1964-03-04

[Stage Direction]
RAPHERS* INFORMATION FORM
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. There has been drawn to my attention a form headed "Members' stenographers branch" which says that the information required on the form must be given promptly for cheque purposes. One of the questions the stenographers are asked to answer concerns racial origin.


Mr. Woolliams:: It says "race".


Stanley Howard Knowles: My hon. friend from Bow River says it is "race". That happens to be the French language portion; in English it reads "racial origin".


An hon. Member:: No, it is both.


Stanley Howard Knowles: At any rate, Mr. Speaker, in view of the terms of the Canadian Bill of Rights and in view of the terms of the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act, I wonder whether this form should not be looked at; and if it does violate the statutes of this parliament should it not be withdrawn or altered immediately?


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: If that is the general wish of hon. members, so be it.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, on Monday, March 2 I was questioned in the' house concerning the meeting held in Quebec city on Saturday, February 29, on the subject of the administration of services for Eskimos in northern Quebec.
Present at the meeting in Quebec city on behalf of the province of Quebec were Hon. Rene Levesque and Hon. Claire Kirkland-Casgrain, and present representing the federal government besides myself were the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
Last Monday I stated to the house that a report of the discussions was being made to
the cabinet and thereafter might be announced in the house. With the permission of the house I am now in a position to table the understanding reached at the February 29 meeting, and I may say that the same information is being made available by the provincial authorities in Quebec city today. I am tabling two copies of the memorandum of understanding in English and two copies in French. Perhaps if it met the wishes of hon. members, Mr. Speaker, the memorandum, which runs to just over a page, might be printed as an annex to today's Hansard, to save the time of the house at this stage and to provide for easy reference.
The memorandum is not an agreement, nor is it an agreement to agree. It does constitute a statement outlining a consensus with respect to certain basic principles and conditions which, in the event of an agreement, are common to the two governments. Provision is made to refer these principles and conditions to a joint committee of federal and provincial officials who are charged with the responsibility of preparing a draft agreement, as well as the terms of reference for the commission which will be asked to receive the views and comments of the Eskimos.
The Eskimos will be consulted through a commission appointed jointly by the federal and provincial governments, and no agreement will be concluded with the province of Quebec until this is done. I am satisfied that the principles embodied in the memorandum of understanding fully protect the essential interests of the Eskimos. I would like to add, Mr. Speaker, only that the discussions with the Quebec ministers were constructive, and that a good foundation has been laid for a thorough examination in the coming days of the many matters involved.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister has seen fit to refer to the memorandum, would it not be better for him to read the memorandum so the house will be able to understand the explanation which he has given?


Arthur Laing: I have no objection to reading the memorandum Mr. Speaker, if I can recover it.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Read it a little more slowly and distinctly this time.

Services for Quebec Eskimos


Mr. Speaker:: I understand that the house gave consent to have it printed as an appendix to Hansard, but we are in the hands of the house. Does the house desire that the memorandum be read?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


John George Diefenbaker: If the house does not agree, there has not been any consent to its being appended at all. That is not what was before the house, as I recall. In any event, we should like to know what is the explanation. We cannot understand the explanation unless we have the document.


Mr. Favreau:: If it is the wish of the majority of the house, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the statement be read.


Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, this document is entitled "Understanding reached at February 29 meeting", and it is as follows.
It is agreed that Canada cannot divest itself of its power to legislate regarding Eskimos, a power which has been recognized by the supreme court judgment of 1939. Without limiting this authority, Canada is prepared to have Quebec administer Eskimo affairs as part of Quebec's general administrative responsibilities in the province, it being understood that:
1.	The cultural and economic ties of the Eskimo of Ungava with the larger Eskimo community would be retained and developed, and the Eskimo language and the religion to which they belong will be respected;
2.	The Quebec government pledges itself to respect the special interest which the Eskimos may have under the Quebec boundaries extension act (1912);
3.	The Eskimos, after the transfer, shall continue to enjoy at least the same services that they are receiving at the present time from the federal government, and that Quebec will assist them to reach as rapidly as possible a standard of living comparable to that of other Quebec citizens;
4.	The governments of Canada and Quebec undertake to consult jointly the Eskimos of nouveau Quebec.
The consultation, that is the communication of the terms of the agreement, excluding however the financial provisions thereof, and the receiving of the views and comments of the Eskimos concerned, will be made through a commission, consisting of one or more members appointed jointly by the federal and provincial governments. The functions of this commission will be to explain the conditions of the agreement, as well as the programs for the future, in terms clear to the Eskimos and to interpret and report to the


two governments on the views and comments which will have been expressed to the commission.
Both governments agree that such consultation is a prior condition to the execution of the agreement. After the commission has reported, the two governments must also agree upon what modifications and recommendations suggested in the report should be accepted and included in the final text of the instrument of transfer.



TABLING OP REPORT OF SAINT JOHN RIVER BOARD

Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to advise that the governments of Canada and of New Brunswick have agreed to the release as a public document of the report "Effects of storage on power generation in New Brunswick" and I take this opportunity to table a copy of this report.
This report was prepared by the Saint John river board established jointly by the two governments on March 24, 1959. The board consisted of two members each from Canada and from New Brunswick, and was asked by the two governments to:
-plan, supervise and carry out an investigation to determine how the present and future power developments in New Brunswick would he affected by the development and operation of storage on the upper Saint John river and its tributaries.
I am pleased to state that the Canadian members of this board were two members of the staff of the water resources branch of my department.
The board presented its report to the two governments in June, 1960 and since that time the report has been used by New Brunswick in its planning and development of the Saint John river for power generation purposes. The report is now being made public because its contents may be useful to other public and private agencies concerned with integrated river development. In particular it may be useful to those participating in the technical talks between Canada and the United States relative to the Passamaquoddy tidal power project and the upper Saint John river in Maine.
The findings of the Saint John river board report which are of interprovincial and international importance are summarized as follows:
(a)	The power potential of the Saint John river in New Brunswick would be economical without upstream storage at Rankin rapids and without an energy interchange with Nova Scotia.

(b)	An energy exchange with Nova Scotia designed to give maximum system economy would accelerate the development of this power potential.
(c)	Small potential storages on tributaries of the Saint John river would have a limited benefit to the power development in systems where no storage was developed at the Rankin rapids site.
(d)	The development of the Rankin rapids storage while not affecting the ultimate installed capacity at downstream plants would provide temporary capacity benefits and continuing energy benefits to power developments on the Saint John river in New Brunswick. The inclusion of the Passamaquoddy project would have a negligible effect on these benefits.
(e)	Co-ordination of the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia power systems with utilities in Maine would produce monetary savings, particularly in the period up to 1980.
I regret that the supply of copies of this report is not sufficient to provide them to individual members. However, they will be able to have access to it among the papers of the house, and in the meantime I am having a summary of the report prepared in ample quantity for those desiring copies.



TABLING OF REPORT OF NELSON RIVER PROGRAMMING BOARD

Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement at this time on the preliminary studies of the electric power potential of the Nelson river which have been carried out by the Nelson river programming board under the agreement of February 18, 1963, between the governments of Canada and Manitoba.
In entering this agreement the government of Canada had regard to several factors, among which were these:
(1)	The government was aware that a large potential for hydro power existed on the Nelson river in northern Manitoba.
(2)	That the potential for power production was much greater than the growing southern Manitoba markets could absorb for many years to come.
(3)	That large power markets probably existed in southern Ontario and in the north central United States which might be interested in obtaining substantial sources of power supply.
(4)	That the trend in capital costs of hydro developments could have the effect of pricing undeveloped sites out of the power market of the future.
(5)	That development and delivery of Nelson river power to southern Manitoba or other distant markets at rates competitive with
Nelson River Board Report alternative sources would entail large units of installation to permit the advantages of economy of scale.
(6)	That the preliminary investigations undertaken at an estimated cost of $1 million equally shared between Canada and Manitoba were designed to determine the merits of proceeding with more comprehensive and detailed studies.
I am pleased to be able to report that a great deal of engineering and geological field work as well as preliminary electrical system studies have now been completed, and the Nelson river programming board has just submitted its interim report to the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba.
In brief, the report indicates that there is a hydraulic power potential in excess of 4 million kilowatts on the Nelson river, and that on the basis of current rates of market development in Manitoba, approximately 2 million kilowatts will be surplus to Manitoba's requirements for perhaps 25 years. The preliminary studies confirmed the availability of power sites which are eminently suited for development, and revealed on site and delivered power costs which are very encouraging and which indicate the possibility of substantial blocks of Nelson river power being able to reach the markets of southern Ontario and the north-central United States at competitive rates.
The development of a major source of low cost hydroelectric power in Manitoba would clearly have important effects on neighbouring provinces and on the over-all national power picture. If a major block of Nelson river power is exported outside of Canada or to southern Manitoba, it will appreciably improve our balance of payments situation with the United States.
In view of these general considerations and the findings contained in the board report, the government of Canada is now prepared to enter into discussions with the government of Manitoba with a view to arriving at satisfactory arrangements for the next stage of more detailed studies of the Nelson river power development program.
I would now ask permission of the house to table the interim report of the Nelson river programming board.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house agree to the tabling of the report?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Hon. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: Mr. Speaker, if I may make a brief comment I should like to express appreciation to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources for bringing this report before the house. I believe I have a question on the order

Questions
paper concerning this matter at the present time. The report provides information substantiating the confidence that the former federal government in conjunction with the Manitoba government had concerning the great potential of this northern Manitoba river.
I think it is more than coincidence that this statement should be made during the time we are discussing the Columbia river, because the decision that was made to undertake this study in co-operation with the government of Manitoba concerning the power potential of the Nelson river was a part of the broad overall national policy of developing the resources of Canada as quickly as possible. It is encouraging to the former government, which initiated this study along with many others, that the results are so positive that the present government has decided to continue work along these lines.
I should also like to take this opportunity to express congratulations to the government of Manitoba, because certainly from the information the minister has given us the optimism of that government concerning the potential of this northern river has been more than justified by the preliminary information.



FISHERIES ACT


Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-73, to amend the Fisheries Act (forfeiture floor).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Chesley William Carter: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide a minimum amount of protection to individual self-employed fishermen and small operators against the tyrannical oppression which is sometimes perpetrated under the Fisheries Act when, for very minor infractions, the crown confiscates all the fisherman's nets and gear and leaves him without any means of providing a livelihood for himself and family.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the same caveat given by the Speaker some few days ago, is it the pleasure of the house that the hon. member shall have leave to introduce the said bill?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Crouse: 1.	Is the Department of Transport building a satellite tracking station at or near Charleston, Queens county, Nova Scotia and, if so, when will the station be built?
2.	Were tenders called for its construction, and, if so (a) what is the name of the successful bidder (b) what is the amount of the contract as awarded (c) what is the approximate number of persons who will be engaged in construction of this station (d) what is the approximate number of permanent employees contemplated at this station?


Mr. Pickersgill:: 1. Yes. The department will construct a satellite communication ground station near Charleston, Nova Scotia. Tenders have been called for a site preparation contract. It is planned to call tenders for the building contract early this spring.
2.	(a) N/A; (b) N/A. However over-all cost of the station, including electronic equipment, will be in the neighbourhood of $5,000,000. (c) Until award of the building contract, it will not be possible to estimate accurately the number of persons to be employed, (d) About 20.


LOBSTER CONSERVATION OFFICER, LUNENBURG COUNTY, N.S.
Mr. Crouse: Will the Minister of Fisheries give consideration to the provision of a lobster fisheries conservation officer in the Mahone Bay, Hubbards area of Lunenburg county, for the protection of this fisheries resource?


Mr. Robichaud:: The Minister of Fisheries is glad to give consideration to the provision of conservation officers in any area where there is proven need. In the case of Mahone Bay, at the moment there would appear to be sufficient protection from the following: A fishery officer (J. A. MacDuff) at Lunenburg, six miles from Mahone Bay; a fishery officer (W. R. Feener) at Chester between Mahone Bay and Hubbards; a warden (F. Bremner) at Chester; a warden (H. H. Morse) at Chester.
During the summer and fall there are two guardians and a chartered boat employed to patrol Mahone Bay and islands and one guardian on Tancook island for the Blandford and Tancook area.


PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND-NEW BRUNSWICK CAUSEWAY
Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Has the government decided that the proposed causeway linking Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick shall consist of two miles of underwater tunnel?
2.	Does this imply that rail travel will not be carried?
3.	Has the estimated cost of the project been reduced from $105 million to $80 million?

4.	Upon what facts and considerations has such reduction been based?
5.	Has the combination of underwater and causeway construction contributed to an increase in the length of time contemplated for the completion of the project?


Mr. Deschatelels:: 1. Plans for a tunnel to serve as part of the crossing are being considered.
2.	No.
3.	A reduction in cost is one of the main considerations in the study. New techniques would seem to indicate a reduction in estimates previously made.
4.	Answered by 1 and 3.
5.	No.


INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE ON MIGRATORY WATERFOWL
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	When was the joint international committee on migratory waterfowl established?
2.	What is the membership of this committee?
3.	What meetings has it held?
4.	Has the committee reached any conclusions on problems relating to the conservation of migratory waterfowl and, if so (a) what are they (b) have any of these recommendations been implemented?


Arthur Laing: 1. May, 1961,
2.	From Canada: Mr. E. A. Cote, Mr. A. T. Davidson, Dr. D. A. Munro.
From the United States; Mr. Frank P. Briggs, Mr. Daniel H. Janzen, Mr. John A. Baker, Mr. Gladwin E. Young.
3.	August 16 and 17, 1961

Washington, D.C.; October 2 and 3, 1961-Ottawa, Ontario; February 20 and 21, 1962-Washington, D.C.; May 20 and 21, 1962-Regina, Saskatchewan; Dec. 10 and 11, 1962-Mattamuskeet, N. Carolina; June 10 and 11, 1963-Quebec, Quebec; October 21 and 22, 1963-Klamath Falls, Oregon.
4 (a). Major recommendations: (i) Canada and the United States should undertake nation-wide programs to inform the public about problems in migratory waterfowl management, (ii) Because the maintenance of duck breeding habitat in the prairie region is a primary problem, means should be found to secure wetlands in that region in their natural state, (iii) Because the harvest of waterfowl must be kept within the limits of annual production, the co-operating nations must have accurate data on the extent of harvest in each country, (iv) Because the wetlands upon which over 70 per cent of North American ducks breed are privately owned, a means of directing a more economic return
Questions
to those land owners must be found, (v) Because of the need for more specific information on the habitat requirements of waterfowl, and the factors affecting population levels and harvesting rates of a number of species, research programs and facilities should be extended and improved.
4 (b). The government has taken the following steps to meet the recommendations of the international migratory bird committee: (i) The brochure "Waterfowl-a resource in danger?" was published in September 1963 in English and French (174,000 copies). An explanatory leaflet on the regulations governing the hunting of migratory game birds has been printed in English and French (274,000 copies). Production of a colour motion picture on waterfowl and waterfowl habitat has begun. An illustrated presentation of the same information, designed for young readers, is being prepared, (ii) As a pilot project, 20-year agreements for the maintenance of potholes have been concluded with 11 land owners in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. The agreements cover 1,184 potholes, totalling 1,011 acres scattered throughout 6,560 acres of farmland. (iii) The government has approved in principle the carrying out of a nation-wide annual survey of the kill of migratory birds. Implementation has been delayed pending consideration by the Canadian council of resource ministers of a proposal for institution of a federal migratory bird hunting licence, (iv) This question is under study. See also (ii) above, (v) Research projects are going ahead with the object of increasing our knowledge of the characteristics and distribution of different types of potholes. Research is also being carried on which is basic to the development of plans for multiple use of agriculturally marginal lands. Research on population levels of migratory birds is a continuing activity. Plans for accelerating all these activities in the next several years are being considered.
GRANTS TO CLASS "a" FAIRS


Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Since 1957, what grants have been made to class 'A" fairs by the Department of Agriculture?
2.	What funds are available for this purpose in 1963-64?
3.	What projects are contemplated for this program?


Mr. Hays:: 1. Since 1957 the following grants have been paid to class "A" fairs and exhibitions in Canada by the Canada Department of Agriculture under the authority of exhibition grants regulations.
510	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
			Permanent		
Fiscal	Junior	improvements	Major	year	Judges	activities	and repairs	Capital	Total1962-63	12,217.00	22,918.06	72,103.78	139,343.34	246,582.181961-62	12,163.41	22,855.86	66,322.13	81,284.79	182,626.191960-61	11,231.88	20,745.98	62,779.61	80,692.29	175,449.761959-60	11,409.37	20,591.48	61,756.68	45,934.96	139,692.491958-59	11,335.00	20,348.39	59,826.84	191,621.72	283,131.95Total	58,356.66	107,459.77	322,789.04	538,877.10	1,027,482.572.	Funds were made available to class "A" and class "B" fairs and exhibitions for the fiscal year 1963-64 as follows: annual grants, $310,000; building grants, $270,000.3.	Expenditures under exhibition grantsregulations for 1963-64 in respect to class "A" fairs and exhibitions for the following: (1) judges' fees for each class "A" fair up to a maximum of $500; (2) junior activities for each class "A" fair up to a maximum of $1,000;	(3) permanent improvements and
repairs for each class "A" fair up to a maximum of $3,000; (4) major capital grants, effective June 1962, major capital grants were suspended and this suspension is still in effect. However, there are a number of agreements for major capital grants that were entered into or committed prior to June, 1962. Major capital grants covering such agreements are paid as the projects are completed.


CONFERENCE ON LONG DISTANCE POWER TRANSMISSION
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	When was the federal-provincial conference on long distance power transmission held?
2.	What decisions were reached at the conference?
3.	Has any further action been taken since the conference?


Arthur Laing: 1. On 19 March 1962 in Ottawa.
2.	The ministers decided to establish a working committee of provincial and federal experts to ascertain the scope and nature of the technical and economic problems and to recommend those aspects in which studies should first be undertaken.
3.	Yes, the working committee, their technical advisers and a Canadian firm of consulting engineers have been actively studying the question of long distance transmission.


REDUCTIONS IN DEFENCE MANPOWER AND EXPENDITURES, ELGIN CONSTITUENCY
Mr. McBain: 1.	What is the estimated reduction in manpower strength of the reserve force unit of the Elgin 27th armoured regiment?
2.	What is the estimated reduction in defence spending in the constituency of Elgin for the fiscal year 1964?
Answer: 1. and 2. As announced in the House of Commons on December 5, 1963, the

planned reduction in the militia will necessitate a major reorganization. A select group of militia officers, under the chairmanship of Brigadier Suttie are examining this problem in order to make recommendations as to the way in which the reorganization should be achieved. Until the committee has submitted its report, it is not known whether the reserve force unit of the Elgin 27 th armoured regiment will be affected, nor can an estimate be given of the reduction, if any, of defence spending in the constituency of Elgin for the fiscal year 1964.


NAVAL SIGNAL STATION, BLANDFORD, N.S.
Mr. Crouse: Is the Department of Transport planning the construction of a naval signal station at Bland-ford, Nova Scotia?
Answer: No, but the Department of National Defence is constructing a naval radio station near Blandford, Nova Scotia.


SUBMISSION OF CANADIAN UNIVERSITIES FOUNDATION
Mr. Knowles: 1.	Has consideration been given to the proposals made to the government by the Canadian universities foundation in its submission to the Minister of Finance made in December 1963?
2.	What are the results of such consideration?
3.	What specific steps are being taken in response to this submission?


Mr. Davis:: 1. Yes.
2. and 3. When decisions have been reached, announcement will be made in due course.


PENSIONS OF RETIRED C.N.R. EMPLOYEES
Mr. Knowles: 1.	How many retired employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of pensions of less than $25 per month?
2.	How many are in receipt of a pension of $25 per month?
3.	How many are in receipt of pensions of (a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month (b) $30 to $39.99 per month (c) $40 to $49.99 per month (d) $50 to $59.99 per month (e) $60 to $69.99 per month (f) $70 to $79.99 per month (g) $80 to $89.99 per month (h) $90 to $99.99 per month (i) $100 to $124.99 per month (j) $125 to $149.99 per month (k) $150 to $199.99 per month (1) $200 per month and over?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The management of Canadian	National	Railways advise		as follows:
1.	393.			
2.	2,498.			
3.	Amount	of	pension:	Number$ 25.01	to !	$ 29.99	92230.00	to	39.99	1,69640.00	to	49.99	1,38550.00	to	59.99	1,03560.00	to	69.99	95670.00	to	79.99	98580.00	to	89.99	1,01890.00	to	99.99	1,025100.00	to	124.99	2,708125.00	to	149.99	2,400150.00	to	199.99	3,377200.00	and	over	3,841
Questions


LIVERPOOL HARBOUR, N.S.  DREDGING
Mr. Crouse: Does the Department of Public Works plan to dredge Liverpool harbour in Queens county and, if so (a) when will public tenders for dredging be called (b) what amount will be expended on this project?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No.


IMPROVEMENT OF FISH HATCHERY, GRAFTON, N.S.
Mr. Crouse: Will the Minister of Fisheries give consideration to enlarging and improving the fish hatchery at Grafton, Queens county, Nova Scotia, in order to provide additional supplies of game fish for Kedge-makooge lake park and the tourists visiting this area?
In a number of cases the amounts of pensions paid by Canadian National Railways do not represent the total pensions payable to employees for railway service. Pensions payable by the C.N.R. to international employees (service in both Canada and the United States) relate to their service in Canada only. Such employees also receive annuities payable under the U.S. railroad retirement act or the social security act for service performed in the United States. For example, in the group receiving pensions of under $25 from the C.N.R., there are over 71 former international employees who also receive U.S. railroad retirement or social security annuities in respect of C.N.R. service rendered in the United States. The balance of this group consists of employees who elected early retirement (before age 65) with reduced basic ($25) pensions, and employees who had very short service and small contributions.


C.N.R. TENDERS FOR ROLLING STOCK
Mr. MacEwan: Has the Canadian National Railways called tenders for rolling stock and, if so (a) what are the types of the units and (b) for how many of each unit have tenders been called (c) when do the tenders close?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The management of
Canadian National Railways advise as follows: tenders have been called for the following types of rolling stock:
Types
70-ton triple hopper cars
50-ton 50 ft. 6 in. box cars
90-ton ore cars
70-ton 51 ft. 6 in. all steel flat cars with wrap around bulkhead
Tender
Quantity closing date
500	Dec.	4, 1963.250	Nov.	19, 1963.150	Dec.	9, 1963.100	Feb.	10, 1964.
20220-33i
Answer: The Minister of Fisheries is willing to investigate the lack of game fish at Kedge-makooge lake park. If necessary, additional fish will be made available from our already large hatchery establishments in the mari-times. Extension of the local hatchery could only be justified after the available supply was exhausted.


DEPARTMENTAL RESEARCH INTO USES FOR BUTTERFAT
Mr. Maiheson: What research has been conducted by the research branch of the Department of Agriculture with a view to discovering new uses for butterfat, and if any, when, and with what result?


Harry William Hays: The wider use of butterfat is under continuous consideration by the food research institute, research branch. Work has been aimed largely at improving the acceptability of butterfat. During the past five years this has embraced studies of the chemical compounds that contribute the flavour to butter, of the flavour stability of butter oil in consumer packages, and of the plastic range of butter, i.e., spreadability.
This work has permitted an understanding of the nature of the strong flavoured butters with which Canadian butter comes into competition; has shown that the flavour of butter oil in consumer packages can be maintained satisfactorily; and has resulted in processes whereby the spreadability of butter at refrigerator temperature can be improved.
st. John's ambulance training, military


PERSONNEL
Mr. Matheson: What is the number of military personnel trained to St. John's ambulance standards by Department of National Defence instructors in each year 1953 to 1963 inclusive: and how many qualified in each year for certificates, vouchers, medallions, and labels?
Questions

Answer:
Year	Certificates	Vouchers
1953	32	
1954	212	
1955	429	181956	478	551957	1,127	1331958	2,340	2041959	3,974	2251960	12,421	3991961	22,623	7751962	79,301	1,2641963	24,230	2,908Totals	147,167	5,981Medallions	Labels	Total 32 2122	2	4517	6	54624	11	1,29555	24	2,62361	28	4,288100	65	12,985189	90	23,677244	98	80,907493	332	27,9631,175	656	154,979


NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT CANAL
Mr. Maiheson: What studies have been conducted of the proposals authored by Thomas W. Kierans and O. K. H. Kierans for a great replenishment and northern development canal?


Arthur Laing: This proposal, often referred to as the grand canal, was described by Mr. T. W. Kierans before the standing committee on mines, forests and waters on 11 April 1960. While no detailed studies were undertaken, preliminary examination indicated that it was physically possible but not now economically feasible.
As the water resources of each province are administered by and belong to that province, subject to certain federal responsibilities, e.g. regarding international waters, fisheries and navigation, any feasibility study of a diversion scheme such as this should be undertaken in co-operation with the provinces concerned.


RECONSTRUCTION OF BREAKWATER APPROACH ROAD, MACDONALD COVE, N.S.
Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the Department of Public Works to widen and reconstruct the approach road to the breakwater at MacDonald cove. Pictou county, Nova Scotia, during the fiscal year 1954-65?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Yes, subject to the approval of funds by parliament.


REPAIRS TO C.C.G.S. &quot;AUK&quot;
Mr. MacEwan: Were tenders called for repairs to C.C.G.S. Auk and, if so (a) what were the names of the tenderers and' the amounts of the various tenders (b) to whom will the contract be awarded, and what is the completion date?


John Whitney Pickersgill: (a) Tenders for damage repairs and annual refit of C.C.G.S. Auk were called from the following firms: Ferguson Industries Ltd., Pictou, N.S. $54,762, Halifax
[Mr. Matheson.l
Shipyards Ltd., Halifax, N.S. $65,129.17, Saint John Shipbuilding & Drydock Co. Ltd., Saint John, N.B. $72,456.
(b) Contract was awarded to Halifax Shipyards Ltd., second lowest tenderer, rather than Ferguson Industries Ltd., because of heavy concentration of ice in the Northumberland strait and the river leading to Pictou harbour. It was considered unsafe to take this vessel through as a dead ship in tow.
Completion date was set for February 19 but bad weather with heavy snow has delayed this approximately one week.


J. T. HOBART, EXTERNAL AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT
Mr. Baldwin: 1.	Was Mr. J. T. Hobart, recognized as chief of the training division of the external aid office, administrative officer 5 when it assumed the responsibility of the economic and technical assistance branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce on November 1, 1960?	.	. _	.
2 Was the Civil Service Commission of Canada requested to advertise by open competition the position of chief, training section, technical assistance division, external aid office, Ottawa?
3.	If so (a) by whom was the request made (b) was it made verbally or in writing, and (c) what steps did the civil service commission take to satisfy itself that it was necessary to hold an open competition to fill this position?
4.	When did Mr. J. T. Hobart cease performing the duties advertised in civil service competition No. 62-569, on whose instruction, and was the instruction given verbally or in writing?
5 If another person has been assigned to the duties of the chief of training section of the external aid office (a) when did the assignment take effect and (b) what is the nature of the duties to which Mr. Hobart has been re-assigned?
6.	Has Mr. J. T. Hobart been invited to resign from the civil service of Canada or from his position in the external aid office or both and, if so, by whom, when, and for what reason?
7.	If Mr. J. T. Hobart has been demoted, is his demotion subject to appeal under the Civil Service Act and regulations?


Mr. Lamonlagne:: 1. No.
2. Yes.

3.	(a) By the external aid office; (b) In writing; (c) Upon receipt of the department's request that the position be filled by open competition, the civil service commission having reviewed the qualifications required for this position, in consultation with the deputy head and having taken into consideration previous recruiting experience, concurred in this request and advertised accordingly.
4.	Such functions were never assigned to Mr. Hobart.
5.	(a) The successful candidate in the open competition for the position of administrative officer 7, chief, training section, technical assistance division, external aid office, was certified in this position on April 1, 1963; (b) Mr. Hobart continues to be a staff member of the training section.
6.	Not by any member of the C.S.C. or the E.A.O.
7.	According to present civil service commission records, Mr. J. T. Hobart has not been demoted.


Mr. Nowlan: Since the negotiation of the agreement with Russia for the sale of grain and grain products, what quantities have been shipped, up until December 31, 1963,	from	(a)	ports	on the	St.Lawrence river (b)	the port	of	Saint	John	(c)
the port of Halifax?
Answer: The following quantities of grain and grain equivalent of grain products were exported to all destinations during the period September 16, 1963, the signatory date of the Canada-U.S.S.R. trade agreement, and December 31, 1963:
Millions of bushels
St. Lawrence	ports	116.7Port of Saint	John	12.3Port of Halifax	6.3


Mr. Nowlan: 1.	What was the total cost up to December 31, 1963, of the presence in the Congo of Canadian armed forces, including the cost of transportation to and from Canada of the members of the armed forces and of supplies therefor?
2.	Of this amount, how much, if any, has been or is to be repaid to Canada by the United Nations?
3.	In addition to the foregoing, what liability has Canada incurred in connection with the activities in the Congo of the United Nations?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. $11,929,520 which includes the initial air lift costs, transportation of service personnel and supplies.
2.	$6,145,172 is recoverable. Billings have been prepared and submitted quarterly to the United Nations and payments have been regularly made to Canada. At the present time,
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the amount $846,734 is to be recovered from the U.N., including recent billings.
3. Since the inception of the United Nations activities in the Congo, Canada has been assessed or has made voluntary contributions in the following amounts: (a) assessed share (at a rate of 3.12 per cent) of the cost of the United Nations operations in the Congo (ONUC) for the period July 14, 1960, to June 30, 1964, U.S. $8,554,757; (b) ad hoc voluntary contributions towards helping to meet the shortfall in the ONUC ad hoc account which resulted from the granting of reductions in the rates of assessment for certain economically less developed countries during the period July 1 to December 31, 1963, U.S. $173,000; (c) voluntary contribution to the United Nations civilian fund for the Congo in 1961, U.S. $1,000,000; (d) voluntary contribution in 1960 of 20 million pounds of canned pork and 20 million pounds of whole milk powder for the assistance of Congolese refugees, Cdn. $6,200.



DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY


Mr. Nowlan: 1.	As of December 31, 1963, excluding the staff of the minister's office how many persons were employed in the Department of Industry?
2.	Of the foregoing, how many were formerly employed by or on loan from the former Department of Defence Production, and how many were formerly employed by or on loan from the Department of Trade and Commerce?


Mr. Drury:: 1. Seventy three persons.
2.	Five persons, transferred from Department of Defence Production; 31 persons, transferred from Department of Trade and Commerce; 21 casual employees; 16 persons employed from outside the government service.



MODEL OF NORTHUMBERLAND CAUSEWAY

Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	Is it intended to construct in New Brunswick a large-scale model of the proposed Northumberland causeway and, if so, in what part of the province?
2.	Was consideration given to constructing such a model in Prince Edward Island and, if so, what were the factors militating against locating the project in that province?
3.	What is the estimated cost of the proposed model?
4.	What departments of government will be involved in the project?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. Yes, at Coldbrook, New Brunswick.
2.	Yes, all government buildings on Prince Edward Island available for such a project were investigated, but none were found suitable, mainly because of lack of necessary clear floor space.
3.	Cost of constructing the proposed model is $55,000.
4.	The Department of Public Works.

Questions



CURBS ON CIGARETTE ADVERTISING

Mr. Orlikow: Is the government considering curbs on cigarette advertising such as proposed by the federal trade commission in the United States, to wit (a) requiring every cigarette advertisement, package and carton to contain a clear warning that cigarette smoking is dangerous to health (b) prohibiting any statement or implication in any cigarette advertisement that smoking promotes good health or physical well-being, and (c) preventing any advertisement asserting that one brand of cigarettes is less harmful to health than another, unless the advertiser has substantiated that claim in advance?


Miss LaMarsh:: The government is studying all appropriate measures concerned with the implications of the relationship between smoking and health. These include such controls on advertising as may be required to supplement voluntary action taken in the public interest by those concerned.
The Department of National Health and Welfare is developing, in collaboration with the provinces and professional and voluntary health organizations, the most effective program for the reduction or elimination of the hazard associated with cigarette smoking.



P.O. DEPARTMENT  PENALTIES FOR POOR WORK   SECOND CLASS MAIL DELIVERY

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	What are the postal regulations which provide for a salary reduction for employees for mistakes or poor work, and (a) when were these passed (b) how much are these pay reductions (c) has the department considered suspension rather than pay reductions?
2.	Is second class mail, such as magazines, delivered on special days even if letter carriers are required to work overtime to make such deliveries and, if so (a) under what regulation is this done (b) what officials of the Post Office Department have the authority to give such orders (c) are postal employees paid overtime for such extra work?


Mr. Nicholson:: 1. The penalties which the Post Office Department imposes on employees for repeated mistakes or habitual poor work are authorized by the Civil Service Act. This act gives all deputies the authority to recommend to the civil service commission penalties, when necessary, in the form of withholding statutory salary increases, salary reduction, demotion in class, suspension, dismissal. (a) The present Civil Service Act came into force on April 1, 1962. (b) The amount of the pay reductions varies according to the circumstances, from a reduction in salary of $5 for one month to $10 per month for six months, and in a few cases more severe penalties in the form of a reduction to a lower step in the established range for the particular class, (c) Yes. Several years ago the most common type of penalty was suspension. This was reviewed with the department's staff associations and the present

system of temporary pay reduction was adopted in preference to the previous practice.
2. (a) Mail is handled in accordance with the service requirements established for each class of mail. Magazine companies publishing dated material try to schedule their delivery to the post office in order that the publications will be available for delivery on a certain day each week or month, as the case may be. Notwithstanding the foregoing, second class mail does not take precedence over first class mail, nor is it customary for letter carriers to work overtime on any day, to make deliveries of second class mail.
Letter carriers work a five day, 40 hour week and their routes are so constituted as to enable delivery, on the average, within the eight hour workday prescribed by the department. Each route is verified by means of a periodic check and if found to require adjustment to bring it within the prescribed work week, such adjustment is made. In addition, if any letter carrier feels that his route is too heavy or has increased in volume, he has the right to apply for an additional work check and if his claim is substantiated, he is given an overtime award until such time as an adjustment can be made, (b) Only senior officers at headquarters can authorize overtime for letter carriers, apart from that mentioned in 2 (a), (c) Letter carriers are not paid overtime for occasional days, unless it has been specifically authorized by the senior officers referred to in 2 (b). It is realized that on occasional days a letter carrier may work beyond the usual time to complete his work, but this is generally more than made up on those days when the volume of mail is less and the letter carrier completes his work early.



BURROWS-KEEWATIN HOUSING PROJECT, WINNIPEG

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	What is the total cost of the Burrows-Kee-watin housing project in Winnipeg and of this amount how much is being provided by the (a) federal government (b) provincial government, and (c) city of Winnipeg?
2.	What was the cost of the brick fence built as part of the project?
3.	Is it the policy of C.M.H.C. that no (a) storm doors (b) stoves or refrigerators be provided for such projects?
Answer: 1. The estimated total cost of the Burrows-Keewatin housing project in Winnipeg is $1,941,555. The cost sharing arrangements are: (a) federal government 75 per cent; (b) provincial government 12J per cent; (c) city of Winnipeg 12| per cent.
2. The estimated cost of the brick screening is $30,000. This screening is required in conjunction with the row housing back to back

units to compensate for the loss of privacy in the absence of rear yards.
3.	(a) No. The need for storm doors is considered on the basis of unit design and climatic conditions.
The Burrows-Keewatin project will be provided with storm doors.
(b) No. However, it is general practice to provide only apartment units with stoves and refrigerators.



INDIAN STUDENTS

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many Indian children attend schools, elementary and secondary, and how many of these attend (a) purely Indian schools (b) integrated schools?
2.	How does the percentage of Indian students attending schools, elementary and secondary, compare with the percentage of the whole population attending elementary and secondary schools?


Mr. Badanai:: 1. There are 50,549 Indian children attending elementary and secondary schools of which (a) 32,000 students are attending schools for Indians only and (b) there are 18,549 Indian students attending integrated schools.
2. Percentage of Indian students, 23.7 per cent; percentage of students to entire population, 23.2 per cent; (based on survey conducted in 1959-60 by dominion bureau of statistics).



TELEVISION FILM OF MILITARY INSPECTIONS

Mr. MacEwan: Who supplied the film showing the minister of defence inspecting the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force included in the C.B.C. free time political broadcast shown on CFCY-TV on February 12, 1964?
2.	What was the cost of these films?
3.	Who paid or was charged for same?
Answer: 1. Canadian armed forces.
2.	No direct cost since the film used was taken from stock footage previously released to T.V. outlets for news purposes.
3.	This type of footage is available without charge to any responsible agency on request.



SCIENTIFIC POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS, GLASSCO COMMISSION

Mr. Orlikow: Has the government reached any decision on the recommendations of the Glassco commission dealing with national scientific policy as outlined in volume 4, page 224, where it is proposed that:
(1)	a cabinet minister be made responsible for the scientific policy of the country and the co-ordination of existing activities in the field of research and development;
(2)	a central scientific bureau be established to act as a science secretariat to the cabinet under the officer to be known as the scientific secretary, reporting to the minister in charge of scientific policy;
(3)	a national scientific advisory council be established with the members being drawn from the
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scientific disciplines, the universities, industry and the community at large, to review and submit independent advice with respect to national scientific policy;
(4)	the scientific secretary act as secretary and the central scientific bureau serve as a secretariat for the national scientific advisory council?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: No. However, this matter is now under active consideration. The Prime Minister, in a letter to Dr. C. J. MacKenzie dated December 3, 1963, requested him to make a study and to submit recommendations as to how activities of the federal government relating to science and research might be made more effective. Dr. Mackenzie is a former president of the national research council, and of Atomic Energy of Canada, Ltd., and former chairman of the atomic energy control board.
In requesting Dr. Mackenzie to undertake this assignment, the Prime Minister referred specifically to the report of the royal commission on government organization with respect to scientific research and development, and to the recommendations contained therein.
Dr. Mackenzie has accepted the invitation and has already submitted under date of January 28, 1964, a progress report, the contents of which are now under consideration.



ACCIDENTS IN PORT OF MONTREAL

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many fatal accidents occurred in the past three years in the port of Montreal, to workers loading and unloading ships and handling merchandise in the port?
2.	How many other accidents occurred in the area?
3.	How many sheds on the piers are equipped with first aid boxes and stretchers?
4.	How many sheds on the piers are not equipped with first aid boxes and stretchers?
5.	Is the national harbours board considering the establishment of permanent ambulance service for the port of Montreal so that people injured while working could receive immediate transportation to hospitals or other medical services?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The national harbours
board advises as follows:
1.	1961, one; 1962, three; 1963, four.
2.	1961, N.H.B. employees, 83; other harbour workers, 226; traffic accidents, 27.
1962,	N.H.B. employees, 47; other harbour workers, 201; traffic accidents, 17.
1963,	N.H.B. employees, 61; other harbour workers, 422; traffic accidents, 19.
3.	Five sheds with stretchers and 22 with first aid kits.
4.	Thirty two sheds without stretchers and 15 without first aid kits.
5.	The adequate provision of ambulance service in Montreal harbour is now under review by the board.

Questions



INCOME TAX EXEMPTIONS FOR DONATIONS

Mr. Coales: 1.	What were the exemptions claimed and granted for "donations" from personal income tax in the years 1960, 1961, and 1962, in each province?
2.	What was the estimated tax secured through personal income tax in the years 1960, 1961, and 1962, in each province?


Mr. Garland:: 1. 1960, not available; 1961, published in 1963 taxation statistics, table 4, item 22, page 48, in respect of taxable returns. Donations allowed on non-taxable returns not available by provinces; 1962, not available.
2. 1960, published in 1962 taxation statistics, table 1, page 31; 1961, published in 1963 taxation statistics, table 1, page 31; 1962, not available.



IMMIGRATION APPLICATIONS BY ALGERIAN FARMERS

Mr. Coates: 1.	How many applications have been received from former Algerian farmers who wish to immigrate to Canada?
2.	What assistance will be made available through the government to those Algerian farmers who decide to immigrate to Canada?


Hubert Badanai: 1. To date applications involving 738 Algerian repatriates in France have been received by the Canadian immigration office in Paris. As is the case at all immigration offices overseas, no tabulation is maintained of occupational categories at the time of initial application. Statistics in this respect are not compiled until the migrant is actually admitted to Canada.
2. Any of these people who do migrate to Canada will be entitled to exactly the same type of assistance from the immigration branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration as any other immigrant to this country. Where needed, new arrivals may obtain help in locating accommodation and employment, counselling as to working and living conditions and other related assistance in becoming settled. In addition, any of these people who are interested in establishing themselves on farms of their own will, if necessary, receive counselling and guidance not only from this department but from the responsible provincial authorities on the availability and location of Canadian farms. The appropriate federal and provincial authorities will also be able to advise prospective farm purchasers as to the availability of farm financing.



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY

Mr. Coates: 1.	What is the total mileage of highway that qualifies for assistance under the Trans-Canada Highway Act?
2.	What is the estimated mileage still to be completed in each province?

3. How many miles of trans-Canada four lane highway? Mr. Deschatelets: 1. 4,720 miles.	highway is
2. Newfoundland	294
Prince Edward Island	-
Nova Scotia	196
New Brunswick	161
Quebec	377
Ontario	408
Manitoba	-
Saskatchewan	-
Alberta	1
British Columbia	19
Total	1,456
These figures include the mileage of high-	
way paved prior to 1949 on which no reconstruction has been undertaken under the trans-Canada highway agreement to date.
3. The federal government participates only in the construction of the two lane highway provided for in the trans-Canada highway agreement. The construction of additional lanes is a provincial responsibility. Records indicate that approximately 155 miles of four lane construction has been completed to date with an additional 235 miles under construction.



T.C.A. STEWARDESSES

Mr. Coates: How many stewardesses were employed by T.C.A. In 1963, and in which provinces did they formerly reside?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The management of Trans-Canada Air Lines advise as follows: Nineteen stewardesses graduated from training class in 1963 and were employed by T.C.A. The province of residence at time of acceptance for training was: Quebec, 13; Ontario, 3; Manitoba, 1; Saskatchewan, 1; British Columbia 1.



FRENCH SPEAKING POPULATION OF TORONTO

Mr. Coates: 1.	What is the estimated number of persons residing in metropolitan Toronto who speak only French, and what percentage of the population do they represent?
2.	What is the estimated number of persons residing in metropolitan Toronto who speak neither French nor English, and what percentage of the population do they represent?
3.	What is the estimated number of persons residing in metropolitan Toronto who give French as a second language, and what percentage of the population do they represent?
Answer: 1. Of the two languages English and French, the 1961 census of Canada shows 3,084 persons reported as being able to speak French only in the metropolitan area of Toronto as delineated for census purposes. This represents 0.17 per cent of the population

of the metropolitan area. Such persons may, of course, speak other languages such as Italian, German, Ukrainian, etc.
2.	Of the two languages English and French, the 1961 census of Canada shows 52,472 persons reported as being able to speak neither English nor French in the metropolitan area of Toronto as delineated for census purposes. This represents 2.88 per cent of the population of the metropolitan area.
3.	No figures are available on the number of persons who give French as a second language (that is, Italian and French, German and French, or other combinations). However, of the two languages English and French, the 1961 census of Canada shows 78,303 persons reported as being able to speak both English and French in the metropolitan area of Toronto as delineated for census purposes. This represents 4.29 per cent of the population of the metropolitan area.



SALE OF TOURIST CABINS, SPRINGHILL, N.S.

Mr. Coates: 1.	Did Crown Assets Disposal Corporation sell the tourist cabins located on the site of the medium security penal institution located at Springhill, Nova Scotia?
2.	Who was the successful bidder for these cabins and what was the amount realized from the sale?
3.	Were alternative bids received and, if so, from whom, and for what amounts?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. Yes.
2.	Mr. Aimer Hollis, Springhill, N.S., $50.
3.	Notices of sale were posted in post offices and circulars were sent to 24 prospective purchasers known to be interested. Only one offer was received.



POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, N.S.

Mr. Coates: 1.	Have sites been secured for all or any of the post offices which will be constructed at Westchester, Collingwood, Southampton, Joggins, Wallace and Advocate Harbour?
2.	If properties have been secured for all or any of the sites, what was the amount paid for each and were alternative bids secured in all or any of the cases?
3.	When will construction commence on all or any of these post offices and what Is the expected completion date for those which have already seen tender calls?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. Sites have been expropriated with the consent of the owners for the new post offices at Westchester and Jog-gins. Sites have not yet been secured at Collingwood, Southampton, Wallace or Advocate Harbour.
2. For the site at Westchester, compensation in the amount of $400 is to be paid. For the site at Joggins, compensation in the amount of $1,065 is to be paid. Since expropriation was involved in both cases, alternative bids were not received.
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3. Contracts for Westchester and Joggins were awarded on February 18, 1964, and construction will commence almost immediately. Anticipated completion date for both projects is April, 1964. Site investigation is continuing at Collingwood, Southampton, Wallace and Advocate Harbour and consideration will be given to construction at these locations in a future program.



*NATIONAL FLAG


Mr. Coates: 1.	Since April 8, 1963, how many letters and petitions have been received by the government urging the retention of the red ensign as Canada's national flag?
2.	What were the total number of signatures affixed to these letters and petitions?


Mr. Stewart:: 1. 126 letters; 4,296 petitions.
2. 164 signatures affixed to letters; 93,148 signatures affixed to petitions.



*BAY OF FUNDY POWER STUDY

Mr. Coates: 1.	Has a firm, or group of firms, been retained by the Atlantic development board to carry out a comprehensive study of the power potential of the bay of Fundy tides and the cost of harnessing these tides?
2.	What is the estimated period of time required to complete the study?
3.	What is the estimated cost of the investigation?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am informed by the
Atlantic development board as follows:
1.	The Atlantic development board has retained the firm of Foundation of Canada Engineering Corporation Limited, Montreal, to carry out an investigation of foundation conditions in the Cumberland basin-Shepody bay area, upper bay of Fundy, in connection with possible tidal power developments.
2.	It is expected that the final report will be made to the board by May 31, 1964.
3.	The estimated cost of this study is



INDIAN SOCIAL CENTRES

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 62
Mr. Webster:: 1.	How many Indian social centres in Canada are recognized by the Indian affairs branch?
2.	Where are they located?
3.	Do they all have full time directors?
4.	How much does the federal government contribute to their respective budgets?


Hubert Badanai: 1. There are 11 Indian friendship or social centres in Canada which the federal government assists financially.
2. Their location i;
Town or city Toronto Kenora Winnipeg The Pas Regina
Prince Albert North Battleford Edmonton Vancouver Prince Rupert Whitehorse
as follows:
Province or territory Ontario Ontario Manitoba Manitoba Saskatchewan Saskatchewan Saskatchewan Alberta
British Columbia British Columbia Yukon
3.	Yes.
4.	Grants vary according to local needs. Current level of grant ranges between $1,700 and $5,000.



R.C.A.F. EXHIBITIONS

Mr. Winch: 1.	Has the Department of National Defence concluded its review of the R.C.A.F.'s exhibition policy and, if so, what are (a) the recommendations (b) policy decisions?
2.	On the latest 12 month financial breakdown what was the cost of (a) putting on air displays (b) fuel consumption (c) ground crew to keep aircraft operational (d) maintenance costs (e) estimated cost per hour flying time (i) man operational (il) aircraft?
3.	Has the investigation been completed into the crash of the "Red Knight" at Gimli, Manitoba, and, if so, what were the findings?
Answer: 1. The Minister of National Defence has ordered an over-all review of the exhibition policy relating to all three services. Apart from the decision to disband the Golden Hawks which has already been announced by the minister, no additional decisions have been made pending completion of the review.
2.	In the past, costs of R.C.A.F. exhibitions have been absorbed in the over-all operational and maintenance votes and detailed breakdowns as requested are not available. As part of the review ordered by the minister, proposals for future exhibitions are to include estimated costs related directly to the exhibitions.
3.	Yes, the board of inquiry found that the accident was caused by an error in judgment on the part of the pilot.



TORONTO AIRPORT


Mr. Webb: 1.	What are the names of the firms and the amount of their tenders for the cleaning contract at the new Toronto international airport?
2.	Which firm received the contract?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. The names of the firms
and the amount of their tender for the cleaning contract at the new Toronto international airport are:
Harry S. Denning Cleaning Services Ltd., Toronto.
Empire Maintenance Ltd., Montreal, P.Q.
Allied Building Services (1962) Ltd., Montreal
Scott Young Ltd., Toronto, Ontario.
Taymac Building Services Ltd., Scarboro, Ontario.
Modern Building Cleaning Service of Canada, Ottawa, Ont.
Catalytic Construction of Canada Ltd., Sarnia, Ont.
Consolidated Building Maintenance Limited, Montreal.
Gordon A. MacEachem Limited, Toronto.
American Building Mtce. Co. of Canada, Toronto.
Eber J. Hall Co. Ltd., Toronto.
S.	B. Crockett Mtce., Cooksville, Ontario.

Monthly	Two Year
$12,900.00	$309,600.00
$13,890.00	$333,360.00
$15,250.00	$366,000.00
$18,488.00	$443,728.80
$18,883.75	$453,210.00
$20,950.00	$502,800.00
$22,916.65	$550,000.00
$23,958.62	$575,006.88
$24,839.84	$596,156.00
$27,240.00	$653,760.00
$28,500.00	$684,000.00
$ 4,358.32	$1,050,000.00

2. Allied Building Services (1962) Ltd., Montreal, was awarded the contract, the two lower bids having been found unsatisfactory.



CANADIAN MILITARY ATTACHES ABROAD

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many of the navy, army and air force military attaches serving in Canadian embassies abroad are included in the diplomatic corps?
2.	What are (a) the salaries (b) the ranks (c) the seniority of such military attaches?
3.	What are, in precise terms, their duties?
4.	What were, on the average, allowances paid to such military attaches for entertainment and social expenses, over and above their salaries?
5.	What is the breakdown of such allowances and on what grounds are they paid?
Answer: 1. All service attaches are accredited members of the diplomatic corps of the respective countries.
2.	(a) The service pay, which includes pay in rank, marriage allowance and subsistence allowance is approximately $13,500 annually for the service attache and $9,000 annually for the assistant attache, (b) The ranks of the 21 Canadian service attaches are: 4 captains R.C.N.; 10 colonels army; 7 group captains R.C.A.F.; and 1 squadron leader R.C.A.F. as assistant air attache, (c) The service attache is accredited in the rank of foreign service officer 8 and is listed diplomatically immediately junior to the embassy first secretary.
3.	The duties of the service attaches are to keep national defence headquarters fully informed on the military situation in the country or countries to which they are accredited, and to advise the head of mission on all naval, military and air matters.
4.	The allowance for entertainment and social obligations is provided in accordance with foreign service allowances. This consists of an indirect representational allowance of
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$1,890 annually for each attache together with a direct representational allowance based on the cost of living at the individual post varying from $1,250 to $2,225 annually.
5.	The direct allowance which is a fixed sum, based on the cost of living at individual post, is strictly accountable and based on a set price for a specific number of guests for dinners or receptions. The indirect allowance is paid to defray all other costs in connection with official hospitality and social obligations as an increment to standard living.



MILITARY INSTALLATIONS, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many military installations if any, have been established in the constituency of Compton-Frontenae?
2.	Where are these establishments located and what was the total cost of their operation and other expenses during the two last fiscal years?
3.	Who is responsible for these various installations?
Answer: 1. Two armouries.
2.	Bury, $13,000; Megantic, $17,000.
3.	The Department of National Defence.



NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED, YUKON TERRITORY

Mr. Nielsen: 1.	What is the number of persons, by sex, listed as unemployed and registered for employment in the Yukon Territory for each month during the years 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, and for the month of January 1964?
2.	How many were Indian people and how many were white people in each case?


Mr. MacEachen:: The number of persons registered for employment at the national employment office at Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, at the end of each month is as follows:
Males
1957	1958	1959	1960	1961	1962	1963January	294	496	561	487	715	516	542February	295	511	562	492	644	503	524March	281	529	549	490	642	520	508April	297	500	557	412	725	450	509May	296	352	361	215	448	240	279June	162	329	336	190	330	227	193July	87	108	174	154	238	156	192August	85	75	104	176	198	91	82September	121	133	74	179	185	118	105October	253	263	224	320	293	184	187November	369	378	442	428	440	370	330December	486	506	531	534	461	522	408
520
Questions

Females
1957	1958	1959	1960	1961	1962	1963January	85	131	152	141	132	147	159February	85	121	151	147	128	162	160March	83	148	145	155	136	160	126April	77	171	153	124	156	132	155May	64	129	137	110	120	93	105June	65	140	92	100	100	99	103July	62	85	73	128	102	104	91August	62	89	90	127	94	114	73September	52	95	95	131	109	104	102October	60	124	113	118	122	113	72November	77	123	122	119	112	160	107December	88	123	129	97	111	135	1072.	This information is not available.



HAINES HIGHWAY, YUKON  CANADIAN MAINTENANCE EMPLOYEES

Mr. Nielsen: Under the provisions of the agreement between the government of Canada and/or the government of the Yukon Territory and the government of the United States and/or the government of the state of Alaska whereby the Canadian section of the road from Haines Junction in Yukon to Haines in Alaska is being maintained by the government of Alaska the cost of which is being paid by the Canadian government or the government of the Yukon Territory (a) how many Canadian citizens or residents are employed on the maintenance projects as (i) truck drivers (ii) heavy duty operators (iii) grader operators (iv) snow plowing equipment operators (v) labourers (vi) other (b) what are the wage rates being paid to these employees (c) how many citizens or residents of the United States or Alaska are employed on the maintenance project in the categories of employment listed in
(a)	above (d) what are the wage rates being paid to the employees listed in (c) above in each of the listed categories of employment?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: (a) No Canadian citizens or residents employed.
(b)	Not applicable.
(c)	Eleven. All operators are capable of handling all equipment and therefore not classified as in (a) above.
Operators, 5; labourer, 1; mechanics, 2; foreman, 1; cook, 1; cook's helper, 1.
(d)	4 operators, $3.88 per hour; 1 operator, $3.63 per hour; 1 mechanic, $3.88 per hour; 1 mechanic, $3.63 per hour; 1 foreman, $4.74 per hour; 1 labourer, $2.98 per hour; 1 cook $3.38 per hour; 1 cook's helper, $3.17 per hour.



C.M.H.C. LOANS FOR STUDENT RESIDENCES

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What loans, if any, were made by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to assist in the construction of student residences during the last five years?
2.	To what colleges and universities were such loans made, and what was the amount of each?
3.	What is the rate of interest and the amount reimbursable in each case?
Answer: 1, 2 and 3.
NHA LOANS FOR UNIVERSITY HOUSING PROJECTS Loans Approvals by Order in Council December 2, 1960 to January 31, 1964*
Amount of Rate of
University	City	NHA Loan Interest**.	Total $'000	%
Nova Scotia-
St. Francis Xavier	
U. of King's College....
Acadia U	
Mount St. Bernard College
Dalhousie University....
College Sainte Anne	
Dalhousie U	
New Brunswick-
U. of New Brunswick	
. Antigonish	.... 1,436	51. Halifax	.... 700	5|. Wolfville	.... 503	5!. Antigonish	... . 561	51. Halifax	.... 847	51. Church Pointe	.. . . 250	51. Halifax	.... 1,232	51. Fredericton	. ... 1,800	5!
[Mr. MacEachen.l

Questions
NHA LOANS FOR UNIVERSITY HOUSING PROJECTS Loans Approvals by Order in Council December 2, 1960 to January 31, 1964*
		Amount of	Rate of
University	City	NHA Loan	Interest**
		Total J'000	%
Quebec-
U. of Sherbrooke	
Laval	
Academie de Quebec	
Seminaire St. Pie X	
Seminaire de Nicolet	
College de Matane	
College de Victoriaville...
McGill U	
Loyola College	
College de Rouyn	
College Bourget	
Ecole N. M. de Lajemmerais.
Scolasticat Saint-Charles..
Rabbinical College	
Ecole N. Francois-de-la-Place
U. of Montreal	
Sem. Marie-Reine du Clerge.. Scolasticat-Ecole Nor male St-Viateur.
College Notre-Dame	
College Marguerite d'Youville	
Grand Seminaire de Montreal	
College Sophie Barat	
Ecole Nor male de S.C	
McGill U	
Seminaire St. Joseph	
College du Bon Pasteur	
Bishop's U	
College Jean de Brebeuf	
Seminaire Montford	
Seminaire de Chicoutimi	
College de Jonquiere	
College de Matane	
Institut de l'Assomption d'Amos....
College St-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere....
Scolasticat Central de Montreal....
Ontario-
Assumption U	
Waterloo Lutheran U	
Carleton U	
U. of St. Jerome's College	
Renison College	
Waterloo Lutheran U	
St. Paul's United College	
Waterloo Lutheran U	
Assumption U	
Huron College	
Ner Yeshivah	
Queens University	
Huntington U	
Conrad Grebel College	
Renison College	
U. of Ottawa	
U. of Sudbury	
Manitoba-
Brandon College	
United College	
Brandon College	
U. of Manitoba	
St. Andrew's College	
Saskatchewan-
Emmanuel College	
Notre Dame College	
University of Saskatchewan	
Sherbrooke	
1,750	51Quebec	
3,255	51Ste. Foy	
1,210	5*Hauterive	
222	51Nicolet	
529	5|Matane	
631	51Victoriaville	
1,040	51Montreal	
800	5-1Montreal	
1,890	51Rouyn	
698	51ltigaud	
148	51Montreal	
688	51Joliette	
195	51Montreal	
465	51Quebec	
351	51Montreal	
394	51Chicoutimi	
385	51Rigaud	
1,000	51Montreal	
622	51Hull	
482	51Montreal	
616	51Montreal	
587	51Sherbrooke	
1,335	51Montreal	
1,225	51Mont Laurier	
400	51Chicoutimi	
603	51Lennoxville	
450	51Montreal	
680	51Papineauville	
405	51Chicoutimi	
963	51Jonquiere	
792	51Matane	
200	51Amos	
610	51Pocatiere	
950	51Montreal	
3,200	51Windsor	
1,413	51Waterloo	
423	5!Ottawa	
1,512	5|Waterloo	
300	51Waterloo	
310	51Waterloo	
688	51Waterloo	
625	51Waterloo	
829	51Windsor	
1,400	51London	
411	51Toronto	
343	51Kingston	
165	51Sudbury	
1,126	51Waterloo	
400	51Waterloo	
392	51Ottawa	
800	51Sudbury	
882	51Brandon	
906	51Winnipeg	
693	5fBrandon	
588	51Winnipeg	
3,072	51Winnipeg	
500	51.. Saskatoon	
409	51.. Wilcox	
214	5!.. Saskatoon	
2,357	51
Questions
NHA LOANS FOR UNIVERSITY HOUSING PROJECTS Loans Approvals by Order in Council December 2, 1960 to January 31, 1964*
Amount of	Rate of
University	City	NHA Loan Interest**
Total $'000	%
Alberta-
U. of Alberta	
U. of Alberta	
Camrose Lutheran College	
British Columbia-
U.B.C	
Anglican Theological College..
U.B.C	
University of Victoria	
Notre Dame University of Nelson

. Edmonton	
4,976	51. Calgary	
3,500	51. Camrose	
345	51. Vancouver	
1,322	51. Vancouver	
371	51. Vancouver	
4,365	51. Victoria	
600	51. Nelson	
845	51
74,182
*The National Housing Act was amended to provide for loans for university housing projects on December 2,
1960.
**The rate of interest on loans for university housing is set by the governor in council based on the interest rate on long term government bonds and may be changed from time to time in accordance with changes in those interest rates.
The full amount of the loan is reimbursable in each case.



COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH SOUTHEAST ASIA COUNTRIES

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What commercial relations exist between Canada and the following countries: Indonesia, Malaysia, Sumatra, Borneo, and the Philippines?
2.	Did Canada conclude commercial agreements with any of those countries during the last year?
Answer: 1. In 1963 Canada's exports to Indonesia (which includes Sumatra, and Borneo) amounted to $.5 million. The most significant export items were wheat flour and automobiles. Imports from Indonesia for 11 months 1963 totalled $.1 million, mainly spices and tea. Canada's trade relations with Indonesia have been governed by the GATT since March 1, 1948 which provides for the exchange of most favoured nation treatment. Canadian exports to the Philippines totalled $21.3 million in 1963. The major export item was wheat, followed by newsprint and wood-pulp. Imports for the first 11 months of last year amounted to $1.8 million. Canada grants
the Philippines most favoured nation treatment on a reciprocal basis. Malaysia formed a market for $6.7 million worth of Canadian exports in 1963, representing a wide variety of items, among which flour and automobiles were the largest. For the first 11 months of 1963 imports from Malaysia amounted to $27.4 million, almost solely in rubber and tin. Canada exchanges preferential tariff treatment with Malaysia under the Canada-U.K. Trade Agreement of 1937. In addition Malaya is a contracting party to the GATT.
2.	Canada did not conclude commercial agreements with any of the above countries during the last year.



CANADIAN EXPORTS AND IMPORTS

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What was the nature and value of exports to Cuba during the years 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963?
2.	What was the nature and value of imports from Cuba during the years 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963?
Answer: 1 and 2. See statement attached.
[Mr. Latulippe.l

Questions
1.	The nature and value of the exports to Cuba during the years 1960-1963 was as follows:-
1960	1961	1962	1963Domestic Exports	-	-	-	-Live animals	
164,475	4,206,877	1,736,343	579,834Food, feed, beverages and tobacco	
6,357,652	4,835,188	2,764,892	8,919,359Crude materials, inedible	
305,988	199,771	27,306	4,390Fabricated materials, inedible	
4,723,986	16,146,200	4,188,580	4,657,916End products, inedible	
1,478,223	5,711,002	2,156,228	2,253,967Special transactions-Trade	
7,544	5,094	4,299	17,206Total Domestic Exports	
$ 13,037,868	8 31,104,132	$ 10,877,648	8 16,432,672Re-Exports	
426,171	1,226,763	611,412	212,971Total Exports	
$ 13,464,039	8 32,330,895	8 11,489,060	8 16,645,6432.	The nature and value of imports from Cuba during the years 1960-1962 and January-November 1963 (latest figures available) was as follows:-
Agricultural and vegetable products (except chemicals,
fibres and wood)	
Animals and animal products (except chemical and
fibres)	
Fibres, textiles and textile products	
Wood, wood products and paper	
Iron and its products	
Non-ferrous metals and their products	
Non-metallic minerals and their products (except
chemicals)	
Chemicals and allied products	
Miscellaneous commodities	
Total Imports
1960	1961	1962	January- November 19636,224,385	4,456,841	2,375,887	11,775,97591,714	54,358	93,230	146,457672,531	369,316	200,906	400,72559	1,600	-	-175,390	78,087	150	1,07519,751	-	87,275	-20,052	11,054499	10,000	-	2,25158,763	64,011	25,612	22,451',243,092	8 5,034,213 8	2,803,112	8 12,359,988



INCREASES AND DECREASES IN BREAD PRICES

Mr. Latulippe: 1.	For each month of the fiscal year 1962-63, what increases and decreases in the price of bread were recorded (a) in Canada (b) in Quebec?
2.	For each month of the fiscal year 1962-63, what increases and decreases in the price of flour, sugar and milk powder as well as fats entering into the manufacture of bread were recorded (a) in Canada
(b)	in Quebec?

Answer: 1. (a) and (b)
Indexes of the Retail Price of Bread Canada and Montreal Monthly, April 1962-March 1963 April 1962 = 100
	Canada	Montreal
April	100.0	100.0May	100.0	100.0June	100.0	100.0July	100.0	98.7August	100.0	98.7September	100.0	100.0October	100.0	100.0November	100.6	100.0December	102.4	100.0January	104.3	100.0February	104.3	100.0March	104.3	100.0
2 (a).

Questions
Indexes of Prices of Materials Used in the Bread and Other Bakery Products Industry Monthly, April 1962 to March 1963
April 1962 = 100



SELECTED MATERIALS

[Stage Direction]
Month	A1F Materials	Hard Wheat (Bread Flour)
1962		
April	.. 100.0	100.0May	.. 100.0	100.2June	.. 101.2	102.2July	.. 101.5	102.2August	. . 101.4	101.6September-	.. 101.5	101.6October	.. 101.7	101.5November	.. 102.4	101.7December....	. . 102.1	100.51963	January	.. 103.3	100.3February	.. 104.4	100.3March	. . 104.2	98.7Sugar Cane & Beet	Milk Powdered	Lard100.0	100.0	100.0100.8	102.0	98.2100.7	107.2	102.3102.7	107.2	107.1104.0	107.2	110.6104.0	108.3	113.6104.0	107.2	116.0110.2	107.2	117.8119.1	109.4	110.6138.8	110.5	107.7149.2	110.5	111.8154.0	110.5	110.6Shortening	Yeast	Eggs, Frozen100.0	100.0	100.0100.0	100.0	94.7100.2	100.0	89.0100.2	100.0	87.8100.3	100.0	90.9100.3	100.0	90.0100.3	100.0	94.4100.3	100.0	98.4100.4	100.0	97.1103.6	100.0	94.5103.6	100.0	97.7103.2	100.0	110.9
1 Includes waxed bread wrappers, packing materials, bread cartons and cake boxes.
2 (b). Data for Quebec province are not available separately.

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	During 1962-63, with what countries did Canada
engage in trade of soya bean oil?
2.	What were the quantities purchased and at what price?
3.	What are the principal markets in Canada for this product?
4.	What action is the government contemplating in connection with the possible marketing by the United States of surplus stocks of soya bean oil?
Answers: 1 and 2. Exports and imports of soya bean oil, by countries, during 1962-63 were as follows:- Exports
Soya bean oil (class 393-60)
Country
United Kingdom	
Spain	
Peru	
United States	
Totals	
1962	1963
Cwt.	$	Cwt.	$449,608	4,640,615	453,718	4,969,16156,049	616,537	-	--	-	8	121596	2,558	-	-506,253	$5,259,710	453,726	$4,969,282
Imports
Soya bean oil, crude and refined (class 1619)	January-November 1963
1962	(latest figures available)
Country	Cwt.	$	Average Cwt.	$	Average
Price	Price
United States	 193,017 $2,251,312	$1.17	276,664 $3,221,748	$1.16
3.	Chief markets in Canada for soya bean oil are margarine, shortening, cooking oil and paint industries.
4.	Canada has not encountered any problems with respect to our commercial exports of soya bean oil as a result of American marketing of surplus stocks. We are of course aware the Americans do hold certain stocks

which they may dispose of under their legislation. We are not aware that any major disposals are contemplated at this time. In any event the United States are committed under trade agreements with us to consult with a view to avoiding danger to Canadian commercial interests. Appropriate machinery exists for such consultations.



CANADIAN RELATIONS WITH PANAMA

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	How many Canadians live in the Panama canal zone?
2.	How many of them are employed by the Canadian government?
3.	Does the Canadian government maintain diplomatic and commercial relations with the Panamanian government?
4.	What were our exports to and imports from Panama during the past year?
5.	Does Canada have any part, in any way, in the administration or financing of the Panama canal?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. About 40 Canadians
have registered as residents of the Panama canal zone.
2.	None.
3.	Yes.
4.	In 1963, exports to Panama totalled $4,796,767. Imports from Panama amounted to $9,895,545 between January and November 1963, according to the latest statistics.
5.	No.



CANADIAN RELATIONS WITH CYPRUS

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	Does Canada maintain a permanent diplomatic mission in Cyprus?
2.	How many Canadians are living in Cyprus?
3.	What safety measures have been taken on their behalf in the crisis which that country is presently going through?
*4AWJat commercial relations did Canada have with Cyprus over the past year in terms of imports and exports?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. Canada does not
maintain a permanent diplomatic mission in Cyprus. Our ambassador to Israel, who lives in Tel Aviv, is also accredited as high commissioner to Cyprus.
2.	27 Canadians, including dependents, have informed our high commissioner of their presence in Cyprus.
3.	Canadians living in Cyprus are included in the plans drawn up by the British government for the protection and evacuation of British citizens from Cyprus in case of emergency.
4.	In 1963, exports to Cyprus totalled $512,902. From January to November 1963, imports from Cyprus amounted to $83,303 (latest figures available).
As partners in GATT, Canada and Cyprus have agreed to grant each other the most favoured nation tariff. In addition, each one grants the other the advantages of the British preference according to the provisions of the 1937 trade agreement between Canada and the United Kingdom.
Questions



DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH SOUTHEAST ASIA COUNTRIES

Mr. Lalulippe: Does Canada maintain diplomatic relations with Indonesia, Malaysia, Sumatra, Borneo and the Philippines and, if so, to what extent? [Translation]


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Canada maintains diplomatic relations with Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. Malaysia, where our country has a high commissioner, is a federation which includes the peninsula of Malaya, Singapore and two territories situated in the northern part of Borneo island, namely Sarawak and Sabah (north Borneo). The southern part of Borneo island and the island of Sumatra are part of the republic of Indonesia where Canada has an embassy. We have a general consul and a trade commissioner in the Philippines.



PRODUCTION AND EXPORTS

Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	What was the total, by volume and value, of the exports of Canadian apples during the last
year?
2.	To what countries does Canada export apples?
3.	During the last year, what was the share of each province in those exports?
4.	What was the total production of apples during the last year?
5.	Was there an increase or a decrease in apple production over the preceding year?
6.	Was there an increase or a decrease in apple exports over the last two years?


Mr. Pepin:: 1 and 2. Exports of Canadian apples, by countries during 1963-see statement attached.
3.	There are no statistics on the province or provinces in which exported apples were produced.
4.	Total production of apples in Canada in 1963 was 21,937,000 bushels.
5.	There was an increase of 9 per cent in apple production in 1963 over the preceding year. The 1963 crop was an all-time record. Production in 1962 reached 20,049,000 bushels.
6.	Exports of apples increased in each of the last two years.

1 and 2. Exports of Canadian apples, by countries, during 1963 were as follows:
Country
United Kingdom
Ireland
Finland
Iceland
Netherlands
Norway
Sweden
Rhodesia & Nyasaland Republic of South Africa Hong Kong Malaya & Singapore
Lbs.	$
50,239,173	4,162,934
681,906	57,997
1,054,671	77,719
95,100	6,225
33,600	3,120
3,556,201	255,342
2,910,689	214,301
70,500	9,750
266,340	28,995
230,454	22,108
911,671	73,824

Questions
Country	Lbs.	$Philippines	205,350	8,675Fiji	102,821	6,995British Oceania n.e.s.	6,342	558French Oceania	68,100	6,107British Guiana	537,087	62,648Bolivia	66,639	8,574Ecuador	170,184	16,953Peru	175,951	17,696Surinam	23,475	2,994Venezuela	37,600	3,920Bahamas	182,385	16,983Bermuda	224,097	22,062British Honduras	1,200	120Barbados	691,425	74,588Jamaica	640,012	63,035Trinidad & Tobago	2,434,827	214,747Leeward & Windward	Is. 34,340	4,326Dominican Republic	399,250	39,292Netherlands Antilles	268,282	27,192Panama	339,407	26,363Puerto Rico	64,610	4,990St. Pierre & Miquelon	90,758	8,219United States	78,975,075	6,423,029Totals	145,789,522 $11,972,381



REPRESENTATIONS TO RUSSIA RESPECTING JEWS

Mr. Laiulippe: Has the government made any representations to the government erf the U.S.S.R. regarding the plight of Jews in that country and, if so, what was the nature of such representations?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Secretary of State for External Affairs contacted personally the Soviet ambassador in Canada to express the deep sympathy Canada has always felt towards human rights for all peoples, including the Jewish people in U.S.S.R. Furthermore, the Department of External Affairs relayed to the Soviet embassy in Ottawa the press release containing the draft of the speech made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, on January 1964, at the Pan-Canadian Rabbi convention. In that speech, the secretary of state emphasized the attitude taken by the Canadian people and the government of Canada concerning the plight of the Jews in the Soviet union.



WORLD EXHIBITION CORPORATION STAFF

Mr. Laiulippe: What is at present the total staff of the Canadian World Exhibition Corporation, 1967?

Answer: On February 19, 1964, the number of Canadian World Exhibition Corporation, 1967 employees on the payroll was 241. This number breaks down into departments as follows:

Secretariat	19
Finance and Administration	72
Development	82
Exhibitors	45
Operation	10
Executive	13



I.L.O. VOTE ON SOUTH AFRICA

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	Is Canada a member of the International Labour Organization and, if so, who are Canada's representatives on that organization?
2.	Did Canada vote in Geneva on interdicting the South African government and preventing it from taking part in the general conference of that organization and, if so, how did Canada vote and upon what grounds was the Canadian decision made?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. Yes. The Canadian
government representative on the governing body is Mr. George V. Haythorne, deputy minister of labour.
2. The governing body which met in Geneva earlier this month decided to place on the 48th session of the conference next June three items concerning South Africa:
(1)	Proposed declaration concerning the policy of apartheid of the Republic of South Africa together with a proposed I.L.O. program for the elimination of apartheid in labour matters, dealing with South African legislation and policies in respect of equality of opportunity in respect of admission to employment and training, freedom from forced labour, and freedom of association and the right to organize;
(2)	inclusion in the constitution of the International Labour Organization of a provision empowering the conference to expel or suspend from membership any member which has been expelled or suspended from membership of the United Nations; and
(3)	exclusion in the constitution of the International Labour Organization of a provision empowering the conference to suspend from participation in the international labour conference any member which has been found by the United Nations to be flagrantly and persistently pursuing by its legislation a declared policy of racial discrimination such as apartheid.
The proposals to place the first two items on the agenda of the conference were approved unanimously by the governing body. The proposal concerning the third item was approved by 32 votes in favour, 14 against and two abstentions. Canada was one of eight governments voting against this proposal.
Canada supported the proposed declaration and program for the elimination of apartheid

in labour matters as offering a constructive approach to the apartheid problem within the I.L.O.'s terms of reference.
Although the Canadian government is opposed to the idea of the expulsion of any member from the United Nations or from UN agencies at the present time, the Canadian representative supported the first of the two proposals for the amendment of the I.L.O. constitution because it recognized the principle that the question of expulsion of a member country from the I.L.O. or from any of the UN specialized agencies is primarily a political matter on which the agencies should not take action unless the United Nations had previously taken similar action. Canada opposed the second proposed constitutional amendment because this amendment does not recognize this principle and because of our belief that if South Africa were suspended from participation in the international labour conference it would be more difficult to implement the proposed I.L.O. program for the elimination of apartheid, which calls for the co-operation of the South African government.



PARTICIPATION IN COUNCIL FOR VOLUNTEERS OVERSEAS

Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	Was Canada invited to participate with England in the organization of the council for volunteers overseas through (a) a government body (b) students' unions, or (c) its participation in one or the other of the agencies of the United Nations organization?
2.	If Canada was invited what was the form and nature of the invitation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Canada has received no official communication regarding the work of the council for volunteers overseas. According to our information, such an organization seems to be responsible for political questions raised by various voluntary organizations which, in Great Britain, serve the underdeveloped countries.



WOMEN IN CANADIAN LABOUR FORCE

Mr. Latulippe: What was the decrease or increase In the number of women in the Canadian labour force during 1962-63?

Answer: Number of women in the Canadian labour force (on a 12 month average basis) in 1962 was 1,789,000 and in 1963,
1.858.000.	Increase from 1962 to 1963 was
69.000.



R.C.A.F. TRANSPORT FROM WEST GERMANY

Mr. Addison: 1.	What were the number and type of R.C.A.F. transport whose departure originated in West
Questions
Germany or which stopped there en route returning to Canada, between February 10, 1964 and February 17, 1964?
2.	What is the payload capacity of each of these aircraft and what percentage of this capacity was utilized in each case?
Answer: 1. Six, consisting of three passenger and three freight flights of Yukon aircraft participating in the Canadian army brigade group rotation.
2.	The passenger flights have a planned load of 123 passengers plus baggage. The three flights mentioned in (1) carried 95 per cent, 99 per cent and 99 per cent of the planned passenger carrying capacity. The freight flights have a planned payload of 35,000 pounds. The three flights mentioned in (1) carried 39,303 pounds, 42,450 pounds and 42,591 pounds.



*BUTTER IN WAREHOUSE FIRE

Mr. Ricard: Following the fire which destroyed the warehouses of the St. Denis cannery where butter was stored for the Department of Agriculture, were some stocks of butter from those warehouses sold and, if so (a) what method was used to establish the selling price (b) what was the selling price
(c)	what was the quantiy of butter sold (d) what are the names and addresses of the purchasers (e) how many pounds of butter were in the warehouses at the time of the fire (f) to what other warehouse was the balance of the unsold butter sent after the fire?


Mr. Beer:: Following the fire which destroyed the warehouses of the St. Denis creamery, some stocks of smoke, fire and water damaged butter were salvaged and later sold.
(a)	The agricultural stabilization board negotiated with the two major processing plants in the area capable of handling this type of product.
(b)	The selling price varied according to the quality of the damaged butter and averaged $17.05 per box.
(c)	The quantity of butter sold was 1,868 boxes. When originally stored these boxes each contained 56 pounds, but heat, breakage and contamination caused varying losses. The sale was negotiated on the basis of a flat price per box irrespective of weight.
(d)	Shefford Dairy Limited, Lawrenceville P.Q.
(e)	The agricultural stabilization board had 1,389,920 pounds of butter stored in the warehouse at the time of the fire.
(f)	During the salvage operation the damaged butter was taken to the Shefford Dairy Limited, Lawrenceville, P.Q., and the Granby Co-operative, Granby, P.Q.

Questions



* CANCELLATION OF RAILWAY LINE, MATANE-STE. ANNE DES MONTS

Mr. Ricard: Did the cabinet cancel the construction of a section of railway line between Matane and Ste Anne des Monts and, if so, for what reason?


Mr. Cantin:: Mr. Speaker, the government's decision in regard to this matter was described in the statement which was issued on January 21, and which I will table, in English and in French, at this time.



INFORMATION DIVISION, INDUSTRY AND DEFENCE PRODUCTION

Mr. Smith: 1.	Including artists, information officers and supervisory and clerical staff, how many positions have been authorized for the information division of the Department of Industry and Defence Production?
2.	How are these positions classified?
3.	At what salaries have they been advertised?
4.	when all authorized positions have been filled, what will be the annual total for salaries?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1. Five.
2.	and 3. One defence production officer 9, $13,300 to $14,200; one public information officer 6, $10,400 to $11,800; two public information officers 5, $3,310 to $9,750; one stenographer 3 secretary, $3,750 to $4,200.
4. The complete establishment of the information division has not yet been approved.



C.N. TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICE, NORTH SYDNEY, N.S.

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): Is it the intention of Canadian National telecommunications to curtail hours of service at North Sydney, Nova Scotia, commencing March 1, next and, if so, will consideration be given to retaining the hours of service in effect at the present time and explore the possibility of offering even a better service as this office provides a much needed service to the local as well as the large transient population travelling to and from Newfoundland?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I shall have to ask that this question stand, Mr. Speaker. Question stands.



RELATION OF P.K.U. TO MENTAL RETARDATION

Mr. Aiken: 1.	Is the government studying the condition known as P.K.U. (phenylketonuria) and its relation to mental retardation in children?
2.	Does the government intend to institute compulsory tests in newborn children to locate curable cases of mental retardation?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: 1. The Department
National Health and Welfare is not itself studying the condition known as P.K.U. (phenylketonuria) and its relation to mental retardation. However it encourages research 
in that field and since 1961 funds totalling approximately $100,000 have been provided under the national health grants to four provinces for assistance with seven research projects related to P.K.U. and other inborn errors of metabolism.
2. The federal government does not plan to institute compulsory tests in newborn children to locate preventable cases of mental retardation because such health matters come under provincial or local jurisdiction. However this testing is strongly encouraged. Some public health services are carrying out urine testing for this disorder in their well baby clinics and some maternity departments in hospitals have established a routine screening procedure. Private physicians are also participating in the case finding of P.K.U. among their patients.



* ATTENDANCE OF CANADIANS AT INNSBRUCK CONFERENCE

Mr. Woolliams: 1.	How many top ranking Canadian external affairs officials attended the Innsbruck conference?
2.	What positions do those said officials hold with the Department of External Affairs and had they had any special training in reference to European affairs, and in particular, special knowledge of the winter games and, if so, what special knowledge had they?
3.	What top ranking cabinet minister attended the said conference, and how many sessions, days and hours was the minister present?
4.	Was a special brief presented by the Canadian government at the session in reference to the merits that Banff had to offer as an Olympic site?
5.	For what reason did the minister of external affairs not attend the conference in view of the importance of Canada's success at the conference?
6.	What money was spent by the Canadian government in preparing and sending the delegation to the conference?


Mr. Munro:: 1, 2, and 3. By the "Innsbruck conference" it is presumed that reference is made to the meeting of the international Olympic committee which was held in Innsbruck during the period January 25-28, 1964, and at which the international Olympic committee selected the site for the staging of the 1968 Olympic winter games.
In accordance with the rules of the international Olympic committee, Olympic games are awarded to a city, not to a country, and invitations to stage Olympic games must come from the mayor or highest authority of the city.
The international Olympic committee meetings are only attended by members of the committee; these are private citizens. Occasionally members of international sports of federations and representatives of national Olympic associations attend these meetings by special invitation, but government representatives are never invited to attend the international Olympic committee sessions.

For the foregoing reasons no officials of the Department of External Affairs or any Canadian federal government department attended the meeting of the international Olympic committee. However the Canadian federal government was officially represented at the 1964 Olympic winter games which were held at Innsbruck from January 29 to February 9 inclusive, subsequent to the international Olympic committee meeting. The Hon. Judy LaMarsh attended the official opening ceremony and a number of other events as personal representative of the Prime Minister and as minister responsible for the administration of the national fitness and amateur sport program. Miss M. Meagher, Canadian ambassador to Austria, represented the Canadian government at Innsbruck during the games.
4.	An application to stage the 1968 Olympic winter games in Banff, Alberta, was presented to the international Olympic committee on January 28 by an official delegation, headed by the mayor of Calgary, who was assisted by Mr. James Worrall, president of the Canadian Olympic association, Mr. Ed. Davis, president of the Calgary Olympic development association, Mr. Hans Maciej, vice president of the Calgary Olympic development association, and Mr. J. H. Messinger, general manager of the Calgary Olympic development association. The Calgary application to stage the 1968 Olympic winter games in Banff had the full support of the federal government. However no special briefs or representations were made by the Canadian federal government with reference to the merits of Banff as such action is not permitted under the rules of the international Olympic committee.
5.	See answers 1, 2, and 3 above.
The Secretary of State for External Affairs and his department have at all times given appropriate assistance to the sponsors of the Calgary application.
6.	The promotional costs of preparing Calgary's application to stage the 1968 Olympic winter games in Banff were shared by the federal, provincial and municipal governments, with a portion of the funds coming from private sources. The Canadian federal government spent a total of $110,000 in grants for the years 1961-1963 inclusive to assist the Calgary Olympic development associ-tion in all the aspects of preparing its application, which included the costs of sending the official Calgary delegation to Innsbruck. The federal grants were matched by the province of Alberta, and the city of Calgary, and by private groups and citizens.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: May I rise on a question of privilege at this point, since I understand
Questions
questions of privilege must be raised immediately. Some time ago I asked the Prime Minister if top ranking officials of the Department of External Affairs were attending the conference. He said they were. However, from the answer we have just heard it would appear they were not there. I am sure the Prime Minister did not wish to mislead the house in this regard.


Mr. Pearson:: The hon. gentleman had better look at his question again. He will probably find I did not mislead the house. I think he asked whether any officials attended the games.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: May I speak further to this question of privilege-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I understand the personal interest of the hon. member in this subject but perhaps the question period itself, on the orders of the day, would be the right time at which to raise the matter rather than now.

On the orders of the day:


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I asked a supplementary question arising out of the answer to my question No. 103 on the order paper, and if I understood the Prime Minister correctly he said, either by implication or by absolute statement, that a question had not been put by myself with reference to officials from the Department of External Affairs. May I put the record straight by quoting from page 15 of Hansard of February 19. I asked this question on orders of the day:
Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister advise the house why there was apparently no high ranking Canadian external affairs official or top ranking cabinet minister at the Innsbruck conference to sell Banff successfully as the 1968 winter Olympic games site?
The Prime Minister replied:
Mr. Speaker, at that conference there were not only high ranking Canadian officials-
I might pause there to say he certainly was not talking about officials from the fisheries department.
-but also a high ranking Canadian cabinet minister.
I have in my hand a copy of the answer to my question No. 103 today, and either the answer given on February 19 is false or this answer is false. One has to be wrong, because they contradict each other absolutely. This is the answer that was given today:
For the foregoing reasons-

Questions
I am not going to read the reasons that were given.
-no officials of the Department of External Affairs or any Canadian federal government department attended the meeting of the international Olympic committee.
When I put my question today to the Prime Minister was he in error? Did he make a mistake, and at the same time leave the implication that I was in error? I would think the Prime Minister would now want to correct the mistake be made.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad indeed, on this matter of national and international significance, to correct a statement I made a few minutes ago, when I said that the question of my hon. friend was directed to the Olympic games. I have read his question and I notice he refers not to the games but to a conference. He is quite right, in that sense, in saying that my reply was inaccurate. However, I point out to my hon. friend that his own statement was quite inaccurate. There was no Innsbruck conference, but there was a meeting of the international Olympic committee at Innsbruck, which is a different thing. Therefore when my hon. friend is such a stickler about accuracy on these matters, he should be more accurate himself.



SASKATCHEWAN REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING COLUMBIA RIVER

Mr. Pascoe: Did the Prime Minister receive a message from the Saskatchewan rivers development association asking for full protection of Canada's rights to use of the Columbia river waters in any agreement with the United States, and was any reply made to the Saskatchewan appeal?


John (Jack) Davis: Yes. The Prime Minister received a message from the Saskatchewan rivers development association and a reply was made.



* MACDONALD BUILDING, OTTAWA    LEASE OF SPACE BY INDUSTRY DEPARTMENT

Mr. Pascoe: Has the Department of Industry made arrangements to lease a large part, or all, of the office space in the new ten storey Macdonald building, now being erected on Slater street between Metcalfe and O'Connor streets and, if so (a) how much floor space will be taken by the department (b) how many offices will be occupied, and (c) what will be the total amount of rental by month or by year?


Mr. McWilliam:: The Department of Public Works has leased the entire building with the exception of the ground floor.
(a)	96,420 square feet will be occupied by the Departments of Industry and Defence Production.
[Mr. Woolliams.)
(b)	119 private offices, 59 shared offices (two or more people), 29 general offices and 21 miscellaneous areas.
(c)	$384,000 per annum.



TRANSFER OF MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT, BOUNDARY BAY TO TOFINO, B.C.

Mr. Mather: Is consideration being given to moving the military establishment from Boundary Bay, B.C. to Tofino?
Answer: No.



TENDERS RESPECTING TRIFURCATION OF FRASER RIVER

Mr. Mather: What is the situation regarding calling of tenders or letting of contracts for the trifurcation of the Fraser river?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Tenders have not yet been called for the trifurcation project on the Fraser river at New Westminster, B.C. Some further investigation into the economic aspects of the work is being done at this time and if the report is favourable it is hoped to call tenders later in the year.



NEW BRUNSWICK-FINANCING OF MACTAQUAC POWER PROJECT

Mr. MacRae: 1.	Have any guarantees been made by the federal government to the government of New Brunswick concerning additional financing for the $100,000,000 that will be needed by New Brunswick to construct the Mactaquac power project?
2.	Is the government satisfied that this is the cheapest source of electric power that could be made available for New Brunswick?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. Assistance has been approved in the amount of $20 million from the Atlantic development fund to the New Brunswick electric power commission in connection with the Mactaquac hydro power project. The federal government has not made any other guarantees or undertakings to the government of the province of New Brunswick concerning financing of this project.
2.	Yes, under present conditions.



BUTTER AND BUTTER OIL

Mr. Doucett: 1.	What was the amount of butter the government had in storage as of January 1, and February 1, 1964?
2.	What was the amount of butter oil the government had in storage as of January 1, and February 1, 1964?
3.	How much butter oil was sold or disposed of from July 1, 1963, to February 1, 1964?
4.	In what manner was the butter oil disposed of and to whom?
5.	What amounts were sold and what prices were received?


Harry William Hays: 1. Butter in storage as of January 1, 1964 was 121,147,109 pounds. February 1, 1964 was 110,148,021 pounds.

2.	Butter oil in storage as of January 1, 1964 was 65,383,794 pounds. February 1, 1964 was 63,542,904 pounds.
3.	18,277,786 pounds of butter oil was sold or disposed of, including an estimated 3,900,000 pounds lost in the fire at St. Denis, P.Q. and 161,860 pounds recovered for inedible use.
4.	Sales of butter oil were made on the domestic market to Canadian industrial users, that is, for cheese, ice cream, etc., at 65 cents per pound delivered Ontario and Quebec centres, and to Canadian exporters for shipment abroad at 27 cents per pound f.a.s. Canadian port. The inedible scrap was sold to a tallow manufacturer at $10 per ton on fire site.
5.	Answered in 3 and 4.



FINAL WHEAT PAYMENTS

Mr. Pascoe: 

PERFORMING ARTS CENTRE, OTTAWA

Mr. Laprise: 1.	Is a firm of architects presently drawing up the plans for the national arts centre in Ottawa and, if so (a) what is the name of this firm (b) when was this firm asked to begin preliminary work (c) what fees were paid to date to these architects?
2.	Were tenders called for this work and, if so (a) when were they called (b) how many tenders were submitted (e) who were the tenderers and what was the amount of each tender?

Questions
3.	If tenders were not called, why was this procedure not followed?
4.	Were lawyers retained to review the legal difficulties encountered by the N.C.C. in choosing a site and, if so (a) what are their names (b) were one or more firms consulted (c) what was the cost of these consultations?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. A firm of architects has been appointed to draw plans for the national arts centre in Ottawa, but it has not started yet. (a) Affleck, Desbarats, Di-makopoulos, Lebensold, Sise, architects, 6865 Western ave., Westmount, Que. (b) On January 16, 1964. (c) None.
2.	No. (a), (b) and (c) not applicable.
3.	Architects are paid for their professional services, according to a standard rate of fees, which is why no call for tenders is required when hiring architects. In this case, the architects were chosen and hired because of their wide experience and their proven ability in drawing plans for large theatres and concert halls.
4.	(a) The national capital commission informs us that Mr. Alistair MacDonald has been asked to submit a report on the site,
(b)	Nobody else has been hired for that purpose, (c) No bill has been received yet. [Text]



TIME REQUIRED TO PROCESS FARM LOAN APPLICATIONS

Mr. Maiheson: 1.	What is the average length of time taken between the receipts of application and the dispersals of moneys in the cases of the last 50 agricultural loans in Ontario processed through the Farm Credit Corporation?
2.	What is the actual time taken in the case of the ten slowest of these loans and, in each case, in which county or district of Ontario is the land situated?
3.	What are the dates of receipt of application in the cases of the 10 oldest loans in Ontario still in the course of being processed by the Farm Credit Corporation and in each case, in which county or district of Ontario is the land situated?
4.	Is any study or consideration being given to streamline and expedite agricultural loans?


Harry William Hays: 1. 209 days.
2. 430 days, Norfolk; 408 days, Lanark; 377 days, Prescott; 365 days, Simcoe; 345 days, Bruce; 334 days, Lanark; 325 days, Russell; 322 days, Carleton; 295 days, Bruce; 288 days, Haldimand.
3.	15 Nov. 61, Grey; 28 Feb. 62, Halton; 12 Mar. 62, Leeds; 19 Mar. 62, Frontenac; 8 Apr. 62, Stormont; 13 Apr. 62, Dundas; 27 Apr. 62, Bruce; 14 May 62, Glengarry; 6 June 62, Temiscamingue; 18 June 62, Norfolk.
The answers to 1, 2 and 3 include the time required by borrowers to perfect the title to their properties so that they may give the corporation valid first mortgages.
4.	Yes, the Farm Credit Corporation is actively considering methods of reducing the time required to disburse loans.



WHARF CONSTRUCTION, MATTAGAMI, QUE.

Mr. Laprise: Did the Department of Public Works receive a request from the municipal council of Mattagami, county of Chapleau, for the construction of a wharf on Bell river, near that town and, if so, does the department intend to construct the wharf in the near future?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: We have received no request from the municipal council of Mattagami, county of Chapleau, concerning the construction of a wharf on Bell river, near that town.



WINTER WORKS PROJECTS, PETITE RIVIERE ST. FRANCOIS, QUE.

Mr. Belanger: Has the Department of Labour approved winter works projects for the municipality of Petite Riviere St. Francois in the constituency of Charlevoix for the fiscal year 1963-1964 and, if so, what was the nature of the projects approved?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes. One project was approved covering the digging of ditches and creeks, and the construction of retaining walls, and it was to employ 275 men and provide 10,200 man days' work. The estimated federal share of direct payroll costs amounts to $87,720.



THEFTS OF ARMS AND AMMUNITION FROM DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Mr. Churchill: 1.	What weapons, by type and number, and how much ammunition, and of what type, have been stolen from properties of the Department of National Defence since September 1, 1963?
2.	What is the name and location of the armouries from which arms and ammunition have been stolen?
tMr. Laprise.]

Questions
Answer: 1 and 2.
Armouries	Weapons	Number62nd (Shawinigan) Field Artillery	Rifles	
33Regiment R.C.A. armoury,	Pistols	
3
Shawinigan Falls, P.Q.
Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal	Submachine guns	
30Armoury, Montreal, Que.	Light machine guns	
6Pistols	
5Rocket launchers	
3. 30 Browning machine guns	
260mm mortars	
4Bayonets	
57Rifles	
60Ammunition (.303)	
2,344	rounds(.22)	
13,000	"(7.62)	
1,922	"Noranda Armoury, 9 Field	Sub machine guns	
4Squadron, Noranda, Que.	Light machine guns	
1Rifles	
4Bayonets	
5Bay Street Armoury, 2136	Rifle	
1
Canadian Scottish Regiment Cadet Corps, Victoria, B.C.
Corner Brook Armoury,	Ammunition (.22)	 2,500	rounds
Amalgamated Regional High School Cadet Corps (Corner Brook, Nfld.)
Duncan Armoury, Canadian	Bayonets	 6
Scottish Regiment, Duncan, B.C.
Fort Francis Armoury,	Bayonets	 6
Fort Francis, Ont.
In addition the following was stolen from other national defence properties:
Bayonets	 3
Pistols	 4
Shot gun	 1

Questions



CANADIAN SCIENTISTS GOING TO U.S.

Mr. Orlikow: How many Canadian scientists, research workers, engineers, university professors, and medical doctors
left Canada to work in the United States in each of the past three years?
Answer: Immigrant aliens admitted to the United States, whose country of last permanent residence was Canada, by occupation.
College presidents and deans	
Professors and instructors, agricultural sciences.
biological sciences.
chemistry	
economists	
engineering	
geology and geophysics
mathematics	
medical sciences	
physics	
psychology	
statistics	
natural sciences (n.e.c.) social sciences (n.e.c.).. nonscientific subjects... subject not specified__
Eng
neers, aeronautical..
'	, chemical	
'	, civil	
'	, electrical....
'	, industrial....
'	, mechanical..
'	, metallurgical,
, mining	
, sales	
, (n.e.c.)	
Agricultural scientists..
Biological scientists_
Geologists and geophysicists.
Mathematicians	
Physicists	
Miscellaneous natural scientists.
and metallurgists.
Physicians and surgeons.
Year ended June 30th 1961	1962	19631	2	12	2	33	5	23	5	76	1	53	7	33	3	73	1	61	4	37	5	42	5	111	-	14	3	41	3	27	12	533	33	5439	51	5141	46	4063	71	103127	125	15024	33	30103	87	9323	18	2611	11	8-	35	23380	339	3703	8	912	7	1832	47	437	8	536	33	272	5	2287	280	467
Source: United States department of justice, immigration and naturalization service.



PAY INCREASES FOR SHIPS' CREWS, MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

Mr. MacEwan: 1.	Have the pay rates for crew members on ships of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys been increased recently and, if so, what was the percentage of increase for crew members on the C.H.S. Acadia and C.H.S. Cartier?
2.	What was the percentage of increase for crew members of the other departmental ships?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1. Yes-effective April 1, 1963.
Approximate percentage increase for C.S.S. Acadia 4 per cent; C.S.S. Cartier, 9 per cent.
2. On the east coast: C.S.S. Kapuskasing, 4 per cent; C.S.S. Maxwell, 4 per cent; C.S.S. Baffin, 9 per cent; C.S.S. Hudson, 9 per cent.
^FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN CANADA


Mr. Cote (Chicoutimi): 1.	What was the total foreign investment in Canada from the end of 1954 to July 3, 1963? 
2. What were the total loans obtained on foreign financial markets by the federal, provincial and municipal governments and by corporations from the end of 1954 to July 3, 1963?


Jean-Luc Pepin: Mr. Speaker, the reply to the first part of the question is as follows:
1.	The book value of long term foreign investments in Canada has increased from $12,544 million at the end of 1954 to $23,570 million at the end of 1961. At the end of 1962, it reached about $25,000 million. The figures for the period ending on July 3, 1963 are not yet available.
For part 2, the reply is as follows:
2.	The proceeds from the new issues of bonds, guaranteed and not, sold to non-residents of Canada by municipal, provincial and federal governments and by corporations from the end of 1954 to June 30, 1963 amounted to $5,140 million.



NEW WESTMINSTER, B.C.-REMOVAL OF RAILWAY BRIDGE

Mr. Mather: Is it the intention of the government during the present session, to remove or replace the old railroad bridge at New Westminster, B.C.?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No.



FOUR CENT POSTAL RATE, SURREY AND DELTA, B.C.

Mr. Mather: Is consideraton being given to establishing a 4 cent postal rate for all parts of Surrey and Delta, B.C. municipalities?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: The question of the 4 cent letter rate is under active consideration.



PROTECTION OF POSTMEN AGAINST DOGS

Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the Postmaster General to equip Canadian postmen with aerosol spray to provide them with protection against dogs, as has been done in the U.S.A. and, if so, when will this action be taken?
2.	If not, will the Postmaster General look into this possibility?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: 1. Not at the present time. 2. This problem is being watched closely. Should the situation become serious, we are prepared to adopt whatever measures are reasonable to protect the letter carriers.



* OLDER WORKERS EMPLOYED, CAPE BRETON NORTH AND VICTORIA

Mi. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria): How many workers over the age of 45 have been placed in employment in the constituency of Cape Breton North and Victoria as a result of the program by which their salaries are supplemented to a maximum of $75 monthly out of public funds?


Mr. Byrne:: It is not practicable for the national employment service to make this information available on a constituency basis. As soon as more complete information on the program is obtained as of the end of February a breakdown of placements and applications can be provided for each province.



POST OFFICE BUILDING, PORT ELGIN, ONT.

Mr. Loney: 1.	What is the estimated cost of the proposed Post Office at Port Elgin, Ontario?
2.	Will this project be included in the 1964-65 estimates?
3.	When will tenders be called?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. $45,000.
2.	Yes.
3.	Subject to the approval of funds by parliament it is anticipated that tenders will be called during the summer of 1964.
Questions



INTERIM PROHIBITORY ORDERS, P.O. DEPARTMENT

Mr. Orlikow: 1.	How many times in the past year has the Postmaster General used the power he has under section 7(1) of the Post Office Act to make an interim prohibitory order prohibiting the delivery of all mail to that person affected or deposited by that person in a post office?
2.	What were the reasons for such interim prohibitory orders?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: 2. The orders were issued for the following reasons: (a) 42-lotteries; (b) 20-fraudulent purposes; (c) 5-foreign sports pools; (d) 2- distribution of obscene matter.



BUTTER IN STORAGE

Mr. Maiher: 1.	How many pounds of surplus butter were in
storage in Canada in January 1962,	1963 and
1964?
2.	What is the annual cost of such storage?
3.	Has consideration been given to an exchange of surplus Canadian butter for Cuban sugar?


Harry William Hays: 1. Government storage holding of butter and butter oil at January 1 of each year were:
1962	1963	1964
(million pounds)
Butter	114.6	122.1	120.8Butter oil	56.4	82.0	67.02.	The annual storage cost of these products is 1961-62 fiscal year, $3,960,325; 1962-63 fiscal year, $4,422,361; 1963-64 fiscal year-estimated, $4,000,000.3.	No.



DAILY NEWSPAPERS IN CANADA

Mr. Mather: What was the total number of daily newspapers in Canada in 1944, 1954 and 1964?
Answer: Total number of daily newspapers in Canada, counting morning and evening newspapers separately, for years closest to those requested, as reported in the Canada Year Book*.
1962, 115; 1954, 97; 1945, 87.
*Source: McKim's Directory of Canadian Publications which suspended operations 1941 to 1945.



MUNICIPAL WINTER WORKS PROGRAM

Mr. Starr: Under the municipal winter works program (a) how many applications were received at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (b) how many applications were accepted at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (c) how many applications were rejected, pending or withdrawn at (i) January 31, 1964, (ii) January 31, 1963 (d) what was the estimated total cost of projects at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31 1963 (e) what was the estimated total direct payroll cost of projects at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (f) what was

Questions
the estimated cost ot projects during the period of program at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (g) what was the estimated direct payroll cost of projects during period of program at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (h) what was the percentage of payroll cost to total cost during period of program at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31,	1963	(i) what was the estimated
federal government share of direct payroll costs at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (j)
what was the estimated number of men to be hired during period of program at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (k) what was the estimated man days work to be provided during period of program at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963 (1) what was the number of participating local authorities at (i) January 31, 1964 (ii) January 31, 1963?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Municipal Winter Works Incentive Program
(a)	Applications received
(b)	Applications accepted
(c)	Applications rejected, pending or withdrawn
(d)	Estimated total cost of projects
(e)	Estimated total direct payroll cost of projects
(f)	Estimated cost of projects during period of program
(g)	Estimated payroll cost of projects, during period of program
(h)	Percentage of payroll cost to total cost, during period of program
(i)	Estimated federal government share of direct payroll costs
(j)	Estimated number of men to be hired, during period of program
(k)	Estimated man days work to be provided, during period of program
(l)	Number of participating local authorities
Jan. 31, 1964 5,823 5,754		Jan. 31, 1963 6,054 5,991	
$	69 328,938,000	63 $ 324,088,000	$	105,630,000	$	95,400,000$	237,767,000	$ 241,286,000	$	83,135,000	$	73,910,00035.0	30.6$	43,349,000	$	36,558,000128,867	109,2335,684,255	5,050,6412,435	2,319



POST OFFICE CONSTRUCTION, MARITIME PROVINCES

Mr. Coates: 1.	How many post offices are to be built under the winter works program in 1964 in the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island?
2.	How many post offices will be constructed In the constituencies of Inverness-Richmond, Gloucester and Prince?
3.	What is the estimated total cost of this program?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: 1. The department is planning to build under its 1963-64 winter works program, 18 post offices in Nova Scotia, 18 in New Brunswick and five in Prince Edward Island.
2.	The department plans to build five post offices in Inverness-Richmond, three in Gloucester and two in Prince.
3.	The estimated total cost for all projects across the country under the departmental 1963-64 winter works program is estimated at $3,600,000.



SASKATCHEWAN


Mr. Southam: 1. How many homes were built in Saskatchewan under the 1963-64 winter works $500 bonus plan?

2. How many of these were constructed in the constituency of Moose Mountain?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: 1. A total of 1,339 applications were received in respect to houses being: built in Saskatchewan under the winter house building incentive program. Of this number 31 applications were cancelled and 76 applications were rejected following the first inspection of the building sites as they failed to comply with the requirements of the program.
2. A total of 45 applications were received in respect to housing located in the constituency of Moose Mountain. Of these, two were rejected following the first inspection of the building sites as they failed to comply with the requirements of the program.



P.O. DEPARTMENT PARTICIPATION IN PHILATELIC EXHIBITION

Mr. Lambert: Has the Post Office Department received an invitation to participate in Canpex '64, being the Canadian national philatelic exhibition to be held May 14-16 next in Edmonton, Alberta and, if so, what has been the decision and what would be the nature of the participation?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Yes. The Post Office Department has accepted the invitation and arrangements are being made to provide a philatelic

display, a special cancellation die and a temporary exhibition post office staffed by postal employees.



POINT EDWARD NAVAL BASE LAY-OFFS

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
1.	Since October 1, 1963, how many employees at the Point Edward naval base have been laid off?
2.	How many of these employees have been assisted in finding other employment by the national employment service and how many are still employed at the present time?
Answer: 1. Continuing employees-nil. Casual prevailing rate employees-23.
2. Assisted in finding employment by national employment service-2; still employed -583.



NOVA SCOTIA


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
1.	Does the government plan to construct new homes in the Westmount area for the use of personnel who will be transferred to the proposed national parks administration headquarters at the Point Edward naval base?
2.	How many personnel will be employed (all classes) at the proposed national parks administration headquarters?
3.	What new employment possibilities will be available at these proposed headquarters for personnel who may be laid off at the Point Edward naval base?


Arthur Laing: 1. No.
2.	31.
3.	Most of the personnel for this headquarters are already employed in the national parks branch. Approximately six new employees will be recruited by the civil service commission.



APPOINTMENT OF WHARFINGERS, VICTORIA COUNTY, N.S.

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
Is it the intention of the department concerned to appoint wharfingers at the following locations In Victoria county: Ingonish ferry, Ingonish beach, Ingonish north, Neil Harbour and White Point?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Information available regarding commercial traffic at these points does not indicate the need for appointment of wharfingers at the present time.



MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS TENDER CALLS

Mr. Rapp: With respect to the following tender calls by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys; R.Q. No. 2024-March 7, 1963, R.Q. No. 2032-March 12, 1963, R.Q. No. 2034-March 14, 1963, R.Q. No. 2019-March 25, 1963, R.Q. No. 2046-March 25, 1963, R.Q. No. 2058-March 26, 1963, R.Q. No. 2073-April 16,
Questions
1963, R.Q. No. 2078-April 22, 1963, R.Q. No. 2093-May 2, 1963, R.Q. No. 2094-May 7, 1963, R.Q. No. 2101-May 14, 1963, R.Q. No. 2105-May 17, 1963, R.Q. No. 2109-May 22, 1963, R.Q. No. 2111-May 23, 1963, R.Q. No. 2162-August 30,	1963 R.Q. No. 2174-
September 5, 1963, R.Q. No. 2179-September 18, 1963, R.Q. No. 2181-September 24, 1963, R.Q. No. 2202-October 1, 1963, R.Q. No. 2224-October 16, 1963, R.Q. No. 2231-October 23, 1963, in each case (a) to whom was the contract awarded and what was the total price (b) what was the total price paid to the successful bidder upon completion of this contract (c) what were the names of other bidders and what were their quotations?
Answer: 1. R.Q. No. 2024, March 7, 1963:
(a)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, $1,850.00.
(b)	$1,850.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys, $1,880.33; Atlas Aviation Ltd., $1,950.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $2,156.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $2,269.20; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $3,200.00.
2.	R.Q. No. 2032, March 12, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $9,276.27.
(b)	$9,276.27.
(c)	Atlas Aviation Ltd., $10,750.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $11,800.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $12,528.00.
3.	R.Q. 2034, March 14, 1963
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $16,518.40.
(b)	$16,518.40
(c)	Atlas Aviation Ltd., $18,981.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $20,803.20; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $23,773.96; Aero Photo Inc., $23,- 840.40; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $27,975.00; Aerial Photography Co. Ltd., $6,794.37 (incomplete quotation).
4.	R.Q. 2019, March 25, 1963:
(a)	Canadian Aero Service Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $110,000.00.
(b)	$107,963.00.
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $128,300.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $189,850.00.
5.	R.Q. 2046, March 25, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $3,534.00.
(b)	$3,534.00.
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $3,562.00; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $3,575.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $4,000.00; Atlantic Air Survey Ltd., $4,661.49; Aerial Photography Co. Ltd., $4,868.00.
6.	R.Q. 2058, March 26, 1963:
(a)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, $21,187.11.
(b)	$19,624.41
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $22,782.69; Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $26,425.10; Atlas Aviation Ltd., $41,150.00; Aerial Photography

Questions
Co. Ltd., $5,290.00 (incomplete quotation); Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $7,360.00 (incomplete quotation).
7.	R.Q. 2073, April 16, 1963:
(a)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, $1,749.00.
(b)	$1,749.00.
(c)	Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $1,853.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $2,273.70; Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $2,623.50.
8.	R.Q. 2078, April 22, 1963:
(a)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, $8,289.00.
(b)	$3,665.00 (not yet completed).
(c)	Aerial Photography Co. Ltd., $11,063.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $11,696.46; Atlantic Air Survey, $14,560.70; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $18,387.00.
9.	R.Q. 2093, May 2, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $16,440.00.
(b)	$16,440.00.
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $17,433.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $20,475.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $24,932.00; Aero Surveys Ltd., $27,493.00.
10.	R.Q. 2094, May 7, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $904.34.
(b)	$904.34.
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $926.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,431.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $1,445.00; Aero Surveys Ltd., $1,524.00.
11.	R.Q. 2101, May 14, 1963:
(a) Spartan Air Services Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $1,503.60.
(b)	$698.10 (not yet completed).
(c)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,524.60; Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $1,707.30; Aerial Photography Co. Ltd., $1,795.00; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $1,820.00.
12.	R.Q. 2105, May 17, 1963:
(a) Spartan Air Services Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $2,778.00.
(b)	$2,586.00 (not yet completed).
(c)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $3,165.00; Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $3,626.72; Aero Surveys Ltd., $3,694.00; Atlas Aviation Ltd., $3,810.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $6,850.00.
13.	R.Q. 2109, May 22, 1963:
(a)	Aero Surveys Ltd., Vancouver, B.C., $1,044.00.
(b)	$783.00 (not yet completed).
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $1,213.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,215.00; Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $1,746.80.

14.	R.Q. 2111, May 23, 1963:
(a)	Spartan Air Services, Ottawa, Ontario, $430.50.
(b)	$430.50.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $508.61; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $875.00.
15.	R.Q. 2162, August 30, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $1,407.01.
(b)	Not yet completed.
(c)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,499.40; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $1,573.35; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $1,639.65; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $2,527.25.
16.	R.Q. 2174, September 5, 1963:
(a)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $2,253.00.
(b)	$2,253.00.
(c)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $2,380.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $2,987.00; Capital Air Survey Ltd., $4,752.19.
17.	R.Q. 2179, September 18, 1963:
(a)	Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, $1,320.00.
(b)	Not yet completed.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $1,320.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $2,019.60; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $2,376.00; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $2,967.00.
18.	R.Q. 2181, September 24, 1963:
(a)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $868.75.
(b)	$868.75.
(c)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., $1,209.30; A. E. Simpson Ltd., $1,670.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,820.00; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $1,862.60; Atlas Aviation Ltd., $2,840.00.
19.	R.Q. 2202, October 1, 1963:
(a)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $1,452.70.
(b)	Not yet completed.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys, $1,460.00; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,745.16; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $2,248.00.
20.	R.Q. 2224, October 16, 1963:
(a)	A. E. Simpson Ltd., Montreal, Quebec, $878.09.
(b)	Not yet completed.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $1,179.90; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $1,400.00; Spartan Air Services Ltd., $2,026.35; Canadian Aero Service Ltd., $2,184.00.
21.	R.Q. 2231, October 23, 1963:
(a)	Spartan Air Services Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, $2,224.00.
(b)	Not yet completed.
(c)	Capital Air Surveys Ltd., $2,383.70; Hunting Survey Corp. Ltd., $3,015.00; Aero Surveys Ltd., $3,990.00.



COMMITTEE ON BRANCH LINE ABANDONMENT

Mr. Slefanson: 1.	Did the government establish an inquiry committee to investigate the effects of railway branch line abandonments and, if so, when, and who are members of this committee?
2.	Where did this committee hold meetings?
3.	How many meetings were held?
4.	Who submitted briefs and who gave evidence before this committee?
5.	Has this committee submitted a report and, if so, will their report be the foundation of a railway policy based on the interests of all concerned groups and designed to maintain essential branch line services?
Answer: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. This matter was dealt with within the orbit of government operations involving interdepartmental consultations and consultations with outside agencies and persons under the over-all direction of the Minister of Transport and of a special committee of cabinet under his chairmanship.



RAOUL GRENIER, PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT

Mr. Smith: Is Raoul Grenier employed in the office of the Minister of Public Works and, if so (a) what position does he hold (b) what salary is he paid (c) was he hired following a civil service competition (d) what are his duties (e) has he assumed any of the duties of, or has he any supervisory authority over the personnel branch and personnel officers of the department?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: (a) Mr. Grenier is loaned temporarily from the department to the office of the minister.
(b)	$14,200.
(c)	Mr. Grenier has been in the civil service since February 19, 1939. All positions held have been as a result of certification by the civil service commission.
(d)	Liaison duties on behalf of the minister and the deputy minister.
(e)	No.



POST OFFICE BUILDING, LITTLE NARROWS, N.S.

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
Is it the intention of the department concerned to call for tenders for the construction of a new post office building at Little Narrows, Victoria county, Nova Scotia?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No.



APPLICATIONS FOR WINTER CONSTRUCTION BONUS, NOVA SCOTIA

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 198[DOT]-Mr. Muir (Cape Breton
North and Victoria):
How many applications have been accepted for the $500 incentive available to purchasers of winter built houses in (a) the constituency of Cape Breton North and Victoria (b) the constituency of Inverness-Richmond (c) all of the island of Cape Breton, and (d) all of the province of Nova Scotia?
Allan Joseph MacEachen: (a) 8; (b) 7; (c) 28; (d) 354.
Questions



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE,

[Stage Direction]
Campbell's bay, que.
Mr. Mariineau: 1.	Has the unemployment insurance commission closed its unemployment insurance office at Campbell's Bay in the county of Pontiac?
2.	If it has been decided to close this office, for what reasons was such a decision taken?
3.	Are there any other unemployment insurance offices in the county of Pontiac?
4.	How many persons received assistance from this unemployment insurance office during 1963?
5.	How many (a) claims (b) applications for employment, were registered at this unemployment insurance office during 1963?
Answer: 1. Yes.
2.	The main activities of this office involved taking claims for unemployment insurance benefit and applications for employment. In 1959, it was decided that agents would be appointed to provide service in such circumstances, but the Campbell's Bay office was continued until the officer in charge retired on February 12, 1964. The commission is prepared to consider the appointment of an agent if this is necessary.
3.	No.
4.	1,949 visits to the office were reported for 1963.
5.	(a) 891 claims, (b) 1,816 applications for employment.



INQUIRY INTO EXPENSE ACCOUNT PRACTICES

Mr. Mather: Is an Inquiry under way into expense account spending practices in the higher income brackets and, if so, when may a report on such practices be expected?


John Richard Garland: Yes. The results of the inquiry will not be known until the taxation division can complete its work on the tax returns presently being filed.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FOR FARM WORKERS

Mr. Mather: Is consideration being given to extending unemployment insurance to farm employees on a compulsory basis?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The committee of inquiry into the Unemployment Insurance Act recommended that the existing exception relating to employees in agriculture be continued by reason of administrative problems but that efforts be made to solve these problems and extend coverage within this class if and when appropriate procedures can be devised.
A study of this recommendation is under way.



* DISPOSITION OF PROPERTIES OF H.M.C.S. &quot;PREVOST&quot;, LONDON, ONT.

Mr. Irvine: 1. What is the plan for disposition of the properties of H.M.C.S. Prevost, London, Ontario, when it officially closes on March 31, 1964?

Questions
2.	Is it to be disposed of through Crown Assets Disposal Corporation?
3.	Is it to be used by the Department of Fisheries?
4.	Is it to be disposed of some other way and, if so, what are the plans?
5.	What arrangements are being made for continued employment of the maintenance employees, five of whom are over 40 years of age and have been employed for some years in their respective capacities?


Mr. Cardin:: The answer to this question was given in the house on February 28, 1964 to the effect that a decision concerning the disposition of H.M.C.S. Prevost, London, Ontario will not be made until after the receipt of the Suttie committee report on the militia reorganization.



NORTH SYDNEY, N.S.-UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE

Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
Is it the intention of the government to continue to reduce the staff of the unemployment insurance commission at North Sydney and eventually close same?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No.



REMOVAL OF WEAPONS FROM CADET CORPS

Mr. Churchill: With reference to the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (a) from which cadet corps have weapons and ammunition been removed by the Department of National Defence (b) to which cadet corps have such weapons and ammunition been returned (c) from which cadet corps have weapons and ammunition not been removed (d) have weapons and ammunition been removed from cadet corps in any of the other provinces?
Answer: Orders were issued to withdraw temporarily small arms and ammunition from reserve units in the province of Quebec and in areas of Ontario and New Brunswick adjacent to Quebec. Weapons and ammunition were removed from all cadet corps in the province of Quebec. As has been stated, it would not be in the public interest to designate the exact areas in the provinces of Ontario and New Brunswick where increased precautions were deemed necessary. To answer in detail (a), (b) and (c) relating to Ontario and New Brunswick would nullify this. In so far as Nova Scotia is concerned only stocks of ammunition in excess of immediate training needs have been transferred to central depots, (d) Yes.



CO-ORDINATION OF DEFENCE ORGANIZATIONS

Mr. Maiher: Is consideration being given to co-ordinating Canada's defence organization to the end that a single chief of staff will report on the needs of the armed services?
Answer: Any decision with regard to the possible reorganization of the armed services

would be a matter of government policy to be announced in the usual manner.



NATIONAL DEFENCE HEADQUARTERS EMPLOYEES

Mr. Mather: What is the total number of men, civilian and military, employed at national defence headquarters?
Answer: As of December 31, 1963, the total number of service personnel employed at national defence headquarters was 3,269, and civilian 4,483.



ARDA EXPENDITURES IN WESTERN CANADA

Mr. Mather: What amount, in dollars, has been expended during the past three fiscal years by ARDA in its services in (a) Manitoba (b) Saskatchewan (c) Alberta, and (d) British Columbia?


Harry William Hays: There were no expenditures under the Agricultural Rehabilitation and Development Act during the fiscal year 1961-62. Expenditures for the fiscal years
1962-63 and	1963-64	were as	follows:	(a)	(b)	(c)	(d)BritishMani- Saskatch-	Colum-toba	ewan	Alberta	bia1962-63	57,548	161,673	-	-1963-64 (to	the end of	February)	633,877	553,546	117,718	30,549Total	691,425	715,219	117,718	30,549COLD STORAGE	; WAREHOUSE, NORTHWEST	QUEBEC


Mr. Laprise: Has the government of Quebec or any agricultural or economic agency asked for a grant to build a cold storage warehouse in northwest Quebec?


Harry William Hays: In so far as the question relates to the Department of Agriculture: no.



ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL FROM MEGANTIC CONSTITUENCY

Mr. Langlois: 1.	In what units of the armed forces of Canada are there servicemen coming from the constituency of Megantic?
2.	How many servicemen coming from that constituency are members of the army, the air force and the navy and of each unit of these three services?
Answer: 1 and 2. Records of residence on enrolment of service personnel are not maintained by constituency. However, the number of service personnel coming from the county of Megantic are: army, 70; air force, 63; navy, 10.
The number in each unit is not readily available.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
BARGE LOADING FACILITIES, CAMPBELL RIVER, B.C. Motion No. 1-Mr. Barnett:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the government and individuals and organizations since 1957 on the subject of the establishment of barge landing facilities at the mouth of the Campbell river.
George Roy McWilliam: Tabled herewith.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 2-Mr. Knowles (for Mr. Orlikow):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams and other correspondence since January I, 1964, between the government of the province of Manitoba and/or its ministers, and the government of Canada and/or its ministers, and between representatives of the employees of T.C.A. in Winnipeg, and the government of Canada or its ministers, with regard to further lay-offs at the T.C.A. repair base at Winnipeg.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 3-Mr. Pigeon:
That an	humble	address	be	presented	to	HisExcellency	praying	that he	will	cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of all reports, correspondence, etc., exchanged between the government of Canada and the communist government of Mongolia following the recognition by Canada of the Mongolian government.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 4-Mr. Douglas:
That an	humble	address	be	presented	to	HisExcellency	praying	that he	will	cause to	be	laid
before this house a copy of all correspondence dated since January 11, 1964, between the Prime Minister of Canada and the provincial governments with reference to the proposed Canada pension plan! including all correspondence referring to the revised terms of the plan as set out in the Prime Minister's memorandum to the provinces dated January 1, 1964.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 5-Mr. Pigeon:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the government and the governments of the provinces concerning arrangements for loans to university students by the federal government as announced in the speech from the throne.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 6-Mr. Nielsen:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of "government contract regulations" together with
Motions for Papers
any other documents relating to the awarding of contracts by the government for the supply of goods and/or services to the government.
Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Speaker, the minister has asked for my agreement to let this motion stand, which I am prepared to give. I might say to him, though, that the government contract regulations to which I refer in the motion are the government contract regulations referred to in sessional paper 270 in reply to my question No. 1,237 of last session.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Motion stands.



WINTER MAINTENANCE OF HAINES ROAD, YUKON

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 12-Mr. Nielsen:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of any contract or agreement or correspondence and memoranda constituting such contract or agreement between the government of the United States or the government of the State of Alaska or any agent or agency of either and the government of Canada or the government of the Yukon Territory or any agent or agency of either with respect to the maintenance of the Canadian section of the road from Haines Junction in the Yukon to Haines in Alaska during the winter of 1963-64.
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, we have no objection to this motion, subject to receiving the consent of other governments involved.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion, subject to the reservation stated by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 13-Mr. Howe (Wellingion-
Huron):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams and other correspondence exchanged between the C.B.C., individuals and organizations, in connection with the conversion of the Toronto radio station CJBC from English speaking to French speaking.
Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. member would consent to having this motion stand. I would like to have the opportunity to discuss this matter with him.


Mr. Howe (Wellington-Huron):: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.
Motion stands.



FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR CULTURAL CENTRE, NEW BRUNSWICK

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 14-Mr. Bell:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid
[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers
before this house copies of all correspondence, letters, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the federal government and the government of New Brunswick, city of Saint John, and any other organizations or bodies in the said province on the subject of financial assistance for provincial cultural centres in connection with centennial planning.
John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to accept this motion provided the government of New Brunswick gives consent. We understand that this consent is forthcoming.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion, subject to the reservation stated by the parliamentary secretary?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 15-Mr. Mariineau:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all telegrams, letters and other documents exchanged between the government of the province of Quebec and the government of Canada concerning the proposed loans to university students.
[Stage Direction]
He said: Mr. Speaker, I see that this notice for the production of papers deals with the same thing as the motion which was presented by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm and to which I have already given my support. Consequently, I should like to withdraw my notice of motion.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 16-Mr. Gregoire:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the report of the engineers, experts, technicians or advisers of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the choice of a new medium-range aircraft by Trans-Canada Air Lines.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I could raise a point with respect to this and the two subsequent motions. I would draw the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that these motions ask for information of internal concern to T.C.A.; therefore they come under the principle that has been accepted by all governments since it was laid down by Mr. Meighen in 1921 with respect to the internal management of crown companies. For that reason, since that principle has always been respected by the house, I would hope the hon. gentleman would not press his motions.


Mr. Gregoire:: Mr. Speaker, I still wish to maintain my notice of motion for production of papers.

Since no one has asked that my motion, No. 16, be put to a vote, I will myself request that a vote be taken on the production of the papers mentioned in the notice of motion No. 16.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder, sir, whether the house would agree, in the circumstances, to vote on all three motions, to save the time of the house?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Under the rules which govern the house, I must put the motion.

That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of the report of the engineers, experts, technicians or advisers of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the choice of a new medium-range aircraft by Trans-Canada Air Lines.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, as far as voting at the same time on the three motions, I submit that the notices of motions for production of papers bearing numbers 17 and 18, which deal with the production of correspondence exchanged by the Minister of Transport and members of the Trans-Canada Air Lines, crown corporation, having nothing in common with the subject mentioned earlier by the Minister of Transport. In my opinion, motions Nos. 16 and 18, for production of papers put together, might be dealt with under one vote, other than a vote on motion No. 16.


Mr. Speaker:: I propose to call for the vote on motion No. 16. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Those in favour of adopting the said motion will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those opposed will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:


Mr. Speaker:: Call in the members.


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the motion lost.


Mr. Cyr:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I voted, I would have voted against the motion. [Text]



CONSTRUCTION IN CANADA OF NEW T.C.A. AIRCRAFT

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 17-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the total or partial construction of a new medium range aircraft for Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Mr. Speaker:: I understand that the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) would like a vote on motions 17 and 18 at the same time.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, should the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill) not be ready to have the documents produced, I would ask that notices of motions for the production of papers Nos. 17 and 18 be transferred for debate, under standing order 47 of this house.


Mr. Speaker:: The motion is transferred to the order paper for debate.

Motions for Papers



PURCHASE OF NEW AIRCRAFT BY T.C.A.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 18-Mr. Gregoire:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or documents exchanged between the Minister of Transport or any of the officers of his department and the president or any of the officers or employees of Trans-Canada Air Lines concerning the purchase of a new medium-range aircraft by Trans-Canada Air Lines.
Mr. Speaker:: The motion is transferred to the order paper for debate.



HARBOURMASTER, SARNIA, ONT.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 19-Mr. Aiken:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, telegrams and other communications received by the Minister of Transport or his department, and replies thereto, since October 1, 1963, in connection with the removal of Whitney Hillmer, harbourmaster at Sarnia, and the appointment of his successor.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 20-Mr. Knowles (for Mr. Orli-kow):
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all letters and telegrams between the John Howard society and the Elizabeth Fry society of Ontario and the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice with respect to the building of the new women's prison at Cornwall, Ontario.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 21-Mr. Smallwood:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, memoranda or other documents forwarded since April 22, 1963, by any member of parliament representing an electoral district in the national capital region, to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, the Secretary of State or any official of these departments or to the civil service commission on the subject of collective bargaining for public servants.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the minister concerned has been in contact with me regarding motions 21 and 22, and I have agreed to stand both motions.
Mr. Speaker:: Motion stands.



[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 23-Mr. Soulham (for Mr. More):
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, memoranda, briefs or other documents exchanged since April 22, 1963, between any of the staff associations of the public service of Canada and the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, the Secretary of State or any official of 
these departments or the civil service commission on the subject of collective bargaining for public servants.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 24-Mr. Soulham (for Mr. More):
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, memoranda, briefs or other documents exchanged since April 22, 1963, between any of the staff associations of the public service of Canada and the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, the Secretary of State or any official of these departments or the civil service commission on the subject (a) of cyclical reviews of salaries for the public service (b) salary increases for those clerical and other grades which did not receive increases after the last review.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 26-Mr. Mullally:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house copies of all letters, telegrams, documents or other communications exchanged between the Minister of Agriculture, officials of his department or officers of the agricultural rehabilitation development branch (ARDA) and the ministers officers or representatives of the government of Prince Edward Island on all matters relating to ARDA since the inception of the program.
Guy Favreau: Subject to the consent of the government concerned, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Subject to the reservation as expressed by the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 28-Mr. Fleming (Okanagan-
Revelstoke):
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, telegrams or other communications between the 12th of February, 1964, and the date hereof, touching on the raids made under the direction of the Department of National Defence in search of arms or ammunition in colleges, schools or other institutions.
Mr. Hellyer:: Mr. Speaker, there were no raids; consequently if this motion were passed there would be a nil return. If, however, the hon. gentleman just wishes the correspondence relating to the temporary removal of rifles from cadet corps, the government is prepared to accept the motion on that basis and I can table the correspondence at once.


Mr. Fleming (Okanagan-Revelsloke):: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Motion adopted subject to the reservation expressed by the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 29-Mr. Langlois:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams or other documents exchanged between the Prime Minister or any minister of the cabinet and Mr. Jean Lesage, premier of the province of Quebec or Mr. Gerin-Lajoie, minister of youth, concerning interest free loans to university students, as mentioned in the speech from the throne.
Mr. Speaker:: Mr. Langlois moves, seconded by Mr. Gauthier-


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the hon. member for Megantic is willing to allow his motions Nos. 29 to 52 to stand.


Mr. Langlois:: I have no objection, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: I understand it has been agreed by the hon. member for Megantic that motions Nos. 29 to 52 inclusive should stand.
Motions stand.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Nicholas Mandziuk (Marquette):: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Prime Minister. It relates to last night's program on the C.B.C. called "Viewpoint" on which Mr. Yvon Turcot, a well known and active Liberal and a former member of the Prime Minister's staff, expressed the view that Canadians are opposed to the visit of Her Majesty the Queen. Is the Prime Minister prepared to recommend measures to parliament to prevent the further wanton expression of such outrageous and disloyal utterances through the medium of the publicly owned C.B.C.?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I cannot necessarily accept the description of the broadcaster or of his broadcast but I will be very glad to bring the hon. member's point of view to the attention of the C.B.C.


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I think the Prime Minister has missed the point of my question altogether. I asked whether he is prepared to bring measures before the house that would prevent a recurrence of such outrageous outbursts as took place last night.


An hon. Member:: By outrageous Liberals.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have only the hon. member's statement that the broadcaster was a Liberal and that the broadcast was outrageous. I will have to look into both statements.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in view of the mounting criticism of certain aspects of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, would the Prime Minister arrange for the early convening of the committee on broadcasting?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think I said the other day that the government was looking into that possibility.


J. Nicholas (Nick) Mandziuk: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I will accept the Prime Minister's statement with regard to the gentleman who expressed his views on "Viewpoint", but I have not received an answer from the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to bring in measures to prevent a recurrence of such statements.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am not prepared to recommend measures to be brought into the house to deal with a broadcast, the text of which I have not seen and which has been described only by my hon. friend as outrageous.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the Prime Minister consider it is good policy that the C.B.C. should countenance the making of such suggestive statements that lead to the disunity of our nation? I am sure if he examines the script of what was said last night he will be concerned about the matter that has been raised.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I deplore and disagree with such statements made by anybody, whether under the auspices of the C.B.C. or whether made in this house or any other place.


Mr. Speaker:: Was the hon. member for Skeena rising on a supplementary?


Mr. Howard:: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. R. W. Pritiie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, in view of a campaign which seems to be under way in certain quarters, will the Prime Minister assure the house that no act of his will lead to parliamentary censorship, direct or indirect, over public affairs commentary on the C.B.C.?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe in that kind of censorship. I think we already have effective enough laws to deal with this kind of matter, and when statements and broadcasts break the law they can be dealt with under the law.

Inquiries of the Ministry NATIONAL DEFENCE



POSSIBLE CLOSING OF RADAR STATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caoueile (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Can he give a clear answer to a question I have asked him several times during the last session? Can he tell the house if he intends, or if his department intends, to close up the radar station at St. Sylvestre, in Lotbiniere county and, if so, what provisions are made to take care of the employees who will become unemployed through this action?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: As I have stated in the house on several occasions, Mr. Speaker, a study is under way in respect of the radar early warning system to see if some stations can be closed without reducing unduly the effectiveness of the system. I hope within a very few days it will be possible to make an announcement in respect of the decisions that will have been taken.


Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. Under the present review of early warning stations is it proposed to close the R.C.A.F. station at Edgar? If so, on what date is this planned to take place, this summer or in the fall-I know the minister probably cannot be explicit? Also, has provision been made for the employment elsewhere of the civilian staff?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, the same answer I gave the hon. member for Villeneuve will apply.


Philip Bernard Rynard: A supplementary question to the minister. I should like to ask whether Edgar is on the list of stations which are under review for possible closure?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am sorry, I cannot give any more information at present than I previously gave with respect to this matter, but I will just as soon as I am able to do so.



INQUIRY AS TO RECOVERY OF STOLEN ARMS AND AMMUNITION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: I have a question for the Minister of National Defence. About 14 days ago I asked him if any recovery had been made of the arms and ammunition stolen from armouries in recent days. I should like to repeat that question, and ask him whether any recovery

has been made of the approximately 140 rifles, light machine guns and other machine guns and the over 4,000 rounds of ammunition suitable for these weapons, an amount sufficient to equip 140 men for action; and if not, what progress is being made in the search for those who stole these weapons and ammunition?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: If the hon. gentleman is referring to the arms and ammunition removed from the armoury in Montreal, I regret to say they have not yet been recovered. The Department of National Defence is lending every possible assistance to the local authorities in their effort to apprehend the persons responsible for this crime.


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to direct a question to the minister arising indirectly out of the question asked by my hon. friend from Winnipeg South Centre. Is it a fact that over the week end Renfrew collegiate institute was raided, and is it also a fact that the national war museum today had certain arms removed from its collection? Was this action taken on the instructions of the minister? I ask because I think the house should really know something of the plan. Where does he intend to strike naxt?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I do not think the question is worthy of the right hon. gentleman who posed it. However, I may say I am happy to advise him that when an attempt was made to gain unlawful access to the naval depot at Montreal Monday night the action was repelled by the guards on duty at this site.


John George Diefenbaker: 
Gordon Minto Churchill: A supplementary question: in answering my inquiry, the minister limited his statement to the armoury in Montreal. He made no comment about the weapons which were stolen from Shawinigan Falls and the Noranda armoury.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: As the hon. gentleman knows, no recovery has been made of the arms stolen at Shawinigan. Most of the arms stolen in Noranda have been recovered.


Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: too, have a supplementary question. I want to ask the minister whether the phrase "operation disarmament" is the official terminology used by the Department of National Defence

to describe its recent activities or whether it is a gratuitous newspaper title for its new policy?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I think it is the secret weapon of the loyal opposition.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the Minister of National Defence?
Following the terms used in respect of the supposed attack which failed last evening at the navy depot, can the minister tell us whether there were prisoners, loss of life or casualties?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: There was no loss of life or injury that I know of. I regret there were no prisoners taken.


Hon. Paul Mariineau (Ponliac-Temisca-mingue):: Can the minister say if there were any arrests made?

On the orders of the day:


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice.
Since the Minister of National Defence does not seem to know or does not want to say if arrests were made following the attack on a military depot in Montreal which, it is said, was beaten off by the armed forces, can the Minister of Justice give the house information about that matter and tell us if charges will be laid?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question, I have to repeat what I said last week. For the time being, I cannot make any report to the house or say how far the investigation has progressed.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration of which I gave him notice on the telephone earlier. Will the minister relate to the house what plans exist, as to time, date and the like, for the proposed federal-provincial conference on Indian affairs to which reference was made at the last federal-provincial conference last fall?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: I should like to take this question as notice in order to give the hon. member a full report.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: I should
like to ask the Prime Minister if he would be agreeable to tabling the correspondence between himself and the premier of Quebec on the matter of the Canada pension plan, as he did in connection with the correspondence between himself and the premier of Ontario?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I may be inaccurate, but I believe we have already passed a motion for the production of those papers. However, I shall be glad to look into the matter.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Finance a question and would incidentally congratulate him for being the first minister of finance in Canada to exceed the billion mark for interest to be paid on the Canadian debt.
Would the Minister of Finance tell us whether the error made in the amount of interest to be paid on this country's debt last year is due to the former government, which, I think, had prepared last year's estimates, or whether it should be attributed to his department, since he took over and to those who helped him prepare his budget last year?


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I pointed out an error, but I did not intend to lay the blame on anyone in particular, and I prefer not to do so.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. E. Gray (Essex West):: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. In view of the urgent interest in the matter, can the Secretary of State inform the house with regard to the status of the charter of the Hett clinic foundation in Windsor, in the

Inquiries of the Ministry light of statements made by Dr. Cotnam, supervising coroner of Ontario, as found in this morning's Globe and Mail?


Maurice Lamontagne: Before answering this question I should like to say that I have also received from the hon. member for Simcoe East notice of his intention to ask a similar question. This matter arises out of a coroner's inquest into the death of Donald McConnell, which occurred at the clinic in Windsor operated by this foundation. The foundation is a federal company incorporated under part II of the Companies Act in 1947.
The coroner's jury in its findings recommended that the charter for this clinic be revoked, and a copy of these findings was forwarded to the Department of the Secretary of State by Dr. Cotnam asking merely for the department's comments.
Under the Companies Act there is no provision whereby the charter of a dominion part II corporation may be revoked by simple fiat of the Secretary of State, even though there is a recommendation by a coroner's jury. The procedure is at common law before the courts of the province where the corporation is doing business. To proceed in this fashion would require a complete investigation of the operations of this foundation, which normally would be instigated by the provincial authorities.
The department of the attorney general of Ontario has been asked to bring to the attention of my department any further developments in the situation and has been invited to make any other recommendations which it may care to make at this time.



REQUEST FOR REPORT ON EFFORTS TO DISCOURAGE SMOKING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: have an entirely innocent question which I should like to address to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. I wonder if the hon. lady could give us a progress report on the work of the committee which was set up a while ago to discourage the use of tobacco in Canada.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I should like to report, in reply to the hon. member's question, that two committees were set up as a result of the smoking conference last fall, the technical advisory committee on health education concerning smoking and health and the committee on research concerning smoking hazards. Both committees have already held special meetings. With regard to the health education committee I might say that the department is


well advanced in the preparation of a reference handbook for physicians, nurses and other members of the medical profession. We hope that distribution of these handbooks can begin within four to six weeks.
Regarding the research committee, meetings were held here on February 21 and 22. The recommendations to this committee with respect to research on smoking, including motivational and behavioural types, are being studied within the department at the present time with a view to their early implementation.



REPRESENTATIONS OF FARMERS UNION RESPECTING HEALTH INSURANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. In view of the request made to the government yesterday by the National Farmers Union for the early enactment of health insurance or medical care, would the Prime Minister tell us what he told the National Farmers Union? Would he also tell us whether we could expect legislation in this field at this session?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, if we do not make more progress with legislation than we have made this afternoon we may have some difficulty. I told the delegation that we expected to proceed with this matter at a very early date. We hope the hearings will be completed before the committee, and the legislation enacted by parliament before the end of this session. No, Mr. Speaker-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Leave that answer as it was, please.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, in the interests of accuracy I should inform the house that I thought the hon. gentleman was talking of the pension plan. I should like to modify my answer in its application to medicare, which I now understand is what the hon. member was talking about, and tell him that this matter is still under consideration.



FLUORIDATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Joseph Slogan (Springfield):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister of health. In view of the evasion of my question, by the Prime Minister yesterday, could the minister of health let the house know with a straight yes or no answer whether her department endorses or does not endorse the principle of water fluoridation?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, may I say that it is an extremely difficult question which asks a woman to answer either yes or no.


Joseph Slogan: In view of the fact that over the years public money has been spent by her department on studies of the effects of water fluoridation, does not the minister feel that it is her duty to give some leadership and provide some information about the results which these studies have produced?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Mr. Speaker, in common with all other members of the front bench I am attempting to give as much leadership as possible, despite the difficulties which, by asking such questions, my hon. friend is putting in our way.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Does the minister not know that when the present Secretary of State for External Affairs was minister of national health and welfare he promoted a grant to the national health league on the understanding that they would promote the fluoridation of water?



ROYAL VISIT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Maurice Lamontagne: May I, Mr. Speaker, seize this opportunity of answering a question asked on February 26, 1964, by the hon. member for Pontiac-Temiscamingue (Mr. Martineau)?
The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation informs me that Mr. Chaput's statements were made on February 24 last, at a dinner of the Young Men's Canadian Club, in Toronto, where Mr. Chaput had been invited as speaker. His remarks were reported in the papers on the following day, and the C.B.C. thought them a current news item which was of interest and concern for the general public. Consequently, as one of the media of information, the C.B.C. mentioned them in its regular news broadcast.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question.
Inquiries of the Ministry
Can the minister tell this house, following the passage by the security council of the United Nations of a resolution on employing a force to maintain peace on the island of Cyprus, whether the secretary general communicated with the Canadian government in view of asking that it contribute to that force, and, if not or even if so, whether this resolution is in agreement with the conditions put by the Canadian government?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is doubtless aware, the security council of the United Nations passed a resolution this morning with regard to Cyprus. Consultations are now being held between the secretary general of the United Nations and our ambassador to the United Nations.
For the time being, I have nothing to add.


Paul Raymond Martineau: A supplementary question. Could the minister tell us whether the consultations have anything to do with the sending of Canadian troops to Cyprus?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: The consultations will bear not only on the requirements of Canada but also on other circumstances and considerations which we feel must be examined, before a decision is taken.



EDUCATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.
Could he tell us whether he has received the joint note which the students of the University of Sherbrooke, of Laval University and of the University of Montreal, the Quebec Classical College students federation and the student press handed to the newspapers yesterday to express their objection to the establishment of a federal student loan fund?


Lester Bowles Pearson: To my knowledge, I have not received it this morning but I will be glad to look into the matter.


Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Prime Minister a supplementary question about this.
Does he intend to take appropriate action concerning that note and to what effect, if any?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Lester Bowles Pearson: I had better have a look at the note first, Mr. Speaker.



CONSENT FOR TABLING OF DOCUMENTS IN N.B. LEGISLATURE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. J. Flemming (Vicioria-Carleton):: I have a question for the Prime Minister. Has the government of Canada received the request of the government of New Brunswick for consent to the tabling in the New Brunswick legislature of documents and correspondence exchanged between them relative to the proposed Mactaquac power project, also the $20 million grant of the Atlantic development board in connection therewith?


Lester Bowles Pearson: There was some discussion between the two governments as a result of which the documents were tabled this afternoon.


Hugh John Flemming: Do I
take it that the consent of the government of Canada has been given to tabling the documents in the New Brunswick legislature?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, in both cases consent was given to tabling them.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerald A. Regan (Halifax):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Has the hon. gentleman received further representations with reference to storm losses suffered by fishermen in Halifax county and elsewhere last fall?


Some hon. Members:: Order paper.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I have received representations from various members on both sides of the house as well as from the municipality of Halifax. Only last week I received a telegram from the united maritime fishermen's association asking for federal assistance in connection with the damage done by hurricane Ginny last fall.


John B. Stewart: What response does the minister intend to make to these requests?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I did reply to the telegram from the united maritime fishermen's association and on the same day I wrote to the provincial ministers of fisheries for the provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince

Edward Island indicating that we are prepared to assist with any necessary surveys, but that the federal government does not deal directly with the consequences of damage or hardship suffered by individuals or groups. I stated that on previous occasions when such damage had reached disaster proportions arrangements had been made between the federal government and the provincial governments concerned to share the cost of rehabilitation. I may say we are prepared to consider any justified claim to this effect.



CANADIAN PARTICIPATION IN EUROPEAN CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Roberi Beaule (Quebec Easi):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries?
Can the minister tell the house whether the government has been invited to attend the recent European conference on fisheries?
Kon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):
Mr. Speaker, may I take this question as notice in order to give a more detailed answer?



REPORTED USE OF HELICOPTERS IN KILLING SEALS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Conception):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Will the minister please advise the house whether he is aware that Canadian helicopters have been chartered by a firm in Hamburg, Germany, to participate in the seal fishery off the east coast of Canada this year; and is he aware that the killing of seals started off Amherst island last Saturday? Also, would the minister please advise the house whether protection is being given to seals while their young are being born? I have been told that helicopters are flying over the herd of seals located off Amherst island.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, while I am not aware that Canadian helicopters have been chartered by a firm in Hamburg, Germany to participate in the seal fishery off the east coast of Canada, I might say that it is not contrary to the practice or regulations for foreign countries to engage in the killing of seals off the east coast of Canada.
With reference to the second part of the question, I must say that it is not contrary to the regulations for local residents to kill seals before the season's opening dates of March 5 and March 10 for the gulf of St. Lawrence and the east coast of Newfoundland respectively, provided they are on foot

or are using small boats or dories. The opening dates apply to persons using boats over 40 feet in length and those using aeroplanes or helicopters.
With reference to the last part of the hon. member's question, I wish to state that we are well aware of the need for conservation and this matter will be discussed in detail- as I said earlier in this house-at the next meeting of the international north Atlantic fisheries commission to be held next summer. We are increasing our efforts, however, to obtain more effective protection and conservation measures and the whole situation is under very active review.


James Roy Tucker: Will the minister please check and find out whether my statement is correct, that the seals are being killed not by landsmen but by sealers who are operating from helicopters?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, when such reports reached our department last Saturday we immediately sent a survey group by air to the area. The report we have from them is that the killing was done by local residents.


Erik Nielsen: I have a supplementary question to ask the Minister of Transport, Mr. Speaker. Since the air transport board regulations may be involved here, I wonder if the minister can advise the house whether his officials have taken any action to prevent such operations, which I understand are contrary to the A.T.B. regulations.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, of course I have had no notice of this question, and I would not be able to answer it without notice.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melforf-Tisdale):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour, but in his absence perhaps I could address it to the leader of the house. I should like to ask the hon. gentleman whether consideration could be given to having the Gill report on unemployment insurance directed to a special committee so that the recommendations of the report may be implemented as soon as possible by parliament.


Guy Favreau: Perhaps the hon. gentleman would allow me to take this question as notice on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Labour.
20220-36i
Inquiries of the Ministry WORLD FAIR



INVITATION TO THE VATICAN TO PARTICIPATE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Jolieile-L'Assomption-Monfcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.
Is it the intention of the Canadian government to recognize the state of the Vatican and afterwards to invite them to take part in. the world fair of 1967?


Lester Bowles Pearson: This question has been asked on numerous occasions, and I give the same answer now.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Does the Canadian government intend to invite the state of the Vatican to take part in the world fair of 1967?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have nothing to add to what was said on this matter, I think yesterday.



PULPWOOD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Has the attention of the minister been drawn to a press item which appeared in last night's Ottawa Journal concerning an announcement made by the Quebec minister of forestry to the Beauce river Liberal association to the effect that lumber cut in Quebec would not be allowed to be sold in other provinces? Would the minister consult with his officials as to the validity of any such ban, and ascertain in particular whether it is a violation of section 121 of the British North America Act, which enjoins the free flow of articles of commerce among all the provinces.


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for bringing the matter to my attention. I have not read the article to which he refers, but I shall be pleased to discuss this matter with my officials.



SOUTH AFRICA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Cameron) asked me a question and I

Inquiries of the Ministry answered the first part. I did not hear the second part of his question. I thought it was a matter that was beyond my comprehension, and therefore turned it over to my hon. friend the Secretary of State for External Affairs. On reading the question I now understand that it refers to GATT, and the answer to his question is no.


Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: May I ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister tell us how this conforms with the undertaking under the GATT agreement that we will not discriminate between nations in our trade? This preference is one that was given to commonwealth countries, among whom South Africa is no longer numbered.


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, the rule under the GATT is that no new preferences shall be extended, and since this was a continuation of an existing preference it was not contrary to the GATT.


Colin Cameron: May I ask another supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. How can it be a continuing preference when the nation to which it was previously given no longer exists, because the republic of South Africa is not the dominion of South Africa which existed before?


Mitchell William Sharp: With all due deference to the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, who I know is a great expert on these matters, I am informed by my officials that this is not contrary to the GATT; that this is not the extension of a new preference.



COMBINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, last week the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) asked whether consideration had been completed and a decision arrived at with regard to the request of the distributive trades advisory committee contained in their brief, that the government set up a marketing advisory council and repeal section 34 of the Combines Investigation Act. I am pleased to answer that the briefs received from the distributive trades advisory committee are under careful study in the departments concerned. However, as the former minister of justice advised the house on December 17, 1963, the committee has indicated its intention to present a further brief. Arrangements are now being made for a further meeting, at which I expect to receive this

brief. Any decision relating to an amendment of the legislation will be made known in due course.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, on Monday, March 2, the hon. member for Northwest Territories asked a question pertaining to the transfer of jurisdiction over Indians to the provinces. I believe I can answer this question today by stating that as there has been no discussion with any province regarding the transfer of jurisdiction over Indians, the government has not found it necessary to adopt a firm position with regard to the matter. Should discussion be required at some future date, the policy of the government will be determined at that time and will take into consideration its responsibility for Indians and the need for recognizing the traditional rights of the Indians established by treaty or otherwise.


Mr. Gene Rheaume (Northwest Territories):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration advise the house, then, just who will be looking after the affairs of the Indian people in the northern part of Quebec once the jurisdiction over Eskimos is transferred to the province of Quebec.


René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, the federal government will keep the responsibility and jurisdiction over Indians in northern Quebec.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. P. Antoine Belanger (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Has he received a request from the St. Lawrence river pilot federation for the construction of a federal naval school in Quebec? If so, can he tell the house whether he has dealt with that request?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I will take note of the hon. gentleman's question and will answer it tomorrow, if I can.



CANADA COUNCIL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State. Does he intend to act on the recent brief of the Canada council asking for $30 million for the next three years?
Moreover, could he tell the house whether it is a fact that for the government, the national research council is more important than the Canada council?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I had the privilege to meet a delegation of the Canada council which made the request referred to by the hon. member, involving an amount of $10 million for each of the next three years.
I was very glad to be able to discuss the problems faced by the Canada council, but I have not yet had the opportunity to submit to my colleagues their recommendations and proposals.


Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question in order to clear up a point referred to by the Secretary of State. In view of the fact that the Secretary of State mentioned $10 million, would it be $10 million a year or a total of $30 million?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, it would be a total of $30 million-



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Danforlh (Kent, Onl.):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Revenue. This question is based on numerous complaints being received daily from farmers and small businessmen to the effect that certain individuals, deliberately giving the impression that they are government income tax inspectors but without saying so, are gaining access to otherwise confidential information and records for the sole purpose of promoting their own private business. Will the minister use his good office to determine the extent of this misrepresentation in southwestern Ontario and inform the public how bona fide government tax inspectors may be quickly identified?


John Richard Garland: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. I shall try to be
Inquiries of the Ministry brief in my reply, but I feel that certain detail is necessary and I hope it will be helpful.
The taxation division of my department is aware that, from time to time, various commercial organizations have approached farmers and small businessmen with the object of selling them some kind of bookkeeping or accounting services, and have given the impression either that they were employees of the taxation division or were somehow connected therewith. As the hon. member has indicated, however, they usually do this by implication rather than by making deliberate misstatements of fact.
Each employee of the taxation division who is authorized to audit or examine books and records is supplied with a numbered identification card bearing his name, photograph and signature on which card appears the facsimile signature of Mr. J. Gear McEntyre, deputy minister of national revenue for taxation. In the upper left hand corner of each card appears the crest of Canada and immediately beside it the words "Department of National Revenue, taxation division". These cards are printed in English on one side and French on the reverse.
Since I understand that some of the persons to whom the hon. member has referred also carry identification cards bearing their photograph and signature, I would suggest that any taxpayer who has such a card presented to him examine it carefully to ensure that it is an official one.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: supplementary question. Would the minister consider making a press release in this regard so that everyone can be made aware of these facts?


John Richard Garland: I would be glad to take note of that suggestion.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Defence. Pending the layoffs at the Point Edward naval base, will the minister assure the house and the workers at the naval base that there will be no change in the classification in order to provide certain positions to allow for retention over and above those who qualify for classification?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice.

Inquiries of the Ministry CANADIAN CONFEDERATION



REQUEST FOR PRINTING OF PRE-CONFEDERATION DEBATES IN NOVA SCOTIA AND NEW BRUNSWICK

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gerald Augustine Regan: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. In view of the fact that the queen's printer has for many years printed and published a volume entitled "Parliamentary Debates on Confederation of British North American provinces" which contains only the pre-confederation debates of the legislature made up of upper and lower Canada, would the minister take the necessary steps to end this long standing discrimination against the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick by having the pre-confederation debates that took place in the legislatures of those other two original partners of confederation also printed in book form?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I shall be very pleased to do so.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Erik Nielsen: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister of northern affairs which he may wish to take as notice in order to enable him to reply fully to the house. Since he has announced as government policy outside this house the continuation of the development roads policy of the previous government, I wonder whether he would make a few statements to the house, particularly regarding a 400 mile road to be constructed in the Yukon through to the Arctic coast?


Arthur Laing: I should like to take that question as notice.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the hon. member for York Centre in his capacity as chief government whip, and ask him whether this rash of backbencher questions is an example of the close relationship existing between the grass and the brass.



COLUMBIA RIVER


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, March 3, consideration of the motion of Mr. Martin (Essex East):
That the treaty between Canada and the United States of America relating to co-operative development of the water resources of the Columbia river basin, signed at Washington on January 17, 1961, together with the protocol containing modifications and clarifications to the treaty annexed to an exchange of notes between the governments of Canada and the United States signed on January 22, 1964, be referred to the standing committee on external affairs.
Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, to continue my remarks, there are several points which have been laboured by the critics of the Columbia river treaty, particularly by certain members of the New Democratic party. It is to me most disturbing, yes, tragic, to hear the leader of that party say that he will do everything within his power to block the passage of the protocol, and the treaty's ratification. May I say to the hon. member that his task will be as formidable as would be that of turning back the hands of time.
The people of Canada, particularly in British Columbia, of the Kootenay and the Columbia areas, yes even of Kootenay West and Burnaby-Coquitlam, are intelligent enough to recognize a bargain when they see one, and what is for their own benefit. To say that it really is a betrayal of Canadian interest is foolish prattle and certainly something which is not true. It is to be noted, among several points which I think are important enough to be brought up here, that not one kilowatt of actual power generated in Canada is to be exported to the United States. The only power to be sold is that power which will be generated in the United States as a result of dams built in Canada, and this extra power will be shared according to the terms of the treaty. This is actually the sale of a service. It is not the export, and not the sale of power.
A great deal has been said about depleting the water supply of the west which might ultimately be used for purposes of irrigation on the prairies. As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, the headwaters of most of these rivers that we are talking about begin on the western border of my constituency. I happen to know all of these rivers well, and that the real source of the supply of water for the prairies, should it ever be needed, as far as the economic aspect is concerned, is not the Columbia. It is the Clearwater; it is the Brazeau; it is the Red Deer, it is even the Athabaska; because to divert

some of the waters of these rivers for irrigation purposes on to the prairies would be far cheaper than to divert the waters of the Columbia, and certainly the supply is such that there is no question as to the quantity of water.
There is another aspect of this that is important. As a result of the sale of downstream benefits there will be money sufficient to pay for the construction of the entire project within Canada. How much more would the cost of this project be to the taxpayers of Canada if we were to try to finance it ourselves? Actually it would be more than double the cost of the initial construction, because the way we finance such public service today, the cost of the money is far more than the cost of the actual project itself. So, I maintain and I think it is a very logical conclusion that the benefit of this Columbia river project is not just in terms of dollars, not just in terms of kilowatt hours of power, but it represents long term benefits which must be included if we are to look at the over-all picture.
There has been talk about the uncertainty of the cost of these projects. I would just remind hon. members of this house that the British Columbia government has already spent some $10 million in feasibility surveys and essential initial preparation. So when you look at it from these different aspects you see that in addition to the dollars and cents benefits that were outlined yesterday by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, there are many other additional benefits which enter into the picture and which make this, as far as any business proposition is concerned, a mighty good bargain.
I do not want to talk very much longer on this treaty, least of all do I want to delve into matters of great technical detail when the very motion before the house is to refer such matters to their proper committee where witnesses can be examined and all sides of the story told. Everyone in this house knows perfectly well that it is possible to put up a plausible story to cover either side one may take on this question. The government and official opposition have in fact had the unusual opportunity to argue on both sides of the question and I am sure they realize this full well.
The only place we are going to get the answers we need is in the committee, and technical matters have little place in discussions on the floor of the house at this time. The only technical matters that are perfectly obvious to me are, first, that while politicians talk, the Columbia river continues to flow into the Pacific ocean, without its resources being put to full use by anyone. Second, that
Columbia River Treaty while politicians talk, the time approaches more and more closely when the development of nuclear power will, as far at least as the United States is concerned, make the potential of this whole development entirely obsolete. We do not have time to wait. Third, that sale of downstream benefits generated within reach of markets in the United States is a lot more practical business than constructing a new high cost and high voltage transmission line 350 miles across some of the most rugged terrain on this continent to the B.C. lower mainland area, where there might be a market. Besides the Peace project, there are plenty of other untapped hydro resources within British Columbia which might be developed to satisfy the lower mainland market.
I think we neglect to understand that the power that is generated in the United States, the additional power as a result of the construction of these dams in Canada, is 350 miles across the heart of the Rocky mountains from any market within Canada. The construction of the necessary transmission lines across this terrain would be tremendous. Certainly this adds weight to the fact that when we are selling our downstream benefits we are doing something that is thoroughly and completely a good business proposition.
I was thoroughly perturbed at the implications I read into the speech of the leader of the New Democratic party, that because our friends in the United States profit from this bargain it cannot be a good thing for Canada. I suppose one can expect a socialist to have a mental block on the subject of profit, but the fact remains that such an argument is not only fallacious but it is mischievous, because it sows discord between two neighbours who should be friendly partners in developing this great enterprise. Any two persons who make a bargain do so only because each expects to profit from it. The better the bargain the more the profit that comes to each side.
I am very glad to know of the benefits that the United States will receive by way of power generation and particularly because of flood control as a result of this new arrangement. If it adds to the industrial prosperity of that nation, I am glad to know it. Just because United States benefits should not blind us to the fact that we benefit too. I am convinced that we have struck a good bargain, that we are getting the better of the deal, one which will benefit Canada in many ways other than just according to the specific terms of the treaty.
We are never going to build Canada by this niggardly approach that would rather make our own country poorer than allow any of our friends to gain a benefit from our own riches and good fortune. This is the dog in

Columbia River Treaty the manger attitude which holds Canada back both in its regional aspects and its international aspects. We are not going to make a great nation in Canada by curbing our imagination and enterprise and scrupulously rationing our existing poverty.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Under a Liberal government.


Robert Norman Thompson: There is wealth for all in this country if we will set ourselves to work with a will to develop it. I commend all who have had the foresight, imagination and energy to bring this project to its present stage and I assure them that this party will give them the utmost help in having the treaty finally approved in the most advantageous form to Canada by the present parliament in this present session.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the Columbia river treaty and the protocol are of much greater concern to the province of British Columbia than to the parliament of Canada.
Indeed, we of eastern Canada learned about British Columbia in our geography books many years ago, but we are much more familiar with the St. Lawrence river which flows from the great lakes through our province. Anyhow, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few remarks on that treaty which, I feel, is most important for the development of natural resources in British Columbia.
In the white paper that was submitted to us a few days ago on the Columbia river treaty, I find this on page 128:
Background paper on the Columbia river treaty, 22 January 1964.
This is the background of this famous treaty:
In January 1961, the governments ot Canada and the United States signed the Columbia river treaty which envisaged co-operative development of the river on both sides of the border. The treaty was ratified shortly afterward by the United States congress. In Canada, however, ratification has not yet taken place.
This treaty was signed by the prime minister in 1961, when the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) was prime minister of Canada.
In 1962, the Columbia river treaty was again brought up and also in 1963. There was, however, an aspect which had been forgotten by the Conservatives and which is, to my mind, the most important one, an essential one, and that is consultation with the province of British Columbia, so as to know how its prerogatives and autonomy would be safeguarded by any agreement or treaty that would be concluded between the United States and Canada.
The Conservative party has failed to recognize provincial autonomy, so much so that we have witnessed here, in this house, an imbroglio between the federal Conservative government and the government of Premier Bennett of British Columbia. In short, the Canadian government has taken it upon itself to conclude an agreement with the United States without even consulting with the province of British Columbia.
Last evening we heard an hon. member of the Conservative party attack this treaty. I feel that, in considering the ratification of this treaty, we should avoid playing politics.
I believe that this treaty protects fully and completely the rights of the province of British Columbia, since it is responsible for all the conditions, motives, reasons and other factors that make it possible to establish a better understanding between the provinces and Canada, while enabling Canada to reach an agreement with the United States.
In this I would not forgive myself if I did not heartily congratulate the premier of British Columbia, Mr. Bennett, for the position he took two years ago against the Conservative government, for the Conservative party did not recognize the autonomy of the province, its prerogatives and its rights in connection with the Columbia river.
Now, this treaty, Mr. Speaker, seems to arouse political interest within certain groups. In my opinion we should, as I said previously, put aside any question of political partisanship.
The Tories will try to suggest they could have settled the question in a more advantageous way, whereas we have proof that the present treaty is more advantageous than the one signed in 1961 by the government of the day.
Mr. Speaker, attempts will surely be made in British Columbia, especially among the socialists, including those in this house, to play politics with this treaty, by having the people of British Columbia believe that the economy of their province will be disrupted and, as the leader of the socialist party said last night, that the present federal government signed that treaty with British Columbia and the United States to satisfy the vanity of British Columbia's premier, Mr. Bennett.
It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that is an awful statement for the leader of the socialist party to make. I regret the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Douglas) is not here now, but I would remind him that the premier of British Columbia has done more in his province, within confederation, than the former premier of Saskatchewan could do for his province during 17 years, as far as economic growth and progress are concerned.

It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the treaty is not perfect and that it could be improved. However, I see no reason why it should not be approved since the natural resources in question are those of British Columbia.
In fact, when Ontario decides to export power to the United States, the Conservative government of that province insists on carrying out its business alone.
When Quebec exports iron ore from the Ungava to the United States the government of that province wishes to have a free hand, and now the situation is the same for the government of British Columbia whose efforts are seconded by the federal government.
Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) deserves nothing but congratulations at this time for the fine work he did in connection with the treaty.
I wish to point out that I am not a Liberal; far from it, I fight the Liberals. On the other hand, I am ready to acknowledge the efforts of the minister. The fact that British Columbia has a Social Credit government was no concern of his; he only saw in that treaty a measure that would contribute to the progress of British Columbia and Canada in general. He only saw the development of a potential likely to bring about an economic development such as British Columbia has never known in the past and will never enjoy in the future, thanks precisely to the harnessing of the Columbia river as a result of the treaty between British Columbia, Canada and the United States.
Mr. Speaker, there has been reference also to the financial angle, and it was said that the Canadian government was selling for a mess of pottage, its birthrights regarding the Columbia river. I do not believe that it is the only reason. On the contrary, I see in the Columbia river development tremendous opportunities for industrial development and for new industries in British Columbia.
We have received, from everywhere, comments, letters and telegrams. Some letters approved of the treaty, others were against it. However, everyone agrees on the need to really develop one's country, one's province.
Mr. Speaker, British Columbia will-


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: There are many Liberals and Conservatives opposed to this treaty.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I notice that the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) wants to take part in the debate.
I have no doubt that he will do so tomorrow or in the days that follow. I understand very well that to protect his party in British Columbia he should feel it necessary to attack and discredit as much as possible the premier
Columbia River Treaty and the Social Credit government of British Columbia which has done better than any socialist government in the world.
Mr. Speaker, we feel that this treaty should be ratified as soon as possible and, I say it again, without any political partisanship. I would be the first to fight against any expropriation or giving away of any natural resource which belongs to a Canadian province in its own right, in short to the whole of Canada, such as the Columbia river in British Columbia.
The British Columbia premier, Mr. Bennett, has given proof of his ability in the past, and the socialists of that province know it. They recognize that he has given his province a sound and progressive administration and that he has always been willing to cooperate with federal authorities and those of other provinces. When negotiations started, the Conservative government made every attempt to transact with the United States, while overlooking the province and the provincial government. But the present government did not ignore the provincial authorities and it respected the autonomy of British Columbia. I am confident that the present premier of British Columbia will make of his province one of the finest in Canada. Besides, it is a beautiful province, with a potential likely to result in a development that several provinces may never experience.
British Columbia has tremendous natural resources and the Columbia river is not only a source of revenue for that province, but also a development potential which will enable British Columbia to become industrialized and to make progress in every way.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) stated that if we had to finance that Columbia river project ourselves, it would be a tremendously expensive proposition for Canadian taxpayers. Well, with our present financial system, it is obvious that we would have to tax the Canadian people in order to harness the Columbia river and provide for water storage in that province. But the system advocated by Social Crediters is much more simple. And what we do not understand is why is it that in order to develop a river like the Columbia or any other natural resource in Canada, we have to get permission from foreign financial interests. And I draw the attention of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to our suggestion.
If we have the men, the brains, the engineers, in short, all the materials to carry out the development of the Columbia river, why not use the Bank of Canada to create a credit equal to the potential that we can create with our arms, our brains and our physical efforts?

Chignecto Power Project
The point we cannot admit is that foreigners have to finance the development of our own natural resources or give us their financial approval to do so. In fact, that river should have been developed a long time ago; then we could have exported power and even water to the United States. But, because of a lack of money, we had to back up, go to Washington and beg the financial permission to carry out that project.
Mr. Speaker, other members of our group may have some remarks to make on this debate tomorrow or the next day, but I can assure you that we are very glad that this agreement has been concluded between the Canadian government, the government of British Columbia and the United States. Moreover, I express the wish that this respect for the rights of the provinces will be maintained and will, in the future, be applied to every Canadian province and that provincial governments will be considered in our internal as well as in our external relations.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order, it being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business, as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.



CHIGNECTO PROJECT


Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of the immediate development of the Chignecto complex through the harnessing of the bay of Fundy tides for power purposes.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it seems appropriate that a notice of motion regarding the harnessing of the bay of Fundy tides should be debated at this juncture of the session, since we have before us today the treaty between Canada and the United States in connection with the development of the Columbia river from a power point of view. At the same time, we learned from the minister of northern affairs today that studies have been completed in connection with the Saint John river in New Brunswick and the Nelson river in Manitoba.
From a maritime point of view, the harnessing of the bay of Fundy tides is equivalent to the development of the Columbia river. It would produce an even greater amount of electrical energy if its full potential were exploited, and at a comparable mill rate. I intend to go into greater detail later in my speech on both of these aspects.
The unemployment statistics for the Atlantic provinces as of January 18, 1964, are the
[Mr. CaouetteJ
best indicator, if one is needed by the present government, that drastic measures must be adopted, measures of far more significance than any that have transpired in this regard since April 8, 1963.
Of the 466,000 individuals unemployed in Canada as of January 18, 1964, 72,000 were located in the Atlantic provinces, or 12.6 per cent of the labour force in that area. This is to be compared with the national level of 7 per cent or the rate in the prairies of 4.7 per cent and in Ontario of 4.9 per cent.
If further evidence is required of the crying need for bold and imaginative measures- terms which were favourites of the present Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) when in opposition-it is supplied by a comparison of the average per capita income in the maritimes as compared with that in other parts of Canada. In Nova Scotia for the year 1962 it was $1,245, in New Brunswick, $1,107 and in Prince Edward Island, $1,009 as compared with a national average of close to $2,000.
The provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick have vast wealth in natural resources. Nova Scotia has rich deposits of salt, gypsum and coal in great quantities. It has more than 10 million acres of forest land and 10 billion cubic feet of merchantable timber. New Brunswick has over 15 million acres of forest land and 17 billion cubic feet of merchantable timber. It has been recommended that the annual utilization of forest products could, and should, be doubled. New Brunswick also has large mineral deposits, some of which are in the development stage while others remain underdeveloped. The maritimes region should, and could, be the resource base for Britain and Europe and, with cheap and abundant power, could develop in processed products an important export trade served by its ports on a year round basis.
I was pleased to hear the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill) say today, in reply to a question I posed, that an investigation from an engineering point of view is being undertaken by Foundation Engineering and would be completed in May. Unfortunately, this investigation appears to be confined to test borings which would provide little or no information pertaining to the earlier report presented to the government of the day relating to cost of construction and cost of power.
We have learned in recent days of further action taken by the government of the United States in connection with the development of Passamaquoddy bay from a power point of view. The cost of this project would be in the vicinity of $1 billion, a sum three times larger than that estimated as the cost of installing 50 units at both Shepody bay and Cumberland basin. I stated earlier in my

remarks that the power potential and mill rate for the Chignecto development compared favourably with the Columbia river development.
I should now like to read the report to the Chignecto canal committee by the Hon. Louis J. Robichaud, premier of the province of New Brunswick, on March 10, 1962. Premier Robichaud had this to say:
In December, 1961, the New Brunswick government retained the three highly qualified consulting firms H. G. Acres and Co. Ltd., Foundation of Canada Engineering Corporation Ltd., and LaSalle Hydraulic Laboratory Limited to prepare a joint preliminary report on the tidal power potential in the bay of Fundy.
Tlie highest tidal ranges in the world are known to exist at the head of the bay of Fundy. The following factors influenced the government of New Brunswick in having a preliminary study made of the tidal power potential in this area.
(1)	The rapidly increasing demand for electric power in the maritime provinces,
(2)	the increasing awareness of the beneficial effects which can accrue from interconnection of transmission systems on a provincial, national and international scale,
(3)	the stimulating effect which the availability of a large block of low-priced electrical energy would have on the expansion of primary industry in the region,
(4)	the possible effects which the development of tidal power at the head of the bay of Fundy might have on the Chignecto canal,
(5)	and the fact that development of the bulb turbine has improved the economics of tidal power.
The terms of reference to the consultants were limited to a re-examination of available information and engineering data and an assessment of tidal power feasibility in the light of present and future conditions. Special mention was made in the terms of reference to the Shepody-Cumberland tidal power sites.
In assessing the economics of the tidal power, three rates of interest were to be used:
(1)	2i per cent, which is the United States government interest rate for such projects;
(2)	5 per cent, which was approximately the current federal long term rate of interest;
(3)	3j per cent, which was the approximate average long term federal rate of interest for the period 1930 to 1960.
The consulting firms were also asked to comment on the feasibility of a full scale engineering study of tidal power at the head of the bay of Fundy, and to include an estimate of the probable cost of such studies.
On January 15, the government of New Brunswick received the joint preliminary report entitled, "Appraisal of Tidal Power in the Bay of Fundy." I have pleasure in presenting a copy of this report to the Chignecto canal committee.
Following are the highlights of the report:
(1)	In appraising the possibilities of tidal power in the bay of Fundy, it was recognized that available site data was limited, and that additional field information must be obtained before detailed studies could be undertaken. The consultants advise, however, that they used generous contingency allowances and that conservative assumptions have been made in estimating the value of power and energy output obtainable.
(2)	Of the various possibilities for tidal power in the upper reaches of the Bay of Fundy, development of the Minas basin will be an undertaking of unprecedented magnitude and enormous energy potential. For example, if only one tenth of the
Chignecto Power Project
theoretical output could be utilized, it would represent some 15 million kilowatt hours per year of electrical energy. Of greater importance at the present time are the Shepody bay-Cumberland basin sites which offer a more immediate prospect of economic development.
(3)	Because of limited available information on foundation conditions, an arbitrary limitation of 50-9,000 kilowatt units was placed on each of the Cumberland and Shepody sites. The report is therefore based upon a total installation of 900.000 kw which available foundation data shows to be feasible. The installation might be increased to 200-9,000 kw units each if subsequent foundation exploration proved adequate. This means that as much as 3,600,000 kw might be installed following further engineering studies.
(4)	The preliminary estimate of capital cost for the total installation of 900,000 kw (450,000 kw each at the outlet of Shepody and Cumberland basin) amounts to $325,000,000, excluding interest during construction.
(5)	The preliminary studies show that 5.5 billion kwh per year could be generated from the 900,000 kw of installed capacity at the Cumberland-Shepody sites. More detailed system and hydraulic studies may result in a much larger output figure.
(6)	It was estimated that a minimum of 10 years would be required for preliminary exploration, design and construction of the Shepody-Cum-berland basin project. It was further estimated that at the present rate of load growth, the full output could be absorbed by New Brunswick and Nova Scotia within a five year period, provided that strong transmission interconnections with neighbouring utility systems are developed for power and energy interchange. Any industrial development in excess of past trends will allow the full output to be utilized at an even faster rate.
(7)	Using the criteria of interest rates as stated in the terms of reference, and using for depreciation purposes and assumed economic life of 50 years and one of 75 years, then the following are the estimated on-site energy costs from the Shepody-Cumberland tidal power development:
Assumed economic life-50 years: Shepody bay, 2h per cent interest rate, mills per kilowatt hour, 3.38; 35 per cent, 4.02; 5 per cent, 5.13.
Cumberland basin, 3.09 at 25 per cent; 3 66 at 35 per cent; 4.67 at 5 per cent.
Combined Shepody-Cumberland, 25 per cent interest rate, 3.23: 35 per cent interest rate, 3.84*
5 per cent interest rate, 4.90.
Assumed economic life-75 years: Shepody bay 25 per cent interest rate, 2.99; 35 per cent interest rate, 3.68; 5 per cent interest rate, 4.88.
Cumberland basin, 25 per cent interest rate, 2 74' 35 per cent interest rate, 3.36; 5 per cent interest rate, 4.44.
Combined Shepody-Cumberland, 25 per cent interest rate, 2.87; 35 per cent interest rate, 3 525 per cent interest rate, 4.66.
The report states that it is not the intention to imply that these figures represent the lowest production costs which can be achieved. There is in fact, reason to believe that they could be reduced following more detailed study and economic analysis.
(8)	The consultants state that the development of the Shepody-Cumberland tidal sites would be feasible and would have a considerable impact on the economy of the maritime provinces. The development would be a continuing source of electrical energy, the cost of which would remain stable for a long period of time. It should be noted that conventional hydro developments and thermal generating plants will be needed in the maritimes as well as the tidal potential at the head of the bay of Fundy. Based upon a rate of growth similar to that of the past 20 years, it is

Chignecto Power Project
estimated that Nova Scotia and New Brunswick will require some 16.9 billion kilowatt hours of electrical energy by the year 1980. Indications are that with the availability of lower cost energy in large quantities, the rate of economic development and energy consumption will be increased.
(9)	For a number of years we have been interested in the improved transportation facilities for the maritime provinces which would result from the construction of the Chignecto canal. The joint preliminary report from the three consulting firms states that the construction of a dam across the entrance to the Cumberland basin, required for the development of tidal power and for keeping the water in this basin at a higher level, would have a beneficial effect on the cost and operation of the approach to the Chignecto canal by reducing the initial cost of dredging, as well as its future maintenance costs. It would also reduce the tidal currents now prevailing in the Cumberland basin, thus improving the navigation.
In answering a part of the terms of reference given to the three consulting firms, they state the following:
"It is considered that further study of the various sites for tidal power development at the head of the bay of Fundy, and in particular, the Shepody bay and Cumberland basin sites, is justified. It is therefore recommended that studies and investigation be carried out as outlined. The costs given for each item should be regarded as an estimate:
Phase I
Field surveys, including foundation borings, preliminary engineering design, and system studies, $573,000.
Phase II
Model studies, hydraulic civil and electrical design including a detailed estimate of capital cost and preliminary construction schedule, $1,425,000.
Total studies and survey, $2 million."
I am pleased to present this report to the Chignecto canal committee. I would appreciate it if you would give it careful consideration because I believe that it provides the technical background upon which more detailed studies and planning may be developed and around which the economy of the Atlantic region may be transformed.
Mr. Speaker, that, as I said, is a report given to the Chignecto canal committee by the premier of the province of New Brunswick. As all members of this house know, the premier of the province of New Brunswick is a Liberal, as is the government of the day in Ottawa. I recommend to the government his conclusions from this study and urge them to take immediate steps to speed up the investigations being carried out into the potential of the Chignecto complex, in the hope that they will find the answer to the problem of the Atlantic area, a problem of which we are all aware, a problem we are all endeavouring to solve. I hope that upon the conclusion of their investigations into this very important project we will find a positive step which can be taken for the construction of the dam that will revitalize the economy of the Atlantic area.


Gerald Augustine Regan: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member permit a question?


Robert Carman Coates: Mr. Speaker, in recent days I have noted that the hon. member usually makes speeches when he asks questions. He has the opportunity to make a speech on this very important matter, and I would suggest that he do that.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. John Mullally (Kings):: Mr. Speaker, I wish first of all to commend the hon. member who has just introduced this resolution. This matter has been one of great concern and discussion over many years in the maritime provinces. I know it is of very great interest to his particular area and I think this interest is shared by other parts of Atlantic Canada. Like any other project that will benefit the Atlantic area, I am sure that those in this house, such as myself, who represent areas in the Atlantic provinces will for the most part support the general intention of this motion and the project, although we have some reservations about the feasibility and many other practical aspects of the proposed development. Until further studies are completed I find it difficult to make a complete decision or pass judgment on the undertaking.
There is however, Mr. Speaker, one important reservation that I wish to make personally as far as supporting the motion is concerned. I would be very strongly opposed to any action on the Chignecto project that would interefere with or delay in any way the construction of the Northumberland causeway connecting Prince Edward Island and the mainland of Canada at a point in New Brunswick. It is my opinion-and I am sure it is shared by many hon. members in the house; by all islanders, of course, and many other people in the Atlantic provinces-that there is a great urgency and need for the construction of the causeway and that this should be undertaken before any other major developments of a similar nature in the Atlantic area.
Having made the position clear, Mr. Speaker, that the Prince Edward Island causeway must be given top priority in every consideration, we are certainly not opposed to anything that would benefit the Atlantic provinces; and I am sure that the Chignecto development, if and when it is found feasible, will be of very real benefit to nearly all that area. However, I feel that because of the more urgent need and the commitments which have already been given, the causeway should receive top priority. On the day on which this house dissolved before the election in 1962 the prime minister of the day, the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), announced that the Northumberland causeway would be built.

In fact, he elaborated on this to a considerable extent, to indicate the length of time it would take to construct the causeway, the number of men required and the estimated cost involved. This was a definite commitment by the prime minister of that time and it was accepted as such without reservation. The present government has confirmed this commitment, and as soon as the studies are completed, which we hope will be very soon, we would expect this project to get under way. As I say, Mr. Speaker, we would be strongly opposed to any other development which would interfere with that undertaking in any way, and we cannot overlook the possibility that proceeding with Chignecto would interfere substantially with construction of the causeway.
The hon. member's motion for the development of the Chignecto complex reads in this way:
That...the government should give consideration to the advisability of immediate development of the Chignecto complex through the harnessing of the bay of Fundy tides for power purposes.
I believe that this motion for the immediate development of the Chignecto complex is probably premature in view of the fact that detailed studies have not been completed with regard to the feasibility of such a project.
The preliminary report made to the government of New Brunswick, which the hon. member quoted extensively, is entitled "Appraisal of the tidal power of the bay of Fundy". The number one highlight of the report reads as follows:
In appraising the possibilities of tidal power in the bay of Fundy, it was recognized that available site data was limited and that additional field information must be obtained before detailed studies could be undertaken.
Then the report indicates that this information is necessary before detailed studies can be made, and certainly we cannot consider construction of the project until the studies are completed.
In replying this afternoon to question No. 56, the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill) indicated that the final preliminary report would be made on May 31 next. I think that any consideration of this matter should be left until that report is available. Although the motion requests the government to give immediate consideration to the Chignecto development for power purposes, the promoter speaks of the development as the Chignecto complex. I presume he has in mind-and he makes reference to this in his report-a canal, as well as the power aspects of the project. In this connection I believe that, even if we view the project generously, in no way can it be established that there is any justifiable or reasonable relation between the benefits
Chignecto Power Project which would accrue from this undertaking and the costs involved. The costs have been estimated at $140 million. Taking interest on that amount at 5 per cent per annum, and operation and maintenance costs, that would mean an annual total cost of $10 million. The shipping benefits are estimated at $500,000, which would mean a net figure of $9.5 million a year.
It has been suggested that construction of the canal would lead to a large industrial development, but no definite commitment or information as to the nature of this complex has been forthcoming. It has also been suggested that shipping through the proposed canal would mean a considerable saving of shipping time; but when we take into account the time that is lost in passing through 19 miles of canals and locks, it is doubtful whether very much time could actually be saved. There is also the problem of fog which could greatly delay shipping. So I submit it is dubious how much actual shipping time would be saved by using a canal in preference to the present transportation route.
On the power aspects of the project, Mr. Speaker, I think there is the misconception- the report does make some reference to this- that the canal would provide water for power development; that it would assist in some way which the hon. member mentioned. I do not think it would be of very substantial benefit in assisting power development; at least, the water would not be used to produce power.
There is no reason to believe, then, that any great power benefits would be derived from construction of the canal. Studies are presently under way to determine the feasibility of constructing a dam across the bay, and the building of a powerhouse. I believe this is also mentioned in the report which has been read; paragraph 3 has to do with surveying the foundations. The estimated cost is between $350 and $400 million. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that until these studies are completed any consideration of this very worthwhile project should be postponed.
I hope that what I have said has not conveyed the impression that I am opposed to the construction of the Chignecto complex, particularly the power aspects of it. I think very serious consideration should be given to the construction of a canal, but I do not think it will be of any practical benefit. In fact, if anything I think it will be a loss. However, I support, and I know all those who represent areas in the maritime provinces support, this project. We hope the studies under way will prove it is feasible, and that it can be built at reasonable cost. I further hope that after the Northumberland causeway is constructed, construction will begin on the Chignecto complex.

Chignecto Power Project


Hugh John Flemming: Mr. Speaker, the comments which I have to make concerning the motion moved by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) are fairly brief. I appreciate that this motion with regard to this possible construction is something which has been talked about a good deal, both in our developments in the Atlantic provinces and also in this house. I cannot help but recall that another quite important project, the Passamaquoddy development, has been mentioned here recently. There is presently a bill before the U.S. congress which would bring about study and consideration of the Passamaquoddy project. I should like to draw a comparison between the Passamaquoddy and the harnessing of the tides at the upper end of the bay of Fundy, because there is a degree of similarity between them. While I would not say anything against the development of the Passamaquoddy I do think certain advantages are to be derived by Canada from the development of the tides at the upper end of the bay of Fundy which do not exist to the same extent in the case of the Passamaquoddy development.
In the first place, the tides at the upper end of the bay of Fundy are very much higher than at the lower end of the Passamaquoddy. I think it is true to say that there is a rise and fall twice a day of something like 40 feet of water at the upper end of the bay of Fundy, which impounds a tremendous volume of water somewhere. It staggers the imagination to think what might be done if that were harnessed so that there could be a high level reservoir and a low level reservoir, and all the other constructions about which I must confess, not being an engineer, I am unable to enlighten the house. Yet they impress us all with the general idea that there is a great body and volume of power there which might possibly be harnessed to the advantage of this country.
It is very important, as the previous speaker said, that today we should have had the announcement from the Minister of Transport, speaking for the Atlantic development board, that the Foundation of Canada Engineering have been retained to make a survey and to make actual borings and that sort of thing. I am sure that is very interesting and, not only that, but it is very encouraging to all of us who are very much interested in these developments.
I think it might be considered that the operation is under way and I was greatly interested, in listening to the remarks of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) when he read from the prepared report as presented by the premier of New Brunswick in which it was considered that New Brunswick and Nova Scotia could absorb this large
[Mr. Mullally.1
volume of power in a matter of five years. It seems to be difficult to visualize, but nevertheless that could be a possibility, and I suggest that it also brings to mind this fact, that when a development of this nature is carried on and it becomes a reality, and the power becomes available, then it is one of the most impressive and most important protections against inflation that any country could possibly have; because the capital cost has been incurred and has been provided for, and from then on the maintenance is very low. That point might have some bearing when this matter is being considered.
I also find the decision of the government of a few years ago, and the government of today, that any power surplus to our needs might very well be exported, and with some advantage to ourselves, lends itself again to the general idea of the development of the tides in the upper bay of Fundy, because it is only something like 100 miles to the state of Maine border and, presumably, access to a New England grid system, and we are told that they need power and they need it quite badly.
Another advantage of this development in the upper end of the bay of Fundy as compared with Passamaquoddy, is the factor that there is no effect on the fisheries and the fishing industry to be considered in connection with it; and so I am pleased, and I congratulate the hon. member for Cumberland for bringing this matter before the attention of the house.
I am one of those who think that the question of inflation is very important, one which we cannot afford to ignore. It is just as sure as the air we breathe that we are in for a degree of inflation year after year. That has been the history of the past and I have no doubt that it will be the history of the future. This is one way in which protection may be provided against inflation so far as electrical energy costs are concerned, because they have been pretty well frozen at the point of present costs, with money rates as they are now.
So, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing more to. add, except to lend my voice in support of the motion that has been moved and brought to the attention of hon. members, and I have great pleasure in seconding it.


Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, I intend to make only a few general remarks in connection with this motion moved by the hon. member for Cumberland. My remarks will be based first on the very general topic of financing. It would seem to me that when we are talking about these large developments we must be concerned about the financing of any projects of this nature.

I certainly want to go on record as being one who feels that any development anywhere in Canada, whether it be power or any other type of development is certainly something which is most welcome. We believe that power development, of course, is a very important part of life in Canada and the world, and we believe that it is time now for action on any type of development that has to do with waterpower.
We have often heard the expression used that we are heading into a day of atomic energy development, which it is said is going to come into competition with hydro development. One of the reasons that we in the province of British Columbia have facing us in the next eight years, power development the cost of which would run well in excess of a billion dollars-as a matter of fact $1,200,000,000-is because of the fact that we are confronted with a situation in which we must make these developments at the earliest possible date.
We recognize the situation that was referred to by the last speaker, the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Flemming), in that the gradual reduction of the purchasing power of the dollar seems to be something that we cannot escape. Once the hydro development is built and in operation, even if the cost to the consumer can be held over a period of years at the same price, then if we continue dividing the dollar we are not going to have a continual reduction in the cost of that power. I am all in favour of the development of power wherever it can be undertaken in Canada, but I do think there are a few things we should keep in mind in connection with this. First of all, as I have said, there is the question of financing. In the province of British Columbia the B.C. government is prepared to go all the way on the development of the Peace river and also the Columbia river power projects.
We have a motion before us, if I read it correctly, which suggests the immediate development of the Chigneeto complex through the harnessing of the bay of Fundy tides for power purposes, and it suggests to me that the financing is going to be on a Canada-wide basis. I am not sure whether this is true, as I was not here when the hon. member introduced the motion; but if this is the case I think we should have no objection other than this, that it must be a fiscal arrangement between the provinces and the dominion government in which it is well understood by the provincial governments and the federal government that these arrangements are going to be made.
Now, to isolate one part of Canada from another is neither right nor possible. We who are living in British Columbia are in one of
Chigneeto Power Project the most advantageous provinces, as far as making a living is concerned, and as far as progress is concerned, that there is in the whole of the Dominion of Canada.
Where there are provinces and communities not as well off as we are, we certainly recognize that we are all Canadians and that assistance must be forthcoming. But let this be done through the proper channels of negotiation, so that we will know what the charges and the burden on other people are going to be.
The word "inflation" is used quite freely from time to time, but I wonder whether we are using the right word when we do so because, as I have said before, when one considers the purchasing power of the dollar in relation to the hours of work required to buy a particular article, the situation is no different now from what it was 50 years ago. I used this illustration on another occasion. In the late 1800's my father had to work two days in order to be able to buy a pair of hand-sewn cowboy boots. In the cattle country around the Williams lake area today an individual can go and buy a pair of cowboy boots with the proceeds of two days work. There is not too much difference. But to those people who are on fixed incomes the lessening of the purchasing power of the dollar becomes very real. So I think we should possibly coin a new phrase for what I call the dividing of the dollar.
Finally, I want to assure those in the mari-times that I support fully any type of development that can be reasonably undertaken in any part of Canada, including the good provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and the other maritime provinces. I think it is good that we should look at development in Canada on a broad base so that all Canadians can benefit and I have in mind the total development of hydroelectric power. The provision of a national grid from coast to coast so that power can flow one way or the other as need may arise is a development for the not too distant future. With these few remarks I give my assurance to my hon. friends from the maritimes that we are completely in favour of any development we can have in Canada, including the maritimes.


Gerald Augustine Regan: Mr. Speaker,
I am very happy to have the opportunity to participate in the discussion of this notice of motion. For very many years the tides of the Fundy have been a matter of speculation and great interest to people concerned with the generation of electrical power. In the past the tides have been a problem. Indeed, they have created very many economic problems for various areas along both sides of the bay of Fundy. But many have looked forward to the

Chignecto Power Project time when the tides of the Fundy could be harnessed for the benefit of mankind and thus bring power to this region in great quantities. Whether or not this time has yet come is indeed a very good question.
I was somewhat surprised that the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) did not consider to any extent at all the possible repercussions of tidal power development at the present time on the use of coal for the generation of power. While I, like the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Flemming), am not an engineer and therefore not as cognizant of the intricacies of these problems as one would wish to be, nevertheless I would hope that before the government would see fit to go ahead with the development of power from the tides of the Fundy every avenue of research would be explored for the purpose of finding a method of developing power economically through the use of Nova Scotia coal. Indeed, at a time when there is talk in the newspapers of the possibility of the opening of a new coal mine right in the constituency of the hon. member for Cumberland, and at a time when the coal of Cape Breton is not being utilized to the degree it could be,
I think the development of power from coal and a means of making such generation of power more economical should have first priority.
Having said that, I hasten to associate myself with the comments of the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton, that when tidal development is being considered it should be kept in mind that the areas at the head of the bay of Fundy have a very distinct advantage over the Passamaquoddy project, inasmuch as there would be very little effect, if any, upon the fisheries. Because of the high tides and the constant agitation of the water there the fishing industry has never developed nor, indeed, does that area have the potential for fishing that the area at the other end of the bay of Fundy has, which would be affected by the Passamaquoddy project.
I was surprised to find that in considering tidal development at the head of the bay of Fundy the hon. member for Cumberland had an obvious preference for the Shepody bay project, which would lie entirely in New Brunswick and which would appear not to have nearly the potential for tidal power development of the Minas basin. In addition, of course, the Minas basin project would bring great benefit to the Parrsboro area.


Robert Carman Coates: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: The hon. member for Cumberland wishes to raise a question of privilege.
fMr. Regan.)


Robert Carman Coates: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is not deaf, or knows anything about the Chignecto complex, he would know that development is recommended for both Shepody bay and Minas basin at the same time.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. The hon. gentleman is objecting to something which has been said by the hon. member for Halifax. I could not construe that as being a question of privilege.


Robert Carman Coates: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman is misquoting me completely out of context, do you mean to tell me I am supposed to sit here and listen to him?


Malcolm MacInnis: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, are we to take it in this house that the former secretary of state, now Minister of Transport, can direct the activities of the Chair from his seat without even rising?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I heard no statement from the minister. In my view I do not think that the hon. member for Cumberland had a real question of privilege, although I recognize that if he was misquoted there may be a matter to be considered. However, in the decision I made I took no direction from anybody.


Malcolm MacInnis: On the question of privilege I raised, Mr. Speaker-


An hon. Member:: What privilege?


Malcolm MacInnis: -that the Minister of Transport has made a direct statement in respect of the ruling you are about to make, I should like to hear the minister get up and deny that he made such a statement.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I deny it absolutely, sir. I made a casual observation that was not addressed to the Chair and that might have been a little bit rude-almost as rude as the conduct of the hon. gentleman habitually. The only person, I believe, who heard it was the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Flemming). It was a little private joke between us. I suggest to the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Maclnnis) that perhaps if he rose a little less often to interrupt others, we would get on faster with the proceedings of the house.


Malcolm MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, in support of my question of privilege, the Minister of Transport has just now made a statement to the effect that the only person who might have heard him make this remark was the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton. I heard it. He has now cast a reflection upon the point of privilege I have raised with the Chair, and I think it is the Chair's duty to rule as to whether or not his remark was heard only

by the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton or whether it was heard by everyone, including yourself.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I do not
believe the Chair is in any position to rule as to who heard the remark made by the minister, and who did not. The point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Cape Breton South was that the Chair was being directed by a minister of the crown. The Chair is not being directed by a minister of the crown and therefore I feel the hon. member has no point of privilege.


Gerald Augustine Regan: If I may, I should like to continue the remarks I was making before I was interrupted by the backbenchers on the Conservative side. I am sorry if I in any way misquoted the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates). What I intended to say was, and I repeat, that the whole Chignecto complex would include the canal, while the hon. member seemed to stress particularly the development at the head of Shepody bay rather than the Minas basin development. I would point out that the Minas basin development would generate a great deal more power. In addition, it would solve the problem of transportation from the Annapolis valley to the Parrsboro area and would open the way for great economic advancement in the Parrsboro area which is situated in the hon. member's constituency. I was surprised, therefore, to find him prejudiced against the Minas basin development.
Turning to the question of whether or not the entire Chignecto complex development should be considered, I would say that it would appear to me this resoultion is an attempt by the hon. member to have the Chignecto canal, which is an entirely separate consideration from the standpoint of the development of tidal power, given consideration at this time. There are different considerations and different points of view in connection with these two projects. There are many people who, while they are in favour of the tidal power development, if and when this can be done without harming the use of coal for power generation in the maritimes, have very serious doubts as to whether the Chignecto canal project is an economic or worth-while one in relation to the amount of money that would have to be expended.
The Minas basin power development would generate 15 billion kilowatt hours per year. Certainly, this would provide us with the amount of power that would be necessary for the industrial needs of the area for some time to come. I would, in general, agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Kings (Mr. Mullally) who said that the causeway to
Chignecto Power Project Prince Edward Island should take precedence over this power development. This point is well taken, indeed.
In conclusion I would only want to say that for many years man has been interested in the development of new and more economic means for the development of power. Many years ago in my constituency of Halifax there was a gentleman by the name of Parsons, whose first name escapes me, who carried on extensive experiments in connection with the generation of power from waves. Actually, his experiments had advanced to the point where he was able to light a small house with electricity from power developed with an apparatus for the generation of power from waves. There are many ways in which power can be developed. I think the notice of motion put on the order paper for the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates) is one that will, in years to come, deserve much attention.


Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Alberi):: As
one whose constituency would be affected to only a slightly lesser degree than that of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Coates), I should like to indicate briefly my support of this motion. First of all, I should like to clear up what I think is a misapprehension of the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Regan). This project would consist of two aspects, the Shepody bay and Cumberland bay tidal development. It is the one in Shepody in which I am primarily interested, because it would affect my constituency in that Albert county would be the base of one of the Shepody dams, probably around a site called St. Mary.
This part of New Brunswick seriously needs the development which would result from this project. It has some minerals, oil, copper and the like. I feel if we decided to go forward with such a plan it would be very much appreciated by all in the maritimes. I note that the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickers-gill) is here and following this debate very closely. I am pleased to see him, because we know that his department looms very large in our lives. We know that he can claim domicile in many parts of Canada, but he aspires to be very well regarded in the maritimes.
I hope a project such as this will obtain leadership from the minister.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, I say quite seriously that the maritimes know and appreciate what the Diefenbaker government did during its term of office. It is true that there has not been anything of a harmful nature to the maritimes done by the new government as yet, but they have to go a long way
566	HOUSE OF
Chignecto Power Project to do what the Conservatives did tor the maritimes during their time in office. I do not want to talk the measure out, and I commend the hon. member for Cumberland for having the foresight to bring forward this regional problem. I hope it commends itself to the people of Canada.


Mr. J. E. Lloyd (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, the missing link in the study of this problem is a study of the economic base which is so vital to the development of the Atlantic provinces. It seems to me that this should be part and parcel of all studies, and it is being done in a variety of ways. The Atlantic development board, for example, has organized economic studies in the Atlantic region. It would appear to me that the additions and subtractions from the economic base in the maritime provinces should concern all of us in that region of Canada. What we want is an increase in the total economic base of the region. If we can accomplish it this way, then certainly there will be no objection to it. We must be certain that this is an addition to the economic base of the Atlantic region. We do not want to subtract

from some other area in that same region. This is our primary concern.
I see it is six o'clock, Mr. Speaker.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Before asking about the business for the rest of the week, may I make a correction in Hansard? On page 503 there appears the words, "varied in a statement made by the Prime Minister". The word I used was "buried". Hansard is wrong and I was wrong. The statement was not made by the Prime Minister, it was made by the Minister of Justice on orders of the day.
With that correction, may I suggest to the house leader that tomorrow, not necessarily today, he be prepared at the conclusion of the sitting to give us an outline for the business on the succeeding day and the following week, so that it will be on the last page of Hansard, just for convenience.


Guy Favreau: I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me proper notice.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 5, 1964