1967-03-15

PRIVILEGE


Mr. Speaker:: Yesterday the hon. member for Edmonton West raised as a question of privilege what he termed a gross irregularity in the presentation of National Defence spending estimates for the coming fiscal year. He argued that the form of these estimates is in violation of the National Defence Act and the Financial Administration Act. The hon. member gave notice of a motion to have the book of estimates withdrawn and revised by the government.
Arguments were advanced by the right hon. Leader of the Opposition and by other hon. members in support of the claim that the estimates as presented are irregular in form and illegal, and that they affect parliamentary privileges.
The minister in reply argued that his departmental estimates were submitted on the basis of the approved integrated commands of the armed services. The hon. members for Medicine Hat and Greenwood also argued that there was no valid objection at this point to the form of these estimates and, therefore, no question of privilege.
Essentially the question submitted to the Chair is whether the proposed estimates of the Department of National Defence are presented in such a form as to be contrary to existing law. Some hon. members claim that the presentation is irregular, others argue that it is legal. The point is of course of great interest to parliament, and the concern expressed in the form of the proposed motion may be quite justified. What the Chair has to determine is whether the debate should come before the house at this time, in priority to other business, by way of a question of privilege. Certainly it is not for the Chair to decide whether these estimates are presented in a form that is contrary to the existing law. According to the usages of parliament the Speaker does not rule on a question of law.
In my view the proposition advanced by the hon. member for Edmonton West does not meet the requirements of a prima facie question of privilege. It is really an argument, no doubt serious, that can be brought forward by way of objection to the adoption of these estimates. It is undoubtedly a relevant point of debate when a supply motion is before the house for consideration. But in my humble opinion it is not a question of privilege, and therefore I cannot accept the motion proposed by the hon. member for Edmonton West.



COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
Second report of special joint committee on the national and royal anthems-Mr. Ryan.
Ninth report of standing committee on justice and legal affairs-Mr. Cameron (High Park).
[Note: Text of the foregoing reports appear in today's Votes and Proceedings.]


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two copies in English and in French of the report of the Ottawa river engineering board, entitled "Report on hydrology and regulation of the Ottawa river".
This board was appointed in 1962 by the governments of Canada, Ontario and Quebec to investigate the hydrology of the Ottawa river basin and the existing regulation of its waters. It was to establish procedures which would make available accurate and timely hydrologic data and to determine whether improvements in regulation were possible.
The board investigated the existing regulation on the basis of monthly mean flow data and found that this has been generally satisfactory and has been efficient in the production of power. The board considers that the co-operative arrangement which has been in effect among users constitutes a satisfactory method for determining regulated flows.
The board recommends that a committee of pertinent agencies be established to advise

March 15, 1967
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on the needed expansion of hydrological and meteorological networks and to continue studies of forecasting procedures.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the minister have leave to table this report?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):: Mr. Speaker, not having been favoured with a copy of the report or a preliminary copy of the minister's statement, it is difficult at this point to comment in any detail upon what has been said or the implications of what may be recommended in that document. I should like, however, to express the very real hope that as a result of the report and the consideration to be given to it by the government effective steps will be instituted without further delay to clean up the Ottawa river. It is surely a reflection of the neglect by government of this situation that while we have had a civilization here for perhaps three centuries, the Ottawa river is generally regarded by experts in the field as reflecting a more acute state of pollution than even the Rhine river in Europe, which has served industry and population for scores of centuries. This surely poses a challenge to the government of Canada and the Canadian people to clean up this river and set an example in effective and co-operative measures to restore our waters to a state in which they can again be a credit and a service to our people.
The thing that concerns me and which I particularly urge upon the government and the minister is that they should no longer hesitate to give the lead and take the initiative in this regard. It is true that it is an area in which the jurisdiction of province is involved, but we will achieve no solution, no action, no remedies unless this national problem finds on the part of the national government a readiness to advocate solutions, to take the initiative and institute measures to correct it. In this way the national problem could find a national solution. I hope the government will not hesitate any longer to take the leadership in this matter, call the provinces into consultation and with them work out co-operative measures for the cleaning up of the Ottawa river, which might then serve as a wholesome example of a solution of this nation-wide problem in the immediate future.
(Mr. Pepin.]



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Isabelle: 1.	How much money will the National Capital Commission provide for land expropriations needed for the construction of highway No. 8 in the province of Quebec?
2.	Have these expropriations been started and, if so, when will construction begin on the link between the approaches to the MacDonald-Cartier bridge and the new highway No. 8 which will follow Brewery creek?


Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Minister of Public Works):: 1. Extensive discussions have been held with the government of the province, and it is anticipated that an agreement will be signed. It has been estimated that the land to be used for this purpose would cost the National Capital Commission approximately $17 million, including federal crown land.
2.	No expropriations have been started for this project by the National Capital Commission.


STUDY OF FEDERAL DISTRICT
Mr. Isabelle: 1.	Has the federal government ever conducted a study on the establishment of a federal district?
2.	Is a study now being conducted on this matter?
3.	If so, in what year and by whom was such a study prepared and, if not, is the federal government planning to have a study conducted on the establishment of a national district including the cities of Ottawa and Hull and neighbouring towns?


George James McIlraith: 1. Not in recent years.
2.	No.
3.	No.


HOLIDAY BENEFITS, C.B.C. CAMERAMEN
Mr. Howard: Does each employee of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation with the classification of "film cameraman" receive the benefits of Part IV, General Holidays, of the Canada Labour (Standards) Code and, if not, what is (a) the name of each such employee (b) the name of the community within which he works (c) the reason for not providing him with the said benefits?


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Secretary of Slale):: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as follows: All film cameramen have been given the actual holidays or time
March 15, 1967

off in lieu of the holidays at all locations except Toronto and Halifax. At both these locations, the practice has been to grant the holidays where assignment of the employee has not been required, and where assignment was necessary no additional time credit was allowed. However, these two locations have been informed that, retroactive to July 1, 1965, time credits are to be given to all film cameramen who have not received credit for general holidays in accordance with the labour code.


PENSIONS OF RETIRED C.N.R. EMPLOYEES
Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many retired employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of pensions of less than $25 per month?
2.	How many are in receipt of a pension of $25 per month?
3. How many are in receipt of pensions of (a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month (b) $30 to $39.99 per month (c)	$40 to $49.99 per month (d)	$50 to
$59.99 per month (e) $60 to $69.99 per month (f) $70 to $79.99 per month (g)	$80 to $89.99 per
month (h) $90 to $99.99 per month (i) $100 to $124.99 per month (j) $125 to $149.99 per month (k) $150 to $199.99 per month (1) $200 per month and over?


Mr. J. A. Byrne (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport):: The management of Canadian National Railways advises as following:
1.	388.
2.	2,245.
3. Amount of pension:	Number:
$ 25.01	to $	; 29.99	68330.00	to	39.99	1,39240.00	to	49.99	1,12650.00	to	59.99	93360.00	to	69.99	82370.00	to	79.99	88480.00	to	89.99	90890.00	to	99.99	936100.00	to	124.99	2,487125.00	to	149.99	2,286150.00	to	199.99	3,579200.00	and	over	5,602
In a number of cases the amounts of pensions paid by Canadian National Railways do not represent the total pensions payable to employees for railway service. Pensions payable by the C.N.R. to international employees (service in both Canada and the United States) relate to their service in Canada only. Such employees also receive annuities payable under the United States railroad retirement act or the social service act for service performed in
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the United States. For example, in the group receiving pensions of under $25 from the C.N.R., there are 66 former international employees who also receive U.S. railroad retirement or social security annuities in respect of C.N.R. service rendered in the United States. The balance of this group consists of employees who elected early retirement before age 65, with reduced basic ($25) pensions, and employees who had very short service and small contributions.


DIRECTOR OF INDIAN AFFAIRS BRANCH
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Who is the Director of the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
2.	How long has he held the position?
3.	What are his academic qualifications?
4.	What is his previous experience in working with Indians either in the department or elsewhere?
5.	What are his duties and responsibilities and to whom does he report?


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development):: 1. Mr. John Wilfred Churchman acts as director.
2.	Since September 1, 1966.
3.	(a) Grade XII, province of Saskatchewan, teacher's certificate; (b) Six courses completed, University of Saskatchewan; (c) Management training course, University of Western Ontario.
4.	(1) Grew up next door to two reserves and had close associations with the Indian people, including participation in games such as soccer and baseball. (2) As a school teacher, taught Indian and Metis people in northern Saskatchewan, as well as a class in basic English and mathematics for adults. (3) As assistant deputy minister of the Saskatchewan natural resources department for four years, stationed at Prince Albert, was responsible for the administration of government programs in the northern areas where some 70 per cent of the population was of Indian origin. (4) As deputy minister of same department for 12 years was responsible for the development and administration of programs affecting the lives of Indian and Metis people of the province. This included direct participation in devising policy and drafting legislation such as the amendments to the northern administration act which, (a) introduced a program of financial assistance to all residents of the area to establish industrial and business

March 15, 1967
Questions
enterprises; (b) introduced an assistance program in housing; and (c) provided a measure of municipal autonomy to northern communities previously unorganized. (5) Was directly involved in the drafting and in the later negotiation with C.M.H.C. of the pilot project in housing to provide off-reserve housing for Indians and Metis in Saskatchewan. (6) Over past 30 years has visited many Indian and Metis communities. Has attended meetings and held discussions with many groups and individuals. (7) In 1950 introduced an action research study by anthropologist V. Valentine in a northern community which led to new programs and the introduction of the community development process among staff residents of northern Saskatchewan. (8) Personally attended seminars and discussion groups conducted by the center for community studies at the University of Saskatchewan for provincial government staff, Indian affairs staff and northern residents including a large number of Indian and Metis people. (9) Assisted in drafting the organization, structure and terms of reference for the Indian Metis branch established in Saskatchewan in 1964, which Premier Thatcher assigned to Mr. Churchman for administration. (10) Served on interdepartmental committee on people of Indian ancestry in Saskatchewan. (11) Chairman of the federal-provincial fur advisory committee in Saskatchewan for 12 years, charged with the administration of the joint fur program for Indian and non-Indian trappers in northern Saskatchewan. (12) Served as chairman of the federal-provincial committee on Indian and Metis friendship centres in Saskatchewan. (13) Chairman of the federal-provincial co-ordinating committee on people of Indian ancestry, Saskatchewan. (14) Chairman of interdepartmental committee on job opportunities and training for people of Indian ancestry, Saskatchewan. (15) director of development, Indian affairs branch; from June 1, 1965 to August 31, 1966.
5.	Mr. Churchman is responsible for the administration of the Indian affairs branch. He reports to the assistant deputy minister, Indian affairs.


CHIEF OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS DIVISION, INDIAN AFFAIRS
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	Who is the chief of the social programs division of the development directorate of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?
2.	How long has he held the position?
3.	What are his academic qualifications?

4.	What is his previous experience in working with Indians either in the department or elsewhere?
5.	What are his duties and responsibilities and to whom does he report?


Arthur Laing: 1. Mr. Arnold William Fraser.
2.	Since April 27, 1966.
3.	Academic qualifications, (a) St. Patrick's College, Ottawa, B.A.; (b) McGill University, M.A.; (c) University of Toronto, requirements completed toward D. Ed. degree except for thesis; (d) Ottawa Normal School, teacher's first class certificate.
4.	Mr. Fraser was community secretary of the Y.M.C.A. in Ottawa from 1938 until 1949, being responsible for community work. From 1949 to 1953 he was director of the High Park community Y.M.C.A. in Toronto where he collaborated in the publication of numerous pamphlets, documents and booklets on community organization and community approach. From 1953 to 1965 Mr. Fraser held the position of secretary for program and leadership of the World Alliance of Y.M.C.A.'s with headquarters in Geneva, Switzerland. During this time he had the responsibility for the development programs of youth and leadership in underdeveloped countries in Africa, Asia and South America. He was also a member of the executive of the standing committee of non-governmental organizations having consultative status with UNESCO.
Mr. Fraser travelled extensively to all continents. He visited over 80 countries where he had meetings and contacts with indigenous peoples. For example, he worked with the South American federation of Y.M.C.A. on the development of programs for Indians on that continent and consulted with the Mexican Y.M.C.A. along the same lines.
Mr. Fraser joined the Indian affairs branch in 1965 and while occupying headquarters position over a period of one year, he held numerous meetings and discussions with individual Indians, band councils, Indian associations and regional Indian advisory councils. He also conducted field trips to various Indian reserves throughout Canada.
5.	His duties and responsibilities are: to plan, develop and direct policies and procedures with respect to Indian welfare programs, community development operations and cultural affairs; to review the expenditure of funds related to the division's program; to analyse and evaluate the operations of the division in a national context; to negotiate and maintain liaison with senior officials in
March 15, 1967

public and private agencies on matters related to welfare and community development programs; to liaise and consult generally with senior officers of the branch on the division's program as it affects the operations of other sectors of Indian affairs operations. Mr. Fraser reports to the director of development.


CUSTOMS PORT, WEST POPLAR, SASK.
Mr. Watson (Assiniboia): 1.	What hours is the port of entry open at West Poplar, Saskatchewan?
2.	How many are on staff at West Poplar, Saskatchewan?
3.	How many foreign vehicles entered this port in each month in the years 1965 and 1966?
3.	Jan.	Feb.	Mar.	Apr.	May	June1965	39	20	33	64	155	2731966	49	67	109	117	223	3614.	Jan.	Feb.	Mar.	Apr.	May	June1965	96	86	150	127	227	2761966	136	111	183	204	267	2705. 1965, $13,941.11;	1966,	$2,547.05.	6.	Records respecting exportation of cattle are available for only the past three complete fiscal years and the current year: 1963-64, 99; 1964-65, 102; 1965-66, 573; 1966-67, 370 (to Dec. 31, 1966).


ORDER IN COUNCIL RESPECTING NAME OF COMMUNIST PARTY
Mr. Langlois (Megantic): 1.	Has there ever been an order in council to prohibit in Canada the use of the name "communist party" or any other order in council relating to this subject?
2.	If so, (a) when was this or these order or orders in council passed (b) were any specific reasons given for the passing of such order or orders in council at the time they were passed and, if so, what were these reasons?


Hon. John R. Matheson (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister):: 1. Yes.
2.	(a) Order in council P.C. 2363 of June 4, 1940, amending the defence of Canada regulations made pursuant to the War Measures Act and continued in force pursuant to the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, 1945, which regulations were revoked by order in council P.C. 1166 of March 31, 1947, effective April 1, 1947. (b) There were within Canada numerous organizations of a
Questions
4.	How many Canadian vehicles entered this port in each month in the years 1965 and 1966?
5.	How many dollars did the Canadian customs collect at this port in each of the years 1965 and 1966?
6.	How many cattle were exported through this port in each of the last five years?


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of National Revenue and President of the Treasury Board):: There is no port of entry officially known as West Poplar, Saskatchewan, and the following answers therefore refer to West Poplar river which is the designation of an outport under the port of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.
1.	Sept. 16 to May 31, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. June 1 to Sept. 16, 8 a.m. to 9 p.m.
2.	Two.
July	Aug.	Sept.	Oct.	Nov.	Dec.444	374	212	245	95	136601	293	350	248	147	17July	Aug.	Sept.	Oct.	Nov.	Dec.571	383	289	237	180	121709	460	501	266	185	60
subversive character which were intended, or were likely, to be prejudicial to the safety of the state or the efficient prosecution of the War; the Communist party of Canada was mentioned.


DEMURRAGE ON RAILWAY CARS, MONTREAL
Mr. Enns: Were demurrage charges assessed on railroad cars held up in Montreal dockyards during the strike of freight handlers and longshoremen last July?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The National Harbours Board advises as follows: No, there was no strike in July, but during the longshoremen's strike earlier in the year demurrage charges were assessed by the main railways.


DEMURRAGE CHARGES RESULTING FROM STRIKE
Mr. Enns: What is the total amount of demurrage charges assessed by the Canadian Car Demurrage Bureau on both railroads during the strike of freight handlers and longshoremen last July?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: No information available.

March 15, 1967
Questions


HARBOURS BOARD PENALTIES ON DELAYED RAILWAY CARS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 2,622
Mr. Enns:: 1.	Did the National Harbours Board apply penalties on cars delayed at delivery points because of the strike of freight handlers and longshoremen last July?
2.	Have representations been received by the government requesting the waiver of demurrage charges and other penalties resulting from the strike?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The National Harbours Board advises as follows: 1. There was no strike in July. Montreal harbour did not charge car penalty during the strike of longshoremen earlier in the year. Car penalties were assessed during the strike of railway freight handlers but due to a ruling by the Canadian car demurrage bureau that demurrage should not be charged, Montreal harbour car penalty charges assessed during the freight handlers strike are being waived and refunds made.
2. No.


NOVA SCOTIA GRANTS UNDER FITNESS ACT
Mr. Bower: What organizations in the counties of Digby, Yarmouth and Shelburne, Nova Scotia, have received grants under the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act since that act came into force, and for what purposes were these grants allocated?


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Naiional Health and Welfare):: No organizations in the counties of Digby, Yarmouth and Shelburne, Nova Scotia have received direct financial assistance from the federal government under the fitness and amateur sport program. However, the province of Nova Scotia under its fitness and amateur sport program has provided financial aid and supported projects carried out in these counties as shown in the attached summary. By agreement the federal government reimburses the province for 60 per cent of its expenditures on approved fitness and amateur sport projects up to a maximum allocation each year except in the case of undergraduate scholarships and bursaries, where the federal government pays 100 per cent of the awards made on the recommendation of the provincial government.
Summary of Financial Aid to the Counties of Yarmouth, Digby, Shelburne under the Fitness
and Amateur Sport Act
Undergraduate scholarships and bursaries	$5,450.00
Grants to municipalities:
	Argyle	$1,300.00	
	Clare	300.00	
	Yarmouth	1,445.72	3,045.72
Place	Association		
Digby	Atlantic division, Canadian Amateur		
	Ski Association		75.00
Yarmouth	Nova Scotia Black Belt Association		127.30
Yarmouth	Maritime division, Canadian Canoe		
	Association		289.01
Shelburne	Nova Scotia branch, Canadian Ladies		
	Golf Union		70.00
Yarmouth Digby	Nova Scotia Lawn Tennis Association	70.00Digby	Nova Scotia Hockey Referees Association	59.08Yarmouth	Nova Scotia branch, Amateur Athletic	Union of Canada, Gymnastics	100.00Department of Education, baseball clinic	125.00Lockeport	Department of Education, basketball	57.00clinic	$9,468.11

March 15, 1967


GENERAL CARGO TONNAGE, HALIFAX
Mr. McCleave: 1.	What has been the general cargo tonnage loaded and unloaded at Halifax each year since 1950, expressed as a percentage of the total tonnage of all types of cargo for that port?
2.	What has been the tonnage of general cargo loaded and unloaded at Halifax in each of those years?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: The National Harbours Board advises as follows: 1.
Year Loaded Unloaded Year Loaded Unloaded
1950 32%	16% 1959	11%	12%1951 36	16	1960	13	101952 33	12	1961	15	101953 29	12	1962	14	91954 40	12	1963	15	81955 28	11	1964	14	81956 17	12	1965	16	81957 16	11	1966	16	81958 13	11	2. Year	Loaded	Unloaded1950	464,090	356,8291951	565,942	363,2261952	654,555	296,8931953	545,652	287,8071954	647,036	277,7301955	810,088	310,5561956	623,240	373,7381957	570,100	371,7761958	461,365	376,2791959	483,763	481,9701960	515,447	399,7131961	611,616	395,1361962	609,701	355,6181963	630,779	325,6641964	715,979	385,5691965	812,529	372,0051966	722,803	401,626


MANUFACTURE OF DRUG LSD
[Stage Direction]
No. 2,659-Mr. Allard:
1.	Is the drug LSD manufactured in Canada and, if so, in what provinces and by what companies?
2.	Is the import of LSD authorized by the Canadian government and, if so, under what conditions?
3.	Is its manufacture and distribution authorized by the Canadian government?
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4.	Has the Department of National Health and Welfare made any studies or investigations to determine the harmful or other effects of LSD on the population in general and the young in particular?
5.	Has the Canadian government received any reports on the use of LSD in some Canadian universities?
Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. No.
2.	Yes, for sale by specified distributors, to approved institutions, for use by qualified investigators to study its hazards and efficacy.
3.	The manufacture of drugs in Canada does not require the authorization of the Department of National Health and Welfare. However, the manufacture of drugs for sale in Canada is controlled by the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations. The sale of LSD in Canada is strictly controlled under this legislation.
4.	No.
5.	Yes. The Department of National Health and Welfare has received reports on limited use of LSD in some Canadian universities.


PRINTING OF BOOKLET ON MAPLE SYRUP
Mr. Racine: With reference to the booklet published by the information division of the Department of Agriculture and bearing the category number A-73-1096F; maple syrup-sugar-butter-taffy (a) how many copies were printed in 1961 (b) how many copies were reprinted in 1964 (c) was this booklet distributed to different organizations throughout the country, i.e., hotels, restaurants, institutions, etc., or was it supplied upon request?


Mr. Bruce S. Beer (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is as follows: (a) In 1961 the quantities printed were as follows: English, 25,000; French, 15,000; (b) In 1964 the quantities printed were as follows: English, 10,000; French, 15,000; (c) This booklet was supplied on request only.


U.S. UNION OBJECTION TO APPEARANCE ON CENTENNIAL TELEVISION SHOW
Mr. McIntosh: 1. Was an invitation extended by telephone on February 8 by the C.B.C. to Mr. John M. Lucky of Saskatoon, to appear on a C.B.C. television show in Halifax representing Saskatchewan in a centennial series?

March 15, 1967
Questions
2. Was he informed on arrival in Halifax on February 15 that he would not be able to appear because of objections by the American Federation of Musicians, New York office and, if so, what form did these objections take, and why were they allowed by the C.B.C. to influence their decision with regard to a scheduled appearance on a C.B.C. television show?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: 1. On February 8 an invitation was extended to Mr. John M. Lucky of Saskatoon to appear as a guest on a Don Messer television program, not in a centennial series.
2. On February 13 the Halifax Musicians Association, local 571 of the American Federation of Musicians, informed Don Messer, a member of that association, that they objected to his appearing with this non-union performer. Their action was based on correspondence from the Saskatoon local of the A. F. of M. which expressed strong objections. When the C.B.C. was notified, it was too late to reach Mr. Lucky before his departure for Halifax. On his arrival he was informed that the A. F. of M. would not approve his appearance with the Don Messer orchestra and that he could not be used as a guest. The C.B.C. has a national contract with the A. F. of M. which respects the federation's jurisdiction in this matter.


FURTHER USE OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION OFFICES IN N.S.
Mr. MacEwan: 1.	Are the U.I.C. offices in Amherst, Nova Scotia, and Truro, Nova Scotia, being used by Canada pension plan officials on a once-a-week basis for servicing under the plan?
2.	Is assistance being given at the Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada pension plan office in the completion of the application forms for the new guaranteed income supplement?
3.	Will the government give consideration to using the New Glasgow U.I.C. office for Canada pension plan use on a part-time basis, and also for assistance to applicants applying for the new guaranteed income supplement?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Consideration is being given to establishing a Canada Pension Plan service outlet in New Glasgow. This would operate on a part time basis and would also provide assistance to persons applying for the new guaranteed income supplement.
[Mr. McIntosh.!


REQUEST FOR FERRY SERVICE, PORT HOOD, N.S.-P.E.I.
Mr. McQuaid: 1.	Has the government received a resolution approved by the municipal council of the municipality of the county of Inverness asking for a ferry service between Port Hood, Nova Scotia, and some point in Prince Edward Island?
2.	If so, is the government giving serious consideration to the inauguration of such a service in the near future?
3.	Has the government already conducted, or does it propose to conduct, a feasibility study on this proposed ferry service?
4.	If the study has already been conducted, what are the particulars and any conclusions which have been arrived at?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: 1. Yes.
2. Not at present.
3 and 4. A general review indicated that the costs of vessel and terminals and costs and conditions of the operation were unfavourable when balanced against probable benefits.


PAYMENTS TO MEMBERS OF TAXATION COMMISSION
Mr. Coates: 1.	What were the names of the commissioners appointed to the royal commission on taxation?
2.	What was the per diem honorarium paid to (a) the chairman (b) other members of the commission?
3.	What was the total honorarium paid to each member of the commission and, in each case, in respect of how many days?
4.	What was the method of determining expenses paid to (a) the chairman (b) other members of the commission?
(5) If expenses were paid on the basis of actual transportation plus a per diem living allowance, what was the per diem living allowance paid to (a) the chairman (b) other members of the commission?
6.	What was the total amount of expenses, other than transportation, paid to each member of the commission, and in each case, in respect of how many days?
7.	What would be the total amount of expenses, other than transportation, paid to each member of the commission, on a $25 per diem maximum for living expenses?


John Ross Matheson: Mr. Speaker, the answer to this question is rather lengthy and contains numerous figures. I would therefore ask permission of the house to print this answer in Hansard as though read.
March 15, 1987


Mr. Speaker:: Is there agreement to considering the answer as read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's note: Text of answer referred to above is as follows].
I am informed by the royal commission on taxation as follows: 1. K. LeM. Carter, chairman, A. Emile Beauvais, D. G. Grant, Mrs. S. M. Milne, J. H. Perry, Chas. E. S. Walls.
2. (a) $100 per diem, (b) $100 per diem.
Questions
K. LeM. Carter A. Emile Beauvais D. G. Grant Mrs. S. M. Milne J. H. Perry Chas. E. S. Walls
To February 28, 1967 $68,100-681 days 33,400-334 days 33,500-335 days 43,200-432 days 60,700-607 days 43,900-439 days
4.	(a) and (b) Transportation expenses plus $20 per diem to cover hotel accommodation and meals.
5.	Answered by part 4.
6.	K. LeM. Carter-Chairman
A. Emile Beauvais D. G. Grant Mrs. S. M. Milne J. H. Perry Chas. E. S. Walls
7.	$38,800.
* While residing in Ottawa.
$ 5,260-2044 days at $20-$4,090 117 days at $10- 1,170* 3,230-1614 days at $20 5,830-291 i days at $20 5,200-260 days at $20 4,040-202 days at $20 6,310-315J days at $20


$29,870 EASING OF IMMIGRATION PROCEDURES DURING CENTENNIAL
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Have procedures been eased in countries like Poland to encourage a greater flow of visitors to Canada for centennial and, if so (a) what is the nature of the changes in procedures, and (b) to what countries do they apply?
2.	Is a security bond of $1,000 required for every visitor from Poland and, if so, when was this requirement instituted?


Mr. J. C. Munro (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: 1. Some improvements in the normal procedures have been agreed upon by the departments concerned which will facilitate the processing of visitors during centennial year, (a) The nature of the changes involves the streamlining of administrative procedures and communications between offices in Canada and overseas in order to expedite processing of applications from visitors. Also, those persons travelling in transit through Canada to the United States who wish to visit Expo will be allowed to do so for a period of up to 48 hours without the necessity of obtaining a non-immigrant visa prior to their departure from abroad. Other possible improvements are being explored, (b) Poland; Czechoslovakia; Hungary; U.S.S.R.; Yugoslavia; Roumania; Bulgaria.
2. No. Security bonds are required only of those individuals seeking to enter Canada as visitors whose purpose in coming is doubtful.


PROTESTS RESPECTING LEVEL CROSSING, COTE ST. LUC, QUE.
Mr. Trudeau: 1.	When will a meeting of the board of transport commissioners be held to hear representations regarding the level crossing on Cote St. Luc road, where on the morning of February 11, 1967 a bus filled with children narrowly avoided collision with a C.P.R. train because the railway barrier did not descend, nor its lights operate to warn approaching traffic on the road of the train, and where four persons have already lost their lives?
2.	For what reasons has an overpass or underpass not been constructed on this thoroughfare?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Speaker, the board of transport commissioners advises as follows: 1. As indicated in the question, the board of transport commissioners scheduled a public hearing in this matter in the city of Cote S. Luc for February 27. However, at the request of the city of Montreal, also an interested party in the matter, the hearing was postponed as the city was unable to obtain the necessary records from its files for the hearing due to the strike of civil

March 15, 1967
Questions
employees. The board has now set April 10 for the postponed public hearing.
As to the incident mentioned in the question, the board will inquire into the matter and ascertain whether the facts were as so stated.
2. The cities of Montreal and Cote St. Luc are jointly interested in the project and each has its own proposal and they have not been able to agree.


LOANS TO EXHIBITIONS FOR MULTI-PURPOSE BUILDINGS
Mr. Pascoe: 1.	Did the Minister of Agriculture indicate recently that long-term government loans to exhibition companies for multi-purpose buildings will be made available in the near future?
2.	Will such loans be obtainable this year?


Bruce Silas Beer: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is in two parts. The answer to the first part of the question is no. The minister has indicated, however, that he hoped that legislation respecting long term government loans to exhibition corporations for multi-purpose buildings would be introduced in the house within a reasonable period.
The answer to the second part of the question is as follows. For any such loans, legislation would be required, and should the government reach a decision to introduce such legislation the decision will be announced in the usual manner.


REORGANIZATION OF PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT
Mr. Bell (Carlelon): 1.	Is a re-organization of the Department of Public Works in progress?
2.	If so (a) what, In detail, is (i) the objective (ii) the nature, of such re-organization (b) upon whose advice was it undertaken?
3.	If outside consultants have been used in advising upon the re-organization (a) what were the names of such persons (b) what amount was paid to them for their work?
4.	How many employees of the department are affected by such re-organization?
5.	Of the number mentioned in part 4, how many have been (a) promoted (b) demoted (c) red-circled at a lower level than their current classification (d) refused selection for positions in the new organization and assigned to occupy supernumerary positions?
6.	What is the departmental policy for relieving the classes of employees shown in the answer to part 5 (b), (c), and (d)?
[Mr. Byrne.1
7.	Of the employees promoted, how many are in the following salary ranges (a) under $5,000 per annum (b) between $5,000 and $10,000 per annum (c) between $10,000 and $15,000 per annum (d) over $51,000 per annum?
Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Minister of Public
Works): 1. Yes.
2.	(a) (i) The objective of the reorganization is to provide better and more efficient service to all government departments and agencies served by the Department of Public Works and to plan and carry out more effectively, public works projects which have increased substantially in numbers and scope since the department was last reorganized, (ii) The nature of the reorganization is, basically, to decentralize operations, including the implementation of approved departmental programs, to six regional offices across Canada; the determination of these programs will be maintained as a headquarters responsibility, (b) The reorganization was undertaken on the advice of departmental management, with treasury board approval, in order to be in a position to implement recommendations of the Glassco commission.
3.	(a) Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Co.; (b) $197,536.60.
4.	Until the reorganization is completed, it is not possible to state exactly the total number of employees who will be affected. There were approximately 8,500 continuing full time employees in the department on March 9, 1967. Of these, there are about 5,850 operating staffs whose functions will not be altered by the reorganization. Direct effects will be confined, almost entirely, to non-operating employees of whom there were about 2,650 on March 9, 1967.
5.	As a result of the reorganization up to March 9, 1967: (a) 111; (b) Nil; (c) 2; (d) Nil.
6.	Departmental policy covering employees who are or may be within the definitions contained in 5 (c) (d) is: Employees who, as a result of the reorganization, are placed in a position which is classified at a lower level than their current classification will retain this current classification level and where performance is satisfactory, will be allowed to proceed to the present salary maximum for that level in accordance with civil service pay regulations. These salary maxima will not be increased as a result of revisions arising from cyclical pay reviews. However, such employees will be eligible for further salary increases when the salary range for their position in the new organization has, as a
March 15, 19S7

result of economic revisions, exceeded this fixed salary maximum, or if their new position is reclassified to a higher level or if the employee is promoted to a higher level position.
Employees not selected for positions in the new organization who are occupying supernumerary positions will retain their current classification level and, where performance is satisfactory, will be allowed to proceed to the present salary maximum for that level in accordance with civil service pay regulations. These salary maxima will not be increased as a result of revisions arising from cyclical pay reviews. This supernumerary arrangement will be interim in nature pending the placement of affected employees in continuing positions in the new organization or elsewhere.
Present departmental policy precludes the demotion of any employee solely as a result of the current changes in the organization of the department.
7.	As a result of the reorganization up to March 9, 1967, departmental employees have been promoted in the following numbers: (a) Nil, the reorganization staffing program has not, as yet, reached positions at these levels; (b) eight; (c) 44; (d) 59.
The staffing program in groups (b), (c) and (d) have not been completed.


RETIREMENT FACILITIES FOR RETIRED PERSONS
Mr. Isabelle: Is it the intention of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to publish a list of resorts and retirement facilities in Canada for retired people?


Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Minister of Labour):: No. Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has no information on this subject.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
[Stage Direction]
Question 2,504-Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North
and Victoria):
1.	Since 1957, what amounts, in detail, have been loaned by the government or any of its agencies to the Dominion Steel and Coal Company or any of its subsidiaries?
2.	What balance is owing at the present time in regard to such loans?
Motions for Papers
3.	Since 1957, what amounts, in detail, have been provided as direct grants or subsidies to the Dominion Steel and Coal Company or any of its subsidiaries?
4.	Since 1957, what amounts have been paid annually in the form of subventions for the shipment of coal produced by the Dominion Steel and Coal Company of any of its subsidiaries?
Return tabled.

Mr. J. B. Stewart (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions for papers No. 72 and No. 199 are acceptable to the government.
Notices of motions No. 216 and No. 217 are acceptable subject to the usual reservation concerning the consent of the relevant provincial governments.
Would you please call notices of motions No. 191, No. 210 and No. 218. I ask that the remaining notices of motions be allowed to stand.


PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF TAXATION COMMISSION REPORT
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 72-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of any communications exchanged between the Carter royal commission on taxation and the Department of Finance, or the minister or any official thereof, with reference to officials of the Department of Finance seeing draft chapters of the commission's report prior to its being presented to the governor in council.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 191-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, or any official thereof and any other person, group or organization, excepting any other department or agency of the government, relating to the application of the Canada Labour (Standards) Code or the deferment or suspension of any part thereof.
Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, I have looked into the matter raised in this motion and am advised by the C.B.C. that the subject matter of this correspondence is related basically to the internal management and administration of the corporation, and thus in the view of the C.B.C. should not be made public.
If I might I should like to suggest to the house that the C.B.C., if it is to be able to

March 15, 1967
Motions for Papers
exercise the managerial responsibilities given it by statute, must be free to correspond with other broadcasters and its unions, as it has in this case, without being called upon to make such correspondence public.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I understand it is against the usual procedure of the house for the minister to make a lengthy statement at this time.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I would ask therefore that because production of such correspondence could be detrimental to the internal management and administration of the corporation, the hon. member agree to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: Mr. Speaker, this motion asks for correspondence relating to the enforcement of the law passed by this parliament, and it is considered by one of the unions involved not to be privileged information. Consequently I should like to see this law applied. This leaves us no other course but to have the motion put.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: May I ask that the motion be transferred for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


CORRESPONDENCE WITH WILLIAM GRUBER, TORONTO
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 199-Mr. Orlikow:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all correspondence received by the Minister of Finance, the superintendent of insurance, the superintendent of bankruptcy or officials in their departments, from William Gruber of Toronto, and replies sent by government officials to such letters, since January 1, 1964.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 210-Mrs. Maclnnis (Vancouver-
Kingsway):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence between the federal government, any crown corporations or federally sponsored organizations or agencies and the provincial government of Nova Scotia concerning the proposed project hitherto known as the southern route in Cape Breton island, between January 1910 and January 1960.
George James McIlraith: This motion refers to correspondence in the period between 1910 and 1960. The records and files for the period 1938 to 1960 are available to the personnel of the Department of Public Works, but the earlier

files are not. Subject to the usual reservation of obtaining the agreement of the provincial government, I am quite happy to have the correspondence produced and also subject to the limitation to which I have referred about not being able to get correspondence prior to 1938.


Mrs. Maclnnis (Vancouver-Kingsway):: I
think that will be quite satisfactory.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation referred to by the minister, is it agreeable that the motion do pass?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 216-Mr. Dinsdale:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all communications exchanged between the government of Manitoba and the Minister of Agriculture or the Canadian government with reference to the calling of a national conference on agricultural problems.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 217-Mr. Schreyer:
That an humble	address	be presented	to	HisExcellency praying	that he	will cause to	be	laid
before this house copies of all correspondence and relevant documents between the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba relative to the proposed establishment of a second national park in Manitoba.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 218-Mr. MacDonald (Prince):
That an humble	address	be presented	to	HisExcellency praying	that he	will cause to	be	laid
before this house copies of reports to the Department of Public Works by O. J. McCulloch, on the construction proposed for the Northumberland strait crossing and an analysis of same by the department, and also a copy of all communications exchanged between the Department of Public Works and O. J. McCulloch and all communications exchanged between the government of Canada and its departments and the government of Prince Edward Island and its departments relating to the proposed design of the Northumberland strait crossing.
George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, this motion refers to a copy of a report to the Department of Public Works by O. J. McCulloch, an analysis of same and to all communications between the department, Mr. McCulloch and the provincial government of Prince Edward Island. I
March 15. 1967	COMMONS
assume what the hon. member is referring is a copy of a commentary and revision thereof referred to in an answer I gave in the house on February 8 to question No. 2556. If this is so, there is no objection to the production of that material. The correspondence can be produced as well. The analyses of the commentary are intradepartmental matters and therefore cannot be produced in accordance with the usual practice. Subject to this qualification I am glad to have the motion pass.


Mr. MacDonald (Prince):: It is agreeable to me, provided that at some date fairly soon the minister or some representative of his department can give assurance to the people of Prince Edward Island that such report by Mr. McCulloch has not jeopardized the contemplated construction of the crossing.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation expressed by the minister, is it agreed that the motion shall pass?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: I rise on a question of privilege with reference to the standing of motions. I wonder if I might ask the parliamentary secretary, with respect to No. 215, when we may expect this motion to be brought forward. I may say I was given to understand informally that the motion would be allowed to stand for a week, but the information is urgently desired.


John B. Stewart: I will see if that information can be obtained soon.


Mr. Eric A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: May I
ask the Minister of Industry when I may expect an answer to my question No. 2,618 on the order paper. It has been there for a month, and I am sure this information is available to the minister. Or does he And the answer too embarrassing?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Industry):: I regret the delay very much, but the answer has been approved by me and is somewhere in the machine. I had hoped it would have been amongst the answers given today. The next day it is sure to be there.


Eric Alfred Winkler: The machine is all fouled up.


TRANSPORT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the
Inquiries of the Ministry Minister of Transport whether representations have been received from Mr. V. W. Scully, chairman of the board, and Mr. Griffith, president of the Steel Company of Canada, relating to the imposition of lockage fees on the Welland canal? The contention of these gentlemen is that this represents a discriminatory step against Ontario steel producers, since the Welland canal will be the only North American waterway to bear such charges. Since the result will be substantially to increase the cost of transporting raw material and will weaken the position of Canadian steel producers on lake Ontario, will the government reconsider this matter, difficult as that may be?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the factual question is concerned, the answer is that a telegram of the nature indicated by the right hon. gentleman has been received. I can assure him that this whole matter has received long, careful and indeed I might almost add agonizing consideration. It does not seem to me, having regard to the law as it now stands, that the government would be justified in reconsidering it.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister whether that is a final decision, or is it possible that his heart might be softened enough to provide for an agonizing reappraisal?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I do not think
any decision in this vale of tears is ever final. As the right hon. gentleman will recall, decisions were sometimes made in connection with the Welland canal without much consideration of any kind, and did not always lead to the results that were expected.


BRITISH COLUMBIA-FEDERAL CONTRIBUTION TO BURRARD INLET CROSSING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to direct a question to the Minister of Transport regarding the press release he has given out today, and the announcement being made in Vancouver by the Minister of Labour regarding a third crossing for Burrard Inlet. In that release it is stated that the federal government is prepared to make a capital contribution to the project which reflects obligations which are essentially national rather than local in character. May I ask the minister whether he can be more specific and inform those interested as
14028	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry to the percentage of the total cost the federal government would be prepared to contribute.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It seems to me that the question now asked by the hon. member is not of the type that can be asked now. The hon. member is asking for an additional statement, and perhaps this may be done on another occasion, on motions.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
I am asking the minister simply whether he will clarify his statement and if he can tell me the percentage of the total cost of this project that the federal government is prepared to contribute. That is the only answer I need.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps this particular question might be placed on the other paper.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker.
I Translation]


EXPO '67 POSSIBILITY OF ATTENDANCE WITHOUT REGARD TO FINANCIAL POSITION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Laprise (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I intended to put my question to the right hon. Prime Minister, but I shall put it instead to the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, the minister answerable to the house for Expo.
Has the minister received representations from certain organizations in Montreal intended to enable all who wish to visit Expo '67 to do so, regardless of their financial situation, that is to say that everyone will be able to visit Expo even if they cannot afford it?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I feel the question of the hon. member is far too general, and that it is therefore out of order at this time.


Gérard Laprise: Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker. [English]


INDUSTRY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Acting Prime Minister based on the statement by General Motors of Canada that they intend to discontinue the production of two of their models in Canada, the Acadian and the Chevy II, and import these models from the

DEBATES	March 15. 1967
United States. Has the government received any assurance from, or been given any undertaking by, General Motors Corporation, in keeping with the agreement, that there will be additional production in other lines in Canada for export to the United States to offset this decline in production at home?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I do not want to be particularly difficult, but it seems to me that the question asked by the hon. member for Medicine Hat is also of a general nature and I am wondering whether it can be asked at this time.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker, if I may make some representation to Your Honour about the urgency and importance of the matter, there appeared in the press yesterday and today a positive statement from General Motors that they are ceasing production in Canada of two of their very popular models. I think this house has the right to know whether the government has had an assurance, in keeping with the agreement, that this decline in that particular line of production is going to be offset by some other exports.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I hope I can give a general assurance, without entering into particulars, that the targets set for achievement by the motorcar companies by the end of model year 1968 will be achieved.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister assure the house that those models, to be made in the U.S.A., will be sold in Canada at the same price they are sold in the United States?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Unfortunately the hon. gentleman is referring to models the production of which is being discontinued.


RESEARCH
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister. Inasmuch as the HARP project for space research at McGill University has been rejected by the federal government, is the Acting Prime Minister aware that this project will be supported by external foreign aid, from another country?


Hon. Paul Martin (Acting Prime Minister):: I wish to take notice of that very interesting question.
March 15. 1967	COMMONS


Eric Alfred Winkler: Inasmuch as the minister says that he will take notice, will he re-assess the government's position in this matter?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I said I would take notice of the question.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the statement of the Minister of Industry the other day to the effect that the Chapman report was the basis upon which the government decided not to continue its financial contributions, could I ask the Acting Prime Minister, or the Minister of Industry, if it is not true that the Chapman report suggested that there is a place for the HARP project? Also, will not the government reconsider its position on that basis?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I said that the Chapman report formed the basis of ceasing government support for the HARP program. It might interest the hon. member to know that just about one year ago there was a long and I think fruitful discussion with the principal of McGill University and members of his staff regarding the future of HARP. Assurances were received from the university and the principal officers of this project that by June of 1967 the HARP program could be completely self-supporting, without further assistance from the government of Canada. On this basis it was agreed with McGill University that there would be no further support from the federal government for the HARP project, as such.
The federal government and its agencies would, however, continue to provide financial assistance to those particular aspects of the HARP program which were of interest to Canadian science and scientists. This undertaking, this readiness to support aspects of the HARP program which will be fruitful and useful to Canadian science is being and will be continued.


An hon. Member:: Good luck.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I regret to have to interrupt the hon. minister, but his answer is more in the nature of a statement, and cannot continue.


Eric Alfred Winkler: A supplementary question to the Minister of Industry, Mr. Speaker. Since the minister seems to know about this question, may I ask him whether he is aware that the additional aid will come from the external aid program of another country?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I think the hon. member is misinformed.


HOUSING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Heward Graffley (Brome-Missisquoi):: Mr. Speaker, referring to Canada's current housing shortage crisis the Minister of Labour said yesterday that the cross-country symposia and study group sessions have now been terminated, as is confirmed by press reports. In view of this I would ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the government is now considering announcing new housing measures to stimulate house building in time to affect spring housing starts. In other words are measures now being considered in time to affect new spring housing starts, to fulfil the demands of hundreds of thousands of Canadians now looking for a roof over their heads.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, at the appropriate time the government, through the Minister of Labour in charge of housing, will make an announcement showing that the government has been giving this and other matters having to do with housing active consideration.


William Heward Grafftey: A supplementary question. I asked whether the government is considering making an announcement which would affect spring housing starts. There is a certain degree of urgency here.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member's second question is substantially the same as his first question.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: My question is for the Acting Prime Minister in his capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am sure he will be glad to answer without looking pitifully to the Speaker for protection. I intend to use his own words, words the minister used in the other place this morning when speaking on external affairs.
14030	COMMONS
Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. Pickersgill: That question is out of order already.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am referring to a press release from the minister's office. I am sure he would want that widely circulated; I am giving it some publicity now. Will the minister answer this question in the same way that he answered it in the other place. When will the minister-and I now use his words, Mr. Speaker-"share with us in a preliminary way some of the considerations which have to be taken into account in our study of our foreign policy."


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, when I was in the other place this morning I thought of my hon. friend and of the desire which I know at one time he entertained-a desire to be in that place, which was frustrated for one reason or another. I should be glad of course to comply with requests of this house of parliament, as I complied this morning with a request of the other house of parliament.
VIET NAM-INQUIRY AS TO PRESENT POSITION On the orders of the day:


Mr. David Lewis (York South):: I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the continuing and increasingly disturbing escalation of the war in Viet Nam can the Secretary of State for External Affairs tell us whether any new steps are being taken by the international control commission, by any other agency, or by this government?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, Mr. Speaker. There are new efforts being made in several quarters. I am sure my hon. friend knows why it is not possible to go beyond that statement at this moment.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: My question is directed to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Last November the minister announced an increase of 15 per cent in the basic single rates of veterans pensions. At that time he indicated that he had a special group of his staff studying the dependants' rates. In reply to subsequent questions on this 
DEBATES	March 15, 1967
topic he has given evasive and delaying answers. Will the minister now inform the house-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member must be fair to other hon. members and put his question as quickly as possible.


John (Jack) McIntosh: Will the minister now inform the house if the overdue report can be expected before the end of the current session? If not, will he give us a progress report on the activities of his special group, so that we as members of this parliament can reply to the many veterans who are writing to us on this subject?


Hon. Roger Teillel (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had answered that kind of question quite clearly yesterday.


Mr. D. V. Pugh (Okanagan Boundary):: My
question is directed to the Minister for Veterans Affairs. When the veterans dependants are given the 15 per cent increase, will such increase be made retroactive to November, 1966, the date of the other 15 per cent raise?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: This of course will have to await a decision.



CANADIAN CONSTITUTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Allard (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Secretary of State for External Affairs in his capacity as Acting Prime Minister.
Before recommending the appointment of a new governor general, does the government intend to have the office of governor general studied by the committee of officials on constitutional reform, in view of Canada's political evolution?



TRANSPORTATION

[Stage Direction]
INQUIRY AS TO REPORT ON MARITIME STUDY On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. M. Forrestall (Halifax):: My question is for the Minister of Transport. I wonder if he can now shed some light for us on the
March 15, 1967	COMMONS
.special maritimes transportation study, particularly as this matter is now urgent, that a proper evaluation may be given to the Kauffeld report, one able proposal for the orderly development of Halifax harbour.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid, sir, that I am not in a position to shed any light.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. Russell MacEwan (Pictou):: I have a question for the Prime Minister which in his absence I shall direct to the Acting Prime Minister. Has the Acting Prime Minister received a telegram from the president of local 1231 of the United Steel Workers of America at the Hawker Siddeley Trenton plant, Nova Scotia, to the effect that the Department of National Defence is removing machines from the marine finish part of this industry and putting the heavy forge press, one of the largest in Canada, on the market for sale? If so, would the minister look into this matter with a view to permitting this machinery to remain in its present place so that employment in this plant may not be interfered with?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member has made a representation-


Howard Russell MacEwan: On a point of order, this is a designated area and there is no point in trying to bring new industry into the area if machinery is to be pulled out of the old.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister. May I say to him that he fills that role with a distinction and a verve seldom seen in this house. I would ask him whether in his new-found capacity and with his new authority he is in a position to make any pronouncement about straight base lines?


Paul Joseph James Martin: A date is approaching when I shall be able to say something more specific about the establishment of the co-ordinates and the straight base lines. We are now awaiting a formal
Inquiries of the Ministry reply to a note we sent the other day to the government of the United States. There have been some informal discussions in regard to the note and I believe that progress is being made. I know the hon. gentleman will welcome this information.


Frank Howard: Could the minister be more precise with regard to the date which he says is approaching, and tell us whether it will be this year or next year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am sure it will be well before the end of the next three months.



REQUEST FOR OPEN QUOTA ON DURUM WHEAT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. D. McLelland (Roselown-Biggar):: wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce who has responsibility for reporting to this house on behalf of the Canadian Wheat Board. Could the minister inform us whether the board is considering the re-establishment of the open quota for Durum wheat which was discontinued on February 28 of this year?


Hon. Robert Winters (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I will take this question as notice.



STATEMENT ON NEGOTIATIONS RESPECTING INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Henry Winters: May I take this opportunity to reply to a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale in connection with my conversations in Geneva last week, where I had meetings with the Canadian delegation to the GATT cereal negotiations which are being conducted as part of the Kennedy round. As hon. members are aware, the delegation includes producer advisers along with officials of the Canadian Wheat Board and the government departments concerned.
I also had discussions on this important subject in Germany and the United Kingdom where I gained the impression that there is growing acceptance of the need for an increase in the minimum price, as well as in the price range advanced by the exporting countries including, of course, Canada.
It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the details of these negotiations which are being conducted on a confidential
March 15, 1967

Inquiries of the Ministry basis. There are still difficult and complex questions to be resolved.
I can say, however, that progress has been made in recent weeks. It would be premature to forecast the possible outcome of these negotiations, but I am hopeful there will be a successful result. We are keeping very close to developments and doing all we can to advance them.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


John George Diefenbaker: Two seasons ago the wheat board cut the price of the farmers' wheat by some 17 cents a bushel, which lost the western farmers-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: I ask the minister whether consideration is now being given to restoring what was taken away from the western farmers by that action.


Robert Henry Winters: I am sure the right hon. gentleman shared the general satisfaction of all hon. members with the initial price and the final price for wheat paid to western farmers in respect of last year's crop, one of the highest on record in a year when many records were set.



SALE IN CANADA OF GOODS CONFISCATED IN CUBA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Henry Winters: May I also reply to a question asked on Monday by the hon. member for Gaspe about the sale of Cuban goods by auction.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. We have only 30 minutes today for questions and the hon. member for Gaspe is out of the house for the moment, so perhaps this answer might be given tomorrow.



EXPO '67 INQUIRY AS TO PUBLICITY IN UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lawrence Watson (Assiniboia):: I should like to address my question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who is in charge of Expo '67. I believe the Secretary of State would be interested in this question, too, but I see the hon. lady has left the chamber.
On Monday I had occasion to meet two Americans from the city of Chicago who felt that Canada-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member's question cannot be preceded by a narrative of any kind.


John Whitney Pickersgill: A reminiscence.


Lawrence E. Watson: Can the minister tell the house to what extent Expo, and the fact that it is being held in Canada's centennial year, is being advertised throughout the United States, as this would be a real source of tourist dollars for Canada?


Mr. Speaker:: I have the impression that this is not a question which can be asked at this time.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: wish to focus my attention on the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Health and Welfare-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -for the purpose of asking a question. It concerns both unions and management in Great Britain at this time. In view of the statement made by Professor E. J. Richards of Southampton University's institute of sound and vibration research that there is ample evidence that many a worker's hearing-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member knows that he has to ask a question, and that he cannot make a statement.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Very well, Mr. Speaker-that many a worker's hearing is permanently damaged by noise, would the hon. lady inform the house whether any research is being undertaken in Canada at the present time into damage done to the human body by noise?



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. L. Chatterton (Esquimali-Saanich):: My question is for the Minister of National Defence. In view of the general adverse reaction among the cadets at the tri-service college at Royal Roads toward the proposed green uniform, will the minister now abandon this idea?


An hon. Member:: Close the college.
March 15, 1967	COMMONS



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosthern):: I have a question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the marked increase in the import of eggs from other countries to Canada is the minister contemplating any inquiry into the situation?


Robert Henry Winters: I presume the hon. member is referring to the statistics shown in a return made a day or two ago which reflected a substantial net import of eggs into Canada. I was surprised at that, myself; I thought Canada was self-sufficient in this regard. I find that this is generally the case, but there were seasonal and other reasons for extraordinarily large imports last year. However, in relation to the total consumption of eggs in Canada the number imported was relatively small.


Edward Nasserden: Does the minister not think that a 250 per cent increase is worthy of consideration?


Mr. Speaker:: Order; the question is argumentative.



FRASER RIVER-REQUEST FOR STATEMENT ON POTENTIAL DANGER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. Has the minister received a recent report on the current flood potential of the lower Fraser river in British Columbia, and is he satisfied with the standards of the diking arrangements in that area?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, snow survey reports in the first part of this month indicate heavy snow conditions in the Fraser river basin. Whether or not this may result in high floods on the river in June will depend on the weather conditions which are experienced prior to that time. High snow supplies have been known to dissipate without causing damaging flood conditions. On the other hand, a low snow supply under certain conditions can result in serious flooding. At the moment I am told by my experts that it is too early to forecast the degree of flooding
Inquiries of the Ministry which may be experienced in the area in the early summer of 1967.
With respect to the second part of the question regarding diking conditions, I shall take it as notice and get further technical advice.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Alfred Dryden Hales: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence, based on a ruling Your Honour made earlier this day. Is it the intention of the minister to resubmit his estimates in their former or traditional form, and not on the assumption of unification?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday the form of the estimates is a reflection of the integrated commands which were authorized subsequent to the law passed by parliament in 1964. Particularly in view of the demand which has been made on the other side of the house during the last few weeks, that more precise information be given as to the roles and the missions of the Canadian Armed Forces, I would think that presenting the details of the estimates in a form which would give an accurate reflection of the expenditures being made for the various roles and missions would be welcomed by members on the other side of the house.


John George Diefenbaker: A completely false answer.


Alfred Dryden Hales: As a supplementary question, would the minister not then consider putting them forward in a manner that would enable us to compare them with former estimates of his department?



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Florian Cote (Nicolei-Yamaska):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has he received a request from the Catholic Farmers Union and some members of parliament to increase the price of milk to $5.10 per hundredweight -which price I find quite logical-and, if so, what action does the government intend to take?
March 15, 1967

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Speaker:: The very important question put by the hon. member has been asked several times in the last few days and the minister answered it.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: This question concerns a matter which should be given immediate consideration. As the Minister of Labour is not here, I direct it to the Acting Prime Minister. The Canadian Wire Service Guild has stated it will strike the United Press International of Canada on March 16 unless a collective agreement is reached. The government having been asked to conciliate in the dispute, so as to prevent a serious shut-down in essential services, will the Acting Prime Minister give immediate attention to the appointment of a conciliation officer so that this strike may not take place tomorrow? Such a strike could only be to the detriment of Canada.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will have this matter looked into at once.

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister asked a question a few moments ago-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Eric Alfred Winkler: What can you say to that one?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am asked what I could say. I will say what I could say to people who are on a dying ship, that surely this is the least I could do or say. However, before dealing with what I was going to say I should like to welcome back to this house, on behalf of all of us, the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) who has been ill for some time.


Some hon. Members:: .Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am now going to ask the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Labour if he would be kind enough to reply to the question with regard to the imminent strike situation.


Mr. B. S. Mackasey (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker,

a question was asked a few days ago, I think by the hon. member for New Westminster, and now by the Leader of the Opposition, about the possibility of appointing a conciliation officer to intervene in the proposed strike. I might point out to the Leader of the Opposition that a conciliation officer was appointed 13 months ago, and from there the matter went to a conciliation board last March. The conciliation board made a report last fall recommending only that negotiations continue. Obviously negotiations have failed to produce results, and the guild are only carrying out their legal right to strike.


John George Diefenbaker: So there will be no mistake about this, Mr. Speaker, the wire was sent at 2.05 today and received by me in the house. It states that the situation requires conciliation on the part of the government, and no statement such as the parliamentary secretary has given in any way meets the situation. It is just a case of procrastination in this matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The question period has expired, but perhaps the house would allow the hon. member for Danforth a question.


Mr. Reid Scoff (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to ask a question but perhaps you would permit me, on the point of kindness raised by the Acting Prime Minister, to say to my colleagues in all parts of the house how very good it is to be back and how very much I appreciated their inquiries, their kindness and their consideration while I was away.
It has been a very interesting experience to watch our parliament from afar for three months. The one thing it has convinced me of, Mr. Speaker, is that irrespective of the things that seem to divide us at times, the sort of common belief we have in the value of this institution and in the years of tradition for which it stands vastly transcends in importance the policies, programs and personalities that from time to time divide us. It is good to be back.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: Orders of the day.



REQUEST FOR ACCURATE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ASKED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
["I am pleased to rise again to speak on this question and have a new opportunity to deal with the present economic and banking system that we now have.\nAs far as I could, I attended almost all the sittings of the committee and I was as regular as I could. I know that the committee worked very hard; it did all it could to improve the economic and banking situation that we now know. But after all these sittings and after all the work that has been done, I consider that we are giving many more advantages to the banking and financial institutions than they had previously.\nSuch institutions already benefited from great advantages and great privileges and these are increased. I am not opposed to some citizens having great privileges, but I am sorry that some people are without any privileges at all or that they are deprived of their privileges to give them to those who already have many.\nWe should realize that our people have the right to live, that some are entitled to receive dividends, to have hidden reserves, or internal reserves of indiscreet reserves, call them as you will. There are other institutions which would also be entitled to various types of reserves, if we are to be equitable, if justice is to reign in the whole economic organization.\nAlmost all the advantages are being given to the large financial institutions in the country to the detriment of other institutions also entitled to the same advantages. We fight, we try not to give them any more advantages, but efforts are made to increase the privileges already enjoyed by the largest institutions.\nEvery time the wages of toil are increased, Mr. Chairman, every time the income from capital is increased, every time the overall cost of living is increased, the economic position of the people without income is weakened, as is that of the responsible citizens.\n[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)\nMr. Chairman, in order to appreciate how very important that warning is, it must be kept in mind that today, in 1966, Canada's population has reached 20,400,000 inhabitants, that over 7,400,000 citizens derive their income from their labour and their capital and that 12,600,000 Canadians have no income either through their labour or their capital,", "March 15, 1987\nBank Act\nbeing dependent upon individuals or society in general.\nTherefore, whenever the cost of living rises due to all those increases in salaries, labour or interests on capital, the situation of those 12,600,000 dependent citizens without any income derived from capital or labour deterio-ates accordingly.\nPerhaps at this stage I could give as an example children under 16 whose parents receive monthly family allowances of $6 and $8; that rate has not changed since 1944 and is no longer significant, being out of proportion with the cost of living in 1966.\nThe following table will prove my point. For instance, the gross national product which stood at $11,400 million in 1944-45, has reached $56 billion in 1966.\nI also wish to point out to the minister that capital investments which totalled $1,280 million in 1944-45, have reached $18 billion in 1966.\nI want to remind the house that bank assets have increased from $6 billion in 1944 to $26,500 million in 1966.\nOn the other hand, during the same period, the share capital of 800 large companies increased from $7 billion in 1944-45 to $102 billion in 1966; and cheques issued, from $60 billion in 1944-45 to $520 billion in 1966.\nThe M.P.'s indemnity was $4,000 in 1944-45; in 1966, it was $18,000.\nIn 1944-45, old age pensions were $20 a month while they are now $105.\nAs for family allowances, just a word about them in passing, they went from zero to $10 a month.\nThough every item was multiplied by four, or eight or more, family allowances for children under 10 and under 16 remained the same at $6 and $8 a month; that is the 1944 rate, and the people are now living in 1966.\nThis restatement of the situation constitutes a warning. Why continue to favour wage increases for the workers or higher interest and dividend rates for the capitalists and bankers, when it is always detrimental to the humble and courageous citizens, the fathers and mothers of families who accept, in spite of an unbearable economic situation to nurse the next generation of adults, of producers to whom the Canada of tomorrow will owe its survival and prosperity.\nAt the present time, Mr. Chairman, the government is placed before two acute and striking basic cases where it is called upon to use its authority to make a decisive choice,\n\nwhich it should have done long ago and can no longer be delayed, there being no reasonable cause or pretext to do so.\nThe Canadian government is the highest authority in the land, governing institutions, public bodies, pressure groups, intermediate bodies, the eight chartered banks, the 800 largest companies which speculate and make net profits of millions of dollars each year.\nOne Bank of Canada, eight chartered banks, 800 big companies under the direction of one or more directors of the eight chartered banks. Such is the world of high finance, the high economic management of Canada, which is the field of activities of Canada's great administrators.\nSuch are the agencies which are protected by Canada. The vote which just took place was in favour of these big institutions, and in other words against the people, which will again have to be content with their crumbs. But the people certainly have a right to their share. Unfortunately, however, those who speak for Canada here are much more representative of high finance than of the population of Canada.\nEither these people are responsible or they are not. Either they rule and plan the whole economic activity of Canada, or they are not concerned with it. The fact still remains that they are under the authority of the hon. Minister of Finance and Receiver General of Canada (Mr. Sharp), and under the authority of the governor general in council, that is, the governor general and all the 26 ministers. That is the highest authority in Canada, and those are the people to whom we should turn to ask for administrative reform and urgently needed changes. The highest authority in the land cannot remain anonymous and irresponsible for whole decades.\nThis government, this highest authority, this governor general in council is soon to allow fairly important increases in the revenue from work and capital. The 6 per cent ceiling on the interest rates on loans made by the eight chartered banks is to be abolished.\nEven if the governor in council and his 26 ministers want to hide behind the joint committees, the royal commissions or the economic councils in order to preserve the established and so-called democratic customs, the highest authority in Canada must still choose immediately between continuing to govern the country in the old-fashioned way and courageously instituting a new system which the people are waiting for and requesting patiently, confidently and with perseverance.\nMarch 15, 1967", u"Before raising interest rates and wages, it is necessay to adjust the purchasing power so that every dependent citizen who has no revenue either from work or from investments may be assured of the necessities of life.\nBefore allowing any increase in investment income or in salaries, our government must first adjust family allowances and all the other personal allowances of the Canadian people. Those who have no income, either from their capital or from their work, also have a right to live and to a measure of security.\nWhen the Bank of Canada was created in 1934, chartered banks lost the privilege they had to print their own bank-notes. In fact, they had to withdraw them from circulation at the rate of 10 per cent per year. Banknotes are now printed by the Bank of Canada which took that responsibility upon itself. We are also proud that our rulers have taken their responsibilities and created such a bank. That institution was supposed to render great services to the people, but it fulfils only half its duty. But the banks maintained their privilege of creating credit money when making loans or purchasing bonds, subject however, to certain legal restrictions, such as keeping reserves of at least 5 per cent of their deposits and respecting the then 7 per cent interest ceiling.\n[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)\nWith the 1944 revision of the Bank Act, the interest ceiling was lowered to 6 per cent and, furthermore, banks could not pay dividends higher than 8 per cent on their shares. They were permitted to continue making secret, tax-free, internal reserves which were undeclared to the shareholders, the public and the government in their annual reports.\nWhen the Bank Act, that is finance, was revised in 1954, the ceiling on the interest rate was maintained at 6 per cent, but the 8 per cent ceiling on bank shares was removed. Today, banks are paying dividends at a rate between 20 and 30 per cent. The Royal Bank is paying a quarterly dividend of 75 cents, or $3 per year for a $10 share. The Bank of Montreal, on the other hand, has been paying quarterly dividends of 55 cents, plus a special dividend of 17\xa3 cents, for a total of $2.37J for a $10 share, a yield of 23.75 per cent.\nWhen the government applies a ceiling on interest rates and dividends paid by the banks, it must be for sound reasons, for serious motives, and not on a sudden impulse.\nBank Act\nThe same thing applies to bank reserves where the 5 per cent rate was increased to 8 per cent; it is now suggested to lower it to 7 per cent. Of course, the effects of such changes, which may appear unimportant to the public or to the layman in matters of national economy and monetary science, are either good or bad-rather bad-when one first considers that the rights of citizens should take precedence over the rights of the wealthy, learned and powerful people governing and managing the big institutions of Canada.\nWhy, Mr. Chairman, has the 8 per cent ceiling on bank share dividends been lowered? Why lower today the 6 per cent ceiling on bank credit? I would appreciate it if the minister would answer those questions in due course or when he has an opportunity to do so.\nFor instance, when the Bank of Canada was created in 1934, its interest rate on treasury bills and on loans to chartered banks was set at 2 per cent. That rate remained unchanged from 1934 until 1956, or through a period of depression, a period of war and a period of prosperity.\nBut in 1956, the government ends its fiscal year with a big surplus following small annual surpluses. It was rather nice to see the federal government ending its operations with a surplus, because that does not happen very often, Mr. Chairman. Then, there was talk of inflation, unemployment and steps were taken to correct the deficit policy deemed better for the country's development.\nThe Bank of Canada started on its own behalf to manipulate the interest rates to follow the wonderful stability it had achieved, maintained and practiced since its creation 20 years before.\nThe Bank of Canada rate jumped from 1.5 per cent to 6.41 per cent the same year and the federal government bonds, following the famous conversion of war bonds worth $6,400 million, were renewed at 4 and 5 per cent interest instead of 2.5 and 3 per cent, which rates had been in force since the war.\nMr. Chairman, once again the poor people, the poor taxpayers paid for that and that was allowed to benefit the financial institutions.\nThat is where the decision of the Bank of Canada to remove the ceiling and its failure to mind its own business led us. The fact that it started to manipulate interest rates of all kinds enabled the highest financial institution to take over the control of a great number of", "March 15. 1967\nBusiness of the House\ngovernment bonds, to buy them back and to sell them again at a higher price.\nToday, governments, provinces and municipalities, large companies, school boards, religious corporations and parishes issue bonds at an interest rate of 7 per cent and even 8 per cent. Why such prohibitive rates on money, on capital?\nWhen will this staggering increase in the interest rate come to an end? Will someone attempt to stop it? Is it preferable to let the capital income continue to increase this way, when people do not have the basic requirements, when they lack adequate income, particularly the citizens that are too young, too ill or too old to earn their living?\nThis dangerous game must be ended, even if it benefits the part of the population that is well provided for, that has the knowledge, and that governs. The wealth, science and power of these gentlemen is not for themselves only, but for all the people that offer them their labour and their talent in order to get, in return, a better share of the wealth and income of Canada.\nThis is life in society: working for each other, not all for just a few who have wealth, talent, science and power. All these increases in interest and wages only pushes the cost of living higher, even for those citizens that have neither work nor capital. This is the painful aspect of the national economic situation.\nThe gap is getting wider between rich and poor between those with a surplus or a deficit, between those who accumulate capital and those who sink into debt. This is also true of all the governments, all levels of our economic activity. The interest rate is all-important in case of debts. To make you understand, let me draw the following picture. It will prove useful to understand our problem.\nSuppose we have to build a bridge in Montreal, in Winnipeg, or anywhere in Canada, and that it costs $20 million. We can borrow again $20 million from banking finance at a 5 per cent interest, for 40 years. We can borrow from the Bank of Canada $20 million without interest, repayable at 5 per cent of the amount, over 20 years, because the bridge is an unprofitable public utility, that has no possible revenue. Moreover, it was built with Canadian materials and by Canadian people. Only Canadians took part in the building of that bridge or that building, if you want to put it that way.\nThe Bank of Canada bonds bear a 5 per cent interest; the annual reimbursement, at 5 per cent, is $1 million; the 20 year interest is $20 million. Ten years from now, $10 million in interest; 20 years from now, with the present system, the interest will cost $20 million and 40 years from now, it will cost $40 million.\nMr. Chairman, may I point out that it is six\no'clock?", 'Process reported.\n[DOT] (6:00 p.m.)']
John (Jack) McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask
March 15, 1967

another question of the Acting Prime Minister, but seeing you have called orders of the day I rise on a point of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps it might be easier if the house agreed to let the hon. member ask his question.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John (Jack) McIntosh: Would the Acting Prime Minister use his good offices to see that we get accurate, and not misleading, replies to our questions such as that given to me this afternoon by the Minister of Veterans Affairs. His reply was that he had answered my question yesterday. I have looked at Hansard and I find he made no answer yesterday. In other words his answer to us is nothing. I think we have a right to expect more from the government front benches in the way of answers to our questions than that reply given by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. Orders of the day.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I wonder
whether there is any point in pursuing the matter. What the hon. member has expressed was not a question of privilege. Perhaps the minister wants to rise on a question of privilege and pursue the matter, and I would recognize him on that basis.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: This is certainly a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I did say that I replied yesterday, and I am sorry for that; but if the hon. member will look at page 13896 of Hansard he will see I replied then. That was on Monday afternoon, the day before yesterday.


Mr. Speaker:: Orders of the day.
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)



[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 14, consideration in committee of Bill C-190, to amend the Bank of Canada Act-Mr. Sharp-Mr. Batten in the chair.
The Chairman:: When the committee rose yesterday clause 11 had been allowed to stand while the other clauses of the bill had been agreed to.
Bank of Canada Act
On clause 11.


Mr. Laiulippe:: Mr. Chairman, I informed the house yesterday that we would have something more to say, particularly with regard to clause 11 of Bill No. C-190. This concerns the financing of municipalities, school boards and various public organizations under the control of or controlled by the Bank of Canada; this is the subject I should like to deal with briefly while introducing an amendment to clause 11.
Mr. Chairman, the bank should act as the financial agent of the Canadian government free of charge, and it should also act as banker or financial agent of the provincial governments and municipal corporations with regard to all aspects of the issue of long-term bonds to finance public buildings and various public works.
The aim of this amendment is to put the Bank of Canada in charge of financing provincial and municipal assets; to take public and social financing away from private sources; to give chartered banks complete economic freedom in the private sector, that is, with regard to individuals, families and private enterprise; above all to stop our provincial and municipal bonds from being financed by foreign countries, which is the main cause of the deficits in our international balance, mostly on account of the unnecessary interest rates which must be paid to foreign countries in addition to the money borrowed in long-term share capital; finally, the amendment aims to abolish unnecessary interest charged on the financing of the assets of our society, at all these different levels.
The provinces and the municipalities, Mr. Chairman, are actually extensions of the federal government in the administration of the nation and in the whole economic life of the Canadian people.
Provinces and municipalities are institutions as important in fact as the federal government, but at a divisional administrative level if you like, the same as the banking system which also has its operational unit at various administrative levels, as can be seen very clearly from the following outline I am going to give.
Mr. Chairman, there is a central bank and a central government; eight chartered banks-and we shall have more some time hence-and ten provincial governments; 5,700 bank branches and 4,000 municipal governments.

March 15, 1967
Bank of Canada Act
In my opinion, the importance of the municipal governments is thus emphasized, since there are 4,000 municipal governments right across Canada.
Since there are three banking administrative levels and, therefore, three taxation levels: federal, provincial and municipal, there are, of course, three levels of public financing: national, provincial and municipal. And, there too, the whole business must be controlled by one head, with a unified thinking, at the three administrative levels: federal, provincial and municipal.
If we do that, Mr. Chairman, we will eliminate all international financing for our provincial, municipal and private needs. Our financial system can and must meet all its financial and monetary needs, as our economic system can satisfy its production, its capitalization, its consumption, by the use of our natural resources, our manpower, our competent technicians and our graduate engineers, having had experience in the various levels of our economy.
If we do that, Mr. Chairman, we will no longer have international deficits, brought about by a surplus of wasteful interests paid to foreign countries on bonds which we have the duty and the power to create ourselves instead of leaving it to other countries, by offering for that purpose the same guarantees, that is our natural resources, our manpower and our capacity to pay taxes.
If we were to do this, our Canadian dollar would not fall to 92 cents but would remain stable at 100 cents on the dollar. We would no longer have to bear the shame and humiliation and the financial burden of a 7 or 8 per cent discount on our national currency outside our own country.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the Bank of Canada has a great role to play. If only our ministers and our representatives of the people had the courage to do this.
The only thing involved is a simple gesture. If we had in parliament a majority of members in favour of managing the country according to scientific and honest methods, in accordance with the facts, we could correct many a deficiency in our economic system and consequently, render an outstanding service to our population. Our economic system has many deficiencies. There is great uneasiness in the field of finance.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
The main factor, in finance, is the Bank of Canada. That is as it should be, and it is under its aegis that the whole Canadian
[Mr. Latulippe.l
economy should be given an impetus, come to life and grow.
If the bank is mismanaged, if the flaws preventing the bank from performing its true function are not removed, if regulations found to be unsatisfactory, as far as the people are concerned, are not amended, we, as the representatives of the people, are remiss in our duty. In order to provide the necessary services to the people, all that need to be done is to pass the kind of amendment I am now suggesting, so that all public bodies may be given the necessary impetus to improve the Canadian economy and to finance school boards and municipalities without interest.
School boards, municipalities and all public bodies which would be financed by the Bank of Canada would pay their debts, this would give a certain amount of confidence to the nation, and the nation as a whole would benefit therefrom.
Thanks to that system, the Minister of Finance, the provinces, school boards or municipalities would no longer have to sell bonds to the people, draining the economic blood of the nation, in order to enable the citizens and private enterprise to develop.
Mr. Chairman, that is how private enterprise is kept from developing, for public enterprise does nothing but create debt and deprive private enterprise of the money it should have to grow and progress.
If the Bank of Canada were used to put in circulation the capital needed to finance all the public sector, there would be enough left in the chartered banks to finance private enterprise and then, there would be capital to develop our natural resources, to control our trade and industry and foreigners would no longer be allowed to control our credit.
It is about that same credit that the Minister of Finance is asked to do something. The real credit of the country must not benefit only the foreign countries which will invest capital in Canada. It must also be good for the Bank of Canada which will use the same guarantees to issue the credit needed, without interest, to finance part of the country's public assets.
Then, Mr. Chairman, new industries would spring up in Canada, the private sector would expand in all directions, new factory owners would appear, and new factories, the unemployment rate would fall, because the Canadian government would then take steps which would greatly help the Canadian people by enabling them to live, to grow, to prosper and to develop more in all fields as well as intellectually, physically and morally,
March 15. 1967

At the financial level, we could become Canadians again, we could again own our industries, our land and we could live like Canadians, as owners of our own home and not as indebted or evicted tenants, something that happens every day.
Not later than yesterday a Montreal newspaper reported that families were evicted because they could not afford to pay their rent and they were told: You are on your own, shift for yourselves.
Such things will practically never happen any more, because people will have enough to live on and develop. School boards and municipalities will no longer sell properties or seize personal assets in order to pay school and municipal taxes. This will not happen again. And municipalities and school boards will no longer have to pay four or five times the cost of their schools and municipal works.
The Bank of Canada would be repaid for the loans and advances granted, without interest, out of public funds, over a depreciation period or on the basis of 2, 3 or 5 per cent per year, until the debt is paid off.
After the new credits issued by the Bank of Canada have been repaid, they would no longer be in circulation.
So much for the argument about inflation put forward by everyone. Everybody tries to prove that what we are advocating would create inflation. On the contrary, it would bring about complete stability. Inflation or deflation would no longer exist. As a matter of fact, there would be even less inflation and surely no deflation. The problem would be solved.
It would therefore benefit the whole country and all the Canadian people, and the government which wants to remain in power would do so, because we would be the first to support it, to join it, to praise it and to say it has accomplished something worthwhile for the nation.
I have already said that we are not seeking power, but reforms. Now, by bringing in reforms, you will remain in power. We do not need power. We want reforms. But if you will not bring in the pressing social reforms we need, you will then have the advantage of always keeping us with you, because thousands of Canadian citizens have sworn to combat poverty and to denounce you and the system you favour, unless you bring about the desired changes. Now, I move my amendment.
Bank of Canada Act


Herman Maxwell Batten: It is moved by the hon. member for Compton-Frontenac:
That clause 11 of an act to amend the Bank of Canada Act be amended by adding at the end of subsection (1) of section 20 of the main act as enacted by the said clause 11, the following:
"and to act as a banker or as financial agent of the provincial governments and of municipal corporations in respect to long term bond issues for the purpose of financing public buildings and public works, the same without interest."


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Mr. Sharp:: Mr. Chairman, may I reply to this proposal by reading two short quotations from the report of the royal commission on banking and finance. The first is to be found at page 556, where the following appears:
However, the same section of the act enables the bank to act as banker or fiscal agent to the government of any province by agreement. While never used in practice, we believe it should be removed since the bank could not run an effective national monetary policy if it were to be continually under the obligation to put out new issues for the provinces, at least without conflicting with its fiscal responsibilities to its provincial clients. Adequate fiscal and banking advice is available elsewhere, and the embarrassment which would result from the central bank vetoing an unsound provincial financial program rises all too readily to the imagination.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)
The second quotation, which is more specifically on the point put forward in the amendment of the hon. member, is from page 71 of the report. It reads as follows:
We also received a proposal that the Bank of Canada should finance the social capital requirements of the provinces and municipalities either directly or through re-discount facilities, a proposal which would involve major changes in that institution's operating practices and have profound consequences on its ability to promote national objectives. Financing on the scale envisaged could only be supplied by the central bank if price stability were sacrificed, and even on a smaller scale would subject the central bank to intolerable pressures from eleven competing governments. For the latter reason also, we do not believe it necessary or desirable for the central bank to act as an underwriter to these governments, especially in view of the full facilities available in the private sector.
I do not think I need add anything more, Mr. Chairman. These reasons accord also with the reasons which the government had for amending the act, as appearing in clause 11.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Is the committee ready for the question?
Amendment (Mr. Latulippe) negatived:
yeas, 8; nays, 71.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Chairman, I move that clause 11 be deleted completely. The only
14038	COMMONS
Income Tax Amendment change that it contains is a change to section 20 of the Bank Act which removes the possibility of the Bank of Canada acting as a banker or financial agent for the government of any province. It is our contention that the Bank of Canada already has partial authority under this portion of the act to do what we have advocated for a long time, that is to set up a municipal development bank which would be administered by the Bank of Canada, with the co-operation of the provincial governments. Of course we have not been very successful until now in convincing the Minister of Finance or any previous minister of finance to go ahead and make such provision in the operation of the Bank of Canada. However, in my view this amendment would remove one of the authorizations which would be required for the Bank of Canada to do this at some time in the future. Therefore, without going into detailed explanations of all the benefits which would flow from the establishment of a municipal development bank I will simply move that clause 11 be deleted.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Chairman, to ensure that the attitude of the government is quite clear let me say that we believe it is not desirable to continue the present section in operation without amendment for the reasons that I have quoted from the royal commission report. I believe that the continuation of these powers to enable the Bank of Canada to act as the fiscal agent for the provinces is leading to misunderstanding and ambiguity and could at some time in the future interfere with the effective operation of our monetary policy.


Herman Maxwell Batten: The hon. member for
Medicine Hat moved that clause 11 be deleted. If this amendment were carried it would have exactly the same effect as if the committee were to vote against the clause. I would therefore interpret the amendment moved by the hon. member for Medicine Hat as an expanded negative and as such I consider it to be out of order.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: If it is out of order on that ground, Mr. Chairman, I will ask for a standing vote on clause 11.
Clause 11 agreed to: yeas, 66; nays, 7.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the bill be read the third time?


Some hon. Members:: By leave, now.


Reid Scott: At the next sitting of the house.
r.Mr. Olson.]

March 15, 1967
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)


Mitchell William Sharp: the third reading of the bill.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I should like to have it noted that this bill is read a third time on division.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


INCOME TAX AMENDMENT
Mitchell William Sharp: the third reading of Bill No. C-259, to amend the Income Tax Act and to repeal the Canadian Vessel Construction Assistance Act.


Mr. Monteith:: Could we have the yeas, and nays, Mr. Speaker?


Mr. Speaker:: All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Contrary minded, please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the motion carried.


Mr. Fulion:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the Minister of Labour. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Digby-Annapo-lis-Kings.


Mr. Fairweather:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired
with the hon. member for Charlotte.


Mr. Skoreyko:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Victoria (B.C.). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. More:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired.


Mr. Ballard:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


BANK ACT
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. C-222, respecting banks and banking-Mr. Sharp- Mr. Batten in the chair.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. This bill was reprinted as amended by the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs. I understand that the reprinted bill has been distributed to members of the committee.
On clause 2-Definitions.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Chairman, we are now in
what I hope are the final stages of the long legislative history of this bill to amend the Bank Act, a history which began when my colleague, the senior Minister without Portfolio, introduced a bill in the 1965 session, and perhaps the greatest compliment I can pay to him at this time is to say that the essential principles that he laid down in that bill have been retained.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Chairman, I rise mainly for the purpose of congratulating the members of

March 15, 1967
Bank Act
the house committee on finance, trade and economic affairs lor the thorough review they gave of the bill now before us, and I include in those congratulations all members of the committee. I had the pleasure of appearing before the committee on a number of occasions and I came to admire very greatly the considerable expertise that was developed by members of the committee on all sides during the long and thorough discussions they had on the provisions of the bill.
That committee made many headlines, something which is not customary for all committees of the house. Its members had before them some very notable citizens of the United States as well as of Canada, but I suggest the chief claim to fame of the committee is that it has produced many useful improvements to the bill, and at this time I would like to recognize what a great contribution the standing committee has made. It serves, I believe, as an example of the effective kind of work that can be done by parliamentary committees.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, I join with the minister in congratulating the members of the standing committee who worked very diligently on this bill. The hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands, myself, and possibly one other hon. member attended the 1954 sittings of the committee which I believe, at that time, was called the banking and commerce committee. I was a very new member of that committee and I am pleased to say I found its work very interesting, possibly because I knew something about the subject matter it was considering.
For some days we have been expecting this bill to come before us. Just a few moments ago the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands and I were talking outside in the lobby and we said that if we had to wait much longer for its appearance we did not know what might happen to it.
The minister has referred to the long legislative history of the bill. Today, March 15, 1967, we are approaching the final stage of our study of the amendments to the Bank Act. This study should have been completed in 1964. For some three years the banking community has been working under the handicap of uncertainty and I blame indecision and confusion by the government for the delay.
We have had to extend the existing act several times, and we are now approaching another deadline, April 1. All this underlines the weak leadership which the government has given the people of Canada.

[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
Three separate events during the last few days have been causing worry and despair to Canadians generally. Let me first of all refer to the suggestion by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development that Canada take steps to control its rising wages and prices. We have all heard the warnings of the governor of the Bank of Canada, and seen these in his annual report. The editorial which appears in today's Montreal Gazette should be read by all members of the government.
The astronomical estimates of government spending for the fiscal year 1967-68 were tabled on Monday last, and they present cause for worry on the part of every Canadian. I do not intend to deal with those estimates at this time, because an opportunity to do so will present itself later, but I should like to emphasize that this government has no respect whatsoever for the taxpayer's dollar.
The committee on finance, trade and economic affairs commenced its study of Bill C-222 on October 25, 1966 and completed that study on February 28, 1967. It held some 79 meetings. Twenty seven briefs were presented and 57 representatives of some 30 organizations were heard. The minister appeared before the committee, at length, as well as the inspector general of banks and the governor of the Bank of Canada. Taking everything into consideration I think the meetings of this committee were worth while.
Some 71 amendments were proposed to Bills C-222 and C-223. The Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence of that committee make very interesting reading. The committee worked assiduously over long hours as a result of which the bill reported back to the house is an improvement over the bill referred to the committee.
There are still some shortcomings, one of which is the lack of the definition of "banking". The bill refers to banks as being those institutions listed in the schedule. This situation was discussed at great length with many witnesses, some of whom made certain suggestions. I must admit, however, that most witnesses did not feel competent to make a firm definition, although some of them did so. There were several members on that committee who are lawyers and I imagine that later in this debate they will have more to say about this lack of a definition of "banking".
Bill C-222 does adopt some recommendations of the Porter commission report but it does not adopt all of them. It has not adopted
March 15, 1967

the recommendations that near banks be brought under federal legislation. I believe this is a mistake. The minister indicated he was in agreement with the suggestion that, under certain conditions, agencies of foreign banks should be allowed to operate in Canada and, as he put it, he wanted time to study this aspect further. Perhaps that is another delaying action in respect of this very important matter relating to the operation of foreign banks in Canada. This important matter should not have been left up in the air as it is now.
Regardless of the evidence we heard to the effect that as long as a borrower agreed to an effective interest rate higher than 6 per cent, which is presently the ceiling in vogue, such an interest rate was legal, and in spite of the legal rulings we have heard, I have always had some doubt about the legality of charging an effective interest rate of more than 6 per cent, as has been the case in respect of consumer loans.
In 1954 the then Canadian Bank of Commerce was the only bank engaged in the consumer loans field. Representatives of that bank gave evidence to a committee at that time to the effect that it had received legal opinions which indicated the bank was within its rights to charge higher interest rates. At that time none of the other banks had seen fit to enter this field and, if my recollection is correct, they did not do so primarily because they felt it was illegal. Since then the act has not been changed, yet all of the banks are now operating in this field, making loans at an effective rate higher than the 6 per cent ceiling. I have had some personal doubt about the legality of this practice.
Regulations under the new act will stipulate that all charges in future must be shown as a percentage of the loan. I think the minister has agreed that these regulations should be studied by the committee before coming into force. I am in agreement with his suggestion that this is the proper thing to do.
At this time I do not intend to say anything concerning clause 75 of the bill in respect of the Mercantile Bank. There have been rumours and news stories concerning cabinet rifts and differences of opinion between the present and previous ministers of finance in this regard. I assume we will have to wait until we reach consideration of this clause to find out whether or not the present minister will make some further proposals.
It is not my intention to say very much about a higher interest ceiling or the removal
Bank Act
of the ceiling. We will have ample opportunity to talk about that when we reach a consideration of the specific clauses. Let me point out at this time that the maximum of 6 per cent has become the minimum. I have some apprehension in this regard when I think of the possible increase in that ceiling. An increase from 6 per cent to 7i per cent will mean an increase of approximately 20 per cent. This will only result in a further stimulus to the high cost of living, about which this government has done so little. We will no doubt hear a great deal about this matter of interest rates before we conclude our consideration of Bill C-222.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)
There are many other aspects to this bill and I am sure other members will discuss them in a general way when we reach certain clauses. No doubt a more detailed study will be made. Let me simply say at this time that hon. members would be well advised to study the recommendations of the twenty second report of the committee. There is a paragraph concerning agencies, and another recommendation to the effect that the Canadian Bankers Association Act be amended to permit those financial institutions who presently have access to the clearing system only through the intermediary of a chartered bank to participate directly in the system on an equitable basis. Then there are three recommendations concerning I suppose you might say housekeeping items, supporting services in not only the standing committee on finance, trade and economic affairs but other standing committees. I believe that these recommendations should be given serious consideration.
I think that is all I wish to say at this moment, Mr. Chairman. I know the minister has been anxious to get at this committee of the whole house stage. We are now at it, and I am hoping that as we continue and question the minister on the clauses of the bill he will be in a position to give us, and will be happy to give us every possible explanation.


Mr. Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Chairman, as the minister has said, this is, we hope, the tail end of a very long and arduous journey. At the outset, sir, I should like to make one comment which I think should be made. If, as the minister has said, this has been as unusually effective committee, I think it is in no small measure due to the capacity of the chairman, and I should like at this time to record my very deep

March 15, 1967
Bank Act
appreciation of the manner in which the hon. member for Essex West performed his functions as chairman.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Colin Cameron: He performed them with, I may say, unending patience in circumstances which often would have tried the patience of a Job, with unfailing courtesy, and always in complete control of the proceedings and with a complete understanding of how far we had got. I think this house owes the hon. member quite a debt of gratitude for the long and arduous task which he undertook. There were 79 meetings on the Bank Act, and if you contemplate 79 two-hour meetings, Mr. Chairman, you can understand that it was quite an ordeal.
As the hon. member for Perth remarked, I think he and I are the only survivors-it makes us sound rather like relics-from the previous revision of the Bank Act, now 13 years ago. I have been impressed, not so much with the changes in banking technique, developments of monetary policy and monetary theory, as with the change of attitude on the part of the committee, and I think of the general public, toward banks. After all, there has been no essential change in the business of collecting people's savings and lending them out since the days when the Lombard goldsmiths discovered that only a few of the people whose gold they guarded came along on the same day, and they could lend the rest of it at usury.
The process is much the same today. We have perhaps instituted a more polite word for usury; we now use the word "interest", and governments instead of goldsmiths provide the basis upon which loans are made. But the business of money lending is much the same as it has always been. However, the attitude of the public toward money lending and money lenders has gone through a number of changes, and after being for a while considered a rather dubious class of people who performed their functions furtively in back alleys they suddenly blossomed out into being almost high priests installed in massive marble temples and conducting mysterious rites that were beyond the comprehension of the ordinary citizens.
It was thought that any prying into these mysterious rites was, of course, bound to bring down divine wrath on all. Even 12 years ago there were still traces of this attitude. I remember that it arose over the matter of the inner reserves, which everybody

often referred to as hidden reserves at that time, increasing still more the air of mysterious sanctity over banking operations. This time I think the committee and the banking fraternity almost took the matter in their stride. There were some squeaks of annoyance from the bankers that they would now have to reveal the amounts of their inner reserves to the whole world rather than to the private ear of the minister. It became evident that the real change was not in respect of any fear of the stability of the banks in the mind of the public, but that this system might reveal some slips in judgment on the part of those who look after the affairs of the banks; they did not like to have these revealed to their opposite numbers in the banks. In fact, as one bank official told me, it was a case that he did not want his mistakes to be made public. I suggested to him that we were not there in order to legislate to protect his vanity.
However, they took it in their stride, and it may be that the banks today recognize that the decline in the religious field, about which there is so much lamentation, has extended almost to their sacred mysteries too. It may also be as a result of the change in the economy, and technology, that we now have changed our attitude toward our banking institutions from regarding them as a sort of sacred mystery to being merely a piece of economic machinery; a complex one, but one which can be understood if one wants to lend his mind to it. I think this was the approach of the committee this year.
Our approach was, how well do the banks perform their functions? We were not particularly concerned this time with the question of whether the banks were safe and stable. No one had any doubts about that. We were not particularly concerned with the prices they charged for their services. Most of us have the conviction that they charge too much and should be clipped back, if we can do so. We were more concerned about finding out whether they were efficiently performing their functions. One of the witnesses, a former bank official, advised the committee not to waste its time trying to decide whether the banks were good guys or bad guys, but to remember that they were merely good businessmen out to earn a dollar and we should concern ourselves with whether or not they were performing their functions effectively.
I think it is fair to say that any doubts left in the minds of the committee about banks were perhaps some doubts as to whether they are imaginative and enterprising enough in
March 15, 1967

performing their functions, whether they discriminate and play favourites between customers. There was no way of tracking this down, and there can be no way of tracking it down. One witness who came before us to make a pitch for a foreign bank suggested that the foreign bank should be here because we really required in our banking system the modern and up to date expertise of American banks. I had a little entertainment with that witness. I brought him to the point twice of virtually saying that our local banking community was incompetent and not equipped to handle Canada's growing role in the world. Of course he hastily retreated from that position when I brought it to his attention, but not before he had caused a certain fluttering among the audience, which was composed largely of bankers at that time.
The consideration of the committee was, is it an efficient institution in our society, is it enterprising enough, is it imaginative enough, is it behaving in a non-discriminatory manner? The other matters of concern were questions of the charges, and there was a great deal of thought in connection with the removal of the 6 per cent ceiling. I must say that I myself went through a whole process of thinking on this question and had to change many of my positions in light of further thinking, further reading and further evidence.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
I came to the conclusion that there was not too much to be said for the maintenance of the 6 per cent ceiling because it could be evaded so easily and because there seemed to be a fair amount of evidence, to the extent that it was not evaded, that the 6 per cent ceiling was giving rise to the growth of near banks and various financial institutions which have been causing cold shivers to run up and down our national spine, for some time.
The government, the minister, and I think most of the committee members except myself and my colleague, felt that we could rely on competition to prevent the banks from making exorbitant charges when the ceiling was taken off. Competition is all well and good but I have some doubts as to whether we will achieve effective competition by the incorporation of more private banks, because I have a lurking suspicion that once a private bank gets into operation it will become very quickly part of the club and part of the establishment and the element of competition will be very severely reduced. This was my reason for making a proposal to the minister in the 23033-888
Bank Act
committee which I felt would solve two problems for him.
I proposed to the minister that in order to solve the vexing question of the Mercantile Bank and its effect on our relations with the United States, the government of Canada should consider buying out the interests of the First National City Bank of New York in that bank. This would solve that problem and also the problem of some countervailing force to control the operations of the private and chartered banks when they are relieved of the 6 per cent ceiling.
When I announced this idea to the minister I stressed the fact-and I think he took my word for this-that I was not advancing this from a purely doctrinaire position but that it was a very practical point of view and a practical solution to two problems. I think the minister accepted it seriously on that basis and I have no complaints on that score. However, when he rejected the idea, he did so not on any consideration of the practical aspects of the suggestion but purely, as I told him at the time, from a doctrinaire position of laissez-faire, on the grounds that this government does not believe in a publicly owned bank. There were no practical considerations.
I submit that this is a decision based on religious faith rather than on earthy, practical considerations, and of course it is very hard to deal with decisions that are based on religious faith. One has to be very careful about that. However, it seemed to me that that is what it was. My ideas on this score were confirmed when I saw in the bill that is now before us one clause, which I hope to amend before we get through, which led me to think that the minister decided that not only did this government not approve of a publicly owned bank but he wanted to make quite sure that none of his successors would go chasing after false gods. So he has inserted in the bill a clause which will prohibit the government of Canada from investing in a bank. As I said, I am hoping to get that decision reversed by the committee before we get through.
The idea that I have been presenting is not a particularly revolutionary one. I do not think most of us would consider that our Commonwealth cousins in Australia and New Zealand are of a particularly wild and revolutionary temperament, and I am quite sure that President de Gaulle of France would resent it very much if anyone suggested he was presiding over a communist state because the four largest banks in France are publicly owned.

March 15, 1967
Bank Act


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. gentleman a question? I am wondering . whether he is joining his colleague from Kootenay West in supporting the views of the members of the Social Credit party about the expansion of money through the ownership of a government bank?


Colin Cameron: published in 1964, the author Mr. R. H. Wallace, senior lecturer in economics at the University of Adelaide has this to say:
Up to 1956 the Commonwealth Savings Bank played such a dominating role in the industry that by adjusting its policy it could offset any undesired changes by the other banks. The central bank used the Commonwealth Savings Bank as an instrument for its over-all policy. It continued to conduct its over-all open market operations partly through the Commonwealth Savings Bank, but with its own greatly expanded power and experience it did not need to rely on manipulation of the Commonwealth Savings Bank to control the liquidity of the trading banks.
Later, the author has this to say:
A most important change is the reduction in the share of the business of the Commonwealth Savings Bank. Prior to 1956, savings banking in three of the six states was the savings banking of the Commonwealth Savings Bank. Its over-all size was so great that changes in its investment policy which were marginal to its own scale of activity were sufficient to significantly influence the whole group. Today the absolute magnitude of the possible changes in the investments of the other banks is so much greater, and the relative size of the share of the Commonwealth Savings Bank so reduced, that these offsetting activities will no longer be marginal to its own activities. Further the Commonwealth Savings Bank is now operating in a highly competitive situation-
The expansion of the housing loans of the Commonwealth Savings Bank since then indicates that its policy is still largely determined by the treasury and reserve bank, and that the directive to the board in the Commonwealth Banks Act of 1959 to direct the policy of the corporation "to the greatest advantage of the people of Australia" is not an empty phrase. So long as the reserve bank will assist it by bond purchases, the Commonwealth Savings Bank can still expand its lending for housing and to public authorities as the need arises
Now, Mr. Chairman, it was just such a wide ranging banking complex that I had in mind when I suggested to the minister that he should make a start by taking over the Mercantile Bank and solving a potentially very difficult international situation. The necessity for such a wide ranging and decisive publicly owned sector of the banking system will, I think, become more and more clear as the years go by. As the hon. member for Perth remarked earlier, one of the great concerns before the committee was this question of the near banks and how they were to be controlled.
There were various suggestions. There was a suggestion that the definition of a bank might automatically bring them under the Bank Act. I, myself, inclined to that idea for a while, until I explored its ramifications and found it was somewhat impractical and could be quite dangerous. There were other suggestions of course. The government did take a 23033-888J
Bank Act
rather slight, I might say feeble, step when it introduced the deposit insurance legislation, with the unfortunate feature of leaving it in the hands of provincial governments to decide whether provincial institutions shall come under federal control.
However, in listening to the evidence of the banking witnesses, and in private conversations with bankers who attended the hearings,
I came to the conclusion this problem of bringing the near bank under federal control is likely to be solved by a totally different route, a route that will not land us in the constitutional impasse in which we might be landed by relying on the definition of a bank, a route that will avoid the many pitfalls that lie ahead in nearly every one of the suggestions for bringing them under control. I came to the conclusion that we are on the verge of seeing a vastly expanded banking system in Canada. When I say "vastly expanded", I mean that I can see signs already that the banks are going to move into many of the fields that are now occupied by the so-called near bank and the various financial institutions that have been causing so much concern.
I, myself, suggested to the chief witness for the Canadian Bankers Association, Mr. Paton, that it seemed to me we could look forward to a sort of department store operation by the chartered bank whereby a customer could take his choice of a personal loan, a business loan, a mortgage or what have you. The development of such institutions as RayNat and Kinross clearly indicates that that process is already under way. I am not inclined to quarrel with that development. Despite the fact that I lack faith in the philanthropy of the chartered banks, nevertheless I would feel much easier in my mind if such institutions had control of the financial system of Canada than I would contemplating such control in the hands of Atlantic, and all the various ones which in the last few days have been mentioned in the press.
While there are desirable features in this development there are, as I have suggested, undesirable ones as well in that there would be a further concentration of power and that concentration of power could only be avoided by the development of a publicly owned sector of the banking industry such as I have described. I repeat, perhaps ad nauseam, that we have plenty of precedents for this throughout the world. I do not believe we have any particular choice in this matter. I believe this development is going to take place whether we like it or not. I am quite

March 15, 1967
Bank Act
sure, from the attitude of bankers in private conversations, that this is their intention. Indeed, some of the academic professional witnesses we had before the committee suggested somewhat that sort of development. One witness suggested a sort of interim period in which we would have two types of banking licence, or whatever you want to call it, which would at the end of ten years be replaced by an over-all licence under federal legislation which would bring virtually all these institutions under the federal umbrella. Then all these institutions would be performing the same function.
However, Mr. Chairman, if, as I am afraid, the minister and his colleagues are too sunk in their doctrinaire vastness, if their firm religious beliefs which equate private enterprise with virtue and public enterprise with sin are so strong they cannot move from this position, then I think inadequate as it may be, we must insist on maintaining the effective 7\ per cent which would have been the result of the original proposal of the minister. It would be a temporary dike.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Chairman, I could not help rising to ask the hon. gentleman whether he does not agree, in view of the record of this government in the field of public enterprise, that we are full of sin?


David Lewis: You are, but that is not the reason.


Colin Cameron: As my colleague suggests, only when they were seduced. At any rate, Mr. Minister, I do not set myself up as an infallible judge of sin or virtue. I leave that to those with religious convictions.
As I say, the per cent ceiling would provide a temporary dike of some sort, although it would have holes punched in it very rapidly. I doubt if the minister has enough little Dutch boys at his disposal to poke fingers in all the holes. To those who fear, I think with some justification, that when the banks are let loose from their ceiling they may behave in something less than the most desirable social manner. I would very seriously commend this proposal of mine that we should establish a countervailing power in the centre of our financial institutions in the form of a government owned complex.
Now, Mr. Chairman, this brings me to one more item which I had to leave, as it were, blank, realizing that I was going to have to play it by ear. That item is the vexed question of the Mercantile Bank. I had rather

hoped that the minister would make some reference to it when he made his statement, if only to allay various rumours we have had about trouble and strife along the cabinet Tiber. No one seems to know exactly what the situation is.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)


Mitchell William Sharp: Don't believe all you hear.


Colin Cameron: I have to believe sometimes what a cabinet minister tells me; and when a cabinet minister tells me that he is opposed to what the committee did I have to ask myself questions. I have to ask myself how much weight this particular cabinet minister pulls. I do not know the answer to that question and I am wondering what it is.
I do know that this particular cabinet minister was very much opposed to the amendment that was moved by the hon. member for Verdun, and seconded by myself with great relish because I realized that it had several consequences; and I am a politician as well as a student of the monetary system. I should like to know very much what is the attitude of the government and those within the Liberal party who opposed this extension of five years in order to allow the Mercantile Bank to place itself in the position where it could conform with the demands of the Canadian government and the Canadian parliament. I think it is important that we know what is their position.
To my mind, Mr. Chairman, there were two courses open to us. One was the eminently practical and sensible course that I proposed to the minister and which he rejected out of hand, as I say on purely doctrinaire grounds. The other course was to amend the bill as originally presented by the government, so that the strait-jacket in which we placed this institution could be expanded or broken in order that it could place itself in the position where it could divest itself of the necessary 75 per cent of its shares.
What shocked me, Mr. Chairman, was that originally and up until quite recently some members of the government appeared to be content with the irresponsible position of leaving this bank as a festering sore in our relationship with the United States, without taking any steps to solve the problem. That is a very serious thing for the people of Canada to contemplate-that we have in the ranks of the government people who would be prepared to leave this problem unsolved, a source of continual friction with our United
March 15, 1967



States neighbours and an invitation to apply more and more dangerous pressures.
I should like to know whether the Minister of Finance has succeeded in convincing all of his colleagues that because he, and presumably they, must reject common sense on religious grounds they are now prepared to make it possible for the First National City Bank of New York to dispose of 75 per cent of its shares.
I told Mr. Rockefeller when he was here that I thought he had been very foolish to bring forward his particular case to that committee. I said that he might have been wiser to have based his position on a reasoned argument to refute the argument that a foreign bank would be dangerous in the Canadian economy. I told him at that time that I had had some difficulty in advancing a reasoned, logical economic argument in opposition to his.
However, we do not always have to rely purely on reasoned, economic logic. I later received some information on the operations of this gentleman's associates in other countries and I decided that whatever one's overall principles on the matter might be, this was a gentleman that we did not want in our economy. Perhaps he was too much of a chip off the old block. In fact, almost any minute I was expecting him to plunk down in the committee and hand out some shiny new dimes.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Asselin, Rich-mond-Wolfe):: Order. I regret I must inform the hon. member that his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Joseph Patrick Tobin Asselin: Does the committee give unanimous consent to permit the hon. member to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Colin Cameron: I have finished, Mr. Chairman. I have stated my position to the minister and tried to explain to him the weakness of his own position. I now seriously ask him to bear in mind what I have said as to the possibility of a publicly owned banking complex at the end of the five-year period. But I am very much afraid that Mr. Rockefeller will play a game of Russian roulette and at the end of the period will say "Too bad, I have not been able to sell my shares and you could not ask me to retract now". The minister may then have no recourse but to do rather expensively what
Bank Act
he should be able to do now rather inexpensively.


Henry P. Latulippe: I am pleased to rise again to speak on this question and have a new opportunity to deal with the present economic and banking system that we now have.
As far as I could, I attended almost all the sittings of the committee and I was as regular as I could. I know that the committee worked very hard; it did all it could to improve the economic and banking situation that we now know. But after all these sittings and after all the work that has been done, I consider that we are giving many more advantages to the banking and financial institutions than they had previously.
Such institutions already benefited from great advantages and great privileges and these are increased. I am not opposed to some citizens having great privileges, but I am sorry that some people are without any privileges at all or that they are deprived of their privileges to give them to those who already have many.
We should realize that our people have the right to live, that some are entitled to receive dividends, to have hidden reserves, or internal reserves of indiscreet reserves, call them as you will. There are other institutions which would also be entitled to various types of reserves, if we are to be equitable, if justice is to reign in the whole economic organization.
Almost all the advantages are being given to the large financial institutions in the country to the detriment of other institutions also entitled to the same advantages. We fight, we try not to give them any more advantages, but efforts are made to increase the privileges already enjoyed by the largest institutions.
Every time the wages of toil are increased, Mr. Chairman, every time the income from capital is increased, every time the overall cost of living is increased, the economic position of the people without income is weakened, as is that of the responsible citizens.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
Mr. Chairman, in order to appreciate how very important that warning is, it must be kept in mind that today, in 1966, Canada's population has reached 20,400,000 inhabitants, that over 7,400,000 citizens derive their income from their labour and their capital and that 12,600,000 Canadians have no income either through their labour or their capital,

March 15, 1987
Bank Act
being dependent upon individuals or society in general.
Therefore, whenever the cost of living rises due to all those increases in salaries, labour or interests on capital, the situation of those 12,600,000 dependent citizens without any income derived from capital or labour deterio-ates accordingly.
Perhaps at this stage I could give as an example children under 16 whose parents receive monthly family allowances of $6 and $8; that rate has not changed since 1944 and is no longer significant, being out of proportion with the cost of living in 1966.
The following table will prove my point. For instance, the gross national product which stood at $11,400 million in 1944-45, has reached $56 billion in 1966.
I also wish to point out to the minister that capital investments which totalled $1,280 million in 1944-45, have reached $18 billion in 1966.
I want to remind the house that bank assets have increased from $6 billion in 1944 to $26,500 million in 1966.
On the other hand, during the same period, the share capital of 800 large companies increased from $7 billion in 1944-45 to $102 billion in 1966; and cheques issued, from $60 billion in 1944-45 to $520 billion in 1966.
The M.P.'s indemnity was $4,000 in 1944-45; in 1966, it was $18,000.
In 1944-45, old age pensions were $20 a month while they are now $105.
As for family allowances, just a word about them in passing, they went from zero to $10 a month.
Though every item was multiplied by four, or eight or more, family allowances for children under 10 and under 16 remained the same at $6 and $8 a month; that is the 1944 rate, and the people are now living in 1966.
This restatement of the situation constitutes a warning. Why continue to favour wage increases for the workers or higher interest and dividend rates for the capitalists and bankers, when it is always detrimental to the humble and courageous citizens, the fathers and mothers of families who accept, in spite of an unbearable economic situation to nurse the next generation of adults, of producers to whom the Canada of tomorrow will owe its survival and prosperity.
At the present time, Mr. Chairman, the government is placed before two acute and striking basic cases where it is called upon to use its authority to make a decisive choice,

which it should have done long ago and can no longer be delayed, there being no reasonable cause or pretext to do so.
The Canadian government is the highest authority in the land, governing institutions, public bodies, pressure groups, intermediate bodies, the eight chartered banks, the 800 largest companies which speculate and make net profits of millions of dollars each year.
One Bank of Canada, eight chartered banks, 800 big companies under the direction of one or more directors of the eight chartered banks. Such is the world of high finance, the high economic management of Canada, which is the field of activities of Canada's great administrators.
Such are the agencies which are protected by Canada. The vote which just took place was in favour of these big institutions, and in other words against the people, which will again have to be content with their crumbs. But the people certainly have a right to their share. Unfortunately, however, those who speak for Canada here are much more representative of high finance than of the population of Canada.
Either these people are responsible or they are not. Either they rule and plan the whole economic activity of Canada, or they are not concerned with it. The fact still remains that they are under the authority of the hon. Minister of Finance and Receiver General of Canada (Mr. Sharp), and under the authority of the governor general in council, that is, the governor general and all the 26 ministers. That is the highest authority in Canada, and those are the people to whom we should turn to ask for administrative reform and urgently needed changes. The highest authority in the land cannot remain anonymous and irresponsible for whole decades.
This government, this highest authority, this governor general in council is soon to allow fairly important increases in the revenue from work and capital. The 6 per cent ceiling on the interest rates on loans made by the eight chartered banks is to be abolished.
Even if the governor in council and his 26 ministers want to hide behind the joint committees, the royal commissions or the economic councils in order to preserve the established and so-called democratic customs, the highest authority in Canada must still choose immediately between continuing to govern the country in the old-fashioned way and courageously instituting a new system which the people are waiting for and requesting patiently, confidently and with perseverance.
March 15, 1967

March 15. 1967
Business of the House
government bonds, to buy them back and to sell them again at a higher price.
Today, governments, provinces and municipalities, large companies, school boards, religious corporations and parishes issue bonds at an interest rate of 7 per cent and even 8 per cent. Why such prohibitive rates on money, on capital?
When will this staggering increase in the interest rate come to an end? Will someone attempt to stop it? Is it preferable to let the capital income continue to increase this way, when people do not have the basic requirements, when they lack adequate income, particularly the citizens that are too young, too ill or too old to earn their living?
This dangerous game must be ended, even if it benefits the part of the population that is well provided for, that has the knowledge, and that governs. The wealth, science and power of these gentlemen is not for themselves only, but for all the people that offer them their labour and their talent in order to get, in return, a better share of the wealth and income of Canada.
This is life in society: working for each other, not all for just a few who have wealth, talent, science and power. All these increases in interest and wages only pushes the cost of living higher, even for those citizens that have neither work nor capital. This is the painful aspect of the national economic situation.
The gap is getting wider between rich and poor between those with a surplus or a deficit, between those who accumulate capital and those who sink into debt. This is also true of all the governments, all levels of our economic activity. The interest rate is all-important in case of debts. To make you understand, let me draw the following picture. It will prove useful to understand our problem.
Suppose we have to build a bridge in Montreal, in Winnipeg, or anywhere in Canada, and that it costs $20 million. We can borrow again $20 million from banking finance at a 5 per cent interest, for 40 years. We can borrow from the Bank of Canada $20 million without interest, repayable at 5 per cent of the amount, over 20 years, because the bridge is an unprofitable public utility, that has no possible revenue. Moreover, it was built with Canadian materials and by Canadian people. Only Canadians took part in the building of that bridge or that building, if you want to put it that way.
The Bank of Canada bonds bear a 5 per cent interest; the annual reimbursement, at 5 per cent, is $1 million; the 20 year interest is $20 million. Ten years from now, $10 million in interest; 20 years from now, with the present system, the interest will cost $20 million and 40 years from now, it will cost $40 million.
Mr. Chairman, may I point out that it is six
o'clock?

Process reported.
[DOT] (6:00 p.m.)



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

George James McIlraith: Tomorrow we propose submitting to the house for its consideration items 74, 75, 134, 136, 137 and 139.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 16, 1967