1964-11-04

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Macquarrie: 1.	How many trucks, trailers, automobiles, buses, were carried by the Borden-Cape Tormentine ferry service in each of the years 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963?
2.	How many railway freight cars were carried in the same years?
3.	How many automobile passengers were carried in these years and, how many railway passengers?
4.	What are the figures in each category mentioned in questions 1, 2 and 3 for January 1 to September 30, 1964?
5.	What was the amount received from sale of transportation tickets in each of these years?
Mr.	Jean-Charles	Cantin	(Parliamentary
Secretary to	Minister of Transport): The
management of Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	1953, 102,680; 1954, 104,735; 1955, 123,145;
1956,	127,955;	1957,	140,190;	1958, 142,000;1959,	157,778;	1960,	161,420;	1961, 178,474;1962,	199,189; 1963, 214,409.2.	1953, 46,885; 1954, 47,819; 1955, 53,286; 1956, 55,979; 1957, 50,313; 1958, 54,983; 1959, 54,377; 1960, 51,241; 1961, 44,674; 1962, 43,933;1963,	46,238.3.	It is not possible to determine the actual number of railway passengers for the years 1953 through to 1961, as a breakdown of this information was not kept prior to the year1962.	Automobile passengers including driver	Railway passengers1953	291,130	-1954	292,509	-1955	335,861	-1956	324,257	-1957	346,885	-1958	351,131	-1959	367,864	-1960	390,613	-1961	426,495	-1962	484,327	18,7811963	523,543	24,2744.	As statistical data for the month of September are not yet available, the following information relates only to the months from January to August 1964.
Number trucks, trailers, automobiles, buses, 172,797; railway freight cars carried, 37,433; number automobile passengers, 441,275; number railway passengers, 23,953.
5.
Year	Vehicles	Passengers	Total1963	$183,472	$108,600	$292,0721954	188,713	108,164	296,8771955	229,936	125,982	355,9181956	222,270	131,033	353,3031957	252,415	138,685	391,1001958	261,728	130,272	392,0001959	312,300	173,500	485,8001960	324,100	178,800	502,9001961	338,000	187,100	525,1001962	376,103	213,399	589,5021963	379,235	222,669	601,904C.N.R.	LANGUAGE	COURSES,	QUEBEC
Question No. 2,097-Mr. Marcoux:
1.	Did the C.N.R. organize English courses for French speaking employees and French courses for English speaking employees in the Montreal area and, if so, since what date?
2.	Are the courses free of charge or are the employees entitled to a full or partial refund?
3.	What is the exact number of employees, male and female, who benefit by such courses?
4.	Has the C.N.R. organized English courses for French speaking employees and French courses for English speaking employees in the Quebec city area and if so, since what date?
5.	Are those courses free of charge or are the employees entitled to a full or partial refund?
6.	What is the exact number of employees, male and female, who benefit by such courses?


Mr. Jean-Charles Cantin (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport):: The
management of the Canadian National Railways advises as follows:
1.	French courses for English speaking employees commenced in September 1963 in the Montreal area; English courses for French speaking employees are in the course of being organized and teaching should commence shortly.
2.	The entire tuition cost of the courses is borne by the company.

Questions
3.	Three hundred and ninety-seven employees, of which 64 were female, have benefited from these courses.
4,	5 and 6. Neither English nor French courses have been organized by the company in the Quebec city area.


PERSONNEL IN FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS OFFICE
Mr. Graffiey: 1.	How many officials are now working in the privy council office of federal-provincial relations?
2.	How many of the above mentioned officials are working on a full time basis in this office?


Mr. Jack Davis (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister):: 1. There are two officials specifically attached to the provincial relations secretariat of the privy council office. However, many of the other officials in the privy council office are concerned from time to time with federal-provincial meetings on particular questions with the federal-provincial aspects within their particular fields of responsibility.
2. The total time spent by the two officials working directly for the secretariat would average from two thirds to three quarters of their working time. The time spent by other officials varies considerably, depending on circumstances.


FRENCH CANADIANS IN R.C.A.F. AND R.C.N.
Mr. Gregoire: 1.	How many French Canadians occupy key positions in the R.C.A.F.?
2.	How many French Canadians are there in the R.C.A.F.?
3.	Are personnel based in Ontario allowed to send their children to French language schools subsidized by the Department of National Defence?
4.	How many French Canadians will remain after the integration of the three services?
5.	Is consideration being given to the appointment of French Canadians as commanding officers of R.C.A.F. bases in Quebec?
6.	Do French Canadians in English provinces have their own schools as do English Canadians stationed at bases in Quebec?
7.	What is the proportion of French Canadians in the R.C.N.?


Hon. Lucien Cardin (Associate Minister of National Defence):: This question is in 7 parts. The answer to parts 1, 2, 4 and 7 is information not available.
3. Military personnel residing on D.N.D. property in Ontario who wish to have their dependants attend French or bilingual schools, are given financial assistance.
5.	The general policy of the Department of National Defence is to appoint bilingual
[Mr. Cantin.l
officers as commanding officers of R.C.A.F. bases in Quebec.
6.	The Department of National Defence does not maintain schools in provinces other than Quebec solely for French speaking dependants. However, the department contributes to the payment of taxes to the local separate school board with respect to the children of French speaking military personnel who live on crown property and who request such assistance; it contributes the equivalent of such taxes if, for some reason, the child attends a French language or bilingual school outside the district.


ROYAL COMMISSION RECOMMENDATIONS ON MEDICAL EDUCATION
Mr. Howe (Hamilton: South):
Has the government given consideration to the implementation of the Hall commission report recommendations on medical education, as distinct from the recommendations as a whole, so that the future quality of medical care in Canada will not be jeopardized?


Mr. D. S. Macdonald (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice):: No. The
report of the royal commission on health services is being intensively studied and the recommendations dealing with medical education are receiving a great deal of attention, but must be related to other aspects of the report.


OWNERSHIP OF OFFSHORE MINERAL RIGHTS, B.C.
Mr. Basford: 1.	What progress was made at the recent federal provincial meeting with regard to settling any conflicting claims to the oil and mineral rights of the offshore area of British Columbia?
2.	What is the immediate course of action proposed to be taken by the government of Canada to determine the question of the legal ownership of the offshore oil and mineral rights in the offshore area of British Columbia?


Mr. John N. Turner (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: 1. At the meeting in October last of the Prime Minister and the provincial premiers, the question of conflicting claims with regard to jurisdiction over offshore mineral rights, including oil and minerals off the coast of British Columbia, was raised and discussed. This was the first occasion in which this question was raised formally as a subject for discussion at a federal-provincial conference and it was not expected that any decisions would be reached

at that time. At the conclusion of the discussion of this matter the Prime Minister indicated that the federal government would shortly be in touch with the provinces so that steps might be taken to move to an early definition of the respective positions of the federal government and the provincial governments.
2. At the federal-provincial conference the federal government proposed to the provinces that a reference be taken to the Supreme Court of Canada so that the question of jurisdiction could be settled. It was also proposed that the terms of the reference to the supreme court should be on an agreed basis with the provinces if possible and that some arrangements be entered into between the federal government and the provincial governments to ensure that there would be no interference with resource development while consideration by the Supreme Court of Canada takes place.


REPRESENTATIONS BY FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
Mr. Howe (Hamilton: South):
Has the government received representations from the Canadian federation of the blind requesting a royal commission to study the problems of the blind in Canada, and requesting national unemployment insurance coverage for the blind and, if so, what has been their reply?


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Re royal commission: a request was received but not agreed to.
Re unemployment insurance coverage: no.


'DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY STAFF
Mr. Irvine: 1.	What is the total number of employees, as of October 30, 1964, in the newly formed Department of Industry?
2.	What is the total payroll of this department?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Industry):: 1. 328.
2. The total payroll for salaries for the employees on strength from April 1 to October 30 was $1,330,708.41.


GROWTH RATE OF CANADIAN CITIES
Mr. Mather: What was the percentage rate of growth, for Canadian cities with more than 100,000 population, during 1963, or in the most recent recorded period?
Questions


Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The estimated rates of growth between 1962 and 1963 of Canadian cities of 100,000 population and over are shown in the following statement. For purposes of comparison these population estimates relate to standardized metropolitan boundaries established for the 1961 census.
Estimated population of major* 1 metropolitan areas
June 1, 1963 and 1962 Estimated population
Metropolitan	June 1,	June 1,	Percentagearea2 3 4	1963	1962	increaseTotal	7,712,000	7,535,000	2.3Calgary	300,000	290,000	3.4Edmonton	362,000	349,000	3.7Hamilton	408,000	399,000	2.3London	188,000	185,000	1.6Montreal	2,205,000	2,156,000	2.3Ottawa	458,000	446,000	2.7Quebec	376,000	366,000	2.7Toronto	1,925,000	1,869,000	3.0Vancouver	809,000	798,000	1.4Windsor	196,000	194,000	1.0Winnipeg	485,000	483,000	0.4
'With 100,000 population or over in the city proper at the 1961 census.
"Areas as of the 1961 census.


DEFENCE DEPARTMENT EXPENDITURES
Mr. Mather: What is the total amount in dollars of the Department of National Defence expenditures in the period 1946 to 1963?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of of National Defence):: The total amount of expenditures for the period 1946 up to and including the fiscal year 1963-64 is $23,309,133,726.


CORN IMPORTS AND PRICES
Mr. McCutcheon: 1.	How much corn was imported by Canada from the U.S.A. in 1961, 1962 and 1963?
2.	How much corn was imported by Canada from other countries in each of these years?
3.	What was the lowest price reported at country elevators in each of the years mentioned?
4.	What was the highest price reported at country elevators in each of the years mentioned?


Mitchell William Sharp: 1 and 2. Imports of corn by countries for the years 1961-1963 were as follows:
9742	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
Class 167-	1961	1962	1963Indian corn	Bushels	Dollars	Bushels	Dollars	Bushels	Dollars(maize) shelled	'000	'000	'000	'000	'000	'000United States	22,697	27,403	34,777	43,505	22,957	32,266Other countries	(Argentina)	1	3	-	-	-	-3.	Cash prices of Ontario corn No. 2 Yellow1
lowest price
Calendar year	-dollars per bushel -
1961	October 30-November	3, 1961	1.101962	October 15-October 19,	1962	1.151963	October 21-October 25,	1963	1.25
'F.o.b. Chatham basis 15.5 per cent moisture.
4.
Calendar year
Cash prices of Ontario corn No. 2 Yellow1 highest price -dollars per bushel -
1961	August 8-September 22, 1961	1.301962	July 3-July 6, 1962	1.451963	August 12-September 6 andSeptember 16-20, 1963	1.60
'F.o.b. Chatham basis 15.5 per cent moisture.


GOVERNMENT PUBLICATION RESPECTING POSTAGE STAMPS
Mr. Howard: 1.	Has the queen's printer recently published a book entitled "Some Canadian Postage Stamps" or some similar title and, if so, how many such books were published, at what cost for (a) printing, and (b) purchase of stamps from the Post Office Department, and what was the selling price thereof?
2.	Has the government any knowledge, based upon the number of such books which were published, of the value such books now have to collectors and whether or not the Coin Centre of Canada, 535 Sussex street, Ottawa, obtained a quantity of these books and, if so, how many?
3.	Does the queen's printer have any plans to produce a follow-up type of book containing stamps succeeding in issue those contained in the book referred to in part 1, and, if so, how many such books are to be published, what is the estimated cost for (a) printing, and (b) purchase of stamps from the Post Office Department and what will be the selling price?


Hon. Maurice Lamonlagne (Secretary of State):: 1. The queen's printer has recently published a book entitled "Some Canadian Postage Stamps"; 793 copies have been printed so far and 203 copies are still in production; (a) cost of printing: $3,096; (b) purchase of stamps from Post Office Department: $3,680; selling price of publication $12.50.
2.	The government as such has no knowledge of the value of such books to collectors;

the Coin Centre of Canada, 535 Sussex street, Ottawa, obtained 350 copies.
3. The queen's printer is negotiating at present with the Post Office Department for the preparation of a new edition of the book on Canadian stamps, but no decision has been arrived at, or arrangements made, as to quantity to be published, cost involved and selling price.


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. J. B. Stewart (Parliamentary Secretary to Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, motion 182 is acceptable to the government subject to the usual reservations concerning privileged documents. Will Your Honour please call motions 170 and 181.


SALE OF JACQUES CARTIER BARRACKS RESERVE LAND
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 182-Mr. Knowles:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence, dated since January 1, 1964, between the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources and any persons, organizations or public bodies, regarding the sale of any portion of the Jacques Cartier barracks reserve land, or regarding any proposals to seH such land.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 170-Mr. Grafftey:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents, prepared by the office for federal-provincial relations in privy council since the creation of said office for federal-provincial relations, relating to federal government suggestions and proposals for the improvement of permanent consultative machinery between the federal government and the provinces.
John (Jack) Davis: Mr. Speaker, motion No. 170, made by the hon. member for Brome-Missis-quoi and dated October 14, 1964, is probably out of order because these documents are of the nature of privilege documents. I am informed further as follows. There was no exchange of correspondence on proposals for the establishment of permanent federal-provincial consultative machinery as such. However, this question was placed on the agenda of the federal-provincial conference held in Ottawa in November, 1963. It was raised again in Quebec city in March, 1964.
At the latter conference the Prime Minister informed his provincial colleagues of the decision of the federal government to establish a provincial relations secretariat in the privy council office. The terms of reference of this secretariat were outlined to the house on May 12, 1964. This arrangement is working well, and as it appears to be meeting the needs of the federal government and the provinces, no further changes are contemplated at this time.
In view of this information perhaps the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi will wish to withdraw his motion.


Mr. Heward Grafftey (Brome-Missisquoi):: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will withdraw the motion at the present time. The hon. gentleman's answer confirms my suspicion that no practical steps have been taken in this important area of government.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.


ORGANIZATION OF DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY
[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 181-Mr. Grafftey:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all charts and documents prepared by the Department of Industry relating to the administrative organization and jurisdictional organization of the said department.
Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, with respect to charts and documents prepared by the Department of Industry relating to the administration and or-
Question of Privilege
ganization of the department, in general one might say two types of documents of this character have been prepared. One is for internal use only, and under the rules of the house they are not normally producible. The others are of a character intended for publication and there will be no objection on the part of the government to the production of these charts which were prepared and intended for publication.


William Heward Grafftey: That is acceptable.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. M. J. Moreau (York-Scarborough):: rise on a question of privilege affecting all members of the house and concerning a matter of national importance. My question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, arises out of a press report by Arthur Blakely in this morning's Montreal Gazette. This report refers to a memorandum sent last month to former cabinet and party colleagues by the former minister of justice, Mr. Fulton.
Last Friday the hon. member for Bow River, during the debate on interim supply, quoted from this document in an attempt to show that, and I quote the hon. member's words appearing on page 9632 of Hansard.'.
That is the point I was trying to make when I first rose in my place this afternoon, that this new policy is placing a brand new interpretation on the meaning of the delegated powers and residuary powers-
It is my contention that the hon. member quoted from the Fulton memorandum in such a way-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Maurice John Moreau: -as to not fully and accurately represent the views contained therein-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Maurice John Moreau: -a fact clearly revealed by this morning's press report in which extracts of the memorandum appear. I quote from the press report-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Maurice John Moreau: I quote:
-that these provisions-


Mr. Balcer:: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-

Question of Privilege


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would like to hear the end of this short statement before I decide on the matter.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker-


Maurice John Moreau: -do not confer any new jurisdiction or power on the provinces nor do they have the effect of diminishing the federal jurisdiction or power in the slightest.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would request that the hon. member for Bow River be asked to table the document from which he was quoting, so the house may be fully informed of all the facts.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Winnipeg South Centre):: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order I respectfully ask your ruling as to whether this was a point of privilege. It appears to me to be just a flagrant abuse of the rules, and is the type of thing that should be struck out of the record entirely.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: On a point-


Gordon Minto Churchill: I asked a legitimate question of Your Honour. Is this a legitimate matter of privilege?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is a legitimate matter of privilege.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I had not intended to raise it at all, but the hon. member for Bow River quoted what he alleged was an extract from this document in order to refute the argument I had made in the house earlier that day. The fact is that I have the whole document here in front of me, and the interpretation which Mr. Fulton puts on it is the exact opposite of the interpretation which the hon. member for Bow River tried to foist on the house on Friday. I would be glad to table this document, if hon. members agree, and have it printed in Hansard.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear. Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Having taken advice I am glad to say my own opinion is confirmed that this is a matter of debate and not a question of privilege.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


On the orders of the day:


Mr. Marcel Prud'Homme (Si. Denis):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Justice if he is acquainted with the statement made by the former minister of justice, Mr. Davie Fulton, concerning the "domiciliation" of what is known as the British North America Act and which, we hope, will soon be known as the Canadian constitution?


Hon. Guy Favreau (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I read about it in an article published in this morning's Gazette and, in so far as the facts as reported by the Gazette are concerned, the statement is exact, precise and true.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Real Caouette (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Forestry?
Several days ago I asked the minister of "rural displacement"-pardon me, of "rural development" the extent of implementation which had been reached concerning ARDA, in co-operation with the department of agriculture of the province of Quebec or with the various departments of that province. At that time the minister promised to make a statement in a few days. May we expect a statement before the end of the debate on the flag?


Hon. Maurice Sauve (Minister of Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, I apologize, but the hon. member for Villeneuve never asked me that question during the normal question period. Anyway, ARDA applies in its entirety in the province of Quebec and in all districts of that province. As we all know, the provinces must initiate any measure respecting ARDA, and only the provinces can propose to the federal government concrete programs and projects for the districts in which they are interested. We have no initiative in that field.


David Réal Caouette: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
Inasmuch as proposals can only come from the provinces, do cases not occur where the department would suggest under exceptional

circumstances, to the provinces, including the province of Quebec, to consider designating certain so-called under-developed areas?


Maurice Sauvé: No, Mr. Speaker. The question of designating areas is entirely up to the provincial government, and that goes for Quebec as well as for the other provinces.


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question?
Could the minister tell us whether his department is responsible for the administration of the Crop Insurance Act and, if so, what have been the results of its policy in the province of Quebec until now?


Maurice Sauvé: Crop insurance comes under the Department of Agriculture. Since there is no provincial crop insurance legislation in Quebec, federal legislation cannot apply there.


Mr. Gilbert Rondeau (Shefford):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry. It stems from a speech the minister delivered before the Canadian federation of agriculture, where he stated that $11,500,000 were granted to the four western provinces under ARDA, and $6,000,000 to the central provinces of Quebec and Ontario.
Can the minister tell us if he deems that those amounts are normal, in proportion to the population of Canada?


Maurice Sauvé: Mr. Speaker, in the first stages of the ARDA program, grants had been provided for every province, and evidently, some provinces, for reasons of their own, refused to take advantage of all the benefits provided under ARDA. This explains the difference between the amounts provided for and the amounts they received.



QUEBEC-ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS DURING COMING WINTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Henri Latulippe (Compton-Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Labour.
In view of representations received from several farmers of my area, who are wondering whether the government can help them to find some work during the winter, since they are not entitled to unemployment benefits, have no income, have large families and many obligations to meet, could the min-
Inquiries of the Ministry ister tell me what I should answer in such cases?


Mr. Speaker:: It does seem to me that this is such a wide question it would be almost impossible to give an answer, and therefore is not in order.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of National Defence.
Has the minister received representations from the student association of Sherbrooke and Bishop Universities protesting against the abolition of the U.N.T.D. in Sherbrooke?
If so, could he tell us whether he intends to reconsider his decision, so that those two university groups may enjoy the same advantages as the other Canadian university students?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Representations were received from the association as well as from a number of interested members of parliament on both sides of the house by both the associate minister and myself following the detailed statement I made here on September 16 with regard to the over-all university training plan sponsored by the Department of National Defence.
In reply to these representations it was pointed out that the naval training unit at the Universite de Sherbrooke and Bishop's University was one of eight to be closed down in universities across the country due to the reduction and reorganization of the Royal Canadian naval reserve. It was further explained that the decisions were based on the number of cadets being absorbed into the active lists, the nearness of units to the associated reserve divisions and to the enrolment patterns.
In so far as the decision to close the U.N.T.D. at the Universite de Sherbrooke and Bishop's University is concerned, this decision was based on the fact that the parent division, H.M.C.S. Donnacona, received an adequate supply of U.N.T.D. graduates from the universities located in Montreal; that it was located some 120 miles from the parent division, and that some difficulty was being
9746	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry experienced in providing adequate instructional staff in Sherbrooke. Up to the present time only four graduates from the U.N.T.D. units at the Universite de Sherbrooke and Bishop's University have been absorbed into the R.C.N./R active list. In view of these circumstances it is not intended to alter the decision.



REQUEST FOR POLICY STATEMENT ON NAVAL SHIPBUILDING PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Calgary North):: should like to direct a question to the Associate Minister of National Defence. In view of press reports in regard to announcements of policy concerning a naval shipbuilding program which he is reported to have made, will the hon. gentleman inform the house as to the statements he actually did make and what policy, if any, has been decided upon with regard to a naval shipbuilding program?


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: The occasion on which these questions were asked, and on which I gave answers, was Exercise "Yeoman" in Argentia. During the course of the interrogation I was asked whether I thought a sealift capacity in our navy was a good thing. I for one think a sealift capacity would be extremely useful to the navy, and I said as much. I also stated that no decision had yet been taken as far as a naval shipbuilding program was concerned, but that some decision might be expected within a month or three weeks.



REPORTED AGREEMENT ON PRODUCTION OF NEW TACTICAL AIRCRAFT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence. Is the minister able to tell us whether there is in fact an informal agreement with respect to the joint production with Great Britain and the United States of the McDonnell Phantom tactical aircraft, and if all that is waiting is a formal ratification by the respective governments?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is in the negative.



POSSIBLE PHASING OUT OF SECTIONS OF MID-CANADA LINE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to


the Minister of National Defence. Can the minister inform the house whether the government are now planning any further phasing out of sections of the mid-Canada line?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, Mr. Speaker; there are no plans in that direction at the present time.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice whether he has reached a decision with regard to the setting up of the commissions or committees he plans with respect to penological matters.


Guy Favreau: have already answered that question in the house. I told the house that for the immediate future two committees are planned, one a parliamentary committee to deal with the physical institutions of detention, and the other a committee composed of experts which will deal with the broader field of correction in Canada.



ST. VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY-SOLITARY CONFINEMENT OF PRISONER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Qu'Appelle):: I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice. It deals with a question I put to the Prime Minister a week ago last Monday. This referred to an interview with the warden of St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary concerning a French Canadian prisoner who had been sentenced to 14 years because of his participation in a riot two years ago and who has been kept in solitary confinement, his letters not getting to his family or to others, and other matters. I asked the Prime Minister to request the Minister of Justice to give an explanation to the house of these circumstances and say whether these charges are true.


Guy Favreau: I will be in a position to report on this matter at the beginning of next week.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Prime Minister but, in his absence, I shall put it to the Acting Prime Minister or to the President of the Privy Council.
Considering that next Wednesday, members of parliament will have a holiday under the new standing order of the house and that members did not have any holidays or any free time to discuss future legislation with their constituents, does the government intend to consult the leaders of the various parties in order to grant us a long holiday, that is, on the 11th, 12th and 13th?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Acting Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, this suggestion is not without merit. I shall take it up tomorrow with the Prime Minister who will then be in a position no doubt to advise the house.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Heath Macquarrie (Queens):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry based on his reply to a similar question yesterday and my mystification arising therefrom. Is the minister able to report any success in his efforts to find alternative employment for the workers at the Enamel and Heating plant in Charlottetown?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I regret that yesterday in connection with the hon. member's question I heard the reference to Enamel and Heating rather than the reference to Charlottetown. While my answer yesterday related to the general affairs of the company, in response to the hon. member's specific question I regret very much to say that in spite of the most diligent and intensive efforts we have been unable to find alternative work for the plant of Enamel and Heating in Charlottetown.



TORONTO-REPRESENTATIONS RESPECTING TRAINING OF UNEMPLOYED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Michael Starr (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the Minister
Inquiries of the Ministry of Labour, asking him whether he has received a report from the metropolitan Toronto advisory committee on the training and retraining of unemployed workers, which has been approved and adopted by the metropolitan council. If so, has a date been set for conferring with these people on this very important subject?


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minisier of Labour):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received this very interesting and helpful brief. At the present time it is under consideration. If a date has not yet been set it will be set in the near future.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jean Chretien (St. Maurice-Lafleche):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport.
Could the minister tell us what are the reasons that prevented the setting up of bilingual systems as regards the control of production in the C.N.R.'s workshops, at Pointe St. Charles, before the railway company was forced to do so following pressures on the part of the general public?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This surely is a question for the order paper.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. He ward Grafftey (Brome-Missisquoi):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Justice, and its urgency is based on the fact that a very serious charge has been made against a federal crown corporation which is meant to unite this country. Has the attorney general of the province of Quebec, or have any other officials of the Quebec government including Mr. Arsenault himself, offered to the R.C.M.P. or to anybody in the minister's office any definite names or definite facts relating to the allegation by Mr. Arsenault of communist activities in the C.B.C.?
Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, I will be meeting the attorney
9748	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry general of Quebec tomorrow, and this is a matter which I will be taking up with him.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, would the minister meet at the same time with Hon. Bona Arsenault?


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, I wish to put a supplementary question to the minister.
Is it his intention to discuss also accusations of communist infiltration into the Quebec Liberal federation?


Guy Favreau: Mr. Speaker, we shall discuss those accusations which may be in the public interest.


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. Will the minister make a report to the house following his meeting with the appropriate authorities in Quebec regarding this serious charge against a crown corporation which is meant to unite this country?



OFFICIAL STATUS OF MEMBER FOR RED DEER ON AFRICAN TOUR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. S. Smallwood (Battle River-Cam-rose):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Prime Minister in the absence of the Prime Minister, arising out of a report which appeared in the Montreal Gazette to the effect that Mr. Thompson is touring Africa on behalf of the Canadian government. I should like to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether that represents the facts, and the hon. member for Red Deer is presently touring Africa on behalf of the Canadian government. If so, has an order in council been passed to authorize such an appointment and the payment of his expenses?


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. This is a question for the order paper. I do not see any particular urgency, inasmuch as that gentleman will be touring for some time.


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Digby-Annapolis-Kings):: Mr. Speaker, when someone is reported in the press as representing the Canadian government, surely that is a matter of some importance. The house is surely entitled to an answer as to whether he was appointed by order in council or became a member of the cabinet recently in some surreptitious fashion.


Mr. Speaker:: There is no doubt that the question is of interest, but I have serious doubt as to whether it is in order. My instructions from the house are that questions should not inquire as to whether statements appearing in the press are correct.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. Any expenses in this regard must be paid by the Canadian taxpayer, and if we are going to spend money sending people around the world I think we should know about it.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is making allegations rather than asking questions.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a supplementary question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. My question is quite simple. Is the hon. member for Red Deer representing in any way the Canadian government during his tour in Africa?


Hon. Paul  Marlin@Secretary of Stale for External Affairs: Mr. Speaker, in view of your ruling concerning the question put by the hon. member for Battle River-Camrose, I think I should respect your ruling and therefore I could not answer the hon. member's question.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I think that having been in this house for so long the Acting Prime Minister should know the procedure well enough to know that the question asked by the hon. member for Battle River-Camrose was out of order, but that the one asked by the hon. member for Villeneuve did not refer to any newspaper report. On the contrary, it was asked in accordance with our standing orders and the instructions given to the Speaker, and therefore I do not think it is up to the Acting Prime Minister to decide whether the question is in order or not.
If it is in order, I think he should give an answer.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who is Acting Prime Minister. I should like to ask him in his capacity as Acting Prime Minister whether the hon. member for Red Deer is touring Africa by appointment on behalf of the Canadian government.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The point in suggesting that this was a question which should be put on the order paper was that there was not that desperate urgency that it had to be answered this afternoon. If the hon. member is not satisfied with this suggestion he always has the privilege of debating it at ten o'clock by giving notice.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: That does not give us an answer as to what they are doing with public money, so we will give up.



CANADIAN COASTGUARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald Maclnnis (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Does the Department of National Defence receive the full co-operation of other government departments in placing qualified personnel who are being prematurely retired.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have received excellent co-operation from other government departments in this matter.


Malcolm MacInnis: I have a supplementary question. Will the minister then indicate why some qualified officer has not been appointed as a planning officer for the new coastguard college? Mr. Speaker, I think I have posed a very fair question to the Minister of National Defence. As I indicated before, if he does not choose to answer it I will accept that refusal-


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman will send me the specifics of his question I will be glad to refer them to the appropriate department for consideration.


Malcolm MacInnis: I have a further supplementary question. If the Minister of National Defence had been following the affairs of his department he would realize that there is not full co-operation-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Is the hon. member asking a question or making a charge?


Malcolm MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, the minister has informed me that there is full co-operation between his department and other government departments, and has now requested me to send him the particulars of something of which he has said he is already aware.
Inquiries of the Ministry SHIPPING



REPORTED LACK OF SERVICE TO CARIBBEAN AREA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerald A. Regan (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. My question arises out of a report in this afternoon's Ottawa Journal-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Gerald Augustine Regan: -to the effect that the Canadian commercial counsellor in Guatemala, Mr. Lemieux, said that Canadian exporters are missing the boat because of the lack of adequate shipping services to the Caribbean. Will the minister investigate the desirability of providing some form of government assistance to promote frequent sailings to this important area?


Mr. Speaker:: That is a question for the order paper.


Gerald Augustine Regan: Mr. Speaker, I intend to debate the matter at ten o'clock tomorrow evening.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Barry Mather (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a non-controversial question to the Minister of Fisheries. Can the minister state where and when the next meeting of the parties to the international fisheries convention for the north Pacific is to reconvene and where it will be held?
Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of
Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, as I stated in my report to the house on October 1 at the conclusion of the negotiations which took place here in Ottawa among Canada, Japan and the United States, and in answer to a question addressed to me by the hon. member for Queens, I then said, I am not now in a position to say definitely when the meeting will be reconvened. The United States delegation has expressed the hope of its government that the next meeting will be held in the United States at a time and place to be determined by the three governments concerned. Following the events which took place yesterday in that country I express my sincere hope that the negotiations will take

Inquiries of the Ministry place without undue delay, after a determination of the date and place of the next meeting.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure whether I should direct my question to the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Industry. I am sure the Minister of Finance must approve agreements, but probably the Minister of Industry negotiates them. I should like one of the ministers to inform the house whether reports are correct to the effect that negotiations have been completed between representatives of a Japanese motor car company and the Canadian government, and that these motor cars will be built in Canada. Presumably an announcement will be made within the next few hours in this regard. Is it also correct that if these negotiations have been completed, the industry is going to be established in Nova Scotia?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, the report that negotiations have been completed for the manufacture of Japanese designed motor cars in Nova Scotia is incorrect. A Canadian company proposes to hold a press conference this afternoon at which time an announcement will be made regarding its future intentions. I can say that these intentions do not include an announcement in respect of completed negotiations with a Canadian company for the manufacture of motor cars in Canada.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. On Monday in response to a series of questions the minister gave some information to the house about the results arising from the dominion-provincial conference on Indian affairs. Would the minister be kind enough at some time in the near future to outline to the house the mechanics and details with regard to how the various provincial consultative committees are going to be established, the manner of their selection and the way in which they are going to operate?
[Mr. Robichaud.l


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, I think this is an ideal question for the order paper. It would give us an opportunity to provide more details.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Malcolm MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I put a question to the Minister of Labour in respect to the progress being made in having the maritime union trustees appear before a parliamentary committee. The snakes are out again, Mr. Speaker. I should like a little order, if you don't mind. At that time the minister answered to the effect that a motion was under discussion with the other parties which would refer this matter to the industrial relations committee. I wonder whether the minister would care to amend that statement today.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: No, Mr. Speaker. It is expected to have this motion on the order paper as soon as possible, and my intention in that regard has been conveyed to the representatives of the various other parties. Maybe my words were construed by my hon. friend to mean that the terms of the motion were under discussion. If that was his interpretation I apologize to him, but I did indicate to the other parties what my intention was.


Malcolm MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, in answering the question yesterday the minister said:
Mr. Speaker, there has been under discussion with representatives of other parties a motion which would refer this matter to the industrial relations committee-
I have made further inquiries to try to find out to what persons in the other parties the minister had spoken, and that is why I put the question.



HISTORIC SITES AND MONUMENTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jack McIntosh (Swiff Current-Maple Creek):: Mr. Speaker, some time ago I directed a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources in regard to Fort Walsh in Saskatchewan. Is he now prepared

to give the house some information with regard to that historic site?


Hon. Arthur Laing (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I think the house is aware that when my estimates were under consideration the hon. member advanced the idea that Fort Walsh should be commemorated, and I think most people are aware of its importance in the history of western Canada. We have had some discussions with the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan with respect to the establishment of a national park in the area in which Fort Walsh is situated.



APPROPRIATION BILL

Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (President of the Privy Council) moved: the second reading of Bill No. C-135, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1965.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker,
before the house deals with the second reading of this bill, there is certainly a two twelfths portion provided for the Department of External Affairs. The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) is gone, but we should have liked to know, whether part of that two twelfths portion under his department is provided for payment of the expenses incurred by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson) while travelling through Africa. We could have found out thus whether, in his tour of Africa, the hon. member for Red Deer is an official delegate of the Canadian government. Maybe another minister could answer this question instead of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, because before voting we should like to know the purpose of these expenditures. Maybe the acting minister, namely the Minister of Transport, could answer that question?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs perhaps the hon. member would be satisfied if I would undertake to take his question as notice, draw it to the attention of the minister and secure an answer.


Some hon. Members:: No.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Batten in the chair.
Appropriation Bill
On clause 1-Short title.
Clifford Silas Smallwood: Mr. Chairman, we are now
studying the spending of money by the government-


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order-maybe the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre wants to raise the same point of order as I do. I believe a report has been adopted by the house concerning the procedure in committee of the whole in studying a bill. It was agreed that if clause 1 was the short title it would be discussed and approved following the consideration of all other clauses of the bill. Inasmuch as clause 1 has to do only with the short title of the bill I think the correct procedure would be to proceed with clause 2 now and return to clause 1 later.


The Deputy Chairman:: The hon. member for Lapointe is quite right. Clause 2.
On clause	2-$740,710,974.77	granted
for 1964-65.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: Mr. Chairman, I understand I can make a few brief remarks on clause 2, which deals with the spending of money by the government. I was unable to get certain information today. I have before me a press report that the hon. member for Red Deer is touring Africa on behalf of the Canadian government. This article appeared in the Montreal Gazette. If I can get this information I will not hold up this supply bill. I should like to know from the government if it is a fact that the hon. member for Red Deer is touring Africa on behalf of the Canadian government. I should like to know if an order in council has been passed covering his appointment and the payment of his travel expenses.
How much is it going to cost the Canadian people to have this member touring Africa on behalf of the dominion government? What good are we going to get from it? Did he go over there to give more information on the space program? If hon. members over there will give me this information I will resume my seat.


George James McIlraith: I regret that I do not have the information the hon. member seeks.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: Yes or no?


George James McIlraith: The minister for external affairs is otherwise committed at the moment.


An hon. Member:: He disappeared in a hurry.

Appropriation Bill


George James McIlraith: I think you will agree that there is important and urgent work for him. His estimates will be before the committee shortly-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George James McIlraith: -and he will be able to give the information in detail. I will be glad to see that those estimates are brought forward at the earliest opportunity.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Perhaps the President of the Privy Council would agree that amongst his colleagues there would be the chairman of the committee that deals with orders in council, and if the appropriate order in council has been passed the minister responsible would certainly be able to give us that information. It would be rather singular to find that such an order in council had been lost in the usual routine. Perhaps the minister could help us in this regard.


George James McIlraith: I will be glad to help the hon. member. I do have a good deal to do with orders in council. I have no recollection of one being passed, but it is the sort of thing on which I shall have to get information and provide it later, as I said when I was asked about the matter in the first instance by the hon. member for Battle River-Camrose.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think we should have the information right now. A question was asked earlier today and it was ignored by the minister for external affairs. Then we had the Minister of Industry saying that he would take the question as notice. Now we have the President of the Privy Council saying he will look into the matter and let us have the information. Let us have the information right now. Is the hon. member for Red Deer travelling in Africa at the expense of the Canadian people? Is he acting on behalf of the government of this country, or what is he doing over there? Surely the government can tell us. Either they say he has been sent on government authority and therefore his expenses are being paid out of the estimates with which we are now dealing, or he is travelling on his own.
I think the house is entitled to an explanation. We have had a press report here indicating that he is representing the Canadian government. Surely the members of the cabinet know something about this. They do not have to take the question as notice; they can give us a definite answer.


George James McIlraith: The hon. gentleman is quite right when he says the house is entitled to the information he requests, but the question is at what point does one give that information.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George James McIlraith: I repeat that I have no knowledge of it myself at all. I do not know whether there was any such order in council. I have already given an undertaking to get the information. I will try to have the estimates of the Department of External Affairs brought before the house within a reasonably short time so that hon. members might ask this type of question, because it is the type of question for committee of supply; but not on an appropriation bill. It should be asked when the items of estimates are before the committee.
In so far as the question asked earlier today is concerned, I must say that in my view the committee is bound by the ruling given by Mr. Speaker at that time, that it was out of order. I do not know if there is much more I can usefully say at this moment.


Mr. Knowles:: Mr. Chairman, I suggest in all seriousness that the government is playing with the house in a manner that is quite unfair. The President of the Privy Council is correct in saying that Mr. Speaker ruled this was not a proper question to be asked on orders of the day. Whether or not I agree with Mr. Speaker's ruling does not matter. The ruling was made and we have to accept it. However, we are now in committee on a bill to appropriate money, and surely the question is now in order.
Now, further to my suggestion that the government is playing with us in a manner that is quite unfair, I point out that there are 10 or 11 members of the cabinet in the house right now. There were more of them here a few minutes ago. To suggest that there is no member of the cabinet who knows whether or not the member for Red Deer was given some kind of special credential, whether there was an order in council, is ridiculous. If the minister is not able to say that there was no order in council and that there is to be no payment of expenses, then he had better find out and let us know right away.
Whether or not it was a serious and unusual thing, Mr. Chairman, to send a private member off in this way I think is now overshadowed by the manner in which the government is treating the members of this

house. I think we are entitled to a cleareut answer on this right now.


George James McIlraith: We should make something very clear. A charge by the hon. member that the government is treating the house badly because of the answer I have made surely does not lie in his mouth. He has been here long enough to be familiar with the practice on these appropriation bills. I would remind him of my answers, because he apparently did not listen to them or perhaps, because of the noise, he was not able to hear them. I told him that I had a great deal to do with orders in council, or most of them, and that I had no recollection of any order in council on this matter.
I coupled with this the undertaking to find out and provide information as to whether or not there was one, and I do respectfully suggest it probably is not good practice for the committee to start insisting that every department have its staff here to answer all the detailed questions that may be asked. We should recognize that this is the committee stage of a financial bill. Although it may be technically within the rules to ask for this information, I do not think we should hold up the bill. I have already given an undertaking to call the estimates of the department, at which time the numerous questions that have been asked on this subject can be asked and answered, because the committee is entitled to have the answers.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the explanations of the President of the Privy Council to the effect that the terms used by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) may not be accurate and that we must accept his word, his statement as he made it. However, a fact remains-I see that the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) is back in his seat, he will certainly inform us about the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Thompson).
We appreciate the fact that the hon. member for Red Deer has a wide knowledge of matters respecting Africa, but we want to know whether or not the government has sent him on a mission, or whether he cooperates in any way with the government or whether the government makes a contribution to the trip of the hon. member for Red Deer in Africa. In my opinion, we are entitled to know.
We are now considering supply authorizing certain expenditures. Whether or not there 20220-617i
Appropriation Bill
were orders in council, there is certainly a part of that money which will go to pay the travelling expenses of the hon. member. When a minister refuses to answer that question, that almost implies that, in fact, the government did send the hon. member for Red Deer to Africa. We want an answer to that question, we want to be informed.
If it is necessary to make speeches during the whole afternoon to give the minister an opportunity to inquire about the facts, we will do so and we will know what we want to know.


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Chairman, I would not have left the chamber earlier if it were not for the fact that in Ottawa at present we have the distinguished Belgian foreign minister who came here to carry on certain conversations. He is leaving the city at 4.50 p.m. and that is why I left the chamber at 3.20. I would have answered the question but for the fact that His Honour the Speaker said the question was not in order.
The hon. member for Red Deer has gone to Africa, at the request of the government, to perform an important assignment in an area with which he is more familiar than perhaps any other living Canadian because of the fact that he lived in Africa for many years, particularly serving in Ethiopia for almost 18 years. That is why we asked him to undertake a mission, and he has done so willingly at the request of the government of Canada.


David Réal Caouette: Could the minister tell us whether the hon. member for Red Deer has now been admitted in the ranks of the Liberal or government party?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: I am not concerned with political questions but in this matter, I know that the hon. member is familiar with the great problems concerning Canada and Africa.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Chairman, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Could the minister tell us whether the Department of External Affairs is now considering appointing the hon. member for Red Deer as ambassador or to some other office in the near future?


David Réal Caouette: In Africa?


Gilles Grégoire: Could the minister give us an answer?

Appropriation Bill


David Réal Caouette: Is the matter under consideration?


Gilles Grégoire: Is this contemplated?


Paul Joseph James Martin: If something concerned me in the riding of Lapointe, I might, in a limited context, ask the hon. member to represent me. That is what we did with respect to the hon. member for Red Deer, in Africa.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, now that the Secretary of State for External Affairs has answered part of the question perhaps he could give us the rest of the information that was asked a moment ago. As a matter of fact a great deal of time could have been saved if this question had been answered earlier.


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: But don't you think we should observe what the Speaker decides?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Now that the Secretary of State for External Affairs has declared that a private member of the house has been asked to do something on behalf of the government, will he say whether the travelling expenses of this private member are being paid by the government and, if so, was there an order in council authorizing the payment of these expenses?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: I do not believe there was an order in council.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then how are the expenses being paid?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: The hon. gentleman will have to indicate what his expenses were, and they will be examined and the proper procedure will be observed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is there an understanding that the expenses will be paid?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex Easl: It would be very unfair to ask an hon. gentleman to undertake such a responsibility and pay the expenses himself.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I have just one other word to say. I suggest that the President of the Privy Council was quite out of turn in saying it did not lie in my mouth to ask the kind of questions I asked. As he must have known the facts he should have admitted them, instead of playing around with words.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, as Hansard wih indicate, that is not the charge I made. I stated that it did not lie in the hon. member's mouth to make the charge against me

that he had made, and it was to that I objected.


Mr. Nesbili:: I know the Secretary of State for External Affairs is in a hurry so I will make my question brief. In view of the fact that a private member, the leader of a group of other members, has been assigned to a mission by the government-perhaps a very important mission as the Secretary of State for External Affairs has told us-does this represent a complete change in the policy of this and previous governments, going back to 1945 when members of all parties formed the original Canadian delegation to the United Nations at San Francisco? It was later agreed among all parties, as I understand it, that this policy would be discontinued so far as the United Nations was concerned, and that other parties would send parliamentary observers so that they would not have to take responsibility for the government's actions. Now we have a private member of the house, belonging to another party, acting on behalf of the government. Does this mean that the policy established with respect to foreign affairs some years ago has been changed?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that the conclusions which my hon. friend is suggesting in his question are necessarily accurate. In 1945, as my hon. friend mentions, it is true that the United Nations delegation was made up of delegates who represented all the political parties in the house. The then leader of the opposition, Mr. Bracken, leader of the Progressive Conservative party, was one of the delegates; but after that assembly meeting, in which he had rendered valuable service to Canada, he took the view that thereafter he would not want to go as a delegate but would be content to have representatives of his party attend in an observer capacity.
He took that position because he felt that having participated as a delegate he did not want in any way to be excluded from subsequent examination of government policy at the conference which he attended. That was not the position taken by the government of the day, nor is it necessarily the position I would take in similar circumstances. I have endeavoured to give as objective a character to foreign policy as can possibly be done.
In this particular situation there was a good functional reason for picking a man who knows Africa, and I have no excuse for doing that. If I thought my hon. friend could serve Canada in a particular capacity in a

special way at the United Nations I would not hesitate to ask him to do so, and I know he would not refuse to undertake the responsibility.
The responsibility undertaken by the hon. member for Red Deer would in no way preclude him from criticizing government policy generally. As the hon. member for Oxford knows, there is no more dangerous situation now developing in the world than that in certain sections of Africa. Need I say any more?


Malcolm MacInnis: Was this arrangement to send the hon. member for Red Deer to Africa made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs himself?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend who has not shared the heavy responsibilities of government perhaps does not realize these are matters one has to share with one's colleagues as a whole.


Malcolm MacInnis: It is very apparent to all of us that the cabinet does not know where it is going, but to have an admission from the Secretary of State for External Affairs is something else. Thirteen of his cabinet colleagues failed to answer that question and maintained they did not have the answer.


Mr. Benidickson:: That is nonsense.


Malcolm MacInnis: Maybe we should apologize for waking up the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. If we keep up the noise we may keep him awake. What I want to know from the minister for external affairs is this-maybe he or his colleagues will be able to answer this question: Who made the arrangements to send the hon. member for Red Deer to Africa, and is there no one qualified on African affairs within his own department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I made the arrangements. I am not sorry for having done so. They were in the national interest.


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: Well, why did you try to hide it?


Mr.   Marlin@Essex East: The hon. member, who is a fair member, asks "why did you try to hide it?"


An hon. Member:: None of those ministers answered.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Let us not get
excited.
Appropriation Bill


Herman Maxwell Batten: The Chair is having some difficulty in listening to more than one member at the same time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I might say a word for a moment. The Secretary of State for External Affairs has arranged to meet the foreign minister of Belgium who has come here to see him this afternoon, and the foreign minister has to leave at 4.30. I may not know everything that goes on in the cabinet but I do happen to know this is a most important discussion having to do with NATO and I wonder whether it could be agreed that the minister could return to the house after Mr. Spaak has left in order to deal with any points concerning this particular matter which have not yet been dealt with. This would enable us to extend a common courtesy to Mr. Spaak while he is here.


Malcolm MacInnis: When I put this question to the minister for external affairs, when I asked him whether the arrangements had been made by himself along with the member for Red Deer or not, he informed the house that because of the rule as to cabinet responsibility, this must be something which was shared. Mr. Chairman, 13 members of the cabinet have been in this house. They were apparently concerned with this. Then the minister rises to tell us he made the arrangements.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: On a question of privilege, perhaps I could just make this point. As the Secretary of State for External Affairs remarked, the hon. member has perhaps not had too much cabinet experience.


An hon. Member:: Nor have you.


Robert Muir: You have so much to learn.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I am very glad to hear all those aspirants giving me advice. I am at least reasonable enough to admit that I have something to learn. The question was asked of me as to what the arrangements were. I think members would appreciate that a more orderly way of doing business is to allow the Secretary of State for External Affairs to formulate precise answers to the questions for which he is responsible, rather than to have one or other of his colleagues attempting to give answers off the cuff. This was the purpose of my reply to the hon. member for Villeneuve. I said I would take the question as notice and provide an answer by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. This does not mean that the Secretary of State

Appropriation Bill
tor External Affairs alone knows what is going on. It is an attempt on the part of the government to see that business is conducted in an orderly and reasonable fashion.


George James McIlraith: I have just been advised that there is no order in council to pay the expenses of the hon. member for Red Deer.


Mr. Fisher:: You would be surprised, Mr. Chairman, how I move from this topic to the controversial film "Mr. Pearson", but it has real relevance in this particular case. It may be even more germane than that. Many people will be surprised to discover that the hon. member for Red Deer is such an authority on African affairs. Yet there is no doubt that if the Pearson film had been shown, as it should have been, we would have known this. We got an insight from that film of the relationship of the hon. member for Red Deer with the Emperor of Ethiopia, and how he plays a fundamental part in the reception ceremonies of the day. At the same time we discover that the Prime Minister believes that this is the last emperor in the world, apparently forgetting about the Emperor of Japan. It does give you a bit of a feeling that the member for Red Deer is an African authority and the Prime Minister is not. Apparently the hon. member for Red Deer is a person of some stature in Africa, aside from whatever stature he may have here in relation to the Liberal party. I should like to suggest to ministers that they get together and review again that film in which they took such an interest before. If they would release it to the country it would provide an explanation of what may seem on the surface to be a baffling move.
I know all of us were aware that the Minister without Portfolio was touring the world as a roving ambassador throughout this period, and we admire the wisdom of the government for despatching him on this task. Some of us thought it would be wise if they kept him on such travels a great deal of the time. Now, just because of the ideas we have about the travels of the Minister without Portfolio, what are we to think about the member for Red Deer being absent from his place in the house at such an important time, when there are so many ideas in people's minds about co-operation or the lack of cooperation in this house It seems to me I have made a good case for the Pearson film being shown to the Canadian people, so that they can see the hon. member for Red Deer, the leader of the Social Credit party, in his true light as an expert on Africa and well worth

sending there by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Some of us have a suspicion -and perhaps we should not noise suspicions abroad unless we can prove them-that one of the main figures in seeing that the Pearson film was not shown was the Secretary of State for External Affairs who, we do know, saw the famous film. I think that in a sense he has been caught in his own trap here. He sent the hon. member for Red Deer away on a great mission to Africa. In a sense he himself defeated his purpose beforehand in getting recognition for this by acting in such a way that the film "Mr. Pearson" has not seen the light of day.
I shall say no more about this. I know there are a lot of men, wise in their own opinions, sitting over there and a word to the wise is enough.


Clifford Silas Smallwood: I opened this subject today on the quiet basis of question and answer. The answer we have now is that the hon. member was sent over to Africa on behalf of the government. All I am wondering now is whether this open acceptance of the hon. member into a political party was just a plum for the support he has given. I will let it go at that.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think the government has been treating the committee in very cavalier fashion today on this particular item. We recognize that the Secretary of State for External Affairs is temporarily engaged with one of the ambassadors-


An hon. Member:: The foreign minister.


Gordon Minto Churchill: But I am not content with the answers he gave to the questions which were put to him on this particular matter. It has been suggested by the Minister of Transport that the hon. gentleman might return later on today and clear up his answers on some of these points. I want to know when he is going to return and I suggest it might be advisable to stand this appropriation bill for the time being and go on with the estimates of Atomic Energy Limited and the national research council, thus making it possible for the Secretary of State for External Affairs to come back and give us a complete answer to the questions which were put to members of the government prior to his entry into the chamber. I would ask the leader of the house what the proposal is.


George James McIlraith: I think the hon. gentleman has made a proper suggestion-a very good one-and I am quite willing to undertake to

have the estimates of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, brought in-


John Whitney Pickersgill: As soon as he is available.


George James McIlraith: As soon as he is available after his present interview with the foreign minister of Belgium. We could interrupt the estimates of the Minister of Industry at that point in order that the hon. member might have all the information he wishes with regard to this particular item.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Just so that we may be clear, the Secretary of State for External Affairs will return to the house this afternoon. When he does so, the chairman will call an appropriate item in the estimates of the Department of External Affairs so that we can found our discussion on it. That will be satisfactory.


Mr. Valade:: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a few words because of the implications of this matter, which I think are very important to a great many members of this house. This is not agreeing with the suggestion made by the President of the Privy Council. I think it should be made known in this house what disposition the government intends to make with regard to future arrangements of this sort. As hon. members know-and the ministers are aware of this-members of this house are invited from time to time to participate, in their capacity as members of parliament, in meetings of international organizations or other conferences throughout the world, and sometimes members of the government and members of the opposition parties have to refuse these invitations. The invitations are made according to the status of members of parliament. If the government acknowledges that there is a precedent in the case of the hon. member for Red Deer, it becomes prejudicial to other members of this house who may be invited to participate-


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether I could interrupt the hon. member for a moment. That is precisely the sort of thing we propose to bring the Secretary of State for External Affairs back to the house to answer. I wonder whether the hon. member would not agree that the question could be more directly put to that minister when we call his estimates later in the afternoon.


Georges-J. Valade: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to quarrel with the minister, but my point is quite apart from the case involving the hon. member for Red Deer. I think the question raised was, what commitments has the
Appropriation Bill
Secretary of State for External Affairs made, as far as the hon. member for Red Deer is concerned, and what special mission is he involved in on behalf of the government? However, Mr. Chairman, I am not talking about this; I am talking about the precedent we are going to create in recognizing an individual member of an opposition party and giving him authority to represent the government. If we do this as a general principle; if we recognize the right of a member to go abroad in order to participate in conferences or other kinds of international meetings, the principle we are recognizing here in regard to one hon. member should also be recognized in regard to any other member of this house in the future. This is my point, and it is very important. I do not think the Secretary of State for External Affairs can make a decision on his own on this matter; I think it is a matter of government policy to be determined right now.
This does not involve the specific case of the hon. member for Red Deer; it involves the general principle or general policy being established by the precedent we are now creating in regard to the hon. member for Red Deer. I am interested to know what will happen in the future, because in the past I have been invited to participate in international conferences and felt I could not accept because I could not represent the government; but I assumed that I was invited because of my capacity as a member of parliament. If this is right, we have to know ahead of time whether the government is now defining a new kind of approach or policy in respect of this matter. I think it would be fair, personally, if the government were to recognize a member of parliament who is invited to participate in any kind of international meeting or conference. I believe it would be a good thing if the government were to recognize the right of a member of parliament to participate in such meetings in his capacity as a member of parliament.


Mr. Byrne:: Wasn't the hon. member in the Place Pigalle one trip?


Georges-J. Valade: I did not hear the hon. member, Mr. Chairman. I wonder whether he would be good enough to stand up and ask his question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may be permitted to interrupt the hon. member to say that I do not think my hon. friend the President of the Privy Council had any thought of restricting the reply of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to the

Appropriation Bill
question of the hon. member for Red Deer. I think the question the hon. member for St. Mary is raising is a perfectly proper one, and when the Secretary of State for External Affairs comes back I think the hon. member should state his question so that the Secretary of State for External Affairs, who is the minister responsible, may answer. All this is being said now and it will have to be said over again. If the hon. member would put his question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs later, it will avoid repetition. I hope this is agreeable to the hon. member. We are not seeking in any way to restrict, within the limits of the time available today -and we could go on tomorrow also-the Secretary of State for External Affairs being subjected to any questions that the chairman considers proper with respect to this matter. Is this agreeable to the hon. member?


Georges-J. Valade: This is perfectly agreeable to me, Mr. Chairman. I raised the question because I did not want the government to forget that we should discuss this whole question and not just decide one single issue, namely that of the hon. member for Red Deer. I would like to have a general statement from the government as to the policy in this regard.


Mr. Clancy:: Mr. Chairman, it took us 37 minutes to get a "yes or no" from the government as to whether they paid the expenses in this regard, and the question should have been answered in 30 seconds. I will ask any minister here: Has the hon. member for Red Deer the power to commit the Canadian government to any kind of agreement?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I think I will answer that question; I am the senior minister in the house. I can say unequivocally that he has no power to commit the government. I do not think even a minister, by himself, would have power to commit the government; the government has to consider these matters. But certainly the hon. member for Red Deer has no power at all.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 6 inclusive agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Schedules agreed to.
Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall clause 1 carry?
Clause 1 agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported and read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Batten in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Emergency measures organization-
20. Administration and operation, $2,600,000.
Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, if I remember correctly, I adjourned the debate when these estimates were last being considered by the committee, following the minister's brief statement. I was particularly concerned with the points that had been raised in the report of the special committee on defence with regard to an annual exercise and the suggestion that there should be a national exercise with all survival defence bodies participating. I believe the last such exercise was held in the fall of 1961. Three years have now elapsed, the personnel have changed, and I am sure that some of the practices, some of the good work that had been developed, and the thinking, may have fallen a bit by the wayside. People get out and talk with their opposite numbers. I think this is one of those things which we must study by periodic exercise, rather than just use them in the event of an emergency. Perhaps the minister or his officials could give us an assessment of the efficacy of these exercises.
What use is being made of the training college at Arnprior for the training of municipal officials, doctors and various other persons concerned with survival training? The course offered by that college has been deemed to be very effective. What is the government's intention in respect of this course?
What is the degree of co-operation being received by the authority from the various provinces in regard to these training courses? In 1959, 1960 and 1961 some of the provinces brought attention to themselves by their refusal to co-operate, or if not by refusing, by merely offering a token participation. I am interested to know whether there has been any change in this attitude. Some provinces are doing very excellent work in this regard, but unfortunately the standard is not uniform across Canada. Certain changes were made in fiscal grants to provinces in order to encourage them to participate, but it seems to me that some provincial administrations could show an ostrich how to bury its head in the sand when it comes to civil defence training and survival operations. I cannot imagine what some of these senior provincial officers have been thinking in this regard. Certainly municipalities are not going to take the lead, but must be encouraged, and I am

wondering what the government's official policy is in respect of actively encouraging the provinces and municipalities to hold various training exercises.
Mr. Chairman, we will know what further questions should be asked of the minister after he has made his reply.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, if there are no other questions, perhaps I might reply briefly to the questions raised mainly by the hon. member for Edmonton West.
In respect of the desirability of national emergency measures exercises, it is of course understood that there has not been such an exercise on a national scale for a number of years. One was projected for a couple of years ago but in fact was not carried out. Those who were responsible for the preparation of that projected exercise did in fact derive a great deal of benefit from the preparation of it, and the emergency measures organization benefited from a review of its activities in this regard. Obviously that value is something less than the value to be derived from a full scale national exercise, but such an exercise would be much more expensive.
It is the view at this time of the emergency measures organization that rather than to attempt another national exercise at this juncture it would be better-this is what we are indeed planning to do-to have a cycle of exercises, as is normal in military training, starting at the municipal level, followed by the provincial level and finally followed by a full scale exercise at the federal level, involving all levels. This is the plan under which we are now operating.
In respect of the civil defence college, I should like to advise the hon. member that the average intake now is approximately 80 students per course. The program includes a basic orientation course for federal employees, specialists courses for departments such as the Department of National Health and Welfare and the Department of Agriculture. It also includes emergency supply planning, technical courses on radiation monitoring and fallout protection, national survival organization and planning, and an operations course for provincial and municipal civil defence workers who have previously received their basic training through a local civil defence training course.
In 1963 the college trained 2,866 planners and 1,453 planners so far in this current year, making a cumulative total to date of more than 33,700. It is evident that the college facilities are normally used to maximum capacity providing courses in both the French and 20220-618
Supply-Defence Production
English languages. Recently the government approved the construction of a new single college structure to replace the complex of temporary buildings which we have found are increasingly expensive both to maintain and operate. This new building will not only improve the facilities for training, but will reduce the operating and maintenance costs of the college, it is hoped, by the sum of some $100,000 per annum.
I agree with the suggestion by the hon. member for Edmonton West that the civil defence training college at Amprior does fulfil an important role in civil defence training and emergency measures planning. In regard to the co-operation from the provinces, I am sure the hon. member will agree that it would be highly inappropriate for me to endeavour to make a comparison between the performances of each province. I can say, however, that we are pleased with the co-operation being received at the present time from all the provinces, and are happy to take account of the fact that the degree of participation in emergency measure planning and training is increasing from year to year. I do not know that one can expect a millennium, but one can hope, as long as there is continuing improvement. I think we should take comfort in that fact.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: I have one or two further points I should like to make, Mr. Chairman. During the original planning for the national survival program the post of a federal regional commissioner was discussed. During two exercises the commissioners were appointed on an ad hoc basis and were in fact either cabinet ministers or members of parliament representing the government. As I said, these individuals occupied the positions on a fill-in basis. These two exercises were very interesting and educational. At the planning stage consideration was given to the appointment of a permanent federal regional commissioner for a certain period of time. I have heard nothing more of this projected appointment. Perhaps the minister could indicate what the government's intentions are in this regard.
The next matter with which I wish to deal is one to which reference was made in the report of the defence committee, involving the testing of the siren system. Apparently some communities test their sirens on a regular basis and people have become quite familiar with them. I am sure that other communities have not tested their sirens in the past two years. It would be very inter-

Supply-Defence Production esting to know whether they function at all at this stage, or whether a comic situation would develop such as developed here in Ottawa several weeks ago when because of technical difficulties they began to sound. At that time nobody could be reached to turn them off and for a considerable period of time nobody could be reached to find out what was going on. This is the sort of thing that should not occur again and no doubt appropriate steps have been taken. Perhaps the minister could tell us about them.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: In respect of the appointment of federal representatives on a permanent basis at the regional level, the hon. member is aware that at the time of the last exercise permanent arrangements had not been made. They have not yet been made, and indeed it is difficult to see, because of the changing nature of the federal representation, how one could evolve a permanent system which would always be workable. Consideration is continuing to be given by the emergency measures organization and consultations are taking place with the provinces to see whether some rather more continuous arrangement can be made for federal representation at the regional level than has been the case in the past. I must confess we have not yet found the solution.
In relation to the testing of sirens the house will be aware that the erection and maintenance, including the testing of sirens, has been put into the hands of the Department of National Defence. The emergency measures organization does recognize that tests as to operability must be carried out in order that one can be satisfied that the sirens will work when required. There is the further obvious advantage in periodic testing that the populations for whom the sirens are intended to be useful will become familiar with the conditions under which they are hearable, if I may use that term, and the conditions under which they are not hearable. In that regard it has been suggested that the practice observed in some municipalities of a periodic turning on of the sirens might be followed throughout the country so that, first, the people will acquire some degree of familiarity with these things and, second, it will be possible for the military authorities charged with their maintenance and reliability to satisfy themselves that in fact they do work. This is now under review by the Department of National Defence and I hope we will have a policy in this respect in the not too distant future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]

Atomic energy control board-
1. Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $159,000.
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, this is an item which very frequently passes the house without much notice. I think this is rather unfortunate although I do not propose taking much time to discuss it today. The atomic energy control board, as I am sure the minister will confirm, performs a very important function in providing control over all the atomic energy activities that are going on in this country, so that the people are protected from the danger that can occur if something goes wrong with atomic energy research stations. Although the house frequently lets the atomic energy control board estimates go through without much consideration, I think it is important for us to recognize what the board does. It has a very important function to perform and over the years we have been singularly fortunate in Canada that we have not been unduly alarmed at any time or subjected to any danger from radioactive materials from any of our own establishments.
This good situation results from an absolutely first class piece of work on the part of the atomic energy control board. It has been chaired by various people, all of whom have carried out their duties efficiently. I thought I would draw the attention of the house to what my own experience was in working with the atomic energy control board and recommend commendation for the board for the work it is doing for the people of Canada. That is all I want to say on item 1, but perhaps the minister would like to add something to these few brief remarks. I have some questions on the next item.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, I am most appreciative of the kind remarks of the hon. member commending the work of the atomic energy control board. Needless to say, in this important field involving the regulation of the peaceful uses of atomic energy in Canada we have been fortunate in the high purpose, assiduity and perspicacity of the members of the atomic energy control board.
During the past year the board has considered applications for and issued some 1,117 licences covering the use of radioisotopes in Canada. It has issued some 172 permits covering dealings in other atomic energy materials and some 62 permits covering operations with fissile material. As the hon. gentleman has just pointed out, the board is responsible for ensuring that within this country all the applications of nuclear energy are conducted in a manner which will cause a minimum of
97B1

danger and risk to the general public. I would agree with him that we have been lucky to date and, because of the soundness of the regulations and the degree of wisdom with which they are applied, I hope we will continue to have the same good fortune in the future.


Mr. Bigg:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask two short questions of the minister. I read in a trade journal recently that there is some danger that the whole western world will be short of uranium oxide and other fissionable substances throughout the 1970's. I was wondering whether the commission might make a survey of the situation and advise other departments of the government whether in fact Canada is facing a shortage so that we might encourage the development of the industry which was doing very well a few years ago. We heard a lot about the lack of sales of fissionable material to the United States, and if this situation can be improved it will be a tremendous source of income for Canada.
My second question is closely related. Should we not at this time make a proper survey of our mineral resources throughout Canada, even in our national parks? If commercial ventures are not going to be allowed in the national parks, at least independent government teams could look for possible sources of uranium oxide in the parks so that if a shortage does develop in the 1970's we will not lack fissionable materials for our projects at Chalk River and other such places.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, the supply of uranium oxide in Canada has been in the past primarily the responsibility of Eldorado Mining and Refining. As the committee will be aware, this organization reports to parliament through the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Consequently I should refrain from commenting on the observations of the hon. gentleman, but I will be glad to bring them to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who I think will in all probability, if I could express a personal view, be in agreement with the suggestion made by the hon. member.
In so far as a survey of our mining resources generally is concerned, I will be glad to draw this to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
5. Grants for researches and investigations with respect to atomic energy, $1,250,000.
Gordon Minto Churchill: On this vote, Mr. Chairman, I should like to hear from the minister with 20220-618J
Supply-Defence Production regard to grants for research and investigation by atomic energy. I recall the importance of this subject as it was discussed in years gone by when I had some responsibility in this area. I was never of the opinion that we were giving enough, granting enough money, for this important research. However, there are limitations placed on some ministers who want to spend money by the Minister of Finance, who does not. I presume my successor in this field may have had the same experience as I did. Could he tell us just how this money is being distributed and where the research is being done?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, knowing the responsibility and great interest of the hon. member in the past in this subject, I am glad to say that I share his views that these grants in aid of research are, from the point of view of the development of the national economy, important. I fully share his view in this regard, and he will be glad to note an increase of some 30 per cent in the money devoted to this purpose between 1963-64 and the current year under discussion, 1964-65. There has been an increase in this appropriation from one year to the next and I think one can look forward to some modest increase in the years ahead.
These grants for research have been designed to assist Canadian research workers to purchase and operate major items of atomic energy equipment so that they may carry out fundamental atomic energy research and train the scientists and engineers needed for future atomic energy operation in Canada. At the present time, atomic energy projects are being conducted at nine universities, namely British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, McMaster, Queen's, Montreal, McGill and Laval. These universities are being assisted in this way.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10. Current operation and maintenance, including expendable research equipment, $34,861,400.
Gordon Minto Churchill: We are now on votes 10 and 15, Mr. Chairman, dealing with the operations of Atomic Energy of Canada. We are moving rather hurriedly. Several years ago I had the experience of this vote passing through the committee before the president of the corporation arrived in the gallery. I do not believe we need to go quite that fast today. I think the minister might favour us with a statement with regard to the activities of Atomic Energy of Canada, the operations and developments that are going on. His

Supply-Defence Production statement does not have to include all the items that appear in the annual report, but could be comprehensive enough to cover the field. Perhaps he may summarize the activities for the record and for the general information of hon. members. Then, we may ask him some specific questions on some of the details.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Order; may I ask the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre if his remarks are directed to vote No. 10 or vote No. 15?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I would think, Mr. Chairman, that 10 and 15 might be combined for the purposes of our discussion, and when this is over we might pass the two of them.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: The hon. member will recall when last I spoke of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, I did give an extensive review of the progress up to that time of the operations of the company. Perhaps I might try to bring the committee up to date briefly.
The heavy water moderated and cooled natural uranium fueled reactor system continues to dominate the Canadian nuclear scene. The successful operation of Canada's first nuclear power station, the 20,000 kilowatt nuclear power demonstration unit, coupled with the enthusiasm for the Canadian nuclear power system shown in many quarters internationally, fully vindicates those who first urged its development.
Canada's first full scale nuclear power station of 200,000 kilowatt output with its single reactor, generally known as CANDU, now being built by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited with the co-operati( n of the HydroElectric Power Commission of Ontario at Douglas Point, is expected to be completed in time for commercial operation in 1965 and at a cost that is not expected to exceed the budget figure of some $81.5 million. The preliminary design by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited of the nuclear system and by Ontario hydro of the conventional system of a one million kilowatt nuclear generating station employing two reactors has been completed and, as the committee is well aware, agreement has been reached between the government of Canada, the government of Ontario and Ontario hydro concerning the arrangements that will prevail in respect of the construction of such a station. I might emphasize that the decision to adopt this particular design and to employ Atomic Energy of Canada Limited as the designer has been made by Ontario hydro and it is Ontario

hydro not Atomic Energy of Canada Limited that will build this plant. In other words, Ontario hydro is using its normal procurement methods for this plant, rather than the special arrangements worked out for Douglas Point.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited has always enjoyed a close relationship with Canadian industry. In response to an invitation by atomic energy, individual companies are seconding staff to atomic energy research and design locations to gain first hand knowledge and experience of the Canadian nuclear power system. Now that decision has been taken to proceed with the proposed new Ontario hydro station, it is expected that this type of liaison between atomic energy and industry will be accelerated. This procedure has the advantage of releasing atomic energy facilities for new and diversified projects, while giving industry an opportunity of being more closely integrated with the Canadian program.
The design of the 200,000 kilowatt nuclear generating station for India is proceeding at full speed and in full co-operation with atomic energy's power product group acting as nuclear consultants for the Indian department of atomic energy. Montreal Engineering Company Limited has signed a contract with the department of atomic energy of India for the design of the conventional part of the station and will act as consultant to that department in the construction of the station.
Negotiations are at present under way between Canadian General Electric Company Limited and the Pakistan atomic energy commission for the sale of a 132 megawatt nuclear power station of Canadian design to be located at Karachi. Elsewhere on the international scene it is safe to say that interest in the Canadian system is keen; so also is competition from other industrialized nations. But I am sure that an aggressive Canadian industry employing a very sharp pencil, and encouraged by A.E.C.L., should be able to look to markets abroad in the nuclear power field in the years immediately ahead.
Research, of course, is the lifeblood of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. The Chalk River nuclear laboratories research team, a group with a world wide reputation for original work, continues to employ the excellent facilities located at Chalk River to their limit. While, of necessity, effort must be concentrated on research and development incidental to all aspects of the heavy water moderated and cooled reactor system in order to back up commitments made, A.E.C.L. is making the preliminary studies necessary to

the launching of a program for the development of a heavy water moderated, boiling light water cooled, natural uranium reactor system.
Construction of the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment in Manitoba is continuing on schedule. Four major buildings are now in use and some useful research work is at present under way.
Hon. members will be interested to learn that A.E.C.L. has now firm requirements for heavy water that exceed the 1,000 tons of production in the first five years of the operation of the plant in Nova Scotia being built by Deuterium of Canada Limited. A.E.C.L. has, on behalf of the government of Canada, undertaken to guarantee the sale of the first five years of production from this plant at the rate of 200 tons per year, starting July 1966.
The requirements of the Douglas Point generating station borrowed from the United States atomic energy commission, plus the requirements of the million kilowatt station recently announced for Ontario hydro, total about 1,150 tons. There are additional smaller amounts needed during this five year period to meet the Chalk River and Whiteshell research reactor requirements, which total about 35 tons. There is also a need for 150 tons for the 132 megawatt nuclear plant for Pakistan, if that project proceeds, and there are several other potential requirements that could total some hundreds of tons in the same period.
A.E.C.L. and other users will be exploring the possibility of further production in Canada, as it is now obvious that 200 tons per year will not meet Canadian requirements, and foreign sales appear to be considerable. If, during the 1970's, the heavy water moderated power reactors are developed to use boiling light water or light water steam for the coolant, the total requirements of heavy water for each plant will be reduced by about one fifth. However, at that time the rate of installation of these plants should be such that there will be an assured market for increased production, assuming of course that the price is competitive with other sources of supply.
Hon. members are familiar with the success that has been achieved by A.E.C.L.'s commercial products division in Ottawa. The products manufactured by this group find their way to purchasers in every comer of the globe. So great has been the increase in the volume of sales that A.E.C.L., in order to keep pace with the orders, has decided to
Supply-Defence Production construct a new building on the outskirts of this city.
I think this suffices to give a brief summary of progress to date of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, and I would recommend that these estimates be passed by the committee.


Michael Starr: I am not going into the intricacies of atomic energy because I know nothing about them, but on at least two or three occasions I asked the minister whether a decision has been reached by the atomic energy commission on the application of Ontario hydro for a definite site for the location of its nuclear power plant, more particularly in Fairport in Ontario county. Since he has already admitted that the application was received on September 8, and since two months have passed since then, I would like to know whether this site has been approved. If not, when does the minister think the commission might be able to give approval in order to expedite the construction of the plant?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I can hardly resist the temptation to point out to the hon. member that we have passed items 1 and 5. Consequently I cannot avail myself of the advice of Dr. Lawrence, who was here a few moments ago. However, I did discuss this point with him. It is correct that an application has been made by Ontario hydro for a permit to construct a plant in Fairport, Ontario but the application, as in very complex projects of this sort, is unlikely to be complete in itself and further details are expected to be sought.
In fact further details have been sought and, in the nature of things, it is likely that when the second set of information has been obtained the scientists will ask for more. This is quite normal. It is expected by Ontario hydro and by the atomic energy control board. However, I can assure the hon. member that I understand the time being consumed in examining the facts in relation to this particular site will in no way hold back the timetable which Ontario hydro has for the construction of the station. Indeed, were atomic energy control board to grant a permit tomorrow, this would not advance the construction of the building by one day.


Michael Starr: I must apologize to the minister for raising the matter under the wrong item. Nevertheless great interest has been created in that area and the local people would like to know whether the site has been approved.

Supply-Defence Production Once we know the site has been approved that will ease the minds of a lot of people.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Well, if I may suggest so, there is no such thing as an appropriate site and an inappropriate site. It all depends on what you are going to do at any given site. What might be right and proper to do in a certain way on the shores of Hudson bay would be quite wrong to do downtown in Toronto, particularly in the nuclear field. It is not so much a question of approving the site as examining what Ontario hydro proposes to do, and how it proposes to do it in Fairport. I think I can say, without revealing anything I should not, that in relation to the initial proposals of Ontario hydro for the operation of this station the atomic energy control board made some counter-suggestions as to how it should be done. It is the interplay of suggestion and counter suggestion, looking toward the safety of the general public, which takes the time; it is not simply a case of saying yes or no to a site, but it is, rather, the making of decisions with regard to the technical aspects of what is to be done at a particular site.


Mr. Slogan:: I think it is only appropriate for me to have a few words to say when the estimates of Atomic Energy of Canada are being considered, particularly since one of the research establishments is located within my riding. I must say the people of Springfield are proud of this research centre which is located there. It has done a great deal to stimulate this part of the country. I think it is a most beautiful site for a most worthwhile project.
The former government set up a special committee of the House of Commons a few years ago to deal with research, and representatives of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Eldorado, Eldorado Aviation and the national research council appeared before it. At that time some of the controversy surrounding the type of reactor which Canada should be producing was brought into the open. I think a good deal of healthy discussion came out of that committee and I believe that to a large extent the stand taken by Atomic Energy of Canada has been vindicated and that the type of reactor which Canada is producing is practical and saleable. There are a number of questions I should like to address to the minister. Perhaps he could take note of them while I am speaking and provide me with some answers.
First, I wonder whether he could explain to me the manner in which housing is


financed at Whiteshell and how those houses are taken over by the residents. Are they rented, or are they bought? How much money is Atomic Energy putting into the townsite? Is Central Mortgage and Housing underwriting this expenditure?
The minister mentioned that Atomic Energy of Canada is considering the production of a different type of reactor, one which would be cooled by hot water or steam. He told the committee this would reduce the cost of some of our reactors and the amount of heavy water which would be required. There has been talk, also, of an organically cooled reactor. I should like the minister to tell us what is meant by an organically cooled reactor as well as by a hot water cooled reactor, and whether the use of such coolants would reduce the cost of the reactor. I should also like to know the effect of these developments upon the use of heavy water.
In the United States at the present time there is a great deal of talk about using nuclear reactors for the desalinization of ocean water. This is a pet project of President Johnson and, indeed, it will be brought up at the forthcoming meeting of NATO parliamentarians. As one of the leaders in the field of nuclear research, Canada should I believe be in a position to play an active part in the development of reactors which could be used for desalinization. I notice that invitations have gone out to 114 nations to attend an international symposium or saline water conversion to be held in October, 1965, and I am sure that Atomic Energy Limited must have some plan about attending this conference. Perhaps the minister could outline to us the action he intends to take in this regard. I notice also that at the present time a Montreal company has submitted a proposal for an 80 megawatt plant with a desalinization capacity of 14,000 cubic meters per day. I think this would be a combined power station and desalinization plant.
I mention this because it seems to me that the interest in desalinization among various nations of the world where there is a shortage of fresh water is such that it might provide a definite market for nuclear reactors produced in Canada. There is no doubt that United States companies will be bidding in this field and I should like to be assured that Atomic Energy of Canada is not dragging its heels in this regard but, rather, doing work which would put it in a position to tender for the supply of reactors to be used for desalinization. I realize that desaliniza-

tion is not of primary importance to Canada, because we are fortunate in having an ample supply of fresh water. But because of the limited market for these reactors and because the taxpayers of Canada are making such large amounts available for research to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, we should not miss any opportunity to capitalize on overseas markets. Perhaps the minister could give us an answer in this regard.
I just want to say that relations between the town and Atomic Energy Limited are most cordial. The people in this town are somewhat above the average. I understand that the I.Q. of school children at Deep River is considerably above the average. I know there were some problems of administration at Deep River in the early days and I hope these difficulties will be avoided in Whiteshell. I trust a certain amount of autonomy will be granted to this town so that it will not be a company town, but rather an incorporated municipality as soon as a decision to let these people govern themselves is warranted. I hope also that this community in Manitoba, one which thousands of visitors will go to see and marvel at every year, will not become isolationist. I know there is a tendency among these people to keep to themselves. But I hope the public spirit and leadership which is evident among the people will be shared by the community at large. The former government chose a site in Manitoba for this research establishment in order to decentralize the operation at Chalk River which had grown to capacity. I think this decision was a proper one. I am glad the minister is following up the work which has been done and I trust the work being done at Whiteshell and Chalk River will in the years to come contribute to the advancement of Canada and of the world at large in the nuclear field.


Mr. Stenson:: The hon. gentleman said that Ontario hydro was building a new plant with the assistance of Atomic Energy Limited. I wonder whether the minister would tell us whether, as different contracts come up, private industry will be given every consideration in regard to them. Does the hon. gentleman feel that private industry today is playing a large enough part in the promotion of atomic energy and the construction of different plants in this country?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: The hon. member for Springfield asked some questions about housing in connection with the Whiteshell reactor in Manitoba. These houses are financed by Atomic
Supply-Defence Production Energy of Canada Limited, who secure the necessary money to build them from the government under the heading of loans or advances. This money is borrowed from the government at commercial rates of interest. Atomic Energy of Canada constructs the houses and then rents them to its staff at economic rents designed to pay for the cost of the house, repay the loan and provide investment. In a sense this is the same kind of arrangement which Central Mortgage and Housing has in effect elsewhere.


Joseph Slogan: What about the amortization?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I cannot give this information offhand, Mr. Chairman. I suspect it is of the order of 30 years; the same kind of criteria used by central mortgage and housing. The hon. member also asked whether I would undertake a brief dissertation on organically cooled reactors. As the hon. member knows, in a reactor there is required a medium to control the flow of neutrons, known as a moderator, and another substance is required to carry the heat generated from the interior of the reactor to a source where the heat energy can be used. In the case of the CANDU reactor, heavy water is used both as a moderator to control the flow of neutrons and also as a coolant to carry the heat generated by fission from the interior of the reactor to a spot where it can be transformed from heat energy to mechanical energy. Heavy water is an expensive item in itself- at the present time costing the Canadian government some $20.50 a pound-and using it as a coolant can be expensive, in terms of leakages and losses of one sort or another which require replacement.
As a consequence, as I outlined in my opening remarks, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is investigating the possibility of a system employing heavy water as a moderator-that is, continuing its employment as a moderator-but using as a coolant, or the medium for the transfer of heat from the reactor to the power generating system, boiling, light water, or ordinary boiling water- that is, ordinary water under considerable pressure, which will boil. Obviously the loss of this kind of water is not nearly so expensive to make up and replace. In addition to the possibilities of using heavy water as a moderator and boiling, light water as a coolant there are also some organic substances, organic liquids, whose values, advantages and disadvantages are currently planned for investigation at Whiteshell. This will be one of its main, initial preoccupations, namely the
9766	HOUSE OF
Supply-Defence Production
investigation of organic coolants, together with inorganic water. As hon. members know, the reactor there has its future ahead of it rather than behind it, so what the results of these investigations will be I of course cannot now say.
The hon. member also asked whether we would be participating in a 114-nation symposium next year on the use of nuclear energy for desalination, if I understood the question correctly. The answer to this question is yes, of course we will be. But I might say, in relation to the desalination program generally-and this is also to some degree an answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Peterborough-that Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is in the business of research in the field of nuclear energy and also in design, but is not in-and indeed in my view should not get into-the business of manufacturing and selling nuclear reactors. The function of A.E.C.L. up to the present has been-and I suggest should continue to be for the future-to produce ideas which it endeavours to farm out to manufacturing industry in Canada, and let industry make use of their capacities, their talents, to refine, to manufacture and to sell the reactors and the components of the reactors in this particular field.
We have potential manufacturers of reactors in Canada. In my opening remarks I pointed out that the government of Pakistan and Canadian General Electric were now negotiating for a contract for the manufacture and delivery, on a turnkey basis, in Karachi of a reactor. The role of Atomic Energy of Canada in this matter is to act as adviser, but the negotiator, the contractor who will manufacture, deliver and guarantee the apparatus will not be Atomic Energy of Canada; it will be Canadian General Electric. Similarly in the desalination field, the reactors required for heat generation in what is, in effect, a massive distillation process, will be their manufacture and their sale; in other words, the manufacture and sale will be the responsibility of manufacturing industry in Canada, rather than of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. Consequently our role at the conference to which the hon. member made reference will be that of technical expert or technical adviser, rather than a manufacturer interested in sales.
The hon. member also had some kind things to say about the relationship between the scientific community at Whiteshell and the local community. As the hon. member well knows, one of the reasons for choosing the


site at which the Whiteshell reactor, or the Whiteshell research station is being put up is the proximity of the University of Manitoba. It was because it was intended that there should be the closest possible relationship between the scientific community of Whiteshell and the university communities, not only of Manitoba but of the other provinces as well, that this site was chosen. It is certainly the object of A.E.C.L.-as indeed it is the object of the government-that there should be no tendency to what I think the hon. gentleman referred to as isolationism, of which I do not think there has been any evidence so far.


Mr. Canielon:: Mr. Chairman, I am prompted to say what I want to say now by the fact that the minister said the product with which we are concerned-I think I quote his words correctly-has to look for markets abroad and has to find its way to purchasers in every corner of the globe. If this is true, it seems to me it is about time we began to seriously consider looking for a different system of measurement than the one we use today. Of course I mean the metric system of measurement. Dr. Howlett, who is the director of applied physics at the national research council, says that a real crisis confronts the users of the English system.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but I think we will be coming in a moment or two to the estimates of the national research council, of which, as the hon. member has just mentioned, Dr. Howlett is a distinguished officer. Perhaps that might be a better time to examine the problems of our system of measurement and the possible advantages of the metric system.


Reginald (Reg) Cantelon: I will be pleased to keep my comments until we reach that point, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council, including the medical
research council-
1. Salaries and other expenses, $26,086,600.
Reginald (Reg) Cantelon: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may be allowed to continue what I began at the wrong place a moment ago. It seems to me that this is a favourable time at which to open the issue as to whether we should seriously consider taking the first steps toward introducing a metric system in this country. As Dr. Howlett pointed out, and as I quoted

a moment ago, it is a matter of grave concern that Canada is not readying for the switch.
I think everyone in this country realizes that it will be a very difficult thing to do, and it will require a long period of time to make the proper preparations to do this with the least possible disruption to the country. Consequently I think we should begin to take these first steps.
I am prompted to say this by my experience with measurement, although purely academic, for a great many years. I know of the difficulties that students in this country have in handling our system, and I know of the lack of difficulty and the simplicity of the metric system when it is applied in the scientific field, including chemistry and physics. It seems to me that even if we begin to make preparation for this move we would not only be assisting our students, who find themselves in the world today facing extremely heavy competition in the field of science from every other country of the world, but also assisting those who are trying to capture markets outside this country.
I should like to point out that some 90 per cent of the world's population today uses the metric system and that 27 countries in Europe, the Soviet union, China, Japan and India, where we are interested in selling atomic projects, central and South America all use the metric system. In fact as the years go by Canada becomes an anachronism in this sense. We are becoming old hat when it comes to working with a modern system of measurement. This being so, are we making preparation for what I consider to be an inevitable change? We are handicapping our position in world markets if we do not make this change. We are handicapping our young people educationally if we do not make this change, and we are certainly going to handicap the consumers of this country by not making the change.
One can go into a supermarket to purchase something and find four or five different sized cans, each with a different price. If we used the metric system I am sure that many producers of goods would find it impossible to confuse the consumer as they do today. I suggest it is time that we began to consider making this change.


John Napier Turner: Mr. Chairman, I wonder
whether the hon. member would permit a question? Without disagreeing with what he has said, because it has a good deal of merit and is attractive to me, what are his comments as to whether Canada could introduce the
Supply-Defence Production metric system before the United Kingdom and the United States do so, in view of our trade relationship with those two countries?


Reginald (Reg) Cantelon: Mr. Chairman, we would find it very difficult to introduce this system, particularly if the United States did not do so. The hon. member will recall that I said it is time we began to make preparation for the introduction of this change so as to simplify this change when we do make it. If we start preparing for this change we might be able to influence the United States and Great Britain to also prepare for the change. Great Britain is in fact changing its outmoded system of monetary measurement, and I think it would not be so stubborn as to refuse to change the other system.


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Chairman, as I make my very brief remarks under this heading I should like to thank the minister for his courtesy and promptness in answering the number of questions I have placed on the order paper during the past several weeks relating to research grants.
Leading into my brief remarks this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should say that while most people of this day and age recognize that we here in Canada are privileged to live in a prosperous country, most responsible political leaders on all sides of this house recognize that we are still facing a basic challenge. I know the minister in another department of government is aware of this challenge in respect of general and regional poverty. I think we can also be thankful that in this day and age we do not meet poverty with old fashioned demagoguery, but by action. Here in the federal sphere of government, while we have not met with the provinces and planned priorities in the social action and economic fields, Canadian governmental leaders in the federal and provincial fields recognize that education stands high on our list of priorities.
I shall now come to my point. In fighting regional and general poverty the federal government has a keen leading role to play in encouraging what I have often termed individual and national excellence. The research council has a great role to play in encouraging basic research in Canada. I thought this would be an opportune time for the minister to make a very brief statement based on my general remarks.
At this particular time in our nation's history many university leaders are conducting symposiums to discuss the pros and cons of what is becoming known as the brain drain.
9768	HOUSE OF
Supply-Defence Production Some people think there is a serious brain drain of scientists from Canada. Others are not sure if there really is such a drain, while yet others recognize there is one but feel it is not as serious as it might be. In general terms there is a debate going on in the nation today relating to what people loosely and generally call a brain drain.
I know the minister will report to us at a future date on the many findings of the research secretariat, but I for one, without going into great detail, feel that if individual and national excellence is to be encouraged here in Canada, as we fight poverty with facts and not with slogans, and if we are really going to play a role in doing this, we have got to pay much more attention to encouraging basic research here in Canada, and this is going to cost the federal government a lot more money. I do not know whether these figures are correct or in exact detail, or on what they are based, but I have heard time and time again this coined expression expressed publicly, that while Canada spends $1 per scientist, the United Kingdom spends $3 and the United States spends $10 to $15. Perhaps the minister and his officials will wish to comment on these statistics I have put forward.
Prime Minister Wilson in his recently concluded campaign in the United Kingdom stressed that in his country, in order to get the economy moving forward in a realistic way, and in order to meet the basic challenge of poverty, he recognized the vital role as does President Johnson-that the government must play in increasing assistance to basic research. I should like to ask the minister to make some general statement at this time relating to his opinion about the causes of the brain drain of scientists from Canada to other countries, the extent of its seriousness and what positive policies the federal government now contemplates to encourage more Canadian scientists to stay in Canada, as we are attempting to encourage, through the federal government, individual and national excellence. This is something I feel we must do if we are going to really fight regional and general poverty.
As I said at the outset, I have put many questions relating to medical research matters on the order paper and I should like to thank the minister for his helpful answers and cooperation in this regard. It has been said over the last few months that we are about to face a critical shortage of doctors in Canada and that we must have more doctors in training if we are going to have the same
[Mr. GrafTtey.l

standards of medical care in 1970 as we have today. We have been warned time and time again not only in the Hall report but by other responsible individuals that unless we meet the challenge immediately we are going to be faced sooner rather than later with a critical shortage of doctors and dentists in Canada.
With assistance from various departments of government I have tried to get information in this regard. The Canadian universities foundation is carrying out a pilot research project in Ontario alone to find out how many applicants to study medicine were refused admission to medical schools this year. The initial figures are misleading because one student may have made four or five applications, but has only been accepted by one medical school, and yet the three or four refusals appear in the statistics. The Canadian universities foundation is doing important work in having individuals on their staff trying to get the true picture in this regard from the universities, but no matter what their findings may be I think we are all agreed that in the future, as we have learned from the Hall report and other sources, we are going to have to build more medical schools.
I should like to get to the point we are discussing under the particular item relating to grants for medical research. It seems to me that the federal government is going to have to play a much greater role in the future if we are going to keep our medical research scientists in Canada at more properly staffed medical schools. I should like the minister to outline the problem generally as he sees it at the present time. I know that nobody, including the medical research council, can always get exactly what it asks for. However, I feel it must be emphasized that if we are going to have more medical schools we will also have to have more medical schools doing more important research projects, which is going to involve a greater degree of assistance on the part of the federal authorities.
I know it is impossible to do justice to a subject of this nature in the time at our disposal. I also recognize that the minister is going to report on the findings of the research secretariat at a future date, but I hope he will find it opportune at the present time to give the committee a general outline of government policies intended to increase assistance for medical research in particular and industrial research in general, in order that we

can keep more Canadian scientists doing their work in Canada.


Joseph Slogan: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a tew words along the same lines with regard to medical research. In looking over the estimates for the last 10 years I notice that the budget of the national research council has increased from $14,794,367 in 1954-55 to $47,101,571 in 1963-64. This is quite a substantial increase. I think it is very well merited and perhaps reflects somewhat the interest that is being shown in research throughout Canada.
In the year 1963-64 $5,100,000 was allocated to medical research out of the over $47 million spent by the national research council. My beef, and it is one I have brought up in the house before, is that the amount of money allocated to dental research, which would be included of course in the figure I have given for medical research, bears no relationship whatsoever to the relationship of dentistry to medicine in our communities. The relationship between the amount spent on dentistry and the amount spent on medicine by the average person is far different from the relationship of the amount of money spent on dental research to that spent on medical research. I believe that only 1 to 2 per cent of the money spent on medical research is allocated to dentistry.
I am making this point for a very valid reason in that dental diseases are almost universal and yet are largely preventable. So it is a most deplorable situation when the community as a whole neglects to try to do something about dental diseases, which no doubt could be largely prevented if certain public health measures were followed and if further research were carried on.
My plea is that the national research council look into the matter to see if more money cannot be allocated to dental research. Perhaps the minister could give me an answer on that point. I know one answer is that it is pretty difficult to get anybody to do this type of research. Last year $31,953 was allocated for fellowships for dental research and $165,500, I believe, was allocated by way of grants for dental research projects, but all the money allocated in the last 10 years for dental research comes to less than $1 million, which is not even 20 per cent of the amount of money allocated for medical research last year alone.
I think there is a very great discrepancy here. I am not placing the blame solely on the minister or the national research council. I think that the bulk of the blame falls on
Supply-Defence Production the Minister of National Health and Welfare and the officials of that department, but I certainly should like to see the national research council allocate more of its budget for dental research and I would hope that this would be done in the future.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall vote No. 1 carry?


Joseph Slogan: Before the vote is carried, I asked the minister a question and I should like an answer.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, I was planning to wait until all the questions on the various items had been asked but if the committee would prefer me to go ahead now, I will. I think it might be more convenient for all questions to be asked and then I will answer them all at the same time.


William Heward Grafftey: That is in order.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
15. Assistance toward research in industry, $2,700,000.
Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: With the greatest respect, Mr. Chairman, the record is not unbroken here. The minister indicated he would be prepared to answer questions and we are almost on the last item for the council.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I can give the hon. member the assurance that if the last item does carry I will still answer the questions.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: We are on the last item save one. Let the minister reply on item 15.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, this lack of confidence is somewhat distressing.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Chairman, I want to correct that impression. All I was doing was trying to slow down the speed with which you were turning the sheets.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Clearly, Mr. Chairman, our research activities which are devoted to the improvement of efficiency and overcoming unnecessary slowness have now uncovered a new field for examination. Perhaps we could have a look to see if we could devise some way of stopping this slowdown.
The hon. member for Kindersley suggested that something should be done concerning the adoption of the metric system by Canada. I think the parliamentary secretary made the point fairly clearly that Canada cannot adopt the metric system unilaterally. Indeed, Canada cannot take very large steps toward the introduction of such a system as long as our largest buyer, the United States, is not taking
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Supply-Defence Production comparable steps in the same direction. However, preparations are being made looking toward this being achieved. As the hon. member will be well aware, in very large areas of the scientific community the metric system is the standard of measurement, not only in respect of weight and volume but also of length. This, of course, has extended into the schools now. When I was a boy, which was relatively few years ago, the metric system was unknown at the school I attended. We were satisfied with the English system of measurement. I understand now from my children, however, the metric system occupies as important a place as the English system of measurement in our schools today. This is extending, then, through the educational system some preparation for the adoption of the system.
As the pamphlet read to the committee by the hon. gentleman indicates, there is an awareness of this problem and a willingness to do something about it on the part of the national research council and its staff. I, myself, periodically in speeches exhort Canadian industry to prepare itself to meet the great markets of the world outside North America and to recognize that they are liable to have to sell their products under the metric rather than the English system of measurement. The changeover does call for a very substantial investment in both measuring equipment and manufacturing equipment. Perhaps one of the things we should be doing is giving some thought to the development or evolution of machinery which will be able to measure with equal facility in either the metric or English system. Some preliminary thought has been given to this. I believe the hon. member has raised a valid point and thought should be given to this. Preparations should be made. I should like to reassure him that thought has and is being given and preparations are being made. However, this is not something which is likely, nor indeed could, happen overnight.
The hon. member for Springfield, taking the easiest part of the task first, made the observation that in his view the amount of money devoted to dental research, as a proportion of the total amount devoted to medical research, was too small. I am not quite sure how one should divide up either the organs of the body or the ailments of the body and apportion the amount of money devoted to their investigation. I can tell him, however, that I have had representations from those interested in pediatrics who make exactly the same suggestion, that the amount of 

money devoted to the ailments of children is too small; that more is needed. Those who are interested in communicable diseases are of the view that too small a proportion of the total amount of money going to medical research is devoted to this series of ailments from which we suffer from time to time.


An hon. Member:: What do you think?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I have no answer as to what are the right proportions. I am told by the medical research council that where they can find high quality fellows in any medical field, including dentistry, they are only too glad to support them. In fact, the big problem in this area is to find competent, high quality people to support rather than trying to deny funds to deserving research fellows. The same is equally true in connection with applications for equipment grants in respect of medical research. Where there are deserving, high quality research projects, with what appears to be a useful potential, these are supported.
The hon. member may have noted that in the period from 1959-60, to date, the funds allocated to the medical research council have risen from some $2 million at an annual rate to a figure in 1964-65 of close to $7 million. This represents a growth factor of three during that period.
The medical research council, and indeed the national research council, are fully alive to the needs for increased research effort in our research community in this country, both for the work it can produce and the support research produces for the teaching apparatus in Canada. As a consequence, they are pressing the government which, in turn, is in agreement with this philosophy, to have increases almost on an annual basis in the amount of funds allocated for fundamental research in both the field of natural science and the field of medicine.
If the hon. gentleman has any influence in the dental community, I hope he will be able to urge them to bring forward high class applicants who would be interested in undertaking research in the dental field. If this can be done, I do not think there will be a refusal on the grounds of a lack of funds.
The hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi really invited me to survey the whole field of research, not only to survey it but also produce justification for it. This is a rather tall order. Perhaps I could briefly say that, in respect of medical research, what I have just said to the hon. member for Springfield has some relevance. The total amount devoted to medical research has risen by about the

same factor of three during this period 195960 to date. Here again the shortage, if any there be, is of qualified people rather than funds with which to support them. The hon. gentleman made some reference to the brain drain and of the investigations now being carried out to establish the real facts in connection with this situation, as distinct from what I believe to be some effort to try to extrapolate a few individual experiences and turn them into a condemnation of the whole system. The fact of the matter is that we have not too much factual data in this field. This is something I regret and something about which I hope I will be able to do something. We have got to have a great deal more in the way of background and factual information on which to base not only intelligent prognostications but also intelligent policies for the future. This, as the hon. gentleman is well aware, is one of the main reasons for the appointment of the scientific secretariat.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Hasn't the government a policy at the present time with regard to this? I may have misunderstood some of the things that were said during the campaigning and in this chamber since then, but I understood the government had a policy in relation to all these matters. I am now left with the impression that there is not any policy except "We will do some research and find out the facts and then get a policy."
The minister is really confusing us and I suggest to him we would appreciate something a little bit more positive, or else he should explain to us why we need facts and statistics now instead of a policy.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I have not quite finished what I was going to say in reply to the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi. Surely an intelligent policy should not be elaborated in the absence of facts? There are some people who advocate the construction of a policy on emotion, rumour or intuition, but in the field of science I do not think this should be the foundation upon which a policy is built. The hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi asked what we were doing about the so-called brain drain-


Douglas Mason Fisher: I would like the minister to explain to me what the national research council has been doing all these years and why we have had ministers responsible for scientific research all these years if now, in the fall of 1964, we find the minister coming forward saying we have not got a policy, that it is emotional and intuitive to enunciate a policy, and that he is waiting for the facts.
Supply-Defence Production What is the justification for the N.R.C. and all these fat reports we have had if we cannot get a statement on policy now? The only justification we have had is that each year the branch is getting a little bigger and so it could not be too bad.
The minister had better come off it and give us the government's policy on this whole question of science. The point raised by the hon. member for Springfield has been known to laymen such as myself who have only a nodding acquaintance with the dental profession. Yet the minister comes in and foists off a professional with the suggestion that some people have ideas and other people have other ideas. That is no answer. When the hell are we going to get some answers from the government and from people like the minister who has the responsibility? What bothers me is the casual slackness of coming with an item such as this and really dusting us off, saying he has to get some facts and figures.
Does the minister realize how aggravating and annoying this attitude is, especially when on other occasions, particularly when speeches are made outside the house, all the honours are given to the national research council and all these various academic people working in these fields? When we are given information in this chamber it is as though we were a bunch of dunces who could not understand it. I am going around in circles but I suggest the minister is going around in circles too.
At the very least the minister should give us an undertaking that some time within the next year, if this parliament survives, he will be able to come in and tell us the government's policy in the field of science and research, and fit into the picture somewhere the point raised about dentistry. He might even mention pediatrics, and give us some indication where the government is going.
Every damned ministry I know of has some kind of research or fact finding program going. For example, the Minister of Labour says he is getting a manpower consultant service going. We want to know what the government is going to do about the Hall commission recommendations but we are told, "Just wait until we analyse and get all the facts in." There are committees by the dozen all over the place finding out things, yet here is a government which came to power on a platform that it knew what it was doing.
The minister was a t.v. star, along with the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of

Supply-Defence Production Northern Affairs and National Resources, in those one minute blurbs which were broadcast again and again, in which the main theme was "We know how to get Canada going. We know the answers." I am not going to say any more. Today the minister has revealed he has not got any answers. He is just reading something off, giving details about atomic energy that his civil servants prepared for him. He shows no indication that he has a grasp of this field of science or research. I don't mind him dismissing us as though we did not know anything, but I don't see how a minister, responsible for the field the minister is responsible for, can come into this chamber and treat us so cavalierly and tell us "If you just wait until we get a few more facts and statistics everything will be fine."
I am sorry I have had to express what in effect is a bad temper, but seeing this performance I cannot help but feel we had a giant rooking in the last election campaign and in the general stance of this ministry, which seems to be all-wise and all-knowing.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I do not think I have made claims to be all-wise and all-knowing. If the hon. gentleman asked me what is the policy of the government in relation to science I would say this covers a large field indeed. I am prepared to answer specific questions, but this is a general one. I could answer that the government's policy with regard to science is an approving one; is one of assistance.
Speaking of election campaign undertakings, one of those undertakings was implemented in relation to the proposed appointment of a Canadian science council which, in the scientific field, will perform the same role as the economic council of Canada. It will be the purpose of this body to try and delineate-and I am sure it will be successful -the areas in which scientific endeavour can most usefully be undertaken and those areas in which effort might be less productive than if otherwise employed. This is a step in the organization of the development of science.
If the hon. gentleman has a specific question I would be glad to try and answer it, but to ask what is the policy of the government with relation to science covers a very wide spectrum.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It is your responsibility.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Yes, I agree. It is currently my responsibility and I am prepared, in respect of scientific policy, to give factual answers to the extent that I am able. The hon. gentleman has suggested that the question with


regard to dentistry was brushed off, but if the hon. gentleman had just listened I suggested, as the hon. member for Springfield knows, that there has not been in the dental community the interest and enthusiasm for research that there has been in other fields. Further the medical research council will sympathetically receive applications for assistance in the field of dental research. As far as the medical research council is concerned, there is no shortage of funds or of interest on its side. It is the dental community which has to develop a greater interest in research than it currently possesses.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wonder if I could ask the minister a question. It is not loaded. If there is a shortage of something obvious, such as librarians or teachers, provincial governments I know of follow a policy of establishing courses to deal with this shortage. In Ontario the provincial government is thinking of establishing a library school. If necessary, teachers colleges are established. In other words, the government accepts responsibility for getting specialists in these fields. But if I understand correctly what the minister is telling the committee, he is really passing the buck-he is passing the whole problem back to the profession. If this is the policy of the government, I am glad to know. The minister has made it perfectly clear. It really means the government has no policy with regard to science or specialties within the field of science; the policy is really one which must be generated within the disciplines themselves. If that is the policy of the government, it is very clear. I do not know whether the hon. member for Springfield received the same impression, but that is what I consider to be a brush-off. I took the minister's answer to be: It is up to the dentists themselves to generate a response.
I just happen to have a different conception of the role of government in the scientific field and all I can do in closing the contribution I am making to this discussion is to suggest that the minister look at some of the papers which have been prepared by the Labour party in Britain, or that he read Mr. Wilson's speech on science. I could also suggest he read a little of C. P. Snow.


Joseph Slogan: I do not wish to become involved in a long debate. However, I cannot accept the minister's proposition that all this money has always been available but there has been nobody to take it. I base this on the fact that the dental profession in Ontario was asked to contribute to a research fund and I think its members did contribute some $50,000.
977a

I am sure they would not have done this if more than enough money was already available for research.
It seems to me that with only one half of 1 per cent of the money going into medical research generally being spent in the field of dentistry, there is an inordinate discrepancy and I believe some initiative should be taken by the national research council to see that it is rectified. The dental profession itself has taken some steps in this regard; it has contributed money to dental research. So, as I say, I cannot accept the proposition that there has been money available which has not been taken up.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I would point out that the medical research council does not support dental institutions or organizations. Its help is directed toward individuals, not toward organizations. There are a number of dental organizations across the country which either provide their own funds or which receive assistance from endowments, other bodies such as municipal governments, and so on. The moneys of which I am speaking are the sums available to help highly qualified fellows in the dental field pursue research activities. Obviously the dental associations have projects of their own, both research and performance projects, but the medical research council and, in the wider field, the national research council devote their efforts to individuals rather than to organizations and would not be a source of funds for organizational or institutional activity.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to ask the minister a question with regard to the annual report of the national research council. The distribution office of the House of Commons has furnished me with the report for the fiscal year 1962-63, the latest one in the possession of that office. Where is the annual report for 1963-64?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: As on a number of occasions, there has been some difficulty in getting the current report translated, but I am told that it is now in the hands of the printer and we hope it will be available soon.


Gordon Minto Churchill: We had the same answer from the Minister of Veterans Affairs. This makes two reports which have been very seriously delayed this year.


William Heward Grafftey: Very briefly, as we close this discussion, may I say I think the minister was going a long way toward answering our general inquiries to my satisfaction before we were slightly sidetracked. May I assume that the scientific secretariat is making a
Supply-Defence Production study in depth of the reasons for the so-called brain drain and will make recommendations to the minister as to how such a drain can be stopped, if it does exist? Do I understand it will recommend a policy designed to encourage more scientists to stay in Canada and carry out scientific research in Canada.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I was about to say with regard to the brain drain that it has been established that over the past six or seven years there has been a net increase of scientists in Canada. The numbers who have been lost either temporarily or permanently by emigration have been more than matched by those gained as a result of immigration. In addition, we have the natural output from our educational institutions. There has also been recently an encouraging return, particularly in a number of medical fields, of senior scientific people from the United States, either Canadians who, having carried out postgraduate work south of the border, return to Canada or of United States citizens who come up here because of the opportunities offered for research work.
It is recognized generally I think-certainly it is recognized by the government-that the scale of research work being carried out in this country is probably not as great as we would like. Consequently, whether or not there is a net brain drain it is desirable to increase the scale of research being done in Canada, and encouragement should be given to this end. The means of encouragement are provided through a number of mechanisms, one of which we have been discussing this afternoon, namely the medical research council. Its appropriations, and consequently its grants, have risen over the current year as compared with the preceding year and are expected to rise again in the coming year. The same is true of the national research council. It is recognized that there should be an increase in the amount of grants made available and we are proposing an increase with a view to lessening whatever net brain drain there may be.
As the hon. member suggested, it is hoped the scientific secretariat will be successful in gathering the basic information upon which an intelligent long range future policy can be based.


William Heward Grafftey: One last question. Can it be generally admitted, before we know the findings of the secretariat, that the salaries and remunerations of scientists and the facilities open to them need reconsideration? It seems to me that seven or eight years ago higher salaries and better research facilities per se
9774	HOUSE OF
Supply-Defence Production in the United States seemed to attract our better research brains. They felt it necessary to leave this country in order to work with better facilities in many general fields, and naturally there was talk of higher salaries to a very great extent.
Is it correct to say that in the last few years there has been a general improvement for Canada in this situation? I make these general remarks, Mr. Chairman, realizing that there is a certain amount of folly in preaching nationalism in scientific research, because we have to share our brains with the rest of the world and I do not believe we should always get very excited about our scientists crossing back and forth across the border to the south. But in the two fields I have pinpointed, namely salaries and facilities, has the situation improved considerably in the last year in order to keep Canadian scientists carrying out work in Canada?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, I think I can safely say that both situations have been improved, perhaps to the point now where salary differential is not a significant or too important factor. I am told that what most interests a research scientist are his opportunities to develop his chosen line of research, and that this to him is very much more important-namely the environment in which he works and the kind of work he is doing-than the annual remuneration. So while both have been improved over the past few years, perhaps the more significant is the environment, meaning facilities, than the salary differential.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister how much of the money in this vote is being extended to assisting in scientific-


Mr.   Mc@: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether I can interrupt the hon. member for a moment. I had undertaken earlier to have the Secretary of State for External Affairs appear in the chamber to answer questions as soon as he was available from the interview he was having with the foreign minister of Belgium. The minister has now come into the chamber. I am in the hands of the committee as to what they wish to do, and I realize how very late it is.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, the only trouble is that only five minutes are available and I am not certain that the Secretary of State for External Affairs could answer our questions in that short space of time.
tMr. Grafftey.]


Stanley Howard Knowles: That would give him time for only one sentence.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Could we have the minister's estimates brought forward first thing tomorrow and restricted to the questions and answers with regard to the subject we raised this afternoon?


Mr. Martin (Essex Easi):: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that I could not be here earlier, but I think the committee will understand that the foreign minister for Belgium was here. I have just seen him off at the airport. He came specially for a two or three hour visit on a matter of some importance; otherwise I would have been in the chamber this afternoon.
I am in the hands of the house leader. If
he wishes to proceed with the estimates tomorrow, I think that is satisfactory; but I do not know that we should proceed for one purpose: I believe we should proceed to discuss the estimates. I cannot, however, be here tomorrow night. The United Nations peace keeping conference is in session here and I have to meet with them tomorrow evening. I could be here tomorrow afternoon. In the few minutes remaining I would be very glad to deal with any questions my hon. friend has in mind.


Mr.   Mc@: I made the undertaking to the committee, Mr. Chairman, and I wanted to keep it. Do hon. members wish to proceed now?


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: No, there is not enough time.


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering how much scientific development and research is being undertaken by the department into the problem of the development of industries in underdeveloped areas such as the one I represent; whether any research assistance has been given to this problem, how much, in what areas, and for what purposes?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, in respect of assistance to underdeveloped areas perhaps some confusion arises in that I am the minister of the Department of Industry whose responsibility it should be, whereas now we are dealing with the national research council, which reports to parliament through me. As the hon. member will recognize, the national research council is not charged with this kind of responsibility. I refer to the development of less favoured areas in Canada. Consequently-


William Arnold Peters: This vote is $300 million and it is authorized for assistance toward research

in industry. I would think that some of this money must be used for the development of industry, if it is authorized; if not, we should know it is not being used.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: I am not sure what vote the hon. gentleman is now talking about.


William Arnold Peters: I am talking about vote 15(a).


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: That vote, Mr. Chairman, is related to grants made to industrial concerns to assist them in the development of research within the corporate organization. These grants are unrelated to the area in which the industry is operating, but they are made with a view to improving the quality and the quantum of research within a company. They are designed to develop within Canadian industrial organizations a greater ability and a greater talent with which to carry out effective research.


William Arnold Peters: I would assume this to mean that all this money is being used for is to assist industries themselves. Is this the policy of the department? The charge has been made by people that come to my office that if we were to look into the Department of Industry very closely we would find that under the previous deputy minister an immense amount of research and studies was carried out in connection with the aircraft industry, but at the expense of all other sections of research. This may be true, and it may not be true. We are certainly not finding out today. I would think that part of the minister's responsibility should be in respect of those industries that are not as well off as some of those that are able to carry out their own research programs to a degree. I believe some of this vote should be expended in assisting them.
For instance, in my area we have the silver mining industry which has a very great problem in regard to refining. I think development of other industries should take second place to the over-all responsibility for the underdeveloped industrial areas where industrial research could produce industries that would provide employment in the area and do some of the jobs the Department of Industry has so far not been able to do in the underdeveloped areas.
If it is the policy of the department to use this money only to bolster existing industries, then personally I am opposed to it and I think we should reduce the amount. I say this because in my opinion this sum of money could do a great deal of good in areas where we have not been able to develop industries, simply because we do not know what types
Supply-Defence Production of industry will use the by-products of the primary industries in those areas. This is certainly true in most of the mining communities. We find, for instance, large quantities of slag left in all parts of northern Ontario. Refractory brick, with the proper treatment, could be made from this type of material. We are not capable of doing research in this field. If the national research council is not willing to do it, I ask, who is? The gold mining industry that is leaving the mine is not going to do it, even if it has the money with which to do it. The Department of Industry has to be interested in it, and I think the work has to be done under the national research council. Certainly I am not satisfied that this is being done. I am not satisfied that type of assistance is available.
May I call it six o'clock, Mr. Chairman.


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Chairman, if hon. gentlemen are agreeable perhaps I can make a reply to the hon. member's suggestion.
In respect of his specific suggestion about the utilization of slurries, slags and slimeys, this is a field in which the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has developed very considerable competence and a great deal of skill. It is that department rather than the national research council, which is charged with the responsibility for development in this particular field. It would be inappropriate and perhaps unwise for the national research council, whose estimates we are now considering, because the hon. member does not feel enough is being done, to duplicate or redo the work the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is doing.
In so far as the second portion of his suggestion is concerned, namely that research money should be expanded in a way to improve the prosperity of small businesses, or in a way to get small businesses established, I should like to point out that research in any field generally calls for an expenditure of something of the order of $30,000 per year per scientist. It is not possible to have any kind of research of a significant character done by much more than a team of three scientists. If we are going to have a coherent and likely productive research effort it calls for a team involving an annual expenditure of something in the order of $90,000 per year. This means that it is very difficult to organize within very small businesses research grants which are going to have a likely and useful productive result. To this end we are trying to encourage industry and the sciences to undertake research work on behalf of all of their constituent members, and thus be

Supply-Items Passed
able to afford a greater load than one small firm could carry by itself.


Herman Maxwell Batten: Shall vote No. 15a carry?


William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, I should like to call it six o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the house leader what matters will be engaging the attention of the members of this house tomorrow and Friday.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we propose to submit first the estimates of the Department of External Affairs, and then proceed to the estimates of the Department of the Secretary of State and the other agencies for which that minister answers to the house. On Friday we will be calling the estimates of the Department of National Defence.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister yet tell us what we might be doing on Monday?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We will be proceeding with the resolution stage of the Canada pension plan.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can we count on that?


George James McIlraith: Yes. After that we will proceed with the redistribution bill.


[Stage Direction]
It being eight minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following Items were passed in committee of supply this day]:

[Stage Direction]
B-Emergency measures organization-
20. Administration and operation, $2,600,000.
25. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment including authority to make recoverable advances not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts of the shares of the governments of the provinces of the costs of joint programs. $2,096,000.
30. Grants to provinces and municipalities for civil defence and related purposes and authority to make recoverable advances in accordance with terms and conditions approved by the treasury board, $5,600,000.
C-Crown companies-
40b. Canadian Arsenals Limited-administration and operation, $1,554,000.
Atomic energy control board-
1. Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board. $159,000.
5. Grants for researches and investigations with respect to atomic energy, $1,250,000.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-
(Research program) -
10. Current operation and maintenance including expendable research equipment, $34,861,400.
15. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of works near the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $10,306,600.
Loans, investments and advances-
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-
L5. Advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in such amounts and on such terms and conditions (including the delivery to Her Majesty, in satisfaction of the advances, of obligations or shares of the company) as the governor in council may approve, to finance the construction of the Douglas Point generating station; to finance the construction of housing and other works near the Whiteshell nuclear research establishment: and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of housing and other works for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $12,277,000.
National research council, including the medical
research council-*
1. Salaries and other expenses, $26,086,600.
5. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works land and equipment, $5,722,300.
10. Scholarships and grants in aid of research. $23,352,000.
15. Assistance toward research in industry, $2,700,000.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, November 5, 1964