCE ON PRICE STABILITY EXPENDITURE
Mr. Bailsman: What is the estimated expenditure by the Prices and Incomes Commission in sponsoring the National Conference on Price Stability held on February 9 and 10, 1970?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: I have been informed by the Chairman of the Prices and Incomes Commission as follows: The cost of the National Conference on Price Stability, including pre-conference and post-conference activities is estimated at $12,201.88. This is broken-down into the following major classifications of expenditure: 1. Activities regarding registration and accreditation including additional secretarial and clerical assistance, and the printing and packaging of conference documents, $5,709.55.
2.	Recording, transcribing and translation of proceedings and documents, $1,644.00.
3.	Meals, reception and coffee for approximately 500 persons from Sunday afternoon, February 8, to Tuesday afternoon, February 10, 1970, $3,498.39.
4.	Office services including rental or purchase of furniture, equipment and supplies, $1,349.94. Total: $12,201.88.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO MAISONS MOBILES IDEALES
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Maisons Mobiles Ideales, St. Joseph de Beauce, Quebec, and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Maisons Mobiles Ideales and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary
to President of the Privy Council): See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.

May 11. 1970
Questions


INCENTIVE GRANT TO ST. STEPHEN WOODWORKING CO. LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to St. Stephen Woodworking Co. Ltd., St. Stephen, N.B. and, if so, what is the amount of grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of St. Stephen Woodworking Co. Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO UNITED SAWMILL CO.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to United Sawmill Co., Hearst, Ontario and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of United Sawmill Co. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO LES PRODUITS ESTO LTEE.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Les Produits Esto Ltee., Dorval, Quebec and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Les Produits Esto Ltee., and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO PARENT LUMBER LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Parent Lumber Ltd., St. Quentin, N.B. and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2 What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Parent Lumber Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.
INCENTIVE GRANT TO OXFORD FOUNDRY & MACHINE CO.


Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Oxford Foundry & Machine Co., Oxford, N.S. and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Oxford Foundry & Machine Co. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


PENITENTIARIES-MONITORING OF CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN INMATE AND VISITOR
Mr. Yewchuk: 1.	Is it the policy of the government, that conversations between inmates of federal prisons and their visitors be monitored by prison authorities and, if so, at which federal prisons in British Columbia is this done?
2.	Is it the policy of the government, that prisoners, when speaking with visitors, be restricted as to what language they may speak and, if so (a) what are these restrictions (b) by prison, what restrictions are applied in the federal prisons of British Columbia?
3.	Have Indian prisoners at federal prisons in British Columbia been instructed to stop conversing with visitors in their native tongue and to continue only in French or in English and, if so, at which prisons?
May 11, 1970

4.	By prison, how many officials of the federal prisons of British Columbia, are familiar with the French language?


Hon. G. J. Mcllraith (Solicitor General):: 1.
The policy, as set out in sections 2.17 and 2.18 of Penitentiary Service Regulations, provides that the visiting privileges that may be permitted to inmates shall be such as are, in all circumstances calculated to assist in the reformation and rehabilitation of the inmate; also, that insofar as practicable the privacy of visits shall be maintained but that nothing therein shall be deemed to limit supervision of visiting to the extent considered necessary or desirable for the reformation and rehabilitation of inmates or the security of the institution. In the supervision of visiting monitoring of conversations occurs but in those institutions only and to the extent only considered necessary for such supervision. The British Columbia Penitentiary (New Westminster) is the only Federal prison in British Columbia in which there is provision for monitoring conversations between inmates and visitors.
2.	No, except in special circumstances where arrangements are made for interpreters should one or other of the official languages not be known to either inmate or visitor.
3.	As for Part 2.
4.	British Columbia Penitentiary, 12; Mats-qui Institution, 8; William Head Institution, 3; Mountain Prison, 2; Total, 25.


MANICOUAGAN-CONSTRUCTION OF ACCESS ROADS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,454-Mr. Blouin:	(Supplementary)
With reference to the federal-provincial plan for the construction of access roads to natural resources (a) what works were undertaken in the constituency of Manicouagan (b) what was the length, in miles, of the roads constructed (c) where were they constructed (d) what was the cost (e) how much was contributed by the federal government (f) are any new agreements with the provinces contemplated?
Mr. E. F. Whelan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Forestry):: (d)

2,173,000
55.000
48.000
20.000
59,000
Questions


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CHEMCELL LIMITED, COATICOOK, QUEBEC
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Chemcell Limited, Coaticook, Quebec and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Chemcell Limited and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Mr. Yves Fores! (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council): I am informed by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion and the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as follows: 1 and 2. This information was contained in the monthly report, tabled in Parliament on the operation of the Regional Development Act.
3. The directors of Chemcell Limited as at December 31, 1968 were: W. A. Arbuckle, 8 Chelsea Place, Montreal 109, Quebec; Peter
H.	Conze, Old Church Road, Greenwich, Conn. 06832, U.S.A.; R. M. Fowler, 36 Summit Circle, Westmount 217, Quebec; C. S. Malone, 493 Argyle Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; Paul M. Marshall, 15 Aberdeen Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; William T. Marx, 49 Zaccheus Mead Lane, Greenwich, Conn. 06830, U.S.A.; Robinson Ord, 325 Newlands Avenue, Sydney, N.S.; F. J. Pizzitola, 2 Kelwynne Road, Searsdale, N.Y. 10585, U.S.A.; Jean Raymond, Q.C., 1321 Sherbrooke Street West, Apt. A-100, Montreal 109, Quebec; Jean Simard, 159 Les Erables, Laval-sur-le-Lac, Quebec; Peter N. Thomson, Pointe Cavagnal, R.R. 1, Vaudreuil, Quebec; William
I.	M. Turner, Jr. 4294 Montrose Avenue, Westmount 218, Quebec.
The executive officers of Chemcell Limited as at June 19, 1969 were: C. S. Malone, Chairman and President, 593 Argyle Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; F. J. Fitzgerald, Senior Vice-President, 578 Chelsea Crescent, Beaurepaire, Quebec; W. P. Copenhaver, Vice-President, 421 Doric Drive, Beaconsfield, Quebec; C. G. Edge, Vice-President, 4488 St. Catherine Street W., Apt. 806, Westmount 215, Quebec; F. W. Fitzpatrick, Vice-President, 116 Marlin Crescent, Pointe Claire, Quebec; R. : G. Frakes, Vice-President, 2255
(a) and (c)	(b)
Riviere Manicouagan	65 miles
Riviere au Tonnerre	10 miles
Riviere Natashquan	9	milesRiviere Mingan	8	miles
Riviere Ste-Marguerite 16 miles
(e) 50 per cent, (f) no.

May 11. 1970
Questions
Sunset Road, Mount Royal 305, Quebec;
O.	A. Greiner, Vice-President, 36 Laurier Court, Beaurepaire, Quebec; F. L. MacAskill, Vice-President, 276 Avalon Street, Rosemere, Quebec; C. S. Stephens, Vice-President, 467 Portland Avenue, Mount Royal 305, Quebec;
J.	H. Birkett, Secretary, 1 Poplar Place, Baie d'Urfe, Quebec; K. A. Biggs, Treasurer, 249 Percival Avenue, Montreal West 263, Quebec;
P.	G. Smith, Controller, P.O. Box 595, Hudson, Quebec; Marc Regnier, Assistant Secretary, 3250 Forest Hill Avenue, Apt. 201, Montreal 247, Quebec.
4.	Non-residents have a 59.1 per cent interest in the voting shares of the company either directly or through other holdings.
5.	Celanese Corporation of the United States is the majority shareholder.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CHEMCELL LIMITED, MONTMAGNY, QUEBEC
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Chemcell Limited, Montmagny, Quebec and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2., What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Chemcell Limited and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion and the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as follows: 1 and 2. This information was contained in the monthly report, tabled in Parliament on the operation of the Regional Development Act.
3.	The directors of Chemcell Limited as at December 31, 1968 were: W. A. Arbuckle, 8 Chelsea Place, Montreal 109, Quebec; Peter H. Conze, Old Church Road, Greenwich, Conn. 06832, U.S.A.; R. M. Fowler, 36 Summit Circle, Westmount 217, Quebec; C. S. Malone, 593 Argyle Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; Paul
M.	Marshall, 15 Aberdeen Avenue, West-mount 217, Quebec; William T. Marx, 49 Zac-cheus Mead Lane, Greenwich, Conn. 06830, U.S.A.; Robinson Ord, 325 Newlands Avenue, Sydney, N.S.; F. J. Pizzitola, 2 Kelwynne Road, Scarsdale, N.Y. 10585, U.S.A.; Jean

Raymond, Q.C., 1321 Sherbrooke Street West, Apt. A-100, Montreal 109, Quebec; Jean Simard, 159 Les Erables, Laval-sur-le-Lac, Quebec; Peter N. Thomson, Pointe Cavagnal, R.R. 1, Vaudreuil, Quebec; William I. M. Turner, Jr., 4294 Montrose Avenue, West-mount 218, Quebec.
The executive officers of Chemcell Limited as at June 19, 1969 were: C. S. Malone, Chairman and President, 593 Argyle Avenue, West-mount 217, Quebec; F. J. Fitzgerald, Senior Vice-President, 578 Chelsea Crescent, Beaurepaire, Quebec; W. P. Copenhaver, VicePresident, 421 Doric Drive, Beaconsfield, Quebec; C. G. Edge, Vice-President, 4488 St. Catherine Street W., Apt. 806, Westmount 215, Quebec; F. W. Fitzpatrick, Vice-President, 116 Marlin Crescent, Pointe Claire, Quebec; R. G. Frakes, Vice-President, 2255 Sunset Road, Mount Royal 305, Quebec; O. A. Greiner, Vice-President, 36 Laurier Court, Beaurepaire, Quebec; F. L. MacAskill, VicePresident, 276 Avalon Street, Rosemere, Quebec; C. S. Stephens, Vice-President, 467 Portland Avenue, Mount Royal 305, Quebec; J. H. Birkett, Secretary, 1 Poplar Place, Baie d'Urfe, Quebec; K. A. Biggs, Treasurer, 249 Percival Avenue, Montreal West 263, Quebec; P. G. Smith, Controller, P.O. Box 595, Hudson, Quebec; Marc Regnier, Assistant Secretary, 3250 Forest Hill Avenue, Apt. 201, Montreal 247, Quebec.
4.	Non-residents have a 59.1 per cent interest in the voting shares of the company either directly or through other holdings.
5.	Celanese Corporation of the United States is the majority shareholder.
INCENTIVE GRANT TO K & W ENTERPRISES LTD.


Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to K & W Enterprises, Ltd., Liverpool, N.S. and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of K & W Enterprises, Ltd. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary
to President of the Privy Council): See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.
May 11. 1970


PERSONNEL ADMINISTERING INDIAN AFFAIRS
Mr. Mazankowski: How many public servants were employed in the administration of the affairs of native Indians in the fiscal years 1965-66, 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69?


Yves Forest: In so far
as the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is concerned, the answer has been provided previously on April 21, 1969 in response to Question No. 1,849. For the fiscal years 1965 to 1969 the Department of National Health and Welfare (Medical Services Branch) employed the following number of public servants for the administration of the health services for native Indians:
Year	Medical Officers	Nurses	Admin. Employees1965-66	59	511	1431966-67	56	488	1601967-68	49	478	1811968-69	38	441	192
Note: 1. The total staff of the Medical Services Branch, which involves eight activities including administration was 2,433 full time continuing employees on strength March 1970.
2.	Many employees of Medical Services are involved in more than one activity and cannot be clearly defined as working in the Indian Health Services Activity only. These, therefore, are not included in the above detailed figures.
3.	Contractual arrangements exist with private physicians and universities to provide the medical services of physicians at eight hospitals. Resultantly, the number of physicians who are federal employees is less. In provinces under Medicare the native Indian is covered and can seek the services of a private physician.
4.	Ten Indian Health Services Hospitals are now operated, ranging from 19 to 350 beds. Hospitals which were formerly IHS have closed, one in 1966, one in 1968 and one in Sept. 1969, with a resultant decline in hospital staff medical officers and nurses.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO ELIAS SECTIONAL HOMES LIMITED
Mr. Burton: 1. Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, au-
Questions
thorized or provided an incentive grant to Elias Sectional Homes Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Elias Sectional Homes Limited and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO LE FEVRE SALES INC.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Le Fevre Sales Inc., Yahk, B.C. and, if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	What is the total estimated cost of the project for which the grant was provided and what is the nature of the project and its location?
3.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Le Fevre Sales Inc. and what is the address of each?
4.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
5.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


LEGISLATION TO PROHIBIT &quot;REFERRAL SALES&quot;
Mrs. Maclnnis: Is it the intention of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to introduce legislation to prohibit the practice of "referral sales"?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Careful consideration will be given to the practice of "referral sales" in the preparation of amendments to the Combines Investigation Act which are presently being studied.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO SUNRAY BOATS INC.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Sun-ray Boats Inc., Victoriaville, Quebec, and if so. what is the amount of the grant?

May 11, 1970
Questions
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Sunray Boats Inc., and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO PANNIER CERAMICS LTEE.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Pannier Ceramics Ltee., Magog, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Pannier Ceramics Ltde., and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO MIRAGE DRUMMOND INC.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Mirage Drummond Inc., Drummondville, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Mirage Drummond Inc. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO LES INDUSTRIES BEN-ANGUS LTEE.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Les Industries Ben-Augus Ltee., Lambton, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Les Industries Ben-Augus Ltee. and what is the address of each?

3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.
INCENTIVE GRANT TO B/W TYPE SERVICE LTD.


Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to B/W Type Service Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of B/W Type Service Ltd., and what is address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.
INCENTIVE GRANT TO G & J WATT CO.


Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to G & J Watt Co., Winnipeg, Manitoba, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of G & J Watt Co. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CANADIAN HOCKEY STICKS LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Canadian Hockey Sticks Ltd., Drummondville, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Canadian Hockey Sticks Ltd., and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?
May 11, 1970

Mr. Yves Fores! (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council): See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO LES INDUSTRIES OLYMPIC INC.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Les Industries Olympic Inc., Montreal, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Les Industries Olympic Inc. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO EASTERN FENCE CO. INC.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Eastern Fence Co. Inc., Millville, N.B., and if so, what is the amount of the grant
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Eastern Fence Co. Inc. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO METEV WOOLLEN MILLS LIMITED
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Metev Woollen Mills Ltd., Brandon, Manitoba, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Metev Woollen Mills Ltd. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.
Questions


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CANADIAN WILLIAMETTE LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentive Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Canadian Williamette Ltd., Golden, B.C., and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Canadian Williamette Ltd. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CENTRAL CANADIAN DISTILLERS CORP. LTD.
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Central Canadian Distillers Corp. Ltd., Weybum, Saskatchewan, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and chief executive officers of Central Canadian Distillers Corp. Ltd. and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: See answer to Question No. 936 answered this day.


CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD PRESS CONFERENCE
Mr. Burton: 1.	Did the Canadian Wheat Board hold or sponsor a press conference on or about August 21, 1969, to publicize and explain the bloc system of grain movement?
2 Did the Canadian Wheat Board invite representatives of news media to attend this conference and, if so, what is the name of each person or news outlet invited to attend?
3.	What was the name of each person who attended this news conference and whom did each represent?
4.	What expenses were paid by the Canadian Wheat Board on behalf of each person attending this press conference?
5.	How many news stories emanated from this press conference to the knowledge of the Canadian Wheat Board?

May 11. 1970
Questions


Hon. Olio E. Lang (Minister without Portfolio):: 1. The press conference referred to was sponsored by the Technical Group of the Grain Transportation Committee.
2.	Invitations to the press conference were issued by the Technical Group of the Grain Transportation Committee. News representatives invited to attend were as follows: Garth Taylor, C.B.C. Farm Broadcast Department; Lionel Moore, C.B.C. Farm Broadcast Department; D. Baron, Editor (Winnipeg), Country Guide; R. Fry, Assoc. Editor (Winnipeg), Country Guide; Bruce MacDonald, Editor, Free Press Weekly; Jack Francis (Winnipeg), Free Press Weekly; T. Melville-Ness, Editor & Publisher, Western Producer; D. Wreford, Western Editor, Good Farming; John Schmidt, Agricultural Editor, Calgary Herald; Gayle Honey, Agricultural Editor, Calgary Albertan; T. Campbell, Agricultural Editor, Edmonton Journal; R. Watmough, Agricultural Editor, Lethbridge Herald; P. O'Dwyer, Agricultural Editor, Saskatoon Star-Phoenix; G. Wade, Regina Leader Post; Val Werier, Winnipeg Tribune; Harry Mardon, Winnipeg Tribune; Sheldon Bowles, Winnipeg Free Press; Marty Martinson, Manitoba Co-operator; Representative, Union Farmer; R. Newman, Manitoba Business Journal; Fred Chafe, Canadian Press; Ian Carman, Toronto Globe and Mail; Alberta Weekly Newspapers Association; Saskatchewan Weekly Newspapers Association; and Manitoba Weekly Newspapers Association, R. Tuckwell.
3.	Those attending were: L. H. Drouin, St. Paul Journal; D. Wreford, Good Farming Magazine; R. Fry, Country Guide; J. Schmidt, Calgary Herald; F. Chafe, Canadian Press; T. R. Melville-Ness, Western Producer; J. Art, Edmonton Journal; P. O'Dwyer, Saskatoon Star-Phoenix; Mrs. Webb, Manitoba Cooperator; M. Sykula, Regina Leader Post; R. Watmough, Lethbridge Herald; R. S. Reid, Union Farmer; Sheldon Bowles, Winnipeg Free Press; B. Hainstock, Winnipeg Tribune; B. MacDonald, Free Press Weekly; Lionel Moore, C.B.C.
4.	Cost of air fare for seven news representatives, not resident in Manitoba, was paid by the Canadian Wheat Board.
5.	To the knowledge of the Canadian Wheat Board fifteen news stories emanated from this press conference. This does not include reports carried in Alberta daily newspapers and Prairie weekly newspapers.


SPORTS-FINANCIAL SUPPORT FOR 1976 OLYMPIC GAMES
Mr. McCleave: Has the federal government promised financial assistance to any Canadian city proposing to host the 1976 Olympic Summer or Winter Games, and, if so, what amount of financial assistance is proposed and for what purposes would such be earmarked?


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Yes; the Federal Government promised financial assistance to Vancouver, through the Garibaldi Olympic Development Association. The amount of $75,000 was granted to the Garibaldi Olympic Development Association to assist in the promotional costs and to pay for a cost benefit analysis (to establish the residual value of the proposed facilities and other benefits to Canada, to the Province and the City of Vancouver); for the presentation and promotion of the Garibaldi candidature as a winter Olympic site.
Should the bid be successful, Cabinet has agreed to grant $10,000,000 in the form of a fixed grant toward the deficit of a corporation to be established to operate and manage the Winter Olympic Games, providing the Province of British Columbia and the City of Vancouver agree to offset the remaining portion of an anticipated deficit. (Also, see Hansard Jan. 22,	1976-Sports-Financial
Support for Olympic Games Bids-Pages 2728-2730).


INFORMATION SUPPLIED TO PUBLIC CONCERN-NING CHARITABLE ORGANIZATIONS
Mr. Robinson: Does the federal government provide information to the public about charitable organizations concerning (a) programme (b) assets (c) liability (d) directors (e) membership and, if not, for what reason?


Yves Forest: The Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has available for public inspection copies of Letters Patent and Supplementary Letters Patent of all federally incorporated corporations. The examination of these documents, including those relating to charitable organizations, would disclose the objects of a corporation, although will not necessarily disclose the full details of its program. No information regarding the assets, liabilities and membership of charitable organizations incorporated under the Canada Corporations Act, is available in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs because the Canada
May 11, 1970

Corporations Act does not currently require the filing of such information. The names and addresses of the directors of a corporation are, however, available to the public from the Annual Summaries filed by all corporations as of March 31 of each year with Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
Any information of the kind requested that is available from the files of Canadian charitable organizations registered as such for income tax purpose cannot be disclosed because of the secrecy provisions of the Income Tax Act.


CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD PERSONNEL
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many people are employed by the Canadian Wheat Board?
2.	Who are the members of the Advisory Committee provided for under Section 9 of the Canadian Wheat Board Act?


Otto Emil Lang: 1. 582 as at April 18, 1970.
2.	Mr. R. R. Atkinson, Landis, Saskatchewan; Mr. G. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. M. Runciman, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. J. I. Stevens, Morinville, Alberta; Mr. E. K. Turner, Regina, Saskatchewan.


CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Mr. Soulham: 1.	Who are the present members of the Advisory Committee to the Canadian Wheat Board?
2.	In each case, what is their home address?
3.	What is their tenure of office?
4.	What is the name of each of the Committee members appointed in each case from 1957 to 1970 inclusive?
5.	Basically, what are their functions and how often does the Committee meet?


Otto Emil Lang: 1 and 2. Mr. R. R. Atkinson, Landis, Saskatchewan; Mr. G. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. M. Runciman, Winnipeg Manitoba; Mr. J. I. Stevens, Morinville, Alberta; Mr. E. K. Turner, Regina, Saskatchewan.
3.	Appointed during pleasure by the Governor-in-Council.
4.	Crop years 1957-58 to 1959-60: Mr. J. H. Wesson, Regina, Saskatchewan; Mr. J. E. Brownlee, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. P. Gleave, Biggar, Saskatchewan; Mr. G. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Mr. A. W. Platt, Edmonton, Alberta.
22375-12$
Questions
Crop years 1960-61 to 1964-65: Mr. C. W. Gibbings, Regina, Saskatchewan; Mr. A. P. Gleave, Biggar, Saskatchewan; Mr. G. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. M. Runciman, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. J. I. Stevens, Morinville, Alberta.
Crop years 1965-66 to 1967-68: Mr. R. R. Atkinson, Landis, Saskatchewan; Mr. C. W. Gibbings, Regina, Saskatchewan; Mr. G.. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. M. Runciman, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. J. I. Stevens, Morinville, Alberta;
Crop years 1968-69 to date: Mr. R. R. Atkinson, Landis, Saskatchewan; Mr. G. L. Harrold, Lamont, Alberta; Dr. W. J. Parker, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. A. M. Runciman, Winnipeg, Manitoba; Mr. J. I. Stevens, Morinville, Alberta; Mr. E. K. Turner, Regina, Saskatchewan.
5.	The chief function of the Committee is to assist the Board. The Committee meets at the call of the Minister or the Board.


INDIAN AFFAIRS-AMALGAMATION OF TOUCHWOOD AND FILE HILLS- QU'APPELLE AGENCIES
Mr. Burton: 1.	Has the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development decided to amalgamate the Touchwood Agency and the File Hills-Qu'Appelle Agency into one district and, if so, on what date will the amalgamation take place and where will the headquarters be located?
2 What Indian Affairs personnel will be retained in the Wynyard office?
3.	Which Indian Bands in the Touchwood Agency have approved the amalgamation and on what date did each Band approve the amalgamation?
4.	Which Indian Bands in the Touchwood Agency have not given approval to the amalgamation?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1. A
decision has not yet been made.
2.	N/A.
3.	Band Muskowekwan Day Star Fishing Lake Kinistino Nut Lake Gordon
Date of Approval by Band Council Resolution January 13,1970 January 21,1970 January 22,1970 January 27,1970 March 10,1970 March 19,1970
not given
4. The Poorman Band has approval, to the amalgamation.



May 11, 1970
Questions


INCENTIVE GRANT TO CHEMCELL LIMITED, MONTREAL, QUEBEC
Mr. Burlon: 1.	Has the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, under the Regional Incentives Act, authorized or provided an incentive grant to Chemcell Limited, Montreal, Quebec, and if so, what is the amount of the grant?
2.	Who are the directors and executive officers of Chemcell Limited and what is the address of each?
3.	To what extent is this company non-resident or foreign-owned or controlled?
4.	What is the name and country of the known non-resident ownership in this company?


Yves Forest: I am
informed by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion and the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as follows: 1. This information was contained in the monthly report, tabled in Parliament on the operation of the Regional Development Act.
2. The directors of Chemcell Limited as at December 31, 1968, were: W. A. Arbuckle, 8 Chelsea Place, Montreal 109, Quebec; Robinson Ord, 325 Newlands Avenue, Sydney,
N.S.; Peter H. Conze, Old Church Road, Greenwich, Conn. 06832, U.S.A.; F. J. Pizzi-tola, 2 Kelwynne Road, Scarsdale, N.Y. 10585, U.S.A.; R. M. Fowler, 36 Summit Circle, Westmount 217, Quebec; Jean Raymond, Q.C., 1321 Sherbrooke Street West, Apt. A-100 Montreal 109, Quebec; C. S. Malone, 593 Argyle Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; Jean Simard, 159 Les Erables, Laval-sur-le-Lac, Quebec; Paul M. Marshall, 15 Aberdeen Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; Peter N. Thomson, Pointe Cavagnal, R.R. 1, Vaudreuil, Quebec; William T. Marx, 49 Zaccheus Mead Lane, Greenwich, Conn. 06830, U.S.A.; William I. M. Turner, Jr., 4294 Montrose Avenue, Westmount 218, Quebec.
The executive officers of Chemcell Limited as at June 19, 1969 were: C. S. Malone, Chairman and President, 593 Argyle Avenue, Westmount 217, Quebec; F. J. Fitzgerald, Senior Vice-President, 578 Chelsea Crescent, Beaurepaire, Quebec; W. P. Copenhaver, Vice-President, 421 Doric Drive, Beaconsfield, Quebec; C. G. Edge, Vice-President, 4488 St. Catherine Street W., Apt. 806, Westmount 215, Quebec; F. W. Fitzpatrick, Vice-President, 116 Marlin Crescent, Pointe Claire, Quebec; R. G. Frakes, Vice-President, 2255 Sunset Road, Mount Royal 305, Quebec; O.

A. Greiner, Vice-President, 36 Laurier Court, Beaurepaire, Quebec; F. L. MacAskill, Vice-President, 276 Avalon Street, Rosemere, Quebec; C. S. Stephens, Vice-President, 467 Portland Avenue, Mount Royal 305, Quebec; J. H. Birkett, Secretary, 1 Poplar Place, Baie d'Urfe, Quebec; K. A. Biggs, Treasurer, 249 Percival Avenue, Montreal West 263, Quebec; P. G. Smith, Controller, P.O. Box 595, Hudson, Quebec; Marc Regnier, Assistant Secretary, 3250 Forest Hill Avenue, Apt. 201, Montreal 247, Quebec.
3.	Non-residents have a 59.1 per cent interest in the voting shares of the company either directly or through other holdings.
4.	Celanese Corporation of the United States is the majority shareholder.


BANFF NATIONAL PARK-LEASE OF VILLAGE LAKE LOUISE LIMITED
Mr. Harkness: 1.	What is the length of the lease granted to Village Lake Louise Limited for the development of visitor accommodation, restaurants, shops, etc. in Banff National Park at Lake Louise Alberta?
2.	What is the provision in this lease for the disposition of the facilities erected when the lease expires?
3.	What is the number of shares in Village Lake Louise Limited owned by (a) Imperial Oil Limited (b) Lake Louise Lifts Limited (c) others?


Mr. Russell C. Honey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1. No lease has been granted to Village Lake Louise Limited. However the company has completed a memorandum of intention with the Department that provides for the issue of a 42 year lease, if the undertakings contained in the memorandum of intention are fulfilled.
2.	No lease has been granted. However, the memorandum of intention, mentioned in (1), provides that everything that is now or hereafter becomes so attached to the land as to form in law part of the land, vests in Her Majesty.
3.	Imperial Oil, 50 per cent; Lake Louise Lifts, 50 per cent.


GRANTS UNDER MANPOWER MOBILITY PROGRAM
Mr. Nysfrom: 1.	What is the number of people who have received grants under the Manpower Mobility Program since its inception?
2.	Has any follow-up study of these people been made and, if so, what is the percentage of these
May 11, 1970



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Lambert (Edmonton: West):
1.	As at January 1, 1970, what is the number, by individual departments of the Government of Canada, Crown agencies, boards, commissions, or other emanations of the Crown not being Crown Corporations (CNR-Air Canada-CBC) of public servants (not RCMP or Canadian Defence Forces) in the categories of SX 1, 2, 3 and 4 and what is the annual rate of remuneration of such persons, including salary and any performance pay or increment?
2.	Into which of these categories of SX 1, 2, 3 and 4 do fall the positions generally known as Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister and Assistant Deputy Minister or the equivalent of any such position?
3.	Has there yet been created a category of Deputy Minister 1, 2 or 3 or some category akin to this and, if so, when was it created and how many are there in each category and at what salary?
Return tabled.


FEES PAID ARISING OUT OF ACTIVITY PURSUANT TO NARCOTIC CONTROL ACT
Mr. Howard (Skeena): Since January 1, 1965, have any fees or remuneration been paid to (a) lawyers, and (b) persons
other than lawyers for opinions and/or action arising out of, or related to, any activity pursuant to the Narcotic Control Act and, if so, what are the names and addresses of each such lawyer or other person, the amount of money paid to each and the type of service rendered in each instance with the applicable dates?
Return tabled.


DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION PERSONNEL
Mr. Nystrom: 1 What is the number of people employed by the Department of Manpower and Immigration?
2.	What is the breakdown of these employees by category (a) Executive (b) Scientific and Professional (e) Administrative and Foreign Services (d) Administrative support (e) Technical?
3.	What are the corresponding salaries for these categories?
4.	What is the total amount spent by the Department on salaries?
Return tabled.


Mr. Crouse:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, on November 19 I placed a question No. 513 on the Order Paper. It is a relatively simple question dealing with government procedure. I wonder why it has taken so long for the government to prepare a reply to such a relatively simple question?


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, I shall make the necessary inquiries concerning this question.

May IX, X970
Inquiries of the Ministry



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Hon. George Hees (Prince Edward-Has-lings):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister. As the Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures, disclosed during the weekend, show that industrial production is declining in Canada at an annual rate of 23 per cent a year, showing further the serious effect which the government's high interest rate policy is having on production and employment, is the government now giving serious consideration to having the Bank of Canada begin a gradual lowering of the interest rate so that industrial production and employment may be restored to a healthy level?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the government has the economic situation under review at all times. Of course we will take into account these latest figures, which the hon. member has projected on an annual basis, something Which I think is quite unjustified.


George Harris Hees: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. As the minister has indicated that the government really cares very little about this deteriorating situation-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


George Harris Hees: -my supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member should not take advantage of being recognized for a supplementary in order to make a speech. I suggest to him he should put the question.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, in view of this, has the minister's doctor advised him it is very bad for his eyes to keep his head in the sand so much of the time?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



HOUSING


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister regarding the fact that housing starts for the first four months of this year are down 41 per cent
[Mr. Forest.)
compared with the same period last year. Since CMHC figures indicate that for the month of April the starts, seasonally adjusted, amount to only 168,000 compared with 250,000 last year, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the government intends to introduce any emergency program or take any action with respect to interest rates or introduce any other measures to increase housing starts at least to the level of last year?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, as I said in answer to the previous question, the government has the economic situation under very close review. We are passing through a period in which we are hopeful that the measures that have been taken will result in a decrease in inflationary pressures. We see some prospect that this is so, but it is always a problem of balance and the government takes into account these trends in housing, like others. If the government came to the conclusion that the time had come to reverse gears it would, but it would be very dangerous to do so prematurely.


An hon. Member:: You have run out of gas.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: In view of the fact that the Economic Council of Canada set 250,000 starts a year as the requirement and this year we are going to fall far short of that goal unless there is some change in government policy, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister if he would arrange for the minister in charge of housing to make a statement on motions at an early date so that we may know what action the government intends to take for additional construction or to deal with the decline in housing starts?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think the hon. member must assume that his suggestion will be noted by the minister concerned.


George Harris Hees: A question for the Acting Prime Minister-


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands rises on a point of order.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I was not making a suggestion to the government. I was asking the Acting Prime Minister if he would under-
May 11, 1970

take to have the minister in charge of housing make a statement. I think the House would like to know whether or not he intends-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member is making a suggestion to the Acting Prime Minister suggesting to him that he suggest to the minister that he make a statement. I suggest to the hon. member that in this regard he has to assume that the suggestion has been noted.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary on the answer given by the Acting Prime Minister to the first question by the leader of the NDP. Is not this answer identical with the answers which he and the present Minister of Finance have been giving for the last four years to all economic questions-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


George Harris Hees: -and is it not about time that the government took notice of the suggestions of the opposition which would-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


George Harris Hees: -go a long way toward correcting this situation?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



POST OFFICE


Mr. Real Caouetle (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Labour.
Can he tell the House whether he expects a possible settlement of the postal dispute before the impending catastrophic strike should start?


Hon. Bryce Mackasey (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member knows that this question should be directed to the President of the Privy Council who is identified under the law as the employer in the case of public servants.


Mr. Baldwin:: It is the other president.


An hon. Member:: The President of the Treasury Board.


An hon. Member:: Too many presidents.
Inquiries of the Ministry [Translation]


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a supplementary question to the Postmaster General and Minister of Communications.
Should a strike occur, does the government intend to take action in order to insure mail delivery wherever it prevails?


Hon. Eric W. Kierans (Postmaster General and Minister of Communications):: I strongly doubt it, Mr. Speaker. Postal workers have the right to strike and I strongly doubt that it might be possible to take action in order to break a legal strike. However, we are ready to take all other required steps.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. Robert McCleave (Halifax-East Hants):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for External Affairs and I discussed it with him briefly before the House opened this afternoon. Could the hon. gentleman report briefly on the circumstances surrounding the murder of a Canadian diplomat in Southeast Asia before the weekend?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that anyone would be justified in saying that this accounting clerk in our mission in Saigon was murdered. There is no evidence to support murder. He was found strangled and I would like here to-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!
An hen. Member: He had to be murdered.


An hon. Member:: You have really run out of gas.


An hon. Member:: Boy, oh boy-get the
Prime Minister back.


Mitchell William Sharp: I should like, Mr. Speaker, to make both of my statements again, namely, that there is no evidence whatever that this officer was murdered. Nevertheless, he died from strangulation. Perhaps that is quite clear. I should like to express my sympathy to his family. The police are investigating, and we have informed the government in Saigon and the British embassy.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, since the
family in question lives in the riding of my colleague, the hon. member for Dartmouth-

May 11. 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry
Halifax East, I should like to thank the minis- is no such study in effect at the present time ter for the sympathy he has extended to the but that it might become necessary. May I ask family at this time.	whether there is in the ranks of the government discussion of such possibility in the CANADIAN CONFEDERATION	future, or is it a red herring?


PROPOSED UNIFICATION OF PRAIRIE PROVINCES
Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. Was the Minister of Supply and Services enunciating government policy when he proposed the unification of the three prairie provinces under the name of "Canada West". If so, would it be the intention of the government to call British Columbia "Canada Pacific"?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, the last part of my question was really hypothetical but possibly the minister might answer the first part.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Supply and Services made it quite clear in his speech that he was expressing a personal opinion and was not speaking on behalf of the government.


Gerald William Baldwin: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Was the minister speaking for the government and expressing government policy when he suggested that it might be useful if House procedures were changed to permit more freedom to members to express regional viewpoints? If so, does the government think it could pressure its backbenchers into showing some independence once in a while?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Mr. David Lewis (York South):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the government has undertaken any studies about uniting the three prairie provinces into one? Is there any intention on the part of the government to make any such suggestion or to make such study a suggestion to the constitutional conference?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the government does not have any such studies in effect. Neither has it taken any position one way or another on the matter. It might be appropriate at some time for such studies to be undertaken but they are not under way now.


David Lewis: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. The Acting Prime Minister appeared to choose words carefully when he said there


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I would not think that the question as asked is in order.


MANPOWER
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Immigration. Has the minister given consideration, in view of the high rate of student unemployment this summer, to discussing this matter with his appropriate provincial counterparts with a view to keeping vocational training institutes open during the summer months so that these students at least can continue to further their education at this time?


Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not asked the provincial governments to keep these institutions open for the summer months.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: A supplementary question relating to the question of student unemployment. Was the Minister of Manpower and Immigration consulted by his colleague, the Secretary of State, before the Secretary of State reportedly issued a wholesale invitation to malcontents and others in the United States to come to Canada?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


PUBLIC SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North
Centre): Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. My question is based on the statement in the Prime Minister's press release concerning the appointment of Mr. Jack Austin as deputy minister of Energy, Mines and Resources to the effect that Mr. Austin has made arrangements to sever the connections with the various firms in the private sector in which he had an interest during such time as he remains in the government service. In view of the government's interest in avoiding a conflict of interest, will the government consider asking
May 11, 1970
[Stage Direction]
appointees to positions of deputy minister and so on to sever any such connections completely?
Mitchell William Sharp: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether this would be wise. I think it is sometimes very valuable to appoint people to the Public Service with a certain kind of experience that is rare. Therefore I do not know that it would be in the public interest for individuals to be required to give such undertakings. But it is a suggestion that could be looked at, along with many others.


Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg Norlh Centre):: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. May I ask the Acting Prime Minister or the President of the Privy Council whether arrangements will be made to have this matter of conflict of interest discussed by Parliament during the current session?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I do not see a prospect of discussing it in the current session. As the hon. member knows, some of the difficulties, of which this is an illustration, have been under consideration by the government.


THE CANADIAN ECONOMY
Lloyd Roseville Crouse: In the
absence of the Minister of Finance I will direct my question to the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the fact that the Dow Jones industrial average had lost nearly 16 points at the close of last week, despite the reduction in margin requirements in the United States from 80 per cent to 65 per cent and in Canada from 60 per cent to 50 per cent, is the government giving any thought to reviewing and improving its present economic policies?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member is inviting the Acting Prime Minister or the minister to make a very general statement. I do not think the question is acceptable in those terms.




Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: My question is for the Secretary of State for External
Inquiries of the Ministry Affairs. Is the Canadian government contemplating a formal apology to the United States government for the disgraceful invasion of the town of Blaine in the State of Washington by a large group of hoodlums, queers and just plain fools from the Canadian side of the border who tore down the American flag and engaged in insurrection against the citizens and property of that town?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I have asked for a report on this incident. I wish to make one comment at the present time. I am sure we all deplore the activities of Canadians who would go into another country and tear down the flag of that country.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mitchell William Sharp: Looking at it from our point of view, I am sure nothing would incense us more than to have foreigners come into our country and tear down the Canadian flag.


George Robson Muir: A supplementary question. What action, if any, is being taken against those who crossed the border to invade a peaceful town in a friendly country?


Mitchell William Sharp: As I said, I have asked for inquiries to be made. I am awaiting a report on the exact circumstances.


CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: My
question is for the Minister of Justice. In light of the fact that Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures show that there were only 235 authorized therapeutic abortions approved under the provisions of recent amendments to the Criminal Code in six provinces in three months, and in light of the fact that the figures indicate that many illegal back-alley abortions are still taking place, endangering the lives of poorer and working mothers, will the minister initiate a study of the adequacy of the present law and the need for further amendments removing the whole subject from the realm of criminal law?


Hon. John N. Turner (Minister of Justice):: As I said before in the House, Mr. Speaker, we are reviewing the statistics on a continuing basis to analyse the recent amendments on therapeutic abortion introduced into the Criminal Code during the last session.
May 11, 1970

Inquiries of the Ministry PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS


TEARING OUT OF PANELLING IN CENTRE BLOCK ELEVATORS
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. It is a somewhat embarrassing question. In recent weeks a person or persons have been tearing out the interior panelling of two elevators in the centre block of the House of Commons. If it is not possible to find out who is responsible, I ask the minister to have the interior panelling of these elevators repaired because in its present state it is an embarrassment to members of the House of Commons and their guests.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member is making a suggestion. I am not sure that the matter should be raised at this time by way of a question during the question period. In any event, the hon. member has brought the situation to the attention of the minister and we have to assume that appropriate action will be taken.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Mr. Adrien Lambert (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the President of the Privy Council.
Since the first report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture has been presented to the House on February 17 last-almost three months ago-would the President of the Privy Council say whether he intends to resume shortly the debate on the motion for concurrence in the said report, which appears as No. 74 on today's order paper, since this matter is of great concern to us?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No, Mr. Speaker.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


Gerald William Baldwin: My question is for the Acting Prime Minister. It is

based on an answer given to me on Friday by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development that the Indian Claims Commissioner answers to the Prime Minister. Will the Acting Prime Minister bring to the attention of this commissioner the fact that the Indian and Eskimo people of northern Quebec, according to the transcript of proceedings taken there, have as their main cause of complaint the fact that their lands have been taken without any measure of compensation? This is the No. 1 problem. Could the commissioner be asked to get in touch with these people so that they will duly file their claims?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I will discuss the suggestion with the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I am not as familiar with this matter as I might be since I am only acting as Prime Minister. I will make inquiries.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Inasmuch as such claims are beyond the purview of the commission, I ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the government will approach these people directly and enter into discussions and negotiations with them? This would appear to be a much more sensible way of handling the situation.


Mitchell William Sharp: I thank the hon. member for his suggestion.



IMMIGRATION


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington):: I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Manpower and Immigration. It deals with appeal boards for immigrants. In view of the great increase in the number of appeals and the fact that some of them are as far behind as a year to 18 months, is the minister giving consideration to moving appeal boards into the province of Ontario similar to the experiment conducted in Montreal?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It is proposed to establish as quickly as possible an immigration appeal board in the city of Toronto.
May 11, 1970



CITIZENSHIP


David Lewis: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for either the Secretary of State or the Minister without Portfolio who may be dealing with citizenship matters in the Department of the Secretary of State. I wish to know whether the policies and procedures with regard to citizenship are being reviewed by the Department? Also, is it the minister's intention to table soon any new regulations or policies which may be involved?


Hon. Robert Stanbury (Minister without Portfolio):: A review is going on, Mr. Speaker. When there is a set of proposals or a bill available, it will be brought before the House.


David Lewis: A supplementary. Is the government or the minister considering amendments to the Act or merely amendments to the regulations? What is under review?


Robert Douglas George Stanbury: The entire Canadian Citizenship Act is under review, Mr. Speaker.



PROPOSED U.S. TAX CREDIT FOR EXPORTS- CANADIAN ACTION

Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Lancas-ter):: My question is for the Acting Prime Minister. Is the government studying President Nixon's proposal to offer a tax credit to companies for American exports? If so, is any counter-action contemplated?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I will recognize the right of the Acting Prime Minister to reply to the question. However, it seems that some of the questions now being asked are of a very general nature. I am not sure whether they should be asked at this time. Hon. members are asking about matters which concern general government policy. I have serious doubts whether these questions should be asked at this time. I am not saying this necessarily applies to the question asked by the hon. member for Saint John-Lancaster, and the Acting Prime Minister should be allowed to reply at this time.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the point raised by the hon. member will be brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce who of course have reason to be concerned about developments of this kind.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Thomas Miller Bell: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister is going to be away for some time and in view of the fact that the Prime Minister seems to run everything when he is here, will the Acting Prime Minister ensure that this very important question is answered tomorrow by someone so that the next few days while the Prime Minister is absent will not be entirely wasted?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



LABOUR RELATIONS


Mr. Thomas S. Barnett (Comox-Albemi):: should like to ask the Minister of Labour whether any progress was made over the weekend toward a settlement of the towboat tie-up on the Pacific coast, either through the intervention of his department or through action on the part of the Department of Transport to update the regulations under the Canada Shipping Act with respect to manning and safety?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: The hon. member has asked me two different questions. As far as the first part is concerned, there has been no request from either management or labour for the department to participate in the current dispute between the unions and management. I think it is much too premature for the department to interfere in the dispute at the present time.
As far as the formulation of new regulations is concerned, I believe substantial progress has been made during the past two weeks and I anticipate that meetings will resume fairly shortly.



CANADA ELECTIONS ACT


Mr. Les Benjamin (Regina-Lake Centre):: Can the President of the Privy Council tell the House when he expects the amendments to the Canada Elections Act to be brought down, and which minister will be responsible for piloting them through the House?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: I expect we shall be in a position to give notice of this bill this coming Thursday. I shall be the minister responsible for its progress. I shall be meeting with House Leaders later this afternoon to
May 11. 1970

Inquiries of the Ministry discuss the arrangements in connection with these amendments which we hope will become law by the time the House rises.


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: Is it the intention of the government to request the House to refer this item to the standing committee and, if so, will the standing committee be authorized to travel from place to place and hear briefs from the public?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: No, Mr. Speaker. The proposal we intend to make is that, contrary to the general practice with regard to legislation, the bill should be referred after second reading to the committee of the whole House in view of the fact that hon. members generally are interested in the bill and its provisions.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We
shall be here all summer again.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Mr. Roland Godin (Portneuf):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
In view of the serious poverty problem prevailing in the country, could the minister tell the House whether or not it is his intention to suggest a formula whereby the central government would pay grants to the provinces under Canadian assistance programs so that they might create more jobs and enable the people on welfare to go back to work?


Gérard Pelletier: undertake to acquaint the minister with the question, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest to the minister and the hon. member that this question calls for a general statement which the minister should normally make on motions.



BROADCASTING


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, on April 8 I directed a question to the Secretary of State. He said at that time he would endeavour to get the required information and answer it. The question related to an announcement by the CRTC that it was only renewing the radio station licence of

CKPM for the balance of the present year. Can the minister tell me now whether he has found out what applications have been submitted and if it is a fact that applications were on file prior to this announcement-
[Editor's Note: At this point interruptions from the galleries began.]


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member for Churchill has the floor.
And the disturbance continuing:


Mr. Speaker:: Order please. The protesters should be removed from the galleries immediately.
And the disturbance continuing:


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. Since we are having an easy afternoon I wonder if we might not continue with our question period. Is it the wish of hon. members that we call Orders of the Day? Orders of the Day.
The Clerk Assistant: Government Order No. 1. Consideration of the Business of Supply.
And the disturbance continuing:


Mr. Speaker:: In view of the authority accorded to the Chair by the Standing Orders, I direct that the galleries be cleared.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: All visitors will be removed from the galleries.
And the disturbance continuing:


Mr. Speaker:: In view of the difficulties, I suggest that the sitting be suspended.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: The sitting of the House stands suspended for the moment.



SITTING SUSPENDED

[Stage Direction]
At 2.46 p.m. the sitting of the House was suspended.

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed at 3.20 p.m.


Mr. Romuald Rodrigue (Beauce) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should take all necessary steps to increase
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
consumer purchasing power to meet their need and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.

He said: Mr. Speaker, it was after serious consideration that the Ralliement creditiste decided to introduce the motion now before the House.
Mr. Speaker, when going through the commercial section of Canadian cities, we are amazed to see that the counters and windows of all department stores and even of small shops are chock-full of products, of merchandise of all kinds, in one word, of commodities that the consumers want and that are good for them, in the sectors of food, clothing, furniture, housing, sports and leisure, culture and entertainment.
Yet, there are no buyers for those commodities everyone wants. In desperation, business owners strain their ingenuity to find ways of attracting customers. They are even prepared to take a small deposit on credit sales.
While there is an excess of stocks over demand and purchasing power, some plants are operating at 60, 70 or 80 per cent of their capacity, particularly in the textile, shoe and automobile industries.
Other plants announce temporary lay-offs for one or two weeks or even longer. In Montreal, an article in La Presse of May 6, announces the closing of the Canadian General Electric plant for two weeks from May 25. A thousand workers will be laid-off on that date.
On the other hand, a bulletin dated May 8 from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics shows that the sale of cars has continued to decrease during March and indicates a decline of 17.3 per cent compared to the corresponding month last year.
In spite of those facts, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) and the governor of the Bank of Canada still maintain and this for the benefit of the fight against inflation, that total consumer demand is in excess. This merely means that we are buying too much, according to the minister.
Now when stores and warehouses are full, plants are closing and reducing their production to a minimum, it is surely not because there is an excess demand, but it is due to the fact that consumers do not have the necessary purchasing power. Very obvious facts contradict the Finance Minister's statements, Mr. Speaker. There is an abundance of products
DEBATES	6797
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation to meet all requirements. However, this aim cannot be reached on account of the lack of money of potential buyers who are therefore unable to purchase at present prices the goods which would satisfy their needs. You may say, "They still do it". At times they succeed for a while in satisfying their needs at the expense of running into debt through credit buying. This is a general situation as anyone can see that a great portion of the population is snowed under with bills.
A bulletin published by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics states that, according to answers received, indebtedness reached a partial total of $10,062 million at the end of January 1970, compared to $9,049 million at the end of January 1969, that is a rise of 11.2 per cent in 12 months.
Mr. Speaker, finance and loan companies are the ones who have benefitted from this increase of more than $1 billion in Canadian indebtedness between January 1969 and January 1970.
In the field of personal loans, for instance, the increase in 1969 exceeded $200 million, or 33J per cent. Besides, as the banks are restricting credit and the finance companies have more difficulties in obtaining capital for loans, Canadians are mortgaging their insurance policies.
In the 1969-70 fiscal year life insurance companies have seen their loans on policies increase from $556 to $645 million, namely a rise of 17.1 per cent. That is one of the effects of the government policy on prices and of its fight against inflation: sustained indebtedness. The fact that the population in general is running into debt is another sign that purchasing power is lacking. People are trying by every possible means to improve the situation, even agreeing to pay very high rates of interest.
Mr. Speaker, this is alarming and it greatly worries responsible organizations like the Canadian Welfare Council which has just published a study on the matter. I would like to quote the following extract:
These findings come from an investigation carried out in Hamilton on 235 low income families.
The report points out that a quarter of these families have debts amounting to over 25 per cent of their gross annual income.
When they have paid for food, clothing, rent and debts, these families have only $40.00 left a month.
More than one family out of five in the families sampled live below the poverty line, as determined by the Economic Council of Canada. Their expenses are noticeably higher than authorized by the income at their disposal to resort to credit.
May 11. 1970
6798	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
Moreover, the report suggests that the possibility to grant low interest rate loans, guaranteed by the government, to low income families should be considered.
Here is, Mr. Speaker, another consequence of the desastrous government policy as regards the rise in prices and the fight against inflation. Canadian families get more and more into debts, in order to satisfy their needs, and this at such a rate that the Canadian Welfare Council thought advisable to advocate granting with the guarantee of the government, low interest rate loans to low income families in order to get them out of the predicament in which a lot of them find themselves owing to credit restriction policies and the rise in interest rates.
We could talk about people on fixed income, such as pensioners, family and welfare allowance recipients, small non-unionized labourers-and God knows how many there are-who do not have the necessary powers of persuasion to get the salary increases that would allow them to purchase a variety of goods and services that the fruit of then-labour brought them not long ago.
As far as the beneficiaries of family allowances and old age pensions are concerned, the government continues to turn a deaf ear to their demands.
We are short of goods and services? Can we not ensure additional goods and services to these underprivileged classes?
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
No, because affluence does exist. The only thing lacking is the ownership. But the situation is still worse. Even though families are forced into debt in order to cope with rising prices and meet their most legitimate needs, that is not enough to save dealers, contractors and manufacturers from bankruptcy.
On April 8 last, the Dominion Bureau of Statistics published a summary study of business failures in Canada for these last few months, from which I quote:
According to tentative figures, there were 769 bankruptcies during the fourth quarter of 1969. This figure represents an increase of 19 per cent over the figure for the corresponding period in 1968, when the number of bankruptcies was 645. Liabilities of bankrupt firms were estimated at $62,697,000, i.e. 49 per cent more than the $41,901,000 for the corresponding quarter in 1968.
There we have, Mr. Speaker, the rather gloomy picture of the Canadian economy as a result of the government's policies regarding credit and the fight against inflation.

For instance, an analysis of the labour statistics issued by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics reveals that the number of persons employed increased by 20,000 from February to March, 1970 and that the number of unemployed increased by 16,000 to reach the figure of 542,000 while in the previous years, for the same period, the number of unemployed had shown little change and sometimes had even decreased.
If this analysis is carried out further, it shows that, compared to last year, the labour force has increased by 148,000 workers, or by 1.9 per cent. Over the same period, the number of persons employed has increased by only 54,000, or %o of one per cent while the number of unemployed increased by 94,000 over the previous year.
It is therefore obvious that the government's policy to fight inflation is disastrous for the Canadian workers and the Canadian families, because it contributes to increased unemployment and greater hardship for a larger number of Canadian families.
This is why in my view we have to criticize the government's policy with respect to prices and to inflation. Indeed this policy is weakening more and more the Canadian economy. For this reason among others the Ralliement creditiste condemns the policy of the government and urges the cabinet to take efficient measures to control the rise in prices and inflation so that Canadians can enjoy a better life and more security.
Anyway the Creditistes are not alone in asserting that this policy of restrictions, of increased unemployment, of indebtedness and bankruptcy, which is wanted by the government, in order to fight inflation, has disastrous effects, because it is wrong, pernicious and unrealistic.
One of the thinkers of the federal Liberal party, who now sits in the other place, hon. Senator Maurice Lamontagne, recently gave a piece of his mind to the people who control and promote government policies in a speech he delivered to the shareholders of the Canadian Corporate Management Company, which was published almost verbatim in Le Devoir of April 23 last. Here is what the hon. senator said in part when dealing with the policies of the Canadian Minister of Finance and of the Governor of the Bank of Canada.
Quoting the Minister of Finance, senator Lamontagne said, and I quote:
If we had only to concern ourselves with the over-all demend on our productive capacity and on our markets, no further action would be necessary.
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
But the government announced right after his intention to tighten consumer credit, which can only result in dealing a new blow to the poorest citizens and weakening even further the sector of the economy which is already the weakest, that is the industry of durable consumer goods.
The governor of the Bank of Canada spoke in the same vein when he wrote in his report, and I quote:
The purpose of restraint is not to slow down the economy for its own sake but as a means of slowing down the price and cost increase in order to provide a solid base for sustainable economic expansion.
Senator Lamontagne went on to say that the present Liberal government policies are aberrant, illogical and erroneous. I quote:
Those statements (Mr. Benson's and Mr. Rasmin-sky's) and similar ones made in the United States, in particular by Mr. Arthur Burns, make me wonder about the concept that was generally accepted after the war with regards to fiscal and monetary policies in the fight against inflation.
I feel that we are witnessing in that field, and this in several countries of the western world, including perhaps the United States, the worst aberration since the depression of the '30s.
Senator Lamontagne, at one time economic adviser to the former prime minister, at one time minister in the Liberal government, and who now sits in the other place as an influential member of the Liberal party, claims that the policy of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) and that of the governor of the Bank of Canada are aberrant, illogical, erroneous. He added, and I quote:
-that those policies are leading us to the economic stagnation of the 1930s.
And he closed saying:
I have no hesitation in saying that the fiscal and monetary policies of the cyclical type designed to reduce demand, constitute an awkward, inefficient and unrealistic way of combatting an evil stemming mainly from structural and permanent causes in supply.
According to Senator Lamontagne, inflation, price increases derive from structural and permanent causes. Now, it would be interesting to know what are those permanent and structural causes. We are therefore dealing with the present structures, which are the cause of the increase in prices and which are permanent.
In a lecture entitled "INFLATION, its causes and its consequences", Dr. Rosario Cousineau, director of the Department of Commerce of the University of Sherbrooke, stressed the main causes of inflation at the
DEBATES	6799
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation conference of the Chamber of Commerce of the province of Quebec. I shall quote three of the main causes mentioned by professor Cousineau:
1.	Combines, Trusts and Monopolies:
Modern technique calls for heavy investments and leads to the creation of big enterprises. Small enterprise can only subsist in such fields where manufacturing calls for the personal care of the craftsman or in cases where it remains the provider of parts and accessories for big industry.
The danger here is that big enterprises could absorb their suppliers and competitors. Economists and sociologists charge that combines, trusts and monopolies are the cause of inflation. They are often right to the extent that the enterprises monopolize natural resources and avail themselves of their privileged conditions to increase their prices and extend their profit margin, without any supplementary allotment of salaries-
2.	Taxes and duties of all kinds:
Public expenditures are another cause of inflation. The liberalities of public powers give way to taxes and duties that weigh heavily on the price of products and personal incomes. As a result, consumer prices increase without any corresponding increase in purchasing power.
3.	Bank and monetary policy:
I do not intend to debate whether banks create money, but we can assert that they do create credit, that they multiply their deposits and their own assets 10 or 15 times (16 at the present time).
That is another cause of inflation.
As reported on page 2740 of the minutes of proceedings of the Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs, the governor of the Bank of Canada referred to those who believe that the rise in interest rates increases costs, without making too much of that fact. I quote part of his statement:
I know the view is sometimes expressed that high interest rates are themselves inflationary because they increase costs of those who do succeed in borrowing money.
And he added that the rise in interests is meant to prompt people to spend less or not at all.
This is Mr. Rasminsky's opinion which senator Lamontagne considers preposterous, unrealistic, not to say stupid. However, Mr. Rasminsky may well say that the interest rates are being increased so as to prompt people to abstain from borrowing and spending, the fact remains that the industrialist who is sure of making a 20 or 25 per cent profit on a given production is not bothered too much by the interest payable on his loans, even at 10 per cent.
As before, his prices will have to cover the cost of raw materials, salaries and wages,
6800	COMMONS DEBATES	May 11, 1970
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation transportation and communication costs, depreciation and interests for a given period and a given production.
Let us suppose that the total cost of production, including his salary or profit, is $10,000, which would be exactly the amount borrowed, and that this whole amount is invested in production. But as production has only involved allocation of $10,000 which he will have to borrow, plus $1,000 interest, if he does not want to go bankrupt, he will necessarily have to recover $11,000 when he sells his goods, which is $1,000 more than was fed into the production cycle.
On the other hand, let us suppose that the contractor must also meet a $1,000 increase in wages because his employees want to make up for the delay or the loss of $1,000 in purchasing power caused by the $1,000 increase in prices due to the interest charges paid at the end of the production cycle.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
To avoid any loss, the employer will have to raise his prices by $1,000 so that the total price of the new production will be $12,000, at the end of the production cycle.
From which the Creditistes conclude as follows: All the sums paid out during a certain production period are included in the prices, but are not distributed to consumers as purchasing power as in the case of interest on borrowed capital that is given to other organizations. The result is a loss in purchasing power which is constantly increasing, as a result of higher interest cost, because of depreciation allowances and fixed costs.
To remedy the situation, we must increase the purchasing power of consumers with new credits which are not included in the costs or in the prices. Those new credits could take the form of payments made directly to all Canadian consumers or by lowering prices, they could increase the purchasing power.
In the first case, it is a national dividend, in the second, the compensated discount which the Creditistes are calling for.
Why these two proposals? As explained earlier, the national dividend does not constitute new money because it is not included in prices and it will not lead to price increases. Certain dealers however, realizing that consumers would have more money, might be tempted to take advantage of the situation by boosting their prices.
Any serious monetary reform must therefore take this human factor into account and

establish the machinery capable of checking unjustified price increases. To this end, Social Crediters advocate a technique likely to check inflation.
Besides, here is what major Douglas had to say before the Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa in 1934, and I quote:
It is possible to apply an increased purchasing power to a price decrease. One of those means is through subsidies. For instance, subsidies are paid to butter producers so that the price of that commodity will not increase.
In conventional circles, it is believed that this mechanism can only be used through taxation. But that is not absolutely necessary, except if one assumes that the purchasing power is already greater than the goods and services offered.
However, the subsidy can be provided by creating a new purchasing power, that is by doing like banks when they make loans while creating credit. Nobody has ever claimed that if the merchant marine is subsidized, an increase in shipping rates will ensue. To the contrary, they will decrease. The same would apply to other goods and services and subsequently, it might be possible to increase the purchasing power of the country in this manner, without causing any losses to the producers.
When he speaks of inflation, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) would have us believe that demand is greater than production.
Now, in 1969-70, in spite of what the minister may say, the total consumer demand is short. Actually it is not equal to the country's productive capacity, and the policies put forward by the government and the minister are devised to decrease demand, which is already inadequate.
What the minister refuses to admit, is that there are two kinds of inflation: the one to which he refers, where demand is greater than supply, and the one to which he never refers, which results from structural and permanent causes in the field of supply.
I would like to point out to the minister that the inflation to which he refers is not a conjunctural but a structural inflation. It is therefore imperative to change the structures.
The present problem is a problem of demand and the minister knows it.
Keynes, the economist, whose philosophy has been acknowledged by most of the free world countries and has inspired the thought of the Canadian government and of the Minister of Finance, has convinced the world that the problem arose not from production but from demand. Expansionist monetary policies were later enforced in order to increase the consuming capacity of the individuals.
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
The minister is running counter to this philosophy.
Just have a look at the writings of the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) when he was Minister of Justice, and you will realize that the motto of the "just society" was nothing but a slogan for the time of the elections. Indeed, at pages 16 and 27 of "A Canadian Charter of Human Rights" the author of which is the Prime Minister himself, then Minister of Justice, one may read the following, and I quote:
Rights which may included in a bill of the sort under consideration here fall into five broad categories : political, legal, egalitarian, linguistic, and economic.
Economic Rights
The kind of rights referred to here are those which seek to ensure some advantage to the individual and which require positive action by the state. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for example, included such rights as the right to work, the right to protection against unemployment, the right to form and join trade unions, the right to social security, the right to rest and leisure, the right to an adequate standard of living, the right to education, and the right to participate in the cultural life of the community. The United Nations Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights adopted by the General Assembly in 1966 included and elaborated upon these rights.
The guarantee of such economic rights is desirable and should be an ultimate objective for Canada. There are, however, good reasons for putting aside this issue at this stage and proceeding with the protection of political, legal, egalitarian and linguistic rights. It might take considerable time to reach agreement on the rights to be guaranteed and on the feasibility of implementation.
It is therefore suggested that it is advisable not to attempt to include economic rights in the constitutional bill of rights at this time.
Such is the Prime Minister's approach to to the economic problems. No wonder if the government has no solutions to solve them.
First of all, it has no solutions to offer. Secondly, according to the Prime Minister, their application might be a very long undertaking.
To those who may again mention the "just society", I may ask the following question: For whom and for when?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, this motion calls for two things: first, an increase in consumer purchasing power, which in plain English is the putting of more money into the pockets of the
DEBATES	6801
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation Canadian people, the workers of this country, by increasing employment; and second, it calls for the introduction of techniques to check rising costs and combat inflation. We in the official opposition agree completely with these two objectives but disagree very strongly with the policies which the movers of this motion would use to bring about these ends.
I should like to take a few moments this afternoon to outline very briefly the kinds of steps that we in the official opposition would take to bring about these two very desirable ends of increasing employment and checking rising costs and rising inflation. First of all, let us look at what the government has been doing for the past three years. For three years, Mr. Speaker, we have seen steadily rising interest rates brought about by a definite government policy which has not only raised interest rates but kept them abnormally high. We have had three years of steadily increasing inflation. It has been increasing at an accelerating rate each year. Today 6.7 per cent of the work force is unemployed, the highest rate of unemployment which this country has experienced in six years. Every indication is that unemployment will rise still further in the months ahead.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)


Some hon. Members:: Shame!


George Harris Hees: 
Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


George Harris Hees: Second, we must offer tax incentives to increase productivity and thereby lower costs and prices. I have suggested several times in this House a practical way of offering such a tax incentive. A company should be offered a tax rebate amounting to 2 k per cent of its corporate profits' for the year if it can show at the end of the year that its average weighted increase in prices during the year of all its products did not exceed the 2i per cent increase each year which the government has said falls within the accepted guideline for price increases.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


George Harris Hees: They should be offered a further incentive of a rebate of 1 per cent a year for each 1 per cent lower than the 2J per cent by which the company raised its prices during the year, down to zero. Therefore, if a company did not increase its prices during the year, it would be entitled to a 5 per cent rebate of the tax on its corporate profits. This would not cost the taxpayers of this country or the government one penny. These tax rebates would be made up many times over in the years ahead by three means.
First, there would be the increased income taxes which would be paid by those additional workers who would be earning an income on which they would be paying income tax instead of drawing unemployment insurance. Second, there would be increased revenue from commodity taxes because a considerably larger amount of commodities would be bought on which tax would be payable. Third, the revenue from corporation taxes would increase considerably because there would be more profits to tax.
This method of providing a tax incentive to increase productivity is practical. As I have said, it would not cost the government or the taxpayers of Canada one penny. It would give encouragement to industry to purchase the new plant, machinery and production systems that are necessary to decrease production costs and lower prices.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


George Harris Hees: The proof of that statement is in the statistics which compare Canada's export activity with that of our principal competitors. During 1969, Canada's rate of increase of exports was only one-half of the rate of increase of Great Britain, the United States and Japan. It was only one-third of the rate of increase of our ten major European competitors.


Some hon. Members:: Shame!


George Harris Hees: From that we see that there was and is a great deal of new potential export business to be had. Canada shamefully is not getting nearly her share of that new business. We must go out and fight for that new business in the same way the Conservative government fought for new business in the early part of the 1960's. We turned 10 years of Liberal trade deficits in one year into a trade surplus and laid the foundation for the prosperity which this country has experienced in the last decade.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


George Harris Hees: How can we go about accomplishing this? We would do five things. First, we would greatly increase the number of trade missions going abroad from Canada today into other countries to show Canadian producers what the foreign markets amount to and what they have to produce to compete. We would show them what they have to meet in the way of competition in order to make sales. They, in turn, would bring that information back to their trade associations and, as was done ten years ago, make it possible for Canadians to make their products far more attractive, more competitive and thus saleable in far greater quantities.
Second, we would greatly increase the participation of Canadian producers in trade fairs all over the world. There are trade fairs where Canadians can show their products. When we were in government we showed ourselves to a very large extent. However, today this government seems to have lost
May IX. 1970	COMMONS
interest in doing so. People are not nearly enough aware of what Canada has to offer and, therefore, our sales are falling off from what they could and should be.
We would bring in a great many more buyer missions to Canada to show them trade fairs. We would conduct them around the country to our large manufacturing centres to show them what Canadians produce in our plants for our home market. We would show them attractive trade fairs in our major cities, as we did when we had the responsibility for our export trade a number of years ago.
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)
Fourth, we would greatly extend export credits to make it possible for customers all over the world to buy Canadian products on time. When we were responsible for these affairs we started selling wheat to China on credit. We were laughed at by the Liberal opposition; we were told we would never be able to collect payment. We collected every cent we were owed, and we began a great trade drive to sell wheat which made it possible for our farmers to grow increasing quantities of wheat year by year instead of being told to stop growing wheat and put their land to fallow as this bankrupt government has done today. This government has no better advice to give than: Stop growing wheat, because we have completely failed to sell Canadian wheat. We would make it possible to buy on credit. After all, we all buy on credit. People all over the world need credit. As long as it is properly investigated and as long as the buyer has, basically, a sound financial status, the seller takes little risk of not being paid. Our results were extremely good.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


George Harris Hees: The final step would be greatly to expand export insurance to make certain that producers in this country would collect in the event of non-payment of money due from customers abroad. This would encourage many small and medium-sized businesses to sell their goods abroad in the assurance that they would not suffer loss, leading to greater willingness on their part to go into the world market and make those extra sales which tip the balance as between profit and loss, and decide whether a small firm will remain small or whether it will expand into a medium or large size enterprise employing so many more Canadians for the good of the country.
DEBATES	6803
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
By doing these things we could lower costs and lower prices, keep inflation within reasonable bounds. We could make our products more competitive; we could increase our sales abroad, with the result that employment opportunities would grow. We could put a stop to the increase in unemployment which is taking place day by day under this do-nothing government, bring about a healthier economic outlook and make this country of ours a better country in which to live.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. John Burton (Regina East):: Mr. Speaker, for two years the Liberal government has persisted in following economic policies which are sterile and barren and which have done great harm to the people of Canada. The governments policies demonstrate intellectual bankruptcy to a degree I never thought I would see displayed by a government in Canada. They reflect a total lack of morality in terms of its approach to public affairs. The governments' economic policies are morally bankrupt. To accept policies which lead to or allow a high level of unemployment is morally wrong.
We know what the present picture is in Canada. The level of unemployment across the nation stands at 6.7 per cent. According to the latest figures, 542,000 are out of work; I believe the real figure would be much higher if consideration were given to all the factors related to unemployment which should be taken into account. The government's stated objective in terms of its economic policies is to carry on an anti-inflationary program. It has rigidly adhered to an outdated, unworkable approach in seeking to reach its objectives. These policies are not working; the rate of price increases is as high as ever. Over the past few years we have witnessed rates of increase approaching 5 per cent per annum and there is no sign of a halt to this process. According to the latest figures, the consumer price index stood at 128.9 in March of 1970 as compared with 123.2 in March of 1969. This is an increase of 5.7 points, or 4.6 per cent. Other systems of measurement have shown similar rates of increase over the past several months.
I maintain that in its approach to present economic difficulties the government has relied on a faulty analysis of the situation. It is trying to say this is a case of too many dollars chasing too few goods. But no one can argue with any validity that there are too few goods in Canada today. So if we are to solve
6804	COMMONS DEBATES	May 11. 1970
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation the economic difficulties we face, it is necessary to develop a new analysis. The only solution this government can offer is the same old menu which has become so tasteless over the past few years, the same old menu of monetary controls and fiscal restraint. Monetary controls are as tight as we have ever witnessed in our history. They have been in existence since 1968. Who has benefitted from them? We know that the profits of most of the banks are up and that the profits of a good many corporations have also increased; some have continued to rise in the first part of 1970 in spite of the more difficult situation to which certain spokesmen like to refer. It seems the government is trying to make the public believe that things will get better, that an improvement is just around the corner, that if the screws are kept on a little longer, or perhaps turned a little tighter, all will be well. In dealing with this question over the past few years, the government has had a phobia about the state of affairs which can be summed up in the term "inflationary psychology". Out of this concept, a myth was created which has led to a faulty analysis of our economic situation. This inflationary psychology to which government spokesmen have referred will continue because the very people who are causing inflation are unafraid of any of the policies which the government might introduce.
I object to the government's fiscal policies and to its fiscal restraints. In the first place, they automatically set a lower value on public expenditure than on private expenditure. I wish to make it clear that in my view all expenditure should be subjected to adequate criteria for determining whether it is worth while, whether it will contribute to desirable social objectives. Both private and public expenditure should be subject to such an analysis.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)
In addition, I suggest that the government's program of fiscal restraint is hurting many essential programs which do contribute to the welfare of Canada and the well-being of many people in this country. I have already mentioned the unemployment figures in Canada. Half a million people are out of work or 6.7 per cent. We have witnessed a considerable slowing down of the economy. I think the regional impact of the slow-down should be noted. In the Atlantic provinces at the present time the rate of unemployment is approaching 11 per cent. In Quebec the figure

is over 9 per cent. In my own province of Saskatchewan, the official figure was 7.4 per cent this winter. I suggest that an effective analysis of the real unemployment situation would show a true level of well over 10 per cent. I suggest also that this type of situation is contributing to disunity in Canada and is doing immense harm to individuals, families, communities and to Canada as a whole. A while back we witnessed the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) making a statement in which he said he was quite prepared to accept an unemployment level of 6 per cent in order to carry through the government's anti-inflationary program. We have the 6 per cent now. It is well over 6 per cent; it is 6.7 per cent. Now, we see the Prime Minister trying to weasel out of the statement by saying what he was really thinking about was the seasonally adjusted figure. I suggest that the approach of the Prime Minister and the government in dealing with this problem is morally wrong and is not working in terms of attaining the objectives the government has set for itself in its economic policies. It is no longer a question of whether this policy is leading to a recession because the fact is Canada is in a recession right now, as is the United States.
Of course, there are many quotations I could give to support this statement. A great many analysts and economists have taken a look at the economic situation. They have made this point quite clear. Professor Seymour Friedland, Director of the Capital Markets Research Program at York University, commented recently as follows:
The question is no longer whether we are going to have a recession-we already have a recession -but how serious the recession will be.
Thus, I think we have to take note as well of the many people in Canada and in the United States who have called for a change of direction in the focus of our policy. I think we need to act now and make changes. In fact, some of these changes should have been instituted and brought into effect some time ago because many of the economic policies to deal with our present situation take some time to take hold and have an effect or impact on the economy. The Citibank of New York recently commented that it is much better to act now at the risk of some threat of further inflation than allow the economy to slow down even further. It seems to me the government has failed to take note of the changed nature of the country's economy. We live in an economy which no longer is regu-
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
lated by market forces or the old law of supply and demand. We live in a managed economy where corporations have gained control over price setting. They dictate policies in terms of their own interests rather than in terms of the interests of the economy as a whole.
We also have the problem of the United States domination and control of the Canadian economy. I could give many examples of this particular phenomena which should be noted by the government. The government's attitude, however, seems to be one of unwillingness to tackle the corporate problem in Canada. Recently, we had a good example in respect of the problems in the uranium industry in Canada. We had a very strong statement from the Prime Minister on March 2 and on a couple of subsequent dates. More recently, we had a great watering down of that first announcement when the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Greene) finally made his announcement on the thrust of the regulations. For some time this government has been promising the people of Canada and this House that it would come forward with a policy to deal with the problems of foreign ownership of much of the Canadian economy. When are we to see this policy? The latest indication is that it will not be before the fall, but earlier indications were it would be some time this spring or possibly after the Easter adjournment. Now, they are talking about the fall. This is the type of never-never land, in which the government seems to exist in respect of handling most public affairs.
The government's position seems to be summed up for the most part in the Prices and Incomes Commission which it established. I suggest that this commission has become the laughing-stock of Canada. It is no laughing matter for the people who are in distress in Canada. This commission has come up with a public relations approach to economic policies. These policies were doomed to failure from the start because the commission did not have the necessary powers to carry them through. The commission set about looking for voluntary commitments on the part of businesses but when translated into effect for labour, the organized workers working for wages in this country, the policy would come out in the form of a contract. To me this would seem to be a fundamental question. Now, we have the Prices and Incomes Commission trying to pillory the labour movement. I suggest that in doing so it
DEBATES	6805
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation is doing a disservice to the people of Canada. This is an irresponsible approach. I suggest that labour is prepared to sit down and talk at any time when it is not being made the goat or at a time when the deck is not stacked against it. Certainly the labour movement has indicated it is prepared to sit down and talk about a comprehensive approach to economic problems. I suggest that the best thing to do now would be to scrap the Prices and Incomes Commission and make a fresh start on the situation.
The second thing the government has done recently has been in respect to the budget. It decided basically to keep the screws on, as it had in the past year and a half or two years. After some reflection the government decided it would have to do a little more and introduce consumer credit controls. Where are they? It is now some two months since the budget and we still do not have the legislation. I suggest the government is having great difficulty in preparing adequate legislation at this time. I suggest when it came to putting legislation into draft form, it was found that there had been basic changes in the Canadian economy which had not been realized fully by the government until the members of the government sat down to take a look at this particular matter.
The government acts as if there were no alternative in respect of its present policy. I suggest this is not the case. The hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. Saltsman) and myself, on behalf of the New Democratic members of the House of Commons, issued some time ago a minority report to a report tabled by the Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs of this House. In that report, we rejected the government's approach to economic policies. We called for a comprehensive incomes policy. We called for control of credit and capital allocation. We called for compensation for victims of inflation, and for other measures including such steps as a return to flexible exchange rates. Thus, I call on the government to reverse its economic policies before they lead to disastrous consequences for the Canadian economy and the Canadian people.
It seems to me there are a number of specific steps the government should take immediately to deal with the serious situation which faces the Canadian economy. First, I suggest that programs should be introduced immediately to stimulate employment, particularly by means of public works programs.
May 11. 1970
6806	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
Second, I suggest there should be a step-up in public spending on essential programs. I refer to the housing program particularly because Canada faces a housing crisis. I would also mention the situation in respect of depressed industries in Canada, and particularly I would note the situation facing the agricultural industry in many parts of Canada and western Canada especially. Third, I suggest that steps should be taken to compensate victims on inflation. Here, I make particular reference to the plight of old age pensioners and of veterans. Certainly, I think the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) is to be commended for the resolution which he sponsored in the House last week which called upon the government to take immediate steps to improve the situation of these people. It called for a sharp step-up in the pensions of elderly citizens in Canada and of veterans.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)
Fourth, I think we need to replace the Prices and Incomes Commission with a body that is equipped to start work on a comprehensive incomes policy. This is going to take some time to develop. It is a difficult task and I do not underestimate the difficulties involved, but we must start on this task now. Fifth, I suggest we should place selective controls on key industries involving their capital allocation, their capital programs, their prices, and so on.
Sixth, I think we should have the immediate establishment of the Canada Development Corporation which could take steps to stimulate economic development in Canada, which could also take steps which would have the effect of placing a greater share of the Canadian economy under the control of Canadians. This legislation was promised for this session. Where is it? Are we going to see it this session? I suggest that the government has been keeping very quiet about this matter lately.
Seventh, I suggest that steps should be taken to reduce Canada's dependence upon the U.S. economy. One thing we did agree upon in the Finance Committee was that in effect, a good deal of our inflation is imported. One reason for that is the degree of our dependence on the U.S. economy, the fact that such a large proportion of the Canadian economy is controlled by U.S. interests. Another reason also is that decisions on economic activity in Canada are made outside of our own national borders and they are

made in the interests of the corporate shareholders, not in the interests of Canadian people.
Thus, I suggest that the government should make a fundamental change in its economic policies, that it should embark upon a new course if in fact Canada is to be saved from a very serious setback in its economic wellbeing and in the welfare of people throughout Canada.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, the motion now before the House is self-explanatory. It reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should take all necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power to meet their needs and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.
Mr. Speaker, there are many who do not yet understand fully the methods advocated by the Ralliement creditiste, which are derived from the creditist doctrine and philosophy.
The hon. member for Prince Edward-Has-tings (Mr. Hees) was saying a moment ago that he agreed with the contents of the motion but not with the methods advocated to combat inflation or to give some balance to the Canadian economy. The hon. member spoke about full employment and the rise in the cost of living. He suggested that it was up to the government to control inflation, but that he did not accept the solution put forward by the Creditistes. Then, he added in one breath: Let us produce more, so that we can replace the products sold, thus creating new jobs.
Mr. Speaker, arguments as stupid as those which the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings is using have been heard since the 1929 economic recession. What does he know about Social credit? Nothing! Has he ever studied the Creditiste tenets? Never! He has read newspapers and drawn his information from that source. He has read a great many things except the Creditiste creed. If he were asked what is wrong with the present system of financing he would not know. And yet he has the nerve to say that he does not understand Social Credit.
The same nail must be hit over and over again before it finally sinks in.
Former presidents of the United States who were no fools by any means, among -whom Johns Adams, who was president in
May 11. 1970

1824, about 160 years ago, were already in favour of Social Credit. Indeed, Mr. Adams said this:
The difficulties, confusion and anxiety of the United States proceed less from the weak points of their constitution, from their confederation, from a lack of honour or of virtue, than from the sheer ignorance of the nature of money, credit and currency circulation.
The same thing might be said presently about Canada. The difficulties, and they exist, are numerous. We were able to note that in Parliament this afternoon. Girls of 12 or 13, in the galleries, started to shout in protest against the fact that it is necessary to pay to procure an abortion.
Women want free abortion. It would be quite easy for them to have nothing to pay: all they would have to do is to remain single; then, they would not have to pay the cost of an abortion.
The experience we had this afternoon is not of a monetary character. If we considered the matter fully, we might find that it is through. When a mother is unable to guarantee the security of her children, then perhaps we might promote free abortions. In any event, I do not think that money matters have incited the young girls, 12 or 13 years of age, who came to protest in the galleries.
Why do strikers come to protest in front of the Parliament buildings? Because they want greater purchasing power. Others want poverty to be abolished. We are presently living in a tower of Babel. Some suggest one solution, others the very opposite.
People destroy one another in a crazy system. Instead of changing the system, we continue to make violent and noisy demonstrations, and all for nothing. As a matter of fact, the poor unfortunate ones pay for the failure of the system.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)
Taking into account, John Adams' theories, we come to the conclusion that the difficulties, confusion and distress in Canada at present are not as much the result of weaknesses in our constitution, as of a lack of honour or virtue, and of sheer ignorance of the nature of currency, credit and money circulation.
I realize that the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings is usually slow to understand. But if he is asked what he knows about financial or monetary matters, or about the issue of currency and the manner in which
DEBATES	6807
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation money is created, he knows nothing at all on that score, and that is why he rejects Credi-tiste proposals.
The same applies to government members. The minister who is reading a document does not know much more about it than the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings. They do not understand but they are ready to turn us into ridicule.
A few days ago, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture, the hon. member for Richelieu (Mr. Cote) said: Do you think the leader of the Ralliement crddi-tiste makes interest-free loans when he sells cars.
What a find! How sensible to say that the hon. member for Temiscamingue sells cars through lending companies instead of financing himself, the sale of his automobiles.
We have been repeating for 15, 20, 30 years that the public sector should be administered through interest-free loans, so as to enable municipalities, school boards and provinces to free themselves from their financial difficulties. On the other hand, we also say that the private sector must keep on financing itself through the usual channels, namely banks, credit unions and finance companies. To ask if I am going to replace the Traders Finance, what a stroke of genius! And such a fellow is elected to the House by people who believe the boys from Abitibi are ignorant. I have never seen so much crass ignorance as I did the other day in the member for Richelieu and the city of Montreal.
Mr. Speaker, another American president, Abraham Lincoln, said, and I quote:
I have two great enemies: The army for the South, which is in front of me, and the financial institutions which are behind. The most formidable is that which stands behind me.
Not the one in front of me, but the one behind me. I resume Lincoln's quotation:
-The government should create, issue and put in circulation all the money required to meet the spending powers of the government and the purchasing power of the consumers.
I wonder if the members can understand Lincoln's words. He did not say production should be limited according to the purchasing power, but rather, and I go back to the quotation:
-issue and put in circulation all the money required to meet the spending powers of the government and the purchasing power of the consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of the government, but also its greatest opportunity to create something. The citizens can be, and will be
May 11. 1970

Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation provided with money that is as sound as their country itself. Money will cease to be the master to become the servant of the people. Democracy will control the power of money.
Mr. Speaker, to my mind, those words are clear enough. What is the problem of Canada at this time? Poverty in the midst of abundance!
The hon. member for Prince Edward-Has-tings said a moment ago: "Let us produce more in order to replace the commodities we have sold." But before thinking of replacing the goods one has sold, one must first sell them. This is impossible today because the people have no purchasing power. The government does not seem to understand this, neither does the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings. We are procrastinating and wondering whether we should provide full employment in order to produce more unfortunately, we can hardly rid ourselves of the products we already have.
The problem, Mr. Speaker, is not one of production. May I quote from an article on poverty which appeared in Le Devoir, on May 8, 1970, and which reads as follows:
A 59-year old woman from Montreal who appeared-
-before the Senate committee, not in Japan or in India, but here in Ottawa-
-stirred a deep emotion during a hearing of the Senate committee now studying poverty in Canada. Mrs. Gladys Boyd, who appeared before the senators at the request of the Montreal Family Services Association, made a dramatic appeal in favour of the disadvantaged people. In simple but clear language, she said that the poor are now organizing across this country to assert their rights to live.
Not the right to luxury but the right to life.
Then in a sobbing voice, she cried: "I beseech you, honourable senators, do not wait until we are too angry."
The Association tabled before the committee a brief calling the attention of the senators to the fate of unfortunate people, unable, for instance, to meet their medical and legal fees. For instance, Mrs. Boyd earns a maximum annual income of $3,700 from a rooming house; she raises three adopted children. Each month, she explained, to balance her budget, she has to draw on her modest savings. They are running out quickly and will not last until she gets the old age pension. Therefore, she is afraid of losing the house which is her livelihood, since she rents rooms on a weekly basis.
Another Montrealer, Mrs. McIntyre, stated before the senators that she has to support five children and gets $213 per month in welfare allowances. "We do not live, "she said, "we exist."
That woman gets $213 per month. She has five children. Therefore six people have to live on that. Even if the marketing or the
[Mr. Caouette.l
whole Canadian production were better organized and we made the best clothing, the best cars, the best food-stuffs, the best cheese, the best milk, that woman could buy very little with a monthly income of $213.
Is that a matter of either increasing production or organizing purchasing power so that that lady can buy the production? Are we going to ask to Mrs. McIntyre to clean offices at night and to take care of her children during the day? Is this the government's solution? Planning experts, economists who travel throughout Canada and others who study problems related to poverty always suggest that the government increase production.
Instead of increasing the purchasing power of Mrs. McIntyre, she is being told: If you are in trouble, it is because there is too much milk in the province of Quebec. We will penalize milk producers because their production is too high, and we will give subsidies to western farmers to prevent them from producing wheat. Thus, by lowering the production level to that of your purchasing power of $213, we will probably succeed in striking an economic balance in Canada.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
That is the foolish, stupid solution put forward by the government.
Mr. Speaker, I shall continue to quote from the article:
Another witness.
A young Montreal social worker, Miss Christine Gordon, speaking on behalf of the association, regrets that, in her opinion, the Commission does nothing to relieve the plight of these poor people. According to this 19-year old girl-
I call your attention to this, she is not 69 but 19 years old.

the senators do nothing but discuss several matters. She claims that they are more concerned with defending their own generation-
-surely not the coming generation.
-their own generation than dealing with the problem of poverty.
The Liberal senator David Croll, chairman of the committee, assured Miss Gordon that his colleagues and himself are doing their best to get to the' heart of the problem and not, as the young lady said, to "discuss several matters."
He urged the social workers-
-those who take care of the poor, who visit them and can see poverty in homes-
-he urged the social workers and the unfortunate people before the committee to have faith again.
Faith: You are starving, but have faith. Things are going to improve! More civil
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
servants are going around Canada and more have just left for Australia and New Zealand to try and find some way of exporting there part of our Canadian production. Therefore, take heart, poor Canadians, this government is arranging something for you.
Something is being arranged, you can be sure of that. What the economists want to achieve concerning the balance between purchasing power and production is to reduce our production to the level of the purchasing power. What the Creditistes, say, on the other hand, is that we must increase the purchasing power according to production and instead of restricting production we have to make the purchasing power more flexible, more functional, more realistic than it is now.
The heart of the matter is the financial and even the monetary issue. But there are still people who approve the economists. Last Saturday night, in the Portneuf riding, Mr. Claude Ryan, the "wax-mummy" of the Montreal newspaper Le Devoir, said at Saint-Raymond de Portneuf, that there was unfortunately a decline of the birth-rate in Quebec. The abortion problem is not so acute in Quebec, but the birth-rate is declining by itself. There are fewer immigrants and as a result, the number of consumers is on the decrease.
Then Mr. Ryan notes that we do not know how to spend. That is exactly what he has been told to say by the economists. Indeed I have never seen under the present system a better parrot than Mr. Ryan from Le Devoir.
An expensive style of living and thriftlessness- result in a temporary shortage of foreign capital. What does that mean? It means that if we want to develop our country, build a trans-Canada highway, harness the mining resources of northwestern Quebec, improve the farmlands, bring about improvements in any field whatsoever, we must bow to New York's dictates in order to get the financial "permission" to develop something in our own country-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order. I apologize for interrupting the hon. member, but his time is up. Is there consent for the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Agreed.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I shall not take advantage of the generosity of my colleagues, but this will enable me to conclude my remarks.
DEBATES	6809
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
I shall now deal with the utilization of foreign capital for the development of Canada. Recently, the province of Quebec, under the Bertrand administration, borrowed $50 million in the United States at 10 per cent interest for 25 years for the purpose of carrying out Quebec Hydro projects. If hon. members are good at figures, they know that in 25 years Quebec Hydro will have paid $125 million in interests only and will still owe the entire capital or $50 million. In 25 years from now, Mr. Bertrand will be about 76 years old and will no longer be premier. At that time, our children will probably say that their parents were not sensible to allow such financial commitments.
Now, in accordance with Creditiste suggestions, if Hydro-Quebec had borrowed from the Bank of Canada $50 million without interest to carry out its projects, it would only have repaid $50 million within 50 years. Some argue that this would increase inflation! What difference would there be between borrowing $50 million from the Bank of Canada and borrowing them in the United States? When we borrow in the United States that money does not remain in Canada. We get the $50 million from the United States, but the latter will collect $125 million in interest in addition to the original loan.
Mr. Speaker, nothing prevents us from resorting to the Bank of Canada. Parliament has full authority to take such a decision. I do not say so myself, but Mr. Graham Tower, former governor of the Bank of Canada, did say it. Indeed, according to him, the financial system can be amended by Parliament at any time. He stated the following in that connection:

Creating money, that is the business of banking just the same way that the business of a steel plant is to make steel. Now, if Parliament wants to change the form of operating the banking system, then certainly this is within the power of Parliament.

Mr. Speaker, nothing prevents us from taking action. No one prevents the government from introducing a piece of legislation to enable the provinces, municipalities and school boards to go to the Bank of Canada and borrow the required amounts to build schools, hospitals, roads or other works needed by the population. This would not create
May 11, 1970
6310	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation inflation nor entail nationalization. Chartered banks would continue to operate, perhaps in a freer way than today.
If a province, a municipality or a school board obtained from the Bank of Canada an interest-free loan for a period corresponding to the depreciation of buildings and works, then these public bodies would award contracts for the various construction works and pay contractors with this new credit granted by the Bank of Canada.
The contractor who represents private enterprise would not ask the Bank of Canada for a loan, but would apply to chartered banks. He would deposit the cheques received from the provincial government, the municipality or the school board at a chartered bank branch and he would write cheques to be drawn from his own account. If he needed more credit, he would appeal to his bank manager. This would liberalize credit and help private enterprise.
Chartered banks should finance private enterprise and the Bank of Canada should finance the public sector, without demanding interest.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
Finance companies and chartered banks would continue to charge interest to private corporations.
The hon. member for Richelieu (Mr. Cote) was asking if I would sell cars without charging interest. That is a stupid question. I said a moment ago that if someone pays cash for his car, he does not have to pay interest or borrow from a finance company.
The lack of money explains why Canadians are so much in debt. Consumers and workers owe so much money that they do not see the end of it. Why? Because they have spent too much? No. It is simply because goods remain unsold. If they had money to buy them they would not go into debt.
It is so true that this problem exists in every field. Small stores are resorting to finance companies. As for department stores, they are financing themselves in order to buy last year's or this year's production, which will be used up in two or three years later.
Wages are mortgaged for two or three years, while there is talk of controlling production, prices, expenses, wages, and so forth. Nothing but guesses and surmises which, not surprisingly, have led to the present slump.

No attention is given to the "right" aspect of the problem. It is not a problem of productivity, or of replacing the existing production once it is used up. It is a problem of consumption regarding the present production. Automatically, it will be replaced due to the purchasing power of consumers who will buy production. In fact, the industry will take the place of this production owing to the profits that it will make. That is what is not understood.
Mr. Ryan does not understand that at all. He does not know the problem of those who have a lower standard of living. Let us go and ask Mrs. McIntyre, of Montreal, whether her standard of living is too high! A poor family may rightly want to have a television set. Is this spending money extravangantly nowadays? We need automobiles. Yesterday, I was reading a report to the effect that car sales have noticeably decreased this year. Why? Because people do not want to change their cars? No. Because they cannot afford it.
In every field, the same problem exists, namely, the lack of purchasing power.
Mr. Ryan argues that we do not know how to spend. When people spend their money, they buy products; if they buy products, they encourage the producer. Nobody understands that!
Nobody saves any money! When savings are used to help others, money is saved. Let us ask Mrs. McIntyre to save money on an income of $213 a month! Let us ask a miner who earns $4,800 a year, if he can afford to save any money! Let us ask all low income, groups, farmers, for instance, if they can save anything! Mr. Ryan's editorials remind us of intellectuals lost in the clouds, he reminds me of a "wax statue". They are losing themselves, they are lost! They fail to see the problem. They would rather laugh at the Creditistes. They say that those who voted for the Creditistes are the less educated.
We have among our members, professors, lawyers, labourers, farmers, etc. We have in our party representatives of all classes of society.
I have repeatedly said that education does not necessarily bestow intelligence.
An educated imbecile will remain an imbecile all his life. Only an intelligent person, even an uneducated one has something more than that.
I cannot understand the young people who say: Social Credit, I do not understand anything about that. They think that after watch-
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
ing a 15-minute television program they will understand the whole Social credit philosophy. To become a doctor, a medical student needs five years at the university. To become a lawyer five years also plus one year of clerkship. Any university degree requires years and years of study. Political economy, also requires four or five years.
But when it comes to Social Credit, which constitutes and economic theory, or philosophy, people think they will understand that in fifteen minutes. They do not even take the trouble of studying or examining it. In fact, a professor from Carleton University said of Social Credit: Caouette said it, vote for him, you do not need to understand. So that is, according to him, the meaning of Social Credit.
At Carleton University, you will find books by Karl Marx, Lenin and all the world revolutionaries. As for the book written by Major Douglas, the economist-engineer to whom we owe Social Credit, try to find it at Carleton. It is not there. But you will find the book by Mr. Scott, professor of political economy, who says: Social Credit, you do not need to understand it, all you need is to vote for it. One would believe that the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives understand their own theories. They have no theory at all. They say: Let us follow because things work that way.
As for us, that is not what we tell people. We rather say to them: Get interested in Social Credit. Read and learn something about it. Instead of laughing at it, one should know why he is laughing. To laugh before knowing what it is all about, that is not very clever. People should begin by learning about Social Credit so as to see whether the Credi-tistes are right or not.
We maintain that the problem we are facing is a problem of distribution of goods. That problem will only be solved when we will look after the consumers of Canada, instead of always thinking of production. We are told that we must think about farmers, both eastern and western, that we must think about improving production, about producing this and that. But all those things already exist. Yet, we do not think about consumers, or about Mrs. McIntyre, because she is a woman, and we have thousands of them in Canada.
As a matter of fact, what are the Credi-tistes saying? They say that we will have this year a total production of approximately $75 billion in Canada, and that the total national-22375-13J
DEBATES	6811
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation revenue, including the allowances of those poor federal members, will be around $50 or $52 billion. This means that there will be a difference of $22 or $23 billion between the value of the production of Canadians and their purchasing power. How is it possible to buy a $75 item with $50? Here lies the problem. The Creditistes illustrate the difference between the two by saying: Let us give a national dividend to each Canadian citizen, even to hon. members, even to ministers. Besides salaries, a dividend would be distributed in order to create a balance between the total purchasing power and the total production in Canada, thus allowing consumers to govern production. The latter will be renewed the day it is sure that it will reach consumers. That is the solution. Until I am given proof of the contrary, I believe in it. My colleagues also believe in it.
I am convinced that some hon. members of all parties in this House are of the opinion' that we will eventually have to deal with the consumers, in order to solve problems like those which I mentioned earlier. Indeed, there are thousands of similar cases throughout Canada. They exist in every province, and hon. members are aware of it. We receive letters asking us for social welfare allowances, pension increases are requested, and many other things. Why? Because goods are lacking? Not at all! It is rather because there is a lack of money to buy the goods already on the market.
Instead of deriding the Creditiste answer, let us put it to the test. Let us consider it carefully and let us try to work things out. For indeed, there is an answer. If the Liberals agree, let us call upon the Bank of Canada to grant our public bodies loans without interest. We shall approve such a measure and we shall support the government.
But we shall not cooperate as long as they keep equivocating within an outdated system, which fosters want in the midst of affluence, and which accounts for the uprising of our youth who are just as anxious about insecurity for tomorrow, as our fathers, mothers, workers and farmers are. We are up in arms against all this and we ask the government to assume its responsibilities.
Such is the purpose of the motion moved today by my colleague, the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Rodrigue).
This motion deserves thorough considera-; tion. It is imperative that the various parties represented in the House should make up
May 11. 1970
6312	COMMONS
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation their mind and help the Canadian consumers to gain respect and recognition, to become sensible, lull fledged citizens, in a country which is certainly able to guarantee them security and freedom.



PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Before recognizing the hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. Saltsman) it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 40, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight are as follows:	The hon.
member for Brandon-Souris (Mr. Dinsdale)-* Veterans Affairs-integration of veterans charter with social welfare programs; the hon. member for Yorkton-Melville (Mr. Nys* from)-The Canadian Economy-Effect on employment of anti-inflation policies; the hon. member for Saskatoon-Biggar (Mr. Gleave)

Grain-wheat acreage reduction program- payment of expenses of inspectors-enforcement of bulletin provisions.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Rodrigue:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take all necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power to meet their needs and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.
Mr. Max Saltsman (Waterloo):: close to the poverty line. However, when we reach a level of inflation such as we now have, even those who live in the wealthier ridings, such as my own of Waterloo, suffer very great hardships. Some people are having difficulty meeting their mortgage payments, while others are having difficulty meeting their rent. Some are even having difficulty obtaining the fundamental necessities of life, such as food and medical services.
Among those in the most difficult circumstances are the old age pensioners of Canada. For them, the times are almost impossible. The government has brought in a policy which, in effect, holds the old age pensioners as hostages of Canada in order to bring down inflation. In wartime when hostages are held who are not responsible for certain acts, we think this is a very serious and callous way of handling a situation. Yet in peacetime, the Canadian government is doing the same thing. The government says to the pensioners, we are not going to raise your pensions until inflation is controlled, even though the cost of living has increased in excess of the 2 per cent which pensions can be increased each year. This government says to the rest of the country, "Look at the old age pensioners. We are holding them. We cannot give in to them. To give them justice and a higher pension would mean diminishing our fight against inflation. Here they stand until you do something about inflation". This attitude also applies to the veterans and the dispossessed in our society, those on relief and welfare. This is going on all across the country. It is difficult for any sensible person to understand this inhumane policy.
In justifying the policy of the government, the FTime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) says he is doing this to save these people additional pain. In other words, suffer now so things will be better later. He says we have to create unemployment now so these pensioners and others will benefit from the effects of unemployment. I find it impossible to follow this argument. I do not know how the Prime Minister was able to develop this argument or how he thinks he can intelligently explain this position to the Canadian people. If we were asking Canadians to suffer for a worth while cause or if the solution the government is offering had some possibility of success, we might be able to say that, although it is harsh and callous it is necessary. However, Mr. Speaker, there is not a hope in the world that the present policy of the government will be able to reduce inflation by any more than a
May 11, 1970

negligible amount. Canadian people are being asked to suffer needlessly and foolishly. The production of this country is being destroyed for a cause that cannot meet with any success. One wonders whether this government knows where it is going.
There are a number of facts which are becoming fairly obvious. The first is that we will have to live with inflation for a long time. It may be a permanent situation in western society. Even the most optimistic economists, those who think they can do something about inflation, are virtually agreed that under the best of circumstances the rate of inflation cannot be lowered to less than 3 per cent.


An hon. Member:: We should not give up trying.


Mr.   Bailsman@: I am all for trying if there is any chance of success, but when the facts prove that you are playing an impossible game, where many of the causes of inflation are beyond your control, then the argument that we should keep on trying is really an excuse for not providing justice to old age pensioners and others who are being hurt by inflation. As long as we continue to keep on trying beyond a reasonable level, and as long as we hold up the carrot that we can cure inflation, obviously logic dictates that we do not have to do anything about redressing the program we now have. It becomes an excuse for not doing so.
Many years ago in Montreal I listened to Professor Jack Weldon, an economist who was very much alone at that time. He is no longer alone because many economists have accepted the position he advocated. At that time, he pointed out the great danger that attends a policy which concentrates totally on inflation without looking at the other problems created in the process of fighting inflation. He pointed out that the western world would have to learn to live with this particular phenomena and make adjustments accordingly.
Other countries have made adjustments. Japan had a rate of inflation almost three or four times as great as that of Canada, yet the economy of that country has grown at an enormous rate. The Japanese have made the necessary adjustments and have lived with them. They have not priced themselves out of the world markets, certainly not out of Canada's markets. Too many Canadian people are affected by Japanese imports to use that argument. It is not necessary for Canada to
DEBATES	6813
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation become involved in that kind of inflationary rate, nor do I think it would happen in this country. We need to have some kind of balance in our approach to this problem. I say that we cannot reduce inflation below a certain level. We should try to adjust our economy in the light of this fact. It is fairly obvious that most of the inflation from which Canada is suffering does not originate in this country. It comes from across the border, the United States. There is a very direct relationship between the rate of inflation in the United States and in Canada.
When hearings were held last summer concerning high interest rates, many witnesses appeared before the committee. If anything emerged from that committee hearing it was that as long as Canada is tied economically as tightly as it is to the United States, there is very little we will be able to do about inflation. Our situation is far worse than the American situation. We have a higher rate of inflation and a far greater degree of unemployment. The impact from across the border has had a multiplier effect in Canada.
One measure for controlling inflation that we should study is a way of making our economy somewhat less reliant on the United States. An inflationary tendency is built into our society. There is a movement from one sector of the economy to another. People are moving from the goods producing sector into the service sector. For a long time those in the service sector have received, generally, low wages. Adjustments will be necessary. On the whole, both the farming sector and the goods producing sector have been able to match wages with real increases in production; they have been able to increase productivity almost at the rate by which wages have increased. This is not true of the service sector, which means there will be an attempt on the part of those employed in it to catch up with those employed in the good producing sector. This, in itself, tends toward inflation in the long run.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
It is often argued that Canada will price herself out of world markets unless a determined stand is taken against rising costs in this country. This is believed, I imagine, because there is an element of truth in it. One must examine it to find out how great is this element of truth, or whether the contention is true at all. I believe it is true only because of the somewhat senseless policy Canada has followed by establishing a fixed exchange
6814	COMMONS
. Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation rate. One way of exercising greater control over inflation and over our future plans would be to permit the exchange rate to float, as it did for many years before the government was panicked into fixing it.
There are a number of choices before us.
: The first is to try to live with inflation, 'making adjustments in old age pensions, veterans pensions and the returns of those living on fixed incomes-simply to go ahead with a full employment policy while learning to live 'with the problem. This is not the solution I am suggesting but it is certainly better than the policy the government is now adopting. Alternatively, and this is the course my party has been suggesting for a long time, the government should bring in an incomes policy. I should like to make it very clear what is meant by the term "incomes policy". An incomes policy is a way of allocating resources and making value judgments outside the marketplace-the Canadian people consciously deciding what the rewards of society should be and to whom they should go; it would not depend on whom could squeeze the hardest in the marketplace.
This does not mean all prices and wages have to be fixed. It means you have to be conscious of the problem and move in many different directions in order to get some intelligent allocation of resources and rewards in our society rather than every dog for himself as we have now. It means that at a time of inflationary pressure when resources are being demanded everywhere, the government should decide what the social priorities should be and where investments should go. What is really involved is an organized plan for using the resources of a society. This is what must be done if a reasonable approach is to be found for dealing with inflation while maintaining a high level of employment. At the moment, neither of these approaches is being followed; we are certainly not moving toward a planned use of our resources. Instead, a cover-up known as the Prices and Incomes Commission has been brought into existence. Not having a policy of its own, the government has said: Set up a commission, and see what it can do. Well, the Commission is doing its best under the circumstances, but it has no guidelines to help it; it does not know where it is going, and by confusing everyone it is preventing Parliament from coming to grips with the essential problem.
It seems to me, therefore, that this chamber must continue to debate inflation, unemployment and ways of dealing with these issues.

DEBATES	May 11, 1970
I hope that in the course of the debate today a representative of the government will rise to give us some notion of what the government intends to do-some hope that the government is not floundering completely in its efforts to deal with inflation. Creating unemployment and causing misery in our society is not the answer. It is up to the government to tell us where it stands on this issue in more than just a vague and pious way.


Mr. Henry Laiulippe (Compton):: Mr. Speaker, it is not without satisfaction that I take this opportunity to speak to the motion introduced by the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Rodrigue). Perhaps it does not mean much to some people, but it is very important to us.
In only a few lines, this motion sums up the means to reform our economy while at the same time indicating its drawbacks. What is wrong with our economy? If it were well balanced and properly administered, we would not witness the disagreement and the dissatisfaction which prevail in Canada today.
What is the reason behind such dissatisfaction? It is because we have people who can no longer eat their three meals daily or dispel the concern they feel.
In a country with plentiful riches, it is not logical that 60 per cent of the population be undernourished and deprived of essential things. In such a rich country as ours which does not know how to get rid of its wheat and of other products, farmers are paid not to sow and because they work, some people are punished by losing their job and being forced to live on welfare. We punish those who are employed by taking half their pay to sustain those who do not work.
In those conditions, what else can we expect but general discontent? We are facing more strikes than ever in the past.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
It seems to me that this should be enough to make us ponder, and open our eyes. This should be enough to prompt the government once for all to make available to Canadians the abundant wealth produced by nature and industry. With that abundance of goods, we are too stupid to distribute it to the needy.
We could produce sill more, because our production is now sufficient to feed, house and clothe half the people of the world. Our country has a population of 21 million, 9 million
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
of whom are living in dire poverty. In order to understand clearly that situation, we must first revise some of our ideas and admit certain principles about price mechanism which are now completely ignored.
Mr. Speaker, in order to know what the real price should be, to determine what is an appropriate purchasing power and bring tax decentralization and payment of the public debt, one has to know the difference between production and consumption.
We have to be realistic and avoid thinking all the time about government budgets and economy strictly in terms of money as is done today by most citizens and hon. members.
The hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette) has just defined private and public production. I will take upon myself to define the terms more precisely so as to give a better understanding of the production capacity on which decisions must be based.
Financing must never be an obstacle, as money and financial credit are only a mathematical representation of reality. That is the definition of a budget in a balanced economy.
So a government budget must not be based on the ability to pay, but merely on the capacity for carrying out public works and supplying public services. As works and services are developed, the financial resources required to mobilize all requirements must be made automatically available, since finance should only be a reflection of reality, it must serve reality and not hinder it. Such should be the object of a budget or a well-balanced economy.
Up to now, our beautiful country has never known economic and social stability. We have experienced wars and economic depressions, but never normal stability. Yet, strong governments have made worthwhile efforts to help the less fortunate, but without result.
The old parties asked to be elected with a large majority but, the stronger the government, the more serious the problems have become. The strength of governments has never influenced the economy. It has only served to compound the difficulties we are now experiencing. There should be economic stability at the federal, provincial and municipal levels. Individuals and companies should also enjoy economic stability. Government greatly unbalances the taxpayers' budget by creating unemployment and hence insecurity.
If imports equal production, it is preposterous to seek to export in excess of
DEBATES	6815
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation imports. This would make us poorer. If we hasten to export ten cars, or if we reduce imports so as to get only the equivalent of five cars, the country is poorer by five cars.
The whole field of exports does not solve the problem because if we export without importing goods for the same value, the country is poorer by that much.
In order to maintain a balance of payments, a country must have imports and exports of equivalent value.
If you ask an economist what he thinks of this imbalance between exports and imports, he will say it is unfavourable. If a country or a province wants independence, it will never get it if it has to depend on others. A country or a state must seek to export as much as it imports and to pay its imports through its exports. Beyond that, it goes into debt, it grows poor.
We can always make gifts, but that is not trading. If we want to be charitable, let us say it by defining the cost price and the real cost. The cost price is the sum of all disbursements in money or financial credit involved in production, namely, salaries, part of working expenses, capital and maintenance expenditures, profits of the contractor and investors, which are the equivalent of the salaries paid to the employees. In order that the manufacture may hold on, it is necessary that it should get back at least all the cost price in full, which is an accountable cost.
However, the true cost of production is all that had to be consumed to bring it into being. Thus, a car, whatever its financial cost is, has really cost the metal used to make it, the power, the wear of the machinery, the energy of the manufacturer, that is to say the food he consumed to keep up his strength. The financial cost price and the real cost are not necessarily the same. Besides, it will probably will be so.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)
Major Douglas quite rightly wrote that the real cost of production is consumption, or, in other words, what actually had to be sacrificed in order to produce, not in terms of money, but in terms of real cost.
Of course, it is impossible to establish precisely the actual cost as thus defined for each item produced, but it is easy to determine what the actual cost of the country's total production was for, let us say, one year. It is the total figure of the country's consumption for that period.
May 11. 1970
6816	COMMONS
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
In 1970, the NGP was $84 billion and the total consumption was $50 billion. Therefore, the consumers should pay a total of $50 billion, because production is equal to consumption.
If with consumption reaching only $50 billion, it is impossible to purchase $84 billion worth of production, and that is just where the CrediListes come into the picture with their price adjustment theory.
Compensated discounts should therefore be granted in areas where surpluses exist.
In effect, we are all aware that there is a surplus in the car manufacturing industry, so much so that about 25,000 workers have been laid off because cars are not selling.
If price adjustments were made, we could sell those cars. The Creditistes are advocating the distribution of a compensated discount through an accounting system set up by the Bank of Canada so as to sell the surplus production. We could, for instance, grant a 50 per cent discount on the sale of all cars.
Anyone wanting a $4,000 car must go and see a car dealer. When he needs a car, he wants to get one. The car dealer would make out two bills, one for the customer and one for a credit board to be set up. The customer's invoice would show $2,000 and the credit board's copy would likewise show $2,000, so that the car dealer would not lose anything. The manufacturer would not lose anything either and this would not cost anything to anybody, since this would be only an accounting operation, nothing but a simple entry in the credit board's books. Money would thus be created with the government's approval, and this would enable a person not able to afford a $4,000 car to buy it for $2,000. If he does not have the $2,000, he could borrow them from the bank. He would save $2,000. If he has $4,000 and can buy the car for $2,000 only, he will have $2,000 left with which to buy something else. As a matter of fact, we do not know what to do with surpluses.
Citizens are penalized through unemployment, whereas there are surpluses. People are deprived of work, because this would bring about another increase in production.
That is the problem. In 1969 the entire private and public production reached $84 billion and consumption $50 billion. If prices were adjusted through accounting, goods worth $84 billion would sell for $50 billion, that is at the cost of money in circulation.
[Mr. Latulippe.l

Let us adjust prices instead of increasing taxes, salaries and wages which unbalances the economy of the country. It is beyond understanding. Everybody is in debt.
The administration, whether Blue or Red, never changed anything with respect to price adjustment. They were not able to restore the balance of the economy which has never been balanced, by the way, except during the war.
During the last war our economy was balanced because a large number of our people-I believe we had 800,000 men under arms-were destroying while the others were producing. Considering our enormous production capacity, we cannot refer to a production problem.
Therefore, the matter is not only one of justice, but also necessity. Finance should be a true reflection of both production and consumption. If our total production for 1970 is worth $84 billion, we should be able to sell it at that price.
A more flexible financial system should adapt to accounting operations, in order to serve instead of crippling or slowing down our economy. It can adapt without harming any private interests, thanks to the technique we recommend, because while involving reduced prices, it provides, through the community credit fund, some compensation to the salesman for the losses he might incur due to lower prices. The producer, on his side, will therefore recuperate the cost price to which he is entitled, since that price amounts to total expenditures in the course of production. Therefore, there is justice for both sides!
A simple rule of three based on production and consumption statistics would show which discount should be granted on marked prices, to lower them to the real price to be paid by the consumers. This mechanism, if applied, would put an end to the silly system that we now have.
This price-adjusting mechanism would allow us to get rid of our irritating and costly tax system.
I should like to describe it in greater detail, but it must be kept in mind that under that financial system, it is admitted that all financial credit must originate in the national or provincial community fund, and return there after having served its purpose, by reflecting faithfully the economic facts in both directions, namely production or outward movement and consumption or inward movement.
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
If during a given period, the total production of a country has been $84 billion, and the government budget has been $12 billion for the same period, the production of consumable goods is $72 billion.
Money is really taken out of circulation in two ways: through the purchase of consumable goods, and in the form of taxes.
Therefore, consumer prices and taxes should be reduced by one third, even if the total budget is spent.
Those are the solutions which we have been advocating for a long time. Several members must begin to understand that some reforms are essential. We do not intend to upset everything, but some abuses of the financial system have to be corrected.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
Instead of encouraging socialism, or communism, as we are now doing, we must maintain the democratic system, safeguard democracy, by applying the true principles of democracy. Mr. Speaker-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired. Unless the House gives its unanimous consent, he may not continue his remarks.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Henry P. Latulippe: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. members for allowing me to continue my speach. I shall not, however, want to impose upon their courtesy and will endeavour to be as brief as possible.
It is all to the credit of our government and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson), to have at long last for the first time in 12 years unfortunately, brought down a balanced budget.
Now, if the last budget is balanced, if the government shows off a surplus, it means that they wheedled too much money from people who deny themselves the necessities of life. The government caused the unbalance of budget of each Canadian citizen to balance its own and that of the financiers.
In that vein, therefore, they must continue to increase high salaries, to impose heavier taxes on the small wage earners, who get into debt to buy what they sorely need, to increase the interest rates on the millions of government bonds.
We are doing exactly the opposite of that common sense dictates, and have been doing it for a long time. It's a bad habit that has 22375-14
DEBATES	6817
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation become a second nature. Everybody has to put up with it, but friends of the government profit by it and support the rulers in then-base and morbid blindness, probably intentional and deliberate. In any case, we warn the government and their blindness becomes the more guilty if their attitude and behaviour remain the same.
The white paper on tax reform gives forecasts on our development for the next five years and for this new decade. Those proofs of an evil science of the government administration are but a way of deafening us and of blinding us as far as the enormous opportunities made available to us, if we wish to see them, are concerned. We want to enable everyone to benefit from them and as soon as we decide to work as administrators, to stop copying the past and try to concentrate on the future, which promises the greatest achievements, we will reach that goal.
We congratulate the government for having balanced the budget for the first time in twelve years. But at whose expense have we succeeded in doing so? In order to balance that budget, it was necessary to balance the budget of small manufacturers, small dealers, small farmers, of salaried people and craftsmen, who are responsible for the greater of our production.
The production of millions is due to great private and public corporation and to then-benefit but the production of real goods, services provided for the whole population of Canada, we owe all that once more to the enormous majority wage earners people, farmers, low income people and mothers without a salary. And all those small personal and family budgets are still more unbalanced than ever.
Before concluding, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words about family allowances. We know they have remained at the same level since their inception in 1944, although the cost of living has since increased considerably.
Mr. Speaker, it is a shame that a country like Canada which shows a surplus of products such as the $34 billion surplus we had this year, did not succeed in raising family allowances to give families an opportunity to live decently and to provide consumers with enough purchasing power to ensure the sale of surplus products.
I do not want to overtax the patience of the House and I thank hon. members for allowing me to complete my remarks.
6818	COMMONS DEBATES	May 11. 1970
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation


Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: 
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: It being six o'clock, I do now leave the Chair until 8 p.m.
At six o'clock the House took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The House resumed at 8 p.m.
Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: At the time of adjournment, Mr. Speaker, I was saying that it was the people who produced everything and that this production was to go back to the people in order to answer their needs. It is, in fact, the duty of the State to take the necessary steps to reach that objective.
As for me, I have never seen a government producing anything. The job of a government is to administer. As a matter of fact, I am wrong, Mr. Speaker, for I have seen governments producing something; they produce debts, and these debts compel the government to levy further taxes in order to pay the interets on these debts. In my opinion, this is one of the reasons for inflation. And, I am not the only one to believe that. Incidentally, there is what Senator Lamon-tagne, whom everyone knows, I believe, was quoted as having said:
In Toronto, the former minister recently declared that the measures of the government were misdirected when aiming at the demand sector of the economy.
"Since their main result is to reduce employment. ..
-he is speaking of the means to which the governments resorts to-
-and to expand the weakest sectors of the economy instead of keeping prices down, the poor will bear the brunt of inflation on one hand and of its so-called remedies on the other hand, while the strong sectors which are mainly responsible for inflation will keep on enjoying income increases.
The senator went on saying that the government should tackle the roots of the problem, in other terms, the huge, monopolistic sectors of our economy."
-this means big business and those whQ control the credit of the nation.
May 11, 1970
6820	COMMONS
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
Inflation is caused by high interest rates. One has only to consider the situation a little to realize the fact. When the provinces, the municipalities and the school boards have to borrow at 10 per cent, quite understandably, the administrators find themselves obliged to increase taxes. When municipal and school taxes increase, this helps to increase the cost of living, and consequently, to disorganize the purchasing power of a great many people who are not too well off. Another result is an increase in the cost of professional services, because those who provide them have to pay more to organize their professional life. Of course, through taxes, they contribute to the maintenance of the public services, and so forth.
Mr. Speaker, I have here a case which illustrates the situation very well. The Saint-Flavien Home, in the Lotbiniere constituency, was built at the cost of $386,280, and the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which provides the necessary funds to the Quebec Housing Corporation, granted a loan of $374,200. I have here a letter from the manager of the home in which he tells me that the loan is to be paid back over a 50-year period, at a cost of $2,200 per month.
If we multiply those figures, we find that the Corporation du Foyer de Saint-Flavien will pay, over those 50 years the tidy sum of $1,320,000.
Considering the fact that the cost amounts to $386,280 and that the contract was awarded for $327,000, one readily understands that the company financing the home will pay the cost of four, while using only one and that during those 50 years there will be maintenance costs to keep it in good shape.
The occupants of the home will necessarily pay more, increasing their cost of living which automatically will reduce the real value of their pension.
Some will say that, in certain cases, public welfare will provide for the difference in their pension.
But, considering that social welfare is paid by the taxes of the Canadian people, and that in Quebec alone, in 1968-69, the contribution of the federal government alone amounted to $195 million, it is small wonder that we are getting into ever greater financial difficulty.
The Creditistes have repeatedly suggested that the Bank of Canada be used to provide the necessary funds for those public utilities. This is at times scoffed at, but the government goes ahead and does not always act in


the best interests of Canada. In fact, I put a question on the order paper to which a reply was given on May 8th, 1969, to this effect: Towards the end of 1988, Canada granted two loans of $15 million each to India to finance, not the construction of homes, not public utilities such as dams, etc., but towards the purchase of fertilizers or basic products that depreciate very rapidly. Those loans were granted for 50 years, without interest, with repayment period of 10 years.
Mr. Speaker, I feel if the same had been done in many public sectors in Canada, our financial situation would be far less disastrous.
We therefore suggest to increase, as stated in the motion under consideration the income of those who need it, by using the credit of the nation, and that this credit become "social", namely that it be put at the disposal of the whole society, in order to increase directly the income, without affecting the prices. We suggest that family allowances be increased. That is a right of the family, it is not normal that they should be kept at the present level.
If it was right to enact 25 years ago the legislation on family allowances-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is there unanimous consent to allow the hon. member to
continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. Through you, I also wish to thank all my colleagues for their great understanding. I will use as wisely as possible the time of the House so that other hon. members wishing to take part in this debate may do so.
I was saying that the increase in family allowances would not be a gift that the government would distribute to families. It would rather be a matter of recognizing a family right, because the family represents the greatest wealth of the country, namely the human capital.
If families discharge their duty, if they contribute to the production of this great wealth, it seems normal to me for the state to improve its legislation allowing families to
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
have available services which at the same time contribute to increase their income, so that they are in a position to honour their commitments or that the parents may choose for a while yet the education system which they wish for their children. It would be fit that they be in a position to pay themselves their teachers instead of always relying on the state. We know that when it is the state which pays for a service, it is also the state which chooses those who give those services.
9 (8:10 p.m.)
But I really believes that this is contrary to the principles of democracy. We recommend that the old age pensions be increased, as well as the allowances given the needy who suffer from unemployment, or sickness. If we were to make a real effort in order to increase the pensions of less fortunate people, we would help spur the economy of our country without penalizing the others, without desorganizing them or wanting to put everybody on the same footing.
Pensions paid in 1970 to retired railway workers are ridiculous. I have here a table which appeared in Hansard of 1967 and which indicates that 683 Canadians had a monthly pension varying between $25 and $29, 1,392 between $30 and $40, 1,126 between $40 and $50, all in all, 5,602 people receiving at most $200 a month.
In 1970, as the hon. member for Temis-camingue (Mr. Caouette) said so ably this afternoon, short of a miracle it would be almost impossible to live on such a low income. It is not surprising that those with slender means ask with insistence-and I do it on their behalf-that the government decides to make some changes so that pension funds, which were increased by the contributions of middle income people, can be useful to them in their old age. According to the balance sheet of December 31, 1968, the reserve fund totalled $1,414,744,356. That money was precisely meant for those who contributed to the fund and who made sacrifices to accumulate a pension fund.
Thirty years ago, they might have been able to live decently with $25 but in 1970, this amount is ridiculously low. No wonder people are protesting, particularly those who live in very difficult conditions. We should make a real effort to provide a reasonable income for those under-privileged persons.
In the agricultural field, for example, we have seen some demonstrations in the province of Quebec in the past few weeks. It is not on a sudden impulse that those people are
DEBATES	6821
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation demonstrating. Indeed, I am acquainted with them, because I live among them and most Quebec members know that they are experiencing distressing conditions and hope to have a sufficient income to be able to discharge their responsibilities.
Mr. Speaker, it is discouraging to note how living conditions have become difficult for those workers. They endeavour to cope with their problems, but the harder they try the more they get into trouble apparently made for them so that their life may still be more trying.
There are some people on the government side who at times laugh at members who fight for the underdog. I think that if we do not act promptly, we may some day wake up to face disquieting situations.
We witnessed in this House this afternoon a demonstration by young people that paralyzed Parliament. We wonder at times how in certain countries of the world a small minority overthrows the government by a coup d'etat. We had a little foretaste of this type of happening this afternoon. People became panicky as we all saw. The demonstration had been organized quietly and nobody could have foreseen such an event.
Here we have a small minority who acts while the majority remains inactive and merely deplores the situation. We are passive witnesses who do not dare do anything.
Our economic system has its good and its bad points. It must be improved, especially the distribution sector. The system will be corrected by law-abinding men or it will be destroyed by the others. Many countries have experienced similar situations.
It is high time to do something. It is not in fun that a motion asking that consumers' rights be recognized has been presented and that every effort be made to increase their incomes. On the contrary, it is in order to prevent those situations that lead to demonstrations.
We do everything in our power to give our children a good education and when they are attending educational institutions, some people get hold of them and make of them what we see today. This is why I say that we have a very heavy responsibility.
Even if we tackle the most powerful trust in the world, the money trust, we must accept our responsibilities and make sure that money becomes the real servant of the human being. It is from that angle that we wanted to co-operate with the government and make
May 11, 1970
6822	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation workable suggestions. It they were not, it would be obvious they are not.
Even if pensions and family allowances were increased, there would be no need to worry since industries could still produce shoes, clothing and requisites of all kind.
[DOT] (8:20 p.m.)
Mr. Speaker, to come back to the incident of this afternoon, I would not be surprised to read in tomorrow's newspapers, in large headlines, a report of the demonstration. Of course, the essential point will be overlooked, namely the motion now before us which deals with the problem of consumers. It is distressing to note that the press, which is responsible for informing the public, sometimes, with our money, misrepresents instead of informing. It can never be repeated often enough: objective information is a must.


David Réal Caouette: Professional distorters!


Joseph Adrien Henri Lambert: If the government followed our suggestions, it could effect some improvements. It would not take 20 years. It is essential to act now, otherwise, the young who cannot find jobs today will rebel. I know what I am talking about, because I have a family. Some of my children are looking for jobs. We have paid for the education of our children who are now ready to contribute to the development of our country and of our province. I know hundreds of children of good will.
Last Saturday, I spoke to my constituents. Eor hours, they talked to me about the same problem: their financial problem. They came to consult me about dairy quotas, social welfare allowances and matters relating to unemployment. These people did not come to meet their member of Parliament just for the pleasure of seeing him, but to submit their grievances, their needs. It is our duty to pass it on to Parliament, so that the government might take the necessary steps to bring about the needed improvements while there is still time.
Have we not all known the sweet one and twenty? I say this, lest the older ones forget. When you are young, and not striving to do things the right way, you do them the wrong way. If I were 20 years old, I would behave like today's young people. We did not achieve any miracles either. Young people must therefore be given a chance for their energy, their strength, their education and their skills to result in the building of a Canada where they can lead happy lives.
IMr. Lambert (Bellechasse).]
It is a pity that it should become increasingly difficult for people to buy a house, although each young man aspires to own his home. In my opinion, in a democracy like ours, the best guarantee we can give ourselves as a nation is to see that as many people as possible have the opportunity of owning a house. When you own something, you feel a part of Canada belongs to you and therefore you are willing to make whatever sacrifices are required to protect it.
Mr. Speaker, I wish my remarks were considered objectively! My purpose was not, to outline problems for the sake of doing so but how shall we find the right answers if we never talk about them?
These are the few suggestions I wanted to contribute to this debate and I would like the government at least to try the experiment. It is worth doing so before it is too late for if we do not take action, young people will no longer be satisfied with demonstrating from the gallery, as they did earlier. They will find another outlet. Let that be a lesson to us.


Mr. Roch La Salle (Jolieile):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a few remarks of my own on this motion which says:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take all necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power to meet their needs and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.
In my opinion, a government anxious to take the necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power cannot forget the present unemployment, an evil apparenty worse than inflation.
Of course, Mr. Speaker, we all agree it is important to talk about inflation. The government has not only the power but also the responsibility to introduce legislation to curb such inflation.
But how could we increase the purchasing power when we can hardly, if at all, reduce unemployment?
Other members gave their account a while ago. They pointed out that the government's first priority was to fight inflation. According to many Canadian businessmen, the essential thing would rather be to reduce unemployment, which would finally unable us to gradually stem inflation.
We must avail ourselves of this opportunity to ask once more the government to examine attentively once and for all the problem we have to face. I do not think we have
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
encountering any unwillingness, but we must once again deal with what we have so often discussed.
It is disappointing for hon. members to repeat their speeches because it seems that the voice of some of them was not sufficiently heard in this House.
The purchasing power cannot be created otherwise than through the regular work of all Canadians. Thus it is the duty of all members to co-operate in order to bring an end to unemployment.
I have had occasions to congratulate the Department of Regional Economic Expansion for the subsidies granted to new industries. But I take great care not to do it again. I believe we are not concerned enough about existing industries. The economy could be stabilized and industries given the desire to invest more to the greatest advantage of the citizens.
[DOT] (8:30 p.m.)
I shall take this opportunity to speak of purchasing power, feeling entitled to do so since there is talk of ensuring it to everyone.
I also think that the textile industry is sick today, and slowing down throughout Canada. In my riding, we run into that problem in that important industry and other members of my party-I should imagine that government members are tempted to do so but they do not dare-have criticize the government for neglecting the textile industry in this regard.
Now, it seems that on those different questions, and on various occasions, I have had the opportunity of asking the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Pepin) when he would announce his new policy on the textile industry. Others have done it also, and we have always been told that the policy was almost ready, that it would be announced in the near future. I wonder how far those discussions have progressed and when it is expected to be announced.
I wonder how basic industries such as the textile and clothing industries can continue to prosper in Canada, considering the revolutionary and apparently permanent changes in the textile product world trade.
The Canadian textile and clothing industrie now have to meet the competition of low-cost exporting countries, including Japan, some Middle East countries and some developing nations. That trade has increased quickly and to the extend of defying all competition. Our
DEBATES	5823
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation imports from those low-cost manufacturing countries, amounted to 5 per cent of our textile and clothing imports in 1954. to 25 per cent in 1955 and to 43 per cent in 1967.
The frame work of this industry's operations has to be defined not only for its employees and manufacturers, but also for a good number of citizens of this country. In fact, 83,000 people are employed in spinning-mills, 47,000 in Quebec, 31,000 in Ontario, and 5,000 in the remainder of Canada.
The clothing and related industries employ a total of 110,000 people, and is represented in each province, although the main concentra-tionis in Montreal, with 50,000 workers. Then come Toronto, with 19,000 workers, and Winnipeg, with 6,000 workers. A prosperous clothing industry is necessary for the textile industry, since clothing imports are equally prejudicial to both.
The textile technology in Canada rates among the most progressive in the world. The industry gave up investing to get the most modern plants. It has spent $500 million in the last eight years, and its operations are truly modern and sophisticated.
If its leaders had some information on the impending course of the national policy, they would be particularly able to provide a considerable number of jobs and contribute to the expansion of many centres this coming decade when-as the Economic Council has stated-a great number of jobs will be needed.
When talking about purchasing power, I think that it is impossible to ignore an industry which is so important and which could be more important if a favourable policy was announced earlier by the government.
Many important centres, large or small, rely greatly on the textile industry for their living, which makes them particularly vulnerable to the impact from textile products and clothing imports from countries where costs are low.
These upheavals and economic losses suffered by workers condemned to total or partial unemployment could be easily avoided were it possible to plan within the framework of a well understood policy. However, the present conditions thwart all forecasts by imposing imports from countries where costs are low. Better planning would indicate which goals to pursue, how much capital to invest, and would guide the government in a more or less general basis in so far as low price imports are concerned.
6824	COMMONS DEBATES	May 11, 1970
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
Under the present situation some factors could lead to a continuing decrease of the employment and investment levels, to the deterioration of the social conditions and to the decline of the centers where are located those industries which face the competition of low cost foreign industries. On the other hand, it is possible that we shall manage to set up a viable and prosperous textile industry likely to contribute to the Canadian economic expansion.
The first prospect is not encouraging, but if it has been chosen, we should at least be told about it. The industry believes that its dynamic policy in the realm of technical projets and marketing deserves government support, particularly at a time when we are told that conditions in the manufacturing industry should be improved with a view to provide sufficient and ever increasing employment.
Detailed forecasts about the potential of the textile industry in various circumstances are made based on forecasts about total demand in Canada and taking for granted that productivity will increase continuously.
It seems to me that this waiting and this diffidence on the part of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce is detrimental to the textile industry. In my riding we have the stunning example of an industry whose staff has diminished by 40 per cent from 1952 to 1970. If one calculates the value of the working hours of 1952 according to 1970 standards the losses in wages suffered by the workers of Jolette would amount to $500,000 a year.
It is easy to imagine the economic effects of such a situation in an area like ours. The volume of our revenue has diminished by nearly 20 per cent. To get the present volume, 50 per cent of the revenue must be achieved through marginal work.
How many more jobs could be created with a sound textile policy! I could give as example the Consolidated Textile, and an analysis of somewhat similar percentages would reveal a downgrading and a slowdown in certain industries.
I shall take this opportunity to ask to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce to announce his new policy as soon as possible. The owners of those businesses are concerned and, therefore, they are afraid of reinvesting for they are wondering where the industry is heading and what new policy is to be expected. We are still looking forward to an announcement of the new policy in connec-

tion with the textile industry which is greatly embarrassing not only for the owners of industries, but also for the increasing number of workers who become the victims of unemployment.
If we are to talk about the purchasing power, we must necessarily and before everything else solve the problem of unemployment. I hope the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce will undertake to announce that policy as soon as possible. On behalf of workers who are waiting patiently and of owners of industries who are the builders of the Canadian economy, I believe I shall be allowed to ask the minister to announce his policy very soon, in the best interest of the Canadian industry.
In my opinion, that is the sort of action we need to accomplish something worthwhile and likely to provide Canadian workers with more purchasing power.
It has also been said that outrageous interest rates can lead to inflation; I could not agree more with those who have made that remark.
We cannot logically speak of a short term housing policy when interest rates on mortgages are 10 or 11 per cent. I have at times asked the government to set a 5 or 6 per cent interest rate for the benefit of those who earn $10,000 a year or less, which would enable these people to own their own homes as is the right of all Canadians. Having a property would stimulate them into becoming more useful citizens.
[DOT] (8:40 p.m.)
A short-term policy and a 5 or 6 per cent interest rate would allow all Canadians to own a house, while reactivating construction, creating new jobs and providing building materials companies with outlets for their products. I wonder why the government does not pay attention to our suggestions because it seems to me that the taxes on building materials, specially the 11 per cent sales tax, would be a substantial source of revenue for the government. If the unemployed could find jobs this way, the government would collect additional taxes from them.
It is also the duty of the government to establish a reasonable interest rate as soon as possible, if it seriously intends to stimulate construction activity, or carry out a short term housing program, which could also help to reduce unemployment.
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
It is inconceivable at this time of the year that some municipalities must allocate 50 per cent of their budget to the payment of interest.
Then, how can we hope that provinces and municipalities will recover economic stability when, for example, a $50 million loan, negotiated lately by Hydro-Quebec, will cost $125 million in interests.
I am not an economist and I certainly do not have the qualifications of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson),-who has certain qualities and who is perhaps not the wisest minister-but I am beginning to wonder, when I think that this interest will cost three or four times more than the reimbursement of the capital.
I am asking myself, like many other hon. members, how can we succeed if we do not acknowledge that help should be given to the public sector, that is to the provincial or municipal governments, through loans at very low interest rates. For how else could we establish a strong economy or continue to develop Canada, the provinces and the municipalities?
These various factors should prompt the government to act along those lines.
Provinces and municipalities have their problems and of course the federal government will tell us that it has its own. But I do not think that the problems of unemployment and inflation can be settled when unemployment is created supposedly to check inflation.
I wish1 to take this opportunity to congratulate those who put that motion and I am once again asking the government to consider a little more seriously the possibility of increasing the purchasing power of the consumer, in order to fight inflation, without forgetting that unemployment is the most urgent of all our problems.


Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: 
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order, please. I regret to inform the hon. member that his time has expired-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Finish the sentence.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: -Unless there is unanimous consent of the House to his continuing. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


David Orlikow: The chairman of the Prices and Incomes Commission is earning the very small salary of $40,000, so that by my calculation his income has doubled since he came to Ottawa. I suggest to the estimable gentleman, as I suggest to the Prime Minister whose staff has quadrupled since he took office, that if they want people to show restraint they, the cream of society of this country, should set an example to the poor, ordinary pensioners, the poor steelworkers and autoworkers. The latter are fortunate if they earn $7,000 a year with overtime, and that is considered a very good salary for workers. Indeed, they earn more than 90 per cent of the working people of this country.
If the government really believes in restraint they should give the people of this country the kind of example that was set during the war. Until they show that restraint is for everybody, they do not have the right to call on the ordinary citizens-pensioners, workers, farmers-to show the restraint which the government is preaching every day so loudly and ineffectively.


Hon. Herb Gray (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, there have been a

number of interesting comments about the motion presented to the House by the Rallie-ment Creditiste. Many would consider that by economic standards that are widely accepted in virtually all modernized industrialized nations of the world, the motion represents an interesting but unfortunate contradiction in terms. The effect of taking further steps at this time of the type called for by the Rallie-ment Creditiste could well add to the inflationary pressures that continue to exist in the economy and about which they have expressed concern.
The government, of course, does want to promote the greatest possible increase in the real purchasing power of Canadians; in other words, to bring about the greatest possible increase in their standard of living. But it wants to do so, Mr. Speaker, without jeopardizing the stability and soundness of the Canadian economy. There cannot be an increase in the standard of living which is real and meaningful unless, at the same time, we have a stable and sound economy. And the increasing ability of Canadians to acquire the goods and services that would raise the quality of their life depends in a vital way on the ability of the economy to produce them. The inflationary spiral that we are now experiencing was set in motion, in the first place, when the demand for goods and services both in our own country and in a number of other nations began three or four years ago to outrun the capacity of the economy to supply these goods and services. Even though the demand for goods and services has gradually been brought into balance with supply, the inflationary pressures set in motion some time ago continue to reverberate throughout the economy.
Contrary to the implication of the Creditiste motion, personal incomes and consumer spending have continued to rise at a rapid rate. During 1969, personal incomes, including wages, salaries and earnings of unincorporated businesses and farmers increased by 10.5 per cent. Even after deducting personal direct taxes, the increase in the amount of disposable personal income amounted to some 8.2 per cent. The increase in consumer spending, however, exceeded this increase in personal incomes, rising by 9 per cent in 1969 over the level in the previous year. This was made possible because Canadians saved less than during the year before. In 1968, Canadians saved 7.6 per cent of their disposable income, but in 1969 the ratio of personal savings declined to 6.8 per cent. The result was that
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
not only was there a heavy demand for consumer goods and services but that proportionately less money was set aside by Canadians in the form of personal savings with which to help finance the capital investment that is a prerequisite for increasing the ability of the economy to produce more real goods and services.
I am informed there is little evidence to date indicating that there has been any significant slowdown in the rate of increase of personal incomes or of the personal spending of Canadians. On the contrary, if the recent Labour Department survey of wage developments in the first three months of 1970 is any indication, personal incomes are continuing to increase at a rapid rate, which in turn, I am informed, will likely lead to further substantial increases in consumer spending this year. The survey estimated that as of March 31, 1970, the average base rate of some 1.4 million workers under collective agreements covering 500 or more employees, excluding construction, stood at 8 per cent over the level of a year ago. In the previous 12-month period the increase was 7.3 per cent.
It could be suggested that if there are increases in wages and salaries as well as other elements of costs far in excess of the expansion of productivity, the effect would be to maintain the inflationary momentum of the economy with the increased costs leading in turn to increased prices for a wide variety of goods and services bought by Canadians as consumers.
[DOT] (9:10 p.m.)
The policy of the government has been to moderate the growth and demand for goods and services so as to prevent a new thrust to inflation and to encourage the present inflationary spiral to lose its momentum. At the same time, the government has also sought to counter possible adverse impacts of fiscal and monetary restraints on slow-growth areas through a variety of selective measures, including regional economic expansion and manpower training programs, public works and the special consideration for loans in less developed areas urged on chartered banks by the Bank of Canada. A number of longer term measures have also been adopted, aimed at increasing the capacity of the economy to produce goods and services. These supply policies take time to increase the productivity of the economy, which is the real foundation of our standard of living. As noted earlier,
DEBATES	6829
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation the purchasing power of Canadian consumers is already increasing at a substantial rate. If the government took steps of the kind called for by the Ralliement Creditiste, it would incur the severe risk of intensifying today's already strong inflationary pressures.
The hon. member for Prince Edward-Has-ings (Mr. Hees) made some interesting comments. I might observe, however, that most Canadians, if they heard them, would say that if the Conservative Party really had the solutions to Canada's actual and potential economic problems in the way put forward by the hon. member, why were they not used in the period in which that party was in power between 1957 and 1963? They would also ask why conditions were what they were in those years, with rates of unemployment far above what they are today. The hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings spoke of turning things around. I would not want to be unkind in speaking of the remarks of the hon. member, but if I wanted to be unkind I suppose I could say that the Conservative government of which he was a part seemed to turn the preceding prosperity before 1957 into a number of years of Conservative depression.


Mr. Rynard:: You had better look at the record.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, the public has available to it the unfortunate record of failure of the previous Conservative government of which the hon. member for Prince Edward-Hastings was a member. It has before it as a basis for any judgment that it would want to make, as to whether his party is capable of providing advice and whether it can do a better job on ensuring a prosperous and growing economy than the present government. It could well be understood if, as a result of such consideration, the public would be rather skeptical, to say the least, of the hon. member's arguments.
Let me deal with one further point made by the hon. member when he urged, in effect, that the government make efforts to expand our export trade. I think it is clear that this government is pursuing a vigorous policy of expanding exports. It should be noted that if there are continuing inflationary pressures, they could have the result of frustrating these efforts if the pressures increased seriously the price of our goods which we want to export, thus making them no longer competitive.
The hon. member for Regina East (Mr. Burton) made a comment which will be noted
May II. 1970
6830	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation with interest in a number of circles. I thought I heard him say that the labour movement has expressed willingness on recent occasions to sit down and talk about problems of inflation in the Canadian economy with the government. If he is correct in this, and I hope he is, then most Canadians would say it is a welcome change of attitude. After all, inflation has particularly serious effects on people with fixed incomes, on the unorganized workers who make up most of the labour force, as well as on the organized workers.
The hon. member for Regina East and others of his party colleagues alleged that the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) had used words to indicate that he was quite prepared and willing to see certain levels of unemployment. I gather that these allusions arise out of a press conference given by the Prime Minister before Christmas. I think it is important to note what was actually said at that time. In response to a question from a member of the press, the question as I recall it being whether he would attempt to forecast the rate of unemployment for 1970, he said:
If you are asking me to forecast, five-ish now, it might go up I suppose-close to six.
Then he said, "I don't know, I hope not." He went on to say that if the government was sticking with its anti-inflationary program it was "not because we want to see the unemployment." He pointed out in the course of the same answer that "we know that if we don't fight that fight against inflation we will have much worse unemployment and much greater misery". The government's efforts to restrain inflation reflect its desire to avoid worse unemployment which would come if our economy is disrupted by runaway inflation.
The hon. member for Regina East made some comments about the timing of announcements about foreign ownership policy. He suggested that the government had said in the House that this policy would be announced in the spring or before the adjournment. I do not think he is correct in this allusion. The reference on which I think he based his remarks was an answer given as to when the details of our policy would be announced on the uranium industry, and, as the House knows, that has been done. The government has not formally indicated to the House exactly when it hopes to be able to present a more comprehensive policy on the question of foreign ownership. However, I think I can say that there certainly is active work proceeding on it and on a bill with

respect to a Canada development corporation as well.
The hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette) and his party colleagues have said a number of things about their notice of motion.

-and I can tell him and his colleagues that when he asks the government to take its responsibilities, it is exactly what we are doing when we try to check the rate of inflation and to insure a stable and sound economy with high and increasing rates of employment.


Mr. Laprise:: That is precisely what is not done.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: The hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. Saltsman) suggested, I think quite wrongly, that the government was saying that it was not doing anything for old age pensioners until we were able to deal with inflation. The government has in fact made clear that it is working on a white paper on social policy. The Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Munro) indicated formally in the House, I believe last week, that he was expecting that the paper would be presented before the end of the present session. I was interested to note what the Prime Minister said in confirmation of this government's concern and its desire to have further steps taken with respect to pensioners in his reply to the brief of the National Senior Citizens' Association some time ago. I do not think it is correct, as suggested by the hon. member for Waterloo, that this government is concentrating on figthing inflation to the exclusion of dealing with other problems. What I am saying is demonstrated by our expanded programs of regional economic development and efforts in the field of manpower training.
The hon. member also made some comments to the effect that his party proposes a form of incomes policy. He did not make too clear wfio would define incomes, who would enforce the policy and what it would mean to any particular wage earner and worker. It seems to me that that party ought to speak about this further. They have an obligation to give details as to what policy would mean to individual workers and wage earners. The government has in fact been trying to speed up the process of lessening the rate of inflation in ways that would have less risk of possible pain to various sectors of the econo-
May 11. 197C	COMMONS
my, through the development of programs administered by the Prices and Incomes Commission, programs through which all sectors of the economy would exercise a degree of restraint on a voluntary basis. Certainly, one would hope that there would be widening support for and participation in these programs.
To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I think I can assure the House that this government's aim is to make certain that we have a sound economy as the essential basis for high rates of employment and continuing and growing prosperity for all Canadians.
[DOT] (9:20 p.m.)


Gérard Laprise: I have just listened with interest to the remarks made by the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Gray). For a moment, I thought the party in power agreed with the motion introduced by my colleague, the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Rodrigue), which reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should take all necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power to meet their needs and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.
Up to now, no government member has risen in his place to express either his approval or disapproval of this motion, and after hearing the remarks made by the Minister without Portfolio, I feel he would have been better to follow his colleagues' example, because the arguments he put forward to refute those of the opposition are most ludicrous.
I regret to have to use such words to describe the minister's speech, but I believe he went to a lot of trouble to prove not only that his government is unable to fight inflation but that he and the government are apparently satisfied with the situation.
When my colleagues of the Ralliement Cre-ditiste made some suggestions, he said that his government had taken steps to combat inflation and ensure a high rate of employment in Canada. If those steps are the ones which led to the runaway rise of prices and the present very high rate of unemployment in Canada, they are highly ineffective, to say the least.
The Minister is repeating, in a different way perhaps, the very words spoken by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) on television a few days before Easter, when he was interviewed on the budget speech just brought down by the Finance Minister (Mr. Benson).
DEBATES	6831
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation Both of them told us that the steps taken to fight inflation had failed, but that they were being maintained just the same.
This means more or less: We don't know where we are heading, but let us go anyhow.
I do not think this is what Canadians expect from, their government or what they have a right to expect from a good government. What they want is prosperity, because we live in a rich country with abundant natural resources of all kinds. We practically do not have to resort to foreign countries to meet our essential requirements.
What Canadians clamour for, and we especially, of the Ralliement Creditiste, is prosperity which is not beyond our means. The Canadian citizen will only be prosperous if he gets an adequate income. The whole count-try will only be prosperous if the national income remains at a high level.
The tightening up and the freezing of capital bring about economic crises, and some experiences, especially those lived through since 1929, are not easily forgotten.
In order to maintain the national income at a high level, the purchasing power of the taxpayer must be high so as to enable him to meet the requirements of life. In other words, money must circulate freely, leaving in its wake profits and prosperity.
In his book entitled Stable Money, Eisler analyses that situation. Here are excerpts from that book.
It is obvious that the purchasing power of the consumer varies according to the total amount of money and credit available to him for foodstuffs and services for immediate consumption. Since the monetary unit makes it possible to buy variable quantities of goods, according as the average price of foodstuffs is high or low, the consumer's real purchasing power is equivalent to the total amount of his nominal monetary income over a given period of time, after deduction of his savings, multiplied by the reciprocal value of the retail sales price index, that is to say the purchasing power of the monetary unit.
If foodstuffs are to flow regularly from producer to consumer, the latter's purchasing power must represent the total monetary value of foodstuffs earmarked for immediate consumption and offered by producers during the same period. Such a state of tilings may be defined as the ideal or normal balance of national or world market. If, at some point, the purchasing power of consumers is greater that the means that industry or agriculture have to directly produce consumption goods, prices will increase and the prospects of profit will induce capital holders to increase their productive capacity by installing new machinery, by hiring more employees, thus allowing a further growth of consumer purchasing power.
May 11, 1970
6832	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
On the other hand, If the total amount of money available for the purchase of immediate consumption commodities is lower that the total value of goods offered by producers, prices will fall, production will be reduced and producers will abstain from expanding their plants or from increasing their staff, and this will further decrease the consumer's purchasing power.
Consequently, the conditions on the market of produced goods are entirely dependent on the situation of consumer goods. Both markets will be depressed and employment will generally decrease if not enough money is directed towards the second of those markets.
That book was written several years ago, and today again the same conditions exist. We are still in a depression, employment is ever decreasing. Consequently, the purchasing power of consumers is reduced.
In his motion, my colleague is precisely proposing to increase the purchasing power as a solution likely to solve the problem of poverty in Canada.
According to statisticians, the standard of living of nearly 25 per cent of the Canadian population is below the poverty line and those people are suffering from a lack of purchasing power.
[DOT] (9:30 p.m.)
Any new rise in the cost of living adds to their worries and to their destitution.
Members from the Ralliement creditiste and, before them, other Creditiste members have from time to time put forward proposals very similar to those I wish to make tonight. During the few minutes that I have left, I should like to explain the essence of Social Credit.
The object of the Social Credit's financial creed it to give all members of society, the liberty and security that the economic and social system should provide them with. To this end, instead of bringing down production to the level of the purchasing power, by destroying useful goods or limiting work, we should bring up the purchasing power to the level of our production capacity as regards useful goods.
In short, there should be a complete reversal of the present situation. As a matter of fact, this government has been doing the very opposite in trying to fight inflation. They tax the Canadian people in order to subsidize Western producers not to produce wheat. They set a penalty of $1.52 per cwt. in the case of the milk producers in the East and in other parts of Canada because they produce too much.
Industries are also penalized. They are almost forced to shut down thus taking away the consumer's purchasing power. Plants slow down or shut down because there is nobody to buy their production.
Such a situation has sprung up from the present system that is advocated by the Liberal party. Bringing down production to the level of the purchasing power, instead of lifting the purchasing power to the actual or potential production level, does not enable all Canadian citizens to satisfy their needs.
As for us, we advocate four major means to implement Social Credit. In the pamphlet entitled Le Credit social et la doctrine sociale de VEglise, one reads as follows:
1. The State must take over the control on the issue and volume of money and credit. The State could exercise that control through an independent commission empowered to achieve that object.
Some will perhaps accuse us of wanting to nationalize money or the banks. It is not so. Social Credit does not want to nationalize the banks; it wants to nationalize credit. I shall explain myself by resuming the quotation:
Two elements constitute real credit: the capacity to produce and the needs to be met. Those two elements are essential to real credit. But as producers and consumers make up, between them, the whole community, we can certainly deduct from that that real credit is common, is social in its origin; it belongs neither to the producers, nor the consumers, but to the common element, the community, the society of which each is a part.
And so, if real credit is social, if real credit is common, financial credit must in turn reflect real credit, and, also belong to society. It cannot be left in the hands of a few bankers who create and manipulate it as they wish, by issuing it in the form of loans with interest.
In this regard, let us go back to the speech of the hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette) in this House this afternoon. Indeed, he explained very well how bankers create and manipulate, according to their whims, the credit they grant with interest. I continue the quotation:
We then conclude that the creation of financial credit must not depend on the banks, but on the State or its agency, and the financial credit must be issued by the State or its representative.
In his book entitled "La Doctrine economique de 1'Eglise" (The Economic Doctrine of the Church), Dauphin-Meunier points out again the inconveniences of the creation of bank credit by private banks.
The contemporary commercial banks, he says, receive deposits only to re-use them; they borrow only to lend money, and they make loans only for production. The development of these operations which, since the beginning of the 20th century

May 11. 1970	COMMONS
are made only through accounting procedures, without the use of silver or paper money, has put in evidence the fact that banks have at their disposal a real new power, that which the Belgian economist Anciaux has called script money.
Such issues compete with or counteract in fact the privilege of central banks; besides, they give to commercial banks a considerable discretionary power since, if at the beginning it is a loan of the client to the bank which will allow the latter to make a loan to a third party, the use of this cover by cheque writing or transfer can in turn bring in new deposits. In England, it was revealed that nearly three quarters of the sums due by the banks to their clients are due to the banks by their clients, because those clients have borrowed those sums from the banks on one form or another.
There lies a serious risk of economic and financial rupture, of credit inflation. And the author of the book concludes then: The state is thus led to intervene in order to reduce the fluctuations of the cycle. It has to direct the distribution of bank credits in a manner consistent with the national public well; it has to nationalize credit.
I would like Mr. Speaker to endorse the guidelines given by Pope Puis XI in his Encyclical "Quadragesimo Anno" and I quote:
There are some categories of goods which may rightly be considered as set apart for the community and that is when the economic power they eventually bestow is such that it cannot be left into the hands of private individuals lest it should prejudice the common good.
It says further: "It si obvious that not only his wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power, a despotic economic distatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few, who often are not owners but only the trustees and managing directors of invested funds which they administer according to their own arbitrary will and pleasure."
This dictatorship is more forcibly exercised by those who, since they hold the money and completely control it, control credit also and rule the lending of money. Hence, they regulate the flow, so to speak, of the life blood whereby the entire economic system lives, and have so firmly in their grasp, the soul as it were, of economic life, that no one can breathe against their will.
This discretionary power is left today to private interests and we ask the government to retrieve it since it answerable to the people, whose business he is supposed to manage. That is why we ask the government to nationalize not the banks but the credit, in order to better adjust it to reality. That is all we want.
The government could more easily increase the purchasing power of the Canadian taxpayers if it used the third means I shall describe for the information of hon. members.
In fact, we say that the material resources of the nation represented by production constitute the basis of the credit money. This means that we do not ask the government or
DEBATES	6833
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation the agency that it will make responsible for the creation of credit, according to the needs of the country, to act without due consideration, but rather according to production.
[DOT] (9:40 p.m.)
Furthermore, the issuing of bank notes and the granting of credit should at all times correspond to the production so that a healthy balance is maintained between production and consumption. This balance would be ensured partially by means of a discount, the rate of which would necessarily fluctuate along with the value of production.
I would once again for the benefit of members and those who will have the opportunity to read the official report of the proceedings of the House of Commons explain what we mean by compensated discount.
If, for instance, a suit costs $80 and a merchant sells it to a buyer for $60, the latter is given a reduction of $20. Stores call this a discount.
This discount is equal to one-fourth of the price of the suit. Arithmetically, one would say that it is a 25 per cent discount.
Let us suppose that Mr. Dupont had $100. If he had paid the full price for the suit, he would have spent $80 and he would have only $20 left. Because of the discount, Mr. Dupont spent only $60 and still has $40, instead of only $20. He will still be able to buy $40 worth of goods instead of $20. That is why we say that the discount increases purchasing power.
Mr. Dupont's purchasing power is increased by $20. It is the same as if he had paid the full price and had been given $20. The discount is equivalent to a gift of money. However, to benefit from it, he must buy the merchandise on which a discount is offered.
The Creditistes are used to hearing about dividends and national dividends.
The national dividend is only money given freely to everyone. That is what Social Credit is advocating. The discount amounts to a dividend; it is not given to all but only to the buyer.
The effect of that discount on Mr. Dupont is the same as that of a dividend. In either case, he is given $20, but the impact on business is different.
When $20 is given directly to Mr. Dupont, he can spend it but he can also save it or speculate with it. However, in order to avail himself of the $20 discount, Mr. Dupont had to buy an $80 suit. The dividend is not tied
May 11, 1970
6834	COMMONS DEBATES
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation up by any action on the part of the recipient while the discount is linked with the purchase of an item.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired. Unless there is unanimous consent, the hon. member cannot go on. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Agreed.


Gérard Laprise: Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for its kindness. I will try to conclude my explanation as quickly as possible.
In the business world as we know it today, discounts are granted to purchasers for various reasons. It is up to the dealer to decide whether or not a discount is to be granted. He claims that it is to the advantage of the purchasers. But this is doubtful since the dealer does not want to give anything for nothing. Indeed, he is prompted to give the discount for another reason: he sees something in it for himself or he wants to reduce a loss. As a matter of fact, the products that pile up could turn out to be a complete loss. Instead of losing everything, the dealer sells his products at a discount; the purchaser is happy with that and, as far as the dealer is concerned, without being fully satisfied, he is nevertheless less unhappy than if he had made no profit at all. Perhaps he did so in order to sell a greater number of suits. If a suit cost the dealer $50, he would have made a $30 benefit had he sold it for $80. When he sells it for $80, his profit is cut down to $10. On the other hand, if, having slashed his price, he sells five times more suits, his profit then is five times $10 instead of one time $300.
So, whatever are the reason for which the dealer grants a discount, he expects a negative or a positive compensation. He may not get it but he tries to. He makes every effort to get it. I just described the ordinary discount granted by ordinary dealers.
Let us deal now with Social credit, the credit for society.
According to the Social Credit, theory, the discount is national like the dividend, that is to say that the discount is general like the dividend. It is granted to every buyer of any consumer commodity just as the dividend is granted to every citizen without exception. As the discount is granted by the nation, it is the nation that has to see to the compensation so that the dealer should not suffer any loss. This is why the National Credit Board, 
the same which issues money to everybody as dividends, issues also money to dealers for the discounts they have to grant to buyers.
In selling the dress to Mr. Dupont at $60 the dealer looses $20. The National Credit Board which is responsible for the discount granted to Mr. Dupont must compensate it in sending to the dealer a cheque for $20. On what guarantee shall the National Credit Board draw this cheque for $20? On Canada's production capacity, exactly as it would be for a dividend. So the dealer will get the amount of $80 which he normally should have got. Mr. Dupont keeps the $20 extra. Therefore it is Mr. Dupont who will finally draw $20 more on Canada's production. The compensated discount is therefore the new money which has been given to the dealer, but in favour of the buyer. This assistance for the buyer increases the number of sales and we all know that today the dealer tries to sell more goods by granting discount.
In a creditiste regime, the dealer would get the same result without running risks and without reducing his profit on every item.
The compensated discount is therefore profitable to everyone. For the dealer, it is better than a dividend, because the latter can remain unapplied, while the discount has required a purchase of goods.
However, the dividend maintains also its importance, even from the dealer's point of view, because even if there are all kinds of discounts, when non-salaried people have no money, they do not purchase anything. Therefore, no discounts are given. Dividends create a basis for discounts and discounts tend to increase the purchasing power of dividends and salaries. A discount without dividend equals to a salary increase. It is insufficient in a world where progress reduces salaries continually.
A discount accompanied by a dividend constitutes also a salary increase. In short, it constitutes a dividend increase for everyone, whether they are salaried or not.
Mr. Speaker, why do we claim a national dividend and a compensated discount? Because in today industrial structure, as well as in the organization of services, whether public transportation or otherwise, they permit a very substantial production calling for increasingly low levels of labour.
As a result, in the face of our present affluence, the global wages of Canadians steadily decreases.
May 11, 1970

But although individuals receive less and less revenue in the form of wages, they are at least entitled to benefit by the wealth provided by machines, experience, new inventions and the present production.
That is why we suggest a distribution of national dividends and compensated discount, not derived from taxes, but created by the Bank of Canada reporting to the government and based on the production offered to Canadian consumers. In this spirit, we have brought forward the motion which is being debated tonight and from which I quote:
...Increase consumer purchasing power to meet their needs and to improve the flow of goods in Canada through the use of techniques designed to check rising costs and combat inflation.
In making those proposals, we still wonder how the Canadian people could have been so patient for years and tolerate such a system as the one we have now.
We see poverty in the midst of affluence. The Ralliement Creditiste is demanding once again that this affluence be made available to Canadians.


Mr. Andre Fortin (Loibiniere):: Mr. Speaker, the motion before the House provides us with an opportunity to reflect seriously on today's economic and monetary system, while prompting members to look for positive solutions to the problem we are facing.
There was a time when all our efforts were concentrated on production. I have no intention of repeating what my colleagues from Abitibi and Beauce (Messrs. Laprise and Rodrigue) have said with such spirit about the theories of Social Credit, which I sincerely and fully endorse.
During the few minutes at my disposal, I should like to tell the House the difference between the long term policy of Social Credit and that of the present government, if it can be called a long term policy because the government has not even drafted a short term policy.
There was a time when all our efforts were concentrated on production. They helped industrialize the country, reduce sometimes considerable distances from coast to coast, create jobs and dominate natural elements.
[DOT] (9:50 p.m.)
This was accomplished through human resources, technics and money, either scrip money or any other.
DEBATES	6835
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation
We have succeeded so well that today we can say without fear that our productive capacity is endless. In other words, the problem lies somewhere else.
There is however a prejudice prevailing in Canada and in this house, that the greater our productivity, the greater our prosperity.
This notion was forced upon us in the course of our studies, at the university or here, in the house. It is a truth of the industrial period. In the post-industrial era, it becomes a prejudice which I must fight, because it is not true that the greater our productivity, the greater our prosperity.
It is precisely what the Creditistes are challenging, because even if production is continuously rising, poverty and destitution are also increasing. We see it every day.
In other words, a higher production does not necessarily eradicate poverty and injustice. The government, while advocating an increased production, is taking steps which are prejudicial to consumers. They are not selective measures based on his capacity to pay, in order to protect those who are unable to do so and try to distribute our created wealth, but fiscal, monetary and other measures applying uniformly to all. Finally only the very rich can manage at worst with a few scratches, while the underdog, the poor, the farmers, the workers, the unemployed, the social welfare recipients, the young are caught in government machinery and unable to extricate themselves.
However, the government retorts that there are social security allowances paid out of the taxpayers' money. Once again, the government deprives certain taxpayers of purchasing power to give it to other.
In this way, he reduces purchasing power by as much, so we are not any better off and the gap between the rich and the poor becomes wider.
That is why I enthusiastically support the motion of the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Rodrigue) which reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the Government should take all necessary steps to increase consumer purchasing power-
Mr. Speaker, what is the present policy of the Liberal Government and what was that of the Progressive Conservative government that preceded irt? Both advocate, first, increased production, second, restriction of purchasing power.
How does the government limit consumption?
Consumer Purchasing Power and Inflation By levying taxes. The purchasing power is thus removed without making any distinction between the one in a position to invest in Canada and the other who is not and, therefore, poverty increases in this wealthy country.
When the government of Quebec informs us, for instance, that it will create 100,000 jobs, does it really solve the economic problem? No. And here is what the Creditistes are saying: it is very well to create jobs but a guaranteed minimum income must also be provided to every Canadian citizen so that he may share in the national production.
We shall then have created a system likely to ensure some kind of economic justice to every Canadian.
When a youth, for instance, drops out of school for some reason or another, mostly for lack of money, he enters the labour market or rather, the unemployment market.
Today, our main industry is social welfare. It is the main one in Victoriaville, in the riding of Lotbiniere and elsewhere, in the ridings of the members opposite. I am surprised to note that they keep silent, that they do not participate in the debate. It would seem that, for them, the problem does not exist.
Mr. Speaker, the people on welfare are supported by the state. The government gives them pensions from the taxpayers' moneys. They do not contribute to production. They want to take part to it provided they do not have to pay back as income tax what they have already received in the form of pensions.
I suggest the government, whether it be liberal or conservative, has a long and a short arm. The long one reaches into the taxpayers' pockets. And the short one gives away money only to those who are close at hand. Of course, this is patronage.
According to the Social credit, the government should not be one-armed; it must be strong. Both its arms must be of the same length. One must go into every taxpayer's pockets and the other one must hand out national dividends, which would not come from debts and taxes. Thanks to the national dividend and to the compensated discount, we shall be able to give each citizen his share of national production and wealth.
We want a sound government and a healthy country, not a crippled country and a limping government. That is why I support this motion. And I hope that my honorable colleagues 
May 11, 1970
who did not rise in the course of this debate, and I am thinking especially of the government members, will read at least the official report of the House of Commons, so that they might see the light, because it does not seem that they have a very great amount of brains.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: It being ten o'clock, it is my duty to inform the House that pursuant to Standing Order 58 (11), the debate is deemed to be concluded.


[Stage Direction]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 40 deemed to have been moved.
Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: Mr. Speaker, on April 23 I directed a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Dube) with respect to the attitude of the government concerning the veterans charter. I asked immediately for the privilege of bringing this matter up further at the ten o'clock adjournment because on that occasion the Minister of Veterans Affairs replied that veterans benefits are a part of social legislation, not social welfare. The reason there has been further delay in discussing this matter is the absence of the Minister of Veterans Affairs from the country in connection with the conmemoration held in Holland recently of the end of World War II.
Unfortunately, I see the Minister of Veterans Affairs is not in the House tonight so I doubt that we will get a specific answer at this time. However, I will proceed to try to point out to the House and the veterans of this country why I am pursuing this matter at the present time and asking for something much more specific than the answer I received on April 23.
[DOT] (10:00 p.m.)
There is a tendency on the part of the government to remove, not by direct action but rather by stealth and indirection, some of the traditional rights which we regard as the essential part of the veterans charter. I refer to action such as in the case of the dismissed commissionaires which took place at National

May 11. 1970

Museum just over a year ago, and the lay-offs in the civil service which seemed to deny the traditional right of the veterans' preference. Having heard from veterans associations, I know that the Canadian Corps, the War Amps, the Royal Canadian Legion and the National Council of War Veterans Associations have written directly to the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) as well as to the Minister of Veterans Affairs to get a specific reply to this vital question on the present status of the veterans charter. There has been no reply to those letters.
So that there will be no mistake as to what we mean by veterans charter, I shall read a few excerpts from a book entitled "Rehabilitation-A Combined Operation," published by the Department of Veterans Affairs, which lays down the basic background of the veterans charter. I shall first read from chapter 1, the heading of which is "Facing the Problem." It outlines the program and says:
It Is regarded as a preferred charge on the country's reserve; an obligation that must be fulfilled; part of the cost of freedom. .. there is a preponderance of opinion that strongly favours generous. . .treatment for exservicemen.
At page 9 the question is asked:
"What should the country do in an endeavour, so far as this can reasonably be done, to replace the years 'that the locust hath eaten'? What does the country owe to those who, forsaking everything, offered their lives in its defence-to try and compensate for the time that was lost and the opportunities that were missed?"
At page 10 the answer is given:
One soon reaches the conclusion that in many, many cases it is impossible to compensate the veteran for all he has lost. For those who have1 suffered injury or disease the best that the state can do is to provide medical and surgical treatment in an endeavour to restore the individual, as far as science can, to the maximum of his capacity and, when this is done, to provide compensation for whatever residual disability remains.
I submit that there is the essence of the veterans Magna Carta. I further suggest that when the minister says in an answer that veterans rights are now considered as social policy, rather than on the basis of the traditional veterans charter, this is a further erosion of the special rights of those men and women who served their country. I hope that tonight we get a definitive answer to the question: Does the veterans charter still stand as it was outlined in the book published by the Department of Veterans Affairs in 1953, or is it now a part of Canada's general social welfare policy?

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion
On Friday evening the nation paid tribute to these men and women who served their country and the minister himself quoted these words from Lawrence Binyon:
They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow
old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.
To paraphrase that last line, it means we will remember them not only in words but in deeds, and most certainly in the continuation of this program that was laid down by the Parliament of Canada. This program was not for the immediate post-war period; it was for all time, as long as the veterans of the country continued to survive and continued to require the special attention of the people of Canada.


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Dube) is addressing tonight the annual dinner of the RCAF Benevolent Fund and has asked me to reply to the hon. member for Brandon-Souris (Mr. Dinsdale). The minister was ready to appear on the "late show'' on the date that the hon. member first asked his question, but at the time the hon. member did not put it on for debate. The hon. member asks-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. This question did not come forward because the minister was not here. You might be able to get away with misrepresentation on wheat, but you cannot get away with the veterans of Canada-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please.


Otto Emil Lang: The hon. member asks-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: You can pull off the same stuff on wheat.


Otto Emil Lang: -whether it is the policy of the government to integrate the veterans charter with general welfare programs. He also asks whether veterans legislation is social legislation. Veterans legislation is of course social legislation. As has been said before, it is certainly not economic legislation or cultural, external affairs or defence legislation. It falls, without any doubt, within the broad category of social legislation.
However, there is quite a distinction between social legislation and social welfare. No one is implying that veterans pensions are social welfare. Of course, they are not wel-
6838	COMMONS
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion fare. They are based on neither a means test nor a needs test. Disability pensions are based on the veteran's degree of disability and not on his other earnings, and are awarded as a matter of right.
War veterans allowances are also particular to veterans in the sense that there are restrictions in eligibility. In order to qualify for war veterans allowance a veteran must have served overseas. There is also a means test involved, and in that sense they are much closer to welfare legislation than pensions. But the veterans charter does include much more than war veterans allowances and disability pensions; it also takes in treatments, Veterans' Land Act and other benefits. All told, the department is estimating expenditures of almost half a billion dollars this year in implementation of the veterans charter.
With reference to pensions and allowances, it has been said on many occasions in this House that they were under review within the broad framework of the total fabric of social legislation in this country. When announcements are to be made in this connection, they will be made in the proper way and in due course, and certainly not as a response to a question. I should think that the minister's own words would have reassured the hon. member.


Thomas Miller Bell: His words do not reassure anybody. Neither do yours.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: You are not talking about wheat now.


Thomas Miller Bell: The minister didn't learn much the other night.


Mr. Lome Nysirom (Yorkion-Melville):: Mr. Speaker, on March 17 I put the following question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson):
In view of the minister's statement on television over the weekend that unemployment will De higher in 1970 than it was in 1969, can the minister assure the House that high unemployment areas such as the Maritimes, eastern Quebec and the Prairies will not suffer from even higher unemployment in 1970 as a result of the government's anti-inflation policies.
It is nearly two months since I put that question. The statistics now before us point out very clearly that regionally-depressed areas such as those I have mentioned are indeed suffering higher unemployment. Per-

DEBATES	May 11, 1970
haps I can spend two minutes to compare the unemployment rate in the three areas with what it was three years ago. In 1963, in the Maritimes, unemployment was 10.6 per cent of the work force. In March, 1970, it was 10.8 per cent. The same thing in Quebec-in 1967, 7.2 per cent of the labour force was unemployed and three years later in March, 1970, it was 9.2 per cent. This is for the entire province of Quebec, Mr. Speaker, not just for the depressed areas and the eastern part of the province. On the Prairies the unemployment rate jumped from 2.7 per cent to 5.2 per cent in the same three-year period. A province such as Saskatchewan is harder hit because it is more dependent than Alberta, say, in respect of agriculture and the wheat industry. Even those bare statistics point out that these areas are being hit harder than most other parts of Canada. Because of the government's anti-inflationary policy more people are unemployed proportionately in these areas than in other parts of Canada.
Looking back over the last election campaign there seems to be quite a contradiction in the main issue expressed then by the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau). He talked about national unity and about correcting regional inequalities and disparities. It seems to me there are more regional disparities today than there were two or three years ago before this Prime Minister came into power. More people in the provinces are unemployed now than there were three years ago. The whole economy of Saskatchewan has slowed down in the last three years. This is a very serious problem of which the government must take heed.
[DOT] (10:10 p.m.)


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: Liberal times are bad times.


Lorne Edmund Nystrom: As the hon. member for Regina-Lake Centre (Mr. Benjamin) has just said, Liberal times are bad times. Most people in Saskatchewan with whom I have talked agree when I say this. We must look at the problem. It is affecting not only the farmers in Saskatchewan and those working in small towns, but the businessmen. As a matter of fact, every month hundreds of people are leaving the province.
Another point I should mention is that the cure the government has introduced for inflation seems to be worse than the disease itself. It seems to me that by encouraging high interest rates, by creating unemployment,
May 11, 1970	COMMONS
freezing old age pensions and discouraging spending on building involving housing, schools and hospitals the government is only widening the gap between the "haves" and "have nots" in our society and between the different regions of this country. It is penalizing the poor, the pensioners and those who are not skilled, because they are the ones who are paying the price of the government's fight against inflation. This cannot be tolerated, and the government must immediately change this policy.
In conclusion, I think the government must realize that it must emphasize special regional development plans-because if it does not do so, people in many areas of this country will suffer more. Whether you live in the Mari-times or eastern Quebec should not determine the sort of chance you will have to make your way in life. The people in the Maritimes are not presented with the opportunities open to people in Toronto or Vancouver. People in all regions of Canada must be given the opportunity to play their role. At the moment, where they live often determines the opportunity that they and their families will have in life.
The government must guarantee that the people in the various regions of the country will not suffer because of the fight against inflation. The people of the Maritimes, eastern Quebec and the Prairies should not bear the brunt of the government's fight against inflation. The government must ensure in its plans that the people of these regions do not suffer as a result of its policies, because if those people continue suffering we should not ask why our people are unhappy and why national unity is being challenged: the reasons are plain to be seen in black and white.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Now we will get it in "gray."


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: -the federal government has in fact been providing substantial assistance to the less prosperous areas of the country through a wide variety of programs which have been helping to offset the impact of general fiscal and monetary restraints. During the current fiscal year some $755 million will be paid to the Atlantic provinces, Quebec, Manitoba and Saskatchewan in equalization grants, an increase of $81 million over last year. While no breakdown is available by areas, a substantial part of the budget of $420
DEBATES	6839
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion million this year for manpower training, capital grants and mobility assistance grants provided by the Department of Manpower and Immigration will be spent for the benefit of workers in these slow-growth regions of Canada. The total program of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, which this year involves expenditures, loans and investments of $353.7 million-an increase of $120 million over last year's estimate's program- is concentrated exclusively in the areas of slower growth.
The farm credit program, the LIFT program and federal public works projects represent other measures that serve to offset the possible restrictive effects of the government's anti-inflationary program. In addition, the Bank of Canada has asked the chartered banks to give special consideration to the needs of borrowers in these regions. I might point out that the federal government's regional development program was a major issue in the Prince Edward Island provincial election. I have just received a report that the latest returns show 27 Liberals elected out of a total of 32 seats in the House. At the very least it would appear that the Liberals have won a clear majority, a resounding victory. Here is a group of people who have expressed a positive judgment on this government's efforts in the field of regional development to help them and others in slow-growth regions across Canada.


Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskaloon-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, on April 17 I asked the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Lang) in charge of the Wheat Board some questions with regard to the information that went out in bulletin No. 2 on operation LIFT. Bulletin No. 2 stated that documents would have to be signed by a Commissioner of Oaths attesting to the fact that the commissioner had personally inspected the field in question, that oat crops had been dealt with in such and such a manner, etc. I asked who would pay the travelling expenses for the Commissioner of Oaths. If the Commissioner of Oaths happens to be from the centre of the city of Saskatoon, the question arises whether he will really know what is happening in a particular field. I did not get an answer at that time. That is why I asked for the privilege of pursuing the matter in the House this evening.
May 11. 1970

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion Since that time some new regulations have been issued. They have been gazetted. There is nothing in them about the Commissioner oi Oaths. The first bulletin regarding operation LIFT indicates that the farmer must take acreage out of wheat and put it into summer-fallow in order to collect whatever moneys are going to be available. In the document tabled the other day it states:
Subject to these regulations, the Minister of Agriculture may make a wheat inventory reduction payment to an applicant in an amount equal to $6.00 per acre for each acre of eligible land referred to in his application by which the number of acres of land seeded to wheat in the calendar year 1970 is less than the number of acres of land seeded to wheat in the calendar year 1969 and in respect of which he has applied for and received a permit book for the 1970-71 crop year.
Summerfallow is not mentioned in these regulations. It is time the minister and the government clarified these instructions in detail. Bulletin No. 2 reads:
There will be a farm-to-farm inspection program and offenders will be penalized. Inspection will include measuring fields.
It is about time the minister told us the method to be used to measure these fields. I do not think that is funny, Mr. Speaker: I cannot think of anything more ridiculous than someone rolling around my farm measuring the fields. If they are well paid to do this, they probably will do so. However, it will be an extremely expensive operation. I refer again to the information tabled in the House the other day. It says in effect that the farmer will have to make a declaration. Then it says that where any information is given-
[DOT]-the information shown in that permit book shall, in the absence of evidence satisfactory to the Minister to Agriculture to show that the information was incorrect, be deemed to be correct for the purposes of the application.
The minister should state fairly, frankly and honestly the rules of the game. A previous document stated there would be an inspection. The official document which was tabled recently states something quite different. Now we get another officially-tabled document which says something quite different.
[DOT] (10:20 p.m.)
The livelihood of a great many farmers depends on how well this operation is carried out. Goodness knows, they will be penalized enough because the operation will reduce income generally in western Canada. But at least the process should be clearly defined 
and well set out so that everyone would know what the regulations are, how they will be carried out and what rights the farmer will possess. He needs to know. If the department releases a flock of inspectors, many of them ill-informed and ill-trained, the farmer had better know what his rights are so that he can protect himself from absence of information or plain clumsiness on the part of inspectors.
The heading in the last issue of the Western Producer reads, "Chaos in Marketing Feared". The reference is to the board of directors of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool in the event that extra delivery points are opened up. This is a no-man's land which the farmers and the people generally are facing in western Canada.


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has managed to ask a number of questions in the time available to him and I am not sure I will be able to do them justice in the few minutes allotted to me. If he looks back to the original question he asked on April 17 and the answer he received from me to the effect that the question of how the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Olson) might be satisfied on the subject of the removal of the cover crop was in the process of being determined, he will realize that we were in fact considering at that time a possible change or modification so as to give greater flexibility in the way in which the removal of cover crops could be assumed.
The regulations have specified that the minister must be satisfied. This flexibility has been provided because until the exact number of acres under cover crops is known, it is not known which method might be required to ensure that farmers have complied. This is of no concern to farmers who will comply, because the system will be suitable for them; it is only for those who might be inclined not to comply, and this is bound to be a very small proportion.
As far as the question of measuring acres is concerned, it is our intention that use shall be made of aerial surveys. This will make possible a fairly good assessment of the indications which farmers have given in their application forms. Inspections may be required in cases of gross breach; special measures may be required. Again, there should be no fear on the part of farmers ordinarily complying with the program.
The hon. member seems to think we have made some change in the way in which pay-
May 11. 1970	COMMONS
ment will be made because of the reference in the regulations to payment on the basis of eligible acres. We encountered some difficulty in trying to persuade the hon. member before the regulations were out that he should rely rather more on the detailed or explanatory comments than on the legal language of the regulations themselves, but to no avail. Now he has fallen into the trap of reading the regulations in error. If he would read them
DEBATES	6841
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion more carefully, he would find that eligible land is defined in the first part of the regulations and that this is to be read together with the later section. However, if he lacks good legal advice over there I will be delighted to put him in touch with some well-known and competent lawyers in our region of the country.
Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 10.26 p.m.
6843

Tuesday, May 12, 1970