1964-11-05

Mr. Speaker:: May I take this opportunity of recognizing the presence in the galleries of 100 delegates from 23 countries, including Canada, who are attending the meeting of military experts to consider the technical aspects of the United Nations peace keeping operations. This important conference began on Monday, November 2, 1964 and will end tomorrow, Friday, November 6, 1964. It is a pleasure to have you with us.



STANDING ORDERS

[Stage Direction]
Third report of standing committee on standing orders-Mr. Asselin (Notre Dame de Grace).


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, may I make a brief statement about assistance for airports in heavily populated areas. The federal government has for many years assumed full responsibility for capital expenditures in connection with main line and other airports required to support scheduled air services in Canada. It has also provided cost sharing grants to assist in the development of local airports, and outright grants for airstrips in remote areas.
For some time it has been apparent that the policy of grants to local and remote airstrips needed review because of changes in costs and in requirements, as well as changes in technology. The Department of Transport has had this whole matter under intensive review for some months, and I hope soon to be in a position to make a general statement.
Meanwhile, because of problems at certain airports in heavily populated areas which have substantial traffic although they are not served by scheduled air lines, action has already been taken to improve local airports by provision of additional facilities. This has
taken place with regard to Sherbrooke and Hamilton-Mount Hope-airports. The government has today decided to take steps at once to meet urgent situations at Sarnia; at the Niagara regional airport at St. Catharines, and at the Waterloo-Wellington airport by providing additional facilities at these air fields as well. Officials of the department will be getting in touch with local officials in the next few days.



INQUIRIES RESPECTING TELEVISION INTERVIEW BY PRIME MINISTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence for good reason of the Prime Minister I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and ask whether his attention has been drawn to a television interview given by the Prime Minister in Hamilton last night. I ask, on the basis of that interview, is it to be concluded that the government has decided, even before the meeting of party leaders, on the imposition of closure on the flag committee report?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Acting Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, I did not have the pleasure of listening to the Prime Minister last night on television. If I had I am sure I would have derived at least equal pleasure with the right hon. Leader of the Opposition over the masterly exposition which the Prime Minister generally displays on such occasions. I would want to see the full text of his statement before making any comment. However, I am sure the right hon. gentleman would agree with me it is desirable in the national interest that our business should not be unduly protracted.


John George Diefenbaker: So desirable is it that I ask the hon. gentleman, who is the greatest wholesale purveyor of the smooth speech in this house-soporific, sometimes-will he direct the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that we would be only too happy to go ahead with those important matters of legislation which have been kept in abeyance as an excuse in order to have the flag debate concluded?
9778	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easi: I will certainly see that the question asked by the right hon. gentleman is conveyed to the Prime Minister, and I am glad he and I are now agreed it is in the national interest that there should be no undue delay in the despatch of the public business of this house.


Mr. Real Caouelte (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a supplementary question.
At the same time and concerning the same game, could he determine if the leader of the official opposition really stated in Toronto, the day before yesterday-I think, while addressing the chamber of commerce -that the main function of a leader of the opposition was to oppose. The right hon. gentleman is reported to have repeated at least ten times: our role is to oppose and oppose and oppose, no matter which debate comes up, whether on the flag or some new legislation. Is it true that the Leader of the Opposition intends to oppose and keep on opposing, as he said in Toronto the night before last?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I hope not, Mr. Speaker.


John George Diefenbaker: It is a wonderful alliance between you and the Creditistes.


Mr.  T. S. Barnell@Comox-Alberni: supplementary question. May I ask whether the statement of the Prime Minister, to the effect that when the Secretary of State for External Affairs says "we shall take it under consideration it means it is not likely to happen", is to be taken at its face value?


Mr. Churchill:: A further supplementary question-


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Before dealing with a new question may I just deal with that one. The Prime Minister has a great capacity for proper interpretation.


John George Diefenbaker: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to ask the secretary of state this. In view of the statement just made by the hon. member for Villeneuve, has the minister promised that hon. member a trip overseas to Africa or Asia?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I have not promised the hon. member for Villeneuve a trip such as is suggested, but I will say to the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre that I am prepared to promise him a trip.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I would rather stay here and watch you.



OFFICIAL STATUS OF MEMBER FOR RED DEER ON AFRICAN TOUR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Theogene Ricard (SI. Hyacinihe-Ba-gol):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. What specific mission has been assigned to the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) by the government on the occasion of his trip to Africa?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secrelary of Stale for External Affairs: Mr. Speaker, I gave the reason yesterday, but I shall be ready later on today to supply a further explanation.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Speaker, if I understand correctly, the minister is saying that there are two reasons why the hon. member was sent on a mission. Would he specify which is the official one?


Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs. It is based on the appointment of the hon. member for Red Deer as a special envoy for the government of Canada. I was wondering whether the minister's attention had been brought to the fact that most of the inhabitants of the continent of Africa are of the negro race; that they have been taking a very keen interest in political developments in the United States, are well aware of the significance of Senator Goldwater's candidature and will undoubtedly take equal cognizance of the expressions of regret over Senator Gold-water's defeat by members of the party of the hon. member for Red Deer; and does he think this is likely to place the hon. member in a suitable position as Canada's representative in that continent?


Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, I want to emphatically deny that I ever said anything of the kind.


An hon. Member:: Nobody said you did.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman would not expect me to be responsible for all the political views-if indeed these are the views held-of any particular member.


Mr. Winkler:: You might wish to be.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: But I do share with my hon. friend the opportunity for saying that we in this country are pleased that the United States elections are over and, without commenting on the results of those elections, of observing that Canada will continue to collaborate with the administration of the United States.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs.
In view of the fact that Russia is attempting to send cosmonauts to the moon, and that the United States are doing the same, that Canada has sent the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) to Africa, and that the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) is suggesting that I be sent somewhere in the world-


Mr. Valade:: Or to the moon-


David Réal Caouette: -would the minister consider sending, as the first Canadian cosmonaut to the moon-


Georges-J. Valade: The hon. member for Villeneuve.


David Réal Caouette: -the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre, who would feel perfectly at home there.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre has just reached the moon.

I should point out to my hon. friend, Mr. Speaker, that I was only speaking figuratively.


Mr. Slanley Knowles (Winnipeg Norlh Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Before the minister appointed the hon. member for Red Deer to his present assignment, I wonder whether the minister considered sections 10 and 11 of the Senate and House of Commons Act which, unless there is an appropriate order in council, might cost the hon. member for Red Deer
Inquiries of the Ministry his seat; or was that the purpose, and is that the purpose of the invitation offered to the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre and the hon. member for Villeneuve?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that in putting his question my hon. friend wanted to give me the opportunity to say that was not the intention. The Senate and House of Commons Act in my opinion does not warrant that conclusion. This morning I looked at section 16 of the act, and I have discussed the matter with others, and I am sure the conclusion that my hon. friend might want to be able to draw would not be warranted.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has a firm decision been made on whether or not to pay the hon. member's expenses on this trip?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Yes. I said that yesterday.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and ask whether his attention has been drawn to a statement by Mr. Pat Bums, a radio station interviewer and commentator from Vancouver before a meeting of the board of broadcast governors recently, to the effect that he had received a telephone call from George Lincoln Rockwell, the leader of the nazi party in the United States, from Vancouver international airport at about the same time it was alleged Mr. Rockwell was there. If this has been drawn to the minister's attention would he care to comment on it?


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: As a result of the additional information which came to light from the news reports, immigration officials conducted an immediate investigation into this matter. It has been learned that George Lincoln Rockwell was able to gain admission to Canada as an air lines passenger on October 25 at Vancouver. He left Canada the following morning. The circumstances under which he was able to effect entry are under investigation.
9780	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry



DEPORTATION OF FAMILY OF FORMER DOMINICAN REPUBLIC OFFICIAL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['You do not know anything about your troops.']
René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, on November 3, in response to an inquiry by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle, I indicated that I would be reconsidering the case of Mrs. Espaillat and her children in the light of the apparent willingness of the Portuguese government to extend the validity of her entry visa to that country. I have now received confirmation of this extension. In view of this development her stay in Canada has also been extended and it is expected that this will permit Mrs. Espaillat's children to complete the current school year.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerald A. Regan (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Has he received a telegram from Pastor Perry Rockwood of the People's Gospel Hour concerning what steps are being taken to release missionaries held in the Stanleyville area of the Congo; and is the minister able to bring the house up to date with any information he may have received since he informed us quite fully on this matter a little over a week ago?


Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend will remember that several questions about this very serious situation have already been put by the hon. member for Red Deer.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Later in the day
I hope to deal with some aspects of this situation, not unrelated to the reasons for the hon. member for Red Deer now being in Africa.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs, seeking merely information. Have there been developments in Cyprus recently in which, according to certain press reports, a Canadian


soldier has been wounded? Second, did a Canadian soldier fire a certain number of shots at one of the Greek or Turkish Cypriots who failed to halt on command?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I believe that a Canadian soldier was wounded by accident within the last few days. As to the second part of the question, I do not have the facts but I shall ascertain what the situation may be and if the allegation is in fact correct. With regard to the situation in Cyprus generally, I am sure my hon. friend will agree that the relative calm in that troubled island has been made possible in part by the presence of the United Nations peace keeping force, in which Canada continues to have the largest complement.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Defence. I would ask him if he has more information than the Secretary of State for External Affairs with regard to the reported wounding of a Canadian soldier in Cyprus. What were the circumstances under which it happened, and how serious is the casualty?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: I have nothing to add, Mr. Speaker.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, surely the Minister of National Defence can answer a question with regard to the troops who come under his jurisdiction. Under what circumstances was this soldier wounded in Cyprus? The Secretary of State for External Affairs said "accidentally". Was he shot by one of the Turkish or Greek Cypriots, or was he accidentally hit by his own comrades?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The Secretary of State for External Affairs has indicated already that a report would be sought respecting the situation.


Gordon Minto Churchill: You do not know anything about your troops.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. I have had this question for a number of days, and in the minister's absence would direct it to the acting minister, whoever that may be. Will the minister say whether he has any immediate statement to

make on steps to be taken that may alleviate the depressed position in which the farmers of eastern Canada find themselves?


Hon. Maurice Sauve (Minister of Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, if this question is related to a new dairy policy, an announcement will be made in due course.


Eric Alfred Winkler: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. It is not specifically related to the dairy policy; it is related to the whole question of eastern agriculture.


Maurice Sauvé: We are working on a program that will improve considerably the situation of eastern farmers, and the announcement should come in the near future.


John George Diefenbaker: Well; improve considerably.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Hon. members will remember that yesterday I ruled one of these questions out of order on the ground that it was far too wide to expect an answer at this time. We seem to be proceeding along the same line this afternoon. I would hope that a vague, general question like that would not be asked at this time.


Eric Alfred Winkler: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I will admit that your statement in this regard is absolutely correct. However, over the past few weeks I have been rising in this house to ask questions about turkey producers, beef producers, hog producers and the whole range of operations of eastern agriculture, without receiving one answer. There has always been a dodge and a hedge in reply to my questions, and that is the reason for my wide ranging question today. I will not take advantage of the opportunity to refer the matter for discussion at 10 p.m. until the Minister of Agriculture returns to this house.


Maurice Sauvé: Mr. Speaker, I should like the hon. member to bring the question forward for discussion this evening at 10 o'clock, when I will be here to answer it.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Forestry? Did the government this week receive a delegation from the Catholic farmers' union, and what does he intend to do to assist agriculture in the eastern provinces and particularly the Quebec farmers?


Maurice Sauvé: Mr. Speaker, until 2.30 this afternoon we had not received any telegram from the Catholic
Inquiries of the Ministry farmers' union asking us to receive a delegation. On October 22 that union sent us a telegram concerning the dairy policy, but we are still expecting a telegram asking us to receive a delegation from the Catholic farmers' union.
I know that the Minister of Agriculture will be very pleased to receive such a delegation. Tuesday, the minister announced that last week we met Mr. Courcy, the minister of agriculture of the province of Quebec, together with his officials, concerning the establishment of a dairy policy, and we will soon be in a position to announce important changes which, I am sure, will satisfy the eastern farmers, especially as concerns the dairy industry. I am sure that my hon. friends will then be pleased to congratulate us.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Speaker, may I ask another supplementary question?
Does this mean that to date the federal government had no policy respecting this matter?


Mr. Clement Vincent (Nicolel-Yamaska):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Forestry a question supplementary to those which were directed to him a few minutes ago. It deals with the new government policy which will be announced in connection with the dairy industry.
Can the minister tell us whether this new policy, which the opposition has been asking for for several months, will be retroactive to May 1 last?


Maurice Sauvé: Certainly not, Mr. Speaker. [Text]


Mr. A. D. Alkenbrack (Prince Edward-Lennox):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Forestry who seems to be looking after agricultural questions in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture. Would the minister take into immediate consideration the assistance of eastern beef cattle raisers in the form of loans that could save them from disastrous losses because of the current low and unsatisfactory prices for unfinished beef at the present time, and because of their financial inability to hold these cattle?


Maurice Sauvé: Mr. Speaker, I will bring this question to the attention of the minister.
9782	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry



FEEDER CATTLE-REQUEST FOR PRICE PROTECTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. Nasserden (Rosihern):: I should like to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the federal government is going to move into the market to protect the level of prices on feeder cattle in western Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Perhaps I could take the question as notice and see that it is answered tomorrow.



CANADIAN CONSTITUTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Auguste Choquette (Lolbiniere):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, or perhaps in his absence the President of the Privy Council would answer the following question. Whereas the Minister of Justice has stated that a white paper will be issued respecting the history of and events leading to the domiciling of the constitution, would the minister consider including in the white paper the legal opinion furnished following the federal-provincial conference by Hon. Davie Fulton, the immediate future leader of the national Conservative party?


Hon. G. J. Mcllraiih (President of the Privy Council):: Mr. Speaker, I will take the hon. member's question as notice.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister. Has he read a news item in this morning's Gazette to the effect that in the province of Quebec unemployment increased by 27 per cent from April to September, this year? Can the minister tell us whether it is his government's intention to take some action in order to curtail that unemployment increase in the province of Quebec, since the Liberals committed themselves during the last election campaign to full employment in our country?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I have not read this article but


I know that the hon. member is aware of the fact that the situation in our country has greatly improved under the present administration.


Georges-J. Valade: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
Could the Acting Prime Minister give us some explanation as to why unemployment has increased by 27 per cent, as compared with last year? Does that mean that such conditions are of no concern to the present government, which had promised full employment during the last election campaign?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's statement is not in accordance with the facts.



Perhaps I could supplement the reply given a few minutes ago to the hon. member for St. Mary. The figures he quoted in regard to unemployment in the province of Quebec were so extravagant and unrelated to the facts that I should point out that in September, 1964, the figures were 4.3 per cent; in August, 5.0 per cent and in September, 1963, 5.3 per cent. This confirms what I said, that there has been substantial improvement in this very difficult national problem.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: May I ask a supplementary question. Can the minister tell us when he is going to implement the promise that was made during the 1963 campaign, that a Liberal government would reduce unemployment to zero?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Since my hon. friend asks me this question, may I point out to him that there was never any such statement made. What was said was that when this government assumed office it would resort to policies that would considerably improve this situation. Those have lead toward an even greater improvement than it anticipated. The results are apparent now. We have now the lowest unemployment we have had, generally speaking, for over eight years, and we have had greater improvement than we have had in 17 years.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: May I ask a supplementary question. Will the Acting Prime Minister read his speeches of 1962, where he will find that he did promise full employment all over Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have already reread those speeches many times-

Inquiries of the Ministry


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: But you do not understand REVIEW OF FORMULA TO DETERMINE them.	DESIGNATED AREAS


Paul Joseph James Martin: -and every time I read them, I derive greater satisfaction.


Georges-J. Valade: I should like to ask the Acting Prime Minister if he denies the statement that I quoted before, which was issued by Mr. J. P. Reid, who is the local general manager of the national employment service at Montreal, in which statement he says that some 38,000 persons were unemployed-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member must know, and I did not interrupt him before because it seemed to be the quickest way to get over the hurdle, that he should not inquire as to whether statements made in newspapers are correct. This also gives me an opportunity to remind hon. members of section 3 of the instructions given me by the house, that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The same thing applies when asking questions.


Georges-J. Valade: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The minister quoted some figures but he did not indicate the source of those figures. I think the minister should tell us from which source he took this information.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The dominion bureau of statistics.


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
Can the Acting Prime Minister tell us whether the figures he brings before the house include the number of unemployed receiving unemployment insurance benefits or whether they include also those who receive only social assistance benefits or receive nothing at all?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think that I shall have to consider this question before giving an answer.


Georges-J. Valade: I wish to give notice that we will debate this question at the earliest opportunity.
On the orders of the day:


Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to put a question to the Minister of Industry.
Several times in the house I asked when the minister would announce the new designated areas. Is he now in a position to tell us when he intends to announce the new areas to be designated for the economic assistance provided?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Industry):: Mr. Speaker, the annual review is still proceeding and I hope to have an announcement to make in the not too distant future.



INQUIRY OF THE MINISTRY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister of external affairs based on a Canadian Press report datelined Detroit which appears in the Financial Post. It says:
Eternal affairs minister Paul Martin reiterated yesterday that the Canadian government is determined to achieve a somewhat better balance in Canadian-U.S. trade in auto parts.
Mr. Speaker, I realize that the minister's duties are wide and varied, including those of acting prime minister, which he handles with great skill, but would he advise the house when he was appointed to look after affairs in eternity?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, there is
growing evidence that the government is possessed of what one might call earthly eternity.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Has he been able to straighten out the base lines along our coasts?


Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, it is not a problem of straightening the base lines along any coast. It is a matter of completing all negotiations and taking appropriate action.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Frank Howard: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Are the negotiations with the United States completed in so far as the west coast is concerned?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: The second phase of negotiations is completed but there are still details to be negotiated.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Raymond Langlois (Meganfic):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs.
Could the minister order an investigation respecting several complaints which were received concerning the allocation of pensions to veterans by the pension commission, due to the fact that they would be members of some political party or other and as it seems that there exists some discrimination against certain veterans?


Hon. Roger Teillei (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, first of all I wish to deny categorically the accusation laid by the hon. member and assure him as well as the other members that no political consideration intervenes in the allocation of pensions to veterans. Therefore, no inquiry is required.


Raymond Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question. Would the curiosity of the minister be satisfied if I told him about certain specific cases, either in his office or in this house?


Roger-Joseph Teillet: Mr. Speaker, I wish to tell this house that any specific case which is brought to my attention is studied immediately, and if the hon. member would be kind enough to submit to me, as soon as possible, the cases he is referring to, I would be glad to look into them.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a point of order arising out of the question put by the hon. member for Megantic. The hon. member for Megantic has taken up the answer of the minister and has said he can supply some proof that prejudice is involved in some veterans affairs cases. I think the hon. member for Megantic should put to the house the case that he assures the minister he has in his own hands. This is my point of order.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hal):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the congested conditions in some of the market places in western Canada with regard to feeder livestock, I wonder if the minister would make representations to the railway to see whether there is anything that can be done to speed up the return of livestock cars from eastern Canada.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be glad to do that, sir.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John Loney (Bruce):: My question is for the Minister of Transport. Will the minister inform the house when the medical requirements for a private pilot's licence will be eased?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, even though I have been under medical care recently, I would care to give an answer to that question without better advice than I have available at this moment.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
1. Administration, operation and maintenance including payment of remuneration, subject to the approval of the governor in council and notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, in connection with the assignment by the Canadian government of Canadians to the staffs of the international organizations detailed in the estimates (part recoverable from those organizations) and authority to make recoverable advances in amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts of the shares of those organizations of such expenses, and authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, for the appointment and fixing of salaries of commissioners (international commissions for supervision and control in Indo-China), secretaries and staff by the governor in council; official hospitality; relief and repatriation of distressed Canadian citizens abroad and their dependents and reimbursement of the United Kingdom for relief expenditures incurred by its diplomatic and consular posts on Canadian account (part recoverable); Canadian representation at international conferences; expenses of the third com-
[Stage Direction]
monwealth education conference; a cultural relations and academic exchange program with the French community, and grants as detailed in the estimates, $10,826,300.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, the other day it was suggested that because of the importance of certain events that have transpired in the world community, I owed it to the house to make a statement on behalf of the government with regard to those events that have such implications for peace in the world and have such important implications for the United Nations and for NATO. I readily concur in the view that it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to seize the first opportunity to make a statement with regard to at least two events, the changes in the top level structure of the government of the Soviet union, and the detonation of an atomic bomb on mainland China.


Gordon Minto Churchill: You were to deal with the hon. member for Red Deer first.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No. I think I said clearly yesterday that I did not know that we should proceed for the one purpose, but I believe we should proceed to discuss the estimates. I am prepared to do this, as well as to deal with the important matter to which my hon. friend now directs my attention.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The understanding yesterday was simply this, that the minister for external affairs, who was delayed returning to the house before six o'clock, would deal with the subject that had been under discussion yesterday afternoon, namely the representation of the government of Canada by the hon. member for Red Deer. This promise was made to us by the house leader and was agreed to by the minister for external affairs. It was on that basis that the estimates of the Department of External Affairs were to be called today. This is the subject he should deal with first instead of dodging and trying to hide behind something. He must be afraid to deal with the subject we raised yesterday. I ask him now to be fair with the House of Commons and deal with that subject first, then go on to these other important matters that he has mentioned.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to speak to the point of order, Mr. Chairman. I was in the house and I was the one who made the suggestion-I thank hon. members for accept-20220-619J
Supply-External Affairs ing it-that because of the presence here of Mr. Spaak, the distinguished foreign minister of Belgium, the Secretary of State for External Affairs should be excused until later in the afternoon in order to complete Mr. Spaak's visit. He did come back later in the afternoon, and it is true it was about a quarter to six.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Five minutes to six; be accurate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. gentleman opposite says five minutes to six, then it was at that, moment; and an offer was made that the Minister of Industry should relinquish his estimates so the Secretary of State for External Affairs could be given an immediate opportunity to deal with the subject which it had been agreed would be dealt with at that time, but hon. gentlemen opposite said they preferred to go on with the estimates of the Department of Industry.
It was then arranged that the whole of this afternoon until five o'clock would be taken up with the estimates of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and so far as this afternoon was concerned I can recall no commitment made at that time that this particular subject would be extracted from the other matters with which the minister would wish to deal.
I just want this question of good faith to be dealt with separately. The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre is not perhaps the leading authority in the chamber on good faith.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I rise on a question of privilege. What is the imputation in that statement that I am not an authority on good faith? Is my good faith not as acceptable to the house as that of the hon. gentleman?


The Chairman:: Order.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Withdraw.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. May I have the co-operation of members of the committee. I understood the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre was rising on a question of privilege. The Minister of Transport was speaking on a point of order, and perhaps the committee would agree that we should hear him out, after which we could consider the point raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre.

Supply-External Affairs


John Whitney Pickersgill: I apologize to the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre, but I must say I was betrayed into saying this because he started out his observations by questioning our good faith. I know it is wrong for us to retort in kind to hon. gentlemen opposite. I know it is contrary to the sermon on the mount, and I withdraw immediately and apologize.
I made no reflection except that I did not think the hon. gentleman should set himself up above the rest of us.
I do believe there was an engagement for yesterday afternoon, but there was no formal engagement for this afternoon except that the estimates of external affairs would be brought up. How the Secretary of State for External Affairs chooses to deal with those estimates is, of course, his concern, but I did not think it was quite fair to allow this implication of bad faith to go unanswered.


Mr. Lamberi:: Mr. Chairman, yesterday
afternoon about seven minutes to six, when the hon. gentleman and the Secretary of State for External Affairs came into the chamber, we were endeavouring to complete the estimates of the Minister of Industry. There was an effort to get through with his estimates and I, who at that time was leading the discussion for this party, indicated we would prefer to go ahead with the estimates of the Minister of Industry because at five to six there was not time to start on the other question. Then it was said that we would consider the item this afternoon. It was certainly my understanding that we would be dealing with this particular item, which in itself is relatively minor compared with other things the Secretary of State for External Affairs will want to discuss. Perhaps the Minister of Transport should have learned a lesson from the events of yesterday afternoon, when with early frankness this matter could have been dealt with in five minutes or a quarter of an hour.


Gilles Grégoire: On the same question of privilege, I should like to refer also to a statement made by the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Mcllraith) as can be seen on page 9757 of Hansard, top of the first column:
As soon as he is available after his present interview with the foreign minister of Belgium. We could interrupt the estimates of the Minister of Industry at that point in order that the hon. member might have all the information he wishes with regard to this particular item.
Therefore, it is clear that yesterday the minister intended to have the estimates of the
[The Chairman.]
Department of External Affairs discussed today, not to discuss the explosion of an atomic bomb in China or the change of government in Russia, but precisely the matter on which a commitment was made by the President of Privy Council, as stated yesterday by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill).
Therefore, I think that the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill)- whom I should like to see on the moon-is right on that score but the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) should come back to the matter under discussion yesterday concerning the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson).


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I must thank the hon. member for what he just said, but I want to be fair to all hon. members.
[Text}
First of all may I say I had of course intended to deal with this matter, but as it had been suggested that the Secretary of State for External Affairs should deal at the earliest opportunity with two significant and important world events I readily conceded that I would do so. However, I do not think we ought to quarrel over matters of this sort, and I would be very glad to change the course that I had thought was generally desirable because of the importance of these two matters.
But before I deal with this particular question I take it my hon. friend from Winnipeg South Centre would readily acknowledge that it is my duty to go on with the other subjects, and I would like to point out what actually transpired yesterday so far as I was concerned. As has been mentioned, I was not in the chamber for most of yesterday because I was in conversation with the Belgian foreign minister, who had come here especially to see me on a matter of great importance. As he could only stay between twelve and five o'clock it was necessary that I should take advantage of his visit to Canada to see him at a time when normally I would have been in my seat in the chamber.
As recorded at page 9774 of yesterday's Hansard the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre asked:
Could we have the minister's estimates brought forward first thing tomorrow and restricted to the questions and answers with regard to the subject we raised this afternoon?
I said:
Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that I could not be here earlier-

And explained, as I have just done now, why I was not in the house. Then I went on to say:
I am in the hands of the house leader. If he wishes to proceed with the estimates tomorrow, I think that is satisfactory; but I do not know that we should proceed for one purpose: I believe we should proceed to discuss the estimates. I cannot however be here tomorrow night. The United Nations peace keeping conference is in session here and I have to meet with them tomorrow evening. I could be here tomorrow afternoon. In the few minutes remaining I would be very glad to deal with any questions my hon. friend has in mind.
There was no comment on this observation of mine. The hon. gentleman did not say "Oh, no." The understanding was that we would deal with one item in particular and so far as the record is concerned it is clear what my intentions were for today.
I would not want my hon. friend to accuse me of bad faith in the matter, because the record is clear on what I said.


George James McIlraith: And the record is clear so far as I am concerned.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: And the President of the Privy Council points out that the record is clear on what he said. However, I am now prepared to deal with this particular question if my hon. friend thinks it is more important than world shaking events.


Eric Alfred Winkler: Does the minister not feel that the integrity of any ministry, and particularly his own, is equally as important as any report from his department that he has to make to us?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I certainly agree, but I do not think I need spend much time trying to establish my integrity.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Mr. Chairman, yesterday on orders of the day I gave some of the reasons why the government had asked the hon. member for Red Deer to undertake at this time a journey of some two weeks to Africa. I stated that the hon. gentleman had spent some 15 years living in Ethiopia, one of the important countries with which Canada enjoys a very close relationship, and that in addition to having spent this length of time in Africa he has had an opportunity, such as perhaps no other mem-be of this house has enjoyed, of getting to know personalities in many of the governments of Africa. He has followed for a long time the evolutionary events of that emerging continent.
Supply-External Affairs
There are a number of matters which are of concern to Canada at this time in relation to some of the situations in certain African countries. Canada has a limited number of diplomatic missions in Africa and a limited number of missions where we have non-resident heads of mission. In the light of events which are of great concern to foreign communities all over the world, in the light of some of the problems which will face us on December 1 at the United Nations, and for other reasons, we felt it was in this nation's interests that we should take advantage of the services which I believe the hon. member for Red Deer is eminently qualified to perform in this area.
It was only in this light that he was asked to undertake a task which, I think, will have useful results. He will visit, at our request, the headquarters of the economic commission for Africa in Addis Ababa, a capital which he knows very well, having lived there for 15 years. He will have meetings with certain officials there including officials of the organization for African unity. Hon. members will recall that there was a very important conference of non-aligned states held in Cairo a few weeks ago, attended by representatives of many African countries. It was not constitutionally possible for Canada and for other countries not represented at that conference to send observers, yet it is of the utmost importance that we should have the fullest information placed directly at our disposal, in addition to information from other sources, so we can take the necessary steps and prepare for some important decisions which will have to be made very shortly, at the United Nations in particular.
I should like to point out that we are taking advantage of the presence in Africa of the hon. member for Red Deer for another purpose. Hon. members will recall the question which was put to me a few moments ago by one of the members for Halifax-


Some hon. Members:: Which one?


Paul Joseph James Martin: One of the very active and useful members of this house. This question, as others have done, underlined our concern for the safety of a number of Canadians resident in the Stanleyville area of the Congo where 800 hostages are being kept by the rebel forces in circumstances such that the Red Cross and other bodies have not been able to elicit satisfactory assurances as to their safety. I may say that in this total of 800 some 26 Canadians are included. The government is using every method

Supply-External Affairs it can to extricate these Canadians and, indirectly, others, from the regrettable and dangerous position in which they have been placed. I may say that the hon. member for Red Deer has a knowledge of this area and knows some of the personalities involved.


Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask the minister whether the hon. member for Red Deer will visit Stanleyville?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. gentleman knows he cannot visit Stanleyville. Even representatives of the Red Cross cannot visit Stanleyville. But I hope there are certain contacts which can be made, in the Congo and elsewhere, which may lead to satisfactory negotiations. At any rate that is our thought, and that is what we intend to do.


Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask what cities and towns in the Congo it is expected the hon. member for Red Deer will visit?


Mr. Martin (Essex Easi):: I am sure he will go to the capital, but it may be he will go elsewhere for the purpose of making contacts which we believe, from his acquaintance, he may be able to establish. In any event, we shall certainly resort to every effort in order to ensure as far as possible the safety of these Canadians, as the people of Canada would expect this government to do.
On October 14 a message was sent to a number of the governments which are members of the conciliation commission of the organization for African unity. This message asked these governments to use their influence to ensure that the Geneva conventions of 1949 were observed in the Congolese dispute so the lives and safety of the civilians involved, including Canadian and other nationals, who are presently held in rebel territory could be preserved. This appeal was made because it was considered that the articles of all four Geneva conventions is pertinent to the task of the conciliation commission. These articles impose on all signatory countries, even on those not parties to the conflict, an obligation to ensure respect for the convention and for the lives and safety of persons not actually involved in the dispute, such as our residents in the Congo.
The hon. member for Red Deer is due to visit Kenya next Monday and Tuesday and we are arranging for him to call on the distinguished prime minister of that country, Mr. Kenyatta, who is the chairman of the O.A.U. conciliation commission and a key figure in efforts to ensure the safety of our people in the Congo. I very much hope that in addition
[Mr. Martin (Essex East).j
to other appeals which have been made to Mr. Kenyatta this personal appeal by one who, I understand, knows him, will reinforce the messages which have already been sent.
We also hope that while in Ethiopia the hon. member for Red Deer will be able to ask the government of Ethiopia, which is also a member of the conciliation commission, to support measures for the safety of our citizens in the Congo. We all recall that when the Emperor of Ethiopia, that gallant and distinguished head of state, came to Ottawa a few months ago it was apparent that the hon. member for Red Deer had a very special relationship with him. We hope that in the circumstances this relationship will help in solving the problem of these people who find their safety threatened in Stanleyville.
I should add that in addition to visiting Ethiopia and Kenya I hope the hon. member for Red Deer will be able to visit at least one other country. I believe it is proper for us from time to time to utilize the experience and ability of members of this house. We do so at the United Nations. We ask members to constitute themselves as members of the Canadian delegation at the United Nations. We send members to sessions of the United Nations as observers. We send members to other international conferences, and I believe the assignment given to the hon. member for Red Deer to visit certain key countries and key personalities in Africa is in the interests of the formulation of clear and desirable foreign policy in these particular situations. I believe the course we have followed is one which will commend itself to most reasonable people, and I have no hesitation in commending it to this committee.


Mr. Nesbitt:: I listened with great attention to what the Secretary of State for External Affairs had to say on this interesting subject. I think most members of this house are aware of the previous experience of the hon. member for Red Deer in Ethiopia for some length of time in the field of education. I think hon. members, particularly those who had the pleasure of seeing the film "Mr. Pearson", realize that there is a relationship between the hon. member for Red Deer and the Emperor of Ethiopia. I believe that as the Secretary of State for External Affairs has just said, most reasonable members would go along with that. However, there are some other things which seem a little obscure in this whole situation, and I was wondering whether the minister would elaborate and elucidate a little more in respect of them.

In the first place, Mr. Chairman, it is my information that at the present time the hon. member for Red Deer is visiting Ghana, in fact is just leaving that particular country, and that his next stop is the new United Republic of Tanzania, formerly Tanganyika. The minister has said he will then be visiting Kenya, and after that it is my understanding that the hon. member for Red Deer will be paying a relatively brief visit to Ethiopia and then on to Cairo, in the United Arab Republic. It is my understanding that at no time is the hon. member for Red Deer visiting the Congo or anywhere near there. The minister has just told us that he will be some place in the Congo, and I wonder whether the minister would expand on that just a little more.
There is another question that I think arises in the minds of many people. As the minister has said, naturally when the interests of Canada and Canadian problems are involved-particularly the lives of Canadian missionaries in the Congo-certainly this house would want everything possible done to protect the lives of these very courageous people. I have had some experience in this field and realize that sometimes in the field of external affairs you have to do things indirectly that you cannot do directly. Nevertheless it seems strange to me that if in fact one of the objects of the mission of the hon. member for Red Deer is to help protect the lives and security of Canadian and other missionaries in the Congo, he would not be visiting some designated place in that area or even close to it, perhaps some of the adjoining states.
Another matter that comes to mind is this. The hon. member for Red Deer has had experience in certain parts of Africa, but it is my understanding from people who are also quite knowledgeable about that continent that though you may be well received in one part of Africa it does not necessarily follow that you are going to be received with open arms in other parts of Africa. While I have no doubt the hon. member for Red Deer will be more than welcome in Ethiopia, and perhaps in certain other places in Africa, this perhaps would not apply to all the countries he is intending to visit.
I realize that in Africa, and indeed in other parts of the world, the position held opens doors to persons of influence, but the hon. member for Red Deer is a private member of this house. True, he is the leader of a small group of members here, but he is not a member of the privy council or anything
Supply-External Affairs of that nature. It seems odd to me that there is not some senior member of the Department of External Affairs who has perhaps a wider and greater knowledge of Africa in general, if not in particular-and even Ethiopia-than the hon. member for Red Deer. We have a great many highly experienced senior members of the Department of External Affairs who have had experience in Africa, and it seems rather odd that one of these persons was not sent as a special representative of the government of Canada, rather than a member, albeit the leader, of one of the opposition parties in the House of Commons.
The minister dealt with this matter slightly in his remarks, but I do not think he has satisfied most of us completely. I mentioned this yesterday briefly and the minister replied, also briefly. I refer to the question as to what extent members of opposition parties should take part in the formulation of government policy, because this in fact ties the hands of opposition parties and in this respect perhaps makes them an even closer ally of the government. I understand this question was settled some time ago. I believe I mentioned 1945 yesterday, but the minister of course was correct when he said it was 1946, after the initial organization meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco when members of all the political parties in this house at the time formed the Canadian delegation.
The minister mentioned Hon. Mr. Bracken, but it is my understanding that really the procedure was instigated by Hon. Mr. Cold-well, namely that it would be unwise for members, and particularly leaders, of opposition parties to take part in the formulation of government policy because it would completely tie their hands in the House of Commons on that particular subject and perhaps even on other subjects when they were being debated. As a result the institution of parliamentary observers was put into effect at the United Nations, which system has of course been copied by a great many other countries.
Now that the minister, for reasons best known to himself-he has probably told us a good many of them-has selected the hon. member for Red Deer for this job, he has certainly departed from that policy, which subsequent governments have followed ever since 1946. I have already mentioned that a policy such as this would help tie the hands not only of the member concerned but of
9790	HOUSE OF
Supply-External Affairs his party, in this regard, and I think it is a very bad precedent to set.
True, there has to be a balancing of interests in this regard. If it was very clear that the hon. member for Red Deer had a complete and unequalled knowledge of all parts of Africa, particularly the Congo-because that is apparently one of the leading items of business for the hon. gentleman- we might stretch a point; but it seems clear that the experience of the hon. member for Red Deer is largely confined to Ethiopia and not particularly to the Congo or these other parts of Africa mentioned by the minister. I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether the minister could give us a little further explanation with regard to some of the matters I have mentioned.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear, of course, that the hon. member for Red Deer is not formulating policy, any more than an observer who goes to the United Nations formulates policy. The hon. gentleman is going to make a certain assessment and undertake, as a result of discussions I had yesterday with Mr. Spaak, a particular assignment in Nairobi.
I believe my hon. friend will recognize that in this there is no departure from policy or the procedure for participation from time to time by private members of this house in assignments which are accorded to them. The formulation of policy is something that resides with the government, but that does not preclude the government from utilizing the services of individuals, either in the government service or elsewhere in special circumstances such as those presently before us.
My hon. friend is quite correct; there are in the Department of External Affairs, in some of our missions and here at home, individuals with a very wide knowledge of and an expertise in African affairs. The hon. member for Red Deer will be accompanied, when he goes to a number of these places, by an official from the Department of External Affairs. It is in part because the hon. gentleman has knowledge of the area, together with knowledge of some of the personalities there, that it was thought this was a desirable course to pursue.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Would the minister permit a further question. Could the minister tell us at what point in time in the next ten days or so the hon. member will visit the Congo or nearby?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have just said that he would be in Nairobi.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Nairobi? In the Congo?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, it is perfectly correct that there are many matters in the field of external affairs more important than the one the committee is now discussing, but it is also true that a very important matter is that of the relations between the government and parliament. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the government has not been playing fair with parliament with respect to this whole question.
In the first place, yesterday there was an obvious attempt to avoid having to deal with this matter. Then when we got into committee and the government was unable to avoid dealing with the matter we were given answers which were not as completely frank and straightforward as we feel they should have been. The President of the Privy Council, who is a member of the cabinet and who was present with ten or a dozen other ministers, told us he knew nothing at all about it. Finally we managed to get the Secretary of State for External Affairs into the house and he admitted to us quite openly that the hon. member for Red Deer had been asked by the government to undertake this assignment in Africa. Then when the minister was asked whether there was an order in council in this regard and, if not, how were the hon. member's expenses being paid, the reply of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, first of all, was in this very direct sentence:
X do not believe there was an order in council.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Nor was one necessary.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is not what the minister said yesterday.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And that is what I am saying now.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What the minister said yesterday was:
I do not believe there was an order in council.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then I asked the minister:
Then how are the expenses being paid?
The reply of the Secretary of State for External Affairs was:
The hon. gentleman will have to indicate what his expenses were, and they will be examined and the proper procedure will be observed.
I then asked:
Is there an understanding that the expenses will be paid?

The minister's reply was:
It would be very unfair to ask an hon. gentleman to undertake such a responsibility and pay the expenses himself.
Those exchanges, Mr. Chairman, are to be found at page 9754 of Hansard for yesterday, Wednesday, November 4. One can draw from that-one has to draw it; it is not there in clear language-that the expenses of the hon. member for Red Deer are being paid.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is no doubt about that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister now says there is no doubt about it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And I said that yesterday clearly.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister did not say that yesterday. The minister said yesterday what is reported on the pages of Hansard-


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: -and he should stick with what the record shows and not try to distort it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. gentleman-


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am reading the record.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member must not say that I am trying to distort things, because I am not trying to distort things. I will look at Hansard, but I understood that I clearly indicated this yesterday.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is no point of order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not know why my hon. friend says I am trying to distort it, because I am not trying to distort it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is no point of order. The minister is now trying to say what he indicated yesterday to the house; but I am telling the house what he actually said yesterday, and I am doing so not by way of paraphrasing it or by putting it in my own words but by reading his words.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What the minister said was:
I do not believe there was an order in council.
Then he went on:
The hon. gentleman will have to indicate what his expenses were, and they will be examined and the proper procedure will be observed.
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He did not tell us whether they would be paid or what the proper procedure would be, so I went on to ask:
Is there an understanding that the expenses will paid?
The hon. gentleman's answer was:
It would be very unfair to ask an hon. gentleman to undertake such a responsibility and pay the expenses himself.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: So I say, Mr. Chairman, that we are right back where we were before the Secretary of State for External Affairs lost his temper a moment ago; that one can draw from that exchange that the expenses are being paid, although it was not said so clearly.
When the minister answered my question in this regard on orders of the day today he said "Yes, and I said so yesterday". At any rate, Mr. Chairman, we now have it clear; the expenses of the hon. member are being paid. This whole matter could have been dealt with yesterday in a matter of two or three minutes had we had a couple of direct answers.
Now we have this situation. The minister says now in the midst of this present exchange that no order in council is necessary. Obviously, knowing the sections of the Senate and House of Commons Act to which I was referring when I asked my question on orders of the day, he would know that there is a part of the Senate and House of Commons Act which is headed "Independence of parliament". Section 10 of the act reads as follows:
Except as hereinafter specially provided:
(a)	no person accepting or holding any office, commission or employment, permanent or temporary, in the service of the government of Canada-
It has been made very clear today that the hon. member for Red Deer is out in Africa in the service of the government of Canada.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Just in the same way as any ordinary member going to a conference is in the service of the government.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The section goes on:
-at the nomination of the crown or at the nomination of any of the officers of the government of Canada, to which any salary, fee, wages, allowance, emolument, or profit of any kind is attached; and
(b)	no sheriff, registrar of deeds, clerk of the peace, or county crown attorney in any of the provinces of Canada,
is eligible as a member of the House of Commons, or shall sit or vote therein.

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Many members of this House of Commons have been on delegations of one kind or another. We all know that in order to have our expenses paid when we are on such delegations there either has to be a special vote containing some wording to make it clear that it does not violate this act, or there has to be an order in council covering the special case. Unless the minister can produce a vote in his estimates so worded as to provide for a private member of parliament to be sent on a special mission to Africa of the type the hon. member for Red Deer has been sent on, I submit there will have to be an order in council before the hon. gentleman's expenses can be paid. Otherwise he will have to forfeit his seat under the provisions of section 10 of the Senate and House of Commons Act.


Mr. Rheaume:: They do it retroactively. They have done that before.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is probably what they will do, yes. I do not mind their doing it so long as they tell us and are frank about it. Whether the government wants to choose a particular person to do a job for the government is for the government to decide. I am not questioning the policy. I think there are questions which could be asked about it. I think it is an awkward position in which the hon. member for Red Deer will find himself when he comes back to Canada as the leader of a party outside of the government, but that is for the government to decide.
What I am concerned about, Mr. Chairman-and let me pinpoint it-is this. The only reason I have entered this debate at all is because I think parliament cannot carry on unless there is the best of relationships between the executive and the members of the House of Commons. You do not get a good relationship when we are played with, as we were yesterday and as we have been today with respect to this matter. If it was formally decided by the minister or the cabinet before the hon. member for Red Deer went to Africa that this was going to be done, and if it is definitely the case, as it now seems to be from what the minister has said, that the hon. member was given an assignment or a job, why did the government not do it in a regular, formal way, and why did the minister not so inform the House of Commons? This is my concern, Mr. Chairman.
There are other angles. The hon. member for Oxford has raised some of them and the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands raised one and may pursue it later.


But my concern is the proper relationship that should exist between cabinet ministers and members of the House of Commons and I submit we have not had that proper relationship in this instance.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend is usually very precise and generally very fair, although sometimes he may not realize that he overstates his case. I think in the very words he has quoted from the record yesterday he will see that I clearly indicated there was no question that the expenses of the hon. gentleman were going to be borne. In fact my hon. friend quoted my own words to that effect. Yet he says that if we had said that yesterday it would have resolved the matter. My hon. friend does not think I am so naive as to believe that that would resolve the matter. I have seen too many situations in this house, including some of the participations of my hon. friend, to fail to realize that he would not refrain from taking advantage of any occasion which would cause merriment to the treasury benches. I must say that on occasion I have enjoyed that merriment myself but I am not going to say that this is one of the occasions.
With regard to the section of the Senate and House of Commons Act to which my hon. friend has directed our attention I may say quite frankly, and I may be overly naive in this frankness, that when the question arose of asking the hon. gentleman to undertake this assignment it certainly never dawned on my mind, or in the mind of anyone with whom this matter was discussed, that this action was one that was open to the interpretation which my hon. friend is seeking to give. It must be clear that the hon. member for Red Deer is receiving no emolument and no allowances. He is only going to get his expenses and, as I indicated yesterday, it would be unfair to expect him to undertake this particular assignment if his expenses were not paid.
I have checked with the officials of the privy council office and have been told that unless there is a contractual relationship, which would involve the payment of an emolument or of an allowance or of a consideration, there is no question of an order in council at all. The procedures advised by the treasury officers have been followed. I had no relationship with these arrangements myself except to suggest to the hon. member for Red Deer some of the things that were in our minds with respect to the reasons for which he was going to Africa.

Our authority, of course, is clear with regard to a situation of this kind. In the formulation of foreign policy or in the administration of the department I believe I have the authority under the general powers of administration to utilize those instruments, and this my hon. friend acknowledges, which will enable me and my colleagues to make the necessary policy assessments in this kind of situation. I have presumed, and I am told this is correct, that we have this authority under the departmental item which includes as well an amount for travelling expenses.
As my hon. friend knows, from time to time we engage individuals to do particular jobs in the department. We engage international law lawyers, university professors, in the summer particularly. They are, if members of parliament, clearly within the purport of the two sections to which my hon. friend has referred, but section 16 is the relevant section which calls for the payment of moneys by Canada. If I remember correctly, I do not think my hon. friend referred to this section at all. There is no public money, within the meaning of that section, to be paid to the individual in question. All he is receiving is his expenses, for which he must make a proper accounting to the department. That is the situation.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to partake at length in this debate. The question has arisen whether or not this action is a violation of the Senate and House of Commons Act and I should like to speak very briefly on that point. As has been pointed out by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, there will be no payment by the government out of public funds for any fees, wages, allowances, etc. So this puts the whole matter, in so far as the payment of expenses is concerned, into the same category as the payment of expenses to members of the House of Commons who are appointed as delegates to various interparliamentary bodies.
If the argument that has been advanced by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is valid, then I suggest that almost all members of the house are in violation of section 16 of the Senate and House of Commons Act. It is not by my choice that it is necessary for me to go into this matter at this time, but we know for example that the Canadian branch of the commonwealth parliamentary association is granted approximately $20,000 or $25,000 annually and out of that grant members of the House of Commons who go to the conferences, both regional and international, are paid their expenses for 20220-620}
Supply-External Affairs travelling and accommodation, plus a certain limited amount of money for certain out of pocket expenses.
With regard to those members who go to the United Nations as observers, I believe they are paid out of the funds of the Department of External Affairs. They are paid the actual amount of their travelling expenses from Ottawa to New York. In addition, accommodation is provided during their stay in New York and they are also paid something like $13 per diem for out of pocket expenses. This is true for the United Nations observers, for the commonwealth parliamentary association delegates, for the interparliamentary union delegates, for the NATO parliamentary delegates and in a number of other special cases such as the recent trip to NORAD and also to SAC. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we must accept the statement of the Secretary of State for External Affairs that only actual travelling expenses will be paid in this instance, and certainly this is completely in line with the practice that has been followed in the case of a great many members of the house.
I do not wish to deal at length with some of the other allegations that have been made. I want to say, however, to those members who have suggested that the Social Credit party is probably going to be tied to Liberal government policy-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: That is nothing new.


Mr. Monieith:: It always has been.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Chairman, if you can hear
me over the babbling of these hon. gentlemen-


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Why do you deny it so strongly?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: -I should like to say that the Social Credit party has always regarded its duty to Canada and Canadians as coming first-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: -and these allegations of being tied to or allied with any other party are completely unfounded. If you can hear me, Mr. Chairman, over these rumblings and mumblings that are going on to my right, I should like to point out that we were subjected to this same kind of abuse by the hon. gentlemen who now occupy the government benches when we gave our support time after time to the Progressive Conservative government when they were in office. We gave the reasons for that.

Supply-External Affairs


An hon. Member:: When?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: During the session of 1962. This policy has been followed regardless of which party the Canadian people happened to choose to occupy the government benches. I should like you to know also that the Canadian people generally have appreciated the measure of stability this party has given the last two parliaments. We do not intend to depart from that course, regardless of the insinuations or allegations that may be hurled at us.
I may say also, Mr. Chairman, that we are not impressed with these small time insinuations that are being made. As has been very well pointed out by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, there is a very critical situation in certain parts of Africa which requires not only the interest of but certain action by the government and by the parliament of this country. Surely, the purpose is quite obvious. These insinuations are to obtain some temporary political expedient and should be completely disregarded in view of the gravity of the situation. I do not want to get into all of this. I had no intention of taking part in this debate to defend anyone. However, when allegations are made that there may be a violation of the Senate and House of Commons Act to the extent that the hon. member for Red Deer has no right to sit in this house, I simply repeat that if this argument is valid then a majority of the members of this house who have at different times accepted money through one route or another from the public treasury to pay their expenses on trips to the United Nations, Europe, Africa or Asia in the course of the last 12 months, are in the same position. We do not, therefore, accept this allegation at all.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, I listened with a great deal of attention to the remarks of the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) and I have just heard those of the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Olson) about the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson), who is now in Africa as a delegate or ambassador of the federal government.
The minister stated yesterday that no one could represent Canada so well in Africa, inasmuch as the hon. member for Red Deer had greater experience concerning Ethiopia, and perhaps a few neighbouring countries, than anybody else in Canada. Granted, the hon. member for Red Deer did spend some 15 years in Ethiopia as the man in charge of the educational system. However, I feel the

minister could have found in the Canadian diplomatic corps, someone perfectly aware of what is happening in every African country.
Five or six day ago we learned that the Minister without Portfolio, the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville (Mr. Dupuis) has been in Africa for one month on behalf of the Canadian government. I wonder if he is selling three maple leaf flags on stickers for automobile bumpers.
Be that as it may, the Minister without Portfolio is in Africa. Why also send the hon. member for Red Deer? Could it be that the Minister without Portfolio is a useless member within the federal cabinet? We know that he obtained his post of minister merely because he fought Social Credit during the last federal election. Today why does the secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) appoint the hon. member for Red Deer as a double to the Minister without Portfolio in Africa?
The minister tells us: We have very restricted missions in Africa, and that is why we are sending the hon. member for Red Deer, and even in the Congo, where 800 people are kept as hostages, including 26 Canadians.
It should be noted that the hon. member for Red Deer does not speak French, while the language spoken in the Congo is not English but French. If the Minister without Portfolio was there, I would say that perhaps with his convictions, his stakes in this government, he might have some influence on political doings in the Congo. But no, we were told that the hon. member for Red Deer was going there.
Mr. Chairman, in those conditions, if it is decided that because the hon. member for Red Deer lived in Ethiopia for 15 years we will send him to the Congo or to some other African country where he had never gone before, I do not see why the Secretary of State for External Affairs could not send Mr. Michel Chartrand to represent the Canadian government in Castro's Cuba? Why not send Mr. Chartrand to Russia, for instance, where he would feel perfectly at home, where he has close friends and where he might perhaps get somewhere on behalf of the present Canadian government?
Mr. Chairman, it seems childish to me to give us such explanations. They should tell us frankly that the hon. member for Red Deer just has been done the favour of going on a visit to African countries at the expense of the Canadian people, because he and his group promised to support this government

until the next general election and to keep it in office. Then, the minister would be more honest with parliament.


Bert Raymond Leboe: It is not true.


David Réal Caouette: I hear the hon. member for Cariboo say "It is not true". He knows himself that it is true, and he is the one who opened the door for that situation between the Liberals and his own group.

Mr. Chairman, we have had enough of those electoral manoeuvres. This has been going on since 1963. I am not a Conservative and I support neither the Liberal nor the Conservatives, but the Liberals are sure that thanks to the support of the Social Credit group led by the hon. member for Red Deer, they will remain in power. That is the main reason why the hon. member has been sent to African countries he has never seen in his life. He will be visiting countries whose language he does not even understand, the Congo, for instance, where French is spoken.
Moreover, I wonder why the people of Canada have to pay for the trip made by the Minister without Portfolio, the hon. member for St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville. Why is a second representative being sent to Africa? What is the Minister without Portfolio doing in Africa at this time?
The Conservatives have forgotten to ask that, and so have other hon. members, but we all know that the minister has been visiting Africa for the past month. What is he doing there? If he is serving no useful purpose in Africa, he should be brought back to Canada to prevent him from being the shame of our country abroad.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about the Minister without Portfolio?


David Réal Caouette: Over here he stays quiet; over there he says too much. The hon. member for Red Deer does not say anything.

Mr. Chairman, I recognize that the hon. member for Red Deer has some of the qualities of a diplomat. What is keeping the present government from appointing him ambassador to some country or other, in Africa if need be? But let the government ask him to resign as a member of parliament.
A while ago mention was made that members of the opposition parties had been sent to the United Nations. Yes, that is true. One
Supply-External Affairs member of the Social Credit party, one member of our group was sent at intervals of six months, and each time there were two or three Conservative members and some ten Liberals. But when it comes to Africa, two are sent: the Minister without Portfolio and a member of the opposition, the leader of a minority party in the house. This is a feat never before witnessed in parliament. Can the minister give us examples of the appointment of Conservative members, or members of the New Democratic party, or other parties, who were delegated, under similar circumstances, anywhere in the whole wide world? We may have sent delegates to Formosa once, but I do not know under what auspices nor for what reason. At all events, I would not criticize the government for doing so at that time, for I am not even sure of the facts.
Mr. Chairman, they should stop treating us like a bunch of gapers. They should be frank with us instead of telling us fairy tales and cock-and-bull stories.
Let the Secretary of State for External Affairs tell us what it is all about. If he intends to appoint the hon. member for Red Deer ambassador in some country or other, let him appoint him right now and there will be no more questions.


Eric Alfred Winkler: Does the hon. member consider it might be possible that the hon. member for Red Deer is there to keep an eye on the Minister without Portfolio, or vice-versa?


David Réal Caouette: That is exactly what I said a moment ago. He is over there to check the other man or they are checking each other, I don't know which.

Mr. Chairman, let them stop stringing us a line. If they wish to appoint the hon. member for Red Deer as ambassador, if he has the required qualifications-if he has lived in Ethiopia for 15 years and if he wants to go back-let the Secretary of State for External Affairs say so frankly and appoint him ambassador to Ethiopia, to Emperor Haile Selassie-for he is an emperor-and let there be an end to the whole thing. Let them stop laughing at us in the house.
On the other hand, if the Secretary of State for External Affairs thinks that to keep his government in power he must absolutely use the good services of the hon. member for Red Deer; here again I wonder whether the method is very honest.

Supply-External Affairs
At any rate, we should get explanations as regards, not only the presence of the hon. member for Red Deer in Africa but also that of the Minister without Portfolio.
What is the Minister without Portfolio doing there?
Assuming the hon. member for Red Deer is there to see to the goodwill between the various African states, what is the Minister without Portfolio doing in Africa at the expense of the government? It is time that we know and that the minister gives us the information we want.


Some hon. Members:: Jealousy.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, I hear some members to my right saying that I speak through jealousy. As usual, these people talk through their hats.


Mr. Winch:: I welcome the opportunity of making a few remarks on this matter but I have no intention of taking the same approach as the hon. member for Oxford, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, the hon. member for Medicine Hat or the hon. member for Villeneuve. In their own way they have all raised most important matters regarding constitutionality, irregularity, payments to members of the house on this kind of job, and implied conspiracy between one party and another.
I do not want to discuss those angles because people better qualified than myself have already done so. Personally I wish the hon. member for Red Deer well during his three weeks in Africa. With his experience and contacts I hope he is able to do what is expected of him and what was anticipated of him when he was appointed to do this job. I hope he can bring back the information which the Secretary of State for External Affairs desires, and I think I would be less than honest if I failed to say that.
However, I would like to have the reasons behind such an appointment explained to me. I find it difficult to understand what kind of African bureau must exist in the Department of External Affairs. I find it difficult to understand that in that bureau there are not those with sufficient experience and knowledge to tackle this kind of job. I am not referring to the hon. member for Red Deer on a personal basis, but I am interested in what kind of advice the minister got when making this appointment. I do not pretend to be an expert on Africa, but in 1960 I had the privilege of attending the United Nations for six weeks,

and there meeting a great many African ambassadors, delegates and officials.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And the hon. member knows something about the situation in Africa too.


Harold Edward Winch: Eighteen months ago I had the opportunity of being with the commonwealth parliamentary association in Africa for six or seven weeks, and one thing I noted, both at the United Nations and in Africa, is that the African people in emerging nations have something which perhaps we as whites cannot appreciate, a prestige consciousness which gives them a certain psychological attitude. You go to Washington, you go to the United Nations, and the emerging African nations have such a sense of prestige consciousness they have to rent or own the most expensive homes; they have to own the most expensive cars; they demand diplomatic immunity as no other nation ever does. Here in our Commons area I believe there is only one car with a chauffeur, and that is for the Prime Minister. I have been to one state in Africa where, attached to the prime minister's office alone, there are 64 cars and 74 chauffeurs: prestige consciousness. There is the building of skyscrapers-incomplete:	prestige consciousness. As the minister must know, very serious trouble has arisen in some countries, particularly in the United States, with regard to diplomatic immunity and the major problem is not one of traffic tickets only, not one of passing through red lights or of accidents; it extends even to killing.
Prestige consciousness: we have to admit it is there, we have to understand it. I say this not only as a result of what I learned by attending meetings of the United Nations or of what I saw while in Africa; it has been confirmed by what I have read ever since then. We may not understand this attitude, but it is the product of long years when Africans were submerged by colonialism and dictatorship along with all that went with such a history. Now, as the Africans rise to independence and are able to take part throughout the world in conferences at the United Nations and so on, this feeling expresses itself. Is this not the understanding of the minister? Is this not the understanding of his African bureau?
Why then was the recommendation made that a member of the opposition, indeed a member of the smallest group represented in the opposition, should be sent to Africa in the name of the government in an attempt to find out and understand their problems,

rather than a cabinet minister or a high ranking official of the department? This question, to me, has a psychological aspect and I am afraid it is a very important one. It follows from the prestige consciousness which I have outlined. It stems from the efforts of Africans to show that they are at least the equal of the white man, if not better than the whites. I am disturbed that the man chosen for this mission is not a member of the government or a representative of parliament at top level. It is not a personal matter at all. I am surprised the man chosen should be a representative of the smallest group in this house.
I think the Secretary of State for External Affairs will appreciate the point I am making. I ask him whether my view is not shared by members of the African bureau of his department or by himself. If I am wrong, let him correct me, though may I say, Mr. Chairman, that I think I am correct. As a matter of fact I had this opinion driven home to me only two days ago at a reception here where there were a group of Nigerians. Because I dared to criticize them out of turn, they told me that if I was ever allowed in Nigeria they would put me on the next plane back. They do not like the white criticizing the black, this is the point I am making. I suggest the basis for a decision of the kind the minister has taken should be an understanding of the psychology of the African and of the prestige consciousness to which I have referred, and that the representative should have been chosen not so much on the basis of the knowledge and experience of the hon. member for Red Deer as on the acceptance and the prestige attaching to the choice.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I should like to say to the hon. gentleman, who has made a thoughtful contribution, that I have noted the points he has mentioned. I was aware of the problems he mentioned before a decision was taken in this case. Perhaps the hon. member will recall that one of the reasons in our minds was that the hon. gentleman in question, because of his long stay in Africa, had made acquaintance in a number of instances with personalities of great importance. This was the primary reason for the decision. We have in our African division and in the limited number of diplomatic missions in Africa, both resident and non-resident, very able officials and they will not regard the assignment as being in any way a reflection upon them, nor is it any reflection upon them. As the minister in charge of this de-
Supply-External Affairs partment I wish to say that in the African division here in Ottawa, and in the foreign service in Africa, there are officials of the highest calibre who are doing an outstanding job.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I realize that people on the opposition side who enter into this debate and are critical of the minister may lose an opportunity to be sent abroad as representatives of the government in the future.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: On the contrary.


Gordon Minto Churchill: With the sole exception of myself, because the minister earlier today committed himself to sending me abroad as soon as possible. I think the hon. gentleman will now find that members on the opposition side of the house will be seeking to establish their claim to represent the government overseas by letting us know the number of years they have spent in various countries. I want to draw to the minister's attention the fact that I have spent several years abroad in England and in Europe and that I have met the heads of state of most of the countries of western Europe, and in view of the lack of experienced personnel-


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Would the hon. gentleman allow me to point out that it is not so much what he did when he was in Europe as what he has done since?


Gordon Minto Churchill: There is such a scarcity of talent among the hon. gentleman's colleagues that I thought I would just draw this to his attention.
I wonder at the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Yet, why should I wonder? In an accident prone government every one of the members of the cabinet eventually becomes infected with the virus, and the Secretary of State for External Affairs is no exception. Travelling, as he has been for a number of weeks and months, in the stratosphere, he has finally been grounded; we have got him down to earth and he is now in communication with people on the terrestrial sphere-and this is where we want to keep him.
Earlier this afternoon the minister attempted to evade this one question which we raised yesterday, and which could have been settled yesterday had he returned to the house earlier than he did and sent out to the airport with Monsieur Henri Spaak, the distinguished representative of Belgium, one of his colleagues also interested in NATO, the Minister of National Defence or the Minister of Finance. Then he might have returned to the

Supply-External Affairs House of Commons yesterday and we could have had questions and answers on this matter and settled it promptly. But he did not do that; he came back to the house late in the afternoon. Then today he wanted to divert our attention to what he called much more important matters and he wanted to discuss the changes that have occurred in world affairs, in the country neighbouring us, and the atomic explosion that occurred in China. These, he said, were much more important matters than this particular one. Then when we pinned him down to discuss the problem that we raised yesterday, he came up with the story that the hon. member for Red Deer was on a mission abroad with regard to the safety of Canadians who are kept prisoner in the Congo.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not what I said.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think the safety of Canadians in the Congo overrides, at the moment, some of these other international situations, important as they are. If this had been the purpose of sending the hon. member for Red Deer abroad, we would have had a statement in the house when this occurred-


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not what I said.


Gordon Minto Churchill: -or we would have had a press release; because this minister is not reticent at all about telling us what he is doing. If you mention the word Cyprus, his breast swells like that of a pouter pigeon and he talks about the great peace keeping activities of Canada, and if action had not been taken in March there might have been serious trouble in Cyprus. You mention the United Nations and again he swells with pride and gives us a long discourse about his experience at the United Nations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Hear, hear.


Gordon Minto Churchill: But here, when the safety of Canadians in the Congo is concerned, it is an afterthought; he said nothing about it yesterday or the day before, and there was no press release. If the safety of Canadians in the Congo is uppermost in the mind of the minister-and I think it should be-why has he not some permanent official in Africa carrying on the negotiations on which he has now sent the hon. member for Red Deer?
The hon. member for Red Deer cannot go to Stanleyville, the minister told us this afternoon. He cannot even go anywhere in the Congo, I presume; he has to go to neighbouring countries. What does he know about

these countries neighbouring the Congo, except Ethiopia? The minister raised this in order to cover up what he has been doing. I thought he would give us an exact itinerary of the peregrinations of the modern Marco Polo from Red Deer. Why doesn't he tell us exactly where he is and where he is going? He dropped out some of the points which were brought to our attention by others. Why didn't he say something about Ghana? Is the hon. member going to Ghana?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: Yes.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Thanks. We have that on the record now.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I said that a long time ago.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Is he going to Cairo?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: Yes. That was mentioned earlier in the day.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I suggest that when he goes to Cairo he should be sent to Cyprus, which is not far away, to find out the information that is not available to the Minister of National Defence or to the Secretary of State for External Affairs with regard to a wounded Canadian soldier. Where is that wounded Canadian soldier? Is he hospitalized in Cyprus; is he on his way home; or is this just a minor matter? The hon. member for Red Deer is the particular man for the job; he has been in Ethiopia for 15 years and knows something about the troubles in that area. He is going to be in Cairo. Cyprus is not far away; send him there and he will bring back the information. Talk about carrying a message to Garcia. He is the man who will find out and let us know what the situation is there. I would like to ask the minister something else.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Why not send him to Timbuktu?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I would be very pleased if my colleague from Winnipeg North Centre was in Timbuktu to give him a welcome. Those two together would not only astonish the Africans-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I assure my hon. friend that I am not jealous of the offer that was made to him earlier today. He can go; I won't.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Let me ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who has already been asked the question: Was there nobody within the government circle who could go on this very important mission? This is what the Canadian people wonder about. We who

sit here in the House of Commons realize the lack of ability on the benches opposite, but the people of Canada have not had this brought to their attention by the government members. I bring it to the attention of the people of Canada now that the people who have the skill and ability are sitting on this side of the house, and one of them is the hon. member for Red Deer who now represents the government abroad.
I ask the minister, what credentials is this hon. member carrying with him? To whom does he present those credentials? When he meets the head of state in Ghana-where I understand they keep the opposition out of the house and in prison-and says he is a member of the opposition in the Canadian House of Commons, will he be treated in the way they treat members of the opposition in that country now? How does he represent the government when he goes to these other countries? What credentials does he carry?


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: He will say he is a Liberal.


Gordon Minto Churchill: My final question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs is this: How do we get a report to parliament from this hon. gentleman when he returns? Is there any way by which we may question him here in committee? I do not know. This is another problem for the committee on rules and procedure. How can the hon. member for Red Deer, representing the government abroad, be questioned here in the House of Commons with regard to the policy statements he has made on behalf of the government?


Mr. Jorgenson:: He will be a parliamentary secretary by then.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member permit a question? I wonder if he would look into the matter and see whether possibly he could move the adjournment of the house under standing order 26 the day the hon. member gets back, and we could spend the day getting a report.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Don't put the idea into his head.


Gordon Minto Churchill: That and other ideas may occur to us. But if we cannot get a report from the hon. member for Red Deer, will we get it from the Secretary of State for External Affairs; and will we then have to check with the hon. member for Red Deer, I would not say with regard to the accuracy of the report but with regard to the completeness of the report? These are questions
Supply-External Affairs which arise in the minds of hon. members, and I hope the Secretary of State for External Affairs, now he is back on earth with us, will give us satisfactory answers.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I listened with very great interest to my hon. friend. He will not misunderstand me if I say that there are occasions in this house when he does not provoke the kind of benevolent interest which attended his remarks during the last ten minutes or so. He has asked a number of questions and I would simply remind him that he himself, I think perhaps on several occasions-on one occasion, certainly, that I know-undertook one of these journeys. Perhaps it was not exactly in the same circumstances, warranting the attribution of being an expert in or knowing exceptionally well the area he was going to visit, but he will remember the report he made to this house on that occasion. We shall profit, I am sure, from the experience of the member for Red Deer in the same way we did when the hon. gentleman on that occasion reported to the house on his peregrinations. I am sorry if my remark on orders of the day today got under my hon. friend's hide when I said he had already arrived on the moon. As I indicated later in a qualification I just was speaking figuratively.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I thank the minister. I did not hear that remark earlier this afternoon but I am glad to have it now. So it did not get under my skin at all. I am very thick skinned anyway.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend should not tell me he is thick skinned.


Gordon Minto Churchill: But not thick headed.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, not thick
headed; I would never accuse my friend of that. However, I do not draw any conclusion from that remark either, because I do want to keep this debate on a very high plane. When the member for Red Deer comes back he will of course make a report. In the light of the report which he makes it will have to be determined whether it is possible at that particular moment for the government to make public some of his findings. I am sure that he himself will take the opportunity, as he does from time to time, to make a report on some of the things he has seen and some of the people with whom he has spoken.
My hon. friend did ask me one important question and that is the reason for which I rose. I am not saying that was the only
9800	HOUSE OF
Supply-External Affairs important question, but as I recall now I do not think there were any other important ones.


Mr. Nugent:: This is the only one you can answer, Paul.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That may be true; but I have a suspicion that I do not have much difficulty in answering some of the questions put, particularly from one quarter of the house. He asked: Did we have anyone in the department who could undertake a mission like this? I have already dealt with that question. My hon. friend has served in the executive arm of the government and he knows that in the Department of External Affairs there is a body of men and women who, by training, have a special qualification for the work assigned to them. This also applies, as I have already indicated, to the African division of the Department of External Affairs.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question. The minister is a little muddled here. I did not say anything about members of the Department of External Affairs. Please do not confuse me with the hon. member for Villeneuve.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I know my hon. friend did not; but I am, and that is the important part of my intervention which apparently the hon. gentleman has not understood. There were good reasons for the decision which was taken. One of the reasons for the decision was that the hon. gentleman had an acquaintanceship with the area in a special way because of his long period of residence there and because he knew certain personalities.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Was there no one else who could go?


Colin Cameron: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question. What particular experience has the hon. member for Red Deer had in those parts of Africa which have been listed this afternoon as the places he is visiting? Does he speak the Bantu languages?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not think that would necessarily be a disability. It would, of course, be helpful if the hon. gentleman could speak the language. I know my hon. friend went to Cairo the other day and had a very useful visit. He was able to draw some conclusions which were very valuable and was kind enough to give me some of them. 

But I do not think, unless I am wrong, that he speaks the language spoken there.


Colin Cameron: I would not expect to be appointed representative of the government of Canada when I do not speak Arabic and have very little experience of the area. However, I should still like to know what experience the hon. member for Red Deer has of the Congo, of Ghana and of some other areas like Kenya, for instance? Has he a close association with Jomo Kenyatta?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I dealt with that earlier. He will be seeing Mr. Kenyatta, who is head of the organization which Canada, the United States, Belgium and several other countries are counting on for assistance in connection with the situation in Stanleyville. But that was not the only reason for which the hon. gentleman was sent there. In fact it was not even the primary reason. It was because of our conversations with Mr. Spaak that this became a very useful thing for us to do, and it was done with the knowledge of that distinguished gentleman.
Now, my hon. friend asked me whether there was no other person who could have been sent. For my hon. friend's benefit-and I was not too anxious to say this-we have sent another person in connection with the particular situation in Leopoldville and Stanleyville. That person has gone to Brussels for purposes of trying, before he goes to Leopoldville, to review in particular the situation which might be expected in the period following the visit of the hon. member for Red Deer. He is a person in the department who has had long experience, as has the hon. gentleman, in Africa and who knows some of the personalities there. I am sure hon. members will appreciate why I cannot go any further.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friends laugh. In this particular situation the lives of 26 people from Canada are involved as well as 800 others.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Do not use it as a smokescreen.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I am sure my hon. friend understands that it is not desirable to give away facts which would prejudice a very important mission which I hope will be a successful one.
My hon. friend asked me a question about the Canadian soldier in Cyprus. I regret that

my hon. friend has less faith in the United Nations than I have. I regret that he does not think the Cyprus operation has been a useful one. That is his judgment. I am sure it is not the judgment of this house. It is not the judgment of the people of Canada; nor is it the judgment of those 108 soldiers who are conferring today in the west block on peace keeping matters.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege, the minister knows-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Let me answer the hon. gentleman's question.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am speaking to a question of privilege. The minister, who up to this point has been unexpectedly reasonable, is now falsifying the record. I was not finding any fault whatever with the United Nations operations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The official reports which I have now seen indicate that the Canadian soldier suffered a flesh wound in the arm. However, I am glad to report that his condition is not serious. At the time of the shooting he was not on duty and was unarmed. He apparently failed to stop when challenged by a Greek Cypriot policeman, who did not recognize him as a Canadian soldier. When warning shots were fired he ran toward the Turkish sector. It was then the firing took place which resulted in the arm wound.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. It being five o'clock it is my duty to leave the chair in order to permit the house to proceed to private members' business.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that a communication has been received as follows:
Ottawa, November 5, 1964
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Hon. Robert Taschereau, P.C., Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 5th November, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be.
Sir.
Your obedient servant,
A. G. Cherrier
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed
Bank of Western Canada on today's order paper, namely private bills, notices of motions for papers, public bills.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, September 3, consideration of the motion of Mrs. Konantz for the second reading of Bill No. S-6, to incorporate bank of western Canada, and the motion proposed thereto by Mr. Perron.
ITranslation]
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, today, for the third or fourth time since the beginning of this session, Bill No. S-6 entitled, An act incorporating the bank of western Canada is submitted to this house. This bill originated in the Senate, and the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Perron) proposed an amendment thereto that this bill be not now read a second time but that it be read this day six months.
On several occasions during the discussion on this bill we pointed out that three bills for the incorporation of banks were introduced in the Senate and House of Commons.
Two were passed by the Senate, namely, Bill No. S-13 entitled "An act to incorporate the Laurentide bank of Canada", and the present bill incorporating the bank of western Canada.
Another group of citizens request this incorporation of a bank to be known as the bank of British Columbia. The Senate committee on banking and commerce has been studying this bill for several months; the Senate took no action respecting this third bank, and it does not seem at present that it intends to take any more action about it than it has in the past. We stated in this house, and clearly enough so our remarks could be understood by the members of the other place, that our work would be facilitated if we could examine those three bills at the same time, that is Bills S-6, S-13, and S-20, which deal with the incorporation of three banks.	__
The members of this house are elected by the people; they represent ridings and consequently are entitled to a minimum of consideration by the members of the other place.
Since members of the house have on several occasions expressed the wish to study the three bills at the same time, the senators should at least do something to comply with this wish.

Bank of Western Canada
But far from sitting and working to submit this third bill, the members of the other place are constantly taking holidays. The Senate sits two, three or four days and then takes a month's holiday. It sits again and takes an! other holiday. It has been adjourned for a month and today it is taking another month's holiday.
If the senators do not want to sit, they should tell us so we would refrain from sending bills for their approval, since they are not apparently willing to accept them.
What right have the senators to reject bills brought forward by the people, for the House of Commons' approval, as they are doing when they refuse to defer those bills to this house for study?
By acting this way, Mr. Speaker, I say that the other place is assuming powers which it does not have, that of blocking the passage of legislation, because those powers belong to the elected representatives of the people and not to persons who owe their appointment to the Senate to mere political partisanship.
If members of the other place want to keep on taking holidays, adjourning and not doing their work, then, in my opinion, they themselves are bringing on all the reflections cast upon their institution.
So, when members of this house express the wish to study and analyse those three bills at the same time, I feel this is a perfectly legitimate request and one which the Senate ought to take into consideration.
We have no objection to seeing the banking and commerce committee of the Senate take into serious and due consideration Bill No. S-20, an act to incorporate the bank of British Columbia, but at least let it meet for such a study.
At the rate things are now going, the Senate is not meeting and the senators are enjoying perpetual holidays. Now, how can they pass a bill if they are never in Ottawa? The House of Commons should at least remind the senators now and then that if they want the Senate to keep existing, they must fulfil their duty toward the Canadian people and toward the House of Commons.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Before the hon. member goes any further with his remarks, I take the liberty of pointing out to him the provisions of a section of the standing orders which prohibit him from criticizing the procedure of the other place. I suggest that he should refer to standing order 35 and confine his remarks to the bill now under study.
[Mr. Gregoire.l
f Mr. Gregoire: Mr. Speaker, one of my colleagues is asking me whether we are entitled to speak of the dead. In my opinion, we should leave the dead bury their own dead; I think this would be the best solution.
At any rate, I was able to observe one thing, Mr. Speaker, without being out of order, and it is that the Canadian parliament as a whole is made up of various bodies and that in order to allow progress to be made in the business of the entire parliament, including the House of Commons and the other place, all those bodies must co-operate and do their share of the work to be carried out.
Now, it is noted-and I do not think I need name anyone in particular-that at a certain time of the week, that is, Thursday evening from five to six, the business of the house is brought to a standstill. This is a waste of time both for the House of Commons and all members of parliament. Why? Because one of the parliamentary institutions, namely the House of Commons, is not in a position to play its part entirely.
Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the House of Commons-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member
knows that he cannot do indirectly what our standing orders forbid him to do directly.
, It is certainly not permissible for him to criticize indirectly the procedure of the other | place, as he is trying to do now, when standing order 35 forbids him to do so directly.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Since we are now considering an amendment to Bill No. S-6 moved by the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Perron), do you not think that the hon. member for Lapointe has the right to state the purpose of the amendment, which is to refer the bill to a committee or to give it the six months' hoist?
In my opinion, the hon. member has the right to say why we seek to give the bill the six months' hoist since we would then know (where we stand.
I should like you to give a ruling on this natter, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The Chair's ruling consists merely in calling the attention of (he hon. member who has the floor to standing order 35.
f Mr. Gregoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to read standing order 35, and then I suggest (you will realize that my observations are not (altogether irrelevant.
\ It says:
\No member shall speak disrespectfully of Her Majesty, nor of any of the Royal Family,...

You must agree with me that this is not what I am doing at present.
.. .nor His Excellency or the person administering the government of Canada; nor use offensive words against either house, or against any member thereof.
I am not using offensive words. I am just saying Mr. Speaker, that the House of Commons has expressed, on several occasions, the desire to consider those three bills together and that, on the other hand, we cannot do so because one is being kept over there.
There is nothing offensive in that, Mr. Speaker. I fail to see how it could be offensive, since it is true. When I say that the members in the other place have been on holidays now for a month it is not offensive; it is the truth, and they know so. If they feel offended, then they should not go on holidays.


David Réal Caouette: When they sit, they sleep anyway.


Gilles Grégoire: When I say that they come back and sit two days and then go back on holidays for another month, under the rules you will admit that it is not offensive; it is true, they do go on holidays. If they feel offended, they should not go on holidays.
I think that I am in order and I have no intention of offending them.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. The hon.
member has submitted his arguments and so has the hon. member for Villeneuve.
The argument of the hon. member for Lapointe, who stated that a remark cannot be offensive if it is true, is unacceptable.
I refer the hon. member to quotation 381 of Beauchesne's which provides that the debate on the second reading of a bill must deal with the principle of the bill. I think that when he speaks about the consideration given or denied to the bill at the other place, he is wandering from the principle of the bill or the motion now before the house.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I was more particularly referring to the amendment providing that the said bill should not be read a second time, but that it be postponed for a period of six months.
This is what I am talking about. Why give it the six months' hoist? It seems to me that this amendment was moved long ago and it has already received a six months' hoist. The other place had begun to delay the sending of the third bill, Bill No. S-20, to the House of Commons. We thought that six months would have been time enough to enable us to receive this bill. However, today
Bank of Western Canada we are surprised to learn that six months have not been enough.
Therefore, it may perhaps be necessary to ask for the second reading to be postponed for a year in order to give those who are supposed to send us the third bill I mentioned, more time for consideration.
Mr. Speaker, that is the reason-I want to make that clear-why we are asking to postpone the second reading of this bill until a later date.
We feel that we will then better fulfil our duty as members of the House of Commons, as representatives of the people-and I insist on the expression "representatives of the people"-because we will have all the facts before us.
To our minds, to have all the facts before us is to have the three bills, not one or two, but three.
We do not oppose second reading of the bill as such. We do not oppose the setting up of other banks in Canada. But we are against the fact that we are denied the opportunity of studying the three bills at the same time.
I insist on letting it be known, clearly, categorically, and unequivocally, so that the members of the other place might know that we do not want to be handicapped in our work with regard to private bills.
We express the wish, and I trust there is in this nothing offensive, that in the vicinity of this house our request be taken into serious consideration so that we may receive all bills bearing on corporations and new banks, in order that we may be able to do justice, not only to the members of the house who will study the bills in committee, but also to those who have submitted petitions with a view to obtaining a bank charter for they too suffer serious detriment as a result of what goes on in a certain branch of this parliament, and suffer losses through ensuing delays.
That should be taken into consideration. That is why I make this appeal through you, Mr. Speaker-for I know you have the opportunity of meeting the parties concerned-that the people from the other place send us Bill No. S-20 as soon as possible in order that second reading of the three bills on banks might be proceeded with and that they be studied in committee; thus we might give satisfaction to all interested parties who are entitled to such consideration.


Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, in taking part in this discussion,



S804 HOUSE OF

[Stage Direction]
Bank of Western Canada I thought it might be useful first of all to put on the record a few facts about British Columbia, the province most likely to be affected by the passage or otherwise of the legislation before us. Personally, I represent the riding of New Westminster which is the most populous riding in Canada west of Toronto. It lies in the centre of the lower mainland of British Columbia, and the lower mainland of British Columbia is an area in which we have now more people concentrated per square mile than is the case in comparable areas in either Belgium or Holland.
There are very good reasons, Mr. Speaker, why British Columbia should have had long ago, and certainly now should have, a large financial institution with its head office in our province. I should like to put before you some statistics concerning British Columbia and its commercial operation. British Columbia, of course, is third in size of all the provinces and third in size with regard to population. Excluding the lakes, it is actually a larger province than Ontario but its most important financial community, Vancouver, is isolated from the centres of financial activity in Canada, namely Toronto and Montreal, by almost a continent. It is in those areas of Toronto and Montreal, of course, in which we find the head offices of our leading financial institutions.
Mr. Lloyd:: May I raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Halifax on a point of order.


John Edward Lloyd: My point is that the bill before us has to do with the incorporation of the bank of western Canada. I believe, generally speaking, that under the rules of relevancy we should be considering the merits of this private bill and the matters which it contains. I do not believe we should be discussing the importance of a bank being located elsewhere or established by some other people.


Barry Mather: In reply, may I say that I am directing my remarks to the point that several bills are on the order paper which affect western Canada, and particularly British Columbia. I was going to go on and try to prove that we cannot consider one without keeping in mind the other two bills which bear on this point.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: With regard to the point of order raised by the hon. member for Halifax, I would say that the rules of the house allow us to consider only one thing at a time and the matter now before the


house is Bill No. S-6, dealing with the incorporation of the bank of western Canada. Even though there are other bills which may come up and which may be affected, directly or indirectly, by this particular measure, I suggest the hon. member should confine himself as much as possible to the principle of the particular bill before us now.


Mr. Douglas:: Mr. Speaker, may I also point out that there is a motion which, as I recall, provides for a six months' hoist. It seems to me this has some relationship to other bills which are coming before us having to do with the incorporating of banks, and it may be an explanation why the mover of the motion suggested a six months' hoist. There is some relevancy to the other banking legislation.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: That is the interpretation of the hon. member, but the only things before the house are the bill and the amending motion, and the amending motion makes it still more restrictive and does not in any way enlarge the scope of the bill.


Barry Mather: Keeping your view in mind, Mr. Speaker, may I say that in my opinion B.C. is a section of western Canada and anything affecting western Canada affects B.C. However, I shall try to abide by your ruling. Present business activity in B.C. was well illustrated by the brief recently presented by that province to the hon. gentlemen in the other place. It revealed that while the population of that part of western Canada which is B.C. is somewhat less than the population of the combined area of the Atlantic provinces, nevertheless it has a labour force 2.5 per cent greater, a labour income 55 per cent greater, retail sales 21 per cent greater, factory shipments 134 per cent greater and cheques cashed 238 per cent greater than the combined Atlantic provinces.


Mrs. Konantz:: On a point of order, I would like to ask why the hon. gentleman is discussing the facts of B.C. and not the proposed bank of western Canada which will have its headquarters in Manitoba and will be primarily concerned with that and the other two provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta?


Barry Mather: Mr. Speaker, I tried to make it clear that in my opinion we cannot consider this bill without taking into consideration the needs of B.C., which is part of western Canada. I think that the realities of B.C.'s international and national trade position differ greatly from those of the areas in the central provinces which are served by the existing

private banks, and there is great need for the establishment of a bank in western Canada, particularly in B.C., to serve the interests of that area.
Having said that, I want to express my opposition to the passage of the bill before us and my support for the amendment, which I understand would give a six months' hoist to the bill. My contention is that this bill cannot logically be considered unless we keep in mind with it the other two bills which have been before the other place. The people in western Canada to my knowledge, particularly those in B.C., have never asked for the establishment of the bank which this bill would establish. On the other hand the people in that part of western Canada which is B.C. have overwhelmingly endorsed the idea of the establishment of a provincial bank of British Columbia.
As hon. members know, the government of B.C. and the official opposition in that province, although they differ upon many matters are united in their desire for the establishment of the bank of British Columbia, for its incorporation, and for the provision that it should have the origin of its finances in that province.
As hon. members also know, approval of the incorporation of that institution was rejected-


John Edward Lloyd: I appreciate how the hon. member may feel about the possible development of a bank in British Columbia but I think he should be required to relate his observations to reasons why this bill should or should not pass, or to reasons why the amendment should or should not be accepted. We are getting far away from the intent and purpose surrounding the introduction of a private bill during this hour.


Mr. Barnett:: Mr. Speaker, I find it difficult to understand why this point of order should be raised by a member from Halifax, inasmuch as the area under discussion is rather remote from the area he represents. Perhaps he does not appreciate the points of view the hon. member for New Westminster is trying to express. It seems to me that in considering the principle of this bill the general impact of banking proposals in the region which some of us over here represent should be considered.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. May I suggest the hon. member is participating in the debate rather than making a contribution on the point of order raised by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd). On that point
Bank of Western Canada may I say it is a basic rule that we have to be relevant at all times, but as Beauchesne says it is not very easy to determine to what extent the rule has to be applied. The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Mather) knows the rule and I would ask him to try to relate the remarks he is now making to the principle of the bill.


John Edward Lloyd: I have a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Some reference was made to the fact that because I was a member for Halifax this should deter me from raising a question of order. Surely that is fantastic. I am concerned with the procedures of the house and it makes no difference whether I come from-I was going to say Red Deer- B.C. or Nova Scotia.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the hon. member for Medicine Hat rising on a new point of order?


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: Yes.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Before he does so may I say there was not a point of privilege in the matter raised by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd), and I suggest we forget that aspect in our discussions. I am wondering if the hon. member for Medicine Hat is rising on a new point of order, because the Chair is under the impression that the first one had been disposed of.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: I merely wish to say that on two occasions the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) raised a point of order attempting to confine or restrict the area of discussion chosen by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Mather). I heard nothing in the remarks of the hon. member for New Westminster that led me to believe he had violated the rule of relevancy. On page two of the bill before us there is a list of names of directors. I have not counted them, but there are about 20 from the province of B.C. Surely that is an indication that this bank intends to extend its operations into B.C. Everything the hon. member for New Westminster has said concerns the financial community within B.C., and therefore he is completely in order.


Barry Mather: I would like to thank hon. members who in their wisdom support my contention that B.C. is a part of western Canada. I do not have much more to say, but I do want to affirm there can be no doubt that, in sending this bill to us, the other place has acted contrary to the wishes of


Bank of Western Canada the vast majority of British Columbians, whose enthusiasm for a real provincial bank of British Columbia is so great that they are already offering to subscribe money in such volume that the province will likely have to put up only a mere 10 per cent of the share capital.
1 think there is no question but that the passage of the bill before us for the creation of the bank of western Canada would mitigate against the successful establishment and growth of the proposed provincial bank of British Columbia. Speaking as a representative from British Columbia I think the action taken in the other place on the legislation before us has resulted in making more difficult the satisfaction of the aspirations of British Columbians. It seems to me to be highly questionable, to put it mildly, that some gentlemen who have no electoral responsibility and who either have had, or retain, private banking interests should sit in judgment upon the applications of three banks-two private and one public-and for them to bless two and stymie the third. I think that in doing so they have done a deep injustice to the people of British Columbia by withholding permission for the establishment of a bank capable of doing great service for British Columbia.


Mr. Basford:: May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for New Westminster is clearly out of order in reflecting upon the proceedings in the other place, contrary to the terms of citation 149 of Beauchesne. It is clearly stated there that reflections upon proceedings in the other place are out of order. Moreover, the hon. member imputed motives to hon. gentlemen in the other place-


An hon. Member:: They deserve it.


Stanley Ronald Basford: -and I suggest that for the sake of the record it might be well to point out two facts. First, the measure concerning the bank of western Canada received first reading in the other place on February 27 of this year. The bill concerning the Laurentide bank received first reading on March 24 and the bill having to do with the bank of British Columbia received its first reading on May 6. These three bills came into the other place at different times of the year and it would seem to me only proper that they should come out of it at different times.
The other point I wish to make is this. It is simply that the committee on banking and commerce in the other place met only yesterday to consider the bill about which the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. 
/Mather) is complaining, and that committee Jis prepared to meet again as soon as British / Columbia produces further evidence.


Frank Howard: I wonder if I may say a word on that part of the point of order which had to do with references to the proceedings of the Senate. Do I understand that the citation j referred to by the hon. member was citation 147?


Stanley Ronald Basford: Citation 149.


Frank Howard: In any event, the citation is an extensive one and if I were to undertake to read it now I would not be able to comment on the point of order because you, Mr. Speaker, would wish us to proceed with the debate. But it has been a long standing practice, as some hon. members know who have taken part in the marathon debates on certain private bills with which we do not now have to deal, to use as a basis for argument for or against any particular private bill, evidence given before a committee of the other place, because this is the only information in detail we have, apart from that which may be provided by the sponsor of a bill on second reading. I submit it is entirely in order to use the evidence taken before a committee of the Senate which may have heard this or any other private bill, to bolster arguments for or against the principle of the bill.
With regard to the information given by the hon. member as to what is taking place in the Senate, I am afraid some of us are not so enamoured of the other place as to pay a great deal of attention to what is going on there. But it is a fact that the Senate is now proceeding to deal with the bill relating to the bank of British Columbia, I think this is all the more reason why the sponsor of the bill now before us should agree to postpone or withdraw it until we can deal with all three of these measures in an orderly fashion.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Basford) is well taken. The Chair did bring to the attention of one hon. member who participated in the debate the standing order itself, and there are, of course, various citations which also deal with the matter. Citation 147(1) says:
Allusion to debates in the other house are out of order and there are few orders more important than this for the conduct of debate and for obI serving courtesy between houses.

i Citation 149(b) says that a member while speaking must not-
-refer to any debate in the Senate, but he may refer to the official printed records of the upper house, though they have not been formally communicated to the lower house.
Citation 157(3) (a) says it is out of order to read extracts in the debate if they allude to debates in the other house of parliament. These citations are all fundamentally the same and I think they reflect a basic rule of debate which members with experience in this chamber would wish to recognize. In view of this, I invite the hon. member who has the floor to keep the standing order and these citations in mind and to restrict his * consideration to the principle of the bill.


Colin Cameron: On the point of order, may I point out that the reference was not to debates in the other place but to proceedings before the banking and commerce committee, the printed record of which is a public record.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I believe it is the
same thing-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, no.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: It is the suggestion of the Chair that members of the house in their speeches may not refer to proceedings in the Senate-I believe that is the rule-or "reflect on the proceedings in the Senate". Perhaps that is a better way of putting it.


Bert Raymond Leboe: I wonder if I might point out that citation 149(b) reads:
-but he may refer to the official printed records of the upper house, though they have not been formally communicated to the lower house;


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I suggest that we move on and continue our discussion of the measure being studied by the house. The point just raised by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Leboe) is highly hypothetical. The citation says a member may refer to the printed record of the upper house, but I did not hear the hon. member who has the floor refer to the official record of the upper house. I would ask him to continue his comments.


Gilles Grégoire: On a point of order-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: A point of order has been raised and the Chair has given a ruling. If there is a new point of order it can be considered but I suggest the point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Basford) has been sufficiently discussed and that we should go on with the speech of the
Bank of Western Canada hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Mather).


Stanley Ronald Basford: My point of order did not refer to reading from the record of Senate committees. It referred to the hon. member for New Westminster making imputations as to the motives of senators. Had he referred to the record of the committee of the other place he would have found that the premier of British Columbia supported the incorporation of these two private banks.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I rise on an entirely new point of order in connection with the point of order raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Basford).
The hon. member mentioned that the motion for first reading of Bill No. S-20 had been carried after the motion for first reading of the two other bills on May 7.
Mr. Speaker, if the motions for first reading of these bills were carried on May 7, it proves beyond a doubt that the other place did not proceed with dispatch inasmuch as seven months have elapsed since then.


Barry Mather: I want to thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the other members of the house who have given me the benefit of their counsel.


Colin Cameron: For using up the time.


Barry Mather: What I have to say now will come as somewhat of an anticlimax. I will make one more reference to the subject I mentioned earlier. Although I am one who, perhaps for sentimental reasons, has some affection for the gentlemen of the other place, it is actions such as this which affect bills to incorporate banks that make me wonder whether it will not bring the gentlemen of the other place into disrepute if they are continued, because they go so contrary to the will of a great many people in this country, and certainly a great many people in western Canada.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate that on every logical ground there is a need in western Canada, and particularly in British Columbia, for a bank of British Columbia with its head offices in Vancouver and its funds in or from western Canada, and particularly British Columbia. As the passage of the bill before us-disregarding for the moment the amendment-would delay the creation of this very important service for
9808	HOUSE OF
Bank of Western Canada that part of western Canada which is British Columbia, I oppose it.


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, it so happens that my viewpoints are not too distant from those expressed by the members who have indicated their concern about the actions of the other place.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John Edward Lloyd: I feel, however, that our tactics have been completely wrong. I think it is clear that there are two companies here who have put forward their propositions to incorporate a bank and comply with all the conditions of the Bank Act. I believe that is obvious. Therefore I see no reason why in this private members' hour we should not recognize the efforts of private entrepreneurs to enter the competitive banking field of Canada when they have all the indications of being successful ventures that are well organized and can meet all the requirements that we normally impose upon banks in regard to the purposes to which they commit themselves.
If this house were to pass these two bills would we not have established a very solid criterion of legislative procedure, and would not the case be strengthened for forcing the other place, if that is required, and certainly to strengthen the arguments in this house to require anybody opposing the establishment of a bank of British Columbia to state specifically why they oppose it at this time? I suggest that the motion to defer this matter for six months defeats the very purpose of its proponents, and I earnestly suggest that we should pass this particular bill and give favourable consideration to the bill with respect to the Laurentide bank of Canada-


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the hon. member a question?


John Edward Lloyd: -withdraw this motion and then proceed-


Gilles Grégoire: May I ask the hon. member a question?


John Edward Lloyd: Not at the moment; when I have finished my remarks. We could then proceed and see what happens with respect to the third bill. I think hon. members would have a much stronger case if they were to allow the passage of these two bills, rather than forcing the identification of the reasons for passing these two bills and holding up the other one.
IMr. Mather.]


Mr. L. P. Antoine Belanger (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I too wish to speak against the passing of this bill.


Auguste Choquette: Why?


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: For several reasons which I shall give you in a moment if you will bear with me.
First, I want to say that I entirely agree with the statement made by the hon. member for Lapointe (Mr. Gregoire) concerning the work in the other place. I also have another very important reason for opposing the passing of this bill. As all hon. members know, the revision of the Bank Act will be proceeded with next year. So, I do not see why all those banks that are asking for new charters could not wait until we have studied the amendments to the Bank Act to get these new charters from parliament.
But my main objection to the granting of a new charter to the bank of western Canada is based, as I mentioned when the bill was brought before the house, on the methods used in the banking system itself. I have already attempted to explain that such methods are arbitrary, anti-democratic and anti-social privileges.
I have shown that, with their ability to create and suppress credit, the banks hold such great powers that they control all the people's business and even the government. This means that the country or the provinces are actually governed by the banks, that is by citizens who have not been elected by the people; and we dare call our parliamentary system a democratic system.
At any rate, the reasons which led me before to vote against this bill still prevailing, I shall, therefore, continue to oppose the passing of this bill.
Quite sincerely, I do not see why I should vote in favour of extending to some citizens certain rights which, I feel, are prejudicial to the people.
The power to withdraw or create credit should no longer be left in the hands of private interests; instead, it should be assumed by the government, which could use it with the interests of the people and of the country as its first concern. As it is, that power benefits only a few and is prejudicial to all.
That would be the only way of making it possible for the provinces to meet their increasingly heavy obligations without plunging into debt the future generations and enslaving them even before they are bom.


Mr. Depuly Speaker:: Order. It has just been drawn to my attention that the hon. member has already participated in this debate; if he will refer to Hansard, he will see that he spoke on this bill on August 6.


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, I must say quite sincerely that I thought I had spoken on the motion for second reading of the bill, not on the amendment. I do not think I made any remarks on the amendment but I will abide by your ruling if you say I did. Personally, I feel I participated in the debate on second reading but not on the amendment.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question?


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, I should like very much to get an answer to the question I just asked you, as to whether or not I spoke on the amendment?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: If the hon. member will refer to Hansard of August 6, on page 6491, he will find that he spoke for nine minutes.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I have a few very brief remarks to make on this bill so that we may have time to pass it, if hon. members opposite are willing to show their goodwill.
I also wish to point out that the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Belanger) wanted to speak a second time in order to continue the filibuster against this bill.
I also wish to point out to the house that the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Caouette) virulently denounced the Conservative filibuster on interim supply while he took the floor on four occasions himself during the discussion of those estimates.
Mr. Speaker, one wonders how sincere are those people? One wonders whether they are not playing the fool?


Louis-Philippe-Antoine Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, a while ago you called the hon. member for Westminster (Mr. Mather) to order when he was speaking about British Columbia.
I suggest that the hon. member for Lotbi-niere is wandering far away from the subject before us, since he is dealing with the behaviour of the members in the house, and I would ask you to call him to order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: That is right; the hon. member for Lotbiniere knows that he must
Royal Assent
limit his remarks to the principle of the bill now before us.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I only wanted to say that I regret the filibustering tactics of our friends opposite, their attitude since they have been sitting in this house.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order.


Bert Raymond Leboe: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Bert Raymond Leboe: We are not going to have the question at this very moment. Mr. Speaker, in speaking to this bill I should like to mention one or two matters which I think are mighty important in connection with banking. The bill we have before us relates particularly to the fact that when we have what is known as a tight money policy we find this policy is instituted primarily because there are inflationary tendencies within certain areas of Canada. The areas which are considered inflationary or as having inflationary tendencies are lumped together with those places in Canada which actually have a deficiency in the money supply.
Mr. Speaker, may I call it six o'clock?



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house In the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bill:
An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1965.


Mr. Speaker:: It is my duty pursuant to provisional standing order 39A to inform the house that the questions to be raised at ten o'clock p.m. are as follows:
9810	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State 1. The hon. member tor Halifax (Mr. Regan), shipping, reported lack of service to Caribbean.

And the second question: the hon. member for St. Mary, labour conditions-increase in unemployment in the province of Quebec.

The house will now revert to the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Lucien Lamoureux: It is the understanding of the Chair that vote No. 1 of the Department of External Affairs stands and that we are to proceed with the Department of the Secretary of State. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $363,600.
Hon. Maurice Lamonlagne (Secretary of State):: Mr. Chairman, the consideration
of the estimates of the department and the agencies for which I am responsible presents unusual problems because of the reorganization which has taken place since the main estimates were tabled. The department itself has been divided into two main sections headed by two deputy ministers. The deputy registrar general is now responsible for all matters which used to be under the Department of the Secretary of State, with the exception of the translation bureau but including the administration of the Patent, Copyright and Trade Marks Acts, for which the Minister of Justice is now responsible.
With regard to that section of the department which is still under my responsibility, I have nothing in particular to report to the committee except to say that a substantial revision of the Companies Act is now being considered in the other place and will soon be ready, I hope, for study and examination by the House of Commons. The under secretary of state is responsible for the translation bureau and the national museum, which has been transferred from the department of


northern affairs to my department. He advises me also on questions of administration and financial policy affecting the various agencies reporting to me. I will enumerate those agencies later on.

At this stage, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words concerning the bureau for translations. In that service, the work load has tremendously increased these last few years. I think that the development of government activities, the extension of parliamentary works and the increase in the number of royal commissions, account in great part for this situation.
The bilingualism policy adopted by the government is another important incidental factor. The simultaneous interpretation branch was also literally snowed under. Under such conditions, it is no wonder that the quality of the work has fallen down, in certain cases, in spite of the dedication of the staff to whom I must pay tribute. We are taking various steps to remedy that situation. The salaries have been increased and an office was set up in Montreal to make recruitment easier. We hope to be able to add at least 50 new employees to the staff during the next few months. In order to promote recruitment, special courses are offered to those who would like to become translators or interpreters but who do not have all the required qualifications. The purpose is not only to increase the staff, but production must be improved and also the quality of services, and that is why we intend to proceed with a reorganization where it is desirable in the bureau for translations.
As a first step, we are now setting up a terminology centre under the direction of Mr. Pierre Daviault who is leaving his position as superintendent of the bureau of translations. We are very happy to take advantage in this way of the long experience acquired by Mr. Daviault in the field of recruiting, at a time when scientific techniques change so quickly and the translation of specialized vocabularies causes difficulties. The main purpose of this new centre will be to keep up with the evolution of specialized terminology, by consulting appropriate publications and keeping in contact with similar organizations existing in other countries and on the international level as well.
It will establish a terminology filing system, as well as a catalogue and a library of technical reference works. It will also publish occasionally glossaries of which the public

will be able to take advantage, in accordance with a recommendation of the Glassco commission.
In this way the terminology centre will be in a position to render a great many services. It will save time for translators; it will help to improve the quality of translations and standardize the technical vocabulary in Canada, in both official languages.
In short, valuable improvements have been made recently within the bureau for translations. Other reforms are initiated and I shall report on them next year.
In closing that part of my remarks I want to say that the government intends to make of the bureau for translations a fully efficient agency, because it is an essential part of our bilingualism program.

I now come to the agencies for which I am responsible to parliament. Members of the committee will remember that my predecessor, the present Minister of Transport, was responsible for the following agencies: The civil service commission, the chief electoral officer, the B.B.G., the C.B.C., the national film board, the national gallery, the archives and the national library. All those agencies still report to the Secretary of State. In addition I continue to be responsible for the centennial commission and the economic council, as I was as president of the privy council. The Department of Public Printing and Stationery now reports to me instead of to the Minister of Defence Production. Finally, the Canada Council reports to me and not to the Prime Minister as it used to do.
I am quite sure that all members of the committee will agree that it would become quite bothersome if I were to make separate statements on each individual agency. Therefore I propose to make only three general statements covering them all and outlining the main programs and plans which concern them individually. Such a progress report will, I think, give a much better idea of what government and its agencies are trying to do in those fields, and will provide to the members of the committee some kind of general framework which will put them in a much better position to appreciate what is being done or contemplated for the immediate future. I hasten to say that this approach is not intended in any way to restrict hon. members' right to discuss as long as they wish each individual item of those estimates.
In this first statement I intend to refer briefly to two different agencies which are
Supply-Secretary of State quite unrelated to each other, the economic council and the civil service commission. When the estimates of my department, those of these two agencies and of the chief electoral officer, have been approved, I propose at the proper occasion to make two other general statements, one on the cultural policy of the government and on the so-called cultural or information agencies, the other on centennial preparations and the centennial commission.
The economic council of Canada held its first meeting on January 14 and 15, 1964, in Ottawa. The government is very proud to have succeeded in securing the services of Dr. John Deutsch, Louis Couillard and Arthur Smith to act respectively as chairman, vice chairman and full time director of the council. We also feel that the other 25 members of the council represent very well all the major components of the private sector of our economy. In addition I am satisfied that the council has succeeded in getting an efficient and devoted staff.
All the members of the committee who are interested in the activities of the council have already, I am sure, carefully read its annual report which was tabled on July 15. I do not have very much to add to the information contained in that report. In its first year of activities the council has concentrated its attention on the development of its internal organization, the building up of a solid research base and the establishment of liaison arrangements with similar provincial agencies and the main private sectors of the economy.
The highest priority in this program of work has been assigned to the preparation of the first of its annual reviews of Canada's medium and long term prospects and problems. This review will deal with the tasks and goals of the Canadian economy for the next five years up until 1970. It will be published in December.
Work is also under way on a number of other projects and studies. Working committees on economic growth and problems of adjustment, on labour management relations, on productivity and on industrial research and technology have been established to facilitate the development of this work. The council is sponsoring a national conference on labour management relations to be held in Ottawa next week. This conference will mark a new approach in the promotion of labour management consultation and will be based on research studies which are being specifically prepared by leading experts. In addition, the council is sponsoring a number of special studies by outside experts. All this work and

Supply-Secretary of State analysis will provide not only the basis of advice to the government but also valuable information to the private sectors of the economy which will help them to make their own decisions and forward plans.
The council's initial investigation and information of advice, have been given an unprecedented degree of independence. The bringing to bear of an informed, independent appraisal of the medium and long range implications of government policy may be one of the most useful consequences of the establishment of the council. This independence will not be weakened or destroyed by any action of this government.
No problem area which bears on Canada's economic future is beyond the scope of the council's inquiry. How it examines these problems is entirely within its competence. There is a provision in the act for the government formally to seek the advice of the council on specific problems or government policies having long run economic implications. In deference to the work load undertaken by the council in its initial year of operations, the government has not yet sought advice from the council on specific policies. The council's first annual review will provide a useful, over-all perspective within which future references by the government could be made.
The council has held meetings with the provincial economic and productivity councils and expects to meet again with these bodies after the publication of its first annual review. The chairman of the council has assured me that on the basis of the review every effort will be directed at developing effective and practical means of consultation with the appropriate provincial agencies in regard to all matters of common concern.
The council has met six times so far this year, and there have been numerous meetings of the various committees. The diligence with which the council, under the active chairmanship of Dr. John Deutsch, has applied itself to the task set for it, is to be commended. This is obviously a working council. The fruits of that labour will shortly be available to parliament and the Canadian public in the form of the first annual review. The government looks forward with confidence and high expectations to this first substantive publication of the council. This document and the subsequent recommendations will carry the weight of expert analysis and the collective wisdom of a body whose members, in their own right, are leaders in the private sector of the economy.


Thus we feel that we have a good piece of legislation and a good, dynamic council which will soon be in a position to make an essential contribution, through its research, its projections and recommendations, to the development of economic planning in Canada.
In presenting the estimates for the current fiscal year, the civil service commission wishes to report to the committee on a number of activities which should be of particular interest, either because they represent significant changes in traditional programs or are innovations designed to solve new problems encountered in providing staff and services for the departments and agencies of the civil service.
The commission has established a new salary administration plan, and a systematic appraisal program for senior officers in the civil service. It is also constructing a manpower inventory of managerial and professional resources. This inventory will be kept up to date and will provide a ready and quick means, consistent with the merit principle, for meeting the needs of all departments and agencies, at the senior levels. It is hoped that a purposeful career development program can be evolved for senior officers to ensure that there is a reservoir of competent managerial talent, available to the public service sufficient to meet the increasingly demanding requirements which rapidly changing socioeconomic conditions will create.
Following a preliminary analysis of requirements for senior managerial staff, it was concluded that a much more significant development program is required for senior officers than the one-month course given annually over the past several years. The commission instituted this year a four-month senior course in public administration held in residence at Carleton Place. Some 30 officers, carefully selected from departmental nominations, were admitted to the course last spring. This course was assessed as being extremely valuable to the participating departments, and the commission has now established this program as an annual activity in response to the demands of the senior officials in government departments throughout the public service.
As a result of recommendations made by the preparatory committee on collective bargaining, the government concluded that a substantial change in the civil service classification system would be required as prerequisite to the introduction of collective bargaining and arbitration. On the request of the government, the commission has undertaken a

Supply-Secretary of State
classification revision program intended to produce class structures based, in the main, on occupational grouping designed to apply horizontally throughout the civil service. The bureau of classification revision has been established to undertake this project. Another unit, a classification branch, has been established to meet the day-to-day requirements in relation to the present classification system; this unit will work on a diminishing scale, as the new classification system is put into effect.
With the advent of collective bargaining, the commission has been giving careful consideration to its future role in staffing the civil service. The commission, like industry and commerce, is faced with problems in recruitment created by the increasing demand for more highly trained technical and professional staff, not to mention managerial staff. Early in 1965 the commission hopes to be in a position with staff and facilities to compete effectively with other institutions, both public and private, for a fair share of available manpower resources. The commission is convinced that unless it takes an aggressive attitude in this competitive market the service will be at a serious disadvantage in meeting its commitments to the public over the next five to ten years.

Mr. Chairman, at the end of September 1963, the treasury board authorized the staff and appropriations required for the launching, early in 1964, of a central program for the teaching of the two official languages to public servants.
The commission then proceeded to the appointment of a co-ordinator and an advisory committee, the renting of premises, the installation of a language laboratory and the hiring of four teachers.
The first stage of the program was completed during the first semester of 1964, when three courses in French and one in English, the length of which varied from ten weeks in the case of part-time courses to four fulltime courses, were given to 42 civil servants designated by the different departments and grouped on the basis of scientific tests.
After taking into consideration the past experience, the program was developed further and strengthened during the summer of 1964.
Before it opened in September the school was provided with an additional laboratory, the number of classrooms was increased to
10, and the personnel to eight teachers and two supervisors.
It is anticipated that in January 1965 the total staff will include 20 full time and ten part time teachers.
During the second phase of the program the school will thus be able to accommodate, during a 12-month period, approximately 700 students who will attend courses of various lengths.
The commission is basing its program on some very solid facts, one of which is that, in selecting teachers, establishing facilities and choosing programs, the commission must measure up to the standards required in this highly specialized area of teaching a second language to adults, according to the resources available in our country at this moment for this purpose.
There must be a small number of students in each classroom, because it appears that a class of eight to ten students, instead of 15 as had previously been figured, offers the best possibilities of profitable exchanges between teacher and students.
It is also important to note that no single formula can be applied universally and that the program, as a whole, must offer a diversity of courses which can benefit various classes of students.
Therefore, a complete training from the elementary and intermediate levels will produce a meagre success if it is not on a full time basis, or at least of a half-day duration, with all the equipment required during an initial phase of intensive training lasting as much as four months. This would be followed by a second phase of a duration of several months, with a less intensive on-the-job training.
That is why courses of a half-day duration will be given only, in general, to more advanced students or as an extension of the intensive training.
They will also be offered to those employees whose work only requires a very limited knowledge of both languages, as well as to senior officials who have a great ability to learn, but who really cannot stay away from their duties. If such courses were ever made available to all civil servants, it would rather be with a view to sustaining the general interest, pending the establishment of entirely satisfactory facilities.
The commission is convinced that in order to be useful, a training program must be supported by supplementary arrangements designed to provide graduates with a real

Supply-Secretary of State opportunity to make good use of and to improve their newly acquired knowledge. Those arrangements will include personal incentive programs to be applied at home, but also opportunities for work under bilingual conditions.
The commission will be pleased to lend a hand to such departments as wish to help in setting up such conditions. In the meantime, it is imperative that, during the training stages, each group be composed of students who have approximately the same education and aptitudes for learning.
Consequently, it is necessary to group, under a single and vast training program, the greatest possible number of students, in order to provide the required number of homogeneous classes. That is why applications for registration should be pooled, and dealt with as much as possible from a coordinating centre staffed with travelling teachers as well as resident teachers, rather than through a series of independent departmental programs, which would be less efficient and more costly.
A word, now, about some of the practical measures taken by the commission in the matter of selection of bilingual personnel to meet the requirements. Apart from competitions for positions where a knowledge of both languages is a necessary requirement, it has now become the practice to allow extra marks for the knowledge of both languages in the case of competitions set up to fill positions where this knowledge would be useful. However, this practice continues to allow candidates with a knowledge of only one of our two official languages, to become eligible for a position. On the other hand, since bilingualism is part and parcel of the merit principle, not only with regard to some particular positions but in the areas where there is a general shortage, the knowledge of both languages is required in the case of some competitions to recruit more than one employee. This is being done with the deliberate intention to increase the number of bilingual employees, in areas where there is a shortage of them.
All examinations have now been analysed, especially those which are used to recruit university graduates, in order to ensure that they are in conformity with the intelligence and general knowledge tests and that they are not based on learning peculiar to a particular system of culture or teaching. The commission, however, keeps in close contact with teaching and training institutions, in order to be able to assess accurately and

fairly the various kinds of levels of training which exist throughout the country.
Finally, steps were taken to ensure that examining boards are composed of members who can hold a complete interview in that of the two official languages which the candidate has chosen, and who can also assess his education, his experience and his possibilities of success.

I want to make it clear, however, as I have already said on several occasions, that we do not intend to impose our general program of bilingualism on the civil service. We believe that it cannot be successful without the sincere and full co-operation of the civil servants and their associations. That is why we intend to consult with the staff associations before implementing important phases of our major undertaking. Above all, we do not want to impinge upon existing rights or to create new sources of discrimination while attempting to eliminate existing unfairness.
A great number of civil servants have already understood their new challenge and in many cases they have taken special training courses on their own initiative and at their own expense. Thus we are quite sure that the civil servants will accept a government program of bilingualism, not reluctantly and as a concession but as an opportunity for their own cultural enrichment, which will enable them to better serve all Canadians.


Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, the minister's plan is to have us, if we are going to make any remarks, make them on the agencies of his department that have been covered. For something like the C.B.C. or the national film board, which he will cover later, he would request that we touch on those matters later after he makes an introductory statement. Some of my colleagues want to make some remarks about the translation system. I wanted to place several questions on the record and perhaps the minister could answer them later.
I am very interested in knowing whether there is going to be any relationship in timing and discussion among the Department of Finance on its preparing a white paper in relationship to the budget, the Department of Trade and Commerce in the preparing of the document that it puts forward every year on private and public investment in Canada, and the major publication, I take it to be-it is an annual publication-of the Canada economic council. The reason I am

interested in this matter is to discover what kind of liaison or relationship has developed in this particular field, which I think is a delicate one. We would like to assume, in one way, that the economic council is operating on its own. It seems to me it has the personnel, the staff and the independence the minister talked of; but there is also the problem of which I am sure the government must be aware, and it would certainly be exploited in this chamber if there was a great discrepancy in the analyses and the projections. I would assume that this would be solved in the main by the fact that the economic council would be projecting into the future much more than these other agencies have done. Yet I think it is quite apparent that every time we get a budget it is the projection out of the white paper which is the analysis of current conditions, and the public and private investment in Canada also stands in the same way. I would appreciate it if the minister could fill us in a bit on how these major publishing efforts, two by government departments and one by a new agency, are going to be dovetailed.
The next question I wanted to raise is this. I did not get the early part of the minister's remarks in French, but I wondered whether he made any distinction in connection with the problem that I have heard about from some civil servants beyond Ottawa. I refer to the relative disadvantage of the outside service to the service inside, or at Ottawa, in relation to this whole question of bicultural-ism and training. I suppose it is very apparent that most senior civil servants, in particular, would be willing to improve their prospects by taking courses of training; but it is also apparent that anyone who is in the west is going to have much less chance to use, in practice, socially or any other way, his other language, particularly if it is the French language.
I am just wondering what plan the government has to meet this particular problem. I have had it put to me by people who are, for example, in charge of offices in Winnipeg and the lakehead and who are in the years when one could expect further promotion- perhaps promotion to Ottawa-that they are at an obvious disadvantage. I would be interested if the minister could tell us anything about plans to compensate for the disadvantage from which the outside service suffers.
The other question I want to raise-and I do not believe the minister touched on it at all-is the problem relating to the Com-
Supply-Secretary of State panies Act and the fact that so many companies are behind in the annual reports required by the Companies Act. I know that before the committee of the other place the gentleman who is in charge of Companies Act registrations and the bureau in the minister's department gave evidence to the effect, it seemed to me, that the Companies Act requirements, in so far as the posting of information and keeping it up to date is concerned, was observed more in the breach than in actuality. This is a matter that has interested me for some time. I would like to know what practical steps are being taken to correct this situation, how well it is coming along, whether it is being met by some future streamlining of the department, or whether there is an attempt to get more personnel and deal with it in that particular way.
The other point I wanted to put to the minister by way of a question was to ask him about the planning function within the ministry itself. I think this is a fair question to raise since the minister is responsible for the economic council. One of the matters which confuses those of us who are in opposition is that we will read a speech which we can appreciate by, say, the Minister of Forestry dealing with economic planning or ARDA and its future. Then we will read addresses given by the Minister of Industry which indicate that he is also involved in the whole question of economic planning, the direction of investment and the development of incentives. We take for granted that the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Trade and Commerce are also operating in this field. Consequently some of us tend to feel that there may be a profusion of responsibilities in the whole area of economic planning and direction. We welcome the new agency, but what is the actual setup within the ministry to deal with this question?
I ask this question particularly because for several years there have been comments in business circles to the effect that businessmen would prefer some minister who has over-all responsibility in this matter. It seems to me that since the government gave the Minister of Forestry the particular powers which he has and developed the Department of Industry, on the surface at least there has tended to be some fragmentation.
I think it is worth while making the political observation that the Prime Minister is not filling in the gap so far as the public and this house are concerned. I think it is a fair comment to say that the present Prime Minister in general economic affairs and

Supply-Secretary of State economic planning has not been thus preoccupied either in the house or in the speeches which he gives across the country. There may be reasons for this, of course, but it does lead us to ask the question whether there is an inner cabinet which deals with economic matters. For example, how does it function, is there any scale of priority and what is the relationship of this group with agencies such as, for example, the Bank of Canada? It may be that bringing this matter before the minister will be fruitless because many of us are tending to forget that he is an economist and see him rather as some-I hate to use the word "cultural" figure because I am afraid that Canadians who think of culture do not think of economists. I think that is a fair comment. I think the minister might be candid enough, since he has some relationship with the economic council, to enlighten us somewhat on this particular subject.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I never thought that one day I would agree with the Secretary of State on some points. As a matter of fact, we rather knew him in the province of Quebec as what is called a conventional economist, that is, a little behind the times, in old economic systems.
I think that the Prime Minister succeeded in doing with the Secretary of State what others had failed to do. The Prime Minister has found him a job where he is much at home and well qualified, providing that he stays out of the economic field. It will be remembered that at times, the Secretary of State had somewhat queer, out of date and even obsolete theories, but since he has been Secretary of State, in view of the program he has set out, and of the achievements of his department, I must say that he deserves congratulations because at last he has found a field of endeavour which he understands, that is bilingualism and culture. I hasten to say that this is not to the disadvantage of the minister, quite the contrary, because if we consider the scale of values, in its application to man, cultural values come before economic values. Now, having been appointed as Secretary of State, he climbed a rung and found a field where he could distinguish himself.


Auguste Choquette: A little longer and he will understand what Social Credit is about.


Gilles Grégoire: If he ever does, I hope he will lend us a hand, because we will need all our resources to get the hon. member for Lotbintere (Mr. Choquette) to understand it.

Mr. Chairman, the Secretary of State mentioned that since he has assumed this high post and especially these last few years, a tremendous need for developing and increasing the facilities and possibilities of translation, whether written or simultaneous has come to the fore. It is a fact that a recruiting and training section and terminology centres are imperative. It is also a fact that for a long time, here in parliament, bilingualism was not always honoured, and that was the case even when there were bilingual members in the house. There were almost no efforts to have this translation service developed.
Many members of the house agree with me that what contributed most in calling the attention of parliament to bilingualism in the civil service, where its need was felt, was the presence in this house of a group of 26 Social Credit members from the province of Quebec. They are the ones who emphasized the French fact.


Maurice Lamontagne: You arrived at the same time.


Gilles Grégoire: I am not against this acknowledgement, because once our group sounded the clarion call, some members of parliament, such as the Secretary of State, implemented what we requested, even one year before the Secretary of State was elected to this house.
Mr. Chairman, I am proud of the role played here by our group since 1962. At that time, there was practically no question of simultaneous interpretation or bilingualism in the committees, and yet today there is an increasing tendency to bilingualism.
There is no doubt that the program submitted to us today by the Secretary of State deserves our commendation. The Secretary of State looked after first things first. It is obvious that if we want translators and interpreters, a terminology must first be created.
Until all those who are engaged in translation or interpretation may acquire this terminology, which will be developed through the publishing of dictionaries, as was mentioned by the Secretary of State, translation or interpretation will continue to play a secondary role.
But with a real terminology centre within the translation and interpretation sections, then our language will develop in its true clarity and precision.
I also appreciated the statement of the Secretary of State concerning the French courses given those who must learn that language, and the English courses to those who will benefit by learning the English

language. There are now modern methods, and I believe the Secretary of State has used them. In fact, these modern methods enable an individual who knows practically nothing of another language to speak it in an understandable way in a very short time. If these language laboratories and modern methods are used in these courses, I am convinced that the efforts will be crowned with success.
The minister mentioned staff recruiting also. In that field, recruitment now constitutes an important factor. For instance, when the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Sharp) tells us that the Canada Year Book, which is quite an important and valuable book, not only for hon. members but also for a great many businessmen, industrialists or tradesmen in Canada, has been published in French two and a half or even three months- in fact it was in June and the English version had been published in January-that is nearly five months after the English version, then one has to admit that the bureau of translations is short of translators.
Moreover, when we see that the French version of the government telephone directory was distributed about six months after the English version, then, unless this can be explained otherwise, we have to conclude that there is a shortage of translators.


Auguste Choquette: The reason is that some people do not pay their telephone bills.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I think this is the second time the hon. member for Lotbiniere takes this attitude. However, he was probably one of the first to come and tell us: "Our party is in office; we can say nothing; would you ask the government to do something in that field."
I will even say that-


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Chairman, that is untrue.


Gilles Grégoire: In fact, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Lotbiniere came to my office and complained that some of his colleagues from Toronto or Montreal could make direct long distance calls free of charge, and that in his office he could not avail himself of the same services as his colleagues.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. I would suggest to the hon. member for Lapointe to pursue the remarks he was making with such eloquence before the interjections.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I must say it is a fact, notwithstanding the rest, for we 20220-621i
Supply-Secretary of State have realized long ago that the hon. member for Lotbiniere likes to speak and that it is to our advantage to let him speak.
And as the hon. member for Roberval says-


Lucien Lamoureux: I do not believe the attitude of some other member is the subject of the debate at the present time, and I would ask the hon. member for Lapointe to cooperate with the Chair and his colleagues and to revert to the estimates before us.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I am ready to co-operate with you, but when interjections come from the other side of the house, you turn toward us to call us to order. If once in a while you called to order the young greenhorns who are interrupting us constantly, I believe your admonitions would be heeded.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, you called us to order on three occasions this evening, when the interruptions came from the other side of the house.


Lucien Lamoureux: I am calling to order the hon. member for Lapointe.


Gilles Grégoire: I deserved to be called to order, but at least I said what I wanted to say.
Mr. Chairman, mention is made of the terminology centre and other means that might help bilingualism throughout the country. It will be done through this terminology centre and by means of more intensive recruiting, especially in schools specialized in those fields.
Even though we commend the Secretary of State, it must be recognized all the same that what he is submitting to us at present is only a program he intends to establish. We will be looking forward to the results of the program to appreciate its worth. Once again, we must congratulate the minister for the program which he set forth and its efficiency will be judged by its application.
In connection with translation, I would like to point out the example of Belgium to the Secretary of State. It is known that Belgium is a bilingual country where Flemish and Walloon are spoken. I had the opportunity to meet members of the Belgian legislature and to discuss with them their translation system as well as the publication of reports, votes and proceedings or the official report of the Belgian legislature. I have been impressed by one point in particular, namely that in Belgium all the proceedings, all the minutes and all the reports are published in only

Supply-Secretary of State one booklet. Texts in both languages are printed in the same booklet in two different columns opposite one another. On one side you have the version in one language and on the other you find it in the other language.
I asked a Belgian member of parliament the reason why the publication of reports, speeches, laws, etc. was made in both languages in the same booklet, and I was told that in publishing bilingual reports in only one booklet or section of a publication, reports and records of the debates had unavoidably to be published simultaneously in both languages.
In addition, I was told that any reference in one language to a certain page of Hansard or of the Votes and Proceedings is sure to be found on the same page, in the other language, because the original and the translation are printed side by side. Since the Secretary of State wishes to improve the bureau for translations, he might consider this so as to hasten the publication of the French version of the committees' minutes and proceedings.
Let us take, for instance, the proceedings of Senate or house committees. Very often the French edition is published two to three weeks and sometimes one month after the English version.
It would be much more convenient if the two versions were published simultaneously, since that would enable us to compare both versions, because errors of translation and interpretation do occur.
Sometimes a speech is given in French and, when translated into English, it no longer has the same meaning. It should also be possible to compare other works, for all those who may wish to do so or at least are interested in learning both languages. Then, having the two versions side by side, they could become more bilingual. I think the system used in Belgium, for the publication of all committee proceedings and all speeches made in the national assembly, could be adopted in this country.
Mr. Chairman, once again, I should like to refer to the translation or interpretation system and, incidentally, to the bilingual stenographers also, about which I have a special comment to make, if the matter comes under the Secretary of State.
Mr. Chairman, I notice that the Secretary of State nods his head indicating that it does not come under him. Perhaps I could come back to that when we discuss the Speaker's estimates.

Mr. Chairman, the Secretary of State also referred to the Canada economic council. I listened to his remarks with interest and what struck me is that after a year of existence, the Canada economic council is now preparing a review of long and medium term projects of economic development and that it is also involved in the development of consultation facilities.
If after one year of existence, the Canada economic council is preparing a review of legislation on long and medium term economic expansion, I feel that the job that was entrusted to it will never be carried out, because when that review of projects is over and when the time comes to implement them, the economic development will have evolved so much that they will have to start another review.
Therefore, what is needed now under the present circumstances, is not long and medium term programs, but the fulfilment of the possibilities of the country and an economic advisory council which will act, not by drafting programs but by looking into the possibilities of development that exist in this country.
It is on the basis of Canada's natural resources and physical possibilities that the economic advisory council must operate, rather than on the basis of long term programs, for in this day and age evolution is so rapid, progress so advanced that if we do not keep up with the times, we will never succeed through long term planning, in catching up with progress, fo - we will constantly be in the process of preparing plans and programs which will never be implemented.
Since the end of the war, we heard about policies and projects planning. But, when a project has been planned and is ready for implementation, a commission of inquiry or a committee is appointed to adapt this policy planned five or six years previously.
I feel that the economic council should concentrate on the adaptation of our economic, financial, monetary and production system to our times, rather than on the planning of projects for a distant future.
Mr. Chairman, this economic council can be of tremendous service if it acts upon existing data, this country's capabilities, and not upon projections into a rather distant future, because at that time, progress will have developed to such an extent as to require a complete review of the said policy.
In conclusion, I should like to tell the Secretary of State that his speech on bilingualism within parliament and the civil service can only meet with our approval, at least

in its main lines, and we hope that he will try his best so that this program may be carried out completely.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I thought that this debate included all the estimates, but if the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) wants to speak, I will gladly yield to him.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you very much, you are most kind.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I have just a brief general comment I want to make, Mr. Chairman, and then I want to refer to one aspect of a matter about which the Secretary of State spoke in his opening remarks. My general comment arises from the interest there was in the country, during the last election campaign, about the prospect of the Liberals, if they came to power, going in for economic planning. We have been watching for that ever since the government took office. We have found ourselves wondering which minister it was who was going to head up economic planning and do something about it.
The Department of Industry was set up, and we thought perhaps the minister of that department was to be our economic planner. We looked in vain in that direction. Some people thought it was the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but he is not the economic planner. Neither is the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Forestry makes speeches on economic planning outside the house, as do some others. It appears now, at last, we have found the head of economic planning in this government, namely the Secretary of State. I noticed the hon. member for Port Arthur was a little concerned as to which of the minister's aspects were going to come out on top, his cultural side or his economic side. It may be that we have in the Secretary of State Canada's C. P. Snow. I suppose I should find some way of putting that into French, but I will leave that to the translation bureau that comes under the minister's department.
At any rate, I hope that this minister will not disappoint us the way others have done, by just giving us a certain amount of talk about economic planning. If I may say so, I thought there was a good deal of sense in some of the things he said in his brief remarks tonight. I certainly hope that the work of the economic council of Canada, and the other agencies to which the minister referred, will be pushed ahead. I know the minister from
Supply-Secretary of State days long since gone by. I believe his basic philosophy is sound. I just hope he will find some opportunity of putting that philosophy into practice.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I said there was one aspect of a matter about which the minister spoke which I wanted to ask him a question or two. I refer to the translation bureau which comes under the Secretary of State. I noted with interest what he told us about establishing a terminology centre and I also noted with interest the indication that it is hoped at least 50 new employees will be added to the translation bureau in the next little while. I certainly hope this latter aim will be achieved. Other members have spoken about the significance of all this in relation to the program for bilingualism. I should like to look at it from the standpoint of the problem that some of the employees of this department have to face.
I am thinking particularly of our own translators who are in these booths at the foot of this chamber and who are having to translate what we say from one language to the other all the time the house is in session. As the Secretary of State knows, I am sure, those persons are employees of his department and not employees of the House of Commons. This means, therefore, that they may be assigned to work that is being done here in the House of Commons, but they are called upon also to work in a good many other places. Accordingly if at the same time the House of Commons is sitting the other place happens to be sitting as well, and if there is a peace keeping conference or a conference on mentally retarded children-


Maurice Lamontagne: You are speaking of federal-provincial conferences.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Some of us have been wondering just where this peace keeping conference could do the most good. Yes, perhaps it may be at the federal-provincial level, but there are times when peace keeping ought to be brought into the floor of the House of Commons. There may be times when the Liberal party or the Conservative party could use it within its own ranks.
The point I should like to make, Mr. Chairman, is that it seems inevitable that when a group of employees can be called upon to work in any one of a dozen different places, without any planner like the Secretary of State planning these various conferences so that they do not overlap each other, the problem created for the employees is impossible. The Secretary of State may say that

Supply-Secretary of State this problem will be solved when these 50 new employees are taken on by the translation bureau. This may be so. However, I suspect that concurrent with the employment of these 50 new employees in the translation bureau- and I take it this means increasing both the number of interpreters and the number of translators; I am using "translators" to refer to those who translate the written word into the other language and "interpreters" to refer to those in the booths who interpret orally for us-the amount of work to be done will grow and probably in the end the strain on these employees will be just as heavy. In the light of all this there is a question to be faced as to whether the people who work for the House of Commons ought to be brought directly under the House of Commons itself.
It is true that this is an unusual year when measured by the length of the session. It is now in its 184th day, far beyond anything in the past, but the likelihood is that House of Commons sessions will continue to be rather lengthy. The likelihood is that committee work will grow, and in view of all this I suggest there is a case for the interpreters-maybe this applies to the translators as well-who work for the House of Commons to be employed by the House of Commons. At present they are employed by a department outside the house and are sent all over Ottawa, indeed anywhere away from Ottawa on assignments where the government requires interpreting done.
I would like to hear the Secretary of State comment on this problem this evening. If he does not agree with my suggestion, then will he tell us why interpreters who work for the house ought not to be in a separate section attached to and under the control of the house itself?
Before sitting down may I refer to another subject in this general field. As I have already said, I am interested in the announcement that a terminology centre is to be established, with the present director of the bureau of translations as its head. I am interested in the reasons which the minister gave for the establishment of such a centre, but could he tell us whether any research is being carried on by his department, the translation bureau or any other branch of government, into automatic or electronic translating devices? I speak now of translating rather than interpreting. In some parts of the world a great deal of research is being conducted into this sort of thing, and the day may come when by using such devices translations will
fMr. Knowles.]

be produced faster than they can be done now.
In conclusion I would like the minister to tell us what hopeful word he has for the people who are in the glassed in booths at the foot of the chamber who interpret our words as we speak.


John Edward Lloyd: I appreciate the hon. member's having brought this subject before the committee. Some of us take an interest in the working conditions of house staff, and those of us who do always notice the volume of hours which the interpreting staff have to devote to the performance of their duties in this chamber. I endorse the previous speaker's observations that there is a constant conflict between their work here and assignments outside the house to committees, boards arid conferences.
I suggest there should be greater engagement of freelance interpreters for such outside work. This would relieve the tremendous stress and strain on the interpreting staff of the house who, if they had an opportunity to speak on their own behalf, would certainly tell us that their hours of work this session have been extremely difficult for them to handle. They have done so without complaint and they deserve our immediate and earnest consideration.


Mr. Lessard (Lake Si. John):: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add a few brief comments about the estimates of the Secretary of State.
First, I would like to congratulate the minister for the wonderful job he has done up to the present in the field of bilingualism, which is, we all agree, rather complicated and difficult. He endeavoured to increase the number of bilingual officials in parliament and in the various departments, by giving them the opportunity to study the other language of the country.
However, I feel I must make a few remarks on this matter in order to call his attention to a danger with which I am concerned.
When the various departments will give promotions in the coming months or years, when they will have to take into consideration the qualifications of the various candidates for those promotions, I feel that the people who will be in charge of this selection will need to be very careful not to consider as bilingual a person who, for all practical purposes, can understand or write only a few words of French.
However, if the intention is to play somewhat on words, and lead us to believe that in

future there will be only bilingual civil servants when the Anglo-Saxon group has had an opportunity to learn a little French to meet the requirements of the various departments, in order to prevent the promotion of perfectly bilingual French Canadians, then I think that we will have fought in this house for nothing.
We noticed that in the past, English speaking civil servants, in the house and in other departments, were promoted over the heads of fully bilingual French speaking personnel, and following criticism made on several occasions the departments decided to teach French to their officials in order to avoid criticism henceforth in matters of promotions.
I believe that this had to be said, and the minister may be assured that we will always be on the alert and ready to defend the interests of those who could be so wronged. I may give him the assurance that each time we have the opportunity-and I hope the situation will not be repeated-we shall be ready to bring to the attention of the minister these cases which may occur.
The minister has reported on the activities of the economic council of Canada. Some weeks ago, I asked him when he expected to table a report on the activities of this agency which has already been in existence for a year. I was surprised by his silence in this regard.
On the other hand, I imagined that an agency working silently had perhaps a better chance to produce something positive, but when I see the work done by the Atlantic development board, I unfortunately cannot reach this conclusion-I was going to use the phrase "unfortunately I cannot reach the conclusion"-since the board which has not worked silently and was granted some funds, has already done a good job in the Atlantic provinces and invested some money in hydroelectric developments, and also in many other projects, in conjunction with the provinces concerned. We therefore have here an agency which, besides doing planning, sees to it that all imaginable possibilities are realized in the imediate future.
I wonder if, since we decided to create it, it would not have been preferable to grant more authority to this economic council, so it could show results more quickly. I am wondering how it has been operating during the last year. Did it consult the provincial authorities without whose co-operation no planning can be established, because the provincial governments own their natural resources. I think that it is a delusion to endeavour to attain some measure of success
Supply-Secretary of State without considering the views of the different provincial governments. Did the members of this agency visit the areas of our country? Did they hear the representations of the agencies which are responsible for the economic development of the various regions in order to ascertain the research which was carried out in those various areas and avoid a duplication of work, expenses and energy?
It would be interesting to know the answers to all those questions because when they visit those regions, those gentlemen could realize the local possibilities and also the developments we can expect from them.
Within the Department of Industry, there is of course what is called a regional development agency. Does that agency achieve a concrete job? Has it the approval of the provincial authorities for such work? Does that agency of the Department of Industry come into conflict with the projects now under consideration by the economic council of Canada? Those are some more questions to which we would like to get answers.
In any case, the minister can be assured that we will wait, I should even say with impatience, for that first report of the economic council because it will indicate whether we made a mistake in setting it up and if we can hope that the work already carried out is liable to produce concrete achievements enabling us to form an opinion on the efficiency of the decision taken on that matter.
Of course, reference was made a while ago to the need of personnel in the translation offices and also in the French language reporters division. Having been myself on several committees, I was in a position to notice the progress made in those fields, but unfortunately, on many occasions, due to the fact that several committees sat at the same time, we sometimes had to do without the services of bilingual reporters. I think that even if the minister often said that he made real efforts to hire some, we are still wondering why it is that his efforts were not successful. It is clear that it is difficult to train such a qualified personnel in a relatively short period, but I think that the problem has been pointed out to the authorities for more than two years. In my opinion the time has come to present tangible achievements in this field.
As the minister dealt with only two particular points, I shall limit myself to them. There are other subjects under his jurisdiction and in which I am interested. I shall

Supply-Secretary of State wait therefore till the right moment comes to discuss them.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, I have only a few words to say with respect to the estimates of the Secretary of State (Mr. Lamon-tagne.)
Like the previous speaker, I would like to congratulate the minister for promoting bilingualism in all the federal departments and I would also like to encourage him to do even more.
The main purpose of my intervention is to correct the impression that bilingualism started here in the house only after the arrival of the Social Credit members, a group which now calls itself the Ralliement Creditiste.
In 1957 when I was elected for the first time, my colleagues of the province of Quebec and myself endeavoured to increase the use of French on parliament hill. I for one made a list of the various signs appearing in numerous places inside the centre block as well as outside on the hill, and I asked the then responsible minister to make arrangements so that exclusively English signs be replaced by bilingual signs, which we can see today nearly everywhere.
Another example indicating the interest we took in this matter is the fact that the then minister of defence production, Hon. R. O'Hurley, was the first to publish in French the report of the Department of Defence Production.
He also appointed to a crown corporation a French speaking Canadian as president. He also took several other steps to spread the use of French in Ottawa.
In his statement the minister says that French courses and English courses were given to civil servants to enable them to familiarize themselves with either of the official languages of the country. I would like to know the number of civil servants who take full-time French or English courses.
I also ask the minister to be very explicit on the marks granted in civil service commission competitions to those who speak the two official languages of the country.
I should like him to tell us also, in the case of a vacant position in a community where French only, or vice-versa English only, is spoken, whether an application from a bilingual employee would be considered?
Before I conclude my remarks, I should like to remind the Secretary of State that during the election campaigns, the 1963 campaign especially, Liberal candidates in the


province of Quebec promised a special bonus to bilingual employees. I should like to know whether this project is still in the minister's mind and if so, when does he expect to carry it out? Furthermore, if he does not intend to pay special bonus to bilingual employees, what are the reasons today for his change of policy?


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I was very pleased to hear that the Secretary of State is interested in the problem of making bilingualism available to many of the senior civil servants who otherwise would not have the opportunity of becoming bilingual. There are in Ottawa a great many senior civil servants who are very much afraid of the situation that has been created by this French-English problem. The bilingual atmosphere, for which perhaps members of the Ralliement Creditiste can take some credit, has spread to the degree that to be promoted within a department you must be bilingual.
As one who cannot speak French, I know that if an elevator operator is hired and he cannot speak one word in English, very soon he becomes bilingual. It is a fact that though he is not bilingual when hired, within a few weeks he will be bilingual or he is just not going to get by and will not know when it is dinner time, in some cases. Therefore he becomes bilingual. I have found this is very true with most of the bilingual jobs with which I have been in contact. You telephone the Department of Agriculture, for instance. I presume the people you talk to are bilingual. I have often talked to three or four people before I got one to whom I could put a question and get an answer. They are bilingual all right, but it certainly must be in another language; it is not English.
The point is that because of the geographic situation in Canada those bilingual people who are going to get these jobs have to come from an area where French is taught and is the native language. It is very easy to pick up a second language by association, but it is very difficult to learn a second language through study. For this reason I am very happy that the minister has decided that courses will be made available, so that the fact we want to have, in a federal sense, a bilingual nation will not mean that those who are not raised in the province of Quebec under the French educational system will be eliminated from obtaining all types of jobs.
We may say that this will not happen, that we are not going to discriminate; but

I wonder how often we discriminate in regard to many of the jobs posted for the civil service, particularly those jobs that call for bilingualism when bilingualism is not a necessity, an advantage or even to be desired. There are many, many jobs in this country where it is no advantage, unless it is for personal satisfaction, to be bilingual. We often hear civil servants in Ottawa saying, "Oh, I cannot be promoted", or "There is no point in my trying for that job". I know an engineer who experienced this difficulty a couple of weeks ago with regard to the Department of Industry. This man had held civil service jobs in the past and has three or four degrees. He said, "Well, look at the posters". We went through them all, the bilingual requirement was the main aspect of the qualifications required, and he had no opportunity to obtain one of these jobs. He certainly would have been ill advised to apply, because he is not bilingual. It seems to me that many of the jobs in the Department of Industry did not really require a person working in most parts of Canada to be bilingual.
I think it is also a fact that this is not a bilingual nation. I believe we in this house well understand the scope of bilingualism, its advantages and the fact that the federal government is pledged to allow the use of either official language and, much better, both official languages; but it is not necessary to have two official languages. This, of course, raises another problem. I receive a considerable amount of correspondence in French because a great many of my constituents are French and write to me in that language. While I have a small knowledge of that language, my translation is very bad and very often it becomes confused and I have difficulty with this correspondence. To be fair to the Secretary of State, my most recent translations are being done by his executive secretary, who was kind enough to offer his services because there is just no service provided in the department. I think this is a service that should be provided.
While we are thinking about the translation department and the simultaneous translators here and bringing them into the staff of the House of Commons, we should realize that there must be established a branch which will handle translation. I telephone the minister's department and talk to his translation branch. The official there is either very bilingual himself and does not understand the situation, or has an odd interpretation of what are government matters. If he thinks I am sending over correspondence just because I would like to 20220-622
Supply-Secretary of State have it translated, I have news for him. This is not the purpose; it is government business that comes to me as a representative of government. I believe it is the responsibility of somebody to provide this type of translation service for members of parliament, because there is no consideration of having to be bilingual and in fact you do not have to be able to read and write to be a member of parliament-although sometimes it helps. It is not really necessary to be bilingual; but I believe your constituents-and I am very serious about this-if they write to you in either of the official languages, have a right to expect an answer in the language in which they write. But this is not possible because of the unavailability of a translation service.
The minister will have to provide us with the same type of schools that he is willing to provide for the senior civil servants, or he will have to provide us with a translation service that will translate this correspondence for us. I have gone to the messenger service, to the simultaneous interpreters here, and to the protective staff; I have cornered pretty nearly everyone who speaks both our official languages. I am very happy to say that they are most obliging people and will translate a letter for me. But when you have a thick sheaf of papers they begin to wonder whether they should undertake the job, and in most cases they do not. As members of parliament I think we have an obligation to our constituents, and if we have only one French speaking person in the riding we should be in the position where we can reply to him in his own language. This can only be done if we have a translation service.
I think we have to draw the line somewhere; I do not think we are going to be able to re-educate all the people in Canada. I am not opposed to that, and I am not really opposed to our making this a bilingual nation; but I do not think we are going to do it by the back door. We are not going to do it by forcing the civil service to be bilingual, without our having enough courage to decide to institute a national education system in this country that will provide French and English tuition to all the people of Canada.
If we offer a job requiring bilingualism we are eliminating applications on the part of people from nine of the ten provinces for that job. I think that French Canadians in the federal field are being very unreasonable in asking that everything be translated into French and that all the vacancy postings in the civil service be also put in French. I say that

Supply-Secretary of State because this means that only people from Quebec are able to take advantage of any civil service job.
I might say that the four or five years I spent in high school learning the French language would not give me any bilingual qualification in any shape or form-in the same way as I learned Latin and then tried to talk to Italians; that was just about as silly. The minister has a very big department with surveys taking place, and so on. I do not think our national education is in such a bad way and the minister says he believes we can progress. But if he is not prepared to do what I suggest, it seems to me that we will have to be very careful-and I hope the minister will say whether he is willing to exercise this kind of care-to see that civil service job postings are not loaded in favour of bilingual candidates when bilingualism is not a requirement for the position concerned. There are some civil servants in the gallery now who are bilingual and others who are not. I think every one of those postings which is slanted in favour of bilingual candidates is directed toward a particular person who is in mind for the job. If it cannot be open the posting might just as well not be put up at all. So we will either have to be very careful about using this bilingualism weapon in the civil service or we are going to have to go much further than that and provide equal opportunity for all Canadians.
I know some will say they would not accept that or that it cannot be done. I see several French Canadian members of parliament shaking their heads, indicating they are not in favour of that. All they are really saying is: We want an advantage over all other Canadians. They are not saying they want equality. They are saying: Give us a damned big advantage which we want to hang on to.


An hon. Member:: That is not so.


William Arnold Peters: Someone says no. With the exception of a person from my area, or Timmins, Sudbury and perhaps a few other ridings in eastern Ontario, a person from Ontario would have no possibility on coming out of high school of having any French to enable him to speak intelligently with a French Canadian. He could not pass any type of examination in the French language. Are these people not good enough to be in the civil service? What about the people in Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Nova Scotia or Newfoundland? Are they not going to be able to qualify for positions in the civil service? That is what it amounts to if this

practice is used indiscriminately. I think the minister should give consideration to this matter.
I would also make a plea that the translation branch and other branches for which we in the House of Commons have assumed responsibilities and over which the Speaker has some limited jurisdiction be transferred to a special branch. One of these days we are not going to have any oral translation at all. If hon. members would check they would find that on many days just two people are running the House of Commons simultaneous translation system all day long. Where are the others? Perhaps one will be in Montreal, two or three at a committee meeting somewhere, another out of town. They are greatly understaffed. The international regulations of their union will not allow them to carry on this type of operation for very long. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre said, if we had 50 we would only be bringing their number up to strength. Some extension must be made in the near future. I would think that the amount of translation being done in the committees branch now is four to five times as much as when I first came to parliament. I think that is also true with the federal-provincial conferences which are taking place these days; a simultaneous translation system is provided there. Therefore I suggest these people should be given some protection.
I should just like once again to commend the minister on the job he has undertaken in the retraining of senior civil servants, because I think that is important. It is something from which some benefit can flow. If the type of inequality to which I have referred is watched and the government is willing to provide bilingual training where necessary, this will lessen many of the fears of those who find they have reached a dead end street, particularly in Ottawa, as far as promotion is concerned as a result of the emphasis which is being placed on bilingualism today. I do not know whether we are smart enough or young enough to meet the other requirements, but I should like to see members of parliament given an opportunity of attending classes similar to those attended by civil servants. In my own particular case there is a small segment of my riding the people of which speak French only, and it would be of great advantage if we members of parliament were given the rudiments of the language, although it is a fact that the simultaneous translation system has elimi-

nated to quite an extent the previous motivation for learning the second language.


Mr. Marcoux:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words following the speech made by the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Peters). When he said that in some departments he had to contact three or four officials before he found anyone who spoke English, I thought he had addressed himself to the government of the province of Quebec.
Amongst other things, he claimed that certain high officials and technicians of the Department of Industry were reluctant to seek promotions because they are not bilingual. I should like to point out to him that if there is a department in Ottawa which is not bilingual, it is surely the Department of Industry. Indeed, I think that only one out of 13 high officials is bilingual in that department. At least, the person in question has a French name. I suppose that, once again, the hon. member has no grounds to complain.
I should also like to say that if the hon. member feels that French Canadians are discriminatory when they seek to have their language recognized, he must admit that very little has been done in the past hundred years about the problem of the French language. If the consideration given to the question now is slightly annoying to some members, they must understand that the present emphasis is due to the fact that precious little was done about the recognition of French during all those years.
The present situation is quite surprising for them, but they must not be worried. If, in a few months or a few years from now, the question creates general interest-that is the great difference between the past and the present-it will be less obvious and requests such as those which are made today will pass unnoticed.
I should also like to say a word about the civil service commission. However, my remarks will not deal with the question of French, since others have made the usual authoritative representations in that respect a while ago. Consequently, there is no need for me to add anything to what they said.
However, apart from the fact that the Laurendeau-Dunton commission will certainly find out problems coming under the civil service commission in the fields of French language and bilingualism, I think it would be desirable also in certain cases to 20220-622J
Supply-Secretary of State inquire into the civil service commission itself.
I know that this commission is not under political control and that its employees are all competent and render unusual services to the country. However, in certain cases, uncommon as they may be, we noticed minor irregularities and discriminations in the advertising of some competitions requiring certain qualifications, which were already known by a few, of course.
Nevertheless, I feel it would be a good thing if the minister would become interested in that problem and ask qualified persons, outside the civil service commission and completely independent in that field, to make a special investigation.
I am personally aware, for having inquired myself from certain government agencies, that it was realized that-unknowingly no doubt-there were certain discriminations, not necessarily concerning languages, but rather proficiency, residence of the candidate, his record, and finally for different reasons, it seemed to me that a little discrimination may occur in some cases.
I feel that many civil servants would be pleased to learn of an unbiased inquiry, in order to appraise, first of all, the duties and also the classification and promotional methods affecting civil servants.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, may I take only a few minutes to correct a remark made by a Liberal member, under the item now under discussion. I refer to the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Choquette) who took the liberty to make remarks about telephone bills which were not paid by members of the Ralliement Creditiste.
Just for the information of the house, I must say to the hon. member for Lotbiniere that I can afford to pay my bill much more than he could himself. The hon. member for Lotbiniere has no right to interfere in a discussion in order to criticize regulations or measures passed by parliament as a whole or by the committee on parliamentary procedure.
Members of the Ralliement Creditiste who refuse to pay their bills to the Bell Telephone Company of Canada adhere to a measure passed by parliament and also to the report carried unanimously by the committee on parliamentary procedure.
I would not have missed this opportunity to call to order an hon. member who attempts to play petty politics when he is not even able himself to meet his obligations while


[Stage Direction]
Supply-Secretary of State we are in a position to do so very easily ourselves without his help.
Mr. Rondeau:: Mr. Chairman, during the next few minutes I would like, as some of my colleagues have done, to comment on bilingualism in the civil service, in various federal departments and crown corporations.
It has been urged not very long ago that bilingualism be enforced in Canada. I would like to ask especially the ministers to reply when possible in French to any letter written in French. Very recently I wrote in French to a minister and I received a reply in English.
If the good intentions expressed this evening by the Secretary of State are to be put into practice, federal ministers should start by setting an example.
We should also like to remind the house that in Canada, as everybody knows, French Canadians make up about 30 per cent of the total population. Now, it would be interesting to learn-not to raise the cry of discrimination, but just to find out-what is the percentage of French Canadians, at present, among those holding jobs in the public administration. The thing is that, as the hon. member for Timis-kaming (Mr. Peters) pointed out, it may be easier for French Canadians to be perfectly or simply bilingual. It would be interesting, then, to find out if, with this greater aptitude, French Canadians hold a proportion of jobs in keeping with the percentage of this country's French Canadian population.
I would also like to recall to the attention of the minister, whose estimates we are considering tonight, that last summer several delegations toured the national gallery and some other places coming under his department; on such occasions, we could meet only one bilingual employee able to answer in the language of the delegations' members.
I would therefore ask the minister concerned to kindly put into practice, as soon as possible, the good intentions he has shown us tonight. It is excellent to mean well, but we are expecting still a lot of realizations in this field.
These last years only, that is for two years now, much has been said in Canada on bilingualism. And while, during those two years progress was made in that direction, the accomplishments should at least be put into practice, not in obliging all Anglo-Saxon Canadians to learn French, but in showing respect, by using its own language, to an important section of the Canadian population, that is the French Canadian population, in order that the latter be treated fairly, and
[Mr. Caouette.l
in its dealings with the departments and the various crown companies, receive replies in its own language.
Mr. Chairman, I would be happy if the minister, one year from now, could outline the accomplishments of his department in that field.


Gilles Grégoire: May I call it ten o'clock? [Text]


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether we could continue for a while. I should like to make a few comments on the remarks that have been made with regard to the translation services. If we could pass the estimates of the department, the civil service commission and the chief electoral officer I would be quite willing to delay the few remarks I should like to make on the economic council to a later time, if the committee does not want to sit beyond 10.15.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, we still had a few comments to make on that. Would we still have the opportunity to continue with the department's estimates afterwards?


Maurice Lamontagne: On what item?


Gilles Grégoire: Precisely on the estimates of the bureau for translations.


An hon. Member:: And of the C.B.C.


Maurice Lamontagne: I would not mind at all. But I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if we could at least approve the estimates of the Secretary of State Department, as well as those of the chief electoral officer and the civil service commission, we could then do without the presence of those gentlemen. After that, it would give me great pleasure to hear the interesting comments of the hon. member for Lapointe on some other occasion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I think what the minister is asking for is a bit of a tall order. I am sure we would be happy to sit for five or six minutes to hear anything he might like to say in reply to anything that has been said tonight, but I think that to ask that items be passed is perhaps a little too much. Perhaps we might not see the clock for five or six minutes and let the minister talk.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say we were quite prepared to pass the estimates as the minister has suggested, but

of course there has been a filibuster by the Creditistes tonight.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that we have a past master in the art of "filibustering" in the person of the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill), it is obvious that we cannot be right.


Maurice Lamontagne: I should like to say a few words about some of the remarks which have been made tonight. First of all, I want to go back to what the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre said about interpreters. I agree fully with him that the interpreters, especially in the last year or so, have worked under very difficult conditions. I said in my opening statement that we were now reviewing the whole situation of the translation bureau, and for the time being at least I am certainly including the interpreters as a very important part of that bureau. This does not mean there will not be any change in the near future. I think it would be very helpful, Mr. Chairman, if we were allowed another few months to review the situation of the translation bureau in order to be able to provide the house with the best service possible, and these very devoted civil servants with the best working conditions possible.
So far as automatic translation devices are concerned, the hon. member may be quite sure that we are looking into all possible means of dealing with this difficult problem of translation in order to find the most effective solution for the needs of the government and parliament.

As far as the hon. member for St. Hya-cinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) is concerned, I would like to tell him that my statement tonight is but a very partial report on the program on bilingualism we are considering. Last December I made a statement on these programs in general and that statement answered the questions raised by the hon. member. As soon as decisions are reached in this connection, I will be pleased to submit a new report to the committee for I do not believe that this is the last time my estimates will come up for consideration. I will then be pleased to submit to the house a new report which I am sure will show that the present government does not intend to disown the promises it made to its supporters.
Supply-Secretary of State

To conclude, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say three things to the hon. member for Timiskaming. First of all, if we have a recess I am quite sure that he will be welcome at the school. Second, as I said in my opening statement we, as a government, have a program for increasing bilingualism in the whole civil service, but we do not want to impose that program on the civil servants. Finally, I think the hon. member should only begin to worry when French Canadians have more than their proper share of jobs in the civil service.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall vote No. 1 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10. Translation bureau, $1,994,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute until we find this item.


William Arnold Peters: This was not agreed to.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, can we call it ten o'clock and continue tomorrow consideration of item 1?


An hon. Member:: It has been carried. [Text]


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the co-operation of the hon. member. As he knows, the estimates of the Department of National Defence will be called tomorrow at the request of hon. members. If at all possible I would like to get a few estimates passed tonight, unless of course hon. members have serious questions to raise. [Translation]


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, we have some important questions to ask the minister with regard to the C.B.C.


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the hon. member was not in the house when I made a statement tonight to the effect that the C.B.C. estimates are not before the committee at this time but that they would be later.
I am convinced that the hon. member will be free then to comment as much as he likes about the C.B.C., and other government cultural agencies.


Lucien Lamoureux: Shall vote 15 carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Ten o'clock.


Mr. Crouse:: Filibuster.
9828	HOUSE OF
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion


Stanley Howard Knowles: I suggest that item 15 carry and that be considered a good night's work.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: The N.D.P. is delaying the committee.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: May I ask if the business as announced for Friday holds?


Mr. MacNaughi:: Yes. Tomorrow we will consider the estimates of the Department of National Defence and if they should be concluded we will take up the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Not a hope.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And does the business for Monday hold?


John Watson MacNaught: On Monday we will consider the resolution dealing with the Canada pension plan, and on Tuesday redistribution.



PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION

[Stage Direction]
A motion to adjourn the house under provisional standing order 39A deemed to have been moved.

Gerald Augustine Regan: Mr. Speaker, my question was addressed to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and arose from a statement by a Canadian commercial counsellor in the central American area to the effect that Canadian exporters were missing the boat because of the lack of adequate shipping between Canada, the West Indies and the central Carribean area. I could not agree more with what Mr. Lemieux said.
I asked the minister whether the government would consider taking steps to encourage the expansion of shipping to that area so that more frequent sailings could lead to the development of our trade with the West Indies and Central American areas. Knowledge of and interest in these respective areas must precede the development of trade. I think that is generally conceded. In addition there must be frequent sailings, because an importer anywhere in those areas needs to know how he can get the goods he needs quickly, and if there are frequent sailings he can get them quickly.


In the general context of my remarks I also include the necessity for good air freight cargo service to and from the Caribbean area. We in the maritime provinces, and I think also in the province of Quebec, have long realized the importance of the British West Indies to Canada, and the historic trading relations within certain limits and certain products. I have always felt that I have found here in Ottawa that the rest of Canada have their heads deep in the sand with regard to the potential of the West Indies area to Canada. Here is an area, with notable exceptions, with a British tradition, an area which is come into independence and maturity, an area which inevitably will be nothing more than an appendage to the United States economy, unless we in Canada are at long last prepared to take the hand of friendship which has been proffered so often to us by those people, and to develop our commercial contacts with the West Indies.
What we must do is have some form of economic union, get as large a portion as possible of the West Indies into the Canadian dollar sphere and out of the sterling bloc, so that we can trade with them and send our winter vacationists there without affecting our balance of payments. It is in this connection that the mutual usefulness of the West Indies and Canada does exist. Mr. Lemieux does a service to Canada in pointing out the need for more frequent sailings. The Department of Trade and Commerce spends money and does a great deal of research to develop trade. I want to say that here is an area where the department should seriously consider providing some form of subsidy to private shipping to encourage more regular runs to that area. If this were done for four or five years, trade would have grown to the point when a subsidy would no longer be necessary. It is the old story of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. The shipping has to be there before the trade can grow. In that period of time, if it is to be made profitable for private enterprise, there must be assistance from the government. It is in the national interest. It helps our trade to grow and helps to improve our relationship with this important area, one which is all the more important because there has recently been a federation of these so-called outer seven, St. Kitts, Barbados and five others.
This is a country which will be looking for independence after 1965 and which will be looking to Canada for assistance in the development of national trade. I hope we will be prepared to meet them at that time. The

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion
prime minister of the Bahamas said to me last year that he found Canada had never shown much interest in the Bahamas in the past. I hope this will not continue. I know that in Britain Mr. Gordon Walker, as well as his predecessor in the Conservative government Mr. Duncan Sandys, and Mr. Nigel Birch have expressed again and again their desire that Canada should be willing to participate on a tripartite basis in the assistance and in the administration which is given to that area by Britain as it becomes more independent. I think that in this direction lies a great future for Canada. We must not lose our opportunity to develop a type of economic union with the only area which remains as a potential warm country, not tropical, but all the year round warm country, with which we can have some form of economic union as it develops.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about confederation?


Gerald Augustine Regan: I know that without a doubt much can be done. Exporters in the Nova Scotia area do a good job of selling goods down there. They have to know the markets and the market is rather limited, but if exporters take the trouble to learn the market, if the department will help to provide shipping, it could be done.
I have noticed in the 1963 report of the Auditor General that on the books of the assets of this country are still some $400,000 resulting from the winding up of the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, which went out of existence as an active corporation in 1958. What could be more appropriate than using that money, as it comes back into the treasury, as part of the subsidy for the development of more new shipping connections with the West Indies, which is a much greater market for trade now than it was at that time. I consider this would be of great economic importance to the eastern part of Canada and indeed to Canada as a whole, and I think something should be done about it.


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I join with the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Regan) in emphasizing the importance to Canada of improving our trade relationships with the West Indies, and like him I look forward to the time when there will be some federation, at least, of those islands. I had the great pleasure at Easter time of visiting Barbados and spending an hour or so with the prime minister, Mr. Barrow, when we talked about the problems that face him in the future.
The particular question that the hon. gentleman raised is as a result of some articles appearing in "Foreign Trade", a publication of the Department of Trade and Commerce, of October 31, 1964, which is devoted almost entirely to Canada's trade with Central America and Panama. I think this indicates -and I hope the hon. gentleman will accept it as such-the great interest my department is taking in the formation of trade with that area. In the course of one article in this publication Mr. Lemieux, who is the commercial counsellor in Guatemala said:
One serious difficulty in increasing Canadian sales is the lack of adequate shipping services, especially on the Caribbean-Atlantlc coast. That problem is even more acute during the Canadian winter when exports usually have to be routed at greater cost via ports like New York.
This lack of shipping of course is not general with respect to the whole area. The shipping services provided by the Canada-Jamaica Line to Guatemala and El Salvador are adequate, and so of course are the services to Panama. Problems arise in connection with our route to Nicaragua, Honduras and Costa Rica, and their trade is not sufficient to establish or sustain a scheduled cargo liner service from eastern Canadian ports. In consequence, some of the shipments have to be routed through New York and it is very difficult to develop a satisfactory volume of trade. I would just like to say to the hon. gentleman that his suggestions will be looked at very carefully. We have been very reluctant to use financial assistance for the purpose of subsidizing shipping services; but we do recognize that there is some sort of a chicken and egg relationship and we shall certainly take his proposals into very serious consideration.



LABOUR CONDITIONS-QUEBEC-REPORTED INCREASE IN UNEMPLOYMENT

Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, during the question period, I asked the Acting Prime Minister to confirm or deny the figures concerning unemployment in the Montreal region.
The minister said that the figures I put forward were inaccurate. He denied the figures I quoted from a Montreal nev/spaper and which were issued, more particularly by the regional manager of the unemployment insurance commission office in Montreal.
I am also amazed, Mr. Speaker, to notice that while we are discussing such a serious problem which concerns every individual, every Canadian taxpayer affected by this

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion plague of unemployment, this government does not seem interested. I notice that at the present time not one minister is in the house to give us information as to the exact situation of unemployment affecting the Montreal area.
I am not surprised to see that those ministers are not in the house to give us some information on the election promises they made when they sat in opposition, namely that if the Liberal party came to office, it would set up a bureau of statistics so that hon. members and members of the unemployment insurance commission could be made aware of the exact situation of employment. At that time it was said that the system used by the unemployment insurance commission and the dominion bureau of statistics provided inaccurate figures.
After two years of Liberal administration we are still waiting for that election promise to be carried out so that hon. members will know the exact situation in all regions affected by unemployment.
As I said, I am amazed to see that no minister is in his seat to confirm that increase in the unemployment affecting the province of Quebec and particularly the Montreal area or at least to give us some detailed information.
An English language newspaper of Montreal specified that the number of unemployed in the province of Quebec has increased by 27 per cent between April and September 1964.
In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, the government authorities should immediately take an interest in those statistics and tell us what they intend to do in order to stem unemployment in the province of Quebec which is especially affected by that situation.
I have here the pamphlet which my Liberal opponent circulated in my riding in the last election campaign. It says that the Liberal party is the only one which can solve unemployment by a program for the expansion of our industrial production. It says also that the Liberal government is the only one who will bring about full employment.
After two years under the Liberal regime we are far from full employment, when we consider that almost 40,000 taxpayers in the Montreal area are unemployed.
Not long ago the Minister of Justice (Mr. Favreau), under the pressure of a few members of the splinter parties including the N.D.P., was upset by the fact that prisoners, especially at the St. Vincent de Paul peni-


tentiary, were kept in small cells lacking elementary sanitary facilities.
Well, Mr. Speaker, if it is desirable to get more sanitary premises for prisoners, I feel that it is much more human for this government to get jobs for the unemployed who are law-abiding citizens of this country.
There are unemployed in the Montreal area and in other parts of Canada, who live in slums and old tenements. I aun surprised that the Minister of Justice does not have so much regard for the families affected by unemployment who comprise honest people and law-abiding citizens of our country. The government ignores those people who ask only one thing, to earn an honest living.
Our present government is not interested in the unemployment which prevails in the Montreal district and in the province of Quebec.
Some statistics show, Mr. Speaker, that 2,000 persons were employed this year in the building industry in the metropolitan area.
I will point out that if some 2,000 persons were employed, it is due to the construction work required by the world fair which was of course initiated under the Conservative party. But without this wonderful achievement I am wondering what the employment situation would be in the province of Quebec.
In my opinion the Minister of Industry should admit that the province of Quebec and the whole of the city of Montreal constitute a depressed area. I think this would be more in conformity with the policy being preached by the Liberal party.
But the present government would not dare take the chance of taking this step because, in so doing, it would admit its utter failure with regard to employment in this country.
I am absolutely appalled by the lack of interest and concern shown the unemployed and the unemployment situation in the metropolitan area.
There are 21 electoral districts in the city of Montreal. Of these, one is Conservative, the others, Liberal. What astounds me is that no member for the city of Montreal rises, here, in the house, as it is his duty to do, to ask the government to intervene in this slump in the metropolitan region and to demand that the government take drastic measures to remedy the critical unemployment situation.
The situation scares us because we ask ourselves what will become of our families

this winter when there are already so many unemployed at a time which is favourable to construction?
I ask the government to deny the figures I have given, or else to take the necessary steps to improve this unfortunate situation.


Mr. J. A. Byrne (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the only statistics appearing in the article to which the hon. member referred, a copy of which I must say I have been unable to obtain, for which the national employment service takes any responsibility are those for the Montreal metropolitan area. In the metropolitan area there were 41,812 registrations, which of course are always higher than the number of unemployed, as of October 30, 1963, and 38,868 on October 30, 1964, or a reduction of 2,944 for that month. Any other figures quoted are the responsibility of the Gazette, a usually reliable paper, especially of late. However, the sweeping figures quoted are simply not in accordance with the facts.
According to the labour force summary for September supplied by the Department of Labour and d.b.s., the latest figure available shows a substantial decrease in unemployment in the Quebec region over last year. On September 21 last year there were 108,000 unemployed, while on September 21 this year there were no more than 84,000 unemployed, a decrease of 24,000. From August to September of this year there was a decrease of 16,000 in the unemployed in the Quebec region. The most recent unemployment figure available for all of Canada stands at 3.1 per cent of the labour force, the lowest in eight years.
I think it can be said that we have reached a new low in unemployment and in fact it was reported recently that the premier of
Supply-Items Passed Ontario was seeking to import many thousands of people from the Orient to work in the labour force of that province. While I am not sure what the premier of Quebec is doing in Europe, it could be he is looking for stonemasons to build the penitentiary to which the hon. member has referred. But, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to be just as careless with facts as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) seems to have been in the last few days.


Georges-J. Valade: Is that the full employment you are talking about-40,000 unemployed?
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 10.30 p.m.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply this day]:



DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
1. Departmental administration, $363,600.
la. Departmental administration including the expenses of the advisory committee on broadcasting, $84,000.
5. Companies and corporations branch, $167,300.
10. Translation bureau, $1,994,000.
15. Patent division, copyright and industrial designs division and trade marks office including contributions to the international office for the protection of literary and artistic works and the international office for the protection of industrial property and authority for the governor in council, notwithstanding the Patent Act, to prescribe
(a)	the fee payable on filing an application for patent, the fee payable on grant of a patent, and the fee payable on petition to re-issue a patent after surrender, which fees shall be deemed, for the purposes of the Patent Act, to be the fees set forth in section 75 thereof; and
(b)	renewal fees, payable during the term of each patent issued on an application filed after a date to be set by order in council, such fees to be a prerequisite for the maintenance of the patent rights notwithstanding section 49 of the Patent Act, $2,810,100.
[Stage Direction]


Friday, November 6, 1964