1964-03-11

Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members heard yesterday with great pleasure the happy news from Buckingham palace, and would wish this House of Commons to send a message of congratulations and loyalty to the Queen, and of good wishes, good fortune and long life to the baby prince. Perhaps also, Mr. Speaker, we should not forget the man who is so often forgotten on these occasions, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh.
We rejoice with Her Majesty, thinking of her both as the Queen of Canada and head of the commonwealth, to whom we owe loyalty, and also as a gracious and lovely lady to whom we gladly give our respect and affection. The Queen, as wife and mother, exemplifies all that is finest and best in family life at a time when there are so many pressures undermining the solidarity and health of the family as the essential foundation of communal and national life.
The Queen also, as head of the commonwealth, symbolizes the full association, the free association, of many peoples of diverse colours, creeds and cultures from the four corners of the world in a commonwealth of nations.
Finally, as Queen of Canada as well as of Britain she is a living reminder of the depth of our roots and the continuity of our history. The monarchy thus adds strength and stability to our national development without detracting in any way from our democratic and our national freedom. It is well to remind ourselves of these things when so many of our institutions and traditions are under challenge and attack. But today we are thinking primarily of the Queen as a happy mother with a new baby.
I therefore move, seconded by the right hon. Leader of the Opposition:
That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty the Queen in the following words:
To Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and her other Realms and Territories! Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith:
20220-50%
Most Gracious Sovereign:
We, Your Majesty's Commons of Canada, in par' liament assembled, respectfully desire to offer our loyal and warm congratulations to Your Majesty and His Royal Highness the Prince Philip on the birth of a son. and to assure Your Majesty that this happy event gives the members of the House of Commons of Canada great joy and satisfaction.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: I am very happy to join with the Prime Minister in this motion, for the birth of the infant prince touches the feelings of us all, not only in our country but in countries in all parts of the world within the commonwealth. Her Majesty has given a life of service to her peoples everywhere while at the same time maintaining, as the Prime Minister has said, the happiness and joy of an exemplary family life. I express the hope, as did the Prime Minister, that the young prince's life will be one of happiness and service in a world at peace.
I think, too, that at this time the Queen should know that this message is not a perfunctory one but rather that it represents the heartfelt sentiments of her Canadian people. She will also want to know that however strident the babble of a minute minority may be, she, as Queen of Canada, and her husband the Prince Philip will be welcomed with loyalty, devotion and genuine affection when she visits her realm of Canada later this year.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Members of this party desire to associate themselves with the sentiments expressed in the motion moved by the Prime Minister and seconded by the Leader of the Opposition. In these troubled times the commonwealth has had a stabilizing influence in world affairs. This commonwealth of free nations is held together by a common loyalty to the crown, to our traditions of equality before the law and our parliamentary institutions. For those of us in the commonwealth, the crown and the monarchy have come to symbolize these institutions and these long held traditions.
For this reason we are glad to associate ourselves with this expression of loyalty and affection. We wish to convey to Her Majesty and to His Royal Highness Prince Philip our heartiest congratulations, and to the newborn prince our best wishes for a long, happy and useful life.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Personally, Mr. Speaker, and on behalf of the members of our party I am pleased indeed to share in the expression of joy and good will

Congratulations to Queen being made by this house to Her Majesty the Queen. Events such as this make us realize that our commonwealth is not simply a form of government organization, even though one of the greatest heritages we have from it is the parliamentary form of government, for which each one of us individually in this house has a personal responsibility. Our commonwealth provides a much stronger bond, the bond of family relationship where the joys and sorrows of one member are those of all. We thank God for Her Majesty's safe delivery, and hope that in the years to come Canada and the commonwealth will be well served by our new prince.


Mr. Real Caouetie (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I gladly join with the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) in extending our best wishes to Her Majesty the Queen who has given birth to her fourth child, and wish them both good health and long life.
If Her Majesty the Queen is for many people a mere symbol of the crown, I must say that for us she represents a loving mother who brings forth children for her country. In this morning's edition of a Montreal newspaper I saw a picture of the Queen decked out in all her finery. I could not help thinking of the thousands of Canadian mothers who can only manage to buy clothes with social security allowances and unemployment insurance benefits. Yet, they also give birth to little Canadian princes who tomorrow will have to face the economic problems of the country.
If royalty is threatened in some part of the empire, I must say that the subjects are threatened in several parts of our country.
At any rate, I hope that the respect and love inspired by our Queen will enable our authorities to understand better their duties towards the people under their administration.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition:
That the said address which has just been adopted be engrossed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition:
That a message be sent to the Senate informing Their Honours that this house has passed an address to Her Most Excellent Majesty the Queen expressing congratulations on the occasion of the birth of a prince, and requesting Their Honours to unite with this house in the said address.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Georges Valade (St. Mary):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. It concerns a matter affecting all Roman Catholic members of this house, as well as the 10 million Canadians of Roman Catholic faith in this country.
My question of privilege rises from a statement made a few days ago by a former mayor of Toronto called Saunders. His statement was brought to my knowledge today only. This then is the first opportunity given me to bring up this question in the house.
As reported in the March 10, 1964 edition of La Presse, the remarks made by this former mayor would have the public believe that the Roman Catholic clergy is responsible for the wave of separatism.
I quote Mr. Saunders:
The Catholic clergy sowed the seeds of discord when they established missions on our continent.
I wish to object strongly to such claims which border on hysteria, if not pure and simple madness.
History gives clear evidence of the fact that if it had not been for the Roman Catholic clergy, lower Canada would have joined with American revolutionaries instead of standing with British forces to fight against the American invasion early in our history.
The Roman Catholic clergy has always been loyal and respectful of established authority. No member of the Catholic clergy made any statement as seditious as the one made by the former mayor of Toronto.
As a Roman Catholic and a member of parliament coming from a province where the population is Roman Catholic in a proportion of 80 per cent, I consider Mr. Saunders' statement as a personal insult and I ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Favreau), to have an examination made of that person's statement in order to take criminal proceedings if they are considered to be of a seditious nature.


Mr. Winch:: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


Georges-J. Valade: I am speaking on a question of privilege.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


Georges-J. Valade: I have the floor, Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: I am quite prepared to give a decision on the question of privilege. I understand the feelings of the hon. member

for St. Mary very well, but the remarks were made outside of this house, not in connection with any business which concerns this house in a procedural sense. I suggest to the hon. member that having made his protest to the highest court in the land it should be left there. I do not see any basic question of privilege; consequently I do not think the suggestion that the Minister of Justice should investigate the matter stands.



STANDING COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. E. Walker (York Centre) presented the first report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report lists of members to compose the standing committees of the house, as follows:

[Stage Direction]
Messrs. Brewin, Byrne, Cadieux (Terrebonne), Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands), Cashin, Casselman, Mrs., Chatterton, Coates, Davis, Deach-man, Dinsdale, Fairweather, Fleming (Okanagan-Revelstoke), Forest, Gelber, Groos, Haidasz, Her-ridge, Kindt, Laprise, Leboe, Macdonald, MacEwan, Macquarrie, Martineau, Matheson, Monteith, Nesbitt, Patterson, Pennell, Plourde, Regan. Ryan, Stewart, Turner.
Mr. Walker moved: that the report be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Lester Bowles Pearson: That the standing committees of this house be severally empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the house; and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to send for persons, papers and records.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I have today tabled a report "Private and Public Investment in Canada, Outlook 1964", containing the results of a recent survey of capital expenditure intentions. The survey covers business establishments, institutions, government and new housing. In view of the fact that my colleague the Minister of Finance will be bringing down his budget on Monday and will shortly be tabling his white paper, I thought I should indicate to the house the general results of this report.
The report indicates that total capital outlays of $10.1 billion are planned for
Statement on Royal Visit 1964. This figure exceeds actual outlays in 1963 by 8 per cent compared with increases of 7 per cent in each of the two preceding years.
More than half of the expected gross in total private and public investment is by the business community. Within the major business groups the sharpest expansion is indicated in manufacturing, where spending intentions for 1964 provide for an increase of 15 per cent compared with actual outlays in 1963. Manufacturing industries planning to have sharply increased programs under way in 1964 include pulp and paper, iron and steel, cement, transportation equipment, rubber and textiles. Higher outlays are also planned in mining, transportation, electric power, retail trade and in several other business sectors.
Within the institutional field larger spending programs are indicated for university and hospital facilities, but outlays for schools will be below the 1963 level, reflecting the advanced stage of the large technical school building program. Expanded provincial road construction programs are the major factor contributing to the 8 per cent increase in government projects. A substantial carryover of unfinished houses into the current year is expected to result in a further growth in house building activity.
Outlays for new construction and machinery and equipment in each ease are expected to be up by 8 per cent. Programs of this magnitude will entail increased activity in both the construction trades and equipment producing industries, and should provide an important stimulus to the economy generally.



ROYAL VISIT


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, on Monday last the Leader of the Opposition asked me certain questions about the invitation extended to Her Majesty to visit Prince Edward Island and Quebec. I said I would make a statement dealing with the background of the arrangements, and I am glad to do that now.
The question of a visit by Her Majesty to coincide with the centennial celebrations in Quebec city and Charlottetown appears first to have been raised in a letter of March 30, 1961, from the lieutenant governor of Prince Edward Island to His Excellency the Governor General. The lieutenant governor said that his government had asked him to forward an invitation to Her Majesty the Queen to be

Statement on Royal Visit present at the commemoration that was being planned for the historic meeting held in Charlottetown in 1864.
The matter was, of course, referred by the Governor General to the government of the day, who considered it in relation to plans being made both to commemorate the events of 1864 and the centennial of confederation itself. The then government decided in November, 1962 that a royal visit in 1964, which would include Quebec city and Charlottetown, would be appropriate if Her Majesty found it possible, as centennial celebrations would be taking place in those cities in 1964. The government was then advised in November, 1962 that the Queen would not be able to consider invitations for 1964 much before the autumn of 1963.
On September 25, 1963 the premier of Prince Edward Island wrote to me and, with reference to previous discussions, raised again the question of the invitation to the Queen. In a letter of November 5 to the premier I inquired as to the dates that might be most appropriate for Charlottetown, having in mind certain arrangements that Her Majesty was understood to have for the autumn of this year, that is 1964. Premier Shaw answered on November 21 indicating that if the exact anniversary of the Charlottetown conference was not possible, the most suitable time would be early in October.
As the federal-provincial conference was to begin a day or two after I got this letter, I felt that the best course would be to discuss the matter with Premier Shaw and Premier Lesage before extending any formal invitation. This I did on the evening of November 27 while they were here in Ottawa. The premiers of Quebec and Prince Edward Island both indicated their desire that an invitation should be extended. I then wrote formally to the Governor General on December 5 to advise him of this, and to ask that his office take the appropriate action to ascertain whether Her Majesty and the Duke of Edinburgh would be able to visit Charlottetown and Quebec in the autumn of 1964.
This was done and, as a result, the invitation was extended in the appropriate way through the office of the Governor General to Her Majesty to visit both Prince Edward Island and Quebec on the dates agreed upon. The invitation was accepted in a letter from the palace in London, dated December 24.
I find, Mr. Speaker, that I was in error when I said on Monday that I thought the fact of the visit had been announced in the house. I had forgotten that the acceptance came after the house had adjourned last December. The actual announcement was made in the

proper way from Government House on January 27 of this year. The text of that announcement was as follows:
It is announced from Government House that the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh have accepted the invitation of the government of Canada to attend special centennial celebrations in October commemorating the visits of the fathers of confederation to Charlottetown and Quebec city in 1864. The visit will begin in Charlottetown about October 6 and end in Quebec about October 12.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Lester Bowles Pearson: I informed the house the other day that today I would announce the plans for the Easter recess. It is proposed, Mr. Speaker, that the house should adjourn at the end of business on Thursday, March 26 and reassemble on Monday, April 6.

On the orders of the day:


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister if he would reconsider his announcement that the house will sit on the Thursday prior to Good Friday. Perhaps he would be kind enough to look at Hansard for April 12, 1962, page 2894, when his party, in the person of the house leader, asked that the house should not sit on the Thursday prior to Good Friday, since it is a holy day. The prime minister of the day agreed with that. Will the Prime Minister just look at that and see whether his present decision should be maintained?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I shall be glad to have a look at it, of course.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National
Health and Welfare) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the foHowing resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure, to be known as the Canada pension plan, to establish a comprehensive program of old age pensions in Canada payable to contributors, and to provide, among other things, for the payment of retirement pensions beginning at any age between 65 and 70 years; for the payment of pensions to surviving spouses beginning at any age from 65 years; for the progressive establishment of full pensions over an initial period of 10 years; for the co-ordination of pensions payable under the Old Age Security Act with pensions payable under the Canada pension plan and for the payment of adjusted pensions under the Old Age Security Act beginning at any age from 65 years; and to provide further that all

expenditures under the Canada pension plan, including costs of administration, shall be financed from contributions by employees, employers and self employed persons.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering implementation of the recommendation made in the report of the restrictive trade practices commission on the acquisition of the common shares of Hendershot Paper Products Limited by Canadian International Paper Company that "certain tariff changes which it considered would protect the public from unnecessarily high prices of containerboard and shipping containers and which would assist in removing the restrictive effects on the supply of container-board which are inherent in the situation where a predominant part of the containerboard production in Canada is made by integrated companies and is used in their own converting operations", be made?


Mr. Benson:: Such recommendations of this commission are always considered by the government and this particular recommendation is being studied in connection with future trade negotiations.


RECOMMENDATION RESPECTING CONTAINERBOARD AND SHIPPING CONTAINERS
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering implementation of the recommendation made in the report of the restrictive trade practices commission on the acquisition by Bathurst Power and Paper Company Limited of Wilson Boxes, Limited in 1962 that appropriate tariff changes be made to restore competitive conditions in the supply of container-board and in the supply of shipping containers"?


Edgar John Benson: Such recommendations of this commission are always considered by the government and this particular recommendation is being studied in connection with future trade negotiations.
DISPLAY OF BOOKS OF REMEMBRANCE Question No. 65


Mr. Matheson:: Has the Department of Veterans Affairs surveyed the possibility of procuring suitable permanent accommodation in the parliament buildings to display adequately all the Books of Remembrance containing the names of Canada's war dead?


Mr. Teillet:: This possibility was first considered on September 27, 1955, at the first meeting of the war memorials advisory committee, established by the then minister of veterans affairs, Hon. Hugues Lapointe; and on October 6, 1955, a majority of the members of that committee carefully explored the centre block and its environs for possible sites
Questions
for a suitable repository for the world war II Book of Remembrance. Subsequently the committee concluded that a satisfactory site for this purpose was not available there, and recommended that the world war II book be placed on display temporarily in the memorial chamber, pending the construction of a permanent repository on Nepean point.
On April 11, 1961, members of the committee again reconnoitred the centre block, seeking suitable sites for the Books of Remembrance for the South African war and the Korea conflict. Again the committee concluded that satisfactory sites were not available and recommended that these books be placed on display temporarily in the memorial chamber, pending the construction of the previously recommended permanent repository.


WORK ON ALASKA HIGHWAY
Mr. Nielsen: 1.	Was any construction, reconstruction or maintenance work performed on the Alaska highway in the Yukon since April 8, 1963, by any person, firm or corporation other than by the Department of National Defence and, if so (a) by whom was it performed, during what period and at what cost (b) were public tenders called in order to obtain the lowest cost therefor and to give equal bidding opportunity to all interested contractors and, if not, for what reason?
2.	Is any further such work contemplated and, if so, is it the intention of the government to call for public tenders?


Mr. Lamonlagne:: In so far as the Department of National Defence is concerned.
1.	Yes, (a)	(i) Rental of earthmoving
equipment, General Enterprises Ltd., Whitehorse, 1 May 63 to 31 Mar 64; $4,520. (ii) Loading and hauling gravel, Dawson Construction Ltd., Vancouver, 2 June 1963 to 23 Aug 1963; $55,676. (iii) Rental of D-7 tractor, General Construction Co., Vancouver, 14 May 1963; $193. (b) Yes for (i) and (ii); no for (iii) as it was felt a tender call for the rental of tractor was impractical as this was an emergency requirement to reopen the road following a blockage.
2.	The Department of Public Works does not assume responsibility for the operation and maintenance of the northwest highway system until the first of April. The department is at present in the process of making arrangements for the transfer of responsibility with the Department of National Defence, but is not in a position at this stage to state details of works contemplated.
Apart from the possibility of an emergency project, the Department of National Defence does not contemplate any further contract awards for work on the Alaska highway prior to 31 March 1964, when responsibility for the system will pass to the Department of Public Works.

Questions


COST OP INDIAN SERVICES
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many employment placement officers does the Indian affairs branch employ in each province?
2.	What are the costs of Indian services to the federal government for health, welfare, education, economic development?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. As of January 1, 1964: Maritimes, 1; Quebec, 1; Ontario, 5; Manitoba, 2; Saskatchewan, 1; Alberta, 2; British Columbia, 2. Total 14.
2.	Expenditures for fiscal year ending March 31, 1963:
(a)	Welfare (votes 60 and 65) $12,340,309
(b)	Economic development
(votes 70 and 75)	2,283,540
(c)	Education (votes 80 and 85) 28,954,296
Total	$43,578,145
Expenditures for the Department of National Health and Welfare for 1962-63 on health services to Indians and Eskimos were: operations and maintenance, $22,785,917; capital, $1,660,606.
Expenditure records do not provide separate costs for services to Indians and Eskimos.


* CONSTRUCTION OF WEATHER SHIP, BURRARD DRY DOCK CO.
Mr. Herridge: 1.	Has the construction of a weather ship by Burrard Dry Dock Company Limited for the Department of Transport been delayed for several months and, if so, (a) is the delay a result of an error on the part of the ship's designers of a magnitude which would affect the ship's displacement by several hundred tons?
2.	Will the correction of this error put the people of Canada to considerable extra expense in the form of additional architectural fees and an increase in the contract price and, if so, what is the amount of the additional cost?


Mr. Caniin:: 1 and 2. Construction has not been delayed for several months but is scheduled to commence this spring.
However, after the contract was awarded, during the normal investigation into the technical characteristics of the vessel, a modification was requested by the department's shipbuilding branch to maintain the stability and displacement to correct an oversight in design made by the consultants. This resulted in plans to fit aluminum superstructure in lieu of steel and also to have the double bottom
increased in scantlings in order to maintain the stability and displacement as previously model tested.
No additional architectural fees have resulted in this modification, but the total ship costs will have to be increased by perhaps $250,000 to cover this.


FISCAL RESULTS OF 1963 DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE
[Stage Direction]
Quesiton No. 123-Mr. Laprise:
On the basis of the results of the federal-provincial conference held November 26 to 29, 1963 what per capita advantages will accrue to each province and to what extent, in connection with fiscal arrangements?
Edgar John Benson: The estimated per capita financial gain to the provinces for the fiscal year 1964-65 as a result of the federal proposal made at the federal-provincial conference, November 26 to 29, 1963, is as follows:
Newfoundland	Dollars per Capita 6.67
Prince Edward Island	5.55
Nova Scotia	7.50
New Brunswick	8.95
Quebec	7.67
Ontario	2.20
Manitoba	7.27
Saskatchewan	2.64
Alberta	1.20
British Columbia	2.27
Average for all provinces	4.56


PUBLIC WORKS REPAIR TENDERS, VILLENEUVE COUNTY, QUE.
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 12 7-Mr. Caouette:
For what federal public buildings has the Department of Public Works called tenders for repair work, renovations and painting (a) in the county of Villeneuve (b) in Rouyn-Noranda, (c) to whom were tender forms distributed (d) who were the bidders (e) what was the amount of each tender (f) who obtained the contracts in each case?
Mr. Deschaieleis:: 
PROVISIONS FOR UNIVERSITY RESEARCH
Mr. Orlikow: X. How much money did the national research council provide for research equipment and supplies for Canadian universities last year?
2.	How much was requested by the universities for such equipment and supplies from the national research council?
3.	Is the government giving consideration to correcting the situation described in the report of the chairman of the medical research council for 196263 as "the great shortage of research laboratories'' which is "actively interfering with further progress", and also that "the serious drain of our competent scientists to the United States is not due to the higher scale of American salaries. It is due rather to the shortage of research laboratory space in Canada, and to the lack of funds for salaries with which to pay an adequate number of medical scientists and to support their research"?


Mr. Drury:: The answers in so far as the national research council, including the medical research council, is concerned, are as follows:
1.	The money provided to Canadian universities last year for grants in aid of research is in two categories, i.e. science and engineering and medical. There are three types of grants for each of these categories, operating, major equipment, and major installations. The operating grants cover salaries of assistants to professors, equipment and supplies. The other types of grants are self explanatory. No information is available as to the exact amount of operating grants spent for research equipment and supplies. However, it is estimated that about 47 per cent of the grants for science and engineering is for this purpose and about 35 per cent in the case of medical research grants. The amounts granted last year (1962-63) are as follows:
Major Major instal-Operating equipment lations
Science and
Engineering $6,088,000	$736,000 $475,000
Medical	3,071,209	357,347 NilTotal	$9,159,209	$1,093,347	$475,0002.	The amounts requested last year (196263) by the universities were as follows:
Major Major instal-Operating equipment lations
Science and
Engineering $9,290,000 $2,120,000 $725,000 Medical	3,943,589	674,087	Nil
Total	$13,233,589 $2,794,087 $725,000
3.	At the present time the medical research council is planning to continue a fairly rapid expansion of its program for scholarships and grants in aid of research. It has no plans for 
construction and operation of its own laboratories.


REPAIRS TO PUBLIC BUILDINGS, CHAPLEAU COUNTY, QUE.
Mr. Laprise: 1.	For which public buildings in the county of
Chapleau has the Department of Public Works called tenders for repairs, renovations, or painting, since January 1	1963?
2.	Who were the invited bidders in each case?
3.	Who supplied the list of contractors and individuals from which invitees were to be chosen?
4.	Who were the bidders in each case?
5.	What were the amounts bid in each case?
6.	To whom were the contracts finally awarded in each case?
7.	On which of these contracts is work presently under way?
8.	In addition to alterations done on public buildings in the county of Chapleau in 1963, and in addition to those started in 1963 and not yet completed, does the Department of Public Works propose to carry out any renovations, repairs, or painting on its buildings during 1964 and, if so what works will be undertaken and when will they be expected to get under way?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. La Sarre, post office, alteration of postal screens; Macamic, post office, resurfacing in front of building; Amos, post office, alteration and setting up of post office boxes; Matagami, post office, new postal screens.
2.	La Sarre, Francois Michaud, La Sarre (P.Q.); Equipment Coursol, Amos (P.Q.); Ber-natchez Machine Shop, Amos (P.Q.); Perron Machine Shop, Amos (P.Q.); Rene Larouche, Amos (P.Q.).
Macamic, D. Lamothe Ltee, Noranda (P.Q.).
Amos, Equipment Coursol, Amos (P.Q.); Perron Machine Shop, Amos (P.Q.); Rene Larouche, Amos (P.Q.).
Matagami, Gerard Allard, Amos, (P.Q.); Lucien Latulippe, Val d'Or (P.Q.); Hector Le-clerc, Vassan (P.Q.).
3.	No list has been supplied. As far as La Sarre, Amos and Matagami are concerned, the contractors invited to submit tenders were already known at the department because they had already done some work or had expressed the wish to submit tenders for some small works in that field. In the case of Macamic, the price was set by the only road contractor working in that sector.
4 and 5. La Sarre, Francois Michaud, $1,944.80; Equipment Coursol, $2,186.30; Ber-natchez Machine Shop, $2,475; Perron Machine Shop, $2,720; Rene Larouche-did not tender.
Macamic, D. Lamothe Ltee, $1,875.
Amos, Equipment Coursol, did not submit any tender; Perron Machine Shop, did not submit any tender; Rene Larouche, did not submit any tender.

Matagami, tenders will be received until March 13, 1964.
6.	La Sarre, the contract has not been awarded yet. Macamic, D. Lamothe Ltee- work completed. Amos, new tenders will be called.
7.	None.
8.	La Sarre, post office, heating and rezoning-June 1964. Amos, post office, painting of interior and replacement of windows -June 1964.


INCOME TAX EXEMPTION FOR TRANSPORTATION AND OTHER COSTS
Mr. Mather: Is consideration being given to exempting from income tax the costs of transportation, board, and equipment of loggers and other industrial workers?


Edgar John Benson: Representations on this matter, as well as on a wide range of other tax subjects, are being studied during the preparation of the budget.


POSTMASTER, SCOTT JUNCTION, QUE.
Mr. Boutin: 1.	Who has been appointed postmaster at Scott Junction, county of Dorchester, replacing Mr. Daniel Martineau?
2.	Who were the other candidates for this appointment?
3.	What marks were obtained by each candidate who wrote the examination for the appointment?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. Miss Carmen M. G. Laflamme has been appointed to the position of postmaster at Scott Junction, county of Dorchester, replacing Mr. Daniel Martineau.
2 and 3. As a result of competition 63-M-1336 for the position of postmaster, Scott Junction, P.Q., the eligible list bore the names of Miss Carmen M. G. Laflamme who ranked first, and Mr. Roger J. G. Roy, who ranked second.
The civil service commission is required, by the Civil Service Act, to publish in the Canada Gazette eligible lists established as a result of open competitions. Each such list contains the names of the highest ranking candidates who may be appointed to the civil service as vacancies occur during the ensuing year. The eligible list for competition 63-M-1336 was published in the Canada Gazette on February 1, 1964.
Having regard for the right to privacy of the candidates and the possibility that publication of information could prove to be not only embarrassing but prejudicial to them, the commission feels it should neither release for publication the names of candidates who were not included on the eligible list nor release the marks made by any candidate in the examination.
Questions


HAY RIVER, N.W.T.  CURTAILMENT OF TEACHING SERVICE
Mr. Rheaume: Has the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources plans to discontinue teaching grades 10, 11, and 12 in the federal school at Hay River, N.W.T. and, if so (a) when will this curtailment of facilities occur (b) what alternative teaching services will be provided for these pupils (c) what reasons necessitate this curtailment of service?


Mr. Laing:: Grade 12 has not been taught at Hay River for several years because of the very small potential enrolment, and will not be taught in 1964-65. Pupils are accommodated at the Sir John Franklin school in Yellowknife.
Because of the small enrolment in grades 10 and 11, a high school program fully satisfactory for matriculation requirements cannot be offered. Consideration was accordingly given to accommodating these pupils in Yellowknife, where a much better program would be available for them. However, in the light of parents' wishes, the department now plans to continue grades 10 and 11 in Hay River in September, 1964.


RESEARCH GRANT APPLICATIONS, VETERANS AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many applications for grants to finance research projects did the Department of Veterans Affairs get in each of the past three years?
2.	What was the total dollar value of the projects requested from the Department of Veterans Affairs?
3.	How many of the applications made to the Department of Veterans Affairs were approved in full?
4.	How many of the applications were approved in part only?
5.	How many applications for research grants were turned down in each of the last three years?
6.	What were the reasons for the refusals?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: 1. Projects received: 1961-62, 92; 1962-63, 94; 1963-64, 94.
2.	Amount requested:	1961-62; $453,113-
1962-63, $478,330; 1963-64, $502,557.
3.	Approved in full: 1961-62, 69; 1962-63 74; 1963-64, 65.
4.	Approved in part: 1961-62, 17; 1962-63, 10; 1963-64, 21.
5.	Number turned down: 1961-62, 6; 1962-63, 10; 1963-64, 8.
6.	Reasons for refusals, (a) considered unsound research by the advisory committee for medical research, (b) shortage of funds.


JEANNE MANCE HOUSING PROJECT, MONTREAL
Mr. Caouelte: 1.	When was construction work on the Jeanne Mance housing project, in Montreal, completed?
2.	How many housing units were built?
3.	What was the expropriation cost of the land?
4.	What was the cost of demolition of buildings?
5.	What was the cost of clearing the land?

Questions
6.	What was the cost of housing construction?
7.	How many housing units were rented during the last fiscal year?
8.	What amount of rent was paid by tenants during the last fiscal year?
9.	How many years is it expected to take before a full return of invested capital can be realized?
10. What was the operating surplus or deficit, as the case may be, for the last fiscal year and since the project went into operation?
11.	What is the number of persons living in the project?
12.	What is the average income of families living in the project?
13.	What was the cost of maintenance of the project (a) during the last fiscal year (b) since it went into operation?
14.	How many persons are involved in the maintenance of the project?
15.	What sum was spent annually (a) on maintenance staff (b) on the administrator?
16.	What is the federal government's financial participation (C.M.H.C.) in the project?
17.	On the basis of the figures for the last fiscal year, what sums will have to be invested in the project for the duration of the agreement?
Answer: 1. The last housing unit was completed and ready for occupancy in May 1961. The construction of a maintenance warehouse together wtih landscaping in the immediate area will be completed in the spring of 1964 which will complete the project.
2.	796.
3.	The cost of acquiring land and buildings in the area was $6,833,406.
4.	$185,918.
5.	The cost of clearance is included in the cost of demolition given in 4.
6.	The cost of the housing project is $10,667,912 subject to adjustment on completion of the remaining work.
7.	In 1963, 197 units became vacant and were re-rented.
8.	$536,605.
9.	Fifty years.
10.	The operating deficit (a) for 1963 was
$421,764;	(b) for 1959-1962 inclusive was

11.	2,697.
12.	$2,376 per annum.
13.	(a) $128,733. (b) $309,440.
14.	14.
15.	(a) 1959, $2,854; 1960, $49,507; 1961, $42,617; 1962, $43,740; 1963, $50,934.
(b) 1959, $4,200; 1960, $8,400; 1961, $9,000; 1962, $9,000; 1963, $9,000.
16.	The federal government contributed $3,509,662 toward the cost of acquiring and clearing the area under section 23, National Housing Act. The federal government has contributed 75 per cent of the capital cost of the housing project and is responsible for 75 per cent of the operating losses under section 36, National Housing Act.
[Mr. Caouette.l
17.	No forecast has been made of the aggregate anticipated operating losses for the 50-year amortization period of the project. A projection of operating losses based on the experience of the last fiscal year would fail to take into account the probable increase in rental revenue in the years ahead. It is anticipated that at some undetermined time in the future the project would operate at no loss.


N.H.A. LOANS FOR SEWAGE TREATMENT PROJECTS
Mr. Stefanson: 1.	How many loans have been made under the National Housing Act, amendment part VI B, assented to December 2, 1960, loans for municipal sewage treatment projects?
2.	What is the total amount of loans?
3.	What is the total amount of loans for each of the following years 1961, 1962 and 1963?
4.	What is the total amount of reduction to date of the indebtedness of these loans under the forgiveness clause?
Answer: Data relate to January 31, 1964.
1.	547 loans were approved by order in council. On 371 of these loans, all or part of the funds had been advanced.
2.	The total amount of the approved loans was $123.0 million. Of this, $63.4 million had been advanced.
3.	Approvals by order in council: 1961, $39.9 million; 1962, $45.1 million; 1963, $37.1 million.
4.	The reduction of indebtedness on the amounts advanced was $15.9 million.


N.H.A. LOANS FOR SEWAGE TREATMENT PROJECTS, MANITOBA
Mr. Stefanson: 1.	How many loans have been made in the province of Manitoba under the National Housing Act, amendment part VI B, assented to December 2, 1960, loans for municipal sewage treatment projects?
2.	What is the total amount of these loans?
3.	What is the total amount to date of the reduction of the indebtedness under the forgiveness clause of these loans?
4.	What projects have already been approved in Manitoba, giving date of approval, name of municipality and amount of loan?
Answer: 1. Data relate to January 31, 1964. Fifty loans in the province of Manitoba were approved by order in council. On 22 of these loans, all of the funds had been advanced.
2.	The total amount of the approved loans was $13.4 million. Of this, $0.9 million had been advanced.
3.	The reduction of indebtedness on the amount advanced was $222,640.
4.	Loans for municipal sewage treatment projects approved by order in council January 31, 1964:

Municipality or
Corporation	Date	$000Beausejour	5/62	7Cartwright	6/62	28Crystal City	10/61	30Dauphin	5/62	151Deloraine	7/62	40Elkhorn	5/63	32Erickson	5/62	14Gilbert Plains	10/63	8Gretna	6/61	33Hamiota	8/62	23Hartney	7/61	15Lac du Bonnet	8/63	48MacGregor	8/63	41Morden	4/61	39Neepawa	9/62	17Oak Lake	11/62	21Pilot Mound	8/63	26Portage la Prairie	5/61	107Rossburn	8/63	39R.M. of Lome (Swan Lake)	11/62	18R.M. of Pipestone (Reston)	8/62	23R.M. of Thompson (Miami) R.M. of Victoria	11/63	23(Cypress River)	10/63	21St. Pierre	9/62	31Ste-Rose-du-Lac	10/63	41Shoal Lake	6/61	32Somerset	10/61	18Treherne	11/62	17Winnipeg Beach	4/62	31Winnipeg	4/63	164Winnipeg	5/63	3,800Winnipeg Metro	1/63	75Winnipeg Metro	5/63	13Winnipeg Metro	8/63	81Winnipeg (North End)	7/63	280Winnipeg (North End)	8/63	255Winnipeg (North End)	10/63	179Winnipeg (North End)	10/63	4,727W innipeg-Charles wood	9/63	219Winnipeg-Charleswood (Ph.	3) 2/63	108Winnipeg-Charleswood	6/63	523Winnipeg-Charleswood	8/63	541Winnipeg-Charleswood	10/63	15W innipeg-Charleswood	10/63	111Winnipeg-Charleswood	10/63	253Winnipeg-Charleswood	12/63	156Winnipeg-Charleswood	1/64	492Winnipeg-St. James	10/63	98Winnipeg-St. James	10/63	88Winnipeg-St. James	10/63	228Total	13,380


HOUSING UNITS, D.E.W. LINE
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	How many crown-owned houses on the D.E.W. line are occupied at present by Eskimo employees?
2.	What is the average monthly rental charges including service charges, for a standard unit on the D.E.W. line?
3.	What has been the average increase in rental costs per unit for each year since 1958?
Questions
4.	Are regular inspections of these units made for purpose of repair and maintenance?
5.	How do these units compare in size and adequacy to those provided for federal government employees in the Arctic?
6.	How does the rental structure compare to that charged federal government employees in the Arctic for accommodation provided to them?


Arthur Laing: 1. Sixty six houses are occupied by Eskimo employees of the Federal Electric Corporation.
2.	$77 plus $5 rental for furnishings. (No service charges)
3.	In 1958 and 1959 the Eskimos were charged $20 a month for rent. In 1960 treasury board established the following rental structure for payment by the Eskimos. April 1, 1960, $45 a month; April 1, 1961, $55 a month; April 1, 1962, $65 a month; April 1, 1963, $77 a month.
4.	Yes.
5.	D.E.W. line houses have 528 square feet or 484 square feet. Houses occupied by federal employees range from 512 square feet to 1,300 square feet. All houses have been designed for Arctic conditions.
6.	Rents charged federal employees are somewhat lower but D.E.W. line employees have free food and free services.


PROCLAMATION OF SECTION 96A(2), INDIAN ACT
Mr. Howard: Are there any provinces in which section 96A (2) of the Indian Act has been brought into force and, if so, what are the names of each such province and, the date upon which the first proclamation was brought into effect in each such province?


Mr. Badanai:: Yes.
Province Date of 1st Proclamation
British Columbia Saskatchewan Manitoba Ontario
New Brunswick Nova Scotia
February 16, 1962 February 17, 1961 April 19, 1961 September 30, 1959 January 14, 1963 January 14, 1963


EMERGENCY HEALTH SERVICES DIRECTOR, PRINCE RUPERT, B.C.
Mr. Howard: 1.	What is the name and address of the emergency health services director for the Prince Rupert (PR2) zone and upon what date was he appointed?
2.	Has he compiled a list of the names, addresses and occupations of everyone in the zone whose services are to be reserved exclusively for emergency health purposes and, if so, upon what date or dates was this list so compiled and what names, addresses and occupations are listed thereon?
3.	Has he compiled a list of the available medical supplies and equipment to be found in (a) retail stores (b) physicians' offices and (c) hospitals and, if so, upon what date or dates was this list so compiled and what medical supplies and equipment are listed thereon?
4.	Has he compiled a list of the buildings which could be used for the care of the sick and injured

Questions
and, if so, upon what date or dates was this list so compiled and what is the name and address or location of each such building listed thereon and have any arrangements been made to reserve each building for the care of the sick and injured and, if so, what in detail, are those arrangements?


Miss LaMarsh:: As the emergency health services director for the Prince Rupert zone is a provincial official the information asked for should be sought from the province of British Columbia.


B.B.G. BRANCH OFFICE, MONTREAL
Mr. Marcoux: Since Montreal is the greatest French language television production centre in the world, will the B.B.G. have a branch office in the new building of the Department of Public Works in Montreal?


Maurice Lamontagne: The board has no plans to open such an office.


NORTHUMBERLAND CAUSEWAY MODEL
Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Were all available buidings, such as airplane hangars, whether government owned or not, in Prince Edward Island investigated as to their suitability for housing the proposed model of the Northumberland causeway?
2.	What building at Coldbrook, New Brunswick, was selected as a site for the model?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. Investigations of suitable buildings on Prince Edward Island included surplus federal and provincial owned buildings and airplane hangars; none were found to be acceptable.
2. All of building No. 1 in the former army base at Coldbrook with the exception of the northwest wing.


WHARF CONSTRUCTION, ROSSVILLE, MAN.
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 318
Mr. Siefanson:: When will tenders be called for the proposed wharf at Rossville, Manitoba?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: It is planned to advertise for tenders before the end of the present month.


PUBLIC BUILDING, ARBORG, MAN.
Mr. Siefanson: When will tenders be called for the proposed federal public building at Arborg, Manitoba?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Subject to the approval of funds by parliament it is anticipated that public tenders will be called this summer.


*TOM KENT, PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE  SALARY
Mr. Fisher: 1.	When did Mr. Tom Kent of the Prime Minister's staff get his last increase in salary?
2.	How much does he now receive?
3.	What have been the various salary levels of Mr. Kent in the public service?


Mr. Davis:: 1. December 1, 1963.
2. $25,000 per annum.

3. $20,000 for period May 1, to November 30, 1963. $25,000 from December 1, 1963 on the upward adjustment of salaries of senior members of the public service.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. Matheson: What moneys are currently being expended by federal treasury to provide or to subsidize pest control by chemical insecticides, and what land areas of Canada are thereby affected?
Return tabled.


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 6-Mr. Nielsen:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of "government contract regulations" together with any other documents relating to the awarding of contracts by the government for the supply of goods and/or services to the government.
He said: I telephoned the minister before coming into the house to thank him for producing P.C. 1954/1971, in substantial compliance with my motion. If he can give me the assurance that there are no other documents, in the words of the motion, relating to the awarding of contracts by the government for the supply of goods and/or services to the government, then I will be happy to accept this production he has made. I should like to know if there have been any amendments to this order in council or if there are other documents available.
Mr. Mcllraiih:: I shall be glad to take the hon. member's remarks into consideration and make a careful examination to ensure there have been no amendments.


Mr. Nielsen:: May I request that the motion stand?
Motion stands.


HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION, SHERBROOKE-SAINT JOHN
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 7-Mr. Lalulippe:
That an order of the house do issue for copies of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any officer of his department, on the one hand, and Dr. R. Cousineau, on the other concerning the construction of a highway between Sherbrooke and Saint John, New Brunswick.
Jean-Charles Cantin: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the hon. member for Compton-Frontenac is willing to withdraw notices of motions Nos. 7, 8 and 11 in view of the fact that the department has no correspondence with respect to this question.


Mr. Speaker:: Then, motions Nos. 7, 8 and 11 are withdrawn.

Orders discharged and motions withdrawn.


CONVERSION TO FRENCH OF STATION CJBC, TORONTO
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 13-Mr. Howe (Wellinglon-Huron):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams and other correspondence exchanged between the C.B.C., individuals and organizations, in connection with the conversion of the Toronto radio station CJBC from English speaking to French speaking.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this with the Secretary of State, and I am quite willing to let the motion stand.
Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Motion stands.


LOANS TO STUDENTS
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 29-Mr. Langlois:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the Prime Minister or any minister of the cabinet and Mr. Jean Lesage, premier of the province of Quebec or Mr. Gerin-Lajoie, minister of youth, concerning interest free loans to university students, as mentioned in the speech from the throne.
Mr. Boutin:: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the hon. member for Megantic, I would ask that notices of motions numbered 29 to 52 inclusive be allowed to stand until next sitting.


Mr. Speaker:: Accordingly motions 29 to 52 inclusive stand.
Motions stand.
REMOVAL OF ARMS AND AMMUNITION Motion No. 53-Mr. Bell:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, memoranda or directives made by the minister and/or the Department of National Defence regarding the rounding up of arms and/or ammunition.


Mr. Hellyer:: Mr. Speaker, we would be agreeable to producing letters from persons in the country to the minister or to the department relating to the subject matter here, and the replies, but we would not be in a position to produce departmental documents. I think that is in accordance with the custom.


Mr. Bell:: Mr. Speaker, the minister very kindly called me on this, but as it was the directives I wanted, I feel there is a good
Motions for Papers
argument to be made why these documents could be made public, and I therefore wish to have this motion stood under standing order 47 and transferred by the clerk to the order paper for debate.


Mr. Speaker:: Transferred for debate.


DREDGING OF ST. MAURICE RIVER CHANNEL
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 54-Mr. Caouelle:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and documents exchanged between the Department of Transport, the Department of Public Works, the city of Trois-Rivieres, the contractors and intermediaries concerning the dredging of the St. Maurice channel, the development of a berthing area and of a mooring basin, from January 1, 1962 to April 8, 1963.
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: We have no objection, Mr. Speaker.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 55-Mr. Horner (Acadia):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, reports, briefs and memoranda, and any replies thereto between the federal government and any of its departments and the province of Alberta concerning A.R.D.A. since December 20, 1963.
Mr. Beer:: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that this motion requests correspondence, etc., between the federal government and any of its departments with the province of Alberta, it should be dealt with by the Secretary of State. So far as the Department of Agriculture is concerned, the motion is acceptable subject to the consent of the province of Alberta being obtained to table the correspondence, reports, and other documents in question.


Mr. Siewart:: Mr. Speaker, in so far as the
Secretary of State is concerned, the motion is acceptable subject to the usual reservations regarding consent.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is adopted subject to the usual reservations of the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 56-Mr. Laiulippe:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams or other documents exchanged since January 1, 1963 between the Minister of Transport or any official of his department, and the "Compagnie de navigation nord-sud" or any of its reprsentatives, relative to the ferry service between Pointe au Pere and Baie Comeau and subsidies relating thereto.
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 57-Mr. Howard:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all regulations, or letters or communications relating to, or directed, to employees in public service of Canada, who are employed at Terrace, B.C. and relating to the question of seniority being or no longer being the determining factor in the scheduling of annual leave.
Mr. Knowles:: With regard to the motions in the name of the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Howard), I would be glad to move them on his behalf, but if there is any question about them, then perhaps they could stand.


John B. Stewart: Stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Accordingly motions Nos. 57 to 67 inclusive, in the name of the hon. member for Skeena, stand.
Motions stand.


CANADA'S RIGHT TO USE COLUMBIA RIVER WATER
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 68-Mr. Pascoe:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams etc. since April 22, 1963 between the Saskatchewan rivers development association and the Prime Minister of Canada concerning the provision of full protection of Canada's rights to the use of the Columbia river waters in any agreement with the United States.
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the motion is acceptable subject to the consent of the provinces concerned.


Mr. Speaker:: Motion adopted subject to the reservations of the right hon. Prime Minister.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 69-Mr. Langlois:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Prime Minister or any minister of the government and any universities of the province of Quebec, regarding grants between December 1962 and March 1, 1964.
Pierre-André Boutin: I would ask the house that this motion be allowed to stand.

Motion stands.


ARDA OPERATIONS, QUEBEC
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 70-Mr. Latulippe:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house copies of any letters, telegrams, documents or other communications exchanged between the Minister of Agriculture, the employees of his department or the agricultural rehabilitation and development administration (ARDA) and the ministers, employees or representatives of the Quebec government on any matter relating to ARDA since the beginning of that program.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 71-Mr. Baldwin:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of the order in council removing Mr. Thomas Maher from the chairmanship of the national gallery, and a copy of all correspondence, letters and/or other messages that passed between the Secretary of State and Mr. Maher in regard thereto.
John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, there is no objection to producing such letters, correspondence, or other messages, provided there are any such.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house, under the provisions of standing order 26, in order to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely the substantial rise of 2.4 in one year in the cost of living, which is imposing an unbearable burden on Canadians in every walk of life, particularly those with modest salaries and large families.
The cost of living index in February is a record 2.4 above February of last year. This imposes a terrible burden on all Canadians in middle and lower ranges in the cost of housing, clothing and accommodation. It has reached a point where something must be done. The government obviously intends to do nothing.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The government has contributed to the cost of living by additional taxes, such as the 11 per cent sales tax which is being passed on in higher prices. They have produced the largest spending program in peacetime history. They are increasing taxes. Meanwhile the burden of federal, provincial and municipal expenses-


Mr. Speaker:: Order please. I recognize the effort the hon. member is making in English, and he is to be commended for it, but may I suggest he is arguing his case. If he could tell me exactly why the house should be adjourned, and give me the reason he is requesting that the house should be now adjourned, it would be more to the point.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I think it is important to give the details, and that is the reason I would appreciate very much receiving the attention of the house, particularly from the Liberal side. Meanwhile the burden of federal, provincial and municipal expenses-


Hon. J. Walson MacNaughl (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, I direct your attention to standing order 26(1) which says that a motion such as this should be brought up immediately after questions.


John George Diefenbaker: Well, it was.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The point taken by the Solicitor General is correct, but the fault, I am afraid, is the Chair's; because the hon. member spoke to me and I told him that this should come up immediately after questions. But we have had written questions today, and we shall have verbal questions shortly. I refer hon. members to standing order 26, paragraph (1) which says:
Leave to make a motion for the adjournment of the house when made for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance must be asked for after "Questions" on Mondays and Wednesdays-
In the circumstances, however, the Chair having advised the hon. member at his request when he should raise the matter, I think he should be allowed to make his points.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Meanwhile the burden of federal, provincial, and municipal expenses, now estimated at 32 per cent of the national income, falls upon the same people, the lower and middle class Canadians who are trying to bring up and educate their children and who have to pay increased costs for food, clothing and transportation.
This government has shown a callous disregard for the plight of ordinary Canadians. Its members have ignored unemployment, imposed high taxes and deflated the value of the dollar by flooding the country with new money as the result of an agreement they made with the United States. They have created the most terrible inflation since they were last in office in 1955.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. If I understand the hon. member correctly, he wishes an adjournment of the house under standing order 26 in order to discuss the question of the cost of living. Is that the point?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: If you can give me just one minute, Mr. Speaker, I think you will see that this is an important matter, an emergency situation, and I would ask you to permit me to complete my brief remarks. Ordinary Canadians are being required to carry the burden-[DOT]


Mr. Gordon:: On a point of order-


Mr. Speaker:: The Minister of Finance, on a point of order.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Surely the hon. member should not be permitted to make statements which are completely exaggerated and untrue.
Motion for Adjournment


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I understand that the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm wishes to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 in order to discuss the question of the cost of living. Now, if there are any other members who wish to advise the Chair I would appreciate hearing them, but as far as the hon. member is concerned he is really entering into the merits of the question, and this is not the time at which to do so.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I can complete my remarks in a few sentences, Mr. Speaker.
If the government will do nothing, then parliament must take action. That is why we were sent to Ottawa. That is why I ask for the adjournment of the house to discuss this urgent and important matter affecting every Canadian.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think the motion is difficult to deal with. Perhaps I might first of all make reference to the time at which this matter should be raised, just to keep the record straight. We have already discussed that point, but if the hon. member would refer to Beauchesne's fourth edition, citation 100, section 2, he will find it says:
The definite matter of urgent public importance for the discussion of which the adjournment of the house may be moved under standing order 26, must be so pressing that public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention.
After discussing a case which arose in 1932 the author says:
The Speaker ruled that the motion should not be allowed, because he did not think the matter mentioned in the member's statement was of recent occurrence nor so urgent that the proceedings of the house should be halted so that it may be discussed.
Then the citation goes on, in section 8, to cite a former Speaker as saying:
I do not think that under the standing order of 1882, a motion on a subject of this kind, having such a very wide scope, was ever contemplated. What I think was contemplated was an occurrence of some sudden emergency, either in home or in foreign affairs.
It seems to me that a rise or fall in the cost of living is not of such recent occurrence as to be considered as constituting an emergency. Furthermore, it has been announced that on Friday of this week there will be an interim supply motion and supplementary estimates may be discussed. Thus, in the circumstances, I regret I do not see the sudden emergency or the great national importance which must form the basis of a motion to adjourn the normal proceedings of the house at this time in order to discuss the question raised by the hon. member.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I think this is a very important matter to all Canadians across this country,

Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. Speaker. The people are complaining against this government, which has made mistake after mistake since it came to power. That is why I appeal your decision, and-


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is now discussing a decision, and there is only one way in which to discuss a decision. I hope, however, that hon. members will accept the decision.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I appeal from your ruling, seconded by my hon. friend from Grey-Bruce-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: May I call the hon. member's attention once again to Beauchesne, from which it appears that in the past the decisions of the Chair on motions of this type have very rarely, if at all in recent times, been the subject of appeal. I cannot deny the hon. member's right to appeal but I suggest that in the circumstances, for the reasons given by the Chair to show that his motion is not well founded, an appeal should not be taken.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I bow to your ruling.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) whether between now and March 26-I think that is when he said the adjournment for the Easter recess would take place-the committee on defence will be set up.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I hope it can be set up before the adjournment. We are still waiting for the lists from some of the groups in the house.


John George Diefenbaker: If the lists come in, will the committee on defence be set up between now and the 26th? The Prime Minister has indicated, by a vertical movement of the head, that this is so. I would ask him, then, when will this white paper, which has been promised for weeks, be produced? I am obliged to ask him about it because I have asked the minister of defence various questions and I have not been able to get any answer.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It will be produced shortly and made available to the members of the committee when it is set up. I am sure all members of the committee and all members of the house will find it of great interest.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In all honesty will he inform the House of Commons whether the reappointment of the special committee on national defence is being postponed until after the Easter recess because he is not able to produce his white paper before the Easter recess?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, that is not the reason. I think the most urgent reason at the present time is the amount of parliamentary time available for the business to be undertaken between now and Easter. I do hope that the committee can be set up during that period.


Harold Edward Winch: After or before?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I hope before.


An hon. Member:: You know it will not.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I do not know. It will depend on the progress that is made.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. May I now ask the Minister of National Defence whether the white paper on defence will be tabled in the House of Commons prior to the Easter recess?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister answered that question earlier this afternoon.


Harold Edward Winch: You answer it now.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: May I say that I certainly hope it will be. Every effort is being made to have it prepared for distribution before the Easter recess.


John George Diefenbaker: Prepared, but not produced, though.



REPORTED COMMENT ON CONCLUSIONS OF DEFENCE COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, on March 6 the hon. member for Greenwood asked me to comment on the propriety of a letter said to have been sent to senior air force officers by the chief of the air staff, having in mind what the hon. member described as the salutary tradition of civilian control over the military. I am sorry that I was unable to reply to this question sooner but the chief of the air staff has been out of the country and I did not have the opportunity of discussing the matter with him until yesterday.
I have determined that this letter in no way set a precedent. It is not unusual for

service chiefs to send out letters to officers on a restricted internal circulation basis, with the object of attempting to clarify, from the service aspect, matters of public discussion directly related to the military. Motivation for this particular letter was related to morale, and in particular the feeling held by some members of the air force that some newspaper comment referring to the force was not considered completely objective.
I do not propose to comment on the editorial content of the letter. In respect of the wider issue, however, I have satisfied myself that the chief of the air staff was quite within his rights in sending it to his officers, and the matter of civil control of the military is not in question.


Thomas Miller Bell: I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence a supplementary question. If the minister approves of a letter of a policy nature being sent out by the chiefs of staff of the R.C.A.F. to senior officers, why will he not approve of producing the letter of a similar nature that he sent to the chiefs of staff?



SASKATOON


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of Nalional Defence):: Yesterday the hon. member for Rosthern asked if any civilian employees at the air station at Saskatoon had been recently discharged from employment, and if so what steps the government had taken to provide alternative employment for these people.
In reply, I can inform the hon. member that there have been no civilian lay-offs at R.C.A.F. station Saskatoon up to the present time. However, I should add that a total of approximately 36 employees will be laid off after March 31, 1964.
All these employees have been interviewed by personnel officers of the department to determine their availability for transfer beyond the immediate locality, in the event that they cannot be placed locally. All employees have been interviewed and registered by the national employment service. The civil service commission and government departments in the Saskatoon area have been provided with particulars affecting all employees scheduled for lay-off.
I can assure my hon. friend that every effort is being made to find other employment for these persons who are scheduled for lay-off, and these efforts will continue after the station closes down. The other employees for whom employment cannot be found at this time will be placed on an official lay-off list and
Inquiries of the Ministry then given preference in appointment to future vacancies with the government service.


Mr. Gerald A. Regan (Halifax):: As a supplementary question to the associate minister, in relation to the cut-backs announced earlier this week would the minister investigate the possibility of having the proposed Blandford radio station facilities located at Beaverbank radar station so that the facilities existing there could be used for this development by the navy?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Mr. Speaker, this has already been done.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour. It relates to the two day conference of ministers of labour of the provinces of this country in which discussions were carried on concerning certain proposed labour legislation which the federal government anticipates putting before parliament. Can the minister make a report on these discussions and say whether there was general agreement with respect to these matters?


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, as the government indicated in the speech from the throne, it is intended to take action this session on certain labour standards. These proposals in general were discussed at the conference of the labour ministers. It was not sought at the conference to ask for agreement on these matters; what was sought were the views of the provinces.
I think I can say there was general agreement at the conference on the necessity for progressive labour standards in Canada and a recognition that there was a gap in the federal legislation, in so far as standards are concerned, which does not exist in provincial jurisdiction.
May I say, finally, that the provinces undertook a full examination of the possible effect within their respective jurisdictions of any action taken by the federal parliament with regard to standards.


Mr. Heward Graffley (Brome-Missisquoi):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Was the question of designated areas raised at this particular conference?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker.


Erik Nielsen: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. It is directed to the Minister of Labour and is based on certain constitutional provisions of the law of this country, particularly that

Inquiries of the Ministry which guarantees to the Yukon legislative council exclusive jurisdiction in matters affecting labour. Was there at this conference any representation of the elected representatives of the Yukon legislative council; if not, can the minister explain why?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: There was no representation from the Yukon, Mr. Speaker. It has not been the practice for representatives of the Yukon to attend federal-provincial conferences-though I may say that the Prime Minister has written to the provincial premiers with respect to the establishment of future policy on this particular matter.


Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
I wonder whether the minister could tell the house if the press reports are correct when they state that the provincial representatives at this conference objected to the proposal of $1.25 an hour minimum wage; and if so, is the government taking this into consideration?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the literal answer to that question is no.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Labour say how soon the proposed federal labour legislation will be introduced?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker. The matter is on the agenda for this session and I cannot go beyond that at the present time.


Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Labour indicate to the house whether the question of workmen's compensation was discussed with the provincial ministers of labour?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker.

On the orders of the day;


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour.
Did the interprovincial conference on labour which ended in Ottawa yesterday discuss the problem of a very high unemployment in Quebec and in the maritime provinces, and if not, when will a conference be called on that matter?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the subject of unemployment was not listed on the agenda of this conference; nor was it raised by any of the participating provinces, no doubt because of the improved employment situation 

in Canada at the present time. The provinces last summer had indicated their wish to discuss with the federal government the problem of unemployment, and it was listed on the agenda of the last federal-provincial conference, at which time discussion of this subject took place.


Marcel Lessard: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Labour.
Is the minister of the opinion that the steps he has taken since he took over the department have been sufficient to fight unemployment and that he can now rest on his laurels?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I think the facts indicate that the special measures introduced had a very substantial effect on the employment situation in Canada. Many thousands of additional jobs were created through these programs. Naturally there is an amount of unemployment in the country, but it is not the intention of the government to relax until every person who is willing and able to work has a job.


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. While I am not sure whether this matter was on the agenda, might I ask the minister whether there has been any discussion among the labour ministers relating to the establishment of a secretariat or similar body for labour matters in the federal-provincial field, similar to the one set up in the resources field? I was wondering whether there was any general discussion of this matter.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker. This is the first conference of labour ministers held in Canada since 1946. I thought that was a good start, although presumably for future meetings more formal arrangements might be concluded by way of a secretariat. But there was no discussion of this matter at the meeting.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the crisis that threatens the authority of the United Nations, and in view of the fact that Canadians generally would welcome any statement which would indicate that

Canada is prepared to do its utmost to maintain the prestige of the United Nations, is the minister prepared to make a more firm and definite statement than he made yesterday to the effect that Canada will send troops to Cyprus to be part of a peace keeping United Nations force, in the event that the conditions set forth by the Prime Minister are complied with?
Hon, Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition sent me a note a few moments ago and I think I should, in responding to this question, indicate that he had in mind a question along these lines. In answer I would say, as I have already said, there should be no doubt. Canada does not intend to shirk its responsibilities under the charter of the United Nations. We continue to be ready to participate in a truly international United Nations peace keeping force in Cyprus.
So far as Canada is concerned, responsibility for financing our force is not an obstacle. While the financing of the proposed force is not a key question in so far as this country is concerned, it is a key factor in respect of other potential contributing nations. It is regrettable that a consideration of this nature should have such a central place in determining whether or not the United Nations is able to meet its peace keeping responsibilities in situations where a failure to act could have such dire consequences. Nevertheless, that is the main remaining obstacle to the creation of a multinational United Nations force. All the secretary general's efforts are now being concentrated on the creation of a fund to be raised by voluntary contribution, from which could be met those costs which certain potential contributor states feel unable to meet from their national resources.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. May I take it from the minister's remarks that if the other nations which have been asked to contribute forces can be satisfied in respect of the financial costs involved and that difficulty is removed, Canada will be prepared to send troops to be part of a multinational United Nations peace keeping force?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, mine is not quite a supplementary question but is in the same vein. Could I ask a question of the right hon. Prime Minister. Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to the fact that a bill has been introduced in the Swedish parliament to establish by law the organization of an armed force to be available for the United Nations
Inquiries of the Ministry for peace keeping purposes, and that two other Scandinavian countries are going to do the same thing within the next two months? If so, has the Prime Minister considered the introduction into this house of a bill smilar in principle, and also co-ordinating our peace keeping force for the United Nations with those Scandinavian countries which want to do this by law?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, no such bill is required, because that is the situation in regard to this country at the present time. This situation existed under the previous government as well as this government, namely that a force would be available, trained and equipped, for United Nations service. Perhaps my hon. friend will recall that at the last assembly of the United Nations the Canadian delegation made a plea for other countries to take the same steps; if they would follow the example of those members of the United Nations who had taken this action, we could get together and work out a standby United Nations force on a broader than national basis. The Scandinavian states are now working this out.
My hon. friend has mentioned the bill being introduced in the Swedish legislature. We have already been in touch with these Scandinavian states and I hope we can get in touch with other countries that will take the same action. Then we will have a United Nations force ready for the kind of action that is required, for instance, in Cyprus today, and we will not be faced with the difficulties with which we are faced today.


Harold Edward Winch: A supplementary question to the Prime Minister. I and all hon. members very much appreciate what he has just said. In view of what the Prime Minister has said, may I now ask whether he, his government and the Minister of National Defence are now in consultation with the Scandinavian countries with regard to this arrangement, so there will be efficiency and co-ordination on the utilization of our armed forces?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, we have been in consultation with them for a good many weeks on that point.


ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES REQUEST FOR INTERIM REPORT BY ROYAL COMMISSION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State.
Can the minister tell us whether the commission on biculturalism and bilingualism will

Inquiries of the Ministry submit an interim report now that the visits to the provincial premiers are completed?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe this commission has to submit an interim report, but I shall find out from the commission.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Secretary of State.
Could the minister tell us when he expects that the commission will have completed its work and that a final report will be available?


Maurice Lamontagne: Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, I cannot give any specific date to the house.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State.
Since the minister is familiar with the programming of the C.B.C., he is aware that its French network is putting on programs entitled "Opinion publique", "Actualite pub-lique", "Affaires publiques", "Conference de presse". The parties represented in this house are not invited very often to take part in these programs. But as soon as a Canadian makes a trip to Russia, China, or Cuba, the C.B.C. immediately interviews him so he can tell us what is going on there. And yet, people do not even know what is going on here at home. Is the Secretary of State in a position to order the C.B.C. to attach a little bit more importance to Canadian affairs and a little bit less to what is going on abroad?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to give instructions to the C.B.C.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State.
Is it the minister's intention to suggest- not to impose, but suggest only-to the C.B.C., that panels or discussion groups dealing with public affairs in Ottawa should include some Ottawa parliamentary correspondents instead of people who know practically nothing of what is happening here, in the House of Commons?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to pass on to the C.B.C. management the views of the hon. member.


POSSIBLE LEGAL ACTION BY MEMBER FOR YORK-HUMBER
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Auguste Choquette (Loibiniere):: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. A while ago I wanted to approach the Secretary of State to ask him a question but he was so preoccupied that he could not listen to me. I wanted to ask him this. In view of the unusual and incomprehensible proceedings the hon. member for York-Humber (Mr. Cowan) wants to take against the C.B.C., does the minister intend to suggest to the said corporation to secure immediately expert legal advice in order to discourage him?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to discuss that matter with the Minister of Justice. [Text]


DEBATE BETWEEN MEMBER FOR LAPOINTE AND MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask a question, but I shall make it a question of privilege. Yesterday, as can be seen on page 730 of Hansard, the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville (Mr. Dupuis), Minister without Portfolio, made a false assertion, thus misleading the house, when he said:
I have never refused to appear on a T.V. debate with the hon. member for Lapointe.
Mr. Speaker, after inquiry, we can now state positively that the Minister without Portfolio was invited to take part in a T.V. debate with the hon. member for Lapointe, and that he refused to do so.


Hon. Yvon Dupuis (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, if one person is lying in this house, it is the one who has just accused others of lying.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. That is not an answer-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not believe personal disputes between members, even if they are on a semi-friendly basis, are the concern of this house at this time.


SUGGESTED ADVANTAGE TO SELECTED COMPANIES IN MARKETS ABROAD
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the

Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is it the policy of the minister and the government in some way to select certain Canadian companies and promote the sale of their products abroad, thus giving these companies very unfair advantages, both financial and otherwise, over their competitors?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I find myself quite unable to answer this question because I do not know to which companies the hon. gentleman is referring.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. First of all, may I draw to the minister's attention a pamphlet put out under his name by his department and expensively reproduced, which advertises the specific products of certain companies abroad. These companies are well known to be competitive and have many competitors. In particular, may I draw to the minister's attention an advertisement for Black Diamond cheese. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that this is a product which has-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Will the hon. member please put his question.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: With great respect to Your Honour, the Minister of Trade and Commerce said that he was not aware of the matters to which I was referring. This particular pamphlet is prepared apparently for the Canadian exhibit at Scotland's food exhibition which is to take place very shortly. There is a whole series of companies listed here. I will not name them all but they are highly competitive companies in Canada and they are being given an unfair advantage by being given expensive advertising at the expense of the taxpayer.


Mitchell William Sharp: I do not think it is very difficult to understand the nature of the advertising which is going on. These are companies which express the wish to participate, and pay the expenses of participating, in this fair. Therefore we felt it necessary, our purpose being to promote Canadian trade, not only to give them a chance to participate in the fair but to make known to the buyers in the area where they are exhibiting the possibilities of buying their products.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: A supplementary question. Were all of the companies which make products similar to the ones advertised in the pamphlet which I have in my hand approached by the Department of Trade and Commerce and given an opportunity to participate in this enterprise?


Mitchell William Sharp: Yes, Mr. Speaker. To the extent that this is physically possible we make
Inquiries of the Ministry known the opportunity, and urge every company in the country to participate in these fairs, just as did the preceding government in the past and just as did my predecessor in office.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce further to some questions I asked earlier concerning the Scotland food exhibition. I recall that in his reply to one of my questions the minister said that all branches of industries concerned were invited to participate in this exhibition. May I ask the minister if the Ontario cheese producers association was invited to take part in this food fair?


Mitchell William Sharp: I will be happy to ascertain the answer to that question.


REPORTED REQUEST FOR REDUCTION OF EXPORT QUOTAS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is it correct, as reported in a Tokyo dispatch yesterday, that the Canadian government has requested Japan to reduce its quotas on a number of commodities exported to Canada as far as 1964 is concerned?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, negotiations are now proceeding with the Japanese government on the voluntary restraints which have been in effect for some years now. I do not think it would be appropriate for me to add anything to that at the present time.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. In doing so I have to refer to the document I have before me, which is a letter from the national white Americans party giving a post office box number in Atlanta, Georgia. It also gives the number of a post office box, box 431, in Scarborough, Ontario. Part of this letter reads as follows:
To avoid delay we are enclosing a membership card to the national white Americans party. All you need do is sign it and you are an official member. Then, drop us a line to inform us of your decision and an organizer will visit you to explain our activity here in Toronto.

Inquiries of the Ministry
It ends:
We are moving ahead

We have a positive, active program. Truth is on our side hut to win we need your help. Help us distribute a million antiJewish leaflets during 1964. Let us hear from you real soon so we can start laying out our plans for the next election.
That part I am not interested in.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: I am interested to learn whether the mails are being used for dissemination of this poisonous stuff that is going out? Is a Colonel-is it Fly?


An hon. Member:: Bligh.


John George Diefenbaker: Fly or Fry-the national organizer, receiving mail at post office box 431? What investigation has been made by the Post Office Department? Does the minister regard the distribution of stuff like this as appropriate for the mails of Canada?


Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in answer to a question asked by the right hon. gentleman I stated that I would prefer not to answer that specific question, but I can say to the right hon. gentleman that the post office box in question was closed during the term of office of my predecessor.


John George Diefenbaker: What date?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: On January 13. At the same time, however, a forwarding address was given in St. Catharines, Ontario and that was closed on March 3 of this year. It might have been March 5. It is on the 3rd or 4th or 5th of March.


John George Diefenbaker: What happens to mail sent to box 431? The letter I have is dated in February, 1964. When replies are received for this so-called colonel, what is done with the letters? What disposal is made of them? I should like the minister to tell us.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question, I mentioned to my right hon. friend yesterday that the matter had been referred to the Department of Justice and we were working closely with that department. I think the matter is well in hand with regard to letters since the box was closed. I would prefer not to go any further at this time.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, no one wants to interfere with the administration of justice, but are these letters being gathered by the Post Office Department and kept by that department or what disposal is being made of them? The activity still goes on. Letters are still coming out in the last few days from this post office address. What happens


to letters from those who decide to join in this so-called crusade against the Jew and the coloured man?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, all I can say
is that I am surprised that there have been any letters coming out in the last few days because the box has been closed since January 13, and the forwarding address in Hamilton has been cancelled since March 3. Therefore I fail to see how any letters could have come out since March 3. If there are any since March 3, I have not heard of them. If there have been any since the date when the forwarding address was cancelled I will be glad to look into the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: Prior to March 3 there was a forwarding address. What was done with mail directed to the Scarborough post office between the date in January to which the minister referred and March 3? What was done with that mail? Was it forwarded?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I am afraid I will have to look into that matter and give my hon. friend an answer on a later occasion.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I assured the right hon. gentleman earlier today that I would give him an answer to his question, and I think it might save the time of the house, as well as further questions tomorrow if I made a statement. I do so with some hesitation. The person who rented the box in question is a 19 year old youth. We have, through the cooperation of his father who threatened to commit suicide to get the box closed, succeeded in getting the box closed. I hope that is the end of this matter and of this box.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosihern):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. It arises out of the statement he has frequently made that the Canada pension plan will be proceeded with, with all haste. In view of the unanimous support for this measure in the House of Commons, why has the government delayed the bringing of the bill before parliament by having it preceded by a resolution, which I understand is unnecessary with a bill of this nature?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have the hon. gentleman's assurance that there will be unanimous support for this bill. I can assure him that we would not have preceded it with a resolution if we had not considered that to be necessary under the rules.


Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hai):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the announcement that the budget will be brought down next week, the subsequent budget debate and the fact that we will be recessing about March 26, is the Prime Minister going to keep the promise he made that the bill will be introduced during this month?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Edward Nasserden: A supplementary question for the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that no money from the treasury of Canada is involved in this measure, why is it necessary to precede it by a resolution?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the administration of the plan, if and when it is accepted by parliament, will of course involve administrative expenditures.


Edward Nasserden: Mr. Speaker, in the resolution it states-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This is becoming an argument.


Edward Nasserden: I rise on a question of personal privilege affecting all the members of this house. A short time ago in answer to a question of mine the Prime Minister intimated that the administration costs of the Canada pension plan would be borne by the taxpayers. The resolution states explicitly that this shall come from the contributions of employees, employers and self-employed persons. In view of that fact, I believe the Prime Minister misled the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not see any question of personal privilege. This is a personal dispute, or a matter of interpretation between the hon. member and the Prime Minister.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is not a matter of personal dispute, it is a matter of fact. The fact is that it will cost some money to get this plan into operation, as my hon. friend must know. Afterwards, when the plan is in operation, the expenses will be borne by the fund. However, for some time it will cost money from the treasury, and when money is expended from the treasury, a resolution is required.
I am sure that as an expert in parliamentary procedure the hon. member realizes this.



INQUIRY AS TO DELIVERY QUOTAS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce based on the latest report of the Canadian 20220-51
Inquiries of the Ministry wheat board which shows that wheat delivery quotas on the prairies this year are much lower than they were at the same time last year. Can the minister now answer the question I addressed to him two days ago regarding the many empty grain cars standing at shipping points in central Saskatchewan?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, may I say first that although the quotas are somewhat below last year, deliveries are a good deal higher and the reason is, of course, that there was much more grain to be delivered under the quotas. If the hon. member will look at the figures he will see that deliveries of all grains, and deliveries of wheat, are substantially higher than they were at this time a year ago.
I did not dispute the facts put forward by the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre. I just said that deliveries, which are a different matter, are very much higher than they were at this time a year ago.


Mr. C. O. Cooper (Roselown-Biggar):: In
so far as the quota system in Saskatchewan is concerned, I should like to inform the Minister of Trade and Commerce that we have no points on a seven or eight bushel quota. Last year Saskatchewan had 338 points on a seven or eight bushel quota, whereas this year we have no points on that quota, yet the minister says the quotas are higher!



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
SHIPPING POINTS On the orders of the day:
Mitchell William Sharp: On Monday the hon. member for Rosthern asked me why there were cars standing empty at shipping points near Saskatoon. The Canadian wheat board tells me that the railways have, in the areas tributary to the lakehead, a number of box cars, some loaded, awaiting the availability of space at the lakehead. The movement to the lakehead will be restricted until the opening of navigation on the great lakes. The retention of cars in the west is associated with the efforts of the railways to ensure maximum movement as soon as navigation opens.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Henri Lafulippe (Complon-Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to

Inquiries of the Ministry the Minister of Finance. Would the minister tell the house whether the rates of interest are reasonable in Canada or whether they contribute to the increase in the cost of living?

Kon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance): We pay just as low an interest rate as we can get away with.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. H. A. Thomas (Middlesex West):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the government given consideration to admitting additional Chinese refugees to Canada from Hong Kong under the refugee program initiated in 1962? If not, is it willing to consider such action?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am grateful to my hon. friend for having indicated his intention to ask me this question. In reply, I would inform him that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Tremblay), in carrying out a suggestion made to the house by his predecessor last December, is going to Hong Kong in the very near future on a fact-finding mission relating to this and other aspects of immigration from that area. Any further statement of government policy on this matter should, I think, await his return.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: I have a question for the minister of northern affairs. Now that arrangements have been made for the Canadian professional golfers association to hold a series of matches in August at the Cape Breton highlands national park, and such matches are to be filmed by the C.B.C., will the minister give consideration to the immediate construction of the new golf clubhouse, plans for which were cancelled last year after tenders had been submitted?
At the same time, I should like, Mr. Speaker, if you would give me permission, on behalf of the Minister of Labour whose riding comprises part of the park, to extend an invitation to all hon. members and anyone within earshot to visit Cape Breton during this summer and have a good vacation. [Mr. Latulippe.l


Arthur Laing: The hon. member's question relates to a proposal to build a new golf clubhouse at Ingonish Beach. It was decided at that time that the normal seasonal patronage of the clubhouse did not warrant the investment of some $130,000. I regretfully tell him that situation still exists. He has related his request to the fact that there are going to be 12 outstanding Canadian golfers there in August, I think August 17 to 22, and that these matches are going to be televised and the films shown next winter as a Canadian C.B.C. championship series. I congratulate the people of Nova Scotia upon obtaining these matches, but they are for a very short period of five days. I assure my hon. friend that such temporary arrangements as may be necessary for the gallery will be taken care of by the park authorities.



REDISTRIBUTION


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, March 10, consideration of the motion of Mr. Pickers-gill (for the Prime Minister) for the second reading of Bill No. C-72, to provide for the establishment of electoral boundaries commissions to report upon the re-adjustment of the representation of the provinces in the House of Commons and to provide for the readjustment of such representation in accordance therewith.
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: 
Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Monimorency):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out immediately to the hon. member for Northumberland (Miss Jewett) that I shall be brief. I merely wish to set out a few of the underlying principles which should govern our conduct in the establishment of electoral boundaries commissions.
I know that in theory everyone seems more or less in favour of the democratic principle of representation by population and that we all want every man's vote to have the same weight as that of any other Canadian, taking into consideration a certain margin of tolerance.
That is a democratic principle which should be respected but I feel that we should also take into account other institutional considerations-if I may use that word-and by that I mean the occupation of the voters and the geographical and topographical characteristics of the ridings.
In my case, I represent a rather heavily populated riding which, fortunately, consists of people from different walks of life. It is a riding which could be called semi-urban and semi-rural, which gives one the opportunity to know the opinion of people from rural and urban areas.
Obviously, the point of view of farmers is not quite the same as that of the factory workers or the people employed in cities and towns. Their problems are not the same and they should be able to rely on members, maybe in lesser number than those representing urban areas, but anyway quite representative of their area.
If we take, for instance, the city of Montreal, which is very heavily populated and represented at present by 21 members. We see that the voters are not interested too much in politics.
It may no doubt be said they are not interested because they do not feel they have enough members. That may be true. But looking upon the past, we realize rather that the bigger the cities, the bigger the communities, the smaller the interest of people in public affairs and the greater their feeling of remoteness from the administration of democracy.
That is why, despite all the respect we may possibly have for the principles of democracy,
I believe this peculiarity of the people living in urban centres should be taken into account.
I should also like to make a brief comment on section 51 of the British North

Electoral Boundaries Commissions America Act. Taking that section as it appeared in 1867, we realize that, according to the spirit of the constitution-perhaps not in the spirit which moved Lower Canada at the time to grant that privilege to the province of Quebec or Lower Canada, but in the spirit in which Lower Canada accepted this condition-the number of members for the province of Quebec was set at 65. Since then, some changes have been made, so that, now, the province of Quebec is entitled to 75 constituencies.
I think we should revert to that spirit which inspired the enactment of the British North America Act and decide that the province of Quebec should continue to have at least 75 constituencies, irrespective of the total population of the province and irrespective of the ratio between the population of the province of Quebec and that of Canada and the other provinces. And this for several reasons, especially nowadays when we speak about bilingualism, the French fact and the two nations forming the country.
As the province of Quebec really represents the French element in Canada, I believe it should be assured to have never less than 75 constituencies, should the number of members be kept at 265, and the bill makes no mention of a change in that regard. In my opinion, as long as the province remains within confederation, it would be a good safeguard for Quebec to have a guaranteed minimum representation of 75 members.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to say one last word concerning the choice of the people who will sit on each of the provincial electoral boundaries commissions. I am sure there must be a non-partisan way of making appointments. The hon. members for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) and for Fraser Valley (Mr. Patterson) also spoke about this yesterday.
Each submitted proposals which could be acceptable but which would entail some difficulties in the constitutional field or as regards federal and provincial responsibilities.
If everyone would try and find some means to remove any possible political interference in the selection of the commissioners, I feel that we would be making real progress.
It should not be forgotten that parties change. We hope that in a more or less near future, we will have new parties instead of the two old ones. But they will be liable to change. Consequently, if a party resorts to political expediency, when another party comes into power, the latter will profit by it.
All things considered, it is surely possible to find an adequate method of appointing commissioners entirely free from any political affiliation.
[Mr. Marcoux.l
Mr. Speaker, I shall say no more for now. We shall have an opportunity to deal further with this bill when it is studied in committee. But I wanted to point out to the house in particular certain principles which should guide our discussions on this bill, because they represent logical and justifiable ideas for which every one of us, under a democratic system, will have to fight in order to preserve them.


Miss Pauline Jeweii (Northumberland):: As
has been said by others who have taken part in this debate, the bill before us now is one of tremendous significance. It will, undoubtedly, in future years be regarded as one of two historic landmarks in the history of redrawing constituency boundaries in this country.
The first landmark, at least in my opinion, was in 1903 when the government of that day under Sir Wilfrid Laurier decided to refer this task to an all-party committee of the House of Commons, rather than have the boundaries drawn by the cabinet and pushed through the house in the same way as ordinary bills.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Are you sure it was a change?


Pauline Jewett: Yes. There had been, prior to 1903, three redistributions, those of 1872, 1882, and 1892, and in all these cases the government of the day had decided on the allotment, drawn the constituency boundaries and pushed its decisions through the house by means of its majority. This brought about colossal gerrymanders, in particular the famous gerrymander of 1882.


William Heward Grafftey: Tell us about Lake Centre.


Pauline Jewett: I think Professor Dawson says that some 46 constituencies in Ontario alone were gerrymandered in 1882. What the legislation of 1903 did was to transfer the problem to a select committee of the house in which other political parties would have more opportunity than formerly to air their complaints, and try to secure as fair a redistribution as possible. As a result of the new method they were able to exercise a greater influence on the final decisions and, indeed, after 1903 there was none of the really colossal gerrymandering that Canada had experienced before.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Oh.


William Heward Grafftey: You don't mean it.


Pauline Jewett: It is quite true. According to every Canadian historian, both Conservative and Liberal, there was nothing to compare with the three Tory gerrymanders of 1872, 1882 and 1892.

The second important change, and it is of course an even greater change, is the one we are discussing today, namely that decisions in the matter of redistributing electoral boundaries should be taken out of the hands of a special committee of the house and placed in the hands of an impartial commission or commissions. This is, of course, almost a revolutionary step for this country, at any rate, to take although, as we all know, it has been done in other countries. The question whether or not redistribution should be placed in the hands of one national commission or a series of ten commissions, one for each province is, I think, not a particularly thorny one. I say this because there is general agreement, I think, on the desirability of having one commission in charge of redistribution for each province. The argument in favour of doing so is a strong one, bearing in mind the time which would be involved if we were to proceed in any other way, and the need to have people sitting on these bodies who are reasonably familiar with the characteristics of their own provinces.
I have no doubt that under the proposal in the bill the commission would be thoroughly impartial, but to make it appear to be completely so I agree with other hon. members that we should, if possible-as the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill) has already tried to do-find some other means of appointing the two additional members of each provincial commission. I think we all agree that in each case the chairman should be appointed by the chief justice of the province concerned; but what about the other two members? The proposal was made yesterday that one way to make the appointments of the other two and place the emphasis on the office rather than the person would be to try to follow the Australian example, where the appointments to the six state commissions are by virtue of office.
I would point out, however-indeed the Minister of Transport has already pointed this out in part-that this is difficult because our federal government does not really have the authority to require certain provincial officials to perform a particular task. One reason it works in Australia is that there they have joint rolls and have for some time had a working relationship between the states and the federal government on the matter of voters lists and redistribution. They have developed a kind of co-operative federalism in the area having to do with both state and federal voting. Should we ever adopt permanent voters lists in this country and use joint rolls, I think it would be quite possible that we too could establish some kind of commission by office, appointing provincial officers to those commissions and having this
Electoral Boundaries Commissions written into the federal statute concerned. But probably until that time comes it is, as has been said before, rather difficult for a federal statute to require a provincial official to do a certain job.
There is a second objection, which is that in Canada the surveyors general, for example, in the different provinces are not all officials. In one instance I can thing of this person is a minister of the crown, or perhaps there are two instances. Nor indeed are they always appointed under a civil service commission; they may be politically appointed. For that reason also the suggestion that we follow the Australian practice is not entirely workable. In Australia, all the officials, the commonwealth electoral officers, the state electoral officers, the surveyors general, and so on, are officials under the civil service commission.
My suggestion, for what it is worth, on the question of how one should appoint the other two members of the provincial commissions is that officials under federal jurisdiction should be asked to make these appointments; one to make one set of appointments to the provincial commissions, and the other to make the other set. I would think that the two officials one might choose- although there would be others, perhaps, whom we could consider-who would be logical persons to ask to perform this task would be the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada and the president of the Exchequer Court of Canada. This would mean that each of the ten commissions would consist of the appointee of the chief justice of the province, one person appointed by the chief justice of Canada and a third person appointed by the president of the exchequer court. The fourth person on each commission would, of course, be the representation commissioner. We could perhaps go further and draw up in a schedule the offices among which the two appointments in each case might be made. Certainly where it was at all feasible it would be desirable that the chief electoral officer of each province should be on the provincial commission in question.
There may be other suggestions. Some people have been talking-not in this house, but elsewhere-about the possibility of having the chief justice of each province, or the representation commissioner, make the other two appointments. Perhaps there is some value in that suggestion. At any rate, my view is that if possible, since this is a federal statute, we should have two officials under federal jurisdiction, perform this task. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in the hope that this suggestion might raise some comment in debate, I should like to suggest that these

Electoral Boundaries Commissions two people be the chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada and the president of the exchequer court.
Then we come to the question which has been arousing a good deal of discussion, and rightly so. This is the question of tolerance. I suggested at the beginning of my remarks that one of the reasons this bill is such an important constitutional landmark is that it removes redistribution from political partisanship, or partisan wrangling. But the second reason for its being a tremendous historical landmark is that for the first time we are really going to get at this problem of disparities between our various constituencies. No matter what the tolerance is, even if it went as high as 40 per cent-and I may say I find that only with 40 per cent would there be any hope of the boundaries of my riding remaining unchanged-it would still be, under this bill, an enormous change from the past. Mr. Speaker, perhaps you will not mind my putting one or two statistics on the record concerning this point, so that we will see as vividly as we can what a very great change this bill does represent in overcoming the disparities, even if there is a fairly wide tolerance.
Today, for example, in the province of Ontario the populations of the constituencies represented in the federal house vary from approximately 29,000 to approximately 267,000; that is to say, the population of the largest seat is about nine times larger than that of the smallest seat. The same is true of every other province in Canada. In some cases the disparities are even greater. In one case the population of the largest seat is more than 20 times greater than that of the smallest. Let us consider the suggestion of the right hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) of a 33J per cent tolerance. That would bring down the disparity to, at the most, having the population of one seat twice the size of another. Personally I am impressed by this terrific change. In Ontario, if one introduces a 33 J per cent tolerance, the range, the disparity, instead of being from 29,000 to 267,000 would be from 47.2 thousand to 94.4 thousand.
I just want to impress, particularly on my urban friends, what a very great difference this is. With a 20 per cent tolerance the disparity would be even narrower. With a 20 per cent tolerance and I am speaking again of Ontario, where the quotient is 70.8 thousand- the smallest figure would be 56.6 thousand, and the largest would be 84.9 thousand. So that whether we take the 33i per cent or the 20 per cent tolerance, or indeed go down to 10 per cent as some have suggested, it seems to me not really as significant or as important. The differences between 10, 20 and 33J are
IMiss Jewett.]
not really all that substantial. What is really significant about this legislation is that it is for the first time going to cut into these mammoth disparities which have existed in this country for a very long period of time.
Another point which frequently is not made sufficiently clear in connection with the disparities which exist, is that many of them are found between urban seats. Sometimes when I listen to the debate in this house on this subject I get the feeling that it is a kind of urban versus rural fight, that the urban seats are all great, large burgeoning seats, and that all the rural seats are small in terms of population. In fact, of course, this is not the case at all.
Let us take, for example, Toronto. In a city like Toronto there are almost as sharp disparities between one urban seat and another as there are between some rural seats and some urban seats. The constituency of Rose-dale, for instance, at the 1961 census had a population of 56,015, whereas York-Scarbor-ough, our favourite population contest winner, had 267,252. Rosedale is a little over 56,000, whereas York-Scarborough is a little over 267,000. Similarly St. Paul's in Toronto, which is situated in the corporate part of the city, had a population of 53,155 in 1961, whereas York Centre, one of the suburban metropolitan constituencies, had 190,405.
The same is true in Montreal. For example, in the constituency of St. Ann there were 38,173 people, whereas in Mercier there were 233,964. The constituency of Laurier had a population of 45,652, whereas Laval, also in Montreal, had 193,437. And so one could go on. There is a difference between Carleton at 130,497 and Ottawa East, one of its neighbours, at 51,828. Even Edmonton East and Edmonton West show a sharp disparity, one being almost twice the size of the other.
As I say, one of the points which will help remove this constant urban-rural conflict, and which should perhaps have been discussed more, is the realization that the disparities between the urban seats are very sharp indeed. One of the important things which this bill will do is iron out the worst of these disparities. Indeed, I see no reason why there need be any great disparity between one urban seat and another. One could argue that in urban areas which can be determined to be fast-growth areas there might be some logic in that kind of seat in the suburbs-although it would be very difficult to do this-not being made quite as large initially as a seat in the core of the city.


William Heward Grafftey: Might I ask just one question. As a matter of interest there is in some

instances quite a population shift back into the centre of cities, or parts of cities which are not the suburbs.


Pauline Jewett: Of course there is a population shift, but nothing compared with the much more substantial increase in the suburbs. Therefore there might be some ground for arguing that the suburban metro seats have slightly fewer people than the core seats. But by and large, unless one gets a pretty scientific estimate of probable population trends and growth rates it seems to me desirable to have our urban seats roughly the same in size. This is one of the biggest things we need which would resolve a good deal of the problem raised by such constituencies as the one the hon. member for York-Scar-borough (Mr. Moreau) represents. I realize he always tends to compare his constituency with a rural seat, but in comparison with other urban seats he is pretty badly underrepresented too.
If my arithmetic is correct, if the quotient for Ontario is 70,800 persons per seat, and if the tolerance is 20 per cent, the core of Toronto-that is, the corporate old city- would lose two seats. Suburban Toronto, the York ridings, would gain five seats. That means there would be a net gain-and here I am not using the full 20 per cent tolerance -of about three seats for the whole of metropolitan Toronto, because of the fact that there is a major readjustment which must be carried out within the city itself. The same is true of Montreal, Ottawa, Edmonton and other cities in Canada.
Should there, then, also be no disparities from one rural seat to another? One could argue here too that there is no reason for there being a sharp disparity between one rural seat and another. However, I think we should remember that some rural seats could be more properly described as hinterland seats. They are not really farming or agricultural constituencies, but they are very large indeed in geographic terms. It seems to me that these constituencies should be at the minimum level allowed under the act. We should not attempt, in other words, to have them roughly the same size as the average rural seat.
Then we come to the question which has been most discussed, namely what differential there should be between urban seats on the one hand and rural or hinterland seats on the other. The first think I should say on this, a point which has not yet been made, is that probably every constituency in Canada will be changed. There is a tendency for us to look at our constituencies from where we sit and say to ourselves: "Let me see, my population is so and so; I guess I am going to be within the tolerance"-whether it be
Electoral Boundaries Commissions 20 per cent or 33J-"and I will be o.k." This of course, will not be the case. The population of some constituencies will not change very much; however, its borders may change a very great deal. It may take in some other area and lose a part it formerly had. Indeed, this is one of the major features to which I do not think hon. members have yet adjusted their minds. One of the greatest certainties about this piece of legislation is that it will involve a comprehensive, over-all look at all constituencies in each province, not from the point of view of the members or the local politicians but from an over-all point of view based on reasonably scientific criteria. Therefore, there is nothing to prevent a fairly sharp change in constituency boundaries. Yours or mine may be cut in two or it may disappear entirely.
Furthermore, much as we would like, there can certainly be no rigid adherence to county lines.
The hon. member for Parry Sound-Mus-koka (Mr. Aiken) made a strong plea, one that has been heard many times in the house and with which I have a good deal of sympathy, that if possible we should not carve up the counties. In fact, however, this has never been possible in the past and is even less likely in this new redistribution. What is terribly important, of course, is that we do not carve up the municipalities. Every effort should be made to follow municipal boundaries, and this is perhaps one of the main reasons why we need a tolerance of at least 20 per cent.
It seems to me that there are several good reasons why rural ridings should be somewhat smaller in population than urban ridings. One good reason that is frequently given, and which was given yesterday, is that the member of parliament for a rural riding -in my case my riding is about three quarters rural-receives a larger number of requests for help and information than does an urban member, the kind of requests that in an urban area go to the local district office of the department of government concerned. One can easily determine this kind of thing by comparing notes with one's fellows from urban areas.
I do not believe, however, that this argument alone should be sufficient to keep rural ridings smaller in population than urban ones. It seems to me that what we really need as members of parliament, especially those of us who find that we spend practically all of our time coping with requests from our constituents, quite legitimate requests but ones which often take a great deal of time to obtain the information and to answer, is an executive assistant or two. Therefore the real answer to this problem is

Electoral Boundaries Commissions not to distort the electoral system but to provide more assistance to those members of parliament who receive an enormous amount of correspondence from their constituents.
When I was in Washington in January with other hon. members participating in the interparliamentary talks I was amazed, and I am sure others were as well, to discover that a member of the house of representatives, the lower house of the United States congress, who is elected for a two year term, has a staff of approximately seven. The number varies, depending on how active the member is and what kind of district he represents. But one in particular, whom we all got to know quite well, had five assistants in Washington and two in his district, all paid for by the government.


Mr. Greene:: We are only peasants here.


Pauline Jewett: Mind you, the United States is a very wealthy country and no doubt can afford a good deal of help for its elected representatives. However, if each member of our parliament had even one assistant it would help us in the matter of looking after the needs, which are very great indeed, of rural and hinterland types of constituencies, and we need this help both in Ottawa and in our constituencies.
There are, however, two main reasons why it seems to me that rural constituencies should generally be smaller in population than urban ones. One is that, generally speaking, the organized pressure group in Canada is an urban phenomenon and, as we all well know, pressure groups to have a certain amount of influence on government policy. There are few such groups representing rural areas, since the more sparsely settled and agricultural areas of our country are not able generally to be so highly organized as our urban areas. Therefore boards of trade, chambers of commerce, industrial, social and other organizations tend to be urban-oriented and to represent the urban point of view. A member of parliament from an urban area is, therefore, complemented and supplemented in his activities by this kind of pressure group activity.
The other reason that comes to mind as to why we should have more members from rural than from urban areas is that the daily press is entirely urban, representing an urban point of view. To help counteract this there should be a few more members of parliament from rural areas. I am not suggesting, however, that there should be a great disparity such as we have today, either among urban areas or as between some rural areas and some urban areas. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier, whatever tolerance we choose is going to be such a change from what we have had


in the past, and will narrow the disparity so greatly, that this legislation will really be a revolutionary step forward.
Personally I would argue in favour of a tolerance of about 25 per cent, although I am not sure this is going to affect us very much. The way I have been working out the mathematics of the matter, those of us who represent rural ridings are going to represent about the same number of people whether the tolerance is 15, 20 or 25 per cent. The larger tolerance might, however, help hinterland constituencies and, of course, that would be an advantage to them.
These are the main points I wanted to bring out in this debate-the suggestion for the appointment of the commissioners on the various commissions, the argument that the rural-urban difference has been overplayed and that we should have been looking more at the great disparity between urban seats, the suggestion that there is some logic in keeping some disparity between urban ridings on the one hand and rural on the other and, finally, the argument that, although it may not make a substantial difference, if it would make all of us happy, a tolerance of 25 per cent would in my view at any rate, be feasible.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order.
It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely, notices of motions.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


Mr. Gerald Laniel (Beauharnois-Salaberry) moved:: That in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of adopting compulsory service in this country for all men 18 to 21 years of age, the service duration to be approximately 12 months.

He said: Mr. Speaker, one of the problems which are causing us great concern in the period we are going through at the present time is the problem of our youth, of those coming after us, who will assume the numerous responsibilities in an increasingly troubled world.
I think we have an important duty to perform and that is to season our youth as much as we can in order that they will be well equipped to face the challenge presented by the second half of the twentieth century.
In this confused world, often affected by internal divisions and a bit lost in the midst of ideologies feared by the average man, our youth do suffer psychologically in this ever changing modern world of ours.

Whether they be parents or public men, they all have some apprehension with regard to the future of our young people, wondering what those young people really want. They wonder about their hopes and yearnings and sometimes would gladly go back a generation or two to try and find the means to prevent an emancipation which is causing so much worry.
I appeal to all the people in Canada, to every parent and every politician, and I say to them that it is everybody's responsibility to consider the situation with the utmost care. We should do so in the most objective manner, trying to see whether our methods of training and education answer our present needs. Putting aside all emotionalism, we should take the trouble to consider every available possibility which might result in giving our children a better chance.
Mr. Speaker, in submitting a motion on compulsory service, on national service, or on compulsory military training-call it what you will-I never intended to stop our young people from becoming more independent, or even to slow down this development, because I am one of those who believe that there is nothing to be done against evolution. We have to live in the present, and look for solutions to the problems facing us today, as they are, and with the philosophy of 1964. Yet, I wonder whether our children themselves, without quite realizing it, do not suffer from that transformation of the family, from the changes in their social background, where each of us is concerned with his own problems, where the woman is less a mother than a wife, a man less a father than a husband, and, I would add, where the daughters and sons are not so much submissive children as members of a student group or the new trend among the young people of throwing everything overboard.
Even if there is no question of stopping their newly acquired freedom or an evolution which is in keeping with the times, I think that it is the responsibility of each and everyone of us-whether we be heads of families, politicians, or Canadian citizens-to meet the problem and see whether our young people have all the means available to help them attain their full development, as well as all institutions required to protect them against themselves.
I do not want to embark upon a full discussion of the educational problem, but, on the basis of various views expressed in various quarters, and of my own experience, I may,
I think, draw some conclusions and believe that some kind of compulsory service might become an additional factor, a formative element to help our young people prepare themselves better for life. To my mind, such 20220-52
Compulsory Armed Service service would give them, in a comparatively short period, an opportunity of meeting, so to speak, the tests of life, away from the protective action of their own people, or from their childhood friends and also, which is important, far from that little kingdom which each individual tries to create around himself. The young man would live in an age group society, where each one would be on his own in a struggle for and against himself, while having to bear and tolerate those with whom he would have to rub shoulders.
A strict discipline, a team experience where the authorities' decisions are imposed upon the group with no opportunity to discuss them, that is a phase which will become in itself an apprenticeship for this world, where we have to face so many hardships and inconveniences and which remains for each individual a continuous struggle.
Mr. Speaker, it might be difficult to put into words what a person gets from a military and rigid discipline, but experience has proven that it may have beneficial effects. Ask those who have done military service, inquire of the parents of youth who were in the cadet corps, take a look at our military colleges (even our parish guards) and you will realize that the results are nevertheless conclusive.
My years of militia service gave me the opportunity to acknowledge many such facts and to realize how much four hours of service each week can benefit those who will take the trouble to give up a few hours of leisure. And here, I venture to add, for those who think the army is a place where young people go astray, that our military force is not a place of perdition any more than bowling-alleys, restaurants, theatres, uncensored television and even some beatnik or bearded-people clubs.
Mr. Speaker, I sincerely believe in the advantages of such a project and I appeal to everyone. I urge them to discard their prejudices and to take into serious consideration what compulsory service could mean for our country. I should like them to study my idea of such a service and, after full consideration, to look for ways which would enable the government of Canada to carry out such a project for the good of all young Canadians and with a view to greater national unity.
Since I have relatively little time at my disposal, to explain that project, I should like to list the most important points which deserve consideration by all the groups which form our population.
First of all, I would ask you to remove the word "conscription" from your minds, because many people associate it with world conflicts, wars, and general restrictions and

Compulsory Armed Service
sacrifices. The purpose of my scheme is of a social rather than a military character, and the armed forces would only be an instrument used to carry it out. Service would be in Canada only and our youth would never be sent to foreign countries, even for peacekeeping operations.
Some people say that our country's image abroad would suffer. I should like to give them certain examples of countries that have always been considered as most pacific; Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Ireland, where military service for young people has always existed.
A while ago, I referred to military colleges and I should like to come back to them briefly to try and show you that, while endeavouring to instil a spirit of discipline and respect for authority, even a sense of responsibility, through physical and military training, it remains possible to devote most of the time to education. As a matter of fact, our military colleges are to be commended because they succeed in giving a university training and in producing men with backbone and guts, men who can take their responsibilities. I do not see why the same principle could not apply to general service across the country.
What would stop this service from becoming a contribution to national unity and a means of spreading bilingualism and acquainting people with both basic cultures in the country? I see there a possibility of organizing the largest language school which would be available for all young Canadians. They would also have the advantage of visiting the country, of developing broader viewpoints and of knowing others their own age, who belong to different ethnic groups, all those who, tomorrow will take the place of their predecessors, and face this responsibility and challenge of developing and improving this country of ours.
People often complain that our schools do not give enough attention to Canadian history and politics. Well, this might perhaps be taken into account in the establishment of the programs. There also we find infinite educational possibilities which, I know, would raise problems of jurisdiction, but which are nevertheless worth studying, and I mean by that the possibility of postgraduate work to complete the studies already begun: study of a trade, technical studies, arts, letters, physical education, and so forth.
Mr. Speaker, I now come to the question of the students who wish to continue their studies after high school. In my plan, as you may have noticed, I provide for a 12-month service between the ages of 18 and 21 years, that is, within a period of five years, and this in order to allow, first of all, those who wish
[Mr. Laniel.l
to complete their high school to do so before being called up. As for the others who decide to continue their studies, in university or specialized schools, I would imagine a two or three-month service during two consecutive summers, with pay, in addition to service of the C.O.T.C. type (without pay) during the school term between the two summer service periods. Thus, nobody's studies would be affected, and I even wonder whether it would not prove an incentive to high school students to complete their studies at least, if not to further them.
Mr. Speaker, it could bring about beneficial effects for the Canadian economy, more especially as regards unemployment. After a study of statistics, I came to the conclusion that approximately 150,000 young men would be affected by this service every year. Excluding those who would complete their studies, as well as those who would fail the physical examination, a little over 100,000 would be removed from the labour market, thus contributing to reduce by 1 to 1| per cent the rate of unemployment in Canada. Out of those 100,000 and over, about 85 per cent are employed at present, and their jobs would become available for older workers. As for the 15 per cent of unemployed, what difference would there be in paying them an allowance for a national service, or in paying them unemployment insurance benefits, unemployment assistance or social security allowances?
According to average figures for 1956, 1961 and 1963, the percentage of young men out of work from 18 to 21 years of age is more than double the rate for the total labour force. Draw some parallels and ask yourselves what the government has to pay to initiate measures or incentives in orders to promote the economy and check unemployment. I had neither the means nor the necessary time at my disposal to study the matter thoroughly, but I would refer you to starred question No. 101 put by the hon. member for Simcoe East (Mr. Rynard) concerning the employment program for older people, in addition to the answer given as reported in Hansard of March 9 on page 675. When only the publicity costs of such a program are considered, the total amount reaches $199,511 and this only for 468 workers up to January 31, 1964. Since the program has been extended up to the end of March, this number should double and perhaps about a thousand persons will take advantage of this program.
That means the government will also have to pay for each of those individuals a monthly payment of $75 or an amount of $900 during the current year. This amount, multiplied by 1,000 people, gives a total of $900,000.

Once you add this total to the publicity expenses, you get a lump sum of about $1,100,000 and this, I repeat, without making any allowance for administration expenses. This fact among many others, goes merely to prove that the government has its heart set on giving work to the Canadian people and to show at the same time that if we are ready to spend millions for plans of this kind, I cannot see why we should refuse these millions for plans of this kind, I cannot see why we should refuse these millions to our young people, upon whom depends Canada's future; in a roundabout way the rest of the population would profit by it, as regards our serious unemployment problem.
And what about the savings effected by the unemployment insurance fund that would pay
100.000	benefits less than it does now, which, after all, represents $150 million a year?
One of the main objections comes from those who claim that our country cannot afford the prohibitive cost of such a service, for it is said that the cost might reach the half billion mark and even more. I made a few inquiries, and it is up to you to play about with these figures and see for yourselves if, in some instances, enough money could be saved, particularly after the tabling of the white paper, by the Minister of National Defence, and if there are any ways and means of avoiding undue expenditures, which might bring about administrative deficits.
First, we must consider what pay these young trainees should receive. Should it compare to the $112 paid monthly at present to new recruits; or, considering that the trainee would not embrace a military career, where hazards may be great, should the pay be based on an annual salary of say, $1,000, that is approximately $20 a week? If there were
100.000	young men in our armed forces and if each of them got $1,000, the total pay would amount to $100 million. To that must be added the cost of the training and administrative personnel, that is approximately $80 million, as well as the expenditures for maintenance, transport, food, clothing, hospitalization, etc. which would reach an estimated $120 million. The total cost would therefore be $300 million. Out of that sum, I think we could save about $40 million through the abolition of the militia. I therefore conclude that the establishment of compulsory service in Canada would cost between $250 and $300 million, an amount not quite so high as some people claim. Yet, I feel that the advantages we could derive from such a scheme certainly justify further consideration.
Mr. Speaker, on what basis do we decide that something is expensive? Is price the
20220-52i
Compulsory Armed Service only criterion or must we consider the value of what we are getting for our money? Considering that our first duty, as Canadians, and Canadians from every province, is to pave the way for our young people in giving them the best tools to face the difficulties of life, I come to the conclusion, in all sincerity, that such an expense is justified and that we must consider that matter most seriously.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say to all members, judging from my own experience in the past three weeks, that the people's reaction have been very good, even among the young, even among most of the members of this house; I would add that such a favourable reaction, even in Quebec, is the evidence that Canadian unity is gaining ground, and that at home as well as elsewhere, we believe in a sense of national responsibility in view of the present difficulties. We are not afraid any longer to lose our French Canadian entity.
It is only if we decide to solve together our common problems-the problem of our young people is one of them, Canadian unity is another-that the dialogue will really be open and that we will come out of it better men, to serve a stronger Canada in a climate of better understanding. I do not want to mention here all the evidence that reached me but I will tell you that my mail runs almost 80 per cent in favour for the whole of Canada, against 70 per cent in Quebec. That means something.
Here is conclusive evidence to show you the evolution that has taken place in my own riding on a question which, a few years ago, met with much opposition. At the referendum held in April 1942, the county of Beau-harnois-Salaberry voted against the government proposal by 20 against 3, while today on two opinion programs on the local radio, more than 80 per cent of those who phoned were in favour of the setting up in our country of a compulsory service for young people. And the great majority see in such an instrument an additional way, and one of the most vital, to imbue our young people with a sense of responsibility and everything related to it. I admit that all are not agreed on the formula which I am proposing. Some would like a longer service, others do not want it under a military control, and a very small number prefer it to be voluntary; but almost everybody believes in the need of something similar to a military service and is of the opinion that the government, with the help of our institutions, should undertake a careful study of the question.

Compulsory Armed Service


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I was really astonished when I read this motion, for I was unaware that the hon. member for Beauhar-nois-Salaberry (Mr. Laniel) had such a warlike spirit.
In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, this motion reduces itself to conscription of youth in peacetime. The play on words we got from the hon. member reminded me of the Right Hon. Mackenzie King who, at the outbreak of war, said it was mobilization and not conscription.
The hon. member spoke of unemployment, implying that compulsory military service would help to solve this problem in our country. I wonder whether this is a confession coming from a government member who, losing confidence in his own ministers, tells us that, after all they are unable to settle the question of unemployment otherwise than by conscription or compulsory military training of Canadian youth.
I also wonder whether that notice of motion has not been inspired by the government itself, through the medium of the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry, to bring about the conscription of our young people. Personally, I am in favour of voluntary military service; let our young people decide for themselves whether they wish to join the armed forces, during the holidays or otherwise.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be preferable for the Associate Minister of National Defence (Mr. Cardin), who is in this house at this time, to ask the few-and I repeat the few-French speaking senior officers who are very well paid, to visit the universities, the high schools or classical colleges and to tell those young people that there is room for them in the federal civil service, in the national defence department and in the armed forces.
To my mind, this would encourage the younger men, without coercing them into anything; in other words, they could be guided towards a military career.
It is recognized by everyone that within the framework of our federative system, education is under the jurisdiction of the provinces. The education of youth is also under provincial jurisdiction of the provinces. Parents carry the responsibility of educating their children, but teachers and schools share this responsibility. If the hon. member wants our youth to be better trained, he should persuade the present government to decentralize, from the fiscal point of view, in order to grant provinces larger sources of income, thus allowing greater development in sports education, while encouraging better training for the young.

We hear people say that world tension is easing. We speak of peace. An encyclical letter has even been written on the subject. Many countries do not have compulsory service, and I have learned recently that even England does not have one.
I wonder then if instead of establishing compulsory military service in peacetime, it would not be better to encourage those Canadians-particularly French Canadians since relatively few of them hold key positions in our three armed services-who have a wish and a natural bent for it, to choose a military career. As a matter of fact, I would ask the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry if he does not feel that the government should encourage young French Canadians to play their rightful part in the Department of National Defence because, at the present time, there are only about 8 per cent of French Canadians in the department earning $5,000 or more.
I wonder also if it would not be possible to have orders given in both official languages in our armed forces.
Furthermore, I feel that a four-year course should be given at the College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean so as to put it on the same footing as the Kingston military college. It could even be affiliated with the University of Montreal, as recommended by the St. Jean Baptiste society.
As for the children of French speaking members of our military personnel who serve overseas, I feel they should be educated according to the system in force in Quebec instead of under the Ontario system.
Mr Speaker, I wonder whether it would be possible to change our military uniforms so as to prevent any confusion with the armed forces of other countries.
The hon. member has quoted figures concerning the approximate cost of compulsory service. He mentioned pay but he forget to mention the cost of lodging, transporting, clothing and feeding the young people who would be forced to undergo military training.
That is my personal opinion, Mr. Speaker. I respect the feelings of the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry, even if I do not share them. However, I must say that I am strongly against any form of peacetime conscription such as the one proposed by the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry as long as such schemes bear any similarity to the one enforced by Mackenzie King.


Marcel Lessard: Mr. Speaker, at the very start of my remarks, I would like to congratulate the hon. member from Beauharnois-Salaberry (Mr. Laniel) for his courage in submitting his motion. Considering that, in the past, the people of Quebec were always, in a general way, systematically

opposed to military service, I think that a French speaking member from Quebec should be commended for his daring and courage in suggesting such a measure, even by those who do not necessarily agree with him in this respect.
Mr. Speaker, I think that we are dealing today with a rather delicate matter which has been fully discussed in the past, and was mostly carried into an entirely different field than the one for which it was intended. As a matter of fact, the emotional element prevailed in those discussions, feeling, rather than fact being primarily considered. To my mind, emotions were stressed and played upon.
A compulsory system would certainly have some advantages. On the other hand, we should also consider its drawbacks. I listened with great attention to the hon. member's argument in support of his motion, as well as to the remarks of the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon). At that time, I began to ponder on the political basis of Canada, and I realized how much the Liberal party and its military concepts had evolved over the years.
I think we still have in mind those famous political struggles during the 30 years following the first world war, and more particularly the famous conscription which was passed in 1917, and became the theme of all Liberal election campaigns thereafter. Indeed, resorting to demagogic means the Liberals always succeeded in striking political capital from the conscription issue in 1917, emotionally appealing to the people of Quebec, in order to be returned to power in Ottawa.
But in 1964, we see a member of the Liberal party suggesting in this house, the adoption of compulsory military service in this country.
I am not systematically opposed to the hon. member's motion, but I am trying to find out what would be gained or lost, or what would have to be paid for any gain.
I wondered whether, instead of having a compulsory military system, it would not be better to incorporate some measures of military training education in our secondary and university courses through the provincial educational system, which would inform Canadian citizens in matters of national defence, train them in the handling of arms in keeping with the present military evolution in the world, in which active military forces would be less and less needed. Moreover, in case of a conflict breaking out in some part of the world, or even in our own country, it would be well to count on part of our population having some-though, I admit, inadequate- training, and some idea of the military point of view.
Compulsory Armed Service
Mr. Speaker, I do not know exactly how, at the provincial level, an educational program could be established that would incorporate military training, but I believe that instead of studying the possibility of having compulsory military service for all young Canadians, it would be better to consider this aspect of the problem.
The hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry made a statement to which I take exception. He spoke about the advantages such a system would bring, and he mentioned more particularly the economic advantage which would result, that is a reduction in the number of unemployed. Now, I am categorically opposed to military service for our Canadian fellow citizens in order to stop unemployment.
As the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, has pointed out, it is almost like admitting that a solution has not been found to the problem of unemployment.
Mr. Speaker, if really the only way to fight unemployment is to impose military service on our young people, we have fallen far short of our present duty. Of course, if our young people were offered optional service, I would see some advantages to it. On the other hand, a one year period of service could be devised for our young people between 18 and 21, for which they could register when it would suit them most, according to their studies, their profession, their marriage or other circumstances.
This training could be divided in four periods of three months each and take place in four different regions of our country. For instance, training would be held for three months in Alberta so that our young Canadians could become familiar with that part of our country, travel throughout Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, and get to know the geography of their country. A second period of training could take place in Ontario and in the western part of that province. Thus, the recruits could visit Ontario and Manitoba. A third period of training could be held at Valcartier, in central Quebec, where our fellow citizens of other provinces could get acquainted with the ways and customs of the province of Quebec and perhaps appreciate them more. The final period of training would be in the maritimes so that they could get to know that part of the country better.
Military service in Quebec would also tend to promote the knowledge of French among English speaking Canadians. The training could be entirely in French, so that young Canadians doing their military service in Quebec for three months could mix with French Canadians and, in some way, be influenced by the people with whom they would have to live, as well as through their contacts, their visits and their training.

Compulsory Armed Service
Those are some of the benefits to be obtained from military service, though I do not feel it should be compulsory. It would have as a result to open new horizons for our youth, to take them away from their narrow bit of land so they could see the country as a whole, and avoid, if I may say so, a regional mentality which in fact warped our views of the Canadian government and of the principles which were at the basis for the setting up of this country.
It was said that in Canada, there is an alarming rise of juvenile delinquency and that military service might be a way to cope with that problem. There seems to be some truth in the allegation because, as far as I am concerned, young men from my riding who come to see me quite regularly ask for my assistance in order to be admitted to the College Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean or, into our armed forces generally speaking. There are even some older persons who were in the services before and would like to get back, because they were well treated and had an opportunity for growth.
There is a percentage of our citizens in Canada and in Quebec-I dare to say in Quebec-who would like to have the opportunity to do some military service in order to travel about the country and get some experience.
However, I do not think, as I said earlier, that to attain these worthy objects it would be necessary to have compulsory military service.
So, Mr. Speaker, I think that before action is taken the matter deserves much more consideration, because it involves several social, economics and even moral factors.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I was listening a little while ago to the hon. member for Beauharnois-Sala-berry (Mr. Laniel) outlining with a quaver in his voice the benefits for our Canadian youth of compulsory military service in our country. He mentioned for instance the troubled world in which we live, where youngsters having a hard time finding a situation, and he claimed that, with compulsory military service, the government would look after this guidance. He told us also that military service would give our young people training and discipline. He said also that, in his opinion, his motion would help stem unemployment in Canada.
Afterwards, he made a plea for all hon. members of the house to co-operate with him and face the problem with courage and boldness so that our youth will be able to attain self-achievement. He even urged us not to be afraid to lose our seats, but to take a

stand in favour of compulsory military service between the ages of 18 and 21. He gave us his conception of such a service, but it is not necessarily that of the hon. members, and especially not that of our group.
His notice of motion refers to compulsory service. We have always had military service in Canada, but not compulsory military service. He wants to impose upon our young men of 18 to 21 the obligation of doing military service or some other service for the government.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member also told us that since he had put his notice of motion on the order paper he had received numerous letters of congratulations from all the Canadian provinces, and especially from Quebec, and that 70 per cent of our young people would be anxious to see such service.
Mr. Speaker, whether such a service would cost $200 or $300 million, that is quite immaterial to us. Even though it would cost $1 billion.
The point I want to stress is the matter of compulsory service. We have had compulsory service in the past. As the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm pointed out a while ago, the Liberals kept themselves in office for 30 years by saying they were against compulsory service or conscription. Today, we have one of their own people proposing that we have compulsory service.
Personally, I have never been against- neither has anybody in Canada, I do not think-a young man joining the armed forces, as long as he does so voluntarily.
It is through persuasion, education and belief that young men finally become interested in the service, whether it be military or otherwise. I have no objection to that. But I am against any form of compulsory service.
There are some examples in Canada. It is not only compulsory or military service which provides educational facilities to our young men or enables them to acquire a sense of discipline. There are schools where attendance is not compulsory. We have here a member, the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Plourde), who has looked after the recreational activities of young people in Quebec city for ten or 12 years, in connection with playgrounds and disciplinary training. No one was compelled to join that organization, but if they went there, it was because they were eager to acquire an education. By doing so, the member for Quebec West was offering his services, voluntarily, there was nothing compulsory involved.
Mr. Speaker, we are certainly not in favour of this notice of motion which I am convinced is a direct encroachment on education of our young men from 18 to 21 years of age, again an intrusion of the state at that level.

Mr. Speaker, it has been said that such a measure would check unemployment by compelling our young people to do military service, in order to vacate jobs and to enable older workers to get employment. Would such a measure give enough jobs to cope effectively with unemployment? I do not believe that such a measure would be likely to check unemployment and there are other ways to achieve it.
Mr. Speaker, after the war, we still had thousands of young people in the forces and we started immediately to have unemployment, although the number of our young people in the army was still quite high. Compulsory military service is certainly not the way to alleviate unemployment in this country. There are better solutions than that.
As far as we are concerned, we are offering a solution that the hon. member for Beau-harnois-Salaberry has not seen fit to accept yet but that many people, even the economists, accept more and more every day: that is to put our economic system at the service of our Canadian consumers.
With regard to our children's education, I think that we, fathers and mothers, can give some direction to our young between 18 and 21, telling them where to go or not to go, what to do or not to do, without any interference from any government whatsoever. We want our young people, our own children, to have a good future. We want to create an economic climate in which they can grow with complete freedom, without any obligation from anywhere, through education and persuasion alone. I sincerely believe that the fathers and mothers who talk with their chilren are the first who can have some influence on these young people and convince them by persuasion, dialogue, and belief as the hon. member said a while ago. There is no need for anything compulsory, or for military service.
Mr. Speaker, this is the solution we are suggesting and, as I said earlier, it is more and more acknowledged, even by economists. 1 have here a small English book entitled:
Money-A Christian View.
Thus, young men enrolled for compulsory service would earn their pay.
This little book was written jointly by Mr. P. Ritchie Calder, professor of international relations, University of Edinburgh, Miss Mary Dunn, committee of enquiry into the Scottish economy, and by Mr. Maxwell Gaskin, senior lecturer in political economy, University of Glasgow.
Here is what those economists who prepared this work have to say:
Compulsory Armed Service

The problem, therefore, is not simply one of providing against old age, ill-health or temporary unemployment-essential though these safeguards will continue to be. We must visualize a situation when it would be impossible to provide "gainful" employment for a substantial and growing section of the population.

And it is in accordance with one of those points that the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry now brings forward his notice of motion, to take care of the unemployment problem in Canada.
I continue:

We are of the opinion that it would be foolish to attempt to retard or reverse this tendency; rather should we look upon it as a challenge and an opportunity-a challenge to solve the economic, social and moral problems, and an opportunity to move on into these wide fields of human endeavour that can only be explored on a voluntary basis.
The evil of unemployment resides in two things- poverty due to lack of access to the real wealth produced by the economic system, and misuse of the leisure it provides. The first can be cured by a reformed monetary system and the second, given the removal of the first, is the responsibility of the moral leaders of society, and of course of the individual himself.

Mr. Speaker, we do not support at all this measure intended to set up compulsory military service and I have said why. We are in favour of education, yes. We are in favour of persuasion, yes. We are in favour of guidance for our young people, but we do not need a strait-jacket to tell our children where they must go in life and in the future of our country.


Mr. R. W. Prittie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I shall now speak in the other official language of this country-

In order that there will be no doubt about it, Mr. Speaker, may I say that my colleagues and I are completely opposed to this resolution, and included among our members are some who are veterans of war service or of military service after the war. There is no great public demand for compulsory service I was surprised at the remarks of the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) who said that the resolution might have been inspired by the cabinet. It might have been an interesting experience if other members of the official opposition had risen to speak today, and we had had the opportunity to see how many members on the government side would have spoken on the matter.

Compulsory Armed Service
There has been no demand for compulsory service, and not even the Royal Canadian Legion, which I believe has made demands of this sort in past years, has made any such demand in recent years. I was looking over their 1962 resolutions and they just ask for service in the reserves, while in their submission to the government last year there was no mention of compulsory service at all.
Some of the aims that the hon. member has in mind may be quite laudable. We want to do something for Canadian youth, but I think he is seeking to go about it in the wrong way. If we were to have such a program it would mean spending a considerable amount of money and I can think of many better uses for that money in helping our youth. For example, the Royal Canadian Legion is now operating a very good nationwide sports program to train athletes and to provide recreation for young people. I suggest that money might be given for that purpose instead of being used for compulsory service. I believe that the national advisory committee on physical fitness is meeting at the present time in Ottawa, and I suggest that more money could be given to that organization for its purposes.
With regard to the contribution to national unity which the hon. member mentioned, there are various organizations working towards this end now. I think of the organization called "Interprovincial Visits" which arranges visits between English speaking and French speaking students, so one will have a chance to see how the other lives. We might give more aid by way of a grant to this organization and achieve the same purpose that the hon. member has in mind.
In his own province of Quebec a department of youth was established a number of years ago. I am not sure whether this has been done anywhere else but it seems like a very good idea. I suggest that there ought to be such departments in other provinces, and that in the interests of the youth of our country the federal government could participate by assisting such departments with grants.
No substantial portion of the population is demanding compulsory service and in our opinion it would serve no useful purpose. In fact, at the present time the trend in the world is away from compulsory service. While we agree with some of the aims the hon. member has in mind, these aims can be much better achieved by grants to sports organizations, and organizations which promote visits of young people between provinces. Compulsory service would certainly be no solution
[Mr. Prittie.l

to the unemployment problem, and if we were to adopt something like this to help to alleviate unemployment among our youth it would be a terrible admission of failure on our part.


Mr. Robert Temple (Hastings South):: Mr. Speaker, in the very few moments left I wish to go on record as being opposed to this resolution. I am opposed on several grounds, but the short time left to me does not give me the opportunity to list them all. I am opposed because of the astronomical cost that would be involved, because of the effect on Canada's external relations and because I cannot see any real military value.
In so far as cost is concerned, if we assume that each of these young men between the ages of 18 and 21 who is inducted will receive $3 a day, which is double what a trained soldier got some 20 years ago, that would be $21 a week for each one. If we take a figure of 598,000 males from 18 to 21 and leave out some 15 to 18 per cent who would not be able to qualify because of medical reasons, there would still be approximately half a million, and even at a cost of $1,000 each per year we would have $500 million just for pay alone. Then we would have to have extra barracks. We would have to have additional administration staff and the total cost would probably be $700 million or $800 million a year.
A country like Malaysia which has instituted the draft had a reason for doing so. They are faced with a threat from Indonesia and just this week have had to introduce a draft system. It must also be remembered that a war no doubt would be a conventional war, if it should develop between these two countries. But Canada is in a different position. According to the 1963 figures we have an army of 49,381 men, and certainly to spend another $700 million or $800 million a year on inductees does not make economic sense.
So far as Canada's external relations are concerned, I would point out that at this time tensions generally between the major powers seem to be easing and I submit this would not be the time to go ahead and institute compulsory military training in Canada. The old idea of the Greeks, that every citizen should serve his city, is a fine idea, but it does not make practical sense today.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order.
It being six o'clock the hour for private members' business has expired.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask the house leader if we will continue with Bill No. C-72 tomorrow?


Mr. Favreau:: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We will continue tomorrow with Bill C-72 on electoral redistribution. If we finish it before tomorrow evening we will take the resolution introducing the Canada pension plan. On Friday we will be taking interim supply and final supplementary estimates. If we are not through with these matters on Friday we may carry on for some time on Monday,
Business of the House
after which we will again take the resolution introducing the Canada pension plan. Monday evening will be budget night in Canada and the whole of Tuesday will be devoted to debate on the resolution preceding the Canada pension plan.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday. March 12, 1964