1964-07-28

PRESENCE IN GALLERY OF PRIME MINISTER OF MALAYSIA AND PARTY

Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, it is my honour and my pleasure to welcome to our House of Commons Tunku Abdul Rahman, the prime minister of Malaysia, together with two members of his government, the ambassador in Washington, minister without portfolio, and the minister of information and broadcasting, and other members of their party. The prime minister was last here in 1960 as the prime minister of Malaya. We now welcome him as the prime minister of Malaysia, the federation of Malaya, Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah. This imaginative concept was largely his. Indeed, I believe he can consider himself as the major founder of the new federation. Under his leadership the peoples of Malaysia have been brought closer together in freedom, democracy and greater human welfare.
Today, Mr. Speaker, as we know, they are resisting political, economic and indeed military pressure from outside; pressure dedicated to their destruction. In the words of the communique of the recent commonwealth prime ministers' conference in London, we give the prime minister and his people the assurance of our sympathy and, perhaps what is more important, our support in their resistance to this kind of aggression. We are happy indeed that Malaysia is in the commonwealth of nations. We are proud to be associated with her in that great association that spans the world. Our two countries have always enjoyed friendly relations, and these relations will be even closer as a result of this visit which, though very short, will I hope be a happy and fruitful one.
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the
Opposition): Mr. Speaker, from time to time there are instances in the house of complete agreement. This is one of those occasions. I join with the Prime Minister in welcoming the prime minister of Malaysia, Tunku Rahman, an outstanding statesman, a wise counsellor and one who, by reason of his
membership in the British bar, has applied the principles of the rule of law and parliamentary government in his country. His enlightened leadership deserves the commendation of all who cherish freedom.
The Prime Minister has said in effect that throughout his life the Tunku has been in the front line of freedom. No one among the leaders of the various countries of the world has been a more dedicated fighter in the cause of freedom against communists. The Prime Minister has said in effect that the Tunku was the architect of unity in his country. He has now become the father of Malaysia, dedicated to the commonwealth. He was present at those prime ministers' conferences of 1960 and 1961 when we laid the foundations of non-discrimination on the basis of colour, race or creed within this commonwealth, consummated as were those concepts at the last meeting of the prime ministers.
The eyes of Asia are upon the Federation of Malaysia. The state of Malaya, as it was, was subject to a ceaseless barrage of propaganda, infiltration and subversion from red China. Against such activities, under his sterling stand for freedom Malaya was triumphant. Today, as the Prime Minister says, the federation faces other challenges; indeed, faces survival from overt aggression.
I was glad when the prime ministers' conference came out not only with words of sympathy but of promised support for Malaysia. Experience has shown that sympathy or moral support is not much of a rampart against aggression. Anything that the government of Canada may do, already having given certain undertakings for the training of forces within our country, the provision of technicians and also, I would say, additional credit for other requirements by Malaysia, will receive the support of the Canadian people as a whole.
I join with the Prime Minister in his words of official welcome. I join too as one who is honoured to number the Tunku among his friends. I visited Malaya; I visited Singapore. In both those places I received that reception that is characteristic of the commonwealth. Today in giving this welcome to a great leader in the commonwealth, a

Distinguished Visitors
world leader, we honour ourselves while purporting to honour him.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: The members of this party are happy to join with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in extending a hearty welcome to His Royal Highness Tunku Adbul Rahman, prime minister of Malaysia, and the members of his party.
It is a source of pride to all of us that in recent years so many parts of the commonwealth have attained national independence and established democratic self government. Now, in this period, they require more than ever time in which to develop viable economies, in which to grapple with their social problems, and, above all, to preserve their territorial integrity and firmly establish parliamentary institutions.
We are glad the prime minister has visited Canada and is meeting with members of our government. I hope that as a result of this visit Canada will be able to play a useful part in helping Malaysia to maintain its independence and develop the way of democratic self government upon which it has set its feet. This party is very glad to welcome the prime minister and our other visitors from Malaysia.


Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: On behalf of our party permit me to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is a distinct honour and privilege to extend our warmest greetings to His Royal Highness Tunku Abdul Rahman, the distinguished prime minister of Malaysia and the members of his party.
We in this country have watched the Tun-ku's statesmanship with deep admiration and respect. All Canadians have felt an anxious concern for the immediate troubles of his country in its struggle for survival against the forces of aggression and neo-imperialism. It is this concern that is so characteristic of a family in which the problems and needs of one can be shared by all. Truly it is this sentiment which is the fibre of this great commonwealth of nations. It is this intangible bond which links men of all races, creeds and colours together, in times of distress as well as in times of peace. I am confident when I say that this link is stronger than ever between the sister countries of Malaysia and Canada.
I join with the Prime Minister and the leaders of other parties in this house in welcoming the prime minister of Malaysia. We know that Malaysia is many thousands of

miles away from us, but all Canadians greet him warmly on his visit to this home away from home. We can only pray that his brief stay in or country will be all he had hoped and, indeed even more.


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, we are glad to join with our Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) in welcoming to Canada the prime minister of Malaysia.
Malaysia and Canada may be far apart if one considers the distance in miles between them, but we are brought closer to one another by the common tie which unites us in the commonwealth of nations.
We are following closely, with sympathy and interest, the struggle put up by the prime minister of Malaysia and his people against international communism.
We pay tribute to the people of Malaysia and their leader, who are in the first line of battle against communism, and we hope our country will be in a position to co-operate with all the nations of the world, and especially the people of Malaysia, in this valiant fight that country is putting up. We are confident that victory will smile on those who fight, and it is the wish that we express to the prime minister and the people of Malaysia.



PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of standing committee on public accounts-Mr. Baldwin.


[Stage Direction]
1964-MID-YEAR REVIEW"
Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade
and Commerce): I beg leave to table a report, "Private and Public Investment in Canada- Outlook '64, mid-year review," which summarizes the results of a recent survey undertaken to check on the capital expenditure intentions for the current year.
Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Sharp:: In view of the significance of this report I should like to make a few brief comments. The report indicates that there has been a remarkable build-up in 1964 capital spending programs since the previous survey was undertaken at the beginning of the year. On the basis of this new informa-

tion on investment plans, total capital outlays anticipated for 1964 amount to $10.8 billion, about $700 million or 7 per cent higher than previously indicated and 16 per cent above actual outlays last year.
This is the greatest year to year increase in capital spending since 1956. Most of the upward adjustment has occurred in the business sector of the economy, where anticipated outlays are now 10 per cent higher than previously estimated and 18 per cent above last year's expenditure. It is particularly noteworthy that capital outlays in manufacturing industries are now expected to approximate $1J billion in 1964, an increase of more than $400 million or 31 per cent from last year's level.
In the case of housing, renewal of the winter incentive program and a stronger trend in starts this spring than was expected earlier has warranted an upward adjustment from 11 per cent to 18 per cent in the estimated increase in work put in place this year compared with last. In the area of institutional and public investment there has been a moderate upward revision in estimated outlays, which are now expected to rise by 9 per cent from a year ago.
The recent acceleration in the pace of capital spending in Canada has far reaching significance for the Canadian economy. For the current year it has given strong impetus to the economy generally and has been an important factor in the relatively sharp-4 per cent-increase in total employment this year compared with last. The 16 per cent increase anticipated in total capital outlays involves a 17 per cent increase in outlays for new machinery and equipment and a 15 per cent increase in expenditure on new construction. The sharp rise in outlays for new machinery and equipment has meant increased activity in equipment producing industries and also helps to account for the sharp growth in imports this year.
Outlays for construction, on the other hand, have a predominantly domestic impact and the substantial increase in this type of expenditure is being reflected in the domestic construction trades and related material producing industries. Some material suppliers, in fact, are encountering difficulty in meeting the added demands. It is possible, therefore, that lengthened delivery dates for items such as structural steel may cause delays on some projects.
Mr. Speaker, I feel that I should also add an assurance that the upward revision in the total program is not likely to add significantly
Report on Canadian Economic Outlook to the existing demands on resources. Estimates of actual outlays for the early months of 1964 show that capital spending was already running close to the annual rate indicated by the recent survey. Accordingly, realization of this program would involve little further increase beyond the level of activity already under way in the year to date.
The new surge in capital expansion now under way has important implications for future years as well as for the present year. The appearance of so many major new expansion projects throughout Canadian industry can only mean that businessmen look forward with confidence to expanding markets in the years to come. If this judgment is sound it means that conditions of economic slack are giving way to dynamic growth. This new environment brings renewed hope to the growing number of young people coming on to the labour market, and gives promise of a continuing pace of economic advance commensurate with our growing productive capabilities.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it is naturally quite impossible to follow in detail the statement that has just been made. Suffice it to say that what is taking place in Canada represents a course similar to that in the United States. There has been in that country a vast increase in economic growth during the last year and a half. The beginning of this economic growth-and I call as my witness the Minister of Trade and Commerce in his extraterritorial addresses in London, Florida and elsewhere-[DOT] occurred about 2j years ago; something that was not admitted until after effective use had been made by those now sitting in the treasury benches of the very opposite contention.
I am not going to refer to the question of employment. That is being dealt with and will be dealt with at further length during the discussions on interim supply. F,ut when the minister says that what is taking place will be particularly attractive to young men and women, let me point out that according to the latest statistics one of the areas in which employment is not being provided and where the greatest percentage increase in unemployment has taken place relative to the general picture has been in the group 16 to 19 years of age.
With regard to the great increase in capital expenditures on machinery and the like, I should like to have the figures in this respect prior to March 31 and after March 31. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that an 11 per cent sales tax by instalment was applied as against
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Report on Canadian Economic Outlook machinery and building materials, and there was apparently a great rush just before the deadline of March 31, at which time the instalment increased by 4 per cent on building materials and the like, in order to build up an amount on hand for storage so as to obviate the need to finance on the basis of a larger tax bite.
However, none of us as Canadians would do other than welcome anything which will bring about an expanding economy, and we on this side of the house are never going to take the attitude, which was the characteristic propaganda of hon. gentlemen now sitting opposite when they were over here, of downgrading our country


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: -of deliberately misrepresenting the facts, endeavouring to build up in this country cause for gloom among the people. We believe in playing our part as an opposition to encourage expansion in Canada instead of preaching a doctrine of gloom for purely political purposes, as did hon. members opposite.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the number of interruptions indicate those who should be in the suppliant bench asking for forgiveness for the kind of thing which they did for so long.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the Minister of Trade and Commerce for the modesty with which he announced the increase in investment, and the Leader of the Opposition for the equal modesty with which he tried to take the credit for it. I should like to say that an increase in capital investment in Canada is, of course, a very good augury, one which we welcome.
There are two factors we must keep in mind. Only by examination of the figures the minister has tabled can we know to what extent these two factors are being realized. The first is whether this increase in capital investment is adequate to provide for full employment and reasonable economic growth. As long as this country has unemployment our economy is not growing fast enough to provide jobs and there is insufficient capital investment. Therefore, while we are pleased that there is an increase in capital investment, we must temper our enthusiasm with the reminder that we have not yet established full employment in Canada nor come close to it.
The second factor, which I think is even more important, is into what channels this


investment is to be directed. Investment by itself without having regard to human welfare and human needs can be a very meaningless thing. We can have a society in which we have adequate filling stations to look after our cars and not enough hospitals to look after our sick, or plenty of supermarkets in which to shop and not enough schools to which to send our children.
If I remember the survey which was made of capital investment for 1964, it was estimated that investment in schools this year would be down substantially. I hope this will not prove to be the case in the figures which the minister has tabled, but if it is the case then it demonstrates that in Canada we need to begin to establish some order of priority in investment so that investment is directed into social capital projects to improve our standard of life and not just our standard of living.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, we certainly are pleased with the report by the Minister of Trade and Commerce indicating growing and increasing prosperity in Canada. This can only be for the benefit of all Canadians. However, if the minister would check where the greatest amount of capital development is taking place I am sure he would find that by far the greater part of it, at least on a per capita basis, is in the provinces of British Columbia and Alberta.
We have a long way to go yet in Canada. I would say that when the government is able to announce that the annual increase in the gross national product has reached 10 per cent; when our annual population increase, which involves an expanded immigration policy, is 5 per cent; when 50 per cent of Canadian industry is truly owned by Canadians, and when 200,000 more Canadians now unemployed are put to work, we will really have something to boast about.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, we are not too much surprised by the statement made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Sharp) concerning investments in Canada, because we think that the increase just announced is but the reflection of a normal development which is due, of course, to the increase in population and to the modernization of means of production.
This is not surprising, because there is nothing surprising in progress; on the contrary, it must be anticipated, for if we do not move forward we can but move back, and then we have a recession.

But what is surprising is to note that the progress announced is only taking place in the material field, that is the investment field. It is the only field where progress is experienced in our economy in general.
As to the other segments of our economy, especially the one affecting more closely the human aspect of our country, it is in regression; according to the latest statistics released on July 22 last, unemployment in Canada had reached an average of 5.2 per cent, or the highest index in our country in the last 22 years.
The number of bankruptcies reported in June in Ontario is probably the largest recorded in that province in many years.
Moreover, Mr. Speaker, while the investments are made in our country, the resulting profits leave even faster for other countries, going to foreign capitalists as dividends, interest and profits.
It is true that the investments are made in Canada, but the profits go somewhere else. What good is it then to invest in our country if Canadians do not gain anything by it?
The day the Minister of Trade and Commerce gets up to say that Canadians are responsible for the investments and will get the profits, then he will deserve our congratulations. But as long as it is known that foreigners come to invest in our country and leave with the profits, as long as that situation prevails in Canada there will be no reason to congratulate the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
We are told that industries are mushrooming and buildings are erected everywhere; however that is not for us but for others, and if the minister wants to be congratulated, he should see to it that investments in Canada are made by and for Canadians. Then we shall be the first to congratulate him. [Text]


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order in connection with the report tabled by the Minister of Trade and Commerce to protest against this procedure, which is contrary to the usages and customs of the house. I base my protest on the recognized authority of the present Minister of Transport, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. When I tabled a similar report in 1959 and prefaced it with a few remarks that the results indicated were the product of good government, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate rose to protest. I enter the same protest now. These reports should simply be tabled without prefatory remarks.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Pickersgill:: Mr. Speaker, since my name has been drawn into this matter may I say I have but one comment to make, and it is "sour grapes".


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I would draw the attention of the house to the fact that nowhere in this report did I make any reference to the policies of the government except with respect to the winter works program, which I had to do for purposes of elucidation. It was a factual report.
I would suggest one other thing also; that the reason I made the report and wanted to make certain comments was that some officials and others who read the report expressed the view that the country would need some reassurance about the effects upon material supplies.



CANADIAN CENTENNIAL


Hon. Maurice Lamonlagne (Secretary of Slate):: Mr. Speaker, at the request of the hon. member for Regina City I wish to table a letter from the premier of Saskatchewan addressed to me on July 7 and related to centennial projects in that province.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs in connection with the Cyprus situation. In view of the statement of Archbishop Makarios in Athens to the effect that Cyprus has not changed its attitude and will refuse to allow Canadian and United Nations troops freedom of movement, is it now the intention of the government to withdraw the Canadian contingent?
I ask that question in view of the obviously inspired story in today's Globe and Mail to the effect that Canadian troops would not be needed in Cyprus after the autumn. Will the minister make a statement and advise us whether this article, which certainly must have come to his attention, is the result of well informed speculation or just pure speculation?


Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: I read the article in question. I see no relationship between the article
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Inquiries of the Ministry and the headline. I have already indicated that Canada has been in consultation with the other contributors to the force, and that as a member of the United Nations force, whatever the decision is it will be taken by the United Nations and not by any individual country contributing to that force.
With regard to the statement attributed to the head of the government of Cyprus, this statement has not, I am advised by United Nations authorities, been received by them. It was made, as reported in the newspapers, prior to the meeting between the head of the government of Cyprus and the prime minister of Greece. I would be interested in knowing the conclusions reached between the heads of these two governments before I , make any final observation on what might be considered to be the trend of events.
I have already indicated to the house that there are discussions going on elsewhere, and while one would not want to exaggerate the possible consequences of those, I would be distressed if as a result of those discussions there was not progress being made. I want to make it clear that by the terms of section 32 of the agreement as to the status of the United Nations peace keeping force in Cyprus, which was concluded by an exchange of letters on March 31, 1964, the force and its members together with its service vehicles, vessels, aircraft and equipment shall enjoy freedom of movement throughout Cyprus.
The reported decision, and I emphasize the word "reported", by the government of Cyprus to deny freedom of movement to the United Nations force is clearly contrary to 'the formal agreement entered into with the United Nations. It is contrary also to the spirit and letter of the security council resolution which calls upon the communities in Cyprus, and their leaders, to act with the utmost restraint. The Canadian government has been in communication with the United Nations and is pursuing the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: How long ago was it since freedom of movement was first denied United Nations forces, particularly the Canadian force?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Freedom of access was denied about a week ago. There was an incident previous to that, but generally speaking there has been no position taken against freedom of movement, which is one of the essential terms of the agreement based on the understanding between the secretary general of the United Nations and the government of Cyprus.


John George Diefenbaker: Does the minister then admit that there has been a change in attitude on the part of Archbishop Makarios, and that today the position of the UN force is that without that freedom of movement it enjoyed to a certain extent in the past, it will not to be able to discharge its responsibilities?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would not agree that the United Nations force, by its very presence, is unable to discharge the responsibility which it has assumed. Undoubtedly the denial of freedom of movement impairs its full opportunity to carry out its mandate. However, I would recall to my right hon. friend that in other peace keeping operations, notably the Congo and even the United Nations emergency force, there were periods of resistance when the force was not able to carry out its responsibilities. If the force in this instance is denied freedom of movement, unfavourable results will not be due to United Nations efforts. I believe that more than ever the United Nations force is required in the circumstances.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: agree with the minister that the United Nations force is required in Cyprus, but am I to take it from his statement that he does not consider the violation of its solemn obligation by the government of Cyprus to be a serious thing? Does he not consider that the denial of access or freedom of movement can make the United Nations force ineffective in the long run?


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: Of course I acknowledge it as a serious thing. I said that at the outset in reply to the right hon. gentleman. However, I pointed out also, as my hon. friend well knows, that frustrations and obstacles have attended the United Nations in many other peace keeping efforts. However, great as those obstacles are, those who believe in the charter should not be daunted in taking every step within the limitations of article II subsection 7 of the charter, to see that the United Nations carries out, to the extent which is possible, the role given to it by the 112 nations, which make up its membership.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask a supplementary question. I quite understand the Secretary of State for External Affairs not wanting to comment on the statement attributed to Archbishop Makarios until it has been verified. May I ask him, can the house have the assurance that if the statement attributed to the head of the government of Cyprus is accurate, strong representations will be made

to make it clear that the government of Cyprus must live up to its solemn obligations and the United Nations force must have freedom of movement if it is to play an effective role?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, I have indicated that we have already made very strong representations to the acting secretary general, Mr. Bunche, in the absence of the secretary general who is in Moscow.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eric Stefanson (Selkirk):: I have a question for the Prime Minister. Is the right hon. gentleman aware that the prime minister of Iceland, Dr. Bjarni Benediktsson, will be visiting Canada shortly and will be arriving at Winnipeg, Manitoba on Saturday, August 1? Has an invitation been extended to the prime minister of Iceland to visit Ottawa during his stay in Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, I am aware that the prime minister of Iceland is doing us the honour of paying an unofficial visit to this country. He is going to Manitoba, where on behalf of the government he will be greeted by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. I have already written the prime minister, and I understand that on the occasion of this unofficial visit he is going to Manitoba and the western provinces.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Monimorency):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and I am asking for a definition.
I merely want to ask him if he made inquiries following the question put to him last Friday by the hon. member for Lake St. John (Mr. Lessard) regarding the obtaining of visas for members of the Russian team taking part in the St. Lawrence bicycle race?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, Mr. Speaker, but, unfortunately, I do not have the reply with me. However, I shall give that information to the hon. member tomorrow.
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Inquiries of the Ministry



SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Norman Thompson: My question is directed to the Prime Minister. Westminster, the mother of parliaments, has today paid tribute to Sir Winston Churchill as he approaches retirement, and has formally recorded its unbounded admiration and gratitude to him. In view of Canada's slowness in expressing its gratitude to this greatest of commonwealth statesmen, has the Prime Minister any plans for similar action?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The action to which my hon. friend has referred was taken in the British House of Commons. A resolution based on that action was to be delivered to Right Hon. Sir Winston Churchill this afternoon, I believe. It had been in my mind that when that procedure had been completed in London today, perhaps on motions tomorrow this house might be given an opportunity to associate itself with this tribute to a great leader of parliament and of freedom, this very great man.



HEALTH AND WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
consumers' advisory COUNCIL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Pritlie (Burnaby-Richmond):: should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare a question concerning the appointment to the consumers' advisory council. Yesterday, the minister said the council would consist of 14 women and two men. I should like to know why there is this discrimination against men whose hard work provides the women consumers with the money to spend.



REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON USE OF DRUG PARNATE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. C. Harley (Hallon):: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare if she has anything further to report on the recommendation of the ad hoc committee on the drug parnate?


Mr. J. C. Munro (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take that question as notice.

Inquiries of the Ministry BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE



DELAY IN ADOPTING REPORT OF PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Beaule (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. On July 14 last I asked him the following question:
Could he tell us why the submission of the second report of the committee on privileges and elections has been delayed and when he intends to submit it?
At that time the Minister of Justice said:
Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to answer this matter now but I will look into the matter.
Could the minister tell the house whether he now has the necessary information?


Hon. Guy Favreau (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I understand an agreement was passed between the chairman of the committee on privileges and elections and the members of the said committee to the effect that as soon as the report is tabled a motion would be put on the order paper for its passage. Immediately following the presentation of the report, a motion was put on the order paper and, since then, because some members of the house expressed the view that some items of business should have priority, the hon. member who had put the motion thought it proper to postpone its discussion so that legislation as important as the bill dealing with student loans, for instance, could be passed and also the motion dealing with interim supply, so that the business of the government could be carried out in a normal way.
I understand that there will be subsequent discussions between the members concerned and that we will be in a position to give an answer within a few days as to the date when the motion now on the order paper can be discussed.



POSSIBILITY OF FURTHER SALES TO RUSSIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Olson (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In this morning's Gazette there is a story, datelined Moscow, which claims informed western observers believe there is a reasonable chance Russia is going to buy more Canadian wheat

this year. I would like to ask the minister whether the Russians have assessed their needs against their crop and made any overtures to the Canadian government or the wheat board regarding the purchase of wheat, and especially flour?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, as I have said on a number of occasions the Canadian wheat board is in constant communication with the Russian authorities and will, we believe, be in a position to sell wheat to the Soviet union if that country finds that its needs it. As an added contact my colleague the Minister of Agriculture announced, I think today, that a mission consisting of the minister of agriculture from the Soviet union and some of his officials will be coming to Canada later in the month of August. This will give another opportunity for the Russians to have direct discussions with us.


John George Diefenbaker: As a supplementary question, I wonder whether the minister had any interpretation or information from our embassy in Moscow regarding the statement made by Chairman Khrushchev in his report to the U.S.S.R. supreme soviet the other day, in which he stated:
Thus, we have realistic opportunities developing for obtaining this year enough grain to fulfil- and for many districts even to over fulfil-the plan of grain procurements to meet in full the country's grain requirements and to store substantial quantities of it.
Has any information been asked from our embassy in this connection as to the meaning of these words, which are very significant?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, we have an officer who is making a special study of agricultural developments in the Soviet union. I have not seen any messages dealing especially with this particular report, but I am sure the right hon. gentleman shares with me a desire to sell wheat to Russia this year, and the hope that there will be a market for Canadian wheat. I am sure he would not want to do anything to interfere with that possibility.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that is an obvious observation and one with which I completely associate myself. It was not my statement. It was Khrushchev's statement I asked about, as to whether there had been any request made to have this explained and the minister, with characteristic opaqueness, decided not to answer the question.


Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson: As a further supplementary question, several weeks ago the Minister of

Trade and Commerce partially undertook to make some forward announcement respecting additional foreign aid from Canada in the form of flour, to take up some of the slack in the milling industry when the Russian order is completed at the end of this month. Is he now in a position to make any statement respecting this so that we may not have a large part of our flour milling industry shut down in a few days?


Mitchell William Sharp: Mr. Speaker, I had a delegation from the millers' association meet with me in my office some two weeks ago. We had a thorough discussion of the outlook for flour milling, and we had a special discussion about the possibility of providing flour through foreign aid. However, I would not want to mislead the house. As the hon. gentleman knows, it is not likely this year that there will be orders for flour corresponding to those we were fortunate enough to receive last year.


Mr. Gerald A. Regan (Halifax):: As a supplementary question, in any flour aid program that might develop will the minister keep in mind the use of the Atlantic ports of Halifax and Saint John for part of the flour shipments?



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs with regard to Canada's peace keeping activities on behalf of the 113 members of the United Nations. Is the Cyprus operation the only one in which Canada has been obliged to bear the full cost of her military contribution?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, in the case of the Yemen observation mission Canada is serving there although the expenses are not borne by the United Nations. They are borne by the two countries involved, the U.A.R. and Saudi Arabia. Canada, in the case of the Congo, has put up money along with certain other countries who in addition have volunteered special funds, but this is the first case where Canada has borne its financial share without getting any immediate reimbursement from the United Nations as such. The reason for that is, as I said yesterday,
Inquiries of the Ministry that if this had not been done there would have been no United Nations force in Cyprus and, as we know now, if there had been no
United Nations force in Cyprus, we might have had war.


Gordon Minto Churchill: When the minister says this is the first instance in which Canada has borne its share what is Canada's share as among the 113 nations comprising the United Nations?


Murdo William Martin: Well, Canada's normal assessment to the United Nations in a year would be around $5 million but, as my hon. friend knows, the United Nations is faced with a serious financial problem. It is able to carry on these peace keeping operations only because certain member states are prepared to do more than their ordinary share in order to live up to the obligations of the charter. That is a reputation that I am proud Canada has been able to uphold.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I am simply asking for information. I do not know why the minister has to be so apologetic about it. Is the cost to Canada of the Cyprus operation approximating $2 million a month?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I want to say I was not being apologetic. I was being proud of the fact that Canada is living up to her obligations under the charter. The total cost of the Cyprus operation would not be anything like $2 million a month. I think the total cost of Canada's participation, including the air lift, would be around $2J million for the year.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: am sorry to disturb the Secretary of State for External Affairs, but I would like to ask him this question. Did I hear him correctly when he said that the total, over-all cost of maintaining our force in Cyprus is $2,500,000 per year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think the hon. gentleman had better look at my statement.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Did you say "per year"?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I said "the net cost".


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a point of order, the
minister of external affairs, in answer to my question, said "on a year's basis" when he gave the total cost.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Paul Joseph James Martin: Let the hon. gentleman not become unduly excited about this. He can look at my reply, and if he is not satisfied I am sure he will remind me about it.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yesterday the minister of external affairs interrupted in order to correct an answer he had given me previously, and I was waiting for him to do the same on this occasion.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think the hon. gentleman-


John George Diefenbaker: How do you figure out this "net" business? It would be interesting to know. I understood that the cost for three months would be about $2,500,000 and the cost for the additional month would amount to another $1,500,000, but what does this "net cost" mean?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Surely the right hon. gentleman does not wish me to instruct him as to what net cost means.


John George Diefenbaker: That is a very good answer, but it does not answer the question. Where is the profit that you set against these expenditures in order to arrive at net cost? I think it was net nonsense.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Some people, sometimes, when they refer to the net cost also mean the marginal cost.


Mr. Pigeon:: The Martin bureau of statistics.


Mr. K. H. More (Regina City):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. The Secretary of State for External Affairs has given us the net marginal cost of the peace keeping force in Cyprus. Could the minister give us the total over-all cost?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to take the question as to the total cost as notice. I presume the hon. gentleman means the gross cost plus the net cost.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: We want to know how much it costs.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The net profit, too.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Guy Marcoux: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour.
Could he tell the house whether Canadian funds were involved in the embezlement with which James Hoff a, president of the teamsters union, was charged?


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minister of Labour):: According to the information we have, the embezzlement was from the pension funds of a local union situated in the United States. Therefore no Canadian funds would be involved.



OSHAWA, ONT.  REQUEST OF DISTRICT LABOUR COUNCIL TO DISCUSS WAGE RATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Allan Joseph MacEachen: May I take this opportunity to reply to a question raised yesterday by the hon. member for Ontario. I should like to inform him that a telegram has been received from the Oshawa-Port Hope-Cobourg and district building and construction trades council, and that a meeting has been arranged with officials of the Department of Labour for Thursday, July 30.



VANCOUVER, B.C.-CONTRACT FOR PAINTING VETERANS HOUSES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Allan Joseph MacEachen: I should like to take this opportunity to reply to a question raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway. May I advise him that our chief industrial relations officer in Vancouver was in touch with the contractor concerned within the last two weeks to draw his attention to the labour conditions of the contract. I am advised that he has been assured by the contractor that the labour conditions will be fully observed.
As is the usual practice, inspections will be made from time to time by officials of the department to verify that the labour conditions are being observed.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldt-Melfori-Tisdale):: I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. It has to do with changes in standards for moisture content in red spring wheat and amber Durum wheat. I notice that the chairman of the board of grain commissioners is in Ottawa. Has the minister discussed with him the effect which these new regulations, providing for the reduction by half of 1 per cent in the allowable limit of moisture, may have on grain producers, particularly in years when harvesting conditions are difficult? Can the minister report to the house on this matter?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: First I wish to thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. This matter is currently under review with representatives of farm organizations, and I will be happy to keep the house informed of developments.



REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MINISTER'S BIOGRAPHY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Terry Nugent (Edmonton-Slralhcona):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder whether the minister will table a copy of the press release of Monday last giving his personal biography, so the records of this house will be both accurate and complete in this regard.


Harry William Hays: I will be glad to do so, Mr. Speaker. How many copies does the hon. member wish?


Terence James (Terry) Nugent: Just one will do.



REQUEST FOR INCREASED QUOTA AND EXTENDED DELIVERY PERIOD

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. George Muir (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the surplus oats on the farms in some areas of the prairies, would the minister request the wheat board to give consideration to raising the quota on oats and extending the delivery period beyond the end of the crop year?


Mitchell William Sharp: I will be glad to bring these suggestions to the attention of the wheat
Inquiries of the Ministry board, Mr. Speaker. However, I do not think they will act upon the second suggestion.



ALBERTA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. Horner (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has he had any discussions with the Alberta government concerning the severe drought conditions in south and east central Alberta, and is the government proposing giving any assistance with regard to these drought conditions that exist in central Alberta at this time?


Harry William Hays: I had some discussions with the premier of the province of Alberta, Mr. Speaker, and later I saw the minister of agriculture of the province. They have not presented us with the problem.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and
Victoria): I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, and may I take this opportunity to welcome him back to the house after what I am sure must have been a refreshing visit to the Atlantic coast. My question has reference to written question No. 1,538, answered by him yesterday. Is it correct that Marine Industries Limited of Sorel, Quebec, from which the government purchased the ferry New Grand Haven, were also the appraisers for the government who determined the purchase price of the vessel, namely $1,200,000 U.S.? Can this possibly be so?
John Whitney Pickersgill: I have every reason to believe that the answer I gave is correct, but in view of the hon. gentleman's question I will, of course, be glad to take another look at it.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I may take this opportunity to answer a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Ontario. It will be found at page 6001 of Hansard, reported as follows:

Inquiries of the Ministry
Mr. Speaker, I wanted to address a question to the Minister of Transport, but in his absence I will direct it to his parliamentary secretary or to the acting minister. In view of the action of the C.N.R. management in imposing disciplinary measures on employees of the Canadian National Railways in Oshawa for exercising their good judgment in not crossing a legal picket line, could the minister find out from the management of the railway why there has been this drastic change in policy with respect to legal picket lines, in that formerly there was a mutual understanding, both written and verbal, in respect of such matters?
I am advised by the management that there is no change in policy in this respect. Employees of the company are expected to perform their duties in accordance with the terms of their agreements. It has been the long term company policy that employees must cross picket lines at customers' premises until or unless substantial threats of violence are made, in which event police protection is sought by supervisory officers of the company. Management information is that there are no threats of violence in the Oshawa matter referred to by the hon. member for Ontario.



COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of National Defence. In a radio report today it was indicated that Malaysia is seeking to buy CL-41 jet planes from Canada and it was also stated that Malaysian pilots will be trained in Canada. The CL-41 will soon become the pilot training jet plane at the Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan R.C.A.F. base. Does this mean that Malaysian pilots will receive jet air training at Moose Jaw?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: This question is under consideration now by the Malaysian prime minister. As soon as the requirements of the Malaysian air force are known we shall be in a position to study them. We have already indicated that if the Malaysian air force were to decide to acquire the CL-41 trainer, we would be in a position to give a certain amount of support by way of pilot training.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Monteith (Perth):: I have a question for the Minister of Justice. I think he

will probably be prepared, today, to answer the question asked by my hon. friend from Bow River yesterday concerning the whereabouts of one Hal Banks.


Mr. D. S. Macdonald (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice):: I will give notice of the hon. member's question to the minister. I believe he may be returning to the house in a few minutes.


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I promised to reply to a question put by the hon. member for Bow River and again asked in his name, I understand, a few minutes ago by the hon. member for Perth. The question was as to whether I had any information concerning the alleged fact that certain officers were pursuing police activities here or out of this country in relation to Mr. Banks. I have had discussion with the officials of the R.C.M.P., and as far as I am concerned I am not informed that there are any such activities.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swift Current-Maple Creek):: I wish to ask the Minister of Public Works a question. Has the hon. gentleman given instructions to his department to the effect that personnel appointed in future for service in the Ottawa area must be able to speak both English and French?


Hon. J. P. Deschatelets (Minister of Public Works):: Some months ago-I think it was some time last September-I gave instructions that from then on all those working as elevator operators should be bilingual. This instruction does not affect those who are already working on elevators; they can continue to work as long as they wish. It applies to future appointments, and those who are taken on will have to be bilingual.


John (Jack) McIntosh: I understood the instruction applies to all personnel in the department, including professional personnel, and that it jeopardizes the advancement of English speaking staff in the department serving in Ottawa at the present time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: No, Mr. Speaker, it refers only to elevator operators in the centre block and it was issued because they have to deal with the public.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Postmaster General. Is it the intention of the department that post offices may not operate, or might close their doors, on Saturdays?


Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I have not had notice of the question and I have no information as to any change such as suggested by the hon. member. I might say that in certain communities in Canada post offices are closed on Saturday afternoons, but I have no knowledge of any intention to close them generally on Saturdays. I will be glad to inquire and inform the hon. member.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, but in his absence perhaps I could address it to the acting minister. In view of the continuing rapid increase in the cost of living in Canada during the past 15 months, will the minister consider rescinding the directive that has been issued which will result in drastic reductions in the amount of northern allowances paid to civil servants in our northern communities?


Hon. E. J. Benson (Acting Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources I will be pleased to bring the representations of the hon. member to his attention on his return.



INTERIM SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, July 27, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Mcllraith-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair:
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $696,010,791.01, being the aggregate of-
(a)	two twelfths of the total of all of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending 31 March, 1965, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $658,598,418.50;
Interim Supply
(b)	an additional three twelfths of the amount of transport items 15 and 25, (schedule A) of the said main estimates, $7,044,425;
(c)	an additional one twelfth of the amount of agriculture item 60, fisheries item 20, justice item 1, legislation item 20, mines and technical surveys items 10, 15, 25, 45 and 60, national film board item 1, national health and welfare item 15, northern affairs and national resources items 15 and 35, privy council item 25, transport item 1, loans, investments and advances item L10, (schedule B) of the said main estimates, $9,525,758.34;
(d)	two twelfths of all the items to be voted in the supplementary estimates (A) laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, except national defence item 56a, loans, investments and advances items L17a and L37a, for which no proportion will be granted, $20,840,372.50;
(e)	an additional two twelfths of the amount of justice item 12a (schedule C) of the said supplementary estimates (A), $1,806.67;
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending 31 March, 1965.
["I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:\nOttawa, July 28, 1964\nSir:\nI have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Emmett M. Hall, Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, acting as deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.\nI have the honour to be.\nSir,\nYour obedient servant,\nEsmond Butler,\nSecretary to the Governor General.\nA message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:\nMr. Speaker, it is the desire of the honourable the deputy of his Excellency the Governor General that this honourable house attend him immediately in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.\nInterim Supply\nAccordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate Chamber.\nAnd being returned:\nMr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:\nAn act respecting the Quebec Board of Trade.\nAn act to incorporate Nova Scotia Savings & Loan Company.\nAn act to facilitate the making of loans to students.\nAt six o'clock the house took recess."]
The Chairman:: House in committee of supply; interim supply.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Carried? No sir.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak very briefly on a question of privilege. I was unable to be in the committee yesterday when the hon. member for Bow River, as reported at page 6024 of Hansard, had this to say about me:
Was he-
He was here referring to Mr. Hal Banks:
-a friend of the Minister of Transport? You know what the Minister of Transport said when the Leader of the Opposition was speaking? He said "I don't turn my back on friends".
I am sure that the hon. member-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -for Bow River knows perfectly well that that remark made by me had reference to my friend Walter Harris, and had no reference whatever to Mr. Banks, whom I have never met, have never talked to and with whom I have had no relations of any kind.


Mr. Bell:: You are both seamen.


Lucien Lamoureux: The hon. member for Perth.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order; it has been the experience of members on this side of the house in the past to have questions of privilege refused when notice of less than three minutes has been given. This happened to my hon. friend from Brome-Missisquoi. Yet today the Minister of Transport, enjoying the usual privileges which he denies to other hon. members of this house.



[Stage Direction]
Interim Supply
has once again used his office to impose upon the committee a supposed question of privilege that is not a question of privilege.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if I may say a word on this alleged point of order, I have always been very careful, if I have had a question of privilege, to raise it, as the rules require, at the first opportunity. It may be I was wrong to be in Newfoundland yesterday-


Donald MacInnis: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman-


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. The hon. minister is speaking on the point of order which has been raised. We can hear the hon. member out afterward, but I think the hon. minister should be allowed to speak on the point which has been raised by the hon. member.


Donald MacInnis: That is my point of order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, it may be that I was wrong not to have been in the committee yesterday; but in fact, like many other members, I was not here and this is the first time I have seen these remarks in Hansard,. It seemed to me that since they were obviously defamatory, I had a perfect right to raise a question of privilege; and I did it as quickly and as briefly as I could.


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, I rose to try to get across a point of order and once again point out a very obvious fact, namely that the Minister of Transport rose to answer my point of order without being recognized by the Chair, and therefore did not have a point of order. He has once again not only imposed a question of privilege on the house, but also a point of order, without recognition.


Lucien Lamoureux: The hon. member for Perth.


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Chairman, the fact that the Department of National Health and Welfare has been moving into new quarters in a brand new building out at Tunney's pasture seems to me to present an appropriate occasion to say something concerning the estimates of this department. We are studying something like $700 million in interim supply, and nothing has been put before us concerning the over-all estimates of some seven billions of dollars, except that two departments have been completed and I believe the estimates of two others have each been considered for one day.
I simply want to say that bringing the various offices of the Department of National Health and Welfare, previously distributed
fMr. Maclnnis.]
across Ottawa, under one roof is a very sensible move. When I first became minister of the department I undertook to try to visit all branches of the department situated in various spots in Ottawa with a view to meeting the personnel and seeing the quarters in which they were working, and I found that many of those quarters were of a deplorable character. They were not proper office accommodations at all and, as I say, I think it is a sensible move to put them under one roof. I recall that people came to meetings from all over Ottawa and took some time to get there. There was a considerable waste of time on the part of senior officials in this way, and I think this new move will bring about much more efficient operation of the department.
It certainly strikes me, in view of the description in last evening's Citizen, of the minister's personal office, that she will probably have the most plush executive suite in Ottawa. Possibly these new quarters will provide the tranquil atmosphere which will help the minister to clear her thinking on so many problems, because I do not think clear thinking has been overly evident in the past. I can just picture the minister sauntering around the observation promenade looking over the Gatineau hills deep in thought and coming up with yet another pension plan. Each plan was supposed to be the ultimate in pension schemes, and I am wondering when we are going to get the final one. The white paper which has been promised for months now should surely be in our hands, and I am trusting that the minister will intimate when it will be. The Prime Minister indicated last week, I think, that we would have this white paper very shortly, and I am hoping the minister will indicate the exact date so we will know where we are going.
The government has steadfastly refused to bring forward its regular spending program, and I am wondering whether the government is hoping to cram these estimates, involving billions of dollars, down our throats in the last few days of the session.


Miss LaMarsh:: Following your example.


Mr. Graffley:: "Pass them or else".


Jay Waldo Monteith: I believe that only nine days have been spent on main estimates so far this session, and we have been meeting since February 18. We have had three supply motions, and 15 departments have been called in those motions. Two departments have been completed, agriculture and post office. Ex-

temal affairs has been transferred to the standing committee on external affairs after a one day debate in the committee of the whole house. Public works has been before the house for one day, as has northern affairs, on last Friday. Ten other departments have been available, yet we have only had nine days of study of the government's main estimates.
Mr. Chairman, some research has been done in previous years in this regard, and I have before me the figures for other non-election years; 1955, 1956, 1959, 1960 and the session 1960-61. I have a record of the number of sitting days, the total number of days spent on main estimates and the percentage of the session occupied with main estimates. By the 115th sitting day, which in this session will be tomorrow, the number of days spent on main estimates in 1955 was 17, and five departments had been sent to standing or special committees. In 1956, 20 days at this same period had been spent on main estimates, and five departments had gone to standing or special committees. In 1959 we had spent 27 days on main estimates and six departments had been referred to standing or special committees. In 1960 some 25 days had been spent on main estimates, and five departments had gone to standing or special committees. In the session 1960-61 some 28 days had been spent on main estimates, and two departments had gone to standing or special committees. In this session, by tomorrow, the 115th day, nine days, as I have said, have been spent on main estimates; and one department, the Department of External Affairs, has gone to the standing committee. Usually about one third to one half of the time at this stage of the session has been allotted to consideration of main estimates. The last supply motion we had was on May 26; these estimates have all been before us since.
I think I should stress what is the main function of government. We really would not have to meet if it were not to pass main estimates, to pass the order of supply and put the spending program of the government before the houses of parliament for study and examination. Therefore why have we not been given the opportunity of discussing these main estimates? To me there can be only one of two reasons, Mr. Chairman; either the government hope to get most of them through in the last few days of the session, or they expect to call an election before the completion of the session. The reason has to be one of those two, as I see it.
I do not see how we can excuse the government for not having brought its spending
Interim Supply
program before parliament. It is fine to bring on legislation; that is a necessary function of government. But the real reason parliament meets is to study the spending of the government for the ensuing year. In my opinion the government has been very negligent in this respect. The house leader for the official opposition has tried more than once to get information from the government as to when we are going to have the main estimates. We did have the last two or three Fridays devoted to the main estimates, but prior to that there were only six or seven days spent on them. It seems to me that the discussion of this blue book and the examination of the figures in the blue book representing the spending program of the government should be taken much more seriously than the government have seen fit to take them so far.
I should like to say a few words about the recent conference of health ministers. I would judge the conference to have been nothing but a nice, pleasant visit and completely useless so far as results are concerned. I have read the minister's answer to a question concerning this matter. It is phrased in a nice, pleasant form and indicates a sort of "good time was had by all" atmosphere with regard to the conference.
I understand the only concrete proposal to come out of the conference was made by the provincial ministers of health, and was to the effect that mental and tuberculosis patients should be included under the hospitalization plan. I am told this would involve a federal contribution of approximately $53 million. This is why I asked a question last Wednesday which may not have seemed to be of much import. I inquired of the minister if she had heard from the Minister of Finance as to when and how some of this money might become available, or whether it was available at all. At that time the question went unanswered, but I should like to emphasize the crying need for money in this field.
Others are going to speak on this matter. I am not going to say more about the need for mental health care because others more competent than myself are going to do so, but I understood the minister to indicate that money was the problem. If she knew this all along I wonder why the conference was called. As I said earlier, I know she uttered some very nice words concerning hospital costs and health grants, and these matters were discussed; but we were led to believe that one of the main topics of conversation was going to be the report of the Hall royal commission on health services.


Mr. Weichel:: Mr. Chairman, because Waterloo North is one of the best and most diversified farming areas in Canada, I have been particularly interested in reading the parliamentary committee's second report on pesticides. In Waterloo North we have a high degree of industralization with secondary industry, including one of Canada's largest manufacturers of basic herbicides and other pesticide chemicals. This operation is located in my home town of Elmira, Ontario, and is a $3 million plant.

The committee's studies have served to focus attention on several important considerations relative to the continuing wide scale use of pesticides. I am encouraged to find that the committee feels generally that the danger to human health from the present use of pesticides is small if they are used as directed. The legislation in Canada, both generally and in relation to its enforcement, appears to have protected the people of Canada to date from major hazards from pesticides. These two statements by the committee are most significant when it is realized the part pesticides play in agricultural production and natural resources as well as human health and comfort today.
A compilation of estimated losses caused by insects, plant diseases, weeds and rodents in Canada in 1955 placed the total damage, including the cost of control measures, at $1.25 billion annually. This is a terrific amount. Losses due to weeds exceed $1,000 yearly for the average farm. Yield reduction due to weeds in cereals in Manitoba is an estimated 14 per cent. Returns from herbicide treatment in 1963 have been conservatively set at $32 million, with an investment of only $6 million in herbicides. The benefits from pesticides used in agriculture have been so apparent to users that few detailed statistical studies have been needed to demonstrate the dollar values derived.
There are no cases on record of human fatalities resulting from the proper use of agricultural chemicals. Human error remains the most frustrating factor to be overcome in making chemicals thoroughly safe to manufacture, distribute and use. Public enlightenment, sensible legislation and government vigilance play vital roles in safeguarding the public health. An additional force for safety is the industry's regard for its own good name. I note in the report that the committee found that, generally speaking, government and industry are well aware of the potential dangers from pesticides, but the public does need education in these fields. More should be done in this regard. Directions and precautions on containers are of little use if they are not read by the purchaser.
The recommendations to the federal government for the formation of a committee on pesticides with representatives from agriculture, national health and welfare, fisheries, forestry, northern affairs and national research council should be acted upon. The recommendation that the pest control act be amended to prevent the importation of pesticides not registered under the act from a country outside of Canada would seem neces-
Interim Supply
sary. I should hope this would not prevent importations for purposes of experimental research by government or industrial agencies.
Two recommendations made by the committee to the senior government are, I think most important. Enforcement of federal regulations should be strict and followed by prosecutions where warranted. The other recommendation was that the committee on pesticides should study the requirements for staff, equipment and facilities of the federal government departments in relation to their duties connected with pesticides. I am pleased to note that the Department of National Health and Welfare has already taken positive steps toward improving their staff and facilities in order to meet this need.
The committee's suggestion that consideration be given to the licensing of commercial sprayers of pesticides, based on proper training and expert supervision, would seem to be a desirable direction in which to work. The committee has recognized that this subject is under both federal and provincial jurisdiction, and recommends the study of mutual interest areas in an effort to improve the present relationships, with the aim of providing consumer safety in foods and cooperation and respect of the producer.
As the means of food production become increasingly complex, interdependent and effective, the possibility of overlapping and contradictory legislation between levels of government arises, with the confusion and inefficiency such a situation inevitably brings with it. It becomes increasingly Important, therefore, that mutual interest areas be dealt with in a spirit of full co-operation and consideration.
The committee has noted the need for setting standards and procedures for poison control centres. I do not think this can be too strongly emphasized. I believe that at the present time we have one such centre at the Toronto Sick Children's hospital. I have mentioned only a few of the matters that I believe to be significant in the committee's report, and this house is indebted to the members of the committee for the work they have done.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate also the opportunity of speaking for a few minutes on the physical fitness and amateur sports program brought forward by the previous government and continued by the present government. In my maiden speech on January 20, 1959 in this House of Commons I was privileged to be one of the first to support the advisability of government financial assistance for amateur sports. It is gratifying to note

Interim Supply
that so much has been accomplished in this endeavour respecting athletic development, where government assistance is so important to the success of such a program.
The Department of National Health and Welfare, along with the national advisory council made up of outstanding sportsmen, have done yeomen work up to the present time. With such continued support Canada should be one of the leading countries in the world in amateur sports. We well recognize that millions of dollars are spent each year in this country on cultural development. I am totally in accord with this, as any fair minded sportsman would be. I feel also, however, that we should spend a similar amount on the physical and athletic development of our young Canadians.
We should consider the good will that competition fosters for Canada; the easing of international tension through international sport; the raising of the prestige of the country through participation, and the example the sportsmen on these teams set for our youth. So far Canada has not achieved the place in international competition which the potential we have warrants. However, with proper assistance that goal is attainable. Although we Canadians have become quite smug about our material attainments, our high standard of living, we trail far behind other countries in the provision of facilities for our sportsmen.
Russia, of course, is the example which first comes to mind of a country that is leaps and bounds ahead of us. Through a concentrated government crash program, Russia has been dotted with sports palaces, swimming pools and local gymnastic training programs. You might say they are as far ahead of us in their program as their runners were in the summer Olympics at Rome or as their hockey players were in the winter games.
During my remarks on this subject in September, 1961 I suggested that our three realms of activity could be, first, the provision of sports facilities, adequate playing fields, stadia, swimming pools, gymnasiums, tennis courts and other training and competitive areas. These facilities would mean physical fitness for our youth. Second, I suggested the provision of competent coaches who would be invaluable to our youth; and third, direct financial aid to national teams representing Canada in international events.
Grants have been made available by both the previous and present governments through the Royal Canadian Legion and other athletic

groups, which have been of great assistance in securing the world's greatest coaches, such as Mr. Dyson of England, who up to the present time has made an outstanding contribution to training centres such as Guelph and other places across Canada. Last year I had the privilege of being at Guelph and watching this man in action. You would almost think he was a human dynamo. He knows his business and does a wonderful job through our Legion; and if we can keep him here for 10 or 15 years I am sure Canada will rank among the best countries in the world in athletics.
In his recent report to the Royal Canadian Legion Mr. Dyson suggested that we give more attention to the provision of sports facilities. I agree with him, as such facilities all over Canada would give every boy and girl interested in such a program the opportunity of participating in it.
We know that direct financial aid has been extended to national teams representing Canada in international events. That is a step in the right direction. May I suggest that grants be made available to communities which agree to build stadia, playing fields and pools which conform to recognized standards and to any other standards Canada may see fit to impose. Because we are far behind such grants would have to be substantial so that perhaps 20 communities across the land could get modern facilities each year. These, naturally, should be strategicaly located throughout Canada to give the best possible service at the start, and the network could be increased in future years. Of course, Mr. Chairman, this money should not go to communities which do not show some civic support and interest. The government might provide 50 per cent of the cost of any approved scheme. The rest could be raised by the community concerned.
I am pleased to see that in the choice of new coaches the best have been secured, and when not out on the hustings in this capacity these coaches might plan Canada's future progress in their particular lines, developing visual aids with special films, giving talks and writing manuals on sports. These are my suggestions for a sports organization that I believe will put Canada in its rightful place in world sports activities in a few years. In so doing it will develop generation after generation of young Canadians with healthy bodies, healthy minds, and a true understanding of sportsmanship, fellowship and friendship. The problem of juvenile delinquency has become so widespread that it

constitutes a pretty serious indictment of the society in which we live. The fact that this problem is caused only by a small minority of the youth does not excuse it or minimize its importance.
For some years we have had many sports minded citizens who have made fine contributions to amateur sports, perhaps in some cases unknown to Mr. John Public. I refer to such men as Major Connie Smythe, M.C., of Toronto. Some army officers credit this man with the high place hockey holds in the army sports program. He made the army hockey conscious when he organized it during the second world war. The sports program for Canadian servicemen and their dependants has been steadily broadened in the ten years Canada has been contributing ground forces directly to NATO. Mr. Len Taylor of Kitchener, one of Ontario's leading sports writers, who has been on many visits to Europe with our competing teams, had this to say:
-and some of the most interested people in the projected national sports and recreation council for Canada live in Europe.
Mr. Jim Daly, the new national track chairman for the amateur athletic union and former half mile champion, is promoting a program for more year round competition on the local level, leading to interprovincial competition and winding up with a national final. Many men in different walks of life are giving their time for the benefit of our youth, so it is up to us in this chamber to do our best to help them. It might be interesting to note that quite a number of members of parliament also have contributed greatly in an athletic way to our young Canadians.
My connection with wholesome sport for over 40 years, my overseas service, my church activities, my duties as member of parliament, and other experiences in this old world of ours have given me much food for thought, and I sincerely believe that the great assets of life, especially concerning our younger folk, could be Christian training, education, and wholesome recreation. Give me boys and girls who will combine these three and I am sure we will never have to worry about juvenile delinquency. Like all proud parents we expect a lot of our youth, and we must do so if our young country is to fulfil its ambitions; but we must not forget that they will only be able to shoulder their responsibilities in a manner consistent with the teachings and the example which they will have received from us.
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Today we are fortunate to have many outstanding organizations that are willing to assist the national advisory council on amateur sport, but one thing that has always puzzled me is that many parents are not interested in the activities of their children. We know that in most cases the parents supply the money to carry on such efforts, but that is only the materialistic side of things. What about the personal relationship with their boy or girl? Watching that boy participate in some worth-while sport is part of the parents' duty of bringing him up right, part of a well rounded family life, part of showing the boy that they are really interested in what he is doing. If they do not take this personal interest in him now while he is young enough to take part in such competition, how will they be able to explain their apparent sudden interest when he is older, old enough to start them worrying and questioning about his former undesirable associations, and old enough to frequent undesirable places?
As I mentioned before, Mr. Chairman, in taking part in Canada's national pastimes and activities these young folk are developing physical and mental gifts, which no doubt will assist them to participate in world affairs as our citizens of tomorrow. With such high ideals, as sound thinking Canadians, and with God's help, they will always be fine citizens of our country and will eventually be great leaders in church, government, industry, labour, agriculture, amateur sports and physical fitness and other worth-while vocations.
I hope the Minister of National Health and Welfare, her department, and the members of the national advisory council will do everything possible to bring about further success in this program. In closing, Mr. Chairman, may I quote the words of Kipling so often heard during the first great war:
It ain't the individual, nor the army as a whole, But the everlastin' teamwork of every bloomin' soul.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of privilege, and I am inspired to do so because of my regard for the sufferings of the lady secretaries in this building. The temperature is now 95 degrees, the humidity is 98; there is no air conditioning in the offices of this building and the secretaries are suffering extreme discomfort.
I would urge that consideration be given by the authorities to their being allowed to leave as soon as possible today, with the consent of their members, and I trust in this

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appeal I will receive the support of the Minister of National Health and Welfare, who I see in her place, and other lady members of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mrs. Jones:: It is an honour and a privilege to make what is traditionally known in this place as a maiden speech. I would like to speak on a subject which is, I believe, both important and timely.
One of the great problems facing the Canadian people and the Canadian government today is the problem of the mentally ill, the people whose resources are lost to themselves and to the country. I am not going to delve far back into the dark regions of the past to describe the snake pit existence to which these people were often condemned; suffice it to say that in this field there has been more ignorance, more neglect, and more outright rejection of the sick person than in any other field of human illness.
In the first part of this century there was an advance made in the understanding of the nature and incidence of mental illness. The casualty experiences of personnel during world war I revealed in a convincing manner that everyone has a breaking point in response to stress. This realization was the birth of our modern scientific physiological approach; the beginning of a new era for those whose human resources lay paralysed in the grip of their anxieties.
But it was only a beginning, for progress was slow. Both medical and lay-people were concerned with the separation of the sane from the insane, with the segregation of those who deviated in a disturbing manner from socially accepted types of behaviour. This was rationalized on the grounds of protection for the so-called normal element of society. People generally were unenlightened, afraid of what they saw. They felt relieved when a disturbed relative or friend was put away in a mental hospital.
Overcrowding in mental hospitals was increased by the addition of emotionally crippled veterans, those who were suffering from wounds of the mind and the spirit. There was inadequate staff to provide for their treatment and care.
In post-war years, individuals came forward who made history in their contribution to the organization and development of psychiatric care in Canada. One of these, Dr. Clarence Hincks, conducted surveys of mental hospitals and made recommendations to provincial governments. In 1918 he organ-

ized the national committee of mental hygiene, which was eventually succeeded by the Canadian mental health association.
In Saskatchewan, Dr. MacNeill pioneered in the field of mental health, and the MacNeill clinic in Saskatoon is a tribute to his early work in the province.
From segregation of patients there began to be a discernible shift in emphasis to more humane care. New methods of treatment were introduced. New mental hospitals were built, treatment clinics were established, and medical schools set up departments of psychiatry. By 1939, general hospitals were beginning to develop psychiatric services. The private practice of psychiatry was by now established and recognized as a legitimate specialty.
Another world war on a much wider and more devastating scale demonstrated even more forcibly the vulnerability of the individual to stress. There was a concentration of overseas psychiatric medical teams to meet this emergency in the armed forces. In the process of this experience, there developed a more penetrating breakthrough in the understanding of emotional disturbances, and consequently a better approach to those who were afflicted. There was also some effort made in the prevention of mental illness by attempts to place personnel suitably. This advancing enlightenment began to sift through the general population of the country.
In the post-war years the Canadian mental health association, a voluntary organization, was establishing provincial divisions and local branches. Their activity did much to promote public interest and understanding in the field of mental health, and resulted in a program of information and services which furthered public education and directly assisted in the care and comfort of the sick in mental hospitals. Impetus was given to research by the setting up of the national mental health research fund. The Canadian association for retarded children is another voluntary organization which was organized in Canada after world war II by a group of parents and friends of mentally retarded children. It has divisions in most provinces. It has established and operated excellent programs for the mentally retarded, including classes for those excluded from regular schools-like the John Dolan school in Saskatoon-recreation centres, day care programs and sheltered workshops. Pressure from this association has done much to inspire governments to contribute more to the education and training of retarded children, and counselling services for their parents.

There has been an increasing co-operation between government health authorities, professional groups, the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Canadian Association for Retarded Children and other organizations. Lay groups have shown a developing interest and concern in the mental health field, and are increasingly demonstrating a desire to participate in programs at a community level. We seem to be in a time of change when people are attempting to break down old barriers and are seeking new ways of involvement in social programs.
What is the situation in Canada today for the mentally ill? What are some of the significant trends we can observe in modern day psychiatry, and what are the problems that must be met? There are approximately 75,000 patients in mental institutions in Canada today, or 3.7 beds per thousand population, at a cost of less than $5 per bed per day. In general hospitals there are some 90,000 patients receiving treatment for physical ailments, or 5.5 beds per thousand population at a cost of over $20 per bed per day. The present total cost of general hospital beds in Canada comes to over $800 million a year, whereas the total cost of beds for mental patients runs at approximately $130 million. It must be said that there is a greater increase in cost of operation for general hospitals. Over a five year period operating costs of hospitals have increased around 85 per cent but the operating costs of mental hospitals have increased by less than 25 per cent. Also about
10,000	mental patients are admitted to hospitals acutely ill, and most of the beds in general hospitals are acute beds, which are more expensive; but over and above this there is a wide discrepancy in the quality of the facilities and care provided for the two groups of patients. All provinces spend more than three times as much per day for each general hospital as they do for mental hospitals. Yet it has been conclusively demonstrated that improved facilities, attractive surroundings and competent professional care make for more effective treatment. They are an important part of the psychiatric treatment program.
Our mentally sick people should not be treated as second class citizens. Why should they be segregated to lower class institutions? Mr. Chairman, this whole question of treatment of the mentally ill is primarily a segregation problem, and it is a segregation problem that can involve anyone-because mental illness knows no colour, class or creed. It can come to any one of us, and when it
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does the gate closes and segregation becomes a cruel fact. People who suffer from acute mental and physical diseases are all very sick people and should be treated in the same hospitals. The distinction now made between the two types of illness is a false one and discriminates unfairly against those suffering from acute mental disorders.
There are at the present time only 2,000 beds set aside in over 50 of our Canadian general hospitals for the treatment of mentally disturbed people. More than 15,000 people are admitted to these wards annually. This represents more than half the number admitted per year to all mental hospitals in Canada. There is a faster turnover. Patients admitted to these wards are generally treated by physicians who are specializing in psychiatry, but in some instances the directors of these units do invite general practitioners to admit and treat their own patients under supervision. This has worked out well in the University Hospital at Saskatoon, where Dr. D. G. McKerracher is professor and head of the department of psychiatry at the University of Saskatchewan. He has given warm encouragement to general practitioners to gain in-service training in psychiatry by participation in this program. But aside from the 2,000 psychiatry beds in a general hospital set-up, there are not adequate facilities now for the treatment of people with acute mental disorders. We need to provide in a general hospital enough beds to treat these people. Here is a chance for government to face up to the reality of what is needed for the acutely ill psychiatric patient. First priority should go to the treatment of the very sick, and they should not be segregated from other patients. There should be at least .5 beds per thousand population, or 10,000 beds in general hospitals as a minimum in Canada for these patients. This figure could well run to 12,000.
What are the advantages of the treatment of acute mental disorders in a general hospital? There is a closer relationship of the psychiatrist with other medical people, with other doctors in the hospital. There is better integration of psychiatry and general medicine, more ready acceptance of psychiatric treatment by people outside the hospital who are learning to regard it as another form of medical treatment, and a faster return of the patient to the community. On this kind of ward there is a closer relationship with general practitioners and with other community personnel such as clergy, teachers, local pub-

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lie health people, V.O.N. nurses, etc., including family and friends who may well benefit from their visits to the ward and develop a much better approach to the patient.
The Canadian psychiatric association has recommended that all hospitals of more than 200 beds should develop psychiatric wards as soon as possible. Others feel that any hospital over 100 beds should have a psychiatric unit. The Hall commission report advocates this figure. When we have dealt with the hospital wards for the acute patients and provided them with 10,000 to 12,000 general hospital beds, this leaves around 65,000 patients in Canadian mental institutions. Most of these should not be there. However at this point we can eliminate about 15,000 mentally defective people. This is a most important problem, which requires special consideration and which I do not propose to develop here. We are then left with some 50,000 patients in Canadian mental institutions. These are the chronically ill and the aged. Of these, 10,000 to 12,000-that is .6 per thousand population-are so sick they cannot be cared for except by good nurses and good doctors in attendance. And these people are in mental hospitals. They are the old people with poor circulatory systems, who have confused minds and broken down old brains. They cannot be at home; they cannot stay in boarding homes or nursing homes. These people belong in the chronic care wings of general hospitals, just as much as patients who have chronic heart and arthritic conditions. They need constant professional care with internists and psychiatrists available for ready consultation.
The rest of the aged and those who are chronically ill should be in the community, not in mental hospitals. Partly as a result of a lower death rate, there is an increase in the number of old people now in mental hospitals. Old people with no place to go could be in a home for the aged. Most modem housing does not lend itself to their care, although some families have met this problem by building self-contained additions to their dwellings so that elderly relatives can have some degree of independence while also receiving the attention and care they require. These people should be in the community, but you cannot turn thousands of people out of mental hospitals without providing for their supervision and care at the community level. We need in Canada more public health nurses and social workers available to go around and help people when they need help. Governments should provide a cadre of trained people to

do follow-up work; first, to help rehabilitate acute patients after their discharge from hospital, and second to help keep the chronically ill and the aged out of hospital and in the community. The Hall commission report makes strong recommendations in this regard.
If in Canada we were recruiting an adequate number of people to train for this war on the poverty of our human resources, we could use postgraduate students in psychiatry and the social sciences to assist in the care of these people and at the same time relate this experience to research projects. This would enable us to learn much more about the potentialities of the aged and the chronically ill. But at the present time there are not enough residents and postgraduate students, and there is not the set-up in the community to absorb and train these people. If the government could do something to increase the prestige of personnel trained in the care of the mentally ill, more would enter this field. We need a declaration of interest by government in this group of mental health personnel-psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses and social workers. The government should give leadership in pointing up the need for such trained people at the community level. But there have to be incentives for training.
More psychiatrists are needed. There are only 600 qualified psychiatrists in Canada, about one for every 30,000 population. Only about half of these are conducting a private practice. The remainder are in government service and receive a lower income than their colleagues. Psychiatrists cannot look after all the mentally ill people, or even a reasonable number of them. Nor will they ever be able to do so. They cannot at present even provide adequate consultation services for general practitioners and other specialists, let alone provide individual care on a cradle to the grave basis.
It seems logical that most psychiatrists should function largely in a consultative capacity. The number of qualified psychiatrists in Canada needs to be doubled, and those who work for government should receive salaries that compare with the incomes of their medical colleagues. They should be available to help social agencies, law enforcement agencies, and other people who are dealing with the confused, the anxious and the depressed. This contact also gives an opportunity for teaching which is very much needed.
General practitioners in Canada see thousands and thousands of people suffering from mental disorders, and they will continue to see thousands and thousands of these people.

And they should be encouraged to do so. They are treating at present over 90 per cent of the people with psychiatric complaints. In most cases they are not prepared, not helped, and not adequately paid for it. They do not receive recognition for the great service they perform. The general practitioner sees an average of five of these patients per day. Since there are some 15,000 practising doctors in Canada, this means that 75,000 patients with psychiatric problems are seen each day in doctors' offices across the country. Both medical students and general practitioners need more psychiatric training than they now receive. More than half of those graduating from medical schools will be family doctors, and will be inadequately prepared to give psychiatric treatment; and yet they are the ones who will take on by far the greatest load of out-patient psychiatric care. The family doctor knows the patient's family. He knows the social and economic background, and he enjoys the patient's confidence. He does a good job, but he needs help. He should be able to get psychiatric consultation when he needs it, and the social services of the community should be readily available to help him with his patient problems.
Almost every mentally sick person who has had hospital treatment needs some form of rehabilitation, some kind of help in his effort to fit once more into the community. But he does not get the kind of consideration a physically handicapped patient receives. Once more he is segregated, stigmatized, and too little interest is taken by all concerned in his chances for future training and employment. He is in fact often rejected.
Britain is far ahead of us in this field of rehabilitation of the mentally ill. There, many mental hospitals have made arrangements with commercial firms who employ former patients in large numbers. In Canada most of the industrial therapy within a mental hospital is in the form of unpaid work related to hospital maintenance. This can help a patient but it provides very little incentive. A few patients are admitted to sheltered workshops but only on a temporary basis. There are no sheltered workshops in Canada that provide permanent employment to people with chronic mental handicaps, people who may never work on a competitive basis. These people are now on municipal relief and lead a life of idleness, discouragement and deterioration. Their potentialities are wasted, not only to themselves but to the community.
Mentally handicapped people need encouragement and incentives to work, and per-
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manent sheltered employment set up either by state or private organizations could provide an answer to their dilemma. Those who remain at a low level of work performance could continue to receive some municipal social assistance, but undoubtedly some would benefit from the therapeutic effect of paid work geared to their ability to perform, and might very well become increasingly productive. These are our human resources that need to be reclaimed and developed for the good of the individual concerned and for all of us.
The Glenside hospital in Bristol has an active industrial program which began in 1958, and was initiated by Dr. Donald Early, a consultant psychiatrist. By 1962 there were 500 chronically ill and hopeless patients involved in it. Of these 500 working patients, 400 became paid workers inside the hospital for commercial firms, and 100 patients were working for pay outside the hospital. A company in Bristol called the industrial therapy organization opened up business in a former schoolhouse and also operated a nearby car wash. The 100 patients began to work here, some of them sleeping at the hospital and some sleeping out, but all working a 40-hour week. The Bristol council made plans to build hostels for those who were able to live outside the hospital.
After a four year period of this industrial therapy program, 136 of these chroncially ill and hopeless patients were discharged from the hospital and were on their own, most of them employed full time. Dr. Early considers this kind of therapy more beneficial than pills. Only the very old who are physically ill and are unable to work do not take part in the programs. This type of approach is certainly providing momentum in the movement that is emptying mental hospital beds. It is the plan of the British government to reduce their mental hospital population from
140,000	to 85,000 by 1975.
What can be done in Canada to mobilize the human resources we have here, both inside and outside mental hospitals? In this age of automation and rapid technological advance, many of these chroncially ill people might very well receive special training at our technical institutions. We do not know how many might qualify for these courses, or what kind of sheltered workshop situations could be adapted to their capacities. But as in the Bristol experiment, many might improve to the point of self-support and be able to transfer to more competitive situations. Only experimental projects will let us know

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what can be accomplished. Should not the government sponsor and support such experimental projects?
It would take at least 15 to 20 years to empty our mental hospital beds, to make the transition to a concentration of total care for the mentally ill in the community, considering treatment of the acutely ill in general hospitals and the care of the aged and chronically ill within the community. This will require greatly increased numbers of trained personnel and it will cost money. There will also need to be sizeable increases in welfare accommodation when mental hospitals go out of the business of providing board and room and custodial care for elderly people. But emphasis would shift from the provision of large, obsolete buildings that allow for the accumulation of the old and chronically ill to the training of people who would be responsible for the continued supervision and care of these discharged patients at the community level. It would bring these chronically ill patients out to the light of day and give them hope. In Canada more than 12,000 patients have been in mental hospitals for 25 years.
Some $130 million a year is now being spent in operating expenses for the care of approximately 75,000 mentally ill patients in Canada. The new community oriented program I have discussed is estimated to cost around $180 million a year and should provide a much better and more effective program. Capital costs would involve the gradual replacement of obsolete mental hospitals with beds in community hospitals. Less than half the number of hospital beds will be needed and, as has already been demonstrated in the 2,000 general hospital psychiatric beds we now have, there will be a faster turnover of patients.
When increased costs are being considered it should be noted that several unofficial estimates of the loss of productivity due to mental illness in Canada have placed that cost at nearly $300 million per year. Most of the funds needed should come from federal and provincial sources. The extra personnel in the community could be administered by the local authorities. Funds should be set up to study and evaluate experimental programs and compare them with already established programs.
The recently published Hall commission report gives strong endorsation to a new community centred mental health treatment program and makes specific recommendations for a crash program to accelerate this implementation.
I have described some aspects of the development, the trends, some of the problems

to be met, and recommendations relating to the treatment of the mentally ill in Canada. There is much that can be learned if governments will sponsor the adoption of new and experimental programs in an effort to investigate and reclaim the most valuable of all our resources, the resources that are within people.


Mr. Rheaume:: Mr. Chairman, I must congratulate the hon. member for Saskatoon immediately on one of the most thoughtful speeches that have been heard in the house in a long time. I want to assure her that to the ragged and tattered fighters of the second session of the twenty sixth parliament a speech like this comes at a good time, not only in terms of giving us a breath of fresh air but as an example that we perhaps might emulate when we are not scrapping.
It is in this happy mood that I want to discuss for a few moments some of the things that have happened in the Department of National Health and Welfare. I do so at this time because, as the minister well knows, this is the first opportunity that any member has had to take a look at the spending in this department. Either because the minister is unwilling or unable to convince her colleagues, her main estimates have not been presented to the house for discussion, and I want to take this opportunity to say a few things that cannot be said at any other time.
I know that already the press has started to accuse the opposition of conducting a filibuster merely because we do not automatically grant to the federal government over $700 million in spending authority. In today's Ottawa Citizen there is a headline, "Tory Filibuster Starts", obviously written by the Prime Minister's nephew. I for one am quite prepared to take some time to have a look at how this $700 million is going to be used by the government. I am not ashamed to hold up this matter for a while in order to say a few things that are of importance not only to the people of my constituency but to all the people of Canada. Surely the hon. lady must be relieved when she looks back and thinks what might have happened if the house had gone right ahead with the first Canada pension plan legislation and had approved that first wretched and fumbling attempt by the government to provide some sort of intelligent social security measure. I do not want to say any more about that because I do not want to irritate the hon. lady. In fact, I want to congratulate her, and I do so seriously because she is the first minister to allow the Yukon and the Northwest Territories to participate in federal-provincial

conferences by means of direct representation. This may seem a minor point to many people but in fact it is a tremendous step forward. The hon. member for Yukon and I have asked the government some 30 times in the twenty sixth parliament to permit this. The hon. lady made an announcement to that effect the other day and I want to tell her sincerely that by that one act she has certainly endeared herself to me.
The hon. lady and I have had our little disagreements in the past and we undoubtedly will have more in the future. In fact, we may have more later this afternoon. But I want her to know that I am a big enough man to embrace her principles and her ideas wholeheartedly with regard to the matter of allowing the people of the north to be represented at federal-provincial conferences. I do not think the hon. member for Yukon and I will really take the next step, but I suppose we could insist that in future all such conferences be called federal-provincial-territorial conferences. I do not think we will do that.
The other day the hon. member for Port Arthur said that members of parliament when they get up to speak never suggest ways of saving money to the government, but instead ask for more and more for their own constituencies. While I have been guilty of this in the past, today I want to suggest to the minister one place where she can save $84 million of the taxpayers' money. I am going to tell her how and I want her to do this. I want her to scrap the building of the new Charles Camsell hospital in Edmonton, Alberta, which will cost the taxpayers some $84 million. I should like to give the history of this matter and I can do so very quickly.
The Charles Camsell hospital was never a hospital in the first place. It was built for other purposes and it was gradually expanded and extended, much in the way that a shack sometimes becomes a house in the more northerly parts of Canada merely by additions being made to it. This hospital has been used to treat Eskimo and Indian people. They are flown from northern Alberta and from the Yukon and Northwest Territories to the hospital in Edmonton for treatment.
The officials in the minister's department wanted a new building, and they wanted a new one for good reason. The existing Charles Camsell building is old and it is a firetrap, as I mentioned earlier. The hon. member for Athabasca happens to know it well. This building was never intended for a hospital in the first place. It is a disgrace that the
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government of Canada should be treating people in a building such as this.
However this does not mean you have to build a new one. As so often happens in government, when something is not good enough the departmental officials do not say, "Well, do we need it at all?" They say, "Let us build a bigger and better one." At any rate, the Glassco commission took a very careful look at this building and the need for it. They came up with some recommendations to which I should like to refer. They recommend that the minister or the government do not proceed with the building of this hospital. They say it is unnecessary and would preserve the kind of racial segregation of which no Canadian citizen can be proud.
The Glassco commission recommendations certainly were received by the previous administration. I know from talks I had at that time with the then minister of national health and welfare, and since then, that the administration of that day decided they would not go ahead with this plan but would review it very carefully before spending this amount of money. The Glassco commission found, first of all, that there were sufficient empty t.b. beds in the province of Alberta to accommodate any Indian or Eskimo people that might be admitted in the forthcoming year. This is very significant because, as hon. members may know, the treatment of Indian and Eskimo peoples has been done in hospitals separated from the rest of the treatment hospitals in the province, ostensibly because the Eskimo and Indian people are shy; that they prefer to be in hospitals with other Eskimo and Indian people. Well, this has never been my experience, Mr. Chairman, during my years of work with the Eskimo and Indian people. It may have been a valid statement at some point. Suffice to say it certainly is not valid any longer.
Even if it were valid, even if they were shy or reluctant to go into hospitals with whites-if we can use that word, and I do not like it-then surely the solution to the problem is to change the milieu in which they would find themselves, change the attitude of the white administrators and set things up in the hospital so the people who come in there who happen to have other than white skin and these funny round eyes are not made to feel uncomfortable. This would be better than spending $8.5 million. The Glassco commission suggested that the department should get out of this kind of hospital immediately. I want to quote from the commission report, page 200, volume 3:

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Since she won't get up I will guess. Was it because the officials in her department, the whites in Alberta, will not allow Indians and Eskimos to be treated in ordinary hospitals?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Perhaps the hon. member will realize that so long as he is standing on his feet no one else is permitted to stand and address the committee? On a point of personal privilege I take exception to the fact that he spoke rhetorically and now suggests I am not getting up to reply.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: This fascinates me. It never prevented the hon. lady getting up before. If she is prepared to give us this statement as to why this is being done-I say to her again if she will by some kind of sign language indicate to me that she can explain this, then I will sit down. This is not rhetorical.


Mr. Mcllrailh:: Follow the rules.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: The minister asks me to follow the rules. I have a suspicion that he, with his axe on this expense business, is the one to blame for many of the things going on in my country.


George James McIlraith: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member does not wish to mislead the committee and people outside this chamber who will read Hansard. He has done something here that I should explain for the benefit of people who will read Hansard, so that they will know what he is up to. He has tried to create the impression that he was giving the Minister of National Health and Welfare an opportunity to answer a rhetorical question he put when, by his own act, he chose to prevent her from answering the question he was putting on the record. Until he conducts himself in accordance with the rules of this chamber with respect to having anyone speak in committee of the whole, there is only one conclusion which can be drawn from his actions, and it is not one favourable to the hon. member. I will not develop that point further.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: I do not intend to take a lecture from the hon. gentleman raised on a phony point of order. I am prepared to defend my conduct against him or anyone else, and may I say I hope members on the treasury benches, when they get up to speak, will take advantage of the opportunity and say something. Yesterday we asked the Minister of Labour what he was doing about the mollycoddling of Hal Banks. But did we get any information? No. He replied, but he told us nothing. I say this to the President of the Privy Council: Don't use these phony

points of order to lecture a young fellow like me who is trying to make a case on behalf of his people. The hon. gentleman spoke about reading Hansard. Well, if he will read Hansard he will find I have made a very logical case, pointing out how this government can save $8J million. I want to know whether this decision was taken because of pressure brought to bear by the people who operate this sanatorium, which has 250 empty beds but will admit white people only. Is this why we now have to build a new hospital to treat Eskimos and Indians? Or did the Liberal government in Alberta come to the minister and say: It would be a great thing for all of us if that $8J million could be spent here in advance of another election which is coming up; it would show Alberta that even though we do not have too many seats out here, we have not been forgotten. Is this why it was done? I ask these questions because the decision was taken in the face of recommendations which were nonpartisan in nature, knowing it could only damage prospects of the people who live in my part of the country.


Mr. Moreau:: Would the hon. member permit a question? He indicated that this is a recommendation of the Department of National Health and Welfare. I wonder whether he is suggesting that this recommendation was a partisan one.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: I would never accuse the hon. lady of partisanship. No. The matter had been under review by the previous administration, and the thing was cancelled. The Glassco commission had recommended that it be cancelled. Then, lo and behold, after a visit by the hon. lady, the announcement was made that the hospital was going to be built. The hon. member for York-Scarborough can draw any conclusion he likes as to what went on.
There is another question I want to ask. Do we have to build this hospital because the medical officers and others who now work in the Camsell hospital do not want to move north, though if they were to move to the end of the steel it would mean the saving of many thousands of dollars in transportation costs alone? Are these people afraid to go north? Who is insisting that this hospital be built in Edmonton? I want to suggest that whatever reasons there may have been for this kind of conduct in the past, they are no longer valid. If we spend this $8i million in the way proposed, right after our Prime Minister has been lecturing Southern Rhodesia on how to handle race problems, we

shall have a black mark against his twenty sixth parliament which will go a lot deeper than any kind of inability to do work. There is no justification for this decision, no matter how you look at it, whether from the point of view of race or colour or from the point of view of economics, and I am amazed that the President of the Privy Council should have leaped to his feet in the way he did- he, the wielder of the great axe against spending-in order to defend the minister on a question of this kind.


The Deputy Chairman:: I must advise the hon. member that the time allotted to him has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry to digress a bit from such an interesting subject as national health and welfare, but I do feel that, after what the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams) said yesterday in this house, while making charges concerning the way our government treated Mr. Banks, I would be remiss, in my capacity as Minister of Justice, if I did not rise, not only to refute those charges, but also to indicate quite clearly just how much the comments made by the hon. member for Bow River are unfounded.
I regret to speak today in his absence, but I have an excuse for so doing inasmuch as he himself chose to make those remarks about the actions of the Department of Justice while I was detained in my office. It so happened then that, when he spoke, I was not present. Therefore, although he is not here today, I am duty bound to give the house the full particulars it was then entitled to have.
The hon. member, and up to a certain point also the right hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker), charged the government with having, when proceedings were taken against Mr. Hal Banks, pampered him -for that is the word he used, "pampered"- with having treated him in a special way which, it was even sometimes implied, was against the law.
Mr. Chairman, when the present government had to carry out its duty following the tabling of the Norris report, it assumed its full responsibilities under the circumstances, and to the best of its knowledge and, above all, in keeping with the opportunities afforded by those circumstances, it discharged those responsibilities to the best of its ability.
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When we came into power, we inherited a situation already existing long before 1962, when the Norris commission was established, a situation which the previous administration knew very well, since as early as 1958 and 1959, it was aware of the activities of Banks and of the problems they could entail. But all the same, the previous government allowed this situation to prevail and to deteriorate to such an extent that during 1962, the conditions on the St. Lawrence seaway and the great lakes became unbearable and that even an actual congestion of maritime traffic had to be corrected.
About Mr. Banks and the attitude of the then government, I must point out that being in possession, of course, as early as 1958, of information that should have been looked into more fully, the government did not see fit at the time to conduct an investigation which would have made it easier to bring Banks before the court than in 1963 and 1964, since those events had just occurred. It would have been easier to check the facts and to have the proper witnesses appear instead of having to overcome very serious difficulties, as we had to do, because we managed to perform the seemingly impossible task of bringing Banks before the court five or six years after the offences were committed, for which it had not been deemed advisable to prosecute him.
If we consider what happened in 1962-and I only mention it because of the accusation of delay in carrying out a warrant obtained by my predecessor Mr. Lionel Chevrier, following the Norris report-it is noted that if at that time, Banks had been prosecuted, the circumstances would have been much different from those we had to face.
Finally, in the summer of 1962, an intolerable situation existed on the great lakes; in 1963, as soon as the Norris report was published, as soon as the government could do something, legal action was taken and complaints were lodged after the government had retained the best Toronto and Montreal lawyers. So, this government is the first to do something about Mr. Banks; this government is the first to assume its responsibilities and prosecute Mr. Banks with the results we know: decisions were taken.
I cannot go beyond that, because an appeal has now been lodged. But I thought I ought to mention that fact because of the accusation which has been made. If proceedings have been delayed at a given moment, and this was admitted at the time, it was to allow the

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trustees to start their "operations" and restore peace on the seaway.
I thought I ought to mention that accusation and it is the only reason why, as I said, I did so here, for I do not want to discuss fully a matter which is sub judice. The only reason why I intervened is because of the accusation made that, after having instituted legal proceedings, we had played into the hands of Mr. Banks by delaying somewhat the serving of the warrant of arrest which brought him before the court.
Constant attempts were made, through the hon. member for Bow River to create the impression that we had acted in such a way as to treat Mr. Banks as a spoiled child and, I repeat, as to cajole him. It was said for instance that at the time of his appeal against the sentence passed on him, Mr. Banks enjoyed discrimination because the government did not see fit to include in the bond a provision to prevent him from leaving the territorial limits of Canada.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I think it is essential to note that the crown, on the occasion of the appeal made by Banks and of the request for bail he made before the chief justice of the court of appeal of the province of Quebec, the crown objected that no bail should be granted in the case of Mr. Hal Banks.
I must quote, to have them put on the record, excerpts from the sentence passed on May 8, 1964, by the hon. chief justice of the court of appeal, Mr. Justice Lucien Tremblay whom, I am quite proud to proclaim loudly in this house, is one of the most experienced jurists within our superior courts, one of those who practice their profession with the utmost objectivity and the utmost understanding.
In the first paragraph of the sentence, here is what could be found:
The crown is opposed to any bail. In addition, it holds that, should I feel I have to grant the request, I should ask for a bond of $50,000.
I will stop a moment and ask those who accuse the government of having pampered Mr. Banks when proceedings were instituted against him, this question: Is asking the court to refuse someone bail equivalent to granting him preferential treatment? Is it granting him preferential treatment to say: If, in the administration of justice, the president of the court of appeal feels that bail can be granted, that bail should be set at $50,000 or more?
I say it is quite the opposite of what the hon. member of Bow River is accusing us of doing.

Further on, the judge gives the reasons why, in his opinion, he is justified first in granting bail and second in setting it at $25,000; he sets that amount at $25,000 and
says:
If I refuse to set him free temporarily and his appeal is granted, he will have suffered a few months' imprisonment that would be hard to justify. If I grant his request and his appeal is rejected, the only result will be to postpone by a few months the beginning of his sentence (section 624, Criminal Code).
And later he says this:
It is important however to set bail high enough to make as sure as it is humanly possible that he will not try to evade justice. I feel that an amount of $25,000 will do it.
The chief justice of the appeal court then summarized the whole case. He stressed the purpose of the bail: to ensure that the person against whom there is an appeal will be sufficiently interested by the said bail to come forward for the hearing of the appeal, failing which his $25,000 will be forfeited or confiscated.
In my opinion, this is sufficient guarantee that Mr. Banks will be in court when the appeal is heard on September 14, 1964. Mr. Banks will surrender to justice at that time.
According to some people, the crown failed to use the proper bail form which would have precluded Mr. Banks from leaving the country. The house should know that the crown used the proper form, the one which is prescribed in the Criminal Code of Canada. Mr. Chairman, please refer to form 28 which, according to the circumstances, may be used in the case of a person who has been com-mited for trial or where the accused has appealed the sentence. It will be noted that paragraph (g) provides exactly how form 28 should be used in appeal cases.
The hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Wool-liams) referred to the form which provides that "the accused may not leave the country without leave of permission." According to him, this meant that Mr. Banks was prevented from leaving the territorial jurisdiction of Canada.
If we take form (c), which applies only in cases where the accused is not on appeal but sent back to his trial, we see that even in this case, there is no prohibition in the code, to the effect of preventing the accused from leaving, when under bail, the territorial jurisdiction of Canada.
I quote from the form used to that effect:
Now, therefore, the condition of the above written recognizance is that (if the accused appears at that court, or if, having re-elected under part XVI, he appears before the presiding

judge at the time and place fixed for his trial) and takes his trial on the indictment that is found against him and does not depart the said court without leave, the said recognizance is void;-
It is clear that the purpose of this bail is that the accused undertakes to be present when his trial will be called and that as long as the trial will last, he will not get away from the court.
This does not mean that until his trial is called, he is denied the right to leave the country. I merely mean that if we look at the bail form prescribed in the case of a person who is under trial or the form prescribed in the case where a person appeals against a decision which finds him guilty, there is no provision restricting the right of the accused, the appellant, of staying in the country or leaving it.
I have here a true copy of the recognizance bond which contains the judgment to which I referred you a while ago, and we see that it is clear.
I mentioned the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that the provision restricting the right of circulating freely inside as well as outside the territorial limits of Canada would have been taken out of the recognizance bond. Now, we see in the recognizance bond that no provision was eliminated in the text and that it is exactly the same as prescribed by the Criminal Code.
It is important today for the house to know that as far as the recognizance bond is concerned, all the government can be accused of concerning Mr. Banks is that the provisions of the law were respected, and as Minister of Justice I am always delighted and happy when I am accused of respecting the provisions of the law.
Finally, there is the confusion spread by the speech of the hon. member for Bow River -and I regret that the Leader of the Opposition did not point it out-that is, the relation which would exist between the proceedings instituted against Banks before the appeal court and the proceedings under which a warrant has now been issued by the superior court of the province of Quebec.
I must say that the federal government has nothing to do with the proceedings mentioned by the hon. member for Bow River which resulted in the issuance of the warrant under which Banks is now sought out. It is a purely civil procedure taken against Banks by a company named Upper Lakes Shipping Company, because it claimed that Banks neglected or refused to submit to an injunction of the 20220-385J
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superior court of the province of Quebec. As a result of a request made by this company, and by virtue of clause 957 and the following clause, especially clause 971 of the code of civil procedure, which is surely not part of the Criminal Code and does not come under federal jurisdiction, as was claimed last week, the warrant was issued by the superior court and handed over to the sheriff. Clause 971 reads as follows:
Any person against whom an injunction is directed who infringes or refuses to obey it, or any person who, although not named or described therein, knowingly contravenes its commands, is subject to a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, payable to the crown, with or without imprisonment for a period not exceeding sixty days, without prejudice to the right of the party aggrieved to recover damages.
It is obvious that this is a purely civil procedure, on which may be grafted, if so desired, an action for damages initiated by the claimant against the person thus prosecuted.
Under the circumstances, I thought it was my responsibility to establish the required distinction, and to prove that by not attempting to intervene in the execution of the warrant obtained by a strictly civil party, in a strictly civil case, between the Upper Lakes Shipping Company and Hal Banks, the federal government was not remiss in its duty. Quite the contrary, if it had done so, it would have been guilty of interference in the field of civil cases and the administration of justice between civil parties in the province of Quebec.
Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to labour the point, but I think that if we all look objectively at the facts and try to analyse them in the light of justice and with a critical sense prompted by justice, we must come to only one conclusion, that is not only did the government not cajole Banks, but it took all the required recourses and steps in accordance with the prescribed procedure within its jurisdiction.
In addition, I must inform the house that, if necessary, this government will continue to act in the same way concerning Banks or anyone else who must be prosecuted.


Mr. Paul:: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister allow me a question?


Guy Favreau: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Rémi Paul: Mr. Chairman, can the hon. minister tell the house why the federal government assumed the responsibility for lodging complaints against Banks instead of leaving the whole matter, that is lodging

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the complaints as well as carrying out the investigation, to the provincial government or the attorney general who is usually responsible for the enforcement of the criminal code in the province of Quebec?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Chairman, the answer to this question is very simple.
The situation concerned the government and was under its jurisdiction because being connected with the safety of navigation in Canada it was a matter of waterways and water transport.
Moreover, following the tabling of the Norris report, which had been prepared by a commission set up by the former Conservative government, under circumstances which are familiar to my hon. friends, this government simply assumed its responsibility.
In a criminal case, the facts of which were brought to its attention, the federal government retained the services of outside legal counsel, who confirmed the advice of the legal advisers of the Department of Justice. Later on, the federal authorities lodged the required complaints in accord with the attorney general of the province. In so doing, the jurisdiction of the attorney general of the province was fully respected and proceedings were started and carried on jointly with the deputy crown attorney, whose authority is under the direct jurisdiction of the provincial attorney general of Quebec.
I also think that my hon. friend will agree with me that, when there is an injunction, according to articles 957 and following of the code of civil procedure, the jurisdiction with regard to intervention is entirely different.


Mr. Bigg:: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to go into the Banks affair again at this time, except to say that I think the explanation of the Minister of Justice only tends to support what I said last night about Mr. Banks and the whole labour problem. The longer this unfortunate Banks affair goes on, the more the need for a federal labour code is demonstrated.
With regard to the amount of $700 million in interim supply, we certainly will have to go into some of the matters involved very carefully. First of all may I say I support the hon. member for Northwest Territories with regard to the Indian hospital situation in Alberta. I am not going to make any accusations but I do not like to see empire building. I do not mean British empire building. I do not like to see departmental empire building either in the province or in the do-

minion which will interfere with the welfare of our native people. I have about 6,500 of them in my own riding and therefore I think I have the right to speak on their behalf. They live under very primitive conditions, and I am very pleased that the hon. member for Northwest Territories, who has worked with these people, gave us a common sense viewpoint with regard to this whole matter, as he did this afternoon.
When these native people are under hospital care visiting is very important to them. Because they live in the wilds all their lives, perhaps they have something of the same feeling for territory as is found in wild animals. These people are close to the soil. I think it can be demonstrated by hospital charts indicating temperature, pulse rate and nervous condition that they are under continual stress when they are taken away from their native habitat to big cities. There is a very strong and cogent argument for the building of hospitals to look after these people as close to their homes as they can be built. I believe that such hospitals should be decentralized and that we should provide the best facilities we can in the north country where these people live.
The native people of the Northwest Territories and in Athabasca are increasing rapidly in numbers and therefore the need for hospitals will not diminish. Larger hospitals will be required in small, outlying areas. The only argument I can see in favour of taking these people to the city is that they may get better specialized care in the larger University hospital, or veterans hospital, but so far as on-site care is concerned these people can best be taken care of in the areas where they live, where they know the people and are more at home.
I have worked intimately with these people as an R.C.M.P. officer. I was responsible for the investigation of many welfare cases. We saw the worst ones, of course, but when we went into their homes and teepees we also saw a cross section of their needs. I would be the first to be opposed to anything like segregation. I do not suggest that we should segregate these people of the north in any way by building such hospitals. Quite the contrary. However, the provision of such hospitals means that the sick can be visited by their families.
Lest I should be misunderstood to be drawing some distinction between the white people and the native people of our country, may I say I do not think there is any such distinction except as to environment. I have

noticed on many occasions that so far as the sick are concerned there is much more distress among the older people. The older people who are used to the nomadic way of life are the ones who suffer most. When the children are taken away to hospital I believe they adjust much more rapidly. They tend to eat better and are more cheerful because they are better fed and clothed. They take to civilization and civilized surroundings much better. They do not suffer from the same nostalgia.
I suggest to the hon. lady that rather than spending $8i million to build this hospital in the wrong place the same amount of money should be spent to improve local facilities either by the provision of more beds in the Northwest Territories and the outlying districts of my own riding of Athabasca or by spending more money on drugs and services, transportation and communications. This suggestion may seem to be a little out of her field but I am quite sure it is important if you are going to provide these natives with proper treatment when they are sick.
You may be surprised, although you should not be, to know that in a great many cases these native people are not in touch with medical care of any kind. They are out in the woods or in encampments where there are no radio, telephone or telegraph facilities. I would suggest that in some cases it might be more important to run a telephone line to where these people are. Then first aid could be rendered on the spot rather than waiting until they develop pneumonia. There are many cases where children come down with a common cold, and because they are no longer clothed adequately in furs as they used to be they are subject to the danger of contracting tuberculosis or getting pneumonia. Then it is necessary to fly these people to the hospital at Edmonton at great expense.
Whether or not you are going to fly them to Edmonton, once communication is made and you know a native is sick another problem arises involving local transportation. In a great many cases there are no ambulances or snowmobiles located near where these people are living and in some cases the hospitals themselves do not have ambulances or snowmobiles to get to an Indian child or older Indian who needs hospital care.
I think some of this money might be spent for bursaries for social workers to encourage the training of more personnel. I think there should be an educational program among the people in the southern part of Canada to
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explain the need in outlying districts for trained social workers. Problems of this sort are all of a piece. One of the difficulties that the hon. lady will run into, and I think she has encountered it already, is the need for nurses. That naturally leads to the next question. What are we going to do about nurses? Some two or three years ago I brought up the question of what we could do about obtaining more nurses. I did some research in this matter and I suggested that the reason we were thousands of nurses short in Canada was that we were taking a very unrealistic and non-20th century approach to the whole question of nursing.
I communicated with the Canadian nurses' association, and what did I get? No doubt they are well meaning people, but they are living in the mental atmosphere of Florence Nightingale. I received a very irate letter from the president of this association, no doubt a trained nurse with many years of service. She wrote to me and said that if we gave these young nursing students a dollar a day pocket money in order to go to a picture show or buy nylons, we would be putting out the lamp of Florence Nightingale. She said that these girls were looking after serious cases, deadly dangerous cases. I do not need to go into the details, because you can imagine them for yourselves. There would be people with cancer of the bowel and all sorts of diseases. You have a young girl just out of school working under very difficult conditions. This woman wrote to me-I am not going to name her-and said that if we gave this young girl a dollar a day we would be putting out the lamp of Florence Nightingale. I do not believe that this is so at all.
There are many young girls who come in off the farm whose parents are unable to support them, and a dollar a day is not too much to pay them for this work. If there are any young girls entering this course who are so altruistic they believe they should not receive this $1 a day, this miserable $1, then they can donate it to the crippled children's society or the Red Cross. There are many of these young girls who want to go into training as nurses but they are too proud to ask their parents to support them for three years. They have no means of supporting themselves during these years and many of them, after spending some years, wish they had chosen some other profession which would at least allow them to buy their own nylons and go to the picture show.

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The situation is so desperate these young nurses are talking about being unionized. I do not blame them. Surely, we do not have to drive them to the point of being unionized. We do not have to get to the point where these girls have to bring in people like Hoffa and Banks to organize them in order that they might receive the treatment you would expect for your daughter.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: Yes.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Is the hon. member aware that the topic with which he is dealing, namely the training and organizing of nurses, is in the provincial field of jurisdiction and has nothing to do with the estimates now before the house?


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: I suggest that it should be in the estimates before the committee. I brought this matter up with the former administration. It got to the point where it was being considered by the cabinet. They were considering putting a resolution through as part of the health and welfare estimates. This scheme was frustrated by the nursing profession. You can just leave it there if you want it that way and say, all right, if the president of the nursing profession is speaking for all the young nurses in Canada, then that is what we will do. I assure you she does not speak for these young nurses because my file is full of letters from young nurses all across Canada. This one letter apparently frustrated the idea of giving encouragement to nurses in training in Canada.
I think there is no doubt at all that nurses may well be included in this very vague Bill No. C-110. There is no reference to nurses in the bill, but I asked if they were included and I received a very evasive answer. I believe that any young person in Canada who was expecting some kind of bursary or some kind of loan is to be given encouragement. I believe the provisions of this bill were wide and would include everybody. I am asking the minister, who is in charge of health throughout Canada, to use her good offices to press this point. I was not successful in pushing it through the former administration. I had a most encouraging hearing from the then minister of national health and welfare and, as I said, the subject was being considered by the government. Apparently the idea was frustrated by the members of the nursing profession themselves.

I think this is a shortsighted, narrow view within the nursing profession. I believe it is preventing the recruiting of these nurses which we need so badly. Everybody who has been in hopsital in recent years knows the hospitals are being filled with nurses aides. Everybody knows this is only a stopgap. At one time I believe we had nearly enough nurses to look after the number of beds we had. We are so short of nurses today that we have to bring in untrained girls, pay them $200 or $300 a month to do the very work these nursing students are required to do. They are washing the facilities, you know, and they are scrubbing the floors. They are doing the sort of work they have always done. However because we are short of nurses we bring in nurses aides to do the same work.
Another argument that has been put up by those who do not want to spend money sensibly is that these student nurses are on the job training. When they complete their training, they will be in the professional class. All right, when you join the mounted police as a recruit you are on the job training. Our officers contend that a recruit is absolutely useless to them, in fact he is a detriment. During the first year they are spending all their time getting him used to the saddle, how to handle a rifle, and so on. However, at the present time he gets something like $250 in starting pay and I think that is the way it should be. You will get your value out of him before he completes 25 years in that noble service. Why should nurses not be doing the same thing as other people?
We have lots of people now who are ready to take up the cudgels, and I am one of them, in favour of these young people, these fine young girls, who want to go through to be nurses and have their life of dedicated service. I do not believe that the fact we pay them $300 a month, after they are trained at the end of three years of hard work, necessarily pays them back for everything they have done. A good nurse is priceless. You cannot buy this kind of help. The mere fact that they are dedicated is absolutely no excuse for saying that if you give them a miserable dollar a day they are going to put out the lamp. If that is the kind of lamp we have burning in Canada today, we had better put out that lamp and put another lamp of common sense in there to make sure these girls receive justice. I should like the hon. lady to see my file on this subject. It is quite impressive. If she did, I think she would agree that something should be done.

Then, I should like to consider the patient. I know that if I were a patient seriously ill, knowing that I require my temperature to be taken, I would feel much better if I could see the cap of the trained nurse. Nurses aides are all right because they do the bullwork, but I like to see as many trained nurses as possible when I am sick. My health is important to me. When my wife is sick, it is far more important to me. I have investigated enough hospitals to know that today many hospitals are not equipped with the proper number of professional personnel. If this is the result of niggardliness, I think we are doing it in the wrong place. If we are going to pick on the nursing students, I think that is the wrong place. As I said, I am inclined to think that the graduate nurse herself today is not in agreement with the policy of training. This brings up a matter which I should like to mention, and I am not trying to be critical. I am trying to look to the future. I suggest there may be an answer, and the question of framing-


Lucien Lamoureux: Order please. I regret to have to interrupt the hon. member but I understand a messenger is proceeding from the other place to this chamber. Under the circumstances I think we should rise, report progress, and request leave to sit later this day. Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Progress reported.


THE ROYAL ASSENT
Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, July 28, 1964
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Emmett M. Hall, Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, acting as deputy to His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be.
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
Esmond Butler,
Secretary to the Governor General.
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, it is the desire of the honourable the deputy of his Excellency the Governor General that this honourable house attend him immediately in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
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Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate Chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act respecting the Quebec Board of Trade.
An act to incorporate Nova Scotia Savings & Loan Company.
An act to facilitate the making of loans to students.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Mcllraith-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $696,010,781.01, being the aggregate of-
(a)	two twelfths of the total of all of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending 31 March, 1965, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, $658,598,418.50;
(b)	an additional three twelfths of the amount of transport items 15 and 25, (schedule A) of the said main estimates, $7,044,425:
(c)	an additional one twelfth of the amount of agriculture item 60, fisheries item 20, justice item 1, legislation item 20, mines and technical surveys items 10, 15 , 25 , 45 and 60, national film board item 1, national health and welfare item 15, northern affairs and national resources items 15 and 35, privy council item 25, transport item 1, loans, investments and advances item L10, (schedule B) of the said main estimates, $9,525,758.34;
(d)	two twelfths of all the items to be voted in the supplementary estimates (A) laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament, except national defence item 56a. loans, investments and advances items L17a and L37a, for which no proportion will be granted, $20,840,372.50;
(e)	an additional two twelfths of the amount of justice item 12a (schedule C) of the said supplementary estimates (A), $1,860.67;
be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending 31 March, 1965.
Lucien Lamoureux: Order. The house again in committee of supply; interim supply.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: Mr. Chairman, I was interrupted
in the middle of my presentation by a trip to the other place, and I would like to continue my remarks on the subject of the de-

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partment of health. The remarks I am about to make now are not directly concerned with the department of health as it is set up at the present time, but the duties of the health minister have always been somewhat directed to the welfare of the youth of our country. It is in this regard that I would like to make a proposal this evening.
I propose that a new department be set up, to be known as the department of youth-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: -to bring together and coordinate under one minister or departmental head all those existing services which we already have in the federal government. Some of the provinces have taken a lead in this matter-


An hon. Member:: Which ones?


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: -and have already set up departments of youth. I do not propose that we set up a youth movement such as they have in some of the countries of Europe, but rather a department, as I have said, to co-ordinate all those services we already have in the government.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: At the present time, with the population explosion and the coming of automation, this problem of looking after our youth is far too big for any small group within any one department, and in nearly every department of government we already have existing services for the training of youth. In the Department of Labour, for instance, we have spent millions of dollars in setting up a training program, principally for youth, in the vocational training field. The department of health are worried about the health and welfare of our children. We have not put nearly enough money into such matters as our Olympic games teams and training, and whose responsibility this may be is certainly not clear. I think it comes within the purview of national health.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: My friends in the comer are not my trained seals, and there is really no need for all this slapping and banging down there.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: Obviously they have-


An hon. Member:: Dispense.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: It is obvious that there is a need for juvenile training. Some of the hon. mem-

bers have apparently reached a mature age and a certain physical stature, and I do not propose to give them a lecture on their manners; I expect the minimum.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: In regard to the matter of juvenile delinquency, I suppose the minister might say this is a matter for the justice department, and so it has been up to date. The mounted police have for many years now taken on this work on a voluntary basis; there is no special grant through the federal government to look after the wonderful work which these men have done in their spare time and often with the full approval of their own department.


An hon. Member:: Dispense.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: With the shortening of the hours of labour we are going to have more leisure on our hands. What are the young people going to do? Obviously we need to pay far more attention to the matter of our national parks. I suggest that the minister of northern affairs would be glad to take this work over under a special department with the special mission of looking after our youth.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: I beg the attention of the members of the committee. I think our youth deserve this attention. If my efforts are somewhat inadequate, there is lots of time for those who want to be heard to make their contribution. I hope they will listen to me with the same attention that I will listen to them. The fact is that throughout this whole debate they have chosen to abdicate their position as members of the opposition. I suggest to them that if they have indeed abdicated their position, they might leave this chamber and allow the committee to carry on normal debate.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


An hon. Member:: Dispense.


Lucien Lamoureux: Order, please.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: I thank them for their applause. If they have not the courage or the interest in our young people to get up and say it themselves, there is nothing I appreciate more than their wholehearted support. But I beg them again to withhold their applause, because before I have finished my remarks they will not perhaps be in such a receptive mood.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: 1 would like to charge this department with the responsibility of assisting in a nation-wide program for citizenship training. Citizenship starts with health. Without a very high standard of national health it is difficult to be good citizens, in the true sense. I think a great deal more attention should be paid to this question and more plant should be developed. We are desperately short of facilities for juvenile training in the matter of sports and physical fitness. There are many people in this country who do not want regimentation of any kind. Neither do I. But there are a good many people who are willing to donate their time and talents to such a program if we have the plant and recreational facilities. Many individuals and service groups are willing to co-operate to the fullest extent, but the problem is so large at the present time that I suggest it is time we took on such a program as a national project. Knowing the interest the present minister has taken from one end of her department to the other in the matter of national health, I know her hands are full with the pension plan, aid to the provinces and many of the other projects which are under way in her department. I would suggest, therefore, that she get together with her cabinet colleagues and put forward this suggestion.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Frederick Johnstone (Jack) Bigg: It is nothing new; but nothing definite has been done on it so far. I hope the other members of the committee who have an interest in the young people of our country will at least give me their moral support.


Mr. Rondeau:: Mr. Chairman, after having listened to the hon. member for Athabasca (Mr. Bigg), I should like to refute his arguments one after the other. I see the hon. member is making gestures.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [Text]


Mr. Rynard:: Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Saskatoon on her maiden speech in this house. She pointed out the plight of the mentally ill and geriatric patient. Truly, the saddest hours in anyone's life must be those spent as a geriatric mental patient. She also pointed to the necessity of having patients annexed to a general hospital where they can be treated by a general practitioner for their physical illness and by a psychiatrist for their mental condition.
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Gilles Grégoire: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: One difficulty in carrying out this program is that we have not got the beds. We have not got the accommodation close enough to the general hospitals. Above all, as she so well demonstrated, we have not got the personnel and the psychiatrists to put this plan into effect.
The minister of health and welfare heads a department which is the second highest spending department in the government.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: All of our vast social security plans under the federal government are administered by her department. The Canada pension plan, which is now plan four, will be under her care-or will it?
I should just like to say that this plan must have as its target the care of those who are in need and who have reached the age of retirement or the age where they cannot work any longer no matter what their age. The wealthy and the well-to-do are not likely to need this pension. Indeed the fear which I think must be felt by us all, as the government channels more and more money into its coffers through hospitalization costs, pension plans, unemployment insurance, municipal, provincial and federal taxes, is that the working man, if he apportions it generally, will be left with just enough to buy his food, his clothes and his shelter. This can reach the point where the government will control all investments in the country and direct the persons whose liberty they have nibbled away at over the years under the guise of paternalism.
In the year and a half that this government has been in power what has happened? The first thing they did was to increase income taxes. The second thing was to impose an escalating sales tax of 11 per cent on building materials and equipment. And third, they brought about an almost monthly rise in the cost of living. I am just pointing this out, Mr. Chairman, because it is of concern to us all. If this condition continues and the government keep channelling more and more of the people's earned dollars into government funds, then we will soon become the pawns of the state.
I would be interested in knowing what progress the minister has made in the field of the control of cigarette smoking by our young people at school. I should like to congratulate her on setting an example to our young boys and girls as well as to their

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parents in the steps she has taken. But has she any indication what has been the impact of her plan on the young people at school? How much has been spent of the $600,000 provided? The minister has had her department write a book. I want to compliment her on that book because it is a better book than some of the books written by other ministers. It is a very good book on the dangers of cigarette smoking. What has been the progress made by this book in educating teenagers against the dangers of smoking? What combined oifensive has the government made with the provincial departments of health? Has the story been made impressive enough? Each and every day seven people die in Canada of cancer of the lung. This amounts to 2,500 people per year, which is more than those killed in traffic accidents. Cigarettes are a major cause of cancer of the lung, but how many of our boys and girls across the land have read the minister's book? How many of the 450 boys and girls between the ages of 11 and 17 who start smoking every day have read this book? This matter is of vital concern to every home and to every boy and girl. As the president of the Canadian medical association remarked, several factors play a part in cancer of the lung, including air pollution, but the most important factor of all is cigarette smoking.
Cigarette smoking per capita has tripled in the last 20 years. This is an amazing thing when we consider how cancer of the lung has increased so rapidly, faster than any other cancer in the body. Doctor Best of the department of health reported in a six year study of the smoking habits of 78,000 war veterans of the first great war, the second great war and the Korean war that the cause of death of these veterans was as follows. Four hundred and fifty four smokers died of lung cancer compared with every 100 nonsmokers. Thirty nine per cent of these veterans died from coronary artery disease and 47 per cent died from other heart and circulatory disease. For persons over 30 who smoked cigarettes only the death rate was 52 per cent higher. Surely no further argument is needed.
I would ask the minister whether she is satisfied that she is doing everything she should. Is she satisfied that her budget of $600,000 is enough? How much of this figure has she spent? Is the minister satisfied with supporting the tobacco grower of cigarette tobacco, or is it better to encourage cigar and pipe tobacco smoking or chewing tobacco

growers, and to discourage the cultivation of cigarette tobacco? I wonder. Cigarettes are the worst offender in cancer of the lung. I think this is worth thinking about because the manufacturers of cigarettes have not done enough research to prove what is the carcinogenic material in cigarettes. Therefore, 1 think it behooves us, if people are going to continue to smoke, to switch them into the tobacco, which will not have such a deleterious effect as cigarettes, such as cigar smoking, pipe smoking and, if you want, chewing tobacco. I think we should consider this very seriously as grown up adults, and not in a political way.
Has the minister considered any plan to control cigarette advertising? Tobacco companies on the North American continent spend $150 million on advertising each year. They do this in the hope of selling more of their product or having people switch to another brand. Otherwise they would not spend the money. Has the minister or her department considered the printing of a warning on every package of cigarettes? I do not know whether the minister is listening. Generally she is fairly attentive.


An hon. Member:: She is not interested.


Philip Bernard Rynard: She does not appear to be interested but this comes under her department. I say again: Has the minister considered the printing of a warning on cigarette packages? This comes under her department and she should be considering it.
I should also like to ask the minister if she has considered setting up a committee to check on cigarette advertising. In the United States they have agreed to appoint a controller of advertising. I suggest to the minister that it would be good business for her and her department to consider the same sort of control.
I feel the problem is a very serious one in that the boys and girls who are going to school should be kept from smoking cigarettes. I wonder whether we are doing all we can to enforce the law. I am wondering about the cigarette vending machines where you put in your money, push a little button and a package of cigarettes comes out. What is to prevent a boy or girl under 16 getting cigarettes from such a vending machine? What has the department done about that? Is it sincere about the program or is it just paying lipservice to it?
If my memory serves me correctly, a survey made in the province of Saskatchewan

indicated that 50 per cent of the boys attending high school smoked and 33J per cent of the girls.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: If some of us are not concerned about the deleterious and fatal effects of cancer of the lung I think we should be most concerned from an economic point of view, because it has been proved over and over again that the boys and girls who start smoking in high school have the worst academic records. I say that this is costing the country a lot of money.
We have also been told that the government is studying the Hall royal commission report and is going to bring in its recommendations very soon. I would remind the Minister of National Health and Welfare and the government that in less than 10 years from now, 1970, we will be short 7,000 doctors in the Dominion of Canada. I have stated this before but the problem is very serious. This information is found in the Hall commission report.
The hon. member for Saskatoon ably pointed out the mess we are in today because of the lack of trained personnel in the field of psychiatry, and the same condition is rapidly developing in the field of medicine generally. The Hall commission report also points out that we will need five new medical schools. I say to the government that before they can implement the report of the commission the federal government or the provincial governments must get busy and build more medical schools and universities. If we do not have the buildings we cannot train the young men and women of this country as doctors dentists, nurses and scientists.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: This is one of the very pressing problems facing the Department of National Health and Welfare today. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe we raised the per capita grant from $1 to $2, when we were in power. The minister is watching me and if I am wrong I know I will be corrected. I suggest to the department that the per capita grant be doubled again because of the pressing need for more university buildings. I see the hon. member for Kingston is listening and I am sure he will agree, in view of the program and the needs of Queen's University.
In my own riding of Simcoe East there is a radar station that is being closed down. The buildings and grounds cost approximately $9 million but they are now in the hands of
20220-386J
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Crown Assets Disposal Corporation. In view of the report of the Hall commission and in view of what we know about the situation in respect of education, I think it would be one of the finest things the federal government could do if it would make a grant sufficient to establish a university there. The buildings and the site are available. All the government has to do is to make the necessary grant to get the personnel so that a university can be established. I am sure the provincial government would gladly receive the grant.
Once again I reiterate that time is running out, because 1970 is less than 10 years away when we will need all these trained personnel.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: We have been getting them from Europe and Great Britain and we will still need these people very badly in the next few years until we turn out the necessary graduates. Remember that it takes seven years from the time a doctor starts until he graduates. This is the real problem. You cannot start today and graduate tomorrow. Time is running out on us. We have a problem right now which has existed for some time but it is becoming more acute. All one has to do is read the daily press to learn how hard pressed most doctors are today.
So I say to the government that even before they consider the Hall commission report they must deal with this matter as one of very great urgency because how can they consider a plan when they do not have the personnel? We have got to have universities. We have got to have the buildings and equipment. We must have the trained personnel. To my mind this makes sense.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Philip Bernard Rynard: The time is late and the matter is urgent. Again I ask the minister to keep in mind some of the R.C.A.F. stations that are being abandoned because the air force has no further use for them. I ask the minister to look at them very carefully to see if they cannot be utilized for the training of the young men and young women we need so badly in the professional world. I want to thank my friends to the left for their applause.


Mr. Irvine:: Mr. Chairman, I would be remiss at this time if I did not extend my sincere congratulations to the hon. member for Saskatoon on the occasion of her maiden speech in the house. I know how she must have felt because it is not too long ago that I had the same experience. At that time my legs were shaking badly and my knees were

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knocking. But the hon. member tor Saskatoon made an outstanding contribution to the debate and I think she should be congratulated by every member in the house on this occasion.
I seize this opportunity to say a few words on the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare. Actually, time does not mean anything anyway. It is quite apparent we are going to sit here all summer.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Orlikow:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if this house is going to spend the next two hours listening to the kind of organized heckling which we have had. Surely the members who want to speak have a right to speak while order is maintained. We sat here last week while the members of this group put on the record their opinions of the students loan fund, whether it was constitutional or whether it infringed the rights of the people of Quebec. Nobody interfered with them. Nobody questioned their right to speak. I appeal to you-I think it is useless to appeal to them or to their common sense and judgment-to exercise the authority which you have. Let us have a little order.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to speak to the point of order because I had similar trouble with the members of the Creditiste party last week, particularly the hon. member for Lapointe. I draw your attention, sir, to standing order 59, paragraph (4) which reads:
The chairman shall maintain order in the committees of the whole house, deciding all questions of order subject to an appeal to the house; hut disorder in a committee can only be censured by the house, on receiving a report thereof.
I think, sir, that gives you the necessary authority that is required to restrain this type of interruption, which is simply disorder.


John Alfred Irvine: I should like to have the floor again.


Lucien Lamoureux: Hon. members who take part in a debate in the committee are entitled to be heard without interruption from other hon. members in the committee. Hon. members will realize this and will want to cooperate with the Chair. I therefore appeal to members in the committee to be fair in this way and allow their colleagues a chance to be heard quietly.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few remarks on the point of order.

You have certainly noticed that we have often applauded from the very beginning. In fact, we have applauded when the hon. member for Simcoe East (Mr. Rynard) mentioned that tobacco was dangerous. We have also applauded when someone pointed out what the minister should do, because we felt that those were proper suggestions. We applauded when the hon. member who now has the floor said that we were going to sit all summer, because we feel that this makes sense.
I wonder why the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) and the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Orlikow) should wish to prevent us from showing our approval when we feel that certain remarks are appropriate.
Besides that, I cannot see what trouble we may have caused. I have been in this house for two years and I did not know that applause was not allowed.
When the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) speaks, all Conservatives without exception applaud, even if what he says means nothing.
When an hon. member makes remarks which are meaningful and is applauded, we should not be accused of causing disorder; on the contrary, we approve him.
Therefore, why complain?


Lucien Lamoureux: Order. I am sure the hon. member for Lapointe understands very well the point raised by the members objecting to the applause, too prolonged perhaps, for some of their colleagues, and I ask him to cooperate with the Chair in order to allow the hon. member who has the floor to continue his remarks without interruption.


John Alfred Irvine: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much your remarks. I know that you are not going to penalize me for the time of which I have been robbed. I should like to say that I do not know why the hon. member for Lapointe would say he would be willing to sit here all summer because he has not sat during any part of the session. He has had springs in his posterior. He has been up and down like a jack-in-the-box. I should like to say also that these trained seals we have-


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege.
The hon. member who now has the floor just stated that I have not taken part in the debates of the house from my seat. One must

be really impudent to say such a thing because, if he referred to Hansard, he would see that I have been here every day. Besides, when he rose to speak, I said to one of my colleagues: "Where has this one been all the time; is he a new member?" I tell you quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, that neither I nor my colleagues have ever seen him. It takes some cheek to make such a statement.


John Alfred Irvine: As I say, I do not mind the trained seals getting up and kind of flapping their flippers a little bit, but I wish they would improve their sense of rhythm, because they are out of metre. They are putting the punctuation marks in the wrong places in my speech. I know they will co-operate with me, and I appreciate that very much.
As I was saying a moment ago, time does not actually mean too much because we are going to be here all summer. So far as I am concerned, I am satisfied if we sit here until Christmas. We have a lot of work to do, and let us get along with it. I should like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare if she feels this is actually in the best interest of the health and welfare of the members if we do sit all summer and fall.
Last night I referred to one of the ministers who has co-operated with me a great deal. There are other ministers who have done the same thing. I am very pleased with that experience of being able to do some business with them. However I did have occasion some time ago, as a result of a phone call which I received from the city clerk of the city of London, to try to obtain a reference from the Minister of National Health and Welfare for a man who was making application for the position of assistant city solicitor. Now, I did go to the minister because the man in question had worked in her office for five years. I shall not dilate too much on the reference that was given, but I will say that the adjectives that were used were actually something to behold. They were far from complimentary. I am asking this question: Why did she keep him for five years? Was the report I received a personal report, and if so how personal was it? It does illustrate one of two things, Mr. Chairman-either a great amount of vindictiveness or a lack of administrative and executive ability. I am asking, Mr. Chairman, is this the kind of person who should head up such an important portfolio as that of health, welfare and truth? This department is today working on a budget of something like $700 million.
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I should like also to say something tonight with regard to, I was going to say, the Canada pension plan but, perhaps I should say a Canada pension plan, because we have had so many of them. The first one that was introduced, you will recall, resulted in the province of Quebec opting out, and it was taken back. Then, at the time of the introduction of the next plan the premier of Ontario objected, I think after much provocation, and refused to deal with the minister. I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, just what we do at this point. It is quite apparent that at that time the Prime Minister stepped in and perhaps assumed a great deal of responsibility. To whom do we turn now? Do we still deal with the Prime Minister or has the Minister of National Health and Welfare been reinstated? People want to get along with this plan. There are many people in this country who are interested in this plan and they would like to get along with the introduction of it. We know that there are constitutional amendments that are necessary. Perhaps if this had been properly researched in the first place, the constitutional amendment might have been secured before the plan was presented to the house.
I should also like to say a word about blind pensions. This is assistance for those people who live in a world of darkness, people who have a special cross of their own to bear. They should receive some sort of special treatment. In most cases when a person who is blind goes outside his own domicile he must have someone to go along with him. This is a necessity, and in many cases a costly necessity. If he goes downtown, or to the centre of the area where he lives, he must go by bus or other special public transportation, and this is an extra cost.
Further, because of their infirmity, blind people are not able to read the advertisements in their local papers so that they can take advantage of the specials advertised and thus save money on their purchases. For these and many other reasons I think there should be a very definite and immediate review of their allowances.
I have a copy of a magazine published by the Confederation of the Blind, Inc., called "Vision". It is the 1964 summer issue, volume 19, No. 2 and I should like to quote some of the resolutions passed by the Canadian Federation of the Blind in convention assembled on June 23, 1964:
Therefore be it resolved that the Canadian Federation of the Blind continue to ask the dominion government to increase the blind pension from $75 per month to $85 per month for every blind person.

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Resolved that the Canadian Federation of the Blind press the dominion government to make the blind pension available to all blind children upon reaching the age of 16 years.
Further on it states:
Therefore be it resolved that the Canadian Federation of the Blind continue to press the provincial governments for a school to be established in the province of Saskatchewan as soon as possible.
I think we might help in this. It is very important work. The magazine goes on to say:
Therefore be it resolved that the means test at present in effect on the government pension to the blind be removed, permitting a blindness allowance to be paid to all blind persons.
The final item I would like to read is this:
Be it resolved that the Canadian Federation of the Blind urge the government of Canada to abolish the means test at present in effect on the pension to the blind so that it shall be paid to all blind persons as the allowance recommended by the world council for the welfare of the blind.
I think we might even expand on this a little further, and if necessary we could go to the department and do a little checking, cut out a great deal of the waste, and place some of the money in the places where it is needed so badly.
With regard to the disabled persons allowances, they need assistance because of the rising cost of living, just as the blind people need assistance. These are things which the department should be considering, and in addition there is the assistance to our senior citizens. I have with me a copy of a letter from Fort Macleod, Alberta, which I think all hon. members received, and I would like to quote a portion of it:
-the pensioners and senior citizens go on record as extending a sincere thanks for all that has been done and hope further assistance is forthcoming.
Whereas a couple in receipt of old age pension and death strikes, leaving a burden on the survivor for debts incurred; be it resolved that the pension of the deceased be continued for a period of six months.
Whereas the price of drugs and medical prescriptions are generally too high for pensioners and others of low income and appear to the lay mind exorbitant; be it resolved that we ask for an impartial government inquiry as to whether such prices are justified or necessary, and if found to be so, whether some system could be devised whereby they could be made available, free when necessary, to those below income tax level.
Further they state, and I am not necessarily recommending this except for study, that the old age security pension be given at age 65 and that old age assistance be given at age 60. The letter goes on to say:
Resolved that old age security pension be increased to $85 per month. However, we consider

that, whereas the cost of living has been, and continues to rise and whereas a contributory old age security contributory scheme is in the offing; therefore be it enacted that the old age security monthly pension be raised by $5 each year until a pension of $100 monthly is reached. Why not mark Canada's centennial year by reaching that $100 by the 100th celebration of existence of our country?
I could go on at great length dealing with numerous people who need assistance. In many cases they will not come to us but I think we should go to them and protect them because they need the protection we are in a position to give them.
There are the retarded children, and these embrace a great group of people. There are about half a million retarded children in Canada-and I am not including the people in the far corner of this chamber. This half million directly affect approximately another one million people in their families. I have here a letter which I received from the secretary of the London branch of the Canadian association for retarded children, wherein she says this:
In the proposal you will note we have referred to the fact that the C.N.I.B. already receives a $50,000 grant from the federal government for support in its program, yet mental retardation ranks first among the chronic disabilities of childhood. Socially it is the most serious problem in respect of the number affected and its effect on the lives of all those closely involved with the problem.
I realize that the government is watching its spending very closely but surely if it can find $600,000 to support a preventive program on smoking it can afford the $65,000 the Canadian association for retarded children has requested in this proposal.
Finally I would point out to you that, as a result of the magnitude of this problem approximately one in nine people in your constituency are affected in their attempts to develop community facilities for the retarded of all ages.
I think the amount they ask, only $65,000, is a pitifully small amount when you consider how worthy the cause is and I suggest to the minister, when she gets through reading the paper, that she take a look at this letter.
There are so many areas in this department and we waste so much money that it seems to me with good business methods we could cut and pare a little bit of waste, and find enough money to provide this assistance for retarded children.
I would like to say in conclusion-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John Alfred Irvine: You know, Mr. Chairman, it is very odd that when people retire for dinner they get tied up with a mixture of south wind and rainwater and react very strangely.

With great respect for the people in the department I say there is so little completed and so much to be done that I shall sit down so that the minister can finally start to work.


Mr. Enns:: There have been many interesting and apt comments made about the Department of National Health and Welfare this afternoon. Since the department in question is the second largest spending department in the government, I certainly think it is legitimate for the committee to spend a few hours of its time examining some of the expenditures proposed or to be made by this important department. We have had no other opportunity to examine them and many of us have been anxious to discuss some of the interesting and important programs which come within the minister's purview.
The annual report put out by the department makes interesting reading and touches on a wide field of activities which affect every single Canadian be he young or old, active or retired, sick or well. This being the case, the department has been able to provide some interesting and necessary measures to improve the lives of the people to whom they are directed. I was very interested, as were other members of this committee, in the address given by the hon. member for Saskatoon. I thought her learned dissertation served as an example of application to government business which we would do well to follow. The hon. lady pointed out that improved facilities and increases in competent professional staff have much to do with the efficacy of services, and I share her view in this regard. While these improvements seem to call for an increase in expenditure, the greater response which follows from improved care enables patients to get back much earlier to a productive role in the community than would otherwise be the case, so that they can once again take their place side by side with those who are paying income tax and helping to provide for these medical services.
Though we talk about the large sums spent by this department, we are not saying they are too large. We simply want the right and the privilege to suggest how this money might best be applied. This is what we have been doing this afternoon and there have been some interesting comments about the activities of this important department. The hon. member for Saskatoon mentioned the benefits which have followed the use of sheltered workshops-how they have helped in the convalescence of the mentally ill. I believe
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this system could be extended and, indeed, it has been extended to others such as the mentally retarded, the physically handicapped, blind and other disabled persons who are unable to compete on today's competitive labour market in the absence of some special provision which makes it possible for them to gain a livelihood.
This brings up the question of increased grants toward the maintenance of these facilities. While many grants are being increased year by year it seems we still have to persuade government and society-persuade ourselves, really-that this is a good investment; that it is, in the long term, a saving because it will mean a return to a useful life so much earlier of a great many people who are at present in need of assistance.
The hon. member for the Northwest Territories showed that savings amounting to more than $8 million could be made by the proper location of hospitals and he gave some logical reasons why this should be done. These are some of the things which have been said this afternoon. I wanted to follow them up and to preface the second part of my remarks by saying it is important we have the right attitudes in this house, in this country, and in society generally so that we may work out the kind of legislation which will be most useful to the people it is designed to benefit.
I was very pleased to take part in the conference on the family which was held at Rideau Hall earlier this summer. On June 7, deeply moving ceremonies took place at Government House at which there were warm expressions of gratitude to Governor General and Madame Vanier for having inspired the conference and brought it to life. I hope this conference will become a useful legacy to Canada in the same way as other legacies have been left to us by governors general of days gone by-and I think, in passing, of the Victorian Order of Nurses, the Grey cup and Massey hall, to mention only a few of the legacies which have been left to us by the highest officials of the land.
For three days, some 300 highly qualified and competent persons from a wide range of disciplines discussed matters not specifically directed to welfare activities alone, but concerning, nevertheless, the well-being of the family. Such matters as health and welfare, education, income, community planning and family stability were discussed and some of the generalized conclusions we often reach about such matters were brought into question and received some scientific testing. I was

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very interested, for example, to hear views on the effect of mobility on the stability of family life. We often hear it said that it is this restlessness, this mobility which has been an important factor in loosening family ties. But I was reminded at the conference that when our grandparents moved from the rural areas to the cities, perhaps a distance of only 150 miles, they might as well have crossed an ocean, such was the lack of communication facilities at that time. I was also reminded that within only a 60 year period, or perhaps somewhat longer, the prairies of Manitoba and other western parts of Canada were being put to the plow by families from the British Isles, the Ukraine and other European countries. This all involved the movement of people, yet it did not assist toward the destruction of family life.
Thus, I question the simple diagnosis that the disintegration of family life today has come about because we move around so much. In fact, these people of migrant stock, established in so many communities, did much for Canadian culture by bringing with them their European traditions and sense of individuality. Many generations have been raised and have grown up in the same community as those in which their grandparents lived. To a certain extent, this provided for them a measure of security. On the other hand many families did not move away, simply because they were never able to do so; they were not making an adequate living where they were, and they never had the funds to make it possible to move elsewhere. In this connection I am interested to see how the program sponsored by the Minister of Industry will work out- the program to relocate people who live in areas of chronic unemployment.
I think it is appropriate to call to the attention of the committee the message delivered by the Governor General to the conference on the family because I believe that the success of any legislation depends on proper attitude toward the national need. The Governor General phrased this in an excellent way in the statement he made at the conference and I will read his words from the June issue of the publication Canadian Welfare put out by the Canadian Welfare Council.
Many years of observation, experience and study have convinced my wife and me that happy and united families make a happy and united community and thus constitute an essential element of peace in our world.
The family, although a unit small in size, is the most important of all, because upon it depends the future of mankind. The role of the family

is not limited merely to the physical existence of future generations but extends to moral and spiritual considerations as well. Parents, united by ties of affection and devoid of self-interest, are the first to open the hearts and minds of children to the values of the spirit, values of truth, justice and religion. The parents plant the first seeds of love, generosity and selflessness and thus fashion and guide youth on the way to becoming citizens devoted to noble causes for the common good.
Unfortunately our time, for the young, is one of confusion and disorder in which the state of the family is sadly threatened, but it is not without hope. There is an elite of thinkers and of social workers struggling, with intelligence and devotion, with the problems of our society. There is an elite of parents and educators earnestly striving to hearten and inspire youth. Is it not worth while, then, that men and women of good will should meet and exchange ideas and experiences, that they should together examine the special difficulties of the family in this modem age?
I quote this because I think it is very appropriate to the discussion on any of the measures of the Department of National Health and Welfare, because these great expenditures are and have been made necessary because of the ills that have crept into our way of life. We are spending moneys, and therefore we need to understand why it is becoming necessary to spend moneys. What do we pay, for example, for unemployment? It has been said, and we know from statistics, that an average of 6 or 7 per cent of the labour force has been unemployed in recent years. With this kind of drop in employment our productivity naturally also decreases. It has been estimated that in the last two or three years this lack of employment, or this decrease in productivity, has cost the country between $2| billion and $3 billion in terms of the decline in the gross national product. This is a price we have paid-and we cannot retrieve it-to say nothing of the human qualities that accompany unemployment, the loss of dignity, lack of happiness, lack of fulfilment, and so forth.
What do we pay for sickness? This is very hard to tabulate, because enormous amounts of money are spent at the municipal level, the provincial level and the federal level, in addition to the moneys paid out by the individuals themselves. Again, the price is enormous. We paid it last year and the year before, and we will pay it again. Is it not fair to ask: Are we spending this money in the most equitable manner possible. What is the cost of lack of education? There are a host of things that could be listed here. There is the cost to the individual and the cost to society. To the individual it often

means less employment possibilities, lack of self-realization and often long periods of existence on welfare benefits and the like. To society it has greater implications, this lack of proper education with the proper attitudes that go with it. For one thing the lack of a widely based education can produce shortsighted and ineffective government policies. It has been said that many causes have contributed to delinquency, but certainly lack of education is one of these. One of the other results of ignorance or lack of education is the manner in which newspapers devote so much space to the sensational reporting of crime. If we were not so anxious to read these sensational reports, the newspapers would not want to publish them; but we seem to want them and therefore the newspapers give them to us. It is reflected in another area of our life, and that is the jukeboxes and radios blaring out a cacophony of primitive noises that raise doubts whether civilization is advancing at all. It is reflected in a surfeit of phony westerns, cops and robbers and spurious medics that have made a wasteland of television. The hon. member for Athabasca mentioned modern art as coming into this category.
These are the costs of lack of education, of informed thought, and these costs are inescapable. Against such costs the price of education seems ridiculously low. In these areas, then, we have no choice about paying, because we have already paid and will have to pay again; but we certainly have a large element of choice as to how we shall continue to pay. If we are wise we shall pay for improved education, health and welfare and similar services simply because we cannot afford ignorance, we cannot afford sickness and we cannot afford personal misery. We must learn therefore to pay for positive and preventive measures, rather than for negative and only remedial actions. For this reason I believe conferences such as the one sponsored by the Governor General will develop the kind of attitude, the kind of thought, the kind of co-ordinated promotion that might yet bring about the measures we so badly need.
All these areas, ignorance, sickness, poverty and crime are inter-related and react to each other. The proverb "Many are the handmaidens of poverty" is so true. There is a great need for closer integration of the efforts of all the helping professions and organizations. A beginning was made with the conference on the family, where these different professions did meet together. When I
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was asked what I felt was the outcome of this conference I said that the biggest accomplishment was the fact that it was being held. This is a beginning, and a step in the right direction.
The dark spectre of poverty seems to hang behind many of the needs and programs that the department has to administer. A best selling book about poverty in the United States and a recent C.B.C. television program on the series "Horizon" called "Another Canada" have made us all aware that poverty does haunt this land. The "Horizon" program used figures from the dominion bureau of statistics to show that a minimum of 3 million persons in Canada are poor, and as a general, rough guideline they defined poor in this way; in the city, families who have an income of less than $2,500 per year, and in the rural areas families that have an income of $1,200 or less per year. It has been stated that this is a minimum figure and some estimates go as high as 5 million people in Canada who live at this marginal level of existence. I think this is a regrettable development in this affluent country, and we really are not concerned enough about this because the people for the most part are invisible. Yet they are Canadians and fellow citizens. We must provide measures that will improve their lot. Thus we will really improve the lot of everyone in the country, because they can become much more useful to society if they can be made part of it, not only by giving them employment but by making them feel they belong to the society also.
Lack of motivation, lack of hope and incentive is a more subtle but no less formidable barrier than lack of financial needs. This is so often the case with people who have not had the opportunities to develop and reach their full potential. Poverty breeds poverty, and this is an endless cycle. Unless somewhere someone can break the cycle, I think recommendations such as those coming out of the Hall commission report give us some clue as to how we can break this cycle. The fact that health services are being recommended for all, regardless of ability to pay, is very necessary because many times it is lack of adequate health standards that puts a person in a position where he cannot remain employed or cannot reach his full potential in school, or where his parents are limited, for financial reasons, in providing those health measures that are so necessary for all of us. I think the Hall commission report gives us some guidelines and I am hopeful that the

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government will find an early opportunity to implement this report.
While speaking about the Hall commission report, I want to make reference to a lesser recommendation because I am sure other hon. members will give fuller treatment to this report. One of the recommendations is that the administration of health services for Indians and Eskimos should be entrusted to the provinces, and health services should be provided in the same manner and in the same quality as those enjoyed by other Canadians. I want to really emphasize this because at the present time there seems to be a double standard. There are many situations in which, just because a person is an Indian there is a division in the type of service offered at the present time. Not too long ago I asked question No. 1,405 of the minister, and this question was answered last Monday. I asked the minister whether or not Indian children in Winnipeg or other centres, who for medical reasons were placed in foster homes, were placed in licensed homes in accordance with local child care standards. The answer given was that some of the homes so used are licensed by the city of Winnipeg as boarding homes for children. The answer went on:
However the city health regulations do not require licensing of homes caring for less than three children at a time. It is not departmental practice to place more than two children in any one home at any one time.
It is with this answer that I want to quarrel with the minister, because I do not understand how it is that the city of Winnipeg health regulations with regard to Indian children would be different from those concerning the placement of other children. I know from my own experience that a child placed in a foster home must be placed in a home with a boarding permit, and if this answer is correct I am anxious to know why this is not required with Indian children. The specific situation which prompted this question arose from a case where neighbours had been complaining of the maltreatment of Indian children in a specific foster home. Therefore I would ask that the situation be looked into, because I shudder to think of children being brought to a centre for medical attention because they have been mistreated by improperly supervised foster parents who may not have the children's welfare at heart but perhaps only the fee provided for their services.
I do not wish to malign foster parents in general because I have the highest regard for people who are able to function in this way. These people are able to give of themselves to
[Mr. Enns.f
other people's children; they are able to take them into their homes and their hearts. I think they are the kind of people who have a special place in our society and perhaps in heaven, for that matter, because few of us could perform the service that foster parents provide. But there are those not properly screened who do not have this facility and actually do damage to such children. It is for this reason that I show concern over this double standard in the area of health services as between Indians and Eskimos and the rest of our Canadian children. That these are difficult and even baffling times is true; but they are not times for despair but for informed, forthright and purposeful decisions. Is this too much to expect from the present government?


Mr. Howe (Wellinglon-Huron):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to add my words of congratulation to those which have already been said to the hon. member for Saskatoon on a very well prepared and well delivered speech this afternoon. I welcome this opportunity to join with my colleagues who have taken this opportunity as the first which has been presented to discuss the estimates of a very important department, one of the largest spending departments in this great business of government where we are at the present time spending almost $7 billion.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Where did you get that figure from?


William Marvin Howe: I should like to reiterate the criticism which has been made by some of my colleagues in connection with the haphazard, shilly-shally way in which the business of the house has been handled.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: Would the hon. member advise me where he gets the figure of $7 billion for the department of health and welfare?


William Marvin Howe: That is $7 billion total government spending. The hon. lady probably has the estimates before her, which amount to some $6,700 million, but with all the supplementary estimates this figure will probably go up to $7 billion.


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: I understood him to refer to my department.


William Marvin Howe: The hon. lady misunderstood my remarks. It is rather interesting to notice how properly trained "seals" on the back benches are following the advice given to them by the "old gang" sitting in the front benches and not participating in this debate. No doubt they have some ideas too on how the department of health

and welfare might be improved in areas where there is greater need for work and research. Although my experience in this house does not extend as far back as some others, it has always been the rule that a short time after the preliminary debates in each session take place, motions of supply are presented, and following that two days of every week are set aside for the discussion of the estimates of different departments. This practice has not been followed in this session, so therefore we as a responsible opposition must seize this opportunity to bring before the government areas in regard to action in which we feel they have been delinquent. It is also interesting to note that the parties to my left, which are always the proponents of social welfare schemes, have not deemed it worth while to participate in this debate at any time during the last two days or to make any comments on this very important department.
Although for many years medical organizations, individually and collectively, have been issuing warnings as to the hazards of cigarette smoking, it was not until the announcement made by the United States department of health some months ago that the matter seemed to be brought to a head. In fact, it almost amounted in some cases to a national hysteria. We all remember the reactions which followed when through our news media- radio, t.v. and the newspapers

the effects of this hazard were made known. I might join the hon. member for Simcoe East in congratulating the minister on her ability to stop smoking as she did. However, the notoriety given to this action and the fact that a fund of $600,000 was set up for research into the subject sent the hon. member for Norfolk into such a political "tizzy" that his pleas to the Minister of Agriculture could no longer be denied. In spite of the fact that there were many more pressing subjects of a national nature which should have been discussed in the standing committee on agriculture, all of the meetings of that committee so far this year have been taken up with a discussion of ways and means to increase production of tobacco.
In other words, Mr. Chairman, on the one hand we find the government has set up a fund to examine and report on the effects on the health of the nation of the use of tobacco; and on the other, before the report is presented, we find another area crying for assistance to produce more of this product. This is not only a national but an international problem, we realize, because of the report that
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was issued by the United States; but I was rather interested the other day in picking up one of the Soviet magazines which are sent to most members of the house and noticing in it an article on cigarette smoking. I do not often read these publications but this was quite an interesting article. Apparently Russian scientists were unable to prove that the use of tobacco was a direct cause of lung cancer, but they found that its use did increase the activity of the disease and tended to cause a reduction in the efficiency of the respiratory organs. In fact, according to the article they were so perturbed about the situation that they have entered upon a comprehensive program of education in their schools to teach children about the hazards of this easy to acquire and hard to kick habit. I think it would be well if at some of the dominion-provincial conferences between the Minister of National Health and Welfare and her colleagues in the provincial governments some consideration were given to a program of this type in Canada.
However, Mr. Chairman, the use of tobacco and its effects is not the main theme of my remarks tonight. I should like to discuss a subject that is closely related, a subject that scientific research has proved has a great deal to do with causing cancer, throat and lung infections and sometimes heart disease. I refer to air pollution. It is my sincere hope that through this discussion I may bring once again to the attention of the house and the nation in general an awareness of the dangers we encounter in the air we breathe. This is not a new subject for discussion in the house. I remember that in 1956 the former member for Brant-Haldimand presented a private member's bill the theme of which was air pollution and its hazards to health.
That this is a constant threat to our health is borne out by the many editorial and newspaper articles written on the subject. It was brought home rather forcefully in my own area during the recent Lions club convention held in Kitchener. I should like to quote from an article in the London Free Press of Tuesday, June 2, 1964. The article is headed, "Blame Parade 'Poison' On Monoxide Fumes", and reads in part as follows:
Four members of the Georgina township police band and majorette corps were released from St. Mary's general hospital here yesterday after spending the night in hospital with possible carbon monoxide poisoning following the Lions club parade Sunday.
Dr. G. E. (Duff) Wilson, Kitchener's medical officer of health, said that food poisoning has been ruled out. Of the four patients interviewed, two had not eaten in the area and the other two

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had eaten different things. Twelve members of the band and majorettes were taken to hospitals following the parade.
Dr. Wilson said last night that the band members were marching behind a motorized float giving off carbon monoxide fumes during the 21 mile parade. "This could easily be the cause", he said.
This identical situation is happening practically every day and every week, particularly during the summer, in towns, cities and villages all across Canada.
Canadians have fought hard for the pure food laws and Canadian manufacturers spend millions of dollars each year to guarantee that our food is uncontaminated. We have as a government introduced legislation to assist municipalities to provide adequate water and sewage systems and have made available millions of dollars to carry out these plans. There have been many debates on the question of fluoridation to prevent tooth decay but it was not until 1956, according to the answer to my question 1,065 of this session, that anything was done in a national way about the air we breathe. I quote from the return:
The air pollution program was initiated in 1956 within the occupational health division of the Department of National Health and Welfare and has cost about $400,000 since that time. The program is closely integrated with air pollution control activities of provincial health departments.
This return would indicate that control matters do come under provincial jurisdiction, and after the debate of last week on student loans, when the bogey of interference in educational matters was raised, I wonder whether it might not come into this matter too. However the health of the nation is important to all levels of government. This is a national problem. I do not feel that the amount of $50,000 a year is adequate to deal with this very complex and difficult problem. It would appear that our neighbours to the south are very conscious of the problem and are so disturbed that they are doing something about it. I have here a recent newspaper report headed, "Senate Rebuffs Lobbies, Passes Air Pollution Bill", which reads in part as follows:
Despite bitter opposition by big business lobbies, the U.S. Senate passed a bill authorizing a $182 million, five year program of federal aid to state and local governments in combatting air pollution.
Senator Edmund S. Muskie, chief sponsor of the bill, explained that its main provisions would help "initiate and improve air pollution control programs, expand research, and give the U.S. health, education and welfare department enforcement power in interstate air pollution cases."
Apparently the bill was opposed by the national association of manufacturers who

tried to intimate that once again this was an encroachment on state rights. However Senator Muskie pointed out that few states have any laws on the subject and still fewer states and cities are doing a real enforcement job. Then he went on to say:
Fresh air is life. Polluted air means disease and death. Untold thousands of Americans have suffered and died as a result of the effects of air pollution.
Another senator who supported the bill had this to say:
Now it is clear that additional government authority and action are necessary to assure the right to breathe pure air.
The question of air pollution was brought into world wide prominence a few years ago. We all remember the situation that developed in Los Angeles and which lasted for many months. To a large extent it was due to the fact that Los Angeles has more automobiles for its population than any other city in the world. I should like to quote from an article that appeared in the Canadian Weekly published by the Toronto Star, for the week of November 23, 1963. The article is by John O'Keefe. We sometimes say these things cannot happen to us, but the article reads in part as follows:
During the early hours of Tuesday, Sept. 9, 1952, a light haze developed over the Windsor-Detroit area and it got worse as the day wore on. By early evening people began coughing and eyes watered in the acrid air. Two days later the smog hung like a thick blanket over the area and visibility was so bad that two ships ran aground in the Detroit river. Traffic crawled and tempers flared as people became more irritable. Plants withered and died in the murky atmosphere and doctors were overrun with complaints of chest troubles, nausea and diarrhea.
The smog lasted three days and during that time at least 35 infants died-twice the normal number for the period-and the number of people dying of respiratory diseases jumped two and a half times.
This happened in Windsor, Ontario in 1952. However, Mr. Chairman, as has been proven on so many occasions, there is another type of smog that has only recently been discovered. It is an invisible smog which the sun brews from the unseen chemicals and gases that remain suspended in the air, too fine to be seen except with complicated equipment. This is ozone which is created through a photochemical reaction of the hydrocarbon and oxides of nitrogen discharged from automobile exhausts and diesel engines. Add to this the deadly carbon monoxide fumes which are being spewed into the atmosphere by the ever increasing number of motor vehicles, and you have a doubly dangerous situation.

You can neither taste, smell nor feel carbon
monoxide, yet in a very short time it can be the means of impairing the mental faculties of a driver to the point where co-ordination of muscles and the ability to react properly in the operation of a motor vehicle are below even the minimum requirements of safety.
There have been, as I indicated earlier in my speech, many articles written. Statistics have been provided by most eminent authorities, all of which indicate that this is, as the article indicates, a silent killer. According to the return I mentioned previously, it would appear we are depending on our neighbour to the south for most of our information and our research on this subject. This is rather interesting, Mr. Chairman, when we realize that we are only spending approximately $50,000 a year in this most important field of research. This is what the return I received from the minister says:
Intensive studies on various control systems have been under way in the United States by the public health service, the state of California, the automobile manufacturers association in Detroit and other organizations for some years. These systems include the design of new engine processes, improved carburetor design and a catalytic or flame combustion of exhaust gas by means of an afterburner. The state of California has established performance requirements for the control of contaminants in exhaust of motor vehicles but no system has been improved for installation as yet. The Department of National Health and Welfare is keeping abreast of such developments.
A partial palliative has been found in the installation of a crankcase control device to prevent air pollution from engine blowby gas. This device is now manufactured for installation in the United States.
This is not good enough, Mr. Chairman, for a nation like Canada. We spend, in a federal way, over $400 million on a hospital program and yet we spent only $50,000 a year in the last eight years to protect our citizens from this menace. One of our own doctors in the department of health and welfare has this to say, as reported in this article:
Dr. Morris Katz, as air pollution consultant to the federal government, estimates that the minimum amount of money needed for air pollution research in Canada is $18 million a year, spread among federal, provincial and local organizations. "And that," he adds, "would be for a fairly moderate show."
The report I received from the minister indicates they have discovered a device to reduce or alleviate the injurious gases given off by automobiles. Why can we not examine these devices in Canada and estimate their value through our national research branch in conjunction with the Department of National Health and Welfare. If these devices are
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satisfactory, if they do the job of cleaning up our air, why can we not pass laws tc make it compulsory to instal them on every motor vehicle. I sincerely hope the minister and her department will take steps to increase the amount available for research in this very important national field.


Mr. Moore (Wetaskiwin):: I should like to get back now to the question of Indian hospitals. There has been a tendency lately to change over from the hospitals on a reserve to hospitals in adjoining cities and towns. The reason for this, of course, may be twofold. It is either a financial reason, or possibly because more facilities can be provided in the larger centres. Be that as it may, I should like to point out that there are other factors to be considered. Some reserves cover hundreds of square miles. Transportation is not always available on these reserves, especially when there are adverse weather conditions. These people may have automobiles, but they do not always work when the weather is cold or when it is raining to excess, or for other reasons. When the hospital is on the reserve, however, these people can sometimes reach the hospital in cases of emergency by using a team of horses. Some of them in certain areas still have horses. However, they could not be expected to take horses or tractors out on the highway.
I have in mind my own area in central Alberta, for example. I am sure there are similar situations elsewhere in Canada on the reserves. I refer specifically to the Indians at Hobbema. They have their own hospital. Most of them have told me personally that they were quite satisfied with it. I have never heard any of them say they were not. When a new hospital was built at the nearby city of Wetaskiwin, a third storey was added, ostensibly to take care of the Indian patients from Hobbema. The Indians have told me also in no uncertain terms that they prefer their own hospital. They do not mind my saying that they do not feel at home anywhere else. They say they are not in the same financial category as other patients in a hospital, and therefore they are embarrassed by the fact they are not as well dressed as other visitors to the hospital. It is sometimes quite a strain on these people who come from so far, as they also feel they are not well dressed.
At present the hospital at Hobbema, the one that used to serve the Indian population, is being operated as a health clinic for less serious cases. Perhaps this is meant to be on a temporary basis and I would strongly urge that, at least, this would be continued.

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There is a tendency on the part of government to forget that Indians are citizens of this country. In fact they were the first citizens of this country. Let us remember that in 1962 they were given the power to vote, and thereby were recognized as citizens. They should be treated as such and their wishes in this and other matters should be considered.
Something else that ties in with this is the matter of education. How many doctors and graduate nurses have the Indians provided for their own hospitals or, for that matter, teachers for their own schools? I know that conditions vary in different reserves in different parts of Canada, but from my own experience I know there have been very few if any in some cases. Surely there are enough intelligent young people who could qualify? The fault must lie in the facilities for education on the reserves, or at least in the lack of incentive for the young people to take advantage of the available facilities.
Speaking of facilities, there were over 600, now possibly over 700 pupils going to the school on the Hobbema reserve, where there is no auditorium. This has been brought to the attention of some of the government departments and they have promised to provide an auditorium. They realized there was a need for it and it was to be provided as soon as possible. However the holidays are almost over this summer, and I do not believe a start has been made on it yet. If our own children were attending a school containing over 600 pupils it would have to be a city school or a large consolidated school, but would we expect them to attend such a school which had no auditorium or gymnasium, or anything of that kind?
In this school there is not even a place for the pupils to have their lunch. Certainly there is the great outdoors, but the great outdoors in this particular area can become very cold, windy and stormy at different times of the year. As a matter of fact, I have seen it as low as 58 degrees below zero in that area.
If the Indians are going to have to live and compete in our society, and it is now evident that they are, it is time that we found some way to prepare them for it. At least some technical training should be provided which would help them get a job and earn a living. Giving them handouts is not enough. They must be fitted to compete in our society.
Since most of us know what conditions are like on many of the reserves we are forced to admit that we have failed, or at least that we have not been too successful in our administration of Indian affairs. When I say this, I

am not trying to place the blame on any particular party, government or department. It is something of long standing and it is time something was done about it. Indeed, it is high time that we did some investigating of Indian problems and came up with some new and realistic ideas.
In conclusion I would like to refer to a statement by my colleague from Portage-Neepawa who said there was poverty in this country. I agree there is. Anyone who knows anything about these reserves would know there is still poverty in this country.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: Mr. Chairman, there seems to be some annoyance on the government side of the chamber that the opposition are in pretty good physical condition, have the necessary stamina, and that threats of no holidays or an election have not dissuaded us from dealing with the country's business very soundly and properly, as it should be dealt with. That annoyance was very evident when they sat on their hands when the hon. member for Winnipeg North raised a question with you, sir, about the organized interference with the speakers. Apparently they approved of this type of conduct in the chamber.
One is reminded of the fact that in the days when they were in opposition they had very little concern for the business of the country. They spent their time delaying, speaking endlessly, solely for the purpose of upsetting the government in order to get back to power. They had one objective: power. The President of the Privy Council, who lectured us earlier this evening, got on his feet without being recognized by you, sir, and lectured us about conduct in this chamber. I think we are good friends and he knows I do not say this with any animosity, but this was a fact, and I watched it very closely. When people are inclined to lecture others they should be very careful that they are within the rules themselves.
I make no apology for taking part in this debate, or for the time that has been spent on interim supply. On going over the records I notice that in December, 1962, when the government of that day was asking only for $330 million the opposition took four full days to deal with interim supply. Because of the chaotic and almost unorganized efforts of the government in conducting the business of the house we have not had any opportunity to review its spending programs. Only two departments have been dealt with, and one is in committee, so I think it perfectly proper, having regard to the huge budget and the

spending of the government, that the opposition use this opportunity to deal with the spending of departments and raise questions. Had the proper opportunity been given by bringing the estimates before the house, probably not as much time would be taken on interim supply as will now be the case with this debate.
The Department of National Health and Welfare is a huge department, and is becoming greater all the time. I would have thought that, having been brought back from the wilderness and given the spotlight on stage for a full day, the minister would have been quite happy, but she seems to be completely annoyed that this is the case. One can only conclude that constructive criticism and suggestions do not receive any great welcome from her, and that this government that was once thrown out of office for its attitude towards the public and parliament has still that same old attitude: The opposition be damned; we will do what we decide to do; comments, criticisms and suggestions mean nothing to us. However, in good faith and hoping this is not the case, I intend to speak tonight to fulfil an obligation I feel I have, in regard to one of the department's programs.
Serious questions have been raised, and it is evident there are important and very large problems facing the government and parliament in connection with matters of national health and welfare. Many of the problems which face the department today arise because in the past we have not paid sufficient attention to the youth of the country. I am proud of the fact that the former government introduced a program for physical fitness and amateur sport. I am sorry the hon. member for Norfolk is not in his place tonight. He and I are close personal friends of long standing because of our interest in the youth of Canada and in sport. I think, perhaps, he regrets some of the remarks he made about this program when he came to this house as a new member. The program was announced at the opening ceremonies of the hockey hall of fame in Toronto on August 26, 1961. At that time, my right hon. friend, who was then prime minister, conducted the official opening and in his speech that day he announced the proposed federal program. The member for Norfolk called it, in his maiden speech I believe it was, a phony program. He called it fraudulent. He said the prime minister had pulled it out of a hat. He said it had no substance and that the minister who was to administer it had a tiger by the tail. He
Interim Supply
made comments such as that. I had intended to answer him at the first opportunity, and I believe this is the first real opportunity I have had to deal properly with this subject. Speaking at this time on interim supply on this subject I am availing myself of precisely the same opportunity as he did, because he was speaking on interim supply when he made his observations in December 1962.
I think he made those comments unwittingly. In any event I do not believe, despite the fact that he made some very personal comments about the prime minister of that day, that he really intended to sink to that level of debate. I say this because the hon. member's interest in youth and sport is at least equal to my own, and I think my own has been of some substance and extent. First of all, the program was not one which was imposed by the federal government. It was developed after much thought. It was not drawn out of a hat. The announcement was made only after a great deal of careful consideration had been given to the question, after hearing representations from a large number of bodies concerned with fitness and amateur sport in this country. The purpose of the legislation was to indicate that the federal government would make available a certain number of dollars, in this case a maximum of $5 million a year. But it was laid down that the programs themselves must be developed by the people concerned, by the people interested. In my opinion this was a most democratic way of proceeding. To facilitate the development of these programs a council of 30 members was set up, and to this council were called representatives of those interested in the fields of fitness, recreation and amateur sport. I believe, in the light of some two years experience, it has been proved that this was a proper set-up. As to the statement that this program was a tiger by the tail, and that it would be full of politics, I think experience has shown that this criticism also was false.
The 30 people who were initially chosen to compose this body were people called from throughout Canada to represent the areas of recreation, amateur sport and physical fitness. They were men who had great experience and very good qualifications; they had given voluntarily of their own time over many years. I cannot go over the whole list of the first 30 people who were appointed by the government of that day, but I do want to pay my tribute to two of them in particular who come from my own province of Satskatch-ewan. Those I refer to are Scotty Melville,

Interim Supply
who then was the sports editor of the Regina Leader-Post and Wally Stinson-I believe that is the name; I may be corrected, but I think that is right. Scotty Melville had given great service to a number of sporting bodies for many years. He had been, for example, secretary of the Saskatchewan amateur hockey association, and he was considered one of the best, and most knowledgeable sports writers in Canada. Today I am proud to congratulate Scotty Melville on being the editor of that good newspaper-I say this even though it is nominally a Liberal paper; my relations with it have always been excellent and I know they will continue to be that way. With the reservation that there is a little politics, perhaps, I would say the paper does a fine job of reporting.
The other member of the council from Saskatchewan, was, as I said, Wally Stinson. He had served the provincial government in the department of education as director of the recreation and amateur sport program. I might point out that the government of Saskatchewan was active in this field years before the federal government developed a program in this regard. It was a fine program and I hope it is still being continued at the same high level. Indeed, I hope that with the additional help the federal government has been able to provide, it has been extended. It was organized on a high school district basis and there were capable men in each district looking after the program in the schools and providing instruction in hockey, baseball, basketball, conducting clinics for the advancement of sporting skills and encouraging the activities of sporting bodies. The two men I have mentioned served well. I know Mr. Melville had to quit voluntarily. I do not know the circumstances of Mr. Stinson's departure. However I hope that he, too, retired voluntarily. Indeed, I would be very critical of the government if he had been removed and not reappointed for political reasons.
So I pay my tribute to the original members of this council, and now I must commend the minister and the government because as far as I know the new appointments which have been made appear to be good, experienced men who are equally capable and who are likely to serve well. I must say, though, that I regret there are so many new faces on the council. I say this because continuity is needed when carrying forward a program such as this, especially in the initial stages. I think perhaps there will be some continuity though, because of the members who remain, and that

the program will be carried on and developed in a satisfactory manner.
The program began, one might say, with no program at all. However within a year of the grant being made, two meetings had been held, guidelines had been set-out and some proposals had been received. In that year recommendations were made to the minister-the government still held the purse strings-which resulted in the expenditure of $246,000 or something of that order. Grants were made to the provinces for organization and development purposes, and I note that grants are being made on the basis of $35,000 to each province plus a further amount based on population. I think that is good.
Now we do not have any great report on this program. I have the initial statement and I believe I have all the statements which have been made. We do have a report on the act dealing with fitness and amateur sport for the fiscal year 1962-63 which outlines what has been going on and what the developments were, the grants and scholarships which were made available, and so on. It will of course take time, but I believe we are going to develop the leaders we need to make this program a real success-the success it must be if we are properly to meet the requirements of our youth today.
There was great variety about these grants. My understanding is that they were all made on the recommendation of the council. I think it would be interesting to go over them quickly. They were made to the amateur athletic union of Canada, the boys club of Canada, the Calgary Olympic development association, the Canadian amateur basketball association, the Canadian amateur bobsleigh association, the Canadian amateur hockey association, the Canadian amateur ski association, the Canadian amateur speedskating association, the Canadian amateur swimming association, the Canadian association of amateur oarsmen, the Canadian association for health, physical education and recreation, the Canadian badminton association, the Canadian canoe association, the Canadian cricket association, the Canadian field hockey association, the Canadian figure skating association, the Canadian intercollegiate athletic union, the Canadian lacrosse association and the Canadian national exhibition. I think that grant was well worth while.
Grants were also made to the Canadian Olympic association. I commend that grant and I hope that in the future it can be increased. The following also received grants: The Canadian roller skating association, the

Canadian ski patrol system, the Canadian snowshoers union, the Canadian sports advisory council, the Canadian table tennis association, the Canadian volleyball association, the Canadian wheelmen's association, the Canadian wildlife federation, the Canadian yachting association, the Canadian youth hostels association, the national council of Y.M.C.A.'s of Canada and the Young Women's Christian Association of Canada.
That is a pretty formidable list of grants to a group of very capable, well organized and dedicated organizations in Canada. Over the years they have had many problems. In the field of international activity Canada has always been a poor sister, and these organizations have had real problems in conducting themselves in international competition. Therefore I heartily approve these grants and the development of this program. In the recent report of the department-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: Don't become impatient. I think you are here equally as I am to look after the business of this country. I have not been critical of any-


Mr. Cote (Longueuil):: What a joke.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: "What a joker" might be a better expression to use.


Joseph Julien Jean-Pierre Côté: I did not say "joker"; I said "joke".


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: I said "joker"; that is my reply to the hon. gentleman. The annual report of the department for March 31, 1963, points out very briefly the act and how it is operated. It tells us how the aid is channelled:
Federal aid under the act is channelled through three main streams. The first is through grants to the provinces for development at the community level. The second is through direct assistance for nationally organized agencies, either to assist national or international competition and for development purposes, and for fellowships and scholarships, research, information services and the like. A third channel is direct services provided through the department, the costs of which are a charge against departmental appropriations and not those provided for under the act.
I believe that in all these channels, or at least the two main ones, the minister accepts the advice, program and recommendations of that council. In this way I am sure politics will not enter into the question. Politics did not enter into the question under our regime, and I know it will not enter into it under the minister's. I think this speaks well for the future of the program. I wanted to ask
Interim Supply
the minister what she sees as the future of this program. I noticed in some literature I received that this year it is hoped the money spent on the program will approach $3 million. I think this is commendable because it indicates the very vast development of the program. You do not start from scratch, especially when you are asking the people concerned to develop the program through the channels we have, and get to the maximum sum quickly. I believe we can commend this government and the previous government on the fact that the moneys that have been appropriated by parliament are being properly and sensibly used.
I want to bring to the minister's attention- I am sorry the Minister of Transport is not here-the problem of the soaring association of Canada, because I really do not know in what position this poor organization lies. They are under the control of the Department of Transport because they operate in the air; but they receive no recognition from the Department of Transport similar to that received by flying clubs. They receive no assistance whatsoever. They take part in international competition; they conduct Canadian championships-and yet they get no recognition whatsoever. The sport is rather expensive to indulge in on an individual basis. Perhaps through a club it is not so expensive. But I believe this is an important association to Canadian life, Canadian recreation, the development of Canadian air services, and in many other fields.
I would like to remind the committee that the great German luftwaffe was brought about through pilots being trained in gliders. The information soaring people have obtained through their experience of the air currents in the mountains, and so on, has made our air channels over the mountains much safer. I think it would be a shame if this organization, comprising about 1,000 members in Canada today-and I understand 25 per cent of them are 25 years of age and under, and this is a sizeable number of young people-were not given some assistance, especially in regard to international competition. There is no source of government funds for them. They have competed in international championships in the last few years in Poland.
I do not know whether I am getting over to the minister or not, but anyway I will continue. Last year the association competed in Brazil. Fifteen members of the association represented Canada in the championships in that country. Fifty per cent of the costs were paid by the Brazilian government, who

Interim Supply
looked after our team while they were in Brazil. I am proud to tell the committee that Canada had her greatest success there and finished ninth in team competition in that international event. Competitions are held every two years, and next year they will be held in Britain.
Canadian teams are even reduced to taking private transportation, although there have been seats on government transport going to and from the areas concerned. I know they have made representations to the council. The council has asked for help in this regard but the Department of Transport have said they are not a flying outfit, although they are controlled by regulation, and they should seek help elsewhere. I plead with the minister, if she cannot do anything, to make representations to her colleague the Minister of Transport, that this very worthy club should receive some consideration at least in the way of transportation to the scene of these competitions.
The competitions in Canada draw international figures. The present competitions are being held at Brampton, I believe, this week. A year or so ago they were held at Hawkes-bury. The only recognition they received from the government was a visit from the deputy minister of transport, I believe it was, for part of an hour that day. The member of parliament for the area did not even turn up, and they received no assistance whatsoever. Yet a team from Poland was there with two gliders, and there were two teams there from the United States.
I think it is a sad commentary that our Canadian people who are putting in all this effort themselves, at their own expense, should not receive some assistance. It is just impossible for them to make the showing they should make. I do not know whether you would call it sport or a motorless flying club, but at least they should be given grants such as I have outlined as having been authorized. I think they would qualify for at least $3,000 or $4,000. This would provide them with at least the inspiration to go out and make a real showing for Canada. I hope I have dealt fairly with the situation as I see it.
I have only one other comment to make. This program was never meant to bring about the building of great sports palaces throughout Canada, but was intended to reach the other sources of training, provide instructors, and so on. However, we do need these facilities. We all know that in the iron curtain countries the state make this provision, but in a democ-

racy like Canada we do not build these places at the cost of lives, hunger and starvation, or put them wherever the dictator behind the iron curtain wishes to put them in his own country, setting up a fund for the purpose. Our program is to provide for development and has to come from the people for the people. There has been considerable government assistance to date. Communities have developed projects through the winter works program, and I understand it is rumoured that there will be considerable change brought about in the winter works program of the government in future.
The changes I have heard mooted will cut out any assistance to projects of this type, and this just at the time when the program is getting going and assistance will be needed more than ever. The encouragement given to this program through the development of projects under the winter works program is going to be cut off, or so it is rumoured. I do not know whether that is so, but I do want to tell the government that if that is the case there will be much criticism and great pressure brought to bear. There must be some development of facilities of this kind if the program is to be a success. If the rumour is correct then I would urge the minister to persuade his cabinet colleagues to take a long look at what could be done to assist communities who have shown a desire to do their share and provide the facilities needed to make this whole program a real success, and perhaps remove many of the problems which occur in later years through the neglect of our youth.


Mrs. Casselman:: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Arza Clair Casselman: Mr. Chairman, I thank the house for that warmth.
I do not wish to take up too much time, in case there are others-and I know there are-who would like to speak. I think it is only fair at the beginning of my remarks to state that I feel the minister and her department deserve more in the way of commendation than criticism for their efforts in one of the most difficult departments of our whole government area. Everyone should be, purely as a matter of common sense, vitally interested in everything to do with health. Health and welfare are almost inextricably inter-related with the well-being of all our citizens and also with the many economic implications of welfare. This department is so large and each branch is so important that we could make good arguments and pleas for improved facili-

ties and increased expenditures tor every single branch. There are also the many additional pressures, such as the emotional pleas for and sympathies aroused by the disabled, pension problems, cancer, research needs and the miseries, tangible and intangible, of mental health problems. The difficulty would seem to be to find an efficient principle by which to tackle these inter-related problems.
It is natural that the picture should be rapidly changing because new discoveries in diagnosis, cures and preventions have been made. The size of the subject, the constant changes, the emotionalism involved and our limited budget combine to make health and welfare an area demanding the most sane, sympathetic and businesslike thinking. It is an area particularly open to the "plug the dike" technique which is unavoidable, due to the emergency quality of many of the needs. It is also open to inequalities due to very easily aroused sympathies. I think particularly of problems like thalidomide and the tragedies involved therein. However there is no way of evaluating human tragedy and it could well be argued by many suffering from other incapacities that their needs for help were just as great.
In order that the cost of solving problems does not continue to increase and increase into infinity, and lie as a heavy burden upon our society, I personally should like to see a stronger and more concerted effort made from every possible preventive angle. I remember seven or eight years ago I had occasion to thank one of the greatest surgeons in Canada, indeed probably one of the greatest in the world, for what seemed to me to be a miracle of surgery. He mentioned that this was a mechanical process which could be learned, and to him his greatest interest in medicine was in the improvement of prevention. He felt the need for a very great increase in research in all directions. These research improvements would, he felt, automatically improve the problems of hospitalization, surgery, and all the other facilities which have grown so rapidly with such great credit to our medical society.
Those who have to do with animals, either in agriculture or as pets, spend a great deal of time studying dietary problems, how to improve their pets' good looks or high spirits, their stamina, speed, weight, etc. Therefore it seems slightly ridiculous that these people spend very little effort, sometimes none at all, on their own eating habits and those of their families. They are also concerned for the exercise of their pets and livestock. By the
Interim Supply
same token a very small percentage of our population gives any thought to its own personal exercise and that of their families, with resultant good health.
I have been greatly interested right from the beginning in the fitness and sports program, and I hope that the government will continue to give increased leadership in this direction. I have urged this before and I will continue to do so. It seems to me to be an endlessly hopeful avenue along which we can travel toward better physical health, which will also improve automatically our mental health and the proper use of increasing leisure time which has been derived from automation.
We heard today from the hon. member for Saskatoon one of the best maiden speeches ever made in this house. It was knowledgeable and helpful, and as the hon. member for Northwest Territories said in following, it could well be used as a good example for all members of parliament. It occurred to me as I listened to the facts of and the need for mental health that a heavy responsibility of leadership lies on all of us who are in a position to see the weaknesses in our society. The hon. member for Saskatoon mentioned that for years the tragedy of this particular kind of illness was hidden and neglected. She quite aptly mentioned segregation, which we all have sad reason to recognize as a negative approach to the solution of any problem.
Although we have made great strides in recognizing new techniques, the usefulness of treatment and the extent of mental illness, there is still a long way to go. We must come to grips with the facts, disturbing and frightening as they are, of the numbers of people suffering from this type of illness. I agree with this and heartily urge that the recommendations of the hon. member for Saskatoon be given sympathetic consideration. It seems to me that the area of preventive approaches is preperly recognized in her suggestion of increasing the number of public health and social workers to help people at a time when they need help. We all see cases where people could be helped in the beginning stages of physical or mental illness and so very often the disease goes on to the fatal stage. We have become educated to check-ups for tuberculosis, cancer, blood, etc., and we can and should become educated to positive, complete good health and the routine needed to maintain this throughout a lifetime.
It seems a great pity if only young people are carefully nurtured. Now there is general, careful feeding of infants, extra vitamins and proper fresh air. Attention to

Interim Supply
health continues in many families through the teens. However there is a gradual falling off of health care when people assume the responsibilities of a home and a job, just at the very time when positive good health is so seriously needed.
Before tragedy cut short the so productive life of the late President Kennedy, we had one of the greatest examples of leadership, of someone showing how to learn to live with a physical problem. At long last we saw the leaders of a democratic nation making glowing good health fashionable.
It seems to me we are not quite clear in our definition of a standard of living. It may be a high standard of accumulation to have a large bank account, a lot of property and a lot of gadgets, but surely a high standard of living actually means to live in a healthy, vibrant participating way. Much time and energy has gone into the study of the health of Canadians. The Hall commission among other preventive recommendations places a carefully planned dental program for children high on the list of priorities. The shortage of dental personnel is pointed out and how all possible means must be followed to overcome this weakness in our general health facilities. It is well known how general health deteriorates from lack of proper dental care.
The royal commission on health services specifically recommends that the solution is fluoridation, a recognized preventive of tooth decay. This technique has now been studied for over 30 years and from the best of scientific observation it must be recognized that savings in health and the cost of tooth care can be made by this means. Surely it is not sensible to ignore a scientific discovery so heavily recommended for the good of our society. I urge the government to give the needed leadership.


Mr. Dupuis:: Mr. Chairman, I should not want to prolong the debate, but I read in today's edition of the Montreal Star that the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas (Mrs. Cas-selman) is getting married on Thursday, next August 7.
I wish to congratulate her and I wonder if I might suggest to her Conservative colleagues that since August 7 will be a Thursday and a day of sitting of the house, they might act in such a way that the session would be over by that time so that they could all attend the wedding. They should also make it possible for her to fly a fine new Canadian flag on that morning of August 7.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the minister a question? Does he want to be invited to the wedding?


Yvon Dupuis: Mr. Chairman, I would be most happy to be invited, but I hope the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas will not spoil her wedding day by inviting the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I am sure she does not share your views.


James Ernest Pascoe: Mr. Chairman, we have had a very long and interesting day and I wonder whether I might call it 10.30.


Some hon. Members:: No.


James Ernest Pascoe: I have a speech ready and I will have to cut it short, but there are two or three things I want to bring out if I can. Other speakers have pointed out the government's delay in presenting the spending estimates of the various departments for study in committee of supply. This is an omission to which special attention should again be drawn because scrutiny and questioning of government spending is one of the important functions of parliament. In fact, it is the main responsibility of parliament.
That is why we have spent today on the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare. I am sorry the minister has left the chamber because I have one or two things I want to bring to her attention. I hope I will have another opportunity to do so.
One particular point I want to emphasize is referred to in the press release issued by the royal commission on health services. I refer to their 24th recommendation which deals with home care and in which they say:
In the interests of patients and of costs, the commission recommends that full scale programs of either hospital or community based home care be launched in every urban centre of 10,000 population and over. Programs of this nature would provide the patient and physician with a range of services in the home which in some cases could make hospitalization unnecessary, while in other cases it could facilitate early discharge from hospital.
Two years ago in my own city of Moose Jaw a home care program was started and it has proved to be very successful. In the health grants for 1963-64 I notice that the federal government has contributed $10,742 toward the program of home care which was started by the medical society in Moose Jaw. The provincial government contributes an equal amount, so it is a $20,000 program.

There is one more point I want to bring out. It has to do with the Queen Elizabeth II Canadian fund to aid in research on the diseases of children. As hon. members know this was started by the previous government in 1959 to provide money for research into children's diseases. I was surprised to note that since the establishment of the fund only $6,000 has been contributed to the fund by way of private donations. When the fund was established the idea was that donations would be received from the public and I think a greater effort should be made to secure such donations. I know this does not come directly under the minister, but I notice that Dr. G. D. W. Cameron, deputy minister of national health, is on the board of trustees.
What made me bring up this point is that some people from the maritimes were visiting me and they were talking about a family with two children who are suffering from cystic fibrosis. They were trying to organize a voluntary committee to raise money to conduct research into this very serious disease. If the minister had been here I would have drawn her attention to this matter and requested her to put some pressure on the fund to assist this voluntary committee which
Business of the House
wishes to raise money for the study of cystic fibrosis.
May I call it 10.30, Mr. Chairman?


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Some hon. Members:: Ten thirty.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the business of the house may I ask the acting house leader if he would persuade some of his colleagues to assist in the discussion of interim supply by giving an account of the vast expenditure of money for which the government is asking.


An hon. Member:: To help the filibuster and make you look good?
The Aciing Speaker (Mr. Batten): There
being no questions under provisional standing order 3 9A, pursuant to special order passed on June 26, this house stands adjourned until two o'clock tomorrow afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
It being 30 minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to special order.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, July 29, 1964