1970-12-16

PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF PRIME MINISTER EDWARD HEATH OF GREAT BRITAIN

Mr. Speaker:: May I seek the indulgence of the House to draw the attention of hon. members to the presence in the Speaker's gallery of a most distinguished visitor, the Right Hon. Edward Heath, Prime Minister of Great Britain.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mr. Speaker:: The Canadian Parliament owes a great deal in its traditions and in its constitution to the British House of Commons; that is one of the many reasons why we extend so warm a welcome to the Prime Minister today. As he surveys our proceedings he will note at once the affinity between this House and the House of Commons at Westminster, of which he is such an illustrious member.
Mr. Heath has had a most distinguished parliamentary and public career, having occupied two of the great offices of Parliament, namely, those of the Leader of the Opposition and Prime Minister, leaving only that of the Speaker to be achieved.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!
[DOT] (2.10 p.m.)


Mr. Speaker:: He has had a notable record in wartime and has made a significant contribution to the public life of England and the Commonwealth. We welcome him as one of our own and wish him a pleasant, productive and happy stay, brief as it may be, in our country.

It is with great pleasure, Mr. Prime Minister, that we welcome you in this country. All the members of this House hope that you will soon be back in Canada for a longer stay.



ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


Mr. J. Edward Broadbenl (Oshawa-Whilby) moved: for leave to introduce Bill C-212, respecting the importation
of goods produced by corporations engaged in industrial disputes.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. member shall have leave to introduce the said bill?


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


John Edward Broadbent: The purpose of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to prevent corporations in Canada which are involved in strikes from importing products essentially similar to those which they manufacture pending settlement of that strike. Although this principle has general relevance it is of particular concern to those industries involved in free trade pacts such as the auto pact. On that subject, Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to inform the House that a short while ago I was informed that a tentative agreement has been reached between the United Automobile Workers of Canada and General Motors.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first time and ordered to be printed.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Nowlan: What active and concrete steps to encourage Canadian professionals in the social sciences, humanities and the arts, presently resident abroad to return to this country, have been taken by the Canada Council?


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: I am informed by the Canada Council as follows: Most Canada Council programs have this effect since they are meant to create better conditions and more opportunities in this country for Canadian professionals in the arts, humanities and social sciences. For example, the orchestras and the opera, theatre and dance companies which receive Council grants offer employment to Canadian artists, and the Council's research grants and leave fellowships to faculty members in the humanities and social sciences contribute to making Canadian universities more attractive places of employment for Canadian scholars. The Council is now conducting a study to determine where and in what numbers recent holders of its doctoral fellow-

December 16, 1970
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ships are employed. It has in addition recently published a directory of Council-assisted doctoral students who are near completion of their studies for distribution to universities and other potential employers in Canada.


GRAIN-RESPONSIBILITY FOR PAYMENT OF FREIGHT RATES
Mr. Skoberg: What written regulation or agreement is in effect, which spells out that the grain producer is responsible for the payment of freight rates to either Thunder Bay or Vancouver?


Hon. Otto E. Lang (Minister Responsible for The Canadian Wheat Board):: Under the terms of the Canadian Wheat Board Act, sections 25 and 35, and the Regulations made thereunder, the Canadian Wheat Board shall pay to producers selling and delivering wheat, oats or barley produced in the designated area to the Board, a sum certain per bushel basis in store Thunder Bay or Vancouver. Since the purchase of these grains is basis Thunder Bay or Vancouver the producer is responsible for transportation costs.


CONSUMER PURCHASING POWER OF 1949 DOLLAR
Mr. Mather: In terms of consumer purchasing power, what percentage ot the 1949 dollar has been lost in the intervening years?


Mr. Bruce Howard (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce):: The Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that: The Consumer Price Index for Canada (1949 = 100) stood at 168.3 for October 1970. On the basis of this index movement, the purchasing power of the dollar spent on consumer goods and services in October 1970, in terms of the 1949 dollar, would be 59 cents. The decline in the purchasing power of the consumer dollar since 1949, therefore, would amount to 41 per cent.


DAWSON CITY HISTORIC SITE-DISAPPEARANCE OF ARTIFACTS
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Are artifacts disappearing from the Dawson City Historic Site?
2.	Has the government investigated this continuing loss of priceless historic treasures?
3.	What action has the government taken to (a) stop the flow (b) deal with the offenders?
4.	What remedies are available to the government in the matter?


Mr. Judd Buchanan (Parliameniary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1.
Artifacts are not disappearing from National Historic Sites in Dawson City owned by the Department. There have, however, been instances where items have been removed from unoccupied Crown land and private property.
2.	During the past summer, two cases where offenders had removed articles from Crown land have been investigated by the R.C.M.P. with the result that the articles removed were returned to the Territory.
3.	Action is taken whenever possible, but it is extremely difficult to protect artifacts or to prosecute the offenders when articles are taken from privately owned property and unoccupied Crown land.
4.	In instances where the owner of the property can be identified and ownership can be established, it would be possible to initiate prosecution under the Criminal Code. The continued vigilance of the R.C.M.P. and the cooperation of local residents are the primary remedies available.


ALLOWANCES AND EXPENDITURES CLAIMED BY OIL, GAS AND MINING COMPANIES
Mr. Harding: 1.	What is the total amount of depletion allowances claimed by (a) oil and natural gas companies (b) all other mining companies in each year 1966 to 1969?
2.	What is the total amount of exploration and development expenditures claimed for tax purposes by (a) oil and gas companies (b) all other mining companies for each of the same years?


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: The Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that: 1. The total amount of depletion allowances claimed is as follows:
(a) Oil and Natural (b) Other Mining Gas Companies	Companies
$ million
1966	68.4	110.21967	61.3	111.31968	68.2	109.11969	not available	not available2. The	total amount of exploration and development	expenditures claimed for tax purposes is as follows:	(a) Oil and Natural	(b) Other MiningGas Companies	Companies*1966	521.6	181.51967	557.3	209.11968	626.5	209.91969	not available	not available
* Figures do not include exploration and development expenditures claimed for tax purposes by companies that had some mining activities, but whose principal business was in other fields. These expenditures were as follows: $ million, 1966, 19.4; 1967, 44.7; 1968, 63.4; 1969, not available.


TRADE-BEEF PROMOTION
Mr. Soulham: 1.	What initiative is the government taking to penetrate the Japanese beef market in view of the rapid increase of consumption of beef in that country over the past several years?
2.	Can the government indicate what special action is being taken to stimulate beef sales in other areas of the world?


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: 1. Following an initial survey of the market by its Trade Commis-

December 16, 1970

sioner Service, the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce sponsored a show and exhibition of beef quality and grades in Japan in late 1968. This was followed by a Canadian Food Fair in early 1969 where meat products were exhibited. A mission to Canada of a group of Japanese meat industry representatives in October and November, 1969, was sponsored by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce, during which Japanese officials were shown Canadian meat production from the ranch to the table. In the fall of
1970,	in conjunction with a large departmental store in Tokyo, a promotion of Canadian products is being held which will feature Canadian meat products. In early
1971,	a promotion directed to the hotel and restaurant trade, and featuring beef products specifically, is being planned. This promotion will take place in Tokyo and Osaka.
2. A meat trade study was conducted in Europe early in 1970 by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce, the results of which are presently being published and are scheduled to be released within a few weeks. This study covered the major meat importing countries of Europe. On the United States' and Caribbean markets, the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce has participated in a variety of food shows and has assisted Canadian exporters in establishing contacts with importers in these areas.


PERCENTAGE OF BUDGET FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES
Mr. Robinson: What percentage of the total budget is allocated for research purposes of one kind and another?


Hon. C. M. Drury (President of the Treasury Board):: General reply for the Public Service at large: Data pertaining to expenditures on scientific activities in the physical, engineering and life sciences are collected annually by DBS. This compilation includes expenditures identified functionally under Physical Sciences Research and those expenditures on scientific activities in support of other functions. In 1970-71, funds allocated to scientific activities account for approximately 5.8 percent of the budgetary Main Estimates. Complete data pertaining to expenditures on scientific activities in the social sciences are not available, but expenditures functionally identified under Social Science Research, account for approximately 0.4 percent of the 1970-71 budgetary Main Estimates.


ATLANTIC PROVINCES TRANSPORTATION STUDY
Mr. Comeau: Has the overall study of transportation requirements for the Atlantic Provinces been completed and, if not, when is it expected to be completed?


Mr. Gerard Duquet (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport):: The Federal-Provincial Committee on Atlantic Region Transportation submitted its initial report in May of this year. The report recommendations dealing primarily with disposition of the M.F.R.A. intra-select territory rail subsidy have been
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accepted in large measure and action to implement the recommended changes is in hand. It has been proposed that the Committee continue to function; as soon as representation on the Committee has been confirmed by the provinces involved, it is expected that further meetings will be scheduled. The work of the Committee, therefore, is ongoing.


CANADIAN MERCHANT MARINE STUDY
Mr. Fortin: 1.	What is the status of studies concerning the possibility of creating a Canadian merchant marine?
2.	Is the feasibility study conducted by Hedlin, Menzies and Associates Ltd. completed and, if not, what is the anticipated completion date?
3.	Will the studies be Tabled in the House of Commons and (a) if so, on what date (b) if not, for what reason?


Gérard Duquet: 1. A report prepared by Hedlin Menzies and Associates Ltd., in conjunction with George C. Sharp Inc., on the economic feasibility of developing a Canadian merchant marine will be submitted to the Canadian Transport Commission by the end of the year.
2.	See Answer to Part 1.
3.	Consideration will be given to tabling the report when it is submitted to the government.


NON-AGGRESSION PACT BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH KOREA
Mr. Robinson: Will the government consider the advisability of urging the United Nations to explore fully North Korea's proposal of the non-aggression pact?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: The Government is cognizant of the proposals of the North Korean authorities in Pyongyang for a nonaggression pact between the governments of North and South Korea. Similar proposals in slightly varying form have been put forward on a number of occasions in recent years, most recently in June 1970.
Common to all of the North Korean proposals for a non-aggression pact is the pre-condition of prior withdrawal of all foreign troops, i.e. U.N. forces, from the Korean peninsula. Canada is a member of the "Participating Nations Advisory Group" to the United Nations Command in Korea and the Canadian Government is in agreement with the Government of the Republic of Korea that such a pre-condition to negotiation is unacceptable at this time-at least until North Korea demonstrates by its official statements and its actions that it is seriously interested in peaceful co-existence with its southern neighbour.
The Government believes that there is perhaps more merit in the proposals for Korean re-unification made by President Park Chung-hee of the Republic of Korea in his statement of August 15, 1970. Unfortunately the Pyongyang regime has dismissed these proposals out-ofhand.
2100
December 16, 1970

Questions
Both sets of proposals were considered in some detail in the report of the United Nations Commission for the Unification and Rehabilitation of Korea (UNCURK) which was submitted to the Secretary General of the United Nations on September 14, 1970 for consideration by the twenty-fifth session of the General Assembly.
On the question of unification, the report expressed the belief of the Commission that, while there has been no substantial change in the position of the Republic of Korea or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), the views of both have been further clarified and defined by recent statements. The Report noted that both sides continued to adhere to their fixed positions and that there would appear to be little possibility in the foreseeable future that these positions would be varied. Nevertheless, the Commission declared it would remain receptive to any proposal which would permit it to fulfil a more effective function in respect of unification. It also pointed out that, while the Government of the Republic of Korea has repeatedly affirmed its adherence to the objectives of the United Nations, North Korea continues to deny the competence of the United Nations to deal with the Korean question and continues to challenge the role of the Commission in carrying out its mandate. In the Assembly debate on the Korean question this autumn, Canada co-sponsored and voted in favour of a resolution extending the life and mandate of UNCURK. This resolution received the support of a majority of the members.


NATIONAL SECURITY-FACILITIES FOR HOUSING ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL DURING RECENT CRISIS
Mr. Coates: Were additional facilities leased by the federal government for the housing of Armed Forces and RCMP personnel as a result of the request for Armed Forces personnel by the Government of the Province of Quebec and the decision by the federal government to use additional RCMP in the Province of Quebec and, if so (a) from whom were such facilities leased (b) for what period of time (c) at what cost?


Mr. J. A. Jerome (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: I am informed by the Department of National Defence and the Department of the Solicitor General as follows: No additional facilities were leased for housing Canadian Armed Forces' personnel. Canadian Forces' Bases were used to support the influx of troops and a number of armouries were opened or temporarily taken over to house Regular Force personnel. In a few instances temporary duty was authorized for lodging and meals in areas where no service facilities were available. No additional facilities were leased for housing Royal Canadian Mounted Police personnel.


UNITED STATES NAVIGATION REGULATIONS
Mr. Rowland: 1.	Do American navigation regulations, as applied to the American locks at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, prevent the vessels of any of Canada's trading partners from entering any of Canada's Great Lakes ports and, if so (a) which ports (b) the vessels of which nations are affected?
2.	If the movement of the vessels of some of Canada's trading partners in the Great Lakes are restricted by American navigation regulations, has the Canadian Government made representations to the Government of the United States in this regard?
3.	What was the nature of the representations?
4.	What was the nature of the response of the Government of the United States to the representations?


Gérard Duquet: In so far as the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority is concerned: 1. The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (specifically Section 207.441 of Title 33) covering security regulations for the St. Marys Falls Canal and Locks prohibits passage of "vessels of the Sino-Soviet block countries" through the Soo Locks. This would appear to prevent passages of vessels from these countries via United States waters to all Canadian ports on Lake Superior.
2.	No. The issue has not yet arisen inasmuch as no Soviet vessels have ever applied to proceed past Sarnia.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	Not applicable.


DR. OLIVE ROBERTSON
Mr. Robinson: Has Dr. Olive Robertson been refused entry to Canada and, if so, for what reason?


Otto Emil Lang: The Department of Manpower and Immigration has been unable to locate any record of an application for entry to Canada having been submitted by a Dr. Olive Robertson.


PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION-EMPLOYMENT RESPONSIBILITIES
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 424
Mr. McCleave:: 1.	Has the Public Service Commission delegated its employment responsibilities in the past three years to officers of various departments in (a) promotional fields (b) non-promotional fields?
2.	In what areas are departments given the authority to make appointments from the open market?
3.	If the answer to Part 1(a) or 1(b) is in the affirmative, what was the rationale for such a decision?
4.	Has an estimate been made as to the added cost, if any, of such delegation in terms of advertising, travel of examining boards, travel of candidates, and time taken up of departmental people involved in such decisions?
5.	What will be the impact of such delegation on the career prospects of public servants.


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Public Service Commission as follows: (a) Yes. (b) Yes.
2. Subject to the provisions of the Public Service Employment Act and to a requirement to obtain referrals from Canada Manpower Centres, most of the major departments and agencies have been given authority to make appointments from the open market in: (a) all groups in the Administrative Support Category, (b) all

December 16, 1970

groups in the Operational Category except the Correctional Group. A number of major departments have been given authority subject to certain limitations, to make appointments from the open market in the Administrative Services Group and the Program Administration Group of the Administrative and Foreign Service Category.
3.	The Commission's decision regarding delegation of authority took into consideration: the maintenance of the merit principle in the making of appointments; consideration of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Government organization; consideration of the recommendations of the Preparatory Committee on Collective Bargaining in the Public Service of Canada; consideration of the deliberations of the Special Joint Committee of the Senate and House of Commons on Employer-Employee Relations in the Public Service of Canada; consideration of special studies carried out by the Commission's staff on means of optimizing the effectiveness of the staffing function.
4.	No.
5.	None.


AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL AUTOMATION
Mr. Forreslall: 1.	At what stage are government plans with respect to automation in our air traffic control systems?
2.	What planning is being done now with respect to post 1980 air traffic control systems?
3 Has the government evaluated as yet the studies resulting from the trial operations of Univac's ARTS 111 system and, if so, when might a decision be made to adopt this flexible automated system for Canadian use?


Gérard Duquet: 1. Planning is in progress to define air traffic control systems improvements incorporating a significant degree of automation for use both in terminal and enroute air traffic control.
2.	The present planning for the introduction of automation into ATC is being conducted so that requirements for the latter half of the 1970's may be further extended into the 1980's in a manner which will permit the use of the latest techniques available that will meet the needs of the users at that time and provide the best ATC system available.
3.	Representatives of the Ministry have been closely following the activities of the FAA in their developments of terminal automation systems (ARTS) I, II, and III and are currently conducting detailed studies of the ARTS III system. Present planning is to introduce a system similar to the ARTS III for the new Montreal International Airport and for the Toronto International Airport in 1973.


SMITHS FALLS-PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OFFICE SPACE
Mr. Francis: 1.	Did the Public Service Commission engage space in Marina Hotel in Smiths Falls within the past three years and, if so, how much space was taken and what were the annual rentals?
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2.	Was the space redecorated for this purpose and, if so, were there any charges to the government and how much?
3.	Are there any plans for continued use of this space by the government?
[ Translation]


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Public Service Commission as follows: 1. Yes. Forty-eight rooms. An annual rental was not paid by the Public Service Commission. Room rentals for forty rooms have been pro-rated to include meals and eight rooms for use as office, library, seminar rooms, lecture rooms, dining room and lounge at the rate of $20.00 per night, Monday to Friday and $11.75 per night for Saturdays and Sundays. Candidates from various departments, paid room charges in normal motel fashion, through individual departmental funds. The motel was used for thirty-six weeks each course year under direct arrangements with the Public Service Commission for the Management Course for the Career Assignment Program.
2.	Redecorating was done by the owner. No funds were expended by the lessee for this purpose.
3.	There are no plans for continued use of this space, in so far as the Public Service Commission is concerned.


CANADIAN MILITARY BASES TREATMENT PLANTS
Mr. Godin: Are Canadian military bases equipped with a treatment plant, and (a) if so, which ones (b) if not, are there projects of this kind and for which bases?


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of National Defence):: Except for the following, all Canadian military bases are either provided with a sewage treatment plant or, where feasible, connected to a municipal sewage system. The following installations do not have sewage treatment facilities: Massett, B.C., stuides are in hand to develop a regional system to meet municipal and federal needs; Esquimalt, B.C., work is to start in 1971 to incorporate with a new regional system; Shearwater, N.S., engineering studies are now in progress; Bedford, N.S., engineering studies are now in progress; Shannon Park, N.S., a study is in hand and consideration is being given to incorporating with the Dartmouth system.


GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS COVERING TANK CLEANING PROCEDURES
Mr. Anderson: On the basis of the research work done by Gulf Oil, Shell Oil and Chevron following explosions on the three supertankers Shell Mactra, Shell Marpessa and King Haakon in December, 1969, has the government issued any new regulations governing tank cleaning procedures on Canadian tankers and barges or non-Canadian vessels in Canadian waters?


Gérard Duquet: The research into the supertanker explosions referred to is still in progress. Officials of the

December 16, 1970
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Department of Transport are following up on this matter and if changes in tank cleaning procedures or any other safety measures for Canadian tankers are found necessary, these will be implemented.


CBC-DELEGATION TO CONFERENCE ON CANADIAN-AMERICAN RELATIONS, NEW YORK
Mr. Rodrigue: I How many delegates were sent by CBC to the 12th Conference on Canadian-American relations in New York?
2.	What is the status of each delegate within CBC?
3.	How many of them represented the English network?
4.	How many of them represented the French network?
5.	What was the amount of authorized expenses for this conference?
6.	What were the expenses for CBC delegates who attended the conference?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the CBC that the Corporation did not send delegates to the conference. However, six CBC people were sent for the purpose of covering the conference for English radio and television services and the CBC international service; five people were sent to cover the conference for the French radio and television services. In each case, normal travel and accommodation allowances applied.


DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL-MAN HOURS SAVED AS A RESULT OF USE OF COMPUTERS
Mr. Robinson: How many man-hours have been saved as a result of the utilization of computers by the Department of the Solicitor General during each year since computers have been used?


Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Solicitor General):: Nil. The Department of the Solicitor General does not have the exclusive use of a computer in its operations and the utilization of computer services has not resulted to date in savings in man-hours; this utilization, however, has resulted in the production of information not otherwise available for more efficient operation.


DEPARTMENT OF SOLICITOR GENERAL-UTILIZATION OF COMPUTERS
Mr. Robinson: As a result of the use of computers by the Department of the Solicitor General how many employees have been (a) laid oil (b) hired?


George James McIlraith: (a) Nil. (b) Nil.


SHIP HARBOUR, NFLD.-RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHARF FACILITIES
Mr. Carter: Has the government made representations to the United States Government with a view to having responsibility for existing wharf facilities owned by that Government at Ship Harbour, Newfoundland, transferred to the Canadian Government and made available for use by the residents of the area and, if so, what were the results?


Gérard Duquet: No.


PLACENTIA, NFLD.-FEDERAL EXPENDITURE ON CASTLE HILL, HISTORIC SITE PROJECT
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 497
Mr. Carter:: What has been the total expenditure, to date, by the government on the Castle Hill, Placentia, Newfoundland, Historic Site Project?


J. Judd Buchanan: The
government has spent to November 15, 1970, on Operations-$30,410, on Capital-$175,630.


HOUSING UNITS FOR ARCTIC QUEBEC ESKIMOS
Mr. Diefenbaker: How many housing units and in what communities and in what numbers have been provided for the Arctic Quebec Eskimos since the first of July, 1970?


J. Judd Buchanan: Forty-five housing units have been constructed for the Eskimos in Arctic Quebec at the following locations: Fort Chimo, 30; Payne Bay, 10; Wakeham Bay, 5.


AVERAGE LIFE SPAN
Mr. Mather: By province and territory, what is the average length of life of (a) females (b) males?


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: The Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that: The average length of life (in years), by province or territory for (a) females, and (b) males, in 1969 was as follows:

	Females	Males	
Newfoundland	61.8	58.4	>Prince Edward Island	70.0	65.7	Nova Scotia	69.8	63.5	New Brunswick	68.3	62.7	3Quebec	65.0	60.2	iOntario	68.7	63.6	Manitoba	68.6	64.5	Saskatchewan	67.5	65.7	JAlberta	64.6	62.4	* 'ABritish Columbia	69.1	65.7	Yukon	38.1	41.8	Northwest Territories	28.9	34.4	NATIONAL DEFENCE-CROSS TRAINING	AIR ELEMENT


PERSONNEL
Mr. Forrestall: What steps are being taken to bring instrument and electrical technicians in the air environment of the Canadian Armed Forces up to comparable levels existing in sea and land environments?

December 16, 1970


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The cross training of former air element Electrical technicians, in the rank of corporal and below is expected to be completed by March 31, 1971; for personnel in the rank of sergeant, by July, 1971. The completion of this course will bring students up to the level demanded by the Canadian Forces Trade Specification Instrument and Electrical Technicians 551. Former Instrument technicians may be cross trained at a later date in the aircraft electrical function.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-MATERIAL USED IN NEW UNIFORMS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	What is the material used in the new Armed Forces uniforms?
2.	Was the material tested for use at sea?
3.	Have the new uniforms proved satisfactory at sea?
4. Item Coat
Trousers
Caps
Uniform Supplier
Scott Uniform Company 210 St. Jean Street Longueuil, Quebec
Scott Uniform Company 210 St. Jean Street Longueuil, Quebec
Tip Top Tailors
637 Lakeshore Blvd. West
Toronto, Ontario
Cooper Clothing Mfg. Company Limited 3981 St. Lawrence Blvd.
William Scully Limited 2090 Moreau Street Montreal, Quebec
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4.	Who is the supplier of the uniforms and/or material for the Armed Forces?
Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of National
Defence): 1. Coat, trousers and cap, plain polyester fibre/ wool 6 oz. cloth; shirt, broadcloth polyester fibre/cotton 4 oz. cloth; raincoat (heavy), garbadine viscose/polyester fibre cloth (silicone treated) 8.9 oz., raincoat (light weight), coated nylon taffeta polyurethane cloth; overcoat, melton cloth 17 oz.
2.	The fabrics used in the shirt, raincoat and overcoat were previously used in former service uniforms and were considered to be tested and proven items. The polyester fibre/wool and the nylon taffeta polyurethane used in the coat and trousers and lightweight raincoat respectively were developed for the CF uniform ensemble based on fabrics which were known but not in the supply system at that time.
3.	Yes.
Material Supplier
Leach Textiles Limited Huntingdon, Quebec
Principal Cap & Sportswear 4026 Ontario Street East Montreal, Quebec
Shirts	La Chemise La Pointe	Inc.
300 27th Street St. George (Beauce) Quebec
Raincoat	Croydon Mfg. Co. Ltd.
Gabardine	6666 St. Urbain Street
Montreal, Quebec
Raincoat	Lawron Industries Limited
Lightweight	Farnham, Quebec
Overcoat	J. Freed Clothing Co. Ltd.
474 Hargreave Street Winnipeg, Manitoba
Dominion Textiles Limited 1950 Sherbrooke Street Montreal, Quebec
Associated Textiles Limited 1120 Sun Life Building Montreal, Quebec
Dominion Textiles Limited 1950 Sherbrooke Street Montreal, Quebec
the Miner Company Granby, Quebec
Victor Woollen Productions Limited St. Victor Station Beauce, Quebec
Scott Uniform Company 210 St. Jean Street Longueuil, Quebec
Huntingdon Woollen Mills Limited 72 Dalhousie Street Huntingdon, Quebec

December 16, 1970
Questions


NATIONAL DEFENCE-MANPOWER STATISTICS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many members of the Armed Forces are now serving overseas?
2.	How many members of the Armed Forces are now stationed in Canada?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: As of October 31, 1970: 1. Outside Canada, 7,233.
2. In Canada, 83,992.


MARITIME COMMAND-REPAIRS TO HMCS FRASER
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	Where is HMCS Fraser now located?
2.	Is the ship undergoing repairs and, if so (a) for what reason (b) what is the estimated cost of such repairs?
3.	Is HMCS Fraser still on active service?
4.	When is it anticipated that the ship will return to Canada?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. HMCS Fraser has been in HM Dockyard at Plymouth, England, since October 17, 1970, after suffering main machinery damage while operating in United Kingdom waters.
2.	Yes, (a) to renew all bearings in both gear boxes and turbines; to refurbish both forced lubricating oil pumps; and, after return to Canada, to rebuild main pinion, port gear box; (b) $60,000-$75,000.
3.	On completion of repairs, Fraser will be fully operational. Until then, it is restricted in speed.
4.	December 9, 1970.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-COMMISSIONED AND NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many senior commissioned officers, i.e. Colonel and above, are there in the Armed Forces?
2.	How many junior commissioned officers, i.e. Lt. to Lt. Col. are there in the Armed Forces?
3.	How many non-commissioned officers are there in the Armed Forces?
4.	How many men are in the ranks of the Armed Forces?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: As of 31 October, 1970: 1. 423.
2.	13,986.
3.	Sergeants and above, 19,872.
4.	Corporals and privates, 55,126.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-MANPOWER STRENGTH RETIRED TO CIVILIAN STATUS
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many retired Armed Forces officers, from January, 1968 to the present, now retained on NDHQ staff, are holding the position they filled as an Armed Forces officer?
2.	Who are they and what are their positions?
3.	What is the remuneration of those persons mentioned in Part 2?
4.	Were those positions filled by open competition and, if not, for what reason?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. Twelve.
2. and 3. Name	Position	Salary Range $ 8,940-10,162
Wegren, A. J.	AS 2	
Moore, G. E.	AS 1	7,924- 9,437Finch, W. H.	ENG-6	17,688-20,100Belanger, J. H.	GT 4	9,549-10,668Macdonell, P. K.	AS 3	9,569-10,873White, G. A.	AS 6	14,889-16,918Groulx, J. H.	AS 3	9,569-10,873Robertson, R. A.	AS 3	9,569-10,873Whiting, M.	AS 4	10,500-11,931Noel De Tilly, L.	AS 6	14,889-16,918Dauphinee, M. W.	AS 2	8,940-10,612Fitzgibbon, G. M.	MED SPEC 2	21,500-28,2504.	Three were filled by open competition and nine by departmental competition. Section 2(k) of the Public Service Employment Act defines the Public Service in such a way as to include members of the Canadian Forces for the purpose of being eligible to enter competitions and for purposes of sections 11 and 13 of the Act. Section 11 of the Act stipulates that appointments shall be made from within the Public Service except where, in the opinion of the Public Service Commission, it is not in the best interests of the Public Service to do so, and section 13 puts the onus on the Commission to determine the scope of the competition.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-SUMMER STUDENT MILITIA PROGRAM 1970
Mr. Marshall: 1.	How many students were trained under the summer student militia-training program by province?
2.	How many completed the course by province?
3.	How many of the students joined militia units with which
they trained?
Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (Minister of National
Defence): As the program was based on the current Militia organization, records were not maintained by province. The Atlantic area covers Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; Eastern, Quebec; Central, Ontario less Thunder Bay; Prairie, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba plus Thunder Bay; Pacific, British Columbia.
(1)	(2)	(3)Atlantic	1,091	1,000	871Eastern	2,099	1,821	726Central	2,466	2,336	994Prairie	1,940	1,436	20Pacific	976	863	3848,572	7,456	2,895

December 16, 1970


NATIONAL DEFENCE-STORAGE OF BLANKETS
Mr. Harkness: 1.	As of November 1, 1970, how many blankets were held in storage by the Department of National Defence?
2.	How many of these are estimated to be surplus to requirements?
3.	How long have these blankets been held in storage?
4.	How many of these blankets, if any, were sent to East Pakistan for relief following the recent flood disaster in that country?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: 1. 727,860.
2.	628,860. Surplus balance is being held pending determination of total quantity required for civil emergencies.
3.	Eighteen years.
4.	50,000.


NATIONAL SECURITY-CANADIAN FORCES PERSONNEL ON DUTY DURING RECENT CRISIS
Mr. Harkness: In connection with the use of troops to aid the civil power during recent weeks (a) how many were placed on these duties in (i) the Province of Quebec (ii) the Province of Ontario (iii) other provinces (b) how many were (i) from infantry units (ii) from armoured units (iii) from artillery units (iv) from other units of the land element (v) naval personnel (vi) air personnel (c) of those employed in the provinces of (i) Quebec (ii) Ontario, how many were sent in from outside the province and from what bases were they sent?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: It is not considered to be in the best interest of national security to release at this time the exact number of Canadian Forces' personnel employed in aid of the civil power during the recent crisis.


SUSSEX, N.B.-QUESTIONNAIRE CIRCULATED BY ARMED FORCES
Mr. Forreslall: What were the results of the questionnaire circulated among 200 high school students in Sussex, N.B., by the Canadian Armed Forces?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: This questionnaire was circulated in two forms among two separate groups in the Sussex High School for the purpose of giving questionnaire wording a trial before actual use. Results are reflected only in the changes in the wording of the questionnaire being used in the current survey.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-SURVEY WITH RESPECT TO ATTITUDE OF CANADIANS TO ARMED FORCES
[Stage Direction]
Question no. 559-Mr. Forreslall:
Was a survey conducted among Canadians between the ages ot 15 and 22 both within the Canadian Armed Forces and among civilians with respect to their attitudes regarding the Canadian Armed Forces and, if so (a) how many questionnaires were sent out to (i) civilians (ii) members of the Forces (b) have the results been analyzed and will they be made public?
Donald Stovel Macdonald: A survey is being conducted among Canadian civilians between the ages of 15 and 22 and within the
Orders for Returns
Canadian Armed Forces amongst members who have up to four years completed service: (a)(i) 7,000 (ii) 2,600; (b) all returns are not yet in and no analysis has been undertaken to date. Participants were advised that replies would be confidential and used only for personnel planning purposes.


GRAIN-QUOTA DELIVERED-PAYMENT OF DIFFERENTIAL
Mr. Korchinski: Is it the intention of the government to provide the difference of .20c to those farmers, who in the crop year 1968-69 delivered only 4 bushel quota as compared to the 5 bushel that others delivered, since the initial price of grain was lowered by that amount in the crop year 1969-70?


Otto Emil Lang: No. Significant difficulties were encountered in determining those strictly eligible for deferred delivery and no further benefit is being considered for this broad group. They are entitled to share in the 1969-70 pool.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-ARMY VEHICLE COLLISION
Mr. Godin: Has Army vehicle MDN No. 64-05255 been in a collision in Montmagny, Quebec and (a) if so (i) what did the damages amount to (ii) was the vehicle repaired (b) if not, how does the government intend to dispose of this vehicle?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Yes, on March 16, 1970; (a) (i) $1,125; (ii) No, it was damaged beyond economical repair; (b) the vehicle was turned over to the Crown Assets Disposal Corporation.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Robinson: 1.	What consultants are presently engaged by the government for the Montreal International Airport?
2.	What remuneration has already been paid to them? [DOT]
3.	What is the total anticipated remuneration to be paid for their services?
4.	What is the per diem fee paid to each professional category employed as consultants?
Return tabled.


NATIONAL DEFENCE MEDICAL CENTRE, OTTAWA- NUMBER OF DOCTORS ON STAFF
Mr. Mazankowski: 1.	How many doctors are on staff at the National Defence Medical Centre, Ottawa?
2.	Who are they, what is their country of origin and their respective qualifications?
Return tabled.

December 16, 1970
Motions for Papers



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

James Alexander Jerome: Mr. Speaker, Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers Nos. 39 and 161 are acceptable to the government.



STUDY BY LOUISE M. TREMBLAY FOR DEPARTMENT OF MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 39-Mr. Orlikow:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the study by Louise M. Tremblay, Montreal, undertaken for the Department of Manpower and Immigration regarding the "Evaluation on the activity of the Research Commission on the results of the industrial change at the Windsor (Quebec) Factory of the Domtar Pulp and Paper Company".
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 161-Mr. Forresiall:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of each questionnaire circulated during recent months among civilian Canadians between the ages of 15 and 22, and the questionnaire circulated among younger members of the Armed Forces, and a copy of the questionnaire circulated among high school students in Sussex. N.B.
Motion agreed to.
James Alexander Jerome: Mr. Speaker, Notice of Motion No. 149 is acceptable to the government subject to the usual reservations concerning confidential documents and to the authorization of the government concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations and conditions expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that motion No. 149 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



ST. REGIS INDIAN RESERVE ANNEXATION- CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN GOVERNMENTS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 149-Mr. Howard (Skeena):
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the government or any agency or department and any other government or person since January 1, 1956 relating to the annexation of Cornwall Island or any part of the St. Regis Indian Reserve by the City of Cornwall, the Province of Ontario or any agency or group established by or under the aegis of the Province of Ontario.
Motion agreed to.
James Alexander Jerome: Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call Notices of Motions Nos. 12, 63, 83, 88, 141 and 160.



BACKGROUND DOCUMENTS FOR CHAPTER 8, WHTE PAPER ON TAX REFORM

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 12-Mr. Salisman:
That an Order of the House do issue for copies of all background papers and reports related to Chapter 8 of the Government White Paper on Proposals for Tax Reform regarding the impact on revenues and the economy.
Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I
move this motion on behalf of the hon. member for Waterloo.


Mr. P. M. Mahoney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, this motion refers primarily to a large quantity of raw data; however, a summary report is being prepared and when completed could be tabled in response to the motion, if that is acceptable to the hon. member.


Mr. Baldwin:: Any data from the government side is raw.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations and conditions expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary, is it the pleasure of the House that Notice of Motion No. 12 be deemed to have been adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 63-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by RCA Victor Company Limited on a Canadian Communications satellite system undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the 1st session of this Parliament.
Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member requested this report on March 11 last; however, its disclosure was prohibited by the agreement under which the company supplied this report to the government. Since that time the contract for Telsat has been awarded and I am therefore pleased to be in a position to table the report.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 83-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by W. R. Wright on departmental information programs undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the 1st Session of this Parliament.
Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will recall that in response to his earlier motion this year the minister was unable to table this study since the document referred to in this motion was commissioned as an internal study for departmental working purposes only. This study is confidential and I would ask the hon. member to kindly reconsider and withdraw his motion.


Mr. Skoberg:: Agreed.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.
December 16, 1970



CONSULTANT STUDY ON CANADIAN COMMUNICATIONS SATELLITE SYSTEMS

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 88-Mr. Skoberg:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the consultant report by Northern Electric Company Limited on Canadian Communications satellite systems undertaken for the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce in the fiscal year 1968-69, as mentioned in answer to Question Number 1,323 of the 1st Session of this Parliament.
Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member requested this report on March 11 last; however, its disclosure was prohibited by the agreement under which the company supplied this report to the government. Since that time the contract for Telesat has been awarded and I am therefore pleased now to be in a position to table the report.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 141-Mr. Harding:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House copies of all memoranda, letters, etc., exchanged in 1965 between the United States Department of the Interior and the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources regarding claims to offshore waters.
James Alexander Jerome: Mr. Speaker, the correspondence which the hon. member has asked for does not exist by reason of the fact that the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources did not come into being until October 1, 1966. I would ask, therefore, that the hon. member withdraw his motion.


Mr. Harding:: Agreed, Mr. Speaker.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.



RESULTS OF QUESTIONNAIRE CIRCULATED AMONG YOUNG CIVILIANS AND MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 160-Mr. Forrestall:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the results of the questionnaire circulated among young civilians and young members of the Canadian Armed Forces during recent months.
James Alexander Jerome: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence advises that the survey referred to is still in progress and returns are not yet complete. Statistical analysis can only begin when all returns are in. It is anticipated that this will not be before April 1, 1971. In the circumstances I wonder if the hon. member would be good enough to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Forrestall:: Agreed.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the remaining Notices of Motions stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Inquiries of the Ministry



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour who was here. I will await his return to the House.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowi-chan-The Islands.



CONSUMER AFFAIRS


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. It arises out of the announcement by two leading oil companies, Imperial Oil Company and the Hudson's Bay Oil and Gas Company, that they are raising the price of crude oil by 25 cents a barrel. Since it has been anticipated for some weeks that such an increase was to be announced, may I ask the minister if his department or the Prices and Incomes Commission has been looking into this matter? Can he give the House any report? If this matter has not been investigated, will the minister undertake to have an investigation made?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that the hon. member considers that the Prices and Incomes Commission fulfils a useful role in the economy by conducting such inquiries.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Stanley Ronald Basford: The commission has been looking at a number of fuel price increases. I am not positive that they have looked at the precise announcement to which the hon. member refers. I will determine whether that is the case.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, since the taxpayers are paying for the Prices and Incomes Commission, I thought we ought to find some work for them.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Since representatives of the two companies in question have both stated that the increase in price is due to the greater access which has been obtained for Canadian oil into the American market, will the minister undertake a specific investigation to see whether the increased price is due to any increase in costs or whether it is due to the fact that the Canadian price is being tied arbitrarily to the price in the United States?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to refer that to the Prices and Incomes Commission. Of course, the general energy policy is normally the responsibility of the National Energy Board which does not report to me.

December 16, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE



MEASURES TO ASSIST INELIGIBLE UNEMPLOYED

Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, 1 am sorry I caught the Minister of Labour out of position. A few days ago I asked the Prime Minister whether certain actions would be taken because of the indication that approximately 70,000 unemployed persons in Canada are not eligible for unemployment insurance. The Minister of Labour has no doubt had an opportunity to study this question fully. Has the minister conducted an investigation into the reasons for this gap? What measures does he propose to take to lessen the obvious hardship that will result in the difficult winter ahead which even that very sanguine optimist, the Minister of Finance, forecasts?


Hon. Bryce Mackasey (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I will try to deal with all the questions raised. First of all, I think the precise figure of 77,000 was probably arrived at by subtracting the number of people eligible for unemployment insurance from those who are declared unemployed. This was in the month of November. I think the figures will be substantially reduced following the coming into effect of the seasonal benefits on December 1. What is the reason for the gap? Under the present law too many Canadians are not covered because of the fact that the present plan is not universal in scope. Many of those unemployed are not eligible for various reasons. They may be unemployed school teachers or unemployed politicians. In any event, they are not eligible for unemployment insurance. The Leader of the Opposition asked what we intend to do about this situation. We will be introducing a very progressive bill that will remove these inequalities.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Has a study been conducted to ascertain approximately how many of the more than 70,000 persons are ineligible for unemployment insurance because they do not qualify under existing conditions or have not worked the required amount of time this year?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: Under the present Unemployment Insurance Act, Mr. Speaker, eligibility is fairly stringent. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition will be happy to know that under the proposed legislation unemployed persons will be eligible after a period of eight weeks. In addition to helping the bulk of the 77,000 this will also help young people entering the work force for the first time.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: As it is evident that the minister does not intend to take substantial action this winter, does he intend to make any recommendations to close the gap that obviously exists between the Unemployment Insurance Commission and the Department of Manpower and Immigration inasmuch as it is clear that no one in the government has the specific responsibility of looking after the interests of these people?


Mr. Gerard Laprise (Abitibi):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Labour a supplementary question.

As many of the 77,000 unemployed young people are ineligible for unemployment insurance benefits because they have not yet been on the labour market, can the hon. minister tell us whether he intends shortly to take action to enable these young people to live decently, in spite of the opposition expressed by the Progressive Conservative party and the New Democratic party last night in this House?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: Mr. Speaker, I think the only way to remedy the defect in the present Act, which makes it virtually impossible for young people entering the work force for the first time to receive benefits, is to give speedy passage to the new legislation which will-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It seems to me that we are now resuming the debate which raged all day yesterday.



BANKRUPTCY ACT


Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
Does the hon. minister believe he will soon be able to introduce in this House a bill providing for a revision of the Bankruptcy Act as he has been promising repeatedly over several years?


Stanley Ronald Basford: I know the hon. member is very interested in this matter and I am pleased to advise him that I anticipate tabling the report at eleven o'clock on Friday morning.


Gilbert F. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.
In view of the statement made by the Minister of Justice of Quebec to the effect that he wants to fight the Mafia efficiently, does the hon. minister feel he can give the House the assurance that the new legislation will make it possible to fight the Mafia through deeds and not through mere wishes, pious wishes, as has been the case in the past with previous acts?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Over the last two years, since I have been minister, a great many improvements have been made in the Bankruptcy Act-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Ronald Basford: -but I am looking to the report which I shall be tabling on Friday to recommend other ways of revising the Bankruptcy Act to make it more effective in dealing with manipulation of the bankruptcy laws and fraudulent bankruptcies. I hope the report will have very useful recommendations to make on this subject.
December 16, 1970


Gilbert F. Rondeau: May I ask another supplementary question, Mr. Speaker?
Since available figures reveal that the activities of the Mafia have increased more than fourfold over the past five years, does the minister believe his new legislation will be able to do away with that scourge?


Stanley Ronald Basford: I would hope that a revised Bankruptcy Act would prove more effective in dealing with the underworld, in so far as they deal in bankruptcies.



PENITENTIARIES


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: My
question is directed to the Minister of Justice as Acting Solicitor General. It has to do with 13 youths from Calgary who, after a mass trial some weeks ago before Mr. Justice Primrose for the murder of one person, were found guilty of non-capital murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. An appeal has been launched but cannot proceed for a couple of months, and in the meantime they are being incarcerated in Prince Albert penitentiary. This is an unusual course to follow; they should be in a common jail in Alberta. Would the minister have this situation looked into? The members of the families of these young men are deeply concerned that their respective relatives should be in a penitentiary, associating in a top security institution with hardened criminals.


Hon. John N. Turner (Acting Solicitor General):: I will look into that matter immediately, Mr. Speaker.
H:	$



TRANSPORT


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Malpeque):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is the minister in a position to assure the House that the railway companies are not about to greatly increase freight rates on potatoes moved from the Maritime provinces to Montreal, Toronto and other major markets?


Hon. Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Transport):: I beg
your pardon, Mr. Speaker, I did not follow the question. There was a bit of hubbub going on.


John Angus MacLean: I asked the minister whether he could assure the House that the railway companies are not in the process of greatly increasing freight rates on potatoes moved from the Maritime provinces to Montreal, Toronto and other major markets?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: As the hon. member knows, I cannot personally give such an assurance. I have been advised by the railways that there is, I believe, a 4 per cent increase proposed and that this has been discussed with the various companies concerned and with the provinces
Inquiries of the Ministry
concerned. I have a lengthy reply in response to my request to the railways for information on this matter, and I shall be glad to make it available to the hon. member. It may serve to clarify the situation for him.


John Angus MacLean: What action is the government going to take to compensate for the grave damage that will be suffered by the export potato industry because of the extraordinary increase in freight rates on potatoes moving to export points?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Here again, Mr. Speaker, I can only pass on to the House what I have been told by Canadian National, which is to the effect that part, at least, of the increase is due to a change in charges for cars. This change was not in effect before because it was not in effect in the United States, and it is necessary to keep a balance.
Since that time there has, as I understand it, been a charge in the United States and the charge in Canada is comparable. I am advised by the railways that the relative position remains the same. However, I have asked, as I have said, for a more detailed explanation. I have one explanation here now which I will be glad to send to the hon. member, but I will look into the matter further in order to get a more thorough explanation.



ATLANTIC PROVINCES-IMPLEMENTATION OF PREMIERS' RECOMMENDATIONS

Mr. James A. McGrath (St. John's East):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Transport. In view of the fact that the minister has referred to yet another increase in Atlantic freight rates-I think this is the fifth in the last few years-is the minister now prepared to say whether or not he is considering implementing the recommendations of the four Atlantic province premiers on Atlantic transportation?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I have answered this question on previous occasions. I think it is a fact that a great many of those recommendations have already been implemented and others are in the process of being implemented. The committee involving the four Atlantic provinces and the federal government, as well, incidentally, as the province of Quebec, is still meeting on these questions and as individual ones are being studied they are being put into effect, the most recent example being the announcement that will be made in a day or two regarding an increased subsidy in terms of freight movements by truck. That was one of the recommendations. The matter is an ongoing one, but quite a few of the recommendations have already been implemented.



APPLICATION BY UNITED STATES RAILROAD TO MOVE BRITISH COLUMBIA COAL

Mr. William Skoreyko (Edmonton East):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Transport whether he has received a telegram from the United Transportation Union in Edmonton asking him whether he has taken any steps to prevent United States railroads from transporting coal from southern Alberta and British Columbia to Roberts Bank port in Vancouver?

December 16, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received the wire. At least, I am assuming it is in my office because I did see a copy of it which the hon. member was good enough to send to me. I presume reference is being made to the application now before the Canadian Transport Commission made by the Kootenay and Elk Railroad. This is a judicial proceeding now, of course, and until the findings of the CTC are made known no further action by the government is possible.



NATIONAL SECURITY


Mr. David Lewis (York South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he has any information as to the number of searches and arrests, if any, which have been made by the combined police forces in Quebec since the Public Order (Temporary Measures) Act came into effect almost two weeks ago.


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I cannot add to the figures that I have given the House, but I can give the most recent figures, though I cannot segregate them as between the original regulations under the War Measures Act and the Public Order (Temporary Measures) Act which is now in force. As of 1.30 two days ago, December 14, the number arrested was 456; rearrested, 2; released, 408; detained, 46. There is a discrepancy in the figures which can be explained by the fact that there were a few released on bail.


David Lewis: Would the minister be good enough to undertake to obtain a segregration of these figures so that the House may know, when he gets a chance to inform us tomorrow or the next day, how many of these arrests have taken place since the Public Order (Temporary Measures) Act came into force? Would the minister also find out whether any searchers have been made under the new legislation since it came into force?



AIR CANADA


Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonion Wesl):: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Transport inquire from Air Canada and advise the House whether Air Canada has decided to cancel its 747 crew training program in this country and, if so, whether the reason is the level of landing charges made by his department as well as the high level of tax on fuel in Canada, which means that the program will now be carried out in the United States?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: will be glad to look into this matter, Mr. Speaker. I find the second part of the question a little incredible, but I will try to find out for the hon. member.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: That is why I asked the question.



WATER RESOURCES


Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Following the meetings at Yellowknife, and in light of the immediate requirement of coming to decisions regarding the use of the waters in the Peace, Slave and Mackenzie River systems, would the minister take it upon himself to convene a meeting with the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia to decide upon the allocation of use of those waters as between power production and transportation to the Arctic?


J. Judd Buchanan: Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to bring the hon. member's reresentations to the attention of the minister.


Gerald William Baldwin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a supplementary question to the Minister of Transport. In light of the statement that the province of Alberta proposes to place two large power dams on the Peace River, has there been any application made to the minister under the provisions of the Navigable Waters Protection Act? If not, will the minister make certain that there is not a repetition of what took place in regard to the Bennett dam, when no application was made under that Act, in order to protect people living downriver?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, with the hon. member's permission I will take that question as notice.



FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL TASK FORCE STUDY OF PEACE-ATHABASCA DELTA

Mr. Paul Yewchuk (Athabasca):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the minister of fisheries. Could he inform the House when he expects the federal-provincial task force to study the Peace-Athabasca delta problem, and when does the minister expect a report on this study?


Hon. Jack Davis (Minisier of Fisheries and Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, the task force will begin operation early in the new year and I hope we will have a preliminary report before the end of 1971.


Paul Yewchuk: I wonder whether the minister could indicate if included in this study will be the question of power potential as well as pollution of Lake Athabasca?


John (Jack) Davis: The main concern is the environmental one, but power production will be another matter for consideration.
[Mr. Skoreyko.)
December 16, 1970



AIR TRANSPORT


Mr. Colin D. Gibson (Hamilton-Wentworth):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Has the Minister of Transport made any decision on the probable use of short take-off and landing aircraft, sometimes known as STOL aircraft, for linking up regional airports? Second, is it possible that we will soon hear whether the Nordair application in regard to flights between Ottawa and Mount Hope has been granted?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question of short take-off and landing aircraft, I can assure the hon. member that I am meeting with the industry, I believe within the next two days, because the industry has some proposals to make regarding STOL aircraft. On the matter of additional access to Ottawa from Hamilton, I am expecting a decision within a day or two and I have every reason to believe it will be favourable.
*	* He



CANADIAN CONSTITUTION


Mr. Henry Latulippe (Compton):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I wish to direct to the Prime Minister.
Following a decision made by the government of Quebec to introduce a bill to amend section 80 of the Canadian Constitution purporting to do away with the 17 "protected" constituencies without the agreement of the majority of members representing such electoral constituencies, I want to ask this question: has the government of Quebec consulted with the federal government on this issue? If so, has Ottawa agreed in principle that such an amendment be passed?


Right Hon. P. E. Trudeau (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the second part of the question, I can give a negative answer. There was no consultation and so there was no agreement from the central government.
The first part of the question deals with a constitutional and legal matter. Personally, I would think that this is an amendment to the internal constitution of the province of Quebec and that, in accordance with the first paragraph of section 92 of the Constitution, that province would be justified in making this amendment without the consent of the federal government or of the British government.



AIR TRANSPORT


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corpo-
Inquiries of the Ministry
rate Affairs. Now that the overcharging on Canadian fares for international travel has been removed by government involvement in the matter, will he follow up with the necessary action to ensure that compensation will be made available to Canadian consumers who were overcharged by some $4.5 million?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter in respect of which I will do what I did last time-refer it to my colleague, the Minister of Transport, who I am sure will be delighted to look into the problem.



TRANSPORT


Hon. Hugh John Flemming (Carleion-Charloile):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport and I should like to revert to the question of potatoes. Has the minister been advised that the very existence of the potato industry may be threatened, especially in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, by the serious increase not only in transportation rates but also in handling charges, demurrage charges and other associated expenses in getting potatoes to the export market? Will he also examine the situation with a view to attempting to find some means to avert the serious consequences to this industry and our export trade in general which these increased charges may bring about?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has submitted his question in the form of a representation and he has to assume that it will be noted by the minister.



FREIGHT RATE LEVEL IN PRAIRIE PROVINCES-ACTION TO REMOVE DISCRIMINATION

Mr. R. R. Southam (Qu'Appelle-Moose Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, this appears to be a busy day for the Minister of Transport, and I too have a question for him. On November 4 I inquired of the minister what action the government was taking to rectify the problem of discriminatory high freight rates prevailing in western Canada. The minister replied that he had initiated talks with premiers and officials of the Prairie provinces with a view to obtaining their recommendations to improve this situation. Can the minister now advise the House on the progress, if any, that has been made toward solving this very serious problem?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I am advised that as a result of the type of consultation to which I referred in my earlier reply to the hon. member there have been some satisfactory changes or improvements in freight rates in regard, for example, to potash. On the broader question, as a result of representations made by the western provinces a group from my department is proceeding to western Canada as early as we can find an appropriate date convenient to representatives there, and I would assume discussions will continue at that level immediately following the beginning of the new year.

December 16, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS



RETIRED EMPLOYEES' PENSIONS-ACTION TO IMPLEMENT COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATION FOR INCREASE

Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport which is supplementary to a question and answer of last Friday. In view of the fact that Canadian National Railways has refused to consider any negotiations on pension matters with the result that the question is not now on the bargaining table, would he like to revise his answer of last Friday and assure the House that the government will urge the CNR to implement the recommendation agreed to unanimously by this House which called for increases in the pensions of retired CNR employees?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman's intelligence service is a lot faster than mine. I have not been advised personally that this has occurred, but I shall be glad to look into it to see what the situation is now and advise my hon. fr end later.


John Leroy Skoberg: I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Labour. In order to avoid labour strife in the railway movement I wonder whether the Minister of Labour might not lend a hand to the Minister of Transport in order to bring the CNR to its senses in regard-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. Leader of the Opposition.


John Leroy Skoberg: I have a supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member has asked his supplementary question. He cannot ask a further supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: I apologize to the Leader of the Opposition but I believe the hon. member for Moose Jaw is rising on a question of privilege.


John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate being finally recognized after three weeks. At the same time I am wondering whether, in view of the fact Your Honour has allowed other hon. members on a number of occasions to rephrase their questions, I may be given the same consideration?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.



PROPOSED FLOODING OF SKAGIT RIVER VALLEY-REQUEST FOR STATEMENT BY MINISTER

Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Fisheries and Forestry whether he is now in a position to indicate to the House the position his government is taking with regard to the possible flooding of the Skagit
Valley and, if not, will he assure the House that he will make a statement in the House before we recess for Christmas?


John (Jack) Davis: Mr. Speaker, I have made a certain recommendation to the government and action is being taken on it at the present time. I doubt, however, whether it will be possible to make a statement to the House before the recess.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

Mr. Jack Cullen (Sarnia-Lambion):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister's Parliamentary Secretary and at least one member of the cabinet find it necessary to moonlight at the National Arts Centre's Nutcracker Suite ballet, will he give consideration to the early implementation of some of the recommendations of the Beaupre Commission report?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, as far as the government is concerned we hand this problem back to the Members of Parliament, and as far as I am concerned they can go and jump in the "Swan Lake".


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!



NATIONAL SECURITY


Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, if I can get
government members out of Le Lac des Cygnes for a moment I should like to pose a question to the Acting Solicitor General. Can he tell the House whether the RCMP have established the identity of the two Quebec terrorists who have been training with the Feydayins in Palestine?


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for the very civilized way in which he put his question. It has already been publicly reported that two self-proclaimed Quebec terrorists have been undergoing commando or guerrilla training by an underground military organization in the Middle East. To the best of my knowledge these people call themselves Selim-S-e-l-i-m -or Salim-S-a-l-i-m.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Now that the minister has been able to obtain some information from the RCMP in this regard, can he tell the House whether he has any indication of any other countries, other than those in the Middle East, in which terrorists have been trained?


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I do not think it would be in the public interest to speculate any further at this moment on this matter.

December 16, 1970



SAFETY DEVICES TO CONTROL EXHAUST EMISSIONS FROM PROPOSED NUCLEAR REACTORS

J. Michael Forrestall: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Some weeks ago I asked the minister whether Canada had sought any assurance in respect of safety from the United States agencies which are planning to construct at least 20 or perhaps more nuclear generating plants along the shores of the Great Lakes during the 1970's.


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Not that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker.


J. Michael Forrestall: I wonder if the government and the minister would see fit, in view of the alarming studies that are coming to light now as a result of tests made on nuclear generating plants, to find some method of communicating to the United States authorities Canada's concern about the dangers of smoke and exhaust emissions from these nuclear generating plants?


John Carr Munro: I will be pleased to take that suggestion under advisement.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Mr. H. W. Danforth (Kenl-Essex):: I should like to direct my question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is he in a position to indicate briefly now or perhaps by a statement on motions the circumstances regarding the seizure yesterday by United States authorities on Lake Erie of a Canadian fishing tug and crew, and whether representations will be made on their behalf?


Mitchell William Sharp: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Canadian consulate in Cleveland has been following the situation closely. Immediately on learning yesterday of the arrest by Ohio state wildlife authorities of the Canadian tug The Liddle Brothers and its Canadian master and crew the consulate got in touch with Captain Liddle to ensure that he would have the services of legal counsel when the case came into court in Lorain, Ohio, today. Action was also taken to arrange for a consular officer to be present as an observer and to establish that while awaiting trial the Canadian fishermen are released on bail and allowed to stay aboard their vessel.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Labour whether there are any developments he can report to the House coninquiries of the Ministry
ceming the case of the Chateau Laurier and other Canadian National hotels with regard to the payment of minimum wages?


Bryce Stuart Mackasey: I am
pleased to announce that a settlement was reached about an hour ago between the Chateau Laurier and the Canadian Brotherhood of Railway, Transport and General Workers. I hope the settlement will include aboveminimum wages. Because collective bargaining has achieved liveable wages does not change my opinion that this Crown corporation should abide by the Canada Labour (Standards) Code.


TRANSFER OF AIRBRAKE REPAIRING FROM MONCTON TO MONTREAL
Mr. Guy Crossman (Weslmorland-Kent):: My question is directed to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister ask the CNR to reconsider its decision to transfer airbrake valve repair from Moncton to Montreal, which will mean 30 jobs less in the Moncton shops?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: will be very glad to make that representation.




Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: I wish to direct my question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the fact that West Germany has a severe shortage of workers today while Canada has officially some 500,000 unemployed, did the Secretary of State for External Affairs have an opportunity to study the policies in effect at present in West Germany while he was in Europe recently in the hope that some of them may be implemented in Canada to ease our unemployment situation?


Mitchell William Sharp: While I was in Germany I only had the opportunity to visit our base at Lahr. I did not have an opportunity to speak to any ministers about this particular problem.


REGIONAL ECONOMIC EXPANSION
Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland-Colchesier-Hanls):: My question is for the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion. Is the minister now in a position to inform the House if his officials have met or are willing to meet officials of the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce for the purpose of bringing about a business seminar in the Atlantic provinces to assist in the development

December 16, 1970
Inquiries of the Ministry
of expanding markets for Atlantic provinces' businessmen in the United States?


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Regional Economic Expansion):: I will inquire about the situation. I know that contacts have been made but I did not receive any report on the matter.


FEDERAL COMMITMENT RESPECTING CONSTRUCTION OF SUPERPORT AT LORNEVILLE, N.B.
Mr. J. P. Nowlan (Annapolis Valley):: I have a supplementary question for the minister. Has he been able to check with his officials to find out if there has been a federal commitment to the Lorneville projected port in New Brunswick in view of the question I asked on Monday?


Jean Marchand: There was no commitment, Mr. Speaker.


John Patrick (Pat) Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I did not understand the translation. Would the minister repeat his answer, please?


Jean Marchand: My answer was no, there is no commitment at all.


Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Lancaster):: Mr. Speaker, I gave the minister notice before two o'clock of my question in the same connection. Will the minister be announcing before Christmas the Crown corporation in New Brunswick that will be in charge of this development and, if so, when will he announce it before Christmas?


Jean Marchand: I do not intend to make any announcement before Christmas, Mr. Speaker.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


John Leroy Skoberg: My question is for the Minister of Justice in his capacity as Acting Solicitor General. In view of the indication on the CBC feature program "For Your Information" last night on channel 4 in Moose Jaw that city police officers approached a young person to plant drugs in a local residence, and in view of the fact that the RCMP were brought into this investigation and the over-all operation, would the minister say whether or not he would give a full report to the House on the planting of drugs and the entrapment of individuals?


John Napier Turner: I am
not prepared at the moment to accept either the preamble or the substance of the question but I will look into it to see whether it merits a report to the House.



PENITENTIARIES


John Napier Turner: While I have the floor, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I can reply briefly to two questions put to me, one by the hon. member for Skeena in which he asked me whether I knew in my capacity as Acting Solicitor General whether 20 or 25 inmates of the Saskatchewan penitentiary have been moved to the penitentiary in British Columbia. On December 10, 1970, 44 inmates from the Saskatchewan and Manitoba penitentiaries were transferred to institutions in British Columbia. These were normal transfers of selected inmates deemed suitable by classification boards for transfer to the following institutions: William Head institution, Mountain prison, Matsqui institution, and British Columbia penitentiary. They were selected for transfer-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the minister but the hon. member for Cape Breton-East Richmond wishes to rise on a question of privilege.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order and would refer to the precedent established by your own ruling on November 19, 1970, involving the Secretary of State who attempted at that time to answer questions other than the one directly put to him. Mr. Speaker ruled that this was not proper at that time.


Mr. Speaker:: Before I recognize the hon. member for Moose Jaw, may I say that the point raised by the hon. member for Cape Breton-East Richmond is well taken. I have always thought that it does complicate the question period when a minister replying to a question takes the opportunity of having the floor to reply to a question which has been asked previously. In this instance the hon. member for Moose Jaw has a supplementary question. The practice resorted to by the minister does make for a rather disorderly question period.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


John Leroy Skoberg: In view of the fact that the CBC reporter had placed a tape recorder on the young man who was asked to plant the drugs, would the Minister of Justice say whether he would immediately obtain a copy of the tape from the television station for his perusal and then make a report to the House?


John Napier Turner: I will look into all the circumstances of the case. Perhaps at a later date, Mr. Speaker, you can give me the floor to continue my reply to the hon. member for Skeena.


Mr. Speaker:: If the minister wishes to pursue the statement he was making a moment ago, the Chair will recognize him at present.

December 16, 1970



PENITENTIARIES


John Napier Turner: These inmates were selected for transfer because, in the opinion of their classification officers, the inmates concerned would benefit from the training programs available at these institutions.
Perhaps at a later date I may reply to another question asked me by the hon. member for Fraser Valley West. At present I only wish to put on the record that I am ready to answer it now.
Hs sfc sfc



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


Mr. S. Perry Ryan (Spadina):: My question is also for the Minister of Justice in the absence of the Solicitor General. Can the minister inform the House whether the raids carried out by the RCMP last weekend in Toronto were the result of regular investigations or, if not, were they special searches carried out in conjunction with the FBI?


John Napier Turner: I had
better take that under advisement, Mr. Speaker, to ascertain just what raids the hon. member is talking about.


Sylvester Perry Ryan: Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Justice is at it would he also find out if these raids are part of regular investigations against organized crime in Canada?



TRANSPORT


Mr. Walter Deakon (High Park):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Transport. Would the minister exert his influence with the Canadian Pacific and Canadian National Railways to have them permit metro Toronto the use of railway lines for commuter passenger traffic?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It seems to me that the hon. member is making a representation to the minister and he will have to assume the minister will follow it up.
*	* si*



CONSUMER AFFAIRS


Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskaloon-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of the increased prices for gasoline and diesel fuel at the retail level in western Canada in recent months, can the minister inform the
Statistics Act
House if his department or the Combines Investigation Branch is investigating whether there was collusion among the oil companies with regard to these recent price increases?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, the department and the government are taking some satisfaction from the fact that the consumer price index published yesterday remained the same as for the previous month and is running at record low levels. However, with regard to the particular prices the hon. member mentions, the Prices and Incomes Commission is investigating certain price increases, as I indicated to his leader a little earlier in the question period, and I will discuss with the commission whether it is examining these particular price increases.



PROPOSED INTERNATIONAL PROTOCOL-AUTHORITY OF CANADIAN DELEGATES TO CONVENTION

Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe North):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of the fact that the 1961 United Nations Convention on Narcotic Drugs contains a warning to signatory countries against introducing qualifications to the protocol, since this would essentially nullify the original intent of the protocol, will the minister now specify how delegates to the January convention in Geneva can go to that meeting, without any intention of making commitments of a binding nature, unless it is agreed they are not to sign the protocol?


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. I would advise him that what is suggested here is an entirely new protocol on psychotropic substances which does not relate, in the sense that the hon. member is talking about, to the previous protocol.



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed, from Monday, December 14, consideration of the motion of Mr. MacEachen (for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce) that Bill S-2, respecting statistics of Canada, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs.
Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: Mr. Speaker, when I concluded my remarks on Monday evening concerning Bill S-2, I had dealt briefly with some of the

December 16, 1970
Statistics Act
history involved in gathering statistics in Canada. I had pointed out that there was now a need for new types of data gathering in Canada, and that new methods which have been developed will make the gathering of statistics much easier. I also pointed out that greater federal-provincial co-operation would ensue as a result of the bill that we have before us at the present time.
I want to go on now to say something about the provisions in the bill with respect to secrecy in the gathering of statistics in Canada. Perhaps the most serious responsibility of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics over the years has been the obligation of secrecy. Elaborate precautions have always been taken, and must continue to be taken to protect the privacy of the individual. However, after a most careful study of this provision with respect to secrecy, the Dominion Statistician has suggested that there are certain ways in which existing secrecy provisions are unnecessarily rigid, and their very rigidity places an unfair and unnecessary burden upon Canadians. Let me give you an example.
The existing act prohibits disclosure of any information from an individual return, even if it cannot be identified with a particular person or business. This rigidity really does not benefit anyone. The new act that we are proposing suggests that identifiability be made the basis for release or non-release of information. This would bring Canadian practice in line with procedures used around the world.
Another provision in the bill would require that information should not acquire a greater degree of secrecy than it had at its source simply because it is passed on to Statistics Canada, and so a specific provision has been made for the release by Statistics Canada of such informat on if the originating agencies are free under their legislation to release it, and further that they agree to the release by Statistics Canada of that information.
May I also point out that the bill provides that any return made to Statistics Canada, and any copies thereof in possession of the respondent, are not subject to discovery or production in any proceedings in law except proceedings that take place under the Statistics Act itself and relate specifically to the administration of the act. This provision will assist the bureau in obtaining complete and accurate information from respondents, and assure them that even their file copies of that information will be protected and remain secret.
Like all members of this House, Mr. Speaker, I share your concern with respect to this matter of secrecy, with respect to the privacy of Canadians as a fundamental right, and that government should never be in a position to make public personal details of an individual's life. I would like to underline that this principle of confidentiality of returns has been a bedrock principle of the Statistics Act since its passage in 1918, and it remains the bedrock principle of the bill before the House today. However, there are some changes in this regard that are worth noting.
The bill proposes giving the Chief Statistician access to income tax returns of unincorporated businesses, organizations and individuals. Under the Corporations and
Labour Unions Returns Act the Dominion Statistician now has access to corporate income tax returns for statistical purposes. The proposal before you today in this bill, if enacted, would give Statistics Canada access to the returns of individuals and small businesses that are sent in each year to the Department of National Revenue.
This would pave the way for developing new or
improved statistics on consumers, such as income, finances and population movement, without increasing the reporting burden on the public. There is an urgent need for such information shared by government departments responsible for regional economic expansion, poverty programs, planning of all kinds, and consumer affairs.
Hon. members may wish to note that the DBS already has the power to secure this information. It can secure it directly from small businesses and individuals. It can obtain information concerning virtually all matters reported under the income tax law. However, under the existing Statistics Act, Statistics Canada would have to run a separate survey and secure that information itself. The new provision that we are suggesting would mean that these statistics could be compiled directly from National Revenue data by Statistics Canada. The object of this reform, as the object of other changes being made in the act, is simplicity. Every form that is eliminated is a saving of the taxpayer's patience, his money and his time.
* (3:10 p.m.)
For example, right away access to tax returns of unincorporated businesses would relieve 10,000 businesses of certain reports they now fill out. By the time the changes are fully implemented, 80,000 other firms will have the benefit of greatly reduced reporting burdens. I think this is an important and valuable reform.
I want to say something about the name, the "Dominion Bureau of Statistics". The name of a department or organization is an important indication of the function and even attitude of that group. In this light, we are proposing the name "Statistics Canada". En Frangais, "Statistique Canada", un nom simple et moderne, en Anglais ou Frangais, un nom presque bilingue. In just two words, what it does and where it does it. It is an efficient, definite title. I think it will make a great improvement in the name we call our statistics agency.
I would like now to refer to some of the other changes in the bill, some more routine. I think that in doing so and in reference to the bill as a whole, it is important to point out that most of the changes proposed are in relation to the techniques to be used for collecting information and do not empower "Statistics Canada" to collect information previously outside the jurisdiction of DBS.
In view of the rapid changes in our society, it is proposed that a national census of population be taken every five years, the first being in June, 1971. Subsequently, population figures broken down into electoral districts would be available. In addition, it is intended that there should be a population census every fifth year thereafter.

December 16, 1970

Another change of a minor nature but of some importance relates to information from public institutions. The present act exempts from secrecy all operational information about hospitals, universities and similar non-commercial institutions other than financial information. It is proposed to alter the act to permit disclosure of financial information in view of the widespread interest in these publicly supported institutions. I think this is a valuable change. These institutions are public and this information on finances will be of value to people who use this kind of statistic.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that the bill before you aims at providing a better service both for the governments involved and the public. The public will fill out fewer forms and still be assured of their privacy. Although "Statistics Canada" will have access to income tax returns, secrecy standards will be maintained at a high level. Because of diminished duplication and increased co-operation between the federal and provincial governments, statistics will be provided more rapidly with greater accuracy and at lower cost. Some provisions in the act that have proved in the past to be too restrictive have been adjusted while others have been strengthened. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics has been a useful vehicle. As with the family car that has served us well, we have a vague feeling of ingratitude when we have to trade it in but then we greet the new one with the expectation that it is better equipped to meet today's needs. It is in this sp.rit that we welcome "Statistics Canada".
I commend this legislation to the attention of hon. members and look forward to receiving the benefit of their views on this important act.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I cannot share the minister's closing sentiment of welcoming this piece of legislation. There are four features upon which I wish to comment. The first is the penalty feature of the bill; the second is the burden that returns of statistics imposes on business generally; the third is the need to protect the privacy of the individual, the secrecy features on which the Parliamentary Secretary has placed some emphasis, and the fourth is the increased cost of maintaining the statistics branch.
Before dealing with these four matters, however, I should like to say something about what seems to be one of the chief reasons for bringing in this bill: that is, to abolish the titles, Dominion Bureau of Statistics and Dominion Statistician and to substitute the term "Statistics Canada". I can see no good reason for this. It seems to be only a continuation of an attack which has been going on for some years on what we might call traditional titles, particularly those that use the term "Dominion". This is an honourable term and one which in this case has attained a particular status in the eyes of the public. I think it should be maintained. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics is generally referred to as "DBS" and this term is understood by everyone in the country. "Statistics Canada" would be shortened to "SC" which would not mean anything to most people. Those of us who come from British Columbia and Alberta might think that it
Statistics Act
stood for Social Credit. The Parliamentary Secretary will understand this, as will the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Basford), I am sure, who is smiling.
People who are used to saying "Dominion Bureau of Statistics" or "DBS" will find the term "Statistics Canada" rather awkward. I submit it is better to retain the accustomed term and I hope this particular provision will be dropped when the matter is considered in committee. I know that even some government members have doubts about this matter because a four year transitional period is provided. But I, personally, hope that the title "Dominion Bureau of Statistics" will continue indefinitely.
Now, I wish to deal with these other matters, Mr. Speaker, the first being the penalty provision. Fines have been increased and the bill provides that refusal or neglect, just simple neglect to answer any questions or to fill in any returns, results in a fine or imprisonment or both. In view of the fact that the bill lays down that the leaving of the notice at the house of the individual concerned or delivering it by mail to his house or office is sufficient to impose an obligation on he individual or company concerned, I think this is a doubtful proposition. At the present time, as everyone in the House knows, you can never be sure whether the letter you mail will arrive at its destination. You do not know how soon it will get there. In view of the difficulties we have experienced with mail deliveries, I think the proposal to increase fines for neglecting to fill in some of these returns is a very doubtful one. When the bill comes before the committee, the penalty features of it will need be examined.
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
The next matter I wish to refer to is the constantly increasing multitude of forms and returns which businesses, and particularly small businesses, are required to file. I have received complaints about this matter for years. I have learned that some comparatively small businesses employ a man who does practically nothing except see that these numerous returns are filed. The Parliamentary Secretary made a good deal of the fact that he hopes to reduce the number of these returns. I hope that can be done. The tendency for years past has been in the opposite direction. I am afraid that unless the number of returns can be reduced, there will be a tendency for more and more information to be required for more and more purposes. In many cases those who fill out these returns are quite convinced that the information they are required to give is useless and serves no practical purpose. This aspect will also need to be considered. We shall need indications that are more definite than any we have had so far to show what means are to be instituted to prevent the continuing increase in the number of forms and returns which businesses, and especially small businesses, have to file.
The next matter I wish to raise is the necessity of protecting the privacy of returns. In other words, I am about to deal with the secrecy feature of the returns. One provision of this bill would allow access to individual income tax returns. That has not been possible before.

December 16, 1970
Statistics Act
There is undoubtedly a considerable danger that the secrecy of those returns will be impaired by that access which is to be granted by the bill. Despite existing provisions for punishment of those who give out such information without authorization, a certain amount of leakage of such information is perhaps almost inevitable. Therefore, making an individual's income tax return available to Dominion Bureau of Statistics personnel will, I think, bring with it a very considerable danger. The danger is that there may be a breach of the secrecy to which an individual is entitled so far as his own private affairs and private business are concerned. It is said that this change is being made so that it will be unnecessary for the small businessman to fill in the many returns he has had to fill in in the past. I hope that proves to be the case. As I said before, this certainly must be looked into and corrected. I am very much afraid that any advantage which might be secured would be more than offset by the danger of the leakage of such information. This is a matter about which I think the committee will need to be reassured.
The bill also provides for the exchange of statistical information with the provinces, and this, again, is justified on the basis that it may reduce the number of returns, that it will prevent overlapping, and that it will lead to economies. I hope that will be the case. I say again that in such provision there is inherent the danger that there will be a leakage of information which is not justified. The provision presents a danger with regard to the secrecy of information and impinges on the privacy of individuals. It is a dangerous provision and is one more matter which I think needs be looked at very carefully.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is the matter of the cost of gathering statistics to be considered. This cost has been increasing constantly at a rapid rate. I am afraid this will continue. One provision of the bill calls for a census every five years, instead of every ten years, as is the case now. It is true that in the Prairie provinces of western Canada there has been a census every five years instead of the regular decennial census. If the bill passes, there is to be a nation-wide census every five years. There will be a very considerable increase in cost in this area alone. In addition, the constantly increasing demand for more statistical information on the part of all sorts of departments of government is likely to lead to greater and greater costs so far as the gathering of statistics is concerned. It seems to me that we need to sift pretty thoroughly all the information which it is said is being required at present, and all the numerous forms and returns which people are being asked to submit. We should eliminate a considerable number of them.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I express the hope that the matters I have mentioned will be dealt with fully when the bill is given committee study.


Mr. Max Saltsman (Waterloo):: Mr. Speaker, although few will deny the importance of statistics-after all, we use them on both sides of the House for our own purposes-there is a growing doubt whether our present method of compiling statistics is really serving the needs and purposes of our present day society. May I point out
some of the difficulties which I think exist in our system, how this bill proposes to deal with some of them and the extent to which it does not meet some of these purposes.
First of all, the whole system is much too secret. Second, it does not reflect any real human condition. Statistics often bear no relation to how people feel about certain things or to the advantages or benefits people derive from certain actions. Third, much of the information available is not related to the kind of information that is needed by those who are active in politics and by the public generally for the purpose of political decision making.
Let us look at the matter of secrecy. The bill proposes to touch on one of the sacred aspects of our system, the income tax return, and allow information compiled pursuant to the Income Tax Act to be made available to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. Although it is said that such information will be confidential within that bureau, this really is not good enough. A provision such as that will not meet the kind of situation we face. For example, many researchers who need access to information are not able to obtain it as a result of the secrecy surrounding much of the information collected by DBS. More important than the researchers is the public.
There is a growing feeling that many of the things we once thought should be secret ought no longer to be secret. We make a great fetish about secrecy, yet we are becoming an open society. We know how well other members of the society are doing financially, or in other ways. That remark applies fairly obviously to Members of Parliament. Many of the affairs, especially the financial affairs, of Members of Parliament are well known and hotly debated by the public. That is the way it should be. No one will argue that members of Parliament should raise their salaries and give themselves other benefits in secret. The public should have this information. No one will seriously suggest that salary increases for people in the public service should be made in secret. Public servants, firemen, policemen and millions of wage earners in this country negotiate openly between labour and management. The results of the negotiations are published in the newspapers, and are followed closely by the public. Everyone knows about negotiations with hockey players.
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
The public is becoming increasingly aware of what is happening in our society with respect to all occupations. Where does the question of secrecy arise? It arises in the minority of cases, not the majority. The financial affairs of a very few people in our society are hidden from the public gaze. The public should have information about some areas in order to make political decisions based on that information.
I wish to explain my earlier remark that the collection of statistics does not reflect the human condition. Many people have the view that it is only necessary to collect statistics for specific purposes, such as making decisions with regards to the market. By that I mean cold facts regarding the amount of investment to be made or pro-

December 16, 1970

jections with regard to machinery and other items. Contrary to the belief that statistics serve only the purposes of government, statistics are increasingly benefiting the business community. The greatest pressure for increasing statistical information is from the business community. They require this information in order to make better and more farsighted decisions.
No indication is given as to the actual cost of goods. Figures are quoted for labour, overhead and equipment. Very little is said about the pollution caused by the production of goods, the cost to the public and the utility standard. I recognized the fact that it may be difficult to provide this information to the public, but that does not make it less desirable. It certainly would not be impossible. The gross national product is no longer a sure indicator of the progress being made by a society. What do we gain if the gross national product increases but in the process we create an unequal distribution of income, disparities between one part of the country and another and if the air and rivers of our environment are polluted? If this happens, is it necessary to increase the gross national product? These figures are no longer adequate for today's society. In addition to the gross national product, there must be other indicators.
I am not suggesting that the statistics presently being collected should be discontinued. They are useful. However, they must be read in conjunction with another statistical index which at the present time is not available. When the Statistics Act is being changed after 15 years, such a provision should have been included. The bill does not deal with this matter.
Statistics do not tell the whole story. One of the great shortcomings is that they do not consider the great contribution of women who choose to work at home instead of in the business world. For all practical purposes, these women just do not count from a statistical point of view. The contribution which they make to their families and the welfare of their children is not reflected in any index because they do not contribute to the gross national product. Although there may not be a practical need for this kind of statistical information, there is a great emotional and psychological need for this information in our society. It should not be argued that only those women engaged in a commercial undertaking are contributing to the family or to society. For many years women's organizations have spoken most eloquently of the need for including in a statistical index the contribution made by homemakers to the national economy.
Many statistics at our disposal are inadequate and unrelated to political decision making, both from the point of view of the politicians and the voters of this country. During the discussions on the white paper on taxation, many arguments were made regarding the comparison between taxes in the United States and Canada. To my knowledge, the only figures used in making this comparison were the tax rates and base tax at certain levels. This was very misleading. It did not take into account the improved social benefits in Canada which are provided through our tax system. Nor did it take into account the fact that Canadians have greater security
Statistics Act
and more safety. In order to provide these benefits, we have had to spend more money to improve our environment. We have shown a greater concern with regard to redistributing income in order to deal with the core problems of poverty and discontent.
However, as we have pointed out on many occasions, not enough is being done. At least Canada has made more of an attempt to do this than other countries. The result is a safer and happier environment than in other countries. This situation is not reflected in the statistics. All that is shown is a cold calculation of one rate of tax against another rate of tax. This is a totally inadequate comparison. Instead of stark taxation tables, Canadians are more interested in their quality of life, the amenities and securities which society provides. That is one area.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
Again, when we deal with the question of unemployment, the unemployment figures, aside from whether they are measured directly or on a seasonally adjusted basis, are misleading because they understate the number of those at work, thus minimizing the seriousness of the problem. This is perhaps not a matter of so much concern to us when there is full employment, but it is certainly a matter of concern when a serious degree of unemployment is understated in the statistics. This situation comes about in many ways. It arises because some people leave the labour market. Others become marginal or part-time workers and their activities are not reflected in the statistics. Many work shorter time, and though this factor does appear in the DBS figures to some extent, the statistics are not co-ordinated so as to give an exact picture of the horror of the unemployment situation. The statistics should be sufficiently accurate to give clear guidance both to governments which are making decisions and to those who are influencing decisions in the House of Commons and elsewhere.
I should like to refer, also, to the situation which arose while the committee on consumer prices was holding its hearings in 1966, and the merry chase which was given to us by people in possession of statistics, officials of the Department of Agriculture and so on. I had a feeling they would have been able to save us six months' work had they been able to produce the figures we requested. On many occasions we asked representatives of a department: "What is happening to prices?", and they would tell us with a high degree of accuracy what the situation was. We would then ask how these compared with prices to the consumer, and they replied "We do not know." This was the responsibility of another department. It may be, indeed, that all they knew was the narrow picture they got in their own departments. But if they did not know, then, surely, someone else knew. It was not until we had spent many months of searching that we began to receive statistical tables showing the relationship between these things. I feel that if someone in the DBS had possessed the authority or the willingness to provide us with this information it would have been most valuable. The Bureau, in turn, might say that politicians did not have the wit to ask for it. It may be there were occasions on which we did not have the wit to ask, but

December 16, 1970
Statistics Act
there were others when we did ask for information and did not get it. The experience was a frustrating one.
Another subject of enormous importance to Canada is the whole question of foreign ownership. We possess a lot of information about foreign ownership now, information about investment, information about imports and exports, information as to how much of the funds of foreign companies is raised outside Canada. Most of this information exists inside the Bureau of Statistics in one form or another, yet no one in the Bureau, to my knowledge, has ever taken this information and put it together in a meaningful pattern so that we could look at it and understand all the implications. We had to wait for the Watkins Commission before we could get some of this information. It depended on researchers like Kari Levitt; we had to wait for people like Ed. Safarian to compile his study. In short, the country had to wait for years for private writers to put this information together. And not all the information they required was available to them. They had to send out questionnaires and carry on a large amount of private research. In other areas, they simply had to guess.
One would have thought that in connection with an issue as important as foreign ownership those responsible for setting guidelines affecting the DBS would have shown greater interest in making sure this information was available. One can only reach the conclusion that the minister or the policy makers responsible have never wanted the Bureau to be as comprehensive in its studies as I have suggested; they have been satisfied to see the Bureau do the least amount of work that would get by; they have never set out a program encouraging the DBS to look for information which would be helpful in the future. The tendency, I suggest, has always been to under-rate the work of the Bureau and to ask that it spend a little less money.
It seems we have something against the taking of statistics. The Bureau has always been an adopted child; it has never had full status in the overall picture of government and public functions. I have had some critical things to say about the DBS but I should make it clear that this criticism is not directed toward the personnel of the Bureau. I have met many of them on numerous occasions and I think they are a most competent group of people. They really do a good job. The problem does not lie with them. When I have asked them for certain information which they were not compiling, they have said: Well, we do whatever we can within the budget allotted to us. The real responsibility lies with the policy makers in the government for not having set before the Bureau the kind of tasks which, I am suggesting, are essential in a modern society.
My hon. friends and I will be supporting the bill because it does make some improvements and it does move in the direction we think should be taken. For example, it makes available taxation statistics which we believe to be important because there is a great deal we do not know and shall not know until we have access to taxation statistics. For example, we do not know how much it costs to go on with this commercialized society,
so dependent upon product differentiation, in which companies incur enormous selling costs-and advertising is only one of these costs-which are not all reflected in the price of the product. I have asked what it all comes to-I am thinking of such things as depreciation allowances, and so on-but I have never received a satisfactory answer. These are important questions when we begin to talk about tax reform. I suspect that selling costs, depreciation allowances and the various fringe benefits available to business run into hundreds of millions of dollars each year and represent tax benefits which have never been visible to the general public but which should be visible to the general public. This part of the bill will be of some assistance and I hope it will be used for the purpose I have indicated.
# (3:50 p.m.)
I also hope that the minister responsible for DBS will show a little imagination, come into the modern world and see the need for the additional kind of information that I have suggested today. Perhaps eventually, though not waiting 15 years, he will bring in a bill which reflects the changing mood of society and the need to measure quality as well as quantity.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington):: Mr. Speaker, I have a few words to say about this very important bill. I admit I have not given the bill detailed study, but a very important principle is at stake here. This is why I do not think we should move too fast in sending it to committee. I refer to the matter of secrecy.
People have always felt that their personal income tax returns were private, that no one other than officials of the Department of National Revenue should have access to the file. In this bill, the government is asking that people employed by DBS be given access to all income tax files in the Department of National Revenue, not only the files of corporations and small businesses, but of individuals. This is one more encroachment on the privacy of the individual, another case of how far the camel has got his nose into the tent.
I want to express my opposition to this abrogation of a very fundamental principle. We are going to give people who work at DBS the right to take income tax files of individuals. These files will be in the area offices, will be transported to DBS offices where the personnel will take what they want from them, and then be transported to national revenue. We do not know what will happen to them during transportation. It is all very well for the government to say there is secrecy, but I do not think that the secrecy will be all that dependable.
I think there should be some alternative course proposed. I feel that the government would be pursuing a much better course by setting up within the Department of National Revenue a statistics branch, if I may call it that, which would provide the information that is required. Under the present arrangement I can see a conflict arising between departments and staffs. There will be no end to the problems that may arise. I suggest the files should be kept where they belong, namely in the Department of National Revenue. A principle is involved
[Mr. Saltsman.l
December 16, 1970

here, and I am very upset about almost anybody being given the right to look into matters as personal as income tax files. That is all I have to say about that particular provision.
I am also upset over the change in the name. We have had the name "Dominion Bureau of Statistics" ever since the act was passed. DBS are initials that are understood by people in all parts of the world. The government now wants to drop the "Dominion" and rename the bureau "Statistics Canada". I think this is the only reason this bill has been brought in, since very few other changes are proposed in it. I am concerned about relinquishing this old, reliable, well-understood nomenclature, one that will be missed, I am sure, by most Canadians.
I also hope that the changes provided here will mean better co-ordination and co-operation with the provinces so that small businesses and corporations will be asked to provide less material than is the case at the present. Like the hon. member for Calgary Centre (Mr. Harkness), who has had many letters on this point, I too have received complaints from small businessmen about the great amount of work and effort they have to put into supplying DBS with figures.
One last point about reports made by DBS. Some of them are three or four years old when published, and in this computer age there is no excuse for this. I suggest that unless reports are reasonably current we might just as well forget about them.
I will not take any further time of the House. May I reiterate what I said at the beginning, that I am very concerned about inroads being made into people's privacy, particularly in the area of personal income tax returns.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have to bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary and the House that the Parliamentary Secretary has already spoken in this debate. The Standing Order provides that the mover of a substantive motion may speak a second time, thus closing the debate. The hon. member is not the mover of the motion, and while this may be a technicality; perhaps it would be better to obtain the consent of the House to allow the hon. member to close the debate. Is this agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: Mr. Speaker, in closing the debate, I want to make a few comments on some of the excellent points that have been made by hon. members thus far. The points made pose the kind of problems that the government faces so often, where members of the opposition take an extreme view on the one side, and other members of the opposition take an extreme view the other way. Then, the government must somehow find a position between the two that is satisfactory to all Canadians.
I think the question of secrecy is an excellent example of this. The hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. Saltsman) suggested that we have far too much secrecy, whereas
Statistics Act
the hon. member for Wellington (Mr. Hales) and the hon. member for Calgary Centre (Mr. Harkness) declared that under the new arrangements we will not have enough secrecy. I want to say a few words about the particular subject of access to income tax returns. If I can describe the process that is envisioned, it might serve to reassure members of the Conservative party with regard to this point.
The proposal is that members of Statistics Canada who will be concerned with this particular aspect of the operation will go to the Department of National Revenue which will set up a special department under secrecy provisions more rigid than exist in that department at the present time. Data will be gathered on computer tapes and transferred in bulk to Statistics Canada for use at that centre as bulk information. The likelihood of an individual's return ever being made public is almost nonexistent. The conditions of secrecy under which personnel from Statistics Canada will operate will be, if anything, more rigid than the conditions under which personnel in the Department of National Revenue now operate.
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)
In examining this bill for the first time, I was as equally concerned as are other hon. members over this point. I examined it very carefully before assuring myself that the provisions of secrecy which Canadians enjoy at the present time would be preserved. I feel I can assure hon. members that this important provision is being considered very carefully and that satisfactory action is being taken in that regard.
The hon. member for Calgary Centre (Mr. Harkness) made a point about the constantly increasing burden on businessmen in Canada to provide statistical information to the nation. I share his concern over this. I have talked to many businessmen who have experienced this burden and are concerned about the cost to themselves and their businesses of supplying this information, and I want to suggest to him that some of the most important provisions of this bill are designed to improve that situation. That is exactly what a good part of the bill is all about, to make it easier and cheaper for Canadian businessmen to fulfil the obligations they have to provide that information, which they use as well as governments, for the benefit of all Canadians. I think that is an important improvement accomplished by this bill.
The hon. member also suggested that there have been cost increases. I suppose there will be cost increases in the future as the nation grows, as business grows, as the gross national product grows and as the necessity to provide additional services grows. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics is doing everything it can to modernize and to use advanced methods such as computers wherever possible to simplify the gathering process in order that costs will be kept down and the greatest value for the dollar will be obtained. On the other hand, the hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. Saltsman) suggested that perhaps we do not have adequate statistics in Canada. He went on to say that the quality of statistics we have is not adequate.

December 16, 1970
Statistics Act
The hon. member for Wellington (Mr. Hales) said he felt the reports were coming out too late. These are matters of a technical nature but they are being improved. I want to assure hon. members of the House that Statistics of Canada is constantly improving its ability to provide statistics of a more up-to-date nature and to provide them more quickly. It has an enviable record in this regard. If you consider these statistics provided on any subject by Statistics of Canada, you will find that reports are coming out more frequently and earlier after the completion of the gathering of that information than they have in the past.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What is Statistics of Canada? We have no Statistics of Canada at the present time.


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: The hon. member has referred to the change of the name of the organization from DBS to Statistics Canada. He has suggested it is going to be confusing for those of us in western Canada who are familiar with the initials "SC", meaning Social Credit. I know when he goes to the airport at Calgary and gets on Trans-Canada Air Lines, I mean an Air Canada aircraft to come here he must find it difficult to leave behind those confusing views we get from the Social Credit government in western Canada, but I am sure even he has become used to the name Air Canada.


An hon. Member:: We won't juggle the books the way they have.


Bruce Andrew Thomas Howard: An hon. member says, "We won't juggle the books the way they have". I am sure the hon. member has not yet found the wrong airline since they changed the name from Trans-Canada Air Lines to Air Canada, and I am sure he has found it quite useful and easy to be serviced by that excellent airline. I am sure he will get used to the idea of Statistics Canada. This will not be an earth-shaking change but an improvement and a streamlining.
In concluding, let me concur with the remarks of the hon. member for Waterloo who said his experience with the people of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics has been most satisfactory, that they are most competent in their work, are co-operative and have performed an excellent service to Canada. I want to endorse that view and say that these changes we are proposing today will make it possible for them to do their work even better.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the House ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the motion agreed to?


Gerald William Baldwin: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs.


Stanley Ronald Basford: that Bill S-5, respecting weights and measures, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social
Affairs.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I know there is a feeling in the House to deal with legislation rather quickly and get it to the committees before the Christmas recess. I will be very brief in what I have to say on this bill, leaving the details to be discussed by the committee.
The bill before the House this afternoon should be regarded as a companion piece of legislation to the consumer packaging and labelling bill, Bill C-180, which is part way through the second reading stage and which we hope to discuss in a very short time. The remarks made in respect of one of these bills would apply to the other.
Federal responsibility for weights and measures is clearly set out in section 91 of the British North America Act. Just let me give a short history. The first weights and measures act passed by this Parliament was passed in 1873, and the present act which is being rev.sed or replaced by this legislation dates from 1951. Legislation of this kind is very basic to consumer protection and the purpose of this act is to ensure that the purchaser shall receive just measure, whether he is buying a commodity that is sold by weight, by volume, by length, by area or even, by time.
The units of measure used in Canada have been established by several different pieces of legislation, and many of these provisions and units established under them have been and are now in need of redefinit on. It is considered more practical and efficient, while making these changes, to bring them all up-to-date, and to bring all of the units of measure used in Canada under one central piece of legislation, namely Bill S-5.
Accordingly, this bill sets out to repeal the Electrical and Photometric Units Act, the Length and Mass Units Act, and the Weights and Measures Act of 1951. All of these measurement acts will be incorporated under this one bill, as well as all the special features of these three acts. They will be incorporated, we hope, under the new weights and measures act of 1971.
The bill sets forth all the units of measurement which are legally in use in trade in Canada. It defines these units in scientific and legal terms in accordance with the latest internationally accepted system, the Systeme International. This system is a set of precise measurements adopted by the last general conference on weights and measures, and is now in use throughout the world. It represents a considerable improvement since the days of long ago when the yard, for example, was measured by the length of King Henry's arm, and the time of Confederation when the legal yard in Canada was a piece of metal manufactured in England and deposited with the Speaker of the Senate. I do not know whether he was
December 16, 1970

thought to be a better custodian of the yard than the Speaker of this House, and 1 am not sure what reason-


Gerald William Baldwin: Are you talking about King Henry VIII?


Stanley Ronald Basford: We have not got to him yet. The customary foot-pound units with which we are all familiar and the metric units will remain valid for use in Canada under this bill. I do want to assure hon. members, because there were some press reports which came out when the bill was before the Senate, that may leave the wrong impression, that the usual or official foot-pound and Canadian units we are used to cannot be curtailed without specific reference back to Parliament. There was a suggestion that this bill forced the introduction of the metric system. That is not so at all. It makes the use of the metric system legal in Canada, but it also retains the customary Canadian units which cannot be taken away without an act of Parliament.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)
The fundamental principle of the bill is that it makes it an offence to give short weight or measure. It provides that scales or any other type of measuring device to be used in trade must be of a type which has been tested and approved by the standards branch of my department. Certain devices now widely used in trade, such as parking meters and coin operated liquid dispensing machines, were not in general use when the last Weights and Measures Act was passed, but will be brought within the ambit of the act so as to permit us to ensure that these new devices give a fair and just measure.
In the past few years fraudulent practices connected with fuel oil deliveries and with odometers on automobiles have come to light, and this legislation, as it is being revised, will permit us to control those practices. The bill will also enable us to modernize our inspection program, using more sophisticated sampling techniques. Periods of equipment inspection will be set corresponding to the demonstrated need for testing based on a modernized statistical analysis of inspection data. The details of these features will, I am sure, be studied in great depth in detail in the Committee on Health and Welfare if this bill is referred to the committee.
This bill is closely related to, but quite distinct from, the packaging and labelling bill C-180 which I mentioned earlier. The latter bill is concerned primarily with prepackaged goods which are clearly identifiable as consumer goods. The packaging and labelling act is designed to establish the information about a consumer product that must be on a label or package, including a clear expression of the weight or volume of that consumer product. On the other hand, the weights and measures bill that is before the House covers the devices used in determining the weight or volume of all goods used in trade. It covers goods which are not prepackaged and are not covered by other legislation but are weighed or measured in stores, such as yard goods or fresh fish. It also covers goods which are sold at the non-retail level to wholesalers or to contractors or to others who buy in bulk supply. In other words, this bill is designed to protect the purchaser
Weights and Measures Act
at every link in the chain from the producer of raw materials, to the retailer, and ultimately to the consumer, to ensure that they all receive full and just measure.
With that brief introduction, I move the motion that the bill be referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs where, I am sure, the bill will be studied with great care by hon. members.


Gerald William Baldwin: We will not say too
much at this stage, although we will make sure that when this bill gets into committee it will be thoroughly and closely examined. I was glad to see that, unlike the last bill, the minister did not suggest that this be known as weights and measures Canada. At least he is going to draw the line somewhere. I see the Minister of Labour 'Mr. Mackasey) here. The reason I mention that fact is I have heard his department and that of the Minister of Manpower and Immigration (Mr. Lang) will be put together and will be henceforth known as Unemployment Canada. But we will wait for that.
The bill gives, of course, a great deal of power to the minister. It used to be said many years ago that the sun never set on the British Empire. I am not faulting the minister because ambition is a great thing to have, and I am glad to see young men with laudable ambition. But it will not be too long before we will be able to say that in Canada the sun never sets on the empire of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Basford).


Stanley Ronald Basford: And with my head, it sure shines.


Gerald William Baldwin: From toys to consumers, he does not migg a thing in between. I remember him from the days when he was a struggling but very effective chairman of a committee which was inquiring into these matters. From that small start, this great monolithic empire has been built. We will continue to watch the minister with exceeding interest because of this fact.
As the minister said, this bill has to be read in conjunction with the packaging and labelling bill. There are a few aspects in the bill with which I will deal. First, there is the very wide power of regulation that allows the Governor in Council to regulate exemptions, conditionally or unconditionally, from the application of the bill. This is all set out in clause 10. I will not go into the clause except to point out that it is a clause of almost two and a half pages with about 22 or 23 different provisions. It points up an objection which I have been making in this House, supported by my party, that over and over again we have a government which enacts enabling legislation-and this is little more than enabling legislation-and asks the House to give it very substantial grants of authority to act by way of regulation.
I do not think there is any doubt that 90 per cent of the acts and actions of this government which affect the lives, fortunes and property of the ordinary people in Canada come about as a result of regulation, order in council, or ministerial decree. I have spent three or four years crusading on this, and last year we got through an excellent report of an all party committee recommending
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December 16, 1970
Weights and Measures Act
some very substantial and salutary precautions which can be taken, including a proposal in a bill and the establishment of a committee of this House. Right at the beginning of this session a bill was brought in, namely, the Statutory Instruments Act. It was defective in that it did not go anything like the distance which the committee recommended, but at least it was a modest start. The bill has been shelved, packaged and put away out of sight. Here we are having ministerial grants of authority brought forward in legislation of this kind and put in the hands of this government. I say it is a dangerous situation. We will not hold up the bill on that account, but let me tell the minister that I will seize every opportunity which comes up to point this out in the hope the media of this country will take into consideration the dangerous trend which is developing.
The tragedy is that it is only when we have lost these very important rights that we find out about them and start to complain. By then, it is way beyond the time for complaining; it is far too late. It may well be that before we are finished, we may take a stand. I say to the minister, and to his colleagues, that if the government persists in bringing forward enabling legislation which will operate mainly through the regulatory device, one of these days we in this party will take a stand and say, "you will not pass the bill until the House is given an opportunity to debate in an effective way the statutory regulations Act and to establish a parliamentary committee". We will not do it this time, however.
I am glad to see the Government House Leader is here. I hope he will listen to what I have to say and will take note that there will be an occasion, when a bill is brought forward by this government which, in our opinion, gives far too much power to the government to act by order in council, when we will say "no, you will not pass the bill". I want to make it quite plain that this warning is being given in good faith.
I also want to draw attention to the number of inspectors who are needed for the implementation of the bill. When he replies now, or if he replies in committee that will do just as well, I want the minister to answer one question. Perhaps a Parliamentary Secretary could reply for him, and we know that a Parliamentary Secretary can be most effective in giving replies. Are the inspectors who will operate under this legislation the same inspectors as those who will operate under the companion bill, the packaging and labelling bill?
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)


Stanley Ronald Basford: Yes.


Gerald William Baldwin: Now, I wish to make some comment on the wide power of inspectors to freeze a business for 60 days or more, as stipulated in clause 39 of the bill. There is no question that an inspector has the right under that clause to put a business effectively out of operation for 60 days, and this is something at which we must take a good look. There will be an onus on the minister to justify that clause.

I also point out that the bill purports to create a very substantial number of new offences. I quite agree that if you are going to have an effective piece of legislation you must have sanctions in it, but every time a bill purports to create ten, 12 or 15 new offences for which people may be summonsed, may be convicted, and may be put in jail, it is our duty in this House to examine it closely. I hope that when we get into the committee the minister will seize the opportunity to justify the need for all these provisions. The same remarks apply to the way in which the evidence is going to be introduced.
I will not take up any more of the time of the House, except to tell the minister that we are not going to object to the principle of the bill. We do not think the bill is going to be a great improvement. We think it does validate and bring up to date a number of ideas which probably are needed in legislation of this kind. We have no great objection to it, but we will examine the details with some care in committee. I hope that there the minister will have all the answers. He usually gives some answers in this House, but not the kind of answers with which we are happy. I hope he does better when we get into committee.


Winona Grace MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, we in this party are in complete agreement with the principle of the bill as outlined by the minister. He indicated that its main purpose is to make it an offence for a person to give short weights and measures. Putting it more positively, its purpose is to ensure that the consumer receives just measure for what he or she pays. I think this is an excellent objective.
As the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) has said, I do not think we need to say a great deal about the bill at this stage because obviously it is a very detailed and technical piece of legislation. It is essentially the kind of legislation that we must send to a committee where we can have an across-the-table discussion and get down to the details. However, there are just a few points I would like to raise in connection with it in a general way at this time.
I think the minister has said that this is really a companion piece of legislation, in the sense of being in the same context, to the packaging and labelling bill. In a way, its purpose is also to prepare for the introduction of the metric system in Canada. The minister pointed out the history of our weights and measures legislation, dating from a long time ago, all of which indicates that we are quite a long way behind many other countries in adopting the use of the metric system. I feel that Canada has been at a considerable disadvantage in many ways as a result of being so slow to adopt the metric system. Perhaps, as in so many other cases, our slowness has been because of the reluctance of the United States to adopt the metric system. As a result, we have been lazy in moving toward adoption of it.
This bill really includes three systems, both the metric system and the customary Canadian system of weights and measures, to say nothing of one part which includes land measurements from the old days of seigniorial tenure in the province of Quebec, with pied, arpent,
December 16, 1970

perche, etc. It is novel to find all these included in a temporary developing situation, but I would like the minister to give some indication of the length of time that all these things will remain lumped together. I would like to hear from the minister his estimate of how long it will take to move from the use of the customary Canadian system to the use of the metric system.
At this point, I wish to recall something that may assist him. In our history books we have read that on January 1, 1922, the city of Vancouver and, I believe, the whole province of British Columbia, switched from driving on the left-hand side of the road to driving on the right-hand side. A great deal of preparation had to be made for that switch. But when the switch was made, it was made in a single day. People were well prepared for it, and as a result the confusion it caused was minimal. I hope that the period during which we will be struggling with both the metric and the customary systems in Canada will not be long drawn out and that, however we decide to move, we undertake the move as quickly as possible. I am glad that the minister is taking the first steps to move us into adoption of the metric system.
During the committee hearings, I shall ask how long the public will be undergoing preparation for the change to the metric system. I do not believe we should muddle along indefinitely using both systems. There is a need for consumer education in this respect. The committee on prices, which the minister so ably co-chaired several years ago, vigorously insisted on the need for consumer education. I hope he will now alert the public to become familiar with the terms of the weights and measures used in the metric system. This brings up another point.
Those who will be living with the metric system in Canada are today's school children. On this point I do not want the minister to hide behind the constitution and say that, unfortunately, education is a provincial matter about which he can do nothing. I point out that consumer education is the job of the minister and his department, and in my view his department should be considering ways and means of introducing consumer education at a lower level than that of adults who have become fossilized in the customary system of weights and measures that we are presently using. I think that the minister, agile and able as he is in so many ways, particularly with respect to details, should be able to discover a way by which consumer education can be directed at young, unformed minds so that in later years they will be able to use the metric system to the best advantage.


An hon. Member:: What about the unformed minds in the Liberal party?


Winona Grace MacInnis: I would prefer not to touch on that for the moment.
The hon. member for Peace River questioned whether there will be a need for all these inspectors. One way to keep down the number of inspectors is to increase the amount of public education. Well informed housewives will reduce the need for a large number of inspectors. I scarcely think the minister and the government believe it
Weights and Measures Act
a good idea to keep the public uninformed so that a large number of inspectors may be appointed. The ordinary consumer, well educated and self-interested, would be much more vigilant than any civil servant wandering around and making less interested inspections. These are some of the points we should look at when discussing this bill.	&
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)
As I say, the principle of this bill is a good one if the minister can assure us that we are not just going to add the metric system to our own weights and measures system, leaving it to some future minister to sort out the confusion. I would like to be sure that the present minister wifi see this through, and if he does I think we will have a good bill.


Mr. William Knowles (Norfolk-Haldimand):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks are more in the nature of a question to further underline the remarks already made by the hon member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mrs. Maclnnis). I should like to ask the minister, as we close this debate, if he could give some indication of what progress we have made toward the adoption of the metric system in Canada. The hon. member pointed out some of the factors that are holding us back, one being that the United States is loth to accept this standard. Our manufacturers are at a disadvantage when they undertake contracts for foreign companies and find that the specifications are in the metric system.
it seems to me that we should be moving a little faster m this field, Mr. Speaker. Many of our scientists have already spoken about this as it is the common scientific measurement throughout the world. The system is being taught in schools, but in a theoretical manner. I heartily concur with the suggestion that more steps should be taken to introduce this system of measurement in a practical way. I wonder if the minister could state if his department has taken any steps or conducted any research on how the system should be introduced.
At the present time the United Kingdom is moving to the decimal system of currency and both types of coinage are in circulation in order to facilitate the gradual introduction of the new system. This makes me wonder if we should not be moving in the same direction. Perhaps a good place to start would be to measure gasoline in litres instead of gallons, since everybody buys gas.
That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could indicate what progress is being made.
,, DePuty Speaker: I have to advise the House that if the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
mr. casiora: 1 will be brief, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the remarks of hon. members and, in particular, those of the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) However, I think his remarks can be dealt with more appropriately in the committee. The hon. member who

December 16, 1970
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act
just resumed his seat asked about the metric system. May I say that, of course, we can go into this in great detail in the committee. The bill before the House provides for the use of both systems, the customary foot-pound system and the metric system. The latter is already coming into vogue in some industries in this country.
The position of the government was clearly stated in a white paper that my colleague the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Pepin) tabled in this House last February. This is a very important statement relative to conversion from the foot-pound system to the metric system, and I think we are finally beginning to make progress on this. Let me make it very clear, Mr. Speaker, that there is no doubt in my mind that we should convert to the metric system, and the sooner the better. We should not be debating the question; the discussion should be on how we can convert with the least possible expense and inconvenience. Undoubtedly, there will be expense but we should endeavour to minimize it. It is obvious, however, that because we are a trading nation and a great deal of our market is in the United States and I make this as a general statement-we are going to move to some extent hand in hand with the United States. I detect a growing sentiment for conversion to the metric system in many of the consumer groups in that country. I understand that the United States Congress has a committee which is examining the matter. When I was in Washington last fall and met with the Secretary of Commerce, The Honourable Maurice H. Stans, he was enthusiastic and thought that we should convert. My personal view is that we should convert as fast as we can and that we should be debating how we convert, not whether we should convert.
I think conversion to the metric system would greatly benefit Canadian industry and trade and, from the point of view of my own portfolio, it has great potential for benefiting the consumer, once it is understood in terms of comparison with competing products and the packaging and measurement of products. There are great advantages, Mr. Speaker, and I make that statement in answer to the questions that were asked. I know we will go into it in much more detail in the committee.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the House ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.


[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from Tuesday, November 3, consideration of the motion of Mr. Basford that Bill C-180, respecting the packaging, labelling, sale, importation and

advertising of pre-packaged and certain other products, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.
Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, on November 3, I began to move the second reading of Bill C-180, the consumer packaging and labelling bill. I got half way through my remarks so I should like to finish them now. I regard this bill as one of the most important pieces of consumer protective legislation which I have had the honour to present to this House. I think it represents a fundamental principle to the consumer movement, and it represents great advances in the whole field of consumer packaging and labelling.
When I was speaking on November 3, I drew to the attention of hon. members the great significance of obtaining full, accurate and relevant information about the product from its package and its label. At that time, I reminded the House of what had been said on the subject of packaging and labelling by consumer groups, and by the parliamentary committee mentioned by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin), which Senator Croll and I had the honour of chairing and on which many members of this House served. I reminded the House of the recommendations of that committee and of the recommendations of the Royal Commission under Judge Mary Batten, appointed by the three prairie provinces.
All of these groups made recommendations about the need for change in the laws governing packaging and labelling. In so far as those recommendations can be dealt with by federal legislative or regulatory authority and action, and to the extent that they have not already been attended to in other consumer legislation which I have introduced, the present bill before us reflects the preoccupation and recommendations of those groups. The bill is also in line with proposed or existing legislation in most advanced countries of the world and indeed is ahead of some.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
Having given this background, I should like to turn very quickly, because I appreciate what hon. members are endeavouring to do this afternoon, to the basic principles or basic thrust of the bill. I will leave unsaid a number of things I had wanted to say in order that we may be speedy. If I need to say them, I shall do so when I close the debate and have an opportunity of speaking again. I want to outline very quickly the five basic principles of the consumer packaging and labelling bill. First, this bill is designed to be a comprehensive, omnibus kind of bill. It is designed to provide, over a period of time, a reasonable degree of uniformity with respect to the method of labelling and packaging consumer goods and to overcome the confusing array of labelling requirements which now exist under a whole host of different packaging and labelling regulations and laws.
The second principle of the bill is the provision of full and factual information on labels. This is a fundamental
December 16, 1970

requirement of the consumer movement. It is a fundamental axiom of consumerism that consumers ought to be able to exercise a rational choice. In order for consumers to buy conscientiously in the market place, it is necessary that they be provided with full and factual information. This is the second main principle of the bill. This principle is that the consumer shall have available to^ him full and factual information on labels so that he will have the basis on which to make well informed decisions and well informed and rational choices. This bill provides that all prepackaged products shall bear a quantity declaration, and such declaration shall be in terms of Canadian standard and metric units of weight, volume or length. Count will be permitted where this is the usual practice.
The net quantity declaration of weight, measure or count will appear on the main panel of the package. This declaration shall be easily legible and readily discernible under normal conditions of purchase and the minimum acceptable print size of the declaration will be established by regulation. The name and place of business of the manufacturer, packer or distributor will have to be shown on all packages so that the consumer may readily get in touch with him and make any inquiry or complaint. The commodity must also be identified in terms of its common or usual or generic name or in terms of its function.
The third principle, Mr. Speaker, underlying this bill is the prevention of fraud and deception in packaging and labelling, where these occur by way of non-functional slack fill, which is the technical term for the package which does not have as much in it as people may expect, or misleading depictions and vignettes, or deceptive descriptions of the product, by false advertising or in any other way. That is meant to curb actions which tend to deceive or manipulate the consumer. As hon. members can see, the bill will ban a variety of false and misleading representations on labels, including expressions or depictions which create a wrong impression as to content, origin, quality, performance or method of production. It will, for example, be illegal to declare an item handmade when it is in fact machine-made.
Containers of prepackaged products must not be manufactured, constructed, filled or displayed in such a way that a consumer could reasonably be misled as to quantity or quality of the product. In gauging the contents of a container, consumers should not have to put up with trying to detect whether there are hidden indentations, fillers or just unfilled space other than that which the peculiar qualities of the product require.
The fourth principle of the bill that I want to emphasize, Mr. Speaker, is this: the bill will tackle the question of the undue proliferation of package shapes and sizes which is the source of a great deal of consumer irritation. One of the most annoying things for consumers, and I frequently hear complaints about this, is the almost staggering variety of package shapes and sizes in some product lines. This matter was mentioned before the Parliamentary Committee and the Royal Commission. That makes prices comparison and product comparison almost impossible. I have reason to believe that certain manufac-
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act turers also consider that this marketing technique of package proliferation has, in some cases, reached ridiculous proportions and that they would welcome some rationalization of package shapes and sizes in some lines of consumer products. The bill provides that where the governor in council is of the opinion that there is undue proliferation in the sizes or shapes of the containers for prepackaged goods, the effect of which is to confuse or mislead the consumer, he may establish regulations to limit the sizes or shapes of such containers. The next provision is important, Mr. Speaker. For the purpose of establishing package requirements, the minister may seek the advice from time to time of the Standards Council of Canada, any organization in Canada engaged in Standards formulation, or any organization of consumers or dealers in the prepackaged product.
Some people, Mr. Speaker, have expressed the concern to me, and I notice that this matter has been referred to in the press, that the effect of this provision of the act will be that the government will interfere unduly with the free market process and will eliminate from the market package sizes which meet a real consumer requirement. I can assure the House that nothing could be further from the truth. I am fully aware that a variety of package sizes is necessary in order to meet the differing requirements of different kinds of households and products. I am also aware that there should be room for innovation in package shapes and sizes, just as there should be in other aspects of the marketing process. We wish to do nothing to prevent or hinder innovation.
I would remind the critics, Mr. Speaker, that a very large number of consumer food products are already packaged in standard sizes under a variety of acts and regulations which have been on the statute books for some time. These regulations have not worked an undue hardship on the manufacturers of those products which are required to meet certain standards under the regulations. For example, the more commonly used canned foods are sold in specified sizes, as is a product such as butter. The standards which have been introduced have not, it seems to me, worked any undue hardship on the free market system, on the producers, or on those who buy or sell butter. All that this section of the act intends to achieve, Mr. Speaker, is a similar degree of rationality in those areas where, quite frankly, the consumer is faced with an extremely confusing and even misleading array of package sizes for certain consumer products, which makes it almost impossible for him to reach any rational decision as to which may be the best buy having regard to his particular need.
In preparing these and all other regulations under the act, Mr. Speaker, it is our intention to consult not just with other government departments with interests in the field of packaging and labelling, but also with associations of consumers and manufacturers and other interested persons. May I point out that this is a very important principle to be considered in legislation of this kind. There is a specific provision in the bill which affords manufacturers, retailers and other people interested in the regulations a reasonable and statutory right to make representations with respect to the regulations. I think

December 16, 1970
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act that is an important provision. We want to make sure that such persons will have a reasonable opportunity to make representations under the regulations. We also want to make sure that the regulations are as practicable as knowledgeable people can make them.
In a bill, Mr. Speaker, designed primarily to help the Canadian consumer make knowledgeable and rational decisions in the market place, there is another feature which is of very great importance and significance. I should like to announce this afternoon the government's position on bilingual labelling. Bilingual labelling should, in my view and in the government's view, Mr. Speaker, as a general practice be mandatory for consumer products, both domestic and imported, which are subject to federal labelling legislation. At the present time the various federal acts which set out packaging and labelling rules are not consistent concerning the use of English or French. Several acts make no reference at all to language; some require that either English or French be used, while a few of the more recent labelling regulations specify that either English or French or both English and French shall be used. The new labelling regulations dealing with hazardous household chemicals, recently issued under the Hazardous Products Act, represent the first general bilingual labelling regulations or legislation at the federal level. There have been for many years requirements under the Food and Drugs Act relating to the use of both languages. These will be broadened and made general.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
Already, of course, a large proportion of food and drug products sold in Canada have bilingual labels. Manufacturers of many consumer products, especially of nationally advertised brands, have voluntarily applied bilingual labels to their products. This positive trend will facilitate the proposed program, making the task less formidable.
Over the next couple of years, drug products, foods, cosmetics, patent medicines, pesticides and all consumer products subject to federal labelling rules will progressively have to meet the bilingual labelling requirements. These new regulations will increase the number of products labelled in both languages, and we expect by the end of 1975 that bilingual labelling should, as a general practice, be mandatory at the point of manufacture for consumer products subject to federal labelling legislation.
There will be minor exceptions to the bilingual labelling requirements in certain circumstances where their mandatory application would obviously be impracticable or cause undue hardship. In general, however, most consumer products of both domestic and foreign origin will show the information on their labels in both English and in French by the end of 1975. It is recognized that imports may require special attention to ensure that foreign suppliers are aware of the bilingual requirements. Every effort will be made to encourage the earliest implementation of these new rules for imported products to the five-year target date. An interdepartmental committee will establish guidelines to ensure an orderly and efficient transition to this new policy.
I wish to emphasize that what is provided in this bill has been demanded by consumers and consumers spokesmen for many years. This bill is designed to help achieve the demands and requests made to the government for many years. I urge consumers and consumer organizations to express their support for it. In fact, since the bill was made public, I have already had encouraging words of support from consumer organizations and I have told them that they can manifest their support by appearing before the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs when, as I am confident will happen, this bill is referred to that Committee. I urge industry too, to get behind the bill, to give it their constructive support. I am confident that a careful reading of it will show that it is in the interests of that vast majority of honest and conscientious manufacturers who want to serve the consumers, just as it is in the interests of the consumers themselves. I am sure that this bill warrants the support of responsible businessmen. I urge them to continue this responsible support.
I trust that this bill will commend itself to all members of this House and that it will be referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs at an early date where it will receive careful attention.


Gerald William Baldwin: May I ask the minister a question? I will not be responding to this motion. My question is in connection with the very important announcement made by the minister in respect of the bilingual aspect of labelling prepackaged products. This must not be misunderstood. Does the announcement which the minister has made on behalf of the government indicate the policy by which prepackaged products from abroad or manufactured in Canada will be required by a certain date, under the regulations which the Governor in Council will in due course establish, to have bilingual labels? If not, those who import goods into Canada, sell or advertise them will be subject to an offence and a penalty. One of the penalties is set out in the bill.


Stanley Ronald Basford: Subject to the exemption which I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, that is the general thrust of the policy as announced.


Mr. W. M. Howe (Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Waterloo):: Mr. Speaker, when the minister spoke on November 3, he used the Bible and the Magna Carta to substantiate his position with regard to the bill. Thank God he has not used them today as well as all his other platitudes and comments.


Stanley Ronald Basford: They are good authorities for legislation.


William Marvin Howe: This bill is titled an act respecting the packaging, labelling, sale, importation and advertising of prepackaged and certain other products. This is an important bill. It affects the lives of all Canadians in that it relates to what they eat and what they buy on the market. It affects consumers, farmers and manufacturers. It enters into practically every type of business and organization in this country. This is one of the most

December 16, 1970

complex and vital bills that has been introduced in this House for a long time.
I sometimes wonder whether items that are supposed to do so much good for the ills of the consumer actually work out that way. The modern market place is complex, reflecting, above all, the complexity of the needs and wants of consumers. Our marketing system has not developed willy-nilly, but rather includes a number of built-in safeguards, among them the basic intelligence and good sense of consumers, the role of retailers in tailoring available supply to customer demands, and existing laws providing consumer guarantees, standards and protection.
The minister stated that we have a great deal of legislation which deals with the protection of consumers. I wish to refer briefly to the legislation dealing with hazardous products. Great emphasis has been placed on the labelling of hazardous products. We seem to have overlooked the fact that hazardous products are detrimental to children. Many cases involving hazardous products concern children who are unable to read. Children are most often the victims of hazardous products such as bleaches, detergents, pills and other drugs. This packaging bill should place greater emphasis on safe packaging of pills, drugs, bleaches and other hazardous products that are easily accessible to children. Often their health is destroyed and in many cases they die.
The minister indicated that approximately 7,000 articles are available in today's supermarket. Within a few years this number will reach 20,000. This is a complex bill. Why were those who are involved with producing and selling packages not called upon for assistance in preparing this legislation? It is true the minister said they will be invited to appear before the committee, but I feel if the intention is to produce good legislation the people engaged in the business should be consulted at an early stage. After all, these packages and labels are all there for a reason. We have all seen what has happened in connection with other bills. Legislation is prepared and, in many cases, it falls short of what is required. Those who have had a tremendous amount of experience in the commercial and industrial world should be asked for assistance in situations of this kind. I am sure there are lots of manufacturers' organizations and consumers' groups who would be willing to assist in making sure that good legislation is put before the House.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)
The minister has told us that packaging is to be standardized. I cannot help wondering how soon it will be before there is a standardization of prices, before every package on every shelf in a store will carry the same price tag for comparable articles. For myself, I hope this time will never come, because if it did it would destroy the initiative of manufacturers, the desire of people to put a product on the market and work in the marketplace as they should.
We on this side of the House are a little disturbed about the legislation before us because, once again, we see that provision has been made for the governor in
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act council to issue regulations. For example, he can exempt, conditionally or unconditionally, any pre-packaged product or class of pre-packaged products from any or all of the provisions of the act or regulations. This leaves the road open for a lot of possibilities.. Even a little politics could enter, here. Someone who is a friend of the minister might be exempted from the effect of this legislation and he could place his product on the market without complying with the regulations laid down for others.
Then again, the minister indicated it might take five years for this measure to become effective. Well, in five years from now most of the produce presently on the shelves of merchants and retailers in Canada will have been replaced. The minister tells us that some packages are short-filled. I believe that in labelling, emphasis should be placed on the date of the package; a product may have been on the shelf for two years, and, naturally, there is shrinkage in this space of time. A number of products can, of course, be kept on shelves for long periods without deteriorating. Consideration should be given to this aspect. It occurs to me that another difficulty is likely to arise in connection with a wide range of imported products now available. Their number has increased year by year as many new Canadians come to this country and demand some of the products they have used at home.
We ought to consider carefully the effect this legislation is likely to have on the cost of living. It is true the proliferation of packages will probably be reduced, but the cost of altering the present system may well be substantial. I know, for example, that the cost of the box in which one company packs its woolen blankets is 50 cents. Under the legislation before us, this packaging might have to be changed. One can imagine the cost to the manufacturer if he is required to do so-and we must not forget that the cost of the packaging is added to the cost of the product itself.
I feel, sometimes, that some of these proposals intended to be for the good of the consumer do not, in the end, turn out to be much benefit when they are accompanied by government regimentation. In this case the cost of meeting new packaging requirements might add 2 per cent, 3 per cent, 5 per cent or even 10 per cent to the price in some cases. The expense might be enormous in some cases.
When we first look at this legislation it might appear to contain a good suggestion; we have all had our problems in the supermarkets in deciding between one package and another. But we should bear in mind that packages are arranged in the way they are, probably because consumers demanded packages of that type. It is not always the manufacturer who is to blame for the existence of all these types and varieties. Think of all the different soaps and detergents we can use nowadays, for example, the soaps made for use in dishwashers as distinct from washing machines. There is a tremendous complexity in this field.
When the bill gets to committee we must take a careful look at it. I was glad to hear the minister say that before the regulations were changed at any time consumer

December 16, 1970
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act groups, manufacturers' groups and retailing interests would be allowed to consider them. I must say I do not see anything in the bill which says these groups will be consulted. I note that the regulations will be published in the Canada Gazette and a reasonable opportunity shall be afforded to consumers, dealers and other interested persons to make representations with respect thereto. But this appears to be putting the cart before the horse. If there are to be changes, they should be brought to the notice of the people most concerned before the regulations are drawn up. Then, when they are in the best possible form, they should be published. To my mind, this is the best way of proceeding, because once the regulations have been published in the Gazette it becomes more difficult to change them and this is bound to add to the complexity of the difficulties which the bill before us could create.
I sincerely hope the minister will afford an opportunity to all the groups he has signified to appear so that by the time the legislation is brought back to this House it will do for the consumers of Canada what the minister hopes it will do. I have my doubts in connection with the cost of this legislation and the length of time it will take before products already on the shelves have been bought or returned for repackaging or relabelling. As I said earlier, one of the main things we should be concerned with is the safety of containers in which hazardous products are offered for sale. This is as important as labelling, because children who sustain accidents through swallowing or coming into contact with injurious substances, cannot read.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)


Winona Grace MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to welcome this bill which I know will be well received by consumers across Canada. It has a great many good things in it. I want to discuss the bill under two headings: first, those things which are in the bill which I think are good and, second, one very important matter that is not dealt with in the bill and which I think it is essential that the minister take into consideration.
I was glad to hear the minister say that an opportunity will be provided people who are interested in the subject of labelling and packaging to make representations before any changes are made. I was even more glad to hear him suggest that consumers, manufacturers and other people interested would be welcome to appear before the committee when the bill is discussed in detail. I hope this means that witnesses will be called since the bill does make some new provisions. Most of the provisions were anticipated and were recommended by the report made by the special joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons of which the minister was cochairman and which reported in the spring of 1967.
There is no doubt that the provisions in the bill have been requested over and over again by representative consumer groups, committees and commissions, as the minister has indicated. Some of the very good provisions are, firstly those that require a declaration on the label as
to net quantity in terms of the weights and measures mentioned earlier. Secondly, there are provisions prohibiting false or misleading advertising and representation. I have drawn a lot of such cases to the attention of Box 99 and the minister, such as fruit drinks that are advertised in such a way as to make it appear they contain fruit juices, whereas in reality there is no fruit content in any way, shape or form but merely chemical compound. Thirdly, consumers have called for a long time for the number of servings to be indicated on the label. I do not mean by this a declaration that there are four, five or six servings, as the case may be; the quantity should be clearly stated in terms of appropriate weight or measure.
It is a good thing that the identity of the principal place of business of the manufacturer and other relevant information should be put on the label of a product. It is also a good thing that the product itself should be identified in terms of its generic or common composition or in terms of its function, namely what it does. It is a good thing that there is provision for information regarding the nature, quality and size of the product, and so on.
I also think that standardization of containers and the power to limit sizes or shapes of containers which are now in great profusion is a good thing. I have a distinct recollection of the prices committee visiting Fort William, or what was then Fort William and is now one half of the city of Thunder Bay, and being told by one consumer group that in one supermarket in town there were on the shelves 55 different kinds and sizes of packages of breakfast food.
I know that the hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Duff erin-Waterloo (Mr. Howe) who has just taken his seat, expressed concern lest the minister use dictatorial power to cut down on the number of sizes and shapes of packages and thus unduly interfere; but I suggest that the consumers of this country are both bewildered and confused as well as annoyed by this proliferation of different sizes and shaped packages of prepackaged breakfast food, which is quite unnecessary and a nuisance to cope with.
It is also a good thing to make provison in the bill for banning the use of deceptive terms, such as "cents off", "special sale", "large", "jumbo", "king size", "giant size", "jumbo quart" and a whole host of misleading terms of that sort. All of these provisions are good, and there are others I could mention which the minister enumerated in general terms.
What I say now is, so far, so good. As far as the bill goes the consumers can hope that the legislation will work well, that it will deal effectively with a number of great nuisances and misleading and confusing practices. But I do not think that the bill goes far enough to protect consumers in the supermarket or in the market place. This bill is very like one passed in the United States in 1966 known, I think, as the Fair Packaging and Labelling Act. Consumers in the United States who hoped for protection found the legislation pretty frustrating and completely inadequate. Evidence of this is coming increasingly to hand. I am rather suprised that the minister, who must

December 16, 1970

have been watching the situation there, has failed to see what I think is the central weakness in the United States legislation, the glaring omission that left consumers without the protection that they needed. What the United States bill left out was the real tool that shoppers must have if they are to determine the best value for their money. That tool is legislation that requires each package on the shelves to carry a label declaring the price per unit of the product inside the package. This provision is required in this bill and I hope there is sufficient representation before the committee for the minister to pause and to reconsider this legislation.
In case some hon. members are unfamiliar with the term "price per unit", may I briefly give this little summary taken from The Machinist, an American paper which puts the definition forward very succinctly. In the September 17 issue there appeared the following:
Unit pricing is the practice of stating the price per unit (pound, quart or pint) as well as the price per can or other package.
If you know the price per unit you can far more readily compare values and select the item offering the best value, regardless of its particular shape or size-which may be very deceptive.
You can see the difference in cost among different brands, different sizes and different versions of the same food.
The greatest differences revealed by unit pricing are often between the store's own brands and the national brands. But there are differences among the national brands too.
The hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Water-loo expressed fears that this legislation would cause the minister to become dictatorial on the issue of the size and shape of packages. I notice these fears were also expressed in an editorial that appears in the Journal on November 5. The editorial questioned clause 11 of the bill and had this to say:
-Section 11 of the bill. .. says the Minister may make regulations to avoid "an undue proliferation of sizes or shapes of containers". We see the intent: too many shapes and sizes make it hard for a customer to compare weights and prices. Yet-telling a manufacturer to label his goods honestly is one thing, but telling him he must use only such and such a package or container is moving into freedom of enterprise. It may not be a grave intrusion of free enterprise, but any such intrusion becomes a precedent and this one should be closely questioned by the opposition.
I imagine that in general this is the sort of fear expressed by the hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Duff-erin-Waterloo. What a unit pricing system would do is remove this fear. With unit pricing, it would not matter what was the size or shape of the package. If the price per unit were stated on the package then consumers in general could tell exactly the value of what they are getting. I notice this question as to why there has been no unit pricing included in United States legislation has been asked in a number of places in the United States by consumer organizations. It must be remembered that consumer organizations in Canada as a rule have not caught on to this because they have not had familiarity with the Fair Packaging and Labelling Act of the United States. Consequently, they are unable to realize the shortcomings from their own experience. This is why I fail to see why the minister cannot take advantage of United States
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act
experience in order to avoid Canadian consumers having to go through a period of trial and error, having to learn the hard way.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
Let me quote from the June issue of the 1969 edition of Consumer Reports:
Why shouldn't all packages be labelled with the price per pound or pint or other relevant unit? In considering such a requirement, the drafters of the Fair Packaging and Labelling Act decided it might be too costly for the small independent grocer. Since manufacturers could not usually print prices on their packages without violating the laws against price-fixing, the price labelling job would fall, as it does now, to the retailer. But regional offices of supermarket chains could readily include unit prices on the master price lists sent to all store managers, and suppliers could equip small groceries with easy-to-use price tables. The extra cost, if any, would probably prove negligible.
I might add that the savings to the consumer would prove considerable, not only in money but in time and worry expended by women while they are fussing and wondering about which package offers the best value. Actually when this legislation was before Congress it had a provision for standardizing packaging which was at least a little more protective than our legislation. It required packages in sizes of pounds and half pounds which would allow the consumers to understand how much they were getting for their money. The Congress committee of the House of Representatives threw out this provision as a result of pressure by large commercial interests in the United States.
This is not an excuse for our minister to leave unit pricing out of his packaging and labelling bill. I hope the minister will reconsider and put it in. I might point out that in Canada there are many consumers who are concerned about this. I should like to quote from a brief I received not long ago from the Federation des Magasins Co-op de Quebec. Let me read this little quotation:

Another aspect which has not been considered in that bill and which we are questioning at length deals with the application of the price per measure and unit. This measure enables consumers to choose any product by comparing the prices per unit of a specific measure and not only per packaging unit. It consists in generally indicating the price per ounce or per unit in the case of multiple packaging. It is thus easier to choose the most economic size.

I certainly hope when this matter comes before the committee representatives of the Federation des Magasins Co-op will have an opportunity of coming here and discussing this matter with the minister and members of the committee. It seems to me that omitting unit pricing from the packaging and labelling bill will mean that consumers today will not discover very easily which product is cheaper. In fact they will not be able to discover this without a computing device of some type. Moreover it is all too easy for manufacturers to disguise the effects of inflation by putting just a little less of the product in the package and leaving the price unchanged.
2132

Before this legislation goes through, I would like to see him convince himself that unit pricing is needed by consumers in this country to help them get the best value for their consumer dollar.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: Order, please. It is my duty at this time to remind hon. members that if the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Basford) speaks now he will close he debate.


Stanley Ronald Basford: I have just had a most engaging invitation from the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mrs. Maclnnis) to go tiptoeing through the supermarkets with her. I am not sure, with women's liberation, and one thing and another, who would supply the money, or whether it would be proper for me to supply the money.


Winona Grace MacInnis: It would be fifty-fifty; dutch treat.


Stanley Ronald Basford: I am not sure what my wife would think-of it all. It is not every day that I get invited for a date with such an attractive member as is the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway.
I will touch very briefly on a number of points that were made, first, by the hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Water loo (Mr. Howe). I appreciate what he had to say about hazardous products and their labelling and packaging. I know the hon. member has taken a great interest in the safe packaging of hazardous products, and I appreciated the comments he has made in the House over the years on this subject and the communications he has had with me. I think we have seen, in the last little while and we will see in the future, vast improvements in the area because we now have the Hazardous Products Act which deals with the sale, importation, packaging and advertising of products which are deemed hazardous or likely to be hazardous to the public. We are now taking steps by way of regulations and we will, as new designs and safer packages are developed, be able to regulate to ensure that products which are hazardous but still necessary are safely packaged so that the children of Canada are protected from them.
For example, just the other day we promulgated some regulations making it an offence to distribute a certain kind of very caustic cleanser from door to door by way of samples, because a particular firm distributing these samples had them slipped through the mail slot in the doors and children on the other side could pick them up and get seriously injured. We have now been able to pass regulations making that an offence. We have said that if people want to distribute this kind of product door to door they have to deliver the samples directly into the hands of the responsible householder. I appreciate the remarks of the hon. member for Wellington-Grey-Duffer-in-Waterloo on this subject, and I can assure him we are anxious to take whatever action is appropriate under the Hazardous Products Act to deal with the subject.
He also spoke about consultation. I should like to assure him that both I and my officials throughout the
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act
course of the preparation of this bill have consulted with various groups, the ones he mentioned as well as consumer groups and organizations such as the Grocery Products Manufacturers Association. Let me say that these consultations are not for the purpose of getting their agreement to the legislation but rather so that I, and officials of the department as well as people in the business, may have an understanding of each others position and attempt to write reasonable legislation which deals effectively with the problems. There has been such consultation in the past, and I am sure it will continue in the future. They of course are free to appear before the committee, and I know they will, to make whatever points they wish. To the extent that they can convince me and members of the committee that changes should be made, of course, the legislation will be improved.
I want to say one thing about people appearing before the committee. Of course it is a little presumptuous of me to say that because it is up to the committee to decide whether or not it wishes to hear people. However, I would urge the committee to do so because I know that there are people, other than government witnesses, who want to be heard. I know that the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway, who will be a member of the committee, will urge that, and I hope the committee will decide to hear witnesses so that all points of view on this important piece of consumer protection legislation can be brought to the fore in the hearings of that committee.
May I say to the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway that I appreciate her complimentary remarks about the legislation, that it was dealing with a great many problems about which consumers have been complaining.
I do not want at this point to get into an exhaustive discussion of the whole question of unit pricing, but let me say two things: from our point of view and the point of view of this legislation, there is a good deal more wrong with the U.S. truth-in-packaging legislation than simply the fact that it has left out unit pricing. The whole question of the proliferation, which is dealt with in Bill C-180, is far more effectively dealt with in Bill C-180 than it is in the U.S. bill. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I should not be commenting on the legislation of another country. But may I say, with respect to the hon. member, that it is an over simplification to suggest that all that is wrong with the United States legislation is that there is nothing in it with respect to unit pricing, and to suggest we have just copied the United States so our legislation has a big hole in it. The question is more complicated than that.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
May I also say that we are not ignorant of this whole question of unit pricing. We have been following discussions on it extremely carefully. Officials of the department have gone to the city of New York, and I have visited with the Consumers Department in New York which is pioneering regulations in unit pricing. Officials of my office have made purchases in stores in Washington, D.C. which were being used experimentally to see how unit pricing worked. We have not written this into

December 16, 1970
Legislation
the legislation tor reasons which we will have to discuss in the committee.
May I also say that the object of the consumer movement, as it is the object of the department, is to make it possible for consumers to make rational choices, informed choices, and to enhance the comparability of competing products. I think we can help accomplish this with Bill C-180, and I am sure we will discuss exhaustively in committee the reasons unit pricing is not contained within the provisions of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second tune and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.


[Stage Direction]
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-179, respecting the Buffalo and Fort Erie Public Bridge Company, as reported (without amendment) from the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs.
Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (for the Minister of Finance) moved: that Bill C-179, respecting the Buffalo and Fort Erie Public Bridge Company, as reported (without amendment) from the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Allan Joseph MacEachen: that the bill be read the third time and do pass.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



ANTI-DUMPING ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTING TRIBUNAL, INQUIRIES, REPORTS, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill S-6, to amend the Anti-Dumping Act, as reported (with an amendment) from the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs.
Allan Joseph MacEachen: that Bill S-6, to amend the Anti-Dumping Act, as reported (with an amendment) from the Standing Committee on Finance, Trade and Economic Affairs, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Allan Joseph MacEachen: that the bill be read the third time and do pass.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.
[Mr. Basford.)



LEPROSY ACT


Stanley Ronald Basford: that Bill S-7, to repeal the Leprosy Act, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Speaker, perhaps one of the ministers could take this opportunity to give a brief explanation of the bill.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to repeal the Leprosy Act which has really fallen into dissuetude, and is no longer required on the statute books of Canada.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, we are happy to agree to the second reading of this bill at this time. We have done quite a good portion of work this Wednesday afternoon. Maybe we could get some other pieces of legislation through also.


Mr. Bechard:: Old age pensions?


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is right. Maybe we could pass my amendment to retain the escalation clause with respect to the basic old age pension. However, I rose simply to say it is interesting to note that we have made sufficient progress in the field of health in Canada, so far as leprosy is concerned, that we do not need this legislation any more. It cannot be said that leprosy has been eradicated so far as the world scene is concerned, and I hope we will continue to make our contribution to the World Health Organization, and in other ways, towards needed improvement in health standards around the world. Meantime, it is good to note this forward step, and we are happy to agree to second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs.

Stanley Howard Knowles: What about taking up item No. 27?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I have consulted with the representative of the Official Opposition and at the moment it is not certain whether there might not be a wish to have discussion on this order, No. 27, which is to refer the trade agreement between Canada and New Zealand to the External Affairs Committee. So, in accordance with that expression of opinion I thought I would not call that item today.
There are no other items that I would like to call today because of the arrangements that have been made up to the moment, but I wish to say that tomorrow probably we will continue with the Old Age Security Act, and that any regulations that might impede the submitting of
December 16, 1970

amendments, or indeed the carrying of the bill to the third reading stage, might be waived so that, if we wish, we can complete the bill tomorrow.
As hon. members realize, there is a wish to dispose of the omnibus bill affecting various loans acts, and I would call this later in the week. Probably tomorrow we will begin with the Old Age Security Act, unless further consultation might lead to the conclusion that a very small amount of time would be spent in clearing that omnibus bill. In that event, I would call it first and then proceed with the Old Age Security Act, but that would not be done without further consultation.
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I just thank the minister for not asking the House to proceed with the omnibus loans bill. One or two of our members who are interested in it are tied up in committee. After all, we have done pretty well today in dealing
Business of the House
with six items of business. Perhaps with a good night's rest we might do a good day's work tomorrow.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I should like to call it six o'clock.


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Speaker, how can we have a good night's rest when we know it is the night for the annual Liberal party?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: Does the House agree to call it six o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):: Order. It being six o'clock, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at two o'clock p.m.
At 5.53 p.m. the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to Standing Order.

Thursday, December 17, 1970