1964-09-23

CANADIAN FLAG


[Stage Direction]
Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's)
presented the fourth and fifth reports of the special committee on a Canadian flag, and moved that the reports be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Hon. Walter L. Gordon (Minister of Finance) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-123, to amend certain acts administered in the Department of Insurance.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fisher: 1.	What persons select and edit the weekly press summary of the office of the Prime Minister?
2.	What are the formal guidelines or policy requirements given to these people in the preparation of this summary?
3.	What is the estimated cost of the operation, including any clipping service on which it is based?
4.	What allowance is paid or what attention is given to items in the press which are critical of or antagonistic to the administration or the ministry or the Liberal party or the prime minister?
5.	What purpose does the summary serve?
6.	What is the distribution of it?


Mr. Jack Davis (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister):: 1. A member of the staff of the Prime Minister's office.
2. To prepare abstracts of press items and comment relating to issues that are of current interest to the government and assemble them into a weekly summary.
3. The salary of the individual concerned plus the cost of producing the document in question. The clipping service is a separate operation for information purposes extending beyond the press summary.
4 and 5. The purpose of the press summary is to provide the Prime Minister, cabinet ministers and members of their staffs with the essence of editorial comment and news reports from various sections of the country on matters of interest to the government. Equal attention is given to all items whether complimentary or critical. The test is whether they relate to matters of government concern.
6.	As indicated, the summary is prepared for the Prime Minister and members of the cabinet in the first instance and distributed to them and members of their staffs. Members of parliament, and others who have shown an interest in the summary and asked to be added to the distribution list also receive it and, within limits, it can be made available to additional persons on application.


NORTH SYDNEY MARINE RAILWAY
Mr. Muir (Cape Breton: North and Victoria):
What steps are being taken by the government to provide employment at the North Sydney Marine Railway Company Limited of North Sydney, Nova Scotia, through the allocation of a naval vessel for refit and/or repairs?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):: During 1963 approximately $150,000 worth of allocated refit and repair work was directed to the North Sydney Marine Railway Company in comparison with $118,000 in the preceding year. To date, this year the general refit and repair program available for allocation is substantially down as compared with preceding years, but an appropriate proportion has already been directed to the North Sydney Marine Railway Company, and it will continue to receive a share of any further refit or repair work which may develop this year.

Questions


EFFECTS ON HUMAN HERBICIDES AND PESTICIDES
Mr. Howe (Hamilion: South):
1.	Is the government conducting or supporting research on the effects on humans of long term absorption and retention of herbicides and pesticides and, if so, at which institutions, and under whose direction is such research being conducted?
2.	What is the annual cost to the government of each of these projects?


Hon. Judy V. LaMarsh (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: 1 and 2. Under the national health grants the Department of National Health and Welfare is giving support to research on the effects on humans of long term absorption and retention of herbicides and pesticides, as follows: St. Dunstan's University, Charlottetown, under the direction of Dr. John Craig. Approved for 1964-65, $9,275. University of Montreal under the direction of Dr. F. J. Tourangeau. Approved for 1964-65, $19,691. Department of public health, province of Alberta, under the direction of J. H. Brown, M.Sc. Approved for 1964-65, $11,950.


STUDIES OF WATER FLUORIDATION
Mr. Howe (Hamilion: South):
1.	What studies into the effects of fluoridation of water have been conducted by (a) the medical research council (b) the national research council?
2.	Under whose direction were such studies conducted?
3.	What has been the cost to the government of each of these studies?


Hon. C. M. Drury (Minister of Industry):: In so far as the medical research council and the national research council are concerned, the answer is as follows:
1.	(a) Medical research council: 1. Nil.
(b) Studies conducted by the national research council: 1. The only study undertaken by the national research council was a review of recent scientific literature which arose out of other work.
2.	Dr. N. E. Gibbons and Dr. W. H. Cook.
3.	The cost is estimated to be $2,000.


CONTROL OF USE OF CHEMICAL PESTICIDES
Mr. Dinsdale: 1.	Are regulations in effect to control the use of chemical pesticides in Canada in (a) national uarks (b) provincial areas (c) areas privately owned, with a view to limiting contamination of lakes, streams, fish and wildlife and, if so, what is the nature of these regulations?
2.	Has any research been undertaken in Canada to determine the possible harmful effects of pesticides?
IMr. Plckersglll.l


Hon. Maurice Lamontagne (Secretary of Slate):: 1. (a) There are no regulations to control the use of chemical pesticides in the national parks, but activities in that field are carefully controlled in accordance with instructions prepared by experts using the most up to date information available in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the Department of Agriculture; (b) this is a matter for provincial control; (c) private land owners are free to exercise their rights to protect their private property.
2. Yes. Such research to provide supplemental information to that obtained from other countries is being carried out in all regions on an increasing scale.


SHIP COLLISIONS, ST. LAWRENCE RIVER
Mr. Irvine: 1.	What was the total number of ship collisions in the St. Lawrence river since January 1, 1964?
2.	What was the total number of lives lost?
3.	What was the total monetary loss in equipment and cargo?


John Whitney Pickersgill: 1. Total number of ship collisions was eleven, eight in 1963 and three in 1964, as follows: April 4, 1963, Mellum/Ascot; June 4, 1963, Carl Schemedeman/Coverdale; July 18, 1963, Seven Skies/Cartier; July 19, 1963, Canadoc/Calgadoc/Bariloche; July 20, 1963, Roonagh Head/Tritonica; October 11, 1963, African Glade/Farrandoc; December 3, 1963, Manchester Merchant/Lionel; December 8, 1963, Procyon/Fort Albany; April 10, 1964, Irish Willow/Wenny; June 12, 1964, Spruce-dale/Anette; September 5,	1964, Leecliffe
Hall/ Apolliona.
2.	Forty, 37 in 1963 and three in 1964. in 1964.
3.	The Department of Transport does not have a record of the monetary value of lost equipment and cargo.


C.B.C. PAYMENTS TO RADIO NORD INC.
Mr. Laprise: Since 1958, what amounts did the C.B.C. pay each year to Radio Nord Inc.?


Maurice Lamontagne: I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that it has not been customary to require the corporation to give details of amounts paid to individual affiliated stations as this could be prejudicial to the corporation in its business dealings with its other network stations.


NEW COMPANY ESTABLISHED, PORT ALFRED, QUE.
Mr. Cole (Chicoutimi): What is the name of the company which has been recently established at Port Alfred and which will benefit from the tax exemptions granted to depressed areas?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: No
new enterprise in Port Alfred has signified to the government its intention to benefit from the federal tax incentives to new industry in designated areas.


DISCUSSIONS WITH U.S. ON AUTOMOTIVE PARTS INCENTIVE PROGRAM
Mr. Scott: 1.	Has the government recently held meetings with representatives of the United States to discuss the automotive parts incentive program of the Canadian government?
2.	In view of the urgent and widespread interest in the matter did the government offer to make alterations in the program and what was the nature of such alterations, and what degree of acceptance did such alterations, if any, receive from the United States officials?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: 1 and 2. Replied to in answer to an oral question on the orders of the day by the hon. member for Danforth, September 22 at page 8287 of Hansard.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Bell: 1.	How many Greek seamen, since January 1, 1964, have been or will be deported at the termination of jail sentences for illegal entry into Canada?
2.	What are the names, places of conviction, sentences and fines that have been imposed against such seamen?
3.	Are seamen of other nationalities prosecuted in the same manner as Greek seamen for illegal entry?
Return tabled.


PERSONS HELD IN JAIL AWAITING DEPORTATION
Mr. Martineau: 1.	What are the names of the persons presently held in the jails across Canada who are to be deported when they have completed their sentence?
2.	In each case, what was the nature of the offence?
3.	In each case, what is the reason for deportation?
Return tabled.



*IMPORTS-EXPORTS OF TURKEYS, PORK, ETC.

[Stage Direction]
Question No. 1,905-Mr. Muir (Lisgar): What is the number of pounds imported and exported (between Canada and the United States)
Motions for papers
of turkeys, eggs, hogs and pork products, from January 1 to August 31, 1964?
Return tabled.

Mr. Watson (Assiniboia): 1.	How many motor vehicles passed through the port of entry at Emerson, Manitoba, between 12 midnight and 8 a.m. during the period May 15 to September 15, 1964?
2.	How many motor vehicles passed through the port of entry at North Portal, Saskatchewan, between 12 midnight and 8 a.m. May 15 to September 15, 1964?
3.	How many motor vehicles passed through the port of entry at Regway, Saskatchewan, between 12 midnight and 8 a.m. May 15 to September 15, 1964?
4.	How many motor vehicles passed through the port of entry at Coutts, Alberta, between 12 midnight and 8 a.m. May 15 to September 15, 1964?
5.	What was the total number of vehicles for 24 hours per day at each of these ports May 15 to September 15, 1964?
Return tabled.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

Mr. J. B. Stewart (Parliamentary Secretary to Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, motion 164 is acceptable to the government. Motion 166 is acceptable to the government subject to the usual reservation concerning agreement by the provincial government. I ask that motion 165 be allowed to stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall motions 164 and 166 be adopted?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



SURVEILLANCE OF POSTAL EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 164-Mr. Orlikow:
That an order of the house do issue for a copy of all correspondence between the Postmaster General or the deputy postmaster general and employees' organizations relevant to the construction of peep-holes used by the department to observe postal employees, either while these employees are working or in washroom facilities.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 166-Mr. Bell:
That an humble address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause to be laid before this house a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the province of New Brunswick and any others regarding the proposed extension of Fundy national park and/or the proposed Fundy trail during the last ten years.
Motion agreed to.
8340	HOUSE OF
Question of Privilege PRIVILEGE

Mr. Robert C. Coates (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege affecting all hon. members of the house. Yesterday I posed the following question to the Prime Minister:
Did the right hon. gentleman state in the course of a press conference in Vancouver on September 17 that closure would be used if the flag committee did not come forward with a near unanimous decision?
To this question I received this emphatic reply from the Prime Minister:
No such statement was made.
I now have available to me the transcript of the Prime Minister's press conference at Vancouver on September 17, which on page 15 contains the following question and reply: If you do face the problem seriously of continued filibuster in your minority position, how long can a government tolerate it without going to the people to get a clear cut decision of the parliamentary majority and parliamentary reform?
To which the Prime Minister replied:
It is not essential to go to the people in order to stop a filibuster. There are rules for that purpose. They are used as a last resort, but they are there, and they have been kept there by the previous government, so the previous government must have felt it was unwise to take out the closure rule. It is still there, but I don't like to see legislation enacted by closure. It is much better to do it some other way.
As a result of this statement many newspapers across Canada informed their readers that the Prime Minister threatened closure if the flag committee did not reach a satisfactory decision. Yesterday I mentioned the Montreal Star, which on September 18 carried a headline reading "Closure if Necessary-Pearson".
The Prime Minister's reply to me is not in keeping with the facts, and places the flag committee in the same position as the Prime Minister placed the House of Commons with the threat of a general election if his flag design were not accepted. I consider the Prime Minister owes the house an apology for this statement in Vancouver, and the flag committee a categorical retraction of the threat of closure so they might be able to continue their most important task in the proper atmosphere.


Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, far from owing the house an apology the hon. gentleman, by the statement he has just made quoting from the 

verbatim record of what I did say, undoubtedly owes the house an apology for misrepresenting this statement.



MISS JEWETT


Miss Pauline Jewett (Northumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege affecting all members of the house, and in particular the members of the special committee on procedure and organization which is under Your Honour's chairmanship.
Yesterday a press release was issued by the New Democratic party dealing with that party's proposals for the reform of parliament. The committee on procedure and organization, which is a committee of this parliament, has been discussing the problem of the reform of parliament, and has long since agreed that it would try to come to an all party agreement on the proposals that it presented to parliament. Indeed, the representative of the New Democratic party on that committee was one of those who most strongly felt that, if possible, unanimity should be reached before our proposals were presented here.
I think it is an affront to this house, and in particular to the committee itself, that the party which had agreed there should, if possible, be an all party agreement before the committee's proposals for reform of this house were presented, should now break that agreement.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Pauline Jewett: It is an invitation to other party leaders now to do the same and it is, in effect, completely pulling the rug from under the committee on procedure and organization that has been set up for this purpose. It is a case of going outside this parliament to make these recommendations instead of bringing them here, which is the proper place for them.


Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: 
Mr.  R. Gordon L. Fairweather@Royal: want to endorse the point of privilege taken by the hon. member for Northumberland. The leader of the New Democratic party ignored the opportunity provided by a supply motion last Monday to present his views, and preferred to do so by means of a press conference. It is a matter of record that ten reports of the committee on procedure have been introduced into this house. It is also a matter of record, or it should be-and it is to those of us who serve on the committee- there has not been a protracted, wrangling debate in that committee.


Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):: Mr. Speaker, as a member of the special committee on procedure and organization, I am pleased to endorse the remarks made by the hon. member for Northumberland (Miss Jewett) about the line of action taken by the leader of the New Democratic party (Mr. Douglas) in this case.
Several of the suggestions made by the New Democratic party were made by members of the committee and several others were accepted by members of other parties.
That is how are being made public, on behalf of one political party, ideas expressed by members of the five parties in the House of Commons since the setting up of this special committee on procedure and organization.
Furthermore, Mr. Speaker,-and what seems to me most important of all-if the New Democratic party is really interested to see the committee achieve some results, I think the experience of the past few weeks has shown us that such results will not be obtained by airing our discussions on the public square, but by having instead some sort of unity within the committee itself. It would be much easier, then, to reach our objective and get results.
Question of Privilege
I feel that, through this publicity, the members of the New Democratic party have just violated two privileges of the house: first, they have taken as their own a study made by the five parties and, then, they have prevented the achievement of immediate results by bringing to the attention of the public, for their own benefit, the ideas of all.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The hon. member for Cariboo.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Bert Leboe (Cariboo):: All I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is that it does seem to me that when the chairman of a committee on rules and procedure belongs to a particular party, it is certainly cheap politics-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Bert Raymond Leboe: -and I do not think the people of Canada are being fooled one iota by the press release of the New Democratic party.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member speaks now he will close the debate.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you, Mr. Speaker; but I hope that will not be-


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
While the hon. member for Northumberland (Miss Jewett) rises on a question of privilege to protest against a statement made by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Douglas), you should like to see the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) bringing the debate to a close? It seems to me that it rests rather with the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam to set forth his views in this respect, unless the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre speaks on behalf of the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam.


Mr. Kindt:: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. The only reason the Chair recognized the hon. member

Question of Privilege
for Winnipeg North Centre was that he is a very active member of this particular committee.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Lambert:: That is nonsense.


Mr. Churchill:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, how far will this debate be extended; because there are other members who also have an interest in this important problem.


Mr. Fisher:: They certainly do.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the hon. member's point is well taken. Orders of the day.


Mr. Balcer:: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member for Three Rivers rising on orders of the day?


Léon Balcer: No, Mr. Speaker; I am rising on the question of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: A question of privilege?


Léon Balcer: The same question of privilege, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: We have had a spokesman from each party, and perhaps considerably more has been said than is necessary.


Léon Balcer: Mr. Speaker, it seems quite in order that I should raise this question at this stage of the proceedings. Here is my question of privilege. We have just heard a very harsh indictment against the leader of the New Democratic party by the hon. member for Northumberland (Miss Jewett) who protested as strongly as possible against the line of action taken by that party as regards the special committee on procedure and organization.
However, at the same time, the Prime Minister's office issued a news release entitled:
Prime Minister's statement about parliamentary reform.
I am happy to have Mr. T. C. Douglas' support with regard to the reform of parliamentary procedure, something which is long overdue. I urged that such a reform be made first as leader of the opposition and then as Prime Minister-
I hope that the views expressed by the N.D.P. will help the committee to continue its work. The government will gladly welcome the support and co-operation of members from all parties on that matter.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I wish to thank the hon. gentleman for putting that press communique on record in Hansard. I am grateful to him for that. Of course there are times when you have to

issue a statement to keep the record straight, and in this case we welcome the hon. gentleman and his party to the ranks of those who wish to reform parliament.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Unless there is a very important contribution to be made at this time it does seem to me that we have all agreed some measure of reform is necessary, and that we do not need to pursue the subject this afternoon. If the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre speaks the hon. member for Macleod has to be recognized, and I am afraid we would be here for a considerable length of time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Several of those who have spoken-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: It is now my duty and pleasure to declare that in my opinion there is no question of privilege. Orders of the day.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a question of privilege, several of those who have spoken in this house today-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Several of those who have spoken-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Howard Knowles: -have made reference to me by way of an attack.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sure the hon. gentleman will indicate his agreement with the necessity for reform by accepting the decision of the Chair.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a question of privilege-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member rising on a question of privilege?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, sir, I am.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the same question of privilege?


Stanley Howard Knowles: My question of privilege is that several members who have spoken have been permitted to make reference to me-


Some hon. Members:: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Oh, yes, several references were made to me by name, and I submit that in these circumstances I should be

allowed at least a minute to speak on this same question of privilege.


Mr. Speaker:: I am very sorry, but I did not hear the name of the hon. member mentioned. In any event, the decision of the Chair was that there was no question of privilege; therefore I intend to call orders of the day. The right hon. Leader of the Opposition.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Since your ruling is based on the fact that you did not hear members refer to me, may I say that I believe the hon. member for Royal did, the hon. member for Cariboo did, and so did other members.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: At any rate, all I want to do is thank hon. members for drawing attention to those who are trying to get these matters out for public discussion.


Some hon. Members:: Abuse of the rules.



LABOUR RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):: I am not rising on a spurious question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and ask him whether he has received communications, oral or written, to the effect that in the situation connected with the S.I.U. election there is grave danger that the results of this election will not represent the democratic desires of the members of that union.
Whether that be so or not, is it not about time that the board of maritime trustees were brought before a committee of parliament in order to give them an opportunity to answer an allegation that is being widely made, that Banks or some of his supporters still control the S.I.U.?


Hon. A. J. MacEachen (Minisier of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I have received no representations with regard to the S.I.U. elections. I do know there is a special advisory committee assisting the board of trustees in carrying out this election, on which committee sits a representative of the Department of Labour, of the S.I.U. and of the Canadian Labour Congress. We have no information that proper procedures have been neglected in the carrying out of this election.
With respect to the second part of the hon. gentleman's question, it is proposed to have
Inquiries of the Ministry the board of trustees come before a committee of the house at this session, during the fall. The exact time has not been determined, and I am not in a position to indicate any time in the absence of the house leader.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, this is another example of postponement. I suggest that these trustees be brought before a committee of this parliament-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


John George Diefenbaker: -before this election. If the minister has no information I can send him a couple of items which will provide him with information which would cause grave suspicion about the voting procedure which is taking place.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: supplementary question, which I had intended to ask of the Minister of Justice, but in his absence I will direct it to the Prime Minister. In view of allegations and suggestions that there may have been some corrupt practices in reference to the administration of law in the Banks case, would the Prime Minister consider setting up a royal commission to investigate the matter and to report why Banks is able to avoid and ignore the law of Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice has already dealt with this question, and at some length.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: A further supplementary question. Has the Prime Minister and his government anything to report as to the whereabouts of Banks, either in the United States or in Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker. I hope my hon. friend was not able to find him in Europe.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: Maybe the Prime Minister should look in the city of New York.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Ex-
8344	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry ternal Affairs have met today with Mr. Cabot Lodge, the former United States ambassador to South Viet Nam. I should like to ask the Prime Minister what commitments, if any, have been asked for from Canada by the United States representative, and I should also like to ask whether the Prime Minister will give the house his assurance that Canada will not make any contribution to the situation in South Viet Nam other than such contributions as we make through our membership in the international control commission which was set up by the 1954 Geneva agreement.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend the Secretary of State for External Affairs and I were privileged to have some very interesting and useful conversations with Mr. Cabot Lodge, who is a guest of the house in the gallery this afternoon.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Lodge was good enough to bring us up to date on the situation in Viet Nam as the United States government sees it, and we were very interested in this information. No commitments were asked for.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: A supplementary question to the Prime Minister. Is Canada making any contribution or giving any assistance in any shape or form at the present time?


Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister has just indicated, and as he said on another occasion, there is no question of any military commitment by Canada in South Viet Nam nor has any military assistance to that country been suggested either by Mr. Lodge or by anyone else. Canada is now providing non-military assistance in the amount of some $700,000 for 1964-65. This includes food, education and certain projects having to do with medical and hospital care. As I indicated yesterday, the government proposes to increase this non-military assistance to Viet Nam pursuant to the expanded program announced in this house last November.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: supplementary question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Who administers those Canadian funds? The minister could not possibly leave them in the hands of the corrupt regime which governs the country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am sure my hon. friend's loose language is not really based on careful reflection. The
[Mr. Douglas.)

funds are administered, of course, as a result of bilateral arrangements between the parties concerned, by the external aid office of Canada.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister. Do the Prime Minister and the government regard the intensive surveillance by the Russians of the present NATO exercises taking place in the north Atlantic as having any particular significance at this time, and what is the policy of the government in this regard?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, Mr. Speaker, I myself would not attach any particular significance to this fact. Such naval exercises have taken place in the past, and the exercises are going on on the high seas, which are free to the ships of all nations.



INQUIRY AS TO ALTERNATIVE TO FRIGATE CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Has a decision yet been reached concerning the construction of naval ships as an alternative to the general purpose frigates which were cancelled so many months ago? If not, when may we expect a decision in this respect, having regard to the urgent representations made by SACLANT in so far as Canada's commitments for the supply of ships?


Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the two parts of the question, if it can be called a question, are directly related. The government shipbuilding program is now under review by the defence staff following completion of a study which was undertaken some months ago. I hope it will not be too long before decisions can be taken. There has been no request for additional support for SACLANT, and I think my hon. friend is just referring to a speech made by SACLANT when he was visiting Halifax a few days ago.


Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. May I ask the minister of defence whether what is left of the Canadian navy

is taking part in the NATO exercises in the north Atlantic?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I have already answered that question, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps my hon. friend would consult Hansard.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. E. Pascoe (Moosa Jaw-Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour arising out of recent inquiries received from municipal officials in my constituency. On June 23 the minister stated that the winter works program initiated by the previous government would be continued but that there might be some modifications. Will there be modifications and, if so, can these changes be announced soon so that municipalities can be advised before making their winter works plans?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, there will be modifications in the winter works incentive program, and I announced the details of these changes during the discussion of my estimates on the Friday before Labour day.


James Ernest Pascoe: A supplementary question. Has any information gone out to the municipalities; because I have been receiving inquiries asking me what changes will be made.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Speaker, letters have gone out to the provincial premiers advising them of the terms of the winter works incentive program, as is the custom. The provinces usually advise the municipalities as to the terms.



REQUEST FOR REPLIES IN FRENCH TO QUESTIONS ON ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['I have received no such representations.']
Mr. Real Caouette (Villeneuve):: Mr. Speaker, last August 28 I put to the Minister of Labour question No. 1,820 on the order paper. My question was in good French.
I received a reply yesterday but it is exclusively in English, even though I need it in French for my constituents.
Could the minister tell us whether there are, within his department, people who are sufficiently conversant in French to answer us in French when we ask questions in that
Inquiries of the Ministry language? I should like to hear from the minister on that point.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there are excellent French speaking officers in the Department of Labour, I am glad to advise my hon. friend. I did make the answer in English, my language, and he asked the question in French, his language. However, I will attempt to co-operate with him and give him future answers in his language.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question?
As the same thing is happening in a number of departments I would like to ask the right hon. Prime Minister whether he could not ask his colleagues to answer members in the language in which questions are asked in order to assist the members.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that seems to me to be a reasonable suggestion.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Chapdelaine (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the right hon. Prime Minister.
Is it true that the Conservative party is bringing pressure to bear on the government or making representations so as to obtain a recess extending at least two weeks for parliament?
Should this be true, has the Prime Minister considered that such a recess would delay by that much the work of the committee on the Canadian flag and that we could find ourselves without a flag at Christmas time?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have received no such representations.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Eric A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The
8346	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry Montreal Star of September 22 has an editorial under the heading "Proper Use of Power", in regard to one of the Liberal members, and the following is stated-


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. I must interrupt the hon. member. I know of the editorial to which he refers, and I believe this question was dealt with by the Chair several weeks ago. I do not see any reason to change that ruling.


Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, this is a question of privilege which concerns all hon. members. I do not think it is in regard to the matter to which you refer.


Mr. Speaker:: May I ask the hon. member whether it refers to a particular member who was mentioned in that editorial?


Eric Alfred Winkler: In this particular instance, Mr. Speaker, it refers to myself. The editorial states in part:
He may not, for a variety of reasons, have much of a political future, but it should be perfectly clear to Mr. Winkler, the Liberal whip-
To correct any error or misapprehension in the mind of any reader of this valuable paper, I trust they will take note. While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Just to finish with one matter at a time, has the hon. member seen the latest editorial, or the note on the editorial page of today's Montreal Star, where he is again mentioned?


Eric Alfred Winkler: No, I have not, Mr. Speaker, and I may have to rise again at a later time.



ROYAL VISIT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Eric Alfred Winkler: Mr. Speaker, I should like now to ask the Prime Minister whether he can clarify the arrangements that are being made for Her Majesty's visit to the capital on October 12, so that all hon. members may make arrangements accordingly.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the details regarding the royal visit were made public at one o'clock today, and I believe they have been sent to every member of the house. It was not possible to arrange for Her Majesty to address the House of Commons and the Senate, but it will be


possible for members to meet Her Majesty at a reception on that morning.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS MEMBERSHIP OF ECONOMIC COUNCIL   PERMANENT SECRETARIAT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Heward Grafftey (Brome-Missisquoi):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Forestry a question?
After the statement the minister made in Montreal yesterday I should like to know whether he is of the opinion that the Economic Council of Canada Act should be amended in order to provide for a direct provincial representation and participation in the activity of that body?


Hon. Maurice Sauve (Minister of Forestry):: Mr. Speaker, I spoke about the Economic Council of Canada Act incidentally, but I did not raise that problem.


William Heward Grafftey: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a
supplementary question?
Will the minister exert pressure on his government with a view to establishing a permanent secretariat on federal-provincial relations at the level of heads of government, based on the principle of the Canadian council of ministers of resources? The minister will agree with me that this matter is very important in view of the inadequacy of means of consultation between Ottawa and the provinces for a better planning of the Canadian economy.


Maurice Sauvé: I think that the question concerns the Prime Minister.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Ian Watson (Chaieauguay-Hunlingdon-Laprairie):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister received a request from the province of Quebec with regard to federal participation in a program of freight assistance for forage transport to drought stricken counties in western and southwestern Quebec, including the counties of Chateauguay-Huntingdon and Laprairie? If the minister has received such a request, can he assure the house that the Canadian government will render the fullest possible assistance?


Hon. Harry W. Hays (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes to both questions.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Will the minister advise the house whether the regulations have now been altered to allow amnesty in respect of Chinese ship deserters and individuals with forged passports? I ask this question in view of a speech recently made by the Postmaster General to the Chinese benevolent association in Vancouver.


Hon. Rene Tremblay (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not modified the amnesty program concerning Chinese.



TORONTO


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. N. Ormislon (Melville):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. On August 28 the minister replied to my question of August 25 regarding Mr. Robert Ameln and Mr. George Hogan, so called official union negotiators from the United States, and suggested that these men were here on a temporary basis. Since their arrival in Toronto there have been many acts of violence of increasing seriousness, and I should like to know whether the minister is giving consideration to terminating what he called the "temporary exercise of their respective callings".


René Tremblay: Mr. Speaker, I will be quite ready to make an inquiry.


James Norris Ormiston: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that in a recent edition of Printers' Story, a trade publication, Mr. Robert Ameln is described as a strike director and Mr. George Hogan as his assistant, would the declaration of such occupations qualify these men for legal admission and, if not, is the matter being reconsidered?


René Tremblay: I will make complete inquiries.
Inquiries of the Ministry CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION



INQUIRY AS TO SHOWING OF FILM ON LIBERAL PARTY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Marcel Lessard (Lake St. John):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State?
Would the Secretary of State recommend to the C.B.C. to show on its network the Liberal federation's movie entitled "Youth Year Zero" so that it may continue in this way to publicize the Liberal party to which that crown corporation seems to have dedicated itself?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is a real question. However, I shall be pleased to refer the substance of the question of the hon. member to the C.B.C.


Marcel Lessard: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
Does the Secretary of State not think that this film might be a good substitute for the one entitled "Mr. Pearson"?


Maurice Lamontagne: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen either.



ALLOCATION OF FREE TIME TO POLITICAL PARTIES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, this is a question I first put to the Prime Minister a week or so ago, and I wonder whether he or the Secretary of State now has an answer. Will the C.B.C. make time available to the leaders of the three smaller parties on national television, similar or comparable to the time recently made available as extra time to the leaders of the two larger parties?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that they do not have any plans for further special programs on the business of the house along the lines of those to which my hon. friend has just referred.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has anyone conveyed to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that it is supported by all the taxpayers of Canada, and is not the
8348	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry private preserve of the Liberal and Tory
parties?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I am sure my hon. friend, who has such great interest in the integrity and independence of the C.B.C., would not wish the government to exert any pressure on the C.B.C. in regard to programming of this kind.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether it has been conveyed to the C.B.C. that the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam said there should be a moratorium on the flag discussion?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I have a supplementary question. The two broadcasting questions were not confined to a discussion on the flag.


An hon. Member:: That is what you asked for.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is not what we are asking for. We are asking for equal time. Apparently the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has decided to do otherwise, and in this way shows favouritism, which in turn will have an adverse effect on public opinion in respect of the C.B.C.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, in respect of that question, I noticed last night that the C.B.C. quite rightly gave my hon. friend some time to tell the people of Canada about his plans for reforming parliament. I was tempted to phone the C.B.C. to find out whether the Prime Minister could get equal time in respect of this important subject, but I resisted that temptation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I should like to support the Prime Minister, and urge that he be given time on the C.B.C. tonight to give this press statement he has issued further publicity; also that equal time be given to the hon. member for Northumberland to protest the remarks contained in the Prime Minister's statement.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a supplementary question to the Prime Minister and ask him whether his government recognizes the fact that there is some discrimination among the various political parties in Canada, since some parties are allowed to take part in some programs, while others are not?
Inasmuch as the government is responsible for the C.B.C., could the Prime Minister put
(Mr. Douglas.]

pressure on the corporation to enable all political parties to be placed on the same footing in this regard?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I do not see
how we could ask the C.B.C., let alone make the C.B.C., to put all political parties on the same footing when the people of Canada did not put them on the same footing.


Mr. Speaker:: The Postmaster General. [Translation]


Gilles Grégoire: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please. One at a time. Time is very short. The Postmaster General.


Gilles Grégoire: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry. The Postmaster General.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the right hon. Prime Minister a supplementary question relating to the C.B.C.
The Prime Minister stated a short while ago that the Canadian people did not place all political parties on the same footing. We do not contest this statement, but when the C.B.C. submits its budget to the house, we are nevertheless the ones who examine its expenses and I ask the Prime Minister for his personal intervention with the C.B.C. to have all political parties treated equally by that public corporation. The Prime Minister is doubtlessly capable of obtaining a fair treatment for the various parties represented in the house.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I hope the C.B.C. will treat all parties equitably in these matters, and I will be glad to convey to the C.B.C. my hon. friend's observations, in which I think we all concur.



SHOWING OF FILM ON FREDERICTON CONFERENCE ON NATIONAL GOALS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, yesterday

the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka expressed interest in the date on which the film of a certain conference on Canadian goals would be broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I am informed by the C.B.C. that this program will be telecast on the English network on Thursday, September 24, 1964, at 8.30 p.m. eastern daylight time.



TAPE RECORDING OF QUEEN'S ACTIVITIES TO FOLLOW LIVE BASEBALL TELECAST

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John B. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet may I reply to a question which was asked on Monday last by the hon. member for York-Humber concerning the televising of a certain portion of Her Majesty's visit to Canada.
I am informed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that the corporation considers the royal visit to be of greater importance than the world series. That is why the corporation is providing extensive coverage of the visit on radio and television in both languages, most of it live, including Her Majesty's visit to the Quebec legislature on the morning of Saturday, October 10.
In the case of the afternoon of October 10 there is no question that, because both events occur at approximately the same time, the corporation was faced with a problem. If it were not for the existence of modern television and radio recording equipment it is obvious that the corporation would have cancelled the baseball broadcast.
However, because this equipment is available the C.B.C. can provide coverage of Her Majesty's visit to the Quebec citadel and of the world's series game for Canadians who want to see both these events.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. R. Nicholson (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to supplement my answer to a question put on August 20 by the hon. member for Greenwood. While I was in Halifax on September 21 and 22 for discussions, with provincial and municipal officials and other interested citizens, on the implementation of the recent amendments to the National Housing Act, I met, as was suggested by the hon. member for Greenwood and other members of the house, with Rear Admiral Brock and several of his staff to consider naval hous-
Inquiries of the Ministry ing problems in the greater Halifax area. The discussion was frank and helpful, and resulted in the formation of a committee comprising representatives of the Atlantic command, Royal Canadian Navy, and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to examine the situation in detail and report its findings and recommendations to the government as soon as possible.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gilles Grégoire: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and I think it is the first time I rise on such a question since the provisional amendment of the rules. Moreover, I am of the opinion that my question of privilege is quite in order and deals with the members' rights in the house.
The Postmaster General has just answered a question that had no relation at all to the supplementary questions we intended to put.
I have asked only one supplementary question respecting the C.B.C., while you allowed the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Douglas) to direct three questions.
Moreover, sometimes the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) is allowed three supplementary questions on the same subject. I do not object to that, but in my opinion the members sitting in this corner of the house should be given the same rights as any other members of the opposition, particularly when we want to ask supplementary questions concerning important fields such as the one we have just been discussing.
It seems to me that we ought to be entitled to ask our supplementary questions, and I strongly object to the attitude you have adopted in not allowing us to ask questions, even letting someone change the subject.


Mr. Speaker:: I should like to point out that on Wednesday afternoon we have a period of half an hour for questions, and the Chair does its best to distribute the time available among all parties in the house. To my knowledge the member has asked at least two questions this afternoon, and it does seem to me that when I have a list of ten other members who wish to ask one question each, they are entitled to be heard first. The hon. member for Port Arthur.

Inquiries of the Ministry BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State arising out of information that the board of broadcast governors has approved the transfer of the Windsor radio station from the general ownership of Royce Frith to that of Geoff Stirling. In view of the fact that several members of parliament, including myself and the hon. member for Essex South, I believe, made representations to the board of broadcast governors on this matter, I wonder whether the Secretary of State could get for the house, because others members are interested too, a full statement as to why the board of broadcast governors approved this transfer, beyond the normal paragraph issued in their press release.


Maurice Lamontagne: I will be pleased to see what I can do to meet the request of the hon. member.



CROWN ASSETS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Industry. Is he now aware that the R.C.A.F. station at Edgar has been closed, and has he anything to report with regard to this station?


Charles Mills (Bud) Drury: Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of the great interest that the hon. member has taken in the question of the R.C.A.F. station at Edgar, and I am glad to be able to tell him that when the station ceased to be used by the R.C.A.F. the Ontario government considered the possibility of making use of it, and has now decided to take it over for the establishment of an institution to look after retarded children.



NEGOTIATIONS RESPECTING IMPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Mitchell Sharp (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member for Nicolet-Yamaska asked me whether I knew that certain concerns were
[Mr. Speaker.)

now entering into preliminary negotiations with a view to importing butter into Canada. I am not aware that any particular negotiations are being carried on with regard to the import of butter into Canada. Since butter is under import control, any intention to import must necessarily be brought to the attention of the department.

The house in committee of supply-Mr. Lamoureux in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, including grants and contributions as detailed in estimates, $1,159,000.
Hon. H. J. Robichaud (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Chairman, it has been customary for the Minister of Fisheries, in introducing the estimates of his department, to give a brief resume of the state of Canada's fishing industry and of the fisheries resources, and to outline the current activities of the department. By doing this now, I may be answering in advance some of the questions which hon. members may have in mind. If there are points which I do not make sufficiently clear, I shall be glad to explain them in detail when we are considering the estimates of the department item by item.
Fishing is a risky and hazardous calling. Every year it takes its toll of lives. During the past year, while there has been no major tragedy, there have been isolated instances of men lost at sea or falling victim to the mishaps which are all too common in the lives of those whose work takes them to sea. I am sure every member of this house wiU join me in paying tribute to Canada's fishermen and their families. These are the people upon whose strength and skill the entire industry is built and, as you will note in the report which follows, it is a primary concern of the Department of Fisheries to see that they are employed as safely and profitably as possible.
I should like to make a few remarks about the up to date status of the fishing industry from an economic point of view. With the exception of the codfish catch from the trap fishery of Newfoundland, the 1964 season has been generally satisfactory. The first indication came with early fishing for spring salmon in British Columbia which yielded 4.9 million pounds during the first six months of 1964, compared with 3.6 million pounds for the same period in 1963. For the first seven months of this year, landings of all species by commercial fishermen on both coasts

totalled 1.2 billion pounds or 30 million pounds more than the landings in the first seven months of last year. This increase was registered despite a decline in the cod catch of 48 million pounds.
The value of the commercial catch is larger so far this year than the increase in landings would suggest. The increase in value to the end of July was about 20 per cent against 2 per cent increase in the volume of landings. This is accounted for principally by a higher proportion of the more valuable species in the total catch. In British Columbia, salmon landings are up by 34 million pounds, and in the Atlantic provinces there have been significant increases in the landings of haddock, small flat fish, swordfish and scallops. The figures just released yesterday for the month of August were most encouraging and show a further trend toward a record year for Canada's fisheries both in quantity and in value.
This expansion in output at the primary level of the industry occurred without any softening of dockside prices. In fact, in some cases the price level moved up over the record level set a year ago. The most spectacular price rise has taken place in the first sale of Newfoundland salted codfish. The short supply resulting from the disappointing trap fishery earlier in the season and competition from Newfoundland freezing plants has been reinforced by strong demands from the major markets. The result has been that Newfoundland fishermen are now getting the highest prices on record, especially for fish in the salt bulk form. If present prices hold through the balance of the season they may offset, on the over-all value of salted fish, the effect of the smaller production. An indication of the situation in the markets comes from the report that Norway, a traditional net exporter of salted fish, is purchasing a substantial quantity of salt bulk fish from Newfoundland. I still express the hope that a better late fall fishery in Newfoundland will bring the cod landings in that province close to normal.
In the maritime provinces the expansion in production and quality of swordfish and tuna, the last just a two year old industry, continues. I want to state here that tremendous improvement in the tuna fishery and processing is expected within the next few months, particularly in the southern section of New Brunswick. I want to take this opportunity to commend those who have been pioneers in this new fishery, Captains Matthews and Savage from Campobello island.
Supply-Fisheries
I should like also to mention here Captain Norman Ryall from the west coast, who has shown a special interest in the development of the tuna industry, and for whom the largest fishing boat ever built in North America will be launched in a few weeks time at one of the shipyards at Levis, Quebec.
The United States is the predominant market for these special species. This year the value of scallop landings is up by $900,000 and swordfish by $600,000 over the last season. The average price to the fisherman for these species in the first seven months of this year has been 42 cents per pound for scallops and 31 cents per pound for swordfish, both up slightly from 1963.
In British Columbia the good catches of spring salmon, to which I referred earlier, were followed by unexpectedly large catches of sockeye, which is the most valuable of the British Columbia salmon. Landings of this species during the current season were 17 million pounds, an increase of 10 million pounds over the disappointing catch of last year. By early September the sockeye pack stood at over 343,000 cases-almost double the pack of the same period of 1963. The sockeye run on the Skeena river was well above the earlier expectations which suggested that 300,000 of these fish might be taken. It now appears that the actual catch may be 2J times that number. Most of the major runs are expected to surpass the preseason forecasts.
The halibut catch, however, has been disappointing especially from area 2, but prices have firmed up considerably from last year. Mediums have been quoted at 27 to 28 cents a pound, which is about five cents higher than last year's level. Herring landings during the January-July period were below last year by about 13 million pounds, but higher prices maintained the value of the catch. The summer herring operation has yielded good results so far. Catches of the minor species, including the cods and soles, continue to expand and reached a total of 32 million pounds by the end of July, an increase over 1963 of 5 million pounds.
The quantity of fishery products exported in any January-July period include a large proportion of the production of the previous year with the exception, of course, of items sold alive or chilled. For this reason, export data at mid-year are not closely related to the level of production data covering the prior six months. The value of exports to the end of June, however, indicates a continuing strong demand for fishery products from this

Supply-Fisheries
country. For all products this figure for the six months period was $88 million, compared with $72 million to the end of June 1963. The United States continues to be the largest customer in this field and Canadian exporters sold $58 million worth out of the $88 million total to markets in the United States.
The demand for groundfish products continued without abatement. In the first six months of 1964 exports of fillets and blocks totalled 61 million pounds or about 60 per cent of United States imports of these commodities from all countries and an increase of 14 million pounds over the volume imported from Canada during the first six months of 1963. Iceland continues as a strong competitor in the field and is now supplying the United States with about 30 per cent of its import requirements. It is therefore most imperative that our fishermen as well as our processors exercise greater care and better attention in producing the best quality product possible.
The strong demand for Canadian fishery products, and especially that associated with the growing population on this continent, has been accompanied by firm or rising prices. This situation has been apparent for several years and the industry is reacting to it in significant development and expansion. This is particularly true on the Atlantic coast where heretofore capital formation from earnings within the industry was not the rule. The construction of the large plant at Lunenburg and the plans for development at Canso, Georgetown and Summerside are evidence of the optimism pervading the industry. The Atlantic fleet now includes 92 trawlers, most of which are modem and efficient. Five years ago this fleet comprised 53 vessels. This is an increase of 80 per cent, and most of the 53 were used ships which had been purchased from the United Kingdom and the United States. The scallop fleet now contains about 35 vessels over 75 feet in length, capable of exploiting distant beds and landing scallops of high quality. Five years ago there were only nine scallop vessels of this size on the Atlantic coast. Fishermen, alone or in partnerships, are acquiring vessels in the 45 to 65 foot class which fish near and middle distance waters. They are equipped with modern fish location and catching gear, and their owners are actively experimenting with new types of gear and new methods of fishing. Nearly 500 of these vessels have been purchased by fishermen with financial assistance provided by the Department of Fisheries in recent years.
[Mr. Robichaud.l
Because of the importance of the subject and the wide interest in it, the matter of territorial limits merits some mention at this time. The Territorial Sea and Fishing Zone Act, proclaimed on July 23, established a 12 mile fishing zone around the coasts of Canada. This means an additional nine mile fishing zone has been added to the existing territorial sea limit of three miles. The act also authorized the governor in council to establish straight base lines from which the territorial sea could be measured. Until such time as the straight base lines are established, the additional nine mile fishing zone is to be measured from the existing territorial sea limits.
While taking this unilateral step of establishing the new fishing zone and proceeding to the establishment of straight base lines, the government initiated discussions with a number of friendly countries which have been fishing off our coasts, some of them for many centuries, to see how their interests might be affected.
We are now on the second round of these discussions with eight countries and hope that they may be concluded soon, at which time the government intends to proceed with the establishment of the new base lines. I wish I were in a position to give the house more details of the second phase of these negotiations, but I am confident that I will have the co-operation of all hon. members in recognizing that such details cannot be made available while negotiations of this nature are under way.
On the high seas, where fishing rights are not a question, there is still need for consultation and agreement with other countries for the protection of the resource itself. This calls for a joint management program entailing a great deal of research and some long range planning. For this reason a number of international fisheries commissions have come into being, and Canada is represented on seven. Four of them are established under multilateral agreements, and deal with the fisheries of the northwest Atlantic ocean, the fisheries of the north Pacific, the stocks of fur seals and of whales. The other three agreements under which joint commissions operate are between Canada and the United States and deal with Pacific sockeye and pink salmon of the Fraser river system, the halibut of the north Pacific ocean, and the fisheries of the great lakes.
In connection with one of the foregoing, the international convention for the high seas fisheries of the north Pacific ocean, we are

even now engaged here in Ottawa on a third round of talks between the three countries involved-Canada, Japan and the United States. The purpose of these talks, which are being conducted in a hopeful and cooperative atmosphere, is to find a better basis for resolving different views as a result of the experience gained during the 11 years the convention has been in operation. A new draft convention is being considered. Again, Mr. Chairman, I wish I were in a position to give more details of the negotiations which are now taking place here in Ottawa, but it would be improper for me to do so at this time.
I hope that at the conclusion of these negotiations I will be in a position to make a statement to the house. As I have said before, after an agreement is reached-and I have confidence that an agreement can be reached-I will refer to the standing committee on marine and fisheries the terms of this agreement before ratification.
I have already mentioned in this house our national fisheries development program the basis of which was set up at a federal-provincial conference on fisheries development which I convened in Ottawa last January. I explained, too, that this was also a forum for the views of industry as well as of government, since briefs were received at that time from the Fisheries Council of Canada and from fishermen's representatives from various areas.
The progress made as a result of this conference is quite heartening, and I think this is the proper time and place to report on it. A number of projects are now well under way as co-operative efforts between federal and provincial administrations. These include the following:
1.	The development and demonstration of trawls suitable for rough bottom, so that our Canadian fishermen can exploit grounds now being actively fished by foreign vessels.
2.	The modification of small boats for inshore dragging and introduction of Japanese-type mechanical squid jigging equipment- this is in the Newfoundland area.
3.	Demonstration of the construction and operation of the western or Pacific trawl in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick waters.
4.	The charter of a Norwegian whaling vessel, with her crew, to learn and to demonstrate the possibilities of reviving the whaling industry on the Atlantic coast.
5.	The improvement of trawling operations for ground-fish off the Pacific coast.
Supply-Fisheries
6.	A survey is being made of the Irish moss resources in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and a few days ago I made the announcement that a site had been selected on Prince Edward Island for the construction, with assistance from the Atlantic development board, of an Irish moss drying plant.
7.	The exploration of a new scallop bed off Shippegan gully.
8.	Experimental and development work in Quebec on fish-finding gear towed by helicopter.
9.	The development and introduction of improved lobster processing line techniques in Quebec plants, and
10.	Work in collaboration with ARDA on a project to improve the inshore fishery in northeastern Newfoundland.
During the conference it became obvious that there was a need for regional federal-provincial committees similar in concept to the federal-provincial Atlantic fisheries committee which was established in 1958 to coordinate programs for fisheries development, and the federal-provincial committee for Ontario fisheries. Consequently we now have a federal-provincial committee for British Columbia fisheries and a federal-provincial prairie fisheries committee. All these federal-provincial regional committees are of inestimable value in that they constitute formal consultative bodies which can discuss and deal with questions of common interest such as marketing, research and fisheries management generally. A sport fishery advisory committee has also been established in British Columbia.
Agreement has been reached to include officials of the departments of northern affairs and citizenship and immigration on the appropriate committees when subjects affecting Northwest Territories development are to be discussed.
Restriction of entry into the lobster fishery has been considered at regional federal-provincial meetings; so has the subject of limitation of entry into the Pacific salmon fisheries, and there have been discussions on fish farming, in particular, with respect to commercial trout farms. A good deal of background material on this subject has been prepared and these matters are under active consideration.
The control of pollution of our waters remains a subject of vital interest and much information has been collected. The fisheries research board has been in consultation with the national research council concerning the establishment of an intergovernmental committee on pollution to ensure the availability

Supply-Fisheries
of complete information. It is hoped that work on salt-water pollution in the Atlantic region can be started and that the work already carried out on the Pacific coast can be strengthened.
Discussions have taken place with the Department of Labour and with provincial authorities on vocational training and education for fishermen, and my department is creating an educational unit to co-ordinate activities in this connection.
Then again, as a result of recommendations made during the federal-provincial conference, a fisheries-related approach to improvements in harbour works has been discussed with the Department of Public Works and the Atlantic development board. Discussions have also taken place with the Department of Finance concerning improvements to the Fisheries Improvement Loans Act. The provincial authorities and the industry are being asked for their views concerning credit facilities for fishermen and possible inadequacies in the existing legislation.
In addition to the programs already mentioned, many other industrial development projects are under way. Powered gill-net haulers are being introduced, synthetic cod gill-nets are being tested in areas where they have not yet been used, and we are experimenting with synthetic materials for cod trap construction. We are also working on a prototype of a mechanized gillnet boat capable of multipurpose fishing operations, and we have introduced porbeagle shark fishing gear and techniques in the Atlantic provinces.
Modern methods of seining herring in western and southern Newfoundland also are being demonstrated to ascertain the commercial potential of such operations in those areas. New techniques in salt fish drying, using high speed equipment developed in the department, are being demonstrated on a commercial scale for the benefit of industry, and we are producing, on a pilot plant basis, commercially acceptable instant fish-potato flakes.
We are working on a design of a deep sea stern ramp trawler to meet the specific Canadian requirements for ground-fish trawling operations and are experimenting with an electrified trawl.
In Nova Scotia we are studying the distribution and abundance of herring, whiting, argentines and sandlaunce, which are species of small fish not yet exploited by Canadian fishermen. The object is to develop offshore trawling gear and techniques so that this

situation may be remedied. Scottish methods of Danish seining are being tested to increase the efficiency of this technique, and we are hoping to develop a distant water tuna fishery, using large seine boats.
A new and promising design for a plastic lobster trap is being tried out on a commercial scale in Prince Edward Island, where we also hope to encourage offshore herring seining methods, like those used in Iceland, in order to meet European orders for frozen herring. We are aware of the great potentialities of fishing for pelagic fish in the gulf of St. Lawrence and we are prepared to meet this challenge. Crab fishing operations are under way in the Northumberland strait, and we are hoping that a crab fishery can be developed around the Magdalen and Anticosti islands. We anticipate good results from a manually operated hydraulic clam digger developed by the fisheries research board for clam beds in the maritimes.
In British Columbia one of our aims is to diversify fishing operations off the Pacific coast by the introduction of better trawling operations for groundfish, and we are working on an improved refrigeration system for use in the halibut fishery in distant areas.
The foregoing are just some of the many projects by which the department hopes to aid all segments of the fishing industry in all areas by increasing the efficiency of the fleets, the gear and the techniques.
Significant advances have been made by industry in providing facilities to increase their processing capacity and to expand the variety of fish and shellfish products available to an increasingly quality conscious public. The department's program for the inspection of fish plants and fishery products to ensure the production of good quality fish under acceptable sanitary conditions will receive added impetus with the passing of regulations providing for the compulsory registration of fresh and frozen fish plants effective April 1, 1965. This will involve assessment of construction, equipment and processing procedures in some 260 plants across Canada. Initial registration will be granted when a plant meets specified minimum requirements in these categories. The eventual success of the program will depend upon active enforcement of the requirements through frequent plant visits by a well trained inspection staff.
Complementary to the development program for improved product quality at the processing level has been the department's work in the fields of fish boat inspection and

dockside grading. As an outcome of the federal-provincial conference on fisheries development, which pointed to the need for improvement in the quality of fish as landed, more emphasis has been placed on these aspects of inspection. Regulations are being developed for adequate sanitation and handling methods on fishing boats. Educational material is being prepared for the assistance of fishermen in handling and caring for their catch, and also for those handling fish at the retail level.
The department's laboratories are responsible for the inspection of domestic and imported canned fish; experimental work on the development of new and improved standards for canned and other types of fish; shellfish toxicity control programs; the bacteriological control of fresh and frozen shellfish plants and the purity of plant water supplies. These services are provided by permanent or mobile laboratories as the need dictates. In this connection it is proposed to replace the mobile laboratory facilities in northern New Brunswick with a permanent laboratory. We hope that this new laboratory which will be established at Shippegan in the centre of a 35 to 40 million pound yearly production will be in operation for the 1965 season.
Unsatisfactory water supplies for processing operations have been a major factor in a number of plants being unable to attain the Canadian government specifications board standards for approved plants, and this will undoubtedly be a factor in the plant certification program. Water supplies received attention in a number of briefs presented to the federal-provincial conference and it is encouraging to note that the Atlantic development board has taken an active interest in the matter of plant water supplies. Survey data, which may lead to the development of projects aimed at improving water supplies, are presently being reviewed. The department's laboratories will continue, and expand where necessary, participation in these surveys.
You will note that the expenditures for conservation and development of the fisheries resources are mainly to provide for the usual supply, maintenance and replacements in our protection organization, which is naturally widespread, as well as to continue and to expand the fish culture programs on both coasts and in the freshwater areas. These programs are increasingly important because fishing pressure, both commercial and for sport, becomes stronger every year. I think that most hon. members are aware that scien-20220-529
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tific and engineering skills are vital to proper resource management, and I can say confidently that fish culture development in Canada is as advanced as any in the world; in fact, methods we have developed, such as the building of successful artificial spawning channels, are copied in other countries.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Lachance):: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the minister but his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: Carry on.


Georges-C. Lachance: Does the committee consent to the minister's continuing?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank hon. members for allowing me to complete my remarks; I shall not be much longer.
I have mentioned the education of fishermen, but we also have another educational program which extends right across the country, directed at consumers. The object, quite simply, is to get Canadians to eat more fishery products in the home, in restaurants and hotels and in institutions. Departmental home economists work out of test kitchens in the major centres, giving demonstrations of fish cookery and convincing more and more people of the value of fish as food. As a result of these demonstrations and by the use of various kinds of publicity, we distribute thousands of pieces of consumer literature every year, and the highly successful "Canadian Fish Cook Book" is recognized as a final authority-indeed, a United States publisher is even now inquiring about publication rights in that country. Film and filmstrips, produced for the department by the national film board, are widely circulated and in several instances have won international awards for excellence. Departmental publications, as well as displays and exhibits at conventions and meetings where fish is a relevant topic, are also used in our consumer educational program. Other printed or filmed educational material is produced directly for the benefit of the industry and the fishermen themselves.
As I stated at the beginning of this review, conditions in the fishing industry in 1964 have been encouraging. Prices generally have been satisfactory. However, price support was necessary to relieve a 1963 surplus production of sauger in the prairie provinces, where markets were weakened by a temporary reduction in the demand for

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smoked fish. Assistance also was given by the fisheries prices support board to expand the markets for pickled herring, mackerel and alewives, following a curtailment of shipments during 1962 and 1963 due to political and economic difficulties in some of the Caribbean markets for these products.
The Newfoundland bait service is continuing its program of expansion and modernization. A new vessel, the C.G.S. Arctica was commissioned in July, has a larger capacity and greater storage space than its predecessor, and will provide bait service to many isolated communities in Newfoundland. In addition, two new trucks have been added to our facilities so that we can take advantage of the expanding highway network in the province. We are also making the most out of this year's run of squid so that we should be able to meet all the bait requirements of the coming year. In fact, instructions were recently issued to purchase an additional two million pounds of squid for storage for next year's bait requirements in Newfoundland, in addition to quantities of herring and capelin already in storage.
The department's fishermen's indemnity plan-which provides low cost insurance for small fishing vessels-continues to expand. At the present time more than 6,800 vessels, valued at about $25 million, are covered by this insurance scheme. We have initiated a study of the possibilities of extending the indemnity plan to the inland fisheries, as well as extending the scope of the operations to include fixed fishing gear and shore installations. It is expected that this study should be completed before the end of the year.
The scientific investigations which are vital to successful management of the fisheries are carried out by the fisheries research board of Canada, which is actively engaged in studies of aquatic animals in the three oceans that touch Canadian shores and in several of Canada's many lakes.
An appreciable amount of research is directed to meeting requirements of a number of international fisheries commissions. Investigations are carried out on fisheries technology aimed at improving the quality of fisheries products.
Among the highlights of the current year are the following:	20 authentic returns
of pink salmon have occurred to date in St. Mary's bay, Newfoundland, from 2.5 million eggs taken in British Columbia and transplanted in North Harbour river, Newfoundland in 1962. This number may seem small to
IMr. Robichaud.]
many of us, but I want to assure hon. members that it is quite significant to the scientists of the fisheries research board who are proceeding with this program. In fact, larger planting involving 10 million eggs is planned for this fall.
Progress has been made in studying the survival of young Pacific salmon in the sea with a view to predicting the abundance of major salmon runs. The important Atlantic fishing grounds were surveyed and valuable information obtained on the condition of various stocks of fish. The behaviour of fish is being studied as a basis for improving the design of fishing gear. Greenland cod have been found in moderate abundance in western coastal Arctic waters. The substance responsible for causing off-odours in Labrador cod fillets has been identified. Significant progress has been made in devising pumping equipment for unloading fish such as salmon. The process for preparing fish protein concentrate has been modified to permit use of a wider variety of fish.
Seventeen new research projects have arisen from deliberations at last January's federal-provincial fisheries development conference. On the Atlantic coast the main research emphasis will be on utilization of underexploited species-capelin, herring, sharks, tuna, swordfish, whiting, argentines, and others. Further work is also planned on lobsters, particularly on the prevention of losses in holding pounds, and intensive work is under way on various aspects of the processing of Newfoundland cod. On the Pacific coast, major efforts will be directed to studies of coho and chinook salmon in relation to sport and commercial fishing conflicts, and on increasing sockeye salmon production on the Skeena river.
Biological aspects of oceanographic research are being expanded to complement the growing program in physical oceanography by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. The board is playing a leading role in the establishment of an oceanographic information service which will provide background for fisheries forecasting.
A new research vessel, the E. E. Prince will be constructed to work out of the biological station at St. Andrews, New Brunswick. Construction of a new laboratory to house the Arctic biological station is proceeding at Ste Anne de Bellevue, near Montreal, and occupancy is expected in mid-1965. Plans are being made for extension of the main building of the biological station at Nanaimo, British Columbia.

I have tried in this review to cover the present situation of the fishing industry and to outline the work being carried out by my department. No doubt further questions will occur to hon. members as the items are considered, at which time I shall be happy to answer them.
Mr. Chairman, before resuming my seat I should like to repeat what I said yesterday in reply to a question regarding the killing of seals. This is an important matter to which reference has been made on several occasions during this present session and in respect of which there is general interest throughout this country. My department has received close to 2,000 letters concerning the seal operations. As I said yesterday, it is our intention to amend the regulations in this regard. A meeting was held on May 19 in Moncton with representatives of the industry, a number of fishermen and a representative of the humane society. The draft amendments have now been prepared and a second meeting will take place here in Ottawa on October 1. We intend to discuss with those parties concerned, and who have a special interest in this operation, the amendment we have in mind, and I am confident that the amendments finally introduced will meet most of the problems which have been referred to us in recent months.
In closing, I want to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation to the personnel of my department, involving approximately 225 employees at headquarters here in Ottawa and some 2,000 in the field from Newfoundland to British Columbia. All are dedicated public servants, conscious of their responsibilities, and anxious to devote their knowledge, time and energies for the betterment of individual fishermen as well as of all those interested in this vital industry.


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Mr. Chairman, 1 know the committee is grateful to the minister for his review of the activities of the fishing industry in Canada during this past year and for his review of the Department of Fisheries. It is not the intention of the official opposition to engage in a prolonged debate, at least on the first item of these estimates, in view of the fact the fiscal year is now well spent, and in addition, in view of the important legislation dealing with fisheries generally that has been placed before parliament this session. That is not to say we will not be critically and objectively, I hope, looking at some of the various items in this department's estimates as they are called one by one.
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I am grateful to the minister for pointing out the evident growth of the fishing industry in Canada during the past year. This is something from which both he and I, in common with many thousands of Canadians, can take great satisfaction. I think in all modesty both he and I can, along with 2,000 or more devoted civil servants in the Department of Fisheries, deserve some of the credit. However, this is a phenomenon which is bound to occur as world populations increase, and especially as the total population of North America rapidly increases, because there is bound to be a greater demand put on sea resources, as far as the production of high protein foods is concerned.
I have noted that in total, as far as these estimates are concerned, there is an increase of $602,500 in salaries and civilian allowances over the previous fiscal year, and the total increase in the department's estimates is something like $395,000. So, apart from the increase in wages, which I presume is due mostly to salary raises rather than an increase in staff, there has been a slight net decrease in the main estimates of the Department of Fisheries. As has been said by members of this committee in commenting on these estimates in previous years, I think this is one department where there should be a continuous growth or at least some growth in expenditure, because many additional things have been required in the development of the fishing industry over the years and many things can be thought of that would be beneficial if we had the money to spend on them. Many of these were discussed at the federal-provincial conference on fisheries. The conference in itself is no doubt beneficial because it accelerates and broadens the scheme of co-operation with the provinces that has been going on for many years. Nevertheless there cannot be a very great increase in activities in this connection unless the government and parliament are prepared to recommend greater expenditure in some of these fields.
I am not suggesting that there should be a sudden increase in expenditure but I think there should be an increase sufficient to provide many of the benefits that members of the committee are aware could be provided with additional expenditure. I am thinking not only of research but of the application of new fishing methods, industrial development needs, for example, conservation and inspection and all the various directorates of the Department of Fisheries that on the whole are doing an excellent job, and have

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been over the years within the limits of the money available to them for expenditure. I realize it is only a few months since the conference was held, but no doubt in the next fiscal year there will be increases such as I have suggested in the estimates of the Department of Fisheries. I would hope that the government would see fit to refer next year's estimates to the standing committee on marine and fisheries some time during the winter months in the present fiscal year so that the committee will have an opportunity to make a thorough review of the activities of the department, to refresh their memories and to be brought up to date on developments in the industry generally.
I was pleased that the minister mentioned the legislation passed by the house regarding the 12 mile limit, but I regret that so far as the general public are concerned there has been a great deal of misunderstanding about what the situation is. I recognize that the minister has not been particularly guilty in this regard, but in recent election campaigns some of his colleagues created the impression that immediately the government came to power our territorial waters would be extended to 12 miles and that conditions within that 12 mile area would be exactly the same as they have been within the historic three mile territorial sea where no foreigners fish.
I am pleased to note that the act has been brought into effect, but I note that an order in council was passed on July 17 which exempts the fishing vessels of a number of countries, the United States of America, France, Great Britain, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Norway and Denmark for the time being at least from the application of the legislation excluding foreign fishing vessels from the 12 mile territorial sea. I hope that at some time during the course of the minister's replies he will be able to give the committee some indication of what the policy of the government is going to be in this regard. If there is going to be a phasing out period for these countries, what are the terms going to be? Are some of these countries going to be excluded from the application of the act indefinitely, I hope the minister will be able to answer no. In actual fact the situation at the present time is much the same as it has been in previous years, with the exception that no additional foreign fishermen can come within the 12 mile limit.
I also hope that at an early date the government will be able to announce the co-ordinates to be established under this legislation which will close off large bodies of water and
[Mr. MacLean (Queens) .1
make them national waters of Canada. I should like to think that this will be done before next spring. In particular, so far as sealing for example is concerned, I would hope it would be done early enough to exclude foreigners from carrying on sealing in the gulf of St. Lawrence and the strait of Belle Isle, those areas where they have customarily killed seals in previous years. I would hope that the co-ordinates would be established in time for that and that there will be no exception so far as sealing is concerned.
I am pleased that the minister brought up the question of sealing. I am concerned not only about the humane aspect of the matter involving the methods of killing but also about the conservation of the resource. We should remember that another valuable species of sea mammal existed in huge numbers in the gulf of St. Lawrence in early times but became completely extinct some years ago. I refer to the type of walrus that existed there. The seal stocks are exploited by a number of countries and they should be the subject of urgent conservation agreements. I commend the minister and the department for taking action to have seals included in the ICNAF treaty.
There are a number of other points I should like to mention. The minister referred to the progress of the negotiations for the extension of the north Pacific treaty. I cannot emphasize too much the importance of arriving at an agreement to protect particularly the species of fish on which Canadian taxpayers have spent considerable sums of money over the years in providing fishways, artificial spawning grounds and so on. I trust that these types of fish will be recognized as ones in which Canada has a special interest and a degree of proprietary ownership, regardless of where they happen to migrate in the Pacific ocean. I hope that something equivalent to the principle of abstention will be included in the new treaty.
I do not want to dwell at length on other aspects at the present time, but when the items are called the minister might bring us up to date on the progress and success or otherwise of the big Qualicum project, the matter of lamprey control in the great lakes with lampricide, and perhaps give us a more extended review of the shipbuilding and replacement plans of the department. I may say that during the period I was the minister, the department found it necessary to replace quite a number of vessels of smaller size. But in addition to that, as I recall, we had to re-

engine the Howay and Laurier, build a new Cygnus, also the Cape Freels, the A.T. Cameron, the G.B. Reed and initiated the replacement of the old Arctica which the minister has reported is now in operation. Perhaps the minister would say a word about other major programs so far as ship replacement is concerned.
I was interested, as I am sure other members of the committee were, in the report the minister gave in connection with joint programs with the provinces with regard to the development of the industry, not only in methods of catching, processing and so on, but in other phases such as the possibility of commercial fish farming and matters of that sort. I think he left the implication, and I do not believe it was intentional, that all these programs stemmed from the federal-provincial conference on fisheries. Most of these programs, of course, have been going on for years between the provinces on the one hand and the federal department on the other.
I commend the minister for the interest he is showing in additional educational programs in co-operation with the provinces for fishermen, because this is a highly competitive international industry in which we cannot depend on having any built-in advantage so far as competition with other countries is concerned. We, in many cases, exploit a common resource upon the high seas. Therefore it is essential that the industry is engaged in by people who are of the highest skills and capabilities in order to compete effectively with the high standards of technical training which have been a common situation in Europe, and no doubt in Japan and the other countries with which Canada now competes. Of course the minister no doubt recognizes that the opportunities in this regard are greater than they were because of the great developments in the building of technical and other schools as a result of joint programs between the Department of Labour and the provinces over the last number of years.
I commend the minister for keeping his remarks non-political, because this is a nonpolitical department and we are all interested in its progress. Some statements that have been made by some of his colleagues during previous election campaigns are regrettable. Some of these statements indicated these people were not as knowledgeable as they should be with regard to the fishing industry, and it would seem evident they hoped they were speaking to an audience which was not very well versed in the problems of the fishing industry because they were trying to
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create the impression that any difficulties of the fishing industry were due almost solely to the minister who happened to be the head of the department at the time. I hope that this sort of thing will not happen in the future. I take no official credit, but when I headed the department I had the honour of being the head of a department manned by some of the finest, most capable civil servants in Canada, and perhaps anywhere in this regard. I would say the main limitation on progress so far as the Department of Fisheries can initiate it and stimulate it, is chiefly lack of funds. There is no lack of technical knowledge, skill and desire concerning what is beneficial to the fishing industry. There have been unfortunate statements made in the past, as I have said, by some of the minister's colleagues.
I note that one of the items which has increased is the cost of publications and advertising. Perhaps the minister might consider running an advertisement in some of the newspapers in the fishing areas stating that the outlandish and extravagant promises made by some of his colleagues in the heat of election campaigns should not be taken seriously by the fishing industry.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Before you recognize the next hon. member, Mr. Chairman, may I correct now what I am sure the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) inadvertently overlooked. He stated the total amount by which the estimates were increased was $395,000. There is also an amount of $1,588,000 in the supplementary estimates, which makes the over-all increase $1,982,000.


John Angus MacLean: I was aware of that. I was reading the comparison of the main estimates on the sheet in the back of the book.


Mr. Barnett:: At the outset of my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say that I find myself in complete agreement with both the minister and the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean), the former minister of the department, when they referred to the fact that most of the success so far achieved in enhancing the development of the fishing industry in Canada has resulted from the fact that we have a small but devoted band of public servants in the administrative and scientific areas of the department. I certainly wish to join with the minister and the previous speaker in expressing my appreciation, on behalf of this party, of the kind of service they have given to Canada and to Canadian fishermen in particular.

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* The hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) suggested that this was not a political department. He made reference to some statements which apparently have been rankling him a little bit and which were made by members or former members of this house. I would agree with him that in the sense of the word "political", which was obvious from his remarks, by and large the Department of Fisheries has not been a political department. Nevertheless I would suggest that in the proper use of the term "politics", it is as much a political department as any other department of government and that questions of policy developed with the knowledge of our fishing resources present and potential, are very much matters of urgent political consideration in this country. They certainly should be of urgent consideration to the members in this house.
The minister in his statement gave us as comprehensive an outline of the activities of the department during the past year as I suppose one could expect from him in a single speech. Most of what he said, on the face of it, sounded as if there had been some pracical achievements. However, before the consideration of the estimates has been concluded, we might wish to analyse and discuss some of the particular items to which he referred, and probably raise some questions on matters to which he did not refer.
The hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) has mentioned one or two of these. There are a number of other matters that are of great concern on the Pacific coast of Canada at the present time to which the minister did not refer. I mention for example the question of licence limitation which is, I think, a matter of great and urgent concern. There is the whole question as to what developments can and should take place in the field of the rights of fishermen in the matter of collective organization, a situation which I think the minister cannot but agree is in a rather unhappy state at the present time in British Columbia because of apparent misunderstandings as to where jurisdiction lies. We have had many unnecessary upsets in the fishing industry in British Columbia due in large part to the fact that there seems to have been no proper exercise of jurisdiction at the government level. Here again the question of federal and provincial jurisdiction seems to enter into it.
The minister in his remarks confined himself almost entirely to what I would call the day-to-day operations of the department and the industry within Canada. But I feel perhaps it might be useful, in the context of our

initial consideration of the estimates of the department for this year, if someone said a few words about the relationship of Canadian fisheries to the situation in the world as a whole. I certainly cannot pose as any authority in this field so I would like, if I may, to draw briefly from what has been said by someone whom I believe-and I think most members will agree with this-is recognized and regarded as an authority in this field. I should like to put on the record one or two quotations from statements which have been made by the recently retired director of the fisheries division of the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations, Dr. D. B. Finn. First of all, Mr. Chairman, if I may I would refer to an article which appeared in the Financial Times of London which the Toronto Globe and Mail thought significant enough to reproduce in June of last year at a time when Dr. Finn was still occupying the post of director of the fisheries division with the United Nations. This statement is as follows:
The most recent statistics show that in 1961 man made his best annual fish catch in history-41,200,000 metric tons.
I suppose these figures are slightly out of date today; the minister indicated that there had been a considerable rise in the last year in the total tonnage of catch in Canadian waters and this may very well apply in some other areas of the world. However, Dr. Finn in his article goes on to point out:
About 80 per cent of this was taken north of the equator, much of it from a few traditionally rich grounds whose names have rung with adventure for centuries-
He goes on to name some of the well known fishing banks adjacent to Europe and adjacent to our eastern shores. He refers to the banks in the East China sea, the Yellow sea and the Kuroshio current, which he says have traditionally supplied the great fish markets of the Far East. Dr. Finn then goes on to say:
But the traditionally good fishing spots are beginning to show signs of depletion. Within the past few years two trends have resulted. First, as resources dwindle, nations have extended their national fishing waters, increasing international problems. Second, fishing is done much farther from home than ever before and catching is combined with processing at sea by the more developed countries.
I believe those remarks are quite significant in view of the fact that, as the minister has indicated, Canadian negotiations in the international field are going on at the present time. While I do not wish to go into that question today in my remarks, nevertheless I make reference to this matter because I

think it points up what some of us in the house have been trying to suggest, namely the urgency and importance of the Canadian government developing satisfactory arrangements with other nations who are interested in the fisheries of the high seas. Dr. Finn in this article goes on to mention another matter. He says:
Two other significant occurrences have influenced fisheries since about 1956. The first is what appears, from slim statistics, to be an upsurge in China's fishing industry. The second is the tremendous growth of the Peruvian fishmeal industry. Peru now catches more than 12 per cent of the entire world catch-a take composed almost entirely of the finger-length anchovy and used almost entirely for animal feed.
The impact of that activity on the part of Peru has not, I think, been without its effect upon certain aspects of the fishing industry on the west coast of Canada. Then Dr. Finn goes on to put our position in perspective with other fishing nations of the world in these words:
In terms of amount of fish caught, the greatest fishing nations rank thus: Japan, China, Peru, Russia, the United States, Norway and Canada. The 1955-59 average catches for the top seven add up to more than half the average total catch of the 73 countries which take 98 per cent of the world catch. In 1959, Britain ranked eighth among fishing nations; in 1961 she ranked eleventh, behind Spain, south and southwest Africa and India.
Part of the explanation for the world catch increase (more than 27 per cent since 1958) lies in today's higher-powered, longer-ranged fishing boats and their modem gear. The largest and most modem of the world's fleets belong to Russia and Japan. Their ships roam almost every sea. Boats of more than 300 horsepower comprised only 6 per cent of the 1960 Soviet fishing fleet, but these boats took 76 per cent of the 1960 Soviet catch.
Then Dr. Finn goes on to describe how both the Japanese and the soviets have developed methods of catching, processing and preserving the fishing products on the high seas in their modern vessels. Later in this article, however, Dr. Finn points out:
Meanwhile, the majority of the world's fishermen still put to sea under oar or sail, many thousands in craft that have undergone few changes since prehistoric times. In large areas of the tropics, one fisherman catches about one ton of fish a year. The rough figure in developed countries is more than 100 tons per man per year.
Despite the far-ranging trawlers, man has not yet made more than a gesture towards exploiting the larger potential of the seas. It is estimated that 90 per cent of sea productivity is never harvested by man.
Since 1955 the Japanese have discovered at least nine new rich tuna areas in the south Pacific and Indo-Pacific. Rich catches are reported from the gulf of Guinea and the north Pacific. The southern seas are virtually untouched.
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Dr. Finn then goes on to express his considered opinion in this regard:
The sea can be made to produce more-through species transplantation, for example.
Then he makes reference to the attempt made to transplant Pacific salmon species to the Atlantic coast of Canada and points out that the Soviet union has transferred Baltic herring to the sea of Azov, thereby doubling the growth rate of the species. Later in the article, Dr. Finn suggests-and I quote him again:
Artificially induced upwelling to carry rich seabed nutrients nearer the surface has been proposed to increase fish catches. Slow nuclear reactors lowered into the deeps may, some time in the future, overcome the problem of the tremendous amounts of heat energy required. Direct fertilization especially in narrow bays, may prove successful. Elimination of the major predators of fish would no doubt increase catches. But in this, and in every other instance, the sea's life balance must be preserved and as yet we know too little of these life cycles.
As I said at the outset of my remarks, there might be some virtue, as we discuss the activities of the Department of Fisheries, in making some reference to the position occupied by Canada in relation to world fisheries problems, placing our own situation in total perspective. I should like, if I may, to refer to another article expressing the views of Dr. Finn-an article written shortly after he had retired from his position as director of the fisheries division of the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations. This appeared in the March, 1964 issue of Western Fisheries:
The lack of wise management of the world's fisheries resources seriously restricts man's ability to reap a maximum harvest from the sea, according to Dr. D. B. Finn, who retired January 31 as director of the fisheries division of the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations.
He blamed the inability to get maximum sustained yield from the sea on the intense competitiveness of private fisheries enterprises and the inability of governments to agree on a common code of discipline in exploiting the oceans.
The article goes on to say that Dr. Finn cited the failure of the international whaling convention as one example of this contention. He is then quoted as saying:
The result is that the blue whale is now economically extinct. It seems to me that the world is now on its way to this state of affairs at a rapidly increasing pace.
Private enterprise in fishing tends to become more oligopolistic, if not outright monopolostic. Although this may increase efficiency and make possible a better use of capital, it does nothing to relieve the competition between countries for the spoils of the chase. In fact, it may make it worse.
Nor does increased efficiency in catching, per se, do anything to produce wiser cropping to

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achieve the maximum yield. Under such regimes, the yield of the sea may be far below its potential production. Eventually only the most efficient private expeditions will be able to make fishing pay. This is not necessarily true for state-operated expeditions which may be able to disregard costs as a matter of government policy.
Dr. Finn is then quoted as saying that one of the other problems is the sheer number of organizations now engaged in fisheries research.
In concluding my use of the knowledge and advice of Dr. Finn, I should like to quote the last paragraph of this article. It reads:
Reduced to its simplest terms, world fishing has two elements-the nature of fishing itself, and the living resource and its response to man's exploitation. Describing the first, he said, "Modern fishing is a fiercely competitive hunt. The hunters and their skills increase daily."
I have deliberately introduced the advice and the knowledge contained in these articles because their author, having occupied such an important post for a number of years, is obviously in a much better position to have expert knowledge on the situation than I am, certainly, or indeed any other member of this committee. I think the quotations which I have put on record from these articles place in perspective some of the questions we must consider in relation to our overall fisheries policies. In my view they provide good ground for the concern which all members of this committee should be showing with regard to the results of our efforts in the course of international negotiation-concern, also, that the government of Canada should take seriously the desirability of these negotiations reaching a fruitful outcome.
I think it is apparent, after reading the speeches made during the debate we had earlier when the bill on the fishing zones came before this house, that some of us did not feel the government was taking these matters seriously enough. In fact I sometimes feel the Minister of Fisheries is being left out, in a little corner of his own, away from the centre of government activity. While he may have received some token assistance from our amiable Secretary of State for External Affairs in connection with certain of these negotiations I think the minister and his small complement of officials are left to wrestle with these problems alone, and that the full weight of the government of Canada is not being thrown into these efforts.
The same might be said regarding our attitude toward internal policies. The minister did make some reference to a federal-provincial conference and to this question of a national policy. I listened carefully to his report of some of the activities which, he

said, have already resulted from that conference and I had the feeling, shared apparently by the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean), that many of these activities were already in progress, up to a point at least, before that conference began. Representations were made at those meetings, as the minister will recall, to the effect that what we need is a real national development program. Perhaps I may recall some of the statements which were made with particular reference to fisheries problems on the Atlantic coast by someone who is certainly a better authority on these matters than I can claim to be. I refer to the premier of Newfoundland. I had the opportunity of paying a short visit to Newfoundland a few years ago when I saw a little at first hand of the fishing industry in that province. But certainly the presentation made by the premier of Newfoundland to the conference last January is much more up to date than any personal knowledge or impression I have of the situation there.
Perhaps I should point out that in his introduction the premier of Newfoundland had this to say when he presented his statement to the conference on January 20 of this year. I should like to make reference to a few excerpts from the premier's statement. He said:
A year ago the government of Newfoundland made a presentation to the government of Canada -a presentation that we entitled "National fisheries development".
That, of course, was at a time when the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) was still minister of fisheries.
In that presentation we talked of a national fisheries policy as distinct from a Newfoundland fisheries policy. We are still talking about a national policy. And we still visualize the regional and the provincial fisheries programs to be developed within the framework of national policy as integral parts of a broad national, all-Canada, coast to coast fisheries development program.
We are not talking about a policy conceived as a system of welfare payments and handout programs. We are talking about policy designed to achieve far reaching development and investment programs that will enable our Canadian fishermen, whether they be in Newfoundland or Quebec, in Manitoba or in British Columbia to make a decent living from the harvesting of the rich resources of the sea the lakes and the rivers of our land. This is what we ask for Newfoundland. This is what we ask for Canada.
Then in the next paragraph Mr. Smallwood goes on to say:
We do not have it today. Today the position of the fisherman is prejudiced by risk and uncertainty in terms of both price and production. Risk and uncertainty means that capital cannot be safely extended: it means that the organization of co-operatives is fraught with difficulty and

danger. In the distribution of income resulting from the catch the fisherman, certainly the Newfoundland fisherman, is in a residual and untenable position.
A little further on he goes on to say:
Gradually the fish resource becomes little more than a product that marginally reduces the necessity for social and welfare payments. The accumulative effect in the long run is a downward economic spiral of the fishing industry.
Then lastly he points out:
-to this date despite good intentions and a great deal of unco-ordinated piecemeal activity, we have largely failed our fishermen. The fish are there, the markets are there, the fishermen are there. But the governments across Canada have failed to devise that national policy which can provide real opportunities for the men who live by fishing.
I think that these words which were uttered at the beginning of this year may form a fairly sound basis on which we can assess the merits of the statements which were made by the minister in his opening remarks about what progress has been made in the development of a fisheries program.
The minister may recall that the premier's statement was made against the context of a letter which he had received from the present Prime Minister, and perhaps it might be useful to recall what the Prime Minister had to say in this letter to Mr. Smallwood which was apparently written on February 13, 1963. He said:
Dear Mr. Smallwood:
I am grateful to you for giving me a copy of the presentation of the government of Newfoundland to the government of Canada on national fisheries development and for the opportunity, as leader of the Liberal party, to express my attitude to these proposals for a national fishery policy.
While, during an election campaign, I could not possibly secure the expert advice I would require to make a judgment in detail of the various proposals, your approach to a national fishery policy is right in line with the declared policy of the national Liberal party, to "take parallel action for the welfare of farmers and fishermen;" and with the objective set out in my speech on February 11: "to ensure the farmers and the fishermen of all Canada their fair share of the national income and opportunities for a better life".
I have no hesitation, therefore, in undertaking, if I become prime minister after April 8, to submit the Newfoundland proposals to the Department of Fisheries and other agencies of government concerned for immediate examination and report, to be followed promptly by the calling of a federal-provincial fisheries conference to work out a federal-provincial program for fishery development to be founded on the principle that national action for fisheries should parallel the action already being taken, and action to be taken, for agriculture.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) L. B. Pearson
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Well, Mr. Chairman, there again I think that in approaching our discussion of these estimates the letter of the present Prime Minister addressed to Premier Smallwood in February 1963 provides a very good basis for us to assess the progress which the minister claims is being made in this respect in his department. The hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) made reference to the fact that we have had some rather important fishery legislation. We had one item, the matter of the 12 mile fishing zone, but I do not see anything on the order paper today with respect to fisheries or fisheries development, any action which has to do with the expansion of fisheries credit, or any of these matters. Had time permitted today during questions I had intended to ask the Prime Minister, knowing that he might have commitments which would make it impossible for him to remain in the chamber during the entire consideration of the fisheries estimates, whether he had anything to add to an answer he gave me on February 21 of this year. As the committee may recall, this was shortly after the Prime Minister had made his opening speech of the current session. I had asked him what measures he had in mind to parallel this action as far as the fishery is concerned-he had made some reference to farm credit in his speech-and the Prime Minister answered in these words, which are to be found at page 92 of Hansard:
Mr. Speaker, I am very conscious of the fact that I did not mention fisheries in my statement yesterday. It was an omission, but I can assure my hon. friend that assistance to agriculture in the form of broadening the basis of farm credit and in other ways will certainly be paralleled by help to the fishery.
As I say, Mr. Chairman, I did not have a chance to ask the Prime Minister today whether he had anything to add to that, and now he is no longer in the house I hope the minister will arrange that the Prime Minister explain when there is going to be this parallel legislation with the farm credit legislation, the farm machinery legislation and some of these other matters which apparently, in the Prime Minister's view and in the view of the premier of the province of Newfoundland, must be part and parcel of an adequate national fisheries development program. In many ways-


The Chairman:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired, unless he has consent of the committee to continue beyond his allocated time.
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Thomas Speakman Barnett: I am just about to conclude, Mr. Chairman.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I was simply going to say in conclusion that I think it is not unfair to say that in many ways the Department of Fisheries is the Cinderella of the government departments. From what I have been able to observe, so far at least in this session, I must say that the Prime Minister seems to be acting much more in the capacity of the stepmother to Cinderella than in the capacity of the Prince Charming who is going to come along with a golden chariot to assist his minister to carry forward an adequate fisheries development program for Canada.


Mr.   Paiterson@: Mr. Chairman, it is always very interesting to hear a resume of the activities of the fisheries department. I think ministers of fisheries have set a precedent from year to year, and it is now being carried on, in that their introductory remarks have been among the most interesting presented by the ministers of any of the departments. On this occasion the minister has endeavoured to give a fairly comprehensive resume of the work of his department, for which I wish to express our appreciation. I am not going to suggest that the work has been sufficient to meet our expectations and desires, but perhaps we would never be satisfied and would always look for something better and more far reaching. However, we appreciate the statement the minister has made in introducing his estimates.
Reference has been made to the legislation passed recently which extended the territorial seas and fishing limits. The minister is aware that there was considerable dissatisfaction with the extent of the limits provided by that legislation. We were very desirous of having some additions made to the amendments in order to make more real and positive the policies that were expressed and the objectives we desired should be reached. One of those was, of course, a definite setting of the limits or straight base lines. However, we do trust that the minister is pursuing these particular matters with zeal and industry, and we shall look forward in the near future to further statements, we hope setting out the conclusion of negotiations in order to bring into effect what we really desire in this field.
Reference was also made by the minister to discussions currently in progress in respect of the north Pacific treaty, and to the fact that a new draft convention is being discussed.
[The Chairman. 1
We hope in the drafting of this convention the minister has remembered many of those recommendations and representations made by fishermen and fishermen's organizations on the west coast, and I refer particularly to the united fishermen and allied workers union. I believe those recommendations set forth very clearly and positively some of the requirements and needs of the fishing industry in respect of this particular matter. As I have said, I trust the minister will give full consideration to these various representations, and we hope that when the matter is finally resolved it will be to the satisfaction of the fishermen and those who are interested in the fishing industry.
The minister stated that before ratification of the new convention it would be submitted to the committee on marine and fisheries. I do not think this particular committee is being used to its full potential, though during this session the legislation dealing with the 12 mile limit was referred to the committee and considerable discussion was entered into at that time. The committee on marine and fisheries could be used to a much greater extent in an endeavour to resolve some of the fisheries problems, and also to draw public attention to many matters in respect of the fishing industry. A very fine suggestion has been made, that as early as possible in another session the estimates of this department should be submitted for the consideration of the committee on marine and fisheries, and I suggest that whenever it is possible, other matters having to do with fisheries should also be referred to that committee for consideration and recommendation.
The minister referred in his statement to the federal-provincial conference on fisheries development which was held in January of this year. He presented a rather lengthy enumeration of projects under way at the present time, but most of them are, I suggest, of minor consideration. Perhaps that is all we should expect this soon after that conference, but we believe that as time passes, and as additional conferences are held, we will be able to look forward to some very positive legislative action in respect of the fisheries development program. Representatives of various provinces presented recommendations and views in respect of fisheries to the development program, and it would seem to me that we are entitled to expect many of these matters to appear before us in the form of legislation before too long.
The minister's reference to the establishment of regional committees was noteworthy,

as this is a very fine development. We are all aware that in various parts of Canada fisheries problems are different, and it is only natural that in order to arrive at solutions to those problems it will be necessary to deal with them on a more or less regional basis. We recognize the importance of overall national policies in this particular field, as well as in any other field, but to be realistic we also recognize the fact that there are local and regional problems which must be resolved at a local and regional level.
I also noted the minister's reference to the sports fishery advisory council which has been established for British Columbia. It seems that the sports fishery is taking an increasingly important place in the fishing industry, and has been the cause of concern to many individuals who are engaged in commercial fisheries. This has also been a matter of real interest to ardent sports fishermen, and therefore it seems only right and proper that this field of interest or endeavour should be given proper consideration.
I hope the legislation to which the minister referred with regard to seal operations will have the desired effect. We all remember the events of the past, when members of parliament were made aware of the very unfortunate practices being followed in hunting seal. It has been stated that these reports were exaggerated, but it does seem that they were of sufficient interest to cause a great deal of concern across this country, resulting in arousing the concern of a great many people about the activities of those engaged in this operation. We trust that the interest the minister has taken and the legislation he will be proposing will be sufficient to take care of this particular situation.
Mr. Chairman, my remarks are very general today in respect of the first item of these estimates, but as we consider the individual items we will perhaps be taking part in further discussions. However, I am sure we are all aware of the tremendous economic importance of the fishing industry to Canada. It has a particular interest so far as food supplies are concerned, the effects of the industry upon our economy, the employment picture and so on. The fishing industry is indeed one of the major industries of our nation.
Coming as I do from British Columbia I cannot help but concern myself with the fisheries as they affect my own province. I have with me today the British Columbia Government News for July, 1964. This issue brings to our attention some of the relevant 20220-530J
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factors dealing with the different industries of our province and there is a brief statement here regarding fisheries. I should like to place it on the record to show the importance of the fishing industry to my province and, of course, the province of the speaker who preceded me and many others in the house. It reads as follows:
British Columbia fish products in 1963 had a wholesale market value of $76 million. A further $4.1 million in 1963 income is due to halibut landed in United States ports by provincial fishermen and from local processing of imported tuna. Herring production in 1963 reached an all time high. The wholesale marketed value of fish products increased from $57,234,000 in 1952 to $76 million, up 35 per cent, in 1963.
Canada in 1961 ranked sixth in world catch of fish-
According to United Nations statistics.
-and the provincial industry ranks first in Canada in landed and marketed values.
1963 provincial landed catch was worth $38.5 million versus $46.7 million in 1962. About 15,400 commercial licensed fishermen and another 1,250 men were employed on packers and collectors. The 9,746 boats used to land the fish were valued at $70.9 million and gear and shore installations for boats worth $10 million. Landed values were 59 per cent salmon, 15 per cent halibut and 17 per cent herring.
1963 exports of fish and marine products of British Columbia were $42 million, and principal markets were United States, United Kingdom, France, Belgium-Luxembourg, and Australia. Western Europe and United Kingdom took over 50 per cent of foreign shipments.
This points out one of the reasons why I am vitally interested in the fishing industry, and I am sure every member of the house recognizes the importance of this industry not only to our province but to the entire nation. Sometimes I think it is a little difficult for members representing inland constituencies to grasp the significance of the fishing industry and to build up the interest that we would like to see. Nevertheless I am sure that every member is aware of its vast importance to the Canadian economy.
One important aspect of the fisheries program is conservation, and we along the coast of British Columbia are very conscious of the importance of conservation programs and procedures. But while we recognize the importance and necessity, many times we become a little irked at the manner in which the procedures followed are implemented.
The minister is well aware of the fact that in past weeks and months the fishermen of the west coast have been quite disturbed about some of the measures being used and the manner of their application. One area of concern involves the inroads by foreign powers

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into the fishing industry and the fear has been instilled in the minds of the fishermen that the conservation programs being carried on at the expense of Canadian fishermen are possibly being thwarted by concessions being made to foreign fishermen. I know that the fact that these fears have been expressed so often has been a matter of concern to the minister, and I think it would be very useful and advisable that every possible method should be made use of to make the fishermen of the west coast aware of all the factors involved and to make sure that the expenditure of money, as I have said, is not being offset by concessions made to foreign fishermen as opposed to the opportunities that local fishermen enjoy in these particular areas.
Another matter that caused considerable dismay last year was the way in which the closure regulations were applied on the Fraser river. Many fishermen living along the Fraser river depend largely upon the fishing industry for their livelihood, but it almost seems that when the time comes that they can actually make a little money they are faced with closures which make it impossible for them to obtain sufficient income to see them through. Representations were made with regard to this matter, and I would urge that in the implementation of these conservation measures on the Fraser river every possible consideration be given to the local fishermen in order that they may be able to carry on their activities and earn their livelihood from their chosen profession.
Reference was made by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni to the matter of licence limitation. This is becoming a very live issue so far as the fishermen of British Columbia are concerned. I do not know to what extent studies have been carried on in this field. I hope the minister will be able to clarify the position of the department with regard to the principle of licence limitation because there is a strong feeling that this is necessary in order to meet the needs of that section of the country. My remarks at this time, Mr. Chairman, are intended to be very general, as I stated, and we shall look forward to taking part in the discussion as we come to the various items in these estimates.


Mr. Granger:: Mr. Chairman, I echo the sentiment expressed by the hon. member for Fraser Valley that it is always a pleasure to taka part in the debate on the estimates of the Minister of Fisheries. This applies today under the present minister and it did under the previous minister, the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean). I believe that mem-

bers cf the house as a whole approach the problems of the fisheries with objectivity and I also believe that not only those members from both coasts of Canada and from the inland fishing areas, but Canadians generally, are aware that the fishing industry is of great importance to Canada and can be and will be, we hope, of even greater importance. As a matter of fact, the intensive expansion of the fishing industry by other nations, many of whose ships appear in the waters off our coast, is an indication of the world wide interest in the fishing industry as mankind strives to find the food that is needed in abundance. Perhaps it is this intensive increase in fishing activity by other nations which provides us with a challenge equally as great as that of the physical needs of the fishermen of Canada. Truly the fishing industry is an industry of great national importance.
Today the minister gave us a very fair resume of the activities of his department and its plans. I am sure all of us appreciate his efforts to supply the committee with the information it requires. I should like to mention one or two matters in my brief remarks. He referred to the failure of the fisheries in Newfoundland, which is in contrast to the fisheries elsewhere in Canada. Unfortunately Newfoundland did not share in the general increase in productivity which the fisheries of other parts of Canada enjoyed. Although we hope that the latter part of the season will partly compensate for the fisheries failure so far, and although increased prices which fortunately exist will help to compensate for this failure and perhaps will go a long way toward compensating for it, nevertheless it is possible there will be areas in Newfoundland in which the catch will be so small the increase in price coupled with an increase in productivity later in the season, will not compensate for the failure of the fisheries in the early part of the season. I would at this point simply ask the minister to keep in mind those fishermen who are so affected.
I should like to direct the minister's attention also to this matter of the poor catch this year, particularly in the cod fishery. It has been suggested that perhaps intensive fishing off the east coast of Canada is responsible for this. I would suggest that this possibility be not overlooked, and as a matter of fact I would suggest serious consideration be given to this contention. Nevertheless I think it fair to point out that these failures in the fisheries do occur from time to time, and

that there does seem to be a cycle with respect to production. I know that in days before there was such intensive fishing by our foreign competitors, such failures did occur. 1 ask the minister to have his department look into this matter of the periodic failure of the fisheries, what they are related to, what part over-fishing may play in them and what part natural cycles have to play in them.
I was interested in hearing the minister say that an extension in the bait service is planned. This is really good news. At the same time, I should like to compliment him on the provision he has made for increases in the stocks of bait when we go into next season's fishing. This is a very important forward step because actually a shortage of bait plagues many sections of Newfoundland. I do think it is desirable that a greater number of bait holding units be supplied, and that it will be necessary to have additional cold storage boat services. I do believe it has been demonstrated that although these small holding units, which are suitable for small fishing communities, are of great value, to supply them effectively additional bait will be needed. I ask the minister to keep this in mind, as well as the possibility of the development of artificial bait for commercial fishing.
I should like to mention that the minister's department should keep in mind the possibility of shipping fish fresh by air from eastern Canada to European markets. I believe there is a great potential there as the standard of living and ability to pay higher prices obtains in Europe. Opportunity will begin to open up for Canada to get into the more lucrative aspects of supplying fresh fish to these markets, because fresh fish brings a much better price than either the frozen article or the salted article.
There is also the possibility of exploiting the turbot fishery to a greater extent. The market for salted turbot is shrinking and an alternative market must be found for turbot in another form such as fresh, or canned, if the turbot fishery is to continue-and we hope it can continue. The fishing industry is the oldest industry in Canada. Like all old industries, it is bound to accumulate many problems as it goes along. I do not believe there is any problem of the fishing industry which is not capable of solution. What is quite frequently referred to as the fishing problem is not so much one great problem as it is the accumulation of several smaller ones which taken individually and examined thoroughly,
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will be capable of solution. In the end this could result in an expansion of this great industry which is essential to Canada and essential to the food supply of the world. The harvest of the sea could well equal in importance the harvest of the land.


Mr. Crouse:: It is not my intention to speak at great length and delay the estimates of the Department of Fisheries. However, as the member for Queens-Lunenburg, a riding in which is presently located the largest deep sea fishing fleet in North America, I feel I should make some comments on the problems relating to the fishing industry. I listened with interest to the statement made by the minister and it is evident to me he has made a good start on the fundamental problems faced by his department. It is evident also he inherited a well organized department. I believe we can safely say he has been given the tools, and we know he will accept the responsibility and get on with the job.
Fishing is big business in Nova Scotia. In my province alone the landed value last year represented some $35 million to our fishermen, out of a total landed value in the Atlantic provinces of some $49 million. Canada today is the seventh largest fishing nation in the world. Possessing the world's longest coast line, we are only now beginning to learn something about our continental shelf in areas which have produced such a prolific supply and variety of fish. We are receiving assistance today along this line from the research and development carried out by the oceanographic institute, the first of its kind in Canada, which was opened by the previous administration in 1962 at Bedford basin near Halifax.
While this institute was opened under the direction of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, it still has in it a branch of the fisheries department. As a result, our marine laboratories are expanding; graduate students are being trained in all areas of oceanography and research; new research ships are carrying out scientific investigations along our coasts, the latest being the Canadian scientific ship Hudson, which was under construction since 1961 and which was commissioned on February 14 of this year. A floating laboratory, it is capable of hydrographic and oceanographic work anywhere in the world, but it will perform mainly, I understand, in the Arctic and Atlantic oceans. We can therefore expect rapid development in this field. We are not alone in this work, for all major maritime nations are now taking part. Throughout the world roughly 50 research ships are constantly at sea carrying

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approximately 600 technicians and trained personnel. Through this increase in scientific effort we hope to plug a big gap in our knowledge concerning the earth on which we live. We hope to learn more about the habits of fish which are part of our food resources and which automatically renew themselves.
This study carried on by the department is already producing dividends in the form of a new type of fisheries chart issued by the Canadian hydrographic service to assist fishermen on Canada's east coast to substantially increase their catch. This chart covers Ban-quereau and Misaine banks which lie off Nova Scotia between Scatarie and Sable island. It is essentially an accurate detailed picture of the shape and depth of the sea bottom, enabling fishermen to select the most favourable areas and banks for fishing. It is a good chart. I have had an opportunity to examine it, and it is very well prepared. This of course is a start; but I cannot urge too strongly upon the minister the need for additional charts of this nature covering many other banks off our coasts which are not now clearly outlined and detailed in this manner. With our expanding fishing fleet it is vitally essential that charts of this type be provided to our captains, who are finding it increasingly difficult to secure greater catches of fish, especially at the present time when our offshore banks are being seriously overfished by large trawlers from other nations.
Speaking of trawlers, Mr. Chairman, I think it is important that I bring to the minister's attention the apparent preference by our maritime fishermen for the wooden trawler v. the steel trawler. When the previous administration was in power they instituted the payment of subsidies to encourage the restoration of the shipbuilding industry in Canada. At that time steel ships were subsidized at 50 per cent of the cost of their Canadian content, and wooden ships were subsidized at 40 per cent of the cost of their Canadian content. As a result, the shipbuilding industry today in Nova Scotia is a substantial contributor to the economy of the province. The current boom in Nova Scotia's wooden boat and shipbuilding industry alone is worth more than $10 million a year. All boatyards from Cape Breton island to Yarmouth are operating at maximum capacity. This speaks well for the subsidy policy.
However, the subsidy payment on wooden ships has recently dropped from 40 per cent to 35 per cent, creating a disparity of 15 per cent on subsidy payments between wooden and steel ships. At the same time the costs

of wooden ship construction have been increasing, due in part to recent new tax levies. I would therefore urge upon the Minister of Fisheries that he take steps to remove this discrimination against the wooden ship builder. He may well argue that this matter does not come under his department; that it pertains to transport. But in my view, Mr. Chairman, anything that affects the fishing industry is or should be of vital concern to the Minister of Fisheries.
We have seen many changes in the fishing industry in the last 30 years. When I was a boy growing up in Lunenburg, all deep sea fishing was carried out with dories working from schooners on the banks. It was a tough task, and the list of men and vessels lost at sea in the fishermen's memorial room at the Lunenburg community centre tells the story of disasters at sea in the days of sail in the absence of radio and ship-to-shore communications. In those days a fisherman was lucky if he made $1,000 in a year, and yet they built their homes and raised large families. Today the picture is greatly changed, and the few schooners that are still active in the area have been converted into draggers or long liners. The long-liner is a modification of the earlier form of line fishing from a dory, the only difference being that at the present time it is set from the ship and hauled by an automatic hauler.
Perhaps the greatest innovation in recent years has been the catching of swordfish by using the long line method. Last year's swordfish landings were more than three times greater than in 1962, with a landed value of $21 million. However, though this type of fishing has eliminated the uncertainties of harpooning, it has encouraged more fishermen in 50 or 60 foot boats to travel further out to sea in search of broadbills.
While ranging far from shore they are at the mercy of the elements. This happened on August 3 of this year when the long-liner Cheryl Ann, under the command of Captain Charlie Fevens of Yarmouth, became disabled in a 60 mile an hour gale due to engine failure on Georges bank approximately 120 miles from Yarmouth. The captain radioed the Yarmouth marine radio station requesting help, and a government ship, the Thomas Carleton was dispatched to his assistance. However upon arrival at the scene the captain of the Thomas Carleton advised Captain Fevens that he was not allowed to pull him in but could only stand by so that the crew could be rescued if the fishing boat sank.

Fortunately, a Russian tug was in the area and its captain volunteered immediately to assist and towed the disabled long liner to Yarmouth and safety, free of charge. Apparently the Russians believed in the necessity of protecting the lives of our Canadian fishermen and their ships; and we know from past experience that a similar code exists throughout the United States coastguard, who automatically tow any disabled ships to the nearest port. I would therefore urge the minister to use his authority with his fellow cabinet ministers to bring about changes in the regulations, especially where our fishermen are concerned, so that an incident like the towing of the Cheryl Ann, which is looked upon throughout the east coast as a disgrace to our government services will never occur again.
At this time I wish to again refer to the necessity of bringing about changes in our scallop and lobster fishing regulations. I had previously raised this matter when I spoke in the house on July 8, and it was raised on June 22 when the standing committee on marine and fisheries met to discuss Bill No. S-17, respecting the territorial seas and fishing zones of Canada. I have pointed out that Nova Scotia is the scallop province of Canada, with our ships accounting for at least 98 per cent of all Canadian scallop production. In Lunenburg and Riverport alone we today have 53 large deep sea trawlers, with the majority engaged in catching scallops. In 1963 over 16 million pounds of scallops were landed in Nova Scotia, with a value in excess of $6 million to the fishermen; and the figures will be even higher in 1964. This industry is of tremendous importance, not only to our Nova Scotia fishermen but to the Canadian government, for the bulk of this production is sold to the United States, thus bringing in foreign exchange and needed U.S. dollars. But the Fisheries Act, under clause 31 states, that fish are not to be caught outside territorial waters when catching is forbidden in territorial waters. I was hoping that the minister in his statement would say something that would encourage me and the house to believe that this act would be changed. I will place the words of this section on the records so that hon. members will know just what it implies. Section 31 reads as follows:
No one shall leave any port or place in Canada to fish outside the territorial waters of Canada for fish the catching of which is at such time prohibited in the territorial waters of Canada opposite to or nearest the place where such person proposes to fish, and no one shall bring into Canada any
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fish caught outside the territorial waters of Canada when fishing for such fish is prohibited inside the territorial waters of Canada opposite or nearest to the place where such fish was caught, or shall bring into Canada any vessels, boats, nets, fishing gear, implements or appliances used in such fishing.
If this act were enforced today the scallop fleet operating out of Lunenburg county, could be legally tied up until October 31 thereby creating untold financial hardship in the industry. In my opinion this section of the act not only discriminates against the scallop fishermen but it also prevents the establishment of a deep sea lobster industry in Nova Scotia. As most hon. members are aware, Nova Scotia is divided into lobster fishing zones. Zone four takes in the south shore of Nova Scotia including Lunenburg, Queens, Shelburne, Yarmouth and Digby counties and the fishermen are only permitted to catch lobsters in zone four from December 1 to May 31. During the remaining six months of the year lobsters cannot be caught and legally landed in this area and this applies not only to lobsters caught on the inshore grounds but also to any lobsters which may be caught by deep sea fishermen. Nova Scotia fishermen are thereby prohibited under clause 31 of the Fisheries Act of 1932 from exploiting a deep sea lobster fishery on Georges and Browns banks and also in some areas of the Grand banks, which could be worth over $1 million per year in landed value.
In 1963, the landed value of all fish caught in Nova Scotia amounted to $35 million, a figure which represents an increase of $12 million over a decade ago. Of this total, an estimated 36 million pounds of lobster brought in almost $18 million to our fishermen. Lobsters are therefore the greatest dollar earner for our fishermen with scallops in second place. However, it is evident we are only scratching the surface, for due to prohibitive regulations we are not taking advantage of the opportunities offered by the deep sea lobster industry. We know a great market exists for lobsters both in North America and in Europe. We know that lobster stocks occupy thousands of square miles off our coastal waters, and these could be called our inshore lobster population. We also know that lobsters may be caught in our offshore waters in an area south of Georges bank approximately 100 miles from Yarmouth. What we do not know is the relation between these two lobster populations. Some marine biologists claim there are actually two distinct lobster populations, while others claim that lobsters hatched in the deep waters offshore are carried by strong currents while in the

Supply-Fisheries
free swimming stage and that these lobsters help populate the inshore banks. This is a matter which should receive the attention of scientists in the fisheries department. In my view, common sense tells us that it is wise to carry out conservation measures in our inshore lobster fishery grounds in order to assure relatively good catches and income to our inshore lobster fishermen. However, I question the soundness of carrying out a conservation policy with regard to deep sea lobsters which, in effect, applies only to any potential Canadian deep sea lobster fisherman, while leaving the grounds wide open to fishermen from any other nation wishing to exploit them.
When this question was raised during a discussion in the committee on Bill S-17, the Minister of Fisheries said:
There may be reasons to amend the Fisheries Act. There may be a reason to amend section 31. There may be a reason and a very serious one to amend section 31 of the Fisheries Act to take care of provisions such as the one mentioned by Mr. Crouse. I think the government-and I am sure I can speak in its name-would be prepared to do this if such a need occurred. But I feel it does not affect the present bill. I agree with Mr. Crouse that the government should take into consideration amending section 31 of the Fisheries Act if there is such a need.
Evidently the minister questioned the need for making these changes; he questioned the potential of this industry. In reply, I should like to quote from an article which appeared in the Maine Coast Fisherman which states:
Captain Frank Moore, president of the lobster-men's association-
This is in the United States.
-told the committee there were 3,178 lobster licences issued in 1962 for inshore lobstering bringing in $31,780 in revenue to the state.
That is the state of Maine.
He complained that deep sea lobster draggers- a dozen are now working employing about 75 fishermen-are scooping up lobsters from breeding areas offshore. He argued that the deep water breeding areas are the sources of inshore lobsters.
A little further on, the report continues:
He said the offshore lobster business was worth more than $1 million to New Bedford fishermen last year. Latest bureau of commercial fisheries statistics show that the January 1964 catch by lobster draggers totalled 161,000 pounds worth $94,000 compared to 95,000 pounds, valued at $53,000, in the same month of 1963.
I am sure it would be possible to develop a large deep sea lobster industry centered on Georges bank. In fact, speaking in a lighter vein, I think it is necessary to amend these regulations even if only to protect the minister and his staff. I had an opportunity recently

to visit the Nova Scotia fisheries exhibition and there on display was a 28 pound deep sea lobster. When I inquired from a member of the minister's inspection staff where this magnificent lobster had been caught he told me it had been caught on Georges bank and landed at Lunenburg. I said, facetiously of course: "No doubt you will lay charges against the captain who landed this lobster because it has been smuggled into Lunenburg and is illegally on display." The officials laughed and said they hoped this would not be necessary. I tell this story to show that lobsters are being caught and that they are being landed.
I wish to make two proposals to the minister: First, that he bring in an amendment to section 31. If he does so, I can assure him it will receive prompt and speedy passage as far as the official opposition is concerned. Second, I would suggest to the minister that he then equip the A. T. Cameron for lobster dragging for a minimum period of 30 days. This would establish the number of pounds of deep sea lobsters our fishermen could hope to catch and might lead to the establishment of a new industry in Nova Scotia.
I could mention many other items which are also of vital importance, but time will not permit. However, I would specifically mention in closing the necessity for restocking our lakes and rivers with trout and salmon. This would be of great benefit to our tourist industry and any expanded program along these lines would assuredly receive the support of members in all parts of the house.
I hope the minister will give us at a later date a more extensive report on oyster development and the program the department has for restocking the oyster beds. Perhaps he would advise us whether any thought is being given to the artificial breeding and cultivation of clams. I realize the problem is to conserve the clam spat in its early critical stages. Silting, disease, water changes, predators such as starfish all determine the rate of survival of the clam. However, it is evident the Japanese have done great work in this field, and since the raising of clams could provide a supplementary income to our inshore fishermen I hope the minister will give some thought to developing larger stocks of this type of Canadian shellfish.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the
acting house leader whether we will continue

on Thursday and Friday with the estimates in the order already announced?


Mr. MacNaughl:: We will continue on Thursday and Friday with the estimates as outlined by me last night. That is to say, we
Business of the House
will continue with the Department of Fisheries, then citizenship and immigration, public works and forestry.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, September 24, 1964