1970-03-11

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


[Stage Direction]
Fourth, fifth and sixth reports of Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs-Mr. Tolmie.
[Editor's Note: For text of above reports, see today's Votes and Proceedings.]


Hon. Ron Basford (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table two copies in the two official languages of a report by the Prices and Incomes Commission on "Steel and Inflation", and at the same time I should like to take the opportunity to announce the appointment of Bertram G. Barrow, as a commissioner of the Prices and Incomes Commission with special responsibility for the commission's price review program.



REGIONAL ECONOMIC EXPANSION


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Regional Economic Expansion):: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to announce the areas that, effective April 1, 1970, will be designated as "special areas", under the provisions of the Government Organization Act establishing my department. The areas are:
(A)	In eastern Canada, six urban areas where we expect that my department's incentives to industry will bring about substantially faster industrial growth. To support this growth, my department is ready to finance community facilities-water, sewers, roads, schools and so on-which are needed but
which the cities and provinces cannot afford. These urban areas of eastern Canada are as follows: In Newfoundland, St. John's and a surrounding area including the Conception Bay coast from Portugal Cove to Carbonear. In Nova Scotia, the metropolitan area of Hali-fax-Dartmouth. In New Brunswick, the city of Saint John as well as the city of Moncton and neighbouring areas. In Quebec, the city of Quebec and vicinity as well as the area of Trois-Rivieres, Shawinigan, Grand'Mere and Becancour.

(B)	In Saskatchewan the urban areas are Regina and Saskatoon.
These cities were not included in the designated region under the industrial incentives program of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, because they have in recent, years enjoyed very rapid growth. They are now, however, adversely affected by wheat and potash marketing problems. Under the departmental legislation, incentives will be offered to encourage alternative industrial employment.
[DOT] (2:10 p.m.)
(C)	In Eastern Canada, three areas whose locations give them potential for growth but which may be held back by difficulties in financing community development. These areas are: in Newfoundland, Corner Brook and its environs; in Nova Scotia, the area round the Strait of Canso; and in Quebec, Sept Iles-Port Cartier.
(D)	In Newfoundland, six additional areas which contain resettlement centres for people moving from the outports. In some of these centres there is special need for improved water and sewer facilities for housing, schools and roads. The areas are: the part of the Burin Peninsula that includes Fortune, Grand Bank, Garnish, St. Lawrence, Burin and Marystown; the area of Grand Falls, Bot-wood, Lewisporte and Gander; the area of Stephenville and St. George's; the area of Hawke's Bay, Port Saunders and Port au Choix; the area of Come-By-Chance, Arnold's Cove and Goobies; the Happy Valley area in Labrador.
(E)	In the prairie provinces, three midnorthern areas that can be assisted by indus-

March 11. 1970
Designation of Special Areas trial incentives for the development of forest-based operations and other resource industries and which require improved community facilities, particularly to assist the economic and social progress of Indian and Metis people. These areas are: in Manitoba, an area around The Pas; in Saskatchewan, the Meadow Lake area extending north to Lac la Loche; in Alberta, an area centred on Lesser Slave Lake and including Whitecourt and High Prairie.

(F)	In Ontario and Quebec, two areas where improved employment and income prospects depend on encouragement to forest-based industry and other industrial incentives. These areas are:
Cl) In Quebec, the Lac St.-Jean area.
(2) In Ontario, the area including Renfrew, Pembroke, Arnprior, Bancroft and Barry's Bay.
The provinces concerned have been consulted about these designations, and the precise boundaries of the areas will be specified in agreements with the provinces.
The initial designations will be effective to June 30, 1972, the same date as for the present designations under the industrial incentives legislation.
The agreements that are now being made with the provinces will be for the same period as the designations. For most of the areas, however, it is expected that these agreements will be followed by further joint development plans extending over a five-year period.
The present agreements will provide mainly for priority projects whose construction can be started in the next few months. These projects will involve commitments of federal funds to an amount of more than $200 million.
That sum is, of course, for the financing of provincial and municipal projects, over and above our greatly increased commitments to the private sector, for industrial development incentives.
The first agreements will be signed shortly with Newfoundland and New Brunswick and will cover arrangements for financing highway construction as well as projects in the special areas.


Mr. Walter C. Carter (St. John's West):: Mr. Speaker, we in the official opposition welcome the minister's announcement this afternoon. We have been waiting impatiently IMr. Marchand (Langeller).]
for the new department to come alive. The creation of the new department a year ago was heralded as a cure-all for the economic disparities in Canada, and this is the first indication that the minister or his department was even aware that these disparities existed.
We are happy, sir, that the minister has recognized that disparities exist in urban centres as well as the rural areas because some of the worst pockets of poverty in this country exist in the major urban areas.
The greatest curse in this country at this time is regional disparity. For the last 20 months the government has been giving lip service to its promise of a just society. Mr. Speaker, we feel that the great division in this country is not over language or culture but over economics-meat and potatoes. Eliminate the economic depression and there will be no threat to national unity in Canada. Confederation will take on more meaning, especially for the have-not areas, if what is outlined by the minister today is successful in erasing economic blight.
Some time ago in this House the Minister of Transport said that confederation has been a blessing for my province of Newfoundland. Sir, I agree it has been, but there are many promises which still have not been fulfilled. This program has been long awaited by my province, and indeed by all of the other have-not provinces.
We have not yet had the opportunity to study in detail what is planned, but this program is crucial for Newfoundland in order to get the province out of the financial mess in which it now finds itself. I think, Mr. Speaker, that eliminating the present scandalous unemployment in Quebec will once and for all silence those who preach separatism there.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Walter C. Carter: The promised assistance for Saskatchewan cannot come too soon. People are moving out of that province at a rate greater than during the depression. I am told that approximately 7,000 people are leaving that province every year. I am also told that many car dealers there have been taken over by the automobile manufacturers because they just cannot keep going as private enterprises. In the Regina area alone a reported 1,000 homes are standing empty. The construction industry is in one of its slowest periods ever, and we are told that several farm machinery dealers are going belly up.
So far, Mr. Speaker, the minister's statement is merely words. If these words are
March 11, 1970

translated into real action I am sure members on this side of the House will be the first to give full credit to the minister.


Mr. John Burlon (Regina East):: Mr. Speaker, to the extent that the minister's announcement will help areas of Canada facing economic problems, and to the extent that it will help people facing economic problems it will certainly be welcomed. But it should be remembered that the drawing of a boundary, or pointing at a specific community, is the last step of a process that will be meaningful only if it has been preceded by an adequate determination of objectives, what it is the Department of Regional Economic Expansion is setting out to accomplish, and followed by an adequate allocation of financial and other resources.
The government's announcement-I want to thank the minister for making a copy of it available to us, together with supporting material, earlier today-gives no information on the extent of assistance to particular communities, or the approach to be taken in providing assistance to the special areas established. Surely the government has had enough time since the department was established last year to develop a more adequate approach.
The confusion concerning the government's programs will be compounded as a result of questions which quite naturally will be asked concerning the reasons why primary, secondary and service industries can be assisted in the special areas just announced, and only secondary industry can qualify for assistance in the designated areas announced last summer. The programs of this department, if continued in this manner, will end up in one huge jumble. Unfortunately, ever since the new department was established its programs have been characterized by confusion, indecision and lack of adequate planning.
[DOT] (2:20 p.m.)
In addition to the elimination of regional disparities the government has for some time attempted to delude the Canadian public with the impression that its regional development program is a major weapon in its war on poverty and is also a major weapon to counteract the adverse regional effects of its over-all economic policies. In both respects the government's policies have been a complete failure. Unemployment rates have continued to rise in Canada and are currently 6.1 per cent for the nation as a whole. It is admitted that unemployment will go higher
Designation of Special Areas before the winter is over. Such rates of unemployment for Canada mean unemployment rates of 10 to 12 per cent in some regions of Canada. The government's program has done nothing to reduce the disparity in unemployment rates and in over-all economic well-being.
It is also clear that the government's antiinflation policy is not working. It is succeeding in dragging the economy down in a way which increases unemployment without lessening the rate of price increases. The New Democratic Party for some time has called on the government to change the direction of its policy and outlined its own proposals in some detail in a minority report on interest rates and inflation last month.
When regional development legislation was before the House of Commons last summer, it was held up as the blueprint for future action and, in particular, the designated areas program under the Regional Development Incentives Act was regarded as the key.
The first major step announced by the minister last summer was the establishment of certain designated areas across Canada. Subsequent questions and inquiries have established that the government's approach on these areas was nothing more than a political exercise unsupported by any sort of satisfactory criteria. The government abandoned its growth centre approach talked about so much when the legislation was introduced.
Information obtained on the operation of the designated areas to date shows that in some cases government assistance amounts to 70 per cent of the total cost of the project. Canadians have a right to expect that the government should have some equity in the project when that proportion of public money is involved.
It has also been shown that a considerable portion of the grants offered are being given to foreign controlled industries. In fact, the government is encouraging non-resident controlled industries to take advantage of incentive grants as illustrated in the answer to a question asked by myself where it was reported that the department has advertised its programs in New York and Boston papers.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have to interrupt the hon. member. It is always difficult for the Chair to determine at what point an hon. member has gone beyond the limits imposed upon comments on ministerial statements. I have to remind hon. members that
March 11. 1970

Designation of Special Areas the comments which are allowed under Standing Order 15 should be brief. Perhaps the hon. member might consider bringing his remarks to a close at an early moment.


John Stratford Burton: Mr. Speaker, I had just about concluded my remarks but there were two further points I did want to draw to the attention of the government. One was the failure to take more adequate action to deal with the problems of the Indian and Metis people. I recognize that the programs-


Some hon. Members:: Order!


John Stratford Burton: -three of the programs announced in the prairie provinces will certainly have-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I am sure the hon. member would want to take into account the suggestion I made a moment ago, that perhaps he is going beyond the limitation of the Standing Order. If the hon. member will consult the rules he will see that the comments he makes should be brief and should refer more particularly and specifically to the statement made in the House by the minister. It seems to me the hon. member is now going rather beyond the terms of the statement.


John Stratford Burton: Mr. Speaker, I was noting that the minister has included in his statement some programs which are of benefit to the Indian and Metis people in certain parts of Canada. I regret it was not possible to develop a more adequate program to deal with this area of problems in view of the very great needs the Indian and Metis people face across Canada.
Finally, I should like to note that I am very pleased some help has been provided for the province of Saskatchewan. That province is facing very serious economic problems and the old designated areas established were quite inadequate. I am pleased that the area of northwestern Saskatchewan has been included and that the cities of Regina and Saskatoon have been established as special areas. The problems faced by businessmen and many people out of work in Regina are well known. It seems to me the provision of programs for these areas is essential if we are to have growth and economic recovery-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I suggest to the hon. member that he has now completed his statement.


Mr. Real Caoueiie (Temiscamingue):: Mr. Speaker, I find it rather funny that the mi-

nister should announce the designation of 22 "special areas" in eight Canadian provinces.
At the last elections, in 1968, he said along with newspaper men that the least advanced regions of Quebec had voted for the Ralliement Creditiste. But I find that the "designated areas" in Quebec, precisely because they are underdeveloped, elected Liberal members at the last elections.
Mr. Speaker, two years ago, we initiated the establishment of designated areas in order to fight poverty effectively. And now, it is found that "special areas" are required because the designated areas have not solved anything. In a year or six months, the minister may perhaps designate extra-special, para-special or intra-special areas, to carry on the war against poverty.
Mr. Speaker, not only did the minister explain what was a "special area", but he also stated that the "special areas" had been designated by the federal government after consultation with the provincial government concerned.
So that is the paradox which we are now facing in my own district of Northwestern Quebec: Representations are made to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Greene) for the maintenance of gold mining subsidies, because it seems that 2,000 gold miners are to be dismissed in the Val d'Or-Malartic-Rouyn area, as well as on the Ontario side.
The minister claims that we should discontinue subsidies to gold mines when we can certainly export our total gold production to the United States.
When designating 22 "special zones" a region which is directly affected is being omitted. Lake St. John region is considered to be a logging region. The minister knows that the North-Western Quebec logging region is equal to that of Lake St. John or any other in the province.
I would not like the minister to think I am against the Lake St. John region benefiting by special measures established but what I do say is that our North-Western Quebec region should likewise be designated as a "special region" and benefit from government measures because we are now facing a most serious situation economically, politically and socially.
I think the minister should look into the possibility of making it a special area and of preventing the closing of the mines.
March 11, 1970

The minister said that setting up an infrastructure would help those areas by the building of schools, roads, and so on. But there is an infrastructure not referred to by the minister, and it is the monetary infrastructure which keeps its diabolical grip over human beings and leaders alike, including the minister. The problem is not to be solved by the designation of such special areas, because neither the minister nor the government bothers to look for the trouble.
I know that the minister will make the headlines tomorrow in all media, especially on the CBC. I do understand that, but this is no solution.
Neither the CBC nor the press settles economic problems which have to be dealt with by a political philosophy resting on sturdy foundations. I therefore say to the minister that if the Social Credit system were implemented we would settle Canada's economic problems.
[DOT] (2:30 p.m.)



U.S. IMPORT RESTRICTIONS-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43

Mr. J. H. Horner (Crowfoot):: Mr. Speaker, under the terms of Standing Order 43 I ask the unanimous consent of the House to propose a motion based upon an urgent and pressing necessity which arises out of the following circumstances.
The President of the United States yesterday made a statement regarding restrictions on imports of Canadian oil by the United States. This statement, and a subsequent briefing by a United States official, leaves unanswered questions of concern to many Canadians, namely, whether the Canadian government will comply with the United States order inasmuch as, according to statements which have been made, the Canadian government is to be the agent in administering this cutback; whether the government intends to challenge any of the fallacious assumptions upon which this decision was based; whether it is the view of the Canadian government that the present level of exports was endangering Alberta's reserve capacity, whether the Canadian government was considering similar cutbacks if, as alleged in the United States briefing, the Americans had not decided to apply one, and whether the government does not consider that such cutbacks will destroy Canadian incentive for further exploration.
Questions
With leave, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Edmonton East:
That the subject matter of the President's statement on the marketing of oil in the United States be referred to the Standing Committee on National Resources and Public Works, and that the committee report thereon not later than March 20.


Mr. Speaker:: As the hon. member has suggested, this motion can be put to the House at the present time only if there is unanimous consent. I shall inquire whether there is such unanimous consent.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: I regret to advise the hon. member that there is not unanimous consent. The question cannot be put at this time.


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Who said no?



QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to withdraw the MV Lucy Maud Montgomery from the Borden-Tormentine ferry service and, if so, when and to where is this ship to be transferred?
2.	Have definite plans been made to assist in augmenting the Wood Islands-Caribou ferry service and, if so, what is the nature and extent to which the Government of Canada will be involved?
3.	Are the docking and terminal facilities at Wood Islands and Caribou at present capable of giving effective berthing to the Lucy Maud Montgomery and, if not, what is the nature, extent and cost of necessary changes?
4.	In the past three years, from what governments and organizations has the Government of Canada received representations concerning the Wood Islands-Caribou service?
5.	Have any provincial governments made the Government of Canada aware of their willingness to offer assistance in upgrading and extending this service and, if so, what is its nature and extent of such assistance?


Mr. Gerard Loiselle (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport):: 1. No plans at present to withdraw the Lucy Maud Montgomery from the Borden-Tormentine ferry service.
2.	Although the matter is being urgently examined no definite plans have yet been made.

March 11, 1970
Questions
3.	No. Dredging at both terminals will be required together with re-construction of a berth at Wood Islands. Approximate capital cost of these changes would be over $750,000 and there will be additional charges for maintenance dredging.
4.	The government of Nova Scotia, government of Prince Edward Island, R. M. Mac-Ewan, M.P. (Central Nova), H. A. Venoit, MLA, Nova Scotia, and various private individuals.
5.	The government of Nova Scotia has agreed to contribute a sum not exceeding $125,000 to the improvement of terminal facilities at Caribou, N.S.


RESEARCH, TREASURY BOARD
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Treasury Board and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: 1. If
research is defined to include the collection and analysis of information then the operating budget of the Treasury Board is largely directed to this purpose. If, on the other hand, research is defined narrowly to include the development of new knowledge (as distinct from information) then the Treasury Board does not engage in research.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 196869 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Comeau: 1. In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Na-
Year	Expenditure
1968-69	$12,000
1969-70	$10,000
tional Defence and what was the purpose of each research project?
2. How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. In 196869 the actual expenditure was $44,142,000; for 1969-70 the estimated expenditure is $47,399,000. The purposes of the research were to
(a)	carry out research and preliminary development in those scientific and technological fields that are relevant to Canadian defence and important to the international defence science community and perform tests and evaluations and modify equipment, components or procedures of the Canadian Forces on request, (b) carry out analytical and operational research studies, (c) provide liaison offices and a scientific information centre for the collection and dissemination of scientific information relating to national defence, (d) award grants-in-aid for approved work by university scientists and make contributions to establish or expand industrial research activities in defence technologies.
2. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have "actual" expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 196869 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Public Works and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1.
Project
An investigation of the strength mechanisms of highly sensitive clays to earthquake shock loadings.
An investigation of the strength mechanisms of highly sensitive clays to earthquake shock loadings.

March 11, 1970

2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for
1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of External Affairs and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. Project: Latin America. Fiscal year: 1968-69; Cost: $2,800. Purpose: To review the extent to which missions are able to investigate and report systematically on the basic social and economic problems of Latin America and on the steps being taken to resolve these problems.
Project: Peaceful settlement of International disputes. Fiscal year: 1968-69; Cost: $3,600. Purpose: To have useful information at hand in anticipation of discussions on this subject at the United Nations General Assembly.
Project: Trade between Canada and the Commonwealth Caribbean. Fiscal year: 196869; Cost: $30,802. Purpose: To comply with a joint agreement reached at the 1966 Commonwealth Caribbean/Canada Conference.
Project: Documents on Canadian External Relations. Fiscal year: 1968-69 and 1969-70; Cost: $9,460 and $13,617 respectively. Purpose: To edit and prepare State Papers for publication of successive volumes.
Project: Canada's External Relations 16001969. Fiscal year:	1969-70; Cost:	$3,000.
Purpose: To edit, prepare and compile a bibliography.
The above items relate to contract research and exclude research carried out normally within the department in the course of day-to-day operations.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.
Questions


Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of National Revenue and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1.
Unit	1968-69	1969-70	Total

Customs Laboratory 4,000	5,000	9,000
Purpose: Intra-mural research projects for the most part, generally involving research into analytical methods. The results obtained remain unpublished and are used to facilitate the examination of certain chemical commodities.
It may also be pointed out that National Revenue (Taxation and Customs and Excise) do certain analytical work and research and development in the administrative and operational fields. These activities include analysis of tax laws, computer studies and studies relating to organizational methods and procedures. It is not considered, however, that these come within the area of the research referred to in the question.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 196869 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research In the Department of Justice and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. Legal officers of the Department of Justice undertake research projects in connection with their regular duties and it is impossible to say with any degree of accuracy what sums have been expended for this particular purpose. For example, research is undertaken regularly in respect of government legislation

March 11, 1970
Questions
on constitutional matters, criminal law matters and various aspects of government-sponsored legislation. The department is currently-taking steps to establish a new section to undertake long-term research projects of a type not necessarily related to immediate problems.
2. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. In
1968-69, $4,304,412 was expended on research.
In 1969-70, $5,246,075 is estimated as expenditures on research. The purpose of these research projects are to provide information needed for on-going programs in the department. It is not possible to indicate the purpose of each project without a search of every project file. The cost to the government in manpower would be exorbitant.
2. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Agriculture and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. Estimated Expenditures
Expenditures provided through regular parliamentary votes
Cost of services provided by other departments


[Stage Direction]
Total estimated expenditures
[Stage Direction]
Research Projects
The Research Branch has approximately 1,400 research projects under five main categories. The principal objective is to increase efficiency and productivity of Canadian agriculture. Further details follow.
Soil Research-Soil genesis, classification, physical and chemical properties, fertility, surveys and mapping, including Canada Land Inventory operations.
Crop Research-Improvement and protection of cultivated plants.
Animal Research-Research on domestic and fur-bearing animals and poultry, including genetics and breeding, physiology, nutrition and management; research on animal products.
General Biology and Support Research- Taxonomy of plants and insects, food re-
search, bacteriology, virology, bio-chemistry, biological or chemical control of pests and pesticide degradation and residues.
Engineering Research-Research on the engineering aspects.
The Health of Animals Branch has approximately 84 research projects. The objectives of these projects are in general similar to those of the Research Branch but emphasizing the prevention, control or eradication of animal diseases and protection of the public against diseases of animals communicable to man. The Board of Grain Commissioners conduct basic and applied research on cereal quality. The Economics Branch conducts research studies on the economics of production, marketing, consumption, farm organization and management and other matters of economic or social significance in
March 11, 1970
[Stage Direction]
Canadian agriculture. (Detailed list of current projects was tabled in answer to Question 37). The Research Branch, Health of Animals Branch and Board of Grain Commissioners projects are essentially continuous in nature.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. The
estimated sums spent by the Office of the Director of Investigation and Research on general or research inquiries conducted under Section 42 of the Combines Investigation Act and other research projects were as follows:
1968-1969 (April 1-November 30) $116,070	$81,095
The research projects being undertaken during the above periods and their purpose were as follows:
(1)	Mergers in Canadian Industry in the Post-war Period-designed to assist the government in formulating any future policy with respect to mergers.
(2)	Study of Concentration in Canadian Manufacturing Industries-this is an important aspect of the structure of the economy and one having a bearing on competition policy.
(3)	Bid Depositories in the Construction Industry-undertaken in view of the national importance of pricing procedures in the industry.
(4)	Research on a continuing basis into problems of structure and behaviour of industry to keep the Director informed of the state of competition in various sectors of the economy.
(5)	Research in connection with Canada's contribution to studies conducted by the OECD, including restrictive business practices
Questions
in international trade, access to patents and trademarks, obstacles to the international transfer of technology and the restrictive aspects of the multinational corporation. The estimated expenditures of the Consumer Research Branch of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs were $53,000 in 1968-69 and $98,000 from April 1, 1969 to the end of December. Research papers were prepared in the Consumer Research Branch for federal-provincial discussions on consumer affairs, for the OECD, for the Special Senate Committee on Poverty, and for the Interdepartmental Committee on Consumer Affairs. Continuing research is carried out on various subjects of concern to the department.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have "actual" expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 196869 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.


Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Post Office Department and the Department of Communications and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?


Yves Forest: 1. Post Office Department:
Thousands of dollars
(a) 1968-69	$ 284.9
1969-70	$ 660.5
(b)	To improve the design of static postal equipment and to develop and improve the mechanized mail handling and processing equipments.
(a)	The Department of Communications exists only since April 1, 1969. There is therefore no data for that department in 1968-69.
(b)	The 1969-70 budget estimates for Communications and Space Research are $9,500,000 including $2,400,000 for a satellite construction contract in industry, (c) The research of the Department is divided into 3 parts, the aims of each of these being specified as follows:
Communications Research:
To sponsor, to conduct and to monitor research in all relevant areas of communications technology in order to meet the mission

March 11. 1370
Questions
objectives of the Department with special information on actual expenditures for 1968-69 emphasis on communications to Northern and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the Canada.	natural and engineering sciences is in process.
Satellite Technology:
To maintain a competence in those areas of Satellite technology of importance to Canada. To perform research and to develop technology relevant to Canada's present and future needs. To direct and manage satellite development programs performed by industrial contract.
Research Supporting Radio Spectrum Management:
To perform research on radio propagation which is peculiar to the Canadian environment for both civil and military applications. To improve radio prediction and forecasting services to Canadian users.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have "actual" expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting information on actual expenditures for 196869 and estimates for 1969-70 on research in the natural and engineering sciences is in process.



RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES

['What is the total paid out under the Agriculture Lime Assistance program, for lime used by farmers in the Province of Prince Edward Island, for each fiscal year 1965-1966 to 1969-1970 inclusive?\nHon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture:\nNil.']
Yves Forest: 1. None.
2.	The Dominion Bureau of Statistics does not have Actual expenditures on research for 1968-69 and 1969-70. A survey requesting
*6.
English Production French Production Technical Services Distribution Administration
* Staff changes resulting from the Saumier report will not be determined in final form until studies recommended by the report have been conducted. As reported by the Govern-IMr. Forest.]



Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Has the current year's budget of the National Film Board been frozen at the same level as last year's budget?
2.	Did the National Film Board tell its employees that pay increases negotiated would he absorbed in the coming year as they had been in the past?
3.	Did the Treasury Board inform the National Film Board that last year's deficit would have to be absorbed in the current budget?
4.	Has production of new films by the National Film Board, except for sponsored films, been suspended and, if so, since what date?
5.	How many employees of the National Film Board is it expected will leave by the summer of 1970 by retirement, resignation or lay-off?
6.	Of those leaving, how many will leave from each of the following Branches-English production, French production, technical services, distribution and administration?
7.	Have the proposed cut-backs and lay-offs been discussed in detail and agreed to by the Union representing the employees?


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: I am informed by the National Film Board as follows: 1. The parliamentary appropriation has been frozen at last year's level.
2.	No.
3.	The National Film Board did not incur a deficit last year.
4.	Production of films on NFB program was suspended for two months but has since been resumed.
*5. Approximately 97 employees will leave and not be replaced between January 1970 and the summer of 1970.
	Resignations	
	and retirements	
Lay-Offs	not replaced	Total18	9	274	2	612	6	1818	12	3011	5	1663	34	97ment Film	Commissioner in his	report toParliament dated January 22, 1970,	seventeenmembers of	English Production,	previouslyslated for lay-off, will be retained on staff.	
March 11, 1970

Questions
7. They have been discussed in detail with 3. No. I am informed by the Canadian the three associations representing the em- Broadcasting Corporation that the only pos-ployees and have not been agreed to, the asso- sible CBC connection with this event is its ciations objecting to a reduction in their news value and this has not yet been assessed, membership by a process of lay-off.	4. No.


RECEIPTS FROM AND PAYMENTS TO INDIANS
Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	In the past fiscal year, what was the total amount of money received by the Government of Canada from Canadian Indians?
2.	In the past fiscal year, what was the total amount of money paid out by the Government of Canada to Indian Canadians and what were the major categories of payment and the amount paid in each category?


Mr. Russell C. Honey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1. It is not possible to separate payments from Indians from payments from non-Indians since the method of recording all revenues received by Canada does not allow such differentiation.
2. The amount of money paid in 1968-69 by the Government of Canada directly and indirectly to Canadian Indians is $141,853,995. The major categories are-(a) Economic Development and Social Programs, totalling, $66,345,358. (b) Education, totalling $68,981,075. (c) Administration, totalling $6,527,562.


&quot;PEACE FESTIVAL&quot;-MOSPORT, ONTARIO
Mr. Nesbitt: 1.	Is any department of the government supplying funds to assist the "Peace Festival" sponsored by Mr. and Mrs. John Lennon, to be held at Mosport, Ontario on July 3 and 4, 1970 and, if so, how much?
2.	Are any government agencies, Crown corporations or any other emanations of the federal government such as the CBC providing funds for the above-mentioned "Peace Festival" and, if so, how much?
3.	Are any departments of government, agencies of the government, Crown corporations or other emanations of the government such as the CBC providing assistance to the above-mentioned "Peace Festival" in non-monetary forms of assistance and, if so, in what way?
4.	Are any forms of assistance, as set out above, being provided for a similar "Peace Festival" to be held under the auspices of the Government of the Province of Manitoba during the summer of 1970?


Gérard Pelletier: 1. No.
2. No.


CNR-REDUCTION IN PASSENGER TRAIN SERVICE
Mr. Corbin: 1.	Was the Canadian National Railway decision to reduce its passenger train service and change the nature of the service offered made at the local, regional or national level?
2.	Were the people of the areas concerned consulted before the decision was reached?
3.	In the case of the discontinuance of the Ocean Limited passenger train on the Moncton-Edmund-ston-Joffre line, did the Canadian National Railway consult with the citizens of the areas concerned before making their decision?
4.	If not, for what reason?
5.	Does the Canadian National Railway intend to consult the citizens of the areas concerned before making such decisions?


Gérard Loiselle: The management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows: 1. Changes in passenger service effective January 7, 1970 were carried out on a system basis following consultations with regional and area administrators.
2, 3 and 4. For many years, when changes in passenger train service are contemplated, it has been the practice to make public announcements of such proposed changes 20 days prior to implementation in accordance with the regulations of the Board of Transport Commissioners and its successor, the Canadian Transport Commission. In the recent changes, 60 days' notice was given in order to allow for any consultation or discussion which the communities concerned might desire. While newspaper accounts from the area served by the Ocean Limited between Moncton-Edmundston-Joffre did indicate local concern and objection, no requests were received for consultation or direct discussion respecting the change. Such discussions would have been held if requested.
5.	The Company's policy respecting changes in passenger train service is to announce such changes substantially in advance of their effective date so that discussions in any municipality affected could be conducted during that period of notice as required or requested.

March IX, 1970
Questions


PUBLIC SERVICE LAY-OFFS
Mr. Skoreyko: 1.	What was the total cost of lay-offs in the Civil Service from January 1, 1969 to January 1, 1970 in (a) British Columbia (b) the Prairies (c) Ontario (d) Quebec (e) the Maritimes?
Number of lay-offs
Region
(a)	British Columbia	84(b)	The Prairies	89(c)	Ontario	*239(d)	Quebec	23(e)	The Maritimes	85
*Included in this number are 70 employees laid off when the Canadian Forces Base at Picton, Ontario, was closed. Other reductions in National Defence caused lay-offs at Kingston (3), Ottawa (32) and Trenton (19).


CBC-ACTRA DUES AND FEES
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 953.-Mr. Orlikow:
1.	In each of the past five years, what has been the total amount of deductions from CBC payroll to cover ACTRA dues and fees?
2.	For each of these years, how many individual members of ACTRA had dues or fees deducted?
Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1 and 2. The CBC does not deduct membership dues or fees for ACTRA members. Over the past five years CBC has paid the following amounts to ACTRA members.
	Total	Estimated
	payments	No. of ACTRA
Fiscal year	in $000's	members1964-65	$3,943	4,6321965-66	3,889	5,0341966-67	4,995	4,9331967-68	6,244	4,5311968-69	6,225	5,719
The above statistics apply to the jurisdiction of the ACTRA agreements, but do not include fees paid indirectly to ACTRA members by the Corporation through commissioned productions, i.e. programs purchased from outside firms which might employ ACTRA members.


P.E.I.-FISHING HARBOURS
Mr. McQuaid: 1. Which fishing harbours in Prince Edward Island will be continued to be maintained by the federal government?
[Mr. Loiselle.l
2.	In each category listed, what percentage of these public Servants were English speaking and what percentage were French speaking?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Public Service Commission as follows:
English speaking	French spea)
%	%
100	-
93.3	6.7
86.5	13.5
17.5	82.5
89.5	10.5
2.	Will any financial assistance be granted to the Province by the federal government towards the maintenance of harbours other than those mentioned in answer to Part 1?
3.	Have representations been made by the Government of Prince Edward Island to the Government of Canada for financial assistance in the maintenance of harbours other than those mentioned in answer to Part 1?


Yves Forest: 1, 2 and 3. The future of fishing harbours, their maintenance and improvement, is now under study by federal and provincial officials.
DIRECT MORTGAGE LOANS Question No. 988


Mr. Goode:: Does the government, through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, plan to institute a programme of direct mortgage loans to offset the recent downward trend in housing starts in Canada?


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the government's very substantial housing programs for the year 1970 were outlined by the minister responsible for housing on February 2, 1970, when the capital budget of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation was tabled. I would refer the hon. member to Hansard of that date, pages 3061 and 3062.


AIRPORT NOISE ABATEMENT REGULATIONS
Mr. Goode: 1.	Are there, at present, any Department of Transport regulations regarding noise abatement at airports in Canada and, if so, what are they and at which airports do they apply?
2.	Has the Department of Transport undertaken, or does the Department have plans to initiate, any studies on the problem of noise pollution created by aircraft arrivals, departures and stationary warm-ups at airports in Canada?
3.	If such studies have been carried out, what were the findings and how were these findings acted upon?
March 11, 1970

4.	If such studies are planned, when will they begin and what will be the scope of these studies?


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, as the answer here is quite long, I would beg leave from the House to have it recorded in Hansard and considered as read.


Mr. Speaker:: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: The reply follows:]
1.	There is one section of the Air Regulations which deals with aircraft noise abatement. Section 516 (bb) of the Air Regulations states; "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall conform with any directions made by the Minister relating to noise abatement".
Special procedures for noise abatement are published for the international airports at Winnipeg, Toronto Ottawa, and Montreal. While the same basic concept is employed at all of these airports, the specific procedures vary to suit local needs.
The three basic concepts upon which aircraft noise abatement procedures are predicated are: preferential runways for arriving and departing aircraft, departure-climb and arrival-descent procedures, and curfew.
An ideal preferential runway permits aircraft to operate to and from an airport with a minimum of restrictions while disturbing the last number of people. Departure procedures, which are most important when a preferential runway is not available, are tailored to suit local conditions. To provide optimum relief for noise sensitive areas adjacent to airports aircraft may, consistent with safety, be asked to: attain a certain altitude as soon as practicable after take-off, initiate a turn away from certain residential developments, climb at reduced power and rate of climb while overflying certain areas near the runway, or, operate without any restrictions whatsoever.
On the other hand, arrival procedures are less flexible: depending upon weather conditions, aircraft are to be aligned with the runway not less than 6 miles from the runway threshold, and maintain an altitude of 2000 feet above ground for as long as practicable before commencing final descent for landing.
Curfew is employed at two airports: Montreal and Toronto, between the hours of
Questions
midnight and 7:00 a.m. This restriction is applicable only to turbo-jet aircraft.
2.	Special studies related to aircraft noise have been carried out on behalf of the Department by National Research Council as far back as 1959 and 1960 at Montreal and Ottawa International Airports, and then again at Montreal in 1965. A study is currently underway at Toronto.
3.	The results of the Ottawa and Montreal studies were compiled as reports which served as a basis for aircraft noise abatement procedures in the early 1960's. The 1965 report on Montreal resulted in the installation of a central noise monitoring system for that airport, which in turn prompted a similar study for Toronto. An automatic monitoring system for Toronto is expected to be completed by summer this year.
At present, no new studies are planned. [English]


CBC TIME ALLOTMENT TO QUEBEC POLITICAL CONVENTIONS
Mr. Caoueile: 1.	How much time did the French and English networks of CBC (Radio and TV) devote to news reports and commentaries on (a) the Union Na-tionale convention held in June 1969 (b) the Parti Quebecois convention held in October 1969 (c) the Quebec Liberal Party convention held in January 1970 (d) the Ralliement Creditiste convention held in January 1970?
2.	How many employees of each network were involved in the transmission of each convention?
3.	What was the cost of the programmes relating to each convention?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. (a) French TV network, 6 hours; French Radio network, 5 hours; English TV (local or on limited network), 4 hours; English Radio (local or on limited network), 5 hours.
(b)	There was no live coverage from the floor of the convention. The CBC decided that, since this was not a leadership contest, adequate coverage could be given in the course of regular news and public affairs programs.
(c)	French TV network, 7 hours; French Radio network, 7 hours; English TV (local or on limited network), 7 hours; English Radio (local or on limited network), 4 hours.
(d)	See (b) above.
2.	Some 100 employees in all, including technical personnel, for radio and TV networks combined.
3.	Approximately $51,000 and $77,000 for the Union Nationale and Liberal conventions respectively.
Questions

March 11, 1970

CBC ADVERTISEMENTS IN "QUEBEC-PRESSE" and "LA PRESSE"


Mr. Porlelance: 1.	Did the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation advertise in the Quebec-Presse during the months of December 1969 and January 1970 and, if so, on what dates and at what cost each time?
2.	When Quebec-Presse sold this advertisement to CBC, what circulation figure did Quebec-Presse quote and what were its rates?
3.	Did the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation advertise in La Presse during the months of December 1969 and January 1970 and, if so, on what dates and at what cost each time?
4.	When La Presse sold this advertisement to CBC, what circulation figure did La Presse quote and what were its rates?
5.	Which section of CBC requested this advertisement in Quebec-Presse and who is in charge of the section?
6.	How much did CBC pay for the advertisement which appeared on page 16A of Quebec-Presse on January 25, 1970?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. Yes. There were 14 advertisements in all on various dates during December and January. There were no cash expenditures in this regard since the ads were placed on a contra-account basis whereby comparable value in broadcast time is exchanged for space in the publication.
2.	Paid circulation of 92,000 and a rate of 700 per agate line according to the contra-account contract.
3.	Yes. There were 28 advertisements in all on various dates during December and January for an average cost of about $350. each.
4.	Circulation was not mentioned since detailed figures from the Audit Bureau of Circulation are published regularly in Canadian Advertising Rates and Data. Rate: $1.10 per agate line.
5.	The advertisements were ordered by the heads of the radio and TV publicity departments.
6.	Nil. See reply to part 1 above.


HOCKEY NIGHT IN CANADA SPONSORS
Mr. McCleave: 1.	Who are the national and local sponsors of Hockey Night in Canada as shown on CBC TV?
2.	What amount does each sponsor pay and for how much time in each instance?
3.	Do any of these sponsors have control over material shown during the non-advertising portions

of Hockey Night telecasts and, if so, what suggestions or orders have they made which have been adopted?
4.	Are any representatives of advertisers or advertising agencies dealing with Hockey Night in Canada physically present in the broadcasting gondola, near the TV cameras, or close enough to communicate with producers, directors, switchers, cameramen and other TV staff during such telecasts and, if so, what type of orders or suggestions, if any, are they permitted to give?


Gérard Pelletier: 1	am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. National sponsors are Imperial Oil, Ford and Molson's; there are no local sponsors.
2.	Rights are held by the advertising agency and the amount paid by sponsors is a matter between the agency and the sponsors. The CBC recovers its costs, i.e. production charges, station time and interconnection charges, in full.
3.	No.
4.	Advertising representatives are present as observers and can communicate with the CBC producer and game officials, which they do for purposes of co-ordinating the insertion of commercial messages into the program. However, they do not give suggestions or orders to CBC personnel with respect to CBC coverage of the game.


DISTRIBUTION OF NFB AUDIO-VISUAL MATERIALS
Mr. Nowlan: 1.	Has the National Film Board recently decided to distribute audio-visual materials through private agencies and, if so, what criteria were established for proposed distributors?
2.	Who are the partners of Visual Education Centre, one of the successful bidders?
3.	Were any of the partners mentioned in Part
2	formerly employees of the National Film Board and, if so, at what time and in what positions?
4.	Was any public invitation made to bid on the distribution contracts and, if so, (a) by what date were presentations required to be filed (b) when was a decision made?
5.	In the case of the successful bidder, Visual Education Centre (a) how many experienced rep-esentatives are now available to sell and distribute material (b) what is the minimum annual sales requirement under the contract and what is the penalty for default (c) what is the value of the minimum inventory they must commit to the project (d) is all the capital of the company Canadian (e) are all the partners Canadian?
6.	What level of increase in distribution of audiovisual equipment does the National Film Board require, as a result of contracting their distribution?
March 11. 1970


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the National Film Board as follows: 1. Yes. Slides, filmstrips, multimedia kits, overhead projectuals and 8mm silent film loops will be distributed through private agencies. The following criteria were applied for proposed distributors: reputation, distribution of products non-competitive to the National Film Board, enthusiasm, physical proximity to the market, specialization in audio-visual software, financial resources to handle present National Film Board sales volume, Canadian financial control, marketing techniques, and a commitment in writing to a satisfactory marketing plan.
2.	Messrs. Don Wilder, Grant McLean and Gordon Burwash.
3.	Yes. Mr. Wilder, 1944-1958, cinematographer; Mr. McLean, 1945-1967, film maker in many capacities; executive, 1966-1967, Acting Government Film Commissioner; Mr. Burwash, 1950-1954 and 1960-1967, Writer, Actor, Producer.
4.	Public invitation to bid was not requested. National Film Board personnel in offices across Canada were asked to approach and/or submit names of companies which were worthy of consideration. 35 distributors in Ontario were considered, (a) there was no date when representations were required to be filed, (b) the decision to appoint Visual Education Centre was made on December 17, 1969.
5.	(a) Visual Education Centre has presently four experienced representatives for sales and distribution. Cb) The minimum annual sales volume required by the contract is the estimated gross value of National Film Board audio-visual sales in Ontario projected for the current fiscal year 1969-1970. This is based on sale to date and current market trends. The penalty for default clause in the contract reads as follows: "If the Distributor violates or defaults in the performance of any undertaking or obligation under this Agreement, the Board may, by notice in writing, specify clearly to the Distributor the nature of the violation or default and, if before the expiry of thirty days after the giving of notice, the Distributor does not, to the satisfaction of the Board, rectify the violation or default and give assurance of its intention to comply with this Agreement, the Board may, by notice in writing, terminate the rights of the Distributor under this Agreement with effect from such date as the Board specifies in this notice." (c) Minimum inven-
Questions
tory required by contract is a 90 day supply of stock, (d) The contract states that while it is in effect, the absolute majority of the issued share capital of the distributor shall be held by Canadian citizens living in Canada, (e) The partners are all Canadian citizens.
6.	The National Film Board requires an expansion of marketing techniques which the distributor has undertaken to provide, and the distributor has agreed in the contract to secure and increase the National Film Board's present volume of sales.


SECRETARY OF STATE DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Mather: What was the number of employees in the Secretary of State's Office and Department in 1960, 1965 and 1969?


Gérard Pelletier: Number of employees as of March 31:
1960	1965	1969Secretary of State's Office 12	13	10Departmental Strength 743	875	880


POLLUTION-INSTALLATION OF REDUCED SMOKE COMBUSTERS ON JET AIRCRAFT
Mr. Anderson: Has the Department of Transport, Department of Health and Welfare or any other government agency held discussions with Canadian airlines on the advisability of installing reduced smoke combusters on jet aircraft to reduce air pollution and, if so, has a target date been established for the installation of reduced smoke combusters on Canadian jet aircraft?


Gérard Loiselle: Discussions have taken place with the airlines concerning the JT8D engine which is considered to be the main cause of air pollution by aircraft. Manufacturers' production schedules will permit the airlines to equip their aircraft with modified engines which, greatly reduce the pollution factor by 1972.


PRISON INMATES RELEASED ON PAROLE
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many men were released on parole from federal prisons in each year from 1960 to 1969 inclusive?
2.	How many men, in each year from 1960 to 1969 inclusive, violated conditions of their parole and were returned to prison?

March 11. 1970
Questions
3.	What types of offences were committed by the paroled men who were returned to prison?
4.	What was the cost, for each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive, of supervising every man out on parole?
5.	What was the cost, in each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive, of keeping one man in one of the federal prisons?


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (Solicitor General):: 1.	1960, 1,192; 1961, 1,005; 1962, 885; 1963, 663; 1964, 751; 1965, 1,127; 1966, 1,114; 1967, 1,328; 1968, 1,493; 1969, 1,870.
2.	1960, 116; 1961, 174; 1962, 170; 1963, 190; 1964, 153; 1965, 222; 1966, 219; 1967, 270; 1968, 224; 1969, 378.
3.	Offences range from violations of terms and conditions of parole to indictable offences punishable on conviction by sentences of two years and more.
4.	1960-61, not available; 1962, $562; 1963, $630; 1964, $650; 1965, $604; 1966, $783; 1967, $757; 1968, $802; 1969, $851.
5.	1959-60, $2,384; 1960-61, $2,293; 1961-62, $2,424; 1962-63, $2,753; 1963-64, $2,743; 196465, $3,074; 1965-66, $3,430; 1966-67, $4,900; 1967-68, $5,315; 1968-69, $6,654.


JUVENILE OFFENDERS INCARCERATED IN PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many juvenile offenders are now in federal penitentiaries?
2.	In how many cases did the court have presentence recommendations from social workers, probation officers, psychiatrists, etc.?
3.	What facilities, if any, are there for segregation of these juveniles from the adult inmates?


George James McIlraith: 1.
One as defined under Section 21 of the Penitentiary Act.
2.	One (for above offender).
3.	This offender is confined in accordance with the provisions of Section 21(1) of the Penitentiary Act, that is, in an area within the Federal Training Centre, Quebec set aside for inmates under the age of 21 years.


PENITENTIARY INMATES-NUMBER OF INDIANS
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many persons were serving penitentiary sentences in each penitentiary in Canada during each year from 1960 to 1969 inclusive?
2.	Of those persons serving penitentiary sentences, how many were (a) Indians within the meaning of the Indian Act (b) of Indian ancestry, in each penitentiary during each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive?


George James McIlraith: 1.
Numbers are listed in Annex A.
2. A separate record of persons of Indian ancestry has not been maintained; certain persons claiming Indian ancestry being unaware whether or not they are registered within the meaning of the Indian Act while others, referring to themselves as Canadians, have been so recorded on the admission records of the institution.

March 11, 1970

Questions
Annex A
Canadian Penitentiary Service Inmate Population Statistics
As of March 31-	1960	1961	1962	1963	1964	1965	1966	1967	1968	1969
Newfoundland	 25
Dorchester Penitentiary	 662
Springhill Institution	 -
St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary	 1,635
Federal Training Centre	 431
Leclerc Institution	
Archambault Institution. Cowansville Institution... Special Correctional Unit. St. Hubert Centre	
Kingston Penitentiary	 989
Prison for Women	 124
Collins Bay Penitentiary	 456
Joyceville Institution	 217
Warkworth Institution	 -
Manitoba Penitentiary	 417
Osborne Centre	 -
Saskatchewan Penitentiary	 640
Drumheller Institution	 -
British Columbia Penitentiary	 748
William Head Institution	 -
Matsqui Institution (Male)	 -
Matsqui Institution (Female)	 -
34	46	41	30	26	41	15	15	19713	750	720	795	748	713	730	501	457-	-	-*	-*	-	-	-	175	189,453	1,304	1,037	1,153	1,170	1,167	1,085	981	1,020407	458	405	420	419	411	288	300	289304	374	549	586	623	635	549	509	453-*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	28-	-	-	-	-	-	154	164	211-	-	-	-	-	-	-	27	62-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	16939	981	877	865	861	896	853	756	696124	126	111	121	114	118	81	74	74453	591	665	678	664	642	648	620	649397	440	501	548	498	526	520	510	514-	-	-	-	-	92	143427	505	531	589	574	572	487	475	545-	-	-	-	-	-	-	15732	778	803	789	804	776	702	660	672-	-	-	-	-	-	-	88	141755	803	979	1,081	1,017	852	520	547	499-	-	-	-	-	-	137	136	123-	-	-	-	-	62	384	391	400-	-	-	-	-	-	32	36	38
Notes:
1.	Prior to 1967 figures for William Head Institution were included in those for British Columbia Penitentiary
2.	Correctional camp and farm annex figures are included in those of the parent institution.


PAROLE OFFICERS
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many parole officers are employed by the Department of Justice and what is their jurisdiction?
2.	How many of these are trained social workers?
3.	How many are university graduates in the social sciences?
4.	Does the Department make provision for bursaries for the training of more parole officers and, if so, how many bursaries and in what amount?


George James McIlraith: 1.	129 by the Department of the Solicitor General. Their jurisdiction is subject to the direction of the Chairman of the National Parole Board who is also its chief executive officer.
2.	Thirty-two.
3.	Sixty-eight.
4.	Yes, ten bursaries in an amount of up to $2,500 each.


INMATES AND STAFF, FEDERAL PENITENTIARIES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	What is the total number of inmates in federal penitentiaries as of the last date for which the annual report was prepared?
2.	What is the total staff employed in these penitentiaries and, of these, how many are guards, teachers, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.?
3.	What qualifications are required for the professional staff?
4.	What are the minimum qualifications for guards employed in penitentiaries?
5.	Is there a compulsory training course for people hired as guards and, if so (a) what type of course (b) how long does it take to complete this course?
Hen. G. J. Mcllraiih (Solicilor General):
1.	7,160 as of March 31, 1969.
2.	4,610 as of February 13, 1970. The breakdown by classification is given at Annex "A".
3.	Qualifications for professional staff are: (a) Physicians: medical degree and licence issued by a Provincial Medical Association for practice in that province (possession of licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada entitles holder to be licensed in any province in Canada); or possession of equivalent qualifications.
(b) Psychiatrists: As for physicians, but requires also certification as a psychiatrist by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada; or possession of equivalent qualifications.

March 11, 1970
Questions
(c)	Dentists: Degree in dentistry and licensed by Provincial Dental Association.
(d)	Psychologists: Master's degree or doctorate in psychology.
(e)	Classification Officers Level 2: B.A. degree. Level 3: M.A. or B.A. degree, three years' experience and written examination. Level 4: M.A. degree and five years' experience or Ph.D. less thesis. Level 5: M.A. degree and eight years' experience or Ph.D. degree.
(f)	Arts & Craft: Diploma or degree.
(g)	Social Worker: Degree in social work.
4.	Minimum qualifications for a correctional officer are: Grade 10; age 21-40 years (if applicant has overseas service in the Armed Forces the 40 year limit does not apply); height 5 feet 6 inches; weight commensurate to height; medically fit.
5.	Yes. (a) Induction Training Course; (b) This course is divided into two phases: Phase 1 conducted at a Correctional Staff College- duration six weeks. Phase 2 consisting of "on the job" training, duration normally six weeks but can be extended according to the need.
Annex "A"
Canadian Penitentiary Service Breakdown of Staff
Correctional Staff	2,029
Psychologists	23*
Psychiatrists	23*
Physicians	20*
Dentists	14*
Chaplains	44
Teachers	65
Classification and Guidance Officers	120
Visits and Correspondence Officers	57
Administrative (Wardens, Assistant Warden, Deputy Wardens, ARD's, Superintendents, Supervisors of Industries and Vocational Training,
FI's, Administration and Supply Officers	230
Administrative Support	494
Trades Instructors	503
Heating and Power Plant Staff	194
Hospital Support (Hospital Officers,
X-Ray Technicians, Dental Technicians)	159
Stores Staff	94
Farm Staff (Farm Managers, Assistant Farm Managers, Farm Assistants, Gardeners)	80
Stewards	153
Miscellaneous (Drivers, Forestry Officers, CRC Counsellors, Supervisor, Housekeeping Services, Staff Instructors, SIS and related staff Works Officers, Recreation Officers,
Training Aid	Technicians,	etc.)	242
Casuals	66
TOTAL	4,610
*Figures include those on part-time and under contract.


PENITENTIARIES-MALE RECIDIVIST RATE
Mr. Orlikow: What was the recidivist rate of males admitted, to each Canadian penitentiary in the years 1967, 1968 and 1969?

March 11. 1970

Questions


George James McIlraith: Admitting	Admitted on Warrant Number having served
Institution	Year	of CommitmentDorchester	1967	3751968	3391969	398St. Vincent	1967	864de Paul	1968	9661969	962Kingston	1967	7991968	9651969	1044Manitoba	1967	2311968	2701969	308Saskatchewan	1967	4341968	4991969	496British	Columbia	1967	4911968	4371969	579Total	1967	31941968	34761969	3787Total 1967-69	10,457previous sentences in penitentiary	Percentage150	40.161	47.5186	46.7310	35.9331	34.3378	39.3378	47.3432	44.8328	31.5107	46.3102	37.8120	39.176	40.6238	48.5181	36.5238	48.5198	45.3279	48.21359	42.51462	42.11472	38.94293	41.1


PUBLIC SERVICE SUPERANNUATION ACT
Mr. McCleave: 1.	To what groups has the Treasury Board Secretariat submitted an outline of proposals arising from the statement of the President of the Treasury Board to the House of Commons on December 19, 1969?
2.	Did any groups disagree with the proposals and, if so, which groups and to which proposals?


Hon. C. M. Drury (President of the Treasury Board):: 1. The proposals were considered and recommended by the Advisory Committee on the Public Service Superannuation Act which contains representatives of the bargaining agents in the Public Service. Subsequently, the proposals were discussed with representatives of each of the bargaining agents who are certified representatives of public service employees: The Public Service Alliance of Canada; The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada; The Council of Postal Unions; The Canadian Postmasters Association; The Association of Postal Officials of Canada; The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers; The Canadian
Merchant Service Guild; The Canadian Air Traffic Control Association; The Council of Graphic Arts Unions; The Professional Association of Foreign Service Officers; The Dockyards Trades and Labour Council.
2. No.


NATIONAL FILM BOARD LAY-OFFS
Mr. Souiham: 1.	Is it part of the government's austerity program to lay off production employees from the National Film Board?
2.	How many of those being dismissed are English speaking?
3.	How many of those being dismissed are French speaking?
4.	How many of those being dismissed are bilingual?
5.	What is the total number of employees being dismissed from NFB?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the National Film Board as follows: 1. Yes. Budget limitations oblige the

March 11, 1970
Questions
National Film Board to lay off production employees.
2.	Thirty-one.
3.	Thirty-two.
4.	Thirty-two.
5.	Sixty-three.


SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, KINGSTON PRISON FOR WOMEN
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	When is solitary confinement used at the Prison for Women in Kingston?
2.	In the past three years, how many of the inmates have been given solitary confinement and of those, how many have been in solitary confinement (a) once (b) twice (c) three times (d) more than three times?
3.	How long can inmates he held in solitary confinement?
4.	Is there a limit on the number of days in a month or a year that an inmate can be held in solitary confinement?
5.	What are the physical facilities in solitary?
6.	Under what circumstances is the mattress removed?
7.	In how many cases have mattresses been removed from the cells of inmates in solitary confinement, and what are the facilities for sleeping when the mattresses are removed?
8.	What is the menu in solitary confinement?
9.	Under what circumstances is the menu changed in solitary confinement?
10.	What provision is made for supervision of those in solitary confinement?


George James McIlraith: 1.
The Prison for Women at Kingston does not have solitary confinement accommodation as such, however, one range has been subdivided to provide a segregation area for purposes of protective custody and for the maintenance of good order and discipline in the institution.
2.	73; (a) 51, (b) 18, (c) 2, and (d) 2.
3.	Dissociation as a punishment is governed by Section 2.28 of Penitentiary Service Regulations and may be ordered for a period not to exceed thirty days. Dissociation for reasons other than as a punishment is governed by Section 2.30 of Penitentiary Service Regulations.
4.	As for 3.
5.	Physical facilities in dissociation are the same as those in normal association.
6.	Mattresses are removed only in cases of wilful damage.
7.	No record; however, mattresses removed as set in answer to 6 above are returned for sleeping at night.

8.	Unless specifically stipulated, the menu for inmates in dissociation is the same as for inmates in normal association.
9.	On the advice of the medical officer.
10.	Inmates in dissociation are visited by two correctional officers at least once an hour on a 24-hour basis, and daily visits are made by the senior duty officer, a classification officer, the institutional chaplain, others as required, and psychiatric consultation is available.


RICHMOND CONSTITUENCY-CROWN CORPORATION OFFICES
Mr. Beaudoin: Do any Crown corporations or agencies have head offices located in the constituency of Richmond and, if so (a) which ones (b) how many employees did each of them have in the past fiscal year?


Yves Forest: No.


FEDERAL ASSISTANCE TO AGINCOURT PRODUCTIONS
Mr. Beaudoin: Has the federal government granted any subsidy to Agincourt Productions during the past three fiscal years and, if so (a) how many, in what amount, and for what reason (b) what criteria are applied in the granting of subsidies to producers of films and plays?
[Translation],


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Film Development Corporation as follows: No subsidy has been granted to Agincourt Productions during the past three years. However, the Canadian Film Development Corporation under Section 10(l)(a) of its Act invested in the film "Flick" made by Agincourt Productions. (See also reply to Question 83, page 1947 of Hansard, December 15, 1969).


CBC COVERAGE OF FOUNDING CONVENTION, RALLIEMENT CREDITISTE DU QUEBEC
Mr. Beaudoin: 1.	How much time did CBC devote to coverage of the founding convention for Ralliement Creditiste du Quebec Party held in Quebec in mid-January
(a)	on the English radio and television stations
(b)	on the French radio and television stations?
2.	Which sessions of this convention did CBC broadcast live on television and radio, and how long did these broadcasts last?
March 11, 1970


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: 1. (a) 36 minutes and 45 seconds, (b) 2 hours and 6 minutes.
2. There was no live coverage from the floor of the convention. The CBC decided that, since this was not a leadership contest, adequate coverage could be given in the course of regular news and public affairs programs.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY EXPROPRIATIONS OF LAND, CAUGHNAWAGA RESERVE
Mr. Godin: Did the government recently issue a cheque for $776,389.56 to Chief Andrew Delisle of Caughnawaga Reserve in connection with St. Lawrence Seaway expropriations in 1955-56 and, if so (a) what was the amount and the rate of interest included in this sum (b) how many acres were involved (c) how much did the Indians of this Reserve receive for this expropriation?


Gérard Loiselle: The St.
Lawrence Seaway Authority advises as follows: Yes. (a) Interest $667,642.82. Rate 5 per cent, (b) 703.4707 acres, (c) $1,963,563.66, Damages of an indirect nature are presently under negotiation.


GEORGETOWN, ONTARIO-ROSSLAKE AERODROME
Mr. Hales: 1.	What criteria does the Department of Transport use to determine what is a settlement, insofar as interpreting Section 529 of the Air Regulations is concerned?
2.	Does the Department of Transport propose to prohibit light aircraft from operating from the Rosslake airstrip located near Georgetown, Ontario, because the general area over which aircraft must fly while taking-off or landing from this airstrip is considered to be a settled area?
3.	Does the Department of Transport propose to examine all airports and civil aerodromes in Canada to apply similar criteria to determine whether or not flying operations should be allowed to continue?


Gérard Loiselle: 1. Since the intent of the regulation is to afford protection to persons and property on the ground from hazards occasioned by low-flying aircraft any decision to invoke the provisions of Section 529 of the Air Regulations in a particular 21774-17
Questions
case would be taken where it could be shown that a hazard existed to any small community, village or group of houses in a thinly populated area by virtue of low-flying aircraft.
2.	Yes.
3.	(a) All airports in Canada are examined at regular intervals and meet the Department's Licensing standards, (b) Civil aerodromes will be examined in every case where a hazardous condition is reported to exist.


DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT-ADVERTISING IN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORTS
Mr. Skoberg: 1.	Did the Department of Transport authorize the placing of signs advertising liquor, cigarettes and automobiles, etc., in International Airports and, if so, when was the decision made?
2.	Was an opportunity provided whereby all concerned parties were made aware of the decision to allow advertising in International Airports under DOT supervision?
3.	Were any regulations specified as to the size and location of each sign and, if so, what were the specified requirements?
4.	What revenue is being realized at each of the International Airports from the following companies for advertising (a) cigarette companies (b) automobile companies (c) others?


Gérard Loiselle: 1. Yes. Tenders for the advertising concession were invited on July 4, 1968,
2.	Tenders were advertised nationally and copies of the tender notices were sent to 153 advertising companies.
3.	Tenders were invited in two stages (1) Concepts (2) Financial Offers. Six companies submitted their concepts for advertising in ten air terminal buildings. A briefing was held with the six companies who submitted concepts at which time their proposals were reviewed and they were advised with respect to size, location and types of advertising signs. At the conclusion of this briefing financial offers (Stage 2) were invited.
4.	Tenderers were asked to submit financial offers on the basis of a percentage of gross revenue earned with an annual guarantee. Gross revenue estimated by the tenderers was not broken down to show anticipated earnings by category of products advertised. A copy of the financial offer submitted by the successful tenderer showing estimated revenue per airport for each of the first five years, follows:

March 11, 1970
Questions
Financial Offer For Advertising Concession
Percentage offered	Percentage offered if sales exceed $600,000	Percentage offered if sales exceed $750,000	Minimum annual Guarantee offered
50	60	In any year, 60% of the total	$250,000
55	60	280,000
60	60	plus an additional	320,000
60	60	10% of the excess	360,000Fifth Year	
60	60	up to $1,000,000.	400,000
Concessionaire's Estimated Annual Gross For First Five Years
1st. Year 2nd. Year 3rd. Year 4th. Year 5th. Year
Vancouver	
Calgary	
Edmonton	
Winnipeg	
Toronto	
Ottawa	
Montreal	
Saint John, N.B
Halifax	
Gander	
$ 74,160	$ 84,060	$ 92,465	$101,710	$111,88534,800	36,960	40,655	44,720	49,19528,370	32,260	35,485	39,030	42,93551,250	59,655	65,620	72,185	79,400135,345	153,645	169,010	185,905	204,49533,360	38,160	41,975	46,175	50,790115,155	125,505	138,055	151,860	167,0458,865	10,595	11,655	12,820	14,10533,490	38,420	42,265	46,490	51,1359,840	10,500	11,550	12,705	13,975


PUBLIC SERVICE-PROMOTION OF UNILINGUAL EMPLOYEES
Mr. Coales: Have any members of the Public Service of Canada, who are unilingual, been passed over for promotion in favour of bilingual employees and, if so, in how many instances has this occurred?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Public Service Commission as follows: Promotions in the public service are governed by the terms of the Public Service Employment Act which provide that all appointments are to be in accordance with the merit principle, having regard for certain preferences set out in the Act. Persons are selected for appointment on the basis of their qualifications to carry out the duties of the positions to which they are appointed, and the phrase "passed over for promotion" does not have any precise meaning for the public service.


TENDERS FOR AIRPORT SURVEILLANCE RADAR SYSTEMS
Mr. Skoberg: Have public tenders been called for the contract to supply equipment on new airport terminal surveillance radar systems for Gander, Edmonton,
[Mr. Loiselle.l
Vancouver and the New International Airport (Ste Scholastique) and, if not, for what reason?


Gérard Loiselle: No. For equipment of this type, it is the departmental practice to invite tenders from representative lists of suppliers, as this is considered adequate coverage. This procedure is authorized by the Government Contracts Regulations. The tender call made in this instance has a closing date of April 14, 1970.


PUBLIC WORKS-ACCOMMODATION FOR DEPUTY MINISTER
Mr. Coates: 1.	Is the Deputy Minister of Public Works moving from his present quarters to new quarters and, if so, on what date and for what reason?
2.	Where will the new quarters be located and what will be the cost to the taxpayer of the move in question?
Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Public
Works): 1. Yes, by the end of March, 1970. The move is one of several required by a reallocation of functions and the regrouping of several executives and directors of the Department.
2. In the Sir Charles Tupper Building; the several elements of cost are not known because they are part of a contract affecting other areas of the building.
March 11, 1970


NATIONAL FILM BOARD-PROTEST OF NEW FILM RENTAL POLICY
Mr. Mather: Has the Secretary of State received representations from groups, including the Vancouver YWCA, protesting the new film rental policy established by the National Film Board and, if so, what consideration is being given to such representations?


Gérard Pelletier: Yes. The film rental charges have since been cancelled.
[English1


RCMP-MARINE SERVICE BRANCH
Mr. Muir (Cape Breion-The Sydneys): 1.	Has the Marine Services Branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police been eliminated and, if so, for what reason?
2.	(a) How many men will be affected and will they be offered other positions within the Force at the same rank and salary (b) will there be any reduction or change in their pension benefits?


George James McIlraith: 1. No; however, the marine services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are being reorganized on a geographical basis to promote efficiency and economy of operation, and they will report through the RCMP divisional headquarters in the region in which they are being used.
2. (a) The precise numbers will not be known until the reorganization is completed, but those affected will be offered other positions within the Force with at least equivalent rank and salary, (b) No.


DEFINITION OF STOL TYPE AIRCRAFT
Mr. Reid: 1.	What is the Government of Canada's definition for a STOL type aircraft and, if there is not one, for what reason?
2.	Is this definition accepted by the various provinces and by the various regulatory authorities throughout Canada?
3.	Is this definition generally accepted internationally?


Gérard Loiselle: 1. There is no official definition of STOL type aircraft either in Canada or internationally since one has not been necessary up to the present.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Not applicable.
21774-17$
Questions


ATHABASCA CONSTITUENCY-INDIAN RESERVES LAND-USE STUDIES
Mr. Yewchuk: On which Indian Reserves, in the constituency of Athabasca have land-use studies been carried out and on which Reserves are land-use studies scheduled to be carried out during the present fiscal year?


Russell Clayton Honey: Six land-use studies have been completed in the constituency of Athabasca covering eleven Indian Reserves as follows: Driftpile River 150; Sucker Creek 150A; Swan River 150E and Assineau River 150F; Boyer 164 and Child Lake 164A; Beaver Ranch 163 and Tall Cree 173 and 173A; Fox Lake 162 and Jean D'Or Prairie 215.
No land-use studies are under way or scheduled to be carried out in that constituency in the 1970-71 fiscal year.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-ENGAGEMENT OF CONSULTANTS 1950-1970
Mr. Robinson: How many consultants have been engaged by the Department of National Defence during each year 1950 to 1970 inclusive, and (a) what was the cost of the consultants (b) how were the consultants utilized (c) for what reasons were the consultants necessary?


Mr. D. W. Groos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence):: Records are not maintained in a manner which would permit all consultants to be readily identifiable, and the necessary expert staff is not available the undertake the large amount of work which would be required to gather the necessary information. Since 1965, a number of management consultant studies have been undertaken, or are in progress, as detailed in the national defence portion of the reply to Mr. Skoberg's question No. 1,323 in the last session of Parliament and tabled on 25 June, 1969 (Votes and Proceedings page 1227).
The last study "Ships Design, Engineer and Acquisition-System Engineering Processes" by Stanwick Corporation is continuing in 1969-70 at an estimated total cost of $140,000.
In addition, in 1969, a System Validity Analysis of the DEVIL project was carried out by Computer Sciences Canada Limited at an estimated cost of $33,000.
The use of consultant assistance brings to the Department the technical competence and the objective point of view of an outsider who

March 11. 1970
Questions
may be in a position to help solve a problem, or suggest an alternate proposal which would meet the requirements.


AGRICULTURE-SUBSIDY TO MILK PRODUCERS
Mr. Robinson: What was the total subsidy paid to milk producers during each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive?


Hon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture):: The total subsidy payments to milk and cream producers each year 1960 to 1969 inclusive, were as follows: 1960-61, $11,432,769; 1961-62, $12,371,154; 1962-63, $13,257,869; 196364, $36,513,185; 1964-65, $35,497,064; 1965-66, $28,454,926; 1966-67, $76,370,116; 1967-68, $96,721,480; 1968-69, $101,106,073; 1969-70, (to Jan. 31/70) $77,947,932.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-USE OF TRADITIONAL UNIFORMS
Mr. MacLean: 1.	Are all Militia and Reserve Units of the Canadian Forces allowed to continue to use their traditional uniforms, as promised by the then Minister of National Defence in December 1966?
2.	Are Militia and Reserve Units being issued with the new uniforms which have been approved for the Permanent Forces and, if so, is this on a compulsory or optional basis?
3.	If traditional uniforms are no longer to be worn by Militia and Reserve Units, what compensation will be made to such units for the loss of traditional uniforms purchased out of non-public funds for bands, ceremonial occasions, guards, etc.?


David Walter Groos: The Militia is an element of the Canadian Forces Reserves and the policy regarding uniform applies equally to all elements. 1. Yes, as indicated on December 7, 1966, until all members of the Canadian Forces have been equipped with the new service dress, they may continue to wear the present uniform, regimental dress and mess dress uniforms on appropriate occasions.
2.	The Reserve Forces are being issued with combat clothing for field training which is that currently in use by the Regular Force. No firm date has been established for the issue of the new service uniform to the Reserve Forces, but it will not commence until after completion of the Regular Force issue program.
3.	Not applicable.


GOVERNMENT LAMB PREMIUM
Mr. MacLean: 1. What has been the rate of government premium paid on lamb for each of the past five fiscal years?

2.	On how many occasions, during these five years, has this rate been changed and, on what dates?
3.	What was the import of each of these changes?
4.	What has been the total amount paid under this premium policy to lamb producers in the Province of Prince Edward Island, for each of the past five fiscal years?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Choice	Good
	1 and 2	1 and 2
1964-65	$2	$11965-66	$2	$11966-67	$2	$11967-68	$2	$11968-69	$1	-Once, April 1,	1968.	3.	The change in 1968 did not affect the percentage of lambs grading Choice and Good in that year.4.	1964-65, $9,250; 1965-66, $8,349; 1966-67, $7,347; 1967-68, $4,470; 1968-69, $1,602.


GOVERNMENT BACON HOG PREMIUM
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,380
Mr. MacLean:: 1.	What has been the rate of government premium paid on bacon hogs for each of the past five fiscal years?
2.	On how many occasions, during these five years, has this rate been changed and, on what dates?
3.	What was the import of each of these changes?
4.	What has been the total amount paid under this premium policy to hog producers in the Province of Ptrince Edward Island, for each of the past five fiscal years?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: 1. 1964-65, $3 Grade A quality; 1965-66, $3 Grade A quality; 1966-67, $3 Grade A quality; 1967-68, $3 Grade A quality; 1968-69, $2 Grade A quality (9 months); $3 Canada index 103 or higher (3 months).
2.	Two. April 1, 1968 (reduced to $2 Grade A quality); December 31, 1968 (changed to $3 on Canada Index 103 or higher).
3.	The change on April 1, 1968 did not affect the percentage of hogs grading A. The change December 31, 1968 was associated with the change to the new Hog Carcass Valuation System which equated returns to the producer with value to the consumer.
4.	1964-65, $106,750; 1965-66, $108,651; 196667, $96,653; 1967-68, $152,530; 1968-69, $93,398.
March 11, 1970


NATIONAL DEFENCE-CF-5 AIRCRAFT
Mr. MacLean: 1.	How many CF-5 aircraft are now in service with the Canadian Defence Forces?
2.	Have any tanker aircraft been acquired for air-refueling of the CF-5?
3.	By what date is it expected that the full requirement of tanker aircraft for refueling the CF-5 aircraft will be procured for, and in service in the Canadian Defence Forces?


David Walter Groos: 1. Thirty.
2.	Two of the Boeing 707/347C being procured for the Canadian Forces will be modified to provide an in-flight refuelling capability.
3.	Approximately 24 months is required, as the lead time for the procurement of the parts is estimated at 14-16 months, with additional time being required for installation, checkout, instrumentation and flight testing.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-MARITIME COMMAND
Mr. MacLean: 1.	How many ships of each class are now in commission in Maritime Command?
2.	How many of these ships could be fully manned, up to the present authorized complement, in all trades, in case of emergency?
3.	In what trades, if any, is there a shortage of fully skilled personnel, under the present authorized complement?
4.	Does the de-commissioning of the aircraft carrier Bonaventure (a) create a surplus in some trades, and, if so, what trades (b) compensate for the shortage of certain trades in the complement of other ships (c) is there still a shortage of certain skilled trades for the manning of the remaining ships, even with the de-commissioning of the aircraft carrier Bonaventurel


David Walter Groos: 1. One A/S
aircraft carrier; Eleven destroyer escorts; Nine destroyer escorts (helicopter); Four submarines; Two operational support ships; Two repair vessels; Six minesweepers; One hydrofoil-still in experimental stage to determine its potential as an A/S vehicle; One diving depot ship.
2.	All of them.
3.	Small shortages (less than 15 per cent) exist in the trades of Radioman' Sea, Signalman Sea, and Radar Plotter.
4.	(a) Yes, a temporary surplus in the trades of Air Boatswain, Marine Engineering Technician and Electrical Technician. It is anticipated that this surplus will disappear in 1971; (b) Yes; (c) Yes, see 3.
Questions


GLACIER NATIONAL PARK
Mr. Harding: 1.	(a) How many private timber berths are there still remaining in Glacier National Park (b) who is the registered owner of each berth and what is the acreage involved in each?
2.	(a) How many private timber berths in Glacier National Park have been obtained by the Crown since December 1, 1968 by (i) purchase (ii) expropriation (b) what was the total amount paid for each timber berth?
3.	Is the federal government currently negotiating the purchase of any remaining timber berths and, if so, when are the negotiations likely to be concluded?
4.	Are there any privately held mineral claims in Glacier National Park and, if so (a) how many claims are held (b) who is the registered owner of each (c) what is the acreage involved in each case (d) is the federal government currently negotiating the purchase of these claims?


Russell Clayton Honey: 1. (a) One. (b) Selkirk Spruce Mills Ltd. own one berth covering the following area: Berth No. 117 3.37 sq. miles or 2,156.8 acres.
2.	(a) Five timber berths have been
purchased; however, in order to establish a date and to ensure that all claims are cleared by mutual agreement between vendor and purchaser, expropriation is being implemented. (b) Negotiations with the vendor, Kicking Horse Forest Products Ltd., were not based on the value of each individual berth but on their total holdings. These holdings were as follows:
Glacier National Park
	sq. miles		acres
Berth No. 40	6.25	or	4,000.0Berth No. 292	6.28	or	4,019.2Berth No. 328	1.85	or	1,184.0Berth No. 329	2.63	or	1,683.2Berth No. 342	11.88	or	7,603.2Total	28.89	18,489.6Mount Revelstoke National	Park	sq. miles	acresBerth No. 73	1.11	or	710.4
The total amount agreed upon for these holdings is $2,750,000 of which $1,250,000 has been paid.
3. Yes, negotiations have been completed for the purchase of the only remaining timber berth in Glacier National Park, held by Selkirk Spruce Mills, Ltd. The transfer of the title to the Crown is expected by March

March 11. 1970
Orders for Returns
31, 1970. Again in this case in order to establish a date and to ensure all claims are cleared by mutual agreement, expropriation will be implemented.
4.	Yes. (a) One; (b) Mr. B. C. McCorkell, Vancouver; (c) Approximately 25 acres; (d) No. This claim appears to have no economic value by itself and it is expected that it will lapse in time.


P.E.I.-AGRICULTURE LIME ASSISTANCE
Mr. MacLean: What is the total paid out under the Agriculture Lime Assistance program, for lime used by farmers in the Province of Prince Edward Island, for each fiscal year 1965-1966 to 1969-1970 inclusive?
Hon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture:
Nil.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Coates: 1.	How many commissions have been established by the present government since June 25, 1968?
2.	In each instance, what was the responsibility of the commission in question, what are the names of the individuals involved with each commission, what is the estimated cost of each commission, and on what date is a final report of their findings to be made available to the government?
Return tabled.


TYING UP OF P.E.I. FERRIES
Mr. MacLean: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to have the MV Confederation and the MV Lucy Maud Montgomery tied up in Halifax for the winter months and, if so, what is the cost involved for wharfage, insurance, security and other matters?
2.	Is it the intention to have any crew on either of these vessels for the winter months?
3.	Will the MV Lucy Maud Montgomery and/or the MV Confederation be undergoing refit during part or all of the period of tie-up and, if so, what is the estimated time required for refit in each case?
4.	What is the estimated cost of having one of these vessels retained at Borden or Cape Tormen-tine as an immediate reserve vessel, in case of breakdown of either the MV Abegweit or the MV John Hamilton Gray?
5.	If the crews of the MV Confederation and the MV Lucy Maud Montgomery are being laid off, what alternative employment is being provided for them?
6.	(a) If no alternative employment is being provided for the crews, what is the approximate total of the Unemployment Insurance benefits they will receive during the period of lay-off (b) will all crew members be qualified for Unemployment Insurance benefits during the whole of this period?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of National Health and Welfare and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of the Solicitor General and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Manpower and Immigration and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES AND FORESTRY
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Fisheries and Forestry and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.
March 11, 1970


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Veterans Affairs and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT
Mr. Comeau: 1.	In 1968-69 and 1969-70, what were the estimated sums spent on research in the Department of Transport and what was the purpose of each research project?
2.	How much money was actually expended according to Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures?
Return tabled.


FEDERAL GRANTS TO QUEBEC UNIVERSITIES
Mr. Rodrigue: Has the Canadian Government made grants to Quebec universities during the present fiscal year and, if so, in what amounts?
Return tabled.


POLLUTION-FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR WATERS IN CANADA'S CONTINENTAL SHELF
Mr. Harding: 1.	(a) Is the federal government responsible for the drafting and enforcement of pollution regulations in those waters covering Canada's Continental Shelf and, if so, what department has jurisdiction for the pollution regulations pertaining to oil exploration in such waters (b) what are the pollution regulations specifically covering all aspects of oil exploration in such waters (c) how are these regulations enforced (d) do the federal government regulations also apply to oil leases or surveys granted by provincial authorities?
2.	What other government departments have pollution regulations which may apply to the above waters?
Return tabled.


IMMIGRATION SINCE 1960
Mr. MacDonald (Egmonl): 1.	By year, how many people have immigrated to Canada since 1960?
2.	What number by nationality?
3.	How were these people settled by provinces?
4.	What steps are being taken to expand immigration to the Atlantic Provinces?
Orders for Returns


Walter C. Carter: I ask the Leader of the House for the fourth time when I may expect an answer to question 516 which has been on the order paper since November 20.


Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):: I shall have to make further inquiries, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: May I refer once again to starred question No. 1,265, dated February 18, asking how many letters, telegrams and other communications criticizing or condemning the white paper on taxation in whole or in part have been received by the Minister of Finance since January 1, 1970. I understood that the minister was going to provide an answer today.


Mr. Gray:: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can respond to the hon. member's question. We expect to have an answer shortly.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, this is playing fast and loose with Parliament. Even though they may prove embarrassing to the government, answers to starred questions should not be delayed in this way. There is nothing more serious than the manner in which this government treats the House with sublime contempt in respect of questions which should be answered. What do starred questions mean? This question has been left unanswered from February 18 to March 11. I know it is difficult for the government to count the innumerable letters and telegrams they have received and I understand how embarrassing this is. But the truth should not be hidden from this House.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that 68 questions were answered today and that more than 70 per cent of the questions asked this session have already been answered.


Mr. Robert McCleave (Halifax-East Hants):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the House to permit me to withdraw questions Nos. 1,242 and 1,243 which both deal with the Arrow tragedy and will both be answered, I believe, in the course of the judicial inquiry.


Mr. Speaker:: Is this agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Return tabled.
4660	COMMONS
U.S. Oil Import Restrictions



MOTION TO ADJOURN UNDER S.O. 26 OIL U.S. IMPORT RESTRICTIONS-EFFECT ON CANADIAN ECONOMY-RESPONSE OF GOVERNMENT

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave, seconded by my hon. friend from Waterloo, to move the adjournment of the House under Standing Order 26 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter requiring urgent consideration, namely, the announcement by the President of the United States on Canadian oil exports, its effect on the Canadian economy, and the response of the Canadian government to the arbitrary and unilateral action taken by the United States government.
[DOT] (2:40 p.m.)


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Nanai-mo-Cowichan-The Islands has given the Chair the notice required under Standing Order 26. As hon. members know, in determining whether an emergency debate should be granted the Chair must take into account, along with other factors, the probability of the matter being brought before the House within a reasonable length of time by other means. As the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands knows, and as is known by the House, there will be a budget presentation tomorrow followed by a budget debate within the next ensuing days. It seems to me there will thus be ample opportunity for the hon. member and others interested in this very important and urgent matter to consider it during the course of the debate.
It would appear, therefore, that the Chair would not be justified in allowing an emergency debate at this time under the provisions of Standing Order 26.



AGRICULTURE


Mr. Adrien Lambert (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 26, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Richmond (Mr. Beaudoin), the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing an important and urgent matter, namely concurrence in the first report of the standing committee on Agriculture, tabled in the House on Febru-

DEBATES	March 11, 1970
ary 17 last, whose recommendations must be discussed before the announcement of the dairy policy of the government for the coming year, that is before March 31, 1970.


Mr. Speaker:: As the previous speaker, the member for Bellechasse (Mr. Lambert), pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 26, has sent the Chair a notice of motion which he wishes to introduce and this has given me the opportunity to look into it carefully.
As the hon. member said, a motion has already been introduced in order to approve the report to which the hon. member referred and debate on this motion began on February 19, a debate which went on for some time on this occasion.
The order of the day for resuming debate is still standing in Routine Proceedings and, of course, this debate might be taken up again at any time at the discretion of the government. Finally-and this is the major aspect-I must point out that the near future will likely provide several opportunities for discussing this question. More particularly, I remind the hon. member that the budget debate which will begin tomorrow night will be carried on next week. I regret that, for these reasons, I cannot accept the motion proposed by the hon. member for Bellechasse.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions for the production of papers Nos. 334 and 361 are acceptable to the government.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the House that Notices of Motions Nos. 334 and 361 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



ELECTRIC REDUCTION COMPANY PLANT-CORRESPONDENCE WITH BEDFORD INSTITUTE OF OCEANOGRAPHY

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 334-Mr. Carter:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Government of Canada or any of its representatives and the Bedford Institute of Oceanography relating to the establishment of the Electric Reduction Company's Plant in Long Harbour, Newfoundland.
Motion agreed to.
March 11, 1970
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 361-Mr. McCleave:
That an Order of the House do issue for documents sent by the Personnel Policy Branch, Treasury Board Secretariat, to those groups which are the bargaining agents for employees in the Public Service (including Armed Forces and RCMP), relating to the statement of the President of the Treasury Board on December 19, 1969, in the House of Commons concerning extra benefits for superannuates.
Motion agreed to.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions Nos. 133 and 149 are acceptable to the government, subject to the usual conditions as regards confidential documents and to the approval of the government authorities concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations or conditions expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that Notices of Motions Nos. 133 and 149 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



EXPORT OF LOW-COST GOODS TO CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 133-Mr. Saltsman:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all current agreements or arrangements between Canada and other countries regarding the latter's restraints on the export of 'low-cost' goods to Canada.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 149-Mr. Harding:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all recent correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Government of Ontario regarding anti-pollution regulations for jet aircraft.
Motion agreed to.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call notices of motions Nos. 53, 54, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 197, 245, 248, 249, 250, 272, 289, 319, 320, 324, 352, 370, 372 and 385?
I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining notices of motions be allowed to stand.



&quot;MANHATTAN&quot; PROJECT-DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS AND HUMBLE OIL COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 53-Mr. Thomson:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of all correspondence between the Department of External Affairs and the Humble Oil Company and its partners in relation to the Manhattan project.
['Agreed.']
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
"MANHATTAN" PROJECT-DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS AND U.S. GOVERNMENT Motion No. 54


Mr. Thomson:: That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all correspondence between the Department of External Affairs and the United States Government in relation to the Manhattan project.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.



[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 187-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Peat, Marwick, Livingstone and Company, Boston, USA undertaken for the Department of Defence Production in 1965 on the development of an effective management system for equipment acquisition products, mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
Hon. James Richardson (Minister of Supply and Services):: Mr. Speaker, the report referred to was commissioned as a working document for the internal use of the former department of defence production. As such it is considered confidential and not in the public interest to table. In these circumstances I hope that the hon. member will be willing to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Skoberg:: Mr. Speaker, I believe that a working document, if it does not contain names, should not be confidential and I would ask for a vote at this time.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for
debate.
4662

March 11. 1970
Motions for Papers


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is transferred for debate.


AUTOMOTIVE VEHICLE SAFETY CODE
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 188-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by J. A. Bancroft, Ottawa, Ontario, undertaken for the Department of Defence Production in 1965 on the development of an automotive vehicle safety code, mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, there is no specific report resulting from the work undertaken by Mr. Bancroft for the former Department of Defence Production. Mr. Bancroft's services were retained to provide technical advice in the preparation of the automotive vehicle safety code, and not to prepare a consultant's report. I therefore hope that the hon. member may be willing to withdraw the motion.


John Leroy Skoberg: I will withdraw it.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


PLANNING, PROGRAMMING AND BUDGETING, DEFENCE PRODUCTION
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 189-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do Issue for a copy of the consultant report by Peat, Marwick, Livingstone and Company, Boston, USA, undertaken for the Department of Defence Production on the development of departmental planning, programming and budgeting system, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, the answer is the same as the one just given in reply to motion for the production of papers No. 187. I therefore ask the hon. member again to withdraw.


John Leroy Skoberg: I make the same request for a vote.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: And I make the same request.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


PROJECT MANAGEMENT IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM, DEFENCE PRODUCTION
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 190-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Peat, Marwick, Livingstone and Company, Boston, USA, undertaken for the Department of Defence Production on the development of an effective project management improvement program, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
[Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale).)
James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, the answer is the same as the one just given in reply to motions for production of papers Nos. 187 and 189. I would ask that it be withdrawn.


John Leroy Skoberg: The same request.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: And the same.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


AUTOMOTIVE VEHICLE SAFETY CODE
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 191-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by J. A. Bancroft, undertaken for the Department of Defence Production in 1968 on the further development of the automotive vehicle safety code, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, the reply to this motion which refers to the work done by Mr. J. A. Bancroft is the same as the reply given to the motion for production of papers No. 188. Once again, in the circumstances I trust that the hon. member will agree to withdraw the motion.


John Leroy Skoberg: I agree.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


POLLUTION OF B.C. WATERS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 197-Mr. Rose:
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of all correspondence between the Department of Fisheries and Forestry and pulp mills in British Columbia regarding the pollution of B.C. waters and the pollution guidelines of the Department.
Mr. E. F. Whelan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, it is the view of the government that the tabling of this correspondence would seriously affect the confidence and effective relationships between the department and the companies in question. Frank discussions between the parties would be inhibited and the successful relationships established between the department and the pulp mills seriously hampered. In view of this fact we should like to request of the conscientious hon. member that the motion be withdrawn.


Mr. Rose:: Mr. Speaker, it is my view that information on pollution should be public. If I cannot get the information from the department then I may move in on Information Canada.
March 11, 1970

Motions jor Papers


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale): Transfer for debate.	debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


LEATHER FOOTWEAR INDUSTRY PRODUCTIVITY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 245-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by John L. Schwab Associates on productivity in the Canadian Leather Footwear Industry undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce is willing to table copies of the consultant's three volume report which contains his evaluations, appraisals and recommendations. There is some supporting data of a highly technical nature which is not available in sufficient copies to permit tabling. However, the minister would be pleased to show it to the hon. member or anyone else who may wish to see it


John Leroy Skoberg: Agreed, Mr. Speaker.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 248-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Northern Electric Company Limited on Canadian Communications satellite systems undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce wishes to inform the member that the report in question contains proprietary information, disclosure of which is prohibited by the agreement under which Northern Electric Company Limited supplies this report to the government. In these circumstances the minister would respectfully ask the hon. member for Moose Jaw to withdraw his motion.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I believe we should have further information and I would ask for a vote on this.
21774-18J


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


DESIGN IN CANADIAN INDUSTRY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 249-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Price Waterhouse Associates on a survey of design in Canadian industry undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce wishes to inform the hon. member that he is willing to table copies of this study with the exception of certain supplementary information which was submitted, in addition to the report, by the consultant. This supplementary information deals with the establishments which were canvassed for the study, completed questionnaires and similar information which was received on a confidential basis.


John Leroy Skoberg: Agreed, Mr. Speaker.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 250-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by RCA Victor Company Limited on a Canadian Communications satellite system undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question number 1,323 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce wishes to inform the member that the report in question contains proprietary information, disclosure of which is prohibited by the agreement under which RCA Victor Company Ltd. supplied this report to the government. In these circumstances, the minister would ask the hon. member for Moose Jaw to withdraw his motion.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I would not want to be partial so I believe I should call for a vote.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.

March 11. 1970
Motions for Papers


GULF OF GEORGIA OIL DRILLING COST-BENEFIT STUDY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 272-Mr. Rose:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the cost-benefit study undertaken in the Department of Fisheries and Forestry regarding drilling for oil in the Gulf of Georgia as mentioned by the Minister of Fisheries and Forestry.
Eugene Whelan: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries and Forestry is undertaking a cost-benefit analysis regarding the drilling for oil in the Strait of Georgia. However, it will be a considerable time before it is completed. In view of the fact that there is therefore no report available at the present time, may I suggest to the hon. and reasonable member that he may wish to withdraw his motion.


Mark Willson Rose: Mr. Speaker, since I am always honourable and reasonable and since the minister in question has called for an underwater national park in this particular area I can therefore assume that the cost must be greater than the benefit.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is dropped.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


DEFENCE PRODUCTION SHARING-CANADIAN FIRMS EXPORTING TO U.S.
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 289-Mr. Broadbeni:
That an Order of the House do Issue for a list of all Canadian firms exporting products to the United States, under the Canada-U.S. Defence Production Sharing Agreement from its inception in 1959 to November 30, 1969, listing the specific materials, components, etc., exported and the dollar aggregates involved.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I move the motion on behalf of the hon. member.


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the information requested is not releasable since it is provided to the Canadian government for statistical purposes only and on the understanding that it is to be treated as commercially confidential affecting the competitive position of the companies involved. In view of this, the minister would ask the hon. member to withdraw his motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Question!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


REPORT ON POLICY AND PLANNING BRANCH, ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 319-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Operation Research Industries Limited undertaken for the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources regarding a quantitative assessment of the Policy and Planning Branch as mentioned in answer to Question Number 2,452 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the report is an internal working document relating to the internal organization of this section of the department; its release is not considered to be in the public interest. Under these circumstances it is suggested that the hon. member be requested to withdraw his motion.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I will put that to a vote.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


REPORT ON WATER SURVEY OF CANADA DIVISION
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 320-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by James F. MacLaren Limited undertaken for the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources regarding a review of the Water Survey of Canada Division as mentioned in answer to Question Number 2,452 of the past Session.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, the answer is the same as the previous answer to Notice of Motion No. 319.


John Leroy Skoberg: And a like request.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


PRIMARY DISTRIBUTORS, CANADIAN GOVERNMENT SECURITIES
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 324-Mr. Saltsman:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of a list of (a) the approximately 200 primary distributors of Government of Canada marketable securities, and (b) the primary distributors who are at present eligible to enter into purchase and resale agreements with the Bank of Canada, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 65 and reported in Hansard of December 17, 1969 at page 2067.
March 11, 1970
Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, inclusion of a firm at any particular time in the requested lists depends on its being actively and continuously engaged in the distribution of trustee-type securities and in its demonstrated ability to market government of Canada securities. Composition of these lists changes from time to time. Publication of these lists as at a certain date could lead to unfair reflection on a firm which happened to be omitted at that particular time. For this reason and, in the case of Part (b) of the motion, because of the banker-client relationship involved and because the number of primary distributors eligible to enter into purchase and resale agreements with the Bank of Canada changes from time to time, it is not considered in the public interest to publish the lists requested, and it has not been the practice of government to do so. In the circumstances, I hope the hon. member will agree to withdraw the motion.


Mr. Sallsman:: Mr. Speaker, I cannot accept the minister's need for secrecy in this particular matter. I believe it would be in the public interest to disclose the dealers.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


STUDY OF GOLD MINING OPERATIONS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 352-Mr. Pelers:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the study on gold mining operations undertaken in the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources as mentioned by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources and reported in Hansard of January 23, 1970, at page 2738.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act will expire on December 31, 1970. The study relating to gold mining in Canada is under way at the present time. It is expected to be completed by the middle of this year. On receipt of the report a decision will be made on whether it will be made public. In view of this, I hope the hon. member will withdraw his motion.


Mr. Peters:: Question, Mr. Speaker.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.
Motions jor Papers


INDIAN LAND AND TREATY CLAIMS AND ABORIGINAL RIGHTS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 370-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between Dr. Lloyd Barber and the Native Indian peoples organizations across Canada regarding the matter of Indian land and treaty claims and aboriginal rights.
Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, I am informed by the commissioner that it would not be in the best interests of the commission and the native Indian peoples to make these documents public. I would hope, therefore, that the hon. member would agree to withdraw this motion.


Mr. Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, it is pretty presumptuous for the commissioner to decide what is in the best interests of the Indian people. Let them decide.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


BACKGROUND PAPERS AND REPORTS ON TAX REFORM PROPOSALS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 372-Mr. Sallsman:
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of all background papers and reports related to Chapter 8 of the Government White Paper on Proposals for Tax Reform regarding the impact on revenues and the economy.
Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, the papers and reports requested by the hon. member are internal working papers prepared for ministers by departmental officials and, as such, are privileged documents. In view of this I hope the hon. member will consider withdrawing his motion.


Max Saltsman: Mr. Speaker, in view of the uncertainty regarding the impact of these taxes I think it would be very much in the public interest that they be made public.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


PHASE-OUT OF U.S. ARGENTIA NAVAL BASE
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 385-Mr. Lewis:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all the correspondence.
4666	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry memoranda, communications, etc., between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States regarding the phase-out of the United States Argentia naval base in Newfoundland.
Mr. Jean-Pierre Goyer (Parliamentary Secretary to Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, the documents requested are part of confidential discussions with the United States government, and I therefore ask the hon. member to withdraw the motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Question!


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Transfer for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, before we proceed to the next item, although I see that the Solicitor General is not with us at the moment I wonder whether I might make an inquiry in respect of Notice of Motion No. 356 which relates to the food strike or protest sitdown at Prince Albert penitentiary just before Christmas. This Notice of Motion has been on the order for about five weeks now. I wonder whether some indication could be given concerning when this might be dealt with.


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, I will bring this matter to the attention of the minister.


Mr. Marshall:: Mr. Speaker, I should like to draw attention to Notices of Motions for the production of papers No. 345 and No. 346. It seems strange to me that these papers could nt be produced before now since the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion has made an announcement which has to do with these papers.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the remaining Notices of Motion stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Hon. Martial Asselin (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Transport.

DEBATES	March 11, 1970
Since the Quebec Minister of Municipal Affairs this morning agreed to Ste Scholastique as the site of the proposed international airport and tabled all the relevant papers, I should like to know whether the Minister of Transport in turn intends to table in the House the federal government file in order that the Canadian people might be adequately informed on that long-standing issue?


Hon. Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, in so far as
the general comments made by the minister from the province of Quebec are concerned I have not yet seen these and naturally would prefer to have an opportunity to peruse them before making any detailed comment. I would hope to give a more definite answer tomorrow.



STE SCHOLASTIQUE-PREPARATION AND DEVELOPMENT OF AREA

Martial Asselin: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion.
The Quebec Minister of Municipal Affairs stated this morning that land development was the concern of the province. Does the minister agree with this statement? If so, will he soon meet with the Quebec authorities for the purpose of determining this policy?


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think that the first part of the hon. member's question is in order, but the minister may wish to answer the second part.


Jean Marchand: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We are in contact with the Department of Municipal Affairs of Quebec and we are trying to establish structures in order to ensure the orderly development of the Ste Scholastique region.


Martial Asselin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put another supplementary question to the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion.
Does he intend to co-operate with the Minister of Municipal Affairs of Quebec in order to make the development of the territory economically possible?


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, I am ready to co-operate in that respect.


Mr. Georges Valade (Sainie-Marie):: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Transport.
March 11. 1970

I should like to point out to the minister that, as an answer to a question asked in the House on January 30, he had undertaken to make a statement in order to give detailed information about this airport. As he did not follow through and as the Minister of the Municipal Affairs of Quebec stated this morning that the government had given no answer to the proposals of Quebec about economic development and expansion, I should like to ask him whether he intends nevertheless to carry on the work at the Ste Scholastique airport without having agreed about that beforehand with the government of Quebec?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the latter part of the question, I indicated earlier that discussions were going on, and in fact I have had conversations with the Minister of Municipal Affairs for the province of Quebec. I apologize to the hon. member and to the House for not having made the promised statement earlier, but the fact is that these negotiations are a necessary preliminary to that statement and they are not yet completed.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a supplementary question to the Minister of Transport.
Considering the particular circumstances and the urgency of the question, I would like to ask him if he would undertake to make a statement in the House either tomorrow or the day after, with regard to the construction of the Ste Scholastique airport?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: As I indicated in reply to an earlier question, I will take a close look at the reported statements of the spokesmen for the province of Quebec and will be governed accordingly.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Transport.
Are the discussions taking place now with representatives of the province of Quebec still connected with changing the airport site? Is this a final decision, and will the government proceed with the construction of this airport?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: I can say unequivocally that the site is Ste Scholastique, that we are proinquiries of the Ministry ceeding, that a number of important contracts have already been let, that as soon as the ground is free of snow the clearing will get under way, and I hope there will be no unnecessary impediment to the provision of a good deal of labour in that area.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Transport.
In view of the reply he has just given, could he tell us clearly and specifically whether the federal government intends to carry on with the project even if Quebec does not accept the regional development and the land use proposed?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that this is essentially a hypothetical question, but if we have to go it alone, we will.


An hon. Member:: That is what 30-buck Benson said.


Mr. Ricard:: You are passing the buck, as usual.



REPORTED WILLINGNESS OF CANADIAN


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister and at the same time welcome him back from Canada's Arctic, over which I trust Canadian sovereignty reigns supreme. In view of the statement by Philip Trezise, the Assistant Secretary of State for Economic Affairs in the U.S. government, to the effect that the Canadian government fully understood the need for the cutbacks in shipments of Canadian oil to the United States, and that if Washington had not imposed these cutbacks the Canadian government would have done so, I ask whether the Canadian government concurred in the cutbacks and was prepared to impose these restrictions at the request of the U.S. government.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, it is not true, of course, that the Canadian government concurred in the action taken by the U.S. government in imposing a limitation on imports from Canada into the United States. It is true,
March 11. 1970

Inquiries of the Ministry as the hon. gentleman knows and as is known particularly by those who were responsible at the beginning for the negotiation of the open border between Canada and the United States, that there was always an underlying agreement for restraint on the part of Canada. During these negotiations we offered to continue the policy of restraint. That, however, was rejected by the U.S. government because the figures at which we were prepared to apply restraint were very much larger than they were willing to accept.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I ask the Prime Minister, in view of the recommendations of the presidential task force headed by Mr. George Shultz, Secretary of Labour, suggesting that any removal of curtailment of Canadian shipments of oil to the United States should be contingent upon an energy package policy, whether any discussions are going on regarding an energy package policy. Also, can the Prime Minister assure the House that before any agreement is signed in this regard, the House will have a full opportunity to become acquainted with the nature of the agreement?


Mitchell William Sharp: First of all, I would like to deny that there is any necessary relationship between any future action on the part of the United States and the removal of restrictions on imports of oil from Canada. I believe they took action in the interest of maintaining some stability in the oil industry in the United States. There have been some discussions of a peripheral character with respect to an exchange of energy. There has been no decision of any kind on a continental policy or anything similar. I said in a statement the other day that we were seeking harmonious policies between our two countries. I think that is what we should be pursuing.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for
Crowfoot.
Mr.	Douglas	(Nanaimo-Cowichan-TheIslands):	I rise on	a point of order, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. Is the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands rising on a point of order?
Mr.	Douglas	(Nanaimo-Cowichan-The
Islands): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I asked the Prime Minister for a certain assurance and have twice received evasive replies from the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Surely the House is entitled to a reply from the Prime


Minister, particularly when a question is asked about a very important matter of government policy.


Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, speaking on the point of order raised by the hon. member, may I say that I am busily reading the debate that took place last Thursday during which I was accused of exercising too much power. I thought it would be nice if I let some ministers exercise it.


An hon. Member:: Why don't you do that all the time?


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the fact that the recent increase in Canadian crude exports was largely the result of Canadian entry into the Chicago market, and that entry into the Chicago market was the benefit which Canada was to obtain for restricting its exports under the 1967 secret agreement, does the government not feel that this cutback of one-third of Canada's exports to the United States is the beginning of a squeeze by the U.S. government on our whole economy as a result of other actions of this government?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker.


An hon. Member:: What other action?


John (Jack) Henry Horner: I will explain that later.


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I put a further supplementary question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is it the intention of the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources to make another trip to Washington to discuss this matter with Secretary Hickel?


Mitchell William Sharp: As the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources said yesterday, we do not agree with the action of the United States in imposing these restrictions. We understand they are temporary: that is our view and our belief. I am sure that all members of the House, even including members of the New Democratic Party, will want to have this restriction removed.



INDUSTRY


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion.
March 11, 1970

Since the government will decide this year whether subsidies are to be paid to gold mines over the next three years, can the minister inform the House whether the government will maintain these subsidies so as not to harm the economy of the north-western region of Quebec?


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, contrary to previous remarks by the hon. member, I have never stated that I was opposed to subsidies. The problem of gold mines, particularly as regards workers, is being considered by the department. We shall try to take into account the interests of the workers and the municipalities concerned in this issue.



TAXATION


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in view of the hope that was expressed, that participatory democracy would assure us a new world, I ask the Minister of Finance a question in connection with the letters he has received on the proposed tax reforms. Was there too much participatory democracy on the part of the Canadian people? Further, what is the reason for not answering these letters? Are the objections and complaints as numerous as the sands of the sea?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


John George Diefenbaker: I would like to know, because this looks like a flagrant disregard of Parliament.


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I would be most pleased to answer the hon. member's question. I have been very encouraged by the letters I have received-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Alkenbrack:: But not from Kingston and the islands.


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, for the first time in parliamentary history in Canada, Great Britain and anywhere where there is a parliamentary system such as ours, a government has had the guts to bring forward proposals for such tax reforms.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The minister might want to answer the question, but it seems to me that we are entering the field of debate.


John George Diefenbaker: I am tremendously interested in the knowledge of anatomy displayed by the minister and I ask why does he not have that particular quality in answering this question.


Edgar John Benson: I will answer-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Lancas-ter):: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance a supplementary question about all these letters he is so pleased about. Among those letters was there one from the hon. member for Trinity with suggestions for dealing with the desperate plight of Canadian finance today?



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. Marcel Prud'homme (Saint-Denis):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Could he tell the House whether the Canadian government has reached agreement with the government of Quebec concerning the composition of the Canadian delegation to the Niamey conference?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, these discussions are still under way.


Marcel Prud'homme: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question.
Seeing that the conference is being held this weekend, would the minister state to the House if the talks are actually at a point where the Canadian delegation will not be able to attend this conference?


Mitchell William Sharp: Yes, Mr. Speaker. On one point I can be very clear; the delegation will be led by my colleague the Secretary of State. He has already left Ottawa on his way to the conference.
March 11. 1970

Inquiries of the Ministry [Translation]


Mr. Roch La Salle (Jolielle):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The member for
Joliette wishes to ask a supplementary question.


Roch La Salle: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Prime Minister if he could tell the House whether he has received from the Quebec government any recent proposals which could justify the appointment of a co-chairman for this conference?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: As has just been said by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, Mr. Speaker, negotiations are still under way between representatives of both governments.


Martial Asselin: I wish to ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I must bring to the attention of hon. members-


David Réal Caouette: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is seeking the floor on a supplementary. Order. Four or five members are rising apparently to ask supplementaries. Would the hon. member for Temiscamingue please resume his seat. I must point out to the hon. member for Temiscamingue, to the hon. member for Saint-Denis and to several others who wish to ask supplementary questions in this connection, that time is running out and it would be perhaps proper for us to proceed to something else.


Georges-J. Valade: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Sainte-Marie is rising on a point of order.


Georges-J. Valade: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
A conference in which Quebec is highly interested is being held and it must be decided today whether Quebec will participate. I believe this is an urgent matter. The Prime Minister did not give an adequate answer to the hon. member for Joliette and I would like to ask him a question about it.


POLLUTION
Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe North):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the alarming degree of air pollution found at Toronto International Airport, far above the maximum safety level allowed, what steps are being taken to handle this very serious situation?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I indicated some weeks ago that Canadian airlines have been requested to adapt the exhausts of their jet engines to lower the level of pollution. They have undertaken to do this voluntarily. I am hoping the whole program can be completed within three years.


NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Thomas S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Has he agreed to the request that the aboriginal rights to land in the Northwest Territories be settled before any lands are set aside for national parks in that territory?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: Mr. Speaker, I have met with the representatives of the Indian Federation of the Northwest Territories and we had a discussion on the matter. It has been agreed that the representatives of the Indian Federation of the Territories will meet the experts of my department working on the development of a park in that area. In addition, when I visit the Northwest Territories during the stay of Her Majesty the Queen in Canada, on July 8, I will again meeet the representatives of the Indian Federation of the Territories in that connection.


FINANCE
Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance a question.
March 11, 1970

Can he tell the House whether he intends to reply to the letter which was sent to him by the Quebec Minister of Finance on February 26 last and which was tabled in the Quebec legislature yesterday?


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, an answer to this letter is being prepared.


POLLUTION
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Your Honour may recall that I asked this question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs on Monday, and he indicated that the Minister of Transport would be prepared to reply today. Assuming it has been brought to the minister's attention, is the minister now prepared to state whether the Humble Oil Company has agreed to the regulations required by the Canadian government? Also, would the minister table the regulations with which the Manhattan is expected to comply?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a formal letter of compliance from Humble Oil at the moment, but we have had every indication that they are prepared to comply. The list of requirements is now in the final draft stage. We have carried out a preliminary study of the ship and the list of requirements and general assessments as a result of that study is now being prepared. As I mentioned earlier in the House there is no reason why this list should not be tabled, I hope before the end of the week.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: As a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, could the minister give us the date of the sailing of the Manhattan? Also, has a draft of these requirements been sent to the Humble Oil Company? If not, how could they reply?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I shall try to go over this matter step by step in as brief a time as you will permit. In the first instance, I repeat that we carried out a preliminary investigation of the ship over the last weekend to give us an idea of what is in place now. Having done that, the inspectors are writing, indicating what additional steps they think should be taken. This list of steps is being drafted and will be sent to Humble
Inquiries of the Ministry
Oil.	It will be tabled in this House, I hope before the end of this week. As to the date of sailing, that will be around April 1. But there will not be any sailing unless and until these regulations have been met.


EFFECT OF HATE LITERATURE BILL ON PARLIAMENTARY IMMUNITY
Mr. William Skoreyko (Edmonton East):: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Solicitor General this question. If in free expression in this chamber any member brings himself within the terms of the hate literature bill, would the normal parliamentary immunity apply to that member?


George James McIlraith: 


Mr.   Speaker-Mr. Speaker@: Order, please. I would not think that the question as asked is in order as a verbal question at this time. I would think it might be placed on the Order Paper. At the same time, it seems to me the hon. member is asking for the expression of a legal opinion and I do not think the question is in order.


INDUSTRY
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister without Portfolio from Windsor West. Is he prepared to provide the House, and consequently the public, with the terms of reference regarding his examination of foreign ownership of industry in Canada?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, this task is being carried out as part of cabinet duties, and it is a matter for the decision of cabinet and the Prime Minister.


Frank Howard: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to determine whether under the aegis of the minister's study he is taking account of the question of international unions as well as international companies.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Mr. Roland Godin (Portneuf):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport.
4672	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry
Does the minister know that a certain party, by the name of J. A. Gauthier, an employee of the Canadian National, is presently rudely soliciting members of certain municipal councils in the Province of Quebec in order to obtain their agreement with regard to the shutting-down of some stations? If so, what gives this individual the right to make threats?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member's question should be placed on the order paper.


THE BUDGET
Mr. P. M. Mahoney (Calgary South):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance and concerns tomorrow evening's trans-Canada release of the text of his budget speech. In view of the emerging commercial significance of former fur trading posts such as Edmonton which are not endowed with an agency of the Bank of Canada, does the minister intend to follow the precedent established in the release of the white paper on taxation by using the district offices of the Department of National Revenue?


Edgar John Benson: No, Mr. Speaker, we shall follow the usual budgetary procedure and use Bank of Canada offices.


EXPECTATION OF INCREASE IN OLD AGE ASSISTANCE
[Stage Direction]
Hon, J. W. Monleilh (Perth): Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance about a statement by Senator Croll concerning increased old age assistance. I quote from a newspaper report as follows:
I think we can expect that will be looked after in the budget. It is more than hoped; I think we can expect it.
I wonder whether this is government policy, and can we expect it to be announced tomorrow night in the budget?
Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I do not think the question as asked is in order. The hon. member for Cumberland-Colchester North.


Mr. Monieith:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, this looks to me very much like a budget leak and it seems to me the question should be answered.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I suggested to the hon. member that the question as asked

DEBATES	March 11. 1970
was not in order. He was asking whether a statement made by a Senator or person other than a member of the government represented government policy. The question in those terms was not in order. However, if the hon. member has another angle he would like to inquire about, the minister might wish to reply.


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, I would simply say that I believe Senator Croll knows about as much about what is in the budget as my hon. friend.
In answer to the previous question, the reason I am pleased with the letters is that they contain so much constructive comment, unlike the comment-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon.
member for Cumberland-Colchester North.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member wishes to ask a supplementary question but here again I must remind hon. members that there are only a few minutes left before the end of the question period. I was hoping that many hon. members would have the opportunity to ask their questions, and that is why I intended to recognize.

Order, please. I have recognized the hon. member for Cumberland-Colchester North.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member on a point of order.


David Réal Caouette: With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, I realize that some hon. members and, more especially, some party leaders are allowed to ask up to ten supplementary questions. I beg to ask a second one in the whole afternoon and I am asked to resume my seat. I simply wish to ask a question of the Minister of Finance.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I will be pleased to recognize the hon. member in a moment, but I have now recognized the hon. member for Cumberland-Colchester North.
March XI. 1970


REGIONAL ECONOMIC EXPANSION
Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland-Colches-ter North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion. Could the minister indicate when he will be making an announcement as to the assistance that will be provided to the province of Nova Scotia to carry out its highway program?


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, it will be at the same time as the agreement is signed with the province of Nova Scotia.


TAXATION
David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance a question.
He was saying awhile ago that he has been receiving a great number of favourable letters from the Canadian taxpayers since they became acquainted with the white paper. Could the minister tell us if he answers all the letters received from Canadian citizens or taxpayers about the white paper?


Edgar John Benson: Yes, Mr. Speaker-and I hope my hon. friends opposite will not complain if I have to get extra staff to help me.


Thomas Miller Bell: Use some of the Prime Minister's.


CONSUMER AFFAIRS
Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Is his department investigating the practice of some retailers in not passing on savings which are apparently intended for the consumer? For example, if on a pound of coffee it is indicated that there is a reduction of six cents from the original price, is his department investigating the practice of some retailers in not passing on this saving to the consumer but retaining it for themselves?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that I follow the example and I wish the hon. member would send it to me. We have charged and have had a number of people convicted who have been using cents-off transactions to misrepresent the price of goods to consumers.


HEALTH AND WELFARE
Mr. Don Mazankowski (Vegreville):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. However, in his absence I might be permitted to direct it to the Parliamentary Secretary. Could the Parliamentary Secretary indicate whether the minister has had the opportunity to review the recommendations set forth in the recent Canadian Welfare Council report, outlining a number of initiatives which the federal government might consider respecting the formation of a national youth policy? Also, could the Parliamentary Secretary indicate whether the minister will be making a statement on motions concerning this matter?


Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I will make inquiries of the minister.


NORTHERN AFFAIRS
Mr. Steven E. Paproski (Edmonton Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister, now that he has returned from his extensive tour of the Arctic, report to the House his conclusions regarding a national policy to develop our last great frontier?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I would hope the Prime Minister would not make such a statement now. I would think a statement of this nature would have to be made on motions.


Steve Eugene Paproski: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Surely the Prime Minister is able to give us one drum solo, or is he through beating his own drum?
4674	COMMONS DEBATES	March 11. 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry
COMBINES	Combines Investigation Act. Specific provisions of the act will be revealed when the bill REPORT ON national hockey LEAGUE receives first reading.
ACTIVITIES


Mark Willson Rose: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a non-musical question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Did he receive recently a report and certain recommendations concerning possible combine activities of the National Hockey League? If he did, when is the minister prepared to make this report public?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, as I have stated many times, inquiries under the Combines Investigations Act are kept secret until such time as a report is made by the Restrictive Trade Practices Commission or a charge is laid in the courts.


INQUIRY AS TO NEW ACT
John George Diefenbaker: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. As a result of the Young Commission and the discussions that have taken place in recent weeks, does the government intend to bring in a new combines act?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, as I explained to the House several times and in the committee yesterday, we are working overtime in the department to produce a revised combines act which, as we said in the Speech from the Throne, we hoped would be introduced in this session.


John George Diefenbaker: Will it be introduced in this session, or will it be postponed?


Stanley Ronald Basford: We certainly hope it can be introduced before the end of June, Mr. Speaker.


AMENDMENTS RELATING TO PROFESSIONAL SPORT
Mr. Warren Allmand (Nolre-Dame-de-Grace):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister intend to introduce amendments to the Combines Investigation Act relative to professional sports? Is this being planned right now?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, it is my hope to introduce a complete revision of the


POLLUTION
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport concerning pollution control costs caused by the sunken oil tanker Arrow in Chedabucto Bay. As the minister is aware, some 1,200 people are employed in the fish plants in this area and in order to prevent the shutdown of these plants due to contaminated seawater, provincial authorities have expended funds in the hope of finding other sources of water. My question is: Will the federal government reimburse the provincial departments of mines, fisheries, lands and forests, and others, for the expenses incurred as a result of this disaster?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, as I have stated on numerous occasions, my hope is that the polluters themselves will eventually bear the responsibility for all costs in this connection. I can tell the hon. member and the House, however, that a letter has gone, or will be going today, to the government of Nova Scotia indicating that any expenditures it undertakes will be regarded by the federal government as a first charge against the insurance money that we know is available.


AIR TRANSPORT
Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Brefon-Easl Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. Has the minister been made aware of arrangements respecting air traffic through Maritime airports between Air Canada and EPA? If so, how long did it take these arrangements to come about?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I have not had any
formal advice from either of those airlines. In the case of Air Canada, I investigated the question which the hon. member posed the other day. There is some change contemplated. As I understand it, it will not be announced until their spring or summer schedule is put forward. It has not been given to me.
March 11. 1970


Malcolm MacInnis: A supplementary question. Will the minister acquaint himself with what is common knowledge and take steps to stop arrangements made behind his back? These arrangements have been finalized. Air Canada officials and EPA officials have made public announcements on television in Cape Breton. Since this question was brought to the minister's attention some time ago, he must realize the arrangements are objectionable to the people in that area. Something should be done about their underhanded methods.


Donald Campbell Jamieson: I do not propose to comment on the adjectives used by the hon. member other than to repeat that officially I have not had any advice on this matter. I took it up as a result of the hon. member's earlier reports, which at that time had to do primarily with the assurance of employment for Air Canada employees. I was advised, in fact, that no such employment problems would exist.


Malcolm MacInnis: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the minister has referred to my earlier question and is talking about employment. At no time did I mention employment. I repeat the question, for the benefit of the minister. On February 24-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I bring to the hon. member's attention that we appear to be entering a debate between the minister and the hon. member. It is not a question of privilege. The hon. member might want to ask a supplementary, but I do not think he has a question of privilege.


Malcolm MacInnis: I rise on a further question of privilege. The minister must be talking about a question put by someone else, because my question had nothing to do with the assurance of employment. My question was directed to the minister, and I repeat-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I am sure all hon. members will accept the member's statement about what he said previously. It seems this is a debate. The minister and all hon. members must accept the word of the hon. member when he says a certain statement was not uttered by him previously.


Malcolm MacInnis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the minister has to accept it when it is written into the record. On the point of order, the question arises as to what the minister is going to do about arrangements between EPA and publicly-owned Air Canada, when the people in the area are expressing dissatisfaction and the minister is allowing this situation to go on.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: Essentially, this is a repetition of the earlier question asked by the hon. member.


PAN-AMERICAN GAMES-GRANTING OF FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO WINNIPEG
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Supply and Services. In view of the fact that Hansard records many questions about Winnipeg's request for assistance in connection with the deficit with respect to the Pan American Games, and in view of the fact Hansard does not record what was done, will the minister seek the consent of the House to table the press release on this matter and his letter to Mayor Juba of a few days ago, and have them added to Hansard so the record will be complete?


James Armstrong Richardson: Mr. Speaker, the letter to Mayor Juba is of course public. I shall be very pleased to table it and accede to the request of the hon. member.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May it be made an appendix to Hansard, Mr. Speaker?


Stanley Howard Knowles: rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, relating to something that happened a few moments ago in the question period. I asked if the Minister of Supply and Services could be permitted to table certain documents and have them appended to today's Hansard. He was willing to do so, but I do not think the matter was settled. I wonder if it could be so ordered?


Mr. Speaker:: Is this agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: For text of documents see appendix.]




Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question of which I recently gave him notice. Will he indicate to the House, either now or on motions, the
March 11, 1970

Inquiries of the Ministry normal time experienced by the department in the processing of applications for passports? I suggest the question has urgency because some people still think the situation in the passport office is the same as it was last year.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I would now have to ascertain just how long a period it is.
I heard recently that sometimes a passport can be obtained within a couple of days. On the other hand, I have felt it very desirable, and I repeat it here, to advise all who read Hansard or read about it in the newspapers to apply for their passports well in advance of travelling because delays occur later in the holiday season.


HARBOURS
Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Central Nova):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. In view of the importance of the ferry service to the provinces of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, can the minister advise if an agreement has now been reached between the federal government and the government of Nova Scotia regarding improvements to the ferry terminal at Caribou, Nova Scotia?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Such an agreement has been reached, Mr. Speaker. I personally would be very glad to release the details of the agreement, but I would like to first consult the government of Nova Scotia to see if they have any objection.
I can assure the House that agreement has been reached.




Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In light of the fact that the appropriation for Canada's foreign aid was underspent by over $100 million last year, the largest gap between allocation and disbursement in three years, can the minister assure the House, or indicate an intention, that the new estimate of $363 million for foreign aid will actually be expended, if approved by Parliament, for the purpose for which it is voted?
[Mr. McCleave.l


Mitchell William Sharp: I regret to say I cannot give this undertaking. I do not think the hon. member should press me. I think it is good policy for Canada to give the recipient underdeveloped countries an opportunity of deciding when they would like to have the money spent. Some countries insist that it be spent within the appropriation year, and therefore the underdeveloped country rushes into a project just to spend the money. We do not follow that policy; our moneys are available for spending at any time once committed.


REGIONAL ECONOMIC EXPANSION
Mr. A. C. Cadieu (Meadow Lake):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion. Now that the minister has accepted two points in the Meadow Lake constituency for economic development and expansion, will he include the whole constituency because many other points are in dire need of works programs and development?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member's question is a form of representation. He has to assume that the minister has noted it. Perhaps the hon. member would ask a supplementary question tomorrow: we are running short of time.


AIR TRANSPORT
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. In view of the growing concern by air pilots about sabotage and hijacking, to the point that they are now considering a one-day international strike, what steps has the Canadian government taken recently to allay the fears of pilots with regard to hijacking and sabotage?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I think the House would agree that it is extremely difficult to allay such fears in total. As the Secretary of State for External Affairs and I have indicated on a number of occasions, Canada is quite prepared to participate in any international or even smaller group discussions on how best to resolve this admitted problem.
March 11, 1970


IMPOSITION OF EXPORT QUOTAS
John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In order to comply with the United States government's ruling on Canadian oil imports into that country, is it the intention of the government of Canada to impose export quotas on the oil industry?


Mitchell William Sharp: No, Mr. Speaker. No such request has been made to us.


AIR TRANSPORT
John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. In view of the fact that interventions were filed before the Canadian Transport Commission by the Ontario government, Nordair and other associations over the application by TransAir for two new east-west air routes with access to Toronto, and the fact that no public hearings were held by the Canadian Transport Commission before the decision was made, will the minister say whether he will immediately use his influence in the cabinet to stay this decision and give those who have intervened an opportunity to make representations?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, a decision as to whether to hold public hearings, as the hon. member knows, is for the Canadian Transport Commission. After a decision is made, there is a means of appeal. Of course, everybody involved knows what that method is. When it comes to the question of what influence I will exert, it depends entirely on whether I receive an appeal.



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


[Stage Direction]
On the order: Government Orders:
Report stage of Bill C-137, an act respecting the use of national safety marks in relation to motor vehicles and to provide for safety standards for certain motor vehicles imported into or exported from Canada or sent or conveyed from one province to another, as reported (with amendments) from the Standing Committee on Transport and Communications-the Minister of Transport.
Motor Vehicle Safety
John Leroy Skoberg: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has been indicated in this House that the Standing Committees are most important in our parliamentary democracy. This bill has been called in the House today and the same time the Standing Committee on Transport and Communications is holding hearings on another department's estimates. I urge you, Mr. Speaker, to take into consideration the desirability of members of the transport committee being present in the House while this bill is being discussed today. Could not the business of the transport committee be postponed, in these circumstances?
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Speaking to the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I should like to express support of the suggestion which has been put forward. The bill on auto safety, which the House is to discuss, was considered in detail by the transport committee only a short time ago. Most committees do not meet on Wednesday afternoons, but the transport committee has a great deal of work to do and for some reason or another it has been decided that it should proceed today.
In my view, either the committee should cancel the arrangement to meet this afternoon, or the House should defer consideration of the bill before us, in order that members of the transport committee who are interested in the subject of auto safety may take part in the proceedings in this House and lend their wisdom to both matters which require their attention. They cannot be in two places at the same time.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, the point seems to be a reasonable one. As hon. members know, I have no control over the arrangements made for committee meetings. I understand, however, that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport will be intervening with the chairman of the transport committee to suggest that today's meeting be postponed until later this evening after the debate in this House has been concluded, or until another day.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: Since the difficulty seems to have been dealt with satisfactorily, the motion might be put to the House.


Donald Campbell Jamieson: that Bill C-137, respecting

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Motor Vehicle Safety
the use of national safety marks in relation to motor vehicles and to provide for safety standards for certain motor vehicles imported into or exported from Canada or sent or conveyed from one province to another, as reported (with amendments) from the Standing Committee on Transport and Communications, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Donald Campbell Jamieson: that the bill be read the third time and do pass.


Mr. Howe:: Does the minister intend to say anything on third reading of this bill?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to take the time of the House with words which would, essentially, amount to a repetition of what I have said before the committee and on second reading. But I am in the hands of the House.


William Marvin Howe: should like to say a few words on this legislation, Mr. Speaker, because I feel it is one of the most important pieces of legislation which has been brought forward this session. It has to do with car safety and it is not necessary for me to remind hon. members, or the general public, how important this subject is to every individual in Canada.
I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Canada Safety Council for the important work it is doing in advising people of ways and means by which they may be able to overcome the difficulties which arise in connection with motor safety and thus avoid many of the accidents which occur on our highways. I should like to refer to two or three of their pamphlets. One of these, put out in connection with a car check campaign, is headed, "Periodic car checks". The theme is: check your car, and check accidents. This is very important. After all, if a driver looks after his vehicle properly and has confidence in it, the chances of an accident are tremendously reduced.
The council has issued another bulletin on the subject of driver responsibility. Responsibility, it points out, goes hand in hand with power-and this includes horsepower. In this bulletin the council reminds motorists that they are responsible both morally and legally for the safe mechanical condition of their vehicles. This leaflet, like the last to which I referred, speaks for itself. After all, responsibility must rest upon an owner or driver of a car to see that it is in fit condition to be driven.

A third bulletin put out by the Safety Council has to do with the diagnosis of defects in automobiles. It advises motorists to go to garages and service stations in which they have confidence and where there is likelihood that the work necessary to maintain vehicles in fit condition for highway travel will be carried out effectively. Motorists are told:
It is most important to see and be seen, so motorists should check their lighting systems, windshield wipers and mirrors to ensure that they are working correctly.
Reading these bulletins will acquaint motorists with many other ways in which they can take their cars on to the highway with a minimum chance of an accident. In connection with this bill I should also like to pay tribute to a former member of the House, Mr. Heward Grafftey, the former member for Brome-Missisquoi.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


William Marvin Howe: There were occasions when he was almost jeered in this House for his persistence in keeping this subject before the attention of the government. I think he deserves the thanks and the support of all Canadians for the tremendous job he did in calling attention to the importance of car safety.
Over the years we have heard much-as well we should-about the need for research into the cause and eventual cure of cancer and heart disease. These are generally recognized as the No.l killers of our day and age. Often overlooked, however, is the fact that the leading cause of death for persons in the age group 1-46 years is the traffic accident. I suggest that the money made available for research into the causes and prevention of traffic accidents is peanuts when compared with the amount made available for research into health problems. A greater effort must be made in the direction of auto safety because, unknown to most people, the lack of it has become one of the biggest social problems of our time.
Last Friday a debate took place in this House in connection with the social problems which have arisen because the centres of our cities are jammed with vast numbers of automobiles. Eventually, of course, it may be necessary to prevent private cars entering downtown areas and mass transit systems will be provided along modem lines to move people rapidly, at the same time eliminating a major cause of air pollution. But it would be
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wrong to blame auto manufacturers and governments alone. I certainly do not believe that the auto of today is safe, but according to the Canadian Safety Council, 90 per cent of all accidents result from human failure. Of the 8 per cent attributable to mechanical failure, a goodly proportion results from the lack of proper maintenance.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)
While the government has a great responsibility for highway safety research and education, a burden undoubtedly rests on the road user. The specifications for the national safety standards as set down in Hansard for January 29 include provisions for seat-belts. I agree wholeheartedly with putting teeth into the law as far as it concerns automobile manufacturers, importers and distributors. To sell a car without such equipment, or with inferior equipment, is criminal. If attempting to take one's life is still adjudged a criminal offence, I venture to suggest that to drive without a safety belt is an elaborate attempt at suicide and should also be viewed just as seriously. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the non-use of seat-belts probably contributes as much to the death and injury of other persons as it does to the non-user. A seat-belt limits mobility, and limited mobility is one certain way of preventing motorists turning around to carry on a conversation with the back seat driver, or an irate parent turning to admonish the noisy children in the back seat.
The January, 1970, edition of Safety Canada, published by the Canadian Safety Council, reports:
An extensive safety belt survey conducted by the Alberta Safety Council from Sept. 27 to Oct. 18, 1969, disclosed that only 18.4 per cent of 43,057 drivers and passengers interviewed were wearing the restraining devices.
Volunteers interviewed drivers and passengers at service stations and car washes on four successive Saturdays in 29 towns and cities.
The survey was accompanied by a major publicity campaign involving the press, radio, TV, distribution of restaurant place-mats and the handing out of pamphlets to motorists by volunteers.
Of those interviewed, two-thirds had safety belts available, of whom 27 per cent of the drivers and 28 per cent of the passengers had them buckled up.
On the highways, 42 per cent of drivers and passengers with safety belts available were wearing them. But this figure dropped to only 19 per cent in urban areas.
The low urban use of safety belts flies in the face of facts showing that most traffic fatalities take place within a 25 mile radius of the victims' homes and at speeds of less than 40 mph.
We have talked in this debate and in the committee of introducing uniquely Canadian
Motor Vehicle Safety
standards and that we should not ape the standards of the United States. I could not agree more. The Canadian market is of such a size in terms of cars sold and dollars transacted that provision should be made for Canadian standards which would meet the conditions of our roads and our weather and the acceptance of our people. After all, we have highway and weather conditions in Canada that are not found in too many other places in the world.
We discussed in committee the necessity for a regular monthly check of mufflers as a result of the salt and sand that is used on our highways to melt the snow. For a starter I would suggest that one safety requirement for Canadian automobiles be that it would be impossible to start a car without first securing the seat-belt. I believe there has been some practical research into this idea, and while we may not like the taste of it, this sort of medicine is good for us.
The minister stated on January 29:
Here, if I may be permitted, I should like to pay tribute to the provincial ministers concerned who have shown at least as much interest in this matter as the federal government. They have also cooperated with us in every way-as the debate revealed and the subsequent questioning in committee-in order to ensure the maximum amount of co-operation between the two levels of government, because the federal effort alone would not be sufficient to make a significant improvement.
The federal-provincial discussions to which I have referred led to my meeting with the provincial ministers on September 4, 1969, when it was agreed that the federal government should assume responsibility for the safety standards for new motor vehicles manufactured in Canada and for motor vehicles imported into Canada. At this time it was also agreed that the provinces, under existing legislation, would undertake to ensure the safety of vehicles in use as well as the safety of replacement and additional parts for motor vehicles.
There apparently was unanimous agreement that at the federal level we could make the biggest impact on the problem by dealing with the new car manufacturer to ensure that as cars leave the factory they are in top condition. It was also agreed that we would work closely with the provinces to ensure, wherever necessary, that they would introduce the kind of legislation which would put their needs on all fours with ours in terms of replacement parts. I do not think this is acceptable. The provinces do not have existing regulations to complement this act and I see here no guarantee that they will enact legislation to protect the innocent purchaser of a car bearing the national safety

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mark but which has passed hands once or several times since earning this seal of approval.
It was said the other day during the debate-and I agree with it-that this act should be broadened to the extent that it would cover the resale of cars in our provinces. There is sufficient federal legislation covering the movement of fish, grain and meat, and it would be common sense to include the auto in like legislation. Fish, grain and meat are movable, as is the auto. The big difference seems to be that while the first three items are consumed, the last named consumes.
I think provinces have generally lagged behind in setting standards for performance achievement and the maintenance of cars on their roads. However, I do feel that our own province of Ontario has set some fairly high standards in respect of the resale of cars and safety checks on highways. It would appear that the city of Vancouver, and I believe the city of Victoria, have their own motor vehicle testing stations. These cities should be commended. Such stations should be located all over the country.
As outlined in this bill, there will be heavy penalties for misuse of the national safety mark on motor vehicles. There should be equally heavy penalties for misrepresentation of this safety mark by those dealers who will use it as a selling aid for cars that should long ago have been conveyed to the scrap yard. I hope the government will take steps in respect of an education and information program related to the use of the national safety mark and national safety standards. Perhaps this could be undertaken by a branch of Information Canada.
In this connection, in respect of the participation of provinces there was an article in the news the other day which indicated that our percentage of accidents per capita was higher than in a great many countries of the world, particularly the United States. The article went on to indicate that one of the reasons might be the tremendous educational program they have had in the United States to teach young people how to properly control the horses under the hood. I feel our provincial governments are taking this matter into consideration.
As I said in my opening remarks, the motor car and driving the motor car has become such an essential and important part of every person's life that it ranks with almost any phase of our educational program in high

school, and it should be taught in high school. Proper driving methods and procedures should be taught along with academic subjects. In the city of Kitchener some years ago they adopted an extended program in their high schools. It is rather significant to note that a tremendous drop in car accidents in that community occurred as a result of this educational program.
The meaning of the national safety code should be spelled out very carefully to all road users. The limitations of the national standards should also be made very clear. At the same time, every effort must be made to intensify educational programs on proper road and automobile use. We must work to strengthen this bill by regular report on and examination of the regulations. One half of the individuals driving today have been or will be involved in injury-causing accidents this year in Canada, and we can expect some 5,000 deaths on our roads and nearly 200,000 injuries. These are the stakes. Let us hope that with the enactment of this legislation the stakes will favour the Canadian motorist.
e (4:00 p.m.)


Mr. Barry Mather (Surrey):: Mr. Speaker, while I also do not wish to unduly delay the passage of this legislation, which in my view is very long overdue and really does not go far enough, I do wish to put something on the record in respect of the views of my party on this very important subject. There are some issues which cut across all party lines, and I think this is one.
Car safety and traffic safety in Canada involve the lives and well-being of all our people. It is surely a very important fact that for several years now 100 Canadians have been killed every seven days on our streets or highways as a result of traffic accidents. At the same time, some 3,000 others have been variously injured either in a minor fashion or so severely that many of them might as well have died. In addition to that, as a people we spend something in the order of $1 billion a year to protect ourselves from this traffic "unsafety" situation. This includes car insurance payments.
So far as the Canada motor vehicle safety standards bill goes, it at least is a start in the right direction. It's terms which will be incorporated through order in council, I believe, will follow exactly the provisions developed in the same area in the United States. These standards which we are taking from the United States were won over a period of
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years from the heel-dragging motor vehicle industry in the United States. They are not altogether adequate for Canada. Indeed, they are not altogether adequate in the United States. They do not have within them, for example, provision for such Canadian requirements as what I would consider to be a Canadian rear-window defroster and a common bumper height standard. There are other areas such as tire safety. I do not think these things are properly spelled out in the United States legislation which we are now picking up. We also feel there is a lack of proper car safety standards in respect of exhaust pollution.
Before the transportation committee we proposed several amendments along the lines I have indicated which we felt were necessary. We were told, and I agree, that the legislation, particularly at the committee level, is largely a vehicle by which to incorporate the beginning of safety regulations. The regulations themselves will be fitted into the vehicle. We hope we will get more and more adequate regulations as time goes on. I must compliment the minister because he accepted in general terms one or two amendments put forward at the committee stage which I think are useful.
I should like to say just a word or two in order to underline one or two other aspects which in my opinion are related very closely to the motor vehicle traffic situation. One of these is car insurance. We feel that the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs should work more closely with the Department of Transport in reviewing the present car insurance situation in Canada. On every dollar Canadians spend on car insurance they recover from car insurance premiums only about 65 cents or 70 cents. As I said, I think this is a matter in which the Department of Consumer Affairs and the Department of Transport could interest themselves.
Although the campaign for safer cars in recent years in North America has resulted in some reform in respect of some very dangerous ingredients, the auto makers seem to have designed their vehicles with a view to making an additional profit from the collision of these vehicles. Perhaps the car manufacturers took a cynical attitude in respect of the car safety enthusiasts when the car safety enthusiasts suggested there was a need for collapsible front ends for the protection of the riders. They have built collapsible front ends and rear ends. They have done this with a vengeance. They have added a bit of engineering
Motor Vehicle Safety
apparently to ensure that whatever the front end hits will also suffer the maximum possible damage. If another car happens to be hit, the repair bills from the collision will certainly spurt upward, as hon. members and many other citizens of the country can testify.
Bumpers which once performed a protective function for the vehicle are now eyecatching decorations with built-in lights, grilles, knobs, vertical and horizontal knives of assorted kinds and sizes, and sharp snouts, all guaranteed in the event of collision to do three things: first, send the car to the repair shop for expensive replacements; second, ensure that whatever is hit will be carved into appropriate designs thus forcing the owner to undertake costly repairs and, third, improve economics for the manufacturer of spare parts.
Testimony taken during the U.S. Senate subcommittee hearings on anti-trust and monopoly showed that from 1965 to mid-1969 new car prices for popular Ford and Chevrolet models rose by 10 per cent and for Plymouth models by 11 per cent. During the same period the price of replacement parts for Ford cars rose by 34.6 per cent, for Chevrolet cars by 19.9 per cent and for Plymouth cars by 22.5 per cent. Very briefly, this means that if a car which sells for $3,500 were rebuilt from spare parts, it would cost $15,000 for parts and labour.
Various tests have been conducted to illustrate the point I have been trying to make about the vulnerability of modern cars. This is not the time to go very deeply into this question. However, one test was made at five miles an hour, which is slower than the speed at which a Member of Parliament walks. The car was driven into a barrier. It resulted in damage in the amount of $200. The cars then backed into the same barrier at the same slow speed, and the damage averaged $214 in each case.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to conclude by urging the Minister of Transport (Mr. Jamieson) to follow the example of the Secretary of Transport in the United States in respect of sending out information. This U.S. minister is extremely active in this regard. I receive from his office no less than three separate releases each week dealing with what is being done by his department in matters which are important to life and death. I am not one to be easily enthused about things, but in my opinion the United States, finally, is really stepping up its safety program.

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I have received releases from the United States department concerning such things as tire standards, recall of faulty tires, inflammable materials used in the interior of cars, air pollution from exhaust systems, brake testing and recalls. They are particularly concerned about compliance with the requirements of car safety legislation. Public meetings are held by the department of transport at which consumers, dealers and others are encouraged to state their views on any matter of car safety.
Finally, as I say, there are three things involved in traffic safety-the car, the car driver and the road. This measure deals specifically with the vehicle. To the extent that this bill is on the road, we want to be sure it will continue in the right direction in respect of ensuring maximum traffic safety. [DOT] (4:10 p.m.)


William Skoreyko: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to participate in this debate, but since we are on the final stages of passage of the bill I thought I would put a few remarks on the record. I listened with some degree of interest to the last speaker, and I suggest to him that an old, gas washing machine motor and a tub with wheels on it would probably give him the kind of vehicle for which he is asking.
First of all, when we are dealing with this matter we must try to determine what the legislation will do to take care of existing problems in transportation in so far as automobiles are concerned, and discuss at some length some of the real hazards in the industry. The main hazards in automobiles are, first of all, horsepower and, second, speed. It seems to be a trend of the automobile manufacturers to go for bigger, faster and more powerful automobiles.
I suggest it is not at all difficult today to build a motor with an engine, a transmission and a differential that will perform as efficiently as the engines in today's automobiles, which will produce all the horsepower required under any circumstances and yet be limited to the road speeds that are permitted in Canada and the United States. I see very little sense in selling a Dodge Dart that will do 120 miles an hour to a 19 year old boy who is somewhat impressed with the appearance of the automobile but is certainly more impressed with its horsepower and the speed he can get out of the car. I say there is an inconsistency in our laws if we mark our highways, as is the case in Ontario, indicating

60-mile speed limit and then produce cars the main selling feature of which is the horsepower they can produce, when the speed which they can attain on our highways is in fact illegal.
A number of factors must be recognized when you analyse the general construction of an automobile, what it is composed of and what it is intended to do. When we speak about hazards and look at statistics, we find that a large number of the accidents that happen on our highways almost daily are caused by the failure of the operator to obey laws and signals or to recognize road conditions. But in many cases the accident is due to the failure of a component of the automobile. I suggest that this bill should impose on the manufacturers conditions that must be adhered to before the automobile can be put on the market.
One of the essentials of any automobile is a dual braking system. The braking system of automobiles should be manufactured to extremely rigid standards to assure the purchaser that, first of all, it will give the maximum braking effect and, second, that any wheel will operate independently of the others. Again, the national safety mark or the label that will be put on an automobile is really meaningless unless quality control is a rigid aspect of company policy. I think no government agency can guarantee the competence of an automobile within minutes of its leaving the dealer's showroom; therefore, quality control is essential.
The second important consideration which should be given by the government to the problems that we have on our highways is that money be spent on compulsory driving schools for any driver who was involved in an accident of any seriousness at all. Attendance at these schools must be compulsory.
Automatic dimming devices should be compulsory in all vehicles. I do not think it would be too difficult for manufacturers to consider a form of warning signal in the event of the failure of any component that could impede the safe operation of the vehicle. We should consider regulating a safety level for standard equipment such as automobiles tires. Not too long ago two-ply tires were standard equipment. Today there is a change in some areas, but two-ply tires are still available on the market. The standard should be the highest available grade of tire on the market, and the use of such tires should be compulsory. There is today on the market a first grade, second grade and third grade tire, and in most chain
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or department stores there are unbranded tires or what we refer to sometimes as factory rejects. These tires usually sell at less than one-third of the price of first grade tires. The use of such tires should be absolutely prohibited.
I have the privilege of coming from the city of Edmonton where in the last year compulsory car check legislation was brought in. Every automobile in the province of Alberta within certain areas had to be passed at a car check centre. First of all, tests were made on the surface of the automobile only. The finding of the tests was certainly not conclusive and could not prove whether or not the automobile was roadworthy. The argument that so many people used was that the job was not done by experts and therefore was not successful. I received a number of letters from people who complained bitterly because they had been requested on the first examination to make certain repairs to their automobiles. Indeed, my wife when she took her car in was requested to do repairs worth $65 to her car, but having done the repairs the car was not reinspected: she simply went back and told them the job had been done, following which they handed her a car test sticker for a $1 fee. This is why some of these programs fail. I commend the minister of transport in the province of Alberta for having had the foresight to discontinue this program.
Again I go back to the old argument that we must recognize the problem where it begins. It begins when the car leaves the factory. If the car has not gone through a rigid inspection procedure, if quality control has not been one of the conditions of the automobile company, there is no way in which we will get a truly safe automobile on the market.
Most American and Canadian cars are constructed to give the ultimate purchaser the maximum comfort, the maximum performance, the maximum eye appeal and, I hope, maximum protection against all the elements. 1 think the government would do well to provide, if necessary, assistance to manufacturers to further their studies into every aspect of motor vehicle safety and to enlarge their quality control departments.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)


Philip Bernard Rynard: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see what is being done about auto safety through the provisions of this bill. I am sure it is long overdue and needs further additions. But I
Motor Vehicle Safety
would like to remind the House of one fact, which is that no matter how careful you are, accidents will happen. Recently I had a problem driving a car with two master brake cylinders on it. One cylinder apparently was low in oil, and the seal on the other one was broken. One morning, backing out of the garage I went to put on the brakes and found I did not have any brakes. As a result, the car and I went into a snowbank and I had to get a wrecker to pull it out. If this had happened on the highway there could have been a disastrous accident. I do not know how such things can be avoided. It seems to me it may be necessary to have periodic check-ups for motor cars. But this car had gone 25,000 miles and had been serviced regularly. However, since the brakes appeared to be working, apparently they were not checked. This is something that happened to myself within the last two weeks.


William Skoreyko: If the hon. member would permit me, Mr. Speaker, may I say such a problem could be corrected simply by having hydraulic and mechanical brakes on the vehicle. That is the simple solution so far as the manufacturers are concerned.


Philip Bernard Rynard: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for bringing up this point because I used to drive a Hudson, now gone from the field, and it had hydraulic and mechanical brakes. But because this other car had two master cylinders, apparently the manufacturers thought one set of brakes was sufficient.
I now wish to deal with the question of the massive air pollution in our cities and on our highways caused by the motor car. Those of us who have driven in a large city at rush hour, taking an hour or an hour and a half to get out of the city, have seen the carbon monoxide pouring out of the motor vehicles, rising up into the air and polluting the atmosphere of the city. Many people think we are moving too slowly to control air pollution. This is one of the criticisms that I hear frequently. We know that the motor car is one of the prime causes of air pollution, particularly in urban areas-an estimated 60 per cent. One university professor has gone so far as to say that governments are hiding pollution data describing the extent and the hazards of pollution. All of us who have been in places frequented by buses and motor cars realize the amount of poisonous gases that they give off.

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Just a few days ago one well known Toronto medical man stated that 50 per cent of the diseases of mankind today can be traced directly or indirectly to air pollution. That is a frightening statement. And it must be considered in the context that fatal accidents, mainly automobile accidents-over 50,000 per year-are the greatest cause of death for those in the one year to 35 year age group. This shows that preventive medicine has pretty well halted the fatal effects of communicable diseases. Accidents have taken their place and, as I say, today they are the major cause of death for the one year to 35 year age group.
Hon. members are well aware of the number of motor car accidents which take place across Canada, over 150,000 per year. Today one bed out of every ten in our hospitals is taken up with an accident case, the majority of them being motor car accident cases. Leaving aside consideration of the suffering involved and the fatal tragedies that may occur, these accident cases are using up hospital beds that are sorely needed for medical and surgical cases. In addition there is the consideration that the federal and provincial governments are now paying for medicare. That means you and I. This is a pressing economic reason for doing something about the problem. That is not all, Mr. Speaker: I would remind you that many people who are involved in motor car accidents cannot return to work again-some are crippled for the rest of their lives; some are able to do only partial work. The economic loss is tremendous and far overshadows any cost of solving the problem.
Today I asked the Minister of Transport (Mr. Jamieson) a question about air pollution at Toronto International Airport, and I wish to thank him for the answer he gave. I was pleased to hear he is doing something about it and that within a few years jet planes will not be polluting the atmosphere. But I would point out to the minister that at Toronto International Airport, in my opinion you encounter far more pollution when you go downstairs to collect your baggage and move out on the ramp where the diesel buses and motor cars come to collect travellers. About two weeks ago I was out on that ramp. It was pretty bad that night because some charter planes had come in, apparently all nearly at the same time. There was such a crowd around that one could hardly move. Traffic was congested. One car had stopped completely and people were waiting for a wreck-

ing truck to pull it away. You never saw such a jam in your life. People could hardly breathe standing on that semi closed-in ramp. The pollution caused there was far greater than that caused by the jet planes.
I could see people coughing and wiping their eyes. It reminded me of the occasion about ten years ago when I was in Los Angeles. One morning when I came out to go to the airport on my way home, my eyes started streaming. They were smarting and smarting. I wondered what was the cause. It was the air pollution: fog and mild rain held it at ground level.
This pollution problem must be tackled. Cardiovascular and respiratory diseases are the worst problems being faced by the medical profession today. They are presenting a real challenge to the medical profession. In many cases they are caused by air pollution, and the solution of this pollution must be tackled no matter what the cost. Too often we are prone to forget about the toll taken by car accidents when those accidents do not involve us personally. The cost of all this involves the pocketbook of everybody in Canada. We had better waken up and realize that the burden of looking after the consequences of air pollution and car accidents can become too great.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)
I expect the minister to look at the Toronto International Airport and others that present the same problems. I suggest to him that it should be possible to bring in some type of transportation other than diesel. Surely buses using diesel could easily be replaced, probably by buses which are battery-driven or use a low-pollution gasoline product.


Mr. Lome Nysirom (Yorklon-Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to rise for a few moments to comment on the bill before us. The hon. member for Surrey (Mr. Mather) who has just participated in the debate, and the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Sko-berg) who has been working in the committee, have already said many things about the bill. I think the bill is going in the right direction but, typical of many things we do in Parliament, it does not go far enough or quickly enough. Once again, we seem to be hesitating.
As one hon. member said, now that we have the car on the road we must get it out of trouble. We must look ahead at many of the problems that will face us in the whole
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Mr. Charles H. Thomas (Moncton):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks on Bill C-137 will be very brief because the bill has already been discussed in committee for three or four days; in fact, it has been so thoroughly discussed that there are approximately 250 pages of evidence. Most of the points have been raised and have been answered by the minister and his officials. I think everyone agrees that the principle of the bill is good, that everything that can possibly be done to make a vehicle safer should be done. I appreciate the minister's desire to have the bill passed in time to have some of these provisions effective in the current year.
I do not want to delay passage of the bill. However, there are one or two questions I would like the minister to answer in his final

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remarks. No bill is perfect in its draft stage. There were a couple of serious flaws in the bill as originally drafted. After spending two or three days studying the bill, I felt I was barking up the wrong tree and there was something wrong with me, but eventually the minister and his officials recognized and corrected these defects. I am happy about this because there were serious flaws in the original draft of the bill.
The bill deals primarily with the importation of vehicles from the United States. The main criticism that we in the opposition had to the bill was that the penalties provided were not stiff enough. We discussed at length the fact that the standards were not laid down or specified in the bill. I can appreciate the reason for that. It might be better to pass the legislation first, then let the minister promulgate the safety standards. He supplied us with a list of 29 basic regulations.
I remind the minister of the commitment he made in committee. I asked him if, after the bill was passed, he would entertain representations from the committee or individual Members of Parliament as to new regulations that should be promulgated. The minister assured us that he would be very happy to listen to representations. He indicated that if he thought they were serious and worth while, he would implement them. I remind the minister of this commitment. I hope he will keep the commitment in mind when the time comes to redraft the bill and to make changes.
Some of the standards which we felt were not rigid enough have already been mentioned. One such standard concerns bumpers. Most people will agree the bumper on the present-day car is nothing but an ornament. It is a piece of chrome put on the car for appearance. It has no function with regard to safety. It is a piece of ornamentation. As the previous speaker mentioned, new types of bumper are being developed. I hope the minister and his department will consider the feasibility of these new types of bumper becoming standard equipment. There is also the matter of exhaust emission and pollution control. The minister indicated these would be taken into consideration.
I also suggest that the braking standards are not rigid enough. I was surprised to find that some of the higher powered cars, those with the most horsepower, have the lowest ratio of horsepower to braking area. This is ridiculous and should be checked into with

the manufacturers. Cars are being manufactured with higher horsepower, yet they are still using the conventional old-style brakes. This area should be studied very thoroughly by the department when the regulations are being promulgated.
I wish to make one more suggestion. I am still not happy about the provisions of compensation for seized vehicles. One of the things that bothered us in committee was that the original bill could conceivably give inspectors the power to seize a private vehicle. This was corrected when the amendment was made to clause 13. As the bill now stands, vehicles can be seized from the premises of a dealer. The only compensation the dealer can receive is under clause 14 (2), which states that the provisions of section 64 (a) of the Fisheries Act will apply to the new act. It seems there could be quite a lapse of time here. If vehicles are seized from a dealer under the provisions of the Fisheries Act, I understand there could be a lapse of up to 90 days. A vehicle could be held that long. The vehicle could then be seized, and the only provision under section 64 (a) of the Fisheries Act is that the owner is entitled to his equity in that vehicle. However, if the vehicle is sold by public sale and only realizes half its value, as I understand the act the owner would be entitled to only the proceeds of the sale. Possibly the minister could explain that later.
It can be said that this is a matter between the manufacturer and the dealer, that if the manufacturer values the dealer's franchise he will compensate the dealer for the loss of those vehicles. I feel there should be something in the bill to make the sanctions a little stronger against the manufacturer. If a dealer has in his showroom 12 vehicles that are seized and tied up for a period of 60 to 90 days, vehicles which have probably been financed under wholesale replacement, what does the dealer do for replacements in order to stay in business?
I hope the minister will answer these questions when he closes the debate. I support the early passage of the bill, although I still maintain it does not go far enough. I think it will give the minister a vehicle to bring into force effective regulations for vehicle safety.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I would like to briefly repeat some of the proposals which were brought forward in committee. I appreciate that this debate may be a vehicle to bring to the attention of the public automobile safety standards, At the
March 11, 1970

same time, I emphasize to the minister the urgency of spending money on research and development in this field. In my opinion too little is being done in Canada in the way of research and development in the field of pollution. We talk a good fight, but when it comes to doing the research that is meaningful, we fall by the wayside and have to depend on what has been done in other countries.
We had quite a discussion in committee on the warranties of automobiles being manufactured at the present time. It was suggested that the warranty should be included in a safety bill such as is now before us. It was suggested by the minister that warranties come within the jurisdiction of the individual manufacturer, and probably the legal institutions if the warranty is not honoured.
Each new car has an average of 25 to 40 defects which may or may not be covered by warranty. If it is necessary to hire a lawyer to bring about a correction of these defects, this is an added cost to the purchaser and is reflected directly in so far as consumer costs are concerned. I am sure the minister will study some of the matters which were studied by the committee. If he looks at the Minutes of Proceedings of our hearings he will appreciate that the warranty situation cannot be left to the whim of the manufacturer and the courts of this land.
There is another point which I feel needs clarification. I refer to page 1133 of the committee proceedings. I understand the minister has a thirtieth proposal in so far as the list of motor vehicle safety standards is concerned. It is with regard to the impairment of health to the individual. If the transcript is read, it will be seen that what is really involved is the impairment of health. When we read the transcript, we see just what the committee had in mind. I wonder whether this bill goes far enough, or as far as the committee thought it would go, in the direction of pollution control. On page 33 of the eleventh report of the committee we see a reply given to a question by a member. Protection against impairment of health was afforded, according to the witness, by providing for the control of motor vehicle exhausts. The witness said the definition of safety standards would also permit regulations to be made limiting noise emission from new motor vehicles with a view to protecting persons against impairment of health.
Motor Vehicle Safety
e (4:50 p.m.)
I hope the minister is not simply talking about the elimination or reduction of noise when he refers to pollution in this field. I am sure all of us were thinking of pollution in a much wider sense. When I look at the standards set in the Guide to Traffic Safety, I find they deal with pollution generally. I quote: With an ever-increasing vehicle population and resultant traffic density, the toxic gases emitted from engines assume more importance. Under certain circumstances some constituents of vehicle exhaust may react to form irritating smogs. Also, individual pollutants such as carbon monoxide may be of concern to drivers in dense traffic-
I emphasize, once again, that what concerns us is pollution-pollution of the kind with which everyone in the country from coast to coast is concerned at the present time. As we look further into the question of pollution by motor vehicles, we find it has reached a point which has made it necessary for a number of countries to lay down increasingly stringent legislation designed to reduce it or eliminate it altogether. In terms of the bill we are now considering, I suggest Canada has fallen behind by failing to provide sufficiently stringent regulations so far as pollution is concerned, and this at a time when all the developed countries, by and large, are introducing increasingly stringent measures to deal with it. In my opinion, the provisions contained in this measure as they affect restrictions which will exist in the future, are not sufficient.
An article from the Petroleum Press Service states that the main pollutants associated with gasoline engines are carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides. According to the writer, it is estimated that motor vehicles account for at least 60 per cent of the air pollution in the United States and as much as 85 per cent in some urban areas. The time has long passed when we could concern ourselves mainly with the pollution of our water resources and not be equally concerned about the pollution of land, air and sea as an entirety. It is high time Canada put stringent controls into effect which would oblige all manufacturers of gasoline engines to meet certain anti-pollution standards. This could be done in Canada; it is already being done in California.
The minister suggested to us that many of the ideas put forward in this area are difficult for the federal government to handle because of the jurisdictional problem as between the federal government and the provinces. I will refer directly to one such situation. The


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to take up a great deal of the time of the House to recapitulate, as it were, many of the things I said in connection with this legislation both on second reading and in the committee. I think, however, it is fitting that I express my thanks to members of the House,
March 11, 1970

and most particularly to members of the Transport and Communications Committee, for their co-operation and for the thorough way in which they dealt with this bill. As was pointed out this afternoon by the hon. member for Moncton (Mr. Thomas) and the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Skoberg)- or is it Moose Jaw-Skoberg?-we achieved in the committee advantages and benefits through the amendments I was very happy to accept. I think this was a good demonstration of how the committees system can work. I do not propose to go over all the points that have been raised this afternoon because, as I have said, it would take a great deal of time. I believe that the hon. members concerned have most of the answers, at least to the extent that I am able to give them.
With regard to the question of seizure raised by the hon. member for Moncton, he does know of the problems of limitation in that regard. Perhaps he might be satisfied if I indicated to him that I do recognize, as I do in respect of some of the other points he raised in the committee, that there is validity in what he said. This involves a matter, again, of the extent of our authority and competence. If experience shows we can do something to improve the situation, then we certainly will do so. I might say, too, that I think it is our intention to avoid to the maximum extent possible the likely seizure in the manner which he outlined and which would cause this problem.
In other words this act, when it becomes law, will be most effective if indeed we prevent cars which have discrepancies of one kind or another from reaching the point where they are in the hands of purchasers. It will only be in terms of a latent fault that this would result. I think we will be performing best if indeed the problem that the hon. member for Moncton outlined does not occur, because this will indicate that we have caught the deficiencies before they have reached that point.
Throughout this debate I think there have been one or two what I might describe as general inconsistencies. I do not say that in any critical sense. I think I ought to point this out for the record. One has to do with some of the matters raised by the hon. member for Moose Jaw about warranties and the obligation on the part of manufacturers to pay for such repairs or replacements as may be necessary. I do not believe it can be argued that these are matters falling within the ambit of this bill which is related to auto
Motor Vehicle Safety
safety. As I explained in committee, while I agree wholeheartedly that the user or purchaser of an automobile should not be penalized for something over which he has no control, I suggest to the hon. member and to the House that in fact this is a contractual relationship between the purchaser and the supplier which is only indirectly related to safety, and that therefore it does indeed come under provincial jurisdiction.
At least, this is the best advice we have been able to obtain, and it has been confirmed in a number of quarters. I mentioned that matter in particular because it leads me to the second point on which there has been major inconsistency in this debate. It has to do with those matters which are of federal jurisdiction entirely and those which fall within the responsibility of the provinces.
This legislation will not be as effective as I and all hon. members would want it to be unless we have the full co-operation of the provinces. I emphasize again that our jurisdiction and our authority extends only to new vehicles, only to the manufactured item as it comes from the plant. The instant it is sold, it becomes an object which for all practical purposes is under provincial jurisdiction.
Quite a few members, while pointing out very valid problems in terms of auto safety, I think failed to make a distinction and failed to recognize, to the extent that is necessary, the limitations upon federal power. Above all, the necessity for co-operation with the provinces is a recognition of this from the outset. This bill, when it becomes law, will not really do its job unless there is companion legislation in the provinces which is on all fours with the federal legislation. So there have been to date two separate federal-provincial conferences involving the ministers responsible in each of the ten provinces and myself. This has been an excellent example of federal-provincial co-operation.
There has been widespread agreement and recognition of the need for supplemental legislation by the provinces for such a thing, for example, as was touched on this afternoon-that is, tire safety and tire standards. It will not do very much good if the federal government says that tires on brand new vehicles have to be of such-and-such a standard, and the replacement tires purchased in provinces are not of the same standard. In this case the provinces will, I am sure, apply the same standards on replacement tires as we set up for new tires. I hope we can extend that principle to a wide range of replacement

March 11, 1970
Motor Vehicle Safety
parts so the provinces will be able to help us, and we them, in what is after all a common problem to all of us.
There has been some mention today of pollution. The hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Rynard), who I know has a particular interest in the matter, was the primary person to mention it. When this bill was originally drafted, it was strictly an auto safety bill in the sense of protecting life and limb. We made a more exhaustive study of our regulatory powers and came to the conclusion that we could, in fact, regulate and define auto safety as having to do also with the preservation of health. It was for this reason I expanded the bill to include exhaust systems. As the House will know, I have indicated on earlier occasions that we propose to be as stringent as we possibly can in this regard. There is a good deal that can be done now, even, in terms of the devices that are to be employed.
As the House will know, in some states of the United States, and in fact in some provinces in Canada, regulations are either now in place or are proposed which will enhance greatly improved exhaust systems. This, I may say, is only a partial answer because some of the devices, while removing some of the noxious substances, actually create others which are at least as harmful and perhaps even more so because they are both invisible to and undetectable by the average person.
In our research and development section we must attempt, to the maximum extent that we can, to devise new forms of combustion fuels and, perhaps, better combustion engines. I have had considerable discussion wih my counterparts in the United States on this question, and I am pleased to say that our level of co-operation is very high. As the hon. member for Surrey (Mr. Mather) mentioned earlier, the United States government and the United States people are very much seized of this and they are moving ahead certainly as fast as we are, if not faster.
So we have at the moment what amounts to a tacit understanding, which I hope will eventually evolve into a formal agreement, that we will exchange information and work together, because whatever the merits may be of continentalism in other respects having to do with energy policies and the like, there is no question that the Canadian interest is obviously served best by continentalism in terms of aulo and highway safety and related matters.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
It might be interesting to this House if I were to say on a remotely related subject -that of air pollution from aircraft, to which the hon. member for Simcoe North referred today-that of course it is rather pointless for the Canadian government to move in this field unless there is companion action in the United States, because aircraft move back and forth across the border constantly. It is my considered view that in so far as the continent is concerned, we will make very significant improvements in this field in a relatively short time.
What will prove to be more difficult-and I am already attempting to do something in this area-will be to arrive at agreement internationally in respect of flights coming in from overseas across the Atlantic and the Pacific where there is not the same rapport, closeness or liaison as there is with the United States. Happily, it would seem that there is now this new awareness of the real danger of pollution. I hope we can extend this liaison to the international community as well.
These are just some of the matters which have been raised. I would differentiate between the problems in respect of automobiles which are wholly related to safety and those which are only indirectly related or not related to it at all. I do not say this in any critical sense, but I might point out that there was some at least superficial difference of opinion between the hon. member for Surrey and the hon. member for Moose Jaw.
The hon. member for Moose Jaw in effect said, "Let us go out on our own and create an all-Canadian car." I do not wish to overstate the case but I believe he was suggesting that we do the thing on our own. The implication is that in some way or another the great majority of United States cars are inferior. On the other hand, the hon. member for Surrey has been castigating us in his mild fashion for not going ahead as fast as the Americans. I suggest there is some inconsistency here; there are two points of view. However, I know that both gentlemen are on all fours in respect of their desire to get the best bill possible.
The question of bumpers is of continual annoyance, I expect, to all hon. members who think it is not they but rather their wives who become involved in small scrapes.


An hon. Member:: You will receive a lot of letters on that.
IMr. Jamieson.]
March 11, 1970


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes. The fact of the matter is-


Stanley Howard Knowles: You
will need a new set of bumpers yourself, now.


Donald Campbell Jamieson: I don't need them. In any event, this is a matter which is not only a question of safety. There is also a cosmetic question involved. It seems that most of the low-damage items to which the hon. member referred are not those which cause bodily harm. They are usually more of a cosmetic nature. In that field the Department of Transport has a difficult time seeking to determine whether or not the emphasis should be on the safety features. The safety of life and limb concept might come under that department, while perhaps some of these other matters might more directly come under the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, or perhaps the two departments could co-operate on them. I have no problem in agreeing with the hon. member that something should be done about this problem.
From a research point of view we are learning about everything done by United States agencies. In fact, we are undertaking some studies on this ourselves. One can find many different types of argument on this question, even including the one which has a measure of validity-that in fact the collapsible or give-away bumper is an assist in highway safety. The fact that there is a breaking away means that the car is not so rigid that the parties inside will be hurt. This is only one of a score of new concepts. There are such things as the water bumper or the air bag for the interior of cars, which is designed to inflate inside upon impact so that the parties in a sense are surrounded by a cushion of air.
The hon. member who spoke at the beginning of the debate today referred to seat-belts and various harness arrangements. There is some disagreement on the efficacy of these in their present form. I do not think anyone would argue that they are not good when properly placed and when they are of the proper strength. Here again, our standards will enable us to test them constantly and to also ensure that as new developments come along in this field they can be implemented quickly.
I have one final comment. This is something I have tried to emphasize throughout. It is one Which, perhaps a little ironically in my judgment, throughout the debate and in the committee has not really obtained the amount of
Motor Vehicle Safety
consideration it deserves. I refer to the fact that an accident happens only because something goes wrong. In the opinion of all the authorities on the subject, including those within my highway safety branch, the No. 1 task is not to ensure that we have the safest of all vehicles, because no matter whether the driver has happened to have a drink or something, when an automobile accident occurs the No. 1 challenge in respect of highway safety today is to find out the cause of the accident, what causes it to happen.
This is where the real research is required. It is not simply a matter of the drunk or inebriated driver. There is the fact that 70 per cent of the accidents occur when a vehicle is travelling at a speed under 30 miles an hour, and the fact of the number of accidents which occur on straight pieces of highway at mid-day when there is only one person in the car. One must also consider the frame of mind of the driver who goes off the road under such circumstances.
While auto safety is unquestionably of enormous importance, the fact is that no matter how safe the car, we will continue to have a good deal of carnage on our highways unless we find an answer to the problem of the driver and the causes of accidents. Perhaps it is necessary to consider both the driver and the nature of our highways and ask ourselves whether the highways are being properly constructed. As the hon. member for Simcoe North mentioned, we have some of the finest highways in the world. Everybody says now we are out of the woods because, we have incredibly good roads, but this fact simply seems to amplify the number of accidents which occur. So the question is whether our highways are faultily designed in some way or another. These are some of the interesting challenges which we face.
Again I want to thank members for understanding the need for relative haste in getting the measure through the House. I hope it will start having its effect very soon. I hope we will hear from the automobile companies. I agree with the hon. member for Moose Jaw that their co-operation in this task is vital and that they have a responsibility to make known to the Canadian public what they are doing and what their intentions are with regard to compliance.
I do feel, however, that the appropriate time to ask the question is when the regulations are promulgated. Then I am sure they will not only be anxious but will be compelled to appear to indicate exactly what they
March 11. 1970
4692	COMMONS
Cape Breton Development Corporation Act feel about these regulations. Again may I extend my thanks to the House for what would appear to be its approval of what in many respects is a most historic piece of legislation.


Lorne Edmund Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, would the minister answer a question? He commented about safety bumpers and said that research is presently going on in a government department. Could the minister inform us whether we can expect regulations soon in respect of safety bumpers? Is he planning to bring in new regulation in this field?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to be specific, but I cannot answer by saying just how far this concept has advanced. I can simply say that if we come up with something we think is worth while, we will not be hesitant in bringing it forward at the earliest possible time.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



CAPE BRETON DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-138, to amend the Cape Breton Development Corporation Act, as reported (without amendment) from the Standing Committee on Regional Development.
George James McIlraith: that Bill C-138, to amend the Cape Breton Development Corporation Act, as reported (without amendment) from the Standing Committee on Regional Development, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
George James McIlraith: that the bill be read the third time and do pass.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?


Malcolm MacInnis: I have no intention of holding up the passage of this bill, Mr. Speaker,


but we were hopeful we would have a statement from the minister at this stage.


Mr. Martin P. O'Connell (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Regional Economic Expansion):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister I would be very pleased to inform the House again of the purpose of this amendment to the Cape Breton Development Corporation Act. I would like to begin by thanking the Standing Committee on Regional Development for the great dispatch with which it processed this bill through the committee and accepted it with some degree of unanimity and then reported it back to the House.
This bill is rather limited in its scope, although it is important. It does not change the structure of Devco, nor does it change its basic functions or basic purpose. It is intended to add to the financial powers of that corporation and to put it on a footing equivalent to that of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion with regard to special areas.
One financial capability was lacking in Devco's battery of financial tools. This was Devco's lack of power to guarantee loans which an industry might seek from the private sector in order to establish itself in Cape Breton Island where Devco operates. The corporation had already been granted the power to make loans, to give incentive grants and to take equity positions in industrial concerns which seek to locate in Cape Breton Island, in order to stimulate industrial development there and to diversify the economy of the island. But it did not have the power to guarantee loans which any corporation might secure from the private sector. That is an important financial instrument. Some industries are quite capable of making their own way without obtaining significant loans, grants or equity positions, but access to private capital markets would be facilitated for them if they had a guarantee of the repayment of the principal and interest from such a Crown corporation.
So the sole purpose of the bill is to give that power to the corporation, to give guarantees on the loans advanced by others to industries which wish to settle on the island. There is a limit to the guarantee that Devco might give. That limit is $100 million which covers both principal and interest. As I think hon. members know, Devco is authorized to make loans and grants and take equity positions up to the limit of $20 million. That $20
March 11, 1970

million ceiling is not affected by the proposed amendment. What this proposed legislation adds is a guarantee capability of $100 million. As I said, this puts Devco in the same position to exercise financial powers as the department itself in special areas, but it is the view of the department that it would be better if that power resided with Devco rather than be spread between Devco and the department. This would put the island in exactly the same position as other special areas so far as financial powers are concerned.
This is a straightforward amendment and an important one. It is designed to enhance the opportunities for the industrialization of Cape Breton Island. I will close my remarks by again thanking the committee for the expeditious way in which it brought this legislation back to the House.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?


Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton-The Sydneys):: Mr. Speaker, in line with the remarks of my colleague, the hon. member for Cape Breton-East Richmond (Mr. Maclnnis), I have no intention of holding up the passage of this bill. We feel that it may have some very beneficial effects on the economic future of Cape Breton Island. As the Parliamentary Secretary stated, the committee exercised great dispatch in reporting back to the House, I believe to the surprise of some members of the committee as well as the minister.
I say in conclusion that perhaps in the future the Parliamentary Secretary will introduce legislation of this type, in which case it will pass through the House much more quickly because of his capable manner and Irish eloquence, which puts him in a much better position than the minister.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Watch out.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



BROADCASTING OF DEBATES BY RADIO AND TELEVISION

[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from Monday, February 23, consideration of the motion of Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):
That the Standing Committee on Procedure and Organization, in consultation with Mr. Speaker, be
4693
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates
directed to study the question of radio and television broadcasting of the proceedings of the House and its Committees, including the legal, procedural and technical aspects thereof, and the question of arrangements made for reporters for the electronic media in the Parliament buildings.
John (Jack) Henry Horner: Mr. Speaker, in rising once again to conclude my speech in this debate I shall be as brief as possible in enunciating a number of reasons for my opposition to the introduction of television into the House of Commons. First of all, it has been said on more than one occasion that the same argument was advanced when Hansard was first proposed for a daily, written record of the debates in the House. It is now being said that the same arguments advanced against Hansard are now being advanced against the introduction of television into the House.
It seems to me that the two cases are not alike. Much goes on in the House that is not recorded in Hansard. Many conversations are carried on and a great deal of highly skilled lobbying goes on that is not recorded in Hansard. Many jokes and jests uttered in the House are not recorded in Hansard. Sometimes it must be difficult for the interpreters and the Hansard reporters, but it is a known fact that much goes on in the House that is not printed in Hansard.
If the proceedings in this House were televised, all this would be heard. A member rising to speak would either be speaking to an attentive audience or he would be speaking to empty chairs. This would not give a good impression to his constituents who might not know that the absent members-many of whom are to your right, Mr. Speaker-were at committee meetings or in a minister's office attempting to ferret out the reason for government interference in their constituencies.
Another reason against the introduction of television is that a member who may be making a good and logical speech might not know how to put it across. His delivery might be poor and he might be reading every word of his speech. This would appear on television, but it does not appear in Hansard.
9 (5:30 p.m.)
Years and years ago the rules of this House laid down that a member should not read his speech. That rule is still in effect. Why was it incorporated in our Standing Orders? It is because a Member of Parliament is sent here to represent the true feelings of his constitu-
March 11. 1970
4694	COMMONS
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates ents. He is supposed to know their thoughts, to be concerned with their problems. He is supposed to be able to speak from memory about these things and to tell how the application of a certain piece of legislation will affect his constituents, whether beneficially or otherwise.
A Member of Parliament is not supposed to pick up a speech written by somebody else, or even by himself, and read it. If television is introduced, each member will prepare his speech in advance. He will even have a tendency to act out the words of his speech. As I said previously when I had an opportunity to speak on this subject, a member will even pronounce words in a certain way to express the feeling that may exist in his riding about a piece of legislation, not because he feels that way about it but because he thinks his constituents believe he should feel that way.
If there is one thing I detest today, it is the widespread feeling about the phonyness of politicians. Too many people across Canada say, "He is just a politician. Does he really mean what he says, or is he acting out a part"? I know some hon. members could not be actors even if they tried, but others would sure love to try-and television in the House would encourage them. It would be detrimental to the logic of the arguments they present in this House on behalf of their constituents. For that reason alone, Hansard and television are two different things.
I have mentioned that television would show the number of empty seats in the chamber. If this afternoon's proceedings were televised, showing all the empty seats to your right, Mr. Speaker, people in western Canada would naturally assume that since there is no western minister in the House the government is not concerned with their problems. They would make a snap decision on the basis of television. I should also point out that once introduced in this chamber, the televising of our proceedings would likely continue forever. In my opinion, Members of Parliament should make their arguments coolly, logically, and in a rational manner, in accordance with their beliefs in the kind of Canada that they want.
Some mention has been made that television could be extended to the proceedings of our committees. Although it may surprise some hon. members who have listened to me on this subject, I believe that would make more sense. If I have time this afternoon, I


may deal with the question of television in our committees.
What would television in the House of Commons really mean?
It would mean televising its proceedings in their entirety from two o'clock in the afternoon until ten o'clock in the evening, and this would require practically a whole new network across Canada. What about the enormous cost of that? Has anybody thought about that? I know the Minister of Transport (Mr. Jamieson) has had a great deal of experience in the television field. Can you envisage the enormous cost of establishing a whole new network to hear politicians expound on the glories of their constituencies and on how they think legislation will affect their constituencies?
At the close of the last session of Parliament, last July, the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) said, "We have to get these bums out of here. They are using the House of Commons as a soap-box to spread their ideas all across Canada." Mr. Speaker, if we had television in the House of Commons the bums might want to hang around a lot longer, at least some of those who profess to be good actors on television, and the Prime Minister would have much more difficulty getting legislation passed.
But let us examine the matter a little further. Who is going to watch the televised proceedings? Who has time? In my opinion, only those who have retired, who are over 65 years of age, and instead of watching a movie on a particular they may want to watch the House of Commons for an hour or two. But anybody engaged in earning a living does not have time to sit down and watch the House of Commons on television. On occasion someone who is ill at home, or a man who is babysitting while his wife is at the dentist, may turn on the television set for a half hour or so. Such casual viewers do not understand the working of Parliament. They do not know why those seats opposite are empty, why somebody down in the corner is talking to a friend instead of listening to me, and why somebody else is walking out of the House. As a result, they will make incorrect interpretations of the situation.
The cost of a completely new television network would be practically prohibitive for any sane government. There is some question of whether the present government is sane or not, but let us give its members the benefit of the doubt.
March 11. 1970	COMMONS


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Thank you very much!


John (Jack) Henry Horner: Let us say they are sane. If so, they will see the prohibitive cost involved. But there are those who advance, as an alternative, the televising of our proceedings for a two-hour period, covering motions, orders of the day and part or all of the question period. What would happen in the case of motions, Mr. Speaker? In recent years we have had five political parties represented in this House. Now there are four. On motions a minister gets up and makes a statement. I am one who has complained that ministers do not make enough statements on motions, that they make too many outside the House on television. But if television is introduced here, will that prompt them to make more statements on motions? For example, let us say a minister has a statement to make on the reorganization of his department and he makes it in the House of Commons. He will take up a certain amount of time. We had that experience today with a statement by the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion (Mr. Mar-chand). His statement was commented upon by one member from each of the other parties.
As I say, we have only four parties now. In years to come we may have five again, or even six, as somebody suggests. In that case five statements, all in critical vein, will be made in reply to a minister's statement. In these circumstances a minister would be reluctant to make a statement on motions in the House, whether on the reorganization of his department or the establishment of departmental offices across Canada, as was the case today. Because he would have to face five critics he would be tempted to go down the hall to the television room and have his statement telecast from there, where there is no one to criticize him unless the television interviewer wishes to call in one or two critics.
Let us not be fooled by the argument that a televised two-hour period would enhance this House. Let us project this thing a little further. Let us suppose we have disposed of motions and have moved into the question period. Normally the question period is 40 minutes. Today it was mainly taken up with questions posed by members of the opposition, but from my study of the rules I do not see that the question period is reserved exclusively for opposition members. From time to time government backbenchers have expressed dissatisfaction at the decisions 21774-201
DEBATES	4895
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates made by the government and have sought a more active role as Members of Parliament. What is to stop them demanding of the Chair equal time in the 40-minute question period?
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
It is a simple case of arithmetic. There are 264 members in the House excluding the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker. The government is in power, so it will more than likely have the majority of seats or it would not be in power. Even taking out the cabinet ministers, they will more than likely still have just as many members in their backbenches; and if you include the Parliamentary Secretaries you will probably have more than the whole combined opposition.
It is logical to assume that in a close and hard debate over the question of the allotment of the 40 minutes televising of the question period, government backbenchers would demand 20 of the 40 minutes, which would leave the official opposition with 20 minutes. The parties to my left would not be particularly happy with that. They are noted for being quiet, but from time to time they may want to raise a few questions. They could argue that their party should be allowed five minutes. So lest we think the question period would be enhanced, the official opposition would be allotted ten minutes, the NDP would be allotted five, the Ralliement Credi-tiste would be allotted five and the backbenchers of the government would be allotted 20.


Mr.   Coie@Longueuil: How about the
answers?


John (Jack) Henry Horner: The Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Cote) asks, "How about the answers?" That is what I was coming to. Let us suppose the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stanfield) asked a particularly embarrassing question of a particularly capable or verbose minister such as the Minister of Transport. He is very capable with words, but how capable with action we have yet to judge. But suppose he was asked the question-does anybody in this House think he could not talk for ten minutes? We would be surprised if he could not, because we know he is great with words and that there are a number of cabinet ministers who are perhaps just as good. We would have lost the ten minutes allotted to the official opposition for that day. From time to time we have heard backbenchers complain that the Speaker does not recognize
4696	COMMONS
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates them as often as he does the front row. They can rest assured that if television comes in during the question period, they will not even be bobbing up for a question. The same principle applies to the two parties to my left.
Let us look at the 20 minutes that will be absorbed by the backbenchers of the government. Say, for example, the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) wants to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Olson) which concerns his riding. He does not want to fall out with the minister because he may want to ask a petty favour in the future, so he sends notice of the question to the minister. The department tells him how to word the question so that the minister can answer it politely and look good. It is all a great show. Over a period of ten years of steady watching, I suppose the Canadian public would catch on that the whole dang thing is just a sham, that it is just a great show, and would realize that it was a planted question. It would be obvious that the whole 20 minutes was purely for show.
The whole purpose of the question period is to solicit information on the intentions of the government in running this country, not necessarily to give notice but to try to pierce the armour to see if there is any weakness in their administration or their intention in the application of a particular piece of legislation. In my opinion, with television in the House of Commons the question period would eventually be destroyed.
Let us go a step further and study the role of the House of Commons. Many people complain that it is a dead place, that nothing happens here and that everything takes place in committees. Yesterday was a good example. There were eight committees sitting, so 'the House was rather empty. I was in the agricultural committee in the morning and then in the transportation committee until ten o'clock at night. We had a pretty good attendance there. We had the Minister of Communications (Mr. Kierans) right on the firing line and things were pretty hot at times. With eight committees sitting at the same time, television would not bring members back into the House if they had a duty in the committee. Just because the transportation committee was not televised and the House was, I would not like to think that I had deserted the cause of my constituency and left the committee because I had no chance of getting on television there. Surely a Member of Parliament is not sent here just to sit; he is sent

DEBATES	March 11, 1970
here to work, to use his energy. As long as there are eight committees sitting during the day, whether or not this House is being televised surely duty will come before show in the eyes of many representatives on both sides of the House.
What will be the role of television commentators? Let us suppose that the two hour period, or the whole of the proceedings of the House of Commons is televised. Few people have a chance to watch it regularly-perhaps just those who happen to be ill or are retired. I suppose we still watch television to some extent at home in the evenings, watching the eleven o'clock news and the weekly commentaries and educational shows, etc. Who is going to do those weekly commentaries?
We have just had a debate in this House which hinged on pollution to some extent. Let us suppose that for some reason or another the debate came up in a hurry and the member handling it was not able to bring all his facts with him and consequently was not able to do the job of which he was capable. He does not have 17 research assistants, as have some of the big T.V. commentators. These people can prepare themselves very well for a 15, 20 or 30-minute show on the weekend. They can roll back reels of film of the time when the question was debated in the House and say, "Didn't that Member of Parliament, when he was speaking on pollution, know that 77 per cent of the air pollution in major cities is caused by the automobile?" I just throw that figure out as an example. If television is brought into the House of Commons, the T.V. commentators will assume the role of the opposition to the government more so than they do today.
It is no wonder that the great Pierre Burton and Charles Templeton-the first two that come to my mind-say they are all for it, and that in this technological age it is ridiculous that television should not be in the House of Commons. They think it should, Mr. Speaker, but it should enhance them so that rather than pick holes in my arguments, they can pick holes in me and my ability to push ideas across. It is not that they have ever done it, or that I have any particular grudge against those two commentators. However, it would only enhance them, and not the members who participate earnestly and to the best of their ability in the debate.
Now let us take a quick look at the role of a representative. A Member of Parliament is sent here to concern himself with the prob-
March 11, 1970
lems of the country and his constituency. Those problems take him all the way from the acreage payments announced a week ago by the minister to the Indian Affairs problem, to the oil problem, to the depths of foreign affairs and to the depths of our military role in the western alliance.
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)
Some of the problems are big; some of them are little. It may seem surprising that it is the little things that concern the people back home. They may be personal problems about which a member has to see a minister, deputy minister or someone in the department. The member must say to that person, "Why wasn't so-and-so given a passport? Why is it being held up? Why wasn't such-and-such a corporation given a grant by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion? A member must be capable of making arrangements to see ministers and deputy ministers. He must be determined enough to pursue the little problems through the bureaucratic empire in Ottawa.
A Member of Parliament should not have to be a television actor capable of presenting arguments before the television cameras every day. I wish to deal with a Member of Parliament who may be very congenial and good at getting in to see ministers or their assistants about the little problems of his constituents, but cannot make a good speech off the cuff. Maybe he cannot talk about any given subject. If television comes into the House of Commons, every constituent in Canada will be watching to see if his member speaks.
If they do not see their member on television making a speech in the House of Commons, they will say, "So-and-so is up all the time, but I haven't seen our member. Where is he? Why isn't he here? Whether he likes it or not, the member will be judged by the number of times he participates in a debate that is being televised. What he says will not be important; what will be important is how he participates in the debate. They will be looking to see whether his hair is combed, what is the colour of his suit, the colour of his eyes, or how well his tie matches his shirt. That is not the reason a member is chosen to represent his constituency. He is not elected solely on his ability to expound at great length on any given subject without having been given notice. He is chosen because of his concern for the people in his riding, his desire
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates to work for them and try to better then-position in life. Television in the House of Commons would not enhance this aspect of Parliament at all. We have a very serious matter here with which Members of Parliament must concern themselves.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order, please. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Mr. Gerard Laprise (Abitibi):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few comments on the motion under consideration, which reads as follows;
That the Standing Committee on Procedure and Organization, in consultation with Mr. Speaker, be directed to study the question of radio and television broadcasting of the proceedings of the House and its Committees, including the legal, procedural, and technical aspects thereof, and the question of arrangements made for reporters for the electronic media in the Parliament Buildings.
Mr. Speaker, this is a very important piece of legislation because it will be possible, through the media, to reach the people and to acquaint them with what is going on in the House of Commons.
Mr. Speaker, one can but commend the idea of informing the public, but I wonder if the best way of reaching the public was considered in the proposed measure.
I listened attentively to the comments from the hon. member for Crowfoot (Mr. Horner), and I subscribe to several of his observations. For instance, he expressed concern about the course that could be given to the question period, as government back-benchers could prepare in advance their questions for the ministers so as to enable them to indicate the government policy. And if the Liberal backbenchers had the least bit of imagination, they could do exactly the same thing now. There is nothing to prevent a government member to put whatever questions he wants. In any event, they have done so on several occasions.
This can therefore not be argued against televising the debates of the House. It should be realized that the viewers do not have the advantage or privilege that we enjoy, since we are paid to be here, of following every day the debates of the House in front of their T.V. set.
Several people have to work outside. Even the housewife does not have much time to spend in front of her set. Several persons will therefore not be able to follow what goes on

March 11. 1970
4698	COMMONS DEBATES
Broadcasting of House of Commons Debates in the House of Commons, for once the broad- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard): It being casting is over, in the course of it, it is not six o'clock, the House stands adjourned until possible to give an instant replay as is done tomorrow at 2 p.m. during hockey or baseball games for instance.
Mr. Speaker, may I call it six o'clock for I At 6 p.m. the House adjourned, without would have other remarks to make later on? question put, pursuant to Standing Order.
March 11, 1970



APPENDIX &quot;A&quot;

[Stage Direction]
For Release: 11:15 a.m. E.S.T. March 9th, 1970

[Stage Direction]
The Honourable John Munro and The Honourable James Richardson announced today that the federal government has agreed to pay to the city of Winnipeg an additional grant of $589,516.00 to cover the city's share of the deficit of the 1967 Pan-American games.
Mr. Richardson stated that a letter was being delivered today to Mayor Stephen Juba informing him of the government's decision.
With the approval of this additional grant, the federal government has paid a total of $2,839,516.00 or 46 per cent of the total cost of holding the Pan-American games in Winnipeg. This includes the $750,000 federal grant, or 50 per cent share of the cost of the Olympic Pan-American swimming pool which is now in active and continuous use in the city.
In the final accounting, the federal government has paid 46 per cent of the total cost of the games, the Government of Manitoba 42 per cent and the City of Winnipeg 12 per cent.
March 9th, 1970
His Worship Mayor Stephen Juba,
City of Winnipeg,
Manitoba, Canada.
Dear Mr. Mayor:
I am very pleased to inform you that the federal cabinet has agreed to cover your administration's deficit with respect to the 1967 Pan-American games by making a grant to the city of $589,516.00.
I know you will share my great personal satisfaction that this very pressing problem for Winnipeg has been resolved. As you know, Canadians from coast to coast took justifiable pride in the outstanding success of the Pan-American games and the federal government's decision to make an additional financial contribution is a reflection of the widespread appreciation for the contribution made by Winnipeg to Canada's centennial year.
For Winnipeg, the Pan-Am games represented a prodigious community achievement in which thousands of Winnipegers contributed time and effort. The financial support received from all Manitobans and from all Canadians was, of course, vital, but the work, the enthusiasm, the drive and the imagination were of the authentic Winnipeg variety. I am delighted that our city's great contribution to centennial year is receiving this further recognition from the government of Canada.
Sincerely,
James Richardson.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 12, 1970