1969-01-15

QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. McCleave: 1.	Has the building of small post offices under the winter works programme been eliminated?
2.	How many post offices were constructed under the programme, and what was the total value of such contracts?
3.	Has an estimate been made of the man-hours of work provided and, if so, what?


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Public Works):: 1. Yes.
2.	Approximately 711 post offices were constructed under the programme at a total value of about $13,600,000., including the cost of sites, site surveys, legal fees and construction contracts.
3.	No.


BROADCASTING-PAT BURNS
Mr. Valade: 1.	Since January 1962, have any written or verbal complaints been addressed either to the B.B.G. or the Canadian Radio-Television Commission regarding Pat Burns, a radio commentator employed by radio station C.K.G.M. in Montreal and, if so (a) how many were received (b) what are the names in each case (c) what was the nature of these complaints?
2.	Since 1962, has the government or any member of the present or previous governments asked the B.B.G. or the Canadian Radio-Television Commission to investigate or report on (a) the statements or comments made over the air by the said Pat Burns (b) the complaints received by government bodies following these statements or comments?


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: I am informed by the Canadian Radio-Television Commission as follows: 1. (a) Since January 1962, the BBG and its successor the CRTC has received approximately 957 letters commenting on some aspect of the work of Mr. Pat Burns, while he was engaged in Vancouver by radio station CJOR, of which approximately 145 are letters of complaint. Since his engagement in August 1965 at
CKGM Montreal, some 56 letters of complaint have been received, (b) It is the policy of the CRTC not to release the names of persons corresponding with the regulatory body, (c) Complaints received relate to Mr. Burn's attitude and treatment of subjects discussed on open-line programmes.
2.	There is no record of members of the present or previous government asking for an investigation or report.


COLUMBIA RIVER SYSTEM-ARROW DAM
Mr. Harding: 1.	Was the Columbia River at the site of the Arrow Dam open to year-round river traffic prior to the dam construction?
2.	Is the operation of the lock in the Arrow Dam on a year-round basis and, if not (a) what is the present schedule (b) when was it put into effect?
3.	Who will defray the cost of operating the lock in the Arrow Dam?


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Acting Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	The British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority.


COMMUNITY PASTURE ON INDIAN RESERVES, SASKATCHEWAN
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 556-Mr. Burton: (supplementary)
2.	What government agencies are involved in the development of the project and what is the responsibility of each?
Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 2. PFRA is responsible for the development of the areas under a ten year lease agreement. The development program is scheduled to be completed by 1970. The pasture will be in operation by 1971. The PFRA will operate and maintain the pastures to the end of the lease agreement at which time the Indian Bands concerned will have the option for renewal.
The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development act as agents for the Indian Bands in entering into agreement with PFRA for this work and to mediate problems which may arise.
N.B. The other parts of this question were answered on November 13, 1968.

January 15. 1969
Questions


C.B.C.-MEXICO CITY SUMMER OLYMPICS
Mr. Coales: 1.	How many officials of the C.B.C. visited Mexico prior to the start of the Olympic Games?
2.	How many employees of the C.B.C. covered the Olympic Games and what is the estimated cost of the coverage of these games?
3.	What is the total amount obtained by the C.B.C. from sponsors for the coverage of the Olympic Games?
4.	What is the breakdown of employees covering the Olympic Games by divisions, both as to the French and English networks of the C.B.C. as well as to radio and television?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the C.B.C. as follows: 1. Five of the C.B.C. employees assigned to Mexico for the Oympic Games went there in advance in connection with preliminary planning for the C.B.C. Olympic coverage.
2.	The C.B.C. had 106 personnel in Mexico for Canadian coverage of the 1968 Summer Olympic Games. In addition, 23 C.B.C. employees were contracted out to the American Broadcasting Company, holders of North American broadcasting rights.
Total direct cost was approximately $930,000 including the cost of transmission facilities between Mexico and Canada, payment for Canadian T.V. rights, salaries of C.B.C. personnel, payments to casual employees and freelancers, transportation and living expenses, shipping charges on equipment.
3.	Billings to sponsors of the Olympic coverage amounted to $315,000 of which $84,000 was paid to private stations affiliated with C.B.C. networks, for a net commercial revenue of $231,000.
4.	English Radio, 21; English T.V., 38. French Radio, 12; French T.V., 24. International Service, 3; Administrative, 8.


Mr. Mahoney: 1.	How many C.B.C. employees were engaged in Mexico City covering the 1968 Summer Olympic Games (a) for television only (b) for radio only (c) for both radio and television?
2.	How many persons, other than employees, were retained by the C.B.C. to cover the 1968 Summer Olympic Games in Mexico City (a) for television only (b) for radio only (c) for both radio and television?
3.	Of the number of persons enumerated in the answers to each of parts 2 (a), 2 (b) and 2 (c), how many were from (a) Canada (b) Great Britain (c) the United States (d) Mexico (e) elsewhere?
4.	What was the cost, in Canadian dollars, to the C.B.C. in respect of the persons enumerated

in the answers to each of parts 3 (a) to 3 (e) inclusive and, in each case, how much of the cost was fees or retainers, and how much transportation, living and other expense allowance?
5.	What was the total cost, in Canadian dollars, to the C.B.C., in respect of the persons enumerated in the answers to each of parts 1 (a), 1 (b) and 1 (c) and, in each case, how much of this cost was salaries or wages and other normal payroll charges, and how much transportation, living and other expense allowances?
6.	How many minutes of Olympic coverage, originated in Mexico, were carried by the C.B.C. networks, between the dates of commencement and conclusion of the 1968 Summer Olympics, both dates inclusive, by the following methods and media (a) live on the French T.V. network (b) live on the French Radio network (c) live on the English T.V. network (d) live on the English radio network (e) delayed on the French T.V. network (f) delayed on the French Radio network (g) delayed on the English T.V. network (h) delayed on the English Radio network?
7.	Of the minutes of delayed coverage enumerated in the answers to parts 6 (e) to 6 (h), inclusive, how many were repetition of minutes of live coverage enumerated respectively in the answers to parts 6 (a) to 6 (d) inclusive?
8.	What was the total direct cost to the C.B.C., in Canadian dollars, of covering the 1968 Summer Olympics?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the C.B.C. as follows: 1. The C.B.C. had 106 personnel in Mexico for Canadian coverage of the 1968 Summer Olympic Games as follows: (a) Television, 62; (b) Radio (including International Service), 36; (c) Radio and T.V. (Administrative), 8. In addition, 23 C.B.C. employees were contracted out to the American Broadcasting Company, holders of North American broadcasting rights.
2 and 3. Fifty-two persons other than C.B.C. employees were retained in connection with the Games, 48 of whom were hired locally in Mexico to provide general services including messengers, drivers, typists, interpreters. The other four people were engaged in radio and television programming as analyst, researcher and commentators. Three were from Canada and one was from Great Britain.
4.	Cost in respect of the people referred to in 2 and 3 above was $37,500. This included an amount of $8,600 in fees, transportation and living expenses for the program contributors. The remainder was for salaries paid to the 48 people hired locally.
5.	Salaries, wages and other normal payroll charges in relation to C.B.C. employees engaged in Canadian radio and T.V. coverage amounted to approximately $92,000. Trans-
January 15, 1969


SEAPORT CARGO TONNAGE
Mr. Harding: 1.	What was the total cargo tonnage handled in the following seaports: Vancouver, Prince Rupert, Montreal, Halifax, Port Arthur-Fort William, Sept lies (including Pointe Noire) for the years 1966, 1967, 1968 to June 30th?
2.	What was the total revenue received by and the cost to the federal government from the operation of each of the above ports?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of Transport):: 1967	1968 to June 30
23,096,287	Not available
1,457,815	"
20,740,279	>*
9,363,659	
15,629,208	
22,665,183	
1967	1968 to June 30
$ 7,083,939	Not available
6,621,077	
$ 29,619	Not available
75,038	
$16,044,090	Not available
13,957,797	
$ 2,643,411	Not available
3,220,449	
$ 448,424	Not available
599,913	
$ 274,472	Not available
122,880	

January 15, 1969
Questions


JURISDICTION OVER ISLANDS ALONG QUEBEC COAST
Mr. Fortin: 1.	Has the Province of Quebec asked for jurisdiction over the islands along the coast of New Quebec?
2.	What progress has been made in negotiations concerning jurisdiction over these islands and what are the respective positions of the parties concerned?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. No.
2.	Not applicable.


ESQUIMALT HARBOUR POLLUTION
Mr. Anderson: 1.	Is the federal government presently engaged in any scheme to reduce the pollution of Esquimalt harbour caused by federally owned ships and installations?
2.	If so, what is the extent of the project and what results have been achieved?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1.	No.
2.	The only two vessels using Esquimalt Harbour regularly are the recently constructed weather ships which are already equipped with complete marine sewage disposal systems discharging an uncontaminated effluent and oily water ballast separators which prevent oil being pumped into the harbour.


TORONTO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT RUNWAYS
Mr. Robinson: 1.	What is the present length of the runways at Toronto International Airport?
2.	To what extent is it anticipated these runways will be extended by (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85?
3.	What new runways are to be provided by (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85?
4.	Is the present acreage of Toronto International Airport sufficient to meet the extension of runways as deemed necessary up to the years (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85?
5.	Is the present acreage of Toronto International Airport sufficient to provide additional runways apart from those presently in existence?
6.	How many additional acres of land will be required to extend each of the present runways of Toronto International Airport in accordance with anticipated needs by the years (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1.	The present length of runways at Toronto International Airport is as follows: Runway 14-32, 11,050'; Runway 05R-23L, 9,500'; Runway 05L-23R, 5,700'; Runway 10-28, 7,200'.
2.	It is anticipated that Runway 05L-23R will be extended to 10,500' by (a) 1970-75 (b) same by 1980-85. No change in other runway lengths by (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85.
3.	There are no plans for any new runways to be constructed in the period 1970-75 or 1980-85.
4.	Yes.
5.	The present acreage of Toronto International Airport is not sufficient to provide additional runways.
6.	No additional acres of land are required for the extension of present runways in accordance with anticipated needs by the years (a) 1970-75 (b) 1980-85.


ELIMINATION OF LEVEL CROSSINGS
Mr. Laprise: 1.	How many level crossings were eliminated during the past three years in each province, and (a) what share was paid by the federal government (b) what share was paid by the provincial governments?
2.	How many projects for the elimination of level crossings are planned for this year (a) in each province and what is the estimated cost?
3.	Is the federal government taking steps to expedite consideration of projects submitted by the provinces and to ensure that the sums voted for such projects are not returned to the treasury because the projects have not been carried out?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The Canadian Transport Commission advises as follows: 1. During the years 1965, 1966 and 1967, four hundred and seven (407) highwayrailway crossings at grade were eliminated as follows: 35, British Columbia; 54, Alberta; 88, Saskatchewan; 24, Manitoba; 107, Ontario; 72, Quebec; 13, New Brunswick; 7, Nova Scotia; nil, Prince Edward Island; 6, Newfoundland; 1, Northwest and Yukon Territories. Total, 407.
Of the above-noted total, 132 crossings were eliminated as the result of construction of grade separations, highway and/or railway diversions, for which commitments were made from the Railway Grade Crossing Fund
January 15, 1369



and from the provincial governments totalling $36,009,452 and $5,331,284 respectively, as
No. of Crossings
Province	Closed
British Columbia	10
Alberta	11
Saskatchewan	2
Manitoba	5
Ontario	53
Quebec	35
New Brunswick	9
Nova Scotia	4
Prince Edward Island	nil
Newfoundland	3
Northwest & Yukon
Territories	nil
Totals	132
2. From January 1st, 1968, to October 31st, 1968, the Railway Transport Committee approved 35 projects which will result in the elimination of 42 level crossings and commitments totalling $9,638,305 were made from the Railway Grade Crossing Fund as follows:
Commitment No. of	From
Crossings Railway Grade
Province To Be Closed Crossing Fund		
British Columbia	2	* 574,400Alberta	2	501,000Saskatchewan	1	500,000Manitoba	__Ontario	28	6,635,535Quebec	5	1,134,570New Brunswick	-	Nova Scotia	3	254,400Prince Edward	Island	-	Newfoundland	-	Northwest & Yukon	Territories	1	38,400Totals	42	9,638,305Sixty-two other crossings	were authorizedto be closed during this same period; how-	ever, no contributions	were	made from thefund toward the cost	of closing same.	
Questions
shown in the following table of distribution by province:	
Total Committed	Total Contribution
From Railway Grade	From Provincial
Crossing Fund	Governments
$	$
3,133,000	409,000
2,427,578	117,591
698,400	31,685
2,503,400	539,400
18,917,197	2,151,439
6,032,230	1,739,365
636,610	106,802
347,377	3,862
nil	nil
1,313,660	232,140
nil	nil
36,009,452	5,331,284
There are a number of applications for other projects now under consideration by the Committee, but it is not known how many of these will be approved during the current year.
3.	The coordination of the work of the Railway Transport Committee of the Canadian Transport Commission with the provincial highway authorities is constantly maintained through consultation and every effort made to expedite consideration of all projects submitted. Amounts credited to the Railway Grade Crossing Fund by statutory and other parliamentary votes which are unexpended at the end of a fiscal year are not returned to treasury because particular projects have not been completed. Commitments for projects which have been approved but which remain outstanding due to the time factor necessary for financing construction and auditing of accounts remain outstanding against the fund.


MANPOWER AND IMMIGRATION OFFICE ACCOMMODATION
Mr. Thompson (Red Deer): 1.	What was the amount allocated for alteration and upgrading of offices of the Department of Manpower and Immigration between February 1967 and the most recent available date?
2.	What was the amount allocated for the acquisition of new office space between February 1967 and the most recent available date?
3.	What was the amount allocated for the rental of non-federal owned buildings between February 1967 and the most recent available date?

January 15, 19G9
Questions
4.	What was the total number of persons employed by the Department at (a) January 1, 1966 (b) January 1, 1967 (c) January 1, 1968 (d) August 31, 1968?
5.	Of these, how many persons were employed In positions with a maximum salary above $12,000 per annum at (a) January 1, 1966 (b) January 1, 1967 (e) January 1, 1968 (d) August 31, 1968?
6.	How many persons have resigned, or given notice of an intention to resign, from positions with a maximum salary above $12,000 per year since January 1, 1966 and of those (a) how many have resigned or given notice of intention to resign, since June 30, 1967; (b) how many have resigned, or given notice of intention to resign, since June 30, 1968?
7.	How many persons in positions with a maximum salary above $12,000 per year have been transferred or advised that they will be transferred, to other departments since January 1, 1966 and, of these (a) how many since June 30, 1967; (b) how many since June 30, 1968?
8.	How many persons holding positions with a maximum salary above $12,000 per year have requested transfer to other departments since January 1, 1966 and of these (a) how many since June 30, 1967 (b) how many since June 30, 1968?


Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary to President of Privy Council):: I am
informed by the departments of Manpower and Immigration and Public Works as follows:
1.	The amount spent for alteration and upgrading of offices of the Department of Manpower and Immigration between February 1967 and the most recent available date was $1,274,915.
2.	The amount spent for the purchase and/ or construction of new office space between February 1967 and the most recent available date was $129,299.
3.	The amount spent for the rental of non-federal owned buildings between February 1967 and the most recent available date was $5,246,509.
4.	(a) 6494 (This is the total staff as at 31.3.66. Accurate figure as at 1.1.66 is not available); (b) 7070; (c) 8431; (d) 8570.
5.	(a) 91; (b) 150; (c) 233; (d) 265.
6.	7; (a) 5; (b) 4.
7.	11; (a) 10; (b) 7.
8.	Nil.


ADULT RETRAINING COURSES, RIMOUSKI CONSTITUENCY
Mr. LeBlanc (Rimouski): With regard to the administration of adult retraining courses, what is the name of each course director for each municipality in the constituency of Rimouski?


Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: Courses are given by the regional school commission in the following centres: Bic; Les Boules; Les Hauteurs; Luceville; Mont-Joli; Prince and St. Octave; La Redemption; Rimouski; St. Anaclet; St. Charles-Garnier; St. Donat; St. Fabien; St. Gabriel, St. Marcellin; St. Narcisse; St. Vale-rien; Ste Angele; Ste Blandine; Ste Jeanne-D'Arc; Trinite des Monts.
Course directors are provincial personnel and their names should be obtained from the province.


C.N.R. ATLANTIC REGION-EMPLOYEE BILINGUALISM
Mr. Coates: 1.	Have any employees of the CNR in the Atlantic Region been released or demoted in their employment because they are not bilingual and, if so, how many?
2.	Have any employees of the CNR in the Atlantic Region been informed that they will be released or demoted if they do not secure a working knowledge of the French language and, if so, how many have been so informed?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The Management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows: 1. It is the system objective that throughout the Province of Quebec and in other sections of Canada where French is the mother-tongue of a significant proportion of customers of CN services, persons dealing with the system either orally or in writing may be able to do so readily in either English or French. It is also the Company's policy and practice through language instruction to encourage employees in acquiring the degree of proficiency in either language required by their present or prospective positions. Generally, it can be stated that any employees affected by the implementation of the foregoing objective exercise seniority within their respective groups in accordance with existing wage agreements and the Railway makes every effort to find alternative employment for employees who may be affected by any changed conditions.
2.	No.


NATIONAL GRID SYSTEM
Mr. Coates: What progress has the federal government made in the establishment of a national grid system for the transportation of electrical energy?
January 15, 19G9


Jean-Luc Pepin: A report on this subject by the Federal-Provincial Working Committee on Long Distance Transmission has been submitted to all participating governments and was tabled in the House of Commons on December 11, 1968. The federal government is encouraging the strengthening of regional transmission interconnections as a first step towards a national transmission grid.


SPRINGHILL, N.S.-MINE DUMP FIRE
Mr. Coaies: 1.	Were officials of the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources at the site of the mine dump fire at Springhill, Nova Scotia and, if so, for what reason and at whose request?
2.	What are the names of the officials who made the visit to Springhill, what positions do they hold in the Department and did they prepare a report and, if so, for whom and is this report confidential or available to the public?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Yes. To inspect the nature of the fire at the request of the Area Development Agency then under the Department of Industry and now under the Department of Forestry and Rural Development, and the Nova Scotia Department of Trade and Industry.
2.	T. E. Tibbetts, Head, Coal Preparation and Surveys Section, Fuels Research Centre of the Mines Branch visited the site on April 11, 1968 and again on September 30, 1968, at which time he was accompanied by D. J. O'Brien, a Technician with the department's Fuels Research Centre Laboratory, Sydney, Nova Scotia. A brief memorandum was submitted to the Nova Scotia Department of Trade and Industry and others concerned. A further report will be submitted after completion of examination of dump samples.


RETURNING OFFICERS-QUEBEC
Mr. Godin: 1.	How many returning officers have been appointed since 1965 in the Province of Quebec?
2.	What is the name and address of each officer who is still holding this position and who held it before 1965?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Chief Electoral Officer as follows: 1. 85.
2. Abitibi, Mr. Paul-Henri Poitras, 35 Principal Street, Amos, Quebec; Beauharnois,
Questions
Mr. Joseph Primeau, 80 Ellice Street, Valley-field, Quebec; Bonaventure, Mr. Louis Lacroix, Carleton-sur-Mer, Quebec; Charlevoix, Mr. A. Edmond Bertrand, P.O. Box 368, Pointe-au-Pic, Quebec; Chicoutimi, Mr. Leon-Georges Gauthier, 295 Labrecque Street, Chicoutimi, Quebec; Compton, Mr. Herve Blouin, Saint-Isidore-d'Auckland, Quebec; Hull, Mr. Jean-Louis Garneau, 81 Saint-Joseph Boulevard, Hull, Quebec; Laprairie, Mr. Yvon Joyal, 270 Lesperance Street, Saint-Lambert, Quebec; Manicouagan, Mr. Roger Savard, 566 Joliette Street, Hauterive, Quebec; Matane, Mr. An-dre-A. Levesque, P.O. Box 70, Amqui, Quebec; Portneuf, Mr. Guy Renaud, 106 Jacques-Cartier Boulevard, Donnacona, Quebec; Saint-Hyacinthe, Mr. Jean-Paul Brault, 1001 Sacre-Coeur Boulevard, Saint-Hyacinthe, Quebec; Shefford, Mr. Paul Langlois, 354 Laurier Street, Granby, Quebec; Temiscouata, Mr. Jacques Miville, 22 Pelletier Street, Riviere-du-Loup, Quebec; Mount Royal, Mr. Wilfred G. Brown, 5849 McLynn Avenue, Montreal 29, Quebec; Papineau, Mr. J.-Armand Lau-rencelle, 7256 Christophe-Colomb Street, Montreal 10, Quebec; Saint-Jacques, Mr. Paul-Emile Jodoin, 1239 St-Timothee Street, Montreal, Quebec; Verdun, Mr. Romeo Aubertin, 3851 Verdun Avenue, Verdun, Quebec.


AIR CANADA-WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
Mr. Foriin: 1.	Was a decision made to move the Air Canada maintenance base from Winnipeg to Montreal and, if so (a) on what date (b) what are the reasons for the delay in putting such decision into effect?
2.	Did the President of Air Canada send a letter during February, 1963, to his employees informing them of the transfer of the base and, if so, what were the contents of this letter?
3. What recommendations were made in the report prepared by the R. Dixon Spears Associates and for what reasons were such recommendations not implemented?
4.	Over the past five years what oral or written directives have been given to Air Canada by the government or a Minister of the Crown?
5. What recommendations were made in the report prepared by the Wallace Clark Company in 1957?
6.	What were the recommendations of the Thompson Commisson?
7.	What was the cost of the inquiries carried out by (a) Wallace Clark (b) Dixon Spears Associates (c) the Thompson Commission?
8.	Were the conclusions of these three inquiries concerning the transfer to Montreal of the Air Canada maintenance base put into effect and, if not, for what reasons?
9.	Will consideration be given to having the directors of Air Canada appear before a Parliamentary Committee to give evidence in this connection?

January 15, 1969
Questions


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The management of Air Canada advises as follows: 1. Yes. (a) In 1957, to be effective with the phasing out of Viscount aircraft, (b) There are still a substantial number of Viscounts in operation.
2.	No.
3.	The Winnipeg Base should be closed down at the earliest possible date. Air Canada's facility planning is in line with this recommendation. "The earliest possible date" has been established as the date when phasing out of Viscount aircraft reduces their numbers below 30.
4.	See attached copy of announcement made by the Hon. Paul T. Hellyer December 9, 1968.
5.	That Air Canada construct a single consolidated Main Base located at Dorval.
6.	Commission agreed with Air Canada and their consultants that a single base is best for Air Canada.
7.	(a) Approximately $100,000. (b) Approximately $57,000. (c) Air Canada's expenditure: $98,500.
8.	See (1) above.
9.	Air Canada's officers have appeared from time to time before the Parliamentary Committee on Transport and Communications and have dealt with questions concerning the Winnipeg Base.
December 9, 1968
"Paul T. Hellyer, Minister of Transport, announced today the Government of Canada's proposal for maintaining repair and overhaul facilities in Winnipeg and developing additional aero space manufacturing activity in Manitoba.
These plans include the retention of Viscount overhaul work, further maintenance work from other companies, and new work in building and assembling parts for new jet aircraft.
Following serious consideration of the representations made by the Air Policy Committee of Manitoba, the Government of Cana-ada agreed that the people of Manitoba and the Winnipeg employees of Air Canada should be protected against the consequences arising from the Air Canada decision of several years ago to establish consolidated maintenance facilities in Montreal.
The Government has therefore authorized Air Canada to commence negotiations with two large Canadian firms to enable one of them to undertake continued operation of
(Mr. Fortin.]
the overhaul base in Winnipeg. Such negotiations will involve protection of the interests of present employees, maintenance of the present level of work, and provision for further expansion.
The two companies, Northwest Industries Limited and Aircraft Industries of Canada Limited, have each submitted plans for major development of the Winnipeg overhaul facilities. Activity at the Base will include present Viscount maintenance, additional Air Canada work, substantial repair and overhaul work from Lockheed California, repair of National Defense aircraft, and maintenance of other commercial aircraft. In addition, the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation has undertaken, as a result of purchases by Air Canada and the initiative of the Federal Government, to place substantial manufacturing and repair work with Manitoba firms. The combination of these specific commitments can produce in Manitoba a major centre of aero space activities.
It is expected that negotiations with these companies will require several weeks. During this time the Government of Canada has agreed to reconstruct the Working Party, composed of representatives of the Government of Canada, the Government of Manitoba and Air Canada to review all facts and considerations upon which the proposal has been based.
In announcing its proposal, the Government of Canada has fulfilled the commitment made by former Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson, reiterated last year by the present Minister of Transport that..."the Base will continue to be used for the overhaul of Viscount aircraft as long as these aircraft are in service" and . . . "to ensure that other aircraft work is available in Winnipeg so that the eventual withdrawal of Viscounts is at least balanced by new activities"...
The Government of Canada believes that through the cooperation of the people and the Government of Manitoba, this proposal will permit Winnipeg to look forward to continued prominence as a major centre in the rapidly expanding aircraft industry."


BELL TELEPHONE CABLE TV
Mr. Robinson: Is the government considering legislation to provide that the Bell Telephone Company be given power to provide Cable TV service at nominal cost to subscribers?
January 15, 1969


Hon. Eric W. Kierans (Postmaster General):: In so far as Telecommunications is concerned: In accordance with the Bell Telephone Act, Bell Canada has the power to provide television transmission channels to persons or companies authorized to operate television broadcasting receiving undertakings, otherwise known as CATV systems, and to receive compensation therefor.


TORONTO-THIRD TELEVISION OUTLET
Mr. Robinson: Is the government considering a third TV outlet lor Metropolitan Toronto although Cable TV is being implemented?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Radio-Television Commission as follows: The Canadian Radio-Television Commission has announced it will hear applications for licences to carry on UHF television broadcasting transmitting undertakings at Toronto at its public hearing commencing on February 4, 1969 in Ottawa.


WINTER WORKS REPLACEMENTS
Mr. Matte: 1.	What precise measures does the government contemplate to adequately replace winter works?
2.	Are some projects presently in progress?
3.	If so. what are these projects?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: It is the government's intention to give a more extensive application to those manpower programs which are most efficient and effective in combating not only winter unemployment but unemployment in general. In the current fiscal year the federal government will spend $197 million to provide training and retraining for adult workers. As compared with the previous fiscal year, this is an increase of $47 million. The federal expenditure last winter on municipal winter works totalled approximately $25 million. There is also a program which will this fiscal year provide various kinds of mobility grants to approximately 30,000 workers involving expenditures up to $4 million. The counselling and placement services of Canada Manpower Centres across the country have been greatly extended and improved. The government feels that its new and modified manpower programs are much broader in scope and more effective in application than the Municipal Workers Incentive Program was.
Questions
To ensure that as many adult workers as possible are trained when they are unemployed rather than being pulled off the job to take training, the program is planned so that wherever possible, training takes place in regions where unemployment is highest. In addition, in co-operation with most of the provinces, as much as possible of this training will be carried out in the winter months. This, in fact, will take place this year and even more so next year and subsequently.


FORESTRY AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of Forestry and Rural Development issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing and stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


Mr. Russell C. Honey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Forestry and Rural Development):: 1. Yes: 35.
2.	(a) Nil; (b) $146.75; (c) $397.60; (d) $118.30; (e) $1,087.00.
3.	(a) Standard 32M Bond and 20M Bond, (b) 110,600 sheets-cost $258.70.
4.	350 (estimated).


LEVIS, QUE. SHIPYARDS
Mr. Caouette: Does the government intend to set up a corporation to develop the shipyards at Levis and, if not, for what reason?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The government does not intend to set up a corporation to develop the shipyards at Levis. There is already a privately owned shipyard in Lauzon with substantial employment. It is not the policy of the government to form Crown Corporations to compete with private industry.
Questions

January 15, 1969


ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Yes. Thirty-one press releases issued in both English and French.
2.	(a) $60.12; (b) $80.60; (c) $30.50; (d) $225.43; (e) $223.20.
3.	(a) Cover sheets, 20 lb. bond; subsequent sheets, 16 lb. bond, (b) 24,800 sheets; $84.92.
4.	Depending on the nature of the press release, federal-provincial and policy implications, or the necessity to clear the release with officials in provincial governments, the time required for the preparation (research and writing) of a news release can vary from about an hour to several days.
Production, including typing and duplicating in English and French, averages two man-hours per release. Distribution averages three man-hours per release.


FOREST FIRE CONTROL
Mr. Robinson: 1.	Is the government planning any further program to control the outbreak of forest fires?
2.	What forest fire program is provided by the government in National Parks?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the departments of Fisheries, Indian Affairs and Northern Development as follows: 1. The Forestry Branch of the Department of Fisheries undertakes a continuing program of forest fire research designed to assist forest fire control agencies in Canada in the control of forest fires. It is the intention of the Department of Fisheries to increase resources allocated to forest fire research and related services with emphasis on

solutions to practical fire control problems. As an example, the Department of Fisheries has set up a task force to undertake a thorough investigation of the potential usefulness of a country-wide mobile fleet of airtankers.
2. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is responsible for forest fire protection in our National Parks.
Each National Park has trained staff and facilities suited to its size and nature to provide effective forest fire protection of our park lands. The program includes forest fire prevention, detection and suppression activities as well as the provision of modern detection, communication and suppression equipment.
Additionally, the National Parks Service co-operates closely with forest fire protection agencies responsible for lands adjacent to the National Parks.


DEBATES SUBSCRIBERS
Mr. Caouelfe: How many subscribers were there to both the French and English versions of the House of Commons Debates for each year since 1963?


Hon. Donald C. Jamieson (Minister of Defence Production):: Insofar as the Department of Public Printing and Stationery is concerned: The Debates of the House of Commons are sold and distributed on a sessional basis. Figures are therefore not available annually, as requested. Actual circulation figures are only available for the last two sessions, and the present session to date.
English French Edition Edition
27th Parliament
1st Session (January 18, 1966 to May 8, 1967)	13,451	2,6492nd Session (May 8, 1967 to April 23, 1968)	12,689	2,56828th Parliament 1st Session (to November 30, 1968)	13,211	2,622
The above does not include the distribution made by the Joint Parliamentary Distribution Office.
These figures are maintained for procurement purposes, to show the upward or downward trend and, having served this purpose, are not held any longer. The department's need for circulation figures is met by those of three sessions, including the one currently in progress.
January 15, 1969


CANADIAN COUNCIL OF RESOURCE MINISTERS MEETINGS
Mr. Nielsen: 1.	How many meetings have been held by the Canadian Council of Resource Ministers since the inception of the Council?
2.	Of the total number of meetings held, how many have been attended by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and/or his predecessors in office and in what year or years were such meetings attended?
3.	Has the Legislative Council of either the Yukon or Northwest Territories been requested to participate in such meetings by their elected representatives?
4.	If not, for what reason and is it the intention that they will be invited to participate in future meetings?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Nine.
2.	None has been attended by the present Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Five were attended by his predecessor, in the years 1962, 1963, 1964 and twice in 1965.
3.	No.
4.	Membership of the Canadian Council of Resource Ministers is, by custom, restricted to Ministers of the Federal and Provincial Governments. Attendance at meetings of the Council by others than the Federal member of the Council, who is the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, would depend upon the subject matter to be discussed. Matters relating to the Yukon or Northwest Territories would, of course, be referred to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.


TORONTO-WORK TO BE UNDERTAKEN
Mr. Robinson: What works are to be undertaken by the Department of Public Works in Metropolitan Toronto in the years 1968-72 inclusive and what is the extent of each project and where is each to be located?


Arthur Laing: The following works are to be undertaken in Metropolitan Toronto with Department of Public Works funds for the balance of the fiscal year: City Delivery Building: Air conditioning Cafeteria, $48,200; Postal Station "C": Air treatment, $24,000; Postal Station "P": Lighting improvements, $18,000; Postal Station "K":	Community Release Centre,
$45,500; Rexdale Public Building: Air conditioning-Stage 2, $34,300; Sunnybrook Hospital: Lighting improvements, $5,000; Willow-
Questions
dale Public Building: Air treatment-Stage 2 $56,000.
It is not possible to state what works will be carried out in the ensuing years as this is dependent on the approval of estimates by Parliament.


SEA OTTERS FOR RESTOCKING PURPOSES
Mr. Anderson: L Has the federal government any agreement with the United States with respect to the provision by the State of Alaska for sea otters to be used for restocking purposes on Vancouver Island or has it been requested by the provincial government of British Columbia to assist in any way the procurement of sea otters for restocking purposes?
2.	Will the federal government intercede on behalf of the provincial government in order to obtain such animals from the United States or other countries?


Mr. E. F. Whelan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries):: 1. No.
2. Not applicable.


VICTORIA, B.C.-DOCK DEPTH INFORMATION FROM CHARTS
Mr. Anderson: 1.	Do Canadian Hydrographic Service Charts accurately indicate the depth of water alongside the Government docks in Victoria B.C., and, if not, what is the present depth of the water?
2.	Will the appropriate federal department arrange for (a) the dredging of the silted portions of Victoria harbour (b) the reprinting of hydrographic charts to accurately reflect present water depths?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the departments of Energy, Mines and Resources and Public Works as follows: 1. Canadian Hydrographic Service Chart 3415 accurately indicate the depth of water alongside the Government docks, Piers A and B in Victoria, B.C., as found by a survey in March 1966. Three additional soundings were added to the inner end of the north side of Pier B, by Notices to Mariners, from a survey in December 1966. The accuracy of the charted soundings has been verified by a field check in December 1968.
2. (a) Recent survey indicates no serious siltation and therefore it is not proposed to carry out dredging in the immediate future; (b) As no inaccuracy has been found no chart action is required.

January 15. 1969
Questions


INDIAN AFFAIRS STAFF
Mr. Howard (Skeena): How many people were on the staff of the Indian Affairs Branch for each of the fiscal years
1957-58, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62, 1962-63,
1963-64, 1964-65, 1965-66, 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The staff strength for the Indian Affairs Branch is given below: April 1957, 1875 (1072); April 1958, 1896 (1136); April 1959, 2031 (1223); April 1960, 2152 (1292); April 1961, 2288 (1353); April 1962, 2325 (1377); April 1963, 2315 (1391); April 1964, 2375 (1437); April 1965, 2550 (1479); April 1966, 2760 (1487); April 1967, 2900 (1537); April 1968, 3175 (1617).
N.B. Teacher positions denoted in brackets.


PERSONS HAVING INDIAN STATUS
Mr. Howard (Skeena): What was the population, in Canada, of those persons who had Indian Status pursuant to the Indian Act for each of the fiscal years, 1957-58,
1958-59,	1959-60,	1960-61,	1961-62,	1962-63,	1963-64,
1964-65, 1965-66, 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: Population figures are maintained on a calendar year basis and they are as follows: December 31, 1954, 151,558; December 31, 1958, 174,242; December 31, 1959, 179,126; December 31, 1960, 185,129; December 31, 1961, 191,709; December 31, 1962, 198,220; December 31, 1963, 204,796; December 31, 1964, 211,389; December 31, 1965, 218,098; December 31, 1966, 224,164; December 31, 1967, 230,902.
The Department is unable to provide a figure for December 31, 1957. Prior to 1958, the only figures available are those in the Indian Census reports by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics published every five years, thus the only figure available prior to 1958 was for the year 1954.


INDIAN AFFAIRS EXPENDITURES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): How much money was spent by the Indian Affairs Branch for each of the fiscal years 1957-58, 1958-59,
1959-60, 1960-61,	1961-62,	1962-63, 1963-64, 1964-65,
1965-66, 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1957-58, $27,851,649;	1958-59,	$36,390,112;	1959-60,$41,116,191;	1960-61;	$46,427,090;	1961-62,$50,461,340;	1962-63,	$51,001,803;	1963-64,$55,596,833;	1964-65,	$64,763,745;	1965-66,
$85,681,719; 1966-67, $104,645,398; 1967-68, $122,509,730; 1968-69, 136,093,420, estimated.


TELEVISING OF N.F.L. GAMES
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape: Breton-East Richmond):
What are the costs to the C.B.C. for televising the National Football League games?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the CBC that the total cost of carrying the National Football League games on both CBC English and French television networks averages $3,350 per game. This is more than offset by commercial revenue.


OLYMPIC GAMES-C.B.C. PERSONNEL
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breton-East Richmond): 1.	How many people were sent to Mexico by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to cover the Olympic Games?
2.	What was the total cost in salaries or wages for these people?
3.	What were the costs, if any, to other agencies or networks in regard to the coverage by the C.B.C. of the Olympic Games?
4.	What were the total hours televised publicly by the C.B.C. in Canada in relation to the Olympic Games in Mexico?
5.	What revenues were derived by the C.B.C. in relation to coverage of the Olympic Games?
6.	Was any attempt made to have any other T.V. service cover the Games for the C.B.C.?


Gérard Pelletier: 5.	Billings to sponsors of the Olympic coverage amounted to $315,000. of which $84,000. was to private stations affiliated with CBC networks, for a net commercial revenue of $231,000.
6.	No.


SASKATOON, SASK.-SECOND TELEVISION STATION
Mr. Douglas: 1.	Is a second television station for Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, currently under consideration?
2.	If so, when will a decision be announced?


Gérard Pelletier: 1.	and 2. See reply to Question 553, Hansard No. 62 p. 3804.


SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN RIVER DAM EXPENDITURES
Mr. Douglas: 1.	What is the total expenditure to the end of the last fiscal year on the South Saskatchewan River Dam and associated irrigation and power projects by (a) the federal government (b) the Saskatchewan Government?
2.	What further expenditures, if any, are yet to be made on this project by the federal government?


Russell Clayton Honey: 1. (a) $108,382,000; (b) This information is available from the provincial government.
2.	$5.2 millions (estimated to 1978).


FREELANCE BROADCASTERS WITH C.B.C.
Mr. Reid: 1.	Does the CBC employ "freelance broadcasters" and, if so, what are their terms of reference and by what guide-lines are they governed?
2.	Did the CBC employ Jeremy Akerman during 1968 as a "freelance broadcaster" and, if so, during what months was he employed, and what was he paid through wages, commissions, fees, etc., per month during his employment?
3.	What was the specific nature of his work for the CBC, and on what programmes, if any, did his material appear?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the CBC as follows:
1.	Yes. Terms of reference and guidelines vary depending on the nature of the assignment involved. All material broadcast by the CBC must, of course, be consistent with CBC policies and adhere to the regulations of the Canadian Radio-Television Commission.
Questions
2.	Yes. Mr. Akerman was employed in August, September, October and November. It has not been customary to require the CBC to disclose amounts paid to individuals.
3.	Mr. Akerman worked as researcher, interviewer, host and speaker. His material appeared on the television program "Inside Out" and on the radio programs "Insomniac", "Ottawa Insight", "In Canada This Week" and "Ottawa Arts Magazine".


DEFENCE PRODUCTION EMPLOYEES LANGUAGE QUALIFICATIONS
Mr. Fortin: Among the employees earning $17,000 or more per year in the Department of Defence Production, how many are (a) Canadians whose mother tongue is French (b) Canadians whose mother tongue is English (c) others (d) bilingual?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: (a) Four; (b) Seventy-one; (c) One; (d) Twelve.


ASSISTANCE TO MEET COST OF TRANSPORTATION TERMINALS
Mr. Robinson: Is the federal government contemplating any direct financial aid to municipalities to offset the capital cost of transportation terminals for road, rail and airline service in major cities?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The federal government accepts responsibility for the provision of airports including terminal buildings at sites which receive more than a minimum number of scheduled aircraft movements; this includes all major cities in Canada. No direct financial aid is contemplated to offset the capital cost of terminals for road or rail transport.


FEDERAL AID ON ROAD CONSTRUCTION COSTS
Mr. Robinson: Is the federal government contemplating any direct financial aid to municipalities to offset the capital cost of major road transportation arteries to major cities, airports and transportation terminals as an adjunct to the Trans-Canada Highway system?


Arthur Laing: So far as the Department of Public Works is concerned the answer is no.

January 15, 1969
Questions


R.C.M.P. REGINA-&quot;F&quot; DIVISION BUILDING
Mr. Benjamin: 1.	Has construction been delayed on the proposed new "F" Division Headquarters building for the R.C.M.P. in Regina?
2.	On what date was construction originally planned to start?
3.	What is the new date planned for the start of this construction?


Arthur Laing: 1. Yes, at the request of the R.C.M.P.
2.	During the summer of 1969.
3.	This project has been indefinitely postponed.


R.C.M.P. REGINA-SPACE IN DERRICK BUILDING
Mr. Benjamin: 1.	Has the R.C.M.P. leased space in the Derrick Building in Regina to be used by the operational division for Saskatchewan?
2.	If so (a) for what reason was this space leased (b) for how long a period (c) what is the extent (d) the cost per square foot, and (e) the total cost of the area leased?


Arthur Laing: 1. The Department of Public Works has leased space for the R.C.M.P. in the Derrick Building in Regina.
2. (a) To accommodate F Division Headquarters; (b) Five years; (c) Total space is 22,800 square feet, consisting of 22,670 square feet office space and 130 square feet storage space; (d) $4 per square foot for office space and $2 per square foot for storage; (e) $90,940 annually.


MOTELS IN NATIONAL PARKS
Mr. Caouelie: Has the federal government any plans relative to the construction and operation of motels or other public conveniences in the national parks in (a) Canada (b) the Province of Quebec and, if so, in what language will these services be available?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: The Federal Government policy for the construction and operation of motels and similar public conveniences in the National Parks stipulates that these will be built and operated by private enterprise as a result of public calls for tender. The staffing and servicing of each facility is the prerogative of the individual entrepreneur. The general operation of each facility is subject to the provisions of the lease and appropriate sections of the National Parks Act and related regulations.

Directional and informational signs are to be provided in Canada's official languages in all Parks. A similar program is being carried out in the production of new interpretative materials (exhibits, informational folders, etc.) as well as in the updating and replacing of those now in current use. This large project is now under way with the bulk of this work scheduled for completion towards the latter part of 1970. National Parks' staff are being provided in accordance with the requirements of the Public Service Commission Regulations and the intent and provisions of the proposed Official Languages Act.
There are no National Parks in the Province of Quebec.


TEMISCAMINGUE, QUE.-POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Caoueife: 1.	Does the government intend to enlarge or build new post offices in the constituency of Temis-camingue and, if so, when will tenders be called?
2.	Does the government intend to set up a mail carrier service in other places in the constituency of Temiscamingue and, if so, when will the service be set up and where?


Yves Forest: I am
informed by the departments of Public Works and Post Office as follows: 1. Tenders are expected to be called for the construction of a new Post Office building at Rollet, Que. in the summer of 1969.
2. No.
Note: The basic requirement for the establishment of letter carrier delivery in any community is the availability of 2,000 calls in a concentrated and well developed area. There is no community other than Rouyn and Noranda in the constituency of Temiscamingue that has developed to the stage where it can be foreseen when it will qualify for the establishment of house to house delivery by having the required number of calls.


TEMISCAMINGUE-FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO GOLD MINES
Mr. Caoueffe: 1.	What financial aid was granted to each of the gold mines in the constituency of Temiscamingue during the past fiscal year?
2.	What profits did each of the mining companies in question declare during the past and present fiscal year?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. The amount
January 15, 1969

of assistance payable to Wasamac Mines Limited under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was $508,938 for the year 1967. The Wasamac mine was the only gold mine operating in the electoral district of Temiscamingue in 1967. Nine other gold mines operated in the adjoining electoral district of Villeneuve in 1967.
2. The gold mining companies in common with other companies are required to report profits earned only to the Department of National Revenue for income tax purposes. Annual reports to shareholders by the companies usually contain a statement of profits earned.


CANADIAN OIL RESERVES
Mr. Harding: 1.	What were Canada's estimated oil reserves for the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive in terms of (a) barrels (b) number of years' supply?
2.	For the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive, how many barrels of oil were (a) produced in Canada (b) imported (c) consumed in Canada (d) exported?
3.	For the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive, what percentage of possible maximum capacity was produced by Canada's oil industry?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Departments of Energy, Mines and Resources and Industry and Trade and Commerce as follows:
1.
	Crude Oil Reserves	Number of
Year	Barrels	Years' Supply1961	(a) 4,173,569,000	(b) 18.91962	4,480,702,000	18.41963	4,881,492,000	18.71964	6,177,646,000	22.41965	6,711,237,000	23.01966	7,791,751,000	24.31967	8,168,173,000	23.1
Questions


VETERANS AFFAIRS PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of Veterans Affairs issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?
Hon. Jean-Eudes Dube (Minister of Veterans Affairs 1. Yes; 14.
2.	(a) $21. (b) $30. (c) $90. (d) $5. (e) $63.
3.	(a) No. 7 Bond 32M. (b) 6,000 sheets- $13.36.
4.	82 hours (estimated).


LOCATION OF CONSULTATIVE CONFERENCES WITH INDIAN PEOPLE
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	(a) What was the location and date of each one of the so-called consultative conferences with Native Indian people which were held during 1968 (b) are any additional such Conferences planned and, if so, for what location and for which dates?
2.	What is the name of each Cabinet Minister who attended each of the Conferences and the days of each such conference during which said Minister was in attendance?
3.	(a) With respect to the Conference which was held at Lakelse, Hot Springs, was any indication given or motion passed, or statement made by the Native Indian delegates thereto that the particular Conference was only recessed and a request made to reviving the Conference at the earliest possible date (b) has another date been set for the resumption of that Conference and, if so, what are the details relating thereto?
2. See Table II attached.	Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):
Percentage of Possible	1. (a) Location	DatesYear	Maximum Capacity	Yellowknife, N.W.T.	July 25, 26, 271961	53.5	Moncton, N.B.	July 29, 30, 311962	54.7	Toronto, Ont.	August 12, 13, 141963	56.1	Fort William, Ont.	August 16, 17, 191964	52.9	Sudbury, Ont.	August 21, 22, 231965	54.1	Regina, Sask.	September 16 to 201966	49.1	Quebec (Courville)	September 30 to1967	50.9	Que.	October 4
4304
Questions

January 15, 1969
Location
Prince George, B.C. Whitehorse, Yukon Terrace (Lakelse) B.C.
Nanaimo, B.C.
Dates
October 14 to 18 October 21 to 23 October 24 to 28
October 30 to November 2
The Department paid their expenses in accordance with Government Travel Regulations.
2.	Each Indian delegate is provided with an honorarium of $10 per diem.


NEWFOUNDLAND-RESETTLEMENT PROGRAM
[Stage Direction]
Kelowna, B.C. Chilliwack, B.C. Edmonton, Alta. Winnipeg, Man.
November 12 to 16 November 18 to 22 December 11 to 14 December 18 to 21
1.	(b) Plans are being made for a meeting in Ottawa for further discussions with Indian representatives selected from the delegates at each of the 15 meetings held across Canada. No date has been set.
It is planned to have a second series of cross Canada meetings to discuss the actual proposed legislation, the amendments to the Indian Act, following its introduction in the House of Commons.
2.	See Question No. 618 (Parts 1 and 2), tabled in the House of Commons, December 4, 1958.
3.	(a) At an in-camera session on October 28, the Indian delegates to the Lakelse meeting passed a motion requesting the representatives of the Government to return and continue consultation at the earliest possible date. In closing, the chairman declared the meeting recessed until they were provided with a date to continue, (b) No.

Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	With respect to the so-called Consultative Conferences relating to the Indian Act and attended by Native Indian people and departmental officials, what was the amount of expense money or expenses provided to (a) Native Indian delegates or participants, and (b) officials of the Indian Affairs Branch?
2.	Was any provision made to compensate the Native Indian delegates for wages or other income which they might have lost by reason of attending the Conferences and, if so, what are the details thereof?

Question No. 969-Mr. Carter:
1.	How many families in Newfoundland have been relocated under the government's Resettlement Program?
2.	What steps have been taken by the government to investigate serious complaints in Newfoundland emanating from people who have been relocated under the Program?
3.	Does the government intend to set up a committee to investigate the social and economic problems that are being encountered by people who have been relocated?


Eugene Whelan: 1. No. of people moved up to September 30, 1968, 9,413; No. of households moved up to September 30, 1968, 1,875; No. of communities evacuated, 76; No. of communities approved and in the process of evacuation, 106.
2.	No complaints have been received by this Department.
3.	The government's intentions in this connection have already been translated into action. Members of the staff of the Institute of Social and Economic Research of Memorial University, Newfoundland, have during the past six months personally interviewed 374 families with a view to establishing the social, economic and cultural benefits accruing to them or losses suffered by them as a result of the move they made.


SCHOLASTIC STANDING OF IMMIGRANTS FROM UNITED STATES
Mr. Goode: How many individuals with (a) Doctorate degrees (b) Doctor of Psychology degrees, have immigrated to Canada from the U.S.A. since the start of the Vietnam conflict?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. (a) The
Department paid the return transportation costs for each native Indian delegate. It also provided $15 per diem for living expenses. The diem covered travelling time, days spent in conference with departmental officials and for Sundays that interrupted a meeting; (b) fMr. Chretien.)


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No information is recorded for statistical purposes indicating the academic degrees held by immigrants. However, the table below gives a breakdown of immigrants in the professional category who came to Canada from the United States during the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive.
January 15, 1969

Professional Engineers: Civil, 291 Mechanical, 453; Industrial, 107; Electrical, 234; Mining, 178; Chemical, 185; Other, 137. Physical Scientists: Chemists, 236; Geologists, 263; Physicists, 40; Other, 103. Biologists, Agricultural Prof.: Biological Scientists, 163; Veterinarians, 55; Other, 58. Teachers: Professors and Principals, 2802; School Teachers, 3136; Other Instructors, 262. Health Professionals:	Physicians and Surgeons,
532; Dentists, 105; Graduate Nurses, 1207; Nurses-in-training, 33; Therapists, 66; Optometrists, 13; Osteopaths and Chiropractors, 24; Pharmacists, 24; Medical and Dental Technicians, 247; Other Health Professionals, 136. Law Professionals: 31. Religion Professionals:	1586. Artists, Writers, Musicians:
Commercial Artists, 121; Art Teachers, 37; Authors, Editors, Journalists, 336; Musicians and Music Teachers, 227. Other Professionals: Architects, 112; Draughtsmen, 300; Surveyors, 54; Actuaries, Statisticians, 46; Economists, 71; Computer Programmers, 45; Accountants, Auditors, 362; Dieticians, 42; Social Workers, 317; Librarians, 193; Interior Decorators, 73; Photographers, 67; Science Technicians, 369; Other Professionals, 670; Total, 15282.


MARC LALONDE-REMUNERATION RECEIVED
Mr. Muir (Cape Brelon-The: Sydneys):
1.	What was the amount received in salary and
expenses by Mr. Marc Lalonde during the period he acted as (a) Special Assistant to the Honourable E. D. Fulton, Minister of Justice, 1959-60 (b) Junior Counsel to the Industrial Inquiry Commission in the disruption of shipping on the Great Lakes in 1962 (c) Special Adviser to the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Taxation in 1962-63	(d)
Special Adviser to the Privy Council Office on securities, corporations and federal-provincial matters of a constitutional character in 1966-67, and (e) Special Adviser to the Prime Minister 1967-68?
2.	What remuneration has Mr. Marc Lalonde received from June 27th, 1968, to the present date as Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Department of Justice, the Department of Labour, and the Office of the Prime Minister as follows:	1. (a) Salary
$10,518.33; expenses $206.63; (b) Remuneration for Services at per diem rates-67i days at $100 per day, $6,725.00; 18J days at $150 per day, $2,775.00; Travelling Expenses, $1,635.00; Total, $11,135.00. (c) Fees, $2,280.00; expenses, $817.14. (d) For the period February 21, 1966, to December 31, 1966; fees, $20,243.75 and expenses, $4,664.86. For the period January 1,
Questions
1967, to March 31, 1967; fees, $5,372.50 and expenses, $700.00. (e) For the period April 1, 1967, to December 31, 1967; fees $25,987.50 and expenses $5,027.05. For the period January 1, 1968, to June 26, 1968; fees $18,000.00 and expenses $2,624.85.
2.	Total remuneration for the period from June 27, 1968 to November 30, 1968, is $13,575.00.


CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS-PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


Hon. Ron Basford (Minisier of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):: 1. Yes; 21.
2.	(a) $218.52; (b) $45.00; (c) $630.50; (d) $178.00; (e) $228.00.
3.	(a) No. 7 Bond, 32M; (b) 80,000 sheets;

4.	65.


TRENTON, ONT.-AVIATION TURBINE FUEL CONTRACTS
Mr. Mahoney: 1.	Have any contracts been let for the supply of aviation turbine fuel to the Canadian Forces Base, Trenton, Ontario, during 1966, 1967 and 1968?
2.	If so, was the fuel manufactured in Canada from Canadian crude oil?
3.	What quantity of fuel was involved and what price was paid or agreed to be paid for it?
4.	Were refiners of Canadian crude oil invited to bid and what were the lowest bids received from them?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: 1. Yes.
2. The fuel purchased for delivery during period June 1, 1966 to May 31, 1967 was refined in Canada from Canadian crude oil. Fuel purchased for delivery during periods June 1 to May 31 for the years 1967-68

January 15, 1969
Questions
and 1968-69 was refined in Canada from 3. Quantity of fuel involved and price paid imported crude.	was:
Contract
Period
1967-68
Estimated Quantity
9 000 000 gals, by tank wagon - $0.1365 prior to Jan. 1/67
$0.1375 effective Jan. 1/67 by tank car - $0.1465 prior to Jan. 1/67 $0.1475 effective Jan. 1/67 In 45 gal. drums - $0,363 prior to Jan. 1/67 - $0,364 effective Jan. 1/67
8.005.000	gals, by tank car - $0.1366
by tank wagon - $0.1483
In 45 gal. drums. - $0,477 Carload Lot
$0,625 Less Carload Lot
8.005.000	gals, by tank wagon - $0.1338
In 45 gal. drums - $0,497 Carload Lot
$0,645 Less Carload Lot
4.	Yes. The lowest bids received were: 1966-67: $0.1365 gal. by tank wagon; $0.1465 gal. by tank car. 1967-68: $0.1507 gal. by tank car for a 2 year contract; $0.1547 gal. by tank car for a 1 year contract; $0.1558 gal. by tank wagon for a 2 year contract; $0.1596 gal. by tank wagon for a 1 year contract. 1968-69: $0.24 gal. by tank wagon.


CHURCHILL, MAN.-DIESEL FUEL CONTRACTS
Mr. Mahoney: 1.	Have any contracts been let for the supply of diesel fuel oil to the Department of Public
Period	Estimated Quantity
Sept. 1,	1966 to		
August	31,1967	5,302,434	gals.
Sept. 1,	1967 to		
August	31, 1968	5,491,600	gals.
Sept. 1,	1968 to		
August	31, 1969	6,771,000	gals.
4.	No.
Works at Churchill, Manitoba, during 1966, 1967 and 1968?
2.	If so, was the fuel manufactured in Canada from Canadian crude oil?
3.	What quantity of diesel fuel oil was involved and what price was paid or agreed to be paid for it?
4.	Were refiners of Canadian crude oil invited to bid, and what were the lowest bids received from them?


Donald Campbell Jamieson: 1. Yes.
2.	No.
3.	Quantity of Diesel Fuel Oil involved and price paid is as follows:
Price F.O.B. Marine Terminal, Churchill, Man.
0.12962 per gal. prior to Jan. 1, 1967 0.13088 per gal. effective Jan. 1, 1967
0.12694 per gal.
Interim billing price 0.14 per gallon. Under the terms of the Lease Agreement with the contractor, the final price is established at the end of the contract period.

January 15, 1969


BROADCASTING-REQUESTS FOR NEWS TAPES
Mr. McCieave: 1.	On or about November 27, did any employee of the Canadian Radio-Television Commission communicate with radio stations requesting tapes of news broadcasts for a 24-hour period?
2.	Who was the employee and what is his position?
3.	(a) How many stations received these letters (b) how many of these have their renewal of license under consideration?
4.	For what purposes are the tapes to be used?
5.	Does the Commission propose to make information concerning the news broadcasts available to the task force studying government information services?
6.	Is any member or employee of the Commission also a member of the task force and, if so, who?
7.	Who initiated the request?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Canadian Radio-Television Commission as follows: 1. Yes.
Questions
5.	The Commission intends to provide information concerning newscasts to the Task Force as indicated in the letter sent to 10 radio stations dated November 29, 1968.
6.	No member or employee of the Commission is a member of the task force; Mr. Bernard Ostry, a consultant to the CRTC is a member of the task force.
7.	Mrs. Jean Bruce, Free-lance Researcher, Task Force on Government Information.


COMPOSITION OF FORCES PRIOR TO AND AFTER UNIFICATION
Mr. Robinson: 1.	What was the number of (a) Officers (b) Non-Commissioned Officers (c) men in each of the services (i) Navy (ii) Army (iii) Air Force immediately prior to unification of the Forces?
2.	What is the number of (a) Officers (b) NonCommissioned Officers (c) men in each of the services (i) Navy (ii) Army (iii) Air Force at the present time?
2. W. L. Mahoney, Supervisor, Log Exami-		Non-Commissioned of these services	Officers (c) men have left each (i) Navy (ii) Army (iii) Air		
nation.		Force?			
3. (a) 8 private stations and 2 CBC stations.		Mr. D. W. Groos (Parliamentary Secretary			
(b) Two.		to Minister of National Defence): 1. As of			31
4. For purposes of research.		January 1968:			
Officers &	Sgt. &	Pte. 4 &	Cadets	Above	Cpl.	Below	Navy	3,103	4,977	4,348	5,490	Army	6,070	9,074	12,255	13,450	Air Force	9,049	7,225	19,594	8,870	2. As of 31 October, 1968:	Officers &	Sgt. &	Pte. 4 &	Cadets	Above	Cpl.	Below	Navy	3,026	4,816	4,464	5,088	Army	5,911	8,855	13,477	9,985	Air Force	8,863	7,171	20,289	6,453	3. The number of releases for	all reasons from 1 February,	1968 to 31 October, 1968,	is as follows:	Officers &	Sgt. &	Pte. 4 &	Cadets	Above	Cpl.	Below	Navy	314	188	298	1,397	Army	554	529	553	2,464	Air Force	694	406	702	1,448	CANADIAN ARMED FORCES-WEARING OF	with regard to the	wearing	of the new uniform	forNEW UNIFORM	(a) Officers (b)	Non-Commissioned Officers	(C)men?	Question No. 994-Mr. Robinson:	2. When will all	(a) Officers (b) Non-Commis-	sioned Officers (c)	men, be	provided with the new	1. It is the intention of the Canadian Govern-	uniform?	ment and in its program of unification of the	3. By what date	will it	be compulsory for	allCanadian Forces to implement the further program	ranks to wear the new	uniform?	
January 15, 1969
Questions
4.	What is the cost to the Canadian Government to provide the new uniforms to (a) Officers (b) Non-Commissioned Officers (c) men?


Mr. D. W. Groos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence):: 1. (a), (b) & (c) Yes.
2.	(a), (b) & (c) By early 1972.
3.	When the Bases or Stations to which the individuals belong are completely equipped.
4.	(a), (b) & (c) Treasury Board has approved procurement of the new uniform at a maximum cost of $25 million based on outfitting 100,000 regular force personnel. However, during the re-equiping period, expenditures on the old style uniforms will be sharply reduced and partially offset the cost of the new ones by some $14 million.


NATIONAL DEFENCE PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of National Defence issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


David Walter Groos: 1. Yes; 738.
2.	(a) approximately $6.50; (b) $62.00; (c), (d) & (e) approximately $1,500.
3.	(a) mimeograph 9M 18 lbs; bond no. 7,
16 lbs; photostat 3M;	(b) approximately
100,000 sheets-$230.00.
4.	1600 hours (estimated).


GRAIN EXPORTS
Mr. Laprise: What were the quantities and prices of grain exported for the years 1941, 1951, 1961 and 1967?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The
Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that: The quantities and prices of wheat exported 
for the years 1941, 1951, 1961 and 1967 were
as follows:
Computed
Quantity	Value	AverageYear	Bu.	$'000	Price1941	196,646,340	161,856	$0,8231951	237,060,505	441,043	$1,8601961	366,961,460	663,191	$1,8071967	350,353,905	741,877	$2,118[English]


SATELLITE AIRPORTS IN METROPOLITAN AREAS
Mr. Robinson: Is it the intention of the Canadian Government to provide satellite airports for large metropolitan areas such as Montreal and Toronto?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: When the need for a satellite airport is established, at any location in Canada, it is the intention of the Department to provide such a facility within the limits of resources available.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT PRESS RELEASES
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of the Postmaster General issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1968?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?
4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


Eric William Kierans: 1.	Yes, 35.
2.	(a) $221.96; (b) $37.05; (c) $701.00; (d) $816.98; (e) $559.00.
3.	(a) No. 7 bond white, 32 M. base white; (b) 166,125 sheets, $418.63.
4.	1,014 man-hours.


VETERANS AFFAIRS HOSPITAL STAFF REDUCTION
Mr. McCleave: 1.	Is there any general order from the Department of Veterans Affairs directed at any of its hospitals or regional offices to reduce staffs?
January 15. 1969

Questions
2.	If so, in what hospitals or regions, and by what	AMOUNTS REALIZED THROUGH
personnel and percentage amounts?	SALES OF MORTGAGES


Hon. Jean-Eudes Dube (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: 1 and 2. No. Although no general order has been issued by the Department to reduce its staff in its hospitals and district offices, all hospitals and districts have been requested to review their staffing policies to determine if they could increase productivity without impairing the standard of care or services to veterans. The Department as a whole is endeavouring to achieve a 3 per cent increase in productivity. No institution or district was given any specific target as the objective for increased productivity was departmental, rather than by program or institution.
	Mortgage Interest
Date	Rate
1961 June	63%
Aug.	63%
Nov.	63%
1962 Mar.	6%
Nov.	63% 6%
1963 Jan.	6J% 6%
May	6|% 6%
1964 Feb.	63% 6%
May	6J% 6%
Sept.	6J% 6%
Dec.	6i% 6%
1965 Mar.	6\% 6%
May	6i% 6%
2. There was no fixed sales target. It was simply intended to make available for sale whatever amount was required to lay a firm basis for an active secondary market. No offerings were made during the latter part of 1965 because of the unsettled market conditions which developed in June and no auctions were held in 1966 and 1967 because


Mr. McCleave: 1.	What amounts have been realized by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in the sale of its mortgages, since this program was initiated, by year?
2.	Did the program realize, over-realize or underrealize its expectations?
3.	What steps, if any, are being considered to make mortgages on homes a more liquid asset and/or more attractive for investors?
4.	Are further sales of its mortgages contemplated by the Corporation and, if so, when and in what amounts?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. A total of $304.75 million was sold by
auction as shown below:	
Sold	Average
Amount	Accepted
($ million)	Price
12.50	101.17
13.50	101.35
15.00	101.79
15.00	97.60
11.75	102.26
18.25	97.20
11.00	101.97
16.25	96.55
14.50	102.70
20.50	97.61
7.75	102.64
17.25	97.69
10.25	100.97
14.75	97.85
8.50	99.24
16.50	101.00
9.00	100.96
16.00	98.24
14.00	99.96
16.00	98.41
13.50	99.66
13.00	98.32
304.75	
of the heavy pressure on the market for longterm funds.
3.	Several approved lenders have greatly increased their marketing efforts and are aggressively seeking purchasers, particularly pension funds. Some lenders, in conjunction with investment firms, have offered bonds backed by N.H.A. mortgages and some intend

January 15, 19S9
Questions
to offer participation certificates. A wider market and demand for mortgages will increase the liquidity of mortgages or securities backed by mortgages.
4.	No firm decision has yet been reached regarding further sales by the Corporation.


C.M.H.C.-RESEARCH TO DEVELOP NEW SYSTEMS
Mr. McCleave: What research, if any, has been undertaken by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to develop on their own new systems for building of homes?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has not specifically undertaken research to develop its own new systems for building of homes. However, funds are available under Part V of the National Housing Act for a wide range of matters relating to housing research and community planning.
New designs for better and lower cost housing are being developed continuously through cooperation with the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada by holding competitions and inviting the architectural profession in Canada to submit house designs. The plans for such designs are sold to the Canadian public at nominal cost.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation also encourages and provides financing for the development of new products and construction techniques, such as prefabrication and improved assembly techniques in cooperation with the National House Builders' Association, the Division of Building Research of the National Research Council and industry. In addition, C.M.H.C. maintains, through participation in international organizations and through other means, a system of information on the progress realized in these areas in other countries.
C.M.H.C. supports the development of individual household aerobic sewage disposal systems and the treatment of total wastes including human, household and all solid wastes at source within a large building complex. The objective is to eliminate the need for sewer and water lines and garbage removal from houses and large building complexes to reduce servicing and land costs.
C.M.H.C. provides funds annually to the Division of Building Research of the National Research Council for the testing and advice on new construction methods and products.


C.M.H.C. PENSION FUND INVESTED IN HOUSING
Mr. McCleave: What percentage of the pension fund of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is invested in housing?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 41.3 per cent.


CANADIAN ARMED FORCES-USE OF UNIFORM
Mr. Rose: 1.	Was there an order issued to the officers and men of the Canadian Armed Forces employed in Ottawa offices not to appear in uniform during working hours except during certain scheduled days of the week?
2.	If so (a) when was the order issued and by whom (b) what was the reason for such a decision?
3.	If not, under what conditions are service men and officers permitted to wear civilian garb while on duty?
4.	What is the number of senior officers stationed in Ottawa from Colonel up by rank?


David Walter Groos: 1. No. 2.
Not applicable. 3. Q.R. & O. Article 17.04 (1) (a) requires that, unless otherwise directed by the Chief of Defence Staff, officers and men on duty shall wear uniform. Within this regulation, permissive instructions are in effect for the various Branches at Canadian Forces Headquarters, allowing officers and chief warrant officers to wear civilian clothes on duty except when first reporting for duty at Headquarters, and on days when the Branch to which they are attached wear uniform. All other personnel are required to wear uniform every day except Friday, when civilian clothes may be worn. During the Christmas/New Year holiday season, all personnel may wear civilian clothes instead of uniform on duty at Canadian Forces Headquarters.
4.	As of 13 December, 1968: General, 1; Lieutenant-General, 4; Major-General, 11; Brigadier-General, 36; Colonel, 119; Acting Colonel, 2.


ATLANTIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD-PROMOTION OF ECONOMIC GROWTH
Mr. Stanfield: 1.	Has the Atlantic Development Board complied with Section 9 (1) (a) of the Atlantic Development Board Act requiring the Board to "prepare, in consultation with the Economic Council of Canada, an overall co-ordinated plan for the promotion of the economic growth of the Atlantic region"?
2.	If this plan has not yet been prepared, when will it be completed?
January 15, 1969

3.	If it is intended to present this plan by way of a series of intermediate plans, what undertakings, if any, have been given by members of the government and/or of the Atlantic Development Board concerning the timetable for (a) the initial report (b) succeeding reports?
4.	What is the present timetable for presentation of this report or reports?


Russell Clayton Honey: 1. The Atlantic Development
Board has been and is (a) examining the economic sectors to identify growth potentials and ways of achieving them; (b) developing an analytic framework within which the impact of specific sector policies on output, income and employment in the regional economy can be evaluated.
2.	The development of a plan, from the above and other material, depends on further work, and especially on close consultation with the provinces. Accordingly a completion time cannot be laid down.
3.	No undertakings have been given.
4.	Publication of background sector reports is expected to begin early in 1969.


AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS
Mr. Skoreyko: 1.	How many persons are currently employed as Air Traffic Controllers in Canada and (a) at Montreal International Airport (b) at Toronto International Airport (c) at Vancouver International Airport?
2.	How many persons were employed as Air Traffic Controllers in the years 1964, 1965, 1966 and 1967 in Canada and (a) at Montreal International Airport (b) at Toronto International Airport (c) at Vancouver International Airport?
3.	How many persons are currently under training in Canada as Air Traffic Controllers?
4.	Of the Air Traffic Controllers currently employed at Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver International Airports, how many, by airport, are classified as "trainees"?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1.	906; (a) 84; (b) 94; (c) 61.
2.	1964, 680; 1965, 794; 1966, 782; 1967, 862; (a) 1964, 78; 1965, 80; 1966, 83; 1967, 93; (b) 1964, 85; 1965, 89; 1966, 94; 1967, 96; (c) 1964, 57; 1965, 57; 1966, 61; 1967, 58.
3.	115.
4.	Montreal International Airport, 14; Toronto International Airport, 5; Vancouver International Airport, 7.


SUBSIDY TO NORTHLAND NAVIGATION COMPANY
Mr. Durante: Does the Northland Navigation Company receive a federal government subsidy for providing shipping
Questions
services to communities on the West Coast of Vancouver Island and, if so (a) what is the amount of the subsidy (b) what are the ports of call and the frequency of these calls?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes. (a) $130,000.00; (b) Sailings every week between Vancouver and ports on the west coast of Vancouver Island calling at Port Renfrew, Clo-oose, Bamfield, Ucluelet, Tofino, Ahousat, Hot Springs Cove, Mooyah Bay, Gold River, Kendrick Arm, Tahsis, Esperanza, Zeballos and Fair Harbour (Kyoquot).
If traffic warrants calls shall be made at Clayoquot, Kakawis, Espinosa Arm and Chamiss Bay and calls may be made at Ouou-kinsh Inlet by arrangement.


ST. CAMILLE, QUE.-CONTRIBUTION TO INDUSTRIAL INSTALLATION
Mr. Lambert (Belle-chasse): Did the federal government make a financial contribution to a study on an industrial installation at St. Camille, Bellechasse constituency as part of the ARDA program and, if so, what is the total financial contribution to date?


Russell Clayton Honey: Yes. $1,250.00.


BEAUMONT CAMPING SCHOOL,-FEDERAL ASSISTANCE
Mr. Lambert (Bellechasse): Did the federal government make a financial contribution to the establishment of the Beaumont Camping School in Bellechasse Constituency as part of the ARDA program and, if so, what was the total amount paid out for this purpose?


Russell Clayton Honey: Yes. $168,805.00.


MONTREAL TAX LOTTERY-POST OFFICE REVENUE
Mr. MacEwan: What has been the revenue received, to date, by the Post Office Department from the City of Montreal for distributing throughout Canada the application forms for the City of Montreal tax lottery?


Eric William Kierans: $157,216.02 since June 1968.

January 15, 1969
Questions


AIRFIELD IN GEORGIAN BAY AREA
Mr. Noble: 1.	Has the government made any preliminary investigation on a possible location of an airfield between Georgian Bay and Lake Simcoe?
2.	Have any options been taken on property in the same area?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1.	A preliminary investigation has been made for a local airport proposed for the Barrie area under the financial assistance programme.
2.	The Federal Government has not taken any options on property in this area but it is understood the local municipality has done so in connection with the local airport proposed for the Barrie area.


ST. ZACHARIE, QUE.-ROADS TO SUGAR BUSH OPERATIONS
Mr. Rodrigue: 1.	Has the construction of an access road been authorized with the assistance of ARDA, to facilitate the operation of sugar bushes at St-Zacharie, constituency of Beauce?
2.	When will the work begin?
3.	What is the amount authorized for this project?
4.	When will the project be completed?


Russell Clayton Honey: 1. Yes.
2.	Work began in October 1968.
3.	Estimated federal share-$4,500.00.
4.	Spring of 1969.


ARMED FORCES PENSION FUND
Mr. Durante: 1.	What is the present worth of the Armed Forces pension fund?
2.	What was the total amount in the Armed Forces pension fund at the end of each fiscal year since 1950?
3.	What is the present monthly contribution to the Armed Forces pension fund by servicemen, by the government?
4.	Is it the intention of this government to raise the service pension in the very near future and, if not, will such consideration be given soon?


David Walter Groos: 1. As of
March 31, 1968-$2,723,268,313.
2. As of March 31, 1951, $66,546,493; 1952, $111,046,070; 1953, $160,235,344; 1954, $217,157,455; 1955, $277,638,893; 1956, $346,-
[Mr. Kierans.)
373,948; 1957, $426,305,539; 1958, $513,868,559; 1959, $942,314,839; 1960, $1,053,010,906; 1961,	$1,155,332,721;	1962,	$1,279,329,154;1963,	$1,605,796,692;	1964,	$1,821,524,902;1965,	$2,028,122,460;	1966,	$2,184,209,822;
1967, $2,577,016,944; 1968, $2,723,268,313.
3.	Contributions for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1968 amounted to: Servicemen, $33,047,819; Government, $58,405,031.
Therefore, the monthly average would be: Servicemen, $2,753,985; Government, $4,867,086.
4.	The question of increasing the pensions paid to former members of the Canadian Forces continues to receive active consideration.


SUBSIDY TO INDUSTRIAL MILK PRODUCERS
Mr. Lambert (Belle-chasse): 1.	What was the cost to the Canadian Government of the subsidy paid to industrial milk producers from April 1, 1967 to April 1, 1968?
2.	What was the amount per province?


Hon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture):: 1. $106,874,970.41.
2.	P.E.I., $1,772,913	i.44; N.f	3., $623,569.52;N.B.,	$1,239,104.20;	Que.,	$45,725,390.28;Ont.,	$37,440,587.78;	Man.,	$4,820,335.29;Sask.	, $4,407,285.16;	Alta.,	$9,623,852.68;B.C.,	$1,221,932.06.


RICHMOND, QUE-POST OFFICE CLOSURES
Mr. Beaudoin: 1.	Does the Post Office Department intend to close down any post offices in the federal Constituency of Richmond?
2.	If so, where is each of these post offices located and what criteria is followed in the closing of such Post Offices?


Eric William Kierans: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Saints-Martyrs, P.Q.; (b) (i) The office serves less than 30 families exclusive of rural route patrons; (ii) Office now served by a rural route; (iii) Revenue is less than $1,000.00.


RICHMOND, QUE.-POST OFFICE CLOSURES
Mr. Beaudoin: 1.	How many post offices has the Post Office Department closed in the federal Constituency of Richmond during 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967 and 1968?
January 15. 1969

Questions
2.	On what basis does the Department decide that a post office should be closed?
3.	Does the Post Office Department intend to close other post offices in the federal Constituency of Richmond and, if so, which ones?


Eric William Kierans: In so far as the Post Office Department is concerned: 1. 1962, two; 1963, none; 1964, none; 1965, none; 1966, one; 1967, none; Constituency of Richmond-Wolfe.
Note: No Post Offices have been closed in the constituency of Richmond (new).
2.	(i) All Post Offices serving less than 30 families exclusive of rural route patrons; (ii) Offices now served by a rural route; (iii) All Post Offices with a yearly revenue of less than $1,000.00.
3.	Yes. Saints-Martyrs Post Office will be closed early in the new year.
Other offices which are being studied for possible closing:-Fontainebleau; Ham-Sud; Lefebvre; Marbleton; Notre-Dame-de-Ham; St-Claude; St-Fortunat; Ste-Helene-de-Ches-ter; Stenson; Upper Melbourne; St-Julien.


DIVORCES GRANTED
Mr. Beaudoin: Since December 19, 1967, how many divorces were granted by courts (a) in Canada (b) in each province?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that the number of divorces for Canada and the provinces is not available for the period requested. 1967 data, the latest year for which this information is available, is given in the following table.
Number of Divorces, Canada and Provinces, 1967
Canada	11,156
Newfoundland	11
Prince Edward Island	18
Nova Scotia	394
New Brunswick	292
Quebec	727
Ontario	4,341
Manitoba	477
Saskatchewan	399
Alberta	1,736
British Columbia	2,734
Yukon	21
Northwest Territories	6
29180-273J


RICHMOND, QUE.-PENSION COMMISSION OFFICES
Mr. Beaudoin: 1.	How many commissioners are there on the Canadian Pension Commission?
2.	Does the Commission have any appeal offices in the federal Constituency of Richmond and, if so (a) in what cities are they located (b) what are their addresses (c) their telephone numbers (d) the names of the officers in charge?


Jean-Eudes Dubé: Sixteen.
2. No.


ONTARIO-POLLUTION CONTROL IN LAKES
Mr. Crouse: 1.	How many lakes in Ontario are to be set aside by the Fisheries Research Board for their study of pollution control?
2.	How many access roads will be built by the federal government to these lakes?
3.	What is the estimated cost of road construction?
4.	What is the estimated cost of this pollution control experiment?
5.	How much time will be set aside for this work and how many men will be involved in these experimental studies by the department?


Eugene Whelan: 1. 42.
2. 1.
3.	$38,000.
4.	For 1968-69: Laboratory facilities and camp, $140,000; Experiments and salaries, $200,000.
5.	Up to 20 years; 7 full-time scientists and 15 technicians.


NOVA SCOTIA-USE OF LOBSTER TRAPS
Mr. MacEwan: Has the Minister of Fisheries reached a decision on the number of lobster traps which will be permitted for use in District 7-B Nova Scotia, during the 1969 lobster season, and, if so, what is the number?


Eugene Whelan: Yes; 400, unchanged from the 1968 season.


JEAN-PAUL MATTE-DEPARTMENTAL EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Matte: 1.	Is the former Member of Parliament for Champlain, Jean-Paul Matte, employed by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?

January 15, 1969
Questions
2.	If so, what is his position?
3.	What is his monthly or annual salary?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. Yes.
2.	Special Assistant to the Minister.
3.	$13,000 per year.


TORONTO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT CONSTRUCTION CONTRACT
Mr. Gilbert: 1.	Who were the architects for the original planning and construction of the Toronto International Airport?
2.	Was the contract assigned under competitive tendering and, if not, for what reason?
3.	Were the architectural plans acceptable to the government?
4.	What was the capacity of the airport planned by the architects and over what period of time?
5.	What were the architects fees for the above project?
6.	Is there a redesigning presently being undertaken of the International Airport or any extensions or new airports in the Toronto area?
7.	Who are the architects assisting in the redesigning or planning of a new airport and what are their fees?
8.	Was the above planning or redesigning contract awarded under competitive tendering and, if not, for what reason?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. On the assumption that the question relates to Aeroquay #1, Administrative Building, Power Plant, etc., the architects were John B. Parkin Associates, Toronto.
2.	No. It is the policy of the Government to select architects on the basis of their experience and capacity to undertake the work. The contract for construction of Aeroquay #1 was assigned under competitive tendering.
3.	Yes.
4.	3.2 million pasengers per annum to 1968.
5.	$2,022,041.87.
6.	Yes. A new terminal building plus runway extension and associated taxiways.
On the assumption that parts 7 and 8 relate to the new terminal building, the answers are as follows:
7.	No architects have been appointed.
8.	Tenders have not been called.


L-1011 AIRCRAFT-PURCHASES BY AIR CANADA
Mr. Skoberg: 1.	Was there any formal or informal agreement between the Government of Canada or Air Canada and the Lockheed Company in the United States regarding the purchase by Air Canada of 10 Lock-

heed L-1011 Jets and the placement of contracts by the Lockheed Company in Canadian Industry?
2.	If so, what were the terms and conditions of this agreement?


Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. There was no agreement between the Government of Canada and the Lockheed Aircraft Company regarding the placement of sub-contracts by that company in Canadian industry as a result of the purchase by Air Canada of 10 Lockheed L-1011 aircraft. However, prior to the purchase, discussions and negotiations between the Department of Industry and the Lockheed Aircraft Company regarding the placement of sub-contracts related to the L-1011 Aircraft took place.
2. The discussions referred to in (1) above involved no specific terms and conditions. However, it was arranged that Lockheed Aircraft Company negotiate directly with Canadian subcontractors, such contract negotiations recognizing that each Canadian supplier and Lockheed Aircraft Company would reach a selling price acceptable to both parties, which may include amortization of preproduction costs over a specific number of aircraft.


FUNDY NATIONAL PARK SPRUCE BUDWORM INFESTATION
Mr. Fairweaiher: 1.	Has the spruce budworm seriously infested lands owned by Canada at Fundy National Park?
2.	If so, is it proposed to control this infestation by spraying and selective cutting of timber?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. Yes. Fundy National Park is included in an area of southern New Brunswick for which a very severe infestation of spruce budworm is forecast for 1969.
2. Control by spraying and selective cutting in limited areas of heavy visitor use is planned.


CANADIAN WHEAT SALES
Mr. Laprise: 1.	To what countries and in what quantity did Canada sell wheat during 1968?
2.	What was the price per bushel?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The Dominion
Bureau of Statistics reports that:	1.
Canada's exports of wheat, in the period January to October 1968 (latest published information) are given in the attached table.
January 15, 1969

Questions
2. The computed average price covering total shipments of wheat was $2.02 per bushel.
Canada's Exports of Wheat in the Period January to October 1968 (latest published information)
Country	Quantity (Bushels)
United Kingdom	46,977,942
Ireland	627,089
Malta and Gozo	309,120
Austria	317,482
Belgium-Luxembourg	7,377,041
Finland	923,040
France	360,371
Germany West	8,658,917
Italy	11,297,675
Netherlands	15,788,049
Norway	1,100,288
Switzerland	1,954,337
Albania	1,337,168
Czechoslovakia	3,856,534
Hungary	2,443,570
Poland	6,669,458
USSR-Russia	39,523,527
Iraq	56,953
Jordan	12,860
Saudia Arabia	233,192
Sudan	24,067
Syria	579,039
Turkey	294,727
Ghana	302,581
Nigeria	385,466
Tanzania	186,695
Algeria	1,604,085
Congo-Kinshasa	36,500
Morocco	957,787
Senegal	1,653
Tunisia	461,626
Hong Kong	741,492
India	23,041,063
Malaysia	449,481
Pakistan	909,104
Singapore	109,400
Afghanistan	21,789
China Communist	70,026,817
Japan	41,986,827
Philippines	731,733
Taiwan	902,199
Ecuador	409,733
Venezuela	3,177,048
Barbados	294
Jamaica	647,988
Leeward-Windward Is.	702
Cuba	3,865,019
El Salvador	110,554
Guatemala	3,685
United States	365,353


CANADIAN ICE-BREAKING SHIPS
Mr. Godin: 1.	How many ice-breaking ships does the Canadian Government own?
2.	What are their names and what is the horsepower of each of these ships?
3.	In what parts of the country will they be operating during the winter of 1968-69?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. The Canadian Government owns: 9 full icebreakers; 1 icebreaking cable repair ship; 9 light icebreaking lighthouse and buoy tenders.
2.	The names and the horsepower of these vessels are: John A. MacDonald, 15000 SHP; d'Iberville, 10800 IHP; Labrador, 10000 SHP; N. B. McLean, 6500 IHP, Camsell, 4250 SHP; Montcalm, 4000 IHP; Wolfe, 4000 IHP; Sir Humphrey Gilbert, 4250 SHP; Ernest Lapointe, 2000 IHP; John Cabot, 9000 SHP (icebreaking cable repair ship). Light Icebreaking Lighthouse and Buoy Tenders: J. E. Bernier, 4250 SHP; Sir William Alexander, 4250 SHP; Simon Fraser, 2900 SHP; Tupper, 2900 SHP; Edward Cornwallis, 2800 IHP; Walter E. Foster, 2000 IHP; Thomas Carleton, 2000 SHP; Simcoe, 2000 SHP; Alexander Henry, 3550 SHP.
3.	The ice-breakers will be operating in the following parts of the country during the winter of 1968-69: 1. John A. MacDonald. Gulf of St. Lawrence and East Coast of Newfoundland. 2. d'Iberville. Until mid January will operate in Ship Channel and after Ship Channel duty will be directed to support Gulf operations as required. 3. Labrador. Gulf of St. Lawrence, South and East Coats of Newfoundland. 4. Sir William Alexander. Gulf of St. Lawrence, South and East Coasts of Newfoundland. 5. Tupper. Gulf of St. Lawrence. 6. N. B. McLean. Montreal to Quebec. 7. Montcalm. Montreal to Quebec. 8. Wolfe. Montreal to Quebec. 9. Sir Humphrey Gilbert. Newfoundland and Gulf of St. Lawrence. 10. Ernest Lapointe. Montreal to Quebec. 11. John Cabot. Cable repair off Newfoundland and Arctic. 12. J. E. Bernier. Sept lies to Quebec City. 13. Alexander Henry. Parry Sound. 14. Simon Fraser. Sept lies to Quebec City. 15. Edward Cornwallis. Nova Scotia. 16. Walter E. Foster. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. 17. Thomas Carleton. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. 18. Simcoe. Prescott, Ontario (laid up). 19. Camsell. Victoria, B.C.

January 15, 1969
Questions


L-1011 AIRCRAFT-CANADIAN PARTS MANUFACTURE
Mr. Fortin: 
Jean-Luc Pepin: 1. Over the last 18 months, the Department of Industry has worked closely with both the Douglas Aircraft Company and Lockheed Aircraft Company to ensure that, regardless of the selection of aircraft made by Air Canada, a substantial portion of components of such aircraft would be manufactured in Canada.
2.	It is not yet possible to define the percentage of the L-1011 aircraft which will be produced in Canada. However, Lockheed is currently negotiating with Canadian manufacturers for the supply of structural components, electronic equipment and auxiliary power units for the L-10,110 aircraft. In addition, the company is conducting bidding symposiums in Canada in January which will offer further opportunities for Canadian manufacturers to quote on the supply of components and parts.
3.	It is estimated that approximately 1,800 jobs in Canada may result from work on the L-1011 program, the build-up of such work reaching its peak in late 1971.


IRDIA-ELIGIBILITY FOR GRANTS
Mr. Broadbent: Under provisions of the Department of Industry's IRDIA Program, are all research and development expenditures, i.e., military or civil-oriented, eligible for grants?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The Industrial Research and Development Incentives Act makes no distinction between military and civil-oriented research and development.
[Mr. Hellyer.l


EXPENDITURES UNDER DEFENCE INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH PROGRAM
Mr. Broadbent: 1.	For each fiscal year, what have been the number of projects and the annual expenditures of the Defence Industrial Research Program of the Defence Research Board since the establishment of the program in 1961?
2.	For each fiscal year, what have been the annual expenditures of this program shared by the federal government and Canadian industry?


Hon. Leo Cadieux (Minister of National Defence):: Insofar as the Department of National Defence is concerned:
	Number of Annual	
	Projects Expenditures $	
1962-63	26	1,197,8141963-64	61	2,582,7261964-65	95	3,839,2661965-66	107	5,309,2391966-67	116	4,702,3101967-68	98	4,499,950Annual Expenditures (Government and Industry) $	1962-63	1,873,4711963-64	4,704,9211964-65	7,366,4361965-66	10,417,9711966-67	9,339,7611967-68	8,874,394



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Coates: 1.	Which Ministers in the present government have had their offices renovated since June 25th, 1968, in each case were both their offices in the House of Commons or Senate and their departmental offices renovated and what was the cost to the federal treasury for the renovations?
2.	Did the Minister of Trade and Commerce move his departmental office to the Skyline Hotel and, if so, why and what is the floor space rented or leased at the Skyline Hotel, for what period of time was it leased and what is the rate of the rental and what will be the annual cost to the federal treasury?
Return tabled.
January 15, 1969


COAL TRANSPORT SUBSIDIES
Mr. Harding: For the fiscal years 1964-65, 1965-66, 1966-67, 196768, 1968-69 (estimated) (a) what was the total subsidy paid by the federal government for the transport of coal (b) where, by province and company, did the subsidized coal shipments originate and in what quantities (c) to whom and in what amounts were the subsidies paid (d) of the total subsidized coal shipments, how much was (i) exported (ii) used in Canada?
Return tabled.


REPORT ON ADOPTION OF METRIC SYSTEM
Mr. Fortin: 1.	Has the interdepartmental committee which was examining the possibility of adopting the metric system in Canada completed its study and, if so (a) when will its report be ready (b) when will it be tabled in the House?
2.	What is government policy with respect to the objectives of the Standards Organization?
Return tabled.


OPERATION OF CENTENNIAL CARAVANS
Mr. Mongrain: 1.	By province, how many persons were employed during Centennial Year in connection with the operation of the ''Centennial Caravans"?
2.	What salaries or other remuneration or travelling expenses did each person receive?
3.	Was compensation paid for overtime and, if so, (a) to which employees was such compensation paid, and (b) how much was paid to each person?
Return tabled.


RENTAL OF OFFICE SPACE IN OTTAWA AREA
Mr. Forreslall: 1.	What is the total amount of office and other floor space, in square feet, owned or leased by the Government of Canada within a 25-mile radius of Parliament Hill?
2.	What percentage of this total is (a) owned (b) leased?
3.	What percentage of this total is in (a) the Province of Ontario (b) the Province of Quebec?
4.	What percentage of this total is within an area bounded on the north by the Ottawa River, on the south by Queensway on the east by the Rideau River and on the west by Bronson Avenue?
Return tabled.



CENTENNIAL MEDALS TO MEMBERS OF MILITIA

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 737-Mr. Robinson: (Supplementary)
1. What were the terms of reference in awarding Centennial Medals to members of the Militia?
Orders for Returns
2.	Who made the recommendation and/or decision as to who would receive Centennial Medals in the Militia in each military district and/or region?
3.	How many Centennial Medals were awarded to members of the Militia (a) Officers (b) non-Commanding Officers (c) men?
4.	What was the allotment of medals to each Militia Unit to (a) Officers (b) non-commanding Officers (c) men?
5.	Were any Centennial Medals awarded to Militia men as follows (a) Honourary Colonels of Units and, if so, how many and to whom (c) Honourary Lieutenant Colonels of Units and, if so, how many and to whom (c) Militia Advisors and, if so, how many and to whom (d) Commanding Officers of Units and, if so, how many and to whom (e) Officers Commanding Units, Sub-Units, Pools and, if so, how many and to whom (f) Militia Personnel Officers and, if so, how many and to whom (g) Militia Information Officers and if so, how many and to whom (h) retired (i) Officers (ii) nonCommanding Officers (iii) men and, if so, how many and to whom?
6.	What is the rank, name and address of each of the recipients of Centennial Medals in the Militia?
Return tabled.

Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	What was the total cost of the "Centennial Caravans" used for historical display across Canada during Centennial Year and, how many units were involved?
2.	What was the total price realized by the sale of these Caravans through Crown Assets Disposal Corporation and to whom were the Caravans sold?
Return tabled.



RETURNS UNDER CORPORATIONS AND LABOUR UNIONS RETURNS ACT

Mr. Skoberg: 1.	How many corporations have filed returns for each year since the passage of the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act?
2.	How many Labour Unions have filed returns for each year since the passage of the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act?
3.	How many corporations have not filed returns under the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act?
4.	How many Labour Unions have not filed returns under the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act?
5.	How many Corporations have been penalized under Section 6 (1) of the Act, for failing to file returns?
6.	How many Labour Unions have been penalized under Section 11 (1) of the Act, for failing to file returns?
7.	What is the total number of Local Unions for which returns must be filed by their parent organization?

January 15. 1969
Orders for Returns
8.	What Is the total number of Corporations for which returns must be filed?
9.	How many corporations have filed returns with the Dominion Statistician each year, since the Act was passed?
10.	How many of the returns received by the Dominion Statistician are now ready for publication?
11.	How large an administrative staff is directly employed in preparing the corporation returns?
12.	Is any other department assisting in preparing data for the corporation returns?
13.	How many persons are directly employed in preparing the labour unions returns?
14.	Is any other department assisting in preparing the labour unions returns?
15.	Are international unions required to provide returns, showing amounts expended on research, educational programs, and publications in Canada in addition to statistics on expenditures for salaries, strikes, and pensions and, if so, what is such requirement?
Return tabled.



BELANGER, OUELLETTE AND ASSOCIATES, MONTREAL

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Who are the individuals working for Belanger, Ouellette and Associates Inc., of Montreal, Quebec, who conducted a study for the Department of Manpower and Immigration and what amount was paid to that company for that study?
2.	What is the academic background of each of these people?
3.	What is the professional experience of each of these people?
4.	When will a final decision be made about implementing the recommendations made to the government by the company?
Return tabled.



OPERATIONS RESEARCH INDUSTRIES, OTTAWA

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Who are the individuals working for Operations Research Industries of Ottawa, Ontario, who conducted a study for the Department of Manpower and Immigration, and what amount was paid to that company for that study?
2.	What is the academic background of each of these people?
3.	What is the professional experience of each of these people?
4.	When will a final decision be made about implementing the recommendations made to the government by the company?
Return tabled.



OPERATIONS RESEARCH INCORPORATED, MARYLAND

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Who are the individuals working for Operations Research Incorporated of Maryland, U.S.A., who conducted a study for the Department of Manpower and Immigration, and what amount was paid to that company for that study?
2.	What is the academic background of each of these people?
3.	What is the professional experience of each of these people?
4.	When will a final decision be made about implementing the recommendations made to the government by the company.
Return tabled.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Valade: 1.	Did the government rent space in the Sherbrooke Building located at 2120 Sherbrooke Street East in Montreal?
2.	If so, what is the term, annual cost, effective date and expiration date of the lease?
3.	What federal agencies occupy this space?
4.	Did the government receive recommendations in favour of this building and, if so, from whom?


Yves Forest: The Department of Public Works advises as follows: 1. Yes.
2. and 3. First lease: 29,643 square feet, at the rate of $121,212.16 per annum, from September 15, 1966, to September 14, 1971. Premises occupied by Department of Transport. Second lease: 20,610 square feet, at the rate of $93,775.50 per annum, from June 1, 1967, to May 31, 1972. Premises occupied by Unemployment Insurance Commission.
4.	No.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Yves Forest: Would Your Honour be kind enough to call notices of motions Nos. 51, 61 and 62?
I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the remaining notices of motions be allowed to stand.
January 15, 1969



SUPREME COURT JUDGMENTS Motion No. 51-Mr. Fortin:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a return showing, since the Supreme Court of Canada was instituted (a) the number of judgments rendered by judges whose mother tongue was French and, of those, the number of judgments rendered (i) in French (ii) in English (b) of the judgments rendered in English by judges whose mother tongue is French, the number of judgments respecting Quebec (c) the number of judgments rendered in French by judges whose mother tongue is English.


Hon. John N. Turner (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, with respect to this notice of motion for the production of papers the information requested would be very difficult to provide since in judgments of the Supreme Court a judgment is often written by one or more judges of the court, and the motion would compel assumptions about the mother tongue of certain of the judges since confederation.
I admit quite readily that notices for the production of papers taken together with the question period are one of the fundamental rights of the opposition, but I would submit to Your Honour that such a motion is for the production of information peculiarly within the possession of a minister or within the public service.
The judgments of the Supreme Court are published monthly. They have been published since confederation, and are public documents. The information is readily available to the hon. member. What he is asking the government to do is not to provide him with information but to do some statistical research. I would suggest that since this statistical information is not in the possession of the department and further, since it is not ordinarily required for departmental purposes it would entail, with greatest respect, laborious effort. Since, as I have said, the judgments of the court are public documents, a statistical analysis can be made of them by anyone who wishes to take the time to do so. Therefore, I would submit to your Honour that this is not a proper motion for the production of information but is rather a request for statistical research. In the circumstances I would ask the hon. member whether he would be prepared to withdraw it.


Mr. Fortin:: Mr. Speaker, after hearing the remarks of the honourable minister of Justice
Motions for Papers
concerning motion 51 by which I was trying to find out to what extent the Supreme Court of Canada, a federal body, is truly bilingual or whether it is an Anglo-Saxon reserve, I must say that the minister's answer shows beyond all doubts, since he has not been able to provide me with the requested information, that it is definitely an Anglo-Saxon reserve. Now, the request for information is aimed-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, order.


André-Gilles Fortin: -precisely-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, order.


André-Gilles Fortin: -at bringing-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Is it the wish of the hon. member to withdraw the motion?


André-Gilles Fortin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe the matter to be extremely important.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the wish of the hon. member that the motion be transferred for debate, pursuant to standing order 48?


André-Gilles Fortin: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



NORTHUMBERLAND STRAIT CROSSING-CONSTRUCTION CORRESPONDENCE

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 61-Mr. MacDonald (Egmont):
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and any other persons, organizations, or governments, with respect to the construction of the Northumberland Strait Crossing project since September 1, 1967.
Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, this motion is acceptable subject only to the usual reservations in respect of items that are privileged and, in the case of the provinces, concerning their approval.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservations and conditions expressed by the minister, is it the pleasure of the house that notice of motion No. 61 be deemed to be adopted?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 62
Mr. MacDonald (Egmont):: That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of all surveys, reports

January 15, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry
and enquiries respecting costs and benefits and engineering feasibility of the Northumberland Strait Crossing project received by the Government of Canada since September 1, 1967.
Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Public
Works): Mr. Speaker, this motion relates to documents that are in almost every case privileged. Those that are not privileged and encompassed by it will be tabled under the previous motion No. 61. I would therefore ask the hon. member for Egmont whether he would agree to withdrawal of the motion.


David Samuel Horne MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I am agreeable to withdrawing it provided the minister can assure me that this pertains to documents not only available to the government of Canada but also to the government of Prince Edward Island, and that the Stanford research document on cost benefit would be among those the minister would make available.


Arthur Laing: May I ask
the hon. member if I might reserve my decision on that until I have a look at it.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreed that motion No.
62 stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Motion stands.


Mrs. Grace Maclnnis (Vancouver-Kings-way):: Mr. Speaker, while we are on this order I should like to ask the house leader if he could facilitate the production of papers in respect of my motion No. 17, permission for which was given on October 30. I cannot again ask the Minister of Transport (Mr. Hel-lyer) because I believe his part has been completed, but there are other departments involved. Would the house leader be good enough to inquire into this.


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Those documents were tabled today.



ORAL QUESTION PERIOD


Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. It 
arises from the statements of the Hon. Judy LaMarsh concerning a so-called kickback system in the purchase of United States films by the C.B.C. I think it is important that these matters be investigated. Is the minister investigating this matter and, if so, will he report to the house on the matter? In the meantime will he undertake to table in parliament the full report of the committee of the president of the C.B.C. which was referred to by Miss LaMarsh and which I understand was refused to the Commons committee on broadcasting on an earlier occasion.


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I have not read Miss LaMarsh's book but I have read a few excerpts from it in the newspapers. I had to do some important reading during the parliamentary recess and I did not get a chance to glance through that book. Therefore, I do not know exactly to which report the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stanfield) is referring.
As for the other complaints he alluded to, I am sure that should the C.B.C. receive any complaints, it would immediately take measures to correct the situation.
Up to now, neither the C.B.C. management nor myself, as a minister, have received any complaints and I would be happy to get, from Miss LaMarsh or any one else, any definite information likely to solve the problem.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, I wonder
whether the Secretary of State will answer the questions I asked him. Although I recognize I have no right to insist on this, will he deal with the charges made in public by Miss LaMarsh concerning the so-called kickback system? I wonder whether he will investigate this matter and report to the house and, secondly, will he undertake to table in parliament a full report of the president's committee to which I previously referred and to which reference was made by Miss LaMarsh? Previously this report was refused the commons committee on broadcasting.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It seems to me the Leader of the Opposition has merely restated or repeated the question he asked in the first instance. If the minister wishes to reply a second time there is no objection.


Mr. Pellefier:: I wish to reiterate, Mr. Speaker, in all good faith, believe me, that I
January 15, 1969


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Also arising out of the statement by Miss LaMarsh in which she attributed to Mr. Alphonse Ouimet the allegation that Radio Canada was under the control of separatists and her further statement that she had further information to support this charge, is it the intention of the Secretary of State to determine the accuracy of this statement and will he undertake to make a report to the house?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I could quote a statement which was made in this house by Miss Lamarsh and which I heard with my own ears, in reply to a question put to her when she was Secretary of State.
She said that C.B.C. employees were not subject to any investigation as to their political opinions, unless underhanded or illegal dealings were involved and that it only mattered to know whether or not C.B.C. employees with political convictions let them show in the discharge of their duties.
This problem is still with us and will be forever, and the C.B.C. considers it greatly important. This area is kept under close scrutiny, and that policy will certainly be pursued.
With respect to the allegation whereby the C.B.C. as a whole, or any C.B.C. network for that matter, has been completely under the control of some people with a certain political ideology, I do not think there are grounds for such an accusation, and I believe it would be quite hard to prove it.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I have one further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the Secretary of State conducted an investigation and is he in a position to assure the house that the last statement he just made is the result of such an investigation, or is it on the other hand a personal opinion he holds?


André-Gilles Fortin: Mr. Speaker, referring to the answer that the Secretary of State has just given to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stanfield), may I ask him whether we can expect the same attitude regarding the allocation of time by the C.B.C. to political, non-political and other groups, since, according to what the minister has just stated, it would seem that it is entirely untrue?


Mr. Georges Valade (Sainle-Marie):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to put a question to the Secretary of State.
In view of the important post held by his predecessor, does he not consider the matter serious enough to refer it to the standing committee on broadcasting, films and assistance to the arts?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, in the first place I must make something clear about the nature of my answers this afternoon. I was away from Canada on an official mission when Miss LaMarsh's book was published and I arrived barely an hour ago.
I must base my answers on press reports which can betray what Miss LaMarsh had in mind, the truth or both, so that at the present time I am not in a position to give detailed answers, since I have not examined the document which those gentlemen have apparently perused at leisure.


Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In order that this matter may be ventilated fully and properly, I ask the minister whether he will not consider discussing with the chairman of the committee on broadcasting, films and assistance to the arts the convening of the committee so that Miss LaMarsh might be called before it and have an opportunity to say publicly what she has said in her book.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Gérard Pelletier: I think, Mr. Speaker, that the house committees could take it upon themselves-and they have proved so far that they

January 15, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry are able to do so-important and necessary initiatives in matters entrusted to them by the house.


Mr. Bell:: There's something rotten
somewhere.



FINANCE


Mr. David Lewis (York Souih):: Mr. Speaker, if I might turn from publicity for Miss LaMarsh's book to another subject, I ask the Minister of Finance a question consequent upon some questions I asked him yesterday, and an announcement made simultaneously after that by three of the largest banks, that they were increasing interest rates still further. Will the minister now reconsider his answer to me yesterday and agree to study the possibility of reinstituting some kind of control over the galloping interest rates which now seem to have no ceiling at all?


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the matter of interest rates is always under consideration by the minister.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


David Lewis: A supplementary question to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker. Can he answer simply whether he would agree to refer the question of galloping interest rates to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs? I asked him that question yesterday and he said no. I ask it of him again today because of the additional increase made simultaneously by the banks.


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, I think the question as put today is not the same as that asked yesterday. I can assure the hon. member that I will seriously consider any representations made by him.


David Lewis: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of the recognition which he granted in his white paper on price stability of the fact that interest is a factor, an ingredient in the upward pressure on prices, would the minister consider what steps his department might take in getting the banks and near banks to stop pushing interest rates up, in view of the large profits they are now making? Also, would he consider immediately establishing the joint committee on consumer affairs and referring this question to that committee?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, I am endeavouring to establish the prices and incomes commission as quickly as I can. If the hon. member's question indicates that he supports the establishment of that commission, I welcome that support.


David Lewis: Oh, come on.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he is concerned about the possible effect of the marked rise in interest rates upon the willingness of Canadians to hold investments in Canada savings bonds, and whether he fears any tendency toward liquidation in this regard. If so, has the minister any plan in mind to offset these possible effects?


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, of course I am concerned about this particular matter in that, as my hon. friend knows, in late 1968 there was a good deal of redemption of Canada savings bonds.
I should like to assure him that to date, and since the recent compaign, the encashment of Canada savings bonds has not been any greater than is normal in the circumstances.


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary Centre):: have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In order to assist in bringing down interest rates and in fact to make a major move in that direction, will the government now seriously consider dropping their medicare scheme?


Edgar John Benson: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Calgary North):: have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of what the minister said today and on other occasions with reference to interest rates, and as the banks have shown the highest profits in years, would he now reconsider setting a ceiling or at least referring the subject matter to the appropriate committee?


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Speaker, the previous parliament to this one decided to take off the interest ceiling which was imposed under the Bank Act. The government has not at present considered any reimposition of a ceiling.


Mr. Bernard Dumont (Fronienac):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance.
Is the $850,000 loan made to Brazil last week bearing interest at 9| per cent or at what other rate?
January 15, 1969



ARRANGEMENTS AT LAKEHEAD TO CONTINUE DRYING OPERATIONS

Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour but in his absence perhaps it could be considered by the Minister of Agriculture. Would the minister give consideration to opening negotiations with the unions and management at the lakehead in order to make feasible the continuous drying of damp and tough grain at the terminals?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I will take notice of the question and refer it to the Minister of Labour, although I think some progress has been made in this respect already.



EXERCISE OF DRAFT BY NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE

Mr. Steven E. Paproski (Edmonton Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare relating to the National Hockey League universal draft. I want to ask the minister whether in fact he has had discussions on this matter, which represents the rankest sort of cartel in sports, whether he has met Mr. Campbell, and whether he intends to act to put an end to athletic peonage in this country?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The question asked by the hon. member is perhaps more in the form of a statement than a question, and should normally be placed on the order paper. If there is urgency, of which I am not aware, the matter could be debated at the time of adjournment.


Steve Eugene Paproski: Mr. Speaker, I think this is a very urgent problem. If I may add a few words, sir, many of our young athletes in Canada are being called to-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member is now arguing his case. This is what should be done at this time of adjournment, if the hon. member wishes to do so.


Steve Eugene Paproski: Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker.



SHIPBUILDING


Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the
Inquiries of the Ministry Minister of Fisheries. In view of the present high unemployment rate in the Atlantic provinces shipbuilding yards, and the desire of some fishermen to build larger longliners, will the minister indicate whether it is the government's intention to reactivate the fishing vessels assistance program, and if so on what date?


Hon. Jack Davis (Minisier of Fisheries):: The program is under active consideration, Mr. Speaker. Further information will be supplied in the blue book containing the estimates of this department and of the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce.



CANADIAN FILM DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: My
question is for the Secretary of State and it arises from statements of the Montreal chapter of the Canadian Society of Cinematographers to the effect that the Canadian Film Development Corporation has done nothing since its establishment to assist the Canadian feature film industry. Will the minister undertake to make a full statement on motions outlining the government's intention in regard to this matter?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I have read the brief referred to by the hon. member. However, that brief was not addressed to the minister but to the committee on broadcasting, films and assistance to the arts, which will have to deal with it and if it deems it advisable, will have to hear the representatives of the Montreal branch of the film-makers.
As for the accusation made in this brief against the Film Development Corporation, the least one can say is that it is exaggerated, since that corporation has already taken action to promote the production of films.
Should the house be interested to hear more about this, the minister could at some time make a statement on the matter.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the brief that has been referred to by the minister, has he asked for a report on these matters from the president of the corporation, Mr. Lapalme?

January 15. 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry [Translation]


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I came across that brief only this morning on the plane. So I have not yet had an opportunity to get in touch with anybody in that respect. However, it is understood that the Canadian Film Development Corporation keeps the Secretary of State posted on its activities whenever they make important decisions.



REFUSAL OF RUSSIAN TEAM TO PLAY CANADIAN SERIES

Mr. P. M. Mahoney (Calgary Souih):: I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of widespread concern over our recent record in international athletic competition, most particularly in hockey, would the minister inform the house of the government's attitude to the refusal of Russia's national hockey team to fulfil its obligation to play an eight game series in Canada this winter with our own national team?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member is asking a question which is perhaps related in some way to the question asked previously by the hon. member for Edmonton Centre. Perhaps he might want to come back with the hon. member for Edmonton Centre for hockey night in the House of Commons.



CANADIAN FILM DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION


Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. In view of the importance which the former secretary of state gave to the establishment of a film corporation when the legislation was drafted, could the minister make a statement in the near future outlining what specific films it plans and how much money the new corporation has in fact on which to begin production?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I repeat the reply I made previously. I will be very pleased to ask for a full report from the Canadian Film Development Corporation and to make a statement since the house has shown interest in the matter.



TRANSPORT


Mr, Louis-Roland Comeau (South West Nova):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Will the transport committee resume its sittings in the mari-times, and if so when?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: This is a question which should be directed to the chairman of the committee, but certainly if I may speak as a member of the house I would hope that it would visit the maritimes as soon as possible.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


Mr. Gordon Ritchie (Dauphin):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In light of the postponement of expansion of ten of thirteen medical teaching centres in Ontario as a direct result of the withdrawal of federal support for hospital construction and similar projects in the rest of Canada, will the minister undertake to make a full policy statement outlining the government's proposals in regard to assisting medical complexes?


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is referring to the policy of the government with respect to the health resources fund, this was not a withdrawal but rather a spreading out over a further number of years. Under the legislation 15 years was provided. If all the provinces came in the fund would have been used up in five years, so we prefer to have it phased out over a longer period.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. These matters should not be debated now. My understanding of the question is that it asks whether a statement will be made on motions.



AIRPORTS


Mr. P. V. Noble (Grey-Simcoe):: I should like to put a question to the Minister of Transport. Has the government considered using the 30 square miles of crown lands at Camp Borden as a site for the proposed new international airport?
January 15, 1969


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think this question should be placed on the order paper or, if urgent, debated at the time of adjournment.



HARBOURS


Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe was gracious enough to give me 24 hours to find out something about the harbour development at Corner Brook. I can advise him that the report on phase one has been presented and accepted. It is our hope that we shall be in a position to call tenders by the spring and it is our intention, in the main estimates for 1969-70, to ask for a sum in excess of one million dollars.



EXTERNAL AID


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: My question is for the Acting Prime Minister. I suspect that if Your Honour were on the floor it is the sort of question you would probably be asking this week. Indeed, it might be asked by any of us who were with you in India last week.
May I ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the government's review of Canada's foreign policy includes a study of the possibility of increasing our activities under our external aid program?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, sir, I think I can answer that question in the affirmative. The study includes all relevant questions of foreign policy, and most certainly includes a review of both the amount and effectiveness of our external aid policies.


Stanley Howard Knowles: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether the Acting Prime Minister would request the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for External Affairs to make a full statement on this subject, when they are back with us next week?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I will bring it to their attention, though it might be better to wait until this particular question has been decided by the government in the context of the review.
Inquiries of the Ministry FINANCE



REQUEST FOR POLICY STATEMENT ON TAXATION COMMISSION REPORT

Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, on December 19 I directed a question to the Minister of Finance, and in his absence the question was taken as notice by the parliamentary secretary. It referred to the implementation of certain aspects of the Carter Commission report. Is the minister now in a position to tell us when the government will be announcing its policy in this connection?


Edgar John Benson: have indicated that it is our intention to bring in a bill dealing with this subject this spring-it will be late spring, because as all hon. members will realize, legislation in this complex field requires a great deal of careful study before presentation to the house.



USE OF COMMERCIAL DRYERS AT ELEVATOR POINTS

Mr. S. J. Korchinski (Mackenzie):: I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Several months ago I raised the question of allowing commercial dryers to dry grain at country elevator points, an innovation which would require the authority of the Board of Grain Commissioners. Is the minister now in a position to give us an assurance that this can be arranged even at this late date, bearing in mind that there are still some points from which farmers cannot make deliveries at all?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I do not recall the exact context in which the hon. member put his question, but I did indicate yesterday that I intended to get an up to date report on this situation and place it before the house very soon.



HOUSING


Mr. John Gilbert (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Transport in his capacity as minister in charge of housing. Has the task force completed its report on housing and, if so, when does the hon. gentleman expect to present it to parliament?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I still hope it will be ready later this month, as I indicated some weeks ago. So far, we are right on time and if all goes well the report

January 15, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry should be ready for presentation to parliament and the Canadian people about the end of the month.



FISHERIES


Mr. Melvin McQuaid (Cardigan):: I should like to put a question to the Minister of Fisheries and ask him when we may expect an announcement with respect to the lobster fishing regulations in district 7B. The season is rapidly approaching.


John (Jack) Davis: expect an announcement will be made in the maritimes early next week.



HARBOURS


Mr. J. M. Forrestall (Dartmouth-Halifax East):: My question is directed to the hon. member for Trinity in his dual capacity as Acting Prime Minister and Minister of Transport. Could he advise the house, in the light of the decision to make grants in aid of a harbour crossing in Vancouver and the recent rejection of a similar request from Halifax, why there has apparently been a change in government policy?


Mr. Speaker:: I suggest to the hon. member that the question as asked is argumentative.


J. Michael Forrestall: May I rephrase it, then, and
ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he can enlighten the house as to the government's present policy in connection with financial aid to crossings of national harbours?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It is as set out in my letter to Premier Smith. I understand this letter was made public. The premier sent me a telegram asking if I would be agreeable to that course.



ESTATE TAX ACT


Mr. Lincoln M. Alexander (Hamilton West):: I have a question for the Minister of Finance arising out of the question period yesterday in the course of which the minister indicated-bringing some comfort to a lot of us, 1 think-that small changes are always made to taxation bills. I was wondering whether the minister could advise us now whether, in

fact, the small changes to which he referred had some reference to the estate tax bill.


Edgar John Benson: Everything with respect to particular changes in a taxation statute cannot be included in the resolution as such, because other clauses in the act may have to be changed as well. Recently I gave an indication of some of the consequential changes which will be made in various parts of the Estate Tax Act-and I shall be pleased to send the hon. member a copy of the press release which was issued during the Christmas holiday.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: In the light of the minister's statement today and his earlier reference to the division of taxation revenue between the federal and provincial governments, I should like to ask whether this new tax bill will affect the ratio as between the federal government and the Province of Alberta bearing in mind the fact that the provincial government has abolished the estate tax in that province.


Mr. Speaker:: I wonder whether this is not the type of question which might not better be asked when the legislation is being considered?


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: With all respect to your Honour, people across this nation are wondering about the effect of this tax; it is unknown, and I believe the minister could give us a quick answer, yes or no.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he can give us any indication of the date upon which this legislation will be presented to the house.


Edgar John Benson: I indicated yesterday to the hon. gentleman that it would be within a matter of days-some time next week, I would presume.



AGRICULTURE


Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskaioon-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I will direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. Will the minister investigate the circumstances in which it is reported to me that Saskatchewan farmers are being charged 11 per cent sales tax on farm equipment being used for snow removal from municipal roads?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is making a representation to the minister. I doubt whether his representation qualifies as a question.
January 15, 19G9



NATIONAL DEFENCE


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Acting Prime Minister. In view of the very pertinent questions put to our own Prime Minister at the conference in London on the international and defence policies of Canada, may we be advised when it is anticipated that the task force on the government side will complete its review and report to the House of Commons concerning those policies?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am not in a position to give the hon. gentleman the exact date upon which reports may be made. I would be glad, however, to bring the question to the attention of the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for External Affairs, in case there is any further information which they are in a position to give.



FREIGHT RATES


Thomas Miller Bell: A question for the Minister of Transport. Has the minister any information as to the manner in which the freeze on maritime freight rates, which will lapse in a few short weeks, will be dealt with this session?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I hope to be in a position within the next few weeks to present to the house and to the country the government's position with respect to policy in connection with transportation in the Atlantic provinces. In the meantime I still hope to hear from the premiers of the Atlantic provinces with respect to suggestions they might have to make. I still feel, as I felt last year, that suggestions which come from areas directly affected are worthy of serious consideration, because the people there are in a position to know better than anyone else exactly what the problems are. Nevertheless I hope that within a few weeks I will be able to make the position of the government known, and that when I do the program will have the support of my hon. friend.


Thomas Miller Bell: A supplementary question. May I thank the minister for his very informative answer; things look good for the new year so far as his ministry is concerned. May I take it from what he says that he has given an assurance that either the freeze will be extended or that there will be new legislation? In other
Inquiries of the Ministry words, we are not going to be without some assistance in this regard, and the freeze will not be lifted before action is taken?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I would not want my hon. friend to take from what I said that the present freeze will or will not be continued. What I said was that the program will soon be introduced and I hope will meet with his general satisfaction.


J. Michael Forrestall: Mr. Speaker, may I put one further supplementary.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


J. Michael Forrestall: This is really not a laughing matter. Would the minister assure the house that his program will be in before March 1 or that some action with regard to the freeze will take place prior thereto?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I think I can give the assurance that it will be in in March.



INDUSTRY


Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Breton-East Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Forestry and Rural Development. May I ask the minister whether negotiations have been carried on with the railway unions affected with respect to the Devco early retirement plan?


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Forestry and Rural Development):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, negotiations are still going on. I think the union representatives are attending a meeting this week or next week.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


Robert Simpson: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In light of the minister's undertaking of November 19 to replace with a card system the list system of identifying Indian people who are entitled to free drugs, will the minister tell the house when the list system is going to be replaced?


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated at the time it is not a question of replacing a card system with a list system but the other way round. We are getting under

January 15, 1969
Inquiries of the Ministry way with this gradually over the next few months, and my latest information is that it is proceeding well.


Robert Simpson: A supplementary question. Will the minister assure the house-we asked for this assurance previously-that when this system has been replaced these lists will be returned to the Indian bands and not retained by the drug stores who have possession of them?


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, I will take that matter under consideration; I can see the merit in it.



RURAL DEVELOPMENT


Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Central Nova):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Following the minister's recent appearance on a speaking engagement before the Nova Scotia Federation of Agriculture, at which time he was requested L. ask the minister of rural development about the ARDA report concerning the nine northern counties of Nova Scotia, has the minister had any luck in having the minister of rural development present the report and make it public? It is a very important report which is required by the Federation of Agriculture.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forestry and Rural Development will, of course, answer for himself in this house. All I agreed to do was to advise his office that a request for the report had been made, and this has been done.


Howard Russell MacEwan: A supplementary question. I should like to ask the minister of rural development to make this very important report public.


Jean Marchand: Mr. Speaker, I will take this question under consideration and answer later on.



SHIPPING


Hon. James Richardson (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I promised to reply today to a question asked by the hon. member for South Shore.
The answer is that the increase in wharfage rates announced on January 2 this year will

come into effect on April 1, 1969 and will apply to government wharves under the administration of the Department of Transport. The new rates will therefore apply to fishermen using these wharves. However, berthing rates have not been increased for vessels under 100 feet in length; therefore, fishermen using vessels below 100 feet in length will not have to pay the increased wharfage rates.



POSSIBLE RESTRICTION IN SALE OF PRESCRIPTIONS IN COMBINATION

Mr. Max Salfsman (Waterloo):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the minister of health and welfare. Has his attention been drawn to a decision by the food and drug administration of the United States to halt the sale of six prescription drugs which combine the use of antibiotics and other drugs in fixed ratios? If so, does the minister intend to take similar action and prohibit the sale of these drugs? I can give the minister the names if he does not have them.


John Carr Munro: Mr. Speaker, I believe that this matter is presently under investigation by the food and drug directorate and I shall be happy to reply to the hon. member in further detail later.



REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT


Mr. Paul Yewchuk (Athabasca):: Mr. Speaker, my question is supplementary and is addressed to the Minister of Forestry and Rural Development. Prior to the Christmas recess the minister stated that the regional development program was being reassessed. I refer in particular to the boundaries of designated areas. I wonder whether the minister will make a statement to the house today as to when this reassessment will be completed and we can expect a report on the matter.


Jean Marchand: Not before the new law comes before the house, Mr. Speaker.



HARBOURS


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Would the Minister
January 15, 1969	COMMONS
of Transport make a statement on motions-I hope in the near future-about what has been finally decided as to the relationship between the federal government and the government of British Columbia in regard to the ownership and control regulation in connection with Roberts Bank, particularly in view of the recent act of the government of British Columbia of outlining the railroad and expropriating an additional 2,200 acres on either side of it.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to do this immediately. As my hon. friend is aware I have suggested-and I hope this will be followed through almost at once-that the report prepared by some of my officials in respect to the management and control of harbours be referred to the house committee on transportation, giving that committee the opportunity to consider the report and the implications of the various kinds of participation that are possible.
Following this the committee may care to make recommendations to the house or to the government; but whether it does or does not, I think that after the question has been aired and evidence has been given the government will then be in a position to decide what its own long range policy should be and to negotiate with the government of British Columbia within that context. Following that I will be glad to give my hon. friend a precise answer to his question.


Harold Edward Winch: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that a study will be made by the committee and a report made, will this conflict in any way with the action taken by the British Columbia government of expropriating property and outlining the railroad?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, there is no conflict whatever. What is at issue is the ultimate organization, management, administration and control of port authorities on the west coast.



GOVERNMENT ORDERS


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: the second reading and reference to
DEBATES	4329
Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act the standing committee on agriculture of Bill No. C-112, to amend the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill C-112 was introduced in the house some time ago, indeed in October, at which time there was a debate on many of its aspects, as there was also on the other credit bills that went through. However, I intend to propose a very important amendment to the bill; it will be to clause 3 and will be moved when we get into committee. Perhaps there are one or two other things I ought to say in response to some of the questions and comments that were made during the debate on the resolution stage. At that time there was a resolution stage for this type of bill.
e (3:00 p.m.)
When introducing the resolution preceding this bill I made a general statement with regard to the intent of the amendments, or most of the amendments. This will be found on pages 600 and 601 of Hansard. I do not think I need to elaborate greatly on the statement I made at that time except to give some figures which will indicate the economic advantages to farmers who are purchasing machinery under the provisions of this legislation.
From the time lending started under this act in January, 1965, until September 30 of 1968, 376 syndicates have been formed with 1,512 farmer members. They have received 487 loans for an amount of $4.1 million; and with this amount they have purchased equipment at a cost of about $6.3 million. The average loan per syndicate has been $10,800, and this represents an average loan per farmer member of $2,700. The average equipment purchased per syndicate has been about $16,800. As a result we can see that for an average debt of $2,700, plus $1,500 of his own money-that is for a total investment of $4,-200-the farmer member of these syndicates has the use of farm machinery valued at an average of $16,800. I am sure that those of us who are concerned about the costs of operating farm machinery today will recognize the savings which these syndicate members have been able to make by sharing the overhead capital and depreciation costs of their machinery with their neighbours.
I know that many farmers hesitate to make sharing arrangements because such arrangements reduce their independent use of this machinery. Experience has shown, however, that by working out proper agreements in writing in advance of the purchase of
January 15, 1969
4330	COMMONS DEBATES
Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act machinery farmers generally have been able to overcome the difficulties associated with the sharing of machinery. For example, a large proportion of the machines purchased under this program have been tractors and machines used for the tillage of land, the harvesting of grain and forage; and these generally are items where timeliness of operation is most significant to individual farmers. By purchasing, as syndicates, larger and more modem equipment than each farmer could afford individually and by adequate sharing arrangements our farmers have been able to get their seasonal work done as quickly, and in many cases more quickly, than they would have been able to do had they relied upon the smaller, older and less efficient machines they would have been able to afford as individuals.
The experience of the Farm Credit Corporation with this program has made it clear that the benefits inherent in this program could be extended to many more farmers if loans could be made for the various other purposes outlined in the bill. Other changes, such as the making of direct loans to farming co-operatives, will serve to increase the opportunity of farmers and make it easier for farmers to participate in the benefits offered under this program. When we come to a consideration of clause 3, as I mentioned, I propose to move an amendment to the bill in committee.
On October 29, as reported at page 2196 of Hansard, the hon. member for Kamloops-Cariboo (Mr. Marchand) asked that I look into the possibility of making syndicate loans available to Indians farming on reservations. The amendment which I propose to move would accomplish this purpose. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if it would be proper for me to provide a few copies of the amendment I propose to move in committee to some hon. members in the house. Of course, I will not attempt to move it until a later stage. If there are some hon. members who wish to look at the amendments I propose to move in committee I would be happy to send copies of those amendments around to them and make them available to the various parties here.


Gerald William Baldwin: May I ask a question for the sake of clarification? Will the amendment or amendments to be moved be of such a nature that the resolution preceding the bill, if such a resolution were still part of the procedure, would have to be changed? In other words are these amendments of the kind which would require changes in the resolution if

there were still a resolution stage, or do they not relate to the financial aspect of the bill.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, it would be fair to say that if a resolution were still required the change would have to be included in the resolution. Certainly, including loans to Indians on reservations will add to the financial requirement with regard to the operation and administration of the act. For this reason, it might be useful for me to read part of the amendment or amendments I wish to move, so that hon. members will know what is involved when we come to committee stage. At the same time, if the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) is questioning the propriety of our coming along with this amendment now, I do not know the answer to that. The amendment may be slightly at variance with the resolution.


Gerald William Baldwin: Is it essential at this stage to secure approval from His Excellency of any change to be made? Would it be necessary to get that approval if the resolution stage were still with us? I will not ask the minister to give an answer now, but he and the government might consider whether anything else is required, bearing in mind the provisions of the constitution and the practise which prevailed, a practise which we have now varied.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: We will take the hon. member's remarks into consideration and I appreciate his concern because this, in fact, would be a major amendment to the act. I think I ought to explain briefly to hon. members that the amendment here includes provisions that are essentially similar to those that were provided in the amendments to the Farm Credit Corporation bill, where Indians on reservations could become eligible for a loan from the Farm Credit Corporation under that act. The provisions of the amendment here are essentially the same and they will require an agreement with the minister of indian affairs for the same types of loans. Generally speaking, so far as I can determine, and bearing in mind the qualifications that exist when dealing with land that is on Indian reservations, the provisions of the Farm Machinery Syndicates Act will now be made available to Indians on the same basis as they are made available to any other citizens of Canada with the same qualifications.
I think this is a major improvement to the act and I hope hon. members of this house will support the improvements. I hope they will be supported in committee. So, considering the explanation I made at the resolution
January 15, 1969

stage and the contents of the bill, I think that is about all I should say at this stage. I hope we can expedite this matter through the committee so that the provisions of the amendments will be available to the farmers of Canada generally and, specifically, so that the Indians of Canada can also make use of the provisions of the act.
[DOT] (3:10 p.m.)


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, it is only fitting that these amendments should be brought in at this time and that this rather important form of assistance to the Canadian farming industry be brought up to date as this bill, in general, proposes to do. I am concerned, and I believe this is one of the biggest burdens carried by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Olson), that just easing the supply of credit and the requirements which farmers have to meet in order to get credit are not going to meet the urgent problem of the Canadian farmer today. As the minister himself has said in this house on many occasions during previous debates, just increasing the debt load by making credit more easily available to the farmer is not going to solve his problem. But that does not detract from the importance of the bill before us. However, we must continually remind ourselves of this fact if the farming industry, which is still basic to our economy and national needs, is to remain strong.
The situation of the farmer was impressed upon me the other day when I was talking to one of my constituents who reminded me that as late as 1954, and certainly as long ago as 1948, he was selling barley at $1.40 a bushel. Today, he is selling barley at 75 cents a bushel, yet every cost involved in the farm industry continues to rise.
I have been concerned that the emphasis of the department toward the cost-price situation in which the farmer finds himself is encouraging the development of corporate farming. I notice that one of the amendments to the act setting up the farm syndicate program specifically makes that change. With the economic pressures that we face it is inevitable that there will be a greater degree of co-operative venture and an increase in the number of corporate farms but we recognize, and I think the minister continues to recognize, the fact that the basic strength of Canadian farming has lain in the independence of the individual farmer. The reason farming efficiency has improved in Canada, perhaps to a greater degree than in any other country in the world, lies in the initiative and enterprise that centre in the family farm unit.
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Therefore, I would hope that when these amendments are passed, and other policies are enunciated by the government, the emphasis toward corporate farming will not prohibit assistance being given to the family farm unit in its struggle for survival.
Speaking of a specific case that is of concern to me because it relates to the principle of which I have just spoken, I would draw the minister's attention to a group of farmers in my constituency who, a year ago, in an attempt to increase their production efficiency decided to change from the use of dry fertilizer to gaseous fertilizer which has an ammonium nitrate base. This type of fertilizer has been used for a number of years in the United States but we have been slow to adopt its use in Canada.
To use ammonium nitrate as a fertilizer it is necessary to purchase a complete line of equipment, the cost of which is more than any single farmer can bear. In the instance of which I speak a group of farmers, not three but a sizeable number, formed a farm syndicate, and using the facilities of this legislation were able to borrow the money to buy the bulk storage tanks necessary to store this fertilizer on one of their farms. They also bought the pressure tanks that are necessary to transport the fertilizer from the storage tanks to the field applicator unit, as well as the field applicator equipment which injects the fertilizer into the soil below the surface.
This type of equipment was not specifically named in the tariff regulations. Not only was it not specifically named, but certain parts of it were not available in Canada. When clarifying the situation the Department of National Revenue finally came up with the decision that the imported equipment necessary for bulk storage was tax exempt as agricultural equipment. The department also decided that the equipment necessary to inject the fertilizer into the soil was agricultural equipment and free of tax, but decided that the equipment used to transport the fertilizer from the bulk storage tanks to the field applicator was not tax free.
We have tried to clear up this matter through a lengthy correspondence and discussions, yet the Minister of Agriculture in my opinion continues to uphold a vague interpretation of regulations that does not specifically name a particular implement since those regulations were drawn up when such equipment was not known or used. In this case, the group of farmers who formed themselves into
January 15, 1969

Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act a corporate syndicate to take advantage of this legislation and obtain the money necessary to buy the expensive equipment were required to pay customs tariff on certain parts of it.
In my opinion that decision is completely contrary to the spirit of the remarks which the minister has just made when he said the purpose of this legislation is to assist farmers to buy expensive equipment that individually they might not be able to afford. I am speaking specifically of the Red Deer fertilizer cooperative. The assistance which the legislation provides is legitimate and we in this party give basic support to the principle of it.
Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pose a few questions to the minister in the hope that he may be able to answer them at this stage of the debate, or at least before we go into committee. First of all, I again raise the question of interest rates. I know that this may not be so pertinent at the present time, but I would point out that although we can continue to provide increasing amounts of capital to our farmers, if interest rates continue to rise it will be impossible even for the most efficient farmer to continue.
It is all right to say that farmers don't sharpen their pencils well enough when they buy equipment and therefore they over purchase; but if we expect the farming industry to do what we know no other industry in Canada does, that is increase its efficiency to not only offset the rise in the cost of living which has taken place over the last 20 years but also to overcome other inflationary pressures, then it is imperative that farmers receive every possible consideration.
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
I say that because I do not think the farmers in Canada are looking for subsidies nor does the minister or anyone else involved in agriculture want that kind of agricultural policy. I trust however, that the minister is watching this very carefully. This is not a long term type of capital financing; it is short term. I believe everything possible must be done to keep the interest rate down on this type of loan. I am a little concerned over one of the new amendments relating to the security required for a loan of this type. I hope the minister has no intention of requiring other security, as referred to in the amendment, than that which was contained in the original legislation and which is provided by the equipment to be purchased with the funds that are available.

I am not sure whether new section 3(2)(b) is as clear as it was in the original act, but I trust the minister might be able to make a very clear statement in this regard. I do not believe the security required under the provisions of this act should in any way affect the situation in which the farmer finds himself in respect to the over-all matter of credit. I think the suggestion that $15,000 be the maximum amount of money allowable for each member of a syndicate is reasonable, at least for the time being, and should meet the needs of the farmers.
I have another question with regard to financing. In some of the changes introduced in this bill I note there is to be established another review board to be known as the Farm Machinery Syndicate Loan Fund. I would hope this new provision will be on the basis of a revolving fund. I notice that the minister, in outlining the success there has been in the use of the provisions of this legislation, mentioned that a total of $6.3 million has been given out in loans and that the resources established by this legislation are set at a maximum of $25 million.
I would hope that in the provision for the farm machinery syndicate loan fund the revolving fund principle will be maintained. I think it is not only imperative that this be done in so far as using the initial resources in a continuing way is concerned but also that it is imperative if interest rates are to be kept down. I should like to draw this to the attention of the minister. I believe he would agree with me on this. He has agreed with me on this principle in times past; that is, when you place back into the fund the money that is being repaid on loans already made you are developing an internal financing picture which makes the final cost of interest less vital than if you have to bring in new capital every time a new increase in money is required under the legislation. Let us recall that the original legislation set up a revolving fund. I wonder whether the minister would clarify this point and make sure that this will be the continuing situation under these changes which are being brought about in clause 5.
I note also in section 9 the words "farming corporation" have been added. I have no objection to that. Farming corporations are as legitimate as any other form of farming operation. I believe it is necessary to include them in the provisions of this bill, but let us not leave out the family farm unit. If we are to place complete emphasis on the corporate or large co-operative type of farming operation I
January 15. 1969	COMMONS
think we will defeat the very thing which has been the basis of the strength and ability of the farming industry to carry on as it has.
There are some other questions I should like to raise during the course of the discussion in committee.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: May I ask the member a question. He referred to section 9. I do not seem to be able to find that. Is the hon. member referring to Bill C-112?


Robert Norman Thompson: I am actually looking at page 5 of the bill, Mr. Minister, the bold number 6. It refers to paragraph (b) of section 9 of the act being repealed.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: It is clear now.


Robert Norman Thompson: In principle, we are happy to lend our support to this bill with the provision that these amendments are intended to strengthen not only the purpose of the legislation but also the very difficult position in which the farmers of Canada find themselves today. I would hope also that the specific question I raised in respect of adjusting some of the tariff regulations with regard to equipment available to the operator through this legislation might also be clarified favourably for the benefit of the farmers. This is a small but very vital point which I believe means a great deal in respect of the morale and ability of the farmer to carry on an effective, economic operation.


Mr. John Burton (Regina East):: 
and in Saskatchewan and Manitoba it is somewhere around $4,500. This difference in the average size of loans is not consistent with the differences that exist in the scale of farming operations in the provinces at this time.
In addition, I must also note that it is difficult to measure or determine what was the average size of the loans to the 346 syndicates which have taken advantage of the legislation. This is because some syndicates have in fact obtained more than one loan.
The question is raised, therefore, as to whether these loans are being directed to or obtained by the people who really need them. I have nothing against loans averaging some $10,000 being made to people in the Atlantic provinces. In many cases this is necessary. I must note, first of all, that there were only four loans made and that the average size was much higher than was the case in other provinces.
As has been suggested before, we must look at this legislation to see who is benefiting. We have a high average loan level in the province of Alberta. It has been suggested that this results from the fact that certain large farm operators in that province, including some near the city of Calgary, have taken considerable advantage of this legislation. They were certainly legally entitled to do so, but are these the people this legislation is intended to help? These facts do raise a question about the use of this legislation.
If Canada is to obtain the greatest possible benefit from this legislation, it should be integrated with general rehabilitation programs in rural areas, especially ARDA programs. This will require extension to encourage the use of these programs. Co-ordination with other programs and considerable attention by administrators to the whole question of administration will also be required.
As was noted during the resolution stage, interest rates are now determined by the governor in council on the basis of what may be considered economic rates. The legislation embodied in the bill before us was originally introduced in conjunction with two other measures last fall, both of which involved an increase in interest rates. This bill did pass the resolution stage on October 3 last and has been on the order paper since then. At this time, some three months later, we are finally considering second reading. The delay was not the result of any opposition from members on this side to proceeding with the bill.
January 15, 1969	COMMONS
Since this bill passed the resolution stage during late September and early October we have received a number of announcements from the government. First of all, we had an announcement by the Minister of Agriculture on November 15 in which he indicated that the Farm Credit Corporation interest rate under the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act was being amended to reflect the current interest level. This is a very nice way of saying the interest rate is being put up. The Minister of Agriculture stated that loans under this act would now carry an interest rate of 1 per cent above the average yield on Government of Canada treasury bills. He went on to state that the average loan will cost 74 per cent per annum and that the rate of interest on syndicate loans will also be established on a semi-annual basis. Judging from recent developments, I do not doubt that interest rates under this act will go up again at the next revision of the act.
The minister also announced new interest rates under the Farm Credit Act. He indicated that the rate would now be 7f per cent.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
We had a great deal of difficulty during discussion of the Farm Credit Act in obtaining any commitment or indication from the minister as to what the interest rate under the Farm Credit Act would be as a result of the legislation then before the house. On the same day the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) made an announcement in which he indicated that interest rates under the Farm Improvement Loans Act would be 73 per cent for land purchase loans and 7J per cent for all other loans. Thus, in both cases, interest rates were raised to a point where they are now over 50 per cent higher than those which had prevailed for a long period of time. No wonder the minister seemed to be rather hesitant at that time in letting the house in on the little secret as to just what the interest rates might be.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, that statement is not true. I said consistently, very firmly and positively that the rate would not be more than 1 per cent above the cost of the money to the government.


John Stratford Burton: Mr. Speaker, I agree that the minister did give that indication, but he seemed very loath to quote any figure that would indicate what the interest rate would be to the farmer. In the final analysis, this is what interests the farmer. I point out that since this bill was discussed at the resolution 29180-274
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Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act stage farm prices have remained the same and in some cases have gone down. The Canada-wide index of prices of agricultural products shows that from August to October there was a drop from 305.4 to 300.00. This is a drop of 5.4 in the index figure within a period of two months. The October figure is the most recent one available to us. This drop is larger than the normal seasonal drop that takes place at this time of the year.
At the same time farm costs have continued to increase; they increased in 1968 for the three different periods of time in which a measurement was taken. In January the index figure was 367.6. The composite index of commodities and services used by farmers, exclusive of the living component, which provides a true index figure with regard to costs of production, was 367.6 in January and by April it had risen to 388.9. In August it had risen to 394.3. Judging from past experience the August figure will probably be further revised upward on the basis of final information available to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
Thus we can already see an increase of 27 points in the farm costs index for 1968, and I emphasize that these figures are in respect of less than a year. Therefore the spiral continues-increasing farm costs, and prices staying the same or going down. This policy will certainly not provide a solution to the problems of the agricultural industry. As I indicated in previous discussions on this bill and others, we cannot in this house isolate the farm credit program from other measures and policies designed to deal with the agricultural situation. The minister on one occasion seemed to think that the problem would be dealt with in this bill. The provision of credit, without other measures to stabilize the agricultural industry and to ensure an adequate level of income to those in the industry, will result in long run harm to the industry. It will result in a basic problem in respect of the whole economy of this country.
Thus I hope the government will see its way clear in the future to taking a firmer line with regard to the interest rate structure applying to this bill and to the other agricultural measures which have been considered in the house this session. It is certainly in the interests of agriculture that this be done. The farmers of this country and other Canadians will judge the government on the basis of whether they take action on this problem.
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Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act [Translation]


Mr. C. A. Gaulhier (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, I wish first of all to congratulate the minister of Agriculture (Mr. Olson) for the new bills introduced in the house these last few days. If he keeps on, and I hope he does, it will perhaps be possible to call 1969 the year of agriculture. And I am convinced that he will manage to introduce legislation more up-to-date and concrete than that which is perhaps still prompted by petty financial interests. I am confident that the minister, as a former Social Crediter, will take into account the principles which he has been taught over the years and that he will remain within the limits of justice.
Now, Mr. Speaker, may I say that we are essentially in favour of this bill, although we would have hoped for a legislation more suited to the present requirements. Naturally, bill C-112, to amend the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act, will please the farmers who are still in a position to go into debt, because that is what those bills necessarily mean. And I always fear, Mr. Speaker, when discussing loans to industry and farmers, that we may play into the hands of financial interests instead of helping the farmer. As a matter of fact, at least I believe so, we are here first of all to protect the farmer.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)
To use finance is a very good thing, but to use it for the farmer's benefit is much better. Whenever an increase in interest rates is announced-as it has constantly happened in the last few years, because interest rates are going up at such a giddy speed that it has even become impossible to give them a fixed value in an act-the minister must be given full freedom to watch the day-to-day increase of such interest rates so as to be able to accept the lenders' as well as the financiers' decisions. Here, we are rather, I am afraid, the tools of that finance, whereas we should curb such an increase in interest rates. Such a task rests upon the government.
The consideration of those bills would therefore give us the best opportunity possible to set at last an interest rate that would really help the farmer. It is for that reason that when the rate increase was considered in this house, we spoke in favour of upholding the former rates and proposed that the difference resulting from the financiers' requirements be assumed by the government. We lost our case. Farmers will have to pay 8, 84, 9, 94 per cent and, tomorrow, 10 per cent. I say, Mr. Speaker, that we are not helping the

farmer at all; this is far from being a gift, as I was told during the Christmas holidays; I met various groups of farmers and some of them told me: We have had enough of loans, we are fed up with interest charges that whittle down our incomes more and more.
I think those farmers were absolutely right, for when we consider their budget, we realize that the average farmer-I am not thinking of the industrial farmer-cannot possibly pay 94 per cent interest. Loans are being granted to a category of citizens which is thought to be capable of borrowing still. In a few years probably, four at the very most, it will be realized that they were led to disaster, while those who even now cannot borrow, are breathing their last.
I take this opportunity to ask the minister whether he really wants to help the farmer, and do what is being done in the case of underdeveloped countries. If so, the farmer should be granted subsidies to enable him to buy agricultural equipment without having to turn to big finance and going deeper into debt. I feel we would be doing something constructive if we granted him subsidies for the purchase of his equipment, while expecting him to finance the balance. I feel that a bill in that sense would be the most logical the Minister of Agriculture could introduce, and I can assure him that if he were to do it he would remain Minister of Agriculture for many years to come. Indeed, what the farmer needs now is help and not a way of going into debt.
I should also like to ask the minister whether, for instance, he could not grant subsidies for the purchase of cooling tanks. Since last summer, many farmers in our area have purchased them. All processing plants require that the farmers have them; they really cannot do it without going into debt for five, eight or even ten years. I feel that it would be a wonderful opportunity to help the farmers by granting them, let us say, 50 per cent of the cost of those cooling tanks, so that they might make ends meet without imposing too many sacrifices on their families. Or else, those who want to borrow and can do so to purchase cooling tanks should be able to do it under the terms of that provision in the bill that applies to machinery syndicates. Several farmers have urged me to ask the minister to introduce, in the near future, a bill to help them directly by granting subsidies for the purchase of cooling tanks.
In fact, we know, and the minister and the government know it as well, that 90 per cent
January 15, 1969	COMMONS
of the farmers owe money today for the purchase of machines too expensive for their operations. I think the syndicate will alleviate that poverty to some extent and I am sure that several farmers in our area will be able to take advantage of this policy. I cannot imagine a syndicate made up of two or three foreign farmers. I rather think that it is going to be at the family level-family syndicates- and it is a good idea, in my opinion, to provide these unions with loans more within their reach. However, I say it once again, they are unhappy about the interest rates for they do not know today, nor will they know in a couple of months, what interest rates they will have to pay for those loans.
Finally, I want also to say a few words about the last amendment introduced by the Minister. Incidentally I am very satisfied with the new house procedure. The people will perhaps notice that the members speak in lesser numbers and that there are not so many lengthy speeches because we have eliminated that famous resolution stage which I have always loathed and which caused a double waste of time whenever we discussed a bill. We shall now proceed right away to the second reading and we shall thereafter refer the bill to the Committee on agriculture.
I sit on that committee, together with one of my colleagues, and I think our work will be much more effective. I also think that the waste of time will be reduced by far if matters dealing with agriculture are considered by the committee instead of being discussed in the house before two-thirds of the members who are not interested.
I congratulate the government and Parliament for adopting this new procedure. I shall now come back to the minister's amendment concerning the reserves. I believe it is high time to treat the Indians as full-fledged Canadians.
I have always deplored this attitude in the Canadian legislation; whenever the reserves were concerned, it was just as if it were a different world.
I am sure that several farmers I know who are now living on the reserve in my riding, will be glad to hear about this amendment. The Indians of all the reserves in Canada will also welcome it. They must fully participate in Canadian life and they should enjoy the same privileges as all the other Canadians.
They will probably have to put up with its drawbacks, just as the others do, because some day, the interest rates might catch up with them too. However, we hope that some 29180-274J
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Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act Minister of Finance will come and check the greed of these hawks of finance so that we may really help the Canadian citizen and improve his welfare.


Mr. W. M. Howe (Wellington-Grey):: 
Alfred Pullen Gleave: At
the outset, Mr. Speaker, let me say that this approach to lending to farmers is a good approach. I refer to syndicate or joint buying facilities. For instance, had this legislation been in effect earlier, farmers might very well have bought grain dryers under this system, enabling them to meet the present need.
As previous speakers have pointed out, this scheme is being extended to people of Indian descent so that they, too, may take advantage of loans of this type, an arrangement which will probably fit in very well with their approach to farming. Unfortunately the measure brings with it the highest interest rate in living memory for loans of this type, and this interest burden will be added to farm costs at
IMr. Howe.]
DEBATES	January 15, 1969
a time when those costs are already inordinately high.
In my view, the government should be concerned about whether the farm industry will really be able to carry the credit which is being extended to it. Take, for example, a report which appeared in the Star-Phoenix this month, in which we read that farm implement dealers in the present crop year find themselves with very high accounts receivable. One dealer says he is okay for the next few months although his banker has been warning him to "watch it". This is the type of credit position we have to consider. I do not blame the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Olson). He is locked into the government's policy, a policy under which the ceiling was removed from bank rates some time ago. We were told then that it was intended to depend on competition to control interest rates, and that this competition would probably bring those rates eventually to a level satisfactory to the people of Canada.
Well, from the seat I sit in, it looks as though the competition is not awfully strong. We are still faced with increasingly high interest rates, and those rates, as I have said, are a charge on the overall operations of farmers. I do not observe that a great deal is being done on the other side of book to deal with farm sales and farm income.
A farm machinery commission has been sitting, now, for going on two years. While the commission continues its discussions some place, somewhere, taking evidence, going around the country, Ontario farmers, as the previous speaker has just told us, are solving the problem themselves by going to England and buying tractors there at prices far cheaper than those existing in Canada. Other farmers are hiring trucks to go below the border and haul fertilizer up to Canada because they can buy it cheaper in the United States. This should be an indication of the amount of competition which exists in Canada, whether in interest rates, in sales of farm machinery or in sales of fertilizer. This is a problem with which the government must come to grips; it will have to recognize the fact that the competition which is so often talked about simply does not exist.
On the other side of the coin, provision has been made to set up a grains council in Saskatoon. This Council will be another debating society where people will sit and cogitate, dream up plans of research which may or may not be carried out, and dream up plans for promotion which may or may not be put into
January 15. 1S69	COMMONS
effect. If these things were intended to be done they could be done right now. All the machinery in terms of government already exists to meet both the situations I have mentioned as far as the farmer is concerned. Machinery already exists for the investigation of monopolies, whether in the farm machinery industry or in the fertilizer industry. On the grain selling end there are already plenty of research establishments; all they need is the money and a direction from government to get going. The Board of Grain Commissioners has facilities for dealing with the research end, and the Canadian Wheat Board is able to look after sales. All we need in both cases is for the government to say: Here is the money; here are the men; get on with the job. Such arrangements are part and parcel of the lending program. I do not think that farmers, any more than anybody else, can "borrow themselves rich"; it just does not happen. There is not much point in farmers borrowing a lot of money if the actual structure of their farming operations is not such as to carry the loans, pay the interest and leave the farmers in a good sound operating position. Therefore,
I plead with the Minister of Agriculture to give these other aspects the very thorough consideration and attention that he has given the credit program since the commencement of this session of parliament. If he will do so and bring proposals in connection therewith before the house, then the farming industry may be able to look with more confidence to the future.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)


Mr. Adrien Lambert (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few remarks about the bill now under study. I would just like to point out that the proposed changes to section 2 seem to answer the need, I think, for three people to form a farming union in the legal sense and to be recognized as such in order to raise loans so as to finance farm mechanization.
Even if it is an advantage for farmers to unite towards that end, they should not fall into the opposite excess.
Let us then admit that the small ancestral farm, with its insufficient buildings and its diversified husbandry is submarginal and inadequate because it can no longer meet the normal demands of agricultural efficiency, nor face the imperatives of a society oriented towards an aim which it becomes constantly more expensive to achieve.
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However, to assume that the family farm, as such, is doomed to a complete disappearance would seem exaggerated. In Quebec as elsewhere, we shall witness some day a transformation of sorts, a certain gathering of lands under the direction of a few partners.
But nothing proves that they will be, "in majority terms", so much more efficient than the present system of our excellent average family farms. If the State grants credit facilities for mechanization, well and good, but we must always observe a happy medium.
It would also be a good policy to have a 5 per cent ceiling on the rate of interest for these loans, because the farming industry has not got revenues as high and as stable as the other sectors of our economy.
The fact that the rate of interest is unknown for this kind of loans is a risky business. While in the agricultural and other fields, it is necessary to budget to see one's way clear, the revenues of agriculture are too low to enable the farmers to pay a high rate of interest.
Why should the same people be penalized all the time? Let bankers and financiers do their part. They have grossed over a billion dollars profits in the last year, which seems all right to me. Moreover, the price of farming machinery is too high and it is high time for the State to become aware of what is going on.
I do think that, it would be in order to add to this legislation-I beg the minister to take note of this suggestion-a group insurance plan for the payment, at the death of a member, of his share of the loan granted to the syndicate. Then, the other members would not have to bear the loss resulting from the death of one of their members.
The minister quoted figures so as to establish how many pieces of machinery have been bought by the syndicates under the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act. These statistics are interesting. However, the last edition of the annual report of the Farm Credit Corporation, clearly establishes that eastern farming differs from western farming.
In fact, in the province of Alberta in 1967, 38 syndicates borrowed $495,405 to purchase 424 machines while in Quebec 30 syndicates borrowed $247,851 to purchase 220 farm machines. It would be impossible, in the field of agriculture in Quebec to set up very large farms because it is mainly centered upon the dairy industry.
January 15, 1969
4340	COMMONS
Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act
To be economical this kind of operation, ought not to go over a certain level. Farm Economy in Canada, Volume III, page 51, bears this out.
Decreases have been recorded in all parts of Canada except in Quebec and in British Columbia. In Quebec, the number of cows has increased by nearly 2 per cent. The number of heifers has increased by 11 per cent which more than offset the decreases in all other areas. This is why I state positively that it will be difficult to expect the setting up of large communities as in the western provinces, Quebec or the Atlantic provinces.
Therefore, I wish for the farmers during the year 1969 an increase in their income which would enable them to borrow less and yet to develop normally and to survive. With better prices and better farming methods, it will certainly be possible to increase their incomes. But if those incomes are offset by borrowings at excessive interest rates, things will not improve and the Quebec agriculture will not be able to make progress according to the wishes of the people, the government, and especially the farmers themselves.

The Aciing Speaker (Mr. Bechard): Order. If the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, I will not take very long to answer some of the questions that were raised during the debate.
First, the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) outlined some of the problems his constituents were having with regard to tariffs or perhaps he also said with regard to excise tax on some equipment that they had purchased. I am not sure that this kind of problem can be, or is even intended to be, resolved by Bill C-112 that is presently before the house. The problem of the application of these taxes rests, of course, with the Minister of Finance in so far as matters such as the budget and the making of laws are concerned; and the interpretation of the laws and the collecting of moneys rest with the Minister of National Revenue and his staff. I would like to say to the hon. member that there is not a general exemption for all farmers for all things they purchase. There is a schedule of items that are exempt from taxes that my hon. friend mentioned. There is also provision for exempting certain items beyond those that are mentioned specifically when certificates are produced. My hon. friend knows that. However, I do not believe that within the


context of bill C-112 this problem can be resolved. I admire the hon. member's ingenuity in airing his grievances in this debate but I doubt whether I can be helpful if I am to adhere to the rules of relevancy, which I always attempt to do.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)


Robert Norman Thompson: May I ask a related question, Mr. Speaker. I shall try to adhere to the rules of relevancy. The money involved in the purchase of equipment is granted as a result of the provisions of the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act. That act must be interpreted by the Minister of Finance as well as by the Minister of National Revenue. Whenever there is a questionable item that may not be included under the regulations I would expect the Minister of Agriculture, who has acknowledged that he has goodwill towards farmers, to use whatever influence he has, which is considerable, with other departments of government in helping the farmers with their problems.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I am not sure of the level of influence I enjoy but I can assure my hon. friend that it is the full time occupation of the Minister of Agriculture to be helpful in all matters of concern to farmers.
The hon. member said that I had mentioned the fact that there was overcapitalization in the farm sector of our economy so far as capital costs, and so on are concerned. I was speaking of those costs as they relate to the costs of operation. I still hold to my former opinion. In many cases there is indeed overcapitalization on farms. I say that because of the size of some emits in relation to the amount of machinery that has been purchased to operate them. Costs of operation, of course, include the interest and depreciation involved in that capitalization. I make no apology for my opinion; it is my opinion. Although I do not say this situation applies generally to all farmers, it does apply to many farmers.
The hon. member also mentioned that the bill calls for such security as the corporation may require for any loan. In the old legislation the relevant wording was found in section 3(2)(b):
-such other security, including a mortgage on the farm machinery purchased with the loan, as the Corporation may require.
The present wording is not new. The legislation has been modified in order to benefit farmers. I share the hon. member's concern for the family farm and I think that the
January 15, 1969

amendments to be made to the Farm Credit Act will enhance the position of the family farm in many respects. Indeed, this bill is not particularly and specifically adapted to the family farm as a unit operating by itself. This bill deals with the syndicate and provides for a farm corporation, such as a family farm, to be part of the syndicate. It insures that there may be a co-operative use of machinery whenever the operators of the family farm join with other farm operators, if that is beneficial to them.
The hon. member for Regina East (Mr. Burton) did not like the idea that the Minister of Agriculture through the Farm Credit Corporation would have to enter into agreements with the minister responsible for Indian affairs in order that use could be made of some provisions of this legislation. The answer is that the Minister of Agriculture, as well as the Farm Credit Corporation, must abide by legal requirements respecting security, particularly when public funds are involved, as they are here. Therefore, we must bear in mind the legality of the security we take, and that is the reason for the wording of the bill. That is also why similar wording was included in the amendments to the Farm Credit Act.
Questioning whether those who most need the provisions of the legislation would benefit by them, the hon. member cited some cases where in or around Calgary some successful farmers had availed themselves of the provisions of the Farm Credit Act. Really, the hon. member answered his own question, since those people had a complete legal right to avail themselves of the act. I want to say clearly that we must not set up legislation which will discriminate against successful farmers. Indeed, we intend that the legislation we introduce will assist in making all farmers more successful. Therefore I really could not follow the hon. member's argument.
I think I answered his query about why the Minister of Agriculture was reluctant to say what interest rates with respect to farm loans would be. I said all through the debate that took place last fall that the interest rate would be no more than 1 per cent above the cost of the money to the government. That is what it was, and I said that very positively. Anyone who took the trouble to learn what the current interest rate was at that time would have known that this was so. I also said clearly and positively that the rate would be adjusted from time to time, and "time to time" has worked out to mean every six months.
DEBATES	4341
Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act
The hon. member quoted statistics and did something I did when I was in opposition. He took them out of context in order to make his argument more plausible. It is not enlightening to others when one quotes statistics taken from one month to another. If the hon. member had wanted to be fair, not only to this government but to farmers generally, he would have used statistics covering a much wider range. Although I do not have the relevant document in front of me, I believe he said that the index of farm receipts was at 305 for September and had decreased to about 300 for October. He neglected to mention that that index was some 3 points higher than for the same period last year. That is what happens when you select your statistics and take them over a short space of time. To be fair, I think we ought to see what the total cash receipts were for farmers. I have in front of me a document which gives that information for the years 1963 to 1968. 1 think you must take these averages over a broader period in order for them to be meaningful. Total cash receipts for the first half of each year from 1963 until 1968 were as follows. For the first half of 1963 farm cash receipts-that is total cash receipts-were $1,443 billion. For 1964 they were $1.6 billion. For 1965 they were $1.7 billion. For 1966 they were $1.9 billion and for 1967 they were $2.1 billion. You can see the steady increase ever since this party took over the reins of government in-


Mr. Lambert (Edmonton West):: That is 25 per cent inflation.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: The average for the first six months of all those years is, therefore, $1,793 billion with respect to total farm receipts. For the first six months of those years total farm receipts were $1,793 billion, and in 1968 the figure was $2.1 billion. Significant increases were shown all the way, and indeed this includes the latest year.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: May I ask a
question of the minister?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Certainly.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Are these in constant dollars, or do these reflect the 25 per cent devaluation in the purchasing power of the dollar?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: There we go again, Mr. Speaker, with these statistics that don't mean anything. The hon. member mentions a 25 per
4342	COMMONS
Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act cent devalued dollar. I would ask between what years?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Between 1963 and 1968.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: These are current dollars, Mr. Speaker, but even if you take the figure for the first half of 1963 at $1.4 billion, which happened to be the last part of the reign of my hon. friend's government, and then take the figure for the first half of 1968 at $2.1 billion you will find there is a significant increase over and above the 25 per cent change in the value of the dollar, if that percentage is correct and I question that it is. That is the problem when you select figures and just average them. I suggest to the hon. member for Regina East that he ought to be fair with these selective statistics. We also have ways and means of looking at these statistics.
The hon. member for Wellington-Grey (Mr. Howe) asked why this amendment qualifying Indians on reservations for the provisions of the legislation was not introduced previously.
I do not know what the answer is. I suppose we could also ask why Indian farmers were not included in the F.C.C. legislation when it was introduced in 1959 and 1960. I do not know why, but when we see these weaknesses in the act we try to correct them as rapidly as we can. Perhaps we could ask why this amendment was not introduced in 1964 and 1965, but I am grateful for the opportunity to bring it in now and I think it will receive general support from members of the house.
The hon. member also raised the question of farmers importing machinery directly from England. He asked us to investigate the reasons for the wide difference in the price the farmers were paying for exactly the same type of tractor on sale in England and in Canada, and how farmers could buy a tractor in England, pay the transportation costs and bring it to Canada at a total price substantially less than the price of the same tractor on sale in Canada. We are investigating this matter, Mr. Speaker, and we hope that some publicity will be given the results of the investigation, providing the figures that we have seen quoted in the newspapers are correct. If those figures are substantiated, then of course there is justification for some action to be taken to ensure that this equipment is distributed through the regular machinery distribution channels in Canada at prices in line with the prices in England.
[Mr. Olson.)
DEBATES	January 15, 1989
The hon. member for Saskatoon-Biggar (Mr. Gleave) asked why some grain dryers had not been purchased under the Farm Syndicate Loans Act. Several weeks ago I was informed of the exact number of dryers bought under the provisions of the act-


Alfred Pullen Gleave: Mr. Speaker, the minister may not have heard me correctly. I did not question why they were not bought. I said that under this act they probably could be purchased, and that its provisions would be useful for that purpose.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I thank the hon. member for clarifying that. I agree with him that not only is the legislation useful for that purpose but has been used for that purpose.
The hon. member for Roberval (Mr. Gauthier) asked whether or not bulk tanks for milk could be purchased under the provisions of the act. If more than one farmer could use a bulk tank co-operatively, then I see no reason why the legislation's provisions would not cover such a purchase. However, this is a piece of equipment that each individual dairy farmer requires on his own farm for his own use. In a case where more than one farmer was going to make use of a single bulk tank, I see no reason why it could not be bought under the provisions of this act. In many cases, I do not think it would be a practical thing to do.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank hon. members for their contributions to the debate. We shall try to have the answers for many of the other questions raised when the clause by clause consideration of the bill is undertaken in the Standing Committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on agriculture.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: the second reading and reference to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs of Bill C-138, to amend the Bretton Woods Agreements Act and the Currency, Mint and Exchange Fund Act.


Mr. H. E. Gray (Parliamentary Secretary to Minisier of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the house will recall that I attempted to deal with the nature and background of this bill in some
January 15, 1969

detail during the debate on its resolution stage last December 3. Therefore, I propose to speak relatively briefly at this time, and it is my hope that the house may wish to expedite second reading so that the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs can begin at an early date its examination of the detailed provisions of the bill and the special drawing rights scheme.
As I pointed out in my earlier remarks the proposals in the bill represent a highly negotiated package, the details of which were negotiated over a protracted period of time and agreed to by an overwhelming majority of the International Monetary Fund's one hundred-odd member governments. Therefore the changes in the articles of agreement of the International Monetary Fund which it proposes constitute what is in effect a single amendment and they should, I think, be looked upon in that way.
The bill furthermore provides for a change in the Currency, Mint and Exchange Fund Act to provide authority for special drawing rights obtained by Canada to be held in the exchange fund account. It is visualized that any special drawing rights, or S.D.R.'s as I will refer to them from now on, thus held by Canada would be included in Canada's official reserves.
The more general point, Mr. Speaker, is that the S.D.R. proposal represents another step forward in the evolutionary development of the international monetary system since the Second World War to which I referred when I spoke on December 3 last. Despite the many critcisms of the system which seem to be in vogue today, one could well be impressed with the system's ability to cope with the major unforeseen developments of recent years in ways which do not impair national or international prosperity. This recent performance may be contrasted with the experience of the past when international monetary developments had much more severe consequences.
There is no denying that the spirit of international monetary co-operation and co-ordination, which has marked the postwar period and which is embodied in the International Monetary Fund, has made possible a rate of growth of world trade and a reduction in barriers to trade which have few if any parallels in history. Canada is a major trading nation and our prosperity depends on world trade to a degree equaled by few other countries in the world today.
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We have been a prime beneficiary of this rapid growth of world trade and have every interest in all measures which can facilitate the continued growth of world trade in the future. This is why Canada has participated actively in the liquidity discussions of recent years and why Canada has given its active support to the special drawing rights proposal.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
It would be wrong to suggest, however, that the S.D.R. proposal is more than one step, though a large step, in the process of evolution of the international monetary system. It is not a panacea. There are pressing problems remaining in the international payments scene which cannot be solved solely by the deliberate and orderly creation of international reserves. These problems will need to be solved if short term crises, of which there have been several in the past year or so, are to be avoided. Most of these problems stem from the inadequate operation of the adjustment process. A number of major countries have experienced deficits or surpluses of a persistent and intractable nature in their balance of payments, and these have to be corrected. Hon. members will have noted that this is recognized in the proposed amendment which provides that activation of the S.D.R. scheme is contingent upon the attainment of a better balance of payments equilibrium and the likelihood of a better working of the adjustment process in the future. Under these circumstances, however, the existence of the S.D.R. scheme can ensure that the future growth of trade and payments will not be impeded by a lack of liquid reserves in the system.
The amendment to the articles of agreement of the International Monetary Fund will not come into force until it has been approved and accepted by three fifths of the International Monetary Fund's membership holding at least 80 per cent of the total votes. As of December 31, 1968, 27 member governments with 47.22 per cent of the total votes had approved the amendment. As in the case of Canada, a number of other countries are currently well advanced with the legislative action needed before they can give their approval. I am confident the house would wish the action on this bill to be completed in time for Canada to be among those countries whose approval brings the amendment into effect. I therefore urge the house to give prompt second reading to this very important bill.
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January 15, 1969
Finance


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. parliamentary secretary said, the house considered the resolution on this bill on December 3. Frankly, under the new procedure, one would almost think this stage of debate is superfluous. Therefore I do not think we will take too long. However, having had occasion to read what I said on December 3 I would not change anything I said at that time. I read what the parliamentary secretary said and what the hon. member for Regina East (Mr. Burton) said on that occasion also.
At this stage, I should like frankly to emphasize certain aspects of what was said at the time. The parliamentary secretary said that this is a very important bill. I agree with him entirely. After all, Canada is a country which depends a great deal upon its exports, more so perhaps than most countries of the world. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that there be a smooth working of the International Monetary Fund for the benefit of Canada's economic well-being. Any disruption in the international monetary system has an immediate effect on Canada.
The other day the minister was almost cavalier in his, shall we say, disdainful or detached interest in the crisis related to the franc, the mark and the pound. This may have been said in the house or in that other medium of parliamentary administration, television, but if I remember correctly the minister said, "Oh, well, that does not really affect us; it is a crisis over in Europe." As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) just pointed out to me, we are only about five hours away from Europe by air. The crisis is just as much on our doorstep when it is over in Europe as it would be if it involved the dollar. Therefore, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) was all wet when he said this is merely a crisis over in Europe.


Mr. Lind:: Can we do much about it?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Yes; we could do quite a bit about it. There is no such thing as saying, "Well, it does not really affect us; it is over in Europe." There is a great deal we can do. There is a great deal that can be done right within our own economy in keeping our house in order. The hon. member will immediately recognize there is one fundamental basic principle that applies to the whole of the international monetary relations; that is confidence in currency. How is confidence lost? It is lost by reason of the fact that the country in question is mismanaging its affairs and is letting inflation run ram-

pant. We have seen the effect of this. We have seen what has happened in Britain and we have seen what has happened right here in Canada. We will see it again unless the Minister of Finance pulls up his socks in so far as financial administration is concerned.
Some time ago the Minister of Finance had the temerity to appear on television and say he recognized his problems and had the solutions. But since that time, and concurrent with that time, the bond market has been going down and down and the interest rates have been going up.


An hon. Member:: All around the world.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: But even in Canada. Why does the minister say he sees the problem and has solved it when he had not seen it and did not even know it. Then, he turns around and exhorts the provinces to cut back on their budgets and expenses and does the same thing with the municipalities. He then has the gall to come into this house and say that our expenses next year will be $900 million higher than last year. That is the reason I suggest to hon. members that we in Canada are in a very vulnerable position on two counts; first of all, because of our high degree of dependence on international trade. If anything happens in respect of world currencies in Britain, France or anywhere and we have import surcharges and restrictions on trade of course we will be hard hit.
Secondly, if our position is not credible, if there is a lack of confidence in the dollar because the government cannot be believed, then we become all the more vulnerable. Frankly, that is the position in which we find ourselves today. Since we last debated this subject one event has happened which I think might be of assistance to the minister. I referred to this in my remarks. I was glad to see an agreement reached by the United States and Canada to remove the ceiling on United States dollar holdings by Canada. I hope this will allow the government to better manage Canada's fiscal affairs, at least in part. But the special drawing rights that are provided in this bill are but a palliative which does not really go to the root of the trouble. I suppose the piling up of one line of reserves may help for a time to shore up confidence in a particular currency or currencies but, as I said before, essentially the real strength of a currency lies in the confidence in this currency in the world market. I pointed out that the degree of confidence is a reflection on the efficiency and skill in the management of a country's affairs.
January 15, 1969

[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
This is particularly significant when you have mounting inflation as a result of unrestricted government expenditure. We heard the outgoing President of the United States say yesterday that the greatest problem facing that country is inflation. This was not said six months ago, and does not appear to have been recognized. Even the 10 per cent surcharge on income tax appears to have been too little and too late. The United States faces additional factors which lead to inflation but which are not applicable to Canada. That country suffers the terrible expense of a war, and I am not going to refer to the justification or otherwise of that expense, but it does exist. No amount of wishful thinking will wipe that away, and that is one of the chief sources of inflation. The United States also has some very expensive external aid programs which represent a drain on the economy. These expenses under the present circumstances, combined with other factors, may in actual fact prove to be more than that economy can support. This is something else we should consider in determining the level of our external aid.
Having regard to interest rates in this country and their result, let me refer to what was said during this debate on December 3 or shortly thereafter. At that time I was considering what the money market thought about Canada's increasing dependence on the short term market. What were the rates for treasury bills at that time? Let us take a look at the last report of the Bank of Canada and the charts which appear at page 9. We will see that the yield on 182 day bills was not the highest it had ever been, but it was very high. This was immediately after the dollar crisis last spring. The yield was much higher than it was at the beginning of December. The rate went up on 90 day bills to 6.40 per cent from 6.29 per cent on January 7. On 182 day bills the rate went up as high as 6.75 per cent.
Let us look at the interest rate on government loans. The rate is up to 7.30, the highest that I think anybody who is present in this house can ever remember. In considering the terminal dates of these various bonds, we must ask ourselves where these higher rates exist. The answer indicates what the small investor thinks about the long term obligations of the government of Canada at the present rate of inflation. Frankly, they are not worth a great deal. Bonds maturing in 1983 are trading on the market today at $70. This
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is a terrible reflection on the credit position of this country. These things are only incidental, but they show how important it is that the internal financial matters of this country be handled properly. They should be managed in such a way that others will have confidence in our currency. This confidence is the greatest asset we have in respect of maintaining the value of the Canadian dollar on the international market.
The present bill is lengthy and technical. I make no pretense at this time of being able to find my way through it, but under the new procedures I look forward to the sessions of the committee on finance, trade and economic affairs when we will have officials of the department and the Bank of Canada before us to help us understand it. I invite not only the members of the committee but all hon. members to attend these sessions in order to acquaint themselves with what is happening in the international market and how Canada may be affected by changes in the international monetary position.
The parliamentary secretary has indicated that this measure provides for new reserve assets to supplement gold and reserve currencies in the participating countries' foreign exchange reserves as well as pertinent and related administrative changes in the structure of the International Monetary Fund. It is my understanding that special drawing rights were not to be of a permanent nature. I hope we can get some clarification in this regard.
As I read the bill, participating countries will only be able to avail themselves of these special drawing rights for relatively short periods of time to deal with emergencies. This is not a procedure through which they may deposit funds in special accounts and draw cheques on them. These participating countries will use these special drawing rights under their normal reserves. These reserves will exist, but I suggest they must be clearly identified. A country's foreign exchange reserves should not be lumped together as a number of billions of dollars, or whatever the currency may be. A clear indication should be given as to which are gold reserves and which are other reserve currencies for the purpose of special drawing rights. I may be overly sensitive in this regard and perhaps the parliamentary secretary or the officials of the department will be able to clarify this point, but it would be disastrous if special drawing rights were directly related to the other reserves held by a country in its foreign exchange account without a clear and distinct identification.

January 15, 19S3
Finance
Let me suggest at this time that not only are we going to ask for full explanations regarding these changes and how they will affect the situation, we are going to ask for the views of the financial authorities and experts who from time to time have expressed the opinion that a change from a fixed exchange system would be of advantage to Canada. I do not know to what extent they may feel this would be of advantage to the world, but these voices, although relatively few, have been heard.
We have gone through several monetary crises within the last three or four years. We have experienced these crises regularly and with increasing rapidity and intensity within the past two years.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)
These crises show that the fixed exchange system under which we are operating, based on the U.S. dollar and the pound sterling, has some weaknesses. We know there are weaknesses. We know that these weaknesses become apparent with increasing frequency and intensity. Therefore it behoves us to look for something better. I say to hon. members that we should be prepared now to listen to these people; to the president of the Royal Bank of Canada, for example. It was an odd thing that the late member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands was against the banks in such a deadly fashion. What a strange couple Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Cameron made, both advocating a free floating dollar.


David Lewis: They will never meet again in the same place.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: I do not
know where Mr. Cameron is, but I do not think the hon. member suggests he is in a place that is unattainable. There are others to whom the committee should now listen, the economists, the economic advisers to the Bank of Nova Scotia and some of the financial writers, so that the credibility of the case for flexibility may be judged. I suggest that when asking them to appear before us the burden of proving what they advocate, whether it is a free floating dollar or a floating peg, to use the jargon of the financial market-


David Lewis: Crawling peg.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: -is better than the fixed exchange should be upon them. The burden of proof will have to be on them to show that not only that will it benefit Canada but the whole of the international

monetary market and financial relationships the world over. It would be rather ridiculous if we simply said: We will put ourselves on a tight, little, safe island and to blazes with the rest.
It may be that they are able to demonstrate the advantages of the system they advocate. I for one would invite some of them to be prepared to come before the committee and explain just what they propose and what advantages they foresee not only for Canada but for the whole of the operations of the international monetary sytem.
I agree that after some of our colleagues have spoken the house should be prepared to accept the motion and the bill should be sent to committee after second reading.


David Lewis: Mr. Speaker, I rise to take part in this debate as a citizen who for many years has attempted to understand the international monetary system and has become increasingly impatient with the morass which it in fact is. One of the points I want to make immediately was emphasized by the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert) who preceded me. Everyone keeps talking about a currency needing confidence. My hon. friend says that the position of a currency in the international market depends upon the skill and competence with which governments run their countries. I say to him, horse feathers. That is true in some cases, but in many cases the position in the international market of the currency of a country is unrelated in any way whatever to the internal state of the economy of that country. This is the crushing fact and the undesirable consequence of an international monetary system that is really a strait-jacket to progress in the world. In what kind of economic, internal difficulties were Canada, the United States and France when their currencies were in some difficulty? None.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Inflation.


David Lewis: My hon. friend says "inflation". Inflation my aunt, in this particular context. The inflationary pressures in these countries were not any greater than those in many other countries whose currencies were not in any difficulty. In fact, the inflationary pressures in the countries I have named were considerably less than those in many other countries which had no currency difficulties. This confidence about which every international monetary spokesman makes long speeches and homilies to the world is a shibboleth. They say we must have confidence in
January 15, 1969

our currency. Who, in heaven's name, destroys that confidence except the people who want to destroy it? The fact is that there is a constant kind of vicious circle in this international monetary morass for which speculators and thoughtless governments are responsible. When they think a currency may be in some difficulty, they try to make money out of it; and by trying to make money out of it they are making certain the currency will be in difficulty. The more you do that, the greater is the difficulty for the currency. In many cases this difficulty has no relation whatever to the economic situation of the country. I do not say this applies in all cases.


An hon. Member:: Why is the mark so high?


David Lewis: I think the mark is high partly because of the particular export situation of Germany and partly because somebody is playing the mark against the franc. It is so high, I believe, partly because of an international monetary situation which does not permit of the kind of quick adjustment by some international monetary agency which would avoid these ups and downs or at least diminish them.
The point I am making is that there is a mythology about the international monetary system which tries to say that if a currency goes up it is because a government or country has handled its affairs well, and if it goes down somebody has handled the affairs badly. Not in all cases is that true; in fact, in many cases it is not true at all. We ought to get rid of this mythology and approach international monetary problems on a more rational basis.
What is the basis on which we should approach these problems? As a layman who claims no great expertise in the subject, I suggest that one of the reasons the Bretton Woods arrangements have fallen apart in some instances is that at the time they were adopted we talked about going off the gold standard when in fact we did not. In fact, we have always been on the gold standard. Through the Bretton Woods arrangements we have been on the gold standard in an indirect, rather than a direct, way. We have in fact been tied to the price of gold, the reserves of gold and the reserves of dollars related to gold, as well as to the pound sterling, but mainly to the reserves of dollars.
Therefore instead of the Bretton Woods arrangements actually freeing international trade and exchange, they continued in a modified form precisely the same kind of international strait-jacket that the gold standard represented years ago. Some of us in my
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party said 25 years ago that the Bretton Woods arrangements would not work in the long run. There is a simple logic in the situation, I suggest, even though I claim no expertise in the subject. All that these schemes represent, whether it be the Bretton Woods arrangements or the amendments we now have before us, is a certain amount in an international reserve pool. At some point in the future, as the international economy grows, as international trade grows and as international payments increase, the reserves which are set up will be found to be inadequate. You cannot provide for a continuing international fluidity, for a continuing adequacy of international reserves to deal with increasing international trade if at any time you set a limit on those total reserves across the world.
This was done under the Bretton Woods arrangements. It will be done under the S.D.R.'s because there will be a total amount of S.D.R.'s available in addition to the reserves.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
One of the points I want to emphasize is that the speculators in the world are, to a very large extent, responsible for the trouble into which the currencies get. I do not know what the solution is to dealing with speculators but I want to say a word about the problem. When I say speculators, I am not referring merely to the gnomes of Zurich but I am also referring to all the large corporations the western world over which have officers especially assigned to the task of watching the international money market. They buy and sell international currency in order to protect the welfare of the corporation without the slightest thought for the welfare of the country in which they operate and without the slightest thought for the welfare of the world in which they trade. These are the speculators to whom I refer. We have them in Canada; they have them in the United States, in London, in Paris, in Bonn, in Hamburg and in every other western country and centre. The vice presidents, managers or others are given the specific task of playing the international money market, having in mind only the protection of the interests of their corporations without regard for what that may do to the general economy, to international trade, to international exchange or to the balance of payments. Our concept of "free enterprise" gives them the right in Canada, in the United States and anywhere else to play this game. It

January 15, 1963
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is a game which they play at the expense of the welfare of people throughout the world, not only of people in the countries in which they have their headquarters.
I submit that this is the basic problem. I do not deny that this is my philosophy of opposition to the uncontrolled capitalism which permits this kind of game by large corporations, national and multinational, despite its adverse effect on international trade and international welfare. In some way it should be controlled by some authority, either national or supranational.
I object to the approach which permits these corporations to play havoc with currencies and with economic situations in various countries. Every time people say that a country has lost the confidence of the international money market they mean that government expenditures in social welfare should be reduced. I hope my friend, the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert), who sits very close to me and is bigger and stronger than I am will not get too violent when I suggest to him that when he says we have to be worried about the confidence of the international money market, that we have to put our house in order, that we have to cut public expenditures, every time he makes these little homilies about countries in difficulty pulling in their horns and straightening out their affairs so as to revive confidence in their currency, he is speaking about nothing else than that the standard of living of the people be reduced. What these people mean is that the expenditures in social welfare and in social security measures should be curtailed and that the investment in new jobs should be reduced. That is what they are talking about all the time, and that is what they mean when they talk about confidence in the money market and setting one's house in order. I am opposed to that. That is what France had to do under the present international monetary scheme, and that is what Great Britain had to do because of its currency difficulties. Instead of being able to deal with their internal economy in terms of the welfare of the people, they were forced by international speculators to tighten their belts, which meant the belts of the ordinary workers in Great Britain and France. This is the way I look at the international monetary system, and I make no apology for it. I am not interested in this blessed mythology, this mystery, this secretiveness of the workings of the international money market.
IMr. Lewis.]
Perhaps God has given me at least a partially sufficient intelligence to understand how these things operate and I have studied the subject to some extent. But I am not interested in the mechanics of how the people are rooked; I am interested in the fact that they are being rooked by an international system that pays no attention to and is not necessarily a reflection of the economic soundness of a country and the economic objectives of a country. It can easily become the victim of international currency manipulation despite the state of its economy, as has been shown.
My only criticism of the Canadian authorities-and I put it that way because I do not think it is the fault of the minister-is directed at the total Ministry of Finance and at the Bank of Canada, both of which have very competent, if orthodox, men heading them. I appeal to our braintrust in the financial world and in the international monetary world to become a little less orthodox and to look at these problems more in terms of human welfare and less in terms of the mechanism that is involved.
It is for these reasons that we in our party believe that the special drawing rights are a useful addition to the total pool of international reserves; there is no doubt about it. But I venture to suggest they will only be a palliative for a relatively short time.
The suggestions that I have seen in print as to the size of the special drawing rights do not lead me to think that the time will be very long. The addition to the international pool of reserves of what is now proposed does not seem to me in the total picture to be adequate even now. I think there are some other things that we and our financial experts in Ottawa ought to consider. I would be surprised if they have not done so already, but I would ask them to do so with greater readiness. I would ask them to improvise, to insist and to give some leadership on these issues.
The first thing which we should consider is a change in the mentality concerning the fixed exchange rate. The hon. member for Edmonton West made a quite legitimate remark regarding the late hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands who proposed free or flexible exchange rates. He said that now Mr. McLaughlin, the president of the Royal Bank of Canada makes the same proposal, and what strange bedfellows they are. I think the significant fact is that the hon. member for Edmonton West was not prepared to accept the word of my late
January 15, 1969

friend, but the moment the president of the Royal Bank of Canada and the economic adviser to the Bank of Nova Scotia say the same thing the proposal becomes feasible, practical and sensible. I say that you do not have to be a genius to see that when there is a system of fixed exchange rates automatically a strait-jacket is put round the world and the speculators have a point at which to aim.
If the speculators know that the Canadian dollar can only go one per cent up or down from 921 cents, then they know the point at which they can make it uncomfortable for the Canadian dollar. The same thing is true for every other currency on a fixed rate under the International Monetary Fund when permission is given to go up or down within two per cent, one per cent above or one per cent below, without breaking the commitment to the International Monetary Fund. It has always been obvious to me, not only in recent years but over the years that I have studied economics and finance, that this is the kind of rigidity that a growing international economy cannot tolerate; that there should be more manoeuvrability in the rate at which the currency sells in terms of other currencies. This manoeuvrability can then reflect the actual market situation and be responsive to the international trade of commodities and to the invisible trade among countries rather than responsive to some speculative behaviour of corporations and gnomes.
If, for the time being, it is not possible to immediately establish freedom in exchange rates across the industrial world, then you should start with what is called a floating or a crawling peg; in other words in area of, say, five per cent above or below the rate set. This leaves a relatively large area within which a currency can move in terms of other currencies. Speculators would then have much greater difficulty in feeling certain about their speculations, their gambling, because it would then be possible for authorities inside a country to take steps which speculators might not like and by which they would be punished when they began to press a particular currency.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
When we have established either a wholly free exchange system across the world, or a partially free system of exchange, there will, of course, need to be measures to prevent national governments manipulating the rates for their currencies for purely selfish national reasons at the expense of other nations.
Finance
However, I think there ought to be international measures available for the punishment of speculators, and that the International Monetary Fund or some such international agency should be given authority to watch the situation, recommend preventive measures and obtain some reaction from the country affected when speculators are "rooking" the people of the world.
To give an example. When the United States dollar was under pressure some months ago and the price of gold was going up as a result of speculation, the United States government, had it possessed the courage and had the International Monetary Fund been a party to such action, could have punished all the speculators within 24 hours- and it could do so tomorrow-by dumping two or three billion dollars worth of gold on the market. Then, the speculators who intended to make a killing would have found themselves losing a great deal of money. Possibly, having lost a great deal of money once or twice in the course of their manipulations, they would begin to take a different attitude. Instead of being the victims of speculators, either of Zurich or of the international corporations of the western world, governments should act in such a way as to make it painful for speculators to upset, distort and dislocate the economy of the world at the expense of the welfare of its people.
Utopian though this may sound, and Utopian though it is, I want to suggest that it is time we began thinking about an international central bank. One of our basic problems today is that we lack any international agency with the authority to deal with the flow and volume of international currencies in the way in which the Bank of Canada is able to deal with the volume and total amount of money circulating internally in this country. It will take years, maybe decades, before we get to it, but we ought to be thinking now in terms of a genuine international community in this field. We ought to be thinking of setting up an international central bank to which the sovereignty of individual nations would, for this purpose, be given. The bank would have the power and the means to regulate the amount of international currency in given situations and to make the international money market respond quickly to changes in the balance of payments situation and the international trade pattern.
Finally, in the meantime, contrary to what has been suggested by the hon. member for Edmonton West I believe Canada ought to
43S0

January 15, 1969
Finance
abandon its fixed exchange rate and adopt a completely floating exchange rate. Let me say to the hon. member for Edmonton West that unless I am mistaken-and I may well be- this would not hurt anybody. With whom is Canada competing? Who are we helping by adopting a pegged exchange rate? What is it we are helping to do? All that would happen if we removed the exchange peg from the Canadian dollar would be that the reserves we must now hold could be used by someone else, by some other country which might need them. The total amount of the international reserves would remain unchanged. Instead of worrying about keeping Canada's reserves at a certain level to back our pegged dollar, we could allow the dollar to reach its own level in line with the condition of the market and international trade flow. We need no longer worry about reserves, except, of course, within certain limits. No country would want to be entirely without some reserves for the support of its currency.
Action along these lines would not only protect our own situation in the international market but it would serve as an example to other countries to get away from the orthodox deification of certain rates being set down and adhered to as though they were symbols of some kind of religion whereas in reality they are part, as I have indicated, of some kind of straitjacket which is of no value to the people of the world and which is of value only to the large corporations and speculators.
No doubt this bill will go to the committee and emerge with whatever improvements the committee can make. The additional reserves will become available and for a short time this exercise will reduce the possibility of international crises occurring on one form or another, for a short time. But, Mr. Speaker, the point of my contention-and this is why I have added my voice to what was said by members of this party on December 3-is that as an important country within the I.M.F., and as an important industrial nation despite the size of our population, we should not be satisfied with these steps. We should look into the possibility of a floating exchange rate and begin to discuss the immediate implementation of a crawling or floating peg.
We should look into the possibility of some international control of the evil behaviour of speculators to the detriment of the people of the world, because only by this total approach can the problem be seriously tackled by the international authorities.


Mr, Henri Laiulippe (Compion):: Mr. Speaker, I would feel guilty if I did not say a few words on the Bretton Woods Agreements and on the bill under consideration now.
While that question, and that of the International Bank are very complicated, and though I am not entirely familiar with them, I would ask the honourable members to forgive me if I err; I was caught off guard and did not have time to really look into the problem. I know however that the International Bank and the Bretton Woods Agreements, like all other national or international banks, are institutions that throw economy off balance instead of steadying it.
Agreements entered into by international banks are governed by almost identical regulations, except that the International Bank, grants no credit, while in the national banks, credit is created with a stroke of a pen.
The International Bank borrows capital from great financial institutions, trust companies, at the current rate of interest, just like all other national institutions that borrow capital on an interest basis. Now the International Bank's rates of interests, like those of the National Bank, are outrageous and this creates an intolerable, a preposterous international situation, for like the national institutions, existing banks are making loans. They lend the initial amount but not the interest, yet they require repayment of it. That is why, on the international front, debts are being repudiated. It happened in France, in England and in many other countries and it will happen again.
Remissions of debts are seen everywhere. It is done at the national level and soon we will see it at the international level. When it becomes impossible to pay back a loan and to pay the interest which was never part of the loan, then remissions of debts are granted.
International agreements such as the Bretton Woods Agreement and many others, are not worth much for the people of the world, Canada or other countries because since we are subject to the same regulations, the same conditions, the same consequences we do not manage to maintain an international or national balance. This is one reason for international deficits as well as national and international bankruptcies.
Mr. Speaker, our financial and economic organization is improperly constituted. The basis of the system is wrong. It must be reformed and if international institutions,
January 15, 1969

Finance
people of the international community, responsible members of government, do not assume their responsibilities, within a few months, a few years, we shall experience a situation even worse than the one prevailing now.
In fact, the French problem is not settled yet it is simply a poultice on a wooden leg and many other countries find themselves in the same situation.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)
The situation for Canada is every bit as serious. From an international point of view, it is in a very awkward situation. It cannot compete with the other countries, it cannot meet its obligations, and it cannot keep on injecting money into the International Bank, lending it money so that it can help various countries.
The World Bank was set up to help underdeveloped countries and those which were destroyed by war, to give them the help required for their economic, physical and intellectual development.
The International Bank must operate on the international as well as the national level; but now it is operating only half-way; it is not producing the expected results and that situation must be corrected; otherwise, we will witness horrible catastrophes that will have repercussions begging description.
And so, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the myth of clinging to gold as international currency for international exchanges, or else having 25 per cent in gold and the rest in bills, I must say that the Canadian people no longer believe it, nor do several other peoples. The gold myth should also disappear within the United Nations Organization which influences the International Bank and its member countries.
Several countries have signed that international agreement, those Bretton Woods agreements, and all signatory countries are in a bad way. Those which need some loans cannot obtain any, because there is not enough money in the fund, the rates of interest are too high and those which have already borrowed too much and have no credit are unable to borrow. Several countries would like to borrow from the International Bank, but since they have obtained other loans, they are unable to borrow, because their credit is nil. They have no more credit at the World Bank and that does not help matters. Neither does it help, Mr. Speaker, the international situation of the countries which signed those Bretton Woods agreements. Now, the gold myth should no longer exist.
This is what should be done in Canada: As a signatory country, we should demand its total and complete disappearance to which should be substituted a simple debit and credit accounting. When a country shows a debit, it is registered, as is done for a credit. Let us make away with that deplorable international gold situation. It does not render us any service. Even the United States which are among those countries which have particularly taken advantage of that agreement based on gold are denouncing it today. That country believes that it is financially foolish to encourage the use of the gold standard.
In conclusion Mr. Speaker, if we have an International Bank with various member countries, it should be authorized to grant credit, according to the needs, the situation and the possibilities of each country.
The International Bank should be able to extend credit to a country that needs money, but not at the fantastic interest rates known today, that is 5, 5i and 6 per cent, and sometimes more than 6 per cent, as is the case presently. In granting those funds, the International Bank should make loans to meet the needs of the various countries and charge only for its operating expenses. Then, Mr. Speaker, we could do something for the nation, instead of only creating mountains of debts. Instead of having debts impossible to repay, we would have manageable debts. Instead of lending what does not exist, we would rely on the real value, on the real physical needs of our country and this way, every country could expand normally and operate according to its possibilities, not according to the money that is in the International Bank.
If there are no funds in the International Bank, the development of countries or natural resources has to wait because that famous bank does not serve its purpose which is to lend money issued in accordance with each country's actual and physical capabilities. That, Mr. Speaker is the role and raison d'etre of an international bank or of a national bank. As long as this problem is not settled, we shall have to face even worse situations than the one we have to cope with now, because the more the present system is implemented, the more national economies are disrupted. The more that harmful indebtedness system is applied, the more we create insoluble problems of never-ending debts.
This is why we will have further repudiations of debts in many countries. This will also happen in Canada, as our difficulties to

January 15, 1969
Finance
pay the interest on our debt are only beginning. It we borrow money to pay the interest, how will we pay the debt itself and how will we manage to get out of the hole? We will never avoid this horrendous calamity, this fearful chaos created by heartless men who think only of making profits and keeping their control over people and countries, complete control and monopoly, in the hands of a few individuals at the expense of the masses. This is brought about by the Bretton Woods agreements, and there is much to be said about the agreements signed in the past and about the activities of this bank. I have here a whole bundle of documents I could read, but I think many hon. members have read them and I will spare the house all the details, so tedious and complex that many would fail to grasp their meaning.
Mr. Speaker, before I conclude my remarks, I would like to ask the government of Canada to introduce a resolution to the effect that the International Bank, under the Bretton Woods agreements, issue credits according to the needs and the potential of each country, at administration cost. If we do that, we will do something for some countries and enable them to develop in a normal way, according to the facts and their real potential.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I must inform the hon. parliamentary secretary that if he speaks now he will close the debate.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Speaker, I should like to thank hon. members of the house who have participated in this debate on second reading for their very interesting contributions to our discussion of this bill to permit Canada to participate in the special drawing rights scheme. A number of points have been raised. I think that hon. members will agree that the most appropriate place to pursue them in greater detail will be in the finance committee of the House of Commons. However, I might attempt to deal very briefly with one or two of the points raised by hon. members.
With respect to the question posed to me by the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert), I am informed that S.D.R.'s can be used by a holder without condition but it is provided that holders are not to use all their S.D.R.'s as they get them and not replace them. There will be a rule that they should
[Mr. Latulippe.l
hold minimum balances over five year periods on average amounting to 30 per cent of the S.D.R.'s which a country has received. This rule will be able to be changed on the basis of experience in the operation of the scheme.
The bulk of S.D.R.'s received can be used permanently if needed, and this is unlike the method of access to the present International Monetary Fund resources. It would be contemplated, that member countries would distinguish between gold currencies and S.D.R.'s in their reserves.
The hon. member for York South (Mr. Lewis) spoke about the question of an upper limit on international reserves. He may well be pleased to note that, as I am informed, there is no upper limit on the number of amount of S.D.R's that can be created. More can be created at any time by the International Monetary Fund under this amendment to the I.M.F. agreement, which this bill will help put into effect in so far as Canada is concerned. This, can be done when there is a collective judgment by International Monetary Fund members that more reserves are needed.
It is true that the normal practice will be for decisions about changes in the amounts of S.D.R.'s to be taken at five year intervals and implemented annually. As I said, decisions may be for shorter periods and the fund will have the authority to take a new decision at any time. Therefore, contrary to what I understand to have been suggested to the hon. member for York South, there will be no upper limit on the amount or number of S.D.R.'s that can be created and therefore I submit they will be able to play quite an effective role in the development of the International Monetary System.
Again, I suggest to hon. members that we pursue these more detailed questions when this bill is before the standing committee of this house on finance, trade and economic affairs. At that time we will have with us as witnesses officials of the Department of Finance and it may well be that the committee will want to consider calling others, as well. I am sure that in line with the traditions of the finance committee our deliberations will be considered useful for all concerned.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I conclude by again urging this house to adopt the second reading of this very important bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read a second time and referred to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs.
January 15, 1969


[Stage Direction]
Hon, Donald S. Macdonald (for the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs) moved the second reading and reference to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs of Bill S-4, respecting the marking of articles containing precious metals.
He said: Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Basford) will be in the house in a few minutes. This bill really has to do with the re-enactment of a measure that has been on the books for some years. The matter has been considered at some length in the other place. The purpose of the bill, as hon. members will have noted, is to make provision for quality standards with respect to certain precious metals.
Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: We did not
know you were to call this bill.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: As was indicated in the other place, it has become desirable over a period of years to modernize the regime with regard to these particular commodities and my recommendation would be, Mr. Speaker, that the matter might be considered fairly rapidly.
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)
On a subject of relatively specialized nature such as this it might be appropriate to give the bill fairly rapid progress on second reading and refer it to the standing committee for further consideration. As hon. members will have noted, the intention is to refer the bill to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs where it could be expected that a fuller explanation would be given with respect to its purposes. Probably a more lucid explanation of the bill can be given by my colleague the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Basford) who, propitiously, has just joined us.


Stanley Ronald Basford: Mr. Speaker, I am in the hands of the opposition. I do not know whether the opposition would like a lengthy statement at this time or will allow the bill, which is essentially a housekeeping measure, to go to committee where I would make a statement. This is legislation that we have had in Canada since 1908 to provide for the marking of gold and silver. It is a bill to provide for the marking of gold and silver, but because of technical changes in the
Precious Metals
industry and in the precious metals business we are revising the act to include two other metals, palladium and platinum, and we are providing for one mark for all four.
As I say, I am in the hands of the opposition. If there is any hope that we could pass the motion before six o'clock I would be happy to make my statement in committee.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Malpeque):: Mr. Speaker, so far as this party is concerned we would be agreeable to passing it before six o'clock but I am not aware of what some hon. members may want to say at this point.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, since this bill is going to land for some strange reason into the catch-all of the finance committee, again with the greatest respect I must ask the government house leader who on earth uses what divining rod to determine where bills go? Yesterday I pointed out to the minister that the finance committee was going to deal with some fishery improvement loans act, which I think should have gone to the forestry and fisheries committee because that is where the expertise is in that subject.
This bill is a matter of interest to consumers, dealing as it does with standards. I would have thought it should go to the committee that deals with matters on the consumer side. In any event we shall have to listen to the minister's statement, but in approaching these bills I think greater care could be used so that the finance committee will not be saddled with a lot of bills that really do not affect is directly. That committee deals with finance and trade.
I also suggest that hon. members can examine the proceedings on this bill in the other place. I presume it went before the Senate banking and commerce committee and that the minister made a statement there. I agree that the bill looks like a standard housekeeping one but it contains one clause that I hope will be buried. With respect to any regulations that the minister makes thereunder these shall be tabled by the minister. Let us have none of this business of relying on the Regulations Act. If we are going to have a committee on delegated legislation let us have it clearly spelled out in the act.
Also I would hope we would not have to introduce another new act if new precious metals are discovered, or some combination thereof, this being the motivation for bringing the present act up to date. I shall now give the remaining two minutes to members

January 15, 1969
Precious Metals
of other parties, and I thank hon. gentlemen opposite for the notice they have given us about this bill.


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: 
Mr.   C.-A. Gauthier@Roberval: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to prevent referring the bill to the committee, because I think that it is a matter which must be discussed specifically within the committee. As for the question which has been raised, relative to the choice of the committee, at first sight, it is certainly a matter for the committee on finance, trade and economic affairs and it also concerns consumption. We agree that the bill should be referred to the committee immediately.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs.

John Angus MacLean: Mr. Speaker, would the government house leader confirm whether the schedule of business for tomorrow will be the continuation of what was announced yesterday? We would be pleased if he would announce any variations in advance. He seems to have mixed up the precious metals and fresh fish.


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The minister responsible for the freshwater fish marketing bill will be with us tomorrow and, therefore, we will commence business with that particular measure and then have the pleasure again of seeing our colleague the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs (Mr. Basford) on the drug prices bill.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put pursuant, to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, January 18, 1969