1967-06-09

PRESENCE IN GALLERY OF PRESIDENT OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF CZECHOSLOVAKIA

Mr. Speaker:: May I bring to the attention of hon. members the presence in the Speaker's gallery of the president of the national assembly of Czechoslovakia and Mrs. Las-tovicka.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: On behalf of all members I wish them an enjoyable stay in Ottawa and a pleasant visit to Montreal, Quebec and Cornwall.

On behalf of my colleagues, I wish our distinguished visitors a pleasant stay with us.



TRANSPORTATION


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if on motions I might make a very brief personal explanation on the matter raised yesterday by the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Olson).
I have checked my recollections and they are quite correct, namely that what I said about the abandonment of branch lines was that all applications for protected lines would be withdrawn as soon as the bill was passed. I have had a very careful check made of all my references, and I indicated that in the case of unprotected lines, it would not be necessary for new applications to be made but that the applications would be dealt with under the provisions and with all the protection of the new law, and that if there was any delay in establishing the Canadian Transport Commission the Board of Transport Commissioners has the power given to it by parliament to deal with these matters in the meantime. It would not be reasonable to hold them up because of a delay in the establishment of the new commission, but the new protection and the new provisions will apply.
[DOT] (11:10 a.m.)



CANADA DAY


Mr. Sianley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-129, respecting Canada Day.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to give to our national holiday the name Canada Day, and to provide for it to continue to be celebrated on July 1 except when that day falls on a Sunday. This bill would make one other provision, namely that in any year in which July 1 falls on a Saturday, Canada Day would be observed on that day but Monday, July 3, would also be a legal holiday. If arrangements could be made for this bill to be passed shortly it would be effective, so far as its latter provision is concerned, this year; otherwise the next year that provision would be effective would be 1972.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the order: Government notices of motions:
June 7-The Minister of Transport-That the annual reports for 1966 of the Canadian National Railways and of the Canadian National Railways securities trust, tabled April 26, 1967, and the auditor's report to parliament for 1966 in respect of the Canadian National Railways tabled May 29, 1967, be referred to the standing committee on transport and communications.
Mr. Speaker:: Pursuant to standing order 21 this notice of motion is transferred to and ordered for consideration under government orders at the next sitting of the house.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the
June 9, 1967

Inquiries of the Ministry satisfactory conclusion of the situation in the Middle East in what I might call an armistice,
I would ask the Prime Minister this question. What is the situation now existing in respect of the reconstitution of a peace keeping force, has the government of Canada offered to the United Nations directly or indirectly the services of a mobile peace keeping force, and if so, in what numbers?
Right Kon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):
Mr. Speaker, the question of the reconstitution of UNEF does not arise because that force has been disbanded. Whether the United Nations security council will request the establishment of a new observation group or peace force, or whether they will request the enlargement of the existing United Nations truce organization will depend upon decisions taken at the security council. They are at the moment considering resolutions which will have a bearing on this. No request has been made of the Canadian government for participation in any force because there is no force in being except UNTSO, and we are already participating in UNTSO.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquillam):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the right hon. Prime Minister. With respect to the two resolutions which are now before the security council, one introduced by the Americans, which I believe incorporates in part the Canadian resolution, and the other by the Soviet union, I should like to ask the Prime Minister what position Canada will take with regard to these two resolutions. Also, can we have some assurance from the government that the Canadian representative at the United Nations will oppose any resolution which would require Israel to withdraw to its previous boundaries without a guarantee as to its security and its access to the open sea?


Mr. Pearson:: Mr. Speaker, it is not possible for me to say what stand we will take in respect of any particular resolution before the security council. I understand that at least one or two of these resolutions are being re-examined in the light of the current situation. This does not apply to the Canadian resolution, which is still on the table. One of the resolutions, that is the United States resolution, has an element in it which could effect a withdrawal, but I gather it is being examined this morning, as is the Soviet resolution. Until we know exactly what resolution is being considered at the security council I think


it is impossible for me to answer my hon. friend's question.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. In view of the fact that the security council is in the mood to order a
cease fire in the Middle East, would the Canadian government give consideration to introducing a resolution calling for a cease fire in Viet Nam?


Lester Bowles Pearson: My hon. friend knows of course that the situations are not in any way parallel.



CANADIAN CENTENNIAL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, may I state, in reply to certain questions which have been asked in the house recently, that an order in council has been passed proclaiming Monday, July 3, 1967 as a public holiday throughout Canada to mark the centennial observance of Confederation day, which this year falls on a Saturday.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have a question in that connection. I notice the Prime Minister said "Confederation day". I thought July 1 was still Dominion day. Has the government changed that by order in council?


John George Diefenbaker: I do not know whether the Prime Minister heard the question I asked a while ago. I now ask him specifically, in view of the fact that the statutes of Canada refer to July 1 as Dominion day and he this morning called it Confederation day, does this mean more chiselling away of part of our heritage, when the government refers to this as Confederation day without a decision of parliament?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I really cannot answer such a picayune, chiselling question.


John George Diefenbaker: I ask the Prime Minister this question, which is not to be answered by facetious attempts at wit. Is the "Dominion" in Dominion day a dirty word now?


An hon. Member:: It could be.


John George Diefenbaker: A shameful answer.
June 9, 1967



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Laprise (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture but in view of his absence, I shall put it to the Minister of Forestry and Rural Development.
As a result of the farmers' march on parliament on May 24 last, it was announced that the government would reconsider the request made by the farmers. Can the minister tell us now what decision has been reached with regard to the request the farmers made on May 24 last?


Hon. Maurice Sauve (Minister of Forestry and Rural Development):: Mr. Speaker, the dairy commission announced last Friday, in a release distributed to the press and the members of this house, a revision of its quota policy and the alleviation of its subsidy policy to dairy producers with a low quota of fluid milk deliveries, giving them the opportunity to become manufacturing milk producers.


Mr. Auguste Choquette (Lolbiniere):: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Forestry and Rural Development.
We understand from the reply given that the meeting will not take place tomorrow as previously decided?


Maurice Sauvé: No, Mr. Speaker. We had announced, after the meeting with the leaders of the farm organizations, that before June 10, the government would make its position known on the farmer's requests for changes in the dairy policy and secondly, that there would be a meeting with the representatives of farm organizations to discuss the future dairy policy and farm policy.



TRANSPORTATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reg Cantelon (Kindersley):: Mr. Speaker, I have two questions for the Minister of Transport which are relative to the statement he made this morning. The first is, does he intend to have withdrawn order in council P.C. 167/569, which appears to wipe out the application of the new bill to certain abandonments? My second question is, when will
Inquiries of the Ministry we have the new Bill C-231 proclaimed, so that any abandonments which are to be proceeded with will have the protection of the new act?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, so far as the first of the two questions is concerned, I think I would have to look at the order in council before I would dare give an opinion, and perhaps 1 would not even then.
With respect to the second question, I did my best to answer it yesterday and the answer is still the same today.


Mr. R. R. Southam (Moose Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Transport a supplementary question. In view of the fact that one of the key functions of this new commission was to be undertaken by the ancillary or independent group of cost accounting experts who were going to advise the new transport commission on economic matters relating to such things as applications for abandonment, master agency plans and so on, does the minister not think we should hold all these applications in abeyance until the new transport commission is fully constituted?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The question is argumentative.



NATURAL GAS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: My
question is addressed to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. In view of the possible rationing of natural gas in certain parts of industrial Canada, would the minister consider going to the United States government and asking that government to request their court of record, the federal power commission, to expedite proceedings as a courtesy to Canada in order that Canadian gas may be supplied to Canadian consumers?


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: I believe the federal power commission is very well aware and has said so, of the point my hon. friend has mentioned. I do not believe I have to tell the commissioners what they already know.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I do not believe the minister quite understood the full import of my first question. I repeat it very simply. Will the
1342	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry Canadian government go to the United States government and ask the United States government to go to their court of record, as a courtesy, and ask it to expedite proceedings so this emergency may be avoided?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Our concern has already been brought to the attention of the United States government.



MR. JUSTICE LANDREVILLE INQUIRY AS TO PENSION ELIGIBILITY FOLLOWING RESIGNATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Lewis (York South):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the nature of Mr. Justice Landreville's resignation and the circumstances in which that resignation was induced, will the minister assure the house that the government has no intention of compensating Mr. Justice Landreville by a generous pension?


Hon.   P.-E. Trudeau@Minister of Justice: Mr. Speaker, the word "induced" used by the hon. member might apply to persons he knows, but I do not think he should put that word in my answer.


David Lewis: I was referring to the Rand report, not the minister. He is as innocent as the driven snow.


Mr. Trudeau:: What about the report, sir?


David Lewis: The Rand report.


Mr. Maclnnis (Cape Breton South):: He does not know what you are talking about.


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I do not know that the Rand report refers to a pension-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice. Will the minister assure the house that no retired judge's pension will be awarded to Mr. Landreville without the matter first being brought to the attention of parliament?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: Mr. Speaker, I see no reason why I should give that assurance.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I direct a further supplementary question to the one I asked of the

DEBATES	June 9, 1967
Minister of Justice, in the light of the answer that he gave me a few moments ago. Has the question of a retired judge's pension for Mr. Landreville already been settled?


Pierre Elliott Trudeau: No, Mr. Speaker.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Joseph P. O'Keefe (Sf. John's East):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Can the minister tell the house whether the government has yet reached a decision on the recommendations of the Atlantic Development Board in connection with Bell Island, Newfoundland?
Hon. J. W. Pickers gill (Minister of Transport): Yes, sir, I am happy to say that the government has made a favourable decision on the recommendations. I hope an announcement of the details by the Atlantic Development Board will be possible some time soon.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: desire to direct my question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. In view of the fact that the government has seen fit to insert paid advertisements in newspapers across Canada proclaiming the week of June 11 to June 17 as veterans week and calling upon all veterans to wear their insignia as evidence of their service to Canada, will the minister inform this house when the Wood commission report will be received and whether the government will honour Canadian veterans by legislative enactment on pensions this year?


Hon. Roger Teillel (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: As to the Wood commission report. I had the opportunity of speaking to the secretary in Winnipeg the day before yesterday. It is still hoped that the report will be in our hands by the end of this month.
As to the second question, I did answer it on a number of occasions in this house and I have nothing to add.


Harold Edward Winch: A supplementary question.
Since the Wood report will be received by the end of this month, will legislative action be taken this session?
June 9, 1967



LETTER EXPLAINING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OLD AGE SECURITY AND VETERANS ALLOWANCES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay V/est):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. For the information of the members of this house would the minister inform us as to the contents of the circular letter which was sent out by the chairman of the war veterans allowance board to all war veterans allowance recipients, in which he explained the relationship between old age security and war veterans allowances, and advised them on how to proceed?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the best way of dealing with this matter might be for me to table a copy of the letter at the first opportunity, and I would be pleased to do that.



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. Has the minister any good news for the week end about the extension of Pugsley wharf terminal at Saint John, which information has been sought in two previous questions?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I was in any event intending to reply to the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam because I did not have the information yesterday. It was fortunate that I did not have it because the information I have today is much more up to date.
I am informed that tenders for the main job were opened by the National Harbours Board yesterday and that they are making a check with the lowest tenderer, the Foundation Company of Canada. There seems to be very little doubt, according to the information I have, that the subcontractors will be using Canadian steel. However, the steel contracts are subcontracts by the Foundation Company and not direct contracts let by the harbours board.
27053-86!
Inquiries of the Ministry INDUSTRY



AUTOMOBILE AGREEMENT-STATEMENT ON NEW JOBS CREATED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Industry. Yesterday the minister released figures estimating that there had been 15,900 new jobs as a result of the Canada-United States automobile treaty. My question is in arriving at this estimate did the minister take into consideration the number of people who lost jobs in the closing of several car parts manufacturing plants?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This question is out of order.



RESULTS OF SURVEY OF FOREIGN OWNED SUBSIDIARIES IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce regarding the press release he issued yesterday concerning the survey of foreign owned subsidiaries in Canada. The minister said he had had a good response from 266 of the 820 subsidiary companies operating in Canada. Since this response comes from less than one third of the companies I want to ask the minister whether in his opinion this is a good response, and when he expects to get a reply from the other 554 companies.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I do not think this question is in order.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Then may I rephrase it, Mr. Speaker. I merely ask the minister, in view of the fact that the response is from less than one third of the subsidiaries operating in Canada, when he expects to get replies from the other 554 companies.


Hon. Robert Winters (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I think I should answer that question because it leaves a misleading impression. Virtually all the companies we wrote to asking for this kind of information replied. A very small percentage of companies have not yet replied, but have said they will reply.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question. May I ask the minister why only 266 companies out of 820 mentioned by the minister in his report were asked for information?


Robert Henry Winters: I think the hon. member must be misinterpreting some of the figures, and I will have a chat with him.
COMMONS DEBATES	June 9, 1967
Inquiries of the Ministry
PUBLIC BUILDINGS	BIRTH CONTROL



VANCOUVER-REQUEST FOR CHANGE IN SITE OF NEW BUILDING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I desire to direct to the Minister of Public Works a most urgent question having to do with the city of Vancouver, but in his absence and because of the urgency of an answer being required by the city council of Vancouver, may I ask the acting minister whether he would take note of the question so an early reply may be given. Can the minister advise what consideration has been given or what decision has been reached relative to the request that the Department of Public Works make a change in the proposed site of a new federal structure to be erected in Vancouver?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I do not think that question qualifies for this period of time.


Harold Edward Winch: The Vancouver city council think it does, sir.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Danforth (Kent (Onl.)):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Because it has been indicated that there may be a release of information in July regarding the tariff changes made at Geneva, and because of the importance of the matter, may I ask the minister whether legislation will be required before any of these changes are implemented?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, some of the tariff changes that have been negotiated will not require parliamentary approval because parliament has already authorized the government to make reductions in certain tariffs. Others will require legislation because they involve reclassifications. In other matters, for example, as the change in the anti-dumping laws, parliamentary action will be required. In any event, Mr. Speaker, the changes would not come into effect until parliament had been given ample opportunity to debate the matter.



INQUIRY AS TO AMENDMENT OF CRIMINAL CODE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. Grace Maclnnis (Vancouver-Kings-way):: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Considering that yet another
great country, France, has decided to legalize birth control, might we not have a definite assurance from the Prime Minister that legislation will be introduced during this session to legalize birth control in Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think I have already indicated that-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I wonder if that is not a repetition of a question which has been asked very recently.


Winona Grace MacInnis: It
is a repetition of the answer, Mr. Speaker.



DEPARTMENT OF INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

[Stage Direction]
Administration-
1. Departmental administration, $2,209,800.
The Chairman:: Order, please. House again
in committee of supply, estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1968. Vote No. 1 is to be found on page 200 of the blue book of estimates and details are listed on page 203. Shall vote 1 carry?


Mr. Dinsdale:: Mr. Chairman, does the minister intend to make a statement to open the discussion this morning? I think it would be helpful if the minister could make a brief statement which would act as a frame of reference for our discussions today. It might even help to confine the subject and expedite proceedings in the committee. Otherwise many members, as a result of recent committee activity, I know would be inclined to range far afield.


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to made a brief comment on the work of the department, and I intend to keep it brief because I propose to deal with only three or four aspects of the department which are of the greatest importance.
June 9, 1967


Mr.   Barnell@: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, before the minister begins his remarks I wish to ask the minister and the committee whether it is proposed that we deal with the various aspects of the department in some sort of orderly sequence. That is to say, could we not take the Indian affairs branch, then the northern program, the parks program and so on, in an orderly fashion. That, I think, is partly what was in the mind of the hon. member for Brandon-Souris. I wonder if the minister could not proceed in the way the hon. member for Brandon-Souris suggested, so we do not jump all over the place or from one aspect to another of the minister's department.


Arthur Laing: Of course the hon. member who has just spoken will realize that under item 1 in the estimates the responsibility devolves upon the minister to deal with all aspects of his department. It will be my proposal to say a few words about the national parks of Canada and the historic sites and monuments work allied to that, also about my responsibilities in respect of Indian affairs and my responsibilities in respect of the development of the north. I propose to take the subjects in that order.
I wish to remind the committee that again we have a crisis in connection with the provision of park facilities in Canada, but this is a crisis of plenty and not of poverty. During last year the attendance in our national parks again increased by 15 per cent to a total of 11,300,000 persons. This is an indication of the desire of Canadians that these services be supplied. In addition we are beginning to realize that the national parks of Canada are one of the great magnets for that part of the tourist business of this country that comes from outside Canada.
We have worked most co-operatively, I think, with most of the provinces in looking toward an expansion of the national parks system.
We are progressing very well with the Kejimkujik park in Nova Scotia which will open next year for the public of Canada. We have studies under way with Ontario, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Alberta at the present time, and also a small study with the province of British Columbia dealing with the long expressed desire that is reflected by hon. members from British Columbia. Whereas we have five national parks on the Atlantic coast, it is felt that it is about time we should have one park at least on the Pacific coast of Canada.
Supply-Indian Affairs Recently we have given an undertaking to the province of British Columbia, and at the present time we are studying with British Columbia authorities an area that is very close to the Long Beach part of Vancouver island which I am informed-and I must confess I have not been there-is one of the most beautiful areas of Canada.
We have been thinking in terms of amending our act to make it possible for us to acquire additional amounts of sea shore in Canada. As I have already reported to the house, and I repeat this, we are concerned that an increasing amount of our sea shores are being purchased by persons who are not citizens of Canada. We think it is about time we took steps to see to it that an adequate amount of these open areas along the sea shores of Canada is available for national purposes-
[DOT] (11:40 ajn.)


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Does the announcement mean that the government has not been able to reach any satisfactory arrangement with the government of British Columbia regarding a park in the lower mainland around Garibaldi mountain?


Arthur Laing: I must say we have had no satisfaction in negotiating for Garibaldi park. That area is a provincial park at the present time. The province pointed out to us that there were resources there, timber and reputed resources of metal, that it wished to develop. We undertook to move the boundaries of the park so as to exclude these areas which the province thought contained resources, placing its limits at the sea shore and the Squamish river. We have not had a good response in respect of that proposal. However, I am still hopeful that some day this will be a national park, because it is reported to me by people who are authorities on alpine meadows that here we have an area unsurpassed by any in the world.
We have received good co-operation from Saskatchewan, and we hope to make an announcement at a fairly early date concerning a national park in that province. Other provinces have been very co-operative indeed.


Mr. Roxburgh:: May I ask the minister a question. How far have the discussions between the federal government and the province of Ontario advanced with respect to the establishment of a national park in this province? How soon is it expected that these talks can be concluded? How is this progressing?

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs


Arthur Laing: I appreciate the interest taken in this subject by the hon. member. He has repeatedly shown a very deep interest in these negotiations. I must tell him that we are working very well in respect of three different areas. Hon. members are aware, I believe, that the rule governing the acquisition of parks at the present time is that the province shall acquire the property free of encumbrance and turn it over to the federal government for development. Unfortunately due to a lack of foresight which is so easy to condemn, it would be very costly today for the government of Ontario to acquire a suitable area and turn it over to us. Nevertheless, even in the heavily populated and highly developed area of southern Ontario we are endeavouring to develop a park in co-operation with the province.
We have some 998 acres of national park in the province of Ontario. Had we been able to go back a hundred years we would, of course, have made other arrangements. There are two northern areas at which we are looking carefully now, but the government of Ontario is interested, if it is at all possible, in establishing a national park in the southern part of the province.
We are in some difficulty when it comes to assessing what the demand is likely to be 10 years or 20 years from now. If we fail to make some prediction even in our own minds, we feel we shall not be preparing adequately for the future. For this reason we are instituting a study of what Canadians are likely to be needing 10, 20 or 30 years from now in the field of recreation. This is something which is receiving study in other parts of the world, and it is about time we began to look into it here in Canada. Magnificent road systems have completely altered the type of people who are visiting our parks, and in many cases it is difficult to decide what kind of recreational facilities, what kind of outdoor services, should be provided for Canadians in what are primarily wilderness parks.
The need is certainly changing as compared with 30 or 40 years ago. The popularity of certain types of recreation such as skiing and the presence of magnificent ski areas in our western parks is placing a weight upon the service and raising questions to which, frankly, we do not have the answers at the present time. But we are undertaking the study to which I referred and hope to come up with a fairly accurate prediction to show where we are heading.

The committee went out to the western parks to interview people on the spot. There were protests from leaseholders to whom the department has said we cannot accept responsibility for maintaining the parks in the way we think the people of Canada want them maintained unless we clarify the position of private investment in these areas. After hearing the views of people within the parks, and of their organizations, the committee substantially confirmed the policy we had set out, that basically these parks should be maintained as wilderness areas with service arrangements under stricter control by the federal government in the operation of the leases.
We shall continue to endeavour to supply the services which Canadians want in respect of the outdoors. It will be a tremendous task, Mr. Chairman, because when one is operating an industry which is increasing at a compound rate of 15 per cent a year, problems are bound to arise. Moreover, organization is not made easier by the fact that this is a highly seasonal business, concentrated substantially within three or four months of the year. We shall continue to do our best, and I want to praise the work of our parks staff. I know what has been the response of those who use our parks today, because we get more correspondence from them than from all the others in connection with the activities of the department. Ninety eight per cent of those letters are the most laudatory and commendatory letters anyone could wish to read. About 2 per cent of them constitute complaints. They are legitimate complaints, too, and we check to find out how somebody in the service of the parks has slipped up. But in general we are beginning to believe we probably have as good a national parks service as any country in the world.
Now I should like to deal for a few moments with the subject of Indian affairs. I was asked to assume responsibility for the Indian affairs branch on January 1, 1966. I have said publicly that I did not ask the Prime Minister for this responsibility. It is a towering task. I have told the Indian people and Canadians in general that according to my assessment most ministers responsible for Indian affairs have been adjudged failures, and that after I have been on the job a little while I shall be adjudged a failure too.
e (11:50 a.m.)
This is a consideration which should be impressed upon the members of this house;
June 3, 19G7

that is, if we act wisely, achieve the co-operation of the Indian people and expend our money in such a way that we encourage the Indian people to regain their pride so they will introduce themselves to the modern economy of this country, we will have begun to break the back of this problem in the next generation. Today, out of a total budget of about $100 million, we are spending $47 million on education. I believe most members of this house will agree with me when I say that the gold ore among the Indian people today exists among those who are under the age of 20. We are endeavouring to integrate our Indian people into the educational systems of the provinces as rapidly as we possibly can, so that when they go to school they will go with a section of the Canadian population of that age group instead of going with their own people. We have found remarkable improvement in the many cases where this policy has been adopted.
I should like to say to members of this house that in respect of Indian education and co-operation with the provinces we enjoy absolutely 100 per cent co-operation. I believe there is among the Canadian people today, as I sense there is among members of this house, a desire to do the decent thing for the Indian people. In doing the decent thing I have told the Indian people I will not accept, and I hope Canadians will not accept, a general condemnation of the white man for all the troubles of the Indian people today. I think so far this attitude I have adopted has struck a commendable note with those Indians whom we wish to take over the leadership of their people in Canada today.
We hear a great deal about integration and what will happen to them in the future. I do not know what will happen. I believe it would be premature for anyone to say that the Indian people will become totally integrated and lost as Indians in this country. I think it is premature to say this. There is the difficulty today that so many of the Indian people want to restore the glories of their people and return to their own administration within their own tribes and their own areas. At the same time there are others who say they must become modern and have jobs and high wages just like other Canadians. Then there are others who say "Go away and leave us alone".
Many people today condemn the red tape and intrusions by the government into the affairs of the Indian people. There are those
Supply-Indian Affairs who say "Don't go away and leave us: Remember the historic treaties, the indispensable lifeline we have in the commitments that were made in the historic past". So here we have a people who require help but who, in my view, require the right kind of help.
While I am asking and will continue to ask for money votes in respect of Indian affairs, I have stated to my Indian friends that if we misspend this money or waste it, we will do the problem far more harm than good. Today we are spending in the order of $16 million for welfare among the Indian people in Canada at a time when I feel we could reduce that amount by two thirds if we were doing the right things.
This is pretty much all I have to say about Indian affairs. We have a national Indian advisory board which I believe is representative of the various areas of Canada. We are consulting more and more with the members of this board. We are endeavouring to encourage them to develop the Indian lands, which total six million acres in this country. Some of these lands are extremely valuable. There are some still undeveloped Indian lands in Canada today of fantastic value. Some of these are within our cities. Under the provisions of the Indian Act today we are not permitted to force the Indians to release these lands for development purposes. We can, however, encourage them to do so, and we are doing this. In many instances the Indians themselves are taking a hand in the development of these areas. In some cases they are entering into contracts involving amounts as high as half a million dollars. They are receiving these large amounts in respect of development leases they have granted for the purpose of building houses and so on.
A difficulty exists in respect of the more remote reserves. There are reserves in Canada to which there is no access other than by air. Yet there are Indians in these places. We are of the opinion that as time goes on we may well have to offer these Indian people the opportunity to move from these ridiculously remote areas down to other areas where there is productive land.
I have endeavoured to be cautious in my work with the Indians because I had not greatly familiarized myself with the Indian problems, although I did know a great number of Indians in the province of British Columbia. I am not pessimistic about the progress we have made in the last year. Rather I am optimistic. I believe the much appreciated interest I have noted on the part

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs of individual members of parliament pertaining to the Indian people is a reflection of the Canadian wish to try to do something for them. It may be that our conscience is beginning to prick us. However, we have endeavoured to do something, although in some cases of past efforts have often left the Indians in a position which is no credit to Canada or Canadians.
I should now like to say a few words about the development of northern Canada. We are beginning to find that north of latitude 60 we probably have, in respect of those resources which lie under the earth, the richest areas of Canada. In recent years we have seen a number of mines developed in the Northwest Territories along latitude 62. As time goes on many of the developments will be extended farther north. There is a tremendous amount of new interest in the area by oil companies, mining companies, metal companies and exploration companies in general.
It is my view that this is an area about which we know very little in respect of individual places. I think it is an area which probably is unsurpassed anywhere on the face of the earth for those who want to seek out metal. I believe very little of it has been looked at as yet. Fortunately we have secured the attention of large investment groups in respect of transportation and exploration.
We have done a few things to encourage exploration. I have told the investment people frankly that we have put small bits of cheese in traps to encourage them to go in there. The exploration subsidy program which I announced a year ago in my view is one of the finest things we have ever done, because people are interested all over the country. In the few instances where we have made very modest allowances of $20,000 or $30,000, finds have been made which are extremely important and which have a good chance of becoming mines in the future. In addition we have the enthusiasm of the transportation companies. I believe this north country of ours will go through a revolution by virtue of the introduction of the jumbo airplane. I believe transportation by plane will become sufficiently economical to provide food and transportation to those areas in such a way that this northland of ours will be entirely changed. As a matter of fact the officials of one or two of the mines which are located there have told me they are in the process of reviewing their entire operation in the light of certain offers which have been made to them by air transport companies.

I should like to pay a compliment to the air lines which are operating in this area. I do not think many members of this house realize that since six months ago two companies which service the Arctic area have been serviced by jet aircraft. Daily service is changing the situation in the north.
[DOT] (12 noon)
When I accepted responsibility in respect of the north I called together the heads of mining companies, and we met for a full day. At the end of the meeting I said "Gentlemen, tell me what the north needs." They looked at each other and finally one man said "I'll tell you what it needs. It needs television". He went on to say that if we could give them hockey night in Canada even three days late the men would be happy to stay there twice as long.
I think probably there is much to be said for that opinion. At the present time in cooperation with the C.B.C. we have a frontier package, so-called, which gives them four hours of television per day including news, some of which is 24 hours late, and this is a very satisfactory development. Yellowknife is one of the areas getting this service, and it is very well received there. We have been informed by the C.B.C. that they will have 27 to 40 of these packages ready for us in about a year. This will bring a tremendous change in the north, because the biggest difficulty in the area is isolation. If the problems relating to isolation can be solved many other difficulties will disappear, and I am sure my predecessors in office will agree that these people have not been properly served by radio alone. They want to see what is going on in the outside world as well as hear about it. I am sure my two predecessors in office will agree that in some of these areas radio reception has never been noted for its efficiency.
I have outlined some of the aspects of the north. There is no more optimistic or promising an area in this nation today than our north. The finds being made there are of very great order indeed. I can think of one example. There was to be a small clean out operation of a silver mine about three years ago. I was told that last month it had become the biggest silver producer in Canada. We all know, of course, about the historical mine at Pine Point. I am not giving any tips at this time, because this is a matter of record, and the annual report presented at the last annual meeting of the company showed $32 million net earnings from gross sales of $42 million. With that kind of thing taking place I
June 9, 1967



am sure hon. members can visualize the type of riches that lie in that northern country of ours.
We will continue to be as optimistic as possible because we believe that the old time suggestion that we should leave the north in cold storage until we consume everything we produce down south and then go north is not a sound policy for this country. If we are going to built Canada in any depth at all it is imperative that we look now at all of its regions. The challenges in that particular part of Canada are such that if, Canadians do not respond with some of the spirit of the frontier, this will not be a good sign for Canada. We are now finding that young Canadians are showing more interest than has been apparent for many years in going to northern Canada to participate in the magnificent development now taking place.
Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. members for listening to this very short summary of the position of the department, and should questions arise I shall endeavour to answer them.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I think hon. members will agree that it was good to have a statement from the minister helping us to pinpoint some of the problems and progress being made in this important Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. The minister has been mainly concerned with outlining the progress that has been made through the various activities of his department. Let me assure him that hon. members on this side of the house will fill in the gaps by referring to some of the problems that have developed during the past several years in the various areas of responsibility of the minister's department.
Let me begin by indicating that the old department of northern affairs and national resources was one of the first to come under the scrutiny of the royal commission on government organization, popularly known as the Glassco commission. I imagine that during the past few years the experts have been busily engaged in assessing the functions of the department, and that before too long we will have a report on the operations of those officials and experts who are endeavouring to set up this department to promote greater efficiency having regard to the guide lines laid down by the Glassco report.
The minister made some earlier statements on this subject, indicating that while during 27053-87
Supply-Indian Affairs the current year the estimates would not follow the pattern recommended by the Glassco report, he hoped that by next year we would have some evidence of improvement and increased efficiency. As a result we are faced with a discussion of the estimates pretty well on the basis of the traditional pattern. To assist in an orderly discussion we will endeavour to follow the outline laid down by the minister.
In the book of estimates the Indian affairs branch is mentioned first. I think that is the proper place for this important activity. It has been said that the first shall be last and the last shall be first, so perhaps I should leave my comments regarding Indian affairs to the conclusion of my remarks this morning.
A great deal of information on the operations of the department was obtained by hon. members on all sides of the house as a result of committee examination last year into three separate areas. The estimates of the department were very thoroughly considered by the members in committee. Many recommendations were made and many problems were discussed. No doubt the result will be a shortening of the length of time required to consider the estimates today. Several members of the committee on parks spent several days visiting western parks where very real problems have been precipitated by the situation outlined this morning by the minister.
Some members toured the north, and I am sure some of those pilgrims who were privileged to travel north of the 60th parallel for the first time during a period of two weeks will have many points to raise which came to their attention during that time. In addition to the actual confrontation between members of the committee and residents of Banff and Jasper we had many representations from interested groups. Out of these will eventually come a comprehensive policy of park development in Canada, we trust.
[DOT] (12:10 p.m.)
Then of course there is our Indian affairs committee, which has planned an extensive itinerary of visits to reservations from east to west but still has to get off the ground in this respect. I am appreciative of the operational difficulties because of the crowded calendar during centennial year, but I hope this committee will be able to continue its proposed itinerary during the current year.
Merely making reference to the multiplicity of the activities of these various committees indicates that we have had a busy year; some of us feel, too busy. I should like to suggest

June 9. 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs -I have suggested it before-that we might better approach this matter of committee consideration of the functions of the department if we could combine and co-ordinate the committee on Indian affairs and that on northern affairs, which in many respects have the same personnel and are always running into conflict because of the obvious difficulties that arise. I strongly recommend that the government give consideration to bringing together these two committees. The committee system recently has expanded its operations and as a result we are treading on frontier territory. I think every hon. member who has faced this difficulty will agree that the time has come for co-ordination and co-operation between these committees.
I should now like to refer to some of the specific points dealt with by the minister. He referred to the problems that have arisen in Canada and indeed in our neighbour to the south, the United States, with reference to the demands on our park facilities. We have been talking about this for many years now. We had a conference away back in 1961, six years ago-it seems a long time ago-which was dedicated to a comprehensive consideration of how we should best develop, preserve and conserve our renewable resources.
I have made many speeches on this subject in the past and it is not necessary to be repetitive today. However, I should like to deal with one or two specific problems. We all recognize, or at least we give lip service to the fact, that we must expand our national parks system. The only developments in this regard in the past six or seven years have been the Terra Nova national park in Newfoundland and the second park in Nova Scotia which has that unpronounceable name, Ke-jimkujik.


Mr. McCleave:: Mr. Chairman, I have to rise on a point of order. These are fairly simple maritime names. There is Kejimkujik in Nova Scotia, and Kouchibouguac in New Brunswick. I think they should be pronounced correctly.


Thomas Miller Bell: What about the Hansard reporter?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for Halifax for that lesson in pronunciation. These parks were developed back in the late 1950's and early 1960's, and the crisis grows apace. We need action now, not in the future. Unfortunately there has been a delay in implementing the recommendations that came out of the resources for

tomorrow conference and those of the Audubon society which is active in these matters, which suggested that as one of our centennial projects we might embark upon an emergency program of park development. Obviously that has not materialized, because we are now halfway through our centennial year.
The matter was referred to the federal-provincial conference on national parks that was set up back in 1962 to deal precisely with this problem. They are still in deliberation and meet from time to time, but we have had no concrete action therefrom. We all agree that there is a crisis in the use and availability of land in Canada for park purposes, not only for national park purposes but recreational parks. As far back as 1962 and 1963 a conference was set up within the department which was designed to bring the provincial governments, who have responsibility in these matters, into consultation with the federal government so there could be some positive, concrete action to resolve the difficulty. They are still discussing this question.
I should like to pay tribute to the federal-provincial parks association, which was recommended during the course of the resources for tomorrow conference. It is a voluntary group made up of businessmen, recreational authorities and conservation authorities who act without any cost whatsoever to advise the government park policy. We had the privilege of listening to the president of the association, Mr. Frame, and its executive secretary, Mr. Gavin Henderson. They came before the parliamentary committee and made some very sensible recommendations as to how the current, continuing crisis in respect of the use of our parks might be resolved. High on their list of priorities was a program to develop recreational park facilities particularly near the large urban centres of Canada.
I do not have to go into the theory of this matter because it is now so well known to the public of Canada, and not only to the experts. We know about the pressures created by leisure time, the increase in mobility and the population explosion. We talk about these things ad infinitum; we know all about them. All we need now is action by the government. We know the problem, and for the past several years we on this side of the house have been looking for positive announcements and action from the government, which after all has executive responsibility in these matters. We have been hoping that something might
June 9, 1967

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs


Arthur Laing: Would the hon. member permit a question? Is the hon. member suggesting now that he supports perpetual leases in the parks? He has criticized me for acting arbitrarily in respect of these leases, but I would like him to explain to us why he introduced an order in council in 1959 which ended perpetual leases and made it obligatory on the minister to issue 42-year leases only. This is precisely what we are doing. Our policy is in accordance with the order in council of 1959 introduced by the then minister.


Mr. Lambert:: The minister is not serious when he is saying that.


Arthur Laing: I am entirely serious, and the bluster of my hon. friend does not detract from my seriousness.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: There is no one in the parks who believes the minister.


Arthur Laing: There are a great many people in the parks who believe me, and when it comes to support for our policies with regard to national parks, my policy has more support than the ideas of my hon. friend, who would boil everything down to a dollar bill.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: That is a lot of nonsense.


Arthur Laing: We will see about that some
day, but I would like the hon. member for Brandon-Souris to answer my question. Is he or is he not in support of perpetual leases?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am very pleased that the minister has pinpointed the crux of the problem, because I did not intend to deal with it, nor is there time today. This is a statement which he has made repeatedly, and it is quite contrary to the facts.
With reference to the further exchange across the floor of the house, it is true that the minister has strong support for his policies from the Liberal members on the committee who do not understand the peculiar problems in western Canada. But I think he must be looking at the map with blinkers if he thinks he has popular support in western Canada for what he is endeavouring to do.
With reference to the specific question put to me by the minister, I was not minister until 1960. The minister claimed that the previous administration arbitrarily cancelled perpetual leases. All it did was to declare a moratorium on any further leaseholds in the national parks, which was a sensible policy because obviously the parks were becoming overexploited. In some instances this was used to cancel out the perpetuity feature

when some of the existing leases came up for renewal.
We will speak about this in greater detail later on. When this came to my attention I, as minister, immediately issued an order in council to avoid this difficulty and at the same time deal with the necessity for closer control, reflecting the attitudes which emerged out of the resources for tomorrow conference in respect of wise management of these parks. This was a lease for 42 years, renewal for 21.
[DOT] (12:30 p.m.)


Arthur Laing: Excuse me, but in the first instance it was 42 years. Then it was changed to 42 plus 21.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Exactly; that is what I am saying. The problem came to my attention. When I was minister we changed the policy so there would be no mistake and said 42 plus 21, after which the situation would be reviewed. I think this was a more successful approach than the minister's confiscatory policy at the moment. We introduced policies that would control the future use and development of national parks and at the same time preserve the rights of the residents of Banff and Jasper who, after all, are living in permanent townsites.
We asked in the committee that this matter be referred to the courts by the government. The request was refused, and as a result the residents themselves are taking the matter to court at their own expense. This action indicates that the government has been highhanded, arbitrary and bureaucratic in these matters. The residents of the park are going to be represented by a Liberal lawyer I guess I should give him a large "L". He is Mr. George Steer of Edmonton, who as a member of the Liberal party has uttered some strong words against the un-Liberal tendencies represented by this particular action. I merely wanted to refer to that so we may remove the misunderstandings that have been created by statements such as the minister made in asking me a question a moment ago. I am glad he gave me an opportunity to clarify the record.


Arthur Laing: No, I should like to clarify the record by saying the hon. member introduced a measure by order in council at one time and found the pressure so great he retreated. We have come to the point now, with the increase in use of the parks, that I cannot afford to retreat. If he were in my position he could not either.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Let me repeat, because apparently the minister did not hear me; I was
June 9. 1967

not the minister in 1959. Actually it was 1958 when the moratorium was declared on future leaseholds in western national parks. My responsibility began in the fall of 1960. We came to the conclusion which resulted in the action to which I have just referred. But in addition there were comprehensive plans to develop national parks for the future use of all Canadians; town planning; town managers; regional officers, and the zoning principle was established to prevent any further intrusion on the wilderness areas of these beautiful mountain parks. This applies also to the prairie parts.
Park planners were brought in to thoroughly examine each of the western parks beginning with Banff and Jasper, then going on to Prince Albert and Riding Mountain so a master plan could be developed to bring park policy into conformity with the needs that are so obvious in these days. A program of new national park development should have gone ahead on a crisis basis. As I have already noted, there have been no further developments in this regard. Certainly a recreational park program should have been launched long before this by the federal government. I hear announcements from time to time that there will be such a program, but the longer the delay the more critical the problem becomes. I merely take the opportunity of saying at this time that I hope the government will come forward with something positive in the way of a program rather than repeated propaganda statements that something is just around the corner.
I should like to refer in passing to the historic parks. A program of historic park development was launched which was supposed to tie in with centennial year. There has not been too much activity in this regard in recent years. One of the two major examples is the fortress of Louisbourg, the restoration of which is proceeding. This is a substantial historic site restoration involving originally some $9 million. I do not know what the figure is now. It is designed as a living museum of Canadian history. I hope it is the forerunner of similar developments in other parts of Canada. Fort Garry in Winnipeg is designed in the same direction. I do not know where its development stands. Dawson city in the Yukon Territory was declared a historic site in 1961, and that program was bitterly attacked by my friends in the Liberal party. They tried to destroy the whole program of historic site restoration for unadulterated political reasons. There were not many votes in the Yukon Territory; therefore they
Supply-Indian Affairs thought they could attack that important part of our historic site restoration program.


Arthur Laing: We did pay the bills.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The minister is talking about the bills. About half a million dollars was spent in the restoration of the old auditorium theatre. Compare that to the expenditure that has been made on Expo this year, about which no one has complained and which has been justified in terms of the tourist dollars it is bringing into this country. The same principle operates in connection with all these things that are developed by successive governments of Canada. I point out that already the restoration of Dawson city has more than repaid any government expenditure through the influx of tourists.
This year Alaska is celebrating its 50th anniversary and is following Canada's example, stealing our thunder. They are importing the festival and spending $6 million in their effort this year.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. I must advise the hon. member the time allotted to him has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Does the hon. member wish to continue? Does the committee give unanimous consent for him to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members, for your kind consideration.
I should like to deal with one or two specific problems and my colleagues can deal with some of the details. Perhaps we can deal with them when we come to the items. The wildlife division within the department has done a very creditable job within recent years. I was impressed with the publication of a book that has just been made available to members and people interested in the subject right across Canada. It outlines the national policy for wildlife, and on page 4 of the book I find this:
A national policy for wildlife was tabled in the House of Commons on April 6, 1966. The announcement culminated a process of discussion among responsible ministers, conservationists, sportsmen, wildlife officials and others, dating back many years but highlighted by the resources for tomorrow conference in 1961.
I think the wildlife branch is one of the most efficient parts of the department. I should like to commend those who have been

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs responsible for bringing forward such a positive and forward looking national wildlife policy including the duck stamp program and the pothole preservation program. It seems so simple on the surface, yet it has already demonstrated it is playing a major role in preserving our migratory water fowl. I should like to pay tribute to the Audubon people and the National Wildlife Federation who have done an amazing job with limited funds in educating the people of Canada along the lines of conservationist philosophy. I should like to invite all hon. members of the house to become members of the association. By paying an annual fee of $5 or $6, as I recall it, they can become members and lend their support. This is the sort of assistance which makes it possible for these groups to carry on their work.
[DOT] (12:40 p.tn.)
Then there are the private conservationists in the field, such as the Jack Miner sanctuary which inspired the annual celebration of Canada's wildlife week. Another conservationist and naturalist who is becoming increasingly well known throughout Canada and the world is Mr. A1 Oeming, of the Edmonton game farm. I suppose Mr. Oeming is one of the world's outstanding naturalists. Actually he is a practical naturalist because he is conducting an experimental program demonstrating that amazing things can be done, even in a rigorous climate such as that which exists in and around the city of Edmonton, in the preservation of many of our wildlife species.
In connection with the current program under way to assist in the preservation of the whooping crane in a domestic habitat, I should like to ask the minister whether any of our Canadian wildlife authorities are involved in this experiment. A question was asked about this in the house the other day, I believe by the hon. member for Edmonton-Strathcona, but unfortunately the minister was not able to give a reply. However, I hope Canadian naturalists of the calibre of Mr. Oeming are also involved in preserving the whooping crane. It is not quite as Canadian as the Canada goose, but it does spend a good part of the season in Wood Buffalo national park. I hope we will give Canadians an opportunity to participate in this interesting conservation program.
I am going to say a few words about Indian affairs. As the minister indicated, the past record should be forgotten because it is not a very happy one. It is presented for all of us to

see if we visit the Indian pavilion at Expo, which is having a beneficial shock effect on millions of people who are visiting this tremendous exposition. However, recently I think we have more cause to be proud of ourselves; I certainly agree with the minister in this respect. I think this began in 1960 when we finally recognized that Indians were citizens and gave them the vote.
I know it is fine to be altruistic and say that the interest that has been aroused in the problems of our first Canadians has intensified in this house during recent years. I can remember, and I am sure the hon. member for Kootenay West can remember, when there was very little discussion of Indian affairs in this chamber. Now there is considerable interest. I think this is partly because Indian citizens are now voting Canadians, and we have to be concerned about their welfare whether we like it or not.
The major breakthrough has been in the field of education. I think Hon. Ellen Fair-clough during her ministry established the precedents in this regard which are now bearing fruit. She was one of the first ministers to visit almost every reservation across Canada, and her program of integrating Indian children into the regular community schools has had wonderfully beneficial effects.
I should like to inform hon. members-I am sure the hon. member for Portage-Neepawa would do so were he here-that there will be an excellent Indian high school choir singing at Expo in July, though I do not know the specific dates. I think this choir is the only one of its kind in Canada, and consists of high school youngsters from the Portage la Prairie school. I have heard them sing and they do an excellent job. I would say they would compare favourably with choirs of many other ethnic groups in Canada, and I trust they too will have an opportunity to perform on parliament hill.
I do not want to trespass further on the time of the committee at this stage other than to say, in summing up these remarks, that as in the case with parks, where up to the present time only pronouncements have been made, the same might be said about northern affairs generally. I heartily agree with the minister of northern development when he talks about the tremendous upsurge in the north; the Registrar General nodded across to me and said "You agree with that, of course". Certainly I agree with it, because it was a policy and a program that was born in spite of the resistance of our friends of the Liberal party who voted against the Pine Point railway and
June 9, 1967

were generally critical of what they derisively called the vision of northern development.
Now of course, Mr. Chairman, everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Though we heartily agree with it, the trouble is that there have been no new initiatives in recent years. I know hon. members opposite talk about road programs, but this is a regurgitation of the old program. They talk about educational programs. The educational program was set up so that by 1967 every young Canadian living north of 60 would have the opportunity to obtain an education. This program was laid down years ago. I do not know whether the target has been achieved in 1967.
I also point out that the mines which are now going into production are the result of programs and policies which are coming to an end. We must have new initiatives, a new vision-if I might use that word that was derided so vigorously, even violently and viciously, by my hon. friends of the Liberal party-otherwise, Mr. Chairman, we will have a vacuum. Some of my colleagues will say more in this respect during the course of the debate today.
Centennial year and Expo are occupying the minds of Canadians everywhere. We are all enthusiastically supporting these projects. Let us get some positive programs from the government rather than propaganda statements, so the vacuum that will inevitably be created after Expo and the centennial celebrations are over will be filled by new upsurge of development north of 60.


Richard Russell Southam: Mr. Chairman, I welcome this opportunity to make a few remarks in this debate on the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I want to thank the minister for his comprehensive review of some of the problems facing his department. I should also like to compliment the former minister of northern affairs, the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, who has just taken his seat and who has also given a more than comprehensive review of some of the problems that we must face up to.
I have had the honour of being a member of the committee on Indian affairs and northern development and its predecessor for several years, and I agree with the minister that his is a very important department. It also has its problems. It is a department that creates a certain amount of controversy, particularly over its activities relating to Indian affairs. The department has been creating
Supply-Indian Affairs problems both for committees and for parliament over the years, and as the minister says will continue to do so for several generations yet.
e (12:50 p.m.)
Not many in Canada are familiar with the great northern part of this country. I, with other members of the committee, was fortunate last year in having the privilege of flying into the Canadian northland and being able to survey about 40 per cent of Canada's land mass, and in being able to have a first hand look at the problems facing the citizens of the area-and I am thinking of the Eskimos, Indians and whites. The members of the committee agreed generally about what needed to be done. What we saw was a revelation, and ever since I and my colleagues on the committee have discussed generally the developments that should take place in the north.
After all, Canada is a country of pioneers; we still have the pioneering spirit, and the last frontier of this country is in the north. I was glad the minister admitted the importance of the roads to resources and the communications that the hon. member for Brandon-Souris referred to. Our party between 1957 and 1962 developed the roads to resources. The minister also referred to the Pine Point railway and the development at the end of that line that we had the privilege of seeing last year.
At the beginning of his remarks the minister referred to the national parks policy. As members of the committee know, I have been directly and intimately interested in this policy because my riding of Moose Mountain is in the centre of one of the most progressive and highly patronized provincial parks of Saskatchewan. It has been said that in Saskatchewan we live by bread alone, though in recent years with the development of our oil and potash resources the economy of our province has been revitalized. Another national park would give our people added incentive and another boost up the economic ladder.
I was glad to hear the minister say that the committee in that province has co-operated well with the national parks officials of Ottawa in the development of a second national park for our province. I do not know what the criteria will be for the establishment of the park, but for a long time I have advocated that the Moose Mountain area be considered seriously, for several reasons. Basically the area has become popular because of the

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs provincial park, and a second reason for establishing a national park there is that such a park would be close to the United States and would have many visitors from there. The people of the southern part of the province and those in the adjacent areas of Montana, Minnesota and North Dakota would have access to the water and woods in our area. The national park at Waskesiu is well patronized, yet I do not think we are selfish in asking the federal government to develop a second national park for our area. After all, Alberta has five national parks. When the government announced that it planned to create a second national park in my province, or in our area of the country, I immediately rose in the house and asked that my area of Saskatchewan be considered for the reasons I have outlined.
I hope this park will not take too long to develop. It will enhance the economy of our great province. I realize that the government faces many problems, but I hope my remarks will be considered.
Another problem facing our government is how to bring about developments that will help establish our Indian people in our society so they may live happily and progress with the rest of us in this great land. The problems have been magnified during recent years because of the rapid increase in our standard of living. When Indians see the living standards of the rest of us rising it is quite natural for them to be discontented. We must do everything possible to develop Indian housing facilities and education and to assist them to establish themselves in various walks of life according to their aptitudes. The vocational and technical training program which was developed by the former minister of labour went a long way toward giving these people an opportunity to enhance their education in vocational schools so they might take their place in our society. As the minister says, it will take several generations to solve the problems of our Indians, but with the cooperation of members of parliament and Indian leaders the problem can ultimately be resolved.
A similar problem exists among the Eskimos of the north, at whom our parliamentary committee took a first hand look. The Eskimos themselves are co-operating well in adapting themselves to our educational and economic system, but more effort will be needed to solve their problems, and the northern affairs administration will have to make that effort.

I am glad that the capital of the Northwest Territories has finally been established. That will create new incentives for the people of the north to co-operate with the federal government in the development of their area. Health services and communications are important for those people. The committee listened at great length to witnesses appearing before it. What it heard emphasized the need for further educational facilities in the primary, secondary and adult field for that part of the country. Also needed are greater radio and television communication facilities. I was pleased to hear the minister announce this morning that there is to be what is known as a package deal for television to provide communication with the rest of the world for the people of the north. If the people up there know what is going on in the rest of the world they will have an incentive to better their own standards of living.
I should have liked to speak at greater length, but I must board an aircraft this afternoon and fly away to perform a pleasant duty in my area. I am to present a centenary certificate to a grand old lady, who is 103 years of age. I am glad to have the opportunity of giving her the certificate. I look forward to reading what other members of the committee may contribute in the debate that will take place this afternoon.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the hon. member kindly give the old lady the congratulations of all members of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order, please. It being one o'clock, pursuant to standing order 6(3) this sitting is suspended until two thirty o'clock.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. House again in committee of supply. Indian Affairs and Northern Development.


Mr. Barnett:: Mr. Chairman, in introducing his estimates the minister indicated that he felt the portfolio he holds to be an exciting and challenging one. With this appraisal I am sure any hon. member who has an idea of the extent of the hon. gentleman's responsibilities will agree. It could be argued that any one of
June 9, 1967

his major areas of responsibility could in itself provide a stimulating enough challenge and one to which the minister might well devote his whole time.
I got the impression from minister's remarks that when he was asked to become superintendent general of Indian affairs he experienced a sinking feeling. This I can well understand because the decisions to be taken as superintendent general touch deeply and intimately the lives of more than 200,000 residents of this country. His position is in many ways unique and without parallel in Canada.
Indeed, his responsibilities in this area might be compared in certain respects, though not all, with those undertaken in trying to solve the problem of the Arab refugees in the Gaza strip, and I say this having listened to some of the discussions which have taken place here in recent days. I will not press this comparison too far, but one might argue that there is a certain relationship inasmuch as the lives of individual human beings are directly involved in each case.
I realize one cannot hope in a single effort to deal in depth with all the matters which were raised by the minister in his speech to the committee. So far as the operations of the Indian affairs branch are concerned I think it would be advisable to discuss them under item 5 where we can go into the subject more thoroughly. I hope to do so if I find some time on my hands.
[DOT] (2:40 p.m.)
The minister spent the major portion of his remarks dealing with national parks and the ever-increasing need for wilderness and recreational areas. At the outset I should like to say that many members of this house have been devoting a considerable amount of their time and attention to the whole question of parks. To the best of my knowledge the members of the committee on northern affairs and national resources, and I think probably all hon. members who have given the matter any thought at all, will agree with the minister when he says that as we look ahead we recognize that with our growing population and with the growing number of visitors to our country there is a need for various forms of recreational areas and that this need will increase by leaps and bounds. When the minister suggested that we should now be looking forward 10, 20 or 30 years into the future in respect of these needs, I think he was perhaps being quite conservative in that connection. I would be inclined to say that we should be looking forward 100 or 200 years while we
Supply-Indian Affairs still have, as we all know, great areas of open space in our country.
Small though our population is we recognize that with the encroachments which can be made through the use of modern technology many inroads are being made at a terrific pace into what until quite recently was completely virgin wilderness. I think of this when I have the opportunity to visit my community where I see what has happened during the last 20 or 25 years to the whole area of Vancouver Island which is part of the constituency of Comox-Alberni. When I see the vast inroads that have been made by the forestry and pulp and paper industry, by means of the modern techniques at their disposal, into an area which until a few years ago was completely virgin territory I appreciate what has happened.
In a discussion we had in the house yesterday I believe reference was made by the hon. member for the Northwest Territories to the fact that one could see the results of seismic surveys stretching through great areas of that part of Canada. This again is visible evidence of how quickly and vastly the inroads of man can alter the wilderness in a very short time.
I believe one of the difficulties at the present time with regard to parks and wilderness areas is that we use the word "park" to encompass such a wide variety of areas. In the term we include everything from a small plot with maybe two or three trees on it in the middle of a town or city to such areas as the great Rocky Mountain wilderness park or Wood Buffalo park in the northern area of Alberta.
I must say I was pleased that when the committee on northern affairs and national resources presented its report to this house at the last session it laid emphasis on the need for recognition that the national parks system is only a segment of the total requirement for recreational and park areas in this country. I think this is a point of view which the minister has enunciated a good many times. I am glad that increasingly reference is being made at the various levels of government to the fact that it is recognized that there must be a joint effort on the part of all levels of government to meet the future recreational needs of the people of Canada and their visitors.
On the question of the desirability of acquiring new national parks in various parts of the country I should like to say that I share completely the views the minister has expressed today and on many other occasions. With particular reference to the province

already been touched upon this morning by the hon. member for Brandon-Souris and the minister in his question to that hon. member. Let me say immediately that I am not particularly concerned at this time about who did what and when so far as the present and previous administrations are concerned. What we should attempt to do at this time is take a fair and square look at the present situation and then move on to determine what can and should be done in the future.
As a member of that committee I listened to the briefs presented and, as members of the committee will know, when we got back to Ottawa more meetings were arranged in order to provide an opportunity to hear from the minister and certain of his officials in relation to what had been presented by the residents of Banff and Jasper.
After those meetings, when the committee was approaching the time of drafting a report and not until then, having heard what I feel was a full range of expression of views on this whole subject our chairman suggested that we ought to put down in writing some proposals as to what might be contained in the report. Following that suggestion I attempted to do just that. It was obvious from our discussions that there were certain limited areas of differences of opinion, and the proposals that I considered for the consideration of the committee did not touch upon those subject matters in respect of which I felt there was a consensus. I simply tried to work out, to the best of my ability from the facts as I had heard them, some proposals regarding what undoubtedly are very difficult and complicated questions.
At this time I should like to take the opportunity of putting before this committee the proposals I submitted to the other committee. They did not meet with the general approval of that committee and therefore are not part of the committee's report. I shall present them pretty much in the form in which I placed them before that committee. 1 intend to do so in order that anyone who wants to take the trouble of reading them in the context of the committee's report will understand why I have dealt with these particular topics. These are the proposals I presented:
The committee recognizes the townsites of Banff and Jasper are, in certain respects, anomalies within the national parks system. No like developments should be allowed to take place in the future, either in the Rocky Mountain parks or elsewhere.
The committee suggests their existence as permanent communities be accepted; that given the [DOT]size of the parks within which they have developed,
Supply-Indian Affairs the fact they are on the main trans-Canada transportation arteries, and their distance from other centres of population, these communities are and can continue to be an asset rather than a liability to the parks.
The committee approves the general ground rules which have been put into effect to limit their size both as to geographic area and population, and commends the department for its attempts to inaugurate town planning and redevelopment.
The committee suggests that parliament and the government cannot ignore the history of these communities. Their existence in their present form is largely the result of actions taken by previous parliaments and governments, both before and after the establishment of Banff and Jasper parks.
While current and future residential and commercial leasing policies may properly be regarded as matters of administrative responsibility, subject only to normal parliamentary scrutiny and debate, your committee is concerned that no injustice be done residents established in the parks under terms sanctioned by previous parliaments. This concern has reference in particular to the so-called perpetual leases. Your committee is of the view that, without prejudice to any constitutional or legal position, the government should give favourable consideration to the introduction of special legislation to deal with this matter in terms which will make certain that no hardship or disadvantage accrues to persons who in good faith have taken action based on commitments given by governments in times past. Your committee has concluded that such action is a necessary prelude to implementation of policies currently required for preservation and development of the Rocky Mountain national parks.
[DOT] (3:00 p.m.)
Having accepted the proposition that Banff and Jasper are permanent communities within the parks, presently and in the future unique in certain respects, your committee is concerned with the future of these towns as functioning entities, and with the opportunities for exercising civic rights and responsibilities which will be available to the Canadian citizens living in them. Your committee recognizes the main economic base of these relatively small communities is and will remain the provision of services to a large and fluctuating transient visitor population, with the servicing of railway operation a lesser but, particularly in Jasper, important activity.
Proposals for dealing with the situation outlined above have run, on the one hand, from the extreme of geographic extraction of Banff and Jasper from the parks and through "corridor" links placing them under normal provincial jurisdiction to, on the other, operating them in perpetuity under the direct "colonial" jurisdiction of a ministry of the federal government, administered through a townsite manager. Your committee rejects both such extremes. It is of the opinion that the first is financially impracticable, and incompatible with the successful maintenance of the national parks trust in the two parks concerned. It is of the opinion that the second is incompatible with the exercise of civic rights and responsibilities which residents of any Canadian community should enjoy.
Your committee therefore recommends that the government give favourable consideration to the introduction of legislation incorporating Banff and Jasper as towns under special federal charter.

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs
Your committee recognizes that such charters must be drawn in terms which will ensure that no powers exercisable by the corporations will interfere, either within or without their boundaries, with the proper management of the parks; further that the terms of the charters must provide a careful delineation of financial powers and responsibilities as between the federal government and the corporations, having due regard to retention by the crown in right of Canada of ownership of all land within the national parks.
Your committee suggests that, among other provisions, a proper balance of powers under the charters might be achieved through a council with a mayor appointed by the minister and a council elected by and from the duly qualified residents of the town.
Your committee further suggests the chartering legislation provide that subject to the terms of agreements made between the federal government and the government of the province of Alberta, the corporations be authorized to enter into arrangements with appropriate departments or agencies of the provincial government in respect to services normally provided to municipalities incorporated under the laws of the province.
The minister earlier asked the hon. member for Brandon-Souris whether he thought perpetual leases should be allowed to continue forever, which was the word used in the committee. I want to state my view quite clearly. I do not believe that these perpetual leases should be allowed to continue forever. I am not learned in the law, but it appears to me that the way in which some of these leases were drafted comes pretty close to being the equivalent of title in fee simple as we ordinarily understand it in other parts of the country outside of park boundaries.
I believe that the national parks trust is such that the lands within the national parks of Canada should be those of all the people of this country. But the fact remains that these actions were taken in the past. The fact remains that because of the way in which these leases were worded, as far as I can understand after listening to the pros and cons put forward with regard to them, some of the people who acquired leases in earlier days, at least before the moratorium imposed in 1958, held leases that were in effect perpetual. Because of the terms of these leases they believed they had the right to expect their automatic renewal forever, subject to certain conditions required by the department from time to time.
Notwithstanding any question of the legal or constitutional position of these leases, I think this parliament should deal with the question as a matter of equity and the normal citizenship rights of the people of this country. We have heard it argued that people

have capitalized on the inflated value of these leases, and this may very well be true. When the committee made its report to the house it in effect told these people that if they wanted to question the actions of the department they could take the matter to the Supreme Court on their own initiative. I do not think this was a proper position for a parliamentary committee to take.
When we went to Banff and J asper I had the feeling that the people there thought the committee was the highest court in the land coming to hear their case. I believe those people had the right to expect more from the committee than a complete brush-off of the representations which they as Canadian citizens made to us. I think the least that could be done, bearing in mind all I have listened to about the past history of this matter, is that a proposal be placed before parliament which would have the result of settling this problem in an equitable manner. If I may say so as an aside, I think it would be very sound politics for the government to place a proposal before parliament which would deal with the matter in an equitable manner and not as one of legality or constitutionality.
I am not a lawyer nor am I a financial expert, but as I understand the terms of these leases these people have an entitlement to what I would term, for want of a better phrase, some kind of severance allowance, if we are to terminate the practice initiated in the past. How this matter should be dealt with is, I freely admit, a very complex and complicated question. I have heard the argument advanced that the appreciation of these leases has been as a result of the expenditure of public moneys in the parks. The leases have undoubtedly appreciated because of that fact. I think parliament should look into this question and consider its responsibility as between what is admittedly a small group of Canadian citizens and the citizens of Canada generally.
If we were to consider taking action along these lines it might very well be said: In order that no one who has been in the parks will be able to exploit their position, let us determine what is the average increment across Canada from coast to coast in respect of land values. Let us compare these values with those of lands which have been held under perpetual leases and let us work out a formula which will provide that these people will be neither better nor worse off than would be a citizen of Canada who is in
June 9, 1987

possession of property representing the average appreciation of land values in the country.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Richard):: Order. I regret to advise the hon. member that his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Chairman, some hon. members have suggested that I carry on. However, I believe I have made my point on this matter. As I have said, I will have an opportunity to deal with other aspects of the minister's department as we proceed with the consideration of these estimates.
[DOT] (3:10 p.m.)


Gérard Laprise: Mr. Chairman, I wish to take advantage of the study of the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to call the attention of the minister to a matter which concerns Indian affairs in particular.
At the outset of his remarks this morning, the minister told us that the government entrusted him with the responsibility of Indian affairs about a year ago. In view of the changes being effected by that department in the area that I represent and where I live, I feel that the minister should also answer to the house for the activities of his departmental officials.
The minister advised me recently in writing of the official decision to transfer the Indian affairs office from Amos to Val d'Or. I had been aware for several weeks that the department of Indian affairs wanted this transfer and I was also aware, having been involved personally, that steps were taken on both sides. I was involved in the steps taken by the authorities and by the public bodies of Amos to keep this office in Amos where it has been for more than 25 years. I wondered why this transfer was being made from one city to another in this northwestern region. After analysing all reasons that were given to me and to the representative of the town of Amos, I concluded that it was more a question of accommodating the civil servants than giving the Indians the service the department is required to give them.
On February 8, I received from the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Laing) a letter giving the reasons supplied by his officials to ask for such transfer. Here is what he said, and I quote:
It has been suggested that the main office of a new division which will serve the whole northwestern part of the province, be set up at Val d'Or.
Supply-Indian Affairs
I would like to know who made that suggestion. The minister does not say who did in his letter; he merely says, "It has been suggested". I would therefore like to know who made the suggestion, whether it was the Indians themselves, the leaders of the Indian bands in the area or officials who, for some reason I do not know exactly, prefer living in one city rather than in the other.
The minister also pointed out to me that, according to his officials' reports, and I quote:
Val d'Or has an airport which gives regular service towards Poste-de-la-Baleine and other points, and I understand that that was one of the factors which the branch officials took into consideration.
On January 24, 1967, the clerk of the town of Amos, on behalf of the municipal corporation of Amos, sent a letter to the assistant deputy minister of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in which he said in part:
The town of Amos has now almost completed the municipal airport started a few years ago and air traffic could begin as early as next summer-
Meaning this summer.
-since the landing-ground itself is more than sufficient.
Mr. Chairman, as far as the airport is concerned, I think the problem can be solved shortly and I know that representations are being made by the authorities of the town of Amos with the Department of Transport for the completion of that airport.
So, I continue reading the reasons given by the minister in his letter of February 8:
Moreover, Val d'Or is more central since it is linked by road with Maniwaki and Notre-Dame-du-Nord.
With Maniwaki, right, but it is not quite the same thing as far as Notre-Dame-du-Nord is concerned because to get there

if my information is correct; I live in the area-one must pass by Rouyn, and from Rouyn, the distance to Amos or Val d'Or is about the same. Therefore, only the Maniwaki area would have the distance advantage. On the other hand, the Matagami and La Sarre areas and others to the north would be at a disadvantage, because their residents would have to travel farther to go to the Val d'Or office, whenever the need arises. The letter goes on to say:
The need to expand the office so that it may serve as a regional office is not, it seems, an important aspect of the question, for this need could be met in both places.

June 9, 1S67
Supply-Indian Affairs
That is true, tor a letter was sent to an official of the department living in Rouyn to tell him that there were unoccupied buildings in the town of Amos which were large enough to house these offices, and that if these buildings did not meet the needs of the department, a number of Amos businessmen would undertake to build others within a short time.
I continue to quote the minister's letter:
However, I am told that it could more easily be done in Val d'Or.
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
Therefore, do not think it is easier to put up public buildings in Val d'Or than in Amos. Sometimes, it is building contractors from Amos who erect buildings in Val d'Or.
I continue:
As far as living accommodation for the staff is concerned, Val d'Or, being a larger town, has more facilities; that is one thing which should be taken into consideration, because staff recruitment can be hindered at times because of a lack of accommodation for rent at reasonable prices.
Here is what the tour clerk of Amos wrote to the deputy minister on January 24:
The matter has been referred to the municipal authorities which intend to facilitate access to appropriate housing to employees of your department; at any rate, several large projects are anticipated for the spring. The town of Amos is developing rapidly and will certainly be able to provide accommodation immediately, and even better this summer, for all additional employees your department may need in Amos.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I think that meets the requirements of the Indian affairs branch as far as offices and housing for the staff in that city are concerned.
In his letter to me, the minister said:
The proposed district will include Indian people of different languages and religious faiths. To meet their needs and to provide them with our services in the most acceptable manner, it can be expected that some members of the staff of the proposed district office will also be of different origins and request, for themselves and their families, schools and churches which exist in Val d'Or but not in Amos.
Mr. Chairman, there again, I feel that as far as education and religious services are concerned, the city of Amos can meet the needs of any nationality just as well as any other city in northwestern Quebec. As a matter of fact, in his letter of January 24 which I quoted earlier, the Amos city clerk mentioned this with regard to schools:
The city has several primary and secondary schools and is also the headquarters of the Harri-cana regional school board which controls the whole secondary educational system in the area. Amos

also has an Institute of Higher Studies, soon to be certified by the provincial government, which prepares students to enter university.
The Indian population of Amos is already integrated in the city of Amos and its religious and cultural institutions, and every day, young Indians can be seen fraternizing with the white population of the city. We submit that the educational experiment of the Indian affairs branch in Amos has been very successful and that the prevailing educational climate in Amos is unique in northwestern Quebec.
Eventually, the city of Amos will be in a position to accommodate all the Indian students from the north of the province and provide English classes for them, since several requests have already been made by English-speaking families who wish to settle in Amos and are only waiting for the establishment of English schools to do so.
Mr. Chairman, now that could meet the requirements mentioned by the department officials to justify transferring the office?
In the light of the reasons given by those officials and the services which are planned at Amos, as well as at Val d'Or and everywhere else, I have come to the conclusion that it is not so much that the Indians want to settle in Amos but rather that civil servants want to ensure their own well-being instead of wanting to serve the Indians who come under the jurisdiction of the department.
Last summer I accompanied the committee on northern affairs and national resources on a tour of northern Canada, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, and I found that in those places too there are civil servants who do not seem to understand why they are there.
Of all places we visited, I noticed that the community where this situation was most obvious was the town of Fort Smith where, it seemed to me, nobody cared about Indians or Indian affairs.
I also noticed that civil servants, in that town especially, were mainly concerned with their own welfare. They are helping Indians to ensure their comfort, but as far as their education or their care is concerned, they almost completely forget about them, to the extent that when we held meetings at Fort Smith, all the Indians and Eskimos who must live in that area, I imagine, were absent, except a half-breed I think.
All that to say, Mr. Chairman, that reforms would probably be needed within the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to ensure proper administration of Indian affairs.
Those are, Mr. Chairman, the comments I wanted to address to the minister this afternoon. I would also ask him once again who requested that transfer of office from Amos to
June 9, 1967

Val d'Or. Could he tell us, at the same time, whether the Indians, individually or through their chiefs, have asked for that transfer or whether they have been consulted? In the latter case, how was it done and what was their reply? It would be interesting to know the answers to those questions.


Mr. Orange:: I should like to begin my remarks, Mr. Chairman, by thanking the minister for his statement at the commencement of this discussion. He touched on three major areas of his department, national parks, Indian affairs and northern administration. In the few minutes allotted to him, as he stated, he was unable to deal with these subjects in the depth he would have liked. In my view the remarks he made regarding resource development in the Northwest Territories were amongst the most significant.
However, for the moment I should like to talk about Indian affairs. Earlier this week I had the opportunity of visiting the Canadian Indian pavilion at Expo '67. This pavilion, which was sponsored by the minister's department, was designed and developed by the Indian people themselves. I believe every Canadian who visits Expo should take the hour necessary to visit it. It tells completely the story of the Indian people and their association with the white man from the time the white man first came to this continent. The department provided the funds for the construction of the pavilion but told the Indian people, this is your pavilion and you tell us what you think it should be like.
I believe the most significant thing about the pavilion is the story it tells and the indication of a change in attitude toward the administration of Indian affairs because the government said, "We want you to do it." The story told is not necessarily a happy one. When you walk into the building you feel the bewilderment that the Indian people must have felt when they first encountered the white man on this continent. Then there is an indication of some semblance of hope that they could live with the white man. As the white man expanded westward there was a feeilng of despair and frustration, and finally hate. We see the effect of the white man's institutions on the Indian people and their culture.
However, as you walk out you see the story of what is happening in terms of Indian education today. As you leave you feel that the Indian people believe this may be a time of change and the white man and his red-skin
Supply-Indian Affairs brother may be able to live together on this continent. I was rather impressed upon reading some of the inscriptions on the walls of the building. In the early days the Indian people said:
We paid honour to the spirits in all living things by wasting nothing.
This is so symbolic of the culture of the Indian people. On the other hand, there were some words that were rather harsh and bitter, not the least of which were these:
Well into the twentieth century the welfare of the Indian was regarded as proper work for retired soldiers, many of whom were kindly and well intentioned but treated their charges like amiable,' backward children.
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
I hope that this pavilion and the story it tells are an indication of a change of attitude, a change in approach on the part of individuals generally with respect to their relationship toward the Indian people. In this respect I should like to draw the attention of the committee for a moment treaties Nos. 8 and II which affect the Indians of the Northwest Territories, northern British Columbia, northern Alberta and northern Saskatchewan. These treaties were signed in the 1920's. Certain agreements were made between the Indian people and the Queen, including the disposition of certain lands to the Indian people. To this day these treaties have never been fulfilled in that the Indian people, who incidentally do not want to live on reserves in these areas, have never received compensation in lieu of the lands they were to receive.
At Inuvik last week I spoke with Mr. James Koe, a member of the Indian advisory committee, about treaties 8 and 11. Mr. Koe expressed to me a feeling of incredible confusion, distrust and lack of understanding regarding the position of the Indians with respect to these treaties. The treaties themselves were obviously written in a hurry by meandering bands of well intentioned civil servants who were sent to negotiate some form of arrangement with the Indian people.


John George Diefenbaker: What year were the treaties signed?


Robert John (Bud) Orange: The treaties were signed in 1921. An example of the kind of confusion is that one of the terms in treaty 11 is the provision of $3 worth of shells, nets and other paraphernalia needed for the Indian way of life. In 1921 this amount may have been significant. Today the Indian people are still receiving $3 worth but instead of five or six

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs boxes of shells and one or two fish nets they receive perhaps one box of shells and one fish net for every second family. I am hopeful that the department and the minister will resolve to treat the problems facing our northern Indian people as urgent and will discuss with them the provisions contained in treaties 8 and 11, which to date has not been done.
When I had the opportunity of saying a few words in the debate on the speech from the throne I touched on a subject which I believe is of great importance in the development of the country to the north. I refer to the provision of basic services to the communities there. I spoke at great length about the extension of adequate water and sewer services to the community of Inuvik. I must congratulate the minister and his department in that within three or four days of my speech they were able to announce the start of an experimental system at Inuvik. I know this was not necessarily as a result of the few remarks I made because I understand that action was under way prior to the debate in the house. However, I think this is an important matter which must be faced by the government of Canada together with the governments in the territories, both territorial and municipal.
In the process of transferring responsibility from the federal government to the territorial government I would like to see arrangements made whereby the senior government would take upon itself responsibility for initiating and establishing an adequate water supply, sewage disposal, electricity and basic housing in all northern communities. This is an opportunity for the federal government to show the seriousness with which it intends to develop and is developing the north. It seems to me that this would be a logical, reasonable and practical step.
In the process of opening up northern Canada communications and transportation are two of the obvious factors of great importance. The minister made reference this morning to the fact that within the last several weeks two air lines commenced operating jet equipment to the Arctic coast. This is true and it is a good thing. It is an example of the initiative that can be taken in the north by the private operator or entrepreneur.
However, Mr. Chairman, one of the difficulties with which we are faced is the development of adequate facilities. In many parts of northern Canada and the northern part of many provinces there are periods of the year when communities are completely cut off

from the outside. These periods vary from three to six to nine weeks, at break up and again at freeze-up. Apart from the obvious dangers that could arise as a result of epidemics, the over-all growth and development of these areas is greatly affected.
Yesterday I received a telephone call from a community in Keewatin called Eskimo Point. The object of the call was to see whether somehow or other the backlog of mail which apparently exists in Churchill could be moved out very quickly as the break-up was expected in two or three days. Fortunately the post office was one step ahead of us and there was no need to follow up this matter. But the point is that sometimes those in the south forget that a community of 200, 300 or 400 people can be completely cut off from the outside for a period of time.
The point I am trying to make is that there is urgent need for the development of adequate air strips in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, as well as in other areas of Canada which at times are isolated and cut off from the rest of the country. I know the minister has proposed an air strip program which would bring year round transportation facilities to every community for which he is responsible. I know that this program has had some rough sledding at the hands of members of the Treasury Board. However, I should like to add my words of support in the strongest way for this program, with the hope that the minister will be able to convince his cabinet colleagues that the only way we will develop this great northern country of our is to provide adequate transportation and communication services to meet the growing needs.
Within the past several months it was announced that Yellowknife had been selected as the capital of the Northwest Territories. It was also announced that the commissioner of the Northwest Territories would move to the capital of Yellowknife. We are all anxiously looking forward to seeing the legislation brought before the house to bring about the development of responsible government in the Northwest Territories.
A few days ago I said I hoped that the legislation would be in line with the views of the people who live in these territories so that it will be passed readily by the house. There will be a certain amount of discussion of what the government is proposing and I suggest to the minister that there are three areas which he might want to consider before such legislation is brought before the house.
June 9, 1967

[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
The first matter is the relationship between the commissioner of the Northwest Territories and the minister. If I might explain under the present legislation the commissioner is responsible to the minister and at the same time he is the head of a partly elected and partly appointed council. As such he is in the rather awkward position of having to keep the minister happy and having to keep the elected representatives happy. He serves two masters, which is awkward. I have no patent solution to the problem and I do not intend to bring one forward today, but I ask the minister to keep in mind what I have said when bringing down his proposals.
The second matter that the minister ought to consider is the amount of indemnity that is to be paid to members of the territorial council. Approximately one year ago we enacted legislation which raised the salaries of the elected members of the council from $2,000 to $5,000 a year. We also agreed to pay $3,500 a year to the appointed members. At that time it was said that these changes were housekeeping amendments. If we expect the elected representatives to bear responsibility in the territorial government I do not think it should be up to this house to set their salaries. We should not say what the elected representatives are to be paid. I sincerely and firmly believe that if the members of the council decide to raise their own salaries beyond what is reasonable they will receive their answer from the electorate. The next time round they may be looking for a new job.
The third point that I hope the minister will take into account when he brings in this legislation has to do with the appointed members of the council. I know there are compelling arguments for having appointed members for the time being on the Northwest Territories council to represent the views of all Canadians, because the federal government itself has a great interest in the north. But what the government seeks to achieve can be achieved as effectively, or possibly more so, by establishing a series of advisory groups or committees which would report to the commissioner with respect to those areas on which the appointed members now report. I suggest that the minister consider my proposals so that when the legislation is brought forward all aspects of it can be examined in a non-partisan manner. This would be in the best interests of the two territories in the northern part of Canada.
Supply-Indian Affairs
I was interested in the reactions of many hon. members who have already spoken on parks. They said nothing new, having repeated their ideas on many occasions and in various committee meetings. The one area I wish to bring to the minister's attention is the Wood Buffalo national park. We have heard the minister acknowledge that if, somehow or other, the federal government and the province of Alberta could get together arrangements might be worked out whereby certain areas of the park would be transferred to the province and be administered by it. These areas include the so-called gypsum deposit which along the Peace river and the timber stands in the same area. The northeastern corner of Alberta, as a result of the tar sands development, has become a centre of new economic activity and resource development. When these arrangements I have spoken of are worked out between the federal and provincial governments I expect that the economic activity will extend virtually to the border of the Northwest Territories.
My point is that there has been much talking about this subject. I do not know at what level that talking has taken place but the newspapers have had much to say about the matter. I do know that it is important to resolve the discussions between the two levels of government as quickly as possible. There seems to be a tendency for each of the governments concerned to say: "Well, if you will come to us with a proposal we will be prepared to listen to you without making any commitment." I am not skilled in the arts of diplomacy and negotiation but I am sure that somehow or other arrangements could be worked out to bring about an agreement to transfer part of Wood Buffalo national park to the Alberta government.
In this our centennial year all Canadians should take great pride in what is happening in the Northwest Territories and in the Yukon Territory. I listened this morning to the remarks of the former minister of this department and to his biased platitudes about what he and his government had done when they were in office. We acknowledge that there was an impetus to do what they did. We also acknowledge that the roads program, for example, in the north was an extension of plans which were already on the drawing board. We are aware that in the years 1962 and 1963, when an austerity program was implemented, that the unfortunate area to be hit first and hardest was northern Canada. Millions of dollars for the construction of roads and schools

June 9. 1987
Supply-Indian Affairs disappeared from the estimates. Only in the last two or three years have programs to achieve what should have been achieved come back on the rails. These programs have been added to the new programs.
Be that as it may, I am hopeful that we have started on a course which will develop the great natural resources of the north. We hope that any such program will involve the people of the north in the development of their natural resources. Mr. Chairman, the greatest asset that we have in northern Canada is our people.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)


Mr. Alkenbrack:: Mr. Chairman, as a member of the committee on northern affairs and national resources in the last session of parliament I feel compelled to offer a few remarks at this time. Having been a member of the expedition composed of committee members, the deputy minister and officials of the northern affairs department which toured the Northwest Territories and the Yukon from July 28 to August 8 last, I believe that as a result of this tour we now take more interest in these territories, their peoples and in their administration than we did previously. We feel closer to these people.
I had never been in the Arctic before. I marvelled at the magnitude of that land, its emptiness, the bleak loneliness of the north. I also learned to appreciate the unique beauty of the hardy life which, none the less, does flourish there. In a 15-minute walk across the tundra just outside the village of Frobisher Bay I picked ten different kinds of beautiful wild flowers unknown to the rest of Canada. I also noted during that walk that the white man is defiling the north. We left our bus along the road to take pictures of a beautiful bed of wild flowers outside the village of Frobisher Bay and we found proof that the white man is littering the north as he is littering the south. I had to pick up a couple of empty beer bottles from that flower bed before I could take a picture of those beautiful Arctic wild flowers.
I maintain that we as Canadians must govern ourselves in the north in such a way as to avoid what has happened in other parts of Canada or we shall find the north polluted and defiled, something which should never be allowed to happen. I mention this in passing, and I know the minister agrees with me in this regard.
I congratulate the minister on having arranged this "first ever" trip. It was the first time a committee of the House of Commons

had visited the vast far north. I thank the deputy minister, Mr. Gordon, the northern administrator, Mr. Henderson, and the other officials who accompanied us for the vast amount of information they were able to impart to the members of our committee. I also thank all my travelling companions for a very pleasant journey in such distinguished and agreeable company. I also wish to thank formally the chairman of the committee, the hon. member for Fort William, who gave us such good leadership during our journey.
The next expedition to be made north of the 60th parallel, which is the southern boundary of these territories, should consist of the Prime Minister and all his cabinet colleagues. They would then waken up and become cognizant of the shortcomings of the present government with respect to the needs of these territories and their peoples. If they were to take such a trip their attention would be diverted from subjects on which they have been wasting time for the past three years, namely, flags, national anthems, political inquiries, coats of arms, bilingualism and other matters which divide Canada and distract public attention from the shortcomings and blunders of the present administration in other and more important fields of their grave responsibility, including the Arctic.
As a member of the committee I appreciated the meetings we held every evening in each northern centre we visited. I will outline some of the needs expressed, some of the progress made and some of the comments, both favourable and unfavourable, advanced by the Eskimos and the Indians. At Frobisher Bay we met with the Eskimos in Apex Hill hall which is in the Eskimo village of Apex Hill just outside the town of Frobisher Bay. Hon. members will be proud to learn that this hall was built by the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire. It filled my breast with pride to read the sign outside the hall linking this illustrious order with the needs of the north. I thought of the tremendous influence for good which the Daughters of the Empire and all other patriotic Canadian ladies' organizations have exercised in the building of Canada.
One of the things which concerned the community council was the need for more adult education for Eskimos. Members of the committee will recall that the council protested the building of a government liquor store at Frobisher Bay. Most council members said it would have been better to build a radio station at Resolute Bay. They told the committee that a good radio station covering the
June 9, 1967

eastern Arctic would help serve as a classroom for the educational program they wanted. A good 10,000 watt transmitter would pay off in this regard. The government could see to it that receivers were issued to all residents and knowledge would be imparted by radio courses to these potentially adept and receptive people the year round, especially during the long months of the Arctic night. Members of the community council pointed out that though southern Canada now has colour television 40 per cent of Canada and the 30,000 people of the Northwest Territories do not even enjoy satisfactory radio transmission.
Medical services at Frobisher were said to be good, and I compliment the minister and his department on this. But the remainder of the eastern Arctic depends on the ship C. D. Howe which once a year brings medical attention to outports near Arctic waterways. The C. D. Howe costs $15,000 a day to operate and we were told that last year it was stuck in the ice for about 15 days during which time, of course, people were getting no benefit from its services.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: May I ask the hon. member a question?


Almonte Douglas Alkenbrack: When I have finished.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: What about the nursing stations?


Almonte Douglas Alkenbrack: Most of the council agreed that it might be better to have a flying doctor service, especially on Baffin island.


Robert John (Bud) Orange: They have one.


Almonte Douglas Alkenbrack: I hope they have one by now. They did not have one at the time I mentioned. I am only reporting some of the shortcomings of this government, some of the conditions about which these people were rightly complaining. A flying doctor service costs less than a marine service and would be more efficient.
* (4:00 p.m.)
In order to establish tourism in the eastern Arctic it would be necessary to have concerted community development and a very careful policy. I do know there are many United States citizens who would like to tour the Arctic, especially the eastern Arctic. I believe there is a potential, especially in the Baffin island area, which in time could be cultivated.
I was informed that the Eskimo natives are crying for more work to do in their homes
Supply-Indian Affairs and in their fur garment and sealskin industry. I was advised that vast amounts of money are being wasted in the north in relation to welfare payments. Apparently many of the native recipients just sit around drawing relief. Their dumps get bigger and bigger, and so do the welfare payments. One Eskimo member of the council, when speaking to us at Frobisher Bay last July, said "Do not give us something we do not know what to do with; give us something that we know or can learn about, and how to use". That is pretty plain English. As someone said, it is not necessary to be among these people very long before they are able to impart to you knowledge which applies to them and about which one could not know from any other source.
When one learns to know the way the Eskimos think it is possible to appreciate what they mean. There also seemed to be an inference that the Eskimos, compared to their affluent white fellow citizens, are many levels lower in the community. One Eskimo woman stood up and spoke to the meeting. These people are very eloquent. They have an inborn innate quality which enables them to express themselves very articulately. This woman voiced the opinion that there was too much difference between the white people and the Eskimos. She said that the white people are served their fuel oil while the Eskimo people must go where the oil is kept and carry it home in a pail.
I also learned there is a big difference between the pay and the living conditions of personnel of the Department of Transport and personnel of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in the Northwest Territories. For example, personnel of the Department of Transport fare 25 per cent better than their counterparts in the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in this regard. I was told that over the past three years personnel in the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development have actually suffered a cut in wages because of the rapidly rising cost of living which we have been talking about here for the past year, and in respect of which the government has done nothing.
I have said that we must bring to the Eskimo people more needed medical services. On October 18 I pointed out to the house that there is a lack of medical services at Pond Inlet, a village of 250 people, and at Clyde River, an Eskimo village of 240 people on the northeast coast of Baffin island. These medical services are needed at those points immediately. Surely by now this problem has

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs been taken care of by the minister and his officials.
The council at Frobisher Bay was critical of the government housekeeping. It was said that the administration allows the dumping of sewage at high water near the Apex Hill housing settlement. This must be corrected and stopped. A councillor, named Tick-abick-and the hon. member for the Northwest Territories probably will remember him, because I believe he is an acquaintance- protested the fact that white people have freezers and the Eskimos are not allowed to have them. He said they might not be required in winter, but that they are required in summer because this is the time when more animals are available and can be frozen for food to be used later.
Another councillor, named Uladjuk, deplored the fact that the council has no power and should be able to do more than just sit around and talk. I am sure that all of the members of this house agree with Uladjuk. The Eskimos at Cambridge Bay require more financing for their local co-operative. An Eskimo woman who was in the audience at the Cambridge Bay meeting said that times are changing very fast as Eskimo ways change to the white man's ways. This woman too was very eloquent which, as I said before, is something common to the Eskimo race. She said she is encouraging her children to stay in school in order to learn more of the modern ways of the great outside world.
At Cambridge Bay the medical services are good. There are five nurses in the field, three doctors, and one hospital with 26 beds serving 3,000 people on the island. I should like to remind hon. members that this island, Victoria island, is a territory larger than Newfoundland.
So much for some of the needs of the Eskimos. As I told the house on October 18, the public health nurse who looks after the Dog Rib Indian tribe at Fort MacPherson needs a means to transport her patients from the outlying points to the nursing station and often to the landing stage of the Peel river. Many hon. members who have visited this area can vouch for this need. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni was with me at the time I was discussing this small but very important need at that village. I would hope that by this time the administration and the minister have arranged for the provision of a car at Fort MacPherson on the Peel river.
When speaking of the Indians, Mr. Chairman, I remember when I was a child hearing

one of the first Indian songs I ever heard. It is known as the Indian Lament. Many members probably remember it. I should like to quote the first verse of this song, because it is so true in relation to the subject we are discussing this afternoon:
An old Indian sat in his birch bark canoe And sailed o'er the waters so deep and so blue And he sang of the time when the lands were their own
Before the pale faced men among them were known.
This lament went on through many verses to commemorate the tragedy of their race.
The story of the North American Indian is one of the greatest tragedies in modern history. We found this to be the case when we visited certain sections of the north which were populated by Indians. Their plight is regrettable. The Indians at Churchill are in a very poor state. When we visited their village, their low standard of living, which is largely self inflicted, was evident. We went up a road flanked on either side by what once were neat and comfortably built government houses. These houses were recently built. They did not appear to be much over five years old. I did not see one house in which the windows were intact. This village was a real slum. It is a disgrace, not necessarily to the natives, but to us, to the people of Canada and to those of us who sit in this chamber and endeavour to administrate, e (4:10 p.m.)
The chief of that tribe just outside the town of Churchill apologized because of the broken windows in his house. He said that he did not break them but that they were broken by the younger generation who, since the tribe left the bush five years ago, had no respect whatever for tribal authority. I can see a parallel in this in relation to younger generations in other parts of Canada. These Indian young people will no longer respect civil or tribal authority. Let me commend the government for correcting this situation by moving this village to a point four miles outside the town near the Eskimo village, but I hope this is not just an act of sweeping the dust under the rug. Perhaps this will improve the lot of this Chippewan tribe of Indians outside of Churchill.
The Prime Minister has said that the Company of Young Canadians would be employed in social and citizenship work among the Indians of Canada during this our centennial year. It is my understanding that this group now consists of 112 young Canadians,
June 9, 1967

66 of whom are volunteers and 46 administrators. It seems to me that in this case there are more chiefs than Indians. Surely this situation does not augur well for the future of this Company of Young Canadians. Apparently there is a shortage in recruitment for this company of 2,400. The Prime Minister suggested that the group should comprise 2,500. It has been forecast that this company will spend $2,445,000 in carrying out its activities this year. On the basis of the number now in this company this figure works out to about $38,000 per volunteer, and 12 cents per citizen in Canada including those unfortunate Chippewan Indians who are supposed to be helped. Apparently this group of young Canadians, for which we all hold great hopes, has had little success. I do not blame the minister for this situation, but I do draw it to the attention of the Prime Minister and the cabinet.
The chief of this tribe of Chippewans has said that their greatest problem results from Indians drinking alcoholic beverages in the town of Churchill. Apparently they go into the town, partake of these beverages and then return home and destroy property. Let me ask the eternal question: Why do we aid and abet this terrible curse on these people? These were once proud Indians who have now lost all their inbred initiative as a result of the white man providing them with alcohol. We have been told that when the Indians could not buy alcohol from the white man they made their own. This problem must be solved if these once proud people are to survive, but apparently this government is doing nothing to find a solution.
At this point I should like to emphasize the need to continue the roads to resources program initiated by the former Conservative government under the sound leadership of Right Hon. John G. Diefenbaker. This program has paid off and the Pine Point railway development is living proof of that fact. I marvel at the work being done in that area and the wealth being wrested from the north and transported by that railway to markets in the south. I know that this is our most famous road to resources. Last year 185 men produced $55 million in new wealth from this northern area. I do not know what the figures are for the current year, but it is likely proportionately greater. This wealth has come from the movement of concentrates and other materials from that area to all parts of the continent.
Supply-Indian Affairs
Having regard to this railway let me remind the Minister of Transport that I noted a number of unprotected level crossings on this line, some of which were in the town of Hay River. There is quite a bit of automobile traffic in that area and these people are entitled to safety signals at these railway crossings, just as we in the southern part of the country are entitled to them. Last spring I warned the government about the folly of building new railway lines with unprotected crossings, and my remarks in this regard can be found at pages 4270 and 4271 of Hansard for that session. One might find some excuse for the lack of safety signals at level crossings on well-established lines which were built before the advent of automobile transportation, but there is no excuse for unprotected level crossings on newly constructed railway lines. On those lines every crossing should be protected. These protections should be as basic to the construction of railway lines as ties, rails and rolling stock.
In closing, let me express the hope that this government will awaken to the needs of the north and the value to Canada that this vast area could become. Let all Canadians recognize this fact and devote themselves to the development of this last and largest geographical and physical frontier of this country. We cannot all live in a narrow strip within sight of the great lakes or the 49th parallel. Let us bury the things that divide us along this narrow strip I have mentioned, and walk a little further northward in the unity that we owe this great land. We must do so if we are to develop it fully for posterity.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)


Mr. Blouin:: Mr. Chairman, I too would like to make a few remarks on the estimates of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Laing).
As the member for the largest riding in Canada, that of my hon. colleague and friend from the Northwest Territories (Mr. Orange) excepted, of course, I must say that there are several problems in my riding concerning not only the Indians but the Eskimos as well; some also stem from the tremendous size of northern Canada and the Quebec part of it in particular.
Mr. Chairman, my riding covers 375,000 square miles and has a population of 128,000. Needless to say, problems often arise which are very complex. I have already mentioned this area a few times in the house and I insist on mentioning it again.

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs
The northern part of my constituency is inhabited by most of the Indian and Eskimo population of the Quebec far north. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, I should like to mention here what has been done for certain Indian reservations, because extensive work has been undertaken recently and I would like at this stage the thank and congratulate the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development for his great understanding of these problems, and his staff for their initiative, particularly for the program which I would call the five-year home building plan launched two years ago in the renewal of certain Indian reservations of Canada.
I must also mention that my constituency includes eight official Indian reservations partly composed of the Montagnais tribe, the Naskopis and the Eskimos. These reservations are situated at Les Escoumins, Bersimis, Sept-Iles, Maliotenam, Schefferville, Mingan, Pointe-Parent, and La Romaine.
In the Bersimis reservation, several houses and schools have already been built and other improvements made. At the Sept-Iles reservation, the largest of all the Indian reservations in my constituency, there has been going on since last year a complete and total renovation of this reservation located within the very limits of this modern town which grew up and expanded through the mining developments that have occurred during the last ten years.
I also know that provision has been made to move the Schefferville Indian reservation for the greater good of this whole Indian community. However, there again, problems occur and this move will only take place when agreement is reached with the government of Quebec concerning lots, that is the land that is now owned by the crown.
There remain the Indian reservations on the lower north shore which are in a rather sorry state, not to say pitiful. These are the reservations of Mingan, Pointe-Parent and La Romaine and I hope the minister will duly note and that he will continue, as he has so well started, the improvement of the other reservations I mentioned a while ago.
I should also like to say a word about the improvements that were made to the Sept-Iles reservation, because, I said in 1956, while I was president of the chamber of commerce of that town, that the Indian reservation within the very city limits was in a deplorable condition, that there were a lot of slums and insanitary houses there and that such a

situation for Indians should not be tolerated any longer.
And I remember that at that time-I am still referring to 1956-we appealed to the minister. Indian affairs then came under the department of citizenship and immigration, which, if my memory serves me well, was then headed by the present Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill).
He came in person on the spot to assess the situation and he agreed that this situation was intolerable.
I am pleased to inform the house to-day that the minister realized that these improvements were a "must" and we are now satisfied with the results.
A little further up the north coast, as I mentioned earlier, there are several more Indian reserves in need of improvements. Some studies have been carried out in this area also, and I repeat once more I hope that the minister, who hears what I am saying, will take notice and will carry out the work to which he has given such a good start.
During the last year, Mr. Chairman, I received from various chiefs of Indian bands in my riding complaints concerning their responsibility.
They were complaining, and still are, that the government does not give them enough responsibility or freedom or, if you prefer, initiative. They are always told: The government will see to this or that, and Indian bands consider that they are thus deprived of their initiative.
Therefore, I think that as Indian bands are allowed to elect and appoint their chiefs-as is already done in a few reservations in my riding-who will be able to agree, understand and come to Ottawa-as has been done in the past-to exchange views with the departmental officials, it will then be possible to progressively delegate more responsibility and give more latitude to chiefs of Indian bands.
Mr. Chairman, there is another important matter which I would like to raise in this house today. Although it comes under provincial jurisdiction, on the one hand, it concerns also the federal government and more particularly the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.
I received not very long ago a request from the employees of the federal government who work in the far north. They are posted on the shores of Ungava bay, Hudson strait and Hudson bay, all in the province of Quebec.
June 9, 1967

Following that request signed by several federal employees, here is what was published last May 18 in the Ottawa Citizen:
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)

It is entitled "2000 are deprived of franchise". I want to bring it to the attention of the minister because I think it is a big problem. The report from the Ottawa Citizen of May 18 reads as follows:
The Labrador boundary dispute between Quebec and Newfoundland has been depriving about 2,000 Quebeckers of a provincial franchise.
Involved are whites, Indians and Eskimos of voting age in most of the vast northern territory of new Quebec, formerly known as Ungava.
These people, except for residents of Schefferville and Fort Chimo, cannot vote in a provincial electoral riding.
They can vote federally in the riding of Saguenay but although they pay taxes to the province they are not yet represented in the Quebec legislature.
Several have complained to the tax appeal board of taxation without representation while the government works out a solution to a sensitive situation.
1927 DECISION
An official disclosed that if Quebec created a new riding in new Quebec without including Labrador the move would tend to undermine Quebec's claim on the disputed boundary.
Quebec does not accept as valid the British privy council decision of 1927, awarding Newfoundland the 110,000 square miles of Labrador wilderness.
Premier Daniel Johnson has established a four-man commission to examine the "territorial integrity" of Quebec, particularly the border with Newfoundland.
Chairman of the commission is Henri Dorion, a geographer from Laval University who argued in a 1963 book that the privy council decision is legally invalid.

Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier, I wanted to let the house know about that communication. I have here the federal employees' request which reads as follows:

As residents of the province of Quebec, we feel that we are the victims of an iniquitous situation and we would therefore like to enlist your assistance.
We are residents of a community in the far north of the province, and as such are levied all the provincial taxes such as income tax, sales tax, gasoline tax and so forth.
However, the government of Quebec has not seen fit to establish an electoral district in this area in order that we as bona fide residents of the province have the right to vote in provincial elections.
We have made previous attempts both personally and collectively to obtain satisfaction on this
Supply-Indian Affairs matter, with no results. In this connection we attach a copy of a letter dated April 24, 1967 which we wrote as a group to the Income Tax Appeal Board in Ottawa, copies of which were forwarded as noted thereon. We received a reply from this board dated May 2, 1967, which stated that the board had jurisdiction solely to hear appeals against income tax and estate tax, and that the matter raised in our letter was not within its jurisdiction.
The federal member for Saguenay, in whose federal riding we fall, contacted the Minister of National Revenue on the matter; we have received copies of the minister's reply to Mr. Blouin, wherein he stated that the matter was outside the jurisdiction of his department.
We have received nothing from either of the other recipients of copies of our letter of April 24.
As mentioned above, we have also been pursuing this question upon an individual basis, and we attach further a letter received by one of our group from the chief ruling officer of the provincial department of revenue dated May 16, 1967. As you will see from the third paragraph of this letter, the provincial department has ruled that the fact of residency is the deciding factor in taxation, not the right of representation. We feel that this is a point of doubtful moral legality, with its inference that we must pay all taxation without voice in the management of our affairs.
This letter goes on to state that "every resident of the province of Quebec is entitled to every benefit that the law may grant". In this community, we receive no provincial benefits whatsoever; all community services such as education, roads, power and medical treatment are provided by the federal government.
We must emphasize that we have no objection to the payment oi taxes per se. Indeed, we are merely using the fact of taxation as a vehicle for our protest. Our contention, which we must reiterate strongly, is that it is a situation of the utmost gravity in this day when a group of people can be denied the right to vote regarding the disposition of their affairs.
Quebec and Canada draw their heritage from two of the world's oldest democracies, England and France. England won the right of representation in 1215, and France in 1789. Surely, with this great heritage, we, residents of New Quebec in 1967, cannot accept this present situation without protest.
Here is the protest from the federal employees working in the far north. I had thought I would bring this matter up while we were studying the estimates of the department. Although, as I said before, this matter is under provincial jurisdiction, it is a big problem and I think something should be worked out in collaboration with the provincial government because there is absolutely no sense in the fact that in 1967 the people, even those working in the far north, should be deprived of the right to vote, which is so dear to every Canadian.


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Chairman, I will limit my remarks in an effort to try to show some progress this afternoon. I merely want to refer to the use of the parks

June 9, 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs in the winter time. I am particularly interested in the Fundy national park in my constituency, but my thoughts might also be applied to the other maritime parks. I know that some work has been done in this field, but I feel that the department should conduct a full survey. I hate to advocate another investigation or survey for any department of the government, but I feel the time is approaching when we need a full investigation of the parks, particularly of the Fundy national park, in so far as any possible winter use is concerned.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
The park is a big thing for the area of New Brunswick in which Fundy is located. It is a tremendous hardship upon those who are dependent on the park to have a complete shutdown in September when the tourists leave. I know there are difficulties connected with winter operations. Someone asked "Do you have any visitors to Fundy national park in the wintertime?" The residents replied, "The only visitors we have are the moose that walk up and down the main street". It is that bad.
I know we investigated the possibility of opening a ski resort there a year or two ago, but it was found that would not be highly profitable. I suggest that the way people are moving around to different areas in the wintertime it might be possible to plan a skiing, curling and snowmobile resort. These things are very popular. I hope the minister will consider this appeal and have a through investigation made, during which the inhabitants will be consulted about the possibilities of the winter use of Fundy and other maritime parks.
My other thought concerns the new legislation. I believe the minister agrees with the thinking in New Brunswick in this regard. I have read one or two of his speeches and they seem to indicate quite progressive thinking. We have this park in New Brunswick which is, after all, the second smallest park. We need extra territory, and I suggest a coast line area so that we would have some beaches. This is one reason why the new legislation is necessary. I am not asking for a second national park in New Brunswick. There seem to be two points of view in the department in this regard. I hope that, in the light of the way the minister is thinking, Fundy national park will acquire additional areas along the coast line. This would give us an opportunity to have the Fundy vacation trail, and some beaches which we do not have now.

In closing, may I say I hope that, although I realize the minister has many other problems in his big department, he will not give the impression of not being as interested in the parks as he is in other branches of his department. I have been connected with this park in New Brunswick for 15 years. This is a sort of swan song because I am losing that area under redistribution. I was not around when the park was originally set up, so I cannot claim credit for that.
However, it has been a source of pride to visit the park each year and see the way it is progressing. During the time the Conservatives were in power they emphasized a scheme of winter works and park expansion. Some of this work has been continued but the impression is-I say this to the minister because I know he is a good politician and will want to correct it-that there has not been the same interest in the development of the park under the present administration. This may mean more money, and I suppose we will have to go along with that. The role of the park is changing. The length of stay for each visitor has gone down from 2.7 to 2.3 days recently. Quite a number of these commercial people have improved equipment, and I do not think we need to spend the money which we used to spend. I hope the minister will continue to foster interest in this family recreational park of Fundy.
I hope it will be possible for the parliamentary committee to visit the maritime parks now that they have that northern visit under their belts. I for one would welcome them to Fundy park in New Brunswick and would show them some of the delightful activities that can be undertaken there. For the information of members, a new branch of the liquor store has been opened in Alma, the heart of Fundy park, which indicates how progressive we are.


Mr. Badanai:: Having served as chairman of the committee on northern affairs and national resources, having had the privilege of leading 22 members of that committee on a two week visit to the north, from the eastern to the western Arctic, and having held hearings in western national parks, I feel I should say a few words of commendation to the minister for his very co-operative attitude. He has appeared before the committee at various times and given every bit of information asked of him, which was most useful to the committee. I should like also to express deep appreciation to the deputy minister and assistant deputy ministers for their assistance in
June 9, 1967

guiding the committee through their examination of the estimates, and for the arrangements made for our visits to the north and to the national parks.
I should like also to congratulate the minister upon his presentation of government policy in connection with national parks with which, notwithstanding some opposition to it, I heartily agree, and believe to be a policy which is acceptable to the overwhelming majority of Canadians. I heard the hon. member for Brandon-Souris make a very useful and classical presentation here this morning on this particular subject. We agree on many things, but there are one or two points concerning the leasehold proposition which may be debatable.
During our visits to the parks numerous presentations were received from many segments of our society regarding all aspects of park policy. Among all the submissions we received, there were several commending the government for its policy. I am not going to quote them all, but I am going to quote from the submission of the National and Provincial Parks Association of Canada. On page 8 of that submission, I find this:
As I realize your committee is concerned with the policy as it affects leases, I shall say a word about this.
We have studied both sides of this question to the best of our ability and have read statements by both Mr. Laing and the organized leaseholders.
It is most regrettable that the controversy over this issue has generated such extreme bitterness and ill will. In our view, this came about more because of a breakdown in communications than from any real objection to the government's policy per se.
Without going into the question of the legality of the government's proposals, there is no doubt in our minds that there is need for the crown to control leases more effectively than in the past in the interests of the Canadian people as a whole and taking into consideration the enormous and growing pressures on the use of parks. The idea that individuals should have the right to hold leases on cottages or summer homes in either national or provincial parks for their private use and enjoyment, no matter what the justification for it in the past, is an anachronism in this day and age. Doing away with such leases is a problem which some of the provinces have already faced up to. Ontario, for example, has for some time now been withdrawing leases as they fall due on cottages and commercial properties in Algonquin park. We support the government's policy to have eventually only those persons engaged in the
Supply-Indian Affairs administration of a park or the supply of necessary visitor services, and their dependants, as permanent park residents.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
We urge most strongly, however, that everything possible be done to avoid causing hardship to those affected by this new ruling. We are quite sure that the government intends to be fair, and will be fair in carrying out this policy. In view of the difficulties that have arisen with regard to leases, we believe that the government's proposal to set up a crown corporation to deal with this matter in future deserves consideration. Its terms of reference and the composition of its board of directors will need to be given most careful study, however, if the corporation is to function effectively and its influence kept within bounds. Great care will have to be taken if the corporation is established to see it is not able to wield power for which it does not have to account; nor must its powers enable it to influence policy in areas other than leasing. In other words, it must be an instrument for carrying out policy, not creating it.
A little bit of history may be appropriate at this point. When the first national park was established there was discussion in the House of Commons over proposed lease terms. Provision was made to grant leases for terms of 42 years with provision for repeated renewal-in other words, in perpetuity. Due, to a very great extent, to the very large capital expenditures by the federal government and to the enormous increase in park visitors, especially in recent years, the value of leasehold property has been greatly enhanced. As a result, sales of leasehold interests have often been made involving exorbitant profit to the leaseholder with no commensurate return to the landlord-the citizens of Canada. Today there are approximately 2,500 leases and licences of occupation in existence. Seventy per cent are old leases containing renewal clauses on expiration of each 42 years. Fourteen per cent are for 42 years, with provision for a single renewal for 21 years. The remaining 16 per cent have been issued since 1962 and are for 42 years or less without provision for renewal.
In all leases, the crown reserved certain rights, such as the prohibition of assignment without the written consent of the minister, and the right to review periodically the rent charged and to charge a rent equal to the annual value of the land.
The objectives of the national parks system are, first, to ensure the national park lands

June 9. 1967
Supply-Indian Affairs are passed on to future generations; second, to provide for the best use of the national parks consistent with their intended purpose; third, to serve the people in an effective and meaningful manner by helping them to understand and enjoy the parks; fourth, to encourage private enterprise to invest in and manage appropriate facilities for the visiting public inside and adjacent to parks, complementing governmental developments; and fifth, to expand the system adequately in every region of Canada.
I realize that among the many submissions we received from the residents of Banff and Jasper there may be some whose cases may deserve some special consideration. I am sure the minister is only too happy to take their cases into consideration.
Before I leave the question of national parks I would like to recommend to the minister that some serious consideration be given to the establishment of a national park in the lakehead region, where a beautiful chain of mountains, known as the great northwest, are situated almost at the gate of Fort William.
I have indicated to the minister the desire in this respect of the lakehead chamber of commerce, enthusiastically supported by the publisher of the Daily Times-Journal of Fort William, whose name is George Macgillivray, a member of the clan of Sir William Macgillivray, a governor of the Hudson Bay port in Fort William, after whom the city was named.
I am grateful to the hon. member for Prince Edward-Lennox for his kind remarks and for giving us a comprehensive and interesting report on the visit of the committee to the Canadian Arctic. His assessment of our visit demonstrated the co-operative and friendly spirit which animated every member of my committee.
Just a few words about the north, Mr. Chairman. During our visit to the north the committee held meetings at every point, from the east to the west, and the report which was presented to the house last September reveals some of the problems the remedying of which should present no difficulty to the government. One of these was the matter of radio and television, which the minister has indicated today will be taken care of gradually beginning with the T.V. station at Yellowknife.
One thing which was brought to the attention of the house by the hon. member for the Northwest Territories during the throne speech debate was the provision of water and

sewage services to the west end of the town of Inuvik, as the centre and east parts of the town are already serviced by utilidors.
There are many other questions that I could touch upon, but I see that there are other members anxious to speak on these estimates and I will therefore not prolong my remarks, except to say that the committee has served a useful purpose by visiting the far north and the western national parks, which now leaves the need for a visit to the eastern national parks which I hope the house will authorize to be made this fall.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. It being five o'clock, and in order that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members business, shall I rise, report progress and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house?


Arthur Laing: Mr. Chairman, would you permit me to make a suggestion. I thought that if we could possibly conclude the estimates of my department this afternoon there might be some inclination on the part of members of the committee to forgo private members hour on condition of course that the time would not be lost but would be picked up again later. That is just a suggestion I make. On the other hand, if members would indicate that they want separate items brought up on another day, probably we should go over to private members hour. However, I thought that if there was a chance of concluding the estimates there might be some merit in continuing.


Herman Maxwell Batten: 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Rapp:: Mr. Speaker, I object to the suggestion of the minister. Our party has two speakers who wanted to speak, but we cannot get in touch with them now. I am afraid that I cannot agree to the minister's suggestion. Had we had notice of his intention we could have got in touch with those two speakers.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: With respect to what was said by the Conservative whip, we could agree to going on with the estimates in place of the
June 9, 1967
COMMONS DEBATES	1375
private members hour, but that should not be taken as implying that we would agree to finishing the consideration of the entire estimates. Possibly we might finish discussing item 1. I do not know if my suggestion would meet the requirements of the Conservative whip, but if we completed item 1 we might leave the consideration of the other aspects of the administration of the department and its branches to another day.


Reynold Rapp: Let item 1 stand.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Is it the suggestion that we continue with the estimates, rather than proceeding with private members hour?


Arthur Laing: That is a suggestion.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Unfortunately the minister's suggestion came unexpectedly. One or two members of this party wish to speak on the first item, and I think it would be only fair to them to leave that item open, to allow those hon. members who had wanted to talk on it the opportunity to speak.


Arthur Laing: In light of what I said at first, 1 think it would be better if the house proceeded to consideration of private members hour.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order please. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members hour as listed on today's order paper, namely public bills and private bills.


Mr. Pilon:: Mr. Speaker, at the request of the government may items Nos. 1 to 5 on today's order paper listed under public bills be allowed to stand? Would Your Honour proceed with item No. 6, second reading of Bill C-9 to license and regulate the operation of rainmaking equipment.


Mr. Speaker:: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



RAINMAKING EQUIPMENT


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-9, to govern, license and regulate the operation of rainmaking equipment in Canada.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the short title of this bill is a misnomer, because I am interested in legislation to deal with techniques which have recently been devised which affect the weather, and in that way constitute an interference with the weather enjoyed by individuals. It is
27053-88J
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment suggested that in these days the weather can be influenced by technology, which involves seeding clouds by the use of silver nitrate and iodine crystals, as well as other crystals which mix with the clouds, thus causing precipitation. The theory is that these crystals have an affinity for water, and if they are released into the air, under certain conditions with appropriate temperatures the molecules of water in clouds are drawn together with the molecules in the crystals; heavier water molecules are created and these, in turn, fall to the earth in the form of precipitation.
It is debatable whether one can make rain, though this subject has been discussed on the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I do not refer to the sort of rainmaking that the Indians engaged in with some success over the years. Hon. members may remember a court case on this continent that took place a few years ago, where the Indians were sued for large sums of money for causing a catastrophe by making rain. The Indians were hired to make rain; they were hired to make a reasonable amount of rain and the rain came, but it kept coming and coming. Eventually there was a flood and the Indians were sued because of the calamity that developed. Whether such a thing is possible I do not know, but I do know that it is possible, from scientific advances, to change atmospheric conditions so as to produce rain. Rain may be produced, provided other conditions are suitable.
Several departments of the provincial governments of Ontario and Quebec have been using rainmaking equipment to help to prevent forest fires. In Ontario, especially, a great deal of discussion has taken place in certain communities about the question of rainmaking. Several years ago the housewives of the Lake St. John area complained that, because of certain activity by the Department of Transport, they had not been able to dry their clothes for 60 days. In that period the sun never shone and it rained every day. The transport department at that time were conducting tests to determine the efficiency of rainmaking equipment in that area. The surprising thing is that when this activity stopped, after the housewives had complained, the weather cleared, the rain disappeared and fair weather followed immediately.
Hon. members may also remember what happened when the Ontario government used rainmaking equipment to solve some problems that farmers experienced. At that time there was a motion to adjourn the legislature
1376	COMMONS
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment under the special section which calls for the consideration of an immediate national problem. There was discussion about the drought which had been recurring over a period of years in the Renfrew area. The provincial government, to solve the difficulty, finally authorized $250,000 to be spent to hire a United States firm of rainmakers. It will be remembered, Mr. Speaker, that the firm brought its equipment to the Ottawa valley and-this may be taken as coming from Ripley's "Believe it or Not"-on that very day, when the matter was being discussed in the legislature, the rain began. The equipment was operating, though the company said that it had not influenced what happened on that day.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
The house may remember that the farmers were again in difficulty later on because the rain did not stop once it had started; they found themselves facing, not drought but an overabundance of moisture. Whether or not the rain making equipment in use today achieves the results which the farmers allege, I cannot claim to know with any certainty. In many of the areas where this equipment has been used the farmers claim there is a "yoyo" effect; the crystals are sent into the air by the use of a heat generator; they are carried by the clouds for a period before rain is produced, and then they fall back to the earth along with the rain. There are farmers who say that as soon as the sun comes out the crystals warm up, become lighter than air and rise into the clouds causing rain to fall again.
I know that in my own area where this equipment was used extensively some years back, no cloud passed over without some precipitation falling, even though in some cases it was very little. The department of lands and forests has been using these methods for some time, with limited success, as far as I know. The difficulty appears to be that after a cloud has been seeded the wind can change and the rain can fall where it is not needed.
This is what happened when the department seeded clouds for the purpose of dampening down forest fires. The prevailing wind changed and rain fell on agricultural land where it was not needed. This lack of assurance that rain will fall where it is intended to fall is another factor which affects the need to licence rain-making equipment. If this was a skilled science, as some of the companies operating this equipment would have us believe, it would be possible for a man to seed clouds in such a way that rain would fall on his neighbour's property. This is not possible. It

DEBATES	June 9, 1967
is all too likely to fall on his own property or on the wrong neighbour's property. This is not a field where provincial jursdiction is applicable. The winds know no boundaries and the results of this rain making are interprovincial in scope. For this reason I believe the federal government should assume responsibility for the control of the equipment used.
I am not proposing that rain making equipment should be prohibited. What I am proposing is that it should be licensed so that the government would have a measure of control over those who operate it and where it is used, in order to be in a position to judge whether rain falling in a given area had been brought about by those who were operating these machines and who might therefore be responsible for any damage caused to other parties.
In the example I gave, equipment was being operated in northern Ontario by the Ontario government's department of lands and forests. Damage was caused to agricultural communities which had no connection with that department at all. After it had been assessed the federal government had to make grants to assist farmers who had lost crops because of the continuing rain. The Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) was in the area at the time-an election was in progress-and he promised immediate relief to those concerned. Incidentally, this was not forthcoming. Indeed I wonder whether the federal government really had any responsibility; the fact that the provincial government took certain action is no reason for the federal government undertaking to pick up the tab.
The simple purpose of this bill is to licence, rainmaking equipment, thus allowing for records to be kept and the consequent assessment of any damage which might be claimed. Hon. members may say that this is not the responsibility of government. I would point out to them that in many parts of the country it is necessary to obtain a fire permit before burning any cover or brush during certain periods. A permit is required so that if a fire gets out of control the man responsible for it may be held liable for any damage caused.
There is not much difference between this and the circumstances I have been discussing. I believe everyone who has studied this subject agrees that it is possible to cause rain to fall in certain conditions. Provincial governments are certainly aware of the technical advances which have been made, otherwise they could not pay for rainmaking services
June 9, 1967
COMMONS DEBATES	1377
and equipment. Incidentally, when I talked to the minister of agriculture down in Ontario he told me they did not know what to do about the drought in the Renfrew area and had hired rainmaking equipment as a last resort. A year later he told me his department had still not been able to assess whether $250,000 of benefit had been received from that equipment or whether rain would have fallen anyway. But in order to satisfy the public and keep the farmers off their backs the department had undertaken this expense, with considerable success, it would appear; in fact it was greater than anticipated and, in the end, became a liability.
I know that some hon. members will take lightly this idea that rainmaking equipment should be licensed. Perhaps they have not looked into the technical aspects of this operation. If they do, they will probably be as interested as I am in some of the things which the professors and technicians have been accomplishing in this field. As I say, there is general agreement that in certain conditions rain can be induced to fall from clouds which otherwise would not have released rain in a given locality.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)
I think that most members, if they really think about the situation, will agree that the licensing and regulations which the government should establish around rainmaking equipment and which would be to the advantage of those operating the equipment and those who are paying for the use of the rainmaking equipment, would eliminate the valid objection by other people to the making of rain with this type of equipment. They will know that there is an avenue open to them to ascertain whether or not the equipment itself has been responsible for the creation of their damage and that there will be an opportunity for them to claim compensation for any damage caused to them as a result of the use of this equipment.
I do not expect that this bill will be passed today. We do not usually pass private members bills. I do suggest, however, that hon. members who are interested in agriculture, forestry and in fact in any control over our natural resources should be interested in the bill. I certainly would be pleased to support any government legislation which may flow from what I think is a new problem and one which will grow considerably with the technical advances that are being made in this particular field.
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, I am a little surprised that other members of the house are not in a rush to speak on this very interesting subject. I should like to say a few words in support of the bill which has been brought before us by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters). I was rather interested in the situation which developed in eastern Canada a while ago when the authorities of the province of Ontario undertook a program of seeking to induce rain by means of cloud seeding equipment. A few years ago similar events took place in the province of British Columbia, in the area of Canada which I represent in this house. At that time the then B.C. power commission and also the then Powell River company installed silver iodide generators for the purpose of inducing rainfall into the watershed areas which provide the source of supply for the dams for power purposes, in the case of the B.C. power commission, and for the supply of water for the production of pulp and paper in the case of the Powell River company.
So far as I know I was the first member ever to introduce this subject on the floor of the House of Commons. At least I had that impression from a discussion I had afterward with the then minister of justice, Hon. Stuart Garson. I may say, as a result of having raised this matter for the first time, among certain members of the house I was unofficially known by the nickname "Rainmaker". It was the then hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, Mr. Jack MacDougall, who tagged me with that label. He was rather fond of giving nicknames to members.
I should like to say that I raised the matter as a question which should receive consideration by the government because I expected, if this development continued, that the kind of problems which have been raised by the hon. member for Timiskaming in his speech, concerning the right of a certain individual or a corporation to take action which might affect the rights and well being of others, would arise.
I remember that I used the example of the farmer who had his hay out in the fields to dry when the B.C. power commission decided to precipitate rain in that particular area. In my view the potential infringement of the rights of the farmer was there. One question of course which immediately arises in a consideration of this kind, in a federal state such as ours, is as to where the jurisdiction lies. Is it a federal or a provincial matter? I argued
1378	COMMONS
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment then, and I argue still, that certainly the weatherman knows no provincial boundaries and that the conditions which create weather conditions, be they rain, sunshine, drought or flood, certainly are not confined within the boundaries of any individual province. It seems to me therefore that any legislation in this field probably lies within the jurisdiction of the federal authorities.
I think the proposal of my colleague that this regulation, through licence, should come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Transport, is an appropriate one, because as we all know the meteorological services which would provide the basic data on which to base any control or regulation come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport. It is for that reason I believe this bill should receive serious consideration. I know there are questions which remain concerning the technical or technological efficacy of the various devices which have been used for cloud seeding, be they devices operated from the ground or devices used from airplanes in dispersing the silver iodide crystals which I understand are the generally used medium for helping the formation of the kind of water droplets which become heavy enough to be precipitated to the earth in the form of rain.
All too often it seems to me we have a tendency to lock the barn door after the horse has been stolen, as the old saying goes. In other words, in this chamber, we are not moved to the point of legislating until a situation involving serious damage or trouble has occurred. In view of the fact that we do know that there are established business concerns which are in the business of providing this service, and in view of the fact that we do know that provincial authorities and publicly owned corporations such as the B.C. power commission have taken this seriously enough to actually engage business firms to carry out this type of operation, it seems to me it would be quite appropriate that we should not be reluctant to agree to provide to a responsible jurisdiction control and licensing over such operations.
It is for these reasons that I thought I should like to say a few words in support of Bill No. C-9, which has been put before us by the hon. member for Timiskaming.


Mr. Grant Deachman (Vancouver Quadra):: Mr. Speaker, there is a story that a Russian meteorologist by the name of Rudolf was lecturing on the subject of rainmaking one evening when a member of the audience turned

DEBATES	June 9, 1967
to his wife and said, "Rudolph, the red, knows rain, dear".


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)


Grant Deachman: I want to say that having listened to their able addresses, it is apparent the two gentlemen opposite also know something about rain. Being a member from the city of Vancouver I have some slight acquaintance with this subject as well.
I enter this debate this afternoon not because I am an authority on rain making, and indeed not because I have prepared myself to address the house on this subject, but because-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Because you were drafted.


Grant Deachman: -I was drafted in the absence of another member, who I am sure, if he were here, could deliver a very, learned lecture on this subject. He left me an abundance of papers and I should like to deal with them for a few moments because they cast some interesting light on this subject.
When we discuss a technical subject of this kind in the house during these last hours of the week, and if the subject is technical enough, some executive assistant is asked to go back and dig out the material that has been put together by experts of various departments in order to deal intelligently with the subject. In this way he can outline to hon. members what the government is doing and what the policy may be. In this particular case the government takes the subject quite seriously, and a considerable amount of work has taken place in the Department of Transport and in the meteorological branch in an attempt to follow the experiments of the emerging science of cloud seeding, and its importance in influencing rainfall. It is interesting to note that some of the material which has come into my hands as a result of drafting this effort this afternoon indicates the amount of material which is available to us on this subject.
I have a memo from which I should like to read a few sentences, because it helps to shed some light on the background of this subject. In part it states:
From 1959 to 1963 Inclusive, a precipitation physics project was carried on by the meteorological branch of the Department of Transport in the Rouyn-Noranda area of the province of Quebec.
That is an area in the neighbourhood of the riding of the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Caouette). Members will recall that during
June 9, 1967

the last session of parliament this subject seemed to frighten the living daylights out of that gentleman from time to time, probably because he thought that the opposition was attempting to bring down thunderclouds on his head.
The memo then goes on to state that an aircraft was fitted out with instruments for taking physical measurements of precipitation mechanisms, and at the same time to conduct an investigation to evaluate the effect of cloud seeding. The memo states:
Two areas in Quebec, along the border of Ontario in the vicinity of Rouyn-Noranda, were chosen for these cloud seeding experiments. The areas were approximately 35 miles square and 35 miles apart., . On suitable occasions, clouds already producing rain upwind of one of the test areas were seeded with silver iodide. The clouds upwind from the other area were not seeded, so that a comparison could be made of the rain that fell in the seeded area and that which fell in the unseeded control area.
From 1959 to 1963, 54 cloud and rain situations were seeded with silver iodide. Seeding was carried on for a total of 173 hours and 19 minutes. Forty five of these cases were found suitable for analysis, and the rainfall from these situations was compared statistically.
The memo then goes on to say:
However, it appears that the chances of making large changes in rainfall by this method are very slight. As expressed by the statisticians, the probability of an increase or decrease in rainfall greater than 22 per cent was found to be less than 1 in 20.
There appears to be something less than a good chance of making rain, not even great enough to frighten the nervous member for Villeneuve. The memo then continues:
Because of the large natural variability of rainfall it was found to be impossible to be more precise about the effects of seeding. These results are similar to those found in most other carefully controlled tests of cloud seeding such as have been carried out in Australia and the United States.
That was not an isolated expression of an attempt to gain knowledge by the Canadian meteorological department on this subject. There is a considerable amount of information on the subject contained in government pamphlets, samples of which I have. The first was dated December 1, 1965, under the title "Cloud seeding to influence rainfall-it's importance and present status" written by C. L. Crozier and J. D. Holland. It is interesting to note in this particular pamphlet that experiments have been going on all around the world regarding this very interesting subject. Field experiments have taken place in Argentina and statistical evaluations have been made there.
Licence jbr Rainmaking Equipment
Since 1947 Australia has been undertaking fundamental studies of physical processes occurring in clouds. In France about ten French organizations are working on various facets of artificial weather modification, closely related with basic cloud physics studies. Israel has conducted field experiments and laboratory studies on artificial cloud modification for many years. After a number of years of experiments, Italy has now begun a program which is attempting to solve, on a practical basis, the problem of control and evaluation of the results of seeding cumuliform clouds. Two groups in Japan with weather modification interests have experimented with ground based and balloon borne silver iodide generation, and experiments are being carried out in Mexico as well as in the U.S.S.R. and in communist China. There is also a considerable amount of experimentation taking place in the United States. From all this one can see that there is interest throughout the world in this subject.
In view of this great interest throughout the world perhaps the time has come, as the hon. member suggested today in introducing his bill, to think in terms of what may be needed should rainmaking become a science through which it is possible to precipitate moisture in sizable quantities under control. If this could be done all sorts of problems might be created in relation to when, to what extent, and through which company, corporations or municipalities, rain should be created.
This bill is perhaps timely because we should give some thought to this subject and keep in touch with the experiments that are being made in this field. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have the subject matter of this bill referred to the transport committee. That committee would then have the opportunity of calling upon government experts and outside witnesses in order to gain some comprehension of what is involved.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
Mr. Speaker, I hear some thunder now.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Grant Deachman: The noise of thunder points up my remarks. Not so very long ago we began worrying on an international scale about regulating the use of outer space. If we are seriously considering such matters as regulating outer space, it is perhaps high time we began thinking in terms of regulating the moisture in the clouds which hang over our heads.
June 9, 1967
1380	COMMONS
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment
There is another aspect of making the earth fertile that will undoubtedly come to us more quickly than rainmaking. I think that making the land fertile will come in the movement of rivers and with irrigation projects generated therefrom. I believe this is a field we should be studying concurrently with such matters as rainmaking, because it is becoming more and more important to learn how to govern the water and moisture available to us in a world increasing in population and aridity.
One of the things you notice when flying westward over old Toronto is the way in which the forest has been denuded. The land now appears quite arid. This is especially so in midsummer. I am sure that in our fathers' and grandfathers' time this condition did not exist. There was then much swampland, much forestland, and the temperature and humidity were different because of the tree coverage and the retention of moisture therefrom. As we fly over and look down at the great lakes we see around the rim of the lakes the receding shoreline and the evidence of widening beaches. We then realize that the water tables of the continent are sinking as a result of decreasing forest cover, swampland and the moist areas which the forests retain. I think this should be an important part of our studies in learning to husband the resources of water on this continent.
We in the west are very concerned about these matters because we have the privilege of living in an area of a great amount of water and see to the south, in the arid desert land of the United States, people who would like to move this water into their areas in order to water the deserts and make them green. When one considers the Middle East problem which faces this house today I think you will find that a great deal of the problem arises from their difficulties with regard to water and moisture, the subject we are talking about today. We find that the nations experimenting with rainmaking, all forms of irrigation and methods of producing moisture for their lands-this is the case in the Middle East-are very much worried about how they will cultivate the soil for their increasing populations.
This is a very all-embracing and important subject. It is one to which we in the House of Commons should address ourselves in several ways. Even as a pinch-hitter this afternoon, with no expertise on the subject, I realize, as I think all hon. members do, that this question is vitally important to us and deserves serious consideration.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Question.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, we have heard speeches from the hon. members for Timiskaming and Co-mox-Alberni (Messrs. Peters and Barnett) which provided us with valuable and enlightening information with regard to a matter which deserves our most serious consideration.
That is the reason why I thank the hon. member for Timiskaming for raising this problem in the house; indeed, on several occasions, it was a source of deep concern for many people living in various ridings across the country.
In 1964, we remember that an hon. member had called the attention of the authorities on the problem caused by what it was agreed to call rainmaking equipment, and we shall remember also a particular debate which took place in the house, in an attempt to clarify this really serious problem.
It is too bad that the members of the official opposition, the members of the Conservative party, do not see fit to take part in this debate. Of course, when it comes to technological evolution and scientific contribution, our friends, the Tories, are outclassed.
When it comes to fight to keep the word "Dominion" they are all there. When it comes to fight in order to keep part of the Union Jack on our flag, they spare no effort. But when the real problems of society are involved, when it is time to consider scientific progress, a problem in which our younger generation is keenly interested rather than in the survival of obsolete symbols recalling certain parts of our history, the development of which we hope for, in some respects, since our country is developing when it is a question of science and technology, this is beyond the Conservative party.
I congratulate the members of the New Democratic party and my Liberal colleagues on their fine contribution to a debate held in a modern context. The year 1967 is the area of science and of technology. Obsolete symbols are no longer worth generating useless struggles which have so often hindered the progress of our country.
Mr. Speaker, the problem, as I said earlier, deserves to be studied thoroughly. We know that in the United States, for example, rainmaking machines are being investigated by the most brilliant minds, for it has been
June 9, 1967
COMMONS DEBATES	1381
proved that these machines can prevent hurricanes. Hon. members will remember the disaster caused by hurricane Flora in 1963, in which 7,000 people lost their lives and the damage was assessed at some 500 million dollars.
Scientific research has progressed to the point where, today, rainmaking machines may turn out to be the answer to the disasters caused by hurricanes.
Hurricanes which cause great damage are classified as such when winds are blowing at 75 miles per hour over a surface between 100 and 800 miles in diameter and last about 30 days. Now, Mr. Speaker, these "rainmaking machines" can prevent hurricanes and prevent irreparable disasters because crystals of silver iodide can penetrate to the very core of hurricanes and bring their course to an end. That is why a problem such as the one which is brought up today certainly deserves special study.
Doubtless, the hon. member for Timis-kaming will say once more: Bills introduced by members are never passed and are never followed up.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is a little pessimistic to speak in those terms, because the idea has been put forward. It is practically impossible for the House of Commons to say that the bill must be passed immediately, without the project which might have far-reaching consequences being studied by a special committee or referred to experts in that field.
I think that the private members' hour is worthwhile. It makes it possible to put an idea forward and it also enables the administration, whether it is the cabinet itself, the bureaucracy or the officials at a lower level, to study the bill and implement it after the idea has truly taken root in the minds of those who are supposed to prepare legislation.
Therefore, I consider that it is unfair to say: members of parliament are there to prevent the passing of a bill. I do not think that is the case. Any hon. member knows very well that if he were, say, minister of transport, and at a given moment such a bill was before the house, he would be the first to say:
I find this bill interesting, but before passing it as fast as the hon. member wants, the matter should be referred to experts in that field.
Therefore, I think that it is very pessimistic to denounce those who avail themselves of the hour to kill a bill, as we say commonly. I 27053-89
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment do not think it is killing a bill; on the contrary, it is taking it into consideration. The idea is brought up. The more the hon. member will bring up the matter, the more the idea will evolve and the more it will become likely to be accepted.
Mr. Speaker, I would now like to comment on clause 3.
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)


William Arnold Peters: May I ask the hon. member whether he proposes to refer this bill to the transport committee. If so, I am prepared to second his motion.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to give an opinion on the subject, because I am not a member of the transport and communications committee. And if members who sit on the said committee were here, I think they would be in a much better position than I to answer the question of the hon. member. That is why, unaware of the legislative program and of the work before the members of the transport and communications committee, I cannot say that I am in favour of having it sent immediately to the committee. If it were a matter concerning agriculture-I understand that there is a connection or let us say that it is indirectly related to agriculture because if rainmaking equipment is used abusively, the crops can be affected-and since I am a member of the agriculture, forestry and rural development committee, if we were studying a specific project dealing with agriculture, and if I were asked my opinion as to the development of a project within the committee, I would be in a position to answer in the affirmative.
Since I sit on the agriculture, forestry and rural development committee, I know what will be studied by the said committee. But since I am not a member of the committee on transport and communications, I think it would be bold on my part and perhaps even deceptive to say: Let us pass the bill now.
Mr. Speaker, before I conclude my remarks-


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit me a question? Would he be prepared to refer the subject matter of the bill to the committee on agriculture? If so,
I would be pleased to second such a motion.
1382	COMMONS
Licence for Rainmaking Equipment [Translation]


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, if the bill were referred to the committee on agriculture, forestry and rural development, the hon. member, who has been sitting in this house for quite some time, should know that it would probably be considered out of order. But I do not agree that the bill should be studied by that committee. To my mind, the committee on transport and communications is the one that should study it, and if its chairman were here, I would encourage him, urge him to say yes.
However, I do not want to meddle with the responsibilities of the members of a committee on which I do not sit.
Before concluding my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out a deficiency-


Mr. Robert Stanbury (York-Scarborough):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a
DEBATES	June 9. 1967
question? I do not think rainmaking has anything to do with either transport or communications. It may have something to do with agriculture, but it has still more to do with air, and the committee on broadcasting, films, and assistance to the arts deals with the air. Would the hon. member not agree that that would be the proper committee to which this matter should be referred?


Auguste Choquette: I think that if the hon.
member were to read the Glassco report very carefully, as I did, I believe for my part-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order, please. Perhaps it is about time that the Speaker took to the air. The hour for the consideration of private members business has expired.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 12, 1967