1966-11-25

PRIVILEGE


Mr. Heward Graffiey (Brome-Missisquoi):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak briefly on a question of privilege affecting all members of this house. I realize the seriousness of questions of privilege; this is only the second occasion on which I have raised one since I first entered this chamber nearly nine years ago.
Yesterday, one Philip J. Farmer, an executive director of the Canadian Highway Safety Council, appeared before the committee on justice and legal affairs, and according to verified reports he said that in the past I had suggested that the Canadian Highway Safety Council had accepted bribes and silencing money from the automobile industry. Mr. Speaker, at no time in the past, and in no place, did I use the words "bribes" or "silencing money".
I said I would be brief, sir, and I will be brief. I have said during the last two years that for some time the Canadian Highway Safety Council had done a reasonably good job in cajoling the driver, and talking about roads, but only recently in the last 18 months has it been prodded into discussing the car in the safety debate on highway deaths and accidents. The reason for its failure, I said, was because it had excluded the car from the debate.
Mr. Farmer said yesterday that in 1966 the Canadian Highway Safety Council received only 9.4 per cent of its total contributions from the automobile industry. He did not mention the amounts received from allied industries-finance companies, tire companies and parts companies. I have only pointed out that there was a conflict of interest upon the Canadian Highway Safety Council inasmuch as those who make up the council and are responsible for its direction are, in their day to day work, attached to the automobile industry or to allied industries.
[DOT] (11:10 a.m.)
The president of the Canadian Highway Safety Council is president of Industrial Acceptance Corporation which finances automobile purchases. Another director is president of White Motor Company. Mr. Arch Bryce, who for years was executive secretary of the Canadian Highway Safety Council, is now a safety adviser to the Ford Motor Company, and, Mr. Speaker, he did not get this job by bringing the automobile into the safety debate.
I conclude by saying that instead of splitting hairs before the legal and justice committee the safety council should be advertising conditions regarding the defective automobiles on the road in Canada today. As the chief commoner in the land and as protector of our rights and privileges I suggest to Your Honour that this witness be called again, either before the legal and justice committee or before the house committee on privileges, and be made to testify as to the time and place that I ever used the words "bribes" or "silencing money". If he cannot produce this testimony, which I know he cannot, he should be severely censured by the proper authorities in the house for putting words into my mouth that I did not use.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.



NATURAL GAS


Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I have been advised that it will take a number of weeks before I am in a position to table the documents called for in notices of motions Nos. 175 and 176. This is due to the fact that all departments and agencies of the government must search their files to select the pertinent material, and must at times, obtain consent from other governments to table their correspondence. There are literally masses of material involved.
In view of the interest which exists in the house, however, I am pleased to table now all the documents requested which appear in the files of my office, subject to reservations respecting correspondence which is privileged

November 25, 1966
Inquiries of the Ministry or which is marked personal and confidential, or which is from other governments and cannot be tabled before their consent is obtained.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquiilam):: Does this include the letters of September 15 and 19 which the Federal Power Commission requested?


Jean-Luc Pepin: It does, sir.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I directed the attention of the Prime Minister to the frightful famine calamity that faces various parts of India, and he said that consideration was being given to the matter. In view of the fact that time is of the essence I ask him what has been done in the last 24 hours in this regard? What has the government in contemplation and under consideration to assist in at least alleviating the terrible consequences that will follow unless there is action from all parts of the world to assist that country at this time?


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, there is a memorandum before me now with regard to a detailed proposal, on which it is hoped we will be able to decide on Monday morning, which will permit additional assistance to be sent forward to India at once in view of the famine situation there. This is in addition to the one million tons of wheat which already has been shipped to India as famine aid during the current year.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, the other day the right hon. Prime Minister promised to make an inquiry as to whether he had received a telegram from the president of the Board of Trade at Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, which contained some four recommendations dealing with problems outlined in the Donald report. I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has been able to locate this wire and what action the government contemplates taking in light of these requests?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the telegram did arrive. The matter has been considered by the government. The whole question of the implementation of a coal policy for that area is being considered. As a result of the decision taken by the government it is hoped to have a meeting with the premier and other representatives of Nova Scotia very shortly to see whether a joint federal-provincial policy can be agreed on in connection with this very important matter.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, can the Prime Minister say how soon the government intends to implement the commitment made more than a year ago by the Minister of National Health and Welfare with regard to giving aid to the coal industry in Nova Scotia?


Lester Bowles Pearson: When the meeting takes place with the government of Nova Scotia, which we hope will be next week-and we have been in touch with the provincial government-we will have specific and concrete proposals to submit to them.


[Stage Direction]
LOAN TO MEXICO On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caouetle (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance and Receiver General.
We read in the newspapers this morning that Canada is getting ready to grant a $5,400,000 loan to Mexico. Will this sum to be loaned to Mexico bear interest? This is what I would like the minister to tell me.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice.


[Stage Direction]
REQUEST FOR OUTLINE OF BASIC FORMULA On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Veterans Affairs. I wonder whether the minister has any report to make to the house following the presentation of the Royal Canadian Legion brief to the government yesterday, especially with reference to the statement of the legion president that at last year's meeting a basic formula had been promised by the minister but that nothing has materialized as yet.
November 25, 1966


Hon. Roger Teillei (Minister of Veierans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I indicated to the officials of the Royal Canadian Legion that the formula had not yet been completed and that I would report in that regard as soon as it is available to me.



BILINGUALISM AND BICULTURALISM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Roberl Coates (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. It relates to a starred question I have had on the order paper since November 8-starred 
question No. 2,155-regarding the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Bi-culturalism. How long must Canadians wait for a final report of this royal commission which has become nothing more than a boon-doggler for researchers and friends of this government. It has proven to be a multi-million dollar flop.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member for Ontario.



ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF CANADA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Prime Minister. Will he consider setting up a joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons on economic affairs to examine and study the report of the Economic Council of Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, this of course is already being studied. I would be glad to look into the idea of a special study being given by a joint parliamentary committee, although I doubt whether that is necessary. I am now informed by the Minister of Finance that it is before a committee of the house for study at the present time.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: 
Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I really do not think this is the kind of question that ought to be asked at this time. I suggest the hon. member might like to place it on the order paper.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, this matter concerns us in this group very much. We have documentary evidence of grave injustices being suffered by certain veterans in British Columbia. We do think this is a matter for urgent consideration by the minister, and I am sure the minister would like to answer the question.
Hon. Roger Teillei (Minister of Veierans
Affairs): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. gentleman knows that I have no authority over the Corps of Commissionaires. However, if he has some specific complaints I will be very pleased to forward them and lay the matter before the officers of the corps.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have a supplementary question. Will the minister also forward any supporting documentary evidence in this connection to the officers of the corps?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I will be very pleased to do so, if the hon. member will provide me with that documentation.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very pleased to do that.



ITALY-ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIEF FUND

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Righl Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Red Deer, and other members previous to that, asked me a question about Canadian aid to Italy in consequence of the terrible flood disaster which has hit that country and has affected one third of Italy, including some of the most productive areas and two of its greatest cities.
To provide both immediate and long-term relief and assistance to Italy, the government has decided to set up a fund, to which it will contribute half a million dollars and to which the public is invited to subscribe. The government will appoint a chairman of the fund,
[Stage Direction]
November 25, 1966
Inquiries of the Ministry who will, in turn, appoint an advisory committee. The fund will be administered and dispersed under the direction of the Canadian government, in close consultation of course, with the Italian government. Public donations will be tax deductible.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Minister of Finance and it relates to the recommendations contained in the Economic Council review filed this week. In view of the fact the Economic Council has told us that productivity is beginning to lag seriously in Canada and that we need increased research spending to combat this situation, I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether the government intends to lift its freeze on research spending?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows-and I have said this on a number of occasions- there is no freeze on research spending by the Canadian government. When the estimates are brought down it will be seen that the federal government intends to spend a very substantially increased amount on research in the future. In my original statement made in September I said, and this is also true, that unfortunately because of the competing demands for the taxpayers' dollars, that increase cannot be as much as we might wish.



TRANSFER OF ENGLISH SPEAKING TELEPHONE OPERATORS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. A. Webb (Hasiings-Fronienac):: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last I received a reply to a question I asked regarding the removal of English speaking telephone operators in government departments. The minister said that he knew of no such action but would look into the matter. As of this date we have received no reply. I believe this matter was again brought to the minister's attention this week at a Liberal caucus.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minisler of Transsport):: Mr. Speaker, I believe the estimates of my department are to be considered as soon as we reach the orders of the day. If the hon. gentleman will repeat his question then I will be glad to deal with it at that time.



WESTERN CANADA-ACTION OF BOARD RESPECTING SUBVENTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, because of some anxiety in respect of the coal industry in western Canada I should like to ask the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources whether there is any intention on the part of the government to abolish the coal board? If there is any change to be made, would the minister indicate what the change will be?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister just said, the government has reached a decision on an approach to this problem. Discussions with the Nova Scotia government and Dosco will be held and policy will be announced in due course.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker-and I am not trying to get into the field of policy. Will it affect the coal board in its relationship with the western industry, or is it merely a matter that affects the mari-times?


Jean-Luc Pepin: The subsidy program for the Cape Breton coal industry is only part of the activities of the coal board. Consequently the coal board would still have duties to perform, even if changes should take place as to the method of subsidizing the Cape Breton coal industry.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: A further supplementary question. Does that mean that the subvention on coal from the Crowsnest Pass and Canmore to the Japanese market, which has meant the shipment of millions of tons of coal, will be cancelled?


Jean-Luc Pepin: No, sir.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Postmaster General this question at the request of various organizations across Canada, because a decision must be made now if any action is to be taken in this regard. Does the government intend to issue a special commemorative stamp in honour of the visit of Her Majesty the Queen in 1967, as was the course followed
November 25, 1966

on previous occasions when she visited this country in 1951, 1957, 1959 and 1964? I ask this question because in the list of stamps proposed to be issued in 1967 there is no reference to such a stamp.


Hon. Jean-Pierre Cole (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, at the time we published the list of stamps to be issued in 1967 we were not aware of the visit of the Queen. Since that time we have been made aware of the royal visit, and I announced last week that a stamp would be issued commemorating that event.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Postmaster General. In view of his reply that a statement was made on the royal visit commemorative stamp, could he advise the house when this statement was made and by whom?


Desmond Morton Code: I myself made this announcement in a news release which appeared in the daily paper.


Michael Starr: On what date?


Mr. Cote (Postmaster General):: I think it was at the beginning of the week. I will send the hon. member a copy of it.


John George Diefenbaker: If the minister means a week ago then I suggest there is something wrong in his office because on November 21 his special assistant replied to a letter that no decision had been made. The minister had better look up his correspondence in the office.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Keays (Gaspe):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. During the study of his estimates the minister informed the house that amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act were before the cabinet for approval. Can the minister now inform us whether these amendments have been approved and when they will be announced?


Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, possibly the hon. member was not in the house at the time, but I announced at least a month ago that the regulations had been approved by the cabinet and were being gazetted.
Inquiries of the Ministry HOUSE OF COMMONS



ALLEGED USE OF ELECTRONIC LISTENING DEVICE IN CAUCUS ROOM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I had a question for the Minister of Public Works. If the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra would ask him to come into the chamber from behind the curtain, I will put my question.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Reid Scott: Has the minister received representations from any of his colleagues in or out of the cabinet, or in between those two positions-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Lester Bowles Pearson: That is not a proper question.


Reid Scott: I had better repeat it. Has the minister received representations from any of his colleagues in or out of the cabinet, or in between those two positions, containing allegations that the Liberal caucus room has been bugged? If so, has he investigated this matter, and what are the results of the investigation?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It seems to me that for a number of reasons the question is out of order.


Lester Bowles Pearson: For every reason.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Ormisfon (Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I wonder whether the minister is yet in a position to tell the house when he expects to receive the report of Mr. Justice Woods on the administration of the pension commission.


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I cannot give that information at the moment, Mr. Speaker. I will make inquiries and perhaps report next week.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question

November 25, 1966
Inquiries of the Ministry to the Minister of Finance. In view of the government's action in raising a number of other interest rates, would the government consider raising the rate of interest that is paid on the money in the public service superannuation fund, which is now only 4 per cent, so that additional money might be available with which to increase the pensions of retired civil servants?


Mitchell William Sharp: I have heard the representations of the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker.



TRANSPORT

[Stage Direction]
MONTMAGNY, P.Q.-LEVEL CROSSING On the orders of the day:
Mr. Alcide Simard (Lac-Saint-Jean):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport.
Does the minister intend to take the necessary safety measures with respect to the Fourth Avenue grade crossing at Montmagny, which has just been condemned by a coroner's jury?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I believe the question is too local to be acceptable at this time. The hon. member should put it on the order paper.



MAINLAND CHINA-POSSIBLE ESTABLISHMENT OF OFFICE IN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Prime Minister. In view of the Prime Minister's remarks yesterday concerning China I wonder whether the time is now appropriate for the Prime Minister to agree that the Chinese mainland government should be invited to set up a trade office in Canada such as Japan and a dozen other countries have offered to do?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, there has been no change in that regard in the few weeks since my statement in the house, which did not refer to the present situation but to the situation which might take place in the future. If there is a change in that situation, then we will make the necessary arrangements accordingly. I would recommend to my hon. friend in this connection that he read not only my statement with [Mr. Knowles.l
regard to the matter but also the statement made by his leader.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: On a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In view of the answer just given by the Prime Minister I should now like to ask him a question which is partially one of opinion but nevertheless very pertinent. Does he not think that he could indicate in his speech such a possible step of a very practical nature, which was originally promised five years ago and never carried out by the present government?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The former government promised five years ago that they would carry it out.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.



TRANSLATION OF GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert McCleave (Halifax):: My question concerns all government departments so I will address it to the Prime Minister. How many publications of government departments, such as the 1966 Canada Year Book, are in danger of becoming historic documents because they cannot be publicly released until they are translated and printed in the other official language?


Mr. Speaker:: If the question is in order, it should be placed on the order paper.


Robert Jardine McCleave: At ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say, in view of your ruling that the question should be put on the order paper, that I think it is a very important question at this time. I noticed that last night on the news broadcast a publication purporting to be the 1966 Canada Year Book was displayed. I checked with the parliamentary library but they had no copy of it, and I do not believe a copy has been tabled in the house. I think it is a very important question at this time.


Mr. Speaker:: I realize it is important at this time and the hon. member indicated he would like to discuss it in the adjournment debate. We can consider the importance of the matter at that time.
November 25, 1966



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I have a question for the Minister of Veterans Affairs which he might like to take as notice. Are veterans who are eligible for hospitalization admitted to Sunnybrook hospital promptly, or is there a waiting period of two months or more?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I have not heard of any such delays but I will certainly inquire into the matter.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: should like to direct my question to the Minister of National Revenue and President of the Treasury Board. Some time last June I put a question on the order paper asking what the government was doing about eliminating unjustifiable deductibility regulations in connection with expense accounts, and also how much revenue would be gained as a result of such action. I have not yet received a reply. My question at present is whether the minister would undertake to ask the government to expedite a reply.


Hon. E. J. Benson (Minister of National Revenue and President of the Treasury Board):: Mr. Speaker, the question will be answered next week. I thank the hon. member for bringing it to my attention.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: My question is directed to the Minister of Manpower and Immigration. I wonder whether the minister is now in a position to give us the report of his department on the question of the entry of Mexican Mennonite immigrants into Manitoba?


Hon. Jean Marchand (Minister of Manpower and Immigration):: My statement was ready yesterday but it is so lengthy that it seemed to me more appropriate to present it on motions. That is the reason I did not present it yesterday. I might do it today, and I will ask my office to send me the report.
Supply-Transport



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Joseph Alcide Simard: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture.
Is the minister aware of the fact that the milk producers in my riding have not yet received their subsidy payments for the last three or four months?


Hon. J. J. Greene (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I think I made a statement on this yesterday.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Batten in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

[Stage Direction]
1.	Departmental administration, $4,899,800.
Roderick Arthur Ennis Webb: Mr. Chairman, I should like to repeat my question to the Minister of Transport which I put to him last Friday and which is recorded on page 10047 of Hansard in regard to the removal of English speaking telephone operators in the government employ. The Minister of Transport replied that he knew of no such action but would look into the matter. I have not received a reply since then.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Prince Ed-ward-Lennox who last night pointed out in the house so ably that the Canadian people are wondering just what is going on in the country today and what is the objective of the Liberal government. Today in Canada 67 per cent of the population is English speaking, whether of English or other ethnic or g.n, and one by one they are being removed from the service of the government. The people of Canada are fed up with this state of affairs. It is time we were informed of the objective of this government, and of their action in this respect.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I would like to reply to the hon. gentleman at once by saying that these employees are not civil servants but employees of the Bell Telephone Company. We have told that company that every employee of the government switchboard must be English speaking. If they cannot answer the telephone in English, they cannot be employed.

November 25, 1966
Supply-Transport
We think that since there are two official languages in this country it is right that any one who places a call through the government switchboard in the other official language should receive a reply in that language as well. I think this is only fair. All this means is that we want operators who can answer the telephone on the government switchboard in either of the two official languages. They may be born in Poland, they may be born in Saskatchewan or they may be born in China, but it is a requirement that they be able to answer simple questions in both official languages. If we are going to have a united country it seems to me we can ask for no less.
[DOT] (11:40 a.m.)


Roderick Arthur Ennis Webb: I want to be as fair about this as I can, Mr. Chairman, but we are living in the province of Ontario, and a check of 9,000 telephone calls, made by us, revealed that 7,221 were answered in French. We are still living in Ontario, in this part of Canada. What is the reason for this?


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. member will bring to my notice a single instance that he knows of himself, or that anyone else knows of, where somebody has telephoned the government switchboard and has found that the operator cannot answer in English I shall take the matter up at once with as much indignation as he shows. It is absolutely imperative that every operator on the government switchboard be able to answer in English. It is equally important that those who wish to speak in the other official language be answered in the other official language, without having to have a second operator searched for. Because of this, employees not qualified are simply being transferred from the government switchboard by the Bell Telephone Company to other employment at the same remuneration, and no injustice is involved in this.
I think it is elementary justice, if you are to have two official languages in this country, that a person can telephone the government switchboard, make his request in either official language, and receive a prompt reply.


Roderick Arthur Ennis Webb: I do not want anyone to think that the sentiment I express comes from this side of the house only. The minister is well aware of what happened in his own caucus this week, and I want him to keep that in mind.


Mr. Howard:: On a question of privilege-


David Réal Caouette: On a point of order, on this particular matter which has been discussed, Mr. Chairman, I want to say something.


With regard to English or French speaking telephone operators, the hon. member says that out of 7,000 and a few hundred calls, 7,000 had been answered in French. I feel we have as much experience in this house as the previous speaker, and I wish to make clear that parliamentary telephone operators usually answer us in English. If we want to be answered in French, we can insist on it.
I congratulate the Minister of Transport and the government for having promoted Canadian unity instead of stirring up strife, as just did my good friend, the Conservative member.
Both official languages are treated more equitably today than ever before in the past.


Frank Howard: On a question of privilege, I want to take up one matter with the minister.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The only reason the question was asked about telephone operators was the minister's refusal to answer on orders of the day. He said that this question should be taken up during the course of his estimates. I will not suggest there was any motive behind that


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: -but the order of speaking should begin with the Conservative party, the official opposition of this house, comprising 96 members. I think that our member who wants to talk on transport estimates should have the first chance to speak.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On the question of privilege which has been raised by the hon. gentleman, I understood the hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac was still a member of the Conservative party. It is interesting to be told that he is another of those who has been excluded by the hon. gentleman representing Winnipeg South Centre.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


The Chairman:: Order, please. The usual practice, when estimates come up for the first time in the house is to have one spokesman for each party. I was advised by the whip of the Conservative party that the hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac would be the first speaker. I then recognized a member from the New Democratic Party and I shall then recognize a member from another party.
November 25, 1966


Michael Starr: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am sure you want to be fair, but the hon. member from our party who rose asked a question which he had intended to ask and tried to ask on orders of the day. It was pointed out that we could ask the question when the transport estimates were up, and this is all the hon. member has done. He was not making his speech on the estimates, but merely took the opportunity to ask his question. The Chair suggested that he should do so. Consequently he has not been the first speaker from our party at all.


David Réal Caouette: On the same point of order-


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order that has been raised by the hon. member for Oshawa and the member for Winnipeg South Centre-


Michael Starr: It is Ontario.


Frank Howard: -I think your ruling is absolutely correct about the order of recognition. If the Conservative party, unable to run its own affairs properly, feels it needs some assistance, I shall be glad to waive my opportunity-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I rise on a point of order. I am surprised that permission was given to the jack-in-the-box Minister of Transport to make a spurious attack on me and the Conservative party without any interruption, and yet the minute I rose to answer him Mr. Chairman took the floor. Why should this minister be given the privilege of irrelevancy if it is not conceded to the rest of us. Has he some special privilege in this house of manipulating affairs? Being afraid to answer questions on orders of the day, he tried to transfer them to a discussion on his estimates, hoping that speeches would be made that would eliminate the member for Hastings-Frontenac from asking his question? That is the motive I discern behind the minister's action in his fear to answer questions raised on orders of the day.


John Whitney Pickersgill: You are a very poor mind reader.


Roderick Arthur Ennis Webb: On a question of privilege, the Minister of Transport referred to me as not belonging to the Conservative party. I do not want my loyalty questioned. I am not, as he is, changing colours and jumping from one province to another.


Herman Maxwell Batten: It is time to say to the hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac that he has been recognized three times. If he has not
Supply-Transport
finished his remarks I shall be pleased to recognize him again. Following that I shall recognize the hon. member for Skeena.


Michael Starr: Do I understand, sir, that you are not complying with the wishes of Mr. Speaker, who said that the hon. member should ask his question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might, in a spirit of appeasement, and not through any fear at all, urge Your Honour to accept the very generous suggestion of the hon. member for Skeena that you recognize the hon. member for Kindersley, who was to have been the official spokesman of the official opposition party. I think that was clearly understood. I do not think this little contretemps between myself and the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre-both of us are getting rather old, and we are sometimes irrelevant-should be allowed to interfere with the orderly progress of debate or the good spirit we generally try to have in the house. I think the very generous gesture made by the hon. member for Skeena should be accepted by the committee, and I ask Your Honour to accept it.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill), I would like to say a word.
The hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac (Mr. Webb) did not ask the minister a question but he made a statement to the effect that operators answered in French, and the minister replied that an operator had to speak English to be hired and it is true. No French Canadian is working as an operator in the parliament buildings who cannot speak English. Now, the hon. member says that we are in Ontario. Well, he should know that we are not in Ontario but in Canada, and that French Canadian citizens have the same rights in Ottawa as English speaking citizens.
[DOT] (11:50 a.m.)


Mr. Canlelon:: I hesitate to try to pour oil on these troubled waters, being perhaps what the hon. member to my right might call a renegade Frenchman-my ancestors came from France some 900 years ago. Besides, regrettably, I am unable to speak French; I can hardly call it my mother tongue, now. I wish I could.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.

November 25, 1966
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Reginald (Reg) Cantelon: Nevertheless I am glad to have this opportunity to make these few comments on the estimates of the Department of Transport. I am disappointed, first of all, that the minister has not seen fit to make a statement. I would be very interested to know what his feelings are with respect to a number of questions. I wish to say a few words, myself, about those matters, and about one, in particular, which has received very little attention recently. I have in mind the announcement made by the minister on March 25, 1965, that assistance to local airports would be forthcoming.
I was happy to hear the minister make this announcement. I have felt for many years that since we support automobilists by providing them with roads out of public taxation it would be no more than justice to provide airports for people in outlying areas, in particular, who want to fly planes and land them safely, instead of being obliged to use rough fields and makeshift facilities. As I say, I was happy to hear the minister's announcement. But from that point on, I believe the minister would be one of the first to agree what happened amounted almost to a comedy of errors.
He announced that one million dollars would be available for this purpose in all parts of Canada. I should like hon. members to note the date-March 25, 1965. I waited some time, then I telephoned the minister's office on two occasions. I received courteous replies but I did not get a copy of the provisions or regulations governing the proposed grants. I decided I had better ask a question in the house to make it obvious to the department that it was about time these regulations were made available.
So on May 10, 1965 I asked a question in the house on this subject and the minister was kind enough to reply as follows:
We expect these details to be available for distribution in the course of the next few days.
As the hon. gentleman knows, they were not. Again, I called the mrnster's office a couple of times, receiving courteous replies but still no copies of the regulations. So on May 28, 1965 as reported at page 1771 of Hansard I again put a question to the minister.
I think at that point he was getting a little huffy, if I might use that word, just as I was. He said in reply:
I believe they are ready and are on the point of being distributed. I will now try to speed things up as much as I can.
And he did. When I called his department a day or so later, the person who answered 
me-I do not wish to give names, of course -said the minister had been raising particular "something or other", and that the regulations would be ready in a day or two. They were, indeed, and I received copies of the regulations and sent them out.
At this point I ran into another block. I do not blame the minister. I think it was probably a case of imperfect communication. There were six places in my constituency where I thought aid was needed and where it might be expected. I got in touch with those concerned, and some of them got in touch with the department and asked that a review of their facilities be made in order to determine whether the requirements were met. I believe four places were visited by officials from the department in the region, and I am afraid the people there received what they considered to be a brush-off. Again, I took the matter up with the minister, who told me that this was not the intention and that in his view further consideration should be given to the requests.
After all this, a procedure extending over a period of months, one airfield has finally been given a grant. I understand that these people, in turn, have managed to get into difficulty about it, so it is not certain whether they will, in fact, get any assistance. But this is not the responsibility of the minister, nor of his department; the grant was made available. The result is, as far as I can find out, that in the whole of Saskatchewan a total amount of, roughly, $27,000 has been made available for the purpose the minister had in mind. The town of Biggar has received $18,000 and the town of Unity has received some $9,500.
The point I wish to make is this. This plan was one which was to have been carried out throughout the whole of the dominion. Thus we might reasonably have expected that some degree of equality would be attached to the allocation of funds. I make no accusations but I th nk it is remarkable that the place which received the most funds was Despair Bay-I should, probably, say it in French, but I will not even try.
The amount received in that place was generous-I have the figure somewhere among my papers; I do not care to depend on my memory; the actual amount was sent to me by the Department of Transport at my request.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. gentleman
would like to continue I will have one of my officials send down a note showing the amount.
November 25. 1966


Reginald (Reg) Cantelon: I do not seem to be able to find it in this mass of material. However, from memory, I believe this particular area received something like $250,000, give or take a few tens of thousands. The whole of Newfoundland received some $280,000-I am fairly sure that figure is correct. So, if I am anywhere near right, the province of Saskatchewan got roughly $27,000 and the province of Newfoundland got something like ten times as much.
Hon. members may say that perhaps there was more need in the province of Newfoundland. I am prepared to admit that this may be the case. The airport which received the major part of the money was located in an area where a large power development has been taking place, so there was great need for an airport there.
Nevertheless, a need also exists in the areas of Saskatchewan to which I have referred. They did not expect to receive anything like a quarter of a million dollars, but I think each airport might reasonably be expected to receive the modest amounts, in the region of $10,000 to $15,000, for which they were asking. If five or six of them had been approved it would still be far short of the large amount of money which Newfoundland received, and I would hope the minister will make a statement on this matter. I hope he will continue the policy, but that there will be a fairer distribution of the moneys he has available. I think the breakdown in communication between himself and the regional officials has been responsible for the failure of these places to get the grants, and the minister must realize that these local airports are entitled to some assistance.
[DOT] (12 noon)
I note that the railway grade crossing fund, in vote 82, was raised by $1 million last year, from $9 million to $10 million. In view of the couple of tragic accidents which occurred at intervals of almost a year in the Port Hope area, this is something to which the minister should direct his attention. There are still a large number of crossings that are far from being safe. I do not suggest that we should try to do something with crossings where the passing of trains seldom occurs, where they are out in the country with a clear view both ways; but on crossings near communities, over which there is a reasonable amount of train traffic, we should do everything we can, and spend larger sums of money in the coming year to see that they are adequately marked.
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If this requires another $10 million, another $20 million or another $30 million, I think the money can be found. As a matter of fact, I have great faith in the ability of the government to find money. It has demonstrated how well it can do this under the most unfavourable circumstances, but I hope it can find it in a little more-I will not use the word legitimate-a little more open way than it did recently.
The minister has made some statements about rail line abandonment, and if I am not mistaken has supported the policy which I will be advocating. I would like him to support it openly in this house. Some railway lines are going to be taken away from areas solely because they are uneconomic. This will leave the people living in those areas in an impossible situation with respect to getting their supplies and sending out heavy, bulk materials, such as grain and other products.
It would be well nigh impossible for the provinces to face the heavy expense of putting good roads into areas where rail line abandonment has taken place. I believe the minister should make a statement saying this is something the federal government will sympathetically consider, subject to the advice of the new commissioners to be appointed under the proposed railway legislation. I know the federal government has done this in the past. It did it with regard to the Buctouche-Moncton branch line which was abandoned, or possibly not built. At that time the federal government devoted some millions of dollars to the building of a good road. As I say, I hope the minister will see fit to make a clear statement on the intentions of the government with respect to this matter.
I should now like to mention the St. Lawrence seaway. We had an emergency debate last June on the subject of the seaway, when all other business of the house was set aside. As a result of that debate I think the minister has a clear indication that the attitude of most people opposes any increase of the St. Lawrence seaway tolls. I know that what happens in the United States affects what we may do on the seaway because it operates a part of the seaway in conjunction with the Canadian authorities, the same as we operate part of it in conjunction with the American authorities. It would create a very difficult situation if we took one course in this country and the United States took another course. I understand strong arguments have been advanced in the United States favouring complete abolition of the tolls, and I believe this is what should be

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finally done, because if transportation is of national importance then the seaway is also of national importance. It not only helps the western producers to move their grain to the east, and potash shipments which are likely to increase in the near future, but it also assists eastern Canadian manufacturers to send their products to the very big markets of the west.
It should not be forgotten that it is quite easy to move such things as machinery from Minneapolis to the west, bypassing the seaway altogether. If we raise the seaway tolls too high a lot of business will be diverted from eastern Canadian firms to firms in the United States which will be able to ship their products to western Canada at a lower price than that of eastern Canadian industrialists.
I can see no harm to the Atlantic provinces in whatever we may do with the St. Lawrence seaway. The only harm that would befall the maritime provinces is that they lose winter business which the port of Montreal gets, due to the fact that the lower St. Lawrence river is being kept open for much longer periods of time than used to be the case. This is a fact of life that the maritime provinces must live with; but the question of tolls does not affect them because the tolls come into operation from Montreal, inland. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister will make a statement on these four matters because I think they merit his attention.


Frank Howard: of holding a formal investigation into the causes which led to the foundering of the Manseau 101 on September 30, 1966.
Dated at Ottawa this 14th day of November, 1966.
J. R. Baldwin for Minister of Transport
Although I am aware that the minister is prohibited from giving a legal interpretation, I am sure he will be able to give an explanation in clarification of the situation, because it certainly is open to clarification. The matter I should like to raise is this: Not only did the Manseau 101 founder and sink on September 30, 1966, just below Quebec city, but the important point is that a number of persons working there lost their lives by drowning. Of the 24 persons who were on board at the time, ten drowned. I believe the technical phrase is, "missing, believed drowned". This is the wording used when the bodies are not found. I think it can be said without hesitation that they drowned.
In the letter I have just read there is no reference whatsoever to the loss of the seamen who were on board and who drowned as a result of the sinking of the Manseau 101. The heading is, "In the matter of the foundering of the dredge-" and the inquiry is, "a formal investigation into the causes which led to the foundering of the Manseau 101. Nowhere in that letter of commission is there a reference to those who lost their lives. I think this is an extremely vital and important question.
Although I do not wish to read it in its entirety, attached to this is a document headed, "Statement of the Case", which I understand will be read at the opening of the inquiry. Since this was sent to me I assume I am not transgressing any of the proprieties of the investigation if I make reference to it. The statement of the case makes reference to the fact that 10 of the 24 persons on the Manseau 101 were drowned. As one of the questions put to the inquiry, it asks how many persons were aboard the dredge and how many lost their lives. Then it goes on to make reference to lifesaving equipment, communications, periodic checks and the like. It also poses the particular question: What caused the loss of the Manseau 101?
Quite frankly I do not know whether the commissioner, Mr. Justice Noel, has authority to inquire into the cause of the loss of life. The minister nods his head, so the answer is yes. In the Canada Shipping Act, an antiquated document if ever there was one on the statute books, I see that there are a number of sections which refer to inquiries, casualties
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and accidents in respect of ships. I understand that the commission of inquiry which looked into the matter of the sinking of the Huronic specifically had cognizance of the provisions of section 551 of the Canada Shipping Act which says, "A shipping casualty shall be deemed to occur-" and then there are subsections (a), (b), (c), (d), and so on. Subsection (c) reads as follows:
(c) when, by reason of any casualty happening to or on board any ship in, on or near such inland waters or coast, loss of life ensues . . .
I would think that indicates clearly that we are concerned in this commission of inquiry, and others, not only with the loss or the sinking of the ship or dredge, but that we also are concerned with and in fact should give prior thought and consideration to the matter of the loss of life. I submit that in the letter by which Mr. Justice Noel is appointed as commissioner there should be some reference to the relevant part of section 551 which deals with shipping casualties and accidents on ships. I would think that the commissioner should be asked specifically not only to inquire into what caused the foundering of the Manseau 101, but also to inquire into the cause of the loss of life.
[DOT] (12:20 p.m.)
This is vitally serious. Let me refer just briefly to the loss of the Fort William in Montreal harbour. It caught fire, capsized and sank and there was a loss of life. In spite of that loss of life, there was no direction in the terms of reference to the commission appointed to inquire into this accident to ascertain the reason for this loss of life, or to fix responsibility. As a consequence, the Canada Steamship Lines even though it was negligent in its responsibility in having a ship built that was not seaworthy because of the ballast tanks and in not having a sufficient number of people on watch, was relieved of any responsibility because the commission did not have the authority to inquire into this loss of life.
That is perhaps also the case to which I first referred. Mr. Justice Noel was appointed to look into only the causes which led to the foundering of the Manseau 101, but he will not be in a position to make any inquiry into the loss of ten lives. Nor will he have any authority to place the responsibility on anyone's shoulders.
Section 558 of the Canada Shipping Act makes reference to formal inquiries which can be made and covers the situation quite extensively. When an accident occurs and there is a

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loss of life or injuries are inflicted upon seamen, an inquiry should be made not only as to the causes of the accident, but as to the responsibility and where it should rest. We must think in terms of preventing similar accidents from happening in the future, and we can do this best by inquiring into causes of accidents and responsibility for loss of life. We can then make regulations based on our experience.
All our safety regulations in industry have been based on our experience, and the realization that certain companies had done certain unsafe things. As a consequence, to ensure the safety of their employees, regulations were passed to restrict those companies from carrying out such unsafe actions. I am sure the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Transport, having been a hard-rock miner, knows how various safety regulations were founded on experience. As a result of coming from his part of the country, I am sure he knows about the coal mining industry when horses were used underground. He must be aware of the fact that when an accident occurred in those days the foreman, superintendent or the man in control of things at the mine was more interested in saving the horses than in saving the employees. There was a pretty good reason for that attitude: It was that horses cost money, but employees came free.
Those are the kinds of things which existed in the early days, but because of public demand and the conscientious approach of politicans safety regulations have been devised. We must draw upon our experience in the shipping industry to promulgate regulations for the safe operation of ships in order so far as possible to protect the sailors who work on those ships. We must cut down these accidents as much as possible, so that lives are not lost as the result of unsafe acts or carelessness.
For these reasons it is vitally important, in this case as in others that the commission be given the authority to inquire into not only the causes of the accident but the reasons for the loss of life. It must also have the authority to fix responsibility for that loss of life.
We must keep in mind those who are now widows and orphans because of the loss of these ten sailors in the Manseau 101 accident. Compensation in terms of money must be paid to the survivors because that is the only way compensation can be made. We cannot bring back to life individuals who were killed. Society must compel those who are

responsible to meet in some way or other their obligation to accept responsibility for the loss of life, and to contribute to the economic welfare of the widows and orphans left behind.
On the basis of compensation legislation throughout this nation, pensions are paid to widows and orphans of individuals who have lost their lives while on the job. For this reason we must have formal inquiries into these accidents and into the reasons for the loss of life. These inquiries must fix responsibility. There have been conflicts in the application of the provisions of the Canada Shipping Act and the various compensation acts of the provinces. I do not know whether these conflicts have ever been resolved, but I know they did exist. On the west coast, so far as fishing vessels are concerned, the compensation board is precluded from engaging in any safety inspection because this matter comes under the Canada Shipping Act and the federal authority.
It is my understanding that the federal government does not engage very extensively in accident prevention inspection programs, but leaves this to steamship inspection regulations. I also understand that the federal government concerns itself only to a minor degree with safety factors and working conditions of employees on the ships.
I leave the subject there, in the hope that the minister will realize the vital importance that must be attached to the loss of life, and will give some clear, concise and full explanation not only as to what he intends to do in respect of the Manseau 101, but in respect of future accidents as well.


An hon. Member:: Are you referring to the new minister?


Frank Howard: I do not care whether it is the old minister, the new minister or the future minister, but someone should make a statement of policy in this regard.
[DOT] (12:30 p.m.)


Mr. Gauthier:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to take advantage of the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Transport to call the minister's attention to some faults in the line which is of interest to us, that is the Montreal-Chambord and Chambord-Dolbeau line.
Allow me first to recognize the good work done by the minister in previous years when I would go to his office to plead for the Saguenay-Lake St. John railway. I think that,
November 25, 1966

thanks to his repeated representations to the C.N.R., we succeeded at least in keeping what we already had, namely our C.N.R. stations. As a matter of fact, when practically a third of our stations were stated for closing, we succeeded in keeping them for at least a few years. I feel that the minister is to be thanked for that and I wish to congratulate him.
Also we succeeded in keeping our passenger coach from Chambord to Dolbeau and I feel that if the minister had not intervened in time, when the people in Quebec wanted to abolish that section of the passenger service and provide us with a bus service, that part of the service would have been abolished.
I think that the people in the area are very satisfied and the minister will realize that we were right at that time and the years to come will show him that we were right in wanting to keep that passenger coach, because of the tidy income which our region brings to the C.N.R. in freight traffic. That was shown to him by the financial reports of companies such as Domtar, Gagnon & Freres, and five or six other industries which use the C.N.R. service.
I wish to point out also that the minister was very effective about the restaurant in Chambord, which had been closed definitely, although it is a transit point for the two regions. After getting in touch with the C.N.R. authorities, the minister secured the immediate re-opening of that restaurant to the great satisfaction of the people throughout the region.
I think that something was done also with regard to safety; there is still much to be done and I am sure that the minister is aware of it. There is no need to mention all those things one by one, but I simply want to say it in passing to keep from being accused of criticizing only and to prove that we keep our eyes open and see what a minister does in our region.
I would like to deal with another matter, and that is the quality of ordinary coaches. I simply want to call the attention of the minister to that because we had-and I like to say it-for about a year or a year and a half a very clean coach which the personnel tried very hard to keep clean, to such an extent that in our area one is not even allowed to put one's feet on the seat. As soon as a woman would put her feet on a seat, the man in charge would come and very politely give her a piece of paper to put under her feet.
We kept that car somewhat like the apple of our eye. It was the cleanest car in the area.
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Now, about a month ago, they simply took it away and replaced it with a loathsome, dirty, torn-up and soiled car. I think it is a car which had been scrapped in Montreal and which was subsequently sent to our area.
Let the minister be assured that it is no encouragement for the staff who endeavoured to keep that car perfectly clean. Therefore, I ask the minister to make representations with C.N.R. authorities, to obtain, not other people's cars, but rather our own car that our people, our authorities, the C.N.R. staff made efforts to keep incomparably clean. The people of our area would be very grateful if it came back immediately and if they had the car which served them for almost one year.
The same holds true for sleeping cars. I think there is a lot of room for improvement in this regard because, without saying that the one we now have is good only for scrapping, I would say it is not doing its job of transporting people-


Jean-Luc Pepin: Human persons.


Charles-Arthur Gauthier: -human persons.
I believe the minister should point out to persons responsible-some cleaning up can be done, we can see very clean cars on other lines, like Quebec-Montreal, Quebec-Ottawa, Quebec-Toronto-the fact that people in our area are not more stupid than elsewhere and are simply asking to be served the way other people are.
As regards the staff, sir, we are generally satisfied at present with those mainly responsible, although there still exist some abuses. As we say, they still put one over on us from time to time, by placing in our cars people who cannot speak French. On my last trip, and this may surprise the hon. minister, there was a person in charge of the train, a young man, who had been hired recently and who could not even speak one word of French. The population in our area is 98 per cent French. This may be an oversight on the part of Canadian National authorities, but I think such a mistake should not be repeated and the minister should make sure that bilingual people are hired, at least in our area.
As regards the other question-I do not intend to deal at length with this subject, as we have only three hours at our disposal and I would like my colleagues to have the opportunity to say a few words-I am referring to the cost of berths in sleeping cars, I think we should bring this little trick to the attention of parliament. I say it is a little trick, because when we reserved a berth some time ago, we

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used to pay $4.50, $5 and now we have to pay $9 and we are told that the meal is included in the price of the berth.
Now, Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact, no meals are served in my area. We get aboard the train at Chambord at ten o'clock, half past ten, and at Chambord or Dolbeau we pay the price of the berth and meal and we arrive in Montreal at seven o'clock in the morning. The dining car opens at eight o'clock. The last time, I had to rush at a quarter to 7 and I finally got a cup of coffee. It seems it was the last one, since about ten people came after me and were told that there was no more coffee.
I believe that an increase of $3.50 for a cup of coffee that we never get is a little trick that is unpardonable.
The people are complaining, and I think they are justified in doing so. Once again, I call the minister's attention to this point. If meals cannot be served-anyway, it is too early to serve breakfast, since we reach Montreal at seven o'clock, or at 10 minutes to 7-let them reduce the price of the ticket instead of including these famous meals which are never served in the price of a sleeping-car ticket.
Finally, since winter is coming, I should like to say a word about locomotives. Hon. members will remember that I made a speech about these locomotives last year. I went to see the minister in his office and, since it was almost spring, we agreed that the same locomotive should be kept.
The locomotive used in the summer cannot logically and safely be used in winter on account of our climate and the amount of snowfall. As soon as there is a little snow storm, the small locomotive we have at present has no visibility. I talked about my own experiences last year. I was not talking through my hat, and there have also been complaints from the authorities saying that the engineer could go on for ten or twenty miles without seeing anything at all, not even railway crossings. Since we have locomotives made for this climate which go up to Chibougamau, it would be quite easy to give us a similar engine.
I hope this is enough to bring this point to the attention of the minister. I speak about this rather early in the year, because there is no snow yet, and if the Canadian National cannot give us the locomotive we want all year round, let them use it during the worst three or four winter months and go back to the old locomotive in the summer.
Once more, I am confident that the minister is concerning himself with our area this year. Unfortunately, some local newspapers have

stated that we are doing nothing, that the Canadian National equipment is completely dilapidated and that there is no service. Well, no. We should not make things worse than they are. I believe that something has been accomplished; however, a lot remains to be done, and I would ask the minister to kindly call the attention of the Canadian National authorities to the situation, so that they may improve our railway system.
[DOT] (12:40 p.m.)


Mr. Deachman:: Mr. Chairman, before item 1 of the minister's estimates is passed I wish to make reference to a few points which will be largely of interest to people interested in the Vancouver harbour. I think the recent announcement of the minister when he was in Vancouver that the boundaries of the harbour of Vancouver would be extended southward along the coast to the 49th parallel of the United States boundary was a welcome piece of news for all those who are interested in the welfare of Vancouver harbour. This simply means that the department is following the policy of the authority on local development, so that as the harbour grows, and develops its capacity for the handling of bulk commodities, the jurisdiction of the National Harbours Board will be there in advance of that development. There has been considerable talk in Vancouver and in the whole of British Columbia that enormous bulk loading facilities will be built on the coast between the inside harbour of Vancouver and the 49th parallel south of Vancouver harbour. This simply means that facilities will be developed there, perhaps by the province of British Columbia itself. This has given rise to much speculation as to just where the jurisdiction for harbour facilities lies.
Of course the jurisdiction lies with the National Harbours Board, and the minister's announcement cleared up that matter for anyone who is interested. It in no way hampers the development, either by British Columbia or by private interests, of harbour facilities within the jurisdiction of the National Harbours Board, because I am sure the minister and his department would welcome those developments; but it does make it very certain for all time as to where the jurisdiction lies. This is a considerable step forward.
The day may come, and none too soon, when Vancouver might be the site of harbour berths capable of handling the super vessels which are now being built, largely in Japan for the handling of bulk commodities. These
November 25, 1966

vessels range in size from 100,000 to 200,000 tons and sometimes exceed even that tonnage. These are one-purpose vessels which move from one berth on one side of the ocean to another berth on another side. They are specifically prepared for that purpose and they move perhaps only one or two commodities between the two berths that are prepared for them. If such developments come, and I hope they will, they will in no way reflect upon the capability of the inner harbour of Vancouver to handle an ever increasing volume of tonnage and indeed to handle much larger vessels than are now entering that harbour.
It was also very welcome news to learn that the National Harbours Board had acquired within the inner harbour the long disputed C.P.R. lands, because this will enable the board to expand greatly its interest in the harbour of Vancouver. As I have said in the house before, the harbour of Vancouver is the only one of the major National Harbours Board ports which is not wholly or almost wholly owned by the federal government and under development by it, so that the additional acquisition of lands from the C.P.R. in the area of the best deep-water berths in Vancouver harbour is very welcome. It presages further development, such as we have seen in the National Harbours Board owned wharves on the harbour, which are the best facilities we have in the harbour of Vancouver. I hope that before the estimates are passed the minister may be able to give us a summary of the proposals for the development of the lands which have been acquired from the C.P.R.
It was also welcome news that grain handling facilities are improving, although I think anyone who has taken any interest in the development of grain handling out of the port of Vancouver during the last few years would probably want to say that it is not enough. However it is certainly very encouraging to see that, for example, some jetties have been extended to a length of 750 feet to accommodate the very long vessels which are now loading at grain elevators in the port of Vancouver. Formerly these vessels could only load through some of their holds, because the jetties were not long enough for vessels of that dimension. Consequently the quick loading of these vessels and their capability of turning around quickly was impeded by the limited equipment of the harbour.
We were very glad to see the development of the elevator on the north shore of the
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harbour and to note that engineering is undei way for the construction of a C.N.R. bridge, which will be close to and parallel with the Second Narrows bridge, to bring another rail line or a series of them to the north shore, because the north shore of Vancouver harbour is developing into a very important bulk and grain loading terminal.
I think all these developments around the harbour of Vancouver must eventually mean that this harbour will have to acquire some kind of harbour railway so that interswitching from the north to the south shore and the movement of cars in the lower mainland will be under a co-ordinated single authority.
[DOT] (12:50 p.m.)
Five railways enter the lower mainland, the old B.C. Electric Railway, the Great Northern Railway, the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Pacific Great Eastern. Those five railways, switching cars among one another often with great delay, face a great problem in the movement of commodities and in the efficient handling of commodities on the lower mainland. Certainly we would handle grain more efficiently if we had a major joint yard, handling cars in the grain trade and moving them efficiently to the harbour elevators. Suggestions along these lines have been made many times. That would require bringing together the several railways which serve the lower mainland and organizing them perhaps into a union company. This could be brought about, in time, by the intervention of the crown, the Minister of Transport, or some agency of the minister which would encourage such development, and thereby bring about the orderly handling of commodities on the lower mainland of British Columbia. In that port the dry tonnage of goods shipped and handled this year will far exceed the dry tonnage handled in any other port in Canada. For the development of the port we shall need assistance, to allow its expansion.
I want to talk a little about pollution and debris in the harbour. Over the years this has been increasing, and it is something which various agencies of the Department of Transport, which are responsible for this, have dealt with and attempted to suppress. It is evident to anybody looking at the harbour, and seeing the quantities of floating chips, bark, logs, oil and junk that wash back and forth in the harbour, as well as outside in English Bay, thus spoiling properties and boats, and fouling propellers of pleasure craft, that the job of controlling debris in our major

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harbours, and particularly in the great harbour I refer to, is not being done well enough. Debris is not under control.
What is being done by the federal government to step up debris control? I ask this because it is absolutely shocking-and 1 think I speak for members on both sides of the house interested in that great harbour-to see that debris. I say something must be done. And more must be done than has been done, whatever have been the efforts of the federal government or other agencies, if we are to control the pollution and debris washing back and forth in Vancouver harbour.
I pass on now to mention briefly another problem which came to my desk recently, through corresponding with businessmen in the city of Vancouver. I refer to air service to the prairies. What is happening is this: The air services which comprise our major airlines, and which serve western Canada, are centered in eastern Canada. I presume that those heading Air Canada tend to look on eastern Canada as the centre of the universe, and to regard air transport as stemming from that great centre. But the west coast is developing into a great metropolitan area, and more and more the city of Vancouver is serving the interior of the continent and the prairies particularly with all kinds of services. Businessmen increasingly are moving back and forth between the coast and the prairies.
Businessmen tell me that it is difficult to arrange air trips enabling them to move efficiently to the prairies and back to the coast, without losing valuable time. I know that those looking into the matter have been in touch with the minister, with the air lines and with the mayors and chambers of commerce on the prairie to see what can be done.
I do not think the matter is being looked into by Air Canada as effectively as it ought to be and I urge the minister to take the matter in hand, to get hold of Mr. McGregor, and ask him if indeed the whole universe is to be served out of eastern Canada, or if he could look at other growing centres in Canada, and the growing air traffic developing there, and originate more flights to the prairies which will be effective in helping western businessmen.
I will not say any more on the estimates now, except that for the Department of Transport, in its work on the west coast, I believe the year has been an effective one. But I would not want the minister to feel that the west coast is developing so slowly that the pace of the department is sufficient to keep up with it. I urge the minister to keep an eye on

what we are doing. We shall need his ever increasing services.


Mr. Pascoe:: The hon. member for Kin-dersley, Mr. Chairman, dealt in his speech with the points I had intended to bring up, so that I will not repeat what has been said. But I do wish to refer particularly, as he referred, to possible assistance for local airstrips. I hope the minister will agree to the request for more information about this assistance. We want to know where these airstrips are now, and I suspect Saskatchewan has been neglected very much in this regard.
Several communities in Moose Jaw-Lake Centre are interested in developing local airstrips, particularly because of the potential in the potash industry. I refer specifically to the area of Watrous. At the request of the mayor and local officials of Watrous I secured all the information I could about assistance to local airstrips, and I passed that information on. According to reports I received, there was so much red tape that they finally proceeded on their own, and they built a fairly good airstrip through their own efforts. I do not criticize the department too much, but I think it could make it easier for communities to develop their local airstrips. I ask again that the minister deal with this matter when he replies. I do not think sufficient assistance has been given to airstrips. Four or five other areas in my constituency are interested in some form of air service to help develop the potash industry.
About the rail crossing fund, seaway tolls, rail line abandonment and passenger service I shall not say anything at this time, but I give the minister fair warning that when Bill No. C-231 comes up for clause by clause study, those matters affecting the establishment of the Canadian Transportation Commission will be brought up and talked about to considerable length. I intend to take part in the debate on that measure.
[DOT] (1:00 p.m.)
The proposal I wish to make now does not wholly affect the Department of Transport, but the department is involved. It is concerned with the relocation of an airport. Before I go further, let me say that I am in complete agreement with what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra about the need for improved air services on the prairies.
I represent the city of Moose Jaw and a very large part of the city of Regina. The proposal I wish to put forward now has been advanced by officials in Regina, and it relates
November 25. 1966

to the possibility of establishing an industrial corridor between Moose Jaw and Regina. This aspect does not directly concern the Department of Transport, but there is a part of it which does. The proposal would involve the relocation of the airport half way between Moose Jaw and Regina as part of a scheme to encourage industries to establish themselves between Moose Jaw and Regina where all the necessary conditions for industrial development exist, including highways, railways, gas, water and power services. What it is hoped to establish is something along the lines of the industrial corridor between Toronto and Hamilton.
The present airport is within the city of Regina. I say this advisedly, because on two sides residential homes have been built right up to the perimeter and there is little possibility of the runways being used by large jet planes when these are brought into service in the future. As I have suggested, this idea is not my own entirely; it has been advanced by prominent officials in both Regina and Moose Jaw. The idea would be to relocate the airport half way between the two cities. Moose Jaw is not at present served by an air service and the people of that city are disturbed about having to travel to Regina, 42 miles away, to board a plane for passenger travel.
The proposal which I have briefly outlined has been advanced, as I say, by both cities and I draw it to the minister's attention mainly to let him know that in my opinion it is a feasible idea and one which should be considered very carefully before any further expansion takes place at Regina airfield. Future capital investment there would, of course, make it more difficult to relocate.
I venture to say that the minister will be hearing a great deal more about this subject. I shall be speaking about it. He will also be hearing from officials in Regina and Moose Jaw earlier now, perhaps, than might otherwise have been the case. Speaking on my own responsibility, let me say that in my opinion the idea is a very good one and I hope the minister will look at it closely when he is considering further development in the area. As Minister of Transport, he will no doubt be interested to know that a four-lane highway is being built between Moose Jaw and Regina and that within the next few days 25 miles of the 42 miles of road will be open to traffic, if they are not already open. I see great prospects for this area, and, for the moment, I leave this matter for the minister's consideration.
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Mr. Olson:: There are, of course a number of matters which are of vital interest to me and to my constituents in connection with the estimates of the Department of Transport which are now before us.
The problem of passenger train service has not been resolved completely to our satisfaction. However, the C.P.R. aspect has been referred to a committee, so I shall not discuss that subject, now. Then again, all the new proposals in Bill C-231 are of vital concern to the area of Canada which I represent, but I will refrain from discussing any part of what is contained in that measure until it is returned to the house.
I wish to speak briefly, today, about two matters which are not under active consideration by any other committee of this house. The first concerns the transport of grain from the wheat growing areas of Canada into export position. I am pleased to see the Minister of Finance here because I know he is familiar with this subject.
I have raised this question on the orders of the day. I have placed it before the Minister of Trade and Commerce who is now responsible to parliament for the Canadian wheat board. Every time I bring it up, no matter which minister replies, I am always told that the movement of grain out of the prairies to export position is progressing in a highly satisfactory way; that the volume dealt with is greater than last year; that we should be very pleased, and so on. I am not disagreeing with this. I want to commend the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the railroads on the job they have done from March 30 to the end of July for the last crop year, and during this crop year as far as total volume is concerned.
Nevertheless, there is another problem. No matter how highly one can commend all those concerned on the total volume moved, there is still the wide disparity which exists between quotas at points which are, after all, very close together. One cannot make the argument that the total volume transported is high when one point is on a quota of one bushel per acre and another, 50 miles away, is on a four bushel quota.
My plea today is that something should be done to remedy such inequities. I am not proposing that the government should set up a transport controller with full power to direct the railways. But it seems to me that if justice is to be done we should see to it, perhaps by way of a co-ordinating committee, that these

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disparities do not continue to arise every year as is the case in my riding. I wish to make this very clear: I am not questioning the total volume moved. I am questioning the way in which box cars or grain cars are allocated to the various points, and I am asking that each farmer should have reasonably equitable access to the market in the months between September and December. We know that by the end of the crop year these quotas are usually evened out. I can appreciated that there is good and sound reason why they cannot be completely even throughout the shipping season. My difficulty is that they get too far apart. Why should one point be on a four bushel quota while another only 15 miles away is on a one bushel quota? That is too much for farmers to understand.
I am making no criticism of the Canadian Wheat Board. As I understand it, the wheat board has no authority to order railroads to put cars at certain points.
[DOT] (1:10 p.m.)
In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, the Canadian Wheat Board can only open the quota at a specific shipping point if and when there is space, and the only way to get space at a shipping point is for the railways to put cars there to haul out some grain. This is not a criticism of the wheat board. I am sure it opens the quotas as quickly as the space permits, but it has no power except by way of suggestion, to see that a point that is very low so far as quota is concerned is given extra consideration. This is a problem, and the question is what to do about it.
I am not suggesting that we give some traffic or freight co-ordinator full authority to direct the railways to do this, but I think that the co-ordinating committee which the Minister of Finance set up, I believe in the fall of 1965, served a useful purpose. There were representatives on it from the terminal elevators, the railways, the wheat board, and some of the co-operative or line terminals. Following the announcement of the setting up of that committee, the situation improved.
On November 16, in answer to a question of mine, the Minister of Transport, as recorded at page 9958 of Hansard, said:
I think the arrangements which are in existence at the present time are less formal than they were last year.
I was referring to the co-ordinating committee. If that committee could serve a useful purpose in providing more uniform quotas, I would urge the minister to set it up again to examine the difference in quotas at various

points and see if it could convince the railways that they would serve the whole area better by concentrating the allocation of cars at some points with very low quotas. I make that plea to the Minister of Finance and to the Minister of Transport, and I am sure they will try to do something about it.
The question of air services on the prairies has been raised by a number of hon. members. The Minister of Transport knows I have asked him a number of times when we are going to get some regular scheduled air service into Medicine Hat. The minister will recall that it was a long, difficult battle, or at least that it took a series of negotiations to get the Department of Transport to improve the runway at Medicine Hat. That runway was built for a wartime training base and could not take care of aircraft larger than a DC-3. As a matter of fact, once or twice even a DC-3 went through it. But now we have a new runway. We have had it for two or three years, but we have no air service to make use of it.
I plead with the minister to use his very persuasive influence on Air Canada to give some consideration to providing a regular service into Medicine Hat, and from Medicine Hat to Calgary and Edmonton. Particularly connections should be provided with the trans-continental runs from Calgary to Vancouver, and from Calgary to Winnipeg, Toronto, and eastwards.
If the minister is unable to convince Air Canada to do this, then my alternative plea is that he try to make an arrangement between Air Canada and the regional carriers whereby passengers can buy tickets from Medicine Hat to Toronto or to Vancouver, depending on which direction they are travelling. I am not going to talk about Red Deer, even though it has no airport, because it is 100 miles closer to air service, but I would point out that a one way economy ticket from Edmonton to Ottawa costs $96. But from Medicine Hat, which is closer to Ottawa, a passenger has to pay $16 more to get to Calgary, and in the process has to buy two tickets.
The small regional carrier operating there is to a large degree acting as a feeder line for Air Canada, and some consideration should be given to providing a single ticket from Medicine Hat for runs west, northwest or east from Calgary. Under the new regional air policy, there should be a regulation under which one can buy a ticket from any point in Canada to any other point in Canada, a ticket that will be honoured by all air lines. This is
November 25, 1966

already done by agreement in the international field, and surely it there can be such an agreement among international carriers it should be possible to have a similar agreement within Canada.
I would also like to ask the minister how we are getting along with the new regional air policy. Have there been many applications made under it? I would like to know if the air line now serving Medicine Hat, and other air lines serving other areas in Alberta, have applied for the benefits, or whatever one wants to call them, provided by this new policy. If they have not, then would the minister explain to the committee, so that the country and the air lines may know, the procedure they should follow to avail themselves of this new policy?
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I just say that a city of 30,000 people is large enough to warrant some air service. It is far enough away from other major cities to have its own service. In many respects air service is the most convenient form of passenger traffic for it. We have been waiting for several years to be provided with a satisfactory service connecting with the other major cities in western Canada, and particularly with transcontinental runs. I hope some positive action is soon taken so that we do not have to go on waiting and waiting. The new regional air policy is a step in the right direction, but we would like to see better effects from it in the city of Medicine Hat and the surrounding district.


Mr. Habel:: On behalf of the constituency which I have the honour to represent, I want to protest most emphatically against the treatment given by the Canadian National Railways, to its population and especially to those residing in that part of the riding between Kapuskasing and Hearst. The transcontinental railway line was begun with the hope that it would open up a new country, and in effect it did. From the start of service on the transcontinental line up until 1932 the district from Cochrane to Hearst, all of the western district of the province of Quebec and the northeastern district of the province of Ontario, enjoyed the services of train No. 1 and train No. 2 travelling between Quebec and Winnipeg. But in 1932 this service was discontinued and these trains have been operating on the line between Ottawa, North Bay and Winnipeg.
When that service was removed, a Budd car was provided from Cochrane to Hearst. After making many representations to the C.N.R., it finally decided to give us a train with a steam
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locomotive, an express car and a passenger coach.
[DOT] (1:20 p.m.)
In the late 1950's I remember very well writing to the president of the C.N.R. to ask him whether this was not one of the first coaches the C.N.R. had ever used on its line. It was a wooden car, heated with a coal furnace. It was not fit for human beings. Finally in 1962, with the help of public bodies such as municipal councils, boards of trade and chambers of commerce, we convinced the C.N.R. that a good train service between Toronto and Hearst was needed. In the month of October, 1962, we were provided with a direct train service from Toronto to Hearst and vice versa. Then, in 1965, the C.N.R. made an application to the Board of Transport Commissioners asking that the service between Kapuskasing and Hearst be discontinued. At this point, I should like to thank the minister for the assistance he gave in this matter. The Board of Transport Commissioners agreed to hold hearings in the district to receive the brief protesting curtailment of that train service. Sittings were held at Hearst and Kapuskasing. In April representatives held a sitting at Hearst and Kapuskasing. In June one was held at Kapuskasing. At both sittings briefs were presented by the chambers of commerce, the municipal councils and other business interests. The point which is of interest to me is that whenever a brief was to be presented at those sittings, a copy of it had to be sent beforehand to the C.N.R. This enabled the C.N.R. lawyer to prepare his defence in such a way that we would not be able to answer it successfully.
It is very easy to juggle figures. As a result of juggling figures the C.N.R. managed to convince the board the service ought to be discontinued and replaced by a bus service. I, Mr. Chairman, am one who thinks the time has come when commissions and boards have too much authority compared to the person who is elected to serve the people he represents.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: I was greatly disappointed indeed when I was informed by the Board of Transport Commissioners that it had agreed to give the C.N.R. permission to curtail that train service.
At this point I should like to mention that in the district I represent, because of the great industrialization and the wages paid, the people in this area are among those groups who are contributing to the national revenue of

November 25, 1966
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this country to the greatest extent. I hesitate to say this, but I believe the people of my district are among those who pay the highest rate of income tax. It seems to me, in a region such as this where the potential is so great and where the rate of development in the future is going to increase rather than decrease, the C.N.R. should reconsider their argument in respect of the differentiation between freight service and passenger service revenues. They tell us that although they might be making good money from the freight business, they are losing on the passenger service.
If there were no people to operate the industries in this area, and if there were no people living there, there would be no freight to ship. So, in all fairness, it seems to me that the C.N.R. should consider both sides of the story and give consideration to the needs of the people in this district from which the company obtains a good deal of its freight revenue. They should give more consideration than they appear to have given in the past. Just a few days ago I had a phone call from Hearst. The C.N.R., which had promised to give the best possible service by buses, now has advised the municipal council of the town of Hearst that only the hand luggage will be transported on those buses. In fact any other baggage will have to be shipped at the expense of the passenger. He will have to pay the transportation from Hearst to Kapus-kasing, and vice versa. At Kapuskasing, where they had promised they would continue the very good service we had since 1962, already they have replaced the pullman car with one which has compartments and roomettes only. There are no berths in this pullman car. I have a letter from the municipal council of the town of Kapuskasing stating that because this pullman car has been changed, the fare from Kapuskasing to Toronto has been increased by $11.
If this is the way the C.N.R. is going to treat the population in northern Ontario, then I believe it is time they should tell us they want to do away with all passenger service; then we would know where we stand. It would not surprise me if, in the back of their minds, they have the intention of decreasing rather than increasing the passenger service so that they would be justified in applying to the Board of Transport Commissioners for the discontinuation of the service between Por-quis Junction and Kapuskasing. Then, we would be left with no service at all.
[Mr. Habel.l
Mr. Chairman, I know that the Minister of Transport has shown an interest in the northern part of the province, but it seems to me with	the	authority	given to these
boards-whether it be the Board of Transport Commissioners, the Air Transport Board or others-we seem to be forgetting the people who are elected to represent their constituents. I must say quite frankly that I even hesitated to take part in this debate. I am not ashamed to say I have reached the point where I have asked myself whether it is worth putting our case before the government which might be well intentioned but is blocked by those boards and commissions which have more authority than the government itself. I also could have mentioned the situation in respect of freight rates. I have had many complaints about the high freight rates which are applicable in northern Ontario.
[DOT] (1:30 p.m.)
These high freight rates apply particularly to the Kapuskasing and Cochrane areas. Let me give you an example of the result. We can purchase gasoline here in Ottawa for 39.8 cents a gallon but in Cochrane and Kapuskasing we must pay 54 to 56 cents a gallon. I could also use the example of the lumber industry in our area. These companies have to compete with companies in other districts, yet they have a hard time convincing the C.N.R. that they must have lower rates in order to keep this industry running full time. They often have trouble in obtaining a reasonable rate to ship the wood chips which result from their operations.
Let me also refer to problems in respect of the maintenance of stations. At Smooth Rock Falls there is a large pulp and paper mill which added a $14 million extension about a year ago. The station happens to be located two and a half miles from the town. There is no service whatever at that station on Saturday and Sunday. There is not even a telephone that can be used by passengers to call a taxi. The local chamber of commerce has worked hard to solve this problem. They have met with representatives of the C.N.R. and I have written many letters about it.
I have taken this opportunity to let the minister and the Department of Transport know about our feelings. In conclusion, I protest strongly on behalf of those I represent because of these problems. All we are asking is to be treated as Canadians on an equal basis with Canadians in other parts of this country.
November 25, 1966


Frank Howard: Would the hon. member answer a question?


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: Yes.


Frank Howard: First, I should like to commend him tor rallying against the C.N.R. in respect of having removed the main line, such as it was, from that part of Ontario. Will he fight with equal fervour against the government relocating the main line of trans-Canada pipe lines from that same area?


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: As far as the trans-Canada pipe line is concerned, and I am glad the hon. member asked me this question, I must say in all frankness that I do not belong to that party which takes pleasure in trying to draw blood out of wounds.


Mr. Souiham:: Mr. Chairman, I welcome this opportunity to make a few brief remarks during our consideration of item No. 1 of the estimates of the Department of Transport. I realize there is a time limit, so my remarks will be brief.
I feel duty-bound, because I am a member of the standing committee of this house on transport and communications, to make a few references to problems pertaining to transportation in Canada. I am sure the members of this house, and the public in general, realize that this standing committee has devoted most of its time during the last couple of months to hearing briefs presented by numerous individuals and organizations regarding Bill No. C-231 based on the MacPherson royal commission report. Like the hon. member for Medicine Hat, I am not going to refer to this bill in detail because there is a time and place for everything, but I look forward to the discussion of this matter when it comes before the house.
Yesterday I was very impressed by the evidence given by Dr. Ernest W. Williams, Jr., professor of transport, and Dr. George H. Borts. They strongly suggested that before the provisions of Bill C-231 are Anally put into effect the minister should consider several suggestions presented to that committee by those two competent gentlemen.
The hon. member for Medicine Hat also referred to something of great importance to people in western Canada, particularly those in farming areas; that is, the movement of grain to marketable positions. He referred at some length to the allocation of boxcars, but there is one other factor in this regard to which consideration should be given.
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The railway companies must be aware of the fact that boxcars used for handling grain have become obsolete. The same boxcars have been used for the last 20, 30 or even a greater number of years with very little change in technological development. The roadbeds of today are of such a character that much heavier loads can be carried.
Boxcars used for the handling of grain have a capacity of some 2,000 to 3,000 bushels. When we consider what has been done with regard to the transportation of minerals, we And that very modern techniques have been adopted. I do not understand why the railway companies have overlooked the possibility of improving boxcars for handling grain. These boxcars could be enlarged to a capacity of between 5,000, 6,000 or perhaps even 10,000 bushels. They could be designed with hopper bottoms and collapsible tops that could be opened to facilitate loading. With the increased capacity and the more efficient design, the cost of handling grain would be less and the efficiency would be greater. Perhaps this could be taken into consideration by members of the standing committee when it is drafting its recommendations to the department.
A previous speaker referred to airport renovation and assistance by the Department of Transport to various municipal and secondary airports. I agree with his remarks, and I have in mind those areas in Canada where airports were built during wartime in conjunction with our air training program. A number of these have been turned over to municipal bodies for maintenance and use by local Aying clubs. The airport at the city of Estevan falls into this category, but the municipal officials have been waiting with great patience for years for the government to make up its mind what assistance it is going to give for the maintenance and renovation of this airport. Many of these airports are of vital concern to local areas. They could be of importance to our national defence effort at some future date. Vast amounts of money were spent in developing them, and I think it would be a wilful waste if the government were not to expedite its assistance to these various municipalities.
I should like to refer in passing to rail line abandonments. I have on the order paper, under item 48, Bill C-86 which deals with a moratorium in respect of rail line abandonments. In all fairness I must say that I am pleased, as I think most western Canadians are, with the action the government took prior to the passage of Bill C-231, to provide a

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moratorium in respect of rail line abandonments. This has eased the tension and concern which has been expressed in many areas in the last several years regarding the wholesale abandonment of rail lines.
[DOT] (1:40 p.m.)
Naturally, we will go into the question of policy when dealing with the legislation under Bill C-231. There will be considerable opposition in certain areas to the proposed abandonments, but by and large this policy has been a step forward. I come from an area which had a great deal of experience in the matter of rail line abandonment before the MacPherson commission made its report. I am pleased that the goverment has taken this action. I hope that in some small measure I was able to contribute to the decision, because I put enough statements and comments on the record of the House of Commons, regarding this problem as members of the transportation committee will know.
The hon. member for Kindersley has spoken at some length on the question of tolls on the St. Lawrence seaway. I hope the government will soon make a final decision in this respect and will allay the fears that are still in the minds of many western Canadians with respect to increasing these tolls. I think this is an area in which the decision should be made as soon as possible. This question does not only affect people in western Canada but those adjacent to the St. Lawrence seaway and others using that great waterway.
I should like to make a few remarks regarding passenger services on the railways. We are approaching the Yuletide season. I recently had experience in trying to obtain reservations on the railway. I found the railways are having difficulty in meeting requests for passenger reservations. There still seems to be a hesitancy on the part of the C.P.R. to introduce an efficient reservation system and provide services that are acceptable to the people.
I was naturally quite concerned to learn of the difficulties experienced in this field. I had the privilege, as a member of the transportation committee, of travelling with the committee when it made a survey of passenger services last May. At that time we travelled from Vancouver east to Fort William and listened to the representations of many citizens of Canada with respect to these services. I was disappointed when the railroad decided in complying with the committee's request to reinstate at least a partial service for our centennial year, they did not come back to the

original title of that train and call it "The Dominion" rather than "Expo '67". This leaves the impression they are providing the service only temporarily, and are still determined to discontinue it after the centennial year. I believe there is a great deal of support for the retention of this service, not only from the people of western Canada but Canadians all across this country. They want adequate passenger rail service provided for those people who wish to use that service rather than air service.
I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra with respect to the schedules of Air Canada. The hon. member for Saskatoon and myself had this problem brought to our attention by letter. We brought it to the attention of the government on several occasions by asking questions in the house. I had the pleasure of discussing the matter with the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, because the complaint originated in his riding. He and I agreed that something should be done. I suggested to the hon. member at that time that he was the man most responsible for raising this question because people in his area were making the complaints.
I think there has been too great a tendency on the part of Air Canada to concentrate their services in eastern Canada, the larger centres in this country and the most heavily populated points. In this connection, I remember the debates in the house with respect to the removal of the aircraft servicing facilities from Winnipeg to Montreal. There has been too great a tendency to ignore western Canada when originating services and schedules. One man told me that he could get from Vancouver to Mexico City faster than he could get from there to Regina or Saskatoon. I believe Mr. McGregor should be admonished into taking a serious look at the new scheduling of Air Canada services. I raise this matter for the minister's consideration because it has created a certain amount of ill will and discontent in western Canada. Our business people in central and western Canada feel that they are being neglected or discriminated against in this regard.
I should like now to discuss, in concluding, the grade crossing fund which falls within the jurisdiction of the Department of Transport. There have been many, many instances in the last few years, and more particularly recently, of serious accidents that have taken place as a result of the lack of proper animated signals and safety devices at level or grade crossings. I think people are becoming more aware as
November 25, 1966

the days go by of the great loss of human resources through, for example, automobile accidents, particularly collisions with trains. The minister and his department should make more money available from the grade crossing fund for the provision of signals and all types of safety devices at our grade crossings. The process of treating applications should be speeded up so those areas that wish to avail themselves of these services and safety devices can obtain assistance as soon as possible.
We had the recent example of the serious accident which occurred at Port Hope. The minister announced to the house that he is looking into this tragedy. This is just one example. I believe this is an area where we have been a little lax. Therefore, I suggest to the minister that he and his officials clear up this area as quickly as possible.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I am going to desert my usual cosmopolitan approach to life and be somewhat parochial for five minutes. First of all, I want to thank the minister for the courteous and complete way in which he has answered any queries I have brought to his direct attention. I appreciate the attention he has paid to my requests. In many instances, I have received not a brief letter but one of some length, which indicates that the minister has gone into the matter quite carefully.
I also wish to thank the deputy minister and staff of the department for their courteous attention to any matters I have brought to their notice. This applies also to the attention paid to matters raised by officials in British Columbia when there is occasionally a meeting in Vancouver, and when they are visiting my constituency.
First of all, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say that owing to the construction of the treaty projects on the Columbia river, many changes will be required in the aids to navigation on that river from the United States border to as far north as Revelstoke. This means that a good many of these aids will have to be relocated.
Traffic by water from the United States from as far south as Portland is increasing rapidly every year. Many of these boats go as far north as Revelstoke. Local traffic is increasing at an even greater rate owing to the growing ownership of pleasure craft and the increasing number of tugs employed in the forest and other industries.
I should like the minister to tell us who is responsible for the cost involved in the relocation of these aids to navigation on the river 23033-656
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and lakes. Perhaps he will also tell us whether any surveys have been carried out with regard to the aids to navigation that will be required when the dams are completed, and what plans are being made for this relocation to take place so that there is no stoppage of navigation over any extended period of time. I should also like to bring to the minister's attention the fact that the relocation of aids to navigation will require the publication of new charts for the river in question.
I now wish to say a word or two about meteorological services. A number of persons in my constituency are weather observers; they make records and forward them to the appropriate department.
[DOT] (1:50 p.m.)
I would like to know how many were employed on this work in Kootenay West and at what annual cost. I might say that the completion of the treaty projects will no doubt cause a change in the climate, both as far as temperature is concerned and as far as rainfall and snowfall are concerned. I discussed this with competent persons who are very interested in the change in climate which occurs from these works of man, such as fiamg on rivers and lakes and things of that type. I do think that after the treaty projects are completed it will provide an opportunity for a competent person within the department to make a particular study of the effect on the climate of the works that have been completed in the area directly affected.
I would also suggest that there are a number of local community groups in the district which are interested in community television satellites. They have done excellent work in this field, and in some cases they have put quite a lot of money into these projects in an effort to bring C.B.C. programs to isolated communities. I do urge that these community groups, who are anxious to develop community satellite programs, receive every technical assistance possible from the minister's technical staff. They have received some in the past which they appreciate very much, and I trust they will receive every consideration in the future.
There is also an interesting development with respect to the improvement of the Nelson airfield in which I understand the city of Nelson, as well as other people in the surrounding areas, are very interested. I understand that the city made proposals some time ago for the transfer of certain land which was held in its name in connection with the Castlegar airfield in return for a grant from

November 25, 1966
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the federal government for the development of the Nelson airport. I do not expect the minister will have time today to reply to these questions, but I would like to know what are the latest developments with respect to the application of the city for assistance in the development of their airport in return for the transfer of their rights in the Castlegar airfield. There are a few other smaller airports being supported as a result of local efforts, such as the ones at Nakusp and Kaslo, and there may be another one proposed. These airfields are developed strictly as the result of the efforts of the village or community concerned and I hope they will be able to receive all the technical assistance possible from the officials of the department.
I know that in a few cases preliminary surveys were made and estimates of costs have been given, as well as some ideas as to the suitability of the site and so on. I do urge that the same assistance be continued for these persons who are playing their part in the development of these smaller airports which are very necessary, particularly in a country such as ours.
Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say at this time. I could go on at much greater length but I know there are a number of other hon. members who would like to say a few words before these estimates are passed.


Mr. Duquei:: Mr. Chairman, although I have discussed, on many occasions in the past, the matter which I want to submit to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill), I should like today to emphasize in particular, a crucial problem, facing not only the riding which I represent, but the whole city of Quebec, a problem which, since 1948, has beeen dealt with, on many occasions, by the municipal authorities as well as the hon. members representing this house, the Quebec East riding. Since 1948, I think that several representations have been made to the Board of Transport Commissioners and to the ministers of transport concerned, so that Quebec city could get rid of that chronic nuisance as we call the grade crossings.
Those who know Quebec city appreciate that all across the town and right in the center, there are eleven grade crossings which clearly paralyse the traffic between the north and the south of Quebec city, that is between the Limoilou and St. Roch districts.
On January 20, 1964, a first request was made to the Board of Transport Commissioners supported by rather good arguments,
[Mr. Herridge.l
asking for the removal of those grade crossings. On June 11, 1964, that same year, a second request was presented to the board and, following that request, arguments and replies provided by the Board of Transport Commissioners, on September 30, 1964, the Quebec municipal authorities asked to appear before the board. On November 16, replying to that request, Mr. Crump, refuted the arguments submitted in the previous request and denied politely the city of Quebec the right to appear before the board. According to the material which I have here with me, the request should not have been denied.
On October 21, 1965, a new request was presented and finally on November 7 last, a letter from Mr. G. P. Miller, which was published in the Quebec newspapers, said that the board could not consider the removal of the grade crossings in Quebec city, on the following grounds: the streets were too narrow and the motor car traffic over the grade crossings should first be controlled by the municipal authorities.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully point out that this argument is not worth very much, if it is considered in its real context. Of course, Quebec city underwent a development similar to that of other cities and when the grade crossings were installed, obviously the traffic at that time was very light and the development to Quebec city from 1920 or 1925, if you wish had not been anticipated as in the case of all the other cities in Canada.
According to an investigation by the Quebec police department, from September 20, 1965 to October 1, and this is a good illustration of the traffic congestion at the grade crossings in Quebec city-I could for instance quote the following figures for September 20, the gates in operation on the eleven grade crossings concerned were raised 32 times for a total loss of time of 32 minutes to the car drivers who had to wait for the train to go by.
On Tuesday, September 21, 38 times, for a total of 52 minutes loss of time; 43 times for 65 minutes on September 22, and on September 23, 40 times for 61 minutes.
I do not wish to quote all these figures, Mr. Chairman, because I am aware of the fact that time for the debate is limited, and I would not like to deprive other members of the house who wish to discuss the subject of an opportunity to do so.
[DOT] (2:00 p.m.)
However, I cannot understand that, in 1966, the Board of Transport Commissioners does
November 25, 1966

not realize the necessity of solving the problem of grade crossings in the city of Quebec. The minister-and I thank him for this
appears to be much better disposed than the board itself since, on November 6 last, I was granted the honour of a special visit on his part in my riding of Quebec East. He wanted to see things for himself and have a look at all those grade crossings.
And I think the minister now understands the problem very well, because he stated that he was willing to co-operate with the city of Quebec authorities and do everything in his power to eliminate those crossings.
I thank the minister once again for being understanding and I feel the problem of grade crossings in Quebec city is crucial. We are no longer in 1920 or in 1940. Quebec city has developed, as well as the transportation services, and I believe it is time we realized that this problem deserves special attention.
It seems obvious that the party most concerned is the Canadian Pacific and that every time the municipal authorities of Quebec city made requests to that company, it always found good excuses in order to avoid solving that problem. I also understand that the city of Quebec has benefited by the advent of the railways and that, at that time, the citizens of Quebec city were no longer settlers and are even less so in 1966.
I believe also that the Canadian Pacific should understand that when its railway tracks were laid in Quebec city, the district of Limoilou did not exist north of those tracks and north of the St. Charles river. The Limoilou district now has some 75,000 inhabitants who ever day-and as indicated in the quotation which I have just given-some thirty times a day are deprived of lines of communication between the southern and northern parts of Quebec city on account of grade crossings and the passage of too many trains.
The most practical solution would be to move the line, the station in the first place, and then to remove the tracks to enable the trains to arrive in a new district of Quebec city, entirely in the western part of the city where fortunately, if this is done in the near future, there are still some available lots to build a fine station and practical access for railway tracks.
Limoilou and Saint-Roch are, of course, most directly involved. I am not now speaking strictly as the member for Quebec East. I would like my words to be considered as reflecting the opinion of the authorities of
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Quebec city, and of all intermediary public bodies which joined the city in making representations in that sense many years ago.
I should like to emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that out of those 11 grade crossings, at least 6 are extremely important. Take the grade crossing on De la Couronne Street or on Dorchester Street, for instance, where 1400 vehicles per hour cross the tracks. Those interruptions cause a line-up of 70 vehicles each time, and that number even reaches 100 on occasion.
At the Dupont Street crossing, traffic is perhaps a little lighter, but it is nevertheless around 600 vehicles per hour. However, interruptions there are more frequent and last longer because marshalling operations are done in that area.
From 8 to 8.30 in the morning, there is an average of three interruptions lasting an average of four and a half minutes, during that single half hour.
Interruptions are more frequent and last longer at peak traffic hours. Saint-Roch in particular, is undergoing a complete change and major projects in what is called area No. 10 are now under way to renovate that district.
With the canalization of the St. Charles river-which has now been approved-it is obvious that those lines which run all along the St. Charles, on the south shore, will prevent the renovation of Saint-Roch unless they are removed.
The federal government is ready to spend over a million dollars for the construction of a dam. The federal and provincial governments, as well as the city of Quebec, are ready to spend huge amounts now and they have agreed to allocate $16 million to the canalization of the St. Charles river.
As members for Quebec and the vicinity, we all want to see that project become a reality and we want to co-operate with the municipal and provincial authorities so that the development of the St. Charles will be a success and the Saint-Roch district will become what we want it to be, a district where people will be proud to live, where apartment houses will be built and where the citizens of Quebec will be happy to go and live.
Those are not dreams, Mr. Chairman, they are projects which are becoming a reality and the C.P.R. tracks which run along the south shore of the river as well as the marshalling yards will just have to be moved from that district if the redevelopment of Saint-Roch;

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and the city of Quebec in general is to be carried out.
Before ending my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out the safety hazard which the level crossing at 22nd Street constitutes in my riding. On Sunday, November 6, the minister was able to see the safety hazard created by that crossing, in view of the fact that five schools and one church are located near it. I am sorry to inform the house that although we did not wish for that to happen and although we deeply regret it, last Wednesday night, a very serious accident occurred at that railway crossing when a young school-boy was struck by a train after school. Fortunately the child was not killed but it is easy to understand that things could have been different. That boy is now in hospital with a fractured leg and a spinal injury and it is not known yet what the results of that accident at the level crossing of 22nd Street will be.
Last Friday, I discussed with the mayor of Quebec city the immediate request which should be made to the Board of Transport Commissioners for the removal of that railway crossing. I trust that this question will be attended to immediately, so that an overhead crossing will be built and the danger which this 22nd Street crossing constitutes will be eliminated.
There had been no accidents so far; an accident occurred this week, and I hope such a tragedy will not be repeated; for that, immediate steps would have to be taken to improve the crossing by means of an overpass, and I trust that the Quebec municipal authorities will bring immediate attention to the request I have submitted to them.
In concluding my comments, I will add that I am pleased to have brought the railway crossing problem to the minister's attention. I think I will suggest to the authorities concerned, and to the public bodies of the city of Quebec, that they seek a new hearing with the Board of Transport Commissioners. I feel that with the necessary information, upon which I do not have time to elaborate today, we may be able to make them realize, once and for all, the necessity of eliminating all railway crossings in the city of Quebec and in Saint-Roch, because they are a crucial affliction and represent a public hazard not only for Quebec city residents but also for the numerous people who visit that picturesque city.


Mr. Sherman:: Mr. Chairman, I had a number of things I wanted to say, but I know the

minister is anxious to speak and I shall condense my remarks.
First of all, I wish to compliment the minister on his enunciation, earlier this fall, of the national air policy with its emphasis and recognition for the first time of the integral role that regional air carriers can and must play in the social and commercial development of a country as large and thinly populated as Canada. We, in Winnipeg south and southern Manitoba in general, welcome the minister's announcement with great enthusiasm. Regional carriers like TransAir are much encouraged by the minister's articulation of this new air policy. We will watch for further evidence of the government's good faith in this respect with great interest in the months immediately ahead.
The provision of incentives and encouragement to regional air carriers is long overdue. In the United States, some 10 of 12 regional air carriers now are operating in the black as a result of the climate of support for these carriers that has been created in that country.
[DOT] (2:10 p.m.)
The only enlightened attitude possible in a country like the United States, and equally in a country like Canada, is an attitude of maximum possible support for the regional carrier. Having said that, I would now like to put a few questions on the record for the minister's consideration.
Merely because we are gratified in my constituency, Winnipeg South, and in my entire section of the country, at the government's new-found enlightenment on this subject of a national air policy and the importance of regional air carriers, the minister should not allow himself to lapse into an attitude of complacency. If he feels he now lives in a state of security as far as Winnipeg and the prairies are concerned, let me hasten to advise him that his impression is a false one.
1 said last February in this house that I felt Winnipeg was being at best ignored, at worst mistreated, in the transportation policies of the present administration, and I cannot see that in the intervening nine months the situation has improved very much. In fact, to some extent, it has deteriorated. Where, for example, are the long-promised escalators at the Winnipeg airport? Travellers at what surely is otherwise one of the finest airports on this continent, still must struggle with their hand baggage up and down long flights of stairs when going back and forth between the landing ramps and the respective waiting rooms at Winnipeg. These escalators, promised long
November 25, 1966

ago, and for which it is my impression financial provision was made long ago, still exist only in the realm of the imagination.
Perhaps the minister's flagging interest in this project could be revived somewhat if he would come out to Winnipeg by air and carry some of his baggage with him. Thousands of air travellers can assure him it is not good exercise; it is just plain inconvenient, and unnecessarily so.
What of the overseas rates by air to and from Winnipeg, a subject which I also discussed nine months ago? Manitoba air travellers are still the victims of what surely must be one of the most anachronistic and discriminatory policies in the whole field of transportation anywhere in the world.
As I pointed out then, a passenger flying from Winnipeg to London, England, via the direct Hudson Bay route, is charged a rate equivalent to that which he would pay were he to fly from Winnipeg to Montreal to London. This is a much higher rate, although the direct Hudson Bay route is hundreds of miles shorter than the Winnipeg-Montreal-London route.
This is what is known as the rule of normal ports of entry. In this case, under IATA regulations, Montreal is regarded as Canada's normal port of entry, and I ask this house what could be more anachronistic and unreasonable in this day of jet air travel.
All too often, in all too many situations, the geographic location of Winnipeg works against us-militates against our ambitions as a community. Why, then, when geography will work for us, as in this case, should we not be permitted to capitalize on our location and to reap such small advantage from it as may present itself. This government should be fighting for Winnipeg and the prairies in this regard, working to get the discriminatory regulations of IATA changed.
What of the need for research in the science of transportation and transportation policy? We were greatly heartened by a speech delivered, I believe, in Winnipeg earlier this fall on this very subject by the minister. This is another area in which western Canadians will be watching developments very closely.
I submit, Mr. Chairman, that a school of transportation studies should be established, with the aid of the federal government, to serve this country's rapidly expanding need for experts and expertise in this vital field of activity.
Because of the background which Manitoba has in this field, because of its work over the
Supply-Transport
years on the freight rates issue and related question, because of its bank of statistical and empirical data, and because of its pool of expert transportation consultants already developed, I sumbit that the logical location for this proposed research centre and school is the province of Manitoba. There should, too, be a direct connection with the University of Manitoba.
The minister, as an old Manitoba University professor, hinted as much in his recent speech. He nods his approval almost imperceptibly now, which leads me to conclude that this project now has official ministerial sanction and will soon be a reality.
There is one other point I would mention, and it is one which, unlike the subject I have just mentioned, gives me no pleasure.
This is the question of national, transcontinental air service, into and out of Winnipeg, moving both east and west. In the first place, there is valid reason, sir, in my opinion, for examining now the possibility of permitting Canadian Pacific Airlines to expand its domestic service. Never has such a need been manifested more eloquently than during these past few days during the Air Canada strike, and during the last few days of August and the early part of September when the nation's railroads were strikebound.
Finally, there is the matter of equipment being used on east-west Air Canada flights on Air Canada's new winter schedule. This schedule which was already in effect before the current strike and presumably will be resumed when the strike is over.
A number of travellers have brought to my attention, and I must say I am inclined to agree with them, the fact that there has been a decline in the standard of equipment being used by Air Canada since November 1 on east-west domestic fi ghts.
In fact, one might ask the minister, in a paraphrase of a popular song of a few years ago: "Where have all the jet planes gone?" Could it be that they have gone south for the winter? Lately, the DC-8's and the DC-9's have been more and more scarce on Air Canada flights to and from western Canada, and the Viscounts and the Vanguards have been coming back into ever-increasing use. One cannot avoid the suspicion, Mr. Chairman, that this subtle shift in equipment is closely related to Air Canada's new landing rights in southern Florida and southern California, focal points of the winter tourist traffic. How can one escape the corollary

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conclusion that this is another reflection of a long-standing attitude of cynicism on the part of Air Canada's president toward western Canada?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Louis Ralph (Bud) Sherman: I would defer to the minister, but I am racing the clock so as to allow the Minister of Transport to speak. I am concluding my remarks at this point. The people of western Canada would, I am sure, appreciate it if the minister, a westerner by birth-


Some hon. Members:: No.


Louis Ralph (Bud) Sherman: -would look into this matter. If Mr. McGregor did not have the equipment to service southern California and southern Florida he should not have bid for the routes. As far as I can see, there is no reason on earth, or in the air, why the western Canadian traveller should be expected to bail Mr. McGregor out of his self-constructed predicament.


Mr. Loiselle:: Mr. Chairman, I shall be brief, for I know that there are only 20 minutes left before the estimates of the Department of Transport are passed and I should like to draw the minister's attention to two very urgent cases in connection with the needs of my constituency.
First of all, I should like to discuss the Lachine canal. The Lachine canal has been a boon in past years but, in recent years, it has been a cause of trouble. I am told that in the last three years, about 100,000 tons of merchandise only were carried through the canal. I am also told that perhaps less than 50,000 tons will be carried throught it this year. The Lachine canal has reached the point where it must be closed and abandoned.
[DOT] (2:20 p.m.)
In the past, this canal has been a nightmare for people in the area including myself. Every year, one, two or three children drown in it. The wrong-doers who have something to hide use it as a cemetery, and therefore I renew my request to the minister that the Lachine canal be closed, once and for all, in view of the fact that it no longer serves the purposes for which it had been intended.
In the past, it has been a boon; I said so a moment ago-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wonder would the hon. member permit me to interrupt him for a moment? It has been represented to me by a number of members on both sides of the chamber that they would like me to reply to a few of the points raised but my time expires, I am not too sorry to say, at 23 minutes to 3 o'clock, or so I am told.
I am in the hands of the committee. As Mackenzie King said to me many a time, no man was hung for something he did not say, so I will leave it to the committee to decide whether it wants to hear me.


Gérard Loiselle: Mr. Chairman, if the other hon. members agree to the minister's suggestion, I would ask the house to allow me two or three minutes, during which time I shall submit my requests to the minister, and then I shall resume my seat.
I shall not labour the point; however, at the present time, we are asking the closing of the Lachine canal, especially within the limits of the city of Montreal. Consultations are going on presently with the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority. I hope that these consultations, with the minister's support, will be brought to a successful conclusion and that the city of Montreal will be able to buy this famed canal for the price of $1, without too many strings attached, to use it for purposes such as subway, water and sewer systems, express-way.
Now, Mr. Chairman, without further ado I come to my second request. It has to do with the removal of the Canadian National Railways tracks, which run through part of my constituency, and I believe it is proper to ask that they be removed, since, actually, they do not go beyond Windsor Street.
That 243-acre area is being renovated and it would be advisable-it is even essential, and I trust that the minister will use his authority and make the recommendation-that the C.N.R. tracks which presently end at Windsor Street, stop more to the west, that is at Saint-Remi Street, from where the freight could be carried by truck.
I would like to speak further, Mr. Chairman, but I cannot in view of the limited time at our disposal. However, I would appreciate it if the minister took my two requests into serious consideration: the closing of Lachine canal within the limits of the city of Montreal and its sale to the city of Montreal for the sum of $1; the removal of C.N.R. tracks between St. James and Notre Dame Streets, from Saint-Remi to Windsor Streets.
November 25, 1966

I also wish to warn the minister that I have been told of a Canadian Pacific Railways application for the construction of railway lines on the Lachine canal. I understand that the Board of Transport Commissioners is presently considering the application; I trust the minister will look into the matter and make sure that the C.P.R.'s request is denied.
Mr. Chairman, this is all for the time being. I would have liked to elaborate further, but nevertheless I hope the minister will give us encouraging replies with respect to those two requests that I am making on behalf of the city of Montreal.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman-


Mr. Barnett:: On a question of order, Mr. Chairman, there are at least two or three of us who would like to add some points which may be of interest to the minister when he is replying, and I am wondering whether there might be unanimous consent to extend the consideration of these estimates for, say, half an hour.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid I could not join in such unanimous consent because I had assumed I was only to be here for three hours and I made other engagements. If the committee wanted to go on and allow one or two members to speak after I have spoken, or if it does not want me to speak at all, I am entirely in the hands of hon. members. I had really counted on being free by a quarter to three and had made other engagements. I think it is also unfair to some of my colleagues who have just as important things to say to the committee as I have.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Under the circumstances, Mr. Chairman, I think we should allow the minister the opportunity of, shall we say, hanging himself.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to make any original observations of any kind. I am only going to try to deal with as many of the points raised by members of the committee as I can in the time available. I may say that I feel, if not complacent, rather encouraged-I say this in particular to the hon. member for Winnipeg South-by what on the whole has been the rather friendly attitude during discussion of my estimates. I hope that attitude may persist even after I have spoken
The hon. member for Kindersley made one or two very interesting points. I think he was right in saying that I became almost more
Supply-Transport
impatient than he did about the delays with respect to local airports. One of the difficulties we do have in this matter is that, unfortunately, there are more things to do in this country than there are resources with which to do them.
With reference to Bay d'Espoir which, although it is pronounced despair does not mean despair but actually means hope, I would point out that there is a huge power development going on there. There was no road leading to it and the airport was absolutely essential to carry in materials. In any event, this work was done before the policy came into operation this year. In this connection, I think Saskatchewan is not doing at all badly if one looks at all figures, but unfortunately I cannot take the time now to put them on record.
With reference to railway grade crossings, I may say that the organization of mayors and municipalities at its meeting with the cabinet yesterday made certain representations about railway crossings. I assured them that as soon as the new transport commission was established I would ask it, or if it took too long to establish, I would ask the Board of Transport Commissioners, to make a study of alternative approaches to this problem.
The hon. member for Quebec East also spoke about this problem. I may tell the committee I went to Quebec city with him and we saw every crossing, except one or two, in the whole city one Sunday morning. I hope it was a pious thing to do, because it was in an effort to try to keep people alive. The situation in Quebec city is quite incredible. You have to see it, but even then you can hardly believe it. I think the hon. member has the right idea when he suggests taking the railway lines out of the city and putting the station in another place. It might be a great deal cheaper than dealing with all those crossings, and this approach might be applicable to Sault Ste. Marie as well as a lot of other places.
I would like to make a long speech about seaway tolls but if I did I would not have time to say anything about anything else. I just want to make two points. The first is that the seaway is just about up to capacity now, and if we are going to carry large, additional quantities of grain and other bulk commodities through it, we will have to expand the seaway.
I doubt if we are going to get this parliament to agree to expanding the seaway to the degree it should be expanded unless there are reasonable tolls charged. I do not think it is fair to ask the voters and taxpayers of Halifax and Prince Rupert to pay for something which can be of no real benefit to them. Adequate

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tolls on the seaway will enable us to expand the Welland canal and the seaway so that bigger vessels can be used to carry grain, which would be an advantage to the constituents of the hon. member for Kindersley. They have broad horizons out there. I hope they will take a broad and long view of this and, if they do, I am sure they will agree with me.
The hon. member for Skeena referred to two subjects, one of which I am going to leave to my honourable and learned friend, the Minister without Portfolio, who has been making a special study of it, to deal with. I have a report, which I am going to send the hon. gentleman, on the delays that have been occasioned by the recent troubles with the longshoremen in Vancouver harbour. Up to now, they do not seem to have been serious enough to cause hardship but only to cause annoyance.
One of the difficulties is that when one ship got to Prince Rupert the longshoremen there were unwilling to unload it. I trust the hon. gentleman will use his influence, which I am sure is very great with them, to see that they unload it.


Frank Howard: I will trade my influence in that regard for the minister's influence to get a new grain elevator built in Prince Rupert.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have been trying to do this for a long time. I am on the hon. gentleman's side, but I have been trying to get the costs down to a reasonable figure.
[DOT] (2:30 p.m.)
If the hon. member for Roberval was not a friend of mine before he spoke today he certainly is a friend of mine after the things he said today, so I will use whatever influence I have with the C.N.R. to see if we can get them to send up a locomotive to clear off all the snow so that his constituency will benefit. But I cannot promise because I do not run the C.N.R. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra also heaped praise on me and I enjoyed it. He spoke about pollution. I do not enjoy that any more than he does. We are trying to do a certain amount about that with rather inadequate means. I only hope that the government of British Columbia will co-operate with the other agencies and show the same concern about keeping the coast clean that has been expressed by that government recently in respect of harbour development. With the co-operation of all concerned, I feel sure the problem can be solved. As it is at the present time, it is a disgrace and should be dealt with.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is it possible to step up the number of sweeps in the harbour? I have been informed that the amount of money which is available in this regard has been reduced.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is under active consideration and we are endeavouring to do whatever we can. The hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre reiterated the point made by the hon. member for Kindersley. He also raised the point that we might look at the matter of the possible relocation of the Regina airport. I can assure him that I will immediately have directions given that the whole matter be studied right away. I agree with him that if we put a lot more investment in that airport it will be more difficult to do this, so we should look into his suggestion first.
The hon. member for Medicine Hat said, notwithstanding the good job which has been done by the railways and others in respect of the movement of grain, he was not altogether happy about the distribution of the movements. I am not altogether happy either, and I know the Minister of Finance is of the same opinion. We need more facilities for the movement of grain. These can be provided only at a certain pace. We are trying to step up the pace in every way we can. I am glad that the hon. gentleman did not suggest that we have a controller. I do not think that would work. I believe that in the last two years the co-ordination has been pretty good. The difficulty is that the people who are good at co-ordinating these things are the same people who are doing the operation and if they are attending too many meetings they do not have the time to get on with the job of moving the grain. The matter will never be solved of course until we have better facilities for doing so.
In connection with the air service at Medicine Hat, I think and I hope this will be one of the places which will get better service as a result of the announcement recently made concerning the regional air policy.
I cannot say how much I sympathize with the hon. member for Cochrane, who is one of my dearest friends. I know that there is no other member in this house who serves his constituents more faithfully than he.


Gordon Minto Churchill: How does a person get praise like that?


John Whitney Pickersgill: He has had a record, like the hon. gentleman, of loyalty to his leader. I will do anything that is within my power to do whatever is proper in order to help the
November 25, 196S

situation in his area. The hon. member knows I will do this.
The hon. member for Moose Mountain, and his other colleagues from Saskatchewan who have spoken today I regard as very good friends. They have been a great help to me in the last few weeks. The hon. member made some observations concerning certain matters and I will look into these. I am very much in sympathy with his view that the railways must step up the production of modern equipment. I believe the railways also share this view.
The hon. member for Kootenay West was good enough to let me off the hook by saying he did not expect me to answer any of his questions because I would not know the answers. I will enter the same plea of ignorance and look into the problems. I will give him the answers in due course.
The hon. member for Winnipeg South conferred upon me an honour to which I am not entitled. I was not born in western Canada, although I was taken there before I had a choice. That was nearly 60 years ago. I have lived half my life in Manitoba so, notwithstanding the fact that I am not a native, I still consider myself somewhat of a Manitoban. The hon. member for Essex East says that no convert ever was such a Manitoban as I until I was converted to another province to which I owe even more.
The hon. gentleman really does not need to carry his own baggage through the Winnipeg airport. Air Canada will do that for him. I still deplore, however, the situation there. The other day when I replied to a question asked by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre I believe I covered this point, although perhaps not entirely satisfactorily. I share the hon. gentleman's hope that the new regional air policy will bring about improvements in this regard and that those improvements will be of special importance to areas like the prairies and other less densely populated parts of the country.
In respect of the two points raised by the hon. member for St. Ann I may say that I am in great sympathy with what he said and I intend to look into this very seriously.
There is one more matter, and if the committee would permit me, I should like to let the Minister without Portfolio say a few words about this. This is a subject which I omitted. It has to do with the safety of life and ships which was raised by the hon. member for Skeena.
Supply-Transport


Mr. Turner:: Mr. Chairman, with the indulgence of the committee, one cannot really embrace this important subject in one minute. In reply to the hon. member for Skeena, I can say this government believes that life is more important than property on the rivers and lakes. We have had a series of meetings and the departmental officials have been extremely busy improving the safety features and traffic control system on the St. Lawrence river channel.
With regard to the question raised concerning the Manseau 101 barge case, I might say that the provincial inquiry now is under way. So far as I know it has not yet been completed. The formal inquiry before Mr. Justice Noel which has been set up by the Department of Transport is not a limited inquiry. Its terms of reference are sufficiently large to relate to marine safety. I know the issue my hon. friend had in mind. If the seamen, through the Seafarers' International Union, wish to bring their case before the commissioner they must make application in the usual way, because he is in charge of the inquiry. At the last meeting on marine safety we studied the problem of manning ships. The developments are reaching a stage when the department may have to consider publishing regulations affecting safety. This derives from technological change when crews might be cut to a point when safety would be endangered. It is not so much the size of the crew but rather the number of men on watch or alert at any one time or the factor of fatigue. Other matters are properly for collective bargaining. On another occasion I hope to have an opportunity to expand further on this particular subject.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall vote 1 carry?


Gordon Minto Churchill: No.


James Russell Keays: May I ask the Minister of Transport a very short question?


Maurice Rinfret: Order, please. The time alloted for the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Transport has expired. Does the committee agree unanimously to allow the hon. member for Gaspe to ask a question?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Do I understand that vote No. 1 was carried? If it has carried I would be very pleased, none the less, to answer the hon. gentleman's question.

November 25, 1966
Supp ly-A griculture


Gordon Minto Churchill: Vote 1 has not carried.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It did carry.


Mr. Ricard:: We said no.


James Russell Keays: The Minister of Transport indicated to me some time ago that a study was underway in respect of improving air services in northern New Brunswick and the lower St. Lawrence area. May we soon expect to have some kind of policy enunciated in this regard?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I made a mistake in agreeing to answer this question because I do not know the answer. I will try to obtain that information.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration including the Canadian agricultural services co-ordinating committee. contributions to the commonwealth agricultural bureaux and a special contribution not exceeding $20,000 to the agricultural economics research council, subject to approval by the treasury board, $4,750,800.
[DOT] (2:40 p.m.)
J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, because I do not wish to deny other members the opportunity of making their own remarks concerning the Department of Agriculture, I shall be as brief as possible.
However, I wish to take this opportunity to draw to the minister's attention a matter of great importance. Last week I met a business man interested in the vegetable canning industry. He was telling me that a large quantity of canned tomatoes is coming in from Italy. The results of such large-scale imports are that no buyers were interested in our 1966 production which is still in storage. As a result all the farmers in my riding interested in growing tomatoes for canning purposes are much concerned and look forward to next year's crop with much apprehension.
I wish to draw the attention of the minister to that fact, for, in my riding, many farmers derive their income from tomato growing, and should foreign competition prevent the sale of our own products it would be detrimental, first, to the 40 or 50 employees of that particular cannery and, second, to employees working in other canneries who would also be deprived of gainful employment.
I would also like to talk briefly about the dairy industry. The minister knows quite well that the dairy industry for eastern farmers and, possibly, for Quebec farmers particularly, is a very important one. Our farmers derive about 40 per cent of their revenues from

the dairy industry and, because of the reluctance on the part of the minister to announce his dairy policy in the last two years, a feeling of uncertainty has developed in the minds of our farmers, to such an extent that in many cases herds have been reduced. Farmers have been forced to take such a decision, because they could not depend on adequate revenues.
For example, a comparison between 1957 and 1966 shows that in 1957 herds numbered
3.098.000	head, compared with 2,799,000 only in 1966. It is true that production methods have improved greatly and, consequently, that milk production may not be comparable, nowadays, we can produce as much milk with fewer cows than in the past.
This reduction in the number of cattle is an undeniable indication of concern among farmers, resulting in a switch from dairy production to other farming activities.
For instance, butter production, which reached 139,330,000 pounds, dropped to 131,-
611,000	pounds in 1965. These figures appear in a published booklet entitled "Dairy Farmers of Canada"-1966 edition.
Mr. Chairman, it is to be expected that if the milk production and the number of milch cows keep going down year after year, butter may eventually become scarce in Canada. We shall then probably have to supply ourselves elsewhere, whereas it seems natural that a country as rich as Canada should be able to produce the butter it needs.
In order to show that imports keep increasing, allow me to point out, Mr. Chairman, that in 1956, Canada imported 8,885,000 pounds of cheese, while in 1965, the figure reached
17.794.000	pounds.


Mr. Roxburgh:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the hon. member how many pounds of butter were in storage in 1956?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: When I stood up to speak I had no intention of making a speech for the hon. member. If the hon. member wishes to make a speech, let him dig up the facts and present them.


John Maxwell Roxburgh: I just asked a question which you cannot or do not care to answer.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: I do not intend to take up the time of this committee answering questions because I know other hon. members wish to speak. I do not intend to dig up your facts for you in this book. If you know where to look, and I am afraid you do not, you can obtain that information yourself.
November 25, 196B


Mr. Prud'homme:: Do not get angry. It is only a question, so why get angry?


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, I see that the hon. member for Dollard-


An hon. Member:: For Saint-Denis.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: In any case, he is sitting on his brains and that is why he cannot be heard.


Rémi Paul: That is typical of Ricard.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman-


Rémi Paul: No one but Ricard could say that.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, once again Liberal members are showing their good manners. When one of them speaks in the house, all they can do is to interrupt him. They do not have the courage to get up and speak, but they remain seated on their brains and interrupt. That is the best they can do.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue and tell the house what was the per capita consumption of butter in 1956 and compare it also to the consumption of margarine. In 1956, according to the source I mentioned earlier, the per capita consumption of butter in Canada was approximately 20.51 lbs. whereas in 1965 it had fallen to 18.61 lbs.
[DOT] (2:50 p.m.)
However, the consumption of margarine which in 1956 amounted to 7.73 pounds per person has increased to 8.70 pounds for 1965.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to call the attention of the minister to the fact that in order to have a sound product, it is essential for farmers to have healthy cattle. I see in the monthly letter of the Department of Agriculture that brucellosis is finally under control. This is good news for farmers, because this contagious disease has made them lose thousands of dollars. The price of purebred cattle is constantly increasing and this is the reason why I would ask the minister to amend the legislation on epizootic diseases, in order that farmers may be better paid when they are unfortunate enough to have a diseased herd.
When we were in power, we had raised considerably the allowance for lost animals, and I think the minister could help the people by doing the same thing, that is, by raising the allowance paid for slaughtered animals under the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, because the farmers must oay much more for them.
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I do not need to remind the minister also that he has a lot to do if he wants to help the farmers. For example, he could see to it that the prices of farm machinery are more proportionate to the revenue from the sale of products. The prices of farm machinery are always increasing and one of the reasons for this is probably the 11 per cent tax imposed upon building materials.
Therefore, I should like in conclusion to ask the minister to put pressure upon his colleague the Minister of Finance and Receiver General (Mr. Sharp), so that this 11 per cent tax may be abolished as soon as possible.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, under the system that we have now I am not going to be too long-winded in dealing with this problem. It is not that the situation in agriculture is any better now than it has been, but my remarks shall be brief because of the time factor involved. I should like to mention several things that I think are plaguing the farmers today. I have been informed that the Ontario Farmers Union have passed a major piece of legislation in their own councils whereby farmer groups will have the right to call strikes, not on an over-all basis but in relation to a particular product that may be experiencing severe difficulty. Therefore, the minister will have to face these problems as they arise.
The dairy industry has been mentioned. I do not want to pursue that matter at this time. However, I believe the problems of the dairy industry are not solved. I should like to congratulate the minister and his officials on the change that has been made in paying the cream subsidy on a monthly basis. A member of parliament who has cream producers in his area knows that the old system of payment caused more consternation and division among farmers than anything else.
In the last election campaign the Liberal party stated that they intended to dispose of the small farmer and could do this through the market place. To some extent this policy has been carried out as far as cream producers are concerned. Certainly the policy which provided a three-month waiting period for a subsidy cheque, rather than receiving it monthly, assisted the transfer-and perhaps this in some measure was justified-of a large number of cream producers to secondary milk marketing. Rather than separating the milk on the farm, these producers were persuaded as a result of this policy to get into the secondary milk field. In my area this policy has

November 25, 1966
Supp ly-Agriculture
resulted in the establishment of a new cheese factory, which will double the cheese production in Timiskaming. I believe this is largely related to the policy of the government with respect to farm-separated cream, which policy has been maintained for a number of years.
There are other major problems facing agriculture. We are facing the problem that was mentioned briefly a few moments ago, namely, the shortage of butter. In my opinion, Canada has now changed from a country plagued with agricultural surpluses to one that may have to give much greater consideration to how we can produce enough of any given commodity, on a stable basis, to meet our commitments in the export markets we have built up and the domestic demands.
When we look back over the last 10 years of the operation of the stabilization board in regard to butter, we see that the situation has been a strange one. We remember the scandals that took place in British Columbia in this field, and the plant that burned down in the province of Quebec a few years ago. What occurred in this connection was rather covered up. It is strange when we recall that we have been selling butter oil, rendered butter, at a price that obviously did not cover the cost of production let alone the money which the federal government put into this commodity. After many years of storing this commodity we had to liquidate it in a market in which there was really no demand. I am sure we will be reminded of this by the people of Canada who had to pay for this costly program, when we are now faced with the possibility of importing butter this year to meet our domestic requirements. The short range aspect of our policy is certainly indicated in this example.
The fact that we may have to import large quantities of tobacco indicates that our problems in this field have not been solved. In order to maintain a reasonable price, producers of this commodity had to cut down their acreages. They had to do this in a very strict and dictatorial manner which caused a great deal of commotion in the tobacco producing areas, particularly in respect of those who were on the outside rather than the inside.
There is something the government will have to think about, particularly the Minister of Agriculture, as indicated by the following passage in one of the publications of the department, namely, "News From The Canada Department of Agriculture." This publication is for the week ending November 25, and over the minister's signature, in the last section,

under the heading "Marketing Boards" it reads:
Ottawa, November 25,	1966-There were 88
marketing boards for farm products registered in nine provinces in 1964. according to a report issued by CDA's economics branch. Number of members, at 211,000 was unchanged from the previous year.
The value of products under the jurisdiction of the 73 boards which reported their activities for that year to the branch amounted to $488 million- about 14 per cent of farm cash income for the whole country.
I have for a long time been advocating the establishment, under the federal Department of Agriculture, of federal marketing boards. I am well aware of provincial autonomy in this respect and the constitutional limitations on marketing legislation. But I think it is time the Department of Agriculture in Ottawa called a conference with the provincial ministers of agriculture and decided under what form of marketing legislation we could introduce national marketing boards.
[DOT] (3:00 p.m.)
It seems to me that the fight a few months ago between the provincial ministers of agriculture in Quebec and Ontario and the federal Minister of Agriculture highlighted the fact that if the provincial agricultural ministers are going to take steps to correct a situation in their provinces they are likely to hurt farmers in another area and make the position of the federal government untenable. We will have to operate as "big brother" to the provinces which are faced with the same problem but deal with it in a different manner. I believe that if agriculture is to be a vibrant industry in Canada, as I am sure everyone wishes it to be, market legislation will have to play an increasing role. It has always struck me as being odd to find the province of Ontario operating in Europe through the cheese marketing board. It did an excellent job over the years, but it has always seemed to me that this was the responsibility of a national board because when we sell Ontario cheese in England it might deprive the cheese producers in the province of Quebec of the opportunity of selling their cheese in that market. As soon as they found themselves with a surplus, the price dropped. The market in Ontario was undercut and the gains which they made were really taken away from them, so they had to compensate themselves for the sales they were making.
In my opinion this is true of most farm marketing legislation where export commodities are involved. The advantages of marketing legislation on a federal basis can best be
November 25, 1966

exemplified by the wheat board and the excellent job which they have been able to do, not only for the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba but for all the prairie provinces. These advantages have now been extended beyond those provinces.
I do not know whether any changes in marketing legislation will take place, but I think the Canadian public are very interested in the whole problem. The price of wheat in western Canada, which is tied to international agreements, is exceptionally low in terms of the cost of production to the farmers. This cost of production is rising without compensation being made to the farmers in terms of sales. Over the years there has been much discussion regarding the matter of a two-price system for wheat, but recently the government has studiously steered away from that course.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: They promised it in 1963.


William Arnold Peters: Yes, they did, but as you know there are cabinet ministers in the government who say that promises made during election campaigns are not promises at all; they are election bait and after the election the best thing to do is to forget about them as soon as possible. I think the minister would be well advised to reconsider the two-price system in relation to the export position of Canada. Otherwise, one of these days we will find that the United States will dispose of the restriction under their law whereby there is no minimum price on wheat no matter where the sales are made. This will increase the price putting the United States in a non-competitive position in many of the markets. One of these days this law might be changed, and then Canada will have to fight for its life in the international field. I think we should be prepared to consider our export market in relation to the domestic market, which would result in a better deal for the western farmers and would ensure our competitive position. I suggest that this should be done in many fields, and if we are to be the breadbasket of the world, as we all think we should and we can, then we will have to consider the export of our agricultural commodities on a national basis. This can only be done under national marketing legislation. If changes are to be made in our constitution, then let us start by making overtures to the provinces to extend our legislation in this field.
One of the major problems affecting the agricultural producers in the whole of our country is the pricing of farm machinery. I was pleased to note that on May 27, 1966 the
Supply-Agriculture
minister appointed a farm machinery inquiry under the leadership of Clarence L. Barber, head of the economic division of the University of Manitoba. In my opinion this man is highly qualified to conduct such an inquiry. Such an inquiry is more properly conducted by a royal commission rather than a committee of the House of Commons which has already instituted such an inquiry on two occasions without conclusions having been reached in either case. The factors which are to be studied include the impact of financing, distribution and servicing costs of farm machinery. The commission was also asked to look into the agricultural machinery industry in Canada, and in the export markets, as compared to the agricultural machinery industries in other countries. It is interesting to note that the government has never really looked at this aspect of the farm machinery industry because if they had they would not have been so surprised at the fact that the automobile pact which was recently negotiated has not served the interests of Canada.
A similar pact was concluded on an international basis many years before whereby duty on farm machinery was removed regardless of where it was produced or sold. I am told that it is possible to buy a tractor in India and have it delivered in Canada duty-free. All you have to pay is the cost of transportation. It is interesting to note in this field that the largest agricultural implement industry is Canadian. The other day one of my colleagues, in speaking about other Canadian companies including the Trans-Canada Pipe Lines, said that just because it was a Canadian company that did not make it good. There are just as many Canadian companies that are corporately bad as there are foreign companies. The same is true of the Massey-Harris Company, the largest agricultural implement producer. As was indicated in the last study, this company was only producing two farm implements in Canada, and all the rest were produced somewhere else.
The 1966 inquiry will also look into measures which will contribute to the expansion of an efficient production of agricultural machinery, the attainment of technological advances, the improvement of distribution, study, this company was only producing two financing and servicing facilities, and the enhancement of the industry's competitive position so that Canadian farmers would be ensured most favourable prices for, and availability of, machinery parts.

November 25, 1966
Supply-Agriculture
I had the doubtful honour of having been a member of the committees on agriculture and colonization in the years 1960 and 1961. It is interesting to note that there was no particular difference between their terms of reference. Their terms of reference read as follows:
Tuesday, March 14, 1961
Resolved,-That the standing committee on agriculture and colonization be empowered to continue its inquiry into the question of prices of farm machinery as recommended by the said committee in its fourth report presented to the house July 28, 1960, and that the committee's minutes of proceedings and evidence with regard to this inquiry at the last session be referred to the said committee.
In other words, the committee asked that it be reconstituted and that the business of the committee be continued. The following problems were investigated by the committee, as reported in the minutes of the committee on page 1479 of the committee report of September 26, 1961:
Your committee has investigated the following aspects of farm machinery prices:
1.	Costs of manufacturing farm machinery, including labour (wages and salaries), materials, overhead and profits;
2.	Costs of distributing farm machinery, including the margins earned by dealers and transportation costs;
[DOT] (3:10 p.m.)
3.	Other costs of ownership of farm machinery, such as charges for credit;
4.	The organization of the farm machinery industry and market in North America.
It goes on:
Your Committee reports that it has met 32 times and feels, due to the wide scope of the questions considered, further study is necessary to determine the effect on the prices of farm machinery and repairs of the following:
(a)	If farmers are receiving the full advantage of a free trade market in farm machinery
(b)	Cost of distribution of farm machinery
(c)	Cost and standardization of parts
(d)	Standardization of farm machinery
(e)	Credit arrangements
(f)	The reluctance of machine manufacturers to provide details of their costs, which are regarded as being of a competitive nature
(g)	Different opinions of the witnesses as to the productivity of labour as compared to increase in wages.
Further study is also required because of the following:
(a)	The necessity of recalling some witnesses
(b)	Other witnesses yet to be heard.
The committee agreed and the house agreed that the committee should continue in session in 1962, until it was able to make recommendations. What was recommended did not take

place. The minister has written letters to the farm implement industry indicating that he wanted to do something about the promise he made to the farmers, when he made his trip to western Canada last year. He said he would do something about the prices farmers had to pay for things, because farmers were caught in the cost-price squeeze and high farm machinery costs.
There is an order of the house for the tabling of documents and letters received from the farm implement companies. That order was made after the companies increased their machinery prices. I want to know if the minister intends to table those letters.
The minister, as the committee found, knows that we cannot make any decision about solving the difficulties if we do not have available the information on which the government ought to base its decision. Outside influences, it is true, affect farm machinery costs. The government of Saskatchewan has done much research into new implements. Before certain implements are licensed for sale in Saskatchewan they have to meet certain tests. This government very magnanimously applauded the decision of the premier of Saskatchewan to turn this kind of service over-and this is the only service like this in Canada, and certainly, it is the only one I am aware of operating to the extent of the Saskatchewan service-to the University of Saskatchewan without providing facilities to carry out the required research, or the power to licence or reject any particular implement.
It is true that in the province of Quebec the Co-op Federee has been able to buy in bulk a number of commodities, as has the C.C.I.L. in western Canada. These organizations were able to buy on a co-operative basis and sell to their members at lower commodity prices.
In any case, are organizations such as these making an impact on farm machinery costs in the initial stage? What they do has no effect on the farm machinery companies. This matter is critical, because in my area most farmers cannot buy a $12,000 combine, nor a $6,000 or $7,000 tractor. They cannot pay cash for these things, and they have to buy them on the instalment plan over a long period. The 25 per cent increase which is taking place because of government legislation on the order paper relating to bank loans hits these farmers hard.
This government has not helped the situation, but seems to have gone out of its way to help raise the cost of farm machinery. It has shown an inability to maintain that pressure that the former government maintained-and
November 25, 1966



I will give them credit for that-on the farm machinery companies forcing them to keep their prices down. That pressure was maintained through the agriculture and colonization committee.
The committee may not have done anything but it did keep down the prices of farm machinery for at least two or three years. In my opinion, it kept them down for five years. The farm machinery companies nibbled away at increases during the time, but now they have stopped nibbling. They have become bold and they say, "We will raise our prices and the government be damned." The inquiry presently being conducted will have no more success than previous inquiries. For instance, we find that Massey-Ferguson has implement parts manufactured all over the world, in France, South America, India, China, and it is exporting these commodities to Canada.
Our farmers who are plagued with transportation costs which increase the prices of their produce in the market, have to buy imported machinery, on which transportation costs have to be paid. They are caught in a squeeze, and are without any protection.
If the Minister of Agriculture goes home to Renfrew-he has had to return home, and I was more fortunate than he was in that regard-he will find many farmers who try to live on $2,000 or $3,000 a year are having a difficult time. It is no problem for the Minister of Agriculture to find that the farms of western Canada are conducted more as businesses than as family farms. For instance, they have accountants, because a quarter of a cent, when multiplied a thousandfold, makes a great difference. Many of the farms in western Canada are different from those in the area of Renfrew.
The little farmer, caught in the cost price squeeze, is blamed by consumers across the country for the rising cost of living. The farmer cannot do anything. In fact, he gets less now for his produce and he has to pay more for his machinery, but the public blames him for increased commodity prices in the market.
Labour, it is interesting to note, has been interested in this problem. Labour was interested at the time of the previous hearings and for a very selfish reason, in my opinion. You may remember the story of Walter Reuther attending at the Ford automobile factory in Detroit. The head of the company took him round the floor and showed him one of the automated machines they used to make cars. He said, "How will you collect dues from this
Supply-Agriculture
machine? It will be difficult to collect dues, will it not?"
[DOT] (3:20 p.m.)
Mr. Reuther said: That is true. It will be a real problem. But how are you going to sell automobiles to these machines?
We can see this situation developing today. Many more people would like to buy these machines but are unable to so because present prices, the product of the profit motive, are prohibitive. No matter how small the operation, many farmers would like to mechanize their farms. In my area it is hard to find a farmer today who owns a team of horses and a wagon. He hauls his products in a truck. If his time is worth anything, he cannot afford to spend it on the road with a team of horses. So, it is necessary to merchandise even small farms.
I believe the minister will need to consider this question in a more positive way than by writing letters to farm machinery companies and receiving replies which obviously call for further inquiry on his part. The income received from the sale of agricultural commodities has risen very little in recent years, while farm costs have been increasing sharply as can be ascertained by noting the income which is left in the farmer's hands.
I have been going back over some of the literature presented to the farm inquiry. Figures published by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics relative to the operating and other expenses of farmers in Canada show that in 1947 the cash income of the average farm amounted to $2,226 out of which $966 or 43 per cent had to be spent in operating costs, leaving a net income of $1,260. Take the figures for what was probably the best year, 1949. Cash income was $2,500, operating expenses were $1,100 or 46 per cent of cash income and net income amounted to $1,400. By 1951, net income amounted to $2,154 and 50 per cent of the cash income was taken up by operating expenses.
In 1959, the last year for which figures are recorded here, cash income amounted to $2,808, and operating expenses $1,890 or 67.3 per cent, leaving a net income of $918. In other words, the farmer was paying $1,800 to operate his farm in 1959 whereas in 1947 it cost him less than $1,000. Nevertheless his income in 1959 was $100 less than it had been in 1947. Net income had decreased by $100, though the cost of operation had more than doubled in a 12-year period.
If these figures were projected into later years I expect we would find that the same

November 25, 19S6
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Agriculture
trend had continued. In agriculture, we have become victims of the market place and of the farm machinery industry. Now, the situation has been made worse by the imposition of higher interest rates on money which farmers need to borrow for operating expenses or farm improvements. This government has really lifted the ceiling from interest rates, whether on short term loans or on loans for long term capital expenditure. The results will probably become evident to all farmers by next spring.
I do not want to say that I am in favour of strikes in the farm industry. But I am pleased that the farmers of Ontario have decided to do something about their problems. If the only thing they accomplish is to tell the people of Ontario and the people of Canada that they have a grievance, and outline some of the solutions which they feel would be to their advantage, then I believe they will have accomplished a great deal. And if the farmers go so far as to organize pressure groups and strikes, I believe the minister will be unable to ignore those developments, and something good may come of them.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I must apologize to the hon. member, but the time allotted to him has expired.


Charles-Arthur Gauthier: Mr. Chairman, the time has come to vote those estimates, and if we look at the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Greene), we see a man plunged in deep meditation. It is probably because looking over the work done during the year, the minister is wondering if he has done a good job, if the members of the opposition, as well as his Liberal colleagues, are happy with his work and if the people in general approve of what has been done in 1966 in the field of agriculture.
[DOT] (3:30 p.m.)
If we look back, I think we can say that something worthwhile has been done in agriculture this year. I want at this time to congratulate the minister who worked hard, I know, to reach the objective he had set for himself; if he did not reach it, it is because perfection is not of this world. We ask a man to do what he can and, in my opinion, the minister fulfilled his duty well, although it is a very difficult one, and has been so particularly in the last two or three years. We have gone through lean years what with everything that happened to our farmers, all the hardship they had, due to the weather and the market,

and in spite of all that we managed to come out of it fairly well.
I sit on the committee on agriculture, forestry and rural development and I have insisted on being a member ever since I came to the house. I think the committee does marvellous work. I see here the minister's officials who have answered the numerous questions put to them by the committee members without ever showing any embarrassment. I must congratulate all those people who work so heartily in trying to raise the farmers' standard of living.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to put one or two points to the minister. I am sure he has often been able to notice failures within an organization; failures which are only normal and human.
Milk and cream subsidies are undertakings which have occasioned much work to the hon. members and to the department. They gave rise to a very heavy correspondence with the farmers in our constituencies as we were trying to adjust the deficiency payments to arrive at a regular payment as promised by the minister. I had to go to the Farm Credit Corporation to try to settle some one hundred cases in my constituency, as soon as possible. The issue was the late payment of the premiums.
I believe the minister should rather advise the Farm Credit Corporation to keep an eye on the processors. I believe the last delays we had were mainly due to them.
They submit their reports to the board late-probably involuntarily-and, that causes corresponding delays in the payment of subsidies; sometimes there is a one-month delay and other times, two months, it all depends on the date upon which the reports are received.
I for one am not ready to put the blame on the producer, far from it; I believe, having discussed this problem with the parties concerned, that these delays occurred particularly at the processing plant. I submit that the department should issue very strict orders to all processing plants, so that they may be made to fill in and forward their forms, fill in all the lines. I personally had to settle cases where the processor had overlooked two or three items in the one form. Therefore, the board will have to issue orders to processors so that we may have their co-operation towards sound administration of the payments.
Second, we note, particularly in the province of Quebec-elsewhere in Canada too but mostly in the province of Quebec-a decrease in milk production. The explanation for that decrease is a mystery to no one; first, in my
November 25, 1966

area-since I must speak of my riding-we had those artificial rainfalls pouring over our heads for the past two or three years. Last year it, only lasted seventeen or eighteen days, and farmers harvested a crop such as they had not seen for more than four years. I think the minister must keep on checking the situation and even go so far as to forbid completely in our area those artificial rainfalls which, for two or three years, were responsible for the disastrous situation in our district. As a result, most of the farmers were forced to cut their herd by 50 per cent, if not more, because the land had yielded about 30 to 35 per cent of what it produced before the well-remembered rainfalls, and that was the main cause of the decrease in the number of cattle.
I admit that the government helped save as many of the cattle as possible, but that assistance was not sufficient in our areas. Proof of that lies in the fact that farmers reduced their herds by 50 per cent, not by pure whim, but because they were forced to do so, since they could not feed them. If the government had assessed the needs on a regional basis, I think it would have found out that our area was in much greater need of help than certain other parts of the province of Quebec.
[DOT] (3:40 p.m.)
We are faced today with a shortage of butter and a sharp decrease in milk production. That in my opinion, is due to the lack of a serious initial study designed to maintain our herds at a normal level and to enable Quebec to produce at least the milk and butter it consumes.
There is a further reason why assistance was called for in our area, and it is the famous outbreak of brucellosis which affected the district. I know farmers who had to replace twice herds of 60, 65, 70 head of cattle because brucellosis was rampant, and I believe those farmers were ruined even though they received help. It is not enough to replace cattle or pay compensation for its replacement; those farmers lost their contracts for lack of cattle, because they were deprived of the required assistance.
I spoke about it during the outbreak; I mentioned it several times last year when the government was only granting $50 for a milch-cow, the replacement value of which was $300, or $70 when the maximum amount for an ordinary cross-breed milch-cow was $70, and $140 for a purebred. In my opinion, that assistance as absolutely insufficient. Of course, it made up for the cost of the cattle but it did not enable the farmer to honour his
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contracts. By thus losing his contracts, he was losing 50 per cent of his income and finally, he was almost faced with bankruptcy, because most of those farmers were compelled to convert their herd in to a beef cattle herd.
Mr. Chairman, if the great havoc which the disease has wrought in our area had been the subject of a serious study at that time, the department would surely have increased its assistance and even amended the act because it is outdated, as it now stands. Under the act, the loss of a milch-cow is assessed at $70, which was good 15 years ago, but not today.
I believe the act should have been updated to assist those farmers and to prevent the present price drop. I hope the minister will re-examine this famous act to prevent a repetition of this situation should another outbreak occur; it could be amended to provide subsidies on the basis of the present cost of cattle or milch-cows.
Another problem I should like to point out to the minister-and I do not want to take up too much time-concerns the potato crop in my region. Two or three years ago, several farmers began growing potatoes. Their crop, especially this year, was excellent, but the sales are not as good. We realized this fall that we had no markets at all. Since the minister has established the Canadian Livestock Feed Board, I believe it is time to set up a board for Quebec products in order to guarantee the producers the sale of their production, for I believe we shall witness this winter the loss of great quantities of potatoes. This fall, the crop is sold at 50 cents for 75 lbs, which is far below production costs, and I think 50 per cent of the farmers will not be able to sell their crop for the year even at 50 cents because there is no market.
I am drawing the minister's attention to this matter because something must be done about it, and immediately. If the farmers who have invested everything they had in potato growing in the last year or two are not helped now, what will happen next year? They will not grow any, there will be another shortage and potatoes will have to be imported, whereas our area can produce them not only in sufficient quantity to satisfy the local demand but also the export market.
Our soil is particularly suited to potato growing, and I think the minister should consider this matter and assure those who, in the past year or two, have invested money in this and who have built storehouses at a cost of $10,000, $15,000 and even $20,000, that the potatoes they have grown will not rot in their capacity-filled storehouses. I know that all we

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have to do at the present is to call the minister's attention to this matter, for the wellbeing of farmers is very important to him, not only in the province of Quebec, but throughout Canada, and I am confident that he will do something this fall to try and help them.
Just a few words in passing about the Farm Credit Corporation. I would have much to say about this corporation, but I would simply ask the minister to order an investigation into activity of the Farm Credit Corporation. I do not suggest that everything is wrong. A good and I would say a marvellous job is being done in some areas, but I say errors are committed which are detrimental to agriculture. For instance, I have submitted a case on which I have finally been informed that the investigation was being resumed. In some cases, one wonders whether it is not the purpose of some inspectors and investigators to drive farmers away from their farms, instead of helping them.
Two young men who operate a marvellous farm, who have a large flock, have just built, at their own expense, a large potato cellar costing $10,000. Now, they cannot meet their commitments. They applied for assistance to this federal agancy and they were told that no help could be provided. After those people have made sacrifices for two years, they are told that nothing whatsoever can be done for them and to declare themselves bankrupt.
Mr. Chairman, it is not by bankruptcies that farmers are going to thrive. I hope that what I have referred to will be settled, because a second investigation is under way, and I ask the minister-without rushing matters, because I do not want to criticize anybody-to send over some of the competent men in his department to make sure that everything runs smoothly, that everything is done in an orderly manner for, in my opinion, there are some shortcomings that remain unexplained.
I had intended to talk about farm machinery but previous speakers covered that subject fully. I wish to say only that it is imperative that the Minister of Agriculture should exercise or set up some control over the price of farm machinery because it is on account of the price of farm implements that farmers get so deeply into debt. As a matter of fact, it is another reason for the failure of agriculture at the present time. I think that there is a way for the federal government to control those prices which are certainly too high. I sold farm machinery myself for 20 years and I cannot understand at all the prices of machinery today compared to what they were 15 years ago.

If some control must be set up, I urge the minister to avail himself of the means at his disposal; prices should be controlled or farmers helped directly to allow them to acquire the machinery they need to work their farms or their land as economically as possible.
[DOT] (3:50 p.m.)


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: will enable the producers to receive their cheques on time.
Let me discuss for a moment or two the acute shortage of livestock railway cars which exists in western Canada in October and November each year. This subject can properly be brought to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture because the cleaning and disinfecting of cattle cars before being returned to western Canada comes under the jurisdiction of the health of animals branch of that department.
It is not my suggestion that these cars do not need cleaning and disinfecting, but it seems to me that if the Department of Agriculture is responsible in this regard it should look into this situation to see whether there is some way to speed up the disinfecting process, particularly during the period of shortage in the fall when there is an unusually heavy demand for these cars for the shipment of feeder cattle from western to central and eastern Canada. It is my understanding that there is a small cleaning and disinfecting operation in Toronto and a substantial one in Winnipeg. This year another one was reactivated at Moose Jaw. If anything can be done to put on extra staff or streamline these processing methods I hope the department will do so.
On two or three occasions last year and this year the price of livestock in southern Alberta has dropped by 2 cents to 4 cents per pound because cattle that had been purchased had to be held in feed lots as a result of a shortage of cars. Buyers were not interested in buying more cattle until they had received the cattle already purchased. This was sometimes disastrous to the farmer whose year's production was in the form of feeder cattle. This may not have had such a disastrous effect on the whole market because the shortage was eventually overcome but it was disastrous to 20, 50 or 100 individual farmers who happened to be selling to the market when there was a shortage of cars. I hope something can be done to solve this problem.
I have made recommendations to the auction markets in western Canada with the hope that they can help to correct this problem by spreading out sales a little more. In this way they could avoid selling 50 per cent to 75 per cent of the total number of feeder cattle within a three-week period. No matter how many cars are available there is a physical limitation to the number of cattle that can be moved in one week. If too such of this activity is concentrated into a short space of time
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trouble will develop. Perhaps with the cooperation of the livestock markets, the railway companies and the health of animals branch this problem can be worked out.
It is my understanding that the minister stated in Saskatoon last week that the price of wheat on the international market is going to increase. When the minister replies I hope he will tell us when this will happen and indicate the extent of the increase to western wheat producers. Perhaps he will also give us an indication whether or not he is actively considering with his colleagues in the cabinet increasing initial payments to producers of wheat on delivery. I am keenly interested in the minister's contention that the price of wheat on the world market under the international agreement is going to go up. An increase has been justified for several years. We are now moving into something of a sellers' market which will perhaps make it easier to increase the price of wheat.
The last point I wish to refer to the minister relates to the research branch of the Department of Agriculture and methods farmers can use to take advantage of the information emanating from that branch. In my own constituency the ranch station has carried out research and experimentation in respect of the development of techniques to increase substantially the carrying capacity of ranches in southern Alberta. After considering the number of farmers and ranchers who are actually taking full advantage of this information supplied as a result of research and experimentation I have come to the conclusion that it is pitifully low.
[DOT] (4:00 p.m.)
Let me commend the Department of Agriculture and the research and experimental people in that branch for the good work they have done. They have published information; I am not complaining about that. They have published reports in newspapers and have followed all the usual procedures to get this information before the farmers and encourage them to use it. But I am still of the opinion that it is not being used to the degree it should be. Therefore I wonder whether some other action could not be taken by way of setting up demonstration plots so that these techniques can be put right under the nose of the farmer. In this way we could prove to him that it is profitable to accept and follow this advice.
I am a little remiss in this connection because a few months ago I promised the minister I would send him a memorandum on how

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this could best be done with respect to the agricultural research station in my riding, and so tar I have not done so. I have discussed the matter with some of the minister's officials at that agricultural research station and they are aware of my opinions in this regard. I will send the memorandum to the minister as soon as I am able to complete it. I raise the matter now because I should like to have a favourable response from the minister in regard to including in some new program an item of expense for better ways and means of putting this research and the results of the experimentation right in front of the farmers.
I thank the committee for its attention to these remarks. I shall not say any more at this time because, as I said at the outset, we have had a very good opportunity to discuss and examine in great detail the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. I think they probably had a more thorough examination this year than at any time in the past.


Mr. Reid:: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to take up too much of the time of the committee, because we have spent the grand total of 67 days, 2 hours and 39 minutes on estimates in this session of parliament. However, there are two points I should like to make to the minister which concern my constituency. The first point concerns the milk producers and cream producers in my area who are suffering considerable hardship at the present time. First of all, I think the minister should be congratulated upon the fact that the subsidy payments are now to be made on a monthly basis. This has certainly improved the situation of the milk producers.
However, there is in my area at least one cream producer who is slowly going broke and now finds himself in the peculiar position of being forced to import butter from the province of Manitoba at cost in order to supply a very good local market. He has to do this because there is not sufficient money being paid to encourage the farmers in the area to produce cream. In view of the fact, as has already been pointed out in this debate, that the country is experiencing a shortage of butter at this time, I believe this is an area to which the minister should pay considerable attention.
The other point I want to put before the minister relates very closely to what was just said by the hon. member for Medicine Hat when commenting on the fact that the estimates of the Department of Agriculture were very thoroughly examined. An interesting addendum to that comment is the fact that the

estimates of the various departments have been considered in a total of 187 meetings of house committees this year.
All the excellent information which has been provided by the department is not being distributed as well as it might. I would like to know to whom the various departmental publications on research activities and various new methods of farming are distributed.
Another fact in connection with this matter is that I believe farms are now becoming businesses more and more because of the records we force farmers to keep. These records are required for the various programs of government at all levels. The amount of failure in the farming profession seems to be increasing. We are told that last year 4,000 small businesses failed. I think farming is now becoming more and more a small business rather than a way of life. It seems to me that a great many of these failures could be avoided if there were some means of providing education or training in the modern techniques of business management.
Many small farms are run solely on the brains and ability of one or two people, the husband and/or the wife. The burdens we have imposed on them under the marketing system, particularly by reason of the necessity of their keeping the records we require, have made it almost impossible for farmers to spend as much time farming as they would like. They spend more and more of their time becoming bookkeepers.
The farms in my area are small. The farmers do not have the education that is perhaps necessary to cope with providing these records. They are trying to improve their situation by taking Program 5 courses, but they still require more training in the field of up-to-date management. Therefore I suggest that these are two areas to which the Minister of Agriculture might give further consideration.


Mr. Nasserden:: Mr. Chairman, in rising to deal with these estimates one cannot help acknowledging the fact that when each party in the house is allowed only about two speakers during the consideration of these estimates in the house, it restricts discussion of some of the facets of our agricultural program to which the House of Commons should give attention. Much has been made of the fact that some days have been spent on these estimates by the agricultural committee. This was a worthy endeavour for those members who had come here for the first time and perhaps needed instruction about where to get the information they needed in order to acquaint themselves
November 25, 1966

with some of the problems in their areas. However, without consideration of these problems by the House of Commons, much of what took place in the agricultural committee this year was nothing but a waste of the members' time in so far as bringing forward new policies to deal with the problems which face people in agriculture is concerned.
This has been a difficult year for the agricultural industry of Canada. It has been faced with rising costs; it has been faced with an increasing labour shortage; it has been faced with the effects of the strikes we have had in industry; it has been faced with a situation whereby in large areas of our country farmers have had to resort to strike action as a protest against the indifference of the government of the day. In addition to these difficulties, the industry is faced with the rising cost of more sophisticated implements that today are becoming a normal and necessary part of any farming operation.
I have not said anything about the rising cost of land, but the demand for industrial and urban acreage today is contributing to the increasing cost of land. On more than one occasion in the past few months the question of the price of farm machinery has been discussed. The price of farm machinery has been rising almost continually. It is true that many of these machines are much different from what they were only a few years ago. But after listening to those members who condemn the implement companies left and right I want to put on record that many of the dealer organizations should not be included in that condemnation. A great many dealers across the country have gone broke because of the situation that exists at the present time. We need stronger dealer organizations in the farm implements field because of the very nature of those implements. We need the type of help which these dealer organizations can give and which the farmers require in the face of the shortage of farm labour we are now experiencing in this country.
The government has promised for many months to do something about the price of farm implements. They have set up a commission to study this matter but if it operates in the same manner as commissions set up for that purpose in the past have it will not solve the problem with which farmers are faced, namely, the rising cost of machinery.
[DOT] (4:10 p.m.)
Reference was made to the discontinuance of the implement evaluation tests which were carried out in the province of Saskatchewan.
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Not only was this an insult to the farmers in that province but it was also an insult to those manufacturers because of the research that they themselves had carried out on the machines which they put out on the market, machines which could stand up to any that were put on the market by their competitors. These tests were supposed to tell the farm people in general which of the machines were most effective to do the job they wanted done.
Another matter, which was previously dealt with by hon. members, has come to my attention recently, namely, the minister's preoccupation with what he calls "marginal farmers". I know that reference has been made to marginal farms but the minister initiated the new term "marginal farmers". I think this is an insult to the agricultural industry and to those engaged in it. There are many people who have the makings of successful farmers but because of location, lack of capital, shortgage of help, and also because of the actions taken or sometimes not taken by the government, have found themselves in an adverse situation. This brings to my mind the situation which exists at Brancepeth in the province of Saskatchewan where, because of a differential of three-quarters of a cent per bushel on wheat delivered at Brancepeth in competition with Birch Hills and Weldon, the farmers over a period of 35 years have lost more than $100,000. This is a factor over which they have no control and the government should give its attention to it. During the discussion of the estimates of the transport department I was unable to speak on his subject but I will write the Minister of Transport in that regard in the hope the something can be done about it.
One of the problems facing Canadian farmers today is the serious shortage of farm labour. On a previous occasion I asked the government whether they would try to initiate a policy of immigration whereby people could be brought to Canada to take part in this activity. I now suggest to the minister that the government consider the subsidization of housing for farm labourers. If the government wants men to stay on the farm to help with the work they should provide them with houses comparable with those which they could obtain anywhere else. The government should consider this matter seriously.
On a previous occasion I pointed out that sheep production in Canada is at an all-time low. On that occasion the Prime Minister promised to get in touch with the minister who

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would try to do something about this particular section of our agricultural program. I now wish to renew the plea to the government to initiate a sheep promotion program for the benefit of our Canadian industry. There are large areas in Canada suitable for sheep production and which are almost a wasteland as far as agricultural production is concerned.
Other hon. members have dealt with the dairy policy. All I wish to say in this regard is that the minister has destroyed the small cream producers in this country. Today we are about to import butter into Canada, which is another blow at what has been described in the past as the small family farm. However, the greatest blow struck at the agricultural industry was the imposition several years ago of an 11 per cent sales tax on production machinery. This, coupled with the encouragement of an increase in interest rates, has ensured a steady rise in the prices of commodities necessary to maintain a farm. Canada today has the highest cost of living in the world but we are in need of these commodities whose cost will spiral in the months ahead because of government policies.
The year 1966 has been a year of labour unrest in Canada. Farm people in general are in favour of some kind of an industrial court to take care of management-labour problems. On this occasion there is no time to go more fully into that matter but this is one of the subjects to which the government should give further examination.
Another matter with which I should like to deal has to do with the total food production of the nation. We should ask ourselves whether Canada is producing the maximum of which it is capable. However, before dealing with this subject I should like to speak for a minute about grain in western Canada. I was heartened to hear the minister's assertion made in western Canada that the initial price for wheat or grains will be increased. Furthermore, I welcomed his intimation that the prices under the international wheat agreement will be raised. These are long overdue decisions and I congraulate the minister for whatever effort he may have put into reaching them. I have been critical of the government for what I term their lackadaisical attitude in regard to the revision of prices under the international wheat agreement, but in view of his recent announcement I will be one of the first to congratulate him.
With regard to food production in this country, all of us know that the people of the world are facing a food shortage. We in Canada are proud of our good research team

in this field. This is a subject with which I am familiar in a limited way only but it affects the people at Saskatoon. I am referring to the work being done with regard to the irrigation program in the South Saskatchewan river valley by the National Research Council.
I should like to ask the minister to consider the possibility of a change in attitude with regard to the policy which has been in effect for many years now, and I would urge him, when the research scientists present estimates of their requirements, to encourage them to aim at the maximum effort instead of the minimum. I believe that if this is done at the station in Saskatoon, other areas across the country will follow and in this way we will fulfil our role as one of the great producers of the world at a time when food is in such short supply.
I would now like to say a word or two about freight rates as they affect rapeseed and rapeseed meal and oil in the province of Saskatchewan. There is only time to mention that this is a problem which continues to require attention. Someone told me that the final payment for the 1965 sugarbeet crop has not yet been made. If this is so I should like to ask the minister to tell us the reason. The problem of the great fluctuation in the price of eggs continues to exist in the province of Saskatchewan. This brings to my mind the fact that on more than one occasion the government has promised to consider allowing members of the stabilization board to appear as witnesses before the committee on agriculture. This has not been done and it is long overdue.
[DOT] (4:20 p.m.)
I want to say a few words about the troubles of fruit growers. It is not possible in the few minutes at my disposal to do more than touch on the problems of the growers of so many of our products across the land. One could devote the three hours allotted for the discussion of the agricultural estimates to the problems of specialized farmers, because they are faced with the encroachment of those who seek land for industrial and urban purposes. This discussion must be left to another day.
The minister has had a difficult time during the past year because difficult problems face the agricultural industry. These problems have been made even more difficult because of the actions taken by this government in creating artificial impediments to the welfare of the economy. Specifically I refer to the 11 per cent sales tax and the impact that has had on the agricultural industry. It has led to the
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highest cost of living in Canada's history. The other trend I deplore is the increase in interest rates encouraged by the government since it has come to office. The minister is trying to do a good job but I cannot say that those near him on the treasury benches are sympathetic to the problems of agriculture. Looking at what has happened one cannot help but see the indifference of this government to the problems facing those in agriculture, and one can only encourage the minister and hope that somehow he will catch the ear of the ministers with whom he sits.


Mr. McLelland:: Mr. Chairman, in rising to speak at this time I do so in order to ask the Minister of Agriculture a few questions about the government's attitude regarding certain aspects of the agricultural industry. I also hope during the few minutes at my disposal to suggest a few things that I think could be done to aid agriculture, to make this segment of our economy more attractive for the people involved in it and also to attract more people into the industry.
First, I think the minister would agree with me that all people directly connected with the agricultural industry are there for one main reason, to produce food. Food is the one necessity of all mankind. It is the only thing that humans and other animals will risk their lives to attain. It is of great importance that we try to produce enough food to feed the population explosion of the world. People involved in food production should be given the proper incentives to stay in the business, to improve the quality of their produce and to develop new products as the demand increases. In order to do this the government should look very closely at problems as they arise in the agricultural industry.
In the segment of the industry in which I am engaged, the production of cereal grains, when one considers that wheat is in demand in most developed and underdeveloped countries in the world I think the minister would agree with me that production of wheat should be kept attractive to those involved. When one considers that the price per bushel of wheat has not varied a great deal in 27 years, I am sure the minister will agree that this part of the agricultural industry is lagging behind. At my home delivery point at the present time No. 2 wheat is worth $1.28J. Last year's final payment, which was approximately 37 cents for No. 2 wheat, gave a final return per bushel to the producer of approximately $1.65, minus the 1 per cent payable for the P.F.A.A. insurance allocation. Surely the minister must
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agree that an all-out effort ought to be made for an immediate increase in the price per bushel of wheat to the producer. Applying the 30 per cent increase formula, one can see that we should be receiving $2.15 per bushel. Surely the minister will try to get the other members of the cabinet to agree to this level.
The prices of farm machinery, farm trucks and all other items essential in the production of cereal grains are now at an all-time high and still they continue to rise. I know the minister has a commission investigating this problem but I am not too hopeful of great results. I suggest that the Minister of Agriculture say to the Minister of Finance that the quickest way to help the wheat farmer is by raising the price of wheat so that all may benefit, and also by raising the personal income tax deduction thus lowering total taxable income.
I remind the minister that to purchase equipment a farmer must sell his produce in large quantities. When the farmer does that he is caught in a higher tax bracket, with harmful effects. If the government cannot do anything about the price of farm machinery it can help by lowering the percentage of tax on taxable income for farmers so that when farmers have products to sell, which does not happen every year, they do not have to pay so much.
Also, Mr. Chairman, a good, close look should be taken at the cattle industry. The government will have to provide more incentive to cattlemen to encourage them to produce stock cows. As no scientific discovery has yet shown that livestock can be produced other than by using females for reproduction, I think the government ought to develop more P.F.R.A. pastures for grazing in which stock cows and their calves can be raised. Such confined areas, which should be under the supervision of a P.F.R.A. pasture manager, could feed cows and their calves. Through artificial insemination stocks could also be increased. In this way additional grazing land could be employed to help the situation.
I wish to bring to the minister's attention recent figures released by the Economic Council of Canada. On page 137 of the November, 1966 report, is shown the rapid decline in net farm income from farm production. The report shows that income has dropped from 10 percentage points for 1950-53 to 5 percentage points for 1960-65. Surely the farmers ought not to be asked to take a 50 per cent drop in net return over a period of 15 years. Good crops in the west in the past few

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years have kept farmers on the average producing as much as they have. The government has done very little to develop policies aiding the farmers in the last few years. Farmers are asked to purchase new insecticides and pesticides, new varieties of seeds, new machinery, all of which are expensive. Still the farmer's income declines under the government's policies. Surely the time has come for the government to look at the plight of the Canadian farmer whose income declines as costs rise. When the new budget is produced I hope it will include tax reductions for our farmers. I hope the minister will use his offices to get our farmers their fair share of the national income.
The Economic Council shows that when labourers or labour forces receive increased pay they do not use that increase to buy food but spend it on things such as furniture, household items, pleasure items, cars and so on. When the government helps other segments of our economy it is not directly aiding the farmers of Canada. Helping other segments has an adverse effect on the farmers because manufacturers know that our labour force has a high income and the manufacturers set policies to charge what they feel the market will stand. Farmers purchase many of the same items that members of the labour force purchase and find themselves caught in a squeeze because of declining incomes. I should like to know if the minister has new, exciting policies to encourage the future of our farms, especially those in western Canada, so that our farmers may enjoy increased benefits.
[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)


Barry Mather: Mr. Chairman, in four or five minutes I should like to put forward a few ideas which I am sure the minister has heard before but possibly it will do no harm to repeat them and it might even lead to more action than has been taken so far by the department.
First, I should like to compliment the new minister. I am sure many hon. members will agree with me when I say he is an improvement over the previous minister. The previous minister was often invisible in the house and when he was here he was often incomprehensible. The present minister is at least visible.
Having said that, let me say in more serious vein that the problems of agriculture which we are discussing today have to be considered against a background of involved and changing situations. One basic point which occurs to me is that we live on a continent where for

the first time we are able to produce more than we can consume. Yet we live in a world where hundreds of millions go to bed hungry every night.
Against this background I would recommend a rereading of the brief submitted earlier this year by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. The brief begins with these words:
The keynote of a discussion of farm policy at this time should be the need for sustained action based on a constructive partnership between government, parliament and farmers.
In line with this philosophy I commend the following points for consideration by the minister: There is a need for effective action to meet the farm labour problems of Canada. There is a need for a more systematic organization or agricultural product marketing through national boards or commissions. There is a need for further improvement and extension of crop insurance. There is a need for a united drive against rural poverty which places one-quarter of our population in a submerged economic condition. There is a need for improvement in farm credit services.
These are some of the issues which confront anyone who is concerned with Canadian agriculture at this time. The time I have allotted to me does not permit me to go into detail on these points. I should like to bring my remarks to a conclusion by referring to one or two issues which confront agriculturists in British Columbia, the province from which I come.
I wish to go on record as supporting the brief presented not long ago by the British Columbia Federation of Agriculture to the transport committee of the house. This urged that grain moving into British Columbia for consumption in the province should be given the same favourable freight rate as grain moved into British Columbia for export. A change in th:s d;rection would be of great benefit to British Columbia.
In addition, I would urge consideration of the brief of the British Columbia government in which the transport committee was urged to allow grain moving into British Columbia for export to the United States and Alaska to receive the same beneficial freight rate as is applied to grain brought into British Columbia for shipment to the Orient.
Having made these few remarks I wish to commend the minister sincerely on the action he has taken to date and urge him to take into consideration the many constructive suggestions raised by members on the opposition side.
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Mr. Forbes:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a few brief remarks while the estimates of the Department of Agriculture are before us. In view of the excellent speeches which have been made on the subject of agriculture this afternoon I will confine my observations principally to the aspect of rising costs within the industry. I am prompted to do so owing to the inequitable position in which agriculture finds itself at the present time because of the spiralling costs of production.
The average farmer is concerned about conditions under which he can receive fair recompense for his labours and for his investment in land and equipment. But when he finds his profit margin less and less each year, he becomes concerned about the profits accruing in the field of retail distribution. And as the producer of the nation's food, he has every right to expect the government to do something about it.
We hear a lot of comment about efficiency in agricultural production, but farmers have always been efficient producers. The inequitable position in which they have been placed compared with other industry has compelled them to operate economically.
Now a word about costs. Increased wages of organized labour are having an inflationary effect upon the whole Canadian economy and are the main reason why farmers' income is not keeping ahead of costs. Labour unions are very aggressive and nearly always request a 15 to 20 per cent increase in wages, and recently as high as 30 per cent; I refer to the longshoremen and dock workers.
Farmers take the brunt of inflation because over 30 per cent of the products they sell are sold at world prices-the percentage is much higher in western Canada-while everything farmers buy is based on a domestic price.
According to statistics provided by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and the Federation of Agriculture, between 1949 and 1963 the average net income in constant dollars of farmers in Canada increased only 7.8 per cent; yet average weekly manufacturing wages increased 42.8 per cent, and if we had the figures for the past three years I am sure the disparity noted would be much greater. I do not want my remarks to be interpreted that I am faulting labour for demanding a rate of pay commensurate with a decent standard of living. But I do emphasize that we must have a policy to ensure the purchasing power of farmers and labour if we hope to have a prosperous economy.
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The time has arrived for an agricultural policy to attain this objective. The best customer of industry is the farmer because farmers are consumers as well as producers. But I ask this question: Is the government concerned about a price for agricultural products that will enable the farmers to stay on their farms and enjoy an equal standard of living? In other words, has the government an agricultural policy that is forward looking, especially with respect to prices for agricultural products?
I was particularly interested in a speech by the Minister of Finance in Toronto on November 10. He was speaking about the recent federal-provincial conference. I will just quote one paragraph.
The measure to stabilize provincial revenues will enable the provinces to harmonize their fiscal actions with those of the federal government in the event of a recession, and at the same time we have made it clear that the federal government will continue to use joint federal-provincial measures where necessary to ensure economic growth and stability, and to achieve other important national objectives.
What is the policy of the Minister of Agriculture to provide stability for agriculture at the present time and in the event of a recession? I am certain the farmers would like to know. In order to buy the necessary machinery to work their land in this technological age and, in some cases, purchase more land for what is called an efficient unit, farmers have been borrowing a tremendous amount of money. According to the chairman of the Farm Credit Corporation, demand for credit has risen sharply with 11,238 loans amounting to $208,984,900 being approved in the fiscal year ended March 31.
[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)
In my province of Manitoba 899 Farm Credit Corporation loans were advanced for a total of $14,879,500. This does not include loans made by the provincial farm loan board, which I am advised came to approximately $7 million. Farm improvement loans for the past year totalled $71,112,489, and farm machinery loans approximately $900,000. In addition there were loans made by credit unions, but I do not have any figures for them. If these figures indicate anything it is that farm income is too low to enable farmers to buy the necessary machinery and add to their holdings from revenue received from the sale of farm products.
I now wish to say a word about farm machinery. We acknowledge the prices of farm machinery are responsible for a large part of

November 25, 1966
Supply-Agriculture
farm operating costs, and we know that the minister has appointed a commission to inquire into the rapid rise in machinery prices. While I have every confidence in the personnel of the commission, I am wondering what action they could recommend in order to lower prices. It may be a year or more before the commission submits a report and in the interval farmers will be required to pay the prices asked by the machinery companies. In the event that we have two or three short crops in succession the results will be disastrous. The state would own most of the land and we would be headed for a system that is not conducive to a democracy.
Let us take a further look at costs. The minister of agriculture for Saskatchewan gave a fair illustration of the rapid rise in cash farm operational costs. He said that the increase was 20 per cent in Saskatchewan from 1961 to 1964 and if depreciation costs were added it was 24 per cent. The records of farm management clubs show that from 1960 to 1964 the operating costs per cultivated acre increased from $8.40 to $10.20. Depreciation costs increased in that period from $1.87 to $2.17, and investment costs increased from $3.14 to $4.01 on land at $39 per acre and, adding the labour costs of the operator and his family at $1 per hour, total farm costs per cultivated acre rose from $18.74 to $21.36.
To cover total costs a farmer would need to get an average grain yield of 24 bushels per acre at $1.75 per bushel, or 28.5 bushels per acre at $1.50. The yields suggested as necessary to cover the costs are considerably above the long-time average. Hon. members will note that he based his figures on land at $39 an acre. I do not know where you can buy good farm land at that price. In Manitoba it is priced at $100 and over per acre, and of course this would increase the costs of operation considerably. I would also remind the committee that these figures I have given do not include the increases in costs that have taken place during the last two years. The point I wish to make is that when you take into consideration the costs of farm operation and the price received for farm produce, farm loans are not a solution to the cost-price problem.
I now wish to put on record a resolution passed by Riding Mountain Farm Union Local 70 to indicate to the minister the thoughts of farmers on this problem. I shall not read the

full preamble to the resolution which reads as follows:
Be it resolved that an annual acreage payment of $2 per acre up to 200 acres be paid to every farmer with less than 501 acres listed in his 1965-66 Wheat Board permit book.
These farmers in this local by this resolution indicate their own thoughts and the thoughts of others in the province that the time has arrived because of the present cost-price squeeze that they need something in the form of a subsidy. I realize that the minister will be a little hesitant about recommending a subsidy to his colleagues in the cabinet. I for one would much prefer to see increased prices for agricultural products rather than any form of subsidy, but in this connection I would like to quote from a comparison report written by C. Knowlton Nash which appeared in the Canadian Farm Digest last spring, dealing with agriculture in the United States and in Canada. It reads in part as follows:
Canada has a widespread agricultural price support program, but it is a midget program compared to what Washington hands out as subsidies to farmers. Total U.S. government payments in 1964 amounted to $2,170 million, not counting extensive export subsidies on key agricultural products which amount into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
For wheat alone, the U.S. government provided domestic subsidies of one form or another last year amounting to well over $400 million and not a bushel of U.S. wheat is sold abroad without a heavy U.S. government export subsidy.
In the light of that report I can understand why a director of the Manitoba pool elevators said at their annual meeting last spring that surely the government could not expect the farmers of western Canada to compete with the treasury of the United States.
In the Liberal party farm program announced by the Prime Minister on Wednesday, October 6, 1965, the Prime Minister states:
The goal of the government's farm policy is that the family farm should be able to produce a living as good as the average industrial wage which is at present about $4,200 a year.
This ties in with my remarks about farm costs. What I would like to know is what the government proposes to do to implement that commitment in the present situation. I ask the minister, what steps has the government planned to fulfil this commitment? I suggest to the minister that his department should carry out research into production and marketing and be in a position to advise farmers on the prospect of markets for their products. I refer to Climax timothy as one example.
November 25, 1966

Over the years the government has endeavoured to induce farmers to diversify their production into such things as forage crops, chickens, etc. As part of this diversification farmers in Manitoba have gone into the production of forage crops. A few years ago there was a good market for these crops but at the present time the market is very low. I do not know if the minister is aware of this situation, and for his benefit I shall quote from an agricultural report published by his department on October 14, 1966:
Timothy: A crop of nearly 25 million pounds is forecast with the variety Climax accounting for nearly half of it. If the estimated amount is realized, the crop will exceed that of 1965 by about 8 million pounds and will top the previous record crop of 1960 by 2 million pounds. The estimated production is also 64 per cent greater than the ten-year average of 15,234,000 pounds. In addition to the 1966 production there was a carryover at June 30 of 4.6 million pounds-nearly four times that in 1965 and more than double the ten-year average carryover.
Surely, Mr. Minister, farmers are not in a position to inquire into the needs of the market. This is a service your department should give them. Had these farmers in Manitoba known last year that there was going to be such a huge surplus of Climax timothy they would have broken up their land and planted it with flax or some other remunerative crop. Last year certified Climax timothy sold in the Winnipeg area at 23.5 cents per pound. This year the dealers are offering 8 cents a pound. Surely there should be some guide lines from the department to indicate to farmers what they should produce and to indicate the needs of the market.
[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)
In concluding my remarks on this occasion I suggest to the minister that there are certain considerations which should be taken into account in an effort to keep farm costs under control. First there should be a review of the Agricultural Stabilization Act, keeping in mind that this act now is ten years old. It has not been updated and farmers are suffering in this regard. It should be reviewed in an effort to bring it more in line with present day production costs.
The next matter which should be considered is the Crowsnest freight rates. They should remain as they are. There should be no increase in the St. Lawrence Seaway tolls. The 11 per cent sales tax on building materials should be removed. Let me cite one case. I know of a young fellow who built a machine shed last year. It cost a little over $4,000. In addition to the problem in respect of the
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shortage of money and the low prices for his agricultural products he was obliged to pay $440 in sales tax on the material which went into that shed. The time has now arrived when the government should announce a policy for agriculture that will ensure to the farmer a price for his products which will bear a fair relationship to the cost of production plus a reasonable margin of profit.


Mr. Rapp:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity to deal with some of the problems with which farmers are faced. My colleagues in my party have pretty well covered all the problems but there is one with which I should like to deal. I refer to the cost of farm machinery. I should like to give credit to the Minister of Agriculture for having set up a commission to inquire into the cost of farm machinery, but the sad story in respect of this commission is that it is so terribly slow. I am sure it will take another three or four years before the commission will complete its inquiry and make its recommendations. In order to alleviate the serious problem facing the farmers I suggest to the minister that he see to it that the prices of farm machinery are frozen. In other words, during the time the investigation is under way the prices of farm machinery should remain the same as they were when the commission was first set up. Otherwise, before the report comes forward from the commission the prices of farm machinery will be so high that we will need another commission to investigate the reason prices rose so high during the time the investigation was being carried on.
I bring to the attention of the minister that unless this is done very few young farmers will be in a position to start farming on their own initiative or even to be able to take over where their fathers perhaps left off. This is the biggest problem facing the farmers today. In addition, the cost of the other items which a farmer must purchase is going up. The hon. member who just spoke mentioned the sales tax of 11 per cent. This is a big factor. Usually when a farmer reaches the point where he wishes to establish a new farm enterprise he has to build a new home, new machinery sheds and other buildings. The 11 per cent sales tax on building materials certainly is a great problem to those farmers who are starting up.
Of course, there are many other problems. For instance, with railway abandonments the farmers will be faced with difficulties in delivering their grain long distances to the elevators. The farmers very much appreciate the

November 25, 1966
S upp ly-A griculture
fact that for the time being railway abandonments will not take place, as was suggested here a few minutes ago. I also suggest that the minister pay a little more attention to the situation in respect of western agriculture. I know he has done some good work in so far as grain prices and milk prices are concerned, but there are still other problems with which we are faced, particularly in the summer when the price of eggs goes down very low.
I have had on the order paper for a long time a bill to provide that the Stabilization Board will arrange the prices by regions and seasons. For instance, in the prairie provinces the farmers are faced with low prices and when the Stabilization Board makes the calculation in respect of the final payments what happens is that when they take the average of the low prices on the prairies and the high prices in the eastern provinces the people in the eastern provinces receive the same deficiency payment that is received by the farmers in the west. I have brought this to the attention of the government on more than one occasion. I hope that the minister will take into consideration, when reading the speeches which have been made here, the matter of the Stabilization Board so that western farmers in particular will receive a fair price so far as eggs and hogs are concerned.
I suggest to the minister that the commission which is investigating the prices of farm machinery should be asked to speed up its investigation. Second, I suggest to him that there should be a freeze on the prices of farm machinery so that at this time the companies will not be able to continue increasing the prices.


Mr. Brand:: Mr. Chairman, representing an urban riding as I do it may seem somewhat strange that I am rising to speak on the agricultural estimates. I think that the minister, having recently visited my riding, knows that every business and every area of the economy in my city is dependent upon prosperity in the farming area surrounding the city of Saskatoon. This is the reason I feel it is incumbent upon me to emphasize as forcefully as I can the remarks which have been made on this side of the house today concerning the manner in which farm income has decreased while we still have spiralling costs all across the country. When the price of farm land is going up every day and when nothing is being done about the high cost of farm machinery it is evident that the farmer does not have in his pocket the kind of money which those in many other segments of our economy have. I 
should like to see the minister initiate a policy which would do something to improve this situation. In this regard I emphasize what has already been said today.
[DOT] (5:00 p.m.)
I recall a private member's bill which was brought in by the hon. member for Hum-boldt-Melfort-Tisdale with regard to unemployment insurance for farm workers. I have heard it stated that the government intends to do something about it, but what has happened to this intention we have heard so much about? This is very important in view of the great shortage of farm labour that exists across Canada and particularly in the province of Saskatchewan.
At this time the great South Saskatchewan dam project is under way. I hope that irrigation will come into effect in this area in the near future. While this is largely a provincial matter some direction from the Minister of Agriculture would go a long way toward encouraging the efficient use of agricultural land in this area. The minister well knows that cereal grain can be produced on one acre of land but that beef cattle cannot. Through encouragement the province of Saskatchewan could, in co-operation with the Department of Agriculture, make it known to the people in the area that by means of irrigation cereal and fodder crops could be grown, as a result of which more beef cattle could be produced in Saskatchewan. I urge the minister to do everything in his power to see that measures along these lines are adopted as soon as possible.
It is amazing to me, with the tremendous resources we have in this country, that we still have to import into Canada the broilers used by roadside chicken stands. We cannot produce enough broilers in our own province to meet this demand. Surely some of the provisions of ARDA could be used to encourage greater production of this kind in Saskatchewan in order to assist in meeting the food requirements of Canada as well as the rest of the world.
Many of our pork products could be exported as a result of a tremendous trade drive.
I am sure these products would be welcomed in Asian countries. Perhaps the minister can do something along this line.
It is disappointing that while we have plants for the production of edible vegetable oils, such as rapeseed oil, there are no special freight rates in existence to permit cheaper transportation of this product across this country. Something should be done about this.
November 25, 1966



Preferential freight rate treatment should be given to the producers of edible vegetable oil in Saskatchewan and other parts of the country.
It was strange and disappointing that as soon as national housing mortgage money was made available to small towns the interest rate was increased. This adds once again to the cost which must be borne by the rural areas of this country. Surely the minister could meet with his colleague the Minister of Finance and point out the inequity of this situation at this time.
Again I suppose I am treading on the toes of the Minister of Finance when I refer to the estate tax charged in rural areas as well as in the rest of the country. If we intend to encourage farmers to stay on the land, and certainly the trend of movement has been toward urban centres, we should ameliorate the estate tax provisions so that widows do not have to sell their farms. What is happening now is that widows must sell their assets to pay the taxes, as a result of which the farmland is lost to the family and becomes part of a larger farm unit. This is happening in spite of the efforts of this party when it was in power to try to preserve family farms through crop payments and so forth. There are many ways of looking after the estate tax problem. Either the exemption could be tripled or a widow could be given several years to pay the tax, relieving her of the obligation to sell her assets to meet this tax burden.
I do not have much more to say but I did want to make those few points and emphasize what other members have said. I encourage the minister to look once again at the port of Churchill which is only a few hundred miles from the province of Saskatchewan. Greater and better use of that port is essential in order to cut down the world price of products produced in Saskatchewan.
I am always amazed when I walk into a grocery store here-I know the minister has made similar sojourns himself, though more publicized than mine-to find that I can buy Danish bacon at 82 cents a pound compared with Canadian bacon which ranges in price from $1.19 per pound for side bacon to $1.85 or $1.95 for back bacon. Surely something can be done for these producers in respect of this very serious problem.


John James Greene: Mr. Chairman, I should like at this time to try to answer some of the queries posed by hon. members opposite. First of all I should like to commend the committee on agriculture, forestry and rural development
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for the serious and exhaustive study it made of the estimates and the department's operations. This was the first occasion on which the estimates of the Department of Agriculture were dealt with by a standing committee. That committee considered these estimates on 26 different days over a period from February 17 to July 12. I am sure that is the longest period of time ever spent on the department's estimates and it indicates the seriousness of the approach taken by the committee. I and my officials appreciated the opportunity of appearing before the committee to discuss departmental affairs, and I trust that the committee members found the witnesses forthcoming and co-operative. In my opinion the reference of the estimates to the standing committee was a most useful procedure.
The standing committee in its report, which was published in Votes and Proceedings on July 13, 1966, reported that it had considered a number of the main estimates of the Department of Agriculture for 1966-67 and commended them to the house for approval. In this report the standing committee made recommendations in respect of several aspects of the department's operations. Let me assure hon. members that these are all being looked into very carefully, and progress has already made been on some of them.
The committee report referred to the principle of crop insurance and urged that its application be extended. As hon. members know, an amendment to the Crop Insurance Act was passed by the house on July 11. Since then Ontario and British Columbia have adopted insurance programs. All provinces except Quebec and Newfoundland now have crop insurance legislation and the Quebec government has given notice of its intention to introduce such legislation during the forthcoming session.
The committee recommended also that the department take more initiative in the recruitment of professional personnel. We have now strengthened our personnel organization and will, as the committee proposed, take a more initiative part in professional recruitment.
In view of the extensive evidence given to the committee by myself and my officials, as published in the minutes of that committee, I do not think it necessary at this juncture to take up the time of the committee of supply to go over those matters reported on by the committee. In the short time left to me I may go over one or two questions posed to me by hon. members.

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The hon. member lor Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot was concerned in respect of the importation of Italian tomatoes to his constituency and in the Montreal area. It is my understanding that the question of dumping of products of any kind is under the authority of the Department of National Revenue. That department watches very carefully any situations where dumping or unfair competition contrary to our law might be in effect. If such be the case, then prompt action is taken by the department. In this particular case the matter will be looked into. I shall draw it to the attention of the officials of the Department of National Revenue in case the provisions of the act are being breached in that area.
[DOT] (5:10 p.m.)
The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot also referred to the question of the income of farmers generally. The difficult part about statistics and estimates is that at times the statistics and estimates that one person gets do not seem to conform with those another person gets. I have before me the Dominion Bureau of Statistics estimates for the year 1966. They indicate that the total net income of farm operators from farming operations in Canada for 1966 is estimated at $1,995 million compared with a $1,243 million average in the years 1959-63. This might indicate that the statistics of the hon. member in this regard were certainly not the same as those available to me from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
With respect to the question of the importation of butter, the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot had statistics which I am sure inadvertently were not correct. If I understood his address correctly, he was troubled by the fact that since this government took office more butter had been imported than had previously been the case. The average importation of butter between the years 1955 and 1958 was in the amount of 14,000 pounds per year, in the years 1959 to 1963 it was 2,000 pounds per year, and in the years 1964, 1965 and 1966 to date no butter whatsoever has been imported. There again I would submit that the hon. member has obtained his statistics from the wrong place-maybe the other place; I do not know.
The hon. member was also concerned about the decrease in butter consumption and the increase in margarine consumption. In order to allay his fears in this regard I might put the statistics on the record. The per capita consumption of butter was as follows: 1957, 19.4 pounds; 1958, 18.4 pounds; 1959, 17.3 pounds; 1960, 16.2 pounds; 1961, 15.8 pounds; 
1962, 17.3 pounds; 1963, 18.6 pounds; 1964, 18.5 pounds; and 1965, 18.2 pounds. The per capita consumption of margarine in 1957 was 7.8 pounds; 1958, 8.5 pounds; 1959, 8.7 pounds; 1960, 9.4 pounds; 1961, 9.8 pounds; 1962, 9.9 pounds; 1963, 9.3 pounds; 1964, 8.9 pounds; and 1965, 8.7 pounds. So I think the hon. member's fears in this regard were unfounded in that butter seems to be holding its own and margarine increasing but slightly, with the exception of the years 1960, 1961 and 1962, when possibly because of the economic recession in those years butter consumption went down and margarine consumption went up.
The hon. member was also concerned about the effect of the 11 per cent sales tax on farmers' costs. I think other hon. members also expressed some concern in this regard. I can only say that there is no question but that this does raise farmers' costs. Farmers, if I have understood them correctly, are men who like to pay their own way, who appreciate that there is nothing for nothing in this world. I find it a little difficult to understand how it is that the very same members, who not only are in favour of expenditures made but press the government to make even higher expenditures for social welfare and other measures, want the government to cut taxes such as the sales tax.
I do not think this is responsible and that you fool neither the farmer nor anybody else in this way. If you want more social welfare measures such as old age pensions and things of this nature, which hon. members opposite have quite properly been concerned about, I fail to see how it is responsible at the same time to believe you can cut taxes and do these things. We on this side of the house believe that it is responsible to tax for expenditures. This sales tax, while it certainly has increased in some measure the cost of the farmer's purchases as well as everyone else's, is a responsible tax if the government is to fulfil its fiscal responsibilities as well as its social responsibilities.
I shoud like to refer briefly to the questions posed by the hon. member for Timiskaming. I believe he was concerned largely with the question of national marketing boards. I would point out to the hon. member a fact with which I am sure he is familiar, namely, that the decisions of the privy council, rendered I believe in 1934 or 1935, found that the federal marketing of commodities, except those concerned in intraprovincial or interprovincial trade, with ultra vires of the federal powers and that this was a provincial power.
November 25, 1966

Accordingly, any question of national marketing must be carried out in conjunction or in co-operation with the provinces. This involves the question of 11 jurisdictions working together. I do not need to tell hon. members that this is not always the easiest thing to do, although I agree with the hon. member's conclusion that the national marketing of many of our commodities would be the only effective way of achieving price stability and the reasonable certainty of a fair return to the farmer for his production.
I can assure hon. members that wherever possible we try to work in conjunction with the provincial ministers in these regards. I think we have had very fine co-operation from the provincial ministers. I believe that the advent of the National Dairy Commission, which is a national marketing agency of just the type envisaged by the hon. member, is witness to the government's efforts in this regard.


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: When is the commission going to be appointed?


John James Greene: I believe the commission will be appointed very shortly. The act is now proclaimed, as hon. members know. I think this is the first time in Canadian history that a national marketing board or federal agency of this kind, working in conjunction and cooperation with the provincial agencies, has been attempted. I trust it will be the vehicle for future commodity marketing on a national basis in the manner suggested by the hon. member.
[DOT] (5:20 p.m.)


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the minister to allow me the liberty of making a brief comment at this time. I was engaged at another meeting earlier. If I can be permitted a few minutes to make some comments the minister might refer to them in the course of his reply.


John James Greene: Certainly.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
appreciate the minister's acquiescence in letting me speak now.
I wish to refer to a matter referred to earlier by the hon. member for Medicine Hat, namely, the problem regarding the shortage of cattle cars on the railways. This is an acute problem at the present time and, as the hon. member also pointed out, it affects the prices received by buyers at the cattle sales. In the bi-monthly sales at Kamloops large quantities of beef cattle go through that point at this
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time of the year, and I have been told of acute shortages of cars and the effect of this on prices. I have taken up this matter directly with the railway companies and I am glad to say that they have made strenuous and at least partially successful efforts to improve the situation. The delivery of cars has been increased but the problem is by no means solved.
The railways explained to me that the problem is that there is a tendency at present for normal shipments of cattle to be made by trucks so that the railways do not need as many cattle cars in steady operation as they used to in the past. In the fall, during the heavy marketing season, there is a very concentrated demand and they are faced with the problem of a physical shortage of cars owing to the necessity for rapid movement and rapid turnover. This is the reason for the shortage.
I mention this in brief outline because I should like to advance the idea that the minister discuss this problem with the railway companies. Apparently it recurs every year and I think it would be helpful indeed if it could be discussed between the department and the railway companies to see what longterm solution could be worked out.
I advance this suggestion not only with respect to the normal sales which take place every year but because of the prospect of very substantial commercial exports of cattle such as took place last year. There may well be a repetition and an increase in volume of cattle exported, so that the provision of cattle cars may be a matter of national and growing concern in the years to come. For these reasons I would like the minister to accept the suggestion that this problem be discussed with the railways as a matter of great concern to his department and to the whole nation.


John James Greene: I would be very pleased to take the suggestion of the hon. member and consider the proposal he made. As hon. members know I have had occasion in the past to have charming and delightful interviews with the railway officials. I will be very glad to meet those delightful gentlemen again to see what can be done in this particular area.
I will also be pleased to consider the suggestion of the hon. member for Medicine Hat with respect to the cleaning of these cars, which is a problem with which I was not familiar until he drew it to our attention. I will also be pleased to take that into consideration.

November 25, 1966
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In view of the shortage of time I will not go over in detail the points drawn to my attention by hon. members but I will undertake to consider very carefully the problems pointed out by the hon. members for Medicine Hat, New Westminster, Rosetown-Biggar, Rosth-ern, Humboldt-Melfort-Tisdale, and Dauphin, who I believe brought some very salient and important points to my attention, as well as the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River on this side of the house.
I would like to point out something with respect to one or two points which were brought forth by many hon. members and in particular the question of the present wheat price. It is my understanding that by early October, 1966, earlier this year, the Canadian Wheat Board asking price was $2.11 per bushel on the basis of No. 1 Northern at Fort William-Port Arthur. This is only seven cents below the international world agreement maximum price, while the Vancouver price was within three cents of the maximum price. I think at this time there has certainly been a very considerable improvement in wheat prices, at which I am sure we can all rejoice.
With respect to the question of the initial payments referred to by the hon. member for Rosthern, I know he was anxious to give me all the credit he could in his native province but I am afraid I cannot fully accept the accolade which he has given me because I have not announced any increase in the initial payment. Of course this is not my responsibility but that of the Department of Trade and Commerce. I said that the question of the increase in the initial payment is under active consideration and that if any such announcement is to be made it will be made in due course by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
With regard to the position of world wheat prices, much as I would like to have the authority which was imputed to me by the hon. member for Rosthern, I do not yet have the authority to set world wheat prices. However, I believe this is under active negotiation at GATT between the buyer and seller groups, and again it is my hope that an improved position in the I.W.A. prices will be possible in the not too distant future.
Some concern was expressed with respect to the effectiveness of the dairy payments. In this regard I must thank all hon. members for their patience and understanding. I know that in a program as a large as this one, where some 265,000 farmers are receiving payments either monthly or every three months, there

have been individual difficulties. Any of them which have been drawn to my attention by hon. members were immediately looked after to the best of my ability and that of my officials. I know that hon. members have received considerable correspondence from their constituents and this has added to their burden. I am happy to instruct them that as of today 80,000 more cheques went out to the farmers and that the total now paid to our Canadian farmers under this government's dairy support program in the current year since May 1 totals some $50 million. I believe that with the improvements we have announced-


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. I apologize for interrupting the minister but it being 5.30 p.m. it is my duty, pursuant to the provisions of the special order made on November 22, 1966 to interrupt these proceedings and forthwith put, without amendment or debate, every question necessary to dispose of the main and supplementary estimates now before the committee of supply. Accordingly, the Chair proposes to continue with the department now being considered and proceed in alphabetical order through those departments which remain before the committee of supply. Shall Item 1 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. Departmental administration, $35,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item la carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Research-
5. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international society for horticultural science, an amount of $450,000 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities and other scientific organizations in Canada and the costs of publishing departmental research papers as supplements to the "Canadian Entomologist", $27,973,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 5 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $5,387,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 10 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

Production and marketing-
Administration-
15. Administration, operation and maintenance including the administration of the Agricultural Stabilization Act, and contributions to assist in the marketing of agricultural products subject to the approval of treasury board, $2,506,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 15 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15a. Administration, operation and maintenance, $22,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 15a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
17a. Grants, contributions and subsidies in the amounts and subject to the terms specified in the subvote titles listed in the details of estimates, $1,813,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 17a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Animal and animal products-
20. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international dairy federation, $6,772,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall Item 20 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20a. Administration, operation and maintenance, $130,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 20a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Grants, contributions and subsidies in the amounts and subject to the terms specified in the sub-vote titles listed in the details of estimates, $12,882,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 25 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25a. Grants, contributions and subsidies in the amounts and subject to the terms specified in the sub-vote titles listed in the details of estimates, $300,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 25a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Agriculture
Plant and plant products-
30. Administration, operation and maintenance, $6,562,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 30 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
30a. Administration, operation and maintenance, $439,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 30a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35. Grants, contributions and subsidies as detailed in the estimates, $8,148,900.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35a. Grants, contributions and subsidies as detailed in the estimates, $5,413,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35c. Grants, contributions and subsidies as detailed in the estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[DOT] (5:30 p.m.)
Health of animals-[DOT]
40. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the office international des Epizooties, and authority, notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act, to spend revenue received during the year from packers requiring special services, $13,446,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40c. Administration, operation and maintenance, $365,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 40c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
45. Grants, contributions and subsidies as detailed in the estimates, $1,032,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 45 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10400	COMMONS
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration 45a. Grants, contributions and subsidies as detailed in the estimates, $16,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 45a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Board of grain commissioners-
50. Administration, operation and maintenance including authority to purchase screenings, $8,302,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 50 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Land rehabilitation, irrigation and water storage projects-
Irrigation and water storage projects in the western provinces including the south Saskatchewan river project, the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act program, land protection, reclamation and development-
55. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international commission on irrigation and drainage, $9,508,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 55 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
60. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $19,761,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 60 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
60a. Irrigation and water storage projects in the western provinces including the South Saskatchewan river project, the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act program, land protection, reclamation and development-construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $3,200,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 60a carry?
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: That completes the estimates of the Department of Agriculture. The committee will now proceed to the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.



DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
General administrationla. General administration including the promotion of a program for the employment of the older worker-to extend the purposes of citizenship and
[The Chairman.]
DEBATES	November 25. 196G
immigration Vote 1 of the main estimates for 196667 to include $50,000 for grants for manpower research and to provide a further amount of $815,300.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item la carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
General administration-
6c. Payments in accordance with terms and conditions approved by the Governor in Council to provinces and in respect of Indian bands under the Municipal Winter Works Incentive Program during the 1966-67 and 1967-68 fiscal years of amounts not exceeding fifty per cent of the cost of labour incurred in the period from November 1, 1966 to such day or days in the fiscal year 1967-1968 as may be determined by the Governor in Council, and in the case of projects in designated areas within the means of the Department of Industry Act and in areas determined by the Minister of Manpower and Immigration to be areas of high water unemployment, sixty per cent of such cost; and to authorize payments in those fiscal years to provinces in respect of previous municipal winter works incentive program, $50,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 6c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Technical and vocational training assistance-
15a. Payments to the provinces to carry out the purposes of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act and agreements made thereunder- to extend the purposes of citizenship and immigration vote 15 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to provide for payments to the provinces to carry out the purposes of the Training Allowance Act, 1966 and agreements made thereunder, to authorize the minister in accordance with agreements approved by the governor in council between the minister and any province, agency or person to make payments up to 100 per cent of the cost of carrying on research in connection with the utilization of manpower resources in Canada, including the development of experimental training methods and techniques, the payment of training allowances and related activities, and to provide that the contributions payable by Canada to a province pursuant to any agreement that may be entered into under section 4 of the Technical and Vocational Training Assistance Act shall, notwithstanding paragraph (b) of subseotion (2) of section 4 of that act, include an amount equal to 25 per cent of the capital expenditures incurred by the province on training facilities before such date, not later than March 31, 1970, as may be specified in the said agreement and to provide a further amount of, $37,750,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item. 15a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

Immigration-
32c. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,830,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 32c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Citizenship-
35a. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants and contributions for language instruction and citizenship promotion, $50,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: That completes the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. The committee will now proceed to the remaining items of the Department of Defence Production.



DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
5a. Payments, subject to the approval of the Treasury Board, for certain programs carried out under the Defence Production Act, (a) to assist defence contractors with defence plant modernization, and in connection with the establishment of production capacity and qualified sources for production of component parts and materials; and (b) for capital assistance for the construction, acquisition, extension or improvement of capital equipment or works by private contractors engaged in defence contracts, by Crown plants operated on a management-fee basis on by Crown companies under the direction of the Minister of Defence Production, $3,400,000.
['This completes consideration of the main and supplementary estimates which are before the committee of supply.\nMr. Sharp moves that I do now rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.\nMotion (Mr. Sharp) agreed to: Yeas, 62; nays, 20.\nResolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.\nWays and Means\n(6:10 p.m.)']
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 5a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
B-Emergency measures organization-
20a. Administration and operation. $400,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 20a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: That completes the estimates of the Department of Defence Production. The Department of External Affairs is next.



[Stage Direction]
A-Department-*
1. Administration, operation and maintenance including payment of remuneration, subject to the
23033-658j
Supply-External Affairs
approval of the Governor in Council and notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, in connection with the assignment by the Canadian Government of Canadians to the staffs of the International Organizations detailed in the estimates, and authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts of the shares of those organizations of such expenses, and authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, for the appointment and fixing of salaries of commissioners (International Commissions for supervision and control in Indo-China), secretaries and staff by the Governor in Council; assistance and repatriation of distressed Canadian citizens and persons of Canadian domicile abroad, including their dependents; payment to the Roosevelt Campobello International Park Commission for the purposes and subject to the provisions of the act respecting the commission established to administer the Roosevelt Campobello International Park; a cultural relations and academic exchange program with the French community; payment to the Gut Dam International Arbitral Tribunal, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $15,403,400.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 1 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.	>
Item agreed to on division.
la. Administration, operation and maintenance- to extend the purposes of external affairs vote 1 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to include expenses related to the Canada-West Indies prime ministerial conference, cultural relations and academic exchange programs with other countries, the grants detailed in these estimates and to provide a further amount of, $351,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item la carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division. ,.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Representation abroad-operational-including authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, for the appointment and fixing of salaries of high commissioners, ambassadors, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries and staff by the Governor in Council, $19,131,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 5 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. Representation abroad-construction, acquisition or improvement of buildings, works, land, equipment and furnishings, $3,095,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 10 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15. Assessments, contributions and other payments to international (including commonwealth) organizations and international multilateral economic and special aid programs as detailed in the estimates, including authority to make payments in
November 25, 1966

Supply-External Affairs the amounts and in the currencies in which they are levied, notwithstanding that the total of such payments may exceed the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of December, 1965, which is, $26,993,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 15 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15a. Assessments, contributions and other payments to International (including commonwealth) organizations and international multilateral economic and special aid programs as detailed in the estimates, including authority to make payments in the amounts and in the currencies in which they are levied, notwithstanding that the total of such payments may exceed the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of May, 1966, which is, $6,245,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 15a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15c. Assessments, contributions and other payments to international organizations and international multilateral economic and special aid programs as detailed in the estimates, $100,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 15c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
External aid office-
30. Salaries and expenses, $1,660,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 30 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35. Economic, technical, educational and other assistance as detailed in the estimates including authority to credit the amount of the sub-vote for international development assistance to the special account in the consolidated revenue fund established by External Affairs Vote 33d of Appropriation Act No. 2, 1965, $84,100,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35a. Economic, technical, educational and other assistance as detailed in the estimates, $45,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 35a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.	4
[The Chairman.]

36a. To forgive payment by India to Canada of the total principal and interest accruing thereon under agreements related to purchase of Canadian wheat and flour between Canada and India dated February 20, 1958, October 22, 1958 and March 29, 1966, the principal amount being, $9,428,572.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 36a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Salaries and expenses of the commission and Canada's share of the expenses of studies, surveys and investigations of the commission, $392,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 40 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L20. Additional advance to the working capital fund of the World Health Organization in an amount of $27,180 U.S., notwithstanding that payment may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of December, 1965, which is, $29,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item L20 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L2la. To increase to $2,000,000 the amount that may be charged at any time to the special account mentioned in Vote L13a of the Appropriation Act No. 6, 1964 that was established for the purpose of financing posts abroad, advances to personnel on posting and for medical expenses; additional amount required, $500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item L21a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L22a. Loans to the Government of India to finance the purchase in Canada of aircraft and associated spare parts and equipment in accordance with a financial agrement entered into between the Government of Canada and the Government of India, $217,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item L22a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L23b. To authorize in the current and subsequent fiscal years the purchase of 2,500 shares of stock of the Asian Development Bank, being Canada's subscription as a member thereof, for the amount of $25,000,000 U.S., including authority in the current and subsequent fiscal years for the issue to the bank, on behalf of the government of Canada, as payment for the shares so purchased, pending cash requirements by the bank, non-interest bearing non-negotiable demand notes in such form as may be determined by the Minister of Finance,
November 25, 1966

notwithstanding that the payment may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of June, 1966, which is, $27,027,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item L23b carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
External aid office-
L25. Special loan assistance for developing countries in the current and subsequent fiscal years, subject to such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve, for the purpose of undertaking such economic, educational and technical projects as may be agreed upon by Canada and the developing countries or recognized international development institutions, $50,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item L25 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: That completes the estimates of the Department of External Affairs. The committee will now proceed to the Department of Finance.
DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE Administration-
1. Departmental administration including administration of the Guaranteed Loans Acts and the inspector general of banks' office, and payments to provinces and grants as detailed in the estimates, $4,332,900.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 1 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Administrationla. Departmental administration including administration of the Guaranteed Loans Acts and payments to provinces as detailed in the estimates, $99,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item la carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Administration-
2c. Grant to the city of Ottawa toward the cost of the civic centre, the government of Canada's share not to exceed $1,000,000; amount required for the current fiscal year, $600,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 2c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Finance
3a. Grant to the endowment fund of the Vanier institute of the family-L'institut Vanier de la famille, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 3a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
4a. Contributions to the government of Manitoba for assistance in meeting costs relating to the flooding of the Red River in 1966 in accordance with cost-sharing arrangements to be determined by Canada in consultation with Manitoba, $10,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 4a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Subsidies and other payments to provinces-
5. Payments, computed in accordance with terms and conditions approved by the Governor in Council, to the government of each province, in respect of income tax paid by corporations whose main business is the distribution to or generation for distribution to the public of electrical energy, gas or steam; the said payments to be made in respect of such part of the income of the corporations for the taxation year ending in the calendar year 1964 (as determined under and for the purposes of the Income Tax Act) as is derived from the said distribution or generation in the province to which payment is made and in respect of similar income of such corporations for any taxation year ending in a calendar year prior to 1964 that was not taken into account in computing payments made in respect of that taxation year, $7,300,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 5 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Municipal grants-
10. Grants to municipalities in accordance with the Municipal Grants Act and regulations made thereunder, and grants to municipalities in lieu of redevelopment charges in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, $38,300,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 10 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Government administration-
15. Contingencies-to supplement other votes and to provide for miscellaneous minor and unforeseen expenses not otherwise provided for including awards under the Public Servants Inventions Act, subject to the approval of the Treasury Board, and authority to re-use any sums repaid to this appropriation from other appropriations, $15,000,000.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, would you please call a vote on this item.
Motion agreed to; Yeas, 61; nays, 32.

November 25. 1966
Supply-Finance


Edmund Davie Fulton: I was paired. Had I voted, I would have voted against the item.


Mr. Pennell:: I was paired. Had I voted, I would have voted for the item.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Item 15 is agreed to. Item 15a?
Government administration-
15a. Contingencies-to supplement other votes and to provide for miscellaneous minor and unforeseen expenses not otherwise provided for including awards under the Public Servants Inventions Act, subject to the approval of the Treasury Board, and authority to re-use any sums repaid to this appropriation from other appropriations, $45,000,000.


Gordon Minto Churchill: May we have a vote please, Mr. Chairman.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 62; nays, 30.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I declare the resolution carried. Shall item 15c carry?
15c. Contingencies-to supplement other votes and to provide for miscellaneous minor and unforeseen expenses not otherwise provided for including awards under the Public Service Inventions Act, subject to the approval of the Treasury Board, and authority to re-use any sums repaid to this appropriation from other appropriations, $50,000,000.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Call a vote on this, please.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 61; nays, 30.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I declare vote 15c carried.


Mr. Lachance:: Mr. Chairman, I did not vote when the last resolution was moved because I want the electors in my riding to know for what stupid reason we are acting now.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I rise on a point of order. A remark like that should be stricken from the record or debate should be permitted for the rest of the house.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I think the point of order raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre is in order. The hon. member should not have made such a remark in the committee.
17. Government's contribution as an employer under the Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan in respect of persons employed in the public service whose remuneration is payable out of the consolidated revenue fund, $14,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 17 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[Mr. Churchill.!
ISa. To deem the expression "regulations made under the authority of paragraph (ad) of subsection (1) of section 30 of the Public Service Superannuation Act" in vote 686 of the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1061 to include regulations made under the Financial Administration Act, $1.00.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 18a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20. Government's share of surgical-medical insurance premiums and government's contributions to pension plans and death benefit plans for employees engaged locally outside Canada who are excluded from the Public Service Superannuation Act, to the unemployment insurance fund in respect of government employees paid through the central pay office and to the hospital insurance (outside Canada) plan, $11,575,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 20 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20a. Government's share of surgical-medical insurance premiums-to extend the purposes of finance vote 20 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to authorize in the current and subsequent fiscal years, on such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may prescribe, advances to or in respect of employees who belong to a class of persons described in vote 124 of Appropriation Act No. 6, 1960, as amended, and who are absent from their duties on sick leave without pay for the purpose of enabling such persons to pay surgical-medical insurance premiums when due, and to provide a further amount of, $3,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 20a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20c. Government's share of surgical-medical insurance premiums-to extend the purposes of Finance vote 20 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to provide for the government's share of surgical-medical insurance premiums, determined on such basis and paid in respect of such persons (and their dependents) as the Governor in Council prescribes, who are members of the forces or members of the civilian component, serving in Canada, of states that are parties to the North Atlantic Treaty Status of Forces agreement, 1949, and to provide a further amount of, $150,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 20c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
22a. To authorize the Minister of Finance to establish a special account in the Consolidated Revenue Fund to be known as the "foreign claims fund" to which shall be credited, (a) notwithstanding vote 696 of Appropriation Act No. 4, 1952, such part of the money received by him from the custodian of enemy property under paragraph (a) of that vote,
November 25, 1966

the proceeds of sale of property under paragraph (b) of that vote and the earnings of property specified in paragraph (b) thereof, as the Governor in Council directs, and (b) all amounts received from governments of other countries pursuant to agreements entered into after April 1, 1966 relating to the settlement of Canadian claims, and, notwithstanding section 35 of the Financial Administration Act, to provide for payments out of the Foreign Claims Fund in the current and subsequent fiscal years in accordance with regulations of the Governor in Council which regulations may, inter alia, provide for the determination of the nature of claims for compensation that may be made, the persons to whom compensation may be paid, and the manner and time for the submission of claims, the calculation (including any weighted or pro rata distribution) of the amount of the payments by the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and to authorize payment of the expenses incurred in investigating and reporting on such claims, $1,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 22a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
23a. To authorize, notwithstanding the Currency, Mint and Exchange Fund Act, the transfer from the exchange fund account to the consolidated revenue fund of the profit for the calendar year 1964 and each subsequent calendar year from trading operations in foreign exchange, gold and securities, and from the net valuation adjustments on unmatched purchases or sales during each such year, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item 23a carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[DOT] (5:40 p.m.)
Comptroller of the treasury-
25. Administration, including the administration of the Superannuation and Retirement Acts and recoverable expenditures on behalf of the Canada Pension Plan, $25,505,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Tariff board-
30. Administration, $322,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Royal Canadian Mint-
35. Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,244,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Finance
35a. Administration, operation and maintenance, $434,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Construction or acquisition of equipment,


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Construction or acquisition of equipment, $115,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Municipal development and loan board-
45. Administration, $153,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Loans, investments and advances-
L30. To provide for the purchase, acquisition, and holding by the Minister of Finance of securities issued by the Canadian Corporation for the 1967 World Exhibition pursuant to sub-section 1 of section 12 of the Canadian Corporation for the 1967 World Exhibition Act and to subsequently dispose thereof, $110,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L31a. Special accountable advances to or in respect of persons employed in the public service whose remuneration is payable out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund who are required to make contributions under (a) the Public Service Superannuation Act or the Diplomatic Service (Special) Superannuation Act, and (b) the Canada Pension Plan or the Quebec Pension Plan in the amounts by which the combined contributions required from such persons in respect of remuneration to which an act referred to in paragraph (a) and an act referred to in paragraph (b) both apply exceed 61 per cent of such remuneration in the case of males and 5 per cent of such remuneration in the case of females, $4,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Forestry and Rural Development
L32b. To provide in the current and subsequent fiscal years for the purchase, acquisition, holding and disposition by the Minister of Finance of securities issued by the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the total cost of such securities that may be held by the Minister at any one time not to exceed, $150,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Auditor Generals Office-
1. Salaries and expenses of office, $1,804,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Insurance-
1. Departmental administration, $992,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Finance.


[Stage Direction]
Forestry-
23a. Contributions to the provinces in the amounts and subject to the terms specified in the details of estimates, $750,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Rural Development-
30a. Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act program and Maritime Marshland Rehabilitation Act program-construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $200,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10c. Freight assistance on western feed grains including assistance in respect of grain storage costs in accordance with the terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, $2,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[The Chairman.]
November 25, 1966
16c. To ratify and confirm the payment of grants in aid of forestry research in the amount of $3,490 during the 1965-66 fiscal year, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Forestry and Rural Development.


[Stage Direction]
1. Administration including the office of the superintendent of bankruptcy, grants and contributions as detailed in the estimates, gratuities to the widows or such dependents as may be approved by treasury board of judges who die while in office and authority to make recoverable advances for the administration of justice on behalf of the governments of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, $2,719,950.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. Administration including grants as detailed in the estimates, $31,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Combines Investigation	Act-administration
(control and supervision vested in the President of the Privy Council), $903,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Justice.


[Stage Direction]
lc. General administration-to extend the purposes of Labour Vote 1 of the main estimates, 1966-67 to authorize payment during the current and subsequent fiscal years of all the actual and reasonable travelling and living expenses incurred by each member of a conciliation board in connection with the work of the board notwithstanding section 64(2) of the Industrial Relations and Disputes Investigation Act and to provide a further amount of $135,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Labour.

November 25, 1966
LEGISLATION House of Commons-
15c. Expenses of the Canada-United States Interparliamentary Group, of delegates attending other inter-parliamentary conferences, expenses connected with visits of delegates to and from other legislatures including the expenses of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference to be held in Ottawa in 1966, Canada's share of the expenses of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association including the assessment for membership in the association, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $112,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20a. General administration, $117,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20c. General administration, $990,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of Legislation.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS INCLUDING ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES A-Department

Administration Services-
1. Departmental administration including the administration of the Explosives Act, Canada's fee for membership in the Pan-American Institute of Geography and History and a grant of $10,000 to the Mining Association of British Columbia, $3,217,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Ia. Departmental administration, $29,000. The Chairman: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division. Item agreed to on division.
5. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including common-use field survey equipment, $513,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10407
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
10. Contributions to the provinces, pursuant to agreements entered into with the approval of the governor in council by Canada with the provinces, to assist in the development of roads leading to resources, $4,527,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15. Subventions in respect to eastern coal under agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15c. Subventions in respect to eastern coal under agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Province Power Development Act, $950,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Field and air surveys, mapping and aeronautical
charting-
20. Administration, operation and maintenance including purchases of air photography, the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, the expenses of the national advisory committee on control surveys and mapping, authority to make recoverable advances not exceeding the amount of the share of the United States government of the cost of binding annual reports and maintaining boundary range lights, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $8,589,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Marine surveys and research-
25. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau, $9,181,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
30. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $7,243,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Geological research-
35. Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in geological sciences, Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British Commonwealth Scientific Conference, London, England, Canada's fee for membership in the international union of geological sciences and $150,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $6,927,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,198,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $246,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Mining and metallurgical investigations and
research-
45. Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in mining and mineral processing, Canada's share of the cost of the commonwealth committee on mineral processing and $100,000 for grants in aid of mining and mineral processing research in Canadian universities, $5,640,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
50. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $578,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Geographical surveys and research-
55. Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the Canadian permanent committee on geographical names, the national advisory committee on geographical research and the national committee for Canada of the International Geographical Union, Canada's fee for membership in the International Geographical Union, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $962,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
November 25, 1966
Research in astronomy and geophysics-
60. Administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of the national committee for Canada of the international astronomical union, Canada's fee for membership in the international astronomical union, and grants and contributions as detailed in the estimates, $2,638,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
65. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,345,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Research in astronomy and geophysics-
65a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,255,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
70. Administration, operation and maintenance including Canada's share of the expenses of the international executive council, world power conference, authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the shares of the province of Manitoba and of the province of Ontario of the cost of regulating the levels of Lake of the Woods and Lac Seul and the amount of the shares of provincial and outside agencies of the cost of hydrometric surveys, and $50,000 for grants to universities for hydrologic research, $5,609,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
70a. Administration, operation and maintenance- To extend the purposes of Mines and Technical Surveys Vote 70 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to include the expenses of the Saskatchewan-Nelson Basin Board and the Atlantic Tidal Power Programming Board as specified in the sub-vote titles in these estimates and to provide a further amount of, $600,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
75. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the shares of provincial and outside agencies of the cost of hydrometric surveys, $1,106,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.

Item agreed to on division.	Item agreed to on division.
[The Chairman.]
November 25. 1966
75a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $256,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
SO. Contributions to the provinces toward the construction of dams and other works to assist in the conservation and control of water resources in accordance with agreements entered into between Canada and the provinces, $10,715,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
General-
85. Polar continental shelf project, $1,696,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
B-Dominion coal board
100. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $185,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
105c. Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council-to extend the authority granted by Mines and Technical Surveys Vote 75B, Appropriation Act No. 10, 1964, as amended by Mines and Technical Surveys Vote 75D, Appropriation Act No. 2, 1966, to increase to $33,146,225 the amount that may be spent pursuant thereto in the current fiscal year; additional amount required for 1966-67, $10,819,725.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
National Energy Board-
110. Administration, $1,133,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May we have a vote on this National Energy Board item?
Motion agreed to; Yeas, 67; nays, 30.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I declare vote No. 110 carried.
L40. Advances in accordance with agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $17,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
23033-659 J
Supply

Mines and Technical Surveys
L40a. Advances in accordance with agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $11,600,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L40c. Advances in accordance with agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $7,626,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Atomic energy-
Atomic energy control board-
1.	Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $215,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Grants for researches and investigation with respect to atomic energy, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-
(research program) -
10. Current operation and maintenance, including expendable research equipment, $46,695,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment and to authorize Centra] Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of works near the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $10,292,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L5. Advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in such amounts and on such terms and conditions (including the delivery to Her Majesty, in satisfaction of the advances, of obligations or shares of the company) as the Governor in Council may approve, to finance the construction of the Douglas Point generating station; to share in the construction of the Pickering generating station under agreement between the federal government, the province of Ontario and the Hydro Electric Power Commission

November 25, 1966

Supply-National Defence of Ontario: to finance the construction of an engineering design office at Sheridan Park; to finance the construction of housing and other works near the Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment; and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of the said housing and other works near the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $24,625,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L7a. Advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, subject to such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve, to finance the construction of transmission lines in connection with the Nelson river power project, to be undertaken in accordance with an agreement between Canada and Manitoba to be approved by the Governor in Council: to authorize Atomic Energy of Canada Limited to construct, control, lease and dispose of the said transmission lines, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys including Energy, Mines and Resources.


[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, including grants to military associations, institutes and other organizations as detailed in the estimates and authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, and subject to allotment by the treasury board, for total commitments of $2,632,006,370 for the purposes of Votes 1, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 and 45 of this department regardless of the year in which such commitments will come in course of payment (of which it is estimated that $1,106,752,370 will come due for payment in future years) and authority to make recoverable advances under any of the said votes and, notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act, to spend revenue received during the year from the sale to military personnel of clothing and kit items and revenue received in respect of assistance rendered to the United Nations, any party of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or any provincial or municipal government, $5,640,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 73; nays, 28.


Herman Maxwell Batten: I declare vote No. 1 of the Department of National Defence carried.
[The Chairman.]
[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)
Defences services-
15. Operation and maintenance and construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and major equipment and development for the Canadian forces and $1,750,000 for grants to the town of Oromocto, $1,420,115,000.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Please call a vote, Mr. Chairman.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 74; nays, 24.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order, please. I declare Vote No. 15 of the Department of National Defence carried.
15c. Operation and maintenance and construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and major equipment and development for the Canadian forces-to extend the purposes of national defence vote 15 of the Main Estimates, 1966-67 to authorize, notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act, the spending of revenue received during the year, subject to the direction of treasury board, in respect of charges made pursuant to regulations under the National Defence Act for the provision of (a) accommodation and food to members of the Canadian Forces, (b) food to messes and institutes of the Canadian forces, and (c) medical and dental care to dependents of members of the Canadian forces, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Defence research-
Defence research board-
20. Operation and maintenance, $30,526,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $4,828,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
30. To foster defence research in Canadian industry by supporting selected defence applied research programs, on terms and conditions approved by the treasury board, $5,800,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35. Research satellite program-to provide for the design and instrumentation of a series of satellites to carry out a scientific research program agreed
November 25, 1966
upon jointly by the United States national aeronautical and space administration and the defence research board, $3,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Mutual aid-
45. Contributions to infrastructure and the military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the transfer of defence equipment and supplies and the provision of services and facilities for defence purposes in accordance with section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act, 1950, not exceeding a total of $30,316,000 including the present value of defence equipment or supplies or the cost of services made available by the Canadian forces estimated in the amount of $9,316,000 and provided by appropriations for those forces in the current and former years in respect of which, notwithstanding subsection (3) of section 3 of the said act, no amount shall be charged to this appropriation or paid into a special account; provided by this vote, $21,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
General-
48. To authorize, notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act and section 11 of the Surplus Crown Assets Act, the payment into the special account in the consolidated revenue fund referred to in national defence vote 48 of the main estimates for 1965-66 of revenues received during the current and subsequent fiscal years from the sale during the current fiscal year of surplus buildings, works and land not exceeding an aggregate amount of $5,000,000, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Pensions and other benefits-
50. Civil pensions as detailed in the estimates and to authorize in respect of members of the Royal Canadian Air Force on leave without pay and serving as instructors with civilian training organizations operating under the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan who were killed, payments to their dependents of amounts equal to the amounts such dependents would have received under the Pension Act, as amended, had such service as instructors been military service in the armed forces of Canada, less the value of any benefits received by such dependents under insurance contracts which were effected on the lives of such members of the Royal Canadian Air Force by or at the expense of the civilian organization, $7,226.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-National Health and Welfare
Defence Construction (1951) Limited-
55. Expenses incurred by Defence Construction (1951) Limited in procuring the construction and maintenance of defence projects on behalf of the Department of National Defence and procuring the construction of such other projects as are approved by treasury board, $2,250,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L45. To authorize in the current and subsequent fiscal years, under such terms and conditions as the governor in council prescribes, a capital assistance loan to the town of Oromocto, New Brunswick, to be covered by town debentures, for the purpose of assisting in completion of the physical development of municipal works and the further development of the town's assets, $200,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of National Defence. The Department of National Health and Welfare, Vote No. 1.


[Stage Direction]
Administration-
1. Departmental administration including recoverable expenditures on behalf of the Canada Pension Plan, $2,495,800.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Health services-
5. Administration, operation and maintenance, including grants as detailed in the estimates and authority, notwithstanding the Financial Administration Act, to spend revenue received during the year for prosthetic services, $9,309,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. To authorize general health grants to the provinces, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory upon the terms and in the amounts detailed in the estimates and under terms and conditions approved by the governor in council including authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current year not to exceed a total amount of $40,407,080, $32,794,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

10412	COMMONS
Supply-National Health and Welfare
15. To authorize hospital construction grants to the provinces, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory upon the terms and in the amounts detailed in the estimates and under terms and conditions approved by the governor in council including authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current year not to exceed a total amount of $26,959,631, $20,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
27a. To establish a special account in the Consolidated Revenue Fund to be known as the "Hospital Insurance Supplementary Fund" to which shall be credited such amounts as may be contributed during the current and subsequent fiscal years by Canada and the provinces, the contribution by Canada for any fiscal year not to exceed the total contribution by all the provinces for such year, and to authorize, notwithstanding section 35 of the Financial Administration Act, payments out of the fund in the current and subsequent fiscal years in respect of the cost of insured services, within the meaning of the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act, incurred by a person who, through no fault of his own, ceased to be eligible for and entitled to insured services under that act; amount required for the fiscal year 1966-67, $20,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Medical services-
20. Administration, operation and maintenance, including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the total of all amounts to be paid by the governments of the provinces and territories under agreements to be entered on terms approved by the governor in council with such governments in respect of health assistance to persons residing on Indian reserves other than Indians and to residents of the territories other than Indians and Eskimos, $33,290,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including payments to hospitals and other institutions which care for Indians and Eskimos as contributions toward the construction of hospitals and related facilities, $3,450,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[The Chairman.]
DEBATES	November 25, 1966
Food and drug services-
30. Administration, operation and maintenance, $5,782,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35. Construction or acquisition of equipment, $370,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Welfare services-
40.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including recoverable expenditures on behalf of the Canada Pension Plan, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $5,503,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Administration, operation and maintenance, including recoverable expenditures on behalf of the Canada Pension Plan, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $15,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40c. Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,348,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
41.	Family assistance, under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the treasury board, in respect of children of immigrants and settlers, $3,550,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
41a. Family assistance, under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the treasury board, in respect of children of immigrants and settlers. $753,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966	COMMONS DEBATES
45. National welfare grants-to authorize, on terms and conditions approved by the governor in council, national welfare grants to provinces and welfare agencies including schools of social work, and to individuals in the form of scholarships and fellowships, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: That completes the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE Customs and Excisela. General administration, operation, and maintenance, $1,122,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?
Supply-Northern Affairs
3a. Administration, operation and maintenance, $355,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
7a. Northern mineral assistance grants-To authorize in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, northern mineral development assistance grants to individuals and corporations, in order to assist in the mineral and economic development of the Canadian north, and to authorize total commitments in respect of development assistance grants in the current and subsequent fiscal years not exceeding $9,000,000: estimated amount required in the current fiscal year, $3,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Taxation-
5c. General administration and district offices including recoverable expenditures on behalf of the Canada Pension Plan, $372,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of National Revenue. The committee will now proceed to the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and Indian Affairs and Northern Development, vote No. 1.
DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES Administration-
2.	Departmental administration, including grants as detailed in the estimates, $2,196,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Resource development-
3.	Administration, operation and maintenance Including a contribution to the Canadian council of resource ministers in an amount equal to one-third the aggregate contribution of the provinces but not exceeding $84,000, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $1,056,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Item agreed to on division.
Natural and historic resources-
15. Administration, operation and maintenance including wildlife resources conservation and development, administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act and payments to land owners who maintain migratory bird habitat in accordance with agreements entered into on terms and conditions approved by the Governor in Council, payment to national battlefields commission for the purposes and subject to the provisions of an act respecting the national battlefields at Quebec, grants as detailed in the estimates and authority to make expenditures on the proposed new national park in the area of Kejimkujik Lake in Nova Scotia, $15,587,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including authority to make expenditures on the proposed new national park in the area of Kejimkujik Lake in Nova Scotia and. in respect of national parks and historic sites and monuments, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to make commitments for the current fiscal year not to exceed a total amount of $17,170,700, $16,055,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20c. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,746,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

Supply-Northern Affairs
Indian Affairs-
30a. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as specified in the sub-vote titles in the estimates-To extend the purposes of Northern Affairs and National Resources Vote 30 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to authorize special payments in respect of social assistance to persons other than Indians residing on Indian Reserves and to authorize special payments in respect of the education in Indian schools of children other than Indian children and to provide a further amount of, $702,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35 c. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Northern Administration-
45. Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the advisory commission on the development of government in the Northwest Territories, grants and contributions as detailed in the estimates, authority to make recoverable advances for services performed on behalf of the governments of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, authority to sell electric power and fuel oil (and to provide services in respect thereof), in accordance with terms and conditions approved by the Governor in Council, to private consumers in remote locations where alternative local sources of supply are not available, and to authorize the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources to provide in respect of eskimo commercial activities for the instruction and supervision of eskimos, the furnishing of materials, the purchase of finished goods and, notwithstanding any other act, the sale of such finished goods, and to make payments to eskimos under social assistance, welfare housing and child welfare programs, $27,757,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
45a. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants and contributions as detailed in the estimates, $115,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
50. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the share of the government of the Northwest Territories of expenditures on education and vocational training, authority to make recoverable advances in respect of
[The Chairman.]
services provided and work performed on other than federal property when only the department is capable of performing such service or work, authority for a program of construction or acquisition of housing for eskimos and the sale of houses to eskimos on such terms and conditions and at such prices as the Governor in Council may approve including the sale to eskimos at a price $1,000 less than the cost for one-room and one-bedroom houses and $2,000 less than the cost for larger houses, authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current fiscal year not to exceed, for education division, a total amount of $5,867,600, for welfare and industrial divisions, a total amount of $3,377,800, for the Yukon Territory, a total amount of $5,561,000 and for Northwest Territories and other field services, a total amount of $9,242,900, $18,746,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Loans, Investments and Advances-
L49c. To authorize the establishment of a special account in the consolidated revenue fund from which may be advanced in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with regulations approved by the Governor in Council, to the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, amounts to cover the losses sustained by the said corporation as a result of loans made to Indians pursuant to section 40A of the National Housing Act, 1954, $10,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Northern Canada Power Commission-
L50. Advances to the Northern Canada Power Commission for the purpose of capital expenditures in accordance with section 15 of the Northern Canada Power Commission Act, $1,800,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L5Oc. Advances to the Northern Canada Power Commission for the purpose of capital expenditures in accordance with section 15 of the Northern Canada Power Commission Act, $300,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Indian Affairs-
L51a. To authorize, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, loans to provide financial assistance to Indians for the construction of houses in areas other than Indian reserves: to authorize advances to cover construction costs of the houses; to authorize the minister,
November 25, 1966

In accordance with regulations approved by the Governor in Council, to forgive the repayment of a loan or any part thereof made to an Indian under this authority and to authorize a special account in the consolidated revenue fund to be known as the Indian housing assistance account, (a) to which all loans and advances made under this authority shall be charged; and (b) to which shall be credited (i) all repayments of principal amounts of loans, (ii) all repayments of advances, and (iii) all amounts the payment of which is forgiven by the minister under this authority, the total amount that may be charged to the account at any time, after deducting therefrom all outstanding advances, shall not exceed $1,000,000, $1,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Northern Administration-
L52a. Loans to the government of the Northwest Territories for capital expenditures in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council which loans shall, for purposes of Northern Affairs and National Resources Vote 118 of Special Appropriation Act 1963, be deemed to be loans for capital expenditures in the Territories as provided for in the agreement entered into between the parties pursuant to that vote, $2,700,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L53a. Loans to the government of the Northwest Territories, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, to assist in the design and construction of a water and sewer system at Hay River, Northwest Territories, $558,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L54a. Loans to the government of the Northwest Territories, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council for the development of a townsite at Pine Point, Northwest Territories, $500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and Indian Affairs and Northern Development. The estimates of the Post Office Department, vote No. la.
Supply-Privy Council


[Stage Direction]
la. Postal services, $1,950,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of the Post Office. The committee will now take up the estimates of the Privy Council, vote 10a.


[Stage Direction]
10a. General administration-To extend the purposes of Privy Council Vote 10 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to include the grant detailed in these estimates and to provide a further amount of, $300,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15a. Expenses of royal commissions listed in the details of estimates, $472,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15c. Expenses of the royal commissions listed in the details of estimates, $908,000.


Edward Nasserden: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege to state that I object to this way of carrying through so many millions of dollars-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Edward Nasserden: -with no examination by the-


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. I refer the hon. member to the order of the house made on Tuesday, November 22, 1966, which says:
That on Friday, November 25, 1966, at 5:30 p.m., every question necessary to dispose of all outstanding main and supplementary estimates, tabled in this session, and thereafter all subsequent proceedings leading to the passage of the appropriation bill based thereon shall be forthwith disposed of, without amendment or debate, notwithstanding the provisions of any standing order;-


Edward Nasserden: Well, Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Edward Nasserden: -I am rising on a question of privilege to express my dissatisfaction with this way-


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order, please. Shall vote 15c carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

November 25, 1966
Supply-Public Works
17a. Expenses of the Science Council of Canada, $137,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
ISc. Expenses related to the planning of the 1967 visits of state, $265,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Privy Council. The committee will now proceed to the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Public Works,
vote 15.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS A-Department-
Accommodation Services-[DOT]
15. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings (including expenditures on works on other than federal property); provided that no contract may be entered into for new construction with an estimated total cost of $50,000 or more unless the project is individually listed in the details of estimates, $32,250,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15a. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings (including expenditures on works on other than federal property); provided that no contract may be entered into for new construction with an estimated total cost of $50,000 or more unless the project is individually listed in the details of estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Harbours and rivers engineering services-
20. Operation and maintenance, $7,380,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Construction or acquisition of equipment, $1,050,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[The Chairman.]
30. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements, of and plans and sites for harbour and river works (including expenditures on works on other than federal property); provided that no contract may be entered into for new construction with an estimated total cost of $50,000 or more unless the project is individually listed in the details of estimates, $30,250,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
30a. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of. and plans and sites for, harbour and river works (including expenditures on works on other than federal property); provided that no contract may be entered into for new construction with an estimated total cost of $50,000 or more unless the project is individually listed in the details of estimates, $1,830,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Roads, bridges and other engineering services-
35. Operation and maintenance including authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amount of the operating expenses of the New Westminster bridge, $6,043,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for the roads, bridges and other engineering works listed In the details of the estimates, provided that the amounts within the vote to be expended on individually listed projects may be increased or decreased subject to the approval of treasury board, $16,675,000. Trans-Canada highway-


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, roads, bridges and other engineering works-To extend the purposes of Public Works Vote 40 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to provide for the construction of a causeway and associated structures across Northumberland Strait and to include the project detailed in these estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966	COMMONS
50. Trans-Canada Highway-Construction through national parks, $1,175,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Testing laboratories-
55. Operation and maintenance, $1,244,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
57 a. Trans-Canada Highway-To provide, notwithstanding any other Act, for the payment until May 31, 1971 by Canada to any province with which Canada has entered into an agreement under the Trans-Canada Highway Act or Appropriation Act No. 5. 1963, of contributions in respect of the cost incurred by such province prior to December 31, 1970, in construction of the Trans-Canada Highway; to provide notwithstanding any other Act, for the payment until May 31, 1971, to the provinces of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick of contributions equal to ninety per cent of the cost incurred between April 1, 1963 and December 31, 1970 by each of those provinces in construction of the Trans-Canada Highway; to provide, notwithstanding any other Act, that the aggregate of all expenditures under sections 4, 5 and 6 of the Trans-Canada Highway Act shall not exceed eight hundred and twenty-five million dollars, and to authorize the Minister of Public Works, with the approval of the Governor in Council, to enter into agreements with the provinces to give effect to the foregoing provisions; additional amount required in the current fiscal year, $18,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to division.
B-National Capital Commission-
60. Operation and maintenance, general administration and interest charges on outstanding loans that were made for the purpose of acquiring property in the National Capital region, $7,332,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
65. Payment to the National Capital Fund, $18,400,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
65c. Payment to the National Capital Fund, $6,600,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Supply-Secretary of State L50. Loans to the National Capital Commission in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region, excluding property being acquired for the purpose of establishing what is commonly referred to as the "greenbelt", $11,700,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L65. Loans to the National Capital Commission in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act, for the purpose of acquiring property in that area of the national capital region commonly referred to as the "greenbelt", $1,900,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of Public Works. We shall now go to the Department of the Secretary of State, vote No. 1.
DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE A-Department-
1. Departmental administration including a grant of $100,000 to the Fathers of Confederation Memorial Trust. Charlottetown. P.E.I., $743,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. Departmental administration-To extend the purposes of Secretary of State Vote 1 of the main estimates for 1966-67 to include the expenses of the Committee on Election Expenses, the grant detailed in these estimates, and to provide a further amount of, $256,750.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
3c. Special grant to the Fathers of Confederation Memorial Trust, Charlottetown, P.E.I., $100,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Corporations branch, $197,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

Supply-Secretary of State
5a. Corporations branch, $6,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. Translation bureau, $2,998,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
National Museum of Canada-*
15. Administration, operation and maintenance, $2,240,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Patent and copyright-
(control and supervision vested in the President of the Privy Council)-
20. Patent division, copyright and industrial designs division and trade marks office including contributions to the international office for the protection of literary and artistic works and the international office for the protection of industrial property, $3,645,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
National Arts Centre-
22. Administrative expenses of the office of the co-ordinator of the National Centre for the Performing Arts, $199,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
23. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $7,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
University Grants-
27a. Payments to the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada-To increase the payment of grants provided for in section 8A of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act in respect of the academic year commencing in September, 1966, by making payments not exceeding $60,000,000 in the fiscal years 1966-67 and 1967-68
(a) to the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada in an aggregate amount calculated by multiplying the population of each province, other than a province described in paragraph (b), for the calendar year ending in the fiscal year [The Chairman.]
1966-67 by $3, such aggregate amount and any amount paid to the Association pursuant to section 8A of the said Act, notwithstanding subsection (2) thereof, to be distributed amongst the institutions of higher learning in such province in accordance with an agreement to be entered into, with the approval of the Governor in Council, between the Secretary of State on behalf of Canada, and the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, and
(b) to a province that is a prescribed province for the purposes of section 8A of the said Act for the fiscal year 1966-67 in an aggregate amount calculated by multiplying the population of that province for the calendar year ending in that fiscal year by $3,
and to provide that the province of Quebec shall be deemed for purposes of section 8A of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act to be a prescribed province for the fiscal year 1966-67; amount required for the fiscal year 1966-67, $38,400,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
B-Centennial Commission-
35. General administration, including the national conference on the centennial of confederation, $3,278,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35a. General administration, $1,865,500. The Chairman: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division. Item agreed to on division.
35c. General administration, including the National Conference on the Centennial of Confederation, $342,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Programs and projects of national significance including grants towards such programs and projects, $9,519,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Programs and projects of national significance, including grants toward such programs and projects, $4,279,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

40c. Programs and projects of national significance, including grants toward such programs and projects, $996,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
45. Payment to the centennial of confederation fund to enable grants to be made to the provinces for local projects of a lasting nature (the total of such grants made from the said fund not to exceed $18,935,000) and to enable grants to be made to the provinces for projects included in the federal-provincial confederation memorial program, $13,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes the estimates of the Department of the Secretary of State. The Board of Broadcast Governors, vote No. 1.


[Stage Direction]
1. Salaries and other expenses, $508,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
lc. Salaries and other expenses, $200,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, vote No. 1.


[Stage Direction]
1. Grants in respect of the net operating amount required to discharge the responsibilities of the national broadcasting service, $110,643,000.
Mr. Johnston:: Mr. Chairman, I request a vote on item No. 1 of the C.B.C.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 65; nays, 20.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order. I declare vote No. 1 of the C.B.C. carried.
[DOT] (6:00 p.m.)
lc. Grant in respect of the net operating amount required to discharge the responsibilities of the national broadcasting service, $1,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Secretary of State
International broadcasting service-
5. International broadcasting service including authority to credit to the appropriation revenue from the rental of facilities in Montreal, Sackville and Vancouver to an amount of $468,000 and to reexpend these moneys for the purposes of the international broadcasting service, $2,841,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Loans, investments and advances-
L10. Loans to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the purpose of capital expenditures subject to terms and conditions prescribed by the Governor in Council, $30,424,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L12c. Advances to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, in such amounts and in accordance with such terms and conditions as the Governor in Council may approve, for the purpose of increasing working capital, $6,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the C.B.C. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Chief Electoral Officer.


[Stage Direction]
1. Salaries and expenses of office, $112,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Chief Electoral Officer. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Civil Service Commission.


[Stage Direction]
1. Salaries and contingencies of the commission including compensation in accordance with the incentive award plan of the public service of Canada, $8,087,900.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $2,482,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966

Supply-Secretary of State
lc. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $1,116,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Civil Service Commission.
The committee will now consider the estimates of the National Film Board.


[Stage Direction]
1. Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $6,781,500.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Acquisition of equipment, $507,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the National Film Board. The committee will now conclude the estimates of the National Gallery.


[Stage Direction]
1. Administration, operation and maintenance including the payment of $500,000 to the national gallery purchase account for the purpose of acquiring works of art in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act, and grants as detailed in the estimates. $1,857,200.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the National Gallery. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Public Archives and National Library.


[Stage Direction]
A-Public Archives-
1. General administration and technical services, $1,341,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. General administration and technical services, $25,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
[The Chairman.]
B-National Library-
5. General administration including a payment of $150,000 to the national library purchase account for the purpose of acquiring books, in conformity with section 12 of the National Library Act, $929,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Public Archives and National Library. The committee will now consider the estimates of Public Printing and Stationery.
Public Printing and Stationery-
1. Departmental administration, $244,700.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5. Printing, binding and distribution of official documents and publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public including the Canada Gazette and the Annual Statutes, and the purchase for sale of such other publications and related material as the treasury board may approve. $4,439,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of Public Printing and Stationery. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Solicitor General.


[Stage Direction]
A-Office of the Solicitor General-
1. Expenses of the office of the Solicitor General including administrative expenses of the committee on corrections plus such fees, salaries and expenses as may be approved by treasury board for members and the panel of consultants and staff named by the minister to advise and assist the committee, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $543,550.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
la. Expenses of the office of the Solicitor General and grants as detailed in the estimates, $65,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
B-Correctional services-
5. Administration, operation and maintenance including compensation to discharged inmates
November 25, 1966

permanently disabled while in penitentiaries, $34,769,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $28,970,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
C-Royal Canadian Mounted Police-
National police services, federal law enforcement duties and provincial and municipal policing under contract-
15. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as detailed in the estimates, $71,612,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
15a. National police services, federal law enforcement duties and provincial and municipal policing under contract-administration, operation and maintenance. $1,264,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $5,569,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20a. National police services, federal law enforcement duties and provincial and municipal policing under contract-construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $761,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Payment in the current and subsequent fiscal years of a pension, (a) to Mrs. Margaret Cox. Mrs. Victoria Desjardins, Mrs. Nora Jean Massan, Mrs. Margaret Nicholson, Mrs. Catherine Mildred Ralls, Mrs. Doris Freda Sampson, Mrs. Eunice Wain-wright, Mrs. K. M. Cobble, Mrs. Robina Holman, Mrs. V. M. Rapeer. Mrs. E. M. Shaw. Mrs. A. A. Sander and Mrs. T. Reay, and to any widow of a former member of the R.C.M. Police who in the year is in receipt of a pension granted under
Supply-Transport
section 78 of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act, in an amount equal to the amount that would be payable in that year to each such person under schedule B to the Pension Act if each of them were the widow of a Lt.-Col. (Army) and entitled, pursuant to the Pension Act, to payment of a pension in that year at the rate set out in schedule B to that act minus any amount payable to such person in the year pursuant to any other statutory authority providing for the payment of a pension in respect of the loss of life while engaged in the performance of duty: and (b) to Mrs. Georgina Harrison in an amount equal to the amount that would be payable in that year to her in accordance with schedule B to the Pension Act if she were the dependent mother of a Lt.-Col. (Army) and entitled, pursuant to the Pension Act, to payment of a pension in that year at the rate set out in schedule B to that act minus any amount payable to her for the year pursuant to any other statutory authority providing for payment of a pension in respect of the loss of life while engaged in the performance of duty. $18,024.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Solicitor General. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Department of Transport.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT A-Department-
1. Departmental administration, $4,899,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
lc. Departmental administration, $330,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
2a. Acquisition of railway cars and other equipment. $610,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Marine services-
5. Administration, operation and maintenance including fees for membership in the international organizations listed in the details of the estimates, pensions, grants and contributions as detailed in the estimates, the payment of expenses, including excepted expenses, incurred in respect of Canadian distressed seamen as defined in section 306 of the Canada Shipping Act and, in respect of the Canadian Coast Guard Service, authority to make recoverable advances for transportation, stevedoring

November 25, 1966
Supply-Transport
and other shipping services performed on behalf of individuals, outside agencies and other governments and authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current fiscal year not to exceed a total amount of $24,806,200, $44,440,100.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5a. Administration, operation and maintenance including grants as detailed in the estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
5c. Administration, operation and maintenance including authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to increase to $26,656,200 the commitments for the current fiscal year for the Canadian Coast Guard Service, $2,233,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
8c. Subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council may prescribe, to authorize the transfer of the assets of the Sydney Pilots' Pension Fund to the superannuation account under the Public Service Superannuation Act, to deem that all licensed pilots of the Sydney pilotage district who became employed in the public service on the first day of October, 1966 are required by subsection (1) of section 4 of the Public Service Superannuation Act to contribute to the superannuation account as of that date, to authorize the counting as pensionable service for the purposes of the Public Service Superannuation Act the service of such licensed pilots with the Sydney pilotage district and to authorize the payment out of the superannuation account of any pensions which, prior to the transfer of assets were paid out of the Sydney pilot's pension fund, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
10. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land, vessels and equipment including payments to provinces or municipalities as contributions towards construction done by those bodies and, in respect to aids to navigation, authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current fiscal year not to exceed a total amount of $5,850,300, $46,652,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

10a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land, vessels and equipment including payments to provincial or municipal authorities as contributions towards construction done by those bodies including authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to increase to $8,175,300 the commitments for the current fiscal year for aids to navigation and to provide a further amount of, $4,855,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Railways and steamships-
15. Payments to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport made by the company to the Minister of Finance, to be applied by the company in payment of the deficits, certified by the auditors of the company, arising in the operations in the calendar year 1966 in respect of the following services; Newfoundland ferry and terminals; Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals: Yarmouth, N.S.-Bar Harbor, Maine, U.S.A., ferry service, $16,416,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works and land, dock and terminal facilities, including improvements to terminal facilities owned by Newfoundland, and of vessels and related equipment as listed in the details of the estimates provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amounts within the vote to be expended on individually listed projects, $27,683,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works and land, dock and terminal facilities, including improvements to terminal facilities owned by Newfoundland, and of vessels and related equipment as listed in the details of the estimates provided that Treasury Board may increase or decrease the amounts within the vote to be expended on individually listed projects, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
20c. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works and land, dock and terminal facilities, including improvements to terminal facilities owned
November 25, 1966

by Newfoundland, and of vessels and related equipment as listed in the details of the estimates provided that Treasury Board may increase or decrease the amounts within the vote to be expended on individually listed projects, $2,716,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25. Payments in respect of the Maritime Freight Rates Act and to provinces as contributions, as detailed in the estimates, to assist highway construction related to the abandonment of railway branch lines, $45,000 for grants in aid of transportation research in universities, and payments for supplemental pension allowances to railway employees in the amounts and subject to the terms specified in the sub-vote titles listed in the details of estimates, $16,039,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25a. Payments in respect of the Maritime Freight Rates Act and to provinces as contributions, as detailed in the estimates, to assist highway construction related to the abandonment of railway branch lines-To increase to $95,000 the grants in aid of transportation research in universities and to provide a further amount of, $425,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
25c. Payments in respect of the Maritime Freight Rates Act-To extend the purposes of Transport vote 25 of the Main Estimates, 1966-67 to include the grant detailed in these estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Air services-
30. Administration, operation and maintenance including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder, the administration of the Radio Act and regulations issued thereunder, Canada's share of the costs of the international radio, telegraph and telephone organizations listed in the details of estimates, Canada's assessment for membership in the world meteorological organization and grants as detailed in the estimates. $103,875,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Supply-Transport
35. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including national airports (as determined by the Minister of Transport) and related facilities, contributions toward construction done by local or private authorities with respect to such airports; amounts to be paid in settlement of claims for compensation by persons whose property is injuriously affected by the operation of a zoning regulation made under authority of paragraph (j) of subsection (1) of section 4 of the Aeronautics Act, and authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to make commitments for the current fiscal year not to exceed, for airports and other ground services a total amount of $30,342,900, for radio aids to air and marine navigation a total amount of $15,645,620, and for meteorological services a total amount of $3,454,200, $42,696,500.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
35a. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including national airports (as determined by the Minister of Transport) and related facilities including authority, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to increase to $35,709,900 the commitments for the current fiscal year for airports and other ground services and to provide a further amount of, $4,450,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40. Contributions to assist in the establishment or improvement of local airports and related facilities, subsidies toward operation of municipal or other airports, payments to the other governments or international agencies that are detailed in the estimates for the operation and maintenance of airports, air navigation and airways facilities, in-cluring authority to pay assessments in the amounts and in the currencies in which they are levied, notwithstanding that the total of such payments may exceed the estimated equivalent in Canadian dollars, grants as detailed in the estimates for the development of civil aviation, and payments to the Canadian National Railway Company of the difference between revenues and expenses in the operation and maintenance of telecommunication facilities as detailed in the estimates in accordance with agreements entered into with the company with the approval of the Governor in Council. $2,426,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
40a. Contributions to assist in the establishment or improvement of local airports and related facilities, $353,000


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

November 25, 1966
Supp ly-Transport
40c. Contributions to assist in the establishment or improvement of local airports and related facilities and grants as detailed in the estimates for the development of civil aviation, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
B-Air Transport Board-
75. Salaries and other expenses, $872,800.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
77a. Balance of payment to Nordair Limited for operation of international charter flights undertaken but not completed by World Wide Airways Incorporated, $13,467.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
78a. Subventions for air carriers as detailed in the estimates. $313,300.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
C-Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada-
80. Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,520,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
82. Amount to be credited to the railway grade crossing fund, in addition to the amount to be credited to the fund under the Railway Act in the current fiscal year, for the general purposes of the fund and, notwithstanding section 30 of the Financial Administration Act, to authorize the making of commitments totalling $34,967,000 (in addition to any commitments in respect of which amounts are appropriated under this or any other act) in the current and subsequent fiscal years, $10,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
83a. Payments to the railway companies subject to paragraph No. 2 of Order No. 103860 dated February 23, 1961, of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada, which paragraph authorized the railways to increase freight rates on export bulk grain moving from certain ports located on Georgian Bay, the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River to Montreal and ports east thereof on

the St. Lawrence River and on the Canadian Atlantic coast and which paragraph has been suspended by Orders in Council, requiring the railways to continue in effect the rates which prevailed and were published on November 30, 1960, such payments to be the difference between those rates which were in effect on November 30, 1960 and compensatory rates as approved by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada, $3,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
84a. To provide for balance of payments to companies subject to Order Number 96300, dated November 17, 1958, of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada in respect of the period April 1, 1965 to March 31, 1966, payable to said companies for such diminution in their aggregate gross revenues during the said period as in the opinion of the said board is attributable to such companies maintaining the rate level for freight traffic at an 8% increase instead of 17% as authorized by the said Order, $600,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
84c. To provide payments to companies subject to Order Number 96300, dated November 17, 1958, of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada of an aggregate amount not exceeding $20,000,000 in respect of the period April 1, 1966 to March 31, 1967, to be paid in instalments at such times as may be determined by the said board for the purpose of reimbursing the said companies for such diminution in their aggregate gross revenues during the said period as in the opinion of the said board is attributable to such companies maintaining the rate level for freight traffic at an 8 per cent increase instead of 17 per cent as authorized by the said order; to provide payments to the said companies of an aggregate amount in respect of the calendar year 1966 of $50,000,000 to be paid in instalments at such times and in accordance with such methods of allocation as may be determined by the said board for the maintenance by such companies of the rates of freight traffic at the said reduced level; and to provide for additional payments to the said companies for the years 1964, 1965 and 1966 in an aggregate amount of $48,750,000 to be paid in instalments at such times and in accordance with such methods of allocation as may be determined by the said board for the maintenance by such companies of the rates of freight traffic at said reduced level during such period, $118,750,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
D-Canadian maritime commission-
85. Administration of the commission and the degaussing of Canadian government ships and Canadian-owned merchant ships, of 3,000 gross tons to 20,000 gross tons, of Canadian registry or of
November 25, 196S

United Kingdom registry if subject to re-transfer to Canadian registry under special inter-governmental arrangement, $466,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
90. Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates, $8,705,835.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
90a. Steamship subventions for coastal services as detailed in the estimates, $1.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
95. Capital subsidies for the construction of commercial and fishing vessels in accordance with regulations of the governor in council, $22,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
95a. Capital subsidies for the construction of commercial and fishing vessels in accordance with regulations of the Governor in Council, $8,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
95c. Capital subsidies for the construction of commercial and fishing vessels in accordance with regulations of the Governor in Council, $6,000,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
E-National Harbours Board-
100. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet reconstruction and capital expenditures during the calendar year 1966 as detailed in the estimates, $5,138,200.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
102a. To authorize, in accordance with terms and conditions approved by the Governor in Council, special assistance to firms displaced as a result
Supply-Transport
of construction of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool elevator in Vancouver harbour, B.C., $188,468.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
103.	To authorize expenditures by the national harbours board, either by itself or on behalf of or in cooperation with others, for certain purposes relating to the Canadian Universal and International Exhibition, Montreal, 1967, and to provide, notwithstanding sections 28 and 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, for an absolute grant to the board for such purposes to be credited to the national harbours board special account, $544,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
103a. To authorize expenditures by the National Harbours Board, either by itself or on behalf of or in co-operation with others, for certain purposes relating to the Canadian Universal and International Exhibition, Montreal, 1967, and to provide, notwithstanding Sections 28 and 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, for an absolute grant to the Board for such purposes to be credited to the National Harbours Board Special Account. $881,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
104.	Payment to the National Harbours Board to be applied in payment of the deficit (exclusive of interest on advances authorized by parliament and depreciation on capital structures) expected to be incurred in the calendar year 1966 in the operation of the Jacques Cartier bridge, Montreal harbour, $328,400.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
104a. Payment to the National Harbours Board to be applied in payment of the balance of the deficit incurred in respect of the calendar year 1965 and the deficit expected to be incurred in the calendar year 1966 (exclusive of interest on advances authorized by parliament and depreciation on capital structures) in the operation of the Jacques Cartier bridge, Montreal harbour, $737,600.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
F-St. Lawrence Seaway Authority-
105.	Operating deficit and capital requirements of canals and works entrusted to the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority with the approval of the governor in council, and to authorize, notwithstanding the

November 25, 1966
Supply-Transport
Financial Administration Act or any other act, the disbursement by the authority of revenues derived from the operation and management of such canals and works, $2,510,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
G-Atlantic Development Board-
110. Administration and operation, $1,388,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
110a. Administration and operation, $800,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
110c. Administration and operation, $650,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Loans, Investments and Advances-
General-
L75. Advances to the Nanaimo Harbour Commission on terms and conditions approved by the governor in council to assist in financing the construction of an extension to the boat harbour at Commercial Inlet, Nanaimo, British Columbia, $200,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L80. Advances to the Toronto Harbour Commissioners on terms and conditions approved by governor in council to assist in financing the construction of a new general cargo marine terminal in Toronto harbour, $1,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L81a. Loans to Canadian National Railways in such manner and subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve for maintenance, repair and acquisition of passenger equipment, $3,100,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.

L82c. To increase to $13,500,000 the amount that may be charged at any time to Department of Transport working capital advance (formerly the revolving fund mentioned in subsection (2) of section 101 of the Financial Administration Act, chap. 12, statutes of 1951, as mended); additional amount required, $3,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
Canadian Overseas Telecommunications
Corporation-
L85. Loan to the Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corporation in accordance with section 14 of the Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corporation Act for additions and betterments to facilities, $13,199,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
National Harbours Board-
L90. Advances to National Harbours Board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1966 on any or all of the following accounts:
Reconstruction and capital expenditures-
St. John's Nfld	$	500,000
Belledune	 7,700,000
Montreal	 20,603,000
Vancouver	 7,885,000
36,688,000
Less-Amount to be expended from
Replacement and other funds	 8,100,000


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division. Item agreed to on division.
L90a. Advances to National Harbours Board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1966 on the following account:
Reconstruction and capital expenditures-
Montreal	$7,200,000
Less: Amount to be expended from replacement and other funds ($1,200,000) and provision in the main estimates for 1966-67 for Belledune ($1,800,000) and Vancouver, ($1,500,000), $2,700,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
November 25, 1966	COMMONS DEBATES
St. Lawrence Seaway Authority-	[DOT]
L95. Loans to the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority in such manner and subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, $32,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.
L95a. Loans to the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority In such manner and subject to such terms and
conditions as the governor in council may approve, $1,500,000.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Item agreed to on division.


Herman Maxwell Batten: This concludes the estimates of the Department of Transport. The committee will now consider the estimates of the Department of Veterans Affairs.


[Stage Direction]
Welfare services, allowances and other benefits-
10c. War veterans allowances-to provide effective the 1st day of September, 1966, that the War Veterans Allowance Act, 1952, be amended by repealing schedule A to the said act and substituting therefor the schedule A set out in the details of the estimates, and the rates mentioned in section 5 of the said act are amended on the same basis, $7,500,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions-
25c. Pensions for disability and death-to provide effective the 1st day of September, 1966, that the Pension Act be amended by repealing schedules A and B to the said act and substituting therefor the schedule A and B set out in the details of the estimates, $14,600,000.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the item carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Herman Maxwell Batten: This completes consideration of the main and supplementary estimates which are before the committee of supply.
Mr. Sharp moves that I do now rise, report certain resolutions and request leave to sit again at the next sitting of the house.
Motion (Mr. Sharp) agreed to: Yeas, 62; nays, 20.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.
Ways and Means
(6:10 p.m.)



WAYS AND MEANS

Mitchell William Sharp: that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to on division and the house went into committee, Mr. Batten in the chair.


Mitchell William Sharp: Resolved, that toward making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1967, the sum of $1,542,982,673.96, be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall the resolution carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.
Resolution reported and concurred in, on division.
Mr. Sharp thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-248, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending March 31, 1967.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Batten in the chair.
On clause 2-$1,542,982,673.96 granted for 1966-67.


Mr. Bell (Carlelon):: Mr. Chairman, may we at least have the customary assurance that the bill is in the usual form and contains nothing which is unusual?


Edgar John Benson: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to give that assurance.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall clause 2 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. The bill just handed to me says on the front "As passed by the House of Commons". I submit that we have not yet passed this bill.


Mr. Hellyer:: There is no date on it.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall clause 2 carry?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Clause agreed to on division.

Clauses 3 to 5 inclusive agreed to on division.
Schedules A to D inclusive agreed to on division.
Title agreed to on division.
Preamble agreed to on division.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed on division.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Mcllrailh:: Mr. Speaker, on Monday it is proposed to submit for consideration as the first business the item dealing with the extension of the charters of banks, in accordance with the request of the committee.


Mr. Lambert:: That is wrong.


George James McIlraith: I beg your pardon?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: The committee did not request that; the committee requested that a different bill be submitted.


George James McIlraith: I do not want to argue about the contents of the bill with the hon. member. It was my intention to indicate to the house that the first item for consideration on Monday would be the bill dealing with the extension of bank charters.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: You will look sorry if we have to sit during Christmas and New Year's.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I could announce the business of the house for Monday. The second item is the medicare bill at the committee stage, to be followed by the resolution preceding the bill to provide supplementary payments to recipients of old age security.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to ask the house leader whether or not he will give consideration to a reversal of the order of the last two items. The item which he has indicated as the second item of business will not come into force, according to the government's intention, until 1968. The item he has referred to as the third order of business is an urgent item. Let us reverse the order.


George James McIlraith: We are taking these items in this order because it is necessary that the provinces have something definite on which they can make their plans for bringing this program into operation.


[Stage Direction]
It being 22 minutes past six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

November 25, 196G
Business of the House [The following items were passed in Committee of Supply this day:]
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE 1, la, 5, 10, 15, 15a, 17a, 20, 20a, 25, 25a, 30, 30a. 35, 35a, 35c, 40, 40c, 45, 45a, 50, 55, 60 and 60a.

[Stage Direction]
la, 6c, 15a, 32c and 35a.

[Stage Direction]
5a and 20a.

[Stage Direction]
1, la, 5, 10, 15, 15a, 15c, 30, 35, 35a, 36a, 40, L20, L21a, L22a, L23b and L25.
[Stage Direction]
1, la, 2c, 3a, 4a, 5, 10, 15, 15a, 15c, 17, 18a, 20, 20a, 20c, 22a, 23a, 25, 30, 35, 35a, 40, 40a, 45,
L30, L31a and L32b.
[Stage Direction]
1.
[Stage Direction]
1.
[Stage Direction]
23a, 30a, 10c and 16c.
[Stage Direction]
1, la and 5.
[Stage Direction]
15c, 20a and 20c.
[Stage Direction]
1, la, 5, 10, 15, 15c, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 40a, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65a, 70, 70a, 75 , 75a, 80, 85, 100,
105c, 110, L40, L40a and L40c.
[Stage Direction]
1, 5, 10, 15, L5 and L7a.
[Stage Direction]
1, 15, 15c, 20, 25, 30, 35, 45, 48, 50, 55 and L45.
[Stage Direction]
1, 5, 10, 15, 17a, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 40a, 40c,
41, 41a and 45.
[Stage Direction]
la and 5c.
[Stage Direction]
1, 3. 3a, 7a, 15, 20, 20c, 30a, 35c, 45, 45a, 50. L49c. L.50, L50c, L51a, L52a, L53a, and L54a.
[Stage Direction]
la.
[Stage Direction]
10a, 15a, 15c, 17a and 18c.
[Stage Direction]
15, 15a, 20, 25, 30, 30a, 35, 40, 40a, 50, 55,
57a, 60, 65, 65c, L60 and L65.
November 25. 1966 COMMONS	DEBATES 10429 Supply-Items Passed
DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE 1, la, 3c, 5, 5a, 10, 15, 20, 22, 23, 27a, 35, 35a, 35c, 40, 40a, 40c and 45.	PUBLIC ARCHIVES AND NATIONAL LIBRARY 1, la, 5,
BOARD OF BROADCAST GOVERNORS 1 and lc.	DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC PRINTING AND STATIONERY 1 and 5.
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION 1, lc, 5, L10 and L12c.	SOLICITOR GENERAL 1, la, 5, 10, 15, 15a, 20, 20a and 25.
OFFICE OF THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER 1.	DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT 1, lc, 2a, 5, 5a, 5c, 8c, 10, 10a, 15, 20, 20a, 20c, 25,
CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION 1, la and lc.	25a, 25c, 30, 35, 35a, 40, 40a, 40c, 75, 77a, 78a, 80, 82, 83a, 84a, 84c, 85, 90, 90a, 95, 95a, 95c, 100, 102a, 103, 103a, 104, 104a, 105, 110, 110a, 110c, L75, L80, L81a,
NATIONAL FILM BOARD 1 and 5.	L82c, L85, L90, L90a, L95 and L95a.
NATIONAL GALLERY OF CANADA 1.	DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS 10c and 25c.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, November 28, 1966