1964-05-20

HOUSE OF COMMONS DEBATES


[Stage Direction]
queen's PRINTER AND CONTROLLER OF STATIONERY OTTAWA, 1964
[Stage Direction]

Wednesday, May 20, 1964

Mr. Eric A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: Mr. Speaker, I rise with your permission, and I trust on behalf of the entire house, to welcome into the diplomatic gallery this afternoon four members of the West German government who are here on a visit. I would extend to them in their native tongue a "Herzliches Willkommen", which interpreted means bienvenue or welcome.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secretary of Stale for External Affairs: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of those of us on this side of the house I should like to be allowed to associate myself with the hon. gentleman in extending a very sincere welcome to the distinguished parliamentarians from the Bundestag in Western Germany. I have recently been in West Germany, where I was the beneficiary of much kindness from the government of that country. I am sure that our expression of welcome to these distinguished parliamentarians will not be found wanting in the warmth and sincerity with which this parliament is pleased to welcome these distinguished representatives.



COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE


Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to present, in English and in French, the sixth report of the special committee on procedure and organization. This report outlines a major reorganization of the staff and services of the House of Commons.
I have the honour to present in English and in French the seventh report of the special committee on procedure and organization. Later it is my intention to call upon the hon. member for Edmonton West to explain this report under the heading of motions.


Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: Mr. Speaker, seconded by the hon. member for Lapointe and with the unanimous consent of the house I should like to move concurrence in the seventh report of the special committee on procedure and organization.
It will be recalled that during the last session the committee on debates of which I had the honour to be a member presented a report which was not concurred in. Therein was contained the following paragraph:
That satisfactory electronic recording apparatus as referred to in the abovementioned report be installed at the earliest possible date to be used on a trial basis in selected committee rooms.
Hon. members will be aware that about two weeks ago a somewhat awkward situation arose with regard to the recording of the debates and proceedings of one of the house committees, that on privileges and elections, in the French language. Despite every effort it has been found very difficult to obtain additional reportorial staff, especially on a permanent basis. It was through the generosity of the other place and of one of the government agencies that trained reportorial staff able to record the proceedings in French were obtained.
In the past two years at least, primarily as a result of the introduction of simultaneous interpretation, considerably more French has been used in this chamber, with the result that an undue burden has been placed on the shoulders of our French Hansard staff who are thus not available for French committee hearings. It is in order to alleviate this difficulty, as well as to examine, rather with experience than in haste, the use of electronic recording equipment, that your committee would recommend to this house that electronic recording apparatus be introduced into selected committee proceedings in order to assist in overcoming the difficulty caused by the shortage of French reporters and in order that the value of this equipment may be assessed.
Your committee was unanimous in this recommendation, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask members of the house to concur in this report.

Procedure Committee [Translation]


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to second the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert) for concurrence in the seventh report of the special committee on procedure and organization.
It is obvious that we were faced with an emergency due to the shortage of bilingual or French speaking stenographers and reporters in the various committees of the house.
As mentioned by the hon. member for Edmonton West, these last few years, mostly in the last two years, the French language has asserted itself more and more in the house and this has contributed to emphasize the bilingual character of our country. However, bilingual or French speaking reporters could not be found.
What is strange in the situation that is developing today is that we are obliged to call on machines to replace people, that is electronic machines to replace the reporters who could have been used.
While I second this motion, Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out that it does not necessarily mean that reporters will be replaced but that their work will be made easier and more complete. I suggest at the same time that the responsible authorities make the necessary efforts to find bilingual or French reporters. I am convinced that their smallest efforts will meet with success and that it will be possible and even easy to find very good French or bilingual stenographers and reporters in our country.


Mr. Pigeon:: If we offer a good salary, we will find some.


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minisier of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a word on this motion as a member of the special committee on procedure and organization. We are pleased on this side of the house to consent to the waiving of the usual notice and make concurrence in this report possible today. We do that because of the emergency situation that has prevailed in the standing committees with respect to the problem of French reporting. I think it ought to be noted that considerable flexibility is being observed by the special committee on procedure and organization, in that the hon. member who has moved concurrence in this report is recommending to the house the installation of recording apparatus on a trial basis, which will ultimately involve an expenditure of public funds. It ought to be indicated at this point that a special prerogative is involved here on the

part of the government, which will be discharged in the proper way at a later date.


Mr. Speaker:: It has been moved by the hon. member for Edmonton West, seconded by the hon. member for Lapointe, that by unanimous consent this house do now concur in the seventh report of the special committee on procedure and organization. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, may I just say a word on this, or is that not permitted?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Vancouver East.


Harold Edward Winch: I apologize if I did not catch your eye but I did want to make a very brief statement on this matter. In no way whatsoever do I oppose the suggestion which has been made or the principle involved, but I do want to make clear, because no one else has, the semi-hypocritical attitude involved. Mention was made of a committee meeting some two weeks ago which had to be postponed because a French reporter was not there. Mr. Speaker, an English reporter was there, and we in the House of Commons have a marvellous translation branch. Anything taken down at that committee would have been available in both languages within a matter of hours.
You may ask why I raise this point. It is because we now have a recommendation to instal electronic equipment. I agree with that recommendation, but I would draw to your attention that electronic equipment takes down the exact words spoken. There is no simultaneous translation by electronic machine. There is no such animal as a bilingual electronic machine taking something down in one language and immediately translating it into another.


An hon. Member:: Oh, yes, there is.


Harold Edward Winch: No, sir, there is not. The only reason I have got up now is to speak not only in support of this motion but to draw to the attention of others that it will still require the services of the most efficient translation branch of the House of Commons to translate from one language to another what is taken in by the electronic brain. Let us not forget that.


Mr. Arnold Peters (Timiskaming):: Mr. Speaker, I also support the motion which has been moved, but I should like to ask whether any consideration has been given to the training of the necessary personnel to operate this

equipment. It seems to me that we are now making a change in the system which has been followed up to now. There has been the recommendation that the debates in this house as well as in committees be electronically recorded, but it seems to me that this will only be successful if the proper people are trained. Electronic equipment has been operating in some committees but has been controlled by people who do not know how to use it. It appears to me that this is very ineffectual, and that it retards the extension of the operation considerably. There are no doubt many hon. members who can remember being in committees when the man operating the switches has not turned on the right microphone and the squeals are more easily heard than the voices. Therefore we must have trained personnel, and this is a matter the house has not given much consideration to in the past.
I only hope that when we use this equipment, operators with a high degree of integrity are employed; because electronic records can be changed, and that is one of the reasons they have not been accepted in the past. I suggest that the committee give consideration to the establishment of a branch with properly trained personnel to operate this equipment so that it will prove satisfactory, and so that we will be able to extend it into some other fields. I hope this is done immediately so that we are not again faced with having half trained people operating highly complicated equipment.


Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Montmorency):: Mr. Speaker, a few words only to say that our group also holds translators and interpreters in great respect. However, we think it is normal, especially in the capital of the country and in our parliament, that members be able to speak in their mother tongue and be interpreted, or at least to have their speech recorded as delivered in the reports. That is the reason why a proposal was made for a tape-recording system.
In the same way that the federal government found, to its surprise, that the Quebec pension plan was a considered and well-thought-out plan, I feel it might be profitable to consult the Quebec government concerning the system it uses to report the official debates. We are told that it works very well. This is another field where we could advantageously follow the pattern set by the province of Quebec.
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Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. 0. G. Hahn (Broadview) presented the first report of the special committee on defence and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Gerard Loiselle (St. Ann) presented the second report, in French and in English, of the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fisher: 1.	With regard to the Ookpik toy design, what is the exact bibliographical identity of the catalogue in which the officials of the Department of Trade and Commerce found it?
2.	Who is the publisher of this catalogue?
3.	Was trade and commerce shown a model or replica, other than the catalogue design, before it had an Ookpik made up and, if so, when and by whom?
Answer: 1. Canadian Eskimo Fine Crafts, issued under the authority of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, by the queen's printer and controller of stationery, Ottawa, in 1963 as item Cat. R2-2463.
2.	The queen's printer on behalf of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
3.	No. On request, the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources had an Ookpik made up for use by the Department of Trade and Commerce.


REQUEST FOR GRANTS TO UNIVERSITIES
Mr. Orlikow: Is the government giving consideration to the requests of the Canadian universities foundation made in their brief to the Prime Minister in May 1963 "that the parliament of Canada enact legislation authorizing expenditure of $300 million for matching capital grants to universities and colleges for projects on which commitments are made between July 1,	1963 and June 30,	1966;" and
"that the federal grant for each approved capital

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project be equal to not more than 50 per cent of the cost of the project;" and "that In each of the years 1963-64, 1964-65, and 1965-66 a grant of $500,000 be made by the government of Canada to the government of Nova Scotia for distribution to the universities of that province, and a grant of $200,000 be made to the government of New Brunswick for distribution to the universities of that province"?


Mr. Davis:: The government is re-examining these requests and other university financial requests in the light of its existing financial commitments including the revisions proposed in federal-provincial fiscal arrangements.


R.C.M.P. MOTOR VEHICLE PURCHASES, CUMBERLAND, N.S.
Mr. Coales: How many motor vehicles were purchased by the R.C.M. Police in Cumberland from April 1, 1963, to March 31, 1964 and (a) from what firm, or firms, were these vehicles purchased (b) what


Mr. Deschaielels:: Renovations	$6,351.26
Furniture	$1,248.23


CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN B.C. PRISON INMATES AND MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Howard: 1.	Since January 1, 1960, has the commissioner of penitentiaries issued any instructions to the effect that any inmate or inmates in the B.C. penitentiary must get special permission to correspond with members of parliament and that copies of the said correspondence must be provided and, if so (a) when were these instructions given (b) to how many inmates do they apply, and (c) what was the reason for so issuing them?
2.	Has any such inmate been prevented from writing to a member of parliament or denied permission to so write and, if so, what are the reasons therefor?
3.	Has any communication from a member of parliament to an inmate in the B.C. penitentiary been withheld from or delayed in transmission to the said inmate and, if so, for how long and for what reason?


Mr. Favreau:: 1. No.
2.	No.
3.	Yes, a communication from a member of parliament, addressed to an inmate, dated December 19, 1963 was received at the penitentiary on December 21, 1963. Because of the nature of the contents the warden withheld the correspondence with the intention of discussing the subject of communication with the writer during his impending visit to the institution. This discussion was held on December 27 and the communication was transmitted to the inmate on the same date.

was the amount of the lowest bid (c) was it submitted by the successful tenderer and (d) what other firms were invited to tender in each instance?


Guy Favreau: A total of three vehicles were purchased in the electoral district of Cumberland during the period referred to, of which two were required for Amherst and the other for Pugwash. (a) Claude W. Carter Ltd., Springhill, N.S.; (b) $4,212.20 (three vehicles 1 bid); (c) Yes; (d) Cumberland Equipment Limited and T. D. Brennan Limited, both of Amherst.


FURNITURE AND RENOVATION EXPENDITURES, PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE
Mr. Jorgenson: What were the amounts spent on renovations and furniture for the Prime Minister's residence at 24 Sussex drive for the fiscal years ending 196162-63 and 64?
1961-62	1962-63	1963-64$5,518.31	$3,040.60	$9,955.95$1,016.02	$1,814.74	$7,433.16


FEDERAL PENITENTIARY INMATES AND STAFF
Mr. Orlikow: 1.	What is the total number of inmates in federal penitentiaries as of the last date for which the annual report was prepared?
2.	What is the total staff employed in these penitentiaries and, of these, how many are guards, teachers, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.?
3.	What qualifications are required for the professional staff?
4.	What are the minimum qualifications for guards employed in penitentiaries?
5.	Is there a compulsory training course for people hired as guards and, if so, what type of course, and how long does it take to complete this course?


Mr. Macdonald:: 1. As of March 31, 1964, there were 7,648 inmates on register in federal penitentiaries.
2.	Authorized staff establishment penitentiary service exclusive of headquarters and correctional staff colleges, as of March 31,
1964:
Medical
Physicians, full time	1
part time	3
contract	7
Psychiatrists, part time	8
Dentists, hospitals officers, assistant hospital officers and dental technicians	HI
Inmate training division	60
Classification staff	72

Educational staff	51
Recreational staff	23
Vocational staff	71
Custodial staff	1,287
Administration, service and supply	836
Industrial staff	164
Administrative staff, i.e. wardens,	
chaplains, clerks, etc.	218
Total	2,912
3.	Physicians and surgeons, graduation with an M.D. degree from a recognized university with certification as a specialist by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons. In Quebec such qualifications are granted by their accredited colleges.
Psychiatrists, graduation from a recognized university with an M.D. degree and studies which have led to the granting of a certificate by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Dentists, graduation from a recognized university with a dental degree.
Chaplain, completion of university or theological seminar, pastoral experience in community; preferable:	correctional or social
work.
Teachers and educational, (adult education), instructors, completion and elementary teachers certification; minimum of four years' teaching experience in community; preferable: university degree or university courses, if any, of the social sciences.
Classification staff, university graduation preferred in education, psychology, sociology or social work.
4.	For employment in the penitentiary service an applicant must be from 23 to 40 years of age, of a minimum height of 5'8" and physically fit; possess an education (minimum) of grade 10 (grade 9, Quebec); be a person of good character and neat in appearance. Candidates are submitted to educational tests and to psychological evaluation as to their suitability for carrying out custodial duties. Proven satisfactory police or military experience would be a decided asset for any applicant.
5.	Effective May 4, 1964, a compulsory three months' induction training course commences at the Quebec, Ontario and western correctional staff colleges for all newly appointed custodial officers prior to appointment to an institution.
This course consists of theoretical and practical training in the following subjects: organization and administration of penitentiary service; correctional work and custodial
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procedures; inmate supervision, training and discipline; weapons and gas training; physical training, self defences and drill; communications, operation and procedures; crowd control and emergencies.


COMBINES INVESTIGATION INTO DRUG PRICES, B.C.
Mr. Pritfie: Has the director of Investigations and research (Combines Investigation Act) received a request from ten individuals in British Columbia asking for an investigation into a recent order of the B.C. pharmaceutical association, approved by provincial order in council No. 3366, dated December 31, 1963 and published in the B.C. Gazette of January 24, 1964 which restricts the competitive sale of drugs and if so, is an investigation now taking place?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The information received is being considered by the director of investigation and research, Combines Investigation Act, to determine whether the situation is such as to warrant formal inquiry under the act. Since the letter was received, however, it has been confirmed that a private action has been instituted in the supreme court of British Columbia challenging the validity of the above regulations or bylaws and the director will of course have to take note that the matter is at present sub judice.


LEGISLATION TO ALTER QUEBEC-NEWFOUND-LAND BOUNDARY
Mr. Coates: Does the government Intend to bring legislation forward to alter the boundaries of the provinces of Quebec and Newfoundland as required by section 3 of the British North America Act of 1871?


John (Jack) Davis: The consent of the legislatures of the provinces affected is required before the parliament of Canada may alter the boundaries thereof. The federal government has not been informed that such consent has been given by the provinces concerned.


PRINTING OF SOCIAL INSURANCE CARDS
Mr. Hales: 1.	Were tenders called for the purchase of the paper used to print the social security cards and, if not, for what reason?
2.	If paper requested could only be produced by one company, why was the paper stock not changed to a type or kind procurable from more than one source?
3.	What are the names and addresses of the firms which submitted tenders for the printing of the social security cards?
4.	Why were these cards not printed by the queen's printer?
5.	Who printed the instruction leaflet which accompanied the social security cards (UIC-543F 12-64) and the leaflet to the employer (UIC-5816 12-63)?
6.	How many of each were ordered and (a) what was the cost of each (b) were tenders called

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(c)	who submitted tenders (name and address)
(d)	was the lowest tender accepted and who submitted it?


Mr. Drury:: 1. (a) No. (b) Only one source of supply.
2.	The specifications for the paper required for the social insurance number cards could be met by only one mill. The first of many requisites was the necessity for rag content and the company awarded the contract was the only manufacturer of rag bristol. Experiments by this mill have also produced a chemical additive which provides the extended life expectancy required for the stock.
3.	Crain Business Systems, Ottawa Sales Office, P.O. box 392; Data Business Forms Ltd., 87 Brydon drive, Rexdale, Ontario; Mount Royal Press Ltd., 5740 Ferrier st., Montreal, P.Q., Moore Business Forms Ltd., 133i Besserer st., Ottawa, Ontario; Drummond Business Forms, Drummondville, P.Q.
4.	Efficient printing of the social insurance number cards calls for equipment not available at' the Canadian government printing bureau.
5.	The correct numbers for these forms are UIC-543-F(2-64) and UIC-581-G(2-64). The Canadian government printing bureau printed instruction leaflet UIC-543-F(2-64) and form UIC-581-G(2-64) was printed by: Tremblay & Dion Inc., 725 Cote d'Abraham, Quebec 4, Quebec.
6.	(i) Form UIC-543-F(2-64): 4,199,000 were ordered, (a) The cost for paper and printing was $7,100.69. (b) No-Work done by government printing bureau; (c) N/A; (d) N/A.
(ii) Form UIC-581-G(2-64):	500,000	(a)
$4,923.07 was the total cost of paper and printing; (b) Yes; (c) Laval Specialties Ltd., 18 Labelle St., Lavalle des Rapides, Que.; Ronalds Federated Ltd., 6306 Park Ave., Montreal, P.Q.; Ateliers des Sourds-Muets, 65 ouest, rue de Castelnau, Montreal, Que.; Mtl. Litho Co. Ltd., 1685 Ontario St. E., Montreal, Que.; Techno-Lith Ltd., 1525 St. Dominique St., Montreal, Que.; Tremblay & Dion Inc., 725 Cote d'Abraham, Quebec 4, Que. (d) Yes, the lowest tender was accepted and contract awarded to: Tremblay & Dion Inc., 725 Cote d'Abraham, Quebec 4, Que.


INCREASE IN PENSIONS OF RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS
Mr. Mather: Is the government during this session giving consideration to making amendments to the Public Service Pension Adjustment Act, or to any means of increasing the pensions of federal civil servants already retired?


Mr. Benson:: See statement on this subject in Hansard, April 21, 1964, pages 2438 and 2439.


JUSTICE DEPARTMENT EXPENDITURES
Mr. Rondeau: What were the estimated and actual expenditures of the Department of Justice for each of the last ten years and, for each such year, what was spent in the province of Quebec?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: Expend-
Amount of	Actual	itureYear	Estimates	Expenditures	Quebec$	$	$1953-54	15,927,444	15,017,395	3,794,0001954-55	16,965,142	16,423,823	4,056,0001955-56	18,118,875	17,317,470	4,351,0001956-57	19,928,918	19,065,569	4,638,0001957-58	20,763,128	19,929,268	4,763,0001958-59	24,960,379	24,345,475	5,744,0001959-60	29,121,103	27,845,867	10,148,0001960-61	28,443,190	27,694,612	7,761,0001961-62	34,989,708	32,580,185	8,465,0001962-63	37,647,217	34,531,655	8,974,000


INTEREST ON NATIONAL DEBT
Mr. Dionne: How much has interest on the national debt cost the government of Canada since 1867?
[Translation\
Answer: Gross cost of interest on the national debt to the government of Canada from July 1, 1867, to March 31, 1964, was $15,287 million (including an estimated amount of $952 million for the fiscal year 1963-64).
Note-Includes interest on unmatured debt and where applicable interest on deposit and trust accounts and on annuity, insurance and pension accounts.


PROGRAM FOR CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND FACILITIES
Mr. Orlikow: Has the government adopted a long range plan for the building and programming of correctional institutions and facilities and, if so, has this program been discussed with organizations interested in correction such as the Canadian corrections association, John Howard and Elizabeth Fry societies?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The government has
adopted from time to time, in this connection, portions of the report of the Department of Justice correctional planning committee, 1960. Organizations interested in

corrections were consulted by the committee when its report was being prepared.


*SITE FOR PENITENTIARY, ST. PIE DE BAGOT, QUE.
Mr. Ricard: For what purpose will the government use the four farms which were purchased in the Grand Rang St. Frangois in the parish of St. Pie de Bagot, Quebec, on which the treasury board had authorized the construction of a penitentiary?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: This property will be used for the construction of a medium security institution when another institution of that type is required in the province of Quebec.


FEDERAL PRISONS, QUEBEC
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What is the number of federal prisons in the province of Quebec?
2.	During the past year, what was the number of inmates in each, and how many employees were working therein?
3.	In each of those prisons, what was the number of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers trained in correctional work?
4.	Do the guards in those prisons receive any training for their duties?
5.	Has the construction of new federal prisons been undertaken in the province of Quebec during the past year and, if so, where, and what will be the cost of each?
6.	For what reasons was the site of each prison chosen?
7.	What is the cost of each?
8.	How many men and women were transferred from Quebec prisons to prisons in other provinces during the past year and (a) where is each prison situated (b) how many inmates were transferred to each?
[Translation1
Answer: 1. Seven (7).
2.
Maximum security
institution	Inmates Employees
St. Vincent de Paul
penitentiary	888	401
Medium security institutions		
Leclerc Institution	455	206Federal Training Centre	421	232Penitentiary's Industrial	Annex	190	60Minimum security institutions	Gatineau Correction Camp	42	20Valleyfield Institution	88	32Penitentiary's Farm Annex	76	14Total 2,160	965
3. Maximum security institution: St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary: two psychiatrists, one psychologist and eight classification officers.
20220-216J
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Medium security institutions: Leclerc institution: one psychologist and three classification officers.
Federal training centre: one psychologist and three classification officers.
Penitentiary's industrial annex: one classification officer.
Minimum security institutions:	Gatineau
correction camp: one classification officer. Val-leyfield institution: one classification officer.
Penitentiary's farm annex: one classification officer.
4.	Each new member of the guard's service is required to complete a recruits training course of three months period. After that course, the new employee is submitted to a three months probation period. Besides, every member of the guard's service must follow every year a training period designed to teach him the new penology systems.
5.	The construction of a medium security institution was undertaken at Cowansville, province of Quebec, at the cost of approximately $6 million.
6.	That site was chosen for the following reasons:
(a)	The site is far enough from Montreal to provide the required security and close enough to permit easy access to professional, medical and social resources.
(b)	The site chosen is located, near Cowansville, in a region where no housing development is anticipated for a period of 50 to 75 years, because Cowansville is developing rather in the direction of Dunham, province of Quebec.
(c)	Public utility services are provided in adequate quantity.
(d)	The road system and transportation leading to the site are adequate to facilitate visits for the inmates' families.
(e)	Six (6) neighbouring municipalities, situated within 15 miles of the chosen site, total a population of 50,873 (1961). Those conditions ensure a source of continuous manpower for custodial services as well as administration. The services of professionals, such as physicians, dentists, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, teachers and chaplains are available or can be obtained from adjacent centres.
(f)	The city of Cowansville has elementary schools and high schools, hospitals, Roman Catholic and Protestant churches and all civic facilities which make possible the development of family life. That factor becomes important if it is wanted to get the continuous services of a qualified staff.

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(g)	The construction of the eastern townships throughway, with its layout situated near the institution, will enable travellers to reach Montreal in less than one hour. That will certainly facilitate the keeping of professional relations between the institution staff and universities, clinics, social or government agencies, etc.
There are several social clubs in Cowans-ville, such as the Kiwanis Club, the Rotary Club, the Knights of Columbus, artistic groups and religious organizations and so on, which are all ready to co-operate in the rehabilitation of inmates.
7.	About $6 million.
8.	Inmates, men and women, were transferred from the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary to the penitentiaries in other provinces during the last year, as follows: to the Kingston penitentiary, Kingston, Ont., 17 men; to the Women's Prison Kingston, Ont., five women; to the Dorchester Penitentiary, Dorchester, N.B., 17 men; to the Manitoba Penitentiary, Stony Mountain, Man., four men; to the Saskatchewan Penitentiary, Prince Albert, Sask., four men; to the British Columbia Penitentiary, New Westminster, B.C., two men.


R.C.M.P. BARRACKS, WILLOW BUNCH, SASK.
Mr. Watson (Assiniboia): 1.	Is the government giving consideration to building a new R.C.M.P. barracks at Willow Bunch. Saskatchewan?
2.	What does the government use as a guide to the necessity for new office and living quarters for the R.C.M.P.?
3.	Who owns the building this detachment now occupies?


Guy Favreau: 1. No, not at the present time.
2.	The permanency of the local R.C.M. Police detachment and the availability of suitable accommodation for rent..'
3.	The town of Willow Bunch, Saskatchewan.


KRAFT COMPANY CONTROL OF CHEESE EXPORTS TO U.S.
Mr. Lalulippe: Has an investigation been launched under the Combines Investigation Act into the allegations made by Mr. Donald C. MacDonald to the effect that the Kraft Company, which operates in Canada as well as in the United States exercises a control on the exports and sales of Canadian Cheddar to the United States?


Donald Stovel Macdonald: The director informs me that press reports of Mr. MacDonald's allegations indicate that the situation relates to import quotas imposed under United States legislation and therefore would not appear to be a matter coming within the purview

of the Combines Investigation Act. Should further information indicate otherwise, however, the director may be expected to take any action which the statute may require.


JUVENILE DELINQUENTS IN FEDERAL INSTITUTIONS
Mr. Latulippe: 1.	How many juvenile delinquents from the province of Quebec are detained in federal institutions?
2.	Are measures taken to separate juvenile delinquents from adult prisoners?

Answer: 1. Eight (8), as at December 31, 1963.
2. While there are no special facilities for the segregation of juvenile delinquents, they are placed in special sections of the penitentiary or detained in institutions for juvenile delinquents.


RENTAL OF WORLD EXHIBITION SITES
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many sites have now been rented on the grounds of the 1967 world exhibition?
2.	What was the rent in each case?
3.	What is the total amount received to date from rentals?
[Translation1
Answer: 1. One.
2.	In this case, $10,000.
3.	See answer to No. 2.
IText1


R.C.M.P. AUXILIARY POLICE
Mr. Barnett: 1.	Are auxiliary police being enrolled with the R.C.M.P. and, if so, in what provinces is this being done and under what legislative or governmental authority?
2.	What are the duties to be performed by auxiliary police and what course of training do they receive?
3.	What remuneration or emoluments do auxiliary police receive?


Guy Favreau: 1. Auxiliary police have been enrolled with the R.C.M. Police in the provinces of British Columbia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. This has been done by provincial order in council which is authorized under the provincial civil defence act.
2. The duties of these auxiliary police are to assist the R.C.M. Police in effectively discharging its provincial duties in time of national emergency or natural disaster. Their training consists of instruction in the following subjects, which is carried out by the R.C.M. Police: (a) criminal law; (b) crowd control; (c) discipline; (d) emergency planning; (e) first aid; (f) foot drill; (g) general police work; (h) small arms training.

3. The auxiliary police do not receive any pay during training. If called out for actual service, they would be paid by the provincial government at a rate comparable with other provincial civil defence workers. They are provided, without cost, with a uniform of an approved type.


BANK OF CANADA PUBLICATIONS
Mr. Cole (Chicoutimi): 1.	What reports and publications are published by the Bank of Canada?
2.	Are these publications printed in both official languages and, if not, will they be so in the near future?
3.	Which banks and other financial institutions are regular buyers of treasury bills?

Answer: 1. Bank of Canada annual report. Bank of Canada statistical summary. Loans of government of Canada and loans guaranteed by the government of Canada. Bank of Canada, statement of assets and liabilities. Bank of Canada, weekly financial statistics.
2.	Yes, with the exception of the Bank of Canada statistical summary. The Bank of Canada is studying the technical aspects of producing a French edition.
3.	Government of Canada treasury bills are bearer securities which are being continually traded in the capital market and there is no complete record of the names of investors involved in such transactions. In any case it is not considered in the public interest to make public individual holdings of government of Canada securities, other than in regular statutory returns and official statistics.
Weekly financial statistics published by the Bank of Canada show holdings of government of Canada treasury bills as between Bank of Canada, chartered banks, government of Canada accounts and the general public. Amortized values of month end holdings of such treasury bills by individual chartered banks are available in the "Statement of Assets and Liabilities" of the chartered banks published monthly as a supplement to the Canada Gazette.

Questions
the civil service commission carry out a competition and will the Royal Canadian Legion, Springhill, be notified by the civil service commission of its intentions in this regard?


Mr. Lamonlagne:: 1. David Brown, normally a full time fireman-labourer in the federal building, Springhill, N.S., was assigned the duties of caretaker only during the absence, on sick leave, of the regular caretaker.
2. No, since the present caretaker who was referred in 1951 by the civil service commission has not indicated that he intends to resign.


USE OF URANIUM IN POWER PROJECTS
Mr. Webb: 1.	Did the Minister of Trade and Commerce make an announcement to the effect that Canada has moved to the world front in provision of nuclear power projects?
2.	What steps is the government taking to assure Canadian General Electric and Westinghouse companies, major producers of nuclear power equipment, that ample supplies of uranium will be available thereby giving a guarantee for the employment of Canadian miners?
3.	Is the government ensuring that the uranium used will be Canadian produced?
Answer: 1. The Minister of Trade and Commerce made an announcement on April 27 that agreements signed with India would, inter alia "place Canada in the competitive forefront of the world market for similar atomic power stations"; i.e. similar to the CANDU stations at Douglas Point and Rajasthan.
2.	Canadian firms producing fuel for nuclear power plants are well aware that ample supplies of uranium are available.
3.	For reactors operated in Canada, Canadian uranium will be used. For reactors abroad that are supplied by Canada, the government will endeavour to insure that Canadian uranium fuel producers are allowed to compete for the imported fuel requirements of the foreign operator. It is relevant to add that Canadian uranium fuel selling prices are highly competitive.



PARLIAMENT HILL


Mr. Coales: 1.	Was David Brown, Springhill, appointed fulltime caretaker for the Springhill federal building without a civil service competition being called for the position and without notification to the Royal Canadian Legion, Springhill, of the vacancy in question?
2.	Does a vacancy exist for the position of caretaker at the Springhill armouries and, if so, will

Question No. 951-Mr. Korchinski:
L Was the removal and alternate installation of lights on the front lawn of the parliament buildings done by a contractor and, if so, who was granted the contract?
2.	What was the cost of removal and installation?
3.	What was done with the electrical cables which were removed?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. Yes, Bedard Girard Ltd. (Ottawa).
2. $78,685.

Questions
3. Old unusable wiring removed from ducts, etc., is to be removed from the site at the general contractor's expense and becomes his property.



R.C.M.P. MOTOR VEHICLE PURCHASES, CUMBERLAND, N.S.

Mr. Armstrong: How many motor vehicles were purchased by the R.C.M. Police in Cumberland from April 1, 1962 to March 31, 1963 and (a) from what firm, or firms, were these vehicles purchased (b) what was the amount of the lowest bid (c) was it submitted by the successful tenderer, and (d) what other firms were invited to tender in each instance?


Guy Favreau: One motor vehicle, (a) Macintosh Motors Ltd., Parrsboro, Nova Scotia; (b) $1,034.95; (c) Yes; (d) Cameron and Wilson Ltd., Parrsboro, N.S.; Sargent's Garage, Parrsboro, N.S.
^DEPARTMENTAL CHANGES RESPECTING PRINTING BUREAU


Mr. Pascoe: 1.	What changes or transfers from department to department have taken place since May 1, 1963, in connection with the printing bureau, and on what dates?
2.	Were these changes made under order in council and, if so, was each of such orders in council published in the Canada Gazette?


Mr. Nicholson:: In so far as the Departments of Industry and Defence Production are concerned:
1. Order in council P.C. 1963-1130 dated July 25, 1963, transferred to the Minister of Industry the powers, duties or functions of the Secretary of State of Canada under the Public Printing and Stationery Act.
Order in council P.C. 1963-1254 dated August 21, 1963, transferred to the Department of Defence Production the control or supervision of the procurement purchasing and stores branch, the production branch, the outside printing production branch, and the supporting services contained in the departmental secretary's branch, the administrative services branch and the financial services branch of the department of public printing and stationery.
Order in council P.C. 1963-1450 dated October 3, 1963, transferred to the department of public printing and stationery from the Department of Defence Production, the responsibility for the procurement of print for books and publications.
Order in council P.C. 1964-156 dated February 3, 1964, transferred to the Secretary of State of Canada the powers, duties or func-

tions of the Minister of Industry relating to the department of public printing and stationery.
2. Yes, these changes and transfers were made under order in council. Such orders in council are not normally published in the Canada Gazette.



APPLICATIONS UNDER MUNICIPAL LOANS ACT, N.S.

Mr. Armsirong: Have requests been received from municipalities in Nova Scotia under the terms of the Municipal Development and Loan Act and, if so, what requests have been received?


Edgar John Benson: Two requests have been received. These are (a) the Caledonia power and water board, Glace Bay, for a loan amount of $160,734 and (b) the town of Amherst and county of Cumberland for a loan amount of $555,003.



TARIFF BOARD DECISION ON COLD HEADING WIRE

Mr. Irvine: 1.	As a result of certain representations made by members of the steel alloys industry in November 1963, has the tariff board reached a decision on cold heading wire and, if so, what is the decision?
2.	If not, when will a decision be reached and reported?


Edgar John Benson: 1. The tariff board has not yet forwarded to the Minister of Finance its report on wire and wire products.
2. The board's report is not expected until the end of the year.



COMMISSIONERS OF COUNTRIES PARTICIPATING IN WORLD FAIR

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What are the names of the commissioners representing the various countries which have agreed to take part in the 1967 world fair?
2.	How many of them have so far visited the site of the world fair?

Answer: 1. To date the Netherlands and Belgium have appointed their section general commissioners to take part in the 1967 world fair.
They are: H. E. Simon Hendrik Visser; Mr. Jan Albert Goris.
The Canadian government has appointed Mr. Leslie H. Brown as general commissioner for the participation of the Canadian government.
2. These three persons have already visited the world fair site.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMANTS, ROUYN-VAL D'OR, QUE.

Mr. Laprise: 1.	How many appeals were made to the board of referees by claimants at the unemployment insurance commission office at (a) Rouyn (b) Val d'Or, during the year 1963 and, of that number (i) how many decisions were modified (ii) how many were maintained?
2.	How many claimants were considered ineligible because they left their jobs voluntarily?
3.	How many claimants were considered ineligible because they refused to accept the job offered?
4.	What has been the total number of unemployed claimants who registered at the unemployment insurance commission office at (a) Houyn (b) Val d'Or for the years 1960, 1961, 1963, and 1964?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1.
No. of
Appeals Allowed Disallowed
Rouyn	232	34	198Val d'Or	122	10	1122.	586 in Rouyn and 536 in Val d'Or.3.	334 in Rouyn and 147 in Val d'Or.4.	Information not available. However, following is the number of initial and renewal claims received in the period concerned.Rouyn	Val d'Or
Initial Renewal Initial Renewal
1960	9,994	3,684	7,125	3,2491961	9,145	3,687	6,400	3,0121962	8,697	3,290	5,854	2,5671963	8,234	3,374	6,063	2,5741964 (to 31	3,067 March)	1,271	2,214	858
Many of the claimants filing renewal claims would be the same as those filing initial claims in the same year.



INVITATIONS TO CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Mr. Badanai:: The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has received an invitation from Mr. John Poussette to inspect the condition of historic totem poles in the electoral district of Skeena in the summer of 1964. (a) Mr. Poussette has been advised by Mr. Tremblay that it would please him to accept this kind invitation but that it is not yet
Questions
certain when the minister will visit British Columbia or how much time will be available to him for this purpose. If the minister cannot join Mr. Poussette personally a senior official of the Indian affairs branch will be asked to go along with Mr. Poussette and report to the minister, (b) Not applicable.



INVITATIONS TO FINANCE MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Finance been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Edgar John Benson: No.



INVITATIONS TO INDUSTRY MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Industry and Minister of Defence Production been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: No.



INVITATIONS TO LABOUR MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Labour been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No.



INVITATIONS TO MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation' by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Mr. Benidickson:: No.



INVITATIONS TO POSTMASTER GENERAL, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Postmaster General been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and if so

Questions
with respect to each such Invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: No.



INVITATIONS TO PUBLIC WORKS MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Public Works been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No.



INVITATIONS TO SECRETARY OF STATE, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Secretary of State been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?


Maurice Lamontagne: No.



INVITATIONS TO TRADE AND COMMERCE MINISTER, SKEENA CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Howard: Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce been invited to attend any function or visit any place in the electoral district of Skeena for 1964, and, if so, with respect to each such invitation, by whom was the invitation given, for what function or purpose, at what time or times, and has it been (a) accepted or (b) declined?
Answer: 1. Prince Rupert chamber of commerce. To inspect port facilities. Invitation extended January 3, 1964. Declined. Invitation not received until return to Ottawa, January 5.
2. Mr. Frank Windsor, Aluminum Company of Canada, Ottawa, on behalf of the associated chambers of commerce of central British Columbia and their Alaskan affiliates. To speak to delegates, annual meeting in Kitimat. June 4, 5 and 6. Declined.



GRUNTHAL, MAN. POST OFFICE

Mr. Jorgenson: 1.	What is the revenue of the post office at Grunthal, Manitoba, for the year ended March 31, 1963?
2.	Has a survey been made to determine if the Grunthal district requires better post office facilities?

3.	Is it the intention of the government to construct a new post office at an early date?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: 1. $3,378.13.
2.	The Grunthal post office belongs to the class of offices where it is the responsibility of the postmaster to provide satisfactory premises to house the office as a condition of employment. A work-load survey was made in late March 1964 at which time it was ascertained that this post office still belongs to that class. However, it was determined that the existing premises are barely adequate to meet the requirements of the community and our field officials have been requested to conduct a further investigation in this regard.
3.	No. As this office belongs to the class of offices where the postmaster is required to provide adequate premises, no action will be taken to provide crown owned accommodation.



TRAINING OF UNEMPLOYED

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many people have enrolled In the program of training for the unemployed under schedule M of the technical and vocational agreements with the provinces?
2.	Of those enrolled, how many (a) completed the courses they began (b) failed to complete their training programs?
3.	Has the government received any information as to the reasons why people who begin the courses do not complete their training?
4.	Has the government received any complaints from the provinces that the living allowances are insufficient to permit those taking the courses to complete them, or received reports that some married students do not have enough to eat?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. 32,825 persons were enrolled under program 5, "training for the unemployed" in 1963.
2.	(a) 17,627 persons completed training in 1963. (b) 13,050 failed to complete their training programs in the same period. The remainder were still in training at the end of the year.
3.	While complete information in this regard is not available, a number of trainees discontinue their training to take employment while others discontinue because they find it difficult to study after a long absence from school.
4.	No.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMANTS

Mr. Ricard: How many registered claimants for unemployment insurance were there in Canada at the end of each month between January 1, 1962 and April 30. 1963?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No. of Registered
	Claimants
January, 1962	698,538
February	718,668
March	687,450
April	564,478
May	263,862
June	214,311
July	211,975
August	198,694
September	197,799
October	244,140
November	374,191
December	591,965
January, 1963	703,081
February	720,461
March	687,318
April	567,471
training of	OLDER WORKERS


Mr. Rynard: Has the government taken any steps to ensure that those employees hired under the on the job training program for workers over 45 are, in fact, being trained?


Mr. Byrne:: The employer in applying for approval of his job vacancy under the provisions of the older worker employment and training incentive program describes the training to be given the worker. Each month in applying for payment of the incentive he certifies that he has conformed with the training and other provisions of the program. An evaluation of all aspects of the program is being carried out including training.



HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS, MCBETH POINT, LAKE WINNIPEG

Mr. Stefanson: 1.	What improvements has the government planned for the harbour at McBeth point on lake Winnipeg?
2.	What is the estimated cost and when will this work be carried out?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. The department is investigating possible improvements to the breakwater facilities at McBeth point.
2.	This information will not be available before completion of the investigation.



FLAG DESIGNS

Mr. Coates: How many flag designs have been received in the office of the Secretary of State?


Maurice Lamontagne: 2,995 designs.
Questions



CARGO TONNAGE, SAINT JOHN, N.B.

Mr. Bell: What has been the general cargo tonnage, loaded and unloaded at the port of Saint John, N.B.. each year since 1950, expressed as a percentage of the total tonnage of all types of cargo for that port (both excluding and including crude petroleum) ?
Answer: General cargo, port of St. John, N.B., expressed as a percentage of the total tonnage of all cargo.1, *[DOT]8
General cargo expressed as a percentage of all cargo.
1951s	60.2	per	cent1952	46.1	>*	tt1953	43.1	a	tt1954	40.4	tt	It1955	38.2	tt	It1956	37.4	tt	tt1957	34.3	tt	tt1958	24.6	tt	tt1959	24.8	tt	tt1960	17.0	tt	tt1961	11.7	tt	it1962	9.4	t>	tt
'General cargo consists of those commodities which are reported to us as "general cargo". The tonnage of "general cargo" has declined because more commodities which were formerly reported as "general cargo" are now being reported by specific commodity name.
'Crude petroleum is not included in general cargo figures.
'Figures for coastwise tonnage movements are not available and are not included in this total for 1951.



PUBLIC WORKS LAND, DRAYTON VALLEY, ALTA.

Mr. Horner (Jasper-: Edson):
1.	Does the federal Department of Public Works own land in Drayton Valley, Alberta and, if so. Is a public building to be constructed on it and when?
2.	If the land is not to be used for such a purpose, for what reasons was such a decision taken?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. The federal Department of Public Works owns property in Drayton Valley, Alberta, which it is holding as a future public building site. No decision has been taken as to when construction may commence.
2.	Not applicable.



*SOUVENIR SETS OP CANADIAN COINS

Mr. Rynard: In view of the great demand for souvenir sets of Canadian coins from the mint which has necessitated a closing date of April 30 for further

Orders for Returns
orders this year, will the Minister of Finance give serious consideration to additional staff at the Royal Canadian Mint in order that the demands of the public may be satisfied and that this branch of government may continue to show a profit?


Edgar John Benson: The minister is giving serious consideration to enlarging and improving the capacity of the mint to meet the substantial demands for coin. It will not, however, be possible to meet the demands for souvenir sets of coins this year without prejudicing the ability of the mint to meet the regular demand for coin for circulation, notwithstanding the profit that might be made from souvenir sets. Additional staff alone is not sufficient to meet both demands.



WATER LEVELS, LAKE HURON AND GEORGIAN BAY

Mr. Smith: What effect will the increase of the flow of water from lake Ontario into the St. Lawrence river channel have on the level of the water in lake Huron and Georgian bay?


Mr. Laing:: None.



NEW CITIZENS, BRUCE COUNTY, ONT.

Mr. Loney: In the county of Bruce, what are the names and addresses of the new Canadians who received citizenship in the years 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964?


Hubert Badanai: The records of the department in respect to persons granted Canadian citizenship are maintained only under the name of the individual applicant and consequently this information is not available.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


YUKON TERRITORY


Mr. Nielsen: With respect to the operations of the Department of Public Works in the Yukon Territory, in each case where the answer to part (iv) of question 1,237 (October 4, 1963) is given by sessional paper No. 270, December 9, 1963, as "yes (quotations)" (a) from whom were such quotations requested (b) what was the amount of each quotation (c) what procedure was adopted to obtain such quotations (d) why was it not practicable to advertise for public tenders?
Return tabled.



&quot;HANSARD&quot; SAVING BY ELIMINATING FRENCH TEXT

Mr. Marcoux: What public funds have been saved on each issue of the English debates since French texts were excluded therefrom?
Return tabled.



IMPORTS AND EXPORTS, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What was the volume and the value of the main exports and imports with the countries of the organization of American states during the past five years?
2.	Have any negotiations been started with these countries regarding imports and exports?
3.	Has the Department of Trade and Commerce appointed permanent representatives attached to the countries of the common market and, if so, what is the name of each representative and what are the duties of each?
Return tabled.



CANADIAN FLAG


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister this in regard to the flag question that is now assuming some interest in the country, has he received recommendations and suggestions that the whole question ought to be submitted to a referendum? Has he given consideration to that? Has the government made a decision in that regard?


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received such suggestions, including one from an hon. member in this house yesterday. I answered yesterday that I did not think that would be a practicable or the most desirable course to follow in the circumstances.


John George Diefenbaker: From that answer, may we conclude that the decision is that the matter will not be submitted to a referendum?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes; the matter will be submitted to parliament.


John George Diefenbaker: But not a referendum?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Not a referendum.



EDUCATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquiflam):: May I ask the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the government that loans to needy students will be available for the fall term. With that in mind, is the intention of the government to introduce the legislation fairly soon?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, that is our intention. Whether our intention will be carried out will depend on the decision of the house. We hope to get the legislation before the house in ample time for that purpose to be achieved.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a supplementary question to the Prime Minister. Can he assure the house that before introducing this measure he will enter into the required negotiations with the government of the province of Quebec?


Lester Bowles Pearson: That matter has already been discussed with the provinces.



LABOUR CONDITIONS

[Stage Direction]
st. John's, nfld.-steps to settle longshoremen's strike
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that a strike of longshoremen in St. John's, Newfoundland, has been in progress for about four weeks can the minister tell us what steps are being taken to assist in bringing the parties together to bring about a solution of this problem?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The senior officer of the Department of Labour in the Atlantic provinces has been active in the situation for the past several days. The efforts undertaken by him and other officers of the department, in conjunction with a three man committee of the Newfoundland board of trade, have failed up to this time, and there is still quite a wide area of disagreement between the parties.


Michael Starr: May I ask a supplementary question. In view of this failure, as the minister puts it, to bring the parties together, would not the minister consider trying to bring these parties together on his own initiative?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes, Mr. Speaker; if the circumstances warrant further intervention by the department, that intervention will be undertaken. The parties have rejected a proposal for binding arbitration and the employers, as I understand it, have rejected a proposal for the establishment of an industrial inquiry commission. In this situation, I assure the hon. member for Ontario that at
Inquiries of the Ministry any moment at which further efforts at mediation might be helpful, they will be undertaken.



BASIS FOR FIGURES RESPECTING NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Pierre-Andre Boutin (Dorchester):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour.
According to the dominion bureau of statistics there were 597,300 persons claiming unemployment insurance benefits on March 31. On the other hand, on April 18, according to official statistics, there were 403,000 unemployed persons across Canada.
Could the minister clearly explain the discrepancy between the two figures, since one is based on a report of the unemployment insurance commission and the other on a sample survey?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. Would the hon. member put this question on the order paper?


Pierre-André Boutin: Mr. Speaker, I should like to bring up this matter after ten o'clock.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
16 AND 17 YEAR OLD STUDENTS
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Monteiih (Perth):: I should like to ask a question of either the Minister of Finance or the Prime Minister. Due to the fact that the amendments to the Income Tax Act having to do with the extension of family allowances to children 16 and 17 years of age attending school have been withdrawn thus far with the intention of introducing a comprehensive amendment some time later, can we be assured that children attending school this autumn will be in a position to receive these family allowances?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No one can give that assurance because it will depend on the decision of the House of Commons, and when that decision is given.


Jay Waldo Monteith: May I ask a supplementary question. Will the legislation be introduced in the house in ample time to assure that those allowances are available?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Inquiries of the Ministry



REMOVAL OF QUEEN'S PICTURE FROM CANADIAN CURRENCY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have a specific question for the Minister of Finance. Does he intend to accede to the request made yesterday by the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Cho-quette) to the effect that the government remove the effigy of the Queen from Canadian currency?


Mr. Habel:: Keep that question for ten o'clock tonight.


Some hon. Members:: Order paper.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I wish to discuss this matter after ten o'clock.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Guy Marcoux: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs now that he is back in the house. Can he explain what he meant in The Hague when he spoke about a new Canadian policy con* cerning communist China?


Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of Siate for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I will have the opportunity to discuss this matter on Friday next, when we will study the estimates of the Department of External Affairs.


Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, with your permission I have a question I would like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Having in mind what appear today to be the gathering clouds over Laos, South Viet Nam, Cuba and the Middle East, would the minister undertake to include in his statement on Friday, on the estimates of his department, his assessment of Canada's involvement or relationship in these dangers?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, there will be an opportunity on Friday to discuss these matters.


CYPRUS-NEGOTIATIONS FOR PURCHASE OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: wish to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs if his attention has been drawn to reports that the government of Cyprus is negotiating the purchase of bombers, fighter planes, torpedo boats and heavy equipment, and whether any representations are being made to the government of Cyprus through the United Nations to make sure that these purchases will not be used to further aggravate the delicate situation in Cyprus at the present time?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The answer is yes, sir.


REQUEST FOR INCREASED PURCHASES FROM NOVA SCOTIA BY ONTARIO HYDRO
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of a report in today's Globe and Mail that the cost of United States coal in Ontario will increase substantially in the near future, and in view of the fact that the amount of United States coal imported into Canada last year was up by two million tons over the previous year, would the minister consider making representations to Ontario hydro to encourage increased purchases of Nova Scotia coal?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to take the hon. member's suggestion into consideration.


Mr. Lawrence E. Kindt (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I have been trying to catch your eye for five minutes. Sitting back here in the comer, as I am, that seems impossible. I wanted to ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce but I see he has left the chamber. I only hope some other minister or member of his staff will take note of it. Now that he is giving consideration to supplying the Ontario market with coal, and in view of the rise in price of United States coal, I hope he will take into consideration the supply of coal which has traditionally served Ontario from the Crowsnest pass of Alberta. I ask him if he will take into consideration the coal from the Crowsnest pass of Alberta.



THE MINISTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.
In view of the fact that we are beginning to receive a great many complaints from our people about the 1963 income tax, could the Prime Minister tell us whether he intends to appoint a minister of national revenue soon so we could discuss those problems with him, because I do not believe the present minister will be there permanently? It would be a good thing if we could have discussions with the minister who will be appointed to that post.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the present minister is of course competent to deal with these matters, and we hope before long there will be a permanent minister appointed.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS STUDY OF EFFECT ON CANADA OF SEPARATION OF QUEBEC

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister of which I sent him notice. In view of the action of the Quebec legislature in setting up a committee to study the social, cultural and economic effects of separation upon the province of Quebec, and in view of the urgent need for the widest possible dissemination of information on this subject and in particular its effect on the rest of Canada, would the government consider ordering a study of the economic, cultural and social effects upon the rest of Canada of separation by Quebec, so the fullest measure of information would be available to discuss this important subject?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Well, Mr. Speaker, the government would be glad to give consideration to the hon. gentleman's proposal, but I would like to add that we are convinced any such study would be entirely academic, because no such separation is going to take place.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Reid Scott: I am sure the sentiments of the Prime Minister are shared by every member in the house, but is he aware that there are people in Canada who really think Canada can
Inquiries of the Ministry get along separately, and that it might be useful if this type of information were available?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of that, and I repeat we shall give consideration to the hon. gentleman's proposal.
tTranslation]


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Prime Minister.
In the name of national unity, had the Prime Minister given instructions to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Hellyer) to denounce Mr. Rene Levesque because the latter is in favour, for Quebec, of the status of associated state?


Some hon. Members:: Ten o'clock.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Yes or no? Mr. Speaker, I want to discuss this matter after ten o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member asked a question but I did not hear any answer. In view of the fact that there is no answer there can be no disagreement or dispute, and I do not see how the hon. member could discuss this at ten o'clock.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: It is a proper question. [Translation]
Mr. Speaker, I should like to raise a question of privilege. I directed a question to the right hon. Prime Minister and I got no answer. Under the standing orders I think I am authorized to raise that question after ten o'clock, at the first opportunity.


Some hon. Members:: Tonight.


Mr. Speaker:: I want to assure the hon. member I will take it into consideration and give a decision just as soon as possible.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldl-Melfori-Tis-dale):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, but in his absence maybe some other minister will take it as notice. Could the minister explain to the house the drastic drop of 17 cents per dozen in the price of grade A eggs in the western provinces? What steps, if any, has the government in mind to stop this unheard-of

Inquiries of the Ministry price drop? At the present time the wholesaler gets more for grading and packaging the eggs than the producer receives.


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member put this on the order paper.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinthe-Bagot):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Since more than half a million Canadians are receiving unemployment insurance benefits, could the minister tell us what is the present financial position of the unemployment insurance fund?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to answer this question, which is statistical, if my hon. friend would put it on the order paper.


John George Diefenbaker: In this connection, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the rehabilitation of the bankrupt unemployment insurance fund was spoken of as one of the priorities, I would like to ask the minister is it just a matter of coincidence that it did not appear on the list of matters to receive attention before the summer recess?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, the intention of the government with respect to action in the way of amending the unemployment insurance fund was stated by the Prime Minister during the debate on the address in reply, and no change has taken place with respect to that declared by the Prime Minister.


John George Diefenbaker: That still does not answer the question. Is it the intention of the government to bring in any measure before the summer recess to rehabilitate that fund?


An hon. Member:: What recess?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the parrots over there could be kept quiet.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. It is quite impossible for the Chair to hear the questions unless there is better order.



URANIUM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a perfectly proper question to the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I apologize for not giving more notice, but the question got immersed in the Columbia river documents. Would the parliamentary secretary inform the house what is the government's intention with respect to the disposition of 1,200,000 pounds of uranium oxide from the Gunnar Mines unfilled contract?


Mr. Speaker:: Important as the question is, surely it is not the type that should be asked at this time. Would the hon. member put his important question on the order paper.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice to have a go at ten o'clock.



COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is the minister aware that on Monday the prime minister of Trinidad announced details of a high level conference this year on closer ties with Canada? If so, can we have the details here, and can we be assured that the government will take an enthusiastic part in such a conference?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the announcement or story of which my hon. friend spoke. When the prime minister of Trinidad was in Ottawa, the Prime Minister of Canada and I had some discussions with him on closer relations with the Caribbean commonwealth countries. Consideration is being given to this matter, and when it has been formally discussed with all of the countries concerned we may be in a position to make a more definite statement.


Thomas Miller Bell: Is the minister aware that the serious-minded President of the Privy Council advocated closer ties for many years, which could amount to a promise by the government to get moving in connection with this most important matter which is of special urgency now because of the transformation through which the West Indies are passing?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. gentleman has correctly stated the situation. He will find that the action to be pursued in the foreseeable future will not be inconsistent with the attitude taken by this government.



INQUIRY AS TO FRENCH REPORTING AND TRANSLATION STAFFS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Guy Marcoux: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport as regards the translation and interpretation system that we have in this house. On the 8th of October last I asked him a question to which he gave the following answer:

"Seeking to do everything that can possibly be done to meet them"-that is, to meet the difficulties.

I should like to know whether the minister has actually done something to overcome those difficulties.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: Yes, sir. I did everything I could while I had the capacity to do it.


Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Public Works. Does the minister intend to instal an air conditioning system in the centre block, considering that we will soon have to put up with the warm weather of the summer? I think it is an opportune time to find out what the department proposes to do in that connection.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, such a system is included in the overall plan covering the extensive improvements we intend to carry out in the centre block. However, my hon. friend will understand that no work can be started while the house is sitting. The program will be launched at the first opportunity.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. Chester MacRae (York-Sunbury):: Inquiries of the Ministry should like to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Is the minister in a position to answer the question I directed to the Prime Minister yesterday in the hon. gentleman's absence? It is to be found on page 3340 of Hansard.


Hon. Roger Teillef (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: I did read the question very carefully, and I had a word with the Prime Minister. The situation obviously is that in the final sense the government must take its responsibility, and I cannot foresee what the circumstances might be where agreement would not be forthcoming.


John Chester MacRae: A supplementary question. Perhaps the answer could be expressed this way; that if the Royal Canadian Legion and the other veterans organizations do not agree with the transfer of any of the veterans hospitals, the department will still proceed to carry out these transfers?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: I did not give that answer at all. May I say the question appears to be completely out of order. It is entirely hypothetical.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Reid Scott: I have a question for the Postmaster General. In the light of the hon. gentleman's speech in Montreal, in which he is reported to have said that the main deficit in the accounts of the Post Office Department results from $22 million lost on the mailing of newspapers and magazines, I should like to know, first of all, why this information was not provided to the house during the discussion of the resolution-


Some hon. Members:: It was.


Reid Scott: -and second, does this mean that the legislation will be revised so the revenue from postage on periodicals and newspapers will be increased by $27 million in order to cover this loss, rather than attempting to recover it by increased charges on first class mail?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Will the hon. member put this question on the order paper.


Reid Scott: I give notice I should like to raise this matter after ten o'clock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to raise a point of order. The hon. member is seeking to debate after ten o'clock a matter which is

Income Tax Act
before the house for debate now, and it seems to me this is a dubious use of the rule.


Reid Scott: If the hon. gentleman would give us an assurance that this subject will come up immediately for debate I should be glad to withdraw my suggestion.



INCOME TAX ACT

Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance) moved: the third reading of Bill No. C-91, to amend the Income Tax Act.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I rise at this point to ask for information. Bill No. C-91 has been before the house on several occasions. It was amended in several respects and we were quite prepared to complete third reading today, but we should have in our possession the reprinted, amended bill, and copies of that bill have not reached our desks. May I ask the Minister of Finance if they are ready?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: Yes, they are ready, Mr. Speaker.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: should like the minister to assure us that the change which was requested by the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue (Mr. Martineau) has been made. This was why the bill was held over last night.


Walter Lockhart Gordon: I am glad to give that assurance. I made inquiries earlier this afternoon to make sure the bill had been reprinted in accordance with the undertaking given last night. I am sorry a copy was not sent to the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre. I believe a copy was sent to the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings (Mr. Nowlan).


Gordon Minto Churchill: It is not a question of sending one to me. They should be circulated to every member of the house. May I ask the Minister of Finance if he will assure us at this stage, so as not to delay proceedings, that the bill as reprinted is correct in every particular and that the amendments have been made?


Walter Lockhart Gordon: To the best of my knowledge and belief, Mr. Speaker.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, before third reading is given to this bill to amend the Income Tax Act, I should like to deal once again with a subject which particularly affects us and which we want to consider when we have the opportunity to do so. We are asked to pass the income tax
[Mr. Pickersgill.l
bill presented by the Minister of Finance, but we are most conscious of certain obligations imposed upon us when considering, from a practical point of view, bills placed before parliament.
We have protested on many occasions against the application of certain bills passed by parliament or against the manner in which these are applied. I merely want to point out to the minister that the Income Tax Act, which we have already passed and amended today, is applied in a vexatious manner in the province of Quebec, especially as regards receipts for charitable donations. Every day, we get complaints about the attitude of the income tax inspectors of the Quebec office concerning the application of the income tax legislation we are passing.
Therefore, I wish to take this opportunity to ask the Minister of Finance to see that, not only we pass income tax legislation, but also-and it is his responsibility-that inspectors respect the legislation that is passed at the request of the Minister of Finance.
Pieces of legislation are submitted to us, explanations are provided but those responsible for their administration should administer them exactly as they have been passed and not only according to their whim or at their convenience, by annoying taxpayers and treating them almost as thieves; they should see that the taxpayers are given satisfaction, in accordance with the provisions of the law,
' since taxpayers must not only pay to provide for the needs of the government, but at the present time they must put up with the inspectors, especially those of the Quebec office.
I am asking the Minister of Finance, before the third reading, to assure us personally, either by way of an investigation or otherwise, that the pieces of legislation which he sponsors, the measures of the Minister of Finance concerning taxes, are strictly complied with to the satisfaction of taxpayers. [Text]


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



BANK ACT-QUEBEC SAVINGS BANKS ACT EXTENSION FOR ONE YEAR OF AUTHORITY TO CARRY ON BUSINESS

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, May 19, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Gordon-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.

That It Is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Bank Act and the Quebec Savings Banks Act to extend by one year the authority to carry on business for the banks to which these acts apply.
Mr. Olson:: Mr. Chairman, last night when the committee rose I was suggesting that there were a number of recommendations and a number of suggestions of the Porter commission that we in this party endorse and agree ought to be brought in as quickly as possible. As a matter of fact I pointed out that there were in this report a number of what might be called new concepts in the functioning of the banking system in Canada that ought to be accepted. I should like to extend those commendations on behalf of this party by including that part of the royal commission's recommendations where it says that the commission also recommends that steps be taken to guard against excessive concentration of the financial system and to outlaw price arrangements among financial institutions. Then this is found at page 369 of the report, where the commission points out:
-competition is an uneasy state and that, however much they may thrive under it, businessmen have an inclination to protect themselves against It.
I think perhaps this is as true in the banking business as in other businesses. The commission also recommends that the Minister of Finance be granted the necessary powers to prevent lending and borrowing agreements among banking institutions, and that there be a limit on the extent of interlocking directorates between banking institutions and other financial institutions. As I pointed out, Mr. Chairman, with this we agree; but when it comes to matters of monetary policy and debt management which are covered in chapter 22 of the Porter commission report, I want the Minister of Finance to know that we in this party take very strong exception to some of the remarks contained in this chapter and to the concept that the commission seems to have adopted. For example, on page 453 the report says this:
Despite a recent revival in a subtle form of the "burden of the debt" controversy, it is generally accepted that domestic interest payments are best thought of as part of a transfer process which has effects on the distribution of incomes and wealth and involves some administrative costs but does not impose other real burdens on the community as a whole.
If $1,035 million in annual interest charges that is paid by the taxpayers of this country is best thought of and generally accepted as not being a burden to the community,
Bank Act
we cannot agree and we do not accept this concept at all. The report goes on to say:
Since virtually all of the federal government's debt is held within Canada, the transfer argument applies in our case.
If all the people of Canada had an equal share in the debt of the country, I would suggest that this is valid; but we have only to turn our memories back to 1958, when the federal government chose to call in all the victory bonds that had been issued during the war and convert them to other long term issues. Under questioning at that time the minister of finance was asked, "Where did you And these victory bonds?", because of course most of them were non-registered, marketable securities. He did not give an exact answer as to who owned them at that time, but I think he did say he was alarmed at the number that had been found in the vaults of the chartered banks and the other financial institutions. If it is generally accepted and best thought of that these interest charges that are paid by the federal treasury are a means of distributing some of our income to these financial institutions- if this is the purpose-I think the financial and monetary system of this country has reached a new low in its function. We cannot accept that, Mr. Chairman. Of course, we see that the author of this report takes a swipe at the Social Credit party, when over on the preceding page he says this:
The view that government should pay no interest on its debt, financing its needs solely by the issue of currency, is the reductio ad absurdum of a cost minimization approach. Such a policy in conjunction with deficits in the government's accounts would lead inevitably to extreme credit ease throughout the system, an exchange crisis and finally uncontrollable inflation. Many of those who propose this view ignore the physical limitations on economic output, assuming that what can be paid for can be produced at current market prices.
We do not suggest that the government should pay absolutely no interest on its debt. The argument that they use to follow this up is:
Many of those who propose this view ignore the physical limitations on economic output, assuming that what can be paid for can be produced at current market prices.
What we have said is that what can be produced, can be paid for-and not the other way around. What we have said is that what is physically possible should be made financially possible. We believe that if the review and the amendments to the Bank Act that will be coming up, which is in fact a mandatory obligation of this house, is going to be based on this kind of concept in so far as monetary policy and debt management is

Bank Act
concerned, we are not going to get out of the financial problems that the federal levels of government and all other levels of government are having. I think it is time the
Minister of Finance rose and gave us some explanations respecting this paradox, in that we seem to have reached the stage where we must have deficits, and everybody accepts that. The Conservatives were in office from 1957 to 1963 and they had a deficit very single year during that period. Since the Liberals have come back to office, in spite of the terrible things they have said about deficits they too are budgeting for a deficit. Furthermore, there is no indication at this time that they even have their sights aimed at a date when they will be able to manage the affairs of this country without having a deficit.
I want to say in fairness, Mr. Chairman, that we in this party have criticized the enormous deficits we have had in the past few years, but having said that I think that if we had to choose between deficits and the kind of economic contraction which leads to the depression of the type we knew in this country prior to the second world war, we and everyone else in the country would prefer deficits rather than setting that kind of economic activity in motion.
The interesting thing about these deficits is that in the space of three or four years since 1958 we have also had an expansion of the interest charges on the national debt, which annually amounts to more than the deficit itself. This is the kind of paradox which I think the Minister of Finance should explain. I would ask why it is that if we have to have deficits to keep our economy buoyant, along with those deficits we have to have increased interest charges which more than account for the deficits? Our party has advocated for years that if we could take the first step toward putting a solid foundation under our social capital requirements and had this money provided by the Bank of Canada, eventually we would be able to inject new money into our economy to keep it going to the extent of its physical limitations, while at the same time keeping debt charges down. In that way we would not run into the situation where our debt charges add more and more to our deficits, and where the higher are the debt charges the higher are our deficits. It is really a vicious circle.
The report goes on to say that-there are those-and I presume that refers to those in the Social Credit party-who say that we should pay all our expenses with new

money. That is, all our government expenses. We have never said that. We have said that part of the social capital requirements could be supplied by the Bank of Canada. In the last fiscal year, 1963, reports indicated that there was an expansion in the money supply in this country of $1,345 million. If the federal government needed about $700 million in new money of that $1,345 million, we consider this expansion of the social capital requirements could be supplied by the Bank of Canada. I cannot understand why it would be any more inflationary if this money were to come from the Bank of Canada than if it were supplied by the other chartered banks in the country. I cannot understand why it would increase inflationary pressures if it came either from the chartered banks or from the Bank of Canada. When parliament gets to the point of sending to the standing committee on banking and commerce for recommendations to change the bank charters of this country, we believe there should be some new recommendations made respecting the Bank of Canada as well.
The Porter commission dealt with this matter to some extent I believe in chapter 26. We all remember the controversy between the minister of finance and the governor of the Bank of Canada in 1961, I believe it was, and this has been taken into consideration by the commissioners. As reported at page 543 of their report they say:
The Bank of Canada Act should be amended to make this clear and to provide the Minister of Finance with the right to issue a directive to the bank if the government disapproves of its policy.
I am happy to see these words in the report, because I think the commissioners have recognized that the political authorities in this country must be supreme and that all the branches of government must, in the final analysis, acquiesce in the wishes of the federal cabinet. The report goes on to say:
We therefore recommend that any directive take the form of an order in council to ensure that it receives cabinet consideration-
So apparently after we adopt these recommendations there need no longer be any conflict between the incumbent minister of finance and the governor of the Bank of Canada.
I am not going to go any further at this time, Mr. Chairman, but my reason for drawing these matters to the attention of the Minister of Finance now is that if he also accepts what the report says is generally accepted and best thought of with respect to the interest charges on the national debt, then

we are going to have a great deal of difficulty in trying to come to some kind of agreement as to how the Bank Act should be amended, after it is reviewed.


Mr. Rondeau:: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the resolution to amend the Bank Act so as to enable our Canadian banking institutions to carry on business for another year, I was unable to find in the explanation given by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) the main reasons why a one-year extension was being granted to them without amending the present act.
Everybody may not share our opinion to the effect that financial reforms should be made in our country, but everybody agrees, however, that the financial situation in Canada is one of the most serious and probably one of the most urgent problems.
When we consider the whole financial situation of Canada, and in particular the financial situation of the provinces, of our municipalities and school boards, in short when we see that the provincial governments, and more especially the Quebec government, are forced to take steps, at this time, to find the necessary funds in order to meet their requirements, I think that it would have been appropriate, this year, to introduce amendments to the Bank Act, because if we postpone that review for another year, we postpone by that much the introduction of proposals or amendments to the present act which could be brought about this year.
Unfortunately, today, in our modern world, no difference is made between public and private capital; our banks are there to play their part as financial institutions to meet the needs in private capital, they are there to live, make money, make profits and they set up their organization in the private sector to make such profits. That is normal and we do not blame them at all for making money, but we are against the banks having access to the public sector; as private organizations they should not finance the public sector, they should not invest in our municipalities, school boards or anything that comes under the federal government.
Public capital does not bear interest; no profit can be made out of highways because they are public capital. Nowadays, money is borrowed from private enterprises to be invested in public capital; citizens are compelled to pay interest because private enterprises have been allowed to receive interest which they should not claim.
Bank Act
I would like the Minister of Finance to tell us what he thinks about that and whether he puts private capital and public capital on the same footing. Indeed, he is a businessman, and an experienced accountant; he admits that capital must earn a profit, but it is not normal that a municipality or a school board, which do not make any profit, should be compelled to pay interest to private companies in order to develop.
When public works are carried out nowadays, the taxpayers and electors have to pay, through interest charges, two or three times for the schools, bridges and roads which are built, because the Bank of Canada does not provide the necessary public capital.
For years now Social Crediters have been saying that banks have the right to operate in the private sector of our economy. Financiers who invest money in private enterprise have the right to expect a profit, but we who advocate Social Credit, have also stated that banks should not finance non-profit public projects. That is why we make a distinction between private and public capital. That is also the reason why we ask the Minister of Finance once and for all to take his responsibilities concerning the Bank of Canada and to bring it to play its role in the field of public capital.
Investment is needed everywhere in fields which do not yield any interest but which are beneficial to everybody. The Bank of Canada should be there to meet the needs of public capital and the requirements of our society.
Now, I wonder when the Minister of Finance will assume his responsibilities once and for all in the field of public financing; we are here in parliament to satisfy the needs of the general public. We find it stupid that a government has to borrow from private institutions, from chartered banks, money which it could obtain from the Bank of Canada at 1 per cent instead of 6 per cent, as our public bodies are now doing. The country or the central administration would save a great deal of money that way.
We should realize that the Minister of Finance, in his budget, has almost a billion dollars interest on the public debt. We must pay every year a billion dollars in interest, that is, as the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Olson) said, a little more than the amount of our annual deficit. We had several deficits under the Conservative administration, we had another one last year and

Bank Act
we will have a new one in 1963-64, because nothing is changed in the monetary and financial policy.
Finance is very important in the management of a company, and it is even more so in the federal administration. Nevertheless, it does not seem that much interest is shown in that. When Social Crediters speak of finance, there is a tendency to laugh at them. However, it is the most important problem in Canada, because if we have to go on seeking for and borrowing money in the world, in the United States, New York, Washington, from the American or Canadian finance companies, in order to develop our country and pay back, after 30 years, twice the value of the borrowed capital, we will never get out of our debts which will increase from budget to budget; and if our debts increase, taxes will increase also. Now, when taxes go up, the cost of living necessarily goes up. It is necessary to include in tax increases-


The Chairman:: Order. The hon. member will allow me to interrupt him for a moment only, in order to ask him whether it would be possible for him to relate his remarks to the resolution now before the committee.


Gilbert F. Rondeau: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that my remarks are relevant to the proposed measure: to maintain for another year the power our banks now have. The Minister of Finance did not tell us why he wanted to give banks another year without improving at all, through an amendment, the existing legislation.
Now, I should like him at least to tell us what amendments he intends to bring to the Bank Act. Indeed, why give one more year, if no change to the present act is anticipated? If the minister wishes to give the banks an additional year for their operations, I believe that some amendments must be made to this act. It would give us an opportunity to help him if we discussed those amendments, because at present we cannot see the reasons why the government wants to give the banks one more year, when this is supposed to be done every ten years.
Those are the reasons why I made my observations concerning this resolution. Now, we will wait for the bill to have more details concerning that matter. But once again, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that it is stupid to live in a country as rich as Canada, as well organized in terms of production, and to have a financial system according to which the more we develop, the more debts we have.


Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Gordon thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-98, to amend the Bank Act and the Quebec Savings Banks Act.
Motion agreed to and the bill read the first time.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


Mr. MacNaughl:: I wonder whether we could have unanimous consent of the house to have second reading of the bill now. We have a few copies available for distribution and they can be distributed immediately. It is only a short bill.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Have you copies in French and English?


John Watson MacNaught: In French and English.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: By leave, now?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Gerard Perron (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, I am opposed at this stage to the second reading of this bill because, in my opinion, it is of the utmost importance to know exactly the content of the bill in order to have the opportunity for explanation and study. Consequently, I am against the second reading of the bill.


John Watson MacNaught: The bill is being distributed, and the hon. member could take a moment to look it over.


Guy Marcoux: Mr. Speaker, the Porter commission took several years to study all the suggestions made and to arrive at a decision. In the circumstances, it would perhaps be appropriate for us to take more than a few minutes to study this bill. Consequently, I suggest that the second reading of the bill be deferred to another sitting of the house.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Second reading at the next sitting of the house.



TERRITORIAL SEA AND FISHING ZONES


Paul Joseph James Martin: the second reading of Bill No. S-17, respecting the territorial sea and fishing zones of Canada.

He said: Mr. Speaker, because of its importance I intend to make some general remarks on the bill, which has to do with the territorial sea and fishing zones, and which is now before the house for second reading. It is the intention of my colleague the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Robichaud), who has been very intimately associated in this matter with me in my capacity as Secretary of State for External Affairs, that the bill be referred to the standing committee on marine and fisheries.
The bill before the house has two principal purposes and these are accomplished each in a somewhat different manner. They are both set out in the first part of the bill, as hon. gentlemen will have noted.
First, the bill establishes the fishing zones of Canada at 12 miles from the coast line. When it is passed by parliament and proclaimed, Canada will have a fishing zone in the 3 to 12 mile area off our coast line. This, in the view of the government, is a fundamental achievement of the bill. It is not enabling legislation in this respect. On proclamation, the 12 mile fishing zone will be established. I must emphasize there is no doubt, and there can be no doubt, about this point.
Canada has never published official charts showing the present base lines, but for at least parts of our coast the base lines follow the sinuosities of the shore. Pending the establishment of straight base lines, the fishing zones will be measured from the existing ones. This is clearly provided for in the bill.
The second important purpose of the bill is to apply the straight base line system to the Canadian coast line. This part of it, unlike the section concerning fishing zones, will be of an enabling character. When the bill comes into effect the governor in council will be authorized to draw straight base lines. The question may be asked: what does this achieve? In response, I would say that what the bill accomplishes is of great significance. It makes applicable the straight base line system to the Canadian coast. These straight base lines will be drawn in accordance with international law, on the basis of the decision of the International Court of Justice in the Anglo-Norwegian fisheries case and of the Geneva convention on the territorial sea and fishing zones and taking into account Canadian historic interests in the bodies of water off our coasts.
Thus, while the bill is enabling in so far as the drawing of specific or individual base lines is concerned, it has this immediate general effect; it makes applicable, on proclama-
20, 1964	3409
Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones tion, the general system of straight base lines to the Canadian coast line. The authority that is given to the governor in council is with respect to the specific lines to be drawn and the exceptions to be made. The larger effect of the bill is to make applicable the principle of the straight base line system to Canada. Hon. members will note that the bill specifically provides that all areas enclosed by the new straight base lines will be internal waters of Canada. This is important and may have far reaching consequences.
Part II of the bill consists of the amendments that are to be made to certain acts of Canada pursuant to the main purpose of the bill. These are consequential changes which will make existing legislation applicable to the new fishing zones and areas within the straight base lines. The acts amended are the Aeronautics Act, the Canada Shipping Act, the Criminal Code, the Customs Act, the Fisheries Act and the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act. Their provisions will now conform with part I of the bill. Part III of the bill provides that the act will come into force on a day or days to be fixed by proclamation of the governor in council.
This, in brief, is the general scheme and contents of the proposed legislation on the territorial sea and fishing zones of Canada. I am sure the house will agree that this bill is of the greatest significance for our country.
I have heard some say that we are going too fast; that we should not consider moving forward unilaterally; that parliament should not be asked to take action until a general international agreement has been reached or until specific agreements are worked out with the countries fishing off our coasts. On the other hand, I have heard comments that we are moving too slowly; that we should now embody in the bill the co-ordinates of points from which the base lines are to be drawn; that the bill should designate the specific bodies of water which we are closing off. I need only add in passing, of course, that we are now in the stage of very important negotiations and this, in itself, answers any criticism in that regard.
I am convinced that in taking this action now-as the government is doing, unilaterally -Canada is acting in accordance with present day international law and practice. The government is convinced that we are following the wisest course in immediately seeking agreements with the countries affected by our action. We are equally convinced that we must carry forward our negotiations with these countries before we proclaim the base

Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones lines for our entire coast line. We are confident, in short, that we are proceeding in the proper way.
Let us look for a moment at the suggestion that we should not act unilaterally. This house knows of the great efforts made for many years to achieve international agreement. This house knows how Canada tried at the two law of the sea conferences-and before and after them-to achieve some form of international agreement.
Canada was the first country to put forward in an international forum the concept of a 12 mile fishing zone in which a state has the same jurisdiction over fishing as it has in its territorial sea. This was the general assembly in 1956. Canada took the lead at the first law of the sea conference in 1958 as my hon. friend, the former minister of fisheries, will attest. The then government of Canada made the most strenuous efforts to obtain support for the 12 mile exclusive fishing zone. Notwithstanding all the efforts that were put into that particular initiative, the proposal failed.
The period before the second law of the sea conference in 1960 was one of most intensive diplomatic activity. At the conference itself Canada sought the support of the United States, Britain and the western European countries for our formula of a six mile territorial sea, six mile exclusive fishing zone, and a ten year phasing out period. Had these states supported us at the first conference there is no question that we would have had agreement on a rule for the territorial sea and for an exclusive fisheries jurisdiction.
But it was too late. The second conference followed in the footsteps of the first; it failed. It failed by a single vote, but the fact is that it failed.
Then Canada took the lead once again in trying to pick up the remains of the second Geneva conference. Canada tried to win support for a multilateral treaty among like-minded countries in favour of our proposal at the second Geneva conference, and my recollection is that this was done by the former administration in February, or thereabouts, of 1963. But the results were inconclusive. Once again our efforts on the multilateral plane had failed.
When the present government took office a year ago we came to the conclusion-and we regretfully came to it-that for the foreseeable future there was no possibility of reaching general agreement on a 12 mile fishing zone.
Canada had to make a choice. There were two possibilities. We could have decided in

favour of postponement. This would have meant an indefinite delay. This would have meant that we would not have for a long time the 12 mile fishing zone which this legislation will make possible. Meanwhile, our resources would have continued to be depleted, as greater and greater fishing fleets drew nearer our shores. Or, we could have decided to establish a fishing zone without waiting for international agreement, and to draw the fishing zone from straight base lines.
Our experts looked at the situation in international law. We found that there were 42 countries which claimed a territorial sea limit of more than three miles. We found that 23 countries claimed fishing zones in excess of their territorial sea. There were thus over 50 countries claiming control over fisheries beyond the traditional three mile rule. In the circumstances the government concluded that a decision by Canada to establish a 12 mile fishing zone from straight base lines would be soundly based on present day international law and practice. We chose this course, and so the government has brought forward accordingly the legislation we are now considering.
In establishing the fishing zones of Canada and in making applicable the straight base line system to our coast line, the bill provides a legal basis for the international achievement of our aims. Our action is in this sense unilateral, for who else can proclaim base lines or establish the fishing zones for Canada?
But at the same time we know that our action has international implications. We know that, notwithstanding the many countries claiming limits beyond three miles, there are a number of states, important fishing nations, which firmly maintain that they are not bound to recognize any limits beyond the traditional three mile rule. Consequently, it will be recalled that the Prime Minister informed this house a year ago that we would consult with the countries affected by our action and that we would seek to work out satisfactory arrangements with them.
When the government took its decision to establish a 12 mile fishing zone and straight base lines, we did not minimize the problems involved in some of the negotiations lying ahead of us. Nor do we minimize them now. These negotiations may be difficult and we must accept this fact.
When a country seeks to achieve recognition for what it has done, when it seeks to protect its interests, it must be prepared to

discuss and to negotiate with the countries that are affected. Existing in a world of sovereign states, we must do the best we can to achieve our ends through negotiation.
This is what the government of Canada is now in the process of doing. We have already had three rounds of negotiations with the United States. In the last two months we have had a round of discussions with Norway, Denmark, Britain, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Japan. All these countries sent officials to Ottawa to have talks with us, and in our negotiations with the United States one of the meetings took place in Washington. I am hopeful that in all cases our discussions will work out satisfactorily, but I do not want in any way to minimize the difficulties of the negotiations themselves.
Hon. members may ask what is the basis of our talks with these countries? What do we expect to achieve? What base lines are we asking these countries to accept or to acquiesce in? These are fair questions and I will try to give a clear and frank response.
When straight base lines are proclaimed in whole or in part for the Canadian coast line, and when Canadian laws are enforced in the fishing zones, the situation will be as follows:
First of all, those countries which have not fished in the three to 12 mile zone or have just begun to fish, will not be able to come in under Canadian law. They must cease their operations at once, both in the fishing zone and in the internal waters enclosed by the base lines. I would urge the house not to underestimate the importance of this fact.
Since the last war we have seen the birth of enormous fishing fleets of certain countries, ranging thousands of miles away from their home ports. These ships are equipped with the most modern equipment and use the latest techniques. So far the vessels of certain important fishing countries have not come within 12 miles of our coasts. It is possible that they might do so soon. By establishing fishing zones now, before they can lay claim to any so-called historic fishing rights, we are excluding them under Canadian law from coming into our 12 mile zone in future, and we are thus protecting the living resources of our adjacent areas.
Second, as I have said, we are now discussing arrangements with those countries which do not possess treaty rights but have fished off our shores for many years. I refer to Portugal, Spain, Norway, Denmark, Britain and Italy. There is no question in our minds of allowing the indefinite continuation of historic fishing rights for these countries. The
20, 1964	3411
Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones basis of our proposals to them is the possibility of allowing a period of time for adjusting their fishing operations so that their fishermen do not suffer any undue economic loss.
Under such arrangements, fishing by these countries would continue for a period of time, subject to non-discriminatory Canadian regulations. But it would then cease and, like those states which do not claim traditional fishing rights, fishermen of these countries would not be allowed to come into the 12 mile zone under Canadian law.
Third, we have had discussions with those countries which do possess treaty rights off parts of our shores-the United States and France. The French have had treaty rights for over two centuries to fish off parts of our coastline. Under the convention of 1904 they have the right to fish off the west, and parts of the northeast coast of Newfoundland. With the United States there is the treaty of 1818 providing specific fishing rights off the coast of Labrador and parts of the coast of Newfoundland. These rights allow United States fishermen to fish within the three mile limit. In addition, there is the treaty of Washington of 1912 between Canada and the United States which ended a long and complicated series of negotiations and implemented, in part, an award by an international tribunal based on the treaty of 1818. The treaty of Washington specified terms for the closing of a number of bays on the east coast of Canada, both inside and outside the gulf of St. Lawrence.
We have made clear that the United States and France will be allowed to continue to fish in those areas where they have fished before, subject to agreed arrangements and regulations for the protection of the fisheries concerned.
I have said that the bill makes applicable the straight base line system to Canada. When the specific base lines are delineated, all the waters inside these lines will become internal. The territorial sea and fishing zones will be drawn seaward from the new base lines. Thus, the delineation of the new lines may affect the fishing operations of other countries. In some cases, their traditional fishing practices may be disturbed. For this reason, it is necessary to determine the general effects of our action on the countries concerned before publishing the base lines. Pending this determination and an opportunity to carry forward our discussions with the countries concerned, we have decided to allow a short period of time to elapse before starting to enforce Canadian laws in the fishing zones of Canada.

Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones
Both my colleague the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Robichaud) and I have already emphasized that we were not in a position to indicate the state of our negotiations concerning our straight base lines and the bodies of water which may be enclosed by these base lines. I am sure this will be understood. While negotiations are under way with foreign powers, friendly though they may be, no disclosure may be made until such time as it is in the interest of the parties concerned. To take any other course would be self-defeating.
I can make clear, however, that in a general way we have based ourselves on the brief by the fisheries council of Canada of January 28, 1963, which recommended closing lines for the gulf of St. Lawrence, the bay of Fundy, Hudson bay and Hudson strait, Dixon entrance, Hecate strait and Queen Charlotte sound. I cannot at the present time go beyond this general indication of our position.
I am hopeful, however, that our discussions will soon be completed and that the governor in council will be in a position before the end of the year to proclaim a list of geographical co-ordinates of points for application of the straight base lines to at least a part of our coast line. If our optimism, here, proves unwarranted it will not be because this is not our present appreciation of the situation; it will be because of the nature of the negotiations themselves. It is unlikely that the governor in council will publish points covering our entire coast line in his first list. It is possible that, depending on how our discussions proceed, he will publish several lists and that, in the first, base lines will come into force only for those areas in respect of which we have completed our talks.
I should like to conclude by discussing briefly our negotiations with the United States. The Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) said on June 4:
In my discussions with President Kennedy at Hyannis Port, I informed him that the Canadian government would shortly be taking decisions to establish a 12-mile fishing zone. The President reserved the long standing American position in support of the three mile limit. He also called attention to the 'historic' and treaty fishing rights of the United States and I assured him that these rights would be taken into account. Discussions will be held with the United States with a view to determining the nature and extent of the United States' rights and interests that may be affected by the action which Canada is taking.
I am confident that the United States and Canada will be able to work out a solution in this field, as we have in other difficult problems. In view of our tradition of the closest co-operation, I remain optimistic that we will reach a satisfactory common accord.

But we have not yet been able to settle all outstanding questions. On most matters there are no differences between us; in certain other areas, our points of view have yet to coincide.
The Prime Minister made clear in the house that Canada for its part is prepared to be fair and just towards our neighbour. In our efforts to reach an accord with the United States we will continue to be guided by our tradition of friendship. We are convinced that our case is a fair one, solidly based on legal, economic, and historic considerations as well as those of a security nature. The configuration of our coast line, the needs of our people, and the interests of our security, require us to draw base lines so as to enclose Canadian internal waters. We have informed the United States that in view of their treaty rights and in order to be as fair as possible to the interests of their fishermen we are prepared to allow them to continue to fish in those areas where they have operated until now, subject to agreed regulations for the protection of the fisheries concerned. We are endeavouring to obtain their acquiescence in our straight base lines and to the application of Canadian regulations in the waters affected by our action.
We hope that with the adoption of this legislation our negotiations will be substantially furthered. I am sure that the introduction of this bill, which provides for the establishment of a 12 mile fishing zone and which enables the government to establish a straight base line system, will be a material factor in the negotiations which are still under way. The differences which we must overcome do not affect large parts of our coastal limits where there should be no difficulty in achieving agreement on what we propose to do. I am hopeful that in the foreseeable future all difficulties will have been removed and that our long standing desire to protect our coastal waters will be realized. I believe this bill will commend itself to the house.


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Queens):: It is a
pleasure for me to take part in this debate on a most important subject which has been near to my heart for a number of years.
I wish at the outset to congratulate the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) on the reasonable and generous attitude he has taken in the course of his remarks. But I regret that in this matter, which is one of national importance and is one with which I think all parties in this house agree in general terms the attitude now

shown by the minister has not been shown by spokesmen for the party of which he is a member in the heat of election campaigns. I regret very much the attitude that was taken on many occasions by speakers on behalf of the party now in power, during not only the last campaign but the last three or four campaigns. I suppose some of these people can be excused up to a point, because in most cases they were not people who were most familiar with the problems involved.
I feel this is a very important matter not only to Canada's fishermen but to Canada as a nation. It is a problem that we must try to solve with as much of a united front as we can present to other countries when negotiating with them for what we consider to be our rights. It is, of course, an important subject, chiefly because as the world population increases, the demand on the living resources of the sea increases at an even greater rate, with the result that many countries have greatly enlarged their fishing fleets and their fishing efforts over the last few years and larger and larger fleets are operating closer and closer to our coasts as time goes by.
This bill represents the Canadian reaction, as expressed by the present government, to this state of affairs. I do not propose to review the fact that discussions have been going on with regard to this subject for a number of years. The Secretary of State for External Affairs reviewed this situation very fairly, I think, and I believe it was a matter of great regret to all Canadians interested in this matter that the proposal put forward by Canada at the 1960 Geneva conference missed being accepted by only one vote. Indeed, up to the last moment it seemed that it would be accepted, but for some reason that has
never been explained, at least one country_
I think in fact there were two or three____
abstained from voting. What their motives or considerations were, nobody knows; but at the very last moment the proposition was lost. I think this was a great loss to international law generally, and to a reasonable development of international law as far as the living resources of the sea are concerned. Following that failure to carry the Canadian six plus six proposal-that is, the familiar six miles territorial sea, plus six miles exclusive fishing zone-


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was then a compromise formula.


John Angus MacLean: That is correct. Following the failure to carry that proposal, the
20. 1964	3413
Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones Canadian government did not just sit on its hands, as I heard many speakers of the party of the Secretary of State for External Affairs state during the last election campaign-and I think very unfairly. I say this because I have great regard for the officials of the departments concerned, chiefly the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Fisheries, in this very difficult field. They worked hard and conscientiously, and so did the government of which I was a member; and I would doubt if as a result of the change of government there has been any appreciable change in the speed of the progress being made. I think it is fair to say that had the former government still been in power we would almost certainly be at least as far ahead as we are now-perhaps farther. I am willing to admit that the opposite could be the case. However, in both cases our objectives are the same; they are the objectives which, as the Secretary of State for External Affairs said, are expressed in a submission to the government by the fisheries council of Canada. I believe this submission is dated January, 1963. Actually the letter transmitting it to me was dated January 28.
Unfortunately the government of which I was a member was defeated in the house within a week of that date. I would just like to highlight that date, because it has been inadvertently published in the newspapers of Canada-due, I think, to a typographical error-that this submission was made in 1961. Everybody recognizes that it was actually made in 1963. I believe the fisheries council have done a great service to Canada by presenting this resolution, because by so doing they have tremendously strengthened the hand of any government in these negotiations. By making these recommendations they have at least in a measure taken, on behalf of the fishing industry of Canada, some of the responsibility for any reaction which might come from other countries as a result of our action in this field.
I hope there will be no detrimental reaction, but I think this is a possibility that we should not forget, that some countries that are friends of ours have very strong reasons for objecting to either an extension of the territorial sea or-an extension of the exclusive fishing zone. Persons may be misled by the fact that these friends of ours joined with us as a compromise in the Geneva conference to support our resolution; but they joined with us only for the purpose of trying to bring order into the chaos of international

Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones law in this field, and they reserved their position for the future. It did not follow that if the resolution did not carry, as was the case, they would still support the concept that this bill expresses, as a matter of fact. This is something that must be fully realized. As the Secretary of State for External Affairs rightly pointed out when quoting the statement of the Prime Minister of last June 4, the President of the United States stated specifically that they reserved their position on this matter. Any notion that, because the United States and some other countries supported the Canadian position in 1960, their position is still the same, is not valid. As far as any possible reaction arising out of this action on the part of the Canadian government is concerned, I think some people are lulled into a sense of false security by the statement that the United States has to buy our fish, the same as we have to sell it to them.
In this context, Mr. Speaker, I should like to remind hon. members that we export at least two thirds, in value, of our catch to the countries of the world, and a great percentage of that catch goes to the United States. I am not suggesting that the ministers responsible have this notion, but the United States have other places from which they can buy fish, if they so choose. If they had a long term contract with other countries, those other countries could even extend their fishing fleets for the very purpose of supplying the United States market, if that unfortunate situation should come about. All I am saying is that I hope there will be no reaction of this sort from any country which is affected by the action we are taking; but we must not fail to realize that this is a possibility which must be guarded against in our negotiations.
There are, as I have said, certain categories to the recommendations made by the fisheries council; and the minister has said that roughly this is what the bill is trying to achieve. However, I want to say categorically that the party for which I am speaking at the moment supports the objectives in mind-I want this to be perfectly clear-provided, of course, they can be achieved by negotiation without an overriding liability.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is precisely our position.


John Angus MacLean: I believe this has been the responsible position of the Liberal party for a number of years, although it is not, of course, my place to speak for them. For this reason I regret most strongly the

statements which were made during the last election campaign. I had better not be specific because I am speaking from memory, but statements were made to the effect that if the present government came to power they would very quickly declare unilaterally an exclusive fishing zone up to 12 miles, regardless of what happens. Let the chips fall where they may; it was perfectly simple. They said that the reason this was not done sooner was because the government of the day was not acting rapidly and resolutely enough.
I have tried to be fair in this connection, Mr. Speaker, but that was a statement which was completely invalid and should never have been made. We now have the commitment made by the present government that within a very short time of their coming into office they would declare a 12 mile exclusive fishing zone. The Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) on June 4 of last year made a statement in this regard on behalf of the government. He said that by the middle of May this year this legislation would be in effect and that this action would have been taken. I think that if one reads the fine print carefully he would discover that the Prime Minister may have created an escape hatch or two. The bravadolike statements made before the election have been soft pedalled a little and a note of caution introduced. Nevertheless the statement was made that a 12 mile exclusive fishing zone would be in effect by the middle of May 1964.
I think that if this bill were bringing this about we would have nearly reached that objective; but the trouble is that the fisheries council recommended that certain bodies of water, which the Secretary of State for External Affairs mentioned, should be proclaimed Canadian national waters, and with this I agree. The bodies of water which come to my mind are the gulf of St. Lawrence, the strait of Belle Isle, bay of Fundy, Hecate strait, Dixon entrance and Queen Charlotte sound.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And Hudson bay.


John Angus MacLean: Yes, Hudson bay; but I believe Hudson bay is in a somewhat different position in that we have already declared it to be a national water. With this objective I concur, but I think the minister will agree with me that we have the power under the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act to take this action by order in council. I have no objection to restating the requirements in this bill especially if it will strengthen the hand of the government in its negotiations with other countries. I am perfectly willing

to support the bill on that basis. But I do not support the bill on the basis of trying to make a shadow look like a substance, and going through the legislative process at this time in order to make the Canadian people believe that more is being done at the moment than is actually being done. The speed with which our final objective, which we all share, will be achieved depends on the progress and the success of the negotiations, which the secretary of state rightly said are still in progress. And they are very difficult negotiations; I am the first to concede that point.
This particular part of the bill cannot be effective until the bill is proclaimed, and I note that nowhere in the bill is there reference to a date of proclamation. No part of the bill can come into effect until it is proclaimed an act. With regard to these national waters and the delineation of the geographic co-ordinates which will determine the base lines by which our territorial waters are to be measured, until these orders in council are passed-and the minister said that some of them may be passed by the end of this year-this bill can have no effect. As the secretary of state said, when the bill is proclaimed it will establish, in theory at least, an exclusive fishing zone beyond our territorial waters, which at the moment would be an exclusive fishing zone of nine miles beyond our present territorial waters.
This brings me to a very important point. At the 1958 law of the sea convention in Geneva several conventions were approved, I think four in all. One was a convention on the territorial sea and contiguous seas. Another was a convention on the high seas. However, these conventions become effective only when a certain number of countries ratify them; I believe 22 countries in the case of some of the conventions. I think I am up to date when I say that in no case have enough countries ratified any of these conventions- although one of them is very close to ratification-to make them effective. It is curious that the Secretary of State for External Affairs did not mention that Canada has not ratified any of these conventions. I would ask why this is, Mr. Speaker. I suspect the reason Canada has not ratified any of these conventions is because if we started to ratify one of them we would have to ratify them all.
Article 2 of the convention concerning the high seas says this:
The high seas being open to all nations, no state may validly purport to subject any part of them to its sovereignty. Freedom of the high seas is exercised under the conditions laid down by
20, 1964	3415
Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones these articles and by the other rules of international law. It comprises, inter alia, both for coastal and non-coastal states:
(1)	Freedom of navigation;
(2)	Freedom of fishing;
I need go no further than that.
This bill states in one breath that our territorial sea will extend to three miles from certain base lines, and then in the next it proceeds to enact legislation, to apply to the nationals of all countries, with regard to the next nine miles, which the bill itself admits is part of the high seas. If we can bring this off, Mr. Speaker, I am all for it, do not misunderstand me; but in this connection I believe we are on very shaky ground with regard to international law. As a matter of fact, the convention of 1958 agreed to at Geneva, though not ratified by us, specifically prohibits what we are about to do.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would hope that I did not understand my friend to say that the effort to establish straight base lines with regard to waters that we hope will be regarded as internal will put us in a position where we do not have a legal case.


John Angus MacLean: Oh, no.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am sure my hon. friend did not mean that and I would not want such words to be before us in the negotiations because I am sure he agrees with me that we have a good case.


John Angus MacLean: I agree fully and I contend we are completely justified in stating that these bodies of water I have mentioned, and perhaps more, are national waters and belong to Canada. I think we are on fairly good legal ground as far as international law is concerned up to this point and also with regard to the establishment of the straight base line method. There are certain precedents for this and there is the moral suasion of certain events that have happened in the past plus references to the court of international justice, and matters of this sort that add strength to our claim in this regard.
I agree 100 per cent with the minister on this point, but I go on to say that when we proceed in the bill to establish an exclusive fishing zone beyond our territorial sea we are on shakier ground. I hope that will succeed too but I would foresee that when we pass this legislation almost certainly it will be tested. It will not be done right away, but when the act is proclaimed and the nine mile exclusive zone will be in effect adjacent to our present territorial waters-


Paul Joseph James Martin: From the present base line.
20220-217i

Territorial Sea and Fishing Zones


John Angus MacLean: From the present base line-I would predict that, unless we can arrive at unanimity in the negotiations, the legislation will be tested in the courts.
I believe we would be on much sounder ground as far as international law is concerned if we had proclaimed 12 miles of territorial sea instead of three miles of territorial sea and nine miles of exclusive fishing zone. There is the difficulty there, of course, of which I am fully aware, that we would be running head on into the objections of our most important friends on this point, and that is not a practical posture to take in the matter.
There is another important point I want to reiterate. A great deal of attention has been paid to this legislation and to this whole concept, and it has always been referred to as the exclusive 12 mile fishing zone, the 12 mile limit. The motion has grown up that the exclusive fishing zone is a more important aspect of the matter than the declaration that these bodies of water are to be national waters. I believe that the most important thing is the clear establishment that these large areas, like the gulf of St. Lawrence, are national waters. I believe that the second most important thing as far as our fishing industry is concerned is to establish straight base lines. I believe that the third most important thing is the width of the exclusive fishing zone. However, if we achieve the first two, much of what is required will be achieved by that fact alone and the actual width of the exclusive fishing zone will not be of such great importance. It will be of very great importance in some areas, however, especially so far as our inshore fishermen are concerned because then their fixed gear will not be torn up and destroyed by foreign trawlers, and so on.
It will also have fairly important conservation benefits as far as some species of fish are concerned, such as lobster, shellfish and other estuarial fish. However, as far as the problem of the conservation of the living resources of the whole ocean is concerned, the width of the exclusive fishing zone has very little effect. It has some effect but it is only a very small percentage compared to the whole and it will not begin to solve the great problems that face us in this modern world with regard to arriving at agreed upon methods whereby we can conserve the living resources of the sea for the good of all mankind and arrive at a method by which they can be exploited fairly by the countries concerned.
As far as this legislation is concerned, it will be of no benefit in preserving our salmon

resources on the west coast. It will have virtually no effect in that regard because this species of fish migrates for hundreds of miles out into the ocean and can be caught on the high seas, regardless of how wide we make our exclusive fishing zone, by the nationals of other countries, unless we can continue to broaden the areas of treaties for the purpose of conserving intelligently these important fishing resources.
I see that it is five o'clock, Mr. Speaker. I am just about finished but I may have two or three thoughts that have escaped me at the moment, so I should like to take this opportunity to adjourn the debate.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.



CANADIAN CONSTITUTION


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Notices of motions-Mr. Asselin (Notre Dame de Grace):
That a special committee be appointed to consider matters relating to the constitutional structure of Canada, desirable changes thereto and in particular, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the proper division of legislative functions between levels of government; that the committee have power to send for persons and papers; that it report from time to time its findings and recommendations to the house; that standing order No. 67 be suspended in relation to the committee; and that it consist of 24 members to be designated at a later date.
John Watson MacNaught: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that, with unanimous consent of the house, this motion stand.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: In order for this motion to be retained on the order paper there will need to be unanimous consent. Does the house give unanimous consent for this motion to stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Motion stands.



INCOME TAX ACT


Mr. J. E. Lloyd (Halifax) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of amending the Income Tax Act to permit taxpayers to deduct from taxable income contributions to registered national political parties, providing such deductions do not exceed a stated maximum percentage of taxable income.

He said: Mr. Speaker, if the principle of this resolution were adopted a Canadian taxpayer in essence could divert a limited amount of his income to a political party, an amount that would otherwise be paid out as income taxes. Several considerations prompted me to move this resolution. They arise mainly from the fact that the role of government, in ordering the economic affairs of our nation, has evolved to a greater degree of responsibility than ever before in our history. Evidence of that fact is apparent when we reflect upon the impact on our economy of new policies that could flow from the GATT conferences. We have found it necessary to establish an economic council to advise government on the state of the nation's economic health and the measures to improve it.
The unique division of powers under our federal constitution has brought the provincial governments into the field of economic planning within their provincial boundaries. Their provincial objectives must be co-ordinated with our national objectives. Canada recently found it necessary to stabilize the Canadian dollar, to peg it at a value of 92J cents, with the financial assistance of the international monetary fund. That decision brought advantages to some sectors of our economy, and disadvantages to others.
The affluence of the Canadian economy, or otherwise, depends upon the volume of our exports to other nations of the world. All of them are dedicated to employ the powers of government to attain full employment for their people. They are bound to introduce economic policies that will require counter measures, as well as co-operative efforts on the part of our national government, that could involve loss of opportunity for some existing industries in Canada, and gains for others.
It is the government of Canada and parliament that have to make the hard decisions in the light of international developments, as they transpire, with due regard to the overall benefit to Canada as a whole. The challenging responsibilities of governments in the economic field in the world today and tomorrow must be discharged by the men and women elected to parliament and to the legislatures.
To ensure that parliament shall discharge its duties with a maximum of democratic objectivity, fairness and justice, we maintain the party system of nominating and electing its members. That process calls for a continuous flow of funds to party treasuries, not
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only for election campaigns but also to maintain party responsibilities between elections.
If Canadians are not encouraged to make contributions to political parties, with a high sense of service as democratic citizens, we encourage undemocratic influences upon those elected to office. In April, 1962, a commission appointed by the late President Kennedy submitted to the United States congress a report of its inquiry into the matter of presidential and vice presidential campaign costs. I quote from that report:
Given the erratic flow of funds and the periodic crises in campaign finance, individuals and organizations providing substantial gifts at critical moments can threaten to place a candidate in moral hock. In consequence, a disturbing and fundamental failure of present practices is the widespread cynicism about the democratic system they produce.
The heavy dependence of political parties in presidential campaigns upon substantial gifts from and expenditures by a relatively small number of individuals and organizations lends itself to widespread misinterpretation. While the great majority of such contributors to presidential campaigns is not motivated by expectation of specific preferment, none the less, for the vitality and acceptance of the democratic system, we hope to see a significant increase in the number of contributors, both to spread the cost of campaigns and to diffuse more widely through the population the sense and the reality of participation in the politics of democracy.
The United States commission of 1962, among other recommendations, proposed that one half of the contributions by individuals to a maximum of $10 per year be deductible from annual income taxes or, in the alternative, that they be permitted to deduct up to a maximum of $1,000 per annum from taxable income.
It is feared by many with a practical knowledge of our political system that efforts to have governments subsidize the cost of elections could lead to a weakening of the democratic process. While measures can be adopted to reduce election campaign costs, they will not eliminate the need for a substantial volume of voluntary contributions.
It is the present practice, under the Income Tax Act, to disallow contributions to political parties. Many corporations contribute, as well as individuals. Looking for a moment at the corporations, while such outlays are included among operation expense, in reports to shareholders they are added back to income, for income tax calculations. It is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that such contributions are disbursed in the form of cash payments. This poses a problem for both shareholders and auditors as well as the income tax auditors. They must satisfy themselves that the payments were in fact made for the alleged purposes.

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The procedure of verification is usually confined to questioning the responsible officers of the corporation. Third party verification is not customarily employed. This opens the door to diversion of corporate funds to personal use under the guise of an alleged party contribution. In this manner income taxes are avoided on what would otherwise be dividends taxable in the hands of a shareholder.
This difficulty confronting auditors could be overcome by requiring corporations, as well as other taxpayers, to make these payments to political parties registered for that purpose with the income tax department. The use of cheques, with the proceeds payable to a political party, and the use of receipts would do much to alleviate the difficulty of auditors in this field, and then the secrecy clauses of the Income Tax Act should be sufficient protection for those who desire no publicity.
It is my opinion that large, single contributions are not as prevalent in Canada as in some other countries. I have in mind particularly the United States. Large corporations and wealthy individuals seeking favourable measures from the government can employ other methods to influence decisions. They engage professional lobbyists; they work through trade organizations, and organize publicity campaigns to achieve their objectives.
It is my conviction, Mr. Speaker, that we should adopt policies and practices that make contributions to political parties and election campaigns a wholesome, healthy and desirable thing for Canadians to undertake. We should encourage that effort by Canadians as an honourable service to their country. By adopting a measure such as I propose we place the stamp of approval on political contributions, and I believe it would broaden the base of contributions from many Canadians. Furthermore, I believe it would go a long way towards ensuring government of the people, by the people, for the people.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Would the hon. member permit a question? He referred to the recent devaluation of the dollar as bringing advantages to some segments of our economy and disadvantages to others. Would he not agree that the advantages far exceeded the disadvantages he spoke of?


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, I think this would require some time to answer. For example, one would have to examine the cost to municipal governments of borrowing. Many of them did borrow in the United States and had

obligations in the United States. One would have to go through all the measures, but I think perhaps one will agree that the devaluation, on balance, was a good thing. However, the regrettable thing about it was that the awareness of the proper management of foreign exchange rates should have occurred to the Canadian government at a much earlier date than it did.


Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few brief words in support of the general principle of the proposal before the house, that is, to make donations to political parties for campaign funds deductible from income tax.
I have two reasons for being brief. First, the idea is so commendable it is easy to understand that no argument in support of it is needed. Second, I would like to see it come to a vote. The proposal to allow income tax deductions for political donations is good both in theory and in practice. We allow union dues and donations to many cultural, health and religious organizations to be deductible from income tax. Why not political donations also? It seems to me in both cases the donor gives his or her money to causes in which he or she believes.
As to the practical aspect of making donations and allowing deductions, I think most of us would agree that the time is overdue for some reform to be made in our campaign fund structures and procedures. This measure, if adopted, would, I believe, amount to a modest step in the right direction. Speaking personally-and I think members of my party would agree-I would not like to see the multi-thousand dollar donations which have been given in the past to some parties made deductible for income tax purposes. I would consider them to be rather in the nature of business transactions. However, there are thousands of people in this country who give regularly to political parties out of their personal purses-and, sometimes, the purses involved are meagre. They give in the belief that the philosophy of their chosen party is such that its application would make for a better way of life for the people of Canada. This type of donation is, I believe, made in very much the same spirit as are donations to churches.
I commend the hon. member for having brought this interesting proposition to the attention of the house, and in case the measure is talked out-perhaps by the hon. member's own colleagues-I should like to put

myself on record as saying: Had I voted I would have voted in favour of this proposition.


Guy Marcoux: Mr. Speaker, 1 wish to speak briefly about the motion moved by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd). In principle, I fully agree with the hon. member when he advocates that contributions made by voters to a political party be allowed as income tax deductions by the Minister of National Revenue.
Even if I agree with the principle of the motion, I will not go as far as recognizing that all the reasons he put forward to support his motion are justified. As a matter of fact, when he says that it will facilitate the workings of democracy, I feel that he is deceiving himself a little.
Of course, there would be some advantages if contributions to party funds were disclosed. I would not say this information should necessarily be made available to the general public, but at least the officials of the taxation division should be able to see that contributions have been made to the election fund of some political parties. I do not wish to question the honesty of civil servants, but I simply wish to point out that these figures are available to them, even if they remain confidential; it would be an advantage, since we do not enjoy that privilege at the present time.
In short, this means that contributions would be aboveboard instead of being surreptitious as at present. That is a good beginning, especially if one considers that the government is responsible for so much hypocrisy on the part of taxpayers. Besides, this would enable certain taxpayers to contribute to party funds without immediately becoming hypocrites, since they could declare their contributions to fiscal authorities.
The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) said that corporations unwilling to resort to publicity would not have to do so. That is obvious. As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, if those companies deduct their contributions from their income tax, only certain officials- and the minister, if he is curious enough- would know what big companies have contributed to the election funds of certain political parties.
In spite of all that, it must be recognized that, at the present time, big companies give money to political parties, do not claim it on their income tax returns and do not seem any the worse for it. As a matter of fact, it
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seems that those companies use money which has not been declared for income tax purposes; therefore, they can give it away very easily, not by cheque but in cash; that is being done at the present time and companies do not seem to complain.
Of course, as pointed out by the hon. member, those companies must enter those amounts under operating costs. They are lucky to be able to add the money they give to political parties to their operating costs.
Of course, ordinary citizens who have contributed to the campaign fund of our party, for instance, and who have given not exactly everything they had but who nevertheless have made enormous sacrifices to support their political party, would benefit from this measure, since they are even denied the right to deduct in their income tax return the purchase price of their working tools and also the actual amount of their charitable donations, as certified by the receipts filed.
The hon. member is in favour of allowing at least a deduction concerning contributions to political parties; that would already be something. Personally, as I said a moment ago, I am entirely in favour of that principle.
I repeat though that we should not expect such a step to improve the functioning of democracy. If we did, we would be deceiving ourselves, because even if all the taxpayers' contributions were accepted, that would represent only a very small fraction of the money spent by the various parties on their election campaigns. That would not take into account either the money paid to election funds by foreign governments and companies. Indeed, it is always difficult to prove such things, but it was rumoured that during the last election campaign, our southern neighbours contributed to the fund of certain political parties, without the Canadian people even hearing about it.
As I say, even if the principle of the motion introduced by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) were adopted-it provides for the publication of certain figures

we would still be in the dark as to the money supplied by foreign companies and individuals.
The hon. member also stated that such contributions would have to be made to registered political parties. I wonder how one goes about to define a registered political party. The privileges and elections committee was asked to consider the advisability of accepting a new political party; it took a decision concerning the specific case, but it did not establish a general policy nor did it define what a political party is. It did not say

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what would happen if two registered parties had the same platform. If one translates accurately the word used by the hon. member, one wonders where it can be registered. We know that professional organizations with registered members, such as the medical college, for instance, or the bar, have lists of their registered members, but at the political party level, I have never heard of anything of the sort.
We know that there is a general agreement on the existence of recognized political parties, but there is no legal document which actually gives a definition of a political party. Lately, I put a bill to that effect on the order paper and I hope that some day we shall have the opportunity to pass it. Until then, I do not see what criteria would indicate that a political party is considered as registered.
On the other hand, the hon. member referred to a national party. Here again, what really constitutes a national party should be defined. Is it a party which presents candidates in all the provinces? Is it a party which presents candidates in a determined number of constituencies, as I advocated in the bill I submitted?
I wonder, in view of the good intentions of the hon. member, if it would not be proper to include also provincial and municipal political parties which are also in existence so as to permit the people to act in a true democratic way?
If a national political party, such as the one in which the hon. member is active, is recognized, and if his own voters are allowed to deduct certain sums for income tax purposes, I do not see why the voters of his colleague, living in the same area and running as provincial candidate, could not enjoy the same advantages.
I am merely expressing opinions to that effect, with no intention of insinuating anything about the motives which prompted the hon. member to put forward his notice of motion.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would say that passing such a motion would in no way solve the problem of political corruption. All the means now being used to corrupt the voters in some way or other, by offering them sums of money, through false publicity, false information, false impressions, will still be used, even if people who contribute to election funds to make such practices possible can deduct from their income the amount of their contributions. The problem of political corruption at election time will

therefore not be settled, and I think that we should go much further in the reform of our election practices, before reading this point.
Neither does this necessarily imply that only the stated sums were paid. An individual may declare an authorized sum and deduct it from his profits, but this does not mean that he did not pay additional amounts to finance political parties. Once again, we are going to put the taxpayer in a situation where he necessarily resorts to the very hypocrisy this motion obviously wants to eliminate, but which will be allowed because of the certain loop holes.
Yet, we should be very happy to see that this legislation gives some consideration to the average voter, and perhaps only to the average voter, who labours hard every day to earn his living, and is affected in every income tax field, or the man whose taxes are deducted at the source by the employer, for the benefit of the federal government, or the one who must fight the government to prove that he is being made to pay too much at the source and, as I said, more particularly the taxpayer who is even refused a reimbursement for the implements he had to buy himself to earn his living and, finally, the one whose receipts for charitable donations are disregarded.
Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, I am, in principle, in favour of the motion before us. If a vote is taken, I shall vote in favour, and if no vote is taken, I would have supported it. Yet, I think that between the motion presented by the hon. member and the bill which will be submitted later, there should be many amendments, and when the motion comes back as a bill, we will have to oppose it if the amendments we mentioned are not incorporated therein.


Mr. C. A. Gauthier (Roberval):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say that I support, in principle, this motion because, as the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency (Mr. Marcoux) said, it is the beginning of an undertaking intended to give us more honest elections throughout Canada.
Political parties have always had three sources of supply:
1.	A foreign source;
2.	A source provided by large corporations, foreign as well as local;
3.	Small subscribers, individuals.
I do not think that first aim of the mover is to safeguard or protect more particularly the money subscribed to the election funds from outside. I think he was rather thinking

of the amounts obtained at home, from large corporations or financial interests, because as regards the money which increasingly comes to us, as indicated by the hon. member for Quebec-Montmorency (Mr. Marcoux) a short while ago, from our neighbour country to support the election of a certain political party, I consider that givers of those sums are rewarded long before they put even one cent into the electoral fund of that party.
We have to suffer the consequences because today, we are the victims of those who sold out our economy. We are now faced with that problem, while their only aim was to come into power. Now, we have to look after the administration.
That is why I maintain that this motion should not deal with tangible contributions from abroad made to certain political parties. One can also be interested in contributions from large corporations, but I think that these big corporations have their reward, even if they did not get it before foreign countries got it by way of protection and promises made to them before they invest thousands of dollars in certain party funds.
That is why we, Social Crediters, maintain that those who were elected with the assistance of such party funds are simply the servants of those who invested in these funds, that is the servants of those big corporations or of those foreign countries.
I feel that this motion contains nevertheless a factor of interest to us. It would also serve to protect the small taxpayer who contributes a few dollars to the election fund of parties with real popular appeal. I say "parties with real popular appeal" because I believe that there are parties today which can call themselves democratic, the others being financial parties. Parties with real popular appeal are not dictatorial parties.
I think that this motion is useful in that it will prompt people to make more sacrifices in order to contribute to the funds of small popular parties, as they are called. I hope that in the near future, those parties will teach a lesson to those big financial parties, so that the people will finally see parliament pass measures beneficial to them and not good only for international financial interests.
I believe that the purpose of this motion might contribute to free the people, something we have been fighting for these last 20 years. To that end, it would be necessary to make a few changes in that motion, by including, for instance, a substantial amendment which would ensure that the tax
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reduction would benefit mainly the small taxpayer. This way, to start with we could determine the amounts. If ever, as a result of this motion, a bill were presented, it should set the maximum, so that the large companies, as I said earlier, could not benefit by this advantage to cheat the taxpayer even more.
If ever this parliament, following this motion, introduced legislation, it should protect directly all the people of Canada.
The contribution should be established and a receipt issued by the political organization. I do not say by the political party, because here we play so much on the words "political party" that one wonders finally what a political party really is, but a political organization, whether a school, municipal, provincial or federal organization. If someone works toward the election of a man who will work for the good of society, who will join a popular organization to work, not to protect the interests of big companies, but to protect the interests of the citizens, then that citizen is entitled to a receipt, because if we proceed without a receipt, it is useless to talk about a deduction for income tax purposes.
Such a receipt would have a double effect: it would favour the individual who sacrifices what little money he has to put his and his nation's ideas forward, for the protection of society as a whole; furthermore, the practice of issuing a receipt would control certain election funds.
I think that today the control of election funds is becoming more and more imperative, in view of the rise of totalitarian capitalism. I believe that if, tomorrow, we do not take steps to control the election funds of the larger parties, the people will be voting for nothing, because casting a vote will have no meaning in a few years if monetary influence of totalitarian capitalism spreads to the buying of conscience, the buying of election boxes and all the dirty doings which we know occur during an election.
I feel that such a control of campaign funds will become necessary in a few years.
The giving of receipts would be a first move in that direction. To support my point, I should like to say to the house that, in our own ridings, which are not worse than any others, election campaigns cost from $2,000 to $2,500 whereas it is reported that from $60,000 to $65,000 are considered peanuts in other ridings, as far as an election is concerned.
I can assure you that we find that most strange. People ask: "Where can all that
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money go, considering that parliament is afraid to spend $10 or $100 more than the amount authorized by the budget?" Yet, when it comes to an election campaign in a riding, $50,000, $60,000 or $70,000 are nothing but peanuts.
Consequently, I submit that the control of campaign funds is urgently required.
Besides the giving out of a receipt to every taxpayer who has contributed to election funds, I feel-and I am willing to introduce an amendment to the motion in that respect- that any money paid out by foreigners for an election campaign in Canada-in some cases it constitutes the whole campaign fund- should be taxed so that, before the election, Canada may at least derive some advantage from such taxes on foreign contributions since, after the election, it is those same countries which will reap the advantages.
Those are the few ideas I wished to express on this motion. I hope parliament will make further investigations possible in that field, so that elections may be cleaned up and controlled to a greater extent throughout Canada.
As I said a few months ago, if, after this check on campaign funds, we get the identity card to prevent people from voting five, six, seven, eight and ten times, we shall have made some contribution towards cleaning up the election procedure and we shall then give the country a government of the people, for the people and elected by the people.


Mr. M. L. Klein (Cartier):: Mr. Speaker, usually I find myself in agreement with my seatmate, the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd), but on this issue I am beginning to see eye to eye more and more on less and less. I am opposed to this resolution because I believe it would place in the hands of our taxpayers in the upper income brackets a tremendous power. I do not believe that the deduction of a contribution of $5 for income tax purposes has any meaning; but it does begin to have meaning when tax deductions include large amounts. I would fear that this system would reintroduce the system of patricians and plebeians.
The only taxpayers who I believe would take advantage of this deduction would probably be those earning in excess of $15,000; because those who earn less than that amount are probably on a budget and cannot afford to make a contribution of any sizeable amount to assist political campaigns. This would make political parties completely dependant upon the people in the upper income brackets.

According to the report of the chief electoral officer on the 26th general election there were a shade under 10 million registered voters in Canada. According to the 1963 taxation statistics there are some 4,500,000 taxpayers in Canada. Of this number approximately 22 per cent pay tax on incomes of $15,000 and over, and simple arithmetic shows that less than 10 per cent of the voting population of this country would be the main contributors to election funds. If this were the case it would mean that political parties would be conscious of their electoral responsibilities vis-a-vis the 10 per cent who were supplying all the money. It would also mean that persons in the upper income brackets would be able to make contributions to political parties in off election years; and in certain instances people in the higher income brackets, in order to become taxable in a lower bracket, would make contributions to political parties even in off election years.
In my view the government should provide election funds for political parties. Some equitable basis should be provided whereby the government would supply the money to political parties in election campaigns. We should also study means to try and reduce the cost of election campaigns, which is mounting every year. In studying means to make elections cheaper instead of more expensive, we should consider bringing the voter to the polls. This is one of the reasons elections are so costly. Candidates have to rent cars or ask their contributors to supply the money to rent them for this purpose. If when he cast his vote the voter were supplied with a certificate by the returning officer which could be attached to his income tax return, thus giving him a credit, whether it be for $2 or $5, and thus reducing his tax liability, this would encourage him to go to the poll and vote.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: A very good idea.


Milton L. Klein: You like it?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Sure.


Milton L. Klein: I think we have only to look at our neighbour to the south to see how much money is being spent for election purposes. Take the primaries which are now going on. Candidates are now spending thousands of dollars on delegates for conventions so that these delegates will commit themselves either to this or that candidate for the presidency of the United States. Radio and television costs are going up. If the government were to allot radio and television time to political parties free of charge, or if they were to pay

for this time, and each candidate were entitled to two mailings and a specified number of radio and television appearances, there would be equality for all candidates in elections in Canada. This is the view I put forward.
I am strenuously opposed to this resolution. I think it is a wrong step in the wrong direction, and I do not think it would redound to the credit of Canada.


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, when my hon. friend drew his conclusions I wonder whether he would tell us whether he read the motion. It says-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order.


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member has completely misconstrued my remarks. As a matter of fact, he was making an argument in support of them.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order, please. When the debate on this matter is concluded I think the hon. member will have his opportunity to reply. If he wishes to reply at that time he may make any remarks he likes.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I think it is abnormal for any political party to have to spend considerable sums of money during an election. There should definitely be certain limits set to stop much extravagant spending. We, on this side of the house, are well aware of the fact as, during the last election, we actually suffered much from that extravagant spending, from those large sums of money spent all over Canada, including money from the United States. Consequently, I think that the government should take a stand in this respect, in order that we may have truly democratic elections, and that money be not an item influencing the popular vote. Indeed, the people should be free to vote according to their conscience, and that is why I believe in the necessity of enacting significant reforms at the earliest possible opportunity. I know that the government may refuse to take such action, because it probably feels guilty about the action it took during the last election.
When we consider the attitude of certain political organizers, like Mr. Keith Davey, for instance, who held out the considerable advantages of an election fund and what have you, we cannot but deplore the fact that there should be, in our democratic system, a party with so much power, with so much money that democracy is affected. For this reason, I believe that the government
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should take action to stop certain political organizers from resorting to blackmail and influencing Canadian public opinion with money, as we were able to see during the last election.
Mr. Speaker, it is abnormal for money to come even from the United States, because when they elect a government of their choice, the Americans are able, afterwards, to try and control the Canadian economy, and I feel that it would be in the public interest that legislation be introduced as soon as possible, so that money will not be a cause of influence during election campaigns, that we may have really democratic elections, and that the people may judge candidates on their value, according to the platform of their party, and that they may not be influenced by the money which is distributed generously, as happened during the last election campaign.


Mr. M. J. Moreau (York-Scarborough):: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member allow me a question?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Maurice John Moreau: Can the hon. member tell us why he did not introduce this reform when his party was in office?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, we did not make that reform because we did not have the money to do it. We had no money at all during the election campaign.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, one has only to check the number of hours that this government used on television, throughout the country, over the national television networks, and one will see that it cost the Liberal government at least three quarters of a million dollars, and that only for one television station.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. I think the debate is now going beyond the bounds of the resolution before the house.


Mr. Grant Deachman (Vancouver Quadra):: Mr. Speaker, in entering this debate may I say I cannot find myself exactly in agreement with the mover of the motion, and I join with another hon. member on this side of the house who did not express entirely the same views as those put forward by the mover of the motion. I consider that quite a few of the objections raised were valid. Today gifts for charitable purposes are deductible under the Income Tax Act. When we
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Louis-Joseph Pigeon: We are honest.


Grant Deachman: I suggest to him that if such donations were allowed as a deduction for charitable purposes they would find it even more difficult, because those who have been in the habit of dividing their contributions among two or three parties would no longer consider doing so.
These are some of the reasons why this measure would not work in the way the mover of the motion thought it would. There is another factor of interest and I should like to close on this note. What we seek, so far as contributions to political parties is concerned, is to broaden the base and enlarge the number of people who make such contributions, rather than to narrow it. Any system which tends to narrow the base and restrict contributions to larger and larger sums from fewer and fewer people and corporations is not entirely in the best interests of the parties concerned, or of the people of Canada.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. The hour for the consideration of private members' business has expired.


Reid Scott: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think the record should show that the Liberals are filibustering once again and preventing votes on these private members' matters.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the acting house leader for the order of business for tomorrow. We know the business for Friday and next Monday and Tuesday. If he mentions interim supply would he indicate the period of time for which interim supply is being asked?


John Watson MacNaught: Tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, the first item of business will be the consideration of interim supply for one month.
Business of the House
Then we will go on with the second reading of the bill to amend the Bank Act and the Quebec Savings Banks Act. Then we will resume debate on second reading of Bill No. S-17, respecting the territorial sea and fishing zones of Canada. If there is any time left we will consider the resolutions preceding the Export Credits Insurance Act and the Farm Credit Act.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, May 21, 1964