1968-12-18

Hon. Bryce S. Mackasey (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to
announce changes in the TAB or transitional assistance benefit program. I shall read this four page document as rapidly as possible. The purpose of these amendments is to extend the duration of the TAB program for another 18 months. Hon. members will recall that the program was to have ended on December 31 of this year. In addition there are a number of changes that will make the program of greater assistance to workers laid off in the automotive industry. It will better serve its original purpose, which is to ensure that the auto pact, which benefits the whole economy, is not effected at the expense of workers in the automotive industry.
It is proposed to extend the transitional assistance benefit program by 18 months, as I said, so that a lay-off can be certified as coming under the terms of the program up to June 30, 1970. This, hon. members will note, is the same date as that to which the assistance to firms in the industry under the loan program is being contemplated.
The rules on the eligibility of an individual for TAB will be eased. It is proposed that an employee be eligible if he has worked 16 weeks in the industry in the past 52 weeks. Previously the time required was 30 weeks. He must still be qualified for unemployment insurance.
The formula for benefit has been improved. It is now based on one week of benefit for every two weeks worked in the automotive industry in the past two years. The old formula provided four weeks of benefit to employees who had qualified by working 30 weeks in the previous 52, with one extra week of benefit for each additional week of service in that year, plus one week of benefit for each week of service in the year before the previous 52 weeks.
The 52 week maximum benefit is retained, but with the shorter qualifying period this
change will allow a longer benefit period for employees with short service in the industry. It is proposed that this change be made retroactive to November 22, 1968.
An employee's entitlement to TAB remains in effect until it is exhausted, up to the expiry date of the program. At present that date is December 27, 1969. That is one year beyond the present termination date of the program. As things stand now a worker certified on that date who had a full year of entitlement to supplementary assistance benefit would never have a chance to draw TAB because the supplementary assistance benefit would have to be taken first. Thus he would be discriminated against compared with workers certified early in the program.
It is proposed that all workers be treated alike by assuring a three year period of entitlement regardless of when the lay-off was certified. The final cut-off point for receiving TAB benefit would be June 30, 1973.
At present an employee must use up any supplementary unemployent benefit to which he is entitled before he can draw TAB. It is proposed that an employee be allowed to choose which benefit he draws first, but not to allow both to be drawn at the same time. However, it is expected that in almost every case the employee will elect to draw supplementary unemployment benefit first because that would be in his best financial interest.
To sum up, these amendments will extend the life of the TAB program by a year and a half, will provide more assistance to workers with short service in the automotive industry, and will allow workers to choose which of SUB or TAB they will draw first. The amendments make some other minor modifications of an administrative nature.
[DOT] (2:40 p.m.)
In conclusion I should like to add that I have been informed by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce that a statement was made at eleven o'clock this morning by the Ford Motor Company announcing that a second shift would be added to their St. Thomas assembly plant beginning next May, which will increase the plant work force from 1580 employees to 2715 employees for a net increase of 1135 new positions. I have also

December 18, 1968
Labour Conditions
been assured by the Ford company that the people who have been laid off in Windsor will be given preference in hiring at St. Thomas. However, this preference will be in accordance with the terms of their collective agreements.


Mr. Russell MacEwan (Central Nova):: Mr. Speaker, first of all I should like to thank the minister for his courtesy in sending me a copy of his statement before noon today. We on this side of the house appreciate this very much.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Howard Russell MacEwan: I also commend the minister for the changes in the TAB regulations. This is something which had been pressed for by members of this party as is shown in the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition and myself as reported at page 3132 of Hansard for November 25, 1968. We certainly go along with the changes. I note that the life of the TAB agreement and regulations will be extended for a year and a half. It will cut down the necessity of having 30 weeks of employment in the last 52 weeks. The period now will be 16 weeks. Another important change is that which gives the option of choosing between SUB and TAB, whichever the worker wishes to take. This is a good move.
I wonder whether the minister has looked hard at the possibility of giving consideration to the situation in some other areas such as the constituency of my friend the hon. member for Cape Breton-The Sydneys (Mr. Muir), where some 600 stevedores are now out of work because of the changed situation with regard to the ferry there. The hon. member has brought up this matter many times.
This also brings to mind something else which has been discussed in the house; that is, the necessity of having companies, or as in the case of my hon. friend here the government, give sufficient notice to workers in order that they may have an opportunity to look after themselves, find other jobs and so on. I think this should be done. I think of places like Bell Island. My friend the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. McGrath) represents that area. I think of the Sydney steel situation which is important, particularly to the people of Nova Scotia. I believe special consideration should be given to this. I realize that the minister is waiting for the Woods task force report. We are all waiting anxiously for this report, and hope something

will be done in this regard, to look after the employees.
This measure assists the unemployment situation in the Windsor area. I hope the minister and the government will now come forward with policies to assist the very great number of unemployed throughout this country at this time. We know the latest figures are high. I think of the heavy unemployment in the shipyards, in the fisheries and in the rail car industry in my area, as well as others.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I must interrupt the hon. member to remind himself of the rule which governs statements on motions. The statements which may be made by hon. members on behalf of parties in opposition should be brief and should not be of such a nature as to provoke debate at this stage.


Howard Russell MacEwan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I shall be very brief and conclude by saying I would ask the government, in view of the plight of the people in this country, to bring forward immediately policies to alleviate the heavy unemployment situation in this country.


Mr. J. Edward Broadbent (Oshawa-Whilby):: I too, Mr. Speaker, would like to thank the minister for his cordial act in sending a copy of his statement to the New Democratic party prior to his announcement in the house.
I find myself in the very happy position at this time of year of being able to say that I think the minister and the government have done a fine job in this area. At the same time I hope the minister and the government will understand that the effective changes in the TAB agreement were argued for at some length by members of this party on behalf of the automotive workers. That does not detract in any way from the fact that we now have these very fine changes in the TAB agreement.
The only point I wish to make is that I hope I and hon. members on this side of the house will not have to wait until Easter to congratulate the minister for another fine act. Of course I am referring to the proposals in the Freedman report, which I know he is very enthusiastic about. We look forward to government action in that field in the new year.


M. C. A. Gauthier (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, although I have not received a copy of the
December 18, 1968

statement made by the minister-and I do not blame him, for he may have sent it to another office-I would like, nevertheless, to congratulate him on having mitigated the regulations concerning eligibility for benefits of the automotive industry workers who have been laid off.
I wish to take this opportunity to ask the minister to think also of industries other than the automotive industry, where many workers are laid off and only receive 30 weeks of unemployment insurance benefits during the first 52 weeks.
Mr. Speaker, I think that if the minister continues to do a good job, he will certainly take an interest in the industries in our regions. I would also ask him to think of the agricultural industry, since our farmers have never been spoiled.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


Hon. Gerard Pelletier (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, further to the question put to me last Monday by the hon. member for Fundy-Royal (Mr. Fairweather), the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation advises me that it has received a positive reply from Mr. Hall to whom the letter had been addressed; I am prepared to table copy of that letter in French and in English.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


Mr. W. M. Howe (Wellington-Grey) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-147, to control the tar content and nicotine level of cigarettes.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


William Marvin Howe: In view of medical information that cigarette smoking creates a definite health hazard for the nation, it seems to be a fact that this health hazard is associated with the tar and nicotine content in cigarettes. According to a recent report on research done at Waterloo University there is a great variation in the tar and nicotine content of cigarettes.
[DOT] (2:50 p.m.)
The purpose of this bill is to take steps in order that the safest possible cigarette be made available to the Canadian public. I
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would hope the government would give favourable consideration to referring this bill to the committee on health and welfare and social services, as has been done with other bills of a similar kind.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg: North Centre):
1.	How many retired federal civil servants are receiving pensions of amounts within each of the following brackets: (a) less than $20 per month (b) $20 to $29.99 per month (c) $30 to $39.99 per month (d) $40 to $49.99 per month (e) $50 to $59.99 per month (f) $60 to $69.99 per month (g) $70 to $79.99 per month (h) $80 to $89.99 per month (i) $90 to $99.99 per month (j) $100 to $149.99 per month (k) $150 to $199.99 per month (1) $200 to $249.99 per month (m) $250 to $299.99 per month (n) $300 per month and over?
2.	How many widows of civil servants or of retired civil servants are receiving pensions of amounts within each of the brackets indicated in the above question?
3.	What is the number of retired civil servants and also the number of widows of civil servants or of retired civil servants presently residing in each province?
4.	In respect of how many orphans of federal civil servants are pensions being paid and what is the average amount thereof?


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of Finance):: 1. See table 1.
2. See table 2.
3.	No. of	No. of
	Retired	Widows of
Civil Servants		Civil Servants
Newfoundland	374	168
Prince Edward Island 194		98
Nova Scotia	1,638	852New Brunswick	985	523Quebec	5,691	3,312Ontario	14,615	7,447Manitoba	1,521	748Saskatchewan	1,052	426Alberta	1,829	849British Columbia	5,362	2,148Territories	65	7Outside Canada	585	37133,911	16,949
4. 103 orphans. The average pension per annum-$207.


TABLE 1-ANNUITANTS
[Stage Direction]
Monthly Dollar Brackets	Years of Service	Total0-4	5-9	10-14	15-19	20-24	25-29	30-34	35 + over	Less than $20.00	47	183	27	11	7	7	5	2	289$*>0.00- $29.99	16	1,010	93	16	3	3	1	5	1,147$30.00- $39.99	18	um	353	44	14	8	1	2	1,888$40.00- $49.99	7	1,189	639	111	22	14	9	7	1,938$50.00- $59.99	3	617	1,044	210	35	16	6	8	1,939$60.00- $69.99	298	1,090	362	110	16	8	7	1,902$70.00- $79.99	7	135	1,015	462	154	39	9	6	1,827$80.00- $89.99	6	74	734	552	222	95	19	7	1,709$90.00- $99.99	4	41	516	617	223	145	37	16	1,599$100.00-8149.99	16	81	804	8,111	1,494	848	677	465	6,496$150.00-$199.99	6	50	139	649	1,305	802	673	1,071	4,695$200.00-$249.99	4	4	31	158	474	641	613	1,884	3,209$250.00-$299.99	2	12	57	200	299	349	1,201	2,120$300.00 and over	10	84	252	403	463	1,941	3,153Total	145	5,072	6,507	5,444	4,515	3,336	2,870	6,022	33,911
In addition to these amounts, persons of age 67 and over, with the necessary residence qualifications, would be eligible for the Old Age Security pension of $76.50 per month in 1968 plus the Guaranteed Income Supplement of up to $30.60 for those with the lower incomes.
Some of these pensioners will be receiving additional pensions in respect of service in the Armed Forces or the R.C.M.P. or other employment.
The cases shown in this table, where there is a combination of long service and small pension, can arise from two sources: (1) Newfoundland Government employees who transferred to the federal service in 1949 at the time of Union who retired soon after transfer and before their higher federal government salaries had been received long enough to raise the pension level, and (2) Revenue and Assistant Revenue Postmasters in low revenue offices who were brought under the Civil Service Superannuation Act in the late '40's.
All cases which have been identified are of the former category.
4096	COMMONS DEBATES	December 18, 1968
Questions

[Stage Direction]
Years of Service
Monthly Dollar Brackets	0-4	5-9	10-14	15-19	20-24	25-29	30-34	35 + over Total
Less than $20.00... $20.00- $29.99.... $30.00- $39.99.... $40.00- $49.99.... $50.00- $59.99.... $60.00- $69.99.... $70.00- $79.99.... $80.00- $89.99.... $90.00- $99.99.... $100.00-$149.99.... $150.00-$199.99.... $200.00-$249.99.... $250.00-$299.99.... $300.00 and over...
Total
111	1,138	362	31	65	649	889	302	51167	784	529	26943	384	470	mI	19	172	398	2951	9	86	248	2461	8	31	174	2021	3	16	107	1321	11	53	1241	2	23	113	2326	444	451	403	2881	6	201	95127	2,483	3,210	2,835	2,2875	1	1,6548	1	2	1,90754	6	7	1,816225	34	6	1,570SSO	197	23	1,435254	275	187	1,306227	243	312	1,198151	187	236	833125	156	223	693324	m	881	2,000179	140	322	2,23323	27	93	17013	8	41	7212	15	30	621,930	1,713	2,364	16,949
In addition to these amounts, persons of age 67 and over, with the necessary residence qualifications, would be eligible for the Old Age Security pension of $76.50 per month in 1968 plus the Guaranteed Income Supplement of up to $30.60 for those with the lower incomes.
Some of these pensioners will be receiving additional pensions in respect of service in the Armed Forces or the R.C.M.P. or other employment.
The cases shown in this table, where there is a combination of long service and small pension, can arise from two sources: (1) Newfoundland Government employees who transferred to the federal service in 1949 at the time of Union who retired soon after transfer and before their highly federal government salaries had been received long enough to raise the pension level, and (2) Revenue and Assistant Revenue Postmasters in low revenue offices who were brought under the Civil Service Superannuation Act in the late '40's.
All cases which have been identified are of the former category.
December 18, 1968	COMMONS DEBATES	4097
Questions
[Stage Direction]
December 18, 1968
Questions

Mr. Code: 1.	To what municipalities, school boards or other municipal agencies in the National Capital Region does the Government of Canada or any department or agency thereof make grants in lieu of taxes?
2.	What departments or agencies make such grants?
3.	What was the total amount of the grant made in each year based upon the municipal or school tax bills for the years 1966 and 1967 to each such municipality, school board or municipality agency by each such department or agency?
4.	Of the total amount of the grant to each such municipality, school board or municipal agency by each department or agency, what part of such grant was based upon the school tax component of the tax bill?


Edgar John Benson: December 18, 1968
Questions
SHIP CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTS	2. Yes.


Mr. Anderson: 1.	What is the value of all federal government ship construction contracts in the years 1965, 1966, 1967 and the first six months of 1968?
2.	What is the value of federal government ship construction contracts given to west coast ship yards during those years?
3.	What percentage of federal government ship construction contracts is to be guaranteed to west coast yards in the years 1969 and 1970?
4.	Is it still the intention of the government to have national bidding on all new ship construction after 1970?


Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Privy Council):: I am
informed by the department of Industry and Defence Production as follows: 1. Federal government contract expenditures on ship construction (excluding repairs) amounted to approximately $170M., distributed by fiscal years as follows: 1965/66, $33.5M; 1966/67, $53.23M;	1967/68,	$57.79M;	1968/69	(6
months), $25.50M.
2.	Federal government contract expenditures in West Coast shipyards on ship construction (excluding repairs) amounted to approximately $34M.
3.	The allocation of ship construction contracts to the West Coast area for 1969 and 1970 is at present under consideration.
4.	Yes, whenever the nature and operational circumstances of the requirement permits. Area competitions will be held where it is not practical to transfer a vessel from one area to another.


CROWN CORPORATION BOND ISSUES
Mr. Foriin: 1.	What Crown corporations float public bond issues?
2.	Has the government any control over such bond issues?
3.	Are such bonds guaranteed by the government?
4.	During the past five years, which bond issues were floated and at what interest rates?
5.	Has the government considered, is it considering, or will it consider granting Crown corporations the authority to borrow from the general public?


Yves Forest: 1. The
Canadian National Railways and Polymer Corporation Limited have floated public bond issues.
3.	In the case of C.N.R., its bond issues are guaranteed by the government. Bonds issued by the Polymer Corporation Limited are not guaranteed by the government.
4.	There has been only one public bond issue in the past five years. It was made by the Polymer Corporation November 1, 1967; its amount was $18 millions and the interest rate was 7J per cent.
5.	The government has considered and approved borrowing from the general public in the instances covered in the above replies. Authority for crown corporations to borrow from the general public must first be incorporated in the corporate powers granted by Parliament. The government is not considering seeking from Parliament such general authority for all crown corporations. Where such authority exists, the government's approval of borrowing by a crown corporation from the general public takes into account such considerations as the purpose of the borrowing, the type of bond or security to be issued, its terms and conditions, the capital market in which it is to be sold, and the conditions in that capital market. Also included among such considerations is a comparison of the relevant cost of supplying the required funds out of the proceeds of direct borrowing by the Government as opposed to borrowing in the name of the crown corporation with or without a Government guarantee.


MISSION TO FRANCE RESPECTING SATELLITE COMMUNICATIONS
Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Who are the members of the Canadian mission now in France discussing co-operation in the field of telecommunications satellite research?
2.	What is the position held in the Public Service of Canada by each member of the mission?
3.	When is the group expected to return to Canada?
4.	What is the purpose of the mission?
5.	What is the estimated total cost of the mission?
6.	Were other persons not officials of the Canadian Government asked to accompany the mission?
7.	Is it the intention of the government to construct a television satellite and, if so, when is it intended that such satellite will be functioning and what is the estimated cost?
8.	From what countries are component parts for such a satellite currently available?

December 18, 1968

9.	To what other countries will the mission referred to in Part I or a similar one be sent?


Hon. Eric W. Kierans (Postmaster General):: In so far as telecommunications is concerned-
1 and 2. Dr. J. R. Whitehead, Science secretariat, PCO; Mr. Gilles Bergeron, Manager, project office, domestic satellite communications, system, PCO; Mr. Robert Bibby, Head of the grounds stations and data, processing group of electronics, laboratories, defence research telecommunications establishment; Mr. Harry Kowalik, Professional, space mechanic section, electronics laboratories, defence. Research telecommunications establishment; Mr. Donald Weese, Systems engineer, project office, domestic satellite communications, systems, PCO; Mr. Jacques Mercier, Communications section, electrical and electronics branch, Department of Industry.
3.	Mr. Bergeron returned to Canada on October 26; other members of the mission returned on November 5.
4.	(a) To study and analyze in detail the "Symphonie" satellite project in order to evaluate progress in European space developments and to determine how it could be applied to Canadian projects; (b) To seek in the following countries: France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Holland and Belgium, the evaluation of manufacturers and laboratories that could manufacture our telecommunication satellites in the near or distant future; (c) To study at random possibilities of long term space cooperation.
5.	The estimated cost of the mission is $9,885.17.
6.	No.
7.	(a) Yes, (b) The end of 1971 or the beginning of 1972; (c) Since the program is still under way and studies not fully completed, it is impossible to establish the total cost at the present time.
8.	U.S.A., Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Holand and Italy.
9.	See answer 4 (b).


ART CENTRE EXPENDITURES
Mr. Diefenbaker: 1.	Were any expenditures made for and on behalf of the National Art Centre by the Depart-
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ment of the Secretary of State and/or the Centennial Commission?
2.	If so, what is the amount thereof?


Gérard Pelletier: 1.	Yes.
2.	The following expenditures were made for construction of the National Arts Centre, cumulative to October 25, 1968: Centennial commission: $4,261,064; Department of the Secretary of State: $31,414,536; Before the establishment of the National Arts Centre Corporation, the following expenditures were made for or on behalf of the "Office of the Co-ordinator of the National Arts Centre for the Performing Arts": 1964-1965, Centennial commission, $92,680; 1965-1966, Centennial commission, $118,868; 1966-1967, Department of the Secretary of State, $191,797.


SALE OF AIR CANADA VANGUARD PLANES
Mr. Forreslall: 1.	Is Air Canada planning to sell its fleet of "Vanguards" in whole or part?
2.	If so, on what schedule will the sales take place?
3.	Have any been sold to date and, if so, to whom and at what cost?
4.	(a) What was the average purchase cost of each plane (b) what is the present average depreciated value per aircraft (c) what is the current average market worth of the planes?
5.	What aircraft will replace them if they are to be sold?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of Transport):: The Management of Air Canada advises as follows:-1. Yes, Air Canada is planning on a progressive retirement of its Vanguard fleet.
2.	5 aircraft available for sale January 1, 1969, 4 additional aircraft by March 1, 1969 and the remainder of the fleet (14) by November 1, 1971.
3.	No.
4.	(a) $2,988,809; (b) At October 31, 1968 $142,372; (c) Between $250,000 and $675,000 depending on the condition of the plane.
5.	In general, DC-9s, but on certain routes, DC-8s.


CANADIAN TRANSPORT COMMISSION
Mr. Fortin: 1.	Who are the members of the Canadian Transport Commission, what is the duration of their term of office and what is the salary of each?

December 18. 1968
Questions
2.	Where is the head office of the Commission, and does it meet in other major Canadian cities and, if so, what cities?
3.	Does the Commission have jurisdiction over (a) international transportation by rail, air, pipeline, sea and by road (b) interprovincial transportation by rail, road, water, pipeline and by air (c) intraprovincial transportation by rail, road, water, air and by pipeline?
4.	What has been the outcome of negotiations between the federal government and the provinces regarding a division of powers over transportation?
5.	Since its establishment, how many permits in each category were granted by the Commission?
6.	What regulations have been passed under the Transportation Act?
7.	Are the Commission's decisions published?
8.	Is the Commission conducting an investigation with regard to the establishment of a merchant marine policy in Canada and, if so, when will the results be available?
9.	When will the first report of the C.T.C. be submitted to the House?
10.	How many appeals were made from decisions of the C.T.C.?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1.	The following are members of the Canadian Transport Commission: Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, P.C., president; Pierre Taschereau, Q.C., vicepresident; J. R. Belcher; G. R. Boucher; Q.C.; A. P. Campbell; J. F. Clark; R. R. Cope; H. J. Darling; J. E. Dumontier; L. Fortier, Q.C.; H. H. Griffin; W. R. Irwin; D. H. Jones; A. S. Kirk; J. A. D. Magee; G. Morisset; J. M. Woodard. The National Transportation Act provides for members to be appointed for a period not exceeding 10 years, but to cease to hold office upon reaching the age of 70. The annual remuneration of the president is $40,000; of the vice president, $35,000; of other members, $24,000. An additional remuneration of $3,000 per annum is paid to any member of the commission who is appointed to be chairman of a committee of the commission.
2.	The head office of the commission is located at 275 Slater Street, Ottawa. The commission has district offices in St. John's, Moncton, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Vancouver, Calgary. The sittings of the commission are held in Ottawa but the commission sits elsewhere in any part of Canada whenever circumstances render it expedient.
3.	The National Transportation Act, under which the commission was constituted, applies

to the following modes of transport:	(a)
transport by railways to which the Railway Act applies; (b) transport by air to which the Aeronautics Act applies; (c) transport by water to which the Transport Act applies and all other transport by water to which the legislative authority of the parliament of Canada extends; (d) transport by a commodity pipeline connecting a province with any other or others of the provinces or extending beyond the limits of a province; and (e) transport for hire or reward by a motor vehicle undertaking connecting a province with any other or others of the provinces or extending beyond the limits of a province; Parts II and III of the act dealing with the subject matters of (d) and (e) are not presently in force.
4.	There have been no such negotiations.
5.	9 licences have been issued pursuant to the Transport Act; 139 new licences were issued pursuant to the Aeronautics Act.
6.	The Canadian Transport Commission general rules.
7.	There is no general publication of the decisions of the commission; however, the decisions of the railway transport committee of the commission are published by the Queen's Printer under the heading "Judgments, Orders, Regulations and Rulings".
8.	The commission is undertaking a study of the economic feasibility of a Canadian deep sea merchant marine. It is expected that the study will take about a year.
9.	The first annual report of the Canadian Transport Commission was tabled in the House of Commons on April 23, 1968.
10.	There have been 20 appeals pursuant to section 18 of the National Transportation Act and one appeal pursuant to section 53 of the Railway Act.


RECREATIONAL FACILITIES ON INDIAN RESERVES
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Is any capital assistance available to establish recreational facilities on Indian reserves?
2.	If so, what amounts are available, on what terms and under what programs?
3.	Has the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development received any applications from Indian Bands for loans or grants for capital assistance for recreational programs and, if so (a)
December 18, 1968

where have such requests come from (b) what loans or grants have been made (c) what loans or grants have been refused and for what reasons?


Hon. Jean Chretien (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1. There is at present no program which provides capital assistance to establish recreational facilities on Indian reserves.
2.	While capital assistance as such is not available, grants for recreational programs are available on the basis of on-reserve population. These are granted at the rate of $1.00 per capita for every 10 cents per capita contributed by the band. The maximum is $5.00 per capita but not exceeding $5,000.00 to a band in a year.
3.	Since April 1, 1968 the Department received the following application: (a) The Bella Bella band applied for capital assistance; (b) None; (c) The Bella Bella band request is under consideration.


REPRESENTATIONS BY ARMSTRONG INDIAN ASSOCIATION
Mr. Yewchuk: 1.	With reference to the meeting of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development with the president of the Armstrong Indian Association on Tuesday, October 29, 1968, will the Minister make a grant available to Mr. Hector King, president of the association, as a means of encouraging direct involvement of the Indian peoples in the political process?
2.	Will the Minister take the initiative in arranging for such a grant from other agencies so that the work of Mr. King can continue?
3.	What concrete steps does the Minister propose to encourage the participation of the Indian people and to ensure that the policy of the Department reflects the views of the Indian people, as recommended in the Hawthorn Report?
4.	Does the Minister intend to expand the terms of reference of the Indian Act hearings to allow full discussion of means by which the Indian people can participate in the development of Indian policy?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1 and 2.
In reply to Mr. Hector King's brief, the minister indicated that he would listen to the views and proposals put forward by the Armstrong Indian Association so long as it continues to be a true representative of the Indian community at Armstrong, Ontario. An
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agreement is in effect between the Ontario government and the department, whereby the province assigns a community development worker to Armstrong to work with the Indian and non-Indian population. Because of this, the department informed Mr. King that it would not be appropriate to appoint him as a community development worker at this time.
3.	Indian people now participate in the administration of their affairs through their band councils and they make known their views on policy through their councils and Indian organizations. In addition, policy matters have, during the past three years, been reviewed at meetings of regional Indian advisory councils and the national Indian advisory board. More recently, Indian leaders have met to establish the National Indian Brotherhood which, it is expected, will have an important role in expressing the views of the Indian people. Relationship between the government and the native brotherhood as well as regional organizations, is currently under review and it is my hope and expectation that they will play an increasingly important role in assisting the government with the formulation of Indian Affairs policy.
4.	While the main objective of the Indian Act hearings has been to seek the views of the Indian people respecting the Act, the discussions have ranged beyond the Act and have included the subject raised in the question.


NOTICE OF SALARY INCREASES DEPENDENT UPON FRENCH STUDY
Mr. Harkness: 1.	Have some civil servants been given notice with their pay cheque that there will not be the usual increase in salary unless they enrol for a French course?
2.	If so, how many civil servants were such notices sent to and in what geographical areas?


Yves Forest: 1. No.
2.	Not applicable.


PUBLIC WORKS TESTING LABORATORIES
Mr. Paproski: 1.	Did the Department of Public Works maintain and operate a soils, concrete and asphalt testing laboratory at Banff, Alberta?

December 18, 1968
Questions
2.	If so, when was it established and is it still in operation or was it closed (a) on what dates, and (b) for what reasons?
3.	What was its average personnel complement?
4.	As a replacement were there established a separate soils testing laboratory in Edmonton and a concrete and asphalt testing laboratory in Calgary with the technicians therein under the direction of an engineer in Edmonton?
5.	Has this proved unsatisfactory and for what reasons?
6.	Is it now proposed to expand both the testing laboratories in Edmonton and Calgary and to what level of operations?
7.	Will this require additional personnel and, if so, how many and of what kinds?
8.	What would be the area of jurisdiction of such testing laboratories?
9.	Does the Department of Transport operate a similar testing laboratory in Edmonton and what prevents the joint use of such laboratories?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Department of Public Works and the Department of Transport as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Established in 1956. Closed in 1967; (b) The department's administrative functions in Banff were transferred to Calgary and Edmonton.
3.	26.
4.	Yes.
5.	No.
6.	No.
7.	Not applicable.
8.	Edmonton: routine testing for quality control of materials with emphasis on soil testing for projects in the Northwest Territories; Calgary: routine testing for quality control of construction materials for projects in the prairie provinces.
9.	The Department of Transport operates a soils and materials testing laboratory in Edmonton for testing soils and pavement materials including asphalt and concrete to assure compliance with specification requirements. The facilities available are limited to those necessary to meet the department's day to day work load only, in the specific field of airport construction. Specialized testing is performed by other agencies as and when required.


GREAT LAKES FISHING POLICY
Mr. Robinson: 1.	What is the government policy regarding the fishing industry in the Great Lakes?

2.	What is the government policy regarding the provision on the Great Lakes of (a) wharfs (b) harbours (c) harbour facilities (d) marina facilities?
3.	Does the government propose to charge a fee for the use of federal wharfs and facilities on the Great Lakes?
4.	Will the government assist municipal authorities to provide harbour, wharf and marina facilities in the Great Lakes?
5.	What is the government policy toward assisting Metropolitan Toronto in setting up a Harbours Board and/or Port of Authority and what facilities will the federal government provide?
Mr. Yves Forest (Parliamentary Secretary
to President of the Privy Council): I am informed by the departments of Fisheries, Public Works and Transport as follows: 1. In Ontario the provincial government has assumed responsibility for administration of the fisheries, through agreement with the federal government. Responsibility for the Canadian share of fisheries research and lamprey control programmes conducted pursuant to the terms of the Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries between Canada and the United States of America is assumed by the federal and provincial governments.
2.	(a) and (b) The Department of Public Works provides wharfs and harbours where these are economically justifiable and funds can be made available; (c) Normally harbour facilities such as water, light, parking areas, etc. are not the responsibility of the Department of Public Works; (d) Under the Marina policy assistance may be granted in the establishment of a public marina. This is limited to the construction of breakwaters and dredging in the main harbour channels and is contingent on the developer spending an equal number of dollars on landing places and other shore facilities.
3.	Wharfage tolls and dues are payable on vessels using federal public wharves under direct administration of the Department of Transport. Charges apply also on goods loaded or unloaded at the wharves or for storage, etc User charges at the wharves have been in effect for many years. The present schedule of rates is included in the Government Wharves Regulations authorized by Order in Council P.C. 1964-104 dated January 23, 1964, as amended.
4.	See answer to 2. above.
5.	The present Toronto Harbour administration was incorporated under the Toronto
December 18. 1968

Harbour Commissioners Act, 1911. The Toronto Harbour Commissioners have kept the government informed with respect to current planning for redevelopment of the Metropolitan Toronto waterfront and members of the government have also had preliminary informal discussions with City authorities in these matters and related questions pertaining to future harbour administration. The question of federal assistance for new harbour works or facilities is also receiving consideration in conjunction with major harbour studies now in progress.


MINISTERS IN CHICAGO, OCTOBER 1968
Mr. Schreyer: 1.	Were any federal Ministers in Chicago on official business at any time during October 1968?
2.	If so (a) how many persons were in the group despatched to Chicago (b) for how long a period of time and at what public cost (c) what was the cost of leasing or hiring of limousines and/or other means of transportation?


Yves Forest: 1. No.
2.	Not applicable.


PAYMENTS TO WITNESSES, CHARGES AGAINST SEAMEN'S UNION MEMBERS
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	What is the name and address of each person who received payments, with the amount of such payment indicated, for (a) transportation, and (b) other than transportation to attend as witnesses with respect to certain charges laid against certain members of the Seafarer's International Union as referred to on pages 2472-3 of Hansard?
2.	With respect to Part (b) of the above, for what purposes, in detail, were the payments made in each person's case?


Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Solicitor General):: 1.	There were 94 witnesses in this case, however, it is not deemed to be in the public interest to publish the names and addresses of the individual witnesses. Total payments, revised in accordance with the information available as of this date, are as follows: (a) $5,915.60; (b) $9,599.55.
2.	Witness fees, $2,785.00; Meals and lodging, $6,814.55.


C.N.R. POLICE, MONCTON AREA
Mr. Crossman: 1.	What is the extent of the area covered by the C.N.R. Police based in Moncton, N.B.?
2.	What was the repair cost during the last full year to damage caused by vandalism in this area?
Questions
3.	How many C.N.R. Police officers are employed in this area?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, the management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows:
1.	Metropolitan Moncton, the Sussex subdivision between Moncton and Sussex and lines of railway comprised in other local subdivisions radiating from the Moncton area.
2.	Such information is not available in the form asked.
3.	25.


EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Mr. Coates: 1.	How many applications were received for the position of Executive Director of the Company of Young Canadians and were any of the applications received for this position from members of the present staff and, if so, what members of the present staff made application for the position?
2.	What is the full name, address and qualifications of the individual appointed to the position of Executive Director and what past experience qualified him for his present position?


Gérard Pelletier: I have been informed by the chairman of the provisional council of the Company of Young Canadians as follows: 1. 157 applications were received for the position of executive director of the Company of Young Canadians; applications were received from members of the staff; these applications were made in confidence.
2.	Mr. Claude Vidal, 672 Wiseman Street, Outremont, Montreal 8, Quebec.
Personal data and education: 38 years of age; married and father of two children; B.A. (1956) and M.A. (linguistics) (1962), University de Montreal. Class work for a Ph.D. (linguistics) completed at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (1962-64).
Working experience: August 1966 to present: government of the province of Quebec. Present title-Director of "Ecole des Beaux-Arts"; August 1965 to September 1966: Montreal Catholic School Board. Title-Associate to the Director, Adult Education; August 1964 to August 1965: Montreal Catholic School Board. Title-Directeur, Language Teaching Bureau; September 1956 to August 1964: Jacques Cartier Normal School. Title-Director of English Language Section.
The governor-in-council and the provisional council of the Company of Young Canadians feel that Mr. Vidal's experience, first as

December 18, 1968
Questions
a teacher, and more particularly as director oi the ficole des Beaux-Arts, Montreal, have equipped him eminently for the executive directorship of the Company of Young Canadians. In his most recent post, Mr. Vidal encouraged a substantial measure of effective self government within the school, and through that self government a thorough review of the finances, administration and curriculum of the school.


HALIFAX SPACE RENTAL, COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breton-East Richmond): 1.	Has the Company of Young Canadians rented space in a Halifax hotel?
2.	If so (a) for how long (b) at what cost (c) for what purpose?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Company of Young Canadians as follows: 1. Yes.
2. (a) The Company of Young Canadians, through the Department of Public Works, leased 500 square feet in the Lord Nelson hotel, Halifax for a period of five years from August 16th, 1966. The company requested that the Department of Public Works sub-let the above premises in February, 1968; (b) The annual cost was $2,640; (c) The premises were leased to provide office accommodation.


COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS- DAVID DEPOE
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breton-East Richmond): 1.	Was David DePoe a member of the Company of Young Canadians, does he still hold a position with the body and, if not, when did he cease his work with that body and did he resign from that body?
2.	If David DePoe was a member of the C.Y.C. was he ever retained by that body as a "consultant" or in any professional capacity and, if so, was this during the period he was also a member of that body or at a later date and, if so, when?
3.	If David DePoe was retained in any capacity by the C.Y.C. other than as a volunteer, what was the purpose and duties of the position in question and how much did he receive in fees and expenses?
4.	Has the C.Y.C. ever paid any fine for any "consultant" or other person retained by that body in any professional capacity in the City of Toronto and, if so (a) what was his name (b) what was the charge against him (c) what was the amount of that fine, and (d) for what reason was such fine paid?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Company of Young

Canadians as follows: 1. Mr. David DePoe is a volunteer member of the Company of Young Canadians. His contract expires January 17, 1969.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	No.


SUMMER EMPLOYMENT FOR STUDENTS
Mr. Yewchuk: 1.	Is the government considering the establishment of a national program for summer employment of university students as recommended at the meeting of the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada?
2.	Has the attention of the Minister of Manpower and Immigration been drawn to a statement by the President of the University and College Planning Association that Canadian university students face another "very bleak" employment situation this summer and, if so, has the government launched any special studies of the student employment problem?
3.	Will the government bring in legislation to amend the Canada Student Loans Act to make parttime students eligible for loans and at the same time, will the Prime Minister say whether any changes are contemplated in the regulations to make it easier for students to obtain grants and loans?


Yves Forest: I am informed by the Departments of Finance and Manpower and Immigration as follows: 1. The federal government cannot in isolation solve the problem of summer employment for students. The solution calls for concerted effort by governments at all levels, employers, the universities, and the students themselves. The contribution of the federal government must be consistant with the overall needs of all who seek work. It is the intention of the Department of Manpower and Immigration on a national basis, to publicize the need for co-operation, to expand existing services, and to intensify all efforts that can in any way contribute to the improvement of the summer employment situation for students.
2.	Yes. Officers of the Department of Manpower and Immigration have already met with representatives of the University and College Planning Association and other concerned associations to study the problem. On the basis of their suggestions, every effort will be made to improve the student employment situation.
3.	The Canada student loans plan was introduced to help assist students to study full time without having to take time out during an academic year to earn a living. Part time
December 18. 1968

students who have a source of income do not require the same measure of assistance. The government therefore does not plan to bring in legislation to make part time students eligible. Loans, by the terms of the act, are authorized only to students in need of a loan in order to pursue their course of studies. Revised federal-provincial agreed criteria are in effect this year on the basis of which need is determined by the provinces. Indications are that they are effective in ensuring that funds are available to those who really need them, and no change is being contemplated to make it easier to obtain loans to those who do not really need assistance. Under the Canada student loans plan, no grants are involved.


C.B.C. PUBLICATIONS
Mr. MacLean: 1.	For each of the last five business years did the CBC Publications operate at a profit or a loss, and what was the profit or loss in each case?
2.	What is the criteria for determining that certain CBC publications are not for sale outside Canada?
3.	What is the gross sale of CBC publications for the last five years (a) total (b) outside Canada?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the C.B.C. as follows:
1.	C.B.C. information services produces a limited number of publications as a further use of C.B.C. broadcast material and these publications are sold at prices intended to recover costs of publication and distribution. In the last five fiscal years net revenues have been as follows: 1963-64, $1,818; 1964-65, $842; 1965-66, $26,873; 1966-67, $31,600; 1967-68, $14,479.
2.	The C.B.C. tries whenever possible to purchase exclusive world publication rights to material. However, the option is always with the author to refuse to sell world rights and to limit the agreement to exclusive Canadian publication rights.
3.	Gross revenue from the sale of C.B.C. publications for the last five fiscal years was $264,672. Sales records are not broken down as to points of origin.


R.C.M.P. IN ONTARIO
Mr. Matte: 1.	How many members of the RCMP were stationed in the Province of Ontario for each of the years from 1960 to 1968 inclusive?
2.	In what areas are the various branches of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police working in the Province of Ontario and how many officers work in each area?
Questions


George James McIlraith: 1.
Head-	Train-	Enforce-	quarters*	ing*	ment	Total1960	483	172	621	1,2761961	602	210	645	1,4571962	643	175	751	1,5691963	766	212	793	1,7711964	726	167	778	1,6711965	772	232	781	1,7851966	806	165	787	1,7581967	922	74	805	1,8011968	1,038	131	900	2,069
*Headquarters and training personnel are stationed in Ottawa but are employed in the administration and training of the force for the whole of Canada and not for that part of the force only employed on law enforcement duties within the province of Ontario. Total

1,169.
2.
Belleville	3
Brockville	4
Chatham	4
Elliot Lake	3
Fort Erie	6
Fort Frances	2
Fort William	7
Goderich	2
Hamilton	27
Kapuskasing	2
Kenora	2
Kingston	12
Kirkland Lake	4
Kitchener	6
London	20
Long Sault	5
Malton	25
Moose Factory	2
Niagara Falls	18
Nipigon	1
North Bay	12
Orillia	4
* Ottawa	312
Owen Sound	3
Parry Sound	2
Pembroke	5
Peterborough	4
Sarnia	11
Sault Ste Marie	12
Simcoe	3
Sudbury	12
Timmins	7
Toronto	332
Windsor	26
Total	900
* includes duties relating to federal government buildings and roadways.

December 18, 1963
Questions


PURCHASE OF NORTHERN SERVICE COMPANIES
Mr. Fortin: 1.	What amount was paid to the N.C.P.C. for the purchase of the assets of (a) Yukon Telephone Syndicate Ltd. (b) Dawson City Water and Power Co. Ltd. and (c) Dawson Electric Light and Power Co. Ltd.?
2.	Were the shares or the assets of said companies purchased?
3.	What was the book value of each of these companies at time of purchase?
4.	What criteria were used to assess the price?
5.	Were the former owners paid in cash or by interest bearing bonds?
6.	Does the N.C.P.C. propose to buy other companies?
7.	Has the N.C.P.C. loaned $32,000,000 to the Newfoundland Power Commission and does it intend to lend an equal amount to Hydro-Quebec and at a similar rate of interest?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. The
amount paid by N.C.P.C. for purchase of the Yukon Telephone Syndicate, Dawson Water and Power Co. Ltd., and the Dawson Electric Light Co. Ltd. was $336,505.00 which included $234,505 cash on hand, hence the net cost was $102,000.
2.	The outstanding shares of the companies were purchased.
3.	Book values of the three companies were as follows: (a) The Yukon Telephone Syndicate, Limited, $19,453.00; (b) The Dawson City Water & Power Co. Ltd.,-$88,419.00; (c) The Dawson Electric Light & Power Co. Ltd., $339,676.00; Total, $270,710.00.
4.	The purchase price was based on the estimated value of the assets of the three companies for use in connection with construction and operation of a new power plant and electrical distribution system and renovation and operation of the water supply system serving the city of Dawson.
5.	Cash.
6.	The N.C.P.C. presently has no plans to purchase other companies.
7.	As of November 30, 1968 the Federal Government has made loans, under the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, which has been administered by the Northern Canada Power Commission, to the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission, totalling $33,293,780. Because the application of the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act is confined, by the terms of the Act, to the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick,

Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland, loans could not be made to Hydro-Quebec under the authority of that Act.


PERPETUAL BONDS
Mr. Rynard: 1.	What is the total number of 3 percent perpetual bonds which are still to be redeemed?
2.	What is the total number of 3 percent perpetual bonds still in the hands of the original owners?
3.	Is the government considering, or has it set, a target date for the redemption of these bonds?
4.	What is the purchasing value of the 1936 dollar in relation to the value of the dollar today?


Edgar John Benson: 1.	The total number of 3 per cent perpetual bonds still to be redeemed is 47,696, and the number currently outstanding in coupon form and fully registered form is 37,135 and 10,561 respectively. (The amounts outstanding in each form are $24,848,500 and $30,151,500 respectively.)
2.	Because coupon bearer bonds pass by delivery it is not known how many coupon bonds are still in the hands of the original owners, but the number of fully registered bonds still in the hands of the original owners is 497 (with a value of $738,500).
3.	No. Under the conditions of issue, these bonds, as the term perpetual bond implies, were given no maturity date although the government did reserve the option to redeem the bonds at par plus accrued interest upon 60 day's notice at any time on or after September 15, 1966. The last coupon on the bearer bond and the coupon registered bond certificates also became payable on September 15, 1966, the date when the government's option began. At that time the government issued new certificates to holders of these bonds with an additional supply of coupons attached thereto sufficient for the next 30 years. The perpetuals continue to have no maturity date.
4.	On the basis of the consumer price index the purchasing power of the 1936 dollar would be about 39 cents today.


HALIFAX LEASE, COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Mr. Coales: 1.	On what date did the Company of Young Canadians secure a lease from the Lord Nelson Hotel, Halifax, N.S., what was the period of the lease and what was the yearly rental for the space in question?
December 18, 1968

2.	On what date does the lease expire and for what period of time did the Company of Young Canadians actually use the place rented or leased and did they endeavour to negotiate a lump sum settlement in lieu of using the space and, if so, what was the result of these negotiations?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Company of Young Canadians as follows: 1. The Company of Young Canadians leased, through the Department of Public Works, 500 square feet net in the Lord Nelson hotel, Halifax, for a period of 5 years beginning August 16, 1966 at an annual rate of $2,640.00.
2. The lease between the Lord Nelson hotel and the Department of Public Works will expire August 15, 1971. The Company of Young Canadians used the offices from August 16, 1966 to September 1, 1967. The Department of Public Works was requested to sub-let the premises for the duration of the lease. It was not possible to negotiate a settlement of the lease in lieu of using the space. Efforts by the Department of Public Works, the Lord Nelson Hotel and the C.Y.C. are continuing to find a new tenant.


CANADA SAVINGS BONDS
Mr. Thompson (Red Deer): 1.	What was the total amount of sales of Canada Savings Bonds for the 1966-67, 1967-68 and the current 1968-69 issues (current issue to date)?
2.	What was the amount of the Canada Savings Bonds issue in each of the above periods?


Edgar John Benson: 1.	Total sales of Canada savings bonds were as follows: Centennial series Oct. 1/66 to Sept. 30/67, $2,422 million; 1967/68 series Oct. 1/67 to Sept. 30/68, $1,526 million; 1968/69 series Oct. 1/68 to Nov. 30/68, $3,219 million.
2.	The total amount of Canada savings bonds outstanding at each of the above dates was as follows: September 30, 1967, $5,779 million; September 30, 1968, $5,575 million; November 30, 1968, $6,462 million.


NATIONAL GALLERY EXHIBITIONS
Mr. Caouelte: 1.	What was the cost of organizing the National Gallery's exhibition "300 years of Canadian Art" from May 12 to September 17, 1967?
2.	What will be the cost of the Jordaens exhibition from November 30, 1968 to January 5, 1969?
3.	Will the French catalogue for the Jordaens exhibition appear at the same time as the English version and, if not, for what reason?
Questions


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the National Museums Corporation as follows: 1. $25,193.00.
2.	The cost of the Jordaens exhibition is estimated at $147,000.
3.	No. The original text was in English and did not arrive on agreed date. Translation was delayed. Editing was exacting and therefore slow. Finally there were production difficulties since there is a limited amount of the type face (Juliana) available in North America so that only one printer could undertake the production.


SATELLITE LAUNCHING CAPABILITY
Mr. Schreyer: 1.	Does Canada Intend to develop a launching capability and actual launching rocket in order to launch its domestic communications satellite?
2.	If not, is it the intention to seek competitive bids from such other countries that can provide this?
3.	If not, for what reason?


Eric William Kierans: In so far as telecommunications is concerned:
1.	No. The white paper on "A Domestic Satellite Communication System for Canada" gives the reasons why it does not appear feasible for Canada to carry out a development program which could lead to a launching facility being available by the probable time a first launch is required.
2.	The white paper states that it appears necessary for Canada to negotiate with other countries to purchase the required launching services for the initial system; and that it is the intention of the government to investigate the potential sources of supply of launch services.
3.	Not applicable.


MARINA MOTEL, SMITHS FALLS, ONT.
Mr. Nesbili: 1.	When does the present government lease on the premises known as the "Marina Motel" at Smiths Falls, Ontario, terminate?
2.	Does the government possess an option to renew this lease and, if so, under what terms?
3.	Has the ownership for the "Marina Motel" changed during the last six months and, if so, who is the new owner?


Gérard Pelletier: I am informed by the Public Service Commission as follows: 1. June 27, 1969.
2. No formal option has been arranged

December 18, 1968
Questions
3.	Yes-Anglo Canadian Hotel, Management Corporation Limited, 825 Eglinton Avenue West, Toronto 10, Ontario.


R.C.M.P. IN QUEBEC
Mr. Godin: 1.	In what cities of the Province of Quebec was the establishment of the RCMP increased?
2.	In each of those cities what was the number of RCMP officers on duty in 1960?
3.	What is that number today?


George James McIlraith: 1. Montreal, Quebec city, Dorval, Joliette, St. Jerome, Chicoutimi, Roberval, Trois-Rivieres, Rimouski, Riviere-du-Loup, Sept, lies, Noranda.
2.	Montreal, 257; Quebec city, 26; Dorval, 2; Joliette, 2; St. Jerome, 2; Chicoutimi, 3; Roberval, 3; Trois-Rivieres, 6; Rimouski, 3; Riviere-du-Loup, 3; Sept-Iles, 4; Noranda, 2.
3.	Montreal, 520; Quebec city, 45; Dorval, 19; Joliette, 3; St. Jerome, 6; Chicoutimi, 4; Roberval, 4; Trois-Rivieres, 14; Rimouski, 4; Riviere-du-Loup, 4; Sept-Iles, 7; Noranda, 3.


PAYMENT OF INDIAN CHIEFS
Mr. Godin: 1.	Are some Indian reserve chiefs paid by the government?
2.	If so, under what terms?
3.	How many such Indian chiefs are there in Canada and in the province of Quebec?
4.	What monthly amount does each receive?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. Chiefs of Indian bands are not paid by the department to carry out their duties as chief.
2.	Not applicable.
3.	Not applicable.
4.	Not applicable.


PRESS RELEASES, SECRETARY OF STATE
Mr. Howard (Skeena): 1.	Does the Department of the Secretary of State of Canada issue documents which are of the nature of press releases, press communiques, news releases or the like and, if so, how many such documents have been issued since July 1, 1963?
2.	What has been the cost of (a) printing headings or cover sheets (b) typing the stencils (c) mimeographing or other form of duplicating (d) collating and stapling (e) addressing and mailing the said documents?
3.	With respect to the paper used for the said documents, what is (a) its quality (b) the quantity used and the cost thereof?

4.	What is the estimate of the number of manhours consumed in the preparation, production and distribution of such documents?


Gérard Pelletier: 1. Since July 1, 1968, nine press releases have been issued in both official languages.
2.	(a) $131.04; (b) $35.00; (c) $56.58; (d) $171.51; (e) $100.00 (approximate).
3.	(a) No. 7 bond white; (b) 25,000 sheets at a cost of $49.50.
4.	150.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, QUEBEC
Mr. Godin: 1.	In connection with the construction of the Trans-Canada Highway in the Province of Quebec, did the federal government make a uniform contribution in all regions?
2.	If the federal government's contribution varied between regions, what are the boundaries of each region and what proportion was paid by the federal government in each case?
3.	How many miles of the Trans-Canada Highway have been built to date in the Province of Quebec and how much has the federal government contributed toward this highway?


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Public Works):: 1. No.
2.	In the Montreal region, from the West end of Isle-aux-Tourtes bridge to the South end of Lafontaine bridge-tunnel, Canada's contribution is 90% of a two lane highway equivalent. Canada's contribution for the remaining section of the highway is 50% of the two lane highway equivalent.
3.	To date, 184.7 miles of the highway are completed to pavement, and another 42.8 miles are under construction. The total of Canada's contribution toward Trans-Canada Highway in the Province of Quebec to date is $153,509,575.39.


WHARF CONSTRUCTION, PINKNEY'S POINT, N.S.
Mr. Comeau: What companies bid for the contract to reconstruct a wharf at Pinkney's Point, N.S. and what were the amounts of these bids?


Arthur Laing: Leonard W. Shaw Sandforth, Yarmouth Co., N.S., $58,828; Bernard & Gerard Lombard Ltd., Corberrie, Digby Co., N.S., $59,990; B & M Comeau Construction Co.
December 18, 1988

Ltd., Little Brook, Digby Co., N.S., $62,992; L. G. & M. H. Smith Ltd., 2700 Oxford Street, Halifax, N.S., $63,983; Mosher & Rawding Ltd., P.O. Box 999, Liverpool, N.S., $71,645; Aberdeen Paving Ltd., Hammonds Plain Road, Bedford, N.S., $81,705.


INVESTIGATION OF ARTIFICIAL SWEETENER
Mr. Woolliams: 1.	Has the Food and Drug Administration investigated a chemical known as "cyclamates" which is used to sweeten diet drinks for children and adults?
2.	If there has been an investigation, what was the result of the same, and is it still being permitted to be used in Canada for the purpose of sweetening diet drinks in question?
3.	Have diet drinks which are imported been tested for this chemical?
Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National
Health and Welfare): 1. Investigations on the cyclamates have been under way in the research laboratories of the food and drug directorate, Department of National Health and Welfare, for several years. Officers of the Directorate also are fully aware of research and investigation on the cyclamates carried out in various other countries.
2.	The studies carried out in the food and drug directorate can be summarized as follows: Subcutaneous injection of cyclamate had no effect on the health of rats. Addition of 1 per cent of cyclamate to a nutritionally adequate diet for rats had no effect on health or performance, but 5 per cent produced loose stools. When 1 per cent cyclamate was added to a low-protein diet for rats, weight gains were reduced. Cyclamate had no effect on the absorption and excretion of the vitamins riboflavin and thiamine in human subjects. The food and drug regulations permit the addition of cyclamates to carbohydrate or calorie-reduced dietetic foods, including so-called diet soft drinks.
3.	No.


TRANSPORTATION OF SICK INDIANS
Mr. Muir (Cape Breion-The Sydneys): 1.	(a) Does the federal government pay all or any part of the cost involved in transporting sick or injured Indians, residents of recognized reserves, to hospitals or other places of treatment (b) in this regard, does the federal government make any distinction between cases requiring urgent or emergency medical assistance and those involving medical examination or consultation (c) if such a distinction is made, upon what grounds?
Questions
2.	(a) In what instances, if any, are Indian
residents of the Eskasoni Reserve in Nova Scotia entitled to federal assistance in connection with transportation to hospitals or other treatment centres and to what degree of assistance (b) in respect of the above, are sick or injured Indians of the Eskasoni Reserve limited as to the hospitals or other treatment centres they may go to for medical assistance and, if so, what are they and where are they located (c) are Indian residents of the Whycocomagh Reserve, Inverness County, Nova Scotia, in the same position as those of the Eskasoni Reserve in regard to assisted transportation of the sick or injured (d) to what hospitals or other centres of medical treatment are Indian residents of the Whycocomagh Reserve directed when medical assistance is required that is not available on the reserve (e) were Indian residents of the Whycocomagh Reserve ever consulted, or was the Band Council consulted, as to their preference in regard to hospitals or other treatment centres before being directed by the government to such places (f) was St. Mary's Hospital, Inverness, excluded from the list of hospitals and other treatment centres to which Indians of the Whycocomagh Reserve were directed by the government (g) if so, why, and upon what date was such direction effective?


Hon. John C. Munro (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: 1. (a) Yes; (b) Yes; (c) The nature of the illness.
2. (a) Assistance is provided for: Transportation required for emergency cases where the need for a properly equipped ambulance is indicated, transportation required for investigation or treatment requested by public health agencies, transportation required when referred by an attending physician to a major medical centre, transportation required for transfers between hospitals for specialist treatment, transportation required for treatment at the discretion of the attending physician from a reserve to a distant hospital when the local hospital lacks the facilities to care for the specific case; (b) Yes. The primary treatment centre is the medical services clinic in Sydney, staffed by two fulltime medical officers, who also hold clinics on the reserve. Hospitalization is at either Sydney hospital, or Halifax if required; (c) Yes; (d) Usually those at Baddeck or Inverness; when specialized care is required, Sydney and/or Halifax; (e) Yes; (f) No; (g) Not applicable.


TRAINING OF PENITENTIARY WARDENS
Mr. Caoueile: Have wardens or other supervising officials in the penitentiaries of Canada been required since 1965 to follow training courses after being hired and, if so (a) what does their training consist of (b) in what language are the courses given?
Questions

December 18, 1968


George James McIlraith: Correctional officers or other officers detailed for custodial duties in the penitentiaries of Canada have, since 1964, been required to undertake a nine (9) week training course at one of the three Correctional Staff Colleges operated by the Canadian Penitentiary Service. Successful completion of the course is a prerequisite to employment in the Canadian
Penitentiary Service.
(a) The training consists of:
Topic	Periods
Organization of the Canadian Penitentiary Service	31
Introduction to Correctional	Work 92
Behavioural Science	Training	52
Weapons Training	32
Emergency Control-Fire, Power
Failure	16
Physical Training	26
Self-Defence	26
Administration and Review
Periods	50
(b) Courses conducted at the Correctional Staff College (Quebec) are given in the French language. Courses conducted at the other two Colleges in Ontario and British Columbia are given in the English language.


TIMBER HOLDINGS, GLACIER NATIONAL PARK
Mr. Harding: 1.	How many private timber holdings are there in Glacier National Park, who is the registered owner of each holding and what is the acreage involved in each?
2.	Does the Trans-Canada Highway in Glacier National Park cut through any of the private timber holdings?
3.	Is the federal government currently negotiating to purchase the private timber holdings in Glacier National Park and, if so, when are the negotiations likely to be concluded?
4.	Are there any privately held mineral claims in Glacier National Park and, if so, how many claims are held, who is the registered owner of each and what is the acreage involved in each case?


Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien: 1. (a) There are six timber berths in Glacier national park; (b) Ownership of the cutting rights and acreage of each are: Timber berth 40, 3,789 acres; Timber berth 328, 1,280 acres; Timber berth

329, 1,683 acres; Timber berth 292, 4,000 acres; Timber berth 342, 7,603 acres; the above timber berths are held by Kicking Horse Forest Products Ltd. of Golden, B.C.; Timber berth 117, 2,029 acres; the above timber berth is held by Selkirk Spruce Mills Ltd. of Donald, B.C.
2. Yes. Timber berths 40 and 117.
3 (a) Yes; (b) It is not known at this time when negotiations are likely to be concluded.
4.	(a) Yes; (b) Two. "Round Hill" claim- 20.66 acres, owned by Mr. Otto A. Woolsey, Kelowna, B.C.; "Elizabeth" claim-approximately 25 acres, owned by Mr. B. C. McCorkell of Vancouver.


'MINISTERIAL CODE OF ETHICS
Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breion-: East Richmond):
Is the code of ethics issued by the former Prime Minister to his colleagues on November 30, 1964, still a matter of government policy?


Righi Hon.   P.-E. Trudeau@Prime Minister: The so-called code of ethics was not a matter of government policy.


An hon. Member:: You don't have one.


Mr. Hees:: Explain.


Mr. Trudeau:: It took the form of a letter from the former prime minister to the members of his cabinet as to the standards that he, as prime minister, wished to have observed by those he had appointed as ministers, as well as by their staffs. Shortly after the present government took office I drew the attention of my colleagues to the letter and associated myself with the standards it described.


EXTENSION OF HARBOUR FACILITIES, ST. JOHN'S, NFLD.
Mr. Carter: Does the government have any plans to extend its facilities in St. John's (Newfoundland) harbour and, if so, when will work commence?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Pursuant to the provisions of the National Harbours Board Act and the Financial Administration Act, the budget of the board has been submitted to the government for approval of 1969 capital expenditures, and on approval details will be available of proposed works at national harbours, including St. John's harbour.
December 18, 1968


OIL IMPORTS AND EXPORTS
Mr. Harding: 1.	From what countries and in what volume was oil imported in the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive?
2.	To what countries and in what volume was Canadian oil sold in the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive?
3.	In the years 1961 to 1967 inclusive, what was the total value of Canadian oil (a) imports (b) exports?


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce):: The Dominion Bureau of Statistics reports that: 1, 2 and 3. The total
Questions
volume and value of imports and exports of "crude petroleum" for the years 1961 to 1967 are given in the attached table. Full details of imports of "crude petroleum" by countries can be obtained from the December issues of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics publication "Trade of Canada, Imports by Commodities" (catalogue number 65-007) 1961 to 1967, commodity class 7153 for the years 1961 to 1963 and commodity class 264-10 for the years 1964 to 1967, which are available for reference in all public libraries and in the parliamentary library.


CANADA'S IMPORTS AND EXPORTS OF &quot;CRUDE PETROLEUM&quot; FOR THE YEARS 1961 TO 1967
[Stage Direction]
Imports	Exports
Commodity Total	Total Commodity	Total	TotalYear	Class	Quantity	Value	Class	Country Quantity	Valuebbl.	$'000	bbl.	$'0001961	... 7153	133,249,113	291,170	264-10 United States 64,146,897'	152,334'1962	
7153	134,517,707	304,898	264-10	"	91,580,232	232,4971963	
7153	147,720,870	334,761	264-10	"	90,875,816	233!s671964	
264-10	143,530,957	320,637	264-10	"	101,258,926	262,0231965	
264-10	144,184,281	312,259	26«0	"	108,010,297	279^9561966	
264-10	146,076,898	299,001	264-10	"	123,691,342	321,6811967	
264-10	170,418,463'	355,416'	264-10	"	150,344,567	397'875Totals	
1,019,698,289	2,218,142	729,908,077	1,880,233
' Revised figures.

Mr. Rodrigue: What amounts were paid to the Province of Quebec under the Canadian Students' Loans Act (c. 24, Statutes of 1964-5) for the years 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967?


Edgar John Benson: Loan year 1964-65, $74,262, paid in fiscal year 1965-66; loan year 1965-66, $757,448; paid in fiscal year 1966-67; loan year 1966-67, $1,230,572, paid in fiscal year 1967-68; loan year 1967-68, $2,402,552, paid in fiscal year 1968-69.


GRANT FOR BATHROOM RESEARCH
Mr. McCleave: 1.	Did Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation recently grant approximately $75,000 to Crane Canada Limited for bathroom and plastic research?
2.	Were other firms considered and on what basis was the Crane company chosen?
3.	Did the Crane company initiate the proposal for such research?
4.	Will the results of the research be made public?
5.	Will the achievements arising from the research become public property and available to Crane's competitors?
6.	Can companies in competition with Crane make requests for similar grants and will such be seriously considered?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: 1. Yes.
2.	After several years of discussion with various companies in both Canada and the United States to encourage research and development in this area, Crane Canada Limited submitted a proposal. Some of the companies involved, besides Crane Canada Limited, were American Standards Limited, Dupont of Canada Limited and Naugatuck Chemicals Limited as well as scientists from universities and government departments.
3.	As explained in answer 2, above, Crane Canada Limited was the only party of all those approached to submit a proposal.

December 18, 1968
Questions
4.	Yes.
5.	The benefits of this research will accrue to the public of Canada, and if there are positive results and they are not pursued, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has maintained the right to pursue or encourage the development of further work based on the results from this program which will benefit the people of Canada as well as Crane Canada Limited and other Canadian companies.
6.	Yes. If any company can develop a sound reasonable proposal for research and development that will lead to better housing or products for housing for Canadians, financial support under the National Housing Act can be obtained.


INSPECTION OF SEED POTATOES
Mr. McQuaid: 1.	Does the government propose to charge a fee for the inspection of all seed potatoes entered for certification?
2.	If so (a) when will this new rule commence (b) what will be the fee charged (c) who will be responsible for the collection of the fee (d) when will the fee be collected (e) will a farmer be refused inspection if he cannot pay the fee?
Kon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture):
1. The assessment of fees for services provided by the department is under review and should a decision be made to charge a fee for seed potato certification an announcement will be made outlining all conditions.
2. See answer to 1.


'IMMIGRATION APPEALS FROM WEST OF OTTAWA
Mr. Haidasz: 1.	How many applications to the Immigration Appeal Board have been received from points West of Ottawa?
2.	How many applications were received from Metropolitan Toronto?
3.	When will an Immigration Appeal Board Court be established in Toronto?


Hon. Allan J. MacEachen (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: The answer to the first part of the question is that 823 appeals have been received from points west of Ottawa.
The answer to the second part of the question is that there are no available statistics relative to appeals received from metropolitan Toronto. However, 588 were received from the province of Ontario.
[Mr. Hellyer.l
The answer to the third part of the question is that the establishment of an immigration appeal board in Toronto is dependent upon the results of the current experimental extension project put in operation in Montreal last October.


'IMMIGRATION APPEALS FROM EAST OF OTTAWA
Mr. Haidasz: 1.	How many applications to the Immigration Appeal Board have been received from points East of Ottawa?
2.	How many applications have been received from the Montreal area?
3.	Is there an Immigration Appeal Board Court hearing cases in Montreal?
4.	Who are the members of the Immigration Appeal Board Court sitting in Montreal?
5.	Are any of these members permanently assigned to Montreal?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The answer to the first part of the question is that 351 appeals have been received from points east of Ottawa.
The answer to the second part of the question is that there are no available statistics relative to appeals received from the Montreal area. However, 315 appeals were received from the province of Quebec.
The answer to the third part of the question is that there is an immigration appeal board hearing cases in Montreal, which was established on an experimental basis.
The answer to the fourth part of the question is that Mr. J.-P. Geoffroy, vice chairman, is sitting in Montreal assisted by two members who travel to Montreal from Ottawa when the board is in session.
The answer to the fifth part of the question is that no members have been permanently assigned to Montreal.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Fortin: 1.	For each of the Crown corporations called proprietary corporations within the meaning of the Financial Administration Act, who are the members of the board of management (i.e. vicepresident, secretary, treasurer)?
2,	Among the members of the board of management, how many (a) speak French only (b) speak English only (c) are bilingual?
December 18, 1983

3.	By whom are the members of the board of management appointed, for what term and at what salary?
Return tabled.


PURCHASING POLICY OF CROWN CORPORATIONS
Mr. Fortin: 1.	During the last fiscal year, how much was purchased by each of the so-called proprietary corporations, as defined in the Financial Administration Act?
2.	For each of these corporations, what is the proportion of purchases (a) of Canadian products (b) of foreign products?
3.	Do these corporations have a purchasing policy which gives preference to Canadian firms and, if so, what is the exact nature of this purchasing policy?
4.	If Crown corporations do not have a purchasing policy, does the government intend to issue a directive to give preference to Canadian business and purchase Canadian products?
5.	Does the government intend to introduce legislation similar to the "Buy American Act"?
Return tabled.


RESEARCH INTO AIR SUPPORTED POLYDOMES
Mr. Diefenbaker: 1.	What is the attitude of the government toward research into the feasibility and construction of air-supported polydome structures?
2.	Have any funds been earmarked by the government for research and construction in this experimental field?
3.	If so, what is the amount, and how is it being expended?
4.	If not, what steps does the government plan to take in regard to development of structures of this type?
Return tabled.


VALUE FOR DUTY ON U.S. CORN
Mr. Danforih: 1.	Was added value for duty on American commercial corn entering Canada a government decision or was it by negotiation with the U S authorities?
2.	If by agreement rather than government action, was compensation granted to the U.S. and, if so, in what form?
3.	Was it possible for the Canadian Government to apply fair value for duty under existing legislation without negotiation or compensation?
4.	Was the imposition of recent increases in American rates of duty on Canadian cut-flowers entering the U.S. by agreement or negotiation with Canadian authorities and, if so, was compensation granted to Canada at the time?
Return tabled.
Motions for Papers


BONDED DEBT OF ALL GOVERNMENTS
Mr. MacLean: 1.	Since 1900, at approximately five-year intervals, what are the figures for the bonded net debt, less sinking funds, of the federal government?
2.	Since 1927, at approximately five-year intervals, what was the bonded net debt, less sinking funds of (a) each of the provinces (b) the aggregate for all other levels of government in Canada, including school boards, where figures are available?
3.	What is the estimated aggregate personal debt of all Canadians for the date at which the latest figures are available, and back over the last twenty years at approximately five-year intervals?
Return tabled.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions for production of papers Nos. 4 and 52 are agreeable to the government.


Mrs. Grace Maclnnis (Vancouver-Kings-way):: Mr. Speaker, I am rising to inquire about a motion for the production of papers. Is this the proper place to do so? On October 30 this house passed an order for the production of papers which I had requested under motion No. 17, concerning the British Columbia hydro rail route from the Matsqui area to Roberts Bank. Nothing happened by November 22, so on that date I asked the President of the Privy Council when these papers would become available. He said he would be glad to look into it. I should like to ask now whether he has looked into it, or whether perhaps the Minister of Transport or somebody else in the cabinet has looked into this matter.


Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council):: Consultations are now under way, Mr. Speaker.


Winona Grace MacInnis: May
I put the same question to the Minister of Transport, then. Is he the proper minister to ask?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I think so, Mr. Speaker. I am not quite sure of the reason for the delay, but I am willing to find out as quickly as I can.


Winona Grace MacInnis: Could the minister find out before Christmas?

December 18, 1968
Motions for Papers


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I think so, Mr. Speaker, it the opposition do not throw my officials out of the gallery. They are keeping tabs on these things. I will find out and let my hon. friend know as soon as possible.


Yves Forest: Mr. Speaker, notice of motion No. 37 is agreeable to the government subject to the usual reservations concerning privileged papers and authorization of the government authorities concerned.
Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining notices of motions be allowed to stand.


Mr. Ambrose Hubert Peddle (Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador):: Mr. Speaker, I presume that if it was in order for the hon. lady to introduce the subject which she did, I could have a moment on a similar subject.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member may have a moment.


Ambrose Hubert Peddle: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. You will never know how much I appreciate this.
[DOT] (3:00 p.m.)
On September 20, Mr. Speaker-that was 89 days ago and a few days after the opening of this parliament-I caused to be placed on the order paper of this house notice of motion for the production of papers No. 8. On the same date about which the hon. lady complains, October 30, according to Hansard my motion was agreed to by the government. I have made a number of inquiries since, as the hon. lady has, but nothing has been acknowledged. I suggest that during the time which has elapsed I could have obtained similar information from the government of the supreme Soviet.



C.N.R. PAYMENTS IN LIEU OF MUNICIPAL TAXES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 4-Mr. McCleave:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of the Order in Council or other document setting out the authorization and terms under which the Canadian National Railways will make payments to municipalities in lieu of taxes.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 37-Mr. Burton:
That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this House a copy of any agreements between the Government of Canada and the Government of Saskatchewan with respect to the occupational training of adults.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 52-Mr. McCleave:
That an Order of the House do issue for a copy of the letter sent to Mr. Lome Mahoney of the Canadian Radio-Television Commission on or about November 27th to radio stations.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Robert L. Stanfield (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take advantage of the visit to the House of Commons by the Minister of Transport to ask him a question about the Toronto international airport, to follow up information which I sought from the Minister without Portfolio some time ago. Has the minister received from the province of Ontario any communication arising out of a recent meeting between municipal officials from the area concerned and members of the provincial government on that subject? Can the minister give us the substance of any such communication?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: There have been discussions between the two governments as late as yesterday. I hope to be in a position to make an announcement later this week.


George Harris Hees: May I ask a supplementary question. I wonder if the minister or his department have considered the suggestion I presented a short time ago, that consideration be given to locating the international airport between Toronto and Montreal because of the congestion in those two cities, and specifically if the area south of Picton could be given serious consideration.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: May I ask a supplementary question?
December 18, 1968	COMMONS


Mr. Speaker:: Is the Leader of the Opposition asking a question supplementary to his own question?


Robert Lorne Stanfield: Supplementary to my own question, Mr. Speaker, and not supplementary to the question asked by my colleague. I wonder whether the Minister of Transport or his minister have consulted with the Ontario municipal board with regard to the zoning restrictions currently in force on the land the department is considering expropriating?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, Mr. Speaker; it was the minister of municipal affairs with whom I was talking yesterday.



VOCATIONAL AND TECHNICAL TRAINING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Lewis (York South):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Immigration arising out of a matter that has been drawn to his attention previously. Will the minister inform the house what success he has had in getting vocational training schools to remain open to continue their work during the period between Christmas and New Year's, so the trainees may continue to receive their allowances during that period?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: We have had considerable success, Mr. Speaker. I think in the vast majority of cases trainees will be able to continue their courses during the holiday period. I will make an up to date check and advise my hon. friend later in the week.


David Lewis: I assume from the minister's answer there are some cases where this will not happen. I should like to ask the minister whether he is intending to pay allowances to trainees who are kept out of school by the closing of schools, or to make some other arrangement so the trainees who are totally dependent on their allowances are not put to considerable hardship during this period.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, as my hon. friend realizes, the solution to this problem is to encourage the provision of instruction during the holiday period. We have suggested to the provinces that we would accept tutoring or classroom instruction aside from the regular instruction during this period. We are not permitted under the law to pay trainees
DEBATES	4117
Inquiries of the Ministry allowances unless the trainees are in classes. We are permitted to pay allowances on statutory holidays, which we propose to do. The real solution to the problem is to encourage instruction during the holiday period.


David Lewis: That is what I meant by "other arrangements".


Mr. A. P. Gleave (Saskaloon-Biggar):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Surely some means can be found to avoid the real hardship that is going to be involved in some cases-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member's supplementary question is argumentative.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Henri Latulippe (Compton):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Agriculture.
In view of the many representations made by farmers in my riding with a view to an increased dairy quota, which is now set at 300,000 lbs, would the minister tell the house if he intends to accede to these requests?


Hon. H. A. Olson (Minister of Agriculture):: I believe a meeting was held on December 2, Mr. Speaker, with the people from across Canada who advise the department on dairy policy. We do not intend to change quotas between now and the beginning of the new dairy year on April 1, 1969. However, in keeping with the recommendations that have been made, the new dairy policy in the new year may not be exactly the same as it has been during the past year.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Heaih Macquarrie (Hillsborough):: My
question is for the Postmaster General. In light of the sharp decrease across the country in the mailing of Christmas cards under the 5 cent postage rate, which might be an illustration of the law of diminishing returns, is the minister now reappraising the value of this postal rate hike in pursuit of a balanced post office budget?
4118	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry


Eric William Kierans: Mr. Speaker, I too receive Christmas cards. Last night I received one which said "Dear Eric: I think of you with every Christmas card I write". The actual volume of Christmas mail varies with the actual day of the week on which Christmas falls. It is far too early to say there will be a 20 per cent drop, or indeed any drop. It is true that up to the day before yesterday the actual volume that had gone through post offices had dropped. However, Christmas comes in the middle of next week and people may be delaying the mailing of cards.
On the other hand we have other evidence that the actual sale of stamps, including 6 cent stamps, has gone up considerably, while the sale of 5 cent stamps has held even. It is impossible for me to tell at this time what the situation will be. In addition I am quite curious, for example, to compare the results in last November with this November-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I think if the minister wishes to go into details he will have to ask leave to return to motions.


Heath Nelson Macquarrie: I have a supplementary question which relates to another possible miscalculation. May I ask the minister if steps are being taken to repair or cure-I don't know which word is correct-the computer which allegedly is responsible for shortchanging many of his employees in their pay cheques?


Eric William Kierans: Mr. Speaker, I could answer this question-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have to call on the hon. member for Edmonton West.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: My
question is for the Minister of Finance. Was the increase of one half of one per cent in the bank rate announced by the governor of the bank of Canada yesterday tied in in any way with the visit of the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States? Were any arrange-ements made by the Canadian government and the United States government?


Edgar John Benson: In
no way, Mr. Speaker.

DEBATES	December 18, 1968


Mr. Walter C. Carter (St. John's West):: May
I ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Finance. Yesterday I directed a question to the Minister of Transport which I have since learned should have been directed to the Minister of Finance. Will the minister inform the house if it is contemplated that the interest rate under the National Housing Act will be increased from the current 8f per cent to a new rate of 9J per cent?


Edgar John Benson: As my hon. friend knows, Mr. Speaker, there are automatic adjustments to the N.H.A. rate, depending on the long term borrowing rate of the government.



WHEAT-REQUEST FOR REPORT ON NEGOTIATIONS WITH RUSSIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gordon Riichie (Dauphin):: I should like
to direct a question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. Can the minister now inform the house the results of the recent visit to Moscow by officials of the wheat board concerning wheat sales to the Soviet union?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, I have been advised by the Canadian Wheat Board that they have had preliminary discussions in Moscow concerning the quantities that remain to be purchased by the U.S.S.R. under the long term agreement signed in 1966. These discussions will be resumed shortly.


Mr. Paul Yewchuck (Athabasca):: A supplementary question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. My question pertains to the announcement made by-


Mr. Diefenbaker:: Mr. Speaker, I was rising to ask a supplementary question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I understand the hon. member for Athabasca has a supplementary question.


Paul Yewchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was saying that my question pertains to the announcement by the Canadian International Development Agency that Canada is making a gift of wheat to India. Could the hon. gentleman assure the house that India has been consulted and is prepared to receive and will not reject this gift of wheat when it arrives?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.
December 18. 1968



ACREAGE PAYMENTS TO ASSIST IN PURCHASE OF DRYING EQUIPMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to get up to date now that both the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Agriculture, these peripatetic ministers of the government, are present in the chamber. May I ask the minister of trade and commerce whether, in view of the fact that it is estimated that the cost of drying some 300 million bushels of wheat will be approximately $30 million and that only one third of the damp wheat will be dried by May 1 unless action is taken, consideration is being given to the provision of something in the nature of acreage payments, so that the farmers will be able to finance themselves, in part, to purchase these $10,000 machines?
On the other hand-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The right hon. gentleman's time has expired.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, we see these ministers so seldom that naturally there is an accumulation of questions. Possibly the minister would be able to give the house something today other than a smile, so the western farmers will know what the government is planning to do.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, several policies have been announced which, I suggest to the right hon. gentleman, are far more effective in getting grain dried than would be acreage payments -for example, doubling cash advances, and doubling the capacity of the grain dryer at the Saskatoon terminal elevator. The co-operation we have had from the grain industry and the provincial departments of agriculture indicates that everything reasonable that can be done is being done.


John George Diefenbaker: Does the minister accept the view that at the present rate of drying only one third of the wheat that is wet or damp will be dried by May 1? Would the minister also tell the house how many bushels a day are being dried at the elevator now that the capacity of the Saskatoon elevator has been increased?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: At the present time the capacity at the Saskatoon terminal is about 1,000 bushels an hour, and twice that is 2,000 bushels an hour.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Ed Schreyer (Selkirk):: A supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture. The minister is aware that some of the governments of the prairie provinces have been undertaking a program to assist farmers in the drying of grain on farm or at country elevators. May I ask the minister whether the federal government has any program in mind to assist the provincial governments in any on-farm grain drying efforts?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Discussions have been held between officers of my department and the provincial departments of agriculture, and I think also officials of the Canadian Wheat Board, in regard to further assistance that may be useful. These discussions have been going on for a long time. So far as specific proposals are concerned, these have been made known to the various communities. I could go over the list but it is rather long.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio, the hon. member for Port Arthur, in his capacity as the real minister of Indian affairs. May I ask him whether before Friday, which appears to be the last day on which we will be here, he will make a statement on motions as to the position of the government with respect to the document "Indians and the Law" which was prepared in August, 1967.
Hon. Robert K. Andras (Minister without
Portfolio): Mr. Speaker, without accepting the premise contained in the hon. member's comments, I will give that matter consideration.



INQUIRY AS TO SIGNING OF INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce. On October 25 he advised the house that the government had accepted the text of a new sugar agreement that had been adopted by the United Nations sugar conference. I should like to ask the minister whether Canada has signed this international sugar agreement.


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, the cabi-
4120
December 18. 1968

Inquiries of the Ministry net approved the international sugar agreement yesterday, and the signing normally will follow.



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Sleven E. Paproski (Edmonion Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct this question to the Secretary of State. Arising from the undertaking of the minister on October 29 to reply before November 30 to the application of the Metropolitan Edmonton Educational Television Association for a temporary broadcasting licence, will the minister say whether a decision has been reached and, if so, what it is and whether it has been communicated to the interested parties?


Gérard Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, unless my memory fails me seriously, I have never promised that a decision would be reached before November 30, if I understood correctly. The dates of the hon. member do not coincide with mine, or else there is an error in the transcription because, according to the calendar we set up, we intend to settle the matter before January 30, if possible.


Steve Eugene Paproski: Mr. Speaker, I had a little trouble in getting instant translation of the minister's reply, and I was wondering whether the dates he mentioned were the dates he gave one of his colleagues on the other side of the house who represents one of the other constituencies in Edmonton. I should like to ask a supplementary question. Will the minister say whether one of the problems in eaching a decision is that the government jonsiders MEETA a provincial agency, which would therefore make it ineligible for a broadcasting licence?


Gérard Pelletier: No, Mr. Speaker, under the present circumstances, that objection does not in any way interfere with our plans.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barney Danson (York Norih):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary 
of State. While fully understanding the need for the greatest possible latitude in the preservation of free speech, could the Secretary of State enlighten the house on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation action which allowed Sir Oswald Mosley to appear on the program "Front Page Challenge" last Monday night to disseminate repugnant propaganda, presumably having paid him to come here to do so?



THE CANADIAN ECONOMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the opinions expressed recently in various parts of the country by economists, summed up by the headline in the Globe and Mail for Friday, December 13 which read "Accelerating price rises show pressure of inflation returning"-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member should not make a speech but ask a question.


George Harris Hees: As has been said, Mr. Speaker, you have to give these ministers a lot of background information. My question is this. In view of these facts, does the government intend to continue to rely on the measures contained in the budget to control the rising cost of living and inflation, or can we expect some new initiative to be presented in the near future?


Mr. Speaker:: I doubt whether the question should be allowed. It is very general in scope and I would think that in those terms it should not be accepted.


George Harris Hees: Could I put it in more specific terms then. In view of the evidence which has been given recently of the rise in the cost of living, and inflation, does the government intend in the near future to adopt new initiatives to control this situation?


Edgar John Benson: It
is good to hear the hon. member being more specific.


George Harris Hees: It was to get the minister into the act.


Edgar John Benson: I think the governor of the Bank of Canada took action yesterday with that in mind.
December 18. 1958


George Harris Hees: Is that what the government is relying on to stop the rise in the cost of living?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


George Harris Hees: We shall be watching.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This is a short day and a short question period. Perhaps we could try to move along.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldcn M. Woolliams (Calgary Norih):: My question is directed to the Minister of Justice. Is it the intention to bring in the omnibus bill relating to the Criminal Code before the house adjourns, in view of the fact that the opposition has agreed there will be no debate on the resolution stage?


Hon. John N. Turner (Minisier of Justice):: The resolution preceding the omnibus bill is now in Votes and Proceedings. It could be called tomorrow if there were unanimous consent to have the resolution passed without debate, in which case the bill could be read the first time and published so that hon. members would see it before the adjournment.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: We still agree, Mr. Speaker.


Some hon. Members:: Do it now.


Mr. Bernard Dumont (Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, I would have liked to put a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Justice a while ago, but I believe you did not hear me.
Is the minister acquainted with Dr. Serge Mongeau's report against the legalization of abortion?



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Monteith (Perth):: I should like to address a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Has the department made any attempt to have beads made with 29180-261J
Inquiries of the Ministry poisonous tropical beans recalled from sale by trades people?


John Carr Munro: Yes, the department has done so. We find they have been on sale in Montreal and that they were sold at the exhibition, Man and His World, during the summer. I might say for the information of the house that these beans are a bright, glossy scarlet in colour and that one tip is a deep black. The food and drug directorate has checked many distribution centres and retail outlets in Vancouver, Toronto, Winnipeg, St. John's (N.B.), Halifax and Moncton with negative results. The investigation is being carried on. The beads are known to be lethal if taken.


Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe Norih):: Has the
minister taken steps to warn the people of the danger, through television and other media?


John Carr Munro: We are resorting to every means possible to get this information out to the Canadian people.



STORAGE ON SHIPS AT LAKEHEAD DURING WINTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Les Benjamin (Regina-Lake Centre):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. I know this is a short question period, but we have not seen him for five days. What action is being taken to make provision for storage of grain on lake freighters and sea-going freighters at the lakehead during the winter?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: will have to take the question as notice, because several agencies are involved in making arrangements of that kind.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Marvin Howe: I have a question for the President of the Privy Council in his capacity as leader of the house. In view of the fact that tomorrow the committee on health, welfare and social affairs begins its study of the whole cigarette problem, would the hon. gentleman have the bill which I introduced into the house today referred to that committee for study?
December 18. 1968

Inquiries of the Ministry


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Yes, Mr. Speaker. If we could have unanimous consent perhaps an order could be made:
That the bill introduced this day by the hon. member for Wellington-Grey be not now read the second time but that the subject matter of the said bill be referred to the standing committee on health, welfare and social affairs.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it so ordered?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



RURAL DEVELOPMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. James A. McGrath (St. John's East):: have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. In view of the likelihood that a number of fish plants will close down as a result of government inaction-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


James Aloysius McGrath: -will the government reappraise the federal-provincial centralization and resettlement program with a view to deferring action? I am thinking now of a statement the minister made-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member should ask a question, not present an argument. He knows that a question should not provoke debate and should not contain allegations.


James Aloysius McGrath: May I rephrase my question then. Last night on national television the minister said mistakes had been made in the government's centralization program in Newfoundland. In view of this admission and the serious consequences of government policy for the groundfish industry in Newfoundland, will the minister reappraise this whole centralization program with a view to deferring further action?


Hon. Jack Davis (Minisfer of Fisheries):: We
are constantly reappraising programs-programs which, incidentally, offer record levels of assistance. We are seeking to improve the centralization program, and I am sure this will help the industry as well.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breion-The Sydneys):: I wish to direct a question to the

Minister of Transport. Now that the minister has returned from some three months of junketeering, questioneering and electioneering-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I have to again remind hon. members that the purpose of the question period is to seek information, not to provoke debate and argument.


Robert Muir: That is the furthest thought from my mind, Mr. Speaker.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Robert Muir: On
the subject of housing, when will the hon. gentleman be in a position to give to parliament and the nation the benefit of his findings in the form of new, positive and constructive policy to provide homes for Canadians?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am very happy to see this evidence of interest on the part of the hon. member in this serious national problem. I hope it is an indication of unqualified support when I bring in exactly the kind of report he has just described.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: I wonder whether the minister is considering replying to the question now.


Robert Muir: I rise on a point of order. Since the minister was prevented from giving a reply by members of his own party, could he not be allowed to give his answer, now?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I was merely about to add that the task force has completed its preliminary consideration of the findings evidence which was presented to it. I am most grateful to the members of the task force for their really outstanding efforts during the last few strenuous weeks. It is hoped we shall be in a position to report to the country during the month of January and that I shall be able to present a report formally to parliament at that time.
So, Mr. Speaker, it is to be hoped that not too long afterwards the government of Canada will be in a position to indicate what action, if any-and I hope there will be-it will take based on the report.
December 18, 1968	COMMONS



NATIONAL CAPITAL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Martial Asselin (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the hon. Minister of Forestry and Rural Development.
Could he tell us whether the government intends to discuss with the provinces of Quebec and Ontario a proposal for the dissolution of the National Capital Commission and its replacement by a bipartite or tripartite agency?


Mr. Speaker:: I wonder if the question is really urgent. If the hon. member believes that there is some urgency, I shall allow the hon. minister to answer the question.


Martial Asselin: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I asked the question because I think that a federal-provincial conference will be held soon and parliament should know the attitude of the government in this matter.


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Forestry and Rural Development):: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter which is being discussed by the three governments and since the discussions are continuing, I am not in a position to report to the house today.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the un-ubiquitous Minister of Transport. Is it a fact that the Air Transport Board has turned down the application of KLM air line to land at Toronto? If so, has this jeopardized the position of Canadian Pacific Airlines with respect to landing rights in the Netherlands?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to direct the hon. gentleman's question to the Canadian Transport Commission.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the reply the Minister of Transport made to my question was that he would refer it to the Air Transport Board. Recently at
DEBATES	4123
Inquiries of the Ministry hearings of the transport committee we were told by the head of the Canadian Transport Commission that treaties regarding landing privileges of air lines were entirely a ministerial responsibility, and he could not answer such questions. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Transport should at least try to find the answer, because the head of the Canadian Transport Commission has told us that he cannot answer these questions.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Mark MacGuigan (Windsor-Walkerville):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In light of the fact that the United States department of defence this week has given a special briefing to congressmen from the Michigan area on the potential placing near Detroit of anti-ballistic missiles armed with hydrogen warheads, does the minister intend to make presentations to the United States government regarding possible dangers to Canadian population centres?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member has made a representation to the government.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and with respect, I submit that the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville not only made a representation but that he did ask a question to which I think the house would like an answer.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The minister of external affairs.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, did you say "external" or "internal"?


Mr. Bell:: Infernal.


Mr. Speaker:: The Secretary of State for
External Affairs.
Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Secretary of State for
External Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the governments of Canada and the United States are in consultation at all times with respect to the defence of North America.


Stanley Howard Knowles: am sorry I raised the point of order. The answer wasn't worth it.

December 18, 1968
Anti-Dumping Duties
The house resumed from Tuesday, December 17, consideration in committee of Bill No. C-146, respecting the imposition of antidumping duty1-Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale) for Mr. Benson-Mr. Faulkner in the chair.


The Chairman:: Order. House again in committee of the whole on Bill C-146, an act respecting the imposition of anti-dumping duty. When the committee rose last evening clause 19, with an amendment, was under consideration. I shall reread the amendment which was moved by the hon. member for Edmonton West:
That clause 19(1) be amended by deleting all the words after "the" in line 31 and by adding the words "date of the publication of the decision in the Canada Gazette".


Mr. Gray:: Mr. Chairman, after the house rose yesterday evening I asked the officials of the departments concerned to give very careful consideration to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Edmonton West, and very careful consideration has been given to it. As I said yesterday evening, it is a question of some difference of opinion, not on ways but on means, since there is no doubt the government wishes to give full opportunity for the lodging of appeals under the provisions of clause 19 to those who are interested in doing so.
However, it should be noted, Mr. Chairman, that in none of the briefs presented to the standing committee nor in any of the briefs presented to the interdepartmental committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Glass was there any complaint made by either importers, exporters or manufacturers, about the time or method of filing notice of appeal under clause 19. In other words, those who would be concerned with the provisions of clause 19 did not appear to foresee the possible difficulties that were foreseen by the hon. member who moved the amendment.
I should also like to draw to the attention of the hon. member that the clause seems to cover appeals from two kinds of decisions of the deputy minister, those under clause 17(1) and those under clause 18(4). I am advised it is only for those decisions under clause 17(1) that there must be publication of the decision in the Canada Gazette. Therefore the method proposed by the hon. member would not, in my respectful opinion and submission, achieve the aim he has in mind.
I might add one or two other points because I want to demonstrate that serious consideration is being and has been given to

the points he has raised. If there continues to be difference of opinion, it is not because of any difference of aims with respect to the wide provision of notice of appeal.
As I was saying, Mr. Chairman, this subclause relates to imports, in other words the individual entry of goods, after an order or finding of a tribunal that there has been injury caused by dumping, and it is considered to be quite different in scope from the "determination" of the deputy minister under clause 17(1). It is at this point in the scheme of legislation that the change is made from looking at the dumping of a series of imports to levying the duty entry by entry, while clause 18(4) relates to the liability for duty on a particular entry after a finding of injury.
The appeal scheme to which I have made reference, from customs appraisers to the deputy minister and then to the Tariff Board, which is proposed here, is a precise parallel to the provisions in the Customs Act. In the committee hearings no one proposed that the deputy minister's determinations on individual entries be made public because generally these provisions are considered by business communities to be of a fair and reasonable nature. It might also be argued that further publicity at this stage, before an importer may decide to appeal to the Tariff Board, might be considered by some as a harassment and deterrent to the use of appeal.
It could also be argued that from the export point of view publicity of this sort might have some inhibition on exports and we would not wish to see this kind of publicity given in our export markets. To conclude, Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that we are moving into a complex new area of administration in which procedural questions and rules are vital.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
Accordingly I might inform the hon. member and other interested members of the house that the government would be prepared to undertake a comprehensive review of the procedures under the act and the regulations, upon the occasion of the tabling in the house of the first report of the tribunal, which would be made possible by one of the changes in the bill recommended by the standing committee. At that time it would be possible to provide an occasion for the discussion of the provisions, if such should be deemed necessary. I would suggest to the hon. member that he may wish to accept this suggestion in lieu of his amendment; otherwise, I regret that I do not have the authority
December 18, 1968

to accede to his amendment. If he wishes to proceed I would ask the house to vote.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Having heard the parliamentary secretary I am all the more convinced I am right. However, since it is obvious that the amendment will not carry, I will withdraw it.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: However, if hon. members so wish we can put forward the amendment.


James Hugh Faulkner: Does the hon. member have leave to withdraw his amendment?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, I do not withdraw the amendment. Put the question.
Amendment (Mr. Lambert) negatived: yeas 56; nays 95.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 20 agreed to.
On clause 21-Tribunal established.
Alfred Dryden Hales: Mr. Chairman, this has to do with the setting up of a tribunal of five men, and it is something new. This is the first time this has ever been done. In subclause (4) it says that the members of the tribunal would hold office until they attain the age of 75. I should like to ask the parliamentary secretary whether the government would not consider reducing that age from 75 to 70. We do not want to have a group of old retired men on that tribunal. We want young, aggressive, active men who are interested in industry and commerce and who understand what the tribunal is supposed to do.


An hon. Member:: The age is 70 now.


Alfred Dryden Hales: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I meant to suggest that it be reduced to 65 years of age.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether perhaps we should have a consultation on this with the former leader of the hon. member's party. He might have some views concerning the vigour of people who are 70 years of age. I certainly do not disagree with the general point he has expressed. I would suggest, however, that there are many people who feel that one can be quite vigorous even at the age of 70.
Anti-Dumping Duties


Alfred Dryden Hales: Subclause 7 of clause 21 states:
Each member shall devote the whole of his time to the performance of his duties under this act and shall not accept or hold any office or employment inconsistent with his duties and functions under this act.
Does this mean that a member of the tribunal may be a shareholder of some large corporation or that he may be the vice president of such a corporation? If so, there is no control here. He could be a shareholder of many companies, and therefore would have a conflict of interests. Such a person could be acting as a member of the tribunal when it was hearing a case involving a company of which he might be a large shareholder. I think this is a matter which should be taken care of in subclause 7. Apparently it is not.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member again has raised a useful point. I am informed that this wording is exactly the same as that found in the legislation creating similar independent tribunals, such as the National Energy Board and the Immigration Appeal Board. I would presume it is contemplated that people holding such positions would not hold other appointments or act in ways inconsistent with the terms of their appointment to the tribunal.


Alfred Dryden Hales: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I cannot accept that explanation because the situation in respect of the immigration appeal board is entirely different. This tribunal will hear cases concerning businesses where money is involved. One of the members of this tribunal could be a principal shareholder in a corporation. It would be improper for him to sit on that tribunal when the tribunal might be considering a case that would involve his own company. I do not care what the wording is in respect of other acts. This is an entirely new bill and an entirely new tribunal. If the parliamentary secretary is not agreeable to making a change to cover this situation, then I am prepared to move an amendment.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I might again point out that I am informed exactly the same type of wording is found in the act which sets up the National Energy Board. This is a board which deals with business interests. I have not heard of any difficulty of the type raised by the hon. member having been found to exist in respect of that board. I do not disagree with the validity of his expressed concern, but I would suggest that the point he has raised is covered in another portion of clause 21. I would

December 18, 1968
Anti-Dumping Duties
refer him to subclause 2 of clause 21 which states:
Subject to subsections (3) and (4), each member shall hold office during good behaviour for a period of seven years, but may be removed at any time by the governor In council for cause.
It would seem to me that if circumstances or situations of conflict of interest of the type referred to by the hon. member should be found to exist, this would be the type of thing that could be looked upon as a reason for removal from office for cause.
# (3:50 p.m.)


Alfred Dryden Hales: Mr. Chairman, I would inform the parliamentary secretary now that when these five members of the tribunal are appointed I shall place a question on the order paper asking about the shares they hold and in what companies they hold them.


Mr. Salfsman:: The hon. member for Wellington raised a very important point about any conflict of interest that might arise. I think the parliamentary secretary referred to clause 21(2), and especially to the words "shall hold office". It seems to me that we are not talking about dismissing a member from this tribunal because he may have some shares or interest in a corporation. In a society like ours that is a fairly widespread situation. We ought to make sure, through this legislation, that if a conflict of interest does arise, a declaration about such conflict shall be mandatory. In other words, where a person does become involved with any conflict of interest he ought to absent himself from deliberations in the particular case then before the tribunal. Of course the conflict of interest may arise in any number of ways. I think therefore that the question raised, to make sure that this legislation is satisfactory from the point of view of avoiding any conflict of interest, is legitimate, and I hope the parliamentary secretary can assure us that the danger of conflict of interest is provided for.


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: I too am concerned about the tribunal, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday the parliamentary secretary told the committee that the tribunal would decide on matters of injury and that the deputy minister of national revenue would decide on matters concerning dumping. It seems to me that great care will have to be taken in selecting the people who are to sit on the tribunal. We must make sure that they are not only from the textile or steel industry. Naturally, if the members were from those industries they might find a great many cases of injury-some of them no
[Mr. Gray.j
doubt beneficial to the rest of the country. Quite often I have difficulty in feeling sympathy for the Steel Company of Canada, which is crying all the way to the bank. In appointing members to sit on this tribunal, will the government give consideration to selecting people from the various areas of our society? For instance, we might have someone from a consumer association, someone from the agricultural industry, someone from the trade union movement and a couple of others, probably, from other industries. Will the selection of members of the tribunal be spread over all sections of our society?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I can deal first with the question raised by the hon. member who has just spoken. That is exactly the approach which is going to be taken in making the appointments. An attempt will be made to appoint people with a great breadth and diversity of background and to take into account the useful point the hon. member has made.
With respect to the comments of the hon. member for Waterloo, it seems to me that the place to take steps to avoid possible problems of conflict of interest is at the time of the nomination of the people who will sit on the tribunal. I will make a further suggestion, and that is that with respect to questions of absenting oneself from voting, and so on, this might be taken care of in the rules of the tribunal which will govern these procedures.


Mr.   Bailsman@: I would like to believe that it is possible for all conflicts of interest to be detected when a member is appointed to the tribunal, but I do not see how that can be done. Surely no one is suggesting that every single asset in an individual's possession will be scrutinized before that individual is appointed. Surely the members of the tribunal will not have to declare every asset they acquire or every piece of stock they buy while they are members of the tribunal. I do not think that has been the practice in the past, and unless the government is saying that it intends to institute such a practice with the members of the tribunal I do not see how we can be assured of any satisfactory answer to the question we have raised.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: It seems to me that the most significant part of the hon. member's remarks with respect to making decisions or taking part in deliberations of the tribunal where there might be a possibility of conflict of interest, was perhaps where the hon. member indicated that a group might appear before the tribunal and one of its members might
December 18, 1968

have been previously linked with that group in some way. Perhaps it might be a federation of agriculture or some labour movement-it need not necessarily be a matter of ownership. It seems to me that the best way to take care of that, because this is one of a number of matters linked with procedure which are important, would be to have the matter set forth and specified under the rules of the tribunal. It will be noted that in a later clause of the bill it will be proposed that the rules of the tribunal are to be subject to approval by the governor in council. This is something that I think the government should take into consideration when the question of the rules is being dealt with.


Max Saltsman: Mr. Chairman, before proceeding further I wonder if we might stand this clause for a moment, so that I might discuss something with the hon. member for Wellington. I wish to see if he would like to propose an amendment. If not I should like to move an amendment which the parliamentary secretary might consider.


James Hugh Faulkner: Before putting the question to the committee I think it might be wise to allow the questions of other hon. members. Then I shall put the question as to whether or not this clause is to stand.


Barnett Jerome Danson: Mr. Chairman, I wish to comment on the remarks of the hon. member for Regina Lake Centre. A few minutes ago he said that he could not really feel sorry for the Steel Company of Canada, which is crying all the way to the bank. Well, we are dealing with a business proposition here, and although I have some very good friends on the other side of the house, whom I regard highly, I cannot understand the type of thinking that seems to prevail over there, that it is immoral to make a profit. I suggest that the greater immorality is for there to be no profit.
I think I said that in the committee, when the Steel Company appeared before us, and I think the hon. member for Waterloo heard me. When the company appeared before us it clearly represented the healthiest industry of the lot. Here was an industry making profits to pay the employees the highest wages in Canada, wages comparable with those paid in the United States and in many cases higher than those paid there; here is a company that is entirely healthy, that is a wholly owned Canadian industry, and hon. members of the party to which the hon. member for Waterloo belongs think there is something immoral about profits. I was impressed by the fact
Anti-Dumping Duties
that here was a company which did not have to go outside Canada in order to make any of its decisions; here was a company making decisions which were based on the interests of the economy of this country-it was a most impressive group. Yet hon. members opposite persist in their thinking. That type of thinking, in the face of the reinvestment in plant this industry engages in, in the face of its advancing technology and in the face of its ability to pay its workers high wages, is the most ridiculous sort of thinking I have ever heard.
I thought I should bring this to the attention of the hon. member. His group has talked a lot about Canadian ownership of our industries. Yet, because this industry is successful, it is criticized for being successful. That is an unfair criticism of an industry of this country.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: I hope the hon. member who has just spoken will read in tomorrow's Hansard, the remarks I have just made. He will get my point.
May I ask the parliamentary secretary whether this bill contemplates the appointment of the deputy minister to this tribunal? If not, will this be contemplated by the government?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Is the hon. member asking whether a person can be on the tribunal and be the deputy minister at the same time?


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: Yes.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: That is not possible under the terms of the proposed legislation. The bill specifies that each member of the tribunal shall devote the whole of his time to the performance of duties under this act, and so on. I do not see how the deputy minister of national revenue could devote the whole of his time to duties as a member of the tribunal, and at the same time be able to carry out the heavy responsibilities placed upon him not only under this act but under the Customs Act and the Customs Tariff Act.
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)


James Hugh Faulkner: Order, please. The hon. member for Waterloo did request that this clause be allowed to stand. Is there unanimous consent?


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member still is of that disposition, I certainly would not object.

December 18, 1968
Anti-Dumping Duties


James Hugh Faulkner: Is it agreed that clause 21 stand?


Alfred Dryden Hales: I am ready to move the amendment, Mr. Chairman. I move, seconded by the hon. member for Waterloo:
That in clause 21, subclause 7, line 33, following the word "functions" insert the words "and shall declare any conflicts of interest in any proceedings"-


Max Saltsman: I have a question for the hon. member for Wellington, Mr. Chairman. Are there three additional words to be added to those of the amendment? In other words, are the words "under this act" to be added at the end of the subclause?


Alfred Dryden Hales: They are already there.


James Hugh Faulkner: Is the committee ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Max Saltsman: Mr. Chairman, I have a few words to say before proceeding to the vote on this amendment. I hope the parliamentary secretary will consider accepting the amendment on behalf of the government or asking that the clause stand while he considers the possibility of accepting it. I ask this because I think a rather important amendment has been put forth by the hon. member for Wellington. It may be the first time such a provision has been inserted in an act, but I think it is a most useful addition to the act and one that clearly states, I would think, the purpose and intent of those of us who are concerned with the legislative process.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I think, Mr. Chairman, we have another clause dealing with the French and English terms used with respect to the word "dumping", which has been stood. I will have some comments to make on that matter when we get back to the clause. Because I think the point raised by the hon. member is of significance, I would suggest to the committee that this clause stand as well.


James Hugh Faulkner: Is it agreed that clause 21 stand?
Clause stands.
Clauses 22 to 24 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 25-Rules.


Mr. Alkenbrack:: Mr. Chairman, I am also apprehensive of the eventual possibility of conflict of interest and suggest to the committee that this clause is an excellent place in which to insert a provision in this respect.
[Mr. Gray.l
Apparently the clause says that the tribunal may, subject to the approval of the governor in council, make its own rules. This is a rather loose provision. I think the place to make the rules is here. Therefore I suggest that a subclause (c) be inserted reading along these lines:
(c) the eligibility of each individual member of the tribunal to perform his duties pertaining to the matters before the tribunal in the event of a conflict of interest by any member of the tribunal.
I offer this suggestion to the committee for what it is worth. I think it is a sound way of ensuring that there will not at any time be any conflict of interest on the part of the five members of the tribunal.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member moving a formal amendment? If he is not, I would thank him for his suggestion, but would point out that it is customary, when tribunals of this type are set up which are designed to be independent bodies of a judicial nature, that they are given broad powers to make their own rules. I know the hon. member for Edmonton West has some views on this subject and I think he may agree with me that it may or may not be suitable to limit the area of rule-making of the tribunal further than already appears to be done by the proposed clause. Certainly the point raised by the hon. member could well be noted when the time comes to draft the rules.


Almonte Douglas Alkenbrack: Mr. Chairman, the rules laid down by the tribunal will have to be referred to this committee or the house for approval anyway, so I do not think an amendment is necessary at this time. I do however ask the parliamentary secretary to take note of my suggestion.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, I think my colleagues have a good point in principle. The only thing is whether it could be written into the act. That is another question. In any event, it must be pointed out that the rules of procedure of the tribunal are subject to approval by the cabinet. The cabinet already has one check in this regard. Second, it will be seen that these rules have to be tabled in the house and will be subject to the scrutiny of the committee on delegated legislation.
Therefore if the rules are not considered adequate or it is thought they are too broad, this house can make further comment on the matter. I find there are no other acts in which the question of conflict of interest arises. We
December 18, 19B8

have the principle in the National Energy-Board, which is concerned in much the same sphere, and there is nothing in that act which indicates any conflict of interest. I would think that any member of a tribunal who exposed himself to a conflict of interest would be doing so at his very great peril. Such a provision is never written into an act.


James Hugh Faulkner: Shall clause 25 carry?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, there is one point I would like to make in regard to clause 25. I ask why in the drafting of subclause 2 the usual practice was not followed that rules be laid on the table of parliament, and that this should be done within 15 days of the making thereof, or if parliament be not then sitting at least within ten sitting days of the next following session. That is a standard drafting. At the time the committee was discussing this question with Mr. R. Grey I felt this wording was all right, but on further reflection I believe what I have suggested is preferable, because in fact this provision could mean a delay of almost a year in the tabling in parliament of any rules made under clause 25 or amendments thereto. I think it would have been wiser to draft the clause as I have suggested, because that is the way it is done in most other legislation. We have had many examples in the explanation of this act, stating that it was done this way in another act; but now we have the reverse. I believe there is a lack of consistency in the draft.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I am advised that the wording is identical with that used with respect to the tabling of rules in the Exchequer Court Act. If I am not mistaken, it would not prevent the government from tabling the rules sooner if they were then available. It makes only a mandatory statement, and, as I have said follows the procedure for tabling rules, as provided in the Exchequer Court Act.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 26 to 28 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 29-right to appear.
Max Saltsman: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move an amendment to clause 29 (2) which reads:
A hearing before the tribunal may at the discretion of the tribunal or the chairman, as the case may be, be heard in camera or in public.
It seems to me that at this time in our history there is very little reason for any
Anti-Dumping Duties
tribunal meetings to be held in camera. Increasingly legislation is being introduced calling upon public disclosure of business information, and information from trade unions. I think it would be an important principle to incorporate in this bill. I can foresee very few reasons why this information should not be subject to public scrutiny, and therefore I should like to move the following amendment:
That clause 29(2) be deleted and the following substituted therefor: "All hearings of the tribunal shall be public".


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: One can have sympathy with the point of view expressed by the hon. member for Waterloo, but I think the answer to the question as to whether this amendment would be acceptable to the committee is contained in subclause 3 of clause 29 which reads:
Where evidence or information that is in its nature confidential, relating to the business or affairs of any person, firm or corporation, is given or elicited in the course of any hearing before the tribunal, the evidence or information shall not be made public in such a manner as to be available for the use of any business competitor or rival of the person, firm or corporation.
First of all, I do not know how we can agree to the hon. member's amendment to the clause and at the same time continue to have subclause 3 of the clause, because they are in conflict with each other. Secondly, and perhaps most important, I think it is clear that there are quite legitimate circumstances when information would be disclosed in these hearings which would be of great benefit to competitors of the firm involved, I think those involved in the hearings could have quite legitimate reasons, as is implied in the proposed subclause 3, for asking that information of this type be maintained on a confidential basis.
Therefore I invite the committee not to accept the amendment moved by the hon. member.


Max Saltsman: I recognize the validity of the parliamentary secretary's suggestion about subclause 3 and I am very pleased to add to my amendment the words: "and that subclause 3 be deleted completely."
The argument we have just heard is the same argument that was used before the joint consumer prices committee of the Senate and the House of Commons, when various industries appeared before us and said that any attempt on the part of the committee to obtain information from them would be injurious to them and would be information

December 18, 1968
Anti-Dumping Duties
which competitors might wish to have. Despite the claim made by the witnesses appearing before the committee, the committee in its wisdom decided immediately that none of our meetings would be held in camera, that none of the information that was requested would be considered confidential, and that the committee had the right to call for any information which it felt would serve the public interest or enable us to reach some conclusion. The result was not as disastrous as some people claim. I do not think any competitor picked up information that he did not have before, or that there was any serious claim made on the part of those who testified before the committee that they were injured, or that their competitors took advantage of the situation. I think that this argument is probably greatly overdone in our society and that there are probably very few so-called secrets among business firms that have to be kept close to the chest. Therefore I indicate my willingness to bring the amendment into harmony with subclause 3 by including in my amendment that subclause 3 be deleted completely.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, first of all I think it should be made clear that the aim of this clause is not to permit those appearing before the tribunal to refuse to give information but rather to encourage information to be given to enable the tribunal to carry out its important functions. I think that if the proposal of the hon. member with respect to this clause is accepted, it will make it more difficult for the tribunal to carry out the very important job being given to it, and it is a very vital job dealing with the protection of Canadian industry and the jobs of large numbers of Canadian workers. I suggest to the hon. member that there is a very legitimate case to be made out for the existence of circumstances in which information of value to competitors should be allowed to be kept confidential in hearings of this type. Certainly I think the tribunal should have the discretion which is being given to it by the proposed clause to make up its own mind in this area.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, many representations were made that a degree of confidentiality should be maintained, particularly with respect to the name of the complainant in certain stated instances. This was put before the committee in a number of briefs. With all due respect to the hon. member for Waterloo, I think that what he proposes to do here would negate what has
[Mr. Saltsman.l
been accepted in previous sections of the act, which was a matter of considerable representation before the committee and of general acceptance to the committee at the time.


Mr. Blair:: Mr. Chairman, in considering this clause the house should take into consideration the experience of the Tariff Board which for more than 30 years has conducted inquiries of a similar kind. It has been the practice of the Tariff Board to receive information relating to costs of production, secrets of industrial processes and the like, in confidence without disclosing this information to other parties before the proceedings. This has had a dual benefit. First of all it has encouraged parties coming before the Tariff Board to make a full disclosure of the facts.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)
Of course, the second benefit is that the Tariff Board has a much better appreciation of the factual situation than if the parties appearing had to "fudge" their presentation in detail in order to avoid the disclosure of important commercial secrets. No one with experience in these matters or in business could possibly agree with the assertion of the hon. member for Waterloo North that there were no trade secrets-


An hon. Member:: Waterloo.


Duncan Gordon Blair: Pardon me, Waterloo; a famous name in history. Nobody could possibly agree with the hon. member that there are no trade secrets, that the businessmen of this country are not entitled to maintain their cost of production in some reasonable type of confidence, that there is no such thing as competition which makes it necessary. I feel the suggestion the hon. member makes, in trying to couple with his amendment the total deletion of the clause, borders on irresponsibility. It is not something that this parliament would like to countenance.


Barnett Jerome Danson: I must agree, Mr. Chairman, with most of what the hon. member for Waterloo has proposed. There are very few secrets that should be held close to the vest, but there are some. This provision was discussed during the committee proceedings at considerable length because we were concerned about this question of disclosure and about secrecy. There was some feeling it may inhibit complainants, and we wanted to make sure that every reasonable protection was given to them. I would be concerned as well about too much secrecy. This whole antidumping legislation is dependant upon the
December 18, 1968

spirit in which it is implemented, and the way in which the tribunal functions. If we find, as a matter of fact, the tribunal is taking advantage of this provision then a whole lot of people will be here on our doorstep in Ottawa, and rightfully so.
While I must agree that there are very few things that need to be kept secret, there are some. I think that in order to make the legislation effective at all we must protect those who are prepared to testify. This certainly applies to complainants who do not want to jeopardize their future business position. I believe when the matter was discussed in committee there was unanimous agreement about this need for secrecy being maintained. I would join the hon. member for Waterloo in cautioning against too much secrecy. However, I could not support the amendment because I do not think the legislation would be nearly as effective without that safeguard.


Leslie Gordon Benjamin: There have been a great many arguments put forward about the need for secrecy, Mr. Chairman, in relation to obtaining information from complainants. I wonder if there is not some chance-and although many members may not agree with me I suspect there is a great deal of chance- that there will be no means of judging the accuracy of the confidential information given to a board relating to the cost of production or other internal affairs of a given company. Hew good is this information unless it sees the light of day? It seems to me one of the best ways of judging the accuracy or honesty of figures of this nature is to reveal them to competitors. They will often disprove the accuracy of these figures. Many such incidents have occurred in connection with railway accounting. I should like to see better arguments put forward in opposition to the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Waterloo.
I do not believe in practice the tribunal will have sufficient time to thoroughly research and check these confidential figures or other information that may be given relating to the cost of production. It seems to me that both the complainant and the public stand to gain by the removal of this type of secrecy in so far as witnesses are concerned. If there is a good case of injury, these people have nothing to fear from making their figures public. It seems to me they strengthen their case by providing an opportunity for scrutiny.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: If I might just add a word, I would point out to hon. members that under
Anti-Dumping Duties
clause 27 the tribunal is deemed to be a court of record and has very wide powers with relation to the compelling of the production of documents or in respect of the attendance of witnesses. I believe it also has the authority to hire a staff to assist in its deliberations. If I am not mistaken, at the hearing other interested parties are going to be present. I feel we all ought to give proper attention to what the hon. member for Edmonton West said to us concerning the many requests we have had from witnesses before the tribunal for complainants to keep their identity confidential so they could bring forward information freely. While I understand the spirit in which the amendment was proposed, I would ask the committee not to accept it.


James Hugh Faulkner: Is the committee ready for the question?
Amendment (Mr. Saltsman) negatived: Yeas, 5; nays, 70.


James Hugh Faulkner: I declare the amendment lost. Shall clause 29 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 36 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 37-Surtax in certain conditions.
Mr. Danforth:: Some of us, Mr. Chairman, were not privileged to be members of the committee, so may I ask the parliamentary secretary why it was felt necessary to delete the sections of the former act which spelled out the formula for the imposition of value for duty, and change it to a surtax which is left to the discretion of the governor in council? There must have been a reason for this, but I am not aware of it.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: I think one very important reason, Mr. Chairman, has been reflected in some of the contributions to the debate thus far. In the minds of many there has been some misunderstanding with respect to the difference between dumping, which as I said yesterday has a rather precise meaning in the law of international trade, and emergency action with respect to low cost imports causing injury to Canadian production. This condition was dealt with under section 40A. Now, I believe this Section 40A, was, in effect, to reflect the provisions of article 19 of the GATT.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)
This authorized the member countries of GATT to take this type of emergency action,

December 18. 1968
Anti-Dumping Duties
even though tor example the goods coming into Canada and being sold here at a price that injured Canadian production were not being sold in Canada at a price below that for which the same goods were offered for sale in the country of export. The redrafting of the provisions which were formerly 40(A) and placing them in the Customs Tariff Act quite separate and apart from the anti-dumping legislation, I think serves a very useful purpose in making clear what type of action is being taken.
Second, I think it can be said that the wording proposed follows more closely the provisions of article 19 of GATT. I might say that in spite of the seemingly more detailed nature of the provisions of section 40A, it will be found that it placed a lot of discretion in the hands of the administration, discretion about which complaints have been made in the past. In fact there was some complaint about it during the debate in this house yesterday. Therefore the fact that discretion will remain under the proposed new section 7 does not, in this regard at least, bring about any significant change in the method of administration.
As I pointed out earlier in the debate quoting page 101 of the white paper, and this is also set forth in the explanatory notes of the bill, "the new subsections will replace section 40A (7) of the Customs Act, and in their application will be substantially the same as that subsection."


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 38 and 39 agreed to.
James Hugh Faulkner: The committee will now turn to clause 21, which was stood.
On clause 21-Tribunal established.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the amendment to clause 21 (7), the government has attempted to give further consideration to the amendment that was proposed. While I think one can well be in agreement with the idea underlying the proposed amendment, namely that those serving on the tribunal should not be involved in conflicts of interest, I would suggest, with all due respect to those who prepared it, that the proposed wording is of a rather vague nature and could cause serious difficulties in interpretation.
I suggest that a preferable way to deal with this type of problem would be in the rules of the tribunal, which would have to be approved by the governor in council. I can assure hon. members that the views they

have expressed with regard to a risk of a conflict of interest will be carefully noted by the government. Therefore, I invite the committee not to accept this amendment.


James Hugh Faulkner: Is the committee ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question.
Amendment (Mr. Hales) negatived: Yeas, 25; nays, 49.


James Hugh Faulkner: I delcare the amendment
lost.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
James Hugh Faulkner: The committee will now consider clause 1.
On clause 1-Short title.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert) last night raised a very interesting point with regard to the word "dumping" which has been translated into French in the bill by "sous-evalue", and I want to give him the following explanation.
Since the verb "to dump" does not exist in French, we resort to another word to express the same concept. The Harrap dictionary translates the expression "to dump goods" by "ecouler a perte des marchandises". According to that meaning, it follows that the goods would be sold at a loss. That term, however, could not be used to define the word "dumping" which, in the act, applies to goods sold at a price lower than their normal value but not necessarily at a loss. This is why a more specific term had to be selected. It seemed that the word "sous-evalue", which means "below the value", would be more appropriate and would be used in the text of the legislation more readily than the words "marchandises qui font l'objet de dumping".
Therefore, I suggest to the committee to accept the words used in the bill under consideration.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, I brought up the matter merely because nowhere in the anti-dumping code have I found the words "sous-evalue" or "sous-evaluation". It is intended to use the word as a verb, as will be noted from page 12 of the white paper, and I quote:
For the purpose of this code, a product is to be considered as being dumped-
December 18, 1963

I feel that it cannot be done, because in international French, we read the following:
Aux fins d'application du present code, un produit doit dtre considere comme faisant 1'objet d'un dumping ...
I have absolutely no objection to the word "dumping", because it is used internationally; but I was wondering why, in Canada, we should innovate by using the word "sous-evalue" which is found nowhere in the international code.


Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray: Mr. Chairman, I should like to add a few words. The anti-dumping code is an international agreement of general application. It will be used for domestic legislation in a large number of countries and we should use words that are as specific as possible in our own legislation. That is why those who drafted this bill used the expression "sous-evalue" with a view to being as specific as possible. Therefore, once again, I suggest that the committee accept the use of those words.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the bill be read the third time?


Some hon. Members:: Now.
Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale) for Mr. Benson moved the third reading of the bill.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: It
is not a question of holding up the bill at all but I want to reiterate from this side of the house the general opinion of all members of the committee as enunciated, particularly, by my hon. friend from Calgary Centre (Mr. Harkness) that the efficacy of this legislation will depend entirely on the efficiency with which it is administered and the speed with which the machinery we are establishing reacts to events.
If this efficiency is not forthcoming, and if the government neglects to take appropriate steps to name a tribunal immediately, appointing to it men of high calibre, the whole purpose of the bill will be frustrated. The tribunal should not be allowed to become a refuge for defeated candidates or the friends of the party opposite. I do not think we should have gone through this bill so diligently, or facilitated its passage through the cooperation of the opposition parties, if this
Fisheries
body is to become part of the slough of patronage.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Gaston Clermont (Gatineau):: Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege to act as chairman of the committee on finance, trade and economic affairs when the white book was considered by that committee. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate and thank sincerely the members of the committee and the personnel of the house for the wonderful co-operation given to me. I would also like to congratulate the various associations for the quality of their submissions to the committee.

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.
[And order number 38 having been called]


Stanley Howard Knowles: rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The last I heard from the leader of the house was that we would proceed with the resolution relating to fresh water fish.


John Napier Turner: The leader of the house has asked me to confirm that with the consent of the various parties in the house the next item on the order of business will be No. 30, the house again in committee of the whole on the resolution introduced by the Minister of Trade and Commerce on the subject of fresh water fish. If that is agreeable, we would call the item I have just referred to.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, December 3, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pepin-Mr. Faulkner in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to regulate interprovincial and export trade in freshwater fish and to establish the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation; to provide that the corporation shall conduct its operations on a selfsustaining financial basis without appropriations therefor by Parliament; to provide that the Governor in Council may authorize the Minister of Finance, under certain terms and conditions, to guarantee repayment of loans by banks to the corporation and to make loans to the corporation, the aggregate outstanding of amounts borrowed or loaned not to exceed five million dollars; to provide
[Stage Direction]
December 18, 1968
Fisheries
also for grants to the corporation, out of the consolidated revenue fund, not exceding in the aggregate of one hundred thousand dollars to enable the Corporation to meet initial operating and establishment expenses; and to provide further for other related and incidental matters-
Stanley Howard Knowles: On
a point of order, may I draw attention to the fact that this was a voluntary agreement, not a compulsory one.


Mr. Crouse:: I presume that the Minister without Portfolio who introduced this resolution intends to be here.


An hon. Member:: He is just coming from his office.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: If this goes on, the opposition will be as confused as the government. At this point I am wondering whether the Minister without Portfolio will have anything further to say. I read his remarks made on December 3 and it appears to me he was cut off before he had time to complete his statement. If he has anything to add we would be pleased to hear him finish his statement, so that the record might be complete. I will await his arrival, if that is the wish of the Chair. Otherwise, I will proceed with my comments.


John Napier Turner: The Minister without Portfolio, representing the Minister of Trade and Commerce, will be here in a few moments. Listening to what has just been said by the hon. member for South Shore, I note, as he does, that my colleague spoke for only 12 minutes or so and was obviously not able to finish his remarks. If the hon. member would like to begin his speech and yield the floor when the minister arrives, that would be satisfactory to us. Alternatively, if he wishes me to talk about fish until my colleague gets here, I would be glad to do so.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: If this is an example of the type of programming to which we are to be subjected, we don't want to have any more of it.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John Napier Turner: I must say to the Leader of the Opposition that the government was surprised by the degree of cooperation it received from the other side of the house; as a result, we are running ahead of schedule this afternoon. However the Minister without Portfolio is here now, and I yield the floor to him.


Mr. Lang (Saskaioon-Humboldl):: I am very sorry I could not be here for the whole of the afternoon, the Christmas spirit being so evident in this place. I regret having to absent myself. I came back as soon as I could.
I have only one or two words to add to what I said on this subject previously. It is important that this bill should see the light of day in order that it may be considered not only by members of this house but by interested people throughout the country. I should like to add this to what I said while introducing the resolution some time ago. The responsible federal and provincial ministers have met from time to time, together with representatives from the Northwest Territories, to consider proposals and exchange ideas in the process of their preparation of draft legislation for approval of parliament and the several legislatures concerned.
In their discussions the ministers have emphasized the importance of a smooth transition to a new marketing system. They have agreed that in any event there will be no interruption of the existing trade and industry arrangements before May 1969. At that time, if the necessary legislation has received approval, the processes for changeover might be set in motion in consultation with the interested parties.
Necessary preparations on the part of the industry for its support of the summer fishery of 1969, such as storage of ice and overhaul of boats and motors, should proceed now, with assurance that normal requirements for these will continue.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
With respect to short-term financing of fishermen, provision exists in the bill now being placed before parliament for the proposed freshwater fish marketing corporation ultimately to assume this role. In the meantime companies will be aware of the normal needs and capabilities of fishermen who work with them. As in the past this may serve for their guidance in taking what steps are necessary to assure maintenance of production during any phasing in of new marketing arrangements. Mr. Chairman, I think this fish marketing board may do much for the industry and the areas concerned, and I look forward to its early introduction and passage in the house.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the statement made by the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Lang) concerning the government's proposal to establish a
December 18. 1968

Fisheries
freshwater fish marketing corporation as introduced in the house on December 3, and I also listened very carefully to his remarks this afternoon. Since considerable time has passed, some 15 days since he first introduced the resolution, a resolution which is very carefully worded, I believe it would be proper that I put its words on the record. The resolution states:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to regulate interprovincial and export trade in freshwater fish and to establish the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation; to provide that the corporation shall conduct its operations on a selfsustaining financial basis without appropriations therefor by parliament; to provide that the governor in council may authorize the Minister of Finance, under certain terms and conditions, to guarantee repayment of loans by banks to the corporation and to make loans to the corporation, the aggregate outstanding of amounts borrowed or loaned not to exceed five million dollars; to provide also for grants to the corporation, out of the consolidated revenue fund, not exceeding in the aggregate of one hundred thousand dollars to enable the corporation to meet initial operating and establishment expenses; and to provide further for other related and incidental matters.
The dictionary gives one of the meanings of the word expedient as being "more politic than just". I cannot help but wonder if this resolution is more politics than justice, more of a promise than a possibility for the future well being of our inland fishermen. I say this because the list of unfulfilled promises made to our fishermen over the years is quite lengthy. The economic hardships faced by large sections of the fisheries are tragic reminders of the government's attitude toward this important primary industry.
Let us look at some of the promises that have been made by the Liberals in the past. Mr. Chairman, I am not going to read the entire list since it is the wish of many of us to get out of here by Christmas, but I will place a few of their statements pertaining to fisheries on the record.
For example a five day federal-provincial fisheries conference was held in Ottawa on January 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24, 1964, behind closed doors. When it concluded a 1,800 word communique was read by the then minister of fisheries, Mr. Robichaud, to a press conference. It said the future of the Canadian fishing industry is bright if a "progressive program of education, modernization and economic encouragement is adopted." The minister pledged to design a national development program that would bring the Canadian fishermen the same benefits given to Canadian farmers. There were no specific details set out at that time by the minister.


Robert Lorne Stanfield: What was that date?


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Those dates, Mr. Chairman, were January 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24 in 1964. The minister pledged to design a national development program that would bring Canadian fishermen the same benefits given to Canadian farmers. There were no specific details set out by the minister but his communique did refer to the general agreement reached with the provinces for improved credit facilities for our fishermen, as well as new research programs, exploration programs and technical training. This communique was hailed as a Magna Carta for the fishermen although it was estimated it would take five or more years to get the whole program developed.
I ask the minister who is piloting this resolution through the house this afternoon if this freshwater fish marketing corporation is to be the Magna Carta for our national fishing industry? If it is, then I say to him that it falls painfully short of the promise made by the former minister of fisheries almost five years ago that a national development program for our fishing industry would be established by this government.
In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, this resolution sets a bad precedent for it implies that only one section of Canada's fisheries, namely our inland fisheries, is facing economic difficulties and therefore requires additional government planning and control. This resolution ignores the problems of salmon fishermen on the west coast. It ignores the problems of our deep sea fishermen who are faced with low prices for their catch and higher production costs. It does nothing for the thousands of fishermen on the Atlantic coast engaged in the salt cod industry, or for the thousands of our inshore fishermen who daily watch the fleets of other nations grow larger and operate in what should be Canada's territorial seas, taking not only their supplies of fish but in some cases destroying their set nets and traps as well.
In my opinion it is pointless to state that you can segregate the problems of the fishing industry. The minister, in his initial statement, said that inland fish do not compete directly with markets enjoyed by ocean fish. I say to this house that the products of the inland fishing industry must compete in the marketplace with all other forms of protein, including salt water fish. It is only natural therefore, since the entire fishing industry is facing severe marketing difficulties, that the

December 18. 1968
Fisheries
freshwater fishing industry would be similarly affected, but the methods proposed to overcome these difficulties cannot help but cause concern within the entire industry.
When considering a fisheries policy for Canada, or for any section of the industry in Canada, I believe the government should be primarily concerned with the individual fishermen and the impact that any new policy will have upon his way of life, upon his income, and upon his standard of living. We must ask ourselves if this policy will rob him of any of his freedoms, if it will improve his income, or advance his training in new and better methods of participation in the fishing industry.
I realize, as well as any one in this house, that the problems of the fishing industry are many and complex, and I cannot help but wonder whether the federal government, in introducing this resolution, is once again overstepping its boundaries of authority by usurping rights which, under the British North America Act, are vested in the provincial governments. I say this because the fisheries minister stated in his first appearance before the standing committee on fisheries and forestry that the provinces have property rights in non-tidal fisheries. He also stated that while all the regulations governing fisheries are made at Ottawa, the enforcement of the regulations, mostly in the freshwater fisheries, have been undertaken by a number of provincial governments concerned, which have also established agencies to promote the development of the fishing industry within their provinces.


James Hugh Faulkner: Order, please. It being five o'clock shall I rise-


John Napier Turner: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I do not know what the sense of the committee may be as to whether there is any opportunity of concluding debate on this resolution by six o'clock and allowing the bill to be published, so that members could examine it during the Christmas adjournment. We might consider this, with the consent of hon. members intending to present private members bills at this time.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, we on this side will agree to carry on until six o'clock.


John Napier Turner: But is there any chance, in the hon. member's view of concluding debate by six o'clock?


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, I am not in a position to state the number of speakers who

will participate since, as the minister will agree, there was some confusion as to whether this item would be debated today. Because of that, it has not been possible to discuss this matter with other parties but it is my understanding that since the legislation covers a vast area of Canada many hon. members would wish to express their views, and I would believe that it may not be possible to get this matter through by six o'clock. That is only one man's opinion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, we think it would be desirable for the bill to see the light of day before the assumed Christmas recess, and so we would be willing to take this hour for it. In fact we would be willing to take it in the hope that we might get it through.


James Hugh Faulkner: Possibly between the time I report progress and Mr. Speaker's resuming the chair there may be a consensus on this matter, and the question could be raised at that time.
Progress reported.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I am in the hands of the house, but there was a feeling, perhaps in the hope that the resolution in committee of the whole might be completed this evening, that the debate might continue in committee.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: It is agreed.
The house resumed consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Pepin-Mr. Faulkner in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to regulate interprovincial and export trade in freshwater fish and to establish the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation; to provide that the Corporation shall conduct its operations on a self-sustaining financial basis without appropriation therefor by Parliament; to provide that the Governor in Council may authorize the Minister of Finance, under certain terms and conditions, to guarantee repayment of loans by banks to the Corporation and to make loans to the Corporation, the aggregate outstanding of amounts borrowed or loaned not to exceed five million dollars; to provide also for grants to the Corporation, out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, not exceeding in the aggregate of one hundred thousand dollars to enable the Corporation to meet initial operating and establishment expenses; and to provide further for other related and incidental matters.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, as I stated a moment ago to the minister I am unable to verify whether or not we can conclude the
December 18, 1968

debate on this resolution. I believe he understands the reason I am unable to give such an undertaking. However I wish to thank the other members of the committee for having granted permission to continue discussion of the resolution at this time.
Since this resolution proposes to regulate interprovincial and export trade in freshwater fish, one of the first questions that comes to mind is as to whether the federal government obtained agreement with all the provincial governments concerned, before proceeding with this arbitrary legislation which presumes to take over some of the authority now vested in the provincial governments? I believe this question must be answered, in view of the present government's attitude toward existing shared cost programs which eventually will leave the provinces with social care programs which they will have to run and finance by themselves. Will this program operate, as the resolution states, on a self-sustaining financial basis and, if so, how will the individual fisherman benefit from this scheme. It seems to me that at the present time the inland fishermen are overloaded with overhead. Before their catch reaches the consumer, who primarily is in the United States, it must go through the hands of the dealer, the processor, the exporter, the United States importer and, finally, the United States retailer.
With all this overhead is it any wonder that there are no worse pockets of poverty in all Canada than those found in the northern sections of our inland fishery. And now these poor fishermen are to have an additional board which will be supported out of their meagre earnings, because this resolution states that the board is to be self-sustaining. I ask the minister: How do you lighten a man's load by adding to his burden?
Just what is the situation within the freshwater fishing industry in this country? Normally, the supply of freshwater fish in Canada runs between 100 million and 125 million pounds. Its value to an estimated 7,000 fishermen is approximately $8J million with an export value of $13 million. The most important species in terms of income to the fishermen are whitefish, pickerel, sauger, lake trout, pike, perch, smelt and cisco. The importance of this industry is evident when one compares these figures to the over-all total Canadian production which amounts to two and a half billion pounds, valued to the fishermen at $162 million. For some time many of these inland fishermen have been
Fisheries
unable to obtain an income from fishing which would provide them with an adequate standard of living. Some of them have been able to supplement their low income from fishing through taking part time employment, but many freshwater fishermen have no other employment opportunities and consequently are living at subsistence levels. Primarily such conditions exist in northern Ontario, the northern parts of the prairie provinces and the Northwest Territories. In these areas the failure of the freshwater fisheries to support normal living conditions is associated more and more with the Indian and Metis, as more of these people have entered the commercial fisheries in recent years.
The marketing of pike, pickerel, whitefish, sauger and lake trout is of major concern to the 7,000 fishermen, 300 dealers and 35 exporters in the western inland fisheries and in northern Ontario. To add to their problems the incidence of parasite infected whitefish is increasing. This is of concern to everyone, since 70 per cent of the freshwater fish from the Northwest Territories and approximately 50 per cent of the catch in Saskatchewan and Manitoba are whitefish. The presence of the parasite is a major problem to the freshwater fish industry because the United States food and drug administration prohibits the entry of infected whitefish under the food, drug and cosmetics act of 1906. All whitefish entering the United States are therefore subject to inspection and rejected shipments, having suffered considerable deterioration in quality are returned to Canada and are subsequently marketed for a greatly reduced return in the domestic market.
In order to minimize the effect of this action of the Canadian freshwater fishing industry and to determine the amount of infection, the whitefish export inspection regulations were established on March 8, 1951 under the Canadian Fish Inspection Act. Under these regulations inspection is carried out by Canadian inspectors who cut up a number of whitefish from each shipment to determine the incidence of the parasite. However, the fish used as samples are not paid for by the federal government and they represent a loss to the exporters and the fishermen. Unfortunately, even with this Canadian inspection at export points, and their rejection of some 5 per cent of all shipments, a great deal of whitefish continue to be rejected by United States inspectors- something in the order of 15 per cent of all shipments-because the samples used in both

December 18, 1988
Fisheries
countries to determine infection are too small to give consistent results.
It is obvious therefore that there is little ground for confidence on the part of the United States authorities in the methods used byCanadian authorities to determine the rate of infection in whitefish. Since the presence of this parasite and the present system of inspection and re-inspection is without question one of the most important problems affecting any single species in the freshwater fishing industry, I cannot help but wonder why the federal government has not taken action to help solve this problem. Why did not the federal government improve its inspection service at the processing level, where the fish are packed, in the same manner that codfish and saltwater fish are inspected? In this way there would be a greater quality control at the producer level and, since top quality commands top prices in any commodity, part of the freshwater fisherman's problem would be solved.
I would also ask this government why they have not made a formal approach to the United States government requesting them to establish a set of standards for the inspection of whitefish which is mutually satisfactory to both countries. We must know, for example, that a fish which has been graded as "clear" in Canada at the source of production will be accepted as "clear" by the United States food and drug administration inspectors. It seems to me that a set of standards could be adopted which would be universally accepted by both countries and which would help eliminate some of the losses presently borne by the inland fishermen. In fact I submit that this is the course which will have to be followed by the government, regardless of the final method used to market our freshwater fish because quality control at the source is the key to the entire problem.
This action might well be taken under a progressive program of education as was listed in the magna carta put forward by Mr. Robi-chaud, the former minister of fisheries, in his proposals for the entire industry.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
Another factor adding to the low returns received by the freshwater fishermen is the fact that fresh fish spoils quickly unless properly iced or refrigerated. In view of the distance between our major exporters and the importers in New York, Chicago, and Detroit, and the absence of effective quality control in Canada, our exporters are frequently faced

with claims of poor quality, with no assurance that such deterioration has in fact taken place and, if it did, whether it occurred prior to arrival or resulted from mismanagement at the hands of the importer. This applies to fish exported in the whole round or in dressed form; but generally speaking it does not apply to fish fillets. At present over 95 per cent of all freshwater fish exports or three quarters of our total Canadian production is exported to the United States. In fact, we are the only foreign supplier in that market and U.S. importers depend on Canadian production for nearly all their requirements of pickerel, pike, sauger, whitefish and lake trout. However, in Chicago and Detroit two out of nine importers handle most of the Canadian shipments from some 35 exporters, which makes these two importers the dominant controllers in the pricing of round or dressed freshwater fish.
After making a study of the freshwater fishing industry and comparing it with the saltwater fishing industry as I know it, I can only conclude that the freshwater fishing industry has not progressed very far from the days of Peter, the great fisherman of Bible days. The supermarkets are today the great retailers for the fishing industry. Canadian exporters generally encounter fewer problems and have a stronger bargaining position when marketing fillets than when selling dressed fish; and today's modern housewife has indicated she prefers fillets to fish in the round or dressed state. Exporters can sell fillets, not to an importer distributor, but direct to a retail chain or large outlet. Since there are a large number of importers of fillets, control over the export of fish in this form is not nearly as concentrated as for round or dressed fish. I would therefore suggest that the government give greater consideration to the services provided to our freshwater fishermen by our exporters and dealers before they concur with the recommendations of the provinces which grant licences to some 93 exporters in our freshwater fishery areas. Exporters and dealers should be requested to upgrade their storage facilities and filleting equipment; and with closer quality control our freshwater fishermen could enjoy a better price for their product.
To ensure that our freshwater fishermen are better informed of the prices paid for their product in our major United States markets, I would also suggest that the federal government use the facilities of the C.B.C. to broadcast a daily fisherman's log through the
December 18. 1968

Fisheries
network of stations covering our inland fishing areas. This would be helpful in keeping dealers and fishermen on their toes and would help to bring about some uniformity of prices paid to our freshwater fishermen who must of necessity carry out their operations in areas separated by vast distances.
There are many other matters I wish to raise which might be helpful to our freshwater fishermen, but I will not do so, since I believe my time is running short. I look at this resolution with mixed feelings. It seems to be a direct contradiction of the fisheries minister's statement made in Boston on October 18, 1968, when he said this:
I believe in free enterprise, and I believe in the free interplay of supply and demand. I believe that competition is an important discipline in our economic system. And I believe that competition is, itself, the best assurance that the consumer at the market end of the line will get his fish at the lowest possible price. Having said that I must be quick to point out that there are too many obstacles to free enterprise, to free trade, and to the effective marketing of our fishery products. These barriers should be torn down so that all these forces should be free to work for the common good.
I ask the minister of Fisheries what has happened to these high sounding ideals? I am sorry to see that he is not in his seat this afternoon. I realize of course that he may be absent trying to solve some of the problems of our fishing industry at the present time. I ask why he does not assist the fishermen and the freshwater fishing industry in the modernization of its plants and equipment, as promised by his predecessor? Or for that matter, why does he not use the Fisheries Prices Support Act to beef up the prices of those fish which are producing incomes below the poverty line so that "economic encouragement is adopted", as promised by Mr. Robi-chaud? He also promised improved credit facilities for our fishermen; and this promise, if implemented, would help our freshwater fishermen to get boats and equipment so that they would not be dependant on the fish merchants.
Why has no action been taken by the government on order No. 9, the measure to amend the Fisheries Improvement Loans Act, which would help our inland fishermen obtain boats and equipment? This has been on the order paper since parliament opened. With an apparent lack of understanding of our problems on the part of the government no action has been taken on this very vital and necessary piece of legislation. New research programs would help our freshwater fisherman to properly ice and improve the quality of his
product. Exploration programs may also clean up some of the pollution of our rivers and lakes which has cut the earnings of our Great Lakes fishermen in half. And technical training could help all our fishermen, both inland and on the coast, in faster and easier methods of catching fish. The promises have been made to our fishermen. They were made to them in 1964 and it is time we saw some action.
I said I looked at this resolution with mixed feelings. I do so because it leaves many questions unanswered. For example, who will appoint the representatives of this corporation; will they be appointed by the federal or by the provincial governments concerned? How many will there be, and how great a load will their salaries and expenses be on the backs of the average freshwater fishermen? How many provinces and areas will be covered? Does the resolution cover the entire great lakes area with its large perch, smelt, bass and cisco landings? If it does not cover the southern part of the great lakes area, including lake Erie, and the marketing corporation principle is sound, why was this area excluded? What effect will this have on our fisheries sales in the U.S. which refused to lower the tariff on yellow perch when it was supported last year by the Fisheries Prices Support Board, at a loss of $523,535.13? If this had been the freshwater fish marketing corporation, who would make up the loss, the government or the fishermen? How are the prices under this corporation to be determined? Who sets the market? Who is the government guesser? What will happen to the plants made redundant by this legislation?
The minister said, as reported at page 3465 of Hansard for December 3:
The corporation would not be Intended to duplicate existing facilities of the industry. It should seek to reduce unnecessary duplication of facilities

Those are his words.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order, please.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Mr. Chairman, may I have your indulgence, to continue for a minute or so, and finish.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: I ask the minister, who will buy these plants? Will it be the federal or provincial government? What alternative employment programs are planned for these people who will be thrown out of work?

December 18, 1968
Fisheries
Since some lakes are far away from the United States market, while others are close at hand, who will absorb the difference in transportation costs-the corporation, the government, or the fisherman?
In view of these concerns and many others, Mr. Chairman, I will reserve my judgment of this resolution until I see the bill, at which time I hope to have something further to say and I hope some of my questions may be answered.


Mr. Brewin:: Mr. Chairman, I will keep my comments on this resolution very brief. Our party welcomes this resolution. We are not devoted or doctrinaire adherents of free enterprise-to echo an expression which I think the minister used on December 3. I think this particular form of free enterprise has left many fishermen in destitution and we are all in favour of seeing the corporation set up without delay, in order that it may help in the marketing of the products of the fishermen.
I must confess that I find myself slightly surprised to be discussing the subject of fisheries. I do not pose as an expert, though I am an appreciative consumer. My own constituency of Greenwood in Toronto is an urban constituency and not noted as a fishing centre. Yet it happens to be a fact that in our area there is a prospective fishing industry. We are right on top of a very large body of fresh water, lake Ontario, and I am given to understand that there is a real opportunity to develop a fishing industry through the use of modern methods and modern trawlers, particularly with respect to a fish named shad- and I hope no one will ask me what shad is. I think they have other, more picturesque names for it than shad. But I am told by some of my constituents that there is a very real opportunity for development in this field. This is what makes me ask the question. The hon. member for South Shore asked why, in view of previous promises made, this legislation applied only to freshwater fisheries. I ask, why is it so regionally restricted? I notice that the acting minister when speaking on December 3 said the bill will enable the establishment of board marketing of freshwater fish produced in the prairie provinces, the Northwest Territories and northwestern Ontario.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
The resolution itself is not so geographically restricted. I want to know why freshwater

fisheries-and there are some-in other sections of the internal waterways of Canada are to be excluded from the benefits of this legislation, if indeed that is the intention. I do not begrudge the benefits of the legislation to people in the prairie provinces, the Northwest Territories and northwestern Ontario. There may be an urgent need there. But why should the legislation be restricted, if indeed this is the case, to these particular geographical areas? I presume that if northern Ontario is to be included, Ontario will be one of the provinces co-operating in the setting up of the corporation. But I still do not understand this limitation and would like to know the reason for it.
I will conclude my remarks by saying we welcome this resolution because it seems to us, without having seen the details of the bill, that it represents a very healthy approach to some of the problems of people who are living under conditions of extreme poverty in this country. It envisages co-operation among the producers, the provincial governments on one side and the federal government on the other. Any illustration of this sort of co-operation among producers and governments both provincial and federal to raise the standards of our people is something that meets with our approval.


William Gordon Ritchie: Mr. Chairman, in commenting on the resolution for the introduction of a bill to establish a freshwater fish board with powers to buy fish direct from the fishermen and sell to the ultimate consumer, mainly in the United States, I would say that the bill is the result of the Mclvor commission report of 1966, which has since created throughout the industry indecision, indirection and a lack of purpose to the extent that the industry is languishing because almost no capital has been invested in it. This is the situation as far as the processing and transportation of freshwater fish is concerned. Therefore this bill is welcomed because it will put an end to the indecision that for the last three years has plagued the industry.
The fishing industry in my riding borders lakes Winnipegosis and Manitoba. It has provided almost half of Manitoba's freshwater fish. The industry has been active for over 70 years and has provided a livelihood, although a dwindling one, for a number of citizens in that time. Unfortunately, during this time there has been little improvement in the methods of fishing and little upgrading in the output per man-hour. It seems to me that the industry, being small and the fishermen
December 18. 1968

individuals who often operate part time, does not lend itself to large capital investment that would improve the output of high quality fish. Indeed, I am told that other than the introduction of nylon mesh nets there has in the past 40 years been little change in the fishing on lakes Winnipegosis and Manitoba.
The fishermen involved vary from families who over the years have found the industry has provided them with an occupation giving a reasonable standard of living, down to many marginal people who eke out a living on a part time basis. One survey indicates that over half the fishermen are Indians, with many more Metis people, so that in many respects this board could be considered to be a development board with the idea of helping these people to either achieve a better standard of living with increased income or phase out their operations and disperse the fishermen into more gainful occupations which will provide a better income.
Approximately 80 per cent of the fish is sold on international markets, mainly in Chicago, Cleveland and New York. Although the minister has implied that the freshwater fish industry has an almost captive market, it comes into competition with saltwater fish, meats and other animal protein foods, so there is a definite limit to what this product will bring in markets related to other meats. In other words, the price is dependant on the price of other consumer meats in the great American cities where freshwater fish is marketed.
One of the great problems of the industry has been the failure to supply a uniform product to the consumer and the inspection and grading of fish has been inadequate, resulting in wide variations in quality. This has detracted from the saleability of the fish. In this area the government, either provincial or federal, which alone can supply adequate inspection facilities, seems to have been derelict in its duty.
The fish products have been bought by fish companies, which in turn have exported the fish to the United States markets. The fish companies need export licences which are obtainable from the province in which they operate. My understanding is that over half the fish the marketing of which will be affected by this bill comes from Winnipeg. These companies vary a great deal in size, facilities and ability to market fish in the continental U.S. markets. Some companies in Winnipeg- these are limited to four or five-seem to have adequate storage, marketing, processing
Fisheries
and transportation facilities and have been able to advance to the fishermen a reasonable amount of money as an initial payment. However, there are other companies with very limited facilities to process, store and export fish and there has been complaint that such companies may operate to drive down the price of fish to the producer. It is hoped that this board will provide a more orderly marketing in the freshwater fish industry.
There has been widespread feeling among fishermen that the fish companies have taken advantage of the economic position of the fisherman and his vulnerability to changes in price and supply, and have made considerable profits at the expense of the fishermen. The fish companies' reply to this complaint is that their profits have not been large and that an examination of their books would not indicate that theirs has been a very lucrative business. Another complaint is that the fish companies have not made any great effort to expand marketing facilities or invest further in processing and storage. The implementation of this bill will at least settle that problem, whether it be that the fish companies should expand further or be taken over by the government.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)
One of the problems, of course, is that the fish caught are of two main varieties. There are those of the marketable variety bringing a fairly good price on the market, and large quantities of so-called coarse fish that have a very low saleability. Various uses of this coarse fish have been investigated, such as use in conjunction with alfalfa plants etc., but the answer from the processors is that it is quite an expensive method of providing protein, even at the low price which the fish bring to the producer. However, these coarse fish must be removed, along with the saleable varieties, otherwise the lakes would soon produce no fish at all, so in some aspects fishing is necessary in order to keep the good species available. One of the most promising aspects of the statement of the minister is that research will be carried on to attempt to make the lakes more productive, and I feel that in the long run this is an approach that might well make the industry reasonably productive and provide for its people a reasonable level of income.
I should like to point out that marketing boards in the past have been less than successful in many fields. Most marketing boards that have been successful have dealt

December 18, 1963
Fisheries
with commodities such as grain, that is nonperishable, which have relatively few importers or exporters and which can be stored for long periods of time.
Even producer boards which operate in the interest of producers alone have not always fared too well. When there is a marketing problem, the reference of the marketing to a board does not automatically ease the problem or cure it. The seasonal nature of the freshwater fish industry, the low level of the productivity of many of the fishermen, the scattered nature of the various sources of fish, scattered over hundreds of thousands of square miles, and the fact that the fishing industry as a whole is in a serious state, as we well know from listening to the maritime members in this house, coupled with the fact that many of the freshwater fishermen are at a sustenance level, will make the work of this board difficult for some time. The hope is expressed that this board can bring about rationalization, price stability and marketing quality.
I will await this bill with considerable interest to see what ideas the government may have on bringing a reasonable degree of stability to this industry. However, I will withhold my judgment whether or not his marketing board will be successful in raising the level of income of the fishermen who are mainly living at a sustenance level,


Mr. Lundrigan:: Mr. Chairman, I think it is in order, in beginning my few remarks on this resolution, to refer to the fact, which is perhaps more important than the resolution itself, that we do not have with us today either the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce or the minister to whom I and my colleagues have posed questions day after day concerning the marketing of fish, namely the Minister of Fisheries or his parliamentary secretary. This perhaps in itself is indicative of an attitude which has pervaded the nation regarding the fishing industry of Canada. We have been asking questions day after day regarding the government's position on fisheries, its policy and its programs. We have had nothing more than shrugs of shoulders and frivolous remarks here and there, a sort of comic relief for the house, when the problem of fisheries is brought before the house for discussion. I think the absence today of the ministers concerned and of other members who should be taking an active interest in fisheries should be brought to the attention of the house because one of the saddest things about our fishing industry is that no one in

the Liberal government seems to care very much any longer about what is going on.
In 1963, amazingly enough, the Pearson government during its election campaign made a great statement that the government, if elected, would bring before the house and put before the nation a great program to solve the problems of our fishing industry. Of course, true to the words of the man who became prime minister after the 1963 election, a meeting of the provincial ministers of fisheries was held in 1964 at which a statement was made, which was quoted today by the hon. member for South Shore, that the federal government was going to bring forward a Magna Carta for the fishing industry of Canada. This statement was made by the former minister of fisheries, Mr. Robichaud.
In considering the resolution before the house today we are reminded of the words of the President of the Privy Council spoken on December 3, 1968 as recorded at page 3464 of Hansard. This is what he said:
I might remind hon. members, Mr. Chairman, that in 1964 a federal-provincial conference established a committee to study this whole question. After this study was made, in 1965 the Mclvor commission was appointed to look into the question. The commission agreed largely with the findings of the province of Manitoba, which had also studied the matter and in which province aproximately 40 per cent of the production originates.
I can only conclude that what we are studying here now is the magna carta for the fishing industry of the Canadian nation. Day after day since the house opened in September we have posed questions regarding the government's policy on fisheries. We asked what the government's position was regarding the whole fishing industry of Canada.


James Aloysius McGrath: They had no policy.


John Howard Lundrigan: I agree with the hon. member that they had no policy. Back in September some of my colleagues asked questions of the Minister of Fisheries who answered that the government was going to make an announcement very shortly on the fishing industry of Canada and on its policy. We have received the same answer day after day. Meanwhile, the industry has gone on the rocks, and now we are faced with a resolution which was brought in the first day the house opened and which is presented to the house for debate only today. I wonder why it has taken so long to come before the house, and yet we are to believe that this is the magna carta for the fishing industry. My great regret is that some of my colleagues
December 18, 1968

who have a great knowledge of the fishing industry were not given the opportunity during the past election-but perhaps they will have it in the next election-to bring their influence to bear in solving many of our problems.
I should like to draw the attention of the house to a remark which was made with regard to the resolution. May I say that if the goals of this resolution are ever to be reached, then nobody can take exception to it. Of course the ideals were enunciated at page 3464 of Hansard, as follows:
The objectives of this legislation will be a more orderly marketing for the benefit of the whole fishery, and by this means the achievement of higher and more stable prices for the catch; to provide the fishermen with a better share of the market value of their fish; and to expand total sales and over-all production in the fishery.
These ideals, as enunciated in the house on December 3, cannot be taken exception to. I think it is commendable of the government to have such an attitude, but I wonder if this answers all the problems faced by the Canadian fishery. I contend that there is a great contradiction between this statement on the goals of the resolution and a statement contained in the resolution which states that the purpose of the marketing board is:
-to provide that the corporation shall conduct its operations on a self-sustaining financial basis without appropriations therefor by parliament;
Might I stress the fact that the marketing board is to conduct its operations on a selfsustaining financial basis. I think it is a very important statement.
There is another point which concerns me-and I regret, as I am sure do all hon. members, that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Fisheries are not here to speak on that point.
I wonder if it is true that the government has given up its interest in the Canadian fishing industry, which appears to be the case. I am not sure whether this is a result of the government's lack of interest, or of some pressure being put on it from the outside. For example, 1 remember asking the Minister of Fisheries a question during a committee hearing about two weeks ago to which he replied that a commitment had been made to the United States government that the deficiency payments to the fishing industry would be discontinued at the end of October. There was a further commitment that the government of Canada would not involve itself in any form of assistance to the industry that may be construed as aid or as a subsidy. I am wondering
Fisheries
if this is the reason for the inclusion of this definite indication that the industry has to pay its way. I would be delighted if this government could introduce a program indicating the government's desire to put the industry on its legs. Then, if the industry shows it can be self-sustaining we will be satisfied, but that provision should be made before the industry is asked to be self-sustaining. The minister made a similar statement in Boston, and it is included here. He said we were setting up a corporation to help the industry. The first thing the government says, however, is that the industry had better pay its way because the government is not going to give it any assistance.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
The minister admits the United States government has not taken issue with this attitude. The U.S. government stated they were going to go along with the commitment that no help would be given the industry, regardless of the situation in which this already disabled industry finds itself. Again we have to look back upon what has happened in the past few months. The federal government was paying the Atlantic fishermen a little assistance on the salt they used for the preservation of their catch. This amounted to $300,000, almost as much as will be spent on the great festivities connected with the opening of the cultural centre in Ottawa. This was the amount of money being paid by the Canadian government to Atlantic fishermen. It was taken away at the beginning of this year. Then we lost the insurance which was being paid for the fishermen. This insurance was taken away on the flimsy excuse that not many people claimed losses, so it did not serve any purpose.
The deficiency payments were cut off as of October 30. These things indicate the way this government has literally given up the ghost on this industry and allowed it to go by the boards. If this is the answer with which the government of Canada is coming up for our fishing industry for the whole country, then I say we are in an extremely sad state of affairs. We are all aware of the many problems the industry faces. Only last Friday evening my colleagues in this party had a chance to present to the Minister of Fisheries the serious state of affairs- facing the fishing industry on the Atlantic coast. I am not sure that we convinced him how serious the situation was. This week there was the announcement of a very tragic situation. I think perhaps some hon. members might not agree

December 18. 1968
Fisheries
with this, but one of our biggest fishing industries announced that it was closing. We have lost four fish plants and we will lose another ten on the east coast in another week or so. Four thousand people are out of work right at the moment.
My colleague, the hon. member for St. John's East, as well as other members, rose in the house on the day the announcement was made, to question the Prime Minister. He shrugged his shoulders and said he was unable to pull the answers out of his hip pocket. His ministers were not in the house. We did not get any chance to ask the Minister of Fisheries any questions, nor did we get any satisfactory answers. I am afraid the whole economy of one of our provinces will go by the boards unless the government listens to representations from the Atlantic area. I am sure some members in the house have wondered if the situation were really serious, but I am sure they realize now the serious condition of the industry.
We have a prices support board which came into existence a number of years ago. There was a review of that program and the board was reinstituted in 1952. This prices support board gives the government all the power it needs to take care of the slump in our industry. The government has done nothing. The industry is going on the rocks and we sit by. We are going to wait until tomorrow or next week, but still nothing worth while comes from the government. I am wondering if the government has the intention of trying to beef up the industry, or if it is going to sit by and allow it to go on the rocks. If we do not get action of a general nature in a matter of weeks, we won't have to worry. As I think the hon. member for Bonavista-Trinity said last week, we will not have to solve the problems of the fishing industry but instead we will have the problem of creating a fishing industry, since there will be nothing left.
I am not going to continue any longer. I believe some concepts in the resolution are healthy. I think the expansion of this idea in some directions might be healthy, too. All I am saying is that it grieves me to stand here in the house, having taken up fisheries problems in Canada since 1964, and have to accept this as the Magna Carta of the fishing industry. If this is the Magna Carta of the fishing industry, then God help it.


James Aloysius McGrath: We had a manifestation of the same arrogance a few months ago when the minister cancelled the salt rebate program. Granted, this was an ad hoc program, but the minister cancelled it right in the middle of the fishing season. The obvious question to ask is: Why not wait until the end of the season? The program had been in effect for many years, and its cancellation in the middle of the season brought great hardship to the fishermen on the Atlantic coast.
What alternative program did the government offer the house? They had no alternative. The government were not prepared to say to the house that although they were doing away with the salt rebate program they were implementing another program in its place. "Let them eat cake" is the answer of this government to the fishermen of this country.
On the same television program last night the minister also made the extraordinary statement that there would be additional closing downs of fish plants. In the name of efficiency, he said, more plants would have to close down. He said this in the midst of a developing crisis, four fish plants having already had to close down, two fish plants having had to close down in my constituency during the last two years, and one fish plant having closed down a few months ago in the constituency of the hon. member for Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe. This makes a total of seven closings in the last two years. Yet the minister admits last night on national television that there will be still further shutdowns.


Mr. Marshall:: Some Christmas present!


James Aloysius McGrath: As the hon. member says, some Christmas present to the fishermen of Canada! Some Christmas present to the people of Newfoundland! Some Santa Claus!
A close comparison to this callous inhumanity on the part of the government is the program that the late Mr. Stalin instituted in Russia in the 1930's whereby, in a move to make the Russian agricultural industry more efficient, the administration set out to destroy one million peasants. In a move to make our fishing industry more efficient, this government has set out on a deliberate policy of doing away with the few jobs that do exist today in the fishing industry in Canada. As the minister said last night on national television, there will have to be further shutdowns of fish plants in the interest of efficiency.
What kind of government is this? What kind of heartless ministry is this that could so callously and cold heartedly comment in
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this way upon the real and human tragedy that is involved? The hon. member opposite who laughs would probably not be so amused by this if he knew some of the statistics that we are aware of. For example, the average income of the Newfoundland fisherman is $1,000 a year.


Jack Marshall: It will be less after this.


James Aloysius McGrath: It will be less after this, because it will be nil. These fishermen still have to buy food and pay the same prices paid by people much better endowed. They still have to buy their gear. What is even worse, they have to suffer under a government that does not seem to care about them. "Let them eat cake" is the attitude of the government. Let more plants close down.
The minister admitted that there were a few efficient plants in the maritimes and that he still has great hopes for the industry and that it will become more efficient. Then he said that the government will come up with a program in its own good time. As a matter of fact, he said, if I may paraphrase him: We plan on coming in with a new program in March of next year.
The hon. member who has just taken his seat referred to the Magna Carta of the last government, which was in January, 1964. According to the Ottawa Journal for January 25, 1964, Hon. H. J. Robichaud announced a Magna Carta for fishermen. The fishermen were to be placed on a par with the farmers of Canada. If I may just read part of this article, it commences:
Winding up five days of closed talks, the federal-provincial fisheries conference came forth Friday with a pledge to design a national development program that would bring Canadian fishermen the same benefits given to farmers.
In 1964 the same government was in power that is in power today. We have a new Minister of Fisheries from the province of British Columbia, of which he boasted last night when saying some disparaging things about the province of Newfoundland, to the effect that we can only suffer by comparison. But still there is no fisheries policy in this country. Where is the Magna Carta of 1964, so much talked of and so much heralded, in the program of the government today? Even the premier of Newfoundland, Mr. Smallwood, was ecstatic about the conference results. According to the article he said there was agreement on all sides for the proposition that the fishing industry should be treated the same as agriculture, and he called it a Magna Carta for the fishing industry.

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Fisheries
Today we see seven fish plants having to close down, or in the process of closing down, and the minister announcing on television last night that there will have to be further shutdowns if the industry is to become more efficient. I have one question for the Minister of Fisheries, and I am sorry that he is not here now. What is to become of the Canadian citizens who eke out a living working 50 or 60 hours a week in fish plants and consider themselves blessed to have the opportunity to do so? What will become of them if there are further shutdowns in the industry?
In the Atlantic provinces today this government stands condemned as being without heart, cold and calculating. One can only compare its policy to what happened in Russia in the 1930's.


An hon. Member:: Six o'clock.


James Aloysius McGrath: The hon. member says "six o'clock". It looks as though it is the eleventh hour for the fishing industry because it is on the verge of total collapse.
I have one further comment to make. If the government does not realize the seriousness of the situation and what is involved in human terms here, then we will have a crisis in this country that will be unprecedented in its proportions.
Before I resume my seat may I say we are anxious to see the legislation. The freshwater fish industry will be affected by the legislation, and the provincial governments are both involved and anxious to see this bill, as are all of us. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, we have no objection to the resolution passing at this time.


Daniel Aiken Lang: Mr. Chairman, might we fail to see the clock for a moment and with the consent of the committee, if no other hon. members wish to speak, carry the resolution and see the bill?


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: We on this side are agreed to that, Mr. Chairman.


Daniel Aiken Lang: I think many of the questions asked by hon. members opposite will be answered, or certainly sharpened, by the bill itself, and I look forward to their having the chance to see it. The bill has resulted from many discussions between the provincial governments and the federal government, and of course the report of the Mclvor commission.
One hon. member asked whether this was a matter in which the provincial governments
had co-operated or were willing to accept. It is indeed something that they want very badly indeed. I may say to the hon. member for Greenwood that the question as to which areas are included under the bill depends largely upon discussions and the indications of interest by the provinces in regard to what can be worked out at this time. This bill and all the discussions connected therewith have had the very close attention of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce as well as the Minister of Fisheries, who unfortunately cannot be here at the moment because both are on urgent government business. I was joining them when I was suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly summoned to deal with this matter.
[DOT] (6:00 p.m.)
I thank hon. members for their patience.
I should like to express appreciation to the hon. member for Battleford-Kindersley and to the hon. member for the Northwest Territories for agreeing to reserve their comments until second reading. I may say I have also discussed this matter with the hon. member for Essex, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries, who is keenly interested in this subject.
A board of the kind proposed could do a great deal to meet the marketing problems of this industry, and the difficulties surrounding its rationalization. It could help to deal with the situation which arises when a number of suppliers are suddenly able to enter the market. I look forward to further debate on the bill and on that occasion I shall try to deal with the sharpened questions asked by hon. members.


Albert Béchard: Shall the resolution carry?


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: On division.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Lang (Saskaioon-Humboldt) (for Mr. Pepin) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-148, to regulate interprovincial and export trade in freshwater fish and to establish the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, December 19, 1968