1964-06-08

[Stage Direction]
Mr. C. R. Granger (Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador) presented the second report of the standing committee on marine and fisheries, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

Hon. Paul Martin (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the house will be pleased to learn that in response to a request that Canada nominate a candidate for the post of deputy secretary general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the Canadian government has agreed to release Mr. James A. Roberts, deputy minister of trade and commerce for this important assignment.
This appointment is being announced today in Paris by Mr. Stikker, the secretary general of NATO, after consultations with the secretary general-designate, Signor Manlio Brosio. Mr. Roberts will take up his new duties with NATO on September 1 of this year. 1 am confident that he will perform them with the same efficiency and distinction that have been characteristic of the manner in which he has discharged his responsibilities throughout his tenure of high public office in Canada.



CROP INSURANCE ACT


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Crop Insurance Act to authorize the governor in council to enter into agreements for the purpose of establishing a crop reinsurance program to supplement provincial crop insurance plans; to provide for the establishment in the consolidated revenue fund of a special account, to be known as the crop reinsurance fund, to which shall,he credited amounts paid by a province under
a crop reinsurance agreement and out of which shall be paid amounts required for the payment of reinsurance claims; to authorize advances from time to time from the consolidated revenue fund by way of non-interest bearing loans to the crop reinsurance fund; and to authorize the rebate, to grain growers whose grain is grown on insured lands, of sums paid by way of levy under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Howard: What action, in detail, has been taken with respect to each of the following recommendations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs:
"(a) Indian affairs should be the subject of a dominion-provincial conference in order that such matters may be transferred to provincial jurisdiction as may be mutually acceptable to the Indian people, provincial and federal authorities.
(b)	Another special joint committee of the Senate and House of Commons should be appointed within a period of seven years to review Indian affairs.
(c)	A program of research into the economic, cultural and social concepts of the Indian people should be undertaken in conjunction with the provinces and universities.
(d)	Community planning and development studies should be continued.'1?


Mr. Badanai:: (a) The administration of Indian affairs was on the agenda of the federal-provincial conference held in Ottawa in November, 1963. It was agreed that a federal-provincial ministerial conference on Indian affairs be convened in 1964. Although the month of May was suggested as the most suitable time, it was not possible to complete the planning in time. However, planning is continuing and the conference will be held later in the year.
(b)	No action is being taken to recommend another special committee of the Senate and House of Commons to review Indian affairs at this time as the seven year period referred to in this recommendation will not be reached until 1968. The establishing of such a joint committee will be a matter for parliament to decide.
(c)	A national Indian research project to assess the participation by Indians in the social and economic life of the country is being undertaken by Dr. H. B. Hawthorn of

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the University of British Columbia as director and Dr. Adelard Tremblay of Laval University as associate director. The research will cover four major areas concerning Indians: economic development; advancement in education; responsibilities that exist at various government levels; and band councils and the development of self government. It is expected that the research project will be completed in 1966.
(d)	Increasing attention has been given to community planning and development studies in recent years. An economic development study for the Blood Indian reserve has been carried out. This includes demographic analyses, studies on mineral resources, soils, range, agriculture, forestry, etc. Studies for the economic development of Indians in the Patricia district of Ontario have been carried out in collaboration with the provincial department of lands and forests. A preliminary inventory of Indian reserve resources is now in progress.


WORLD FAIR CAR RENTALS
[Stage Direction]
Question No. 873
Mr. Bell:: Is it the policy of the world fair Canadian corporation for the 1967 world exhibition to use car rental service and, if so, each day for the period April 12 to 18, 1964, how many vehicles were hired and from what service?
Answer: For the period of April 12 to 18, 1964, arrangements to hire one vehicle had to be cancelled subsequently and no vehicles were hired in addition to those that are presently rented on a permanent basis by the corporation.


APPOINTMENT OF PILOTS, PUGWASH, N.S.
Mr. Coates: 1.	What are the names, residences, ages, and the experience, of the two new pilots appointed by the Pugwash pilotage authority?
2.	What is the name of the examiner who approved the appointment of the pilots in question, and what are his qualifications?


Mr. Pickersgill:: 1. Mr. Harold Allen, Pugwash, age 36, appointed pilot, one season experience as apprentice pilot. Mr. Otis Allen, Pugwash, age 30, appointed apprentice pilot, no experience.
2.	Mr. Harold Allen was appointed pilot by the Pugwash pilotage commission in March 1964 on the recommendation of past pilot and pilot master H. E. Vanember. Mr. Otis Allen was recommended as apprentice pilot by the Pugwash pilotage commission.


RAIL INSTALLATIONS, PIER &quot;c&quot;, PICTOU, N.S.
Mr. MacEwan: Is it the intention of the Canadian National Railways and/or the Department of Transport to carry out rail installations on other than the south side of pier "C" at Pictou, Nova Scotia?
[Mr. Badanai.l


John Whitney Pickersgill: The management of Canadian National Railways advises that it is not the intention of the company to carry out rail installations on other than the south side of pier "C" at Pictou, N.S.


SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN DAM
Mr. Francis: 1.	On what date was the decision taken to build the South Saskatchewan dam?
2.	What was the financial arrangement between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Saskatchewan?
3.	What is the total value in dollars of contracts that have been let on this project to date?
4.	What is the anticipated total cost of the project to each government?
5.	What will be the installed capacity of power in the power section, and what will be the cost per kilowatt of installed capacity?
6.	Did the provincial government undertake to supply and service 50,000 acres of farmland for irrigation?
7.	Did the government of Saskatchewan in 1963 indicate it was no longer interested in supplying the acreage referred to in question 6 and, if so, what reasons did it offer for this decision?
8.	If the irrigation project does not proceed, what advantages will accrue from the building of the dam other than power production?
9.	Have there been any technical difficulties in the construction of the dam?
10.	What is the anticipated annual interest and amortization cost of this project?
11.	What plans has the government to meet the costs enumerated in question 10 above?


Harry William Hays: 1. The agreement between Saskatchewan and Canada was completed on July 25, 1958.
2.	The cost sharing arrangement is as follows:
(1)	By Saskatchewan: (a) 25 per cent of the cost of the reservoir with the provision that this amount is limited to $25,000,000; (b) all costs associated with the irrigation development, recreational development and powerhouse development, except that Canada pays 25 per cent of the construction costs for installing the penstocks.
(2)	By Canada: (a) 75 per cent of the cost of constructing the reservoir for all costs up to $100,000,000; (b) all costs of constructing the reservoir in excess of $100,000,000. (c) 25 per cent of the cost of construction of the penstocks; (d) the cost of all engineering, administrative and legal services related to the construction of the reservoir.
3.	Total value of contracts awarded to March 31, 1964, $95,211,909.37.
4.	Current estimated cost; cost to Canada, reservoir and penstocks, $86,000,000.
Cost to Saskatchewan:
Reservoir	$ 25,000,000
Other developments:
Irrigation $45,000,000
Power $30,000,000
Recreation $15,000,000	$ 90,000,000
Total	$115,000,000

5.	Initial installed capacity will be 187.5 megawatts. The cost of this installation will be $132.00 per kilowatt. This figure includes 100 per cent of the cost of penstocks, power plant, and engineering, but does not include any costs of construction of the dam.
6.	Yes.
7.	There has been no indication from the government of Saskatchewan that it will not be proceeding with the irrigation development.
8.	Project benefits other than irrigation and power:
(1)	Urban and industrial water supplies: the availability of water directly from the reservoir and from the Qu'Appelle river diversion will assure domestic and industrial supplies for many towns and cities in southern Saskatchewan.
(2)	River regulations: The storage provided in the reservoir and the associated river control will greatly increase power benefits downstream at all present and future sites.
(3)	Recreation:	The reservoir will be
within 100 miles of 400,000 Saskatchewan people and lies in the area which is short of water for recreational purposes.
(4)	Interbasin diversions: In the event of large scale interbasin diversions in the future, the South Saskatchewan river reservoir will become the hub of a major water supply system for storage and redistribution to water short areas in southern Saskatchewan and Manitoba.
9.	There have been technical difficulties encountered in the construction of the tunnels as well as some parts of the embankment which in some cases have resulted in delays in the work schedule.
10 and 11. The cost of this project is not being amortized. Canada's share of the cost is considered to be in the form of a direct contribution for agricultural rehabilitation and development purposes.
Note: Information in regard to the provincial program and cost has been provided by the South Saskatchewan river development commission of the province of Saskatchewan and the Saskatchewan Power Corporation.


DEFENCE AND RESEARCH EXPENDITURES, B.C.
Mr. Basford: 1.	For the fiscal years 1962-63,	1963-64, what
grants in aid of research were made by the defence research board within the province of British Columbia and, to whom, in what amounts, and for what projects?
2.	For the fiscal years 1962-63, 1963-64, what expenditures were made within the province of British Columbia, under the development sharing assistance program of the Department of Defence Production and, to whom, in what amounts, and for what projects were such expenditures made?
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3.	For the fiscal years 1962-63, 1963-64, what contracts were let for production within British Columbia of military equipment and material under the auspices of the Canada-United States defence development and production sharing program, and with whom were such contracts made, the value thereof, and what was the equipment and material to be produced or supplied thereunder?


Mr. Lamonlagne:: In so far as the Department of National Defence is concerned.
1.	1962-63, $187,435; 1963-64, $190,005.
The amounts, projects and other details
relating to these grants are classified military information.
In so far as the Department of Defence Production is concerned.
2.	None.
3.	Companies within British Columbia received contracts for military equipment and material under the auspices of the Canada-U.S. defence development and production sharing program amounting to $1,997,915 for the fiscal year 1962-63 and $1,327,426 for the fiscal year 1963-64. Details of contracts placed by the U.S. military services, or subcontracts thereunder, are provided to the Canadian government on a confidential basis as they have been awarded in competition with U.S. firms, paid for by the U.S. military departments and do not involve the payment of Canadian government funds.


* URANIUM STOCKPILING IN BANCROFT AREA
Mr. Lamb: 
Mr. Pepin:: The answer is no.


PETITIONS RESPECTING CATV
Mr. McBain: 1.	How many letters, petitions, telegrams, etc., with total number of signatures, have been received by the Prime Minister and/or the Minister of Transport from viewers of CATV protesting the imposition of any discriminatory regulations on such service?
2.	On what date will the government set up a special committee on broadcasting to which the matter of CATV service might be referred?


Maurice Lamontagne: 1. Number of letters, petitions, telegrams, etc., 1,719; total number of signatures, 2,155.
2. As indicated in a reply to a question in the house on May 25, 1964, the government does not propose the establishment of a special committee on broadcasting during the present session. (Hansard, p. 3522).


TRAIN SERVICE FROM NORTH TO MONTREAL
Mr. Laprise: In order to improve travel services, is it intended to shorten the time required for the rail trip between Cochrane and Montreal, and between

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Rouyn-Noranda and Montreal and, if so, will the change allow travellers to make these trips, In either direction, at night?

Answer:	The management of Canadian
National Railways advises as follows:
The design of train schedules, of necessity, must also take into account the requirements of mail and express. As there is insufficient traffic volume to justify separate services for these needs in this particular area, no change in schedules is contemplated at the present time.


ABANDONMENT OF C.N.R. LINE, FREDERICTON-CENTREVILLE, N.B.
Mr. MacRae: X. Have any surveys been made by Canadian National Railways concerning their line between Fredericton and Centreville, New Brunswick, with a view to requesting abandonment of said line and, if so, what was the result of such survey?
2.	Is it the intention of Canadian National Railways to seek permission to abandon the Canadian National Railway line between Fredericton and Centreville, New Brunswick?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The management of Canadian National Railways advises as follows:
1 and 2. It is management's understanding that present plans for construction of the Mactaquac power development call for flooding of a portion of this line. This matter is the subject of negotiations between the parties involved.


LAND EXPROPRIATIONS, NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION, OTTAWA
Mr. Richard: Does the national capital commission plan to expropriate property in the New Edinburgh area of the city of Ottawa subsequent to the forthcoming removal of the C.P.R. spur line between Beechwood avenue and Sussex drive and in connection with the proposed extension of the N.C.C. driveway along the Rideau river and, if so, what properties are involved and how soon after the track removal would expropriation notices be sent out to the property owners involved?
Answer: The national capital commission has no plans at present to expropriate property in the New Edinburgh area of the city of Ottawa subsequent to the removal of the C.P.R. spur line between Beechwood avenue and Sussex drive.


AIR POLLUTION RESEARCH
Mr. Howe (Wellingion-: Huron):
1.	Is the Department of National Health and Welfare conducting a program of research on air pollution and, if so, what have been the findings of this program as to its cause in connection with (a) the motor car, the truck and the bus (b) industrial and commercial enterprise (c) nuclear fall-out?
2.	Have any conclusions been arrived at as to methods of control?
3.	How much has this program cost to date?
[Mr. Laprise.l


Miss LaMarsh:: 1. Yes.
(a)	Motor car. The principal cause of air pollution from the motor car is the emission of unburned fuel or hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, sulphur dioxide, organic compounds such as aldehydes, acids, alcohols, esters, phenols, carcinogens and others, smoke and particulate matter, including lead.
Truck and bus. Similar to above for those operating on gasoline. Diesel engines produce much lower or negligible concentrations of carbon monoxide for all operating conditions; except acceleration or other heavy load conditions. However diesel emissions of hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen, expressed in lbs. per hour, are greater in all cases than the values for gasoline engines. Odour and irritation of diesel exhaust are due principally to the content of aldehydes.
(b)	Industrial and commercial enterprises. Causes of air pollution from this source are many and varied, depending upon the nature of the enterprise. Combustion products of solid fuels may pollute the air with smoke, fly ash up to 10 per cent of the fuel used, sulphur oxides, oxides of nitrogen, hydrocarbons, organic acids and aldehydes and many other products. Liquid fuels in combustion contribute very much less ash, but similar quantities of sulphur oxides, depending upon the sulphur content of the fuel, and products similar to those mentioned above. Gaseous fuels contain no ash or sulphur and produce the least quantity of contaminants during combustion.
Some of the major contaminants from industrial enterprises are sulphur dioxide from smelting of sulphide concentrates; odorous sulphur compounds from pulp and paper mills; fluorides from aluminium defining and phosphate fertilizer production; sulphur dioxide, other odorous sulphur compounds, hydrocarbons and catalyst dust from oil refining; arsenic from roasting of arsenical gold ores; oxides of nitrogen and ammonia from manufacture of nitric acid and nitration products; chlorine from electrolysis of salt; lead from battery plants and smelters; zinc from metallurgical plants; iron oxide dust and sulphur dioxide from iron and steel manufacturing; dust from cement manufacture and other crushing, grinding and sintering or roasting operations. Almost every industrial process gives rise to air contamination of one form or another.
(c)	Nuclear fall-out. As part of its comprehensive radioactive fall-out study program, the Department of National Health and Welfare has, with the co-operation of the meteorological services branch of the Department of Transport, established a program

of air and precipitation sampling and analysis for radioactive fall-out. A network of 24 sampling stations provides the Department of National Health and Welfare with: (a) 24 hour air filter samples, daily; (b) accumulated rainfall and snowfall samples, monthly. These samples are analysed for total fall-out activity and the precipitation samples are further analyzed for strontium 89, strontium 90 and caesium 137. Results are published monthly in Data from Radiation Protection Programs (a copy of the latest issue of which was tabled in the house on May 20). Fall-out levels at any station or any part of the country are governed by nuclear weapons testing programs and by meteorological conditions, they are not known to contribute to air pollution in the sense that motor cars and industrial and commercial enterprises do.
2.	(a) Methods of control for motor vehicles. Intensive studies on various control systems have been under way in the United States by the public health service, the state of California, the automobile manufacturers association in Detroit and other organizations for some years. These systems include the design of new engine processes, improved carburetor design and catalytic or flame combustion of exhaust gas by means of an afterburner. The state of California has established performance requirements for the control of contaminants in exhaust of motor vehicles but no system has been approved for installation as yet. The Department of National Health and Welfare is keeping abreast of such developments.
A partial palliative has been found in the installation of a crankcase control device to prevent air pollution from engine blowby gas. This device is now manufactured for installation in the United States.
(b) Control methods for industrial and commercial enterprises. Remedial measures and control systems have been designed for the collection of dusts or mists and the absorption of many gaseous contaminants. Solid or liquid particulates may be removed from stack gases by electrostatic precipitation, venturi or other scrubbers, cyclone collectors, fibrous filters or sonic agglomeration. Sulphur dioxide from smelting and sintering operations may be converted to sulphuric acid and phosphate fertilizers. Fluorides may be removed by wet scrubbers. Odorous compounds and solvent vapours may be burned by catalytic combustion or removed by activated carbon. In some cases the recovered products can be returned to the process or converted economically to valuable by-products. However research is being conducted in many countries on the development of processes for the removal of sulphur dioxide,
20220-255J
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oxides of nitrogen and other contaminants occurring in low concentrations in flue gases, especially those from thermal power plants. The Department of National Health and Welfare is being kept informed regarding such developments.
(c) Control of nuclear fall-out in air can be effected by termination of atmospheric nuclear weapons testing.
3. The air pollution program was initiated in 1956 within the occupational health division of the Department of National Health and Welfare and has cost about $400,000 since that time. The program is closely integrated with air pollution control activities of provincial health departments.
The radioactive fall-out study program was initiated in 1959 within the radiation protection division of the Department of National Health and Welfare and has cost approximately $100,000 since that time.


FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT AT NORTHERN AIRPORTS
Mr. Rheaume: 1.	Is the firefighting equipment now available at each of the following airports adequate to meet safety requirements (a) Fort Smith (b) Yellowknife (c) Inuvik and, if not, what additional equipment is required at each of the above locations to bring them up to minimum standards?
?[DOT] What plans, if any, have been made to obtain this equipment and make it available?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. (a) Fort Smith, adequacy has been under review due to recent increases in air traffic, (b) Yellowknife, yes; (c) Inuvik yes.
2.	A new 400 gallon foam crash truck is being purchased in 1964-65 for Fort Smith.


LEUKEMIA
Mr. Monteith: As certain news reports may have raised false hopes in those suffering from leukemia would the Minister of National Health and Welfare issue a press release giving the department's views concerning the validity or otherwise of any possible cure for this dreadful disease which appears to have been claimed by a Mr. Naessens now visiting Canada?	s


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: The Department of National Health and Welfare is watching this situation very carefully and if and when it seems desirable to issue a statement on the subject the minister would consider doing so.


REVENUE AND OPERATING COSTS OF FARMERS
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What was the total gross revenue of Canadian farmers in the years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963?
2.	What was the total net revenue of Canadian farmers in the years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963?
3.	What were the total operating costs incurred by Canadian farmers in the years 1960, 1961 1962 and 1963?

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4.	What was, by province, the average gross revenue of farmers in the years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963?
5.	What was, by province, the average net revenue of farmers in the years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963?
6.	What were, by province, the average operating costs incurred by farmers in the years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963?

Answer: 1 and 2. In dealing with this question, it must be made clear that all information concerning estimates of farm income or revenue represent only the farmers' income due to their farming operations. Out of farm revenues are not included.
1.	1960, $3,256,722,000; 1961, $3,054,429,000; 1962, $3,758,370,000; 1963, $3,896,278,000.
2.	1960, $1,340,364,000; 1961, $1,074,672,000; 1962, $1,678,772,000; 1963, $1,716,345,000.
3.	1960, $1,916,358,000; 1961, $1,979,757,000; 1962, $2,079,598,000; 1963, $2,179,933,000.
4.	5 and 6. The dominion bureau of statistics does not establish official estimates as concerns average agricultural income and expenses per farm, because of the difficulty of obtaining, on the number of farms or farmers, adequate figures which could serve in calculating all-purpose estimates. Usually, various figures are provided, allowing the user to choose the divider most appropriate to his needs.
According to the 1961 census, the number of farms, by province, in Canada is the following: Prince Edward Island, 7,335; Nova Scotia, 12,518; New Brunswick, 11,786; Quebec, 95,777; Ontario 121,333; Manitoba, 43,306; Saskatchewan, 93,924; Alberta, 73,212; British Columbia, 19,934.
The abovementioned farms were counted at the time of the 1961 agriculture census, according to a definition determining that a farm is an establishment of one acre or more, whose sales of farm products during the 12 months preceding the date of the census were evaluated at $50 or more. Newfoundland was omitted since no regular estimates of farm income are made for that province.
Moreover, the census established an estimation of the number of commercial farms in Canada, the supposition being that a commercial farm is a farm which during the 12 months before the date of the census sold farm products estimated at $1,200 or more. The number of such farms per province is as follows: Prince Edward Island, 4,530; Nova Scotia, 4,939; New Brunswick, 5,116; Quebec, 62,497; Ontario, 90,345; Manitoba, 33,522; Saskatchewan, 82,285; Alberta, 58,698; British Columbia, 10,902.
Since figures of that nature are collected only at the time of the census, there are no comparable figures for the years 1960, 1962 and 1963. However, the numerical variations during that period are probably unimportant. The use of those figures is based on the assumption that there is approximately one farmer per farm. The labour summary compiled by the dominion bureau of statistics gives annual information on the number of farmers in Canada, but not for each province.
The attached table indicates the provincial figures for gross receipts and operation costs for the requested years.

Prince
	Edward Island	Nova Scotia	New Brunswick	Quebec	Ontario	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta	British Columbia	CANADA
					in thousands of dollars					
1960										
Operating costs and depreciation	20,087	38,645	37,902	313,343	637,379	150,513	335,995	291,000	91,494	1,916,358Total gross income....	33,442	53,686	61,126	499,029	969,171	266,446	708,976	520,200	144,646	3,256,722Total net income..	13,355	15,041	23,224	185,686	331,792	115,933	372,981	229,200	53,152	1,340,3641961	Operating costs and depreciation 	21,403	40,872	40,275	329,138	671,266	152,381	327,410	301,888	95,064	1,979,757Total gross income....	28,271	55,691	52,185	520,123	1,025,212	214,585	460,345	541,952	156,065	3,054,429Total net income. .	6,808	14,819	11,910	190,985	353,946	62,204	132,935	240,064	61,001	1,074,6721962	Operating costs and depreciation 	21,619	42,447	40,904	346,802	691,588	165,349	353,851	317,099	99,339	2,079,598Total gross income....	28,594	55,102	52,766	547,080	1,071,119	339,795	859,889	634,364	169,661	3,758,370Total net income..	6,975	12,655	11,862	200,278	379,531	174,446	506,038	316,665	70,322	1,678,7721963	Operating costs and depreciation	22,439	44,102	41,776	365,021	714,215	171,455	382,762	335,429	102,734	2,179,933Total gross income....	29,285	55,343	52,767	553,258	1,092,081	291,526	985,821	667,282	168,915	3,890,278Total net income..	6,846	11,241	10,991	188,237	377,866	120,071	603,059	331,853	66,181	1,718,345
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WORLD FAIR PUBLICITY
Mr. Lalulippe: Has the Canadian world exhibition corporation completed the estimates relating to credits to be provided to the nine companies in charge of publicity for the corporation and, if so, what is the total amount of the credits and how much is available to each of these companies?

Answer: No credit allotments have been made and assignments to such associate companies are made as occasion arises in the light of special qualifications of the company selected for each specific project.


CANADIAN ARMY PERSONNEL AND EQUIPMENT
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	How many men were added as reinforcements to the Canadian infantry brigade in West Germany during the past two years?
2.	How many soldiers belonging to the NATO mobile reserve are stationed in Canada?
3.	How many M-113 armoured transports does the Canadian army have, where were they purchased and, at what price?
4.	How many heavy transport helicopters does the Canadian army have, where were they purchased and, at what price?
5.	What changes will be made in the organization of the Canadian troops attached to NATO following the revision of the defence cadres foreseen in the defence white paper?

Answer: 1. There has been no change in the general strength of our brigade in federal Germany during the past two years.
2.	An infantry battalion group which can be air-lifted with its supporting elements has been chosen for integration into Saceur mobile troups.
3.	At this time, the Canadian army has no M-113 vehicles. A contact was let to the Food Machinery Corporation of Sante Fe (California) and the delivery of M-113 to the Canadian army will start in September 1964. The unit price of those vehicles, f.o.b. United States, is the following: 450 M113-A1 armoured troop transports, $25,805 each; 11 M577-E1 HQ vehicles, $33,289 each.
4.	The Canadian army has no heavy transport helicopters. Twelve Vertol 107 helicopters have been ordered. The delivery of the first aircraft is to take place in August 1964. Two others will be delivered in September and October respectively, and the rest of the order will be carried out at the rate of one a month.
The contract, which was awarded to the Boeing Company, Vertol Division, Morton (Pennsylvania, U.S.A.) is dated February 14, 1964.
The price of each aircraft is $922,340, Fly Away-Field, Arnprior airport (Ontario), plus sales tax.
[Mr. Latulippe.l
5.	The main changes contemplated in respect of the reorganization of Canadian troops in NATO will be to increase their mobility so as to allow maximum flexibility in deployment. The changes will be operated in agreement with the NATO authorities according to needs.


CANADIAN COASTGUARD COLLEGE
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
1.	How many employees of the Point Edward naval base who have already been released or will be released as a result of the closure of the ship repair depot will receive employment at the Canadian coastguard college to be established at Point Edward, as recently announced by the Minister of Transport?
2.	Is it the intention of the Department of Transport to have all vessels of the Canadian coastguard that can be accommodated at Point Edward repaired there?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. Plans for the organization and staffing of the Canadian coastguard college to be established at Point Edward are not yet sufficiently advanced to know how many locally engaged employees will be required.
2. No.


NEW INDUSTRIES ESTABLISHED
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	Since the establishment of the Department of Industry how many new industries have come to Canada or been created in this country through the direct co-operation of the department?
2.	What industries were involved and where is each situated?
3.	What capital was invested in each case?
4.	What taxes, municipal, provincial and federal, have these companies paid since their establishment?
5.	How many persons are employed by each such company?


Mr. Drury:: 1 to 5. The Department of Industry is assisting new industries in many ways to establish in Canada. This is being achieved by the introduction of incentives such as the automotive incentive plan and the designated areas tax incentives program, as well as by other forms of assistance to achieve better industrial design, more diversification and efficiency in production, and a greater degree of industrial research and development in Canadian industry, thereby providing better access to domestic and foreign markets. Statistics are not maintained, nor would it be practical to attempt to do so, on the number of new industries which have been assisted, their locations, capital costs, taxes paid and employment.


MONORAIL CONSTRUCTION, WORLD FAIR
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	Is a monorail planned for the 1967 exhibition?

2.	Has Taylor Woodrow Canada Ltd. begun negotiations with the exhibition authorities with regard to the construction of a monorail?
3.	Have other companies also undertaken such negotiations and, if so, which companies?
4.	Will the Taylor monorail be financed by French interests and, if so, who are they?
5.	Who would own such a monorail?
6.	Who would control the monorail for the exhibition corporation?
7.	Have tenders been invited for the construction of a monorail by the exhibition corporation and, if so, have any tenders been received to date and from whom and for what amounts?


Mr. Sharp:: 1. Consideration is being given to the use of a monorail. However, no decision has been made to date.
2.	Discussions have taken place with Taylor Woodrow, and others as a result of a public tender called for mass transit system, which was advertised internationally, which tenders were received on April 22.
One of the bids submitted was by Janin, Bedard-Girard with Taylor Woodrow as their subcontractor.
3.	The C.C.W.E. has not entered into any contract negotiations with any company to date. Among the bidders who submitted tenders for the design and construction of a mass transit system, the following have submitted prices for the whole or part using monorail: Hawker Siddeley Canada Limited; Janin, Bedard-Girard, Joint Venture; Dufresne Engineering Company Limited; C. A. Pitts, Mechanical Handling System, Joint Venture.
4.	Taylor Woodrow Canada Limited have a commonwealth franchise for Safege Monorail as designed by Safege Transport of Paris.
5.	Industry has been invited to submit proposals for the supply and operation of monorail and other systems for secondary transportation on a concession basis. Several propositions have been received and are under study.
To date it has not been decided-(a) that a monorail would be a part of the exhibition; (b) that such a system would be better operated as a concession or purchased by the C.C.W.E. and subsequently sold.
6.	This question has been answered under No. 5.
7.	Tenders were called for the design and construction of the "mass transit system" on February 24, 1964 on the basis of plans and specifications prepared by Dillon Associates, consulting engineers to the C.C.W.E.
These specifications were of a broad nature and did not limit the type of system that could be proposed.
Basic criteria were as follows: (a) A primary system capable of transporting 30,000 people per hour from the island of Montreal to the exhibition site; (b) five secondary systems
Questions
ranging in volume from 8,500 to 10,000 people per hour to provide inter-exhibition area transportation.
Tenders submitted included the use of monorail and other systems.
Of the six transportation alignments, bidders were permitted to submit prices on all or any of these with no limitation on type of system. Due to the broad range of systems proposed, concession propositions and potential salvage values, the bid prices shown on the tender abstract annexed hereto do not necessarily reflect a true comparison of the various bidders.
These bids are under intensive assessment and scrutiny at this time and have to date involved discussions with some of the bidders.


TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING ASSISTANCE TO NOVA SCOTIA
Mr. Armstrong: 1.	Under what statutes is financial assistance given to the province of Nova Scotia for the purpose of technical and vocational training?
2.	What amounts were provided under each of these statutes in the financial year ended March 31, 1964?
3.	What technical or vocational school buildings in the province have been constructed or acquired for use with these funds?
4.	What subjects are taught, and in the case of each subject, at which schools is training in that subject available?


Mr. MacEachen:: 1. The Technical and
Vocational Training Assistance Act, December 20, 1960 and amended December 5, 1963.
2.	$4,728,047.21.
3.	Cape Breton county vocational high school, Sydney, new building; Cumberland county vocational high school, Springhill, new building; Halifax county vocational high school, Halifax, addition to existing school; Kings county vocational high school, Kentville, new building; Pictou county vocational high school, New Glasgow, new building; Yarmouth county vocational high school, Yarmouth, new building; Interprovincial trades school for the deaf, Amherst, new building; Nova Scotia agricultural college, Truro, operational costs; Nova Scotia college of art, Halifax, operational costs; Nova Scotia fisherman's training centre, Pictou, equipment and operational costs; Nova Scotia institute of technology, Halifax, new building; Nova Scotia land survey institute, Lawrencetown, equipment and operational costs; Nova Scotia marine engineering school, Halifax, equipment and operational costs; Nova Scotia marine navigation school, Halifax, equipment and operational costs; Nova Scotia trades schools, North Sydney and Stellarton, equipment and operational costs.
4.	Courses offered as of March, 1964.

Questions
Agriculture, N.S. agricultural school. Aircraft technician, N.S. institute of technology. Auto body, N.S. institute of technology. Trade schools, North Sydney and Stellarton. Auto mechanics, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Trade school, North Sydney.
Barbering, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Basic training for skill development, Nova Scotia institute of technology, trade school, North Sydney. Beauty culture: hairdressing, Halifax co. vocational high school. Boiler maker, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Bricklaying, Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Carpentry, Halifax co. vocational high school. Trade school, North Sydney. Commercial, Halifax co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Commercial art, Nova Scotia college of art. Cooking, Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Diesel mechanics, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Trade school, North Sydney. Draughting, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Electrical machinery, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Electrical technology, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Electricity, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Electronics, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Engine fitter, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Fisheries training, Fishermen's training centre. Fitter, mechanic, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Fitter, ship, Nova Scotia institute of technology.

Gas power tools, Trade school, North Sydney.
Heating and ventilation, Halifax co. vocational high school. Heavy duty machinery repair, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Joiner, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Land surveying, Land survey institute. Linemen, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Machine shop, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school Kings co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Marine electricity, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Marine engineering Marine engineering school. Marine navigation, Marine navigation school. Mechanical technology, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Oil burner repair, Trade school, North Sydney.
Painting and decorating, Halifax co. vocational high school. Pattern maker, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Photography, Halifax co. vocational high school. Pipe fitter, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Plumbing and pipefitting, Cape Breton co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Trade school, North Sydney.
Radio and T.V., Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Refrigeration, Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Retail merchandising, Yarmouth co. vocational high school.
Sheet metal, Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Ship plater, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Shipwright, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Steamfitter, Nova Scotia institute of technology.
Tile setting, Trade school, North Sydney.
Watch repair, Nova Scotia institute of technology. Welding, Kings co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Pictou co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Nova Scotia institute of technology. Trade schools, North Sydney and Stellarton. Woodworking, Pictou co. vocational high school. Kings co. vocational high school. Cumberland co. vocational high school. Halifax co. vocational high school. Yarmouth co. vocational high school.


ELIMINATION OF INDIAN RESERVES
Mr. Lalulippe: 1.	Is the Department of Citizenship and Immigration considering taking steps to gradually eliminate the Indian reserves?

Questions
2.	Did the Indian affairs commission submit representations to the government on this matter and, if so, what was the general nature of those
representations?
3.	When Reverend Father J. Mulvihill, proposed the gradual elimination of Indian reserves at a meeting during a forum on the training of leaders of the Canadian students' association of the United Nations at Ottawa, was he talking on behalf of the Indian affairs commission, of which he is a member, or was he expressing his personal views?


Hubert Badanai: 1. No.
2.	No.
3.	Rev. Father J. Mulvihill, O.M.I., is associate director of the Indian-Eskimo welfare commission operated under the auspices of the Oblate Fathers. The department has no information as to whether Father Mulvihill was speaking on behalf of the commission at the meeting referred to.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CLAIMS
Mr. Laprise: How many initial claims have been made by claimants to the unemployment insurance commission in each year since 1957?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Initial claims filed by fiscal year ending March 31: 1957, 1,256,051; 1958, 1,682,948; 1959, 1,792,864; 1960, 1,742,508; 1961, 1,814,326;	1962,	1,613,308;	1963,	1,507,802;
1964, 1,385,142.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY, QUE.
Mr. Laiulippe: 1.	What are the names of all postmasters or of all persons under contract for the delivery of rural mail, the locality of service and the salary or the amount of the contract in each case, in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac?
2.	How many persons empoyed by the Post Office Department have been employed by the department since June 18, 1962, and (a) what is the name of each and where does he work (b) what vacant position or what new position was each person hired to fill?
3.	How many persons in the constituency of Compton-Frontenac were dismissed by the Post Office Department since June 18, 1962 and (a) what is the name of each (b) what were the reasons for the dismissal in each case?
4.	How many changes in premises or administrative changes are foreseen by the Post Office Department in Compton-Frontenac during the coming year, following investigations already made or recommendations already submitted and what places or what persons are involved in each case and what are the reasons given?

Answer: As stated on December 4, 1963, in answer to question No. 1,677, this information is not readily available. Its compilation would necessitate a review of a great number of records and require undue labour and expense.


MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS EMPLOYEES, COMPTON-FRONTENAC CONSTITUENCY, QUE.
Mr. Laiulippe: Does the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys have any employees in Compton-Frontenac and, if so (a) what is the name of each (b) where does each work (c) how long has each been working for the department, and (d) what salary is paid in each case?


Mr. Benidickson:: The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has no continuing employees in the Compton-Frontenac area.


PURCHASE OF &quot;PALISADES&quot; PROPERTY, JASPER, ALTA.
Mr. Horner (Jasper-: Edson):
1.	When did the government buy the property known as the Palisades in Jasper?
2.	How much was paid for it?
3.	Has the government received any representations with a view to making use of this property as a youth training centre?
4.	What is the government's reactions to these representations?


Mr. Laing:: 1. April 25, 1962.
2.	$277,850.
3.	Yes.
4.	It was decided to use the buildings for other purposes.


NATIONAL PARK, FORT LATOUR, SAINT JOHN, N.B.
Mr. Bell: With respect to the proposed national historic park at Fort LaTour, Portland point, Saint John, N.B. (a) what are the results of the excavations there of last summer (b) have any approaches been made in France regarding the early French records and, if so, with what results (c) what is the present government thinking as to participation?


Arthur Laing: (a) The archaeological excavation showed that not enough evidence of Fort LaTour survives to make an authentic reconstruction possible. Although various artifacts were found, only scattered and disconnected fragments of wall remain from the fort itself, (b) A search for documentary material relating to Fort LaTour was made in France last year and during the past winter, without any success, (c) The government is prepared to consider financial participation on an equal basis with the government of New Brunswick and the municipality in the acquisition of the property containing the site of Fort LaTour, if this is the wish of those two bodies, and a suggestion to this effect has been forwarded to the provincial government and the county of Saint John.


ABSTRACT ART IN AIR TERMINALS
Mr. Mather: 1. What is the cost, in dollars, of the abstract art forms in the new air terminal buildings at Winnipeg, Edmonton and Toronto?

Orders for Returns
2. Is it the intention to include this type of art display in the Vancouver international airport?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. The cost, in dollars, of the fine art works at the new air terminal buildings at Winnipeg, Edmonton and Toronto was $270,000 which was one half of 1 per cent of the cost of the terminal projects.
2. A similar budget figure of one half of 1 per cent of the cost of the terminal project has been provided for fine art in the new Vancouver terminal building.


INCREASED IMPORTS FROM U.S.
Mr. Mather: What is the cause of the marked increase of Canadian imports from the United States in the first quarter of 1964?
Answer:	The latest statistics available
show that imports from the United States increased by 17.5 per cent from the first quarter of 1963 to the first quarter of 1964 whereas imports from all sources increased by 17.6 per cent. This rise in imports reflects sharply increased demands in Canada associated with the strong pace of expansion under way during the past year but is no doubt also attributable in part to the removal, effective the beginning of April 1963, of the remaining import surcharges which had been in effect since the exchange crisis of the preceding year.


WEIGHT OF PRODUCTS IN WAXED CONTAINERS
Mr. Orlikow: Have the weights and measures branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce and the food and drug directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare been able to decide between themselves which department is responsible for insuring that the contents of products in waxed containers are as indicated on the containers?


Julia Verlyn (Judy) LaMarsh: No problem has existed in this area for many years. The correct declaration of the net contents of prepackaged foods, including food products in waxed containers, falls within the jurisdiction of the Food and Drugs Act and regulations which are administered by the food and drug directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


REVENUE FROM LANDING FEES AND AVIATION


Mr. Nielsen: 1.	What was the total revenue collected by the Department of Transport in landing fees assessed to (a) commercial aircraft (b) private aircraft, for the six months period May 1, 1963 to October 31, 1963 at each airport in Canada controlled by the Department of Transport?
2.	What was the total revenue collected from the aviation fuel concession fee of one cent per gallon

from (a) commercial aircraft (b) private aircraft, for the six months period May 1, 1963 to October 31, 1963 at each airport in Canada controlled by the Department of Transport?
Return tabled.



CANADIAN GOVERNMENT AIRCRAFT

Mr. Latulippe: 1.	How many aircraft does the Canadian government own?
2.	How many different types of aircraft does Canada own?
3.	What is the average cost of each of these types?
4.	What was the average cost of maintaining each type in 1961, 1962, and 1963?
5.	What personnel expenditures on the average were required for each of these types for these three years?
6.	What is the average annual operating cost for each of these types?
7.	What were the losses for each type during the last three years?
Return tabled.



* TOLLS CHARGED IN NATIONAL PARKS

Mr. Wooliiams: 1.	When does the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources intend to amend the parks regulations and laws so that tourists infringing parking regulations in the Banff national park do not have to appear in court as if they had committed a quasi and/or criminal offence?
2.	Is the government intending to remove the toll charged people who are using the trans-Canada highway and must pass through the parks en route to their destination, although they do not desire to remain in the parks?
3.	What rates are charged to people using passenger cars or transport trucks when they must pass through the parks?
4.	Under what authority is a charge made to a person using the trans-Canada highway when he does not intend to remain in the parks or visit the same?
Return tabled.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Theogene Ricard (St. Hyacinthe-Bagoi):: I should like to ask the Minister of Labour when he will be in a position to answer starred question No. 1,192 which stands on the order paper in my name.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I will undertake to answer this question the next time questions are called.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Cote (Chicoutimi):: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege. Last week,

in the standing committee on public accounts, the technical aspect of the interpretation system went wrong. And it was not the first time that this has happened in a committee. Therefore, I would urge the government to have the engineering system corrected. We have excellent interpreters, who are perhaps underpaid; but the system should be rectified if we are to benefit from a perfect interpretation. Moreover, I received lately, from two departments, answers in English to questions which had been put in French on the order paper, whereas I had the right to get them in French, and I would insist that every minister who gives me an answer from now on, do so in French.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I have listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Chicoutimi with great interest. I am sure all members will appreciate that one of the reasons for bringing in a reorganization plan for the House of Commons was to step up the facilities with respect to interpretation, Hansard reporting and various other departments. We are making good progress here. We hope to establish a staff board within a few days and all these questions will be under constant review, particularly by the newly established staff board.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and ask him whether the appointment by the United Nations of a three nation committee to go to Cambodia indicates the probability that a peace keeping force will be established by the United Nations in Cambodia, South Viet Nam and southeast Asia generally.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is not possible at this time to say what will be the consequence of the investigation to be made by the three nation committee. After the committee has made its report it may be possible to give consideration to what should follow.


John George Diefenbaker: Is any consideration being given, or has Canada been communicated with in any way, concerning the reaction on the part of Canada to the establishment of such a peace keeping force and a contribution by this country?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No suggestion has been made as yet to Canada or, as far as
20220-256J
Inquiries of the Ministry I am aware, to any other country with regard to the establishment of a peace keeping force.


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS CO-OPERATIVE FEDERALISM    INFLUENCE OF WORLD FEDERALIST ORGANIZATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, I am addressing my question to the Acting Prime Minister, as well as to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. As three members of this government, that is, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Hays), the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Laing) and the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Dupuis) are attending the association for world federation, does the policy of that organization become, by that very fact, a policy or a principle supported by this government, that is to say the setting up of a future world government at the expense of national sovereignty?


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member put this question on the order paper. It is a question requiring quite a lengthy answer.


CO-OPERATIVE FEDERALISM    VIEWS EXPRESSED BY ST. JEAN BAPTISTE SOCIETY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Auguste Choquelte (Loibiniere):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State?
In view of the fact that the St. Jean Baptiste society have inveighed against cooperative federalism which they claim is national suicide; in view also of the uncalled for reaction of the hon. members opposite, I should like to ask the minister whether he has any comments on the matter or whether it is the government's intention to do something about those attacks against the policy of co-operative federalism?


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member put this question on the order paper.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I submit that this is an extremely important question, since it involves the present policy of the government.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Would the hon. member kindly take his seat. This question should be put on the order paper.

Inquiries of the Ministry [Translation]


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, I intend to transfer this question for discussion at ten o'clock tonight.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question to ask the Secretary of State in accordance with standing orders.
Is he aware of the suggestions made by the St. Jean Baptiste societies of Quebec concerning co-operative federalism and does he intend to study the proposed suggestions made by these societies on this subject?


Mr. Pigeon:: Yes, or no, it is easy.


Mr. Speaker:: It strikes me that if the first question asked, which is certainly delicate to say the least, is to be put on the order paper, the second question should also follow suit.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State.
As co-operative federalism would be tantamount to national suicide, is it the intention of the minister to bring forward a more logical formula?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, this question evidently does not come within my jurisdiction.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: It is your proposition.


Maurice Lamontagne: Nevertheless, I should like to remind the hon. member that I am favourable to that proposition, just like Mr. Roblin.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. What is the minister's opinion of the statement made by St. Jean Baptiste societies which disapprove of this policy?


TARIFF CONCESSIONS TO AUTOMOBILE FACTORIES LOCATING IN QUEBEC
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. [Translation]
Could the minister tell us whether a final decision has been reached regarding tariff cuts in the case of the Renault and Peugeot companies, so that they might move into the province of Quebec?


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and
Commerce): Mr. Speaker, I shall have to take this question as notice; I am not aware of these negotiations.


DUMPING DUTY ON IMPORTS FROM U.S.
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Acting Minister of National Revenue):: 


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the very critical situation centreing on Cyprus, has the minister some word for the house with regard to more recent developments than those recorded in today's press?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the situation over the week end was critical. However, I am happy to say that representations that were made to countries involved seem to have been observed, and the situation now seems to have eased considerably.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the recent statement by Right Hon. Duncan Sandys that the United Kingdom may withdraw from Cyprus if no progress is made, has the minister received any communication from the government of Great Britain in this respect, or given consideration to this aspect of the matter?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that the secretary of state for commonwealth affairs made that statement. What he did say, as I understood it, was that Her Majesty's government would give consideration to continued participation in the United Nations operation, depending upon the will and the attitude of the two communities toward the presence of British troops in the United Nations force. But there was no indication that they would not continue to participate in that force, given the satisfactory conditions outlined by the secretary of state for commonwealth affairs.


CANADIANS REMAINING IN U.N. FORCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last the hon. member for Calgary North asked how many Canadian army and air force personnel were still in the Congo and when were they to be returned to Canada.
As the hon. member knows, under the resolution adopted by the general assembly on October 18, 1963, the United Nations force in the Congo will be terminated at the end of this month. Repatriation of Canadian personnel has already started, with some 54 returning to Canada on May 27. At the present time there is a total of 179 Canadian servicemen in the Congo. Approximately 62 will be returning on June 17, 60 on June 27, and the remainder on the 30th of this month.
I am sure it would be of interest to all hon. members to know that since the United Nations force in the Congo was established in July, 1960, over 1,900 officers and men of the Canadian army and the Royal Canadian Air Force have served with distinction in that force.



SOCIAL ASSISTANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In her absence perhaps an appropriate minister will consider it.
Is the federal government aware of the declaration made by a minister of the Saskatchewan government that it intends to require recipients of social aid to work for relief? Have any proposals been made to the federal government regarding this matter, and what is the attitude of the federal government toward such a proposal?


Mr. Speaker:: This is a question for the order paper.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Howard Knowles: Dix heures.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Slarr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour and ask him whether the name of a Mr. Reamer has been submitted by the Canadian Labour Congress to the government for appointment to the unemployment insurance commission.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker, there has been no name submitted as yet.


Michael Starr: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister received any representation from affiliates of the Canadian Labour Congress supporting the reappointment of Mr. MacArthur to that commission?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe there was at least one communication which arrived some time ago, but I would be glad to check and make sure of the extent of the representations received.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last the hon. member for Ontario asked a question of the Prime Minister with regard to special consideration being given to civilian employees of the Department of National Defence should their services be no longer required. In the absence of the Prime Minister perhaps I might be allowed to answer this question.
Serious consideration was given by the government to this matter, and I can inform the hon. member that it was decided that there should be no change in the benefits for civilian employees other than those set out by the Prime Minister when he communicated with the president of the civil service federation of Canada at the end of last month.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious situation so far as the civilian employees are concerned, and as a supplementary question I would like to ask what is the actual reason they are treated differently than those in the armed forces?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Mr. Speaker, I would be in a position now to give the hon. member the reasons that motivated the decision of the government in this matter, but it is a very

Inquiries of the Ministry lengthy answer. I would hope the hon. member would put that question on the order paper.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, I should like to answer a question asked the other day by the hon. member for Ontario with respect to the nationality of the bargaining committee for the seafarers international union. I have been provided with a list of the members of the bargaining committee, and all those on the committee are listed as Canadians with the exception of two persons. One is Mr. Patrick Flaherty, born in Galway, Republic of Ireland, and the other is Mr. James Madison, born in Copenhagen.


Michael Starr: A supplementary question. Is Mr. Paul Hall not sitting in on these negotiations?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: This is the information I received from the trustees. I did see in the newspaper, as likely the hon. member did, that Mr. Paul Hall did attend the meeting but I am not able to confirm that. As a matter of fact I have received information that he did not attend, although that other report was in the press.



HAL BANKS-RAISING OF FUNDS FOR LEGAL DEFENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Is the minister aware that members of the negotiating committee of the S.I.U. have undertaken to raise money for the legal defence of Hal Banks, and does the minister think this is a proper function for this committee?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The question is out of order.


David Orlikow: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister of Labour a question about the S.I.U. which you said was out of order. I wonder if I could be told how my question was out of order while the question about the S.I.U., which the hon. member for Ontario asked several days ago, was answered today.


Mr. Speaker:: I will be glad to take the request of the hon. member into consideration.



CANADIAN FLAG


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should also like to ask a delicate question. Would the Minister of Justice, the house leader, tell the house what are the present plans as to the day when the two flag resolution will be introduced? We should like to know in advance.


Hon. Guy Favreau (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, there are no plans for introducing a debate on any two flag resolution.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Justice is apparently unaware of what the rest of the government is doing, may I ask him this. When will the resolution which provides for a flag bearing three maple leaves, as well as the union jack, be introduced?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the order paper I might say it is my belief, subject to a definite announcement tomorrow, that the debate on-


George James McIlraith: It is order No. 44.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. MacEwan:: What a house leader.


Guy Favreau: I said subject to confirmation tomorrow.


Michael Starr: You mean subject to Paul Martin.


Guy Favreau: The resolution which is on the order paper concerning a distinctive flag for Canada will commence to be dealt with on Thursday.


Hon. Paul Martineau (Ponliac-Temisca-mingue):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the minister's answer, should we conclude that the part of the resolution concerning the union jack will be abandoned?


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice.
Is it true that it is the intention of the government to redraft both resolutions that are now under study so that the first resolution would include the maple leaf flag and the national anthem "O Canada" and the second, the union jack and "God save the Queen"?


Guy Favreau: It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that these questions may be discussed at a proper time, that is when the resolution is introduced in the house.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would not want any question to result in further collaboration among the Acting Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but does the minister say that the government does not know yet what course it is going to follow? Is that the reason for the uncertainty?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, 1 am glad to advise the right hon. gentleman that there will always be the utmost collaboration among all ministers. The matter of the exact time of the introduction, subject to what I have just said, will be finally announced tomorrow.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, surely the house is entitled to know whether the government is going to divide this resolution in order to secure greater support.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Justice has just pointed out and as the right hon. gentleman, who a few days ago said he was a great House of Commons man, should know, the rules of the house require that questions of this sort shall be debated at the appropriate time. In this case the appropriate time is when the resolution is before the house.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the hon. gentleman that these gratuitous observations do not represent the attitude he took when he was over here and when he argued the very reverse.


Mr. Erik Nielsen (Yukon):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Justice or the Secretary of State for External Affairs or the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but since the Minister of Justice seems to need rescuing I will put it to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can he tell us whether the design tabled at the time the resolution was printed in Votes and Proceedings is the design that is to be adopted by that resolution?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, this question is clearly out of order for the reason I gave a moment ago. When this matter is before the house my hon. friend will get the responses to which he will then be entitled. Until such time as that resolution is before the house, these questions are intended not to elicit information but to confuse, and they are contrary to the rules of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Because of the general interest in this subject, which is putting it mildly, the Chair has been a little lenient
Inquiries of the Ministry today. However, in discussing a certain question asked by a member to my left the other day I ruled the question out of order on at least three grounds. I could have given eight but the three grounds were: (1) The question contains observations which might lead to a debate; (2) it refers to a debate or to answers to questions during the current session; (3) it anticipates an order of the day. I would respectfully suggest that we have had quite a few questions concerning the flag issue this afternoon, and we should leave it at that.


John George Diefenbaker: Always with deference, Mr. Speaker, I would point out this fact which apparently is not known to Your Honour. On Saturday the Prime Minister's office put out a new model flag, and surely we have the right to learn in parliament what is leaked from his office. We do not want to see controlled news items in this country, and that is the reason we ask this question. Apparently parliament is not to have certain information that the office of the Prime Minister makes available to the press.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, since the right hon. gentleman has not asked a question but made an observation, may I simply say that there is no basis whatsoever, as one might expect in this particular context, for the statement made by the right hon. gentleman.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, this indicates that the Secretary of State for External Affairs does not know the kind of stuff that is being sent out by the Prime Minister's office. In regard to the statement just made I raise a question of privilege. This afternoon's paper contains an article headed "Maple Leaf Flag 'Refined' ".


Paul Joseph James Martin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I must at least listen to what the question of privilege is before I can decide whether or not it is in order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, there was no question of privilege raised by the right hon. gentleman, who knows that it is contrary to the rules of the house to frame a question as he was seeking to frame it, by means of a commentary. If the right hon. gentleman will frame his question in the appropriate manner based upon what is in this afternoon's paper, it can be considered. But I suggest to you, sir, that in the form in which the right hon. gentleman has proceeded this afternoon, this question is out of order.

Inquiries of the Ministry


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I was proceeding with my question of privilege. While I know that the hon. gentleman is possessed of prevision and prescience to a high degree, he does not know the question of privilege I am going to raise. I now proceed following the interruption. This article is by the Canadian Press and it is also sanctified by the C.B.C.:
Artists have "refined" the government's proposed maple leaf flag, a spokesman in the Prime Minister's office said Saturday. "The basic design has not been altered," he stressed. These are the changes:
1.	The vertical blue bar at each edge of the flag has been widened slightly. The colour has also been deepened to "bring it closer to a royal blue."
2.	The size of the three red maple leaves has been reduced slightly, and their colour also has been deepened. They will be close to scarlet.
3.	The stems of the leaves have been straightened and made slightly thinner, removing the noticeable nodes that appeared in the original design.
Some M.P.'s had called these nodes "a plumber's lament."
When I asked the question I was doing so on the basis of the most dependable information I could get. I now ask the hon. gentleman, is the information that was given by the Prime Minister's office on Saturday correct? Is parliament not entitled to know what has been leaked to the press, if you call it a leak?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is seeking, of course, by every device at his disposal to get me to violate the rules of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should say to the right hon. gentleman, of course, that I have not seen the story in question. But it is clear from what the right hon. gentleman has read that there is no change in design, and when my right hon. friend is confronted with the resolution he will not only find that is the fact but he will also find that not only in this house but in this country there is nothing but approval for the stand taken by the Prime Minister.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I suggest that we have had enough questions on this particular subject, and that we move on to something else.


Erik Nielsen: May I crave your indulgence? For the benefit of members of the house, can the Acting Prime Minister tell us whether the paper design that was produced in conjunction with the resolution is part of that


resolution, so we will know what we are dealing with rather than being confronted with all these alterations?


Maurice Côté: Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the Acting Prime Minister?
Is the minister aware that the future national flag, the one with three maple leaves, was raised and unfurled in Chicoutimi, before nearly 10,000 people, and also raised on city hall square, to the strains of O Canada, and that it was warmly acclaimed by the people?



PENITENTIARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the order of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I was going to direct a question to the Acting Prime Minister, but it is obvious I will not get a straight answer, so I will try my luck with the Minister of Justice.


Mr. Speaker:: I understand that the last remark is meant to be facetious.


Frank Howard: It was meant to be serious, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice whether it is a fact that the government has shelved its proposal to construct a new prison for women at Cornwall, and is going ahead with replacement of the present structure at its present site at Kingston.


Guy Favreau: The answer which I have already given on that point stands. I am pleased to advise the house, including of course my hon. friend, that I am going to meet the groups concerned on Saturday, July 11, to discuss the matter.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
David Orlikow: should like to ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration if he can make a statement to the house on the case of John Thomadakis who, in a habeas corpus application, claimed he had been detained in the Don jail for 38 days without trial, then tried and sentenced to five months in jail with deportation to follow. He also claimed he was tried for an unknown offence and without a lawyer to defend him, although he had asked for one.


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Here are the facts concerning the case of John Thomadakis.
Thomadakis is a citizen of Greece who was engaged as a shipmate in the United States, on January 1962, and who jumped his ship in Montreal on June 6, 1962.
He succeeded in escaping the searching efforts of immigration officers until March 3, 1964, when he was arrested in Toronto.
An investigation was held the next day under the Immigration Act. Contrary to some reports, Thomadakis was made aware of the purpose of the investigation and he admitted that he understood why the investigation was held. A Greek female interpreter was present and Thomadakis said he was certain she had the necessary qualifications to interpret his statements. He was informed of his right to be represented by a lawyer of his choice, and he stated under oath that he did not want to be represented.
The facts brought out at the investigation established that Thomadakis had entered Canada by avoiding the examination and that having come to Canada as crew member, he stayed here after the ship on which he had come went away. The special investigator then ordered his deportation, as required by the act.
Although Thomadakis stated that he did not wish to exercise his right of appeal, a stenographic copy of the evidence was sent to the headquarters of the immigration branch. The case was studied again in Ottawa and the deportation order was confirmed. Thomadakis was informed by letter, under date of March 18, that he would be deported to Greece as soon as it would be feasible.
Since Thomadakis had nothing to prove that he was a Greek citizen, steps were taken to get the document needed for the trip and arrangements were made for the trip.
Before those arrangements could be completed, however, Thomadakis had an interview with the R.C.M.P. They informed him that he would be charged with illegal entry into Canada and he received formal notification from them. Once again a competent interpreter was present and Thomadakis admitted that the statement read to him in Greek was accurate.
Thomadakis was served a summons on April 9, 1964, and on April 10 he was charged by the police with illegal entry into Canada. He was found guilty in magistrate's court in Toronto and sentenced to five months in jail.
Hon. members will notice that in that case appropriate legal action was taken by the immigration authorities within 24 hours
Inquiries of the Ministry of Thomadakis' arrest, that a competent interpreter was provided, that his right to be represented by counsel was clearly explained to him and that he was given the opportunity to appeal the decision of the special investigator. In my opinion, no justifiable criticism can be made concerning the handling of the case, and there have been no undue delays with respect to arrangements for deportation.
However, by entering Canada illegally, Thomadakis was not only liable to deportation; he had committed a felony. He was liable to prosecution in that respect as for any offence against the law of Canada. At present he is serving the sentence imposed by the court and will be deported upon his release from jail.
I could add that a certain number of prisoners in the Don jail have been convicted by a competent court for crimes they have committed and that they will be deported from Canada when they have served their sentence.


David Orlikow: May I ask a supplementary question. Will the minister investigate Mr. Thomadakis' complaint that he was told by immigration officials that he could have counsel, but if he did he would certainly be charged and tried for breaking the law, while if he did not bother to get counsel he would probably be deported immediately?


René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, I will take this question as notice.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Trinity-Conception.


Paul Raymond Martineau: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the minister give us as soon as possible the names of the other persons detained pending deportation? Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration could answer my question.


René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, I think that this question should be put on the order paper.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Concepiion):: May
I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Will the minister inform the house the present

Inquiries of the Ministry position of the strike at St. John's, Newfoundland, and if he sees any possibility of an early settlement?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: The mediator is still at work in St. John's, Newfoundland. It is expected that a meeting may be held tomorrow with regard to this dispute. It is a very difficult one, and I can make no assessment as to the future. As my hon. friend knows, the prospects of settlement depend upon the attitudes adopted by the parties.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (Queens-Lunenburg):: The Minister of Fisheries has announced a change in the formula for the payment of assistance under the regulations covering fishing boat construction and the lowering of the minimum size for eligibility to 35 feet. Will the minister also give consideration to the payment of the same percentage of subsidy for the construction of wooden fishing trawlers 75 feet and over that is presently paid to steel fishing trawlers, thereby ending the discrimination against the wooden shipbuilding areas in Canada?


Mr. Speaker:: Will the hon. member put this question on the order paper.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eric A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: I should like to address a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Will the minister table a return showing the number of returns to questions not yet brought down from the last session as well as from the present session?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.



WORLD FAIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, to whom I have just given notice.
Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce acceded to the request of the authorities, or rather, has he accepted Mr. Lucien Saulnier's

suggestion that another approach to the Champlain bridge be added to facilitate access to the world fair?


Mr. Speaker:: This is a question for the order paper.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: I think the minister is ready to answer.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Postmaster General):: On Thursday last the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria asked me, as the minister through whom Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation reports to parliament, a question concerning the arrangements to be made to assist workers at the Point Edward naval base. I took the question as notice.
Since the question was asked I have gone into the matter with the officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and have been advised that the corporation has no rental housing units serving the employees at the Point Edward naval base, nor has the corporation any problems relating to arrears of mortgage payments in this area.


Mr. Robert Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: May I ask a supplementary question. I thank the minister for his reply; he is always a gentleman, unlike some of his colleagues.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure the hon. member did not mean what he stated, just incidentally to his main question.


Robert Muir: I cannot hear you, sir, but the Postmaster General is a real gentleman so far as I am concerned. May I ask him a specific question. I was not specifically referring to central mortgage and housing, although that was included, but could he not with his cabinet colleagues look into the question of assisting those who have been put out of employment by this government in paying their rent? They still have to pay rent.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, that is a question for the order paper. I have looked into the central mortgage and housing aspect of it, and with regard to the other aspect, if it is put on the order paper I shall make inquiries.



DATE OF PAYMENT OF WINTER CONSTRUCTION BONUS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. W. Pritiie (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Is the minister aware that many persons living in houses completed before March 31 have not received the $500 bonus yet, and can he inform the house when these bonuses will be paid?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This is a question for the order paper.


Robert William Prittie: Mr. Speaker, I submit to Your Honour that the question of people waiting for $500 is rather more important to them than many of these frivolous questions on the flag.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Postmaster General. On May 5, as recorded at page 2927 of Hansard, I asked him a question concerning the possible fraudulent use of the mails by a finance company in Winnipeg and he said he would look into the matter. I wonder if he could bring down an answer fairly soon.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to the hon. member. The answer was supplied to me a few days ago, and I will be glad to give it to the hon. member during the next question period.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Monimorency):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence?
Has the minister read the statement made over the week end by two economists to the effect that the first step the federal government should take in order to improve federal-provincial relations would be reduce considerably the expenditures of his department and, if so, what action does he propose to take himself?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: No, Mr. Speaker.
Inquiries of the Ministry ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE



ST. VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY-REMISSION OF CORPORAL PUNISHMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, I should like to answer a supplementary question the hon. member for Three Rivers asked me on May 29, when he wanted to know the latest date on which the sentence of the lash had been carried out at the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary.
Here is the answer: On May 11, 1964, in the case of three inmates.
Now, for his personal information, I have the data concerning the other dates in the other places of detention if he is interested.



NORTHERN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
Could the minister tell us whether other meetings have taken place, in the last few days, between his department and the officials of the Quebec department of natural resources in order to operate the transfer to the province of Quebec of the administration of Eskimo affairs, and could he tell us also whether those negotiations have been broken off or whether there is still some ground for understanding and what is his department doing in that respect?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Would the hon. member put this on the order paper? [Translation]


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put my question in such a way that it will be in order and ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether there has been any meeting lately between the officials of his department and those of the department of natural resources of the province of Quebec concerning the transfer of Eskimo affairs.


Arthur Laing: Mr. Speaker, there has been no contact by myself with any minister of the government of the province of Quebec since I last spoke on this matter in the house.

National Housing Act [Translation]


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a supplementary question. Does the minister intend to enter into new negotiations with that department of the province of Quebec about this?


Mr. Speaker:: I must interrupt the hon. member. We have had three questions on this same subject all asking for detailed answers and it does seem to me, inasmuch as this question has been raised every week for the last two or three weeks, that this is a question for the order paper.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: the second reading of Bill No. C-102, to amend the National Housing Act, 1954.
He said: My remarks during the resolution stage were extended, and in these circumstances I do not intend to make any further observations at this time. I will leave it to hon. members of the house to comment on the bill now before us.


Erik Nielsen: National Housing Act
If the minister will ask his officials I am sure in 10 or 15 minutes there can be explained to him the history of the long fight which we waged from roughly 1950 through to 1958 for an amelioration of the restrictive terms of the housing act so that it would work in the Yukon Territory. He will then immediately understand just how difficult it was in that day for northerners to obtain loans at all. But with all credit to the previous government, the act was amended so as to permit building, and I think the significance of the statistic I have just cited to the minister will indicate that this is so; that is to say, where only two homes were built under the N.H.A. prior to 1958, in the next two or three year period there were well over 100 built in the Whitehorse area alone. But there is still no N.H.A. building going on in any other community in the Yukon.
The reason for this, of course, is that the standards are too high. Some communities have not water and sewer facilities; septic tanks are not allowed, I believe. I am not an expert on the housing standards that are required by C.M.H.C., but I do know that one of the greatest complaints as I travel around my constituency is that the people who want to build homes and settle down and make themselves and their families permanent citizens there simply cannot do so because they have not the wherewithal themselves with which to build, and N.H.A. is not working in their communities.
Therefore I would urge the minister to give these northern conditions particular consideration. The personnel of C.M.H.C. are not only dedicated people, but in my experience they are people of imagination who can usually find solutions to these problems if they really have a mind to do so. I am sure if a little bit of time is devoted to this particular problem they will be able to come up with suggestions to the minister for perhaps future amendments to the act which would allow home building to go on in these northern communities to the same extent as it goes on in the remaining parts of Canada.
The other matter I wanted to draw to the minister's attention is the lack of any inspection facilities in the Yukon; and the same situation, again, exists in the Northwest Territories. Usually, as the minister knows, inspection services are available in or close to communities that are doing any extensive C.M.H.C. building at all. The facilities that we are required to use in the Yukon are based at Prince George, so that there is a substantial delay between reaching the stage of construction that the act requires and its actual inspection, for which the inspector must travel from Prince George to Whitehorse, and then the approval and subsequent

payment. So contractors sometimes have to-wait as long as two or three months, and longer, for progress payments. Certainly it is wrong, I feel, to have contractors carrying the corporation or the government-the corporation in this instance-out of their own funds. That is what it amounts to. The mortgage advances are not made, and the contractor has to obtain a loan at the bank at 6 per cent in order to make the payment which C.M.H.C. should have made. If the inspection services were based on the spot this problem would be overcome.
I submitted a rather lengthy list of suggestions concerning standards to Mr. Bates before his death. Mr. Bates replied at length to me, and I understand that these matters are all under consideration in the corporation now so I will not take up the time of the house with the detail of those submissions. I have never had anything but the greatest co-operation from the officials of C.M.H.C., and particularly Mr. Bates with whom I was wont to deal most often. I am sure they will look at these submissions with respect to standards and perhaps, if it is at all possible, make the necessary proposals to have the standards requirements of their legislation or regulations amended so as to take into account northern conditions.
With those few observations with respect to northern housing, Mr. Speaker, I would urge the minister to take these specific matters under his personal care and attention. I know he will do that, and I know he will get the utmost co-operation from the officials of C.M.H.C., and perhaps we might see some further progress in northern housing development.


Mr. Reid Scott (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, as has already been indicated by other speakers from my party, we welcome this bill and are, of course, prepared to support it. It is particularly pleasant to be able to accept this measure with enthusiasm, because I recall that the last time the hon. gentleman brought some legislation before the house in connection with the post office we were not able to greet it with the same enthusiasm with which we welcome this bill, and that is a pleasant change.
I do not want to deal with the specific clauses of the bill. We had some discussion on this matter, and I want to leave the clauses until the committee stage where they will be dealt with in detail by the minister. One thing which is important in the discussion is this. It should be made clear that the problems of housing and urban development are in no way exclusively restricted to the large centres of population; the smaller

towns in the rural areas are just as vitally affected by measures of this kind as the large city centres.
A report by the Ontario department of municipal affairs in 1962 set out this situation very clearly. For example, it pointed out that in Sault Ste. Marie 55 per cent of the structures were classified as less than good. The survey conducted in the city of Kingston again showed evidence of blight. The survey showed that many of the homes were seriously lacking in necessary facilities for good housing. Hamilton had pockets of substandard housing, which was also set out in the report. In Windsor over 25,000 structures were examined, 13.3 per cent found vulnerable to blight, 3 per cent totally blighted and others partly blighted. The report also discusses Ottawa, where out of 5,385 units examined there were 4,370 which had serious deficiencies in sanitary and housing facilities.
One of the worst places in the province of Ontario, and perhaps in all Canada, is my home city of Toronto, where very little progress has been made in the matter of public housing in the last five years. In 1958 the metropolitan council set itself a target of 1,000 units a year but now, five years later, they have only erected about 550 in total.
This is a situation which has developed all across the country; it is not restricted. It is in contrast to some other areas which have promoted this type of housing very adequately and have therefore been much more successful. The city of Newark in New Jersey has built twice as many as the whole of Canada, yet its population is only 500,000 compared with Canada's 18 million.
We were particularly pleased to hear in the minister's speech the emphasis he properly laid on the need for public housing and urban redevelopment, because these are two of the areas which have been tremendously neglected. The minister was very tactful in his speech, and admitted quite candidly that progress to date had been something less than perfect. That is a diplomatic way of putting it. I suggest instead that to date it has really been an abject failure. One of the problems we seem to have in this house and which I have experienced is that everyone seems reluctant to admit that problems exist in case they start an argument as to who created the problem, and we seem to spend as much time trying to allocate responsibility for a particular problem and in blaming the cause on a particular government as we do in trying to devise some sort of effective and realistic programs to deal with them.
My main interest in participating in this debate at the second reading stage is that I
National Housing Act
feel what we should be concerning ourselves with is not just the passage of this bill but with what is going to happen after the bill receives royal assent. Words and phrases do not build houses, and the good intentions expressed in the bill are absolutely useless unless they are carried out with tremendous initiative, energy and vigour. I think we should be more concerned about how this bill is carried into reality than with the clauses themselves, and I will suggest to the minister some proposals for his consideration which I think will enable us to make this an act really worth while and productive of concrete results.
The first thing I think the government should seriously consider is the creation of a ministry of housing which should be headed by a full time minister. For too long in Canada we have failed to recognize that good housing, at prices which people can afford, and good citizens are intimately connected; that the provision of good housing is every bit as important as the provision of family allowances, pensions, hospitalization schemes and other welfare measures. We have paid lip service to this principle in Canada, but I do not think we have ever really accepted it. Yet the connection between housing and good citizens is so obvious to me that I do not think it needs any documentation.
Governments in previous years have largely regarded housing as some sort of economic pump primer. When construction was dragging our governments have tended to turn on the tap and let some mortgage money flow out in an endeavour to stimulate the housing industry, not so much through a genuine belief in a housing scheme as an inducement to employment and as a means of attempting to stimulate the economy. We saw an example of that in the $500 winter construction bonus, which was primarily designed to provide employment and was not particularly concerned with housing itself. It is also significant that this scheme is not administered by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation under the minister but is under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Labour.
Over the years our housing agencies have been shifted from one department to another, and they are now under the control of the present minister. Presumably when another minister is appointed after the by-election in Saskatoon there will be another shifting around. This has really lowered the whole approach to housing.
I do not think we have ever recognized the tremendous need in Canada for a genuine national housing program. I know it is difficult. I realize that housing problems have to be worked out in the context of the federal

National Housing Act
state, and that we have to deal with provinces which have been pretty darned apathetic over the problem. We have also had to deal with municipalities which are the creatures of those provinces. I realize that our municipal politicians in particular and people in general have always shown a great reluctance to get into the field of housing, and I am aware of the difficulties this creates for a federal minister who is trying to promote a proper housing scheme. But the best way to show the provinces and the municipalities that one really means business would be to give pretty serious consideration to elevating housing to its proper place. This is just as important as national health and welfare, it is just as important as fisheries and it is just as important as forestry.
I think it is about time that we Canadians establish and put into operation a new ministry of housing headed by a full-time minister. In view of the hon. gentlemen's speech at the resolution stage and the attitude he has shown, I think I would be quite happy if he were the minister in charge of this great undertaking. So my first suggestion is that we have a full-time minister of housing.
My second suggestion is that I think the minister should be prepared to take to the road and sell this measure to the provinces and to the municipalities. This is going to be one of the very big problems, to overcome what I described a moment ago as the apathy and indifference of the provinces and the municipalities in this field. I should like to see, for example, a series of provincial-municipal conferences organized by the minister in each province where the provincial governments and the municipalities could be brought together, and their needs examined and in particular specific goals and targets set so that we will have some rule by which to measure the success which is being achieved in this particular field. Again, if this is going to be done, if you are really going to get out, promote the act and overcome the apathy, there will have to be a full-time minister of housing. I do not see how you are going to get around that particular problem otherwise.
Third, I should like to see the minister stir up his own department, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which at the moment is largely oriented toward private, single family homes and apartments built by private operators. This is not the department's fault. Successive governments have never really encouraged the department to activate itself in some of these other fields. But they are at the moment largely oriented in this direction, and it seems to me that one thing that really could promote the act would be if the minister could get the department all steamed up, and then

C.M.H.C. officials right across the country could really sell the program to the municipal officials and local planners with whom they are in daily contact. This would go a long way toward active promotion of this particular scheme.
Fourth, I think the government should seriously consider sponsoring and financing courses on a university level for housing authorities, housing administrators, welfare authorities and, in short, anybody having anything to do with public housing, especially homes for the aged. If such courses were made available and the details, benefits and necessity of substantial action under this act were made clear, I think these officials would have a lot of information they do not have now. They would be a lot better informed and prepared to recommend schemes to their particular municipalities.
Fifth, I should like to see the minister promote this housing legislation by greater use of press conferences and press coverage. We simply must begin to make Canadians more housing conscious. We are obsessed in Canada with single family ownership and all of the advertising and promotion have been in this direction. Consequently a stigma has grown up against subsidized public housing, and I think the minister has a big job ahead of him if he is going to reorient Canadian thinking on this subject and make people realize that public housing is perfectly respectable, and subsidized housing is economically necessary. If he began such a campaign I think it would be most helpful.
For example, I should like to see a model city built somewhere in Canada so all Canadians could see the wonderful new things that are available in town planning, planning techniques and housing in general. We might even make it a part of our centennial celebrations; but a model city would encourage people to see it, make them realize the importance of housing in our daily lives and would put them a long way on the road to considering this as a major problem.
Sixth, I should like to see the government initiate a crash program for senior citizens, especially single pensioners. I know the minister has been on a cross country tour and has visited many areas. I am sure he has seen, as all of us have, the shameful and disgusting accommodation in which many pensioners live. All of us during election campaigns have had occasion to visit these individuals in their single rooms at the top of houses and have come away-I did at least-ashamed to be a Canadian, in that we were permitting our pensioners to live in such deplorable circumstances. While I realize there are other aspects of great importance, I should still like to see a crash program, for humanitarian

reasons if nothing else, because these people are not going to be with us very much longer.
Seventh, we simply must find some method of streamlining and making less complicated the procedures and regulations required to initiate these proposals. At the present time it takes approximately 58 steps in number to bring a program into actual realization. This results in endless and needless delays, frustration and quite often eventual abandonment of the project because it just does not seem to be going to get anywhere.
Eighth, we have to try to convince municipalities that they must permit greater flexibility in building, greater flexibility in their bylaws, greater flexibility in the designing of the buildings involved. I think Toronto has the most archaic building bylaws in North America, and I am sure this sort of thing frustrates and defeats many of the purposes of the planners and many of the hopes of our legislators.
Ninth, finally, and most important, I think that everything devolves on the minister. It seems to me that the success or failure of the act will rest on his ability to marshal his energy and imagination and to give the country leadership in the field of housing, something that it has been badly lacking. The problems of urban communities are so immense that they are almost staggering. I do not suggest for a moment that we can expect any miracles in the next year or two, but it is time for action to commence, and it really is going to devolve on the minister himself. In fact, the minister has an opportunity that I would envy, because if he is able to do some of these things, if he is able to overcome the apathy, if he is able to get things moving in the housing field in a really big way, he has a chance to change the face of Canada and to begin now that process that has been long delayed and which would revive our urban centres and our rural regions as well.
These suggestions I make to the minister are obviously of a short run character designed to deal with this particular piece of legislation, but in concluding I want to suggest something else. I suggest to him that the real problem of urban life is, as I have said, enormously complicated because it involves all the needs of town planning, transportation, communication, industrialization, commercialization, as well as places for people to live. It creates great social and psychological problems which none of us really understands and we do not have enough information with which to deal with them. I propose that the minister should give consideration to a long run approach to housing in addition to this legislation. I suggest to him that the government should consider appointing a royal commission on housing that could begin to
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sit now and obtain the information we need to devise solutions to deal with the problems of urban Canada in the next two decades.
We all know that our urban areas are growing steadily in numbers and strength, and that it will not be too long before 80 per cent of our people will live in cities and 20 per cent in rural districts. This is going to pose problems of an almost staggering nature. I suggest that this royal commission should have wide ranging terms of reference. For example, I think it should establish the approximate housing needs of low income families. I should recommend a national housing policy to deal with all segments of society including the following: Housing for low income families, housing for moderate income families and housing for the elderly.
It should study and report on the kind of public housing programs required in large, medium and small communities. It should study and report on the place of government in land assembly and economic rental housing projects, because we have really never made up our minds what position the government occupies. It should study and report on a less complicated arrangement with respect to financial and accounting arrangements as between the participating groups. It should study and report on rental structures on all types of public housing. It should report on the present system of producing public housing; how effective it is, what the roadblocks are and what is the best way around them. It should report on the desirability of the senior governments acting as financial agents only, giving greater and greater autonomy to our municipal people, to the local agencies and corporations that will carry out these projects. It should report on the role to be played by private enterpise in urban renewal and public housing programs. We have really not delineated where the government stands and where private enterpise stands, and this is constantly muddling up and confusing housing projects.
This commission should study and report on the general planning of public housing projects with specific reference to design, size, provision of services, relation to urban development programs, conservation, rehabilitation and acquisition of existing housing, all the things that go into a massive plan. It should give some idea of the kind of local organization required to deal with urban renewal, public housing and relocation operations. I believe that as this act comes into force in the next two or three years, as it gets more active, we will have an organization. However, what we really need is a thorough study in depth. It should report on housing for the aged with specific reference to environment and site requirements and

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co-operation between the various levels of government, as well as economics, the plight of our pensioners and their needs.
These are only a few of the things I think this commission should study. If this commission were appointed and permitted to sit for the next two or three years gathering this information in the usual way, then I believe the government would have the necessary information with which to initiate, not a short term program which is of course essential at the moment, but a long term program that is really designed to assess the whole problem of the development of urban Canada and the best way in which we, as the government, can handle it. I know that is a big task and that is why I reluctantly suggest a royal commission. I do not usually like them. However, I think this is the type of work they can usefully do. If the minister would take this into consideration I think we could possibly come up with a long range program.
I just want to repeat what I said at the beginning. We are glad to have the act and we are relying on the minister to give the government the leadership it so desperately needs. I believe that if this is done, then despite the problems we may be on the way to a solution of them.


Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker we, too, welcome the improvements that are going to be introduced as a result of this bill we have before us. Like everyone else, I suppose, we can always find more things to do than we have the means with which to accomplish them. I am well aware, as I think most members are, of the problems that confront the minister in connection with housing.
First of all I think we have to recognize that the number of starts, the number of units that we have in the planning stage, the goal to which we are looking forward, has to be related to the economic impact this will have. It is impossible to isolate large housing programs from their economic impact on the Canadian economy. We are considering the problems of growth, we are considering replacements and then we are considering the number of people who actually need new houses. Immediately we are confronted, I believe, with a very serious problem. Are we going to build more units for living quarters at the expense of other economic expansion? Is it possible to get the maximum number of starts and still avoid an inflationary tendency, an increase in the money supply and the economic activity? These are I believe the real problems.
I do not believe we can isolate these economic impacts from a house building 
program. In so far as the planning of a city is concerned, I think we can give consideration to what has happened at Kitimat in British Columbia. The city of Kitimat was built by the Aluminum Company of Canada and planned as a city that would accommodate 50,000 people. If you want to study the housing problem in relation to the whole question of churches, schools, transportation, and so on, I think we have a good example in Kitimat. This is an example of what can be done when you are starting fresh. However, when we have a situation in which a good many people are involved, a lot of expropriation, transport problems, churches, schools, hospitals and so on, then you will not find a solution overnight.
So far as I am concerned these problems are not going to be solved by any stereotyped planning. I think we will find that every town, every area will have to be considered individually because of the climate, soil conditions and other factors such as railways, highways and so on. There are many factors that are going to be involved, so I do not believe we can entertain any stereotyped planning.
I suggest there are two things for which we are striving in connection with housing, and both have been mentioned here. Along with those who are getting new housing, we are also getting economic stimulation. Economic stimulation is there because you have various component parts such as the lumber industry, that is interested in the number of board feet going into any housing plan; the cement, hardware, heating and furnishings. The furnishings are a great part of the economic impact that goes along with any housing program.
I should like to draw attention to one very important point. I feel very strongly on this matter of interest rates. I think there ought to be a steady interest rate. If we are talking about a subsidy at all, I think this is the one place we should give consideration to a steady interest rate. We should give some consideration to what is happening in the United States. I think it is very unfortunate that one person entering into a contract today and another person entering into a contract two months from today should be paying a different percentage in interest. I think we should be giving serious consideration to the establishment of a revolving fund. This idea was advocated in 1954, I think it was, and was discussed before the banking and commerce committee in 1955. It was suggested at that time that a revolving fund be set up for housing and that the operation of this fund should determine the interest rate.

It was suggested at that time and, as I recall it, Graham Towers, the then governor of the Bank of Canada concurred in it, that an interest rate based on the revolving fund, or a service charge, could be more appropriately considered. This would be in the neighbourhood of 1J per cent to 2 per cent of the cost of the money supplied, and I believe this would be a step very much in the right direction and one which would decrease the over-all, long term cost of housing.
It would also have another effect, the effect of the impact on the economy of an extensive housing program. The extent by which we can reduce interest rates, thus reducing the over-all cost of a house after a 20 year period, will have an impact on the actual cost of the whole program, and we could give serious consideration to expanding the number of starts in our housing program without involving the expenditure of any more money. In my view this is important.
We shall have two or three questions to ask when we reach the committee stage, and so I shall conclude my remarks by saying I think the present minister is one in whom we have a great deal of confidence, and we are certainly looking forward to more action in connection with housing.


Mr. Maurice Rinfret (St. James):: Mr. Speaker, the National Housing Act implemented in 1954 has contributed to improve the standard of living of thousands of Canadians and it is essential to continue in that direction.
The government should be congratulated for making available to provinces and municipalities an amount of $100 million for urban redevelopment programs. Governments at every level are responsible for the carrying out of a co-ordinated and progressive slum clearance program implying at the same time a low cost housing program.
In Montreal, civic and provincial authorities, in co-operation with various associations, have designated as an historic district, the south central area of the city.
The new policy of the federal government authorizing loans for the renovation of existing homes will stimulate further the efforts of those who want to keep, as monuments, those old buildings full of souvenirs.
Other cities have already undertaken such a campaign to save our old buildings and they will extend to a greater number of property owners the benefits that C.M.H.C. makes available to them.
Another advantage of that measure is to allow those with modest means to acquire a house which has fallen into disrepair, to re-
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pair it out of the family budget, and to become the owner of an attractive home.
At the present time, it is easy to see that, in great cities, there are sections where houses are in such a poor condition that they look like slums and where living conditions are unacceptable. The new legislation will enable to check the extension of slums in the older sections of our cities. After restoration, these houses will enable low income families to obtain accommodation at a reasonable rent and enjoy the privilege of living in a clean and comfortable house.
I commend the government for the cooperation it wants to give the provinces in building homes for the aged or the people without a family, for its assistance to nonprofitable organizations in order to facilitate the building of houses for low income persons or families.
We appreciate the fact that the program of loans to universities will be continued since that will permit the construction of student residences.
Mr. Speaker, last November, the C.M.H.C. improved French Canadian representation within its ranks by changing the structure of its board and by increasing from four to six the number of its senior officials. Of the six executive directors, two are French Canadians, Messrs. Hector St-Pierre and Jean Paul Lupien. I hope the example set by C.M.H.C. will be followed by other crown corporations and federal departments. With a certain amount of goodwill, it is easy to give French Canadians a more equitable position within the federal civil service.
Anyone who goes over the reports of C.M.H.C. is bound to notice that Quebec does not participate in federal-provincial low rental housing projects. Between January 1, 1948 and October 31, 1962, out of a total 10,870 units built under that program, only 796 were erected in the province of Quebec, that is in the city of Montreal.
In Ontario, 37 municipalities benefited by that legislation. In Quebec, only Montreal took advantage of the program. Quebec municipalities and the provincial department of municipal affairs should co-ordinate their efforts and take full advantage of the National Housing Act in co-operation with Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
It should be remembered that the National Housing Act authorizes the federal government to give financial help to any municipality which has, within its limits, areas where housing conditions can be improved. Through an agreement with a municipality and with the approval of the provincial government concerned, the federal government can contribute 75 per cent of the

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cost of an urban renewal study on the whole city and up to 50 per cent of the cost of a study on any particular area.
If, after those studies, it is decided that an area is in a state of advanced deterioration, the municipality can acquire the existing properties and clear the land for new residential or commercial construction.
The federal government will contribute 50 per cent of the cost of clearing and 75 per cent of the cost for new residential construction. The provincial government is called upon to take part in every agreement by means of a financial contribution and through the services of technicians of the department of municipal affairs. The Quebec minister of municipal affairs is to be commended for the initiative he took on May 27, when he created the "province of Quebec town planning award", to be given each year to the municipality submitting the best town planning program. Such a gesture should give new life to town planning.
Consultation between the town planning services of our municipalities, the municipal affairs department of each province and the directors of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will improve living conditions for a greater number of Canadians.


Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldl-Melforl-Tisdale):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks will be very short but I have a different case to present than most other members. As everybody knows, a lot of potash developments are taking place at present in Saskatchewan, and although the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation had given consideration to providing loans for housing where towns close to these potash mines needed them, nevertheless they have not gone as far in this direction as I and many others think desirable. I will mention, as an example, one town-the town of Lanigan. In Lanigan, or a few miles outside it, they are sinking a shaft and within a short time hundreds of people will be moving in. Before the potash mine comes into production new buildings and new houses will be going up-shops, businesses, schools, and so on. Later, hospitals will be required. But if these people cannot arrange a deal with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation we may run into a situation similar to that which developed in the town of Esterhazy where a potash mine is now in operation. This town grew by 150 per cent, if not 200 per cent after work on the sinking of the shaft was begun, but no co-ordinated planning was undertaken and virtually no houses were built by arrangement with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-although I must say the corporation is prepared to give the same deal to Lanigan as to larger cities.
[Mr. Rinfret.l
Nevertheless, the limitations when dealing with one-industry towns still exist, and the corporation can go no further.
I believe the provincial government will be visiting Ottawa again to discuss this problem with officials of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. At the present time, as I say, they are doing as much as I suppose they are allowed to do under the existing regulations. The company itself is, probably, prepared to guarantee C.M.H.C. loans taken out by its own employees. But this town is concerned about those who are not employees of the company and who also have housing needs, and I should like the minister to assure us that consideration will be given to providing loans for business people and even municipalities in these circumstances. I should like the government to take another look at this situation together with the provincial government, and representatives of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in an effort to work out some suitable arrangement, because this is a serious matter. If we were only concerned with the situation during the sinking of the potash shaft, perhaps the situation would be tolerable; but we must think in terms of three or four years time, perhaps even less than that, when the mine comes into production and the need arises for many homes, additional business, hospitals, new schools and so forth. According to the planning done by the provincial government it is estimated that within six or eight years this town will grow to a population of approximately 8,000, as compared with the present population of 1,000. One can imagine what will happen if there are opportunities for these people to work, but no means by which they can obtain loans reasonably so as to build homes and put up all the other buildings which will be necessary. Lanigan could develop into a shacktown, if Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation do not change the regulation.
I am sure the departmental officials are familiar with this case because I have made representations more than once on this subject. I must say they were very co-operative and that they understood the situation very well. But they can only go as far as the act will allow. The government finds itself in a similar situation, I believe, at the present time. I was given to understand that in the very near future this question would be taken up again. I may say that there is more than one company involved. At the present time there are about 20 companies with interests in the province. The big future which lies ahead for potash means that more of these companies will be prepared to go ahead with plans for development. As a matter of fact,

I know of one company which had no intention of sinking a shaft until a short while ago. They have now made up their minds and they intend to sink a shaft, too. It will not be far away from Lanigan-one is to the east and the other is to the west.
So, without holding up proceedings any further, I should like to repeat that consideration has been given to these problems up to a certain point, but that the action taken has not gone as far as is desired and it would be most helpful to these small communities if more could be done. Should the minister need any additional information I am sure he will be able to obtain it from his officials because they are familiar with this matter.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Question?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for Grey-Bruce (Mr. Winkler).


Eric Alfred Winkler: I will defer to the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) if he wishes to speak, inasmuch as a speaker from our side had the floor previously.


Mr. J. E. Lloyd (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to yield the floor if there is any agreement that the house should afterwards proceed to give second reading to this bill, but I understand there are to be other speakers and perhaps, in the circumstances, in view of the observations made by the hon. member for Grey-Bruce, I might make some remarks on this subject.
This is indeed a piece of legislation with which, I am sure, everybody agrees. All I have heard so far are statements substantially in support of the bill. Statements have been made by spokesmen for the opposition to the effect that this is the kind of thing they had in mind. May I assure every member of the house that as a member of the mayors federation of Canada before I came to this place I recall appearing on several occasions over a period of three years before members of the cabinet to advocate legislation of this kind, not in its precise detail but as far as the broad principles are concerned. I think you will find, Mr. Speaker, that every mayor and every alderman of a municipality who has a genuine interest in the clearance of slums, in the prevention of the spread of blight and in the rebuilding of worn out downtown areas will be anxious for this house to proceed with the legislation now before us. It has been a long awaited and urgently needed measure. At the municipal level of government it will assist them to do the job they wish to accomplish, in co-operation with the national government and the federal government, so as
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to bring about a betterment of social conditions in the housing field. They want to make a contribution to the economic health of Canada by redeveloping blighted and worn out commercial areas.
We all see a new opportunity for employment in the capital goods sector of our economy. We find an opportunity here, while engaging in a social act, to provide employment for people in the building trades, both on the site and off the site, in the plants which produce building materials throughout the entire region of Canada. We also want to prepare for what everyone tells us is an increasing density of population in the urban areas of Canada. If the prognostications of our economists are correct, we will need this kind of urban renewal program on its way as rapidly as possible, because they tell us-I think they are substantially in agreement and I do not think anybody challenges this kind of economic thought-that more and more people in this world are finding a need to locate jobs and positions in the servicing sector of the economy, as compared with the productive side of economic activity, due first of all to population growth and second to the fact of automation in industry. So it is an inescapable fact that around the urban areas you will find continuing the oft described population explosion.
The bill attempts to make its contribution to the desires of the municipalities and the provinces by rewording the provisions of the act which have to do with the areas in which the federal government, through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, may participate. In the previous statute, as I understand it, there was some restriction with regard to the kind of area in which Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation could participate. I refer to that particular section which required that there be a substantial quantity of housing. I believe the present proposal will remove that particular restrictive clause. While it requires comprehensive planning, I believe it will remove that particular clause and enable the clearance of blighted commercial districts as well as blighted slum areas. This would be a great encouragement to those at the municipal level of government who found from their planning advisers that you could not hope to accomplish a good urban renewal program if you confined yourself to a very narrow block of clearance, and it would require a much more expanded area if you wished to encourage redevelopment in the region of residential as well as commercial redevelopment.
Then the proposal to assist financially the municipalities in providing the capital for their share of the programs in the field of urban renewal will also be welcomed. But the

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act, if you read it carefully, as it did before, attempts to encourage what is called comprehensive planning. What this means really is that the Canadian government, in giving assistance to municipalities through and with the co-operation of the provinces, want to be sure that the end objectives will be reached, and when we talk about the need for comprehensive planning in an act of this kind we are referring to proper land use plans, which are the product of some very serious and extensive planning by competent planning authorities. It means the existence of legislation which compels the observance of minimum standards. It certainly requires housing outside the area projected for redevelopment being subjected to examination to make sure that the blighted conditions will not develop outside the area being redeveloped. This requires a very rigid application of minimum standard laws at the municipal level of government. It also requires, in this field of so-called comprehensive planning, some very informed and extensive studies of the economic base from which the region derives its growth and development. Without that knowledge you might very well undertake a clearance program and then find land which you have cleared lying undeveloped for some years to come.
This observation of mine derives from a comment made by one hon. member this afternoon who was talking about the need for a ministry of housing. If he meant by this that we need to increase our interest in this field under whatever minister it may come, I heartily agree. As a matter of fact, comprehensive planning for a city requires a knowledge and understanding of the economics of the region in which it is located, and it requires some comprehensive planning of the entire region around it. This brings you into an understanding of what is the comprehensive planning of the ARDA program to be, and how it relates to developments within urban areas. I suggest that the two fields of activity, at least with respect to general, overall planning of land usage, are involved with the same kind of problem. So if we pass this legislation, the municipalities will have the challenge back in their hands to attack the bad social conditions of bad housing; to meet the challenge of helping to provide employment in the capital goods sector by redevelopment; and they will have to meet the challenge of preparing for the future growth and development of their urban areas by virtue of a population explosion which will continue because of the economic realities of our time.
Some reference was made by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) to the need

for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation activities being expanded in the northern parts of Canada. I think this is a separate problem. Here the hon. member is talking about the need for government policy in urging, assisting and encouraging proper housing development in those great northern areas. This is really what you might call new development as distinct from redevelopment. There is no question that this requires the attention of government. However, I was pleased to find a member of the opposition appealing to the minister to give his attention to it, because no doubt he made the same appeal to the government he supported in the past few years, and had failed to achieve any success in this regard. Now he turns to the new minister and hopes this government will achieve the success which his government failed to obtain previously. In this regard, Mr. Speaker, I welcome his observation. I think I can assure him that this government will co-operate in reaching the objectives and solutions which he says are so badly needed.
Some reference was made by another hon. member to giving credit to Winnipeg for leading the way. I think I would be remiss in my duty, representing the constituency of Halifax, if I did not draw attention to the fact that in 1957 we began with a program, 75 per cent financed by the federal government, to make a study of the Halifax region. Then came a major clearance project; this was followed by building some 340 units and rehousing displaced people, and this was followed by development proposals being called for, not only from Canada but throughout the world. Then only a few weeks ago did we have an agreement signed for a redevelopment project amounting to some $35 million of new commercial and housing construction in that older city of Canada. In this regard, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to say that Halifax is in the vanguard in this connection, and received in this respect the cooperation of the former government and the former minister of finance, the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings (Mr. Nowlan) who is sitting opposite. I am sure that the government which is now in office will extend the same co-operation to all areas which have comprehensive plans and which have real, genuine needs to be met. I am sure such areas will receive the co-operation of this government to at least an equal degree, if not to a greater degree, than that accorded those seeking it on previous occasions.


Mr. Winch:: Could I ask the hon. gentleman a question?


John Edward Lloyd: Certainly.


Harold Edward Winch: A few moments ago I gathered that the words of the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) were to the effect that the passage of this bill would be a challenge thrown back to the municipalities to take action. May I ask the hon. member whether, in his opinion, the passage of this bill would in any way remove the red tape and roadblocks which, if my information is correct, stalemated the city council of Halifax at the time when the hon. member was his worship the mayor?


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, my experience was that you removed the red tape and the so-called roadblocks by first informing yourself of what were your responsibilities. Then when you were fully knowledgeable of the problem with which you were dealing, you could easily get the co-operation you required. Granted, there were misunderstandings. This kind of legislation now before us did not exist. Had it existed we would have advanced much more rapidly. That is why I welcome this kind of legislation.


Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate the attention of the house on this matter for a few moments. I was very interested in the remarks of the previous speaker, the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd), about the days when he was chief magistrate in the city, and how he negotiated the first piece of business for that city with regard to the act in 1957. I understand he suggested the renewal of the arrangement for additional consideration. This, it seems to me, shows the flexibility and general ability of Canadians in political life to get along, because I understand his successor in office today is of another political faith, which makes the entire situation balance out beautifully.
I also noted that the hon. member for St. Jacques (Mr. Rinfret) made mention of the situation with regard to taxation and the relief which would be given to certain areas in the province of Quebec. I suggest to the minister that the time is now here when, in considering suggestions which have been put forward on a national basis, the government should give consideration to allowing as an exemption from taxable income the interest paid on mortgages. The reason I say that to the minister, through you, Mr. Speaker, is that we are again entering a period of inflation. We are at a period in our economy when taxation is becoming terribly burdensome. In most cases I think we will find that this legislation has been, and will be in the future, of great benefit to the workers of the country, who are the backbone of the economy. In an era of inflation and high
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taxation I think consideration should be given to this particular suggestion so that these people will be in a better economic position, because they are the ones who spend the money and who keep our economy rolling. I think the minister would be well advised to take this suggestion under consideration at the earliest opportunity.
As has been stated, the amendments to the act in general terms are an extension of what had been provided previously by the former government. At this point I must say in reply to the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) that I too had reason, as did other people, to make representations to the previous government when I felt it was necessary. I do not want him to feel that is anything out of the ordinary course today. We will continue to do so. Like the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch), who might have included me in his remarks, I too am one of those who would be very grateful for the elimination of red tape which causes great annoyance and frustration to many people.
In this connection I have another matter to bring to the attention of the minister. The office which has jurisdiction over the constituency I have the honour to represent is coming under severe criticism now because one of the inspectors from that office does not offer in a co-operative way the services which are meant to be provided for the Canadian public, services which are meant to be provided for people taking advantage of this legislation. These departments are set up for the benefit of the country and the citizens, and no one man from these offices-I realize they are all human, as are the rest of us- should go out of his way to make the functioning of this act difficult in any area over which he has jurisdiction. But this has been the case. Let me assure the minister that I will not go into specifics in this particular instance because I think that the fewer the people who suffer prejudice the better, and I am sure the matter will be taken care of in due course.
With regard to the terms of the amendments, I believe that the adjustment in thinking regarding support for loans on older homes has resulted in a very excellent measure. It is one of those measures which I supported long before there was a change in government, and this thinking was under way at the time, I am convinced. However, there is one difficulty in the current amendments, and it concerns the designation provision. I feel that the benefits of this amendment should apply across the board without any provision for designation. We have now had some experience of designated areas by government, and it seems to me that we must be very careful

Income Tax Act
in the way we consider the proposal which is before us at this time.
May I call it five o'clock.


Mr. MacNaughi:: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether we could carry on for a few minutes to see if we could finish the debate?


Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, I could easily finish in a very few minutes but there are one or two speakers from this side who are preparing their remarks now.


Gilles Grégoire: Filibustering.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: Order. It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely notices of motions.



INCOME TAX ACT


Erik Nielsen: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of amending the Income Tax Act so that Canadian taxpayers residing in the high-cost northerly areas of Canada be allowed an increased personal exemption to that now allowed under the Income Tax Act in order to:
(1)	encourage and accelerate population growth in Canada's northern areas;
(2)	assist in creating a permanent population in Canada's north;
(3)	remove the discriminatory tax burden which now exists as between the northern Canadian taxpayer and those taxpayers living in the more southerly areas of Canada; and
(4)	eliminate the hardship now caused to families in the lower income group now residing, and to reside, in Canada's northern areas.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it will probably come as no surprise to hon. members to learn that the subject matter of this resolution was considered by treasury board in 1955, 1956 and 1957 during the last years of the Liberal government of that time. The evidence indicating this emerged in the discussions of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters in 1959, I believe.
The resolution is based on four premises: First, that it is desirable to encourage population growth in that 40 per cent of Canada lying above the 60th parallel and, indeed, the northerly portions of the provinces of Canada; second, that it is desirable as a principle to create a permanent population in Canada's northland as opposed to accepting the transitory growth to which the north has been subjected over the years; third, that there does exist discrimination in the tax burden which is now borne by residents of southern Canada compared with that borne by those who live in the more northerly areas of Canada; fourth, that there is recognition

that there does exist hardship with respect to families in the lower income group who reside in Canada's north.
When I spoke earlier this afternoon I had occasion to refer to the higher costs of construction. Where a home can be constructed for $10,000 in the more southerly centres of Canada, that same home will cost $14,000 in the more northerly areas of Canada above the 60th parallel. Food costs in northern Canada, expressed in terms of percentage, are some 27 per cent higher than they are in the more southerly areas of Canada.
The government itself recognizes that it does cost more to live in Canada's north because several years ago they established the principle of compensating civil servants for the loss of wages that would occur by reason of the higher cost of living in the northerly areas as a result of their being required to move there. If a Department of Transport employee, an employee of the Department of National Defence or, indeed, an employee of any department of the government was required to move from say Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto or some other city to Whitehorse, Dawson City, Yellowknife, Inuvik or Alert, the government recognized that it would cost that civil servant more to live in those northerly areas. Therefore the government implemented a system of compensation known as isolated post allowances, which is still in existence.
Isolated post allowances are based on the assessment of four basic living factors as opposed to living in the southerly areas of Canada. The government takes into account the difference in cost of heating and lighting in the north as opposed to southern centres. The government also takes into consideration when paying these allowances the difference in the cost of food. This is a separate factor. In paying these isolated post allowances the government also takes into account factors of isolation, such as whether or not there are those social amenities available in the north as are available in the more southerly areas of Canada.
Upon these factors various positions in the north are graded, and in the case of a married man a maximum of $2,600 over and above his basic pay and allowances as a civil servant is paid to the civil servant who is posted to the north. Mind you, that civil servant still pays income tax on his isolated post allowance, and this has been a matter of complaint on the part of the civil servant for several years. On the one hand, the government pays him an allowance to compensate him for the difference in the cost of living in the north and, on the other hand, takes it away in the form of income tax. It has been argued, and supported by several

public organizations in the north, that the same principle should be applied not only to civil servants who live in the northerly areas of Canada but also to other Canadians, because those other Canadians who are carrying out jobs on all fours with those of civil servants in the north are subjected to the same increased costs of living as the civil servant.
If the government recognizes the principle of paying isolation allowances to civil servants in the north, I suggest there is a good deal of merit to the argument that the same principle should be applied to all Canadians who live in northern Canada. Otherwise, instead of encouraging a permanent population growth, which in turn would stabilize the economy of northern Canada, a desirable objective, what we have is a transitory population, people who go to the north for a year or two years, perhaps longer but not much, and who then move away because they find they cannot cope with the increased cost of living. Only those members of the northern communities who are in the middle or upper income brackets find it comfortable to live in Canada's north.
This is one of the reasons why I suggested to the Postmaster General (Mr. Nicholson) that in revising the National Housing Act specific attention should be paid to existing northern conditions which prohibit buildings of a standard comparable to those in southern areas. Because of the pioneer and undeveloped nature of Canada's north it is essential that the government consider all national legislation in the light of northern conditions.
There are those who will say that the Income Taxt Act is a national act and therefore must have national application. Those who say this will put forward the view that if an increased personal income tax exemption is granted to northern residents justification can also be found to apply the same tax alleviation to people in Newfoundland and the maritimes, because their individual income earning capacity is less than that of people in Ontario. In the light of the greater unemployment in the province of Quebec, I suppose the same argument can be said to apply particularly there.
But this resolution is based fundamentally on the premise that it is desirable to develop Canada's northland so that it can make its full contribution toward national development. There are many today who took upon Canada's north in the same light as the opponents of the construction of the railroad to the west coast looked upon the western part of this country at that time. My friend, the member for the Northwest Territories (Mr. Rheaume) mentions Great Slave lake.
I can recall the vote in this house at that time
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when those who now sit on the government side voted against the construction of that railway.
Then, I saw a very interesting article in the Montreal Gazette reporting on a meeting the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Laing) addressed in Vancouver, a meeting of the Vancouver chamber of commerce, which indicated that the minister, at least as one occupant of the government benches, had caught the vision. He has caught something of the vision that had been so much ridiculed and derided by members on that side when they were in opposition. According to this newspaper article the minister had caught a vision which they described as a booming vision, which is indeed encouraging, particularly in the light of the vote on the Pine Point railroad, which hon. members did not seem to think was a good idea, and in the light of a certain pattern that seems to be emerging so far as northern development is concerned, since this government has been in office.
I will be quite candid and say that I endeavoured, as the committee will show, to have this matter reconsidered by treasury board, at the time the standing committee on mines, forests and waters was sitting in 1958-59. However, I did not receive too much encouragement at that time. I am hoping that if the minister has really caught the vision, as I think he would like to do-but I feel he is prevented from doing so by his colleagues in the cabinet-then I can count on him for support. I see his parliamentary secretary is in his seat, and I hope he will participate in this debate in support of this motion. I can inform the parliamentary secretary, as I am sure he knows after travelling in the north, this motion is supported by every northern resident. They are up there as the caretakers for Canada, the caretakers for 40 per cent of Canada, and if the proper approach is used this northern part of the country will make a substantial contribution to national growth.
One way in which we can encourage the growth and development of that part of the country is to adopt a policy for attracting people. The potential is there. The mining potential is there, and I do not think anybody will disagree with that, least of all the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources or anyone else associated with him in his department. Certainly he is selling this idea of northern development to private investment, but the government has a part to play. We had a policy when this party was in office, a policy of partnership, whereby government and private industry worked hand in hand in the development of the Canadian north. A pattern seems to be

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emerging now, and the position is that private enterprise seems to have the major part of the responsibility. Being a northener, I am of the positive opinion that government has a very definite part to play in the building of the north, and that is to create an atmosphere which will attract investment.
The manner in which the government creates that atmosphere is subject to varying points of view. I feel that the program which was followed by this party when it held office proved that long range programs for the establishment of communications, the construction of highways and the like, will assist in creating an atmosphere that will attract the necessary investment to open northern Canada. One of the best methods for attracting that investment and creating the atmosphere which will be conducive to the permanent development of the north is to make it a desirable place in which to live, to equalize the cost of living in the north with the cost of living in similar southerly areas. We do not have all the social amenities that exist in Ottawa, Vancouver and Winnipeg. These differences can be borne by the northern resident if his living conditions are reasonably comfortable and if he knows that the contribution he is making as a pioneer is being appreciated by the rest of Canada, and particularly by the government.
One of the methods which I suggest in the resolution is to equalize the tax treatment of northern residents. As I have said, treasury board refused to give such serious consideration to northern areas. However, the merits of this resolution indicate it is something that just cannot be sloughed off by the house or by the government. It may be that the government and the house are not prepared to accept this resolution and I have every reason to expect it will be talked out tonight. Perhaps there is justification for this, because it is something the house cannot accept within the space of one hour. I suggest to the government however that they resubmit the merits of this resolution to the treasury board in the light of the remarks made here and in the committee as well. I suggest they assess it in the light of the remarks that have been made in the various sessions of the Yukon legislative council and, although I have not checked them I am sure my hon. friend will, in the light of the remarks that have been made in the council of the Northwest Territories. I hope the parliamentary secretary to the minister will speak on the motion and give some indication of the government's feeling. Perhaps the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) will speak as well. I should like to hear from my friend, the hon. member for the Northwest Territories. I do not want

to occupy more of the time of the house, so I would commend to the house the merits of the resolution in the hope the government will see its way clear to investigate fully the suggestions set forth in the resolution.


Mr. Turner:: May I ask the hon. member a question? I notice that he suggests as one of the purposes of the resolution the elimination of hardships, for families of lower income groups. I should like to ask him whether or not the increasing of the exemption for personal income tax in the north would be of any help to the great majority of people in the north, the Eskimos and Indians, who are not earning sufficient money to come within the income tax provisions?


Erik Nielsen: Well, this gets to the root of the formula which would accomplish the objective set forth in the resolution. I purposely steered clear of suggesting a formula to the house because treasury board considered several possibilities. One possibility considered was basing such exemption on the same principle as the isolated post allowances are based, namely a sliding scale whereby at Alert full isolated post allowance amounts to $2,600 for a married man, whereas in Whitehorse a married man receives $1,140 as isolated post allowance. This is one formula. There was another formula under which every worker would receive a flat exemption of 25 per cent of the tax payable. This, perhaps, would not accomplish the equality that is implicit in the hon. gentleman's question, but the formula on the sliding scale would accomplish that objective.
I am not going to complicate matters by suggesting a formula this afternoon because I am sure the capabilities of the personnel making up treasury board

I am not speaking of the cabinet personnel but rather the civil service personnel-are much greater than my own, and if any formula is devisable it is those civil servants, highly qualified as they are, who are best suited to devise it.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask the hon. member a question because I am inclined to be rather sympathetic to the principle of his motion. As he appears to have some knowledge of what goes on in treasury board, is he in a position to give the house any explanation as to why treasury board, under the previous government, rejected the principle of what he has now in mind?


Erik Nielsen: I assure the hon. member I have no knowledge that he does not have of what goes on in treasury board, but while the evidence was being taken in 1958-59, in the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, if the hon, gentleman will refer to the evidence of the then deputy minister of

northern affairs, Mr. Gordon Robertson, he will see he set out the reasons there, perhaps not fully, but certainly sufficient to indicate why treasury board did not accept the resolution.
My recollection is that one of the reasons given was that the Income Tax Act is a national act; it must have national application and there can be no difference of treatment between people who live in Vancouver and Halifax, and people who live in Inuvik and Whitehorse. I am suggesting that exceptions can be made and that we can set different standards in different parts of the country, as we did with the National Housing Act and other pieces of national legislation.


Harold Edward Winch: Would you also extend this principle not only to the Yukon and the Northwest Territories but to Labrador and Ungava?


Erik Nielsen: Yes, the isolated post allowances system is not confined to areas above the 60th parallel. It is applicable to isolated positions as such, and is paid at several points below the 60th parallel in northern parts of the provinces, and my suggestion would be applicable to where isolated post allowances are properly paid. I do not want anybody to get the idea that I am against these allowances, because they bring the pay of a civil servant up to what it would be if he had been in a southern area. In areas where recognized hardship exists, and is recognized by the government, I am suggesting the same principle should apply to all citizens in those areas.


Mr. Benson:: Could I ask the hon. member a question?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):: I can understand the hon. member's desire to ask a question, but the time allotted to the hon. member for Yukon has expired.


John Edward Lloyd: Mr. Speaker, I rise to comment on this motion because some reference has been made by a comparison to a situation existing in the maritimes. I can only assume that the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) was referring to recent proposals to exempt companies and business entrepeneurs, willing to build industries in designated areas, from income tax for a period of years, and I suppose he was hoping to find some analogy to the situation he was describing in the north.
It is only fair to point out that the policy of the government in this regard to designated areas, wherever they may be, is to attempt to take advantage of existing capital investment by municipalities in schools, in public services such as sewer systems and water systems, indeed in a variety of public services, and to
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take advantage of a variety of public investment which could be well lost without this stimulant. It is a different kind of thing to talk about government policy with respect to encouraging redevelopment of a declining area with large capital investment, than it is to talk about opening up the development of a new territory and encouraging development there.
The hon. member has set forth some very worth-while objectives to be attained on behalf of the district he represents. Nobody can quarrel with these objectives, but it is the inadequacy of the tool with which he proposes to achieve them which bothers me. He hopes to encourage and accelerate population growth in northern areas by the simple device of a personal tax exemption.


Erik Nielsen: Among others.


John Edward Lloyd: He does not say "among others" in his motion, and I must speak to his motion upon which I presume he has spent very careful thought. Within the limits of his understanding he has come up with a suggestion that may provide some answers. I am trying to help the hon. member perform his job a little better by pointing out to him that there is certainly nothing wrong with suggesting that people who find an opportunity in Canada's north to develop a resource will certainly examine the economics of the development before investing their private capital, and will find they must pay incentives to attract skilled workers to the region. You will find that the operator who knows what he is doing will attempt to fix his salary rates at a point where, after income tax, they will be attractive to the kind of skills he wants in that region.
There may be exceptions to this general rule, but generally speaking, if we have any kind of good common sense in the management of the private enterprise sector of our economy, the end result is bound to be that wage and salary levels will be fixed at that point where the private entrepreneur calculates he can induce the skills he requires for his particular undertaking in the north region.
I have no quarrel with the hon. member when he suggests that civil servants who are faced with additional costs in the north, and with expenses which they would not normally meet in the developed central and southern parts of Canada, should be adequately compensated to put them into a position of equivalence with their fellow civil servants in the particular department in which they happen to be engaged. There is no quarrel with that; but I think you can accomplish more for the development of the resources of the north in other ways, and;

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with much more adequate tools of government at your command, tools that can be employed to accomplish these objectives.
We are learning much about the economic bases of regions. Only today we were discussing the matter of urban renewal. You cannot have good urban renewal development unless you undertake some practical studies of the economic base of the blighted region which you are redeveloping, and the same thing is true of the northern sectors of this country.
Preceding development, there must be economic feasibility to the development of a resource, and you must be able to demonstrate this to investors, whether it be investors from government in the field of social capital, or whether it be private entrepreneurs who invest their money and take the risks. This means a pretty extensive and well developed examination of a resource in a practical way, if one hopes to encourage and accelerate population growth in Canada's northern areas. You just do not put people there and then keep them there. There must be opportunities for work and employment.
Similar proposals have been brought forward from time to time over the years. In fact the hon. member referred to this being before treasury board in 1957, or in 1956.


Erik Nielsen: It has never been before the house before.


John Edward Lloyd: It may not have been, but I would suggest to the hon. member that the proper place to bring the proposal is before the house. I put it to him: Why was it not brought before the house between 1958 and 1963? I do not know why. He had an opportunity in those five years to do so. I presume he tried, and I assume he will explain why he was not successful. He is always anxious to tell us about our shortcomings on this side of the house but I find he is inflicted with the same blindness as he accuses us of possessing.


Erik Nielsen: On a question of privilege, I was my unusually nice self this afternoon and I did not accuse the government of any shortcomings in this regard. Indeed, I said quite frankly I had endeavoured to raise this matter when I was on the other side of the house, and if the hon. member will read the record-


John Edward Lloyd: I appreciate the entirely gratuitous comments of the hon. member for Yukon. They suggest to me that he believes he can hope for more to be accomplished in the way of financial assistance in the development of northern Canada by making representations to this side of the house than by any steps he might have taken when he was
IMr. Lloyd.]
a government supporter, and it is for that reason he was so gracious on this occasion.


Erik Nielsen: There has been no evidence of it yet.


John Edward Lloyd: Besides, I am only a backbencher. When you get down to the benches in front, there are men of great experience and ability to whom the hon. member can make his plea.
I understand the research staff of the royal commission is now examining this question and it is possible that the commission in its report will deal with the subject. I have no indication of the views of the commission, but I am informed that some former ministers of finance were not convinced of the efficacy of this proposal. This motion seems to assume that a person residing in northern Canada is at the present time being discriminated against under the income tax law as compared with a person living in southern Canada. He bases this on the assertion that a resident of northern Canada must incur higher costs which are not recognized by the income tax legislation. This would seem to suggest that personal exemptions under the Income Tax Act be directly related to some basic cost of living index, and increased where costs exceed a certain basic amount. I think this is the idea the hon. member was struggling with. If this were done, it would follow in logic and in equity that exemptions should be increased not only with respect to such high cost areas as there may be in the north but also with respect to high cost areas elsewhere in Canada, such as the larger metropolitan areas. There is certainly a notable differential in school teachers salaries in metropolitan areas as compared with areas outside. May I say that anybody who has served on a city council and who has dealt with tax matters knows there is a vast differential between salaries paid in metropolitan areas as compared with those outside the borders.
Presumably the exemptions would have to be established annually as a result of cost of living studies. Such a change would create anomalies which would bring the tax system into disrepute, cause confusion to taxpayers and tax collectors alike, and result in a significant reduction in revenue. If you need the revenue, then obviously if you forgo it in one place you have to find it somewhere else. Nowhere in the statement made by the hon. member was any suggestion made as to how the lost revenue would be made up, unless he thought that with the development of our northern resources there would be sufficient yield to the Canadian economy to make it worth while. If that is what he had in mind, I think he should have said so. But the hon.

member certainly did not say so in the course of his observations on the resolution. If the principle of relating the personal exemptions to the cost of living in particular areas were adopted and followed to its logical conclusion it might be reasonable to lower the exemptions for taxpayers who resided in low cost areas. I am sure most hon. members know from experience that some of these low cost areas are not at all remote from municipalities in which living costs are quite high. It seems to me that to allow different exemption levels to taxpayers in the same province, or indeed in the same country would be completely unacceptable, yet such a system would be almost inevitable if personal exemptions were tied to area living costs.
The motion alleges that the additional allowance would eliminate the hardship caused to families in the lower income group now residing in Canada's northern areas. I suggest that it would not have this result and, in fact, by increasing the disposable incomes of the taxpayers in the higher income brackets it might eventually drive prices higher, thus penalizing their less fortunate neighbours. Even if the change suggested in the motion could be confined to certain defined high-cost northern areas it would be of no help to people in the very low income groups, because they are not taxable.


Erik Nielsen: Would the hon. member permit a question? Is he expressing the views of the Liberal government?


John Edward Lloyd: I very seldom have an opportunity on this side of the house to take part in our discussions-


John George Diefenbaker: Why?


John Edward Lloyd: It is because of the traditions of this house; a recognition of the opposition members. But the frequency with which the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) wishes in a pedantic way to display his knowledge of all things at all times in this house convinces me that he has already spent enough time on his feet. I suggest he needs to do a little more research work in his office so as to avoid wasting the time of the house.
I was saying that even if the change suggested could be confined to certain high cost areas it would not help people in the very low income groups, because they are not taxable anyway. Also it would give the greatest dollar relief to the wealthiest income taxpayers, and the least to the low income taxpayers. I do not think the hon. member realized this when he hastily put together his notes in support of this resolution to indicate his concern about the development of the Yukon-
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Erik Nielsen: Of the north.


John Edward Lloyd: -or of the north, as, I agree, he should be concerned. The motion also seems to assume that the higher costs said to be incurred by residents of northern Canada are not at present compensated for to a greater or lesser degree by higher remuneration in the form of salaries, wages, special allowances or fees that would be paid or charged in lower cost areas. I doubt if this should be assumed. Although I appreciate the problems referred to in the motion, I believe that the solution suggested would be neither practicable nor fair.
I will say this in conclusion: I do not quarrel with the objective, which is to encourage and accelerate the growth of population in Canada's northland. It seems to me however that proposals of the kind now being put forward are no substitute for the painstaking research work which is going on in the department of northern affairs and in the other departments of government. The hon. member for Yukon seems amused at this need for practical engineering studies designed to accelerate population growth in the north. I suggest it cannot be brought about by such a flimsy measure as the hon. member is proposing.


Erik Nielsen: Ever been there?


John Edward Lloyd: It shows that the hon. member is more concerned with publicizing his own image than with accomplishing the purpose he has in mind.


Bert Raymond Leboe: As there are only 20 minutes left I will not take the time of the house for very long.
I have listened with a great deal of interest to the words of the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) and of the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. I think we should give credit to the hon. member for Yukon for bringing this matter to the attention of the house. I think it is a problem which certainly does confront the people who live in our northern areas.
There are, without doubt, some forms of relief which are given to the people in the northerly areas of the provinces. Speaking particularly of British Columbia I can refer to one important form of relief-the fact that we now have an equalization of power rates which makes electricity available at the same rates whether it is used, say, in Fort Nelson or whether it is used in the Vancouver area.
Consideration is being given, and I hope it will result in something being done in this respect, to the question of petroleum products. I would hope that the equalization of the cost of petroleum products, gasoline, fuel oil, and

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so on, would be a reality in British Columbia within a matter of a year or two. Certainly there is a great deal of work being done in that regard now, and I hope we will get to the point where this work will bear fruit. Other considerations are also given, in the form of freight rates on the provincially owned railroad.
The federal government, in the conduct of their affairs in relation to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, have a particular responsibility to the people in those areas, and certainly they are going to have to find some way of solving this problem of equality, whether this is done by subsidized freight rates, by tax concessions-as is outlined in this resolution-or by some other form of compensation. Certainly the people who live in these northern areas are being discriminated against with regard to their cost of living. They are the pioneers who are opening up the country; they are moving as a vanguard into the far reaches of Canada and are developing very, very valuable raw materials and national resources. We would hope that the government, in giving consideration to the motion moved by the hon. member, will see fit to look at all the avenues in which relief can be given to these people who have taken it upon themselves to weather the hardships of the hard winters and the long nights. We would hope the government will be aware of their particular problems and will therefore bend themselves very, very urgently to providing some relief to these people who are pioneering the northern developments.


Mr. Gene Rheaume (Northwest Territories):: Mr. Speaker, if I may-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Is the hon. member rising on a question of privilege, or a point of order?


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on this resolution, if the opportunity were given to me.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The hon. member for
Northwest Territories (Mr. Rheaume).


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Mr. Speaker, it was a
wonderful experience for me to be present this afternoon as the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) delved into his extensive knowledge of northern conditions.


Erik Nielsen: His abysmal knowledge.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: I feel a bit like a midwife at a time like this. I noticed the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Turner) smile with that great birth joy that swept over him as another great expert on northern affairs on the government benches was born. I
[Mr. Lehoe.l
would suggest we have an excellent example today of one of the reasons the northern people are pessimistic when they look to the present government to try and get anything done, and I sincerely urge the Liberal government to get rid of this vague sort of belief they have, that they need do nothing for the country at all but just remain in power, and that by some strange alchemy the ordinary people of the country are going to be more prosperous because of it. Come off it, I say to them; quit pretending God is some kind of Grit to work wonders, and you need do nothing. The government's record in the north has never been good; it has never shown any enthusiasm, any interest or any understanding. One need only think back a few years to that slogan of roads from igloo to igloo, which was designed to ridicule a very important program; or one has only to look back to a couple of months ago to the shoddy handling of the Eskimos in northern Quebec. This government is quite prepared to put them on the bargaining table and play some kind of Ungava roulette with Mr. Levesque.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. May I please remind the hon. member that we are dealing with a resolution listed as No. 23 on the order paper.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: Certainly, Mr. Speaker; I am attempting to show that the government need not be complacent about what it has done in the north, and when a resolution does come along that offers some hope for making some important changes, they should consider it seriously and not subject it to the facetious and frivolous kind of statements that were made a little earlier by a member who supports the government.
We are perhaps a little pessimistic, too, when we realize that this resolution must be considered initially by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon), whose record of enthusiasm for the Canadian north leaves something to be desired. I have in my hand the report of the royal commission which looked into tax incentives, among other things-


Erik Nielsen: And the Gordon commission.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: -and the Gordon commission, certainly, on the prospects. We do not need to be very complacent about what kind of a reception anything to do with the Canadian north will get from the Minister of Finance. The minister, however, has written several books. No one has ever accused him of actually practising what he writes, or even believing in it himself; but I recommend this particular resolution to him and urge the government honestly and sincerely to consider it.
I for one do not take responsibility for anything that went on in this chamber prior to

April 8, 1963, and I am not prepared to be put off by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) who, after 14 months of Liberal regime says, "Well, you fellows didn't do anything either" and adopts that kind of approach. I am not prepared to accept that, and I urge the newest of our northern experts not to say these things around the country about an important resolution like this.
I want to add my support in the strongest possible terms, as a northerner, for the principle that is recommended in resolution No. 23 and I want to urge the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Benson) to give it some consideration and not dispense with it out of hand.


Erik Nielsen: Too bad the minister isn't here.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: I want to offer a few suggestions as to how it might be done, and how it might be done easily. Some reasons are listed in the resolution, or are obvious from its wording, but there are some others and I want to speak for just a moment about two of them. I am going to leave plenty of time for the house to approve the resolution, if that is its wish.


Erik Nielsen: John is going to talk it out.


Eugène (Gene) Rhéaume: The first important reason, I think, was touched on by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) when he said the government has implemented a special program of allowances for federal officers in the Canadian north. This allowance gives upwards of $2,100 a year in addition to basic salary. The northern allowance, as it has come to be called in the country, is received monthly as a part of the pay cheque of federal government employees. They pay income tax on it, but that particular additional bonus is a recognition of higher costs in that part of the country. I can recall a few years back when I lived in the far north, around the mouth of the Mackenzie river, that it was not unusual for an individual to have to pay a fuel bill of $100 a month during the winter months for fuel oil. It is not an exaggeration to say that electricity may cost a private individual $50 or $60 a month during the dark days of the winter. Food prices were out of this world, to the extent that anyone not in the employ of the federal service just went without. I can recall talking to employees whose families had not had any eggs, apples, oranges, lettuce, tomatoes or fresh foods of any kind for well over 18 months, because apples were $3 a dozen, so were oranges, and fresh eggs were $1.65 a dozen. These are the facts of life, as any northerner will tell you. Any real northerner will not be put off by such statements as: "If you live in Toronto you have extra expenses too". I guarantee
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that that sort of thing will not only be rejected out of hand by true northerners, but it will also do the minister of northern affairs no good when I mail copies of Hansard to every person in the north.
The northern allowance does have quite serious drawbacks. It drives a wedge between federal government employees who are in receipt of it and others who are not. It is a critical issue because there is a growing rift between federal civil servants and those who are not federal civil servants, which is always the case whenever there are special benefits to civil servants which are not general throughout the whole populace. This, of course, is a completely arbitrary administrative decision. In some communities northern allowance was decreased. In some cases the employees were advised at the beginning of the month that the allowance would be reduced, and some employees lost $40 a month, with absolutely no recourse open to them. As I say, this is an administrative decision which was taken in an arbitrary manner and without consultation. Salaries in some cases were reduced by as much as $360 a year to $480 a year. This allowance, which recognizes the high cost of living in the north, was reduced without consultation, and from the point of view of the civil servants themselves they would prefer that their salary be not subject to revision or to the whimsical dictates of a government which is attempting to prune its costs. You could eliminate the northern allowance by allowing an increased personal exemption, with a 25 per cent cut in taxes across the board.
The suggestion which was made earlier today by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Lloyd) I feel cannot be taken too seriously, and I do not think it was meant to be anything more than a time waster. There are ample precedents for the provision of special incentives for undeveloped areas. For example, one need only consider what happened in western Canada a few years ago when the federal government encouraged people to settle and to set up homesteads. For as little as $5 rent 160 acres was provided, and this proved to be a way to open up the country.
Another important reason why this resolution should be approved borders on a highly dangerous area of discussion. As the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Turner) suggested, many of the residents of the north are not taxpayers at all. For example, the Indian and Eskimo people do not earn enough to pay taxes. These are the people who require most of the services which are supported by taxation. There is a small minority of people in the north, who tend to be among the non-Eskimo and non-Indian group, who pay most of the taxes. They are

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such people as small businessmen, workers in the mines, successful trappers and fishermen. The civil servants are compensated through payment of northern allowance, but I would suggest that tax relief is absolutely essential if people are to remain in that part of the country. This resolution has suggested one compensation could be effected by increasing personal exemptions. I suggest it would be equally easy merely to allow people in the Canadian north-the Yukon and Northwest Territories-to compute their taxes using the same schedules and forms used by anyone else in Canada, and then having arrived at the computation of tax payable, deduct 25 per cent as bonus for having the courage to go into Canada's hinterland and help develop it. I reject the suggestion that would have to be done elsewhere. There are elsewhere provincial governments with various forms of tax relief which they can make available. In the Northwest Territories and the Yukon the federal government still carries the bulk of the investment and bears the bulk of the responsibility for developing those areas intelligently.
In conclusion, and to allow the house time to approve this resolution, I want to suggest to the government, though I realize they cannot pass the resolution, not just to reject it but to refer it to treasury board. There is general support for this measure in the Canadian north. The parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources knows this is true. This would be a generally accepted measure in the north which would bring a great deal of relief to the people there. It is a measure which has been sought for many years, and it might even rewin a seat for the Liberal party at the next election.


John Napier Turner: Mr. Speaker, I think no better way for us to rewin both seats at the next election has just been demonstrated this evening than by the two speeches made to the house by the hon. members for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) and the Northwest Territories (Mr. Rheaume). I realize that we will not have time to discuss this evening in detail the question of cost equalization, but it could be raised on the estimates at some future time.
In the few minutes allowed to me this evening I should like to say that the reason we cannot accept this resolution in its present form is that, although its prime purpose is to eliminate hardship among the lower income groups in the north, its effect would be the contrary because it would benefit only those people in the north who are already

within the income tax brackets. To increase personal exemptions would mean that those people in the higher income groups would also have an increased personal exemption, which would be of no benefit at all to thousands of northerners, particularly the Eskimos and Indians, who do not come within the ambit of the Income Tax Act because they do not earn enough money.
In terms of incentive, the incentive we should be looking for is the incentive to bring about industry in the north, to provide more employment for the people there. We should provide capital investment stimulus, a write-off in the case of new mineral and petroleum industries, equalization of transportation costs, and equalization of certain freight rates. That is the type of thing which would do much to equalize the cost of living in the north, rather than raising the personal exemption of those people now living in the north.


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: Order. The hour appointed for the consideration of private members' business having expired, the house will revert to the business interrupted at five o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: It is my duty, pursuant to provisional standing order 3 9A, to inform the house that the questions to be raised at ten o'clock p.m. this day are as follows:

First, the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon): Canada's centenary; appointment of a member of the national commission.

Second, the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge): Peace river, authority for flooding behind dam.

Third, the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Choquette): protesting the attitude of some radio stations.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Nicholson for the second reading of Bill No. C-102, to amend the National Housing Act, 1954.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.
Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, when this debate was adjourned at five o'clock because of private members' hour I was referring to the action being taken by the government respecting the application of N.H.A. loans to older homes, and I should like to elaborate on that point for a few moments. May I reiterate that I am quite sure this bill will receive rather speedy consideration by the house, so the minister may be at his ease and not be concerned about the few brief interventions that will be made this evening. I note that so far 28 government measures have been adopted. I think we are doing very well in the house, and this measure will receive the same approval.
With regard to the application of mortgage funds to older homes, 1 think the minister has made a very notable step in the right direction, but I think the approach is wrong in that this provision will apply only in designated areas and where the federal, provincial and municipal governments have entered into an agreement. I recognize readily the reason for moving in this way and I think everyone on this side of the house recognizes this point. Had such action been taken many years ago prior to the rapid urban growth following world war II, I believe many of the situations that have arisen would not have occurred. For instance, there was the great sprawl of the urban areas away from the central concentrations of population, which created educational and commercial problems, and the housing problem, of course, with all its complexities so far as municipal services are concerned and other matters pertaining to this growth. I feel that some of the areas that will now be affected by this provision would have maintained their position. I think that money would have been spent to maintain and improve them and therefore, so far as the taxpayers are concerned, the cost would not have been so great.
But let us move on to the situation as it is today. As I said this afternoon, certainly I was aware of the problem when we on this side formed the government, and I did make representations in this regard at that time. But that does not stop me from expressing myself this evening and endeavouring to impress the minister. Many older homes in smaller municipalities and towns would benefit if this measure applied, but the thinking, of course, involves a much different type of area. In other words, an area within a large urban centre has to be 20220-258
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designated a slum area before the amendment to the act can be applied. As I say, the minister is certainly moving in the right direction, but in making this change he has not in my opinion gone far enough. I know that not only my own home town, which is small in relation to the areas he is thinking of in this regard, but hundreds of others would benefit greatly if this provision covered them.
I am thinking this evening of the working people of the country who could have taken advantage of this provision in a most beneficial way, but who have availed themselves already of the opportunity to build new homes. In my view this has not provided the greatest benefit to the economy because some of these people have had to jeopardize a great many years of their lives in order to carry the charges that go along with the construction of these new homes under the terms available to these people.
I also mentioned this afternoon the matter of tax abatement. I will include that in my summary, but at this time I will move along to another phase of the legislation which I think is also very good and which we will probably find satisfactory when the minister explains it. I refer to the new section 36B where reference is made to the acquisition of existing buildings in order to convert them for school or university uses. I have discussed a specific problem with the minister and I believe this particular section will apply. I am sure it will be a very valuable measure in this regard.
With the rising costs of education and the increasing demand for higher education, universities and their boards in most cases find themselves in difficult circumstances in fulfilling the programs they have laid out for themselves and meeting the goals which must be attained in order to keep pace with the educational requirements not only of today but of the future. As the directors of these universities plan their program for the coming years, I hope the minister will see fit to expand the application of this section respecting the acquisition of property, because in many cases property that is available today will not be available five or ten years hence at which time the property, if acquired now, will be very valuable to the functioning of these institutions. As the clause is framed I think it will probably meet this situation, but I think it should be clarified in the minister's own words.
Then, the situation to which I have made reference involves a national housing subdivision of some years ago, and I think the disposition of this land by the corporation will be entertained in the not too distant

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future. Where such circumstances exist, I think it would be wise for the minister to go on record and say that such an institution of learning will have priority for the acquisition of this land and the buildings existing thereon.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I should like to present a brief summary of my points before I resume my seat. I would say this:
1.	The loans for the purchase of older homes should have general application rather than the specific application referred to in the amendment.
2.	The interest on the mortgages should be allowed as a reduction from taxable income. I should like to add a word here. We are well aware, as I am sure the minister is, of the application of recent legislation in the United States. It is generally on a much broader base than I suggested here, but certainly we must start somewhere. In this regard, I am making this recommendation to the minister because of the situation I outlined with regard to the worker who has to prejudice his income position for so many years to purchase a home and who, we all consider, is the backbone of the Canadian economy. We must do everything in our power to keep that man in a strong and flexible position. This is one area in which the federal government could make a valuable contribution by following my suggestion.
3.	I should like the minister to explain, perhaps not now but when we get into committee, the situation with regard to section 36(b).
4.	I would recommend to the government the establishment of a department of urban growth and development for the benefit of the planning of communities such as the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) referred to earlier today. I believe that in a country such as ours, with the potential growth we have, with the great wealth we have and the future everyone knows stands before us, we should be prepared to do everything in our power to see that this growth is established on a proper basis for the citizens of Canada.


Mr. Lloyd Francis (Carleton):: In introducing this legislation the minister indicated that it represented a substantial shift in the philosophy of the legislation, and in its emphasis, by the program which Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as the instrument of government, will be undertaking in the period ahead. I am sure that people who review this period, in writing the history of social legislation and social development, will mark this series of amendments to the housing act as one of the most significant developments in terms of the obligation that
[Mr. Winkler.)
lies upon us today. So far, as the minister pointed out very well, the emphasis has been on new, single family housing built in the suburbs to satisfy the immediate demand for housing accommodation, which has been accumulated as a result of a long period of under construction, and to compensate for the new family formations that have taken place.
This phase, which has occupied something like 90 per cent of the units constructed so far, is coming to an end. The emphasis is now shifting to urban renewal and public housing, and properly so. As the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) said this afternoon, there is no greater challenge ahead for any government or for any party than to meet the problem of the development of our cities and the redevelopment of the core of the cities, and to provide a proper balance of the required housing accommodation for different types of families in our society. The people who did the forecasts of population trends for the royal commission on Canada's economic prospects indicated that in something like two decades approximately 80 per cent of our population will be living in a fairly small number of large metropolitan centres. This is just one way of expressing what the obligation is.
We are now beginning to see the consequences of this tremendous overemphasis on single family accommodation, the three bedroom bungalow in the suburbs. One result has been the creation of some very fine, attractive new suburbs. This is where our children are being born and a large part of our population is being reared. However, the suburban communities which have been built this way do not have an adequate cross-section of the population. There has been a tremendous demand in these communities, for example, for schools. I predict that this demand is in excess of the long term requirements of many of these areas. This, in turn, comes back to the defect in the legislation, which should have placed a proper emphasis on multiple; accommodation and proper emphasis on public housing in particular, which is needed.
These amendments mark a milestone in the development of our philosophy in terms of what our legislation is devised to do. We all know that in this country a matter like housing, as the minister so well indicated, involves a co-operative partnership of municipal, provincial and federal authorities working together to solve a problem which must, in the first instance, be initiated at the municipal level. There is, as other members who participated in the debate before me have indicated, a reluctance, which is frequently difficult to understand, by the municipal authorities to initiate public housing

projects. There are many reasons for this. In many instances, the starts that have been made have not been as good as they should have been.
Some of the starts on public housing, and I am referring to the city of Ottawa, have been made without adequate planning of recreational areas adjacent to the public housing. Some of the projects that have been undertaken have not been properly inspected in the course of construction, so the standards of construction dropped. The accommodation which now exists is not as good as it should be. These are technical defects which we can remedy as we go along.
The important thing at this stage is to set the legislation in perspective to create the initiatives to do the things that have to be done. There is an obligation on the municipal authorities at every stage, as the minister indicated. There is the problem of acquiring land, the problem of the rehabilitation of existing housing, the conservation of housing before it deteriorates beyond hope.
The legislation and the amendments are specifically directed towards the older housing within the designated urban renewal areas. The corporation is now permitted to participate in the cost, not only of acquiring the land but the actual replanning of the services that have to go with the land. Frequently, the services have to be improved in order to meet the new demands placed upon them. The sewer mains and water mains have to meet the demands of the use of the land after redevelopment.
The municipalities must show initiative. They must go ahead with legislation to create housing standards boards and to set up standards for the maintenance of existing housing, and procedures for the condemning of housing which is below standard. The province is usually ready to contribute by providing a legislative base to back up the municipalities, so that this type of legislation does not become challenged in the courts. I was pleased to note, Mr. Speaker, that the city of Ottawa, which has pioneered a piece of legislation, was upheld in the Supreme Court of Canada. This legislation permitted the municipality to levy a high rise charge on new buildings in older areas which would create new demands on services which are inadequate to sustain them, when the tenements in the older areas constructed half a century ago are replaced by high rise buildings. The sewers that were laid down 50 years ago are not adequate; the water mains which were laid down 50 years ago are not giving sufficient pressure. The services which are below ground, in addition to the services above ground, have to be replaced.
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For the first time the legislation will now permit Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to participate in the costs of redevelopment, but the municipality has a responsibility-as I think the city of Ottawa has obviously done, and as a result of which other municipalities will follow-to seek the sources of revenue that are adequate to participate in the opportunities now offered it.
We heard some very interesting comments from the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott) in terms of guidance, what might be short term and what might be long term policy. I for one followed his comments with a great deal of interest. There were some assertions he made with which I could agree, but there were other comments which he made that I found a little bit academic and on the theoretical side, with which I could not agree.
I would like to make some comments on one aspect of the bill which is not covered in the amendment, but which I am sure will be reviewed in years ahead. I am thinking in terms of land assembly projects. The hon. member said such a project was a very good example of the type of difficulty in basic thinking, and in trying to decide what our objectives should be. If we are shifting our emphasis to multiple units or public housing, to me it is quite clear that public housing should be built first in land assembly projects.
If we permit a land assembly project to be sold off in lots at a subsidized rate to a number of buyers in the middle income bracket, the experience all too frequently has been that the purchasers come back and lobby against public housing being built on land assembly projects. The people who buy these sites are under a misunderstanding as to what public housing involves. I believe there is an obligation to put the priority first on the building of public housing sites, and then sell the rest of the land assembly project sites for single family homes to private purchasers.
As an observer of some of the land assembly projects I could not help but notice that there is perhaps a real question whether the objectives of good, low cost, economical housing are achieved. It is clear now that the industry is moving to larger and larger units of production. A builder who puts up fewer than 100 units a year is not able to take advantage of the economics of large scale purchasing, and when you take a land assembly project and make it available to individual purchasers they in turn negotiate with a wide range of builders, and this means we have an uneconomical type of operation involved. More and more the industry today calls for plans not to put up a

National Housing Act
single home but a neighbourhood of homes, a cluster of homes, harmonious in design, to give a balanced neighbourhood and a balanced community.
In making the sites available from the land assembly projects I submit it is very much in the public interest that we should look in terms of the number of builders who are going to operate there, and make restrictions to ensure that the finest type of neighbourhood development takes place within our land assembly schemes.
One other concept advanced by the hon. member for Danforth gave me a fair amount of concern. He spoke in terms of a model community. This is the great dream of the past. In the model community everything is ordered, everything is according to plan, but you will find very few of those who have had practical experience with the industry who feel that this type of community can be created in the way the planners think it can.
What is going to be the core of the community? If it is industry, how are you going to have public control of the industry? In a socialist economy it would be possible to formulate policy so that you could direct this core and work out from the industrial locations to the residential sections, and thus achieve a balance; but in our society it would be very doubtful if you could do this.
Was the hon. member thinking in terms of industrial communities on the fringe of large residential areas? If so, he must think in terms of what is involved, how many builders are going to be involved; because if it is open to everyone, this is to the detriment of the land assembly project. If you restrict the number of builders, by what principles do you allocate the lots and erect the homes? How do you assign plots of serviced land and put on the type of controls which are flexible enough and yet sufficiently minimum to be adequate?
I believe we are now entering a phase in construction in North America, and in Canada in particular, in which private industry is rising to a high level of achievement. I think the satellite communities which we now see springing up are the best planned towns, the kind we now see rising in southern Ontario, on the outskirts of Toronto, and which we see planned on the outer fringe of the green belt beyond Ottawa. In many cases a single large developer, or combination of developers, has reached to the satellite community, and set up within the framework of private enterprise its own controls, its own planning, and its own objectives.
I do not think this calls for anything more than proper balance and the guidance of legislation, but one of the things which has

been involved so much with our legislation so far has been this monstrosity of emphasis on the three bedroom, single family bungalow in the suburbs. This has distorted the community's attractiveness and has created onerous and unnecessary demands on school boards and others. It has created what I think in many cases is an unequal disposition of new classrooms and other new facilities, especially when we come to add up the cost of this type of inadequate planning.
I think the amendments which have been proposed today are a stepping stone in a change of thinking, in a change of philosophy, in a change of emphasis which is in keeping with the obligations ahead of us. There is no question that the greatest job to be done in housing today is to provide houses for those in the lower income brackets, to provide housing on the most economical terms, whether it be in forms of town houses, apartment dwellings or multiple units which are beautiful, which are economical, which provide the necessary minimum standards of community facilities and which, I submit, will have to be financed with the kind of assistance which single family homes got through the previous legislation. I am very pleased to welcome these amendments and to support them in this house.


Mr. Clancy:: I have one or two questions for the hon. member, after listening to his very eloquent speech. What does he think about the low rental housing area which is causing so much trouble in part of his constituency? Second, what about our schools and a bypass over the Queensway? I think he was very eloquent, but why not get a little bit local and get something for the people who live in his constituency? I happen to be one member of parliament who spends his time in Ottawa living in the hon. member's constituency.


Cyril Lloyd Francis: I welcome the hon. member's intervention, and I am delighted to say I can vouch for the fact that the hon. member who has spoken is an excellent citizen and a well known resident of a very fine riding. The hon. member was attentive to what I was saying and I am sure he will recall I said there were some instances of standards of construction which are not as good as they should be, and I also referred to lack of adequate balance, of recreational facilities and lands adjacent to public housing sites. I feel very strongly that this is one particular example where the planning was not good enough, and I believe that what we will have to do in future will have to be a great deal better than was done there. But by the same token we all know we have to have public

housing. This is what is needed, and this is what is called for within the terms of public initiative.
We have, by and large, solved the problem of the development of the single family house. Eighty per cent of what has been done under the act has concerned this type of accommodation. But I have worked very conscientiously to try to improve the conditions of that development, and as an alderman of the city of Ottawa representing that area I have expressed on a number of occasions, as the hon. member may know, and as certainly his wife will know, my concern about the lack of recreation space afforded to a project which has 120 units and houses well over 500 children.


Gordon Drummond Clancy: The hon. member has just said he was an alderman of the city of Ottawa, and he was an alderman when I moved into the area. There has been no decision made. Land was set aside for recreational use and still, after five years, no decision has been reached. If the hon. member wants to be local about the thing, fight it out here, or else go down to city hall.


Cyril Lloyd Francis: The hon. member has, I think, answered his own question. The mayor of the city of Ottawa is a member of his own party and he should carry more weight in influencing her decision than I have been able to do.


Gordon Drummond Clancy: I would accept the mayor of Ottawa as a member of our party any day of the week.


An hon. Member:: You can have her.


Gordon Drummond Clancy: I will take her. She is a fighter. She has more brains than all the rest of you.


Mr. G. W. Baldwin (Peace River):: In addition to the compliments paid by the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Francis) to the hon. member for Yorkton (Mr. Clancy) I think he forgot to say he also had good voting habits.
I think the quality of this debate has been excellent. This is a very important subject and it has been dealt with, I think, in a constructive and useful way by all members who have taken part. I should like to say this because in recent weeks it has been the habit to be extremely critical of this parliament. Yet here we have legislation dealing with real problems, and there is no doubt the house can rise to the occasion and deal with these problems in an effective way.
I wish to go on record as agreeing with the remarks made by my hon. friend from Yukon (Mr. Nielsen). I also come from a northern constituency, not quite as far north
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as he does but far enough north that to a limited extent the problems which his people face are those faced by the people of my area, too. I do hope that the minister, who I saw paying close attention when the hon. member for Yukon was speaking, will pay regard to his reasonable suggestions.
I should like to make one further observation, though it is not completely pertinent to this legislation before us. The $500 bonus program is one which does not apply in the north in the fullest way, northern winters being what they are. When the cut-off date comes we too often find that the weather has been so inclement that it has been impossible to reach the stage which could be expected in areas of Canada further to the south. This is very important. I have received a number of letters from people in my area who are anxious to take advantage of this provision, but unfortunately they have not been able to do so. While I agree there cannot be flexibility in legislation of this kind sufficient to satisfy the requirements of all the areas of Canada, I think the situation which arises in the northern regions should be given special consideration.
I listened with interest, too, to what was said by the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott). I agree with much of what he said but I do not go along with him when he suggests that this matter might be the subject of a royal commission. This problem of housing and urban redevelopment is one which is extremely rapid in its occurrence and its changes and I do think that if you set up a royal commission, by the time this commission were to draw its conclusions the assumptions upon which those conclusions were based would no longer be valid. I am sure those members who have played any part in municipal government will bear with me when I say that frequently, from the time a municipal project is conceived, financed and carried through the necessary levels of government to the day of its conclusion, a considerable time has elapsed, and the end which the project was initially planned to serve has also extended.
So it would be with a royal commission. I would make this suggestion, however, and it is one I have made before. The standing committees of this house-and this, of course, is a subject for a committee which Your Honour and I are concerned with also-no longer are related to the exigencies of present day needs, and I should like to see a standing or select committee dedicated to the problem of urban redevelopment and housing This is a need which could be met by simple means at this time and, in conjunction, rather than a royal commission I should like to see a per-

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manent committee composed of the representatives of the three levels of government, federal, municipal and provincial. This would be a committee sitting continuously with a permanent secretariat to study these problems which arise from day to day, from week to week and from month to month. Liaison between that committee and the three levels of government would, I think, enable the machinery of government to be directed to at least a partial solution of the problems which have to do with housing and urban redevelopment.
Several years ago a measure of this kind was before this house. I had the honour to speak on that occasion and I want to repeat what I said then. I am going back, very briefly, to the amendments made to the National Housing Act in 1960, and I do this because the very problem I referred to then still exists; it has not been disposed of. We are still dealing with what, I submit, are the results and the effects of the problem and not with the real cause. At that time I was quoting from an article which appeared in Time magazine of August 29, 1960 and I should like, with permission, to quote part of this article again. The article was called "The Costly Earth" and it went on to say this:
The man who faces inflation's cruellest bite is the United States home builder-
And this can certainly be applied in this country.
-who starts off in search of land for his dream house.
Since 1950 the price of U.S. land for home building has soared anywhere from 100 per cent to 3,760 per cent-while building material prices have climbed a less spectacular 24 per cent and building trade wages 60 per cent.
I would imagine that this same comparison might well be made today. I did not secure statistics, because I did not know I would be speaking; but I think the same general trend would still apply. The article goes on:
In city and suburb alike, says House and Home the present tax structure harnesses the profit motive backward; it abets speculation, penalizes development. Underdeveloped land and vacant city lots are taxed, on the average, at less than 25 per cent valuation across the U.S. v. 40.8 per cent for business properties. Land, comprising one third of the U.S. national wealth, carries less than 5 per cent of the total tax load. Not surprisingly, land speculation has made more millionaires since world war II than any other form of U.S. business or investment.
If the U.S. is to avoid an even bigger land bust than in the '20s, concludes House and Home-
And this could certainly be applied in our country.
-cities and towns must act fast. Most experts agree that the first point of attack should be to ease the too-heavy tax burden on houses and other improvements, multiply the too-easy tax load on unimproved land, and make the unearned increment in land prices provide much

more of the taxes needed to provide the streets, water, sewer and schools without which unimproved land would be neither liveable nor saleable.
I had the honour of being present yesterday at the opening of an important conference having to do with the family, and I also heard the eloquent and articulate words which were spoken at that time to open the conference. Surely at the very root of this problem is the provision of adequate housing for the family. How can you have a family which fits into our civilization as we would like it to fit without having that family housed in suitable and reasonable circumstances? I do not know to what extent this conference is going to direct its attention to this problem, but I would hope that we in this house have an opportunity to do something about it, and we might well march with our proposals parallel to what is being done at the conference.
I am not being critical of the bill itself, because I support the principle and I think it will do a great deal to help solve the consequences which have flowed from the problem I mentioned; but I do not think it gets to the root cause. What runs in my mind, Mr. Speaker, is what the minister has said-and I agree very much with what he did say- along the same lines as the words spoken by the minister several years ago, when a companion piece of legislation to this was before this house and was passed. It is in my thinking that in the not too distant future we will be called back here to vote even larger sums of money to deal in an even more impressive way with this very grave problem of urban redevelopment, urban sprawl, the slums which continue to grow despite what is being done to dispose of them, the construction of schools, streets and sewers to facilitate servicing the houses which are required for our people. I am quite satisfied as I stand here and speak tonight that within a few years legislation of the same kind will be before us again. I recognize that the question of land taxation, of municipal taxation is one which lies, under our constitutional division of powers, exclusively within the jurisdiction of provincial governments, as does, of course, this business of housing and slum development. But by one of these flexible arrangements which our constitution permits between the three levels of government, we are tackling the one problem, and I hope in the course of the discussions the minister and his officials will be having from time to time with provincial governments they will have a look at the suggestion I am going to lay before him at this time. There have been for many years those who have advocated a different type of municipal tax. One school of thought with which I have some sympathy advocates the

approach of Henry George which, as it is related to municipal government, can be described as a method of tax by which the emphasis is shifted and the incidence is shifted from improvements to the land alone.
I am simply going to leave this thought with the minister and refer him to two studies which have been done in the last few years in connection with specific municipalities. One was done in the United Kingdom and was completed quite recently. It was published by the united committee for the taxation of land values. The survey was made on a voluntary basis by the rating and value association, and it was done in connection with the city of Whitstable in the United Kingdom. Then there is a research monograph completed in 1959 by Miss Mary Raw-son, who I think comes from the same city as does the minister. This is entitled "Property taxation and urban development". It covers a detailed analysis of urban development and taxation in the municipality of Burnaby, which of course is an area with which the minister is quite familiar. I am just going to read very briefly from this latter document; time will not permit me to do any more. But I would like the minister to give some attention to the summaries and conclusions contained therein.
This study was done very carefully. It was not a theoretical and philosophical discussion of the subject but, as is said in the foreword, it is-
-an able and well documented case study of what would happen in terms of land use and development in a municipality if the local ad valorem tax were shifted from land and improvements toward a land value tax.
The author comes well qualified, as the minister will know, for this sort of study. She is a native of British Columbia, a graduate of the University of British Columbia in economics and Slavonic studies, and was attached to the national research council of Canada for a period of years. In addition, she completed her master's thesis at the department of city and regional planning of the University of North Carolina. Let me conclude, Mr. Speaker, by just reading very briefly some of the conclusions, which I adopt as my wording and which I think are worthy of consideration. I shall read from page 27 of the monograph, which I will be glad to furnish to the minister if he is interested. First, dealing with the question of urban sprawl and the importance of increased land taxes, this study points out:
The importance of increased land taxes can probably best be appreciated in relation to the problem of sprawl-its extent and its cost to the community.
Sprawl is not a new phenomenon. Emil O. Jorgensen, writing in 1925, calculated that half the
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potential farming area and over half of our urban centres then consisted of vacant land.
There have been changes here, but I think that as related to value precisely the same proposition could be made:
It cost enough to build and maintain public improvements past all this unused land to reach people who were living further on, he said, but the amount of capital squandered, labour wasted and time consumed in passing and repassing these innumerable gaps of vacant land-daily, monthly, yearly-was "something appalling'' and, for the nation as a whole, "beyond all calculation or conjeetion".
This passage continues:
In 1938 Edmund Bacon described similar costs to the community in a study of Flint, Michigan. He counted 28,526 vacant lots (of which 43 per cent were tax delinquent) which were serviced with water and sewer at a cost of some $1,700,000.
Then later on:
The sprawl problem is almost purely the result of land speculation at work. Thousands of vacant service lots lie within our cities while thousands of new urban lots are offered in patches scattered about in the suburban and rural rings. The services which are sometimes said to be rendered by speculators in land pale into insignificance when judged against the resulting pattern of costs to the community.
I just put it in this way, that this can be seen by anyone who has been involved in the construction of houses in the last 10, 15 or 20 years and who has watched with interest the increase in the percentage of the cost of land as contrasted with the cost of the building itself which has gone into new homes. I can recall that when I first built a house I think probably 5 or 6 per cent of the cost was land. In the case of the last house I built it was nearer 25 per cent to 26 per cent; and there is no stopping this trend. Then dealing with slum clearance the study says:
In the slum, the process of natural renewal by private action has come to a stop, hindered, among other things, by speculation in land, and by the taxation of improvements.
It is my simple submission, Mr. Speaker, that the application of at least this principle in part would do more than anything else that I know of to compel the owners of what are now described as slum areas to bring into production those parcels of land in order to pay the taxes which would be necessarily involved in a scheme of this kind. Then we see:
To exempt improvements and at the same time to tax land more heavily would provide a double incentive to the owners of derelict buildings to demolish them and to use the land more intensively. Here surely is a golden key to urban renewal, to the automatic regeneration of the city- and not at public expense.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, we have in this country an active and efficient housing industry. I think that more than any other

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industry in this country we are geared to do the sort of things which should be done, yet we find it necessary to come back time after time to the government for the kind of help which this legislation is going to give. This report continues:
To relieve dwellings of taxation removes a brake on investment which might take the form either of repair or of new construction. How great an improvement in the housing situation would result over time from this changed pressure, it is not possible to calculate.
This is, of course, a long range program. It may be four, five or six years before he or some other minister-and I expect it will be another minister-is going to ask the house for the passage of similar legislation. Therefore I would urge upon the minister and his officials the need to take a look at the problem. While I acknowledge the fact that it is completely out of his control to put into effect this type of tax situation, certainly at a conference he could bring it to the attention of municipal and provincial governments. He could also bring it to the attention of his colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) who, when urged for further funds by provincial governments, might well be able to point out the tremendously large amount of tax dollars going down the sewer from taxation of land speculation.


Robert Norman Thompson: Mr. Speaker, my intention is to speak very briefly to the bill we have before us and to bring up several points which I think are gross injustices with regard to the outworking of this legislation which is provided under the National Housing Act, the amendments to which are contained in Bill No. C-102. Shelter is of equal importance to the well-being of an individual in a free society, as is food itself. In fact, I am convinced that one of the best assurances for the continuance of a free way of life in a democratic society is the provision made within that society for direct home ownership. Much has been done in Canada in this regard, but we are yet far short of the desirable ideal so far as making it possible for individual citizens to own their own homes.
While it is not directly related to the amendments before us at the present time, I think we all agree that our tax system is antiquated so far as the home owner is concerned. Too often is he penalized for improving his own home and property, instead of being given the incentive to do this very thing. Second, the cost of financing home ownership is far too high. We speak about social capital and the need to provide capital without the heavy load of interest which we must pay today for the development of certain of our social capital needs. I am con-
IMr. Baldwin.]
vinced that home ownership fits into this category as well. I believe that one of the reforms which must be brought about in the future is the classification of capital, so far as that which is required to provide for the construction of homes for our citizens is concerned, on the same basis that we are coming to regard social capital used for general social development needs.
As an illustration of this present problem a $12,000 mortgage on a home costs a homeowner after 20 years $21,326, on the basis that he is paying 6J per cent interest on the money. After 25 years it costs him $24,114. It means that in just 25 years the cost of financing his home is more than the cost of the construction of his home. At the end of 30 years this amount has been raised to $27,060. This does not include many of the other charges which are part of financing a home under the provisions of the National Housing Act, which is the authority which sets up Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
It is not my intention to go into detail on this subject because I want to bring into focus several injustices which are included in the present operation of the act about which I do not think very many of us have thought too much. Therefore, I will briefly deal with certain procedures established by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and followed by mortgage companies in Canada which appear to me to be contrary to the law and which work a considerable injustice upon many of our Canadian citizens whose homes are subject to these mortgages.
One of the requirements of a mortgage authorized by the corporation is that the monthly instalments shall be increased by an arbitrary amount, to cover the cost of insurance on the mortgaged property; likewise that amount which is intended to cover the municipal taxes to be paid on the property. This amount is always estimated and is always in excess of the actual amount of the taxes levied and the cost of insurance involved.
A more serious objection, however, is that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is endeavouring to interfere in a way which I think transgresses provincial laws in attempting to set itself up as a compulsory agent between the mortgagor and mortgagee with respect to taxes imposed by a municipal authority. It is not possible for C.M.H.C. to make the mortgagor the agent of the taxing authority, so therefore it must endeavour to make the mortgagee the agent of the mortgagor. It is a rule of law that agencies may be terminated by the principal at will subject to the payment of any damages for breach of agency contract if such damages in fact exist;

but no contract of an agency can be made irrevocable. In this case the mortgagee is attempting to claim the right to intervene between a taxing authority and a taxpayer against the wishes of the taxpayer and to occupy a position distinct from that of the agent of the taxpayer. This position is unknown in the normal procedures of civil law. For many centuries it has not been constitutionally possible to farm out the collection of taxes to anybody.
A further serious objection to the system is that the agent of the mortgagor can only be a trustee holding moneys on behalf of the taxpayer until the time they are paid to the taxing authority. During this period any interest earned by the money actually belongs to the taxpayers and should be credited to his mortgage account. The appropriation by the mortgagee of such interest constitutes legalized embezzlement. It is not difficult to see that the present system provides the mortgagee with large sums of the taxpayer's money for its own use to the date of payment of the taxes, and it has apparently been the practice for many years for all lending institutions to appropriate, or perhaps it is better to say misappropriate, the interest on such moneys.
There can be no objection to the mortgagor adopting such an arrangement when he so desires, but to have it forced upon him is another question altogether. There should be no way of depriving him of the right to refuse such an arrangement or to terminate it in order to pay his taxes himself directly to the taxing authority whenever he sees fit to do so. But this is not his prerogative under the present arrangement. From my own experience in this regard the lending institutions will exert every pressure possible, by intimidation or otherwise, to discourage the mortgagor from exercising these very fundamental rights.
A further abuse to be found in the regulations of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and which is related to the particular amendments before us at the present time, has to do with the fact that the mortgagor is obliged to carry fire insurance to the full face value of his mortgage. The mortgage, however, is secured by both the building and the land, and I do not think any insurance company will ever issue insurance coverage on land itself. Usually this represents an increasing proportion of the mortgage starting at approximately one third. It can be readily seen that by this means the premiums are greatly and artificially inflated over and above the cost of financing the mortgage itself, as I referred to in my earlier remarks. Since insurance companies flatly
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refuse to value a structure by itself for insurance purposes and will accept coverage only on the full face value of the mortgage. The mortgagor is thus effectively prevented from determining how much fire insurance should equitably be carried on the building subject to the mortgage.
These may seem to be minor points, Mr. Speaker, but in my opinion they amount to the robbing of those who finance their homes under the provisions of this act of many millions of dollars a year simply because of the fact that under these regulations the financing institution is able to carry on these unfair and inequitable practices. The public are left wholly without protection in this situation since few can afford the cost of litigation and in most cases the cost of litigation would far exceed the amount taken from the home owner through the application of these procedures.
I think something ought to be done to correct this situation. I urge the government to look into the matter because while the point may appear a minor one in many respects, it is a fundamental right of the home owner that is being transgressed. What we ought to be doing in this legislation and through the whole policy involved under the national housing administration is to encourage rather than discourage the private ownership of homes.


Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make one or two observations in taking part in this very useful debate that has been going on this evening. The subject of homes in which people live affects the lives of a great many in this country. I well recall my first session in the house in 1957 when the Conservative government introduced legislation to increase the funds available to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in order to make it possible to build more homes and to create more jobs. We all recall what wonderful effects this action had on the creation of jobs throughout Canada. I should like to commend the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) for his suggestion with regard to setting up a standing committee of the house on housing. I think this is an excellent idea and I hope the house will give consideration to the suggestion.
There are only two or three sections about which I should like to ask the minister questions at this stage of the bill. The first has to do with urban redevelopment. I apologize for not having been able to follow the minister too closely, and I hope he will correct me if I am wrong in what I say. I understand that first of all a city has to designate the area. First, who designates the area?

National Housing Act Is it the city itself, the province or the corporation? When an area is designated, does it have to be a slum area in order for a person to be able to get a loan on an existing house? In my own city there is an area three or four blocks wide where some of the oldest and finest homes of the city are situated. These are homes that people would like to buy if they could get a loan with which to purchase them. At the present time it is very difficult to get loans on such houses. However, if this area is designated I understand that C.M.H.C. will grant loans on the existing houses so that people can buy these fine old homes and convert them into duplexes or live in them as they are, or perhaps fix them up to their former condition and appearance.
If it is not made possible for people to get loans on older houses, then in view of the development of the urban sprawl in all cities across Canada I am sure almost anyone can visualize that some of the fine old sections of the cities of Canada will become slum areas. I hope the new provision is not set up in such a way that the area has to be designated a slum area before people can get loans to buy these houses.
In June, 1960, the former minister of public works, Hon. David Walker, made it possible for universities to get loans at the rate of 51 per cent in order to build dormitories on university campuses. This provision has been used to a great extent. I am sorry I do not have the figures for 1964 but as of June, 1963, some $49 million had been advanced for this purpose. I am sure the amount must be nearly double by now. I commend the minister for improving this section so that student cooperatives will now be able to obtain loans under the act. With the great development of universities throughout Canada and the tremendous difficulties that universities are having in providing accommodation for their students, I am sure that student co-operatives will use this provision to a great extent.
There are many student co-operatives on campuses throughout Canada. In my own community of Guelph there is a student cooperative at the university which is most anxious to see the bill passed so that it can make application for a loan to build a student dormitory. In many of these co-operative residences students are able to work a few hours each week toward the cost of their accommodation. I am sure this provision in the act will fill a long needed want.
Another point I should like to make has to do with loans to non-profit organizations to build residences for senior citizens. This provision has been in the act for some time and in my view there has been a little window dressing in making reference to it in the


resolution. However, I should like to see this section of the act used to a greater extent because it is really appalling to see the rooms in which some of our senior citizens have to live. There is a great opportunity here to provide better accommodation for our senior citizens.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I should like to draw the minister's attention to the inspection aspect of C.M.H.C. operations. I know they sell what are called approved homes, but quite often purchasers of N.H.A. homes have brought to my attention flaws and poor construction in their homes. Only this week end a constituent told me that he had bought an N.H.A. home. I believe he is the second or third owner. It is a split level design and in the construction the builders failed to use enough gravel in the back part that is built on the ground. The result is that the whole floor has caved in and the plumbing, baseboards and flooring have caved in or deteriorated. This house is only eight years old. So this inspection of buildings is most important. I am sure the corporation will give every attention to this very necessary part of the construction of homes for the safeguarding of our Canadian people. I commend the minister on opening the National Housing Act for amendments, and this party is most happy to see these amendments put into effect.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, we are very happy, on this side of the house, that there are to be changes in the National Housing Act, and I wonder whether it would not be possible for the minister also to amend the act by making its provisions more flexible.
Everybody knows that the climate in the eastern provinces, including Quebec, the maritime provinces, Newfoundland, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon is entirely different from that of the western provinces and British Columbia, and that it is therefore more expensive to build a home in eastern Canada that in western Canada. I wonder whether it would not be possible to amend the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation act to make it more flexible and put home building in eastern Canada on the same footing with home building in western Canada, where there is practically no winter.
Mr. Speaker, I believe that this is a constructive suggestion, as it would contribute to render the act setting up the corporation more flexible and fairer to Canadian taxpayers.
I know that it may be difficult to insert in this act some provisions to that end, but I also know that the minister's officials are

entirely qualified to establish a certain distinction between the climate in the western provinces and in the eastern part of this country.
Mr. Speaker, we will soon celebrate the centenary of confederation, and I wonder whether the government could not exempt from interest the towns and municipalities which would want to take advantage of the services offered by C.M.H.C. to demolish slums within their limits and replace them by new, cleaner and healthier housing.
We know that slums are a liability for this country because, first of all, investigations have revealed that they mostly are a breeding ground for juvenile delinquency, for it is there that we find the highest delinquency and crime rate. Second, municipal assessment is very low in slum areas and, consequently, municipalities stand to lose a lot; third, insurance rates are higher in slum areas which are considered a bad risk. Fourth, there are more frequent and more numerous fires in such areas. Consequently, slums constitute a liability for cities and towns and, therefore, for the whole country.
If the minister could convince the cabinet to exempt from paying any interest charges cities and towns undertaking urban renewal programs, such a policy would be welcome by the Canadian people.
I wonder how much it would cost the federal government if, for example, those cities and towns which want to clear their slums and build new housing were exempted from paying interest for ten years?
Mr. Speaker, the problem of water pollution which faces this country is of capital importance. To my mind, all provinces would have some interest in forcing their cities, for instance, Montreal, for the province of Quebec, Toronto for Ontario, Vancouver for British Columbia and Halifax for the maritime provinces, to pass specific legislation providing that municipalities in the same territory are to co-operate in building water processing plants to counteract water pollution.
Mr. Speaker, in a few years we will celebrate the centenary of confederation; in Montreal, we will have the world fair, which will attract about 50 million people. May I stress, once more, that the St. Lawrence river is, at this time, the server of all its tributaries. One has only to sail on the St. Lawrence river to see all summer long a permanent oil layer stagnating on its waters.
Are we, Mr. Speaker, as the world fair will take place in Montreal, willing to have visitors see that the waters of the majestic St. Lawrence are polluted because the federal government, which has jurisdiction on that river, as
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it is a navigable water, has not taken the necessary action? To my mind, Mr. Speaker, the federal government has a great responsibility in this field and should set an example-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member, but perhaps he would tell the Chair how the remarks he just made are related to the bill before us.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: With great pleasure, Mr. Speaker. When I say that the water in the St. Lawrence river is polluted, it is due to industries, to the city of Montreal, to the surrounding municipalities and also to the oil plants as regards the oil sheets which foul the waters of the St. Lawrence river all through the summer. It is a blame I am indirectly casting on the oil plants in Montreal east which allow their tankers to spread oil on the St. Lawrence river.
I think it would be in the interest of private enterprises such as Montreal oil plants themselves to build sewage treatment plants-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. I listened to the explanation given by the hon. member, but I must tell him that he has not satisfied me, because I do not think the comments he is making are related to the bill now before the house.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: In section (b) of the bill, I see, referring to the explanatory notes:
For sewage treatment projects.
The city of Montreal and the surrounding municipalities authorize industries to dump into the St. Lawrence river chemical products which contaminate the water. I think, Mr. Speaker, that this is indirectly related to the bill now before us.
In concluding, Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: -I have not concluded, Mr. Speaker, and this is an encouragement for me to go on until ten o'clock.
Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that in the constituency of Joliette-l'Assomption-Montcalm and more specifically in Joliette city, a home should be built under C.M.H.C. to enable our old couples to end their lives in peace and together.
I hope that the authorities concerned will take this action for the construction, within the limits of the city of Joliette, of a large building containing apartments big enough to accommodate couples. I am also convinced that if such a building were erected in L'As-somption, the population would be very happy.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I come back to this point. In view of the centennial celebration of confederation, it seems important to

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me that the government should amend the legislation, if necessary, so as to exempt from interest, for a number of years, the municipalities and cities which want to clear away their slums.
For some months Canada has been hard pressed, there is hardly any slum clearance or construction in towns and cities because costs are too high on account of the 11 per cent on building materials. I am aware of the influence of the minister in the cabinet, and I hope he will convince the Minister of Finance to abolish this tax which discourages private enterprise and hinders, by that very fact, municipalities and cities in the clearance of slums to be replaced by healthy dwellings.
Mr. Speaker, I hope the minister will have the authority and the faith necessary to convince the cabinet to abolish this infamous tax, which is a nightmare for all builders in Canada, in order to permit the great expansion which construction would experience if the Canadian population and municipalities were to avail themselves of the legislation governing the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, to clear slums and replace them by healthy and modem houses.
Mr. Speaker, I trust that these remarks will be taken into very serious consideration, knowing that the minister has only one aim, that is to work in the interest of all Canadians.
As far as the 11 per cent tax is concerned, I would ask the minister to say something about it tonight, so that it may be abolished completely and enable us to return on the road of progress, so that workers will find work to do and that we can have healthy and modem housing in Canada.


Mr. G. L. Chailerion (Esquimalt-Saanich):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks will be very brief because, as should be obvious now, this side of the house has been anxious to get these amendments through as soon as possible. As a matter of fact, we were prepared to let the resolution go through without debate. However, there are a few general remarks I wish to make, and I reserve the right to make comments on specific clauses of Bill C-102 when it reaches the committee stage.
First of all, I want to say that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the administering agency for the National Housing Act, is the orphan of the government, and in my opinion has found a very poor home in the Department of National Revenue. This is the last place where it should have rested- certainly the Department of Public Works would be a more fitting and proper place for it.

I have one or two general comments about the existing operations of the National Housing Act which I want to bring to the minister's attention. The first is with regard to the general policy of making individual loans only in the case of sewered areas.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Does the hon. member think that the administration of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is now with the Department of National Revenue?


George Louis Chatterton: It is presently with the minister, but I think the proper place for it is the Department of Public Works.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: It is not with the Department of National Revenue, and I hope the hon. member understands that.


George Louis Chatterton: Yes, at the present time I understand that. I wholeheartedly agree with the policy that loans should be made not only where sewers are available, but there are places where this policy creates hardship and there are anomalies involved in setting an arbitrary rule as to whether the policy should apply or not. I suggest to the minister that he might consider establishing some kind of tribunal or appeal body to which individuals can refer when their particular cases are considered to be discriminated against by the present policy.
My second point is with regard to the policy of lending for apartments. I have in mind a recent case in the city of Victoria where C.M.H.C. decided there was overbuilding of apartments and therefore would not insure any more loans. There might be a valid reason for that attitude, but what I consider unfortunate is that when they decide the type of apartments being built they do not consider the quality and the particular need of an area for a special type of apartment.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to use again a document which I have used quite frequently in the house and which I will continue to use. This is a full page advertisement, published in the Victoria Daily Colonist of Sunday, March 31, 1963. The date of course denotes that this was during the last election campaign. This document is headed, "Policies of the Liberal Party". Of course I could spend all night reading the promises made and telling how they were not fulfilled, but I will restrict myself tonight to the amendments to the National Housing Act. I read:
Extend national housing legislation to provide insured mortgages for the purchase of existing homes as well as for building new homes.
It is a far cry from the provisions in the proposed legislation to that promise. The present legislation provides for loans on existing houses on a very limited scale, only in the area of urban renewal, but this promise of the

Liberal party was definitely to provide insured loans tor all existing homes.


Erik Nielsen: Deceived the public.


George Louis Chatterton: Yes definitely, deceived the public. The second promise made was this:
A new Liberal government will extend national housing legislation for the improvement of farm homes and other dwellings in rural areas.
I do not see any reference in the proposed legislation to that promise. In general terms, we are in favour of the proposed legislation and we are anxious to get it through. We are not going to delay it; but I want to point out that this legislation was taken almost in toto from the policy of the previous government.
I would refer hon. members to a speech made by the former prime minister at the annual meeting of the Progressive Conservative association of Ontario on February 19, 1963. I will not read all of it, but wish to point out that almost everything in Bill C-102 was forecast by the previous government in its proposed legislation, except in one very important area, and this is my main criticism of this legislation. We will not oppose it on these grounds, but I would point out to the minister that the bill does not really touch the real problems of urban growth and development in Canada.
In my opinion some of the major problems we have in Canada today are really unimportant compared with the real problem Canada will be faced with in the next two or three decades, namely that of urban growth and development, and this bill does nothing to prevent the increasing difficulties that urbanization is causing. What it does is to lessen some of the difficulties that have been created. It tends to remove the blight that exists. It tends to prevent further deterioration of the area which is degenerating, but it does not prevent blight that will follow in new areas, in the growing areas of the urban centres. In this respect the policies of the previous government made an important proposal, and that was, with regard to the outside areas of the metropolitan cities, to provide for further federal assistance to prevent some of the deterioration that will surely occur in the next decade or two in these areas.
I would urge the minister to get his staff, perhaps in conjunction with the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the national research council to consider these measures which might be taken to prevent what has happened, and what is happening now in the older parts of our cities, from occurring in the suburbia which is developing so rapidly. This is where the blighted areas of the future will occur, and deterioration
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will come about much more rapidly than has been the case in the cores of our existing centres.


Mr. W. H. A. Thomas (Middlesex West):: wonder whether the minister when he rises to wind up the debate would mind discussing the limits placed on this urban renewal program. In clause 23 we find a definition of the term "urban renewal area". It is defined as a blighted or substandard area of a municipality for which a government of a province in whose area it is located has approved the implementation of an urban renewal scheme. What about the limitation placed on the term "municipality"? Does it apply only to our large cities? Does it apply to a community of 10,000? Does it apply to a community containing 5,000? Does it apply to a community containing 1,000? And so forth.
Perhaps the minister will explain whether or not municipalities containing older villages and smaller settlements of 500 to 1,000 population can qualify under the urban renewal program. I will leave this question with the minister.


Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Other members have spoken at some length on the proposed amendments to the National Housing Act outlined in Bill No. C-102. I think we are substantially in agreement on at least those proposals which are in line with the policies initiated by the previous government. I have a few short comments to make on a situation of great interest to my home city of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. It concerns adequate housing accommodation for a large number of air force personnel being transferred to Moose Jaw R.C.A.F. station in the next few months in connection with the changeover in pilot training from Harvards to Tudor jets.
According to a statement by Group Captain Hunt, the officer commanding Moose Jaw R.C.A.F. station, there will be some 90 jet trainers at the station within a year. In addition to flying instructors and students there will be a large increase in maintenance staff. All these men and their families will require homes. Moose Jaw is very pleased to receive such an influx of important new residents. City officials wish to provide them with adequate housing. Although, with the expansion of the city in recent years, a great many new homes have been built, there will still be a need for more when the additional R.C.A.F. personnel arrive.
On an earlier occasion I discussed this matter with Mr. Garland, the late minister of national revenue. In a letter to me dated June 20, 1963, he stated:

National Housing Act Dear Mr. Pascoe:
In reply to your letter of June 10th concerning a housing project at Moose Jaw for accommodation of R.C.A.F. personnel. I am advised that no formal application for any additional accommodation has been received by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
You also request information as to Central Mortgage and Housing's policies concerning financing of projects to provide low rental housing. Some years ago, treasury board directed that for defence establishments located in reasonable proximity to organized municipalities that rental housing should, if possible, be provided by private enterprise within the organized municipality. Housing provided under these circumstances has become known as urban military housing and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as agent for national defence, designs the project and invites competitive proposals. Mortgage financing is provided by the Department of National Defence to the owner under terms comparable to those of the limited-dividend section of the National Housing Act. Approximately 3,450 units in 16 locations have been provided under this plan, and of these 600 are still under construction. The final decision as to the method of procuring rental housing rests with treasury board.
The late minister indicated that this arrangement was planned as an alternative to building additional permanent married quarters on military bases.
As I stated, this letter is dated June 20, 1963. The question I ask the Acting Minister of National Revenue is this: Is this arrangement for urban military housing still in operation and, if so, what procedures are necessary when applying for C.M.H.C. plans? I realize that these arrangements may not come directly within the minister's own field, but I did give him notice of my intention to ask this question and I trust he will give an answer when he closes the debate.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: If the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I intend to make my remarks very brief since I would like to get into committee for the clause by clause discussion of the bill itself. Certainly some of the questions which have been asked this afternoon and this evening could, I think, be answered more effectively on the particular clauses concerned. I refer for example to the question asked by the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. Thomas). He asked if I would deal with a certain phrase in a particular clause. Since this clause is part of a long series of amendments I think it would be much more effectively and easily dealt with in committee.
However, there are some matters which could properly be dealt with at this stage. The hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre (Mr. Pascoe) was thoughtful enough to tell me in advance that he wanted certain information. I can say briefly, this: While it is expected there will be additional air force per-

sonnel in the Moose Jaw area, should the Department of National Defence feel that additional housing is required either for single men or for married couples they can make a request to treasury board and provision can then be made. Our information is that despite the fact that additional personnel will be transferred to Moose Jaw the Department of National Defence does not intend to make any such request to the treasury board. However, Moose Jaw is in the same position as Petawawa and other cities to which military personnel are being transferred. Equal opportunities and facilities are open. Within the last few weeks a private builder has applied to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for a loan in connection with a project in Petawawa. It is progressing very nicely. The facilities and machinery of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are available in Moose Jaw, as they are in any other city. But the type of housing about which the hon. member is inquiring is, I think, that normally arranged by the Department of National Defence through treasury board. Did the hon. member have a question?


James Ernest Pascoe: Would the minister outline what terms are available to a private contractor contemplating taking on the construction of homes like that?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: It would be difficult to give that information now because it would involve outlining the entire procedure. I assumed from what the hon. member had said about his discussion with the late minister of national revenue that he was already in possession of this detail. I would be glad to give it to him if he would come to my office at any time.
One matter which was raised by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Nielsen) does deserve a comment. He said certain builders were bypassing or getting round the regulations of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and he wanted to know what steps were being taken to prevent this practice. I am sure the hon. member is familiar with regulation 20 of the national housing regulations which provides that an approved loan shall be made by an approved lender to a borrower at no less than the par value thereof, and that the borrower shall not be subjected to a charge in the nature of a discount or commission.
I am informed by C.M.H.C. that there has been the odd case within the last few months -that is to say, one or two cases-where it has been alleged that a builder-borrower has been subjected to a commission. These cases are being investigated. I might say that this act, as hon. members know, has been working for many years and we have had no difficulty whatever with the approved lenders who have

been functioning for any appreciable length of time. There have been difficulties with new lenders who have been approved recently and our present information is that the incidents referred to by the hon. member are cases involving new approved lenders. I can assure him that we will take action in this regard.
I would like at the outset, Mr. Speaker, to thank all hon. members for their kind words of appreciation of the co-operation they have received from the officials of C.M.H.C. It bears out the opinion I have formed of them in the two and a half months I have been the minister reporting for the corporation to the house. I also want to thank hon. members for their kind references to myself, and I can only express the hope that I may be able to live up to the expectations some of my hon. friends have put forward on my behalf. I will do my best.
I must say that I was very impressed with the remarks of the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Scott). He made a number of constructive suggestions. I think the most important comment he made was, "The question is not what is going to happen here as to the passing of this bill, but what is going to happen after the bill becomes law". I agree with him. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, what counts is what is done after the amendments are accepted by this house, as I hope they will be at a very early date. The hon. member suggested that a royal commission might be set up to have a look at urban Canada, as he described it, and study the problems of the low income families and our senior citizens or elderly people. I would rather give that suggestion some thought.
Another hon. member of the official opposition suggested that we have a permanent committee of this house do the same thing. I can assure the house through you, Mr. Speaker, that these suggestions will receive careful consideration.
The hon. member for Grey-Bruce (Mr. Winkler) and one hon. member, who preceded him, complained about red tape. I practised law long enough before I went into business to know something of the difficulties caused by red tape, and I can assure the hon. member that I will do my part to see to it that if there is any red tape that is interfering with the sound administration of this act, I will do my best to see that the red tape is cut. With regard to the suggestion that a separate department of urban growth and development be set up, my only comment is that I know both hon. members who suggested this appreciate the difficulties that lie in the way. They said they appreciated there were difficulties. Having regard to the difficulties that you run into when you try
National Housing Act
to get the provinces to accept amendments such as are incorporated in this bill-and the course agreed upon represents months of careful negotiation. Hon. members will recall some of the difficulties we ran into with the municipal loan development fund. With property and civil rights in the background-the field in which a minister responsible for urban growth and development could work would be rather restricted, I would think. However, the matter will be considered, but I do not want to offer hon. members too much encouragement at this time. The hon. member for Grey-Bruce raised a question with regard to section 36(b). That is something that I think could be more effectively dealt with in the clause by clause discussion.
I would appreciate it if the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Baldwin) would send me the second of the two studies to which he referred, namely the research monograph. It sounded like interesting reading. The hon. member for Wellington South (Mr. Hales) asked, "Are loans under the proposed legislation limited to existing houses in designated areas?" The strict answer is yes, but loans are not limited to slums or near slum areas. A designated area, as I explained in my opening remarks, and as will be seen from the provisions of the act, could be a blighted area or an area in which there has been an indication that blight may or is likely to set in. Under those circumstances either the province or the municipality designated by the province could designate a blighted area-not necessarily a slum area. I think this is what was troubling the hon. member.
I see that the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) has left the chamber, but he referred to the fact that he wanted to put housing in the west on the same footing as it is in the east. He overlooks the fact that we have some cold weather in the west, too. I can refer him to the interior parts of British Columbia and to the Yukon, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba. He will find that we have problems there which are even greater than they have in parts of eastern Canada.
With regard to one of the two points raised by the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich (Mr. Chatterton), I would say this. He referred to the fact that the government promised to extend loans to existing houses. I think, in fairness, the hon. member will agree that while we have not extended them to existing houses in all parts of the country, we have made an encouraging start at least by including existing houses in areas that are designated as needing attention. Any other

National Housing Act
questions, Mr. Speaker, I will try to deal with in the clause by clause discussion.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the minister whether he could relate his idea of a blighted area to loans for used houses. I mean, does it apply to the villages and smaller towns throughout our rural areas?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I dealt with that matter at some length in my opening remarks, Mr. Speaker. I would, with the best of faith, refer my hon. friend to the remarks I made on that occasion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.
On clause 1.
Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, just one question. Will the government soon appoint a new president of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to replace the one who died?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: The matter is receiving consideration at the present time but no decision has yet been made.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: But the new president will be bilingual?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: We will appoint the man we consider best fitted for the job.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 6 agreed to.
On clause 7.
Erik Nielsen: Mr. Chairman, I directed a good portion of my remarks to the application of extending loans to existing homes in rural areas. Is there any hope of relief in this regard to areas such as those in northern Canada, which are largely rural? In fact, 40 per cent of Canada is rural. Is there any hope that those areas will ever be able to participate as a result of this amendment?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: In answer to the hon. member he will note that the scheme of this amending bill is tied in with the idea of the working program for all the provinces. One of the key words in section 23 of the act is "municipality". There is no difference between cities and smaller municipalities. Municipalities of the type of area to which the hon. member referred would be included, but smaller unincorporated units would not be covered by the act.
I might say that this is a very important step forward which we are taking. We are pioneering in this legislation, as I said in my opening statement. We have to learn, I will not say to crawl, before we can walk, but certainly to walk before we can run,

and I should think that we would want to see how this scheme works out in some cities and municipalities where the stagnation and slum conditions to which I referred are presently existing. We should make an attempt to clean this up before we branch out into too wide a field. As I also said in my opening statement, the government is firm in its objectives, and if we do not attain the objectives we are seeking in the act, as enunciated in the statement I made on behalf of the government, then I hope hon. members will get after us and needle us to make the necessary changes which will bring about the desired objectives. But I do not think we should embark on too wide a course at the outset.


Erik Nielsen: Just on that point, I should like to compliment the minister and the government on following in the pioneering footsteps of the previous administration in this regard. But may I draw to his attention, as I am sure he already knows, that there are only two municipalities in the Yukon, and I know of only one in the Northwest Territories-there may be more but I know of only one. In the Yukon there are the municipalities at Whitehorse and Dawson City. Dawson City is a municipality, as the minister knows, which is experiencing great difficulty and I am sure that these provisions will not benefit the people there. They cannot even get an ordinary loan under the National Housing Act. So here is an act which is supposed to be national in application but which really is not applied to northern areas at all.
I would simply urge the minister to take into consideration possible review of the matter, with the objective in mind of bringing the act into some sort of line so that it will apply to and work in the northern areas of Canada.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: I have not forgotten the remarks of the hon. member which he made this afternoon, and also those of the hon. member for Peace River on the same subject.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Can we assume then, Mr. Chairman, that any municipality within a province, provided they can persuade the provincial government to designate them an area under the act, can participate with no limitation population-wise or otherwise?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: That is made perfectly clear in section 23(a) of the act. That is the same passage to which I referred when replying to the hon. member for Wellington South. This provision applies to substandard areas, not just slum areas of a municipality, in connection with which the government of a province has

approved the implementation ol a scheme of urban renewal.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: According to the section a plan may designate buildings and works in an area. Does that mean that the municipality, with the agreement of the province, could pick out certain buildings along a street and set up plans for urban renewal in regard to those particular buildings or streets?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Mr. Chairman, I think the language is clear. A designated area would not be just three or four houses. Some of the houses in a designated area may need improvement and some may not. If they come within the area, some house or buildings may have to be torn down completely. Others, if they are in keeping with the over-all urban renewal scheme, could be improved or new ones built with funds made available through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or an approved lender.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: And some of the houses could be left standing?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Some of the houses could stand. If they needed improvement, funds could be made available.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: It is just improving what is necessary.


Mr. Gray:: Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering whether the minister could clarify for me whether the act will leave the right to the municipalities to acquire land for commercial purposes, which lands is now being used for commercial purposes?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Please do not embarrass the minister.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: The hon. member may not have been here, but if he will read the remarks I made when the resolution was introduced he will see that that is quite possible.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I am not quite sure whether I am asking this question under the right clause, but I do want to ask whether consideration has been given to providing loans for persons who want to build properly constructed log homes with shake roofs. These can be very substantial, long lasting and very artistic houses.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: All I can say in answer to that is that I am sympathetic to the suggestion contained in the hon. member's remarks. I too have a soft spot for shakes, having regard to my background. This is a matter of detail which must be left to the municipalities concerned and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-but it has the sympathetic support of the minister, I can assure the hon. member.
National Housing Act


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I do just wish to bring to the attention of the minister that there are hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of split shakes being sent to California from my district to be used on homes costing up to $150,000, and the men making these split shakes would like to use them on their own homes. However, under central mortgage and housing they have to buy the rubberized or some other artificial form of roofing. Therefore I ask the minister and his officials to give this matter consideration, because the cedar shake is the most long lasting and is the most efficient roof for its cost of any roof devised by man to date.


Mr. Peters:: I would like to ask what consultations have been undertaken by the department in relation to the provinces. Are all the provinces behind the program of urban renewal outlined in this clause?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Again the hon. member may not have been here, but in answer to a question put by another hon. member I stated that the program outlined in this bill has been cleared with all the provinces and we have their assurance that they will co-operate.


Erik Nielsen: Don't forget the territories.


Alfred Dryden Hales: Just one question on this clause which relates to section 23. In one city there could be any number of designated areas, I take it, provided the province concerned agreed. Perhaps there would be half a dozen streets in one area of the city, and then 10 or 12 streets in another part of the city. Would that be a designated area?


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: That is within the concept of section 23, the unnumbered part. It is the main clause of section 23.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 8.
Lucien Lamoureux: Shall clause 8 carry?


William Arnold Peters: Ten o'clock.


John Robert (Jack) Nicholson: Is it at all possible to finish the bill? We have done 7 of the 16 clauses and I understood that all parties were in sympathy with the principle of the bill.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Lucien Lamoureux: Is it agreed?


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: We agree on our side.


William Arnold Peters: Ten o'clock.


Lucien Lamoureux: I understand we do not have unanimous consent.


Mr. Monteith:: The member for Timis-kaming.


Lloyd Roseville Crouse: Obstruction from the N.D.P.
Progress reported.
4078	HOUSE OF
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Mr. Churchill:: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the acting house leader what the business will be for tomorrow and, if he can give it, for Wednesday.


John Watson MacNaught: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we will continue with the committee stage of the bill to amend the National Housing Act. When that is completed we will resume debate on the second reading of Bill No. C-100, to amend the Farm Credit Act. At the conclusion of that measure we will consider the second reading of Bill No. S-26, respecting the commission established to administer the Roosevelt Campobello international park. I may say that this measure was considered and passed in the other place. There is some urgency that it be passed by this house as soon as possible, and I understand from conversations I have had with the house leaders on the other side that it will pass with a minimum of debate. After that is finished we will take the second reading of Bill No. C-101, to amend the Export Credit Insurance Act.



PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION

[Stage Direction]
(Subject matter of questions debated under adjournment motion).
Motion to adjourn the house under provisional standing order 39A deemed to have been moved:


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Speaker, on May 22 last I asked the Prime Minister the following question:
Does he approve of the appointment to the conference on the centennial of confederation of the wife of the Minister of Forestry, who is already an employee of the C.B.C. and who did not even take the trouble of attending the meeting held in Charlottetown last April 25 and 26?
Mr. Speaker, the wife of the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Sauve) is the moderator of many programs of opinion for the C.B.C. I cannot do otherwise than denounce this family compact. The Minister of Forestry has emoluments of $35,000 a year and his wife receives from the C.B.C. approximately $15,000 a year. Moreover, she is a member of the national centennial commission.
Mr. Speaker, in the opinion of the great majority of C.B.C. listeners, it is a scandal. And yet, Mr. Lesage, who was elected to office in Quebec, ordered royal investigations on peccadillos.


Mr. Speaker, the majority of listeners of the French C.B.C. network feel that we are faced with a real scandal, since it is the same family which controls and receives from a crown corporation and the government a very large amount of money.
Mr. Speaker, the wife of the Minister of Forestry embarrasses the employees of the C.B.C. and her presence in that corporation represents another type of blackmail for the authorities of the C.B.C., who do not dare dismiss her. In fact, what would happen if the head of the service concerned would dare dismiss the wife of a minister of the crown? The C.B.C. is wrongly considered as a den or the Mecca of the Liberal party on account of the wife of the Minister of Forestry.
When the Minister of Forestry discusses with his colleagues during a meeting of the cabinet the budget of the C.B.C., how do you want him to be unbiased and to protect the interests of the C.B.C. when his wife collects fabulous fees from that corporation.
Mr. Speaker, Caesar's wife must be beyond reproach. Caesar Sauve, save Caesar. Caesar's wife should not be open to suspicion, even if these suspicions amount to $15,000 to $20,000 per year collected from the C.B.C. while her husband, Caesar Sauve, gets $35,000 a year as minister of the crown.
Mr. Speaker, over the week end His Excellency the Governor General opened a conference on the Canadian family. We are all in favour of clannishness, but after all, is the family compact of Caesar Sauve not making a great deal of money at the expense of the 600,000 unemployed of Canada? Mrs. Jeanne Sauve, wife of the Minister of Forestry, will perhaps become the Cleopatra of the twentieth century.
Mr. Speaker, it is time the government took a position. Most Canadian taxpayers object to the wife of the Minister of Forestry collecting fabulous fees from the C.B.C. while her husband is a minister of the crown and a member of the cabinet.
How do you expect the situation not to be embarrassing for the C.B.C. officials who dare not dismiss her for fear that their own heads might roll as a result of their action, since they are faced with a powerful man, a powerful government which intervenes often directly and indirectly in the affairs of C.B.C., as we found out lately.
Mr. Speaker, the 600,000 Canadian unemployed are justified in complaining about that situation, and I hope that the Canadian government is going to face up to its responsibilities and break off that family compact which is so shameful for our country.

{Text]


Mr. J. B. Stewarl (Parliamentary Secretary io Secretary of State):: I had thought, Mr. Speaker, that the appointment complained of was the appointment of Madame Sauve to the national conference of the centennial. I can *only conclude from the rambling remarks of the hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat that the question put down was not to the point.
The national conference on the centennial is made up of 60 persons, 20 appointed by the provinces and 40 appointed by the governor in council. These 40 represent a broad cross-section of Canadians in the sciences, the arts, the learned professions, business, communications and so on. They are individuals who have made a contribution to our national endeavour. Members receive no honorarium, but are paid a per diem allowance to cover expenses when attending meetings. They serve during good behaviour.
Madame Sauve was appointed to the conference on October 15, 1963. She had participated actively in numerous regional and national organizations. She had been active in radio, television, and other forms of communications. She has a good knowledge of Canadian public affairs and, Mr. Speaker, she is bilingual.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Yes, but she is the wife of a minister of the crown.


John B. Stewart: The remarks now made by the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) respecting this appointment, even although more restrained than those which we are accustomed to hearing from him, are surprising in view of the fact that this appointment was made several months prior to the date on which the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine (Mr. SauvS) was sworn of the privy council. Incidentally, the pages of history are not devoid of illustrations of men and women who have made great contributions to national affairs, each in his or her own way. I would hope the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm (Mr. Pigeon) would not wish to deprive his illustrious province of sharing that record of proud cultural achievement.



PEACE RIVER


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, my question is not of quite such a personal nature as the previous one, but it is one which concerns national interests. The other day I asked the minister the following question:
Has the B.C. hydro and power authority asked the minister for his approval for the flooding of the reservoir behind the Peace river dam without
8, 1964	4079
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion the removal of forest growth and vegetation except for the partial clearing of certain channels necessary to meet the requirements for very limited navigation?
I asked that question because of the concern of a number of people in British Columbia in the conservation of our natural resources, and because we are quite reliably informed that the B.C. hydro authority, because of certain expenses and circumstances that exist, intends to destroy several billion feet of timber without removing it from the basin. With this will go a certain destruction of fish and wildlife, with certain impediments to navigation, and also with a great destruction of the aesthetic values, or what I should call the intangible values, which we have discussed in recent weeks in the external affairs committee.
This matter was brought to my attention by a friend of mine who was very close to the B.C. hydro authority, and I notice several questions have been asked by the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands (Mr. Cameron) of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Deschatelets), with respect to the same question as to whether a licence had been issued for the building of this dam.
As recorded at page 2832 of Hansard for May 1, the Minister of Public Works said this:
Hon. members will recall that months ago we had secured an opinion from the Department of Justice to make sure that at the point of dam construction the Peace river was navigable. The question has also been raised as to whether the legislation as it stands is binding on the crown in the right of a province. These are questions of legal interpretation as to the precise terms of the Navigable Waters Protections Act. There are a number of amendments to that act that would be desirable, and when they are brought forward action will be recommended to remove the uncertainty to which I have referred, and to make clear the extent of the application of the act. In the immediate case, as the project is now under construction, a licence cannot be applied for, under the terms of the act, until the work is completed.
Then he went on to say, as recorded on the next page:
It is intended to review this information with the British Columbia hydro and power authority to make sure there is no risk of prejudice to navigation and, as I said previously, amendments to the act would be desirable to remove the uncertainties; and we intend to introduce such amendments. In the meantime there exists complete co-operation with the British Columbia hydro and power authority to ensure security of navigation in the area. I hope this information will be found satisfactory by those hon. members most interested in the matter.
As a matter of fact, the matter is still in uncertain circumstances. When I received this information from Victoria I got in touch with the Department of Public Works and they informed me they had received certain

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion communications from the B.C. hydro authority. I told them I intended to ask this question, but just before coming into the house at 2.30 I was advised I should ask this question of the Department of Transport, as it was now handling the matter. I did ask the Acting Minister of Transport and my question was ruled out of order. That is why I am speaking now. Tonight I see the genial minister of northern affairs (Mr. Laing) is prepared to leap to his feet to answer my question, but this all indicates, shall I say, a sense of ambiguity as to who is responsible for this information. I am sure that when we have heard from the minister we will have more information than we have had to date.
I want him to answer the following questions. (1) Has the British Columbia hydro power authority applied for a licence to build a dam, and when? (2) What are the specifications of the procedure to be followed in clearing the basin of its timber resources, and are they intending to issue a licence and permit B.C. hydro authority to destroy billions of feet of merchantable timber; did they apply for a licence to flood this timber and at the same time to cut various channels needed to permit navigation on certain areas in this long basin which, I understand, is close to 250 miles in extent? (3) Can the minister report any progress with respect to the application of B.C. hydro for this permit?
We are concerned about this. We should like to get answers and we intend to follow it up closely. We are of the opinion that what happens on the Peace river will establish a pattern to be followed on the Columbia, and we want to make certain that these resources are properly dealt with. We want to protect our wildlife by making certain that the natural resources of the Peace river are protected and that an application for a licence is not complied with until this government has an assurance that the basin will be cleared according to standards proposed by the fish and game federation of British Columbia, and the rod and gun clubs of the interior of British Columbia, the west Kootenay and the east Kootenay. I look forward to the minister's reply and perhaps we will go away better informed than we are to date.


Arthur Laing: I wish I could remain as genial as indicated by the hon. gentleman in answering this question. I would point out he can understand how I was confused with his question because he has brought in two questions, permission to


construct the dam and protection for river traffic down valley.
Now he has introduced in his question of June 2 the matter of whether or not permission has been sought by the government of British Columbia to flood the timber behind the dam. I think there are some 680 square miles about to be flooded when the dam is completed and I will accept the hon. member's figure that there are probably three or four billion feet of timber there. I remember distinctly the government indicated that it intended to harvest this timber before the dam was flooded. I imagine the hon. member thinks that the action he believes is about to be taken is in contradiction of the process used in the case of Buttle lake, where I believe the roots were removed and grass seed planted on the side of the lake.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: As is quite right.


Arthur Laing: I do not know whether this will be done or not. I have not seen a statement in the press that it is the intention of the government of British Columbia to flood the timber and leave it there. It was certainly stated that they intended to harvest the timber in the basin. I assume the hon. member knows that the timber there is crown provincial timber and therefore the province of British Columbia has the right to do anything it wishes with the timber without seeking a permit from the government of Canada.



BROADCASTING


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, it is a very serious question that I should like to submit to the house. It concerns the Quebec T.V. station CFCM which rented weekly programs to separatist parties and also authorized adepts of the RIN and other movements such as the Phalange, to use its facilities to speak in abusive language.
Of course, I would not want this admonishment to be considered as a direct attack on a personal friend, Mr. Jean Pouliot, a very brilliant man, who is director of the Quebec division and also the son of Dr. Adrien Pouliot, one of the great pioneers of French broadcasting in western Canada.
However, a very serious problem arises. One party, namely the RIN, intends to run candidates at the next election and, for that reason, it proposes to use television to make its views known.
Section 10 of the Broadcasting Act stipulates that programs must be essentially Canadian. This means that all programs must be essentially Canadian. But American programs are allowed. There is nothing against so-called

Canadian programs. This section does not prohibit such programs over a fundamentally Canadian network. But it is exaggerated to allow anti-Canadian programs, programs that split the Canadian confederation, and I feel that this is a flagrant violation of section 10 of the Broadcasting Act.
Because we must avoid at any cost throwing our country into another political crisis when demagogues will have the opportunity to be heard as much as they want, to condemn confederation and try to destroy Canada.
Such a thing must be prevented. That is why I ask tonight the minister or his representative to be kind enough to call the attention of the board of broadcast governors to that problem, so that it will investigate, consider and listen to the recording of the speeches which were delivered in order to determine the extent to which the law was violated and what kind of sanctions can be imposed.
Mr. Speaker, I insist. Everywhere we hear talk of separatism. Mayor Jean Drapeau and the minister of natural resources of Quebec speak of two associated states; the St. Jean Baptiste societies condemn co-operative federalism. We wonder where we are going with all that.
We must avoid, at all cost, another phenomenon like Caouette, emerging in this country, because I even say I am sure that there are separatist members sitting in this house. We must prevent such a phenomenon, such an attack against confederation, and we must avoid such a political upheaval.
I will point out, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Has the hon. member for Lotbiniere completed his remarks?


Auguste Choquette: No, Mr. Speaker. I stopped because of the point of order being raised. However, I wish to continue my remarks. I would ask the hon. member to be kind enough-


Gilbert F. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I raised a point of order.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. Is the hon. member for Shefford rising on a point of order?
8,	1964	4081
Proceedings on Adjournment Motion


Gilbert F. Rondeau: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member referred to the RIN and to separatism.
I would ask him to keep to his text and to the question under consideration because right now he is the best example of a demagogue one could imagine.


Auguste Choquette: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's argument is both childish and stupid.
I say we must prevent another upheaval and the appearance of another Caouette. We must prevent government instability and accuse separatists of openly flouting the law when they condemn confederation and call for its dissolution. We are threatened and that is what I want to prevent.
I would ask the minister or his representative to have an investigation carried out in connection with those programs and to ensure that the latter are no longer carried over the Canadian network. We have a right to insist on the application of section 10. We have a right to insist on a basically Canadian network.


John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, I should not like anybody to be misled by the interpretation of section 10 of the Broadcasting Act adopted inadvertently by the hon. member. That section does not refer to the political views enunciated by speakers on Canadian radio or Canadian television. Now that the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Choquette) has identified for the house the particular program and the particular station that has caused him distress, I can assure him that his comments will be drawn to the attention of the board of broadcast governors, which board has the right to review the log of a station to ascertain if its policy with respect to equal treatment for political and controversial views is being respected. I say this merely to reassure the hon. member, and not to imply in the slightest degree that the program in question, which I did not see, was unfortunate.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 10.27 p.m.

		
		
		
		
		
		
		
		
		
		
		
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Tuesday, June 9, 1984