1969-11-21

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS


[Stage Direction]
Hon, Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Transport): Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence may I be permitted to call the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of a very distinguished visitor, the Hon. Clement Maynard, Minister of Tourism and Telecommunications for the government of the Bahamas.
Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.



TARIFF BOARD


Hon. Herb Gray (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table today copies in English and in French of the report by the Tariff Board on Reference No. 141, together with a transcript of the evidence presented to the Board at its public hearings. The report covers fractions of petroleum for use as feedstocks in the manufacture of organic chemicals.
I would like to assure the House that the Tariff Board's recommendations will be carefully considered by the government. Therefore interested parties who wish to comment on this report should bring their comments to the attention of the Department of Finance as soon as possible.



PUBLIC ACCOUNTS


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of fhe Privy Council):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have unanimous consent to introduce the following motion:
That the Public Accounts Volumes I, II, and III, and the abridged version for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1968, laid before the House on January 14, 1969, and the report of the Auditor General thereon, laid before the House on March 26, 1969, be referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.


Mr. Winch:: At long last.


Mr. Speaker:: Is there unanimous agreement?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: That the Public Accounts Volumes I, II, and III, and the abridged version for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1968, laid before the House on January 14, 1969, and the report of the Auditor General thereon, laid before the House on March 26, 1969, be referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have unanimous consent for the following motion:
That the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs be empowered to study the subject matter of electronic eavesdropping;
That the evidence adduced by the committee in its study of the aforementioned matter during the first session of the twenty-eighth Parliament be referred to the committee;
And that the order of second reading of Bill C-116 be discharged, and the subject matter thereof be referred to the committee.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member leave to propose this motion to the House?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: That the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs be empowered to study the subject matter of electronic eavesdropping;
That the evidence adduced by the committee in its study of the aforementioned matter during the first session of the twenty-eighth Parliament be referred to the committee;
And that the order of second reading of Bill C-116 be discharged, and the subject matter thereof be referred to the committee.
November 21, 1969

Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to lay on the table an extract from the minutes of a meeting of the Commissioners of Internal Economy concerning allowances of members of the House.



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. In the light of the statement by the minister regarding the proposed new airport for Toronto, is it the position of the government that the Ontario and municipal governments involved should not be consulted as to their views or have any say concerning the location of the site of the airport?


Hon. Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Transport);: No, it is not the intention of the government that they not be consulted. We have already discussed that with the provincial government and at the request of the provincial government of Ontario we have refrained from direct involvement with the municipalities.


Mr. Andrew Brewin (Greenwood):: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister give assurances that this major airport project will not be proceeded with before representatives of the municipal governments and other affected people who live in the area are heard by him, by the government and by the Transport Committee of this House?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: I cannot assure the hon. member that the committee will study the matter, but certainly I can give him an assurance in terms of representations to the government.
[Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale).l


Mr. Lincoln M. Alexander (Hamilion West):: I should like to direct a supplementary question to the minister. In view of the minister's statement on Tuesday with regard to the location of the Toronto airport that if the Ontario and municipal governments want a say in its location they should be prepared to participate in its management and help to cover any operating deficits that are incurred, is it the minister's intention now to advise all municipalities that want to participate in such projects that they will have to take part in the management and share in the operating costs if they want to have a say in the location of such airport installations?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: No, Mr. Speaker, that is not my intention. What I said was that if there was to be local involvement, with which I agree, there should be responsibility along with that and they would have to help in the management. However, in so far as the involvement of municipalities is concerned, I have to advise the House that it is largely up to the provincial governments to decide on the extent to which the municipalities will be involved.


Mr. J. M. Forresiall (Darlmoulh-Halifax Easl):: Can the minister assure the House that we will not have a scenario like the James Bond series in connection with the Ste. Scho-lastique airport?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


Harold Edward Winch: May I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In order that it shall not be a fait accompli will the minister appear before and advise the Standing Committee on External Affairs and National Defence as to the consideration being given by his department regarding the replacement or otherwise of the Tracker and Argus aircraft?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have the impression that this question should be considered by the committee rather than determined by way of question and answer at this time.


Harold Edward Winch: In other words it will be a fait accompli so far as the committee is concerned.


An hon. Member:: He is bilingual.
November 21, 1969	COMMONS DEBATES



VIOLENT DISTURBANCES


Mr. Warren Allmand (Nolre-Dame-de-Grace):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Solicitor General who is Acting Prime Minister today. Considering the fact that last night in Montreal one of the largest bombs yet was set off at Loyola College while 500 students were at that institution, would the Acting Prime Minister today get in touch with the premier of the province of Quebec and the mayor of Montreal to see how the RCMP can co-operate in a more complete way to crack down on the group that is carrying out these bombings and also to prevent further bombings?


Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the prime responsibility under the law lies with the provincial authority. But having said that I want to emphasize very strongly that there is very close working co-operation between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Quebec provincial police and the city of Montreal police in these matters, and in this particular instance there is, of course, that kind of co-operation.
I can assure the hon. member and other hon. members who must all be very concerned that there is the utmost co-operation as well in perfecting and improving ways of bringing about a satisfactory solution to these problems and the prevention of similar occurrences in the future is being pressed to the utmost.


William Warren Allmand: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that within the last few weeks Michel Chartrand announced in court, I believe, that if bill 63 was passed by the Quebec legislature there would be a new round of bombings directed at the English-speaking schools in Quebec, would the Acting Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice, who is supposed to be in the House today-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


An hon. Member:: Disgraceful.
Another hon. Member: Shocking.


William Warren Allmand: -get in touch with the Attorney General of Quebec to see that Michel Chartrand's bail is terminated? Also, would they please get in touch with the mayor of Montreal-he did not answer my first question, Mr. Speaker.
1085
Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, the co-operation in matters of this kind is working extremely well-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


George James McIlraith: -and is effected directly at the working level by the police authorities. If anything comes to my attention, or that I can ascertain from the police authorities, which requires communication by me with the Minister of Justice or Attorney General of Quebec, or the other provincial and civic authorities, that will be done. At the moment I am aware of nothing in connection with this particular bombing that would warrant that kind of communication, but I can assure the hon. member that if anything does occur to warrant it in the course of the investigation there will be such communication.


William Warren Allmand: As a further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Sock it to him.


William Warren Allmand: Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious matter and I wish the opposition would take it seriously too. It is not just the Loyola College bombing that is involved. Threats have been made against all English schools in Quebec.



SUGGESTED DISCUSSION WITH MR. SAULNIER

Mr. J. P. Nowlan (Annapolis Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Acting Prime Minister if next week, when Mr. Saulnier comes to Ottawa to testify before the Broadcasting Committee which is investigating the Company of Young Canadians, he will adopt the suggestion of the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grace and discuss the matter with Mr. Saulnier at that time? Further, will he pay heed to the evidence that Mr. Saulnier will be giving about such activities in Montreal so that this problem will not develop in the serious way in which it appears to be heading at the moment?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I will be very willing to consider the hon. member's suggestion and the suggestions of other hon. members, but I must say I do not know what evidence Mr. Saulnier will be giving before the committee. I therefore cannot at this stage tell what action I will take as a result of the evidence given by him.
1086	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry



MONTREAL-PROTECTION FOR GREY CUP PARADE

Mr. John L. Skoberg (Moose Jaw):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct an additional question to the Acting Prime Minister. Can he say whether the federal authorities are giving extra protection, in co-operation with the Montreal law enforcement department, to the Grey Cup parade next week?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, there is always difficulty in answering questions in the House as to investigations-


Gerald William Baldwin: We have noticed that.


George James McIlraith: It is a good thing if the hon. member has noticed. It will serve him well if he has. As I was saying, it is always difficult at any given moment to give details of investigations being carried out by police authorities and to detail what protective steps are , being taken in that part of the administration of justice. I therefore regret I am not able to answer the hon. member's question as fully as I would wish to answer it, but I do want to assure him that the working co-operation between the three police forces, in connection with the problems that may be anticipated on that type of occasion, is very close indeed.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.



PENSIONS


Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Treasury Board but in his absence I will direct it to the minister representing him during the Liberal thinkers' conference. What progress is being made with respect to a possible increase in the pensions of superannuated civil servants, and does the minister expect a decision on this issue before Christmas or the end of this year?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It seems to me that the hon. member is asking a question which was debated at the time of adjournment just a few days ago. Perhaps the hon. member might wait until next week and ask it then when the minister in charge is in the House.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


Mr. Thomas S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis-
[Mr. Mcllraith.l
DEBATES	November 21, 1969
ter of Indian Affairs and Northern Development arising from the newly enacted Indian band council borrowing regulations authorizing band councils to borrow money for housing and other purposes. Has the government established a fund from which band councils may borrow at a reasonable rate of interest? If not, from what source does the minister expect band councils to borrow?


Mr. Speaker:: I would think this question should be on the Order Paper.



FINANCING OF SALE OF LOCOMOTIVES TO YUGOSLAVIA

Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary Cenire):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. Is he in a position to answer the question I asked on November 13 which the acting minister said he would refer to the minister for answer? My question was: Will the minister look into the reasons why the Export Development Corporation has failed to provide financing for a very considerable sale of diesel locomotives to Yugoslavia? In view of the fact that considerable unemployment will be caused unless this sale goes through, would the minister make sure that the matter is reconsidered by the corporation?


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce):: The Export Development Corporation has not failed. The situation is that this contract with Yugoslavia was to include American materials. We tried, and rightly I think, to get the Export-Import Bank in the United States to do the financing for that portion of it. We had some difficulty but they have now consented to do part of it, part of their part if I may say, and The Export Development Corporation will do the rest so there is no reason why the deal should not be completed.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary. Could the minister tell us if this transaction is now completed and will go ahead immediately or is there going to be considerable further delay?


Jean-Luc Pepin: I do not think there should be any further delay, Mr. Speaker, but I am not informed on the very latest developments. I knew of the solution that was developing and I have so indicated.
November 21, 1969



TRANSPORT


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, it seems to be the Minister of Transport's day. I should like to direct a question to him arising out of the virtually general objection on the part of cities, towns, people in general and the employees of the railway companies against the applications that have been made by the Canadian Pacific Railway and Canadian National Railways to the Canadian Transport Commission to permit those companies to almost wipe out passenger transportation across Canada. With a view to assuring that every objection will be taken to these applications, and in the national interest, will the minister consider having counsel appointed by the federal government to place before the Canadian Transport Commission the general objection to action which is regarded as a cavalier disregard of the responsibilities of these railway companies?


Mr. Speaker:: I have the distinct impression that this very question was asked last week. If I am wrong the minister should reply.


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it was asked last week but perhaps the right hon. gentleman was not present so maybe you will permit me to answer again. Whether we will do this in precisely the way the right hon. gentleman has suggested I am not certain, but I can assure the House that every effort will be made to ensure that all representations are put to the commissioners in this regard. I should like to remind the House and the right hon. gentleman that there is an appeal from any judgment to the Governor in Council, and under these circumstances it would seem to me that the public interest in this matter is quite well protected. However, if there is some other course that needs to be taken I shall be more than happy to consider it.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, and may I direct it either to the Minister of Transport or the Acting Prime Minister. May I now have an answer to the question I asked the last time the Solicitor General was Acting Prime Minister, whether an effort will be made to have these hearings in public?
21362-69j
Inquiries of the Ministry


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that where there is a contentious matter of any kind it is not within my purview to instruct the CTC to do so, but I have already made representations to them to ensure that where the public interest is demonstrably present there should be public hearings.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Malpeque):: A supplementary question for the Minister of Transport, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister assure the House that it is not his ambition to extend the present rail passenger policy in Newfoundland to the whole country?



SCIENCE SERVICES


Mr. Bruce Howard (Okanagan Boundary):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. Has the announcement that Queen's University has indicated its intention of joining the western universities' telescope consortium in any way altered the government's intention to transfer the assets of the Queen Elizabeth Observatory to the consortium? If not, when can we expect the transaction to be completed?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I am not sure that this is a matter of urgency. I would think this question might be debated during the adjournment proceedings.



NATIONAL REVENUE


Mr. Roch La Salle (Jolieile):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Revenue.
Since the Minister of National Health and Welfare stated that it would now be possible to ban tobacco advertising on radio, does the Minister of National Revenue agree with this policy, taking into account the importance of this source of revenue for his department?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The way it was asked, I do not think the question should be allowed.

November 21, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry



POLLUTION


Mr. James A. McGrath (Si, John's East):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is he in a position' to tell the House what initiatives Canada is prepared to take as a result of the Brussels conference on oil pollution of the high seas?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, the conference is still proceeding. As I indicated to the hon. member a few days ago, the various countries involved are continuing to make their statements and the negotiations are continuing as well. I consider it wiser to wait until the conclusion of the conference, which I believe will be one week from today, in order to find out exactly what agreement, if any, is reached at that time. As I have indicated in previous answers, if it should turn out that no definitive agreement is reached at that conference we are prepared to consider action in regard to territorial waters along the lines proposed.


James Aloysius McGrath: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question. It is very simple and direct. Will the minister make a statement to the House at the conclusion of this conference and set out Canada's policy?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker; as soon as possible after that date.


Mr. John Lundrigan (Gander-Twillingaie):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a further supplementary question. The implications of my question are important. Would the Minister of Transport consent to invite Members of Parliament to his next press briefing so that we may obtain as much information about his negotiations as members of the press obtain?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and if the hon. gentleman would like to have lunch with me some day I will give him the whole story any time he wants it.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John Howard Lundrigan: Mr. Speaker, may I say on a question of privilege that I can well afford to pay for my own lunch. Ignoring that point for a moment, may I say that questions were raised in the House earlier this week about the minister's trip. At that time he refused to make any statement to the House, discuss the subject or make a statement on motions. We

found out, however, that on that very afternoon at a press meeting the minister disclosed the nature of his trip. Information was given to the press before members of the House were advised-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



VIOLENT DISTURBANCES


Mr. Robert McCleave (Halifax-East Hants):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence. Would the hon. gentleman arrange to have bomb disposal experts of the Canadian Armed Forces available for instant dispatch to the city of Montreal should the situation warrant such action?



INDUSTRY


Mr. John Burton (Regina East):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. Have the minister or his officials now had an opportunity to meet with the potash producers? Could he also indicate what progress has been made in resolving outstanding problems?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, the regulations will be issued today in Regina, I understand. I am informed that they are concerned mostly with matters of conservation and proration. An advance copy was apparently made available to the Department of Justice. It was studied yesterday and the study is continuing today. It has to do with the legality, the constitutionality, of the regulations. It is too early yet for me to comment on that.
With respect to the economics of the regulations, I can only observe that the governor of New Mexico said yesterday: "I think it saved the industry in Carlsbad." That worries me a little.


John Stratford Burton: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I take it from the minister's answer that he has not yet determined if the price guarantee arrangements which have been reached informally or semi-formally in fact apply to producers outside of Canada and whether in fact the interests of Canadian producers are adequately protected?
November 21, 1969


Jean-Luc Pepin: There are apparently no price features in the proposed regulations. They are concerned only with conservation and proration. What effect the conservation and proration measures will have on pricing is still to be ascertained.



IMMIGRATION


Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: I have a question that concerns the Minister of Manpower and Immigration, the Solicitor General and the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, so I will have the opportunity of directing it to the Acting Prime Minister. Will the government take active steps to prevent or at least carefully examine the entrance into Canada of members of the Black Panther Society who are attempting to enter Canada today? I ask this question, Mr. Speaker, because of the reported strong objections of the government of Saskatchewan to the federal government in this regard. Members of this society who have long criminal records are coming into Canada for the purpose of stirring up sedition among the Indian people.


George James McIlraith: As I understand the law in this country, it is not the practice to admit persons with long criminal records, but the matter is determined on an individual basis. In any event, I will look into the whole matter raised by the hon. member as it does involve several departments.


John Stratford Burton: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. When the Solicitor General is making his inquiries, will he determine if in fact any specific complaints were made against the individuals who were in Saskatchewan and Alberta and about whom the Attorney General of Sackatchewan was complaining?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will be very glad to do that. The question, of course, is whether the complaints were made before they were admitted.



MINAS BASIN-COMPLETION OF STUDY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. M. Forrestall (Dartmouth-Halifax
East): I have a question for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. Can the minister now indicate when the House and the Canadian people can expect the feasibility study on Minus Basin tidal power?
Inquiries of the Ministry Hon. J. J. Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources): Mr. Speaker, the last information I received was that the study would not be available until the end of the year.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Louis-Roland Comeau (South Western
Nova): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. A couple of weeks ago I asked the minister a question regarding federal safety regulations and the moving of the Bruce nuclear generating plant in Ontario. He assured me he would investigate this matter. He stated he had not been aware of the matter. I wonder if he has information on it now?
Hon. J. J. Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I believe the question asked was whether there was any arrangement regarding the effect on the labour force by reason of moving the plant. In so far as the regulations are concerned, the Atomic Energy Control Board has very up-to-date and effective regulations for the protection of the public in these areas. The moving of the plant was as a result of the application of these longstanding regulations. I believe everything is being done according to the requirements of the Atomic Energy Control Board and the safety situation is satisfactory.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Heath Macquarrie (Hillsborough):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Acting Prime Minister who seems to be filling the post with deliberateness and with dignity. If he does not have the information today, I am free for lunch on Monday. In light of the closing of diplomatic missions abroad and the deployment of personnel in the Department of External Affairs, apparently for reasons of economy, can the Acting Prime Minister advise if a freeze has been put on the recruiting of foreign service officers for the current or upcoming fiscal year?


Mr. Speaker:: I think the question should be discussed at lunchtime.
1090	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry GRAIN


Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskaloon-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio in charge of the Wheat Board. I refer the minister to his statement in the House yesterday:
_no one can, of course, stop the Saskatchewan
Power Corporation or any other similar body or company in Canada from buying Canadian wheat and doing whatever they like with it.
Could the minister clarify this statement in view of the role of the Canadian Wheat Board as the sole agency responsible for marketing Canadian wheat?


Hon. Otto E. Lang (Minister without Portfolio):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am glad to do so. I was referring to the opportunity they would have of buying wheat from agents of the Canadian Wheat Board, in foreign countries, such as Japan, Germany or wherever the contractor who might be interested in the transaction is located.


Alfred Pullen Gleave: May I say, Mr. Speaker, that the answer intrigues me. I wish to ask a supplementary question. In view of the fact that according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics exports in August of this year were at the lowest level in 20 years, can the minister inform the House if specific negotiations are now under way with the U.S.S.R. on further sales of wheat to that country?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated previously, it is not my intention to comment upon negotiations in regard to the sale of grains which the Canadian Wheat Board may have under way until such negotiations are completed.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


John Angus MacLean: My question is directed to the Minister of National Defence. Is the minister yet in a position to assure the House and the country that any cuts which may be made in the strength of the reserve military forces will not be nearly as severe as those first considered?


Hon. Leo Cadieux (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I expect to have a report early in December from the study group that has been concerned with this matter. I believe I am right in saying that the cuts will not be as severe as predicted.

DEBATES	November 21, 1969


John Angus MacLean: Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker.



EFFECT OF SHIPPING CONDITIONS AT VANCOUVER ON GRAIN MOVEMENT

Mr. Gordon Ritchie (Dauphin):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio in charge of the Wheat Board. Has uncertainty of shipping conditions in the port of Vancouver affected the movement of grain into export channels? If so, what steps are being taken to rectify this?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to be concrete about the effect of strikes or threats of strikes upon sales of grain. It is quite possible, of course, that the expectation of difficulties could cause some people to hesitate about booking orders. However, the actions of the Minister of Labour in the past in seeing that wheat in fact continued to flow through Vancouver go a long way, I think, to allay those fears at the present time.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


Mr. Mark Rose (Fraser Valley West):: In the
absence of the Minister of Justice I direct my question to the Solicitor General. Is the minister aware of allegations being made that international gambling money is being used to finance real estate and recreation developments in the North Vancouver area? If not, will his office look into the matter?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think this question is the type that might be discussed at the time of adjournment if there is urgency. Otherwise it should be placed on the order paper.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: My
question is to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Is the minister aware of the International Congress on Arctic Development and the Future of Eskimo Societies taking place in France next week?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I agree-
November 21, 1969


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. A question asked in those terms cannot be accepted. The hon. member is asking whether the minister is aware of a situation. This is perhaps the same form used by the previous questioner. Questions asked in those terms are not acceptable at this time.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Perhaps I could rephrase the question. Has the minister taken any steps to send official Eskimo representatives to this conference taking place in France next week?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a delegation will proceed next week to Le Havre and Rouen, and one of the delegates is Mr. Michael Salomoni, an Eskimo, an elected representative of Eastern Arctic.



PESTICIDES


Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources related to the recent announcement of a major ban on the use of DDT and the developing concern about the disposal of stocks on hand. Are any arrangements being made by the government for collection of excess stocks of DDT so that they will not be dumped into rivers or thrown out in the garbage?


John James Greene: Mr. Speaker, since the question of the disposal of such stocks affects several government departments that have made a practice in the past of using this chemical, there will be an investigation and review at the interdepartmental level to determine a proper course of action for all departments regarding disposal of these stocks.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister be kind enough to make a report on this matter as soon as a decision has been reached?


John James Greene: I will be glad to consider that suggestion, Mr. Speaker.



TRANSPORT


John Angus MacLean: I rise only to ask the Minister of Transport whether he
Inquiries of the Ministry is in a position to answer the question his Parliamentary Secretary took as notice yesterday.


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The question had to do with provision of a standby service in regard to crossings to Prince Edward Island during the winter months. I should like to look into this matter in greater detail. I understand provisions have been made in this connection but I cannot answer fully at this time. I shall try to get a written answer to my hon. friend in a few days.



FORESTRY


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries and Forestry and since I do not see his Parliamentary Secretary in the chamber, may I direct my question to the Acting Prime Minister to take as notice, or perhaps the acting minister could deal with the matter. It concerns the continuation of the voluntary export ban on logs on the Pacific coast, imposed last spring, which was to have ended on September 1. It is extremely important to the forest industry to know whether or not the ban is being extended. Has the acting minister any information with regard to this question?


Hon. Jean-Pierre Cote (Acting Minister of Fisheries and Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any information but I will bring the matter to the attention of the minister.



AIRPORTS


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. In view of the fact that one of the many greatly needed airstrips for isolated areas in northern Manitoba has now been licensed at Norway House, is consideration being given by the federal government to making a financial contribution to assist in the cost of other airstrips being built by the provincial northern affairs department?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This question should be placed on the order paper.

November 21, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry SHIPBUILDING



ASSISTANCE IN FILLING EXPORT ORDERS

Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Sainl John-Lancasler):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. I am sorry he is so busy in the "hot seat" today instead of lying around at Harrison Hot Springs with his colleagues. In view of the recent indication by the minister of co-operation with our shipbuilders, particularly if they are able to obtain new export markets, can the minister say what he means in terms of aid to the industry since this information is needed by the industry when it is seeking new business?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I think this question might more appropriately be answered by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. I might say all departments, my own included, are co-operating, though I think this co-operation varies depending on the kind of request that comes to us from a shipbuilder when he does get an export order or there is the potential for an export order. However, I would be glad to refer this matter to my colleague for a more specific answer.


Thomas Miller Bell: May I take this very fine gesture by the Minister of Transport and direct my question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce since he has prime responsibility for shipbuilding. Would the minister take the opportunity now to reply to the question?


Jean-Luc Pepin: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I lost the question. I was answering mentally the question on logs addressed to the Minister of National Revenue! Would the hon. member kindly repeat his question?


Thomas Miller Bell: I was asking about inquiries of his department by shipbuilders. Can the minister give an indication to the shipbuilding industry of what is meant by aid and co-operation in seeking new export business?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I hope the minister will reply to this question briefly because I have the impression that the question as asked is very general in nature and normally would be replied to by way of a statement on motions. The minister may give a short reply.


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, the implication of the question is that no help is given to the industry now and this, of course, is a wrong impression to give. The shipbuilding industry

of Canada is subsidized at a very high level representing some tens of millions of dollars a year. The inquiry now being conducted is to find ways and means by which the subsidization program can be improved. I am working for shipyards on an almost daily basis. For example-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have to interrupt the minister. If he wishes to go into the matter further he will have to do so by way of a statement on motions.



PUBLIC SERVICE


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Supply and Services. On October 29, in response to a question of mine, he said it was the objective of the central pay office to be current by the end of November in the matter of retroactive pay cheques. Can the minister say whether that objective is being achieved?


Hon. James Richardson (Minister of Supply and Services):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are making progress toward achieving that objective.



TRANSPORT


Mr. Walter C. Carter (St. John's West):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. In view of the lack of proper transportation facilities on the south coast of Newfoundland, mainly as a result of indifference on the part of Canadian National Railways, would the minister undertake to get an early decision from the Canadian Transport Commission on an application submitted to that board by Pacific Hovercraft Limited to operate services in that area?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Long before the hon. member was even aware that this was happening, Mr. Speaker, I had made such representations to the CTC.



DEVELOPMENT OF TRANS-SHIPMENT FACILITIES AT GANDER AIRPORT

John Howard Lundrigan: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for my good friend and benevolent colleague, the Minister of Transport. In view of the
November 21, 1969

report that a consortium of French entrepreneurs is planning to spend $400 million in developing air trans-shipment facilities on St. Pierre and Miquelon, is the minister planning to support the concept of trans-shipment at Gander International Airport, which proposal has been investigated for several years now?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to the very aggressive committee at work at Gander that as soon as they can provide, with our assistance, some tangible evidence that the airlines would be interested in this concept, we would be happy to go ahead as fast as we can. It is a question of finding out whether there is a firm interest on the part of the airlines. We are assisting the committee in this regard as well as undertaking some research on our own.



POLLUTION


Mr. Randolph Harding (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. In view of the statement by the Ontario energy and resources management minister yesterday that legislation regarding the banning of phosphates in detergents is being considered by the Ontario government for this coming January, would the minister indicate whether the government of Canada is also giving consideration to introducing at an early stage legislation to ban the use of phosphates in all detergents used in Canada?


John James Greene: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday while speaking on second reading of the Canada Water Act, we are giving consideration to such action. I have asked for the views of the committee that will be studying the Canada Water Act. Whether this matter would be more effectively handled at the federal or at the provincial level is one of the questions very much in my mind at this time.



REQUEST FOR PAYMENT ON FARM-STORED CROPS

John Leroy Skoberg: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister without Portfolio in charge of grain. In view of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics report
Yukon and N.W.T. Government that wheat stocks have risen 17 per cent, which represents a direct increase in farm-stored grain, would the minister say whether he will now recommend a payment on farm-stored grain to relieve the storage problem of the producers?


Otto Emil Lang: Mr. Speaker, any changes in policy with regard to existing situations will, of course, be announced by the government in due course.
[DOT] (11:50 a.m.)



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


Gerald William Baldwin: This House condemns the constitutional and administrative policies of the government as enunciated by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development with respect to the Yukon and the Northwest Territories and rejects the pathological refusal of the government to end the colonial form of government which exists in the said Territories and this House adopts the desires and aspirations of the people of the Yukon and Northwest Territories as expressed unanimously by the resolutions of the Yukon Territorial Council and the Northwest Territorial Council requesting evolutionary constitutional and administrative reform.


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to see the minister has foregone the pleasure of going to Harrison Hot Springs, where most of his colleagues are today, in order to participate in this debate, as well as the hon. member for Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange), whose participation is going to be rather painful, I am sure. I am just as sure he will be with us during the debate.


Mr. Orange:: It won't be painful for me.


Erik Nielsen: But it will be painful for me.
I should like to recall some of the events that have occurred before becoming critical of the policy of the government as enunciated by the minister in Yellowknife on the tenth of this month and in Whitehorse on the twelfth of this month.
It was in 1958, on September 26, that a former Prime Minister of Canada, the right hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefen-baker) said:
This area, Yukon, will be a province surely in the fullness of time.
COMMONS DEBATES	November 21, 1969
Yukon and N.W.T. Government
He said also:
It is my hope that by the time of Canada's centennial in 1967 the Yukon and Mackenzie will have gone a long way-if not all the way-toward selfgovernment.
That was over a decade ago. In keeping with that expressed philosophy, the then government in 1958 did something positive about achieving that objective. I hear from some quarters that nothing was done. Let us examine the record for a moment.
The number of members on the council of the Yukon was increased from five to seven, and a blueprint was devised at that time which would lead to adding an additional member to the council with each progressive increase in the population. There was set up by legislation an advisory committee on finance. It was selected from among the elected representatives sitting on the council and consisted of three members.
This advisory committee on finance was to consult with the Commissioner. In fact, the legislative amendment to the Yukon Act at that time made it obligatory for the Commissioner to consult with the advisory committee on finance before he brought in a budget.
Another notable change was that the Commissioner, for the first time in history, was selected from among the people in the Yukon and was not a civil servant from Ottawa.
Then, also, there was a Court of Appeal set up for the Yukon so that we need not travel cap in hand to the province of British Columbia to take our appeals to their judiciary system. In addition, the franchise in the Northwest Territories was extended to the Keewatin and Franklin districts where hundreds of Canadians had been denied the vote for many, many years-in fact, since 1867. These are some of the reforms that were brought about and others would have followed had the government of that day continued.
What is the record since the change of government in 1963? All the amendments I can recall having seen was that sop of increased indemnities to the members of the councils of both territories. There was an increase in the number on the Council in the Northwest Territories, but it was really insignificant.
I want to make it clear from the outset that what the members of the Yukon council desire is not provincial status. There is no way their requests can be misconstrued and distorted to the extent that one can say they are seeking provincial status. In a moment I

will read into the record a resolution passed by that Council, and which has been passed in successive years.
I want to make another distinction. Members of the Indian Affairs and Northern Development Committee who travelled to the Yukon last year heard the councillors themselves assure them, as members of Parliament, that this idea that there was a separate territorial government in the Yukon as distinct from the federal government was a fiction. This is wrong and a distortion of the truth. For a minister of the Crown, and for civil servants both here and in the Yukon, to deliberately attempt to create the image that there is a distinct form of territorial government is wrong; there is not, neither in the Yukon nor in the Northwest Territories.
The Commissioner in the Yukon and the Commissioner in the Northwest Territories are appointed civil servants who take their instructions from the minister and do exactly what the minister tells them to do; nothing more and nothing less. It is wrong for the minister to say that he has to abide by the decisions of the Commissioner of either territory. This is creating a false impression.
What is it that the council of the YTxkon desires? As far back as ten years ago the strongest political party in the Yukon at that time, the Progressive Conservative Party, advocated a progressive evolution toward responsible government. That philosophy was embodied in a resolution which was passed by the Yukon territorial council, the last one on January 23, 1968, and it reads as follows:
Whereas the history of our nation serves as our proudest reminder of high endeavour and steadfast recognition of the great principles of Democracy; and
Whereas this Council desires to affirm its belief that the growth and full measure of the Canadian Nation cannot be achieved until the Seal of Democracy is set upon all corners of our land; and
Whereas to delay and frustrate the emergence of full partnership for any of our lands and peoples is alien to the principles which this Nation holds dear; and
Whereas this Council is desirous of accepting those principles of constitutional development that will result in the introduction of a responsible system of government to the Yukon territory; and
Whereas the wishes of the Members of the Yukon Legislative Council should be embodied in any planned constitutional changes;
Be it resolved that: The Commissioner be requested to forward to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development for his submission to the Government of Canada on behalf of the council of the Yukon territory the accompanying resolution:
November 21, 1969

And be it further resolved that the Statutes of Canada be amended wherever necessary to give effect to the constitutional changes hereafter set forth.
A)	The Council of the Yukon Territory to be known as the Yukon Legislative Assembly.
Surely, there can be no objection to that kind of change. The resolution continues:
B)	The number of Members of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be increased to 15 and the term of the Assembly to be increased to four years.
The minister, in his announcement in the Yukon, said that it is his intention to increase the term of the council to four years, but I ask members of the House how there can be any real division unless there are sufficient members in a democratic legislative body within which that division might be formed? Surely, it is redundant for me to suggest to members of the House that in order for there to emerge any kind of healthy policy on the part of any government there must be a clash of opinion brought about by division.
The resolution continues:
C)	The Advisory Committee on Finance to be replaced by an Executive Council of not less than five members with full executive powers in the following classes of subjects
i)	Education, Health and Welfare
Surely, the minister who has the responsibility for this portfolio can appreciate the desire of the people of the Yukon, and particularly the parents in the Yukon, to be able to set the curricula through their elected representatives rather than having the State tell them what their children are going to be taught. Surely, the minister understands that principle. I shall continue:
[DOT] (12 noon)
ii)	Territorial resources including land.
I wish to make another thing quite clear here. The members of the council in the Yukon are not asking for control over natural resources. They do not ask for administrative responsibility over waters, mines, minerals, oil and gas. We say "territorial resources" because the skills that must be exercised in order to manage a resource such as water in the Yukon must be attained before accepting or even asking for that kind of responsibility. But surely we are mature enough to take over the management of our game, our forests and our lands, together with their disposition, to mention a few. We say, too, we are mature enough to take over public works, and the council requests that administrative responsibility. The fourth area is "justice and corrections". In that connection, I was happy to note
Yukon and N.W.T. Government the cautious announcement the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner) made yesterday, but this does not change the existing system.
The fifth subject is revenue and finance. The sixth is forestry. The seventh is fisheries. The eighth reads as follows:
All residual executive and administrative functions including industry and labour controlled or performed by the federal government, and the Legislative Assembly to have exclusive legislative jurisdiction to make laws for the government of the territory in relation to the above classes of subjects in addition to the legislative powers existing under Section 16 of the Yukon Act as amended.
Then, there is the following:
D)	The number of members of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be further increased at such time as the Yukon Legislative Assembly determines it appropriate that all necessary legislative and other changes are to be effected to constitute the Province of Yukon with the same legislative and executive powers as those which exist in the provinces of Canada.
A careful reading of that part of the resolution will disclose to members that it is not a request for provincial status at this time, although a deliberate attempt I think has been made to convey that impression. Paragraph E reads as follows:
The members to be given all necessary authority analogous to that in provincial legislative assemblies to establish their indemnities and allowances and to have all the requisite powers to establish or participate in pension plan or group health plan.
I must say that the minister, in his announced intentions, has said that he intends to give the members of the council freedom to set their own indemnities and in that respect the council will be answerable to the electorate.
F) Section 24 of the Yukon Act to be repealed.
That^ section provides that an elected member sitting on the council of either territory shall not introduce a money bill. There is the rub. The only individual who can place any money legislation before the council of either territory is the Commissioner, and he only acts upon the instruction of the minister. The minister, in his speech at both Yellowknife and in the Yukon, to both councils, said there are many areas in which the elected representatives are not fully accountable to the electorate. Unfortunately, he said two such areas are the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories. I ask the minister where else in the free or democratic world is there any other area in which people tax themselves but are not permitted to spend a penny of the tax money. That is the situation in the Yukon Territory and in the Northwest
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government Territories. We have a wholly elected council. All seven members are elected, but they are only rubber stamps for the policy enunciated to the commission by the minister. Then we have paragraph G:
The status of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be enlarged so that it shall have full capacity to attend all inter-provincial and federal-provincial conferences and to participate in resulting discussions and agreements.
I ask, why not; why do not Canadians in the north, through their elected representatives, have a voice in such things as the constitutional conference? Why must the Yukon and the Northwest Territories be represented at constitutional conferences by a civil servant?
H)	The Land Titles Act to be repealed in respect of the Yukon Territory and replaced by a Land Titles Ordinance.
I)	All Crown land to be held in the name of the Crown in right of the Territory.
I should like to make another thing clear. In all these points I am making on behalf of the members of the council, they are not asking for the transference of all Crown land to their control. They merely ask that the land now held by the Crown in the right of Canada in the Yukon be transferred to the Crown in the right of the territory in the same way it is held in the provinces.
How different is that resolution from the official stand of the Yukon Liberal party? Let me read the resolution of the Yukon Liberal party which was held out to the electorate during the last election. It reads:
WHEREAS all indications point to a period of development in the Yukon Territory greater and more sustained than that of the Gold Rush;
I agree, as I am sure the minister does.
AND WHEREAS as a consequence of that development it is expected that the population of the Yukon will increase substantially;
It has. It is far greater than DBS has led the minister to believe it is. The DBS figure is
16.000	and the minister uses the figure 18,000. I suggest to the minister the figure is closer to
25.000	now. I suggest also that if the minister were really up-to-date in respect of the Yukon-I am sure he cannot live there-and were properly informed by the officials, he would know this. His departmental officials have no sympathy with this move because if it were adopted they would be out of a job eventually, and so far as we are concerned the quicker the better.
The minister has said that great strides have been made toward progressing to selfgovernment in the Northwest Territories, but

all that has happened has been that masses of civil servants have been moved from Ottawa to Yellowknife.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: You should get your facts right.


Erik Nielsen: 
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Does the House give unanimous consent for the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Erik Nielsen: I thank hon. members for their indulgence, particularly in vew of the fact that this matter is so close to the hearts of the people of the Yukon and Northwest Territories. They want a fair hearing on it, and fair participation in the debate. May I quote from the Ottawa Citizen of November 13 as follows:
Secondly, the potential wealth of the Yukon, particularly the discovery of Prudhoe Bay oil in Alaska, is so great that the federal government simply can't go along with the idea that they should benefit a population that constitutes less than 0.1 per cent of the total Canadian population.
So, Mr. Speaker, we are struck by the swings and the roundabouts alike. On the one hand, we have been told for many years, "I am sorry, you cannot have any form of responsible government, any reform, because you are not paying your way." On the other hand, we are now told that because of these great discoveries, and the potential revenues
November 21, 19G9
from them, there is too much for us to handle, and much too much to be devoted entirely to the Yukon. But isn't that what our federal system is all about?
The minister stated in his speech or, if I may call it, his white paper:
I am convinced that disposing of these alternatives-
These included the alternative of giving the Yukon to B.C., or extending the boundaries of the provinces northward to the Arctic Sea, or joining us with the Mackenzie or other parts of the provinces. He rejected all of these alternatives, and for that part of his policy I applaud him, as we all do the people in the Yukon. That is one nice thing I have to say about his remarks. But I continue with the quotation:
I am convinced that disposing of these alternatives clears the way, simply and effectively, for the consideration of needed reforms that will give you a greater measure of territorial self-government-
I say that is unadulterated balderdash. The minister also says that one of the prime difficulties is bringing the executive and legislative arms of government closer together. This white paper, the minister's remarks, and the telegram which the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) sent to members of the Yukon Council yesterday inviting their delegation to Ottawa to discuss these matters with him, all create the impression that the greatest difficulty we are encountering in the Yukon is getting the executive and legislative arms together. The impression is left that the executive is an elected executive. This is simply not so.
The so-called executive in the Yukon is the Commissioner and his two assistants. They are civil servants, and they are not really an executive. They are administrators, and they administer on the instructions of the minister. When the minister speaks of an executive in this white paper, let us call it what it is. Let us substitute the correct term for executive in his statement, and it then states that the difficulty is in getting the legislative arm of the government in closer tune with the civil servants. That is what is intended, and that is what is meant. That is precisely what this devious device would have accomplished if the minister's wishes had been accepted in set'ing up this committee.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the hon. member. He has just said that the civil servants act under the direction of the minister. Does he not agree that the minister is an elected representative, and has
Yukon and N.W.T. Government he such a low opinion of the federal representative elected in the Yukon?


Erik Nielsen: I certainly do not. The minister will have noted that I have not said any unkind things about him in this House since he first sat on the treasury benches, nor have I done so in my riding. I will continue that course until I have cause to do otherwise. But surely this is what is preventing the minister from granting the legitimate desires of the Yukon. We think he is a great guy. We think he is rather too nice. But what is wrong with people who are elected from among themselves deciding what should be in the curricula of their schools? Why should we have the minister telling us that? The answer is abundantly clear. He would not want his children, no matter where they live, to be told by someone living in Ottawa what they were going to be taught.
It is wrong to have that power residing in the minister. This argument is very compelling and I am sure he must agree with me. He says he wants to strengthen the links between the so-called executive and the legislature. What he means is that he wants to strengthen and entrench the powers of the civil servants over the elected representatives of the people. That is what would be accomplished if this executive committee were set up. The majority of three would be civil servants.
But what is worse, the one elected member of the council invited to sit with these three civil servants would be given responsibility for a department or departments of the territorial government, but the rider is that would be subject to the control of the Commissioner. In plain words, that means subject to the control of the minister, and while we have every confidence in him we do not think that is responsible government.
There is only one body to whom an elected representative should be responsible, and that is the people who voted for him. It is not the civil service. Surely, that is the soundest principle. With great respect for the minister's abilities, capacities and integrity, it is not to him that the elected representative should be responsible. We want to have a word in deciding our own destinies. We want to play a part in making the decisions ourselves. That is our right. It is the right of free people everywhere. It is the right of every Canadian, and if we are to believe the words of the Prime Minister at the constitutional conference last February, it is a right that cannot be withheld from us any longer.

November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government
I do not intend to take up any more time, Mr. Speaker. I simply make this plea to members of the House, and in particular to members who sit on the treasury benches, that they heed the reasonable requests of the people of the Yukon and the reasonable requests of the people of the Northwest Territories. They are not asking for the impossible. They are asking for a gradual separation from civil service control.
[DOT] (12:30 p.m.)
They are asking for the gradual evolution of the decision making process from the bureaucrats to the elected representatives of the people. The people of the Yukon did not elect the minister; they elected me to come here and make this kind of plea to the minister. They elected seven members of the council and they do not want them just to be rubber stamps on federal decisions; they want to make their own decisions. They are not irresponsible people; they are not going to throw money out of the window or dump it into the Yukon River or raise their indemnities to three times what they are getting now. They are responsible, intelligent individuals with the capacity to make fiscal decisions, such as those made by municipalities or school boards or like bodies.


Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Speaker, I will begin by saying that as I listened to the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) who commenced this debate, I was struck by what I consider the very important differences between the situation in the Yukon and that in the Northwest Territories resulting from the tremendous geographical differences between the two areas and the tremendous differences in the living conditions of the indigenous Indian and Eskimo people and the white people. It seems to me that these facts must be kept in mind in discussing the problems of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
If I understood the speeches made by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, it seemed to me that there were two important points to be considered. One was his approach to the problems of self-government. He praised the Carrothers Commission and its recommendations but it seemed to me, as I tried to analyze how he intended to implement these recommendations, that 100 years from today the Canadian Parliament would still be discussing just when these recommendations 
should be implemented. That is the rate at which the minister seems to want to move.
I have to agree with the hon. member for the Yukon who said a few minutes ago that in effect the minister's policy leaves a tremendous amount of the power of decisionmaking and implementation to the bureaucracy, the civil servants, and not to the people of the territory nor the minister.


Erik Nielsen: Oh, no.


David Orlikow: As the Carrothers Commission recommended, a part of the administration has been transferred to Yellowknife. This has had some good and some bad effects. In some cases the decision-making process has been slowed down because Yellowknife has to consult Ottawa. The Commissioner has to get approval from the minister, the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister and so on.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. member will allow me a question at this point, while I can see the way he is directing his remarks. I should like him to explain to the House of Commons why the people of Churchill would rather be under the federal administration of the Territories than under the N.D.P. administration of the Manitoba government?


David Orlikow: Mr. Speaker, if the minister wants to participate on a very partisan basis I am prepared to do that when we have the time, but not in the 20 minutes that I have now. If the minister is seriously suggesting that the government of Manitoba, which took over on July 15 this year, could have begun to solve the most elementary problems of Churchill, then I have even less respect for the minister's common sense and judgment than I thought I had. The minister should know that if the federal government would get off its butt and do a simple thing like extending the shipping season at Churchill, a great many of that town's problems would be solved. That is something for which the present N.D.P. government nor the former Conservative government of Manitoba cannot be blamed.
It seemed to me that the most important aspect of the problem of the indigenous people of the Northwest Territories, the Eskimos and the Indians, was completely ignored by the minister in his speeches in the north, to which I have referred. The minister has spoken frequently and with pride about the tremendous increase in federal government expenditures to improve the lot of the native people in the far north. A great deal
November 21, 1969

more money is being spent on education, health services and housing than in the past. For this, the present government and the former one should be commended. However, when one compares that with what needs to be done to bring the standards of the native people up to the standards of the rest of the North American continent in 1969, one can see that there is a long way to go still. There was not a word about that in the minister's speech, Mr. Speaker.
Let me just summarize the situation and put on record some of the most recent figures. For the year 1964, the mortality rate of Eskimo children aged one to four years was 13 times the all-Canada rate. The average age for deceased persons in the Territories in 1964 was 19.3 years for Eskimos, 29.9 years for Indians and 34.3 years for whites, as compared with 61 years for all Canada. There are extreme income differentials between the native people and the white people in the Territories. The following figures are an excellent indicator of the very dangerous coincidence of social class and ethnic background. In 1963, the average income of whites in the Northwest Territories was $2,922, almost 70 per cent above the Canadian average. At the same time, the average per capita income for Indians was $510 and for Eskimos $426.
I cannot claim to be an expert like the member for the Yukon and the member for the Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange), nor have I had the opportunity to visit the north like the present minister, but anybody who has been there knows of the tremendous difference in the housing facilities available for most of the native people as compared with that for the white people in the Territories, most of whom work for the government or private industry. I am sorry the minister has left the House, but I am sure it is for reasons which are important to him. Apparently at Inuvik, the show place of the far north created by past Canadian governments, virtually all the white population live in homes connected with the utilities provided by the government and nearly all the Indian and Eskimo people live in houses not so connected. It seems to me that this is the kind of thing we must face up to before we can claim that we are beginning to face up to the problems of the north.
[DOT] (12:40 p.m.)
Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to some of the important recommendations of the Carrothers Commission and look at how
Yukon and N.W.T. Government the minister proposes to deal with them. We commend the government and the minister for approving the position of the Carrothers Commission and rejecting the idea that the territories should be divided into two or more political units. We commend the minister for giving assurances that the Commissioner is to be more accountable to the territorial council for his executive actions than was the case in the past. The Carrothers Commission recommended the appointment of an executive council which would advise the Commissioner and administer territorial affairs. We believe that the minister's decision to add two elected members to the territorial council, one of whom must be a member of the executive, is a policy of tokenism and is not acceptable to parliament in the year 1969. We believe that the proposal of the Carrothers Commission that there be a progressive increase in the legislative and constitutional powers of the territorial council, whenever that council is desirous of so increasing its powers, is good and should be given more consideration than the minister has apparently given to it.
It is fair to say, I suppose, that in this field the minister has left us with two alternatives. One is a continuation of the present situation, and the other is the creation of provincial status for the territories. Of course, someone more important than the minister has made a pronouncement in this field. Answering some questions several days ago, the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) suggested that we want provincial status for the territories now but that the government is not prepared to give it. We have, to my knowledge, never said that provincial status now or in the near future for the territories is a viable proposal. The Prime Minister, when answering that question, set up a straw man to knock down. He is very good at that technique.
What bothers me is that the government's program, as enunciated in ministerial speeches, does not provide adequately for the orderly and sensible economic and social development of the northern half of Canada. True, we are making provision for much larger expenditures in the north, and I want to deal with those. The minister proposes, as the estimates indicate, to spend more government money on roads, airports, railways if railways are a feasible idea, water services, meteorological studies and all other services which are necessary if economic development is to go forward. These expenditures, we think, are necessary.
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November 21. 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government
Having agreed to undertake the tremendous expenditures necessary if northern development is to be possible, the government says, "We will give to those who are searching for oil or minerals virtually a free hand. We will give them concessions. We will provide subsidies or loans to any who can find minerals, power, oil, natural gas or anything else of value in the north country." All these people may go in and enjoy the special advantages of tax provisions which allow for fast writeoffs and fast depreciation.
The government will be spending the money, Mr. Speaker, on developing the north but the private entrepreneur, speculator or businessman will reap the harvest. We think that is not good enough. We think that if the government is to spend tremendous sums in installing basic services which are necessary for development, it, representing the people of Canada, at least ought to be a partner in reaping the harvest. The government should share in the benefits of development and not just put up the money.
May I now speak again of what I consider the basic defects in the minister's approach to the Carrothers Commission's recommendations. The Carrothers Commission said that education is the touchstone to the future of the north. That is true. I will not be unfair and say the government has done nothing about education. Of course, it has done a great deal about education. We spend more money educating our young people in the north than ever before. Indian and Eskimo children are staying in school longer than ever. But I am disturbed about the kind of education they are getting. It ignores completely their hereditary cultures and languages. I have heard of teachers not speaking one word of the Eskimo or Indian language teaching grade 1 Indian or Eskimo children who spoke not a word of English. Teachers go into the north country after going through, at most, a two or three week crash course designed to acquaint them with the problems, history and culture of the north country. That kind of thing just is not good enough-unless, consciously or subconsciously, we are trying to assimilate completely the native people of northern Canada and make their culture, language and way of life disappear completely. I do not know if that is the minister's approach but it certainly is not mine nor my party's. We believe that the Indians and Eskimos of the north have the democratic right of choosing their way of life. They have the right of choosing if they want to work as the white man works and live as the white man lives.
That choice must be left entirely to them. But it is our responsibility to make sure they have that choice. In other words, it is our responsibility to provide education, housing, health standards and employment opportunities so that if they want to adopt our way of life, they may do so.
I recognize our dilemma. I have said that we believe the territorial councils should be given more power; but we also recognize that if they are given more power immediately the white people in the territories, and I am speaking particularly of the Northwest Territories, will quickly control to a greater extent the destiny of the territories. As the Carrothers Commission said, the white people have the education, drive and know-how, and they are the ones who are elected to the territorial councils.
Speaking from memory, and I do not think I am wrong, I do not recall one Eskimo being included in the Northwest Territories Council-


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: One Eskimo is elected and one is appointed.
[DOT] (12:50 p.m.)


David Orlikow: After listening to the people, one does not have to be an expert to realize that the real power rests with the white people because of their experience and background. We think this is wrong, Mr. Speaker. The majority of the people in the Northwest Territories are, and will continue to be for many years, of Indian and Eskimo origin.
How should we deal with this situation? We believe the way to do it would be to encourage a very rapid extension of local government to many more communities. The minister talked about doing this, but there is very little evidence that he has in fact done much to extend local government to the communities in a form appropriate to those communities. We believe the powers given to local government, whether it is called a municipal council, band council or local district, must be increased. We agree with the minister that the most important area for the growth of self-government lies with the local communities.
Many of the institutions of local government are unfamiliar to the native people. Both the institutions and the people will have to change. It is only when the native peoples have learned the lesson of political power and how to exercise it that the necessary redistribution of power in the north can take place.

November 21, 1969	COMMONS
If the minister and his administration would co-operate in providing the framework for meaningful local government in the Indian and Eskimo communities for a few years, these Indians and Eskimos would have the experience with our kind of government. They would then have the self confidence to nominate in large numbers Indian and Eskimo people for the territorial council, which has not been done up to now, and elect these people. After election, they would play a meaningful role in the government of the Northwest Territories.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is there unanimous consent to allow the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


David Orlikow: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will not be too long. We are concerned with the approach of the minister and his department to the demands of the white communities of the north. I am not being critical of these white communities. I understand to a large extent these demands for increased selfgovernment are legitimate. This to a large extent is cultural. Unless we adopt a more aggressive policy than I feel is going to be adopted, there will be cultural genocide to a large extent for the native people of northern Canada.
What are the facts, Mr. Speaker? The nature of white culture allows the white man to prosper in the north. If the government of Canada provided the service I talked about, there would be a good deal of room for expansion of the so-called free enterprise system. The free enterprise system, whether it be the large mining, timber, oil or gas enterprise or the small businesses established to provide for the people who live in the territories, particularly the people who live in the wage economy, is made to order for the white people who go to the north country. I do not say this in a critical sense. It is a statement of fact. That kind of society, to a large extent, is foreign to the Indian and Eskimo people. They are either completely frozen out of that kind of society or have become the hewers of wood and the drawers of water.
21362-70J
DEBATES	1103
Yukon and N.W.T. Government
The problem is not that the Indian and Eskimo people lack initiative. There is plenty of evidence of their initiative in the north country. An example of this is the way the Eskimo people moved in quickly to handle much of the work on the DEW Line, some of which was pretty skilled and complicated work. This indicates that, if given the opportunity, they fit into our kind of society. However, they have not up until now lived in this way and many of them simply do not understand this way of life.
We believe that the federal government has the prime responsibility for supporting the maximum retention of the cultural traditions of the native people in the Northwest Territories. We recognize that economic development will require many social and cultural changes, but these must not be imposed either by intent or by ignoring the background and tradition of the Indian and Eskimo people in the north country. As I said earlier, there must be a rapid expansion of encouraging local government by educating the Indian and Eskimo peoples to our way of life.
On the economic side of the problem, we suggest if the government really wants to bring about improved conditions for the Indian and Eskimo people of northern Canada, they should give a great deal more consideration to the encouragement of co-operative enterprise. The Indian and Eskimo people of the north have traditionally worked together. They work together in fishing, trapping and catching of seals and whales. The government should develop special programs for encouraging co-operative enterprise by the Indian and Eskimo people of the north.
To a large extent, we agree with the sentiments expressed in the motion moved on behalf of the leader of the official opposition. We have not all had an opportunity of seeing the resolutions passed by the territorial councils. Possibly, to a certain extent, that is our own fault. We may have some reservations about their views, some of which were dispelled by the hon. member for Yukon in his speech. We have great reservations about the ability of the native people of the north. Unless they are given a great deal more support to develop to the point where they can have a meaningful way of life, these problems will still exist in future generations.
The government must do a great deal more than it has done in the past. The minister must have more faith in the people of the north, both white and native, and a great deal less confidence in the idea that civil servants,
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government the bureaucracy, whether they live in Ottawa or Yellowknife, are really competent to settle all the problems of the north.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. It being one o'clock I now leave the chair until 2 p.m.
At one o'clock the House took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The House resumed at 2 p.m.
Mr. Gerard Laprise (Abiiibi):: Mr. Speaker, we are today looking into a motion brought forward by the Official Opposition, involving problems related to the Northwest and Yukon territories, with which I am not quite in agreement. Although it is vague, I feel the motion deserves our attention.
In the Northwest Territories, as in any of the ten Canadian provinces, there are problems related to finance and development, due to very low population density.
In fact, expanses as large as the Northwest Territories and the Yukon contain respectively 32,000 and 16,000 inhabitants only. It is therefore obvious that any mining or other development program, as well as the building of roads and the installation of modern facilities, involves substantial costs that should be spread in proportion to the population.
From the figures quoted by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien), on his recent trip to Whitehorse and Yellowknife, we realize that in 1969, for instance, the Canadian government spent in the Yukon a net amount of $2,250 per capita, and $2,281 in the Northwest Territories.
Those amounts may seem astronomical, but taking into account the size of the territories and the distances between towns and Indian or Eskimo posts, such expenses are explainable.
Is it absolutely necessary to push on mining prospection to that extent, since the southern regions are now being developed and there are still natural resources which have not yet been worked.
There is, for example, a rather important iron ore deposit near Val-d'Or, a town which is quite well organized and which is served by a railway, a road system and one of the


nicest airports in Quebec. It also enjoys power and telephone services, hospitals, stores, in one word, all the facilities of a modern city.
Something should be done to get industrialists interested in mining in this region before they spend huge amounts to develop territories difficult of access, where people must be brought and cities built. In my opinion, it would be more profitable to develop the mines in the vicinity of organized centers.
For minerals, which are the main natural resources in these territories, the markets seem to be excellent, but foreign capital is necessary to exploit them.
At Whitehorse and Dawson City I noticed that to exploit its mines the Yukon has to rely mainly on Japanese capital. Canadian capital is undoubtedly lacking. American investors are reluctant, maybe because they are far away. However, since Japan needs copper and iron so much, it is ready to invest in Canada. In fact, the Japanese are interested in bringing into their country ore to be processed there and then put on the international market. That is how our ore comes back to us as manufactured goods.
Since we want to develop our natural resources-which is desirable-we should find a way to process on the spot as much ore as possible so as to create a great many jobs in Canada.
I know of a law passed recently in Ontario, under which in that province, at least as concerns provincial jurisdiction, all natural resources must be processed, whenever possible, on the spot where they are exploited. This legislation is therefore designed to benefit some areas substantially, including that part of Ontario located close to northern Quebec. I feel that such legislation ought to be enacted by the federal government.
I do not intend to elaborate on the problems of northern Canada and the Northwest Territories this afternoon. I know that other hon. members are better informed than I am of the conditions and problems particular to that area. I shall rather limit myself to listening to them and providing them with an opportunity to express their opinions and ideas.
[DOT] (2:10 p.m.)


Robert John (Bud) Orange: Mr. Speaker, on entering this debate I should like to say that my first
November 21, 1969

reaction when the opposition motion appeared on the order paper was that there would be a great number of bitter words said in this chamber regarding statements of the minister about the growth of self government in the Yukon territory and in the Northwest Territories. When I read the motion, it became obvious to me that we might become embroiled in a meaningless discussion during this valuable time for us from the north, and those interested in Canada's north, to express our views. Having listened to the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen), who is obviously the man who convinced his party that this was an important subject-for which I congratulate him

and having listened to other members regarding their feelings about the north, I hope and know the minister will take into account the constructive suggestions made to him today.
These suggestions have related to self-government and policies regarding social, political and economic development of the north. Just before entering the chamber I found an ad in an Ottawa newspaper, dated November 18 which may have caused a little doubt about the motives behind the opposition motion.


Erik Nielsen: Read it, Bud; read it.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: I intend to.


Erik Nielsen: Read the one I sent you.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: It reads:
Wanted. One member of Parliament. Willing to represent the Yukon Territorial Council in its moves to achieve responsible government. Apply to Don Taylor, Room 207, The Taku hotel, Whitehorse, Y.T.
I am wondering whether there is not something more than coincidence in this regard. I should point out also-
[DOT] (2:20 p.m.)


Erik Nielsen: Read the one in your hand.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: -that the gentleman I just named is a prominent Liberal in the Yukon. I might suggest that he feels the same way as the hon. member across the way with regard to self-government in the Yukon Territory. When the minister made the statement-I regret it was long overdue; we would have liked to have had it a year or a year and a half before-he said a number of significant things to the people in the Northwest Territories. He mentioned the addition of two elected members to the territorial council. I shall come back to that later. He stated that the
Yukon and N.W.T. Government term of council would be increased from three years to four years. He left the council the option of reducing the voting age. He reduced the period for disallowance of legislation from two years to one year. He offered members the opportunity of setting their own indemnities. This is most important in relation to their responsibilites as elected members.
The minister set up a vehicle called a standing committee to be a committee of the territorial council to meet with the Commissioner to discuss the financial aspects of territorial operations. I regret that, in my opinion and in the opinion of the people in the Northwest Territories, the minister did not go as far as he should have gone. When he presents his legislation I would like to see a provision that the number of additional council members elected will be four rather than two. I serve notice to the minister now that when the legislation goes before a committee, if this provision is not contained in it, I intend to move an amendment in this regard.


Erik Nielsen: Are you going to resign as parliamentary secretary, too?


Robert John (Bud) Orange: In respect of the voting age, I believe it should be the responsibility of the council to make the decision. I do not think we, in this parliament, should say at what age people in the north should vote. I hope there will be provisions which would allow the Commissioners of both territories to borrow money without going through the tedious processes of the Treasury Board and the Department of Finance in Ottawa.


Erik Nielsen: We have that power now.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: We do not have it completely.


Erik Nielsen: The Commissioner has the power now in the Yukon Territory.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: The hon. member across the way says that in the Yukon Territory the Commissioner has that power. I hope the same situation will apply in the Northwest Territories. The most important power, however, is that the members of the council be able to participate meaningfully in government and have some say in the development of programs, policies and the spending of money.
At the moment, the council in the Northwest Territories basically is Her Majesty's loyal opposition to the Commissioner. In order to bring responsible government to the people in the north, this kind of philosophy must

November 21, 1969
Yukon and N.W.T. Government disappear. The Carrothers Commission suggested that an executive council be established which would do a number of things. According to the Carrothers Commission, a member of the executive council would not be required to be an elected member of the legislative assembly in order to qualify for appoinlment. The executive council would be presided over by the Commissioner. Each member normally would be charged with the administration of one or more departments in the territorial government. The executive council would co-ordinate finance, prepare the budget, prepare legislation in principle and generally tender advice on any territorial matter on which the Commissioner should seek advice.
I would ask the minister to take another look at the question of the establishment of an executive council in the Northwest Territories. Without breaking down the principles in which the minister believes, I think we could achieve some sort of accommodation which would bring about this meaningful participation in government by members of the council. If the minister does not wish to involve the members of the council in operating departments at this stage, the executive council could consist of elected representatives, the Commissioner, the deputy commissioner and the senior financial official who could carry out the co-ordination of financial papers, the budget, legislation in principle and generally tender views on any territorial matter.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the hon. member. In his view, who should be in the majority on such a council; should it be the elected members or the civil servants?


Robert John (Bud) Orange: My idea is that members of council should be the majority with the deputy Commissioner as a member of council.
The government has gone a long way in northern Canada in terms of bringing meaningful government to the people. Let us look at the record. The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) outlined the progress in the Yukon Territory. Let me say something about the Northwest Territories. Up until 1959 the council of the Northwest Territories consisted of five appointed civil servants from Ottawa and four elected representatives from the north. In 1959 with the exception of the deputy Commissioner who is a member of council the four appointed members of council came from outside the civil service. This

was sort of a step forward. It was a meagre one but also an important one.
In 1962, the former government came up with a proposal to divide the Northwest Territories. In 1963, this was passed on to the new government and as a result of committee hearings, at which there was a good deal of objection on the part of the people in the north, the idea of dividing the territories was put aside. In 1965 the former minister, the present Minister of Public Works (Mr. Laing) came up with the idea of obtaining at first hand from the people of the north their ideas and views on the form and shape the government should take. The commission called the Carrothers Commission reported to the minister in 1966. Prior to the receipt of this report however, this government extended in the Northwest Territories the territorial franchise to the eastern and central Arctic by the addition of three more constituencies which brought the total of elected members to seven. This for the first time gave them the majority.
In 1967, the implementation of the Carrothers Commission recommendations was under way. First of all Yellowknife was declared to be the capital. A crash move to bring the government to the people in the north took place and in September 1967 the Commissioner arrived at Yellowknife with his staff to take up full time residence and work in the territories.
Let us look at some other aspects of the Carrothers Commission report as it affects us in the north. The first important recommendation was non-division. The minister supported this stand and went further. He reminded land hungry provincial premiers they should keep their eyes and hands off the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories. Yellowknife has been declared the capital of the territories. The Carrothers Commission-and there is general support in the House and from the people in the north-does not recommend provincial status at this time. 1 must take issue with the minister when in reiterating the principle in this statement he used the phrase "for the foreseeable future". The future is something we cannot predict. With the boom in economic development in the north, we believe the situation could change so rapidly that no government would wish to be locked into the position that there is no potential province or that there are no potential provinces in northern Canada. I would hope it would be the objective of all Canadians to see further provinces some day in northern Canada.
November 21, 1969	COMMONS
[DOT] (2:30 p.m.)
The recommendations with regard to the Commissioner and deputy Commissioner have been carried out. With regard to the suggestions of the Carrothers Commission concerning the legislative assembly, again I cannot understand why there is so much reluctance to changing the name "council" to "assembly". I may be missing the point, but it seems to me that it could have been handled in about 30 seconds time. We have extended the life of the council to four years and we have given the members of the council the right to set their indemnity. The transfer of public lands in and around municipalities is in effect. As suggested, a lands title office was established in Yellowknife in 1967.
With regard to the administration, the heart, the guts of a proper government structure, Carrothers said:
We recommend that administrative functions be transferred to the territorial civil service on a specified schedule as soon as practicable.
He said this in 1966, and on April 1 of 1970 all of the former federal civil servants of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development will have been transferred, both in the Mackenzie district and in the eastern Arctic, and all the people who were formerly federal civil servants carrying out provincial type activities for the federal government will become territorial employees.
I must take issue at this time with a remark made by the hon. member for Yukon when he suggested that all we were really doing was to impose another level of bureaucracy by transferring from Ottawa to Yellowknife all the administration that was carried out here. He seemed to think that this would not work. I say that in order to carry out the functions of government, and to do the things that people want, one has to have a public service. Not only that, but the public service, as it has been developed and is being developed in the north, is going out to the private sector in the south and in the north. I suggest that of the former incumbents of positions who carried out territorial functions very few knew the north, and fortunately they are the ones who did not want to move north, who have stayed in Ottawa and are doing something else now.


Erik Nielsen: May I ask the hon. member a question? I agree completely with what the hon. member said, but does he not agree with me that the real question is: who is to control that civil service, whether or not the Commis-
DEBATES	1107
Yukon and N.W.T. Government sioner under the direction of the minister is to continue to control it or will it be the elected representatives of the people?


Robert John (Bud) Orange: I am sure that the hon. member has been at Territorial Council meetings in both the territories and is well aware of the way in which the Territorial Council can control the public service through the finance committee, in the Yukon, the standing committee or, hopefully the executive council which we will have in the territories in the years to come.


Erik Nielsen: Surely, the hon. member does not want to leave the impression there is a scintilla of control over the civil service in the Northwest Territories. There is not in the Yukon.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: Is there any by this parliament of the federal civil service?
Carrothers made a number of recommendations regarding economic development and finance within the territorial government, and these have been implemented.
A Northwest Territories development board composed of representatives of the federal and territorial governments and Economic Council of Canada has not been created because, as I understand it, the Economic Council decided they did not want to be involved in regional development. However, the federal and territorial administrations are working closely together and in consultation with each other.
The Small Businesses Loans Act which should be in effect very shortly will be implemented under a combined federal and territorial jurisdiction, with the responsibility resting on the territorial government. Credit committees are to be established among private citizens from the north.
There is a recommendation that a department of local government be established in order to allow communities to participate more fully in the activities that affect their lives. Carrothers recommended that there be a department of public works, a department of welfare and social services, law enforcement and a judicial system. The Commission recommended that there be a department of justice, and that territorial magistrates and other judicial officers whose jurisdiction is equivalent to that of judicial officers appointed in the provinces by provincial authority be appointed by the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories. This week the Minister of Justice (Mr. Turner) released his recommen-
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government dations with regard to the administration of justice as set out in the report of the Carroth-ers Commission. He said:
The federal proposal Is a matter for negotiation between the territorial governments and Ottawa and includes the following matters which could become the proper responsibility of local territorial officials:
The appointment and payment of judicial officers except Judges of the Territorial Courts;
The constitution of courts having civil as well as criminal jurisdiction, subject to the condition that the existing federal statutory provisions establishing the courts of original and appellate jurisdiction be part of relevant ordinances;
The provision and maintenance of the necessary personnel and physical plant for the efficient administration of justice and the functioning of the judicial system;
The provision of complete legal services to the Commissioner, the Council, and the several departments of local government;
So far the reaction to this statement in the Northwest Territories has been good. We have received a presentation today from the president of the Northwest Territories Bar congratulating the Minister of Justice as follows:
NWT Bar welcomes the progressive proposal to transfer responsibilities to the Commissioner regarding justice.
Mark Deweerdt,
President.
I could go on at great length about the constitutional development. We know that much more must be done and that it must be done quickly. I recognize that there is a difference between the Northwest Territory and the Yukon with regard to the speed of political development.
I spoke today of the things which I would like to see happen in the Northwest Territories to speed up this process of political development without going beyond what I believe is the general government policy. I would also like to say to the minister that while we tend to become involved in constitutional arguments, there is still a great deal to be done in northern Canada. Those of us who have lived in the north know the frustration of trying to deal with a system which somehow or other sometimes does not seem to equate with the people. We know the frustration of going into a community where there is a housing program to learn that the program will not be completed this year and that 20 families may have to live in substandard housing for another winter. One knows, too, that only a few dollars were involved and, because of poor planning on the part of administrators, funds were not available when they should


have been, so the program will not be completed until the following fiscal year. This is one example of the frustrations.
e (2:40 p.m.)
From a community such as Inuvik, we had an appeal to the Commissioner and to the minister regarding improvement of housing conditions, living conditions, and the opportunity to make the town an integrated one in every sense. The appeal was that the people who live in the west end of Inuvik should receive the same level of municipal services as those in the government area on the east side, and that a program be launched to ensure that young graduates returning from universities in the south and from technical schools would find adequate housing. Then, when they secured jobs, decided to marry and raise families, they would not have to go back into substandard housing.
We know that the government is working in this direction. For example, with CMHC assistance, a rental housing project will open in Inuvik next year. But once again, Mr. Speaker, this to me seems a start, but things are not moving as fast as they should. I appeal to the minister to impress upon his officers, and upon those responsible to them, not only to do the job for which they are paid but to realize they have a mission, a mission to bring the Canadian north in every respect into the mainstream of Canadian life. This mission must involve not only economic development but also involve the people who were there first, the Indian people, the Eskimo people, the Metis people. I appeal to the minister to look upon inquiries from associations like Thebacha in Fort Smith, an Indian organization whose objective is the provision of fair wages and employment for its people, with the same kind of urgency as he looks upon other requests from other areas.
As I have said, Mr. Speaker, much must be done. We have started to recognize what the north means to us as Canadians. I suggest that if anything will make us different from our neighbours to the south, if anything will give us a distinctive Canadian character, it is the fact that we are a northern nation, a people who inhabit the northern half of North America. That is something that can be the mainstay of our personality for years to come.


Erik Nielsen: Before the hon. member
resumes his seat, would he permit a question? I listened carefully but I did not hear him declare himself. Can he say whether he is in support of the resolution or not?
November 21, 1969


Robert John (Bud) Orange: If the hon. member had been listening at the beginning he would have heard my remarks. When I first read the resolution I thought we would be in for a rather bitter afternoon. This resolution says nothing. It is an attempt to grab headlines. It talks about "the pathological refusal of the government to end the colonial form of government" which exists in the Territories. The Carroth-ers Commission recommended certain alternative approaches. These have been accepted. The spirit, yes, maybe; the words, no.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, right at the outset I want to indicate that I agree with the hon. member for the Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange) that every time we discuss the subject of northern affairs and northern development the tenor of the debate reaches an unusually high level, and I want to thank the hon. member for the Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) whose motion has made this debate possible. The hon. member for Yukon has now been in this House for a period of some 12 years and I think it is quite reasonable to state that he has been one of the leading innovators and creative forces with respect to the on-going process of northern development in Canada.
With reference to my good friend, the hon. member for Northwest Territories, as I listened to him on the subject of the minister's recent statement in Yellowknife, the new capital of the Northwest Territories, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I was almost persuaded to send him a little note and tell him to come across the aisle to join us.
I am sure the reason he fits so well into the Conservative thesis on northern development is that he was trained under the vision of northern development when he was the administrator of the eastern Arctic back in those great years of development, and during the period that I had the pleasure of being associated with him as the responsible minister. I know interjections have been made on the other side when I said that, Mr. Speaker, but I often wonder what led the hon. member astray in more recent years.


An hon. Member:: Knowledge.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I can only come to the conclusion that it was due to the fact that earlier in his years he had fallen into bad company. As they say, as the twig is bent so is the tree inclined. I am sure the hon. member for Yukon would agree with me in this regard that we would welcome him with open arms 21362-71

Yukon and N.W.T. Government as he joins us in our crusade on behalf of northern development.
The only sour note in his presentation was his attack on the motion put forward by the hon. member for Yukon as being without any particular meaning and designed mainly for the purpose of headline seeking. I do not agree with the first part of the analysis, that it is without any significance, but I do agree with the last part of the hon. member's analysis. I think the more headlines we can get for the problems of northern Canada, the great Canadian frontier north of the sixtieth parallel, with its 3J million square miles of largely uninhabited and undeveloped territory, the better it will be for the out-reaching of Canadian nationhood in this country. The reason I say this is because there is always a tendency, as Prime Minister St. Laurent said so wisely in 1952, for Canadian governments to occupy this territory in a state of absentmindedness. This was the case in Canada except for one or two periods under the Borden administration, and the explorations of Stefansson, when the great period of Canadian occupation, particularly of the high Arctic, took place.
[DOT] (2:50 p.m.)
Other than that, until 1952 when the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was established under the St. Laurent administration, no government of Canada had attempted to come to grips with what was described by the succeeding Diefen-baker administration as "the last Canadian frontier" embraced by what was cynically described by opponents as the vision of northern development. I was in this House when the department was established and that was the beginning of my interest in northern affairs. I took part in the debates at the time and I admired the initiative of the St. Laurent government in this respect. That is why I became such a strong supporter and advocate of the programs initiated during the Conservative administration of 1957 to 1963.
Unfortunately, following the change of government in 1963, the negativism that had become part of the Liberal opposition attack on the programs of northern development was carried over into the new administration. I am not going to harp on the negative aspects now because we want this to be a positive debate. But it was indicated by the fact that out of sheer cussedness more than anything else, the Conservative initiative in
1110	COMMONS
Yukon and N.W.T. Government building the Pine Point Railway was unanimously opposed by the then Liberal opposition. We all know now that the Pine Point Railway has become that great transportation system which is the real catalyst in the tremendous upsurge that has taken place in the Great Slave Lake area of the Northwest Territories. This negative attitude was also involved in statements with respect to the roads resources program as being "roads from igloo to igloo". Unfortunately, the Liberal party was not able to bury that negativism when it assumed the responsibilities of office in 1963.
As has been demonstrated by the excellent speech of the member for the Yukon, and the statement by the member for the Northwest Territories, those of us who have had the privilege of travelling in the north know what has to be done. All we need now is to get on with the job. We do not need any more task forces or commissions to examine the problem; the problem has been examined to death. What we want at this stage of development in the north is government initiative with respect to the almost over-weening demand, the reasonable request and demand for greater autonomy and self-government in both the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories.
I am not going to take time to repeat the progress in this matter which has been cited by earlier speakers, but I do want to underscore that this is the essence of the need for development in the Northwest Territories at the present time. We have been following this subject in the House through questions for the last few days, ever since the minister made his two statements in the north. In reply to the supplementary question that I asked with respect to the resolution that had come out of the Yukon Territory-the resolution that was read in substantial part by the hon. member for the Yukon this afternoon- the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development-said:
Mr. Speaker, I went myself to the Yukon. I met the council members there and I invited them to dinner-
If I may interpolate, this seems to be a general gesture on the part of Liberal cabinet ministers. We had several invitations to dinner earlier today.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: What is wrong with it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The replies continues:
-when we parted they said that even though we sincerely disagree on some points, we could Still be very good friends and we parted amicably.

DEBATES	November 21, 1969
That is the end of the quotation, Mr. Speaker. It is what is known as the proverbial hospitality, only exceeded by western hospitality. Everybody is friendly.


An hon. Member:: What about the east?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am sure the east would compare very favourably, too, Mr. Speaker. Everybody in the north is overwhelmingly hospitable. No matter where you come from; good bad or indifferent, you are given a warm welcome to the northern territories. This just indicates that the minister does not really understand the essence of the problem and the desires and reasonable demands from the elected bodies in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory.
I think it is easy to understand why the demand is growing more vociferous at the present time. There has been a program of economic development for both territories, particularly since 1957, which has brought a substantial degree of growth and prosperity. This applies particularly in the Yukon Territory where schools, roads, airfields and all the infrastructure of national development have been proceeding over the past decade or so.
The hon. member who spoke for the Credi-tiste party referred to the desirability of getting Japanese capital to invest in the Yukon Territory. Well, Japanese capital is already there. Early in 1963 I made a trip to Japan. We also invited the Japanese Ambassador to the northern development conference in the Yukon Territory and, as a result of this interest, the New Imperial Mine has opened and the Anvil Mine is just getting under way in the Yukon. I am sure the hon. member for the Yukon would agree that these have been two of the most valuable infusions into the program of development in that territory. This development has already taken place.
I am not as intimately associated with these matters as I used to be, but I am impressed when I read articles by journalists who have travelled into the north. At one time the press used to be fairly negative on the prospects of the northern vision, but now they refer to the rush of tourists into the territories and the signs of development evident on all sides. I believe this is one of the reasons why the elected representatives of these territories have become so strong in their demands for greater autonomy at the present time.
Reference was made to Commissioner Gordon Cameron, who was appointed because he was truly representative of the people of the Yukon Territory. Gordon Cameron made
November 21, 1969

a great contribution to the progress of the Yukon during his tenure of office. Unfortunately, he refused to accept reappointment because he found it impossible to carry on with the reins of government some 3,000 miles away in Ottawa. I am paraphrasing, Mr. Speaker, rather than giving the direct quotation.
[DOT] (3:00 p.m.)
That is the essense of the problem, but I will not spend too much time underscoring what should be obvious to those who are closely associated with the problems of northern development. It becomes harder to accept because during the period when there was great development in the territories they were promised that by centennial year, 1967, both territories would be afforded a considerable degree of autonomy and responsible government.
With regard to my own province of Manitoba, I recall reading in the discussions that led to Manitoba entering confederation- Manitoba being what we consider the keystone province in confederation-the arguments used by the federal government of the day. They were similar to those now being used, namely, that the financial and population resources of the area were not sufficient to warrant a move away from colonialism and toward greater independence. I remind the minister that when Manitoba entered confederation in 1870, only 25,000 people lived in the province.


Erik Nielsen: It contained 1,051 voting
people.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It contained only 1,051 voting people, as the hon. member from the Yukon says. We failed to grasp the argument to which I have alluded. It was alleged that even if Canada were to be united from sea to sea, the provinces were barren, fruitless, subject to the chill blasts of the Arctic winter and would never be any use for economic purposes. The matter was summed-up in the famous quotation of the Macdonald era. When the Macdonald government decided to extend the Canadian Pacific Railway from sea to sea the liberal opposition said that the railway would not earn enough to even pay for its axle-grease; that it would be a railway running from wigwam to wigwam. This reminds one of the latterday Liberal "igloo to igloo" statement. I do not raise this matter of Manitoba because of personal or provincial pride; I raise it because a minister from Manitoba in this cabinet has in a speech put the situation 21362-7U
Yukon and N.W.T. Government much more effectively than I could. He was speaking to the Provincial Liberal Association of Manitoba last week end. I quote from the Winnipeg Tribune of November 17, 1969:
Federal Supply Minister Jim Richardson has made it clear western Canadians-
All one needs to do is substitute "north" for "west" and "northern Canadian" for "western Canadian", and the article will have equal application. I continue reading from the quotation:
-will not tolerate decision-making in Ottawa which denies the west-*
Again, substitute "north".
-an equal partnership within Confederation.
In a strong speech to delegates attending the annual meeting of the Manitoba Liberal Party Sunday, Mr. Richardson warned that growth of eastern Canada at the expense of the western region must be brought to an end.
"The greatest single change required is that western Canadians-
Again, substitute "northern Canadians".
-must have more say, more control and more influence over this great western region-
Substitute "northern region".
-which they toil to build," the minister said.
It is an excellent statement. I shall invite the minister to come over to this side of the House with the parliamentary secretary.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: But we shall have no party left.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I continue quoting:
"We should not forget that westerners"-
Again, please substitute "northerners".
-did not participate in the Confederation debates in the 1880s which resulted in the structures which have guided Canada through her first century." Mr. Richardson reminded.
"We cannot afford to be absent and we don't intend to be absent from the decision-making process which is now charting Canada's course into her second century."
The article goes on at length. The minister spoke to the Liberal Party as I would speak to the Liberal Party-kindly. I continue quoting:
"I want to see the Liberal Party become the champion of the west,"-
Make that "north".
-just as it has become the champion of Frenchspeaking Canadians," he said.
"It is only in this way, by endorsing policies that are meaningful for the west"-
1112	COMMONS
Yukon and N.W.T. Government
Please substitute "north".
-"and which bring meaningful change for the west, that the Liberal Party can truly become the party of national unity"-


Erik Nielsen: Let's opt in.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, let us opt into confederation. That expresses a viewpoint which must be clear-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but I must remind him and the House that his time has expired, unless he has the unanimous consent of the House to continue.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and hon. members. I will not trespass at length on the generosity of the House. I wish to make a brief reference to the Northwest Territories because its need, as the hon. member has indicated, is at least as great as the need of the Yukon. It has farther to go, Mr. Speaker.
I underline this point, make this suggestion to the minister and hope he will accept it: next year, along with Manitoba-the keystone province which was carved out of the Northwest Territories in 1870-the Northwest Territories will be celebrating their centennial. I do not think you can give them a better birthday present than listening to the good advice of those hon. members who have spoken this afternoon.
The hon. member for Northwest Territories took issue with the hon. member for Yukon in denying that the shift that has taken place is merely one of bureaucratic exercise from Ottawa to the capital of the Territories, Yellowknife. I think the problem as outlined by the hon. member for Yukon was accurate. Once again he is supported by a statement made after the very heated and critical response to the statement the minister made in the Yukon. An article in the Globe and Mail of Thursday, November 13, 1969, reads as follows:
At the council meeting after Mr. Chretien's announcement, Norman Chamberlist, the leading Liberal on the council, put blame more on the Ottawa civil service than on the minister. "The civil service of Canada wishes to maintain the empire it has built up in the northern areas. The colonial status it has had for 100 years is being maintained."
I believe that touches on the precise point the hon. member for Yukon was trying to make today. I think it is quite valid, notwithstanding the criticism the hon. member for Northwest Territories levelled at that point.

DEBATES	November 21, 1969
The northern Canadian vision has now become a reality as a result of the development that has taken place. The Pine Point railway line has brought about a tremendous upsurge of development in the lower Arctic areas. The prospecting for oil in the high Arctic has focussed attention on this unexplored and largely unknown area of Canada as never before. We have had almost continuous discussions about the Manhattan and Canadian sovereignty in the north to conclude that great venture. I should like to conclude my remarks by referring to something that appeared in that great "Canadian" magazine, Time.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Harold Edward Winch: Did the hon. member say "Canadian"?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, in quotation marks. It appeared after the Prime Minister's visit to Yellowknife. On page 14 of the August 16, 1968, edition of Time, "Canadian" edition, we find this interesting quotation:
Scout Jamboree at Yellowknife. 550 Boy Scouts from Alaska and all parts of Canada-
[DOT] (3:10 p.m.)
That was very interesting to read because the Scout movement got under way, as I think the hon. member for the Northwest Territories will recall, largely on the initiative of Air Force personnel stationed in the north. It grew rapidly, particularly among the native people, because it attracted their imagination immediately. Here is the punch-line of the quotation: "Few were unmoved by Trudeau's northern vision". Where there is no vision, the people perish. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) has really captured the vision of northern development in the reasonable terms that have been placed before us this afternoon. If he has captured it, I hope he will communicate it to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. If he has not captured it and if that is a euphemistic statement on the part of Time magazine, I trust the minister will in turn communicate it to the Prime Minister and his colleagues in the cabinet.
Let us get away from negativism. Let us accentuate the positive. We have here a golden opportunity to move forward to greater autonomy, independence and responsibility. I would much rather trust the elected representatives of the Yukon and Northwest Territories in terms of quality, zeal and capacity than some of the members of this House. These elected representatives are a pioneering
November 21, 1969	COMMONS
breed and I think the time has come to listen to their reasonable requests.


Mr. Russell C. Honey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: In the time I have available, Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to bring the debate back to the basis of the resolution in the name of the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Stanfield). I intend to confine my remarks essentially to the Yukon and in particular to the speech this morning by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen). I do so with the knowledge that my colleague the hon. member for Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange) has, as always, very capably defined and dealt with the problems and concerns of the people in his riding.
The remarks this morning by the hon. member for Yukon were essentially based on the resolution passed by the Yukon Council. I also have a copy of the resolution to which he referred. It seemed that his was the argument of a skilled advocate and I give my hon. friend full marks in that regard. He realized that in his opening remarks he overstated his case and did the best he could to produce some facts to back up his case. The facts were not necessarily those which he stated in his opening remarks. I suggest he was really trying to readjust the facts to fit the evidence before us today.
There has been legitimate concern in the north about the movement toward the area of self-government. There has been concern there over the announcement made by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) when he was in the Yukon last week. There was concern over the steps the minister indicated as government policy in his speech to the council; they did not go as far as the members of the Territorial Councils and some residents of the north would like to see. I think there is the concern that my hon. friend expressed in his remarks this morning, namely, that the position taken by the Northwest Territorial Council in its resolution really went much further than it could reasonably and rationally expect a responsible government to go.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, will the hon. member permit a question? He must have heard me read the resolution of the Yukon Liberal Association. Can the Yukon Liberal Association expect the support of the hon. member and his party?


Russell Clayton Honey: Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of the resolution. I take it to be a valid resolution of a political association, in this case
DEBATES	1113
Yukon and N.W.T. Government Liberal. My hon. friend based his argument essentially on the resolution of a duly elected body, the Yukon Territorial Council. That is what I want to deal with now. The hon. member for Yukon said-I think I can quote his remarks almost verbatim-that the members of the Yukon Council do not desire provincial status and in no way can their recommendations be construed as being a request for provincial status. Those were the remarks of the hon. member for Yukon this morning when he dealt with the resolution of the Northwest Territorial Council.
I wish to look at that resolution now because I think I can probably interpret it as well as the hon. member. I make the submission to Your Honour and hon. members of the House that the resolution is in fact a request for provincial status.


Erik Nielsen: No.


Russell Clayton Honey: The hon. member says "No". I think I am entitled to make an interpretation of the resolution. I am prepared to read the words. My hon. friend read some of them.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please.


Russell Clayton Honey: Mr. Speaker, I have the floor. The hon. member dealt with the resolution. If he will permit me to deal with it, the hon. members can form their own opinion. I quote from the resolution:
A)	The Council of the Yukon Territory to be known as the Yukon Legislative Assembly.
Is there any difference, Mr. Speaker, between a Yukon Legislative Assembly and the Saskatchewan Legislative Assembly or the Nova Scotia Legislative Assembly?
B)	The number of members of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be increased to 15 and the term of the Assembly to be increased to four years.
That certainly is not inconsistent with provincial status. In particular, the suggestion of a four-year term indicates an attempt to bring it in line with other legislative assemblies.
(C)	The Advisory Committee on Finance to be replaced by an Executive Council of not less than five members-
I want to underline this:
-with full executive powers in the following classes of subjects (i) Education, Health & Welfare-*
I am sorry the hon. member for Yukon has had to leave temporarily. He will know the percentage of cost that these items represent.
COMMONS DEBATES	November 21, 19G9
Yukon and N.W.T. Government I think we are probably talking there about 70 per cent of the budget of the Territorial Council. They also want full executive powers. The resolution reads in part:
(ii) Territorial Resources Including Land (iii) Public Works (iv) Justice and Corrections (v) Revenue and Finance (vi) Forestry (vii) Fishery (viii) All residual Executive and Administrative functions including Industry and Labour controlled or performed by the Federal Government, and the Legislative Assembly to have exclusive legislative jurisdiction to make laws for the Government of the Territory in relation to the above classes of subjects, in addition to the legislative powers existing under Section 16 of the Yukon Act

This section sets out the powers that they have.
(D)	The number of Members of the Yukon Legislative Assembly determine it appropriate that all necessary legislative and other changes are to be effected to constitute the Province of Yukon with the same legislative-
There was an interjection there in the minutes from which I am reading. I may be mistaken, but when the member for Yukon was reading this resolution he did not read the areas with regard to the province of Yukon, the legislative assembly of the province of Yukon, and so on. I take it further because I think it is important to put before the House and on the record exactly what is being requested by the Yukon Territorial Council for which the member for Yukon this morning acted as an advocate. I continue:
(D)	The number of Members of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be further increased at such time as the Yukon Legislative Assembly determines it appropriate that all necessary legislative and other changes are to be effected to constitute the Province of Yukon with the same legislative and executive powers as those which exist in the provinces of Canada.
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
That clause asks for authority to determine when the province of Yukon will be fully constituted with all the legislative and executive powers that are possessed by other provinces of Canada. 1 do not know of better terminology with which to frame a request for full legislative and executive powers than to place the Yukon in the same position as the other provinces of Canada.
(E)	The Members to be given all necessary authority analogous to that in Provincial Legislative Assemblies to establish their indemnities and allowances and to have all the requisite powers to establish or participate in pension plan or group health plan.
(F)	Section 24 of the Yukon Act to be repealed.
As the hon. member said this morning, this clause would repeal the prohibition against -elected members introducing money bills in

the Territorial Council-I should not say "legislature".


Erik Nielsen: Is that bad?


Russell Clayton Honey: My hon. friend asks whether that is bad, and it is bad in this sense: this morning my hon. friend did not use the term "legislature" or the expression "province of Yukon", though they are in fact used throughout the resolution. So I think it is important-


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member will have to accept my word that I was reading verbatim the same resolution to which he is referring. I was not paraphrasing; I was reading the same material.


Russell Clayton Honey: I accept my hon. friend's word. I do not know whether he read it in its entirety.


Erik Nielsen: I did.


Russell Clayton Honey: Very well; then I accept my hon. friend's word. Clause (G) provides:
The status of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to be enlarged so that it shall have full capacity to attend all interprovincial and federal-provincial conferences and to participate in resulting discussions and agreements.
I do not think I have to enlarge on that; it is self-explanatory.
(H)	The Land Titles Act to be repealed in respect of the Yukon Territory and replaced by a Land Titles Ordinance.
The next is the last clause I shall read. I think it probably exhibits as well as any the difference in interpretation that the hon. member and I place on the resolution. It provides:
(I)	All Crown Land to be held in the name of the Crown in right of the Territory.
It seems to me that that is a pretty basic step in the constitution of a province. Again I hope I am not misquoting the hon. member for Yukon, but when he dealt with this clause earlier in the debate, according to the note I made of his remarks he said, "What members of the Yukon Council desire is not provincial status. In no way can its recommendations be construed as being a request for provincial status". I think that is the position my hon. friend is taking. I take the position that it is in fact a request for provincial status.


Erik Nielsen: Again on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has just misquoted me once more. I also said at the
November 21, 1969	COMMONS DEBATES
same time that the members of the council themselves, as individuals, had unanimously stated that they did not want provincial status at this time.


Russell Clayton Honey: Then could I ask my hon. friend whether that decision was taken unanimously subsequent to this resolution?


Erik Nielsen: No; it was their position prior to and subsequent to the resolution, and at the time the minister was there.


Russell Clayton Honey: As I have already said, the hon. member is a very skilled advocate and he is arguing a case that was overstated by the Territorial Council. I think he said this morning that he had authority to argue it, and I think he did a good job. But at the same time he is arguing a situation that was overstated, and he is now bringing it back-I am pleased he is doing this-to a more reasonable and rational position.
The hon. member's case this morning was not far removed from the position of the government as stated last week by the minister when he visited Whitehorse. For the balance of the time remaining to me I would first of all reiterate and place on the record the position of the government as enunciated by the minister. I have put on the record the position of the Territorial Council. I repeat that I think my hon. friend in his speech this morning moved substantially from that position. I am very pleased he did. I now want to compare the position that he took this morning with the position of the government as enunciated by the minister.
I refer at this point to the speech of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development before the Yukon Territorial Concil on November 12. The minister first dealt with the matter of constitutional development and had this to say:
It is becoming apparent to me that in considering constitutional development in the north we must keep two major objectives in mind. The first objective is to protect and further the legitimate interests of the Canadian people in developments in the north-in its economic development and particularly resource development and the potentially immense wealth that may result from this; in the economic and social condition of all residents of the north, as fellow Canadians, and particularly the indigenous peoples; in the development and maintenance of transportation, communication and all of the many social institutions that together form the necessary base for economic development and for further advances in social development; in that continued sovereignty over the Canadian north-on the continent and beyond it-that has been established by our presence and administration there; and in the role of the north in Canadian continental defence.
Yukon and N.W.T. Government
The second objective, closely linked to the first, is to accommodate the desire of many in the north for a greater measure of self-government, and to do this within Canadian democratic traditions, institutions and values.


Erik Nielsen: That should have been the first, not the second.


Russell Clayton Honey: Perhaps it makes a difference, but in any event I want to put it on the record. This is the position of the government, and as I say, I do not think it is too much different from the position argued by the hon. member this morning. The minister then went on to ask for support, co-operation and consultation, having spoken of the measures of success that had been attained by the people of the Yukon, the civil service of the Territory and administration in the Yukon. The minister stated that these were matters that certainly weighed in favour of the argument for greater autonomy for the Territory.


Erik Nielsen: Would the hon. member
permit a question?


Russell Clayton Honey: Yes.


Erik Nielsen: If they had not been successful, surely the minister would have fired them. Thank goodness he does have confidence in these people.


Russell Clayton Honey: As I have said, these were the things that impressed the minister in the movement for more autonomy in the Yukon. Having referred to these things, he went on to say:
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
Yet despite this real measure of success there are clearly limits to the extent to which full responsible government can be vested in the people of the Yukon at this time. With the government of Canada you recognize, I am certain, that in a territory as large as the four Maritime provinces combined, of a physical rigour and hardship that poses a special challenge to government, and with a resident population of still fewer than 18,000 you cannot hope to provide from local revenues alone a level of public services that will maintain the social, economic and cultural development of all territorial residents at a level commensurate with the normal expectation of Canadian people generally. The heavy dependence on federal subsidies and on outside capital for resource development, and the uncertain revenue anticipated in return, moreover, places the responsibility for economic development beyond the competence of the people of the Yukon, working alone. For the current fiscal year, the total expenditures by the federal government and the government of the Yukon Territory on provincial-type programs will be in the order of $32 million. This compares with Territorial and other provincial-type revenues, including resource revenues of $12 million.
November 21. 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government
Having defined some of the difficulties in moving as quickly as some of the people in the Yukon would like the government to move, the minister did take some steps to ward closing the gap between what the government hopes reasonably and logically will be an orderly and progressive development and the goals that the people of the Yukon have in mind as delineated by the hon. member this morning. The minister made some announcements of government policy which will eventually find its way into legislation. I know hon. members are aware of these announcements but perhaps 1 should put them on the record of Hansard. He said that legislation would be adopted to set up an executive committee. Perhaps the hon. member is not satisfied with the type of executive committee envisaged. His reason for dissatisfaction may be that it should have more, or less power. In any event, this is a move to transfer executive power.


Erik Nielsen: They are still civil servants.


Russell Clayton Honey: The minister then said, and I think this is important:
I am hopeful that we can develop still more effective ways to extend local responsibility over matters which will affect the quality of life in the Yukon, to cover executive as well as the existing legislative powers. I will be seeking your support and co-operation-
This is the way we do things in this country, by co-operation and consultation. He then said:
I will be seeking your support and co-operation, therefore, in considering what additional changes can be made to give you greater territorial responsibility in the light of the experience gained from this first important step.
He did not close the door or bar the gate in respect of considering what additional changes might be made to give greater territorial responsibility in light of experience gained from this first step. The minister mentioned several other matters which would be included in the legislation, particularly the lowering of the voting age for territorial elections and the extension of the life of the Territorial Council-


Erik Nielsen: Should we not be entitled to pass that sort of thing ourselves?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. The parliamentary secretary has the floor. Unfortunately, his time has now expired. Perhaps we could ascertain whether there is unanimous consent to allowing him to continue.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Russell Clayton Honey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. member has a question, perhaps I should accept it now and then try to be brief.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, I should just like to ask the hon. member whether we should not be allowed, through our elected representatives in the Yukon, to set the voting age of those people who vote and elect the representatives forming the council.


Russell Clayton Honey: That is a matter of personal opinion. I heard the remarks of the hon. member for Northwest Territories that he would make representations to the government, as I am sure the hon. member for Yukon will. The minister is not fixing the voting age, or anything definite; he has indicated an intention to do these things. Let me finish very quickly by putting these matters on the record. He said that it was intended-
-to extend the life of the Territorial Council to four years instead of the present three years; to permit the Council to set the indemnity of its members and to reduce the period of federal disallowance of territorial ordinances from two years to one year.
Then the minister in his closing remarks asked for co-operation and consultation. I will not take the time to read the whole of his remarks, but they were very much in line with the closing remarks of the hon. member for Yukon this morning. I want to refer to what the hon. member for Yukon said about the spirit in which we should approach this problem of constitutional involvement. This was his final plea for a gradual evolution of decision-making control from the bureaucrats to the elected council members. He then referred to the council members as being responsible, intelligent individuals who have the responsibility to make decisions. I agree with that, but from my observations it is not much different from what the minister said. We have from the minister a request for cooperation and consultation, and we have essentially the same thing from the hon. member for Yukon.
In closing let me say I am pleased the hon. member has moved drastically from the exact words of the resolution. Let me close on this theme. The previous Prime Minister and leader of my party referred to a particular party as "Liberals in a hurry". I think my hon. friend and the people he represents are moving in a bit of a hurry in their quest for self-government. I think the federal government has to take a balanced, rational, responsible position. I hope, and am sure, this will
November 21, 1969

work toward a meeting of minds on the matter.


William Gordon Ritchie: Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to speak in support of the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) on behalf of those thousands of Canadians who appear to have been relegated to second-class citizenship by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) and his department. The thing that interests me most about the government's attitude to the Territory and people of the Yukon is that it reflects exactly the indulgent and patronizing stance that has for years characterized the permanent officials of the department.
Apparently the frontier of the just society lies along the line 60 degrees latitude. The people of the Yukon will have to be content with whatever benefits slop over from the south. I see that the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) has now been forced to intervene between the minister and his northern wards; the Prime Minister has graciously made it known that he will give audience to his Yukon subjects if they will journey to Ottawa and wait upon him.
The whole performance of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Northern Affairs and the officials of his department is incredible in this day and age. The recent appearance of the minister in the Yukon and Northwest Territories hardly fits this era of Canadian national development. His speeches up there and his reaction to the very reasonable proposals of the people of the Yukon indicate that he is a mere puppet of his permanent officials. He has apparently been so thoroughly brainwashed by the bureaucrats that he now reflects perfectly the status quo that pervades his department's offices in Ottawa.
After all, what tremendous concessions were the people of the Yukon seeking? According to the resolution unanimously adopted by the council last January, all that was sought was an increased measure of autonomy, a little touch of representative and responsible government and some say in how the taxes paid in the Yukon might be applied to Yukon problems. This resolution was forwarded to Ottawa. They received no answer until the minister's arrogant and inept performance of November 12. Is democracy no longer a desirable thing? Is individual freedom and responsibility foreign to the new order of the so-called just society?
The council of the Yukon-at least its token group of elected members-asked for
Yukon and N.W.T. Government an increase of membership from 7 to 15, and that the council be re-named the Yukon Legislative Assembly.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
They wanted the present Advisory Committee on Finance to be changed to a five-man executive council with full executive powers in the fields of education, health and welfare, natural resources including land, public works, justice and correction, revenue and finance, forestry, fisheries, industry and labour. They wanted all Crown lands to be held for the Crown in the right of the Yukon Territory. They also asked that the Yukon be allowed to play a full part in interprovincial and federal-provincial conferences and discussions, and be permitted to determine when the Yukon should be granted full provincial status.
In this day and age, and in light of the development and tremendous potential of the Yukon, I can see nothing but good sense and sound reason in this proposal. But the reaction of the minister and his department was arrogant, insulting and stupid. It was arrogant because it displayed narrow preconception and stubborn inflexibility. It was insulting because it was delivered almost ten months late.


Erik Nielsen: It was a year and ten months late.


William Gordon Ritchie: I stand corrected. It was patronizing in its terms and derogatory in its inference that Yukon residents were incapable of adult responsibility. It was stupid because it created trouble where trouble should have been, and could have been, avoided. Now the Prime Minister has been forced to jump in and try to bail his fumbling minister out of the sinking departmental boat.
The minister, without any attempt at serious discussion, took his packet of carefully prepared speeches to the Territories and spread out his trade goods to catch the eye of the natives. Those trade goods were cheap and shoddy. They consisted of an offer to let the members of the Yukon Council serve one additional year, four years instead of three; to set their own indemnities and allowances and-this was a great concession to democracy-to allow one of their number to sit on a committee with the three permanent officials of government charged with running the territory. In a particularly matter-of-fact manner the minister turned down any thought of a move toward self-government "for the foreseeable future".
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government
To add insult to a shaky knowledge of history, the minister said the Yukon could not aspire to provincial status for years because the territory "did not pay its way". This is a strange argument coming from the member of a government which recently approved a $500 million plan to salvage the province of Prince Edward Island. Does Prince Edward Island pay its way? Does Newfoundland pay its way? For that matter, does Quebec pay its way? The minister claimed the Yukon cost $32 annually per capita but returns only $12. He neglected to say, however, that the principal taxpayers of the territory, the mining and exploration companies, pay taxes outside the Yukon. There is sound reason to believe that if the taxes and revenue from such things as oil and gas leases were devoted directly to Yukon needs, the territory could carry itself.
Speaking of his proposal that one elected member of the Yukon council be allowed to sit with the Territorial Commissioner and his two assistants on the proposed executive committee, the minister suggested that future extension of responsibility would depend upon the experience of the operation of this committee. One Yukon resident, with some justification, termed this veiled blackmail. Future extension of responsibility for their own affairs and toward full self-government would be tied to the performance and good behaviour of the tame committee member forced to work in harness with three permanent officials.
The Carruthers report of a few years ago made recommendations for increased territorial independence and the growth of selfgovernment. Commenting on this report in its November 13 issue, the Globe and Mail observed of the minister's answer:
That answer is a poor compromise that offers very little change from the status quo.
The people of the Yukon asked Ottawa for blood and they were given a stone. The only power the council now has is to reject the annual budget. This is a considerable weapon and has been used time and time again throughout Canada's history. For years prior to the troubles of 1837 the Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada refused to vote the Civil List until given some say in the disposal of taxes so raised. This use of popular approval of the proposed expenditure of public moneys is a familiar tactic in the story of colonial development, particularly in North America. It has proved to be a potent weapon in the past and could be again.

I would suggest that the Prime Minister has been wise in superseding his minister in the matter of relations between Ottawa and the Yukon. I think he would be wiser were he to appoint a new minister and transfer the present incumbent to a less sensitive portfolio. Whatever virtues the minister may have brought to his office, they have obviously been swamped by Ottawa officialdom. This is all the more tragic because the minister is of a province and generation which claims to abhor colonialism above all else. Yet, to judge from the most recent "Thoughts of Chairman Chretien", he would have been perfectly at home in the British Colonial Office of the late 19 th century.
It is time for a realistic appraisal of the future of the Yukon and the aspiration of that territory's citizens to full Canadian Citizenship. Now that he has personally taken over the problem, let us hope that the chief architect of the just society finds himself able to add another roof to the national structure in order to accommodate the people north of 60 degrees latitude. In this respect I heartily endorse the remarks of the hon. member for Yukon.


John Stratford Burton: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very useful that we have had an opportunity to debate the subject of northern affairs in this House today. I believe the matter of northern development, northern government and the future of the north is one which concerns all Canadians. After all, Canada is a northern nation. Much of our future lies in the north. While we can take pride in some of our accomplishments to date, we can very easily see that much more remains to be done. In particular we can see that much remains to be done when we compare some of our accomplishments with those of other northern nations. I hope the minister will take part in this debate shortly. I believe I am the eighth speaker in the debate and as yet we have not had an enunciation of the minister's views on the subject of the debate.


J. Michael Forrestall: He was about to get up to
speak and you would not let him.


John Stratford Burton: I am sorry; I did not notice that he was about to get to his feet. As Canadians we feel free to condemn nations in other parts of the world for carrying on the practices of colonial administration. We often feel free to do a little tongue-clucking because of minority groups in other countries which do not have equal opportunities and equal rights. We have situations and problems
November 21, 1969	COMMONS DEBATES
right here in Canada, some of which are embodied within the jurisdiction of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. These problems require great understanding and sensitivity if we are to reach adequate solutions.
The fact is that in many ways we do have a colonial-type administration in these areas. We find that very often the practice of the government has been to reluctantly grant concessions to representations from the north. These concessions often are made as a result of certain pressures. They are tossed out, I might say, as crumbs to appease the restless population. Possibly that is too strong a term; it might be better to say they are tossed out in a fashion which is somewhat less than generous. Unfortunately, the minister, who often I believe tries his best to do a good job and tries to wrestle with the problems he faces, seems to have a tendency to speak in the same vein as an old-time colonial governor.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)
I think that if one looks at the speeches he made in Yellowknife and Whitehorse recently, one will see a number of illustrations of this tendency. These may be small examples; nevertheless, I think they reflect a somewhat unfortunate attitude and approach to northern problems which I think is bound to give rise to a certain amount of resentment and hostility among the people in that part of Canada.
When I look at the minister's remarks at Yellowknife, for instance, I see he states that the government has two major objectives regarding the north. He goes on to describe some of his thoughts in terms of what the government envisages as being good for the north, and what it has decided. He goes on to state, in dealing with such things as the management and ownership of natural resources in the future:
-and this conclusion I support strongly both for the present and the preseeable future-
I will have something to say about that remark later. When one turns to page 3 of his address to the Territorial Council, one notes that the minister put forward a number of points every one of which starts with the pronoun "I". There is a continual repetition of the pronoun "I". Again I suggest that this is a reflection of an attitude which needs to be changed.


Erik Nielsen: L'etat c'est moi.
Yukon and N.W.T. Government


John Stratford Burton: On page 4 of the minister's speech which was distributed to members, he takes note of other recommendations that were made and says:
The Commissioner and I have considered this recommendation.
How much more patronizing can one get? No one questions the existence of formidable and serious problems in the north involving the administration of the government and the development of adequate policies. There are a great many difficulties in this regard. We also have a great many problems involving the peoples of the north because of the great diversity of cultures, skills, education and understanding.
We also have economic problems to consider in the north. In many cases the costs of economic activity are higher there than they are in other regions of Canada and other parts of the world. Transportation costs in taking products to market and bringing in supplies, materials and services, also add greatly to the cost structure. In addition, the physical environment of the north itself poses a formidable problem in developing a public policy, for so many aspects of life exist on a frail and precarious basis. All together these create problems which are of concern to all of us and which we must take into account. The question is how to approach the matter.
I have already pointed out the minister's patronizing, condescending or concessionary approach to northern problems and to the representations and aspirations of the northern people. I suggest that a positive approach is required, one that includes flexibility because, after all, future events, particularly in the north, are very often unpredictable and therefore flexibility is required. But it seems to me that we need to develop a positive approach which sets out to achieve certain fundamental objectives, not in a haphazard, come-as-it-may or some far-off-distant-horizon type of objective but rather an approach which requires a planned and scheduled operation. This involves the determination of objectives and of steps required to reach those objectives, and a determination of programs which need to be carried out to enable the north to take the steps necessary to reach these objectives. We also need to set out a scheduled program which takes into account both time and functional developments.
The Carrothers Commission, to which reference has already been made today, set out some of the immediate objectives for government in the north. My colleague, the hon.
1120	COMMONS
Yukon and N.W.T. Government member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Orlikow), in an excellent speech made reference to some of the critical objectives set out in the Car-rothers report. He noted a rejection of the concept of the division of the Northwest Territories to more political units. We go along with the minister's decision in that regard. He noted a number of decisions involving government and the development of an executive branch of government in the northern legislative structure as it has developed to date and should develop in the future. Furthermore, he noted some economic programs which must involve northern people themselves and which also involve increased funds. The need for educational programs is, of course, fundamental and the need to develop local governments to carry on community development programs is also essential.
It seems to me that our efforts must go beyond these objectives to consider other facets of life in the north. The hon. member for Winnipeg North made a brief reference to some of these factors when he noted, for instance, that the nature of white culture allows the white man in the north to prosper in the free enterprise system as we know it in that part of the country. This is something to which we must give attention.
We must also take note of the cultural traditions and background of the native people who live in the north. We must take special steps to emphasize the encouragement of local self-government in both the short run and the long run. Furthermore, we must give a great deal of encouragement to co-operative and collective enterprise in the north because the people of the north have a very unique opportunity to avoid the waste, exploitation, pollution and some of the other problems which have beset the more industrialized areas of Canada and other parts of the world.
I should like to deal for a second with some of the problems of economic development and resource management as they affect northern Canada. Reference has been made to the transfer of resources to the administration, and control of governments in the north.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question? It is for clarification. Members of the council have made it clear-as I thought I did today in the debate-that all they are asking for is the transfer of territorial resources, not national or natural resources.


John Stratford Burton: I thank the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) for again noting this. I was about to note that we were very pleased 
DEBATES	November 21, 1969
that he had clarified some aspects of resource management and the interpretation to be placed on the resolution passed by the Yukon Territorial Council. I note-and this is in part what gave cause to my reference to this matter-that the minister said in his speech in Yellowknife:
-if we accept the conclusion of the Carrothers Commission, that at the moment the ownership and management of natural resources in the Territories must remain with the Federal Government-and this conclusion I support strongly both for the present and the preseeable future.
I presume that was meant to read "foreseeable" future. I would like to draw attention to the Carrothers Commission report, where at page 18 of the summary of its report, talking about the ownership of natural resources, it noted:
e (4:00 p.m.)
In our judgment it would be premature to make the transfer at this time.
I suggest that the implication of this statement is that at some foreseeable time in the future resources would be transferred to northern jurisdiction. I was particularly interested in this matter because I come from a portion of the prairie provinces which at one time was under the jurisdiction of the Northwest Territories. When the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta were created the federal government retained control over resources and resource management. This situation existed from 1905 until 1930 when jurisdiction was transferred to the provinces under an agreement which also involved a financial settlement. It seems to me this is the type of thing we need to keep in mind when considering the future of the north. But I want to make it clear that in terms of major resources, in terms of mineral resources, we need to maintain federal jurisdiction until northern governments are able to cope with the situation.
In the area of economic development I think the focus of economic development programs must be on the needs of people. I take note of the minister's statement in Yellowknife, where he said as appears on page 2 of the distributed text that as a federal government we have two major objectives regarding the north. I quote his words:
The first objective is to protect and further the legitimate interests of the Canadian people in developments in the north-
Then he goes on to elaborate on his statement. While he does give recognition to the needs of people in some of the later statements made in that paragraph, at the same
November 21, 1969

time the whole approach needs some refocussing because it seems to me the principal focus must be centred on people and their needs. In addition, we must give considerable attention to problems involving the physical environment. Pollution problems have been debated at length in this House over the past year and a half. I might just note, Mr. Speaker, that I was much surprised when I was with the Indian Affairs and Northern Development Committee of the House last January and we stopped at Norman Wells and saw the Imperial Oil refinery operation there. A pall of black smoke drifted lazily down the Mackenzie River valley as far as the eye could see to the north-a thick, black pall of smoke. In all fairness I should say that the manager indicated that steps were being taken to reduce the smoke and consequent pollution that was belching out from this refinery. Nevertheless, here in the far distant north we had a first-hand example of the problems of pollution. You could see the effect on growth in the surrounding area.
Reference has already been made in this debate to the role of private enterprise and the approach that should be taken in carrying on economic development in the north. Of course, some of our friends pay a great deal of tribute to the merits of private enterprise, of so-called free enterprise, in developing the north. I would suggest that this simply cannot be applied in the north under the conditions that exist. I would suggest this is the case, because first of all this system and approach tends to deny the public good and public needs in favour of private ones.
Secondly, the controlling assumptions of private enterprise do not hold true in the north. We know markets are monopolistic; they are not competitive. This situation will likely remain for a long time. Most shareholders of large developments in the north are not residents of the territories, and thus they have no motives other than their own personal or corporate gain. Large sections of the population in the north have no dollar power with which to influence the direction of development in that part of Canada. Third, I would suggest that the co-operative and collective approach is more appropriate to the traditional cultures of the Indian and Eskimo peoples of the north. I know some work has been done in this regard in the north, but I think this work needs to be intensified.
There are two basic types of economic development that are likely to take place in the north. The first is the community-oriented development which involves community
Yukon and N.W.T. Government efforts to improve the lot of people, to improve their living conditions and enable them to live a better life, and the second is the large mining development, of which we already have some examples and of which we are likely to see more in the future.
I would suggest there are some considerable problems to deal with in that regard. First I suggest that the position and strength of territorial governments at the present time are such that they would have great difficulty in carrying on negotiations with very large mining corporations or syndicates. They may lay down laws and regulations under which such corporations might carry on their activities, but there might be a considerable problem in enforcing regulations on such matters as pollution, an example of which I gave a couple of minutes ago.
I was pleased to note that the minister drew attention to employment problems in the mining industry. He dealt with these in his address to the Yellowknife Chamber of Commerce, and I was pleased he took this matter up very frankly with the mining industry. But I suggest we need something more than just a peanut approach, or a Walter Gordon type of approach to this problem.
It is not good enough simply to suggest, "You need to have a few native people on your work force. You need to train a few of these people. If you do bring a few of these people into your work force, then you are very good fellows; you are making a positive contribution to the problem." But this is not adequate. This is not good enough for the needs that exist, and in the north we have a few powerful corporations already operating and which in some respects I suggest are very much a law unto themselves. A certain amount of oil development is taking place in the north. Private companies are working there. We have examples of where they are doing their best to resist government efforts to ensure that oil pollution does not become a real hazard. There is an example of this just across the Yukon border in Alaska.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Does the House give unanimous consent for the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
1122	COMMONS
Yukon and N.W.T. Government


John Stratford Burton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I assure you that I will conclude my remarks in a few minutes. In Alaska at the present time oil companies are preparing to build an oil pipeline across the Alaskan mountain ranges to the Pacific Ocean. They are already shipping in pipe to build the pipeline, but according to the latest information which I received the United States government has not yet given approval for the construction of the pipeline because some of the oil companies had not agreed to some of the conditions that had been set out by the U.S. government, or that it was attempting to set out. Thus I suggest great care is needed to ensure that the legitimate aspirations of the northern people are recognized. Nevertheless, we must build for the future, taking into account the concerns and the needs of all people in the north and not just of those people who possess a degree of economic power.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)
One point I wanted to deal with very briefly, Mr. Speaker, was the source of revenues. It has been noted, for instance, that in the Yukon only a little over one-third of the revenues required for government come from local sources and the rest is financed basically by the federal government. It is also noted that the figure for the Northwest Territories is about one-fifth, or 20 per cent. I would suggest that this is not a valid argument for holding back an extension of powers to northern governments. What is the situation in some provinces at the present time? I do not have the figures in front of me but I believe that in the provinces of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, for instance, about 50 per cent of their revenue originates from the federal government.
Thus, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the basic approach in dealing with northern problems must be to start with the people who five there and with their children; we must show concern for their future needs. We must do this if we are to develop an adequate approach which takes into account these concerns and considerations.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I wish to apologize to my colleagues for my grating voice. This slight indisposition is not due to my visit to the North but rather to a particular situation which prevailed in Ottawa. As a matter of fact, if I had stayed
[The Acting Speaker (Mr. B6chard).]
DEBATES	November 21, 1969
longer up North, I would probably have avoided this because of the dry and brisk climate in that region.
I have not immediately answered the previous speaker because I believe that it is wiser to wait and hear all the arguments of those who take part in the debate before answering. If I had made any comments at the beginning of the debate, I would not have had the pleasure of hearing all the arguments of the hon. members. That is why I waited a while before answering.
I wish to thank all hon. members who have taken part in this debate for their objectivity and sincerity.
I am surprised to find that once again we are, to a certain extent, having a debate on the constitution. During my numerous visits to the North, even if I have not lived there, I had the opportunity, as Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, to visit at least some 40 localities north of the 60th parallel. And I must say that during my talks with numerous Indians, Eskimos and other citizens of the Northwest Territories, as well with the representatives of the various councils, I was never asked any questions about constitutional problems.
On the eve of the day when I introduced the new government policy on constitutional matters for the Northwest Territories and the Yukon in particular, I had the pleasure to take part in a radio program during which the people of Whitehorse and the Yukon could call me in order to ask questions on topical issues which could be of interest to them. Everyone in the Yukon knew at the time that the next morning I was going to address the Territorial Council on constitutional development.
Mr. Speaker, the citizens of the Yukon did not ask me one single question on that subject. They talked to me about all their problems concerning education, housing, pollution but no one asked me a single question on the constitutional development of the territory.
Too often, in my own province I have seen too many good things sacrificed on the altar of autonomy or the constitution, to make me like this kind of debate. However, since the opposition has seen fit to bring up the subject today, I should like first to deal for a few minutes with the remarks made by my hon. friend, the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen), concerning the request of the elected representatives of the Yukon territory, in particular the resolution they passed early in
November 21, 1969

1969. It is not necessary for me to deal at length with this subject because my Parliamentary Secretary managed to prove in a very adequate way and beyond the shadow of a doubt that this resolution is nothing but an official request for provincial status for the Yukon.


Erik Nielsen: No, no.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: That is the meaning of the text of the resolution read by the Parliamentary Secretary. It asks for all the powers of a provincial legislature: the legislative assembly and the executive control upon the whole administration within the territories.
They say publicly that they do not want provincial status, but this is what is being asked in substance. What makes the debate even more difficult for me is the fact that people give usually more importance to the form of the problems than to their substance, and in the present case, the council members ask very cleverly for provincial status while they know that the citizens of the Yukon do not want it since they do not dare to ask for it officially.


Erik Nielsen: That is not true.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: That is what I learned by reading the resolution.
The hon. member mentioned certain conversations which we had and I must admit that every time I said to the elected representatives of the Territorial Council that the difficulty of the problem came from the fact that they were asking in substance, but not formally, for provincial status, they always answered me with a smile rather than with a denial.
Mr. Speaker-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Speaker, would the minister permit a question?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Am I correct in interpreting the minister as having said the people of the Yukon do not want a greater degree of autonomy, responsible government, and that he bases his claim on the response to an open-line radio program in contrast with the official representations of the elected representatives on the council?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The hon. member should have listened to what I said, Mr. Speaker. I said the resolution called for the status of a
Yukon and N.W.T. Government province without the name, but I said that is not the prime concern of the people of the Yukon. To give an example, I said that I was on the hot-line for an hour and nobody asked me one question about the constitutional development of the Yukon. I did not say they did not want more power.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Does the council not speak for the people, the same as the elected representatives in this House speak for the people?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I could let you have your debate, but I just say it is not the prime concern of the people of the Yukon. The people of the Yukon do not want the federal government to move out of there because they know that we can work with the representatives to get a better development of the Yukon and a better atmosphere for economic growth in the Yukon.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, would the minister permit a further question?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Yes, Mr. Speaker, but it will be the last question because I would like to make my speech.


Erik Nielsen: You can have all the rest of the time this afternoon as far as I am concerned. My question is this: Does the minister support the resolution of the Yukon Liberal Association which I read into the record during my remarks?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The resolution of the Liberal Party up there is something that I took into consideration. They expressed their view but we have not accepted it. We have not accepted all the views of Liberals across Canada, but the Liberals have great confidence in the judgment of this government and I do not think they will be disappointed.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Does hon. James Richardson have the confidence-


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: If you want to be partisan, I too could be very partisan. We accept the view of everyone, and we are very proud to have the minister from Manitoba express his views. He is fighting the cause of the people in the west in a very able way, just as I am fighting the cause of my people. I do not always win; sometimes I have to abide by the views of the government. We are a very democratic party on this side of the House.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege-
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I was surprised to see the westerners applauding that.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: He is not speaking for the government; he is speaking for himself.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):: Order, please. The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) on a question of privilege.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)


Erik Nielsen: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I was not endeavouring to be partisan but merely to point out-and I am sure the minister believes me-that all the Liberals and the Conservatives on the council are unanimous on the question of this resolution.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I was not referring to the hon. member's partisan approach; I was referring to something the hon. member for Bran-don-Souris raised. He mentioned the speech made last Sunday by one of my colleagues. Expressing such views is a liberty which we in the Liberal party enjoy, and we are proud of it.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: There really was not any response from the government.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, it does not follow from the fact that the Territorial Council passed that resolution that the government had to accept it, because one should not confuse provincial status with democracy. According to the policy we advocated last week, an important step forward was made towards the establishment of a more responsible government in the Yukon.
We are going in the right direction. One may wonder why the executive power is not granted to the representatives of the Territorial Council.


Erik Nielsen: No, Mr. Speaker. If we are to say the executive committee is to be comprised of three civil servants and that one elected member is to be invited to serve on the committee, how can the minister interpret this as executive power residing in the council?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I will cover that point in a few minutes when I talk about the executive committee I am forming. We must not confuse democracy with provincial status. There are some people who are elected in the Yukon, and they are elected to do a certain job.


Erik Nielsen: En frangais!


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I can speak in both languages. As I say, they are elected to do a certain job. They pass legislation and have occasion to vote on the budget. Not only do they discuss the budget with the commission, but they perform their role in the same way that a Member of Parliament performs his role in the House. They fight their cases similarly.
Because the Yukon contains a small population in a vast territory, the people of the Yukon cannot generate enough revenue to run their own affairs. Even if the Yukon was a province of the same status as other provinces in Canada and was taking part in the same shared-cost programs, equalization payments, and so on, it would be in a position to obtain only $12 million. On the other hand, we are spending in the Yukon right now, under the heading of expenditures similar to those made in the provinces, more than $32 million.


Erik Nielsen: That is a disgrace.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: This is the "igloo to igloo" philosophy.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Those expenditures come under provincial headings and do not include federal types of expenditure for things like transportation, resource development, and so on.


Erik Nielsen: That is a distortion by the minister's officials.


An hon. Member:: Nonsense.


Erik Nielsen: It is not nonsense.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: As a result of representations made to me, and discussions-and more than once I have discussed this matter with the hon. member for Yukon-I decided to take a step forward and form an executive committee. On that committee three people will be appointed by the federal government and one by the elected members. This is true, and I do not deny it; but I hope it will be a first step. It is important to consider who will be chosen by the elected members, because he will be a member of the executive committee. On an executive committee numbers are not important; the quality of the representative is important. If he has a valid case to present- and I shall appoint only those whom I think have judgment-he will be able to bring his case forward in the Assembly and I will be in
November 21. 1969	COMMONS
a position perhaps to change what is complained of. So when the people of the area say there will not be representation, I say there will be representation.
The federal government is putting money into the area. The hon. member for Yukon can question me about the spending of this money. I am responsible to the Parliament of Canada and I am speaking as a member of a democratic institution. The hon. member for Yukon can put to us the case of the 18,000 citizens he represents. It is his job to do so.


An hon. Member:: He is not here often.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: He does so on many occasions quite ably. The hon. member himself has said that this is not the time to change the territory into a province, because it has neither the population nor the financial base.


Erik Nielsen: I did not say that.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: It is not a province, but a territory. We have given the Yukon a special status because of the different problems that exist there. The hon. member for Yukon represents a population of 18,000 people, while other members in the House are obliged by law to represent at least 50,000 people. He represents those people because we consider that the Yukon is a special case.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: What price democracy!


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: This is quite democratic and the hon. member is quite entitled to put his case here.


Erik Nielsen: Will the minister permit a question?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: At the end of my remarks, please. We have more than just an executive council, because we want to bring an elected member into the administration. This man will be given the responsibility of administering one or perhaps two departments. I do not know about that; I will discuss that with the other councillors. If that man chooses to administer education for example-and the hon. member referred to education-he will probably be involved with the equivalent local moneys collected in the Yukon-


Erik Nielsen: Under the direction of the Commissioner, who takes orders from the minister.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: And the minister is responsible to the most democratic assembly in Canada, the Parliament of Canada.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.
DEBATES	1125
Yukon and N.W.T. Government


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is colonialism.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: That is not colonialism. An area in Canada can become a province, or not become one. Here we have a territorial government and we are trying to find a way to cope with problems of communication that have existed. If what we propose works well, then we shall take another step in that direction. I said to the hon. member for Yukon that this was a first step. From 1958 to 1962, when the hon. member sat on the government side of the House, he did not suggest a forward step in that direction.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that is not so.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Ask Commissioner Gordon Cameron about that.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the minister to reconsider what he said, because he knows as well as I do that between 1958 and 1960 the Yukon Act was amended precisely as I outlined in my remarks this morning. These were progressive steps. We introduced the Advisory Committee on Finance, the Court of Appeal, and increased the assets of the council.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Did the hon. member's party bring in an elected member who was to sit on an executive committee?


Erik Nielsen: We brought in the Advisory Committee on Finance.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: It is democratic?


Erik Nielsen: It is not working.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I notice that the reforms put forward by the administration which the hon. member supported are not working. I am trying to bring in something new that will work.


Erik Nielsen: It will not work.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: At any event, Mr. Speaker, if we keep on exchanging interesting views, I will not be able to conclude.
As concerns the Northwest Territories, there was much talk about the Carrothers Commission and I must say that 19 out of the 28 recommendations that were made have
COMMONS DEBATES	November 21. 1969
Yukon and N.W.T. Government already been implemented in an unquestionable way, five others were partially implemented while four were rejected.
Some of my colleagues gave the reasons for that but I should like to deal at this stage with the advisability of establishing an executive committee in the Northwest Territories. Some of the Carrothers Commission's recommendations dealt with the establishment of an executive committee. It was not even suggested that the members of such an executive committee be elected.
I could perhaps answer the argument of the hon. member for Yukon by saying that the Carrothers Commission suggested that an executive council be set up for the Northwest Territories, but without specifying that its members should be elected.
A committee was formed. It is the only major recommendation made by the Carrothers Commission that was not implemented. In fact, a committee made up of the members of the legislative council of the Territories was formed. It recommended specifically to the federal government, that ad hoc committees be set up, instead of an executive committee, to study various problems and allow the elected members of the Territories to work more closely with the executive of the Territories.
We will comply immediately with the request of the elected representatives of the Territories by setting up a finance committee which will work in co-operation with the commissioner. However, we cannot accept the idea that the Northwest Territories are on the verge of becoming a province.
To my mind, it was only fair for the government to tell the citizens of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories what its views were, instead of keeping them in suspense for several months or years.
That is why I knew that some of my recommendations would not be very popular because for three or four years we have spoken of the Territories as near-provinces; then, they are bluntly told that it is not the case and that it will not be. It is quite normal, in such cases, to expect negative reactions.
And even then, the population would be insufficient, for that land, which includes nearly one third of the whole Canadian territory, has only 32,000 inhabitants. Most of them are Indians, Metis or Eskimos. Now, despite the election system that has been in force for many years in the Northwest Territories, up to now only one Eskimo has been elected to the Territorial Council; by the way, he supported the government when the policy

was announced. Another Council member, of Indian origin, who was not elected since he was appointed by the government, represents also the majority of the Northwest Territories population, which endorses the government's stand.
The revenues that the Northwest Territories could get, at the provincial level, amount to $19 million, as compared to current expenses of the order of $92 million. These figures cover assistance of all kinds which the federal government could grant them and which is exactly the type of assistance given to Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island and other low income provinces.
Only, it is a constitutional deficiency. Now the people of the territories know exactly where we stand. We have taken a new orientation towards a new democracy-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I am sorry to interrupt the minister but his time has expired, unless there is unanimous consent that he continue.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: I wish to thank hon. members for their kindness.
Until now we have worked at establishing a government more adapted to the circumstances, and if all is not well in the Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, nothing will prevent us from changing it later. Right now, the residents of those regions know exactly where they stand and I think that at least we have clarified the situation.
The important thing is the total development of the Territories. It is also important that the development of northern Canada which represents 40 per cent of our country, be progressive and rational. We must not engage in fantasies but rather implement programs for the development of the North.
At the present time, there are some problems which we would like to solve quickly. During one of my trips to Prince George, in British Columbia, I had the opportunity to explain the government policy on conservation of natural resources and pollution in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.
In my opinion, we now have in the territories the opportunity to undertake an economic and social development which will enable us to preserve the natural beauty of that area and to assure the rational development of resources without the confusion and pollution which exist in other parts of Canada.
November 21, 1969

The economic development proper, is now simply fantastic in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, when one considers that in 1963, the value of the mining production in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon amounted to only $20 million; in 1969 our mining production will be over $200 million.
With respect to possible new developments, we are told every day that new minerals have been found both in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
I could likewise mention other important breakthroughs, such as the famous Mary River mine in Baffin island which is perhaps one of the world's most important iron ore deposits.
I could also list many other areas in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, a part of Canada that is promised to the most spectacular development in the years to come, as we learn every day from mining explorations.
And what about the black gold rush, I mean the oil rush, going on in the Territories, and in northern Yukon, in the Mackenzie Delta and the Arctic Islands as well.
It is still more interesting to note that the potential there is perhaps as big, or even bigger, than the important finds of the past years on Alaska's north shore.
And when Panarctic Oils Limited, in which the share of the federal government is 45 per cent, and that of private enterprise 55 per cent, started its operations in the North, the Very first drilling uncovered a large concentration of natural gas of over 13 million cubic feet per day, which obviously means that the experts were absolutely right when they chose to drill at that all-important site for its sedimentary formation. This discovery of a large deposit of natural gas is perhaps not very significant due to the great distance from Melville islands. However, in view of the technological developments which make it possible to liquefy gases, and so on, the discovery may prove important for the future.
Another thing also is still more important: it is obvious that in these Arctic islands, the formation of hydrocarbons is highly important. In the near future, all Canadians will find new resources to compete or improve our balance of payments and our foreign markets.
Still, the socio-economic development of the North cannot be achieved unless all Canadians accept their responsibilities towards the first inhabitants of the Territories.
In that area, over 50 per cent of the residents are Eskimos or Indians, and in the Yukon the ratio is roughly 15 per cent.
Yukon and N.W.T. Government
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)


Erik Nielsen: That is not correct.


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, this is not important. As far as the Yukon is concerned, the ratio may vary slightly.


Erik Nielsen: It is 10 to 11 per cent. The minister's officials have added in the background papers-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien).


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, this is not important. I shall refer to the speech I made in Yellowknife and I shall say that, as regards employment:

The government now has the opportunity to ensure that development of resources in the north will be to the benefit of all citizens of the north. I made the plea, and I repeat it today, that there be an orderly development of resources in the north so as to provide employment for Eskimos and Indians who want to take employment. I am not saying that all Indians and Eskimos must be miners; that is not what I have in mind. But if they do want to take jobs, we want to make sure they are employed in the development of resources of the north. We must make it possible to establish in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon the kind of society that we want in Canada. I have indicated to the mining industry many times since I have been minister that they have to work in that direction, and I must say some good progress has been made.
For example, in the Yukon I have communicated with all companies, and more and more of the Indian people are being employed in mining and related services. While I was in Yellowknife last week I had the pleasure of signing an agreement with Pine Point Mines and the union to enable Indians and Eskimos to receive training if they wished to take employment with the Company. I know one should not be obliged to sign a contract to that effect, but I hope the day will come when this kind of training will be normal practice in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and ministers will not have to poke their noses into such matters as this.
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government
I do not want to take too much time of the House, but I do think that development of the north is the concern of all Canadians. A few years ago we decided we were concerned enough to spend some of the money raised in Canada on the development of this last frontier. We had no selfish intentions; we did this because we believed the Canadian north should be developed, not just for this generation but for generations to come. We must bear in mind that more money will be required in the years ahead. We must evolve policies and an infrastructure to assist the development of mines, resources and other related industries. What is more important is to make sure that the Canadian north does not become the private preserve of just the few; we must endeavour to ensure that all residents of the north, indeed all Canadians, will benefit from this development.
In closing I should like to say something that reflects the attitude of both the government and myself. Even if we have been a little negative in regard to constitutional development, we feel the time has not yet arrived in the Territories to take the next step of granting status as a province. This is due to the lack of population and financial resources that can be derived from all sources of income in the Territories. Having said that, my attitude is not one of blind opposition to progress, but of opposition to blind progress. I would ask the federal government, those in charge of northern resources and the Territorial government in the north, to work together with the people of the north and their representatives. This I stress very strongly.
It has often been said that the Northwest Territories and the Yukon have insufficient representation. I have disagreed many times with the hon. member for Yukon over many issues. He is the elected representative of the case for the Yukon in this democratic institution which is the House of Commons.
When people say that Yukoners are not democratically represented, they are expressing a very low opinion of the hon. member for Yukon. The same can be said for the hon. member for Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange) who also made some constructive remarks this afternoon. I do not accept all his suggestions, but up to now I have accepted many of his recommendations. He is the representative of the people in the Northwest Territories, and in this democratic institution he puts his case very ably to the administration. This is why we in this House today are spending all day debating, progressively and

responsibly, the development of the resources of the north and also constitutional questions. Together with the people of the north we will be able to develop what will become in a few years the most exciting part of North America.


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, before the minister resumes his seat I wonder whether I might ask him two questions. The Prime Minister indicated in a telegram to the Yukon Legislative Council that he and the minister would be pleased to receive in Ottawa either members or a delegation of members to discuss what we have been debating today. Having heard the minister, can he tell me whether any useful purpose would be served in a delegation of councillors visiting the Prime Minister and the minister, or is it possible that his enunciated policy might alter as a result of such meeting?
My second question is this: Since we have been discussing these matters in Yellowknife, in Whitehorse and all day today in the House, and since the government's policy has come out in specifics, will the minister not introduce early next week legislation that he can assure us will go to the standing committee as soon as possible in order that we can obtain the widest range of views?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, to reply to the hon. member's first question, the councillors have asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau) to receive them. I agree that any discussion with the Prime Minister and myself would help the situation and clear up any confusion that might be in our minds. After all, we are not blind; we can look at our mistakes. However, we will stress our case to them as well. I think we should hear the arguments of both sides, not just of one side. The councillors are moving from their stand taken in the resolution adopted last year, which asked for provincial status without actually calling it such. We will discuss this with them if they come. We are always open minded. The legislation is not ready, but I hope it will be ready soon. This involves a matter of drafting, but we will refer it to the committee as quickly as possible. I will be delighted to appear before the committee and explain the government's stand on this matter.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)


Erik Nielsen: I hope the minister-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. I am trying to be as generous as possible to the
November 21. 1969	COMMONS
hon. member in view of his particular interest in the resolution, but I draw his attention to the fact that there are at least two hon. members who want to speak. 1 should like to recognize the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Lefebvre) and the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Barnett). I am prepared to allow the hon. member another question if he insists, but I invite his co-operation.


Erik Nielsen: I have a very short question to ask the minister. Will he assure the House that his bill concerning the Yukon will not be introduced until after he has spoken to the delegation of councillors, particularly in view of his reply to my previous question in that regard?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I do not know when this meeting will come about, so I cannot give that assurance. If the councillors come in a week or two, the bill will probably not be ready.


Mr. T. Lefebvre (Pontiac):: Mr. Speaker, I am very much interested in this motion because I had the pleasure to visit the Territories with the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) on November 10, 11 and 12. I was not long in noting that the minister is very well known in this huge country and that he had studied in detail problems concerning not only the citizens of the Territories but also all Canadians.
I notice that most of the people living in the Territories trust the minister and know that he is loyal, efficient and honest. We are really happy to have a man of his character to head such an important department, not only for the citizens of the Territories themselves but for all Canadians.
The minister has been holding his portfolio for less than two years and he has already visited the whole Territories. When you consider that this part of the country represents 35 per cent of Canada's total surface, you realize the size of the land the minister has to look after.
During the few remaining minutes at my disposal, I do not intend to give the impression that I have become an expert after spending only three days in the North.
I just want to share the memories I have from my discussions with the citizens of that part of the country.
I attended several meetings where the minister delivered speeches, for instance in Fort
DEBATES	1129
Yukon and N.W.T. Government Smith and Yellowknife, in the Northwest Territories, and in Whitehorse in the Yukon.
Each time, people listened closely to those speeches, which were warmly applauded. Personally, I was in a position each time to observe the reactions of the citizens.
I had talks with dozens of people, before and after the minister's speeches, and I got the impression that the majority of these citizens did not expect the minister to announce the establishment of provincial status.
They certainly feel neglected sometimes, and if I may, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to my colleagues that they visit that part of the country each time they have the opportunity to do it. I am sure that all those who will be able to go there will, like me, return from their visit with a feeling of satisfaction and will remember the warm welcome from the people of the territories.
The problems these people are facing are almost of the same nature as those of my electors: they are asking for more roads, better communications, a better standard of living, a promising future for their children and the opportunity to live in peace.

The minister also mentioned his participation in the hot-line program while he was on his northern visit. I was with the minister on that occasion and should like to endorse what he said. For almost one hour he received calls from citizens all over the north country, not one of whom raised the subject of wider powers for the council or provincial status for the Territories.


Erik Nielsen: The minister had not spoken about constitutional development.


Thomas Lefebvre: The minister might not have spoken about it, but the way you talk one would think this was the only thing in the minds of the people up there. I endorse what the minister has said. They have problems similar to the problems in other parts of Canada. They do not think only about provincial status, as the hon. member is trying to make this House believe. They are thinking of many other things.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Government by open line.


Thomas Lefebvre: You fellows have all made your speeches. I only have two minutes left and would like to use them, if you do not mind. In speaking of the Carrothers Report I should like to read a couple of lines.
November 21, 1969

Yukon and N.W.T. Government [Translation]
All of us know that this Commission was created in 1965 at the request of the Territorial Council in order to suggest to the federal government the proper action to be taken to insure the Northwest Territories a greater share in government.
The best compliment the government can pay to those who work on such commissions is to give immediate consideration to their recommendations with a view to enforcing them with the least possible delay.
The evidence of the success achieved by Mr. Carrothers and his colleagues lies in the fact that a great many of the major recom-mandations were already being carried out the year following the submission of the official report, and that steps were being taken to carry out additional recommendations.
As regards the other suggestions, including those with long term effect on the territorial administration, the government awaited the proper time to put them into practice.
I intend today to inform the House of the federal government's intentions in regard to some of these recommendations as the minister himself announced in Yellowknife on November 10, 1969.
Mr. Speaker, may I call it five o'clock?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. It being five o'clock, it is my duty to inform the House that pursuant to section 11 of Standing Order 58 the proceedings on the motion are considered to have expired.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate have passed the following bills to which the concurrence of this House is desired:
Bill S-2, an act to amend the Quebec Savings Bank Act;
Bill S-6, an act to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act and other statutory provisions related to the subject matter of certain of those amendments;
Bill S-7, an act to amend the Foreign Insurance Companies Act;
Bill S-8, an act to amend the Trust Companies Act, and
Bill S-9, an act to amend the Loan Companies Act.
At five o'clock the House adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.